PAGE 1 OF RECORD VOL 24 (BOX 6)

EXTRACT OF EVIDENCE THE STATE VS N. MANDELA AND OTHERS ACCUSED NO. 5 – AHMED MAHOMED KATHRADA declares under oath MR: BERRANGE TO COURT:

My lord, although no. 5 is being called at this stage, it doesn’t mean to say that the accused who are earlier than he is in order, will not be called --- Yes.

EXAMINATION BY MR BERRANGE: Mr. Kathrada, I think you were born on the 21st of August 1929 at Schweizer Renecke? --- that is correct.

And I think it would be fair to say of you, that for the greater portion of your life as a juvenile and for the whole portion of your adult life, you have concerned yourself in the political sphere? --- that will be correct.

I think your first contact with politics came at a very early age Mr. Kathrada? --- that is correct. PAGE 2 OF THE RECORD And in 1940 at the age of 11, were you already taking part in political activities? --- I helped to distribute leaflets and I attended meetings as well as lectures.

And thereafter, did you get into contact with young Indian University Students who were closely associated with the Nationalist group of the Indian Congress.

And lateron, did you hear of an organisation of the young people engaged in political work? --- Yes, I …at that stage I quite often came into contact with the young Communist League which I joined.

That was in 1942? --- that is right. PAGE 5 OF THE RECORD – 12 lines down from the top of the page In 1946 the new leadership launched what we have been told, it was called the Passive Resistance Movement? --- that is right.

And this a movement against the land restrictions placed on the Indian people by the 1946 Ghetto Act --- that’s right - 2 -

That of course is not the passive resistance which have been referred to later on? --- No, no. This was in 1946.

This campaign lasted for about two years, and I think there were 2,000 Indians imprisoned? --- correct.

You left school in June of that year did you not? --- That is right.

You were the doing your final matric? --- correct.

And you left for the purposes of doing what? --- I left school for the purpose of working fulltime in the offices of the Passive Resistance Council.

And in December of 1946, at the age of 17, I think you served a month’s imprisonment in Durban as PAGE 6 OF THE RECORD a Passive Resistance volunteer? --- correct.

And thereafter, you remained fulltime in the offices of the Indian Congress until it was banned in 1954? --- Until I was banned in 1954.

And so far as the Communist Party was concerned, you remained a member of that until it was declared illegal in 1950, and you are a listed Communist. --- I am.

Now you heard evidence given this morning about your position in the Congress Movement by Mr. Sisulu. You do consider that you were a leading figure in the S.A. Indian Congress, were you not? --- That would be a bit flattering. I considered myself to be a leading activist.

And until when did you remain on the Executive of the Transvaal Indian Congress? --- Until I was banned in 1954.

And then perforce you had to resign? --- that’s right.

And thereafter you’ve held no Executive position at all? --- thereafter I was not allowed to hold any position in 39 organisations. - 3 -

PAGE 7 OF THE RECORD – about middle of page Mr. Kathrada you told us that you were born in Schweizer Reneke in 1929, were you brought up there until you went to school? --- Yes, until I was about 8 or 9.

And then when you went to school, where did you go to school? --- I had to come to JHB to school.

Why was that? --- that is because there were no schools in the country towns for Indians, and I was not allowed to attend either the European schools or the African schools.

How did that affect you? --- This was the first time that I consciously came into contact with the colour bar in this country.

Had you struck in your childhood in Schweizer Reneke? --- My childhood was completely free of any form of colour experience. My childhood friends were little white and African children.

And the people who were in your household and PAGE 8 of THE RECORD in your father’s business? --- Our house where I grew up and even till now, is situated where we have our immediate neighbours who are white. In my father’s shop there was one white shop assistant I can think of, and there was also an African bookkeeper.

Who brought you up? --- Like the rest of my family, and I suppose this position would have been with most the Platteland Indians,, the midwife when I was born, also my brothers, was a European woman, who was not just midwife, who was like a second mother to me, and I became very attached to her.

Known as your ouma I think? --- she was known as my ouma.

So you went to school at the age of 9? --- That’s right, but prior to that my father had engaged an African teacher who taught me at home.

At any rate, the impact of the colour bar, struck you very forcibly? --- It did. - 4 -

So that by the age of 11 you were distributing leaflets? --- To me it seemed very natural.

Now in 1951, I believe you enrolled at Wits.University? --- that’s right.

With the intention of doing a B.A. and obtaining a law degree? --- those were my hopes.

But you didn’t stay there very long? --- No I did not.

Why not? --- In 1951 after I was at Wits for a few months, I was elected by the Indian Youth Congress to represent it at a world festival of youth and students in Berlin PAGE 9 OF THE RECORD Now you say that you were asked to go abroad, and were you asked by the Students Liberal Association to do anything on their behalf? --- Yes, the Students Liberal Association asked me to attend a conference on it’s behalf of the International Union of Students.

How long did you stay in Europe? --- Almost a year my lord.

Did your visit to Europe make any impact upon you? --- ah …

Did you get a bit of a shock? --- To a non-European leaving S.A. and going to Europe it’s like entering a new world. I …my very first impression was when I saw at the airport in London Europeans scrubbing floors.

Anyway, you were able there to attend the theatre, ballet opera,? --- Well even to attend a restaurant. I PAGE 10 OF THE RECORD mean even to have a cup of tea in a restaurant.

That you can’t do here? --- It was the first time in my life that I could walk into a restaurant and have a cup of tea.

You could stay at a hotel and get into a lift, bus or train as you pleased? --- that was. - 5 -

Was that a festival in which there were people of only one colour or one race? --- There again the most striking thing for me at the festival was that, the fact that it was attended by 30,000 young people of all colours, of all religions, of different political views.

