Thursday Volume 547 28 June 2012 No. 22

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 28 June 2012

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Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): Before House of Commons the election, the Prime Minister pledged to keep the free bus pass. We know the Deputy Prime Minister and his Lib Dem colleagues did not agree, and now we learn Thursday 28 June 2012 that the Work and Pensions Secretary wants it scrapped as well. Can pensioners be sure they will not face a means test in order to receive their bus pass, or is this The House met at half-past Ten o’clock going to be another U-turn the Chancellor has not told the Transport Secretary about? PRAYERS Norman Baker: The hon. Lady clearly does not want to take yes for an answer. I do not know how many [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] times we have to say from the Dispatch Box that the concessionary fares arrangements will not change over the lifetime of this Parliament: end of story.

Maria Eagle: After the shambles of the last week, I Oral Answers to Questions am not sure that pensioners will be reassured by that commitment. After all, the Transport Secretary began the week by ruling out a U-turn on fuel duty. The fact is that pensioners are being hit now by cuts to bus services, TRANSPORT which Age UK and the National Pensioners Convention warn are leading to concessionary bus pass holders having no buses to get on. The Government were right The Secretary of State was asked— to respond to our call to do something for motorists, but as the Department for Transport has now admitted Concessionary Bus Travel to under-spending its budget by £500,000—the amount needed to restore bus funding—is it not time to show a 1. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): What similar commitment to public transport and restore the her policy is on the means-testing of concessionary bus bus cuts? travel for pensioners. [114039] Norman Baker: If I may say so, Mr Speaker, that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport question strays a long way from the tabled question (Norman Baker): I believe that you, Mr Speaker, and about concessionary bus passes, and if I were the hon. the Opposition Front-Bench team will know that my Lady I would not have asked it, because the latest ministerial colleague, the hon. Member for Hemel figures, out this week, show that bus passenger journeys Hempstead (Mike Penning), is unable to be here today in England increased by 0.6% between 2010-11 and as he is abroad at a piracy conference—or, hopefully, an 2011-12. They also show that bus fares outside London anti-piracy conference. fell by 4% in real terms between March 2009 and March We have no plans to introduce means-testing to assess 2011. I think that, on this occasion, the Eagle has eligibility for concessionary bus travel for older people. crash-landed. The right to free bus travel for both older and disabled people is enshrined in primary legislation. In the 2010 Airport Capacity (South-East) spending review, the Government said they will protect the statutory entitlement to concessionary bus travel. 2. Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): What recent assessment she has made of airport capacity Mr Betts: I am pleased the Minister has dropped the in the south-east; and if she will make a statement. Deputy Prime Minister’s ridiculous idea—presumably [114041] because he can envisage situations in which a pensioner who qualifies for a pass, under a means test, gets on a The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): bus and produces their pass, and everyone can see that It will be quite a job to follow the Minister’s last they are poor enough to qualify. We would end up with remark. better-off pensioners not getting a pass because they UK Aviation Forecasts 2011 provides an assessment would be means-tested out, and the poorer pensioners of how demand for air travel in the UK is expected to not using a pass because they would be too embarrassed change in the future. We will shortly launch a call for to do so. evidence to look at how we can tackle that challenge of emerging demand. Let us be clear, however: the coalition Norman Baker: I thought the hon. Gentleman might agreement stands. This Government cancelled the last have wanted to congratulate the Government on giving Government’s plans for a third runway, and we will be £25 million to South Yorkshire yesterday, or on proceeding sticking to that. with the Rotherham to Sheffield tram-train trial, about which he has been so keen, and which his Government Angie Bray: I thank the Secretary of State for that did nothing to advance over so many years. answer, and I know my constituents will be grateful, The Deputy Prime Minister raised no such idea, and too. Does she also agree that talk about expanding I made our position clear to the hon. Gentleman in a Heathrow so it becomes a competitive international letter of 2 April. He is well aware of the Government’s hub is wildly misplaced? A third runway would fill up position. almost at once—and where would a fourth runway go, 427 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 428 unless we were to look at possibly knocking down parts say that a Westminster Hall debate on rail-air transport of Hounslow and Staines, which I am sure would be links in the south-east took place earlier this week and entirely unacceptable? not one Labour MP turned up to it.

Justine Greening: My hon. Friend raises some of the Road Maintenance very difficult issues we have already run up against with Heathrow as a hub airport. She also points out that these discussions and decisions matter massively to 3. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): What residents on the ground, and she is right that the question recent assessment she has made of the level of funding is not just about a third runway at Heathrow—about for road maintenance. [114042] which we have been very clear—because expanding that airport further would pose significant challenges to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport local communities, which should be taken extremely (Norman Baker): The Department is providing £3 billion seriously. over four years to 2014-15 to local highway authorities in England for roads for which they are responsible. We Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): also provided £200 million in March 2011 to repair Airport capacity in the south-east has been studied in damage caused by the 2010 winter. The Highways Agency great detail for the last 50 years, and there is no further is responsible for operating, maintaining and improving information to be found. Is not the reason we are not the strategic road network in England, and this financial getting a third runway the deal done between the Prime year its maintenance budget is £755 million, excluding Minister and Boris Johnson to try to secure votes in costs associated with private finance initiative projects. west London, as a result of which the entire economy of the United Kingdom is suffering? I believe the Prime Steve Rotheram: We know that the coalition’s manoeuvre Minister wants to do a U-turn on this, and that he will of choice is the U-turn, so can the Transport Secretary do a U-turn. or the Minister continue in that vein by reversing the Department’s decision to cut investment in Britain’s Justine Greening: I am not sure whether that was road network by £3.5 billion? actually a question, Mr Speaker, but what I do know is that we need to approach this discussion with maturity Norman Baker: Again, I thought that the hon. Gentleman and from a long-term perspective. Given how much this might have welcomed the £20 million that the Department decision affects many people, not just in the industry, gave to Merseyside yesterday for investment in local but on the ground, it is not good enough to have a transport projects. I thought he might also have welcomed headline-driven, pub-style debate. What I have called the fact that in cash terms the Department is providing for now is a much longer-term debate to get some more for road maintenance over this four-year period answers that are not just right in the next 10 to 15 years, than his Government did over the previous four years. but will be right for the next 50 or 60 years. I very much welcome the fact that companies such as BA and people Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): such as Willie Walsh are now starting to step up to the May I welcome my hon. Friend’s announcement? North plate and join that debate. I look forward to their Yorkshire has the second longest rural road network, response and those of many others to the call for after Lincolnshire, and the most extreme winter conditions. evidence over the coming months. How can we ensure that we get a fair slice of the extra money that has been announced? Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Government will stand by the Norman Baker: I am happy to say that North Yorkshire whole of the coalition agreement in this area? Will she also qualified for funding from the Department yesterday confirm that they will stand by the cancellation of the to help the Harrogate and Knaresborough sustainable third runway at Heathrow, as she has said, will refuse transport package. We continue to fund road maintenance additional runways at Gatwick and Stansted, and will through the standard arrangements from the Department, rule out mixed mode at Heathrow? as I indicated a moment ago.

Justine Greening: I think I have been very clear: the Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The requirement coalition agreement, in its entirety, stands. That is the for large expenditure on road maintenance arises position. overwhelmingly from the heavy axle weights of lorries, so is it not sensible to look at schemes for transferring Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I represent a vast volumes of road freight on to rail? Will the Government constituency where the people on the ground are affected look seriously at schemes for transporting lorry trailers directly by Heathrow, and welcome the jobs and prosperity and lorries on trains throughout Britain? that the airport brings them. Will the Secretary of State improve access to Heathrow by investing in improved Norman Baker: I entirely sympathise with that question. rail access to it from the west as soon as possible? It is a We are taking steps to improve the amount of freight shovel-ready project—will she deliver it? that can be transported by rail. The rail Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet Justine Greening: I know that the hon. Lady has been (Mrs Villiers), is busy activating that. We have improved very passionate about that project. Indeed, a number of the gauge from Southampton and the rail line from weeks ago I was at a reception on it organised by her Felixstowe, and we hope to make further improvements. and my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East Of course our high-speed rail plans will free up space (Mr Wilson). We are looking at it very closely. I have to on the existing north-south routes. 429 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 430

Automotive Fuel is soaring, yet many of the infrastructure plans set out by the Chancellor do not begin until later in this Parliament. 4. Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): What Will the Secretary of State tell us what representations representations she has received on plans to increase she has made to the Chancellor to bring forward the level of ethanol in automotive fuel. [114043] infrastructure spending into this financial year and whether she has had any more success with that than The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport she had with her representations on fuel duty? (Norman Baker): We have received representations on ethanol from a range of individuals and organisations. Justine Greening: I do not think this Government Ethanol can currently be blended in petrol up to 5%. I need to take any lectures about debt levels from the understand an industry standard for a blend of up to Labour party. The only problem Labour has with our 10% is being developed. The Department has asked the debt levels is that they are not high enough. Labour Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership to work with consumer Members want more debt to get us out of this debt groups, vehicle manufacturers and fuel suppliers to plan problem, not less; no wonder they are sitting on the its introduction to ensure that appropriate safeguards Opposition Benches rather than the Government Benches. are in place and consumers have clear information. We are absolutely bringing forward transport projects. In fact, in the time that I have been in this role we have Mr Knight: Is the Minister aware that the Government announced 42 major road schemes, many of which were are absolutely right not to increase the level of ethanol sat on the stocks ready to go but had never been above 5% until we have a better evidence base for its approved by Labour. We are getting on with them and sustainability? Is he also aware—I declare an interest at bringing forward a number of projects, and we are this point—that there is evidence that ethanol levels cracking on with that right now. above 5% play havoc with older vehicles’ fuel systems, including those of classic and historic vehicles? If we Chi Onwurah: In his autumn statement, the Chancellor have to go above 5%, will he ensure that the pumps are announced that he would bring forward investment in properly labelled? the Tyne and Wear Metro—investment that was originally secured by the previous Labour Government. What he Norman Baker: I entirely sympathise with my right did not say was that that was an accounting sleight of hon. Friend, who makes an important point. I expect hand that will not lead to one extra metre of track being that there is a possibility that the European Commission refurbished or one extra job this year. Now that the will review the matter before January 2014, when the Chancellor is for turning, will the Secretary of State requirement for petrol stations to supply a 5% blend listen to Opposition Members and bring forward real officially ends. The UK Government also have a power plans for infrastructure investment in the north-east to to require a 5% blend to be supplied beyond that point. get the economy moving? In any case, I would expect industry to ensure that a protection grade of E5 will continue beyond that point Justine Greening: The hon. Lady raises an important and I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend’s point point about the Metro. We are getting on with that about labelling. project. As she knows, any transport project, once it gets agreement, needs to follow a number of steps Transport Infrastructure Projects before it is in a position to go ahead. We are pulling forward our investment in the Metro and I hope that 5. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): the hon. Lady, as someone who represents Newcastle, What recent progress she has made on transport will greatly welcome that. infrastructure projects announced in the autumn statement. [114044] Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend congratulate the east-west rail consortium 10. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) and the local authorities that have contributed funds (Lab): What recent progress she has made on transport that mean that the Bletchley to Oxford and Aylesbury infrastructure projects announced in the autumn line is in great shape? statement. [114049] Justine Greening: I will. It is part of the unprecedented The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): investment that is now going into our Victorian railway The Government are not just fixing the disgraceful network. I believe that the scheme has the potential to legacy of debt left to us by the Labour party but are make a huge difference, which is why we gave it the also building for our country’s success in future—and green light to go to the next step. I am delighted to see that means investing in transport. At the autumn statement private investment going in alongside public investment we announced £2.5 billion more in transport investment, and the involvement of local stakeholders and I think building on the £30 billion set out in the spending that the project will make a huge difference. review. An update on the progress made on the priority infrastructure investments identified in the 2011 national Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Among infrastructure plan was published alongside the Budget the projects announced in the autumn statement were in March. the electrification of northern rail links. The Secretary of State will be aware that two of the UK’s most Mr Bain: The debt plan is not going very well, because picturesque and economically important lines are the borrowing has gone up £3.9 billion this year above what Lakes line to Windermere and the Furness line, which it was at the equivalent stage last year. Construction run through my constituency. Neither of them are output fell in April by 13% and long-term unemployment electrified and both run the risk of losing their direct 431 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 432 connection to Manchester airport. Will she meet a Justine Greening: This Government and our decisions small, cross-party delegation to make sure we can fix are having a major impact. I do not need to take any these challenges? lectures or lessons from the Labour party, which had a failed aviation strategy, no rail strategy at all and made Justine Greening: I would be absolutely delighted to. absolutely no investment on the roads compared with The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that we are what we are putting in. Frankly, the brass neck of it is getting on with electrification in a way the previous unbelievable. We are getting on with building our country Government never did. We have already announced for the future in a way that the previous Government several hundred miles of electrification. That is one of never did. We are investing more and we will do more. I the key things I am looking at as we finalise the high-level look forward to hearing him congratulate us when we output specification package, which I will announce do. shortly. I would be very happy to meet him and his delegation to look at what that means locally and how Mr Speaker: I hear the Secretary of State’s message we can make sure that we can improve his local transport but we have a lot of questions to get through. system too. Cycling Safety Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): It is very important that the electrification schemes go 6. Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland ahead according to plan, but does the Secretary of State West) (Lab): What steps her Department is taking to agree that the northern hub must be funded in full to improve cycling safety. [114045] bring the £4 billion-plus investment and improvement in services across the whole of the north? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker): Last year I set up the cycling stakeholder Justine Greening: There is no doubt that the people forum, which comprises representatives from cycling supporting the northern hub have made a powerful groups, motoring organisations and local authorities. A case. In the past two weeks I have been in Leeds, sub-group has been established to look specifically at Manchester and Sheffield and all of them have reiterated safety issues. Good progress is being made on coming to me why this project matters so much. Like the rest of up with ideas and actions to improve cycle safety. the Government I have to cut my cloth to be able to Earlier this week I announced a £15 million fund to afford what we are announcing, but we have already improve safety for cyclists outside London by tackling taken some important steps on this project. I will be dangerous junctions. This is in addition to the £15 million setting out the next steps across the railway network in fund awarded to Transport for London in March for the HLOS—high level output specification—statement the same purpose. and I have no doubt the hon. Lady will take an interest inwhatIhavetosay. Mrs Hodgson: Figures from his Department and independent analysis have shown that more cyclists are Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): People killed in collisions with heavy goods vehicles than any throughout the west country have warmly welcomed other kind of vehicle. Will the Secretary of State therefore the electrification of the Great Western railway line stop the trial of longer HGVs that her Department has through Chippenham and Bath. They also look forward enacted and give serious consideration to the proposals to the redoubling of the Kemble to Swindon line. Will from the cycling stakeholder forum for a proper plan to the Secretary of State look at whether it would be useful improve cyclist safety and to increase cycle use? to have interchange between that line and the historic Swindon to Cricklade line? Norman Baker: I have already referred to the cycling stakeholder forum, which met yesterday and which I Justine Greening: I would be delighted to look at that. attended. We are looking at safety issues very seriously, I know my hon. Friend has raised this issue before. We as the hon. Lady would expect. I do not think it is a are determined to improve connectivity. Looking far question of how long lorries are. The particular issue longer term, High Speed 2 will do that for many parts of with HGVs is about lorries turning left and catching the country and I am determined to make sure that his cyclists on the inside. That is one reason why I have now part of the country continues to get more investment in given permission for all local authorities across the addition to the Great Western line investment that is country to install Trixi mirrors to pick up those manoeuvres. already going in and the new intercity express programme It is also why the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, trains that will also give him more capacity. my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), is looking at issues relating to the John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): information available to the driver in the cab. But the Secretary of State and the Chancellor need to recognise that announcing something is one thing, but Road Infrastructure actually doing something about it is completely different. The breakdown of the autumn statement total suggests 7. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): that only 17% was due to be made in the last financial What steps she is taking to invest in road infrastructure. year. In this year, with the country back in recession, [114046] only a further 5% of the total is due to be spent. Regardless of the issues with the level of influence the The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): right hon. Lady has with the Chancellor, can she really The 2010 spending review committed investment of tell the House that she thinks this is having sufficient £2.3 billion for major road improvements over the next impact? four years. We also committed to investment of £614 million 433 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 434 towards local road projects. The 2011 autumn statement I agree that early involvement with business is helpful provided a further £1 billion investment for strategic and desirable, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the roads. Member for Skipton and Ripon on the work he has done on the issue. I know that my colleague, the hon. Mr Raab: I thank the Secretary of State for that Member for Hemel Hempstead, wrote to him about it answer. Surrey pays more revenue to the Exchequer last week, and has challenged the Highways Agency to than any part of the country outside London, but it has minimise the cost of the signs, including by engaging the third-worst roads and, taking traffic volumes into with local contractors and interest groups such as those account, gets the second-lowest funding of all counties my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon for highways maintenance. What steps is she taking to refers to. repair and maintain Surrey’s roads so that the county can continue to generate high revenue for Britain? Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) rose—

Justine Greening: I agree that is important. Actually, Mr Speaker: Order. We now come to question 8— the latest statistics published by the Department suggest [Interruption.]—oreven9. that Surrey road conditions are slightly higher than average. Of the 117 local authorities where we allocate Motoring Costs highway maintenance funding, Surrey falls into the top 15 and we are providing £61 million. In addition, my hon. Friend will know that we are focused on important 9. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What steps she is schemes; we are providing £24 million towards the taking to support motorists and the haulage industry; Walton bridge scheme that is now under construction. and if she will make a statement. [114048] We are willing to put in that investment, and it will make a big difference on the ground. The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): I have taken a number of steps to reduce motorists’ Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Roads are a very important costs. We are working with the Ministry of Justice to part of any sustainable transport structure. Unfortunately, tackle the cost of insurance fraud, including fraudulent the Secretary of State turned down Halton’s bid for a whiplash claims. We are working with the fuel industry sustainable transport fund, and I am in correspondence to ensure the transparency of fuel costs and that wholesale with the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the price reductions are passed on. We have halved the tolls hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), on the issue. on the Humber bridge. We are working with the Motorists Can the Secretary of State confirm whether any other Forum on improving garage experiences for consumers, area has been asked to rework and resubmit its bid? If and as well as freezing fees for MOTs, driving tests and so, can she tell me why it has, but not Halton? licensing, in the logistics growth review we supported £1 billion of further investment to improve the capacity Justine Greening: We had a rigorous process for looking and resilience of the strategic roads network. at all the bids; they were considered by a panel of experts that we appointed. Some of the bids were modified Mr Speaker: We knew it would be worth waiting for. in the light of the reaction of the independent panel, and we took our investment decisions on that basis. Robert Halfon: Thousands of hard-pressed motorists, and me, are so excited that the Government cut fuel Brown Tourist Signs duty this week that I lost my train of thought as another Labour tax rise was cancelled. 8. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What progress she has made on her review of the use of I thank the Secretary of State for her outspoken brown tourist signs. [114047] support and for the pressure she has put on oil companies to bear their share of responsibility for the high price of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport petrol and diesel at the pumps. Will she carry on putting (Norman Baker): The review of brown tourist signs is that pressure on oil companies to ease the pressures on making good progress and we expect to publish our motorists? findings later this year. We are currently reviewing stakeholder comments on the existing requirements so Justine Greening: I very much welcome those comments. that a package of options and a recommendation can The Government are working hard across the board, in be presented to Ministers. both the Department for Transport and, of course, the Treasury, to make sure that we keep the cost of motoring Julian Smith: I am glad the Minister shares my passion as low as possible. In fact, the AA says that Tuesday’s for brown signs, but can he assure me that the Highways delay to the fuel duty increase, today’s announcement, Agency will work much more closely with business and my call for fuel price transparency have before removing brown signs? The agency was reckless “placed this government at the forefront of looking out for the in removing the sign on the A1 upgrade in Masham. interests of drivers, business and families.” Would the Minister like to join me for a pint of Theakston’s I really welcome that, and we will continue to work hard or Black Sheep so that he can see the evidence for on behalf of motorists. himself?

Norman Baker: My colleague, the Under-Secretary of Road Congestion (Shipley) State for Transport, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), might take that pint rather than me, 11. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): If she will make although I am always happy to have a pint of an assessment of the level of congestion on roads in Theakston’s—or anything else for that matter. Shipley constituency. [114050] 435 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 436

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport efforts to raise awareness of the franchise renewal process (Norman Baker): The Department for Transport purchases and, in particular, the implications for Sutton residents, journey time data from the Trafficmaster satellite navigation who may find that the through-trains from which they fleet tracking and traffic information service, and provides have benefited for many years stop short of Blackfriars, it, free, to west Yorkshire’s local authorities. The data cutting their access to north London and Crossrail? can be used to make assessments of road congestion in their areas. It is for the local highway authority—in this Mrs Villiers: My right hon. Friend will appreciate case, the city of Bradford metropolitan district council—to that extensive advertising budgets are a thing of the make any such assessment. past in the age of austerity, but we will do our very best to make sure that people are aware of the consultation. Philip Davies: Shipley constituency has some of the We are aware of his concerns about the Wimbledon most congested roads not only in the Bradford district, loop; my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon but across west Yorkshire. Not least among those is the (Stephen Hammond) barely gives me a moment’s rest road between Baildon and Shipley. A Shipley eastern on the issue. Network Rail has concerns about operational relief road would not only help local residents with that issues at Blackfriars, but those are not impossible to congestion but give a stimulus to economic growth surmount. No final decisions have been made. We will across the Bradford district. What can the Minister do consider all the representations on the Wimbledon loop to ensure that that kind of scheme gets a share of the and on all relevant matters in response to the consultation. funding that his Department is giving out?

Norman Baker: My hon. Friend is assiduous in making Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): Page 28 of the case for his constituents, and I understand why he the Minister’s consultation document states that future puts the case for the road he mentioned. As part of the Thameslink services may serve Sevenoaks as well as localism agenda, we consulted earlier this year on proposals Dartford and Orpington. Will the rail Minister confirm to devolve funding for major local authority schemes that, if those services go ahead, they will include a stop for the period after 2015, so it will be for the new local at Lewisham, and will be in addition to, and not a transport body covering west Yorkshire to decide the replacement for, existing services that run from that priorities for available funding, and of course to involve station? the local enterprise partnership—Leeds city region LEP. That is the direction of travel that I recommend to my Mrs Villiers: As I have said, no final decisions have hon. Friend. been made on what goes into the ultimate franchise; that is what the consultation is all about. I will make Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): The area sure that the hon. Lady’s representations are properly north of Leeds and Bradford does indeed have some of considered when the consultation closes. the most congested roads in the country; that is a problem that is shared cross-constituency. When will we Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): Now that the get a decision on the Leeds trolley bus scheme, which consultation on rail decentralisation is drawing to a will help in that corridor? close, will the Minister or the Secretary of State devolve responsibility for south-eastern suburban rail services Norman Baker: The Secretary of State and I are to city hall as a matter of urgency, so that it can drive up actively considering that matter at the moment. My standards on the south-eastern suburban networks in hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg exactly the same way as it did with London Overground? Mulholland) will understand that we are talking about cutting-edge technology, as there is no such scheme Mrs Villiers: This is an important issue. We are already in this country, so we have to be very careful in interested in ways of devolving more decision making our assessment of the proposal, but we hope to make a about our railways, so that it is closer to the local decision very shortly. communities served, but we have to make sure that we take into account the interests of all users of relevant Rail Franchises rail services, whether they are within or outside the London boundary. We will make an announcement in 12. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): due course on the results of our consultation on the What steps her Department has taken to publicise the decentralisation of rail decisions. consultation on the combined Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise. [114051] Double-decker Trains The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): The Thameslink consultation was published on 24 May 2012 on the Department’s 13. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What website. On the same day, I wrote to the relevant MPs consideration she is giving to the reintroduction of and a press notice was issued. On 13 June, Department double-decker trains on the rail network. [114052] for Transport officials wrote to MPs and local councils, further publicising the consultation document and details The Minister of State, Department for Transport of the upcoming consultation events. (Mrs Theresa Villiers): A report prepared by Network Rail in 2007 concluded that the introduction of double- Tom Brake: I thank the Minister for her response. decker trains on the current UK rail network would May I encourage her, the bidders, Network Rail, London require extensive modification to structures and stations TravelWatch and Passenger Focus to redouble their and was not economically viable. 437 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 438

Although such trains operate in a number of European Mr Speaker: It is still T2, but we are grateful to countries, the larger loading gauge used in continental the hon. Gentleman. Mr Sheerman has withdrawn his Europe allows the use of taller, wider trains than is question T1. possible in the UK. The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): It has been a busy couple of months in the Department Mr Hollobone: Other nations seem to make a success for Transport. We have announced our plans to work of having double-decker trains, and we used to have with petrol retailers to get a better deal for motorists at them on some suburban services in this country. I urge the pump. We have helped local authorities to unlock my right hon. Friend the Minister to ask Network Rail economic growth with our £266 million local sustainable to think again, because lots of commuters on congested transport fund announcement. We have set out the next trains would want us to replicate the success of double- steps for attracting greater investment in the strategic decker buses by having double-decker trains. road network, issuing rail franchise consultations on the inter-city east coast and south-eastern franchises. Mrs Villiers: I welcome my hon. Friend’s interest in With other Government Departments, we are working this issue, and I have looked at it. The reality, however, extremely hard to put in place the final planning and is that double-decker trains that were run in the past by preparations to make sure that we host a fantastic British Rail were claustrophobic, it took a long time for Olympic and Paralympic games this summer. passengers to get on and off, and they deployed the sort of slam-door stock that we have tried to phase out. The John Pugh: I thank the Minister for the additional shape of the UK rail network, the size of the bridges, £20 million for Merseyside Transport. Without wishing the distance between rail tracks and the distance between to appear ungrateful, what is happening to the appalling the tracks and the platform mean that we cannot run rolling stock on the northern franchise, which is wholly the large double-decker trains that work in Europe. I unsuitable, particularly on the Southport-Manchester am afraid that that there are much more cost-effective link? ways to expand capacity, with longer trains and more frequent services, which is what the Government are Justine Greening: There is a significant piece of work doing. under way to look at what we can do to improve rolling stock across the network, including looking at what Driving Licence Renewals additional new rolling stock we need, and how the existing rolling stock can cascade to improve services 14. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What her for others on the line. I have no doubt that my right policy is on the issuing of renewal notices for driving hon. Friend the Minister of State, who is responsible for licences. [114054] railways, is listening closely and will look into the issues that he has just raised. The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I If the photograph on a driver’s licence needs to be understand that the road casualty figures for 2011 were renewed, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency sends published this morning and, sadly, show the first increase a renewal notice 56 days before the licence expires. If since 2003 in deaths and serious injuries. Road casualty the licence needs to be renewed because the driver has reduction targets commanded cross-party support for reached the age of 70 or has a shorter-period licence nearly three decades and played a big part in sending a due to a medical condition, the renewal notice goes out strong message from Government about how committed 90 days before the licence expires. they were to reducing deaths and serious injuries on our roads. Those targets were scrapped by the Secretary of Mr Bone: Someone close to my heart had a driving State’s predecessor. Is she prepared to revisit that decision? licence that expired, and did not receive such a notice. Many in the road safety sector felt that that was a Mrs Bone is following Transport questions closely, so mistake, and the figures this morning tend to suggest would it not be helpful—there must be tens of thousands that bringing back targets would help in the battle to of people who are driving with expired licences—to reduce deaths and serious injuries. include on the licence, in clear, large print, the expiry date? Justine Greening: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that as far as I am concerned, one accident is too many. Justine Greening: My hon. Friend makes a perfectly The figures are disappointing. We are concerned to reasonable point. Holders of a photocard driving licence make sure we improve our road safety record. Many of are required by law to renew the photograph on the the things that we are doing, including managed motorways, licence every 10 years so that it remains a good likeness can help with that. I think he is wrong to draw too many of the driver. I take his points on board—I absolutely conclusions from the latest figures, because we know do not want to see drivers caught out—and, as he is that we had some exceptional weather in that period. aware, we are looking more broadly at how we can That is one of the reasons why there was such a change, make sure that our driving licence works well for motorists, but I am happy to look at what we can continue to do to not least investigating when we can begin to put the work with all sorts of stakeholders to improve road country’s flag on it for a change. safety. It is an issue that this Government take incredibly Topical Questions seriously. T3. [114060] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): T2. [114059] John Pugh (Southport) (LD): If she will The latest figures from Sustrans show a 40 million make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. increase in the number of cycling trips in 2011 Is this topical question 2 or topical question 1, Mr compared with 2010—a very welcome 18% rise. I and Speaker? many others, including British Cycling, welcome the 439 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 440 funding that has been provided by the Government, Government will introduce legislation on HS2 in the particularly most recently the £15 million that has been coming Parliament, and that she continues to have the provided towards dangerous junctions around the full support of the Chancellor and the Prime Minister country, a key feature of the safer cycling campaign in in taking forward HS2, which is so vital not just for The Times. What steps is the Secretary of State taking England, but for Scotland? to make sure that local authorities match this money to do even more work on more junctions, rather than Justine Greening: The short answer to the hon. ducking their responsibilities when the Government Gentleman’s question is yes. We are planning to introduce step up? the hybrid Bill. HS2 is vital for the long-term success of this country. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for T5. [114062] Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): this support for our measures, which include large sums Following on from that question, given the of money allocated yesterday through the local sustainable Government’s vision for a truly national high-speed rail transport fund, which will also benefit cycling. The sum network extending to Scotland, I welcome my right of £50 million will be available to local authorities on a hon. Friend’s meeting with the Scottish Transport match-funding basis. We are encouraging them to Minister. Will she continue to work very closely with contribute, and the more they contribute, the more the Scottish Government on the project, not least to likely it is that they will be successful in securing money ensure that any short-term rail improvements, such as from the Government for their dangerous junctions. the Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification, can be done in a way that is compatible with future high-speed rail? T9. [114066] Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Following last week’s publication of the east Justine Greening: I found my meeting with the Scottish coast franchise, does the Minister think passengers on Government extremely helpful, and I am keen to work the east coast should expect an eye-watering 8% above with them on their plans for high-speed rail north of the inflation fare increase, which my constituents travelling border. Obviously, they will have to look at the rest of on the west coast main line will face in years ahead? their investment plans in the meantime. That discussion is under way and we will pursue it over the coming The Minister of State, Department for Transport months. (Mrs Theresa Villiers): This Government are determined to get the cost of running the railways down. That is the Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): If we are to make way we deal with the concerns that passengers have real improvements in cycling, we must ensure that it is about fares. If the Opposition think concerns about considered properly as part of all decisions and policies fares started in May 2010, they are living on another on road use, so will the Minister consider the Cycle planet. We need reform to get the costs down so that we Stakeholder Forum’s proposal to add a mandatory risk can respond to passengers, and it is time Labour started assessment and consultation on cycling to every policy producing its own reform plans if it insists on rejecting review that affects road users? That would have no cost ours. implications but would make a real difference to transport policy and would show that the Government consider cycling a key part of transport policy. T4. [114061] Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): My right hon. Friend is aware that I have had Norman Baker: The Cycle Stakeholder Forum is constituents in tears in my advice surgeries who are producing some useful suggestions and doing some blighted by the HS2 project and trapped in their good work. The process that is under way means that all homes, unable to sell them. Can she reassure my its suggestions will be properly assessed by the Department, constituents that she is determined to make sure that and we will respond to those in detail later this year. no private home owner has to pay with the value of their home for the project? What update can she give us T6. [114063] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Following on the consultation to get a decent, fair compensation the very welcome news that we have ended Labour’s scheme in place? fuel duty, may I ask the Secretary of State whether she will continue to promote the use of alternative fuels in The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): heavy haulage lorries, as practised by Downton and I know that the High Speed 2 line is already causing Howard Tenens in my constituency? uncertainty for many individuals, communities and businesses that will be affected along the route. We have Justine Greening: We are very keen to do that. In fact, introduced the exceptional hardship scheme. As my my hon. Friend might be aware that we have started the hon. Friend knows, I am about to have a meeting later low-carbon truck demonstration trial, which now involves today to talk to some of the key stakeholders, including £10 million of funding for investigating how we can herself, about their concerns. Having listened to many encourage haulage companies to operate in a lower concerns and looked at the effectiveness of the exceptional carbon way. He mentioned the fuel duty impact. Actually, hardship scheme, we are drawing up long-term proposals hauliers will be about £4,900 better off on average. The for compensation, and we will be consulting on those Labour party is interested in carping, but the reality is very shortly. that we are delivering for people on the ground in a way that it never did. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): On that point, does the Secretary of State agree Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): The big society that one of the best ways of ending the uncertainty is to pervades every Government Department. What is the reach a quick decision? Will she confirm that the Secretary of State’s definition of the big society? 441 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 442

Justine Greening: It is people stepping up to the plate WOMEN AND EQUALITIES and seeing what they can do to help their local community. We are very good at doing that in times of crisis, particularly in places such as London, but I think that The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked— we should be doing it every day of the week. That is what it is about. Mr Speaker: Gerry Sutcliffe? Not here.

T7. [114064] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) Welfare Reform (Disabled People) (LD): Helicopter flights cause significant noise disturbance for people living under flight paths and 2. Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): they also benefit from reduced fuel taxes. Will the What assessment she has made of the cumulative effect Minister look at schemes such as those adopted in of welfare reform legislation on disabled people. Paris and Los Angeles to tackle helicopter noise and [114068] also look at the unfair tax advantage that helicopter operators have? 5. Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): What assessment she has made of the cumulative effect of welfare reform legislation on disabled people. [114072] Mrs Villiers: My right hon. Friend will appreciate that fuel duty is a matter for the Chancellor. We do appreciate the irritation that helicopter noise can cause— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work anyone who works in this building gets irritated by them and Pensions (Maria Miller): The Government consult buzzing overhead so often—and will consider it as part fully with stakeholders on the impact of policy changes of our consultation on a sustainable framework for UK and produce robust equality impact assessments, as aviation. required by the Equality Act 2010 and its predecessor, the Equality Act 2006.

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Gemma Doyle: I am sure the Minister will be aware of (PC): Like many Members, I eagerly await publication Scope’s recently published report, which labels the of the high-level output specification and the statement Government’s impact assessments as wholly inappropriate of funds next month. As matters stand, Wales would when applied to one reform at a time. Does she accept see electrification only of our rail network to Cardiff, that, unless the impact of welfare reform is considered compared with electrification of 40% of UK railways cumulatively, the human cost of her Government’s austerity and the electrification of the Glasgow to London route measures will be completely overlooked? in 1974. I invite the Department to make up for this historical injustice by including electrification of the Maria Miller: I understand the hon. Lady’s point, but valleys network, the north Wales coast line and the she knows that neither the Institute for Fiscal Studies main line to Swansea? nor the Treasury have a methodology to assess such impacts in the way she describes, but I remind her that Justine Greening: I can assure the hon. Gentleman we have impact assessments and equality assessments that the Government are looking closely at what we can for every policy in order to ensure that all the changes do to improve the railway system in Wales. He will have that we make benefit the people whom we are trying to to wait for the HLOS statement itself, but I am absolutely support. determined to ensure that we see investment go to all parts of the country. It is a key part of what the Nia Griffith: The Government’s Welfare Reform Act Government want to do—rebalance the economy—and 2012 will force families to make children with disabilities that absolutely includes Wales. share a bedroom with their siblings, regardless of the difficulties and disruption that that may cause. Will the Minister prevail upon colleagues in the Department for T8. [114065] Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): The Work and Pensions to look again at the issue before the Dutch now have two thirds of their minor rural road 2012 Act is fully implemented, to show some compassion network covered by speed restrictions of 40 mph and to let disabled children have a bedroom of their approximately, as they found those even more effective own, where necessary, instead of wasting Government than 20 mph approximately zones in urban areas. Will money pursuing a case in the Supreme Court on the the Minister please confirm that he will take this issue? evidence into account when drafting the forthcoming guidance on setting speed limits and set out what other Maria Miller: The hon. Lady is right to make sure measures should be taken to protect rural cyclists? that we have the right provision to support families in our communities, particularly those with disabled people, Norman Baker: I am happy to confirm that the and that is why we have made sure that local budgets Department is giving local councils much more freedom and funding are available to local authorities so that in how they use the road network, including the classification they can make such discretionary payments. Every family of roads and the speed limits that are set. I hope that my situation is different, and we need to take those differences hon. Friend will be aware of the extra freedom for into account. 20 mph limits, in particular. Her point on 40 mph limits is well made and I will ensure that my fellow Transport George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): Can my Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel hon. Friend tell the House whether a care component Hempstead (Mike Penning), is made aware of her comments will be built into universal credit, whether it will be when he returns. subject to work conditionality, whether carer’s allowance 443 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 444 will be assessed within universal credit, and whether Maria Miller: We can of course look into the detail of households in receipt of disability living allowance and the point that my hon. Friend raises. She is absolutely personal independence payment will be subject to the right also to highlight the very valuable work of user-led benefits cap? organisations such as the Outlook centre, which can provide bespoke support for families who are dealing Maria Miller: My hon. Friend got a lot of detail into with benefit claims or other issues to do with their loved that question, and he will know that we have looked at ones’ lives. That is why we have launched a significant the issue very carefully. Disability living allowance will programme to try to expand and support more user-led not be included in the benefit cap, and importantly we organisations up and down the country in doing similar intend to raise the equivalent in universal credit of work in all our communities. employment and support allowance from £32.25 today to about £77 in future, ensuring that it includes more Default Retirement Age support for those who cannot go to work. 3. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): 9. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): When How many people have continued to work as a result of disabled people are wrongly found fit for work, it causes the abolition of the default retirement age. [114070] a great deal of distress, and of course it is costly to have unnecessary appeals. So the falling rate of successful The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions work capability assessment appeals is welcome and (Steve Webb): The Government’s impact assessment shows some improvement, but three out of 10 being estimates that after one year about 6,000 people will wrongly found fit for work is still too high a figure. have continued in work as a result of removing the What more can the Government do to improve the DRA—in other words, between 4% and 7% of employees process, particularly in terms of applying sanctions to aged 65 or over. Atos when it gets an assessment wrong, so that we can get more decisions right first time? [114076] Andrew Selous: Does my hon. Friend agree that older workers enable knowledge and skills to be transferred Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to from one generation to the next, and that putting a want to drive through more good decision making in “best before” date on workers was unacceptable that process, and we are doing so across the board by discrimination that this Government have justly got rid working with Atos to make sure that it adheres to the of? contracts we have with it, and through the changes that we are making as a result of the Harrington reports, but Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is right. One of the importantly mandatory reconsideration, which begins lasting legacies of this coalition will be that, after years in April 2013 for all decisions on benefits, will ensure of its being talked about, we finally abolished age that more decisions are right first time. discrimination in the workplace. To give him an example, Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The research has found that McDonald’s restaurants that Government say that their welfare reforms are intended employ people over 60 have, on average, far higher to enable more disabled people to get into work, but a customer satisfaction than those that do not. case has been raised with us about a young man who is a wheelchair user, had been desperate to work, found a Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Is the Minister job but had to turn it down because he would have aware that the experiences of men and women who needed to move and could not find affordable adapted work beyond retirement age are very different? Nearly housing. Why are the Government delaying the reasonable two thirds of those who work beyond retirement age are adjustment provisions that would help such people to women, and of those most—nearly two thirds—work in work? lower-skilled jobs, whereas, in contrast, the smaller group of men are working in higher-skilled jobs. What Maria Miller: The hon. Lady will know that we have is he going to do about dealing with the poverty of a broad range of support available for people such as women in old age? the gentleman she refers to through the access to work scheme, for which we are increasing funding by about Steve Webb: The hon. Lady is right. Successive £15 million over the spending review period, and through Governments have failed to deliver an adequate pension local housing payments, such as the one I referred to in to women. That is why we are reforming the state a previous answer, in order to ensure that local authorities pension, as the Prime Minister confirmed on Monday, have the flexibility to support such individuals, so that to deliver a pension that is simple, decent and, in they can get into work and stay in work. particular, treats women fairly for the first time.

Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): Will my hon. Friend Forced Marriage commend the work of disabled people’s user-led organisations, particularly the Outlook centre in Long 6. Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): What steps Eaton in my constituency, which I visited last week? she has taken to ensure that the criminalisation of The parent of a service user told me that they were forced marriage does not discourage victims from doing a passport renewal form for their daughter and bringing complaints forward. [114073] were not happy about having to complete the children’s section of the form for her because, although she is 40 The Secretary of State for the Home Department and years old, she has learning difficulties. They felt that Minister for Women and Equalities (Mrs Theresa May): this was inappropriate. Will my hon. Friend kindly look Forced marriage is a hidden problem, and criminalising into the matter? this abhorrent act will give victims the option of seeking 445 Oral Answers28 JUNE 2012 Oral Answers 446 the toughest form of justice. To ensure that victims and Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): The whole House recognises others are not discouraged from coming forward, civil the difficulty of getting certain groups of people into remedies will remain available to them. We are also work. Does the Minister agree that payment by results providing a package of support to ensure that victims is the way to ensure that the right level of resources is know what help is available, and we are better equipping targeted at those who are hardest to help? practitioners to deal with cases of forced marriage more effectively. Lynne Featherstone: My hon. Friend highlights exactly the right point. Work programme providers are encouraged Jackie Doyle-Price: I thank my right hon. Friend for by payment by results, which means that when a young her answer. However, victims will clearly be intimidated black man comes in, the providers will not get paid in reporting family members who are committing these unless they remove the barriers that are prohibiting him crimes. What more can be done to encourage other from getting work, whether through education, training, family members and potential witnesses to report the skills or whatever else. crimes, and what more can she do to raise awareness that this practice will not be tolerated? Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): Is not the fact that young black men are still Mrs May: My hon. Friend raises an extremely important being hit hardest of all by the Government’s economic point. We have retained the twin-track approach of the failure? Should not the Equalities Minister commit to criminalised route or the civil remedy route precisely publishing a full audit of what is happening to young because of a concern about those who may not want to men from different BME backgrounds and the impact report people because of the criminalisation aspect. that that is having? The latest figures show that Raising awareness is incredibly important. That is why unemployment among young white men has gone up by we are putting in place a support package, working with three percentage points since the election, and among practitioners to help them to identify the signs that young black men by 14 percentage points. There is somebody might be about to be taken away for a forced currently no targeted support for young black men in marriage. We are also going to run a summer awareness getting apprenticeships, and the Work programme clearly campaign aimed at young people so that they understand is not working. Faced with this growing crisis, will the signs as regards not only something that might Ministers now take serious action to provide the support happen to themselves but what is happening to their for jobs and opportunities that young people from all friends, and are more willing to come forward. backgrounds need, and consider a bankers’ bonus tax so that they can do so? Black and Minority Ethnic Communities Lynne Featherstone: The Work programme introduces the conditions that will get young black men into work. 7. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) That is something that never happened under the Labour (Lab): What assessment she has made of the potential Government. The number of people from ethnic minorities effect of recent labour market trends on black and who are in work is up by 179,000 compared with 2010. minority ethnic communities. [114074] Moreover, on the issue of BME apprenticeships, which the right hon. Lady raised, 2010-11 saw the highest ever The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): Tackling percentage of BME apprentices start their training. The unemployment is a priority for this Government. Our labour market trend for the number of people starting approach is to support people according to their individual apprenticeships has gone up significantly in recent years, needs and circumstances rather than segregate them from 167,000 in 2003 to 457,200 in 2010-11. We are according to ethnicity. That is why we have introduced doing what Labour failed to do. personalised support through the Work programme, the youth contract, and the Get Britain Working measures. 8. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): What recent The significantly increased flexibility that we have given discussions she has had with her ministerial colleagues to providers and Jobcentre Plus means that interventions on unemployment levels in black and minority ethnic can be tailored to address an individual’s specific needs. communities. [114075]

Thomas Docherty: Given, however, that 44.4% of Lynne Featherstone: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the economically active 16 to 24-year-old black people are reply that I gave some moments ago. without work, compared with just 20% of white people, is not this policy not working? Jim McGovern: Following on from what has been said, black and ethnic minority people seem to figure Lynne Featherstone: The hon. Gentleman raises the higher in the unemployment figures in Scotland. Has issue of the number of young black men who are out of any of the Ministers present discussed this matter with work. However, the recent press coverage gave inaccurate any Minister in the Scottish Government? figures. Figures from the Office for National Statistics show that less than a third of black men aged 18 to 24 Lynne Featherstone: We work closely with the Scottish are unemployed. The Government recognise that that Government on this issue. As I said, I refer the hon. figure is still too high, which is why we have introduced Gentleman to the answer that I have given. We have put tailored and personalised support to help people get in place a Work programme that will deliver results; back into the labour market. Labour never did. 447 28 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 448

Business of the House Minister has been remarkably reluctant to do. Will the Government accept the decision of the House on this matter? 11.33 am The revelations that Barclays bank engaged in Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of “widespread”market manipulation to maximise its profits the House please give us the business for next week? are truly shocking. There are suggestions that other banks were also involved in rigging the LIBOR and The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young): EURIBOR rates. I know the Chancellor will make a The business for next week will be: statement after business questions, but does the Leader MONDAY 2JULY—Motion to approve Ways and Means of the House agree that such behaviour is “morally resolutions relating to the Finance Bill, followed by repugnant”? remaining stages of the Finance Bill (day 1). Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister published the TUESDAY 3JULY—Conclusion of remaining stages of House of Lords Reform Bill. The Opposition welcome the Finance Bill (day 2). this legislation. I have always voted for an elected second WEDNESDAY 4JULY—Estimates day (1st allotted day). Chamber and look forward to doing so again, this time There will be a debate on the work of the UK Border with Conservative Back Benchers joining us in the Agency, followed by a debate on UK-Turkey relations Division Lobby. When the Labour Government took and Turkey’s regional role. through legislation to remove hereditary peers—a simple six-clause Bill—there were nine days of debate. Why are Further details will be given in the Official Report. the Government planning to offer little more debate on [The details are as follows: There will be a debate on: the House of Lords Reform Bill, which is a much bigger UK-Turkey relations and Turkey’s regional role: 12th report and more complex piece of legislation? The Leader of from the Foreign Affairs Committee of Session 2010-12, the House is fond of saying that the House is not a HC 1567, and the Government response thereto, CM 8370.] legislative factory. The Queen’s Speech was short of Bills; time is not a problem. Will he undertake to At 7 pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding arrange future Government business to ensure that estimates, followed by a motion to approve a statutory Members have sufficient time to scrutinise that important instrument relating to terrorism. Bill? THURSDAY 5JULY—Proceedings on the Supply and I can understand Conservative MPs finding the Liberal Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill, followed by Democrat differentiation strategy increasingly infuriating— debate on a motion relating to VAT on air ambulance perhaps that explains why the Prime Minister and the fuel payments, followed by debate on a motion relating Education Secretary have jumped on the same bandwagon to the public administration Select Committee’s —but if the Liberal Democrats differentiate themselves recommendation for the Prime Minister’s adviser on from the coalition and the Conservatives do the same, Ministers’ interests to be empowered to instigate his where does that leave the Government? Perhaps the own investigations. Education Secretary, who wants to micro-manage schools, FRIDAY 6JULY—Private Members’ Bills. could pose this as an exam question: if two parties The provisional business for the week commencing come together and then differentiate themselves, what 9 July will include: does that leave? Based on the last few weeks, the answer MONDAY 9JULY—Second Reading of the House of is a complete shambles. Will the Leader of the House Lords Reform Bill (day 1). arrange in future business for Liberal Democrat and Conservative Ministers to share the speaking time to TUESDAY 10 JULY—Conclusion of Second Reading of give both parties ample opportunity to differentiate the House of Lords Reform Bill (day 2). themselves? WEDNESDAY 11 JULY—Debate on a motion relating to the sitting hours of the House of Commons. The subject We have known for months that the Chancellor is out for that debate has been nominated by the Backbench of touch with the country, but we did not realise until Business Committee. Following that, the Chairman of recently the extent to which he is out of touch with his Ways and Means is expected to name opposed private own ministerial colleagues. The Transport Secretary has business for consideration. spent weeks telling everyone that the increase in fuel duty announced in the Budget is going ahead, and on THURSDAY 12 JULY—Motion relating to the reform of Tuesday morning on the airwaves she was absolutely the Court of Justice of the European Union, followed clear that it would not be postponed. Later that day at by a motion on a European document relating to the 12.30 pm, Conservative Whips sent a briefing to all EU draft budget, followed by a motion on a European Tory MPs saying that freezing fuel duty would be document relating to EU human rights strategy. “hypocrisy of the worst kind”. FRIDAY 13 JULY—Private Members’ Bills. Two hours later, the Chancellor popped up at the Dispatch I should also like to inform the House that the Box to announce that he will, after all, freeze fuel duty. business in Westminster Hall for 5 July will be a debate Having humiliated the Transport Secretary, the Chancellor on PIP breast implants and regulation of cosmetic then forced the Economic Secretary to make her now interventions, followed by a debate on adoption. celebrated “Newsnight” appearance to explain the latest Budget U-turn, on the grounds—to quote her words—that Ms Eagle: The right hon. Gentleman has announced for next week a debate on a Backbench Business Committee “there isn’t much in the world that is certain”. motion on giving the adviser on the ministerial code the Given the disarray and panic in the Treasury bunker, power to initiate an investigation rather than waiting the Leader of the House might struggle to give an exact for the Prime Minister to ask for it, which this Prime figure, but how many Budget U-turns have we had to 449 Business of the House28 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 450 date? I wonder whether the Chancellor could write the fairly investigated, because he is not here to defend next Budget in pencil so that we can rub it all out again himself. It is in no one’s interest to have trial by media. when he changes his mind. The Leader of the House has announced two days of debate on the Finance Bill Sir George Young: I admire what my hon. Friend has next week. Will he now put his reputation on the line, just done in defending one of her predecessors—a man here and now, and tell us categorically that there will be with whom I served in the House from 1974 to 1983. As no more U-turns on this bungling Budget? Perhaps he she said, so far only one side of the story has been put should just give up and vote for our amendments next into the public domain, and it is imperative that the week. other side also be put forward, in the interests of the The Government have made the wrong choice on the friends and family of Ray Mawby. I would like to make economy—a double-dip recession made in Downing the appropriate inquiries to see how we might get the street, borrowing up, tax receipts down, living standards full story into the public domain, so that we can find down, no plan for growth. The Government’s economic out exactly what happened to him in the years to which policy is running out of road. The U-turn that the she referred. Chancellor needs to make is on his failed economic strategy. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I convey to the House the apologies of my hon. Friend the Member for North Sir George Young: On the point about the debate on East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), Chair of the Backbench the adviser to the Prime Minister, the hon. Lady is now Business Committee, who cannot be with us today asking us to do what her Government consistently owing to unavoidable personal business. refused to do, which was to allow the Prime Minister’s We are grateful for the time allocated to us by the adviser to initiate inquiries. She will have to listen to the Leader of the House and business managers, but it is response given by my ministerial colleague in the debate still difficult managing demand. Having said that, we that I have just announced, which was selected by the were grateful for the opportunity to suggest to him that Backbench Business Committee. the debate on the House’s sitting hours be on 11 July. However, we are still struggling with demand for the On the Barclays debacle, as the hon. Lady knows, my time allocated. Will he please reconsider the amount of right hon. Friend the Chancellor will make a statement, time allocated to the Backbench Business Committee? but it strikes me as a failure of the light-touch regime introduced by a previous Minister. Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman So far as the House of Lords is concerned, the and to the Backbench Business Committee for collaborating Opposition seem to be in a total muddle. They say that with the usual channels in enabling the House to have a they support the Bill but that they will oppose the proper debate about sitting hours in the relatively near programme motion, before they even know what it future. I take to heart what he has said about both the contains. I ask the hon. Lady, who I know supports quantity of time and the predictability. We are committed reform, to listen to what her leader said in his first to providing at least 27 days in the Chamber for the conference speech in 2010: Backbench Business Committee, and I will use my best “This generation has a chance—and a huge responsibility—to endeavours to give the hon. Gentleman adequate notice change our politics. We must seize it and meet the challenge… we of time and do what I can to find more time, if possible, need to finally elect the House of Lords after talking about it between now and the end of the Session, when I would for…a hundred years.” expect, in any event, to have the usual pre-recess That is what he said in 2010, yet yesterday the shadow Adjournment debate. Leader of the House of Lords said that “it is not a priority”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 27 June 2012; Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): As this week Vol. 738, c. 237.] has seen the visit to London of the renowned American The only thing that is consistent is the sheer opportunism economist, Dr Arthur Laffer, may we please have a of the Labour party on this subject. debate on the optimum level of taxation so that we have the opportunity to restate both the moral case and the On the usual knockabout about the coalition from economic case for lower taxation? the hon. Lady, I would simply say that two parties are now working together in government more harmoniously than one party did in government for 13 years. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We have two days on the Finance Bill, including a Finally, on fuel, I admire the cool performance of the debate on Third Reading, when that might be possible. I Economic Secretary in the face of some very aggressive would welcome such a debate. The Prime Minister said interviewing by Jeremy Paxman. The Opposition accuse yesterday—at this Dispatch Box, I think—that he believed the Government of a U-turn, but let us consider their in flatter, fairer taxes, which is why we have taken position. First, they introduced a fuel duty escalator— 2 million people out of tax altogether, reduced corporation [Interruption.] Secondly, they asked us not to go ahead tax and now have a lower top rate of tax to make with their tax rise. Thirdly, when we do not, they Britain competitive with the rest of the world. I look complain. The alphabet does not contain a letter describing forward to hearing my hon. Friend’s contributions on that manoeuvre. Third Reading of the Finance Bill on Tuesday.

Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Will my right Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Could we hon. Friend please provide a debate on setting up an have a debate about health service reorganisation and inquiry into the very serious allegations made against cuts, including plans to close four of the nine accident one of my predecessors, Raymond Mawby? These serious and emergency departments in west London, where the allegations, amounting to treason, need to be fully and local NHS says that without closure they will 451 Business of the House28 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 452

[Mr Andy Slaughter] Sir George Young: The particular usual channel that would handle those negotiations would be my right “literally run out of money”? hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary, the right hon. The right hon. Gentleman will know these hospitals Member for Derbyshire Dales (Mr McLoughlin). However, very well, as hospitals such as Hammersmith, Charing I note that in an exchange during yesterday’s debate on Cross, Central Mid and Ealing served his former the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill, the constituents, and they are much needed by the people Opposition were asked how many days they wanted for they serve. the Committee stage, and all that they said was “plenty”. As I have said, I hope very much that that they will enter into serious discussions so that this important Sir George Young: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I legislation can complete its progress through the House had an interest in the area he now represents. We are in an agreed and structured way. putting more resources into the NHS than were planned by the Labour party, but I will share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I know that amnesia State for Health and ask him to write to the hon. is now afflicting so many members of the Cabinet that it Gentleman about the proposed rationalisation to which is amazing that they manage to recognise one another he refers. when they meet, but the Leader of the House said earlier that the fuel escalator had been introduced by a Labour Government. It was not; it was introduced in Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): As co-chairman of 1993 by the Conservatives. the all-party group on carers, I ask my right hon. Friend to give an undertaking that, if the White Paper on My question, however, is about the statutory instrument social care is not published and a statement made on it which is to be debated next Wednesday, and which deals next week, we will have both that White Paper and a with terrorism. So far the Home Office is refusing to tell statement before the rise of the House for the summer us what it is about, and it has not been published. How recess—not least to give right hon. and hon. Members can we possibly scrutinise a statutory instrument on a the opportunity to study it during that recess? It would key matter next Wednesday if we are not even told what be good to see the White Paper, as I understand that it it is about? might include some enhanced rights and remedies for carers. Sir George Young: The motion will be on the Order Paper in good time for the debate on Wednesday. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and take this belated opportunity to congratulate him Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): personally on his knighthood. It is indeed our intention May we have a debate on the exposure of UK business to publish in the very near future the White Paper and men to personal hazard in Serbia as a result of article 359 the progress report on the reform of funding. We plan of the Serbian criminal code, which was condemned by to implement the recommendations of the Law a resolution of the European Parliament on 29 March Commission. I applaud my hon. Friend’s interest, and and which has resulted in the incarceration without trial that of the group he co-chairs. We are determined to do of my constituent Mr Nicholas Djivanovic since 28 March more for carers and to drive up carers’ rights. I very last year? Given Mr Djivanovic’s case, the advice must much hope that when the White Paper is produced, he be that investors considering Serbia should proceed will be reassured by some of its proposals. As I said, we with extreme caution, if at all. plan to bring it forward very shortly. Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern, and I very much hope that the consular service Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): is giving his constituent all the support that it can. I The Leader of the House has announced the Second cannot promise an early debate, but this strikes me as an Reading of the coalition’s House of Lords Reform Bill, appropriate subject for an Adjournment debate, or indeed, which gets two days’ debate. At the end of Tuesday’s if we have one, a debate on the pre-recess Adjournment. debate, after the question that the Bill be read a Second In the meantime, I will raise my hon. Friend’s constituency time has been put, is it the Government’s intention case with the appropriate Minister at the Foreign and immediately to hold the vote on any programme motion? Commonwealth Office.

Sir George Young: Yes, that would be our proposition—a Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): It is now proposition that we have adhered to for all the legislation eight months since the Department of Health announced we have produced so far. Discussions continue through that it would provide more money for the seven private the usual channels about the content of the programme finance initiative hospitals. Eight months on, those motion. I very much hope that the Opposition will enter trusts still do not know how much money they will into sensible and constructive discussions so that we receive. May we have an urgent statement from the can make good progress on this important piece of Department on when the money will be allocated? legislation. Sir George Young: Rather than waiting for a statement Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): What representations from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for has the Leader of the House received from Back Benchers, Health, I will write to him today and ask whether he can or indeed from the official Opposition, on the number correspond with the hon. Gentleman and answer his of days in the programme for the House of Lords question about when the resources to which he has Reform Bill? Just how many days are they seeking? referred will be made available. 453 Business of the House28 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 454

Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): Yesterday early-day motion 274, and I join the right hon. Gentleman the Associate Parliamentary Manufacturing Group held in congratulating Emily, who is, I believe, a member of a meeting to prepare a submission for the Heseltine Sale Harriers and who provides a great example of the review, which gives the Government an opportunity to ability to triumph over disability and bullying. I think look strategically at how it can support our country’s that the British team won 11 medals in Sweden, which competitiveness. Given the importance of the review, I bodes very well for the imminent Paralympics. believe that it is also important for Members to have their say. Will the Leader of the House be able to Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): May we have a debate commit himself to arranging a debate on the review in on who the Government thinks should be in our prisons? Government time and giving Members an opportunity Although nearly 4,000 burglars and 4,500 violent offenders to make clear their views on how we can increase our with 15 or more previous convictions were not sent to competitiveness? prison last year, the Government’s view is that there are Sir George Young: The Enterprise and Regulatory still far too many criminals in prison. Perhaps the Reform Bill is currently going through its stages, and it Government could explain why they have agreed to allow may be possible to debate the issue raised by my hon. Charles Taylor, the former Liberian President, to serve Friend when it returns to the Floor of the House. his 50-year prison sentence in this country. Surely, if we cannot afford to have British criminals sent to prison, My hon. Friend is right: the Chancellor and the we cannot afford to send former Liberian Presidents to Business Secretary have asked Lord Heseltine to undertake prison in this country either. an independent review of how spending Departments and other relevant public sector bodies interact with the private sector, and then to assess their capacity to Sir George Young: My view is that some people who develop pro-growth policies. The review will include a are not in prison should be and some people who are in benchmarking exercise comparing how we do with how prison should not be, but the issue of whether someone other countries do, and Lord Heseltine is engaging is given a prison sentence is primarily one for the courts comprehensively with all interested groups. He has said rather than Parliament. We recently passed a sentencing that he will publish his report in October, and it may be Bill which raised the thresholds for some minimum appropriate to hold a debate thereafter, possibly in sentences, and I am sure that that was welcomed by my Back-Bench business time. hon. Friend. As for the specific case to which he referred, I will raise it with my right hon. and learned Friend the Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): Lord Chancellor. Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 274, which stands in my name? Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Like many [That this House pays tribute to Emily Rawlins, of other people, I welcomed the appeal by my right hon. Manchester, who has triumphed over her learning disability Friend the shadow Chancellor for a cut in fuel duty to become a member of the Great Britain Athletics when he was interviewed on the “Today” programme. A Learning Disability Team, representing our country in few hours later, the Chancellor accepted it. That is, I Croatia, Italy, France and Sweden, and winning silver think, what we mean by bipartisanship. May we now and bronze medals in the hammer; further pays tribute to have a debate on the need to cut air passenger duty? It her volunteering work about coping with bullying, following will cost a family in Rotherham £320 to go on holiday having been bullied herself for most of her school life, and this summer, whereas it will cost a family in France, for volunteering in addition as a sports coach and at a charity example, just £38. Following the U-turn on fuel duty, shop; and hails her as a marvellous example of how may we have a U-turn on air passenger duty? courage and determination can prevail in adverse circumstances. Sir George Young: I am not sure whether the right Will the right hon. Gentleman join me in paying hon. Gentleman was present for transport questions, tribute to my constituent Emily Rawlins, a young woman but they would have provided him with an ideal opportunity who has overcome a learning disability and bullying to to raise the issue. [Interruption.] If he is proposing a become a member of the Great Britain athletics learning reduction in a particular form of taxation, perhaps he disability team, and who has won silver and gold medals would like to suggest where the money might come when representing our country in European countries? from. Will he do his best to ensure that this young lady, who volunteers against bullying and does a lot of other volunteering but is looking for full-time work, does not Mr Speaker: Order. The right hon. Member for have her access to jobseeker’s allowance reduced because Rotherham (Mr MacShane) has been chuntering from of the marvellous public work that she does? a sedentary position that he did not make that point at transport questions because he was not called by me, Sir George Young rose— but he was called this time, and I know that he is deeply grateful. Mr Speaker: I assume that the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) was seeking either a statement or possibly even a full debate on that Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): May important matter. we have a debate on spinal muscular atrophy, which is the number one genetic killer of infants and small Sir George Young: I will raise with the Secretary of children? I am sure that the Leader of the House will State for Work and Pensions the interaction of entitlement join me in congratulating 24 of my constituents who are to jobseeker’s allowance with the activity to which the cycling from Le Mans to Olney to raise funds for my right hon. Gentleman has referred. I have indeed seen three-year-old constituent Maya Czerminska to buy the 455 Business of the House28 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 456

[Mark Lancaster] Sir George Young: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has a good record in keeping the House in the special equipment that she needs. May I simply ask the picture after European Council meetings. I have to say Government to redouble their efforts to tackle this that I do not think it would be in the interests of this appalling disease? country for the euro currency to come to an end, as the uncertainty and instability would be gravely damaging Sir George Young: I applaud the fundraising initiative to British interests and British employment. However, if of my hon. Friend’s constituent. The National Screening my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister reports on the Committee is currently scoping out a review for screening weekend conference, there may be an opportunity for for spinal muscular atrophy, and once the review has the hon. Gentleman to pursue this matter with him. been completed, it will be put on the NSC’s website for consultation. I know that the NSC would welcome an Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): May we have a debate input from my hon. Friend, and, indeed, from those on the operation of the parliamentary information who are raising funds for this worthwhile cause. technology system, so I can understand why we have a wi-fi system that we have to log into about every five Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): May we have a debate seconds, my constituents can have a better understanding on the way in which we treat the staff of the House, of the alleged overspending on iPad rental, and everyone particularly the very loyal staff on the switchboard, can understand who is responsible for the operation of many of whom are my constituents and many of whom this system? have been here for more than 20 years? They have been told that they will have to move to Southampton next Sir George Young: Again, that is more a matter for May because Capita has taken over the running of the the Commission than the Government, but speaking service. Can we really not look at the way in which we from memory, I think there are plans to roll out access treat our own staff? to wi-fi within the Palace of Westminster. At the moment Sir George Young: The hon. Lady is right to draw the it does not reach the Leader’s office. I hope that— House’s attention to the debt that we owe to all those [Laughter.] I hope that, as the reach of wi-fi spreads who work for the House and provide such a high-quality through the Palace of Westminster and the signal strength service, often in challenging circumstances. I understand is improved, my hon. Friend will not be inconvenienced that the contract for the switchboard operation has in the way that he clearly is at present. been awarded to Capita as part of the initiative of the House of Commons Commission to reduce costs. The Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): On Monday, hon. Lady’s concern is not primarily a matter for the I raised the case of a constituent who has had cancer. Government, but it is a matter for the Commission, so I She has been told by her doctor that she is not fit will raise it with the Commission and see whether there enough to go back to work, but she is being denied is a role for us to play in minimising the dislocation of benefit. The Minister in question refused to meet me her constituents. and said it was now policy for Ministers not to look at individual cases. I am sure the Leader of the House Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Will my right agrees that we must be able to represent our constituents hon. Friend arrange for a debate on the functioning of in exceptional cases. Please will he look into this matter Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, especially in relation for me? to the extra funds made available to it to deal with tax avoidance and tax evasion? It appears to me that it is Sir George Young: I assume the hon. Lady is referring the media that are finding high-profile tax avoiders, to Department for Work and Pensions Ministers? while HMRC is chasing one of my constituents for small overpayments of tax credits from more than Helen Goodman indicated assent. 10 years ago. I am sure that is not what the extra resources were intended for. Sir George Young: I will certainly pursue this matter. As far as I know, Ministers are accessible to other Sir George Young: I am sure my hon. Friend will take Members who want to raise cases. On the particular up with vigour the case of his constituent who is being case the hon. Lady raises, I am sure the constituent is pursued for tax credits. We all know from our own appealing against the decision to deny benefit, but I will casework that quite often tax credits are overpaid through raise this specific concern with my right hon. Friend the no fault of the constituent, and then some time later Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and see HMRC asks for the money back and it is not there. whether a meeting might be arranged. On my hon. Friend’s first point, the Government have given £900 million in extra resources to HMRC Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): Wednesday 4 July is specifically to bring in more tax, and we estimate that “Independents day”, a campaign day supporting and that will bring in an extra £7 billion of revenue. promoting the independent retail sector, spearheaded in my community by the Keighley Town Centre Association. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): This weekend is Can we have a statement on what the Government have likely to see the beginning of the end of the euro. While already done to support this important sector of our euro-obsessives wring their hands in anguish at the economy, and what they plan to do in the future? thought, some of us believe that re-establishing national currencies will be beneficial in both economic and Sir George Young: I welcome this important initiative, democratic terms, yet we have not had a serious debate supported by Keighley, and I pay tribute to independent about life after the euro. Will the Leader of the House shops, which are often a lifeline in areas that have not make time for such a debate? been reached by the multiples. I cannot promise an 457 Business of the House28 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 458 early debate, but this might be an appropriate subject Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Many Members recognise for an Adjournment debate or one of the longer the excellent work nurses do. However, a constituent of Westminster Hall debates. mine who has spent more than 40 years as a nurse and nurse trainer has raised concerns about some of the Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Can we urgently basic personal care aspects of nursing training. May we have a statement on the medicine supply chain problems have a debate on nursing training, therefore, and on facing patients, front-line pharmacists and dispensing how we can ensure that we have an excellent standard of doctors? After 18 months of freedom of information nursing throughout the country? requests, we now know that four out of five health boards, health trusts and prescribing bodies in England Sir George Young: I agree with my hon. Friend that it and Wales are experiencing difficulties in accessing drugs is important to drive up the standards of nursing, and I for conditions including diabetes, cancer and coronary believe that there has been a move to make nursing care. In our country there is a public service obligation more of a graduate profession. I cannot promise an to provide electricity to every household. We should early debate on this subject, but again it might be a consider putting in place a patient service obligation to suitable subject for a debate on the Adjournment or in make sure UK patients have access to the drugs they Westminster Hall. We are committed to driving up the need. standard of nursing training, so that nurses can provide an even higher quality service to patients. Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman raises a serious issue. There has been some discontinuity in the Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May we have a supply chain of certain medicines—in some cases companies debate on endangered species, having read this week the can get a better deal if they sell pharmaceuticals overseas. very sad news of the death of Lonesome George, the My understanding was that there was a back-up service last giant tortoise of his kind on the Galapagos islands? to ensure that shortages were avoided, but I will pursue Does the Leader of the House see any parallel between this important matter with my right hon. Friend the the plight of Lonesome George and that of the endangered Secretary of State for Health. Chancellor, with his tendency to hide in his shell at the first sign of trouble? Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): Dairy farmers in Crewe and Nantwich and elsewhere Sir George Young: A moment ago, the Chancellor of are rightly concerned about how much power the the Exchequer was at my side. I am sure he will return—and supermarket buyers have over them. Will my right hon. he will certainly get support from me for his forthcoming Friend find time for a debate on the establishment of statement. I should just say to the hon. Gentleman, the groceries code adjudicator, which my local farmers however, that things are not going too well for his party. broadly welcome, and in particular the sanctions available I see that Tony Blair took control of the Evening Standard to the adjudicator to make sure the supermarkets adhere yesterday, and when asked whether he wanted to become to the code, thus protecting our vital dairy industry? Prime Minister, he said, “Yes, sure.” I am not sure whether that is the vote of confidence in the current Sir George Young: As my hon. Friend will know, in leadership that Labour was hoping for, or whether the the Queen’s Speech we committed ourselves to introducing reserves are lining up on the touchline. the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill. That Bill has now been introduced and is making its way through the Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Can we have a debate other place. I hope it will come before this House before on topsy-turvy welfarism? The Sun has revealed that too long. The adjudicator will have strong powers to taxpayers are to be squeezed by the EU for tens of hold retailers to account if they have broken the code. millions in winter fuel cash to send to pensioners who He will be able to name and shame retailers and, if the have not lived in the UK for decades. Surely it is wrong Secretary of State agrees that it is necessary, to impose to tax pensioners and working people in my constituency financial penalties. to send what could be up to £90 million in benefits abroad to warm countries and tax havens across Europe. Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): May we have a statement or debate on the Government’s Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is absolutely right proposed changes to secondary education and the about this. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State reintroduction of O-levels? This week, there was a leak for Work and Pensions has said that we will challenge to the Daily Mail and we had an Opposition day debate these ridiculous rules and make sure that winter fuel in which we heard a lot about aspirations but very few payments go to those in this country. It is ludicrous that details. Schools in Birmingham and elsewhere have a we should have to pay for more pensioners living in right to know precisely what the Government are planning warmer countries than this one. to do. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): Sir George Young: We had a good debate on O-levels Following the excellent debate we had in Westminster on Tuesday, and if the hon. Lady looks at Hansard she Hall on women bishops in the Church of England, after will see that the resolution agreed by the House refers to recent events in the House of Bishops and with concern the forthcoming consultation on the secondary school across the House of Commons about the good standing qualifications and curriculum framework. The point at of the Church of England, is it not about time that we which to have another debate would be once that had a debate on the Floor of the House about women consultation document is in the public domain. I would bishops? simply add that we inherited a situation in which far too many children were leaving primary school unable to Sir George Young: If the hon. Lady is in her place this write, read and add up properly. That was wholly time next week, there will be Church Commissioners unsustainable, and we have proposals to put it right. questions. The Second Church Estates Commissioner is 459 Business of the House28 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 460

[Sir George Young] future, but there may be an opportunity for one when we have the consultation paper to which I have just in his place and has now had advance warning of the referred. question, so he will come up with a scintillating reply in a week’s time. Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): The Immigration Minister’s recent statement reflects Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): As a member growing concerns that Government policies are stopping of the Joint Committee that examined the draft Bill, able overseas students from coming to the UK. Can we may I welcome the dates for the Second Reading of the have a debate on that important issue? House of Lords Reform Bill and the fact that the Government listened to the Committee’s recommendations Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate. I to protect the primacy of this place? Can the Leader of have seen no evidence that our recently introduced the House tell us when he will publish the programme controls are keeping out of the country able students motion? Does he share my view that it is, sadly, all too who want to go to our best universities. I have to say typical of Opposition Front Benchers to say they will that the system of immigration control that we inherited oppose something they have not seen and which is was shambolic, and we have had to take firm steps to necessary to enact the reform they claim to want? bring it under control. We have seen no evidence that our approach is having the effect to which the hon. Sir George Young: The programme motion will be Lady refers. tabled in good time for the debate. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that it is absurd for Labour Members to Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): say that they are going to oppose the programme motion Following on from my question last week, could my before they have even seen it. right hon. Friend find time for a debate about the use of parliamentary language in this place? A specific theme Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Earlier this week, of such a debate would be the public perception of Defence Ministers talked up their budgetary competence. parliamentary procedure. Does he agree that this would Today, the National Audit Office says that £6 billion has be a debate in which hon. Members from both sides of been wasted on redundant kit—this includes storing the House would actively participate? parts for spy planes that no longer fly. Can we have a debate on improving financial management in the Ministry Sir George Young: Further to our exchange last week, of Defence? Mr Speaker, you and I have exchanged letters, and we are both more than happy to place that correspondence in the Library of the House for the convenience of right Sir George Young: The MOD will of course consider hon. and hon. Members. I also understand that the the NAO’s detailed conclusions and recommendations, Procedure Committee has asked for a memorandum and will make a full response in due course. The priority from the Clerk on this very subject, and I hope that in at the moment is to make sure that those in Afghanistan due course that might also be put in the public domain. have the kit they need, but we are addressing these I repeat what I said to my hon. Friend last week: when issues, which have built up over some time. In respect of we engage in debate in this House, we ought to observe the NAO report, we are pleased that the NAO recognises your injunctions to use temperate language, Mr Speaker, that these changes are already making a difference. We and have regard to what the public watching us think if are changing the way in which we buy, store and dispose we use language that is over the top. of equipment, and we are investing in IT systems in order to make progress in this area. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): The Government have kept this House starved of business Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): By 2013, all over the past 12 months, leaving us less than fully secondary schools and many primary schools in Tamworth employed in this Chamber. That makes it more difficult will have converted to academy status, under several than normal to justify the return of the Commons in providers. Those schools are even now discussing with September, but I understand there are also special the borough council how they can develop an overarching circumstances this year, as bringing the House back schooling strategy for the town. So may we have a when the carpets and floors on the principal level will debate on education and local government to discuss have been lifted will incur extra costs, and health and how county local authorities can devolve further safety risks because of the asbestos discovered. Will the responsibilities and powers to schools and to district Leader of the House inform us what the extra costs and councils? the health and safety implications are?

