Second Session, 39th Parliament
official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly
(hansard)
Thursday, March 25, 2010 Afternoon Sitting Volume 12, Number 5
the honourable bill barisoff, speaker
ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)
LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC
Second Session, 39th Parliament
SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Ben Stewart Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Randy Hawes Minister of Environment...... Hon. Barry Penner Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. John Yap Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Labour...... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Kash Heed Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Iain Black Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Shirley Bond
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
Leader of the Official Opposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Claire Trevena Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING
Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... John van Dongen Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... John Les Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta North...... Guy Gentner Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Thompson...... Terry Lake Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nechako Lakes...... John Rustad Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Heed, Hon. Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview New Westminster...... Dawn Black Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... Ron Cantelon James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Pat Pimm Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Stephanie Cadieux Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. Kash Heed Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart
Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1
CONTENTS
Thursday, March 25, 2010 Afternoon Sitting
Page
Routine Business
Introductions by Members...... 3703
Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 3703 Bill 6 — Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2010 Hon. C. Hansen
Introductions by Members...... 3704
Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 3704 Victoria West Community Association M. Karagianis Purple Day proclamation and epilepsy awareness N. Letnick B.C. Rural Communities Summit and Enbridge oil pipeline proposal D. Donaldson Multicultural participation in 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games D. Hayer Role of education R. Austin Paralympic athletes and accomplishments of Ina Forrest P. Pimm
Oral Questions...... 3706 B.C. Rail executive compensation C. James Hon. S. Bond B. Ralston L. Krog M. Farnworth Success By 6 program K. Corrigan Hon. M. Polak M. Karagianis Home care fees S. Hammell Hon. K. Falcon S. Simpson
Orders of the Day
Committee of the Whole House...... 3711 Bill 4 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2010 (continued) M. Sather Hon. B. Penner L. Krog Hon. K. Falcon Hon. M. Coell Hon. K. Heed
Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 3716 Bill 4 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2010 Second Reading of Bills...... 3716 Bill 5 — Zero Net Deforestation Act (continued) M. Sather J. Rustad B. Simpson E. Foster S. Fraser H. Lali R. Cantelon D. Donaldson C. Trevena H. Bains Hon. P. Bell
Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room
Committee of Supply...... 3739 Estimates: Ministry of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development (continued) Hon. I. Black J. Kwan K. Corrigan
Point of Order (Chair's Ruling)...... 3753
Committee of Supply...... 3753 Estimates: Ministry of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development (continued) Hon. I. Black K. Corrigan J. Kwan 3703
THURSDAY, MARCH 25, 2010 Introduction and First Reading of Bills The House met at 1:33 p.m. Bill 6 — Finance Statutes [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Amendment Act, 2010
Routine Business Hon. C. Hansen presented a message from His Hon- our the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Finance Introductions by Members Statutes Amendment Act, 2010.
C. James: In the gallery today are two constituents of Hon. C. Hansen: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. mine, two individuals who are very active in the James Bay community and in the James Bay New Horizons. I Motion approved. would like the House to please welcome Irene Paris and Aileen Miller here today. Hon. C. Hansen: I am pleased to introduce the Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2010, which amends a number J. Les: I have four visitors with us today in the of statutes administered by the Minister of Finance. Legislature. They areE d Helfrich and Tom Crump with Amendments to the Financial Administration Act the B.C. Care Providers Association, and Derek Morton will enable the issuance of electronic securities, which is and Susan House with the Denominational Health consistent with the direction of current domestic mar- Association. In spite of my voice, I hope the members of ket practice. TheF inancial Institutions Act amendments the House will make them very welcome. will enhance the regulatory tools and framework for fi- nancial institutions, including credit unions, insurance K. Corrigan: I'd like to note that we have some mem- companies and trust companies. bers from the Canadian Union of Public Employees The bill makes a technical amendment to the Home here today, some great activists. Michael Lanier and…. Owner Grant Act. Forms under the act will be approved I need new glasses. I'm not sure I can see who the other by the minister instead of being prescribed in regulation, providing the flexibility to update the forms as program people are, but anyway, members from CUPE. I hope requirements and technologies change. you'll make them welcome. Amendments to the Personal Property Security Act will increase harmonization in personal property se- S. Simpson: In the gallery today we do have a curities law across Canada and between Canada and group of community social service front-line workers, the United States to enable greater efficiency for par- and union representatives with them. They include ties. First, as part of a Canadian uniform law initiative, Don Fodor, Laura Reid, Charlene Linden, Michael British Columbia will adopt the U.S. rule that governs Lanier, Christina Hermakin, Dale Deal and Wanda which jurisdiction's law applies to certain determina- Ratchford. They are here today to meet in Victoria to tions concerning securities interest in intangible and discuss the issue of the municipal pension plan and mobile goods. the lack of funding for that plan. Please make them Secondly, in addition to the act's lengthy process for welcome. removing false or inaccurate registrations from the per- sonal property registry…. It will be shortened by 25 days L. Reid: I have three lovely women just making their and streamlined into a one-step process. way to the gallery. Lynda Turney is visiting from Duncan, The Securities Act amendments will support the har- Rheta Steer is from Victoria, and Terri Cunningham, monization and streamlining of the securities regulatory regime in Canada. The changes will facilitate the regu- many of you will recall, was my ministerial assistant lation of credit-rating organizations, better disclosure when she was in this building. I'd ask you all to please to investors on the sale of mutual funds and Canada's make them welcome. move to international financial reporting standards. [1335] Finally, a technical amendment to the Tobacco Tax Act will add a definition for "cigar," improving con- M. Farnworth: In the gallery and in the precincts sistency between jurisdictions and ensuring that tax today are a group of high school students and their assessment can be enforced. teacher from Archbishop Carney Secondary in my rid- I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day ing. Would the House please make them most welcome for second reading at the next sitting of the House after as they observe our proceedings. today. 3704 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
Bill 6, Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2010, intro- Vic West has many very talented and creative artists duced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on as well. On the same weekend some of those artists open orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting their home studios to the public for the Vic West Art of the House after today. Quest studio tour. Another great example of the community spirit is the Hon. K. Falcon: Mr. Speaker, I seek leave to make an Banfield Anti-Ivy League. It got its start in 2004 when introduction. someone noticed that trees in Banfield Park were being strangled by ivy. Every two weeks volunteers span out Mr. Speaker: Proceed. with clippers in hand and free the trees in the forest floor from the ivy invasion. Introductions by Members The Victoria West Community Association also takes an active role speaking out on issues that impact the Hon. K. Falcon: Today in the gallery we have a num- community. They've been vocal leaders in the oppos- ber of members of the Victoria Epilepsy and Parkinson's ition to the mega-yacht marina proposed for Victoria's Centre. I had the opportunity to meet with them earlier Inner Harbour. Now they're working to turn the Vic today. They're here to help promote the important issues West YMCA, which will be closing this year, into the around dealing with issues of epilepsy and the import- Victoria West Community Centre. ance of education and cross-government involvement in I hope members of the House will join me in rec- bringing about awareness of this important illness. ognizing the Victoria West Community Association. Today with us in the gallery we are joined by Miss Lise Thank you very much for all the generous time you give Anthony and her seizure dog, India; Mr. Dan Marple; to help strengthen our community. Miss Marilyn Wilkins; Miss Terri Beaton; Miss Susan Ward, who's a board member; Dr. David Medler, who's PURPLE DAY PROCLAMATION also a board member; Miss Mary Clare Legun, who's AND EPILEPSY AWARENESS a vice-president; Mr. Mike Doman, president of the Epilepsy and Parkinson's Centre; Miss Catriona Johnson, N. Letnick: Mr. Speaker, one in a hundred people has executive director; Miss Lissa Zala, education coordin- epilepsy. That's equivalent to approximately 60 million ator; Laura Yake, the executive director from Abbotsford; people, or 1 percent of the world's population. and Miss Isa Milman, the epilepsy program coordinator. Tomorrow, Friday, March 26, is Epilepsy Awareness I would ask the House to please make all of them Day, also known as Purple Day. On March 26 people welcome. from around the globe are asked to wear purple and spread the word about epilepsy. Statements I would like to read the province's proclamation into (Standing Order 25B) the record. "Whereas Purple Day is a global effort dedicated to promo- victoria west community association ting epilepsy awareness in countries around the world; and whereas Purple Day was founded in 2008 by Cassidy Megan, a nine-year-old girl from Nova Scotia who wanted people with M. Karagianis: Just across the Blue Bridge, Vic West epilepsy to know they weren't alone; and whereas epilepsy is is a vibrant and growing community of people living in the most common serious neurological condition; and whereas new and old houses and condominiums, close by parks, epilepsy is estimated to affect more than 50 million people worldwide, more than 300,000 people in Canada and 40,000 the waterfront, community gardens and the Galloping people in British Columbia; and whereas the public is often Goose Trail. It has long been home to the Songhees unable to recognize common seizure types and to respond people, and their longhouses once covered the shore- with appropriate first aid; and whereas Purple Day will be line from Songhees Point to the north side of the Blue celebrated on March 26 annually during Epilepsy Awareness Month to increase understanding, reduce stigma and improve Bridge. the quality of life for our communities of B.C.; and whereas [1340] the Lieutenant-Governor by and with the advice and consent Today's Vic West is a welcoming place, where folks of the executive council has been pleased to enact Order-in- know their neighbours and community involvement is Council 903 on October 11, 2002. Now know ye that we do these present, proclaim and declare that March 26, 2010, shall a way of life. The Victoria WestC ommunity Association be known as Purple Day for epilepsy awareness in the province is an example of that involvement. of British Columbia." The CAVW is a non-profit community group that Working together, we can enhance public knowledge, operates almost entirely through the hard work of excep- understanding and acceptance of epilepsy and help im- tionally dedicated volunteers. Every year the association prove the quality of life for those affected by it. British hosts popular events, including Vic West Fest with live Columbia remains committed to understanding the music, children's activities, gardening and food. It's the causes and preventing and treating a multitude of brain first Saturday in May. diseases such as epilepsy. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3705
I would like to note the support amongst the mem- Columbia and in Canada: the 21st Winter Olympics bers of this House by the number wearing bracelets, and the 10th winter Paralympic Games. This was also purple shirts, ties and other miscellaneous pieces of Canada's first Paralympics, and both were the most suc- clothing. For those who wish more information, please cessful Olympics in history. call 1-866-EPILEPSY. TheO lympic and Paralympic Games brought together the most diverse representations of culture and ethnicity B.C. RURAL COMMUNITIES SUMMIT AND ever to the province that is proudly known for its divers- ENBRIDGE OIL PIPELINE PROPOSAL ity. Eighty-two nations participated in the 2010 Winter Olympics and 44 countries in the Paralympic Games in D. Donaldson: TheB .C. Rural Communities Summit a celebration of diversity in all of those nations and the took place March 16 to 18 in Port Hardy. This important diversity they brought to British Columbia on February summit brings together municipal leaders, First Nations, 14 in B.C. Place during the Olympic medal presenta- community development practitioners and provincial tion ceremony and the first gold medal ever won by a staff to share best practices, strategies and actions. Canadian on home soil. We had our own five-hour More than 150 people attended, including my oppos- multicultural celebrations. ition colleagues from North Island and Alberni–Pacific We honoured not only visiting athletes but B.C.'s Rim, as well as myself. The organizers did a great job with own incredibly diverse cultures. The packed B.C. Place the agenda. The rural economy is on everyone's mind. enjoyed a performance by aboriginal entertainers, Irish One of the more popular presenters was George dancers, South Asian artists, kung fu experts and the Penfold from Selkirk College, who researches rural Goh Ballet. We also saw bhangra dancers and other economic development. He describes the focus other representatives of almost every multicultural group that provinces place on rural development. His team makes makes up our great province. a number of recommendations for this province, includ- B.C.'s Olympic multicultural day, on February 14, was ing creating a meaningful rural B.C. strategy. a thrilling and an enlightened celebration of our divers- A colleague of Penfold's is Dr. Greg Halseth from the ity and recognition of more than one million residents University of Northern B.C. He recently wrote: "Our re- who are immigrants. search throughout northern B.C. illustrates that people are I also want to recognize the thousands of volunteers very much aware of the disparity between growth and de- from all cultures, including Paul Keenleyside, Silvester velopment. Northern B.C. wants economic development Law, Satpaul Aujla, Daljit Sidhu, Ian MacPherson, Karim that not only creates jobs for northerners, but which also Kassam, Rehana Budhwani, who worked tirelessly to respects people, the environment and the rural and small- make the 2010 games an incredible success. Also, all town quality of life that defines a northern lifestyle." those people of every race and colour and creed who so [1345] proudly carried the Olympic torch, such as Daniel Igali, That is why in a historic occasion earlier this week, Satnam Johal, Shirley Fu, Narinder Subharwal, Saja First Nations across B.C. stood with non–First Nations Noor, Taylor and Jesse Briggs and D.J. Sandhu. and northern community leaders in opposition to the I will ask everyone to join me in thanking all those Enbridge tar sands pipeline. First Nations did their due people who made our Olympics very successful and the diligence over the past five years, analyzing this project most successful in the world and Olympic history. from all aspects. They conclude that the risks outstrip the benefits — the risks of a supertanker oil spill that not ROLE OF EDUCATION only threatens the environment but also the existing and potential jobs that depend on it, like those in the sport- R. Austin: As we celebrate Education Week here in fishing sector. B.C., I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the No one is rejecting the potential of other intensive value of our public education system, recognize the great projects, such as mining, or the importance of sustain- work of the many professionals who work in the system able forestry. But as one northern resident said: "There and challenge all of us to play our part in contributing are some projects that deserve thoughtful consideration, to our kids' education. and there are others that are simply too risky to consider. The poet Yeats once said, "Education is not the filling As long as this project brings oil tankers to our coast, it's of a pail, but the lighting of a fire," an early recognition a non-starter." not only of the complexity of education but also the importance to the individual who then forms part of a MULTICULTURAL PARTICIPATION IN cohesive, socially liberal society. 2010 OLYMPIC AND PARALYMPIC GAMES We often think of education in terms of teaching us how to make a living, but perhaps the more important D. Hayer: Our beautiful province has experienced the role is in teaching us simply how to live. A quick syn- completion of two great events to ever occur in British opsis from around the world shows us the sad state of 3706 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
many countries, from those who suffer continual wars have been the proudest parents on the planet as they got and civil strife, to those who lack the financial resources to watch Ina collect her gold medal. to even send their kids to school, to countries that we I'm so proud of Ina, and I want to wish her best of luck admire. as she continues to represent Canada in the upcoming There is a direct correlation between what these world championships and in future Olympics. Ina is a countries decide or are able to invest in educating their great role model to show others that we can get past our children and their quality of life. Quite aside from the disabilities and go on to excel at whatever we want to put benefits of education to individuals, to families and to our minds to. communities, our public education system is the bed- I'm very sure that our disabled curling is definitely go- rock of a civil society, and it's the crux of our democracy. ing to increase as a result of Canada's appearance and We often leave this important task to paid professionals spectacular finish at this year's Paralympic Games. — our teachers, principals and administrators. But let us Congratulations, Ina, and keep up the great work. not forget those who support them in the school system: the teaching assistants and custodians. Oral Questions It doesn't end there, for we all have a role to play — parents, grandparents, aunties, uncles. Indeed, all B.C. RAIL EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION community members can and should assist our chil- dren through all the teachable moments in life. That can C. James: The cost of the B.C. Rail scandal continues support those who dedicate their lives to working in the to rise. For the past six years the B.C. Liberals have paid formal school system. For at the end of the day, educa- four B.C. Rail executives a total of $8.6 million — $8.6 tion is the transmission of civilization, and this can only million in salary for four people to manage a rail com- be achieved if we all play our part. pany with no trains. Now we learn that two of these executives are getting PARALYMPIC ATHLETES AND a golden handshake worth more than $600,000 at a time ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF INA FORREST when this government is slashing early child care pro- grams, dental visits for children, services for the most P. Pimm: I must say that this last month will go down vulnerable. How can this government possibly justify as the most memorable month in the history of British millions of dollars of waste at B.C. Rail? Columbia. I know that I will remember it for the rest of my life, and I can only imagine how many fond mem- Hon. S. Bond: I'm not sure how the Leader of the ories the athletes of the Olympics and Paralympics will Opposition could characterize an organization that, have. when we became government, in fact was saddled with [1350] debt, was completely out of control in that department. Our Paralympic athletes did all of Canada proud, and To the Leader of the Opposition: let's be clear. This or- I tip my hat to all of the athletes, whether they got to ganization restored and took care of the debt issue with stand on the podium or not. The time, effort and work B.C. Rail and returned to taxpayers in this province $1.5 that it takes to become an athlete of this calibre is an billion. achievement in itself. To put this in perspective, I can tell you that the most Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a supple- memorable time in my life came as a 13-year-old boy, mental. when I got to represent my community at the provincial hockey championships. I can remember that event like C. James: The minister can use all the words she wants, it was yesterday, and all we did was get third place in the but the facts are that there are no trains, that there are province. 40 kilometres of tracks, that it was $1.2 million a year These athletes are the best in Canada, and when they for four staff with no trains. That's $8.6 million over six stand on the podium, they're the best in the world. They years, and now we find out that two of those executives will remember these Olympics forever. will collect another half a million dollars while they say I want to talk, especially, about the Canadian gold- goodbye. medal curling team and one of the members that played My question is to the minister: how can she justify on that team who was born and raised in my hometown spending millions of taxpayer dollars on executive sal- of Fort St. John and now resides in Armstrong, B.C. aries while cutting vital programs for children in this Ina Forrest is the younger sister of Phil Bush, who was province? one of my teammates from that great peewee hockey team that placed third in the province in 1970. I knew Interjections. Ina's family and friends and have always had a special place in my heart for her mother and father, who must Mr. Speaker: Members. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3707
Hon. S. Bond: Let me begin by correcting the Leader Hon. S. Bond: In fact, as I was canvassed in the of the Opposition on one subject. That is the fact that Legislature for several hours the other day, we actually this government is providing record levels of funding for have…. The CFO of B.C. Rail has agreed to continue to early childhood education, for education that in fact the help us with the transition to the ministry. We have not Leader of the Opposition has sat and voted against time yet determined when that position will be wrapped up, after time after time in this Legislature. but we will be making the severance public once we're [1355] aware of when that actual final date will take place. Let's be clear. We inherited a B.C. Rail that was sad- You know, the members opposite are actually experts dled by debt. In fact, this organization has worked in the area of severance. Let's look back to just one of to return $1.5 billion to the taxpayers of British the severances that took place — oh my, in 1990 dol- Columbia. lars. Let's look at the severance paid to Elizabeth Cull. Let's look at this. Elizabeth Cull, to the Leader of the Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a fur- Opposition, received $260,000 in severance for seven ther supplemental. months' work in the Premier's office. That's what we would consider excessive and not defensible. C. James: This minister is trying to defend something [1400] that can't be defended. We see cuts to education. We see cuts to children. We see cuts to people with mental ill- Interjections. ness. And this government paid money — six years of money, four salaries — for a rail company that doesn't Mr. Speaker: Members. even have any trains. That isn't defendable, Minister. So The member has a supplemental. $8.6 million in waste, and there's more to come. Again, my question is to the minister. How much B. Ralston: Well, it's clear the minister would rather more will British Columbians have to put out because of talk about anything other than the severance packages this government's incompetence on B.C. Rail? that her government is about to pay out. In addition to those four executives, B.C. Rail also has Hon. S. Bond: I think the Leader of the Opposition a board of directors who, over the last six years, collect- is the last person that can stand in the House and talk ively have received over $1.5 million in compensation about incompetence when it comes to B.C. Rail. Let's — over $200,000 a year to direct 40 miles of track. Does just look…. the minister think this is good value for money?
Interjections. Hon. S. Bond: I do know this. When an organiza- tion like B.C. Rail can return $1.5 billion to taxpayers in Mr. Speaker: Minister. Minister, take your seat. British Columbia, that's pretty good. Continue, Minister. Interjections. Hon. S. Bond: What cannot be defended is the fact that in one year, under the member opposite's leader- Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. ship, B.C. Rail actually lost $582 million — a direct hit to Continue, Minister. the taxpayers in British Columbia of over half a billion dollars. That can't be defended. Hon. S. Bond: The member opposite well knows after The member opposite wants to laugh? I can tell the our lengthy discussion in the Legislature the other day member opposite this. If the Leader of the Opposition that, in fact, in addition to looking at how they have re- thinks it's amusing to saddle the taxpayers of British turned dollars to the province of British Columbia, this Columbia with half a billion dollars of debt in one year, organization has played a key role in the Pacific gateway that's what can't be defended. strategy. If you look at land sales and the real estate port- folio alone, over $180 million in gross land sales. That's Mr. Speaker: I remind the minister to make her com- production, and that's what's taking place. ments through the Chair. L. Krog: When you add up the salaries of the exec- B. Ralston: The over half-million dollars in sever- utive and probably the most underworked corporate ance covers only two executives at B.C. Rail, President board in the history of the province of British Columbia, and CEO Kevin Mahoney and Executive Vice-President it's over $10 million — money that could have been John Lusney. There is one more executive still waiting spent on the public good in a myriad of ways. Instead, it for a payout. Can the minister explain how much more went into the fat salaries of executives who were riding British Columbians will have to pay? their own personal gravy train. 3708 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
My question to the minister is really very simple. Interjections. How much more are we going to have to pay for Liberal incompetence? Mr. Speaker: Members.
Hon. S. Bond: It may be the member opposites' opin- Interjections. ion that…. They want to diminish the work that's been done, but we're not for one minute going to diminish Mr. Speaker: Members. the fact that $1.5 billion worth of resources has been returned to taxpayers in British Columbia. This organ- M. Farnworth: Let's look at the B.C. Rail record ization has managed a real estate portfolio that has seen on this government. First they said they wouldn't sell gross land sales of over $180 million. They have looked it. Then what did they do? They misled the public and at the dissolution of companies in the province of British sold it. Then what happened? A raid on the Legislature, Columbia. They're managing the Kinder Morgan organ- a court case that has been dragging on for year after ization in terms of that particular project. year after year at a cost of god knows how much. Now We're not going to stand on this side of the House and after ten years we have a railway with a board of - dir take advice from a group that actually saw a bankrupt ectors with no trains, no engines, no steam, not even railway that was in complete disarray when they were the Thomas the Tank, and the directors are being paid in government. $600,000 in severance. How, after ten years, can this government justify Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. spending an additional $600,000, with more to come, for their incompetence when it comes to the B.C. Rail L. Krog: A Monopoly board has more track than B.C. file? Rail. I want to tell the minister that the taxpayers don't enjoy ten million of real dollars wasted on the Monopoly Hon. S. Bond: All I can say to the member opposite game over there. So what's changed? What's changed? is that you managed to take the train and take it right off the tracks during the 1990s. In one year alone under that Interjections. member's leadership — $582 million in debt. In fact, the only outcome, the only measure of success that that side Mr. Speaker: Members. of the House had was how big the bailout was going to be every single year for B.C. Rail. L. Krog: They were worthwhile last year to spend So what has B.C. Rail done? They eliminated B.C. millions of dollars on — over the last six years — on Rail's debt, 600 new railcars to help increase capacity, their exorbitant salaries. Now, suddenly, they're gone. So $8.3 million in new tax revenue for communities across what was it? Was it the $10 million mark that finally con- this province, establishment of $135 million Northern vinced this government to get rid of B.C. Rail? Development Initiative Trust. That's what we've man- aged to do with B.C. Rail. Hon. S. Bond: In fact, what it was, was a commitment in the throne speech in September to review Crown cor- SUCCESS BY 6 PROGRAM porations to look at how we might effectively consider the future. K. Corrigan: Yesterday the Minister of Children and [1405] Families stood in this House and defended the cancel- Unlike the members opposite, we actually think it's lation of the Success By 6 program, and she trotted out worthwhile to go back and to look at those things and a list of alternative government programs and services make changes. where people are supposed to be able to turn, particu- Over the last five years — let's be clear, even though larly pointing out the Parent-Child Mother Goose we've had this discussion for at least three hours in the program. last two days — B.C. Rail has returned in excess of $1.5 Well, apparently this minister has no idea what billion to the taxpayers of British Columbia. That in- she's talking about or what's going on in her ministry, cludes $250 million for B.C. Marine, including Centerm because the Mother Goose programs are run by organ- terminals and Vancouver Wharves. izations that received $411,000 directly from Success By There's no doubt in our mind that, in fact, we inher- 6 in 2008. ited a railway that was bankrupt and in disarray, and this Will the minister admit that it was a horrible mis- organization is in a much better position today than it take to cancel Success By 6 and immediately restore full was when that member was sitting on this side of the funding to this critical program? House. [1410] Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3709
Hon. M. Polak: This year alone we'll be providing By walking away from Success By 6, the B.C. Liberals another $2.5 million grant to Success By 6. Staff will are leaving more dollars on the table in matching grants continue to meet, as I said in the House yesterday, with and in-kind partnership than they're saving. Nice busi- Success By 6 to determine transition of programs and ness case. also to see what opportunities there are to continue sup- It doesn't make any sense. Will the minister fix this porting programs on into out-years. mistake and immediately restore the full funding to The important thing to remember here is that this Success By 6? government is providing supports and services to chil- dren and families in British Columbia like no other Hon. M. Polak: What is hugely important to parents government in B.C. history. As the world of children around this province is the opportunity that they have and families has changed in British Columbia, we've for their children through more than 300 StrongStart responded. We're responding to requests from parents. programs across this province. What they're wanting is This budget alone will provide $26 million to expand all-day kindergarten. Guess what. We're providing it for child care subsidies; $58 million to implement full-day them; they voted against it. kindergarten; and $43 million to StrongStart centres, [1415] 300 of them, all across this province. This year $26 million is allocated in our budget to- ward expanding child care subsidies; $58 million for Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. all-day kindergarten; $43 million for StrongStart cen- tres; and across government this year, in 2010-11, $1.75 K. Corrigan: Yesterday the minister also talked about billion for literacy programs for children — unpreced- helping these programs transition. She said she would ented support, certainly more than was ever provided by help them to transition their programs and to look for that government. opportunities to enhance community capacity-building across the province. Again, the minister has absolutely Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. no idea what she's talking about, because that is exactly what Success By 6 does. M. Karagianis: You know, the minister brags about Will the minister admit this was a shortsighted move all of these programs, programs that are directly sup- and reinstate the funding for Success By 6? ported by the Success By 6 program that is being axed by this government — 50 percent funding cut this year, Hon. M. Polak: Each and every year since 2003 we the program killed next year. have provided grant funding to Success By 6. This year Now, Mr. McKnight of the United Way recognized that — no different. We are providing them with $2½ million. the B.C. Liberals' priorities are wrong on this. The credit We will be meeting with them to discuss programming unions and other community partners recognized that the for further future years. B.C. Liberal priorities are wrong on this. Communities Make no mistake about it. Our investment is un- right across British Columbia recognize this. paralleled when it comes to providing for children and Once again, will the minister do the right thing and families in this province. This year alone we'll spend, commit today to restore the funding to this program for across government, a billion dollars on early childhood this year and 2011 and beyond? development, child care, services for children and youth with special needs. Hon. M. Polak: Let me repeat for the member. This We're bringing in full-day K. We've got StrongStart year Success By 6 will receive a $2½ million grant, like centres, and we're increasing the amount of money for each and every year since 2003, and like each and every subsidies for low- and middle-income families for child year since 2003, they vote against it. care — unparalleled support for children and families, Parents want all-day kindergarten. We supply an in- far more than that government ever gave them. vestment of $58 million to implement it. They vote against it. M. Karagianis: The minister is talking about a $2.5 mil- StrongStart centres — 300 of them across British lion cut to Success By 6 — 50 percent of those funds cut. Columbia. We supply an investment of $43 million. Now, we have right here a quote from Michael They vote against it. McKnight, who is the president of the United Way in It's pretty clear that by investing a billion dollars from the Lower Mainland. He's quoted as saying: "Money is this government this year in early childhood develop- tight, but I guess it depends on what your priority is. In ment, child care, supports for children and youth with this case government chose not to support kids in this special needs, not to mention $1.75 billion across gov- particular way. For the government, it doesn't sound ernment for literacy…. It's very clear that when they like a big deal, but to that mom with two or three kids, it vote against those things, they're the ones that have their means the world." priorities wrong. 3710 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
HOME CARE FEES I can tell you this. It's an inadvertent error. It's unfortu- nate that this kind of thing may happen occasionally in S. Hammell: Yesterday the Minister of Health ac- government. It is being dealt with forthwith, and we will knowledged he had made a mistake in a regulation follow whatever the appropriate legal advice of the min- affecting the cost of seniors home care. He has had 48 istry is. hours to learn this file and the implications of his mis- take. Can the minister tell this House how many seniors Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. have been impacted by his error? S. Simpson: What's appropriate is for seniors not to Hon. K. Falcon: As I mentioned yesterday, there was have to pay for the minister's mistake. This isn't about a mistake made in the drafting of a regulation back in legalese, and it isn't about lawyers. It's about senior cit- February, where the words "qualified client" were not izens on modest incomes who have been overcharged by included in the regulation. That is being dealt with this government because of the minister's mistake. forthwith. In the meantime, we're dealing with those in- Will the minister commit today that every dime of dividuals that have been affected, as is appropriate. that overpayment will be returned to those seniors?
Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Hon. K. Falcon: So I've answered this question now. I think I'm on my third time. I'll explain to the member S. Hammell: A simple question: how many seniors have that there was an inadvertent mistake made in the draft- been overcharged, and when will they be reimbursed? ing of a regulation where the words "qualified client" were inadvertently left off. Hon. K. Falcon: I don't have that figure. The health authorities will have to report back on that. But I think Interjections. the important thing to recognize is that this was an.… Mr. Speaker: Members. Interjections. Hon. K. Falcon: That is being dealt with forthwith. Hon. K. Falcon: Well, I would presume the members But I will say this. I am glad that the member has now want to hear an answer, and I'm trying to give one. showed a new and renewed interest in the issue of sen- iors, because I can tell you, the record of cutting the Interjections. spaces for home support and home care by 31 per- cent was their actual record in the 1990s, whereas we Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister. have added literally thousands of new opportunities as a result of investment and spending going up by 70 Hon. K. Falcon: The inadvertent error was caught, percent. and that is being amended forthwith, as I indicated. All While I recognize that it is unfortunate when an error the health authorities will determine what individuals is made in the drafting of a regulation, I think the im- need to have their situation corrected. portant thing is to recognize the mistake that has been You know, I do think it's important to point out, as made and to make sure that as government we deal with I did yesterday when I spoke to the member, that I am that and correct it as quickly and as forthwithly as pos- proud of the fact that actually, in the area of home care sible. That is exactly what we are doing. and home support, funding levels have increased by 70 percent since 2001. I do always think it's important to [End of question period.] point that out, because of course it was cut by 31 percent by the NDP — in fact, by that member, while she was in Hon. I. Chong: I seek leave to make an introduction. cabinet — during the 1990s. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. S. Simpson: Will the minister commit today that any overpayments by any seniors will be fully reimbursed to Introductions by Members those individuals? Hon. I. Chong: In the gallery today watching ques- Hon. K. Falcon: Again, I want to remind the member tion period, or part of it, were a group of political that the drafting error was an inadvertent mistake that science students from the University of Victoria. They was made. That is being corrected, andI will be guided by are Christina Davidson, Laura MacLeod, Erika Syrotuck, whatever the professional legal advice in the ministry is. Chris Bordeleau, Alexander Biornson, Joshua Kepkay, [1420] Rajpreet Sall, Michelle Moreno, Geordon Omand, Olivia Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3711
Delmore, Nathan Warner, Jose Barrios, Angela McCleery Section 101(4)(d)(ix) is repealed, adding the follow- and Shawn Slavin. I hope the House will make them wel- ing paragraph, (d.1), which says: come so they can see these proceedings further. "(d.1) respecting sampling and analyzing ground water for new or altered wells including, without limitation, the following: Orders of the Day (i) prescribing alterations to a well for the purposes of section 73 (1);" Section 73(1) has only to do with the taking of a sam- Hon. M. de Jong: In Committee A, I call Committee ple and having it analyzed. of Supply — for the information of members, the on- "(ii) prescribing an activity or class of activities for the purposes going estimates of the Ministry of Small Business — and, of section 73 (1); (iii) prescribing circumstances in which a per- in this chamber, continued committee stage debate on son other than the person responsible for a prescribed activity in Bill 4, the Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act. relation to a well is required to comply with a regulation made under section 73 (1);" [1425] Again, those three all only have to do with taking sam- ples and having them analyzed. Committee of the Whole House "(iv) specifying circumstances in which sampling and analyz- ing of ground water is required or is not required; (v) specify- BIll 4 — MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES ing requirements for the timing, collection and quality of ground AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 water samples; (vi) specifying requirements for the storage, hand- (continued) ling and transportation of ground water samples; (vii) specifying the purpose, timing and technical requirements for ground water sample analyses; (viii) specifying the content, frequency and tim- TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on ing of reports and the method and form used for reporting relat- Bill 4; L. Reid in the chair. ing to ground water sampling and analyses." [1430] The committee met at 2:26 p.m. Now, when one compares the list that is being repealed versus what it's being replaced with…. I mean, there are Sections 20 to 22 inclusive approved. a lot of words here, a lot of stuff, but on examination it appears to me that the two lists are quite different. On section 23. I would like to ask the minister…. In the deleted sec- tion, "establishing requirements, procedures, standards, M. Sather: Section 23 amends section 101(4) of the or codes in respect of any aspect of the following" — for Water Act, and this is under "Power to make regulations" example, siting wells…. What happens to that require- — what we're talking about here. Section (4) "is amended ment? I don't see it covered under the new (d.1) by repealing paragraph (d) (ix) and by adding the fol- lowing paragraph." Hon. B. Penner: I'm tempted to ask the member to If we look back at the Water Act, section 4(d), it says: repeat his question along with the preamble, but I know "Without limiting subsection (1) or (2), the Lieutenant Gov- some of us are hoping to go home by six o'clock today. ernor in Council may make regulations for the purposes of Part So I won't. 5 as follows…. I think the member may have skipped over the fact (d) establishing requirements, procedures, standards or codes in respect of any aspect of the following: that…. What he just asked about now, the siting of wells, (i) siting wells; (ii) constructing wells; (iii) installing well pumps; is actually remaining intact. We're not amending that (iv) designing, testing, operating, disinfecting, floodproofing, section. That appears in subsection (d)(i). What we're capping or covering wells; (v) closing or deactivating wells; (vi) doing here is changing (d)(ix) and substituting what is, removing works from wells; (vii) conducting flow tests of wells; (viii) works, including the design, construction, installation, test- admittedly, expanded authority to require various types ing, operation, alteration, maintenance, repair, disinfection or of testing of groundwater. replacement of works relating to the use, testing or monitoring of wells and ground water; (ix) sampling and analyzing ground water M. Sather: Subsection (d)(ix), "sampling and ana- for new or altered wells including, without limitation, specifying (A) the class of the laboratory that may carry out the analyses, lyzing ground water for new or altered wells including, (B) the nature of the analyses, and without limitation, specifying (A) the class…(B) the (C) alterations to a well that require sampling and analyzing nature of the analyses and (C) alterations to a well that of ground water; require sampling…." It's replaced by a longer piece. (x) stopping or controlling the flow of flowing artesian wells; If the minister could just clarify again for me why it (xi) any other activities respecting wells for which the Lieutenant was necessary to make that change. Governor in Council considers it necessary or advisable for pur- poses of the protection of an aquifer or ground water to establish requirements, procedures, standards or codes." Hon. B. Penner: We talked about this prior to noon, Now, of all that, this section amends only the part (ix) about the act previously spelling out that it had to be the of that — having to do with sampling and analyzing driller who conducted water samples. For the reasons I groundwater, etc., as I've previously read. gave prior to noon, it was believed that we'd be better 3712 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
enabling others to do the sampling of water as well — should the Legislature see fit to approve it, have yet to perhaps the pump operator or installer or geoscientist be drafted. who is doing the flow testing. If we're not going to have the driller doing it anymore, M. Sather: All right. But it seems to me from what the we wanted to specify here who should be, giving us the minister has said so far that the way that the water sam- authority to indicate who should be doing this work as ples are being taken, I guess, handled and analyzed is described in this new subsection. not satisfactory. He talks about more specificity. Maybe In addition, we wanted to make sure that we were not he could clarify what he means by more specificity. just capable of directing who would do the sampling I'm getting the impression that the way things have but then, once the samples were taken, how the sam- been done to this point — in fact, I think he said this — ples would be handled. Based on advice from legislative was not satisfactory. Can the minister tell us a little bit counsel, we're of the view that to give us the specifi- more about the specificity that's now being required? city of authority to direct how the samples are handled is worthwhile pursuing. That's why this amendment is Hon. B. Penner: Yes, it is our view that this would give here today. us improved authority for the handling of water samples. [1435] That's why we're here before the Legislature seeking ap- proval for this amendment — in particular, for purposes M. Sather: Is the minister then contemplating chan- of this discussion, section 23. ges in how water samples are handled? [1440] I think it's self-evident that it's more specific if you Hon. B. Penner: This section would give government just compare it. The member has already read into the the ability to make regulations specifying how the water record at some length comparing the two provisions, samples should be taken and also how they should be the existing versus the proposed new provision, which handled. is apparent on its face that it goes into much more detail about what authorities the Lieutenant-Governor-in- M. Sather: As it stands now, there are no regulations Council may have to require certain things to be done or directions as to how water samples should be taken with those water samples. and handled. It's part of a general trend in legal drafting, particularly when delegating authority to the Lieutenant-Governor- Hon. B. Penner: That's essentially correct, subject in-Council, to draft regulations to be more specific about to what I said earlier about the legislation previously what authorities are being contemplated for that subse- specifying that it would be a driller that would take the quent regulation-making power. samples. I don't want to repeat what I just said with my In the good old days, the member for Nanaimo last answer, what we talked about before noon. In es- may recall, it was kind of an accepted practice. "The sence, yes. Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council may make regula- tions," and it was often about as broad as that. Then they M. Sather: The minister had mentioned before, for started to say: "Well, we can make regulations respecting example, that one would want to be certain that one something about that subject matter without going into wasn't getting a lot of sediment in the sample. That as- much detail." surance or that requirement isn't there as it now stands, Nowadays I've noticed, not just in this act but in many I guess. If you get sediment in, you get sediment because others, that the style of legislative drafting goes into there's no specific ways in legislation or regulation as to much more specificity in terms of what authorities are how to do the sampling now. being given to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council to impose various regulatory requirements. That's just an Hon. B. Penner: The difficulty was, as I indicated a evolution of the law. couple of times already, that the existing version of the I think the legislative drafters pay attention to court act specifies that we have authority about what drillers interpretations from time to time and court verdicts that do in terms of taking samples. We discussed why we I assume suggest to drafters and to us as parliamentar- thought it would be preferable to allow samples to be ians, who are responsible for approving legislation, that taken by the geoscientist who was doing flow testing we should be more specific about what kind of authority or the pump installer. We've passed those sections now, we are granting to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council just prior to noon. to make regulations. This proposed amendment gives us more authority to specify what happens to those samples, how they're M. Sather: Well, maybe it's a really, really good thing handled and the type of testing that will be required. that the government is bringing in this section. I couldn't The regulations that would follow under this section, tell from the interchange we've had whether it's simply Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3713
some sort of housekeeping affair or whether it really ternative: "(b) recommending that an inquest be held for has significant changes attached to it. I guess we would a reason set out in section 18…." This will have the ef- learn that, perhaps, in comparing new regulations to old fect of saying, "recommending, for a reason described in regulations. section 18, whether an inquest should be held," which is I suspect that there are some problems out there with a very different matter than the existing provision. the way water is being handled right now, so if that's the I'm wondering: why are we changing it? I believe case and this is going to lead to correcting that situation, this section is only about three years old, so what's the then I'm all in favour of it. point of changing this now? What circumstances have occurred? What evidence, what information can the Section 23 approved. minister provide to the House?
On section 24. Hon. K. Heed: The words "whether an inquest should be held" were inserted in order to give discretion to the L. Krog: If the minister could just explain the pur- coroner with respect to that inquest, and criteria have pose of this section. been laid out in a subsequent section with respect to that.
Hon. K. Falcon: This is a consequential change to L. Krog: I certainly don't want to repeat what I had the Hospital District Act. We've got some amendments to say during second reading yesterday, but I think the coming up that have to do with just clarifying the fact minister is well aware that there are certainly significant that it's actually the assessment authority that issues no- concerns that have been raised in inquests in the past tice to the hospital districts and not the minister. around the deaths of individuals while in custody. The Coroners Act to some extent, as it exists now, was a re- L. Krog: This may satisfy all the questions I have on sponse to those concerns. the health services amendment. Historically this has ob- [1450] viously fallen to the minister. Is this just a question of What this appears to me to be is very much a step- shifting bureaucratic responsibility, and that's the only ping back from what was seen as quite progressive to a reason for doing this — to save the minister's bacon, situation where now the coroner is going to be given dis- should he some year fail to do his duty and shift it onto cretion. I mean no disrespect to the coroner, the present B.C. Assessment now? officeholder or any other coroner, but we're not talking [1445] about what I would refer to as a significant issue thatI 'm aware of. Hon. K. Falcon: It's basically operationalizing what If the minister can tell this House how many inquests has been in practice for many, many years. that have been held in the last three years wouldn't, in his view, have been necessary if this provision was in Sections 24 to 27 inclusive approved. place, I'd appreciate it.
On section 28. Hon. K. Heed: Six to eight inquests per year.
L. Krog: If the minister could simply explain the pur- L. Krog: The office of the coroner is an old one. The pose of this section. It looks fairly innocent on the face right of the public to know the cause of death of people of it, and I'm sure he's going to tell me that. in the community is something that goes back literally hundreds and hundreds of years. Hon. M. Coell: This indeed is a housekeeping amend- When someone dies in the custody of a peace officer, ment. It provides clearer authority for the existing $35 that obviously raises great concern in the public mind. fee that's charged by the employment standards branch. I think the Solicitor General, who had a very distin- It's basically taking it from the Ministry of Finance and guished career in policing, would be well aware of how moving it into our ministry. important this issue is to the public. What we are essentially being asked to do here to- Sections 28 and 29 approved. day is modify the legislation so that we're going to save the potential costs of six to eight inquests a year, all of On section 30. which involve the death of individuals while in custody. Although I wouldn't wish to suggest that the taxpayers' L. Krog: The existing section provides that after inves- money should be spent freely and without good reason, tigation, "a coroner must promptly provide to the chief it strikes me that…. coroner a signed, written report describing the result of In section 31 the reference is to "natural causes and the investigation and (a) setting out…." This is the al- was not preventable." It seems to me that a coroner with 3714 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
proper evidence in front of them could come to that de- other witnesses, jurors, etc., — who are not included in cision with a very short inquest. We're not talking about that particular cost. days and days of evidence. Of greater significance here is freeing up the capacity So what this section appears to me, again, to be is for the coroner to deal with the backlog of those non- simply a measure in response to something that isn't an mandatory inquests where public interest is significant identifiable problem and all at the same time, I think, in order to allow the coroner time to conduct those in- contributing to public distrust of our police forces, quests in the period of time. which deserve and need our respect in order to effect- So I have addressed the costing issue there, and it is ively police communities. significant, but it's not the primary reason. It is to cre- I guess my question is: was this legislation one that ate capacity to do those non-mandatory inquests where comes from the ministry itself, or did the coroner's of- there's real public interest in those unfortunate deaths. fice request this legislative change? L. Krog: I appreciate the minister's response to my Hon. K. Heed: The request came from the coroner's question and the concerns I'm raising. But unfortunately, office. I'd just like to make a couple of points here. issues of medical attention in jails — including access to The member opposite talked about the fact of main- medication, medical treatment, food that may make a taining public confidence in our systems here in British person in custody sick, emergency response — are not Columbia, ensuring that these matters are investigated going to be dealt with, with the greatest respect, under for public interest. I can tell you that the investigations the provisions of the act as they're proposed, as I see it. involving in-custody deaths will still be fully inves- The fact is that if you have a proper coroner's inquest, tigated by the B.C. Coroners Service, will still be fully there may well be recommendations coming out of investigated by police forces in British Columbia. that inquest as to how you deal with people in custody. We have made amendments to the Police Act with Surely the public interest in being satisfied that in each respect to who those investigations will be done by. and every occasion there was nothing that could have For example, in in-custody deaths, one organization, been done to prevent what is the purpose of this section, one jurisdiction will be investigated by police of an- which is to deal only with deaths due to natural causes or other jurisdiction. Those procedures — although they that weren't preventable…. Surely we're not going to get have been in place with police departments in British those recommendations under this system. Columbia, including the RCMP, for a period of time What's being proposed here is that we're going to — are going to be put into regulation as of April 1 of abandon coroners' inquests where someone comes to this year. So those very extensive investigations will — and I'm not saying this terribly unkindly — a fairly continue. rough and ready determination that Mr. Smith died of [1455] a heart attack in cells. Mr. Smith had a heart condition. When we talk about the cases that are affected here, So be it. Mr. Smith is dead. The public has no interest the five to six inquests per year, there are procedures in this. and processes that take place for every inquest here in But if a proper coroner's inquest is conducted, maybe the province of British Columbia. There's a significant there will be procedures put in place that when Mr. amount of resources from various areas that are required Smith is arrested, there could be checks made and ques- for each and every inquest. So it's not just a matter of the tions asked to determine whether Mr. Smith is at risk coroner or the coroner's representative sitting in as part of having a heart attack because of the particular cir- of the inquest. There are several other people that are re- cumstances under which he arrived, because of the quired for each and every inquest. condition, because of the way he's been treated — all of those things. L. Krog: I'm sorry, but I thought he might have said Surely the public interest is in ensuring that it is very six to eight inquests a year, and I believe he just said five clear and open — that when a person dies in custody, the to six inquests a year. I wonder if he could just clarify reasons for the death are known — and that if any pro- how many inquests a year would fall under this section. cesses or procedures need to be changed or any further or What, if any, has the coroner advised him would be the better attention needs to be paid, it will in fact happen. cost of those inquests? In other words, what money are It's not going to happen if there isn't a coroner's in- we really saving by this provision? quest and there aren't the kinds of recommendations that are provided for in section 4, which gives the au- Hon. K. Heed: There are direct savings, but that's just thority to do and to make recommendations. Surely part of the answer. When we deal with these six to seven those things are important. particular inquests a year, we need other people there [1500] — for example, the pathologists, the toxicologists, the I raise this particularly because the further provi- emergency responders, the sheriffs, the court reporters, sion that's referred to — and this is not specifically in Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3715
this section, but we are, after all, amending section 16 idea today, except that we now find ourselves in some- — talks about making a report to the public under sec- what different fiscal circumstances. tion 69(2). But again, that section in and of itself is not So again to the minister — I'd like him to respond mandatory. It refers to "may," which is permissive. It's specifically to this: why are we changing this section? not mandatory. [1505] Again, if we're going to abandon the existing sec- tion, then we are moving into a regime where it will be Hon. K. Heed: I may repeat myself, but just for the entirely at the discretion of the coroner to make a deter- member opposite's information, the full investigations mination. And even if they're satisfied that it was natural will continue. Those will not stop. We will now have the causes and they have no concerns, no reason to be con- added benefit of ensuring that we create capacity not cerned, the publication of that information will again be only to deal with the matter in an efficient way but to a discretionary matter. deal with other matters that could come forward and, With respect to the minister, I just think, given it's a again, the backlog of the non-mandatory inquests where death-in-custody, that discretion is a bit too broad. I'd public interest is significant. like to hear the minister's comments on that. There are cases where the coroner is required to hold an inquest, where under these circumstances, there's Hon. K. Heed: Although we're referring to section absolutely no public interest whatsoever. Matter of fact, 31, I believe that area is covered in section 32, and I'll family members don't even show up to that. respond to that at this particular time. If, in these cir- Remember, we're talking about discretion, not abso- cumstances, the coroner is not calling an inquest, the lute here. Where there is a high level of public interest, coroner must submit his reasons in writing to the min- there are options that the coroner has, and one is to call ister, and that becomes a public document bearing some an inquest. Again, if the coroner does not call an inquest, of the FOI procedures that we're bound by. he or she must submit their reasons in writing, which will become public. The minister even then has the op- Section 30 approved on division. portunity, I should say, to call an inquest if he or she so desires. On section 31. L. Krog: The difference between a circumstance in L. Krog: This is the meat of the section. It provides which a person dies in a traffic accident, for instance, is that if a person dies in circumstances described in sec- that in a situation specifically covered by this section, tion 3(2)(a), a death while in custody, the chief coroner the state, if you will, has taken complete control over "must direct a coroner to hold an inquest unless any of that person's life and, by extension, obviously, respon- the following apply, in which case the chief coroner may" sibility for it. — in other words, we're permissive — "direct a coroner Once you're in custody, you're in custody. You have to hold an inquest: (a) the coroner is satisfied that (i) lost the ability to control your circumstances. I don't the deceased person's death was due to natural causes mean this unkindly: you are essentially at the whim of and was not preventable, or (ii) there was no meaning- the state. This is why this section was enacted in the first ful connection between the deceased person's death and place — to guarantee that should a death occur, there the nature of the care or supervision received by the per- will be full public disclosure. son while detained or in custody." One of the concerns I have is that…. If you go to sec- So we are now making an exception to an existing tion (2.1), it says: "If the chief coroner decides under practice that this Legislature three years ago thought was subsection (2) of this section that an inquest is not re- a very good idea. Indeed, I may be wrong, but I believe quired, the chief coroner must" — and this is mandatory it received general support. I can't see any great mischief — "(a) report the decision to the minister and include that comes out of having an inquest, and I know the with the report (i) the authority on which the decision is Solicitor General's not going to say that. I mean, if we based, and (ii) the reasons for the decision, (b) subject to have to have an inquest, what possible public mischief subsection (2.2), make the report public, and (c) direct will occur from that? The worst thing that happens is a coroner to make a report in accordance with section that we get a full story as opposed to a brief story of why 16 (1) (a)…." a person died in custody. Now, if you go to (2.2) it says: "Section 69 (2)…ap- I'm led to the conclusion, notwithstanding what the plies for the purposes of a report made under subsection minister says, that this really gets down to a question of (2.1) (b)." economics as opposed to the public's right to know, not- I'm not enough of a lawyer to determine, by the time withstanding the minister's protestations. Because surely you've gone through all that wording, what that exactly if it was good public policy three years ago to make it as means. I know the minister has capable staff beside him, open and as transparent to the public, it's just as good an but it reads to me like…. You make reference to section 3716 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
69(2) that says the coroner "may disclose any report, or Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to perhaps dis- part of a report, made to the chief coroner" to the public cuss this amendment with them, given that I'm certainly or a person whose opinion, etc., in determining whether not aware of any public outcry around this existing sec- or not, considers various things…. tion, save and except from what I've heard from the So in other words, we're making reference to a sec- minister, which is a request strictly from the coroner's tion that says you may disclose, and this section — (2.1) office? — says you must, but it's subject to the section that says [1515] it's subject to section 69. So it sounds to me like it's not mandatory that this report, which I'm not satisfied is the Hon. K. Heed: This is all done on a case-by-case appropriate response, is sufficient to equal an inquest. basis. The discretion is there with the coroner. If there [1510] was public outcry, if I could use that term, or some pub- I read this — and I'm happy to be convinced to the lic dissatisfaction with the decision by the coroner, then contrary — to say that the mandatory reporting is in fact there is an opportunity for either the minister to call really not mandatory at all, that the chief coroner reports for an inquest, or the coroner — and the coroner will will not be made public unless they decide to do so. keep that in mind — can reverse the decision and call an inquest. Hon. K. Heed: With reference to this section, the report to the minister will become public. That is man- Sections 31 and 32 approved on division. datory. So 69(1) does not apply to that particular report, but 69(2) does in that the coroner must take into con- Section 33 approved. sideration to not disclose personal information from that report. Title approved.