Even communists? --- A lot of communists, non-communists, anti-communists, from about – from over 100 countries in the world.

And I believe that you were the leader of the S.A. delegation? --- I was the leader of the S.A. delegation which consisted of 65 South Africans.

Men and women? --- men and women, here again we had young men and women of all races, Indians, Africans, Coloureds, Jews, Englishmen, .

With different religious beliefs and different politics? --- That’s right.

Did you notice any significant change in a certain individual there? ---Well, I wanted to point out to the Court, that PAGE 11 OF THE RECORD XXXX amongst the delegates or participants in the South African delegation, was a member of the Nationalist Party. A professional man from , who I understood for the first time in his life met a non-white other than his master in …

What happened then? --- Well, he confessed to me that it made a tremendous impression on him.

Now whilest you were there, I think you also visited the Auschwitz Concentration Camp, where as we all know several million people were put to death by the Germans --- That was in Poland. After attending the conference of the International Union of Students, I accompanied a tour of young people to the Auschwitz Concentration Camp. - 6 -

As a result of what you saw there did your group who went there take any resolutions? --- Well we were all shocked at what we saw at Auschwitz. We saw human bones, in fact, we walked on human bones, and these were the bones of what were once human beings. Jews and peope who opposed the Nazis. We saw lampshades made from human skins. We saw dentures from which the gold had been extracted. This made a tremendous impression upon all of us, particularly the South Africans, and this young Nationalist who was with me in Poland …

BY THE COURT: Well, I don’t think the Court is interested in the impression it made on others. It’s interested in the impression that it made on the witness Mr. Berrange --- No what I want to get out is what happened to him my lord.

Before the party left, did you take a pledge, because this is relevant? --- Before departing from Auschwitz we took a pledge to work to eradicate racialism wherever we found it PAGE 12 OF THE RECORD And is that what you have endeavoured to do throughout the whole of your life? --- Correct.

Now you also served on the Transvaal and South African Peace Councils, did you not? --- Largely as a result of the visit to Europe, I became more conscious of the necessity for world peace, and I served on the South African Peace Council.

Now did you curtail your stay in Europe? --- I did.

Why? ---At about that time in 1952, preparations were afoot in S.A. to launch the campaign for the Defiance of unjust laws, and I felt that my place was in S.A.

And this is commonknowledge, this campaign was conducted by the A.N.C. and the S.A. Indian Congress, and about 9,000 volunteers were imprisoned in different parts of the country for defying one or other of these laws? --- Quite right.

And you were amongst 20 men who were convicted for being organisers of this campaign? --- That’s right.

You were found guilty under the Suppression of Communism Act and you were sentenced to 9 mnths imprisonment which was suspended on certain conditions? --- Correct. - 7 -

PAGE 13 OF THE RECORD But speaking as a member of one of the minority groups what would you say about this policy which caused you to support it? --- As a member of a minority group in S.A. I had always believed that the future and security of my people depended upon the success of the policies of the A.N.C.

You linked the two together? --- That’s right.

You know that shortly in the years following the Nationalist Government, I have mentioned that merely to give a date my lord, there have been several incidents of anti-Indian rioting by Africans? ---Yes, I personally was present, in fact, I specially went down to Natal in 1949 during the anti- Indian riots there.

Yes? --- I was in Germiston as well as in Newclare, I think it was in 1960 or thereabouts, when anti- Indian incidents occurred though of a much smaller nature.

Yes, what I’m really concerned about Mr. Kathrada is what part did the A.N.C. leaders play in regard to endeavouring to quell these riots? --- I have witnessed in Natal particularly, European citizens inciting and egging on the Africans against the Indians, while police looked on.

And since then, has there been even closer co-operation between the Indians and the Africans? --- Yes, there has been. Again in Newclare and Germiston, those riots would have spread, had it not been for the timely PAGE 14 OF THE RECORD intervention of the A.N.C. together with the Indian Congress.

Now I think it was in 1954 Mr. Kathrada, that you were served with some banning orders? --- In October 1954 I was served with two banning orders under the Suppression of Communism Act.

What did that order you to do? --- The one ordered me to resign from and not to take part in the activities of 39 organisations, and the other prohibited me from attending gatherings. - 8 -

And I just want, before leaving this aspect about your own activities – do you remember the incident about the boycott of the school? --- Yes, at the end of 1954 the authorities announced the closing down of an Indian High School in JHB and it’s removal to Lenasia which is an Indian Group Area, some 20 miles out of JHB. At that time it was bare veld. The Indian community protested against the removal of this school and called upon the parents not to send their children to that school. In JHB the parents got together and formed an association …

Yes, what was your position on this? --- I was elected Secretary of the association which set up a private High School in JHB.

And to cut it short, I believe that during 1955 the Lenasia School managed to enrol about a dozen school children whilst the Central Indian High School had a roll of close on to 500? --- that’s right.

And how was this school run,? --- Do you mean from the point of view of properties?

No, from the point of view of the teaching style? --- Oh the school was run by a completely multi- racial teaching staff. I think it PAGE 15 OF THE RECORD was the first time in S.A. that we had a school where we had a staff of Africans, Indians, Coloureds and Whites. Of course, that didn’t make it very easy as far as the authorities were concerned. Everything possible was done to obstruct …

But XXXX so far as the school was concerned did it prove a success as an educational and sociological experiment? --- It was proved a great success.

