~ Mixing Fire and Water ~ An Interview with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche Erik Pema Kunsang Rinpoche, would you please tell us about your life, teachers, and the retreats you have done? Tulku Urgyen: I was born in Eastern Tibet, in Kham, in the area called Nangchen. The Dharma teaching of my family line is called Barom Kagyu. My grandmother was the daughter of Chokgyur Lingpa, the great terton, so my family line also practices the Nyingma teachings. Since I hold the lineages of both Kagyu and Nyingma, my monastery in Boudhanath is therefore called Ka-Nying Shedrub Ling, The Kagyu and Nyingma Place for Teaching and Practice. From the time I was quite small until the age of twenty-one, I stayed with my father who was a Vajrayana teacher and tantric layman. His name was Tsangsar Chimey Dorje. My father was my first teacher and from him I received the transmission for the Kangyur, the entire ​ ​ teachings of the Buddha, and also for the Chokling Tersar, The New Treasures of Chokgyur Lingpa. Then, I studied with my father’s older ​ brother, Tulku Samten Gyatso from whom I received also, among other things, the entire transmission of the Chokling Tersar. ​ ​ Later on I studied with an incredible great master named Kyungtrul Kargyam and from him I received the entire Dam-ngak Dzo as well as ​ Chowang Gyatsa, the Hundred Empowerments of Cutting Practice. He ​ ​ ​ also passed on to me the reading transmission for the Hundred ​ Thousand Nyingma Tantras and the Jangter Gongpa Sangtal, the ​ Northern Treasure of Unimpeded Wisdom Mind. In particular, I ​ received from him a detailed commentary and clarification of the 1 important treasure of Chokgyur Lingpa renowned as Lamrim Yeshe ​ Nyingpo, the Gradual Path of The Wisdom Essence. ​ From the time I was eight years old, I received teachings on the nature of mind from my own father, and I was lucky later on, to receive detailed instructions in the form of guidance through personal ​ experience from Samten Gyatso on the teachings of Dzogchen, the Great Perfection. From my other uncle, Tersey Rinpoche, who was a close disciple of the great siddha Shakya Shri, I was also lucky to receive teachings on Dzogchen. Moreover, I again received detailed teachings on Lamrim Yeshe ​ Nyingpo from Jokyab Rinpoche, a disciple of Dru Jamyang Drakpa. The body of teachings known as Rinchen Terdzo, the Precious Treasury of ​ Termas, I received from Jamgon Kongtrul, the son of the 15th ​ Karmapa. As for the other of the Five Treasuries, I received the ​ ​ Gyachen Kadzo from my third uncle, Sang-ngak Rinpoche, the Kagyu ​ Ngakdzo from H.H. the 16th Karmapa himself, and the Sheja Kunkyab ​ Treasury from Tana Pemba Rinpoche. I addition, I have received the root empowerments of Jigmey Lingpa from our lord of refuge Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche several times. In Eastern Tibet I spent three years in retreat just reciting the Mani. ​ ​ [Laughs]. Later on at Tsurphu, the seat of the Karmapas, I also spent three years in retreat and then again in Sikkim I was able to spend almost three years in intensive practice. Lately, I have been here at Nagi Gompa for a few years. That’s my life story. What lineages does Rinpoche hold? Tulku Urgyen: My family line is the holder of the Barom Kagyu teachings which originate from Gampopa’s disciple Barom Dharma Wangchuk. His disciple was Tishi Repa whose disciple was called Repa Karpo. His disciple again was Tsangsar Lumey Dorje. His disciple, Jangchub Shonnu of Tsangsar, is in my paternal ancestral lineage. The line of his son and his son again, all the way down to my father, is called Tsangsar Lhai Dung-gyu, the Divine Bloodline of Tsangsar. My incarnation line is called Chowang Tulku. With that same name I am just the second. My past life was said to be an 2 incarnation of Guru Chowang. He was also said to be an emanation of one of the twenty-five disciples of Padmasambhava called Nubchen Sangye Yeshe, but who knows that for sure. [Laughs]. My former life, Chowang Tulku, was a secret yogi. No one knew how his practice was, but when he passed away his body shrunk down to the size of one cubit without decomposing. What does Dzogchen mean? Tulku Urgyen: Dzog, perfection, inclusion or completion, means as in ​ ​ this quote from a tantra: Included in one – everything is included within ​ mind. Included in two – everything of samsara and nirvana is included within this. Dzog means that all the teachings, all phenomena, is ​ ​ completely contained in the vehicle of Dzogchen; all the lower vehicles are included within Dzogchen. Chen, great, means that there ​ is no method or means higher than this vehicle. What is the basic outline of practice according to the Dzogchen path? Tulku Urgyen: All the