L. Krog: Just so I'm clear. What the minister is telling Hon. M. de Jong: I move the committee rise and re- me is that if this section is passed…. There is no inquest. port the bill complete without amendment. There's a report made to the chief coroner, and then that report, subject to some private information, will in every Motion approved. circumstance be made public. The committee rose at 3:18 p.m. Hon. K. Heed: We're talking about two different re- ports. There's a report that will go from the coroner to The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. the chief coroner. The one we're referring to, where it's mandatory and it will become a public document, is Report and a chief coroner's report to the minister. That's the one Third Reading of Bills we're referring to. Bill 4 — Miscellaneous Statutes L. Krog: Can the minister tell the House how that re- Amendment Act, 2010 port will be made public? Is it posted on a website? Is it stuck in a book somewhere? What happens to it? Bill 4, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2010, reported complete without amendment, read a third Hon. K. Heed: We didn't consider that, but I'm ad- time and passed. vised by the acting chief coroner beside me, the deputy chief coroner, that we will post it on the website. Hon. M. de Jong: I call continued second reading on Bill 5. L. Krog: I appreciate the explanation of the Solicitor General. Second Reading of Bills Was there any public consultation with various groups who have looked out for the interests of those in custody Bill 5 — Zero Net Deforestation Act before this section was proposed? (continued)
Hon. K. Heed: There was internal consultation. There M. Sather: Yesterday the member for Nechako Lakes was not external consultation. had challenged me in my assertion that Bill 5, the Zero Net Deforestation Act, does not cover timber-harvesting L. Krog: Does the minister think it appropriate in lands. these circumstances when you have such public inter- est in this section — Pivot Legal Society, other groups…. [L. Reid in the chair.] Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3717
If one looks in the definitions of the bill, "deforesta- I would — particularly if they were lands in the agri- tion" means "the human-induced removal of trees from cultural lands reserve — want to look at that very, very an area of forest land to such an extent that the area is no carefully. longer forest land…" Perhaps those are some of the kinds of things that the So if it's no longer forest land, that doesn't incorpor- minister is talking about with regard to these 750,000 ate our timber-harvesting lands, because they still are hectares. We need to learn more about that to get some forested lands, even when the harvesting takes place. sense of, you know, what the reality is behind this min- Certainly, it's clear, as it was pointed out in the news iscule amount of 750,000 hectares. release from the ministry, that this act does not cover At least within that tiny amount, what is the reality of timber-harvesting lands. what presumably is supposed to happen in order that [1520] this bill can actually, in fact, do something to deal with Yesterday when I finished my speech, I was query- what I think we all recognize in this House is a very, very ing in my own mind as to whether this bill would cover significant problem — the issue of global warming, of private lands. But for the same reason, it would not, be- climate change? cause normally private timber-harvesting lands also [1525] remain forest land. Now, another suggestion has been made that I think As the definition of forest land, of course, means that could hold a lot of promise for a zero net reforestation an area of land that's not been forested since at least initiative or act. That's the suggestion with regard to December 31, 1989…. Now, it might be an exception beetle-killed forests. I know, up in the 100 Mile area, a on private lands with regard to those lands that they've lot of those trees are falling down pretty quickly, within turned into housing developments, perhaps. I'm not two or three years, and there's a need, presumably on sure, but by and large, no. some of those stands, to reforest them. These could be The minister says that they have identified about considered. 750,000 hectares of lands in the province that would First of all, if we're looking at an area that's been be covered under this act. There are 25 million acres logged by a forest company as part of their contract to of timber-harvesting lands, so 750,000 acres is 3 per- replant, that's not what I mean. I mean other lands that cent. We're talking about a very, very small part of the are Crown lands, and it's up to the Crown to take care of lands that could conceivably become and very arguably them. Planting trees on these lands could be considered should become covered by this act in order for it to have additional. Madam Speaker may know that additional- any meaning in terms of doing what its stated intentions ity is important with regard to offsetting emissions. In are, and that's to fight climate change. other words, what that means is it has to be a project that There are some things happening out there on the wouldn't be done in the normal course of affairs. It has land base that may have relevance to this act, and the to be additional to that. minister, perhaps later at third reading, will elucidate This would result in greater carbon storage or seques- more clearly what would take place on the 750,000 hec- tration and might eventually be marketed as credits. The tares and, more importantly, where. To me, I'd like to problem is, though — and that may be a very worthy know where these lands are, and of course, I would like suggestion, and I hope to hear from the minister — to know what is taking place. that it can't be covered under this act because, again, it There are some interesting developments out there. doesn't qualify as deforestation. For example, there's a U.K.-based multinational com- That's something that I hope the minister will look at, pany called Reckitt Benckiser, which is the maker of because he's talked about carbon credits as being one of Lysol household spray and, I guess, a number of other the things that should be involved in dealing with cli- cleaning products. They have taken it upon themselves mate change. So this might be a way. This might be one to purchase land in the Fort St. John and Prince George way where we could extend it. Certainly, there are a lot areas. They are apparently in the process of a large affor- of beetle-killed forests out there right now. Although estation or tree-planting project. They intend to use this some of them probably appear to be regenerating nat- afforestation project to partially or wholly offset their urally quite well, my understanding is that there are a greenhouse gas emissions from the processes that they number of others that are not. use to produce their product. These lands could perhaps be replanted under the I have some questions that I would like to know net deforestation agreement, and it certainly would be about this project or other ones like it. What is the na- much, much larger than the 750,000 hectares the minis- ture of these lands that they're afforesting, that they're ter has mentioned. But unless the government is willing replanting? Are they agricultural lands? Are they lands to amend the bill to allow that to happen, we're stuck that are in the agricultural land reserve? Some questions with some unknown quality of a very small amount. It's would come up around that if they were, but I'm not say- simply not up to the mark in terms of the challenge that ing outright that it wouldn't be a good idea. But certainly we face. 3718 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
We face a huge challenge, and it's an imminent chal- I was in the forest industry back in the '90s when the lenge, with regard to climate change. I would hope that pine beetle epidemic really started to take root in this the government is taking the challenge seriously. This province. During that time, there was a large discussion bill, though, leaves me with some questions about their — and I was privy to some of that discussion — with commitment. Although it sounds good — just if you some of the Forest Service people as well as industry look at the name, it sounds good — the actuality of what people around trying to do a very large burn in a place can be achieved under this act is not significant. called Tweedsmuir Park. So with that, Madam Speaker, I think I will conclude The pine beetle epidemic was something that was my remarks and allow other speakers to have an oppor- throughout the province in very, very small pockets, tunity to address the subject. but there was a large concentration in an area known as Tweedsmuir Park that was really, I guess you could say, J. Rustad: I'm pleased to be able to stand today to have festering. It was a problem. It was starting to grow. There an opportunity to speak to the Zero Net Deforestation was a big concern that you would get a lot of these pine Act. When you think about the act and you look through beetles coming out of the park. the intent of what we're trying to do, there are about There was a proposal to go in and do a big burn, to 6,200 hectares, give or take, on any given year in this go in and do some forest health management within the province that are deforested due to various industrial ac- park to actually eradicate as much of that problem as tivities around the province. could possibly be. It wouldn't have eliminated the pine [1530] beetle, but it might have been able to bring it down to a It's important, I think, to recognize that as we deforest, little bit more manageable state. there's a cumulative effect of that in terms of develop- The unfortunate part is theF orest Service had a beauti- ment that happens. What this bill is designed to do is to ful high…. It was perfect conditions — tinder dry, nice say that when we have some of that activity that goes on stable high conditions — and they went and said: "Let's that creates some deforestation, we are going to have af- light 'er up." Unfortunately, from the top down, from forestation that will offset it so that you'll have a net zero Victoria back down in the '90s, there was a decision that: deforestation for the province. "You know what? We're a little uncomfortable because we think the burn might be too big. Let's wait for condi- [C. Trevena in the chair.] tions to cool down a little bit before we light it up." Later that year the conditions did cool down. They It's the right thing to do when you think about some tried to do the burn, and guess what. It was ineffective. of the areas that we have available in the province. I It's a real shame, because when you look at the damage think there are about 750,000 hectares around the prov- that has been done and you look at all the projections ince that could be reforested, could be afforested, as part and the mapping and watch the pine beetle progress of that. It's a logical step that would go through in our across the province, it's very clear that there was a mas- province at any given time. sive epicentre around Tweedsmuir Park, and it spread Given the fact that in order to meet those targets at out from there. 2015, it takes a couple of years for us to be able to do the There were other pockets, there were other problems, baseline work, to be able to get the process, to get incen- but it's very, very clear that this was…. tives in place to move up to that, this is, once again, a logical process in terms of trying to move through. B. Simpson: You know better than that. I know that the opposition members have said that it should happen instantly. I suppose maybe they are mas- J. Rustad: You know what? The member for Cariboo ters of some magic wand that'll allow you to do things North says I should know better. I've seen the maps, and instantly. We actually have to be able to plan through, I know you've seen the maps. You can tell me…. There's work through, make sure that things are done method- a big pocket here, and it marches out like this. ically and carry forward in a timely manner to make sure that we can meet targets that we're looking for. Deputy Speaker: Member, through the Chair. Some of the previous speakers have talked about the mountain pine beetle and whether some of the pine bee- Interjection. tle areas should have an opportunity for afforestation. I just want to reflect back a little on mountain pine bee- Deputy Speaker: Member, please, through the Chair. tle and, really, what created that problem and why we're looking at that today. As I see the member for Cariboo J. Rustad: I know they don't like to hear this, because North quickly grab a pen to take some notes, I won't be I know they don't like to hear about those failings from saying anything that I haven't said before in this House the 1990s. But it's the reality. You can see the maps. You or in other areas. can see the reality. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3719
A little bit later, a few years later, there was another at- Net Deforestation Act. There have been suggestions tempt. At this point the pine beetle now had got outside coming from the opposition side that we should simply of the park. There were, as the member has said, other plow it all under and replant it. We should — get that — pockets of it around through the province as well. But plow it all under and replant it as quickly as possible. clearly, there was a big problem that had come out of I've got a quote from the member for Cariboo North the park. — I think it was from CBC — where he suggested that There was an attempt at that stage by the forest we should be plowing these areas under and getting companies and some in the ministry to try to focus har- them reforested as quickly as possible. That's irrespon- vesting in that area and to increase harvesting in that sible. There is an enormous amount of opportunity to area to try to deal with the pine beetle epidemic, to try be able to capture value from that fibre today. We're try- to do as best they could to get in front and try to slow ing to promote the idea of utilizing some of that fibre down this epidemic. for things like bioenergy, for other types of projects [1535] — which, unfortunately, the members opposite have op- Well, at the time the Green Party happened to have a posed. They don't like independent power. plank in their platform called…. They wanted to reduce Once again, we have some plans coming forward on the annual allowable cut. They thought we were over- forestry, and these guys just don't understand. They don't cutting in the province. The party in power at the time, understand what's important in rural B.C., and they just during the 1990s, was losing support to the Green Party, don't understand how a forest industry actually works. and they didn't want to be seen as increasing their cut at Zero net deforestation and the act that comes for- the time, to drive more support out of their party. ward will generate, for that roughly 6,200 hectares, Clearly, forest decisions were made not based on sci- about 75 jobs a year. Those are important jobs in silvi- ence, not based on the best information available, but culture. It's also just the tip of what we could be doing based purely on political decisions. That's a shame, be- in silviculture. cause when you look at the results in areas like those of One of the big things that I think is important — that the member for Cariboo North — who is continually we're talking about in this act and that we'll be exploring heckling here about the impact that's going to happen in more in the following years, associated with the work his community, the impact that's going to happen in my we're doing with the Western Climate Initiative — is community, the impact that's happening in our forest really around carbon sequestration and the opportunity industry from the pine beetle — it's a shame that more for carbon credits. aggressive action wasn't taken at the time. That is an enormous potential for the forest industry. Back a number of years ago, I had the pleasure of But it's not — as many in the opposition and, certainly, being able to speak in Williams Lake to a group from some of the other groups have suggested — planting a Alberta. The pine beetle had just gone over the moun- tree and having it grow forever. There's an enormous tains and gotten into some of the pine in Alberta, and opportunity, if we can get there, to look at the idea of they had come to see what the epidemic looked like here incremental sequestration — where we get additional in B.C. There were politicians as well as business leaders volume, additional value being grown on an area — and from across the province, and I got a chance to speak to be able to apply credits to that. It could be an enor- with them down at Williams Lake. The one thing I left mous boom for our forest industry. with them…. I said: "Don't make the mistake that we Those are things that I think are worth talking about. did in the 1990s. Be aggressive. Don't be afraid to take Perhaps one day we'll actually be able to get a chance to the public hit, because it's the right thing to do to go have a debate here in the House on that. after it." The other side, of course, is that…. You look at forest Since 2001 when we came into power, we have taken products. There is an enormous potential for what forest those steps. We have gone and taken those steps to in- products could replace. In my riding of Nechako Lakes, crease the harvesting. We're trying to do as much as up in Houston, we're looking at a company there that we can in there. We tried to get out in front and slow it wants to build a refinery. They want to take wood waste, down, but there was a period in about 2003-2004 where turn it into a natural gas and convert that gas into a high- there were so many pine beetles flying at one time that octane fuel. It's an enormous potential for the area. it actually showed up on Doppler radar during the flight [1540] season. It was just massive at that point. It was too late The significant part about that is that every ounce of to be able to make a really serious dent. All we could do that fuel would be driven from a renewable source called was try to minimize the damage as we went. Like I say, our forest products or our fibre. The best part about that that was a real shame. is that all those areas that are hit by the pine beetle…. Here's just another example. Fast-forward to today It doesn't matter what type of wood comes from that now with the pine beetle, and there's the suggestion that type of plant. It doesn't matter if it started to degrade we should consider pine beetle areas as part of the Zero or check, like some of the challenges you can have with 3720 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
pine beetle stands. They can use it all. They can use all What we have heard from the opposition — that is, of that wood. around this act, when we introduced the Wood First Act, It has enormous potential to help feed our forest in- when the policies we're bringing forward…? What have dustry and help diversify our forest industry. Plowing we heard? And do I hear policy? It's silence. All it is, is it under, as has been suggested, for reforestation would rhetoric. They haven't brought forward any ideas at all, simply lose all of that opportunity. It's a real shame that and I know why. It's because they want to go back to the we don't look at that as an opportunity for the future. ideas they had from the 1990s that created such a mess What we're going to be trying to do around the zero in the first place. net deforestation is really around setting that stage, working through, seeing what kinds of incentives we are Interjection. going to need to be able to achieve that — what kinds of positions we're going to have to put in place over a num- J. Rustad: I find it very interesting.O bviously, the mem- ber of years to measure how we can have that success and ber for Cariboo North is getting wound up and wants to ultimately drive the opportunity for some investment. jump into the debate next, asking me to take my seat. But When you look at the greater silviculture issue in the Member, you'll get an opportunity here very shortly. province and at wanting to be able to do some driving Just remember, though, when we're talking about the of incremental silviculture, we are going to need to have Zero Net Deforestation Act, this is truly around what we that incremental investment from sources other than need to do in the province that is the right thing to do to just government. We're going to need to be able to drive make sure that as we are developing land, as commun- those kinds of opportunities, and on a very small scale, ities need to do some development, whether it's mines this is one example of how we can try to work through or pipeline projects — all of which, by the way, you guys and do some of those things. So I'm looking forward oppose…. I have no idea how you'd ever think of trying to how this will develop over the years and to see the to actually fire an economy in this province, since you results of it as it progresses to 2015 and as it goes, ob- oppose everything being proposed. viously, far beyond that. However, as those things are developed in the prov- The other thingI want to touch on briefly with forestry ince, this is an opportunity for us to look at making sure wanders a little bit away from the Zero Net Deforestation we have a net zero impact on our land base. It's the right Act, but when you look at forestry, when you look at plan- thing to do. You can actually go forward, and if a mine ning for the future in forestry, you really need to take the happens to come forward and wants to build…. long-term view. You need to look at all the players and [1545] the issues that we have in the industry, and you have to You know, I find the interesting thing…. They're so be able to make responsible decisions. opposed to a mine, yet a mine is no bigger a footprint Prior to the last election the opposition was calling on than perhaps a large shopping mall. That's it. That's the us to rip up the softwood lumber agreement. Just think, footprint of a mine. You go out and visit a mine…. You Madam Speaker, what that would do to our forest in- go out and visit the area, look at the overall area. That's dustry if we suddenly had thrown another $20 or $30 a the impact. So you're talking about that. When you look metre or perhaps even more in terms of the costs to our at the mall and the parking lot, the wide area, that's what industry. the size is. So when those get developed, the opportun- During the '90s there were a significant number of ity is for us now to be making sure that it has a net zero mills that closed and a lot of jobs lost. I look at it and impact in terms of deforestation. think: "Was that because of the most significant eco- The legislation that's brought forward is very clear. It's nomic downturn that we have faced since the 1930s?" a good logical step. It's a good building stone that will No, it was because the management regime's decisions help us be able to test some theories, to work through in that were brought in place by the opposition, by the NDP, terms of incentives to drive the investment. It's a great during that time took us from being one of the lowest- opportunity for us to be able to look at encouraging other cost producers to one of the highest-cost producers. development without having that negative impact. When you're a high-cost producer, the bottom line You know what, Madam Speaker? It's just the right is that when you're facing any kinds of challenges at thing to do. Do you know what the best part of this is? all, you're the first to go down. You look across North With all the waxing that will go on from the opposition America, you look across at the challenges, and you see about this, they're going to vote for it anyway. And you the evidence of that everywhere you look. It's what is know what? That's fine. I'm happy to see that they will called irresponsible forest management. I've just given get a chance to stand up and vote for this act, because it you, Madam Speaker, a number of decisions on the pine is the right thing to do. beetle, on what they would like to do with the softwood Anyway, Madam Speaker, thank you for this oppor- lumber agreement, on what they did with the high costs tunity, and I look forward to hearing the opposition's in the 1990s. It's unfortunate — very, very unfortunate. debate. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3721
B. Simpson: Madam Speaker, I apologize to you and They cannot buy the petty partisan politics that passes other members of the House that I couldn't control my- for governance in this province. self when the previous member was speaking. I made It has to stop, and this bill typifies that.T wo years ago, a commitment when I was elected here that I wouldn't in 2008, we were promised zero net deforestation as part engage in some of the nonsense that passes for debate of this government's climate change strategy. Two years. in here, but I had a hard time sitting and listening to What do we get two years later? We get two pages, one this. that you could have gotten from Webster's Dictionary If you actually condense what the Parliamentary within about 15 minutes. It's a page of definitions. Secretary for Silviculture had to say about a suppos- The second one — what does it say? Does it give us edly substantive bill, it's: "It's the right thing to do." That plans? Does it give us strategies? Does it give us imple- was it. That was the sum total of the argument. "It's the mentation, action, resources? Nothing. What does it right thing to do." That's really a very interesting way to say? It says that this cabinet and this government will rationalize a bill that is supposed to be of a substantive figure out how to do this at some point in the near future, nature. "It's the right thing to do." and hopefully by 2012, and then by 2015 it supposedly Again, it begs the question of what a parliamentary has done something. secretary does, particularly when you've got silviculture Let me disabuse the members opposite. In that 2008 in your portfolio and you're supposed to know that file speech the government promised that we would get and supposed to bring something substantive into this zero net deforestation. In that speech it said that the not House to deal with that. satisfactorily restocked forest land — in the future, I will What did we get? We got political rhetoric. We got refer to that as NSR; that is, areas of Crown forest land him having to go back to the 1990s and actually present that do not meet the chief forester's requirements for a disingenuous arguments about what happened there free-to-grow status — is actually back to a productive, just to justify himself and make him feel good. healthy forest. As I indicated in my little heckle, we got the ultimate The throne speech in 2008 said that there were in 3Ps that makes it almost impossible for us to govern 700,000 hectares of NSR. In the presentation of this bill, this province or any other western democracy. The ul- the Forest Minister says that that number is actually timate 3P is petty partisan politics. 750,000. We were promised in 2008 explicitly…. This is I'm going to speak about the mountain pine beetle in a direct quote from the speech to the throne: "All for- my response, and I will correct the record. I challenge est land currently identified as not sufficiently restocked the member to bring forward into this House the state- will be replanted and no 'NSR' backlogs will be allowed ment that I supposedly said: "Mow down the forest and to develop in ensuing years." replant it." I don't think you can come into this House I take it that "ensuing years" is kind of '09, 2010, 2011. and make a statement without having a justification and Yet between 2008 and 2010, somehow 50,000 more hec- evidence for that. So I challenge the member to present tares have appeared on NSR. In actual fact, and I'll speak that evidence to me directly. to this in a minute, the forest practices branch, in a recent But I want to talk about the substance of this bill. I report last fall, said that the NSR, the not satisfactorily want to talk about why this bill in its form is wrong. restocked, is over 1.4 million hectares — double what Conceptually it may be right. The member is correct.A s this government is indicating, double what the Forests a concept, zero net deforestation is not wrong. It's laud- Minister is indicating. The Forests Minister will be ac- able. But we must get to a point where we as elected countable for that when we get into estimates. officials actually are engaged substantively in the formu- Why the difference? When his own ministry calls it lation of the laws that govern this province. 1.4 million plus, the minister stands up and puts this bill We should never be caught in this House by bills that forward and says 750,000. That shows you how bankrupt come forward which have not had substantive public de- this government's inventory of our Crown land base is. bate, which have not sustained scrutiny by experts and How can you manage the number one asset of this prov- by stakeholders and by other people who have vested ince when you don't know what you're managing, when interests. We should never have a bill come into this you have that much of a difference that you have to rec- House that catches anybody by surprise or that is a fluff oncile? A full double not satisfactorily restocked. piece of legislation that adds to the cynicism of the elec- Why is that important? You see, this bill is supposed torate that's already out there — never. to somehow make 6,200 hectares of development prop- [1550] erties where you deforest — that backlog — disappear. That's what's wrong with this place. That's what's That's the argument that we've gotten from a couple of wrong with our democracy. We think the electorate the members from the opposite side. doesn't care. Well, they do care, and those who are not I want to know what the math is of 6,200 hectares a voting care enough not to go into a ballot box, for the year being deforested for development against 1.4 mil- most part, because they cannot stand what we offer. lion backlogged NSR. How does that math work out? I 3722 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
think that's a few years of very hard work and substantial The reality, by my calculations…. Again, we're going dollars to address just what already exists in backlog. to canvass this in estimates. We're going to actually flesh No wonder we laughed when the minister brought all these numbers out. That's the way this House is sup- this bill into the House. It is laughable — not in concept posed to work. So it's a forewarning to the minister to but in principle and in timing and in the way the gov- make sure he's got the staff with their calculators out, ernment's planning on going about this. That's what's because we have. laughable. The accruing not satisfactorily restocked, non-re- We've got this increase already, since 2008. The basic coverable losses, potential Crown land base that needs math of forestry — and the Parliamentary Secretary for silviculture treatment in some fashion relative to the Silviculture ought to have known this — is that for every 6,200 hectares that these members are talking about is thousand hectares of forest land, it takes about 100,000 actually in the order of magnitude of about 6.4 million trees to replant that to stocking standards. So for 1,000 hectares. hectares, a hundred thousand trees. If you do the math, Madam Speaker, that's 64 billion Let me walk you through some math to see what the trees. That is gross mismanagement of the province's real problem is and why it is insulting that 6,200 hec- largest asset. We're going to find out in estimates how tares is supposed to solve this problem. First, the backlog much this government doesn't know about how bad it NSR, as I've indicated, by the ministry's own documen- is. tation is 1.4 million hectares. The silviculture contractors will tell you about what [1555] they call the silviculture gap that exists that has grown However, accumulating fire, as it rolls up, was a year over year. I want to talk about planting on the Crown million hectares since 2003. Some of that has been re- land base in a second. But they have been shocked at planted; some has not. The minister has indicated that how much that is accruing, how little work has been he expects more catastrophic fires in the future. We done in silviculture throughout this province. haven't even addressed fully the 2003 fire event.I n many Before I get to that, if you want to talk about zero cases, fire actually sterilizes the soil to the point that you net deforestation, let's talk about the real story, the true cannot get it back for forests for generations, and that's story, of how big the magnitude of that is, what kind of not documented in the ministry's inventory. We don't resources we're talking about, how many trees we're talk- have those figures. ing about. It's not bits and pieces of development. It's the When you talk about deforestation, this government massive lack of investment on the Crown land base. is talking about zero net deforestation related to de- Let's talk about a little project that was in the govern- velopment. Well, what about sterilized forest soils? That's ment's 2008 throne speech as well. In the 2008 throne deforested, and no amount of planting will bring it back speech the Premier, in introducing zero net deforesta- for generations to come. That's not in this calculation. tion, made the following comment. It's about what these Pests and diseases other than mountain pine beetle — members are talking about. Here's the statement. This is where is the sum total of that? We are losing forests to from the throne speech. pest and disease. In particular, we are losing plantations "…large urban afforestation initiative" will be undertaken. "Mil- to pests and disease. Plantations that are on this gov- lions of trees will be planted in backyards, schoolyards, hospital ernment's book, in many cases, as actual free-growing yards, civic parks, campuses, parking lots and other public spaces across British Columbia. Major investments in tree nurseries will forests are not free-growing forests but are dead and do be made under this initiative. Those new trees will help clean our not meet the ministry's requirements and should be on air and 'lock away' carbon dioxide that would otherwise contrib- the NSR backlog, and they're not in the inventory. ute to global warming." The mountain pine beetle. I want to get to the argu- [1600] ments that a couple of members have made here about The Premier, as he's wont to, came up with a wonder- the 1990s, because I think it's important to set the record ful little catchphrase just to make everybody feel warm straight. The mountain pine beetle is now at 14.5 million and fuzzy that he was going to take care of that terrible hectares. Of that, the government's own documentation thing. He called it Trees for Tomorrow. indicates that at least four million of those hectares are Wait a second. You've got future forest ecosystems. what are called non-recoverable losses — so areas that You've got Forests for Tomorrow. You've got net zero de- we won't be able to take fibre off of, areas that will be forestation and this little project, Trees for Tomorrow. standing dead timber, areas that in many case will add That was 2008. The members opposite there I— remem- to this backlog of not satisfactorily restocked. ber some of them saying in their speeches: how could we Then, from 2002 through to about 2007 this gov- be against Trees for Tomorrow? "Oh my god, it's like kill- ernment started playing with how they calculated not ing puppies." What did we get? Here's what happened. satisfactorily restocked. They started taking roads out So far, since 2008 to today, about a million trees have and landings out and various others things out, so they been planted. We're not sure. We don't have a proper downscaled the number. accounting. We have some project lists. But about a mil- Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3723
lion trees have been planted. It said: "Millions of trees the government isn't responding to the challenges con- will be planted." About a million got planted. fronting them. How did they get planted? Grants, Madam Speaker What we've got is — and Parfitt captures it in this one — you know, those cost-sharing things that municipal- sentence: "Commercial tree nurseries across this prov- ities, school districts, hospitals hate because they have to ince are reporting some of the lowest orders for planting bring their money to the table in order to get the money stock ever seen." from the government to do what they need to do any- Now, again, I know we don't want to confuse the way. So it was done in the form of grants. members over there with too many numbers, because What effect has it had? Has it cleaned our air and they're probably not getting numbers from PAB, but locked away carbon dioxide? If so, how much carbon the capacity in our nurseries is 250 million seedlings, a dioxide? How many cars it has taken off the road, equiva- quarter of a billion in seedling capacity in this province. lency — all that fun stuff that the government likes to [1605] tout. We don't know — no reports — but what we do What are the orders? The orders, the sowing requests know…. And I challenge every one of those individ- for 2011 — 126 million. A quarter of a billion in cap- uals over there who likes to just simply take what they acity, 126 million in sowing requests for 2011. What get from PAB and read it in here to go to the webpage happened to the major investments in nurseries? What Trees for Tomorrow. It actually even has a 1-800 num- happened to the millions of trees that were supposed to ber, 1-800-T4T — I don't what those numbers are — and be planted? then the rest of the numbers. By the way, you don't order trees like you order sea Cool — webpage, phone number, everything else. Go monkeys, where you go to a catalogue, they come to you, on the webpage, Members, and this is what you will find you throw them in some water, and — poof! — you get when you bring the webpage up about how to apply for some sea monkeys. You need to know the species. You Trees for Tomorrow: "There is no intake at this time." need to know the genetic characteristics. You have to You go to the next page about how to apply: "There is no collect the seed stock and grow it. You have to test it. intake at this time." You have to change your nurseries to be able to plant How incompetent of a government that it cannot even and grow those into seedlings that can be planted. This get its act together to cover its you-know-what by mak- is significant work. ing sure that the Trees for Tomorrow program, which In planting, 2010 will be the lowest on record at 172 is supposed to be behind this net zero deforestation, is million seedlings with that huge silviculture gap that actually still functioning when they're in this House we've got, and it looks like planting in 2011 is going to be talking about how this wonderful program is going to even lower than that. These nurseries, with this govern- work. They can't even do that. ment gutting forestry as it is and gutting all of the dirt Again, forgive us for finding it laughable that the ministries, are worried about their economic viability, government thinks — faced with the order of mag- yet the Premier promised them in 2008 that they would nitude of Crown land that is being left to waste, that get major investments. is not meeting its obligations…. Even little programs That's why we laugh at bills like this. That's why we to help put trees in urban centres…. They can't even laugh at concepts like this — not because the concepts continue that program. We just simply don't find it themselves are not reasonable and worth exploring but credible that this government puts a bill before us and because this government is not serious about it. They're wants us to trust them that somehow they're going to just not serious about it. They think that if they can put make it happen in 2012 and 2015. They couldn't even a little catchphrase out in front of the public, the public stay the course from 2008. Two years, and the pro- will be placated and they can get on with whatever their gram's gone. business is with their lobbyists and the people who fund Now let's talk about the wonderful investments, ma- their political party. jor investments in nurseries. That's what the government Let me talk a little bit about the order of magnitude said in 2008. There's a recent op-ed that reflects a state- that we should have. Again, this is from the government's ment by Ben Parfitt. This op-ed in the Vancouver Sun own documentation. People should know by now that I reflects what we have heard — the critic for forestry, the don't come in here and make this stuff up. This is from two of them have heard. the government's own documentation. Actually, the Agriculture critic and I visited a nursery I challenge the members over there. Put your PAB in the Kamloops region. We've heard from every nurs- backgrounder aside. Go to the Mountain Pine Beetle ery that they're in dire straits, that they are borderline Task Force on the government's webpage. Go to the in being able to keep their doors open. When we have a 2006 mountain pine beetle action plan. silviculture gap as large as it is in this province, they do On the back page, one of the final pages on that, this not understand. If they had hair, they'd be like me, be- is a direct quote. That was in 2006. The order of magni- cause they're pulling it out. They don't understand why tude is now far, far worse four years later, but in 2006 the 3724 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