I’m leading you through the incidents Mr. Kathrada about racial co-operation, because I want to know from you at this stage, do you still believe, and are you a firm believer in thinking that there is a possibility for racial collaboration and co-operation in this country? --- I very strongly believe that there is. I believe that it is the only solution to the country’s problems. - 9 -

And you would not join any organisation or embark upon any course of conduct which did not have that aim in mind? --- I would not.

Now during 1960, I think that you were detainedduring the state of emergency? --- I was ffom the first day to the last.

And in 1961 you were then detained under the … what was known commonly as the 12-day detention law? --- That is correct. I believe I was one of the first to be detained under the law.

And when you heard that the A.N.C. had been declared illegal in 1960, what was your reaction? --- I was greatly disturbed, when during the state of emergency we heard of the banning of the A.N.C.

Well you’ve told us that for many years, the African and the Indian Congresses had co-operated on PAGE 16 OF THE RECORD numerous issues which affected both XXXX races? --- that’s right.

And to your mind, what would the disappearance of the A.N.C. from the political scene mean? --- I believed that the disappearance of the A.N.C. from the political scene in S.A. would deprive the African people, or I should say all the oppressed people and the whole of S.A., of a most responsible, sober leadership.

And as a member of a minority group, where do you think your future lies? --- I have long come to the conclusion and so have the Indian people, that our future lies with the success of the policies of the A.N.C.

AND WHEN did you learn that Mandela had gone underground? PAGE 17 OF THE RECORD To use that expression? --- In the course of the preparations for the anti-Republican strike of 1961, I learnt that Mr. Mandela had gone underground.

What was your own personal reaction to this? --- I was very happy that Mr. Mandela had gone underground, because I believed that in the position in which our country found itself, the position of moving towards chaos, I felt that the country needed the leadership of men like Mandela and Sisulu, more than ever before. - 10 -

And Mr. Kathrada what about the A.N.C.? Did you also hear that that had gone underground? --- I had learnt that the A.N.C. had refused to disband itself, and was going to continue underground.

And did you welcome that as well, for the same reason? --- I did. PAGE 21 OF THE RECORD (4 lines from bottom of page) And I suppose thereafter, the existence and the objects of this organisation, that is the Umkonto We Sizwe were widely discussed? --- Yes, they prompted considerable discussion in our circles. PAGE 22 OF THE RECORD Did you encounter any surprise at these new developments? --- I should say hardly any surprise at the formation and its activities.

Had anything become increasingly clear by that time? --- As I think I indicated yesterday, it had become clear that the country was moving towards crisis, when violent methods of struggle had become inevitable, and therefore, there was no surprise at all at the formation of this organisation.

To what would you attribute the inevitability of this violent form of struggle? --- Over the years, particularly since the Nationalist Govt. have come into power, they have increasingly closed the doors of any possibility of a peaceful solution in this country. In other words, they have made the conventional matters of protest illegal and just about impossible.

And were conventional methods of protest being used at that time, what did that provoke as far as the action of the Govt. is concerned? --- It has been our experience that when non-white people resorted to, when I say conventional methods of struggle, I refer to general strikes and demonstrations, they were invariably suppressed by armed force.

And what was the general consensus of opinion, or what was the general agreement in regard to the Umkonto We Sizwe? --- It was my personal feeling and also the feeling of most of the people with whom I discussed the formation of this organisation that whilst persons such as myself would have reservations about it, I personally would do nothing to condemn its activities. In fact it was my feeling that should individuals approach me … - 11 -

PAGE 24 OF THE RECORD What do you believe in so far as the justification that people may have in resorting to violence? --- I have always believed that in the history of oppressed peoples struggling for their freedom, they have often justifiably, been forced to resort to violent methods of struggle.

And how do you relate that to this position or the situation in S.A.? --- In S.A. too. I believe that violence is becoming inevitable, and when the people resort to violent methods, they will be fully justified.

Because? --- Because of the actions of the Govt. in making other methods impossible. (end of page 24 12 lines from top of page( PAGE 32 OF THE RECORD Of course you know as politician, that over the years there have been violent outbursts in S.A.? --- that’s correct.

Places such as Pondoland and Zeerust, Sekukuniland? --- Yes.

The Paarl? --- Quite correct.

Would you think that these fit in with the classical description, or any description of guerrilla warfare? --- From my understanding there might be a suggestion that the struggles of the people in places like Zeerust, Sekukuniland, could be a form of guerrilla warfare, but its precisely those that strengthen my belief that it cannot be a feasible method, because of the severe revivals, if not for anything les else.

Now I believe that it was in August 1962, Mr. Kathrada, that you heard of the arrest of Mr. Mandela? --- that’s correct.

I take it to say the least, you weren’t pleased about it? --- I was most disturbed.

And what did you think should be done? You and others? --- It was my feeling that a campaign should be set afoot both in S.A. and abroad, to bring pressure to bear upon the authorities, to release him. - 12 -

And as a result of ghat was a committee set up? --- A committee was set up in JHB.

What was the name of that committee? --- The “Free Mandela Committee”.

And it was the committee which carried out a campaign? --- The committee carried out a campaign of propaganda and agitation, demanding his release.

And you served on that committee togeher or with other persons? --- That is correct.

And then in October 1962, Mr. Kathrada, I think you were served with a house arrest order inside (PAGE 33 OF THE RECORD) the Court where Mr. Mandela’s trial was being held. --- Quite correct.

And what did this ofder require you to do? --- Amongst other things, the order requirdd me to stay in my flat from the hours of 6.p.m. to 7.a.m. I think it was during the week days.

