T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

HANSARD

Douglas, Tuesday, 20th April 2021

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:

www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.

Volume 138, No. 19

ISSN 1742-2256

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2021 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Present:

The President of Tynwald (Hon. S C Rodan OBE)

In the Council: The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt Rev. P A Eagles), The Attorney General (Mr J L M Quinn QC), Miss T M August-Hanson, Mr P Greenhill, Mr R W Henderson, Mrs K A Lord-Brennan, Mrs M M Maska, Mrs J P Poole-Wilson and Mrs K Sharpe with Mr J D C King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. J P Watterson) (Rushen); The Chief Minister (Hon. R H Quayle) (Middle); Mr J R Moorhouse (Arbory, Castletown and Malew); Hon. A L Cannan and Hon. T S Baker (Ayre and Michael); Mr C C Thomas (Douglas Central); Mrs C L Barber and Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East); Hon. D J Ashford MBE and Mr G R Peake (Douglas North); Mrs C S B Christian and Mr S P Quine (Douglas South); Mr M J Perkins and Mrs D H P Caine (Garff); Hon. R K Harmer and Hon. G G Boot (Glenfaba and Peel); Mr W C Shimmins (Middle); Mr R E Callister and Ms J M Edge (Onchan); Hon. A J Allinson and Mr L L Hooper (Ramsey); Hon. L D Skelly (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.

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Business transacted

Leave of absence granted ...... 1751 2. Papers laid before the Court ...... 1751 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 1754 1. COVID-19 policy – Evidence available only to CoMin ...... 1754 2. Vaccination passports – Access for Island residents ...... 1756 3. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee: Grandparents’ Rights – CoMin report on family mediation ...... 1758 4. Government’s banking business – Date for tendering ...... 1758 5. Coroners’ fees – Re-examining system...... 1759 6. Construction Isle of Man – Progress and funding support ...... 1760 7. NSC flumes – Resumed functioning ...... 1762 8. Summer Term – Priorities for students ...... 1764 9. Drugs or alcohol – Support for those under influence ...... 1770 10. Manannan Court – Increasing bed capacity ...... 1773 11. Patient transfer contract – Tendering ...... 1775 Question 12 to be answered in writing ...... 1780 13. Legal representation at Prison – Black regime operation ...... 1780 14. DoI recycling areas – Number; bins for plastics ...... 1782 15. Carraghan and Injebreck Hill footpaths – Restoring public access ...... 1786 16. Lobbying – Government policy ...... 1789 17. Island’s regulatory framework – CoMin report and review of regulation ...... 1792 18. IOMG COVID-19 Caring Responsibilities: Guidelines – Public service application ...... 1794 19. Positive COVID-19 tests – Recording and publishing ...... 1796 Bills for signature ...... 1797 20. Manx Health Service resiliency – Threats to public safety ...... 1797 21. Vaccination programme – GP surgery statistics ...... 1799 Questions for Written Answer ...... 1805 12. Domestic abuse victims – Discreet portal...... 1805 22. International aid – Budget allocation and spending ...... 1805 23. COVID-19 cases in Government – Since 1st January 2021 ...... 1806 24. COVID-19 Prevention, Suppression and Mitigation Strategy – Key factors; effective communication ...... 1806 25. COVID-19 mortality rates – Risk comparisons ...... 1807 26. COVID-19 – Government policy on further lockdowns ...... 1808 27. 2015 Gas Agreement – Government responsibility for surviving clauses ...... 1809 28. General Election 2021 – Candidates’ expenses ...... 1810 29. Bona Vacantia fund – Projects funded since 2016 and cost ...... 1812 ______1747 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

30. Bona Vacantia fund – Amount added since 2016 and current total ...... 1812 31. Single Legal Entity Committee Report – Laying before Tynwald and next steps ...... 1813 32. Property service charge debt – Legal options for recourse ...... 1813 33. Childcare during lockdown – Provision at NSC ...... 1814 34. COVID-19 and schools – Recent return of children; ongoing considerations ...... 1815 35. Home improvement grants and loans – Reintroduction; use of climate change funds ...... 1816 36. Off-Island psychiatric intensive care – Residents receiving in 2018-20; cost to DHSC ...... 1816 37. Learning Disability Residential Facility places – Cost per annum ...... 1817 38. Learning Disability Residential Facility – Respite cost per night ...... 1817 39. Hospital waiting lists – Details at 31st March 2021 ...... 1817 40. COVID-19 hospital admissions – Breakdown by age group ...... 1818 41. COVID-19 hospital admissions – Number two weeks after vaccination ...... 1819 42. Recycling bins in south – Dates emptied since 1st January 2021 ...... 1819 43. Horse tramway – Budget for completion...... 1820 44. River maintenance by DoI – Details for last five years ...... 1821 45. Air conditioning in Government buildings – Servicing policy and records ...... 1822 46. Landlord-tenant disputes – Introduction of dispute resolution body ...... 1822 47. DoI conflict of interest over gas – Public bodies’ consumption versus regulation ...... 1822 48. Electricity costs for public bodies – Charges paid and volumes consumed ...... 1823 49. Sea and air services provision – Objectives and constraints in negotiations ...... 1824 50. River maintenance by MUA – Details for last five years ...... 1824 51. Manx Gas customer charges recovery – OFT protection of gas consumers since 1st January 2021 ...... 1827 52. ERG COVID-19 schemes – Allocations in 2020-21 by sector ...... 1828 53. Hogget pricing policy – Supply to Isle of Man and Liverpool markets ...... 1829 54. CPA Recommended Benchmarks for Democratic Legislatures – Publication of Isle of Man assessment ...... 1829 55. 2019-20 and 2020-21 reports – Publication date ...... 1829 56. Tynwald Auditor General – PAC report on recruitment and appointment ...... 1830 The Court adjourned at 1.02 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m...... 1830 Order of the Day ...... 1831 4. COVID-19 – Statement by the Chief Minister ...... 1831 5. Tynwald Standing Orders Committee – First Report 2020-21 – Management of Business – Report received and recommendations approved ...... 1837 6. Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee – First Report 2020-21: Legal Services – Debate commenced ...... 1867 The Court adjourned at 5.23 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.52 p.m...... 1875

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Announcement of Royal Assent ...... 1875 Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee – Debate continued – Motion carried ...... 1875 7. Tynwald Management Committee – Third Report 2020-21: Tynwald Honours – Report received and recommendation approved ...... 1886 8. European Union and Trade Act 2019 – Food Information (Amendment) Regulations 2021 approved ...... 1889 9. European Union and Trade Act 2019 – Water Pollution (Bathing Water Standards and Objectives) Scheme approved ...... 1891 10. Highways Act 1986 – Highway Diversion (Footway No. 90, Ramsey) Order 2021 approved ...... 1901 11. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 2021 approved ...... 1902 12. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved ...... 1903 13. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved...... 1904 14. Adoption of Confederation of Passenger Transport Code by Bus Vannin – Debate commenced ...... 1905 Suspension of Standing Orders to complete Item 14 – Motion lost ...... 1909 The Court adjourned at 8.01 p.m...... 1910

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Tynwald

The Court met at 10.30 a.m.

[MR PRESIDENT in the Chair]

The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald.

The President: Moghrey mie, good morning, Hon. Members.

5 Members: Moghrey mie, Mr President.

The President: In the absence of the Lord Bishop I shall lead us in prayer.

PRAYERS The President

Leave of absence granted

The President: Hon. Members, as we thankfully resume physical sittings of the Court (A Member: Hear, hear.) I can announce leave of absence from this sitting has been given to 10 Hon. Member Mrs Corlett, Mr Cregeen, the Lord Bishop for this morning and to Mr Mercer.

2. Papers laid before the Court

The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.

The Clerk: Ta mee cur roish y Whaiyl ny pabyryn enmyssit ayns ayrn jees jeh’n Chlaare Obbyr. I lay before the Court the papers listed at Item 2 of the Order Paper. 15 European Union and Trade Act 2019 Food Information (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0088] [MEMO]

Water Pollution Act 1993 Water Pollution (Bathing Water Standards and Objectives) Scheme 2021 [SD No 2021/0086] [MEMO]

Highways Act 1986 Highway Diversion (Footway No. 90, Ramsey) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0052] [MEMO]

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Social Security Act 2000 Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0097] [MEMO]

Customs and Excise Act 1993 Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0100] [MEMO] Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0091]

Report

Tynwald Management Committee Third Report for the Session 2020-21: Tynwald Honours [PP No 2021/0052]

The remaining items are not the subject of motions or debates on the Order Paper

Items subject to negative resolution

Interpretation Act 2015 Harbour (Fees) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0032] [MEMO]

Value Added Tax Act 1996 Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Reduced Rate) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0104] [MEMO]

Documents subject to no procedure

Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 Notice by Treasury – Coronavirus (COVID-19) Manx Earnings Replacement Allowance (No. 5) [GC No 2021/0056] Notice by Treasury – Coronavirus (COVID-19) Manx Earnings Replacement Allowance (No. 4) [GC No 2021/0026]

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Business Support Scheme 2020 Notice by Treasury – Coronavirus (COVID-19) COVID-19 Salary Support Scheme: Excluded Sectors (Paragraph 3 as amended by SD 2020/0305) [GC No 2021/0024] Notice by Treasury – COVID-19 Salary Support Scheme: Increase in Maximum Amount of Grant (Paragraph 7(2) as amended by SD 2020/0358 and SD 2021/0084) [GC No 2021/0062]

Manx Care Act 2021 Manx Care Staff Transfer Scheme 2021 [SD No 2021/0113] [MEMO]

Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 as amended Direction by the Council of Ministers under Regulation 30 of the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 relating to Educational Institutions [GC No 2021/0057] Direction by the Council of Ministers under Regulation 30 of the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 relating to child care service providers [GC No 2021/0058] Direction by the Council of Ministers under Regulation 30 of the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 relating to closure of premises [GC No 2021/0059] Prohibition Notice by the Council of Ministers under regulation 26C of the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 (exceptions from regulation 26B: general) ______1752 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

relating to the circumstances in which a person may not leave his or her home [GC No 2021/0060] Direction by Council of Ministers under Part 7A of the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 relating to the circumstances in which persons may not gather together outside of their household [GC No 2021/0061] Direction by Council of Ministers under Part 7A of the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 relating to the circumstances in which persons may not gather together outside of their household [GC No 2021/0063] Prohibition Notice by the Council of Ministers under regulation 26C of the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 (exceptions from regulation 26B: general) relating to the circumstances in which a person may not leave his or her home [GC No 2021/0064] Direction by Council of Ministers under Part 7A of the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 relating to the circumstances in which persons may not gather together outside of their household [GC No 2021/0065]

Social Security Act 2000 Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 5) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0117] [MEMO]

Social Security Pensions Act 1975 (an Act of Parliament) Pensions Increase (Annual Review) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0110]

Bank Holidays Act 1989 Bank Holidays (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0124]

Water Pollution (Bathing Water Standards and Objectives) Scheme 2021 – Policy for the designation of bathing waters in the Isle of Man [GD No 2021/0011]

Reports

Financial Provisions and Currency Act 2011 Annual Report 2020 [GD No 2020/0019]

Council of Ministers Response to the Tynwald Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee – First Report for the Session 2020-2021 on Legal Services [GD No 2021/0010]

Equality Act 2017 Statutory Code of Practice on Services, Public Functions and Associations [GD No 2021/0019]

Isle of Man Financial Intelligence Unit Annual Report 2019-2021 [GD No 2020/0015]

Tynwald Commissioner for Administration Statement of Reasons for Failure to Investigate a Complaint TCA 1824 [TCA 1824]

Tynwald Commissioner for Administration Report on case TCA 1904 [TCA 1904]

Public Accounts Committee First Report for the Session 2020-21 – Salisbury Street [PP No 2021/0012]

Public Accounts Committee Second Report for the Session 2020-21 – Tynwald Auditor General Governance Proposal [PP No 2021/0080]

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Questions for Oral Answer

CHIEF MINISTER

1. COVID-19 policy – Evidence available only to CoMin

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:

What evidence the Council of Ministers has which other Tynwald Members and the public do not have when it makes decisions regarding the Borders and Stay Responsible policy frameworks and the Government’s approach to living with COVID-19 and in considering the risks and different scenarios arising from the evolving local and global COVID-19 pandemic situations?

The President: We turn to our Order Paper, Questions for Oral Answer. I call the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 20 I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister what evidence the Council of Ministers has which other Tynwald Members and the public do not have when it makes decisions regarding the Borders and Stay Responsible policy frameworks and the Government’s approach to living with COVID-19 and in considering the risks and different scenarios arising from the evolving local and global COVID-19 pandemic situations? 25 The President: Thank you. And, Hon. Members, please feel free to remove jackets if you wish. I call on the Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. 30 The Council of Ministers considers a range of evidence when making decisions relating to COVID-19. This is provided by officers in papers and in verbal update to Council. Papers may cite references from academia and other sources as required to ensure that they are informed and provide Ministers with an up-to-date position on relevant matters. Often due to the complexity of the pace of the evolving situation and the breadth of global 35 information, it is not possible to fully gather all sources into one written place, and instead officers will discuss with Ministers the latest thinking that has come to light recently from calls, from papers published and from other credible sources. As Members will be aware, Government has also asked the University of Warwick to analyse data relating to the Island and provide modelling based on the work they have done for the United 40 Kingdom Government, to help inform decisions in relation to COVID-19. It has always been the intention to share publicly the final findings of the University of Warwick team when it is available and understood. Internal modelling has been provided at various points during the pandemic by the clinical team at Noble’s Hospital. Again, this is intended to help to inform policy and primarily ensure that 45 our health systems are primed to best respond on what might happen in a particular scenario. As with any models, no matter how good they are, they will always have limitations and only certain limited scenarios, but they can help to understand certain impacts of certain actions. Much of the decisions Council of Ministers have to make have to be balanced across a wide range of factors: the pressures on our economy, our society and our health systems are primary 50 considerations that Council needs to consider. No matter what other countries are doing or no

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matter what certain sources suggest as an appropriate response, the pandemic has shown us there will often be competing views and competing opinions amongst experts worldwide. Council has to consider a far more complex and unique situation on the Island here so as to ensure, as far as possible, all decisions are made in the best interests of the Island. Government 55 shares a wide range of data publicly, including the recently reformatted COVID-19 dashboard and the vaccination dashboard. Council also provides regular updates to Members where officers are available to answer questions, often referring to data and evidence from various organisations and institutions to provide the latest thinking on responses to COVID-19. Where there are opportunities to increasingly publish information, I am happy to commit to do so. 60 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Chief Minister for that comprehensive 65 response. I welcome the transfer of information to the professor in Warwick University. Has any information being transferred to Warwick University that is not available to Members and to the Manx public?

70 The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am not aware of any information that is not available to members of the public or Tynwald Members, Mr President. There may be some sensitive hospital data which I am not aware of that 75 was sent to them, and I will circulate the answer, if there is any difference, to all Hon. Members. Thank you.

The President: Further supplementary, Mr Thomas.

80 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Chief Minister agree with me then that there was no reference in his Answer to any data that Council of Ministers has, basically, which we do not have, so therefore it is just that the Council of Ministers is better able to interpret the data, understand it and make conclusions from it than Tynwald Members and the Manx public? 85 The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. An awful lot of the comment in the Council of Ministers, Mr President, is based on data which 90 has been published and the latest reports from around the world, where Council of Ministers have the opportunity to ask pertinent questions of the experts who attend the Council of Ministers for the COVID element of that briefing. And those experts are available to all Tynwald Members to ask when we do a briefing or should any Tynwald Member wish to contact them separately, Mr President. 95 The President: Thank you. Supplementary, Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 100 I would just like to ask the Chief Minister, you did comment in your response there that there were other credible sources. I am just wondering what the other credible sources are that provide you with information? ______1755 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Also, with regard to Warwick doing the analysis of data, you said that they also do it for the UK. Would they not have been doing that work anyway and the Isle of Man could have then just 105 requested it? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Chief Minister.

110 The Chief Minister: Thank you. The latter part first, Mr President, Warwick University: obviously the Isle of Man is different so we have to give different data and they will interpret that data. Yes, they will have the basic formula based on what they have done for the United Kingdom, Mr President, but a small island is going to be different to a much bigger UK of 60-plus million people. 115 Regarding other evidence that we look at, Mr President, obviously we get verbal reports from the CEO of Health and Social Care, we get reports from our borders team, but we also look at reports that the World Health Organization have published and then we as Ministers will ask the relevant officers present to give an interpretation on how that would work for the Island compared with other jurisdiction, and, of course we regularly have updates. For example, myself 120 and the Chief Minister of Guernsey, have a fortnightly meeting to discuss problems on both our Islands. Thank you.

2. Vaccination passports – Access for Island residents

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chief Minister:

What plans he has to enable Island residents travelling to other areas of the British Isles to get access to vaccination passports and other documentation to show their vaccination status to allow access to venues?

The President: Question 2, Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, Mr Moorhouse.

125 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister what plans he has to enable Island residents travelling to other areas of the British Isles to get access to vaccination passports and other documentation to show their vaccination status to allow access to venues? Thank you. 130 The President: Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. Officers have had initial discussions with their UK counterparts and other member countries of 135 the Common Travel Area regarding vaccination certification. The aim of these preliminary discussions was to better understand what is being considered from a technical point of view and the policy implications around the development and use of certification. In terms of data sharing, an individual’s vaccination status is recorded with their GP within the EMIS system. This is a system which belongs to the individual practice. In the UK there is an NHS 140 app that can take data from this system and an individual can then see information on their mobile device as to whether or not they have had a vaccine and whether they have had both doses. The

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GP has to sign up to provide the information to the app and also would need to provide the vaccination data specifically. More broadly speaking, the topic of vaccination passports is something which is being 145 considered globally. Naturally, the requirements for Isle of Man residents in relation to all aspects of vaccination certification is a part of that thinking. Considerably more thought and discussion has to happen yet though before any final proposals are brought forward for consideration. Thank you, Mr President.

150 The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Chief Minister, for that detailed Answer. Do you think that younger people fully recognise the importance of getting vaccinated, so they 155 will be able to access this documentation if it becomes a requirement with minimum notice to attend festivals, sporting events and even an English pub? Thank you.

The President: Chief Minister. 160 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The Department of Health and Social Care, along with the communications team have worked hard to explain and re-emphasise the huge importance of the vaccination programme. However, whether or not an individual chooses to get vaccinated is a personal choice and must remain a 165 personal choice. As I say, considerably more thought and discussion has to happen before any proposals around vaccination passports are finalised. If the topic does progress further, it is hoped that the requirements for Isle of Man residents will be considered and included in line with other jurisdictions. 170 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mr Moorhouse, final supplementary.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Chief Minister. 175 Last week, the UK’s leading sports bodies sent a joint letter to leaders of the UK’s main political parties to encourage vaccination passports and COVID testing as a credible means of allowing full capacity at venues. The list included the Football Association, the Premier League and many other organisations. Can local people who are eager to go to these events be reassured that if the requirements occur and they have received their vaccinations, they will be able to go? 180 Thank you.

The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 185 If Isle of Man residents wish to attend large-capacity events at off-Island venues and vaccine certification becomes a requirement in order to do so then the Isle of Man, of course, will work to ensure that where an individual might wish to share the details of their vaccination status with a person or organisation, they will be able to do so in a way that is secure and acceptable. Thank you, Mr President.

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3. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee: Grandparents’ Rights – CoMin report on family mediation

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chief Minister:

Further to the resolution of 19th January 2021, why the report on accessibility of mediation services in family matters has not been submitted to April Tynwald?

190 The President: Question 3, Hon .Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister, further to the resolution of 19th January 2021, why the report on accessibility of mediation services in family matters has not been submitted to April 195 Tynwald?

The President: Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. 200 Regrettably, this work has been delayed due to officers focusing on the coronavirus pandemic during the two most recent responses to the spread of the virus on the Island. I understand that the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs will bring a report to this Hon. Court for its June sitting.

TREASURY

4. Government’s banking business – Date for tendering

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

When the Government’s banking business next comes up for tender?

The President: Question 4, Hon. Member, Mr Speaker. 205 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Treasury Minister when the Government’s banking business next comes up for tender?

210 The President: I call on the Minister for Treasury, Mr Cannan, to reply.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the relationship between the Government and its main banker has been a long and historic one, involving a wide spectrum of services. I can confirm that the Treasury intends to review its banking requirements and seek to 215 tender them, as appropriate, by March 2023.

The President: Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: I am just wondering if the Treasury Minister can give us some idea of the scope 220 of the banking services that are currently provided by its main banker and whether those are keenly bid for; maybe even the value of the contract, if he is able to share that with us. ______1758 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 225 The relationship with the Isle of Man Bank has been a long and historic one, covering a wide variety of daily services and cash transactions. The services provided stretch beyond the usual day-to-day banking arrangements and to include, for example, the issuing of Isle of Man notes and coins for a wide variety of services. But I do want to take the opportunity to point out, Mr President, that the Government does 230 have relationships with a number of banks other than the Isle of Man Bank. All deposits, for example, are reviewed regularly to ensure compliance with cash guidelines and deposits are held with Barclays Bank, Santander, Lloyds Bank and HSBC, for example. Hon. Members will be aware that we have worked with a variety of banks to ensure that there is a range of lending support available to the private sector, in particular during the COVID crisis. 235 A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.

240 The Speaker: Is the Minister in a position to advise how much the contract with the Isle of Man Bank is worth?

The President: Minister.

245 The Minister: I think, Mr President, considering that that question was likely to occur but also that we are now considering tendering this process by March 2023, I cannot see that … providing such value would actually give other competitors a potential advantage, so at this precise point, I am not willing to divulge that information.

5. Coroners’ fees – Re-examining system

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

What plans he has to re-examine the system of Coroners’ fees?

The President: Question 5, Mr Speaker. 250 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister what plans he has to re-examine the system of Coroners’ fees, please?

255 The President: Minister for Treasury, Mr Cannan.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr President. Currently work is being undertaken on phase 1 of a three-phase project addressing issues in relation to debt recovery. I expect the system of Coroners’ fees will fall within the overall review 260 of the role and function of Coroners in relation to debt recovery, which forms phase 2 of the project. Given the stage we are at in the parliamentary cycle, this will be a matter whose priority will be determined by the new administration following the General Election in September 2021.

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The President: Mr Speaker. 265 The Speaker: Thank you. Given this is not a matter of great urgency and admittedly when this administration started it was hoped that all three phases would have been completed by this point, I think, and that this has now dropped down the urgency scale; and given that Coroners’ fees have not been updated 270 since 2009, and this is in fact some people’s livelihood, would he consider an opportunity before the end of this administration to at least uprate the Coroners’ fees?

The President: Minister for Treasury.

275 The Minister: Mr President, I am willing to look at that and will do so, but I think it is important to recognise there was a planned project of work here to address this whole issue of Coroners and debt recovery. We are achieving phase 1. I very much hope that the next administration will continue to get phases 2 and 3 sorted out, and within that, of course, the issue of Coroners’ fees will form a fundamental part. But I am happy to go and look at it, Mr President.

ENTERPRISE

6. Construction Isle of Man – Progress and funding support

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:

If he will make a statement on the progress of Construction Isle of Man and funding support?

280 The President: Question 6, Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Enterprise if he will make a statement on the progress of Construction Isle of Man and the funding support? 285 The President: I call on the Minister for Enterprise, Mr Skelly, to reply.

The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Construction Isle of Man is a public-private partnership formed out of the Construction 290 Federation, Construction Forum and the Chamber of Commerce to help provide a credible and representative single voice and to provide leadership and strategic direction for the sector. The board members are all volunteers and use their time and expertise to promote and improve the industry. In addition there is a small remunerated office team consisting of a newly appointed manager, part-time administrator and a marketing officer. 295 The body is focused on growing and supporting the Island’s construction industry, primarily in terms of improving safety and quality standards, developing education and careers awareness, influencing environmental policy and driving technology usage in the sector. The Department has agreed to co-fund Construction Isle of Man for three years. Over those three years the industry will provide over 70% of the funding, while working towards a fully self- 300 funded model by the end of this period. Government will provide £165,000 in total over the three years, of which £38,500 has been released to Construction Isle of Man to date. It should also be noted that Construction Isle of Man is a not-for-profit organisation.

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Two key achievements for Construction Isle of Man since the beginning of the year have been taking over responsibility for the Manx Accredited Construction Contractors Scheme and the 305 Register of Craftsmen and Craftswomen on 1st April. These were formerly the responsibility of the Construction Federation and the Department for Enterprise, and it seeks in the next 12 months to design and implement a programme of change to drive improvements in quality and safety standards over the next three years. Over the last 12 months, Construction Isle of Man has played a significant role in keeping the 310 industry up to date on Government policy in respect to construction work and coronavirus protocols for site-working. They have worked exceptionally closely with our Department and that link has helped give clarity and support to the sector during this difficult time. In addition, the body is planning a home and lifestyle expo in July this year. The expo will not only focus on construction businesses but also new technologies and sustainability which is a key 315 long-term deliverable for the sector and Construction Isle of Man.

The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for that update. 320 In a previous answer on 13th October, I did ask the Minister if he would circulate the terms of the public-private partnership, and I certainly have not seen sight of that, so I wonder if I could ask that question again and whether that is available? My second question is with regard to the funding, and it is £165,000 over the three years: how is the Department keeping track of that funding? Is there a report done on an annual basis or a 325 monthly basis and who actually oversees that? Also, with regard to the expo, is that being funded by the Department as well? Thank you Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply. 330 The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. With regard to the terms and constitution, I will revisit that and see if we can actually have that circulated to all Members, so they are aware of the set up there. It is worth bearing in mind what we have done here is we have brought together three organisations: the Construction Federation, 335 the Construction Forum and the Chamber of Commerce Construction Committee to provide one single voice, so I will commit to do that directly. In terms of funding, there is to be an annual report, and I will find details of that and include that in the update for Members. The upcoming expo, the Department will clearly be supporting that. They have a fund obviously 340 of their own, and if we believe that there is merit there to promote that beyond their current budget and their constraints, we will certainly do so. We think it is very timely, especially with regard to the Climate Change Bill that has gone through, potential changes in regulations and so forth and new technologies that are coming forward, so we would want to support that.

345 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I perhaps have a slightly different view to the Minister, but I see it as three lobbying groups who try to influence his Department. I wonder if he would provide the breakdown of the budget 350 at the set-up of the organisation, when the three – the Chamber of Commerce, Construction Isle of Man and the Construction Forum – came together. What funding was put into the new set up? If he would circulate that with the terms of the public-private partnership because I think that is important to the members of the separate three organisations. Thank you, Mr President. ______1761 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

355 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Yes, of course, they were three organisations previously, and as a Department we would meet with them. They would have different industries, sub-industries shall we say, within the wider 360 sector and now, bringing them all together with a single voice that makes it, I think, a lot more beneficial, certainly from a Government point of view and also a wider sector point of view. But do bear in mind, Hon. Members, what they are trying to do here. One of their main functions here is improving safety and quality standards and developing education and careers awareness. There is a severe skill shortage in this particular sector, and clearly there needs to be 365 new skills coming forward, as highlighted with regard to climate change activity. So we do want to have that single voice and we believe that is beneficial. I did state previously that there would be an annual report with regard to the funding, and I will ensure that I have that included in the update for Hon. Members, when I provide the terms and constitution. 370 Gura mie eu.

The President: Final supplementary, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 375 I am just brought to my feet again with regard to some of the comments there with regard to skills shortage and safety in construction, etc. I wonder if the Minister would be good enough to circulate the accidents that have been in construction, say over the last two years, so that we have got them prior to the new organisation, so it could be looked at in the future. I am sure there are many people in our construction industry who will not agree with him with 380 regard to their safety records and their skill sets. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply.

385 The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I do know that this organisation has been conducting their own surveys within the industry, and I will ask them if they will provide some details with regard to infringements or accidents that may have actually occurred. Clearly, health and safety is vital, it is important to this industry, and this body is the right body to help improve that going forward. 390 Gura mie eu.

EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE

7. NSC flumes – Resumed functioning

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

When the flumes will be functioning again at the NSC?

The President: Question 7, Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. ______1762 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

I would like to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture when the flumes will be 395 functioning again at the NSC?

A Member: Hooray!

The President: I call on the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture, Dr Allinson, to reply. 400 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to thank the Hon. Member for his continuing interest in this vital facility, not just for the residents of Douglas but for the whole Island. 405 Further to the approval at the November 2020 sitting of Tynwald for the Department of Education, Sport and Culture to progress the flume remedial agreement, this was executed and the new components and materials required for the works were dispatched from the manufacturer Polin in Turkey and received on Island prior to Christmas. Positive dialogue has continued with the contractors to ensure that the work will progress as 410 soon as possible. However, due to the continued impact of the COVID pandemic, this has meant that the modification works have not yet been able to start. Scaffolding access to the flume stair tower and platform is being erected this week. I am pleased to confirm that we have now secured the services of the specialist contractor undertaking the remedial works to attend from 25th April, subject to travel exemptions being 415 approved, with their work on the project expected to take five weeks. Thereafter, it is anticipated that the necessary works to complete the overall NSC pool project and prepare for a full reopening will take a further seven weeks. We are aiming to have the whole NSC pool facility back in operation in time for the school summer holidays. This is dependent on the project completion timetable remaining on schedule. 420 I will update this Hon. Court further in due course on how the works are progressing and the scheduled reopening date. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Moorhouse. 425 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister, for that encouraging Answer. Given the start date is 25th April, will the pool and associated areas be open during the summer half-term break? 430 Thank you

The President: Dr Allinson.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 435 I would like to thank the Hon. Member for his supplementary question. What we will be trying to do is, in between the various components of the remedial work, reopen the pool itself for full use. Obviously, that is partly dependent on the schedule of the works and the health and safety processes that have taken place, given that we have got off-Island contractors involved. But I will aim to make sure that the pool itself, the main pool at the NSC, is open for the half term. 440 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President.

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445 There was a news item last week in the newspapers on 14th April, where the Minister stated that work on the children’s pool and flumes required specialist scaffolding contractors from the UK – and this actually is good to follow on from the previous question with regard to construction. The Minister seems to have realised we do have specialist scaffolding contractors on Island now and it is getting erected next week. Can the Minister say why there was an error in a news item 450 last week?

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. 455 I would like to thank the Hon. Member for her perception. She is quite right: the news item was incorrect. It misquoted a press statement by the Department and I can confirm that ST Site Services1 will be carrying out the scaffolding and we are employing a local firm to do that. Thank you, Mr President.

1 See correction note by the Minister dated 23rd April 2021: https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210420-HA-Q7.pdf

8. Summer Term – Priorities for students

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

What his Department’s priority is for the Summer Term for students in education?

The President: Question eight, Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 460 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture what his Department’s priority is for the summer term for students in education. Thank you, Mr President. 465 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Dr Allinson.

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for Onchan for her Question. 470 The Department’s initial priority will be to ensure that both staff and students settle back into school quickly. The focus will be on assessing students’ needs from learning and emotional health perspectives so that appropriate support can be accessed. This may include additional pastoral support in the school, educational welfare officers and educational psychologists, who will be keeping close contact with the schools over the coming weeks and, if necessary, will offer bespoke 475 advice and support. For Years 11 and 13 the focus will also be on ensuring pupils are prepared and ready for their additional assessments, and that procedures are clear, consistent and in line with awarding body requirements. Individual schools will communicate their specific arrangements for these with their pupils and parents. This will involve schools producing rationales and processes for school 480 assessed grades this summer, as well as supporting pupils with options for further education, training or employment. Staff will continue to provide advice and support for ensuring transition processes into schools that are smooth and effective. Schools are already in the process of arranging visits with pre-

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school providers for the September intake. Reception staff will be liaising with nurseries, 485 playgroups, childminders, the pre-school assessment centre and their families in order for children to transition smoothly into their new schools. Staff in primary schools will be liaising with their partner secondary schools to ensure that Year 6 pupils are prepared to start their secondary schools in September. Thank you. 490 The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for that. It is quite key, an awful lot in that answer, it is the responsibility of the schools themselves, but 495 I did actually ask him what his Department’s priorities were for the summer term and I do wonder, is there any strategic all-Island continuity planning taking place from the Department for all schools? One of the issues that I have experienced with parents contacting me is anxiety which could lead to mental health … for students. So would the Minister confirm what strategic planning the 500 Department is doing and how they are going to communicate with students and parents to try to give some sight of what is going to happen in this term and for the future term, for the new school year in September? Thank you, Mr President.

505 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Hon. Member for her supplementary question. Actually I started in the Answer with: ‘The Department’s initial priority will be to ensure that 510 both staff and students settle back into school,’ and I also mentioned the additional educational psychologist support and also the educational welfare officers. So that is what the Department is doing to support schools. She asks very good questions about parental anxiety in terms of coming back to school, and we recognise that. The Department’s website has got a range of resources available on it to give 515 information for parents and pupils in terms of mental health and wellbeing. We have been liaising quite closely with the ‘Are you OK?’ programme set up by Government right across Government to try to deal with some of these issues. But she raises the very good point of children and young people and the anxieties that they have, and I think we have always been aware of this but this has been accentuated by what we 520 have all lived through for the last 12 months. One of the first things I did when I came into the post was to look at a strategic way that we could deal with mental health problems and wellbeing problems on our Island when it comes to young people and I think schools have an integral part to play with that. It is a great regret that many years ago the ability to foster nurture in schools was abandoned. I think that was a mistake 525 and that is a mistake more apparent now than ever before. It is essential that we as a society, but also educationalists and the Department, intervene early when children are having difficulties, either educationally or emotionally, and they need to actually have a listening and nurturing environment to enter into conversations, so that we can allow young people to share their experiences and concerns. It is extremely important. 530 So one of the things that the Department will be doing is really looking at how we can recreate that nurturing environment, what resources we need to do that and take that forward over the summer, so that we can report to parents and pupils later on in the year with a much better plan for how we can actually not only improve what we do in schools but aid the emotional recovery that we will need as we come out of this pandemic. 535 Thank you, Mr President. ______1765 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. The Minister, in his answer there, said schools are producing processes for in-school 540 assessments. Can he confirm then the implication here is that individual schools are all developing their own assessment processes, instead of there being one process that covers the whole Island and if that is the case, how is he going to ensure that those processes are all equitable for every student throughout the whole Island? Secondly, can he provide some information on what additional resources have been made 545 available to schools to support them developing and implementing these assessments and to support pupils as they go through them?

The President: Minister to reply.

550 The Minister: Thank you very much and I thank my colleague from Ramsey for his very poignant question. What we are dealing with at the moment, obviously with the cancellation of summer exams, is that each individual exam board has created their own criteria for how those grades will be assessed and also benchmarked. What we as a Department are doing is advising those individual 555 schools who are using the various exam bodies of the best way to provide this. These are not going to be on an individual school basis, it is an individual board basis and related to the subjects being examined. So what we will be doing as the Department is supporting those schools to do that. We will be providing any extra resources that are asked for to do that and we have staff actually monitoring 560 the various changes in the requirements of those examination boards to take that forward. Also as a Department, obviously if we encounter problems, as we did last year, we will be supporting schools and students and their families to make sure that those students get the grades they deserve and have worked hard for. Thank you, Mr President. 565 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Minister agree with me that, given the lockdown challenges, the lack of the Easter 570 celebrations and the TT, this year’s half term is going to be really important in allowing teachers, ancillary staff and students to get out and really relax? Thank you.

The President: Minister to reply. 575 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. I often agree with the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew. I think he is quite right. When we look at the pressures students have been under and families and the whole community we do need to give people some time to reflect and contemplate. 580 There are some people who have asked me why don’t we just cancel summer holidays and cancel the Easter holidays and carry on schools all the way through. I think both our staff and our pupils and our families need a bit of time to relax. There has been a lot spoken about lost learning during this period and there was a very good article in The Times Educational Supplement by James Williams, who is actually a senior lecturer in education at the School of Education and Social 585 Work, University of Sussex, and he has stressed really that during this period children have been learning from home, with or without a device. By learning I mean remote lessons in English, maths and science. Children have had more free time to explore arts and crafts, music and any number ______1766 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

of skills, from baking to improving their IT abilities. We need to talk more about these things that they have gained and not just focus on what has been lost. 590 I think now we have a chance to actually look at that again, to look at childhood and how we deal with that, to nurture rather than just straightforward exam results, and make sure we have a rounded and holistic education service that serves our community. Thank you, Mr President.

595 A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: I have a number of Members wishing to speak. It is not a general education debate so short questions and short answers, please. Mrs Lord-Brennan. 600 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I am getting back, I suppose, to the original priorities for the Department. Where is the priority of getting back to learning in all of this? I would be interested in that because we are hearing a great deal about emotional wellbeing and mental health, and whilst that is important I think many 605 parents would be seeking to see the priority towards getting their kids taught again and stepping up their appetite for learning and really applying themselves. I think many parents would be looking for that. Secondly, what is the Minister’s view in terms of what has he got to say to my point which is that we are entering a danger area where we are almost starting to repeatedly tell a whole 610 generation of children that they have issues and that they are struggling, that they have anxiety? Does he not recognise that that might lead to almost a crisis of confidence as we seek to classify a whole generation of students as struggling? Shouldn’t the Education Department be taking the lead on the education and learning side of things and the other aspects are probably part of a broader issue? 615 Thank you, Mr President.

Ms Edge: Hear, hear.

The President: Minister to reply. 620 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to thank the Hon. Member of Council for raising that. What I was concentrating on was priorities, but you are quite right, the chief priority has to be continuing the learning. What we know, however, is that if children are anxious they do not learn as well so we need 625 to deal with that learning in a holistic way and recognise that they may have problems that need to be resolved in a school environment as well. That is recognising, not classifying, and I completely agree with the Member that if we constantly tell children that they should be stressed, they have missed out on education, they should be anxious, that can reinforce those feelings so what we need to do is make sure that we 630 teach that resilience, which is why I was talking about nurture – make sure we have children who can weather storms when they hit but make sure also that their learning is not interrupted by that either because their education has been interrupted or because their mental health and wellbeing have been affected so they cannot learn as much. Thank you, Mr President. 635 The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member of Council, because obviously she picked up on some of the areas I was going to go to, because I do feel that, whilst I respect ______1767 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

640 the Minister’s previous background, we have been focusing very much on a health rather than an education setting from the Minister. I also would like to just comment with regard to nurture. Nurture comes in many ways and he is obviously not quite up to speed with schools’ pastoral support and the wellbeing programmes that are in schools which clearly are there to support students. 645 But what I would like to hear some commitment from the Minister on is with regard to what the education looks like for the future for our young. They need some solid information from the Department about what they are going to do to help support them; and the whole point of me asking about a strategic all-Island continuity plan is I would like to see something in that with regard to future online learning. We have had numbers of students with COVID. They might have 650 long Covid. That is the strategy I would have expected coming out of a pandemic from the Department when I ask a question about what their priorities are for the next six months. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply. 655 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for Onchan for her supplementary question. The question was about the Department and what we would be doing in terms of our priorities, but obviously the priority of schools and the priority of teachers is education. Absolutely! 660 In terms of the welfare programmes in schools, I am aware that they exist. I am aware that schools have been doing a tremendous job, and some schools have continued with nurture, and we need to concentrate on that and improve that. She talks about a commitment about what education looks like in the future and online learning. Online learning is just one tool of learning. I think we need to make sure we do not get 665 distracted about that. When the Department published a review of remote learning last year we very much stressed that this gave opportunities for the future in terms of blended learning. Why do we have sixth formers having to come into school for maybe one or two lectures a day when they could be doing that from home online? Why do we have different classes in different parts of the Island when we could amalgamate that and increase the range of choices for students by 670 using online learning? So all of these will be looked into by the Department, but in conversation with teachers because the Department is very keen on making sure we enable teachers to provide the learning that they want to provide for their students because they are the ones that know those students best. 675 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. 680 In his previous answer the Minister referenced that individual exam boards will obviously be treating things differently, and I would expect one of the priorities of his Department would be to ensure that all students sitting exams have the best possible opportunity in front of them. Can he just clarify then in respect of those earlier remarks that if, for example, you have two students both studying the WJEC Maths GCSE, one in Ramsey, one in Peel, both of those students will be 685 assessed in the same way to the same criteria to make sure that it is actually fair across the whole Island?

The President: Minister to reply.

690 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for that point.

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Yes, I can commit to that. What the Department is doing is working with teachers in different schools teaching the same subjects and the same exam board to make sure that all students are assessed in the same way, so that if we are then challenged by that board on those exam grades we can give clear evidence that across the board the same procedures have been applied for all 695 our students to get the grades they deserve. Thank you.

The President: I am going to take two more supplementary questions. My previous comments still apply. 700 Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I am grateful for the Minister’s answers this morning covering both education and health, but he did say that additional educational psychologists would be provided to the schools. I wonder if 705 he could tell us what is the current number of educational psychologists? Is it meeting the current demand and what does he foresee it might need to be expanded to? Thank you

The President: Minister to reply. 710 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for Garff for her question. What I was talking about was educational psychology support. We do have at the moment four educational psychologists. Unfortunately, I understand one has recently left so we are actually 715 advertising for a further replacement and trying to expand that provision, both in terms of practical support for pupils in schools but also, as the Hon. Member for Onchan talked about, more of a strategic view of how those educational psychologists can actually support a more extensive service for our pupils. Thank you. 720 The President: Final question, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister where the focus on this nurture policy has come from and what 725 would he say to parents who actually feel like rather than having the Government, the Department, seeking to nurture their children, they would like to nurture their children at home and then not have the worry of thinking about what is not happening in the educational setting? What would he say to those parents who would query the focus on nurture from the Government? Secondly, is he aware that many children probably do not need a break, if we are completely 730 honest? They have been sat in their pyjamas watching YouTube, playing among us! They need to learn to get back to it. So what would he say to that? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister, what do you say to that? 735 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for her comments. I completely agree with her that pupils are different, families are different, their demands are different and so what we need to do is be able to give a very much reflective and variable and 740 flexible education service for those individual needs; and we will deal with that by supporting teachers who know their pupils better. But also, obviously, as the Hon. Member for Ramsey has spoken about, providing that clear information for families so that they can continue to support ______1769 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

their children, because we have to remember that the education service promotes learning, but the vast majority of that learning takes place at home and obviously we want to support those 745 pupils and their parents to continue doing so. Thank you.

The President: I will give Ms Edge a final say.

750 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would just like to ask the Minister, in response to that last question, when will he commit to publish a clear strategy for parents going forward; and has he considered doing any additional programmes and summer schools, which have previously been held? Has his Department looked at that as a strategy to come out of COVID and what funding is available? 755 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. 760 I do not think any Minister for Education should have a strategy for parents. (Ms Edge: Communicating, Minister!) I would not dream of telling them exactly what they should do and not do. I am very much interested in supporting teachers to support parents and support their pupils, rather than have strategies about what parents should be doing.

765 Ms Edge: Parents need to know what the direction is.

The Minister: Excuse me, Hon. Member. What I will absolutely commit to as we go into this summer term is to support schools to look at their pupils, to support schools to find exactly what extra resources they need, and then provide 770 those so we can allow those pupils who have missed out on some education over the lockdown and the previous lockdowns to catch up with their education, to make sure that they are not disadvantaged and go on to the next stage in their careers, in terms of employment, further education or elsewhere. Thank you.

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

9. Drugs or alcohol – Support for those under influence

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Christian) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

What support there is for those who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol when the Crisis team cannot support them because they are still under the influence? 775 The President: Question 9, Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what support there is for those who 780 are under the influence of drugs or alcohol when the Crisis team cannot support them because they are still under the influence? Thank you, Mr President. ______1770 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The President: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mr Ashford.

785 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Mr President, there are several options for supporting an individual who may be under the influence of drugs or alcohol and therefore unable to be immediately and fully assessed by the Crisis Response and Home Treatment team. This would be influenced primarily by the presenting need and associated risk. A significant proportion of individuals will attend the Emergency Department. There they will 790 be initially screened by the Crisis Response team and, if not able to engage in the assessment, they will remain in the Department until such time as they are considered clinically fit enough to engage fully in the assessment process. There are well-established protocols supporting this practice, as it may be necessary to provide medical treatment for any effects of withdrawal. For those individuals subject to section 132 of the Mental Health Act 1998, the powers exist to 795 ensure that the individual remains in the place of safety, until such time as they are able to engage in the assessment. For individuals presenting on a voluntary basis who decide they are unwilling to remain in the place of safety, it may be necessary to liaise with the Constabulary to consider whether the application of section 132 is necessary or appropriate. In some circumstances, individuals will have access to a robust support network, consequently, they may be supported to 800 return home with telephone support for both them and their family or network. On such occasions, arrangements will be made for them to be assessed by the Crisis Response team at the earliest opportunity. As indicated, the primary factor influencing each of the described scenarios is the presenting risk of harm. It is important to note that people do not have to be completely free of substances 805 or alcohol before they can be assessed. Individuals react uniquely to the effect of substances, and so the crisis response team would always make an attempt initially to assess, to ascertain if the individual is able to engage fully in the assessment process. Thank you, Mr President.

810 The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister agree that co-occurring substance use and mental health conditions require an integral pathway which should be adequately resourced to be able to respond to the 815 full range of mental health and alcohol and drug needs to maximise opportunities for engagement and eventual recovery? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply. 820 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I would fully agree with the Hon. Member for Douglas South, she raises a very important point, and that is why we do have to establish pathways that have been tried and tested in other jurisdictions. In place, we have the intoxicated persons care pathway, which is widely used in the 825 UK, and also we have got the recently amended children and young persons care pathway, both of which are in use.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Christian.

830 Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister what plans are in place to create a multi-agency crisis team with the necessary capacity to include better care for people with co-occurring mental health and alcohol and drug use conditions, including intoxicated individuals, with episodes of intoxication

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being managed safely and an agreed plan to help people access ongoing care and manage future 835 crisis episodes? Thank you, Mr President

The President: Minister to reply.

840 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President, again a very good question by the Hon. Member for Douglas South in relation to this. The Mental Health Service is currently looking at remodelling existing premises at the Noble’s site to provide additional choice to patients presenting in this way in crisis. So the idea around creating something, that is starting to emerge, learning in other jurisdictions of a psychiatric 845 decision unit, which is an innovative model offering access thorough assessment and intensive nurse-led treatment, which can be up for a period of 72 hours. So we are looking at the work that has been going on in other jurisdictions and we are looking at the Noble’s site to see if we could actually create this rather than people potentially spending their time in the Emergency Department. 850 The President: Mrs Christian, supplementary.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Minister agree that the Crisis team actually need experience in both mental health 855 and alcohol and drug use for conditions so that they can give better care across the board and vice versa, so that the drug and alcohol use carers actually have mental health experience as well, so that they can cross over? Thank you, Mr President.

860 A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 865 My understanding is that the Mental Health team and the Crisis Response team do work closely with the Drug and Alcohol team in relation to this. Referrals are brought into the service via different routes, and we have a wide range of expertise that can be called upon. I believe some of the GP services we have also have quite good experience in relation to dealing with these particular issues, and the crisis response team has that pool of resource that it can call 870 upon if required.

