Wednesday Volume 527 11 May 2011 No. 155

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 11 May 2011

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12. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): House of Commons What progress has been made on the Government’s commitment to undertake a process similar to the Wednesday 11 May 2011 Calman commission on devolution funding; and if she will make a statement. [54363] The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Following the yes vote in the referendum on further PRAYERS powers, we have started to consider the scope and form of such a process. Now that the elections to the National [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Assembly have taken place I intend to discuss the process with other stakeholders and the First Minister. May I also take this opportunity while I am at the Dispatch Box to offer our congratulations to Carwyn Oral Answers to Questions Jones, who is currently considering forming the Welsh Assembly Government and has the largest party in the Welsh Assembly? WALES Mary Macleod: Our priority in Wales and elsewhere The Secretary of State was asked— right now is to ensure that the deficit is under control. However, now that Ministers in the Welsh Assembly Council Tax Benefit have more power, is it not right that they should be financially accountable for those powers as well? 1. Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Mrs Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Work and Pensions and the Welsh Assembly There is indeed a body of thought that believes that Government on proposals to transfer responsibility for with the power to spend public money should come council tax benefit to local authorities. [54352] accountability, and this is certainly a matter that we will be looking at. However, this is not something that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales should be entered into in haste, and I intend to engage (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary fully with the Welsh Assembly Government on the of State and I have had discussions with Cabinet colleagues matter. and Welsh Assembly Government Ministers on a range of issues, including welfare reform. Stephen Mosley: The national border between north-east Jenny Willott: As the Minister may know, there is a Wales and Chester is almost unique in that it passes great deal of concern that people in Wales will struggle through an urban area, with large numbers of people to get council tax benefit if the Welsh Assembly refuses travelling in both directions every day for health care, to devolve the benefit to local authorities in Wales, as education and employment. Will my right hon. Friend the Government are doing in England. Will he work ensure that the remit of the review specifically includes with the Welsh Assembly Government and the Department looking at the impact of devolution on such cross-border for Work and Pensions to ensure that council tax benefit services? is devolved to either all local authorities across the UK or none? Mrs Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend that question too, because he knows that we in the Wales Office have Mr Jones: Localisation of council tax benefit is part been concerned about cross-border issues and their of the wider package of reform set out in the Welfare impact on health in particular. I cannot guarantee that Reform Bill, which will ensure that work always pays. that will fall within the scope of the Calman-like process, We are indeed committed to full consultation with the but I assure him that I will take into consideration any Welsh Assembly Government on the devolved implications representations that he or any other Member wishes to of the reforms. The Assembly Government will no make to the Wales Office. doubt wish to consult when they have developed their own policy options, but ultimately it is for them to Andrew Selous: Does my right hon. Friend agree that decide how the delivery arrangements are put in place reforming the thoroughly discredited Barnett formula in Wales. to take a fair and transparent needs-based approach for Devolution Funding the whole of the United Kingdom would help Wales and England? 2. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): What progress has been made on the Government’s Mrs Gillan: The Government’s commitment to a commitment to undertake a process similar to the wider review of the Barnett formula is clear, but stabilisation Calman commission on devolution funding; and if she of the public finances comes first. I think we all recognise will make a statement. [54353] that the Barnett formula is coming to the end of its life, but we will consider a change to the system only once 4. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What we have put the public finances in order. There was a progress has been made on the Government’s good reason why the predecessor Government to this commitment to undertake a process similar to the one made no changes to the Barnett formula in 13 years. Calman commission on devolution funding; and if she It is not something that can be achieved in haste, only to will make a statement. [54355] be regretted at leisure. 1147 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1148

Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): May I ask the Secretary Mr Speaker: Order. I just remind the House that we of State to take great care when she deals with these are on the subject of devolution funding. issues? As she knows, there is really no appetite in Wales for tax-varying or tax-raising powers—the resource base Mr Hain: I know that the hon. Members for Cardiff is not there—and even if there were, we would have to North (Jonathan Evans) and for Vale of Glamorgan have a referendum in Wales for such powers, as happened (Alun Cairns) will disagree with the Secretary of State in Scotland. on that, because Labour won the Assembly seats in their constituencies with thumping majorities. If, as the Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, Chief Secretary to the Treasury suggested yesterday, because I always remember sitting and listening to him Alex Salmond is to get the borrowing powers that he is give evidence to, I believe, a House of Lords Committee demanding, as well as the ability to reduce corporation looking at the Barnett formula. He said that there was tax, how will increasing borrowing fit with her Government’s no case for reviewing it because it had served well. The preoccupation with reducing the deficit at all costs? fact that the last Government repeatedly ruled out Furthermore, is not her Conservative-led Government reforming the Barnett formula means that any reforms playing into the hands of separatists by promoting must be looked at carefully. He is quite right that giving separate economies? tax-raising powers would involve another referendum, which is something that this Government would look at Mrs Gillan: I would never play into the hands of carefully, because I am not sure whether Wales has an separatists; I am a devoted Unionist, as I hope the right appetite at the moment for another referendum. hon. Gentleman is. Before the Assembly elections, he and his party consistently boasted that they would win Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) a majority in Wales, and I consider failing to do so a (PC): The Calman process in Scotland had a wider significant failure for him and his leader. On the question remit than merely to consider funding arrangements. of separatism, however, he will know that my door is Given the Labour party’s opposition to decoupling always open, and I would hope that we could join in Westminster and National Assembly constituency common cause on this matter. He and I, and his party, boundaries, would it not make sense to base the make-up support the United Kingdom and I want to ensure that of the fifth National Assembly on 30 regional and all steps taken by the Wales Office will reinforce the 30 constituency Assembly Members? United Kingdom. I see him nodding, and I am grateful for his acknowledgement that he would join me in that Mrs Gillan: That is a very interesting thought. Hon. cause. I am sure that we can work well together on that. Members are well aware that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 broke the link Departmental Efficiency Savings between Assembly constituencies and parliamentary constituencies. I have agreed that we need to look 3. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What carefully at the implications of having constituency mechanisms her Department has used to identify boundaries relating to different areas and regions for efficiency savings since May 2010. [54354] UK and Assembly elections in Wales. I am taking the hon. Gentleman’s question as a recommendation that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales we have 30 first-past-the-post seats and 30 elected on a (Mr David Jones): Since taking office, we have explored list system, and I will look seriously at that suggestion. a number of ways to find efficiency savings and we have achieved significant savings, particularly on rail travel Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Does the Secretary of and hotel accommodation. State think that the Calman process will be as beneficial for the Tories in Wales as it was in Scotland last Thursday? Mr Hollobone: Is it the Minister’s intention that the Will she also congratulate Carwyn Jones on polling Wales Office should be the most efficient Department Labour’s highest ever Welsh Assembly vote, which included in Whitehall? If so, how confident is he that that can be taking Cardiff North—about the safest Conservative achieved? seat in Wales—and beating the Liberal Democrats in Cardiff Central and Plaid Cymru in Llanelli? Will she Mr Jones: We are certainly moving in that direction. ensure that if any financial concessions or flexibilities Since taking office, we have introduced a rule that no are offered to Scotland by her Government, as is now Minister or official should travel first class. That has being suggested, Wales will receive equivalent benefits saved us nearly £92,000 and more than halved our rail to compensate for the horrendous cuts that the Government costs this year. We have achieved 36% savings under a are imposing on Welsh citizens? new Government contract for booking hotel accommodation, and we have halved the number of Mrs Gillan: The right hon. Gentleman is on dangerous ministerial cars. From this month, we will no longer ground here. I do not want to engage in any sort of have the Jaguar in Wales that the Secretary of State’s triumphalism or tribalism, to use the words of Carwyn predecessor ordered. Jones. The right hon. Gentleman will note that I came to the Dispatch Box to congratulate Carwyn, because I have worked well with him over the past 12 months. Big Society Initiatives May I just remind him that the Conservative vote went up to 25% in Wales and the number of our seats went 5. Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): What up to 14? We are now the second largest party in the recent discussions she has had with ministerial Assembly, and the right hon. Gentleman had better colleagues and the Welsh Assembly Government on big think again before he starts taking us on. society initiatives in Wales. [54356] 1149 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1150

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Mrs Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend for his kind (Mr David Jones): I have discussed a range of issues remarks. I know that he has a great deal of expertise in concerning the big society in Wales with the Minister this area. An independent estimate in 2009 projected for civil society, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, that superfast broadband in the UK could create up to Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd) and the Welsh Assembly 600,000 jobs and add £18 billion to GDP. We are Government Minister for social justice. I am due to working closely with the Department for Culture, Media have a further discussion concerning the big society and Sport and the Welsh Assembly Government to bank with my hon. Friend next week. ensure that Wales benefits fully. Based on the population share, we estimate up to 30,000 new jobs being created Jonathan Evans: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for and a possible £900 million of additional wealth being that response. Will he share with us his anticipation of generated in Wales. when the big society bank will be up and running in Wales? Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): I am sure the Secretary of State will join me in congratulating Virgin Media on rolling out in Swansea this week the Mr Jones: We are certainly moving in that direction. fastest broadband speeds in the UK. It is not just a My hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for rural problem. We have heard about the economic case. civil society announced this week that the big society How quickly can we roll out these speeds to other parts bank is being established; £200 million of moneys in the Principality? that bank will be available on a wholesale basis for charities in Wales. Mrs Gillan: I was particularly pleased that we were able to announce on 10 February £10 million of funding Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Many women to support the extension of superfast broadband to in Wales who are approaching state pension age are Pwllheli. I know from working with colleagues in the presumably part of the Government’s big society in that DCMS and the Welsh Assembly Government that more they have reduced their hours to undertake caring announcements on this front will be made later this responsibility for elderly parents and grandchildren. year. The hon. Lady is quite right on this issue, and I am They now find themselves having to work up to two particularly keen because broadband take-up in Wales years longer with little time to prepare. Does the Minister is at 64% in comparison with 71% in the rest of the UK. understand how betrayed these women feel by this Broadband take-up in rural Wales, however, is in excess dereliction of public duty? of that in urban Wales, so I am very pleased to welcome Virgin Media’s announcement. Mr Jones: I am sure that the hon. Lady will also recognise that the economic legacy we inherited from Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Secretary Labour means that it is absolutely necessary that everybody of State will be aware not only that rural areas have should play their part in contributing to economic slower and less reliable broadband, but that our constituents recovery. That means, sadly, that there will have to be an in those areas have to pay a lot more for it. Ofcom is extension of the retirement age. I hope that she will currently investigating lowering the price that BT can explain that to her constituents. charge internet service providers for wholesale broadband because it feels that prices are too high in rural areas. Broadband Infrastructure Will she make representations to Ofcom on behalf of people in rural areas to ensure that they, as well those in urban areas, secure a fair deal? 6. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and Mrs Gillan: I had some difficulty in hearing the whole the Welsh Assembly Government on improving of the hon. Gentleman’s question, but I should be broadband infrastructure in rural Wales. [54357] happy to meet him to discuss the problems of rural broadband. He has always been a well-known champion The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): of rural areas, and I am sure that if anyone can help me I have discussed improving broadband infrastructure to make a case for bringing down costs in those areas, it across Wales with ministerial colleagues and Welsh will be him. Assembly Government Ministers. Indeed, I arranged and hosted a meeting between the broadband Minister Mr Speaker: Order. I remind the Secretary of State and the former Deputy First Minister to discuss joint that she must face the Chair. However, she was not working. alone in her difficulty. Far too many noisy private conversations are taking place in the Chamber in which David Rutley: I would like to congratulate my right I have no interest whatsoever. I must tell the hon. hon. Friend on the important work she is doing in this Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) that I want to vital area. Many studies, including those by the hear Mr Hywel Williams. Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the OECD and the World Bank, have highlighted how broadband Health and Social Care Bill immeasurably enhances economic growth. In my own local authority of Cheshire East, faster broadband is a 7. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): What discussions key element in the economic development of rural she has had with ministerial colleagues and the Welsh communities. Will my right hon. Friend tell the House Assembly Government on cross-border implications of what assessment has been made of the economic benefit the provisions of the Health and Social Care Bill. of enhanced broadband access in rural Wales? [54358] 1151 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1152

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Robert Halfon: Does my right hon. Friend agree that (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary the project will be good for jobs, not just in Wales but of State and I have discussed the Health and Social throughout the United Kingdom? Will she make contracts Care Bill with ministerial colleagues and with Welsh available to the many first-class English construction Assembly Ministers. and engineering firms, such as those in Harlow, many of which are small businesses? Hywel Williams: We do not impose competition on the health service in Wales. What steps is the Minister Mrs Gillan: I was very pleased when we were able to taking to ensure that patients in north Wales are protected announce the electrification, which will indeed help to from the potential chaos caused by competition in the provide jobs not only in Wales but in other parts of the health service in England? United Kingdom. I hope that there will be many opportunities for businesses in my hon. Friend’s Mr Jones: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the problem constituency, as well as throughout Wales, to be involved has existed for some time. I remember sharing a platform in the process. Certainly the Wales Office will do all that with him to discuss the issue of the Walton centre. it can to facilitate that. Decisions affecting the NHS in Wales are rightly a matter for the Welsh Assembly, but this Government Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Good transport are committed to working with Ministers in Cardiff and links are vital to economic success. Will the Secretary of Whitehall when health care provision for Welsh patients State undertake to deliver electrification of all the valley is under discussion. lines, including the line between Ebbw Vale and Cardiff?

Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Many Mrs Gillan: As the hon. Gentleman will know, we of my constituents depend on services commissioned identified electrification of the valley lines as a key from Hereford hospital for the meeting of their medical priority as part of the development of the business case needs. Will the Minister meet me, and a representative for electrification. As he will also know, I have said that of the Department of Health, to establish how that I stand ready to work with the new Welsh Assembly commissioning will proceed in future? Government and the Department for Transport to facilitate the electrification of those lines. I shall certainly examine Mr Jones: I think that that would be premature at the case for electrification of the Ebbw Vale line, which this stage, but I am pleased about the decision to refresh he has made to me before. the existing cross-border health services protocol for a further year, until 31 March 2012. Tourism Promotion Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): The Minister will be aware that one of the other destabilising effects of the 9. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Health and Social Care Bill is the abolition of the What recent representations she has received from National Patient Safety Agency, whose job was to monitor tourism operators in Wales on Government financing patient safety in England and Wales. In England its job for tourism promotion. [54360] will be taken over by the national commissioning board, but what provision has been made for transferring its The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales responsibilities in Wales to ensure patient safety? If the (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary job is given to the National Assembly, will extra funds of State and I have met representatives of the Welsh be made available for the purpose? Tourism Alliance and North Wales Tourism to discuss a range of issues affecting the tourism industry, and we Mr Jones: As the hon. Gentleman will know, the have both visited a number of tourism-related businesses existing cross-border protocol is supported by an annual across Wales in the last year. transfer of funds—currently £5.9 million—to the Assembly Government, and an additional payment of some Mr Llwyd: As the Minister will know, the tourism £12 million was made in the last two financial years. sector in Wales is extremely important for the economy These matters will have to be discussed with Welsh of Wales. He will also know that a large part of the Ministers once the new Assembly Government has been sector comprises small and medium-sized enterprises—such established. firms employ about 90% of the people of Wales. What initiatives is he pursuing to expand this all-important Great Western Main Line sector?

8. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What estimate she Mr Jones: The right hon. Gentleman is entirely right. has made of the number of jobs to be created in Wales The Welsh tourism industry is worth some £3.5 billion as a result of electrification of the Great Western main to the Welsh economy. Responsibility for promoting line to Cardiff. [54359] tourism in Wales resides with the Welsh Assembly Government, of course, but VisitBritain has established The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): a new £100 million overseas tourism marketing fund, The electrification of the Great Western main line will with £50 million being provided by the Department for create thousands of job opportunities in the UK Culture, Media and Sport. That marketing programme manufacturing and service supply chains, and Welsh is due to launch to consumers this month and aims to companies will be well placed to take advantage of deliver an extra 4 million visitors to the UK, many of those opportunities. whom will, of course, visit Wales. 1153 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1154

Mr Llwyd: I thank the Minister for that reply, but Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Given that an enormous may I press him on one point? He and the Secretary of amount of time and money has been put into studying State were lobbied on the need for a cut in value added tidal energy in the Severn estuary, what efforts is the tax on tourism services so that we can compete fairly Secretary of State making to take forward the plans for with our friends in Ireland and France, for example. that and ensure they do not get lost? Please will they engage with the Treasury on this matter? Mrs Gillan: The hon. Lady knows that throughout Mr Jones: The position with regard to value added the years when I have been both shadow Secretary of tax was set out amply in the Budget. State and now Secretary of State for Wales, I have been very supportive of all the work that has been done, Nuclear Industry particularly on tidal lagoons, as well as in examining the case for the Severn barrage, which has, of course, been 10. Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): What recent put to one side for the time being. I can assure her, assessment she has made of the future of the nuclear businesses in her constituency and our research institutes industry in Wales. [54361] that we will always consider that option for future generation in and around the Welsh coast. 11. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What recent assessment she has made of the future of the nuclear Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): In addition to the industry in Wales. [54362] fear of a Welsh Fukushima, the cost of new nuclear is such that the only new nuclear power station in the 13. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): What world is already three years late and £2 billion over recent assessment she has made of the future of the budget. Why does the Secretary of State not concentrate nuclear industry in Wales. [54364] on the immense power of the tides in Wales, including the second highest rise and fall of tide in the world, and The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): give us energy that is clean, safe and eternal? Nuclear energy is an important component of our future energy security and carbon reduction plans. It Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman has been consistent, will therefore continue to have a future in the UK’s but he has asked questions on this matter of the Minister energy policy, and I hope that a new build at Wylfa will with responsibility for energy, my hon. Friend the Member play a key role in creating new jobs in Wales. for Wealden (Charles Hendry), and of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and he knows very well that Steve Baker: Will my right hon. Friend join me in the Government’s view is that tidal energy has a part to lamenting the record of the Labour party, which failed play in our energy programmes of the future, but so, to promote the latest generation of nuclear technologies too, has nuclear. and thereby put our energy security at risk?

Mrs Gillan: As my hon. Friend knows, this Government PRIME MINISTER have said that nuclear could be part of the future energy mix, and he will know personally of my attitude towards The Prime Minister was asked— Wylfa continuing as a nuclear power station, with new Engagements generation at the site. Q1. [54956] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): If Graham Evans: Does the Secretary of State agree that he will list his official engagements for Wednesday new power plants in Wales are good news for energy 11 May. security, industry and job creation? The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure Mrs Gillan: That is an easy question for me to answer. that everyone across the House of Commons will want I welcome the work that has been done to enable Wylfa to join me in paying tribute to David Cairns, the Member to continue generating low-carbon electricity for a further of Parliament for Inverclyde, who, very sadly, died on two years, and I am delighted that the site has been Monday, aged just 44. I will always remember him as chosen as a future new site for generation. [Interruption.] someone who was very quick-witted and sharply intelligent, and as someone who was an extremely kind and Mr Speaker: Order. Let us have a bit of hush in the compassionate man. Not many people can claim to Chamber for the Chairman of the Select Committee on have come to this House only because legislation was Welsh Affairs, Mr David T. C. Davies. passed to allow them to come here, but as a former Catholic priest that had to happen in his case, and the David T. C. Davies: In light of the comments of the House was better off for that happening. I am sure that Committee on Climate Change, which has said that everyone will join me in sending our deepest condolences nuclear represents the most cost-effective way of delivering to his partner, his family and his many friends, and I carbon-free electricity, will the Secretary of State support know that his constituents, like many others, will miss the plant in Anglesey as a means of protecting future his tireless work very much indeed. generations of homo sapiens? This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others and, in addition to my duties in this House, I Mrs Gillan: Once again, this is a very easy question to shall have further such meetings later today. answer, but I nevertheless thank my hon. Friend for asking it. There is now a growing consensus of opinion Mr Hollobone: May I associate myself with the Prime right across the board in Wales that Wylfa in Anglesey Minister’s remarks? David Cairns was a great would be an excellent site for future nuclear generation. parliamentarian and a good friend. 1155 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1156

On 10 February, this House voted overwhelmingly, The Prime Minister: The Leader of the Opposition by a majority of 10:1, to continue the ban on giving himself has said that no change is not an option. We are prisoners the vote, since which time the European Court seeing the usual empty opposition. I am glad that he of Human Rights has effectively ignored the will of this mentioned waiting times, because, two weeks ago, at House. It still insists that the law be changed and has that Dispatch Box, he said that waiting times given the Government until October to bring forward “have risen month on month under this Government”.—[Official proposals. Will Her Majesty’s Government bend their Report, 27 April 2011; Vol. 527, c. 169.] knee to the European Court or will they stand up and That is not true. The figures, which he had at the time, insist that on this issue Britain will not budge? show that in-patient waiting times fell from 9.1 to 9 weeks. For out-patients, they went down from 4.8 weeks The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely to 3.5 weeks, the lowest for a year. It is important when clear that the House of Commons has given a very clear we come to this House and make statements that are view that prisoners should not have the vote and my inaccurate that we correct the record at the first available own view is that prisoners should not have the vote. I opportunity. think that we should do two things. First, we should be trying to reform the European Court, as we are doing; Edward Miliband rose— my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary is leading this charge to make sure that it does pay more The Prime Minister: Hold on. Would he like to take attention to national judgments and national Parliaments. this opportunity to correct that specific mistake? But at the same time we will have to consider our response to this issue, and I want it to be as close as Edward Miliband: No, waiting times are rising. I possible to the clearly expressed will of the House of notice that the Prime Minister did not even take the Commons. opportunity to take responsibility for the health policy. Where is the Health Secretary, after all? Where is he? It Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I want to is becoming a pattern with this Prime Ministers. This start by paying tribute to our much-loved colleague morning, in the papers, we saw the Universities Minister David Cairns. His death is a tragedy at such a young being dumped on for his tuition fees policy; we see the age, and we send our deepest condolences to his partner, Schools Secretary being dumped on for his free schools Dermot, and to the whole of his family. He was what policy; and the poor Deputy Prime Minister just gets any Member of Parliament would aspire to be in this dumped on every day of the week. The Prime Minister House: he was warm, principled and independent-minded, must believe that something has gone wrong with his even if that was not always comfortable for the leadership health policy, because he has launched his so-called of our party. He fought for the causes that he believed listening exercise. Can he reassure doctors, nurses and in, he was Labour through and through, he will be patients that it is a genuine exercise? missed throughout the labour movement, and I know that he will be missed throughout this House as well. The Prime Minister: Of course it is a genuine exercise. Let me be clear: the right hon. Gentleman is wrong on A year into his Government, how would the Prime the waiting times. The figures are clear and I shall place Minister rate his handling of the NHS? them in the Library of the House of Commons. Waiting times went down last month and he ought to have the The Prime Minister: I think that the most important guts and the courage to correct the record when he gets thing we have done is increase spending on the NHS, it wrong. He asks about my Health Secretary, and which is something that has happened only because of perhaps I can remind him of what his health spokesman the commitment we made at the last election. So an has said. He said it this week. He said the general aims extra £11.6 billion will be going into the NHS because of the reform are sound. That is what he said. He said of the decisions we have taken. In addition, there is a earlier, “I have no problem with the broad aim of the £200 million cancer drugs fund, so that people get the changes,” and went on to praise them. When I look at drugs they need and, for the first time in a long time, this, it all reminds me of Labour 30 years ago. They had the number of doctors is growing very quickly and the a leader with the ratings of Michael Foot and he was number of bureaucrats is actually falling. being undermined by someone called Healey, as well. Edward Miliband: We read in the papers about a Edward Miliband: In case the Prime Minister did not PMQs makeover, but I have to say that it did not last realise, it takes seven years to train a doctor, so I would very long. Flashman is back. Of course, the thing is that like to thank him for his congratulations on our record Flashman does not answer the questions, so let me ask on the NHS. I have to say to him, if it is all going so the right hon. Gentleman again. Can he explain why the well, why have we seen the number of people waiting for chief executive of the NHS, Sir David Nicholson, wrote diagnosis rising again this morning? More than to NHS staff on 13 April, after the Prime Minister’s 10,000 people are waiting to get their tests, three times so-called pause had begun, and said that they should the number it was a year ago. I also noticed that he did “press on with implementation” of the plans? That does not mention his top-down reorganisation when he talked not sound like a pause to me. about his handling of the NHS. Let me remind him of what he said just a month ago. He said: The Prime Minister: I can absolutely guarantee that “I’ve been involved in designing these changes way back into there will be significant and substantial changes to the opposition with Andrew Lansley”. reforms because we want to get them right and because Will he therefore confirm that the failing NHS plans are we want to guarantee an NHS that is free at the point of not the Health Secretary’s fault, but his? use and available based on need rather than the ability 1157 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1158 to pay. Unlike the Labour party, which is now cutting Hon. Members: More, more! the NHS in Wales, this Government will put more money into the NHS. Mr Speaker: Order. There is far too much shouting in The right hon. Gentleman talks about what is in the the Chamber and the Secretary of State for Education newspapers today, but he ought to be looking at the GPs should not be shouting his head off—it is a very bad representing 7 million patients who wrote to the papers example to set to the nation’s schoolchildren. today to say that this is evolution, not revolution, that it is good for patients, and that it will help some of the Q2. [54957] Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I “most vulnerable” people in our community. I have to have a slightly calmer question, Mr Speaker. I am sure accept that some of the recent cultural references—Michael that the Prime Minister is aware that the fatal and Winner, Benny Hill—are all a little out of date, but I incurable human brain disease variant Creutzfeldt- must say that when I look at the right hon. Gentleman, Jakob disease is transferred through prions, blood who told us that the fight back would start in Scotland products and surgical instruments. Recently, Professor before going down to a massive defeat, he rather reminds Collinge and others at the Medical Research Council me of Eddie the Eagle. prion unit have produced an effective prion- deactivation instrument soak and a blood test for Edward Miliband: Let me congratulate the Prime variant CJD, both of which could and should protect Minister on getting 42 GPs to write to The Daily the public. Unfortunately, there has been a small Telegraph supporting his plans. The Royal College of financial hiccup in progressing those breakthroughs. General Practitioners represents 42,000 GPs and it says—the Does the Prime Minister accept the importance of Prime Minister said that he would protect the NHS, so I preventing this despicable disease, particularly for would have thought he would be embarrassed by this—that future generations, and will he meet me and Professor his plans will cause “irreparable damage” to the core Collinge to discuss potential progress? values of the NHS. I do not know whether he even knows about the letter that David Nicholson sent, but The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises an important the truth is that the Prime Minister’s pause is nothing point about a very dangerous disease and I would more than a sham. certainly be happy to arrange a meeting, probably between him and Professor Sally Davies, the chief medical officer, The Prime Minister: Why does not the right hon. to discuss this. He will know that there have been Gentleman for once in his life actually deal with the various research studies into the impact of variant CJD substance of the reform? The truth of the matter is that on the population. We do not yet have all the answers he has said, quite rightly, that no change is not an that we need. Since 1990, there has been funding of the option. We believe that no change is not an option and national CJD research and surveillance unit to the tune that is what the overwhelming amount of people in the of £18 million, and through the Medical Research NHS feel. Let us look at the elements of the reform: GP Council we have committed to providing £32 million to fundholding started under Labour and is now being the national prion unit between 2010 and 2014. That improved under this coalition; foundation hospitals should be the money that gets the answers that he so started under Labour and are now being taken forward badly wants. by this coalition; payment by results—so that we make sure that we get good value for money in the NHS—started Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The under Labour and is now being carried forward under Protection from Harassment Act 1997 has served its this coalition. That is the point. He should be seriously purpose well over the years, but recently there has been engaging in how we make sure we have a strong NHS a huge increase in incidents of cyber-stalking, sometimes for all our people for the future. Instead, we have empty with devastating consequences. Will the Prime Minister, opposition, which got him absolutely nowhere last week. in due course, meet me and a small delegation of Members from across the House who are concerned Edward Miliband: In a phrase that the Prime Minister about the issue? is familiar with, “Calm down, dear.” Calm down. Does not his mess on the NHS tell us all we need to know The Prime Minister: I am happy to hold that meeting about this Prime Minister? He breaks his promises, he with the right hon. Gentleman. We are trying to make does not think things through and when the going gets sure that right across the board we take cybercrime tough, he dumps on his colleagues. On a day when seriously because there is a huge growth in it. Often it is waiting lists are rising, this confirms what we always about trying to take people’s money or about espionage, knew about the Tories—you cannot trust the Tories on but the point that he makes about harassment is also the NHS. important. We need to make sure that the strategy dealing with cyber takes full account of what he says. The Prime Minister: What we have seen is just the product of empty opposition and weak leadership. It is Q3. [54958] Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The Labour this Government who are putting more money into the Government took Britain to the brink of bankruptcy. NHS; it is this Government who are putting money into The gap between rich and poor widened, and nearly the cancer drugs fund; it is this Government who are 4 million children were left living below the poverty seeing the number of doctors and nurses grow while the line. Last month, the coalition Government cut income number of bureaucrats shrinks. It is this party that is tax, liberally helping millions of people, but I have to defending the NHS and it is Labour in Wales that is ask the Prime Minister this: if we are all in this cutting the NHS. That is the truth. There is only one together, what is he going to do about the obscenity of party you can trust on the NHS and it is the one that I 1,000 multimillionaires boosting their personal wealth lead. by 18% in the past year? 1159 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1160

The Prime Minister: One of the things we absolutely Q5. [54960] Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) will do—and we have put in the money to make sure it (Con): Conservative-controlled Shropshire council has happens—is crack down on the tax evasion that takes managed to make savings of £30 million while place so widely in our country. The Treasury has put protecting front-line services. That has been achieved money into that campaign to make sure it happens. The partly by a reduction in salaries for councillors and hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Because of our senior managers. Will the Prime Minister join me in coalition Government, we have lifted 1 million people congratulating Shropshire council on this achievement, out of income tax and, at the same time over the past and is it not a shining example for other councils up year, we see exports up, private sector jobs up, the and down the country to follow? economy growing and borrowing down—all radically different from what would have happened if we had The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very listened to the recipe from the Labour party. good point, which is that up and down the country councils have been able to reduce back-office costs, Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) bureaucracy and the pay of chief executives and crack (Lab): On the subject of empty opposition, the Prime down on council allowances and all those things in Minister castigated his predecessor for not proscribing order to protect front-line services. It has happened in the radical Islamist organisation, Hizb ut-Tahrir, when Shropshire and many other parts of the country and it the previous Prime Minister had been in post for a is an example that should be followed. week. The right hon. Gentleman has now been in post for a year. I would like to give him the opportunity to Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): The castigate himself. Prime Minister told me that the hacking inquiry should The Prime Minister: It is very kind of the right hon. go where the evidence leads. It leads to the parents of Gentleman to give me that opportunity. We are clear the Soham children and to rogue intelligence officers. that we must target groups that promote extremism, not He knows of more sinister forms of cybercrime. Lord just violent extremism. We have proscribed one or two Fowler is calling for a judicial inquiry. Will the Prime groups. I would like to see action taken against Hizb Minister please order one now, before the avalanche of ut-Tahrir, and that review is under way. new evidence forces him to do so?