May we just shorten it, because we don’t want the whole terms of the order Mr. Kathrada. You were able to stay on your premises between 6.p.m. and 7.p.m. not to receive any visitors, to remain in the Magisterial district of JHB, not to attend political or social gatherings, to report to the police every day, not to communicate with listed or banned persons? --- Correct.

And not to enter factories, including printing works? --- that is correct.

Now what was your job at that time? --- I was a printers’ representative. The printing concerns, are regarded as factories, and I was prohibited from entering any printing concerns.

Let us be quite frank about this Mr. Kathrada, although you were working in a printer’s concern as a printer’s representative, I understand that you were a politician, and this work was purely ancilliary - 13 - to your political work? --- that’s quite correct.

You made an application to the Chief Magistrate to be allowed to continue your work, but this was refused? --- I made two applications which were both refused.

And how were you thereafter forced to carry on your business? --- I made the first applications to enter the printing premises which was turned down. I made a second application to enter just the offices of the printing concern, this was turned down. I ghen was forced to call the managers outside, and conduct my business that way. (PAGE 34 OF THE RECORD) Outside the … ? Outside the premises.

I don’t suppose you found that very satisfactory? --- It was most unsatisfactory.

So what did you think at the time, what choices were left open to you? Insofar as your business and your political work was concerned? --- I was more concerned with my political work than anything else, and these orders made it just about impossible to carry on with any form of political work.

So? --- I was at that stage, left with three choices.

Three alternatives? --- Three alternatives rather. (a) to give up my political work or to leave the country, or to carry on with the political work in the face of any dangers and risks involved.

By doing what? --- By going underground.

And I think its common cause, you decided on the third course? --- I did.

The third alternative. One of the primary reasons that made you take this decision, or would you tell his lordship what one of the primary reasons was that made you take this decision? --- My lord …

Remember that you told us thag you were concerned mainly - 14 - withworking amongst the Indians. --- I had been involved for many years in the political life of the Indian community, and felt that in recent years, the community had been facing or going through one of it’s grimmest periods, because of the implementation of the Group Areas Act. I also knew that the community had resisted this Act, quite successfully over the years, and I felt that this resistance had to be stepped up, and I felt that I could make a XXX contribution towards keeping this resistance alive. (PAGE 35 OF THE RECORD) And then at the beginning of 1963 Mr. Kathrada, I think the intention to introduce what is commonly known as the 90 day detention law was announced? --- That is correct.

As a result of past experience, what was your view, how would you be affected, in consequence of this made law? --- As a result of past experience, I was of the view that I would be amongst its first victims.

I did put some of this in cross examination, I think it was to Mr. Swanepoel, I’m not sure, but I want to cut it very short. I think that you had at that time been arrested on something like approximately 17 occasions since 1946? --- Well, not arrested, chafged. I was arrested many more times.

I’m not including charges for just putting up posters or distributing leaflets and that sort of thing? --- That’s correct.

And I think that you were acquitted on nearly every charge, except five. --- That’s correct.

The charges in which you were not acquitted, were those which you have already told us. That was your participation in the Resistance Movement in 1946, your participation in 1952 in the ? --- Correct.

And then at Uitenhage, what happened there in 1954? --- I was charged and convicted for being in the Cape Province - 15 - without a permit. All Indians wishing to travel from one province to another, are required to carry permits.

Yes I know, and in 1955, you were convicted for entering a Bloemfontein location? --- Correct.

And in 1961 you were charged with contravening a banning order, by going to visit your mother, who at the time was ill? --- Correct.

That’s at Schweizer Renecke? --- Correct.

And you’ve taken a number of actions also, against the Minister and the police in regard to illegal arrest (PAGE 36 OF THE RECORD) made? --- Well, I have taken … yes.

And also against newspapers for defamation? --- Yes.

And you have on occasion recovered damages? --- I have recovered damages.

So with that history behind you, I take it that you felt pretty sure that once 90 day detention came into being, you would be one of the first? --- Quite right. (END OF PAGE 36 – 8 lines from the top of page) (PAGE 48 OF THE RECORD) – 4 lines from bottom of page It read as follows Mr. Kathrada “A few weeks ago that arch enemy of the Indian people, Dr. Donges, addressed an appeal to the Indian and Coloured people to stand together with the whites of S.A. against the (PAGE 49 OF THE RECORD) African people. There’s only one manner which the Indian people can respond to such an appeal coming from a Nationalist, for that matter, from - 16 - any white racialist, and that is to dismiss it with the utmost contempt. Coming from a man with the shameless record of Dr. Donges in particular, and his Nationalist oppressors generally, this appeal is to put it bluntly and simply, the height of cheek. Have the Nationalists become so depraved? Have they lost the habit of shame and human decency to even venture to make such an appeal? For who, if not the Nationalists, and all the Govts of white supremacy, and Herrenforchism(?) is responsible for the shameful and sorry plight that the Indians and all the non-white people find themselves in today? Do they expect the Indian people to forget so easily and quickly the “ … I can’t read it. The (something committed against our community by the Nationalists”. I think it’s the crimes, I can’t read it. Do they expect us to close our eyes to the cold-blooded robbery of our livelihood and lives carried on under the Group Areas Act? And afe we expected not to remember that the father of this piece of inhuman legislation, is none other than the same Dr. Ebenezer Donges. Are we now being called upon to stand with these criminals to defend the forced removal of our Mosques and Temples, our houses and our businesses, and to defend the merciless closing down of our schools, and the de-barring of our students from the open Universities? Are we seriously being called upon to defend Job Reservation and the restriction on our movements, from Province to Province? Mjst we defend a system which has relegated our people to a status of third-class citizens, when we are told in no uncertain terms, that under , the Indians will never attain voting rights enjoyed by the (PAGE 50 OF THE RECORD) whites of the land. Does Dr. Verwoerd want us to forget his outburst of barely twelve months ago ro so, when he declared that the Indians should be cared for the countries who are so concerned with their welfare. - 17 -