The President: Final supplementary, Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 875 Would the Shirveishagh agree with me, as part of a mental health nurse’s professional training, a general part is in fact in drug and alcohol care, rehabilitation and other matters, and, in fact, there is a very large module in psychiatric nurse’s training in such, so in fact, they are the right people in the right place at the right time?

880 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President, and can I thank the Hon. Member of Council. With his background he knows an awful lot more on this topic than I could ever wish to know, and so I defer to his knowledge, Mr President.

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10. Manannan Court – Increasing bed capacity

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Christian) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

What plans his Department has to increase the bed capacity at Manannan Court?

885 The President: Question 10, again I call on Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what plans his Department has to increase the bed capacity at Manannan Court? 890 The President: Minister to reply, Mr Ashford.

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. Manx Care does not have any existing plans to increase the capacity of Manannan Court. 895 As detailed within the recently published Manx Care: Required Outcome Framework:

Manx Care will report against and monitor inpatient Length of Stay [within a mental health setting] and will develop credible plans to optimise the patient’s Length of Stay in hospital. Manx Care will establish processes to monitor and report against Delayed Transfer of Care from inpatient mental health settings and ensure effective integrated discharge planning processes are in place.

Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Christian.

900 Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. In the Isle of Man Government 2015 to 2020 Strategic Plan for Mental Health and Wellbeing, this administration committed to adopting a collaborative approach to increasing primary and community provision to support early intervention and community treatment, with the aim to reduce the use of secondary care services. Could the Minister advise some tangible evidence that 905 delivery of the Strategic Plan has resulted in reduced use at Manannan Court? Thank you, Mr President.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, in terms of the Strategic Plan, one of the things has been home-based treatments that we 910 have been looking at, particularly over the last couple of years, because one of the things that is very important, Mr President, is while Manannan Court might seem sometimes to be the focus – and it is a very important provision for many people – our first reaction should not be to effectively try and detain people in Manannan Court. We should be looking to community-based treatment and to home treatments to be able to deal with people first, and sometimes people being in their 915 own home and family environment is actually much better for them than being in any other situation. In terms of bed occupancy, which I can use as an example with Manannan Court, between April 2020 and March 2021, the bed occupancy in that year averaged about 87%, that is down from previous years where, on occasions, some areas have been up at 95%, and also the most recent 920 quarter has seen a reduction again down to 81%.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. ______1773 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

925 Could I just ask the Minister where the decision lies around the capacity at Manannan Court, just in terms of between the Department of Health and Social Care and Manx Care? What I am interested in knowing more is about the interaction between the Strategic Plan, which has already been highlighted by the Hon. Member for Douglas South, and the alternative interventions that the Minister himself raised. So in terms of the best outcomes, is this a policy issue? Is this a 930 deliverable issue? I am just wondering if the Minister could perhaps talk a little bit about the dividing line as to where the Department ends and Manx Care starts on this one.

The President: Reply, sir.

935 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I could probably talk at length about it but I promise you I will not, I will take into account your words. In terms of policy, the service delivery is Manx Care, and we have got to remember at the end of the day, with the Mental Health Service we are dealing with people, so it is a service delivery 940 option. The Mental Health Service has been working very hard. While the Department might set the overall strategy, the Mental Health Service has fed into that by saying what they believe would work in a clinical sense for helping people. They will still be responsible for that, and although we still have that division now, even more pronounced between the Department and Manx Care, all 945 of the strategies going forward will have to be drawn up jointly because the Department cannot just make policy. I think I have used the phrase in here before, Mr President, about ‘thou shalt’. We have got to actually work with Manx Care, who are the professionals and have to deliver it, because they are the people who will actually know what will work on the ground and what will not work. There is no point coming up with an entire strategy that actually is not going to work in 950 practice – that does not help anyone, particularly the people on the ground. So the policy, although it will come from the Department, the practicalities of that will be driven by Manx Care.

The President: Mrs Christian.

955 Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. It is great the Minister feels that there has been significant progress with the Strategic Plan and that there has been a consistency, a small drop, to the admissions demand at Manannan Court but, Mr President, I am confused. Could the actual consistency be covering up that there is actually a beds shortage at Manannan Court? The reason I say this is because actually, in the Minister’s 960 Written Answer on 30th March, he confirmed that referrals to the Crisis team had gone up by 60%, which is 577 additional referrals from 2019 to 2020. And so how is it that the Crisis team referrals have gone up and the demand is the same? Can the Minister explain is this really due to the significant progress in our Mental Health Strategic Plan, because that does not actually coincide with the fact that the referrals to the Crisis 965 team have gone up by 60% in one year? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: The Minister to reply.

970 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. In relation to referrals, we are now seeing a drop-off, in fact. If I do the two comparators, total number of new referrals to Mental Health Services, the February performance for this year was in terms of new referrals, there were 495, the previous year saw 701, so that is actually a drop for that particular month.

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975 We have to remember as well that, in terms of new referrals, we are talking over the COVID period last year, where there was a substantial uptick in that first lockdown, and I do not think that will surprise anyone in this Hon. Court. But the other thing that has to feed in, it is not just looking at referrals, but the question was on Manannan Court, Mr President, we also have to look at the length of stay, which I referred to 980 in the original Answer. And the actual length of stay over 21 days, which is what the measure is, has actually reduced quite substantially. For instance, in January this year, before the work all commenced around this, about 43% of those in Manannan Court were over 21 days, in February that reduced down to 26% and in March 2021 that is now down to 20%, Mr President.

985 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I just wonder – and I hope I get the pronunciation of this correct, Minister – is it Geddyn Reesht? Which I believe is the ward next door to Manannan Court. I am just wondering, what 990 progress has been made there for the step-down facilities for people coming out of Manannan Court? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister. 995 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I hope the Hon. Court will accept my apology in advance, because I always pronounce it wrong as well so between the two of us, hopefully, one of us will get it right! Geddyn Reesht, I think it is pronounced. 1000 In relation to the step-down facilities, that work is ongoing within the Mental Health Service. It will also tie in with the work I referred to earlier around a psychiatric decision unit. That all interlinks as part of the pathway that we need to go forward with, with Mental Health Services, because it is one of those services where it does need to be more community-focused and keeping people in a safe but familiar environment, rather than the automatic point of call being, ‘Put them 1005 in Manannan Court.’

11. Patient transfer contract – Tendering

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

When he expects the tender for the patient transfer contract to be advertised?

The President: Question 11, Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care when he expects the tender for the 1010 patient transfer contract to be advertised?

The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Ashford.

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. 1015 The Department has prepared a revised patient transfer specification following the tender process last financial year. It was initially hoped that it would be out before the end of March and, ______1775 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

unfortunately, that deadline has not been met. This specification will now sit within a wider specification prepared with the help of the Department of Infrastructure. Although both Departments will work closely together, the Minister for Infrastructure has 1020 agreed very kindly that his officers will lead the procurement process for the patient transfer contract. This specification, I have been informed, is in the final stages of being agreed in the Department of Infrastructure, and I understand it will be issued to potential providers via the procurement portal before the end of this month.

1025 The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. Is the Minister able to advise the cause of the delay – why they did not manage to advertise this, as he originally intended, by the end of March? 1030 Secondly, the original extension was six months from 1st December, which I make to be coming up very shortly; does the Minister have confidence that they will be able to complete the re- tendering process and actually award a new contract before the current extension expires?

The President: Minister to reply. 1035 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I stand to be corrected, but I think from my memory, the temporary arrangements are actually till the end of May, so I believe there may need to be a two-month extension sought which would be to the end of July in order to get the tender process completed. 1040 In terms of the delays, initially, the Department was going to move forward with this on its own as part of health and social care, but there is a large amount of expertise within DoI in relation to this and I am one of those who very often in this Hon. Court, and particularly when I was a backbencher, spoke about joined-up Government and Departments working together. This is an ideal one for us to work together on because DoI provides for DHSC other forms of patient 1045 transport and I think we should be utilising all expertise and, unfortunately, that has led to a four- week delay.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Quine.

1050 Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. Is the Minister of the opinion that the previous tender document offered for the patient transfer service was somewhat flawed and consequently has resulted in uncertainty and apprehension for the locally based employees of the carrier that was offered the contract, only for that offer to be withdrawn through no fault of their own? 1055 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1060 Yes, it was clearly flawed – or the marking was flawed, I would say, in relation to it; it was not actually the tender itself as such, it was the marking that was flawed, and that did lead to, unfortunately, the tender being pulled, which is why I am stood here answering this Question today. It certainly was no fault of the operator.

1065 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President.

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Can the Minister advise what the flaws were in the marking of the original tender document and can he assure this Hon. Court that those flaws will not be repeated this time round? 1070 Secondly, given the Minister intends to make sure there is joined-up Government in all of this, is the Minister confident that the Department of Infrastructure is engaging with all of the operators of flights in and out of the Isle of Man who have long histories of this – for instance, the Royal Mail Post Office planes and so on, which already provide excellent service?

1075 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: I think we are opening it out a bit, Mr President, with mention of the Royal Mail plane but, yes, I am absolutely confident DoI will be engaging with all operators who could potentially run the service. It is an open tender and people can come forward for it. 1080 In relation to the flaws, there were a number of appeals last year, Mr President; Internal Audit were also asked for their feedback in relation to the specification and also in relation to the marking. What came back from Internal Audit is they were concerned around the awarding of points. In theory, we could have potentially still gone ahead, Mr President, but the marking and, I must say, the actual bids were very close on the tender and so the decision was made to pull it at 1085 that stage and re-advertise.

The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. 1090 Will the Minister just confirm that he is committed to an open and transparent process, which will seek the best value for the taxpayer and that this tender will not be manipulated by either his Department or the Department of Infrastructure to achieve a desired predetermined outcome? Thank you.

1095 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. No Government Department should ever seek to manipulate a tender in any way whatsoever! (A Member: Hear, hear.) To do so would be absolutely highly inappropriate, and in fact should 1100 any Department ever be found to do so I would hope any Minister would take very firm action against those involved. So it has got to be an open and transparent process, and I can say to the Hon. Member there is no predetermined outcome. The outcome has got to be what is best for the taxpayers and also, crucially, we have to remember this is a patient transfer service for people who in some cases can be quite seriously ill; what is the best outcome for those patients who have 1105 to travel for their medical conditions?

The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. 1110 In his original Answer, the Minister referenced this re-tender would be undertaken by the Department of Infrastructure, and I am sure he referenced as part of a wider framework as well. Can he advise what other airline contracts the Department of Infrastructure is in the process of tendering for that this patient transfer contract forms a part of?

1115 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. In relation to my original Answer, I know I said it would be issued at the end of April, the specification has been prepared with the help of the Department of Infrastructure, so I believe we ______1777 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

1120 have widened the specification slightly within the existing tender. I am not referring to the fact that it is going to go out further. If it is going to go into something further that would be a matter for the Department of Infrastructure. But certainly from DHSC’s point of view, we have been working with the Department of Infrastructure on the specification of patient transfer and ensuring that the specification for that, because things have moved on since we did the original 1125 tender, is appropriate.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quine.

Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President, and may I thank the Minister for his replies. 1130 Given what he has just said and following on from what my hon. friend the Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, intimated in his question, is the Minister now able to confirm that the new tender document which is to be offered will be fit for purpose and that by due consideration will be given to those submitting for the contract to ensure that the required and, more importantly, demonstrated levels of experience, logistical resilience and operational back-up will be at the 1135 forefront of consideration to award the contract that will ultimately provide the best return for the Manx taxpayer, but more crucially, as the Minister alluded to, the most comfortable service for the patient? Thank you, Mr President.

1140 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am happy to expand on what I have said previously, which is: it must be first of all an open and transparent process, and it must allow people to bid on an equal footing. We will, as part of 1145 that specification, be looking at the ability of providers to operate the service to be able to deliver, because we are talking about medically potentially compromised patients that need to travel. But it has got to be an open and fair process, it has got to be completely and utterly transparent, and we hope that it will be live on the procurement portal for any interested parties to come forward and then it will be assessed independently, Mr President, based on the bids made. 1150 The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. Could the Minister confirm then that basically, what we are asking for is substantially the same 1155 tender for substantially the same service, as far as the Department of Health and Social Care is concerned, that there are not any extra add-ons that he is aware of that are being brought into this? Could he also then perhaps advise when the Internal Audit review came back when the decision was made to get the Department of Infrastructure involved, because what this is looking 1160 like is a four-week delay on top of a six-month delay to allow them to redo the process in the first place? So the six months was allowed to do it in the first place and we seem to have added extra complexity in at a time when airlines could really do with the certainty.

The President: Minister to reply. 1165 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I do not think anyone can disagree with the last remark that the airline industry most certainly needs certainty. It is frustrating that there appears to have been a four-week delay in the process, but I do believe it is right that we have involved the Department of Infrastructure. They provide 1170 other patient transport for us, and they also obviously deal with the airline industry day in, day

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out via Ronaldsway, so they do have expertise within that Department that does not sit within DHSC. To be frank, I think the whole experience of this has shown that this sort of tender process perhaps does sit better with DoI than actually sits better with the DHSC, from the very fact we are 1175 in this position now. But I have gone back and I have checked again and I have been guaranteed yesterday that it will be out on the procurement portal by the end of April.

The President: I call Mr Shimmins, to be followed by Mr Hooper for the final supplementary question. 1180 Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I very much welcome the Minister’s remarks there where he said this will be an open and fair process which will be completely and utterly transparent. That is exceptionally reassuring. 1185 Will the Minister also confirm that the patient transfer service will not be bundled with other subsidies for other routes, which actually creates a very opaque and difficult-to-understand process? I should be grateful for his confirmation of that. Thank you.

1190 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. In relation to the patient transfer service, it will be assessed on the importance and the quality of the patient service delivered, because that is what we are dealing with at the end of the day; 1195 we are dealing with patients who are travelling over for medical reasons. Some of those patients may not even be very mobile, so we have to take those sort of things into consideration. So what I would say is in terms of the patient transfer service it will be assessed on what is best for those patients.

1200 A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: A final supplementary, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. 1205 I wonder if the Minister can just clear something up for me. He said earlier that the specification itself, he did not think there was a problem with it. In fact, on 2nd March, he told the House of Keys that it was his understanding there was nothing wrong with the specification and the pulling of the tender was purely down to the valuation, which is something he has repeated again today. 1210 So I wonder if he could advise then, when he said that his Department has spent the last four weeks working with the Department of Infrastructure on the specification, if there was nothing wrong with the specification why has so much time and energy been invested in revisiting that specification and re-preparing it for the second tender bid? Would he be able to provide Hon. Members with a comparison of the original specification and the new revised specification 1215 when the advertisement goes live?

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1220 When the advertisement goes live, yes, I am more than happy to do that where Members can see from one to the other. We did take the opportunity since it had to be paused anyway, Mr President, to revisit the specification. I still do not believe there was anything wrong with the ______1779 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

original one, but we have looked around the quality aspects of the service and the balance within the specification between quality and cost, and that is what has been revised, Mr President.

Question 12 to be answered in writing

1225 The President: Moving on now, Question 12 will be answered in writing.

JUSTICE AND HOME AFFAIRS

13. Legal representation at Prison – Black regime operation

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:

How inmates have had access to legal representation at the Prison since the Prison has been operating under the Black regime?

The President: Question 13, Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs – he is obviously not here today so 1230 I assume one of the departmental Members will be answering: how inmates have had access to legal representation at the Prison since the Prison has been operating under the Black regime? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: I call on the Member of the Department answering on behalf of the Minister, 1235 Mrs Barber.

A Member of Justice and Home Affairs (Mrs Barber): Thank you, Mr President. I am pleased to be able to inform the Hon. Member for Onchan that access to legal representation has been maintained during the recent lockdown and during the Black regime 1240 within the Prison. Detainees have had their legal representatives’ phone numbers added to their in-cell telephony and wing phone accounts and these calls are free of charge. Where their legal representatives have felt it necessary to speak face to face, prisoners have been afforded video calls and, if necessary, the Prison also have video-conferencing facilities available on each wing. However, to date this has not been taken up by any advocates. 1245 The Department of Home Affairs, including the Prison Governor, take part in a weekly meeting with representatives from all parts of the criminal justice system to ensure any issues can be identified, raised and addressed early. This includes the Law Society representing defence advocates and this approach appears to have worked well.

1250 The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for answering the Question. With regard to the fact that it has not been taken up, does she think that is possibly because the inmates were not aware of it? I have certainly had representation to me that they felt that 1255 they could not get access to their justice.

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Also with regard to paperwork that needed to be passed between advocates and inmates, can she advise what the process for that was?

The President: Mrs Barber. 1260 Mrs Barber: Thank you, Mr President. I am certainly not aware that there have been any concerns raised in that regard, but if the Member does have specific examples I would be more than happy to pick that up with her and ensure that we respond appropriately for those specific circumstances. 1265 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Thank you. 1270 Would the Member agree that the appropriate channel for that would be for a prisoner to take that up through perhaps the Independent Monitoring Board; and is she aware of any concerns having been raised by the Independent Monitoring Board to the Department?

A Member: Hear, hear. 1275 The President: Mrs Barber to reply.

Mrs Barber: Thank you, and I can confirm that the Independent Monitoring Board have been available and accessible also. We took feedback from the previous lockdowns where we 1280 recognised that that had not worked as well as it could have, and that has been improved certainly on this occasion. I am not aware of any concerns that have been raised in that regard, but there are a number of ways in which prisoners can raise concerns, both internally within the Prison and, as Mr Speaker rightly states, through the monitoring board should they feel that they did not get a response that 1285 was appropriate to their circumstances. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Final supplementary, Ms Edge.

1290 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I actually have a copy of the Black regime and an awful lot of what the Member is talking about is not included in it, which I am quite surprised about. It is quite basic really. I totally respect that inmates do have access to, obviously, the Prison monitoring board etc.; however, during lockdown, if their court process was continuing there certainly perhaps might have been timing 1295 issues with regard to that. So I will discuss further with the Hon. Member following the sitting. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mrs Barber. 1300 Mrs Barber: I would just confirm I am happy to take that offer up from the Member and thank her for that. Thank you.

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INFRASTRUCTURE

14. DoI recycling areas – Number; bins for plastics

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

How many recycling areas the Department maintains; and how many of these have recycling bins for plastics?

The President: Question 14, Mr Moorhouse. 1305 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure how many recycling areas his Department maintains; and how many of these have recycling bins for plastics?

1310 The President: I call on the Minister for Infrastructure to reply, Mr Baker.

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. The Department of Infrastructure provides 55 bring bank sites that are accessible by the public for the deposit of glass bottles and jars, ferrous and aluminium cans and foil, and paper and grey 1315 card for recycling. Four of these sites are within civic amenity sites. There are an additional 11 bring bank sites that have restricted public access, these being located in, for example, a complex of residential homes or flats. In addition, the Department provides an on-request recycling service for some schools and other sites which, for safety or safeguarding reasons, are not accessible by the public. 1320 Four sites have receptacles for the deposit of plastic bottles for recycling. These are all located within civic amenity sites. Thank you.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse. 1325 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister, for that detailed Answer. What is the level of the Department’s ongoing negotiations with civic amenity sites to ensure the best recycling mix in an area? Thank you. 1330 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for his question and interest in this area. 1335 I can confirm, Mr President, that the Department works at officer level with local authorities associated with the Island’s four civic amenity sites to review the provision of re-use and recycling schemes at each civic amenity site and across local authority areas. The civic amenity sites and local authority recycling schemes are operated independently of the DoI. The only direct impact the Department can have on local recycling provision and rates is by 1340 way of: the bring bank scheme, collecting glass, cans and paper; and at civic amenity sites, plastic bottles; the all-Island scheme for household dry-cell battery recycling; and co-ordinating the contract for recycling of hazardous electrical and electronic equipment at civic amenity sites. Thank you.

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The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. 1345 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister what plans he has to introduce additional plastic recycling bins at other bring bank sites outside of the main civic amenity sites?

1350 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The Hon. Member for Middle raises a very important point around our plastic recycling, because the approach is not consistent across the whole of the Island and the right approach for 1355 plastic is one which does need further clarity. In my view, Mr President, we need to decide on an all-Island strategy around this and then we need to make sure we have got the right resources in place to deliver that strategy. My contention and my view is that the current Waste Strategy is more fragmented than is ideal on this Island. Plastic is a particular area of debate as to whether it is more appropriate to recycle it or for it 1360 to go through the Energy from Waste Plant. That is a debate which needs more exploration and that is something that I would like to see my Department and the Department for Environment, Food and Agriculture engaged on. We are very fortunate in having the Energy from Waste Plant here, which of course does generate electricity, and from that point of view is a sustainable solution. I think it is fair to say 1365 there is not a clear enough strategy that is communicated to the people of the Isle of Man around our plastic waste, so it is my intention to work with the Hon. Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to address this. Indeed, I believe that this will be an important element of our future electricity generation strategy: that we do more formalise the waste management strategy to support that. So there is more work to be done and I thank the Hon. Member for his question in 1370 that regard.

The President: Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. 1375 Do local people and environment groups have any way to influence DoI recycling options within walking distance of their homes? A particular issue is the recycled milk cartons which potentially could be used in a more effective way than being burnt. Thank you.

1380 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Again the Hon. Member makes some very relevant points. Recycling facilities being accessible to citizens of the Island is important. This is very much a matter for local residents and interested 1385 groups to liaise with their local authorities because it is very much about local provision. The Hon. Member makes a very important point about the milk cartons. I applaud the efforts of the Isle of Man Creamery in bringing forward their very environmentally friendly packaging which is intended for recycling. I am aware that the Creamery promotes a recycling scheme whereby those people who take advantage of the very good doorstep delivery service, which I 1390 think is of great value to the Island, (A Member: Hear, hear.) can actually acquire a box for a modest charge and can fill that with their waste cartons which the Creamery will take back. I believe that was possibly affected by the COVID situation in terms of their roll-out plans around that particular scheme, but it is something that I think is a very positive step and I would encourage the Creamery to continue with that and for the people of the Isle of Man to engage

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1395 with that, because that is actually making it as easy as possible for citizens to recycle their waste products. So I thank the Hon. Member for raising that.

The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.

1400 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I am grateful for the Minister’s being so candid this morning. I probably should first declare an interest, having a back porch stuffed to the gunnels with a load of recycling I have not yet removed. (A Member: Hear, hear.) But I have had contact from residents, both Onchan and Laxey, asking why have the plastic 1405 recycling bins been removed and, in Onchan, all the bins been removed from one site. So my question is really: I welcome an all-Island strategy, but isn’t it a bit too little too late? People were in the habit of recycling, but it is just too difficult. Even driving a distance to an amenity site is not as handy or as good for emissions as just going to a local bring bank, which quite often is full as well. 1410 So really my question for the Minister is people were in the habit of recycling, can he tell us: have the volumes, particularly of plastic bottles and cans, and even paper, been reducing in recent times because people are putting more into the general waste, which then goes to the Energy from Waste Plant? In fact, the comments he was making: is he suggesting that actually it is better, is it more cost effective to put plastic in the incinerator, or is he looking at it from an environmental 1415 perspective? So, yes, I really welcome an all-Island strategy on waste, but the question would be why hasn’t it come before and what is his Department doing to liaise with all the local authorities to make sure there is consistency over the Island so that people who do want to recycle have that facility available locally? 1420 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you very much, sir. A lot in the comments from the Hon. Member for Garff and I thank her for that and for her 1425 ongoing interest in this area. I am afraid I do not have the figures to hand to be able to answer the direct question around what has been happening to volumes, but I am very happy to ask officers to do some detailed analysis of that and to circulate that to all Hon. Members, because I think it is an area which is of significant interest to Hon. Members and to the population generally. 1430 The Hon. Member asks about whether I was talking from a cost-effective point of view or from an environmental point of view. The answer to that is that both factors need to be considered. We know that the plastic when it is collected is baled and exported to a reprocessing facility in the north-west of England and it is turned into a raw material which is then used in the manufacture of goods and clothing, which does replace the use of virgin, non-renewable hydrocarbons. 1435 However, the Hon. Member will be very aware that waste plastic bottles when they are deposited are very high volume and very low density materials and the logistics and the impact of recycling those is quite significant from both an economic point of view and an environmental point of view. So we have got what is the system that we currently have, where the volume is concentrated on the civic amenity sites, which of course can accommodate a large number of 1440 bins – and in the case of the Western Civic Amenity Site, a skip – to collect a high volume of bottles in one place. So there are economies of scale from both a financial point of view, but also from a carbon point of view in terms of that logistical exercise. So what needs to happen is the analysis of both the environment and economic aspects need to be refreshed and, in my view, a strategy that is 1445 consistent across the Island needs to be brought forward.

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We have a structure of waste management on the Island with regional boards. They are independent arm’s-length entities and are responsible for their own civic amenity sites, and because of that there is not a natural consistency between them. Each of those regional bodies makes its own assessment and its own arrangements, and that was seen in the response during 1450 the lockdown period when, whilst Government did not require them to close, a number of them did. I would like to thank them for the way they re-opened as the situation improved, but they are their own independent bodies. There is obviously liaison between my Department, with its local government role and its waste management role, with those local authorities and I am very keen 1455 to continue that and to move towards a more integrated and holistic solution for the Island going forward. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Clearly we could talk on this subject for a good deal longer, but I have two more 1460 supplementaries and then I was going to take Mr Moorhouse for a final one … if he wishes. (Laughter) Only if you wish!

The Speaker: Don’t be caught short! (Laughter and interjections)

1465 The President: Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I suspect that many people, including myself, diligently sort out their plastic bottles and take them to the civic amenity site on the way past. In his earlier response, the Minister suggested that 1470 this actually might not be the best approach and that burning them in the incinerator might be preferable. The question is really when will the Minister do the analysis and agree with the Minister for the Environment what the best approach is and share this with the accompanying rationale to the public? It would be good to know soon what the right thing is to do with these bottles. (A Member: Hear, hear.) 1475 Thank you.

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: I would like to thank the Hon. Member for his comments and fully endorse what 1480 he says. I, too, have an arrangement domestically to recycle my plastic bottles and they go to the Northern Civic Amenity Site, and I believe that I am doing the right thing. We talk about bottles, that is one thing but there are many other plastic products which are not able to be recycled, certainly in the Northern Civic Amenity Site, albeit I understand that perhaps the western has got a slightly broader range of plastic that it can recycle. So we do need 1485 to do better, Hon. Member; we need to give the public very clear guidance communicated in a very simple way so that they know what they should be recycling and what is better to go through the Energy from Waste Plant. That does need detailed work, it probably needs a bit more expertise than I have got, but I am quite happy to work with the Minister and come back to Hon. Members with a timeline by which we will do that. 1490 But it is important. It does sit with our climate change agenda and our electricity generation strategy, so we do not want to do this with undue delay, however we need to make sure it is right so the answer is: as quickly as possible, Hon. Member. Thank you.

1495 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: I thank you, Mr President. ______1785 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

I know the Hon. Minister likes to look forward rather than backwards, so can the Minister give us a date when he expects to revisit the 2018-22 Waste Strategy, which was obviously only done 1500 a few years ago to replace the 2012-20 Waste Strategy? Secondly, I am very excited about this local government reform which seems to have been announced; when can I expect that Douglas Borough Council will no longer have three separate waste management facilities in its own waste collection, in its own recycling and its own participation in the civic amenity site? 1505 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. I think the answer to the first part of the Member’s question is pretty much wrapped up in the 1510 answer to Mr Shimmins’ question, which is ‘as soon as possible’, but I would contend that if the current strategy expires in 2022 it is important that we get a new strategy in place for the time that that expires, which will be 2022, if not before. I would just like to again congratulate the Hon. Member for broadening the subject out and talking about local government reform, which I do not think I actually mentioned in the Answer, 1515 but –

Mr Thomas: An all-Island strategy?

The Minister: Well, an all-Island strategy may have implications which lead on to change 1520 elsewhere, but if we wrap everything in together I am sure the Hon. Member will acknowledge that we tend not to achieve very much. This is about the Waste Strategy and I do believe that we can do better and if there are implications from that then those will be what they are. So I am not going to comment on Douglas Borough Council, I am not going to talk about local government reform, but I am going to say that we need to push on with this particular aspect of 1525 the Island’s infrastructure and environmental management. Thank you.

15. Carraghan and Injebreck Hill footpaths – Restoring public access

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What action his Department is taking to restore public access to footpaths at Carraghan and Injebreck Hill?

The President: We move on to Question 15. Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 1530 I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure what action his Department is taking to restore public access to footpaths at Carraghan and Injebreck Hill?

The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Baker.

1535 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Member for Garff for her interest in this topic, which has generated quite a lot of public interest direct in to both myself and the Department.

______1786 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Mr President, it has been reported to the Department that signs have been put up with the intention of preventing access to this area. The Department is contacting the tenant and 1540 landowner to ask for the removal of the signs. This area of the hills is in private ownership and the path is not a formal public right of way. I can understand that the landowner or tenant may have erected the signs out of frustration over the public’s treatment of the path. The Department does have powers under the Highways Act 1986 to formalise the path and discussions with the tenant and landowner are the first steps in this process. My officers will be 1545 making site visits and plan to meet the landowner and tenant on site, now that the coronavirus restrictions have been removed. Thank you.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Caine. 1550 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister agree that the Island’s hills and uplands are a precious national resource for the physical and mental health of our people and that in the 21st century it is simply unacceptable to close off an extensive and beautiful area of the Manx countryside that the public 1555 has enjoyed access to for several decades?

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you very much. 1560 I wholeheartedly agree with the value of the uplands and the hills. They are a great asset and they are part of our Biosphere, part of what makes the Island such a special place to live and hopefully, in due course, to visit once more. I have answered the question articulated by the Hon. Member. Without knowing the precise circumstances, I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment on the landowner or 1565 tenant’s actions. However, my Department is in the process of dealing with this. We would like to reach an agreement with the landowner to formalise a public right of way across the land, and if an agreement to do that cannot be reached then the Department may make a presumption that it is a highway under the Highways Act 1986. The Department has confirmed the landowner’s and tenant’s addresses and written to them 1570 asking them to remove the signs in the first instance and requesting a meeting with the Department’s officers. So we are dealing with it, Mr President. Section 88 of the Highways Act 1986 is very clear about the presumption of dedication of a highway, and there has been a path over this land for some time, and probably substantially for more than 21 years. If I could quote section 88 of the Highways Act, it says:

Where a way over any land, other than a way of such a character that use of it by the public could not give rise at common law to any presumption of dedication, has actually been enjoyed by the public as of right and without interruption for a full period of 21 years, the way is to be deemed to have been dedicated as a highway unless there is sufficient evidence that there was no intention during that period to dedicate it.

1575 So Mr President, we have legislative provision here, we have what looks to be evidence that this has been in use as a public highway, that this is very much evidence that will be taken into account by the Department. We are dealing with it, and I would be hopeful of a positive outcome, one way or another over this. Thank you. 1580 The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President.

______1787 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

I am partially reassured by the Minister’s responses today. Would he agree with me that 1585 Carraghan and the established paths up this mountain are very dear to many people who live on the Island and that the withdrawal of access has become a very emotive issue for people, and if he is unable to resolve this matter amicably that it may be necessary to look at more widespread legislative change to resolve this problem, such is the strength of feeling on this matter? Thank you. 1590 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am very pleased that the Hon. Member is reassured by my response here, and I hope that the 1595 Hon. Member for Garff is too. I fully agree that these issues are of great importance to the Manx nation. It is important that we protect public access, particularly to our uplands and that – Sorry, there is a …

The Speaker: No flies on you, Minister! (Laughter) 1600 The Minister: And that withdrawal of something which has been used and enjoyed and valued is a very backward step. I absolutely want this to be to be resolved. It is clear from my Answer that the Department has a mechanism to move this forward. I am very keen to see that that happens. If it is necessary to 1605 go further with legislative change or whatever, then I will not hesitate to bring that forward if that is needed to solve the issue, Mr President.

Mr Shimmins: Hear, hear.

1610 The President: Final supplementary, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I am also somewhat reassured by the Minister’s response, at how the Department is taking action on this matter. But is he aware that reports are now coming in of signs going up around 1615 Slieau Whallian also? So it is looking like a more Island-wide issue, so perhaps could require a more general review, a willingness on the part of the DoI to use its power to create public footpaths by order under the Highways Act 1986. (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) I believe landowners can claim compensation if that happened but we have the situation, and I think there was no money in the Budget for the coastal footpath this year, and actually there are disappointingly inland diversions 1620 on the coastal footpath, including in Maughold, which undermine our offering to walkers. Final point: would he accept that while the Isle of Man gears up for opening up after lockdown and once again welcoming visitors, Manx hills and uplands are a significant tourist attraction and therefore an economic asset? Visiting walkers as much as the local people will want them to be accessible and the signage for that needs to be clear and comprehensive as to where people can 1625 and cannot go. I feel that, given the clamour there has been over the last few days, if the Minister, the Department fails to protect the public interest in this matter, it will increase pressure for ‘right to roam’ legislation that we do not have. We have marked paths over upland areas, but actually, if the walkers, if the ramblers start revolting and demanding ‘right to roam’ legislation, I think that would change forever the landscape of the Island. 1630 So I would urge the Minister to look at this on a more general level for public access to footpaths that many have walked for generations, but perhaps wider than the hills in Middle. Thank you, Mr President.

Mr Quine: Hear, hear.

______1788 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

1635 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for her comments. I was not aware of the issues around Slieau Whallian, but I am very happy to pick that up and get my officers to look at that, and have a conversation with the Hon. Member and find out a little 1640 bit more detail of where the specific problem is. I would be delighted to take that forward, because she makes an absolutely correct point. Public access is very important and our landscape is a great asset for the people of the Isle of Man, but also to underpin our visitor proposition. The hills and uplands are a key part of that, but I would also endorse her comments about the coastal footpath and indeed about the emerging Heritage Trail proposition, which is improving year on year. I think 1645 these are very important areas where we can step forward and make the Island even more attractive to visitors. Given that the Hon. Member has mentioned the coastal footpath, my Department is currently looking at plans as to how those elements of the coastal footpath that are not very coastal can be addressed. That is work in progress at the moment and it is something which I believe needs to 1650 happen, because the vast majority of the Raad ny Foillan is tremendous, and those sections that come inland somewhat let it down. We will be working with the Department for Enterprise and the visitor team to progress that. I know the Hon. Minister for the Department for Enterprise is very supportive of the Raad ny Foillan and of enhancing the Heritage Trail as well. So this is an area that I believe very passionately in. We have certainly got to protect what we 1655 have already got, but I think, Mr President, we need to go further. We need to improve. The one caveat I would make is that we must always remember that our hills and uplands are very important for our farming community and the paths on there have to be treated with due respect by the public. We do unfortunately have incidences of livestock worrying, and it is important that people do behave appropriately towards the animals and the people who make 1660 their living in those areas. So with that, Mr President, I will sit down. Thank you.

Mr Robertshaw: That was the short answer! (Laughter)

POLICY AND REFORM

16. Lobbying – Government policy

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

What the Government’s policy on lobbying is?

The President: Question 16. Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 1665 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform what the Government’s policy on lobbying is?

1670 The President: I call on the Minister, Mr Harmer.

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for her Question. ______1789 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

I have interpreted lobbying as being when an individual company or groups tried to persuade 1675 Government or parliament to support a particular policy or campaign. Whilst there is no current specific policy in Government on lobbying, standards of behaviour and governance in place for interaction with parties outside Government and parliament are embedded within existing guidance. These include, but are not limited to: the Government Code, including the requirements of the Ministerial Code and the Seven Principles of Public Life; Financial Regulations; declarations 1680 of Members’ interests; and Tynwald Members’ Code of Conduct. Lobbying covers both Tynwald and Government, so I will ask officers to review further on possible measures. Thank you, Mr President.

1685 The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I am actually quite alarmed that the Government of the Isle of Man does not have a policy on this, but I thank the Minister for saying that he will look into it. 1690 It actually follows on from my recent conflicts of interest motion as well, and with regard to the Question, obviously I was doing some research on the question earlier about 13th October and actually, officers are using the word influence in response to answers. So I just wonder how the Minister is going to address officers who obviously use those words and how is the Government going to make sure that the policy for employees within Isle of Man Government are 1695 made aware of what lobbying is? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply.

1700 The Minister: Thank you. Having read some of the evidence from the UK Parliament and so forth, the main issue is really around transparency and around that transparency and making sure that there are no takers and so forth. That is obviously already in the Ministerial Code, but it is these sort of things, when you see them elsewhere, they can happen here. We cannot be complacent. So that is why we need to 1705 really make sure and review that we do not suffer the same issues.

The President: Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 1710 Obviously it has broken out very recently in the UK, and there is an independent review into that. I just wonder, from a transparency point of view, Mr President, whether the Minister would consider, with any future reports coming to Government, actually putting down any possibilities where the Government may have had an organisation or been influenced by anything in a report coming forward. Particularly obviously I am very interested in the housing strategy that is due 1715 before this, and I wonder whether the Minister would commit to making sure that anything like that is published in a report from Government to ensure we are getting the transparency. This administration did say they were going to be the most transparent Government. Thank you, Mr President.

1720 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you. I think I take that point on transparency, and really it is an issue of transparency and considering the policies and possibilities. Yes, those need to be continually looked at. I am just very conscious, 1725 although I feel that there are many robust processes around the Ministerial Code and making sure ______1790 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

that people are … there is a note-taker and also there are detailing requirements on Ministers, for example, financial interests and the acceptance of hospitality and gifts, we always have to look at possibilities around ex-Ministers, around public servants and so forth. But the main issue with all of this, it is not that lobbying in itself is a bad thing. I think the report 1730 on lobbying in the UK Parliament, lobbying is part of that sort of testing of policy within public life. It is the fact that it is not secret and that it is transparent, that references are made to where it has happened, so everybody knows where the issues are. It is the secrecy element that is particularly where there would be a concern. Thank you, Mr President. 1735 The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.

Dr Allinson: Thank you very much, Mr President. Would the Minister agree with me that there is a huge difference between individual 1740 businesses or business representatives having access to Government to impart their viewpoint and professional lobbying to sway Government policy? Thank you.

The President: Minister. 1745 The Minister: Yes, and he is absolutely right. There is a massive difference between an individual business, if you like, trying to get preferential treatment, but that also applies to using other doors – through backbenchers as well. It is a parliament issue as well as a Government issue.

1750 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Mr President. I welcome the openness of the Minister and I ask the Minister whether he will consider further Ms Edge’s suggestion to consider housing strategy in the light of lobbying? For instance, there is 1755 a very powerful working group/steering group leading on housing policy, and it would be very important to make sure that housing association representatives had time, as well as local governments have time considering the policy development. Does the Minister agree?

1760 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I think that whole access applies to all strategies or any policy as it is formed. But I think the Member from Ramsey put it succinctly: the difference between an individual business trying to 1765 get a particular advantage rather than, if you like, a business view of industry or so forth. I think the two are very different. Thank you.

The President: Final supplementary, Ms Edge. 1770 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously, I am going to follow on from Hon. Member for Ramsey. He is quite right. There are differences and I think this is why the Government needs to commit today to creating a policy around lobbying so that not only parliamentarians, ex-officers and current employees actually 1775 understand what lobbying means to Isle of Man Government and I do feel this Government should have a policy on it. Thank you, Mr President. ______1791 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The President: Minister.

1780 The Minister: Thank you, and I thank the Member again for raising this. I think this is an important subject. It touches everywhere. So as I said, these will be considered further. Thank you.

17. Island’s regulatory framework – CoMin report and review of regulation

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

When the Council of Ministers will report on the Island’s regulatory framework; and if he will make a statement about the review of regulation?

The President: Question 17. Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas. 1785 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform when the Council of Ministers will report on the Island’s regulatory framework; and if he will make a statement about the review of regulation? 1790 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Harmer.

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member again for his Question. It gives me an opportunity to update this Hon. 1795 Court on this matter. The Council of Ministers will consider a further version of the report reviewing the Isle of Man’s regulatory framework later this week, with a view that should it be approved it will be brought to the May sitting for debate. Thank you. 1800 The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Minister for Policy and Reform agree with me that it might have been helpful to have 1805 a statement to that effect on the Order Paper? But it is a small point. Does the Minister for Policy and Reform agree that this report was concluded, as stated by the Chief Minister, in October 2019, back in December 2019, in Answer to a Question from Mrs Lord-Brennan and it is rather a long time in preparation since it was concluded back in October 2019? 1810 Secondly, just to ask all the supplementaries in one go, back in October 2019 and December 2019, Government put on hold the review of the Road Transport Licensing Committee pending completion of this regulatory review. Does the Minister agree with me that it is a bit frustrating for everybody that we have not made any progress on things like the reform of the Road Transport Licensing Committee because of this regulatory review that has been on hold for some time? 1815 Mr Robertshaw: Hear, hear.

The President: Mr Harmer. ______1792 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1820 Just to clarify, obviously there were a number of documents, and just to clarify the position, the Council of Ministers last considered a version of the report back in January 2020. While some parts of the report were suggested and approved, others were not. As previously advised in this Court and in another place, the report was not agreed by the Council of Ministers and not approved for publication. 1825 Further work has been done in the intervening period to develop the report further, so it is a very different document to what was presented in January 2020. That is the work that is being done. But obviously I am as frustrated as the Member in terms of the RTLC and review and how we need to move forward, and I am very keen personally to see this resolved.

1830 The President: Mrs Lord Brennan, supplementary.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister advise what it is that is taking so long and what the barriers are? I think barely a Tynwald sitting goes by where we do not talk about the importance of regulatory separateness, 1835 and it is actually quite a simple concept to grasp. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply.

1840 The Minister: Thank you. I agree with the Member that is a simple concept in some sense, and again express my own personal views around the regulatory independence – it is very good. Actually, the complexity comes in making this happen, and that is why a number of the … because there are many ways and different ways of doing this and many different approaches, and obviously the approach that 1845 was in January 2020, while some parts were accepted, other parts were not. So based on that and further work, that has now led to the subsequent report. What I should obviously just highlight, in the event of the fact, again, this year has been spent in lockdown and the same people that would work on this have been responding to the COVID-19 challenge again, and obviously that is one of the main reasons for the delay in respect of April, as 1850 opposed to May. Thank you.

The President: Final supplementary, Mr Thomas.

1855 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. So for the avoidance of doubt, has the Minister just advised this Hon. Court today that the body of work produced between January 2017 and December 2019 on the regulatory review, which was shown to backbenchers and Ministers, in the Environment and Infrastructure Committee, which was also shown to the Single Legal Entity sub-committee of the Council of Ministers, has 1860 been binned; it has been thrown away? Can the Minister advise that that is his intention?

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1865 I am delighted to confirm that that has not been the case. I said some parts were not accepted and other parts were. Thank you.

The Speaker: Been recycled.

______1793 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

PUBLIC SERVICES COMMISSION

18. IOMG COVID-19 Caring Responsibilities: Guidelines – Public service application

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chair of the Public Services Commission:

How the Isle of Man Government COVID-19 Caring Responsibilities: Guidelines have been applied across the public service; and if he will make a statement?

1870 The President: Question 18. Mr Thomas again.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Chair of the Public Services Commission how the Isle of Man Government COVID-19 Caring Responsibilities: Guidelines have been applied across the public service; and if 1875 he will make a statement?

The President: Chair of the Public Services Commission, Mr Harmer, to reply.

The Chair of the Public Services Commission (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. 1880 The Isle of Man Government is committed to supporting employees to continue to work where at all possible during periods of time when they are undertaking caring responsibilities caused by coronavirus, and to that end the Office of Human Resources/Cabinet Office has issued COVID-19 Caring Responsibilities: Guidelines. These Guidelines apply to all public service employees who have caring responsibilities for a disabled, elderly or sick partner, or a relative who has parental 1885 or caring needs of a child. The Guidelines set out a series of options such as agreeing an alternative work pattern, home working or using leave amongst others, which could be considered when an employee has caring responsibilities which may conflict with their work responsibilities in order to support an employee to continue to work. 1890 The Guidelines provide guidance to employees and managers, depending on individual circumstances. The most appropriate option may vary based on the nature and intensity of caring responsibilities. Departments have adopted a flexible and sensitive approach to applying the Guidelines throughout the pandemic. The Guidelines, which were first issued in March 2020, have been continuously reviewed and updated as necessary to reflect the changing circumstances. 1895 Most recently, the guidelines were updated in recognition of the ongoing closure of all schools and other childcare provision to include an additional option for paid special leave in accordance with an employee’s terms and conditions where no alternative work arrangements or childcare provisions could be put in place to enable an employee to continue to work. Particularly with the closure of all schools and other childcare provision, managers were 1900 encouraged to consider flexible solutions for their employees’ circumstances to avoid financial hardship, with particular emphasis on the use of paid special leave if other options available were not suitable.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Thomas. 1905 Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Mr President. What came through very clearly in that very helpful Answer from the Chair was that these were guidelines for employers and employees around the public service. Does the Chair have any information about whether or not these guidelines have been applied equally in the various parts 1910 of the public service? More specifically, the fact that PiP has been used to administer periods of ______1794 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

paid and unpaid special leave, for instance, does that PiP resource provide an opportunity for the Chair of the Public Services Commission and the rest of the Commission to actually understand whether or not these guidelines have been applied equally across the public service?

1915 The President: Chairman to reply.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Member. If the Member has any evidence where they have not been applied equally, then certainly I will look into it. I am not aware of any myself. 1920 One of the key things, though, is around the different options that will be applied to members of staff, in particular what is very important, that there will be flexibility in terms of individual arrangements. So those arrangements will vary by definition, because there are a number of options. So that is the sort of discussion that the employee and the employer will have in those particular circumstances. But obviously, as the situation changed, the Guidelines were updated. 1925 The President: Final supplementary question.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Clearly there will be differences in the application between individuals in their different 1930 circumstances, but my question is about the different interpretation of the guidelines by different employing bodies across the public service. So does the Chair have any evidence that the health service has been applying it differently from the education service and some of Statutory Boards – Post Office, MUA, for instance? I ask because there are commonalities and differences are perceived to have existed widely 1935 during the COVID period, particularly recently. So perhaps we need to move beyond guidelines to being more prescriptive in terms of how these guidelines will be interpreted. For instance, there is a specific mention in these Guidelines about paid special leave provision for hub schools and childcare provision returns. That is a very specific example. Does the Minister agree that we need to revisit whether guidelines are appropriate in this 1940 situation?

The President: I call on the Minister to reply.

The Chair: Thank you. 1945 As has been highlighted before, these Guidelines continually get reviewed, and after this latest experience they will be looked at again and where improvements can be achieved, that always will be the case. So for example, taking some extracts from the Guidelines ‘agreeing an alternative shift or working pattern’ – and obviously all of these guidelines are on the website, so both the employer 1950 and employee in those different Departments can … it is there for them to discuss. So it may be that the work pattern:

… accommodates the caring requirements of the employee and can be accommodated within operational requirements. […]  flexible or home/remote working … […]  redeployment temporarily to a role that can accommodate alternative shifts … […]  using available annual leave, flexi leave or TOIL  consideration … to … special leave –

– and so forth. So there are many different ways and the idea is to be as flexible as possible. So the only caution I would have in that flexibility needs to be retained. 1955 Thank you, Mr President.

