E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500

Interview Premendra Mazumder In Conversation with Aruna Vasudev

FIPRESCI-India felicitated its founder Ms. Aruna 1957 or 58. I was just out of college. Then my par- Vasudev on 2nd March 2020 at 12th Bengaluru In- ents moved to New York. And with my little experi- ternational Festival. On 6th March she was hon- ence with TV, I became very much interested in it. So, oured with the 1st Vijaya Mulay Memorial Lifetime when we went to New York, I said this is what I want Achievement Award by the 15th International Film to learn. I got a little job first. And I did do some work. Festival of Thrissur. On 12th March, this interview And then I joined the course at New York University. was recorded at Thrissur! It was on radio, film and television and each student had to do work in all three. So, when someone else Premendra: This is a big opportunity for the E-CineIn- was making a film you had to be the editor – or some- dia, the quarterly film journal of the FIPRESCI-India, thing in the production. When you were doing a radio to talk to you to know the history of this organization programme someone had to do editing or recording and your contributions for the promotion and devel- or something, with you. You had to do everything in opment of Asian cinema. FIPRESCI-India is basical- every field. So, then in that course, one day I had to ly your child. Please tell us how it all started? edit a film - I had to learn editing a film. And when Aruna: That’s a very moving introduction. Thank you someone made a film, I had to learn to edit it; if I shot so much. It just happened. I’ll tell you how it started. something, someone had to edit it – and so on. I have I had gone to New York when I was just twenty or the clear memory of when I put two shots together twenty-one. I had been working even in college and and then looked at them and I said, oh my God, it’s just after college with the radio - AIR. And then TV amazing! Cinema can do this? I’ve got to learn cin- started in Delhi. I got some small job in TV. They ema! I’ve got to do cinema. When that course was told me to do makeup. I said I don’t know how to do finished, I hung around New York for a little bit doing it. It was in Delhi. That’s where the TV began. It was some odd jobs. Then I was told about the film school Page 1 E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500 in Paris and I told my parents I HAVE to go to Paris. would you want to do an apprenticeship with Alain Resnais who is shooting a film? I said OMG! And I P: How did you shift from Delhi to New York to Paris? got that as an apprentice. I just sat there during the A: My father took us there. My father was an engi- shooting and they told me to do a little this and that, neer, he was in government service. After he retired and basically watch the shooting. When they told me from the government, he was offered this job at the to run some errands, I would do that and just be there United Nations (UN) in New York. So my mother and and just watch. It was such a wonderful experience! I went with him. My sister had already got married and she was living in Delhi. So I went with my par- ents to New York. And then, as I said, somebody told me about the Paris film school and I said, I don’t real- ly like New York. I want to go to Paris.

P: By then you had learnt French?

A: Yes, by that time I had learnt some French. Not that good, but I was managing. When the shooting finished, I went back to classes at IDHEC. And then I got another similar apprenticeship with Claude Chab- rol on film where three directors were doing half-an- P: You already knew French? hour each. And I was so lucky I got the apprenticeship A: I learned a little French, spoke a few words of with him. Can you imagine at that age doing some- French but not much. I went to Paris, and I went to thing so incredible? I mean, how lucky I am! Then the film school. But I got there a bit late because we school was closed for the summer. I went back to had to go back to India with my parents on some fam- New York to my parents. And then I got a job with the ily matters and then I came back to Paris. While in UN in the film department and I started editing. Delhi I got a little scared, I said ‘Paris! I don’t know P: So you started your career as a filmmaker? anybody there. What would I do!’ So I got a little late getting into the school – at that time it was IDHEC A: If you want to direct , you have to know either (Institut des Hautes Etudes Cinematographiqu). They editing or camera. One of these two you’ve GOT to said now I couldn’t join the regular classes. I can at- know. So, I got a job as an editor in the UN itself. That tend clasess but not as a registered student. I said, time UN was making short films, documentaries for okay, fine, never mind. So, I went to all the classes. TV. So, I became an editor. It was a wonderful expe- rience. And I did this for six months or so. And then P: Had you got any introduction? when the series of films the UN was making were A: Yes, to IDHEC by a French friend of my parents finished and my job ended, I told my parents I want in New York. And was given a letter of introduction to go back to Paris - I didn’t really like New York! to Chris Marker by Mary Seton who wrote the book And I luckily got a job as an editor with a company on . After I had been in film school for in Paris, which was an editorial centre. I was editing some time, I rang him up and he said, okay, come short films. Now my French was fluent. I did that for and meet me. And then I told him this story. He said, Page 2 E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500 a year. Then from there, I wrote a letter to Satyajit A: It was an abstract film on the Mughal Empire. I Ray saying, can I come and work with you? Because I don’t even remember it now, but I managed to sell had read that he was doing a film in English. He said, it to the Museum of Modern Art in New York and alright, come! to a distribution company in Bombay. I returned all the money to everybody. And then I said, now what? Then I started editing. Then, what did I do? Oh, then I married my Swedish husband and kept coming to India regularly from Europe