Sir George Young: I welcome the progress being Sir George Young: The Government believe, and made in my hon. Friend’s constituency. The schools indeed the House believes, that it is wrong that the that he has just mentioned are joining the more than Government should not be held to account from the 1,600 new academies that have been created since we middle to end of July until October, as was the practice came into office in May 2010, driving up standards and in the previous Parliament. We believe that it is right performance. I would welcome a debate along the lines that the House should sit in September, so that the that he suggested about the relationship between schools Government can be held to account. Figures are in and local authorities, in which I could hear his thoughts the public domain—I think from last year—showing about how we can do more to empower teachers and the extra cost of sitting in September. My view is that it parents. I cannot promise such a debate in the very near is very difficult to put a price on democracy, that it is 461 Business of the House28 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 462 right that we should be held to account throughout the Sir George Young: I am delighted to hear the good year and that we can manage the maintenance of the news in my hon. Friend’s constituency. In the last quarter, House within the budget that is available. youth unemployment in the country as a whole was down by 29,000. I am convinced that the Work programme Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Earlier this has a role to play, as do work experience and investment week, the Prime Minister made an excellent speech in apprenticeships. He is right to say that the higher the about the future strategy for benefits. The key issue that qualifications of those leaving school, the more likely he made clear was that work will always pay but that they are to find a job in competitive markets. The thrust benefits would be available for those who cannot work. of our education policy is indeed to drive up those Incredibly, the Labour party opposes a benefit cap and standards to improve the employability of those leaving set up, when in government, a huge and complicated school and college. system of benefits. May we therefore have a debate on the future strategy for benefits, so that we can pin down, Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): once and for all, where the Labour party stands? [HON. Can we have a debate on the definition of poverty? The MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] current measure of poverty as an income of less than 60% of the national median wage means that if anyone Sir George Young: I am very grateful to my hon. increases their income, even the lowest paid worker in Friend. He will have heard my hon. Friends’ reaction to the country, they are judged to have pushed someone his proposal for a debate, and he may wish to ask the else into poverty.Perhaps even more perversely, if everyone Backbench Business Committee for one. I applaud in the country was to have an income of zero, we would the speech that the Prime Minister made on Monday. be judged to have eradicated poverty altogether. That The indications from one of the polls—I think I saw it flawed measure highlights the failings of the previous in today’s paper—is that that speech struck a chord Government, with their concentration on income transfer with the vast majority of the population. We have rather than on addressing the root causes of poverty, already made progress with universal credit, with housing namely low aspirations and worklessness. benefit reform and reforms in respect of disability, but it is right to ask questions as to where we go next. I think that there is an appetite out there for further changes in Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the direction in which we have already embarked. for his question and it is right that we should, if possible, move away from a purely mathematical calculation of Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): The further poverty that aims to move a group of people from just education loans regulations that are due for implementation below a level to just above a level. We should try to on 1 September are to be laid before Parliament on the define poverty in more general terms and then deal with day before the recess begins, which is, coincidentally, the the causes of poverty. Speaking from memory, I think same day on which most FE colleges in this country my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work close for the summer. That means that parliamentarians and Pensions is proposing to change how poverty is will not have time to scrutinise the regulations properly measured in exactly the direction my hon. Friend proposes. and, probably more importantly, that it will be almost impossible for FE colleges to put in place their operations Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Can we for 1 September to make this work. May we have an be assured that we will get an oral statement to the urgent statement on this matter? House from the Secretary of State for Health next Wednesday, when the Safe and Sustainable review into Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Lady’s children’s heart surgery is published? Recent documents concern. She is asking for the regulations to be made suggest that, even now, proper account is not being available at an earlier date than the one currently planned, taken of the independent figures that clearly suggest and I will certainly make inquiries to see whether that that certain units will not achieve the 400 units necessary, might be possible. whereas Leeds will. With that lack of confidence in the process, we need a clear statement from a Minister. Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Youth unemployment in my constituency has fallen for Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s the fourth successive month, and it is down by almost a concern and, as I understand it, a report or review is to quarter since the beginning of the year. Ensuring that be published next Wednesday. I cannot promise my people leave school with the skills that employers need hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of is crucial to continuing that trend, so can we have a State will make an oral statement on that day, but I am debate on the link between education, skills and sure that he will want to respond to the review in the employment? most appropriate way. 463 28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 464

LIBOR (FSA Investigation) traders and the LIBOR submitters read like an epitaph to an age of irresponsibility. Through 2005, 2006, and early 2007 we see evidence of systematic greed at the 12.21 pm expense of financial integrity and stability. They knew The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): what they were doing: I would like to update the House on the Financial “Keep it a secret”, Services Authority’s investigation into the manipulation one trader told another in February 2007, of the setting of the LIBOR and EURIBOR interest “If you breathe a word of this I’m not telling you anything rates and the Government’s response. The London else”. interbank offered rate, or LIBOR, and the Euro interbank Yet no one at Barclays prevents them, no one in the offered rate, or EURIBOR, are the benchmark reference tripartite regulatory system knows anything about it rates that are fundamental to the workings of the UK, and the Government of the day are literally clueless European and international financial markets, including about what is going on. markets in interest rate derivatives contracts. Those contracts might sound exotic but they are the bread and The FSA is clear that the most serious breaches of its butter of our financial system and are used by businesses principles for businesses occurred in the years leading and public authorities every day, and they affect the up to the financial crisis. Once the crisis is under way, mortgage payments and loan rates of millions of families Barclays’ concern switches from the greed of traders to and hundreds of thousands of firms, large and small. concern from the management about the reputational risk to the firm. To be fair, Barclays itself raised concerns LIBOR and EURIBOR are by far the most prevalent about LIBOR with the FSA in late 2007 and in 2008. benchmark reference rates used in euro, US dollar and Yes, the financial system was experiencing a severe sterling interest rate derivatives contracts. The outstanding stress and markets were frozen, but it is clear that interest rate contracts alone are estimated to be worth Barclays—and potentially other banks—were still in $554 trillion. Yesterday, the FSA published notice that flagrant breach of their duty to observe proper standards Barclays had on numerous occasions acted inappropriately of market conduct and give citizens and businesses in and breached principles 2, 3 and 5 of the FSA’s principles this country and elsewhere proper transparent information for businesses. As a result, the FSA has imposed a about the true price of money. financial penalty of £59.5 million on Barclays. In other Britain’s tripartite system of regulation failed us in words, the FSA reports that this bank, on numerous war and in peace and the country has paid a very heavy occasions, did not conduct its business with due skill, price for that. That brings me to the second question care and diligence, that this bank did not take reasonable of how we prevent this from happening again. The care to organise its affairs responsibly and effectively, Government are getting rid of the whole tripartite with adequate risk management systems, and that this system. The Financial Services Bill now before Parliament bank did not observe proper standards of market conduct. will create a new and far tougher regulatory system. A As the FSA puts it: new Financial Conduct Authority will focus razor-like “Barclays’ misconduct…created the risk that the integrity of on market abuse and protecting consumers. We have LIBOR and EURIBOR would be called into question and that been reviewing with the FSA and the Bank of England confidence in or the stability of the UK financial system would be threatened.” the operation of the LIBOR regime, which was not regulated under the previous Government’s Financial Barclays are not alone in this. The FSA is continuing Services and Markets Act 2000. The market is already to investigate the conduct of a number of other banks changing and the role of LIBOR is changing with it. As in relation to LIBOR, to commit significant resources part of our review into LIBOR and the strength of the to its investigations into potential attempts to manipulate financial regulatory—[Interruption.] May I just say to LIBOR and to work with its counterparts overseas and the Opposition that I think a little more silence would with other authorities in the UK. do, and perhaps an apology for the mess that this The investigations concern a number of institutions Government are trying to clean up? [Interruption.] based both in the UK and overseas, but it is already clear that the FSA’s investigation demonstrates systemic Mr Speaker: Order. Rather more silence is needed on failures at the heart of the financial system at the time. I both sides; the Chancellor is quite justified in making want to thank Adair Turner and the team at the FSA his point. I gently remind the junior Whip on the for a very thorough piece of work, but it prompts three Treasury Bench that although his oratorical talents vital questions. First, how were such failures allowed to might be deployed in the future—we look forward to continue undetected and unchecked, particularly in the that with eager anticipation and beads of sweat on our two years before the financial crisis, which is when the brows—for now his role is to fetch and carry notes and FSA is clear that the most serious breaches occurred, to nod in the appropriate places. Silence is required. for which the only motive was greed? Secondly, what changes are needed to our regulatory system in the Mr Osborne: Mr Speaker, my hon. Friend the Member future to prevent such abuse from occurring again and for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands) does far more to make sure that the authorities have every power they than that and he is very good at it. need to hold those responsible fully to account? Thirdly, Let me get back to the serious matter in hand. As what further investigations are required into the activities part of our review into LIBOR and the strength of the at Barclays, what sanctions are available and what questions financial regulatory architecture, we will examine if must the chief executive answer? there are any gaps in the criminal regime inherited by First, the FSA report is a shocking indictment of the this Government and we will take the necessary steps to culture at banks such as Barclays in the run up to the address them. I cannot comment today on possible financial crisis. The e-mail exchanges between derivative criminal investigations into individuals involved in this 465 LIBOR (FSA Investigation)28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 466 activity. The authorities are exploring every avenue Nine months ago, the Leader of the Opposition open to them but, shockingly, the scope of the FSA’s talked about “irresponsible, predatory capitalism”, of criminal powers, granted by the previous Government, which this is one of the worst cases yet. The public had does not extend to being able to impose criminal sanctions been assured that the banks had cleaned up their act. for manipulation of LIBOR. As part of our review into Ordinary borrowers and savers were told they could LIBOR and the strength of the financial regulatory trust the banks again, but these unfolding revelations architecture, we are examining whether strengthening shine a new light on shocking practices in one of Britain’s the criminal sanctions regime for market abuse and most important banks. What should have been an impartial market manipulation is warranted, and if so, we will process of reporting independent interest rate statistics provide for these powers quickly. became an exercise in cooking the books, cheating the Next week, the Government will be publishing a system and fixing the market. consultation in response to the report on the failure of Financial stability and the effective regulation of our RBS and will consider the possibility of criminal sanctions banking and wider financial services industry are vital for directors of failed banks when there is proven criminal for stability, for consumers to save and for businesses to negligence. Under the previous Government’s regime, invest. Getting the balance of regulation right is an fines paid to the FSA are used to reduce the annual levy important task for the Government, especially when other financial institutions are asked to pay. I am far hundreds of thousands of jobs depend on the industry from convinced that in all cases that is the best use of and when all of us and small businesses in all our the money and we are considering amendments to the constituencies rely so much on the financial services Financial Services Bill that ensure that fines of this sector. nature go to help the tax-paying public, not the financial There are three areas in which I have questions for the industry. Chancellor, the first of which is dealing with the people I have also asked my officials to investigate urgently who are responsible. Are those responsible in the banks whether that legislation could be applied to the fine being held—[Interruption.] imposed on Barclays bank. It is clear that what happened Mr Speaker: Order. This is an extremely serious in Barclays, and potentially in other banks, was completely matter which warrants serious consideration. Let it be unacceptable and was symptomatic of a financial system absolutely clear to hon. Members on both sides of the that elevated greed above all other concerns and brought House that if they want to shout out, they will not be our economy to its knees. called to ask a question on the statement. They should That brings me to my final point. As I have said, a not shout, but if they think they are going to shout and number of individuals are under formal investigation then be called to ask a question, I am afraid they are by the FSA, and that number is expected to increase as rather deluded. the investigations continue. The Serious Fraud Office is aware of the matters under investigation and there are Rachel Reeves: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I could not ongoing discussions between the FSA and the Serious agree more with you about the importance of this issue. Fraud Office about the evidence as it develops. The On dealing with those who are responsible, are those chief executive of Barclays has some very serious questions responsible in the banks being held accountable, or will to answer today. What did he know and when did he this whole thing just return to business as usual? Are know it? Who in Barclays’ management was involved criminal investigations progressing, and which law and who therefore should pay the price? It is quite right authorities will be leading the conspiracy and fraud that the Treasury Committee has asked him to appear cases that might arise? Has the Chancellor reflected on urgently to account for himself and his bank, and I the consequences for competition and has he considered congratulate the Chair of the Committee on doing that. involving the Office of Fair Trading, the Serious Fraud We all want to hear his answers. The story of irresponsibility Office or the City of London police? We need to know is not over yet. who knew what and when, and criminal prosecutions Our financial services should be a source of economic should and must follow against anyone who might have strength and national pride for this country, but failures broken the law. in our banks and financial system have cost the country Millions of home owners with variable rate mortgages, billions and put thousands out of work. Those responsible small businesses with floating loans and consumers should be held responsible. We want our financial services who depend on affordable credit could have lost money to support the creation of jobs and prosperity for because of what amounts to a price-fixing scandal. millions. This Government are sweeping away the regulatory What support will be available for individuals and small system that failed. We will protect taxpayers, punish businesses who have potentially lost out because of the wrongdoing and put right the wrongs of an age of market fixing and who contact the Financial Ombudsman irresponsibility. Service or the bank directly? Is the FSA also investigating the role of the bank’s auditors in tracking and reporting the manipulation of the figures between the rate submitters 12.31 pm and the traders involved? What is happening to ensure Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I start by thanking that other banks that have manipulated markets in a the Chancellor for advance notice of his statement, similar way are brought to justice? which was handed to me at 12.19 pm—two minutes Secondly, what is being done to prevent anything like before he delivered it. [HON.MEMBERS: “Where’s Balls?”] this from happening again? We raised our concerns with As my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor is Treasury Ministers about the regulation of LIBOR addressing the Local Government Association’s annual recently. On 6 March, during a debate on the Financial conference in Birmingham, I am responding for the Services Bill about the set of unregulated financial Opposition. activities that the Chancellor evidently felt should remain 467 LIBOR (FSA Investigation)28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 468

[Rachel Reeves] Secondly, the hon. Lady talked about the regulation of LIBOR. Of course the Government have been reviewing unregulated, the shadow Financial Secretary, my hon. LIBOR while awaiting the publication of this report, Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), which we knew was coming. As I have said, we have asked the Financial Secretary directly about the considered it carefully and we are looking at criminal “billions of pounds of trades that are subject to the LIBOR sanctions for market manipulation. The hon. Lady did rating”––[Official Report, Financial Services Public Bill Committee, not ask about this, but it is an important point so I shall 6 March 2012; c. 359.]— repeat that we are looking at what can happen to the and why that might need to be regulated. When asked fines levied on companies under the Act passed by the whether he had a view—any view at all—about ending previous Government. Those fines are used simply to self-regulation, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury reduce the levy that is paid to the FSA by the rest of the had a one word answer: “No.” financial sector, so the money paid by Barclays would The Chancellor made a conscious decision to exclude just go to reduce the levy paid by other banks to the LIBOR from the Financial Services Bill in its current FSA. We are considering changing that, looking at form, even when he must have known that a massive whether that is appropriate in all cases and, specifically, FSA investigation into precisely that matter was under whether the fine that Barclays will pay can go to the way. The reputation of the City of London and our general taxpayer, who has suffered so much as a result financial services sector is at stake. Instead of Ministers’ of the failures of the financial system. saying that the Treasury has no view, surely we need Finally, the hon. Lady talked about a culture change swift action to prevent the market abuse? Will the in the City and in banking. I completely agree. That is Chancellor urgently revisit his decision not to regulate why the Government have introduced very tough new LIBOR arrangements and instead amend the Financial rules on remuneration and the clawback of remuneration, Services Bill, which is still before Parliament? which is what will happen in this case. It is why we asked Thirdly, a much wider issue is the culture in the City John Vickers to look at the whole structure of our of London. As Bob Diamond said only last year, culture banking industry, and the Business Secretary and I are is about implementing reforms that will ring-fence our retail banks to protect them better. It is why we have before “how people behave when no one is watching,” Parliament as I speak the Financial Services Bill, which but people in his organisation thought they could do will sweep away the financial regulatory system that anything they liked, just to make a fast buck. They failed this country so badly. The Labour party’s trouble thought they would never be held to account and that is that it is led by the cheerleaders for the age of they were effectively above the law. We cannot allow irresponsibility, but they have yet to say sorry for it. Britain to become a place where the privileged and the powerful act according to their own set of moral standards. Several hon. Members rose— That is why we are calling for the strongest punishment for those who have broken trust and broken the law, Mr Speaker: Order. A very large number of hon. and tough regulation to prevent such practices in future and right hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye, but I a culture change in our banking industry. We must get remind the House that there is significantly subscribed our economy working for the majority, not just a few at business to follow, under the auspices of the Backbench the top. The Government must act. Business Committee; therefore, I must appeal for short questions and short answers. Mr Osborne: The whole House will be both surprised and disappointed that the shadow Chancellor is not Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): What is now here to account for himself today. He was certainly left of trust between Parliament and the banks? Barclays there every single day while these abuses were taking and probably other banks were profiting by lying and place, as the City Minister responsible for regulating rigging the markets at a crucial time in the last crisis, Barclays and other banks. The hon. Lady says that the when the Government had a right to expect that they Government should do this and that. We are doing all would supply the then Chancellor with reliable information those things; the question is why did the Labour on the basis of which to conduct policy. The Treasury Government not do those things when all this was Committee will now investigate properly. Under the actually happening? current legislation, as the Chancellor has pointed out, Let me answer the hon. Lady’s specific questions. She the Financial Services Authority has no power to bring asks whether the individuals responsible will be held to a criminal prosecution in relation to not only LIBOR, account. Absolutely, and the authorities are carrying but derivatives. Will the Chancellor undertake now to out investigations into individuals. She asks whether amend the Financial Services Bill to include derivatives people who have broken the criminal law will be held to and LIBOR in the legislation before Parliament? account. That is absolutely what the authorities are looking at but as I have said, the FSA’s criminal powers Mr Osborne: I completely agree with the sentiments granted by the previous Government do not extend that my hon. Friend has expressed. I congratulate him to criminal sanctions for manipulation of LIBOR. and his Committee on acting swiftly to ask Mr Diamond [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Nottingham East to come and account for himself. As I said in my (Chris Leslie) asks, “Why is it unregulated?” It is because statement, we are looking at strengthening the criminal he did not regulate it—that is why. We are introducing a sanctions regime in general for market abuse and market major Financial Services Bill, which has been through manipulation, not just of LIBOR but in other parts of the House of Commons and is going through the the market; and next week, as planned, the consultation House of Lords, to deal with the abuses that happened on potential sanctions for directors of failed banks will under the previous Government. be published. Sadly, the Government have been in this 469 LIBOR (FSA Investigation)28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 470 situation before with the FSA’s report into the failure of There is no estimate of the cost to individuals or Royal Bank of Scotland, when the authority reported consumers, and it would be very difficult to construct to us that it did not have the powers it would have liked one. We are talking about the daily rate set, in the case to hold to account those responsible for the failure. of these abuses, over a three or four-year period, and it was used to set mortgage rates, loan rates and all sorts Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): I of other things. Sometimes the rate was manipulated to am sure that, in his quieter moments, the Chancellor be too low and sometimes it was manipulated to be too will reflect on the fact that we are kidding ourselves if high compared with the true market price. We do not we think that the UK was the only country where this have an estimate, but it is clear that, as the FSA says, the sort of thing was going on. The American authorities manipulation contributed to the risk to the entire financial are just as concerned as our authorities. The situation is system, which then, in effect, collapsed, not because of symptomatic of a culture that prevailed for much of the that, but as part of the culture we have been talking last decade, when, frankly, anything was allowed to go. about, and the country has paid many billions for that. Does the Chancellor accept two things? First, LIBOR now has to have some degree of independent supervision. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I It cannot be a work of fiction. It is so important, agree with what the Chancellor said about the failure of especially at times of financial crisis—in 2008, we were the previous regulatory regime, but as far as the senior concerned about the financial health of Barclays and management of the banks are concerned, does he agree other banks—to know exactly what it is costing them to that ignorance is absolutely no defence? They should borrow. Secondly, although the FSA may not have have known what was going on. criminal powers, I am pretty sure it does have powers to Mr Osborne: I completely agree. One of the things take out of banks and put off the road the people who that has shocked the entire country in the aftermath of are responsible for doing this, the people who tolerated the financial crisis is how little people appeared to know it, and those gained from it and condoned it. If that is about what was going on in their banks. That is why it is not done, we have no chance whatsoever to move on in very important that Mr Diamond accounts for himself what remains a very important industry for this country. and his management and explains what they knew and Mr Osborne: The former Chancellor is of course when they knew it. right: there was poor financial regulation in American Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): May I build markets too, and part of the investigation has been on the question put by my right hon. Friend the former conducted jointly with the American authorities—but Chancellor of the Exchequer about the independence LIBOR was set in London, which is why it is called of LIBOR? The Chancellor has not referred to the LIBOR. British Bankers Association, which was involved in The right hon. Gentleman raised two points. The 1984 in putting the rate together. Is it appropriate to regulation and supervision of LIBOR is precisely what talk again to the association to see if we can get a true, we are investigating, although we have to make sure independent LIBOR? that we are not regulating the LIBOR market as it existed three years ago. That market today is somewhat Mr Osborne: The BBA is concerned about what has different and changing quite a lot, so we have to get the happened and has already instituted a review into the regulation right for 2012, not for 2006-07. His second operation of LIBOR. I should like to hear its thoughts point was on the individuals concerned and the FSA’s on that, but we need to look at the regulation of the rate powers. I have spoken to Adair Turner and I am absolutely and its independence. LIBOR is a very important rate clear that the FSA is pursuing cases against individuals, that is used to set mortgage and loan rates for pretty but it is a prosecuting authority and it would not be much everyone in the country, so we want to make sure appropriate for me to comment about those individuals that what happened never happens again. and ongoing cases. Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): When I heard about the Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Can the situation, it made me think that “light touch” should be Chancellor indicate how widespread the investigation substituted with “clueless”. I am extremely concerned is? How many other British banks are under investigation about the damage to Britain’s international reputation for market manipulation? as a world-leading financial centre. Has the Chancellor had any conversations with his international counterparts Mr Osborne: HSBC and RBS are two of the banks to keep them apprised of the investigation, and does he under investigation, but international banks such as think this is happening in other markets? UBS and Citigroup are under investigation too, partly for activities conducted in this country. Mr Osborne: The fact of the investigation was something I discussed with Finance Ministers and representatives Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Chancellor of other Governments, but I have not spoken with any referred to the costs and penalties that the general of them since the FSA report was published yesterday public have suffered. Is there any estimate of how much because the issues immediately before us are about per head ordinary people in this country have suffered Britain and a British bank. As I indicated in my response from the activities of a group of corrupt banksters? to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), however, a number of international banks Mr Osborne: First, I hope the hon. Gentleman does were potentially involved, such as UBS and Citigroup, not mind me saying on behalf of the whole House that which are not British banks and are in part regulated by we very much welcome him to his place. He has the overseas authorities. The whole FSA investigation is deepest sympathy of the whole House for the tragedy in part of a joint international effort with the US Department his family. It is good to see him back here. of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission. 471 LIBOR (FSA Investigation)28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 472

Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): If we are going should be held responsible for the culture that they to study the culture of the banking system and the presided over. As I say, we will take the steps necessary changes that have taken place over the years, would it to prevent this happening again, and we are looking at not be fair to start from the fact that the late ’80s, with the regulation of the LIBOR market to get it right. the big bang in the City, is when the culture of the banks changed dramatically? If we are going to lay Several hon. Members rose— blame, let’s get the history books right. There is another scandal with the banks. Now that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. A lot the Chancellor is in the mood to tame them, what about of Members want to speak and I want to get everybody looking at the question that blind and disabled people in, but we need brevity in both questions and answers. are contributing more to reduce the Government’s deficit than all the banks put together? Sort that out as well. As for saying somebody is absent, the Chancellor ought John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) to be explaining why he did not turn up at the BBC and (LD): This ruling surely confirms that the financial face the music with Paxman. markets, as many of us suspected, have been neither free nor fair, but rather a sewer of systemically amoral Mr Osborne: It is one thing not to appear on the dishonesty. Is not the case for separation of retail BBC’s “Newsnight”, and another not to be in the banking from merchant banking now so overwhelming House of Commons to answer to the public and to as to be unanswerable? Parliament for one’s own mistakes during the years of irresponsibility.That is the question the shadow Chancellor Mr Osborne: I agree with my hon. Friend that we will no doubt have to answer today. As for history should separate retail banking from investment banking, lessons, let me say this to the hon. Member for Bolsover but the best way to do that is through the ring-fence as (Mr Skinner): he has never once got up and apologised proposed by John Vickers. We asked him and his for the mistakes of the Government he consistently distinguished commission to look at the structure of supported over 13 years. It is no good blaming what banks, and explicitly to consider the option that some happened in the 1980s; we are talking about what had proposed of completely separating retail and investment happened in 2005, 2006, and 2007, when he and his banking. The commission considered and rejected that cronies were in charge. option, and instead proposed an approach that it thought Mr Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): When would be stronger for financial stability, and particularly I left banking 16 years ago, we were a dull profession, for the stability of retail banking. That is the ring-fence but capable of giving solid advice. When did it go so approach, for which we will now legislate. horribly wrong? When did bankers start treating their customers as punters to be exploited or devoured? Can Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): Notwithstanding my right hon. Friend assure the House that his reforms that Barclays has been hit with a very large fine, it is will restore the status quo ante? truly shocking that market manipulation of this sort is not a criminal offence, particularly as the FSA final Mr Osborne: I think the answer to my hon. Friends notice tells us that the abuses went on for three and a question is: when he left the industry. half years. I echo the comment made by the Chair of the Treasury Committee and others: we should look Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): again at legislating now, in the Financial Services Bill, The Chancellor concentrated heavily on regulation in particularly as regards the powers of the Financial his statement. He was less keen to tell the House that Conduct Authority—the conduct-of-business authority throughout the period in question, he and his colleagues that will be responsible for this matter—to make sure were calling for less regulation, not more. Does not the that it has the powers and the sanctions it needs to deal responsibility for wrongdoing really lie with those who with this sort of problem. did wrong—in this case, the traders in Barclays, and very possibly other banks, who participated in a rotten culture, far removed from the job that we want banks to Mr Osborne: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Of do, which is supporting savers, home owners and businesses? course the Financial Services Bill is before Parliament If it really does come down to regulation, why will the and there is still some time to go before it completes its Chancellor not accede to the request made by Opposition passage, so it is a readily available vehicle, but we want Front Benchers and now the Chair of the Treasury to make sure that we get this right, given what went so Committee to include LIBOR in the Bill that is going badly wrong with the previous attempt to regulate the through Parliament? financial services industry.

Mr Osborne: First of all, when in opposition, we Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): While £60 million actually objected to the creation of the FSA, the tripartite may sound like a great deal of money to the average system of regulation, and taking the Bank of England man in the street, when it is compared with the size of out of supervision. We voted against that. By the way, I Barclays’ balance sheet and the potential claims for remember—I was the shadow Chancellor at the time—the compensation, does my right hon. Friend not agree that previous Prime Minister endlessly berating us for voting it is a relatively small amount of money? When he is against that particular piece of legislation. looking at compensation for those who have lost out, When it comes to responsibility, of course those will he take care to ensure that Barclays is liable for its involved should be held responsible. I have made that own liabilities—that they will not necessarily be shared absolutely clear, and that is what the FSA is doing. with other banks and that each bank takes care of its However, I point out that the Government at the time own liabilities? 473 LIBOR (FSA Investigation)28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 474

Mr Osborne: Under the current regime, it is up to the Mr Osborne: I am happy to take away, because it has FSA to consider whether there is loss, and it is up to been raised by several Members, the issue of the total individuals who feel that there has been loss to bring impact on the economy and on individuals. I would their case forward. As I say, the Government have not point out to the hon. Lady that that might be extremely been able to come up with a round figure for the total difficult to work out, because the LIBOR rate was impact on the financial services industry and the economy manipulated up as well as down. Sometimes the rate of what went on, and nor has the FSA. If individuals was too low for the true market price, and sometimes it feel that they have been affected, there are channels was too high. It was manipulated by its derivative available to them. trading floor to suit the particular position that the bank had taken on that day, and that is why it is a Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Is not the truth of the difficult calculation to make. The FSA has made it matter that all the political parties were so nervous clear, however, that that contributed to a risk to the about financial services business going abroad, because country’s financial stability, and the cost of that is it is so international a business, that we were effectively enormous. in thrall to them? Would it not make perfect sense for Mr Diamond, when he appears before the Select Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): In January, I Committee, to give evidence on oath? set out the case for criminal sanctions against irresponsible management at significant financial institutions, so I Mr Osborne: It is entirely up to the Treasury Committee welcome the announcement that that will be taken to decide how it wishes to conduct its business. forward. May I push the Chancellor to make those This Government are introducing far-reaching changes sanctions as firm as can be done responsibly to ensure to our regulatory system and the structure of our that those who profit from deep irresponsibility do not banking system. It is far from clear that that receives the face the threat of walking out of the door and spending support of the shadow Chancellor. He has gone out of more time with their money but instead have the full his way to point out what he thinks are the flaws in the force of the law against them if they do things wrong? Financial Services Bill, and he has gone out of his way at the Dispatch Box to defend the tripartite system that Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend was prescient in making he designed. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris his case. He has pointed to something that concerns a Bryant) talks about all-party consensus; let us have number of people: the apparent ability of, for example, all-party consensus on clearing up the mess that the authorities in the United States to use criminal sanctions, previous Government presided over. while the authorities in the UK have not been granted those powers by Parliament. That is precisely what we Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): are looking at. First, I declare that before I joined the House, I worked for Barclays—[Laughter]—and before that, the FSA. Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): As the Chancellor may recall, I wrote to him on The Government’s new financial services regulatory 7 February calling for a change in the way fines were architecture puts a lot of power and responsibility on treated, and for an amendment to paragraph 16 of the shoulders of the Governor of the Bank of England, schedule 1 to the Financial Services and Markets Act but proposes no change to the relationship between the 2000, so I welcome his announcement that other banks regulator and Parliament. May I ask the Chancellor to will not profit from the wrongdoing of banks that have reflect again on the relationship of the House and the breached rules. other place with the regulator, and how best we can I turn to an issue that the former Chancellor, the right establish a continuing—not adversarial—dialogue with hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), the regulator so that problems, such as the one that he picked up: the ability to take enforcement action against has shockingly reported to the House, can be explored senior managers, particularly at executive level. Lord and reflected on in a mature way, and not subjected to Turner set out in his RBS report the difficulties of that, party political point scoring? in terms of the evidential level required. Can the Chancellor update the House on when a response, in the form of a Mr Osborne: Of course, it is important that the discussion paper from the Treasury, will be forthcoming? regulator, including the Bank of England, is accountable Will it be before the summer recess? to Parliament for its actions, and has to answer for its actions, while at the same time—and I think that there Mr Osborne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for is cross-party support for this—we maintain the sharing his CV with the House. [Interruption.] At least independence of the Monetary Policy Committee and he did not work for the shadow Chancellor. The answer the Governor in his role. The Financial Services Bill to his question is that we are publishing the consultation includes many new tools to increase accountability to next week. Parliament and to the public. In the White Paper that accompanied publication of the Bill, we set out further Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The changes that we are making in the House of Lords to Chancellor has very sensibly said that he will look at increase that accountability. how fines are used, but his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) about calculating David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Had price how much people have lost is somewhat disappointing. fixing on that scale taken place in other industries, Can he not look into whether the fine money can be under competition law, a fine of multiples of turnover used to compensate people? Surely he is not expecting could have been levied. Will the Chancellor tell us every individual to make their own case against a large whether there is any possibility of a further fine, because institution such as Barclays bank? £60 million is not a great deal to Barclays? 475 LIBOR (FSA Investigation)28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 476

Mr Osborne: The FSA, which is the appropriate financial services industry from one that was part of the authority, has concluded its work on assessing the fine age of irresponsibility to an industry that employs that Barclays has to pay, but there is also the important many hundreds of thousands of people and which question of what happens to the fine. I do not think that creates jobs and prosperity in this country. It is the other financial institutions or banks benefit from the largest private sector employer. Knowing the right hon. lower FSA levy as a result. We are therefore looking at Gentleman’s constituency, it is almost certainly the largest precisely that in the Bill, specifically at whether the private sector employer there. Yes, we have to hold Barclays fine can go to the taxpayer, rather than to the those responsible to account, but we must also rebuild financial services industry. the industry, because it is absolutely vital to our economy.

Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Further to the Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The City of London words of my right hon. Friend the Member for and its integrity are crucial to our country’s welfare. Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), may I Does my right hon. Friend agree that this rather sorry, gently remind the Chancellor that he told Andrew Marr sad state of affairs is a wake-up call for every individual two things on 4 December 2005, when asked what he and institution in the City of London which, collectively, would have done differently if he was Chancellor? One has to rediscover and reassert that sense of integrity? was about taxes and the other was that Mr Osborne: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. “we need…a lower regulatory environment”. As I said, this is an incredibly important industry for Why is his hindsight so different from his foresight? our future, despite the problems that the banking sector in particular has caused in our recent past. It is important Mr Osborne: First, the Opposition voted against the that we do not taint the entire financial services industry creation of the tripartite regime. Secondly, I remember with what went wrong. That industry includes insurance the joyous occasion, when I was shadow Chancellor, at companies and all sorts of other businesses that were Mansion House in 2007 of all years, when the former not involved, but the banks themselves, as the most Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy prominent institutions in the industry, have a huge and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), told us about the responsibility to change their culture and image with “new golden age for the City”, the rest of the country. and the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) praised the virtues of the light-touch regulatory Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): What we are looking regime of which he claimed sole authorship, although at essentially is daily daylight robbery, with a culture these days, funnily enough, he does not talk about that that said, “Anything goes, but nobody knows”. In light very much. of what we do know, would it not be a dereliction to introduce the Financial Services Bill without specifically Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Does my addressing LIBOR and looking again at the data right hon. Friend agree that, as the report by the Economic competence of the regulators? Without wishing to draw Affairs Committee showed, under Labour’s failed system, the Chancellor on what criminal charges might be brought, it was unclear who was in charge of regulating the does he believe that the forfeiture committee should banks? Is it fair to say that, sadly, Labour just dropped look at the cases of other bankers who may be implicated? the ball on this one? Mr Osborne: The part of the country that the hon. Gentleman represents has been affected perhaps more Mr Osborne: It is true that the tripartite regulatory than any other by what went wrong in financial services. system—and one of the three parts was the Government Northern Ireland has suffered enormously from the of the day—failed. That is self-evident, which is why we failure of banks in the UK and in the Republic, and it are making these changes. It is disappointing that they has paid perhaps a heavier price than anyone else, so he do not command the full support of the Opposition speaks with authority and passion on this. Let me make Front Bench, but perhaps the hon. Member for Nottingham it absolutely clear: we are going to deal with the regulation East (Chris Leslie), on his 40th birthday, will reconsider of LIBOR, and we will choose the most appropriate his position now that he has reached a new age of vehicle. The Financial Services Bill has been introduced maturity. in the House, so it is a convenient vehicle but, as I said, let us introduce the right regulation and get this right Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Does after its having gone spectacularly wrong in the past. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer agree, in view of the for the forfeiture committee, it is completely independent fact that the already overpaid bankers have been revealed of the politicians of the day, he will be glad to know. No to have bolstered their bonuses by corruption and criminal doubt, its members will have heard what he said. conspiracy, that it is about time that the Government and, in particular, the news media gave far less credence Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): to bankers and their apologists when they come out Continuing the “Newsnight” theme, last night Lord urging austerity on everyone else? Myners, when asked about the previous Government’s role, shrugged his shoulders and said that this was Mr Osborne: Of course, the credibility of the industry nothing to do with them. Does my right hon. Friend has quite rightly taken a hit because of what happened. agree that although Opposition Members are anxious However, we have a new pay regime so that we can claw to distance themselves from banking involvement, the back some of that money from the traders and bank anything-goes culture was driven by light-touch regulation, chiefs involved, which is a good thing. Secondly—and and that if we are to make progress, those who sit on we are all rightly concerned about what has happened, green benches or on trading desks must ultimately take and we need to change it—we have to change the responsibility for their involvement? 477 LIBOR (FSA Investigation)28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 478

Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend makes a good point, Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is which is that those responsible in government at the right that the focus of attention should not be just on time have to apologise and account for their own role the greedy bankers drinking Bollinger and the like, but before they will be listened to when speaking about on constituents—victims who have had their businesses their plans for the future. At present they do not seem and homes trashed as a result of this scandal. As they willing to do that. are the victims of gross irresponsibility, is it not time for some basic responsibility, with the chief executive of Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I must check up on Barclays stepping down and the shadow Chancellor what Barclays says about customer care, following the saying sorry? debate today. In view of what the Chancellor told the House today, do he and the Governor of the Bank of Mr Osborne: As I say, the chief executive of Barclays England have full confidence in the senior management needs to account for his actions, and the Treasury of Barclays? Committee provides the platform where he can do that, and as I said, the shadow Chancellor needs to account Mr Osborne: What I have said is that the chief executive for his actions too. of Barclays has some very serious questions to answer about who knew what when, and who in the management Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and knew that. Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): Across the House there is agreement on the need for better regulation of investment Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): All our banks, but does the Chancellor think regulation on its constituents will be outraged but perhaps not surprised own, however well designed, will be enough to deal with by yet another scandal rocking the foundations of part the rotten culture at the heart of our investment banking, of a functioning liberal democracy. A fine on the bank which this episode has revealed? Does it not need a is all very well; that just hits the shareholders. The change in leadership to change that culture fundamentally, directors of that company have, at the very least, failed going forward? in their fiduciary duties to those shareholders and may have done or sanctioned an awful lot worse. What sort of sanctions should be taken against directors who Mr Osborne: Where I would agree with the hon. preside over such terrible practice? Gentleman is that regulation cannot do everything and we need the right culture of management in the banks, Mr Osborne: The Government whom the hon. but there is also a job for the regulators here. One of the Gentleman and I both support have introduced clawback purposes of the Financial Services Bill is to put the so that the bonuses that were given to executives, traders Bank of England in charge and allow the regulator to and others in the banks can be clawed back if necessary. exercise more judgment. As I have said before in the That did not previously exist. We are looking specifically House, the Royal Bank of Scotland ticked every single at the responsibilities of directors of failed banks. The box when it came to its takeover of ABN AMRO, yet consultation on that will be published next week as a many people were asking at the end of 2007, “Is that a result of the FSA inquiry into what went wrong at RBS, sensible transaction?” We need the regulators to be and as I say, we are responding to today’s report by empowered to make judgment calls, not just to check looking at the regulation of LIBOR, at the criminal whether every line of the regulation has been complied sanctions that are available for prosecution, and at what with. happens to the fine, so that it is the people of Bristol who benefit from the fine that is paid, rather than other Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): I agree with everything banks in the City of London. that the Chancellor said in his statement, but following that, all he has done is try to heap responsibility on the Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): This inquiry Opposition Front-Bench team, rather than dealing with was started by the US authorities. The fines that have the bankers who are at the heart of the problem. We all been imposed, which have been mentioned by many know that lighter-touch regulation would have come in Members, were four times as large in the United States had he been Chancellor at the same time. That is not the as they are in the United Kingdom. The US authorities point. The point is that people out there are angry. also imposed stringent conditions on the operations of Those people are thieves and criminals, and they have Barclays in this area. When will we get robust regulation made beggars of many of our constituents, who want to in this country? When will the FSA send out e-mails know what this Government are going to do about it. entitled, “You’re nicked, big boy”? Can the Chancellor say whether the financial regulatory Bill before the House deals with all the issues that have Mr Osborne: It sounds like one of the e-mail exchanges been raised as a result of the report from the FSA that the traders were engaging in at the time, if one yesterday? If not, what is he going to do about it? reads the report. The US authorities are rightly involved, because much of the manipulation happened with the Mr Osborne: I will tell the hon. Gentleman what this US dollar market so it is perfectly understandable why Government are doing. First, we are getting rid of the they would want to be involved. I have raised this tripartite system that failed. Secondly, we are changing— question. Perhaps it is an issue that the Select Committee [Interruption.] I will tell hon. Members what failed—the would also want to consider—why in the US there seem regulation of financial services. The hon. Gentleman’s to be more powers available to the authorities than in constituents and mine and everyone else are paying a the UK, and what we can do in this House to make that very heavy price for that, so we are changing the regulator, change here so that the UK authorities have the full changing the structure of banks in order to have ring-fenced range of powers available to them. retail banks— 479 LIBOR (FSA Investigation)28 JUNE 2012 LIBOR (FSA Investigation) 480

Clive Efford: No. The right hon. Gentleman is doing Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): It is clearly vital nothing. It is business as usual. that we rebuild confidence in the banking system after this further scandal, but there are questions to ask Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman voted for 13 years about what compliance regime was going on in Barclays for a Government who failed this country. We are during the mid-2000s and in every other bank. Does my changing the regulation, changing the structure of right hon. Friend agree that no matter what the regulations banking—[Interruption.] and we are dealing with this are, it is now vital that the banks come out with a clear, latest abuse— [Interruption.] transparent and independent compliance regime to make sure that people who disobey the rules are caught very Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We quickly? have heard the question. The hon. Gentleman should Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right that the compliance have the courtesy to listen to the answer, even if he does regime is absolutely the first line of defence in the not like it. There is no need to get so excited— financial services industry. To be fair, Barclays did raise concerns about the LIBOR market operation in late Clive Efford: Plenty of people out there are excited. 2007 and early 2008. I think that we can draw a distinction, as the FSA does, between what was going on in 2005-06 Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Is the hon. Gentleman and early 2007 and what happened once the crisis hit. questioning me? He is absolutely right that the compliance regime is vital, and if there are any banks listening to what has happened today that are not looking carefully at their Clive Efford: I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. compliance regimes and ensuring they are up to scratch, I think that they are being pretty foolish. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): The prices of many important international commodities are set in London, Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): The Chancellor will such as cocoa and robusta coffee, and tens of millions know that concerns about the setting of LIBOR go of smallholder farmers and poor people around the back some time. A paper circulated by New York university’s world depend on these. Is my right hon. Friend confident Stern business school in 2008 raised the issue of the that the kind of problems that we have seen with manipulation of LIBOR. Indeed, in that year the panel LIBOR are not spreading to such markets, which are so changed the criteria for and composition of the setting important for people around the world? of LIBOR because of concerns about the fairness of the rate. What investigation will he undertake about the Mr Osborne: Of course we should be vigilant in the concerns raised at the time, whether they were picked supervision of all markets. Although there have been up by the FSA, whether the American authorities passed many complaints of the kind that my hon. Friend any concerns to the Treasury and the FSA and, if so, makes, every investigation here and, as far as I am what was done about them? aware, in other jurisdictions has not found the kind of Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right that concerns market manipulation in those commodity markets as were raised in late 2007 and in 2008 once the markets we see in LIBOR. had frozen and become very illiquid. Barclays raised its concerns with the FSA, which is why the report draws a Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) distinction between the situation before the summer of (PC): In Iceland bankers have been prosecuted, as well 2007 and the situation after, because different things as those politicians who presided over the 2008 financial were going on. In 2007-08 Barclays, and potentially crash, including the then Prime Minister, on charges of other banks, were concerned about their reputation and gross negligence. What lessons has the Chancellor learned the high cost of funding they were being charged, so he from Iceland on how to hold politicians and bankers to is right to draw that distinction. The FSA began account for their actions? investigating the complaints in 2009, as set out in the report. He asks a good question on whether any evidence Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman really is tempting was passed to the authorities by international bodies or me. As we do not see so much of the previous Prime other Governments. That is not in the report, so I am Minister, perhaps we should send him off to Iceland, happy to get back to him on whether there was anything where I think he would be particularly welcome. specific. 481 28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 482

Backbench Business strong, sustainable and resilient economy in which energy consumption and fossil fuel inputs are considered Green Economy vulnerabilities, not assets. [Relevantdocuments:TheTwelfthReportfromtheEnvironmental Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I note in the Audit Committee, Session 2010-12, A Green Economy, papers that have been provided for the debate that the HC 1025; and The Sixth Report of the Committee, Foreign Secretary has apparently been strongly converted Budget 2011 and Environmental Taxes, HC 878, and the to green energy, but that some of his Cabinet colleagues Government Response, HC 1527.] have not. Will the hon. Lady make every effort to get more people on the Foreign Secretary’s side in these 1.22 pm matters? Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I beg to move, That this House urges the Government to promote the right Laura Sandys: I do not think that the Foreign Secretary fiscal and regulatory framework to accelerate green growth as an has needed much persuasion or that there is any lack of intrinsic part of the UK’s economic recovery strategy. will or determination in the Government. As I will I want to thank the Backbench Business Committee continue to iterate, it is absolutely crucial that the for providing time for this important debate at this policies we have put in place are sustained consistently moment in the economic cycle, when we are considering into the future to attract the significant investment we the draft Energy Bill, which will reform the electricity need in the energy sector and the green economy. market, and different issues relating to the renewables obligation and other fiscal measures. I also thank the If we look internationally, we will see that the so-called Economic Secretary to the Treasury for agreeing to tiger economies are combining economic policies, subsidies, respond to the debate and so many colleagues on both industrial focus and energy efficiency solutions to build sides of the House for signing the motion. their stronger economies. It is that co-ordinated model that I propose to the Minister today. Globally, there will Few terms in today’s industrial dictionary are as be a race for resources, including energy, water and loose and ill defined as the word “green.” People talk food. Energy consumption will grow by 33% over the about “the green economy”and “green jobs.”The word—I next 20 years, with 50% of that growth coming from mean no disrespect to the hon. Member for Brighton, China and India. Even the Governor of the Bank of Pavilion (Caroline Lucas)—places a set of philosophical England has acknowledged that we must be cautious values around policies that, I believe, are not about about our exposure to fossil fuels and that they could be debating sandal economies. I strongly believe that the considered a risk to financial security. Any country that measures the Government have put in place are aimed is serious about future economic competitiveness, not at increasing productivity, improving output, supporting least this one, will ensure that it limits its reliance on greater competitiveness and building a resilient economy fluctuating and politicised energy inputs. Energy security, that is both lean and keen for the future. domestic production and low-input process re-engineering In my constituency, I have seen at close hand the are not, in my view, things that it would be nice to have; construction of a multi-billion pound wind farm. It is they are a total necessity. much more about heavy engineering than traditional In many ways that creates a challenge for politicians. green jobs. Those working at the cutting edge of new We need to come clean with the public and the private energy sources, vibration technology, surface engineering sector. We cannot con them that energy prices will come and friction reduction will deliver the so-called green down today, tomorrow or even any time soon. The revolution, but those individuals hold degrees in mechanical increase in global consumption is so marked that even engineering, not sustainability. The green deal will the great shale gas discoveries in the US will not have a implement energy efficiency measures in homes and long-term impact on global costs. From the domestic offices throughout the country thanks to skills that are perspective, Ofgem has calculated that domestic energy as wide ranging as construction innovation, research in prices will rise by 60% by 2016. plastics and synthetic materials and, of course, practical installation. From heavy engineering and the white It is the Government who will need to take an important coats in our university laboratories to those who fit role in the development of a long-term, secure and cavity wall insulation, all these jobs and all these resilient energy supply. Frankly, there are some of us in opportunities comprise part of that wide term, “the the Energy and Climate Change Committee who believe green economy.” that, whatever energy solution we adopt in the next few Today, the green economy is no sideshow; it represents years, the Government will have to stump up a lot more a significant part of the UK economy, with more jobs money than they thought to keep the lights on, but that than in information and communications technology, is a debate for another day. We need to deliver a strong finance and insurance, and the motor trade. With low- and sustainable energy sector that delivers as much carbon and environmental goods and services growing value as possible to the energy consumer and jobs and by 4.6% in 2009-10, it is a growth sector. However, we economic growth at the same time. To do that, we must also need to talk about our industrial and energy policy look at energies in similar terms, whether tax incentives in an international context. Why are South Korea, on fossil fuels or subsidies for the renewables sector. China and other Asian countries placing renewable energy and energy efficiency at the core of their industrial Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Does growth strategies? They are not overburdened with Green the hon. Lady agree that the £3 billion earmarked in the party candidates, and in some cases, such as China, they Budget to support the fossil fuel industry—oil and gas do not even need to secure votes. They are trying to drilling—undermines precisely the green agenda she is build what is absolutely essential to this country: a setting out? 483 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 484

Laura Sandys: It does not undermine that agenda. Laura Sandys: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments, We need to understand where subsidies, incentives and and, exactly as he says, there was an emerging industry tax reliefs are deployed throughout our energy sector. I and significant Government support, which saw the look to a future with a mixed energy economy that opportunities that the sector could offer to our industrial utilises all the different energy resources, but we must be policy and to energy security and resilience. On industrial transparent about where those subsidies lie. policy, we also supported the car industry. In the ’80s Oil and gas exploration, for example, has been hugely we gave generous incentives to Nissan to attract it to the beneficial to this country, as no one can deny, and that UK, and, when we look at our long-term, and now is why we subsidise the sector. Oil taxation measures, oil leading, role in the motor sector, we find that that has allowances, petroleum revenue tax safeguards, the ring- been a huge success. fenced expenditure supplement, the field allowance and So it is neither unusual nor wrong for government to coal investment aid are all important parts of the energy incentivise energy investment or to support industrial industrial strategy. As John Browne, formerly of BP, development, and that is why I am pleased that this has said: Government have put in place so many fiscal measures “People forget the government supported the oil and gas to do just that in relation to the new generation of supply chain in its early days: with generous tax incentives, energy sources and to investment in green technologies. training programmes, strategic infrastructure; and supportive There are unfounded rumours that some in government regulation.” have gone cool on the modern green agenda, but I know The Government are still doing so today. that not to be the case. I know that the Chancellor is committed to inward investment and to ensuring that Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Will companies such as Vestas reconsider their investment in my hon. Friend draw breath and think again? On this north Kent. suggestion that we have been subsidising oil and gas, we I know that my hon. Friend who represents Sheerness— have very high taxes on petroleum products and an extra tax on petroleum production called the petroleum Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): revenue tax, so where does she get this “subsidy” from? Sittingbourne and Sheppey.

Laura Sandys: The International Energy Agency Laura Sandys: I know that my hon. Friend the Member states that the fossil fuel sector is currently subsidised Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson), whose by $480 billion. main port is Sheerness, is very keen to ensure that in the south-east we secure an important manufacturer of Mr Lilley: In what form? wind turbines. I know that Treasury officials are totally committed, Laura Sandys: In all sorts of forms, from production as they were to the oil and gas sector in the ’70s and right the way through to— ’80s, to attracting the new jobs and growth that are emerging from the fastest-growing business sector in the Mr Lilley: Rubbish! UK; and I am sure that all in government are focused on securing the £200 billion of funds to rebuild our energy sector in a highly competitive capital investment Laura Sandys: Well, by 2020 the subsidy will amount market, where policy certainty is fundamental to investment to $660 billion. decision making. All that the Government need to do to unlock those Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): My hon. Friend will industrial opportunities is to sustain and reiterate their be aware that the noble Lord Stern, who produced a consistent and constant policies, with subsidies based seminal work just a few years ago warning of the only on proper evidence and with investment messages consequences of ignoring the impact of climate change, that resonate among the largest industrial companies emphasised the way in which past Governments have in the world, such as Siemens and GE, and the large given, and the current Government still give, tax breaks energy generators. and other subsidies and support to the fossil fuel industry—to the disadvantage of renewable energy. Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way to me for a second time, but I cannot let pass Laura Sandys: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his what she has just said about the Government’s “consistent comment. I do not see the issue as a positive for one and constant” green energy policies, because they have sector or another, but we must have transparency across been the exact opposite. Whether on solar or on wind, all the energy sources that we as a country decide they have chopped and changed, and that is exactly why to—let us say—invest in or to support in any way. so many solar companies and wind companies are so furious—because they cannot plan for the future. Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): Without wanting to get tied up in the argument about subsidy, whether it Laura Sandys: I totally disagree. On solar power and existed or the lack of it, I note the certain truth that feed-in tariffs, in particular, we inherited a totally there was significant state investment in the oil and gas unsustainable policy and system, which needed to be sector in the 1960s and ’70s, which was repaid only addressed, and unfortunately we have spent the past when the gas and oil started flowing. An analogy could couple of years recalibrating in order to ensure that we be drawn now with the green technology industry, where have in place sustainable, consistent and long-term policies we hope that such development might happen, too. that will provide investment certainty to such companies. 485 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 486

The UK is a great place to invest, and it has a strong environmental tax. In our further follow-up inquiries, vision for a modern, green and forward-looking economy. we will do what we can to obtain that definition and to On the impact of our fiscal measures and support, we scrutinise what is happening so that we get some real have a choice: to build that modern economy and progress. compete with the forward-looking, future-proofing A further relevant aspect is the Rio+20 summit that countries, such as South Korea, China and Japan; or to took place last week. Its outcome was extremely hold on to an outdated energy model that will not cost disappointing given the lack of a highly ambitious us any less but will leave us and our businesses stranded outcome and follow-up action plan. However, all the in the past. different parties who were there, from business people, to legislators, to parliamentarians, to members of civil Several hon. Members rose— society were in absolute agreement that if the high-level leaders cannot come up with significant outcomes, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am everybody else has to raise their game. So it is with our going to have to introduce a time limit, but let us see Parliaments. I urge the Economic Secretary to demonstrate how we go. If Members try not to use this much time, I that she understands this issue by saying what she is shall start off the limit at eight minutes, but I may have doing through Treasury policy and in making sure in to reduce it. How is that? Cabinet meetings that there is a joined-up approach towards environmental taxes. 1.37 pm I want to raise issues relating to my own constituency, Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): I congratulate because we will not deal with this situation nationally or the hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys), internationally unless we can deal with it locally as well. who serves with distinction on the Select Committee on It is a matter of great concern to me that a large number Energy and Climate Change, on bringing the debate to of people in Stoke-on-Trent are living in fuel poverty. the Commons this afternoon, and I note that the Economic Indeed, of the 40,678 households in Stoke-on-Trent Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for Norwich North, 10,120 are in fuel poverty, which is absolutely North (Miss Smith), is in her place, because if we really outrageous. It is a rate of 24.9%, which compares with are going to make progress on this most important the UK average of 18.6%—and even that is shocking. If issue, we will do so only if the Treasury puts the whole ever there was a reason we should be getting support issue at the core of its policy making. from the Treasury to address these environmental issues, it is that. We have a commitment to eliminate fuel It has always seemed to me perverse that we have a poverty by 2016, and we will not achieve that unless we Green Book that is anything but green, so the time has scale up everything that is done and look at how revenues come to ensure that the Treasury’s guidance on the can be reinvested so that whole communities see the national infrastructure programme, in particular, guarantees importance of moving towards the renewables future that every single policy is appraised and joined-up in that is so urgently needed. taking further forward the agenda of securing more renewable energy and more energy efficiency. I say this as someone who represents a constituency where the industrial revolution started because of our I shall try very much to comply with the limit on reliance on carbon. speakers—

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The limit is eight minutes, Ben Gummer: Will the hon. Lady comment on the and we will not go beyond that, so if we can please keep fact that the Labour Government spent almost £5 billion to it that will be much more helpful. I do not want to on trying to eradicate fuel poverty through various have to use a big stick, as I want to get everybody in. measures, with the consequence that fuel poverty went up in their 13 years in power? Joan Walley: I, too, want everybody in the Chamber to get into the debate. Joan Walley: I am not going to get involved in any Let me bring to the attention of the House the two kind of partisan debate. Unless we can bring in measures reports that the Environmental Audit Committee has that deal with fuel poverty in the short term and the produced, and which for the benefit of Members we long term, and get people’s commitment to work on this have tagged on the Order Paper: the Committee’s twelfth agenda instead of making political capital at the expense report on “A Green Economy” and its sixth report on of everybody else, we will not deal with the problem. “Budget 2011 and Environmental Taxes”, which shows In Stoke-on-Trent, we want to work with the coal how we have examined the Treasury’s role in the matter. authority to extract geothermal heat, which we see as We intended the two reports to be a starting point one part of the solution in the context of all the other and an overarching basis on which the discussions that things that need to be done, to provide the jobs that are now need to take place throughout business, local required, to provide training for people in the skills that government, the private sector and international will be needed for the new investment in renewables, development might be brought together, so that our and to see what we can do to bring about district policies—including what we do, and how we keep heating schemes for city centre developments. We want scrutinising what happens, in Parliament—can be tied to use the water that is underneath our city—albeit in to that agenda. We found that two years after making what is, to date, an innovative way—to do what other the commitment to increase the proportion of tax revenues countries, such as the Netherlands, have done to get the accounted for by environmental taxes, the Government investment that is needed. We cannot do that without still have no strategy for achieving this commitment. In fiscal changes and incentives, and ways of getting innovation addition, they have not published their definition of an and new technology on board very quickly. 487 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 488

[Joan Walley] make obsolete the previous assumptions on industrial revolutions? Has he taken that into account in his On fuel poverty, yes, we have had investment, but we calculations? have seen that piecemeal investments do not deal with the whole issue. That is why the previous Government Mr Lilley: I do not know which industrial revolutions invented the CERT—carbon emissions reduction target— the hon. Gentleman is referring to, but they certainly scheme. If we deal with whole communities, often in did not rely on our subsidising the use of more expensive areas of Victorian housing where there are huge issues energy to replace less expensive energy. with energy efficiency, it is possible to get the investment There are perfectly respectable, if not entirely convincing, that is needed in one fell swoop. That is the kind of arguments for saying that we have to replace cheap scaling up that is now so urgently needed. energy with expensive, less reliable energy to reduce We have aspirations to decarbonise our city. We have carbon emissions, and that that is a price worth paying, an untapped renewable resource, but at the same time to coin a phrase. However, the premise of this debate is we recognise the need for investment across a wide that we can generate economic growth by introducing range of different industries and sectors. If this debate fiscal measures to subsidise and promote green energy. helps to take that agenda further forward, and if our Let us be clear what that means: it means subsidising Select Committees can examine and scrutinise every the replacement of comparatively cheap and reliable single action that the Treasury is taking to make these energy from fossil fuels with more expensive and intermittent aspirations a reality, given the urgency of the need for energy from renewables. greater energy efficiency, it will have been worth while. Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the debate should 1.45 pm really be about whether we want to switch from higher- emitting to lower-emitting sources of energy, rather Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): I than having this complete confusion all the time about oppose the motion. I suspect that I will be the only its being a question of carbon emissions or renewable person to do so. It is not because we cannot have green energy? Renewable energy is very expensive, but there economy. We could—indeed, we once had a totally are plenty of sources of non-renewable energy that green economy. We relied on windmills to grind our would be far less carbon-emitting. flour, on watermills to saw our wood, on horsepower for transport, and on biomass—as burning wood is now Mr Lilley: My hon. Friend is quite right. We could called—for heat, but we abandoned those when we halve our emissions by switching to gas from coal, but discovered that coal could fuel a steam engine, that oil that does not please the greens. could fuel the internal combustion engine, and that gas and nuclear could give us electricity. Since then, we have Andrew George: Will the right hon. Gentleman give enjoyed huge increases in our material standard of way? living based very largely on comparatively cheap energy from fossil fuels. Mr Lilley: I am sorry, but I have given way a couple The great Victorian economist, Jevons, pointed out of times. nearly a century and a half ago why coal had ousted To suggest that we can make ourselves richer by wind: adopting more expensive energy is self-evidently ridiculous. “The first great requisite of motive power is that it shall be Most of what has been cited as evidence of green wholly at our command, to be exerted when, and where, and in growth involves creative accounting on a scale that what degree we desire. The wind, for instance, as a direct motive would make Enron blush. First, there is the suggestion power, is wholly inapplicable to a system of machine labour for that a green sector has arisen, which allegedly employs during a calm season the whole business of the country would be 1 million people, produces goods and services worth thrown out of gear.” £120 billion and, as the Deputy Prime Minister said the Much the same can be said about the unreliability of other day, contributes 8% to our GDP—although the solar and the discontinuity of tidal energy. My hon. House of Commons Library can find no source for that Friends may want to return to a mediaeval economy figure, other than the Deputy Prime Minister. that relies on unreliable, high-cost water, sunshine, wood Those figures aroused my natural scepticism, so I and wind, but I do not. I am a conservative, not a tracked them down and found that they came from a reactionary. Of course, it may be that some time in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills report future new sources of energy will become available that published earlier this year, entitled “Low Carbon are as reliable as, and cheaper than, fossil fuels—perhaps Environmental Goods and Services (LCEGS)”. My thorium reactors, nuclear fusion or cheaper battery scepticism was confirmed by the opening words, which storage, in conjunction with the intermittent renewables explain: that we are developing at the moment. I will rejoice if “The definition of the LCEGS sector is the result of five year’s those come about, but they are some way off. work”. You bet it was! It carries on: Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Does “The definition is broad”— the right hon. Gentleman accept that since the time of I can believe that— the quote he read out, we have had three further industrial “and includes activities that may appear under the overlapping revolutions, which makes his assumptions completely headings of Enviro, Eco, Renewable, Sustainable, Clean Tech, obsolete, and that we are in the middle of a further Low Carbon or No Carbon (and any other we might have clean-tech and biotech industrial revolution that will missed).” 489 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 490

That is not my comment, but theirs. It goes on: Andrew George: Will the right hon. Gentleman give “In the strictest sense it is not a ‘sector’ but a flexible construct way? or ‘umbrella’ term for capturing a range of activities spread across many existing sectors”. Mr Lilley: No, I have given way lots of times, including What does the sector contain? A quarter of it or more when it has reduced my own time. has nothing to do with low-carbon activities at all, but Let us give up on the belief that we will create a new relates to things such as sewage and water treatment, industry. All we are doing is subsidising jobs in other double glazing and controlling noise. Those are all countries, whose manufactured goods we import. It is excellent things, but they are not what we are talking quite clear from a look at the detailed figures in this about today and nothing to do with the low-carbon bogus sector that we are not creating an infant industry. economy. I will now give way to the hon. Member for St Ives The biggest sector within the low-carbon sector looks (Andrew George), who wished to intervene, because I promising: it is called “Alternative Fuel Vehicle” and have a couple of minutes to go. employs 105,000 people, making it the biggest employment area in the low-carbon sector. I thought, “Terrific, we Andrew George: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for are employing 105,000 people making electric cars.” giving way. He must address the fact that the low-carbon Sadly, however, we are not. I know one of the producers goods and services market, including the renewables of electric vehicles and, alas, it is no longer producing sector that he is talking about, is worth £3.2 trillion a them. It turns out that the name relates to mainstream year, employs 28 million people and is growing at a rate and other vehicle fuels. We are not starting off some of 4%. Either we turn our back on that as a market for great manufacturing revolution through all this subsidy the UK or we engage with it, in which case we have to at all. have production capital here.