______1795 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

CHIEF MINISTER

19. Positive COVID-19 tests – Recording and publishing

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chief Minister:

Whether individual positive COVID-19 tests are recorded and published?

The President: We turn to Question 19, Hon. Member Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister whether individual positive COVID-19 tests are recorded 1960 and published?

The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. 1965 The results of individual positive tests are recorded on a customer relationship management system for contact tracing, self-isolation and other purposes, and against the patient record for the individual concerned. Naturally, for patient confidentiality reasons, the results of the individual positive test are not published, although the Isle of Man Government does publish broader statistics around the numbers of positive tests on the gov.im website dashboard, which 1970 is updated daily. If an individual tests positive on more than one occasion during the period they are ill, then this is recorded, as it will likely result in the extension of their self-isolation requirements. However, if an individual tests positive more than once, that only represents one case in the totals. Thank you, Mr President. 1975 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Chief Minister for his response, because obviously there was some concern in a recent media conference and the Chief Minister was 1980 queried about a patient that did test positive more than once. That was the answer that he gave: that if you test positive more than once, beyond 14 days, you are still just one case. So I am just wondering if the Chief Minister would … I just do not feel that that is quite transparent enough from a public perception point of view, that I have tested positive and I am a statistic, but if I test positive in day 21, I am not a new statistic. I am still that individual case. I am 1985 just not quite sure whether we are being really clear on the statistics and the number of cases and I think the impression that was given, certainly at the press conference, was that if I then went on to contract COVID at a later date, I would still be classed as that one case. Thank you, Mr President.

1990 The President: Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. To the best of my knowledge, we follow that the normal ways of recording something. Every now and then you have someone who sheds COVID for 20 to 30 days. It does not mean to say that 1995 each time they have a test we record them as a separate, individual case. They have caught COVID, sometimes it takes them longer for their body to shed it, or they can be shedding dead cells which still register on the test. So we have had, I think, at least two or three cases where we would have been recording them multiple times as separate cases, Mr President. ______1796 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

So I understand the Hon. Member’s concerns but I do believe that the system we have in place, 2000 which is a common system, is the right way. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Dr Allinson.

2005 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Chief Minister agree with me that what the public want to know is the number of people who have got COVID, not necessarily the number of tests those people have had to prove that? Thank you. 2010 The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: I wholeheartedly agree with the Hon. Member for Ramsey’s comments. Thank you, Mr President

Bills for signature

2015 The President: Now, we move to Question 20, but before we do, I can announce that the following Bills are ready for signature: the Elections and Meetings (Local Authorities) Bill 2021; the Communications Bill 2018; and the Medicines (Amendment) Bill 2020. With the consent of the Court, I shall circulate the Bills for signing while we deal with other business. (Members: Agreed.) Agreed? Thank you.

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

20. Manx Health Service resiliency – Threats to public safety

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

What work is under way to build resilience within the Manx Health Service to address any future pandemics and similar threats to public safety?

2020 The President: Question 20. Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what work is under way to build resilience within the Manx Health Service to address any future pandemics and similar threats to 2025 public safety?

The President: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mr Ashford, to reply.

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. 2030 The last 12 to 15 months has seen considerable strain on all parts of the health and care system, and it would be remiss of me not to begin my Answer with recognition of the outstanding

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contribution everyone has made in the health and care system in support of the COVID pandemic. (Mr Hooper: Hear, hear.) Despite the overall positive position we have seen in relation to case numbers on the Island, 2035 there has been a relentless ask behind the scenes in keeping our health and care system COVID- ready and also supporting the pandemic response; for example, swabbing, testing and vaccinations. Nevertheless, DHSC is acutely aware that the pandemic has not been without considerable challenges in maintaining the status quo, and we have on a number of occasions had to stop all but urgent and emergency care on the Island. 2040 However, we have over the last 12 months, with the learning and management of COVID, and with facilities in place, focused on ensuring that despite any wider COVID lockdown access to services has been maintained at a higher level each time. Nevertheless, despite this position, community transmission, changes in social distancing, increasing fallow time for extra cleaning, use of PPE, all make a difference to the level of activity that can be delivered through services. 2045 As I have referred to in other public statements, the pandemic has also resulted in a change in the way some services are delivered and, where clinically appropriate, the use of virtual appointments has increased significantly both on and off the Island. It is our expectation that this position continues where it is clinically appropriate. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Hon. Members will also be aware that Manx Care has published their return to services in the 2050 last few days, following the last lockdown, but the DHSC/Manx Care have well-established escalation plans for all parts of the system that are ready to be enacted at any time. In reality, as time has continued, the ability to respond to the demands of the pandemic have already been enacted. Workforce will going forward, and it has in the last lockdown, remain one of our biggest issues, 2055 with the level of staff self-isolating and shielding the biggest risk for the Department overall. Different issues cause the need for a differing response, and in the last lockdown we were able to maintain a fully resourced vaccination programme, testing programme and services across the system. This has not been without its challenges and throughout the last 12 months staff have continued to work very long hours day after day with little or no annual leave. Where possible, 2060 we have worked on solutions that are less dependent on individuals or single suppliers, enacting plans throughout the last 12 months. But with a small workforce and many single teams, the reliance is inevitable. A learning review around COVID is already under way across Government, of which DHSC and Manx Care will contribute. Within this, consideration of future pandemic resilience beyond the 2065 business continuity resilience will be considered. Turning to the resilience of services themselves, Mr President, our elective programme has been one of the most affected, as directly linked to valuable bed capacity. This is in the backdrop of an already significant backlog pre-COVID. The post-COVID lockdown position has only amplified this issue and the need to transform patient pathways as part of the Transformation Programme 2070 brought even more to the fore. The work needed not only includes investment in community and primary care services, rather than reliance on secondary care models, but a much broader consideration of health and well-being on the Island with the development of stronger public health policies, which is also part of the Transformation Programme. DHSC and Manx Care have already begun some work on validating the waiting lists in place, 2075 supporting additional clinics where possible, but will also be preparing for consideration of a backlog reduction plan. Our ability to resource support from the UK in delivering this plan is unlikely and therefore we need to think dramatically differently about how we use our existing pressured system as part of any future pandemic response. Thank you, Mr President. 2080 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. ______1798 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

I would like to thank the Minister for that quite comprehensive Answer. The two words that 2085 jumped out for me from all of that that he said was it was a ‘relentless ask’ of the staff within our health service to keep things running. I am quite reassured that the Minister did talk there about work already being under way to start looking at how we prepare perhaps for this happening again. The question I would ask the Minister is does he agree that, actually, it is imperative that this 2090 work is done now, whilst the learnings are fresh in the minds of all these people that have played such a vital role in keeping things together? Does he have any indication as to when he would expect the initial responses to be published and available for people to consider?

The President: Minister to reply. 2095 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I fully agree with the Hon. Member for Ramsey. It is absolutely crucial that we do it now, while things are fresh, while people who have actually had the lived experiences of lockdown are able to contribute into it and the issues around pandemic. 2100 Obviously the Department has had a pandemic response plan since about 2015, I think was when it was done, but that was a theory document up until last year, when we actually for the first time had to enact it. The plan actually stood up pretty well in general, but I think there are plenty of things that we can actually learn from it. I would expect, in terms of timescales, I would certainly hope that initial documents would be before the end of this year, Mr President.

21. Vaccination programme – GP surgery statistics

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

Pursuant to his Answer to Question 4 at the House of Keys sitting of 30th March 2021, why the breakdown of statistics requested for each GP surgery cannot be obtained from the Department’s records utilised to send vaccination letters?

2105 The President: Question 21, Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care, pursuant to his Answer to Question 4 at the House of Keys sitting of 30th March, regarding JCVI vaccination letters, why the breakdown 2110 of statistics requested for each GP surgery cannot be obtained from the Department’s records utilised to send the letters out? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: I call on the Minister to reply. 2115 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. As detailed in my response last month, the DHSC has followed JCVI in priority group order, both in terms of vaccine letters and vaccinations, with the few exceptions noted in my previous Answer. There is a great deal of data available regarding the vaccination programme, all of which is 2120 available to Hon. Members and the public to view on the Government website. Where data has been collected, it is of course sometimes possible to provide the information in different ways or to provide additional information. If I understand the Hon. Member for Onchan’s request, she is asking for the number of patients who have been called for vaccination ______1799 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

prior to priority groups 4 and 6, broken down by age and by GP practice. The only patients that 2125 were called before priority groups 4 and 6 were those people obviously in priority groups 1, 2 and 3. To give you an example of why the information is not available, Mr President, in the format the Hon. Member is asking for, people in the priority groups were identified in a particular way. For example, part of priority group 2 is all frontline health and care workers. That group was 2130 identified through their work and vaccinated accordingly, so their employment records. Priority groups 4 and 6 were identified through GP practice systems as those patients’ medical records indicated that they had a clinical condition that placed them in priority groups 4 or 6; and those priority groups which were purely based on age have been simply called by age, irrespective of the GP practice in which they were registered. 2135 All vaccination information is provided to the GP practices to be placed on each patient’s GP medical record. Employment details are not recorded as part of a patient’s GP record, and therefore it is not possible to identify priority group 2 by GP practice from the GP patients’ records. Data available online already breaks down the number of people vaccinated in each priority group. In terms of patients called for vaccinations, those patients in priority groups 2 and 3, called 2140 before priority group 4, total 7,989; 5,167 patients aged 70 called as part of group 4 with the clinically extremely vulnerable; and there were 5,102 patients who were identified as clinically extremely vulnerable. There were 5,008 over-65-year-olds called as part of priority group 5 before priority group 6; and then 10,035 patients called as part of priority group 6. There have been additional patients sent letters as they have been identified or diagnosed by GPs and hospital 2145 consultants. Once again, Mr President, I would stress that a significant amount of data regarding the vaccination programme is available on the COVID vaccine webpage and dashboard, with that data being able to be manipulated to look at different sections, and I encourage the Hon. Member for Onchan to review the data, Mr President. 2150 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. That was a really long Answer for the Minister. The actual basic question I asked was: why 2155 could the stats not be requested, which was by GP practice for each JCVI priority group, when the letters have been sent out in that format? The Minister is very aware, because I am sure he had representation from Members as to people being called earlier than their age group, and he mentioned the age group; so I do not understand why, if the record is available to send a letter out, that it cannot be available to provide 2160 that public information, by GP, of individuals that were in each JCVI group. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister.

2165 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Quite simply, because the majority of letters were those within the age categories and those within the age categories were generated from the central system based on someone’s date of birth. So I need to be absolutely clear, they were not necessarily generated by the GP system. The GP system was used to identify those within the clinically vulnerable categories and the purpose 2170 of them identifying was to identify the underlying condition. Equally, as I pointed out, health and care staff were called forward as part of priority 2, Mr President, and they were identified by their employment records, which are not held by the GP surgeries. They do not hold records of employment.

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So to try and cross-reference all the different sources would actually be a huge task for the 2175 Department, Mr President, and one, with all the other pressures the Department is under, I am not willing to undertake.

The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.

2180 Mr Shimmins: Thank you very much, Mr President. I can see that this has been challenging in terms of the different data sets between the GP systems and the Department of Health. Would the Minister agree with me that actually it is in the patient’s interests, and also that of the overall public health that we have one seamless health record across the Island? Is it not possible for the Minister to bring some sort of order and 2185 legislation to this Hon. Court to resolve this once and for all, so that everyone can move forward? Thank you.

The President: Minister to reply.

2190 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I fully agree with the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. I have long had on public record my view that we should have one healthcare record. The problem is at the moment, legally, I believe, the situation is that the records that are held by the GPs are the data property of the GPs, not the Department – is certainly the information I have been given in the past – and that we 2195 cannot access those without the GP’s permission, which sometimes we have found challenging. So there does need to potentially be a law change there to require it and I would be fully supportive of such a change, Mr President.

Mr Shimmins: Hear, hear. 2200 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Mr President. Does the Minister agree with me that the GPs can be seen as the patients’ champion against 2205 the bureaucracy of the DHSC and the centralised Health Service? Following on from that line, does the Minister agree with me that there is a perception out there amongst the GPs and amongst the public that certain GPs knew what they were supposed to do in terms of priority invitations more than other GPs did, (A Member: Hear, hear.) so consequently, there are variations around the Island depending on which GP you are under? 2210 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Taking the last point first, and I never miss an opportunity to allow the Hon. Member a line, in 2215 relation to the advice around the JCVI principles, I asked to see the advice that was given to the GPs’ surgeries. It was very clear as far as I can see, Mr President. The JCVI advice themselves, that they published, was very clear on how the assessment should be made, and that was shared exactly the same with every GP practice so that should not have caused any issues. GPs most definitely are patient champions. They know their patients better than anyone and 2220 they are dealing with them day in, day out, and our GPs are an absolutely central part; Sir Jonathan Michael’s Review had primary care at scale at its very heart because if we are going to start delivering things in the communities the GPs have a huge and important role to play in that. It should not be GPs fighting against a centralised bureaucracy, it should be the Department, Manx Care, as is now, and the GPs working hand in glove to ensure that patients on our Island get the 2225 best health and care system that they can. ______1801 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. The Minister in his earlier Answer made reference to the COVID dashboard with the data on it. 2230 I am just curious as to how he is progressing getting that data cleaned up so it is actually a reliable indicator of the numbers of individuals and all the various groups. In relation to his comments around data, would he not agree that actually individuals’ medical records should be their property as it is their medical record and their personal data that is at question and should not be the property of anyone else? 2235 The President: I call on the Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Not much I can actually disagree with in relation to what the Hon. Member said. It should be 2240 the patient’s property, but my understanding previously has been that in terms of data access rights the Department does not have the right to access without the GP’s permission, and on some occasions – not on all occasions, but on some occasions – that has been challenging in the past, I believe. In relation to cleaning up the data, the Hon. Member is fully aware, because we have had 2245 conversations on this, of the need particularly in the vulnerable categories to clear up the data, it is going to be challenging and it is a manual exercise to go through those particular two priority groups – and it is those two particular priority groups – around the vulnerable category and we may need to seek the GPs’ help and assistance on that, Mr President.

2250 The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously, I totally agree with the Hon. Member for Middle; it does seem ludicrous when you go to see a consultant that he cannot directly see your GP records and certainly if you are in 2255 attendance in a hospital in the UK. So I totally agree and I am sure the Minister will do his utmost to make sure that is down for the legislative programme in the future. But my question for the Minister really is: whilst they are going through and tidying up it is quite clear that the letters have had to be provided in a file format to then be printed and posted, and quite clearly for 10,000 people in priority 6 I would expect in this day and age that we would 2260 have an electronic system for ... and I am sure it is an electronic transfer system that came through to Isle of Man Post Office to support the Department of Health and Social Care. So therefore that electronic file could be looked at and filtered out by GPs, because there were certainly elements of angst in society that people at certain GP practices were getting their vaccines early. I think that is really important, Mr President, that we have the opportunity to make 2265 sure whilst the tidy up is going on or to actually … The Minister is a technical person and he was a project manager. I am sure he will have the fix to be able to provide this information by GP practices.

The President: Minister to reply. 2270 A Member: A project for you there!

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am sure it would fill Manx Care and the DHSC with horror at the thought of me trying to fix 2275 their systems! (Laughter) It certainly fills me with horror, to be perfectly honest, never mind them! In relation to what the Hon. Member is saying, I can see where she is trying to go with this, but what was provided to the GPs’ surgeries would not give her what she is looking for, Mr President, ______1802 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

because what was provided was simply the names and addresses of individuals that they said should be vaccinated as part of that priority group. They did not provide what conditions they 2280 suffered from, as such; they simply said they were okay for vaccination. They did not provide their dates of birth, and that was then amalgamated by the Department and sent out. So it will not provide necessarily the information that the Hon. Member is looking for.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson. 2285 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister agree with me that, although this original Question is of historical interest, what we are now at is a stage where everyone over the age of 20 is getting letters to come forward for vaccination? Would he also agree with me that there should be a clear message that anyone 2290 over the age of 20, whether they have a letter or not, should now register online their interest in the vaccination, so the vaccination programme can be accelerated so we can move forward as a community through the Exit Framework? Thank you.

2295 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I would most certainly agree with the Hon. Member for Ramsey and I would like to take the opportunity to thank all those who have been involved in the vaccination programme. 2300 (A Member: Hear, hear.) To try and do the logistics around this has been absolutely phenomenal and the way they have delivered and the speed that we have moved through the various different groups, particularly in the phase two groups of age, I think deserves all credit. There has been a lot of stress involved for the staff and there has been an awful lot of work involved, so I would like to pay tribute to them. 2305 It is important now that people come forward and register for their vaccination and the Hon. Member is right, it might be of historical interest to go back, but the amount of work that would be involved in reconciling going through, I do not think for what we are looking at would actually be worthwhile for the Department’s resources at this time.

2310 The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Mr President. Does the Minister want to agree with me that many 16-to-20-year-olds have actually already taken advantage; and would he like to think about allowing UK mobile phone numbers to be used, 2315 so they do not have to keep borrowing my phone to actually phone up the booking service? Or to change the regulation of the telecommunications to deal with that? Secondly, does the Minister agree with me that he has to be very careful, himself, talking about DHSC having access to patient information, because the world changed on 1st April and Manx Care is presumably the one that has more information access than the DHSC now? 2320 And thirdly, does the Minister want to give an update on where we are in terms of the care record project, which has some date in the mid-2020s as a completion date, in terms of what he is expecting now for completion of the Manx Care project?

The President: Minister to reply. 2325 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Off the top of my head I think the date was 2023, which actually is not that far off now. As far as I am aware, that is still on course for it to be 2023-24.

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I would love to help alleviate the Hon. Member’s personal situation around mobiles, but I will 2330 need to take that away and look at it. The Hon. Member for Douglas Central is correct, there are numbers now within those age categories registering. I have got the dashboard here in front of me and in just the 30-35 category there have been 752 vaccinations already delivered; there are another 1,000 booked. Then when we start going into the late 20s now, we have got over 500 first doses booked in. 2335 So it is exceptionally encouraging. We are seeing much better uptake here on Island than when you compare to some other jurisdictions, and I hope that that will continue.

The President: Final supplementary question, Ms Edge.

2340 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Minister for considering the historical interest in this, but I am concerned about the here and now. He has frequently said that if people have not shown up for a vaccination … if he does not have access to this data, how is he going to chase them up through their GPs to try and encourage? The best person to encourage anybody from a medical term is going to be when they 2345 visit a GP surgery, so how is the Minister going to do that?

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2350 The GP surgeries will go back through the records on the EMIS system to see who has and has not been vaccinated, and they will contact them accordingly from their patients. That is how it will be done. That is the here and now. The here and now – and I put the message out again – is that anyone in those age groups now, even the younger age groups, we call them forward to get a vaccine, and I would encourage everyone to do so. 2355 The President: Hon. Members, that concludes the Oral Question Paper in its entirety. We shall adjourn and move on to the Statement by the Chief Minister at 2.30 p.m. May I remind Hon. Members that there is a presentation at 1.45 p.m. on behalf of the Tynwald Standing Order Committee, of which you were notified earlier; and that, of course, is in relation to Item 5 on our 2360 Order Paper. Thank you, Hon. Members.

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Questions for Written Answer

JUSTICE AND HOME AFFAIRS

12. Domestic abuse victims – Discreet portal

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mrs Corlett) to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:

What progress his Department has made to enable the use of a discreet portal to provide information and help to victims of domestic abuse?

The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs (Mr Cregeen): I can confirm we have made good progress. Officers from my Department have engaged with Hestia who provide the Bright Sky app and website which powers the online safe spaces portal. I can confirm that Hestia has kindly 2365 agreed to carry out development on their service to allow Isle of Man postcodes to be recognised which then enables Isle of Man users to search for services relevant to them locally. My Department has provided Hestia with contact details for services which meet the criteria set out by Hestia and we are now waiting for them to be uploaded. We have agreement that the Isle of Man Government website will host the online safe spaces portal and we will be approaching 2370 other organisations to seek their agreement to implement the portal once we have confirmation the service is live.

CHIEF MINISTER

22. International aid – Budget allocation and spending

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister (Minister for the Cabinet Office):

If he will publish (a) the 2020-21 budget allocation for international aid, and (b) a breakdown of expenditure against that budget, including the total spending for the year?

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): (a) Original budget – £2,500,000 for all international aid. (b) Breakdown of 2020-21 financial year expenditure:

Disaster Emergency Committee £700,000.00 Small Grants £315,626.00 Small Countries Financial Management £2,827.31 Awareness Raising Grant £30,000.00 International Partnerships £1,200,000.00

Total £2,248,453.31

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23. COVID-19 cases in Government – Since 1st January 2021

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chief Minister:

How many COVID-19 cases have been identified among Government employees since 1st January 2021, broken down by Department, Office and Board?

2375 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): The number of COVID-19 cases identified in Government employees since 1st January 2021 is detailed in the table below:

Department, Board, Office Number of absences Cabinet Office 3 Department for Enterprise 1 Department of Education, Sport and Culture 20 Department of Environment Food and Agriculture 1 Department of Home Affairs 13 Department of Infrastructure 20 General Registry 1 HM Attorney General's Chambers 2 Isle of Man Post Office 3 DHSC/Manx Care 8 Manx Utilities Authority 2 Treasury 5 Total 79

24. COVID-19 Prevention, Suppression and Mitigation Strategy – Key factors; effective communication

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Chief Minister:

What the key behavioural and environmental factors are that people, business and public sector should have regard to under a Prevention, Suppression and Mitigation Strategy for COVID-19; and how these will be communicated to the public effectively in order to support individual decision making and management of risks?

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Against a background of an increasingly vaccinated population, where becoming vaccinated needs to mean something for people, balanced with the potential threat of new variants of concern, it is proposed to provide people with choice in relation 2380 to the measures they can take, moving Government away from people’s day-to-day life, whilst at the same time ensuring public messaging continues to provide clear and practical guidance in preparation, in the event that a new variant of concern becomes a threat. Council has agreed to move away from all mandated community (non-border) restrictions on 19th April to the provision of advice and informing individual choice. 2385 The messaging to both the wider community and business community will provide the central spine of simple messaging that will enable continued advice, post circuit break removal, to those who remain concerned and normalise such measures, for those who may feel less at risk, when they see people exercising that choice in public places. Naturally, some measures, such as not going to work when feeling ill, particularly with COVID-19 symptoms, and contacting 111 are 2390 considered vitally important with the messaging maintaining a more robust stance in encouraging people to do both.

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The move towards choice for people to engage with whichever measures they feel comfortable with, i.e. face coverings, social distancing etc., needs to be balanced against the need for business to trade and ensuring the ability of business to react to potential threats as they arise when 2395 considering advice to business as well as the requirements of health and safety in the workplace. The updated version of Government’s Exit Framework, which is informed by Tynwald Members and industry feedback, will be brought to April Tynwald. This will set out the approach to learning to live with COVID-19 and ‘Maintaining Healthy Habits’, and will set out the high level communication strategy going forward. 2400 Government will continue to use a variety of platforms in both digital and traditional media to ensure that the latest Public Health information on risk mitigation is available to the public. We will also work through key partners in the public, private and third sectors to ensure that everyone has the information they need to keep themselves and their community safe.

25. COVID-19 mortality rates – Risk comparisons

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister:

What the mortality rates are for those contracting COVID-19, broken down by age group; how much this risk reduces by having had (a) one dose of vaccine and (b) two doses of vaccine; and how these risks compare with other everyday mortality risks?

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Infection fatality rates are set out in Table 1 of the JCVI Green 2405 Book, Chapter 14a (COVID-19), p. 3. For ease, this can be seen here:

Category Population SARS-Cov-2 Confirmed Infection Estimated Size antibody COVID-19 fatality ratio number of prevalence % deaths2 % (95% CI) infections (95% CI)1 (95% CI) Total 56,286,961 6.0 (5.7, 6.8) 30,180 0.9 (0.9, 0.9) 3,362,037 (3,216,816; 3,507,258) Sex – Male 27,827,831 6.5 (5.8, 6.6) 18,575 1.1 (1.0, 1.2) 1,729,675 (1,614,585; 1,844,766) Sex – Female 28,459,130 5.8 (5.4, 6.1) 11,600 0.7 (0.7, 0.8) 1,633,785 1,539,821; 1,727,749) Age (years) 15-44 21,335,397 7.2 (6.7,7.7) 524 0.0 (0.0, 0.0) 1,535,884 (1,436,941; (1,634,826) 45-64 14,405,759 6.2 (5.8, 6.6) 4,657 0.5 (0.5, 0.5) 895,238 (837,231; 953,244) 65-74 5,576,066 3.2 (2.7, 3.7) 5,663 3.1 (2.6, 3.6) 181,044 (153,426; 208,661) 75+ 4,777,650 3.3 (2.5, 4.1) 19,330 11.6 (9.2, 166,077 14.1) (131,059; 200,646)

1 All estimates of prevalence adjusted for imperfect test sensitivity and specificity (see text for details). Responses have been re-weighted to account for differential sampling (geographic) and for variation in response rate (age, gender, ethnicity and deprivation) in final column to be representative of the England population (18+).

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2 Infection fatality ratios were calculated excluding care home residents. Confirmed COVID-19 death counts were obtained from https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-inEngland-week- ending-17-jul-2020.html. Deaths in care homes by age on 12th June 2020 were obtained from www.ons.gov.uk. Total deaths in care home residents up to 17th July 2020 were obtained from www.ons.gov.uk. The age stratified estimates of COVID-19 deaths were then estimated using the total deaths from 17th July and the age distribution from 12th June. We assumed that age distribution of deaths did not change between 12th June and 17th July 2020.

Overall monitoring of vaccine effectiveness is done by Public Health England, and their publications can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/phe-monitoring-of-the-effectiveness-of-covid- 19-vaccination. 2410 Regarding the impact of having one dose of vaccine, the latest findings are that: ‘by the end of March 2021, it is estimated that 9,100 deaths were averted in individuals aged 80 years and older, 1,200 in individuals aged 70 to 79 and 100 in individuals aged 60 to 69 years, giving a total of 10,400 deaths averted in individuals aged 60 years or older.’ There is not yet any data available to distinguish between the risk of dying of COVID-19 if you 2415 contract it after one or two doses of vaccine. The vaccination trials showed all approved vaccines to reduce the number of diagnosed cases of COVID-19 and cases of serious illness in the vaccinated compared to the unvaccinated. The trials were not able to determine whether this was due to preventing infection or preventing symptomatic/serious infection. Further evidence on all these outcomes will come through the ongoing monitoring in due course. 2420 Estimating the risk of death from COVID-19 compared to other risks is complex. A recent study in the British Medical Journal found that: ‘for the general population, the risk of catching and then dying from COVID-19 during 16 weeks of the pandemic was equivalent to experiencing around 5 weeks extra “normal” risk for those over 55, decreasing steadily with age, to just 2 extra days for schoolchildren. For those over 55 who are infected with COVID-19, the additional risk of dying is 2425 slightly more than the “normal” risk of death from all other causes over one year, and less for under 55s. Analogy with normal risk seems an appropriate and useful tool for risk communication of lethal risk, although it does not deal with longer term harm to survivors.’ [Spiegelhalter et al] This shows that the risk is dependent on the risk of catching COVID-19, which varies depending on infection levels, behaviours, and other risk factors. For this reason, it is not possible to provide 2430 simple and direct comparators like ‘lifetime (or even annual) risk of dying from COVID-19’ compared to ‘lifetime/annual risk of dying in a road accident’, for example.

26. COVID-19 – Government policy on further lockdowns

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Chief Minister:

What the Government’s policy is on the threshold criteria in terms of incidence of COVID-19 cases in respect of the possibility of further full lockdowns?

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): The rollout of the vaccination programme allows us to begin to live with COVID-19 and move to a strategy of mitigation as a proportionate approach to reduced future risk. 2435 With a move to mitigation, we will undoubtedly see cases of COVID-19 within the community. However, with an increasingly vaccinated population this poses a materially different threat to that faced earlier in the pandemic when vaccination had not begun or was in its early stages. As a result, the likelihood of our healthcare system being overwhelmed will continue to reduce as vaccination rollout continues.

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2440 There is a period between the lifting of measures from 19th April 2021 and the completion of first and second doses of the vaccine when there will still be risk that would otherwise be partly mitigated once those vaccination milestones are reached. During the period between lifting of restrictions and the population being vaccinated, the response to any outbreak of known variants that respond to vaccination ideally will be limited to 2445 enhanced advisory messaging to the public informing individuals to make their own choices, for example, choosing to wear face coverings. Once this period has passed, community cases of known variants that existing vaccinations are effective against should not trigger any response above general public messaging aimed at promoting good-practice hygiene and informing personal choice. 2450 Increasingly, the threat from COVID comes from the potential for Variants of Concern that available vaccinations are not effective or as effective against. Border controls will provide mitigation against this threat but Government must continue to be prepared to act should an outbreak occur that threatens the ability of the healthcare system to cope. Levels of response have been prepared that set out a stepped approach to interventions that 2455 could be introduced depending on the threat being faced. These would always be a last resort and would of course need to be proportionate to the threat they are intended to mitigate. As set out, for variants that current vaccines are effective against, no community restrictions are expected to be necessary. With regards to threshold criteria in terms of incidence of a COVID-19 Variant of Concern, what 2460 has become apparent as the pandemic has developed is that threshold criteria are usually overly simplistic as a trigger point. Instead, a range of indicators have informed decisions in order that the response can be tailored to meet the threat. The updated version of Government’s Exit Framework, which is informed by Tynwald Members and industry feedback, will be brought to April Tynwald. This will set out the approach to learning 2465 to live with COVID and include the high-level outbreak response for any residual threats, the first stage of which would be additional public messaging to raise awareness and inform personal choice.

27. 2015 Gas Agreement – Government responsibility for surviving clauses

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:

Pursuant to his Answer in Keys of 9th March 2021, who is responsible in Government in respect of the surviving clauses of the 2015 Gas Agreement?

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Parties to the 2015 Agreement retain the same rights in respect of the enforcement of the surviving clauses as they did in the Agreement pre-termination. 2470 In terms of Government, these parties are therefore Treasury, the Department for Enterprise and the Office of Fair Trading. Only those clauses set out in clause 16 (survival) remain in force, which are:

• Clause 1 – Definitions and Interpretation; • Clause 8 – Change Process Procedure; 2475 • Clause 10 – Trademarks and Trade Names; • Clause 11 – Compliance; • Clause 12 – Confidentiality and Non-Disclosure; • Clause 17 – Dispute Resolution; • Clause 20 – Notices;

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2480 • Clause 27 – Third Party Rights; and • Clause 28 – Governing Law.

Which Government body would take action for a breach in any instance would depend upon the nature of the breach.

28. General Election 2021 – Candidates’ expenses

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister (Minister for the Cabinet Office): 2485 How each Keys 2021 General Election candidate needs to log (a) expenses incurred standing as a candidate in the local authority general elections in July 2021, (b) expenditure by registered political parties since 23rd September 2020, and (c) any expenditure by political and public policy research and action groups since 23rd September 2020?

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): The Elections (Keys and Local Authorities) Act 2020 provides that all candidates, successful or otherwise, are required to submit declarations of donations and expenses, and that the information is then made available for public inspection. This is intended 2490 to support openness and transparency and to establish a level playing field for all candidates. The ‘relevant period’ that candidates and prospective candidates must log their expenses and donations commences one year before the scheduled date of the election. Therefore, individuals seeking election to the House of Keys in 2021 must account for all expenses and donations in the period from 24th September 2020 to 23rd September 2021 (polling day), irrespective of the date 2495 when they announce their intention to stand. The Act also provides the Electoral Registration Officer with powers to investigate in the event of a complaint alleging that a candidate’s election expenses have exceeded the maximum amount. In order to assist candidates, a document has been published on the Government website that sets out guidance on election funding: 2500 https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210420_Q28_Link.pdf

How each Keys 2021 General Election candidate needs to log: (a) Expenses incurred standing as a candidate in the local authority general elections in July 2021 The rescheduled local elections in July will take place before the deadline for nominations for the House of Keys General Election in September. Therefore a person is not able to be an official candidate for both elections at the same time. It is possible that a candidate in the local election could be a prospective candidate for the national election, if he or she has declared his or her 2505 intention to stand as such. Sections 71-79 of the Elections (Keys and Local Authorities) Act 2020, which make provisions in respect of election donations and expenses, currently apply only to elections to the House of Keys. The forthcoming local elections will be held under the provisions of the Local Elections Act 1986. 2510 There is no provision in the Act which states that an individual who incurs expenditure or receives donations in respect of his or her candidacy for a local election must declare the same regarding his or her candidacy for a Keys election. However, if a candidate in the local election subsequently stands in the national election and reuses materials to support his or her Keys campaign, such as posters and placards, the cost of

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2515 those materials should be recorded where the expenditure/donations occurred during the relevant 12-month period.

(b) Expenditure by registered political parties since 23rd September 2020 This is explained in the guidance on election funding. The relevant part is repeated below and includes illustrative examples.

A political party must register in order to support or endorse candidates for election to the House of Keys. You cannot accept support or endorsement from a political party unless it is registered. It should be clear when a candidate is supported or endorsed by a political party, as it must be explicit and made publicly. If either of these conditions is not met there can be no endorsement.

Illustrative example Stating in your public declaration that you intend to stand as a candidate or a political party would mean that you are supported/endorsed by that party. However, simply agreeing with policies of a political party would not amount to you being endorsed by that party.

If your candidacy is endorsed by a political party, you are deemed to have consented to any expenditure incurred by the party on your behalf.

Illustrative example If a political party pays for posters to be printed to encourage electors to vote for their candidate, the printing costs would be accounted for by that candidate as a notional expense (as well as a donation from the party to the candidate).

The same rules regarding apportionment apply to expenditure for multiple candidates supported by a party.

Illustrative example If a party that has endorsed four candidates places an advert in the newspaper urging electors to vote for these candidates, the cost of this advert would normally be split into four and each quarter share counted as part of the total expenses allowed to each candidate. However, if, for example, common leaflets were printed for a number of candidates supported by a party, it might be possible to prove that the cost should be apportioned according to the relative sizes of the constituencies concerned and the number of leaflets needed in each.

The same rules regarding donations also apply to candidates supported by political parties. Therefore, any money provided to you by a political party for use towards your election campaign is regarded as a donation and must be declared if it amounts to £50 or more or sums amounting in the aggregate to £50 or more. However, members of a political party who, for example, spend their free time distributing manifestos or leaflets do not make a donation in terms of their time as long as it is provided by an individual (and not, for example, by a company or organisation), free of charge and undertaken in the individual’s own time.

(c) Any expenditure by political and public policy research and action groups since 23rd September 2020 If this amounts to election expenditure incurred by a candidate during the relevant period, 2520 whether actual or notional, it must be declared in accordance with the legislation. The guidance on election funding provides comprehensive assistance to candidates to identify how donations and expenditure need to be recorded and declared. The guidance provided to candidates is intended to complement rather than replace other sources of information. If candidates have any doubts about a particular point they are 2525 encouraged to seek their own legal advice. It is not possible to legislate or provide guidance for every possible scenario that may arise during the course of a candidate’s election campaign. In assessing a particular issue, candidates are encouraged to ask themselves a simple question: ‘Am I spending this money or receiving these services as part of my election campaign and to 2530 increase my chances of success or to try to prejudice the chances of another candidate?’ If the answer to the question is ‘Yes’ then the item concerned should be considered as an election expense and recorded as such.

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TREASURY

29. Bona Vacantia fund – Projects funded since 2016 and cost

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

What projects have been funded from the Bona Vacantia fund since 2016; and at what cost?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The following projects, along with the total cost of each, have been funded from the Bona Vacantia fund since 2016: 2535  Year of Our Island 2018: £232,695 (£330,000 allocated);  WW1 Commemorative 50p coin for children in education: £50,000;  Arts Council and Culture Vannin via DESC for projects to support the National Development for culture in the arts in the Isle of Man: £130,000;  Family Library: £350,000; 2540  Live at Home Scheme: £60,000. Total cost: £884,695.

30. Bona Vacantia fund – Amount added since 2016 and current total

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

How much was added to the Bona Vacantia fund since 2016, broken down by source; and what the current total in the fund is?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Monies added to the Bona Vacantia fund can only come from two sources: (1) Assets held, on the Isle of Man, by a company at the point of its dissolution; and 2545 (2) Individuals who die intestate.

The total amount added to the fund since 2016, to date, is £615,313.86, broken down as follows: (1) Companies: £613,156.43 (2) Intestate Estates: £2,156.83

2550 The current total held in the fund, as at 14th April 2021, is £5,133,662.86

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POLICY AND REFORM

31. Single Legal Entity Committee Report – Laying before Tynwald and next steps

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

When he will lay the Council of Ministers’ Single Legal Entity Committee Report: Continuing Evolution of the Isle of Man Government before Tynwald; and if he will make a statement about the next steps?

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Council has given initial consideration to the report received on 11th February 2021 but further consideration has been delayed due to competing priorities connected to responding to the COVID-19 pandemic. It is expected that further attention to this matter will be given in the near future; this will include establishing a 2555 timetable regarding the next steps, and I will inform Hon. Members of this as soon as I am able.

HM ATTORNEY GENERAL

32. Property service charge debt – Legal options for recourse

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask HM Attorney General:

What options for intervention or recourse exist outside the High Court process for property management companies in connection with service charge debt?

The Attorney General (Mr Quinn): There are a number of options that exist outside of the High Court process for property management companies in connection with service charge debt.

Recourse under any lease The starting point for any failure to pay a service charge is the lease itself. The terms of any lease should be considered on a case-by-case basis. 2560 If a tenant has entered into a covenant with a landlord or management company to pay a service charge, then any failure to comply with this covenant could potentially be a breach of lease. In respect of recourse for the landlord or management company, it is usually the case that a notice will be served on the tenant to remedy the breach within a prescribed amount of time. A landlord or management company may have a right within the lease to charge interest on any late 2565 payment of service charge. The lease may also set out any dispute resolution procedures to be followed and may contain provisions for a third party to determine any disputes as between the landlord and the tenant. Failure to remedy such breach may ultimately lead to the lease being forfeited. Any steps taken in this regard should comply with section 11 of the Conveyancing (Leases and Tenancies) Act 1954. 2570 In practice forfeiture is a difficult and expensive process and a means of last resort.

Alternate Dispute Resolution A property management company has the option of dealing with any dispute in relation to service charge payments by means of alternate dispute resolution such as mediation.

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The Property Service Charges Act 1989 (the ‘Act’) as amended by the Property Service Charges (Amendment) Act 2003 and the Property Service Charges (Amendment) Act 2020 Where the reasonableness of a service charge levied (or to be levied) is in question, a landlord (including any person who has a right to enforce payment of a service charge) has the option of 2575 applying to the Isle of Man Rent and Rating Appeal Commissioners (the ‘Commissioners’) for determination. The provisions of the Act centre around the reasonableness of the service charge which has been or is due to be charged. Pursuant to section 2A of the Act, a Landlord to whom a service charge is alleged to be payable to may apply to the Commissioners for determination: 2580 (a) whether expenses incurred for services, repairs, maintenance, insurance or management were reasonably incurred; (b) whether services or works for which expenses were incurred are of a reasonable standard; or (c) whether an amount payable before expenses are incurred is reasonable. 2585 The Property Service Charges Act (Applications) Rules 2003 sets out the procedure to be followed in any application under the Act. Section 11A of the Act also allows a landlord to apply for a charging order on the property.

Service Charge definition Section 1(1) of the Act describes a ‘service charge’ as being:

an amount payable by the tenant of a dwelling as part of or in addition to the rent – (a) which is payable, directly or indirectly, for services, repairs, maintenance or insurance or the landlord’s expenses of management; and (b) the whole or part of which varies or may vary according to the relevant expenses.

‘Relevant expenses’ are defined in the Act as meaning:

expenses or estimated expenses (including overheads) incurred or to be incurred in any period by or on behalf of the landlord or a superior landlord in connection with the matters for which the service charge is payable whether they are incurred or to be incurred in the period for which the service charge is payable or an earlier or later period.

2590 The information provided is a general overview and should not be relied upon as legal advice for a specific circumstance as there are many factors which may impact upon the steps that should be taken. A management company who has issues in relation to the enforcement of a service charge debt should take independent legal advice.

EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE

33. Childcare during lockdown – Provision at NSC

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

How many children were provided with childcare at the NSC over the current lockdown; and which groups of key workers were (a) offered and (b) eligible for accessing this childcare?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): The National Sports Centre 2595 facilitated a childcare hub only for the duration of the Easter School Holiday period – from 29th March to 9th April and on Monday, 12th April prior to schools re-opening on 13th April. On week 1, 11 children attended. ______1814 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

On week 2, 19 children attended. On 12th April, 14 children attended. 2600 Staff from the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) were offered the provision for week 1 as it was anticipated that the demand for this service would be significant. Once it became clear that there would be sufficient space available for additional children, DHSC and Department of Home Affairs (DHA) employees were offered the opportunity to make use of the provision for week 2 and on 12th April. 2605 The DHSC and DHA determined which of their staff required this essential service and were responsible for authorising a place(s) in the hub prior to Manx Sport and Recreation completing the booking process and confirming directly with the parents.

34. COVID-19 and schools – Recent return of children; ongoing considerations

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Why not all schoolchildren could return even partially during the week commencing 12th April 2021; and what matters parents and schools should be considering regarding COVID-19 and schools in the coming months?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): The Department has always planned for a phased return to schools before allowing all children and young people back. 2610 In relation to primary schools, we have allowed for those vulnerable children and those of essential workers to be allowed back first. In respect of secondary schools, we have allowed for selected Year 11 and 13 students to be brought back first in order to allow them to work with teachers to complete the work that will determine their summer grades by 21st May. 2615 The phased and gradual approach means we can pause or make changes quickly if needed. Under current proposals all children and young people will return to their settings from Monday, 19th April. In relation to what parents and schools should be considering regarding COVID-19 and schools in the coming months, I would ask parents to remain vigilant for any signs or symptoms of 2620 COVID-19 in their children and ask them not to send their child into school if they have concerns and to call 111 for advice. In respect of schools, initial priority will be to ensure that both staff and students settle back into school quickly. The focus will be on assessing students’ needs, from learning and emotional health perspectives, so that appropriate support can be accessed. This may include additional 2625 pastoral support in the school, educational welfare officers and educational psychologists who will be keeping in close contact with all schools over the coming weeks, and if necessary will be able to offer bespoke advice and support. Additional cleaning arrangements will remain and schools will continue to promote good hand hygiene practice to students of all ages and to staff on a regular basis. Staff and students will still 2630 be able to wear face coverings should they wish and sanitise their hands, with ventilation being encouraged.

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ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE

35. Home improvement grants and loans – Reintroduction; use of climate change funds

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

What plans he has to reintroduce home improvement grants and loans similar to those previously available under previous Energy and Conservation Schemes to support people to address the issue of damp in their homes; and whether funds to support that from existing schemes for climate change to this end can be used?

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): I gave a previous commitment to look at home improvement grants to support people to address the issue of damp in their homes. The Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture will explore potential options to 2635 provide support, however, any future scheme to address the issue of damp in homes will be subject to Treasury concurrence and Tynwald approval. The aim of the Environment Protection Fund is to provide revenue funding for initiatives in the Isle of Man that support the objectives, defined in the Council of Ministers Climate Change Action Plan, of achieving net zero carbon emissions by 2050. My Department is working to introduce a 2640 Green Living Grant which is specifically aimed at improving the energy efficiency of homes and reducing greenhouse gas emissions in buildings. It is therefore not suitable to extend the scope of the Green Living Grant to address the issue of damp in homes, as this is unlikely to reduce carbon emissions.

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

36. Off-Island psychiatric intensive care – Residents receiving in 2018-20; cost to DHSC

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Christian) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

How many Isle of Man residents left the Island in (a) 2018, (b) 2019 and (c) 2020 for treatment in psychiatric intensive care; and at what cost to the Department?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The Mental Health Service did not 2645 source any off-Island psychiatric intensive care beds during this period. There have, however, been 83 cases during this period in which specialist off-Island inpatient provision was secured. Table 36A provides a breakdown of the volume of patients and associated cost per financial year. This provision is only secured where there is a highly specialised clinical need that cannot be delivered locally.

Table 36A Financial Year No of patients Cost 2018-2019 27 £4,065,970.15 2019-2020 29 £4,285,912.99 2020-2021 27 £3,942,518.92

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37. Learning Disability Residential Facility places – Cost per annum

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

How much a full time residential place at a Learning Disability Residential Facility costs per annum?

2650 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Unfortunately it is not possible to provide a definitive Answer to this Question as the costs for a residential place are not standard but based on the assessed needs of the individuals residing in each home. Additionally, when a service user’s needs change there is often a resultant change to the cost of support provision. However, as a guide current approximate costs for an Adult Learning Disability residential 2655 placement are specific to each home with individual costs per annum falling within the following range:  Placement for an adult with a learning disability and additional complex health or care needs = £109,000 per annum  Placement for an adult with a learning disability without additional complex health or care 2660 needs = £50,000 per annum

38. Learning Disability Residential Facility – Respite cost per night

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

How much a night’s respite at a Learning Disability Residential Facility costs?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): It is not possible to provide a definitive Answer to this Question as the costs per overnight stay are dependent on unit capacity and based on assessed individual need and compatibility of service users. An average cost, based on current information, for a single night of residential respite care = 2665 £285 per person.

39. Hospital waiting lists – Details at 31st March 2021

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

How long hospital waiting lists were at 31st March 2021, broken down by (a) specialist area, (b) length of time patients have been on the list, (c) urgent, (d) non-urgent, and (e) number of (i) consultants and (ii) doctors per specialist area?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Please see via the link below a breakdown of waiting list numbers for a first consultant-outpatient appointment and average/max. times waited broken down by specialty and urgency as at 31st March 2021 23:59:59.

https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210420_Q39_Link.pdf ______1817 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

2670 The breakdown of the number waiting by urgency is not available in this particular reporting which is saved daily. The reporting for outpatient waiting lists is not configured in a way to show the number of consultants under each specialty. With additional time this could have been provided.

40. COVID-19 hospital admissions – Breakdown by age group

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

If he will provide a breakdown of the age profile of individuals admitted to hospital for treatment for COVID-19 during each of the three lockdown phases?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): In response to the Question please see 2675 below the numbers against each age range of people admitted to hospital during each of the three Isle of Man lockdowns who had a positive COVID-19 test result up to 21 days prior to admission or during an admission in the date ranges provided below:

First Lockdown 26/03/2020 – 18/05/2020 Second Lockdown 07/01/2021 – 01/02/2021 Third Lockdown 03/03/2021 – 15/04/2021

Lockdown Age Bands Count First Lockdown 20-29 1 First Lockdown 30-39 2 First Lockdown 40-49 1 First Lockdown 50-59 6 First Lockdown 60-69 4 First Lockdown 70-79 13 First Lockdown 80-89 16 First Lockdown 90+ 8 Second Lockdown 40-49 1 Third Lockdown 0-9 1 Third Lockdown 20-29 3 Third Lockdown 30-39 4 Third Lockdown 40-49 9 Third Lockdown 50-59 7 Third Lockdown 60-69 14 Third Lockdown 70-79 4 Third Lockdown 80-89 1 Third Lockdown 90+ 1

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41. COVID-19 hospital admissions – Number two weeks after vaccination

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

How many people have been admitted for treatment for COVID-19 more than two weeks after having received their first vaccination dose?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): In response to the Question there have been two people admitted for treatment for COVID-19 more than 14 days after their first dose of 2680 the vaccination

INFRASTRUCTURE

42. Recycling bins in south – Dates emptied since 1st January 2021

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

When the recycling bins in the south of the Island have been emptied since 1st January 2021?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): In advance of the most recent lockdown, from 1st January 2021 all the bring sites in the south were serviced at least once a week, as per the contracted terms and conditions.