Stripped of the fancy work of Dr. Donges, about the beating of 5 million hearts as one, the Nationalist are appealing to us to defend and perpetuate our oppressions. We are now told to believe that it is not apartheid and white domination which are a danger to the Indian people, but the advanced aspirations of our fellow oppressed African people, towards freedom, and we are asked to stand with white South Africa against these. Let me say categorically and with all the force at my command, that not a single self-respecting Indian anywhere in S.A., will be bluffed by this sort of talk. It is not the advance of the African people that we have to fear and stand against. It is you Dr. Donges and Dr. Verwoerd and your Nationalist Party. It is you, Sir De Villiers Graff and your United Party. It is you, the white legislators who are the real criminals and the danger to our country. We know that you are now turning to us, because your world of apartheid is becoming smaller and smaller by the hour, because you have friends outside the ranks of your fellow white racialist South Africans, and because beyond the borders of this land, your policies and actions stink and offend the nostrils of the entire human race. So let it be made clear to you, that you will never succeed in leading a single Indian away from the path of freedom. You will not make us enemies of the African people. Our people have long decided that our destiny is closely linked with our fellow oppressed people. We have long chosen the path blazened by Chief Luthuli and , and , by Dr. Naicker. (PAGE 51 OF THE RECORD) and Dr. Darah. We know that ours is a path of bitter struggles, hardships, and sacrifice, but we are also convinced that come what may, this is the path to victory, this is the path to freedom and happiness, this is the one and only path that will bring about peace in the country and freedom for the oppressed masses” - 18 -

(PAGE 52 OF THE RECORD) But we are also convinced that come whqt may, this is the path to vicoty, this is the path to freedom and happiness, this is the one and only path that will bring about peace in the country and freedom for the oppressed masses. This is the path which will win for our country a place of honour, respect and equality amongst civilised peoples of the world. Through the seeming darkness and gloom we can already see the rays of sunshine and the dawn of freedom. Towards this certain dawn we will march together, together and in strength to happiness and freedom” Is that your … --- that is my task my lord.

MR. BERRANGE: Could we have the original exhibit please? Now I see attached to his exhibit there is some more typing which starts “this is the first of a series of talks on the Government Policy of separate development --- Could I have it?

Yes, I will pass it to you in amoment, I just want to get it on the record. And then there is another document which is headed “Flashes. Since the passing of ‘no trials’ law more than 150 people have been arrested and detained for 90 days”. Can you tell his lordship something about that? --- My lord it appears to me that the attached figures are also part of the broadcast programme I think I was, that part I was given to type, being my own broadcast.

BY THE COURT: Yes I mean, didn’t you draft the rest of it yourself --- I drafted the first portion.

And not the rest? --- Not the rest.

MR. BERRANGE: Now Mr. Kathrada, does that which you expressed (PAGE 53 OF THE RECORD) in R. 187 for this proposed broadcast, does this express your own views? --- that expresses my views. - 19 -

(PAGE 53 OF THE RECORD) You will agree, of course, that somewhat strong and immoderate language was used by you then? My lord, that unfortunately is my weakness.

You have told his lordship that you and others were indignant about this speech of Dr. Donges trying to get the Indians to leave the ranks …? --- Yes, we were most indignant. (PAGE 54 of THE RECORD) MR. BERRANGE CNTD. Mr. Kathrada, then I would like you to deal as shortly as you possibly can with the whole question of the position of the Indian Community in S.A which has caused you to come to the conclusion that you should devote half your juvenile and the whole of you adult life to working on their behalf? ---

The position is it not, Mr. Kathrada, that the first Indians as indentured labourers arrived in S.A in 1860, --- that is correct my lord. (PAGE 55 OF THE RECORD) At the instance of the Natal Government? --- My lord they were brought out to work on the sugar plantations of Natal at the instance of the Natal Govt, after negotiations with the British and the Indian Govts.

I don’t think we need go into detail. And later this flow of labour for the sugar fields slackened? --- That is right.

And then special legislation was passed to make their conditions, because they had bad conditions, more bearable? Qute right my lord.

And after this period of indenture had expired, what then happened as far as citizenship was concerned? --- Well they promised full citizenship and they were also promised pieces of land after that. - 20 -

And I think that during this period, this is historical, other Indian immigrants arrived who had an aptitude for trading and settled in various parts of the country? --- Quite right my lord.

Now in Nagal, let us deal with Natal first, as far as the municipal and the Parliamentary franchise was concerned, what happened about that? --- My lord, the Parliamentary franchise was taken away from the Indians in I think 1891, when the municipal franchise was taken away in 1924.

And in the Transvaal so far as citizenship rights were concerned? --- In the Transvaal the Indians were deprived of their citizenship right as early as 1885.

And what happened in so far as their freedom of movement and their right to trade and own and occupy land is concerned? --- In the Transvaal? (PAGE 56 OF THE RECORD) Yes in the Transvaal and in Natal. --- My lord, within the country itself ordinances were passed restricting the entry of Indian immigrants into the Transvaal for instance and as far as immigration into the country was concerned, this too progressively was made difficult, and by the 1913 Act, that is the immigration Regulation Act, just about completely closed Indian immigration into the country.