Buddha’s teachings are contained within nine gradual vehicles of which Dzogchen, the Great Perfection, is like the highest golden ornament on a rooftop spire, or the victory banner on the summit of a great building. All the eight lower vehicles are contained within the ninth which is called Dzogchen in Tibetan, Mahasandhi in Sanskrit and Great Perfection in English. But Dzogchen is not contained in the lowest one, the shravaka vehicle. So when we say included or complete it means that all the lower yanas are included or completely contained within the Great Perfection, within Dzogchen. Usually we say that Dzogchen, sometimes called Ati Yoga, is a Dharma tradition but actually it is the basic state of one’s mind. When it comes to combining these following two points into actual experience, we can use the statement of the 3rd Karmapa, Rangjung Dorje: It is not existent as even the buddhas have not seen it. This means ​ that the basic state of mind is not something that exists in a concrete way; even the buddhas of the three times have never perceived it. It is ​ not non-existent as it is the basis for both samsara and nirvana. This is not a contradiction, it is the middle path of unity. Contradiction is like 3 having fire and water on the same plate. It’s impossible. But that is not the case here. The basic nature is neither existent nor non-existent, these two are an indivisible unity. May I perceive the mind nature free ​ from extremes. Usually when we say is it contradicts is not. And when ​ ​ ​ we say non-existent it contradicts existent. But this middle path of unity is devoid of such contradiction. Attaining the unified state of Vajradhara actually refers to this. This unity of being empty and cognizant is the state of mind of all sentient beings. There is nothing special about that. A practitioner should encompass that with a core of knowing. That is the path of practice. Again, the unity of being empty and cognizant with a core of knowing. The special feature of Dzogchen is as follows: Primordial pure essence is Trekcho, Cutting Through. This view is actually present in all the nine vehicles, but the special quality of Dzogchen is called spontaneously present nature, Togal, Direct Crossing. The unity of these two, Cutting Through and Direct Crossing, Trekcho and Togal, is the special or unique teaching of Dzogchen. That is how Dzogchen basically is. That’s it. Dzogchen is very direct and doesn’t seem to have a linear quality in terms of the way one would approach it. In the other yanas sometimes one would first do the set of preliminaries, then a yidam practice and tsa-lung practice. It seems like Dzogchen is very immediate, like the essence is already present, available. Is there any kind of linear path in the way one would approach these teachings or is it always direct? Tulku Urgyen: We do in the Dzogchen tradition have the gradual system of preliminaries, main part and so forth. But the special characteristic of Dzogchen is to introduce or point out directly the naked state of knowing, self-existing wakefulness. This is for students who are suitable, meaning those who have sharp mental faculties. Instead of going through a lot of beating around the bush, one would introduce them directly to their mind essence, to self-existing knowing. 4 Dzogchen is said to have great advantage but also great danger. Why is this? Because all the teachings are ultimately and finally resolved within the system of Dzogchen. This can be divided into two parts, resolving the teachings through intellectual understanding and through experience. To resolve through experience is the great advantage or benefit in the sense that having pointed out and recognizing directly naked knowing you simply take that as the main part of practice. That is the incredible great benefit because it is the very direct and swift path to enlightenment. On the other hand, the great danger is when you just leave naked knowing as an intellectual understanding, that “In Dzogchen there is no thing to meditate upon. There is no thing to view. There is nothing to carry out as an action.” That becomes a nihilistic concept and is completely detrimental to progress, because the final point of the teaching is conceptlessness, being beyond intellectual thinking. Yet, what has happened is that you have created an intellectual idea of Dzogchen and hold on to that idea very tightly. This is a major mistake but it can happen. So, it is very important to bring the instruction into ​ personal experience through the oral guidance of a teacher. Otherwise, simply to have the idea: I am meditating on Dzogchen, is to ​ ​ completely miss the point. Self-existing wakefulness is present within the mind-stream of all sentient beings since primordial time.