Parish Location Collection Cycle as per contract

Sites With Full Public Access Arbory Arbory Hall Weekly Castletown Farrants Way Car Park Weekly

Castletown Castletown FC, Malew Road Weekly Castletown Shore Road (Promenade) Weekly Castletown Southern 100 Weekly Malew Rushen Abbey Car Park Weekly Malew Ballasalla Commissioners (NODE) Weekly

Port Erin Shoprite, Bridson Street Weekly Port Erin Off Station Road Weekly

Port Erin Breagle Glen Car Park Every 3-4 weeks Port St Mary Lime Street Weekly Port St Mary Clifton Road North Weekly Port St Mary Promenade Weekly Rushen Southern Civic Amenity Site Weekly Rushen Colby Glen Every 2 weeks

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Sites with Restricted Access Malew Ballasalla PS Every 2 weeks Castletown King William’s College Every 3-4 weeks Castletown Castle Rushen High School Every 3-4 weeks Castletown The Buchan Every 3-4 weeks

Castletown Victoria Road School Every 3-4 weeks Port St Mary Port St Mary Primary School On request

During the lockdowns, when the Civic Amenity Sites and schools closed, these Bring Banks were 2685 not in use, therefore collections were not carried out at these sites. The other sites were initially emptied as per the contracted collection schedule. However, demand for the Bring Banks increased during the latest lockdown and, as a result, many of these local sites soon became overwhelmed. Although sites were emptied, they were filled again extremely quickly, giving the impression they had not been serviced. 2690 Additional site servicing was undertaken in response to complaints and as operational capacity permitted. As these collections were undertaken on an ‘as and when’ basis it is not possible to provide details of the number of additional collections each site obtained during lockdown. Additional resources over and above the contractual requirements have been made available for a temporary period to supplement the Bring Bank collections. These resources are being 2695 targeted towards the high-use Bring Sites, which are the Civic Amenity sites and main supermarket car-park sites such as Tesco and Shoprite.

43. Horse tramway – Budget for completion

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

How much of the additional £1.2 million required to complete the horse tramway will be allocated to (a) track installation, (b) road surfacing, and (c) other work; and whether this was previously included in the Promenade Scheme budget?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The design of the horse tramway project from Broadway to the Sea Terminal is still being developed. It is estimated that the installation of the rails will account for 50% of the costs, surfacing will be approximately 25% and ancillary costs, 2700 contingencies and preliminary costs will account for the final 25%. The sum was previously included within the Tynwald approved budget for the scheme.

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44. River maintenance by DoI – Details for last five years

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What river maintenance the Department completed in each of the last five years, broken down by (a) river and (b) culvert?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): I can confirm that my Department has undertaken river maintenance work on designated watercourse rivers since becoming responsible for such from 1st November 2020, as follows:

Douglas Catchment including Dhoo and Glass 2705 2020-2021 River maintenance on Tromode Weir, Carrs Lane.

Neb Catchment 2020-2021 Tree debris removal on River Neb near Emery’s Weir; and 2020-2021 Emergency tree removal from River Neb near power station.

Sulby Catchment including Glen Auldyn 2020-2021 Debris removal from Sulby Bridge to Kerrowmoar; 2020-2021 Tree debris removal near Dalveich; 2710 2020-2021 Removal of tree debris at Sulby Bridge and Kella Mill Weir; 2020-2021 Tree removal, Glen Auldyn; 2020-2021 Emergency bank repair, Wheatstone/The Haven, Glen Auldyn; 2020-2021 Removal of tree debris river blockage, adjacent to Gardner’s Lane, Glen Auldyn; and 2715 2020-2021 Soluform bag scour repairs, Glen Auldyn.

Silverburn 2020-2021 Emergency debris and tree removal.

The work undertaken prior to 1st November 2020 is covered within the Answer to Question 50, provided by the Manx Utilities Authority, who were the responsible authority for such matters 2720 prior to that date. The Department carried out the following works during this period:

Laxey Catchment including Glen Roy 2020-2021 Design and management of debris catcher construction, Glen Roy; 2019-2020 Highway boundary river wall repair, Glen Road; 2019-2020 Tree and debris clearance following severe flooding; 2019-2020 Scour repair to river walls. 2725 In each of the last five years work on culverts was carried out as follows: The Department inspected defined highway culverts once every two years. The following significant work was also undertaken: 2017 Jurby East bridge/culvert was replaced (Lhen trench); 2730 2020-2021 The Gretch Veg, Laxey Culvert was replaced and its capacity increased; and 2020 In the Follit Dhoon area, several culvert repairs were undertaken.

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45. Air conditioning in Government buildings – Servicing policy and records

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What his policy is on servicing ventilation and air conditioning units in Government buildings; what records he keeps of the servicing completed; and if will he publish them?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): There are various ventilation units installed across numerous Government buildings and these are serviced in line with industry standards. These technical standards will differ with each specific unit and vary depending on the environment 2735 within which the units are operating. By way of example, differing standards apply to healthcare premises, general offices and sports centres. Records of servicing are held in different formats depending on the type of unit and on the location where the units operate. It is not the Department’s intention to publish these records.

46. Landlord-tenant disputes – Introduction of dispute resolution body

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What plans there are to introduce a dispute resolution body outside the tribunal process with appropriate experience to review and determine issues between landlords and tenants and provide recourse?

2740 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The Department of Infrastructure does not provide consumer advice; that is the responsibility of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading. My Department has no plans to introduce a dispute resolution body at this time but is of course happy to support the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading if any issues arise.

47. DoI conflict of interest over gas – Public bodies’ consumption versus regulation

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

How his Department managed the conflict of interest between its responsibility in Estate Shared Services for the terms on which gas was consumed by public bodies and authorities and its responsibilities for gas regulation; and what representation his Department made regarding its potential signature of the 2015 Gas Agreement?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The 2015 Agreement was signed by the 2745 Department of Economic Development, the Treasury and the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) with Manx Gas. The Department was not party to any of the negotiations and was not asked by any party to become involved. The Department works with public bodies and authorities to ensure efficient use of energy, including gas. It does not become involved in the terms associated with consumption of gas by 2750 such bodies. ______1822 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

As previously reported, the Department’s involvement in gas regulation is limited to being able to deal with complaints made under the Act. To date the Department has not been called upon to do so. If at this point it was apparent that there was any conflict of interest with this the Department would act accordingly to deal with this matter.

48. Electricity costs for public bodies – Charges paid and volumes consumed

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What the (a) standing and (b) unit charges paid for electricity by all public bodies and authorities are; and what the volume consumed is at each standing and unit charge level?

2755 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): (a) DoI does not record what the standing or unit charges paid for electricity by all public bodies and authorities are. (b) The table below shows energy usage in kilowatt hours used in the 12 months preceding February 2021 in high-use buildings that the Department manages.

Site Name KWh Site Name KWh Site Name KWh Anagh Coar Primary School 29,456 Hills Meadow Depot 90,518 Ramsey Grammar School 335,358 Peel Road West and South Andreas Primary School 48,373 House of Manannan 140,302 Red Quay 177,938 Arbory Primary School 48,896 IOM College Campus 568,017 Rushen Primary School 107,047 Homefield Road Ashley Hill Primary School 75,701 IOM Airport – Main 2,606,636 Scoill Phurt le Moirrey 63,151 Ronaldsway Station Road, Port St Mary Ballacottier Primary School 114,161 Jurby Primary School 51,101 Scoill Vallajeelt 55,857 Ballakermeen High School 710,513 Kewaigue Primary School 42,043 Scoill Yn Jubilee Infants 30,034 School (Ballaquayle) Ballasalla Primary School 54,387 Kirk Michael Primary School 48,952 Scoill Yn Jubilee Junior 39,357 School (Murrays Road) Ballaugh Primary School 25,685 Laxey Primary School 35,626 Sea Terminal/Tongue 651,701 Braddan Primary School 40,104 Manor Park Primary School 41,182 Southern Swimming Pool 112,635 Bunscoill Ghealgagh 12,940 Marown Primary School 41,668 Southlands, Southern 446,876 (St. John’s Old School) Community Health Care Bunscoill Rhumsaa Infants 72,018 Murray House 144,816 CentreSt. John ’s New Primary 76,013 School (Auldyn) School Bunscoill Rhumsaa Junior 148,774 Mwyllin Doo Aah Flats 94,695 St. Mary’s RC School 56,153 School (Ree Goree) Castle Rushen High School 335,712 New Animal Waste Plant 353,316 St. Ninian’s High School 648,825 (Lower) Bemahague Chester Street Car Park 253,876 Nobles Hospital 1,336,739 St. Ninian’s High School 321,533 Ballamona Estate, 2 (Upper) Communications House 196,292 Nobles Hospital 7,423,331 Sulby Primary School 38,865 Ballamona Estate, Primary Cronk-y-Berry Primary School 115,901 Northern Swimming Pool 438,712 Victoria Road Primary 50,011 Crookall House 68,364 NSC Pool 1,280,373 SchoolVilla Marina 511,311 Dhoon Primary School 26,098 Onchan Primary School 67,744 Western Swimming Pool 184,073 Drumgold Street Car Park 123,201 Peel Clothworkers 141,318 Wildlife Park 371,920 Primary School Ellerslie Depot 170,984 Peel Marina 251,569 Willaston Primary School 64,227 Finch Hill House 132,228 Police Headquarters, 367,863 (Financial Crime Unit) Dukes Avenue, Douglas Foxdale Primary School 36,864 Poortown Quarry 507,098 Gaiety Theatre 76,343 QEII High School 255,826

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Government Offices – 1,005,896 Ramsey Cottage Hospital, 726,137 Prospect Hill Cumberland Rd, Ramsey Henry Bloom Noble Primary Ramsey Grammar School 152,154 62,079 School East

49. Sea and air services provision – Objectives and constraints in negotiations

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What the objectives and constraints are for continuing negotiations regarding the provision of sea and air services?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The policy framework for our air and sea services 2760 remains unchanged but our world has not. Tynwald Court has on a number of occasions in recent years supported proposals that directly affect the objectives for and provision of our air and sea services. Examples would include the Programme for Government, the Sea Services Policy, budget approvals for investments in our airport and of course the purchase of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company Ltd. Those policies and decisions remain in place. 2765 More recently we have had to adapt to the challenges of the global pandemic so current priorities are based on the need to preserve these approved objectives as far as is possible within the constraints of the current public health, economic and fiscal climate.

MANX UTILITIES AUTHORITY

50. River maintenance by MUA – Details for last five years

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority:

What river maintenance the Authority completed in each of the last five years, broken down by (a) river and (b) culvert?

The Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority (Mr Baker): Work undertaken on the designated watercourse rivers and their principal tributaries from 2016 to November 2020 is shown below. 2770 For environmental reasons, maintenance in river channels is restricted to emergency repairs and tree removal from November to March. Data from December 2020 onwards is provided by the Department of Infrastructure under Tynwald Question 44.

Douglas Catchment including Dhoo and Glass

Installing additional rock armour to protect the gabion wall, NSC and 2015-2016 Power Station area 2015-2016 Trimming of trees, NSC 2015-2016 Gravel shoal removal, NSC

2016-2017 Rebuilding river wall, Tromode Tree removals and trimming around The Meadows, Tromode and 2016-2017 NSC/Pulrose Power Station wall

______1824 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

2016-2017 Repair under bridge, The Falls, Tromode 2016-2017 Repair to river wall, NSC

2017-2018 Tromode Weir crest repair Removal of 4 x trees, upstream of Quarterbridge; Nunnery Weir; 2017-2018 Braddan Bridge and Tromode 2017-2018 Removal of defective gabions, Sir Georges Bridge 2017-2018 Removal of trees, Paper Mill, East Baldwin Removal of 5x trees and additional limbing, Snugborough and 2018-2019 Opposite Tesco 2018-2019 Rock protection for NSC gabion wall 2019-2020 Removal of trees in River Dhoo, Union Mills 2019-2020 Clearance of vegetation, Pulrose Power Station gabion wall 2019-2020 Gravel shoal removal and disposal (500 tons), River Glass, NSC 2019-2020 Tree, Vegetation removal and disposal, River Glass, NSC River channel clearance, River Dhoo from Union Mills to Braddan Bridge and River Glass at Tromode and Castleward Farm, River Glass 2019-2020 Removal of debris from slipway, Leigh Terrace Tree removal, River Glass at Paper Mill, Baldwin and Sir George’s Bridge 2020-2021 Removal of large tree & root ball, adjacent to Nunnery 2020-2021 Tree removal, adjacent to Tromode Road, River Glass 2020-2021 Tree and debris removal, Castleward Farm, River Glass Incineration of Japanese Knotweed arising from river channel clearance 2020-2021 Removal of Knotweed/ vegetation on gravel berm, River Glass, NSC

Laxey Catchment

2015-2016 Replacement of river wall, 'Riverbank', Laxey 2015-2016 Laxey Woollen Mill Weir repairs 2015-2016 Emergency repair to Laxey Fire Station river wall

2016-2017 Removal of tree across designated river and up Glen Roy 2016-2017 Clearance of large tree pile, Glen Roy 2016-2017 Design and construction of permanent repair to Laxey Fire Station river wall 2016-2017 River wall repair works, Swales Bridge

2017-2018 Additional river works, Laxey Fire Station 2017-2018 Emergency works at Laxey Shore Hotel river wall 2017-2018 Removal of debris on weir 2017-2018 Removal of river gravel deposits, Glen Moar estate 2017-2018 Removal of collapsed wall opposite tennis courts 2017-2018 River wall repairs adjacent to Laxey Shore Hotel

2018-2019 Removal of 4x trees opposite Laxey FC and by Captains Hill, Laxey 2018-2019 Additional repair to Laxey Shore Hotel river wall 2018-2019 River bank ‘stob and mesh’ repair, Glen Moar 2018-2019 Rock armour installed at Glen Moar 2018-2019 Removal of debris, Laxey weir 2018-2019 Vegetation and Debris clearance for asset inspection

2019-2020 Gravel shoal removal, Glen Moar 2019-2020 Laxey Woollen Mill Weir repairs 2019-2020 River corridor trees & vegetation removal and up Glen Roy 2019-2020 Scour protection to river walls2019-2020 Emergency repairs following severe flooding 2019-2020 Clearance of trees adjacent to MER Weir, Glen Road

2020-2021 Emergency tree removal 2020-2021 Tree removal opposite Victoria Terrace 2020-2021 Debris removal, Gretch Veg stream 2020-2021 Debris removal, Glen Moar 2020-2021 Tree management, Laxey Weir and adjacent bank 2020-2021 Removal of two ash trees, Cooil Roi

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2020-2021 Rock armour scour protection works 2020-2021 Installation of debris catcher structure in Glen Roy 2020-2021 River corridor scour repairs using concrete bag work 2020-2021 Scour hole repair, Mines Road

Neb Catchment

2015-2016 Design & replacement of river wall, West Marine House, Mill Road 2015-2016 CCTV survey of culverts at the end of Springfield Terrace 2016-2017 River wall to protect electricity pylon, Patrick Road near Shenharra Farm 2016-2017 Embankment repairs Shenharra Ford 2016-2017 Remedial work to protect electricity pole near Ballawyllin, Patrick Road 2016-2017 Bank repair works, Ford House, St Johns 2016-2017 Remedial works and Tree Removal, Close Leece Ford

2017-2018 Remedial works, Foxdale stream opposite Applegarth 2017-2018 Tree removal at Raggatt, Brack-a-Broom, St. Johns, Laurel Bank 2017-2018 Removal of debris at Close Leece culvert and Raggatt 2017-2018 Retaining Wall remedial works, Close Taggart 2017-2018 River clearance, adjacent to Patrick Road and Tynwald Mills

2018-2019 Emergency works to stabilise bank on Foxdale Stream 2018-2019 River retaining wall repair and Reinstatement, Elm House, St Johns 2018-2019 Tynwald Mills clearance works 2018-2019 Ford repairs, Shenharra 2018-2019 Removal of trees at Glenfaba Bridge, Patrick Road and Raggatt 2018-2019 Removal of debris, Ballagarrow 2018-2019 Vegetation clearance at Byways and Bluebell Cottage on Foxdale Stream 2018-2019 Foxdale Stream Remedial Works including Fence & Wall 2018-2019 Weir remedial works, Close Leece 2018-2019 Completion of stone river wall at Elm House, St. Johns

2019-2020 Repairs to Close Leece Weir 2019-2020 Removal of fallen tree at weir downstream of Glenfaba Bridge 2019-2020 Stob & mesh bank repairs and reinstatement on Foxdale Stream, Elm House 2019-2020 Tree & vegetation clearance at Ballaleece and Old Ford House, St Johns 2019-2020 River clearance, Raggatt 2019-2020 Tree planting and landscaping at Tynwald Mills car park

2020-2021 Tree maintenance and vegetation clearance, River Neb 2020-2021 Tree debris removal from Raggatt and Mill Road area 2020-2021 Emergency removal of trees in Neb, Glen Mooar Loop

Sulby, including Glen Auldyn Catchment

2015-2016 Grass trimming of flood embankment at the Millrace Estate, Sulby 2015-2016 Construction of flood wall 2015-2016 Auldyn River Gauge installation 2015-2016 Emergency work to reseal joints on flood wall 2015-2016 Removal of trees on Sulby River up to Ballakillighan 2015-2016 Repair to river wall at Riverside House, Ramsey

2016-2017 Rock armour to stabilise river banks, Killane 2016-2017 Japanese Knotweed treatment, Glen Auldyn 2016-2017 Repair of damaged river wall, Riverside House, Ramsey 2016-2017 Remedial bridge works the Rydings, Glen Auldyn 2016-2017 River bank repair, Carrick Park, Sulby River 2016-2017 River bank repair, Glas Choile, Auldyn river 2016-2017 Gravel removal Sulby Bridge 2016-2017 Gravel removal, White bridge, Ramsey 2016-2017 Underpinning road bridge, The Falls 2016-2017 Sealing of flood wall joints Carrick Park and Millrace Estates, Sulby 2016-2017 Repair works to stob and mesh wall, Sulby Claddaghs

______1826 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

2017-2018 Emergency works repair to stob and mesh bank, Sulby Claddaghs 2017-2018 Treatment of Japanese Knotweed, Glen Auldyn 2017-2018 River clearance, Sulby Claddagh and Sulby Bridge to Kerrowmoar Croft 2017-2018 Removal of fallen Sycamore at Glen Mooar, Sulby 2017-2018 Removal of old wire gabion basket from Sulby Bridge 2017-2018 Remedial work at Kerrowmoar Weir 2017-2018 Removal of large oak at Sulby Claddaghs 2017-2018 Sulby Gravel Removal 2017-2018 Rock armour placement for Kerrowmoar Weir 2017-2018 Maintenance at Carrick Park, Sulby

2018-2019 Sulby Glen Mooar Weir Repairs 2018-2019 Tree removal, Bayr ny Harea and Old Mill, Sulby Glen 2018-2019 Removal of sycamore from Glen Auldyn river 2018-2019 Clearance of outfall at Sulby attenuation pond 2018-2019 Tree limbing & clearance, Ballakillingan 2018-2019 Clearance of debris at Garey ford and tree/debris removal at The Garey 2018-2019 Ballagarrow Bridge & access ramp, Glen Auldyn 2018-2019 Stob & Mesh repair and creation of access ramp and reinstatement, Crofton 2018-2019 Treatment of Japanese knotweed, Glen Auldyn 2018-2019 Kerrowmoar Weir reconstruction

2019-2020 Removal of debris and large tree in Glen Auldyn River 2019-2020 Gravel Removal, Sulby Bridge and Whitebridge 2019-2020 Rock armour, Kerrowmoar Weir 2019-2020 Tree clearance, Carrick Park and Glen Mooar Cottage 2019-2020 River clearance and Tree Removal, Ballakillingan 2019-2020 Emergency tree removal (Milntown Farm)

2020-2021 Vegetation trimming, Carrick Park (Allandale Farm, Kella Mill, Millrace) 2020-2021 Removal of fallen trees & debris, Sulby River 2020-2021 Garey Ford Tree Clearance 2020-2021 West View, Mill Race Flood embankment Tree removal 2020-2021 Scour repairs, Glen Auldyn 2020-2021 Kerrowmoar Weir Replacement 2020-2021 Wall repair & pointing, River House, Ramsey

OFFICE OF FAIR TRADING

51. Manx Gas customer charges recovery – OFT protection of gas consumers since 1st January 2021

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading:

What responsibility the Office of Fair Trading has for the repayment by Manx Gas of under recovery customer charges taken since the termination of the 2015 Gas Agreement; and if he will make a statement about the Office of Fair Trading’s role in protecting gas consumers since 1st January 2021?

The Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading (Mr Perkins): Since the termination of the 2015 2775 Agreement for the Regulation of the Gas Market in the Isle of Man (‘the Agreement’), the Office of Fair Trading (‘the OFT’) has no formal responsibility for the repayment or recovery by Manx Gas of the regulatory adjustment. Notwithstanding this, the OFT has engaged with Manx Gas with regard to the issue of its continued recovery of the regulatory adjustment since the Agreement was terminated and subsequently the adjustment has ceased and is to be refunded.

______1827 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

2780 Together with its wider remit as champion for consumers, the OFT still has a role to play with regard to surviving clauses of the Agreement. In addition, Part 2 (Anti-Competitive Practices and Prices) of the Fair Trading Act 1996 (‘the Act’) provides control measures for persons engaging in anti-competitive practices and prices of major public concern. Clause 16 of the Agreement specified that the following clauses survive the termination of the 2785 Agreement for whatsoever reason: (a) Clause 1 – Definitions and Interpretation; (b) Clause 8 – Change Process Procedure; (c) Clause 10 – Trademarks and Trade Names; (d) Clause 11 – Compliance; 2790 (e) Clause 12 – Confidentiality and Non-Disclosure; (f) Clause 17 – Dispute Resolution; (g) Clause 20 – Notices; (h) Clause 27 – Third Party Rights; and (i) Clause 28 – Governing Law.

2795 Which of the parties to the Agreement would take action for a breach of the surviving clauses in any instance would depend upon the nature of the breach.

ECONOMIC RECOVERY GROUP

52. ERG COVID-19 schemes – Allocations in 2020-21 by sector

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chairman of the Economic Recovery Group:

How much the Group has allocated in the financial year 2020-21 through COVID-19 schemes to (i) agriculture, forestry and fishing, (ii) manufacturing, (iii) construction, (iv) retail distribution, (v) tourist accommodation, and (vi) catering and entertainment sectors; and if he will attribute this allocation by sector according to (a) national income and (b) employment?

The Chairman of the Economic Recovery Group (Mr Cannan): The funding provided for many of the main COVID-19 schemes was not specifically allocated to a sector, instead the amounts included in Table 52A* are based upon which sectors claimed and have been paid amounts. In 2800 some cases some sectors were excluded from claiming against certain schemes, such as financial services from Salary Support or tourist accommodation providers from some of the tranches of the Coronavirus Business Support Scheme. The data here has been presented by the sectors that have claimed support. These schemes are: Salary Support Scheme, Coronavirus Business Support Scheme and the 2805 AP10 Tourism and Travel scheme. The Manx Earnings Replacement Allowance (MERA) is claimed by and paid directly to individuals who were permanently or temporarily made redundant, laid off, or have ceased their self-employed work, rather than claimed by businesses; however it has provided support to workers and the self-employed from a range of sectors. 2810 Similarly, the two loan schemes are available to all sectors and data is not currently available to allocate them to an economic sector.

* https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210420_Q52_Link.pdf

______1828 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

ISLE OF MAN MEATS

53. Hogget pricing policy – Supply to Isle of Man and Liverpool markets

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chairman of Isle of Man Meats:

What the Board’s pricing policy is for hogget; and if he will make a statement about the relative price of its supply this year to Isle of Man butchers and retailers and to the Liverpool market with special reference to who pays the costs of delivery for off-Island exports?

The Chairman of Isle of Man Meats (Mr Baker): Isle of Man Meats’ sales pricing policy is a commercially sensitive matter. Sales prices for hogget, when supply is available, are determined by negotiation between the 2815 company and those of its customers whom may wish to purchase it at that point in time. Prices are market-driven and will be influenced by a range of factors including required volume, packaging and delivery requirements and the quantity of supply available. The relative price of its supply to Isle of Man butchers and retailers and to the Liverpool market will vary. 2820 The costs of delivering products to its customers, whether on or off-Island, are part of the operating costs of Isle of Man Meats.

COMMONWEALTH PARLIAMENTARY ASSOCIATION ISLE OF MAN BRANCH

54. CPA Recommended Benchmarks for Democratic Legislatures – Publication of Isle of Man assessment

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chairman of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Isle of Man Branch:

When and how he will publish the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Recommended Benchmarks for Democratic Legislatures benchmark assessment?

The Chairman of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Isle of Man Branch (The Speaker): The benchmarking panel has concluded its work and reported to the Branch Executive Committee which is due to consider the report at its next meeting on 5th May. It is 2825 hoped the report will be published as soon as possible thereafter.

CHILDREN’S CHAMPION

55. 2019-20 and 2020-21 reports – Publication date

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Children’s Champion:

When he will publish his (a) 2019-20 and (b) 2020-21 reports?

The Children’s Champion (Mr Callister): The report will be laid before Tynwald in July 2021. ______1829 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE

56. Tynwald Auditor General – PAC report on recruitment and appointment

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee:

When the Committee will report on the recruitment and appointment of the Tynwald Auditor General?

The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (The Speaker): Since the Question was submitted, the Committee has reported already on the governance issues relating to this appointment. It therefore has no plans to report further on this matter, having completed its work 2830 on this subject for the time being. The Selection Committee (made up of the Speaker, the Chief Minister and the Vice Chair of the PAC) is continuing to work on the issues which the Question raises, but has as yet no fixed date on which to report.

The Court adjourned at 1.02 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

______1830 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Order of the Day

4. COVID-19 – Statement by the Chief Minister

The President: Fastyr mie, Hon. Members. 2835 Members: Fastyr mie, Mr President.

The President: Please be seated. Hon. Members, we proceed with our Order Paper, with a Statement to be made by the Chief 2840 Minister. Mr Quayle.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you very much, Mr President. We have now successfully completed and exited our third lockdown. We have taken some difficult decisions. As ever, we were guided by the data and what it told us about the prevalence 2845 of the disease in our community. I am very happy to say that thanks to the efforts of the public, and to the many teams of people working across Government, we have reached the stage where there has been no community-based transmission of the virus for 21 days. The number of active cases has fallen to a very low level, and these few new cases we are seeing are related to travel, or are confined to those already isolating. This has given us the 2850 confidence to lift all restrictions once more, and to allow our people and businesses to attempt to carry on with their lives as normal. Mr President, we will be taking a forward look later on, further down the Order Paper, when we consider our draft Exit Strategy. For now, I would like to take a few moments to reflect on the effects of the past couple of months, and the events. It is important to remember how we got to 2855 where we are. In doing so, I would like to repeat once more my gratitude to Manx public for their observance of the rules and restrictions. I would also like to thank everyone on the 111 team, to those who have been rolling out the vaccination programme, and of course, to those working in our health service and indeed to all of our key workers. They have at times had to work under incredible pressure, over long hours, to 2860 ensure that the virus was contained and eradicated from our community once more. Indeed, the vaccination team have of course continued to work very hard in pushing forward with delivering the programme which will protect thousands – indeed, tens of thousands – of people in the future. This has all meant that over the past few weeks we have been able to gradually ease restrictions. It meant that were able to allow people to team up in bubbles. Construction was able 2865 to resume and we allowed gatherings of up to 10 people to take place outside. We allowed a small number of retail outlets to open, with the usual precautions of social distancing and face coverings. And although it was difficult at first, we were able to reopen schools for vulnerable children, for those needing to complete important assessments and for the children of essential workers. This was a gradual and cautious approach. This was a balanced approach. 2870 Some people may have wanted us to go faster. Some may have been concerned that some of these restrictions were lifted too soon. But I believe that with hindsight the balance was right and the restrictions did their job. We removed various measures when it was safe to do so, and kept careful watch to ensure we did not go backwards. That meant that we were able to plot a route out of this latest lockdown and in the end we were able to lift all restrictions from yesterday. 2875 Mr President, so many of us will feel that we have been here before, but I would like to focus for a moment on some of the differences. The first difference is that we are leaving what I hope will be our last lockdown. With the number of people who have been vaccinated steadily rising, it is time for us to acknowledge that we will have to learn to live with this disease in the future.

______1831 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Much is said about the ‘new normal’, and whilst this can be said to be new, it cannot yet be said 2880 to feel normal. But I would encourage everyone to think a little differently now – about the virus, and how we live with it. Adjusting to this new way of thinking will take time, but it is, I am afraid, a fact of our new lives. There is every chance that COVID will return to our Island, and that it will once again spread in our community. That is inevitable, and we all need to be ready for that. The second big difference, though, is that thanks to the vaccines, our future responses to any 2885 new outbreaks are likely to be different. That is why the Council of Ministers is working with Tynwald Members to develop and to clarify our future options. As the proportion of our population which has received the vaccine increases, then our circumstances clearly change. So the way we deal with COVID in the future will be different. The actions we will take in the future will be likely to focus more on offering advice and guidance, as opposed to strict legal 2890 restrictions. This is a shift in emphasis, and there will be a greater stress placed on personal responsibility, as well as responsibility for businesses and organisations. People will be encouraged to think more about what feels right for them. Everyone will need to be aware of, and to maintain, healthy habits. But this is not just handwashing. We would encourage people to think about the World Health Organization’s three Cs. Those are: crowded 2895 spaces, confined spaces, and close contact situations. We need to think much more about personal space; to think about fresh air. There are things we can all do to reduce our exposure to higher risk environments, and encourage more healthy behaviours, and we will be communicating this guidance to our people and to employers and businesses. We hope that in the future we will only need to bring in restrictions if there is a significant 2900 threat of our health services being severely impacted or overwhelmed. But as we vaccinate a higher proportion of the population, the likelihood of this happening diminishes. Mr President, we must also acknowledge and take the time to deal with the consequences of the disease, and the impact the lockdowns and restrictions have had on our people. I know that for many of us, this lockdown has felt different and been very difficult. After more than a year 2905 since the first lockdown began, the restrictions have become more challenging to live with. We must not forget that many people have contracted the virus in this latest outbreak. Some have fallen ill, and some have felt very ill; that is very stressful and worrying. And again, very sadly, we have lost members of our Island community to this disease. There have been costs to mental health and emotional well-being, to relationships, to education, and of course the cost to 2910 livelihoods, prosperity and the wider economy. Our response has always been trying to strike the right balance between the benefits and the impacts of lockdowns and border restrictions. The sacrifices made by everyone in our community have not just protected lives, they have also bought us time. That time has enabled us to vaccinate tens of thousands of people. This is a game changer. The vaccines will work to protect our most 2915 vulnerable from serious disease and death. As we continue the vaccination programme, we will reach a pivot point in this pandemic. This is why we are beginning to move away from thoughts of eliminating the virus to instead mitigating its impact and learning to live with it. We are beginning our journey towards that transition, and we will discuss how we transition to a new policy response to COVID later on at this sitting. 2920 Mr President, I have said before that we want this lockdown to be our last; that this is now a one-way journey. But I want to be clear: Government is not stepping away from its responsibilities and placing them on the shoulders of the public and business. We are still here. We will continue to roll out vaccinations, we will continue to issue guidance and provide information, should there be further cases, which is bound to be the case. Contact tracing and border controls will continue 2925 to be a part of life. The border may look different for some time to come. But just as before, we want to work with people to ensure that we stay as safe as possible. From now on, the personal choices each and every one of us makes, rather than protecting our Manx bubble, erecting border restrictions and imposing lockdowns, will act as our defence against the virus. But we must remember that no vaccine is 100% effective. Some people will still get ill 2930 with COVID and there may unfortunately still be fatalities, as there are with other cruel diseases. ______1832 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

But the vaccination programme will radically alter the impact the virus has on the vast majority of the population’s health and therefore our society. We will of course focus our efforts on giving the best treatment possible to those who are still exposed to its risks. Mr President, although cause for relief and muted celebration, it is important for all of us to 2935 recognise that some people will feel nervous and apprehensive as we exit lockdown. People should do what they feel is right for them and their loved ones. People may wish to maintain social distancing. Some people may continue to wear face coverings. Some businesses may encourage people to continue to work from home, and some people may choose to work from home. All of this is okay, and as a society we must allow it, and indeed encourage it. 2940 We must respect individual choices. By making informed choices and by protecting ourselves, we will undoubtedly protect each other and the community as a whole. We need people to continue to do the right thing. The virus will return, so do please remain vigilant. If you have any COVID-like symptoms, please do not ignore them. Self-isolate right away and contact 111 for advice and to arrange a test. 2945 Thank you, Mr President. I am more than happy to take any questions Members may wish to pose, remembering of course that we will be discussing our Exit Strategy later on.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Robertshaw.

2950 Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. In the light of that comment, Mr President, the Chief Minister’s comment, I would be happy to have him delay the full answer to my question until the later debate on the Exit Strategy. In fact, it was only a few moments ago I became aware that it was actually going to be on an Order Paper. But the essence of the question I would lay before the Chief Minister is how long does he think 2955 it will be before there is clarity around mitigation strategy? If I can support that question by, if you like, describing it as a clipboard questionnaire. If one got a clipboard, went down the road and said to anybody who you met, what is the elimination strategy? They would say, ‘Oh, borders’, and face and space and hands and jabs, and ultimately maybe lockdown. If you then said to them, okay, what does mitigation mean? They would go, 2960 ‘Jabs’, and then there would be probably a bit of a silence. So there is a big job there to get over the issue of what mitigation means, how to condense it into a simple story, and how soon it happens. Because the further now we get away from the last lockdown, the more society will relax and the more, thus, it exposes itself in the future to not being able to react to what you might call a dangerous future mutation, if that actually occurs. 2965 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2970 I thank the Hon. Member. It is a very good point, and we have obviously just been discussing this in the Council of Ministers. We are working hard to come up with a document, like we did in the very early days of the first COVID outbreak, to send out to all houses on the Isle of Man, Mr President, giving that talk to members of the public. The Hon. Member is quite right. Everyone understands what elimination is. Mitigation is not 2975 maybe a word we would use in our normal language on a regular basis, so we need to explain that it is living with it and what we can do to reduce the risks to ourselves, and taking responsibility for ourselves, for our health and our position. That will be something that we will be explaining to the public in the very near future. Thank you. 2980 Mr Robertshaw: And businesses as well, Chief Minister?

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The Chief Minister: Businesses as well, yes.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper. 2985 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to thank the Chief Minister for his Statement and for confirming that we will be discussing the Exit Strategy later on in this sitting. The question I have for him is he mentioned in his remarks that at some point we will reach a 2990 pivot point in the vaccination rollout – I think that is the phrase he used. Is he able to advise us what that pivot point might look like?

The President: Chief Minister.

2995 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Well, there are various stages, I suppose, of that pivot point. The most important one will be when we hit May, when every one of our vulnerable groups will have had at least one injection and then we move on when all of our vulnerable groups will have had the second vaccination. Now, we have given rough dates when we hope that to happen in the document, but it is all based 3000 on getting the vaccines on Island to be able to deliver the vaccinations. So it is ensuring that our people have that two-week protection once they have had the injection. The dates which we thought were much more detailed have sadly slipped slightly due to a reduction in vaccine being delivered to the Island due to problems around the world on the delivery of the vaccine, but the pivot points will be around having key areas of our population 3005 having had the jab and having a fortnight to build up a defence. Thank you.

The President: Mr Speaker.

3010 The Speaker: Thank you. I am grateful to the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers for their engagement about the revised Exit Framework. I am, however, conscious that as yet I am not aware that it has been published and that if we are going to be debating this at this sitting, could the Chief Minister just advise when that will be published to the public and indeed in the hands of Hon. Members? 3015 Mr Callister: Hear, hear.

The President: Chief Minister.

3020 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was led to believe that it had been published to all Members of Tynwald and it will be going for a debate, I presume it will be tomorrow or the following morning when we get around to debating it. But if it has not been, I will ensure that it is sent out to all Members as soon as possible. But it will not be going out to the public, Mr Speaker, until Tynwald has agreed it. So we are having 3025 this document, we are having a debate on the Exit Strategy. Once Tynwald has approved the Exit Strategy, then we can share it with the public. We have obviously had briefings with Members, got their feedback, we had a late briefing yesterday and we have made a number of changes based on the feedback from Members in the briefing yesterday. We wanted to show that we were listening to all Hon. Members of this Court and I will send an email out as soon as possible on the 3030 actual document … Sorry, I thought it had been recently sent to everyone. My apologies.

The President: I am afraid, Chief Minister, I am a bit in the dark here, and I am sure Members are. I am aware, from your Statement, you indicated that there was to be a motion further on ______1834 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

down the Order Paper. Now, at the present time, only one Supplementary Order Paper has been 3035 published, which is in the hands of Members. Now, I understand there is to be another one with a motion on it in relation to what you have just indicated, but we have not seen the text of that, I have not approved that, and of course, Members will have to have it in adequate time to consider it for debate. So I think the sooner that is produced, the better.

3040 The Chief Minister: My apologies. I thought it had been distributed. I signed it at lunchtime and I thought it had been sent to all Members at that time. But it will be very shortly. Thank you.

The President: Thank you. 3045 Mrs Lord Brennan, a question.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I must admit, I have two questions, but I have a point of concern, because this is a massive, significant matter for public interest, and I know that there will be public that are interested in 3050 this exit strategy. But my two questions are what is different now than last summer? Aside from the vaccines, last summer we heard Government say, ‘We are going to step out of people’s lives, and we are going to look for a different approach. We are going to have guidance instead of legislation’, and we ended up in two more lockdowns. So what is different? I would like more confidence that we are going to be more prepared. 3055 Some people could have said that last summer was the time to prepare instead of celebration. So what will be different, because something needs to be, and does the Chief Minister recognise that there is a significant public interest in this exit framework, so although we are at this stage now, it is right that Tynwald Members are debating and voting on this after it has been published, and in particular so businesses and individuals can see it, because that is what they want? 3060 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Thank you. Chief Minister.

3065 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Just for clarification on the Supplementary Order Paper, it was lodged with the Clerk of Tynwald, permission was granted last week, I was told. We have just had a minor amendment to it, but I apologise for the delay, but we did give notice that we were moving this last week.

3070 The President: Well, I do not believe Members have the text of any motion on a Supplementary Order Paper in relation to the Exit Strategy. We have certainly had a discussion yesterday about it but there is no motion to that effect in our hands.

The Chief Minister: No, but I will have that to Hon. Members within the hour. 3075 The President: Yes. And a Supplementary Order Paper with that motion on to Members then becomes a public document and the public are aware of the motion at the same time. There can be no separation, of course, between the two.

3080 The Chief Minister: No, I think, Mr President, when I was speaking about going out to the public, it was only that we would be advising the public of what had been agreed once we had had the debate in Tynwald. It was not that we were not going to let the public see it, what was being proposed in Tynwald, it was just that it has to get Tynwald approval. (The President: Tynwald approval.) That was the point I was trying to make.

______1835 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

3085 The President: Thank you very much. We shall look forward to receiving that, and when it has been received, it will take its place in the Order Paper for debate. Mr Thomas, please.

The Chief Minister: Sorry, Mr President, I had not raised an answer to – 3090 The President: I beg your pardon, Chief Minister. My mistake, Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Thank you. I thank the Hon. Member, Mrs Lord Brennan, for her point. I think the key difference is – it is massive – is the vaccine itself. We had no vaccine a year ago. 3095 We got the vaccine at the beginning of this year, and it is a massive game changer. Also, the treatments are different. There are new drugs out there now, which can rapidly save lives where, sadly, lives were being lost before. With the knowledge of how to treat people who have COVID, lives can be saved and a quicker turnaround in hospital. But the vaccine is the absolute game changer from last summer. I think that is what the Hon. 3100 Member was asking: what has changed since last summer? Well, the simple word is knowledge, but most importantly the vaccine, and now over half the population have had at least one jab.

The President: Mr Thomas.

3105 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. The Chief Minister today has used the phrase ‘personal responsibility’, encouraging people to think more about themselves and other people around them. I want to build on what Mr Robertshaw said in terms of messaging and what Mrs Lord-Brennan said in terms of personal responsibility and stepping out of people’s lives. 3110 So my question is, building on the idea that the Chief Minister and Minister Ashford have been very keen on, seeing two sides to the story, in recent weeks, would the Chief Minister agree with me that it might be helpful to message to say that there are two sides to the story about personal responsibility and another choice was possible back last year in 2020, whereby we encouraged people to take more personal responsibility, rather than using enforcement, particularly fines and 3115 prison? So, basically, it might be helpful to go back in history to help make the message that personal responsibility is so vital. The second question to the Chief Minister is: would the Chief Minister take this as an opportunity to acknowledge the great contribution by Tynwald Members for four or five months now, because it was actually settled Tynwald policy from November 2020 last year, since then it 3120 has been settled policy, to actually have an approach of living with COVID? That was actually approved unanimously by Tynwald in November 2020. So does the Chief Minister want to take this as an opportunity to acknowledge that it has been Tynwald’s settled policy to live with COVID since November 2020?

3125 The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Thank you. I am struggling a little bit with the first element. People taking responsibility for how they deal with it: we have always encouraged, we have always given advice to people, but yes, we did have 3130 to bring in regulations, because we had to bring in a lockdown, because we did not have the tools to fight COVID and protect our most vulnerable. We now have the tools in the form of a vaccine which, subject to no variant coming along, gives massive protection to our people. It does not necessarily stop you getting COVID, but it will reduce your likelihood of getting seriously ill and having to be hospitalised. That is why we can now move 3135 away from regulations and say to people, if you think about how you want to live your life and if

______1836 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

you have an autoimmune-suppressant illness, what would you do to protect yourselves? Would you go into a business or a shop that is badly ventilated and is that a risk you are prepared to take? We will be advising people obviously. If COVID gets into the community, they will get updates, best advice, etc. but it will be down to the individual to make an informed choice. Obviously, if 3140 there is anything that impacts on the safety or the ability for the Department of Health and Social Care to operate, then that will be their decision to make changes in their Department.

The President: Thank you.

5. Tynwald Standing Orders Committee – First Report 2020-21 – Management of Business – Report received and recommendations approved

The Chairman of the Tynwald Standing Orders Committee (Mr Speaker) to move:

That the Tynwald Standing Orders Committee First Report for the Session 2020-2021 – Management of Business [PP No 2020/0211] be received and that its recommendations be approved.

The President: We move on to Item 5, Tynwald Standing Orders Committee. Chairman of the 3145 Committee, Mr Speaker, to move.