I see. And in 1948 XXXX as a result of legislation what happened so far as the Indian rights to marry is concerned? --- I don’t think it was 1948, but it was certainly after the Nationalists came into power, the Indians were deprived of the right to marry women outside of S.A., because they were prohibited from bringing those wives into the country.

So they were not allowed to marry women who were not S.A. citizens? --- quite right.

Now the S.A. Indian community was then in its 6th generation? --- that is correct. - 21 -

And so far as the overwhelming majority is concerned, have they got any more ties with Indian? --- Save for the cultural ties, the overwhelming majority have no ties with India.

And you have done some research, naturally, into this problem. You remember the Golden Jubilee issued of the S.A. Yearbook published in 1960. What did that indicate in so far as percentages are concerned of persons from different racial groups who were born in S.A.? --- I don’t remember the exact figures, but more or less the position was that 92. some odd percent of the African people of S.A. were born in S.A. and 90 percent of the Indians in S.A. were born in S.A., and 89. odd percent of the Europeans population (PAGE 57 OF THE RECORD) were born in S.A.

I see. So the Indian community has indeed come to accept S.A. as being its home? --- We are as S.A. as anybody else my lord.

Some 2 years ago do you remember the Prime Minister making any statement in regard to the Indians? --- I think I referred to that in the earlier document where … I don’t remember the exact words, but he said that the countries so concerned with the Indians should take care of them, or something to that effect.

Did he say anything about their being entitled to any rights? --- No my lord it has been made clear that the Indian community wouldnever be given … would never be given voting rights in this country.

Neither on the Parliamentary or municipal level? --- No.

There has been no pretence about that? --- There has been no pretence at all. In fact it has been made clear that the most of the Indian people could hope for in this country is the right to elect what they call an Indian Affairs Council with no powers whatsoever, or with rather very limited powers. - 22 -

I see. I think there was an attempt to do this in 195 .. 1946 was there not Mr. Kathrada? --- There was an attempt to introduce an Indian Affairs Council in 1946 but because of the complete boycott by the Indian community, this council was never put up.

So a boycott sometimes does play a valuable part in the political field --- In our experience, boycotts are a very important weapon in our struggle.

Now it is very often stated that Indians are mostly well-to-do merchants who are wallowing in luxury (PAGE 58 OF THE RECORD) can you tell us something about sociological surveys in regard to their financial position. (next portion left out)

And so far as the professions are concerned, what professions are virtually the only ones open to your community? --- Virtually the only professions open to members of the Indian community have been medicine, law and of course the teaching profession. As far as the others are concerned, as far as dentistry, for instance, is concerned, there have never been facilities in S.A. for Indians to train as dentists but there have been facilities for Indians to train as engineers, architects, etc., but here we come into difficulties with the customary colour bar where it was impossible to get apprenticed, and even if some were lucky to get apprenticed, after qualifying there was just no scope for these people, so virtually, as I said, the only professions open were these three.

And what about those who have specialised in gynaegology, or eye specialists, land surveyors and things of that sort. Have you come across those persons? --- As nimber of such qualified people happen to be among my personal friends. In fact some of them stayed with me at my flat while they were students. Two of them are gynaecologists. - 23 –

Well don’t go into details. What happened? --- They have tried to establish themselves in this country, but have failed. All those people I am thinking of have been forced to practice in distant places – I know one in Malaya, Kenya, Nigeria; in fact we even have a nuclear physicist, but there is no scope in this country.

Now is there a thirst for education amongst the Indian community? --- There has always been a tremendous (PAGE 59 OF THE RECORD) thirst for education.

And what efforts have the Indian community made in order to satisfy this? --- My lord, the majority of the schools, for instance – here again I will talk of Natal, where the bulk of the population is, have been buklt with funds provided by the Ondian Community, or on the pound to pound basis, where the Indians provide £1 and the State provides £1. Some years ago there were some figures available which showed that out of the 250 odd Indian schools in Natal, 220 were built by the Indian funds, or are State-aided.

And in the field of labour, what effect has the mines and Works Act of 1908 had? --- The Mines and Works Act which I think applied to the Transvaal made it impossible for Indians to do any type of skilled work on the mines, engineering, blasting, etc.

And the Industrial Conciliation Act? --- Well, as is well-known, under the Industrial Cinciliation Act there is provision for job reservation, and here too the Indians stqnd to suffer considerably, but my lord when it comes to the field of labour, here again as far as the Transvaal is concerned, there has been no opportunity, or very few opportunities for apprenticeship.

Yes? --- And that has effectively kept the Indian community out of such employment.

I see. And in the field of agriculture? --- In the field of agriculture the Law 3/1885 made it impossible for Indians - 24 - to acquire land in the Transvaal, so that they did not branch out into that field either.

And I take it the same thing applies to their endeavours to enter into industrial enterprise? --- Quite right.

For the same reason? --- Quite right. (PAGE 60 OF THE RECORD) And I take it that is the reason Kathrada why in the Transvaal at least the lives of the Indian community have been mor or less centred around commerce? --- That would be a very important reason why you find such a percentage of Transvaal Indians engaged in commerce.

I would like to deal shortly with the question of the implementation of the Group Areas Act, and I would like you to tell his lordship what the effect of that has been on the Indian community? --- My lord, it has always been our belief, my belief that the Group Areas Act was primarily designed to ruin the Indian community economically.

Yes? You remember the election manifesto of the Nationalist Party in 1948? I think you have made some notes about what was said there? --- If I may refer to some notes?

BY THE COURT: Yes. --- Yes my lord, the Election Manifesto of the Nationalist Party in 1948 inter alia said “The party holds the views that Indians are a foreign and outlandish element which is unassimilable. They can never become part of the country, and they must therefore be treated as an immigrant community”.