Q4. [54959] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What The Prime Minister: I think there is a real problem estimate has my right hon. Friend made of the with interfering, which that would effectively do, with comments this week by the director general of the CBI the criminal investigations that are taking place. The on the Government’s deficit reduction plan? most important thing is to allow the criminal investigation to take place and, as I have said to the hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: In its history the CBI has not before, make sure that the police and the prosecuting always supported action to tackle deficits and to get on authorities can follow the evidence wherever it leads. top of bad public finances, but on this occasion it is That is the most important thing that needs to happen. four-square behind the action that the Government have taken. When asked what would have happened if Q6. [54961] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Does my we had followed the ideas of the Labour party, the CBI right hon. Friend agree that the story of Robin Hood said: has parallels with a Government who are taxing “The economy would be weaker because of the impact of a bankers to build the big society, City fat cats to fund loss of confidence in the markets. tax cuts for lower earners and oil barons to cut fuel If we did not have a clear programme to reduce the deficit over prices? Will he invite disaffected Opposition Members this parliament we would have seen a significant rise in our interest rates, and growth would have been eroded rather more to join a Government who help the poor and take away than it has been”. from the rich? That is the view of the CBI—the experts at the heart of British industry, who say that one cannot trust Labour The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good with the economy. point. It was this Government who introduced a bank levy and used the money to help some of the poorest in Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Last week we our country. It is this Government who have taxed the had an excellent result in Wales for the Labour party. oil companies at a time when the oil price is so high in Given the Prime Minister’s general election manifesto order to cut petrol duties and help millions of people in commitment, and the commitment of the Liberal our country. What a contrast with the Labour party; the Democrats, what progress has he made so far on reforming action it took against the banks was to give Fred the Barnett formula as it applies to Wales? Goodwin a knighthood.

The Prime Minister: We will look closely at a Calman-like Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): The Prime Minister approach for Wales. If those results are the hon. Gentleman’s knows about the real pressures faced by London’s definition of success, I suppose he will be a happy man. emergency services, including those they will face in the He should spend a little time studying what his colleague, run-up to the Olympics next year. What risk assessment the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris), said has he made of the London ambulance service’s decision about Labour’s performance in Scotland: to cut 20% of its work force, including 560 front-line “Labour deserved to lose. We insulted the intelligence of our NHS staff? voters by peddling a myth”. That is what happened. I know the hon. Member for The Prime Minister: I have discussed with London’s Caerphilly (Mr David) does not want to hear about emergency services some of the challenges they face, Scotland, but he ought to think about it. not least the Olympics and the terrorist threat. All 1161 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1162 organisations in this country are having to make savings The Prime Minister: Of course I can confirm that, and efficiencies and try to concentrate on the front line. but I believe that everyone in this House who believes in That is what is happening in the police and elsewhere. the United Kingdom and the future of the United The point about ambulance services and the NHS is Kingdom should join together and make sure that we that we are protecting spending on the NHS. There was, fight off the threat of the idea of breaking up our frankly, only one party that proposed that at the last United Kingdom. I do not believe that we will achieve election. If we had not proposed that, it would not be that by threats, or by saying that small countries cannot happening. We listened to the Labour party, including make it; I believe that the way we will make that the former health spokesman, the right hon. Member argument is by saying that being part of the United for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), Kingdom is good for Scotland, and that Scotland being who spoke earlier, and they were going to cut the NHS. part of the United Kingdom is good for the rest of the That would have affected the London ambulance service United Kingdom. I want us to make an uplifting and like everything else. optimistic case for why we are better off together. That is what all of us who support our Union should do, and Q7. [54962] Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Does I for one will certainly play my part. the Prime Minister share the shadow Chancellor’s view that the Government should adopt the Obama Q10. [54965] Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): Administration’s pace of deficit reduction? Now that the referendum is out the way—incidentally, nobody asked for it and nobody wanted it, except for The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very the Liberals, or Bob, Rag and Ragtail here— good point. For months the Opposition have been [Interruption.] I did not want it—[Interruption.] I did telling us that we should follow the American approach. not want it. Yet, Prime Minister, a survey done a few It now emerges that the Obama deficit reduction programme weeks ago said that 70% of the British people wanted a will go exactly as fast, as quick and as deep as the referendum on Europe. It is in the Liberal manifesto, proposals in the UK, so one of the planks of the good although that does not mean much, and more than half ship Balls has been completely holed below the waterline. your Back Benchers want a referendum as well. When are the people going to get the referendum on Europe? Q8. [54963] Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): May I associate myself with the Prime Minister’s tribute to The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman says that David Cairns? David served with distinction as a the referendum on the alternative vote was something Minister in Northern Ireland during the period of nobody wanted, but I have to remind him that it was in direct rule, and many people there have great respect his manifesto. I know that it was a pretty turgid document, for the work he did in Northern Ireland. and he might want to have a word with the author The UK’s contribution to the bail-out for eurozone about how to improve things next time, but I would countries that find themselves in financial difficulties recommend reading the manifesto before you stand for amounts to half the savings made in the deficit reduction the party. plan in the UK this year, a fact that will stagger and appal many people in this country. Can the Prime Q15. [54970] Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton Minister give an assurance that the UK will make no North) (Con): Given the high demand from the public further contributions to the bail-out of those countries to attend the consultation events on the future of that have got into financial difficulties— children’s cardiac services in Southampton, will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister join me in calling Mr Speaker: Order. I think we have the thrust of it for additional events so that the maximum number of and are grateful. people in the wider Southampton area can participate?

The Prime Minister: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: I certainly agree with my hon. on his re-election last week to the Northern Irish Assembly. Friend, and in the review of child cardiac services—this The point that I would make is this: the only money that affects my constituency as well as hers, and people are Britain has lent directly is to the Republic of Ireland, talking about how Southampton and Oxford should and I think it is actually in our national interest and, I work together—I think that there should be as many would say, in the interests of Northern Ireland that we events as people want to go to, as much transparency as do not see a collapse in the economy in the Republic. possible and, if specialisation is necessary, as much That was a difficult decision but the right decision to explanation as possible about why it is necessary and make. why it is good for patients. In the end that must be the The other contingent liabilities on Britain flow through test of everything we do in the NHS. the finance mechanism in Europe, which we did not support the establishment of and have negotiated to get Q11. [54966] Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) rid of when the new arrangements come in in 2013, and (Lab): We know what a number of the right hon. we will do everything that we can to safeguard Britain’s Gentleman’s Ministers think about the adoption of the finances. fourth budget proposed by the Committee on Climate Change, but what does he think about it? Will he press Q9. [54964] Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): for the adoption of that budget when the Cabinet Can the Prime Minister confirm that, if any part of the meets to discuss it, as we are reliably informed it will? United Kingdom decided to leave the Union, although part of the national debt would follow them, a The Prime Minister: We will respond in full to the continuation of subsidy from the remaining British House on the fourth carbon budget. It is very important taxpayers would not? that we get that right. We have strict timetables and 1163 Oral Answers11 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1164 targets laid out in terms of our carbon reduction, and and other providers, then absolutely yes—and perhaps this Government are committed to making sure that we she can persuade her Front Benchers to make it Labour meet those. policy too.

Mr Speaker: Closed question, I call Mr Richard Bacon. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): One year on after the coalition was formed, would the Prime Computer Sciences Corporation Minister like to update the House on the progress that has been made in tackling the economic and financial wasteland that was left to us by the previous Government? Q12. [54967] Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): What discussions he has had with the Minister for the The Prime Minister: The point I would make to the Cabinet Office and the Secretary of State for Health on hon. Gentleman is that not only are exports growing the performance of Computer Sciences Corporation in and manufacturing growing, but we have 400,000 more installing Lorenzo software within the national people in work than there were a year ago—[Interruption.] programme for IT in the NHS. Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister: We are very concerned that the There is far too much noise in the Chamber. I heard the NHS IT projects that we inherited were of poor value question; I want to hear the Prime Minister’s answer. for money, an issue we raised repeatedly in opposition. According to the National Audit Office, even in 2008, The Prime Minister: The fact is, Mr Speaker, that delivery of the care records system was likely to take Labour Members do not want to hear what this four years more than planned. Since coming into Government have achieved over the last year, because it government, we have reviewed the projects with the is this Government who have cut the deficit, who capped intention of making the best of what we have inherited. immigration, who froze the council tax, who have linked In part, as a result of our work, the Government have the pension back to earnings, who have taken a million cut £1.3 billion from the cost of the national programme people out of income tax, who have reformed welfare, for IT in the NHS, including planned savings of at least and who have created more academy schools in 12 months £500 million from Computer Sciences Corporation. than that lot managed in 12 years. That is a record, with much more to do, that I think the coalition can be Mr Bacon: Does the Prime Minister agree that the proud of. NHS IT programme will never deliver its early promise, that in particular CSC has failed with Lorenzo and Q14. [54969] Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) that, rather than squandering £4.7 billion that is still (DUP): Last week the widow of Captain Mark Hale, unspent, the solution is to negotiate a way forward that who died serving in Afghanistan, was elected to the frees up billions of pounds for the benefit of patients? Northern Ireland Assembly as a member of the strengthened Democratic Unionist party team. Brenda The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend that is a leading campaigner to have the military covenant we are absolutely determined to achieve better value for enshrined in law. Will the Prime Minister recognise the money. Let me reassure him that there are no plans to public support for the campaign by Brenda and other sign any new contract with Computer Sciences Corporation folks, and will he give our heroes the support that they until the National Audit Office report has been reviewed deserve? and until the Public Accounts Committee meetings and The Prime Minister: First, I congratulate Brenda the Major Projects Authority reviews have taken place. Hale on her election. It is excellent that someone who is The Department of Health and the Cabinet Office will going to speak up for the military and for their families examine all the available options under the current is going to have a seat in the Northern Irish Assembly, contract, including the option of terminating some of, particularly when Ireland, both north and south, has or indeed all of, the contract. given so much to Britain’s armed forces over so many years. I do want to see a very strong armed forces Engagements covenant set out clearly, debated in this House, and clearly referenced in law. I want to see us make bigger Q13. [54968] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): steps forward on the things we do to help our armed Will the Prime Minister investigate why his much- forces’ families. We have made some steps over this last trumpeted Work programme will be delivered in year, doubling the operational allowance, giving more Scotland by private companies with only an 8% money to schools where forces children go, and helping voluntary sector component—or does his big society in ways including health and scholarships for those not apply in Scotland? whose parents have sadly fallen in battle. But I believe there is more we can do, and this Government will not The Prime Minister: While I accept that the figure the let up in making sure that we have an armed forces hon. Lady gives for the lead number of voluntary covenant we can be proud of. bodies is right, if she looks at the details of who in Scotland is going to be providing the voluntary sector Mr Speaker: Order. We now have a statement from projects—the subcontracting arrangements—I think the Foreign Secretary. I appeal to Members who are she will see bigger and better opportunities for the leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly so voluntary sector. If she is saying that we should be that we can hear the statement from Mr Secretary doing even more to open up public services to voluntary Hague. 1165 11 MAY 2011 Future Diplomatic Network 1166

