Edward McMillan-Scott & Gao Zhisheng Phone Call

00:00:00 INTRODUCTION Edward McMillan-Scott: Just while we're waiting, this is, this is...this is to celebrate, or to commemorate...the one year anniversary of Gao Zhisheng...being arrested. And when I was in Beijing on the 21st to the 25th of May last year...on a visit which was organised...while I was...spokesman on...democracy and human rights, and writing a report...and I went to Beijing and then went on a conference tour organised by...Falun Gong practitioners to Hong Kong and Taiwan. And in Beijing I met...umn, a number of people in a hotel room, on arrival there. One was Zhao Dong...who is in his 30s...a Falun Gong practitioner who had been...imprisoned for four years in North West China...and, his wife was also a practitioner and she too had been imprisoned...and I also met Niu Jingping...who's wife...umn...was at that time, or had been imprisoned in 2005...and he told me that, he'd also been imprisoned...she was being tortured in the Beijing Women's Prison...through beatings...and he said to her, the last time he had seen her, her whole body was black and blue, and she had gone deaf as a result of the...the severity of the torture, in order to get her to renounce uh Falun Gong...And...with him was, their three year old daughter...and there were a couple of other people who were actors and interpretors and organisers of the meeting. And I had my then assistant Jennifer Forest, who filmed the meeting. Which was partly to discuss the status of repression and the persecution of the Falun Gong practitioners, since June 1999 (July)...when it is believed more than 3000 have died through torture...And partly to...discover whether...or what extent...umn...organ harvesting was taking place, in other words, the taking of organs from living prisoners...for profit...I asked both Niu Jingping, who had no knowledge of this practice...and Zhao Dong, who did. Zhao Dong said "well...I can remember one...day my...best friend, a Falun Gong practitioner, disappeared from...the cell...and the next I saw, his body in the prison hospital with holes where, evidently, body parts had been removed"...Well after the meeting, which took about an hour...umn...my assistant and I left...and we didn't know, but immediately all the people there were arrested...umn...One was deported...one was...sent back to his work, he was an American...umn, working in Beijing, he acted as interpreter, with a warning. Zhao Dong and Niu Jingping were umn held. Niu Jingping for 5 days, with his little daughter, and then they were released...Zhao Dong...is still in prison...umn, in uh... {Break}...I think I need that, the brief on the three...theres one on Gao...actually Kate I might have it... We had a report uh...about the current status of Zhao Dong, so I want to read it for the record...And...{phone rings}...

05:35:10 PHONE CALL Uh Kate...Hello. Thank you...hello... Translator: Edward McMillan- Scott. EMS: Yes i'm speaking. T: Oh hey Edward. This is [anon]. EMS: Hello [anon]. T: HI we have Hu Jia on the line. EMS: Excellent...just...just one second...coz she knows how this works...just one second, we're going to...hello... T: Yes, yes, Edward. EMS: How do you make this thing work...just a minute...ok...if I put this down, what happens? Kate: They can hear you. EMS: Ok, can you hear me now? T: Yes I can, we can hear. EMS: Good...ok, shut the door. Umn, hello Hu Jia, this is Edward McMillan-Scott. i'm a vice president of the European Parliament. *Translation* and on May the 21st of 25th last year, I visited Beijing *T* and I met two former prisoners of conscience T: And you? I beg your pardon Edward. EMS: And I met two former prisoners of conscience.*T* And I was in, supposed to meet Gao Zhisheng, but all the ambassadors said "do not meet him" and then I discovered that the people I had already met had been arrested. *T* I therefore spoke to Gao on the telephone uh on the 4th of June on the anniversary of Tiananmen Square, and we discussed the Olympics and human rights and the repression of Falun Gong and other religious groups, and the possibility of reform in China. And those are the questions i'd like to put to Hu Jia now. *T* First of all can I thank Hu Jia for joining us on the telephone, and I realise he is doing so at some risk to himself. *T* But perhaps he'd like now to make a short statement to us. T: Would you like him to make a short statement? Yeah. Ok. *T* *Hu Jia – Mandarin* EMS: He's an environmentalist and human rights activist. *M* T: Umn uh Edward. He is very clear on of {inaudible} your trip to China, and your intention to meet with Mr Gao, because he was with Mr Gao the whole time. They were actually expecting you, uh, in May or some time around there. And they were umn a little bit disappointed they weren't able to see you, but they can understand, they understand the situation. And he was...he doesn't think that they are afraid of China's, Chinese government at all, so he wants to make that clear, to you. EMS: Well good. You can tell him I apologise very much that I did not meet them. But the problem was, that all the ambassadors, including the Head of the EU Mission, said, for Gao's own sake and safety, there should be no meeting. And then as I say, the other people I met were arrested. And so I thought it would be better not to talk to him on that occasion. But I will look forward to meeting Hu Jia and, of course, Gao Zhisheng in due course, in free Beijing. *T* *M* T: Hu Jia says that this day would not be very far from now.

