PAGE 1 OF RECORD VOL 24 (BOX 6) EXTRACT OF EVIDENCE THE STATE VS N. MANDELA AND OTHERS ACCUSED NO. 5 – AHMED MAHOMED KATHRADA declares under oath MR: BERRANGE TO COURT: My lord, although no. 5 is being called at this stage, it doesn’t mean to say that the accused who are earlier than he is in order, will not be called --- Yes. EXAMINATION BY MR BERRANGE: Mr. Kathrada, I think you were born on the 21st of August 1929 at Schweizer Renecke? --- that is correct. And I think it would be fair to say of you, that for the greater portion of your life as a juvenile and for the whole portion of your adult life, you have concerned yourself in the political sphere? --- that will be correct. I think your first contact with politics came at a very early age Mr. Kathrada? --- that is correct. PAGE 2 OF THE RECORD And in 1940 at the age of 11, were you already taking part in political activities? --- I helped to distribute leaflets and I attended meetings as well as lectures. And thereafter, did you get into contact with young Indian University Students who were closely associated with the Nationalist group of the Indian Congress. And lateron, did you hear of an organisation of the young people engaged in political work? --- Yes, I …at that stage I quite often came into contact with the young Communist League which I joined. That was in 1942? --- that is right. PAGE 5 OF THE RECORD – 12 lines down from the top of the page In 1946 the new leadership launched what we have been told, it was called the Passive Resistance Movement? --- that is right. And this a movement against the land restrictions placed on the Indian people by the 1946 Ghetto Act --- that’s right - 2 - That of course is not the passive resistance which have been referred to later on? --- No, no. This was in 1946. This campaign lasted for about two years, and I think there were 2,000 Indians imprisoned? --- correct. You left school in June of that year did you not? --- That is right. You were the doing your final matric? --- correct. And you left for the purposes of doing what? --- I left school for the purpose of working fulltime in the offices of the Passive Resistance Council. And in December of 1946, at the age of 17, I think you served a month’s imprisonment in Durban as PAGE 6 OF THE RECORD a Passive Resistance volunteer? --- correct. And thereafter, you remained fulltime in the offices of the Indian Congress until it was banned in 1954? --- Until I was banned in 1954. And so far as the Communist Party was concerned, you remained a member of that until it was declared illegal in 1950, and you are a listed Communist. --- I am. Now you heard evidence given this morning about your position in the Congress Movement by Mr. Sisulu. You do consider that you were a leading figure in the S.A. Indian Congress, were you not? --- That would be a bit flattering. I considered myself to be a leading activist. And until when did you remain on the Executive of the Transvaal Indian Congress? --- Until I was banned in 1954. And then perforce you had to resign? --- that’s right. And thereafter you’ve held no Executive position at all? --- thereafter I was not allowed to hold any position in 39 organisations. - 3 - PAGE 7 OF THE RECORD – about middle of page Mr. Kathrada you told us that you were born in Schweizer Reneke in 1929, were you brought up there until you went to school? --- Yes, until I was about 8 or 9. And then when you went to school, where did you go to school? --- I had to come to JHB to school. Why was that? --- that is because there were no schools in the country towns for Indians, and I was not allowed to attend either the European schools or the African schools. How did that affect you? --- This was the first time that I consciously came into contact with the colour bar in this country. Had you struck in your childhood in Schweizer Reneke? --- My childhood was completely free of any form of colour experience. My childhood friends were little white and African children. And the people who were in your household and PAGE 8 of THE RECORD in your father’s business? --- Our house where I grew up and even till now, is situated where we have our immediate neighbours who are white. In my father’s shop there was one white shop assistant I can think of, and there was also an African bookkeeper. Who brought you up? --- Like the rest of my family, and I suppose this position would have been with most the Platteland Indians,, the midwife when I was born, also my brothers, was a European woman, who was not just midwife, who was like a second mother to me, and I became very attached to her. Known as your ouma I think? --- she was known as my ouma. So you went to school at the age of 9? --- That’s right, but prior to that my father had engaged an African teacher who taught me at home. At any rate, the impact of the colour bar, struck you very forcibly? --- It did. - 4 - So that by the age of 11 you were distributing leaflets? --- To me it seemed very natural. Now in 1951, I believe you enrolled at Wits.University? --- that’s right. With the intention of doing a B.A. and obtaining a law degree? --- those were my hopes. But you didn’t stay there very long? --- No I did not. Why not? --- In 1951 after I was at Wits for a few months, I was elected by the Indian Youth Congress to represent it at a world festival of youth and students in Berlin PAGE 9 OF THE RECORD Now you say that you were asked to go abroad, and were you asked by the Students Liberal Association to do anything on their behalf? --- Yes, the Students Liberal Association asked me to attend a conference on it’s behalf of the International Union of Students. How long did you stay in Europe? --- Almost a year my lord. Did your visit to Europe make any impact upon you? --- ah … Did you get a bit of a shock? --- To a non-European leaving S.A. and going to Europe it’s like entering a new world. I …my very first impression was when I saw at the airport in London Europeans scrubbing floors. Anyway, you were able there to attend the theatre, ballet opera,? --- Well even to attend a restaurant. I PAGE 10 OF THE RECORD mean even to have a cup of tea in a restaurant. That you can’t do here? --- It was the first time in my life that I could walk into a restaurant and have a cup of tea. You could stay at a hotel and get into a lift, bus or train as you pleased? --- that was. - 5 - Was that a festival in which there were people of only one colour or one race? --- There again the most striking thing for me at the festival was that, the fact that it was attended by 30,000 young people of all colours, of all religions, of different political views. Even communists? --- A lot of communists, non-communists, anti-communists, from about – from over 100 countries in the world. And I believe that you were the leader of the S.A. delegation? --- I was the leader of the S.A. delegation which consisted of 65 South Africans. Men and women? --- men and women, here again we had young men and women of all races, Indians, Africans, Coloureds, Jews, Englishmen, Afrikaners. With different religious beliefs and different politics? --- That’s right. Did you notice any significant change in a certain individual there? ---Well, I wanted to point out to the Court, that PAGE 11 OF THE RECORD XXXX amongst the delegates or participants in the South African delegation, was a member of the Nationalist Party. A professional man from South Africa, who I understood for the first time in his life met a non-white other than his master in … What happened then? --- Well, he confessed to me that it made a tremendous impression on him. Now whilest you were there, I think you also visited the Auschwitz Concentration Camp, where as we all know several million people were put to death by the Germans --- That was in Poland. After attending the conference of the International Union of Students, I accompanied a tour of young people to the Auschwitz Concentration Camp. - 6 - As a result of what you saw there did your group who went there take any resolutions? --- Well we were all shocked at what we saw at Auschwitz. We saw human bones, in fact, we walked on human bones, and these were the bones of what were once human beings. Jews and peope who opposed the Nazis. We saw lampshades made from human skins. We saw dentures from which the gold had been extracted. This made a tremendous impression upon all of us, particularly the South Africans, and this young Nationalist who was with me in Poland … BY THE COURT: Well, I don’t think the Court is interested in the impression it made on others. It’s interested in the impression that it made on the witness Mr. Berrange --- No what I want to get out is what happened to him my lord.