Ministry of Forests' senior staff and strategist said the looks at it. It shows you that the biggest investment we following: "Initial assessments suggest that a total of ap- had in this province on the land base was in the 1990s. proximately $800 million to $1 billion will be required With two forest range agreements coming from the late just to mitigate the mountain pine beetle impacts alone." '80s through the '90s, we poured millions of dollars into A billion dollars just for mountain pine beetle alone. the land base, and this government is undermining that What do we get? Some $161 million. It says it right because they didn't continue the programs. in the same document — $161 million for the first Under this government, we have the lowest-ever silvi- four years of Forests for Tomorrow. Now, they did say culture activities — brushing, thinning, commercial that they were going to go to the federal government. spacing, site preparation and using fire as a silviculture Everybody in this House, remember? The federal gov- tool. It's all on the government's own website. A forest ernment was going to give us $100 million a year for ten practices branch PowerPoint presentation from the fall years, etc. of 2009 lays it all out. You don't have to go anywhere. I'll But Mr. Emerson, when he was a Liberal cabinet min- gladly hand a copy to any member on that side of the ister, or a Conservative cabinet minister…. No, wait. He House for their bedtime reading, instead of whatever it was a Liberal cabinet minister at the time. Mr. Emerson is they've got to say tomorrow on the message box. It's said in a very clear, lucid moment in Prince George: all there — a massive deinvestment in the land base. "We're not just going to cut cheques to the province. We They were not smart enough to realize that if they'd need to see the plan." just brought some money to the table and just done We brought that into this House. We actually were some planning, there was a legitimate offer by the given a copy of a document where this government Martin government for that $10 billion program, and was trying to fast-track some discussions with the fed- Prime Minister Harper continued that. But they saw no eral government to cover themselves on the mountain movement from this side, and we lost that opportun- pine beetle, and that submission never went in. In fact, ity. Today we're reminded of the impact of that on First it would be interesting, in estimates, to find out what Nations, and we're reminded of the impact of that on kind of dialogue we're having with the federal govern- our land base in general. ment just now, because we never got the billion dollars Now, the minister spoke in his speech about the fact that was promised from then, let alone matching fund- that they're doing incremental forestry. Another lovely ing from this government. little pet phrase: Forests for Tomorrow. The minister re- That's the order of magnitude we got. Today, in fact, minded us that licensees are obligated by law to replant the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs just issued a press re- where they harvest. But we've got significant issues, and lease and a resolution reminding us of this: the Minister of Forests must know that because there's a "The federal promise was to provide B.C. with $100 million a big shift right now to naturals, not planting. That's why year for ten years to address the mountain pine beetle crisis. The some of the falloff is occurring. The harvesting is low, province agreed to provide 20 percent of this funding, or $20 mil- but some of the falloff in the nurseries is because they're lion a year, to First Nations. Unfortunately, the federal govern- ment chose not to transfer the money to B.C. Instead, it admin- going to natural plantations, natural regrowth, rather istered funds through its own departments, and it only provided than planting. $200 million specifically for mountain pine beetle funding." We have huge health risks out there as well, so the [1610] licensees' obligations, which are called a silviculture lia- Why is this? Because this government never got its act bility, are accruing. You talk to any of the licensees out together to put a plan in front of the federal government there, especially the smaller ones, and they are very, very to show that they were going to match funds, to show nervous about that huge financial liability they're accru- that they had actually done the due diligence, that they ing. It's not a given that the licensees' work on the land knew what those funds were going to do, because the base will actually result in healthy forests. That's not a first $100 million they got, they used to fund provincial given. The fact that they have the legal obligation doesn't Crown obligations, because of cuts that they had done address what's going to happen on the land base. But the in previous budgets. Crown has no such obligation. You don't do that to the federal government, because In 2002 this government absolved itself of actually then what happens? They turn the tap off. You pay for being obligated to manage the Crown forest land other what's provincial, and provincial obligation with prov- than areas that were harvested. Prior to that they were incial money. You take federal money, and you make it obligated to deal with fire, obligated to deal with pest and incremental to it. disease, obligated to deal with areas of the forest that had We have two very good track records of that, two been logged but that contractors hadn't gone and done forest range development agreements from the 1990s. the work on. This government absolved itself of that. If you go back and look at the record, it's available to Therefore, as I've indicated, actual planting has been the public. Hopefully, the Parliamentary Secretary for plummeting. All silviculture activities have been plum- Silviculture actually does its own research this time and meting, and we have this massive silviculture gap. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3725
We have Forests for Tomorrow. In 2008 the promise deforestation, and he got all shocked and awed inside was 60 million seedlings over four years. The program himself and everything else — right? was put in place in 2004. Again, these are real num- Now, climate action in the basement of the Legislature, bers available to the government. It's not that hard to go given the Premier's climate change and all that stuff. and google Forests for Tomorrow. It's all there for you. That's a whole other story, and I don't have time to tell PricewaterhouseCoopers does a little report for you. that. Only about 17.85 million trees have been planted The minister of state lives in the largest clearcut since 2004 — 60 million trees promised, 17.8 million in the province of British Columbia, an area that's realized. Now, I think that's called — what? — a silvi- been denuded by generations of British Columbians. culture gap. If this is how they're going to do zero net Deforestation has been going on forever. Civilizations deforestation, no wonder we laugh on this side. Promise have disappeared because of how they've treated their 60, deliver 17.8. forests, and as I've already indicated, this government is [1615] doing that with our Crown asset. They're not going to achieve 20 million a year, which The greatest greenhouse gas release — andI challenge is what the minister and others have suggested. So now the Minister of State for Climate Action to come with in this throne speech, the minister — or Forests for me out into the bush, and I'll show him — is wood waste Tomorrow — is promising 60 million over the next four from logging practices allowed by this government. In years. That's not going to happen. 2006 and every year since, four million tonnes of carbon One of the interesting things about that — and it's a has been released into the atmosphere from the wood question that we'll have when we explore this in third waste that this government allows as normative logging reading…. One of the interesting questions is that they practices now. That's the biggest thing. use PricewaterhouseCoopers to run that program, not Zero net deforestation, 6,200 hectares? Give me a Ministry of Forests. So why did an accounting firm and break. When you're releasing that much carbon into the a financial management firm get to run silviculture in atmosphere and lack a fire management strategy — cat- this province? Did the government not trust the Forest astrophic fire events. This government has been warned Service to do that? by the Forest Practices Board and the Association of So we don't have the federal money. We have B.C. Forest Professionals to get its act together and start PricewaterhouseCoopers delivering and, I would say, thinking about climate change through the lens of no taking very hefty administrative fees to deliver what is a cold. If you continue to put fires out like a big fire de- minuscule amount. That's a tragedy. partment, what do you do? You lay the table for pests Let's get to the bill quickly, because I know we've got and diseases, and you wipe your forests out with pests speakers who want to get up on our side. and disease. First off, the Liberal argument for the bill — in- They've been told by the professionals to put together dependent of "It's the right thing to do" — is that, first, a strategic fire plan to stop catastrophic events by being it's principled. Well, if it was principled, we would have preventative. What do they do? They gut the preventa- the strategy, the plan, the implementation, the resources, tive programs. They don't fund community wildfire the costs. We'd have it all laid out in front of us. If it plans. They don't have a strategic plan. was principled, that would be it. It wouldn't be: "Trust us. If the Minister of State for Climate Change is really We'll do this by regulation." worried about greenhouse gas emission reductions, it's There's a trap in doing it by regulation. If this is a not this bill. It's go talk to the Minister of Forests and setup for carbon trading in the Pacific Carbon Trust…. say: "Get your act together with respect to fire and wood If that's what this is — and it's a potential that that's what waste." That's what needs to happen. this is — then it's a potential to flow money through to Of course, there's the standing dead pine release. We the lobbyists and to the political sponsors of that party, don't even know what that figure is. where you take the development and you say: "You de- Principled — that's an argument that was made to us. forested there, but we're going to slide you some tax But principled, when we go to the mountain pine bee- incentives. We're going to slide you some goodies to go tle, we get what we got from the member for Nechako and plant some of our Crown forest over here." Lakes: the diatribe about Tweedsmuir. I understand that We don't know that, because it's going to be designed we got it from the Minister of Tourism the other day by regulation behind closed doors within cabinet. And there. I have to leave the legislative precinct under those who's sitting at the table talking to them about it? It's circumstances. not principled. If it was principled, we would know the [1620] details. Well, here's what the Liberal MLA task force in 2001 Secondly, greenhouse gas reductions. The Minister of said to this government were the reasons for the mountain State for Climate Action, when he introduced this yes- pine beetle epidemic being the way it was. I'm going to list terday, said he'd read a National Geographic report on them briefly, but I want you to think about the language. 3726 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
These were only Liberal MLAs on a task force in 2001 say- Pests, fire, cold — those are what control a natural for- ing: "This is why this epidemic is as bad as it is." est ecosystem. Take the cold out, which is what climate First off, they say that a variety of factors have contrib- change has done, and protect the forest from fire, which uted. Cold weather is the major push-back on mountain is what the government continues to do, and you lay the pine beetle, and they said that successions of warm win- table for the pests. The mountain pine beetle is only the ters in the Cariboo dropped mortality rates of mountain canary in the coalmine. Every other pest and disease is pine beetle from 80 percent to less than 10 percent. on the rise in this province, and we do not have the fig- That's why the population grew. ures. We don't know how bad it is. We don't know what Let me see. "The NDP is responsible for climate the future implications of that are. change," is the logic of that, I think. Is that what the gov- My community just got the timber supply analysis for ernment is trying to say? Mind you, they only woke up the go-forward years. It's going to go from just under six to climate change in 2007, so maybe they actually think million cubic metres to, potentially, as low as 720,000 that. cubic metres. That means at least two mills in my com- "The epidemic has further been aggravated by the fact munity are gone forever. The minister and others have that beetle infestations occur in remote areas" — in- even admitted that. accessible. What the member opposite, when he spoke Yet this government, in 2001, when this went from a about Tweedsmuir…. I can again show him the data. normative epidemic to the kind of epidemic…. That was There were burns in Tweedsmuir — single-tree burns, the year we knew it was going to happen, the first ink- small-patch burns — but the industry at the time knew ling of it. What have they done? They still cannot say to that they couldn't go in there and get that. It wasn't com- my community or to Vanderhoof or to Prince George mercially viable, and the scientists at the time said: "For or to other communities what the community-mitigat- goodness' sake, don't haul logs from the remote areas ing factors are going to be. What are they going to do past a healthy forest into town, because" — guess what to mitigate the impact on those communities? Nothing. you do — "you spread the beetle faster." No silviculture response. No community response. There were good reasons that that was not done, but What did this Liberal MLA panel say to the govern- this is their own thing. Beetle infestations are occurring ment, if they want to talk about principles? They said: in remote areas — hard to get to, delays in finding them, "Declare a state of emergency" — this is 2001 — "and get etc. on with the job of figuring out what we do with this ma- "Moreover, many pine beetle infestations are occur- jor catastrophic event." What have they done? They have ring within the boundaries of protected areas." Access not done that. to such areas is limited — no roads. Roads are kind of [1625] necessary to get into these areas. What did Alberta do? The member opposite quoted Next they say: "High ratios of mature-to-immature Alberta. What did Alberta do when they had it come timber in many parts of the province." It takes decades across? They had learned the lessons from us. They did of forest management to allow that to occur. go after it aggressively. They have not gotten control of it, "Finally, it is very difficult to identify current moun- but they went after it aggressively. They initiated a state tain pine beetle infestations." Why? Because the trees of emergency and attracted federal funding, freed up remain the same for the first year. You don't see where some of their own funding and went after it. We never the infestation is in year 1. You see it in year 2. When did that. If this government wants to talk about a prin- you see it, it's already moved on. It's hard to track. cipled approach, try that one. I challenge every one of those members to go onto the Then quickly, a couple of things.L and conversion was Ministry of Forests' mountain pine beetle website. Let the other rationalization. This government has 200,000 them take a look for themselves at the PowerPoint pres- to 300,000 kilometres of resource roads. One of the big- entation that shows mountain pine beetle infestations gest impacts in deforestation on the Crown land base is from the earliest days, from the '50s, right through. They when you build roads and landings. What did the Forest will see that the member opposite, the Parliamentary Practices Board say? "The number, location and owner- Secretary for Silviculture, focused on Tweedsmuir Park, ship status of resource roads are not adequately tracked. is not substantiated by the science and the previous two It's a confusing patchwork of legislation," etc. chief foresters. It is simply petty partisan politics. If we were going to seriously deal with this issue, we'd Again, for some of the folks back over there that don't see the resource roads act come forward, not as a result of understand, pine beetle existed before the NDP. The big- closed-door discussions and the privatization of our re- gest infestation before the NDP was during the Socred source roads to the people who fund this government but era. I guess they were responsible for it back then. Some as a result of public consultation. We would get a good of them were actually associated with that movement at act coming forward. We're not getting that legislation. the time. Pine beetle is endemic. That means it's always The Minister of Forests, when he was Minister of there. Agriculture and Lands, will recall a debate that he and Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3727
I got into, because at one point the minister was talk- conversions, new power lines, utility corridors, and so ing about converting mountain pine beetle stands to on deforest us in the province. agricultural land. How does that work with zero net [1630] deforestation? I don't understand why people wouldn't support this. The debateI got into with him was the fact that in my The member that spoke before me talks about cooper- neck of the woods there's a company from Great Britain ation. Every single forestry initiative that's been brought that's converting agricultural land to forestry at the forward wasn't supported. I don't understand it. same time that the minister was planning on doing the The member forC olumbia River–Revelstoke the other opposite up in Vanderhoof. So how about an integrated day talked about appurtenance, and I totally agree with land plan that actually lets us know what it is we're doing that. I come from a small, forest-based community, and on the land base, on the biggest public asset we have in I've watched as two of the major licensees shut down this province. Do we have it? No. We have a patchwork their mills and the logs went through town. You know, of little bits and pieces. it's not much fun. The member for Columbia River– We have no inventory. We have no finances. And Revelstoke blamed all that on us the other day and that what does this government do in this budget? Guts the we should have done something. Ministry of Forests to the tune of almost another $200 And you what? Those mills closed in the '90s.I t's a fact million and all the land-based ministries to the tune of of industry. It's unfortunate, but to try and lay all that $320 million. We're going to find out how many FTEs, on this government…. It certainly started long before where those FTEs are and what the implications of that we were here. are. Now you get — what? — 6,200 hectares, and: "We're Then I listened with interest as my friend from the going to think about maybe planting some trees some- Cowichan Valley spoke yesterday about the planting and where when you build a strip mall." the facts and the figures and the numbers. The numbers Then if they were deadly serious — and I'll close on are down a little. They're not down a little; they're down this — about zero net deforestation, they would reverse quite a bit, actually. As the member that spoke before me their decisions on private land releases. They would re- said: "Go to the website." verse those decisions. So I did that this morning, as a matter of fact, and I If this government was really genuine, was really prin- looked through the numbers back as far as '93-94 and cipled, really fundamentally believed that this concept went through the numbers through to '08-09 on plant- was a defensible, meaningful concept, they would then ing and harvesting. I would like to say to the members reverse the Jordan River decisions and stop those forested opposite that in '94-95 and '95-96 the numbers were lands from being developed. They would reverse the deci- very impressive. The government of the day, the Forest sions in Port Alberni and give that community the ability Service of the day were doing a good job. They planted to access its forests again. They would stop the wholesale a lot of trees. deforestation of lands that used to be managed as tree Then it started falling off, and it fell off through the farm licences in this province. That would be serious. '90s into the early part of 2001-2002. Then the numbers Conceptually, yeah, it's worth exploring. Let's explore started to pick up again. it together. Let's do that. Table a bill. The minister has But as you go down through those numbers, the num- the ability to go to the Premier and his House Leader ber of hectares that were planted is important, but they're and say: "Okay, look. We want to take a look at this. We also relevant when you look at the number of hectares want to find out how to do this. We want to make it that were harvested. Those numbers go up and down, and meaningful." they go up and down pretty much on a parallel for the Let's do that together, because we can support the hectares that were planted. So you know, all the numbers concept. Let us be engaged in making it happen, but let's are important. All the facts are important, not just the also do the work that I've been asking for since 2005. ones that you can use to support your own argument. Let's work together to figure out what the future of our One of the big things that's happened in the last couple number one industry is. Let's work together to figure of years here, certainly in the last year and a half in the out how we make sure that our number one asset in this forest industry…. I've worked in the forest industry my province, owned by the people of British Columbia, is in entire life. I don't get my experience off a website or from fact being well managed and is in fact being invested in. the tailgate of a pickup. I actually felled trees, drove cat, Let's do that together, and then bring this bill back when ran a skidder. I have a formal education in forestry. I it makes sense. hung a lot of ribbons on a lot of trees, watched the pine beetle epidemic spread throughout the Interior. E. Foster: I'm pleased to rise today to give my support I know that the member that spoke before me and the to Bill 5, the Zero Net Deforestation Act. member for Nechako Lakes talked about Tweedsmuir I'm curious, because I look at this, and it says that Park. I was involved in all of that. I listened to the forest- each year new development, urbanization, agricultural ers that worked for the Ministry of Forests. I talked to a 3728 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
lot of them. I worked with them a lot. I did a lot of pine I don't understand. For the life of me, I couldn't under- beetle surveys. When we talked about the Tweedsmuir stand why they wouldn't. I'm fairly new at this game, so Park situation, the information that those scientists and maybe that's not the way it works. But back again to my those foresters were giving the government just wasn't friend from Columbia River–Revelstoke. You know, let's accepted. do that. Let's put it on the table. Let's discuss it. We've Those decisions were made on a political basis. got somebody who has some constructive amendments. Someone talked about political patronage and political We'll bring them forward and have a look at them. expedience, and that's why those decisions were made. I don't understand why we can't do that. But I haven't And they were wrong. Now you're behind, and we've heard anything over here — just bang, bang, bang all been behind ever since. the time, and it doesn't make any sense to me. If we We need to move forward with these things, and this want to cover these NSR lands, let's come up with some is a bill that does that. We talk about reforestation. We constructive ideas on how to do it. Again, the member talk about the number of trees. Go to the government's that spoke before me talked about NSR land and threw own website. around some pretty large numbers. Well, again, having About two-thirds of British Columbia's 95 million worked in the forest industry, you're required within the hectares are forested. British Columbia has about as four years after you log an area to have it restocked. It's much forest as it did 150 years ago. So we're not losing going really well, actually. ground as badly as the member who spoke before me So you have four years to replant, by law. If you have would have you believe. a fairly good-sized area, you can log in the first year, log As everyone has said, the number of hectares that are in the second year and then plant them both in the third logged by the licensees must be replanted by the licen- year or the fourth year — plant a huge area. So those areas sees. Again, having been in the industry my entire life that have been logged in that first couple of years, that are and in B.C. for the last 26 years, I've watched that hap- still within the legal time limit to be reforested…. And as pen. I've planted trees. I've logged. Up until I took this they are, they're not sufficiently restocked at that time. job on, I had a woodlot. I was a small licensee respon- To add those to that huge number that the member sible for the management of that woodlot, and we were was talking about is again, you know, playing with num- governed by the rules of the Forest Service on what we bers for his own benefit. At any given time there will be do have to do. two or possibly three years of land that come under that [1635] umbrella of NSR that will actually by law be required to You don't log and walk away. As the member that be planted. Those are the kinds of numbers that people spoke before me said: "There's a lot of science in it." You like to use because they're impressive, but they can at don't just go plant some trees. best be misleading. Speaking of science, one of the comments about nat- So again, I just don't understand why this bill's not ural regeneration and so on, just for the members…. being supported. Like I say, it would be nice to hear All these areas with the pine beetle infestation, with the from the other side some constructive ideas as to what lodgepole pine, especially in the northern part of the they might see as positive amendments to the bill. It's a province, the Chilcotin area, where it's predominantly good bill. It supports planting. It supports jobs in silvi- lodgepole pine, where the bug kill has been devastat- culture, clean air. What's wrong with any of this? I don't ing…. Those areas won't regenerate unless they're burnt, understand it. because lodgepole pine seed doesn't germinate unless it's Anyway, that's about all I have to say about this. Again, 180 degrees. It's nature's way of filling in after fires. it baffles me when something like this comes forward. Some of the areas that will burn off will come back, We had, whatever it was, a day's discussion on Wood especially in lodgepole pine. It'll be a carpet. Maybe First, and then when it came to be voted on, everybody there's some prescribed burning we can do and get some stood up and voted for it because it was the right thing of those areas back to growing. to do. Again, this is the right thing to do. Again, to speak to this piece of legislation, I don't There's some good, solid science in it, andI think that understand why…. I'll go back to the comments from I will be optimistic that the members on this side of the the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke the other House from this end down would be happy to get up day. I totally agree with him. Why can't we bring and support this. something forward like this and have constructive dis- [1640] cussion about it? This is a good idea. Why can't we just stand up and talk about: "There are some good ideas S. Fraser: I take my place in second reading debate of here. Why can't we add this to it?" Why do we have to Bill 5. I will actually address the issue that the member spend two days in here throwing rocks back and forth before me, the member for Vernon-Monashee, raised, at each other for something that I would assume every- wondering why we wouldn't support the concept of zero body supports? net deforestation. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3729
The simple answer is…. The member, I think, ex- — in 2008 the Premier made a commitment to zero net plained why he doesn't understand why we might be deforestation. I think that might have been where the cynical or be laughing at the bill when it was introduced. phrase was coined. Two years went by. Devastation on It's because of statements made previously in throne the forest base, record lack of silviculture — just a dev- speeches, etc. — bringing in a children's budget or a astation of every forest community, every forest worker throne speech that revolves around children, and then and every forest mill in the province, pretty much. the result is the highest child poverty in the country for [1645] six years running; or bringing in a seniors budget where With the first statement of the zero net deforestation everything is downloaded subsequently onto seniors in 2008, two years later we have a two- or one-page bill at their great despair; or the housing budget or throne that enshrines it, I guess, after. speech that brings us the highest homelessness rates in On the first page that actually says something, the top the country and in the history of the province. of the page, it goes…. I'll quote here. This is the bold When we see something like this, as members of the new step on zero deforestation, after two years from the opposition, it is our job to be critical of these things and first comments made about this and the promise made to hold the government to account. Certainly, from my by the Premier. "Beginning with a report on the net point of view as an opposition member, I don't believe deforestation within British Columbia for the 2012 cal- anyone disagrees with the values and the premise of endar year…." zero net deforestation. I believe it's long overdue as far So we're making a bold step here. In two years we've as policy is concerned. got a commitment that two years hence there's going to When I saw Bill 5, the Zero Net Deforestation Act, be a report on net deforestation within British Columbia. coming forward, which was a surprise — I did not ex- This is the reason for the response from the opposition, pect it — I was thinking: "Wow, talk about a turnaround." the laughing response for a laughable bill. We've had ten years of Liberal government, and never The bill, the premise, is not the problem. Zero net de- in the history of the province have we seen such gross forestation is the value that I would hope…. Certainly, mismanagement of an industry and of a resource — re- members of the opposition would support. It's the real- cord job losses; mill closures; destruction of the forest ity that this is not true, that this is a falsehood. base and, worse, of the public control of that forest base; We have a previous Finance Minister, a Liberal deregulation; union-busting; taking away the ability of Finance Minister, a couple years ago explain it well. She local communities to have any say over forestry matters said this of her own government. As Finance Minister, and that sort of thing. she claimed that the Liberals were basically spectators So when I saw that the Liberals were coming forward when it came to forestry. with a bill, Zero Net Deforestation Act, I was thinking, So how do spectators bring in a zero net deforestation "Wow, this is going to be a tome. This will be theWar and bill? Well, they make an announcement two years ago. Peace of bills," because to rebuild to the point of zero They bring in basically one page that commits to do- deforestation in the province in the form of a bill is a ing a report in two years. So we've got a four-year span daunting, daunting task. The bill will be….I figured the there. Then if there were any substance, it would be well debate would go on forever, certainly when it comes to after the next election before we'd be able to quantify committee stage, because it will probably be the most anything. lengthy bill in the history of this Legislature. You know what? That could be an election prom- However, I did find the bill, and I actually thought ise, then, like: "We won't bring in the HST." Or that the there was something missing, but it is…. budget is going to be only 465….
An Hon. Member: It is missing. Interjections.
S. Fraser: It is, yeah. It is missing. It's three pages. S. Fraser: Yeah — "We won't sell B.C. Rail. We won't." Well, actually, the third page has on it: "Queen's Printer "We'll honour negotiated contracts." for British Columbia." That's all that's on the third page, That is the nature of the cynicism and the skepti- so it's really two pages. Well, the first page is, I'm afraid, cism from this side of the House, and I hope that goes a few definitions. to explain to the member previously why there is that The problem is that we have what appears to be an- skepticism. It's rightfully targeted at the Liberals, at other slogan — a slogan which we're getting all too used the Forests Minister, at the Premier, because this bill is to from this government. No substance, no meat on the fluff. bones — a slogan. The fact is we don't have really any accurate census How did we get a slogan at this point in time? There is numbers on what's happening on the forest base now a history to this bill. Apparently, for those who remem- anyways. The daunting task of actually moving to zero ber back to 2008 — and some of us were not here; I was net deforestation…. I don't think it's even possible, even 3730 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
if there was the will from the Liberals, because they're these guys, I hope he or she got a bonus, because they actually cutting the resources to the ministry. So they're made a killing, a fortune, at taxpayers' expense. not going to make this possible at all. There's no inten- This has continued until recent times. We know this tion of making this possible. They have no idea what's with Jordan River — 28,000 hectares. It continued. The happening on the forest floor. They have not lived up to Auditor General did a report on that. their obligations for reforestation. For me, as the member for Alberni–Pacific Rim, this Deputy Speaker: May I remind you that we're speak- follows a history of betrayal to forest communities like ing about Bill 5. Port Alberni, where we've lost the entire public control of our forest base. S. Fraser: Yes, Madam Speaker. Thank you for re- The tree farm licences have been around since the '40s. minding me. The 1956 Sloan report. Justice Sloan wrote 800 pages, Bill 5 is the Zero Net Deforestation Act. I would note, and in this, even in '56, explaining the importance to and I apologize for not being clear on this, that the fact control both private and public land through a tree farm is this government has made an art form out of remov- system that will ensure forests forever, forests for perpe- ing public control of our forests. tuity, for all the reasons — even in 1956, recognizing the Therefore, those lands — we'll have to probe this more environmental needs of protecting the forest, not just for in estimates — all those 800 square kilometres of forest workers, not just for forest community and industry, but lands removed from public control…. We have no abil- also even then recognizing the environmental import- ity — the government has no ability — to do anything ance in the '50s. about what's happening on the forest base there. They Every government respected the premises of public can't control reforestation or deforestation on these pri- control of our forests for future generations until this vate lands. They're being carved up as real estate. That's Liberal government — decades. Doesn't matter what the the hypocrisy of this bill. They've given away the ability politics was. Everybody knew it. It's about public inter- of the public to do zero net deforestation in the coastal est, and this government betrayed that public interest as forests in British Columbia. soon as they got in. Madam Speaker, that was the point I was trying to make. [1650] I guess I was taking the long way around, so I apologize In 2003 this government brought in what was called for that. But it is germane to this discussion, this debate, forest revitalization. I hate saying that term, because it second reading of Bill 5. Because making the statement has been the destruction of our public control of the for- that you're going to protect the forest base to balance the est base. It was basically catering to the corporate sector forest afforestation and deforestation…. That ability has that wanted everything. They wanted deregulation. They been taken away by this government on huge tracts of wanted union-busting. They wanted access to all of the land in British Columbia, in my constituency. land within the tree farm licences, and this government There's very little land that's still under public control. gave them everything, and they gave it to them for free. So there is no control here. The Auditor General said They took away the ability to control what's happening when they removed these lands and took away the control on the forest base. to effect something like Bill 5…. They said the minister Just in the coastal region we've lost control. The public forgot to take into account the public interest. has lost control of its 800 square kilometres of our most The public interest? That's what we're here for in this valuable forests — given away. In the Alberni Valley, the place. Bill 5 — legislation is supposed to be about pub- entire region surrounding Alberni, the public control lic interest. So when a government and a minister of was given away to then Weyerhaeuser. No public pro- the Crown forget to take into account the interests of cess — actually contrary to what the Minister of Forests the public, that's a betrayal of this House, of the whole of the day, to what his own staff was saying to do. It was democratic process. devastating. It has been devastating for the industry, for Every government — it doesn't matter whether you're workers, for the environment, for watersheds. left-wing or right-wing — must stand up and protect the All of those lands were then flipped over into private public interest. The Liberal government has taken away managed forest lands. Now, why would a government the ability in my area, a large section of the coast, coastal do that — take away public control that's been there and forests…. This bill can't even apply. They've taken away respected for decades? It was $500,000 donated to the the rights of the public to have any say over their own B.C. Liberals from then Weyerhaeuser. lands. So Weyerhaeuser got hundreds of millions, if not bil- [1655] lions, of benefit at taxpayers' expense, at communities' Jordan River land, a case in point. This is being pot- expense — communities like Port Alberni that built the entially sold as real estate — very valuable real estate. So economy of this province — and it was for half a million how will Bill 5 affect reforestation there? It's on private dollars. Whoever negotiated that for Weyerhaeuser with land. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3731
This government created the Private Managed Forest But it's two pages. That's the kind of commitment, like Land Act, which took away the ability of local govern- the wood-first policy which actually became the shoulda, ments from having any say on these lands. How will woulda, coulda policy, where they made all sorts of an- Bill 5 ever work on any forest lands on the coast? The nouncements around it, but there's no meat to it. little bit that's still left within the tree farm licences…. [1700] I think everything that was part of those tree farm li- So when I saw this bill, the big question that came to cences was removed, the private land that was under my mind is: where's the beef? It's like that old commer- public control. cial that was on television — "Where's the beef?" There's Suggesting that this bill has any basis in reality is ludi- no beef in here. One page of definitions, and then it's crous. The implementation of this bill….I mean, the first got these four little meagre sections in here. It is noth- report is due in two years from now. There's no action. ing more than what my colleague from Port Alberni said There's a report due, and then subsequent to that the — a mere slogan — and if there's one thing this govern- only mention of action or accountability will be in 2015. ment is great at doing, it's making slogans. I don't know if the idea for that was to allow licensees The wood-first policy. They said they were going to re- to see how fast they can liquidate the forests between vitalize the forest industry, make it better, and they came now and the next five years, but whatever happens in my out with nothing except the destruction of the forest in- constituency, in coastal B.C. on the forests…. What we dustry in this province. A couple of Forests Ministers do know is that this bill does not appear to apply, so the ago and the last one and this one are continuing on the bill is irrelevant when it comes to protecting the forest same path. health that the bill says it's designed to do. When you look at section 1 in the bill, which is the Zero net deforestation is a very good idea. This bill is definitions section, they talk about deforestation. But a slogan about that good idea, a slogan with absolutely deforestation doesn't include, actually, the results of the no substance to it. What's clear is this government has pine beetle or other pathogens and disease, and it also brought it forward as another piece of fluff. I would sug- doesn't include forest fires. gest that there is no intention to move this province It could be argued that a failure to adequately predict, towards zero net deforestation. They've taken away the prevent and manage forest fires is human-induced or, in basic mechanisms to do it in a large part of this province, this case, B.C. Liberal–induced. When you look at the certainly in Alberni–Pacific Rim. forest policy in this province, it has been B.C. Liberal– With that, Madam Speaker, I shall take my seat. induced. What we see when we look at it is deliberate mismanagement by this Liberal government now in H. Lali: I rise to take my place in the debate on Bill 5, their third term and a third Minister of Forests. entitled the Zero Net Deforestation Act. The Liberal mismanagement has been identified by The member from PortA lberni, who spoke before me, two main things. One is actually that there is no policy. spoke quite eloquently about the contents of this bill, or For years and years of making pronouncements that what's in this bill. Like the previous member, I was really they're going to do certain things, there's no policy. Then hopeful when the government announced, when the when they do bring in policy, it's punitive. So when they Premier announced a couple years back that he was go- changed the Forest Act — I think it was in 2003 — basic- ing to bring in a zero net deforestation act. ally what it did was give all the power and control to So like all of my colleagues on this side of the House the large companies and take it away from workers and and folks out in British Columbia, especially the folks communities and even government itself. out in the silviculture community, we were all excited. So much of this is actually also left to regulations. We all thought, "Okay, for a change this Liberal govern- For example, an area is afforested when it becomes ment is actually going to put forward some policy that is forest land again as defined in the regulations. Also, going to be meaningful and productive and progressive," deforestation does not include the removal of trees and at the same time, it was going to be positive for not from any area of forest land that is excluded from this only workers but also for communities. definition by regulation. So what about human de- When I saw this bill, I was, needless to say, totally velopment like suburban subdivisions? The definition underwhelmed, like other speakers on this side of the of non-forest land is that it hasn't been forest land House. We were expecting something perhaps 40, 50, since December 31, 1989, or a date set by regulation, 100 pages long that was going to actually be meaning- which means it could be an arbitrary date, a regulation ful. Like this other bill that they put forward — they said set by cabinet. they were going to have a wood-first policy in British Under the definition of afforestation, only non-forest Columbia — it's meagre. There's nothing in it. I'm glad land may be afforested.H ow does this apply to the more that the Minister of Forests is sitting there attentively lis- recently logged areas that have trees planted on it? Or tening to the debate, because if he sits here long enough, how will it apply to wildfire-managed areas that have he might learn something from this side of the House. been reforested naturally? They don't explain that. 3732 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