Future Diplomatic Network posts were closed after 1997, including six in Africa, seven in Latin America and eight in Asia, and the overall number of UK posts in the world fell by more 12.33 pm than 30. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth We will embark on a substantial reinvigoration of the Affairs (Mr William Hague): With permission, Mr Speaker, diplomatic network to make it ready for the 21st century, I will make a statement on Britain’s future diplomatic to expand our connections with the emerging powers of network. the world, and to signal that where Britain was retreating, Our embassies and high commissions are the essential it is now advancing. The case for a strengthened network infrastructure of our country’s influence overseas and is utterly compelling. The only way to increase our of our economic recovery. They provide an early warning national prosperity and secure growth for our economy system for threats to our security and to wider peace, is through trade, and our embassies play a vital role in and assist British nationals in times of crisis. They supporting British business. The emerging powers are support our economy and help British businesses to expanding their diplomatic networks. Turkey is opening access markets abroad. They promote our values of many new posts and Brazil already has more posts in democracy and political freedom across the world, and more countries in Africa than Britain has. Given that help to craft vital international agreements from nuclear political influence will follow economic trends in the proliferation to climate change. We could not do without world and increasingly shift to the countries of the them for a single day. south and east over the long term, we need to plan I promised in our first week in office as the coalition ahead and create the right network for the future. Government that there would be no strategic shrinkage Although we are working closely with the new European of Britain’s diplomatic influence overseas under this External Action Service and ensuring that talented Government, and that instead we would strengthen British candidates enter it, there is not and will never be Britain’s diplomatic network. Today 1 want to set out any substitute for a strong British diplomatic service how we will achieve this while saving money overall. that advances the interests of the United Kingdom. We The spending review settlement for the Foreign Office can never rely on anyone else to do that. requires a 10% real-terms reduction in the budget. That We will therefore significantly increase our presence is, of course, on top of years of unplanned cuts after the in India and China, the world’s two emerging superpowers. last Government stripped the Foreign and Commonwealth We will strengthen our front-line staff in China by up to Office budget, more than half of which is spent in 50 officials and in India by 30, and will work to transform foreign currencies, of its protection against exchange Britain’s relationship with their fastest growing cities rate fluctuations in 2007, just before the sharp fall of and regions. We will also expand substantially our sterling. In the last two years before the general election, diplomatic strength in Brazil, Turkey, Mexico and the Foreign Office experienced a 14% real-terms reduction Indonesia. We will add diplomatic staff in the following in its budget, resulting in the sudden loss of personnel countries and places: Thailand, Burma, South Korea, and training in many embassies. The Foreign Affairs North Korea, Taiwan, Mongolia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Committee has done much to sound a warning about Angola, Botswana, Chile, Argentina, Colombia, Panama, these matters, and I have been unable to find any other Peru, Pakistan, Vietnam and the Philippines. major Foreign Ministry in the world that raises and We will maintain the strength of our delegations to reduces its diplomatic activity on the basis of movements multilateral institutions, such as the United Nations in in exchange rates. I promised to put an end to that New York and Geneva, NATO, and the European ludicrous situation, and the protection is now being Union in Brussels, all of whom have done an outstanding restored under a new foreign currency mechanism agreed job in recent months. We will maintain our active and with the Treasury. That means that the Foreign Office substantial embassy in Washington and our network of can once again plan properly for the future. consulates general across the United States, which remains Fortified by that ability to plan, we will find £100 million our indispensable ally in defence, security, foreign policy per year of administrative savings by the end of the and commerce. Parliament, on a carefully planned basis. We will save We have a strong network in the middle east and over £30 million by simplifying procedures, removing north Africa, on which the demands have been so great bureaucracy and ensuring that administrative work overseas in recent months. Although there is no need to open is done by locally recruited staff or in regional centres. new posts there, we have frequently and substantially We will save over £34 million a year from our annual reinforced our diplomats there in recent months and estates and security costs, for instance by moving to a have sent a special mission to Benghazi. Over the coming single site in London. We will reduce our annual staff months, we will review the need for additional deployments. costs by £30 million a year by 2014 by reducing to a This expansion does come at a price. In Europe, there minimum the number of junior staff posted overseas have already been significant savings in our diplomatic from London, by removing or reorganising their positions network. I am determined not to hollow out our embassies or recruiting locally. We will do so in consultation with there, but we will need to find further savings in recognition staff to mitigate the impact on individuals and their of the fact that only three of the world’s 30 richest cities careers. Those savings are not easy but they are essential. in total gross domestic product terms are in Europe, They will allow us to live within the necessary financial and the fact that our embassies there still cost more constraints and to provide the diplomatic network we than elsewhere. So although we will fully maintain our need for the future. embassy network across Europe, we will also find additional We will now reverse the previous Government’s policy resource for our expansion elsewhere in the world from of closing embassies and reducing our diplomatic presence the network of subordinate posts in Europe outside in key parts of the world, as a result of which 45 UK capital cities. We will withdraw diplomatic staff from 1167 Future Diplomatic Network11 MAY 2011 Future Diplomatic Network 1168

[Mr William Hague] world. A combination of strict savings in administrative spending, reductions in our subordinate posts in Europe some subordinate posts, while retaining UK Trade & and the other savings that I have set out will allow us, Investment and consular staff in many cases. That will for the first time in many years, to mount a diplomatic lead to there being fewer subordinate posts in European advance. For the first time in decades, our diplomatic countries. reach will be extended, not reduced. That is the right With those additional resources we will be able to use of public money, and it is the right course for open new British embassies, including in places where Britain in this century. they had previously been closed. We will reopen the This Government will work to build up Britain’s embassy in El Salvador, closed in 2003, as part of a influence in the world, to forge stronger bilateral relations major diplomatic advance in Latin America after years with emerging giants and some old allies that have been of retreat. We will open a new consulate general in neglected for too long, and to seize opportunities for Brazil at Recife, which will be one of approximately prosperity and advance democratic values. We will maintain seven new consulates general that we will open in the and enhance the Foreign and Commonwealth Office as emerging powers. We will open a new embassy in a central Department of State leading an ambitious and strategically important Kyrgyzstan, and another in July distinctive British foreign policy, and we will expand in the new nation of South Sudan. and use Britain’s diplomatic network to the very full, in I always doubted the last Government’s decision to the interests of the United Kingdom and in support of close the embassy in Madagascar, to which I know the wider peace and security of the world. many Members of all parties objected. I am delighted to say that we will reopen that embassy as soon as the Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire local political situation is right. I will also consider South) (Lab): I thank the right hon. Gentleman for upgrading our political office in Côte d’Ivoire to a full advance sight of his statement. I first join him, of embassy. I have made provision within our budget to course, in paying tribute to the work of all Britain’s open a new embassy in Somalia when the security diplomats around the world. Their work often goes situation has improved sufficiently. It is vital for our unrecognised here at home, but Britain’s prosperity and security that we are present in the horn of Africa, so I influence would be hugely diminished were it not for have made that decision now so that we will be ready to their considerable efforts. open the new embassy as soon as possible. The Government are right to assess where best to In addition to those new embassies, I give the House deploy the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s finite a commitment today that whereas the previous Government resources. In particular, I welcome the decision to expand shut 17 sovereign posts in their time in office, we intend Britain’s diplomatic presence in China. UK exports to to retain all 140 existing British embassies and high China were worth £5.5 billion in 2007—by 2009, that commissions throughout the life of this Parliament. had grown by more than 40% in cash terms—and Other savings will be found as we reduce, over time, our 17,000 British nationals are permanently resident in diplomatic footprint in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is China. Next week, I will visit Britain’s embassy in very large relative to the rest of the network. As the Beijing. I am conscious that it is playing a hugely nature of the UK military involvement in Afghanistan valuable role in supporting the promotion of Britain’s changes, we will redeploy staff elsewhere. values and interests in the world’s most populous country. The strength of our embassies is a signal to the world The FCO should not, of course, be exempt from the of our engagement and our role in international peace need to reduce the deficit, but in making cuts to a and security. They are the platform for the strong bilateral relatively small budget that has a global impact, there is relations that are increasingly vital in a networked world, a need for particular care and clarity. The Foreign and indispensable to success in multilateral diplomacy. Secretary spent a great deal of time in his statement Our decisions will mean that our reach when British criticising Foreign Office expenditure decisions under companies need assistance or British nationals are in the previous Government. Will he therefore confirm danger will go further and be stronger. That is why the that it was under his leadership of the FCO that it was maintenance, extension and strengthening of our global fined £20 million by the Treasury for its attitude to diplomatic network is a central objective of this Government “getting money out of the door” and will be a priority for the use of Foreign and Commonwealth Office funds over the coming years. before the end of the financial year? Although I have increased programme funding in the The Foreign Secretary placed a great deal of emphasis FCO to £139 million this year, our financial constraints on trade in his statement, but will he set out in greater and the priority that I am placing on retaining and detail the position on the headcount and resourcing of improving our diplomatic network for the future mean UKTI in the years ahead? that it will have to fall in future years, although it will The Foreign Secretary briefly mentioned cuts in remain above £100 million. I am sure it is right to give programme expenditure from the current level of priority to long-term relations and the reversal of Britain’s £139 million to a figure, he said, that would be retained strategic shrinkage. above £100 million. Perhaps, in the spirit of candour, he This development of our network should be seen will share a little more of his thinking on which programmes alongside the diplomatic excellence initiative that I have he is contemplating cutting to make the reduction of instigated in the FCO, which began six months ago. which he spoke. He has already announced real-terms That places a renewed emphasis on policy creativity, reductions in programme spending on counter-terrorism, in-depth knowledge of other nations, geographic and and a £2 million cash reduction in spending on counter- linguistic expertise and the enhancement of traditional narcotics and rule-of-law programmes in Afghanistan. diplomatic skills in a manner suitable for the modern Will he therefore confirm that the decisions announced 1169 Future Diplomatic Network11 MAY 2011 Future Diplomatic Network 1170 today will mean no reduction in the levels of staffing was closed not only under the previous Government, dedicated to counter-terrorism and counter-narcotics, but while he was a Foreign Office Minister. Trade either in Afghanistan or across the whole diplomatic offices in Brazil were closed, which I hope Labour network? Members will now recognise was a short-sighted mistake The right hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the given the expansion of the Brazilian economy, and fact that as we draw down our forces from Afghanistan, posts were withdrawn from Latin America, which was a greater resources will be freed up. However, given the mistake he chose not to dwell on in his questions. repeated and urgent calls from both sides of the House Furthermore, consulates general were closed in Frankfurt, for a diplomatic surge to match the military effort, will Stuttgart and elsewhere across Europe. Taken together, he set out precisely what will happen and when in the closure of more than 30 posts under the previous relation to FCO staffing in Afghanistan for the remainder Government was a fundamentally mistaken policy that of this Parliament? we are now changing. The withdrawal of the overseas pricing mechanism, which led to so many unplanned There is much to study in today’s announcement, and and rather chaotic Foreign Office spending reductions, the Opposition will scrutinise in detail the specific changes was also a mistake, and it is time that Opposition in each country. I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s spokesmen acknowledged that and said, as I said when re-announcement of his commitment to ensuring that I was in opposition, that in the future there will be no there is no strategic shrinkage of Britain’s influence changes to the Foreign Office budget according to under this Government, but such shrinkage cannot be exchange rate fluctuations. prevented through diplomats alone. Many commentators saw the Government’s initial plan—to step back from All those things were missing from the right hon. foreign affairs and ensure that a quiet period on the Gentleman’s response to my statement. He asked about world stage took place, reinforcing a domestic austerity various other details this year. The Treasury has not agenda—as a profound error. Perhaps for the pre-Tahrir fined the Foreign Office, which now has a much better square era, such a plan seemed appropriate, but the relationship with the Treasury than it did under the Government’s passivity and lack of ambition for a previous Government. Last night my right hon. Friend bilateral, mercantilist approach to foreign policy has the Business Secretary and I launched the new UK been found badly wanting by recent events in north Trade & Investment strategy and the FCO charter for Africa. business. Like all parts of government, UKTI has to manage with expenditure reductions and will have to Will the Foreign Secretary therefore provide the House produce more for its budget, which, like that of the with more detail on Britain’s staffing of those multilateral Foreign Office over time, will fall by 17%. However, it institutions of which he spoke so warmly? Ours is the will be able to do more with its budget by running it one country that can operate simultaneously through well. the EU, the Security Council, NATO and the Commonwealth. Will he therefore clarify what will Our programme spending decisions this year have happen to staffing in each of those institutions? already been set out in detail, but obviously what happens in future years will depend on how the situation develops. Is the Foreign Secretary really telling the House that, I am simply sounding a cautionary note today that after the seismic political changes that have swept north some of those programmes may have to be reduced. Africa and the middle east in recent months, with However, it is far too early to make decisions about protests from Morocco in the west to Iran in the east, that. Furthermore, reductions in Afghanistan are not the review makes no fundamental changes to the diplomatic immediate. I am merely foreshadowing changes, given distribution of assets in the region? That is what the that we have said that by 2015, our troops will not be Opposition heard him say, but many will think that that engaged in combat operations, or in anything like the is unsustainable. I suggest that he commits now to a numbers they are now. It follows that there will be more fundamental review of diplomatic coverage in the diplomatic changes as well. region in the months ahead. The strength of our diplomatic presence in multilateral The review must not be a means by which the institutions will not be affected. As I said in my statement, Government once again choose bilateralism over our diplomatic team have done a great job. However, it multilateralism, and trade over wider influence, and is also time for the right hon. Gentleman to recognise thereby, however inadvertently, sleepwalk into strategic that success in multilateral institutions often comes shrinkage. from strong bilateral relations, as well as a great diplomatic team in those multilateral institutions, which is one Mr Hague: I welcome some of the right hon. Gentleman’s reason why we place such emphasis on bilateral relations comments, including his tribute to the diplomats who with many of the leading world powers. In many cases, serve all Governments loyally and well, as, of course, those relations need to be restored. I do not know where they will continue to do in the future. I also welcome his he got the idea that the Government planned to step welcome for the expansion of our presence in China; it back from foreign affairs and think the world peaceful, is the largest of all these expansions of our diplomatic or that we planned to be passive. After all, I keep presence in the world. Relations with China have been finding myself going to countries that no Foreign Secretary built up and improved under successive Governments, visited during the entire 13 years of the previous and I welcome the fact that he is visiting it next week. Government, whether they be rather troublesome spots This trend has been continued across parties. such as Yemen or old allies such as Australia. The I wish, however, that the right hon. Gentleman had passivity was in the previous Administration, rather felt able to welcome some of our changes to the previous than the current one. Government’s policies, particularly the reopening of embassies they closed. The embassy in Côte d’Ivoire Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I went to Australia! 1171 Future Diplomatic Network11 MAY 2011 Future Diplomatic Network 1172