Laura Sandys: Will my right hon. Friend give way? Mr Lilley: Exactly, but who is we? If we is the Government, the hon. Gentleman is proposing that Mr Lilley: I will, because I intervened on my hon. the Government subsidise industries to go for that Friend, even though it will use up my time. £3.2 trillion world industry. In fact, that is a bit of an exaggeration, but let us suppose that the figure is correct. Laura Sandys: The largest wind farm in the world is The Government are not allowed to do what he wants off the shore of my constituency, and 5,000 people are because of European Union rules, which he supports. going through the port of Ramsgate on the construction We cannot offer infant industries subsidies in this country, side. The investment that has come in to the area has or indeed anywhere else in the European Union, although been significant— some of our partners may do so in concealed forms. We do not and cannot, so let us not pretend that we are doing so. Mr Lilley: That is fine, but my hon. Friend has read her speech. It is a question I was hoping for. The subsidies that we deploy in this country go largely towards generating electricity by more expensive The growth of such sectors is either natural, in which means than is necessary, which increases the cost base case it is splendid, or it is the result of subsidies, in of our industry and makes it less competitive across the which case it is tosh. Subsidies can boost one sector at board. I hope that companies in this country will set up the expense rest of the economy, but we cannot make businesses in this sector, as in any other sector, to win ourselves richer by providing subsidies. If a person exports across the world, but the Government are not moves a pound note from their left-hand pocket to their allowed to support those companies, and let us not right-hand pocket, they are no richer. Subsidies can pretend that they are doing so when, in fact, they are make us worse off, however. If we invest in offshore subsidising imports. wind, which is twice as costly as conventional energy generation, we get half as much energy for a given sum of money. That makes us worse off, not better off. 1.56 pm Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): It is a Joan Walley: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? pleasure to follow someone who can be defined as the Don Quixote of this debate, both figuratively and literally Mr Lilley: Only if the hon. Lady is going to prove tilting at windmills. that we make ourselves better off by producing half as The answer to the speech we have just heard is that much electricity for a given sum of money. She is not. If the green economy is not just about underwriting one she gives up on that, I am glad. form of energy out at sea, but about putting the entire The only way in which subsidies might conceivably economy on a green footing in terms of resources, generate an economic revolution is if we subsided the energy and demand, and including our homes and our producers of goods and services that we could export;, vehicles. As the Government said a little while ago: but we are not allowed to do that under European rules. “A green economy is not a sub-set of the economy at large—our Instead, what we do is subsidise users, consumers and whole economy needs to be green. A green economy will maximise those who install generating capacity in this country. value and growth across the whole economy, while managing Unlike the Chinese and the Koreans, we are not allowed natural assets sustainably.” to subsidise those who manufacture wind farms or That is what a green economy is about. Those are not photovoltaic cells. We may want to, but we are not my words, but the first paragraph of the Government allowed to. The pretence that the subsidies that we are document, “Enabling the Transition to a Green Economy”. giving will promote infant industries is untrue. There is precisely one paragraph in the document about 491 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 492

[Dr Alan Whitehead] Dr Whitehead: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: not only are the jobs real, but they are long-term, what the fiscal incentives to move to that green economy skilled jobs. Other countries are investing heavily in might consist of, so this debate is timely. We must ask such jobs as that sixth-wave energy and industrial revolution what fiscal incentives we should put in place to bring takes off across the world. about those changes. My reference in an intervention to the several industrial Our aim in the economic recovery should not be revolutions since the horse and cart and steam relates to simply to return the UK economy to business as usual the fact that we are now beyond the information and as it was before the crash; it should be consciously to technology revolution and moving into the clean-tech use the opportunity provided by the need to reinvest biotech revolution, which is taking off throughout the and to re-engineer our economy to make decisive moves world. Who is the world leader in clean energy? We talk towards the green, sustainable, low-carbon economy about its pollution and energy profligacy, but it is that the first paragraph of that document suggests we China—a country that is clearly engaged in a conspiracy should be aiming for. We need to be clear about what of useless non-job creation in the green economy. that entails in how we craft our fiscal policy. Mr Lilley: I pointed out that the Chinese are allowed The emergence of a green economy cannot be brought to subsidise their manufacturers of, for example, wind about just by changing the dials on a few economic turbines, whereas we are not. Is the hon. Gentleman levers; it is fundamentally asymmetric with what has saying that we should subsidise such manufacturers, gone before. Low-carbon sustainable energy, for example, and how does he propose to alter the EU regulations to does not have an investment or operational pattern that enable that? is anything like what we have been used to for the past 100 years. We cannot construct the next generation of Dr Whitehead: As it happens, EU regulations enable low-carbon power plants and providers on the basis of the underwriting of investment in technology that will what has gone before. lead to a lower-carbon economy.The renewables obligation is regarded as state aid, but such investment can be We can no longer rely on the assumption that we can underwritten precisely because it brings new technology generally predict what capacity will be needed and then to market, reduces its costs and increases its prevalence. work out how best to meet it. Future energy policy must That is why the Chinese invested £34 billion in clean be based on investing first in consciously reducing energy in 2009, compared with £18 billion in the US. As demand and then in decarbonising the remaining demand. the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) has said, In doing that, we have to move to a different paradigm the goods for low-carbon markets are expected to reach of investment, because demand reduction is a process something like £4 trillion by 2015. Put simply, if we are not an asset, and because low-carbon plants are capital not in that market, we will be sidelined not temporarily, intensive but mean on fuel. In other words, low-carbon but permanently. plants take a lot of money to construct but, once constructed, use fuel that is either free or recovered Curiously, the recession gives our country an opportunity from other processes. The model of low and basic to be far more proactive than we might otherwise be. construction costs and investment in sourcing, transporting The cost of capital is low and liquidity is high because and using fuel, and paying for it as we go, is no longer of the paradox of thrift: there is no danger that investment applicable. in green goods, services and plants will crowd out other forms of investment. Fiscally, we can go for it, but in We can no longer rely on the assumption that the view of the asymmetry, there must be clear and long-term purpose of investment in resourcing the economy lies in signals. procuring material into the economy, using it and disposing What might we do? We could invest in decarbonising of the consequences. A linear model of investment and our homes, for climate change purposes and for demand expenditure no longer applies. We will need to move reduction purposes. We should insulate homes to make increasingly to a circular-resource economy, in which them fuel poverty-proof—as we know, the green deal we do not throw things away—there will be nowhere to will only scratch the surface. We will get £4 billion per throw them. We still throw things away, however. Something annum over the next 15 years from the EU emissions like 520 million tonnes of material comes into our trading scheme, carbon trading and the carbon floor economy for domestic consumption, and 200 million price. As a fiscal measure—without hypothecating what tonnes leaves as waste. Only 20% of our material is is in the tax pot—we could invest a large amount of that sourced from secondary inputs. money in ensuring that our homes are energy-efficient. The changes we need are about investing not just in We should invest in low-carbon energy provision in the green economy, but in jobs. Contrary to what the the way that I have outlined. If the state wills the ends of right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) that provision, it must underwrite it. That need not said, they are real jobs for the future. Moving our mean putting money in the pot, but it does mean resource base to the 70% EU27 recycling target would underwriting at least some of the risk. It is ridiculous, create something like half a million jobs in the UK by for example, that there is no state backing for the the early 2020s. contracts for difference that will replace the renewables obligation under the Energy Act 2011, and that no Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I demand-side measures, underwritten by feed-in tariffs, am listening carefully to what my hon. Friend says about are being introduced under the Act. We can get long-term jobs. If Hull becomes a wind turbine manufacturing value by taking such fiscal action. site, 700 jobs will be created directly and up to 10,000 jobs Fiscal policy need not involve underwriting money. will be created in the supply chain. Those are real jobs Holding the ring on risk and bringing new forms of for real people in my constituency. low-carbon power home is key. To get us to a position in 493 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 494 which we have a substantial number of ultra-low carbon in wind energy, or both. I would have more sympathy vehicles on the road, why not have a “feebate” system, for the first argument if wind turbine technology had whereby we use, as a fiscal measure, additional fees on stood still, but it has not. For instance, the new V164 high-carbon consuming vehicles to underwrite the new offshore turbines, which are being developed by Vestas low-carbon vehicles that come on stream? We have a on the Isle of Wight, each generate 7 MW of electricity. target of 1.7 million ultra-low-carbon vehicles on our It was with deep regret that we learned one week ago roads by the early 2020s. That is the sort of measure we that Vestas has decided not to renew its option for land should undertake. at the port of Sheerness, which had been set aside as the Above all, we should get real about the green investment site for a factory that would have produced the blades bank. The bank will have £3 billion as a fund until 2016, for the V164. That factory would have created 2,000 new or perhaps later, depending on whether the Chancellor jobs for my constituency, and many of them would have decides that it is ready for investment as a whole, yet last gone to people living in my constituency. Given that my year KfW, the German public green investment bank, constituency has a higher unemployment rate than the invested £24 billion—more than a third of its £70 billion average south-east constituency—in Sheerness East, where —on energy and climate change measures. We can do the factory would have been built, it is more than that if the Green investment bank is a bank, but it needs 11%—the decision by Vestas has been another blow to the ability to raise bonds and money at an early stage. the morale of my constituents. That is the sort of fiscal underwriting we need for this In many ways, Vestas’ decision is surprising, because green energy, resource and social revolution that we are Sheerness is an ideal location for a wind turbine factory, going through. We need to get on with that urgently, which is why I will be working closely with Swale and I urge the House to support the motion to assist borough council, Kent county council and the Department with that process. for Business, Innovation and Skills to attract another manufacturer to the Isle of Sheppey. Full planning 2.6 pm permission is in place, and we have the right infrastructure and a willing and ready work force; all we need is Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): somebody willing to take Vestas’ place. We will hear in the debate arguments for and against investment in renewable energy, although I can see only Mr Lilley: Will my hon. Friend confirm that the one one person in the Chamber who is against such investment. thing that none of those organisations can do is offer a Those on both sides of the argument would probably subsidy to anyone to come to his constituency to produce agree on two things: the first is that there is only a finite wind farm components? It might be desirable that they supply of fossil fuels, and the second is that Britain should—it would certainly be a better use of money relies too heavily on foreign imports for the energy than subsidising rich landowners to install wind farms—but needed to power its homes and businesses. it is not the case. Can he confirm that? Both factors are problems that need to be addressed if Britain is to have long-term energy security. Hon. Gordon Henderson: I can confirm that none of those Members have a choice: we can leave the problem for organisations can offer such a subsidy, but that is not to our children and grandchildren to solve in 40 or 50 years’ say that we cannot do something to attract an alternative. time, when it might be too late to find a solution, or we can get to grips with the problem now and ensure that Andrew George: The hon. Gentleman will surely future generations can switch on their lights. acknowledge that one thing that the sector, particularly The problems I mentioned are interlinked and can be the production sector, wants more than anything solved only by finding replacements for the fossil fuels else is the underbelly of a functioning sector—one on which Britain has become too dependent. There are where there is a market, even if only initially in the UK, a number of options, including nuclear power, shale and certainty. That is one thing that the Government gas, clean coal technology, biomass energy, anaerobic can and need to provide. digestion, ocean wave energy, tidal power and wind energy. The sensible long-term strategy would be not to Gordon Henderson: I agree, and I shall come to that major on any one of those alternatives, but to establish in a moment. Vestas has not given any reason for its a national plan that draws in power from all of those decision, so we can only speculate on why it decided to sources to supplement the reserves of oil that will pull out of Sheerness. A few months ago, it announced become increasingly scarce and expensive over the next that it was slowing down development of the V164 to few decades. take account of the current economic conditions and The advantage of establishing an alternative energy the needs of their potential customers, which is what industry is that most of the components needed to the hon. Gentleman touches upon. As I said, though, generate power could be sourced in Britain. That is I will return to that point later. particularly true of the renewable energy sector. As an That slow-down has resulted in the slipping of the island, we have the advantage not only of a limitless date for erecting the prototype VI64 from the end of flow of water, but also of access to all-year-round wind, 2012 to 2014. I can only assume that Vestas took the particularly offshore, which leads me nicely to that part decision—quite sensibly from a commercial perspective— of the green economic sector on which I would like to that it did not want to lay out more money in an option concentrate. on land for which it had no need for the foreseeable Many oppose an expansion in Britain’s wind capacity. future. What will happen in 2014 is anybody’s guess, They either say that wind turbines will never produce and that is a big worry both for my constituents and enough electricity to make them viable, or object to the those of my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight use of Government subsidies to encourage investment (Mr Turner). It is still conceivable, I suppose, that 495 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 496

[Gordon Henderson] Energy conservation would be labour-intensive, rather than capital-intensive, which is what nuclear investment Vestas will come to Sheerness in 2014, but it will only is about. I have been informed this week that officials in proceed with its project if it can obtain firm orders for the Department of Energy and Climate Change are the VI64, and no potential customers will commit to doing a deal that will be massively beneficial to EDF. those orders until they are clear about the Government’s All the other energy companies have dropped out of commitment to offshore wind energy. Currently, however, the nuclear programme in Britain, leaving EDF the the Government’s position is not clear, so I would like it monopoly supplier. It is effectively owned by the French to be made clear. Government—they own 85%—and our DECC officials That brings me to the issue of subsidies, which has are so obsessively pro-nuclear that they are going to been raised already. As a Conservative, I am not naturally strike a deal that will effectively subsidise EDF to the in favour of taxpayers’ money being used to help any tune of £5 billion. That money will go to EDF, a French business. If a product is good enough, it should be able company, and will be used to benefit French taxpayers, to stand on its own two feet. I accept, however, that French consumers and, no doubt, the French nuclear strategically Governments often use taxpayers’ money industry as well. It will not benefit us at all. That to invest in research and development in some industries, £5 billion could be spent in many other ways, particularly particularly where such developments are in the national on energy conservation. interest—the defence industry is a case in point, of The right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden course. I believe passionately that securing energy supplies is right that we need a base provision of core generation into the next century is in our national interest and that for peak times, but if we invest heavily in green energy it will benefit Britain if taxpayers’ money is used to of every kind in order to maximise energy provision in encourage the development of alternative sources of other ways, we could reduce that core requirement to its energy, whether nuclear power, shale gas or offshore very lowest level. Germany has already done it. I understand wind. For that reason, I will gladly support the motion. that it has invested gigantic amounts in all sorts of alternative energy, such that, on warm summer weekend days, they can effectively shut down their power stations 2.14 pm and tick over on the alternative energy provision. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I defer to the previous two speakers on their knowledge of energy Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): The hon. matters, but I have some points I wish to make. I was Gentleman is absolutely right about energy efficiency interested in the suggestion from my near neighbour, and nuclear power. I echo everything he has said. Will the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden he join me in urging the Government to put more (Mr Lilley), who seems to be strongly in favour of emphasis on energy efficiency in the proposed electricity getting rid of the EU’s restrictions on state aids. I market reforms, the original intention of which was to completely agree. I am completely in favour of state introduce the concept of “negawatts”, which would put aids, where appropriate, and we should not be constrained energy saved on a par with energy generated and therefore from applying them by the EU—but then my Eurosceptic revolutionise the energy market and fundamentally change views are, I think, fairly well known. My hon. Friend the dynamic? the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) made a thorough, erudite speech that I will read in Kelvin Hopkins: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his detail with interest later. informed intervention. The problem is that the energy My concern is about energy conservation. Massive companies have been far too influential in DECC and investment in energy conservation has everything to have been able to bend the arms of even our Secretaries commend itself, while investment in nuclear generation of State, because the central core of government decided has nothing to commend itself. With energy conservation, years ago that it wanted to keep the companies and every home, office, public building and factory in the nuclear power on side. Those companies make money country can save enormous amounts of energy, so out of selling energy, not conservation or solar power at rather than generating energy, we need to conserve it. It a local level; they do not make a profit out of that kind is cheaper, too, particularly for the less-well-off living in of energy provision. Indeed, we must have strong constituencies such as mine, where some people still do Government intervention to achieve that. In Germany, not have roof insulation—aerial photographs at night they have done it; with their feed-in tariffs being brought show the infrared glow from those homes. These are in years ago, the Germans are effectively decades ahead poor people who cannot afford to invest, so it is something of us. In just a decade or two, half of their energy will that the Government have to attend to. be provided by alternative means. We are talking about Investment in energy efficiency would be enormously enormous proportions of energy, and we have to go cheaper than focusing simply on generation. The for that. Association for the Conservation of Energy has produced It has been said so many times, but we have wind on a report in the past few months demonstrating that such our shores and we are surrounded by sea and tides. We investment would be as much as £1 trillion cheaper over are aware of a positive move towards using the Severn time than investment in generation and would create barrage, that will produce enormous amounts of our hundreds of thousands of jobs. Many of those jobs, in energy, but there are other forms of generation, too, home insulation, would not be high skilled, so a lot of which could be flexible and provide us with base load, unemployed people, particularly young people, in my such as generation by burning organic waste, or anaerobic constituency who do not have high skills would be digestion. Unlike with wind and sun, we can turn that ideally suited to working in the sector. We desperately on and off. If we invested heavily in anaerobic digestion, need these sorts of jobs at every level. so that all the organic waste was used to produce 497 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 498 methane, which could be used either directly or to sector, particularly given that recent certificate values generate electricity, it would provide a massive contribution have fallen as low as 10p. While this industry is maintaining to the core base load of our electricity and energy an ongoing dialogue with the Minister’s colleagues in provision. We have to go in this direction. We have to the Department for Transport, looking to find an alternative resist the power and controls of the energy companies solution, Treasury support and awareness is also vital. and go for an alternative energy and green energy The second area of policy I wish to highlight is house society. building. The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin I congratulate the hon. Member for South Thanet Hopkins) mentioned the efficiencies that can be made (Laura Sandys) on securing this important debate. If we through better insulation. Better use of water should do not move in this direction, we will be in serious also be highlighted, as should better and more efficient economic trouble as well as environmental trouble. boilers. Linden Homes, a house building company that operates in my constituency, has come up with an innovative way to help the Government to progress a 2.21 pm zero carbon policy. Its proposal to create a “new homes Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) sustainability bonus”, has the potential to contribute (Con): I add my congratulations to those of other towards a zero carbon policy in a sustainable and colleagues to my hon. Friend the Member for South affordable way, at a time when the industry faces significant Thanet (Laura Sandys)on securing today’s important challenges. debate. As a member of the Environmental Audit At present, all new homes constructed in the UK are Committee, I am conscious—as our Chair, the hon. required to meet stringent Government energy and Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), who water efficiency standards—and rightly so. This company’s is no longer in her place, mentioned earlier—of the idea, as part of the policy mix for national carbon need to have a green thread running through every area reduction, is that developers could, for all new units of Government policy. That, of course, gives us the built from 2013, contribute a new homes sustainability opportunity to have a very wide-ranging debate today. I bonus paid into a central fund, which would then be am conscious, however, of the number of Members used to find the most cost-effective ways to reduce who wish to speak, so I shall try to keep my comments carbon within the UK’s existing housing stock, which brief and restrict them to just two areas. chronically falls behind new home standards and has First, we have seen over the last few days the importance significantly higher energy and water consumption. Only of fuel tax as a fiscal measure, and we are all well aware 40% of all homes currently have energy-efficient boilers. of the impact of high fuel prices on our constituents—not Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) just on motorists, but on the consumers of goods (Con): My hon. Friend is making a very good point transported by road, which in this country is, of course, about existing housing stock, which is the majority of absolutely everything. The carbon emissions from road the stock in this country. Retrofitting and improving transport make up a significant proportion—over one energy efficiency in those homes is good not only for fifth—of the UK’s total CO2 emissions. Passenger cars, business, but for consumers, particularly for those on in particular, emitting in the region of 76 million tonnes fixed incomes such as the frail elderly and people in of CO2 annually, contribute 13% of all CO2 emissions. other vulnerable groups. Clearly, this is an area where Government policy must be used constructively not only to encourage shifts Caroline Nokes: I thank my hon. Friend for that in modes of transport, but to encourage road transport comment. He makes exactly the point I was moving on users to look for cleaner, greener alternatives. I am a big to. fan of differential rates of vehicle excise duty, as there is Last year, the Environmental Audit Committee went nothing that concentrates the mind of the user quite so to visit the Sustainable Building Centre in Leamington much as choosing to drive a car that attracts a lower Spa, where we learned that if everyone in the UK with duty tariff. I urge Ministers to ensure that ultra-low gas or oil central heating installed a high-efficiency levels of duty are retained for the cleanest and most condensing boiler, we would save more than 6.5 million efficient engines. tonnes of CO2 every year—and that is only one aspect. I do not wish to dwell today on passenger transport Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Lady makes a good point, and the private car, so I shall move on to road haulage but a 20% VAT charge is still made, when it could be and the freight industry. This is an area of policy only 5% VAT. That would be one simple subsidy to relating to green transport, which is a matter of concern encourage people to invest in better and more efficient to me, and I have asked a number of parliamentary boilers. questions on the subject. I particularly emphasise today the duty differential for used cooking oil biodiesel, Caroline Nokes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that, which expired in March this year. I appreciate that but my point is that if home developers were obliged to biodiesel is currently little used in the passenger car pay into a central fund, we could start to ensure that sector, although it does have potential; it is far more people in social housing and those on the lowest incomes significant in freight transport, which accounted for do not merely think about cheaper energy-efficient measures, 26 million tonnes of CO2 emissions in 2010. but have a grant to enable them to achieve that. The Without the support of the duty differential, many hon. Gentleman mentioned insulation earlier, but biodiesel users will inevitably switch back to fossil fuels, improvement is possible from double glazing, too. resulting in higher emissions and risking the loss of up Particularly at a time when my constituency and to 3,000 jobs in the low-carbon economy. The double parts of the south-east are under water stress, we must certificates allowed under the renewable transport fuel start to look at finding ways better to use our water. We obligation look unlikely to be able to support this need to be more efficient through rain water harvesting, 499 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 500

[Caroline Nokes] throughout the country, I am sure that such technology will be needed more and more, and I am pleased that using grey water and taking simple measures to improve South East Water wanted to install the system as soon sanitaryware systems, so that the cistern from the lavatory as possible. I urge the Minister to support companies uses less water. All these measures could be done very such as i2O which are employing innovative and sustainable cheaply indeed. ways of managing water levels and distribution. According to the Energy Saving Trust, each person in Let me again congratulate my hon. Friend the Member the average UK home currently uses 150 litres of water for South Thanet on securing the debate. I look forward a day. Level 6 of the code for sustainable homes seeks to to hearing the Minister’s response. reduce that usage to just 80 litres—but, significantly, that applies to new-build properties. As I have already said, however, they are a tiny proportion of our housing 2.30 pm stock, and far greater savings—both in litres per day Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I and cost to the consumer—can be achieved through congratulate the hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura working on older properties. Sandys) on securing this important debate. Independent research has indicated that by shifting I am genuinely pleased to observe a fight-back from the focus on to the existing housing stock of 25 million many Tory Back Benchers who are now trying to make homes, rather than on the already energy-efficient new-build the Government see the huge economic and employment sector, great efficiencies and more value for money can benefits of a green economy, as well as the obvious be delivered for the nation as a whole. That scheme environmental benefits. The scale of the challenge that would mean that existing home owners would see reduced they face was amply demonstrated by the speech of the energy bills, social housing associations would benefit right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), from reduced maintenance costs and local employment who sounded as though he himself was still living in the would receive a boost, thanks to the number of trades dark ages. people needed to carry out the work. New home buyers I do not know where the right hon. Gentleman has would be spared additional costs, which would in turn been for the past few decades, but when I last looked, help to ensure the viability of many development Germany did not seem to be an economy that was projects—a critical factor for the UK economy given struggling. Germany is doing incredibly well, and it is the already chronic under-building due to economic being built on an economy that is light years ahead of constraints. ours in terms of the use of the green economy. Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman that we ended the Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): I congratulate stone age not because we ran out of stones, but because my hon. Friend on her speech. She is making some we found a cleaner, more efficient way of behaving. In important points about both water and heating, and the same way, we will leave the fossil fuel economy about the work that can be generated. Does she agree behind because we now see cleaner, more efficient ways that it is vital for the Government, when designing of behaving. schemes, to work closely with the installers, who are key As for subsidies, there is a world of difference between to people’s decisions about how to implement these subsidies that are time-bound until new technologies policies in their homes? reach, in this instance, grid parity, and subsidies that have been going on for decades—as they have in the Caroline Nokes: My hon. Friend is right. The case of nuclear and fossil fuels—and are driving us ever Government must work hand in hand with industry closer to climate catastrophe. and the installers to ensure that we come up with Much of the debate has rightly focused on fiscal schemes that not only look good on paper, but work in measures. Three years ago, the green fiscal commission the real world. revealed that a “polluter pays” tax shift would provide a Evidence suggests that if the hearts and minds of significant boost for UK low-carbon jobs, as well as consumers are to be won over to energy efficiencies, increasing competitiveness. It suggested that such a there must be demonstrable cost savings for them. In measure would reduce emissions by more than 30% by response to a survey conducted in April this year, 41% 2020, that it would create about 455,000 jobs, and that it of people said that they would be prepared to pay would receive a great deal of public support. nothing more to make energy efficiency improvements It is important to bear in mind how widespread that in their homes. A scheme of this kind has the potential support potentially is. Let me quote these words: to provide grants for householders, enabling work to be done at no cost to them while also saving money, “I don’t underestimate how difficult it will be to rebuild public reducing emissions, and helping the Government to confidence that green taxes are genuine environmental policy… not just stealth taxes… I am… determined to rebuild this trust… meet their targets. Surely that it is a win-win situation. As leading green… Professor Paul Ekins has rightly pointed out, I have mentioned water efficiency. A company operating this type of green tax switch might be termed a ‘win-win-win’ in my constituency, i2O, has developed the advanced outcome… The time for action is now. Future generations will pressure management solution, the world’s first system not forgive us if we fail.” to monitor and control water pressure through a pipe Those are all words with which I agree, but if a week network. It is an extremely successful design which has in politics is a long time, four years is evidently an been deployed throughout the world, and is most widely eternity.Those words were spoken by the present Chancellor deployed to regulate water flow and manage leakages. to a Green Alliance conference back in 2008. I agree Last month South East Water awarded the company a with all his words from 2008, but unfortunately they £1.5 million contract to help to reduce its leakage have not been matched by any real action since he has problems. In view of last month’s drought conditions been in a position to put them into action. 501 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 502

I hope that today’s debate will enable us to remind the Members support that EDM because they know Chancellor of his words of four years ago, and help to that, sadly, as it is currently designed, the green deal convince him that he should throw his weight behind policy instrument is extraordinarily weak and the energy the UK’s aim of becoming a world leader in low-carbon company obligation part of it—the bit that is supposed industries. If he does not believe in the environmental to be tackling fuel poverty—looks set to fail miserably reasons for such action, he certainly ought to believe in both against the Government’s own objectives and in the economic and employment benefits. I also hope that terms of doing what is needed to cut carbon emissions we shall be able to persuade him to convince the Treasury and end fuel poverty. The truth is that the final shape of that its flagship “green bank” ought to be given the that fuel poverty package could result in a 50% drop in power to borrow as soon as possible. the funding targeted at low-income and financially deprived More broadly, I should like the Chancellor to consider households. There will be far less money in the ECO measures such as “green quantitative easing”. I was than there is in the measures that are being phased interested to note that even the former Government out—the carbon emissions reduction target, the community chief scientist Sir David King has echoed my calls for energy saving programme and Warm Front. green conditions to be attached to the billions of pounds that are currently being poured into our banks. I think Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) that the money should be going directly into the economy (Con): I think the hon. Lady is being disingenuous, to rather than into private banks, but wherever it is going, say the very least, in respect of this Government. It is the Government should at the very least ensure that because of the policies of this Government that we are green conditionality is involved, so that we can ensure seeing investment in increasing numbers of offshore that it goes into low-carbon infrastructure. Crucially, wind farms, not only off the Kent coast, but, as I am they should also recognise that the low-carbon economy sure my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter is far more labour-intensive than the fossil fuel economy Aldous) will point out in his speech, off our coast in that it will replace, so it makes good employment sense Suffolk. Will the hon. Lady at least accept that there to invest the funds in green rather than fossil fuel have been many good advances in green energy—some measures. of which are being delivered right now in Suffolk? The one thing businesses are united in calling for is certainty. The CBI says about low-carbon investment: Caroline Lucas: That has probably happened in spite “Businesses need, above all else, policy certainty, consistency of Government policy, not because of Government and clarity over the long-term”, policy. [Interruption.] I hear the muttering on the yet that has been conspicuous by its absence under this Government Benches, but what I say is true. The measures Government—demonstrating a failure of leadership by of investment figures show that under this Government them. The sad news about Vestas reversing its previous investment in green technologies has decreased. decision to invest in the wind turbine manufacturing plant at Sheerness is just the latest casualty of the Dr Poulter rose— Government’s failure to provide that most basic condition. Caroline Lucas: I apologise, but I will not give way Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): Is the hon. again, as I do not have much time left. Lady aware that in the last three days Vestas has also For many low-income households the green deal decided to close a manufacturing plant in China? financial mechanism simply does not stack up. [Interruption.] The mechanism is based on loans with Caroline Lucas: It does not make me feel any better to interest rates of between 6% and 7%. That creates the know it is also closing plants in other parts of the risk that these loans will be taken up by middle-class world. It has clearly said one of the reasons why it did and well-off households, which might be able to afford not go ahead in Sheerness was that it did not have to take them up without needing any support, rather enough orders for turbines on the order book. If that is than by less-affluent families with next-to-nothing in a problem here in the UK, we should be addressing their pockets. Although there are limitations in respect that, rather than worrying about what is happening in of this market mechanism, if we are going to use it, we China. will at least need support to bring interest rates down to One measure that would provide huge and tangible a more realistic level—as Germany has done through benefits both in my constituency and the rest of the UK the development bank, KfW. is a massive investment in making the UK housing Renewable energy enjoys massive public support. That stock super-energy efficient. As others have said, that is true even of wind—although judging by the outcry would not only be good in terms of getting our emissions from some Tory Back Benchers, we would be forgiven down and creating lots of jobs; crucially, it would help for assuming otherwise. In November, a YouGov survey tackle fuel poverty as well. This measure should be found strong support for renewables, with 60% of people funded not through more levies on energy bills—as the supporting wind power subsidies. The Prime Minister Government plan, and which is inherently regressive—but said in his half-speech at the clean energy ministerial from using funds such as the revenue from the carbon meeting in April that he passionately believed that the price floor and auctions of carbon emissions permits rapid growth of renewable energy was vital to the UK’s through the EU emissions trading scheme. That would future, but, sadly, his Government’s policies do not have benefits in job creation, tackling high energy bills reflect those warm words. Instead, we hear rumours and achieving rapid emissions cuts. Some 118 Members that he and his Chancellor are seeking backroom deals have now signed the early-day motion on the Energy for a 25% cut in subsidies to onshore wind. Any reduction Bill Revolution campaign, which calls for precisely this beyond the proposed 10% cut to wind subsidies would step. fly in the face of environmental and economic common 503 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 504

[Caroline Lucas] 7% of the UK’s electricity, having generating capacity of just under 4,000 MW.It has been investing in research sense, jeopardising the future of both onshore wind and and development and in new facilities to co-fire with an investment in other renewables across the country, as increasing percentage of biomass. It has proven that its well as the thousands of jobs they could bring. current plant can successfully operate with 12.5% co-firing, The solar feed-in tariff fiasco provides another example and there are plans to increase that to 20% and to build of coalition Ministers creating harmful uncertainty. As a new power station that would be fired with 100% one solar company in my constituency described it, the biomass. Eggborough power station proposes to convert industry has had to endure a series of “unsettling its 1,960 MW generating capacity to run entirely on knee-jerk changes”that have undermined not only investor biomass. confidence, but public confidence in the solar industry. Those are the big wins we need if we are to secure our Solar energy has huge potential in the UK and it is a targets for reducing CO2 emissions and ensure that the tragedy that we are not supporting it more. green economy flourishes. Biomass results in 80 to 90% Marine energy also has massive potential. With the less net CO2 emission than coal, and these are the right support the UK industry could seize almost a facilities we need to produce power when we need it and quarter of the world’s potential market, according to not just when the wind blows. They also currently the Carbon Trust. That would be worth an estimated provide secure employment for a large number of people. £29 billion per annum to the UK economy by 2050 and We are talking about world-leading companies that would support more than 68,000 jobs. Sadly, that potential have proven that their technology works and that have looks hugely unlikely to be realised, given that we have a solved the supply and materials handling problems. Government Budget with a £3 billion tax break for However, they cannot provide a solution on financial more offshore oil and gas drilling— viability without having a UK policy framework that supports it, which is why I am delighted that we have a Mr Lilley rose— Treasury Minister here with us today. Drax is already the UK’s largest producer of renewable energy, even Caroline Lucas: I will not give way, because I am without yet running its current renewable capacity to running out of time. I am sorry. I was going to say that the full—the current renewables obligation framework we also have a draft Energy Bill that threatens to usher does not make it financially attractive to do so. Drax is in a new dash for gas. willing and able to go further, but the policy framework Finally, in my last 40 seconds, I wish to pick up on the must support rather than hinder it. way in which “accelerate green growth” is being used in Unlike onshore wind, the transition to biomass in my the motion, as we need to be a little clearer about that. constituency enjoys considerable local support. The Of course we need faster growth in some sectors of our local labour force has the expertise to support the plant economy, including in renewable energy and energy and sees it as a great new employment opportunity. efficiency, but we must stop pretending that we can have Public support is important and these projects enjoy infinite growth on a planet of finite resources. The support rather than enduring local opposition. I am current economic crisis gives us the opportunity to afraid that the same cannot be said of onshore wind change direction and get on the path to a very different farms, which are proposed in many numbers in my kind of economy, one that it is not measured solely by constituency. There is widespread knowledge about power GDP.The problem with GDP is that it measures everything generation and I am repeatedly reminded that more in cash terms; it does not measure what is growing, and than 3,000 onshore turbines operating last year, which it does not give us any sense of the quality of the received nearly £400 million of subsidy, produced only economy and whether it is delivering true well-being. 3.3% of the electricity consumed. Such a level of subsidy for wind, which proudly Several hon. Members rose— claims to be the cheapest form of renewable energy, is not a particularly good use of the money that is being Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I call levied from the consumer, driving more of them into Nigel Evans. [Laughter.] I do apologise. I meant, of fuel poverty every year. Electricity that can be produced course, Nigel Adams. as and when required, at any time of the day or night, must be worth more than electricity produced only when the wind blows. 2.41 pm Electricity generated near to the industry and homes Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): That is not it supplies via a major node on the grid must be worth the first time I have been mistaken for Nigel Evans, and more than power from the wind generated in some I see that as a great compliment, so thank you, Madam remote location. Electricity generated competitively with Deputy Speaker. a local labour force must be worth more than electricity I am pleased to be contributing to this debate on the that depends on imported turbines with low UK labour green economy and the fiscal support it receives. Like content. We should address those issues and I appeal to many other hon. Members, I congratulate my hon. the Economic Secretary to the Treasury to allocate our Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) financial resources accordingly. on securing it. It is particularly important in my constituency, because of the substantial investment being 2.46 pm made in sustainable biomass and carbon capture. Drax and Eggborough power stations are based in my Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I, constituency, as is Kellingley colliery, the deepest coal too, congratulate the hon. Member for South Thanet mine in the UK. Drax currently produces more than (Laura Sandys) on securing the debate. When the coalition 505 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 506 came to power, it talked about rebalancing the economy, manufacturing factory. There will be 700 permanent including moving from services to manufacturing, moving jobs at Siemens and up to 10,000 in the supply chain from London and the south-east to the regions and working alongside different companies around the Hull moving towards a more low-carbon economy. In my and Humber area. area of the world, the Humber region, the green economy Let me put that into context. My constituency has is one way in which we can see growth brought back 43.6 people chasing every job vacancy, so jobs are the into the local economy. key issue for my city and people who live in north Hull. I understand that three of the world’s largest offshore At the moment, more than one in 10 young people in wind farms are around the UK and Hull is particularly the city are not in education, employment or training, well placed for the third round, as we have the Hornsea so it is important to do something fairly dramatic to and Dogger Bank areas of the North sea. I want to talk ensure the regeneration of what was once a great city. about the benefits to my area of the green economy and Hull has the potential, with the opportunities offered by about why it is important that the Government are clear renewables, to become a world centre of excellence. We in their approach. need to recognise the investment that is going not only At the moment, the Hull and Humber area is working into the green economy and the manufacturing side of up a proposal for a green port at east Hull. The proposal turbines but into the wider economic benefits for areas is for Siemens to come to the port and set up a wind such as mine. That is so important during a double-dip turbine manufacturing site for turbines that could then recession, and the green economy is growing at a rate of be used out in the North sea. We are well placed about 4%. I am sure that all parties would recognise because of the deep channels in the Humber estuary that we need to do everything we can to support job and the sailing time to the proposed Hornsea and creation and this particular industry. Dogger Bank wind farm areas. At the moment, we are I want to give the Government their due regarding talking about a £250 million investment in Hull, with the regional growth fund, through which £25 million the further investment of £100 million through the was made available to work on the supply chain supply chain that we hope will come to the city when infrastructure that needs to be put in place to support Siemens arrives. I must say to the right hon. Member the work that Siemens will, we hope, bring to the city. for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), who is no We also have enterprise zones on both banks of the longer in his seat, that my understanding was that a Humber. I am waiting to see exactly how they are going financial package was available to support such investment to work, but the Government have given us the largest in the city in recognition of how important the development area of enterprise zone in the country. So, we hope that was not just to my city but to the wider economic we are set, with a fair wind, to move forward, with situation in the Humber and around the United Kingdom. Siemens coming to the city and with that renewables hub being developed. Laura Sandys: I think the regional growth fund has Let me make two points about the Government’s given support to many of those companies as they open approach. First, I am very concerned that any decisions up their investment, to secure investment in Hull as well the Government make on energy policy should be evidence- as in Sheerness. Perhaps the hon. Lady could provide based. The hon. Member for South Thanet made this clarification on that point. point in her opening remarks. We need clarity and transparency in policy and I am for ever asking the Diana Johnson: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Government, in relation to all sorts of areas, where the intervention. I will talk about the regional growth fund, evidence is that what they propose will work. It would but under the previous Government funding was made be very helpful if the Minister, in his response, set out a available for ports so that they could develop projects commitment to provide reassurances about energy policy such as the wind turbine manufacturing that I mentioned. being evidence-based. The industry is looking for that We need to recognise that not only the previous Government and is keen to know why certain decisions are made. We but, to give them some credit, this Government have also need to consider that, with investment now, the taken steps to support the green economy through wind costs will come down in future. We know that the costs turbine manufacturing. I think it is a combination of of the offshore wind industry will come down over the two things. I do not think we can deny that the time—the supply chain will ensure that—and that subsidy previous Government did a lot around the green economy, will reduce over time. with the very important legislation in the Climate Change My second point is about the Government’s Act 2008, which was the first of its kind in the world. I announcements, which need to be very clear and quick. will come to the regional growth fund in a moment. The drip-drip of different possible announcements is The North sea has been called the “Saudi Arabia of very unhelpful. I also think that procrastination is a renewables”. There is huge potential for growth in the problem. Things need to be got on with. These mixed economy. Work on Green Port Hull is going exceptionally messages are a problem and I have to say that the well and we are moving steadily, I hope, towards Siemens Treasury seems to be causing the biggest problem. The actually signing on the dotted line later this year. I pay Chancellor seems to have indicated in the past that he tribute to the Associated British Ports manager, Matt will not allow economic growth to be held back by Jukes, as well as Lord Haskins, who has been the green considerations, but clearly most of us in the chair of our local enterprise partnership, Councillor Chamber today would say that green issues could drive Steve Brady at Hull city council and Ian Kelly at the the economy. chamber of commerce. This has been an example of the Finally, I understand that the consultation on the public sector and the private sector working successfully banding for renewables obligation certificates has taken together on the green economy. There are potentially us up to only 2017. Even with a fair wind and a 300 construction jobs on the Siemens site building the relatively quick start, the green port in Hull will not 507 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 508

[Diana Johnson] my constituency, and in Great Yarmouth, and centre for offshore renewable engineering designation for those begin until 2015, which will only give the industry two two ports. years of certainty about its returns. We have to look To realise the full potential of green growth, the much more to the long term when we are asking industry Government need to address four challenges. First, to make huge investments. there is a need for coherence from Government. Green I hope there is cross-party support for the motion. investment is highly mobile and globally foot-loose. Labour introduced the Climate Change Act. We are Investment will flow to the most attractive destinations. committed to a green economy, and I very much hope It is therefore important that the Government continue that the Conservatives will fulfil their promise to be the to send the right message: the UK is the best place to greenest Government ever. invest, with a stable fiscal regime and a sound pricing mechanism. That is how we shall achieve the necessary investment in new energy technologies. 2.55 pm It is also important to provide international investors Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I congratulate my with the confidence to invest in the UK. Investors need hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura to have faith that all departments of Government are Sandys) on securing the debate. Realising the full potential serious about the green economy. There should be a of the green economy is vital to securing economic coherent and consistent framework and the right rhetoric recovery and creating new jobs. must emanate from the Treasury. The green economy is performing particularly well at Secondly, there is a need to provide 21st-century present and it is important that the UK takes full infrastructure. That means smart metering, a smart grid advantage. Last year, the low carbon goods and services and in due course a European supergrid. Important market grew by 4%, and investment in renewable energy work has already begun on rolling out superfast broadband, around the world reached record levels. In 2011, there and it is important that that does not stall. There is also was an estimated £6.9 billion of investment in the UK a need to continue with the work to achieve a 21st-century renewables sector, with 21,000 jobs announced. Research renaissance on our railways, and the Economic Secretary and development work is ongoing, and renewable to the Treasury is playing an important role in that in technology is becoming more competitive. The offshore East Anglia. wind cost reduction taskforce estimates that it should My third point relates to the green investment bank be possible to cut the cost of offshore wind by a third by and its right to borrow. I have already commended the the end of the decade. work that the Government are doing in setting up the It is important to take advantage of those opportunities GIB, which will operate from 2013-14, a year earlier so that as a country we are less vulnerable to rising than anticipated. It is envisaged that the bank will have global energy prices. We need to future-proof our economy the right to borrow from 2015-16. However, I must against the vagaries of fluctuating fossil fuel prices. emphasise the vital importance of the GIB having Such fluctuations restrict household expenditure and powers to borrow, so that it can reach its full potential business investment decisions as well as pushing up and provide certainty to investors. It must have that inflation. power so that it is not just a Government-run fund. The £3 billion of start-up funding should unlock £15 billion- It is appropriate to commend the Government for the worth of private sector investment, but that is a drop in work they have done in the past two years. In many the ocean compared with the £200 billion of investment respects they have laid the foundations upon which a needed to invest in energy infrastructure up to 2020. successful green economy can be built. They are tackling difficult challenges that do not have straightforward It is important not to pursue the option of borrowing solutions. A good start has been made. through the national loans fund to fulfil the GIB’s borrowing requirements. If that is done, there will be no The fourth carbon budget, for the period 2023-27, independence at all. The GIB needs to be able to has been set and the green deal starts this autumn. borrow independently from the capital markets. It is The Government have brought forward the green important to learn from the examples in Germany, investment bank and have invested £3 billion as its where KfW leverages its equity by a multiplier of 28, initial capitalisation. It is good news that the Enterprise and the Netherlands, where Bank Nederlandse Gemeenten and Regulatory Reform Bill will enshrine in legislation achieves a multiplier of 59. My fourth point is that we the green investment bank’s objectives, embed its operational need to provide people with the skills and training independence and provide Government with specific needed to take up the many exciting and diverse job powers to finance it. opportunities in the green economy. It is welcome that the Government are tackling electricity In many respects, that meeting of minds and hearts in market reform as part of the draft Energy Bill, which is the rose garden of No. 10 in May 2010 seems a distant at present before the Environment and Climate Change memory, and perhaps another country. However, it is Committee. I shall not comment on EMR in detail as important to remember that one of the objectives in the we shall return to it in the autumn, but it is an extremely coalition’s programme for government was the Prime important subject where it is vital that the right decisions Minister and Deputy Prime Minister’s shared vision of are made. In tackling EMR five guiding principles building a new economy from the rubble of the old, should be pursued: timeliness, simplicity, certainty, supporting sustainable growth and enterprise, balanced transparency and coherence. across all regions and industries, and promoting the I commend the Government for the work they have green industries that are so important for our future. done locally in East Anglia. There is an enterprise zone I would like to promote “Leading the Way: Green aimed at the renewable energy sector in Lowestoft, in Economy Pathfinder manifesto 2012-2015”, a document 509 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 510 about which I suspect the Economic Secretary to the 1870s, largely because of a lack of productive economic Treasury knows a great deal. It is a report produced by output. We face endemic long-term unemployment and the New Anglia local enterprise partnership, covering mass underemployment, with 2 million people forced Suffolk and Norfolk, setting out its route map for a into part-time or temporary work because of not enough transition to a green economy. It was launched earlier full-time jobs are being generated in the economy. this month, and it will be presented to the Government Investment in the green sector is the key to ending that in the next few weeks. I urge the Government to give full trend. Krugman and Leyard conclude in their powerful regard and consideration to its five objectives and 25 goals, piece: which I will not go through because of the shortage of “Companies will only invest when they can foresee enough time. customers with enough income to spend. Austerity discourages In conclusion, the Government have made a good investment.” start, but a lot of work is still required to realise the full potential of the green economy, and there are many Kelvin Hopkins: I support everything that my hon. challenges that remain to be met. There is a need for Friend is saying, but is he aware that in a survey recently more co-ordination across government, closer working reported by the CBI, 94% of employers wanted, above with both business and local government, and a clear all, markets so that they could sell their goods? They and simple regulatory framework to promote green were not concerned about regulation and all the other investment. The UK remains an attractive place to things that the Tories talk about. invest, but we must do all we can to ensure that that reputation is not lost, but enhanced. I support the motion, and look forward to hearing the Minister’s Mr Bain: For many months, my hon. Friend has response. identified the real problem—a jobs and demand crisis, which is what fiscal policy and investment in the green sector must address. 3.3 pm Lack of confidence means that private sector surpluses Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): I amounted to £99 billion last year, and £700 billion of congratulate the hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura private-sector assets are not in productive use in the Sandys) on securing this timely and important debate, economy. In the first three months of this year, global and the Backbench Business Committee on granting it. green investment fell to the lowest level for three years, The OECD has estimated that this year in the UK according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance. It is total economic demand will be only a tenth of that in clear that Governments have to act quickly if they are Japan or the United States. The fiscal stance adopted by not to find themselves in a classic example of what the Chancellor towards the economy as a whole, and Keynes called the paradox of thrift, in which the pressure particularly towards the green sector, is disappointing, to save overwhelms the need to invest and grow. given that our green economy accounts for 7% of gross Although they are somewhat more reticent in their domestic product and is the sixth largest in the world. It self-promotion, it is worth remembering that this is the sustains 900,000 jobs and is growing at a rate of 4.7% a Government who asserted that they were “the greenest year, whereas, as the Office for National Statistics established Government ever”. Regrettably, this year’s Budget did this morning, the economy as a whole has shrunk by little to redress the lack of green investment. The principal 0.2% since the comprehensive spending review in autumn failure was the failure to improve the capital and borrowing 2010, although the Office for Budget Responsibility had powers of the green investment bank. As a concept, the predicted that in the six quarters following June 2010’s bank is quite unique. It draws support from the CBI emergency Budget, the economy would grow at 3.7%. It and the New Economics Foundation. Before the Budget, seems that the green economy is one of few areas in James Meadway, senior economist at the New Economics which there is any growth at all. Foundation, called on the Chancellor to bolster proposals China and South Korea are investing hugely in the for the green investment bank with higher capitalisation low-carbon sector, which, it is estimated, will be worth and earlier borrowing powers. $2.2 trillion by 2020. China’s share of the low-carbon Ernst and Youngestimates that £4 billion to £6 billion economy is set to rise to 24% by that year. The Chancellor’s of public capital is necessary over the course of this lack of foresight risks leaving the UK in the economic Parliament for the bank to be effective in tackling the slow lane. It is extraordinary that it is not only the investment barriers in offshore wind, carbon capture Governor of the Bank of England who now writes and storage, and associated infrastructure. Lord Stern, letters to the Chancellor about the state of the economy a leading climate change economist, notes that that is but, we have learned, the Secretary of State for not state aid or subsidy, as the institution is needed Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Secretary of because of market failures in finance, particularly those State for Energy and Climate Change and, perhaps associated with risk and policy risk. However, the green most surprisingly, the Foreign Secretary. Perhaps there investment bank will not have borrowing powers until is only 24 hours to save the green economy, based on April 2017, which casts huge doubt on its ability to raise their concern that Government policy is simply not the £200 billion estimated to be necessary to meet the going far enough to generate growth in an innovative UK’s CO2 reduction targets by 2020. While immediate sector that, after the financial crash of 2008, provides borrowing powers are essential, so is timing. As the an opportunity to rebalance a growth model that many Environmental Audit Committee reported in March people believe has failed. last year, investors may put off investment while there is This morning, Paul Krugman and Richard Leyard uncertainty about how the bank will operate. A bank set out in the Financial Times how we have become that is slow in building its balance sheet may not meet mired in the slowest climb out of a slump since the our emissions and renewable energy targets by 2020. 511 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 512

[Mr Bain] partnership, as has already been mentioned, are doing their bit to try and make sure that that vision becomes a The London School of Economics recently issued a reality. That was further enhanced when an enterprise report showing the link between the effects of the zone was granted in a neighbour’s constituency and has current crisis of demand and the flailing prospects of been designated one of the centres for offshore renewable the green economy in the UK. In its recent report on engineering. green investment and innovation, the LSE argues: I am delighted to say that the Suffolk-Norfolk rivalries “Investment has slumped mainly because households, businesses, are not quite as strong as they once were: we now reach and banks are nervous about future demand and have responded across the border and our county councils, our LEP by forgoing more risky investment in physical capital.” and, I understand, Essex county council work together That is the crisis that must be addressed now. The LSE to make sure that we have an energy skills strategy that also points out that the Government reaches right across our area. That was evidenced by the “can still steer spending and investment through a mix of policies decision to allow Norfolk university technical college to including pricing, regulation and institutional reform” be based in Norwich, the city represented by my hon. that need not cost more money now. Friend the Economic Secretary.That is a great opportunity Consensus on this issue comes from a surprising and I am delighted to say that Suffolk and Norfolk are source—the Foreign Secretary, who said in his letter of getting a grip on it. 19 March to the Chancellor that With regard to the fiscal and regulatory framework, I “we could get more mileage from this without additional commitment was not surprised by the speech made by my right hon. of expenditure or fiscal risk.” Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), Uncertain economic times need not mean an uncertain because I know that he holds strong views on these approach to the transition to a green economy. matters. I understand perfectly why he feels that energy Sir David King, as the hon. Member for Brighton, costs are unnecessarily high: he blames the subsidy and Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) discussed in her speech, has thinks it is a problem for other industries. I take a very argued that the quantitative easing programme could different view: that if we are to encourage self-reliance also be aimed at the green economy. In an article in energy, we have to invest in our energy infrastructure. published in The Guardian this Tuesday, he wrote: It is not about subsidy; it is about an incentive to attract investors from around the world, and nowhere more so “This laissez-faire attitude that is gospel at the Treasury is not the right one at the moment. We do not have time to play about than at Sizewell C. I have seen the strong commitment with this—we need to move quickly to get out of the financial of EDF and British Gas to continuing their planning crisis and the resource crisis”, application work not only at Hinkley Point, but at and he suggests that preference could be given to projects Sizewell C. Frankly, all the talk about subsidy is nonsense. that promote environmentally responsible and sustainable It is an incentive to have green energy infrastructure on development, modernising infrastructure and marking which we can all rely. a shift away from the present high-carbon, resource-intensive I hope that we in Suffolk Coastal will be vying with economy. my hon. Friend and neighbour across the river with the In opposition, the Chancellor highlighted the need to coming online of the Greater Gabbard, Galloper, and East Anglia wind farms and so on, as many of those “bring to an end the stale argument that we have to choose between economic growth and the environment.” come onshore in my constituency. That does not mean pylons in my constituency, although sadly it does in one In government he has so far, sadly, forsaken both, but nearby. We are seeing for ourselves the future of green this is the season for Treasury U-turns. The motion and energy, and we are proud to be part of it. this debate give him the opportunity to get serious and to generate real green growth and green jobs, so let us I say to the Minister—she has heard me talk about have the largest U-turn yet—a fully capitalised and this before—that it would be lovely if the contribution properly borrowing Green investment bank and proper those communities are making to green growth was levels of investment in the green economy. reflected in the allocations from the coastal communities fund. They deserve the lion’s share of that money. Frankly, I feel that we should get our share of the 3.12 pm revenue that the Crown Estate secures from offshore Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I congratulate wind farms and other such activities. [Interruption.] I my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Sandys) who crafted such a genius motion, covering so South Thanet seemed to say, “Hear, hear” to that. many strands and industries and laying open the field On other routes to market, I think it is telling that for us to speak on a number of topics. I have been one aspect of green growth is trying to reduce the beaten by my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney amount of energy we need for anything. I am delighted (Peter Aldous), however, who has already given a full that the Government have put in place the money for and comprehensive speech on the merits of Suffolk, rural broadband roll-out. I hope that the director general supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Central for competition in the European Commission does not Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter). put a spanner in the works by trying to prevent that I said in my maiden speech that I hoped our coast, money—our money—being used to ensure that we get the Suffolk coastal area combined with the coast around broadband throughout the country. The other investment Lowestoft in the constituency of my hon. Friend the that my right hon. Friends in the Government are Member for Waveney and round into Yarmouth, would making, of course, is the investment in rail. I am sure be known as the green coast, and I am delighted to say that the Minister will not mind if I plug the future that our county councils, working with the local enterprise launch, which we hope will be very soon, of our prospectus 513 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 514 for increased investment in rail, because we believe that Developing renewable energy is more than an it will generate a huge economic return for our region environmental solution to help slow climate change, and the country. however; it is about bringing jobs and investment and I will mention briefly the contribution from my hon. revitalising, rejuvenating and regenerating my constituency Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams). and other areas that have been hard hit by unemployment I have a lot of sympathy with his dedication to biomass. and by business closures. We have an anaerobic digestion plant at Adnams near Existing jobs in my constituency are heavily dependent Southwold and more are planned, but there is concern on energy-intensive industry, including petrochemicals in East Anglia that biomass plants will be powered by refining and steel production, but there is a limit to their straw that is sourced locally, because that would increase ability to subsidise the development of the renewables the price of straw for farmers elsewhere. With increasing sector, and the Government must be mindful of that. welfare standards, which we all welcome, agricultural Part of the political process does, of course, involve production will require more straw, which will start to balancing competing arguments. become a scarce commodity. I have raised the issue with hon. Friends elsewhere—indeed, I am meeting the Minister To return to future jobs, however, the Government to discuss the point—because we need to bear in mind have recognised the area’s potential by establishing an the risk of distorting practices elsewhere through incentives enterprise zone, the very name of which—the Humber on one side. renewable energy super cluster enterprise zone—does not roll off the tongue but is an acknowledgment of the Finally, I will turn to the planning debate. There is no Government’s support for the growth of the sector in question but that I prefer offshore turbines to onshore the area. ones, even though they are more expensive—the cost is coming down, as has been mentioned—especially as The zone includes the south Humber energy park, half my constituency is in an area of outstanding being developed by Able UK, which will not only, we natural beauty. A very unpopular planning application hope, attract a major international company, but provide was granted only the other day in Levington, which is in a massive opportunity for smaller and medium-sized an AONB, and I was rather shocked and surprised that businesses to become involved in the supply chain. the four councillors outvoted three and the one who The establishment of the energy park project is going abstained. It was a great shame, because one of the as well as can be expected, but the long drawn-out things we need to do is get our communities behind process has highlighted the need for greater clarity and the energy revolution and to share in it. Elsewhere in the speed on the part of the various Government agencies constituency, communities have come together in wanting involved. I welcome the recent announcements indicating a turbine, so that they can use the proceeds from it. We the Government’s determination to tackle those issues, need to develop an element of consensus on wind and I urge them to ensure that the announcements are farms, because once they are in place, as my hon. Friend followed through and delivered speedily. If investors are the Member for Waveney will know with the Kessingland to make sound judgments that favour the UK, we need turbines, there are still issues for residents that need to to avoid delay and to speed up the development of be solved. infrastructure and jobs in areas such as my constituency, I shall use part of my contribution to this debate to which so desperately needs them. call on my local district councils and indeed councils throughout the country to take advantage of the recent Potential investors have drawn my attention to several Department for Communities and Local Government other factors, including the need for greater clarity on guidance on including a supplementary planning document how the Treasury will value and ration contracts for specifically on renewable energy. Instead of councillors difference—CFDs—for levy-control purposes, given that being beset by every single application and the Planning the amounts paid out under them will vary according to Inspectorate overturning decisions, I would like to see the wholesale price for power. local councils develop their activities in a planned and On CFDs, there are questions also about budgeting. structured way and be part of the process of making From 2014 to 2017, there will be a choice between sure that the future is as green as the luscious fields that renewable obligations certificates and CFDs, but the we have enjoyed since all this rain fell. available budget will have to cover both, so I stress The future is green. One of our party’s slogans was again that clarity is needed on how this highly uncertain “Vote Blue, Go Green” and I would like to think that situation will be managed. under this coalition Government, we are doing more The industry is asking questions because it wants to than ever to promote the green economy. see the expansion not purely of one sector, but of many, as indeed we all do. The knock-on effects of the green 3.20 pm economy will be felt for generations, and I for one want to support the best opportunities that we can give Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I, too, congratulate them—but not necessarily at the expense of the current my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura generation of jobseekers. That is what the green economy Sandys) on securing this debate. is really about, so saving the beauty of Britain and Energy policy and, in particular, the fiscal and regulatory saving jobs for the British people must be our aim. This framework that governs it is critical to my constituency. is an economic eco-system in which what happens in The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana one area affects all the others. One aspect of that Johnson) outlined the advantages of the Humber estuary eco-system that the Government have got right is the in terms of location and the development of the renewable interaction of stakeholders with local authorities, which sector, and its geographical situation is absolutely ideal has produced great successes in Humberside involving for servicing offshore developments. the recently established local enterprise partnership. 515 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 516

[Martin Vickers] and on the world’s economy, including this country’s economy, if we fail properly to get on top of the Recently I got together with my hon. Friends the problem. Members for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and for East I am glad that that is now seen as the relatively Hampshire (Damian Hinds), and Green Alliance, to unarguable fact of the matter. Although there are some produce a pamphlet highlighting the importance of who advance the case—I will not say that it is a respectable local leadership in the dash for green growth. The hon. case, but I respect the fact that they argue it—of the Member for Kingston upon Hull North mentioned climate change deniers, who are the modern equivalent names that were familiar to me from the north bank of the flat earth society, on a relatively un-peer reviewed Humberside area. I add my support and congratulations and un-scientific basis, it is good that this Government, to political and business leaders in northern Lincolnshire, the previous Government and Members of this House who have played a significant part in this. There has generally take a reasonable approach to the challenges been cross-party, cross-river support for the various that we face. initiatives. As in the case of the Suffolk-Norfolk situation The global market in low-carbon goods and services mentioned a few minutes ago, it is relatively unusual in is currently worth £3.2 trillion and may be worth as Humberside to get support from both banks of the much as £4 trillion by 2015. It employs 28 million river, but thankfully, colleagues from both sides have people worldwide and, unlike many sectors, is growing come together. The local aspect of this could unlock at a rate of 4%, which is faster than the world’s GDP. business and industry from over-taxing, centralised policies. The nub of the debate is that we can either ignore that We urgently need to cut red tape and speed up the growing global market in low-carbon goods and services process. and say that Britain wants no part of it, or say that we Localism is powerful, and these opportunities are want not only to be part of it, but to be at the cutting being ambitiously pursued with a focus on green business edge. Britain should provide the necessary economic and investment. Investors are perceiving more risk than certainty for the players in that market to develop opportunity, and we need to ask why that is so. Perhaps low-carbon technology in this country. We must give there are too many complexities in the current set-up. the right signals and encouragement to those industries. Complexity equals risk, risk equals costs, and costs The underbelly of such certainty in Britain can provide equal a lack of investment. We need to reduce the the basis on which companies can test and develop administrative quagmires and uncertainties and introduce those industries, and then become world leaders and a more locally based initiative that could speed up the develop an export market for the UK. process. The potential for job growth from the green Fundamentally, that is what I believe lies behind what economy is considerable, and I hope that we can move the Government are doing, and theirs is the right approach. forward much more quickly to achieve that. I urge the They are putting the investment in and trying to read Government to do more to end the uncertainty that the the messages in the market itself. I know that the industry faces. Government have had some difficulty with solar The other day, I attended an informative reception on photovoltaics, but the fact is that the cost of solar PV biofuels—a huge growth area that has one plant coming reduced by more than 50% in one year. It is difficult for online, but only one. We need to expand that sector as any Government to have a system that can respond quickly as possible. effectively to that and not create distortions in the market. We need to have the right incentives to encourage Ministers have worked hard to simplify the process these industries, but the incentives must work in a by which the industry can develop. Despite the recent manner that creates certainty for the long term. Despite withdrawal of Vestas from its Sheerness project, there the difficulty that was experienced last year, I am pleased remains great potential to grow the industry, to the that there is now a great deal more certainty and a enormous benefit of my constituency and the country formula in the feed-in tariffs system that will take the as a whole. I readily support the motion. solar PV industry forward to a point where ultimately, in only a few years time, it will not need any fiscal stimulus to continue succeeding and to be one of the 3.27 pm most significant players in our economy. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak in this important debate. I Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): Worcester Bosch, warmly congratulate the hon. Member for South Thanet a manufacturer of solar thermal energy, is based in my (Laura Sandys) on driving the initiative for the debate constituency. One of its concerns is that the enormous and on making a telling and significant opening speech subsidies for solar PV under the unreformed feed-in in which she set it on the right course. tariffs system discouraged people from investing in solar thermal. Does my hon. Friend agree that having a more So far, speakers have not much reflected on why it is sensible and sustainable system will encourage the necessary for us to pursue a low-carbon future—apart, development of all technologies? that is, from the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), who is no longer in his place—and Andrew George: My hon. Friend makes the point have accepted that policy as a given. As a responsible very well. We must get the balance of the fiscal incentives and significant country that wishes to lead the way right. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test internationally—for example, at the recent Rio+20 summit (Dr Whitehead) made the point to the right hon. Member —we should be setting the standards in responding to for Hitchin and Harpenden that the European rules do the challenges facing the globe. The recent Stern report not rule out establishing incentives to develop and then set out the significant impact that rapid climate change roll out new technologies to promote the low-carbon will have on people and their lifestyles around the globe, economy. 517 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 518

West Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly in my constituency the UK becoming a world leader in the prototype have for many years been at the cutting edge of many development of wave and tidal technology, as hon. renewable technologies. We had the first wind farms at Members have said. Clean coal and coal-fired power Delabole and Cold Northcott in the late ’80s. The stations can sometimes be controversial, but the previous geothermal project at Rosemanowes, near Penryn, has Government proposed that no new coal-fired power spawned a number of developments involving ground stations would be built without carbon capture and source heat pumps and deep geothermal, which I believe storage to cut emissions drastically. will be a significant driver of low-carbon technologies When I spoke of the debate being generally consensual, into the future. I am also pleased that the Government I should have mentioned the slightly discordant note are investing in geothermal energy. More of Cornwall’s struck by the right hon. Member for Hitchin and landscape is taken over with large solar PV than other Harpenden (Mr Lilley). I use the word “discordant” not parts of the country—Cornwall is famed for its sun, to be critical. In characteristic style, he made his point and it rarely rains. We want to harness that technology. and put the other side of the argument. It is important The first place in the UK to roll out commercial-scale that such views are heard. When Labour left office, wave technology is also in my area. That required investment in alternative energy and clean technology significant Government investment—from the previous had reached £7 billion, and we were generally thought Government and the current one. We are at the critical to be moving things in the right direction compared to point of ensuring that we plug companies into the other economies in the world. Even amid the worst system and that it works. global economic slow-down since the 1930s, the low-carbon With all those sectors, Cornwall wishes to be seen as economy in the UK still grew by 4.5% in 2008-09 and by the green peninsula—the cutting edge or blueprint from 4.3% in 2009-10. which others can learn. The Eden project is an exemplar Several contributions this afternoon have referred to of rolling out such projects. It is not just the technologies the Chancellor and the Prime Minister’s position when that hope for opportunities, but companies. For example, in opposition. Indeed, prior to the 2010 election, both Fugro Seacore, an offshore drilling company—I must promised to continue the work under way and to prioritise declare an interest: my son works there—is helping to the transition to a low-carbon economy. We have heard put in the footings for offshore wind. Such companies several quotes this afternoon, but let me recap the hope to have improved opportunities as a result of the Chancellor’s position in 2009, when he said: fiscal measures that the Government are putting in place to promote low-carbon technology. I hope all “We need to recognise the fierce urgency of now. We need to hon. Members support this important motion. see the whole of the government pulling in the same direction to cut emissions and green our economy… Climate change cannot solely be the concern of the climate change Minister.” 3.36 pm That is an important message—and might be one of the Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- few occasions I have agreed with the Chancellor. He op): I thank the Backbench Business Committee for also said: bringing this important matter to the House, and the “I want a Conservative Treasury to be in the lead of developing hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) for her the low-carbon economy and financing a green recovery”. opening speech. Other hon. Members have mentioned the drive she showed to ensure that we had the opportunity He then gave the following commitment: to discuss this matter. “If I become Chancellor, the Treasury will become a green ally, We heard 14 subsequent speeches, covering a range of not a foe.” subjects—I shall mention some of them in my remarks. Some of today’s questions have focused on how the I welcome the Economic Secretary, who is here to listen. Government plan to deliver on their promise to be A succession of Ministers has been present during the the greenest Government ever and to build on the work debate, which is important in the context of joined-up already done. government. I hope she finds the debate slightly less of a hot seat than she was subjected to previously. It is good that hon. Members have tried to shed more light Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I have just come than heat. from the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Public Bill I am proud that one of the Labour Government’s Committee, where we discussed the green investment legacies was the broad acceptance of the need to tackle bank, which is an important part of the Government’s climate change. They worked tirelessly to attract low-carbon strategy. Does she agree that it will be a powerful driver investment and to strengthen the UK’s green economy. for improving our environment as part of the green The Climate Change Act 2008 was a world first—it economy? binds the UK Government by law to reduce carbon emissions by a third by 2020 and by 80% by 2015. My Cathy Jamieson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that hon. Friends the Members for Southampton, Test information, and I am glad that the Committee is (Dr Whitehead), my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston discussing the green investment bank. It has generally upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) and others were part been welcomed this afternoon, although there is concern of that process. We owe them a debt of gratitude for about whether it can deliver on its objectives and whether their work at that time, because it helped us to reduce the Government are taking the right action to secure the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions by more than 20%—to investment. Hon. Members have mentioned borrowing below 1990 levels—and to beat our Kyoto target. powers and other things that I will develop later, if I The Labour Government doubled renewable energy have time. However, although the green investment generation. We tried to establish Britain as a world bank is important, it must have the right powers to leader in offshore wind capacity, and moved towards succeed. 519 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 520

[Cathy Jamieson] first ever green investment bank. It could, of course, leverage private investment and help drive economic I have another concern that was reflected in contributions growth, but the danger is that it risks falling into limbo. this afternoon. Are we really on the path to making this The Government now seem set to borrow £150 billion the greenest Government ever, or is the coalition, as has more than they planned to do a year ago, which poses been suggested, issues, and the date by which we will have a proper “on a path to becoming the most environmentally destructive functioning green investment bank with full borrowing government to hold power in this country since the modern powers has slipped back to 2016 at the earliest. Perhaps environmental movement was born”? the Minister will provide some reassurance on that. The Those are not my words—I mention them because it is Government’s claim that the green investment bank is important to consider different sides of the argument—but part of a strategy for growth and is to be centre stage the words of leading environmentalists, including will look pretty thin if it is not able to deliver any real Greenpeace and the Royal Society for the Protection of investment in a meaningful time scale. Birds writing at the end of last year. I have a couple of further points before I allow the It is almost as if the Government, despite their earlier Minister to sum up. The green deal has been referred to promises, no longer consider the transition to a low-carbon by several hon. Members this afternoon. That is important, economy as their top priority. In the autumn statement, but concerns have been raised about the fact that, the Chancellor said that if we burden British businesses despite the original claim that up to 100,000 jobs would “with endless social and environmental goals, however worthy in be created in the insulation sector by 2015 and that their own right, not only will we not achieve those goals, but the businesses will fail, jobs will be lost, and our country will be 14 million homes would be reached by 2020 and 26 million poorer.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 807.] by 2030, the consultation on the green deal, which was As hon. Members have argued powerfully, that is a published in November 2011, came with some downgraded particularly short-sighted way of looking at the world job forecasts, less funding for fuel-poor households, as and completely ignores the opportunities to create an we have heard, and no detail about the interest rates on active industrial strategy within which the green economy which the green deal will rely. can grow. Some Government Members have raised concerns—quite As other Members have argued, we have choice: we gently, I think—about what I and others described at can either embrace and lead a new energy industrial the time as “shambolic” attacks on the feed-in tariffs for revolution, or we can be left behind. We know that we solar power. That risked thousands of jobs and left the are in difficult economic times, but all the measures we public with legal bills running into tens of thousands of want to take on growing the economy will also help pounds. green growth, which is why Labour’s five-point plan sets out the immediate actions that we believe the Government Let me add my concern to those already raised about should take to boost growth and create jobs, which the plan by Vestas for the manufacture of wind turbines. would also help to strengthen the green economy. Even It was originally hoped that it would create some 2,000 jobs, businesses have rejected the argument that the transition but it has been abandoned. The hon. Member for South to a low-carbon economy is a burden; they believe it Thanet (Laura Sandys), a member of the Energy and provides the UK with a huge opportunity for growth. Climate Change Committee, was quoted as saying at The deputy director general of the CBI was very clear: the time that Vestas’ decision would have been “Environmental regulation doesn’t have to be a burden for “a commercial one but it also suggests a lack of confidence within business. Framed correctly, environmental goals can help our the industry over the government’s commitment to the green economic goals—help start new companies and generate new economy and crucially to offshore wind.” jobs and enrich us all.” We have heard the Foreign Secretary’s views quoted a As I understand it, she went on to say, as other Members number of times this afternoon. I suspect that he would have said this afternoon, that the market needs certainty be surprised to feature so often in a debate on the green from the Government. That has been a running theme economy. I shall not repeat quotes already referred to, throughout our debate: in order to develop, create and other than to say that there are some powerful messages ensure that new technology is made accessible and in them, as there are in the report published last month affordable as part of the delivery from tackling climate by the Environmental Audit Committee, which warned change and growing the economy, the market needs that green investment should play a key role in the UK’s certainty and long-term planning. I strongly argue that economic recovery. We have also heard figures suggesting it is necessary for the Government—across all Departments, that the global market for environmental goods and including the Treasury—to stand up and take those services stands at around £3.2 trillion today, but will responsibilities seriously. potentially be worth as much as £4 trillion by 2015. The Let me end my speech by telling the House what figures on investment in clean energy have also been Labour believes we need to do. Some of it has already mentioned. been set out by the shadow Secretary of State for The green economy is growing worldwide, but the Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the real danger is that if this Government do not continue Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint). She identified the work started under the previous Government and five key elements in an active industrial strategy. First, do not see that climate change is important or that the we need to unlock private investment by delivering on green economy is a part of growing the wider economy, electricity market reform and ensuring that the Government we risk being left behind. act decisively. Secondly, we need to improve public Let me return briefly to the green investment bank. procurement to support the green economy. We have The Chancellor was very quick in the autumn statement heard about housing-related issues, and I think that we to take credit for it as the Chancellor who funded the could do more in that regard. 521 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 522

Thirdly, we need a strategy for skills for a low-carbon Many Members mentioned the Environmental Audit economy. Over the past weeks, I have been meeting Committee’s report on the green economy, which was representatives of the automotive industry and the biofuels published in May. I had the pleasure of giving evidence and combined heat and power sectors. All of them have to the Committee during its inquiry. I commend its said that there are possibilities for job creation, but that Chair, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan it will require investment, research and development Walley), for her work and for the speech she made this and the right skills set, and that young people should be afternoon. Like my ministerial colleagues, some of whom encouraged to take up those job opportunities. were able to join us today, I read the report with Fourthly, we need to rebalance the economy, support interest. The Government are preparing a response, and growth in the regions and encourage manufacturing, will release it shortly. and, as I have said, supporting green technologies will As I said a moment ago, some of my ministerial be a vital part of that. Further growth will require colleagues were able to join us for a debate that, ultimately, policy certainty and stability for investors, producers dealt with much wider issues than the fiscal aspects of and users. Although talks are in progress in some of the green economy. It should be noted that, in many those sectors, I find it worrying—as, I am sure, do other areas, the UK is leading the way globally. The Under- Members—that the Government’s long-term commitment Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural to combined heat and power and biodiesel, for instance, Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard has not yet been made explicit. The industry must be Benyon)—who was present in the Chamber until persuaded that investment in those processes is worth recently—is off to Panama this weekend to represent its time, effort and money. the UK. The work that he and others have been doing The final element in an active industrial strategy is demonstrates that the UK takes the protection of our something that we did not have the opportunity to natural environment and the development of the green discuss in great detail this afternoon, although a number economy very seriously indeed. of Members referred to it. We need to engage with the I pay tribute to Members for their contributions to public and communities. Such engagement cannot be this debate, including the hon. Members for Southampton, seen as a mere add-on, or something that we should do Test (Dr Whitehead), for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline after everything else has been done. That goes for Lucas), for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and for economic growth, but it also goes for our own behaviour. Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), and my Household energy consumption is responsible for nearly hon. Friends the Members for Sittingbourne and Sheppey a third of total carbon emissions. Of course we could (Gordon Henderson), for Romsey and Southampton do more in that respect, but we must also ensure that North (Caroline Nokes), for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel our communities are actively involved. Members have Adams), for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), for St Ives given some good examples today of how that can be (Andrew George) and for Waveney (Peter Aldous). I done—for instance, through co-operative energy ventures hope to be able to address their points, and those of or through communities’buying, establishing and benefiting other speakers, later in my remarks. Sadly, my right from their own turbines. hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden Today’s debate has given us an opportunity to explore (Mr Lilley) has had to leave the Chamber, but I suspect ideas, to raise the concerns of industry—which have even he would agree that this Government are focused been mentioned throughout the debate—and to consider on reducing the deficit, keeping our country safe in the creatively how we can bring about the right economic global storm, and doing everything possible to help conditions for sustainable growth and how the green people in Britain deal with the rising cost of living. economy itself can contribute to jobs and the wider We must consider the effects our comments this afternoon economy. What we now want to hear from the Minister will have on households and businesses. The hon. Member are practical ideas for fulfilling the commitments that for Brighton, Pavilion mentioned interest rates, and I the industry wants from the Government. assure her that our actions more broadly throughout the economy have helped keep them low for households 3.52 pm and businesses. My hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North talked about simple household The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe measures that can help, and she and I share the same Smith): This has been an extremely interesting debate principles in this regard. on the important issue of how to achieve a green The Government have made it absolutely clear that economy in the United Kingdom. I am delighted to be we want a growing economy. That cuts to the heart of back at the Dispatch Box discussing a subject of great the issues we have been debating this afternoon. I make importance in a civilised and reasonable way. Indeed, I no apology to those that have heard me—and other shall be happy to take interventions, having already had members of the Government—say this before, as it such extensive experience of that practice during the bears repeating: green growth and a green economy are week. not separate from the economy at large. On the contrary, Let me echo the tributes that have been paid to my they are closely intertwined, as my right hon. Friend the hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Deputy Prime Minister made clear in his statement on Sandys). She did a fantastic job in setting out the terms the outcomes of the Rio+20 summit earlier this week. of the debate. She spoke of jobs and opportunities, she Our entire economy needs to be environmentally sustainable, spoke of transparency and evidence, she spoke of the enabling us to maximise growth while, importantly, long term, and she spoke of a role for the UK in being managing our natural assets sustainably. That is plain proudly and successfully resilient, innovative and productive. common sense; it is about the efficient use of assets in I think we can all identify with the sentiment and the the interests of the nation. It is both economically and passion with which she dealt with those issues. environmentally the right thing to do. 523 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 524