The Chairman of the Tynwald Standing Orders Committee (The Speaker): Thank you, Mr President. The Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald has reported on proposed significant changes to 3150 the management of business of Tynwald Court. This Report has been long in preparation and the Committee has consulted chief officers in relation to the practicalities of the new system. We recommend a series of changes to Standing Orders in two principal areas: the notice to Members and the public relating to forthcoming business; and the treatment of statutory documents that come up for debate. In addition, there are some smaller modifications of the rules 3155 which we put forward covering Written Questions and reordering of business so that substantial business is taken earlier in the sitting. We recognise that these changes will require considerable reorganisation of procedures and that the introduction of the changes will be delayed until after the General Election. In that connection, I refer Hon. Members to the Memorandum of Dissent at Annex 3 of the Report, which 3160 Mr Thomas has included; he comments on this aspect of the Report. He also registers doubt about the Committee’s views in relation to subordinate legislation. I am sure that he will make his views known during the debate. I turn first to the idea of a register of business, which was indeed proposed by Mr Thomas, as he says in his Memorandum of Dissent. 3165 Recommendation 1 sets out the plan for a rolling register of business for the Chamber. The Committee recommends that a rolling register on the Tynwald website be instituted on which papers to be laid and motions with related documents could be placed for future sittings. The Register would be in two parts: part one would be for papers, motions and related documents for future sittings of Tynwald; and part two would be for Written Questions to Departments and 3170 others. The purpose of this register is to allow Members more time to examine the matters placed before them and the supporting documents. I think that all Members will understand that the time within which we must consider complex policy issues and subordinate legislation is too short. This proposal is a recognition of that fact. As policy becomes more far reaching, and the attendant ______1837 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

3175 legislation more complex and voluminous, we all need to have more time than before to read and discuss matters put before us for decision. The two weeks’ notice period is now completely out of date and does not allow the quality of scrutiny that the public expects. Recommendation 2 defines the status of papers lodged for privilege purposes and is a technical provision. 3180 Recommendation 3 makes it clear that the early publication of Papers is desirable, in order to allow Members the maximum possible time for consideration. It should be the exception that papers or motions be included on the Order Paper without first having been lodged in the register. Items for debate should ideally have been published on the register at least six weeks before they are due to be considered in Tynwald; this is especially important for Statutory Documents which 3185 form part of the law. It is hoped that this will revolutionise the way in which Members are able to scrutinise Papers and, where appropriate, seek research assistance or ask questions informally of the Department. Turning to Recommendation 4, the register will not be exclusively for Government business, although most matters will be in that category. One significant change is that Members would be 3190 able to put amendments to motions on the register of business and therefore have their proposals open for public discussion well in advance of debate in Tynwald. We have proposed that Members may indicate support for amendments by putting their names on the register, although this would be a voluntary indication of support, of course. It imitates the provision in other parliaments. We therefore recommend that business shall not be placed on the Order Paper unless it has 3195 first been placed on the register of business, without the permission of the President and they may not be taken without the consent of Tynwald Court. We also recommend that any amendment that relates to a motion on the register of business shall be placed immediately after that motion on the register of business if the Member submitting the amendment wishes. We accept Members want their register updates more or less frequently and we look to deliver 3200 this flexibility as the system is developed. Turning to Recommendation 4A, Members’ names on amendments. Where a Member has put an amendment to a motion on the register of business, Members would be permitted to add their names to the mover’s in support of that amendment. Turning now to Questions, the Committee discussions in relation to management of business 3205 also covered the treatment of Questions. As a result, we propose a change in the treatment of questions and Recommendation 5 deals with this. We recommend that the arrangements for dealing with Questions from Members to Departments and Offices should be amended by treating Oral and Written Questions as separate exercises: (a) All Oral Questions would be published in the Question Paper relating to a sitting, 3210 and all Written Questions would be published on the register of business until they are answered; (b) Written Questions could be submitted at any time during the year, but only in Tynwald – there would no longer be Written Questions in the Branches as they would be unnecessary; (c) The Answers to Written Questions would be published within two weeks after the Clerk of Tynwald has formally sent them to the answering Department, Board or Office, unless the President allows 3215 a delay to the reply. The current arrangements for Written Questions in August and September will be replaced by this rolling programme of Written Questions. The time limit for reply in August and September would be longer in order to cope with absences of staff in Departments. Answers to Written Questions, along with the relevant Question, would be published separately in Hansard in a rolling list that would no longer notionally be connected to a sitting in 3220 the Chamber. We therefore recommend changes to Standing Orders as set out in Recommendation 5. Recommendation 5A recommends a review of the Questions system. After 12 months, the Standing Orders Committee would be instructed to carry out a review of the system for Questions in the light of these changes and to report with recommendations. 3225 Recommendation 5B changes the rules relating to grouping Questions to make answering Questions on a particular topic easier. ______1838 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Recommendation 6 changes the deadline for submitting Questions from five o’clock on the Monday of the week before a sitting to noon on the same day, which would hopefully expedite the Order Paper. 3230 I now turn to the treatment of subordinate legislation, which builds on the introduction of the register. The past year has shown Members that subordinate legislation needs careful examination and that a better system of debate and amendment needs to be provided for. This was clear to the Committee before the COVID pandemic, but experience during that time has underlined the need for reform. 3235 Recommendation 7 defines the proper use of subordinate legislation. It expressly states that the normal procedure using primary legislation for important areas of law making should not be set aside in favour of the use of subordinate legislation for such matters without very good reason. The system of examining legislation in the traditional way using primary legislation provides both Branches with the ability to examine matters in principle. It allows detailed amendments and 3240 gives legislation the time and effort that it deserves. It permits evidence on legislative proposals where necessary – whether by way of a Select Committee or the Committee of the Whole House – to inform discussion of the Bills and amendments. The Committee of the Whole House is an innovation that has proved its worth. Recommendation 8 notes that for matters of great importance or significant complexity, the 3245 current system of examination of subordinate legislation is completely insufficient. The institution of a register of business should result in the normal practice being that all subordinate legislation would be lodged in preliminary form of a proposed text at the earliest opportunity and would not formally be laid and debated until Members have had sufficient time to read and digest the legislative proposals and amend the preliminary text. 3250 Recommendation 8A establishes a procedure whereby if no fewer than eight Members indicate either by way of a motion on the register or by standing in the Chamber that they wish to refer the text of a piece of subordinate legislation to the Branches, then the matter should stand referred to the Branches for debate and vote. This would not apply to items that have already been through the Branches. 3255 Recommendation 8B allows urgent matters to proceed to Tynwald notwithstanding the request for a reference to the Branches. In those circumstances, we recommend that it is possible to allow the matter to proceed, if necessary on a Supplementary Order Paper; this would require the consent of the President and the agreement of Tynwald. This agreement should be voted on as a combined vote otherwise the matter could be delayed inappropriately. 3260 Recommendation 9 places non-contentious subordinate legislation at the end of the Order Paper so that matters which are likely to attract substantial debate will take precedence. The precedence of business on the Order Paper should reflect whether it is likely to attract considerable debate or not. Non-contentious legislation would be legislation that has not been referred to the Branches or otherwise noted as requiring debate, by way of a notice on the 3265 Register, for example – referred to in the Report as a ‘flag’. Recommendation 11 mandates the President to bring into force changes to Standing Orders proposed in this Report, if agreed to, by announcing in Tynwald that they have effect. When we wrote the Report, our aim was for the new system to be in place after the next General Election. This was a reflection of the revolutionary changes proposed in this Report, which will require 3270 careful thought about implementation. COVID has meant that the introduction before then would be impossible. If agreed to, these proposals will be an important step forward in modernising the procedures in Tynwald to allow greater discussion and thought about significant policy areas and legislative issues. The proposals will require a great deal of co-operation and willingness to make them work 3275 well; the working practices of Members and Tynwald itself will evolve in a new direction. There is one significant gap in what the Report has covered – financial procedure. The treatment of the Budget was a step too far for the Committee to deal with in this Report. The Committee does not propose any changes to the Budget procedure in this Report, not because ______1839 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

there is general contentment with that procedure, I would say, but because it was a bridge too 3280 far! Discussion of that complex topic is for another day. Mr President, I commend the Report to the Court.

The President: Mr Hooper, Hon. Member for Ramsey.

3285 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: Thank you. Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. 3290 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. First of all, can I ask that we will be voting on each of these Recommendations individually? I was a bit surprised by the way it was presented on the Order Paper. Is that agreed, Mr President? 3295 The President: Is that agreed, Hon. Members?

Members: Agreed.

3300 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I am supportive of a number of the Committee’s recommendations. Specifically, I think the electronic rolling register is a good thing. I think using technology to provide greater transparency and accessibility is the right way to go. So I very much welcome that as a positive step forward. However, there are a number of aspects of the Report which cause me significant concern, 3305 Mr President. I recall it was Harold Wilson who said a week is a long time in politics, Hon. Members. How long is six weeks in politics, Hon. Members? I would suggest it is far too long for submission of important motions. We live in a 24/7 world. Things are rapidly changing around us and we are actually increasing the length of time before things can be brought to this Court to have an important debate? That is a retrograde step, Hon. Members, and I would urge you 3310 absolutely do not support that. We need to inject more pace into these proceedings, not lengthen them, in my view. Also I am not comfortable with reducing the length of time that people have to submit Questions from 5 p.m. to noon. I think already there is a danger, because we are living in such a fast-moving world, that Questions having to be submitted significantly advanced can quickly be 3315 out of date by the time that they are answered. So lengthening the period that they have to be submitted in advance feels to me, again, the wrong direction of travel, Mr President. Other aspects: I am not sure about the referring subordinate legislation to the Branches. It feels to me that that potentially is overly complicated and I think also it could cause additional delay. It feels a bit like a sledgehammer-and-nut situation and I would be interested to understand 3320 the examples where this has caused significant problems. Because, yes, there have been some instances of flawed legislation which has been corrected. What has been the real impact of that, would be my question; and actually, how does that compare to the disadvantage of everything taking so much longer? And some of the subordinate legislation needs to happen quickly. So if that is delayed unnecessarily there clearly is a negative outcome there. 3325 We live in a world which is not perfect and there are pros and cons in every system. So for me I am looking for a real explanation about why the pros of this system will outweigh the cons, which I can see; and also why is this a sledgehammer to crack a nut, to be honest, because that is immediately what I think about when I look at that proposal. I note that one Member of the Committee, Mr Thomas, stated in his addendum to the report 3330 that: (a) he felt it was potentially cumbersome and bureaucratic; and (b) of doubtful incremental ______1840 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

value. Those things resonated with me when I read those comments, so well done, Mr Thomas, for putting those down in writing, in my view. Some Members may consider this as an interesting academic exercise and looking to seek perfection, and I get that. This is an interesting thing but actually we are dealing in the real world 3335 and speed matters, Hon. Members. I would suggest we do not need more bureaucracy and, personally, I find the slow pace of a number of things in this Hon. Court very frustrating and out of step with what happens in the real external world outside of this Hon. Court. I would submit, Hon. Members, we do need to see change but that change needs to enable this Court to be more nimble and more responsive, not slower. It is a step backwards to slow 3340 things down and make them more complicated, so I would urge Members to reject these retrograde Recommendations, in my view. I also take this opportunity to ask the Chairman of the Committee whether the Committee considered amending our operating hours during its deliberations. (The Speaker: It didn’t.) As many hon. colleagues will be aware, I have previously raised the fact that we have the 3345 longest parliamentary summer recess in the British Isles and have recommended that we return in September in each normal year. I would be interested if that has been debated at all by the Committee, because again that would enable this Hon. Court to be more responsive, more nimble. Clearly we have all taken part in regular additional sittings during this emergency period, but that is, I would suggest, an emergency situation and as we look to return to normal is this not the 3350 right time – whatever normal might be – to look at whether it is right that this Hon. Court continues to have the longest parliamentary summer recess of any Assembly or Parliament in the British Isles. Is that something, Hon. Members, that you are proud of? It is certainly something that I am not proud of. I do not think that reflects well on this Hon. Court or any of its Members. I understand that this dates from the time when the majority of Members were farmers or 3355 wealthy landowners, or both, and they went back to their land to help bring in the crops over the summer period. Now, with the exception of a couple of Hon. Members, I do not believe this is still the case in this Hon. Court. I believe it is time for a real review of those hours. I think we should also look at our starting and finishing hours. We maintain very old fashioned hours, starting at half past 10 in the morning. I do not know any other business meetings that start 3360 regularly at half past 10 and sit till eight or nine in the evening –

The President: Hon. Member, would you stick to actually what is in the Report, (A Member: Hear, hear.) what we are supposed to be debating, and not other aspects of parliamentary practice procedure? 3365 Mr Shimmins: I am happy to do that, Mr President, but this is the only report I have seen for some time from this Committee – (The President: Well –) (The Speaker: The motion –) so I think it is right to ask about the omissions. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I am about to finish, Mr President. I would just perhaps ask Hon. Members to consider that the make-up of this Court is changing. 3370 There are fewer grey-haired men – like me. (A Member: Hooray!) (A Member: Agreed.) (Laughter) But that is good and if we want more diversity it would be sensible to have more family-friendly hours. So I would like the Committee Chairman to respond and tell me why the Committee has not considered more modern, real-world hours for this Hon. Court, because we are operating in a changing world and the pace of change is accelerating, Hon. Members. This Report is simply out 3375 of step with those trends. We should not be slowing things down. However well-intentioned these proposals are, that is what they do. I would submit that we are heading in the wrong direction and rather than accept this Report, we should be looking for more pace, more pragmatism, less procrastination. That is what is needed if this Hon. Court is to support the Island at this time. Thank you, Mr President. 3380 A Member: Hear, hear.

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The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan.

Mr Cannan: Thank you, Mr President. 3385 I rise actually in support of many of the comments, or some of the comments, that have just been made by my good friend from the Treasury and, indeed, perhaps also to support the view expressed by my good friend next to me, the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas. Indeed, if the master of bureaucracy himself is concerned about having a bureaucracy (Laughter) then I, too, am seriously concerned about the ramifications that might be implied from this 3390 Report. But I will try and be concise, Mr President. I do share some of the views, as I said, of my hon. friend who has just spoken, because I feel that what is happening here is we are trying to modernise the process without modernising the infrastructure that surrounds it. Having looked at this, this feels to me like trying to follow either the Westminster site type of model – but I point out to Hon. Members in doing so the Westminster 3395 model is a parliament that meets daily, regularly, has a variety of transactions and processes throughout that day; there is quite a good structure attached to it in terms of the way that things are managed. For me, this feels that we are potentially stepping backwards. I just want to try to deal with the points that have been raised. I am actually happy to support the creation of the register, and I am happy to take a view that parliamentary business should go 3400 on it. Although I do find the recommendation about six weeks to be highly confusing because the Report does not really make it clear to me. It kind of implies that somebody can submit a piece of legislation within hours of the deadline as long as it goes onto the register before it appears on the Order Paper. But it seems to me to be: what is the point? It does not really provide a guidance, it appears to get itself very frustrated or appears that 3405 Tynwald should be extremely frustrated if the Government has not put a piece of statutory legislation or order within six weeks but then kind of says, ‘But actually, well, it won’t really matter as long as it is a few minutes before the deadline. We can’t really do anything about it.’ I find that a very strange way, because I think for me that is just going to create frustration amongst Members, who of course will then stand up and say, ‘Oh, we hadn’t had enough time to look at 3410 this piece of legislation,’ but actually people had acted perfectly legitimately in submitting it without a formal process or procedure attached to that. So I am confused. I find that issue about this six weeks being maximum possible times and minimum possible times is actually not really helping the process. Great news if you get it in on time but, as my hon. friend Mr Shimmins points out, it is a fast-moving world we are living in. 3415 Things are being brought forward under often quite a lot of pressure. People are working to deadlines. Things happen around us that mean that legislation or orders etc. have to be brought forward at quite short notice and ideally within the Order Paper most of the time the Government works quite well within that basis and, yes, occasionally on supplementaries. The other issue where I am getting very concerned is this business of complex legislation, but 3420 I have not heard the core examples of what the Speaker is actually talking about. It is not really expressed in the Report. It just seems to me to be a very subjective view about something that is complex and something that is not complex. But of course again, Hon. Members, our job is not here to obstruct the process of Government. Also I have not actually heard a Member really come into this Hon. Court after the Order Paper 3425 has been published for basically two weeks before the sitting to complain voraciously that they have not had a chance to study what are generally speaking fairly straightforward pieces of legislation. Okay, yes, occasionally something a bit more complex, something might need a little bit more explanation, but I am not actually aware or have not really heard a convincing argument put forward that this should be brought forward in this way. 3430 Frankly, Hon. Members, it is quite clear to me that Tynwald has the ability to throw these things out and vis-à-vis obtain exactly the same process, but Government can act more quickly and more efficiently to sort out the problem, I would suggest, by direct liaison, rather than having to go through this process of going through the Keys, then through Legislative Council, then backwards ______1842 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

and forwards, amendments. Of course, that is then itself going to lead to questions about primary 3435 legislation and in the end, are we actually just going to slow down and create more bureaucracy, as my good friend Mr Thomas has pointed out? So I remain unconvinced because I do not believe the case has been properly made for that, but more importantly, it might work in Westminster where you can meet the following day and get on with it, but it is very difficult whilst we retain our current infrastructure. 3440 Moving then to these issues of these Questions, so basically Written Questions – and I raised this point when I spoke to the Speaker at lunchtime – but Written Questions and the Order Paper have traditionally been a clear reference point for our constituents who follow politics closely and want to know what is going on. Many of my constituents will get that Order Paper, will see and go through all the Questions and will have a clear and transparent understanding of what has been 3445 presented to parliament. On the basis that Questions just get submitted at any point, my assertion at the moment again is that actually you are going to have a loss of transparency in terms of a focus for the public. It may suit you as a parliamentarian when you get an update through on your email every time an amendment comes in or out or a new Question gets submitted, but really members of the public, do they want their inboxes filled with Questions every time a 3450 parliamentary Question pops up? Whilst we meet on a regular basis, once a month, it is a nice consolidated process but if we were meeting daily or even three times a week or once a week … Maybe Tynwald should meet once a week. My hon. friend, Mr Shimmins, really does raise some relevant points about the way you are going about your business if you are going to be in a modern, a fast-moving, fast-paced 3455 environment, rather than this laborious six weeks before something has got to be submitted and then Written Questions, you do not see those any more on a consolidated basis but they come through at any point in time. I am not convinced. I have not seen anything yet that is convincing me that this is going to lead to greater transparency, except I am willing to concede at the moment that creation of some sort 3460 of register could work. The other point that I wanted to raise, Mr President, is again I am happy about the Standing Orders Committee carrying out reviews. Fair enough, some amendments to the Oral Questions, but again, the subordinate legislation for me, I have not heard anything that has convinced me that there is an absolute need. In fact, I would say subordinate legislation is a minority need and, 3465 indeed, Tynwald has the power to be able to control that in any case by rejecting the order and having it debated at a later date. So I am all for pushing forward, Mr President, but I would suggest to Hon. Members – in fact, we have seen this argument when we had the debate about Questions last week – that there is actually a need to seriously consider the whole infrastructure around this, not just Tynwald 3470 working on a monthly basis. I think that actually, if we met more regularly, for example, and I do not necessarily have a strong view on that, maybe some of these problems could be solved in a much quicker and much more agile way. If we met when we do meet and we had, for example, policy debates and legislation associated with particular Departments we could bring real focus perhaps to the weight of both. So the Minister is answering Questions and to the specifics of that 3475 debate, whether that be on an update basis or whether that be on a formal annual report type basis. So there is quite a lot to do, Mr President. I will give some support to this Report through the register, but I have some serious concerns about the way we are going and I am struggling to support the change in the Questions and I am still struggling to see how the subordinate legislation 3480 route is actually going to improve things for our constituents. That is the bottom line, Mr President: this is not just about us, this is about our constituents, doing the best for them, allowing Government to function and of course holding it properly to account. But I believe that it needs to be conducted in such a way that our constituents can properly understand and follow what is happening at the moment with proceedings and have a 3485 proper reference point for both Written and Oral Questions. ______1843 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

My final point is, again, perhaps I might be being a bit subjective here but actually I think the Hon. Member’s point about press at lunchtime and Members not working to deadlines for press benefit is actually potentially also a negative. I think, again, from a public reporting perspective, the production of an Order Paper with all the Questions consolidated actually allows the press to 3490 properly report and decide and determine from those Questions what is indeed a priority for them when it comes to reporting. Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson. 3495 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Committee for producing this Report, but I must admit I found it overly complicated and I had to keep on referring to, ‘What was the original problem this was trying to correct?’ and that is where I found a disconnect between the two. 3500 I would like to reiterate my support for the previous two speakers in terms of we need an agile parliament, but also one that is quite visible about how the mechanisms work, and whilst I can see the benefit of having a register, the way that Written Questions are dealt with seems to be pushing it to one side, that they would not even appear on the Order Paper any more, and we would have to keep on referring our constituents, ‘Oh, go and have a look on the website because 3505 that is the only place you can find out when Questions are going to be.’ I can see the advantages of that during the summer when we are not sitting, absolutely, but not when we are sitting. Often you will read the Answer to a Written Question and that will stimulate more debate the following week for Oral Questions, and if you disconnect those you lose that ability to go into more detail. 3510 In terms of the subordinate legislation, again, I found this whole matter really quite confusing. As somebody who has been sitting here for only a couple of years, this confused me even more. Sometimes we do have very complicated bits of legislation and obviously the drafters and members of the Department are often in the Gallery, we see them coming in to answer any particular questions. I do not know how you would classify non-contentious subordinate 3515 legislation, because sometimes while we are going through a sitting, during a debate we suddenly realise, ‘Hang on a minute, somebody has come up with a really good point and actually, no, I am not happy with that. I thought I was but …’ That is the power of debate and the fact that we have got 24 different sets of eyes here and the Legislative Council to scrutinise this, sometimes one Member will see something that everyone else passes over. 3520 So I am concerned about this idea that, ‘Oh well, nobody is bothered about it so we will put it at the end while everyone is dozing off and thinking about getting home.’ I find that a little bit patronising really to the importance of some of this legislation that is coming through. We are dealing with complexities of how we organise parliament, the complexities of how we do things. Is this making it simpler? To me, the answer is no, I think it is making it more complex and more 3525 opaque in some ways. So whilst I am quite happy to vote in favour of some of the recommendations – a rolling register, those sorts of things, absolutely – I completely agree with the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, I would like to vote on this separately, the different recommendations, because there are some that I really do not think I can support because I cannot see how they have been 3530 thought out to actually improve the system we have. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member for Middle, the Chief Minister.

3535 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I just want to major on Recommendation 3. I think it is my biggest cause for concern, although I do have some questions and I concur with my colleague, the Member for Middle, and also the ______1844 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Member for Ayre and Garff, Mr Cannan, as well as Mr Shimmins. (Laughter) Michael! Michael, and Ayre, sorry! It is a big constituency! (Laughter) 3540 Obviously, we had a presentation advising us that officers have responded and met, and I looked into this and supported. The officers wrote back on 18th October 2019! I got asked by the Member for Onchan why we were taking so long to take a document into Tynwald, and I said, ‘Well, actually, we are two months behind where we said we would be because of COVID.’ This was going on 18 months ago and well before, so it has probably taken three years to get where 3545 we are. So Members can take that on board for what they want. But Recommendation 3, I was led to believe that the chief officers had agreed that, but what they actually said, and I have the letter in front of me, is that, ‘The principle of putting documents as soon as possible was a good thing.’ I do not think anyone would disagree with the principle of getting a document ... We are living in a fast world when things have to move really quickly 3550 sometimes. They then go on to say in their response to the Committee, or to Mr Speaker, ‘From a practical perspective, the six-week minimum time required prior to publication may mean that a piece of Government business may need to start its approval some three months prior to the date.’ It is not often I agree with my good friend from Douglas Central, Mr Thomas, but I am afraid he nailed 3555 that one to be fair to him. I am really surprised that we have got Recommendation 3 in. Moving on to Recommendation 8A – I am saying this a little bit tongue-in-cheek – if we are going from having two-thirds majority of people extending to simple majority we have now got eight people deciding: a minority dictating to the House what is going to happen and potentially delay a piece of legislation going forward. So I am just wondering, why eight? Where did the 3560 Committee come up with eight people to move something on 8A? I agree with Recommendation 1, I am more than happy to support that, but I am glad that we are voting on this on a Recommendation at a time because there are elements that I do not agree with. I am very concerned, as you all know, about the Question Times over the summer holidays. I think the right to have Questions is important, but equally it is trying to ensure that some people 3565 can get a break and if we are bombarded constantly … I have to sign-off on these Questions to make sure that they are right; if all that we are going to be doing is checking Question after Question throughout the entire summer holiday it just worries me, that is all. It is the practicalities of it. In principle some of this Report is good, but you then look down and you burrow down, ‘Well, how is it going to work?’ and I have to say I am disappointed with the 3570 Report, but that will do. Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson.

3575 Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. I was a fairly recent joiner of this particular Committee, but I do not propose to talk about all the Recommendations, but this issue that has been flagged so far about secondary legislation is something that has deeply concerned me from joining this Hon. Court, and to say we do not have problems I think really does miss a trick. I think we all recognise that the GDPR example was not 3580 edifying. We have subsequently seen huge Brexit-related legislation published last minute and expected to be churned, with mistakes which were acknowledged and had to be brought back. We have moved amendments in this Hon. Court to address defects in the emergency powers legislation. I am not criticising our drafters or officers. I know how hard they work and I know how difficult it is to get this right, but let us not pretend we do not have something that we could 3585 improve on here. I am interested in the Chief Minister’s comment about the length of time it takes to process Government business. Frankly, we could start there, would be my view. I have never known a more cumbersome process to actually get something to the point where it can come forward to debate. ______1845 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

3590 So Hon. Members, there is huge scope to be efficient and effective and so on. What also matters is getting it right, because we are talking about law. We are not just talking about a bit of paper or a bit of policy that, ‘Whoops, if it is a bit wrong it does not matter because we do not mean anything by it, we are not going to enforce it, we do not care.’ We are talking about legislation. 3595 I do not know about anyone else but certainly I was struck through the debates on the Climate Change Bill in Legislative Council how much care and concern there is about the secondary detail that will flow under that Bill. We have power in that legislation to apply UK Acts of Parliament as suit us to the Isle of Man. Publishing that two weeks out and expecting us all to have a quick go and come in here and either accept it or reject it, that to my mind is not a professional, competent 3600 way to ensure that we have decent legislation here. (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) The devil is in the detail, Hon. Members, particularly secondary legislation. I was not present in the House of Keys for the Landlord Registration Bill debates, but I am thinking there were one or two questions about the detail of the regulations that will come forward under that legislation in due course. So Hon. Members, I think we do have an issue to address. Let us not pretend this is not a thing 3605 we need to look at and get better at. This Report and its Recommendation is putting forward a constructive suggestion that once secondary legislation – particularly complex, detailed regulation that affects the lives of our citizens – is ready to roll, it absolutely should be published, because that gives us time to look at it properly. More importantly, it gives the public, interested parties, businesses, all the people whose lives we affect by this detail, (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) it gives 3610 them time to look at it properly. Surely it is better to front-load our effort and do it right to begin with, even if that means amending it before it lands on the Order Paper than to have the situation we do see where we come along and go, ‘Well, that is not right,’ and then it has to be withdrawn and then there is a delay, Hon. Members, there is a delay of a month before it comes back to another sitting of this 3615 Hon. Court. So I think we do have an issue to be fixed. I support the proposal to try and fix it. I am sure it will not be the last word in how we can evolve and improve our business, but we do have to make some changes, Hon. Members. I would suggest it is better to front-load this effort, look at how we can be more efficient in the Government’s side of the procedure, get things out in the open and 3620 allow some constructive feedback and comment, recognising that things will not always be right. But it is better to get them out in a public way and allow that constructive engagement and feedback, and then lay something on the Order Paper that has had decent input from all those concerned. This is particularly an issue for secondary legislation and I would commend that we do take action to try and improve the present position. 3625 Thank you, Mr President.

The Speaker: Hear, hear.

The President: The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper. 3630 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I just thought I would try to correct some misunderstandings that have been put out already. The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, talked about six weeks for important motions, and then he talks about reducing the timetabling of tabled Questions by a significant amount. It 3635 is five hours by my reckoning. It is just a deadline; a deadline is a deadline whenever it is. I myself tend to work on Questions over the weekend, irrespective of the fact that the deadline is 5 p.m. on the Monday.

Mr Shimmins: It is still slower.

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3640 Mr Hooper: There is no actual impact on your working timetable, there is no impact on the Question being tabled. I am not aware that we are proposing changing the one week for Oral Questions in this Recommendation either. So actually, all of those comments are just totally wrong. This has come out a few times actually. I think Mr Cannan, the Hon. Member for Ayre and 3645 Michael, mentioned this as well: the press response. I was not aware that Tynwald was acting to the whims of our 24-hour news cycle. I was under the impression we were here to represent the best interests of our constituents, not to make it easy for the press to pick up on salient points that may be important. There were 56 Questions in this sitting today; which of those will get press time? That is up to the press to decide actually. There may be 30 or 40 that are of vital national 3650 importance, there are only so many column inches they are going to fill. How many of those are going to get missed out? Will it be Questions around the price of hoggets, perhaps? Not important to many but definitely important to some. Who decides? So this idea that somehow we are here to serve the interests of the news media is quite entertaining, I think. I also want to challenge this idea that everything will take longer. I am not sure that it will 3655 actually. I think the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson, hit the nail right on the head. If the Chief Officer’s view is indeed that it would take more than three months for them to get something ready for a six-week deadline then actually more than half of that time, or at least half of that time rather, is Government holding things up, not the Tynwald process. I think that maybe Government needs to really consider how it plays its role in bringing things to this Hon. Court. 3660 The idea of the recess and why this was not considered: I think the reason this was not considered, at least from my perspective, is because Tynwald overwhelmingly rejected reviewing the recess dates when a motion was brought. However much you may agree or disagree with the proposition, I do not really think it is the job of a Committee of Tynwald to do things Tynwald has specifically said, ‘No, thanks. We do not want to do this.’ 3665 But the one thing that I think is worth talking about a little bit is this idea of secondary legislation and the subordinate scrutiny. Members were asking for a concrete example of where this has caused problems. I will give you one, Hon. Members. Back in 2019, this Hon. Court debated and approved housing allocation policy – this was a general needs housing allocation policy. It was, in fact, debated twice because the first time it was 3670 brought to this Hon. Court the Department of Infrastructure had, quite innocently, I believe, identified a child as being somebody over the age of 18 years, which was quite frankly ridiculous. The Department acknowledged that this was an error, along with a few others, and withdrew the motion and brought it back again at the next sitting. So there was a four-week delay already as part of that process. But the reason that I think that piece of legislation needed far more 3675 scrutiny was because of the impact that it has had in the last two years since it was approved. The legislation removed all elements of flexibility around general needs housing allocation, so it introduced very strict criteria on who was and who was not eligible to be on a waiting list in the two years since this policy has been introduced. I have had countless instances of constituents who previously may have been eligible to be considered at least for some sort of dispensation, 3680 whereas now that does not exist. The Department of Infrastructure has told constituents they have no powers to exercise this discretion because they have removed it themselves by implementing this policy. An area that has had real impact is on this idea of having to be resident in an area for a set period of time. So the law is very clear, you must be resident in an area for three years. Now, a 3685 family, divorce happens, a single mother left at home with a young family, suddenly being told, ‘Actually you are not eligible. You were only eligible to be in this property because of your partner. You have now broken up. Well, you cannot stay here. Sorry, no discretion.’ That is a problem. I raised all these issues during that debate and I did not convince enough Members of Tynwald to vote down that disastrous piece of secondary legislation, and yet here we are. No matter how 3690 many times I raise these issues with Government, trying to force the Department to look again at

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this policy, I find it very unlikely that they will. I know that because it has been two years and they still have not. So this idea that Tynwald rejecting something is the ultimate arbiter – maybe it is, but it is definitely not the only effective one. Something like 99% of secondary legislation that gets laid in 3695 front of this Hon. Court gets approved. So are we saying that actually only 1% of things that are laid contain errors like this that will significantly impact people on this Island? No, we are not. I think the numbers are significantly higher than that, not through any particular fault, it is just the way it is. We are all human, everyone makes mistakes, everyone does not necessarily consider all the angles. 3700 To be honest, Dr Allinson referenced that there is always that one Member that identifies concerns with a piece of law. I am that Member! (Laughter) That is pretty much what I have been doing for the last five years and I can tell you that, from my experience of this, we do need a better process for dealing with subordinate legislation. I do not think anyone can argue with that question. Whether this is the right solution or not, that is a different question and I do not know 3705 if it is, but I am willing to give it a go. I am willing to say, let’s try it and see how it pans out, and if it does not work then the Report recommends that in 12 months we look at it again and say, ‘Did this work? Was it good? Was it bad? Did it have a negative impact? Did it slow things down? Did it speed things up?’ Actually, let’s try something. Let’s not be afraid to give it a go and see what happens. 3710 In respect of applying other laws, this is another area where I think it is incumbent on us to actually pay some closer attention to. There is an Item on today’s Order Paper which I have no particular issue with, but it is a really good example of this. It is applying EU Regulations around food standards to the Island. Now, the Order itself is just a mass of references to paragraphs and subparagraphs, and it does not mean anything, in and of itself, but in order to understand it you 3715 have to dig out the relevant EU legislation – Articles 1(36) and FIC Articles 2 and 3 of the Commission Implementing Regulation No. 2018/775. Great. Where is it? How big is it? Do I understand it? Do my constituents understand it? Who knows? And actually this is the kind of thing that possibly does need a bit more scrutiny. It might be absolutely fine. It might be that lifting this piece of EU law and applying it directly to 3720 the Isle of Man is the right thing to do. It might be that it is not, but I can assure you, Hon. Members, none of us really know the answer to that question based on what is in this document. You need to do a lot more work to dig under this, which will often take a lot more time than the two weeks that we have. That is the fundamental point and issue here. If Hon. Members genuinely think that two weeks 3725 is enough for you and members of the public to understand all the stuff that comes through this Hon. Court and to provide constructive criticism – because that is the key thing here. I do not want Members of this Hon. Court, backbenchers, just standing up and lobbing grenades for the sake of it. Criticism has to be constructive, it has to be positive, it has to be helpful. If it is not then there is no point in doing it. 3730 I think the timescales that we are left with almost inevitably lead to an element of negativity, an element of, ‘Well, it is hard to be constructive because I do not have enough information, I do not have enough time to consult with people.’ And as I have already highlighted, sometimes you cannot change it anyway, all you can do is raise the concerns, jump up and down a little bit and hope that somebody listens, hope that Government takes those views on board. 3735 So whilst I appreciate the comments that have been made around some of these provisions, I think that my underlying position on this is we need to try something different because the current system is not working well. So I would encourage Hon. Members to give this a go, give it a try, see if it works, and if it does not work, come back and fix it. I do agree actually that this has taken far too long to come to fruition. There are a number of 3740 reasons for that, but I think that is the thing that would be incumbent on the next Standing Orders Committee to say, ‘Actually, if we are going to commit to a review after 12 months, it has to be a review after 12 months and it has to report quickly,’ because we cannot implement a system that ______1848 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

maybe does not work and then we end up stumbling through the entirety of the next administration with a system that is broken. So if we are going to approve this today, which I 3745 would absolutely encourage Hon. Members to do, we need to be very clear that it is going to be incumbent on us to absolutely keep on top of whoever the next Standing Orders Committee is to make sure that they absolutely deliver on this commitment. Thank you very much, Mr President.

3750 The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe.

Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. I stand before you as a member of the Tynwald Standing Orders Committee and I am proud to be associated with this Report and its Recommendations, because I believe they will enhance the 3755 scrutiny already carried out by both Branches. I am not going to go through all the Recommendations which, if supported, will all work together in order to enhance scrutiny, but in general what I think the Recommendations would give us, if supported, is thinking time. If it becomes the norm that papers, motions and related information to be laid before Tynwald 3760 go onto a rolling register of business, Members would have maximum opportunity – that is, six weeks, to consider, discuss, and propose amendments in advance, if desired. In particular, I believe the Recommendations around subordinate legislation will have far-reaching and positive effects. Currently, Members do not always have enough time to get to grips with longer, more complex pieces of secondary legislation, and cannot make any amendments to subordinate 3765 legislation, even though, both in Tynwald and in Westminster, subordinate legislation is increasingly being used for more complex matters which will have long-lasting effects on people’s lives. In many cases, the current system around short and simple subordinate legislation works perfectly well; however, in cases where subordinate legislation is lengthy and complex, 3770 Recommendation 8A would allow the legislation to be lodged on the rolling register, read and digested by Members and, if necessary, examined by Policy Review Committees. I know that some Hon. Members regard this as potentially slowing down … things – (Laughter)

The Speaker: Oh, the irony! 3775 Mrs Sharpe: However in this case, I have to say, I think we need to be mindful of the old adage: more haste, less speed. And this point was so eloquently made by my colleague in Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson. Because if Members feel they have not had sufficient time to examine an important piece of subordinate legislation, if we feel we are being backed into a corner, if 3780 legislation has holes in it, if it has errors – and as she points out, this is the law! There is no room for errors – the legislation will be voted down anyway. So why not try to get the legislation – I am sorry, I am trying to scroll on this clunky laptop; it keeps going backwards and forwards. Why not try to get the legislation shaped into something everyone feels comfortable with in 3785 the first place before it comes to Tynwald? Because rarely is anything useful gained by making changes on the fly on the floor of Tynwald or by having to reject subordinate legislation and wait another month for it to be amended and to return for yet another sitting. This recommendation would actually allow us to address issues in advance and this enhanced scrutiny – constructive criticism, as Mr Hooper says – will allow us to advance more smoothly. And 3790 this, Mr President, is the overall concept behind all the Recommendations contained in the Report: to give enough time for Members to think; make their opinions known in advance, if they wish; for relevant public bodies to comment in advance; and for Government to make amendments in advance, if necessary.

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Mr President, I do not think that the positive effects of these Recommendations can be under- 3795 estimated. I know that we on the Committee have been living and breathing these proposals for the past two years. We have had time to think about these concepts (Interjection) and to realise their benefits. Mr President, I think it is important to point out that the Recommendations do not in any way prevent Members from exercising their normal rights to bring amendments on the floor of 3800 Tynwald; for Government to bring emergency legislation before Tynwald at late notice, if necessary; for the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper, to still spot errors on the floor of Tynwald – although I suspect he would not, he would see them in advance anyway, he would have plenty of time – and for normal Order Papers to be published in advance of a sitting. What they do is to carve out time for Members to consider legislation and motions in advance; 3805 for Written Questions to be submitted on a rolling basis, instead of coming to Government all at once; and for any potential amendments to be flagged and dealt with in advance. I would urge Members to support the Recommendations because at the end of the day they will make all our lives easier. Thank you, Mr President. 3810 The Speaker: Hear, hear.

The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.

3815 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. As Mr Speaker and other Hon. Members have kindly noticed and mentioned, I have a memorandum of dissent to some analysis on a couple of the Recommendations on the subordinate legislation part of the Tynwald Standing Orders Committee, my memorandum being an Annex 3, dated 30th November 2020. 3820 As Hon. Members can imagine, the discussion in the Committee was full, argument was dogged, paragraphs and arguments were reworked over and over. The experience was both potentially significant – I agree with my colleagues speaking – and also certainly lively. I thank the Clerk for his patience and all Committee members for their participation, Ministers, MHK backbenchers and MLCs. 3825 I also thank personally the Chief Secretary and the chief officers for engaging with the Clerks since 2018 in respect of the practical operation of what is proposed to us. I actually want to agree with what the Chief Minister just said, because the senior officers were neither supporting it nor were they even commenting on the merits, just like we should expect from our public servants. ‘Agreeing the principle’ is senior civil servant speak for just that point. No, they were just 3830 commenting on the practical operations of the project, which is what we would expect from our senior civil servants about our Standing Orders in this independent parliament. Also, I sent most of the analysis in the report and the recommendations derived from that analysis. For instance, a proposed approach to Written Questions which will change their perception, I agree, and use even by some Members and the timetable change for Oral Questions 3835 is sensible. Moreover, I fully support the proposed two-part rolling register and the early publication of Papers for all of the reasons identified. In fact, I think it has been mentioned it was me who first proposed to the Standing Orders Committee, with Mr Hooper’s support, the concept of the rolling register and its particular use for early publication of secondary legislation, which is what this is 3840 all about. That was in the summer of 2018, taking the opportunity when an issue came up with the Tynwald Commissioner for Administration Report’s publication, covered in paragraph 17 of the Report. I also welcome the ability of Members to put amendments to motions on the register and the relegation of secondary legislation in some cases down the Order Paper. Thus I will vote myself: 3845 for Recommendations 1 to 6, inclusively; for Recommendation 8B which allows for subordinate ______1850 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

legislation exceptions to deal with the issues raised by Treasury colleagues, particularly but other people around this Hon. Court; for Recommendation 9, the Order Paper order; and for Recommendations 10 and 11, as far as they cover the implementation of everything, despite my recorded reservations for some of the Recommendations that I have just laid out. That is 3850 specifically again, 7, 8 and 8A; I will vote against those. That is because of the treatment of subordinate or secondary legislation in them and, more generally, which has been picked up today, my disappointment, which actually triggered me to write the memorandum of dissent, which was the two-year delay back in November last year, an implementation of the rolling register, which could already, if it had been implemented earlier, 3855 have been bringing the benefit to things like the housing allocation policy that Mr Hooper quite correctly identified. We could have had this rolling register to help us in that sort of thing. Also the proposed continuing delay, given the proposal that the register and Standing Order amendments will only be in place after the General Election. That is less relevant now because we are six months on. But I do think the 12-month review is absolutely vital, and I do agree in principle 3860 that we need to experiment with this, because we have clearly got a problem with secondary legislation that we need to deal with. The delay arose, in my humble opinion, because of the extended discussion of the proposed approach for both Branches to have the possibility to consider and scrutinise separately draft subordinate legislation. The Committee got into that issue. Regrettably, from my point of view, 3865 I called it an issue. It is a rabbit hole. It is a much bigger issue and what we are really after is the best way to consider secondary legislation, throwing light on it and actually giving us time and stakeholders and experts out there. So, as has been stated by Mr Shimmins, I regard, as reported in my memo, potential consideration of subordinate legislation in the Branches to be potentially cumbersome and 3870 bureaucratic, which is the basis of my rejection of Recommendation 8A and of doubtful incremental value, given the enhanced quality, which will actually come and be brought about by the extra scrutiny arising from the introduction of the proposed register itself and the early publication regime, wherever possible. The sun shone on the drafts is what I believe will be instrumental in enhancing the secondary legislation, whether it be of Brexit, emerging powers 3875 defects, DoI legislation and all sorts of legislation that is complicated. I had a small issue, but I am less concerned about that now because the text, because of when it was written back in 2018, only really ever mentions GDPR, but I welcome the acknowledgement today that this is a wider issue and we never actually reviewed the GDPR evidence. It could turn out to be in two years’ time when we get equivalent status that we took exactly the right approach 3880 to GDPR. That is something that I report in the memorandum. I would encourage review, if it is only in 12 months’ time, starting now, of the whole process of subordinate legislation, taking into account that example and all the others enumerated by Mrs Poole-Wilson and Mr Hooper, particularly. I draw reference to all Hon. Members, as Mr Speaker did, to the section in the Report about the Budget sitting Order Paper in paragraph 9 actually, where it says that this actual 3885 treatment of subordinate legislation is a complex issue and deserves special inquiry; we really do need to have that special inquiry. This could take the form of revisiting the Select and Standing Committee report findings and recommendations of the last two decades, in my humble view, and that is what I have said in my memo of dissent, particularly those considered in 2006 and 2011. So this is not a new issue, it has 3890 been there for two decades. My first contact with the House of Keys and Tynwald was in about 2003-04 when I was invited as an external expert in secondary legislation to join an investigation into how we handled Select Committees. It was accepted – probably the only time Peter Karran ever got anything through the Tynwald Administration, but I actually joined as an external expert in to review back in 2003-04. 3895 So I remark particularly on section 15, about pages 33 and 34, of the Select Committee on Scrutiny and the Functions of the Standing Committee on Expenditure and Public Accounts Report

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of June 2006, about the option of our indirectly-elected Legislative Council, providing scrutiny of subordinate legislation, which started at 15.1:

15.1 We considered the suggestion that an indirectly-elected Legislative Council would have responsibility for the scrutiny of Secondary and EU legislation, and Council Members would not be eligible for government posts. … It is envisaged that the Legislative Council could undertake this commitment, on a selective basis, on scheduled sitting days, and report to Tynwald as it saw fit.” … 15.2 One of the potential benefits would be that [Legislative] Council Members would specialise in and build up expertise in scrutiny, and if they did not have Government responsibilities, they would have more time to devote to scrutiny. 15.3 Members who put their names forward for election to Council would know what their parliamentary responsibilities would entail, and Keys Members would have the opportunity to vote for the nominees who they considered to be best suited to a scrutiny role. However it may be that very few people would wish to solely undertake scrutiny and give up any chance of serving in the Government. If that were the case, there may be problems in filling vacancies in the Council. 15.4 However, this revised role for Legislative Council may attract well-qualified or experienced persons from outside Tynwald to stand for election. Persons who formerly held high or senior office or had professional qualifications which would make them ideal candidates to undertake a scrutiny role may not wish to put themselves up for popular election, or undertake government responsibilities, but may consider putting themselves forward for election by the House of Keys.

We have got excellent Members of the Legislative Council – excellent in scrutiny, as we have 3900 downstairs as well, but it is a very specialist function, especially when you come to EU and some secondary legislation, as Mr Hooper has very eloquently portrayed. So I close with two major points. The first is that, as I see it, if this two-Branch approach goes through, I believe it will be another step along the road to a reformed Tynwald with Legislative Council continuing its evolution to a Committee of Members advised by specialists who have ever 3905 more focus on detailed scrutiny of legislation, whether it contributes to the delivery of the policy intentions behind that secondary legislation. Number two, subordinate legislation is made under the authority of primary enabling legislation by Ministers and other bodies. That is the point of it really. Secondary legislation is made under primary legislation. If we do not want to give bodies the power to make secondary 3910 legislation do not create the primary legislation carefully in the Keys and the Legislative Council in the way that gives them that responsibility. The implication of what I have just said then is that great care is needed when primary legislation is put in place, which creates enabling powers for subordinate legislation to be made by a particular entity for a particular purpose under that particular law. 3915 So with that, Hon. Members, I thank the Committee for its work. I look forward to the review, whatever happens. I do agree that we have got a major challenge to address and this is good progress for it. We have got lots of templates in our two decades of recent history, and I do think we can now make good progress to actually give proper attention to secondary legislation, especially that made in the area of Treasury, in the area of the EU, in the area of things like data 3920 protection and technical aspects. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Harmer.