11:38:03 1st QUESTION - Gao's Family EMS: OK. Well my first question is, how, how is Gao Zhisheng and how is his family? *T* *M* T: Umn, uh, since, since August 15 last year, that uh Mr Gao and his family are living in a life as hell, as hell. In April this year, that it was improved a little bit, because Mr Gao actually uh called Hu Jia, and then then actually told outside world that what has happened to him, and his family. And because of this {inaudible} the situation has improved a little bit, although the...the police continue to monitor him and his family. Umn, this few weeks actually has been worsened, because the, because Mr Gao has resumed umn resumed some of the work to fight with human rights for some people. And also begins to umn talking a little bit more to to people. Umn, so this few weeks actually, there average about 10 police watching hum under uh around his home. And all 24hrs a day. And its almost nobody can go to see him, and he, its very difficult to, almost impossible to reach him by phone. Umn so the situation has worsened in this few weeks. EMS: And what about his family? is daughter and his wife? *T* *M* T: Um, so since...Mr Gao and his wife and his children actually have, have been through a lot. And this pressure is still continues, even after Mr Gao was released...after he was sentenced, and then took the, went home. For example, because, Mr Gao was actually taken from home uh multiple times this year...uh ever since he went home. And also he was beaten, severely, in June this year. And also his wife and his children, were umn, they were not able to obtain the passports. And the police, although this should be pretty easy for any other, any other citizens in China to obtain the passport, but for them its impossible. The police clearly told his family and him, that the reason not granting them the passport is that they would held them as hostage, and would, so that would make sure, so they could make sure that Mr Gao doesn't talk to the public and control his own speech {inaudible}.

17:06:19 2nd QUESTION - Gao Communications EMS: What was, when was the last occasion that Hu Jai spoke to Gao Zhisheng? Can he tell us that? *T* *M* T: Umn, Mr Gao's phone is hard to get through. About 1 month ago umn that already Mr Hu has no prob...no way to get through by phone to talk to Mr Gao. Although there, he has some special channels that were able to, so he and Mr Gao can communicate in some way, but he's not, it probably not a good idea to disclose that on the phone right now. Umn, but he has some ways that so, theres {inaudible} communication will happen between hum and Mr Gao. So he knows that, the approximate situation is with Mr Gao. EMS: Ok, well in that case I hope he will be able to convey the concern of all of us here in London, to umn Gao and his family, for the situation they find themselves in. And, could uh Hu Jia also make it clear to Gao Zhisheng that at the highest levels of the European Union, uh we are making strenuous efforts to have him released. *T* *M* T: Umn, Mr Hu understands this and he for sure will convey those, those concerns and remarks to Mr Gao. And he, he knows that Mr Gao would, would be encouraged very much so. And also he wants to, he wants to tell you that umn Mr Gao's has been used as the, as the hostage. And Mr Gao has said multiple times that if without his, family, family members being uh held hostage, if that weren't the case, then he could have done a lot more. Uh it really doesn't matter to him if the Chinese government would jail him or would torture him, he he doesn't care. So the only thing that uh, that really uh uh that uh make him kinda stop this from uh doing a lot more is because his family uh will suffer. EMS: You tell him uh, tell Hu Jia I fully understand that, and but could he also say to uh Gao Zhisheng that uh umn although uh umn he is in imprisoned by the regime, he remains an extremely important symbol of umn the possibilities for a free China. And his stand, and that of Hu Jia himself on human rights and the environment uh is very much recognised, not only in Europe...but across the world. And last week...there were a number of...reports produced, for example, by Amnesty International...in which both umn Gao Zhisheng and Hu Jia were widely mentioned. So the flame of freedom is alight in China, but its also recognised elsewhere in the world.