[Miss Chloe Smith] Dr Whitehead: I am taking up the Minister’s invitation to intervene. Will she consider, even at this late hour, We all know that that is the case from our experiences telling us about electricity market reform and how it in our constituencies—I certainly do. I must pay tribute affects the Treasury at the next meeting of the Select to my hon. Friends representing Suffolk constituencies Committee on Energy and Climate Change, which I who have spoken today about the thriving low-carbon hope will be held next week? May I assure her that if she sector in their seats—and mine—in East Anglia. As does take up our invitation, she will receive a warm well as all the other sectors mentioned this afternoon, I welcome and some very straightforward and supportive might refer to the beer industry—which is a presence in questions during that discussion? the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey)—as all of us might almost Miss Smith: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his prefer to be enjoying its products on this warm afternoon good-natured reiteration of an offer to appear before than to be here in the Chamber. the Committee. I have not appeared before it because it is scrutinising the draft legislation of another Department. The Government are using the broad range of tools I believe that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of at our disposal to help support the transition to a green State for Energy and Climate Change, who was also economy. Those tools include regulation, financial here this afternoon, explained to the Committee this incentives, voluntary commitments, public sector week that he, of course, is representing the Government’s procurement and fiscal measures. As the motion highlights, collective position. Although I welcome the hon. we need to have the right regulatory and fiscal framework Gentleman’s faith in me, I regret that I do not feel that I to achieve that, and we are putting such a framework in could usefully add more than that which the Secretary place. of State has already provided to the Committee. May I From the outset, the coalition Government have also point out that electricity market reform, as my committed to being the greenest ever and to increasing right hon. Friend will have set out, is an early and the proportion of revenue from environmental taxes. credible signal to investors that the Government are Some have said that Budget 2012 was not green enough. serious about encouraging investment in low-carbon I disagree. We need to be realistic and acknowledge electricity generation now? that not every Budget can be full of new green measures I shall now deal with some of the points made in this and proposals. After all, these are projects for the long debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne term, as has been acknowledged in our debate. I might and Sheppey exhorted the Government to be clearer on cite the examples of helping to protect households in wind energy. I say to him that the Government have the long term through taking action on energy bills, been conducting a thorough review of the support creating investment, supporting new infrastructure—I provided by the renewables obligation and the Department welcome the comments on that by my hon. Friend the of Energy and Climate Change will publish the results Member for Waveney—and putting in place a stable of it shortly. I know that he and others will take a deep fiscal and regulatory regime. Budget 2012 demonstrated interest in that. the Government’s commitment to continuing with their Let me discuss other ways in which the Government plan to meet their environmental commitments while have set out action, for example, in the area of accounting reducing unnecessary administrative burdens. Let us for our natural capital. The natural capital committee also be clear that, as well as incentivising behavioural will help the Government to prioritise actions to support change, the environment-related tax decisions in the and improve the UK’s natural assets. I reassure the hon. Budget make an important contribution to reducing the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North that sustainability is record deficit left to us by the previous Government. considered when developing policy.Her Majesty’s Treasury’s Green Book already does that in guidance, clearly setting I shall now discuss how we can bring forward green out how Departments can take into account natural growth and incentivise it. As I have said, our priority is capital and long-term sustainability issues. to achieve strong, sustainable and balanced growth that is evenly shared across the country and between industries. May I further reassure the hon. Members for May I set out a couple of areas of policy on which the Southampton, Test and for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) Treasury and others are collectively leading that we on the green investment bank? The important point is think are in a position to help with green growth? The that the GIB pathfinder—UK Green Investments—is first of those is the carbon price floor. At Budget 2012, now open for business, with more than 20 individual the Chancellor set the carbon price support rates for projects under active consideration, including in renewable 2014-15 to meet the carbon price floor as it was set out energy, waste management and energy-efficiency. All at Budget 2011. This is a first-of-a-kind tax, and it will those are large markets with enormous growth potential. provide greater long-term certainty to the carbon price. Calls have been made this afternoon for it to move It will give a secure future for billions of pounds of forward more quickly and be able to borrow. I wish to investment in low-carbon energy, which I am sure all reassure the House that it has been given £3 billion in its hon. Members will welcome. initial capitalisation and has the potential to borrow from April 2015 when debt is falling as a percentage of Support is also being provided to key industries—our GDP—that is a crucial point. energy-intensive industries—to ensure that they can Across the economy, we are focusing on creating the adapt over time. Electricity market reform has recently conditions for private sector investment and growth, been proposed in the draft legislation currently undergoing including through innovation. As Members would expect, pre-legislative scrutiny, and that programme talks of that includes supporting private sector investment and needing more than £100 billion of investment to 2020 in focusing on sustainability. I could point out fiscal steps electricity generation and networks. that are in line with the motion, including a new above 525 Green Economy28 JUNE 2012 Green Economy 526 the line credit to support research and development speeches from hon. Friends and hon. Members. I fully activity in the UK and increases to the rate of enhanced agree with those who have said growth and greenness deductions of SME research and development tax credit. are not mutually exclusive. We can have both. This Together with the green investment bank, those measures Government want an economy that is growing, balanced will play a crucial role in encouraging innovation in the and sustainable, which is good for businesses and for green technology sector, which will have benefits for households. The actions that this Government are taking the wider economy, jobs and growth. Together with the will help us get there and I thank the Backbench Business green deal, the measures will help householders both Committee and the House for raising the issue. directly and indirectly. I can reassure the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion that her calls for a whole-house 4.7 pm approach in retrofitting are in line with what the green Laura Sandys: I want to thank everybody who has deal and the ECO aim to achieve. Those schemes also participated in the debate. It has been very wide ranging, target funding at low-income households, which is very as the Minister said, and I thank her in particular for important for the battle against fuel poverty. her attention as she sat through the debate and heard all Regulation can play an important role in setting the different constituency and thematic issues that were common standards and expectations. The Government expressed. I want to question only one thing that she recently announced that we will introduce mandatory said, as I do not think that anybody would presume that reporting of greenhouse gases for all companies quoted it is a question of either green growth or industrial on the London stock exchange. Again, that goes back growth and GDP. In my view, they are one and the to the theme of transparency. In this current economic same. Unless we think about the domestic production climate, it is crucial to make it simpler for businesses of energy to hedge off the international volatility of and industry to meet their environmental responsibilities. energy production, we will find domestic growth extremely We will continue to review and amend existing fiscal difficult. Household bills will increase and businesses instruments and regulatory instruments to ensure they will start to be challenged. remain focused on achieving both economic and We have covered every part of the green economy in environmental objectives. An example of that is the the debate, and it is a part of the economy that is review of the carbon reduction commitment scheme. growing. In my constituency, the potential investment Budget 2012 announced a consultation on proposals to of £1 billion is about to be decided in boardrooms not reduce administrative burdens in that scheme and the just in the UK but around Europe. They are looking for Government are considering the responses to the investor confidence and I hope that this debate has consultation, which has just closed. contributed to that. I know that the Minister’s contribution Let me return to the importance of this afternoon’s has underpinned what this country requires to build on debate. It has been interesting and has demonstrated that growth: investor confidence, clear policies and a the importance of appropriate Government action across commitment to a green economy for the future. We a breadth of sectors and using various tools. That need to take measures to deliver for UK jobs and our action must encourage and drive forwards an wider economy. environmentally sustainable and growing economy. It Question put and agreed to. must pay attention to skills, and I was interested to hear Resolved, the calls for attention to be paid to the high level of That this House urges the Government to promote the right skills we can achieve in the British economy in a fully fiscal and regulatory framework to accelerate green growth as an competitive sense. Once again, I welcome the passionate intrinsic part of the UK’s economic recovery strategy. 527 28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 528

Minister for Older People There is huge and diverse range of older people. We now have the first generation of older people living with 4.9 pm HIV, who worry whether they will find a care home with staff and residents who understand their needs. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I beg to Evidently, older people are a diverse bunch with needs move, and problems that fall within the remit of many That this House notes the concerns of the Grey Pride campaign; Departments—just like everyone else then—but too and calls on the Government to consider appointing a member of often policy is focused on the needs of the stereotypical the Cabinet to be the Minister for Older People, to give a political old person. Too often, policy is made with the fit, the voice to the older generation, to oversee the co-ordination of able-bodied, the internet-savvy and the average user in services which affect older people, and to focus on tackling the mind. Older people can be at the margins of those social and economic challenges of demographic change. groups and are peculiarly exposed to the dangers of I thank the Backbench Business Committee for selecting unintended consequences. There have been too many the motion for debate. I am pleased that the new Committee missed opportunities and unforeseen outcomes that agreed with the previous Committee that the issue of have robbed the Treasury of income, the taxpayer of co-ordinating policy for older people is worthy of time value for money and older people of life-enhancing on the Floor of the House. opportunities. I should also thank at the start of my speech the There are many Ministers across Government with 140,000 people who signed Anchor’s Grey Pride petition responsibilities that touch on some aspect of older calling for a Minister for older people to be appointed. people’s lives, but with only a narrow focus on one Unusually, it was not an online petition, and signatures policy area. That is why someone in government must were gathered from care home residents across the be responsible for the interests of older people. It would UK. I was approached by Anchor, a not-for-profit care be no good if it were a Minister of State from the home provider, as the Conservative chairman of the Department for Work and Pensions—I apologise to the all-party group on ageing and older people, to help Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, Anchor to present that petition at Downing street, and the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb)—or I was pleased to do so because I think the value of such from the Department of Health, because they would be an appointment is readily apparent. susceptible to the silo thinking we must avoid. The term “older people” is used often, but is likely to be used without much thought, even by those of us who Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Does my hon. purport to be their advocates. On a recent fact-finding Friend agree that this is an issue not just for central mission to my local hospital’s physiotherapy department, Government but for local government? Does she agree I met an elderly gentleman exercising his leg. “Hello,” I with the findings in the Select Committee on Health’s said, “What’s your name?” “Donald” he replied. “Do report on social care that we need a single joint you mind me asking how old you are Donald?” I asked. commissioner for health, social care and housing as we “I’m 83,” he said. “What happened to you?” I asked. “I move forward into health reform? broke my hip, my thigh and my shin bones,” he replied. As I thought of him trying to navigate a slippery Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right pavement in his slippers, I ventured, “Gosh, that must and I hope to give some practical examples of where have been a terrible fall.” “It was a parachuting accident,” I think that will have an effect. was the matter-of-fact response. That shut me up. The ministerial position should not be a new one; it Say, “older people” and the image that comes to mind should be an additional responsibility, and given to a is probably one of someone in gentle dotage plucking a member of the Cabinet. Hon. Members can see that I Werther’s Original from his cardigan pocket and proffering am not trying to insert an extra card with my name on it it to a beaming grandchild, but what about the skilled into the pack ahead of a reshuffle. manual worker who has been made redundant in his early 50s and is in need of a drastic career change to Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): Shame. carry on working? What about the grey entrepreneur who has a cracking business idea but faces far more Penny Mordaunt: Thank you. hurdles to get credit than a younger man would? What about the 80-year-old who is isolated in his own home, At the Cabinet table, Secretaries of State are jealous miles away from his family; or the couple who care for of their remit, ready to explain when another policy each other until one is ill but who cannot access the trespasses on their departmental interest. If there was support they need because ad hoc domiciliary care is someone with responsibility for older people, the not an option? implications for them of each policy presented to Cabinet could be considered. We have had forums, tsars, taskforces Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) and champions but we are still a long way from where (Con): I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend mention we need to be. We need to try something new. An older carers. In England and Wales, there are 1 million carers person is likely to get a better standard of care on a who are over 60 and 40,000 who are over 85. Does she hospital ward if there is one nurse on the shift with believe that a Minister for older people would be able to particular responsibility for that patient. Someone who act as a champion for those carers? has responsibility and is accountable will speak up to protect the interests of those in their care. Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right In the days leading up to the debate, it was suggested to raise that issue. We recently had carers week and I to me that older people are doing rather well at the know she is a great champion for all carers in her moment. The Government have introduced the triple constituency. lock on pensions, guaranteeing that the state pension 529 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 530 will increase by the greatest of earnings, prices or 2.5%. paying more tax through inability to process the forms? Pensioners enjoy free bus travel and winter fuel payments, Plans have been mooted to combine income tax and and the over-75s get a free TV licence. The DWP has national insurance contributions. Old-age pensioners done well, so it is not a shock that the Department is do not pay such contributions, so will there be a different responding to the debate, and I am delighted about tax rate for them, or will pensioners be taxed more? that. Against those arguments, however, we have to Quantitative easing and low interest rates are right consider the disproportionate impact of cost of living for the economy as a whole, but they are not good for increases on older people. Saga has shown that between older people who annuitise their pensions and live off 2007 and 2012, retail prices index cost of living increases their savings. Quantitative easing has reduced gilt yields, affected the whole population by 16.5%, but for 50 to on which annuities are based. The level of that annuity 64-year-olds, the figure was 19.1%; for 65 to 75-year-olds, is then locked in. Should not offset measures be considered? it was 22.4%; and for the over-75s, it was 22.2%. What about an extra individual savings account allowance? We would do well to consider the many reports on More thought is needed if fairness is to be upheld. health and social care that do not paint a rosy picture. Looking at work, economic analysts SQW found that The Equality and Human Rights Commission report older people benefit the economy by £175.9 billion, on domiciliary care, the Care Quality Commission report including £34 billion in social care and £10 billion in on hospital care, the Centre for Social Justice report on volunteering. Projections show that by 2030, those figures quality of life in isolation and today’s CQC report on will be £291.1 billion, £52 billion and £15 billion respectively. medication management beg to differ from the optimistic That affirms what Saga has found about the willingness view. There is huge unmet need. In my city, Portsmouth, of older people to participate, in and out of work. the local authority has budgeted for an extra 200 social Retirement is not a retreat from the world. Turning care clients over the next five years, due to an ageing Point has asserted that integrated work to enable older population, but today 1,000 people in the city have people to stay independent for longer could produce dementia and no access to any services. Major policy savings of between £1.20 and £2.65 for every £1 spent issues such as pension reform, which I am pleased the from the public purse. Saga’s research suggests that 71% Government have tackled, and social care reform, which of over-50s would like to work part-time after 65, and we still have to tackle—I am pleased that we are to do 7% already work past the age of 70. The Office for so—have been left for too long. National Statistics confirms that 1.4 million pensioners We need to do better. There is an argument for already work. additional responsibility for a Cabinet member, but The demographic shift requires us to work longer, such an initiative will be judged on the practical differences and we are willing and able to do so, but have businesses it makes. What might they look like? A YouGov survey and industry really caught up? The Chartered Institute on the attitudes of people over retirement age found of Personnel and Development suggests that 14% of that 14% of people aged over 60 live more than 100 miles managers do not believe that their organisations are away from their most significant family members, excluding ready for an older work force. The Government have their partner. Six per cent have to travel between 50 and responded to that need and willingness by abolishing 100 miles to family, 8% between 25 and 50 miles, and the compulsory retirement age and increasing the state 12% saw or heard from their family less than once a pension age, but those excellent policies have not been month. Isolation and inactivity were recognised by the accompanied by moves really to help employers manage House of Lords Select Committee on Science and their older workers and recruit new ones. At the close of Technology as accelerating 2011, 189,000 over-50s had been unemployed for more “physical and psychological declines, creating a negative spiral than one year. Of unemployed over-50s, 43% are long-term towards premature, preventable ill health and dependency.” unemployed, compared with 26% of unemployed 18 to How are those issues reflected in transport policy? In 24-year-olds and 35% of unemployed 25 to 49-year-olds. my area, Southern Trains has recently introduced on the Training is often denied to workers nearing state pension Portsmouth to Brighton route—a journey of 80 minutes age, as is promotion. Flexible working, phased retirement —rolling stock that has no toilets. In rail franchise and mentoring schemes are few and far between. We agreements, there is no mention of comfort standards need to do more to help older workers and to encourage or the provision of toilets, so old age pensioners could employers to take them on. have to travel in crippling discomfort. The impact of the In social care, we could certainly make better use of subsidy on train fares for old age pensioners is blunted, what we already have. As chairman of the all-party because it does not matter if the ticket is free when the group on ageing and older people, I often hear care mode of transportation is unusable. Older people are home providers boasting about their wonderful new left with a poorer quality of life because there is another home—its facilities, hairdressers, spas and shops. Those obstacle for them to overcome to stay in a job that care homes’ doors are often closed to the local community, involves a commute, and inactivity leads to demands on yet a few streets away there will be an elderly woman the health and social care budget. Transport Ministers who is still independent, but whose quality of life may be sympathetic, but the Department refuses to act. suffers for want of a social life and bathing facilities. A Minister for older people could intervene. How many bathing facilities lie unused in our hospitals, Let us look at the Treasury. In July 2011, the Office of homes and hospices? Tax Simplification was asked to review the system for Another example of missed opportunity is that most pensioner taxation. The interim report, published earlier local authorities do not direct self-funders inquiring this year, identified pay-as-you-earn on the state pension about care home options to financial advice. Instead, as an area to explore. People would not be taxed more, they wait until those people have spent their savings and but would pensioners have to fill out self-assessment are a burden on the state. Schemes that enable people to forms? Would they cope? Would they simply end up offset the cost of their care and keep their property 531 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 532

[Penny Mordaunt] has done to protect the interests of older people, and on his initiative better to understand their needs through assets intact by renting their home to the local authority, the UK advisory forum on ageing. I hope that he will thus easing pressure on housing waiting lists, are not take away from this debate the ideas and aspirations widespread, despite the headache that such initiatives that contributors will discuss, and consider how we would cure. might do a better job of spotting the opportunities and understanding the ambitions of this generation. There Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): is no better mark of the values of a nation than the way Does my hon. Friend agree that there is another anomaly in which it treats its older generation. This Government, in that a person who works and cares for their partner I am proud to say, are going to address the issue of receives carer’s allowance, but as soon as they retire, long-term care, which will have far-reaching implications, although they continue to care full time for that partner, and there is no better time to ensure policy on older they have to choose either their state pension or their people is well co-ordinated across Whitehall. carer’s allowance? That is a direct incentive for caring It is perhaps appropriate that our debate takes place retired spouses to call on the state for help, although it on the day on which, at long last, Bomber Command would be far better for their loved one if they continued has received the recognition that it deserves for its to care for them, with a bit of state support. immense achievement and sacrifice. I hope that the Arctic convoy veterans, too, will soon achieve the recognition Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct, that they deserve. Many of us are wondering why something and I know that she has made that and many other so needed, right and obvious should take so long to do. suggestions to the Chancellor and highlighted the Quite. administrative savings, as well as the improvements to the individual’s quality of life, that would result. Several hon. Members rose— Finally, let us look at Government communications. On taking office, the Government froze their £540 million Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Six Members advertising budget, and over the following nine months, wish to take part in the debate, so it is necessary to have they cut £130 million from it. Every time we mail an a time limit of 10 minutes, but if there are lots of older person about approaching retirement or a free interventions, we may need to revisit that. television licence and we do not accompany that mail with a flu-jab leaflet, information on the winter warmth Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On a point of scheme, or anything else that we want to send them that order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I did not want to week, we are wasting that remaining budget. interrupt the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Those are just a few examples of the way in which better Mordaunt), but as of four minutes ago, the fifth written focus in the Cabinet on older people’s issues could lead ministerial statement on the Order Paper, from the to improvements in the quality of life for older people Secretary of State for Education, on educational reform, and save us money. Who might be the person for that had not appeared in the Vote Office, despite its contacting important job? It should not be the Secretary of State the Department to remind it that it said that it would for Health or the Secretary of State for Work and issue that statement today. Is it not a discourtesy to the Pensions, because the heavy duties that they already House, Madam Deputy Speaker, that nearly six hours have in relation to older people could militate against after the House began to sit, the statement has still not the panoptical approach that is required. There is an arrived? After all, the Department is quick to leak obvious parallel with the Home Secretary’s additional stories to the Daily Mail, but it is slow to provide remit for women and equalities; a similar duty for older written ministerial statements that it has promised to people may sit well there. Such are the financial possibilities the House. of the reform that perhaps the youngest and emphatically least grey member of the Cabinet, the Chief Secretary Madam Deputy Speaker: Mr Brennan, you will be to the Treasury, should take on the role. aware of Mr Speaker’s ruling in this matter. He has The Deputy Prime Minister, it appears, was at a loss indicated in this Session—and, indeed, it was indicated as to what to do with himself in quiet hours at the in the previous Session—that written ministerial statements Cabinet Office, and took to doodling constitutional should arrive promptly on the day for which notice has wrecking balls on the back of fag packets. He is now been given. That does not stretch on a Thursday to very busy indeed encouraging us to abolish the House 4.30 in the afternoon, so I will make inquiries as to of Lords, where many older people are to be found when we expect to receive the statement to which you doing great work for this country. If he turned his refer. I am sure that Ministers will ensure that it flies attention away from that constitutionally destructive here as quickly as possible, because you are clearly keen policy towards this economically and socially constructive to read it immediately. proposal, we would be much better off. There would be If there are no further points of order, perhaps we many candidates for the job and, given the massive can move on. I call Julie Hilling. gains to be made in the quality of life for older people as a result of effective and efficient government, as well as a better return on investment, one would think that 4.29 pm there would be a long queue to do the job. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I am extremely Further evidence of the need for a co-ordinating role pleased to speak in the debate and delighted to follow is shown by how difficult it was to agree the responsibility the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt). to respond to this debate. I congratulate the Minister of I thank her for leading our request to the Backbench State on stepping forward, on the work that his Department Business Committee for the debate. 533 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 534

Last August I was invited to visit Ryelands court paying into the system to a recipient of care. During the in my constituency. Ryelands is an Anchor Homes past year Mum spent some time in acute care and a development providing flats for older people in couple of months in a rehabilitation hospital, then she Westhoughton. They asked me to sign their petition for was back in acute care, and went into respite care for a Minister for older people and I was delighted to join nearly eight months. She had fantastic physiotherapy the 137,000 other people who thought this was a good and two months ago she made it back to her flat. idea. As only 34% of 65 to 74-year-olds and 31% of Because the care home rarely sees anyone walking out people over 75 feel that they are able to influence on their own two feet, the staff laid out a red carpet for decisions affecting their local area, and when 1.8 million her. In fact, it was a pink blanket, but it was the same as pensioners are living in poverty—that is 16% of people a red carpet. over state pension age—I absolutely agree with the Mum now has carers four times a day, visits from the campaign for a Minister for older people. community matron, regular visits to the hospital, and is Labour has already recognised the need for such a paying for physiotherapy. Whether it is because of her position with the appointment of my hon. Friend the basic fitness when she had the stroke, or just because of Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) as the shadow her extreme determination—she is a very determined Minister for care and older people, with a seat in the woman—she is continuing to make wonderful progress. shadow Cabinet. I very much hope this debate will The care that she received has varied from the excellent encourage the Government to appoint a Cabinet member to the appalling, and if she did not have a family to champion the needs and aspirations of older people, battling with her the whole way, I hate to think what with clear cross-departmental accountability for the may have occurred. She lost all dignity on this journey. services that they receive. One might ask why we need The first day a young man wiped her bottom, she was so for a Minister for older people. Should it not be the ashamed, but after 10 months she became used to responsibility of everyone? My experience of working depending on help—help that from the majority has with the issues of equality and discrimination over been excellent, but a few of those who have cared for many years has taught me that as soon as we mainstream her should really think about a change in career. She is an issue and make it everybody’s responsibility, we lose also £20,000 poorer and still worries about paying for focus and end up with nobody doing anything. her care. There are other costs. We have just booked to If we wonder why we should concentrate on older go on a cruise this summer, but it took me all day to find people, let me provide some statistics. Because of the an insurance company prepared to insure her and, in baby-boomer generation of the 1950s and 1960s, the the end, there was only one—thank you, Saga—at a number of people over the age of 65 is likely to rise by cost of £750. 49% to more than 16 million in the next 20 years. My mother’s story is not unusual. Families every day Fortunately for the planet, but unfortunately for those are facing the decision of whether or not to move their of us who will be retiring, the growth in the younger loved ones into a care home, wondering whether they population has not matched the longevity of older can afford it and what will happen when the money runs people and therefore many fewer people will be paying out. We need someone at the Cabinet table battling for into the system. By 2020 more jobs are expected to be the Dilnot report or for another solution. Mum has created than entrants to the work force, which is likely been very lucky. Since the cuts to the Supporting People to mean that there will be considerable demand for older funds and local authority budgets, many people no workers. However, there is significant age discrimination longer receive any support in their homes. The £259 million in our society. Policy Exchange did a blind study, applying Supporting People fund, which kept older people in for 1,200 jobs posing as both an older and a younger sheltered housing, provided a net financial benefit of worker. The 51-year-old got fewer than half the number £1.1 billion by reducing the need for residential and of positive responses that the 25-year-old received. Even nursing care, hospital admissions and home care. That though there are clear laws to prevent it, there is definitely money is gone. What a false economy. a culture of bias against older workers. As the hon. Member for Portsmouth North said, the We have also seen horrifying reports of the violation House of Lords Science and Technology Committee of older people’s right in the care system and in hospitals, has reported that isolation and inactivity accelerate including people being refused treatment on the basis of physical and psychological decline, creating a negative their chronological age, not on the basis of their fitness spiral towards premature and preventable ill health and for treatment. We too often see older people as problems, dependency. We now have a society in which often we not as equal members of society with the same hopes live very far away from our loved ones: 14% of people and fears as everyone else. Services to older people are over 60 live more than 100 miles from their most not just about care, but about health, pensions, housing, significant family member, and 12% of older people see transport, education and leisure, and we badly need family members less than once a month. The decline in someone around the Cabinet table championing their adult education and the cuts to the voluntary sector issues and making sure that there are no unintended leave more and more older people isolated in their consequences of policy. homes. Of course, the needs of older people can change very Last month I visited Belong village in Atherton, a rapidly. Many hon. Members will have heard me talk on purpose-built and not-for-profit residential complex catering previous occasions about my mother’s journey. Twelve for people who need 24/7 care and also those who live months and 10 days ago my mum was an incredibly independently in flats on the same complex. There are active 86-year-old, still teaching three yoga classes a activities, a restaurant, exercise and much more, and it week, practising reflexology, driving her car, totally is open to the local community to come in and take part independent. Then, out of the blue, she suffered a very in those activities. We need to look at more examples severe stroke. Overnight she went from an older person like that and build homes that are fit for older people. 535 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 536

[Julie Hilling] The requirements of a Minister go well beyond the role of champion, however. A Minister should do battle Hopefully, we will all become older people—in some for the cause, and that involves questioning and challenging people’s eyes many of us already are. Older people have the effects of policy on older constituents. I have a few specific needs that need to be championed. We need the examples from the past and present. Equality Act 2010 provision outlawing age discrimination The social care budget for the five years to 2010 was in relation to goods and services to be implemented almost static, meaning that the same budget had to now, at a time when we have an ageing population who stretch to cover more and more older people, and that most need it. I hope that the Government listen to us, local authorities were no longer able to fund care for and the other 137,000 people, and appoint a Minister people in moderate need. They started to restrict care to for older people as soon as possible. people in critical need, and that is going to have implications for the future which an older people’s Minister would 4.37 pm have been able to spot and to anticipate. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate There is still plenty to challenge on behalf of older my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North people, and, as the Minister of State, Department for (Penny Mordaunt) on leading the charge to secure this Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury debate and all the other work she does on behalf of and Yate (Steve Webb) is here to answer our debate, older people. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. I congratulate him on securing the best ever deal, as Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), whose mother announced this year, for pensioners, but he will know I have had the privilege of meeting—she is indeed very that existing pensioners are concerned about proposals fortunate to have such a daughter. for a flat-rate individual pension for new pensioners Before entering Parliament I was a local councillor in from 2015. Kensington and Chelsea and served as older people’s If the new pension were set at £140 a week, it would champion for the borough. What I learned in that role provide a couple who both drew their pension with an has reinforced my support for the campaign, led by income of more than £14,000 a year. Currently, a couple Anchor housing and supported by so many charities in receipt of the basic state pension and the additional and housing organisations, for a clear voice at ministerial state pension receive an income of more than £11,000, level for older people. however, so the difference between what I understand to We already have Ministers with specific responsibility be the new flat rate, £140, payable to both members of for women, children and people with disabilities. The the couple and the amount paid to existing pensioners Minister for Women is also the Minister for Equalities in a couple will be almost £3,000 a year. I welcome the but, although that includes older people with regard desirability of a new system in terms of simplicity and to discrimination in the workplace, the Equalities brief the restoration of incentives to save, but I ask the is focused primarily on ethnic minorities and gay and Minister to address the sense of unfairness building up transgendered people. If those five demographic groups among the currently retired population. are represented at ministerial level, why are older people There is also a need to challenge the “never had it so not? Surely such different treatment implies some good” mentality that has built up among think tanks discrimination. and interest groups, one example of which the Institute The arguments for having a Minister for older people for Fiscal Studies published recently. There are affluent go further than the fact that other demographic groups pensioners, and some are asset-rich and income-poor, are represented at ministerial level. There are a specific but there is also considerable pensioner poverty. The set of interests and challenges associated with our ageing scandalous deaths of older people each winter, owing to population that require the voice and insights of older fuel poverty and numbering more than 20,000 in the people to be heard and taken into account across most recent year for which figures are available, shame Government. our society. What would the role of an older people’s Minister I have covered the importance of a Minister for older involve? I have learned, from my own experience of a people as champion, advocate and challenger of policy, similar role locally, that older people’s interests are but the final critical aspect of the role would be to act as commonly perceived to lie in health, benefits and pensions, a critical friend to the older population; the job could but that is a misperception, because older people have not simply be to promote older people’s economic interests interests across a far wider of spectrum of policy, and, in a silo, as if the wider economy were not an issue. That as my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North is why I spoke up for the measure, announced in the said, in areas such as transport their experiences are Budget, to reduce the special tax threshold that is totally different, on account of their age, from those of allowed for pensioners. younger people. One of the toughest jobs of the Minister for older One policy area that is of prime importance today people would be to manage the expectations of our is the voluntary sector, and research by HSBC has older population now and of the general population as found that the economic value of volunteering among they approach old age. The Government have taken people over 60 years old is £4 billion. My constituency difficult decisions to raise the retirement age and to put has a remarkable voluntary and charitable sector, public sector pensions on a more sustainable footing, which relies hugely on the energy and dedication of but we will in time have to go further. It is a year since large numbers of people who have already retired from the Dilnot commission reported on the funding of paid employment, so an older person’s Minister should long-term care. I understand that there is no new money champion that aspect of their lives. They are not a cost to fund Dilnot’s recommendations, and a new Minister to, and a burden on, society; they are contributors to will have to level with families and older people about society. what is affordable and what will have to be financed by 537 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 538 individuals, families and private insurance schemes in wrong that what he described could happen to anybody, future. I personally subscribe to much of what is in the but particularly wrong that it happened to somebody in commission’s proposals as regards standardising eligibility their fifties. He knew that he was not being given his criteria, making care packages more portable around medication properly, but when he complained the staff the country, and setting out standards that individuals treated him as though he were foolish, doddery and and carers can expect. incapable of remembering, yet of course he had his I am pleased that the Government are going to bring memory and knew that he was being badly treated. forth a Bill in this Parliament to address these matters, There is a real and proper concept of responsibility in and more, but I hope that if they accept the need for issues to do with the elderly. Perhaps the Justice Secretary an older people’s Minister, that person would start to is the right person to take this on; I suspect that he has a lay out what it is reasonable to expect and not to expect natural feel for these issues. from the taxpayer towards implementing Dilnot’s We need to be careful that we do not silo what we fundamental recommendations on the funding of long- mean by care for the elderly, because it covers a huge term care. range of issues. It is important that we recognise that among the elderly are people like the elderly woman in 4.45 pm my constituency who is well into her hundreds, but still helps those who are frailer than her, although considerably Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure her junior, by taking them cups of tea and such like. to follow the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James). When I asked her one day whether she was going to I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Portsmouth play bingo with the other old people she said, “No, no, I North (Penny Mordaunt), who made an intelligent and am going to walk down to the local commercial bingo wide-ranging speech that helpfully set the parameters hall—the prizes are better.” She does not need many of for this debate. the things that would be classified as being for the First, I want to talk about the treatment of the Arctic elderly. It is important that we accept the point made by convoy veterans, which is a disgrace to our nation. My the hon. Member for Portsmouth North that it is the constituent, Mac McNeill, who was a boy when he concept that we need, rather than an overly rigid volunteered to join what was unfortunately classified as classification of the elderly. the “non-Royal Navy”, experienced the most horrendous hardships during that period of his life and saw many of In my few remaining moments, I want to talk about his friends and comrades die. He pointed out to me the something that troubles me and that I think will trouble irony of his having a chestful of medals from the Soviet all Members of the House. Every one of us would say Union—the Russian Federation—but very little by way that the recent case of the abuse of young children in of recognition from our own society. In that respect, Rochdale was an outrage and that the full force of the I heartily agree with the hon. Member for Portsmouth law ought to be used against those who brutally use and North. abuse our young children. We ought to have exactly the same sense of outrage at the abuse of the vulnerable Penny Mordaunt: I do not know whether the hon. and elderly. The stroke victim to whom I referred a few Gentleman is aware that the Prime Minister has instigated moments ago would be in that category. We are a a review that is due to report imminently; I gave evidence considerable way off that. to it, as did many other hon. Members. I therefore hope I say to the Minister gently that the Care Quality that the situation will be rectified very shortly. Commission may have its merits, but the jury is out on what it has been doing. I heard on the radio this Tony Lloyd: I strongly join the hon. Lady in hoping morning about its report on the giving of medicines. that that is the case. It is a matter not only of justice but The comment was made—I paraphrase, but I do not of recognising the contribution that our fellow citizens think unfairly—that 80% of the time it is going well. made at a time of national need and crisis. Eighty per cent. of the time is not good enough when Secondly, we need to think about how we classify the dealing with individuals. One hundred per cent. of the needs of the elderly. The hon. Member for Portsmouth time is good enough. Ninety-nine per cent. is not good North rightly drew our attention to her 83-year-old enough because it means that some people are not constituent who is fit and active enough to jump out of getting the medication that they need. planes—something that many of us in this Chamber When there is abuse of the elderly, such as in the would not want to do, at less than 83 years of age. I can Winterbourne View case, we have to look to the criminal think of people who would not necessarily be classified justice system. We need a much more robust system of as elderly but have the same needs. Somebody said to whistleblowing, whereby those who feel that they are me today that, ironically, dementia is not a working-class not being listened to can have their voice heard and can condition. That may be an extension of the reality, but have matters fast-tracked. I concede that in many cases there is some truth in it, because those who die younger inspection is the right way to deal with such problems, suffer less from the conditions that are associated with but in the worst cases, the full force of the criminal law age. Areas such as the one that I represent unfortunately must be brought in to prevent the abuse. If we are not have that social categorisation. prepared to say that those who abuse our elderly will Someone recently drew my attention to a home where end up with criminal sanctions, we will have failed. victims of stroke were given care, including a man in his Last night, a debate was started about whether the fifties who was mentally very fit and active but physically criminal law has a role to play in dealing with Barclays severely taken down by the stroke that he had had. He bank. If we are prepared to talk about the role of the found that he was treated wrongly in the same way as criminal law in dealing with financial irregularities, we more elderly residents, but in his case it was more should certainly be able to talk about its role when the challenging because he knew what was going on. It is vulnerable and elderly are treated in the most appalling 539 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 540

[Tony Lloyd] in wheelchairs. Only when people associate with those who need wheelchair assistance do they stop saying, way. Everybody would agree with that statement, but “What a wretched nuisance” when they see someone we must fast-track the process for those who are subjected trying to get by on a Zimmer frame or in a wheelchair. to threats or to care that is inappropriate. There must be They instead say, “How can we raise the money for a lift a system of gradation by which we begin to improve for elderly people?” Only when those things touch people where improvement is possible and to clamp down on do they realise how valuable they are, as the hon. the very worst features. Member for Bolton West rightly reminded the House. I I will finish as I began: by congratulating the hon. congratulate Anchor, which is a wonderful organisation, Member for Portsmouth North. This is a genuinely on getting 140,000 people to sign an online petition. important debate. There are many other concerns for That is a great triumph. the elderly that we could raise and she has raised many Many people would say that as people move on and important issues. become older, they return to childhood. I do not mean I will make one final point, which is slightly partisan, that judgmentally. When we are very young, we are but is nevertheless important. The Prime Minister opened totally dependent on others, which is eventually what up a debate this week about how we treat people within happens in later life. There is a further link between the welfare system. He said that he would honour the young and old: they are the times of life when people pledge on the winter fuel payment and free transport are best placed to impart wisdom. Older people’s roles for the elderly for the life of this Parliament. We could as grandparents and great-grandparents should be do with some clarification of what that means for after recognised—that vital glue across generations holds our the next election. I understand that the Minister can society together. answer for only one half of the coalition, but we need to There is a crucial difference between the old and the have that debate. If we are to see changes in this area, young in this country: younger generations are heavily they ought to be debated by society in general. If we are catered for in politics through the Department for talking about the quality of life of the elderly, and not Education, but far less support is available for those simply about the economic functioning of the elderly, classified as older people. We used to hear about joined-up we have to recognise that things such as access to Government and Departments working together. No transport and people’s ability to maintain their role as doubt the Minister will contradict me, but I need to be full members of society depend on a form of social convinced that that is happening currently. For the sake contract. That is why a champion for the elderly would of joined-up Government, however, I congratulate my be an important step forward. hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North—my younger hon. Friend—on introducing the motion to 4.54 pm give a Minister responsibility for older people. According to Age UK Essex, there are fewer under-18s Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): When I saw in the UK than over-65s. The total number in this age the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) and group stands at 10.3 million. Each year, 650,000 more her mother in a wheelchair on the Terrace on the day of people turn 65, and one-fifth of the population is of the flotilla, I had no idea what the circumstances were. pensionable age. What is more, with ever-better health I have now found out that it was the first outing for her care, life styles and support, more people are living mother. All I would say after the hon. Lady’s moving longer. On average, people in Southend live to 80. We all speech is that her mother can be extremely proud of her welcome that change, of course, but we want people to daughter. grow old with dignity. According to projections from My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North Age UK, the number of people aged 60-plus will increase (Penny Mordaunt) made a splendid speech—her remarks by 50% over the next 25 years, while in 2083 one in three about the other place will live with me for some little people will be over 60. So we are clearly faced with a while. I congratulate her on securing the debate, and serious problem. the Backbench Business Committee, of which I am My constituency has the most senior citizens in the unashamedly a member, on having the good sense to country. Every year, we have a tea party—we have been grant it. in the Guinness book of records three times and are There is some disappointment with the motion. I had having another one this year to break the world record rather hoped we would be given the opportunity to make again. It is wonderful: as they leave the tea party, they our pitch to become Minister for the elderly, but my always say, “See you next year.” According to recent hon. Friend cleverly says in the motion that the responsibility statistics outlined by Age UK, 36.1% of Southend’s will go to a current member of the Government. I should population is classified as “old”. More than 24,000 people also tell my hon. Friend that the longer she is here, the are aged between 65 and 84, while more than 5,000 are more she will struggle to find anything original to say. over 85. The trend in Essex is clear: over the next She will not be surprised that, over the years, a number 15 years, we can expect a 39% increase in the number of of colleagues have made similar suggestions. However, over-65s. I want her to be in a position to celebrate after the All I am saying is that this is happening, and we debate, and that we hear from No. 10 of the appointment cannot bury our heads in the sand. In earlier years, we of a Minister with responsibility for older people. have had big arguments about people having to sell As my own dear mother starts her second century, their homes—it was all wrong in terms of people’s I have some experience in these matters. There seems to inheritance and so on. It will be a brave political party—I be a fashion—I think it was started by my hon. Friend know we have a coalition at the moment—that faces up the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon)—for colleagues to the terrible question of how we fund the future care to go around with broken arms, wrists and knees, and of an ageing population. When I go around the excellent hip replacements. Everyone seems to be on crutches or care homes in my constituency, it is heartbreaking to 541 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 542 be told, “There are never any visitors for some of our and second world wars, we would not have our Parliament residents, but when it comes to the funeral, they all turn today. We have a duty to support them. I congratulate up to see what they’ve been left.” These are real issues my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North that we need to face up to. again, as this debate represents a significant step in the There is a wide variety of issues affecting older people, right direction. I fully expect a Minister to announce and services need to be co-ordinated. From pensions, from the Dispatch Box at the end of the debate that the and health and social care, to fuel poverty and housing, Government will indeed appoint a Minister for Older each individual will have problems unique to them, and People. in most instances these problems will span several Departments. Essex Age UK has researched what sort Several hon. Members rose— of support older people would like, and its conclusions included: mobility, managing personal affairs, transport, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Will better access to information and recreational opportunities. Members please resume their seats. An earlier point of Older people need to be stimulated. It is no good order related to written ministerial statement No. 5, everyone sitting in a lounge with no stimulation. If we which Kevin Brennan said had not been lodged. The stimulate older people, their quality of life improves. House will wish to be informed that it has now been lodged. Dr Wollaston: Would my hon. Friend add to his excellent list the role for technology in helping to improve 5.6 pm the lives of older people? In my area, Devon and Cornwall, more than 250 older people go missing every Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) year, many of them with dementia. Many technological (Con): It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the advances can be used to give older people much greater Member for Southend West (Mr Amess), who made a confidence to go out, knowing they can be found quickly fantastic speech, highlighting the human challenges and easily, and to reduce distress. Also, many technological that many older people face and rightly arguing that improvements can keep older people in touch, give people who have worked hard for our country deserve them a link with younger people and improve their IT to be properly looked after in their retirement. skills. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) for initiating this Mr Amess: I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend, debate. She was absolutely right to say that we need a who is right to mention dementia. Fortunately, in our more integrated approach to elderly care nationally and area, through the generosity of a local resident, Ivan locally. She was also right to highlight the importance Heath, we will shortly be opening Peaceful Place to care of housing as part of that integrated approach. I am for people with dementia. My goodness that is an issue somewhat reassured that this Government have already we must increasingly face up to, given our ageing population. taken great strides in the right direction properly to She is also right to talk about the assistance that improved support and recognise the needs of older people. I am technology can provide. somewhat more reassured than my hon. Friend about The Dilnot commission, agreed to in the coalition the Government’s plans to reform the upper House. I agreement, has now reported, with some controversy. I look forward to speaking in support of those plans in have been involved in this issue for some time, and in the debate that will take place shortly. 2000 I was fortunate to come fourth in the ballot for Before the general election, Age UK set an important private Members’ Bills, so I am associated with the test on the key challenges facing elderly care in this Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000, which Parliament. It is worth highlighting what those challenges sought to eliminate fuel poverty, and the more that were and measuring what the Government have done to colleagues can do to advertise the help available to older meet them. We can be greatly reassured that the people, the better. There is much they can claim. Government are already well on the way to dealing with In conclusion, there is a good precedent for creating a many of the issues older people face today. Minister for older people within the current Government. First, Age UK set out the problem of forced retirement, We have a Minister for nearly every walk of life—for which it said must be ended by scrapping the default children, for disabled people, for women and equalities—so retirement age. The Government have clearly done that why can we not have one for older people? Such a in their first few months. Older people should be allowed position might even warrant a promotion. My right to work while they are able to work. The default retirement hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) age discriminated against the valuable contribution older who does a splendid job as Home Secretary is concurrently people can make and continue to make to the workplace. the Minister for Women and Equalities, managing both This Government should be proud—I am proud to be roles equally well. A dual role could easily be managed part of them—of scrapping that discrimination against by one of my right hon. or hon. Friends. It is important older people. Government Members can all be proud to note this has been done internationally—in Ireland, of that. Canada and New Zealand, for example. Ministers for The second test set by Age UK was that radical older people have been appointed in those countries. reform of the care and support system should be taken We should do everything we possibly can to ensure forward as an urgent priority. I am pleased to note the that people in old age are treated with as much respect consensual approach across the House today, which, and dignity as possible. They have worked all their lives, wherever possible, is an important part of that. I am experienced a huge number of scenarios and situations greatly encouraged by the fact that the Minister with and contributed to this country in countless ways. If it responsibility for adult care and social care will respond were not for the sacrifices of older people in the first later this year to the Dilnot commission’s funding proposals 543 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 544

[Dr Daniel Poulter] Already, two years into the current Parliament, the Government have passed all five of the tests set for and assess how we can better look after older people them by Age UK. We look forward to the proposals for and better integrate care at the local level so that we can meaningful reform of the social care system and proper provide greater dignity in elderly care. We have heard a funding that the Government will present later in the lot today about abuses and indignities and about variability year, but I am reassured that they are already making in the care system, which was brought home to us very great strides in relation to elderly care. What they are effectively by the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie doing for older people has already surpassed what has Hilling). It is important that the Government continue been done by many Governments in the past. to support older people and improve the social care Although I consider the appointment of an older system. people’s Minister to be a laudable notion, I think that The third test that Age UK set for the incoming the Government are doing very well already. Government before the election was that they should prevent the current system from collapsing, and introduce 5.14 pm proper safeguards that would guarantee joined-up, integrated care through health-related spending. The Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): Government have already committed themselves to investing I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth £3.8 billion in the NHS to provide the necessary integration North (Penny Mordaunt) on securing this important between the NHS and social care. My hon. Friend the debate, and I am glad to have an opportunity to raise Member for Portsmouth North rightly said that more the views of Blackpool here in the Chamber. Blackpool joined-up care was needed at a local level. Only if that is in many respects a pensioners’ capital. We have just additional £3.8 billion is filtered into local NHS hosted the National Pensioners Convention, at which providers—hospitals and primary care providers—will the Minister with responsibility for adult and social we be able to secure the joined-up, integrated care, care, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam involving adult social services and health care providers, (Paul Burstow), was due to speak. Unfortunately, however, that we need so badly in order to focus on preventive he had to return to the Chamber to reply to an Opposition care for older people. day debate. The NPC replaced him at the Winter Gardens with a cabbage. I am not sure what fruit or vegetable the Age UK’s fourth challenge was that the commitment pensions Minister might like to be represented by; he to link the basic state pension with earnings must be might tell us when he delivers his winding-up speech. I honoured by 2012, and pension payments must be should warn him, however, that the banana has already increased over time as and when that became affordable. been taken by the right hon. Member for South Shields The Government have already achieved that as well. (David Miliband), so it is off the menu. The triple lock on pensions will ensure that, for the first time, older people will receive a meaningful increase in My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West the basic state pension every year. That will help them (Mr Amess) told us that his constituency had the most to meet the rising cost of living, especially in these pensioners. I am trying to compete with him in that difficult economic times. The commitment in this year’s regard. As with most coastal towns, both Blackpool Budget to increase the basic state pension to £140 a and Southend have large populations of retirees. week is a commitment of which the Government can be proud, and we know that it will become a reality in the Mr Amess: Has there been any reaction yet among future. older people in my hon. Friend’s constituency to his winning the very special charity champion award last night? The fifth and final test was that NHS resources must be redirected towards community health services that Paul Maynard: Modesty forbids me from commenting, sustain a good quality of life by preventing and treating so we will draw a veil over that. common health conditions. As I have said, the Government have made a clear commitment to invest £3.8 billion in My constituency has the most people who live in the NHS to support interaction with local social care a household with someone with a long-term medical services, but, in addition, a major element of their condition, so carers policy perhaps matters more there health care reforms was the establishment of health than in any other seat. I am therefore as aware as any and wellbeing boards. For the first time, primary care Member about some of the issues raised today. practitioners, secondary care clinicians, nurses, housing In order to access carer’s allowance, people have to providers such as Anchor—all the key players who are apply for pension credit, to which they may not be so essential to providing that joined-up, integrated care entitled. People might know that that application will for older people—will be brought together. be rejected, but they still have to apply in order to access carer’s allowance—an obvious anomaly in accessing As has already been said today, it can no longer be benefits. Although we all know that many pensioners considered acceptable for older people to fall and break do not claim everything that they are entitled to, they their hips because of poor housing conditions and poor are still not getting what they should be getting. lighting in their homes, and for the NHS to have to deal with the consequences. The challenge must be to provide I know from my postbag and my surgeries that there more integrated care and better preventive care, and we would be no shortage of work for a Minister for older will do so by ensuring that all the key players work people. Almost every Government Department has some together properly. The establishment of local health policy issue that matters more to older people than to and wellbeing boards was a step in the right direction any other group. towards the provision of the joined-up, integrated care The Service Personnel and Veterans Agency is located that we want, which will save the NHS money, but, in my constituency. I will spend the next three days more important, will provide dignity in elderly care. attending various Blackpool veterans week events, because 545 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 546

I know that matters, not least to my older constituents. effectiveness, which was often not related at all to where My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North they sat or where their home was. What matters is what talked about the Arctic convoys medal, too. someone does. Buses are another key issue, as in my constituency It is worth looking at what is done abroad, because they are used predominantly by elderly residents. There there are some instructive lessons. I do not normally are also complicated matters such as the past presence take the French as a model of how to behave in any test, about which we are arguing with the European situation in life, but they have often had a ministry of Union, as well as eligibility for benefits when abroad, solidarity between the generations, as they put it. That and what happens when people return. There is a long is an interesting concept. We often battle in this country, list of such issues—and I have not yet mentioned long-term with some saying that the young are getting too many care for the elderly and the Dilnot report. resources and others saying that the elderly are. That I am something of a nostalgia specialist. I like to look French Department tried to resolve the two, to bring back at the first post-war Labour Government, and try them together and to work out how intergenerational to do so with a degree of fondness because they knew solidarity is actually created. To be honest, I do not know how to use royal commissions as a policy-making tool. whether it worked terribly well, but it is an interesting They managed to secure all-party support, and produced idea that is worth thinking about. some of our greatest welfare reforms. Sadly, the last Australia has a Minister for Mental Health and Ageing, Labour Government turned their back on royal who is No. 2 in the health Department. So the Australians commissions as a policy tool. I remember the royal do have a Minister for older people, although some commission on long-term care. It was a gargantuan might quibble about the linking of those two things. In exercise—voluminous, colourful, pretty—yet it was utterly Ireland, Áine Brady, a Fianna Fáil Minister in the ineffective because nothing ever happened after it. The previous Government, was Minister for Older People journey to secure reform of long-term care has been and Health Promotion. Sadly that particular Government long, arduous and, hitherto, fruitless, yet I retain some left office—it was not sad for the Irish people, as this is optimism that the current Government might find enough democracy—and the current Government decided not coins down the back of the sofa to get things right this to retain that title. time; I have my fingers crossed. I note that the Labour party has a Front-Bench spokesman on this specific issue. I can go as far as to As well as the range of issues Members on both sides welcome that, but I note that in opposition we had a of the House have raised today, it should be stated that shadow Minister for coastal towns and that role did not we face a demographic challenge, which we must overcome. survive the transfer to office. It is far easier in opposition It is time that we thought about setting up a royal for people to create the architecture around what they commission on the consequences for this country of want to campaign on, rather than around the architecture having an ageing population. It would cover a much of the Government buildings that they then have to slot wider remit than trying to solve a specific policy problem. into. So that provides a good example, too. It would assess what the challenges are and what they mean for every Government Department. The example I pray in aid in particular is that of New Zealand, which does have a Minister for older people, A key issue in this regard is the consequences of sited in its Ministry of Health. New Zealand also has an having a population that is—to put it crudely, perhaps— office for senior citizens, situated in its Ministry of dying more slowly. We no longer die rapidly from heart Social Development. That is a particularly interesting attacks or other such conditions that might hit us in our combination. Before Conservative Front Benchers start prime. Now, the decline is much slower and gradual, to worry that I am proposing yet another quango, I can and it is much more expensive for the taxpayer in tell them that they need not fear as nothing could be providing appropriate care. That deserves some analysis. further from my mind. None the less, what both Ireland The specific proposal to have a Cabinet Minister in and New Zealand had in common was that they had this area is an interesting one. This question is not so first developed what they called a “positive ageing strategy”. much about policy towards the elderly, but about So before they appointed the Minister, they ensured government architecture: how do we make things happen that the Minister had something to do. One of my in government? As many have pointed out, we have concerns is that if we have a general Minister whose Ministers for the disabled and for children. Both positions objective is to proof all policies so that older people do are at Minister of State level and both cross more than not experience a disbenefit, we will end up getting a bit one Department. We also have a Minister for pensions—the fluffy and soggy. I would far rather have a set of very Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, specific areas that affect older people that the Government my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate should be focusing on; these would be certain policy (Steve Webb), whom I am delighted to see on the Front areas that should be driven through. Bench today—and a Minister for adult social care. As much as I love the Deputy Prime Minister—I Perhaps they could arm-wrestle each other for the title adore him, I swear I do—I know that he is burdened by of being the Minister for older people. That Minister trying to cope with the problems of social mobility, could sit across both the relevant Departments and which are being discussed in Westminster Hall at the perhaps could have the same effect that the Ministers moment. I am not sure that I would wish to give him for children and for the disabled are having. I do not older people to deal with as well, because he has to fit in think that someone needs to be in the Cabinet to trips to Rio; one man cannot do everything, surely. achieve things. There is a grave danger of our being Rather than simply nominating one Cabinet Minister more concerned about the name and where this person and tacking older people on to the end of their sits than about what they can actually achieve. We have responsibilities, I would far prefer it if we created a new had a history of tsars—an entire palace of Romanovs role that had a very specific remit, that had a positive was produced by the previous Government—all of varying ageing strategy behind it and that had only a handful of 547 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 548

[Paul Maynard] Before I came to the Chamber, I was at a very interesting event organised by Grandparents Plus where specific policy proposals to see through. In this country, I was told that 28% of grandparents have parents still we do not define the remit of a Government Department living. They are a sandwich generation, helping out closely enough. We have aspirations, but often they read with the kids as well as helping their own parents. We to me as waffle. A good example is HS2. One of the have what I would call the young old as well as the older Department for Transport’s goals is to introduce HS2, old, and the young old want to try new things, especially which is fine, but it never says why that is particularly when they have retired, to develop new skills and to important. It states the goal, not the reasons for it. I travel to different places. They want to enjoy their lives. would far rather we had a much narrower focus. They want to have fun, if they have time to do so after I welcome the debate and think it is an opportunity all the other things they are doing. to put dignity at the forefront of everything we do in The aspirations of today’s over-60s are in many ways government. Sometimes, I am disappointed that Ministers quite different from those of previous generations. My do not always have dignity at the forefront of their parents have quite different expectations from their minds in every decision they take. We should not need a parents of the kind of life they want. My expectations, new Minister to achieve that, but if that is what it takes those of my niece and those of the one in three babies then so be it. Once again, I congratulate the hon. born this year who will live to be 100 years old will be Member for Portsmouth North on securing this important very different in the future too. debate. If older people are not an homogenous group, if they 5.25 pm have different views, needs and expectations, why have a Minister for older people? The first reason is that despite Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): I start by thanking all their differences, one thing that the young old and the Backbench Business Committee for enabling this older old frequently say is that they too often feel important debate to take place, and I congratulate the invisible to politicians, businesses, public services and hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) the media. That is a key reason behind the Grey Pride on securing it. I know that she has been very committed campaign: to ensure that the needs and views of older to the issue and I am delighted that we have discussed people are heard and understood at the highest level, so it today. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for that we can change attitudes about older people, challenge Bolton West (Julie Hilling), the hon. Member for the stereotypes and put older people at the forefront of Stourbridge (Margot James), my hon. Friend the Member British political debate. Of course, a Minister for older for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd), and the hon. people could not do that on their own: local businesses, Members for Southend West (Mr Amess), for Central councils, public services, voluntary groups and the media Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) and for Blackpool all have a vital role to play, but the Government can and North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) for their speeches. must take action. The previous Labour Government’s In particular, I thank Anchor for the superb Grey Equality Act 2010 will be crucial in helping to turn the Pride campaign it has run and the 137,000 people who tide on some of the age discrimination we see, including signed its petition, which made today’s debate possible. in goods and services, but Governments must also take As hon. Members might know, the Leader of the positive steps to ensure that older people’s needs and Opposition created the post of shadow Minister for concerns are actively promoted in every area. older people in the shadow Cabinet in October last year, That leads me to the second reason why we need a and I feel privileged and honoured to have been appointed Minister for older people: to ensure that all Departments to the position. I hope the Government will follow suit understand the issues facing older people and that work and appoint their own Minister for older people in the is properly co-ordinated across Government. Many hon. Cabinet, and I will use my speech today to explain why. Members have discussed the different Departments that My first point is obvious, but none the less important: need to understand the views, feelings and expectations older people are not an homogenous group. They have of older people. Let me repeat some of those and add different views, needs and expectations, just as people in some more. any other age group do. We would not treat everyone aged nought to 50 as a single group, yet this is exactly The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions what we do for people aged 50 to 70, 80, 90, 100 or even (Steve Webb): I am listening to the hon. Lady with great beyond. Our discussions and debates about older people interest and I congratulate her on her role. Does she tend to be based on one image or stereotype, usually think that because for 13 years the previous Government that of a very elderly person, frequently frail or dependent did not have someone in this role, they failed older and in need of care and support. The need to develop a people? better, fairer care system of care is a huge challenge and one that I will return to later, but the reality is that most Liz Kendall: I think we made big improvements for people in their 50s and 60s are not frail or dependent older people, but far more needs to be done. One of the and they want never to be so. Rightly, many do not biggest challenges—transforming the care system for regard themselves as old at all—my mum and dad older people—requires action across Government. It is certainly do not. Many older people are still in paid not something that a Minister for older people could do work, and local businesses and the economy benefit on their own. They would need the Treasury, No. 10, hugely from their skills, experience and incomes. They the Department for Work and Pensions and other play a part in their local community, in voluntary Departments to be closely involved. It is a matter of groups or as councillors, and they help with local public having someone who can help to co-ordinate action services and in churches and faith groups. They also across Government and provide a stronger voice at the help to look after their grandchildren, and sometimes Cabinet level. That is the role a Minister for older their own elderly parents; an increasing number do both. people would perform. 549 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 550

Let us consider some of the other areas in which we Preventive services have all but disappeared in many need to make sure that older people’s needs and concerns areas. Fewer older people get free care; more end up are heard. Take education policy, which some might not having to go into hospital, or are unnecessarily stuck in think would be relevant. We need to understand that as hospital or more expensive residential care. Charges are people live longer and need to work for longer, lifelong increasing across the country and vary hugely depending learning is essential to help them to develop new and on where people live. It is not just older people who are different skills. In family-friendly working, we need suffering, but their families. Carers suffer ill health and to understand that a quarter of all grandparents— some have to give up work because the right services are 3.5 million in total—are still working as well as helping not available. There are costs to the taxpayer if they are to look after their grandchildren. not in work and contributing financially. There are also Several hon. Members have mentioned housing policy. increased benefit bills. We must ensure that there is a range of good-quality The fundamental problem, and another reason why options for people as they get older, so that they are not a Minister for older people is important, is that our given a choice between living in their own home or a welfare state was established in a very different age. In care home; there should be various stages in between. 1948, average life expectancy was 66 for men and 71 for Transport policy is also very important. I am sure that women; now, it is more than 78 for men and 82 for many hon. Members find that bus services are a big women. Some health conditions that are now common issue in their constituency. Making sure that services are amongst older people, such as dementia, were almost linked up is a big challenge. Our energy policy must also unknown back then, and many disabled children died at take into account the needs of older people, many of a young age. Social expectations were very different. whom have very high energy and heating bills, particularly Disabled adults had fewer rights, and people automatically if they have long-term health conditions. assumed that women would stay at home to care for Having a Minister for older people in Cabinet would their families. help to ensure that all Departments were more aware of the issues and concerns I have raised, but the final and Dr Poulter: Will the hon. Lady give way? most important reason why we need the role is that, as a society and a country, we need to face up to the major Liz Kendall: I have a little more to get through, but economic and social challenges of demographic change. I will take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. That is a key issue behind Grey Pride’s campaign and is highlighted in the motion. Many hon. Members have Dr Poulter: I am going to be supportive. The hon. spoken about pensions, and I am sure the Minister will Lady is making some good points. Does she agree that speak about them too, but I will focus on care and not only the welfare state was set up for a previous era, support. but also the NHS? It is a crisis-management system That must be one of top priorities for the Minister for built around acute hospitals, and the challenge has to be older people because it is one of the biggest challenges to deliver more care in the community. facing Britain today. That is why one of the options would be to have the Minister for older people in the Liz Kendall: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I meant Department of Health, because the key to transforming welfare state in its broadest sense, including the NHS. the care system is in transforming the NHS. Social care That is the big challenge for us. We have to make a budgets have been under increasing pressure for many fundamental shift in the focus of services—out of hospitals, years, but the care system has now reached breaking into the community and towards prevention and early point. Adult social care makes up around 40% of local intervention to help keep people as fit and healthy as council budgets—up to 60% in some areas—and it is possible for as long as possible. Services need to be their biggest discretionary spend. When the Government more joined up and personalised to meet individual are cutting local council budgets by a third, it is inevitable needs. that services for older people will suffer. Figures from The previous Government made big improvements. the Department for Communities and Local Government We backed integrated care, including care trusts such as show that more than £1 billion has been cut from local the one I recently visited in Torbay, which has made council budgets for older people’s social care since the huge progress. We invested £230 million in extra care coalition Government came to power. The result is that housing projects, which have made a big difference in councils are raising their eligibility criteria: 80% now older people’s health and physical condition, and we provide care only for those with substantial or critical introduced personal budgets and direct payments. I needs, up from 50% only four years ago. hope that this Government will build on many of those developments in their long awaited White Paper, but we Margot James: Does the hon. Lady not accept that shall not be able to tackle the care crisis unless we the phenomenon of councils changing their eligibility reform care funding. criteria to restrict care to critical level started way Several Members have talked about the Dilnot before the cuts to local government budgets? commission, which represents the best opportunity in a generation to reform the way care is funded. It is an Liz Kendall: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. opportunity that politicians in all parties must grasp I did say that social care budgets had been under with both hands. We tried to get cross-party agreement increasing pressure for many years, but local councils on social care funding at the last election. We did not are now facing cuts of a third in their overall budget. succeed, but we are determined to try again now. That is Adult social care is their biggest discretionary spend, so why my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition they face real challenges and are moving their criteria initiated cross-party talks when Dilnot’s recommendations from modest to only substantial and critical need. were published. 551 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 552

[Liz Kendall] of working age. The benefits of those above pension age were protected, almost exclusively. As we have heard I am concerned about the fact that the Government from a number of hon. Members, crucially, the basic have backtracked on their promise to legislate in this state pension has been enhanced through the restoration parliamentary Session for new legal and social frameworks of the earnings link and the triple lock. I assure hon. for social care. The Queen’s Speech included only a Members in all parts of the House that the political draft Bill on reforming social care law. The Opposition priorities of pensioners and older people more broadly—as want legislation on a new system for funding social care we all know, they are the people who turn out and in this Parliament, and we are pressing for that in the vote—are very much in the Government’s mind at all cross-party talks, but that can only come about if there times. is commitment at the highest level—not just from a My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North Minister or shadow Minister for older people, but from suggested that there had been some discussion about No. 10, No. 11 and other members of the Cabinet. who should reply to the debate, and she is correct. Part Our ageing population is something that we should of the reason is that so many Ministers have a keen celebrate. Older people make a huge contribution to interest in the concerns of older people. There were their families and our society; I see that in my constituents’ many potential candidates, but I fought them off. I want lives, and in mine—as often as I get to see my parents. to respond to some of her particular points, and in However, our society has barely begun to understand doing so, reassure my hon. Friend the Member for the implications of this vast demographic change. A Southend West (Mr Amess), who was sceptical—I was Minister for older people would make a big difference, shocked by this—that there is still joined-up government but it is incumbent on all politicians—local and national— when it comes to older people. As I run through my across the spectrum to understand that we must work response to some of the concerns of my hon. Friend the together to deliver a better, more dignified life for Member for Portsmouth North, I hope that it will be people, so that they can live a long, fulfilling life, and apparent that I am giving a litany of examples of have more life to their years, as well as more years to joined-up government. their life. My hon. Friend raised the very important issue of loneliness. A number of people mentioned nobody visiting 5.41 pm the care home, but everyone coming to the funeral for The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions the reading of the will. That was a powerful point. (Steve Webb): There were just eight contributions—but There is a powerful cross-departmental partnership between eight high-quality ones, from Members on both sides of the DWP and the Department of Health. The Minister the Chamber—to this debate on an important issue. of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the The unanimous view of all those who took part was Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), the that we should congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Minister responsible for care services, has pioneered for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), who introduced work on loneliness. We have worked with the Campaign the topic in a very effective way. I also congratulate her to End Loneliness. There was a summit on 15 March on the work of the all-party group on ageing and older that I attended, which my hon. Friend chaired, on how people, which she chairs, and I congratulate the Backbench Government and local government can act effectively Business Committee—some of its eminent members are on loneliness. Something that has emerged from it is the here today—on making sure that we had the time to importance of equipment for local authorities that want discuss the crucial issue of how we best ensure that to tackle loneliness in their area, including “how to” older people have an effective political voice. That would guides, websites and so on. We take the issue very be the united perspective. seriously: too often, we talk about care, transport, health or pensions, but the fundamental issue of whether We have heard diverse views. We heard a suggestion someone sees anyone from day to day and whether that the Minister for older people should be an additional anyone cares whether they are there or not is a vital one, role for the Home Secretary. We heard it suggested that and I am grateful to all the hon. Members who mentioned it should be the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, or it. perhaps another Cabinet Minister. My hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) Something that has come out of our work is the suggested that the Government were doing pretty well age action alliance, which brings together more than without a Minister for older people, although the post 200 organisations, including Government Departments, might be a welcome addition. private sector bodies, charities and voluntary groups. I assure the House, from my now extensive experience— The alliance operates under the umbrella of Age UK, two years—in government, that the idea that the views and is supported by the Department for Work and and priorities of older people are not in every room, in Pensions. It tackles a range of issues affecting older every discussion, is not something that I have ever people in a joined-up way across sectors. Loneliness is encountered. To give just one example, the Department one of the key themes that it is looking at. for Work and Pensions had to make some very difficult My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North decisions as part of the comprehensive spending review, mentioned taxation and older people. Let me say on the but if we look at the areas where savings were made—at record that if tax and national insurance were brought the reduction in the growth in the budget for disability together in a single operation, national insurance would living allowance for people of working age; at the local not, I can assure her, be applied to pensions. There is no housing allowance; at the employment and support proposal to bring pensioners into that higher combined allowance; at child benefit, tax credit, and social housing; tax rate. In an example of joint working, the DWP and and at the benefits cap—virtually without exception, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs are working together those changes apply wholly or predominantly to those on the recommendations from the Office of Tax 553 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 554

Simplification. I can assure her that, as Pensions Minister, medicines management in care and nursing homes is I will scrutinise exceptionally closely any suggestion important, which is why early last year, the Department that tax might be withdrawn at source from the state of Health agreed to fund a project to improve medicines pension. management in residential care. The project is driven by My hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for the sector and led by the national care forum. The goal Central Suffolk and North Ipswich raised the abolition is to design and test a set of practical tools to help of the default retirement age, and the position of older care-home staff, doctors, pharmacists and nurses to workers more generally. As I mentioned in oral questions provide safer care and reduce the incidence of medication this morning, that is something of which the coalition errors and what are known euphemistically as “near Government can be resolutely proud. There were years misses” in care and nursing homes. The hon. Gentleman of talk about abolishing mandatory or forced retirement, is right to raise that issue, which the Government take but we have done something about it. There is still more seriously. to be done: employer attitudes to older people still need Coming back to the point made by my hon. Friend work, which is why the DWP and the Department for the Member for Stourbridge about excess winter deaths, Business, Innovation and Skills work jointly on that. In she will be aware that in December 2011 the Department fact, BIS-led legislation has been introduced. We have of Health published a cold weather plan for England worked with employers and business organisations and identified up to £20 million for 2011-12 to support on the “Age Positive” initiative to challenge outdated local authorities to reduce levels of deaths and morbidity assumptions about older workers and to encourage during cold weather. It is designed so that local government improvements in the employment and retention of older —again, a partnership approach—working with voluntary workers as part of a mixed-age work force. and community sector partners can address the risk Older workers are good business. I said this morning factors of cold weather for vulnerable older people. I in the House that research evidence from McDonalds accept my hon. Friend’s point that we need to do more has found that McDonalds restaurants that employ work on the issue. over-60s have on average higher customer satisfaction We heard some powerful contributions, including a than those that do not do so. Some people might find very moving one from the hon. Member for Bolton that surprising, but it is an example of enlightened West (Julie Hilling). It sounds as though her mother is employers who get it, and who do well as a result. We rather well known. My hon. Friend the Member for shall certainly spread the word. Southend West mentioned that he had met her on the My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North Terrace, on an outing to see the flotilla, as I understand raised the issue of someone who goes into a care home it, so she is becoming quite a celebrity. The hon. Lady and wants to be able to get something from the value spoke powerfully about both the excellence and, shall of their home. I think she referred to the Redbridge we say, the lack of excellence in the care that her mother “FreeSpace” pilot, and spoke about it very positively. had received. There is indeed too much variability in the I can assure her that my hon. Friend the Minister for quality of care. The hon. Lady also talked, rightly, about Housing and Local Government has encouraged other wrong attitudes to older people, which others mentioned local authorities to look seriously at that innovative as well. That is something we need to challenge, which project, and is trying to promote it, as she suggests. we are trying to do in Government. My hon. Friend suggested that we do more to My hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and communicate with people and that it was important to North Ipswich mentioned Age UK’s five tests for a piggyback messages. I agree, which is why the DWP is Government taking office, and he was generous enough working with the Department of Energy and Climate to point to a number of things that the Government Change on a pilot scheme to promote the green deal. have already delivered on and others on which we are When we write to people about winter fuel payments, trying to make further progress. My hon. Friend the we take a target sample of 1.2 million letters, and those Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul recipients will receive a separate flyer in the envelope Maynard) mentioned that it was important that what promoting the green deal to encourage them to take up happens is not fluffy or soggy. I want to assure him that energy efficiency schemes. My hon. Friend the Member there is a lot of unfluffy and unsoggy work going on, for Stourbridge (Margot James) mentioned excess winter and to highlight the UK Advisory Forum on Ageing, deaths which, she is absolutely right, remain a scandal. which was set up just before the last election. It meets It is not so much about giving people an extra pound to quarterly. I attend every meeting. The Minister of State, pay an exorbitant fuel bill but about trying to make sure my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam that their home is properly insulated. She will know, as I who has responsibility for care services, is a regular do, that in Scandinavia, excess winter deaths are almost attender as well. unknown, not because it is warmer—it obviously is We co-chair the forum and it is attended by about not—but because people have properly insulated homes. 30 representatives of advisory forums for older people We must make sure that there is more action across from the regions of England, the Welsh Commissioner, government on that issue. the Northern Ireland Commissioner, organisations that The hon. Member for Manchester Central (Tony are not great fans of the Government, such as the Lloyd) raised an important issue, and mentioned the National Pensioners Convention, Age UK and others. very recent report on hospital care and the management We come face to face with these groups once a quarter. I of medicines. His home city is recognised as a World have attended every meeting since the election, and that Health Organisation centre of excellence for the way in group sets its own agenda and decides what it wants to which it approaches older people—he will be aware talk about. One possible fruit of this debate might be of that—and that is something that has come out of that that work, which has been extremely effective, cross-government working. He is right that the issue of might be expanded and might bring in other Government 555 Minister for Older People28 JUNE 2012 Minister for Older People 556

[Steve Webb] I welcome the terms of the motion, which proposes that the Government should consider—we certainly Departments more systematically and perhaps other should—whether that role would best be done by a Ministers. That might be a response to some of the Cabinet Minister with additional responsibilities. My concerns that have been expressed. proposition is that one response might be for the UK I should mention that the Home Office is finally—in Advisory Forum on Ageing to have a more cross- the sense that these things have been talked about for government role. There are plenty more things we could many years—bringing forward legislation to ban do, but I stress that there are plenty of cross-government discrimination in goods and services for older people, and co-ordinated things already being done. I hope that which is long overdue and very welcome. I have been able to give the House some reassurance on that point. I was interested to see that Age UK had commented ahead of our debate. Its position on the proposal for a I can confirm that the Government are very happy to Cabinet Minister with separate responsibility was, perhaps, support the motion and look forward to further discussions, more nuanced than we might have expected. Although because I have a feeling that, if we do not make sure Age UK obviously welcomed the debate, it said that the that older people have a proper voice right at the heart appointment of a Minister would not be a panacea, and at the top of Government, my hon. Friend the which I do not think anybody suggested. It also suggested Member for Portsmouth North will not let us hear the that it might create risks as well as opportunities. For last of it. example, it says that there is the potential that other Departments might decide that they are no longer responsible for thinking about older people. It says that 5.55 pm there is a further potential risk of confusion over the Penny Mordaunt: I want to thank all Members who responsibilities of the Minister for older people vis-à-vis have taken part in this afternoon’s debate. I know that those of other Ministers. the Thursday afternoon shift is a tough one, so their I was interested to hear my Labour shadow, the hon. constituents can be in no doubt about the importance Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), say that the they place on the issue or their commitment to improving important issues all related to care, and that what we the lives of older people and the services we provide need is a Minister in Cabinet responsible for those issues. to them. The Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, who I am pleased has been able to The challenges we have discussed are great, but I am join us at this point in the debate, is doing an excellent very encouraged by the breadth of support across the job. We do not need two Ministers doing the same job. House and the quality of contributions that have been The hon. Lady said that the issues needed to be discussed made this afternoon. I thank the shadow Minister and at the highest level in Government. I can absolutely give the Minister for their contributions. There is good work her the assurance that on a regular basis the very issues going on in Government and in all sorts of organisations that she identifies are discussed round the Cabinet table across the country. The Department for Work and with the principal players of the Government. Pensions, in particular, is doing some very interesting things and has made great progress. I hope that the Minister will forgive us if we are being greedy, but we Liz Kendall: What I said was that, although a Minister want more, and I was pleased to hear about his plans for older people would make a big difference, responsibility for the future. must lie at the highest levels of Government—with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and other members of My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West the Cabinet. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman put that (Mr Amess) told us that he has been here before, and I on the record. am not so naive as to think that we will have a Minister for older people in post by tomorrow, whether that is a Steve Webb: I am sure the House would expect the stand-alone post or a role attached to a Cabinet post, Prime Minister to take a very close interest in these but I will be greatly comforted in my disappointment matters. if the Minister takes up the issues we have raised this Age UK says that a weak and ineffective post of afternoon, as I am sure he will, and continues to improve Minister for older people could do more harm than good. cross-government working for the benefit of older None of my ministerial colleagues are weak or ineffective, people. so that is not something we need to worry about. It is Finally, I would like once again to thank Anchor and clear that all Cabinet Ministers, even the Chief Secretary, the Grey Pride campaign for their achievements, especially have a pretty full inbox at present. It was generous of all those care home residents who signed the petition. my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North to The objective was to have a debate in the Chamber, give him an extra role. I will have a chat to him about it. which we have done, but they have also started a debate The worry would be that if an additional role is given to outside the Chamber and I am sure that good will come an already stretched Minister, either it becomes marginal of it. and is not done properly, or it ends up being duplicated. Question put and agreed to. That is the challenge for us. Resolved, Responding on behalf of the Government to this important debate, I very much welcome the terms in That this House notes the concerns of the Grey Pride campaign; and calls on the Government to consider appointing a member of which the whole debate has been conducted. We are the Cabinet to be the Minister for Older People, to give a political united in the view that older people need a proper voice voice to the older generation, to oversee the co-ordination of right at the heart and right at the top of Government. services which affect older people, and to focus on tackling the We need to think very hard about how we deliver that. social and economic challenges of demographic change. 557 28 JUNE 2012 558

Business without Debate Young Offender Institutions (Speech and Language Therapy) DRAFT ENHANCED TERRORISM PREVENTION Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House AND INVESTIGATION MEASURES BILL (JOINT do now adjourn.—(Bill Wiggin.) COMMITTEE) Resolved, 5.58 pm That this House concurs with the Lords Message of 28 May, that it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): be appointed to consider and report on the draft Enhanced I am grateful to the House for the opportunity to speak Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill presented today on this important topic and thank many hon. to both Houses on 1 September 2011 (Cm. 8166). Members for their supportive comments this week and Ordered, for sharing their own perspectives. I wish to raise several points in my contribution, which I hope the Minister That a Select Committee of six Members be appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords to consider the draft will be able to address. If he cannot answer today, I Enhanced Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill would be grateful if he would ensure that he writes to (Cm. 8166). me with answers or, if the questions relate to areas that That the Committee should report on the draft Bill by are not his direct responsibility, agrees to forward them 9 November 2012. to the Minister responsible. That the Committee shall have power— This debate was triggered by my recent visit to Feltham (i) to send for persons, papers and records; young offender institution and, indeed, my interest in (ii) to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; youth justice as a member of the Justice Committee. (iii) to report from time to time; Speech, language and communications needs have become an increasing area of policy focus. An inability to (iv) to appoint specialist advisers; communicate effectively has a tremendous impact on (v) to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom; the ability to learn, hold down a job and have a stable and family life. I am pleased that the all-party group on speech That Mr Bob Ainsworth, Nicola Blackwood, Mike and language difficulties, which was convened by my Crockart, Chris Evans, Rebecca Harris and Jesse Norman hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint be members of the Committee.—(Sir George Young.) Davies), is undertaking an inquiry into the links between SLCN and social disadvantage. The Marmot review of health inequalities in 2010 identified communications skills as being necessary for school readiness, and a Department for Education research report last year showed a clear association between social disadvantage and SLCN among primary school children. It stated: “More of the low attainers were boys, more were eligible for free school meals and more had English as an additional language.” Speech, language and communication needs are characterised by difficulties in understanding complex language, in explaining oneself clearly and logically and in responding appropriately to specific social settings. The Bercow report described those needs as including “difficulties with fluency, forming sounds and words, formulating sentences, understanding what others say and using language socially.”

Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): The hon. Lady mentions the impact of many forms of communication delay. Does she agree that one of the most dangerous forms is when young offenders, upon release, do not understand the terms of their release and are called back to prison because they do not understand what they cannot do, such as cross a road to reach a grandmother, for example? Does she agree also that that is why speech therapy is so important in our young offender institutions—to make sure that individuals understand what is happening to them?

Seema Malhotra: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. He makes an important point about the inability to understand what is going on in the justice system through an inability sometimes to read and, certainly, to understand what is being said. An important part of the argument is that we need better speech and language therapy services in order to reduce reoffending. 559 Young Offender Institutions (Speech 28 JUNE 2012 Young Offender Institutions (Speech 560 and Language Therapy) and Language Therapy) [Seema Malhotra] accept some speech and language support, and within a matter of weeks he was becoming a more confident Statistics from the Royal College of Speech and Language speaker, with an almost instant change in attitude to Therapists show that 10% of school-aged children and turning his life around. An ability to communicate 1% of adults in the general UK population have speech, better has been increasingly associated with reduced language and communication needs, but that 55% of violent behaviour of young offenders, and that was children in deprived areas are affected by such needs. indeed the case with this young man. They suffer from a “word gap” of an estimated 30 million We know that it works to invest in communication skills words when compared with children in wealthier and in the training of staff and officers in the justice households, and that limits their ability to use language system. The Royal College of Speech and Language to communicate effectively. Therapists’ briefing on youth crime of June 2012 quotes It is estimated that more than 60% of young offenders statistics from Red Bank secure children’s home in Liverpool. have speech, language and communication needs, and Five out of seven young offenders in one section had there is evidence of a vicious circle—of deprivation challenging behaviour. Staff were involved in physically leading to reduced language development, leading in restraining these young offenders on two to three occasions turn to communication difficulties. Children with speech per day. After communication training and guidance and language difficulties are more likely to become from the speech and language therapist, staff were able frustrated at school, to play truant and to get involved to reduce the number of restraints to two per week. The with crime. Once they are involved, they struggle with Communication Trusthas published in its booklet, “Sentence the formalities of courts and of police interviews, and Trouble”, some useful suggestions about how youth they come out worse because of it. justice professionals can positively interact with young Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I, like my hon. people with speech, language and communication needs. Friend, have visited young people with communication It identifies an awareness and training gap in the youth disabilities in prison; I did so in Park prison, near justice work force, who are much better prepared to deal Bridgend. Does she agree that it is essential to recognise with mental health issues and substance abuse than with as early as possible, at the point when young people speech and language difficulties. enter the criminal justice system, whether they have I am concerned that dealing with the speech, language communication difficulties? Does she agree further that and communications needs of young offenders is falling the Asset tool should be updated so that needs can be through the cracks between the Departments for Education, identified without delay and the right help delivered? Health and Justice. It is probable that many young people in prison may not have been there had the Seema Malhotra: I thank my hon. Friend for his education system or health system intervened effectively comment. He makes an important point about early earlier in their life. In 2010, research with therapists identification within the justice system—particularly if conducted by the royal college in four areas of the somebody’s needs have been missed earlier in life—in country suggested that over 90% of young offenders order to help an individual to facilitate the rehabilitation with communication difficulties had not been known to that we hope is possible for them. speech and language therapy services prior to their There is an important debate about the standards of contact with the criminal justice system. Yet the benefits provision in the education system, and I shall speak of these services are clear in improving justice outcomes about that tomorrow at an excellent training conference and reducing reoffending. It is feared that current education on developing oracy and literacy, organised by Hounslow and rehabilitation measures in prison require a higher Language Service in my constituency. level of language comprehension than many young My concern in this debate, however, is about the offenders possess. However, current provision of these access to speech, language and communication needs services in young offender institutes is limited and patchy. assessment and services once young people have reached Of the 21 young offender institutes, only Feltham has a prison. When I visited Feltham young offenders institution full-time speech and language therapist, while four others— recently, I met a 15-year-old boy who has been receiving Hindley, Wetherby, Polmont and Cornton—provide some speech and language therapy, and learning a few speech support on one to three days a week. exercises had already made him more confident in speaking There have been moves to make this case and improve to his family on the phone—with a clear impact on his provision in the past. In 2006, Lord Ramsbotham, personal confidence. formerly Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons, said The boy’s vocabulary was like that of a child, but this in a Lords debate: is not so surprising when we discover that 35% of “in all the years I have been looking at prisons and the treatment offenders have speaking and listening skills below national of offenders, I have never found anything so capable of doing so curriculum level 1, equivalent to those of a five-year-old. much for so many people at so little cost as the work that speech A further 26% of offenders are estimated to have national and language therapists carry out.”—[Official Report, House of curriculum level 2 speaking and language skills, which Lords, 27 October 2006; Vol. 685, c. 1447.] compare to those of an average seven-year-old. The Bercow report recommended that the youth crime I also heard the story of a young man who was action plan and work on young offenders’ health should recently at Feltham. He had a lisp, and when he was consider how best to address the communication needs three his GP had told his parents that this was because of young people in the criminal justice system, including he had a small tongue and nothing could be done. He those in custody. The youth crime action plan of 2008, proceeded to do poorly at school. He was laughed at, produced under the previous Government, included including by his own family; his mother would force recognition of the Bercow review’s recommendations. him to speak when friends came round as a source of However, I am not certain whether any action has yet entertainment. When in prison, this young man came to been taken by this Government, nor has the Under- 561 Young Offender Institutions (Speech 28 JUNE 2012 Young Offender Institutions (Speech 562 and Language Therapy) and Language Therapy) Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for There have been a number of studies, mostly small-scale Reigate (Mr Blunt), who is responsible for youth justice, studies, on the prevalence of speech, language and commented on speech and language therapy. communication needs. They place the prevalence of The royal college has called for at least one full-time such needs in custodial settings at anything between specialist in every young offender institute. The Prison 60% and 90%. One recent study found the 60% of Reform Trust supports this recommendation, and its young offenders screened on entry to custody had speech, report, “No One Knows”, recommended that language or communication needs. As has been said, “prison healthcare should have ready access to” among the general population the figure stands at 1%, learning disability expertise and although there are regional and local variations. “speech and language therapy.” Much attention has been given to these issues over Arguably, on the current evidence, there is a strong recent years. The hon. Lady made reference to Mr Speaker’s economic case for this. Secure children’s homes and work on behalf of the last Government. The coalition training centres cost about £200,000 a year, while placement Government are taking forward a number of the actions in a young offender institute costs £60,000 a year. This, in the Bercow review. First, we had the Green Paper on the House may be interested to hear, is twice the cost of special educational needs and disability, and the follow-up a year at Eton, which is £30,981. I thank the Minister report that was published recently. Secondly, there have for providing these up-to-date figures following my been pathfinder pilots to develop unified plans covering written question last week—excluding the Eton figure, health, education and care needs, supported by the use of course, which were obtained from Eton’s website. In of personal budgets. Thirdly, we have had the review comparison, a full-time speech and language therapist of the early years foundation stage. The Department of employed under NHS “Agenda for Change” band 7 Health is working closely with the Department for costs £30,460 a year—marginally less than a year at Education to join up health and care, sorting out one of Eton. The funding of speech therapy is surely cost-effective, the oft-stated criticisms of SEN provision for so many compassionate and necessary for an effective and intelligent years. youth justice system. I assure the House that speech and language therapy To conclude, I would be grateful if the Minister updated is available to young people, and in particular to those the House on a number of matters. First, what is the in the custodial estate. Currently, it is commissioned in Government’s policy on the provision of speech and the custodial estate through primary care trusts. It is language therapy in young offender institutions, and on meant to be commissioned according to local need. the call for there to be at least one full-time speech and That means that in-house services are provided in some language therapist at every institution? Secondly, will he larger young offender institutions—not just in Feltham, clarify which Department is accountable for the provision but in Wetherby and Hindley. I urge the hon. Lady to of speech and language therapy in young offender look at the provision in those two other institutions. institutions, and how the Department for Education, From next April, the responsibility for commissioning the Department of Health and the Ministry of Justice prisoner health will move from primary care trusts, as work together on this issue? Thirdly, is it true that they are abolished, to the new NHS Commissioning Asset, the assessment tool used by police and the justice Board. That will help to ensure that people with health system, does not include a section that enables staff needs in custodial settings receive care comparable with accurately to identify speech, language and communication that received by those in the wider NHS. Offender health needs? Fourthly, what assessment of speech, language lead commissioners will act for the board and determine and communication needs takes place when a young the right level of service to be provided to meet the offender is sentenced to prison? Fifthly, is the existing identified needs within the prisoner population. They funding secure and are there plans to increase the will work at local level with health and wellbeing boards, provision in young offender institutions? Finally, how children’s services, and police and crime commissioners. do Ministers currently measure and review the effectiveness of such services? Nick Smith: May I press the Minister? How many I thank the House for the opportunity to speak on young people’s custodial settings have speech and language this topic today. therapists working at them? Do some or all settings have them? 6.10 pm The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Paul Burstow: The hon. Gentleman will have heard Burstow): I congratulate the hon. Member for Feltham me say that there is specific in-house provision at three and Heston (Seema Malhotra) on securing the debate settings, but there will also be referrals through NHS and on setting out the issues so clearly. I note that, pathways for speech and language services, meaning curiously, my noble Friend Lord Addington is debating that any young person in need of speech and language this matter with Ministers in the other place. It is clearly therapy should have access to it. That is one of the of importance to parliamentarians in both Houses. The requirements of the commission—its responsibility is work of the all-party parliamentary group on speech commissioning appropriate services to meet identified and language difficulties underscores that point. needs. I shall come to the identification of needs in a It is important to recognise that speech, language and moment. communication difficulties are part of a complex and Speech, language and communications needs are just multi-layered range of needs that young people between one part of an often complex picture. It is important the ages of 15 and 21 may have, particularly those within that we acknowledge that there are complex interactions our criminal justice system. I understand the concerns with, for example, mental health problems, learning about speech and language therapy that the hon. Lady disabilities, substance misuse and alcohol problems. has raised and will try to address them. Therefore, psychiatry, psychology, community psychiatric 563 Young Offender Institutions (Speech 28 JUNE 2012 Young Offender Institutions (Speech 564 and Language Therapy) and Language Therapy) [Paul Burstow] Paul Burstow: That allows me to talk about Asset and what we are dong. Asset is a tool used by the criminal nursing, psychotherapy, and occupational and creative justice system to risk-assess reoffending, whereas we are therapy can all play a valuable part—a bigger part in introducing a comprehensive health assessment tool some cases—in treating and meeting the needs of young that incorporates questions on speech, language and offenders. communication needs and is designed better to meet the The hon. Lady was right to highlight the contribution complex range of needs of children and young people that speech and language therapies make not just in in the secure estate. I will send further details about that direct services, but in supporting colleagues in a multi- to the hon. Lady, but in a way the role of the NHS in disciplinary team to ensure they have the necessary our prison service is better supported through the second skills to provide the right communications support and tool and the information systems that support an individual so on. on their journey through the criminal justice system. Adopting a personalised approach is at the core of We also need to go further back up the criminal that. The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys justice pathway. The Department is expanding the liaison (Paul Maynard) rightly said that we need to ensure that and diversion services for all ages, and that includes people have the communications skills and understanding tailored support for children and young people and both when they are in prison or youth offending services appropriate referrals for those with speech, language and and when they are released. That was an important communications needs. Even further back up the criminal point. justice pathway is our programme to support troubled The hon. Lady spoke powerfully of her visit to Feltham families, which tries to break the very cycles that the and the conversations she had with the 15-year-old lad hon. Lady talked about—of school absenteeism, crime about his experience of speech and language therapy—he and antisocial behaviour—and which can exacerbate other said it gave him more confidence. That is another reason presenting problems and lead to greater communications why such therapy is an important component of the difficulties. right health interventions to meet identified needs. In conclusion, this has been an important debate. The hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) Speech and language therapy is a highly valued intervention, said in an intervention that early intervention is relevant and the Government recognise the contribution it can as well as the change in commissioning responsibilities. make to the quality of life of young people and the Early intervention is a key part of the Government’s potential for reduced reoffending as a consequence. It is approach. Continuity of care and treatment is key. The clearly necessary that people in the custodial service average period of detention for a young offender is very and in contact with the criminal justice system can be short—80 days, often including remand. Custody therefore referred and have access to those services. However, provides opportunities for health assessment and for speech, language and communications difficulties are identifying problems and needs, after which referrals just one part of a complex picture of needs, which is can be made. It is therefore important that we have why we are ensuring that a more holistic approach is systems that allow those follow-ups to take place. It was taken that assesses the range of needs that an individual right that the previous Government decided that the presents when they enter the custodial estate. commissioning of prison health services should be an NHS responsibility, enabling those systems to be properly As a consequence, we have threaded right through joined up, and this Government have maintained that. the criminal justice pathway a more personalised mix of treatment and therapy that meets those individual needs. We need to look right across the whole criminal That is our goal. These changes build on the important justice pathway to provide health interventions that are reform of commissioning, using the strength of a national appropriate to the individual presenting needs. In 2010-11 commissioning board leading on commissioning prisoner there were 2,040 10 to 17-year-olds in the secure estate health services and working with local partners to make at any one time on average. Sometimes, four times as the necessary connections with local services. That is many were on remand or awaiting sentence to custody, how we will improve the quality of life, care and treatment and 85,300 were being supervised by youth offending for young people in our custodial estate. I shall write to teams. There is a similar pattern in the 18 to 20 age the hon. Lady with the details she requested. group. Question put and agreed to. Seema Malhotra: It is important to talk about action across the justice system and recording and assessing, but where will that information be held, so that the records 6.22 pm are kept and maintained as a person passes through the justice system? House adjourned. 139WH 28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 140WH

perspective, national income maximisation requires the Westminster Hall best deployment of resources. As a nation, we cannot afford to have talent going to waste and not providing Thursday 28 June 2012 all it can. Studies suggest that reaching international benchmarks [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] on social mobility could be worth around £150 billion per annum on national income, or the equivalent of a BACKBENCH BUSINESS one-off increase in gross domestic product of 4%. Today, we are far away from those benchmarks. There are Social Mobility various studies comparing social mobility in Britain Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting with other countries with liberal democracies and advanced be now adjourned.—(Stephen Crabb) economies. In those studies, we are near or very near the bottom of the list. What is worse and more depressing is 2.30 pm that that has not improved. Today’s 40-somethings, Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I am sure the such as me, have shown less mobility on average than world would be a very interesting place if you were today’s 50-somethings. In an advanced country such as the Prime Minister, Mr Crabb. To start our interesting ours, we would expect social mobility to be improving debate this afternoon, I call Damian Hinds. every year, even if it was difficult to catch up. Social mobility is not one subject, but three, and we Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): It is a pleasure, tried to bring that out in our report. If two people Mr Hollobone, to see you in the Chair. I thank the discuss social mobility, they may leave thinking that Backbench Business Committee for granting time for they had agreed, and that the other person was talking this debate on a subject that matters a great deal to about the same thing, but it often turns out that they many hon. Members—and, indeed, brought many hon. were talking about two completely different aspects. Members into politics, directly or indirectly. The three subjects are three degrees of intensity, or There are many aspects to social mobility, and I am three types of challenge. sure that hon. Members will pursue different angles. I At one end is the “breaking out” category of people want to focus on some of the material in the report of who are trapped in poverty or difficult circumstances the all-party group on social mobility, “Seven Key for one reason or another, and need help to access Truths on Social Mobility”. We formed the group a mainstream society and opportunities. At the other end year ago, and I thank the many hon. Members and of the spectrum is the category, “stars to shine”, with outside organisations that have come to our sessions outstanding talent that we must ensure fulfils its potential. and contributed to the debate. In the middle is everyone else, and they are the ones who I also thank the group’s officers, particularly the right are often forgotten. They are the 60%, 70% or 80% of hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), my the population who are neither severely disadvantaged hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood nor outstandingly talented, and they are the greatest (Eric Ollerenshaw), who is detained in the Finance Bill number of people. Committee, and the noble Lady, Baroness Tyler. She is not taking part in this debate, for obvious reasons, but I To bring those categories to life a little, I will explain am pleased to see that she is here. I also thank the how they interact with different policy issues. With Prince’s Trust, which provides great support to our early years and the moving on up category, which group. includes the vast majority of children, early-years settings and their quality, and general parenting programmes, We did not seek to carry out primary research, or to are relevant. But to address the problems in the breaking espouse a load of opinions, but to synthesise the material, out group requires a lot more action, starting with data, statistics and intelligence on social mobility. We high-intensity parenting support programmes, and, in always knew that, coming as we do from different the most extreme cases, child protection. political traditions, it was exceedingly unlikely that we would end up agreeing on policy prescriptions, but we During the school years of the breaking out group, thought we could agree on what we disagree on, to children must be exposed to opportunities so that they focus the debate. have aspiration to fulfil their potential. Children in care Politicians sometimes know what needs to be done, have a particularly difficult time in the school system, but large challenges remain for implementation. However, and relatively poor levels of educational attainment. sometimes they do not know what needs to be done, Talking about grammar schools to that group is supremely and no one does. I want to present some of those irrelevant, but for a relatively small group, grammar challenges. Unlike in other debates, I will not shout out schools, selective education, assisted places and so on a list of demands for the Government, or ask to know are relevant. Those children are in the stars to shine about this and that. In many cases that is more of an category. acknowledgement of the gaps that exist and where, as a That is the horizontal axis and those are the different society and a political system, we need to build up the degrees of challenge. On the vertical axis, we have seven approach. key truths. Those are not my seven key truths, or those Social mobility clearly matters, and from an economist’s of the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles. They perspective, it matters in terms of both equity and emerged from the expert witnesses we heard from. One efficiency. To put that into better terminology, it matters may write one’s own list with a different emphasis, but for social justice and for economic growth. It is self-evident we have run our list past quite a lot of people, and no that every person should be able to achieve their potential one has said it is wrong, so we have some confidence and to become fulfilled, but from the economic growth that they really are seven key truths about social mobility. 141WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 142WH

[Damian Hinds] welcome the current Government’s refocusing of efforts within Sure Start on the neediest families. However, it First, the point of greatest leverage is what happens seems a little too neat to say that the gap has not between the ages of 0 and 3, right at the start of life. narrowed only because we have not reached the places That means primarily at home. Secondly, the cycle may where the need is greatest. We must also consider what be broken through education. Thirdly, the single most happens in early-years settings. The review of the early-years important controllable factor in education is the quality foundation stage is welcome, but we should not regard of teachers and teaching. Fourthly, what happens not the job as done. We need to have a constant feedback just at school, but after the school bell rings—in the loop of learning from what works best at all stages of evenings and at weekends and in the holidays—is relevant. education and care. Fifthly, university is the most important swing factor However, there is a bigger challenge yet, and that is of achievements later in life. Pre-18 attainment dictates the work force. Cathy Nutbrown’s recent report states: whether someone gets there, so pre-18 attainment is key. “It must be a cause for concern that early years courses are Sixthly, people should not give up, because it is possible often the easiest to enrol on and the courses that the students with to get back on the ladder and to go up it. Later the poorest academic records are sometimes steered towards.” pathways to mobility are possible as long as the will and I will not argue that nursery care should be yet another the support are there. Seventhly, personal resilience and “graduatised” profession, as some probably would, but emotional well-being are the missing link in the chain, we do have a work force challenge and one that it is too and permeate those different levels and life stages. easy to duck or ignore. We are talking about the care of I believe that the right hon. Member for Salford and our children. We know that the countries least marred Eccles will talk about what happens after the school bell by social immobility tend to be those that have invested rings, and about opportunities later in life. I will talk quite heavily in work force development at early-years briefly about the early years and what happens at school. level. I am a member of the Select Committee on Education, However, all that is comfort zone stuff compared and it is remarkable that whenever one talks to people with the really big challenge. Unless we are to accept in education, they always blame the stage before—employers that the age at which children go into a state care setting blame the colleges, universities blame the secondary schools, should get younger and younger and that the number of secondary schools blame the primary schools, and the children doing that should get bigger and bigger, eventually primary schools blame the nursery schools. It is sometimes we have to conclude that the point of greatest leverage—zero comic, because it can sometimes be predicted when that to three—happens mostly at home. That, of course, is sentence will come into the conversation. However, painfully difficult territory for the state. there is an element of truth in it, which is why we said We know the things that make the difference: a that the 0-3 life stage is the point of greatest leverage. healthy pregnancy, early attachment, a good diet, warm We have all seen the famous Leon Feinstein graph. It relationships, having books at home, being read to, shows, if children’s cognitive ability is measured in the spending time with the telly off and so on. We need to early years of life, that bright children from poor start by considering how to maximise the leverage from backgrounds are overtaken by less bright children from existing successful programmes. That involves health wealthy backgrounds and it is quite depressing. More visitors, whose numbers are currently being expanded, recently, there has been an acceptance that that analysis but also programmes such as Bookstart and voluntary has perhaps been a little over-egged and overused, but it organisations such as Home Start and the great work is not totally invalidated. The central message remains: that it does. we must nurture and support families with children My hon. Friend the Member for South when they are at a very young age in order for them to Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) may take part in reach their potential at primary school. I am talking the debate later and, if so, will probably talk about about children being able to access the curriculum, to parent-infant partnership programmes, such as OXPIP, read and so on. the Oxford Parent Infant Project, and NorPIP, the In that regard, we should welcome a number of things Northamptonshire Parent Infant Partnership, and some that the previous Government did and that the current of the great work that they do on early attachment. Government have done or are doing. I am thinking of I welcome the support from the Government for the Sure Start programme, the 12.5 hours of free care expansion of the family-nurse partnership programme. from the previous Government and, under the current That is a great evidence-based programme, although I Government, the keeping of the extension to 15 hours think that there some concerns in the field that the and, critically, the extension to disadvantaged two-year-olds. family-nurse partnership is based on the American—and However, there is something slightly depressing about confusingly named—nurse-family partnership. The family- all this. If we look at what I call “the Sure Start nurse partnership is almost the same as the nurse-family generation”, the millennium cohort—children born in partnership, but not quite. We must ensure that when 2000—we see that there has not been the narrowing of we have these evidence-based programmes, they are the gap between the rich and poor that, other things truly following the pure model. Again, as with early-years being equal, we would expect to see. That was one of settings, we need a constant feedback loop of learning—a the purposes of Sure Start in this country, as it was for repository for the knowledge of what works with these the Head Start programme—a remarkably similar programmes. That is why it is important to aspire to name—in the United States. something along the lines of the early intervention The standard explanation is that we are just not foundation recommended by the hon. Member for reaching the right families; we are not going to the Nottingham North (Mr Allen). places where the need is greatest. I praise certain Sure However, just finding successful programmes is not Start centres, which do outstanding outreach work, enough. Quite often, the most successful programmes including, by the way, in my own constituency. I also are, sadly, also the most costly, and quite often we have 143WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 144WH local programmes that work well on a small scale but some people, who would be outstanding teachers, from may not be scalable to cope with much greater case coming into the profession, but it probably also traps loads. Often, too, it is the third and fourth quintiles—the some people in the profession, once they have committed families who do not have advantages but do not have that time and money. In most other careers these days, severe disadvantages either—that get insufficient attention. people’s expectation is that they might do it for two We need affordable mass programmes that can address years, five years or 10 years, but not necessarily for and help very large numbers of families. The five a day 30 years. for child development programme recently recommended It is often said that no one forgets a great teacher, and by CentreForum is very interesting in that regard. that is true. Sadly, it is also true that most of us can also Although zero to three may be the point of greatest remember one or two pretty rubbish ones. As well as leverage, thankfully it is not the end of the story. At attracting the best teachers into teaching, we must take school, great differences can be made to social mobility, on the task of raising the average quality of the teachers because although statistically we see a link between who are already there. I repeat that most are outstanding, parents’ income and social class and children’s income but we must look afresh at continuing professional and social class, it is not actually a direct link. The links development and at helping teachers with later-in-life are, first, between parents’ income and social class and career choices if teaching is ultimately not for them. children’s educational attainment, and secondly, between The individual child needs to be inspired to aspire, children’s educational attainment and their own eventual which is where careers advice becomes so important. It income and social class. If we can break that loop and is worth saying that I did not hear many good things get kids from poorer backgrounds and more difficult said about Connexions until there was talk of change, backgrounds achieving well at school, it is perfectly when suddenly it became the best thing ever invented. possible to have outstanding social mobility. There has never been a golden age of careers advice in The pupil premium, a great innovation from the schools. Most people, whether they are 30, 40, 50 or 70, Government, is a very important step, but of course it will relate the time when they were advised to become a does not give the answer, only space and opportunity florist, a caterer for the RAF or something very unlike for the answer. It is critical to know how schools, and what they ended up doing. the education system more widely, should spend money for maximum impact. Therefore, I welcome very much I do not know about other Members, but when I was the work of the Education Endowment Foundation 13 or 14, I did not know what I wanted to do—well, I and the Government’s support for it, and the fact that thought I knew, but I was wrong about what I would Ofsted will in future be measuring how schools are end up doing; I have not totally given up on being a using the funds. I also welcome the Sutton Trust toolkit rock star though, so we will see how it goes. Often, the of strategies for effective learning, which goes through best advice is to keep your options open, so subject in some detail individual programmes and initiatives choice is an important consideration. that work in schools to narrow the gap between rich and The English baccalaureate has its fans and critics, but poor. it has clearly demonstrated that it can steer young Policy makers have to be brave and willing to take on people towards qualifications and subjects that keep and explode myths that for politicians are difficult to their options most open. I remain concerned about talk about—in particular, for example, on class size. A-levels in that regard. We have the list of the facilitating There really is not any evidence that over the relevant A-level subjects from the Russell group—the ones that range, reducing class sizes helps either average attainment it, to paraphrase, takes seriously in university admissions. or in terms of narrowing the gap between rich and poor. When I meet very bright young people in my constituency Obviously, it does at a certain point—when we are and elsewhere, I get depressed when I ask, “What subjects talking about 12 kids in a class—but not over the are you doing?” and they reply, “Physics, chemistry and relevant range. law” or “Physics, chemistry and music technology” and The single most important factor is not how many so on. Too many young people are effectively self-selecting people the person at the front of the class has in their out of Russell group-type institutions, even though they class, but who that person is; the issue is about teachers clearly have the intelligence to be admitted. What, along and teaching. We recently had a Select Committee E-bac lines, could be done about that at A-level? inquiry. It was going to be called “What Makes a Great University is the single biggest determinant in career Teacher?” but obviously when the Committee got hold progression in later life, and of course attainment is key of it, we made the title much duller; it was something to that. Much is made of the fact that although only 7% like “attracting, retaining, developing”—and something of kids attend private schools, they make up 17% of else—“teachers”. students at Russell group universities and 34% at Oxbridge. What came up time and again was the importance of The figures are a tiny bit misleading, however, because great teachers and great teaching. We know it when we that 7% refers to an average across all ages. If we take see it. The problem is that it is very difficult to see it and only the young people between the ages of 16 and 18 know it before the teacher is already in the school and studying A-levels, the figure almost doubles to 13%. Of teaching. That is why one of our recommendations was those who have passed three A-levels at grade C or to make auditioning for teaching much more prevalent above, it goes up further to 19%. For a subject combination before people take on teacher training. such as maths, physics and chemistry, it is 27%. We also said that it is too high stakes a profession in If we ask what percentage of kids who get three As or many ways. Once someone has made the commitment A*s are at private school, I am afraid that the answer is to do a postgraduate certification in education or a 32%, which is knocking on the door of that 34% Oxbridge three or four-year BEd, they have basically committed figure and well above the Russell group figure. There is themselves to following that career for life. That puts off clearly a big challenge. As part of that, and as only a 145WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 146WH

[Damian Hinds] activities to equalise opportunities for poorer kids versus richer kids, however, they do not seem to know. They part of it, we cannot dodge—as much as we, as politicians, know that there are successful activities, but not quite might like to—the stars to shine question in secondary what they are or, most importantly, how to make people education on how we nurture outstanding talent. do them. We frequently find that opportunities are The grammar schools debate is divisive. Many right made available in the most challenging areas, but the hon. and hon. Members are former grammar school take-up is very small. children, which is perhaps unsurprising given the numbers We are told repeatedly that non-academic skills, such and the age profile in the House. What is more surprising as leadership, teamwork and customer empathy, are at is the number of people who say, “I was at a grammar least as important as academic achievement—the so-called school and I do not think that I would be here today non-cognitive skills. If we push people to name a non- had I not been”. The abolition of grammar schools was cognitive skill and tell us how to develop it and what certainly well intentioned and something for which would be on the course, everybody dries up a little. It is there has been consensus, implicit or explicit, across the a generic concept, so more clarity on what those skills House. are, and which ones we should develop and how, would Grammar schools were better funded and in better be welcome indeed. buildings and so on than secondary moderns. There is This vital issue has a great deal of focus and attention concern that in doing away with that inequality, another in the public sphere. I welcome the appointment of inequality widened between the families who could Alan Milburn to the new commission with Neil O’Brien afford to send their children to private schools and as his deputy. It will give great focus and direction. I those who could not. In reality, it is not a binary also welcome the close attention of the Government question; academic tailoring is a continuum on which and Ministers and the involvement of the Deputy Prime selection at 11 is one extreme and generic mixed-ability Minister, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State teaching is the other, but along the way is setting, for Education and, in particular, my right hon. Friend streaming, enrichment programmes, specialisation at the Minister for Universities and Science. He is probably 14 and different types of GCSEs and so on. the one person who could possibly answer across the When people say, “I’d like my children to go to a range of subject material. grammar school”, they really mean, and if you prompt I thank the Backbench Business Committee for the them they will say, “I want my children to go to a time for this debate. At that point, I will stop. grammar school, where the head teacher knows all the children’s names, where the teachers wear suits, and Several hon. Members rose— where if I walk along the corridor with a teacher and Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I will call Hazel they see a piece of litter, they stoop to pick it up.” Blears in a moment. After she has spoken, I will explain Such things are replicable, but the tragedy is that in how the rest of the debate will proceed. The first speaker far too many schools we are not delivering. I would not after Hazel Blears will be Mark Garnier. want selection to come back to the town I live, for example; there are two outstanding secondary schools, 2.59 pm and it would be divisive were one to be a secondary Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): It is a pleasure modern and the other a grammar. More widely, and to be in Westminster Hall this afternoon with you, particularly in a world where we have great and increasing Mr Hollobone, as our Chair. I first thank the hon. diversity in educational provision, there could be a Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) for his place, across a wider area and in every major conurbation, tour de force on the interim report of the all-party for an academically selective school alongside a school group on social mobility. He illustrated not only the that specialised in sport or music and so on. depth of his knowledge, but his personal commitment I am taking too long, so I shall accelerate and finish. to and passion for the issue. We also wanted to talk in our report about the things There are some issues in Parliament on which we take that we do not know, and I will end on that point. We dramatically opposing views. We argue our corners and were pleased to mark down all the things that we could have some pretty intense disagreements. I am happy to say, but it became abundantly clear that critical information say that that is not the case in the all-party group. That is missing from the debate on social mobility, starting is an important point when we talk about social mobility, with information on innate ability. because social mobility matters to every Member of With social mobility, we are clearly talking about Parliament and every family in our constituencies. Yes, equalising chances for young people and trying to hold we will have different approaches and different policy everything else constant. It would be intellectually crazy prescriptions, but the absolute imperative is to ensure to suggest that there was no innate ability—in other that we are utilising the skills, the talents, the passion words, inherited intelligence. There is clearly some, but and the commitment of everybody in our community, if we ask academics how much of a child’s ability is not just for their own personal fulfilment but for the nature and how much is nurture—innate versus competitiveness and the ability of our economy to developed—they tend to say that it is somewhere between thrive. 25% and 75%. That is a huge range with which to deal, The hon. Member for East Hampshire has given us a and although we will never have certainty, a little more really good overview of the subject, so I will concentrate direction on how much there is to go after would be on just a few of the issues. The all-party group discovered useful. that opportunities outside school, such as those to We know that what happens out of school matters at widen networks, make connections and meet people least as much as what happens in school. When we push that we would not normally meet, are key to raising people to say what they would do in terms of out-of-school ambition and aspiration, especially among young people; 147WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 148WH and that social mobility and the ability to get on does he closed his leather folder, and said, “Good morning, not stop at school, college or university. There is the Miss Blears, I think that I have heard enough.” He opportunity for second chances and third chances. We showed me the door. must never write people off and say that that is all they That was one of those defining moments in life. I left can be. There is always the chance to get on later. the office, got into the lift and burst into tears—not for I want to talk about issues of personal resilience, myself particularly, although I was upset. What he had confidence and self-esteem, which are often well taught done was insult my whole family, especially my father. in independent and private education establishments He had exercised the power that he had, as a very senior but not so well taught across the state system, yet they professional individual, over a young, powerless person. are key to people getting on. I pay tribute to our noble If anything drove me into the arms of the Labour party, friend, Baroness Tyler, who has made a personal study it was probably that experience. Many of us are shaped of the subject and has done some excellent work. The and formed by our experiences in that way. Luckily, I whole area has not been particularly well explored, managed to get my articles and became a solicitor, because it is less able to be analytically dissected and it eventually ending up in the British Cabinet, which is a is subject to a lot of anecdotal evidence. It is a rich seam strange journey. for us to pursue. That story explains why I feel so passionately about Let me explain why I feel so passionate about this this issue. There are literally hundreds of thousands of issue. We all come to this with our own particular young people in our communities who are full of talent, stories. Just last week, I was contacted by a young man passion and ability, and because they do not know from my constituency. He has a degree and has written anybody, they cannot get a foot in the door. They 300 letters to get a job. He has not had a single interview cannot get on that first rung of the ladder. Once we give and he is absolutely desperate to know how to take the someone a chance, it is up to them after that; they will next step in his life. I think that it was the number make what they are going to make of life. It is so unfair 300 that rang so many bells for me and brought home so that even today, in this country and in many other many memories. I left college with a law degree. I am countries, it is still who we know and not what we know. not sure why I studied law, but I think that it was Government policy is nowhere near developed enough because both my parents had left school at 14. We did in this area because it is so difficult. not have any professional people in our family. I went to When Labour was in Government and we were do a law degree because I thought that was how people formulating the future jobs fund, one of the most changed the world. As a lawyer, I rapidly discovered stunning facts that came to me was that seven out of that I certainly could not change the world; I could only 10 people get their next job through somebody they interpret the law. Then I realised that if I wanted to know. That might not be the great professional job; it change the world, I would have to make the law, which might be the plasterer’s job, the joiner’s job, a small is why I ended up in Parliament. company or a job with somebody in the community. When I first graduated and I had done my Law Only one or two people get their next job through the Society examinations, I wrote precisely 300 letters to try jobcentre system, so why are we not spending more of to get an interview as a trainee solicitor. As a family, we our resource on expanding people’s networks, contacts knew absolutely nobody. My dad was a factory worker, and the number of people with whom they have and it was when his firm got taken over by a multinational relationships, because that will stand them in good that things changed. It was through his foreman, his stead for the rest of their lives? Instead, a functional foreman’s boss and his boss’s boss that I managed, and structured system often operates in jobcentres, unbelievably, to get an interview with the best law firm which does not necessarily give people that richness of in Manchester, because it held the account for the contacts. multinational company. In the days before we had iPhones and BlackBerrys, I went for the interview; it was probably the most people often said that a filofax was worth as much to frightening experience of my life. It was far worse than them as an undergraduate degree in terms of the progress a constituency selection meeting. I went to the top floor that they would make in later life. It is very often those of a very grand office block in the city centre. I was met contacts that are made, particularly in the independent by the senior partner, so it was clear that this account school sector, that can be called up because they may was a serious matter to him in terms of his fee income. know somebody who knows somebody who can help. It He was one of those elderly gentlemen who peer over may be one’s parents who can help or someone in the half-moon glasses. He sat in a very high chair and we wider family. Yet so many people do not have those commenced the interview, which went incredibly well. contacts. Amazingly, we got on. We explored all the different Only 7% of people go to private school, but people parts of the law. I actually had some good commercial from private schools account for more than a third of results in my various exams and he was interested in me. Members of Parliament, more than half of FTSE chief We got halfway through the interview and it felt like one executives, half of our top journalists—and that is of those moments in life when something really exciting growing at an incredible rate—and still 70% of High is going to happen. My heart was pounding and I Court judges, so we have a long way to go before we thought, “ I’m going to get this job. I have written have more of a meritocracy and before we are utilising 300 letters, I haven’t had a single interview and I am the skills and talents of our people. going to get this job.” I was overcome. He said to me, If we look at what happens outside schools, we will “Tell me, Miss Blears, this interview is going rather well, find that very often there is top-up tutoring, especially isn’t it? We are getting along fine, aren’t we? Just remind in more affluent families, which gives people that head me what your father does in the company?” I said, “My start in life. The six-week summer holiday for better-off father is a fitter and he works in the factory.”With that, families is often devoted to enrichment activities, sports, 149WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 150WH

[Hazel Blears] politicians are increasingly coming from a narrow background, the political discourse and dialogue becomes culture, art and drama. All those activities build the key an internal dialogue rather than one that engages the skills around resilience, self-esteem and confidence. For public. children from poorer families, that six-week holiday is I am pleased to say that law firms are doing their bit often a nightmare. Parents cannot find child care, which at the moment. As a former lawyer, I hope that my leaves children to their own devices day after day after experience—the experience that I referred to earlier—is day. It is a wasted period and there is a learning loss for never repeated. There is also the PRIME initiative—the those poorer children who find that they have fallen Prince’s Initiative for Mature Enterprise—as part of behind when they return to school in September. A which 23 top law firms and the Sutton Trust have got much more attractive proposition is shorter terms and together. The law firms have agreed that, for each not such long holidays so that children can keep up with training contract that they award over the next few their learning. years, they will put in place an equivalent work experience On the later paths to mobility, we have heard some programme for somebody from a disadvantaged good evidence from employers—from Channel 4, which background, to try to get them up to the stage where runs a talent programme for paid internships and from they could realistically apply for a training programme. Wates Construction, which is offering work experience, Many of the biggest law firms are absolutely focused on apprenticeships and that next step to young people, that programme, and I commend them for that. often from very troubled backgrounds. We have more As I say, I hope that nobody else experiences what I and more employers being prepared to take the risk, did, although I must say that when I was Secretary of which is not inconsiderable for them, to take on ex-offenders State for Communities and Local Government I managed and give them a chance at that first start in life. I have to go back to the particular law firm in question to do worked with Morrison’s supermarket in Salford. When an event for it. The senior partner who had interviewed the store was being set up, I said that I wanted 50% of me had long retired, but the current senior partner was the jobs for local people from this really tough estate. It mortified when I told him my story. It was a great said, “We can’t do 50%, Hazel.” I said that it simply had experience. to, and we worked with the people incredibly closely. We I want to say something about politics, because there managed to get 82% of the jobs in that store for the is a problem in journalism but there is a big, big people from that estate, many of whom had never problem in politics, and we have a responsibility to try worked before, never had that chance and never believed to lead on this issue. I have been particularly exercised that somebody would believe in them enough to give by the increasing number of politicians who are coming them an opportunity. I have no doubt that those people— into this place from what I have called a transmission particularly the young people—will have their life changed belt: they work in Parliament for an MP; they become a as they progress through to apprenticeships and hopefully special adviser; they are parachuted into a relatively to managerial positions in the future, but unless we had safe seat at fairly short notice; and then they are fast-tracked put in place a programme of pre-employment training, into ministerial office and the Cabinet. I made a speech to get them to the point where they could actually turn about this subject when I was in the Cabinet myself; I up for an interview and present themselves properly, was not exactly the most popular person the next morning, they would never have had that chance. There are great as people can imagine. I said that I thought that process employers out there that are willing to give people a was bad for democracy, bad for policy making and bad chance and willing to take a risk, and we need to do for governance of the country. If everybody comes from more to praise and highlight the really good employers the same background there is groupthink, and there in our country that are just as motivated as we politicians needs to be challenge in policy making as well. are on this agenda. In 1979, just 3% of MPs said that they came from a I absolutely welcome Alan Milburn’s appointment to political adviser-type background. According to House the child poverty and social mobility commission; he of Commons figures, by the last election that had risen will be a great force for good. I have ploughed through to nearly 15%, and the Smith Institute’s latest research his first report, “Fair Access to Professional Careers”, says that the figure is 25%. A quarter of all our MPs which runs to several hundred pages. It is a very good have come through the route that I have described and I report. I was particularly struck by his phrase that believe that we are now creating a political elite, which “the glass ceiling has been scratched but not broken.” makes the problem of people’s disaffection with politics I had a vision of all these hands pushing at that ceiling, ever more acute. and he is right that we really need to break through it. The Hansard Society has found that 30% of people He highlights the fact that in the professions in which he feel completely ignored by decision makers and that has particularly taken an interest, such as law and 85% of people feel they have no influence over national medicine, we are still not making sufficient progress. He decisions. In addition, the Speaker’s Conference found points out that 40% of law graduates are from the three that people increasingly feel that MPs do not talk like highest socio-economic groups and only 14% are from them, do not look like them and have little connection the three lowest socio-economic groups, and that 48% with them. of journalism students—I am not particularly on a There is something practical that we can do. For crusade against the press in saying this—come from the the last year, I have been working with colleagues highest socio-economic groups and only 14% from the from different parties—the hon. Member for East three lowest socio-economic groups. In the days when Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), from the Liberal Democrats, becoming a journalist meant someone getting a job on and the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood the local paper and working their way up the system, (Eric Ollerenshaw), from the Conservative party—and those figures were very different indeed, and if we are with the Speaker, to set up the Speaker’s parliamentary creating a system where journalists and—I must say— placements scheme. We have raised a considerable amount 151WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 152WH of money from very good companies and our first is the “speed dating”, which is matching the employers 10 people started on the scheme last year; they are just and the young people. We already have had a dozen about to graduate from it now. It has been inspiring to jobs being offered—not just work experience placements, see people coming from completely different backgrounds but a dozen real jobs—as a result of the programme. into Parliament. They work four days a week with an When the young people have done their work experience, MP.On a Friday, they take part in a fantastic programme the employers and the young people will come to Parliament put on by the House of Commons Commission, which for a reception, to celebrate their working together and is about how a Bill goes through Parliament, how to do to get an experience of Parliament. research and statistics, personal development, public That scheme is a very simple one and if anyone else is speaking and going out and taking visitors around the interested in the practicalities of making such a scheme House of Commons. It has been amazing. happen, I must say that at least it gives the young people The people on that scheme include James, who was involved a taste of work and what it is like to be in an an unemployed joiner in Glasgow. He could not get a employment environment. Once again, it ensures that job, but he was passionate about his politics. He spent they will not simply settle and accept that their life will 10 months with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the never be any different. That is something practical that Opposition. We have also had Matthew, a young man we can do, and I pay tribute to Charlotte Chinn, who from Northern Ireland, who is a passionate Conservative. has been amazing in helping to make that scheme He spent time here and—fingers crossed—I think that happen in my constituency. Supporting it is one of the he is about to get a full-time job with an MP, and if so most inspiring things that I do. his life will be very different in the future. The final practical thing that I want to do is to We are just about to open our recruitment for the mention an organisation called Future First; some Members second year of the scheme. So, if there is anybody out might know about it already. It is relatively new, having there who reads Hansard and thinks they would like to been going now for a couple of years. What it tries to do come into Parliament from a very different background is to set up—a very complicated phrase—“alumni networks to others, bringing something to our life here that helps for state schools”. In the private education sector, alumni to leaven the mix of people who might think about networks are automatic. Current students at a school going into politics, I urge them to get in touch with the know the students who were there before them. Former Social Mobility Foundation, which runs the scheme on students raise money, act as mentors or role models, our behalf. Equally, I say to MPs that if they are come in and share their experiences at the school and interested in taking one of these young people into their consequently they enrich the school’s curriculum. That office and giving them the chance to see that politics has never happened in state schools. But for the last really makes a difference, that is something practical couple of years, Future First has been organising that we can do about improving social mobility. programmes across London and they now want to As I say, the Speaker’s scheme has been amazing. I expand across the country. What those programmes do did not think that it would actually get off the ground, is to track former pupils—using Facebook or Friends but I hope that we now have some sustainability for the Reunited—to see whether they would be willing to future. I am delighted to say that after I challenged the come back into their former school, to share their Deputy Prime Minister in our debate on his social experiences with the current students and act as role mobility strategy—in which he mentioned our scheme models. Amazingly, 30% of former pupils have said that without actually having given any money to it—he has they would love to do that. That is a potential resource now decided to commission a few places for people of up to 10 million people in this country who would from low-income backgrounds who also have particular come back and be role models for state school students disabilities, and who therefore would perhaps find it in the future. doubly difficult to come and work here in Parliament. I was struck by what one of the students said: We are delighted to ensure that we can attract people to come along. That is the first bit of Government investment “In private schools, they’re told that they can conquer the and I hope that we will see more of it in the future. world, they’re given motivation, they’re told they can win. We’re not told that in state schools so it’s harder for us”. That is our national scheme. I just want to mention briefly one thing that I am doing in my local area. Like That is absolutely what it is like. Luckily, when I was most MPs, I think that if we talk about national politics growing up, my mum said, “You work hard: the world’s it is incumbent upon us to try to ensure that we do your oyster. You can be anything. You can do anything something practical—something that works—at a local in the world.” If people do not have that push behind level too. In Salford, we have set up a scheme called them from home, and do not get it in the school they Kids without Connections, because I am getting so attend, it is much more difficult to have the ambition many young people now, such as the young man who and aspiration that will take them on their journey. The wrote to me and said that he had applied for 300 jobs, work that Future First does is incredibly valuable, and who come to me and say, “You’re my last resort, Hazel. we have a huge untapped resource that we could draw What can I do?” Like most MPs, I have very good on, to make the situation very different. As ever, we contacts with the employers in my constituency: in have a problem, but I like to think of practical solutions construction; in retail; in hospitality; in catering; and in that we can bring to bear. I am sure that the Minister the public sector. We have now had a big event with all will be in the same place. It is important to have some of our employers. We have 70 employers registered that programmes to point to that are making a difference, are all prepared to give work experience to young and try to scale them up. people in my constituency, so that those young people I have been lucky in my life. I have met people at can do two, three or perhaps four weeks of work important points, who have guided me and shaped my experience over the summer. I have 150 young people life. They have encouraged me to do different things. who have volunteered. We are now doing what I suppose For that I am incredibly grateful. Some of them were 153WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 154WH

[Hazel Blears] Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing this important debate. The right hon. Lady will be delighted to hear that I have inspirational teachers who made a connection with no background in politics, but may be disappointed that their students and gave them a broader outlook on life. prior to coming to this place I was a hedge fund Some were people I met at work, and some were friends manager and investment banker. However, as a result, I and family. I worry enormously, however, that many tend to view my work here, and the world, through a young people do not have that in their lives, and that financial prism. It is in that context that I want to speak their talents go to waste. I do not think we can allow this afternoon about social mobility and financial education. that. Something that has struck me since I have been in I have a couple of questions to which I would like the this place is that when we consider education we still Minister’s response. First, what action is he taking to mean reading, writing and arithmetic, and how important widen the networks of people from the poorest it is to go to university. Yet we miss out the fundamental, backgrounds? If we have any money to spend—and I basic core skill of financial literacy. We expect current know it is tight—I want it to be spent in a way that gets and future generations to go out into the world, find a results, rather than on sustaining a system that does not job, save for retirement, buy houses, take on debt, start really achieve. and run businesses and bring in the next generation of I am very concerned about the advertising of unpaid their families with only the most rudimentary knowledge internships. I do not mean four or six weeks’ work of how the financial and money systems work. experience, but full-time jobs, where people are expected That is not to say that there is no financial education. to turn up and do a series of proper tasks, and take on Schools make efforts to provide it. I have been lucky responsibilities, but get no pay. That is illegal in this enough in my capacity as a Member of Parliament to country, and people with such jobs must be paid the give such a lesson, at Baxter college in Kidderminster, minimum wage. Yet it is still lawful to advertise those where the kids I talked to engaged very well with the unpaid, full-time, long term internships. That is a mismatch. subject of money. I also witnessed a lesson given by If something is unlawful it should not be lawful to RBS at King Charles school in Kidderminster. Bank advertise it. I should like to hear the Minister’s response. staff teach years 7 and 8 how to use a bank and Will he support more robust enforcement with respect understand the basics of the banking system. I know to unlawful, unpaid internships, so that employers must that schools would like to do more in that area. I am in pay the national minimum wage as they should? the process of setting up a group of volunteers to go Will he also support the establishment of alumni into schools to provide financial education for local networks? I know that some money has been granted kids. from the Cabinet Office social action fund, which is welcome, but it would be a practical and cheap way of Even with that benevolent tailwind of good will from making a difference. teachers, provision is patchy and sporadic. There are serious problems in this country because of financial Finally, will the Minister recognise some of the great illiteracy. I shall paint a slightly gloomy picture to take employers that I have met in the past year, primarily account of where we are now. For many years our through the Speaker’s placement scheme? The people constituents were bombarded with letters from banks who help and support us include Morrison’s supermarkets, and credit card companies, announcing pre-approval Prudential, AXA, Aviva, the Royal Mail and Clifford for a £10,000 loan, an opportunity to go on that life- Chance—every spectrum of corporate life. They are changing Caribbean cruise or a chance to own that just as passionate about what we are doing as we are, sports car that it is impossible to live without. All the and they make a difference. We should thank them and while, even senior people in the country—I am not encourage others to take part too. making any political point—were assuring us that the traditional economic cycles had somehow been changed. Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I thank the debate’s two sponsors for opening the batting. I thought it might The reality is that economic cycles will never change. be helpful if I ran through how the debate will proceed. There will always be an economic cycle that goes through It must close at 5.30. The Opposition spokesman, Shabana the five stages of recovery, acceleration, boom, slowdown Mahmood, will be called no later than 4.55, to speak and recession. However, to maintain the illusion, we for 15 minutes. The Minister will be called no later than had irresponsible lending and, it now seems, as we have 5.15, to speak for 15 minutes, and then Damian Hinds heard today, illegal activities around market abuse from has two minutes to wind up. the biggest banks, which is one of the most shocking Between now and the speech of Shabana Mahmood, things that we will hear while we are Members of there are seven hon. Members who have said they want Parliament. to speak. That would give each of them 12 to 13 minutes. To talk about irresponsible lending without addressing The running order will be Mark Garnier, Meg Hillier, the other side of the coin is, however, only to half-address Mark Pawsey, Mike Crockart, Jackie Doyle-Price, Kelvin the problem. Taking out a 120% mortgage at the height Hopkins and Martin Vickers. of a property boom is irresponsible borrowing, and the That may all change at 4 o’clock when the Chair banks could not lend irresponsibly were it not for changes, but until then that is going to be the order. irresponsible borrowing by successive consumers. However, here is the nub of the matter: is it fair to brand a 3.24 pm consumer an irresponsible borrower, if he or she is not equipped with the knowledge to make a rational and Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I congratulate informed decision about their borrowing? If someone my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian does not have the knowledge to recognise the cynicism Hinds) and the right hon. Member for Salford and of the advertising campaigns and the short-termism of 155WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 156WH something like the fashion industry, how on earth can I have painted a gloomy picture, but only because I they make a sound judgment on the merits of a spending want to reinforce the message that we cannot possibly decision? expect people to achieve any form of social mobility It is worth putting the country’s situation in perspective. without being able to engage with the oil that lubricates Government debt, amassed over many years, stands at the engine of the economy in which we all live. If people £1 trillion. Personal debt—the debt we collectively own are comfortable dealing with money and financial products, among us—stands at just under £1.5 trillion. That is we have a confident population, equipped to do well in more than £56,000 for every household in the country. life, but if not, we trap people at best and, worse, in this To put that into a wider context, I understand that half complex financial world, we place them in danger of of all European personal debt lies within our shores, social failure. among a population representing about 10% of the I want to see financial literacy taught in two ways. population of Europe. Of that total debt, £55 billion is First, I want to see the quantitative side being taught in on credit cards. maths, which not only will equip people to know whether The real worry to bear in mind is that I have outlined they can afford something, but can bring maths to life. the situation at a time of super-low interest rates. The If the question, “Compounding 125 at 17% on 18 regular base rate has been at its present level for nearly five intervals while reducing the sum equally over those years, but that is totally abnormal. It is not even normal 18 intervals requires what discounting?” were asked as, for a very low interest rate period, but over the five-year “You want to buy a pair of football boots costing period, people have got used to ultra-low rates. The £125 on your credit card with an APR of 17%. What is reality is that interest rates will undoubtedly rise, to a your monthly repayment if you are to pay it off before low interest rate environment. That means that the rise they wear out in 18 months’ time?”, that would engage a could happen before we get back to any semblance of a lot more people in finding out how the maths works. healthy economy. In a normal period of low interest rates, the base rate could rise from 3% to 4%. That, in Damian Hinds: Without a calculator. simple terms, would increase the cost of borrowing by about one third; but if the base rate rises from its current level to a still low 2%, the cost of debt servicing Mark Garnier: Absolutely. On the qualitative side, rises fourfold. The implication is an astronomical rise in the question, “If I spend £125 on a pair of football households’ debt costs. boots, will I be able to play like David Beckham?” needs We are talking about social mobility at a time when to be taught elsewhere, in personal, social, health and everything we are trying to achieve could be scuppered economic education, and in the wider curriculum. I by the most basic movements in interest rates. It is vital discovered, to my cost, that the answer is no. that we try to head off such a disaster by providing As time progresses, and we talk more about the advice, and we must also ensure that we never again face subject, I am increasingly convinced that financial education this potential catastrophe by training our next generation needs to be not only included in the curriculum, but to engage in the economy in a far more educated way. tested. Teachers who have huge pressures on their time The immediate problem can be mitigated for some by naturally tend towards subjects in which there is testing, website-based advice services. Some of the private ones, so if we do not test financial literacy there is a fear that such as moneysavingexpert.com, provide good advice it will not be put into the curriculum. for those who can access and engage with them. That is What we are trying to achieve is not just people being an important point; not everyone can engage with the able to work out their bank and credit card balances. I websites, because they do not understand even the want my constituents and all the people of this country basics. The Financial Services Authority’s efforts through to be able to work out problems such as that of a the Money Advice Service are, at the moment, lamentable, hypothetical individual who loses their job and lives in a but at least it is putting cash into debt advice services rural community with £5,000 redundancy money to such as those provided by citizens advice bureaux. their name. I want people to be able to make the crucial If we are to avoid any further crises in household decision about that individual’s future. Should they finances, we absolutely must introduce financial education blow the money on a cheer-me-up holiday of a lifetime, into our curriculum. The demand for it is not being or should they buy a car to seek work further afield? met. Some 97% of 11 to 17-year-olds think it is important, Should they use the money to retrain for something 80% of parents want their nine and 10-year-olds to different, or should they invest it in a new business that learn about money and 66% of Britons think that they own and can drive forward, thus taking control of financial lessons would have given them the resources to their own life? deal with their financial challenge. Given that 43% of parents do not know what an APR or a PPI is, it seems The absolutely crucial engine to social mobility has that those 66% of Britons are absolutely right that we to lie in financial literacy. That is why I will continue to need to teach people more. urge the Government to put financial education on to the curriculum, and to test it. As a former investment banker, even though I can dissect the Bayesian probability models that drive some black box hedge funds, my bank manager will testify, I Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): There has been a am embarrassed to say, that I am completely incapable change to the running order, due to a late entry. It will of balancing my cheque book every month. The all-party now be: Meg Hillier, Mark Pawsey, Virendra Sharma, group on financial education for young people, of which Mike Crockart, Jackie Doyle-Price, Kelvin Hopkins I am vice-chairman, is calling for financial education to and Martin Vickers. But do not worry; you have an be put on the school curriculum. average of 11 minutes each. 157WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 158WH

3.34 pm represents 40% of pupils—in London as a whole the figure is 25%, and nationally it is 16%. Those figures are Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ another indicator of the challenges but, in spite of that, Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, 40% of Hackney pupils in maintained schools went into Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the higher education in 2008-2009, according to the latest Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) and the figures available from the Department for Business, hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) on Innovation and Skills. securing this vital debate. I think that on this occasion we have common ground, and we are all hon. Friends. It The Minister will know that the statistics are not is easy to talk the talk, but I want to talk a bit about perfect, because tracking is difficult, and I completely how we can walk the walk, in ensuring that we achieve endorse the points made by my right hon. Friend the some results. Member for Salford and Eccles about having an alumni system, because there is not enough follow-through for I declare that I am now happily a vice-chair of the young people. Nationally, the percentage of children on all-party group on social mobility. It is appropriate that free school meals who go on to university is 17%, so we I take on that responsibility because I represent one of are achieving well in Hackney, with what might be the poorest boroughs in the country. I do not want to described as a challenging cohort. There is a good track bombard Members with statistics, but it is important to record, but improving educational results is clearly not set in context some of the reasons why I am particularly enough. interested in this issue. The latest child poverty statistics from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, from 2009, From talking to young people, I have picked up that show that the London average for children living in they very much need the kind of networks that my right poverty is 29.6%, and the national figure is 21%, whereas hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles talked the figure for Hackney is more than double that, at about. I will say a little about that, and about why I have nearly 46%. got involved in helping to develop the idea locally. A decade ago, Hackney schools were not delivering Members might have read a book by Andrew Adonis—now results; they were a byword for people fleeing Hackney. Lord Adonis—entitled “A Class Act”. People were coming to see me about how they could get The book is out of print, and I am urging him to their children into schools outside the borough, but update it. It highlights the closed nature of professions, now they beg me to do anything I can to get their which is an issue that has been brought bang up to date children into schools in Hackney. Through the London by the Government’s independent reviewer on social Challenge, and the local authority and elected mayor mobility, Alan Milburn, in his report entitled “Fair embracing every opportunity provided by any Government, Access to Professional Careers”, which has already we have new, fresh-start schools. The Labour Government been cited. I will not repeat everything that the report provided us with academies and we have had another, says—I am sure many Members are familiar with it—but along with a university technical college, agreed under one thing it recognises is that professions will account this Government. for 83% of all new jobs in Britain in the next decade. In Hackney in 2004, the figure for pupils achieving Unless we get greater access to professions from across five A* to C grades, including maths and English, was all groups, we will be cutting out an awful lot of people 29%, and in 2011 it was 57%. There were some very from new jobs. high achieving schools, including Mossbourne community Some professions have made good progress. In the academy in my constituency, which achieved 84% such civil service, for example, of the top 200 civil servants in grades, and nine offers of places at Cambridge the year 2012, 27% were privately educated, compared with 45% before last. A number of our schools are, of course, not just three years ago in 2009. That has happened as a yet at the GCSE stage because they were fresh starts. result not of this Government’s activities or even, to We are seeing huge achievement in schools. We are also a degree, those of the previous Government, but of an seeing that background poverty is not an excuse for organisation recognising that it did not represent the lower achievement, and that we can challenge that people whom it serves. stereotypical assumption. With good rigour and good We need to look at the professions’ grip on how they teaching in schools, we can achieve results. recruit. I visited a school in Hackney the other week—I Hackney may have its poverty, but there is no poverty will touch on what I am doing with some schools—whose of ambition, as the results show. Education maintenance pupils said that they needed contacts, particularly in allowance take-up was high in the borough, with banking, an industry in which I was interested to hear 3,611 young people receiving it, and that was a significant the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) factor. I met one young woman who said that on a formerly worked. Some 90% of jobs in banking go to Thursday she would use her allowance to put money on people who have already had some work experience, but the electricity key, so that she could have light and those placements usually go to the children of partners heating in the house, for the family to live and for her to or clients. That cuts out pretty much everybody in a do her homework. The allowance was used for very Hackney school, yet we are on the edge of the City and basic things. In a debate a couple of weeks ago, I raised have very good links with UBS, which sponsors an my concerns about what is happening to the young academy in Hackney, and with KPMG—another bank people who really need the support. Although there and accountancy firm—and the City of London, which have been some attempts to bridge the gap, I am not yet both sponsor another academy.We must keep challenging, convinced that those attempts will do what the education and I will touch on some of the work that I have been maintenance allowance did for young people in Hackney. doing in that regard. A really good example of what Hackney schools are Another issue raised by Alan Milburn’s report is the achieving is that we are seeing huge results, even though desire to make internships paid positions and accessible the free school meals take-up at secondary school level to all. I want to focus on accessibility. I do not completely 159WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 160WH disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for I am sure that other Members will raise issues relating Salford and Eccles. We need properly paid internships, to access to university, but I want to highlight how the but my worry—we need to be careful about this—is that Open university is doing an awful lot to improve access if that is the only route that we follow, we will move the and helping people progress from the OU to Russell point at which young people will be selected for those group universities, which is important. positions to the interview stage. Are all our young I want to talk briefly about what is happening with people ready for that? If we are going to do this properly, young people in Hackney. I have set up a networking it is about not just securing payment for internships, but programme called “Next Steps”, which is similar to the ensuring that young people are prepared so that they programme described by my right hon. Friend the are not as nervous my right hon. Friend was when she Member for Salford and Eccles. It provides access to went for her first interview. They need to be ready. young people to build networks with professional and We have all heard horror stories about interviews and business people. So far, I have hosted one event—there I want to share one that will sound unbelievable. I will will be another one next week—in which professionals not name the source, because it might embarrass him. A taught young people about networks and provided the young person from another part of the country—not connections. my own—was keen to study medicine and had an A young woman who wants to be a medical student interview at Cambridge. He had done a lot of preparation, had written to everyone she could think of to try to get but when he turned up for the interview and walked a placement, but without success. I was able to find her into the room, he saw three men sitting on the floor, one, however, because an MP’s address book—this might ready to conduct it. That is a recent example. be true even if I were not an MP, but that is how I have We have all heard stories like the one involving a progressed to this point in life—means that we have that tutor who threw a rugby ball when candidates entered access. We need to do more of that. Young people tell the room to see whether they could catch it. If they me, “We don’t want handouts; we want help. We want caught it, they got a place, and if they converted it, they HR, not social responsibility.” got a scholarship. Such stories may be anecdotal, but Hackney council’s children and young people scrutiny they demonstrate that there are issues with regard to commission looked at raising aspirations and talked to how universities admit students. I will touch on that young people themselves. Hackney youth parliament later, if I have time. As with internships, we need to look commissioned research of the views of young people in at all aspects of access, not just the money, and make Hackney. They say—we should all listen to this—that sure that people feel comfortable. they want better listening and engagement with young Our local sixth form college in Hackney, BSix, has people when devising participation strategies. In other introduced something called the red room. It has kitted words, “Don’t tell us how to do it. Ask us what we want out a room in the college to make it look like an and what we need.” They also say that they want young Oxbridge don’s study. It is book-lined, has low chairs people to be involved in the world of work, including and has a courtyard outside. A fellow from Oxford improving the careers service. turns up every week to talk to pupils, teach them in the room and give them a feel of what it is like to be in such I have high hopes for our careers service. As the hon. an environment. Member for East Hampshire said, careers services are never perfect, but I live in hope. The young people of Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I agree strongly Hackney also want the development of a world of work with what my hon. Friend is saying. One of the points curriculum as part of personal, social, health and economic that I have made to our sixth form college is that one’s education. They also want to showcase opportunities oral expression is absolutely key in interviews. So often for children, young people, carers and parents, and for it is those from private schools and the middle class who them to include enterprise days, milk rounds, paid have an enormous advantage simply as a result of how placements and so on. They know what they want and they speak. Giving people the opportunity to learn a what their parents need to help them break through. We more elaborate way of speaking gives them much more need to make sure that that happens. of an advantage at interview. Parental support can be challenging for parents, Meg Hillier: Absolutely. That is important. The particularly those from backgrounds where there are no Government buy a lot of business from a lot of professional links and where English might not be their organisations, so I ask the Minister whether it would be first language. Perhaps literacy in even their mother possible to include a requirement in Government contracts tongue is challenging and connections with their mother- to provide support to young people from the types of tongue community are not great. Such people need background under discussion. support in understanding that there are good opportunities for their young people to pursue. The support of parents Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): in making the right choices is very important, but unless May I make a quick plug for MPs recruiting apprentices we help educate parents, as well as provide support to to their own offices? I have had a fantastic experience young people, we will not make that breakthrough. with my first apprentice caseworker over the past year, and will shortly take on another one from a school in my constituency. It is a fantastic experience for them 3.47 pm and for me. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve Meg Hillier: I hear what the hon. Lady says; we could under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. Like the other all set an example in that respect. The lack of diversity Members who have spoken, I congratulate my hon. with regard to people applying for jobs in Parliament is Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) an issue that we all could and should tackle in our and the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles recruitment. (Hazel Blears) on securing this debate. My hon. Friend 161WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 162WH