Mr Hague: Neither the Australians nor anyone here I am delighted, therefore, that the Foreign Secretary thought that the hon. Gentleman was the Foreign Secretary, has restored that protection. However, I hope that on even if he thought so. reflection he thinks about some of his other criticisms, Of course we will have to keep under review our which were wholly misplaced, including the suggestion diplomatic strength in the middle east, but our diplomats that we—I and other previous Labour Foreign Secretaries, have done a great job. We often reinforce them, as we and my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and have done in recent months, and we will need to do so Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander)—were not as again in the coming months. However, we have sovereign committed as him to the quality of traditional diplomacy, posts in the key nations concerned, so it is not necessary which is of fundamental importance. On that I hope to introduce new ones in the countries directly affected that there is a bipartisan approach. What more is he so far by the Arab spring. Ours is a real plan for doing to ensure that the posts and the work of the engagement in the world, with the right level of resources Department for International Development are brought and the right arrangements with the Treasury, and with under the broad umbrella of our overall diplomatic a vision of where we need a diplomatic presence in the effort? Will he also comment on reports of a request to future. There was no evidence of any of those things increase the budget of the European External Action under the previous Government. Service, which, at a time of spending restraint across Europe, is unlikely to be justified? Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): May I give a warm welcome to every aspect of this statement? To Mr Hague: Some interesting confessions are being be opening new embassies now is highly symbolic and produced by this statement. I am delighted to hear that sends an important signal to the rest of the world. Can the right hon. Gentleman objected to the previous my right hon. Friend assure me that in the focus on Government’s withdrawal of the Foreign Office exchange trade and consular activity, there will be equal emphasis rate protection—although he might have wanted to say on diplomatic skills, which many feel have shrunk in that at the time. However, I am grateful that he is now recent years, and which he seems to be addressing in the well ahead of his Front-Bench team in agreeing with me diplomatic excellence initiative? On a more practical that it was a mistake. It is time for the right hon. note, what percentage of the extra overseas posts will be Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South recruited locally? (Mr Alexander) to say the same and dissociate himself from this foolish policy of the previous Government. Mr Hague: As my hon. Friend knows, some of what I That has got me back on to that partisan theme again announced reflected the work and opinions of him and that the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) his colleagues on the Foreign Affairs Committee, and does not like—he must forgive me. I am not a very concerns expressed by the Committee under his partisan—in the party sense—Foreign Secretary, but on chairmanship and that of the hon. Member for Ilford this issue I think that the previous Government made South (Mike Gapes). Those have been well-founded some serious mistakes, so I make no apology for going concerns, such as over the loss of the exchange protection on about it. The closure of embassies and the chaotic and so on. My hon. Friend is right that alongside and state in which Foreign Office finances were left were accompanying our emphasis on trade goes the important mistakes—they were messed up by the previous diplomatic skills that I feel have been undervalued in Government—and I want to make it clear that under recent years in the Foreign Office. It is important for the coalition there is a very different approach. Today, diplomats to have in-depth knowledge of their countries, therefore, I will be a little partisan, although of course I geographic and historical expertise built up over time always have great respect for him. and the diplomatic skills of influencing events in other On the right hon. Gentleman’s other questions, the nations, not just of internal management. Those things EAS should not get the proposed budget increase. We are all being attended to in the diplomatic excellence are all having to manage within budgetary constraints, initiative launched by the Foreign Office. I shall illustrate and so should it, which is why the proposal in recent the proportion of UK-based and locally engaged staff: days is unacceptable, as the United Kingdom will make I envisage, for instance, that about one third of the clear. additional staff in China will be UK-based, and that We are working closely with the Department for about half in the emerging powers outside China and International Development. Together with my right India—in countries such as Brazil, Turkey, Mexico and hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Indonesia—will be UK-based. Development we are bringing about a cultural change in relations between the FCO and DFID, which has Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): In welcoming the always been difficult in the past. We are co-locating Foreign Secretary’s statement, may I say that it would more and the teams in each country are working together have been all the stronger had he not found it necessary well. My right hon. Friend and I are in daily consultation to parody and seek comprehensively to trash the record about the policies that we are pursuing—an approach of the previous Government? I accept that the budget that is working much better. under the previous Government was insufficient. I also accept, and thought at the time, that the Treasury’s Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): The decision in 2007 to impose this foreign exchange regulator Secretary of State put emphasis on UKTI, saying that, was utterly irrational, verging on the mad—[Interruption.] in effect, it would be able to do more with less. May I suggest that he could achieve that outcome by ensuring Chris Bryant: He was not Foreign Secretary then. that more people with genuine business experience are involved with UKTI? If he agrees with that premise, Mr Straw: No, I was Leader of the House—just so will he tell us how he might proceed towards achieving that we are clear. that objective? 1173 Future Diplomatic Network11 MAY 2011 Future Diplomatic Network 1174

Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is quite right that we and efficient way to strengthen our diplomatic connections, need people with good business experience working for to protect more Britons abroad and to increase Britain’s and with UKTI, but in a way we have gone above and voice in world affairs? beyond that. The Prime Minister has appointed Lord Green—Stephen Green—as the new Minister for Trade Mr Hague: I very much welcome the hon. Gentleman’s and Investment working in both the Foreign Office and warm welcome for the statement and the input from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. He him and his colleagues among Liberal Democrat Back comes with enormous business experience and has put Benchers, which has been valuable. We must work with together the new strategy for UKTI, which is very the European External Action Service and have good impressive and will set many new and demanding targets. people going into it. I am afraid that I am going to Right at the head of that strategy will be somebody who offend the Opposition again, but that will be part of is steeped in business experience and the private sector. rectifying something else that went awry under the last Government, which is that the number of British people Chris Bryant: Just for the avoidance of doubt, I am going into European institutions was too low. We are thoroughly aware that I was not the Foreign Secretary, putting that right, including in the External Action because nobody ever listened to a word I ever said. I am Service. It is right that it can be an extension of our sure that people listen to everything that the Foreign influence in the world, but it is not a substitute for it, as Secretary says, and act upon it. I made clear in my statement. The External Action May I ask the right hon. Gentleman about an omission Service does not mean that we do not need British in his statement? There may be others, but one country diplomatic posts or a British diplomatic presence, which that he made no mention of at all was Russia. We closed are the only way to be sure of advancing the interests of a post in Russia, but that was because the Russian the United Kingdom. Government insisted that we do so, because of the relations between our two Governments and, I believe, Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I warmly welcome the harassment and corruption in the Russian system. I the Foreign Secretary’s statement, especially the increase wonder whether he can update us on relations with in diplomatic activity in India and Pakistan. I am on Russia. I believe that he will be visiting soon, so will he record as being delighted that the right hon. Gentleman ensure that he always underlines human rights and the was the first Foreign Secretary ever to visit Yemen— need for doing away with corruption in the Russian although he did not manage to get to the city of my system? birth. As he knows, the embassy in Sana’a has been closed since 2010. There is limited consular access, visas Mr Hague: We are much reassured to know that the are not really being granted, and unfortunately the hon. Gentleman did not think that he was the Foreign previous Government closed our consulate in Aden. Secretary. We are also reassured to know that nobody Does he have the flexibility where necessary to increase took any notice of what he was saying. That is an diplomatic staff in areas that need attention, and will he enormous relief to us. be able to reopen the consulate in Aden once matters are resolved? As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have a strong diplomatic presence in Russia, with one of our major Mr Hague: The right hon. Gentleman has been a embassies in the world in Moscow. I do not think that it long-standing champion of the interests of this House is necessary either to increase the size of that embassy in Yemen. I am sorry that I did not get to the place of from the current level of activity or to reduce it. That is his birth—where I presume there is a statue and all why the embassy did not feature in the statement. Given kinds of other tributes to him; I look forward to seeing that we have 260 posts altogether, there are many nations that one day. I might have misheard him, but I think he around the world that I did not mention in the statement. said that the embassy in Sana’a had closed. I can assure I am highlighting changes today. him that it has not closed; it is functioning. I visited it in Relations with Russia have improved in recent months, February and it was working, albeit in difficult security and we have made an effort to improve them. I visited conditions—there is no doubt about that. As he knows, Russia last October and my counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, two attempts were made last year on the lives of our came here in February. The Prime Minister intends to diplomatic staff in Sana’a. The embassy works in the visit Russia later in the year. Both sides have been most difficult security conditions of any of our embassies working at improvements in relations, but I do not abroad, but it is still functioning and has an important think that we are at the point yet where we can reverse influence on events in Yemen. In the current security decisions that were taken under the previous Government situation it is not possible to open additional diplomatic about this. I make no criticism of the previous posts in Yemen. However, we have the flexibility in our Administration on this issue, because the difficult relations plans to open further consulates and reinforce our with Russia were not their fault. [Interruption.] Yes, presence in the middle east. That remains a live issue for that is very generous of me, isn’t it? We will always the future. continue to raise the difficult issues that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate the Foreign Secretary on strengthening our diplomatic Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I welcome the network at a time of such economic austerity. I strongly statement’s much needed strategic vision of a diplomatic agree with his view that embassies play a vital role in network that is stronger in a changed world, and the world trade. In that context, I congratulate our embassy Foreign Secretary’s commitment to working closely with in Japan on its sterling work on behalf of British the European External Action Service. Does he agree business, which I observed on a recent visit to Tokyo that working in close collaboration with the External last November. Could he advise the House on the Action Service and supporting it offers a cost-effective workings of his Department with the Department for 1175 Future Diplomatic Network11 MAY 2011 Future Diplomatic Network 1176

[Margot James] foreign affairs, because decisions on foreign policy are taken by unanimity in the European Union, and in the Business, Innovation and Skills, which is essential to event of a direct conflict arising, the British Foreign our country’s ability to maximise trade opportunities in Secretary would be able to veto any such proposal in the newer markets that he mentioned? the EU.

Mr Hague: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s reference Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): May I ask the to the great work of our embassy in Japan. At the Foreign Secretary to look carefully at any proposals to UKTI strategy launch last night I met someone from a reduce the number of staff at our embassy in Iraq, very innovative new business who was immensely because I believe that we have a certain responsibility enthusiastic about the support that it had received from towards Iraq? There is no dedicated human rights officer our embassy in Japan, so I can absolutely confirm what at the embassy. A human rights report was recently my hon. Friend says—[Interruption]—although I have produced by Amnesty International about conditions slightly forgotten her other point. in detention there. I always said that we should not Margot James: About relations with BIS. hand over the detained prisoners until the Iraqis had the capacity to deal with them, which they do not have. Mr Hague: Relations are very good. As I have said, It is therefore vital that we continue to have a considerable the Business Secretary and I launched our UKTI strategy presence in Iraq, possibly with a dedicated human together last night. Lord Green works equally—half rights officer. and half—in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Mr Hague: I will look at the point that the right hon. to ensure that we are absolutely in step on pursuing the Lady raises about a human rights officer. I can certainly strategy, and he is already doing a great job. reassure her that we will retain a very considerable presence in Iraq; there is no doubt about that. I should Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The Secretary of point out that it is one of our most expensive diplomatic State has announced that an embassy will open in operations, partly because of the security that is still South Sudan when it becomes an independent state required. The embassy in Baghdad and its associated shortly, joining the international community of nations posts amount to one of our five most expensive embassies in the United Nations and the African Union. Will he in the world. At the moment, that is out of proportion confirm that Whitehall has the most experience of any with the strategic and economic importance of Iraq, capital in the world when dealing with independence although that remains considerable. That is why we issues? The normal procedure is: recognition of the have to look for savings there, but I fully take the right right of self-determination; the acceptance of independence hon. Lady’s point and we will retain a very considerable referendum results; the establishment of diplomatic presence. relations; and the maintenance of close co-operation between friendly sovereign nations. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con): I am delighted to hear that our growing diplomatic Mr Hague: Of course Whitehall has experience in all network is committed to playing such an important those matters, but the hon. Gentleman will also see part in promoting UK business. Can my right hon. from my statement that running the necessary network Friend advise me on how small and medium-sized of sovereign posts and consulates around the world is enterprises, especially those in my constituency, can very expensive for any Government. Any newly independent make the best of that commitment? nation with any hope of maintaining its diplomatic strength in the world would have to come up with the several hundred million pounds in additional costs that Mr Hague: The new strategy of UKTI, which Lord would be necessary. Green has taken the leading role in putting together, places the greatest emphasis on small and medium-sized Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The Foreign Secretary enterprises. Only one in five of the SMEs in this country makes an excellent case for bilateral relations. I am sure are exporters on any significant scale. If we could raise he will understand if I point out that under the Lisbon that to one in four, which is the European average, the treaty, the External Action Service creates circumstances extra exports from Britain would more than cancel out in which there could be conflict between our own national the trade deficits that we have experienced in recent interests and those promoted by the European Union. years. This is a central goal, and UKTI’s work in the Does he therefore accept that it would be far better if United Kingdom will reach out to those businesses in we were to retrench, and abolish the External Action particular over the coming months and years. I will Service by renegotiating the Lisbon treaty? write to my hon. Friend with the details of what we announced last night. Mr Hague: I think that if my hon. Friend had his way, all our relations in Europe would be bilateral. He Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Foreign and I both opposed the Lisbon treaty and the creation Secretary has already referred to the reports produced of the External Action Service, but we have to work by the Foreign Affairs Select Committee in the last with what we have. As we are in this situation, and as we Parliament and in this one. He will be aware that just respect the fact that we are a coalition Government, our before the general election the Committee made a number approach is to make the best of this and to ensure that of serious recommendations. I congratulate him on there are British people working in the External Action announcing the implementation of several of them in Service. I hope that we shall not reach a point of the statement today, particularly those relating to the conflict, as my hon. Friend puts it, between the External embassy in Kyrgyzstan and to the scrapping of the Action Service and the United Kingdom’s approach to overseas price mechanism to bring back some form of 1177 Future Diplomatic Network11 MAY 2011 Future Diplomatic Network 1178 stability. Will he take a similar attitude to the Select We are putting the World Service on a long-term sustainable Committee reports produced during this Parliament, footing by moving it so that its funding comes from the and particularly to our recommendation that he reverse BBC licence fee and enabling it to work together with the cuts in the BBC World Service? the development of BBC World television. For the medium to long-term future, the World Service is on a Mr Hague: As the hon. Gentleman can see from the much sounder, more sustainable footing. statement, I always attach great importance to the Foreign Affairs Committee’s reports and to its work. I Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) thank him for his support for some of the decisions that (LD): The Foreign Secretary’s statement is very welcome, I have announced today. We have discussed the World and I particularly welcome the expansion of our missions Service on other occasions, and we will be able to in countries whose citizens are represented in large discuss it further. I will just point out that the reduction numbers here as students, residents and business people. in the World Service’s funding over the period from Those include China, India, Turkey and the countries 2007 to 2014 is roughly the same as the reduction that of Latin America. Will he also assure us that in parts of will have taken place in the Foreign and Commonwealth the world where there are tensions and conflicts—where Office as a whole, yet the Foreign and Commonwealth he also wants us to be properly represented—the work Office, through administrative savings and the changes of conflict prevention and the upholding of human that I have set out, is able to expand its network. That is rights is a key priority in all our missions, just as it is in not to make a direct analogy with what can be done the United Nations, where we have international with the World Service, but it is necessary for all public responsibilities? sector organisations to work out how to do more with less funding. Mr Hague: My right hon. Friend makes an important point. The work that we are doing in Yemen is conflict Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): I echo the right prevention. In particular, the very active work undertaken hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) in welcoming by the Foreign Office and the Department for International the announcement of an additional 30 diplomats for Development in Sudan during the referendum there the network in India. They will play a valuable part in earlier this year has so far made a material difference in creating the enhanced partnership that the two countries preventing new conflict. That is part of the rationale for are seeking, and in reversing the decline in our trading establishing a new embassy promptly in South Sudan. relationships that we witnessed under the previous Conflict prevention saves many lives, and it is much Government. In 1999 the UK was India’s fourth most cheaper and much more effective than having to intervene important source of imports, but by 2009 we were its in conflicts when they arise. That will remain an important 22nd most important. I urge my right hon. Friend to plank of our policies. ensure that the 30 new diplomats put trade representation at the top of their priorities. Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement about additional Mr Hague: As my hon. Friend knows, we already diplomatic staff. I have visited a few British embassies afford great importance to the links with India. In July around the world, and I recently visited our embassy in last year the Prime Minister led our largest ever ministerial Pakistan and met the staff there, including the high and trade delegation to India, and we are continuing to commissioner, Adam Thomson. I was incredibly impressed build up those links. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for by the work that they, and our diplomatic service in his welcome for the additional staff in India. I hope that general, do. In extending the number of posts and that addition will allow us to open new consulates members of staff, will the Foreign Secretary consider general at various locations, although we have to discuss sending people from different backgrounds out to those that matter with the Indian Government to ensure that missions? There is still a tendency for many of the they are happy with the locations. people who work for the Foreign Office and the diplomatic service to come from certain backgrounds and certain John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): May I universities. Is it perhaps time to open this up and to press the Foreign Secretary further on the question allow a much wider variety of people to serve as our asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South diplomats? (Mike Gapes)? The arguments that the Foreign Secretary has presented for the expansion and maintenance of the Mr Hague: The hon. Lady is right about the outstanding diplomatic network seem pretty sound, but do not work of our high commissioner and his staff in Pakistan, many of the same arguments apply to the BBC World and I will relay what she said to him. I agree that our Service, especially in the light of the events in the staff should come from many backgrounds, speaking as various Arab nations? Will he look at that matter again? a Foreign Secretary who went to a comprehensive school— and there have not been many of those before. Mr Hague: The argument is that all parts of the public sector have to make the best possible use of Chris Bryant: The one before you did! reduced resources. I hope that the way in which we are now running the Foreign Office budget is a good example Mr Hague: I did not say that there were not any; I of that, and that it can be used as an example to other said that there had not been that many before. If the organisations, including the World Service. None of us hon. Lady had met the new intake of graduates into the enjoys making reductions anywhere, but it would clearly Foreign Office, as I did a few months ago, she would be impossible to do all the other things that we are have seen a great diversity, and been completely reassured. committed to doing if we had maintained the World I think we are set on the right course for the future, but Service’s budget at exactly the level that it was before. wearealwaysreadytodomore. 1179 Future Diplomatic Network11 MAY 2011 Future Diplomatic Network 1180