3925 Mr Harmer: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you everyone who has been taking part in this debate. I think it is a very important debate and it needs unwrapping and unpacking, and I do not apologise at all for the length of time it has taken because it is right to take a long time on something that is so fundamental. It is also right that this is done for the next Election; that was 3930 always very clear in the Committees. So we need to consider these things carefully. But I want to make a fundamental point here. There is a fundamental part of this process that the Government or whoever is bringing the motion can use the two weeks and all they need is a

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majority. Quite frankly, if you cannot get a majority for your motion the motion is going to fail, and that is the fundamental point that has been missing in all of this: that you can get your 3935 legislation in the existing way. But, Hon. Members and the Members of Legislative Council, to say, like the Member of Council said, there is not a problem; there absolutely is a problem. Sometimes legislation has got through, secondary legislation that has had to be unwound later on. Sometimes it has been on the books for many years and had to be redone. So to say there is not an issue … I would completely concur 3940 with the comment less haste, more speed. Sometimes rushing at things, doing everything in two weeks, having acres and acres of paperwork to get through, and to have any meaningful proper scrutiny, is absolutely fundamentally ridiculous. I always get intrigued when people say they want agility. Absolutely. This gives us a more agile response, because basically it allows us to flex to what we need. So, for example, if you want to 3945 carry on with the existing two weeks, absolutely you can; if you want to take the lower route – and I know Members will know sometimes motions have got through that absolutely maybe should not have got through in their current form, but it is a yes or a no; fundamentally, that is it. You need the ability to actually drill down and get to it. When people are worried about the eight Members and the two Chambers, one of the issues 3950 is that that would only ever happen where the Government would support, because remember if it did not you would go back to the two-week procedure. But what it is saying is actually on something as complex, isn’t it a good thing that we actually debate and discuss things and deliver? It is about a balance and it is about that flexibility. So rather than being less flexible or less modern, this is very modern, this is very flexible. I think it will produce things quicker but, more importantly, 3955 better and absolutely right. So the point that was made in terms of this is law, this is absolutely the key thing. So I think this will give us more tools in the box and as a parliamentarian for my constituents, I think this is really important that we change this, rather than keep going with the old way. All we have had is the argument of sticking with the old way. I totally disagree with this. I want to deliver better for 3960 my constituents as a parliamentarian. I believe these changes absolutely will do. Just on the mention of the rolling register for Written Questions, an issue may come at any time, it may come up on a Friday, it may come on a Thursday. Why are we limiting it to this sort of old ratchet where all the Questions come in like a sausage machine? That may not be completely irrelevant. I think the point was made by the Hon. Member for Middle, ‘Well, we 3965 should not have a deadline.’ Well, that is the whole point with the Written Question. If you need to get that information, you can get that information and then the media pick it up on the relevance and importance of that issue. The issue around the deadline, which is a minor point really, was again the concept of more haste, less speed. Why rush everything before five o’clock through the Tynwald Clerks’ Office to 3970 get a poor Question out when you can just have a few hours to get things better? So the whole process of this is to give us, to give you, more tools to scrutinise, more tools to deliver on what you want to do. So actually it is a pretty radical piece of recommendations. I recommend that we take this bold step after the Election and it will improve things, and you have still got exactly what you can do now. You can still say, ‘If I want this and I have got the 3975 Government and my Members on board we do it in two weeks.’ So nothing changes in that respect, so I think that point has been lost. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Ashford. 3980 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I am going to start with one very basic phrase, which is secondary legislation is exceptionally important. Hopefully, that is not a controversial statement to make. In fact, it is becoming now just as important, if not more important in some cases, than primary legislation. The purpose of ______1853 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

3985 secondary legislation has been evolving not just here in the Island but across the world in whichever legislative you look at. It has gone from being a very old-fashioned, sort of mundane tool for once a year on raising charges here or there that you cannot prescribe into primary legislation, to more and more primary legislation trying to be flexible and allowing you to bring other measures forward to update measures in a fast-paced world. 3990 Of course, the way to do that, because primary legislation itself is quite clunky, is through secondary legislation. So you only have to look at the volume of secondary legislation now to, I would say, even for some Hon. Members who have been in this Court a lot longer than me, five or 10 years ago, the volume has increased and the complexity of that secondary legislation has increased as well. So I do not think that was a controversial thing to say. 3995 At the start of this debate, Mr President, I have got to be honest, I thought I had slipped into a parallel Tynwald for a while, because in my short time here, four-and-a-bit years, I have sat through numerous debates where people have said, ‘Scrutiny, scrutiny, we need more scrutiny’; and then we are getting, ‘Well, we actually need to do things rapidly.’ We need to ensure that it is right, not rushed, Mr President, from my point of view, and that goes for secondary legislation. 4000 In terms of Written Questions, I think the rolling register is very sensible and actually it will alleviate the pressure that we have seen at the moment, particularly in summer periods – and I have seen that within DHSC where people have come under pressure to meet the deadlines and do it. It is much more of a rolling register, and I actually think that goes some way to resolving the issue we have with summer Questions, particularly in some Departments at the moment. 4005 A couple of Hon. Members, Mr President, asked about an example of where there has been issues with secondary legislation. I am going to take us back to the good old days, Mr President, of my very first sitting in this Hon. Court and also it was the first sitting of 11 other Hon. Members who are here. Back in the days when I had a bit more hair on the back and I did not look like I had been hit by a 10-tonne truck! (Laughter) (A Member: No!) 4010 But if we go back to that very first sitting a piece of secondary legislation that came forward that new Hon. Members had only really seen about a week before was the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016 (Application) Order. I know that is exciting-sounding as it is, but it was very important because it was the Order that dealt with legal highs and making it illegal for them to be dealt. It was then the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Anderson, who moved it, and I raised a point 4015 around the fact that part of the Order – again new Members had not long seen this Order – referred to dealing outside a school for enhanced penalties. I said, ‘But what about University College Isle of Man?’ because it does not meet the Education Act’s definition of a school. So you could have someone, for instance, in my constituency, which the College is in, in Douglas North, dealing outside Willaston School who gets an enhanced penalty, but someone who is dealing 4020 outside University College who would not get an enhanced penalty. So it was said it would be taken away and looked at, but we all duly voted through the Order so it went on to the statute books. There was then a letter that came forward to Hon. Members, a message which is also on the Hansard, a few days later to say that actually it turned out I had been correct and that Treasury 4025 would work with Chambers to amend the legislation accordingly and thanked me for highlighting the issue. The amendment duly did come forward, but when did it come forward, Mr President? It came forward in the January 2017 Tynwald – 13 weeks after we had voted through that original Order! So for 13 weeks we had an Order on the books where, if someone had been dealing outside Willaston School they would have got an enhanced penalty, if they had gone up the road to Isle 4030 of Man University College they would not have. The six weeks does not seem so bad now, does it, Mr President? I think that is one of the key points. So there are all things in here we can pick up on. As a member of the Committee, one of the reasons it took a while to come forward and Mr Shimmins shouted ‘slow’, I say ‘detailed consideration’. One man’s detailed consideration is another man’s slow. But one of the reasons it 4035 took so long is we all had different views on the Committee as well. We had to come to a broad consensus as to which way we were going to go forward, and this is it. ______1854 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

There are still mechanisms in there to allow people to use the current timescales, to be able to bring things forward if they are urgent. We are not shutting it down and saying there is no reason for urgency. There will always be reasons for urgency because we are moving forward in a fast- 4040 paced world and we have got to have that flexibility. But what we have also got to do is have due process and due scrutiny. In the past, if we go back 10-15 years, maybe that was not quite as important with secondary legislation because of the nature of secondary legislation. The Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson, has laid out very well in great detail some of the huge pieces of secondary 4045 legislation that actually have a fundamental impact on our society, so I think it is that we should be recognising secondary legislation is just as important as the primary. And in some cases, it is actually more important than the primary Act because of what more flows from it. So I think that what the Committee has actually come up with is reasonable, Mr President. I quite agree with those who spoke and said that if it does come in it needs to be reviewed. To be 4050 quite frank, I think we should be constantly reviewing the processes and procedures that we operate to in this hon. place. That includes working hours, which the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, has raised because different parliaments operate differently. I know Jersey and Guernsey, for instance, start their sittings at 9.30, but Malta and Gibraltar work in the afternoons, they do afternoon sittings. If I get it the right way round, I think Malta starts at 5 p.m. when they 4055 have their sittings and Gibraltar starts at three in the afternoon. So different parliaments do different things. We have to do what is right for us. Time has moved on and all of our policies and procedures should be brought forward, but I think the rolling register is an innovation. It is the right way forward and I would urge Hon. Members to give it a go. If it does not work then the power will be in the Members of the 4060 next Hon. Court’s hands to unwind that if they do not like it. But if we are not going to try these new innovative things then we are going to be stuck with the system we have now.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

4065 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I agree with a great deal of what Mrs Poole-Wilson has said about secondary legislation. When I joined the Court it was something that struck me as being of great concern, particularly to do with Brexit and particularly because it was an all-or-nothing deal. Effectively, we had to put these significant pieces of legislation through very quickly, and that was it really, wasn’t it. So in a way 4070 it really was pretty much a rubber-stamp process to a degree, because actually the need to get something through and the lack of ability to amend it meant that we had to put things through; and I think that in itself struck me as an issue, because many of the things that we were bringing in because of Brexit were the very things that the UK were wanting to get rid of, but here we were bringing them in. And did we all feel entirely comfortable, perhaps, with all the different 4075 regulations and requirements we were, for example, putting on business in that regard? So I have shared that concern since I came into Tynwald and I think definitely we need some better process around it. But I am not convinced that referring it to the Branches for secondary legislation is the right way to go, and I am just going to explain my thinking in terms of how I think that would actually 4080 work in practice. Before I do that I will say that to me it seems like what the three, possibly four, things that are needed in terms of secondary legislation, which have caused … and when you say subordinate legislation or secondary legislation it almost does a disservice to the weight of that, because it is all law, it is all important and it is all something that relates to policy. So I would just ask you to hold that thought in your minds as well. 4085 So for me the things that need to happen with secondary legislation that would be beneficial are that, ideally, yes, I do think we need to see it sooner because the devil is in the detail, as has been said. I think that it would be helpful, if it is going to be amended, that it would be amended in Tynwald because I feel like where we are voting on a piece of legislation and where it is under ______1855 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

true consideration you should deal with that all in the same Branch, not separated out and then 4090 bring it back to Tynwald. The reason for that is that if something gets referred to the Branches – this is how I will get to how I think it will work in practice – it might get referred for being looked at by the Branches, it will then go to the House of Keys and maybe some bits will possibly get picked up. Who knows whether or not that will be in the context of a fuller policy understanding? Because if we are totally 4095 honest, and I know that certainly from my point of view, at the end of the process in Legislative Council, I do not personally feel like we are totally settled with full clarity on what the full policy is when it comes to our side of things, if I can put it like that. And that will continue to be an issue for some potentially contentious pieces of secondary legislation, should they get referred to the Branches. It will then get voted on in Keys. Maybe or maybe not, amendments might be successful, 4100 depending on the departmental set-up at the time and Members etc., and then it will go to Legislative Council. What are Legislative Council going to do with it then? Because if we are going to have to have that regard to the possible policy and you are assuming that the Government and the Department wants to get that through, you have still got the influence of the departmental Members in there. 4105 So just set that aside because that in itself is a contentious issue and it is probably not coming forward with a policy paper or whatever, because we are not good at that either, it comes then to Tynwald and it has been amended – or not. But by that point, anybody in this Court can turn round and say, ‘This has been looked at. It has been scrutinised for weeks and weeks. It has been with the Branches for weeks.’ Then it will become a rubber-stamping exercise again because it 4110 would have been through that process and it would be like, ‘Okay, it is an all-or-nothing deal’. So that gets me on to the third point. So see it sooner, amend it; if it should be amended, it should happen in Tynwald, we have started doing that already; thirdly, there will be some things that we think, yes, Government needs this for now, but it should be temporary and that is where the sunset clause comes in. But I think that should sit with Tynwald, and I think that is where that 4115 should stay, not having been potentially won or lost or bargained over in the Branches. So I do think we need a better process. I would add a fourth thing to it though, because I think that if in Tynwald or before, maybe on the register, the possibility should exist perhaps, in my view… because let’s face it, legislation is not to everybody’s taste. I did EU studies in Law at university and let me tell you, I was not totally enamoured with looking at all the EU legislation 4120 when it came through. Maybe a little bit, Mr Speaker. (Interjection by the Speaker) It is not everybody’s cup of tea, right? So perhaps then there should be this nurturing of a specialism where actually at some point in that process, you say, ‘Okay, well, this is going to be an issue. It needs a deep look. It has got broader context,’ then refer it to some kind of pre-legislative scrutiny committee and have that committee report then to inform all of Tynwald if there are any issues, 4125 any things that need to be picked up. So I think it does need to be a better process but I just do not think we have hit on the right one, but I think it comes from the right recognition of thinking that it is not ideal how we deal with it at all. And of course a report could pick up on any key policy bits which … talk about housing regs, that was an important bit. Finally, there is a role that Departments, the Ministers and officers can play in this, if they 4130 realised that actually there was the potential for something to have a sunset clause in, be amended in Tynwald or whatever, maybe then Ministers and Departments would make sure that the political Members, particularly, it does not matter if they are Keys or LegCo, but the Members in that Department certainly definitely on every occasion had advance sight of those regulations so that they can sense check them before Tynwald, and have a proper good look at them. Not just 4135 the case of Members seeing them on the Order Paper – because that was happening, certainly in my short time and experience in a Department. Because then at the very least, if they do not spot something they can bat for the team and bring it home, which is kind of what happens anyway. So I agree with the sentiment. I do not think we have hit on the right process, because just honestly in my heart of hearts I cannot see it working out in practice. I cannot. I am sorry, I am 4140 just unsure about that one. ______1856 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Committee for everything that they have done. Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake. 4145 Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. I see benefits here. I do. I see benefits in transparency and benefits for the public. I see the public being able to look at this rolling register with time and, as Mrs Barber said at lunchtime actually, it might work with technology, so people will be able to sort things out a lot easier. So I 4150 can see lots of benefits there. I also think that Recommendation 3, the early publication of papers, that six weeks is a great benefit. I think that really will then give people the opportunity to, as Mrs Poole-Wilson said, scrutinise it a lot better, give you the opportunity to make considered responses. I think that extra time will be well worth it, not just for us, but also for the public. 4155 I agree with Mr Hooper, actually. He said about ‘You’re trying it’, and I do believe test and review. That is what kaizen is all about. It is all about trying something, testing it and putting the better quality forward. So I am very supportive of that. So I do find it very easy to accept all these recommendations and, as Mr Hooper says, give it a go. 4160 Thank you very much, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.

Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. 4165 I think my sentiments on this are quite clear now, having listened to this very helpful debate. I think the Standing Orders Committee has come forward with a detailed package of proposals with some innovation, and I certainly welcome that. I have a little bit of sympathy for the Committee. I think their timing is probably a little unfortunate, given the lengthy debate only last week around Questions, and again, potentially, if Mrs Corlett is back in time, in this particular 4170 Hon. Court, in this sitting. Criticism that they have not dealt with some other issues, that this is not a complete process, that it has taken too long. I do not hear any defensiveness against that. I think that those comments have been made and the Committee would perhaps share those. But I am also not sure some of the examples were the most helpful. So Brexit, for example, was a particular set of circumstances, and GDPR was a particular set of circumstances. I am 4175 actually more taken by the examples given by my hon. friend from Douglas North, Mr Ashford, and my hon. friend from Ramsey, Mr Hooper, even though he is referring to my own Department in that, because they are both right. Secondary legislation, for me, it was seen as somehow less important, it goes through less of a process. But yet, actually, it is fundamentally important and arguably a healthy balance has more secondary legislation, because it is more flexible and easier 4180 to amend. Some of the primary legislation changes, the number of years that they take to come forward, it does not pass the sense test, whereas secondary gives you that flexibility, gives you that adaptability and that ability to react. I do agree with the comments of Mr Shimmins and my fellow Member from Ayre and Michael about that. We need that ability to adapt. But I stand back from 4185 all this debate, consider what we already have, and ask myself three questions. Is our existing process perfect? The answer is very clearly no, in my mind. I ask myself, could it be better? The answer, to me, is very clearly, yes, it potentially could. And more fundamentally, if we were designing a process now for a new parliament starting next month, would we design the process that we currently have? The answer is absolutely not. 4190 So having asked myself those questions, I then say: will this package of measures take us forward? The honest answer is, I do not know. None of us know. We will only know if we try it. We have to be prepared to try things, we have to be prepared to fail and not to point the finger ______1857 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

at each other and say, ‘You got that wrong.’ The only way you create a high-performing culture, in any organisation, with continuous improvement, is to be prepared to try things, to learn lessons 4195 and to build from those. So I think we want a continuous improvement culture. We need to continue to build and improve the parliament of the Isle of Man. Some of the things that are in front of us today are very detailed. We have had some fine minds working together as a team and they have come up with an agreed set of recommendations here. So for me, I am going to back that recommendation. I do not know if it is going to work as 4200 envisaged, but we will find out and we will know in maybe 12 months or so whether it works. I would look for the Chairman of the Committee to commit the Committee – I know it may be a different constitution Committee, but as best he can – to say we will come back –

The Speaker: It is in the motion. 4205 Mr Baker: – in 12 months. It is only in Recommendation 5A as I could see in terms of the Questions element. (The Speaker: Okay.) I could not see it in the other elements, and that was my slight problem with it. But fundamentally, we have to try things, we have to move forward. If there is that commitment to review the whole thing, which I think, looking at the body language from 4210 Members of the Committee, there probably is, I will be happy to support it. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Maska.

4215 Mrs Maska: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Committee for obviously the long hours that they put into bringing forward this Report, which is very innovative in its approach. It has made me think back to when I joined the Isle of Man Government as an officer. I will not say what date that was, but I was much younger, (Laughter) and I actually was astonished when I learnt, or my educated in-house learning revealed to me, that secondary legislation you either got 4220 there or you did not. I thought, well, where is the sense in that? So the opportunity to craft secondary legislation together, rather than it get to us and it is almost like the Grand National: you have got this giant Becher’s Brook, or whatever you call it, and you either get over it or you do not. I think, to make really good legislation, we all need time to consider, in a measured way, and 4225 understand and be confident that what is before us and what we come to debate is something that we have had time to understand. I go back to the role of officers again. When putting together particularly secondary legislation and knowing it is either going to get there or it is not, I am afraid, I think what happens sometimes is that everything is put in the one pot because they might not get another chance at it. You end up with secondary legislation that looks like a Christmas tree, 4230 covered in all sorts of decorative baubles that really do not belong there. Just looking at my notes … I also think that the product of proper scrutiny gives us a much better piece of legislation in the end, and it is a responsible way, as outlined in the Report – I am not going to go into detail; it is the principle I am looking at – I think we have a responsibility to leave to the next administration, to say we have not sat on this and done nothing. This is 4235 something, as has been referred to, we do need to try; to give it a go. Just in terms of, hopefully, if this gets through, and we have the rolling register, which I think is a really good idea, it needs to be clear and navigable, not just for us as Members, but as we discussed at the briefing – and I thank the Committee for bringing that briefing in the brief lunch hour we had – that our Island community needs to know where they go to find out where we are 4240 at, a little bit like our Outlook diaries. There is a blue line that goes across your diary to say, ‘This is where I am at’ and I would like to be able to go in and see what has been put in there, what has been registered and see the timeline that is coming forward. So I do welcome the Report and I thank the Committee for their Recommendations. I will be supporting it. ______1858 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

4245 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Barber.

Mrs Barber: Thank you, Mr President. I will keep it relatively short, you will all be glad to know. 4250 For me, I welcome the Report, actually. I read it through. I think that there absolutely, as has already been very clearly stated by other Members, are things that do not work as well as we would all like them to. And actually, the ability to change and to develop as an organisation is the ability to look at that and say, when things do not work, how can we improve them? I recognise that is hard when you have got an establishment that is as old as this one. There are lots of things 4255 that have been like this for a long time, and it is a little bit scary, I think is probably the word. It is a little bit like phone boxes: do we keep them; do we change? But we will get on to that later. (Laughter) ‘Spoiler alert!’ But for me, I think this has to be an iterative process, and that point of having a review is absolutely fundamental. So we make a decision today. We have the ability to try something, and equally, I think 4260 Mrs Lord-Brennan makes some really valid points. But for me, they would become, potentially, part of that iterative process about how we develop and evolve our system, to enable us to provide better scrutiny to the secondary legislation that we evaluate on a frequent nature in this House and is of such importance. We have seen how important it is in terms of the operation and function of our statute books. It is absolutely imperative we have enabling legislation where the 4265 predominant part of functional legislation sits within those secondary pieces of legislation that can be huge. It is absolutely imperative that we try and get those, once they are ready, published; not just for the people who sit in here in this Hon. Court, but also for the public. To allow people to have a look to understand how those pieces of legislation will affect their day-to-day lives. So I see this as part of an iterative process. This is something we should always be engaged in; 4270 reviewing, looking, learning and acknowledging sometimes we might try things and they might not work, but being unafraid to try things where we can see that there is something that is not working now. For me, that is absolutely clear. So one of my key questions is around the operational functionality of it. I think we can all see the core principles here. What we are going to need to see now is the meat on the bones. How 4275 will that actually work? So I can see some huge potential benefits within this, around the search functions, the ability to look in Questions, perhaps to actually categorise them by theme, so when you are trying to find details of what has happened, you have not got the search function we have now, which – and I apologise to whoever created it – leads me down a garden path that I can never find my way out of to find the detail I am looking for! But perhaps starts to theme those 4280 Questions so that when the public are looking to see, actually, what Questions have been asked on this and where has that led to in terms of policy and the legislation, how has that evolved? I think there is a huge benefit for Members in that regard as well, about having Questions actually embedded into one place, rather than sitting in all of the separate sittings, where you start to fish back and find the piece you are looking for and then scrolling through the Hansard. So I think there 4285 is a benefit from that. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I think the other thing to say is that that extra time for scrutiny, in my opinion, is absolutely not the thing that stops us from being nimble in this place. I think, actually, there are a huge number of things around the processes we go through that prevent us being nimble. I think what we need to look at is how we enable those amendments where we can do them at shorter notice; how we 4290 can make sure we get the detail right. We do have the ability to amend motions on the floor of this Court, but it would be great if we could have the opportunity for some of that information to be laid in advance, so we can start to have those really collaborative discussions to get something that we can all settle around and to start thinking, ‘Well, there might be a little bit of nuancing needed, but actually, that’s pretty much where I am at, too.’ And actually, we can talk to our 4295 constituents about that. It is very hard to gauge your constituents’ thoughts when you are sitting here, in amongst it, getting amendments flying at your desk and trying to get them in some ______1859 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

semblance of order to understand what on earth it is you are voting for! That for me is not the way to make good policy and to make good decisions. If we can do this in advance, it would be for the betterment of everyone. 4300 So I would urge everyone to support this in the spirit of adopting change, of being a progressive parliament, and with that, I will be supporting. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: I call on Mr Speaker to reply. 4305 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank all those who have spoken and to my colleagues on the Committee for clarifying issues as we go, which has meant that I hopefully will be able to shorten my concluding remarks. 4310 In terms of speed, we have had a great tank of ideas go into this Report and I suppose, yes, it has taken longer than we would hope to get this Report out. Do not underestimate the difficulties, and the issue that has not been raised is the difficulties of getting nine Hon. Members’ diaries together in order to meet to discuss this. But it has not been through lack of enthusiasm, willingness or engagement. 4315 In terms of the speed of the Tynwald process, I think we have made it easier to bring forward matters of urgency when they are needed and lowered the threshold for urgent issues to be put before this Court, no longer requiring a two-thirds majority of this Court to get on the Order Paper, but making it a simple majority of Members of this Court. I think that is a nod towards being able to move more nimbly, more flexibly. 4320 What we have also created is a slower track for complex or lengthy legislation that has the time to need further consideration. This is not a one size fits all, and this is a matter for judgement. There is of course, as Dr Allinson said earlier, how do we know which is which? The ability on the register, as is mentioned in the Report, to flag matters and to say, ‘This is something that we want to slow down on, but this is also fine, we don’t need to worry about that, that can go at the back 4325 end of the Order Paper and we can deal with those together.’ So there is that slower process for eight Members to trigger it, and this is all, as Mr Harmer said, about balancing the interests of Government on the one side to promote its legislative programme, but also to add the value that we all have said at various times that scrutiny brings. As my friend and colleague Mr Ashford also said, secondary legislation is becoming more 4330 complicated more often now than it was when I certainly first came into this Court, and do not forget that we cannot fix problems once the secondary legislation hits the Order Paper. We saw some examples of that, good and bad, in the Emergency Powers provisions. That is the only provision that I know of where we are allowed to make amendments – and now the Public Health Act of course, on the back of that – but that is a very rare example of being able to amend 4335 secondary legislation. It was immensely useful, actually, because it was able to fix defections in the legislation. But it also comes with dangers as well. It is only in relatively recent times, I think it was 2006, that the House of Keys has prevented manuscript amendments without leave of the House, where you could just put in an amendment on the day. Because it is dangerous as well to make law on the fly, and it does need careful scrutiny 4340 from all sides We do not anticipate, it certainly has not been considered that this slow track, shall we call it, would be used frequently, but it does give a mechanism that is not available at the moment for further consideration. Mrs Lord-Brennan made an interesting point about the reference to the Branches and we have 4345 been through a lot of this within the Committee. The advantage with taking it to the Branches, rather than amending it in Tynwald, is of course the Branches meet weekly and so you get far more iterations at it than you would do by dealing it within Tynwald. But what we have not taken away is the fundamental principle that secondary legislation does still belong to Government. So ______1860 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

whilst we can suggest amendments and they may get agreed on, what they are is indicative votes, 4350 they tell you how it should go, but ultimately it will be up to the Government Department to lay a final version before Tynwald and say, ‘That’s for approval: yes or no’, not amending it in Tynwald on the day. That is something that some Members felt very strongly about within the Committee: that this ability to own secondary legislation by Government is sacrosanct, but that there needs to be a way of being able to scrutinise it and suggest changes. I think we find that happy balance 4355 and, as so many have said, this is something that we can try in order to deliver that happy balance. One thing that the changes as a package deliver is that it does not undermine the foundation of what we have already. This builds on it, this adds transparency, this adds so many other tools, but it does not remove the effectiveness of what we have now. So the downside risk of trying this is really very low, because we are still going to have an Order Paper, it is still going to have Items 4360 on it, we are still going to vote on them, in many ways, the way that we do right now. Of course, there are changes that will need changes to process, and I am grateful to Mrs Barber for identifying the opportunities that are required in this. The ability to be able to have better searches, the ability to make the register the new go-to place for the Written Questions, as opposed to an Order Paper which brings it all together in the one point. I think people will be far 4365 more keen at looking at the register going forward than they will at the Order Paper because it will be the new stuff, as opposed to things that have been on there … It is not the way you will go to find the new things, it is the way you will go and find what we are going to vote on in a couple of weeks’ time. As Mr Peake says, this will enhance transparency in the process, and I think that is something that many of us have been seeking. 4370 I come back to the point made by my friend and colleague, Mrs Poole-Wilson, that this is the law. Speed is helpful and provided for, and we have made it easier to move matters of urgency. But it is the law of the land and we do need to take it on with a certain amount of due consideration and a certain amount of due process. I think that covers all the points that have not been covered by my colleagues on the 4375 Committee, Mr President, and I want to thank all of the Members of the Standing Orders Committee for their work on this Report. It has been wonderful to sit with some fellow geeks on parliamentary procedure – and you know who you are! I do not need to name you. It has been a really good intellectual exercise and I think it has brought together a package that really is a case for change, is a case for flexibility, is a case for transparency and is a case for modernisation. 4380 With that, Mr President, I beg to move.

The President: Now, Hon. Members, we move to a vote on the Recommendations, which we will take in turn, and I trust that everybody has a list of the Recommendations. They extend over five pages of the Report, but they are numbered, so we will go through them carefully. 4385 Recommendation 1, ‘Rolling register’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 2, ‘Status of papers lodged’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 3, ‘Early publication of Papers’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 5

FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Boot Mr Ashford Mr Cannan Mr Baker Mr Quayle Mrs Barber Mr Robertshaw Mrs Caine Mr Shimmins Mr Callister

______1861 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Mrs Christian Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quine Mr Skelly The Speaker Mr Thomas

4390 The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys, 17 for, 5 against.

In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1

FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson Mr Henderson Mr Greenhill The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: And in the Council, 7 votes for, 1 against. That recommendation therefore carries. Recommendation 4, ‘Items on the Register’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 18, Noes 4

FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Boot Mr Ashford Mr Cannan Mr Baker Mr Robertshaw Mrs Barber Mr Shimmins Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mrs Christian Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Skelly The Speaker Mr Thomas

4395 The Speaker: Mr President, 18 for, 4 against in the Keys.

______1862 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1

FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson Mrs Lord-Brennan Mr Greenhill Mr Henderson The Lord Bishop Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: In Council, 7 for, 1 against; that carries. Recommendation 4A, ‘Members’ names on amendments’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 5, ‘Written questions’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have 4400 it.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 16, Noes 6

FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Dr Allinson Mr Baker Mr Boot Mrs Barber Mr Cannan Mrs Caine Mr Moorhouse Mr Callister Mr Robertshaw Mrs Christian Mr Shimmins Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Skelly The Speaker Mr Thomas

The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys, 16 votes for, 6 against.

In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1

FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson Mr Henderson Mr Greenhill The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: And in the Council, 7 for, 1 against. That therefore carries. Recommendation 5A, ‘Review of the Questions’ system’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 4405 Recommendation 5B, ‘Grouping Questions’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 6, ‘Submitting Questions’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes – ______1863 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 5

FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mrs Caine Mr Ashford Mr Cannan Mr Baker Mr Moorhouse Mrs Barber Mr Robertshaw Mr Boot Mr Shimmins Mr Callister Mrs Christian Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Skelly The Speaker Mr Thomas

The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 17 votes for, 5 against.

In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0

FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson None Mr Greenhill Mr Henderson The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: In Council, 8 for, none against. That carries. 4410 Recommendation 7, ‘Proper use of subordinate legislation’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 5

FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Boot Mr Ashford Mr Cannan Mr Baker Mr Robertshaw Mrs Barber Mr Shimmins Mrs Caine Mr Thomas Mr Callister Mrs Christian Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins

______1864 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Skelly The Speaker

The Speaker: Mr President, 17 votes for, 5 against.

In the Council – Ayes 5, Noes 3

FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill Miss August-Hanson The Lord Bishop Mr Henderson Mrs Maska Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: In the Council, 5 for, 3 against. That motion therefore carries, recommendation carries. 4415 Recommendation 8, ‘Notice of proposed subordinate legislation’. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 8A. Those in favour, say aye; against, no.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 14, Noes 8

FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Boot Mr Ashford Mr Callister Mr Baker Mr Cannan Mrs Barber Ms Edge Mrs Caine Mr Quayle Mrs Christian Mr Robertshaw Mr Harmer Mr Shimmins Mr Hooper Mr Thomas Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quine Mr Skelly The Speaker

The Speaker: Mr President, 14 for, 8 against.

In the Council – Ayes 4, Noes 4

FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill Miss August-Hanson Mrs Maska Mr Henderson Mrs Poole-Wilson The Lord Bishop Mrs Sharpe Mrs Lord-Brennan

The President: And in the Council, 4 for, 4 against. The motion carries. 4420 Recommendation 8B. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 9. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.

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A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 5

FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Dr Allinson Mr Baker Mr Boot Mrs Barber Mr Callister Mrs Caine Mr Cannan Mrs Christian Mr Shimmins Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Skelly The Speaker Mr Thomas

The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 17 for, 5 against.

In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1

FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson Mr Henderson Mr Greenhill The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: In the Council, 7 for and 1 against. That carries. Recommendation 10. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 4425 Recommendation 11. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I put the substantive motion at Item 5, recommendations as amended. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 18, Noes 4

FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Boot Mr Ashford Mr Cannan Mr Baker Mr Quayle Mrs Barber Mr Shimmins Mr Callister Mrs Caine Mrs Christian Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake ______1866 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Mr Perkins Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Skelly The Speaker Mr Thomas

The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 18 for, 4 against.

In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 1

FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson Mr Henderson Mr Greenhill The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: And in the Council, 7 votes for, 1 against. The motion carries. 4430 That completes Item 5.

6. Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee – First Report 2020-21: Legal Services – Debate commenced

The Chair of the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee (Mrs Poole-Wilson) to move:

That the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee’s First Report for the Session 2020-21: Legal Services [PP No 2020/0191(1)] [PP No 2020/0191(2)] be received; and that Tynwald is of the opinion that: (1) The Manx legal system is in urgent need of reform; (2) The training system for Manx advocates is out of date and insufficient; (3) The system for qualification should be brought into line with the qualification system in England and Wales; (4) There should be a system of practising certificates for Manx advocates and others practising on the Island; (5) The process for re-qualifying as a Manx advocate for barristers and solicitors from other common law jurisdictions should be simplified; (6) It should be possible for legal practitioners to be given automatic temporary licences, giving them right of audience in Isle of Man courts, if they are briefed by a Manx advocate; (7) Registered Legal Practitioners should be classed as Manx advocates with a restricted licence, based on demonstrable experience and expertise; (8) A system of Common Professional Development should be introduced; (9) The Law Society should not be the representative body and the regulator; (10) The disciplinary system for advocates should be reformed and, in particular, the Advocates’ Disciplinary Tribunal in its current form should be abolished; and (11) That the Council of Ministers should commission an independent review of the regulation of legal services in the Isle of Man, chaired by a person who has not practised law in the Isle of

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Man. The review should consider options for implementing the reforms identified in this Report, in particular:  The development of better resources for training advocates;  Introduction of practising certificates;  A new, faster route to requalification as a Manx advocate for foreign- qualified lawyers;  Keeping qualification in step with England and Wales;  The abolition of the category of Registered Legal Professional;  A definition of the ‘provision of legal services in the Isle of Man’;  The separation of regulation from representation; and A more transparent, user-friendly complaints system, ideally with a single point of entry, which is able to provide proper guidance as to the standards of conduct expected of all lawyers practising on the Isle of Man.

The Review should report by July 2022.

[GD No 2021/0010] is relevant to this Item.

The President: Item 6, Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee, Legal Services. I call on the Chair of the Committee, Mrs Poole-Wilson, to move.

The Chair of the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee (Mrs Poole-Wilson): 4435 Thank you, Mr President. Before I begin my substantive remarks, I would like to note for the record that I am a qualified solicitor of England and Wales, non-practising, and that my husband is also a qualified solicitor of England and Wales, who works at a local commercial law firm. Hon. Members, in moving this Report of the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice 4440 Committee, I want to emphasise the central and key point that review and reform is needed; and I want to explain why. Your Committee began this Inquiry in 2018. As well as taking evidence, we looked at past reviews. What became clear was that earlier recommended and Tynwald-approved reform had not been delivered fully, or at all in some instances. It also became clear that we are increasingly 4445 out of step with change and reform in neighbouring jurisdictions. Finally, we could see that without a determined and urgent focus on review and reform, we would miss out on the economic opportunities that come with a vibrant and growing legal services market. Our first conclusion, that the Manx legal system is in urgent need of reform, must thus be seen in that context. Without urgent review and reform, we will deny ourselves the opportunity for 4450 growth and we will not deliver necessary, and in some cases long overdue, reform to the provision of legal services and the regulation of the profession. Hon. Members will have had the chance to review the Council of the Isle of Man Law Society’s response to our Report, which was recently circulated and, whilst not agreeing with all of the matters raised by the Committee, it is apparent that they too recognise there are a number of 4455 significant areas that require reform and improvement. We understand the rationale for the proposed Government amendment to our first conclusion and, as it still recognises the need for review and reform following such a review, we can accept it. Through our Inquiry, the Committee identified three broad areas in need of reform. These are: 4460 first, training and continued quality assurance referenced by our conclusions numbered (2), (3) and (8); secondly, access, referenced by our conclusions (4), (5), (6) and (7); and, finally, the dual role of representation and regulation, as well as complaints and discipline referenced by our conclusions (9) and (10).

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Looking first, then, at training and continued quality assurance, Hon. Members, the last 4465 substantial inquiry into legal services in the Isle of Man was led by Sir Cecil Clothier more than 30 years ago. The Committee recognises and agrees with the conclusion reached in the Clothier Report that:

… it is in the Island’s best interests to preserve the distinctive character of its legal system.

The Clothier Report based this conclusion on both practical grounds, recognising the upheaval involved in abandoning our system, but also the advantages of our freedom to legislate to suit our 4470 own needs. In particular, Clothier cited at the time the Island’s status as a financial centre and its prosperity being dependent on Government policy, supported by the ability for us to make our own legislation. However, Clothier also recognised, and we reflect this in our Report, that with the exception of land law where we do have many more differences due to historic developments during the Viking period, in many areas of law such as contract, tort, commercial law and family 4475 law, the law of England and Wales has been adopted with whatever modifications are necessary to suit local requirements. Recognising the importance of an understanding of the law of England and Wales, our own Isle of Man Advocates Admission Regulations require those at the outset of their career to obtain either a law degree, or a non-law degree followed by a law conversion course and then a one-year 4480 vocational course, which is typically either the Legal Practice Course in England or Wales to become a solicitor, or the Bar Vocational Course to practise at the Bar of England and Wales. The final part of the route to qualification is hands-on work experience. As an alternative to continuing the qualification process in England and Wales to finally qualify as a solicitor or barrister, those at the outset of their career could at this point come to the Island and complete a two years’ training 4485 contract with a local firm and sit the Manx Bar exam in order to qualify as a Manx advocate. It is worth highlighting that the two-year training period work experience is a feature of other systems for those at the outset of their career and, Hon. Members, an important part of learning to study to apply the study of law to the reality of practice. Your Committee, however, would distinguish this approach for those embarking on their career with those who are experienced 4490 practitioners – a group I will return to talk about shortly. Clothier highlighted problems with the training provided to local trainees, noting a lack of formal structure at the time for training, a lack of formal advocacy training and the absence of textbooks and scarcity of other written materials relating to Manx law. Since that time, there have been some notable improvements. We now do have Manx Courts reports online and an up-to- 4495 date legislation database. The Isle of Man Law Society does now run more training courses, including in the skill of advocacy; and in our Report we recognise that the Law Society, with the help of the judiciary, does the best with the resources it has. However, there remains a scarcity of textbooks and an over-reliance on, as Clothier put it, acquiring a knowledge of Manx law:

… mainly by absorption in practice, which is not on its own considered to be an adequate method of learning.

4500 Nearly 30 years later, this was reflected in evidence to us from the Law Society with express acknowledgement that it is not easy to find sources of Manx law. By contrast, during the Inquiry, we noted with interest the Institute of Law in Jersey, which offers structured tuition and publishes Jersey Law study guides. Hon. Members, the continued absence of authoritative textbooks on Manx law, including commentaries on how our statute and 4505 case law differ, is not only detrimental in terms of proper training for aspiring advocates, it is also important more broadly to enable others who want to understand Manx law to be able to do so and indeed to support the retention of our unique system. A further matter recommended by Clothier was that the Manx Bar exam should concentrate on the differences between Manx law and that elsewhere. In evidence to us, the First Deemster

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4510 agreed that that is supposed to be the focus of the Manx Bar exams; commenting that whether it does that at the moment is arguable. Our second conclusion, that the training system for Manx Advocates is out of date and insufficient reflects these concerns. We note the Government’s agreement with this in its response. 4515 In addition to these outstanding reforms, developments in England and Wales affect the main pipeline for qualification of new advocates here on the Island. The Solicitors Regulation Authority in England and Wales has developed its ‘Training for Tomorrow’ programme in response to a 2013 report of the Legal Education and Training Review, which called for a greater focus of regulatory attention on the standards required of solicitors, both at qualification and on an 4520 ongoing basis. A key resulting change is that, with effect from this autumn, the Solicitors Qualifying Examination (SQE) will come into operation providing a new and standardised route to admittance as a solicitor. The reforms in England and Wales also recognise that prospective solicitors need not necessarily have completed a degree provided they can demonstrate competency and skills of high enough standards to join the profession. 4525 Hon. Members, the vast majority of trainee advocates on Island complete their vocational training in the English and Welsh system and most foreign qualified lawyers based in the Isle of Man are from England and Wales. For these reasons, our third conclusion is that the system for qualifications should be brought into line with the qualification system in England and Wales. The Council of Ministers, in its response to this conclusion, has cited that the current system of 4530 qualification in the Isle of Man is rigorous and ensures a consistently high standard for all those who wish to practise at the Manx Bar and that, in its view, the new SQE test will consist of multiple- choice questions and will lessen the quality of the Manx legal profession in general. We would question this in light of the commentary already made and agreed with by the Council of Ministers, about the adequacy of the current training system for Manx advocates. It is 4535 also important to note that the central aim of the Solicitors Regulation Authority is to enable more routes to qualification as a solicitor, including adopting a more flexible approach that will allow individuals to combine study with working, whilst maintaining rigorous standards and, through the SQE, having a consistent means of assessing this. We have also noted that the Institute of Law in Jersey has already established a partnership with a training provider to help students prepare 4540 for the new SQE. However, having said that, we welcome in our Report the fact that work is under way by the Isle of Man Law Society to modernise the exam syllabus and reform its system of qualification. We also welcome that this matter as an identified area for reform will be addressed, if supported today by this Hon. Court, in the independent review we advocate as our central recommendation. Thus the Committee can agree the proposed amendment to our third 4545 conclusion. Linked to addressing the qualification route and adequacy of initial training is the matter of ongoing quality assurance. Unlike in neighbouring jurisdictions, there is no requirement for Manx advocates to undertake continuous professional development, and while the Isle of Man Law Society does run training courses, attendance is not compulsory. There is a practice rule that states 4550 that advocates must only practise in areas of law in which they are competent to do so, but there is no active monitoring of advocates to ensure they do keep themselves up to date, and thus no clear way of demonstrating to the wider public that an individual remains competent to offer legal services in the Isle of Man. Our eighth conclusion, that a system of Continuous Professional Development should be 4555 introduced, seeks to address this. We welcome the Council of Ministers’ support for this and would look to the output of an independent review on this point, to result in a system which should not simply tick a box, but be a meaningful way of requiring ongoing training and providing quality assurance. Now turning to our second broad theme, that of access. In the course of our Inquiry, we 4560 considered the variety of ways in which different groups are able to have access to provide legal services on the Island and the way they are regulated. We identified a number of anomalies that ______1870 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

we found difficult to rationalise or justify. We also found that such anomalies create, in some cases, unnecessary access hurdles and result in an absence of local regulation of some providers of legal services. Our conclusions (4), (5), (6) and (7) all speak to these matters. 4565 When considering access, we consider it important to distinguish between those at the start of their legal career and those who have been in practice elsewhere and thus have experience – in some cases, considerable specialist experience. Our concerns thus relate particularly to lawyers who have qualified elsewhere, typically England and Wales, and have gained professional experience often having specialised in a particular area of legal practice. The present position of 4570 requiring practitioners qualified elsewhere who wish to become a Manx advocate to take all the heads of the Manx Bar exams, as well as undertake a one-year training contract in a local firm, seems to be disproportionate if that individual would in fact intend to practise only in his or her area of specialism on the Island. Indeed, the present system already recognises that passing the Manx Bar exams and a training period is not required as a gateway to other roles in our legal 4575 services system, suggesting that a more nuanced approach could be more widely adopted. Hon. Members, using the analogy of a door: for some the door is currently wide open, and it is possible to walk straight in and be part of our legal services. A good example is off-Island Panel Deemsters who are not required to be qualified Manx advocates. This is also true of other roles, such as the Legal Aid Certifying Officer, the Judge of Appeal, the Attorney General. What matters, 4580 quite rightly, in the view of your Committee, is sufficient relevant experience and competency for the post. There is then a group for whom the door is relatively easily opened to access a particular area of legal practice. This applies in the case of those coming from off Island to be prosecutors, for whom there is currently a legislative carve-out in that they do not have to sit the Manx Bar exam 4585 and, following a three-month training period, are able to appear in court. But the scope of their practice is limited to the criminal bar. Again, the Committee believes this is a pragmatic, proportionate and appropriate approach. However, in the vast majority of other cases, we do not permit access to the Manx Bar in such a proportionate and targeted way. Thus we have foreign-qualified lawyers working on the Isle of 4590 Man who are not members of the Manx Bar and who are thus not able to become partners or directors of their firms and also who, in many cases, are not subject to personal regulation on the Island. The relevant regulator is that in the lawyer’s home qualification jurisdiction, an unsatisfactory situation, we would suggest, where they are providing legal advice on Manx law to Island clients. 4595 The picture is further complicated by the category of Registered Legal Practitioner (RLP). This is a group of people who have not qualified in the Isle of Man but who are working as lawyers here and who apply to register as a registered legal practitioner under the Legal Practitioners Registration Act 1986. RLPs are not able to conduct proceedings in Manx courts or prepare documents relating to Manx real estate, as these are areas of practice reserved for Manx 4600 Advocates, but they are able to draw instruments relating to personal property. Registered legal practitioners may become associate members of the Law Society – and in our Report at the time of writing we noted, there are 28 – and they may be brought before the Island’s Advocates’ Disciplinary Tribunal on some matters, but we would suggest that the current operation of the Legal Practitioners Registration Act is not fit for purpose and should be reformed. 4605 In addition to these problematic inconsistencies in regulation and oversight, we consider that our present restrictive approach to access risks limiting economic growth. The Clothier Report noted in 1990 that with, and I quote:

the desire of Government to attract financial concerns of substance to the Island, there is some evidence to suggest that the profession is not producing sufficient people qualified to advise and represent clients on matters involving complex and weighty financial disputes.

Clothier also noted that there was:

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… also evidence to show that the supply of suitably qualified people is increasing and that the situation has been alleviated by the appearance of several firms of English Solicitors.

We note that the Manx Bar has grown since then and now there are more specialist 4610 practitioners today, albeit not always members of the Manx Bar. But, Hon. Members, we should not rest on our laurels. On the contrary: we should look to how we can expand this area of the economy. As Hon. Members are aware, work is now under way to develop an Economic Strategy for the Isle of Man as well as ongoing work by the Finance Agency to drive forward new business opportunities. The legal services to support and facilitate new economic activity is a key part of 4615 attracting business here, and as Mr Kermeen of Keystone Law pointed out in his evidence to the Committee:

… the more of a drive there is to having real substance in the Isle of Man, the more you are going to need to see lawyers who have the expertise to service that.

A Member: Hear, hear.