23:11:09 OLYMPIC GAMES EMS: Can I ask Hu Jia for an opinion, as he represents the reform movement in China uh both as regards the environment and the political situation and the social situation...he may know that last week I...made a statement in which I said that the European Union should begin a debate about a possible boycott of the Olympic Games, if nothing had changed by Christmas. Does Hu Jia want to comment on that? *T* *M* T: Umn yes umn. He thinks that uh that...{phone problems}... EMS: Hello...hello...hello...hello...this is London... T: Edward. Oh good, sorry, my phone. Umn, so, what Mr Hu was saying is that, that Chinese would be, would be, would be proud, they like, they like to sponsor the Olympics. Although that the, right now the Olympics have been kidnapped by the Chinese Communist Party, umn so it no-longer belongs to the Chinese people. And they use, umn, what basically what the Chinese government, the Chinese Communist government is doing is completely going against the spirit, the spirit of the Olympic Games...Actually umn {inaudible} to kidnap the Olympics and to to uh...ad value to their, basically use that to justify...basically making their ruling {inaudible} people. And also to use the Olympics to violate the human rights, that justifies their behaviour to violate human rights. And so its actually overseas, overseas pressure, Mr Hu believes, is very important to to make the the Chinese Communist Government improve their human rights. Umn because uh this Olympics is no-longer belonging to the people and is actually being kidnapped by the Chinese Communist party. EMS: Ok...and... T: Edward, Mr Hu still has... EMS: Yep...go on. *M* T: Umn, their thinking is that, they want this this Olympic Games to become the 1988 Olympic Games in uh in uh Seoul uh in Korea, and through pressure and to push for the democracy in China, they don't want these Games to become like the Games in 1936 Nazi Germany. Actually, this kind of a uh competition between the between the pro- democracy people and other people, human rights activists uh between them and the Chinese Communist Government, this competition has started a few years back. This is as much as he would like to talk about.

29:19:06 INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE EMS: Ok, can he, can he make an estimate of the among the reformists in China...{mobile phone}...among the reformists in China...would there be a majority in favour of uh taking a fairly tough line with regime? *T* *M* T: Yes, his personal understanding and his judgement tells him that uh yes that would be, would be the main uh mainstream opinion of the reformists. Although the reformists is not the mainstream of the Chinese Communist Government, uh because there is a lot of other uh uh other factors like the, I mean, the divisions, like uh the Propaganda Department and like some other...factors in the Chinese Government, they're all controlled by the very umn {inaudible} and they, they are the root, they are the main people who are violating human rights, doing all these bad things. And he thinks uh international...the international community can put more pressure on uh and boycott the Olympics, to boycott the Olympics. It will not only umn, it will not only uh, it will put a lot of pressure on uh this 'non-reformists' part of the Chinese Communist Government. And also, uh also in the grass-roots efforts...for the common citizens in China, they would also uh be supportive of that, so he thinks that its actually a good umn, good for both ways. So he thinks that this, use this opportunity of the Olympics to put pressure on China. He thinks its a great, very good opportunity.

33:16:33 FURTHER COMMENTS EMS: Ok umn, well thats, thats very helpful to know. Umn, does umn, does Hu Jia have any further messages, because we ought to bring this to a close now, but does he have any further messages he wants to pass on to the international community? *T* *M* T: Umn. So, in 2000, in 2006 uh we can see the human rights situation in China, human rights in China have worsened since severely uh with Mr Gao, uh Lawyer Mr Gao being arrested and also Chung Wah Chung [spelling to be confirmed] another, another lawyer was also arrested in 2006. Umn seems that this because that the, this force, this human rights fighting force has been, has been very strong and the Chinese Communist Government has some very difficulty to control and that...{siren}...high pressure. They have to uh, have to do this specific thing, I mean uh to arrest the both lawyers, and because they, they already don't know how to control it anymore. And he thinks that this...'non-reformist' part of the Chinese government has becoming weakened. Uh thats why they have to, they have to do all of this to try to make it up for it. And he thinks that uh 2006, the year 2006 is in China is kind of similar to the year 1, 1984 in Europe. He he he and others, uh the activists, are uh very confident uh in China, in China's future. And he always the most, the very important part of this of the effort, is to form uh, hopefully the world will form an ally with the people in China by fighting for, fighting for this democracy. And very thankful uh especially to you Edward for your efforts and also, also many others in the, concerned about China's human rights and also...and he is very thankful to you and others.