P: Was he from cinema? P: In Hollywood? A: No, he was in the UN and used to be with Swedish A: Hollywood gave him this assignment. He had writ- television. He was in that field. I had met him in New ten the script in Calcutta and he was planning to shoot York and a few years later, I married him and went it in Bengal. So, I came back. By then my parents had back to Europe and to Sweden, but I said, no, I can’t also come back. I dropped my suitcase in our house live in Stockholm! He said, why don’t you learn Swed- in Delhi and the next day I took a train to Calcutta. I ish? I said, I’m not going to learn a language spoken went to meet Satyajit Ray and he said, you know, that by just 6 million people which is the population of film I was going to do in English has been cancelled. Delhi! But I managed to get a contract with Swedish I said, Ohhh no! Why? Because they wanted him to television and made four films for them. Shorts and shoot in Hollywood and he said no. Bengal or India, or no. So, he told me why don’t you go back to Delhi, learn Bengali and come back and work with me? I said, okay! And I was back to Delhi and started doing some work in films here.

P: In which year?

A: Mid-60s. The film Ray had written for Hollywood was what became ET. And the Hollywood studio gave documentaries, in India. Those were shown on Swed- it to who made the film not know- ish TV. Then I decided I’m going to live in Paris. And ing that the script was Ray’s. Later Spielberg came to there in Paris I worked and also got into the Sorbonne Calcutta to apologize to him. He said, they never told to work for a PhD in Indian cinema. Their system is him that it was Ray’s script. Anyway, Ray told me all that you attend some classes for a year, then present that. Then I was in Delhi. I managed to make a short a 50 page synopsis for your thesis, go through an oral film. I asked all my friends to give me 10,000 rupees examination and only THEN can you work on your each. If I sell it, I’ll give the money back, I told them. thesis and present it within five years. So, I did that Through friends and a few other people, I managed to and then my husband got posted to London. I went get just about enough, and I made that film. And then to London for a year, made a documentary for a Ca- luckily, I managed to sell it. nadian organisation on India and then at some point P: What was the film? I said, I can’t live here. I don’t like living in Europe. I’m going back to Delhi. Then we were not divorced. A : Called The Mughals. 10 minutes. On the Mughals. He came to Delhi, I went to London, then finally I P: Was it a documentary? told him I don’t want to live abroad. I’m going to live Page 3 E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500 in India. Then I started working here in Delhi. I did back and take over as the head of Tourism. He said, a film for Doordarshan, little bits of things like that. I know nothing about tourism. She said, never mind, Then I met my Indian husband - it was a long story. you come back and do that. So, he came back to India. Then I married him. He was posted as the Indian Am- That’s where I met him. He was in India for five years. bassador in Nigeria so I went there. And then he got posted to Mexico and then to Nigeria, which was then a very important posting. Nigeria had just discovered money and every country wanted to go there to get a contract. India got the contract to do the railways in Nigeria – if I remember correctly!

Then we came back to Delhi and he took early re- tirement. His deep involvement was with the environ- ment. I was very happy getting back to Delhi. I made P: When you did you do your PhD? two films for Doordarshan when we were in Delhi. And then my daughter was born. I said, no, I’m not A: While I had been in Paris, I had registered for PhD going to make films again, running out of the house at Sorbonne University. To do your PhD there, you and busy all the time. I started writing. And my thesis have to attend some classes. To some extent, not a got published as a book and then I became a writ- regular thing. At the end of the year you do a synopsis er. Writing in so many papers. Regular columns also, of your thesis and then they will examine you, it’s oral first in Youth Times, then a a regular column in the exam. They need your 50 pages paper and then at the Hindustan Times. end of it they tell you whether you can sit for the PhD or not. After all these they said, yes, you can do your PhD. I thought, oh, it’s great.