In section 2 there's a goal regarding the zero net de- That's what this says.I t will be done on an arbitrary basis. forestation. It just simply states that the government Or will it be done on the basis of which large forest com- must achieve this goal by December 31, 2015. But they pany gave the most amount of money to the B.C. Liberal don't talk about interim targets. I mean, how will the Party to fight elections? government actually measure its progress? Who will monitor the government in terms of the job being done? [L. Reid in the chair.] Why has the Ministry of Forests and Range not made this one of its targets in the latest service plan? We know that for the last nine years in this province, The budget comes down. The minister puts forward if you want policy made — it doesn't matter whether it's a service plan. It's not even in it. So where was this forestry or mining or health or any other area — all one commitment to zero net deforestation? Where was has to do is take a wheelbarrow full of money, drop it at the commitment by this Liberal government and this the doorstep of the B.C. Liberal Party and presto, they Liberal minister? It's not even in the service plan as pre- have policy. sented in the budget. That's what's been happening. That's what's been hap- It's just like any other policy where the Premier is pening for nine years under this Liberal government. probably sitting down for a cup of coffee somewhere, Whoever happens to be the biggest supporter of the and he realizes, "Gee, I better do something," and on B.C. Liberal Party gets policy made in this province, and the back of an envelope he decides to put a few notes that's the reality. together, gives it to his ministers and says: "Go make a I have said that to the hon. member across the way. policy." Then they come back with a policy.I t's supposed He can check for those pronouncements. I have said that to be a major policy. repeatedly in the media over the last five years that I've What do they come back with? Two pages. One page, been an MLA re-elected here. as the member from Port Alberni described it, because the first page is all definitions. It's just unreal what this Deputy Speaker: Member. Member. government is doing and is capable of doing. It just goes on and on and on. It just doesn't end with this gov- H. Lali: I'm not afraid to go out there and say it. The ernment and the back-of-the-napkin policies that the hon. member knows that too. Premier always brings forward. [1705] Deputy Speaker: Member, take your seat, please. Section 3 is reporting on the net deforestation. It On a point of order, Minister of Environment. states that the actual program will begin with a report about the net deforestation for the 2012 calendar year Point of Order — 2012. That's two years from now.O ne is led to ask the question: why wasn't this work actually done in the last Hon. B. Penner: I rise on a point of order. All mem- nine years that they've been government? How come? bers of this House are hon. members, and we need to What have they been doing? What have the Premier and remind speakers to be careful about their language. If the cabinet been doing for the last nine years when it someone is insinuating criminal activity, that is a breach comes to forestry? of the rules of this House. I'd like to ask the question again: does this mean that the plan is only to have zero net deforestation be- Deputy Speaker: The member for Fraser-Nicola will tween 2012 and 2015? They haven't explained that. So observe parliamentary language in the House, and he what about all the net deforestation that has actually, as will direct his comments through the Chair. I mentioned, happened over the last nine years and will continue to happen through 2010 and 2011 for the next Debate Continued two years? It just does not actually lead to any kind of answers from this government. H. Lali: Thank you, hon. Speaker, for your caution. Section 4 is the power to make regulations. I'm look- You will recall that my comments were against the B.C. ing at the bill here, and I look at this section. Section 4 Liberal Party, not against any member in the House. I gives the authority to cabinet, under section 4(3)(c), for just want to clarify that. I said the B.C. Liberal Party. the cabinet to "make different regulations for different Anyway, let's move on from that, because the power persons, places, things or transactions." I mean, that's lies with the cabinet to be able to do what it wants for pretty scary. different persons, different places, different things and So what's the cabinet going to do? It's going to make different transactions. It's right here in this bill. So the different regulations for different people, different places. law will not be applied evenly. That's what it says. What may apply in one timber sup- The Liberals have made so many promises over the ply area may not apply in another area of the province. years. Basically, what's happened is that they haven't kept Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3733
up with any of the promises. We have the 2009 Liberal area rather than value, but he's given no exact details at platform that talked about forests for today and tomor- this point about what this would actually look like for row, and at the 2008 TLA, the Truck Loggers Association B.C. and for forest companies. conference, the Premier talked about a seismic shift for Recent media in the Kootenays suggest that compan- forestry in B.C. That's what he said. ies are concerned about increases to their stumpage fees. [1710] It could represent yet another example of the Liberals' There's been a seismic shift, all right. It's been ac- preference to leave control of the public forests in the tually driving the forest industry into the ground in this hands of forest companies and just assume that they will province — the Liberal government — and dozens and actually make decisions that will improve the indus- dozens of companies going out of business. That's what's try. It just doesn't happen that way. The proof is in the happened. pudding. Under the forest revitalization plan in 2002, it talked What we've seen under this government is no com- about how there was a brighter future: "We are re- mitment to actual zero net deforestation in this province. shaping our forest sector to restore the B.C. advantage They haven't done anything for nine years, and all we got to our province's number one industry, both at home is a measly two-page bill here with nothing in it. and abroad." And we know that it is in shambles under We've seen the wholesale abandonment of communities, this government. It's lost its number one place as our the collapse of communities. You look at communities number one sector in this province under this Liberal like Fort St. James and Mackenzie. You look at Lytton, at government because of their deliberate neglect and mis- Lillooet, at Quesnel. You look at a whole bunch of other management of the forestry file. communities all across the province, and they're devas- It continues — the revitalization plan: "These chan- tated by the policies of this Liberal government. ges will help revitalize the economy." Well, we know how I've mentioned the massive job loss. What has hap- it revitalized it. It also talked about generating jobs. I'll pened with the Liberals in this province is the failure tell you how many jobs they generated. They lost 35,000 of their lack of action, the failure of their policies and permanent forestry jobs in this province under that re- the mismanagement and destruction of the forest in- gime over the last nine years — 75 sawmills and pulp dustry in this province. I've already talked about the mills closed by the punitive policies of this government abandonment of communities. There's also the loss of and the deliberate mismanagement. jobs that I've talked about. There are also the massive It also talked about spinoff benefits for commun- mill closures. ities. Well, I'll tell you what's happening in communities. [1715] People are leaving rural British Columbia, and there are There were 75 sawmills, and we now find out that ac- signs out everywhere. People are saying, "Turn off the tually there are 60 of the value-added outfits that have been lights as you leave rural B.C." under this Liberal govern- closed under this government in recent years as well. ment over the last nine years. The 2003 revitalization strategy was actually the Communities are actually struggling to meet their tax gutting of the social contract. They got rid of the ap- rolls, to provide services — water, sewer, garbage and purtenancy clause whereby companies had to keep local other services that they provide. It's because the tax base jobs and local sawmills open in order to access the tim- has shrunk due to depopulation of rural communities ber. I also talked about that before. under the deliberate mismanagement of the forestry There are a whole lot of other things which I'm not file and the wholesale destruction of jobs and sawmills going to go into detail about. But the waste that is be- all throughout the province in rural British Columbia. ing left behind, which could actually have prevented the That's what has happened. small-scale salvage operators from going under…. The Here's what the revitalization plan also says: "…and forest worker safety regulations have been gutted. One provide long-term contributions to our province's stan- year there was a record number of fallers that died in the dard of living." Well, well. Look at that — the standard forest industry. I think it was 42. of living. Incomes under this Liberal government, when There are also the raw log exports. Fully — what is it? compared to the rest of the provinces in Canada, have — 10 percent, if not more, and increasing, the percentage dropped in this province — especially when you go of logs that are leaving raw from this province. to rural British Columbia, in forest-dependent com- There are the land giveaways — the member from munities — as a result of the destruction of the forest Port Alberni talked about it — to companies and just industry by this Liberal government. That's what's hap- turning the public forests into private forests. pened. That's what this plan of theirs, with all these goals, The mismanagement of the pine beetle file andno has done in British Columbia. reforestation thereof. And silviculture? Well, of course You know, on January 13, 2010, the present Minister there's almost a million hectares of forest land sitting va- of Forests made an announcement that the province will cant, which hasn't been reforested under this. It's under be setting up a new pricing system for timber based on the NSR lands. 3734 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
The last pointI 'm going to make is actually that they're the current situation and then take steps within the min- turning their backs on First Nations and their failure to ister's jurisdiction to establish that. actually fix First Nations forest and range agreements. [1720] A report published by the Aboriginal Forest Industries It's simple enough even for the members of the op- Council entitled Strategic Aboriginal Forestry Enterprise position to grasp the concept and understand. Indeed, Roadmap, which actually surveyed 90 First Nations with despite their cynicism…. I appreciate their position. forest and range agreements, ended up finding that de- They've been over there a number of years without much spite the volume allocated to First Nations, there's been hope and with no good ideas. But even the member from a corresponding decrease in forest-related employment Port Alberni has expressed that this is a very good idea. for First Nations, and they're heavily dependent on the I am pleased to hear that they're still able to give these forest industry. messages of hope. And the member for Fraser-Nicola The report also expresses what many First Nations indicated: "We are excited." have been saying to us about these deals — that essen- Well, let me encourage the members opposite. I do tially they're not economically viable and that without know that they will support this bill despite this heavy adequate resources for assistance from this government, weight, this black cloud of cynicism that seems to per- First Nations are stuck selling logs in a buyer-controlled vade their thinking and make it impossible for them to market. And that's what's happening. come forward with some innovative ideas. They will Of course, the last point is the sellout of the softwood support this bill, and enthusiastically. lumber deal. The very next day we're about to win the I want to relate some of my personal experiences as argument in the international court, this Liberal govern- to how this has affected people on Vancouver Island ment cuts a secret deal with Harper and the Americans and how this will be a great clarion call, beacon of hope. and virtually gives up our sovereignty over our own I was fortunate to be a member of the forestry round forests. table. What struck me, despite the condition of the for- So with all the pronouncements, all we got from the est industry…. Liberals in terms of reforestation in this province with Of course, we attribute it entirely to the Forests the zero net deforestation is two pages. One is defin- Minister. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that itions, and one of them has four puny little sections in the housing starts in the U.S., our primary market, fell it and no strategy, no resources, not even any kind of from 2½ million starts to less than half a million. I'm willingness to actually reforest our forests. With that, I sure the fact that their market collapsed by 75 percent take my seat. had absolutely nothing to do with the sudden slowing in demand for timber products and the consequential clos- R. Cantelon: I'm pleased to stand up and represent ing — temporary closing — of sawmills. the constituency of Parksville-Qualicum, in central However, be that what it may, the people I met on Vancouver Island, and support this bill. It's something the forestry round table were continually optimistic, that's been called for among my constituents, who share continually resilient, and they're among the most innov- a concern that the forest industry that has been so vital ative entrepreneurs in the world. That's why I have such to this economy of the province and to the Island may great hope that the forest industry will recover and that be threatened by deforestation. It's a worldwide con- Vancouver Island in particular, that great green island, cern, of course, but it affects the economy on Vancouver will continue to be a source of employment, of hope, of Island to a great extent and personally. jobs in the forest industry for generations to come — I appreciate the members opposite making their com- indeed, for our children and our grandchildren. That's ments. They talk that their duty is indeed to be critics, what this bill establishes and guarantees. and indeed they are critics. They also mention, however, It's more than just about silviculture and jobs in the that their criticism has developed into a form of cyni- lumber industry. One of the aspects, of course, that cism. I would submit that this cynicism is virtually a I heard on the forestry round table was the fact that cloud — a philosophical cloud through which any germ young trees, growing trees, capture carbon from the of an optimistic idea of any originality cannot permeate atmosphere at a much higher rate than older, more ma- and express itself in any kind of public policy. ture trees — which, like ourselves, slow down with age. I think, to the minister's credit, the bill is very, very But growing, vigorous trees are much more efficient in clear, very simple, only on three pages. I think, in pre- capturing carbon dioxide from the air and converting it senting this very clear, unequivocal statement that…. to oxygen. This is going to be of great benefit, and I'm Let me read it. To make it as simple as possible so that sure that we'll be recognized globally for this. anybody could understand it: "The government must This is a statement not just to our own people, not achieve the goal of zero net deforestation within British just to the people of Canada and British Columbia. It's a Columbia by December 31, 2015." Very simple, very statement to the world that this jurisdiction, this prov- clear, and it outlines a very clear path to first evaluate ince, is committed to net zero deforestation. That will Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3735
have a powerful statement that will have a powerful ef- Madam Speaker, I know there are a number of speak- fect as we export lumber products around the world ers behind me, and I wish to give them an opportunity. I — that they can guarantee that the lumber products they know that despite the cynicism through which they will buy from our Vancouver Island are from a place that is fight, in the end they'll stand with us and support this committed to net zero deforestation and a renewable bill. and sustainable forest industry. It's going to be a power- I do want to make one comment, though. The mem- ful statement that goes forward and carries our industry ber for Alberni–Pacific Rim commented about carving forward. up real estate. Well, I'm proud to be a former member of I want to comment that the people on Vancouver the regional district of Nanaimo, which encompasses a Island are very interested in the future of here. It's not large part of the member opposite's constituency, in that just the people who have moved here and retired and they have passed a bylaw prohibiting subdivision of for- are concerned about the ecological benefits of a growing, est land to smaller areas than 100 hectares, which is 200 green forest around them — to them, that's very import- acres. Clearly, it's in their control. ant because, of course, stewardship of the forests involves The member opposite perhaps doesn't know that, al- stewardship of the water, the land and the things that we though he sat on a municipal government and should depend on for living — but also the people who hope to know that it is within the purview of the municipal gov- continue to see their children have a future here. ernment to stop that. Indeed, they are clearly saying: Let me speak for a moment about Harmac Pacific, "Keep the forest lands as forest lands." now Nanaimo Forest Products. I think there's the kernel So they, too, will be very encouraged. I know that Joe of a new generation of entrepreneurs that are going to Stanhope, chair of the regional district, who has been spring forward and create new opportunities for people a longtime advocate and worker in the forest industry, in the forest industry. They decided to take a hard look would be very encouraged to see that we're making a at how they did business, how they operated their busi- clear commitment, making a clear stand that we're go- nesses and decided to get together, both workers and ing to preserve the forests, preserve the future of British union. There's still a union for the workers and the Columbia. With that, I will take my place and heartily management, but no one is looking over their shoulder. endorse this bill. They're doing it themselves. I was fortunate to be invited to take part and give as D. Donaldson: Hon. Speaker, it's a privilege to rise much support as I could in encouraging the Attorney to speak to the second reading of Bill 5, the Zero Net General to give precedence to this order from a point Deforestation Act. I find it a privilege to speak in this of view of jobs — that they should encourage and en- House at any time. I don't take that responsibility lightly. able this venture to go forward so that there could be a I think it's a hallmark of our democracy that a lot of future, in this case, for a pulp mill on Vancouver Island. other nations don't enjoy, so thank you for the privilege I was encouraged that the Attorney General and his staff of doing this. did indeed implore that the judge give first credence to I'm going to provide a critical analysis of this bill. their presentation. Critical analysis means offering up solutions, and I'll Notably absent, however, was anybody from the op- be offering up some solutions to the government that I position. They weren't there. But perhaps somewhere, suggest they take into consideration and use to actually lurking in the fog of cynicism, they couldn't get out and reach the intent of this bill. grasp the idea that there was hope, that there was an- Like the member for Vernon-Monashee, I've worked other way, that there could be a future for Vancouver in the forest sector. I purposely got involved in the for- Island in forestry. est sector so I could understand how it works from the [1725] inside out. I worked with a forest consulting company. I want to tell you that with respect to Harmac Pacific, In fact, I was involved in mountain pine beetle–probing this is going to be a very important concept for them work. It was a great job. Unfortunate — the circum- because fibre supply is absolutely critical to the pulp in- stances around the job. But I did that as well as working dustry, and the pulp industry is an absolute key, pivotal in a pulp mill at one point. part of the forest industry. If we were to lose that, then I have been a reporter, though. I do have journal- there would be no reason to carry on. Virtually, we'd be ism training. One of the things we learn in journalism finished. We'd be shipping logs. training is that if the story you produce creates more The pulp mills demand chips, and chips are created by questions than it answers, then it needs a rewrite. This sawmills. Sawmills, therefore, will have a market for the bill creates more questions than it answers, and I say it surplus chips to their industry in the pulp mill. So it's needs a rewrite. It needs to be taken back and worked on, absolutely critical that we maintain pulp mills, to con- and I'll talk to a few areas that need a rewrite. tinue to offer the opportunity for an integrated forest First of all, the underpinnings of the bill, the object- management system. ives, require information-gathering. They require solid 3736 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
information-gathering. And what's the entity for that? or whether it's food sources the Wet'suwet'en describe It's the Ministry of Forests. What was done recently with for their own people? But there's nobody in the ministry the Ministry of Forests? Well, it was one of the min- that they can get to deal with this matter, and that's a istries targeted in the budget cuts, so the capability to consequence of cutbacks. supply the information required to carry out the object- My suggestion. I know the members on the other side ives of this bill is seriously compromised. have asked for suggestions from us, and here's one: I Let me give an example. The Ministry of Forests was suggest more resources need to be put into this ministry one of the ministries targeted. Its funding is going to be rather than into pet projects. I know that there's a balan- cut by $200 million over the next three years. It was tar- cing act. There's always a balancing act, for sure. geted with other ministries. It bore the brunt of a $320 Right now the balance is way out of whack when you million cut; 60 percent of that was in this ministry. As look at, for example, the number of dollars put into well, there's going to be a cutback in personnel, we know. urban infrastructure compared to reinvestment in rural Unfortunately, this government does not report out on areas. It's not just me saying that. I have a letter here ad- FTEs specific to ministries anymore, so we're not exactly dressed to me from the owner of Woodmere Nursery up sure how many FTEs or how many positions will be lost in my area, a nursery that was dependent on seedling in forestry, but that compromises the ability to carry out production. the objectives of this act. He writes to me, and he says: "With this budget, the [1730] final nails have been hammered into the plastic coffins What is of particular concern to me in the budget that hold the corpses of forest management, forest pro- document is the $29 million cut to the forest and range viders and small communities." That is the opinion of an resource management that deals with forest health. It owner of a forest nursery business. deals with forest reforestation practices, reforestation of If you want this bill to have any meaning, you must Crown land and treatment of damaged forests. That's es- properly resource the ministry staff that have to carry sentially what this bill is addressing. out its intent. So there are some suggestions around the In forest health, for example, we have, as a result of ministry. these cuts, the government spending less on forest health Now I'll move on to some suggestions around the as a proportion of overall spending than ever before bill itself. The wording of the bill — there's a section at a time when the forests need it the most. Inventory for reporting out, and what it describes is it sets out a work is a critical part of this bill. The Canadian Centre reporting-out process. Unfortunately, the reporting for Policy Alternatives, in reference to a net deforesta- process says it should be every year "or as soon as rea- tion policy, said: "This government lacks serious efforts sonably practicable for each of those years." So let's look to quantify exactly how much forest in the province is at the record. not satisfactorily restocked due to fires, pests and dis- The record is that the ministry had a state of forests ease outbreaks or logging." Not serious efforts to do that, report that they said would come out on a yearly basis hon. Speaker. starting in 2004 — a yearly basis — and the second re- As far as reforestation goes, there's a problem with re- port wasn't published until 2006. Well, that's not a yearly forestation as well. What we've seen is seedling numbers basis. That's actually a gap of a year. The third report, dramatically down. There's been very little investment and we're still waiting for that, is supposed to be in 2010. from the government to restock areas affected by the It's promised for a release in 2010. That's the record, and mountain pine beetle, as a matter of fact. This has led to that's why there's a lack of credibility on what we can be- a report. This is from theKamloops Daily News, the exec- lieve from this government when it says "reporting out." utive director of the Western Silviculture Contractors' [1735] Association saying: "The fact that we could be planting I suggest, in the wording of this document, that it ac- fewer trees under these current conditions seems to be tually specifies "must report out every year." Then we a contradiction." can have some trust that there will be documentation What happens is that when there are fewer resources in every year, not like the track record that we've seen. the ministry and fewer personnel, it leaves fewer people There's also under this wording in this section about to deal with innovative solutions. The Wet'suwet'enF irst who will be doing the reporting out. There's another Nation in my area has come up with some innovative suggestion. Put into this bill who will be reporting out solutions around silviculture. That involves actually as well as "must come out every year." Of course, there planting cutblocks with species that will satisfy the de- are no resources to attach to this reporting out, and as mand in the future. we've seen, the Ministry of Forests has been cut back. Of course, we know the demand for dimensional Again, that leads to a questioning and a lack of belief in lumber will perhaps not be as great and will be filled whether there's sincerity behind this bill or not. by other jurisdictions. So why not plant these cutblocks There's another section of the bill, and it has to do for the future, whether it be for bioenergy production with the power to make regulations. I'll just read a small Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3737
section of it. The government "may make regulations… In fact, Mount Waddington is the B.C. Forest Capital respecting the methodology by which deforestation and of 2010. There is really a sense of future there. It's also afforestation" — which is the planting of trees — "are to a community that has a lot of environmentalists, who be calculated." So the government can make decisions would like to see a genuine attempt at deforestation, af- about that, regulations about that. forestation and reforestation, and a genuine attempt to Well, again, let's look at the track record. Just re- fight climate change. cently this government has quietly changed most of the [1740] performance measures in its own service plan about re- It's on that behalf that I stand up and talk on this bill, porting out on these kinds of things. Up till now it had but it's also in that respect that I have many questions to report annually about how much forest lands have about the bill that previous members have also talked been denuded by harvesting, fires and disease. about. Basically, it's from all sides, whether it's people What happens now? Instead of reporting out the per- who work in the forest industry…. centage of timberland that has been restocked on an I know this isn't about the forest industry. It's about annual basis, they will forecast the degree to which this afforestation outside the regular forest industry. I know year's reforestation activity is expected to boost timber the minister made that clear in his opening remarks supplies 65 years down the road. Again, very little con- about this, but it's based on the government's track re- fidence in what the terminology of this bill is. Make it cord within the forest industry — that there is really a more specific; make it more prescriptive. lack of credibility to this bill. I'll just finish off with the definition of deforestation We've seen so much damage in the North Island over again. It's left open to regulation. There's not enough the last seven or eight years, which has come, effectively, specificity.I t says that areas can be excluded. If there are as a result of the government's record. We've seen cut areas to be excluded from what counts as deforestation, control go. We've seen the massive export of logs. We've then I say list them. Otherwise, there's too much leeway, seen a huge rush on the industry, and we've seen the loss too much wriggle room in this. of a huge number of jobs, which all has a massive impact. I had to be brief today because we have many speakers And the minister is quite right, that it has a massive im- on the list and we want to give the minister the chance pact on climate change, because we need to have trees to to address it before the end of the day. I wanted to finish absorb carbon dioxide. I think this is very much a grade off with one more quote, from the owner of Woodmere school approach now. We know the importance of trees Nursery, a person who has lots of knowledge in this field. in the equation. He says, in a letter to me: "Reading between the lines, So this bill is not about the forest industry. It's about this government does not care about managing our re- displacement. Will this mean that in areas where there sources for the future." are independent power projects developing, where they In the analysis I've offered, it's hard not to disagree are logging massively and questionably, that there will with that opinion. This government can try to start re- be trees replacing those trees that are logged? Will that versing the impression this industry professional has replace the old growth that is being logged in that dis- and many people have by withdrawing Bill 5 and rewrit- placement? I think these are questions that need to be ing it with some of the suggestions I've made and others answered, and I don't think they are being answered in on this side have made and, also, implementing some of this bill that is having a climate change cloak put on it. the solutions around properly financing the Ministry of The other issue that is very important for my com- Forests so that we can actually get to the intent of Bill 5. munity which is looking for work that is reliant on the With that, hon. Speaker, I thank you for letting me forest industry and was referred to by my colleague, the speak on this bill. member for Cariboo North, is the huge impact on cli- mate change, on emissions, on the wastes left in the C. Trevena: Madam Speaker, I, too, would like to bush. If the government was very serious about address- add my comments to the Zero Net Deforestation Act, ing climate change through the use of the forest industry, Bill 5 and like my colleagues ahead of me, will keep it through the use of afforestation, the first thing it would quite brief. Time is pressing on in this debate, and many do would be to go in there and deal with that. It would issues have been covered. be able to create jobs. It would deal with a lot of the I wanted to add my voice to it, because I represent emissions questions and would put a real credible face a forest-based community that has a very interesting on this. balance. There are a lot of forest workers there who are I note that many people have spoken before on this looking for hope and looking for inspiration and look- issue. I will be repeating many of the things that they ing for work, many of them. We've seen a lot of jobs go are saying. I just want to touch on one last point, and on the north Island, yet there's still a lot of faith in the that is the question of forest health — that we really forest industry and the forest sector and the use of trees don't have a good idea of what is happening on the in the community. ground, and without that, we can't move forward and 3738 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
claim that this is going to be the solution for climate Since 2003 Interfor and Canfor have left this province change. It's not going to be the solution either for for- to invest in other jurisdictions, all thanks to the appurten- est health, because the plantations aren't necessarily the ancy clause being removed from the Forest Revitalization healthiest ecosystems. Act, because the social contract that existed here since We've got to look at the inventory. This side of the the 1950s was gutted by this minister. House has been calling for a full inventory of what's on I must say I'm very, very limited to the time today. I the land base. I would hope that the government would have a lot to say. I must say that the people that I represent take that. It's the perfect vehicle to do that — have an — Surrey-Newton and, for that purpose, Surrey…. We inventory of the land base, so we know what needs were a forestry-dependent town just like many of the rural planting, where it needs planting. communities out there. Now I go from here and take a cab On that note, I will take my place. I think that this to go home. I see many of those forestry workers with dis- is a feel-good bill. It has a title that nobody can object appointment in their eyes. They proudly used to tell me, to — absolutely no content that anybody can object to. "Hey, I used to work in the forest industry," because they The reality will be in what comes out of regulation, and recognized that I was from the forest industry. I have a fear that it will not be the solution for either But we are now forced to take jobs other than the for- climate change or for the forest industry that my com- est industry. There are hundreds, thousands of them. It munity and all parts of my community need. really pains me to see the way the forest industry is go- ing, the way this government is showing contempt for H. Bains: It is my privilege and I'm honoured to stand the forest industry, for the forestry workers and for the here today to speak about an industry that actually has communities that they live in. fed my family ever since I came to Canada. This is the Madam Speaker, I understand the time is running out. industry that has fed many families in this province I know the minister has to make some closing remarks. I right from the inception. say: "Good luck, Minister, in China. Hope you sell some When I started in 1973 at Eburne Sawmills, which is forestry product over there. Don't come back with just in south Vancouver — the mill that no longer is there catchy phrases. Show some substance, unlike the oppor- is replaced by blacktop like hundreds of other sawmills tunity that you missed here under Bill 5." since that time — I was told that since I've got a job in the forest industry and it's a Canfor forest product, that Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the I've got a job for life. minister closes debate. Sure enough, when I walked into that sawmill I saw people, up to three generations, working in that sawmill. Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite says: "Bring back I thought: "I've got it made." some sales." Just to advise the member opposite that the [1745] sales for the month of January were 447 percent of the If you fast-forward 35 years, today many children of numbers for January 2009, and in 2009 we were over parents who are dependent on the forest industry are leav- double what we were in 2008. So we have made signifi- ing small towns, coming to the Lower Mainland. Why? cant headway in the Chinese marketplace. Because their parents are telling them: "Don't get into the I'll just close very quickly by saying that this is clearly forest industry. There's no future in the forest industry." a reporting act. That's what we committed to. That's "Why is that such a change?" I ask. It has something what we've delivered here. It very specifically designates to do with the market. There's no question about that. a report requirement every second year, a balancing by The forest industry, ever since I've been involved in it, 2015 and a continuation on that basis. has been a cyclical industry. But largely what we are facing today is the neglect by the Liberal government [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] of an industry that drove the economic engine of this province. They neglected it starting in 2003, when they We've heard actually, I think, some reasonably in- brought in the Forest Revitalization Act through which teresting debate at times but also some pretty flagrant they basically gave away the trees and the forests that rhetoric from members for Fraser-Nicola, Cariboo belonged to us to the CEOs of forest industry. Now, I North and the Cowichan Valley. These are, particularly, don't blame the CEOs. They're doing the best they can individuals who should know better than that. for their shareholders. I found it particularly interesting that the member for Who neglected us, the province and the workers in Cariboo North was the designated speaker, since he is their communities here, is this government, because not the critic or the second critic, I understand. I found they gave up this industry. They are the ones who should it quite interesting that he saw fit to take up an extensive have shown the leadership so that there are some incen- amount of time. I find that a bit abnormal. tives provided to the forest industry CEOs to reinvest in Much of the information that the member for Cariboo the province. North tabled is inaccurate. I could go through a number Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3739
of the comments, but given the amount of time that we I am advised that the specific question that she also have, I won't do that today. I hope that we have the op- asked surrounding the minutes of the Small Business portunity during the committee phase to do that. Roundtable — that that material was not included in that With that, I move second reading. letter. However, I've asked staff to have that furnished to [1750-1755] the member opposite by the end of the day today.
Second reading of Bill 5 approved unanimously on a J. Kwan: The minister's executive assistant did de- division. [See Votes and Proceedings.] liver the package to my office around the lunch hour. I haven't had a chance, I must admit, to look through the Hon. P. Bell: I move that Bill 5 be placed on the or- entire package. ders of the day for consideration by the Committee of Having a first, quick glance at it, it seemed to begin the Whole at the next sitting of the House after today. to address some of the questions that I posed in the es- timates from last year, but because I haven't had the full Bill 5, Zero Net Deforestation Act, read a second time opportunity to canvass the document, there may well be and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for con- questions arising. And of course, the estimates debate for sideration at the next sitting of the House after today. this ministry will likely go beyond today, in any event, so we'll have a chance to come back to it, and I will get a Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported chance to digest that material at a later time. progress, was granted leave to sit again. Picking up where we left off before lunch. We were dealing with the HST issue, and so I'd like to just wrap Hon. M. de Jong moved adjournment of the House. up that area. The minister's assistant also did ask me, though, what the next area after the HST is that we Motion approved. might canvass. So the next area, just for the minister's information and his staff's information…. As I stated Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 earlier today, I'm going to go into a little bit of the discre- a.m. Monday morning. tionary spending side of things — venture capital funds, ICE funding and then Olympic-related matters. The House adjourned at 5:58 p.m. I do see that one of my colleagues has come in, and I know that she's interested in, in particular, the Olympic spending and related area within the ministry. So we PROCEEDINGS IN THE may actually jump the queue on that and push that up DOUGLAS FIR ROOM after the HST piece, if that's okay. But if that's not okay, we'll keep sort of the original order. Yeah, we're okay to Committee of Supply do that? Okay.
ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF Interjection. SMALL BUSINESS, TECHNOLOGY AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT J. Kwan: She advises that she's here for two hours any- (continued) way, so we will wrap up the HST piece, and then we'll move on to the next area. The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. Okay, so we were talking about the impacts on the Hayer in the chair. food and restaurants foodservices association. The min- ister indicated, or at least hinted to some extent, that The committee met at 2:30 p.m. perhaps the association had a change of heart since the HST announcement came out, and that somehow they On Vote 43: ministry operations, $47,426,000 (con- are now more in favour of the HST as opposed to out- tinued). right against it. As I mentioned, I have with me a letter that the Hon. I. Black: Earlier this morning I had the op- president and CEO of the Canadian Restaurant and portunity to share some broader remarks, defining our Foodservices Association had written to various polit- ministry a little bit and the very wide range of things ical leaders asking them to not support the HST. that this ministry does. I won't repeat all of those. But I [1435] would like to say — for the member's benefit, the mem- In fact, they urged them to withhold support for the ber from Mount Pleasant — and advise her that the letter HST. That's an equivalent to not supporting the HST. we discussed, dated February 8, I believe it was, has been Since that time, there's been also ongoing documenta- delivered to her office. She is now in possession of that. tion in the public realm from the association where they 3740 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
are against the HST. I see it all throughout my commun- well, specifically with the tourism industry. Even meet- ity, as well, where they have launched their campaign ings and convention rooms will see a tax increase. against HST for meals in the restaurant business sector. Campgrounds, RV parks, attractions, festivals, events, The analysis, of course, done by the restaurant asso- arts and culture and heritage-type events, golf, ski and ciation folks is not the only analysis that has been done other like recreation, adventure tourism products, trans- on the HST. There are others as well. The TD Bank had portation services, spas, health and wellness — these are done one on the effects of the HST on prices, and they just some of the other areas that the sector points out as indicated that some things, of course, would go up in facing a major impact from HST. price and some would go down. But the analysis was [1440] that, overall, prices would go up. Likewise, in the case of Ontario. There are key differ- Generally speaking, they're also talking about a tax ences, as well, between Ontario and British Columbia. I shift. The figure they use is $1.7 billion — pretty close won't go into those because those arguments are not un- to the government's figure, which is $1.9 billion — in like that of the Maritimes. The thrust of it is that British terms of tax shift to the consumers. They range in a var- Columbia is significantly different from that of those iety of areas. Some of them mentioned include food other provinces. purchases — prepared food purchased at stores; restau- From a business perspective, and particularly from rant food; most financial services; telephone and cable; a small business perspective, there are going to be sig- other services like cleaning, landscaping, etc.; personal nificant impacts. That's the prediction of those from the care services — haircuts, for example; recreational ser- industry — not from us, myself, but rather from people vices; professional services; taxis — and so on. So the who are in the field who are small business owners and impact of it is not insignificant. are going to be faced with this impact. I just want to say, as well, that it was interesting to Last but not least, I want to say this, as well, and to put note that the Minister of Tourism has actually admitted this on record. I note with interest that…. This has dom- that many businesses would be hurt by the HST — un- inated debate, I think, since the election. It was a major like this minister, who would not even acknowledge that centrepiece of an election promise that was broken, if — saying that: "HST is going to be good for all concerned, you will, and British Columbians do feel misled by the but there are exceptions." government on this front. To that end, opposition mem- Finally, the Council of Tourism Associations has done bers have worked hard to try to get answers and to get an extensive review on the HST and its implication for to the bottom of this issue, raise this matter with various that sector — and rightfully so, because they are going different ministers. to be significantly impacted by this. The Minister of Citizens' Services had this to say, and Some people will say that the HST is not that bad, I thought it was noteworthy to contrast the behaviour and they keep citing the whole thing about the credits of different ministers in their approach to addressing that will be transferred back to businesses. They also this critical issue as it impacts our communities. Let me cite comparisons with other jurisdictions. Interesting to quote from the Minister of Citizens' Services. note that Atlantic Canada, where they also have the HST, Speaking in response to the critic in raising ques- has been widely cited as proof that there are positive im- tions around the HST, he said: "You've raised some very pacts of that tax. important questions, and I don't disagree that the cit- But comparing the Maritimes versus British Columbia, izens of British Columbia deserve answers to what you the sales tax harmonization in Atlantic Canada resulted have brought up. We don't have all those answers today, in an overall tax reduction from roughly 19 percent to because we're still doing the analysis in our own area." 15 percent and subsequently to 13 percent. The impact Note that Citizens' Services are doing analysis in their of harmonization on the Atlantic Canada service sector, own area. including tourism, was lessened by the fact that fewer This minister, contrasting for a moment, who has re- tourism-related goods and services were exempt from sponsibility for small businesses in his ministry and is the provincial sales or retail tax. the minister who deals with that group of stakehold- That is to say that prior toH ST they already had a sales ers who will face tremendous impacts as a result of HST and retail tax, unlike British Columbia, where the food said earlier today that the ministry, his ministry, will not and services sector and tourism sector, for example, were be doing any analysis regarding the HST. So it's interest- PST-exempt. So with the harmonization policy, they will ing to note that the Ministry of Citizens' Services will be actually see a tax increase and not a tax reduction. Last doing analysis of their own. but not least, of course, the HST in the Maritimes was Then he goes on to say: "I know that it would be nice not implemented at a time of widespread global reces- to have all the answers, but as business persons, both of sion and unprecedented lack of consumer confidence. us and having produced things" — he was referring to I've mentioned some of the products that will see a tax himself and the critic — "we have to sit down and go increase in the small business sector. There are others, as through the process of how much embedded PST — or Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3741
those types of discussions we can have — is in every sin- solutely no desire to hide behind the success that our gle item that we have in our production chain." small business community has enjoyed and how they So he acknowledges the fact that there are services and have flourished since 2001, so that is not in any way an goods that would have to deal with the impacts of HST admission. that formerly did not have the PST applied to it, and its I want to make sure that the characterization of my implications. Then he goes on to say, skipping some pas- statements is very clear — that it's a bragging point, and sages: "I would like to offer, to be able to debate and have it's a bragging point on their behalf as we cheer them the discussion about the embedded HST in the upcom- on in their success as the men and women around this ing spring of 2010 budget. I give you my assurance that province who put so much on the line to grow their we'll try to answer those questions at that time." small businesses, see the success come their way and I raise this just simply to show the stark contrast in take advantage of the many things that this government approach in addressing these issues. All through these has done to enable their success since 2001. estimates on the HST issue, this minister has refused I want to just go through some of the comments that to answer questions related to it, saying that it's not were made, specifically related to the exchange we had his responsibility, that it is the Minister of Finance's before lunch. I want to repeat very clearly my comments responsibility. regarding the food and beverage association and the He further goes on to say that his ministry has done restaurant association here in British Columbia, where no analysis nor do they intend to do any analysis, that I specifically said I was not speaking on behalf of Mr. it is all the Minister of Finance's and his ministry's re- Tostenson. I merely encouraged the member opposite to sponsibility. Contrast that with his colleague, who takes canvass his views as to where he stands in the number of a different point of view, and frankly, it's a breath of fresh months that have transpired, and I will not speculate as air in the context of what this minister has been offering to what those views may be when it comes to the HST. I in the estimates today. just suggested that a refresher may be in order. I would argue that the Minister of Citizens' Services The second comment I made, however, where I did has got the right approach in the sense that I believe it speculate and where I did suggest that I may be proven is this minister's responsibility to find out what the im- right, is that if, in that conversation, the member op- pacts of government policies are for his stakeholders. posite, or any member opposite, were to canvass Mr. His stakeholders in this instance are the small business Tostenson as to whether the tax policies of our govern- community, which he says, by his own admission, is the ment, both in terms of where we have been and where economic engine of British Columbia. And 98 percent we are going, would be preferred any day of the week of the businesses in British Columbia are from the small over the suggested tax policies, both behind us and business sector, of which, by his own admission, 75 per- ahead of us, of the NDP, we would be seen most favour- cent are from the service-oriented industries. ably, without any qualification on that statement. [1445] Turning to the questions that have been put to me They are going to be hit like there's no tomorrow with to kind of goad me into the conversation around the HST, in an unprecedented way, and the least the minis- HST…. If the member opposite would like to debate ter and his ministry could do, under his direction, is to with me tax policy — as to our view that the 4½ percent find out what the impacts are — hopefully, although, I income tax rate of our small business community, which guess, futilely for me to hope for that, for the minister to is what it was when we took office in 2001, and whether be that advocate for the sector around the cabinet table. we felt that it was correct to bring it down to 2½ percent In any event, it is what it is, and that's where we're and then announce that we should eliminate it entirely at. The fight will no doubt continue, and the tax bills by 2012 — I'm all for that debate, just not here. that were just introduced today in the House…. We'll be If the member opposite would like to debate with me looking forward to debating those in due time, and we'll as to whether it was correct to take the small business see how this entire situation will unfold. tax threshold of $200,000 and double it, first to $400,000 With that, I'd be happy, then, to move on to the next and then increase it again to half a million dollars, to area of discussion, but I suspect that the minister may keep as much money in the pockets of those small busi- want to say a few words before we move on to the next ness owners as possible as they grow their businesses area. through those crucial early years…. If they want to have that debate, I'm all for it, just not here. Hon. I. Black: First, a couple of points of clarifica- If the member opposite would like to debate with me tion for the member opposite. She made reference to the notion of deregulation, whether it was appropri- the fact that there was some sort of admission on my ate to attack that policy and to eliminate 42 percent of part as to the reliance and strength of our small busi- the regulations and the 152,000 regulations that were ness community. I want to make it clear that that was eliminated under our government, I'm glad to have that not an admission; that was a point of pride. There is ab- debate as well, just not here. 3742 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
Likewise, when it comes to the HST, I have had the A question of that type is entirely appropriate for the privilege of touring this province, speaking with many forum we are in at the moment. When he focused his chambers of commerce as an invited guest, speaking answers on — "the breath of fresh air," I believe, was the about HST and its benefits to the small business com- phrase used to discuss — the HST in the context of his munity. I'm reasonably well-versed in what it means ministry operations, that is entirely appropriate, to ask to the small business community, how it benefits them, about what the financial impacts are in your ministry for where it benefits them, the mechanics behind it. I'm the 2010 and 2011 year as you conduct your business on quite well-versed in all of that. behalf of the people of British Columbia. That's a great debate to have.I would relish the oppor- If the member opposite or any of the members op- tunity to debate with members opposite on that point, posite would like to take me down that path and line of and have done so in the large chamber of this Legislature questioning and actually speak about Budget 2010-2011, more than once, giving 20-, 25-minute dissertations of I would be delighted. my allowed half-hour specifically on that one focus. I will take any opportunity to do so again — just not here, J. Kwan: Interestingly, some of the things that the because the focus of this area, of course, is the 2010 and minister had claimed credit to and touted as examples 2011 budgets of my ministry. of what a great job they are doing happen to be areas [1450] which were initiated under the NDP. In fact, the cutting Now, there was one other comment that was made of the red tape was actually initiated by my colleague that I'd like to correct from the member opposite, which — my former colleague, I guess — Joy MacPhail, who is that there's some reference to the fact that there was has done extensive work in that regard under different no interest, according to…. The member opposite sug- names. So be it. The minister likes to call it a different gested that there was no interest in any type of analysis name in today's terms. But still, the initiative of cutting being done by our ministry. I want to correct, for those red tape was actually done and begun under the New who didn't have the opportunity to take in the spirited Democrats. exchange that we had this morning, to make it clear that Another area that the minister likes to talk about is what I was saying is that the analysis as to the impacts of the cutting of the small business tax. Actually, that too any tax is done by the Ministry of Finance. began under the NDP. Of course, the government has If the question put to us was: do we have any line item…? carried it further, and that's good, but the minister can- It was actually a question about our 2010-11 budgets as I not deny the fact that those were initiatives that began took the question. Do we have any expenditures antici- under the NDP as well. pated in the coming year to perform an impact analysis of The minister did say, though…. I did ask over and some kind with respect to the HST? My answer was that over again for studies related to the impacts of the HST that type of analysis is done by the experts in the Ministry by his ministry pertaining to the sector that he's respon- of Finance. We rely on them. We depend on them. sible for, namely the small business sector. The record of They've been investigating this tax policy and many Hansard will be there for all to see, and the minister's re- other tax policies for decades and decades, and we rely sponse was that they had not done it. He passed it on to on them to give us the information as to how it affects the Minister of Finance to say that it's their responsibil- our primary stakeholder group of the small business ity. But with all due respect, I disagree. I disagree with community. that approach, and the minister ought to have directed The member opposite then went on to…. The phrase his staff to undertake some studies around that. But he she used was to illustrate a stark contrast as to the re- hasn't done so. marks of my friend and colleague the Minister of Maybe I can ask this. If the fact is that his ministry Citizens' Services as he stood where I am now, I imagine. hasn't done the work, and given that he has the respon- I don't know for certain, because it wasn't said. But I im- sibility of the small business sector then, let me ask the agine the reference was to remarks he may have made minister this question. Has he seen any of those studies during the estimates process and how he engaged on the done by the Ministry of Finance relating to the HST as topic of the HST. it impacts the small business sector, the stakeholders to But if you listen…. I did not hear them, so I will add as which he's responsible in his ministry? a disclaimer that I haven't pulled the full Hansard record. [1455] But as I understood them from the member opposite, in fact there is no sharp contrast at all, because what the Hon. I. Black: One of the things that you notice Minister of Citizens' Services was responding to, as I lis- when you have this job is that there are times when the tened to the full recital from the member opposite, was citizenry, irrespective of their partisan views, will com- that he was talking about the impact of the HST on his pliment government, which is in many cases seen as a ministry operations during the 2010 and 2011 years. That bureaucracy that is very large. I have to say that it has is precisely the purpose of this forum. been refreshing to hear the commentary that I have from Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3743
the members of our small business community as I've it's helpful to the member or not, but the most recent toured the province on our Small Business Roundtable. one that I've read was the one released March 8 by Jack I personally go, by the way. There is a Small Business Mintz, which was a report that I'd be pleased to furnish Roundtable and a small business secretariat. to the member if she so desires. I do attend these consultations myself, and I have at As a courtesy to her, I'd be pleased to find links to the firsthand heard many, many times something that is — various parts of the website if she likes. I can point her to I'll use the word "surprising" — really very encouraging, the direction, and hopefully, she can find the informa- which is a compliment on the government's website, tion she's looking for. which doesn't happen often. Websites are a funny animal in many businesses, J. Kwan: Well, what an interesting answer. You know, and for government to be complimented for theirs, I a lot of thought went into that answer, no doubt, and thought was very cool, to be blunt. The commentary the best that the minister could come up was the Jack made around it was the degree of detail and the focus Mintz report, which is, of course, fascinating in and of on that website pertaining to the HST. I have repeatedly itself. That study was conducted after the fact and not now — as people have come up with questions about the before the HST was implemented. It's understandable, HST and how it affects them — taken our small business I suppose, because of all the pressure that was put on community and directed them to that website. As I've the government, that perhaps they'd better go and do a said here many times today, this is the purview of the study of sorts. Ministry of Finance, after all. I suspect, though, that with Jack Mintz's report there's There is a specific section on that website pertaining, more to it than what meets the eye. If the minister has I'm advised, specifically to the small business commun- seen that report in full, and not just the excerpts that ity and the impact of the HST on them. So in the absence have been released to the public, then could the minister of the Minister of Finance standing here in my place, I please tell me: within that report are there sections that would suggest to the member opposite that that website pertain particularly to the impacts on the small business does have some very good analysis as to the impact of community of the HST? the HST on the small business community. Hon. I. Black: Hon. Chair, it has been said several J. Kwan: That wasn't my question to the minister. We times in here today already. If we wanted to get a debate have looked at the various websites — and beyond the around this, we can do it. If the member has questions government websites, I might add — on the issues of around it, we can do it, but not in this venue. If the the HST, and in other languages too, I may say. There member has questions around Budget 2010-2011, I'd be are lots of comments from the small business commun- delighted to do so. If she wants copies of reports that are ity — not quite as glowing as the minister would like published by the Ministry of Finance, she can go there you to believe them to be, from the small business sec- to get them, or as a courtesy, we can try to find them on tor; in fact, some of them quite negative and damning her behalf. — against the HST. Many of them are working as best as they can to try to stop the HST. The Chair: Member. I will remind the member again, Having said that, my question to the minister is very if we can focus on Vote 43, please. specific, and, seeing as the budget pays his salary,I would deem that it would be appropriate for him to answer the J. Kwan: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. question. And that is: has he seen any of the reports Yes, indeed, the budget actually pays for the minis- conducted by the Ministry of Finance, as he claims that ter's salary, and to the extent to which he's the Minister they've been done under that ministry, on analysis and of Small Business, I would be very interested in know- impacts of the HST on the small business community? ing what knowledge base he has in researching this issue, with respect to the HST taxation policy impacting his Hon. I. Black: The reports thatI was referring to have major stakeholder within his ministry — namely, the been cross-industry and have been focused on business, small business community. I would suspect that his sal- which would include the small business community — ary is within the purview of this debate, and what work again, furnished by the Ministry of Finance. he is undertaking. He keeps on saying that he's willing to go and ac- J. Kwan: Can the minister name one study? tually engage in the debate outside of this House. It is [1500] funny, you know. This is theH ouse of the people, where we actually engage in discussions around issues related Hon. I. Black: The amount of material that I've read to the people, and the small business community just on this topic in the number of months since the an- happens to be a ministry to which he's supposed to be nouncement of it is quite large. I'm not sure whether responsible. 3744 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
Noting that, though — the issue around the report — regard, I'd be delighted with any questions that come the minister actually didn't answer the question at all. within the purview of why we're here today. One could only assume that the very fact that he didn't answer the question is because he hasn't done that The Chair: Member, I would remind you again that work or he hasn't read the report or he doesn't know. we're here on Vote 43. Otherwise, I suspect, there'd be a different answer. It is this minister's approach to things — where he J. Kwan: Yes indeed, Mr. Chair, and the minister is is more than happy to tout the information and put it denying that Vote 43 pays for his salary. It actually talks out there, information that he'd like to indicate to the about his work — right? — and what he is doing in public that he knows, but where, I suppose, on informa- his capacity as the minister of state responsible for the tion that he doesn't know, the better approach would Ministry of Small Business, Technology and Economic be to fob it off to someone else and say: "It's not my Development. responsibility." Does it not do that, and does it not then open it up to [1505] the work that the minister is undertaking related to this Sadly, frankly, it's not good enough. It's not good taxation policy impacting his stakeholders? What work enough. He is the minister of the Crown responsible has he undertaken, then? He won't answer any ques- for this. I would have expected that he would have done tions related to his ministry. that homework. No doubt these questions will be going You know what? The minister says these are personal to the Minister of Finance as well, and not just to the questions. No, they're not. They're not personal ques- minister responsible for small business. One would have tions. They're questions pertaining to the ministry and thought that he would have done that work. the stakeholders as they impact them and what he's do- But aside from the Jack Mintz report, I'm interested: ing as the minister in that capacity, in that regard. That's are there any other reports that the minister might have why I'm asking those questions. come across with respect to the impacts of the HST on If he was forthcoming in answering the questions in the small business community? the broader sense of what the ministry is doing, then we could move forward. But he wouldn't. He continues to Hon. I. Black: Notwithstanding the kind of rather avoid these questions, to obfuscate and push them off to personal nature of the attack that's now taking place, someone else. So what choice do I have, Mr. Chair? hon. Chair, I rest confident in the views of the small In this context, this is why the minister is faced with business community as to the performance of this min- these questions, and maybe it's making him feel uncom- istry and this government over the last eight years. fortable. That's not the intent. The intent is to try to get I'm not kept up late at night wondering about the some answers here to see what sort of advocate we have views of the member opposite as to my personal con- and what studies have been done within the ministry, by tribution to that effort, because that is coming to us the government. What understanding and extent of the in spades in a very positive level from the small busi- understanding does the minister himself have with re- ness community consistently, repeatedly, through every spect to the impacts of the HST on his major stakeholder Small Business Roundtable that we do — and the fact group? So far all I've heard…. No doubt the minister can that we listen to them and engage with them. We take make endless speeches prepared by the public affairs their ideas. bureau to spout out what a great job they're doing. They write a report. They issue it to government on an Just for the minister's information, stakeholder groups annual basis, and we have an action plan that falls out of from his ministry have said to us in opposition that had that, which they have authored, telling us what we need they known the HST was on the table before the election to do next and where we need to go next, all of which is — in other words, had the Liberals not misled the public a matter of public record. during the election period and said that they would not I again would be delighted to engage in this debate, implement the HST only to turn around and do exactly as the member says, in this House — the large chamber that — that would have been their number one issue next door where the legislation has been debated and during the campaign. where the budget speeches have been responded to and This was communicated to us by a variety of stake- the throne speeches have been responded to. holders from the small business sector, Mr. Chair. They I have been very clear in my remarks in my support continue to say that. They've said it on the public record, for the HST and have no problem at all debating in and they most certainly have said it privately, as well, to any forum other than the one we're currently in. Why? various opposition members at different times. Because the one we're currently in, by its very defin- [1510] ition, is focused on a vote pertaining to the $60 million So it's very interesting to note that the minister sim- of taxpayer money that is being spent on their behalf in ply doesn't want to deal with these issues in this context. the ministry for the year 2010 through to 2011. In that It's clear to me that the minister, frankly, in my view…. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3745
I believe the minister hadn't actually looked at those re- with the minister on: Olympic-related matters as they ports in any detail, if he's looked at them at all. pertain to the ministry. I'll pick up after that. In fact, I'm not even sure if there are reports that exist related to impacts to the small business community. If K. Corrigan: I had some questions related to the there are…. He offered to actually go to get the Mintz Olympics and some costs associated with the Olympics. report for me, which is on the public record, and I ap- Last year in estimates the Minister of State for the preciate that offer. But maybe he can offer this. Get the Olympics, Mary McNeil, said that she would be able to reports that are not on the public record — particularly provide numbers — the number of employees that were the reports that impact the small business community, involved in the employee loan program for VANOC, pertaining to the HST. that they would be tracked and accounted for. But she How about those? How about tabling those for the wasn't able to provide any of that data at that time. In public eye, and then maybe we can actually get some fact, I haven't received any of that data yet. facts on the table for discussion. I also was told by her at one point, in an exchange, that maybe what I should do when I want to get infor- Hon. I. Black: Just for the record, I didn't say the ques- mation about costs of the games, various costs, is to go tions were of a personal nature; I said that the attack was to the individual ministers involved. So I'm going to ask of a personal nature. There's a distinct difference. The questions of the minister of state and I will ask them of questions are not at all of a personal nature and not at all individual ministers as well. That's why I'm here today. relevant to why we are here. My first question.I 'm wondering if the minister could The member opposite asked the pertinent question, let me know the total number of paid employees that somewhat rhetorical, of what choice she has. Well, I this ministry loaned to the games. would suggest the choice she has is to ask me questions [1515] about my budget. Hon. I. Black: Again, for the sake of consistency, The Chair: May I please remind the member…. I the 2010 Olympic Games, as marvellous a celebration think it's getting repetitive now. The minister has an- as they were and successful as they were, took place in swered the questions you were looking for. Maybe we the '09-10 year, not in the '10-11 year. If the member has can go to different questions.I don't know if the answers some questions on our go-forward plan with respect to will be different. exploiting the Olympic Games, opportunities in our '10- 11 budget, I'd be pleased to answer them in this venue J. Kwan: No kidding it's getting repetitive that the and any other questions that I could take outside of this minister is not answering the questions. It's clear as venue. day. Even though it's cloudy out there, it's clear as day that the minister is not answering the questions. And K. Corrigan: Well, I'm going to go through these it's for the public to see. People can see what's going on questions anyway, because if the minister is going to tell here. I think they can see through it as well — why the me that this information is not going to be provided in minister is not answering those questions. The public estimates after I asked in the last estimates for the min- will speak, Mr. Chair, no doubt, on this issue plus many ister of state responsible to provide the information, and others. I was told, at a time when the estimates were almost over Frankly, for a minister who is responsible for the small — so we were towards the last of the ministries — that business community to not take this matter seriously in the way to do that was to ask in estimates of the various the manner in which he's responded is very unfortunate. ministers involved…. It's unfortunate for the sector, it's unfortunate for the This is the first opportunity thatI 've had to do that, so economy, and it's unfortunate for British Columbians I just want to get it on the record. If the answer is that who rely on this sector to generate the economy for we're not going to be able to get that information, then I everyone's benefit. want to be clear. So I will ask all of these questions and The next area…. I would like to move on, because give the minister the opportunity to respond. obviously, the minister is not going to come around However, as an alternative, I would certainly wel- to recognizing the importance of providing factual in- come it if the minister would confirm — perhaps not formation to the public on the HST. The minister, well, answering here — that I will receive that information prefers not to table the facts. Let's just put it at that — and in a timely way. I'm sorry to be pushy about that, but shall we? Their practice has been to mislead the public, I did ask the minister of state in the estimates in October and that's a much better approach for the Liberal gov- for that information, and I haven't received a bit of it ernment, no doubt. yet. We're now going to move on to the next area, which I need to try to get some clarity and to try to tie this my good colleague has been waiting patiently to engage down, because we were told by not only the minister 3746 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
but also by the head of the Olympic secretariat, Philip how many employees there were in each ministry and Steenkamp, that that information was going to be how much that was worth and who those people were tracked — that it would be tracked and that it would be or what their positions were, which is information that available and that that could be given to me. That hasn't I'm interested in. happened yet. I'll tell the minister why I'm interested in that. I'll give Considering that there is an estimate of perhaps up you an example. I was downtown during the Olympics to $23 million — that was one of the estimates, I think, having a great time one day, and I ran into a friend of that was in the paper — of how much this is going to mine who has a very senior position in government and cost the provincial government and given the fact that who I would imagine is paid probably in the range of — we're being told that this is not part of the $765 mil- I don't know — probably $120,000 or $130,000 a year, a lion that is supposed to be the full cost of the Olympic fairly high-level employee. Games, I think it's important to the taxpayers of British That person was spending two weeks of taxpayer- Columbia to try to tie down what these numbers are. I funded time as a host — assigned to be there as a host, as think it's surprising that the minister would not want to a volunteer for the Olympic Games — and said unequivo- be forthright about this information, if the information cally that it wasn't a question of whether they wanted to is available. go. They were assigned to do it. That's a cost to the tax- I've already gone to another estimates where the in- payers of British Columbia — and a diversion from their formation was there. It was ready for me, and I received work — of several thousand dollars for that person. it. I really appreciated the forthright manner in which it I think it's important for the taxpayers to find out this was put together and provided to me. In contrast, I guess information. I have no idea what the Olympic secretar- that I'm not going to get the same cooperation here. iat report is going to say, so I'm going to continue asking Just to be clear, then. Would the minister agree to the questions, because I want it to be clear and on the re- provide, perhaps within the next couple of weeks, the cord that I'm being told that I'm not going to be allowed information that I just requested — that is, the number to have this information, which is part of this ministry, of employees that were engaged in the employee loan which should have been tracked and apparently has program for the Olympic Games and, in addition, how been tracked, and which I was directed to come back to much that would have been worth, essentially — in estimates for. other words, what their salaries were and how long they My understanding was to come back to estimates to were gone — so the total amount that would be attached ask those questions. This is the first opportunity that to those employees going to the employee loan program, I've had to do that. You can say that this is dealing with whether or not that amount includes benefits and who this budget, but the reality is that this involves taxpayers' paid them, which ministry paid them? That's the first set money that went through this ministry, and this is the of…. That's the question at this point. first chance I've had to ask these questions. I am going to ask about the volunteer program. I'm Hon. I. Black: Again, I'm not trying to be unneces- wondering how many ministerial employees received sarily obtuse here, but for the benefit of those watching additional time off to volunteer for the games? at home, the purpose of our discussion here is to dis- cuss the $60 million of taxpayer money that is to be Hon. I. Black: First of all, to be very clear to the used in the operations of the Ministry of Small Business, member opposite, it's not me who is saying it. It's not Technology and Economic Development for the period my ministry that is saying it. It's not my political party of April 1, 2010, through to March 31, 2011. that is saying the purpose of this forum is to discuss the [1520] 2010-2011 budget estimates. It's the rules of this House I am advised…. To the member's question: first of which determine that that's what is to be done here. It's all, I can't speak for any other ministers who have been not by some sort of preference I have that that is the standing where I'm standing here. I can't really com- focus of these discussions. I think it's important that the ment on what has been said or not said or the context record reflects my sentiment on that one and, indeed, and the specifics of other ministers, but whatI can say is the fact that that is the case. that the Olympic Games secretariat is, as I understand First of all, I'm not saying for a moment that the mem- it, publishing a report on this topic. I'm advised that in- ber's questions don't have merit. I'm not saying that for formation from our ministry has been forwarded to that a moment. In fact, as I've mentioned, that informa- report, and at that time that information should satisfy tion, which is to do with the previous budget year, has the request of the member opposite. been forwarded for the publication of a report, which I understand, I am advised, should answer the member's K. Corrigan: My problem is that I don't know what questions. that report is going to include. I don't know whether it's To try to drag information from previous years into going to include a breakdown of all the ministries and these discussions, notwithstanding the fact that it is not Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3747 within the purview of this forum to do so, presupposes it does provide broader opportunity to question the ad- the outcome of what that report is going to be. ministrative action of the ministry. [1525] My message is that we have contributed to that re- J. Kwan: Thank you very much for that direction, and port. We are not the Olympic Games secretariat. We perhaps the same could apply to the minister for an- don't publish the report that's being referenced, and I swering the questions. would refer the questions on the report, its content, its structure and how detailed it might be to the appropri- The Chair: Yes, Member. ate minister. Minister, the questions related to Vote 43.