37:14:00 RELIGION EMS: Ok, just before, just before Hu Jia goes, could you ask him whether he is aware of the persecution of religions in China umn and whether this the movement, the religious movements, be they Buddhist, or Christian or Muslim, whatever is going to have an effect, like it did in in Central and Eastern Europe in getting rid of the Soviet Union? Does he have a view on that? *T* *M* T: Uh what Mr Hu's saying is that umn the dictatorship is very, very uh strong in in China, and they all, all this machine, countries machine, machinery and also, all this uh, all this uh uh uh stuff basically beat up people. And the method they use is very, very violent and very brutal. Umn uh the people, especially who do this kind of job is because they laugh at, they laugh at any kind of belief, any kind of religion {inaudible}. So they actually don't have any moral...they don't have any compassion. Umn, if they have this, if they have, if they have some kind of belief uh or religion, it would be different. Umn so also, the belief or with a religion, people would, would be, they tend to uphold their beliefs and uphold, uphold their principles, they will not easy to bow to the pressure and will not change their principles uh easily. So so umn the Chinese Communist government is well aware of that, that why they dare, thats why they are afraid of, and thats why they brainwash people in their education systems. to to umn basically to to make them not believe in anything. Umn...so thats why umn. And also he he thinks that, even when all this danger of having a belief, but in China this uh, the number of people believing in uh uh Christianity, Buddhism as well as Falun Gong and others have increased dramatically, dramatical, even though theres uh theres uh danger of this. Its something that he believes the power is uh is uh very powerful. He believe that this will eventually change uh China. And this is something that the Chinese government would not be able to control.

41:56:07 SUMMATION EMS: Ok, I agree with him. Could he tell me lastly, does he have a religion himself? *T* *M* T: Umn Yeah, he considers himself a Buddhist, and his wife is uh Buddhist believing in Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhist. And he was also in India last year to met, to meet with the Dalai Lama. Umn and also, they would, they would try very hard to umn, to uh uh to to, they would try very hard to fight for the right of all, everybody, everybody's right for their belief. Their basic human rights. And they would also pay attention especially to the both church, as well as the people who are practice Falun Gong and are being persecuted for it. EMS: Ok well could you thank Hu Jia for his uh compassion and his clarity and his courage. And could you, and could you ask him to tell Gao that I have not forgotten my promise of some whiskey when he is free. *T* *M* T: Well for sure I can convey that to Mr Gao, and he knows, he knows that Mr Gao would be very very happy. EMS: Shieh shieh [thank you in Mandarin] Thank you Sherry as well, thank you both very much indeed. "Thank you very much Edward

1:00:00 SUMMARY OF HU JIA Lady on left of screen: Erm he feels that the Olympics have been [loud turning of page] kidnapped by the Chinese Communist Party and they no longer belong to the Chinese people [EMS: Yeh] erm and thats basically everything the Olympic spirit says about inclusion and the equality of chance, and that they use the Olympic Games to justify violating human rights you know, in that context and things have worsened in 2006, as a result, 2007... EMS: There was a crackdown on reformists and then religions; I think you ought to put that in as well cos I think its relevant what he says about religion. Erm, that he see's its 1984 in China, I mean thats, thats his standpoint, in other words the beginning of the reforms in Europe. Because we need to do, we're going to do a statement to [inaudible] are you on, your doing Sound of Hope and NDTV [Tina: Er, we call it NTDTV, I will do the NT, Sound of Hope, Earl will do the NTDTV and Epoch Times] OK. Well you've got a long tape so you can...how it is. Do you want to ask any more questions of me?