When I went to live in Nigeria, my husband said, why don’t you write your thesis now? We’re going to be in Nigeria where you have nothing to do. I said okay. I took all my material from Delhi. I went to , I went to Bombay to Calcutta, collected all the material I needed, along with a large number of interviews, P: All on cinema? and sat down in Lagos to write it. A: Only cinema. Hindustan Times gave me lot of P: Was it on censorship? space, cover stories for the Sunday magazine section A: Yes, it was. I spent the year in Nigeria in writing and a fortnightly column. And I worked on the other the thesis. I went to Paris, presented it, got my PhD. books. Then we came back to Delhi. He was an ambassa- P: So, your journey is basically from film editor to a dor, a very senior ambassador. He was much older filmmaker, then film scholar and finally the film critic. than me. And then my thesis was published as a book Then how did you get interested in Asian cinema? called ‘Liberty and License in the Indian Cinema’. A: I also wrote in many other papers and journals - I P: Where was he posted? wrote about 500 articles over the years. Then I was in- A: First he was in New York and then he came back vited by UNESCO in Paris to a UNESCO conference to India because Mrs. Gandhi said he should come on cinema in . I went there and saw Korean cin- Page 4 E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500 ema for the first time. I thought how beautiful this is! P: How did you know Chidananda Dasgupta? How wonderful! I didn’t know Asian cinema at all. A: I had known him for a long time. When I was liv- I got very interested in it. I met many people at that ing in Paris, I went to Bombay just to see the film conference and came back to Delhi. Then I got invit- world, and I met him and Bhagwan Garga - B D Gar- ed to a conference in Hawaii which also supported the ga. And both became my very close friends. Chitu Hawaii . I went to the conference and saw told me: ‘I am so interested in film but don’t know some films in the festival. The director of the festi- how to manage; I started the film society in Calcutta, val was an American lady - Jeanette Paulson. Jeanette and want to work in film, but I can’t give up my job’. and I became very friendly. There were many films Finally, he did give up his job and started writing on from and when I saw these films I was stunned. cinema. He became the editor of Span and was posted Cinema of Asia, which we knew nothing about - none in Delhi. So, I used to see him a lot. And Garga was of us knew I learned that there were only two festivals in Bombay. But I was very closely in touch with both in the world, showing Asian films. One is Hawaii, and of them. Both were much older than me, but they be- the other is Hong Kong. A young Filipino director came very dear friends. I met there said to me, you’re going back via Hong Kong? I had to stop overnight because there was no connecting flight. He said, why don’t you go to meet Hong Kong festival people? I said, okay! He gave me a name. I said whether it is a man or woman? He said, I don’t know. We were all so ignorant at that time! He just knew that there was a festival, but he was a young filmmaker. He didn’t know much. When I stopped in Hong Kong, I went to meet them. The lady was a pro- P: How did your idea of the journal on Asian cinema grammer. And I was so amazed. She said come back get materialized? for the festival. This must have been November or December or so. The festival was in March or April. A: I said to Chidananda Dasgupta, ‘Chitu, let’s start a She said, we can give you part of your airfare and a magazine on Asians cinema. I said that I thought of a hotel room. I said okay. Anyway, I managed to get a name. – Cinemaya’. He said, beautiful name. But how ticket within that amount. That time nobody had any to do it? I worked for two years with the Indian Na- money. I went, and I was blown away. I saw films tional Trust for Art and Cultural Heritage (INTACH). from all over Asia. And I thought how come none of They were doing a series of films for Doordarshan. us know anything about this. This is just not possible. At that time Chitu had left Span and joined INTACH. How can we not know! Chidananda Dasgupta was The scripts were ready but Doordarshan was not then living in Delhi. And I said to him ‘Chitu, let’s do clearing it. Pupul Jayakar was then the chairperson of something with Asian cinema’. INTACH. She was a wonderful person. So was Mapu who was head of INTACH. I took the scripts and went to Doordarshan. An old college friend of mine had just become the Director-General of Doordarshan. I went to see him to take this up with him – at that time I had not yet joined INTACH. I said, why aren’t you clearing this? I was sitting in his office and he called someone and asked him to bring the proposal. Page 5 E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500 Then and there he signed it. Cleared it immediately. I