MR. BERRANGE CNTD. And that despite the fact that you say some 90% of them are S.A. born? --- In South Africa. - 25 –

And have you got a note also indicative of what the official attitude is towards the Indian community, of what was said by the Minister for Indian Affairs? --- Yes I have that. Before I quote that when I said that it is my belief that the Group Areas Act is designed to ruin the community economically, I had in mind what was said by (PAGE 61 OF THE RECORD) an inter-departmental committee on Land Tenure which was appointed by the Minister of the Interior in 1948. If I say read a paragraph from its report.

Yes? --- “There appears to be an ever growing belief in the public mind that the only satisfactory solution of the Asiatic question is repatriation, and that whatever is done by way of legislation shiuld be such as not to endanger the possibility of repatriation and deprive the public of one of its most deeply cherished hopes”. “This advance in its most advanced form reads ‘repatriation and failing which compulsory segregation, but boycotts to indice(?) repatriation’.

The idea being that the Indians should be boycotted in order to get them out of the country. --- Out of commerce, and then out of the country. The Minister of Indian Affairs, Mr. Maree, before he was appointed Minister of Indian Affairs, made many statements about the Indians, but the one which comes to mind is the one he made in Newcastle, as reported in the papers in 1956.

On the 22nd of June wasn’t it? --- 23rd June, reported in the “Natal Witness”. “After the effects of the Group Areas Act had been felt”, said the Minister, “Indians would be only too pleased to get out of S.A.”. That was the Minster of Indian Affairs.

Now I think it was about 3 years ago that the Nationalist Government, or the Government announced the failure of repatriation, and acknowledged then for the first time that Indians should be part and parcel of S.A.? --- That is correct my lord. - 26 -

And to that end the Indian Affairs Department was established? --- Correct my lord. (PAGE 62 OF THE RECORD) Now since this announcement, what in fact has happened, in so far as Group Areas is concerned which you believe is designed to ruin the Indian economically and drive them away? --- If anything, my lord, the implementation of the Group Areas Act has been stepped up considerably. So much so that many many hundreds of people have already been deproved of their livelihood.

Just shortly give some figures – in JHB, in regard to proclamation 153/56 which concerns the Western Areas, that is Newlands, , Newclare and Albertville, what has the affect been there? --- I don’t want to give the breakdown of the figures in each of the areas, I have them available, but the effect of Proclamation 153 of 1956 which related to Westdene, Sophiatown, Newlands, Pageview, Newclare and Martindale … not Martindale, there are 800 Indian traders, a number of Indians dependant on trade in one way or the other in those areas, 9000, stock is valued at R5,270,000 goodwill R2,900,000, furniture and fittings R526,000. I am not burdening your lordship with other details of the nett profits involved, valuation of property etc but it runs into many, many millions of rand, and there is no compensation whatsoever.

These people are all being uprooted? --- As I said, large numbers of these people have already been uprooted, and are in the process of being uprooted now.

I believe Pageview alone has got 4000 Indians that occupied this since 1886? --- that is right. In all these areas Indians have been there for many many years, 80 years, 75 years, 60 years.

And in 1962 was there another Proclamation - 27 -

(PAGE 63 OF THE RECORD) issued affecting other areas in JHB? --- Yes affecting areas such as Waterfall, Doornfontein, Bertrams, Jeppe, Marshall Town etc.

How many people has that affected? --- 400 Indian traders with 4000 dependants, and an additional 1000 flower sellers, industrial workers, waiters etc.

And there again does the financial loss run into … --- into many, many millions.

And the implementation of this type of legislation, is that taking place all over the country? --- It is taking place every month almost my lord, throughout the country, and the pattern is the same all over. There are very few Europeans, hardy any Europeans affected by the proclamation. The bulk of the people affected are always Indians.

And I take it … I have taken care Mr. Kathrada not to refer to what you in consultation have referred to as pinpricks. You have not mentioned the fact that they are not allowed into the same lifts or the same buses --- No I am not even mentioning that. From birth to death we suffer from those pinpricks.

And are those some of the things Mr. Kathrada, that have caused you to do what you have done, and to take up the issues that you have done throughout the whole of your life? --- that is correct. (PAGE 91 OF THE RECORD) By the say, yes, your oath was to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? --- I’m aware of that.

But when it comes to giving evidence which might implicate somebody either in this Court, or outside this Court, then you’re not prepared to give that evidence? --- I’m honour bound not to.

Honour bound to whom? --- To my conscience, to my political colleagues, to my political organisations to which I owe loyalty. - 28 –

(PAGE 91 OF THE RECORD) And what about being honour bound to your oath to the Almighty? --- I am not telling any lies.

You’re not honour bound to that are you? --- Well I don’t know if the police are doing the Almighty’s work. I am not prepared to give the police anything that might implicate other people.

Yes, Sisulu adopted that attitude in the box, and you’re doing the same --- Is there anything wrong with that?

Don’t ask me I’ll tell his lordship what I think about it in due course, but I’m telling you now, you’re adopting the same attitude as Sisulu. --- That’s obvious.

That’s obvious? --- Yes. (PAGE 92 OF THE RECORD) And therefore, you must concede, I am unable to test your evidence? --- That I am aware of.

So what’s the value of your saying you’re prepared to give your evidence under oath in order that the accuracy and the truthfulness of it may be checked and tested? --- His lordship will judge the value of my evidence, I hope.

What was that? --- I said I hoped it would be left to his lordship to test the value of my evidence.

When you say you’re honour bound to your political colleagues, did you say? --- To my political colleagues, to my conscience and to my political organisations.