James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): American countries the trading opportunities are, as I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement, particularly my hon. Friend says, enormous. Making the most of his emphasis on upgrading and developing diplomatic the trading opportunities is important not just for economic skills. Does he agree that Britain’s national interest in reasons, because in the long term this also bolsters our the future will be highly dependent on our ability to relations with those countries and helps to improve our build relationships with emerging economies, so that we security and our influence in the world. I do not view it need to develop the appropriate diplomatic skills to as a choice between trade and other aspects of our achieve that? foreign policy goals, as advancing trade helps us to advance our other goals as well. Mr Hague: I absolutely agree. That is what the diplomatic excellence initiative is all about. It is the main subject we Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I discussed at the FCO leadership conference taking place welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement and ask him this week for all our ambassadors and high commissioners for clarification. Where countries have shown high levels from around the world. It is necessary to know countries of brutality and oppression—this applies to Syria, and in detail—to know them geographically, to know personally not just now, because in the 1980s President Assad their leaders and potential leaders, to know their languages senior killed thousands during a similar uprising—will and to understand their history—in order to be able to our diplomatic relations be kept to the bare minimum? influence events. Those skills now need accentuating again. That is the clear and constant signal that I am Mr Hague: Our views on such outrages will be very sending out from the Foreign Office. clear across the House. This country stands for human rights, for respect for minorities and for democratic Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I very developments, and we have made our views about Syria much welcome today’s announcement, particularly the very clear in recent days. I would, however, depart from comments about Russia. I would like to move on to the thrust of my hon. Friend’s question in one respect, other European countries and our representation in in that it is sometimes necessary to have an enhanced them, and ask my right hon. Friend to reflect on the fact diplomatic presence even for countries with which we that not all capital cities in Europe are the centres of have difficult relations—in order to do more work with commerce and industry. When he is thinking about our them, to try to influence them more effectively and to representation, will he consult British businesses—our understand what is going on more fully. Diplomacy is trade with Europe will remain vital in the years to about talking to people with whom we disagree, as well come—to ensure that we have the right representation as about developing good relations with friends. That is in the right places? why North Korea appeared in the list of countries for which I announced an increase in the number of our diplomats. Despite the difficulties of our relationship Mr Hague: Yes, my hon. Friend makes a very important with that country—in fact, because of those difficulties—we point. One commitment in the FCO charter for business need to do more in order to influence what is happening that I published last night is to consult business about there. the work of UK Trade & Investment. That will, of course, continue. Let me reassure her that the changes I Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): I am very am announcing for Europe do not necessarily mean impressed by the approach my right hon. Friend has changes to UKTI deployments and consular work around articulated today to the European External Action Service Europe. We believe that it is possible for diplomatic and the need to encourage British candidates not only work in European countries to be centred on those to participate in that service but to get more widely nations’ capitals, but it will also be important in many involved in European institutions. Apart from simply cases to retain our commercial functions and presence promoting British applications, could he do more, for in many other parts of those countries. example, by expanding the number of time-limited secondments as a special initiative? It is very important Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I congratulate that the skills acquired are then brought back to bear the Foreign Secretary on this truly internationalist statement, on the bilateral relations about which he has said so especially on the significant expansion of the UK’s much today. diplomatic presence in Latin America—a region of great potential, where we have many friends. Will my Mr Hague: Yes, we are reintroducing the European right hon. Friend comment a little more on the opportunities fast stream for UK civil servants so that they can for UK business in that region and the extent to which experience working in European institutions and then any expansion of our presence will be focused on promoting bring that experience back with them. The fast stream trade? was discontinued—for about 10 years, I believe—after eastern and central European countries joined the European Mr Hague: Trade is an important part of it. We need Union and the opportunities were reduced. Now that to be aware that the whole of Latin America is an there can be more of an equilibrium in the intake into economy bigger than China, and that it is growing at the EU, it is time to encourage the fast stream again. We very substantial rates. That is why it is important to are restarting it, and British civil servants will be able to strengthen our diplomatic presence. In many Latin spend part of their careers in European institutions. 1181 11 MAY 2011 Points of Order 1182

Points of Order In the last hour, Sky News has reported on not just what appears to be the commissioner’s report, but a meeting of the relevant Committee of Members of the 1.27 pm House of Commons. That is clearly in breach of rulings Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, that you, Sir, have made in the past, and of all the Mr Speaker. principles guarding both the confidentiality of and The shadow Foreign Secretary said earlier that he respect for the proceedings of, in particular, our very was grateful to the Foreign Secretary for advance sight important Committees. May I not just alert you to what of the statement. Unfortunately, however, the whole has happened, Mr Speaker, but ask you to state—as you House, and indeed the whole country, had advance have on previous occasions, in the most strident terms—that sight of it because it appeared in The Guardian this it is clearly a breach of the rules of the House, and that morning. In some respects, the newspaper provided everyone who has breached the rules must understand greater detail than appeared in the Foreign Secretary’s the implications of that when the matter is examined statement. Furthermore, the Secretary of State for both by you and by the relevant Committees? Transport’s announcements in a written statement were all broadcast on Radio 4’s “Today” programme this Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman morning. I understand that everyone thinks that this for his point of order. I hope that I made clear in the happens all the time, and that it also happened under most uncompromising terms, on behalf of the House, the Labour Government and all the rest of it, but I urge my view of unauthorised disclosures in response to the you, Mr Speaker, to take action. It is not enough to say point of order raised yesterday by the right hon. and every time this issue is raised that you deplore it and you learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies want it to stop. Action needs to be taken to find out Campbell). On that occasion I made the point—which I how frequently Ministers ignore the House and make must reiterate today—that at this juncture what has announcements in other places before they make them been raised is not specifically a matter for me, but a here. matter for the Committee itself to investigate. The Committee may wish to establish how this came Mr Speaker: The Procedure Committee has been about, because I think that all Members who care about looking into the matter, and its thoughts will be shared this place would unite in deprecating it in the strongest more widely with the House. I accept the importance of terms, because of the unfairness to the Member concerned the point that hon. Gentleman has made. At this stage, I and the rank discourtesy to the institution of the House would point out that the Foreign Secretary is here and is of Commons. free to respond if he so wishes. Also, it can be difficult to identify a specific breach. Where such a breach is Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): On identified, culprits have been asked to apologise to the a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wish to raise with you House, so it is not just a question of making general the extraordinary conduct of 10 Downing street in denunciations. Specific requirements have been imposed relation to correspondence from Members of Parliament. on Ministers. Before I hear the Foreign Secretary, let me On 26 April, I wrote to the Prime Minister at the say that I know of no parliamentarian or member of request of a constituent. During the last half hour I the Government who has greater respect for the House have received a reply from 10 Downing street, signed than him. I believe we will hear from him. “Mrs E Adams, Direct Communications Unit”, saying that my letter has been diverted to receive a response Mr Hague: Further to that point of order, I hope that from a Minister in the Treasury. you think, Mr Speaker, that the Foreign Office does a When I telephoned Mrs Adams to ask why the diversion good job on the whole of making sure that announcements had taken place, I was first transferred to someone in are made to this House. I have lost count of the number the correspondence unit, who told me that Mrs Adams of times I have resisted the temptation to appear on the did not speak on the telephone. I said that as she had media before making a statement here. In this case it written to me, I assumed that she was capable of speaking was necessary, because of the staffing implications, to to me on the telephone. I was then transferred to make announcements about these changes yesterday at someone who described herself as “head of the a private meeting of our ambassadors and high correspondence unit”, who said that Mrs Adams did commissioners. That might have affected the media not exist and that hers was a computer-generated name. coverage. Presumably, hers is also a computer-generated bogus Mr Speaker: I note what the Foreign Secretary has signature. said. We will leave it there for today. It so happens that I have been a Member of the House of Commons for nearly 41 years, and that in the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) past whenever I wrote to a Prime Minister, that Prime (LD): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise for Minister replied to me personally, whichever party was not giving you notice of it, but the matter has arisen in office and whether I was a Back Bencher or a Front literally since I left the Chamber a few moments ago. Bencher. During the past year, this Prime Minister has Yesterday, Mr Speaker, you gave a very clear indication not once replied directly to any letters that I have sent of your view when my right hon. and learned Friend the him, but has diverted them to other Departments. Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) I ask for your guidance, Mr Speaker. Can you tell me raised a matter concerning my right hon. Friend the first why the present Prime Minister does not answer Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws) and an inquiry by the letters as his predecessors have, and secondly what Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, after reports extraordinary events are taking place in 10 Downing concerning the commissioner’s report had appeared in a street as a result of which it sends letters from someone national newspaper and on one of the television channels. who does not exist and expects people to accept that? 1183 Points of Order 11 MAY 2011 1184

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman Planning (Grade 1 Agricultural Land for his point of order. First, I must confess that during Protection) my 14 years in the House it has not always been my experience, having written to a Prime Minister, to receive Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order a reply from that Prime Minister. Sometimes it happens, No. 23) and sometimes it does not. Secondly, let me say that in general—as Members will understand—the way in which 1.35 pm letters are dealt with by Departments is principally a Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I beg to move, matter for those Departments. Thirdly, let me say to the right hon. Gentleman and to the House as a whole that That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit local authorities granting planning permission involving the development of Grade 1 I consider it to be of the utmost importance for Members agricultural land other than in exceptional circumstances; and for to be treated with courtesy by the Departments or connected purposes. agencies to which they write. The Bill aims to reinstate the protection that was in It seems peculiarly unfortunate that the right hon. place when food production was one of our national Gentleman’s inquiry has been handled in this way. If it security considerations and was seen as a strategic asset. is possible to imagine a Member who would take such Although there is guidance on development on agricultural treatment lying down, that Member is certainly not the land, it does not provide a sufficiently robust defence of right hon. Gentleman. what I believe is a national asset. However, the Government If there are no further points of order, I think we will have an excellent opportunity to include the objectives leave it there for today. Let us proceed to the ten-minute of my Bill in the forthcoming national policy planning rule motion, for which the hon. Member for South frameworks. I hope that, unlike the previous Government, Thanet (Laura Sandys) has been waiting very patiently. this Government do not see the countryside as merely a public amenity space or an aesthetic experience for urban dwellers to enjoy. Grade 1 agricultural land is important and has strategic implications for all our constituents, urban and rural. Let us be clear that once highly productive land has been built on, there is no going back—it has gone for ever. Some might ask, “Who cares?” The reason why food production should be of interest to everyone is that we are increasingly vulnerable to global food price rises that have an impact on each and every one of our constituents. International protectionism, climate change and increased global population are all resulting in significant volatility in the food sector. We must therefore do what we are doing in the energy sector, and regard national food production as part of our national security agenda. An essential part of that agenda is ensuring that we do not reduce our ability to produce food domestically, and land use is at the heart of the issue. Agriculture, food production and land use are distant concepts to many of our constituents. I myself was brought up in London, far from anything to do with the world of farming. Do the majority of our constituents worry about whether a farm is turned into a golf course or whether some fields are sold for development? That does not affect us, and if we gain a new business park houses or some new houses and the farmer can retire to the Caribbean on the proceeds, good for him. Our lack of appreciation of food production is due to the fact that our capacity to produce food is not seen as a strategic asset. It is no longer considered to be important to our economy and the well-being of our population. As a result, the amount of arable land in the United Kingdom has decreased by 30% and food imports have increased to 47% over the past 20 years—of course, no one has been on the streets protesting. The ideal combination of globally sourced food and reasonable prices was shaken in 2008. There was a perfect storm of bad weather conditions, crop failures, a change in global consumption patterns, a 50% leap in the cost of a barrel of oil and some speculation, and commodity prices rocketed by 66%. The food price spike was further compounded by a new phenomenon, food protectionism. Global variations in food prices fluctuated dramatically. Countries that withheld exports, 1185 Planning (Grade 1 Agricultural Land 11 MAY 2011 Planning (Grade 1 Agricultural Land 1186 Protection) Protection) such as Indonesia, were able to keep their domestic reliance on energy in agriculture, while the British Chamber prices down, but those that did not experienced a much of Shipping calculates that sea transport costs are increasing higher rate of food inflation, which created real political due to piracy, and the degradation of land due to instability. Unfortunately, that experience revealed the droughts, flooding or urbanisation will put further stresses short-term benefits of protectionism, and it has created on existing productive land, yet we have no statutory a new political and economic reality that might lead to defence against those who might want to build on our further protectionism and exacerbate food volatility. most productive land. Much of this has passed us by, however. Food security We must start to approach food security with the and food prices are rarely, if ever, raised in the House, same zeal that we approach energy security. Domestic and few of our constituents are particularly concerned energy supply is seen as critical to our long-term energy so long as the supermarket shelves are full of what they security. We seem to understand that reliance on volatile want to buy at a price that they are prepared to pay. suppliers of energy is bad for economic growth, stability The price of food should be making the future of and consumers, and for food security, too, we need to productive land an important concern for us all. The start to put in place the measures that will give us Foresight report on food security stresses that further certainty in terms of price, production and “the past century of low food prices is at an end.” vulnerability of supply. Agricultural production will become a much more As the Minister of State, Department for Communities important industry sector, and at this time when food and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member production is so important, we have no restrictions in for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), will know, according place to stop developers tarmacing over our own highly to the Campaign to Protect Rural England by 2030 productive food-producing land. Kent will lose 10% of its productive land due to sea level rises, so we will be losing productive land in any Price is starting to impact on my constituents. In my case due to climate change and sea level rises. It would constituency, the average wage is just £17,000 and therefore be mad at the same time to lose additional productive more money as a percentage of income is spent on food land when we have the powers to stop that happening. than in many other areas. My constituents are noticing I urge the Minister to take on board the genuine prices. I had a gentleman in my surgery this weekend importance of this Bill for wider economic and social who said that he had had a heart attack and was told by needs, to recognise that the protection it offers grade 1 his doctor that good fresh food was essential to his agricultural land must be incorporated into the national health. As he is on jobseeker’s allowance, he cannot policy planning frameworks, and to ensure that food afford to eat good food and is now reverting to buying production is seen as an increasingly important part of cheap junk food. our domestic security. I realise that protecting grade 1 Supermarkets are extending their promotional offers, agricultural land is not the sole answer to food insecurity as they know more than anyone the extent to which and price increases, and I am not proposing food prices are rising, but for how long will they be able to sovereignty, but land use protection is one of the resist passing on the increased commodity costs to the mechanisms that we must put in place in order to consumer? Prices are increasing, nutritional standards reduce our exposure to the volatility of the international will fall, the vulnerable in our constituencies will have to market. Therefore, we must, at the very least, not lose revert to the cheapest food possible, and—following on more productive land than we have lost to date. from those who have protested about fuel price Question put and agreed to. increases—we will receive more post from people on the subject of food prices. There is a good reason for that. Ordered, Commodity prices in April were 4.7% higher than in the That Laura Sandys, Zac Goldsmith, Mr Tim Yeo, same period last year. I hope the Treasury is looking Mr Roger Gale, Caroline Lucas, Rebecca Harris, Bill into the impact that that will have on economic growth Esterson, Elizabeth Truss, Richard Drax, Priti Patel and inflation; the Bank of England certainly is. Kraft and Mr Dominic Raab present the Bill. Foods has announced that it will be raising its food Laura Sandys accordingly presented the Bill. prices, which will hit every one of our constituents. The Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on cost of food is also increasing, because of the high Friday 14 October, and to be printed (Bill 187). 1187 11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1188