I was working half day with INTACH. She said, what got back to INTACH and said ‘Chitu, it’s on’. Then I a great idea! I said we both working in the morning joined INTACH and I worked with Chitu on a series so let’s meet in the afternoon. This was long back, be- of thirteen films. He directed the first film and I- di fore her husband Dileep become editor of the Times of rected the last film. Thirteen films on environment by India. This was 1983-84. Then Rashmi Doraiswamy different directors – Rajiv Mehrotra, Pramod Mathur was still doing her MA at JNU. She said she wanted to etc. Then Chitu said, now I am leaving; I am moving join. I said, come. Her husband, Madan Gopal Singh, to Calcutta. Last two - three films were not yet com- I used to know well. So Latika, Rashmi and I started pleted but people were working on them. Chitu had the magazine and first issue of Cinemaya came out made the first film and I made the final one for that and we did a big launch at India International Centre. series. All were shown on Doordarshan. The Minister of I&B was there. It was a wonderful opening. And then we thought ‘where do we get mon- ey for the next issue?’ We spent all that we had got on the first issue. I was determined that the magazine would be of an international standard, we were not going to compromise! I started talking to old college friends who were now holding high jobs in various companies. I asked some whom I had not even talked to since we finished college! I asked for their support Meanwhile, I was thinking about the magazine. De- to give us advertisements. Some friends helped and termined to do it, I talked to my friend Latika Padga- somehow we managed. Then slowly it just grew. onkar and we got the cover of the magazine prepared with a rough layout. The new Minister of the I&B Ministry called a few people to talk to them about cin- ema industry and so on, in Delhi and I was also called by them - there were not so many people in Delhi involved with cinema in those days. My husband sug- gested that I should take my sample of Cinemaya with me. And after I talked to the Minister about what was happening and what could be done about supporting the cinema, he asked me what I had in mind. I took the sample of my magazine out of my bag and said, P: How long did it go on for? this is what I want to do. He said, ‘what a good idea! A: Sixty issues. Four issues per year starting in 1987. Asian cinema! People don’t know about Asian cine- ma’. I said, that’s why I’m very keen to do it. I told P: How the idea came for organizing the Asian film him I had given it to the National Film Development festival? Corporation. Their chief was in Bombay. I had talked A: After one year of the publication of Cinemaya, to her, given her a sample, and she said yes, we will UNESCO sent me a mail saying ‘you organize a con- give you the money for the first edition but that was ference on Asian cinema’. I knew them from when not happening. He called her up immediately and said I lived in Paris. Their head of the culture, I knew to give us the money. They gave me one lakh for one him. They’d seen Cinemaya and they said me to or- issue. Meanwhile I had talked to Latika Padgaonkar ganize a conference on Asian cinema. I said, why? who was was then working half-day with the UN and Page 6 E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500 They said, you have brought out Cinemaya and you Prakash Sharma. like to encourage Asian cinema. You’re the one who knows most about Asian cinema. So, we organized the conference in Delhi. UN Office in Delhi gave us the money and we held the conference in their hall. We managed to get a little more money because what UNESCO gave us, one thousand dollars, was not enough. And again, my husband said, if you are doing a conference, don’t just call filmmakers and journal- ists. What will come out of it at the end? I said, so what do I do? He said call the institutions, people who can change things in their countries. So, we started to look into whom to invite. Then we invited the head of the film archive in and head of some other institutions. One of them was Kim Dong-Ho, the head of the Korean Motion Picture Corporation in Seoul. Soon after our meeting in Delhi, the Yamagata doc- I had met him casually when I went to there for the umentary festival in Japan said they could do a con- UNESCO conference. I invited him to come for this ference next year in Yamagata. So, we did that in Ya- conference together with other institutional members magata. There I came up with the idea of the name from different Asian countries, a couple of journalists NETPAC: Network for the Promotion of Asian Cine- from Europe, and Jeanette from Hawaii - 25 people ma. Everyone accepted it. And we started NETPAC. from all over Asia and a few from other countries. But From each country at least one person was at the con- mainly one representative from each country. ference. That’s how it all started.