Yes, and the political colleagues include the communists? --- Naturally.

And the political organisations include the Communist Party of S.A.? --- It does.

And you’re not prepared to give any evidence which might implicate any members of the Communist Party or the Party? --- - 29 -

I am aware that I have implicated myself to a great extent. I am not prepared to implicate anybody else.

And this political organisation to which you owe this loyalty, also includes the A.N.C. --- Yes.

And also includes the MK? --- If XX I knew anything about the MK I would not tell you.

You would not tell me --- Of course I would not. If the fact of it is to implicate anybody, I would not tell you.

Then how am I to test yourstory what you’re telling us? --- I feel very sorry for you Doctor, but I am unable to help you there. (PAGE 93 OF THE RECORD) I don’t need your sympathy Kathrada, but I just want to ask you …? --- Well you asked me how are you …

Yes, how am I to test your evidence? --- I’m afraid I can’t help you.

How is his lordship to test the accuracy of your evidence? --- I’m afraid I have no suggestions.

So isn’t if a fact, we can’t test the accuracy of your evidence? --- I’ll leave that to his lordship. (PAGE 122 OF THE RECORD) (end of page) BY THE COURT TO ACCUSED NO. 5: Just apropo of that (PAGE 123 OF THE RECORD) for my own information, whenever you’ve got these strikes, a very large proportion of the people who are told to strike, has to be forced to strike. Judging by what one reads in the newspapers, that for every one that wants to go on strike, there are a number who want to go back to work, but they’ve got to forcibly be kept from going to work. Isn’t that what happens? --- That has not been our experience. In fact, the experience of 1950, taught us that it’s precisely trying to picket that provokes the police to come and shoot. So that since then, whenever such strikes - 30 – were called my lord, the policy was to ask the people to stay at home peacefully, and that there be no picketing, because that would just bring in the police force.

And do you suggest that people do stay at home without picketing and without threats? --- That has been our experience my lord. I don’t say that a certain amount of picketing doesn’t take place. It’s very likely that it does, but we don’r ejy on that. YUTAR CNTD. Kathrada, let‘s come to a little nearer to home. Following the Pietermaritzburg Conference in March 1961, and prior to the proclamation of the Republic of S.A., the National Liberation Movement decided upon the stay away strike for the 29th, 30th and 31st of May 1961. Do you remember? --- I remember that such a decision was taken.

Yes, and is it not a fact that that was a hopeless failure? That stay at home strike? --- I don’t agree my lord.

And is it not a fact, in the light of what his lordship has said to you now that a number of Bantu, countless numbers were assaulted on their way to work, (PAGE 124 of THE RECORD) and many others were scared to leave because of threats? Is that not true, yes or no --- My lord, I can give this evidence on what I’ve heard. Unfortunately two weeks before the strikes, I was taken by Major Mr. Dirker and locked up for a month – so I was not in JHB. I wasn’t even agitating when the strike took place.

You say you weren’t at the Benoni massacre, the police saved you from being at the stay away strike, but do you see where else you weren’t – you were at none of the acts of sabotage --- No definitely not. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX - 31 -

No you weren’t on the train that went over that 26 foot rail, that had been loosened. You weren’t on that train by any chance? --- I …

Mr. BERRANGE: Has that ever been a suggestion here? ---I won’t adopt that answer.

DR. YUTAR (CNTD) We go on – “Freedom in our lifetime. To protest against this brutal murder and against the passing of the Suppression of Communism and Group Areas Act, the A.N.C. supported by it’s allies”, and your organisation is one of the allies, not so? --- The S.A. Indian Congress was one of the allies.

That’s right. And the Communist Party? --- And the Communist Party.

Because you belonged to 39 organisations, didn’t you? --- My lord I did not. That is one of the farcical things about these banning orders. I was banned from the majority of organisations which I did not even belong to. Some of whom I was opposed to.

“Declare June the 26th the National Freedom theme of S.A., on this day may unite hundreds of thousands of the four corners of the land … (quotes) … non-White people show their determination in the form (PAGE 125 OF THE RECORD) of a general strike. From that day onwards the words “Freedom in our lifetime” rang out from the mouths of millions of oppressed people”. Who gave the author the authority to say that this call rang out from the mouths of millions of oppressed people? --- My lord, is this a serious question, because this is political language. We don’t go and count XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 1, 2, 3, 2,000, 200,000, 1 million.

Political language, and therefore is an exaggeration --- I don’t agree with you. Millions of people are crying out for freedom. - 32 -

In this country? --- Yes, but you don’t go and count those millions of people.

And you hope to achieve that in “our lifetime”, in your lifetime? --- Certainly, even in your lifetime. (PAGE 129 OF THE RECORD) Sophiatown, did you ever paint slogans protesting … on walls, protesting against the removal of the Bantu from Sophiatown? --- I did.

Yes, and you incited them not to move. To Meadowlands. --- I called upon the people not to move.

And which do you prefer, Sophiatown or Meadowlands? --- Which do I prefer.

Yes, which is the better place, Sophiatown…? --- I prefer to live where I would like to live, not where somebody in Parliament tells me to live.

Right, but of the two places, Sophiatown with all it’s slums and shebeens, or those beautiful garden houses in Meadowlands? Which do you think is the better place of the two? --- Sophiatown with its comparative freedom, than Meadowlands which has got 101 restrictions, permits, where your own mother can’t come and visit you without a permit.

COLLECTION NAME: Trial Collection COLLECTION NUMBER: AD1844 ITEM NUMBER: A24.1 DOCUMENT: Extract of Ahmed Kathrada's Evidence

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