Mrs Poole-Wilson: Hon. Members, the law has become increasingly complicated with the 4620 consequence that commercial practitioners will often specialise and their clients will expect access to high levels of competence across a range of technical and specialist areas: commercial law, pensions, intellectual property, employment law, trusts, tax, and so on. The present rules on access for experienced practitioners is overdue for reform and is problematic both from an economic and regulatory perspective. We identified proposals to 4625 address these issues, which we set out in our conclusions numbered (4) to (7), namely: that there be a system of practising certificates for Manx Advocates and others practising on the Island; that the process for requalifying as a Manx advocate for barristers and solicitors from other common law jurisdictions should be simplified; that it should be possible for legal practitioners to be given automatic temporary licences, giving them right of audience in the Isle of Man courts if they are 4630 briefed by a Manx Advocate; and, that registered legal practitioners should be classed as Manx advocates with a restricted licence based on demonstrable experience and expertise. None of these conclusions seeks to dilute the quality and robustness of the Manx Bar. On the contrary: by recognising the experience and expertise of practitioners from elsewhere and adopting a proportionate and tailored requalification process to enable them to join the Manx Bar 4635 and to be licensed to advise on their particular area of expertise, a matter which could be expressly set out within a practising certificate, we have the opportunity to develop our legal services market to the benefit of consumers and our wider economy. We would also have the opportunity to have a more joined-up system that would expand the membership of the Manx Bar, provide for the local regulation of individual lawyers advising on Manx law and provide transparency 4640 regarding individual advocates’ areas of specialism. We note in its response to our conclusion, the Government expresses support for improved consumer protection through increased professional oversight for Manx advocates and others practising on Island. We also note some of the questions and notes of caution raised by the Government regarding adopting a more straightforward route for practitioners from elsewhere 4645 requalifying, including the idea of registered legal practitioners being able to be classed as Manx advocates with a restricted licence linked to their expertise. We would suggest that our proposals for a more nuanced and targeted approach to requalification and scoped practice certificates would be an improvement and consistent with the open-door approach we already have for certain roles in our system. 4650 So whilst we would differ on some of the commentary in the Government’s response, we are able to accept the proposed Government amendments, as they acknowledge all these matters as important areas to be addressed through an independent review. Hon. Members, our final area of concern is that of representation and regulation, complaints and discipline. This is also an area in which reform is long overdue. Our ninth conclusion is that

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4655 the Law Society should not be the representative body and the regulator, and we welcome the Council of Ministers’ recognition of the inherent conflict position and support for including this area of reform within the independent review. This matter and the matter of complaints and discipline are all areas when neighbouring jurisdictions have either already progressed reform or are in the course of doing so. Hon. Members, it is important that in this, as in other areas, we now 4660 do see meaningful reform. As regards regulatory separation, the Clementi review into the position of regulation and representation in England and Wales in the early- to mid-2000s, led to the separation of representation and regulation for solicitors in England and Wales. Ireland took a similar step in 2019 setting up the Legal Services Regulatory Authority as the independent regulator of 4665 solicitors and barristers. Of course, our size and scale is relevant to the approach we adopt here, but the principle – as referenced earlier by my hon. colleague, Mrs Lord-Brennan – of robust and effective separate regulation is an important one, and one which we consider should be embraced as part of reform. As regards complaints and discipline, the evidence we heard left us in no doubt that there is 4670 considerable scope to improve the current position. Presently, the Isle of Man Law Society requires firms to have an internal complaints procedure but offers no guidance as to what it should contain, nor performs any quality checks on internal complaints handling. We were also unclear how effectively the internal complaints procedure works with regard to sole practitioners, commenting in our Report that we understand the complaint should be referred to an advocate 4675 in another firm, but otherwise that there is no specific guidance provided by the Law Society to sole practitioners on how to deal with complaints. In its recently circulated response to our Report we note that the Isle of Man Law Society plans to issue guidance on this area. Such steps to effect improvements pending the outcome of the review are, of course, welcome. The Isle of Man Law Society also advised us that if a client was 4680 dissatisfied with how a firm had handled their complaint, they could approach the Law Society and make use of their conciliation service. We understand that this service is provided by a conciliator who is not an advocate or a member of the Manx Bar and that the Chief Executive Officer and the Law Society Council is not involved in any way. Nonetheless, we believe there is a risk of a perception of conflict of interest as this service is provided by the Law Society. 4685 Hon. Members, I was actually telephoned yesterday by an individual to ask for my help, because the firm about which the person wanted to raise a concern, they were worried would not be listened to by the Law Society because of the membership of one of those partners on the Law Society Council. This is a real issue that our citizens do come across here. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) 4690 We also understand that the conciliator produces an annual report for the Law Society and any issues in it are raised with the relevant committee of the Law Society and dealt with where appropriate through training. However, there is no publication of the outcomes of complaints, meaning that the wider public cannot easily find out how and whether complaints have been dealt with. (A Member: Hear, hear.) There is also no provision for recompense. While we support the 4695 provision of a conciliation service, we do not believe it should be the final step for all service complaints before an individual is forced into litigation. The Law Society has suggested expansion of the conciliation service to include a more formal way of resolving complaints. We would suggest that it would need to be administered separately from the Law Society in order to work most effectively. 4700 Separately, complaints about professional misconduct are dealt with by the Advocates’ Disciplinary Tribunal, the ADT. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the Tribunal does not generally deal with matters such as negligence, breach of contract, compensation claims or disputes over advocates’ bills and charges. The complaint has to be against a named advocate, and since 2017 a complaint now usually has to be brought against the complainant’s own 4705 advocate. As I explained earlier, there is no requirement for foreign-qualified lawyers who are not Manx advocates to register as a registered legal practitioner; and, if they do not, they will not be ______1873 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

subject to the disciplinary regime here. A better model, we would suggest, is that all lawyers working in the Isle of Man and advising on Manx law are subject to some level of personal regulation on the Isle of Man. 4710 There are a number of other shortcomings in the present model for complaints handling and discipline detailed in our Report. In summary, these include the lack of a single entry point for complaints; difficulty in distinguishing in practice between professional misconduct and other complaints such as poor service provision; and a multiplicity of disparate rules governing the conduct of advocates, which makes it difficult for even lawyers – as one of them in fact wrote to 4715 me to point out – let alone consumers, to navigate the system. Of further concern, the Committee noted that reforms to the Advocates’ Disciplinary Tribunal recommended in the Calcutt Report some 20 years ago remain outstanding. This Report was produced by a Legal Services Commission chaired by Sir David Calcutt and tasked with investigating and reporting on the regulatory and disciplinary procedures applicable to those 4720 practising law in the Island. Calcutt concluded that the ADT could not be considered to be independent and impartial within the terms of Article 6(1) one of the European Convention on Human Rights and that it was, quote, ‘over-lawyered’. Recommendations to address this included reducing the number of members of the ADT from five to three; that the Chair should not be a practising lawyer or come from a legal background; and of the other two Members, that one could 4725 be a practising lawyer, but the other should not have a legal background; that appointment should be for a maximum term of five years; that there should be a pre-hearing assessment stage; that hearings should be in public; and that levels of fines and penalties should be kept under review. Hon. Members, we have made no progress on those reforms. Our 10th conclusion, that the disciplinary system for advocates should be reformed, and in 4730 particular the ADT in its current form should be abolished, reflects this now long-overdue reform. We note the Government’s proposed amendment and the Committee again welcomes that there is recognition of the need for reform and that such reform should be brought forward as part of an independent review. Hon. Members, I thank you for bearing with me, but I felt it was very important to articulate 4735 the many aspects of this Inquiry and why we have brought forward our conclusions in the way we have. Our final conclusion and our central recommendation for an independent review of the regulation of legal services in the Isle of Man to include options for implementing reforms is, we note, supported by the Council of Ministers. Their proposed amendment, we do support, given it reflects the key goal of the Committee, embraces bringing forward options for reform of the areas 4740 identified and includes an earlier reporting deadline. Hon. Members, the Calcutt Review published in 2001, recommended there be a review of legal services every 10 years. A review is thus overdue. However, any review must be supported by action to implement its output. This Committee’s First Report recommending that there be ministerial responsibility for justice was supported by this Hon. Court and this executive 4745 responsibility will be important to ensure commitment to the delivery of reforms in due course. In addition the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee will, I hope, going forward, take an active role in scrutinising the progress of implementation of recommended reforms. This has been an extensive Inquiry and I would like to thank fellow Committee Members, the 4750 Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw, and the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper, for their work throughout. I would also like to thank, latterly, the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs who, unfortunately, is not with us today, as well as the Minister for Policy and Reform for their full engagement with the Committee and the opportunity to discuss our conclusions and our thinking. 4755 On behalf of the Committee I would also like to thank our Clerks for their enormous work effort and support. I would like to highlight the extensive contribution in particular of Francisca Gale, Inge Perry (A Member: Hear, hear.) and Rachel Mundilo.

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Finally, I would also like to thank the Law Society for its extensive engagement with the Committee during this Inquiry. We recognise that there is work ongoing by the Law Society to 4760 undertake reform. I hope, Hon. Members, that if our Report is supported today, we can all look forward to the proposed review getting under way and for accelerated positive reform to address the areas we have identified for improvement, as well as to harness the economic opportunities for future legal services growth. Thank you, Mr President. 4765 The President: Thank you, Hon. Member. Hon. Members, this would be a good point at which to take our refreshment break. The Court will now adjourn until 10 minutes to six. Thank you.

The Court adjourned at 5.23 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.52 p.m.

Announcement of Royal Assent

4770 The President: Hon. Members, before we resume the debate on Item 6, I can announce that Royal Assent has today been given to the Communications Act 2021, the Elections and Meetings (Local Authorities) Act 2021 and the Medicines (Amendment) Act 2021.

Members: Hear, hear.

Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee – Debate continued – Motion carried

4775 The President: Now I call the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.

Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President, and I take real pleasure in seconding the motion before Hon. Members. Our Chairman has presented the case with her usual absolute clarity and therefore I will not 4780 return to the specific areas that she has highlighted to Hon. Members. With your permission, Mr President, I will allow myself a little bit of latitude here and go slightly broader. I think what I want to pick out is this whole issue of time: how long it has taken us to get here. You will recall our Chairman talked about the Clothier Report 1990 – that is 30 … 31 years ago, I got that right! – and Calcutt, 20 years ago. For me this started when I first stood for the House of 4785 Keys in 2006 and there were two stand-out issues as I was canvassing that struck me very forcibly. One was the issue of a limited number of landlords who were conducting themselves in an unacceptable way, and it is only now that we are struggling to get to the point, with some issues still to recover about the interrelationship of the Equality Act with the Landlord Bill; but the other one, the big one, was a feeling that people were unhappy about how legal services were working 4790 for them, and that kept coming back. On the occasions since then that I have canvassed as the various general elections went by, the same thing has come up and up and up again. For that reason it has always been a matter of deep concern to me. It would be easy to blame the legal profession, but I think that would be wrong because if we reflect back I think we as an Hon. Court recognised the fact that there was a gap in ______1875 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

4795 what we were doing. Hon. Members, you will recall that you recognised that also and a few years ago introduced the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee. In turn, the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee recognised that there was nothing opposite us on the executive side and, again, Tynwald recognised that and introduced the Minister for Justice. 4800 I have to say that when I first heard the Chief Minister announce that we were going to get the Minister for Justice I thought the Chief Minister was ticking a box and I thought, wow, this is not going to get us very far. Well, how wrong can you be, and I look at the Chief Minister and say, I was wrong!

4805 A Member: Ooh!

The Chief Minister: It is a good job I was sitting down, isn’t it! (Laughter)

Mr Robertshaw: Because I want to bring forward this motion before you today, the process 4810 that we have gone through to get to the point where we are really addressing the issues that we need to address. Let me be frank, when the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee first sat down it was almost overwhelming, wasn’t it, the amount of work that was before us and this is only step one really, but an important step forward. But I was really pleased with the way the executive, through the Minister for Justice – and 4815 although he is not here, I hope he can hear me. (Interjection) He can. There is little joke between us because I got into the habit when we were on virtual meetings that I would often start, Mr President and Mr Speaker, you will recall, with ‘Can you hear me?’ and every so often I would get a text from the Minister for Justice saying, ‘Can you hear me, mother?’ and there was a wind- up joke going on there. So I do hope that the Minister for Justice can hear me now and a little 4820 wind-up for him, I hope he is keeping at least one eye on us today – if anybody knows why he is not with us. He will understand that. (Laughter) That took time, didn’t it! (A Member: Oh, my Lord!) But I really am grateful to him and the sub-committee for the engagement. To me, it has been the epitome of how the policy review process should work with the executive. There were 4825 differences between us, we worked those through and we got to a point where we could meet on the amendments to be brought forward by the Council in the form of the Minister for Policy and Reform this afternoon. So the work begins, and what an awful lot of work there is. I do hope that Hon. Members can support both this Report and the amendments today. I want to, in closing, just say something else. Normally it is up to the Chairman to thank 4830 everybody, as she has done, for the work put into this but I want to take the opportunity to thank the Chairman, (Several Members: Hear, hear.) because she has done an absolutely remarkable job on this – endless, endless hours – and we owe her true thanks for that. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Also, as I said, CoMin. I am going to step outside of normal process slightly and also, as he arrives at his remaining 4835 months, I would like to thank the Clerk of Tynwald for his tremendous commitment to the Committee in the work that he helped us with, and I hope he looks back with some satisfaction in his retirement on where the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee started, where it got to, and perhaps hopefully he and I when we are sitting in our retirement can see continued excellent work on the part of the Justice Committee. 4840 So with that, Mr President, I am very happy indeed to second. Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, Mr Harmer.

4845 Mr Harmer: Thank you, Mr President.

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Obviously, I am providing a response today, because unfortunately, the Minister for Home Affairs and Justice is self-isolating, but I would echo the thanks to the Committee for their work in looking at the legal services in the Isle of Man. They have spent an enormous amount of time considering the matter diligently, and put a good deal of thought into their recommendations. 4850 This is the first major matter to be considered by the Council of Ministers’ Sub-Committee on Justice, and I would also like to thank the Committee for their work in advising the Council of Ministers on the most appropriate responses. I would especially like to thank the Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake, and the Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe, for their input that they have provided from their respective Departments to the Council of Ministers’ Sub-Committee on 4855 Justice. Both I and Minister Cregeen have had useful engagement with the Tynwald Committee on the Report, and I am grateful for the constructive approach they have taken. Whilst we do not see eye to eye on some of the recommendations or wording on some of the conclusions, I think we broadly agree on the direction of travel. For that reason, I know Mrs Poole-Wilson, as Chair of the 4860 Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee, has agreed to support the amendments to the recommendations proposed by CoMin. Mr President, to summarise, the Council of Ministers supports the approach of the Committee that an independent review of legal services in the Isle of Man takes place and that the review will address the main points in the Report and offer options for implementation where appropriate. 4865 I think it is important to say for Hansard that the Council of Ministers agrees that the legal services in the Isle of Man are in need of reform, but the Report’s conclusion that the legal system in the Isle of Man is in urgent need of reform does not give an accurate reflection of the area of the Committee’s concerns. In discussions with the Committee, we raised the issue and agreed, on reflection, it had not been their intention to make such a broad and far-reaching statement. 4870 Language is important, Hon. Members, as is the impression we give to those who might wish to do business here and who rely on the rule of law here to be free, fair and impartial. For these reasons, Council of Ministers seeks an amendment to this recommendation. We cannot consider legal services in the Isle of Man without also reflecting on the role of the Law Society. I am aware they have strong views on the Committee’s Report. I do believe that the issue 4875 of how advocates and other legal professionals practising in the Isle of Man are regulated needs to be examined. I share the views of the Tynwald Committee that the idea of a society which is a regulator and also the representative body does not sit comfortably with me. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I do hear the views of the Law Society who argue that the scale is an important issue to consider 4880 when looking at the subject, but it is still an area of concern. The Law Society plays a key role in the education and development of advocates in the Isle of Man and in access to the Manx Bar. So I am pleased that the Law Society has committed to implementing the planned reforms to the education and qualification roles, reflecting the changes made to the entry requirements to the legal profession in England and Wales. This addresses the recommendations made by the 4885 Committee in this respect and the Council of Ministers seeks to amend the recommendation to direct the Law Society to make the changes as soon as possible. I am also pleased that the Law Society will be addressing the issue of continued professional development for its members, and I look forward to hearing their plans for this in due course. Now turning to the matter of eligibility to practise in the Isle of Man. This is a theme which 4890 spans several of the recommendations, particularly those linked to practising certificates, entry to the Manx Bar for those already qualified and temporary rights of audience. These are complex issues and reflect both the constitutionally separate position of the Isle of Man and also the specific nature of our economy. They also correctly capture issues relating to the protection for customers – a point which is often missed when considering how best to regulate legal services. 4895 For that reason, the Council of Ministers is grateful to the Committee for highlighting the issues in these areas and supports further investigation by independent review.

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Finally, turning to the matter of the disciplinary system for advocates and the recommendations of the Committee for the abolition of the Advocates’ Disciplinary Tribunal. The Council of Ministers acknowledges that this is an area in need of reform. Council believes that any 4900 new system should be more transparent and the constitution should be properly considered. At this stage Council requires further information to inform a decision as to whether the Committee itself should be abolished and, if so, how it should be replaced. So the Council of Ministers supports this matter being included in the scope of an independent review. Mr President, to conclude, this Report on legal services in the Isle of Man is welcome and 4905 timely. I am grateful to the Committee for their consideration of the matter. The legal profession in the Isle of Man plays a vital role in driving our economy, providing independent and expert legal advice to those in commercial and family disputes and, importantly, representing those accused of committing a crime, ensuring that justice is seen to be free, fair and available to all. Legal services sits within the broader legal system in the Isle of Man. Hon. Members, this is 4910 important. Our legal system is fundamental to our constitutional position, our society and our economy. It is the bedrock of who we are and what we stand for. It is right, therefore, that those who practise law in our Island and the framework with which they operate are subject to scrutiny and review, and the customers offered appropriate protection and the best choice. I hope that the independent review will consider and address these issues raised by the Committee and 4915 identify appropriate options to introduce change where needed. I can commit to this Hon. Court that the review will be concluded no later than December 2021. I therefore, Mr President, would like to move the following amendments that have been circulated in my name on behalf of the Council of Ministers and its Justice Sub-Committee. Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move:

As amendments to the motion: Recommendation 1 To leave out all words and insert the words “Aspects of the Manx legal services framework are in need of review and that the Council of Ministers is committed to ensuring that reform is considered and undertaken following such a review;” Recommendation 3 To leave out all words and insert the words “Tynwald should note the changes being made to the entry requirements to the legal profession in England and Wales and directs the Law Society to revise its system for qualification to ensure there remains a clear path to qualification for Manx students which addresses the issue of a route to the Manx Bar for those without a legal degree;” Recommendation 4 To leave out all words and insert the words “The use and value of practising certificates for improved consumer protection and oversight of all who practise law on the Island, including barristers and solicitors from other common law jurisdictions, should be explored by an independent review into the provision of legal services in the Isle of Man;” Recommendation 5 To leave out all words and insert the words “The process for re-qualifying as a Manx advocate for barristers and solicitors from other common law jurisdictions should be explored by an independent review into legal services in the Isle of Man;” Recommendation 6 To leave out all words and insert the words “An independent review should assess whether the current system of right of audience requires amending and, if so, what alternatives there may be to this system;” Recommendation 7 To leave out all words and insert the words “The process by which non-Manx qualified legal professionals are permitted to practise on the Island and how they are regulated should be considered by an independent review of Manx legal services;” ______1878 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Recommendation 10 To leave out all words and insert the words “The disciplinary system for advocates should be reformed and that this should be considered as part of the independent review of legal services on the Isle of Man;” Recommendation 11 To leave out all words and insert the words “The Council of Ministers should commission an independent review of the regulation of legal services in the Isle of Man, chaired by a person who has not practised law in the Isle of Man. The review should also consider options for implementing identified reforms. The Review should report by December 2021.”

4920 A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Barber.

Mrs Barber: Thank you, Mr President. 4925 The only thing I would say is just to reiterate the comments by Minister Harmer, but also to pass on Mr Cregeen’s apologies that he cannot be here in person but he very much did want to be here and be part of this debate, and supports very much the work of the Committee and the collegiate way in which it has been approached to come up with recommendations and amendments to them that everyone can coalesce around. 4930 So thank you and I second the amendments.

Mr Harmer: Hear, hear.

The President: You second, thank you. 4935 Hon. Member of Council, Mr Greenhill.

Mr Greenhill: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee for their very thorough and in-depth Report containing a number of recommendations on changes that will help 4940 to protect citizens and companies on Island, and also to encourage economic growth on Island. I am extremely pleased that this Report has been reviewed in detail by the Law Society and that, following discussions with CoMin, a number of suggested amendments have been made and then agreed by all three parties. This reform of legal services is very welcome and is overdue so I believe this is a major step forward. 4945 Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. 4950 I would also like to thank the Committee for their considered and comprehensive report. The Isle of Man legal profession is a closed shop. A number of my friends, good friends, are lawyers and they freely acknowledge this fact; and there are pros and cons of a closed shop, Hon. Members. Most of the pros tend to favour the members of the closed shop. In this day and age closed shops are really increasingly unacceptable and calls for change are difficult to resist. 4955 The Chair of the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee is aware that I have constituents who have significant grievances about the conduct of Manx advocates. They have raised Tynwald petitions and provided evidence to a Select Committee, and it is clear if you read the extracts that they have no confidence in the Advocates’ Disciplinary Tribunal. They do not feel it is impartial and they are concerned about cronyism and a kind of ‘good old boy’ mentality.

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4960 So Recommendations 9, that the Law Society should not be both the representative body and the regulator, and 10, the disciplinary system for advocates should be reformed and, in particular, the tribunal in its current form should be abolished, I think are absolutely the way to go and I fully support those. Indeed, I support all the Recommendations being brought forward by the Committee. 4965 The Chair highlighted, I think, for me two items of important context. Firstly, that the calls for change in this area are not new, and they have been going on for a long time – 20 years since the Calcutt Report and my hon. friend from Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw, talked about 30 years for other reports. It seems that actually not that much progress has been made in tackling some of the fundamental issues here. So that, I think, is really important context. 4970 The second context is actually when you do this sort of jurisdictional benchmarking, it does appear that, regrettably, the Manx Bar has fallen behind practice elsewhere in similar places and neighbouring jurisdictions. I think that is unfortunate. But as I say positively, I am very supportive of the Recommendations being brought forward and I think this will actually assist the Manx legal profession. I understand they have got reservations, but I think in the long term they will be greatly 4975 beneficial for the Manx legal profession because there is a danger in any closed shop that you become complacent; and famously, complacency breeds failure and complacency can be the death of innovation. Complacency is not good for anyone, whether you are inside or outside the legal profession, and a strong and successful Manx Bar is an essential component of our national and legal independence. 4980 I look forward very much to the independent review and, given the importance of this matter and the established models and recent reviews elsewhere, I do think this should be relatively straightforward and, for me, this should take months not years. So I also welcome my hon. friend Mr Harmer’s amendment, which brings the date for that review forward to December 2021, rather than July 2022. 4985 In summary, I would conclude by saying speedy reform will be greatly welcomed by the wider Manx community, but it will also enable the Manx legal sector to prosper long-term in a more balanced way. Thank you, Mr President.

4990 A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. 4995 I was also going to talk about Recommendations 9 and 10 just very briefly, because I think this matter about the Advocates’ Disciplinary Tribunal has probably been brought to the attention of various Members in different ways (A Member: Hear, hear.) of being really serious and almost as part of some kind of deeper darker systemic issue where people cannot get redress that is symptomatic of an industry where, to put it kindly, it has fallen behind the times. It is not surprising 5000 because there has been no way to kind of get fresh blood in. It has felt like a closed shop. I hope actually following this it is going to support younger people coming into this industry to revitalise it and shake it up in a different way that is not just about an offshore jurisdiction doing its behind-the-scenes corporate stuff. Because if you are a student at university and you are thinking about coming back to the Island, by the time you have done your degree and maybe you 5005 need to do a conversion course if you have not done law and then you need to do an LPC, the idea of doing the Manx Bar on top of that, people just are not going to do it actually, so many people close that door. So I really welcome that reform. I congratulate very much the Chair. I actually think that it is only Mrs Poole-Wilson that could have brought this forward (A Member: Hear, hear.) and the Committee has done a great job in a 5010 really complex and thorny, potentially controversial area. In that respect also I think the way that the Council of Ministers have been able to respond to that through the Minister for Justice, who I ______1880 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

have also found to be very collegiate and collaborative, certainly in dealing with legislation in the Branches, I think all those things coming together will make a difference. But it really does show how much we need this Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Committee 5015 to continue doing the work it is doing, because these issues have been, some of them, identified before so it is going to take keeping an eye on over the period of time. But it is very good that this stuff will be advanced with the review reporting in only a few months’ time. I think that is largely to do with the good solid base of the Committee’s work, so well done, thank you for providing that redress and opening up for the industry. 5020 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 5025 The preliminary point I would like to make is that in those three decades since the Clothier Report, we should all acknowledge that the legal profession in the Isle of Man has mushroomed in size and somebody should put that on record, and I am doing that. We have now got many more advocates on the Isle of Man than we had three decades ago. At the beginning of elections in the Isle of Man we used to have elections on several days because there were not enough 5030 advocates to help us with the process of elections. Now we have got hundreds of advocates working from the Isle of Man, and that should be put on record because it leads to substantial export revenues for the Island in the services sector, and it is important to say that and not only leave the bad stories. I am, like many of you here, inundated with constituent issues and more general all-Island 5035 issues from the other side, but I also think it is important to celebrate the success over those three decades of the new lawyers and the new firms. It is a place where lots of young people can be in their career very successfully on the Island, and I can think of lots and lots of examples of that, some of whom were very disappointed to read what was being read in this Report, so they are very considered about it. 5040 The second point I wanted to make, and I hope the Committee will take this in the right spirit, but part of the issue with the Law Society’s disappointment just before Christmas was that they felt that their submissions were going nowhere for a couple of years because they were not being published. So I would like us all to think about when we do committee work, might it be better to actually publish on receipt the evidence that is submitted from people so that we do not end up 5045 with backbenchers getting pestered, or even Ministers getting pestered, to actually say, ‘Where are our reports going? Is anybody reading the reports that we are submitting?’ And so on. Because the only question we can ask of a committee is, ‘When will you report?’ It might be better for actual transparency in that process and that might have minimised some of the frustration that was held during 2018-19, even 2020, as this process … It is only a small point, but it is something 5050 that we can all reflect on. The other point is that we can make anecdotal submissions about what legal services users believe, but I do not think as yet we have actually systematically surveyed legal services users, and that is a hell of a challenge to put to the Council of Ministers in this independent review; but I am a firm believer in evidence and there might be lots of people out there who are really happy with 5055 the service they had from the legal community. We have not as yet fully explored that. It was beyond the possibility of the Committee. It is not a criticism of the Committee. You had lots of evidence, you had lots of submissions, but it is not the same as a stratified random sample. It is just a small point. Also the fourth preliminary point is just that we have to look at ourselves as well as the Law 5060 Society when we make suggestions about how we could have done things over the last decade better. So, for instance, I was a founding member of the reconstituted Legal Aid Committee 10 years ago. We have not exactly made great progress in terms of legal aid transformation over that last decade, which a lot of the Law Society time will have been sucked into dealing with that ______1881 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

sort of issue. Likewise, more recently, with Public Defender Units. So sometimes we have to look 5065 at ourselves when we offer criticism of other people, because this independent review has got massive challenges for the next six months, and there are lots more challenges behind that to do with the way that the legal system works in the Isle of Man. In terms of the three themes that the Chair so eloquently laid out, in terms of the first two, qualification and practising and so on, I just wanted to put down the position that I hold, I believe, 5070 which I am sure the independent review will consider. My two points, which I have discussed at great length over the last 10 or 15 years, are that we first of all have to maintain standards in the legal services community; and, secondly, we have to make sure that we do have a body of Manx law where we need to have Manx law. We need to accept that you can be a Deemster, for instance, not necessarily being completely imbued in Manx 5075 law, because a Deemster profession is about weighing up the different positions you have from different sides. But in certain areas of law you do need to have the Manx Bar, so we have got to make it right, that we make sure that we do actually acknowledge what Mr President put, which is, ‘No legal system in the Isle of Man: no need for us,’ to be frank. So there is that perspective as well. So I am pretty happy with those two themes, those two perspectives. 5080 The one I wanted to raise is the same one that other people have been focusing on, which is Recommendation 9. I think the words in the Council of Ministers’ amendment need to be read very carefully. So basically the Council of Ministers has agreed that there is an inherent conflict in the dual roles of regulator and representative body and would support further consideration of this matter. This matter should be considered by the review so, to me, what they have actually 5085 put down there is that there is still stuff to look at in this perspective. And why might that be? Well, if we look to Scotland, in Scotland the Scottish Law Society actually has the regulator as a committee of the Law Society under statute. It is an independent committee, it operates independently, but it is a committee of the Law Society of Scotland. In Northern Ireland, the Law Society of Northern Ireland is still both the regulator and the 5090 representative body. This has been reviewed over the decades and there is research and findings that suggest it has to be thus in Northern Ireland to achieve the critical mass of a professional body. So to my mind, the independent review needs to look at that evidence and that analysis and it needs to be considered further. Perhaps the Isle of Man needs to look to Scotland and Northern 5095 Ireland rather than to England and Wales. So, as the Law Society put it in its submission to Council of Ministers in February, the Society suggests that it is not practical for the Committee to continually compare regulation of solicitors in England and Wales by the Solicitors Regulation Authority, because that regulates around 55,000 solicitors, with the Isle of Man Law Society, which regulates 246 advocates. Then they go on and they basically say, in the conclusion of that 5100 paragraph which is right near the end of their submission, the Isle of Man is a small but pragmatic jurisdiction. Let’s come up with small, appropriate, pragmatic responses, given the nature of the Isle of Man, which meet the inherent conflict objectives but do not actually end up with something that we cannot possibly sustain. With that, Mr President, I applaud the Council of Ministers and the Minister for Justice for 5105 working so closely to end up with a series of recommendations, and what is absolutely crucial now is for this independent review to reconsider the long list of issues that need to be considered very carefully, and then we need action to actually take things forward. Thank you.

5110 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Quine.

Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. May I too start by thanking the Committee for their diligence to their task and the hard work which they so evidently put into compiling their Report?

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5115 Although I speak as a layman, I can say with certainty that our Manx legal system forms one of the many integral parts of our Manx identity and thereby, and without question, is one of our enduring strengths. This is something which was always championed by the Island’s most distinguished advocate, Sir James Gell. I welcome the comments from the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson, when she 5120 makes reference to the fact that the framework of the Island’s legal services is long overdue for reform and her assertion that such reform must therefore continue to ensure that the work of our practising advocates should be of the highest standard. Indeed, Mr President, I have received correspondence from a constituent who is employed in the legal profession and who makes that very same contention. I am therefore pleased that the 5125 Committee in their Report have identified such a continuous improvement programme which will thereby ensure the competency of all who seek to practise law. Therefore, I am pleased that, having reviewed the Committee’s Report, the Council of Ministers have taken a pragmatic approach to it which they have highlighted in their response with a series of amendments I can fully support. 5130 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: The Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.

Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. 5135 I rise and find myself concurring with the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. Hon. Members, we have all had some pretty harrowing emails over the last few weeks concerning the legal process. I have had a number of other people contacting me directly about the system. Their concerns include adverse possession, the lack of understanding or non- consideration by advocates regarding the mental capacity of certain individuals. It is clearly set 5140 out in the 1996 Mental Health Act, the requirements that should be observed. I am told of problems with the Land Registry of proving ownership of a property, despite the fact the owner having deeds to show that this is indeed the case. Hon. Members, the common denominator in all these issues is members of the public being sucked into a legal battle through no fault of their own. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The side with 5145 the deepest pockets wins; the side that does not have deepest pockets loses all – and literally can lose all. To add insult to injury, the lack of recourse to justice or a totally independent review of the conduct involved with the whole process is sadly lacking. The disciplinary tribunal certainly needs abolishing and a complete open and transparent independent body put in its place. Let’s not be stonewalled by the legal profession, because they are particularly good at doing 5150 that. There is serious work now required in conducting this review, and I would completely concur with the Hon. Member, let’s get it done by December of this year. Hon. Members, this affects real people and real lives. Hon. Members, I will be giving this my full support. Thank you.

5155 The President: I call on the mover to reply. Mrs Poole-Wilson.

Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you to all Hon. Members who have spoken in the debate. 5160 I sense the full support for the Committee’s work and that is greatly appreciated; and that the Court as a whole is behind the direction of travel and the desire to now see a review and reform progress. So I do not feel I have a case to make, as it were, if I were standing in a different type of court. I would just like to reflect on some of the contributions though, if I may. Firstly, to thank my seconder, Mr Robertshaw, who I think was spot on when he moved a 5165 motion to create the Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee. And there is a lot to do. I am privileged and pleased to be able to chair this Committee and I hope the work that the ______1883 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Committee has done so far, and I hope will continue to do in the future, will really, as Mr Perkins has referenced, make a difference on so many levels to people’s lives, but to the robustness of our system and the strength of our economy and future. 5170 I think he and others have reflected on the point of time, and I agree. These things take too long. I think what is different now going forward is that we do have executive responsibility and we have a Standing Tynwald Committee to provide parliamentary oversight, but we must progress now with action. So thank you to him. Also, it was my omission not to reflect, of course, on the Clerk to the Committee, Mr Roger 5175 Phillips (Two Members: Hear hear.) and I have found his insight, advice, support and unwavering ability to answer my endless questions of huge value, so I would like to personally thank him as well. I would also like to express again my great thanks to Council of Ministers and, in particular, the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs and the Minister for Policy and Reform. It has been a very 5180 constructive engagement. We have been able to understand and discuss the issues, and he is correct. We broadly agree on our direction of travel, and I am glad that we have been able to have a constructive debate here today that focuses on the next steps and action. So I welcome that engagement and that collaboration. I also absolutely, as others have said, welcome the suggestion of bringing forward the deadline, which I think speaks to the urgency that the Committee does 5185 believe applies in this situation. I would like to thank Mr Greenhill for his support; and Mr Shimmins, Hon. Member for Middle. He spoke on a theme that Mr Perkins touched on as well. There are real concerns from individuals. The Committee did not publish individual submissions, because for the obvious reason that where they link to particular matters that are ongoing it is not appropriate for us to do that. 5190 The Committee also recognises that people will often look to the Committee to try and change their situation, and I feel so sorry that I find myself saying over and over again, ‘I am so sorry, I cannot interfere in your individual case.’ ‘I cannot interfere in a matter before the courts.’ But the theme is that people have these concerns, need better support, need to have more transparency and clarity about the system and how it works. Because perception is all here as 5195 much as reality, and so this is why it is important. And absolutely, the situations of some individuals, it is really difficult to read about and to realise the situation that has transpired. But I hope this wider review and reform will ultimately speak to improvement for those people who have raised their hands about their concerns and for people in the future. I would like to thank Mrs Lord-Brennan again for her fulsome support. She, too, touched on 5200 the reform of the Advocates’ Disciplinary Tribunal and the Committee strongly agrees and we look forward to seeing progress now – long overdue progress. I am just thinking about whether I have left anybody out, I do not think so … I would like to thank the Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas, for his comments. He rightly has referenced the growth in the profession, which is something I touched on in my opening 5205 remarks; and in fact it was seen as a problem in 1990 that we were not going to be able to keep pace with a growing economy based on financial services. Hon. Members, that is true, we have grown; but let’s not, as I put it, rest on our laurels. Let’s recognise that if we are bringing forward new areas of growth, if we are investing in an Economic Strategy for the Isle of Man, we absolutely need to be front and centre to make sure that all of 5210 our services step up to the plate; and that we can attract high-calibre businesses of substance to drive forward our economy because they know there are people on the ground here who are expert and can be trusted and are well-regulated to provide that advice. So those who spoke about moving forward and it being in the interests of the profession in the long term, so we move forward with prosperity, they were absolutely right: prosperity for the legal services market and 5215 for all of us. I think Mr Thomas also touched on the issue of standards and of training, and I would agree with him. I do not think there is anything in our Recommendations, our Report, that suggests that we are about a dilution of standards. On the contrary, we are about making sure we have a robust ______1884 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

legal services system. I would say that, again, if we do not keep pace with our neighbouring 5220 jurisdictions, if we do not look at changes like the Solicitors Qualifying Examination, we are in danger of getting out of step. We are in danger of shutting people off from opportunities, including people who may not, for whatever reason, have been able to get a degree but who absolutely, through an apprenticeship scheme or otherwise, can demonstrate their quality and calibre to join the legal services industry. Indeed, in his evidence before the Committee, the First Deemster did 5225 talk about the fact that at one time we did have an apprenticeship system on the Isle of Man, and there are very experienced advocates even today who joined the profession through that route. So let us not confuse good standards with modernisation and improving access overall to the profession. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The Committee and the Council of Ministers agrees on the principle of separation of regulation 5230 from representation. Mr Thomas made points about Scotland and Northern Ireland. Obviously, different jurisdictions do look through different lenses, but I would suggest, having read the Bain review into the regulation of the legal services in Northern Ireland, that there are particular issues in that particular part of the United Kingdom, not least about perceptions of political interference with regulation. So there were very particular issues that were borne in mind when bringing 5235 forward an approach. It is not true to say either that it is as simple as the Law Society being the regulator and the representative, because actually they have an Ombudsman facility as well. So there are models that exist that speak to the particular needs of an area, but the principle must be right. I would just like to quote from the Clementi review that said the particular relevance in 5240 determining whether regulatory and representative functions need to be separated, we need to bear in mind:

(i) that the regulatory arrangement chosen should promote the public and consumer interest; (ii) that it should promote competition; (iii) that it should promote innovation; and (iv) that the regulatory arrangement should be transparent.

Hon. Members that is exactly what we need for our legal services market for the future. Finally, I would like to thank the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Quine, for his support; and for the support, also, from Mr Perkins. 5245 I think one more thing that I overlooked to reference in Mr Thomas’s remarks was the contrast between the role of a Deemster and the role of an advocate. Deemsters make law, Hon. Member. The idea that they would not be in a position ultimately to pronounce with confidence and clarity on a decision in our courts, that then influences the state of our Manx law, seems to me something that we should not suggest is an issue in this Hon. Court. 5250 So the point being that we recognise that people with sufficient experience, competency and skills can master the differences in our law; and, in order to make sure that we can retain our unique legal Manx system, we should do everything we can to facilitate those who have the skills, experience and competency to be able to join our profession, to be able to work in legal services and for there to be good, transparent oversight about how they deliver their particular part in our 5255 legal system. With that, Mr President, I beg to move.

The President: Hon. Members, the motion is set out at Item 6. To that there is an amendment to a number of the recommendations. 5260 If the Court is content, I will put the amendment to the recommendations en bloc. (Several Members: Hear hear.) Thank you. Putting then the amendment moved by Mr Harmer. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I put the motion, as amended. Those in favour say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes 5265 have it. ______1885 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

7. Tynwald Management Committee – Third Report 2020-21: Tynwald Honours – Report received and recommendation approved

Mr Speaker to move:

That the Tynwald Management Committee Third Report for the Session 2020-21: Tynwald Honours [PP No 2021/0052] be received and the following recommendation be approved:

That Mr A.L. Ian Cottier be awarded the Tynwald Honour for his public service and charitable work on 5th July 2021.

The President: We turn now to Item 7, Tynwald Honours Report. Mr Speaker to move.

The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. On to a far happier subject now. The ‘Tynwald Honour’ is the highest honour which the Isle of Man can bestow. There is no 5270 expectation that the award be made annually. It is awarded only to those individuals who have made an outstanding contribution over many years to one or more areas of Manx life. Hon. Members can see the full criteria for the award in paragraph 6 of the Report. In light of the agreed criteria, your Committee has resolved to award the Tynwald Honour to Mr Ian Cottier, in recognition of his public service to the Isle of Man, particularly in the areas of 5275 education, music and the arts, and his long-term voluntary work in the third sector. A biography of Mr Cottier and his contribution to the Island can be found in the Report; however, I would like to briefly highlight to this Hon. Court some of Mr Cottier’s achievements which led the Committee to its decision. Born in Port St Mary in 1936, Mr Cottier is a proud Manxman who has contributed in many and 5280 varied ways to the Island. He will be well known to many as their former headmaster at the Douglas High School and St Ninian’s High School, where he was a strong advocate of the Manx language and culture and orchestrated the introduction of Manx lessons for pupils in years seven and eight. Since his retirement, Mr Cottier has dedicated a large proportion of his time to volunteer work, 5285 and he has been a volunteer steward for the Friends of the Gaiety for over 30 years. He has also been a long-term supporter and volunteer for both the Manx Blind Welfare Society and Care in Mann, and has also been a volunteer driver for Isle of Man Hospice and the Salvation Army. Mr Cottier is probably best known for his long-standing involvement in the brass band scene in the Island, particularly as presenter of Manx Radio’s Time for Brass programme, having 5290 presented more than 2,000 editions of this programme, and is the longest-running brass band radio presenter in the world. Mr Cottier also served as a lay member on the Isle of Man Government Planning Committee for 13 years, with his final term ending just last year. As a former Chair of that Committee, and I know there are quite a few in this Hon. Court today – the other veterans of that post – I know that 5295 they, like me, will have had their grammatical education advanced as well as having benefited from his insight into planning matters. More information on Mr Cottier’s career and significant contribution to the Island can be found in the Report before you. Members were circulated in confidence about this proposal, so they could submit to the Committee, in private, any comments they may have. I am glad to say that no negative comments 5300 and plenty of positive comments were received. Hon. Members, I am sure you will agree that Mr Ian Cottier would be a most worthy recipient of the Tynwald Honour. It is now necessary for Tynwald Court to decide whether the Honour should be bestowed on Mr Cottier, all being well, on Tynwald Day and in the Royal Chapel at St John’s. I commend him to the Court 5305 I beg to move the motion standing in my name. ______1886 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Several Members: Hear, hear.

The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker.

5310 Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. I am delighted to second the motion. And as another former Chair of the Planning Committee I, too, experienced Mr Cottier in fine form, albeit perhaps it was not so much my correction of grammatical errors, although that seemed to be reserved particularly for many of the planning officers (Laughter) but it was certainly for his masterclass in terms of Manx pronunciation which 5315 he was truly excellent in. I think that speaks very much about who Ian Cottier is. I think the Report in black and white is very compelling in its own right, and it is a good summary, but it does lack a little bit of colour about the individual. I think anybody who has met Ian and who knows him personally, will see him as a giant of the Island and somebody who I am certainly very proud to know and to consider as a friend, having worked for three and a half years 5320 alongside him and seen him in operation. My observations of Ian in action were that he was robust; he was fair and balanced; he was hugely respected; always professional and well-prepared. And the respect in which he was held was illustrated by his leaving do, which I know Mr Perkins had the privilege of being at in the restaurant in Port St Mary – which was the only place it could possibly have been held, Port St 5325 Mary, if you know Ian’s views on life (Laughter) – and it was attended by not just fellow Committee members, some ex-chairs, but also a wide range of planning officers as well, who clearly held him in very high esteem, and it was a real tribute. I judge people by how they leave a situation and to me that was a great testament to who he is. I have also had the privilege of knowing him through his involvement in the brass band scene, 5330 particularly with the Rushen Silver Band. I am aware that not only is his record with Manx Radio exemplary, but he has had a huge off-Island impact in terms of his brass banding contacts and things he has influenced. I know when he was a deputy head in the Sheffield area, he restarted one of the major brass bands in that area, which is still going; and his contact book is hugely impressive in brass banding. 5335 The Report touches on his community and third-sector involvement, which is still going, and he is certainly north of 80, which is a great example for us for all of us about what you can do as you become wiser and more mature in years. I have got absolutely no doubt he must have literally impacted tens of thousands of people through his educational career, and I know the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office employee colleague who 5340 drafted the report was in trepidation as to, when she showed the Report to Mr Cottier, whether she had got all her grammar and spelling quite correct! (Mr Robertshaw: Did she?) I believe that she did I think actually, Mr Robertshaw, yes. So, to me, the Tynwald Honour is a great thing for this Hon. Court, and it is something I would hope that we can continue to present and bestow down the years. I think it is also a great thing 5345 for the Isle of Man and it enables recognition of special contributions. So in commending Mr Cottier’s nomination, I ask myself, why am I doing that? And, in simple terms, it is for his contribution over time; it is for the breadth of his contribution; and he certainly satisfies the criteria that are absolutely clearly laid out in the Report of being selfless and outstanding. I believe that Ian Cottier represents everything that this award looks for. 5350 And with that, Mr President, I commend him to this Hon Court. Thank you.

A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge. 5355 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President.

______1887 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

I am not sure if I am the only Member in here that had the privilege of having Mr Cottier as my headmaster, and I can honestly say he was a true headmaster! But obviously I have come into contact with him in later years, and certainly since I have had the honour of being in this hon. 5360 place, Mr President. I too totally agree that there is nobody more fitting; and certainly the contribution he gave to education and the futures of young people that went through his school, and the opportunities that I am sure many have had, thanks to him being an absolutely excellent headmaster. When I did meet him, when I had become an MHK, I was not sure if it was because he remembered me 5365 for being called into his office one day, or through my family with regard to the brass band circuit because we were quite heavily involved in that. But I cannot think of anybody more deserving than Mr Ian Cottier. Thank you, Mr President.

5370 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Quine.

Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. As another of Mr Cottier’s former pupils at St Ninian’s High School, may I echo the sincere comments made by my hon. friends Mr Speaker; the Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker; 5375 and the Member for Onchan, Ms Edge; and say what a befitting reward it would be for a fine and very proud Manxman. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Maska. 5380 Mrs Maska: Thank you, Mr President. It is a great pleasure today to witness this proposal. I came to know Ian Cottier through my time on the Planning Committee, and during that time I came to respect him absolutely for his wisdom, his eloquence, his understanding and knowledge, and his capacity to listen and engage 5385 in a process that is very tricky at times, but impacts on people’s lives in a major way that can actually change their lives. His willingness to think outside the box, but follow policy, was inspiring. I am also aware of Ian’s generosity of spirit, not only in this wide – and, witness today, his educational role; but in his quiet, considerate contributions to charitable works across the Island over many years. 5390 Ian’s musical talents and expertise are also well known and have been evidenced today and in the Report, for which I thank the Hon. Members of the Honours Committee. But he is also well known for his long and dedicated support of the arts, and years of volunteering –quietly – as one of the Friends of the Gaiety. His work connected to Sail Training for young people offered opportunities that some young 5395 people and those with disabilities would never otherwise have been afforded. I would thank him for that because I know, again, that has brought experiences that are incomparable to what you can do in life; and for some young people it has, again, changed their lives, having experience on ships like the Francis Drake and other vessels. He had a vision and I thank him for having that vision. 5400 Last, but not least, he has a charming sense of humour, which he brings to everything he does; and he is also a great family man. So again, it is a great pleasure that I have today to support this proposal. Thank you, Mr President.

5405 The President: The Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.

Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President.

______1888 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

As the third Chair of Planning that has served … no, has worked with Mr Cottier and experienced his eagle-eyed and razor-sharp wit, I fully endorse the award that is being proposed 5410 for him. I would just pick up on the sailing aspect. I mean, that is one thing that has not been widely mentioned here today. He put a lot of effort into bringing young people into the sailing world, and I happened to bump into him once in Ithaca, one of the Greek Islands! (Laughter). We knew that somebody from the Isle of Man was there, this great big Manx flag was being flown, and of course 5415 we walked into the nearest bar and lo and behold, (Laughter) it was Ian Cottier holding forth, trying his ancient Greek on some of the people that were assembled. But it does give me great pleasure to endorse the award. It could not go to a more deserving person. Thank you, Mr President. 5420 The President: Mr Speaker to reply.

The Speaker: Well, Mr President, how do I follow that? I welcome the positive comments from Hon. Members in respect of the character and the 5425 qualities of Mr Cottier. It is certainly clear, the esteem that he is held in, the advancement of knowledge he has brought to so many, whether formally or informally – and I think we need to find out a little bit more, Mr President, about what that meeting was about between Ms Edge and Mr Cottier in his office! (Laughter). But what he has brought to so many, with his trademark sense of humour, which has been much commented on. 5430 Mr President, quite what his late wife, Linda, would have made of these comments, I leave to those who knew her to interpret and be the judge of. But speaking to Mr Cottier after the Order Paper was published and he knew this motion was on the Order Paper, he was humbled. He was humbled and incredibly proud to have been nominated for this especially Manx award for this special Manx individual. 5435 I beg to move, Mr President.

Several Members: Hear, hear.

The President: Thank you. 5440 Rules require me to put the motion to the Court. (Laughter) I am sure such is not really necessary, but I put it nonetheless. Those in favour that Mr A L Ian Cottier be awarded the Tynwald Honour for his public service and charitable work on 5th July 2021, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

8. European Union and Trade Act 2019 – Food Information (Amendment) Regulations 2021 approved

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:

That the Food Information (Amendment) Regulations 2021 be approved [SD No 2021/0088] [MEMO].

5445 The President: We turn now to Item 8, the first of a series of orders and regulations. European Union and Trade Act, and I call on the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture, Mr Boot to move.

______1889 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. Down to more mundane business. The Regulations before the Court today make amendments 5450 to the Food Information Regulations 2014. The necessity for these amendments is twofold. Firstly, in order to ensure that food is correctly labelled as to its allergen content; and, secondly, to maintain alignment with the UK and EU food labelling enforcement requirements necessary for continued trade. People with a food allergy or intolerance can experience an allergic reaction, even from very 5455 small amounts of a food ingredient. Symptoms of an allergic reaction can range from mild symptoms such as a rash, to more severe symptoms including anaphylaxis. Therefore, it is extremely important that consumers are provided with accurate information about allergic ingredients in products to allow them to make safe food choices. To provide for this requirement, the businesses that pre-pack food, for example a sandwich 5460 sold in a supermarket, must already clearly label them with all of the ingredients. Allergic ingredients must stand out from other ingredients, such as by using bold text. The amendments made by these Regulations will require a cover labelling for food, pre-packaged for direct sale. These are foods that have been made and packed on the same premises from which they are being sold. A packaged sandwich made by staff earlier in the day, for example. 5465 The Food Information Regulations 2014 also enforce certain EU provisions regarding food information. This includes where the country of origin of a food is given and it is not the same as that of its primary ingredient. The country of origin of the primary ingredient must also be declared so that consumers are not misled. The EU has recently produced further details regarding this requirement, and therefore the 5470 2014 regulations need updating to ensure that these requirements can be enforced and trade in these food products continue. These Regulations will amend the 2014 regulations to make provision to enforce those labelling rules by enabling an improvement notice to be served on any premises found to be contravening the requirements. The necessity of these amendments is also being used as an opportunity to correct a number 5475 of typographical cross-referenced errors in the 2014 regulations. Mr President, I beg to move that the Food Information (Amendment) Regulations 2021 be approved. Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins. 5480 Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson. 5485 Dr Allinson: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to thank the Minister for bringing these Regulations forward, which not only provide more information for customers, as he said about the provenance of food but, more importantly, more information for those who have food allergies so that they can be protected 5490 against unintended ingestion of those. I certainly support this coming forward and I hope the whole House does. Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper. 5495 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. My reading of these Regulations is they are seeking to implement what is referred to as Natasha’s Law in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is bringing forward their regulations to have effect from 1st October later in the year, I believe. So this seems to be the Isle of Man ______1890 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

5500 actually taking a leap forwards, as it were, ahead of the UK. So really, I would just like some confirmation of that from the Minister that that is what is being done here. And, secondly, why is not taking the opportunity to take the win on this one? It is not very often we get some really good news coming out of the Isle of Man Government and I think when we do have good news like this, saying that we are taking the lead, we are actually improving 5505 protections for Manx citizens and something which will have a direct and beneficial impact on their lives. Why aren’t we shouting about this from the rooftops? Thank you very much, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. 5510 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Just two very brief questions. The first one is that the memo seems to suggest that there have been typographical errors in the regulations since 2014. Has that caused any issues, any problems with them? 5515 And, secondly, can we expect lots of these types of regulations now or is there provision for ambulatory reference? So as things change across, we do not actually have to see these regulations each time.