[Mark Pawsey] backgrounds of those we were at school with, but I was in a class with the sons of factory workers and mechanics, made an interesting speech, demonstrating his knowledge some of whom went on to set up their own businesses, of and enthusiasm for the topic, and the right hon. to rise to senior positions in plcs, and to enter professions. Lady gave an interesting account of why it is so important The issue of selective education is important because to her. although there have been many improvements in schools It is great that there is cross-party consensus on the since the 1960s, there are fewer opportunities for poorer issue. We all agree that everybody in this country should children to access the very highest achieving schools be born with equal life chances, although, as my hon. available. Of course, it is up to each local area to decide Friend the Member for East Hampshire told us, in on its constituent schools. I am proud that my constituency many instances the situation is going backwards. The has an excellent system of selective education. However, cohort that he grew up with, who are in their 40s, have in the area I represent, improvements could be made to less social mobility than the cohort that I grew up with, the process of selection to ensure that we have a fairer who are in their 50s. It is beholden on the Government result. to equalise life chances so that everybody has the best possible chance of success. In the Warwickshire selection system, people should be able to opt out of the selection exam, rather than I want to talk about a couple of issues: the Government’s having the current opt-in system. I fully understand troubled families initiative and my hopes for its success; that some parents do not wish their child to have a and the value of education. Parliament’s troubled families selective education or for their child to take part in the support group consists of a number of Conservative exam. However, the children of many families who do MPs, including my hon. Friend and me, who have an not know about or understand registration deadlines or interest in that area of policy and who support the the forms to fill in miss out on an opportunity. In Minister. I am pleased that my county council in canvassing for local elections some time ago, I met a Warwickshire has signed up early to the troubled families very bright 12-year-old whose parents told me that their initiative and that, as a consequence, 800 families in my child was denied the chance of a grammar school county—many of them in my constituency of Rugby—will education simply because they did not manage to fill get extra help. the forms in on time. That is a real tragedy and that The key ideas are to reduce truancy, get young people issue is something I would like to see changed. back into school and reduce youth and anti-social The current process whereby children take the selection behaviour, as well as help adults back into work. The exam in an exam centre rather than where they regularly initiative has a payment-by-results mechanism, with up go to school is also inappropriate. For youngsters aged 11, to £4,000 available for every family who are successfully the pressure and anxiety to perform well can be exacerbated turned around. That means that there is £3 million by unfamiliar surroundings. I would like the process of available to Warwickshire over the next three years. The identifying those bright and capable children who are council has already appointed a troubled families able to benefit from a selective education to take place co-ordinator, and I am looking forward to meeting in surroundings they are familiar with. I know that directors and officers of the council over the coming those are local decisions, but attention to both matters weeks to discuss how the process will work. would help to improve social mobility. My hon. Friend articulated the importance of mobility when he spoke about social justice and economic growth. Such growth depends on the best deployment of resources. Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): Many factors contribute to the problem, such as the As my hon. Friend might expect, I agree with everything care system, the welfare system, a lack of role models he has been saying. One further point I would like to and regional inequalities, but, judging from Members add to the list is the importance of state primary remarks so far, the issue of education is to the fore. schools giving practice tests to all their pupils. That would mean pupils in state schools had the same experience That is a key part of the troubled families initiative: as prep school pupils or those who have had the benefit getting excluded children back into the classroom. Local of tutoring: they will have encountered the test before authorities have to hit a target of achieving 85% attendance and will not be fazed by being confronted with a selection in schools for the children from the families involved, test they have not seen before. and fewer than three exclusions during a year. Those are tough targets for local councils to achieve, but such work is worth it given the importance of education in Mark Pawsey: I entirely endorse my hon. Friend’s dealing with people’s life chances. The pupil premium words. I support selective education as a driver of social has also been mentioned. I am proud that the Government mobility on the basis that it is made equally accessible have extended the remit of the pupil premium and are to all children. There is a danger that the system is being providing a total of £625 million this year and a further taken advantage of by those who are able to do so, and I £1.25 billion next year in additional funding for children would like the playing field to be made as level as from disadvantaged backgrounds. possible. My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire I would also like to talk about the role of fathers in said that it was inevitable that a Conservative Member the home and the strength that children can derive from would raise the matter of grammar schools. In this a family unit. In this day and age, I recognise that those debate, so far, it will be me. I make no apologies for circumstances are not available for everyone. There is a taking the opportunity to talk about the benefits of a strong role for fathers, but young people can also benefit selective education. I went to a grammar school in from help with homework, summer camps and extra Rugby and there are three other MPs who also went to tutoring. People step in to provide support when fathers that school. In school, we rarely got to talk about the are absent. There are some great national schemes such 163WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 164WH as the Prince’s Trust and local organisations such as the how I started my career. I will also mention a few of the Mayday Trust in my constituency. I want them to be hurdles I have faced. Many others may also have had given every help and support. such experiences. On the issue of education, it is entirely right that we To some people, it may be a surprise that I started my place emphasis on the early years. However, there should life in this country as a bus conductor. From that, I got also be influence on the later years. I was interested to to where I am now. During the many years of my hear the remarks of the right hon. Member for Salford working life, I had different experiences. I had my own and Eccles about second and third chances. The aspirations and I wanted to ensure that I achieved Government’s agenda on apprenticeships could contribute. something in life. However, not having been born here The previous Government made a great deal about the but having arrived when I was 20 years old, I also had to percentage of school leavers going to university, but a settle, so I faced a mixture of challenges. I wanted to university degree is not the sole route to success within a achieve something, but there were barriers. The first career; there can be more hands-on routes. Those who barrier was a lack of knowledge and support. I had know a trade or a skill can use that as a route to the top opportunities, and I was working, but I was sharing one of an organisation just as effectively as winning a degree. room with a wife and child while trying to learn and I want more recognition for those who go down that gain qualifications. particular route. I started in further education part-time through the As politicians, we knock on people’s doors and are Open university, to which my hon. Friend the Member often invited into their homes. We often see in the for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) referred, hallway and in the living room photographs of people—it then continued to study as a mature student. Imagine may be their children or grandchildren—receiving their having a family, living in one room and looking after a degree certificate. The question I often ask myself is: child while trying to achieve academic qualifications. where is the equivalent celebration for those who have Over the years, we have come a long way. Many people pursued a less academic route? have support and guidance from mentors and other A couple of weeks ago, I was delighted to attend the individuals. As I was not born here and did not receive Rugby apprentice of year award on national vocational my basic education in this country, social mobility is an qualification day. I acknowledge the great success of issue that goes to my heart. I also believe that without Lee Bradley in my constituency as the first recipient of support and guidance—which I did not have at the that award. We need to have the same regard for those time—it is difficult to achieve. who take that route in their career as for those who take a more academic route. [ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] I am delighted that that issue is being taken more Social mobility is a vast issue that should be addressed seriously by business. Earlier today, I had the great from birth and the earliest years. However, I will focus pleasure to meet the midlands business woman of the on the social mobility of our young people and how year, Julie White, who runs a business called D-Drill. they grow up and enter the world of work. It can be She puts a massive emphasis on apprentices. In fact, she boiled down to three key issues, which I will address in is doing an apprenticeship herself, so that she knows turn. First, are all young people aware of and exposed exactly the work that the guys in her business are doing. to the same opportunities, be they jobs, education or She tells me that somebody in a very senior management other opportunities? Unfortunately, many approaches role in her business was, some years ago, an apprentice. to social mobility over the decades have treated it as a way for people to get out of the lower levels of society In conclusion, I thank hon. Members who have and move up to the highest stratum. That has meant contributed for their work. Great work is being done in that as promising young people from poor communities the all-party group on social mobility, and I look forward prove exceptions to the rule and do well for themselves, to it continuing its work and effecting change in this they leave their community or school to live or study very important area. elsewhere, where other successful people are, creating a divide that must be broken down. Young people of all backgrounds should be able to see others doing well in a 3.57 pm host of professions and to learn from and share their Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Thank experiences. you, Mr Hollobone, for accepting my late request to I do not want to criticise the present Government’s speak in the debate and giving me the opportunity to do policies, but the reality is that policy changes have so. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for created problems and hurdles for young people from Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing the debate, certain communities. When my children were growing which is very important and close to everybody’s heart. up, careers advice services such as the doomed Connexions The subject has brought all parties together, because were a vital tool in exposing young people to the everyone wants to see a decent and equal society. That is options available to them. However, as that programme the positive side of the debate that we have seen today. I has unfortunately faced the Government axe, young also congratulate all the previous speakers. I agree with people must look online for inspiration, apparently to every point they have raised and the issues they have the National Careers Service. It is a good website, but it discussed. is not enough. People who have had the experience of We all have our own experiences of life. I assure hon. going through the careers service will know that one-to-one, Members that aspirations and beliefs do not stop at the face-to-face advice, guidance and encouragement are age of 40, 50 or after 50—many of us still believe that totally different from reading a website and then looking there is a future for us. As I said, we all have experiences for someone who might be in a position to give advice and stories to tell. Today, I will talk about my life and and guidance. 165WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 166WH

[Mr Virendra Sharma] London, to find accommodation while here and, at the same time, to sacrifice the chance of paid work which Secondly, do all young people have the skills and would support their family is something that many experience required to follow the path that they choose? would find impossible. Despite being active, passionate It is all well and good inspiring someone and setting young people, with great qualifications and a burning them on a certain path, but they must be able to ambition to work in their chosen industry, that simple measure up against the competition. I speak as a barrier eliminates them from the race and prevents a grandfather whose grandson is growing up and looking potential future employer from benefiting from their for that kind of support. Many families and individuals talent, skills and experience. do not have the skills to give their grandchildren that I Social mobility is a vast concept and one that I have may have gained after many years’ experience of life. barely touched on. I feel strongly that opportunities Whatever school someone enters and whatever their must be created for our young people but, more than background, were they taught the skills that they now that, they must be able to access equally and fairly those require, and were they taught well enough to qualify for opportunities already out there and currently taken by the opportunities that they are interested in? From a such a small pool of people. young age, children need a broad and engaging national curriculum to learn the skills and qualifications on which they may later rely. I am concerned that the 4.10 pm Government’s decision to focus on a narrower range of Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): It is a great academic subjects will be to the detriment of many. A pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. balanced curriculum in which pupils are allowed to It is also a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for make their own choices is an important part of developing Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma), who illustrated perfectly experience and skills appropriate to what they might that some of the best examples of social mobility come want to do, testing different options and finding out from our immigrant community. The fact that they can what they are good at and enjoy. show so much ambition and advancement, and take I am concerned by a recent claim by the Institute for advantage of the opportunities available to them, is Fiscal Studies that Government spending on sixth-form inspirational for all of us. We should celebrate them. colleges will decline by 17.8% between now and 2015. I was struck by the speech by the right hon. Member At a time when the education-leaving age is rising, that for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), who is no longer will put even greater pressure on individual providers. in her place. Her back story illustrated that no matter Added to that is the abolition of the education maintenance how much ambition, ability and aspiration someone allowance, which in 2009-10 supported 600,000 pupils has—the desire to advance oneself—there are still barriers to stay in post-16 education or training. It will be to be hit on that journey.Even with her force of personality, replaced by a fund amounting to just 40% of the EMA’s she found some of those intimidating. For all the policy original value. Post-16 education is a vital gateway into initiatives that we can adopt, the biggest challenge is higher education or a job for many. Unquestionably, probably tackling those environmental and societal factors such vast cuts will detrimentally affect the number of that act as the biggest inhibitors to social mobility. people proceeding to higher education, the quality of My journey to this place was rather similar to the education provided or both. right hon. Lady’s. My parents also left school at 14, they Not content with that, the Government have made had me when they were very young and the first few further education cuts of 25% between now and 2015 years of my life were impoverished. We lived in a for adult learners, who must now pay up front for the two-up, two-down with no hot running water and an full cost of courses themselves or take on a fee loan. outside loo, and here I am addressing the mother of That will undoubtedly deter many adults from continuing Parliaments. Perhaps the biggest message that I got or returning to education, and will have a disproportionate from my parents growing up was, “We want your life to impact on women, who make up 64% of level 3 and be better than ours.” That message stuck with me and higher qualifications. The National Union of Students drove that ambition from an early age, which gave me cites research from the Learning and Skills Research the incentive and the belief that my life could be better Centre estimating that two thirds of learners would not than theirs. I might well be better informed on this issue consider using loans to fund learning under any than on many of the other things that I talk about in the circumstances. That move was made without adequate House. consultation, and I ask the Government to think again. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for East Thirdly, can young people freely access their chosen Hampshire (Damian Hinds). His speech, opening the opportunity? Is their chosen university or course affordable debate, was a forensic tour de force of the challenges for them and their family? Is their chosen company’s that we face. He brings the philosophical and thoughtful recruitment process open and fair? It is all well and approach, while I go for the raw practicalities, but good talking about creating career opportunities, but between all the contributions to the debate we will what about fairly distributing the opportunities already illuminate the subject and find a way to tackle some of there? the problems. Paid internships have been mentioned. As is all too The starting point for me is to define what we mean evident in Parliament, they are the only way for many to by social mobility, and we have had some discussion of gain any access to experience in politics, and in far too that. I believe it to be a society in which meritocracy is many other professions. I welcome the Government’s the key. The privilege afforded by where we are born has recent announcement that they will address the issue, always been present in British society, and we would be but I seek clear and decisive action to see it through. To naive to think that it will ever be altered. None the less, ask someone from a low-income family to travel to we should all endeavour to create those conditions in 167WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 168WH which people can achieve the best possible outcomes for and studio schools, which will encourage the development themselves. Certainly we politicians should ensure that of the wider communication skills that people need to Government have in place no active inhibitor to people attract work. As the school age is raised to 18, we have a taking advantage of their opportunities. lot more opportunity to introduce that into the curriculum. The more immediate concern is that social mobility We need to get into schools, to ensure that they are has declined in recent years. I want to dwell on some of offering every available opportunity to the pupils to the reasons for that, because often it is the unintended make the best of themselves, to meet their needs and to consequences of policies that, on the one hand, enhance allow them to excel. mobility for some but, on the other hand, make it more I want to bring a bit more personal experience into difficult for others. The performance of our education the story. As I mentioned, the key is what happens in system and the extent to which it encourages aspiration practice—setting the policy is fine, but the delivery on are crucial. the ground is what matters. This year, my little boy went My hon. Friend referred to attendance at university up to secondary school. He is doing well—the teachers as a key influence on social mobility, but I want to add a tell me that he is excelling at history and IT and he got note of caution. Of course it is important for all those the boy of the year award this week, so he is very who are academically gifted to have the opportunity to proud—but in his first term he had a lengthy period of study at university, but we also need to ensure that illness, which meant that he was absent. The school people understand that there are any number of routes wrote to me and suggested that he should be taken out to achieve given outcomes. In many cases, encouraging of his normal lessons and put on a programme that people to go to university will be a hindrance as much encouraged him to understand the need to attend school. as a help. The simple reason is that now we have so Clearly, that was not appropriate on this occasion. The many more graduates chasing an ever-tighter number of school had simply looked at attendance and thought, popular job vacancies. “Right, we’ll send a letter.” Later, when I went to parents’ evening and was told that my son was doing so We have had some discussion of internships, which I well, I said, “Okay, so what are your policies towards think have been fuelled by the rise in the number of children who are performing well and are gifted?” The graduates. The reality is that, with a bigger supply of school does not have any. It has a programme to ensure graduates, the skill set that people can demonstrate and that pupils who do not attend do attend, but it does not the connections that they have are what influence whether have programmes in place to ensure that children who they can take advantage of the opportunities. As the are doing well really excel. Schools need to look at the right hon. Lady explained, she got her law degree but needs of their pupils in their entirety. They need to look had to make 300 job applications because she was not at them on a pupil-focused basis and not treat them as part of the right network and had no one to open those numbers on a piece of paper. doors. A real risk is that we are giving many young For all our talk of policies and structures, I believe people a false perspective, because if they invest all that that people and role models will have the most decisive time and yet the job outcomes are not happening, influence on whether children really get on. In my case, maintaining their focus and ambition to continue is my eyes were opened one day at school at the end of a difficult. history lesson, when I had a robust discussion with my One of the keys is to expand people’s horizons and to history teacher about the real role and nature of ensure that we have a different series of routes to communism. He took me to one side and said, “Jackie, achieve good education and the opportunity to get on. it’s all very well you and I having these arguments In that regard, the greater emphasis on high-quality during lessons, but I think you really ought to participate technical and vocational schools that are seen as equivalent in democracy, and use that as your outlet.” With that to an academic education is crucial. I pay tribute to the one conversation my life changed, and it was because Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong that teacher had taken me to one side. I suddenly Learning, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland thought, life is not just about going through school, and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), for the enthusiasm and going to college, and becoming a secretary. I could do passion that he is bringing to rejuvenating and strengthening something different. apprenticeships. We need to see apprenticeships not We can all play a role in this. We can go into schools, only as something for school leavers but—as they can and inspire children by explaining that opportunities be and increasingly are—as the pathway to a long, are available to them, and that they do not have to intensive period of training and work, which can even follow the path their parents took. With that in mind, I take people into senior management roles. Practically want to pay tribute to some of the initiatives in my all the major wealth creators in Thurrock have not been constituency. Some of the rugby fans among us may to university—most of them started out as apprentices, have heard of Ralph Henderson MBE. He runs a and that is characteristic of what happens in industrial programme in which he takes sporting stars into schools areas. to make motivational speeches, which is a really good While many of the decision makers in government tool to encourage children to think that they can aim focus on indicators and on the number of people going for the stars, and that if they have the focus, dedication to university or on whether someone is above or below and ambition, they can get there. In a couple of weeks, I the average, I am quite relaxed about that. It is more will be sharing a platform with Derek Redmond and important that we ensure that everyone has the opportunity Ralph. Somehow I think the children will get more to follow the path that they wish to, and get good-quality inspiration from them than from me, but I will do my education and skills in doing so. best. We should support such programmes. We also need to expand the opportunities in the Mentoring is key, because young people need a secure school sector and, in that regard, I wholeheartedly environment and a relationship with people in which welcome the expansion of university technical colleges they can talk honestly and without any threat about the 169WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 170WH

[Jackie Doyle-Price] On a recent visit to Denmark with the European Scrutiny Committee, I spoke to politicians and officials opportunities open to them. The reality is that if they about pupils speaking English. We were told that 95% are on an upward trajectory they will often not get that of people in Denmark speak English. One cannot imagine from their parents. They will only hear about the things 95% of people in Britain speaking any foreign language, their parents know. We must provide every opportunity apart from those who have come here from abroad with to open the horizons and to give young people more two languages. There is something different about Britain. chance to think. I think that there are historic reasons for it, which have, The role of mentors is important to support young I think, been touched on by George Orwell and other people, and to ensure that if they show ambition they writers. We have preserved in aspic the divisions in our are challenged. When I was thinking about going to society, which go back to Shakespeare’s time. If we look university, my family, friends and neighbours asked me at “A Midsummer’s Night Dream” and the attitude of why I wanted to defer getting a job for three years when the king and others when they are watching the play I could be earning money. It takes quite a robust young within a play performed by Bottom, the weaver, we can person to say that they want to do something. Access to see that it is a case of, “Let us be nice to the simple a mentoring network is important. folk.” That social division was vast then, but it is still recognisable today. We have not changed as other societies Similarly, schools should not be dissuading people have changed. from having ambition. At my comprehensive school, no one was encouraged to apply to Oxford or Cambridge. I used to work as a research officer for the National In fact, they were actively told that it would be a waste Association of Local Government Officers and was of time. I applied to Durham university, and was told often trundled out to talk to visiting foreign groups. I that I was setting my sights a little high. In my case, that was describing British society to some social workers was more of an incentive to push on, but not everyone from Hamburg. They were very uncomfortable and is as bloody-minded as me. We must make sure that the said, “By your definition, all Germans are middle class.” poor ambition of school leaders does not hold young That was because their attitude to education and aspiration people back. are so different from ours. They do not have such deep divisions. I could go on for ever, because this is a real passion of I am chair of the all-party group on social science mine. This has been an excellent debate, and it is one of and policy. We recently had a breakfast seminar on those occasions when we illustrate that on both sides of social mobility, in which Professor Paul Gregg from the House we really care. I just wish that more people Bristol university said that the divisions within our could see debates such as this, instead of the yah-boo society are still there and that social mobility at the that goes on in the main Chamber. They would have lower level has reduced rather than increased in recent much healthier respect for politicians if they did. years. I am strongly in favour of making education the best it can be and of ensuring that everyone learns, but there are still attitudinal divisions within our society. 4.23 pm The hon. Member for Thurrock told us how her friends Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure, said, “Why are you bothering to go to university? Why Mr Rosindell, to serve under your chairmanship. I not stay with us?” My wife had the same pressures. apologise to hon. Members for not being here earlier, “You don’t want to go to school. You want to come and but I was speaking in the main Chamber in another get a job and get some money in your pocket,” they debate. It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member said, but she said, “No, I want to be a teacher.” She had for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), and I was fascinated to fight against the attitude of her social class and to hear what she had to say. Her experience was similar family. That attitude was common in those days, and is to my wife’s experience. She came from a working-class still there today. family, and passed the 11-plus. Her parents did not Bryan Gould, who was an MP many years ago, went understand what the 11-plus or GCSEs were, but she back to New Zealand because, as he said, he was so eventually went to teacher training college and became depressed about the social divisions in Britain. There a teacher. However, she would never have been able to was this attitude, he said, that somehow education was go through college had she not had two things: free “not for the likes of us”. There was deference. Instead tuition and a full grant. She would not have had any of being angry about being in a lower social class, many income from anywhere, but she received free tuition and just accepted their lot. He felt that that was deeply a full grant. That was one reason why I spoke in this conservative and very depressing. Room in 1998 to oppose the introduction of fees and Clearly, we must have the best possible education. We charges for students, and the abolition of grants. That also need to intervene to try and change our culture, remains my position even now. I believe that we should and get it across to young people that the possibilities in restore free tuition and full grants for students. life are much greater than the horizons that they are I want to talk about the deeper divisions in our looking at, and that if they do study well at school and society, which I think still exist. The churn in social have the right education, they can expand their horizons; mobility is within the top 20%, 40% or even 60%. Our they can learn a foreign language and know about society is deeply divided between the elite academic things. layer and the great mass of people who have no aspiration I have so many anecdotes to tell because I have read and very little achievement. If one looks at the OECD about this subject for a long time. In the 1980s, the statistics for educational achievement, we have the best National Institute of Economic and Social Research at the top and the worst at the bottom. Something is did a lot of research on this matter and it had an profoundly wrong with what we do with our young exchange of teachers between Moscow, in the then people in that bottom 10%. Soviet Union, and London. The Russian teachers spoke 171WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 172WH

English and were quite happy to come and teach here. We have made some terrible mistakes. The juxtaposition The English teachers could not speak Russian, but they of comprehensive education with informal teaching went to teach in Moscow. They came back and said that methods and attitudes caused the problems. One can the standard of education in Moscow was astonishing. only look at what has happened on the continent of They said that the children were doing things at 16 that Europe—I do not have much time, but I want to tell we do at university. The Russian teachers were asked hon. Members about one of my closest friends, who what they thought about the English pupils. They said, lives in France. His children go to French schools and “The children were very nice and we enjoyed teaching the rigour for six and seven-year-olds is astonishing. We them, but they didn’t appear to know anything.” We do not take that seriously. I have upset many of my have had serious problems in our education and in our wife’s dear friends. A head teacher at one of her schools culture, but people did not seem to worry about it. We said, “You’d have them all sitting quietly in rows, wouldn’t have started to do things differently. you?”, and I said, “What’s wrong with that?” It is The advocacy of the hon. Member for Rugby (Mark interesting that we are now doing it in academies. We do Pawsey) for the 11-plus and selection is mistaken. They not need to call a school “an academy” or change the were a social divider, which hived off one in five of the nature of it, we need to change what is done in the population. In my family, passing the 11-plus and going classroom in the school. to university were compulsory.My parents were academics, We need to tell young people when they are very and therefore it was expected. The thought of failure young, “You have a chance to have a life beyond your was unacceptable. That was opposite to my wife’s experience. imagining, if you follow education. There are people We can talk about such things. who started where you are now, who have a life you The 11-plus divided families and friends, and gave cannot imagine. If you talk properly and learn well, you people completely different attitudes to life and what will have a more exciting and rewarding life, in every they could expect from it. My theory, and it is only a sense, not only financially and in terms of living standards. theory, is that that division has rippled forward through A more exciting and interesting life.” Getting that across generations. Those who went to university from working- to children when they are very young is vital. We need class backgrounds became middle class and their children to say to them, “That’s why you’re going to sit down, be did the same; those who did not do so carried on with quiet and listen to me—because I’m going to make sure working-class culture. That cultural division has remained you have that good life.” with us, which is one reason why I so oppose the 11-plus. 4.35 pm Mark Pawsey: On the hon. Gentleman’s last point, why has social mobility reduced since the abolition of Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): It is a pleasure the 11-plus? to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I thank the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Kelvin Hopkins: As I said, I think that the divisions Hinds) and the right hon. Member for Salford and have rippled forward. I think that we have also failed in Eccles (Hazel Blears) for securing this important debate education. We are addressing the problem now. and for giving me my first opportunity to speak about social mobility since becoming one of the vice-chairs of Hazel Blears: We had this debate in the all-party the all-party social mobility group. group. Does my hon. Friend agree that an implication of the 11-plus and a selective system is that the more It is entirely appropriate that the debate takes place in academically able are inevitably creamed off? In the Westminster Hall, as it was here, nearly 500 years ago, past, what was left was not a comprehensive school, or that King Henry VIII’s closest aide came to put a Bill even a very good secondary school, but a secondary for the relief of the poor before Parliament. The causes modern in which the choices that young people had of poverty listed in that Bill included unemployment were often very limited and directed specifically to the and bad upbringing. It provided for a works programme kinds of jobs that they were expected to get in the long that compelled the able-bodied to work on projects such term. They did not do a foreign language or English as road building, maintenance of fortresses and harbours literature, but woodwork, metalwork and needlework. and cleansing of watercourses, in return for a fair wage. It was a very narrow curriculum, which was certainly Even child beggars were to be hired as apprentices to not good for social mobility or the country as a whole. skilled craftsmen, offering them a chance of a future that they would otherwise never have had. The proposals Kelvin Hopkins: My right hon. Friend is right, and were radical, but that quality was perhaps more pronounced those divisions have continued. They have become more because they were the brainchild of Thomas Cromwell, rigid due to the failures of our education system. who was the King’s chief Minister, Earl of Essex and What I am going to say now will annoy teachers. Master of the Rolls—but also the son of a blacksmith What I wanted from comprehensive education was a from Putney. grammar school education for everyone. We did not get We should be clear about what we mean by social it. At the same time as creating comprehensive schools, mobility. We are not talking about creating equality of we introduced informal child-centred teaching methods, income, or equality of experience. Our aim is to achieve which were a disaster. We have had two or three generations equality of opportunity and a society in which individuals of such methods, which are fine for kids from middle-class who grow up in poorer families can use their talent and families, who have books, educated parents and extra effort to move up the socio-economic ladder. The problem tuition to get them through exams, but not fine for is that people from low-income backgrounds find it working-class kids whose only chance is school. They extremely difficult to get on in life through education need rigour. We are now all talking about the need for and employment. Now, as in 1535, poverty is the greatest rigour in schools, particularly in primary education. barrier to social mobility and equality. 173WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 174WH

[Mike Crockart] Mike Crockart: I accept what my right hon. Friend is saying. The difficulty was always selling the detail of the The all-party group’s report on social mobility showed proposals. I looked at the detail of the measures and that the prospects of half of all children born in the UK there was much there to commend them and much can be almost entirely linked to their parents’ socio- improvement on what was there before. My worry was economic circumstances. Perhaps contrary to outward that this large amount known as a debt would turn perception and certainly counter to the American dream, people off. If that has not happened, because of the America and Britain have the highest intergenerational huge efforts made by many hon. Members in this place correlations between the social status of fathers and and elsewhere, that is to be welcomed, but it was a huge sons—47% in America and 50% in the UK, whereas, by concern at the time. comparison, in Denmark it is just 15% and in Australia Lots of other proposals are going ahead, such as 17%. I have no doubt that that is in large part down to universal credit and the Work programme, which the educational attainment. Joseph Rowntree Foundation has said: The BBC 1 programme “Who Do You Think You “have the potential to really move things on…and to provide a Are?” has sparked many people’s interest in examining better basis to help people into work.” their backgrounds and finding out about their I hope that our policies to ensure that the tax system is predecessors—often with surprising results. I, too, have fairer will also play their part in lessening the gap looked into my predecessors. I found it quite easy, between the richest and poorest. Other initiatives coming helped by the fact that my father, Robert Crockart, had from the youth contract aim to provide secure, fairly a father named Robert George Crockart, whose father paid jobs for people with the real prospect of progression. was Robert Crockart—you can guess the rest, Mr Rosindell. At this point, I have to state that I stand here a My father was born in Methven, a small village outside repentant sinner. On arrival at Westminster with a very Perth, and I have traced his direct predecessors back tight budget and an unforgiving Independent Parliamentary almost 400 years to the 1600s, when they all worked Standards Authority standing behind me, I did what manually on the land around Methven, so there was no everyone else was doing and took on unpaid interns. degree of geographic mobility, never mind social However, my actions sat increasingly uncomfortably mobility—yet here I stand. The only difference is education with me. Despite the quality and easy supply of people, and my being the first in my family to achieve a degree—and it was simply indefensible to me to give opportunity in not even that good a degree, it has to be said. That is such a way that only a small minority of people were only one example, but one that I am sure is repeated able to take advantage of it. I now have two paid many hundreds of times across the country. That is why apprentices, both of whom are sitting in the Public I regard access to education and especially higher education Gallery today: one is from the Speaker’s parliamentary as key in this debate. placement scheme and one from the parliamentary Two days ago, as part of my party’s attempts to academy’s new deal of the mind. I urge all hon. Members increase representative diversity, I was shadowed by a here and others who read Hansard tomorrow to find potential Liberal Democrat candidate from a poor out about such schemes to widen opportunities to people background, who blogged about the experience afterwards who, because of their background, would not normally and reminded me of a certain quote: be able to take up positions here. As I say, those people “I believe that access to higher education is a key enabler of could not be here if they were not paid. The good side social mobility and the best way to narrow the gap between the of that is that my conscience is now at peace once again. richest and poorest in society.” I am doing what I can to help in my constituency. A It is a wonderful quote. It is from me. I do not want to similar scheme to that outlined by the right hon. Member open old wounds, but those words were written in my for Salford and Eccles has joined with the Department letter of resignation from Government over the increase for Work and Pensions, Skills Development Scotland in tuition fees. I did so not because of any pledge, but and Edinburgh Guarantee, which is run by the local because of a personal understanding that knowing that council, to work with approximately 50 employers so a figure indicated a contingent liability rather than an far to create 100 paid training places for young people actual debt was a differentiation that would be lost on in 100 days. Youthcontract funding makes such initiatives many young people from backgrounds like mine. possible, and I urge hon. Members to get involved. Nevertheless, I think the Government are right to As the report on the seven key truths about social view the problem more widely and to take a life-cycle mobility states, the fact remains that approach by examining issues and interventions from “the point of greatest leverage is at 0-3.” the early years all the way through to adulthood. Things such as a child’s development score at just 22 months can serve as an accurate predictor of educational The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David outcomes at 26 years of age. Boys deemed to be at risk Willetts): The hon. Gentleman rightly expresses the by nurses were two and a half times as likely to have anxieties that people had at the time of our tuition fee criminal convictions as those in the not-at-risk group by and loan proposals. Does he take some encouragement the age of 21. It is clear that we must do much more to from the UCAS evidence that applications from school identify those at risk, intervene and ensure that they leavers and 18-year-olds at college have barely fallen? reach their potential. Indeed, we are running at the second highest rate of I am anxious to allow the person speaking after me to applications ever, and, in particular, we cannot find any have the full 10 minutes, so I will skip ahead and sum up differential fall in applications. If anything, applications by saying that social mobility is not only a matter of from young people from low-income backgrounds have justice or fairness to individuals. Our country as a held up slightly better than those from other groups. whole would benefit massively from increasing the fluidity 175WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 176WH of our society.When people are excluded from opportunities includes me, even though it was the day after my because of their background, we waste their talent and 54th birthday that I graduated. In 1967, when I left potential to contribute to our society in a meaningful Havelock school in Grimsby, there was no thought that way. We also risk being hugely out of touch with the I would go to university. My parents had pushed me majority of people if politicians, chief executives, judges, into accepting—somewhat reluctantly—that I would leading business figures and civil servants all have similar stay on at school from 15 to 16 and do that extra year. backgrounds, life experience and beliefs. Ninety per That enabled me to take both CSEs and O-levels, which cent of MPs elected in 2010—my intake—went to university, is interesting in view of the current debate on that and more than a third of them attended either Oxford subject, which I will return to shortly. or Cambridge. That contrasts with the general population: As has been said, in the 1960s and 1970s the opportunities according to 2010 figures, only 31% of working-age for people to go to university were extremely limited. adults in England were educated to university level. Not only was there no thought of my going to Oxbridge, In the 21st century, we are still discussing the issue but there was no thought of going to university full-stop. that Thomas Cromwell’s draft Bill sought to address— I progressed to the Grimsby college of technology, as it changing the life chances of those born into poverty. was then called, and did a business studies course. Let this Parliament tackle the lack of social mobility in Thankfully, I was granted day release by my first employer the UK with the same revolutionary zeal that he did— to help me to do that course. That was the way forward although perhaps without the beheading. Today’s debate for many people from a background like mine. is a good start. The school I attended—Havelock school in Grimsby— was a bilateral school. It had both a grammar stream 4.45 pm and a secondary stream under the same roof, and there Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Thank you, was movement between the two. I would say that, in Mr Rosindell, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to reality, it was a perfect comprehensive. I was a borderline speak under your chairmanship. case in the 11-plus, as in so many things. My parents were somewhat disappointed, but they managed to I join others in congratulating my hon. Friend the secure an interview with the headmaster at Havelock in Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) on securing the hope that I could get into its S-stream—the special the debate. I also congratulate the members of the stream for borderline cases. Pupils could either stay in all-party group on social mobility who contributed to that stream or move into the grammar or the secondary the report. I apologise that I was not present for the stream. Those who were not particularly good at geography, whole of the opening speech; like the hon. Member for for example, could take a CSE in that subject, but take Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), I was taking part in the an O-level in English if they were good at that. That debate in the main Chamber. However, I attended the arrangement seems to me the perfect bridge between launch of the all-party group’s report a few weeks ago, the competing sides in the argument about grammar so I have heard the full presentation, as it were, and schools and two-tier exams. Not only did the school taken note of it. instil discipline—it was a disciplined environment—but Social mobility is a fascinating subject and one in it opened pupils’ eyes to opportunities. By present-day which I am particularly interested. We have heard so standards, the opportunities were limited—there was many life stories this afternoon that I almost expected no real thought of 99% of the pupils going on to someone—I nearly said Eamonn Andrews, but that university—but the thought was instilled in them that would show my age—to appear, holding a red book and they could progress beyond going to work “down t’dock”, saying, “This is your life.” Hearing those stories has as we said in Grimsby. been truly fascinating and they have added greatly to the quality of the debate. To digress for a moment, when we talk about declining education standards, I often wonder whether standards My main aim in speaking today is to contribute to were all that high back then. A great many people in the the debate one particular thought about our school Grimsby and Cleethorpes area simply went to work system, so I will not detain the House long. First, down on the docks, in the fishing industry, and down however, so as to avoid disappointing hon. Members the road in Scunthorpe, the industry was steel. Those and to help to explain my take on social mobility, I will industries mopped up an enormous amount of unskilled give a quick resumé of where I come from. labour, so the quality of education was never really Like many who have spoken today, I came from a tested. working-class background. I was born in Cleethorpes, Returning to my main theme, I wanted to throw into never dreaming that I would eventually become the the argument the possibility of having bilateral schools—of Member of Parliament for that town. Like my hon. perhaps allowing education authorities to consider that Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), possibility and giving academies the freedom to form I lived in a two-up, two-down rented property. When themselves into that structure. It is important that we my parents were eventually allocated a council house in extend social mobility across the board. Everyone needs neighbouring Grimsby, they thought they were moving opportunities, and schools are vital to providing them. into Buckingham palace. Interestingly enough, and seemingly contrary to what we have been saying, we are living proof that social mobility does exist. The point, of course, is that it does not exist as widely as we would 4.52 pm all like it to. Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, (Mike Crockart) spoke about the percentage of the new Mr Rosindell, as it was to serve under that of Mr Hollobone intake of MPs who went to university. That percentage earlier. 177WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 178WH

[Shabana Mahmood] be much wider than they might think, might be told or might realise. He made the important link—something This is an extremely important subject, and I congratulate discussed in the all-party group report—between social the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) mobility and teaching standards. and my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing the debate, and on confessed to having given unpaid internships in his their excellent introduction, which helped to set it in a office—I am glad he has moved towards paid ones—which wide context. I pay tribute to the work of the all-party raises the wider point of what we as Members of the group on social mobility, and its excellent report, “7 Key House of Commons can do to promote internships Truths about Social Mobility”, which has done much to going to people from a wider range of social backgrounds. inform the debate, both in Parliament and beyond. Finally, the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin The debate has been excellent and wide-ranging, with Vickers) reflected that the individual life stories of the passionate speeches on both sides. The hon. Member Members who have spoken today have informed the for East Hampshire set, as I said, a strong context for debate and brought to life the issues that we are considering. the debate, and made the point that at each stage of the That is important—particularly so with social mobility, education and employment spectrum it is normal to above almost any other topic—because, as parliamentarians, blame the previous stages for social mobility problems. we bring our life experience to what we debate. I can relate to that—I am sure that the Minister can too—because in my conversations about university I have a slight temptation to focus my remarks only admissions with vice-chancellors, they often say, with on the relationship between higher education and social some justification, that what counts is what goes on mobility, given that both the Minister and I have a before, rather than just what happens when they get education brief. I will do my best, however, to resist that involved. temptation and to focus on some of the wider points as well. My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles made a powerful speech, in which she touched In government, Labour did a lot to begin to fracture on the importance of personal skills, confidence, resilience the link between people’s history and their destiny. Our and emotional well-being, which I will deal with towards policies focused on extending the ladders of opportunity, the end of my speech. That is a much under-discussed especially through the Sure Start programme and the part of the wider debate. I am also glad that she was right to free early-years education, which is important able to get back to the firm that so cruelly rejected her. because we know—as the all-party group confirms—that Given that she went on to become a Secretary of State, the point of greatest leverage for social mobility is what that is a great example of social justice in action. happens between birth and the age of three. We dramatically increased support for schools with disadvantaged pupils, The hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) so the gaps in attainment between those from more and made a plea for financial education, which I endorse, less advantaged backgrounds started to narrow. A recent although I must confess that I am not sure that I could university of Bristol study showed that family background do the sums he set out in his speech without the aid of a had less influence on the results of those who took calculator—given the looks on the faces of some of the GCSEs in 2006 than it did on those who took the other hon. Members present, I am not sure they could equivalent exams in 1986. The education maintenance either. allowance also dramatically increased participation rates I welcome the involvement of my hon. Friend the post-16, and all of that sat alongside the expansion of Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) higher education and the cementing of a widening in the all-party group. Many of the issues that afflict her participation agenda, which helped to make real gains constituency also afflict mine. She is right that poverty in social mobility. should not mean a poverty of ambition, and we should We made progress, but certainly not enough, and all take that point forward. there is a long way to go. I am concerned that the The hon. Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) spoke cumulative effect of some of the Government’s current powerfully about support for troubled families. He also policies in education and higher education will set us on spoke about grammar schools, and in Birmingham we a backwards trend, with long-lasting and damaging also still have a grammar school system—I failed the consequences for social mobility. When the Minister 11-plus, which is a badge I wear with great pride. He responds, I will be grateful if he can tell us more about made the important point that university is not the only what the Government are doing to ensure that that is route to social mobility, and we should celebrate other not the case in relation to four specific areas of policy. routes and life choices. First, in my experience—my hon. Friend the Member My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall for Hackney South and Shoreditch made the same (Mr Sharma) reflected powerfully on his own experiences point—the removal of the EMA remains the biggest as someone not born in this country. I was struck by issue for young people in my constituency, directly what the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) affecting their ability to participate in education post-16. told us about her parents saying, when she was younger, that they wanted her life to be better than theirs. That is Hazel Blears: My hon. Friend raises the issue about a key point for all parliamentarians, and one reason the education maintenance allowance, which we have why we get into this work is our desire to see the current discussed in the all-party parliamentary group. I am generation do better than the one before it. sure that she is aware that in Salford, several thousand My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin young people were in receipt of the EMA. The situation Hopkins) spoke about the cultural change needed to get now is that our local college has had to replace the across to young people that their horizons are and can EMA from its own reserves. It can manage to do that 179WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 180WH for a period of two years, but that is about to expire. As for ensuring that all young people know of the opportunities soon as the EMA was taken away, we saw the numbers that are open to them. Providing the right support can of young people staying on at 16 decrease quite dramatically. make the difference to young people in determining As we used to be the worst place in the country for their future pathway. Proper information, advice and post-16 education, I share her concerns about the allowance, guidance should not be exclusively available to young and I welcome her pressing the Minister on the matter. I people from better-off backgrounds. The Government hope that she will continue to do so. must ask themselves whether the changes that they have introduced will ensure that proper advice and guidance Shabana Mahmood: I thank my right hon. Friend for is there for the many and not just the few. There will be that intervention. She is absolutely right and her a gap in provision this summer as the funding for constituency experience accords exactly with my own. Connexions has finished, but the replacement for schools Young people in my constituency use the EMA to pay will not be coming online until September. for their travel—to be able physically to get to their place of learning—and books. I was really struck by the David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I was listening speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney very carefully to the hon. Lady’s comments and to the South and Shoreditch when she said that somebody catalogue of emerging policy. One of the elephants in used it to pay for their electricity key, which shows the the room on social mobility in our country is that we different ways that the allowance was used and how have a two-tier education system, with quite a high damaging it is that it has now been lost. We will continue proportion of children going to independent schools to press the Government on the impact on participation and boarding schools. Much of that is allowed through rates of the removal of EMA. tax subsidy or tax allowances. What is the Labour We have already touched on the second policy area—that party’s position on the efficacy of that tax allowance in is unsurprising given the higher education element of terms of social mobility? my role—which is the trebling of tuition fees. Although almost all the attention is focused on 18-year-old would-be graduates, one of my biggest concerns is the impact on Shabana Mahmood: I am not going to make tax mature students taking first degrees. The number of policy on the hoof, but I would like to get to a position those applications is down 11.9%. Mature students where independent and private schools are redundant making the decision to improve their life chances by because the same sort of education and quality of going to university were largely responsible for the education is available in the state sector. gains that were made in widening participation in higher To finish my point about information, advice and education, and they are one of the main reasons why we guidance, there is real concern that good advice will not got so close to the 50% target set by the previous go to the most disadvantaged and those who need it Labour Government for participation in higher education. most. Much of the work will now be done online, but The important point that was raised in the debate today we must recognise the importance not just of innovative as well as in the all-party group’s report is that our high-quality and low-cost solutions, but the face-to-face social mobility story should not end at 18. What happens element in the provision of advice and guidance. I later is important, too, and the ability of mature students endorse what my right hon. Friend the Member for to go back into university is an important part of that. Salford and Eccles said about the Government being able to learn more from organisations such as Future Meg Hillier: In my constituency, we have seen a trend First, and schools throughout the country that are in which children are doing better at school, which is drawing on alumni to inspire and raise their pupils’ great news, but at 18 a lot of young women from aspirations. particular backgrounds are getting good results and then dropping out. That is one reason why UBS bank As I said at the beginning of my speech, I will not helped to support an event that I held for young women. focus only on the brief that I shadow, because the There is a cohort who are going off without a career debate is much wider. Social mobility is not just about path and then having to get back on to a career path changing the odds of young people from poor backgrounds after they have had children, which is much more difficult. making it to university. We must improve opportunities That illustrates my hon. Friend’s point. for those who do not make it to university. We must get away from the thinking that there is only one kind of Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is right. There is success or only one pathway to success, and that everything the drop-off, and then the difficult decision to get back else is a failure of some kind. in is really important. One of the biggest problems in our society is our We have seen the Government axe the Aimhigher collective and automatic assumption that if something scheme that was designed to widen participation in is different it must be either better or worse. That holds higher education. I am concerned that the national us back, and the way in which we perpetuate class in our scholarship programme will not be an adequate replacement country is unnecessary baggage and very depressing. I for it in money terms and that it also disadvantages would like to get rid of that, and two things jump out at universities that recruit a large number of students from me in relation to it: the value that we give to vocational backgrounds in which we want to widen participation. education, and entrepreneurship. The programme is also based only on data in relation to First, vocational study should never be treated as a free school meals, which misses out those who come second-class option. The Government have a role to from further education colleges and also mature students play in bringing that about, but the attitude of society Finally, let me turn to the changes in the provision of as a whole is as important. I cannot help but be jealous information, advice and guidance. High-quality and of the position in Germany where middle-class parents accessible information, advice and guidance is crucial boast about their kids doing great apprenticeships. 181WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 182WH

[Shabana Mahmood] they might have anyway, but the skill of faking confidence when they do not feel it. That is incredibly important. We should do more to get to a place where vocational The techniques include taking a deep breath before education is just as much a gold standard as academic entering a room and looking people in the eye. They education. We must make sure that there are good also need to be physically robust in order to make their opportunities to switch between the two. presence felt and to not be intimidated. What we call Secondly, entrepreneurship has an important role to soft skills are not soft at all—if people do not have play in increasing and improving social mobility. My them, they are hard. It is difficult for people to take boss, the shadow Secretary of State for Business, Innovation such things on board if they have not been a part of and Skills, recently made a speech about the link between their previous experience. I would like us to think more entrepreneurship and social mobility. He told a powerful deeply about what more we can do to bring those things story of his father, who came to this country from about. Nigeria in the 1960s, and set up his own business. That In conclusion, it is clear that we have to intensify and gave his father opportunities that were denied to him broaden our approach to social mobility in the future, elsewhere. It is clear that entrepreneurship has more of not just because social justice demands it, but because a role to play. I am pleased to see an increasing number our capacity for economic growth requires it. of universities focusing on enterprise opportunities for their graduates and undergraduates, but we should guard 5.12 pm against the “graduatisation” of entrepreneurship. It The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David should remain an opportunity that is open to all in our Willetts): Thank you, Mr Rosindell, for chairing the society. debate; I also thank Mr Hollobone, who was in I want to pick up on the importance of the points the Chair before you. I congratulate my hon. Friend the made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) and and Eccles about skills around confidence, emotional the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel well-being and personal resilience—the so-called public Blears) on doing an excellent job in bringing together school confidence skills—by reflecting on my experience. the all-party group on social mobility. As hon. Members can see, I am an Asian woman. I am My hon. Friend’s opening speech was excellent and also a practising and observant Muslim. That is an included some great truths. It is true, for example, that important part of my identity and how I choose to live everyone in the education system blames people in the my life. I was born and raised in Small Heath in stage behind for the problems that they face. I completely Birmingham, which is a very diverse city where many recognise that observation. He was also right to challenge people who look like me live. In Small Heath particularly, some issues relating to social mobility, as was the right many people are like me and believe in the same God as hon. Lady. I do. The local school I went to had lots of people like Perhaps the most interesting thing about this debate me. I went to a different school to do A-levels, and it has been not so much the front-of-house stuff, but the was more mixed, but there were still plenty of people back story—the personal accounts that we have heard like me. Nothing in my previous life experience had from several Members of their own experiences. I will prepared me for my first night as a law undergraduate at not share my complete personal back story, but I will Oxford, where I was the only non-white face in the say that a lot of my family also came from Small Heath junior common room. I was certainly the only Muslim in Birmingham, and one of these days I will compare woman in the whole college, which had an undergraduate notes with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood body of 300. For someone to enter a room and find that (Shabana Mahmood) on Birmingham and the trades in they are the only one of their kind is a weird experience, which my family worked. even if they are self-confident, as I am. Apart from being weird, I also found it intimidating. It took me a I want to pick up on some of the important points solid month before I could enter any room in my raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire, college, such as the JCR or the hall for meals, without which are captured in the excellent report, “Seven Key taking a deep breath and saying a silent prayer, Truths about Social Mobility”, which combines the best features of a think-tank pamphlet and a McKinsey When I was qualifying to be a barrister, I experienced PowerPoint presentation. He lists seven truths and I the same thing on my first day as a pupil barrister in recognise a lot of them, but I would challenge him on chambers, although this time it did not take me a month two points in his report. The first is the statement: to normalise to being the only one of my kind. It took “The point of greatest leverage for social mobility is what me only a couple of weeks, which was a good downward happens between the ages of 0 and 3”. trajectory because, by the time I got to Parliament, it I realise that that is very much the view nowadays, as a meant that I was not afraid. In fact, it had become a result of which we have a different pattern of spending depressingly normal part of my existence. in Britain from the OECD average, with more spent on I raise that point because, while I was at university, early years and less on other stages of the education I was involved in the Oxford access scheme. When I process. We must beware of becoming Calvinists who graduated, I taught as a volunteer at a supplementary think that everything is determined by early-year school. I have done lots of mentoring of young people experiences. The Government’s approach in our report from my kind of background—my race background, on social mobility, “Opening Doors, Breaking Barriers”, my religious background and my socio-economic is to look at each stage of the life cycle. My hon. Friend background—and the one thing that I always try to the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) made an focus them on is not how to do the interview or the important point about going to university and graduating application, but a sense of self-confidence, by which I at the age of 54. It is a reminder that nobody’s fate is mean not just innate confidence in themselves, which determined by their earlier experience. 183WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 184WH

People have the opportunity to break free and take medical and accountancy professions are desperate to the initiative. I meet exceptional examples of that. To reach out to the range of talent across the country, take a classic case, a lone parent, perhaps aged about 30, regardless of background. who left school at 16 and has been busy raising kids, The right hon. Lady asked three specific questions, begins to think about what they will do with the rest of which I will briefly respond to. She talked about what their lives just when their kids are at secondary school was happening to widen the networks of people from or even older. They suddenly think, “With my experience, the poorest backgrounds. There are limits to what I could be a social worker, join the police or become a Governments can do, but we will launch the new Inspiring nurse.” They want to go to college and university to get the Future programme next month, following the success the qualification to enable them to do that. That is the of Speakers for Schools. It aims to get into schools, kind of opportunity we need to continue to provide. especially in the more deprived areas; people from a There is an interaction between the different stages of range of careers and jobs will open kids’ eyes to what social mobility, in that often one of the best things that we the possibilities are. We already have 800 volunteers—people can do for a child aged nought to three is provide further who have achieved something, who know about a job or higher education for their parent. The experience of and who can explain it persuasively. the parent having an opportunity as a mature student is On internships and unpaid internships, and going often an incredible investment in the child as well. Toprovide back to the right hon. Lady’s pressure for networks, higher-quality early-year experiences, it is important internships have become an important part of routes that we have better qualified staff in child care, which in into work. Therefore, we have kept the Graduate Talent turn requires further investment in apprenticeships and Pool, which began under the previous Labour Government; college and university courses. The more I look at it, the I have confirmed this week that we are keeping it for more I am persuaded of the interaction between experiences three years. It is a web-based service with information at different stages, rather than a special priority for one on internships for people who might not otherwise be stage. part of a network that provides them with such information. I agree with the vast majority of the report, but I am Since its launch, the site has carried 47,000 vacancies trying to identify some areas of challenge. I agree that from 6,000 employers, and 73,000 graduates have registered. university is the top determinant of later opportunities, Due to concerns about the exploitation of interns, we so pre-18 attainment is key. It gives people an important have made it clear in a recent update of the site that we opportunity. The debate in Britain about what follows is have added a quality assurance process for any new sometimes rather fraught. There are two extremes. In vacancy, to ensure that it offers a graduate-level internship the Chinese model, everybody sits an exam at 18, and opportunity and complies with minimum wage regulations. those with the top 100 marks go to the university of Beijing, the next 100 go to Shanghai, the next 100 go More widely, I assure the right hon. Lady that we are somewhere else and everything is ranked by the marks. clear about minimum wage obligations. If something is The other extreme is the American model, where employment, with the obligations that come with Harvard or Princeton mould the class. Ivy league universities employment, such as set hours when people are expected have a view about the mix of people they want. They to attend the workplace, the minimum wage applies. look for people who play sport and those who do not. The Government are conducting a targeted enforcement They think about ethnic mix, alumnae and donors. operation in sectors where internships are commonplace There is a host of criteria. Someone must have reached and where we are aware of advertisements for unpaid a certain academic level, of course, but the institutions work experience. are explicit: they are moulding the class because they The right hon. Lady’s third and final question was think that doing so moulds the future of America. It about great employers. helps to shape the people who will govern and have Hazel Blears: Before the Minister leaves the subject leadership roles in America. of internships, I should say that I asked about the In Britain, we are somewhere in between. I am a current anomalous situation whereby it is still lawful to complete meritocrat on this issue, but I do not think advertise unpaid internships that are clearly jobs with that a university in Britain has ever simply used the set hours. That seems to be a contradiction in terms: if marks at A-level as the only criterion; they also try to it is unlawful to have the job unless it is paid the assess who has the greatest ability to benefit from going minimum wage, I cannot for the life of me understand to university. One encouraging thing about university is why advertising such placements, which on the face of it that, if anything, it is the first stage of the education contravene national minimum wage legislation, is permitted. process where people from more disadvantaged Will he look at the issue of advertising for such posts? backgrounds outperform, rather than underperform. That is something that universities take into account Mr Willetts: I will look at the issue but, because of when they look at how to maximise people’s chances of our commitment to freedom of speech in this country, getting a good degree—a first or a 2:1. the regulation of what we can say or advertise is rather My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire different from the regulation of the minimum wage, for made an excellent speech. He made a series of shrewd instance. We have a higher and more demanding criterion observations, which we will draw on as we develop our before we say, “This form of communication is banned.” social mobility strategy. The right hon. Member for When we are aware of advertisements for unpaid work Salford and Eccles also made an excellent speech, with a experience, and when it looks as if a sector has become shocking example of social attitudes: the solicitor who particularly active with those, we engage in targeted nearly offered her a job, but did not. I hope I am not enforcement through Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. complacent, but I think—and hope—that that view of On businesses, I refer briefly to the social mobility the world has long since gone. In my experience, including business compact that we have introduced. Some chairing the group on access to the professions, the legal, 140 businesses have signed up already, involving 2.5 million 185WH Social Mobility28 JUNE 2012 Social Mobility 186WH

[Mr Willetts] in my intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West, despite the fears that people had about employees. That is absolutely to do with businesses our fee proposals, the evidence so far from applications committing themselves to drawing on the widest range is encouraging. of talents. My party—the Conservative Opposition, as it then Let me refer to some of the other lively contributions was—was afraid that people would be put off applying to the debate, including from my hon. Friend the Member when the then Labour Government introduced the £3,000 for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on apprenticeships, fees in 2005, and that is one reason why we voted which were also brought up by my hon. Friend the against the measures. The evidence, however, was that Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart). We are the £3,000 fees did not have the feared effect, and that absolutely clear that higher education should not be gave us some confidence that with a fees and loan seen as the only route into a well paid job. It is important system, in which no student had to pay up front, we that the classic, vocational route is available. could avoid such fears. The number of 18-year-olds is Indeed, one of the things that I am doing in the falling, due to a decline in the birth rate in the early ’90s. working group on access to the professions is to see Allowing for the slight fall in the size of that cohort, the whether we can reopen some of those non-graduate number of university applications from school leavers is routes into accountancy or law that used to exist and down by about 2%, but the fall among school leavers were perfectly legitimate in the past. Nowadays, they from the poorest backgrounds is, if anything, rather might involve employers at some point down the track less. We take some encouragement from that. sponsoring one of their employees through university Finally, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for East as a mature student, to get some extra qualifications in Hampshire that the debate has been valuable. I am finance or law—mature students who have already done sorry that it has not been possible to cover all the some practical work as an employee might get even excellent comments, but we will certainly draw on them more out of the university course. as we develop the Government’s social mobility strategy. We are doing our best, working with the professions 5.28 pm that will ultimately decide, to ensure that those routes are opened up again. My hon. Friend the Member for Damian Hinds: This has been an excellent debate, and Thurrock rightly referred to the work of my excellent an opportunity to consider a wide range of issues, colleague, the Minister for Further Education, Skills including work with troubled families, rigour at school, and Lifelong Learning. The Government’s record in celebrating vocational routes, the role of student finance, expanding apprenticeships is evidence that we really are and “HR, not social responsibility” at work, as the hon. committed to them. We are way ahead of our target, Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) having added more than 200,000 apprenticeships since said. the coalition took office. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie I am not sure whether I should stray into the remarks Doyle-Price) reminded us of the power of individuals on grammar schools made by my hon. Friends the and the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) and for Thurrock, reminded us of the crucial importance of one particular but I will just very briefly observe that what worked in individual who appears in many of our personal stories: the past as a device for social mobility does not necessarily mum. She is the person who not only tells us that we can work today. In Birmingham, I did sit the 11-plus, in the be all we want to be, but is there to make damned sure days when all of us, at every local primary school, sat in that we do whatever we need to do to get there. I am our rows of desks and did the exam. Nowadays, there is sure that we have all been struck by the personal stories, more tuition for the 11-plus, and more people who go to including the shadow Minister’s, and I will never forget private schools up to the age of 11 to get themselves the story of the man with the half-moon glasses. I hope taught to pass the exam. that the stories remind us of some of the ways in which we have made great progress as a society on things such Although we respect the decision in parts of the as racial and crass class prejudice. country to keep grammar schools, the evidence is that I have been inspired—I hope that other Members the number of children from low-income backgrounds have, too—by the work done by the many organisations, who pass the 11-plus in those areas and go to grammar including PRIME, Future First and the Sutton Trust, schools has, sadly, declined. It might be that the schools and by many individual schools and teachers. What do not work in the way they used to—as an opportunity— fellow Members are doing on apprenticeships, financial and that is one reason why the Government do not education and kids without careers is also inspiring. propose a return to selective education. Within schools, streaming and setting are, of course, very effective devices. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing us to have this debate, and I particularly thank the This has been a wide-ranging debate, and I have tried Minister for the incredibly detailed and thoughtful way not to focus solely on higher education, but I absolutely in which he directly addressed a number of the points agree with the points about mature students, and it was that came up. He reminded us of how all the different great to have at least one such student identify himself. issues interact, and that if we get everything right the We should not think of higher education as something whole will be that much greater than the sum of the that people do just at the age of 18. parts. We have been reminded of how much there is to When we consider the evidence from UCAS applications, do, but also of the size of the opportunity. we look particularly carefully at what has been happening with mature students. There was a bit of a surge in their 5.30 pm numbers two or three years ago, and it is a bit early to Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order say whether there is an underlying pattern, but, as I said No. 10(11)). 21WS Written Ministerial Statements28 JUNE 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS Written Ministerial DEFENCE Statements Reserves (Call-Out Order)

Thursday 28 June 2012 The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey): With the expiry of the call-out order made on 1 May 2011, a new order has been made under section 56(1 )(a) of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS continue to be called out into permanent service as part of the United Kingdom’s contribution to the United Nations Forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP). Industrial Development Act 1982 The new order is effective until 28 June 2013. Some 54 reservists are currently called out in support of UNFICYP. All 54 are serving in Cyprus. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I would like to inform the House that the Government are today publishing a National Employer Advisory Board response to the consultation on modernising the Industrial Development Act 1982 (IDA). This confirms the Government intention to remove the automatic 100% The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence assisted area status of Northern Ireland and to make a (Mr Andrew Robathan): In accordance with the Cabinet number of more technical revisions to update the IDA. Office’s guidance on public bodies, a review of the A revised IDA, updated to reflect current economic National Employer Advisory Board (NEAB) has been realities, will provide maximum flexibility for addressing commissioned and work will commence in July 2012. economic disparities across the whole of the United NEAB is an advisory non-departmental public body, Kingdom when drawing up the assisted areas map for sponsored by the Ministry of Defence (MOD), which 2014-20 and when offering aid. provides informed but independent advice to Ministers Removing Northern Ireland’s automatic assisted area and the MOD about how it can most effectively gain status will not in itself mean Northern Ireland losing its and maintain the support of the employers of Britain’s 100% coverage under the Commission’s regional aid reserve forces. The review will consider the effectiveness guidelines and new assisted areas map for 2014-20. The of how the functions of the NEAB are currently delivered, UK Government will work with the Northern Ireland whether there is a need for the function and for the Executive to get the best outcome from the European advisory NDPB to continue, and if so, how the function level discussions and there will be further consultation might best be delivered in future. on the new UK assisted area map. The review is due to be completed later this year and A copy of the response document will be placed in I shall inform the House of its outcome. the Libraries of both Houses and is available electronically on the BIS website: http://www.bis.gov.uk/Consultations/revision-of- industrial-development-act-1982 EDUCATION

Education Reform TREASURY

The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): VAT (Anomalies) I am today announcing the final arrangements for funding schools from 2013-14. This provides a vital step towards a national funding formula, which will create a The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David funding system that is fair, logical and distributes extra Gauke): HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is today funding towards pupils who need it the most. publishing its summary of responses to the consultation We inherited a situation where there was inequality in “VAT: Addressing Borderline Anomalies”. The consultation, the funding of schools, with similar schools or pupils in launched on 21 March 2012, closed on 18 May 2012 and different locations attracting different levels of funding. nearly 1,500 responses were received. The Government I am determined to end this inequality and to create a have set out some amendments to the initial proposals fair and transparent system of funding for schools. and further details are contained within the response In March, I announced my intention to introduce a document. new national funding formula for schools during the The changes to the VAT rules will be enacted through next spending review period. This will ensure that similar a new schedule to be introduced at the Report stage of pupils, no matter where they go to school in the country, the Finance Bill. attract similar levels of funding. To pave the way for The summary of responses document is available on this broader reform, I set out my intention to simplify HMRC’s website and copies have been placed in the the local funding arrangements for 2013-14 and consulted Libraries of both Houses. on some of those arrangements. I also announced a 23WS Written Ministerial Statements28 JUNE 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS new approach to high needs funding that will help to We encourage all international partners to commit at improve transparency, quality and choice for young Tokyo to stand by Afghanistan for the long-term and people and their families. provide concrete aid pledges for at least the period up to Following that consultation, I am today publishing 2017. The Afghan Government will have to demonstrate a document—“School Funding Reform: Arrangements clearly that they are serious about fighting corruption for 2013-14”—which confirms my final decisions. Copies and making key policy reforms, to persuade the of this document will be placed in the House Libraries. international community to continue to provide assistance. These new arrangements will move us towards a funding On 13 May, the Afghan Government announced the system which promotes choice and raises quality. third tranche of areas to enter transition. Once tranche The announcement today provides the detail necessary three begins, 75% of the Afghan population will be to enable school budgets to be determined on a clearer living in areas where ANSF have lead security responsibility. and more transparent basis. It is a significant part in Tranche three, which includes a number of challenging our continuing reform of the way schools are funded areas, will include Nahr-e Saraj, the third and final area and will help us achieve our objective of raising the within the UK’s area of operation to begin transition. aspirations and attainment of all pupils. Lashkar Gah and Nad-e-Ali entered transition in tranches one and two respectively. Transition in these tranches has progressed well, with ANSF capability continuing to improve. The process remains on track for transition to complete in all areas of the country by the end of FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE 2014. I am placing the report in the Library of the House. It will also be published on the Foreign and Commonwealth Afghanistan Office website (www.fco.gov.uk).

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Overseas Territories Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth International Development, is today publishing the 18th Affairs (Mr William Hague): Today I am publishing the progress report on developments in Afghanistan since Government’s White Paper on the “Overseas Territories: November 2010. Security, Success and Sustainability”. This is the first review of the overseas territories since 1999 and it is the At the NATO summit in Chicago on 20 and 21 May, culmination of two years work and consultation. the international community demonstrated its enduring support to Afghanistan beyond the end of security We came to Government determined to renew and transition. International security assistance force (ISAF) strengthen relationships with the overseas territories. partners delivered on the commitments made at the Our historical links go back more than four centuries. Bonn conference with credible financial contributions The territories comprise a quarter of a million people to sustain the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) and 90% of the biodiversity of the UK and territories beyond the withdrawal of ISAF troops. They also agreed combined. They are valued constituent parts of the realm NATO’s long-term role in Afghanistan up to and beyond and we have a responsibility to ensure their security and 2014. The summit sent a clear message to the Afghan good governance. We also want them to be vibrant and people that we will not abandon them. It also sent a flourishing communities that proudly retain aspects of clear message to the insurgency that they cannot wait us their British identity. This means upholding their rights out. The summit communiqué reaffirmed NATO’s of self-determination, helping them become economically commitment to full implementation of United Nations independent and able to generate opportunities for their Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1325 on women, people, and protecting their extraordinary environmental peace and security. It also endorsed a strategic progress heritage. report to make UNSCR 1325 an integral part of NATO-led The Government take these responsibilities very seriously. operations and missions. The White Paper has been developed across Government At Chicago, partners also noted the progress in security Departments and in consultation with the people and transition and welcomed the recent announcement of Governments of the territories. It sends an important tranche three in May. They looked ahead to the mid-2013 signal of long-term commitment and engagement. It milestone, the point at which the fifth and final tranche focuses on three goals and practical measures to achieve is expected to begin and the ANSF will take on lead them. security responsibility across the country. When transition First, it seeks to strengthen engagement between the completes at the end of 2014, the ANSF will have full United Kingdom and the territories. We want to deepen security responsibility and ISAF will move away from a our co-operation and share expertise more widely. At a combat role. Government level, for the first time all Departments My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for have agreed that they will take a lead in engaging with International Development will attend the Tokyo conference the territories in their respective areas of competence. on 8 July. It is vital for the Tokyo conference to deliver Each has written its own paper on its work with the much-needed aid commitments. This will complement territories. We are launching a jubilee programme to the security commitments made at Chicago, to ensure support the exchange of expertise between public servants Afghanistan continues to develop long after international in the territories and the UK. We also want to build troops have departed. stronger links at political level. We are determined that 25WS Written Ministerial Statements28 JUNE 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS the agenda set out in the White Paper will be driven The market reports are designed by the CQC to: forward by the UK and territory leaders together through provide an update on compliance in each of the sectors that a joint ministerial Council. This strategy goes beyond CQC regulates on a quarterly basis; Government. It seeks to foster partnerships between the identify themes and trends in each sector’s performance; UK and the territories in the private sector, professional flag issues of non-compliance to providers and other bodies bodies and civil society. who have responsibility for the health and adult social care Our second goal is to help the territories to improve system; and governance, financial management and economic planning, demonstrate the volume and effectiveness of CQC’s inspection and enforcement action. where this is necessary. The report published today presents the results of We appreciate the remarkable diversity of the territories, inspections of more than 14,000 services, between June 2011 each with their own specific attributes, opportunities and 31 March 2012, across all the sectors that CQC and needs. In these times of global economic difficulty currently regulates: healthcare, adult social care and we all face common challenges: building more diverse dental care. This and future reports will provide a and resilient economies, cutting public sector deficits, snapshot of the compliance of providers against the regulating business effectively, ensuring the sustainability essential safety and quality requirements. of natural resources and protecting the environment. There are certain standards which we must all uphold, This report also includes a special feature on maternity in particular in maintaining the rule of law and integrity services and focuses on midwife staffing numbers. The in public life, building strong and successful communities Department of Health is moving toward a workforce and respecting human rights. This Government are where the focus will be increasingly on supporting the determined to help the territories run themselves effectively, whole maternity team to make the best use of their not to run them themselves, the territories have made contributions by using innovation and new technology considerable strides in their economic development. We to drive up the quality of care and deliver value for are determined to support them and to ensure that money. those territories that still need assistance will remain a The Centre for Workforce Intelligence has been asked first call on Britain’s international development budget. by the Department of Health to undertake an in-depth We expect these territories to do all that is necessary to study of the nursing and maternity workforce. The final reduce over time their reliance on subsidies from the report will be published in summer 2012. British taxpayer; and we expect all territory Governments “Market Report Issue I: 2012” has been placed in the to manage their public finances sustainably. Library. Copies are available to hon. Members from the The third goal of our strategy is to improve the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper quality and range of support available to the territories. Office. The Government are willing to make investments that will promote growth and economic independence in Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority/Human the aided territories. For example, the Department for Tissue Authority (Transfer of Functions) International Development is spending up to £247 million on a project to construct an airport on St Helena. This The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health will be a significant step on the path to self-sufficiency (Anne Milton): The Department of Health is publishing and will help the island to reduce its dependence on UK a “Consultation on proposals to transfer functions from aid in the future. the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority We also want to help the territories build productive and the Human Tissue Authority” today. links with other countries and international organisations, In “Liberating the NHS: Report of the arm’s length particularly to make good use of support from the bodies review (2010)” the Department of Health set out European Union and the Commonwealth. We will support its proposals for reducing bureaucracy and increasing this using the FCO’s overseas networks and relationships. efficiencies. This included transferring all functions from This year, we have celebrated a number of important the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority landmarks relating to the territories. In January, we and the Human Tissue Authority with a view to abolishing marked the centenary of Scott’s heroic journey to the the two organisations by 2015. This consultation sets south pole. Earlier this month, we welcomed territory out options for taking this work forward. We welcome leaders to Britain to celebrate the diamond jubilee. Two views and will use these to inform our thinking. weeks ago, we commemorated the 30th anniversary of A copy of the “Consultation on proposals to transfer the end of the Falklands conflict in which British soldiers functions from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology gave their lives to protect the Falkland Islanders’ right Authority and the Human Tissue Authority” has been of self-determination. This White Paper is another placed in the Library. Copies are available to hon. major milestone—one that marks a new era of positive Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from engagement between Britain and the overseas territories. the Printed Paper Office.

