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Parliamentary Debates (Hansard) Wednesday Volume 527 11 May 2011 No. 155 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Wednesday 11 May 2011 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 1145 11 MAY 2011 1146 12. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): House of Commons What progress has been made on the Government’s commitment to undertake a process similar to the Wednesday 11 May 2011 Calman commission on devolution funding; and if she will make a statement. [54363] The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Following the yes vote in the referendum on further PRAYERS powers, we have started to consider the scope and form of such a process. Now that the elections to the National [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Assembly have taken place I intend to discuss the process with other stakeholders and the First Minister. May I also take this opportunity while I am at the Dispatch Box to offer our congratulations to Carwyn Oral Answers to Questions Jones, who is currently considering forming the Welsh Assembly Government and has the largest party in the Welsh Assembly? WALES Mary Macleod: Our priority in Wales and elsewhere The Secretary of State was asked— right now is to ensure that the deficit is under control. However, now that Ministers in the Welsh Assembly Council Tax Benefit have more power, is it not right that they should be financially accountable for those powers as well? 1. Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Mrs Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Work and Pensions and the Welsh Assembly There is indeed a body of thought that believes that Government on proposals to transfer responsibility for with the power to spend public money should come council tax benefit to local authorities. [54352] accountability, and this is certainly a matter that we will be looking at. However, this is not something that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales should be entered into in haste, and I intend to engage (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary fully with the Welsh Assembly Government on the of State and I have had discussions with Cabinet colleagues matter. and Welsh Assembly Government Ministers on a range of issues, including welfare reform. Stephen Mosley: The national border between north-east Jenny Willott: As the Minister may know, there is a Wales and Chester is almost unique in that it passes great deal of concern that people in Wales will struggle through an urban area, with large numbers of people to get council tax benefit if the Welsh Assembly refuses travelling in both directions every day for health care, to devolve the benefit to local authorities in Wales, as education and employment. Will my right hon. Friend the Government are doing in England. Will he work ensure that the remit of the review specifically includes with the Welsh Assembly Government and the Department looking at the impact of devolution on such cross-border for Work and Pensions to ensure that council tax benefit services? is devolved to either all local authorities across the UK or none? Mrs Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend that question too, because he knows that we in the Wales Office have Mr Jones: Localisation of council tax benefit is part been concerned about cross-border issues and their of the wider package of reform set out in the Welfare impact on health in particular. I cannot guarantee that Reform Bill, which will ensure that work always pays. that will fall within the scope of the Calman-like process, We are indeed committed to full consultation with the but I assure him that I will take into consideration any Welsh Assembly Government on the devolved implications representations that he or any other Member wishes to of the reforms. The Assembly Government will no make to the Wales Office. doubt wish to consult when they have developed their own policy options, but ultimately it is for them to Andrew Selous: Does my right hon. Friend agree that decide how the delivery arrangements are put in place reforming the thoroughly discredited Barnett formula in Wales. to take a fair and transparent needs-based approach for Devolution Funding the whole of the United Kingdom would help Wales and England? 2. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): What progress has been made on the Government’s Mrs Gillan: The Government’s commitment to a commitment to undertake a process similar to the wider review of the Barnett formula is clear, but stabilisation Calman commission on devolution funding; and if she of the public finances comes first. I think we all recognise will make a statement. [54353] that the Barnett formula is coming to the end of its life, but we will consider a change to the system only once 4. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What we have put the public finances in order. There was a progress has been made on the Government’s good reason why the predecessor Government to this commitment to undertake a process similar to the one made no changes to the Barnett formula in 13 years. Calman commission on devolution funding; and if she It is not something that can be achieved in haste, only to will make a statement. [54355] be regretted at leisure. 1147 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1148 Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): May I ask the Secretary Mr Speaker: Order. I just remind the House that we of State to take great care when she deals with these are on the subject of devolution funding. issues? As she knows, there is really no appetite in Wales for tax-varying or tax-raising powers—the resource base Mr Hain: I know that the hon. Members for Cardiff is not there—and even if there were, we would have to North (Jonathan Evans) and for Vale of Glamorgan have a referendum in Wales for such powers, as happened (Alun Cairns) will disagree with the Secretary of State in Scotland. on that, because Labour won the Assembly seats in their constituencies with thumping majorities. If, as the Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, Chief Secretary to the Treasury suggested yesterday, because I always remember sitting and listening to him Alex Salmond is to get the borrowing powers that he is give evidence to, I believe, a House of Lords Committee demanding, as well as the ability to reduce corporation looking at the Barnett formula. He said that there was tax, how will increasing borrowing fit with her Government’s no case for reviewing it because it had served well. The preoccupation with reducing the deficit at all costs? fact that the last Government repeatedly ruled out Furthermore, is not her Conservative-led Government reforming the Barnett formula means that any reforms playing into the hands of separatists by promoting must be looked at carefully. He is quite right that giving separate economies? tax-raising powers would involve another referendum, which is something that this Government would look at Mrs Gillan: I would never play into the hands of carefully, because I am not sure whether Wales has an separatists; I am a devoted Unionist, as I hope the right appetite at the moment for another referendum. hon. Gentleman is. Before the Assembly elections, he and his party consistently boasted that they would win Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) a majority in Wales, and I consider failing to do so a (PC): The Calman process in Scotland had a wider significant failure for him and his leader. On the question remit than merely to consider funding arrangements. of separatism, however, he will know that my door is Given the Labour party’s opposition to decoupling always open, and I would hope that we could join in Westminster and National Assembly constituency common cause on this matter. He and I, and his party, boundaries, would it not make sense to base the make-up support the United Kingdom and I want to ensure that of the fifth National Assembly on 30 regional and all steps taken by the Wales Office will reinforce the 30 constituency Assembly Members? United Kingdom. I see him nodding, and I am grateful for his acknowledgement that he would join me in that Mrs Gillan: That is a very interesting thought. Hon. cause. I am sure that we can work well together on that. Members are well aware that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 broke the link Departmental Efficiency Savings between Assembly constituencies and parliamentary constituencies. I have agreed that we need to look 3. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What carefully at the implications of having constituency mechanisms her Department has used to identify boundaries relating to different areas and regions for efficiency savings since May 2010. [54354] UK and Assembly elections in Wales. I am taking the hon. Gentleman’s question as a recommendation that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales we have 30 first-past-the-post seats and 30 elected on a (Mr David Jones): Since taking office, we have explored list system, and I will look seriously at that suggestion. a number of ways to find efficiency savings and we have achieved significant savings, particularly on rail travel Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Does the Secretary of and hotel accommodation.
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