P: So after Cinemaya, your second step was NET- PAC. Then how came the idea of your festival?

A: Then we started showing a few films, the Asian films, just one or two somehow. We weren’t really P: This conference was hosted by your journal Cin- showing that many films, but we said we ought to emaya? show them. We were looking at ways of how we can show some more films from Asia. So, at the 10th anni- A: Yes. Because UNESCO asked us to do it. Then we versary of Cinemaya we did a festival of Asian films. decided to start a mission for the promotion of Asian That was Cinemaya Festival at the India International cinema all over the world. How to do it? Whether we Centre. At the end of it we said, we have got to start would do face to face conferences? Better let’s do our festival now and the India Habitat Centre in Delhi some Asian cinema programmes in all other coun- gave us their hall free. Then from 11th anniversary of tries. People from every single Asian country said that Cinemaya – in 1999 - we started Cinefan: Festival of is a great idea. Carry it forward! Then Indu Shrikent Asian Cinema. also joined us who, over the years, beautifully han- dled a lot of the administrative work - and then slowly P: How could you manage to get the money? a couple of others – Shantanu Ganguly and Indrani A: Sheila Dikshit was the Chief Minister. I Bose - and my right-hand man, from the start, Ram went to her and she said okay, take 10 lakhs. Page 7 E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500 How would we be managing in 10 lakhs? But Habitat A: When I had been living in Europe, I met Klaus Centre gave us the entire hall free and they gave us a Eder the directorial head of FIPRESCI. He became central space to have coffee. They made there a café a very good friend. I went to Munich and here and for the delegates. And that’s how it started. We got there to many festivals. I was on the FIPRESCI jury little money from here and there. People gave us ad- at some festivals. I met Derek Malcolm, the FIPRES- vertisements for Cinemaya and then we got a sponsor, CI President, a lot of times at different festivals. That and then we managed.

P: As the Cinefan Festival how long did it run? time when I was still living in Europe and was also A: I think, we ran for six or seven years. But it was coming to India, and they were coming to IFFI in getting too difficult. As everybody from all over the Delhi. At one of the festivals (IFFI) they were sitting world wanted to come. FIPRESCI Jury was there also. there both very sad. They said we’ve been trying and But we could not raise that much of money. Sheila trying to get FIPRESCI in India but it’s just not hap- Dikshit was still there. I again asked for more money. pening. I said, you never said this to me. So, I went But when she left it became impossible to manage. off to meet the Secretary of I&B Ministry. I don’t re- Nevil Tully had been coming to me for two years, member who was there at that time. Then I went to saying, join us, let’s do something together. Finally, DFF and Film Department. I said, how can you not I said, okay, you take over this festival. He said, but have the FIPRESCI in India? Come on, it’s a major only if you stay as the director. So, I stayed for three international organization. They said, okay, send the years as the director. proposal. Derek and Klaus were so happy. That time P: So, it was renamed as Osian’s Cinefan Festival for Derek was the President and Klaus is still running the Asian and . How long it ran? organization. I cleared everything with the ministry and then from the following year FIPRESCI started in A: Five years, I think. After I left, it ran for two years. IFFI. I said Chitu will be President and Chitu said, no, Then Latika Padgaonkar and Indu Shrikent became not me. He had moved to Calcutta by them. He said, the joint directors. I brought in Raman Chawla, then ‘you will be the President’. I said ‘in no way. How Sudhir Tandon also to Osian’s. can I be when you’re there? It has to be you’. So, we P: You also started a Buddhist film festival? made him the President. There was a meeting, three four years later, where I was not present. And then A: That came later. After Osian’s, I started doing my he announced that Aruna will be the next President. I painting and did my painting exhibitions – and organ- said, I’ve got my Cinemaya, I have got my Cinefan, ised a couple of very big international conferences on so I can’t. He said, ‘You made me the President so Asian Cinema. now I am making you the President’. This was how P: How did you think about bringing FIPRESCI in FIPRESCI-India started.

India? Then after long time I started the Buddhist Film Fes- Page 8 E-CineIndia April-June 2020 ISSN: 2582-2500 tival in Delhi. First, I did it in ICCR, then at the Alli- P: Thank you Aruna for spending your precious time ance Francaise, then last year at the National Museum for E-CineIndia. This will be a valued document for but that was not a good idea. I am not sure if I’m the future film scholars. We are highly obliged! going to be able to carry on with it. Getting funding A: So, I’ve told you my entire life story. Hope the for it is not easy but I hope something will work out. readers will enjoy it. Thank you, dear Premendra! Last year we did it with the full support of the Inter- national Buddhist Confederation, so hopefully, it will carry on.

Ms. Aruna Vasudev is the Former President and present Honorary Member of FIPRESCI-India.

Mr. Premendra Mazumder is the Secretary of FIPRESC-India and Editor of E-CineIndia.

Page 9