K. Corrigan: You're saying that it's the rules of the Debate Continued House, so I'll just ask the minister, then: is the minis- ter suggesting that the previous minister, the Minister of Hon. I. Black: To be honest, I'm not particularly clear Labour, who was quite pleased to answer the questions, after all what the question was that's been put to me, and was breaking the rules of the House by answering those I'm not sure which member's question it is that I'm be- questions? ing asked to answer here, hon. Chair. I will suggest, however, to the member opposite that Hon. I. Black: I am not going to speak to what previ- I don't have a problem taking the information that we ous ministers have or not have said in this forum. I am have forwarded to the Olympic Games secretariat out- simply advising what the staff sitting behind me here are side of this forum and forwarding it to you. That's not a prepared to discuss today in the focus of this forum. problem. It's just that the focus of this discussion is on the 2010 budget and Vote 43, as you have pointed out. The Chair: Member, the Committee of Supply de- bate provides a broad opportunity to question the [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.] administrative action of the Ministry of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development. I encourage K. Corrigan: The minister is talking about being will- the member to pose questions related to Vote 43. ing to forward the information, and I appreciate that. My assumption would also be that in the 2010-2011 Point of Order year there will be continuing expenses related to looking at the benefits, looking at the costs, looking at the impact and J. Kwan: On a point of order, please. The rule and evaluating the Olympics as they relate to this ministry. the practice of this House has been, for the last 14 years Assuming that there will be some costs — including that I've been around, that when estimates debate comes time, perhaps — in gathering the information that I've about, we actually have the opportunity to ask about the asked for that you need to provide me with, there will be budgets related to this year and for the previous year. costs that will be under the 2010-2011 budget. The fiscal year for 2009 has not yet ended, Mr. Chair. As far as I'm concerned, then, it is relevant to 2010, This ministry funds those programs, and some of that because I'm asking you to do some work that's going funding is ongoing. And yes, this goes out to the 2010 to cost you some money as part of your budget, so the budget. Pertaining to the questions that my colleague questions that I'm asking are relevant. has asked, they are completely relevant. This ministry was responsible for the hosting program Hon. I. Black: What's the question? Which question of the Olympics, for the many hosting activities which do you want me to go after? this ministry was responsible for. One of the questions [1530] that I heard my colleague ask centred around how many staff within the Ministry of Small Business, Technology K. Corrigan: The thing that I'm asking is: why is it and Economic Development were assigned to be vol- not relevant, if there's going to have to be work that's unteers as part of the hosting of the Olympic Games in done in 2010-2011 in order to assess the Olympics, even Vancouver, Whistler and Richmond. Surely the minister if it's just getting together the information that I'm ask- can provide that answer to members of the public. ing? Then there is a budget item, a line item, as small as it might be, for 2010-2011. Why, therefore, will you not The Chair: Member, thank you for your point of answer the questions that I'm asking? order. As I stated before, this committee debate provides a Hon. I. Black: To the member's most recent ques- broad opportunity to the question of administration, tion, insofar as we have expenses within our budget for but I encourage the members to relate the questions the 2010-2011 year that pertain to the follow-up exer- and pose the questions related to Vote 43, even though cises, whatever they look like, from the Olympic Games, 3748 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
I would absolutely be interested in answering those K. Corrigan: Well, if I can't receive any assurances questions from the member opposite if she wants to for- that I'm going to get that information or that the public mulate them in that manner — absolutely. That's why we is going to get that information, then…. I was advised have all the staff here. that I would receive information about the Olympics and have not received that information. K. Corrigan: I appreciate the comments that are made I'm going to ask the minister. How many of the min- by the minister — that the minister would be pleased to istry staff, or the minister himself, received Olympic forward all that information. I will take full advantage tickets or Paralympic tickets? of that. I was going to ask, as well…. I'm going to ask it any- Hon. I. Black: Madam Chair, there's a twisting of my way, because I don't know whether or not this is in the words taking place here. I want to make sure it's very report that is being prepared by the Olympic secretar- clear. iat. I will ask the minister whether or not information [1535] about the number of tickets and who got the tickets for What I said was that I am not, as the minister, and the Olympic Games is included in the information that we are not, as the ministry, the authors of the report to went in that report. which the member refers. It is for that reason and that reason alone that I cannot offer the assurance on behalf Hon. I. Black: The Olympic Games secretariat was of my ministry the way that she would like. compiling that information during the course of the I am not in any way undermining the commitments games themselves. They were the repository of that in- that have been made by other ministers or our govern- formation during the course of the games, including the ment with respect to the full reporting on that matter elements of that topic which touched on the specific part which, I might remind the member again, is from the of the business-hosting program for which this ministry '09-10 year and not from the '10-11 year. was responsible, as part of the broader integrated host- ing program for the 2010 Olympic Games. K. Corrigan: Does the minister not recall whether or I can confirm, that they were, as the people who were not the minister attended any Olympic events? gathering that information in preparation for the report that's being discussed…. There is no net new informa- Hon. I. Black: My recollection of the '09-10 year is tion to come from our ministry contributing towards not in question. However, none of the expenditures that report. It was gathered by the Olympic Games sec- associated with '09-10 are also not in question for the retariat during the course of the Olympics themselves, purposes of our forum here. If the member opposite and it is on that basis that they will produce the report would like to discuss our plans for going forward fol- that has been committed by government. lowing the great success of the Olympic Games in '10-11, I'd be delighted to do so. K. Corrigan: I've received an assurance that we're go- ing to get that information. I guess what I would also The Chair: Member, can I please remind you that we like, then, is an assurance that this report is a compre- are sticking to Vote 43, specifically to the Ministry of Small hensive report that has individual ministry information: Business, Technology and Economic Development. who got tickets; what events they attended; the purposes they were there for; the guests they took; what MLAs K. Corrigan: I wanted to also ask a question and find attended with the minister, if the minister went; the out- out about whether or not there were any other Olympic comes and benefits; and so on. These are the questions costs associated with this ministry that either will be that I intended to ask in these estimates, and I want to covered in that budget or will be covered in the budget be assured that that kind of information is going to be that is coming up in 2010-2011. Ones that I haven't included in that report. asked about, for example, are the cost of Olympic tick- ets, the cost of volunteers or the cost of the employee Hon. I. Black: I am not in a position to give that as- loan program. surance, because I am not the author of that report. As mentioned, it is not only outside of our ministry; it is Hon. I. Black: I can confirm for the member that also outside of the '10-11 years that we're here to discuss. there are no expenses in our 2010-2011 budget associ- I can't give that assurance because I am not aware of how ated with volunteers for the 2010 Olympic Games. I can the report is being compiled. confirm that there are no expenditures anticipated for our 2010-2011 budget with respect to volunteer second- The Chair: I'd like to just remind the member that we're ment to the Olympic Games, and I can confirm that there sticking to Vote 43 for the Ministry of Small Business, are no expenditures contemplated within our 2010-2011 Technology and Economic Development operations. budget with respect to Olympic Game tickets. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3749
I can, however, also confirm that in the context of cost in the 2010-2011 budget for the benefits for any em- our 2010-2011 budget, we do have the responsibility ployee loan programs to the Olympics? and, thankfully, the skilled people to take advantage of international opportunities as we focus on business de- Hon. I. Black: No, there is not. velopment exercises around the world. To the extent that we have just hosted effectively the K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could world's largest trade show, as they've all come to us, we then tell me what the comparison is of the cost of bene- now have the opportunity — and the responsibility, fits in this area between 2009 and 2010. frankly — of returning to the mode of business oper- ations within the ministry that existed prior to the Hon. I. Black: It's the same answer I gave a moment games, which is that we do outbound trade missions and ago. There was no line item in one budget to compare host individual trade missions as they come to British with a line item in another budget, but as I mentioned, Columbia to investigate how they might invest here, cre- I'd welcome the request to my office on a specific basis ate jobs here, help grow communities here, etc. from the member, and we will reply accordingly. So there are expenditures within our 2010-2011 [1545] budget associated with our business as usual, for lack of a better phrase, as we pursue those opportunities both K. Corrigan: I'm surprised by that answer, be- on an inbound and outbound trade mission basis and cause what I've been told — and what I was told by the by taking advantage of our trade investment representa- Minister of State for the Olympics and by the chair of tives who exist around the world to benefit the people of the Olympic secretariat — was that that information British Columbia. was being tracked. In fact, the minister has already con- [1540] firmed that that information has gone to the secretariat. Maybe I could just receive a confirmation that that K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if there are any expenses specific information is in the information that went to in the 2010-2011 budget for an employee loan program the secretariat. for VANOC or the Olympics. I guess the follow-up question to the minister is then…. If that information could go to the secretariat, Hon. I. Black: I can confirm that there are no ex- I'm not quite sure why it is that we can't get that infor- penditures of that kind in our 2010-2011 budget. mation today and why it's being discussed as not being a line item when it was, in fact, being tracked. K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could tell me what the difference is in the amount of the budget for Hon. I. Black: Madam Chair, you yourself have al- an employee loan program for 2010-2011 as compared ready advised the member that the reason that that to 2009-2010. information is not being discussed in this forum is be- cause this forum is to focus on the 2010 and 2011 budget Hon. I. Black: It's a bit of a difficult question to an- year. There are no anticipated expenditures of the type swer, only inasmuch as there was no line item in our that the member is asking about in that budget. '09-10 budget that referred specifically to a volunteer or secondment program of any kind, so there's no Point of Order real ability to do the math the way that the member is requesting. J. Kwan: On a point of order. The point of order is this. However, I did commit earlier, and I was sincere in The member is asking the minister this question: how my offer, that if the member just drops us a quick note does the 2010-11 budget, in comparison to the 2009- to make the request as to the information she's looking 10 budget in various different areas, differ in terms of for regarding the secondment during the '09-10 games expenditures? — again, outside of this particular forum — that infor- Surely the minister can provide that answer, because mation, I suspect, will answer the question that she's it's a comparison between budgets. The minister will say looking for. that he will only answer questions related to the 2010- 11 budget, but we want to know: what is the difference K. Corrigan: I'm quite happy to have that informa- between this budget and last year's budget in various tion, and I'm willing to accept that, if that information is expenditures? Surely the minister can answer that ques- going to be provided to me. tion, and surely that is in order. Madam Chair, I take I'm going to ask, as well, just to make sure we have it on your guidance. the record…. I would like to know what the breakdown is between the costs for the employees and whether that The Chair: The Chair has no authority to compel a includes benefits. I will ask the minister, then: is there a minister to answer a question, but I do find it in order. 3750 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
J. Kwan: Thank you. secretariat, that I would like to provide the same infor- mation to the member opposite and that I would like to Debate Continued do so in a written format. [1550] K. Corrigan: Given what the Chair has said, I think I will continue on asking the questions that I asked ear- K. Corrigan: Apparently, these estimates are going to lier, then. go on later than today, and we'll be back on Monday. So I've asked about the employee loan program, and I I'm wondering if the minister could confirm that this understand that it's in order for that information to be information will be brought back to these estimates on provided. So I'll ask that question again — a repetition Monday. of the question, unless you want me to state it again. Hon. I. Black: We will provide that information to Hon. I. Black: Please state it again. the member opposite once I can get the appropriate in- formation in the format that is consistent with what we K. Corrigan: Okay. My question was, first of all, shared with the Olympic Games secretariat. whether or not there was included in the budget for 2010-2011…. Was there any money assigned to employ- K. Corrigan: I just want to confirm, with these vari- ees being involved in an employee loan program for the ous areas that I've asked about — the employee loan Olympics or Paralympics? program as well as the volunteers — that the minister is saying that the minister will provide the information Hon. I. Black: No, there were no line items of that that I have requested in these estimates, because I don't kind in the 2010-2011 budget. know what the form of the information was that went to the secretariat. K. Corrigan: My question was not whether there was For example, I don't know if it is clear, from the report a line item. My question was…. that went to the secretariat, how many employees were covered; whether or not the amount that is being esti- Hon. I. Black: Or expenditure. mated is for the employees' salary or whether it includes their total benefit package; how many people were in- K. Corrigan: Or expenditure. No expenditure. Okay. volved; and who they were. I want it to be clear that that My next question, then, is: how does that compare information is the information that the minister is going with the expenditures for the employee loan program to bring back. for 2009-2010? Hon. I. Black: I'm advised that that is the informa- Hon. I. Black: I believe I've answered that question tion, and I'm also advised that we could probably get — that I'm willing to share that information with the that to the member as early as tomorrow. member and that I plan to follow up upon receiving a request from her through my office. K. Corrigan: Thank you for that, Minister. I appreci- ate it. K. Corrigan: Similarly…. So I'm assuming from that Could I also confirm that that information is also go- that the minister is not able to answer that question to- ing to be including the information with respect to the day. Is that correct? costs related to the volunteers? That would be the volun- teer program, where volunteers received additional time Hon. I. Black: I'll be pleased to forward that infor- off in order to volunteer for the games. They used some mation to the member once we're finished with our of their time and some taxpayer-supported time. estimates process here. Hon. I. Black: I'm advised that we would be able to J. Kwan: On a point of order, Madam Chair. Is the probably get that information and submit it with the ori- minister saying he's not providing that information be- ginal request, also by close of business tomorrow. cause the questions are out of order, or is he saying that he doesn't have the information, doesn't know the in- K. Corrigan: Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that. formation and will provide it after the estimates process I also wanted to ask, then: in the year 2010-2011 how so that he can compile that information for the member much is it estimated that this ministry is going to spend who is asking them? on Olympic tickets?
Hon. I. Black: What I am saying is that we have Hon. I. Black: I've already answered. The fact is that furnished a set of information to the Olympic Games there is no expenditure anticipated for Olympic tick- Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3751
ets in 2010 and 2011. A report on ticketing is expected hotels, travel or other costs that I haven't asked about yet shortly — sometime this spring, I understand — from related to the Olympics? the Olympic Games secretariat. [1600]
K. Corrigan: To the minister: I'm wondering how Hon. I. Black: I am very, very pleased with the op- much the expenditure on tickets in 2010-2011 com- portunity that lies ahead in the 2010 and 2011 budget for pares to the expenditure on tickets in 2009-2010 by this focusing on and leveraging the Olympic Games that we ministry. recently hosted in Vancouver, Whistler and Richmond [1555] — the opportunity to take some of the business relation- ships that were developed and expand upon them, and Hon. I. Black: I can confirm that the difference year the ones that we already had, further develop. over year from 2010-2011 versus 2009-2010 is zero. Our In our various trade missions that we have planned ministry was not the ministry responsible for buying for the coming fiscal year, we will be very much look- Olympic tickets. ing to leverage the opportunity of the Olympic Games in a variety of ways across Canada, down into the K. Corrigan: Is the minister, then, saying that no one United States and certainly to the Pacific Rim coun- from this ministry attended any Olympic events? tries, but with respect to getting into some sort of a detailed breakdown of what money was spent in '09-10 Hon. I. Black: The member's question again is re- on the Olympics, I would refer the member to the pub- lating to the Olympic Games, which took place in lic accounts. '09-10. As I've advised the member that, irrespective of that, there is a fulsome report forthcoming in the K. Corrigan: I guess I'll have to go through them one spring on the entire ticketing allocation and use by the by one and ask for a comparison, then, if that's the way government. we're going to do it. My question — unless the minister is willing to pro- [H. Bloy in the chair.] vide an assurance that we could get that information as well — is on costs associated with this ministry in 2009- K. Corrigan: I wonder if the minister could just be 2010 in all Olympic-related expenses, including tickets, helpful, then, to avoid these questions going to each and including who had the tickets and what they attended every ministry — although they may, anyway — and and whether or not there are other expenses related to whether or not the minister could point me in the dir- meals, hosting, hotels, travel and so on. ection of which ministry it is that was responsible for If the minister is willing to provide an assurance that purchasing Olympic tickets. that information will be provided to the taxpayers of British Columbia, then I'm willing to accept that we'll Hon. I. Black: I'm at a little bit of a disadvantage here, wait a few days for that information, and we'd be pleased Member. I can only suggest the member start by speak- to have it. I'm looking for the very specific informa- ing with the Minister Responsible for the Olympics as tion, and if the minister is not willing to do that, I'll go to who was…. I wouldn't want to speculate as to which through every single item line by line. other ministries may have an involvement in purchasing However, I want to make the more general point that tickets for the Olympic Games. I can only confirm what this is the year 2010. We are discussing…. We are in the I shared already — that our ministry was not a purchas- year 2010. We've just had the Olympics, and there has ing agent associated with the games. been no other opportunity to get this information, so I'm asking, on behalf of the taxpayers of British Columbia, K. Corrigan: You perhaps can help a little bit. If, in for this information. fact, this ministry received any Olympic tickets, is the I actually think it's quite outrageous that I have to go minister saying that this ministry does not know where through and ask for comparison because the ministry is those tickets came from? saying that this is not relevant. I think it's relevant to the taxpayers of the province. Hon. I. Black: No, I was not suggesting anything other Do you get my question out of that? Does the minis- than the fact that the expenditure associated with those ter get the question that I'm asking for that information? was not handled by our ministry, and that the event, in However we get it is fine. any event, took place in '09-10 and not '10-11. [1605]
K. Corrigan: In 2010 and 2011, are there going to be Hon. I. Black: I want to make it very clear to the any estimated costs for this ministry of any expenses member opposite that I — and I'm quite comfortable related to Olympics with regard to hosting, any meals, speaking for my colleagues — am not holding in any 3752 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010 way at disrepute the importance of the questions being I will ask the question. In terms of hosting, how much asked, not for a moment. is in the ministry budget for 2010-2011 for a hosting pro- Frankly, I think that at the end of the day, we're so gram related to the Olympic and Paralympic Games? very proud of what happened in this city and through the results of the Olympic Games — not just the athletic Hon. I. Black: First of all, I want to reemphasize to achievement and the grand spectacle that it was at a very the member that I don't think the intent behind her high level for British Columbians and for Canadians but question is in any way dishonourable. I don't think that also that our very specific efforts on the hosting pro- it's in any way unreasonable to want to understand how gram were an enormous success. We're very, very proud expenditures took place on the part of government in of that hosting program. something as successful as the Olympic Games and our The information about that hosting program, to be little piece of that being a subset, if you will, of a broader quite candid…. Number one, putting aside for a mo- integrated hosting program. ment that this forum is not the right one to debate the Not for a moment am I suggesting that the question fiscal year that's still underway, the fact of the matter is doesn't have merit, and if my previous statements didn't that a lot of these costs and a lot of the information asso- emphasize that strongly enough, I hope that this one ciated with the hosting program are still being compiled, does. I'm not suggesting that for a moment. to the point where a report has been committed by gov- What I did say, however — and I've actually answered ernment on the hosting program particularly focused this specific question that was just asked, I think, two if on ticketing — without question. not three times now — is that there are no anticipated To presuppose the outcome of that report by start- expenditures in 2010 and 2011 for the expenditure type ing to take what information we have now, which isn't that the member referenced. complete, for which we're still waiting to gather more in- I want to repeat what I just said as well. The data formation, I don't think does a service to Her Majesty's around the Olympic Games is still being compiled. It Opposition or the taxpayers of British Columbia. So is premature to start speculating — because, frankly, we're certainly participating in the compiling of that in- there would be a degree of that — as to what happened, formation. That process is underway. It is not complete never mind the fact that that's not the intent of this yet. forum. I would encourage the member to wait for the Putting aside the fact that Vote 43 does not contem- report. plate the questions that are being asked…. You know, If the information within the report is not to the the flame has just gone out. The Olympic Games are member's satisfaction, then I encourage the member to barely behind us. We are at the stage now where that in- articulate that in a letter to me, and we'll try to address it formation is being compiled to produce a report which from that point forward. I believe will be instructive to the member opposite, and I would encourage the member to give that process a K. Corrigan: The question that I just asked was how chance to complete — the gathering of that information, much was being spent in 2010-2011 on hosting, and the the compiling of it and the presenting of that informa- minister said that that had been answered. I believe that tion — as has been committed by government. the answer earlier, then, was zero. I'm wondering how that compares to expenditures K. Corrigan: If the minister could assure me that that by this ministry for hosting in 2009-2010 related to the report is going to contain all the information that I have Olympic and Paralympic Games. asked for about this specific ministry, then I'd be per- fectly happy to wait for the report. But I'm not sure that Hon. I. Black: As I mentioned, the information that the minister can do that. the member is seeking clarity on is still being compiled, The comment that this ministry did not purchase and a report on that topic is being prepared. Once all tickets and, therefore, related questions to who got it are the information has been assembled, I would encourage irrelevant is, to me, wrong-minded, because the reality the member to follow up with me if that report does not is that money flows all over government and between meet her satisfaction once it's released. ministries. I think people want to know about the deliv- ery of the program, whoever paid for it. K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could If there are expenditures or energy spent on a pro- let me know when it's expected that that report will be gram within this ministry, including hosting and going complete. to events — it supposedly had a value — then I think this is the right place to be asking the minister about those Hon. I. Black: The author of that report would questions. I certainly can go through each of those things be the Ministry for the Olympic Games, and there- one by one, and I suppose I will need to do that. fore, I wouldn't want to speak on their behalf. But I'm [1610] advised that the term "late spring" is being used to de- Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3753
scribe the time frame when that report is expected to be I just want to say one more time that I'm pleased to published. get this information in whatever way. We've already had [1615] confirmation that we're going to get information about the employee loan program and the costs associated K. Corrigan: Late spring the ministry that is respon- with it immediately, and that we're going to get informa- sible for the Olympics…. And there's still a lot of work tion about the costs associated with volunteers. to be done in terms of compiling that information. I'm What I am seeking in this line of questioning is to wondering if this ministry has provided all that informa- get confirmation of very specific information about the tion that is in the report, including the various areas that Olympic tickets that have been used by this ministry or I talked about — tickets and so on. Has this ministry staff and costs associated with that, as well as costs of the already provided all that information to the minister of hosting contracts, meals, hotels and other expenses. state? [1620] I will stop asking questions if this minister will assure Hon. I. Black: I can advise the member that, no, the me either that this ministry will provide that informa- information is still being compiled. I'm advised that the tion to me or I can be assured that that very specific actual cut-off date, I believe, is April 14 for the current ministry-by-ministry information is going to be in- fiscal year, by which time all such information has to cluded in the report of the Olympic secretariat or the be gathered. At that point, I'm advised, it is then com- ministry of whoever is providing it. He said that it's the piled to form the report that the member and I are Olympic secretariat. discussing. Point of Order K. Corrigan: When is the beginning of the fiscal year? (Chair's Ruling) Just remind me. I believe that it's April 1. Is that correct? Is it possible to assume that between April 1 and April 14 The Chair: Before we proceed, I would like to clarify this ministry will still be compiling some of that infor- a matter before this committee. Earlier today the mem- mation to go in that report? ber from Mount Pleasant raised a point of order relating to the propriety of posing questions relating to the cur- Hon. I. Black: Not having the benefit of an account- rent 2009-2010 fiscal year during the debate on Vote ing degree, I'm advised that the process from the first of 43 for the Ministry of Small Business, Technology and April — which is the technical beginning, if you will, of Economic Development, which covers the 2010-11 fis- our next fiscal year — and the 14th…. That is the year cal year. in process, I'm advised, which is basically when our It has been the common practice of Committee of valuable civil servants who are involved in doing that Supply for many years that in pursuing questions relat- transition from one fiscal year to the next…. That is ing to the forthcoming fiscal year or prior, discussions when they lock down on the previous year's expendi- also typically take place regarding the current fiscal year tures, call it a day and embark on the new one. So that's by providing a forum for detailed examination of fis- the explanation for the April 1 to April 14 time frame. cal plans for a ministry. Committee of Supply debate is It's strictly from an accounting procedural standpoint often informed by including comparative information that is standard within government and, frankly, busi- from the present fiscal year. ness as I understand it as well. Although all debate must ultimately relate to Vote 43, From what I've been told, it is safe to say that by the questions relating to ministry expenditures in the 2009- end of March and the first ofA pril, all available informa- 10 fiscal year are not necessarily out of order. tion would be in hand. It gets locked down and properly classified through that two-week period, and then the Debate Continued report can be compiled and produced by the appropri- ate ministry. Hon. I. Black: Just for the member's information, by the way, notwithstanding the Chair's comment, any K. Corrigan: But I do believe it's safe to say that work done after April 1 by accounting folks to close off between April 1 and April 14 there will be some ac- the previous year is actually booked against the previous tivity within this ministry related to the Olympics and year, for what it's worth. that there will be costs related to the Olympics, if it is Notwithstanding that, however, as I mentioned, the compiling information and passing it on. As far as I'm data surrounding our ministry's involvement…. And concerned, questions related to the Olympics are rel- we are one part of it; the business hosting program of evant, and the information that is going to be in those the Olympic Games is still being compiled. That infor- reports is relevant if it's still within the ministry from mation will be forwarded. A report will be issued, and if April 1 to April 14 in any way. the report and the detail within it is not to the member's 3754 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
satisfaction, I would encourage the member to advise have kept private, and that other things that are laid out my office once that is released. within the personal information and privacy protection act, which we have an obligation to follow as govern- K. Corrigan: I appreciate that response, and just ment…. That was the only reference that was intended to finally nail this piece down once and for all…. The through that. It was not meant to throw off the member minister is then confirming that the minister and the opposite. ministry will provide the information about all the ques- tions that I have asked, then, about that? K. Corrigan: Well, I appreciate that. I'm looking for- ward to that information. Hon. I. Black: Again, of course I can't speak for other I only have one more question. The various expenses ministries. I can only speak for my own. You know, we're related to the Olympics that are being compiled and dealing with a bit of a process that's not yet complete are going to be part of this report — is it the minister's when we speak of the success of our Olympic Games understanding that those expenses related to this min- hosting program and our piece of that, but we have it istry are part of the $765 million budget for the Olympics on the record as to what the member's request is, and as by the government? that report is compiled, if that level of detail is not to the member's satisfaction, then I encourage the member to Hon. I. Black: No, it is not my contention that the write to us, and we'll do what we can within the bound- expenses associated with the business hosting program aries of freedom of information at that point in time. of the last couple of months were part of the estimates [1625] provided by the Minister of Finance for staging the Olympic Games and the associated security costs that K. Corrigan: Unfortunately, that sounds to me…. I subsequently followed it. think I heard the words "freedom of information." That brings fear into the heart of the opposition, because we J. Kwan: Mr. Chair, welcome back. I like your tie, by have dealt with freedom of information a lot. Sometimes the way. it's a very difficult process and it comes back with docu- I'd like to just follow up on some questions that my ments that are blacked out, and so on. colleague had opened up with related to Olympic ex- penditures pertaining to the ministry so that I get it Interjection. straight in terms of process here. [1630] K. Corrigan: Time delay, costs — absolutely. The minister first advised that the questions related to I'm going to ask specifically, then: will the minister the 2010 Olympic expenditures would come out of the commit to provide information about those specific '09-10 budget cycle and, therefore, do not pertain to the expenses, and if not, why not? I'm wondering about…. estimates debate discussion before us today. Maybe we need to go through each of these. It has since been clarified that it is entirely appropriate The value of meals and hotels and travel and hosting for these questions to be asked in the estimates process costs. I don't want to be belligerent here, but when I get as pertaining to the historical practices of this House an answer back saying: "If you don't like it, do an FOI…." and that, more to the point, by way of comparison with All I'm looking for is a confirmation that that level of de- the '09-10 budget versus that of the '10-11 budget, one tail is being gathered and that it can be provided to me can certainly find out how budgets have varied, in terms once it is gathered. I'm assuming that all has to be done of expenditures within the ministry. So it is entirely ap- no later than early April, because of what the minister propriate for these questions to be asked and answers to has already said. be gotten. I understand, with the exchange, that a whole host Hon. I. Black: I wasn't meaning to be obtuse with that of questions from my good colleague who is the critic answer and certainly not confrontational. Anything that for the Olympics have been asked around these ex- we do when we respond, whether it's to a member op- penditures. The minister said that he doesn't have that posite or to anyone in the public, is subject to personal information at the ready and that it is being compiled at information and privacy protection. That may have the moment. Let me, then, just direct the minister to a come across as a red herring. It wasn't meant to. couple of areas that I would like to explore. The only reason for not being as confident with the The minister will recall that last year, in November of answer as perhaps the member would like me to be is 2009, I asked the minister for information on hosting that it's still being compiled. I can't presuppose what the activities related to the ministry and the related expendi- format of that report is going to look like. tures. Notwithstanding, somehow, the commitment was Presuming that we're not dealing with proprietary in- made to provide the various information that was asked formation on certain businesses, which is their right to in that set of estimates, and supposedly the informa- Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3755
tion was passed on to my office sometime in February, purchased and who attended these events. Presumably, even though we were expecting to get that information the minister will provide that in his report. in November. Somehow that information didn't arrive at my office, and the minister had his staff deliver that Hon. I. Black: Yes, I can confirm that the report be- document to me today. ing cited, as prepared by the Olympic Games secretariat, I've had a quick review of it, if you will — not a full will be including both Olympic and Paralympic tickets' review of all the information provided but a quick re- use. view of it — and in the attached letter from the minister relating to the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games the J. Kwan: My colleague actually asked this question minister states: as well, but I just want to be clear about events that the "You'll recall that I had confirmed during the estimates debate minister attended and those of ministry staff, if you will. that there are no expenditures planned within our ministry for Presumably, some ministry staff attended some of the any 2010 Olympic tickets. Notwithstanding, the ministry is mak- ing plans to purchase a small block of Paralympic tickets for Olympic and Paralympic Games, utilizing tickets, then, hosting international business leaders along with business lead- purchased by some other source outside of his ministry. ers from British Columbia, and this expenditure would be under First, am I correct in making that assumption? And $9,000." will the minister confirm for me: did he attend some of So we went from "not purchasing any tickets" and that the Olympic and Paralympic events, and if so, which it "doesn't fall within this ministry" to at least one ad- ones? mission, by the minister's own letter to me, that there had been a purchase of tickets. So which is it? Had there Hon. I. Black: I want to make sure I captured all of been no purchase of tickets, or is this letter correct, from the member's question here, so I'll give this a try and see the minister — I guess the original would be signed by if it answers the question. There are two or three parts the minister — that there were purchases of tickets? to it there. My understanding is that a report coming from the Hon. I. Black: I can clear that up very quickly. The Olympic Games secretariat will have a list of the use of question asked of me was pertaining to Olympic tickets. the tickets, both for the Olympics and the Paralympics, These are Paralympic tickets. It is not a nuance, in my and if anyone from government, whether elected or view. They are very different. Not in any way to mislead unelected, used any of those tickets, that will be cited the member or anything else, I draw that distinction. within that report.
J. Kwan: It's sort of like dealing with my daughter. If I J. Kwan: For the minister — we won't have to wait don't ask the right question, I won't get the answers. So for the report to get this information, as he knows be it. Here we are in this chamber doing exactly that. whether or not he attended any of the Olympic events or Well then, let me clarify and re-ask the question. How Paralympic events. So could he please tell us, today, now, many tickets were purchased by way of Olympic and which events he attended — Olympic and Paralympic Paralympic tickets by this ministry as part of the host- events? ing program? [1635] Hon. I. Black: I was very, very proud to play the role that I did in leading up our business-hosting program Hon. I. Black: I can confirm for the member that during the Olympic Games — the 11,000 participants there was money transferred from our ministry to the that participated during the course of those games; the Olympic Games secretariat to purchase some Paralympic hundred-plus events that were hosted, not including any tickets, slightly under the $9,000 quoted in the letter of of the athletic competition; plus the almost 80 different November. They are currently compiling a report as to bilateral meetings that took place with senior members how those tickets were used. of government, particularly ministers, and our visiting business communities from across Canada and, frankly, J. Kwan: So to be clear, then, the ministry bought no from around the world. Olympic tickets but bought Paralympic tickets for the I can confirm to the member that I indeed did have purposes of hosting? the pleasure and the responsibility of hosting during one or two of the sporting events, and I will have specif- Hon. I. Black: The member is correct that we got no ics included in that report when it is released from the Olympic tickets, and the Paralympic tickets purchased Olympic Games secretariat. are the ones that I just described. [1640]
J. Kwan: I'll look forward to receiving the informa- J. Kwan: Why is the minister not telling us today tion on the detailed breakdown of what tickets were which events he attended? Surely he knows that infor- 3756 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
mation. We don't need someone else to compile that ready answered that question." It kind of makes me feel to give it to the public. Why is he not telling the pub- like I'm in the twilight zone or something. lic? He's very proud of his job that he's done, and so he You know, it may be funny to some members, but should share that information with the public. We're I've got to tell you. We're in a fiscal budget where the through the process right now. I think the taxpayers government is coming forward with significant policy have the right to know through this set of estimates pro- decisions that impact British Columbians in a variety cess. Will the minister please answer the question? of ways — whether it be cuts to programs; whether it be taxation policies that impact the small business Hon. I. Black: There is no question that I am very, community negatively; whether it be short funding very proud of the role that I played both through that in the education sector, resulting in school closures business hosting program and, indeed, in the role that or even cancellation of school days, shortening the I serve as minister in this government and for this file. number of days that children have to access the edu- But I am not going to pre-empt the release of a report cation environment. All of those are on the table for that has been committed. It has being compiled, and discussion. that information will be released in accordance with the [1645] time frame that has been set out and discussed here this Here we are in the estimates debate. The purpose of afternoon. the estimates debate is for British Columbians to know and understand the expenditures that have been utilized J. Kwan: The expenditure that came out of his ministry in the '09-10 fiscal year — what they were used for — to attend the games…. Part of that, of course, is that he's and for the public to assess whether or not that money paid by the budgets '09-10 and forward-going,'10-11, as was used wisely and then, going forward for the 2010-11 the minister of the Crown. Not to pre-empt anything but budget year, to determine what direction the ministry simply to get answers related to the expenditures within is going with the expenditure related to this fiscal year's the ministry's budget and that comparison between budget. Then the comparisons should be made between '09-10 and '10-11 on the attendance of these Olympic last year and this year so that we know what the differ- sporting events, what event or events did the minis- ences are in terms of different activities that might be ter attend during the Olympic Games and Paralympic undertaken by the ministry. Games? And who did he attend those events with? Can But no matter how you slice it or how you cut it, I the minister please tell this House? suppose, Mr. Chair, this minister would not answer the questions even though he has the answers at hand. Why Hon. I. Black: Asked and answered, hon. Chair. is he trying to hide this information from the public?