HEALTH JUSTICE Care Quality Commission Market Report Data Protection The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns): The Care Quality Commission (CQC) has today The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice published its first quarterly report on the provision of (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): My noble Friend the Minster health and adult social care in England, “Market Report of State, Ministry of Justice, Lord McNally, has made Issue 1: 2012”. the following written ministerial statement: 27WS Written Ministerial Statements28 JUNE 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

Today, I will publish the Government’s summary of responses There were progress reports on four topics; legislative to their call for evidence on the European Commission’s new initiatives for posting of workers; minimum health and proposals for data protection. safety requirements regarding the exposure of workers On 25 January 2012, the European Commission published a to the risks arising from physical agents (electromagnetic draft data protection directive (covering the police and judicial fields); the principle of equal treatment of persons sector) and a draft data protection regulation (mainly impacting irrespective of religion or belief, disability, age or sexual on individuals, business, the public sector and charities). The Government’s call for evidence, which was launched on 7 February orientation; and the European globalisation adjustment and concluded on 6 March 2012 sought evidence on the potential fund (EGF) (2014-20). On EGF, there was support impact on the UK of both the proposed regulation and the from some member states to continue the fund in the proposed directive. next programming period while other disagreed. I intervened Some143 responses were received from across the public, private to state that the fund should be discontinued. and third sectors, consumer groups and members of the public. In In addition, Ministers adopted two sets of Council addition to inviting written responses to the call for evidence, conclusions, covering responding to the demographic officials from the Ministry of Justice took part in a series of bilateral discussions and roundtables to hear views from industry challenges through enhanced participation in labour and rights groups. market and society by all, and gender equality and the environment: enhanced decision making, qualifications Broadly, respondents to the call for evidence welcomed the opportunity for a revision of the current data protection framework. and competitiveness in the field of climate change mitigation Rights groups and members of the general public welcomed the policy in the EU. strengthening of individuals’ rights and greater transparency in Ministers reached a partial general approach on the the processing of personal data. However, businesses and some programme for social change and innovation (PSCI) public sector organisations expressed their concerns about the excluding the programme budget. I supported this, while additional burdens and unintended consequence stemming from the proposed regulation. The evidence received will help to inform tabling a minute statement stressing that, as the Danish the UK’s position for the ongoing negotiations of the EU data presidency has made clear, progress in negotiating individual protection instruments. sectoral regulations should not prejudice the outcome At the same time as publishing this summary of responses, the of the overall multiannual financial framework discussion. Government will publish their impacts checklist of the proposed Ministers also endorsed the main messages from the data protection instruments. Primarily, the checklists aim to Social Protection Committee’s report on pensions’adequacy. assess the costs and benefits the proposed instruments could Under any other business, the Commission provided generate. information on national Roma integration strategies Negotiations are expected to continue at EU level until 2014, and the ratification and implementation of the UN when the Government’s aim is to secure a data protection framework convention on the rights of people with disabilities. The that is proportionate, and that minimises the burdens on businesses and other organisations, while giving individuals real protection presidency provided information on conferences held in how their personal data are processed. during the Danish presidency. The Commission and Copies of the summary of responses to the call for evidence presidency both reported on the G20 meeting of Labour and the impacts checklists will be placed in the Libraries of both and Employment Ministers, and finally, the Cypriot Houses and on the Department’s website at: www.justice.gov.uk. delegation outlined the work programme of their forthcoming presidency.

Right to Control (Pilot Scheme) WORK AND PENSIONS

Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work Affairs Council and Pensions (Maria Miller): The current Right to Control pilot scheme is implemented by regulations which expire on 13 December 2012. The Government The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions believe that the best way to get more evidence about the (Chris Grayling): The Employment, Social Policy, Health delivery of Right to Control is to extend the current and Consumer Affairs Council met on 21 June 2012 in pilot scheme for a further 12 months beyond December Luxembourg. I represented the United Kingdom. 2012. Accordingly, the Government are proposing to put in place that extension. The main discussion was a policy debate on the Europe 2020 strategy: contribution to the European Later today the Department will launch a public Council (28 and 29 June 2012)—European semester. consultation in which it asks for views about its proposed The presidency stated that it was vitally important for extension of the pilot scheme. Europe to take ambitious reform measures and the In line with requirements under part 2 of the Welfare Commission stressed the greater need for economic Reform Act 2009 the Department will publish, for integration in Europe. I intervened to state that country comment, draft regulations to enable the extension of specific recommendations (CSRs) were a key tool and the pilot scheme. Pending the results of the consultation needed to be ambitious and challenging but that they it is our intention to lay the draft regulations before needed to be fully supported by evidence and be relevant Parliament for approval in the autumn. to individual member states. I further stressed that the The consultation document, which includes the draft process for agreeing CSRs needed improvement and in regulations, will be published later today on the Department particular, the Commission should show greater willingness for Work and Pensions website with details of the to listen and accept changes where duly justified and consultation process. I will also place a copy of the supported by evidence. consultation document in the House Library later today. 5P Petitions28 JUNE 2012 Petitions 6P

However, the Government have recognised the Petition exceptional demand for a biometric enrolment site in this area and has been working with Post Office Ltd to Thursday 28 June 2012 explore possible alternatives for biometric enrolment in Leicester. OBSERVATIONS The Government are pleased to advise that the UK Border Agency and Post Office Ltd have identified a favourable site in Leicester city centre. We intend to begin enrolment of biometrics at this site September HOME DEPARTMENT 2012. Biometric Centre, Leicester We do not expect to make similar arrangements in other locations unless there is extremely high demand. The Petition of residents of Leicester, The Government maintain that there are viable Declares that the Petitioners believe that there are alternatives for enrolment whilst we make arrangements inadequate facilities for foreign nationals wishing to to establish the site in Leicester. If travelling by train or register biometric data for the purposes of residence coach, Beeston, Derby or Kettering fall within 30 minutes permits in Leicester, with the nearest facilities located in travel, with an off-peak return ticket priced at around Beeston, Nottingham or Derby. £10. Depending on which part of the county an applicant The Petitioners therefore request that the House of lives, the Nottingham and the Birmingham sites may Commons urges the Government to consider establishing also be convenient. Any individual physically unable to a centre for the registration of biometric data in Leicester. travel can apply for the mobile enrolment facility and be And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Keith enrolled at home or other suitable location. Vaz, Official Report, 26 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 1208 .] There is no need to book an appointment at Post [P001023] Office Ltd sites, so an applicant can choose to attend at Observations from the Secretary of State for the Home a day and time most convenient to them within branch Department: opening hours, including Saturdays. The Government are aware that there is no biometric The Government are aware that as a designated asylum enrolment provision in the Leicester city area. support dispersal area there are many refugees living in Post Office Ltd was awarded the contract to provide Leicester. We want to reassure all applicants who do not this facility for foreign nationals needing to enrol and is pay for their application to remain in the UK, including doing so through a national network of 104 branches. asylum seekers, that Post Office Ltd will not charge to In accordance with security requirements, sites selected enrol their biometric features at a Post Office. for enrolment have been limited to Crown Post Offices, In the vast majority of cases, the UK Border Agency which are offices directly managed by Post Office Ltd will meet reasonable travel costs for applicants in non- As there are no Crown Post Offices in Leicester or charged categories. The Agency will also supply travel Leicestershire, no locations were identified for roll out tickets to supported asylum seekers living at least three of biometric enrolment in the city or immediate area. miles from the Post Office they are required to attend.

327W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 328W Written Answers to The Prime Minister: A reply has been sent.

Questions COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Thursday 28 June 2012 Families: Disadvantaged

Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Communities and Local Government how many Same-sex Civil Marriages troubled families co-ordinators there are. [114288]

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister for Women Robert Neill: On 11 June 2012 we announced that all and Equalities what assessment she has made of the 152 upper tier local authorities in England have agreed potential effect of European human rights legislation to run the Troubled Families programme in their area. on any UK legislation on same-sex civil marriages. In signing up to the programme, authorities have committed [114071] to appoint a Troubled Families Co-ordinator to run the programme locally and inform it nationally. So far Lynne Featherstone: If a couple love each other and 116 local authorities have confirmed that a Troubled want to commit to a life together, we believe that they Families Co-ordinator has been appointed in their area. should have the option of getting married. That is why Other authorities have a named lead officer who has we have consulted on enabling same-sex couples to have been driving work on the programme locally while they a civil marriage ceremony. proceed with recruitment of a co-ordinator. As would be expected, we continue to consider all Planning Permission relevant court judgments, including those from Europe. This is alongside our consideration of the responses we have received to the consultation—and I am grateful to John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for everyone that sent in their views. We will be publishing Communities and Local Government in which areas the Government’s response by the end of the year. the Planning Inspectorate plans to issue model policies for adoption in local plans. [113888] Children: Day Care Robert Neill: National planning policy is the responsibility Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Minister for Women of the Department for Communities and Local and Equalities what recent discussions she has had with Government. Paragraph 15 of the National Planning ministerial colleagues on the importance of childcare Policy Framework states that local plans should be for women. [114069] based upon and reflect the presumption in favour of Lynne Featherstone: I have regular discussions with sustainable development, with clear policies that will my ministerial colleagues on a range of issues, including guide how the presumption should be applied locally. It child care. creates an expectation that all plans subject to examination should reflect the presumption in favour of sustainable Last week, the Prime Minister launched a commission development. on child care to look at how to reduce the costs to working families and the burdens on child care providers. The Planning Inspectorate has published model wording to assist local authorities in their plan making to reflect This commission, which will report in the autumn, the presumption in favour of sustainable development will draw widely on expertise and evidence from within and so meet the expectation in the framework. The this country and abroad. Planning Inspectorate considers that the model wording, Human Trafficking Ministerial Group if incorporated into a draft local plan submitted for examination, is an appropriate way of meeting this Mr Bone: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities expectation alongside any other aspects of a plan that how many times she has attended the Inter-Ministerial may need to reflect the approach of the presumption: Committee on Human Trafficking in the last 18 months. http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/planning/planningsystem/ [114209] localplans#Presume Lynne Featherstone: The Secretary of State for the The Planning Inspectorate does not have any plans to Home Department and Minister for Womenand Equalities, issue other model wording. my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), has not attended. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT PRIME MINISTER Arts Members: Correspondence Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr Baron: To ask the Prime Minister when he plans Olympics, Media and Sport how much funding for (a) to respond to the (a) letter of 30 March 2012 and (b) the arts, (b) heritage, (c) active leisure and (d) museums email of 16 May 2012 from the hon. Member for Basildon his Department allocated to (i) England, (ii) the west and Billericay regarding a constituent Mr M. Allison. midlands and (iii) each local authority area in the west [114136] midlands from 2010 to 2012. [113724] 329W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 330W

Mr Vaizey: The Department provides grant in aid Arts funding funding to public bodies that help deliver our strategic 2010-11 2011-12 aims and objectives for the arts, heritage, community Stoke-on-Trent 363,210 206,278 sport and museums. The grant in aid allocated to these bodies can be found in the Department’s annual reports, Stratford-on-Avon 15,362,633 14,977,995 and in funding allocation letters, which can be found at Tamworth 0 44,500 the following links: Telford and Wrekin 14,500 158,196 Walsall 945,543 931,694 http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/Annual_ Report_and_Accounts_2010_11.pdf Warwick 405,310 649,423 Wolverhampton 389,912 536,281 and Worcester 357353 403,636 http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/9020.aspx Wychavon 121,372 108,954 Arts Council England has provided details of arts Wyre Forest 5,218 0 and museum funding distributed in England and the west midlands. Museum funding data are not recorded Renaissance Museum Programme funding by local authority area. £ million 2010-11 2011-12 Arts funding 2010-11 2011-12 (i) England 43 37.6 (ii) West midlands 4.6 4.1 (i) England 401,849,829 392,691,133 We do not hold data for funding allocated to ‘active 2010-11 2011-12 leisure’; however, Sport England allocates Exchequer (ii) West midlands 45,157,638 44,359,071 funding to community sport. Full details of the funds awarded by region and local authority, from 2010 to (iii) West midlands 2012, can be found at the following link: local authority areas http://www.sportengland.org/funding/ Birmingham 22,055,423 21,053,661 local_spending_data.aspx Bromsgrove 18,593 12,635 English Heritage has provided a breakdown of grant Coventry 1,899,926 1,970,029 offers they have made in England and the west midlands; Dudley 67,462 122,952 these figures are not broken down by local authority East Staffordshire 14,000 0 area. Herefordshire, 593,161 459,140 County of £ million Lichfield 72,635 59,251 West midlands1 England Malvern Hills 81,970 107,550 2010-11 3.706 24.373 Newcastle-under- 1,082,029 1,008,500 2011-12 2.835 23.729 Lyme 1Amounts exclude offers made under the English Heritage National North Warwickshire 0 0 Heritage Protection Commissions Programme. Nuneaton and 7,665 0 Bedworth E-mail Redditch 0 8,819 Rugby 1,000 95,885 Sand well 457,278 439,577 Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many emails Shropshire 716,343 776,573 he received to his official government email address in Solihull 11,302 150,157 each month since May 2010. [113746] South Staffordshire 0 0 Stafford 113,800 77,385 John Penrose: The number of e-mails received by the Staffordshire 00Secretary of State’s three official Government addresses Moorlands is set out in the following table:

Secretary of State’s Office Jeremy Hunt—Office Jeremy Hunt—Diary Total

May 2010 859 29 150 1,038 June 2010 1,723 71 974 2,768 July 2010 1,754 20 592 2,366 August 2010 784 21 295 1,100 September 2010 1,045 19 637 1,701 October 2010 1,096 16 559 1,671 November 2010 1,135 21 878 2,034 December 2010 735 12 463 1,210 January 2011 931 42 1335 2,308 February 2011 888 49 1056 1,993 March 2011 1,296 85 975 2,356 April 2011 556 34 559 1,149 331W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 332W

Secretary of State’s Office Jeremy Hunt—Office Jeremy Hunt—Diary Total

May 2011 775 17 594 1,386 June 2011 1,006 21 546 1,573 July 2011 1,907 32 480 2,419 August 2011 747 27 387 1,161 September 2011 930 46 3,262 4,238 October 2011 1,016 60 1,366 2,442 November 2011 1,221 58 1,174 2,453 December 2011 849 57 303 1,209 January 2012 806 380 239 1,425 February 2012 936 410 163 1,509 March 2012 1,066 517 203 1,786 April 2012 806 446 233 1,485 May 2012 864 574 149 1,587 Total 25,731 3,064 17,572 46,367

Flags: British Overseas Territories a Blackberry 8250, which is both data and phone enabled. The network provider for this mobile phone device is Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, O2,. which is the network provider for all departmental Olympics, Media and Sport for what reasons the flags mobile devices. of British Overseas Territories were not displayed in Parliament Square and Horse Guards Parade during Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee celebrations and the Trooping Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many (a) of the Colour. [113771] telephone calls and (b) text messages he received to mobile telephone devices officially issued to him in John Penrose: We had hoped to be able to fly the flags each month since May 2010. [113742] of the Overseas Territories (OT) at this summer’s ceremonial events, but the first manufacturers of the bespoke ceremonial John Penrose: The Secretary of State for Culture, flagpoles and flags delivered products which were unusable, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the or which required specialist repair before they could be Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has been used. The repairs and replacements are currently being officially issued with a BlackBerry that is both data and undertaken and we expect to be able to fly the OT flags phone enabled, but, in line with most phone bills, the at future ceremonial events. Department does not hold a record of calls and text messages received. Mental Health Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he is taking to the 4G spectrum auction to be held; and if he will make promote good mental health and well-being in his a statement. [114257] Department. [114616] Mr Vaizey: This is a matter for Ofcom, the independent John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media regulator. Ofcom remain on schedule for the UK auction and Sport has guidance for staff on managing and process to start by the end of 2012. This is compatible supporting mental health in the workplace, as well as an with the spectrum becoming available to allow successful Employee Assistance Programme provider offering bidders to start rolling out 4G services in these bands in confidential advice on a range of health and other 2013. issues. In addition, the Department held a ‘Well-being at Work’ week earlier this year, which included a Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for presentation from the Civil Service Benevolent Fund Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when Ofcom (now the Charity for the Civil Service) focusing on expects to determine the application it has received for raising awareness of mental health issues in the workplace. re-use of existing 2G spectrum for 4G services; and what timetable the European Commission has set for Mobile Phones such decisions. [114328]

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: This is a matter for Ofcom, the independent Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the (a) regulator. Ofcom’s consultation closed on 8 May 2012 make, (b) model and (c) network provider was of each and the responses raised a number of detailed issues mobile telephone device he has been officially issued that Ofcom is considering. Ofcom is working to reach a with in chronological order since May 2010. [113735] decision on these matters as soon as it reasonably can. The EU Radio Spectrum Policy Programme decision John Penrose: Since May 2010, the Secretary of State requires member states to carry out the authorisation for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. process (for, among others, liberalisation of the 1,800 Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), MHz spectrum) by 31 December 2012 without prejudice has been officially issued with one mobile phone device, to the existing deployment of services, and under conditions 333W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 334W that allow consumers easy access to wireless broadband TREASURY services. However, this does not mean that the authorisation process must result in the 1,800 MHz spectrum being EU Customs Information System made available for 4G use by the end of 2012. Press Officers Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has (a) made of and (b) published Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for on the effectiveness of the EU Customs Information Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much has System. [114154] been claimed in reimbursable expenses by press officers in (a) his Department, (b) its agencies and (c) its Mr Gauke: The UK has not carried out or published its own assessment of the effectiveness of the Customs arms length bodies since May 2010. [114000] Information System. John Penrose: Reimbursed expenses paid to press officers by the Department for Culture, Media and Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sport between May 2010 and the end of May 2012 were how many (a) people and (b) UK nationals have had £617.70. These payments were made in connection with their data added to the EU Customs Information travel and subsistence costs, but we are unable to analyse System by the UK authorities in each of the last five in more detail without incurring disproportionate costs. years; and on how many occasions the UK has been found liable for damage caused to a person through the The Department’s agency (The Royal Parks Agency) use of the Customs Information System pursuant to has paid £117.42 in reimbursable expenses to its press Article 8(2) of EU Council Decision 2009/917/JHA in officers since May 2010. the last year for which figures are available. [114329] The Department does not hold this information for its arm’s length bodies. Accordingly, I have asked their Mr Gauke: HMRC has not entered any data on (a) chief executives to write directly to the hon. Member people or (b) UK nationals to the Customs Information with this information. System database as operated under EU Council Decision A copy of the letters will be placed in the Libraries of 2009/917/JHA over the last five years. There have been both Houses. no occasions when the UK has been liable for damage caused to a person through the use of the Customs Rebekah Brooks Information System.

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Finance Act 2008 Olympics, Media and Sport from how many different telephone numbers he has received text messages from Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Rebekah Brooks since May 2010. [R] [113733] (1) how much revenue HM Revenue and Customs estimates will be raised in 2012-13 due to the provision Mr Jeremy Hunt: All available relevant text messages of section 58 of the Finance Act 2008; [113895] on my phone were submitted as part of my evidence to the Leveson inquiry. There were no text messages from (2) what effect he estimates the bankruptcy of Rebekah Brooks within this evidence. individuals required to pay tax retrospectively under section 58 of the Finance Act 2008 will have on HM Regulation Revenue and Customs revenues. [113894]

Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gauke: UK residents are taxable on their worldwide Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what regulations income wherever it arises, including situations where it his Department introduced between 1 February and 31 arises by way of foreign partnerships. Section 58 of May 2012; and at what cost to the public purse. [114095] Finance Act 2008 was enacted to help put that beyond doubt and in so doing, made clear that a wholly artificial John Penrose: The following statutory instruments tax avoidance scheme involving a foreign partnership sponsored by the Department have been made between comprised of foreign trustees did not work. The total 1 February 2012 and 31 May 2012: tax at stake in respect of this scheme is estimated to be £230 million. The Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 (Directions to OFCOM) Order 2012 The Local Digital Television Programme Services Order 2012 Gift Aid The Gambling (Operating Licence and Single-Machine Permit Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 Steve Brine: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces (Amendment) (No.2) if he will undertake an assessment of the level of public Regulations 2012 awareness of Gift Aid declaration forms. [113898] The Safety of Sports Grounds (Designation) Order 2012 The Digital Economy Act 2010 (Appointed Day No.2) Order Miss Chloe Smith: The public awareness of Gift Aid, 2012 and of tax relief for charitable giving, have been the The Public Lending Right Scheme 1982 (Commencement of subject of research studies published by HMRC, including: Variations) Order 2012 ‘Charitable Giving by Wealthy People’, April 2007 The cost to the Department in making these statutory ‘Gift Aid donor research: Exploring options for reforming instruments essentially consists of staff time, but is not higher-rate relief’, December 2009 measured in the way the hon. Gentleman requests. ‘Key Barriers to the Adoptions of Gift Aid’, March 2008 335W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 336W

All of these studies are available online at: VAT www.hmrc.gov.uk/research Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Steve Brine: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to Table 6 of Annex B—Table of Impact if he will estimate the amount of funding that charities for Individual Measures of the HM Revenue and Customs are unable to reclaim in Gift Aid due to the consultation document, VAT: Addressing borderline requirements relating to individual declaration forms. anomalies, published in the 2012 Budget, what financial [113899] support and relief he is making available to those businesses and charities which own listed buildings which are not Miss Chloe Smith: No estimate is available because listed places of worship and who will be required to pay HMRC does not collect information on all of the VAT on alterations to their buildings that may be affected donations where charities cannot claim Gift Aid. each year. [114264] Mr Gauke: The vast majority of businesses with Infrastructure listed buildings already pay VAT on any approved alterations and so are unaffected by this measure. Mr MacNeil: To ask the Chancellor of the In relation to charities, I refer my hon. Friend to my Exchequer what progress his Department has made on response of 18 June 2012, Official Report, column 728W. securing public and private investments for the funding of the projects in the National Infrastructure Plan 2011, by project; and what the (a) funding source, (b) funding amount secured, (c) total funding amount ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS required and (d) potential Barnett consequential to be paid to Scotland is for each such project. [114285] Agricultural Wages Board

Danny Alexander: The National Infrastructure Plan Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State 2011 identified a substantial pipeline of planned investment for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she in UK infrastructure over the next decade and beyond. plans to publish the impact assessment in respect of the The infrastructure pipeline includes over 500 projects abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. [111963] and programmes worth over £250 billion. Almost two thirds of the expected investment to 2015 will be privately Mr Paice: An impact assessment in respect of abolition funded and the remainder will be either partially or of the Agricultural Wages Board will be published as fully publicly funded. The Barnett formula will be applied part of the necessary legislative process, the timing of in the usual way to public funding. which is still to be determined. At autumn statement 2011 the Government announced £6.3 billion of capital spending and since the 2010 Gangmasters Licensing Authority spending review the UK Government has provided more than £700 million of additional capital funding to Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State the Scottish Government for it to spend according to its for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) when she own priorities. plans that her consultation on the future of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority will begin; [113811] Members: Correspondence (2) pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 24 May 2012, Official Report, column 83WS, on Mr Baron: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Gangmasters Licensing Authority (Red Tape Challenge), when he plans to respond to the (a) letter of 28 April when she proposes that the changes to the Gangmasters 2012 and (b) email of 14 May 2012 from the hon. Licensing Authority will be implemented; and what (a) Member for Basildon and Billericay regarding a impact assessment she undertook and (b) discussions constituent Ms Burchell. [114135] she had with (i) the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, (ii) trades unions, (iii) farming Mr Gauke: I have replied to my hon. Friend. representatives and (iv) gangmaster representatives before the announcement. [113812]

Publications Mr Paice: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given in response to questions he asked on 21 June Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Chancellor of the 2012, Official Report, column 1120W. Exchequer what (a) publications and (b) consultation In respect of issues not covered in the earlier answer: documents have been issued by his Department since changes to the Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA) May 2010. [114170] will be implemented over the next 12 months subject to the outcome of public consultation; the GLA was Miss Chloe Smith: All Treasury publications are available considered under the Red Tape Challenge’s Employment on the Treasury website: Theme led by Ministers at the Department for Business, www.hm-treasury.gov.uk Innovation and Skills who were closely involved in deliberations; the Red Tape Challenge invited evidence and can be accessed from the website relevant section. on the future of the GLA from all interested parties, A full list of consultations is available online at: who will also be able to contribute to public consultation www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/consult_fullindex.htm on our detailed proposals. 337W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 338W

Livestock: Transport Early Guilty Plea Scheme

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent Justice with reference to the answer of 30 April 2012, discussions she has had with (a) the EU Commission Official Report, column 1156W, on the early guilty plea and (b) her EU ministerial counterparts on the rules scheme, what additional credits will be applied to surrounding the transport of livestock; [114235] sentences which are handed down after a defendant has pleaded guilty under the scheme; and what assessment (2) what recent discussions she had with (a) the he has made of the likely effect on the size of the prison European Commission and (b) her EU counterparts population. [113630] on the rules on the transport of livestock. [114570] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The early guilty plea scheme is Mr Paice: I have met informally with Commissioner an initiative of the Senior Presiding Judge aimed at Dalli to discuss, among other issues, the subject of the identifying earlier, and dealing more swiftly with, those Commission’s report on the impact of the welfare in cases where a defendant is likely to plead guilty. transport legislation. In addition, DEFRA officials have There is no additional credit given to defendants also played a full part in the Council working party pleading guilty under the scheme. Any sentence credit (involving all member states) responsible for drawing offered for an early plea is in line with current sentencing up the draft Council conclusions on the transport report, guidance. In view of this, no assessment of its effects on which were agreed at the Agriculture and Fisheries the size of the prison population was undertaken. Council meeting on 21 June. At this meeting, I introduced a note for the minutes Employment Tribunals Service of the meeting which made it clear that while the UK Government could agree with the EU Commission that Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice enforcement of the existing legislation should be the how many employment tribunals were on matters number one priority, we were, nevertheless, disappointed related to holiday pay in each year since 2007. [114106] that the Commission was not adopting the European Food Safety Authority’s recommendation to reduce the Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice publishes Her maximum journey time for horses going to slaughter to Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) work 12 hours. I also underlined our concern that more load statistics annually and quarterly. Those statistics should be done to protect infant livestock, such as include data on employment tribunal claims receipts (ie calves, during long journeys. the volume of actions brought by individual claimants) and a further break down of jurisdictional complaints receipts (ie the component causes of action, by jurisdictional type, brought under the claims submitted) each quarter JUSTICE and each financial year. Under legislation to implement the working time Debts Written Off directive, employment tribunals have jurisdiction to hear complaints from a worker that their employer has failed to allow them to take (or to pay them for) statutory Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice annual leave entitlement. Complaints under this jurisdiction how much bad debt was written off by his Department are often referred to as ’holiday pay’ claims. (a) (b) in 2010-11 and 2011-12; and if he will make a A significant proportion of the holiday pay (and statement. [110212] total) complaints received since 2007 has come from claims resubmitted approximately on a quarterly basis Mr Kenneth Clarke: The amount written off by the by a cohort of individual claimants as part of an Department for 2010-11 is contained within the published ongoing collective dispute in the airline industry. These annual report and accounts: employment tribunal complaints (managed together as http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/publications/corporate- ‘multiples’ at the London South Employment Tribunal reports/MoJ/moj-annual-report-accounts-2010-11.pdf Office) are currently stayed, pending the outcome of The Department’s 2011-12 year end position is not appellate proceedings before the Supreme Court. yet finalised. The annual report and accounts, due to be The following table shows the total number of complaints published in July 2012, will contain details of the amounts received under the holiday pay jurisdiction for each written off during 2011-12. complete financial year since 2006-07.

Claims and complaints received by employment tribunals in financial years since 2006-07 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Total claims receipts 132,600 189,300 151,000 236,100 218,100 186,300 Total jurisdictional complaints 238,500 297,000 266,500 392,800 382,400 321,800

Holiday pay complaints receipts* 14,900 53,300 21,800 92,300 111,700 94,700

Note: Figures for 2006-07 are management information. Source: HMCTS Annual Statistics, published by the Ministry of Justice (*Data on holiday pay complaints is drawn from the HMCTS employment tribunal database, which is the source of all associated official statistics). 339W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 340W

Prison Officers Reoffenders

Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice how many prison officers failed their fitness how many offenders released on licence following a life tests by age group in the last five years. [114277] sentence have committed (a) murder and (b) other offences in each of the last five years. [113382] Mr Blunt: The number of prison officers who failed Mr Blunt: Comprehensive data on offenders’ further the fitness test from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2012 is offending who have been released on licence following a shown in the following table: life sentence in each of the last five years is not held centrally in a readily accessible electronic format. To Age group Number of failures obtain these data would exceed cost limits. 20-30 16 The following table provides data on the number of 31-40 24 convictions for murder in the last five years where the 41-50 43 individual convicted of murder was on life licence. 51-60 11 Convictions for murder where individual convicted was on life sentence 61+ 2 Number Total 96 2007 0 2008 1 Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 3 Justice what the age profile is of prison officers across 2010 1 the prison estate. [114282] 2011 2

Mr Blunt: Information on the age profile of prison There is data from published proven reoffending officers and prison custody officers on the latest available statistics for England and Wales for life sentenced prisoners. date, split into 10-year bands is contained in the following These statistics are published on a quarterly basis and table. The information covers both public and private the latest bulletin, which was published on 26 April sector Prison Service establishments in England and 2012 on the Ministry of Justice website, is at the following Wales. address: Prison officers/prison custody officers in Prison Service of England http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/reoffending/proven-re- and Wales—As at 30 April 2012 offending Age group Headcount Percentage of total These data shows that of the 84 life sentenced prisoners released from prison in the 12 months ending June 2010 <20 6 0 three of them reoffended in a 12 month follow up 20-29 3,039 14 period. 30-39 5,049 23 The breakdown of the re-offences for these three 40-49 8,219 37 reoffenders were: 50-59 4,880 22 Burglary (household) >60 901 4 Drug offences Total 22,074 Summary motoring offences

Procurement Squatting

Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many contracts issued by his Department Justice (1) whether he plans to bring forward proposals were awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises in to extend the provisions relating to squatting in the 2011-12; what proportion that figure represents of all Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders contracts let; and what the monetary value was of such Act 2012 to all commercial premises; [113014] contracts. [113961] (2) if he will consider bringing forward proposals to create an offence of intentional trespass for vehicles in Mr Kenneth Clarke: The number of contracts awarded national parks; [113015] to small and medium sized enterprises in 2011-12 by the (3) when he plans that the provisions relating to Ministry of Justice (MOJ); what proportion that figure squatting in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment represents of all contracts let; and what the monetary of Offenders Act 2012 will be brought into force; value was of such contracts is as shown in the following [113016] table. (4) whether he has issued guidance to police forces on the enforcement of the provisions relating to squatting Proportion of in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders No of SME contracts Monetary value contracts represented as a of contracts Act 2012. [113017] awarded to proportion of all awarded to Period SMEs contracts let (%) SMEs (£) Mr Blunt: We are aiming to commence section 144 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders l April 2011 to 512 67 501,993,891.00 31 March 2012 Act 2012 (offence of squatting in a residential building) later this year. We are working with the Home Office 341W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 342W and the police to develop guidance on enforcing the Charles Hendry: Ofgem is responsible for collecting offence. We have no plans to extend the provision to data on switching. non-residential buildings or land at this stage, but will The average number of customers who switched from keep the situation under review. one supplier to another during each quarter of 2011 (latest data to be published) is shown in the following Young Offenders table:

Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 Electricity Gas Justice how many (a) male and (b) female offenders aged 10 to 18 years entered custody with a substance Quarter 1 331,000 266,000 misuse problem in each year since 2005. [113949] Quarter 2 370,000 271,000 Quarter 3 396,000 318,000 Mr Blunt: The information required to answer the Quarter 4 305,000 235,000 question is not readily available. The Youth Justice The Check, Switch and Insulate to Save campaign Board is currently collating the data it holds on substance was launched in October 2011, but between July and misuse and the custodial population and I will write to December 2011 five of the large energy suppliers suspended the hon. Member when it is available. A copy of that their doorstep sales activities which is likely to have had letter will be placed in the Library of the House. a significant negative impact on switching levels.

Green Deal Scheme ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Electricity: Meters Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Department has made of the potential cost to small and medium-sized Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for enterprises of the legal advice that will be necessary to Energy and Climate Change if he will estimate any comply with the Green Deal Arrangements Agreement. consequential cost of the early roll-out of smart meters [114281] resulting from (a) suppliers running additional systems to communicate with early meters, (b) the replacement Gregory Barker: We do not have estimates but have and upgrade of existing smart meters and (c) consumers sought to minimise the potential cost to small and not being able to switch suppliers because they have an medium-sized enterprises of any legal advice that may early smart meter. [114015] be necessary to comply with the Green Deal Arrangements Agreement (GDAA) by keeping the GDAA as concise Charles Hendry: DECC published two updated smart and clear as possible. The length of the current draft of meter impact assessments in April 2012. The impact the GDAA at 96 pages compares favourably with the assessments consider the potential for higher costs in length of other industry codes such as the Master early roll-out stages and reflect these through the addition Registration Agreement (234 pages), the Balancing and of cost allowances. The impact assessments also take Settlement Code (859 pages) or the Distribution Connection account of the potential benefits from earlier deployments, and Use of System Agreement (474 pages). such as providing consumers the early opportunity to receive smart meters and save energy, as well as pre-empting Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for unnecessary stranding of assets where existing meters Energy and Climate Change when he plans to publish need replacement. Overall, the impact assessments estimate his proposals for the Green Deal Launch cash-back that net present value is not likely to vary significantly scheme. [114478] with different volumes of early installations. Gregory Barker: We expect to provide further details Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for on the Green Deal cash-back scheme in September. Energy and Climate Change what assessment his Department has made of the potential effects of installation Procurement failures on the overall cost of the smart meter roll-out. [114022] Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many contracts Charles Hendry: DECC published two updated smart issued by his Department were awarded to small and meter impact assessments (IAs) in April 2012. The IAs medium-sized enterprises in 2011-12; what proportion estimate that, on average, the cost of a dual fuel installation that figure represents of all contracts let; and what the will be £69 per premise. This estimate accounts for those monetary value was of such contracts. [113965] instances where a number of visits will be required before a successful installation is achieved. Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) does not hold complete Energy: Prices information on the number of contracts awarded to small and medium sized entities in 2011-12. The amount Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for of expenditure incurred with small and medium sized Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has entities in 2011-12 and the total level of procurement made of the number of consumers switching energy spend by the Department and its non-departmental providers following the launch of his Department’s public bodies will be published before the summer Check, Switch, Insulate and Save campaign. [114280] recess in DECC’s departmental accounts. This information 343W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 344W is available on a quarterly basis in DECC’s Quarterly Community Safety Accreditation Schemes Data Summaries which can be found at the following link: Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home http://www.decc.gov.uk/EN/searchresults.aspx?q=qds Department (1) what plans she has to introduce greater A number of actions are in train to improve the transparency and accountability to the Community identification of contracts and expenditure with small Safety Accreditation Scheme; [113906] and medium sized entities, including the use of a spend (2) how her Department is monitoring the use of (a) analysis tool developed by the Government Procurement fixed penalty notices and (b) penalty notices for Service (Bravo Solutions). This tool links departmental disorder by accredited organisations under the spend to suppliers with Dunn and Bradstreet data to Community Safety Accreditation Scheme; and whether identify small and medium-sized enterprises. police forces should be monitoring this data. [113905] Publications Nick Herbert: The Home Office is working with Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for forces to increase transparency at a local level by ensuring Energy and Climate Change how many publications his information about use of the scheme is available and Department has issued since May 2010; and what the accessible. The introduction of Police and Crime title was of each (a) publication and (b) consultation Commissioners in November will provide another level document issued by his Department since May 2010. of local accountability and ownership, ensuring that [114178] these localised partnerships continue to reflect and respond Gregory Barker: Since May 2010, the Department of to local concerns and community safety issues. Energy and Climate Change has issued 765 publications. It is for chief officers in each force to agree management A list of publication and related consultation titles will and monitoring arrangements of the use of fixed penalty be placed in the Libraries of the House. notices and penalty notices for disorder issued under the Community Safety Accreditation Scheme. Guidance is provided by the Association of Chief HOME DEPARTMENT Police Officers. Antisocial Behaviour Databases: Telecommunications Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to bring forward Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the legislative proposals following the publication of her Home Department when her Department’s Communications Department’s White Paper entitled, Putting Victims Capabilities Development Programme was established; First: More Effective Responses to Anti-Social Behaviour. and how many of the staff involved in that programme [113902] previously worked on the (a) Interception Modernisation Programme and (b) Mastering the Internet Programme. James Brokenshire [holding answer 26 June 2012]: [112853] We will set out plans to bring forward legislation on more effective powers to tackle antisocial behaviour, including plans for pre-legislative scrutiny, in due course. James Brokenshire [holding answer 19 June 2012]: The Communications Capabilities Development Asylum: EU Countries Programme was established in April 2011. 60% of the current programme staff also worked on the Interception Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for the Modernisation Programme. Home Department how many asylum seekers were transferred Mastering The Internet is part of GCHQ’s corporate to another EU member state under the Dublin Regulation technical investment programme and is designed to in each year since that regulation came into force; and if help GCHQ to keep pace with developments in internet- she will make a statement. [114221] base communications technology in support of its Damian Green: The information requested is shown intelligence and security mission. in the following table: GCHQ does not comment on numbers of staff involved in its operations. Transferred from UK1 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home 2003 1,377 Department under what circumstances the authorities 2004 1,904 of other countries would be able to request access to 2005 1,924 data stored under the proposed Communications 2006 1,663 Capabilities Development Programme; and if she will 2007 1,157 publish a list of the countries which would be entitled 2008 1,246 to request such access. [113903] 2009 1,005 2010 1,162 2011 1,013 James Brokenshire [holding answer 26 June 2012]: 1 This figure represents all transfers under the Dublin Regulation, as such it Any country is able to request assistance from the includes people who have not claimed asylum in the UK, however these Secretary of State for the Home Department in obtaining applicants would have claimed asylum in another member state. The figures are evidence located within the UK, including communications based on management information data that are not quality assured under National Statistics protocols. The figures do not constitute part of National data. Such requests are considered under the Crime Statistics and should be treated as provisional. (International Co-operation) Act 2003. 345W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 346W

Public authorities in the United Kingdom can also Damian Green: The role of Frontex is to support the receive direct requests for assistance in obtaining border management authorities of states through the communications data from their counterparts in other coordination of operational activities. There is no distinction countries. On receipt of such requests the United Kingdom made between the numbers of migrants intercepted by public authority may consider seeking the acquisition officials of the host state as opposed to those intercepted and disclosure of the requested data under the provisions by guest officers from other states taking part in a of the chapter II part I of the Regulations of Investigatory Frontex-coordinated operation. Undocumented migrants 2000. The United Kingdom public authority must be may be questioned about the route they have taken, satisfied that the request complies with United Kingdom facilitators used and their ultimate destination. Information human rights legislation. gathered remains the property of the state hosting the Frontex operation and it is therefore not possible to Demonstrations estimate how many of those intercepted would have travelled to the UK. Louise Mensch: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidance her Department has issued to police forces on the enforcement of section 42 Ministry of Defence Police and Guarding Agency of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 in each of the last 12 months. [113678] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nick Herbert: The Home Office has issued no guidance Home Department how many Ministry of Defence Police to police officers on the enforcement of section 42 of have worked at (a) Heathrow, (b) Gatwick, (c) Manchester, the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 in the last (d) Liverpool, (e) Doncaster, (f) Glasgow, (g) Newcastle, 12 months. (h) Southend, (i) Bristol, (j) Stansted, (k) Southampton, (l) Leeds/Bradford, (m) Luton, (n) Edinburgh, (o) Louise Mensch: To ask the Secretary of State for the East Midlands, (p) Birmingham and (q) Bournemouth Home Department how many arrests were made in airport since May 2010. [113320] each police authority area under section 42 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 in each of the last Damian Green [holding answer 25 June 2012]: To 12 months. [113679] ensure the integrity and security of the UK border, Her Majesty’s Government cannot provide details of the Nick Herbert: The information requested is not available number of staff deployed at specific ports or at specific centrally. The Home Office’s arrests database cannot times. separately identify arrests made under section 42 of the For the total number of Ministry of Defence Police Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001. deployed, I refer the right hon. Member to the answer given on 18 June 2012, Official Report, column 653W. Detention Centres: Pregnant Women Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many Ministry of Defence Home Department whether it is her policy that Police have been seconded to work for the UK Border pregnant women are always allowed to keep their Agency (a) in each (i) week and (ii) month and (b) in hand-held maternity records (maternity notes) when total since May 2010; [113321] they enter immigration detention. [114270] (2) how many Ministry of Defence Police have been Damian Green: Pregnant women who have been issued seconded to work for the UK Border Force (a) in each with hand held records or a medical book while in the (i) week and (ii) month and (b) in total since May community are permitted to retain these on entering 2010. [113322] immigration detention. While detained, such records are maintained by the immigration removal centre’s Damian Green [holding answer 25 June 2012]: To healthcare department to ensure continuity of care. ensure the integrity and security of the UK border, Her Majesty’s Government cannot provide details of the Essex Police Authority number of staff deployed at specific ports or at specific times. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the For the total number of Ministry of Defence Police Home Department what recent representations she has deployed, I refer the right hon. Member to the answer received from (a) members of the public and (b) hon. given on 18 June 2012, Official Report, column 653W. Members on Essex Police Authority; and if she will make a statement. [113806] Passports Nick Herbert: None, except those from the hon. Member himself. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for the Illegal Immigrants: Frontex Home Department what proportion of people have a UK passport. [114279] Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many illegal migrants Damian Green: The number of British citizens currently travelling to the UK have been intercepted by Frontex holding a valid passport issued in the United Kingdom in each year since it was established; and if she will is estimated at 48.5 million. This equates to 77% of the make a statement. [114093] population. 347W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 348W

Pay Nick Herbert: Since 2004 the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has been responsible Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for the for the annual publication of statistics relating to complaints Home Department what steps her Department has against the police service in England and Wales and taken to introduce regional pay since 20 March 2012; these reports are available on the IPCC website. Information and if she will make a statement. [111542] on complaints against Essex police authority is not held by the Home Office and is a matter for Essex police Damian Green: I refer my hon. Friend to the debate authority. Guidance and advice on how to complain on regional pay on 20 June 2012, Official Report, columns about Essex police authority is also a matter for Essex 937-86. police authority.

Police Police: Health

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of Home Department what legal advice she has received the physical capacity of a person aged 60 to carry out regarding the dismissal of police officers with a the job of a police officer. [113298] physical disability after failing to complete the annual fitness test, as proposed in Tom Winsor’s Independent Nick Herbert [holding answer 25 June 2012]: The Review of Police Officer and Staff Remuneration and Winsor Review concluded that an average person should Conditions. [113774] be able to pass the recommended fitness test until their sixties. The Government is now carefully considering Nick Herbert: Tom Winsor’s recommendation for the these recommendations. introduction of annual fitness tests for officers has been referred to the Police Advisory Board for England and Police and Crime Commissioners Wales for consideration. The Home Secretary will give careful consideration to the advice offered by the board on this matter and to the relevant duties under the Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Equality Act 2010 before taking any final decision. Home Department what budget she has set for advertising (a) elections to the posts of Police and Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for the Crime Commissioner and (b) details of the method of Home Department what advice she has received election for police and crime commissioners. [113251] regarding the potential effects of the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 on proposals to introduce an annual Nick Herbert: £3 million has been set aside for raising fitness test for police officers. [113775] awareness about the Police and Crime Commissioner elections in November. Nick Herbert: The recommendation on fitness testing The Home Office will not spend anything on the is included in the policy equality statement in Tom methods of election for PCCs. The Police Reform and Winsor’s Independent Review of Police Officer and Social Responsibility Act gives the Electoral Commission Staff Remuneration and Conditions—Final Report, a statutory duty to raise awareness of these elections, published on 15 March. In the report Tom Winsor including how to vote in them, as it currently does for states that, in his view, the test is justifiable because it is all UK elections. The Home Office is working closely job related and does not have a detrimental effect on with the Commission on this but does not fund this people on the grounds of age or sex. activity. This recommendation has been referred to the police negotiating machinery for consideration. Police: Complaints The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the May), will consider carefully the potential equality impact Home Department (1) how many complaints were of any recommendations around annual fitness tests for (a) (b) recorded against the police service in Essex, officers in line with her legal responsibilities under the (c) Southend and England and Wales in each of the Public Sector Equality Duty of the Equality Act 2010. last 10 years; what the rate of complaints per 1,000 of population was in each such year; and if she will make a statement; [113803] Police: Information and Communications Technology (2) what complaints against Essex police authority have been upheld in each year since 2010; what (a) Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the response was made and (b) steps were taken by Essex Home Department what the (a) capital and (b) police authority to implement such recommendations; resource cost of establishing the police ICT company and if she will make a statement; [113804] has been since 2010. [113250] (3) what written (a) advice and (b) guidance (i) her Department and (ii) Essex police authority provides to Nick Herbert: The costs associated with establishing members of the public wishing to make a complaint the Police ICT Company are being examined. The about Essex police authority; if she will place in the company will be delivered within existing, reducing, Library a copy of each such document; and if she will funding allocations and projected costs will be subject make a statement. [113805] to official scrutiny through a full business case. 349W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 350W

Police: Pay Nick Herbert: This information is not held centrally.

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the Prisoners: Repatriation Home Department when she expects the annual pay freeze for police officers to be lifted. [113076] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps her Department is Nick Herbert [holding answer 21 June 2012]: Police taking to work with the European Court of Human officers’ pay was increased on 1 September 2010, when Rights to develop the criteria by which verifiable the Government honoured the final increase of the guarantees from foreign countries that potential three-year pay deal agreed in 2008. The Government’s deportees will not be tortured are accepted. [113534] policy is to freeze the pay of public sector workers earning over £21,000 for two years. We expect this to James Brokenshire: The European Court of Human apply to police officers, subject to any recommendations Rights has made clear in its judgment in the case of from the Police Negotiating Board. Othman (Abu Qatada) v. UK that it is not for the Court to rule upon the propriety of seeking assurances nor for Police: Pensions them to assess the long-term consequences of doing so—their only task is to examine whether the assurances Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the are sufficient to remove any real risk of ill-treatment. In Home Department what recent progress she has made doing so, the Court set out in that judgment a list of on police pension reform; and if she will make a factors it will have regard to. We are therefore, continuing statement. [112989] to work with foreign partners, such as Jordan, to ensure that adequate assurances are provided. Nick Herbert [holding answer 21 June 2012]: The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right Publications hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), wrote to the Police Negotiating Board on 27 March Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012 to consult on a proposal for the long-term reform the Home Department what publications have been of police officer pensions. Both Sides were asked to issued by her Department since May 2010. [114169] consider the proposal and respond by 22 June 2012 and we are now considering those responses. Damian Green: The following lists the printed publications produced by the Home Office and its agencies Police: Training during the financial years 2010-11 and 2011-12, and April to May 2012. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Teenage abuse and rape prevention campaigns (leaflets, business Department how many police officers from England cards etc)—Amends and Wales have trained at the European Police College Annual Border Controls Report in each year since 2006; and what estimate she has Home Office printed publications April to May 2012 made of the cost to the public purse of such training in Section 182 Statutory Guidance each such year. [114105] Authority To Carry Scheme—document, annexes, web PDF’s etc. Code of Practice (NI) Stop and Search Powers Nick Herbert: The figures for police officers from England and Wales trained at the European Police IPCC—corruption in police College are as follows: Police and Criminal Evidence Acts—Codes C, G and H DBS—leaflets. Number

2006 72 2007 101 DEFENCE 2008 105 2009 100 Armed Forces 2010 83 2011 63 Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012 38 Defence what progress his Department has made in developing its policy on Future Force 2020; and if he We cannot provide figures in relation to estimated will make a statement. [113715] cost to the public as these data are not held centrally. Nick Harvey: Progress towards Future Force 2020 is Police: Vehicles being made according to the goals set out in the 2010 strategic defence and security review and the subsequent Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the announcement of 18 July 2011, Official Report, column Home Department what estimate she has made of the 643, by the then Secretary of State for Defence, the number of operational police vehicles which are fitted right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox). with satellite navigation systems provided by the As the Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. relevant police authority; what proportion this Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), represents of the total operational fleet; and if she will said in his statement of 14 May 2012, Official Report, make a statement. [113641] column 261, bringing the Defence budget into balance 351W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 352W is a major milestone on the path to Future Force 2020. 2. Naval Other Rank Entrants FY 2011-12 The House will be updated on further progress as Number appropriate. AFCO Coventry (RN) 13 AFCO Dundee (RN) 25 AFCO Edinburgh (RN) 27 Armed Forces: Recruitment AFCO Exeter (RN) 46 AFCO Glasgow (RN) 54 Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for AFCO Gloucester (RN) 51 Defence how many members of each branch of HM AFCO Hull (RN) 50 Armed Forces were recruited in each of the constituent AFCO Inverness (RN) 14 parts of the UK in the latest period for which figures AFCO Ipswich 27 [113439] are available. AFCO Leeds (RN) 75 AFCO Leicester (RN) 18 Mr Robathan: The tables provide the figures from FY AFCO Lincoln (RN) 36 2011-12 detailing the number of entrants from recruitment AFCO Liverpool (RN) 103 centres in each of the constituent parts of the UK. AFCO London (RN) 63 However, this does not provide a comprehensive picture AFCO Luton (RN) 36 of where these individuals originate from geographically, as they may not always apply to join the services through AFCO Manchester (RN) 78 their nearest career office or may choose other means AFCO Middlesbrough (RN) 46 by which to apply. AFCO Newcastle (RN) 61 AFCO Norwich (RN) 24 Figures given do not give a representative picture of AFCO Nottingham (RN) 28 actual recruitment performance for specific trades such AFCO Oxford (RN) 19 as infantry. AFCO Peterborough (RN) 23 In the tables the following abbreviations are used: AFCO Plymouth (RN) 79 AFCO—Armed Forces Careers Office AFCO Portsmouth (RN) 84 ACIO—Army Career Information Office AFCO Preston (RN) 55 CIO—Career Information Office AFCO Reading (RN) 26 AFCO Redruth (RN) 28 OCLC—Officer Career Liaison Office AFCO Sheffield (RN) 31 ACA—Army Careers Adviser AFCO Shrewsbury (RN) 33 1. Naval Officer Entrants FY 2011-12 AFCO Stoke (RN) 22 Number AFCO Swansea (RN) 40

Admiralty Interview Board 82 AFCO Wrexham (RN) 14 AFCO Cardiff (RN) 1 CIO Canterbury 18 AFCO Exeter (RN) 1 CIO Chelmsford 30 AFCO London (RN) 1 CIO Darlington 33 AFCO Portsmouth (RN) 1 CIO Dunfermline 15 CIO Taunton(RN and RM) 2 CIO Guildford 35 Naval Recruiting 11 CIO Taunton(RN and RM) 35 OCLC Birmingham 27 CIO Wolverhampton 11 OCLC London 71 RN and RM Careers Office Ilford 11 OCLC Manchester 37 RN and RM Careers Southampton 33 OCLC Northern Ireland 3 OCLC Peterborough 52 Royal Navy St Helens 26 OCLC Plymouth 43 3. Army Officer Entrants FY 2011-12 RN and RM Careers Southampton 4 AFCO and UOTC Number Sub Region Greater London and 1 South East Leeds UOTC 19 Sub Region Scotland 21 Manchester and Salford UOTC 1 Sub Region Wales and West Central 2 Northumbrian UOTC 11 Sheffield UOTC 6 2. Naval Other Rank Entrants FY 2011-12 ACA 1—Wessex 15 Number ACA 1—West Midlands 2 ACIO Derby (RN) 27 ACA 1—Wales (North) 13 AFCO Aberdeen (RN) 14 ACA 1—Wales (South) 9 AFCO Belfast (RN) 36 4. Army Other Rank Entrants FY 2011-12 AFCO Birmingham (RN) 52 AFCO and ACIO Number AFCO Bournemouth (RN) 60 AFCO Brighton (RN) 36 AFCO Belfast 282 AFCO Bristol (RN) 35 AFCO Birmingham 339 AFCO Cambridge (RN) 17 AFCO Bournemouth 164 AFCO Cardiff (RN) 40 AFCO Brighton 250 AFCO Carlisle (RN) 30 AFCO Bristol 108 AFCO Chatham (RN) 28 AFCO Cambridge 262 353W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 354W

4. Army Other Rank Entrants FY 2011-12 4. Army Other Rank Entrants FY 2011-12 AFCO and ACIO Number AFCO and ACIO Number

AFCO Cardiff 306 ACIO Croydon 94 AFCO Carlisle 148 ACIO Darlington 87 AFCO Chatham 191 ACIO Derby 100 AFCO Dundee 183 ACIO Doncaster 102 AFCO Edinburgh 221 ACIO Dover 54 AFCO Exeter 186 ACIO Dumbarton 34 AFCO Glasgow 542 ACIO Dumfries 42 AFCO Gloucester 77 ACIO Dunfermline 46 AFCO Hull 313 ACIO Durham 61 AFCO Inverness 116 ACIO Enniskillen 75 AFCO Leeds 508 ACIO Galashiels 29 AFCO Leicester 275 ACIO Grimsby 83 AFCO Lincoln 243 ACIO Halifax 58 AFCO Liverpool 493 ACIO Hamilton 112 ACIO Haverfordwest 34 AFCO London 549 ACIO Hereford 75 AFCO Manchester 602 ACIO Huddersfield 75 AFCO Middlesbrough 335 ACIO Ilford 92 AFCO Newcastle 291 ACIO Ipswich 73 AFCO Norwich 195 ACIO Irvine 102 AFCO Nottingham 457 ACIO Kirkcaldy 41 AFCO Peterborough 78 ACIO Lancaster 63 AFCO Plymouth 123 ACIO Luton 97 AFCO Portsmouth 272 ACIO Mansfield 113 AFCO Preston 450 ACIO Milton Keynes 70 AFCO Reading 193 ACIO Newport 90 AFCO Redruth 34 ACIO Newport (IOW) 3 AFCO Sheffield 298 ACIO Northampton 152 AFCO Shrewsbury 257 ACIO Oldham 79 AFCO Southend-on-Sea 176 ACIO Oxford 44 AFCO Stoke-on-Trent 447 ACIO Paisley 81 AFCO Swansea 183 ACIO Perth 25 AFCO Wrexham 240 ACIO Pontypridd 73 ACIO Aberdeen 39 ACIO Portadown 59 ACIO Abergavenny 28 ACIO Rhyl 72 ACIO Aldershot 80 ACIO Salisbury 71 ACIO Scarborough 65 ACIO Ashington 55 ACIO Southampton 65 ACIO Bangor 73 ACIO South Shields 51 ACIO Barnsley 79 ACIO Stirling 84 ACIO Barnstaple 31 ACIO Stockport 85 ACIO Barrow-in-Furness 39 ACIO Sunderland 68 ACIO Bath 32 ACIO Swindon 29 ACIO Bathgate 35 ACIO Taunton 49 ACIO Birkenhead 69 ACIO Torquay 36 ACIO Bishop Auckland 26 ACIO Tunbridge Wells 16 ACIO Blackburn 70 ACIO Victoria 79 ACIO Blackpool 134 ACIO Wakefield 97 ACIO Bolton 117 ACIO Warrington 93 ACIO Boston 39 ACIO Wembley 60 ACIO Bradford 123 ACIO Wigan 88 ACIO Bridgend 29 ACIO Wolverhampton 164 ACIO Bromley 80 ACIO Worcester 92 ACIO Burnley 85 ACIO Workington 35 ACIO Burton-on-Trent 108 ACIO York 97 ACIO Canterbury 32 ACIO Carmarthen 33 5. RAF Entrants FY 2011-12 ACIO Catterick 42 Recruiting Location Number ACIO Chelmsford 46 AFCO Hull (RAF) 37 ACIO Chester 70 AFCO Leeds (RAF) 55 ACIO Chesterfield 77 AFCO Liverpool (RAF) 78 ACIO Chichester 45 AFCO Manchester (RAF) 42 ACIO Coleraine 43 AFCO Middlesbrough (RAF) 42 ACIO Coventry 131 AFCO Newcastle (RAF) 37 355W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 356W

5. RAF Entrants FY 2011-12 WORK AND PENSIONS Recruiting Location Number Children: Maintenance AFCO Preston (RAF) 67 AFCO Sheffield (RAF) 41 Area N England (AFCO Leeds) 0 Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for SCLO RAF Linton on Ouse 1 Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of AFCO Aberdeen (RAF) 7 the effectiveness of the powers available to the Child AFCO Belfast (RAF) 10 Support Agency to investigate the validity of declared AFCO Carlisle (RAF) 14 income where income is contested. [112942] AFCO Dundee (RAF) 22 AFCO Edinburgh (RAF) 25 Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement AFCO Glasgow (RAF) 33 Commission is responsible for the child maintenance AFCO Inverness (RAF) 10 system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Area Scot and NI (Kentigern 0 to write to my hon. Friend with the information requested House) and I have seen the response. AFCO Cambridge (RAF) 45 Letter from Noel Shanahan: AFCO Leicester (RAF) 25 In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the AFCO Lincoln (RAF) 72 Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive AFCO Luton (RAF) 0 reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child AFCO Norwich (RAF) 50 Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance AFCO Nottingham (RAF) 53 and Enforcement Commission. AFCO Peterborough (RAF) 28 You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what Area E Mids and EA (AFCO 4 assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the powers available Nottingham) to the Child Support Agency to investigate the validity of declared SCLO RAF Wittering 0 income where income is contested. [112942] AFCO Brighton (RAF) 20 Child support legislation provides the Commission with wide AFCO Chatham (RAF) 23 powers to obtain information from both parents and third parties AFCO London (RAF) 40 for the purpose of making decisions relating to child maintenance AFCO Oxford (RAF) 33 including those decisions which relate to establishing the income AFCO Reading (RAF) 0 of a non-resident parent. Where income is paid as wages upon which details are routinely held by employers, by the tax authorities, AFCO Southend (RAF) 10 and others; or where income is paid as benefits upon which details Area SE (AFCO London) 0 are held by the relevant government departments paying the SCLO RAF Halton 3 benefits, we are confident of our ability to establish income AFCO Birmingham (RAF) 50 effectively in the vast majority of cases, and resolve any dispute AFCO Cardiff (RAF) 54 quickly. AFCO Coventry (RAF) 19 Where a non-resident parent can control the form in which AFCO Gloucester (RAF) 35 they receive their income, through their role in running a business AFCO Shrewsbury (RAF) 38 or acting as a company director, establishing income can be more AFCO Stoke (RAF) 22 complex and require greater use of investigative powers. There are AFCO Swansea (RAF) 27 also often more intractable disputes between parents about what constitutes a true income figure. We are confident in our ability to AFCO Wrexham (RAF) 24 deal with such cases effectively, but the greater effort required to Area Wales and W Mids (AFCO 0 collect the information in some of these cases means it can take Gloucester) longer to establish the true income figure and ensure the correct AFCO Bournemouth (RAF) 27 amount of maintenance is flowing to the parent with care of the AFCO Bristol (RAF) 35 child. AFCO Exeter (RAF) 32 The legislation relating to the Agency’s powers to require AFCO Plymouth (RAF) 20 information to be provided by certain groups is Section 14, 14A, AFCO Portsmouth (RAF) 46 Schedule 2 of the Child Support Act 1991 and the Child Support AFCO Redruth (RAF) 18 (Information) Regulations 2008. Area SW (AFCO Plymouth) 2 The number of prosecutions under section 14A(2) of the Child DRIT (RAF) 0 Support Act 1991 relating to the misrepresentation of evidence of OASC Cranwell 66 income (fraud) has increased steadily since 2008.

Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for Cyprus: Military Bases Work and Pensions what steps the Child Support Agency takes to verify declared incomes. [112944]

Mr Arbuthnot: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Defence what consideration has been given to any potential Commission is responsible for the child maintenance consequences for the defence of the sovereign base system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner areas in Cyprus of a disorderly departure by Greece to write to my hon. Friend with the information requested from the eurozone; and if he will make a statement. and I have seen the response. [109265] Letter from Noel Shanahan: In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive Nick Harvey [holding answer 24 May 2012]: The reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Government is undertaking contingency planning to Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance deal with all possible outcomes in the eurozone. and Enforcement Commission (“the Commission”). 357W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 358W

You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what Phase 1: in September we will publish a summary of responses steps the Child Support Agency takes to verify declared incomes. to “Fulfilling Potential”, a summary of decisions already made, [112944] actions already planned, and activities already under way. Alongside Child support legislation provides the Commission with wide this, we will outline our next steps based upon the issues and ideas powers to obtain information from both parents and third parties disabled people have told us about. This will include our strategic for the purpose of making decisions relating to child maintenance narrative, the priority areas for further action, specific next steps, including those decisions which relate to establishing the income and how we will continue to work with disabled people to deliver of a non-resident parent. positive outcomes. The legislation relating to the Agency’s powers to require Phase 2: in the autumn we will publish an analytical document information to be provided by certain groups is Section 14, 14A, drawing on statistics and research, to explore the nature of Schedule 2 of the Child Support Act 1991 and the Child Support disability in the UK today. (Information) Regulations 2008. The legislation provides that the Phase 3: following from these, and continuing to draw on joint Agency may require information to be provided from a person that working with disabled people, we will publish a further strategic has the information or could be reasonably expected to obtain it. document and action plan in the new year. For issues relating to establishing the income of a non-resident parent the Child Support Agency’s operational guidance indicates Disability: Children that the necessary information should first be sought from the non-resident parent, on whom there is an onus to provide such information and that they should be allowed sufficient time Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work before an employer is contacted. It is a criminal offence for a and Pensions what recent estimate has been made of non-resident parent to refuse to co-operate with, or to provide the number of disabled children in (a) the UK and (b) false information in response to, this request. Once it is clear that England. [113122] a non-resident parent may not be fully co-operating with the Child Support Agency, an employer will be contacted to allow information to be obtained relating to child maintenance decisions. Maria Miller: The estimated number of dependent Prosecution of the non-resident parent for failing to provide children with a core disability in information will also be considered. (a) The UK: 800,000 Should the level of income provided seem inherently improbable (b) England: 700,000 as a correct statement of income, or should it be challenged by the parent with care of the child, then additional evidence to verify it Figures are rounded to the nearest 100,000. may be sought. Child support legislation provides that the following Notes: groups - Employers, Companies or partnerships, Accountants, 1. The Family Resources Survey is a nationally representative and ‘Deposit Takers’ - e.g. banks and building societies - amongst sample of approximately 25,000 UK private households. Data for others, are included within those which the Child Support Agency 2010-11, the latest year available, were collected between April may require information from in relation to the making of decisions 2010 and March 2011. relating to child support (this includes requesting verification of a 2. The figures from the Family Resources Survey are based on a person’s income). sample of households which have been adjusted for non-response Crisis Loans: Scotland using multi-purpose grossing factors which align the Family Resources Survey to Government office region population by age and sex. Estimates are subject to sampling error and remaining Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for non-response error. Work and Pensions what funding he plans to provide to 3. The Family Resources Survey defines a disabled person as the Scottish Government for crisis loans payments in having a long-standing illness, disability or impairment which (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14 and (c) 2014-15. [114210] causes substantial difficulty with day-to-day activities. Everyone classified as disabled under this definition would also be classified Steve Webb: Scotland has been allocated £4.5 million as disabled under the general definition of disability in the in addition to recoveries for crisis loan payments for the Equality Act (EA) which has applied since 1 October 2010. year 2012-13. However, some individuals classified as disabled and having rights The discretionary Social Fund which includes crisis under the EA would not be captured by this definition. loans is being abolished from April 2013. The funding is 4. A dependent child is defined as an individual aged under 16. A being passed to the Governments of Scotland and person will also be defined as a child if they are 16 to 19 years old and they are: Wales and local authorities in England to provide a better targeted local provision. Not married nor in a civil partnership nor living with a partner; and Scotland’s share of the programme funding for the Living with parents; and new provision from April 2013 is approximately £25 million In full-time non-advanced education or in unwaged government per annum for 2013-14 and 2014-15. training. Additionally, universal credit will provide a better Source: service of payments on account, supporting many people Family Resources Survey 2010-11 in need of short and longer term credit facilities. Disability Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether families with disabled children Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work will be involved in evaluating the effects of the early and Pensions when his Department expects to publish roll-out of universal credit in the Greater Manchester the cross-Government Disability Strategy. [113027] and Cheshire areas. [113123]

Maria Miller: We are taking a phased approach to Maria Miller: New claims from families with disabled publishing the Disability Strategy. This ensures we can children will not be involved in the universal credit continue to work together with disabled people to develop pathfinder but if, when on universal credit, a change and deliver an effective and practical strategy which occurs which brings a disabled child into an assessment makes a real difference to the lives of disabled people. unit then these cases will remain part of the pathfinder. 359W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 360W

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: The guidance discussed was intended and Pensions what modelling his Department has to set out in more detail how providers could release undertaken in relation to the effect of the introduction data through the Employment Related Services Association of universal credit on families with disabled children; (ERSA), the trade association for the welfare to work and if he will publish this modelling. [113124] industry. However, following an internal review, it was agreed that current guidance was sufficient to allow Maria Miller: Section 3.1 of the Equality impact providers to publish job entry data in this way, and that assessment shows, the impact of universal credit on further formal guidance was not necessary. ERSA released households with disabled people. The figures include a second tranche of figures on 21 May which can be households with one or more disabled people, including seen in their press release: children. The Equality impact assessment for universal http://www.ersa.org.uk/hub/details/682 credit was published in November 2011 and is available on the Department’s website at: www.dwp.gov.uk Employment Schemes: West Midlands Employment Schemes Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people from (a) the Work and Pensions with reference to the answer to the West Midlands, (b) Coventry and (c) Coventry North hon. Member for Barrow and Furness of 23 January East constituency have (i) volunteered and (ii) been 2012, Official Report, column 1, that he would issue required to take part in the Work programme in the last guidance to Work Programme providers on publication 12 months. [114108] of data on their own performance shortly, and with reference to the answer of 19 March 2012, Official Chris Grayling: The number of Work programme Report, column 495W, on employment schemes, that he referrals in the West Midlands region, Coventry local aimed to issue such guidance by the end of April 2012, authority and Coventry North East parliamentary when he now plans to publish such guidance; and if he constituency by referral type, up to and including January will make a statement. [114258] 2012, is shown in the following table:

Coventry North East parliamentary Referral type West Midlands region Coventry local authority constituency

Total 64,130 4,240 1,880 Mandatory 62,940 4,160 1,850 Voluntary 1,190 80 30 Source: DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate (IGS)

Energy Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions has switched its gas and electricity supplies several Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Work times during the last 10 years. Details of these supplier and Pensions whether his Department has switched its changes are provided in the following table. This information (a) gas or (b) electricity supplier in any of the last 10 includes the former Department of Social Security and years. [113461] the former Employment Service sites until August 2006.