Education Bill (2) For the purposes of this section, a relevant pupil— (a) is a pupil on the school roll of the Academy; and Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee. (b) is aged 14.’. Government amendments 34, 35, 38 and 39.

New Clause 20 Mr Gibb: I shall also speak to Government new clause 21 and Government amendments 34, 35, 38 FINANCING OF PUPIL REFERRAL UNITS and 39. ‘(1) Section 45 of SSFA 1998 (financing of maintained It is a delight to return to scrutinising the Education schools: maintained schools to have budget shares) is amended as Bill after 22 pleasurable Committee sittings. follows. (2) In subsection (1A), omit “or” at the end of paragraph (b), Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): And innovative and after paragraph (c) insert “, or ones. (d) a pupil referral unit in England.” (3) In subsection (3)— Mr Gibb: Yes, and innovative sittings. (a) in paragraph (a), after “pupil referral units” insert “in New clause 20 seeks to give pupil referral units in Wales”; England greater autonomy, to enable them to provide (b) after paragraph (a) insert— vulnerable children with high-quality education and “(aa) references to the governing body of a maintained support. In the schools White Paper, “The Importance school or of a school maintained by a local authority of Teaching”, we announced that we would give PRUs shall be read, in relation to a pupil referral unit in control over their budgets and staffing. We had intended England, as references to the management committee to use PRU regulations to achieve the financial control for the unit (in spite of paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to aspect of that objective, but although we could do that, the Education Act 1996); the regulations would become very complex and difficult (ab) references to governors shall be read, in relation to a to understand and use. The easiest and clearest way to pupil referral unit in England, as references to the members of the management committee for the achieve the objective is to amend section 45 of the unit;”.’.—(Mr Gibb.) School Standards and Framework Act 1998, so that the provisions on school finances apply to PRU management Brought up, and read the First time. committees. That is what new clause 20 does. 1.47 pm This is a small change, but its effect will be significant, and we believe that it will be an important driver for The Minister of State, Department for Education further improvement in the PRU sector. In common (Mr Nick Gibb): I beg to move, That the clause be read with our other education reforms, it is based on the a Second time. trust that we place in the teaching profession and our desire to give schools of all kinds the freedom and Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it autonomy to run their own affairs. will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 21—Charges at boarding Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Will the Minister Academies. explain how each PRU’s budget share will be calculated? New clause 1—Tackling educational underachievement— Mr Gibb: The finance regulations will apply to PRUs ‘(1) The Secretary of State may, by order, in circumstances in the same way that they apply to maintained schools, where an existing school has for the preceding two years or for three of the preceding five years failed to meet or exceed the and, of course, we are currently consulting on the entire “National Floor Standards”, disapply any provisions of the school funding arrangements. Academies Act 2010 to facilitate the making of an academy The purpose of new clause 21 is to ensure that rights under section 4 of the Academies Act 2010 (Academy orders). enjoyed by pupils in boarding academies are the same (2) For the purposes of this clause the term “National Floor as those in maintained state boarding schools. Under Standards” means standards of educational attainment and section 458 of the Education Act 1996, local authorities progress of pupils established from time to time by the Secretary are required to remit boarding fees for pupils from their of State and in place at the time of the order and which may be area who are attending state boarding schools in certain applied retrospectively for the purposes of this section.’. circumstances. Those provisions apply solely to maintained New clause 13—Schools Causing Concern and schools. When section 458 was enacted, there were no disapplication of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection academies, and as a number of boarding schools are of Employment) Regulations 2006— taking the opportunity to convert to become academies, ‘(1) The Academies Act 2010 shall be amended as follows. we want to ensure that the pupils at those boarding (2) In section 4, at end insert— “The Secretary of State may by academies continue to have their right to be considered order disapply the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of for a remission of boarding fees safeguarded. So the Employment) Regulations 2006 when making an academy order new clause mirrors the provisions in section 458, with under this section if the school is eligible for intervention (within the exception that we are not mirroring subsection (1), the meaning of Part 4 of the Education and Inspections which enables local authorities to charge fees for boarding. Act 2006).”’. That provision is unnecessary in the case of academies, New clause 19—Purchase by academies of places for because the funding agreement allows academies to pupils aged 14 at a private school— charge boarding fees. It must be right that on the ‘(1) An Academy may apply its funds for the purpose of remission of boarding fees we have a level playing field purchasing a place at a private school for a relevant pupil for the in our treatment of pupils at maintained and academy whole or part of the pupil’s remaining school career. boarding schools. 1189 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1190

Government amendments 34 and 35 are being introduced Kevin Brennan: Will the Minister confirm that full so that some of the pupils who would most benefit from data and statistics will be kept on the number of pupils good alternative provision—AP—can be referred to AP being referred in this way, just as they are for exclusions? academies. Mr Gibb: Local authorities will, of course, keep Kevin Brennan: Will the Minister give way? records. Our trial is being run precisely to tackle the problem that the hon. Gentleman is hinting at. We want Mr Gibb: I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman. to make sure that the responsibility for what happens to pupils once they are excluded is retained in the system, which is why we are running the trial from this year to Kevin Brennan: I am grateful, again, to the Minister, see whether we can move that responsibility to the and I think that it sometimes saves us time if we do schools where the pupils are originally registered. things in this way. On new clause 21 and amendment 38, what safeguards Kevin Brennan: Clearly, if pupils are no longer being are in place to ensure that excessive fees cannot be excluded as an alternative provision referral is being charged to the state in relation to independent boarding made, it is important that that is properly monitored schools that become academies? and followed. Will the Minister confirm that we will have a clear picture, across the board, of what is happening Mr Gibb: Ultimately, it is up to the local authority as on referrals to alternative provision, just as we do on to whether it remits boarding fees. These powers are exclusions? rarely used and apply only in two very limited circumstances. Mr Gibb: I will write to the hon. Gentleman to make The first is where no other educational provision that is sure that I am giving him an accurate response on the needed for the particular pupil is available in the area. data collection issues to which he is referring. Of course The second, as an alternative, is where the parent is the funding for places at an AP academy will come suffering financial hardship, and in those circumstances through the system, where a record will be kept to make the local authority can take into account how much it sure that that funding is properly allocated. He is referring remits. So it is very much up to the local authority to to the national collection of data, and I will write to make the decision, and of course it would not be him about that to make sure that we have the case persuaded to pay unreasonable figures in those precisely summarised. circumstances. On Government amendments 34 and 35, the current Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): This wording of clause 51 means that an AP academy would discussion is important. The Minister will know that be restricted to taking a majority of its pupils as referrals many Labour Committee members were particularly by local authorities under section 19 of the Education concerned about vulnerable children, so will he explain Act 1996, which places a duty on local authorities to why we are discussing this now, why these provisions make arrangements to provide education for children were not introduced earlier and why we have not had a who, because of illness, exclusion or otherwise, would proper chance to debate at length these fundamental not receive suitable education unless those arrangements issues, which he knows to be of great concern to Committee were made. That restriction arises because of the definition members? of “alternative provision”, which is why there is a restriction on the amount of children that can be taken Mr Gibb: The issues were raised in Committee, and as a result of other referrals. these are technical amendments—they are about getting the wording of the provisions right. These things could We know that, in addition to those children, the AP have been done in a more cumbersome way, but we sector also provides education and support for pupils decided to deal with them in the Bill, so that the referred to it by schools for early intervention to tackle provisions are made simpler for people who read it. behavioural problems. We want to encourage greater There is no policy difference between what we discussed use of early intervention, which can re-engage a child in Committee and what is set out clearly in the White and address behavioural problems at an early stage and, Paper. thus, reduce the risk of permanent exclusion. That type Government amendment 39 is even more technical. It of intervention benefits both the child, whose education seeks to correct a missed consequential amendment in is less disrupted, and the school, which can ensure that the Bill. It removes a reference in section 77(3) of the other pupils’ education is not disrupted by poor classroom School Standards and Framework Act 1998 to section 77(4) behaviour. The trial that we will run of a new approach because, if the Bill is passed, paragraph 17(4) of schedule 14 to exclusions will help us to understand how schools to the Bill will remove subsection (4) from section 77, so can most effectively use early intervention in this way. we do not want any references to section 77(4) in the We want AP academies to be responsive, and it Bill. I urge hon. Members to support the Government makes no sense to restrict the proportion of children amendments and new clauses. that they can take from school referrals. Alternative provision academies will be assessed against rigorous Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I call Mr Andy criteria in order to obtain academy status, and they will Burnham. be accountable through their funding agreements or grant arrangements, and through Ofsted inspections. Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Deputy The high level of accountability should mean that they Speaker. are among the best providers, and we want them to be Labour’s main objection to this Bill is with how it able to accept the children who most need their provision, takes power off parents and pupils—[Interruption.] regardless of whether they are referred by schools or by Have we moved on to the amendments about admissions, local authorities. Mr Deputy Speaker? 1191 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1192