1:01:08 WORLD UNAWARE OF 'CHINESE VOICE' Tina: Er, yes. Firstly its related to with erm, Olympic Games, yeh I think Hu Jia make more clear to us, outside China, he wish Olympic Games belong to the people rather than kidnapped by the Chinese Authority, so I think this is the very clear message of Chinese people erm, you know, in Mainland China. Erm, and this message may not be much widely understood by out, you know, Western society like politicians or media or common, the public, so Edward, how do you think we can make this message widely known to the...(EMS: I think.)...international community? EMS: I think the important thing is that Hu Jia is a very important figure in China, he is a well-known reformist, he's a human rights activist, he's also very active in the field of erm, environmental reform, and, so I think what he, what he says requires quite a lot of courage, obviously because of the situation he's in, erm, but what he was saying, I think the wider world should understand, which is that in China itself, people think that the regime has captured the Olympics, they've kidnapped the Olympics for their own profit, for their own advantage, despite that, even if they take place, he would like them to be more like the Seoul Olympics in 1988, where after that South Korea became a more reformists, democratic nation with genuine human rights. And not like the parallel Olympics, which are the genocide Olympics of 1936, when already in Nazi Germany there were concentration camps and wholesale repression, and genocidal activities against, for example, the Jewish people. I personally believe that erm, even though the er, tyranny of er, Germany and it's effect on the world through World War Two was massive by comparison, the fact is that internally in China today, the situation is actually worse, with 70 Million people dying under the Communist regime, since 1949; 38 Million of them through starvation. So this historical reference is an important one. The other thing is that the Olympic spirit means that the whole people should enjoy the Olympics, and that is not really the case. It is a few thousand people in Beijing are going to profit from the Olympics directly. And Hu Jia also said that overseas pressure is very important, so he's not saying don't talk about it, he's saying yes lets have a debate about it. Boycotting the Olympics, well that puts pressure on the regime, and erm, we then talked about religions, where, where he believes that China today is a 1984. In other words, the same status as the Communist regime in Central and Eastern Europe beginning to crack. He says that the regime is frightened, especially of religions. Religions are the end which destroyed the Soviet Union. The Catholics in Poland, the Protestants in other parts of Central and Eastern Europe down to Romania, who became active and said this is enough. And there are millions of people in China, whether their Buddhists or Christians or Muslims or other religions who are being repressed. And this is because the CCP is afraid, but as he said belief is more powerful, and I believe faith cannot be killed, even though I have non myself. So that, I think, is basically what er, Hu Jia had to say. And this is the message that the international community needs to listen too. Tina: OK 1:05:17 OLYMPICS AND POLITICS EMS: So any other comments that anybody wants to make? Any questions? Chinese lady: Erm, I want to ask you, yesterday The Guardian published an article about the comments of Simon Clegg, the British Olympic Association Chief Executive. I don't know if you have read this, that article on Guardian. Er, he said that erm, the Games shouldn't er, you know, shouldn't be Boycotted for the human rights reasons and the erm, er the committee are wholly independent of governments politics erm, so how do you comment about his words. EMS: Well I think Mr, is it G? Simon Clegg. I think Mr Clegg is ignorant of the Olympic Charter itself, because Article 1 talks about the educational value of good example, and respect for universal, fundamental ethical principles. And I believe that the UN Human Rights Charter is indeed such a universal fundamental ethical principle and I think that Mr Clegg ought to go and read the charter. And erm it is not true that the Olympic movement is non- political. After all, in 1964 the International Olympic Committee banned erm, South Africa from participation of the Games for several years because of Apartheid. In 2001, the International Olympic Committee made a erm, strong play of the demands that it had made of China for reform. Pledges were received by the International Olympic Committee, which duly awarded the Games to China and nothing has happened. And I'm much more interested to hear from Mr Clegg what representations he is making on behalf of the British people erm, for whose Olympic Association he is chief executive, as to what has happened to these demands made by the IOC and totally ruled by the regime. We've just heard that the situation on human rights is actually getting worse in China, so when Mr Clegg is enjoying the celebrations erm, for the countdown to the 2008 Olympics taking place in Tiananmen Square, he should remember that that is the location of the focus of the death of thousands of reformists in 1989 and is also the place where peaceful demonstrations have taken place by, among others, the Falun Gong practitioners, who since 1999 have lost more than 3,000 of their own members through torture in Chinese prisons, and its still taking place today, and I happen to know of two individuals who are currently being tortured, and so I'm making public their status so there is no doubt at all that in my own visits to China I have made an effort to find out whats really going on in China, its time Mr Clegg did. Chinese lady: Ok, thank you.