J. Kwan: That's the pattern of this minister, I have Hon. I. Black: You know, the member is in part cor- noted — first, to try to say that any question asked about rect when she talks about patterns of behaviour. There activities related to the ministry…. He will come back are three patterns of behaviour taking place here this and say it is not to do with Budget '10-11. When you afternoon. The first is the effort to circumvent due pro- punch the holes through that argument and establish cess when it's convenient. that those kinds of questions are entirely in order and The second has to do with that of being unreasonable. should be answered, the minister then says: "Oh, oops, You know, it's very clear, and for the people watching sorry. That information is being compiled. I do not at home…. The Olympic Games have just ended. The know the answer to that." Olympic cauldrons are still smouldering, for goodness' Then you punch through that argument and say: sake, and we're sitting here trying to compile the data "Okay, you don't have that information which is being to communicate to the people of British Columbia how compiled, but you do have information that you already they went — from a financial standpoint, you know. have at hand." In fact, one might even argue that nobody The preparation for these games set an enormously else may know in this room, including staff, except for high bar to reach. We completed all the venues for the the minister himself. For those were the activities that first time in Olympic history a year ahead of schedule, the minister himself engaged in. and on or under budget. Never been done before. It was Then he comes back with the answer and says: "Oops, done in British Columbia. sorry. We better wait for that report that needs to be When we think of the performance of our teams dur- compiled that will come at a later date." So you see a pat- ing the games…. I don't just mean the athletes. I mean tern here, Mr. Chair. Certainly, people will see a pattern the people, and never mind the 25,000 blue-coated vol- here with this minister's continuous attempt to not pro- unteers. I'm talking about the men and women who vide answers. When the question is asked clearly around worked extraordinarily long hours to host the world, in that and there is no logical rationale whatsoever for the their different capacities.I 'm very proud that so many of minister not to answer, he'll get up and say: "But I've al- them were part of my team, and they did great. Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3757
But the event is just over. The Paralympics just ended, have in place the chance to work — the process that we and we find ourselves now with data just being compiled have in place to take enormous volumes of information and reports just being prepared. I don't think it's reason- from what is arguably the biggest spectacle that British able, even to the people watching at home who maybe Columbia is going to see this century — and take the understand nothing about government, who under- time to appropriately determine what happened finan- stand nothing even about business…. cially with the programs that, by every measurement we If you just had an event where 250,000 people came can see at this early stage, have been an overwhelming to town, where you had the entire place alive and events success. To take the time and process that information is happening all over the place — government and non- not something for which I will apologize. government events — it's not unreasonable to say: "You I've told the member in the past, and I'll tell the know what? We said we'd get you some reports. The member in the future that if it is not to her satisfaction reports are coming. We've committed to it." We've com- insofar as our ministry has a small piece of that infor- mitted to it publicly. We've committed to it in writing. mation, she's welcome to write and ask for additional We've said what kind of reports they're going to be. information. To start coming to a forum like this and say that my lack of willingness to allow Her Majesty's opposition J. Kwan: Well, so far the government's track record has members to cherry-pick from information that's just be- not exactly been stellar and forthcoming with informa- ing compiled…. When there's such an enormous track tion related to Olympic expenditures. Mr. Chair, you'll record of context not being applied or perhaps not be- recall that in the government's own budget document, ing appreciated, it's not a reasonable line of questioning. even this year it states that the Olympic expenditure is And to suggest that that somehow paints me in a manner somewhere in the area of $760-some million. that has just been done…. You know, I'll let the viewers In reality, we all know that is not the truth. We know at home decide whether that is fair or not, but I don't that the number is far larger than that. Some estimate it think it's reasonable. to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $6 billion to We've made commitments as a government as to re- $8 billion. So far, not so good on that account. porting out on the Olympic Games. We're going to fulfil Then there's the issue around expenditures related those commitments. The data has just been compiled. to tickets and purchasing and attendance by MLAs You know, to suggest and then — as has often been done and government representatives. So far, not so good on by this member — to extrapolate comments made and that account either. The opposition has actually had to rulings made by this Chair and others regarding the FOI that document to get the information. Guess what. purposes of this forum here…. When we got the FOI document, it was whited out as to It was very clear in the ruling made by the Chair — the value of those tickets. It took several question period that comparative-type discussion relative to one budget questions to grill this out of the minister responsible to year versus another brings into play the current fiscal provide that information. year. I'm fine with that.I would not for a moment under- Then there were theC rowns and other agencies within mine or in any way second-guess the ruling of the Chair government, and even at that, we don't know what exactly of this House. the total numbers of tickets purchased are and who at- But to extrapolate that and use that, by extension, to tended. Now the minister says: "Oh, but don't worry; it's suggest that information that is still being compiled for all good. We are going to provide that information to you a consistent presentation across ministries to the people in a report. Surely the report will come." of British Columbia…. It's not reasonable to say that Then the minister says: "But how dare you cherry- my unwillingness to cherry-pick the small little bits and pick to ask questions that might come forward in that pieces that I might know, or that my team might know, report?" Well, it only happens that the questions I'm from a much broader experience and somehow that…. asking pertain to the budget estimates related to this And even within our own team it's still being compiled. ministry, which this minister is responsible for, and to To suggest that not offering up incomplete bits of data hosting activities which this minister, as the minister, at- into the public realm is somehow not being straight- tended as the host. But how dare I ask those questions? forward is a ludicrous notion, Mr. Chair. Do I have the right to ask those questions, Mr. Chair? [1650] By insinuation from this minister, he's saying that I do I've made it very clear to the previous member who not. Really? was asking questions that once these reports are out, if the He is the minister of the Crown. He is responsible for report is not to the detailed satisfaction of the members, these activities. He's proud of these activities, and he at- then I suspect there are a variety of ministries involved tended them. Why can't he tell the public now? What is that they can write and ask for additional information. he hiding? If he has nothing to hide, then tell the public. I would extend that same offer to this member as well, Tell the public which sporting event he attended. Who but I will not apologize for giving the process that we did he attend with? He knows that information. 3758 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
At the ready, right now, he has that information. If he if you will — or wherever the accommodation was be- wanted to provide that information and be honest and ing provided — were located, which agency provided for open and transparent with taxpayers, with members of that, which company provided for that, who stayed in the public and with the opposition, he could provide those accommodations and for how long? that information right now. But oh no, he wouldn't do that. He wouldn't dream of it. The Chair: Committee A will recess for five minutes. I suspect this. Why he wouldn't do that is because he would want to make sure that the report is done in such The committee recessed from 4:59 p.m. to 5:10 p.m. a way that it is sanitized, to make sure the public affairs bureau would have had the chance to comb through that [H. Bloy in the chair.] information and come through with press releases so they can spin the public about all of that. Hon. I. Black: In the member's question, she went on But this should not be anything that needs to be spun. at length suggesting that perhaps I was proposing that If the minister and this government actually believe in she did not have the right to ask questions. I want to transparency and openness, if they believed that the make it patently clear to this House, and to the mem- work they have done is indeed worth its while and worth ber opposite in particular, that I believe it is sacrosanct the taxpayers' money, then be forthcoming. Tell the tax- for any member to stand up and ask whatever question payers, and let them be the judge of that. they like at whatever time they like. That is a tenet of our [1655] democracy. I know that in this budget, the public affairs bur- That doesn't necessarily mean that it is an appropriate eau got a budget increase — some $640,000. So I guess venue or that the structure of the debate is going to be they'd better be put to work to do something. Better spin conducive to giving the answer that a given member, for out a couple more press releases. No doubt there will be whatever political party in whatever jurisdiction of our some coming forward related to this report. country that we happen to be in, will be satisfied. You know, we don't have to necessarily utilize the I wanted to make it very, very clear that at no time in public affairs bureau for every single little thing that the my remarks was I suggesting that the member should be minister does — or the ministry does, for that matter. in any way censored or stifled or muzzled or anything at These are straight-up questions for the minister to which all like that. I think that's just simply not the case. he would not provide answers. By doing that, it harms My remarks were more focused on the fact that I felt nobody except the credibility of the government itself. that the line of questioning, asking for piecemeal infor- It breeds a culture of secrecy that this government has mation when data is being compiled with a pre-existing embarked on and continues down that road. It's in spite commitment to publish a report, was unreasonable. A of the fact that the Premier, when he came to office, had reasonable person listening to the debate and under- said that openness is better than hiddenness. That's a standing that information is being compiled on a very, direct quote from the Premier. That's what he said, yet very large-scale event that just finished, around which the practice of this government, including this min- the government has committed to releasing informa- ister, is anything but open and transparent, and that's tion as soon as it can be compiled and put out to the unfortunate. It's actually unfortunate for the people of public…. British Columbia. Looking for piecemeal information without the full Let me just go on with other discrepancies on this. context of the program…. Again, I remind anyone who The minister won't tell us how many tickets, how many might be viewing at home that our ministry is one of events, which events he attended — the Olympic and several that were involved in the integrated hosting pro- Paralympic events — or who he attended with. Then let gram of the Olympic Games. me ask another area of discrepancy in information that My comment very specifically was that I didn't think had transpired earlier with my colleague. it was reasonable to be as upset as apparently I made Through a freedom-of-information request,I got three the member by not wanting to release the piecemeal in- contracts related to hosting activities and records related formation that we do have, particularly when, frankly, to any of the program dollars or expenses associated with we're still compiling the information ourselves within hosting international guests related to the 2010 games. our own ministry. We are still in the fiscal '09-10 year. In that document, it actually cites approximately…. I be- That year is not complete. TheO lympics are days behind lieve it says that $180,000 in accommodations was being us at this point. We just don't wish to circumvent the provided related to the Olympic Games. due process, no matter how passionate the plea to do so I'm curious with respect to that. With the report that from the members opposite. will be forthcoming, would it outline specifically the The member then went on to ask a question pertaining expenditures related to the hosting activities of this min- to the details of the report on the business hosting pro- istry in their area of accommodations: where the hotels, gram with respect to who the participants were and the Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3759 various costs associated with the participants and spe- Then maybe, just maybe, you get a bunch of blank pa- cifically mentioned the block booking of hotel rooms. pers that won't tell you exactly what happened. I wanted to advise the member that the report being Right here, right now we have an opportunity — right published is being published by the Olympic Games sec- here, right now. That is the reason why the minister is in retariat. I am not aware of the format of that report and this set of estimates, to answer these questions directly how it may provide information, so I cannot speculate and to be held to account. as to whether it will meet the criteria that the member So I'd like to ask the minister again: which sporting has asked about. Olympic events did he attend during the Olympic and I would just ask that if we can link some of these ques- Paralympic Games and with whom? Did he bring dele- tions to the relevance of the 2010 and 2011 year, then I gations there? If he brought delegations there, what did believe that's within the spirit of the vote that's in front they discuss? What business opportunities did he dis- of us in this committee. cuss during perhaps the hockey game — maybe even the men's hockey game at the crucial moment when Sidney J. Kwan: I accept that the minister says he does not Crosby scored in overtime? have all of the information before him related to the What did he discuss at that moment, if he attended ministry's activities in the expenditures of hosting the the game? Or maybe he didn't attend the games. Let us 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games within his min- know. Let the taxpayers of British Columbia know. istry. I accept that. But I do not accept the notion that pertaining to the Hon. I. Black: Hon. Chair, I'll defer to your judgment minister's own activities related to the Olympic and as to the relevance of the question pertaining to 2010- Paralympic Games in terms of which sporting events 2011. he attended and with whom he attended these events…. The member opposite is well known for passionate For him to not provide this information to this House at speeches, and I suspect that it's not the last one I'm go- this time — I do not accept that. ing to hear. The fact remains that no matter how the I do not accept the idea that somehow, somewhere, member may wish to extrapolate remarks made here, to sometime down the road that information would characterize or take in or out of context remarks made be forthcoming from another ministry and another by me or others, it's difficult for me to sit and give the minister on activities that this minister himself has assurance about the contents of a report that I'm not undertaken. writing. It's difficult for me to predict and to assure the [1715] member opposite of her satisfaction with a report that I I do not accept the idea that this report that will be haven't seen. forthcoming somewhere, somehow, sometime down [1720] the line may not have all the detailed information which It's been very consistent…. Again, I can't help but won- the opposition is requesting at this time. dering whether the people at home are shaking their heads I do not accept the idea that when that report sur- at this point, because I think it's…. They were, according faces, and if it does not provide the detailed information to all the data we can see, almost to a person, every one of that we're seeking, that we should, therefore, seek it them watching some or all of these great Olympic Games. again. No doubt when that comes around, we will be They know that the glow that they're feeling from these in yet another set of estimate processes, and no doubt very recent activities is still there. As I've suggested earlier, the minister will sit in his chair and get up and say, "It the cauldrons have just gone out. has nothing to do with this budget cycle," and play this As part of the preparing for these Olympic Games and game all over again. part of getting ready to report to the public, we made it I do not accept what the minister is saying, and it is very clear that we were ready to share information with not acceptable for the people of British Columbia. We the public. That report is being compiled at the moment. have said over and over again on this side of the House The work is underway. The data is still being compiled. that for the games to be successful, the government It's not finalized yet.O nce it is finalized it will be shared must also be accountable in providing the information with the member opposite. to members of the public. I appreciate the fact that they might not suit the pol- The minister says: "Oh, but don't worry. It's forth- itical purpose of the member opposite, but there is coming." Then in the same breath, he says: "But maybe nothing being hidden in this process. It is simply be- not in the scope in which you're looking for, and if that ing compiled. When it's ready the information will be happens, you can always ask again." released, and the member will have access to the infor- Well, there's a saying that kind of goes something mation she is seeking. like this: until the cows come home, we could be ask- ing these questions — FOI'ing them, upon thousands of The Chair: The questions that you're asking are not dollars being put forward, upon time delays and delays. necessarily out of order, but the question has been asked 3760 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
on a number of occasions and has been answered, maybe Hon. I. Black: I appreciate the member's efforts to not to what you would like to hear, but the question has redefine my job description on the fly as it suits her in been answered in a number of different ways also.I f you a given line of discussion or debate, and it goes back would like to continue on with a new line of questioning. and forth in several different ways, but I don't have that Thank you, Member. luxury. [1725] J. Kwan: Well, I'll certainly continue to ask, Mr. Chair, The fact of the matter is, as has been stated many and thank you for that guidance. I appreciate, as well, times here today, there is a report being compiled on all the clarity on the fact that these questions are not out of the ticketing surrounding the Olympic Games. That is order at all. I appreciate that very much. not new information for the member opposite. The minister answered my question with this re- The timing of that report is expected to be in the sponse — that it may well be, he says, that he's not spring, so we're not talking about years and years of de- responsible for the report that's coming out. He's sim- lay. I mean, it's not unreasonable for anybody watching ply going to be providing data to the ministry who is at home to consider that putting out a report on some responsible for compiling the report. How they sort of fairly specific information around an event that was decipher all of that, how they churn out that informa- enormous in scope — an event of which we're also very tion and data and what information and data they churn proud, at least certainly on our side of the House, having out is their responsibility. Basically, that's the response never, ever failed in our support for it, for John Furlong of the minister. or any of the events that subsequently played out so tre- Well, then that's precisely why I'm asking these ques- mendously in front of 3½ billion people…. tions. The minister, by his own admission and, as I But you know, as I've said several times now today, would anticipate, when the report comes out and there I'm not going to circumvent the process that's under- will be lacking, I suspect…. It will be lacking in informa- way. The member can make dramatic speeches and try tion by way of details around this expenditure related to to redefine what my job is here, but unfortunately, that the Olympic and Paralympic Games. Then there will be doesn't change the due process that's underway. We've this whole dance that the government will engage in, in committed to producing a report. We are gathering the not providing the information. And then when asked of information for the report. the minister, he will refer you to that report — sort of Anyone watching at home would consider it most like the HST debate we just had earlier. reasonable to allow that process to complete. We're When I asked the minister about what reports and what days — days — since the conclusion of those fantastic studies this ministry has done related to the impacts of Olympic Games. We will get that information together. the HST pertaining to the small business sector, he re- It has been committed by the ministry associated with sponded by saying: "But that's not my responsibility. That's the Olympics. Our ministry, again, for the benefit of the Minister of Finance's responsibility. So to that end we those just tuning in, contributes to that report, and we haven't done any of those reports." Then he washes his will look forward to that report. hands and says: "It's not me. It's someone else." As I've said to the member, I've made the offer that if Just as easily as he has done that with the HST issue, the information contained within it is not to her satis- this minister could very well come back and say: "That faction, then she can advise me of that, and we'll try to report? I didn't put the report out. That information…. improve her level of satisfaction with the information I didn't write the report. It's some other minister who is contained therein. responsible for it." So hence, precisely why we're here today and precisely J. Kwan: The minister says if the report, when it comes why I'm asking these very specific questions of the min- out, if I'm not satisfied with the information contained ister about his own actions: which Olympic sporting in it, that I could advise him of it. events and Paralympic sporting events did he attend? With whom did he attend these events, and what dis- Well, let me say this. Will the minister commit today cussions took place during these events to advance the that he will actually provide the information that we re- economic opportunities and investment trade oppor- quested if it is not contained in the report, stand-alone? tunities for British Columbia? Will he commit today that he will provide that informa- That way, the minister can't say that some other tion in a timely fashion if the report does not provide for minister created the answers. It would be, as they say, the level of details that we're asking here right now in straight from the horse's mouth. He can define it and this set of estimates? contextualize it in any way that he wants to and provide that information straight up for British Columbians, if Hon. I. Black: Providing assurance on something I he wants to be accountable and open and transparent. I haven't seen yet is a speculative exercise that I'm not go- give him that opportunity now. ing to engage in here. There is subjectivity when one reads Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3761
a report as to whether it does or does not contain infor- within this ministry, is to push those agendas forward and mation to a given individual's satisfaction. I'm not going to capitalize on those interests and to help them evolve to get into that line of debate. I've made it clear to the into meaningful investments into British Columbia for member that I'm not trying to shut down dialogue on the the benefit of allB ritish Columbians across the province topic. Our ministry owns a very small piece of this par- and across different industries. ticular report. I look forward to seeing the report as we continue to bask in the success of the Olympic Games. J. Kwan: Well, then, let me actually put the question Frankly, as this is time, I would imagine, to focus to the minister in another way, because the minister — especially with the staff I have here — on the 2010- said that he could not comment on a report that he has 2011 budget year, our work around the Olympics is just not yet seen, so therefore he cannot say whether or not beginning. I look at the economic development oppor- whatever information we're asking for would be in it or tunities that have fallen out of the games, with respect to not, nor could he commit to the requests that if the in- the opportunities and the meetings and the discussions formation is not there, will he actually personally ensure and listening to the various members of the business that he answers those questions directly with the oppos- community who flew here from great distances, some of ition? He wouldn't commit to any of that. them across oceans, who sat and listened to us describe So let me put it another way, then, to the minis- everything that British Columbia had to offer and used ter. Will he endeavour to do this, to make sure that the phrases like: "I didn't know that." ministry who is putting together this report will answer In one particular case the individuals turned to us the following questions related to the Olympic and the and said: "We have to look at British Columbia more Paralympic Games: what events did the minister attend? closely." We had one individual who controls a tremen- What staff from the ministry attended these games? dous capital investment budget on an annual basis turn What is the stated purpose of them attending? Why was to us. When we described the tax-friendly policies that it necessary? What guests did they take to these games, now exist in British Columbia and the efforts that our or what guests did they meet with at these games? Did government has undergone to overcome the difficulties the minister attend these sporting events, Olympic and of the earlier part of the last decade…. Paralympic events, with any other MLAs, and how does We found ourselves in a position where they were that relate to the work of the ministry? looking to us and using the phrase "game changer," talk- What is the perceived outcome of benefit according to ing about what we have done to this province in terms the minister's definition? What expenses were incurred of the economic opportunities and the investment at- at these events — inclusive tickets, meals, hotels, travel tractiveness, in terms of people wanting to invest here and any other costs? The tickets that the ministry had and create jobs here and grow communities here. They gotten…. Did any of the tickets provided to the minister describe those efforts as being game-changing. or his staff go unused for whatever reason? We are following up on all those conversations, and These are some of the detailed questions and the level as we go forward from this point and execute our 2010- of detail that we would like the report to show for every 2011 budget, there is much work ahead. It's work that ministry but certainly for this ministry and this minister. we are ready to do. We have the trained people to do it. So will he rise up in this House today and say: "Yes, I will They have been focusing inward as the world came to endeavour to make sure that the report answers every see us, and now we will resume our outward focus as an single one of those questions"? investment development and an economic development [1735] arm of government. [1730] Hon. I. Black: As mentioned earlier today, I'm very, We will take advantage of these Olympic Games, and very proud of the involvement I had through the hosting we will focus those efforts externally to the benefit of program of the Olympic Games, and that included the British Columbians, not just in the Lower Mainland but responsibility of hosting at Olympic events, particularly across British Columbia and across the different sectors the sporting and specifically the sporting events. That's that we are so proud of today and in which we would not anything resembling a secret at all. like to see great growth tomorrow, the green technol- What the member is asking me to do…. I realize the ogy sector being just one example — the new media and latitude being given vis-à-vis this line of questioning. the wireless area of our technology sector. All of these While it bears no line of sight, as far as I can see, to 2011 companies and all of the individuals involved in these budget estimates, I think that it is a bit of a stretch to ask sectors have seen British Columbia in a new light thanks me to comment at this stage on — given that it's been to the efforts involved in the Olympic Games. clear from earlier today that my ministry did not pur- As we go forward in the '10-11 year and execute on chase any Olympic tickets…. the budget plans that we have, our objective, the respon- The member is asking me about expenditures that did sibility inherent on the shoulders of the public servants not take place within my ministry, asking me to comment 3762 British Columbia Debates Thursday, March 25, 2010
on specific breakdowns pertaining to ticket use when it J. Kwan: Well, the minister says he's proud of the was divulged very clearly and confirmed very clearly ear- games, and it is true that the cities of Vancouver, Whistler lier that this ministry did not purchase in '09-10 — and and Richmond, the participating cities, did a fabulous nor is it planning to in '10-11 — any Olympic tickets. job. There's no doubt about that. But we've said it over The request that's being asked of me is about an ex- and over again — that for these games to be a success, penditure that is associated with another ministry, truly deemed to be a success, the government needs to number one. So logically, Chair, I'm not sure how I can be accountable and open and transparent. handle that one, and she's asking me once again to make So far, as I've said earlier, the record has not been commitments vis-à-vis a report that is not being auth- exactly stellar on this account. The minister just said: ored by this ministry, a draft of which, to my knowledge, "Oh, but I can't answer for other ministries related to has not been prepared because information is still being these questions." Well, I'm not asking for the minister compiled. I can't even comment on having seen a draft to answer for other ministries. I'm not even asking the of what will be the report that is released. minister, to a certain extent with some of my questions, I'm afraid I am left with little option but to say that to answer for his staff. we have, as government, committed to producing a [1740] report on the ticketing of the Olympic Games. That I'd be happy to start from here, for the minister to commitment stands firm. Nothing has changed in that answer questions for himself related to the Olympic commitment. The timing of it has not changed, and I Games and the sporting events — which ones he at- have not been advised of anything by any of my staff tended. Why did he attend them? Who did he attend — that there's anything resembling a delay in the gather- these games with and for what purpose? I'd be happy for ing of that information or the subsequent publication of him to come forward with that piece of information at that report. this moment in time. So no, I have no reason to stand here and be con- If the minister was truly proud of the games, as he cerned that with the commitment made vis-à-vis states that he is, then he should be forthcoming with this sharing the information around the ticketing strategy of information. He has nothing to hide. He has nothing to the Olympic Games — again, published by a ministry worry about. But clearly, the way in which this is going, which is not mine — there's any cause for concern there the minister is not proud enough to be upfront with the on the timing. But I am not in a position to comment public with this information. on the content and start making assurances about what It only leads one to wonder why. Why is he trying to will or will not be included in that. That is a question for hide this information? What is there to hide at all? Why another minister. Whether the Chair sees fit to entertain doesn't he just tell us? Then we'll move on with other those vis-à-vis the 2010-2011 budget year…. I would questions. leave that to your judgment at that point in time. I'm left with…. Once again we find ourselves seem- The minister also just said that his ministry didn't buy ing to be defending the Olympic Games and everything tickets, but as pointed out earlier by his own admission, they had to offer. I find that that's so unfortunate — to in a document that he just gave to me this afternoon be there so shortly after the Olympic flames went out. It from his staff, they bought tickets for the Paralympic seems like there's a rush to throw a bucket of cold water Games. We don't need to belabour that point. I just want on the smouldering cauldron of the Olympic Games. to know the truth. I just want to know the truth about Well, that is not the belief of this government. It is our what's happened. belief, frankly — pardon the pun — to fan the flame, if As it pertains to this 2010-11 set of budget estimates you will, of opportunity that has come from this and to and how it relates to these questions, I would like to pursue them accordingly within the lines of business that know how much money was expended for the hosting this ministry has, lines of business which are nicely articu- of the Olympic and Paralympic Games by this ministry lated in very large binders pertaining to 2010 and 2011. in a comparison of this fiscal year's budget to that of last Those challenges are not small, but I'm confident in year's. Then, related to that, in the attendance of those the people we have. I'm confident in their experience activities, who went? Then, more specifically for the leading into the Olympic Games and going back many, minister himself, what sporting events did he attend? many years in terms of the economic development focus The minister could be forthcoming with that. of government contained within this ministry, that the On the question around these events and the costs as- people are in a position to capitalize on those. sociated with them, let me ask this question. For all of the If the member would like to ask me questions about Olympic events which the minister attended — ticketed those, I'd be delighted to share with her the view that events, that is, for the Olympic and Paralympics…. Did we have as to how we can truly leverage what has been he attend all these events as a minister of the Crown, and a spectacular event that was enjoyed by almost all of the therefore, all those tickets were paid for by an agency of British Columbians that we have around us. government? Thursday, March 25, 2010 British Columbia Debates 3763
Hon. I. Black: Again, the pattern of the member I can tell the member this. I made reference, and it opposite is to give a bit of a preamble before kind of has been released by government, that during the course changing tack. I want to be very careful of my choice of these Olympic Games, our hosting program, beyond of words here. The member opposite, in her preamble, the 11,000 participants that it involved, had over a hun- made reference to the notion that there was some sort dred different events. Those events aren't the sporting of an admission made pertaining to the purchase of events. Those were the various meetings, round tables Paralympic tickets and also made reference to wanting and gatherings of our international guests with our lo- to uncover truth. cal companies and with our local entrepreneurs in [1745] looking to establish more business being done in British That is dangerously close to suggesting that we have at Columbia. Those events started very early in the mor- some time this afternoon not answered questions truth- ning to very early at night. fully. I know that that's probably not what the member The bulk of my time spent during theO lympic Games, was implying, but I want to be very clear with this House frankly, was engaging in as many of those events as I that I take great exception to any suggestion that I did could get to between breakfast and midnight. I believe not answer questions truthfully or accurately. that it was about 19-odd days in a row, if I'm not mis- Pertaining to the Olympic Games, I want to go on taken. To that end, I can answer this one piece of the to say that yes, it is very true that the report pertaining member's question very specifically, which is that I did to the use of Olympic tickets and Paralympic tickets not attend Olympic events outside of my official hosting is forthcoming from a ministry other than mine. I responsibilities of the government of British Columbia. have made it clear that within that report, there will Frankly, I didn't have time. be information about the Olympic events that I at- I had to enjoy the glow in the streets as I ran from tended on behalf of government as I very proudly one meeting to the other through the crowded streets of participated in helping show off the best of what our Robson, both before and after various hockey games with province has to offer and in developing the relation- the different countries involved.I t was thrilling, and I was ships that one does in such a context and in such an very envious of those on the streets, frankly, but duty called, environment. and duty was done. I'm very, very proud of the effort of my I won't for a moment apologize or suggest that there team associated with that, and I look forward to sharing was anything untoward about fulfilling my responsibil- more on these topics with the House in the days to come. ities in that regard. I will not…. As I've said here, I am not Having said that, I move that the committee rise, re- going to pre-empt the release of that report — not here port progress and ask leave to sit again. and not Monday and not Tuesday and not Wednesday of next week, as far as we can go on this line of question- Motion approved. ing. It's been a couple of hours now. That's just not going to happen. The committee rose at 5:48 p.m.
Hansard Services
Director Jo-Anne Kern
Manager of Print Production Robert Sutherland
Post-Production Team Leader Christine Fedoruk
Editorial Team Leaders Laurel Bernard, Janet Brazier, Robyn Swanson
Senior Editor — Galleys Heather Bright
Technical Operations Officers Pamela Holmes, Emily Jacques, Dan Kerr
Indexers Shannon Ash, Julie McClung, Robin Rohrmoser
Researchers Jaime Apolonio, Mike Beninger
Editors Anton Baer, Aaron Ellingsen, Deirdre Gotto, Margaret Gracie, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Linda Guy, Barb Horricks, Bill Hrick, Paula Lee, Nicole Lindsay, Donna McCloskey, Bob McIntosh, Anne Maclean, Constance Maskery, Jill Milkert, Lind Miller, Lou Mitchell, Karol Morris, Dorothy Pearson, Erik Pedersen, Peggy Pedersen, Janet Pink, Amy Reiswig, Heather Warren, Arlene Wells, Glenn Wigmore
Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker.
Printing Agent Crown Publications, Queen's Printer for British Columbia 563 Superior St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 9V7 Toll-Free: 1-800-663-6105 telephone: (250) 387-6409 Fax: (250) 387-1120 e-mail: [email protected]
Rates Single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $396. GST extra.
www.leg.bc.ca
Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet. Question Period podcasts are available on the Internet.