The President: I call on the mover to reply. Mr Boot. 5520 Mr Boot: Thank you, Mr President. First of all, I would like to thank Dr Allinson for his remarks. This allergen regulation is long overdue and addresses issues with food labelling on the Island. Mr Hooper refers to October 2021, and actually this aligns with the UK’s introduction, so we 5525 are pre-empting that. Obviously, we are not ahead of them, we are just moving to align at the same time. Mr Thomas, with regard to issues in the 2014 regulations, I am not aware of any errors that have caused problems in that timescale, but it is always good to address these issues when an opportunity arises. We are not really anticipating any frequent amendments to these Regulations, 5530 so at the moment there is no ambulatory provision. Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move.

The President: I put to the Court the motion at Item 8. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

9. European Union and Trade Act 2019 – Water Pollution (Bathing Water Standards and Objectives) Scheme approved

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:

That the Water Pollution (Bathing Water Standards and Objectives) Scheme be approved [SD No 2021/0086] [MEMO].

5535 The President: Item 9. Again, I call Mr Boot to move.

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. Hon. Members may recall that in December 2019, this Court approved: ‘A strategy for the adoption of the 2006 Bathing Water Directive Standards in the Isle of Man’. This Court also 5540 approved the recommendations set out in that strategy that my Department commence the ______1891 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

development of a Manx-specific environmental quality standard for Isle of Man waters. These standards were published in a public consultation which ran from July to October 2020. The outcome of this consultation informed the drafting of the Water Pollution (Standards and Objectives) Scheme 2020 for inland and coastal waters, which was approved by this Court in 5545 December 2020. It has also formed the basis of the Water Pollution (Bathing Water Standards and Objectives) Scheme 2021 laid before the Court for approval today. This Scheme sets out a sampling regime to monitor designated bathing waters and produce bathing water quality data; how to assess bathing water quality data to classify designated bathing waters as meeting the quality standards as 5550 ‘Sufficient’, ‘Good’, or ‘Excellent’; and the water quality objective for such designated bathing waters to meet the ‘Good’ or ‘Excellent’ classification by 18th September 2021, the end of this year’s bathing season. The quality standards have been tailored to the Island’s needs based on recommendations by consultants and are in line with both UK and EU standards. Such quality standards have also been 5555 used to inform the production of my Department’s policy for the designation of bathing waters in the Isle of Man, which has been laid before this sitting. Further to this policy, my Department has considered applications from a number of the Island’s local authorities for designation of bathing waters based upon the applications submitted by the local authorities, dispersion modelling supplied by Manx Utilities, and the monthly bathing 5560 water quality data collated and analysed up to the end of 2019, the last bathing season during which samples were taken for the full season due to the disruption caused by COVID. Four beaches were identified as meeting the ‘Good’ or ‘Excellent’ bathing water classification and accordingly designated as bathing waters for the purpose of this Scheme. A monitoring calendar is being prepared to sample and assess the quality of bathing waters on 5565 these beaches on a weekly basis rather than monthly data used at present, in accordance with a strategy agreed with Tynwald in December 2019. The weekly data will also allow DEFA to work with local authorities and other stakeholders to identify and address any quality issues which may emerge, to improve the consistency of each beach’s designation. This bathing water quality data will be used to create and update the bathing water profile for each designated bathing water. 5570 The bathing water profile will be published on the Department’s website and have links to it printed on the bathing water signs for each designated bathing water. The bathing water profile will allow bathers to have confidence in the bathing water quality of these designated bathing waters, while also enabling my officers to continually monitor and investigate any changes to bathing water quality. 5575 The end of the current bathing water season, the latest available bathing water quality data, and that available for up to the last three bathing water seasons, will be reviewed by my Department. This review will consider the continued designation of these bathing waters and any other bathing waters that local authorities have applied for designation during this period. This review will also enable my Department to determine whether or not the designated bathing water 5580 beaches meet the bathing water quality, objective of ‘Good’ or ‘Excellent’ as required under the Scheme. By approving this Scheme today, Tynwald will be establishing a high standard for our bathing waters to the benefit of the public health of swimmers on those beaches. Mr President, I beg to move the Water Pollution (Bathing Water Standards and Objectives) 5585 Scheme 2021 be approved.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Perkins.

Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. 5590 I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Barber. ______1892 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Mrs Barber: Thank you, Mr President. This is a topic that we have had quite a lot of interest in over the years, as the Environment 5595 and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee, and obviously this is something that does affect us across the whole Island. I just wanted to dig a little bit deeper into the comments just made by the Minister and the details with the policy around that only the designated bathing waters will be monitored for compliance against the standards outlined in the Scheme; and there are only four bathing waters designated. 5600 So some of those beaches where we have had concerns and raised them, such as Peel and Laxey, will not be monitored now. I would like to understand that a little bit more as to how that progresses us and how we then add further beaches into the Scheme; because, ultimately, I would like to get to a position where every beach on this Island is a designated bathing water. I want to understand how that process will work and how this actually progresses us, if all we are doing is 5605 designating bathing waters in areas we have already succeeded in and not, seemingly, worrying about those ones where we have clearly got some concerns. So I would be grateful if the Minister could give further information about that, Mr President. Thank you.

5610 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Harmer.

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. I welcome the standards that we have been doing here; it is something that I have campaigned on that we needed for our Island and it is really important. Obviously, what makes it even more 5615 important and, really, taking the point that Mrs Barber said around actually it is not just what we designate, the bottom line is in Peel and in Laxey, people are using those beaches. I have to say walking around sanitary products and things like that is not great. For me, it is of absolute national importance that this is escalated. We have waited and waited for 30-40 years and I would just say to Manx Utilities … ‘Let’s get this done as quickly as we can.’ 5620 I know there have been difficulties, but it just highlights it is important that this is needed for the whole Island. I do think it is an excellent step forward in terms of raising standards, but we now need to incorporate other beaches as well across the Island. Thank you, Mr President.

5625 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to welcome aspiring to the 2006 Standards and this initiative by the Department. But, similar to Mrs Barber, I have concerns about the beaches now removed and obviously that 5630 concerns Laxey. While the issue of sewage treatment is being addressed, it could be many years before that is resolved for Laxey and Baldrine. But in terms of the bathing beaches, previously the Department monitored monthly and anybody visiting any of our beaches could see the classification of whether it was ‘Good’ or ‘Excellent’ or ‘Poor’ on the Department’s website. Now, while it is welcome that the official bathing beaches will be monitored weekly, so any 5635 areas of concern can be flagged quickly, Laxey has a thriving community and it is attracting people from all over the Island to the various cafés, pubs, restaurants and other initiatives within the village. It concerns me greatly that people will continue, hopefully, to visit Laxey and continue to bathe and use the water for various kayaking and other sports. But we will not know apparently how poor the condition is at times. 5640 I wonder whether the Department would continue, even monthly, monitoring of the water so that any incidents of huge concern could be flagged up to the community, or is that something that he has been in conversation with any other local authorities about as a service? I think that, in terms of public information and transparency, is there going to be any signage to say, ‘This is not a public bathing beach’? I would hope not. ______1893 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

5645 I think that the public deserves clearer information as to when it is safe, and that there is some underlying monitoring going on of the non-official bathing beaches, so that come the time, as Mrs Barber said, how will other bathing beaches – which are, but not officially – ever become official bathing beaches if the monitoring does not take place? Thank you, Mr President. 5650 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I will be voting against this motion because Peel and Laxey are not included. People are 5655 swimming and kayaking, children are playing, lots of people do this in Peel and Laxey. I went into graphic detail about what they are playing in, but it is just not acceptable in 2021. Not monitoring these beaches feels completely wrong, and removing the monitoring from these beaches does not remove the problem, Hon. Members. This feels like a somewhat cynical move to distract attention from the problem and the lack of progress. 5660 There is a saying which I very much support, which says: ‘What gets measured gets done.’ Of course we should be measuring this; of course we should be publishing this. It is inappropriate and wrong that Peel and Laxey are not on this list. We should be monitoring and publishing the results. That is what will drive change. Hon. Members, I would urge you to vote against this motion. It should come back with Peel 5665 and Laxey on it next month. (Several Members: Hear hear.) Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

5670 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Two very brief points. The first one is that, it might just be me, but I can see clearly the policy of the Department in respect of this on our internal Board Papers, but I cannot see it on the Order Paper. So, has it actually been published on the Tynwald Order Paper? If it has not, we need to address that, it seems to me, because there has been reference to it being published. 5675 The second brief point is, I associate myself with the remarks from Mrs Barber and Mr Shimmins. I think I made those same points in the debate about the way that surveys and samples can be abused, and the way that being in line with standards can be abused. Ultimately, we have to ask ourselves questions about the water off Peel and the sense to which it is different from the water across Dublin Bay and the water in Laxey, and the sense it is different from the 5680 water in Millom, where I was brought up, just a few miles across. I am troubled deeply by this approach.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

5685 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I was going to say the same, actually. There is no way I am going to support this. I think I have in previous iterations because otherwise people will say, ‘What? You are not going to support increased quality for bathing water standards?’ But –

5690 Mr Boot: Mr President? Could I –

Mrs Lord-Brennan: I will not give way, Mr President.

The President: You will give way? 5695 Mrs Lord-Brennan: No, no sir. ______1894 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The President: You will not? That is your right.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: No sir, thank you. No sir. 5700 Mr Boot: Can I clarify a point, Mr President?

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Well, no, I am just going to get to my point. I think there is an element of smoke and mirrors around this. If you are excluding some of the 5705 worst affected beaches and bathing areas then, at best, it is selective, isn’t it? So I think we cannot, in all good faith, sit here and think that this is fine. So I agree that you cannot really manage what you do not measure. So on this occasion I am just going to listen to what other Members have said. I agree with Mrs Barber, Mr Shimmins. It is not acceptable that we are in this situation and we are kidding 5710 ourselves by putting these sorts of things forward and not dealing with the bigger issues. (A Member: Hear, hear.) So I am not going to support it. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 5715 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I, too, will not be supporting this today. I find it unbelievable that, obviously –

Mr Boot: Would you allow me to interject? (Interjections) 5720 Ms Edge: I haven’t started yet!

Mr Boot: I think it would be useful to have a clarification at this stage.

5725 The President: It is up to you, Hon. Member, entirely in your gift.

Mr Boot: Thank you, Ms Edge. Mr President, I think there is a misconception here that the Department is no longer going to monitor the beaches that are not designated. This scheme is about designating beaches that local 5730 authorities have asked us whether we would designate. All the other beaches that we have monitored over the years will continue to be monitored, including Peel and Laxey. The information on those will continue to be available on the website and if the local authorities want to engage, then they can get engaged in a designation. Thank you. 5735 The President: Thank you. Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 5740 I am not sure, whenever I have gone down to a beach I have thought, ‘Oh, look at the website first’. That is what concerns me. The Minister seems to be focusing and concentrating on a website. But what I am concerned about is if there are environmental or public health issues on any of these beaches how, if a visitor… Hopefully we will be welcoming them back to the Island at some 5745 point. How would they be aware that there was an issue on any of these beaches? The Minister says go to a website. I do not believe, whenever I have been on holiday, I have done anything like that. There needs to be a way of indicating this.

______1895 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

But my bigger concern is with regard to our UNESCO Biosphere and whether we are complying with everything in accordance with the UNESCO Biosphere, if we are making changes like this. 5750 Obviously I know the legislation was changed and we seem to be getting standards which are less than the European Union, etc. So I am really concerned. I certainly will not be supporting this unless I see some good answers from the Minister today, as certainly we could have public health issues on the two beaches that have been mentioned previously. 5755 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. 5760 I was brought to my feet by the remarks of the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, that what gets measured gets done, and often that statement would be true. In this particular situation, it is very different. We know what the solution is for both Laxey and for Peel. It is, quite frankly, the sewage treatment solution. That is not going to change, whether we have bathing water quality measures in those locations, it is not going to change as to whether they are classed 5765 as a bathing beach or not. It is going to be changed by Manx Utilities bringing forward a sewage treatment solution in both of those catchment areas. Manx Utilities is committed to doing that. It is a source of huge disappointment to me, as the current Chair of Manx Utilities, that it has been unable to do so, and to meet the Programme for Government commitment which was set out to have sewage treatment in place across the whole 5770 Island by the end of this administration. I think all Hon. Members know the reasons why we have not been able to achieve that, but fundamentally we have not been able to yet get an agreed solution in either Peel or Garff – and Garff includes the whole of Laxey Bay, both the settlement of Laxey and the settlement of Baldrine. Manx Utilities has brought forward two planning applications in recent time, and neither of 5775 those unfortunately has been able to get approval, for various different reasons. I am absolutely not going to criticise the planning process or those who participated in that. Manx Utilities needs to come forward with its revised plans – plans that need to be supported by the local communities. There is a process of engagement that is quite active, and I know the two Hon. Members for Garff are both heavily involved in that in their particular constituency, and doing a really good job in 5780 engaging with the local community and the Garff Commissioners who are also involved. And we have a similar situation in Peel. So Manx Utilities is committed to bringing forward proposed solutions for both Peel and for Garff with an intended planning application submission for February of next year in both of those areas. Clearly it will be up to the communities in those areas as to how they respond to those 5785 proposed solutions, but that is the way that this is going to be fixed. I would urge all Hon. Members not to vote against the motion in front of you in some sort of protest about the fact that there is not a sewage treatment solution in place in Peel or in Garff at the moment. You are not solving the right problem by doing that and you are causing some collateral damage elsewhere in what actually is a considered proposal from the Minister for 5790 Environment, Food and Agriculture. So please, what you can do is when Manx Utilities brings forward its proposals in due course, whoever the chairman of the organisation is at that time, give it support because it is so important. I totally agree with the sentiments that have been expressed here, that in 2021 the Biosphere nation is continuing to discharge raw sewage into the Irish Sea. It is not acceptable. I totally agree 5795 with that. But we started from where we started from, it is a difficult problem to solve, we are going to solve it, but the communities involved are going to have to accept that not all of them can get what they want. There is no perfect solution, and the main –

Mr Robertshaw: Can the Member give way? ______1896 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

5800 Mr Baker: No, Hon. Member. The reason that Peel and Garff were left to last was because they were technically difficult to solve. So there is a solution coming forward. It is going to go through the planning process, and I would urge in due course all Hon. Members to support it, because that is the way forward on this matter. 5805 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. 5810 I may have completely the wrong end of the stick on this. I completely understand the concerns that many Members have raised by the fact that certain beaches are not designated. But to come to the Order and the Order that is before us, within the definitions:

[the] ‘bathing water’ means any area of — (a) coastal waters; and (b) bathing territorial waters, listed or marked as an area of bathing water in any document or on any map published by the Department or its successor in title;

So as far as I gather, none of the actual bathing areas are actually set out and listed in this Order and so voting against this statutory instrument, I think, would be a retrograde step. What 5815 we need, for those of us who wish to add further beaches to the list, is to campaign in that direction and get beaches added to the list and added to the designation with DEFA. Now, that might mean questions and that might mean a motion in this place, but removing the framework by which designated beaches get their monitoring, in my view, is a retrograde step. I do have every sympathy with the fact that the policy at the moment does not encompass all 5820 the beaches that we would hope that it does. So I hope the message comes across loud and clear, but I do not see how voting against this motion takes us any further. (Interjection)

The President: Hon. Member, Dr Allinson.

5825 Dr Allinson: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would just like to thank the Speaker for that clarity, because what this Order is about is classification, (A Member: Yes.) and then allowing local authorities to apply for designation. It is not about testing regimes which are uninterrupted, as far as I can see. Water quality will continue to be tested, continue to be delineated. What this does is set parameters for what we now, as 5830 Tynwald, say is safe for bathing quality, and therefore actually by passing this Order we can raise the bar. This is the first step to actually set a boundary to say, ‘This is what we want to achieve, and therefore, this is where we should be aiming.’ So I would like to thank the Minister for clarifying that the testing regime will continue regardless of whether a beach is designated or not, and so with this Order there is the option to 5835 be designated in the future. Without this Order, we do not have any designated beaches full-stop, because we do not have that clarity. Could I also ask the Minister in his summing up to perhaps explain the situation in Ramsey, where we have one area of the beach which is not designated, and yet Manx Utilities have put a sewage treatment plant to serve that area? I would like to put it on the record exactly why that 5840 has not been designated as bathing water quality at the moment. But, again, why it can be in the future if we pass this motion. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Poole-Wilson.

______1897 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

5845 Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. I think what has just been referenced is important, that there is nothing in this Order per se which is problematic, but I absolutely hear the concerns that are being articulated about what we are doing to address the problem we face with quality of water. I suppose my question for the Minister in summing up is, because of the definition in here in 5850 the Order of bathing water, the designation point, and the reassurance that testing will continue for all waters, is there a difference in the standards to which the testing will operate? So if a bathing area is designated under this Order, if it is approved today, will that testing operate to higher standards than testing that continues with other bodies of water, which may not be designated under this Order? I think, for the sake of transparency and clarity, we need to 5855 be absolutely clear on that. But I appreciate that this Order itself is not problematic, it is how it is applied and what steps are taken to raise the standards across the Island which is significant, as others have said. Thank you, Mr President.

5860 The President: Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I am quite confused about a lot of this. My understanding is this all comes from the Bathing Water Strategy that was presented and approved some time ago. Inside that document Laxey 5865 Beach, for example, is listed as a beach that is proposed to be designated as a bathing water beach. So it is on the list of places to be designated. So I am quite confused really as to where the opposition to some of this is coming from. The Order itself does not list the particular beaches to be designated, as Mr Speaker has quite rightly pointed out; and, even if it did, surely we have to accept that the way these things tend to work, 5870 and perhaps a better way of working, is to adopt this minimum viable product route where we are saying, ‘Let’s –

Mr Shimmins: Will the Member give way?

5875 Mr Hooper: I will. Yes, I will very briefly.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you. The policy is quite clear, it states four beaches for testing: Port Erin, Port St Mary, Douglas and Ramsey. It does not state Laxey or Peel and, given that we know lots of people swim there, it 5880 seems very odd. That is the point we are making.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much for that clarification, Hon. Member. I think that is kind of my point actually. The Order itself makes no reference to that. The law we are being asked to approve makes no reference whatsoever to that. The actual Bathing Water 5885 Strategy that was approved by Tynwald makes no reference to that. So this is quite clearly the first step in a number of steps to be taken to improve bathing water quality around the Isle of Man; and, for whatever reason, the Department is starting with four beaches as opposed to starting with six beaches or eight beaches. Now, that may very well be an issue, that may very well be the wrong decision, but actually it 5890 has got nothing whatsoever to do with the Order in front of us. That is a policy issue that Members need to give the Department a bit of a kick on, by the sounds of things. But actually in terms of the Order we are being asked to vote on, what it is we are being asked to approve, it does not seem to bear any relevance to that. So maybe if the Minister could explain how all this fits together and what the Department’s 5895 plan is to get all of our beaches up to scratch, up to that standard, I think that would probably help things quite a lot. ______1898 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Sharpe.

Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. 5900 I also need a bit of clarity about this Order, as someone especially who swims at Laxey Beach and whose family swims at Laxey Beach – and, quite honestly, sometimes you wonder whether you are taking your life in your own hands. I just would like – and this is related to Mrs Poole- Wilson’s question – for the Minister to confirm to me that the water quality at Peel and Laxey will continue to be measured against the 2006 standards; and that there will still be a physical notice 5905 pinned on the notice board on the Promenade as we have had in the past, which gives you a weekly idea of what the water quality is. Thank you.

The President: I call on the Minister to reply. 5910 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It has taken a strange turn, really, because I thought we were following a strategy agreed by Tynwald and moving forward in at least designating some beaches and improving our testing regime. 5915 We have, of course, been testing beaches around the Island for many years, and we have quite a lot of data on some of those beaches. Some would at this moment be capable of designation to the ‘Good’ and ‘Excellent’ standards that we are adopting, not just ‘Sufficient’, but it does require engagement and work with local authorities to apply for the designation process. Referring to the individual Members: Mrs Barber, I think once again there is some 5920 misunderstanding in terms of the fact that we are just designating four beaches at present, because they are the ones that local authorities have applied for. They are the ones that we have got the testing data for, and we are able to designate them as their water quality is ‘Good’ or ‘Excellent’. Obviously that is subject to review on a four-yearly revolving basis. Mr Harmer made the point, and I think Mr Baker also picked this up, as MUA Chair, that whilst 5925 many of the beaches meet sufficient standards there are two areas in particular, Peel and Laxey, where we have no regional sewage treatment at present. That is not a defect of this Order; that is unfortunately a fact of life that we have no regional sewage treatment there. So, despite the fact that we obviously monitor those beaches, they will definitely not be capable of designation with the ‘Good’ or ‘Excellent’ standard that we are using under the 2006 Act. So we will continue 5930 to work with local authorities, and that includes Peel and Laxey, but other local authorities where beaches may well meet the designation standard, but they have not being applied for at present. I would just like to reassure Mrs Caine that no beaches have been removed from our testing and the testing that we have been doing will continue. On beaches that have been designated it will now be weekly and that information will be available on the website. The 2006 Act, or 5935 Standards, require four, testing monthly over the bathing season, and that will continue. But I am happy to reassure Members that if we have sufficient resource, we will move to weekly testing on some of the other beaches prior to any designation because I think the more information that is available to the public, the better. Mr Shimmins, I think there was some misunderstanding of what we are trying to achieve here. 5940 This is a step and a direction of travel that we have been trying to achieve for some time. At the moment it is only four beaches, but I think over a period of time we will end up with all bathing beaches designated and that will include Peel and Laxey, if and when we get the regional sewage treatment in those areas. Mr Thomas’s issues, I think I have addressed earlier; and Mrs Lord-Brennan would not allow 5945 me to interject, but I think there is some misunderstanding, I have just tried to explain that –

Mr Thomas: Can I just say one thing?

______1899 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The Minister: Yes, go ahead, please.

5950 Mr Thomas: It might be helpful for Hansard, but GD No 2021/0011, it is a Government document, but it does not appear on the Order Paper that was published – page 2. Thank you.

The Minister: Thank you, noted. 5955 Ms Edge was also concerned about the information that was available and that it was only available on the website. Well, designated beaches – and they will be obvious to visitors and residents – will have signage attributed to them which will be updated, but it will also refer people to the website where the information is readily available on all the beaches that we monitor. So yes, some people may not access that information, but it is available. A lot of the beaches 5960 around the Island, and that includes Laxey, at the moment have ‘Poor’ to ‘Sufficient’ and that information is available for people to assess and decide whether they wish to swim in that water. I thank Mr Baker for his clarification of the MU’s position. We all know that in this administration there have been several attempts to have treatment plants, both in Peel and in Laxey, but they have sadly failed. But I am sure in the next administration that will become a 5965 reality, because it is absolutely correct that we should not be discharging raw sewage in the sea at this point in the 21st century, or wherever we are. (Laughter). Well, in the 2020s anyway. This is not a vote on the roll-out of the regional sewage treatment. This, I would emphasise, is a step in the right direction in terms of that travel, that journey we have been on, where we were referring to out-of-date standards. We have now moved to the 2006 standards, as requested, and 5970 required by Tynwald. So I think it is a definitive move in the right direction, and I think voting this down today would be a retrograde step because as a Department we cannot improve standards on some beaches. It requires input from the MU, and we are working with local authorities to encourage them to come forward for designation. It is a co-operative situation between the local authorities who want to engage; and, as I said, there are some beaches that would definitely 5975 qualify and we can work with them and move them forward. I thank Dr Allinson for his further clarifications. He is correct that there is a beach in Ramsey that is not designated, but that is for the simple reason that we require four years rolling testing. Whilst modelling has taken place, at the moment we do not have that data available because a new sewage treatment plant has not been there for in excess of four years and fully operational. 5980 So that will come, and that will also apply to other beaches when they finally get their sewage treatment plants. Mrs Poole-Wilson, testing will continue to operate as it has always. There is no difference in the standards, we are working to the 2006 standards. We tested those standards and the test results are available on the website for the various beaches around the Island. I would like to move 5985 to weekly testing on all the beaches that have some recreational use, but there are resource implications and, obviously, if beaches are designated they will receive priority, because that is where people will expect the information to be available. So it is a step in the right direction, four beaches are being designated. The standard we are using is ‘Good’ and ‘Excellent’, not just ‘Sufficient’. It is sufficient in some jurisdictions in the 5990 European Union. I hope that, as we go forward, we will be able to engage with local authorities and work with the MU and designate more beaches; and at some time in the not-too-distant future have the whole Island up to the 2006 ‘Good’ or ‘Excellent’ bathing water quality standards. Thank you very much. 5995 The President: I put the motion, which is that the Water Pollution (Bathing Water Standards and Objectives) Scheme be approved. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it – Division called.

______1900 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

Voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 19, Noes 3

FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Ms Edge Dr Allinson Mr Shimmins Mr Baker Mr Thomas Mrs Barber Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Christian Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Skelly Mr Speaker

The Speaker: Thank you. 6000 I think some votes might have been missed, Mr President; but, in the Keys, 19 votes for, 3 against.

In the Council – Ayes 4, Noes 2

FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill Mrs Lord-Brennan The Lord Bishop Mrs Sharpe Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson

The President: In Council, 4 for, 1 against –

Mrs Sharpe: Two against! It has not taken mine. 6005 The Speaker: I do not think Mrs Sharpe’s vote was counted.

The President: I take it you voted against, Mrs Sharpe?

6010 Mrs Sharpe: I did.

The President: Okay. With 4 for, 2 against. The motion carries.

10. Highways Act 1986 – Highway Diversion (Footway No. 90, Ramsey) Order 2021 approved

The Minister for Infrastructure to move:

______1901 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

That the Highway Diversion (Footway No. 90, Ramsey) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0052] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: We move on to Item 10. Minister for Infrastructure, Mr Baker, to move.

6015 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. Footpath No. 90 runs from Claughbane Drive, C1265, between Brookfield Court and Kneale Court, Laurys Avenue, C317 in Ramsey. The footway is approximately 100 m long. The existing footway currently passes along the Kneale Court development. The diversion will take footway No. 90 around the perimeter of the Kneale Court development. 6020 The landowner approached the local authority offering Ramsey Town Commissioners the land between the footway and the edge of his land. As this would incur additional maintenance for the local authority, this offer was declined. The landowner approached the Department to request a diversion of the footway. The effect of the diversion would be that the land will become part of the gardens of Kneale Court. All work as a result of this diversion will be paid for by the landowner. 6025 The diversion will secure the efficient use of the land adjoining the highway. A notice of the proposed Diversion Order was put in the press and also displayed at either end of the affected section of the path informing members of the public where they could view details of the proposed diversion. Notice was also served directly on specified parties, notably the landowner and the local authority, Ramsey Town Commissioners. No objections to the proposed diversion 6030 were received. Under section 33 of the Highways Act 1986 my Department may make an order to divert a public highway. However, any such order cannot take effect until it has the approval of Tynwald. I invite Tynwald to approve this Order under section 33 of the Highways Act 1986. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 6035 The President: Hon. Member, Dr Allinson.

Dr Allinson: Thank you very much, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 6040 The President: I put the motion at Item 10. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

11. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 2021 approved

The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 4) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0097] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 11, the Minister for the Treasury to move.

6045 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order, which was made by me on 2nd March 2021 and which came into effect on 3rd March 2021, further amended the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 as it is applied to the Island in order to reintroduce the Manx Earnings Replacement Allowance (MERA) for three weeks from 3rd March to 23rd March 2021. ______1902 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

6050 As a result of this Order, to qualify for MERA during this third round a person’s latest period of unemployment must have begun on or after 3rd March 2021 and before 24th March 2021. Provision is also made in this Order to enable MERA to be paid at a daily rate for a part-week period at the beginning of an award. Mr President, the observant amongst you may have noticed that in previous sittings I have 6055 actually moved the No. 5 and No. 6 Order, and therefore these Orders have come out of succession. I apologise if any confusion has been caused. Although not the subject of this Order, may I also take this opportunity to confirm that this third round of MERA funding will end for all cases on 25th April, consequent on the lifting of all COVID restrictions in the Island. 6060 I beg to move.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Peake.

Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. 6065 I beg to second and reserve my remarks

The President: I put the Order at Item 11. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

12. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved

The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0100] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 12, Minister for the Treasury. 6070 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order amends section 30 of the Finance Act 1994 of Parliament, as it is applied to the Island, to substitute new rates of Air Passenger Duty for flights to destinations in Band B, where those journeys are made on or after 1st April 2021. 6075 There are two Bands that determine the amount of Air Passenger Duty that is due, and the vast majority of flights liable to duty in the Island fall within Band A – which would cover flights to the UK and Western Europe, for example. The rates for Band A journeys are unaffected. Band B involves destinations where the main or capital city is over 2,000 miles from London, and here the duty-rate for flights in the reduced class of travel is increased by £2 to £82, and by 6080 £4 to £180 if in the standard class of travel. In March of this year, the United Kingdom government published the Aviation Tax Reform Consultation, which it committed to publishing in the 2020 Budget. The consultation, in particular, considers the case for amending the Air Passenger Duty treatment of domestic flights and for increasing the number of international distance Bands. 6085 The United Kingdom government’s initial policy position is that air passenger duty on United Kingdom domestic flights should be reduced in order to support European and domestic connectivity following the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union. The UK government is also seeking views of whether the distance Bands, which determine how much Air Passenger Duty should be charged, should be amended to align with its environmental 6090 objectives. The consultation closes on 15th June 2021.

______1903 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The Treasury currently maintains its Air Passenger Duty laws in line with those in the United Kingdom; however, Air Passenger Duty is not a shared duty and there is no obligation to keep the laws correspondent with the UK. There are clearly potential impacts the proposed changes in the United Kingdom may have for the Island, including on the public finances, and indeed for the 6095 aviation industry that serves the Island. The Treasury will consider the proposals outlined in the consultation and liaise with Her Majesty’s Treasury as appropriate. I beg to move.

The President: Mr Peake. 6100 Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: I put the Order at Item 12. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have 6105 it. The ayes have it.

13. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved

The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0091] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 13, Minister for the Treasury.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order amends the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018, as that Act has effect in the Island to make amendments relevant 6110 to the Northern Ireland protocol. Although the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man are no longer bound by European Union law in relation to customs, the United Kingdom agreed that Northern Ireland would continue to apply European Union rules to goods, therefore resulting in a need for some legislative changes to deal with these differences. 6115 The amendments provide for a duty to be charged on non-qualifying Northern Ireland goods moved from Northern Ireland to the Isle of Man, where the main purpose of the movement is to avoid Customs Duty. This will not affect goods which are lawfully present in Northern Ireland and have not been subject to customs controls, or goods which have been processed in Northern Ireland. 6120 The amendments also make amendments to ensure the legislation works for the purposes of movements to and from Northern Ireland, and the Order also confers powers on the Treasury to make regulations for the purposes of this duty. I beg to move.

The President: Mr Peake. 6125 Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second.

The President: I put the motion at Item 13. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

______1904 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

14. Adoption of Confederation of Passenger Transport Code by Bus Vannin – Debate commenced

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to move:

That Tynwald is of the opinion that Bus Vannin should adopt the non-statutory voluntary Code of Best Practice for bus operators, which was developed jointly by the Confederation of Passenger Transport and the UK Department for Transport as the industry standard for the use and acceptance of approved mobility scooters intended for footpath or pavement use only with a maximum speed limit of 4mph, in order to help people with mobility difficulties to use low floor buses that are adapted to carry wheelchairs.

6130 The President: Having completed the Orders, we find ourselves at Item 14 and the motion in the name of Mr Thomas. Mr Thomas, please.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 6135 Hon. Members, I beg to move that Bus Vannin should adopt the CPT non-statutory voluntary Code of Best Practice for bus operators to enhance and increase access to low-floor buses that are adapted to carry wheelchairs – buses of which we have a great number in the Island. Hon. Members should remember that this non-statutory voluntary Code of Best Practice for bus operators, the so-called CPT code, was developed jointly by the Confederation of Passenger 6140 Transport and the UK Department for Transport as the industry standard for the use and acceptance of approved mobility scooters intended for footpath or pavement use only, with a maximum speed limit of four miles per hour. Thus, this CPT code provides a useful mechanism to help Bus Vannin to make further reasonable adjustments to some of its bus services operating between some places to enable some disabled users, and the rest of us, to travel safely. 6145 A helpful user guide to the CPT code was prepared by the UK Department of Transport in 2015, and that is available and provides the briefing that readers of Hansard will find, to understand a bit more about the CPT code as it is presented to this Hon. Court today – https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data /file/879218/Mobility_Vehicle_Users_guidance-document.pdf 6150 Minister Norman Baker, across, launched the code there in 2011, so it would be truly wonderful if our Minister Baker can launch its use here too. The UK’s Minister Baker, across, said, and I quote:

This is a very good initiative. When I’ve looked at customer practice, on scooters it’s not very good. The picture you get has been higgledy piggledy, and we’ve tried to make some sense of it. We want users to have confidence that a type 2 scooter will be okay on public transport and if they have a type 3, it probably isn’t okay. For public transport operators, bus in particular, they want to carry passengers and not be in a difficult situation where they can’t take one of the vehicles in question. I want to have a kitemark system, so we don’t have the embarrassment either by bus users or bus drivers – we’re not there but we’re working towards it.

Mr Baker said it was also the responsibility of manufacturers and retailers not to sell scooters which cannot be used on buses.

The department’s aim is to give passengers clarity over which scooters will be accepted on a particular operator’s bus, and I hope that this initiative will go some way to achieve that. Let’s hope this is the first stage of many for a better system for users and operators.

6155 That was true in 2011, across, and it can be true here from today in the Island.

______1905 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

The CPT code covers Class- or Type-2 mobility scooters, the small ones used on pavements, as I have said. Fortunately, this class of mobility scooter has actually been defined in Manx law for nearly three decades being covered in our Highway Code on pages 17 to 19 – https://www.gov.im/media/1349469/highway-code.pdf 6160 The Public Sector Equality Duty is very important in this, as are reasonable adjustments. The Public Sector Equality Duty is summarised on gov.im as follows:

When making decisions and exercising its functions, a public authority must have due regard to the need to:  Eliminate unlawful discrimination, harassment and victimisation  Advance equality of opportunity between people who share a protected characteristic and those who don’t; and  Foster good relations between people who share a protected characteristic and those who don’t

It seems to me that adopting this code today would be an excellent example of meeting that Public Sector Equality Duty; because, in fact, it is a perfect example of ‘reasonable adjustments’. The latter thing that I mentioned, the CPT code, which is before you today for adoption, is exactly 6165 the sort of thing that reasonable adjustments could be based on and would be defendable about. Of course I would welcome an amendment to take this forward further to establish a fair and reasonable process, to establish how the CPT code, once adopted, is actually applied in our Island. I am absolutely delighted that Mrs Christian, Mrs Poole-Wilson and Miss August-Hanson have been working with me and others on a proposal. Mrs Christian has actually made so much progress 6170 in a month that I want to applaud her and thank her in a public place, because it was only a few months ago that the Department was announcing in this Hon. Court that it has not adopted the code and has no plans to adopt the code until its buses can safely carry mobility scooters. With that, Hon. Members, I beg to move.

6175 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Poole-Wilson.

Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

6180 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. I should like to move the amendment that has been previously circulated to the Members of this Hon. Court – or is about to be circulated! (Laughter) I think it has been circulated by email 6185 earlier. I would like to make it clear from the outset that I do not question the motives behind the Hon. Member for Douglas Central’s motion. This is, as he says, an important issue. It is an issue that needs to be grasped as the Island catches up on addressing accessibility matters; and that is a journey, Hon. Members, that the Island started on somewhat later than neighbouring 6190 jurisdictions. Not surprisingly, we are not as far advanced as they are, but we do need to catch up. On any one day, an estimated up to 25% of our people are affected by some sort of mobility problem. For many, this is a short-term problem following some sort of mishap. For others, it is a long-term disability that means they have no choice but to use a wheelchair, whether powered or not. A further group of people choose to use a mobility scooter to help them get about when they 6195 cannot cope unaided. Mr Thomas has made it clear that he recognises that the larger scooters, which can travel on the road, form no part of his motion. We are talking here about the smaller scooter that can be used on pavements at walking speed. I should like to thank the mover for his work on this issue and for engaging with my Department 6200 through Mrs Christian, the political Member with responsibility for public transport; and to echo his thanks also to Mrs Poole-Wilson in her role as Equality Champion, Miss August-Hanson and

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Mrs Maska, all of whom engaged last week in particular at a meeting, but also a number of those Members did engage at length last month when Mr Thomas originally mooted that he may move this motion. 6205 At the meeting last week, which also involved senior officers from my Department, a great deal of progress was made. Whilst we are not yet of like mind, we do have a lot of common ground. But let me make it clear, Hon. Members, I am happy in principle to adopt the UK code with some sensible local changes to reflect the Isle of Man environment; for example, the code talks about what will happen if the bus that is in service is not a low-floor model. Thanks to this Hon. Court’s 6210 and Treasury’s continued recognition of the importance of bus services to our Island we are in the happy position of having only low-floor buses in our modern fleet. The United Kingdom, however, is well ahead of us in having all of its bus stops set at the level above road surface height which allows level boarding, and that is 180 mm for those who are interested in the detail. Yes, the bus can be lowered to reduce the gap if the bus stops are not set 6215 at that level, and the ramp can be lifted into place by the driver, but there are still too many stops where boarding is just not good enough. Hon. Members, particularly from rural constituencies, will be very mindful that some of our bus stops are literally pull-ins on the side of a rural road, with perhaps not even a footway by the side, and that does bring challenges for people with mobility issues to board. 6220 I have increased the budget and priority for this work so that the Department now plans to improve 50 stops a year. I intend to do more. So the code has to be amended to reflect this. I understand that the code was brought in in the UK after the vast majority, if not all, bus stops had already been brought up to that level. Because we have started on the journey later, Hon. Members, we are not in that position and it is a significant task across our Island to bring all 6225 our bus stops up to that level. So, Hon. Members, it is reasonable to say the code has to be amended to reflect this, and that has been my position throughout this. We could not simply adopt the code as it is lock, stock and barrel. However, I am not talking about a major rewrite here, just sensible necessary amendments to make the code appropriate for the context here on our Island. 6230 I intend to go further than that, though, Hon. Members. I am acutely aware that we need to make sure that this is not just a motion which is approved in this Hon. Court. It has to drive real action and change, and it has to be embedded in the way that the Department operates. So, Hon. Members, my intention is that the Department sets up a new steering group to ensure we drive progress on this issue. It will be chaired by the delegated Member for Public Transport, 6235 Mrs Christian. I very much hope that the Equality Champion, Mrs Poole-Wilson will accept my invitation to join it. We already have a passenger representative for bus and rail services who is part of the governance arrangements around the public transport divisional meetings within the Department. That is Mr Keith Watterson who, as many of you will know, has long experience both 6240 as a local authority member and as a member of the RTLC. I am keen for him to join the group to ensure that the voice of the passenger is heard. We will also be asking the Island’s third sector bodies to nominate an appropriate person to represent passengers with mobility problems. This approach will ensure that we have a strong and balanced governance framework to provide the necessary oversight. As soon as the group is 6245 ready, it will consult with the public about their needs and their expectations. Alongside this, Hon. Members, we have to consider wider safety and legal issues. This is not simply just about carrying mobility scooters. This is a far wider issue. As a public body, the Department has a wide-ranging duty to promote equality. As a bus operator, it has to keep its passengers safe and comply with the requirements of its insurers. Wheelchairs are carried facing 6250 against the direction of travel in a part of the bus which is specifically designed to restrain both them and their user in the event of an accident. Both the bus and the wheelchair are designed to standards that allow this.

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The intention is to carry mobility scooters in the same location on the bus. The code accepts that each scooter will have to be assessed to ensure that it is suitable to be carried, and issued 6255 with some sort of sticker or mark of approval in order to travel. The scooter will need to be able to get into and fit into the space in order that it can be carried. The code already allows for that. Local suppliers, I am sure, will be able to advise potential mobility scooter-users of which machines will be suitable. Our initial view is that scooters can be carried on low-speed routes. However, buses travelling 6260 to the south, west and north of Douglas all have sections of route that involve 50 miles per hour running. Our buses have, sadly, suffered at least one accident with a closing speed of over 80 miles per hour. Accordingly, we have further work to do on how we can safely carry scooters between towns. However, within towns we believe that we can make arrangements to carry scooters between suitable stops fairly soon, perhaps by the start of the next school year. In the longer term, 6265 this problem will be solved by the creation of new standards for bus and scooter manufacturers. As soon as our bus suppliers offer the facility to carry mobility scooters, then we will select those when replacing our buses. Hon. Members, in many ways my amendment goes further than the original motion. It certainly does not seek to undermine it and indeed, in my view, it builds upon it. It recognises that 6270 this accessibility issue is much wider than solely being about the use of mobility scooters. My amendment speaks to wider accessibility matters on our buses. This also brings in consideration of other conditions. My plan is to quickly move to a Manx code through consultation with user and passenger groups, to embed this through the new steering group and to drive forward on addressing important related issues, such as making the required changes to bus stops. 6275 Mr President, I beg to move the amendment standing in my name.

To leave out all the words after the words ‘That Tynwald is of the opinion’ and add the words: ‘that the Department for Infrastructure should review its current policies to ensure that as many people as possible are able to access its low floor buses; should consider the non-statutory voluntary code of best practice for bus operators, which was developed jointly by the Confederation of Passenger Transport and the UK Department for Transport; should consult on these issues; and that it should submit a report with recommendations to Tynwald no later than the October 2021 sitting of Tynwald Court.’

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to reiterate the Minister’s comments and also thank the mover for his work on this 6280 crucial issue, and for his collaboration with the Department. His hard work on this important issue is an example to us all. I am encouraged to see that the Minister has committed to finding the budget and increased priority with regard to bus stops, and making more of them suitable for wheelchair access to complement our fleet of low-floor-model buses. I feel that it is very positive that we are going to 6285 adopt the UK CPT code. However, as the Minister points out, we must make this fit for our Island and in particular the speed and safety considerations for urban routes. The safety of our passengers must not be compromised. This is paramount in my mind and that of the Department, Members and civil servants who are considering the practical implementation of these policies, whilst considering an inclusive approach with regard to our 6290 Equality duty to passengers with reduce mobility. Mr President, the Equality Act must be embraced and, as a public body, we do indeed have a duty to implement it. My personal thanks go to Mrs Poole-Wilson for her support and counsel, and I hope too that she will take up position in the steering group, which I shall be chairing, together with our passenger representative, Mr Watterson and the inclusion of the third sector to this group; 6295 alongside public consultation, which will ensure a complete and full report for consideration in ______1908 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th APRIL 2021

October leading to appropriate and inclusive changes to regulation. This steering group will need to have clear objectives to establish a clear picture of who our users are, what their needs are, and where they live and work, with a focus to remove the barriers to travel and ensuring that social impacts are addressed to inform policy development and service delivery. 6300 Overall, there are many positive areas within the CPT code, but it is important to inform this Court and the Members that the UK started at a very different position to us, in that their bus stops were already accessible when this code was adopted, and we are some way off being able to reach this same point. Nonetheless, our determination does not falter and while we improve our stops there could be some journeys that could be more accessible to more service users, 6305 particularly urban areas. We need to be proactive in communicating that to our service users and to encourage the use as such. Some people might question why would a mobility scooter need to ride on a bus in an urban setting, when they can ride on the pavement at four miles per hour? But I surely believe giving them the opportunity equally to be able to pop on a bus to work, a restaurant or place of culture 6310 from their home with friends, is what we should be striving for. I want to reassure this Hon. House, and the public, that the Department is committed to advancing equality of opportunity on public transport. Transport is for everyone. Transport affects all our lives. We use it to get to work, to access services and to take part in leisure activities. It supports businesses and is a key contributor to economic growth. As diversity in our society grows, 6315 our transport services must evolve to reflect all our differing needs. We need to be on the forefront of doing so. Mr President, I therefore beg to second the amendment.

The President: Mr Shimmins. 6320 Mr Shimmins: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I just want to ask the Minister for Infrastructure a question: when he said that the Department is keeping an eye on developments elsewhere and when available the Department will purchase buses which can safely cater for scooters, I am acutely aware that Bus Vannin will only purchase 6325 Mercedes vehicles and is wedded to that brand – and that is one of the reasons why we have fewer hybrid and electric buses, because Mercedes are a bit behind on introducing these new technologies. Will he confirm that if another manufacturer produces buses which can safely cater for scooters and carry them, that Bus Vannin will actually purchase them, regardless of the fact of whether it is a Mercedes or not? 6330 Thank you.

Suspension of Standing Orders to complete Item 14 – Motion lost

The President: Now, Hon. Members, the Court clock says eight o’clock and we are required to conclude business. Mr Hooper.

6335 Mr Hooper: Mr President, I would suggest, if possible, that we sit to continue and finish this motion this evening.

The President: Complete this Item? Well, that it is up to the Court. We are coming back tomorrow, that is for sure! (Laughter and Interjections) 6340 But, if that motion has been moved, do I see it seconded? It is seconded. Right.

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Two Members: Back tomorrow.

The President: I put it to the Court. (Interjections) 6345 Right, we will go to a division, 22 votes are required on a combined vote.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In Tynwald – Ayes 11, Noes 17

FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Ashford Mr Baker Mrs Barber Mr Callister Mr Boot Mrs Christian Mrs Caine Mr Hooper Mr Cannan Mrs Maska Ms Edge Mr Moorhouse Mr Greenhill Mr Quayle Mr Harmer Mr Quine The Lord Bishop Mr Skelly Mrs Lord-Brennan Mr Speaker Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mrs Poole-Wilson Mr Robertshaw Mrs Sharpe Mr Shimmins Mr Thomas

The President: Hon. Members, 11 votes for, 17 against. That definitely does not pass. (Laughter) So, Hon. Members, the Court will now stand adjourned until 10.30 a.m. tomorrow morning.

The Court adjourned at 8.01 p.m.

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