1:08:43 THE OLYMPICS Ling: I, er, I wonder whats the response from the UK er medalists, and er, those participants who are going to China for the Olympics, er next year, after this worldwide er, appeal for this boycotting the er, Olympic in Beijing, especially about your statement. EMS: I think its too early to give any sort of message to sportspeople beyond be prepared. Be prepared for the games, and be prepared for a boycott. And er, in my own view, and this has been the case for some time, China, erm, has not behaved appropriately, and the Games should not take place, but thats a personal viewpoint, what I'm trying to encourage is a debate within the European Union, which has as its own treaty the priority of promoting democracy and human rights, fundamental freedom of the rule of law worldwide; what is it doing about China? So we have to have a debate within the European Union, and this is a unique situation, not for a generation has there been a political debate about the Olympic Games because Athens or Atlanta or Seoul are not controversial. The last controversy was about Moscow in 1980, after the Soviet Union had invaded Afghanistan at the time when there was massive repression of dissidents within Russia itself, including again religious groups like the Baptists and the Jews, erm and there was widespread support; Germany, Japan, the United States all boycotted the 1980 Olympics, erm but for a generation there's been no controversy. There is now going to be a controversy, and its not just me saying it, it is members of the US congress, other members of the European Parliament, it is national parliamentarians right around the world who are saying hang on, look at Beijing and lets see what the regime is doing before we give our consent to the Games going ahead. And there are others, for example Mia Farrow who is currently in Africa erm, who has described these as the 'genocide olympics' because of the way that China is behaving in Africa supplying er, weapons and er, the raw material and support to the Sudan regime, erm, which has led to the continued er genocide in Darfur, which universally even the United Nations finally has taken a stronger line than it has previously. And I acknowledge that the Chinese did not veto, but thats so far all they have done, to stop the genocide in Darfur. So Mia Farrow describes these as the genocide Olympics. I agree with her, but my genocide is the internal genocide in China, where hundreds of thousands of people are in detention, er are in prison camps, are being tortured, have no freedom, have no justice, in the case, for example, of the Tiananmen square protestors, some of whom are still in prison today, those who have survived, and this is the regime we ought to be looking at, and not the gloss you saw last week from Tiananmen square, under the gaze of Mao Zedong, the great murderer. There it is. Ok Everybody. I think I've said enough.

1:12:15 HISTORIC EVENT Tina: Just ask a... [EMS: Yes] erm, after your, this is maybe your first public conversation er between western politicians with Chinese, you know, human rights people in China, open conversation, so er, how do you think it will er, influence on er, international community concerned about the...situation, true situation in China, or, and, is there any other plan for you to do, to make efforts... EMS: Yes, absolutely. No, no I think first of all you're right, first of all as far as I'm aware, the first time that a human rights activist in China has spoken freely and openly to a politician in the West. I would like to see this happening more often, and er, with more and more activists in China er, coming forward and making their views known. Erm, because I remember very well when I spoke to Gao finally on the telephone, he said to me, as Hu Jia said this morning you should have seen me in Beijing, because it is only by having those contacts that we are protected, and I believe it was because Hu Jia went public in April, as he said with, with er, reports about Gao's condition that the regime said ok fine we'll take him out of prison and put him back under house arrest. But this is playing cat and mouse with, with a very distinguished er, person, Gao Zhisheng, and I think what is important er, not just about the big figures but about the small figures er, and I want to come back to them at the end, it is people like Zhao Dong, on whom we have a very accurate report of where he is, who is torturing him, who is in the prison with him, and these er, are pieces of evidence, which in due course will form part of a case in the international criminal court, so I just warn the regime we know whats going on, we're taking names, we're taking down facts. In time, those responsible for genocide will be punished, as they have been in Africa, as they have been in other parts of the world, and one day, in China too. So do not sleep easy. Thank you. Tina: Thank you.