Half hourly electricity Non-half hourly electricity Gas

DWP (former DSS) October 2001 to September 2002 Electricity London Electricity Powergen The Gas Company Board (LEB) October 2002 to September 2003 LEB/Ecotricity Ecotricity/Corona The Gas Company October 2003 to September 2004 Npower Npower Corona October 2004 to September 2005 Npower Npower Corona October 2005 to September 2006 Npower Npower Corona

DWP (former Employment Service) October 2001 to September 2002 LEB British Gas Corona October 2002 to September 2003 LEB British Gas Corona October 2003 to September 2004 LEB British Gas Corona October 2004 to September 2005 Npower British Gas Corona October 2005 to July 2006 Npower British Gas Corona

DWP August 2006 to September 2006 Npower Npower Corona 361W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 362W

Half hourly electricity Non-half hourly electricity Gas

October 2006 to March 2007 Npower Npower Corona April 2007 to September 2007 Npower Npower Corona October 2007 to September 2008 Npower Npower Corona October 2008 to September 2009 Scottish and Southern Electricity SSE Total Gas and Power (TGP) (SSE) October 2009 to September 2010 SSE SSE TGP October 2010 to September 2011 SSE SSE TGP October 2011 to March 2012 SSE SSE TGP April 2012 to September 2012 EDF BGB Corona

Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Work information on staff such as working pattern or status. and Pensions which energy supplier supplies his Therefore this information would need to be cross-checked Department with (a) gas and (b) electricity. [113479] against staff records in order to provide the requested information. HR has confirmed that as the information Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions requested is not collated centrally it could be provided is currently supplied by British Gas Business for non-half only at disproportionate cost. hourly electricity and by EDF Energy Ltd for half All the 615 GPC holders are DWP staff who are paid hourly electricity. Gas is currently supplied by Corona via payroll. In 2009 there were a small number of GPC Energy. holders who were contractors. These would have been staff who were employed on the Office Services contract Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Work who had moved to the contractor under TUPE and Pensions how much his Department has spent on arrangements when work was outsourced. During 2009-10 its (a) gas and (b) electricity bills in each of the last 10 DWP revised its policy on GPC holders and all GPCs years. [113500] were removed from non-DWP staff. Therefore during 2010-11 and 2011-12 there have been no non-DWP Chris Grayling: The following table details the GPC holders. Department’s electricity and gas spend since 2002-03: Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Gas (£) Electricity (£) Work and Pensions on which dates his Department has 2011-12 6,811,466 21,456,168 published Government procurement card spending over £500 since May 2010. [113361] 2010-11 6,298,006 21,357,861 2009-10 5,848,002 21,144,501 Chris Grayling: In line with Cabinet Office guidance, 2008-09 7,974,273 19,575,721 the dates for the publication of GPC transactions over 2007-08 5,889,050 19,575,721 £500 for the Department for Work and Pensions are as 2006-07 6,967,819 20,164,107 follows: 2005-06 7,451,382 17,332,658 2004-05 6,613,954 17,342,660 Data Published by 2003-04 4,932,292 15,075,730 2002-03 2,792,914 7,186,477 April 2011 to June 2011 30 September 2011 July 2011 to August 2011 31 October 2011 Government Procurement Card September 2011 30 November 2011 October 2011 30 December 2011 November 2011 31 January 2012 Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work December 2011 29 February 2012 and Pensions how many procurement card holders in January 2012 30 March 2012 his Department were (a) paid off-payroll, (b) employed on a part-time basis and (c) employed as a non-permanent April 2009 to March 2011 30 March 2012 employee in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11 and (iii) 2011-12. February 2012 30 April 2012 March 2012 31 May 2012 [113343]

Chris Grayling: Government procurement cards (GPC) Housing Benefit are held by staff across DWP to make low value purchases. Currently there are 615 DWP staff who hold a GPC. Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work In line with Cabinet Office guidelines, DWP have and Pensions who would be subject to the under- taken action over recent years to reduce the number of occupancy penalty if single parents with equal custody GPC holders. There has been a number of changes on rights each rely on housing benefit. [114426] the number of staff holding a GPC due to staff joining/ leaving the Department and those whose roles have Steve Webb: Housing benefit only takes account of a changed. An initial check has identified 3,830 GPC child in a claim from the parent with the main responsibility holders over the last three years. for that child’s care. Where care is shared equally the Information on GPC holders is held on the SDOL main responsibility normally follows the person who (Secure Data On-Line) database provided by the GPC receives child benefit for that child. Any claimant who is supplier. This database does not hold any personal not deemed to have main responsibility for a child will 363W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 364W not have that child considered for under-occupancy Steve Webb: No estimate has been made. purposes. This is consistent with the treatment of those living in the private rented sector. Industrial Health and Safety: Legionnaires’ Disease Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether he proposes that the role of Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work carers will be recognised when an under-occupancy and Pensions what steps he is taking to improve enforcement of health and safety controls for legionnaires’ disease. penalty is applied to housing benefit claimants. [114427] [112746] Steve Webb: A bedroom will be allowed in the assessment Chris Grayling: Last year, HSE’s Legionella Committee of occupancy for a carer living in the household and for asked the Health and Safety Laboratory to review recent a carer who provides necessary overnight care to the legionella outbreaks and identify any recurring causes claimant or their partner as is already the case for or trends in order to inform future interventions. That private tenants. work is almost complete and the committee will consider As part of the under-occupation measure we have it at their next meeting on 28 June, when they will added £30 million to the discretionary housing payment determine what further action is required to help ensure fund, £25 million of which is aimed at supporting that companies meet their legal obligations to control disabled claimants living in adapted properties. and manage the risks in relation to legionella. Housing Benefit: East Lothian Many premises with the potential for legionella risks are regulated by local authorities and HSE will continue Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for to work closely with them in developing and delivering Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made future interventions. of the number of under 25 year-olds in receipt of housing benefit in East Lothian constituency. [114151] Jobseeker’s Allowance

Steve Webb: Information is not readily available for Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for housing benefit recipients aged under 25 at parliamentary Work and Pensions what proportion of jobseeker’s constituency level, and to provide it would incur allowance claimants returned to work within (a) 13, disproportionate cost. (b) 26 and (c) 52 weeks in each Jobcentre Plus district A one-off exercise was carried out on the January in the latest period for which figures are available. 2011 data to provide a parliamentary constituency [114256] breakdown. This exercise consisted of validating postcodes and partial postcodes, using them to allocate cases to Chris Grayling: The information requested is not the appropriate parliamentary constituency using the available. revised Office for National Statistics coding system, then resolving cases with missing or invalid postcodes. Pay The results were published on the Department’s website at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ hb_ctb_parlc_jan11.xls Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the (a) highest, (b) median, Housing Benefit: Offenders (c) median full-time equivalent and (d) lowest full-time equivalent salary paid by (i) his Department Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (ii) its public bodies was in (A) 2010-11, (B) and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number 2011-12 and (C) 2012-13. [112483] of (a) people managed under level 1 multi-agency public protection arrangements (MAPPA) housing Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions allowance, (b) people formerly managed under level 2 has 14 public bodies, four of which are advisory bodies or level 3 MAPPA and (c) category 1 MAPPA offenders and do not employ staff, therefore they have not been who will receive the shared accommodation rate of included in this table showing the salary figures. All local housing allowance; and if he will make a statement. figures relate to base salary only unless otherwise stated [113135] in the notes of the table:

£ 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Department for Work and Highest 227,500.00 227,500.00 n/a Pensions (DWP)1 Median 18,245.00 18,710.00 n/a Median FTE 20,970.00 21,540.00 n/a Lowest FTE 14,000.00 14,400.00 n/a

Child Maintenance and Highest 210,000.000-215,000.000 140,000,00-145,000.00 n/a Enforcement Commission (CMEC)2 Median 16,725.00 17,188.00 n/a 365W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 366W

£ 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Median FTE 17,885.00 18.425.00 n/a Lowest FTE 13,480.00 14,400.00 n/a

Health and Safety Executive Highest 208,875.28 201,021.58 201,021.58 (HSE)3 Median 34,199.00 35,633.00 35,633.00 Median FTE 35,633.00 37,158.89 37,158.89 Lowest FTE 16,603.00 16,853.00 16,853.00

National Employment Savings Highest 230,000.00 230,000.00 n/a Trust (NEST) Median 60,000.00 54,000.00 n/a Median FTE 60,000.00 54,000.00 n/a Lowest FTE 20,150.00 20,150.00 n/a

The Pension Advisory Service Highest 92,500.00 92,500.00 92,500.00 (TPAS) Median 38,000.00 37,500.00 37,500.00

Median FTE 38,000.00 37,500.00 37,500.00

Lowest FTE 21,250.00 21,500.00 21,500.00

Independent Living Fund Highest 104,000.00 91,500.00 91,500.00 (ILF)4 Median 19,246.00 20,378.00 20,596.00

Median FTE 20,346.00 20,596.00 20,596.00

Lowest FTE 15,990.00 14,500.00 14,500.00

Pension Protection Fund (PPF) Highest 200,000.00 200,000.00 200,000.00 Median 40,000.00 40,000.00 40,000.00

Median FTE 40,000.00 40,000.00 40,000.00

Lowest FTE 16,086.00 16,086.00 16,626.00

The Pension Regulator (TPR) Highest 235,000.00 211,500.00 211,500.00 Median 39,228.00 39,228.00 39,228.00

Median FTE 39,228:00 39,228.00 39,228.00

Lowest FTE 16,028.00 16,278.00 16,278.00

Pensions Ombudsman (PO) and Highest 124,236.00 124,236.00 124,236.00 Pension Protection Fund Ombudsman (PPFO)5 Median 35,000.00 35,000.00 35,000.00

Median FTE 35,000.00 35,000.00 35,000.00

Lowest FTE 17,030.00 17,000.00 17,000.00

Remploy Ltd6 Highest 150,000.00 150,000.00 n/a Median 14,436.15 15,015.56 n/a 367W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 368W

£ 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Median FTE 14,677.40 15042.83 n/a Lowest FTE 10,948.24 11,681.25 n/a n/a indicates that the 2012-13 salary figures are not yet available. 1 DWP In order to answer within cost constraints, DWP has not included allowances in its response. The figures are relevant as at a point in time—31 March 2011 and 31 March 2012. 2 CMEC The highest salary has been shown in a £5,000 band in line with the annual report and accounts and transparency disclosure. 3 HSE The base salary includes job based allowances for example London weighting and IMT Aberdeen allowance and detached duty allowance. 4 ILF The figures for 2010-11 and 2011-12 are based on salary information as at 31 March. The 2012-13 figures are based on salaries as at today. 5 PO and PPFO This is one combined return as these bodies work very closely together. 6 Remploy Ltd Regular payments in addition to salary have been included. For example, first aid, safety, London weighting, shift pay, leading hand, pensionable allowances, sales commission, weekly-paid shop-floor bonus, (all consolidated and pensionable), and long-term extra-duty allowances and opening/closing allowances.

Pensioners: British Nationals Abroad scheme and make a minimum contribution. The Department for Work and Pensions has developed Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work communications to provide support and information to and Pensions how many UK state pensioners living in individuals to help them understand what automatic countries where the pension is frozen claimed a temporary enrolment means for them. pension uprating to cover the period of their visit to (a) People are normally notified of their state pension the UK and (b) another non-frozen country in each entitlement three to four months before it is due. They year since 2003. [112696] can, however, get an estimate of their state pension from the Department for Work and Pensions in advance Steve Webb: There are insufficient data to provide an of that by requesting a state pension forecast or state estimate. pension statement. The on-line state pension profiler also allows individuals to quickly self-assess the amount Poverty: EU Internal Trade of basic state pension they may get, and the earliest date they may get it. Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Work A major source of information for people is the and Pensions what estimate his Department made of Pensions and Retirement Planning section on the following the effect that changes in the level of trade between the website: UK and other EU member states since (a) 1980, (b) 1990, (c) 2000 and (d) 2005 has had on (i) household www.Directgov.co.uk poverty, (ii) child poverty and (iii) pensioner poverty; to which Department for Work and Pensions’ campaigns and if he will make a statement. [114198] direct people.

Steve Webb: Statistics covering various groups in low Skilled Workers income are published in the annual publication Households Below Average Income (ISBN: 978-1-78153-046-7). Latest figures cover the period 2010-11 and are available here: Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai Work and Pensions what his Department’s budget was for all skills-related activities in each of the last five Statistics on children can be found in chapter 4 and years. [114213] statistics for pensioners can be found in chapter 6. No assessment of the impact of the level of trade Chris Grayling: Skills training for benefit claimants is between the UK and other EU member states on poverty predominantly funded by the Skills Funding Agency is available. (SFA), a partner organisation of the Department for Retirement Business, Innovation and Skills. There is no specific budget for skills-related activities in DWP. Currently, DWP Delivery (Jobcentre Plus) has the flexibility to Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work supplement SFA funding for skills training and associated and Pensions what plans his Department has to help costs (for example, travel and child care costs) using the working people prepare for retirement. [113716] Flexible Support Fund. Steve Webb: Millions of people are not saving enough to meet their aspirations for retirement. To address this, Social Fund the Government is introducing automatic enrolment into workplace pensions. Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Starting from 2012 all employers beginning with the Work and Pensions how much it will cost his largest will be required to enrol all workers eligible for Department to run the social fund in each of the next automatic enrolment into a qualifying workplace pension three years. [114087] 369W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 370W

Steve Webb: This information is still being assessed as Chris Grayling: My Department is currently considering part of the wider welfare reform changes that the the best way to notify claimants of their universal credit Department is working through. payments. Current thinking is that the award notice that a claimant receives following their claim will inform Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for them of which day of the month they will receive Work and Pensions what his policy is on the scope local subsequent universal credit payments. Details of payments councils will be given to decide how the social fund is made to them will be available to view through their spent. [114089] online account. Work Capability Assessment Steve Webb: It will be for local authorities to design and deliver their services in line with our policy of freeing local councils to deliver for the public not central Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Government, giving them capacity to do what’s right and Pensions what assessment he has made of the audio for their area. Their local knowledge, broad responsibilities recording of work capability assessments. [114028] and experience of benefits administration put them in Chris Grayling: I refer the hon. Member to the reply an ideal position to design and deliver the new support given to the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen in a way that best fits local circumstances and needs and Timms) on 19 June 2012, Official Report, column 930W. aligns with existing welfare services in a cost-effective manner. However, the funding will be accompanied by a settlement letter which will make clear that it is to be EDUCATION used to concentrate resources on those facing greatest Children’s Centres: Birmingham difficulty in managing their income, and to enable a more flexible response to unavoidable need. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much funding he has allocated to Sure Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Start children’s centres in (a) Birmingham, Ladywood Work and Pensions when his Department plans to constituency and (b) Birmingham City Council area publish data on (a) the spending on crisis loans in for (i) 2012-13 and (ii) 2013-14; and whether this funding 2005-06 and (b) community care grants in 2010-11. is ring-fenced. [108732] [114090] Sarah Teather: Until March 2011, funding for Sure Steve Webb: The crisis loan spend data was published Start Children’s Centres was included in the Sure Start on 6 November 2006 in the 2005-06 Social Fund Accounts, Early Years and Childcare Grant (SSEYCG). From and the community care grant spend data was published April 2011, the Early Intervention Grant replaced a on 11 July 2011 in the 2010-11 Social Fund Accounts. number of previous funding streams including the The published data from these reports is as follows: SSEYCG. The Early Intervention Grant is unringfenced and £ million unhypothecated to allow local authorities to make funding Community care grants decisions according to local needs. Since funding decisions Crisis loans 2005-06 2010-11 are devolved to local authorities, it is not possible for us Gross 84.4 141.2 to provide a breakdown of funding by constituency. expenditure Birmingham City Council’s Early Intervention Grant Net expenditure 14.4 141.2 allocation was £64,771,476 in 2012-13. Funding levels Source: for 2013-14 have not yet been announced. Receipts and Payments Accounts Under the proposed Local Government Finance Bill 2012, the Early Intervention Grant—along with a number Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for of other central Government grants—will become part Work and Pensions how much it cost his Department of the new local government funding scheme in 2013-14. to set up the social fund. [114119] These changes are set out in a Department for Communities and Local Government paper published on 17 May Steve Webb: The introduction of the social fund was 2012 entitled “Business rates retention scheme: The one of many wide ranging changes made to social central and local shares of business rates—A Statement security provision and which was enacted within the of Intent”. This reform will change the way local Social Security Act 1986. government receives the grant. It does not alter the It is not possible therefore to specifically identify the existing distribution of the grant in 2013-14, nor the net cost to the Department for setting up social fund fact that it is unringfenced and unhypothecated. provision in 1987, that is regulated funeral and maternity The Department for Communities and Local payments, and in 1988 discretionary grants, loans and Government will be consulting on the technical detail regulated cold weather payments. of the new funding arrangements in the summer. Class Sizes Universal Credit Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Education if he will issue guidance to teachers on the and Pensions by what means recipients of universal importance of a good standard of turnout when teaching. credit will be informed of their receipts. [112954] [113294] 371W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 372W

Mr Gibb: [holding answer 25 June 2012]: It is not for the Free Schools programme and (b) Basic Need funding the Government to issue guidance to teachers on standards in (i) Barking and Dagenham, (ii) Milton Keynes, (iii) of dress. This is a matter for individual schools to Bracknell Forest, (iv) Bournemouth, (v) Hounslow, (vi) decide for themselves. City of Bristol, (vii) Brent, (viii) Slough, (ix) Merton, (x) Waltham Forest, (xi) Lewisham, (xii) Manchester, First Aid: Training (xiii) Wokingham, (xiv) Nottingham, (xv) Hammersmith and Fulham, (xvi) York, (xvii) Ealing, (xviii) Newham, Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for (xix) Wandsworth, (xx) Leeds, (xxi) Southampton, (xxii) Education (1) how many (a) teachers and (b) childminders Greenwich, (xxiii) Salford, (xxiv) Thurrock and (xxv) in (i) Swindon and (ii) England are first aid trained; Hillingdon local authority area; and how many such [113155] places he estimates will be created through each such (2) if he will make it his policy to make it scheme in each such area in each academic year from compulsory for teachers to be first aid trained. [113157] 2011-12 to 2015-16. [113037]

Mr Gibb: Information on the number of first aid Mr Gibb [holding answer 21 June 2012]: The Department trained teachers is not collected centrally. For child collects information from each local authority on school minders it is a condition of registration with Ofsted that capacity in maintained primary and secondary schools they have completed an appropriate paediatric first aid through an annual survey. The number of school places course. relate to the position as at 1 May. The Health and Safety at Work Act etc. Act 1974 The survey results show if any additional school places responsibilities on the employer for making sure places have been created since the previous academic that a school has a health and safety policy which year, but we do not have information from authorities should include arrangements for first aid. For community, on how the places have been created, either by basic voluntary controlled, community special, and maintained need funding or Free Schools. nursery schools, the employer is the local authority. For The following table shows the number of available foundation schools, foundation special schools, voluntary primary school places at May 2010 and at May 2011 in aided schools, academies and free schools, the employer each of the authorities listed above. The first 24 Free is the Governing Body (or academy trust). The proprietor Schools did not open until September 2011 so are not is the employer in independent schools. included in the number of primary places available in It is the employer’s responsibility to make sure that the academic year 2010/11. Over 9,000 new school the statutory requirements for provision of first aiders places will be available when the schools are at capacity. are met, that appropriate training is provided and that As to Free Schools opening this September, we are still correct procedures are followed. The employer must working with groups to open these schools. Statistics on ensure that there are enough trained staff to meet the these schools will be available in due course. statutory requirements and assessed needs, allowing for We can only estimate the level of demand for school staff on annual/sick leave or off-site. places, it cannot be determined by pupil forecasts alone as other local factors do have an influence, for example, Primary Education: Admissions changes to school capacity and spare school places. The survey data indicates that there will be a need for an Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for additional 260,000 primary places nationally by 2014/15. Education how many additional primary school places The Department is currently modelling potential additional were created in the academic year 2010-11 through (a) basic need beyond this date.

LA Number of primary places 20101 Number of primary places 20111 Increase/decrease in number of places1

Barking and Dagenham 18,107 19,615 1,508 Bournemouth 11,084 11,200 116 Bracknell Forest 9,360 9,434 74 Brent 22,062 23,013 951 Bristol, City of 30,056 29,724 -332 Ealing 25,538 27,015 1,477 Greenwich 20,631 20,883 252 Hammersmith and Fulham 9,157 9,647 490 Hounslow 18,197 18,473 276 Lewisham 21,093 21,015 -78 Manchester 39,178 40,821 1,643 Merton 14,846 15,212 366 Milton Keynes 23,270 24,069 799 Newham 29,093 29,184 91 Nottingham 23,112 23,121 9 Slough 11,909 12,459 550 Southampton 17,217 17,642 425 Waltham Forest 20,046 20,551 505 Wandsworth 16,922 17,271 349 373W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 374W

LA Number of primary places 20101 Number of primary places 20111 Increase/decrease in number of places1

Wokingham 13,272 13,335 63 York 13,533 13,559 26 1 Includes community, VA, VC, foundation primary schools and academies; excludes special schools. Source: School Capacity Collection.

Recruitment Broader experience Ideally, the candidate will have worked as a Speechwriter, or senior communications role, previously and have a broad Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for understanding of working with the unique challenges and pressures Education what selection criteria his Department used present in a fast-moving Whitehall communications department. in its recruitment of (a) Alexandra Gowlland, (b) Assessment Elena Narozanski and (c) James Frayne. [113373] Those candidates who are shortlisted for interview were required to undertake a written test (drafting a speech based on public Tim Loughton: The DFE is committed to ensuring information that was provided) prior to interview. Style and tone that individuals are appointed through fair and open were assessed in line with the competencies for the role. competition on the basis of merit. Candidates are required Additionally at interview candidates were required to deliver a to show that they have the appropriate level of professional short presentation to the interview panel, the topic of which was skills and breadth of experience for the post and are provided in their interview letter. measured against the Professional Skills for Government The selection criteria for James Frayne are as follows: (PSG). Professional skills and experience PSG is a common set of skill requirements across Experience of developing communications strategy at a senior Government which include behavioural indicators and level in a large, complex organisation with many different audience which set out the skills that staff in the civil service need groups and in a media sensitive environment. to do their job well, at all grades, no matter where they Understanding of the policy objectives and aims of the Department work. and its key policy directorates. The criteria for the post are advertised in the job Experience of issue management and stakeholder relationship specification in addition to details of the assessment management. being used (if applicable). Experience and proven track record of at least two, preferably The selection criteria that Alexandra Gowlland and more, specialist communications areas, such as media handling, Elena Narozanski were assessed against are as follows: marketing, internal communications, employee engagement, customer insight or digital communications. Professional skills and experience Leadership and core skills You will need to be able to demonstrate excellent written skills Command the respect and attention of senior people and work and be able to analyse evidence and get to the bottom of issues effectively and credibly with Government Ministers and their quickly. offices as well as a’ wide range of officials, advisers and stakeholders. You will need strong organisational skills and to be able to A team player, working with colleagues to deliver the manage several conflicting priorities at once. Tight deadlines are Communications Strategy and continuously improve the effectiveness part and parcel of this job. and efficiency of the Communications Group. You will also need to show very strong oral communication Demonstrable success in leading the development of skills and you are able to deal with Ministers and senior officials communications strategy.Able to think strategically and communicate effectively. strategies effectively and persuasively. You will need a good understanding of speeches and how they The ability to lead and motivate senior communication specialists fit into communications plans. that can deliver for their individual customers within the directorates You will be able to demonstrate how you apply your as well as addressing the broader needs of the external customers communications expertise to achieve results and improve practices. of the department. You will show you are aware of the pros and cons of using The ability to think, plan and operate both in response to different communications tools and understand how they fit immediate needs, and from a strategic perspective, identifying together to form coherent communications strategies. and working towards longer-term outcomes. You will be able to demonstrate how you use your professional A proven problem solver with a reputation for delivering and specialist expertise and knowledge to engage, influence and solutions to seemingly intractable problems. persuade others. Ability to formulate and drive forward change while relentlessly People and broader skills focusing on improving service delivery and reducing cost. Experience of successful operational, project and programme, You will need excellent people management skills. Youwill be a financial and people management. real team player and be able to build highly effective working relationships with Ministers, advisers and senior colleagues. Broader experience You will be able to demonstrate excellent line management Ideally the candidate will have worked as a professional skills, with the potential to manage one (or more) junior member(s) communicator previously at senior management level and have a of staff. broad understanding of working with the unique challenges and pressures present in a fast-moving Whitehall communications You will need to be a strategic and creative thinker, able to department. come up with fresh ideas and strategically to make the most of speaking opportunities. Assessment You will need to show you understand multi-disciplinary Each candidate met with an occupational psychologist, experienced communications teams and help to shape long-term policy and in assessing people for SCS posts, who provided the panel with a communication strategies and plans. report on each candidate. 375W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 376W

Each candidate was asked to prepare for their interview a five Sixth Form Education: GCE A Level minute presentation entitled ‘As Director of Communications for DFE, what do you think are likely to be the key opportunities, risks and challenges of the role and how would you deal with Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for them’. Education how many (a) school sixth forms and (b) The Head of the Government Communications profession sixth form colleges do not offer A Levels in (i) English was a panel member to test each candidate’s technical ability. language, (ii) English literature, (iii) French, (iv) German, (v) Spanish, (vi) geography, (vii) history, (viii) Schools: Defibrillators mathematics, (ix) further mathematics, (x) physics, (xi) chemistry, (xii) biology and (xiii) music. [112735] Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make it his policy to require Mr Gibb: We are not able to provide information on schools to have defibrillators on their premises and to A level subjects offered by schools and sixth form ensure that staff are trained to use them. [113005] colleges as it is not held by the Department. The information provided is based on A level examination entries in selected subjects by each institution type. The selected Mr Gibb [holding answer 21 June 2012]: There is subjects are taken from the data used to compile the key currently no requirement on schools to have a defibrillator stage 5 performance tables. on school premises. It remains a matter for individual school determination as to whether they choose to have Number of institutions published in KS5 performance tables with no GCE A level examination entries in selected subjects by type of a defibrillator and to arrange for suitable training of the institution. Year: 2010/11. Coverage: England school work force in its use. Number of institutions by type with no entries in subject Sixth Form Education Subject School sixth form Sixth form college

Biology 359 3 Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Chemistry 420 3 Education when he plans to publish success rates for English Language 1,324 10 each school sixth form in England; and if he will make English Language and 1,481 23 a statement. [112737] Literature English Literature 395 4 Mr Gibb: The Young People’s Learning Agency French 835 6 published headline (provider level) success rates for Geography 550 6 each school sixth form in England for 2009/10 following German 1,267 18 a data checking exercise. History 355 3 The Education Funding Agency is currently carrying Mathematics 305 3 out a data checking exercise with schools and academies Mathematics (Further) 967 6 to review the quality of success rate data for the 2010/11 Music 1,092 17 academic year. Once this has been completed the EFA Physics 493 3 will assess the validity of the data. This is due to take Spanish 1,314 12 place in autumn 2012. If the data is of sufficient quality, Notes: I will make appropriate plans to publish them. 1. School sixth forms have been identified as the following institution types. There are 2,029 schools with sixth forms: Academy Sixth Form Education: Finance Sponsored academy City technology college Community school Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for Community special school Education what recent steps he has taken to ensure fair Foundation school Foundation special school funding of 16 to 19 education provision between Voluntary aided school schools and sixth form colleges by 2015. [113007] Voluntary controlled school 2. Sixth form colleges have been identified as the following institution types. There are 96 sixth form colleges: Mr Gibb [holding answer 21 June 2012]: Historically Sixth form college there has been a funding disparity between schools and Ministry of Defence funded college (i.e. Welbeck Sixth Form sixth form colleges and other further education Defence College) establishments, with schools having been funded on a Source: higher basic funding rate. We committed in the White Key Stage 5 performance tables Paper, “The Importance of Teaching”, published in November 2010, to end the disparity in post-16 funding Students: Statistics so that, by 2015, schools and colleges will be funded at the same level as one another. In 2011/12 schools were moved onto the same base rate of funding as colleges. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education We introduced transitional protection for four years to when his Department expects to achieve its objective to give institutions sufficient time to adjust to the new base have consistent data available for the judgement of rate of funding and to the other funding changes announced performance of post-16 students by Ofsted and others in the December 2010 “16-19 Funding Statement”. so that young people, parents and the community are Transitional protection will be removed completely in given consistent information that is easy for them to 2015/16. understand and make use of. [113245] 377W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 378W

Mr Gibb [holding answer 25 June 2012]: We remain Buildings committed to introducing comparable measures of performance for all 16-19 providers of education. We Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health are considering what these measures should be in order how much his Department spent on works and to ensure that comparisons are made on the right basis refurbishment to offices allocated to Ministers in his by Ofsted, parents and students. Department’s buildings in each year since 1997-98. [113887]

Mr Simon Burns: The following was spent on works CABINET OFFICE and refurbishment to offices allocated to Ministers in the Department: Charities £ Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many new charities were established (a) 2011-12 12,746.25 2010-11 5,382.22 nationally and (b) in Swindon in the last year. [114592] 2009-10 20,008.41 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 2008-09 36,322.87 responsibility of the Charity Commission, have asked 2007-08 10,271.54 the Commission’s chief executive to reply. Detailed data are is not readily available for periods Letter from Sam Younger CBE, dated 27 June 2012: earlier than 2007. I have been asked to reply to your Written Parliamentary Question on how many new charities were established (a) nationally Community Nurses and (b) in Swindon in the last year [114592]. The Charity Commission holds the Register of Charities for England and Wales. Charities that have been established and Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for which have an annual income of £5,000 or above are required to Health pursuant to the answer of 16 May 2012, Official register with us. Report, column 144W, on cancer: drugs, which 6,401 charities were registered in England and Wales in the last professional organisations his Department is working 12 months. 11 charities were registered in Swindon in the last with to scope a renewed model of community nursing; 12 months. when they will publish details of the programme of a renewed model of community nursing; and whether he Regulation plans to hold a formal consultation on his proposals for such a model. [113985] Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what regulations his Department introduced Anne Milton: The Department is working with between 1 February and 31 May 2012; and at what cost community nurses and professional organisations as part of a development programme to scope a renewed to the public purse. [114097] model for community nursing, focusing on district nursing Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I services. The professional organisations involved include gave on 18 June 2012, Official Report, column 764W. the Queens Nursing Institute, Royal College of Nursing, Macmillan Nursing, Hospice UK, various practitioners, primary care trusts and service users. We will consult with the profession, key stakeholders HEALTH and service users as part of the development programme. The aim is for the initial scoping to be published early Ambulance Services 2013. Dental Services John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department has taken to ensure that ambulance trusts not meeting their response targets are Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for brought up to the national minimum standard. [113968] Health what proportion of dentists in England have exceeded their NHS quota for work in each of the last Mr Simon Burns: Ambulance trust performance for two years. [113843] response times is published monthly and monitored through regular discussions between the Department Mr Simon Burns: This information is not held centrally. and strategic health authorities and against the NHS NHS Dental contracts are commissioned and managed performance framework. by primary care trusts. For 2011-12, all ambulance trusts met the response time standards. The Category A8 performance measure Home Visits of 75%, for the proportion of Category A calls resulting in an emergency response arriving within eight minutes Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for was 76.1%. The Category Al9 performance measure of Health how many families have been visited by a (a) 95%, for the proportion of calls to receive an ambulance family nurse partnership and (b) family intervention vehicle capable of transporting the patient within 19 minutes project in (i) the last three years and (ii) the latest of the request for transport being made was 96.8%. period for which figures are available. [114287] 379W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 380W

Anne Milton: Since its inception in 2007 up until the (2) what recent representations he has received end of March 2012, 9,207 families have been enrolled regarding the future structure of South London on the Family Nurse Partnership programme in England. Healthcare NHS Trust following the planned departure Family nurses visit families from early in pregnancy of its chief executive. [113893] until their infant reaches two years of age and in 2011-12, 6,651 families were visited by a family nurse. In 2010-11 family nurses visited 5,608 families and in 2009-10, Mr Simon Burns: The latest financial position of 3,854 families. national health service trusts is provided in the NHS chief executive’s annual report “The Year 2011/12: Family intervention projects are a matter for the including the Quarter, Quarter 4 2011/12”, which was Department for Communities and Local Government. published on 21 June 2012. A copy has been placed in the Library and is available on the Department’s website Meals On Wheels at: Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.dh.gov.uk/health/files/2012/06/the-year-and-quarter-4- how many people receive meals delivered to their homes 210612-gw-17802-PDF-2.33MB.pdf and arranged through the local authority. [114212] The financial performance of South London Healthcare NHS Trust is being monitored and reviewed by NHS Paul Burstow: Data on the number of adults aged 18 London, the trust’s strategic health authority, and the and over in receipt of meals as a community-based Department. service, funded wholly or partly by councils with adult The Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. social services responsibilities (CASSRs), is collected Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire and published by the NHS Information Centre for (Mr Lansley), has received representations from local Health and Social Care each year as part of the annual hon. Members in relation to the future structure of Social Services Activity Report. The most recent report, South London Healthcare NHS Trust. On Monday 25 for the financial year 2010-11, was published on 28 March June, the Secretary of State wrote to South London 2012. It is available on the Information Centre website Healthcare NHS Trust and local NHS partners to at: inform them that he is considering using the Trust www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/social-care/ Special Administrator’s regime to support development adult-social-care-information of a long-term solution for the trust. No final decisions We are informed by the Information Centre that, have been taken. during 2010-11, 81,460 adults were in receipt of meals as a community-based service funded wholly or partly by CASSRs. Procurement Thalidomide

Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many contracts issued by his Department Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for were awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises in Health (1) how many people affected by thalidomide 2011-12; what proportion that figure represents of all were alive in (a) the UK, (b) East Sussex and (c) contracts let; and what the monetary value was of such Hastings and Rye constituency in the latest period for contracts. [113963] which figures are available; [114326] (2) what the average age was of people affected by Mr Simon Burns: The Department provides monthly thalidomide in the most recent period for which figures reports about procurement expenditure with small and. are available. [114327] medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) to the Cabinet Office. For 2011-12, the cumulative value of this expenditure, excluding Connecting for Health, with SMEs was £81.9 Paul Burstow: We understand that the Thalidomide million, which represents 18.3%, as a proportion of the Trust supports 435 people in the United Kingdom equivalent expenditure on goods and services with third whose health has been affected by Thalidomide. This parties of £446.2 million. breaks down per country as follows: The number and total value of contracts issued by UK beneficiaries by country the Department relating to this spend information is Country Number not available. To provide that information would incur a disproportionate cost. England 327 To provide the same information on spend, the number Northern Ireland 18 and total value of contracts with SMEs by Connecting Scotland 59 for Health would incur a disproportionate cost due to Wales 31 the nature of their procurement system. South London Healthcare NHS Trust We do not have data on the number of those affected by Thalidomide at county or constituency level. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health As Thalidomide was licensed for use in the UK in (1) what recent assessment he has made of the financial April 1958 and withdrawn from the UK market on performance of South London Healthcare NHS Trust; 2 December 1961, the age-range of anyone affected [113892] would be between 51 and 54. 381W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 382W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Banks

Adult Education Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will consider the Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendation by the British Chambers of Commerce Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his to create a state-backed business bank to improve access Department allocated to adult skills in the last year. to finance and to invest more in trade promotion. [114593] [114126]

Mr Hayes: ’Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth’ Mr Prisk: The Government already has strong support published in November 2010 set out that the overall in place to help small and medium-sized enterprises investment in adult Further Education (FE) and skills (SMEs) access debt and equity finance; which are available would be £3.9 billion in the 2011-12 financial year. through their existing banks and other finance providers. Within this overall investment, £3.7 billion would be This includes the Enterprise Finance Guarantee scheme invested in delivery of FE and skills provision for and the National Loan Guarantee scheme. post-19 learners, supporting capacity for over 3 million The scale of the financial crisis—with banks training places in the 2011/12 academic year. repairing balance sheets under the spectre of the Euro It also highlighted that Government funding would crisis—means that it is right to explore all options to be focussed where its impact is maximised, towards the ensure businesses continue to have access to finance. young, the low skilled and the unemployed. This is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the new Funding for Lending scheme, as Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for well as an extension of the National Loan Guarantee Business, Innovation and Skills how many people are scheme to make businesses with a turnover of up to enrolled in adult skills sessions (a) nationally and (b) £250 million eligible. in Swindon. [114594] The Government is also committed to trade promotion. The UK has an award winning trade promotion body in Mr Hayes: In England, 3,163,200 adult learners (aged UK Trade and Investment (UKTI). UKTI offers a 19 or over) participated in Further Education and Skills range of tailored services aimed at helping companies during the 2010/11 academic year (the most recent year new to exporting and those seeking to break into new for which full data is available). markets. UKTI currently supports around 25,000 In Swindon, 12,750 adult learners participated in companies each year. Additional funding made available Further Education and Skills during the 2010/11 academic in the last autumn statement, along with new partnerships year. This figure is based on the home postcode of the with business intermediaries such as banks, legal firms learner. and accountants, will help to double the number of These figures are derived from the Individualised companies supported over the next three years. Learner Record (ILR). The figures are rounded to the In addition, UK Export Finance has recently expanded nearest 10. its product range to provide further help for UK exporters, Further information relating to participation in Further especially SMEs. These products address risk of non- Education and Skills broken down by geography is payment, contract bonds, working capital and foreign published in the Supplementary Tables of the Department’s exchange risk. Post-16 Education Statistical First Release (SFR). These Companies can be found at the following link: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ further_education_skills/ Business, Innovation and Skills if he will request the Financial Reporting Council to publish an annual Bank Cards: Fees and Charges report on the operation of the UK Stewardship Code. [114120]

Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: The Financial Reporting Council has Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to already undertaken to produce an annual report on the publish the consultation on implementing Article 19 of operation of the UK Stewardship Code. the Consumer Rights Directive on excessive card surcharges. [113305] Executives: Pay

Norman Lamb [holding answer 25 June 2012]: The Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Government shares consumers’ concerns about the high Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the level of payment surcharges imposed by some businesses. update of the Financial Reporting Council’s Corporate On 23 December 2011 we announced our intention to Governance Code to codify current best practice, what consult on implementing the payment surcharges provision constitutes a significant minority of shareholders of the Consumer Rights Directive ahead of the June voting against a pay resolution in an advisory vote. 2014 deadline. We intend to issue a full 12 week consultation [114146] in the summer to seek views on the timing of implementation and other details on how the provision Norman Lamb: The Financial Reporting Council should be applied. Responses to the consultation will will consult on this proposal once the Government’s inform our decision on timing and our guidance to legislative reforms to directors’ remuneration has been businesses. finalised. 383W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 384W

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to his Innovation and Skills what information companies will proposals on executive pay, what the criteria will be for be required to publish on consultation with employees a change in company remuneration policy; and over director pay policy following implementation of whether a company’s board or shareholders will be the his proposals on executive pay. [114150] arbiter of whether a change in remuneration policy has occurred that would trigger a binding vote. [114147] Norman Lamb: The Government has published, for comment, draft regulations which determine what Norman Lamb: Companies will only be able to make companies must report on directors’ pay. These draft remuneration payments which are consistent with the regulations include the proposal that the report includes last directors’ remuneration policy to have been approved a statement on whether and if so how a company by shareholders. Therefore any revisions to policy will sought employee views on the remuneration policy. need to be put to a binding vote of shareholders before they can form part of the legally recognised and approved Higher Education remuneration policy. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how his Department Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking communicates the information that a course is to be to ensure that companies do not draft director pay designated for higher education purposes to the (a) policies broadly to avoid annual binding votes on Student Loans Company, (b) Quality Assurance Agency directors’ pay as part of his proposals on executive pay. and (c) Higher Education Funding Council for England. [114148] [114456]

Norman Lamb: The Government has published revised Mr Willetts: The information requested is as follows. regulations which determine what must be included in (a) Course designation decisions are communicated to providers the directors’ remuneration report. For the first time, by the Student Loans Company (SLC). The SLC maintains a list companies will be required to set out for every element of designated courses on its website: of pay that a director could be entitled to how it http://www.practitioners.slc.co.uk/policy-information/ supports the achievement of strategic objectives of the designated-courses.aspx company, the maximum value that could be awarded, (b) and (c) The Quality Assurance Agency (QAA) and the and performance measures that will be applied. Higher Education Funding Council (HEFCE) are able to access the information through the SLC website as above. The binding vote on policy gives shareholders new powers to challenge companies that are not providing Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for sufficient detail in their policy. Business, Innovation and Skills whether due diligence Companies will not be able to make payments outside checks for higher education course designation take the scope of the approved policy. It is therefore in into account the applicant’s parent company. [114457] companies’ interests to be clear about their pay policy so that they can ensure they have proper shareholder Mr Willetts: The due diligence checks currently approval for future payments. undertaken, for higher education course designation, take account of a range of factors including consideration Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for of the applicant’s parent company. Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to his oral As set out in the Government Response to the White statement of 20 June 2012, Official Report, column Paper consultation we will be reviewing the existing 867, on executive pay, for what reasons he has proposed student support course designation system for alternative a 50 per cent threshold for shareholders’ advisory providers to include more robust and transparent votes. [114149] requirements on quality assurance, financial sustainability and management and governance. Norman Lamb: Earlier this year a small number of investors suggested that the voting threshold for Higher Education: Admissions remuneration resolutions should be increased, but when the Government consulted on this most businesses and Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for investors were not in favour. In particular they were Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many and what concerned about the potentially disruptive effect of a proportion of pupils in the (a) poorest and (b) richest large minority shareholder. one per cent of areas entered (i) any university, (ii) a We have listened to these concerns and all remuneration Russell Group university and (iii) Oxbridge in the last resolutions will require a simple majority to pass. Recent year for which figures are available; [114138] shareholder activism has shown that shareholders can (2) how many and what proportion of pupils in the muster a 50% vote against where they have major (a) poorest and (b) richest 10 per cent of areas entered concerns. (i) any university, (ii) a Russell Group university and The Government also welcomes the Confederation (iii) Oxbridge in the last year for which figures are of British Industries’ call for companies to respond available. [114139] formally when a significant number of shareholders vote against a pay resolution—even where the vote is Mr Willetts: The information requested is not available passed—and for this to be enshrined in the Corporate centrally. The Department for Business, Innovation and Governance Code. Skills (BIS) publication “Widening Participation in Higher 385W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 386W

Education”, August 2011 shows proportions of maintained Medicine: Education school pupils who entered higher education by local authority area. Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State http://www.bis.gov.uk/analysis/statistics/higher-education/ for Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of official-statistics-releases/widening-participation-in-higher- students who entered medical schools in the UK were education/analysis-of-progression-rates-for-young-people-in- educated in a UK state school in the latest period for england-by-free-school-meal-receipt which figures are available; what proportion of such The Higher Education Funding Council for England students were (a) male and (b) female; what the (HEFCE) publication “Trends in young participation breakdown of ethnicity was of such students; and if he in higher education” of January 2010 gives information will make a statement. [114331] on participation for areas classified by participation rates. This shows, for cohorts from the late 2000s, Mr Willetts: Figures from the Higher Education Statistics typically fewer than one in five young people from the Agency (HESA) show that in academic year 2010-11, most disadvantaged 20% of areas enter higher education, 50% of UK domiciled students who entered full-time compared to more than one in two from the most first degree courses in medicine and dentistry subjects at advantaged 20% of areas. UK higher education institutions had applied from a http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/year/2010/201003/ state school. The denominator to calculate this figure includes students whose previous institution before HE was a state school, independent school, further education Manufacturing Industries: Drugs institution or higher education institution. It excludes students whose previous institution attended is unknown. Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for The following tables contain information on gender Business, Innovation and Skills how many people are and ethnicity. employed in the pharmaceutical sector in (a) the UK, Proportions of UK domiciled entrants to full-time first degree (b) the East Midlands, (c) Nottinghamshire and (d) medicine and dentistry courses at UK HEIs from state schools, by gender and ethnicity Ashfield constituency. [114255] Percentage

Mr Prisk: The manufacture of pharmaceutical products Gender and preparations employed the following numbers of Female 56 people in the UK, East Midlands and Nottinghamshire Male 44 between 2008 and 2010. Employment data estimates for the Ashfield constituency and for Nottinghamshire in Ethnic group 2008 cannot be provided as this would infringe of the White 71 legal confidentiality rights of companies operating there. Black 3 Employment in the pharmaceuticals manufacturing industry 2008-10 Asian 21 Nottinghamshire East Midlands United Kingdom Mixed 4 2008 — 1,600 44,000 Other ethnic background 2 2009 500 1,900 46,000 Notes: 1. Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population. 2010 1,000 2,300 45,000 2. Covers students in their first year of study. Source: Source: NOMIS, Annual Business Survey; both ONS Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA)

Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Overseas Trade: Central Africa Business, Innovation and Skills what the value of the pharmaceutical sector is to the economy of (a) the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for UK, (b) the East Midlands, (c) Nottinghamshire and Business, Innovation and Skills what the primary (a) (d) Ashfield constituency. [114289] imported and (b) exported goods and services are between the UK and (i) the Democratic Republic of Mr Prisk: The manufacture of pharmaceutical products Congo and (ii) the Central African Republic. [114362] and preparations contributed the following amounts of Gross Value Added to the UK economy overall and the Mr Prisk: In 2011, the UK exported goods to the East Midlands economy between 2008 and 2010. This value of £23.7 million to the Democratic Republic of data is not collected at the county and constituency Congo (DRoC), and imported goods to the value of level and regional data is not yet available for 2010. £3.6 million. Gross value added of the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry In 2011, the UK exported goods to the value of £ million £0.7 million to the Central African Republic (CAR) East Midlands United Kingdom and imported goods to the value of £0.1 million. The top five goods traded between the UK and the 2008 95 9,631 Democratic Republic of Congo (DRoC) and the Central 2009 143 11,712 African Republic (CAR) are listed in the following 2010 — 11,065 table, using the Standard International Trade Classification Source: (SITC) at 2 digit detail. Regional Annual Business Survey 2009 and UK National Accounts; both ONS No services trade data are available for 2011. 387W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 388W

In 2010, the UK exported services to the value of £9 UK imports from CAR 2011 million to the Democratic Republic of Congo and SITC-2 £ sterling Percentage imported services to the value of £8 million. No product 89—Miscellaneous manufactured 8,500 6.7 breakdown is available. In 2010 Her Majesty’s Revenue articles n.e.s. and Customs (HMRC) reported total goods exports of £15 million to the Democratic Republic of Congo and Notes: total goods imports of £4 million. 1. Only two product groups were imported from CAR in 2011 2. Data are rounded to the nearest 100. UK exports and imports of services from the Central Source: African Republic were less than £0.5 million in 2010. In HMRC Overseas Trade Statistics (Goods), ONS Balance of 2010 HMRC reported total goods exports of £0.7 million Payments (Services) to the Central African Republic and total goods imports of £0.1 million. Overseas Trade: Syria It should be noted that HMRC goods and Office for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for National Statistics (ONS) services trade data are not Business, Innovation and Skills what the primary (a) reported on a wholly consistent basis. imported and (b) exported goods and services are between the UK and Syria. [114363] UK exports to DRoC 2011 SITC-2 £ sterling Percentage Mr Prisk: In 2011, the UK exported goods to the value of £85.3 million to Syria, and imported goods to Total 23,655,600 — the value of £20.9 million. The top five goods traded between the UK and Syria are listed in the following table, using the Standard 78—Road vehicles (including air cushion 9,462,100 40.0 vehicles) International Trade Classification (SITC) at 2 digit detail.

59—Chemical materials and products 2,348,600 9.9 No services trade data are available for 2011. In 2010 n.e.s. the UK exported services to the value of £50 million to Syria and imported services to the value of £30 million 11—Beverages 1,903.500 8.0 from Syria. No product breakdown is available. In 2010 72—Machinery specialized for particular 1,750,100 7.4 Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) reported industries total goods exports of £133 million to Syria and total 74—General industrial machinery and 1,360,700 5.8 goods imports of £26 million from Syria. It should be equipment and machine parts n.e.s. noted that HMRC goods and Office for National Statistics UK Imports from DRoC 2011 (ONS) services trade data are not reported on a wholly SITC-2 £ sterling Percentage consistent basis.

Total 3,572,100 — UK exports to Syria 2011 SITC-2 £ sterling Percentage

91—Postal packages not classified 1,263,300 35.4 Total 85,310,100 — according to kind 28—Metalliferous ores and metal scrap 1,128,000 31.6 24—Cork and wood 672,000 18.8 71—Power generating machinery 12,977,400 15.2 and equipment 68—Non-ferrous metals 135,900 3.8 54—Medicinal and 7,221,300 8.5 87—Professional, scientific and 135,100 3.8 pharmaceutical products controlling instruments and apparatus n.e.s. 69—Manufactures of metal n.e.s. 7,047,700 8.3 74—General industrial machinery 6,890,300 8.1 UK exports to CAR 2011 and equipment and machine parts SITC-2 £ sterling Percentage n.e.s. 72—Machinery specialized for 5,922,700 6.9 Total 690,300 — particular industries

11—Beverages 125,100 18.1 UK imports from Syria 2011 87—Professional, scientific and 108,000 15.7 SITC-2 £ sterling Percentage controlling instruments and apparatus Total 20,915,700 — n.e.s. 53—Dyeing, tanning and colouring 61,300 8.9 materials 71—Power generating machinery 5,996,000 28.7 78—Road vehicles (including air 55,500 8.0 and equipment cushion vehicles) 26—Textile fibres not 5,285,400 25.3 76—Telecommunications and sound 55,100 8.0 manufactured and their waste etc recording and reproducing apparatus 84—Articles of apparel and 4,505,400 21.5 and equipment clothing accessories 65—Textile yarn, fabrics, made up 819,000 3.9 UK imports from CAR 2011 articles etc SITC-2 £ sterling Percentage 79—Other transport equipment 724,300 3.5 Total 126,300 — Note: Data are rounded to nearest 100 Source: 72—Machinery specialized for 117,900 93.3 HMRC Overseas Trade Statistics (Goods), ONS Balance of particular industries Payments (Services) 389W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 390W

Regulation For colleges, simplified performance management and payment arrangements are in place. Colleges are not Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for subject to in-year performance management; their funding Business, Innovation and Skills what regulations his is assessed following the end of each academic year. Department introduced between 1 February and 31 Colleges are expected to deliver their agency funding May 2012; and at what cost to the public purse. allocation in line with their assessment of community, [114098] stakeholder and employer needs, Government ambitions and funding requirements. This includes a continued Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation emphasis on delivering high quality provision. and Skills has introduced 13 regulations between 1 The current Adult Safeguarded Learning programme February and 31 May 2012. The information on the (which will be renamed as Adult Community Learning cost to the public purse is not readily available and in the 2012/13 academic year), is used to support the could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. design and delivery of a wide range of learning opportunities in every geographical area. The adult and Vocational Training community learning programme is intended to widen participation and, in particular, to focus some of the activity specifically on deprived areas and disadvantaged Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for groups. Business, Innovation and Skills how the Skills Funding Agency monitors the effectiveness of (a) sub-contractors A key effectiveness measure for this programme is the and (b) lead contractors delivering (i) the adult skills numbers of learners engaged. The numbers of learners budget, (ii) 16-18 apprenticeships and (iii) adult community are important as Government policy in this area is to learning programmes; and what its key outcome maintain the numbers funded through this programme. performance indicators are for each. [113651] The agency’s aim is to reach as many learners from areas of disadvantage as possible. Agency relationship Mr Hayes: The agency manages all providers it contracts managers review with contractors: with using a national performance management framework. planned numbers of learners; This framework is based on a single account management allocation and funding; approach, which partners each college or provider with actual numbers of learners engaged; one account manager in the agency. This approach cost per learner for each programme. encompasses all funding provided to them, such as the adult skills budget, 16-18 apprenticeships and adult The Skills Funding Agency is committed to a high community learning programmes. quality offer and over time performance and quality arrangements are covered in performance management The account manager works closely with the college discussions, and reference is also made to any relevant or provider throughout the delivery of the learning or inspection data and learner management information. training, monitoring performance against its contracts with the agency and working with the contractor to ensure that our quality standards are met and ensure Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for that provision is effective: Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment he has made of the management fees charged to sub- http://skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk/providers/quality/ contractors by the lead contractors of Skills Funding Performance is measured against the terms and Agency programmes. [113652] conditions of these contracts and meeting the contract in funding terms. Providers are encouraged to ensure Mr Hayes: The chief executive of the Skills Funding their offer meets the needs of local employers and Agency has a statutory duty to make best use of the learners. agency’s resources when securing the provision of education The assessment of quality remains the key performance and training. Therefore there is an expectation that the measure within the freedoms and flexibilities of providers funding provided is used for the benefit of the learner to respond to what employers and learners demand. and spent on their learning programme or provision. The agency uses qualification success rate of learners The amount of funding retained by a lead provider for participating in programmes and this is also provided to programmes and provision delivered in whole, or part, Ofsted to underpin their inspection work. The agency by a subcontractor must represent good value for money uses a minimum level of performance policy to intervene and reflect the actual costs incurred by each party in the where success rates fall below a national standard. delivery of that provision. This approach is used in conjunction with wider The agency published the fees and costs associated provider performance management protocols which ensure with subcontracting taken from the Declaration of public funding is maximised and spent effectively. Subcontractor forms submitted by lead providers on For all provision funded within the single adult skills our website on 22 June 2012. This is designed to enhance budget delivered by private training providers (including transparency; however, the level of these fees varies 16-18 and 19+ apprenticeships), performance management considerably as the nature of respective services provided reviews are conducted at quarterly points throughout by lead providers and their subcontractors also varies a the contract year. Adjustments to contracts are made great deal. where performance against cash profiles for the period The agency will shortly be publishing its intention to in question is outside of our published tolerance levels. require independent assessment of the nature and Where there is a pattern of under-delivery, the agency reasonableness of subcontracting fees for each such reduces the maximum contract values to reflect some or arrangement and will work with the FE sector on the all of the value of the under-delivery. detail in the coming weeks. 391W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 392W

Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Private Hire Vehicles Business, Innovation and Skills how the Skills Funding Agency assesses the suitability of those sub-contractors Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport involved in delivering apprenticeships which are not pursuant to the Answer of 20 June 2012, Official Report, required to complete the Due Diligence Assurance column 1016W,on private hire vehicles: Greater London, Gateway. [113653] what assessment she has made of the share of the taxi and private hire market held by (a) Addison Lee and Mr Hayes: The primary responsibility for assessing (b) other companies. [114305] the suitability for sub-contractors rests with the lead provider with whom the agency contracts. As of last Norman Baker: Under devolution, transport in year, the agency also required all sub-contractors with London is the responsibility of the Mayor and an aggregate contract value of £500,000 and over to go Transport for London. As such, the Department for through its gateway assurance process. This is the same Transport has made no assessment of the share of the process the agency uses to assess the providers it funds taxi and private hire market of Addison Lee and other directly. This requirement has now been extended to all companies. It is open to the Law Commission to take sub-contractors and they have until December 2012 to issues relating to market share into account as part of provide the necessary assurance. their consideration of the law around taxis and private However, the agency’s gateway assurance process does hire vehicles, should they think this relevant. not remove any responsibility from the lead provider in relation to assurances it needs to seek in relation to Railways entering sub-contracting arrangements. Rather, it supports those arrangements and also enables a public list of Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for sub-contractors that have passed a lead provider and Transport what preparations she has made for the next the agency’s checks to be used by lead providers and the rail High Level Output Specification. [114038] agency in making procurement judgments. Justine Greening: I know my hon. Friend will have welcomed our recent commitment to improve line speed on the Calder Valley route as part of our commitment TRANSPORT to the Northern Hub. Extensive preparations have been Railways made for the next rail High Level Output Specification which will be published by July 2012, building on the 16. Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for £18 billion of investment we are making in this spending Transport what steps her Department is taking to review period. reduce the carbon intensity of the railways. [114056] Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Villiers: Rail electrification reduces reliance on Transport what steps she is taking to make rail companies carbon-intensive fossil fuels. The Government is more accountable to the travelling public. [114053] funding an ambitious electrification programme including the TransPennine route between York, Leeds Mrs Villiers: As set out in the Government’s Command and Manchester and various schemes in the north west Paper in March, future passenger train operators will of England and the Great Western route. be held to account through binding service quality commitments on key service aspects such as stations. My Department also includes environmental objectives in rail franchises which require train The National Passenger Survey and the work of Passenger operators to develop plans to measure and reduce Focus will inform decisions on the requirements we will environmental impacts, including carbon emissions. place in future franchises on passenger satisfaction. Network Rail has announced proposals to Longbridge Station strengthen the ability of public members to hold the company to account, and to appoint a public interest Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for director to its board. Transport pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood of 14 June 2012, Official Rolling Stock: Procurement Report, column 533W,on railway stations, what account she takes of the role of Longbridge Station in the Jenny Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for regeneration of the local area when considering the Transport what recent progress she has made on the proposals put forward by London Midland. [113064] Intercity Express Programme rolling stock contract. [114040] Mrs Villiers: The criteria to be used in arbitrating London Midland’s proposal to amend ticket office opening Mrs Villiers: Negotiations with Agility Trains on the hours are those set out in section 6-18 of the Ticketing Intercity Express Programme’s two main contractual and Settlement Agreement (TSA). The TSA covers the documents are now substantially complete. We expect various arrangements between train operators relating to reach financial close soon. to the carriage of passengers and the retailing of tickets. This includes requirements on protecting passenger access Transport to the purchase of rail products following any change to ticket office opening hours. The TSA is owned and Mr Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport maintained by the Association of Train Operating what recent progress she has made on transport Companies, and is available from their website at infrastructure projects announced in the Autumn Statement. www.atoc.org [114037] 393W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 394W

Justine Greening: The Government are not just fixing Mr O’Brien: The United Nations currently estimates the disgraceful legacy of debt left to us by the Labour that the food crisis in the Sahel Region of West Africa party but are also building for our country’s success in has left over 18 million people at risk of food shortage future—and that means investing in transport. At the over the next few months. Around 6.4 million of these autumn statement we announced £2.5 billion more in people are in Niger. transport investment, building on the £30 billion set out Having visited the region earlier this month, I can in the spending review. An update on the progress made confirm that the scale of the needs are great, but UK on the priority infrastructure investments identified in assistance is achieving results. the 2011 national infrastructure plan was published In response to the unfolding crisis, the UK provided alongside the Budget in March. two contributions of £5 million each in January and March 2012. I am pleased to confirm that we have announced over INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT the past two weeks a further package of assistance. Developing Countries: Water Worth an additional £15.4 million, this more than doubles UK assistance to the region in 2012, to a total of Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State £25.4 million. for International Development what recent steps the Through this assistance, British aid this year will Government has taken to improve access to water in support 1.6 million people at risk of hunger across the developing world. [113948] Mali, Niger, Chad, Mauritania and Burkina Faso, to achieve the following results: Mr O’Brien: At the Sanitation and Water for All improved nutrition for 185,000 children and women (including High Level Meeting in Washington on 20 April 2012, therapeutic treatment to save the lives of over 110,000 severely the Secretary of State for International Development, malnourished children under five years old); my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield food and cash vouchers for over 250,000 men, women and (Mr Mitchell), announced that the UK will double its children; results for the number of people we will reach with livelihoods support to over 980,000 people through: WaSH programmes. The UK has committed to reach at (a) the provision of seeds and tools for families to enable them least 60 million people by 2015. Details of how we will to feed themselves for the next year and; deliver the scaled-up ambition are under development. (b) animal feed and vaccinations to keep farmers’ livestock The Department for International Development is alive. currently implementing nine major WaSH bilateral These direct funds are in addition to £27 million of programmes in Africa (Tanzania, Mozambique, Malawi, UK contributions also being provided in 2012 to the Zambia, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Democratic Republic of Sahel region through multilateral agencies such as the Congo, Nigeria and Sierra Leone) and four in South European Community Humanitarian Office (ECHO) Asia (India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Vietnam). We also and the United Nations Central Emergency Response contribute to the results achieved by multilateral Fund (CERF). organisations including the European Commission, the My officials and I will continue to monitor the situation World Bank, UNICEF and the African Development Bank. closely, and liaise with our opposite numbers in other Developing Countries: Water Governments to urge that other countries also take their fair share of the response. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps the Government Procurement is taking to support the work of WaterAid in the developing world. [113947] Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what account his Department takes of Mr O’Brien: WaterAid is an important partner for the Government’s transparency agenda in formulating the Department for International Development (DFID). its procurement policy. [113897] WaterAid and other NGOs will be essential partners in helping us to scale up our results in WaSH, as announced Mr O’Brien: DFID is committed to the Government’s on 20 April 2012. transparency agenda and the procurement reform objectives Details of the funding provided by DFID to WaterAid being led by the Government Procurement Service within for the period 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011 are the Cabinet Office. At an international level, DFID led provided in Statistics for International Development discussions on transparency in aid effectiveness at the (SID) 2011. Table 19 of SID provides information on High Level Forum in Busan (South Korea) in November WaterAid. This information is available on the DFID 2011. DFID takes account of the transparency agenda website: when formulating its procurement policy. http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-us/How-we-measure-progress/ DFID demonstrated its commitment to the transparency Aid-Statistics/Statistics-on-International-Development-2011/ About-Statistics-on-International-Development-2011-/ agenda with the early adoption of the Government “Contracts Finder”website to publish tender and contract Niger documentation and the modification of contract terms and conditions to enable the publication of information. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of In April 2012 DFID also began publishing its Procurement State for International Development what recent Pipeline to provide improved transparency to enable assessment he has made of the humanitarian situation businesses to compete more effectively for contracts. in Niger; and if he will make a statement. [114286] The UK was the first donor agency to publish data 395W Written Answers28 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 396W using the International Aid Transparency Initiative (IATI) Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office standard which covers all aspects of DFID business, (FCO), British Council, Great Britain and China Centre including procurement. (GBCC), Marshall Aid Commemoration Commission DFID also ensures the monthly publication of electronic (MACC) and Westminster Foundation for Democracy payments, including procurement card transactions in (WFD) do not own any vehicles in the UK. excess of £500, to the external website. DFID is making The FCO uses the Government Car and Despatch good progress with staff training and the ongoing Agency for its transport requirements in the UK. development of key systems to ensure that it is fully FCO Services, a trading fund of the FCO, currently supporting all aspects of the transparency agenda. owns and operates 43 vehicles within its UK fleet. Wilton Park, an academically independent and non-profit making executive agency of the FCO, owns one vehicle. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Iran Pakistan Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) whether the Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Government plans to raise with other states the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations imprisonment and torture of Houtan Kian in Iran for he has made to the Government of Pakistan following legally defending Sakineh Ashtiani; [114099] the death of Fukraz Begum. [113966] (2) whether he has made any representations to the Iranian authorities on the imprisonment and torture of Alistair Burt: During the recent visit by the Secretary Houtan Kian in Iran for legally defending Sakineh of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my Ashtiani; and if he will make a statement. [114100] right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), to Pakistan, he met with Prime Minister Alistair Burt: We remain concerned about the fate of Gilani on 12 June. During this meeting he did not raise Mr Javad Houtan Kian, who is guilty of nothing more any specific consular cases though he did raise wider than defending his client Sakineh Ashtiani and has no concerns over access to British detainees. case to answer. Iran should overturn his sentence and The British high commission to Pakistan were made release him immediately. We are further concerned by aware of Fukraz Begum’s case by her family on 23 April the mistreatment he is reported to have faced. This is 2012. Consular staff are providing appropriate consular something the Secretary of State for Foreign and assistance to Mrs Begum’s family. Victim Support have Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member been notified and consular staff continue to be in for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), addressed in his contact with the local authorities on the police investigation. speech to the ‘Imprisoned in Iran’ event hosted by The Times newspaper in September 2011. We raised Mr Kian’s Palestinians case with the Iranian authorities before the closure of our respective embassies late last year, and continue to Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State call frequently on Iran to meet its international human for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent rights obligations. We will continue work with our steps he has taken regarding the Palestinian prisoner international partners to ensure that Mr Kian’s case is Mahmoud Sarsak. [113946] not forgotten. The UK and its EU partners have sanctioned a number of individuals responsible for human rights abuses in Iran, including the prosecutor in Ashtiani’s case. Alistair Burt: We monitored closely Mr Mahmoud Sarsak’s hunger strike and were pleased to receive reports Israel that, following a review of his case by the Israeli Supreme Court, Mr Sarsak ended his hunger strike on 18 June as Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State part of a deal that will lead to his release on 10 July. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what We have longstanding concerns about the situation discussions he has had with the government of Israel and treatment of Palestinians, held in Israeli detention, on its Unlawful Combatants Law. [113954] including children. In this regard, we have followed closely the hunger strike by many Palestinian detainees. Alistair Burt: While we have not had any direct We welcomed the agreement reached on 14 May to end discussion with the Israeli Government on its Unlawful the mass hunger strike by Palestinian prisoners. We Combatants Law. Our officials in Tel Aviv have repeatedly particularly welcomed Israel’s agreement to limit the lobbied Israel to either charge, or release Palestinian use of administrative detention and solitary confinement detainees held in administrative detention, so they have and reinstate family visits for detainees. These important discussed with the Israelis the use of the law. issues, particularly Israel’s extensive use of administrative Official Cars detention, are ones which we have repeatedly raised with the Israeli ambassador and the Israeli Government, Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for including in May with the Israeli Foreign Minister, Vice Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Prime Minister and National Security Adviser. We will vehicles are owned by his Department, its agencies and follow closely the implementation of the agreement and non-departmental bodies in the UK. [113693] its impact on the situation of Palestinian detainees.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 28 June 2012

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 425 TRANSPORT—continued Airport Capacity (South-East)...... 426 Road Infrastructure ...... 432 Automotive Fuel ...... 429 Road Maintenance...... 428 Brown Tourist Signs...... 433 Topical Questions ...... 437 Concessionary Bus Travel ...... 425 Transport Infrastructure Projects...... 429 Cycling Safety ...... 432 Double-decker Trains...... 436 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 442 Driving Licence Renewals ...... 437 Black and Minority Ethnic Communities ...... 445 Motoring Costs...... 434 Default Retirement Age ...... 444 Rail Franchises ...... 435 Forced Marriage ...... 444 Road Congestion (Shipley) ...... 434 Welfare Reform (Disabled People) ...... 442 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 28 June 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 21WS HEALTH—continued Industrial Development Act 1982 ...... 21WS Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority/ Human Tissue Authority (Transfer of DEFENCE...... 22WS Functions) ...... 26WS National Employer Advisory Board...... 22WS Reserves (Call-Out Order)...... 22WS JUSTICE...... 26WS Data Protection...... 26WS EDUCATION...... 22WS Education Reform...... 22WS TREASURY ...... 21WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 23WS VAT (Anomalies) ...... 21WS Afghanistan ...... 23WS Overseas Territories ...... 24WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 27WS Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer HEALTH...... 25WS Affairs Council ...... 27WS Care Quality Commission Market Report ...... 25WS Right to Control (Pilot Scheme)...... 28WS PETITION

Thursday 28 June 2012

Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT...... 5P Biometric Centre, Leicester ...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 28 June 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 381W CABINET OFFICE...... 377W Adult Education ...... 381W Charities ...... 377W Bank Cards: Fees and Charges...... 381W Regulation ...... 377W Banks...... 382W Companies...... 382W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 328W Executives: Pay ...... 382W Families: Disadvantaged ...... 328W Higher Education...... 384W Planning Permission ...... 328W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 384W Manufacturing Industries: Drugs...... 385W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 328W Medicine: Education...... 386W Arts...... 328W Overseas Trade: Central Africa ...... 386W E-mail ...... 330W Overseas Trade: Syria...... 388W Flags: British Overseas Territories ...... 331W Regulation ...... 389W Mental Health...... 331W Vocational Training...... 389W Mobile Phones ...... 331W Press Officers ...... 333W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Rebekah Brooks...... 333W Police: Pensions...... 349W Regulation ...... 333W Police: Training ...... 349W Police: Vehicles...... 349W DEFENCE...... 350W Prisoners: Repatriation ...... 350W Armed Forces ...... 350W Publications ...... 350W Armed Forces: Recruitment ...... 351W Cyprus: Military Bases...... 355W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 393W Developing Countries: Water ...... 393W EDUCATION...... 370W Developing Countries: Water ...... 393W Children’s Centres: Birmingham...... 370W Niger...... 393W Class Sizes...... 370W Procurement...... 394W First Aid: Training ...... 371W Primary Education: Admissions...... 371W JUSTICE...... 337W Recruitment ...... 373W Debts Written Off ...... 337W Schools: Defibrillators ...... 375W Early Guilty Plea Scheme...... 338W Sixth Form Education...... 375W Employment Tribunals Service...... 338W Sixth Form Education: Finance ...... 375W Prison Officers ...... 339W Sixth Form Education: GCE A Level...... 376W Procurement...... 339W Students: Statistics ...... 376W Reoffenders...... 340W Squatting ...... 340W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 341W Young Offenders ...... 341W Electricity: Meters...... 341W Energy: Prices ...... 341W PRIME MINISTER ...... 327W Green Deal Scheme...... 342W Members: Correspondence ...... 327W Procurement...... 342W Publications ...... 343W TRANSPORT ...... 391W Longbridge Station...... 391W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Private Hire Vehicles...... 392W AFFAIRS...... 336W Railways...... 391W Agricultural Wages Board...... 336W Railways...... 392W Gangmasters Licensing Authority...... 336W Rolling Stock: Procurement...... 392W Livestock: Transport ...... 337W Transport ...... 392W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 395W TREASURY ...... 334W Iran...... 395W EU Customs Information System ...... 334W Israel...... 395W Finance Act 2008 ...... 334W Official Cars...... 395W Gift Aid ...... 334W Pakistan ...... 396W Infrastructure...... 335W Palestinians ...... 396W Members: Correspondence ...... 335W Publications ...... 335W HEALTH...... 377W VAT ...... 336W Ambulance Services ...... 377W Buildings...... 378W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES ...... 327W Community Nurses...... 378W Children: Day Care ...... 327W Dental Services ...... 378W Human Trafficking Ministerial Group...... 327W Home Visits ...... 378W Same-sex Civil Marriages...... 327W Meals On Wheels ...... 379W Procurement...... 379W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 356W South London Healthcare NHS Trust ...... 379W Children: Maintenance ...... 356W Thalidomide...... 380W Crisis Loans: Scotland ...... 357W Disability ...... 357W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 343W Disability: Children...... 358W Antisocial Behaviour...... 343W Employment Schemes ...... 359W Asylum: EU Countries...... 343W Employment Schemes: West Midlands...... 360W Community Safety Accreditation Schemes ...... 344W Energy...... 359W Databases: Telecommunications ...... 344W Government Procurement Card ...... 361W Demonstrations ...... 345W Housing Benefit ...... 362W Detention Centres: Pregnant Women...... 345W Housing Benefit: East Lothian...... 363W Essex Police Authority ...... 345W Housing Benefit: Offenders...... 363W Illegal Immigrants: Frontex ...... 345W Industrial Health and Safety: Legionnaires’ Ministry of Defence Police and Guarding Agency. 346W Disease...... 364W Passports...... 346W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 364W Pay...... 347W Pay...... 364W Police ...... 347W Pensioners: British Nationals Abroad ...... 367W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 347W Poverty: EU Internal Trade...... 367W Police: Complaints ...... 347W Retirement ...... 367W Police: Health...... 348W Skilled Workers...... 368W Police: Information and Communications Social Fund...... 368W Technology ...... 348W Universal Credit...... 369W Police: Pay...... 349W Work Capability Assessment...... 370W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Thursday 28 June 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 425] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Transport Minister for Women and Equality

Business of the House [Col. 447] Statement—(Sir George Young)

LIBOR (FSA Investigation [Col. 463] Statement—(Chancellor of the Exchequer)

Backbench Business Green Economy [Col. 481] Motion—(Laura Sandys)—agreed to Minister for Older People [Col. 527] Motion—(Penny Mordaunt)—agreed to

Young Offender Institutions (Speech and Language Therapy) [Col. 558] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Social Mobility [Col. 139WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 21WS]

Petition [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 327W] [see index inside back page]