1:14:34 DIALOGUE WITH KATE Kate: Er, you mentioned about Zhao Dong's statement EMS: About? Kate: Zhao Dongs statement EMS: Yes, we've got a copy of it. We'll give it to you. And also Zhang Nyang [spelling to be confirmed], who is in a women's prison. And erm, so we've got those [inaudible]... I assume from ... practitioners who are sending out information. Yeh, Ok. Do you wanna go and get that now, and we'll dish it out. Good [tucking himself in] Ling: Edward I met erm, a human rights activist from China in Athens, he came out from China, he's currently staying in New Zealand, and he has got, he gave me the document, which er, I've got it on a memory stick, he got er Open Letter to er, IOC and with over ten thousand Chinese citizens true name for supporting that they want human rights rather than Olympic... EMS: And has he published it yet? Ling: Er, he send the letter to the IOC. EMS: I see, from Athens? Ling: Erm, before that he sent it, but he got copies, and he wanted, currently he's in Paris at the moment, and he's planning to go to Geneva er, to the UN, and probably he'll come to the UK as well. EMS: Do you want to email it to us? Ling: Er yes, actually I got it on me. EMS: Well if you, whose good on memory sticks...there's a PC next door download it, could you put it on our server though, email it back to us, or copy and send it to us. Kate will know what to do anyway. [talking in background]

1:16:35 BRUSSELS Tina: Will you be press release after.. all this EMS: Yes, well I suppose yes. I mean you don't have a mechanism for doing press releases do you? You don't do press releases, you just do Chinese lady: We do the report... EMS: Well, we'll do something. Erm, no I think we need to, we need to, the next one we'll do I think we'll do in Brussels, and we'll have a press conference erm, maybe in a month or so's time and er, either Hu Jia or somebody else, but it's a very good mechanism. [Tina: Yes] And I'm just sorry that no journalists apart from yourselves turned up but er, its not unusual. Especially in August in London. Tina: So you mean in Brussels you also...{inaudible} EMS: Always the Olympics yes. Olympics and human rights, thats the way its going to be. Absolutely. But I can tell you that the er, the my plan is to send these bits of evidence about er, Zhao Dong and er, Mrs Zhang to Gordon Brown, because I wrote to him last week, and I will publicise their condition today, they're just two people with whom I had contact, and erm, you know, she's still in prison, we've got a letter from Mr Barroso who's president of the European Commission erm, about their cases saying he's concerned. Well Ok this is whats happening, we can tell him. This is the current state of play; where they are, whats happening to them, who's doing it, you know. Because I think without those specific examples, its difficult to understand the... Tina: Yes the case, the genuine case [EMS: Exactly] this specific person... [EMS: Yip] Anon: Do you expect to hear back from Gordon Brown EMS: [Wry smile] I don't know its difficult to tell. But I mean not at the moment cos he doesn't want to get involved in the debate. You see the problem is that erm, the er... {kate comes in} good. Ah so there's Gao and then the other two. Kate: thats the Gao ones.

------Extract from the Human Rights Torch Relay

00:05:12 EDWARD MCMILLAN-SCOTT - Member of the European Parliament ...and the Olympics will take place next year in Beijing. I am indebted to the police and the other authorities for the permission to hold this rally. It demonstrates the concern the people of London have, indeed, the people of the United Kingdom, for the suffering 1.3billion in China, who enjoy no human rights. I'm here because others cannot speak. People like Sao Dong"? who I met last year in Beijing who is currently being tortured in Tian Dong Prison in northern China. I'm here because Jian Yan Ying [spelling to be confirmed] is being tortured in a prison in Beijing, and her husband appealed to me to have her released. She is still being tortured in prison. There are many many hundreds of thousands of people who are suffering in Chinese prisons and we believe, we believe that... {police interrupt}...we believe that...we have permission from the police...oh, I see...I believe we have permission from the police...i'm going to come to a close now and Im going to hand over to Lord Avebury, one of the most distinguished proponents of Human Rights in the United Kingdom Parliament. Lord Avebury.

26:35:18 EDWARD MCMILLAN-SCOTT Before I hand over to Zek Halu, who has organised this event, can I just point out that that is South Africa House. In 1964. In 1964 the International Olympic Committee, urged by people like Lord Avebury and others boycotted South Africa's participation in the Olympic games. Olympics and sports do mix, and has been repeatedly said this afternoon, the first article of the Olympic Charter enjoins Universal, fundamental, ethical principles. That is why we're here. And once again, at the end of this meeting, I regret deeply that the authorities of London have made us use a megaphone rather than a loud speaker system so as to project this message more clearly. But i'mm now going to hand over, before the torch ceremony begins, to Zek Halu who has organised this event. Zek.