Mr Deputy Speaker: No, we are dealing with the Finally, the Minister mentioned the technical whole of the first group. Government amendments, and I am grateful for his explanation of them. Andy Burnham: Then I think that you should have called Kevin Brennan instead. Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): I rise to support Mr Deputy Speaker: I did ask the Whip to check. I new clause 19, which stands in my name. I can do so call Mr Kevin Brennan. briefly and I am sure that colleagues will be grateful for that, but I must explain that the new clause comes not Kevin Brennan: Sorry about that, Mr Deputy Speaker. out of the ether of theory but out of practice. I will Of course I would never interrupt my boss in mid-flow—we happily declare an interest, in case I have to, in that I know the consequences of that sort of thing. chair one of the two new academy schools in Birkenhead. The Opposition do not have any fundamental objections The governors have made no decisions on the new to the Government amendments and new clauses. We clause, if we were to be successful, or on some of the merely seek to question, as my hon. Friend the Member other options about which I shall speak. We are testing for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) has done, the late the ground to see the best forms of education we can stage at which they have been introduced, because we offer some young people in Birkenhead. The new clause are now on Report. is very simple and states that as an academy we will be able to buy any places anywhere we want for our pupils, I have asked the Minister some questions about how including in private schools, but that we should not be each PRU’s budget share will be calculated, and he has able to do so until pupils have spent three years with given half an answer. I wonder whether that calculation us—that is, until they are 14. The governors are seriously will be done on the same basis as that for a special considering how we can start to reinforce once again the school, where the majority of funding goes on the basis idea of life chances for our pupils by giving them a of places and not on occupancy, unlike in mainstream range of options that they might wish to choose at 14. schools. When Labour produced a White Paper on this very subject, we gave more examples of where that is I know that this is the responsibility of the Minister’s already happening. colleague in the Lords, but I am anxious that we should The Minister has confirmed that new clause 21, to be successful in bidding for moneys from the new which he has referred, will not give a blank cheque to tranche of finance that the Chancellor announced in independent boarding schools seeking to become academies the Budget to establish what I might call a Baker that will enable them to charge excessive fees and that it academy. We would like some of our pupils to be able to will be up to local authorities to decide whether it is consider that as one option. We have a first-class appropriate to support pupils in such a way. He is metropolitan college and we would like pupils to be able absolutely right that there are circumstances in which it to choose—perhaps at 14—to transfer their talents and is appropriate for pupils to be supported in boarding prosper even more in those circumstances. We will, of provision by the state. In some cases, that is entirely course, have some pupils of high academic attainment appropriate, but it is important that we should have and it would be good to be able to fast-track them and safeguards in place to ensure that there is no blank their education in a local private school. This new cheque for independent schools that are seeking to clause is about giving not just our academy but academies become academies, and the Minister sought to reassure in general that power. me on that. I asked our brilliant experts in the Library whether the academies had such a power now and, more importantly, 2pm whether the law would prevent us from exercising it now. The answer was that, on the face of the record, we Mr Gibb: Of course, boarding academies will not be do not have that power now, but it is certainly cloudy permitted to make a profit on the boarding elements of whether any provision in statute would prevent us from their provision, so there are double safeguards in place. using it. As the Bill moves to the other place, where we Kevin Brennan: I am grateful to the Schools Minister will try to move this clause in all seriousness, I am for that answer, which is very helpful. anxious that we should clarify the position beyond any doubt. On amendments 34 and 35, I would be grateful if we could have an assurance that there is no risk that pupils I do not know the views of Tory Back Benchers on will be referred unnecessarily under these provisions or such a new clause, but I imagine that the Liberal Democrats that there will be a huge increase in the volume and would insist that it should be part of the renegotiations therefore the cost of alternative provision. What safeguards of the coalition agreement, as it ticks every box in the are in place to ensure that pupils are not simply referred Liberal vocabulary. If we felt that they were dragging out of mainstream schools and into alternative provision their feet, in Birkenhead we would know who was because, for example, their academic performance is not stopping us increasing life chances for some of our up to scratch as regards hitting their English baccalaureate poorest pupils. If the Liberals made this provision a key targets or because schools want a way of dealing with part of their renegotiations, they would get the credit. pupils with special educational needs? I would be grateful The new clause moves the focus of the debate from if the Minister could assure us that strict safeguards will buildings to pupils. I know we love the cant in this place be in place to ensure that the new alternative provision and to pretend that we have moved in such a way, but approach cannot be abused in such a way by any everything we decide is really about buildings and schools that are seeking to hit any particular targets on institutions. The clause takes the debate beyond institutions special educational needs and academic achievement. and schools, and centres it on pupils. What can we buy Who will pick up the bill in such cases? Will it be the that they most need at a certain point of time? I hasten referring school or the local authority? to add—in case this disappoints any Tories—that this is 1193 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1194 not a subsidy to the private sector. We would buy this as governors yet—we want to know the range of provision at less cost than that spent in a state school on possibilities that we could develop for our young pupils the very small group of pupils whom we might wish to at the academy school. This new clause is not going to give the opportunity of going to a local public school. If go away. This is where the debate is going and the the Liberals opposed us, they would be saying that they Government have a choice between joining us or opposing were not in favour of our having this freedom and that us until they have to give way. On that happy note, I we would have to spend the money in the state sector, have said what I want to say about this probing new even though that would mean spending more and not clause, which we will try to push more seriously in the getting the sort of education that we want for the small other place. minority of pupils who might benefit from such choice. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): It is a great pleasure Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): to follow the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) As someone who benefited from the assisted places for the second time in succession. It has also been a scheme, I can perhaps understand more than most the great pleasure to participate in proceedings in Committee right hon. Gentleman’s argument about what his provision on the Bill. I am still relatively new to the House and I might do for pupils’ life chances. I have no concluded found it encouraging, compared with the spectacle that view on the new clause, which I shall consider carefully—I we see at Prime Minister’s Question Time, to see parties am sure the rest of the House will do so, too—but why on both sides coming together to put their experience would an academy that purchased a place at a public and best interests at the forefront of trying to improve school for one of its pupils spend less on that pupil than education in our country. I pay tribute to all the parties if it maintained them in the academy? for doing that. I should like to comment mainly on my new clause 1, Mr Frank Field: For the simple reason that the average but first I shall make a couple of points about special payment that we get from taxpayers to educate would educational needs, which the hon. Member for Cardiff be less than the marginal cost that the school might West (Kevin Brennan) has mentioned. It was a great wish to charge us for allowing pupils to attend it. Its pleasure, a week ago, to welcome the Secretary of State costs would be covered, we would make a profit and we for Education to Bedford to talk to the head teachers of would be doing what we would wish for the small our three special schools, the Grange, Ridgeway and number of our scholars who might want to move into a St Johns, and to talk about the Green Paper. The public school. coalition Government have moved forward significantly Let me emphasise that such a reform is not just about in understanding what is required for children with changing institutions and breaking down the terrible, SEN not only while they are at school but when they are crippling divide in this country between public schools preparing to go on to the work environment. That is a and state schools. The new clause is an attempt to begin record that the Government can build on over the next a reform that would allow us to spend our budget in the five years and which will be a tremendous success and best way possible to give the greatest advantages and tribute to them. The Secretary of State’s discussion with life chances to pupils, whoever they are. It is not the the head teachers in Bedford and Kempston was most only option we wish to develop; we will not be prevented illuminating. Two of those three schools are outstanding from developing the others and we will develop them. and one is good with outstanding features, so they are In this area, however, there is some doubt about what already providing excellent education to children, and the law says. their knowledge and experience is most valuable. It is important to consider the particular impact of Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): First, I hasten the Bill on exclusions. The Minister of State, Department to clarify that it is not the coalition agreement that is for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor under renegotiation. There are many matters outside Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), knows how important the coalition agreement that arise, which the two parties this issue is, particularly for children with autism and will need to deal with. the impact on them if they are later excluded. I hope An interesting question occurs to me about funding that he will take into account the recommendations of levels per pupil across the country, which vary greatly. the special educational consortium about future decisions Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that variation so that he can make sure that the issue of exclusion does in comparing the costs of local independent schools? not have an undue impact on children with autism. Pupils in some parts of the country would have less New clause 1 would pay particular attention to schools resource going to them than is currently the case in a with a history of educational underachievement, by London borough, for example, where they are very well which I mean achieving below the minimum national funded. floor standards for a number of years. It would give the Secretary of State the powers that he or she might Mr Field: I was doing the calculations without the require in such circumstances to intervene to support pupil premium, which is a terrifically important innovation. change and to provide educational opportunity to the I understand the difference between the marginal cost children in those areas. The new clause is not about in the north-west compared with going to Eton. I do passing comment on teachers; indeed, the teachers who not have any wish for those pupils to go to Eton, go to poorly performing schools are sometimes the although I have nothing against Eton or the education most inspired and capable teachers in the country. it produces. As I have said, this is a probing amendment; we hope 2.15 pm to bring back the new clause in another place. I hope The new clause is not about resources either. Too that the Minister understands that whatever we in often, when we look at educational underachievement Birkenhead decide—we have made no decisions about we think that throwing money at it will solve the problem, 1195 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1196 but often it does not tackle the problem directly. Indeed, might not be failing the local authority or certain it can hide the problem or provide an excuse for continuing teachers, but by heavens it is surely failing the children with underachievement while the benefit of the additional whom our educational system is supposed to be serving. resources comes into play. That is all very well when one Let me give an example that comes readily to mind: is looking at a five-year investment to do something as a the efforts in my constituency to establish a new academy, business, but the critical urgency is that every child gets the Kempston free school, in an area of educational only one chance at each year of their education. Every underachievement. I shall not use this opportunity to year of delay in overcoming educational underachievement talk specifically about the teachers or the actions of is a year lost to a whole cohort of children that will not particular teachers in those schools. They work extremely be recovered. In those circumstances—I will go on to hard to get improvement for the pupils, but over the explain how they arise—it would be a mistake for the past five years satisfactory results have not been achieved Secretary of State not to have the opportunity to intervene overall. What has the borough council done about that? to provide hope to that cohort. It has asked for more time. What have schools tried to My concern is with providing the opportunity for fast do? They are trying to do their best, but the results have action to be taken to remedy a legacy of educational not yet met the national minimum standards. underachievement, because, as we have rightly heard One teacher resigned his job, worked with local parents many times, educational underachievement compounds and wanted to take up the freedoms that this Government social separation. Hon. Members on both sides of the have permitted to establish a free school in his area. He House recognise that a good start to education in the had a passion for education and directed that passion at early years leads to better educational attainment in an area of economic and educational disadvantage. later years and greater chance of success in later life. That is what everyone who has a passion for education When educational achievement is combined with catchment should seek to support. The reaction of the local authority areas, the problem of social separation is compounded, was, essentially, to kick the scheme into the long grass, with housing stock and rental prices around underachieving pretend that it cared, go along with the process, make schools going down and with parents flocking to areas sure that it checked the boxes that the Government said where schools perform well. I see that happen in my it must check, but in reality to stifle and seek to eradicate constituency and my borough. That effect compounds the effort and initiative of those volunteers. the view taken by parents that particular schools are What was the reaction of the schools? They made bad. I do not know whether there is such a thing as a some good points. What would be the impact on their bad school or a good school—a school is a school—but budget? What would happen with falling rolls when we have a responsibility to ensure that parents do not children decided to go not to the existing schools but to have to make the terrible sacrifices that many make. the new school? Those are valid points and ones that I Some parents put enormous effort into getting their wanted to raise with the Secretary of State, but I needed child into a school other than the local, “bad” school a free school there to do it. It is far better for that and then they have to spend an hour or so driving their discussion about how best to allocate resources in areas child to that “good” school to avoid the other school. of educational underachievement to take place among That is precisely because we have this tyranny of catchment establishments than to maintain the line that continuing areas, which may be compounded despite the best efforts to put funds into a school that is failing is a sign of one’s of my right hon. and hon. Members on the Front Bench commitment to education, because it is not. to improve educational performance if they do not have more power to be more radical than they are providing Educational commitment is what motivated Mark for themselves in the Bill. Lehain and the parents and volunteers who supported the Kempston free school. They were inspired to help The Government have made substantial progress, children in their area, and they were stymied by a local particularly, as the right hon. Member for Birkenhead authority and by the efforts of local schools. They mentioned, with the significant advance of the pupil wanted a site. The local authority had plenty of sites premium. I would add to that the potential advance of that it could have made available. Did it welcome the free schools, which should be embraced on both sides of group with open arms? No. It did the minimum required the House as part of an effort to get our teachers to to ensure that it accommodated the Government’s process. address educational underachievement. If I have one Let us look at the other side. Whereas the local criticism of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State authority can pull its whole local bureaucracy full time it is that he listens too much to those who believe he is to the effort, and the educational establishment can use too radical in that area; there is plenty of scope for him its incumbency and the loyalty that parents naturally to be more radical. have to their school, regardless of its overall educational The problem that the new clause seeks to address is performance, what could the free school people draw the situation that arises when members of a local on? They could draw on their inspiration. They could community combine to frustrate those who would challenge quit their job to demonstrate their passion. They could the existing orthodoxy. However, it focuses only on get parents and others to say, “Yes, we really want to do areas where that orthodoxy is failing children by maintaining it,” but that was never going to be a match for the a standard of education that is below the national combined resources of the local authority and the local minimum accepted standard. In those circumstances, teaching establishment. which I know from my own area can persist, a local What was worse were the actions of our teaching authority may not take action with a school and the unions and the Anti Academies Alliance and its fellow school may have absolutely no interest in taking action travellers in the Local Schools Network, who will crush itself. The school will always seek to have more time and anyone who threatens the orthodoxy of our teaching the local authority will always want to maintain its establishment. It is a disgrace that those unions flood influence and control over the school. Such a system local meetings to make political points, rather than 1197 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1198 allowing local meetings, which are part of the consultation Bill should it be passed and receive Royal Assent. The process, truly to represent the interests of local parents problem to which I refer is particularly acute in a village and teachers. It is disgraceful that people will attack called Witham St Hughs in my constituency. others for their passion when they have an inspiration I wonder, therefore, whether the charge which my to provide education for children, albeit not through the hon. Friend perhaps rightly levels at the Front Bench established ways, but through a free school. Those could be levelled at his own new clause. He might like to people are teachers and care about education just as consider whether it should go much wider, in giving the much as any other teacher. Why is it legitimate for those Secretary of State the power not just to disapply the teachers to be attacked for trying to find an alternative provisions where there is underachievement, but to way to serve their local community? disapply the provisions that stand in the way of the In all these efforts, when the only thing that the creation of an academy in other circumstances as well. people who wished to set up these schools in areas of He may wish to consider amending his new clause in educational underachievement have is their own inspiration due course. That rather depends, I suspect, on whether and voluntary effort, I say they need extra help from a he presses it to a Division today. Secretary of State who can say, “Here we have the I should like to hear from the Minister that there is to evidence. You have had years of educational be some action from the Government on the problem underachievement. Here we see that you are not fulfilling that I have outlined, which affects rural communities your overall mission to educate people in your area. and villages in rural constituencies such as mine, as it You have an opportunity to do so by providing another does in Witham St Hughs. The lack of sufficient primary academy and I, the Secretary of State, will intervene, places is a problem that the Government will need to disapply all the things that stand in the way and all the address, not necessarily because their immediate predecessor tools that can be used to stop people making that did not address it, but because successive Governments advance, and provide that lifeline of support so that across a number of decades have failed to recognise the children in areas of educational underachievement will needs of village communities in constituencies such as have fresh hope and opportunity.” mine. That is what parents in such areas expect from a Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): I, too, had Conservative Government and a coalition Government. not intended to speak, but I would like to do so in That is what they were hoping for when they got the defence of new clause 1, tabled by my hon. Friend the pupil premium. That is what they are looking to the Bill Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller). He is very radical to provide—an extension of power from the Secretary when it comes to education and desperately keen to of State to local areas. I hope the Minister will listen ensure, as am I and many Members across the House, and seek to embrace that vision as he moves forward. In that children from deprived backgrounds get the education a few years we will look back on this period, with the that they deserve and that would allow them to be current Secretary of State, as a great opportunity to educated out of poverty. He is concerned that that is not help many who are suffering severe economic and happening because we are not being radical enough in educational disadvantage. New clause 1 seeks to achieve providing the Secretary of State with powers to help that. those schools that are trying to move forward and improve the benefits they offer. Stephen Phillips: I am grateful for the opportunity to address, albeit briefly, new clause 1 to which my hon. 2.30 pm Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) has New clause 1 suggests that local authorities have just spoken. I was not intending to do so and I therefore some powers to take on the task of getting rid of some hesitated to rise. The charge that he levels at the Secretary of the poorer head teachers or dealing with those of State is essentially that my right hon. Friend is not aspects in schools that cause the problems, but that they being sufficiently radical. May I respectfully say that, if seem unwilling to use them. My constituency is in a that charge is right, the new clause that my hon. Friend neighbouring authority to that of my hon. Friend. In moves is itself not sufficiently radical? that authority, more than half of the secondary schools The new clause identifies only one set of have applied for academy status, but none of the schools circumstances—the circumstances of underachievement—in in my constituency has applied because, apart from one, which the Secretary of State should have the ability to they are all rated as satisfactory. Our concern is that all disapply the provisions of the Bill in order to ensure those schools should have the benefits and opportunities that an academy comes into being. I have little doubt that come with academy status and that allow them to that there are many other circumstances in which it take forward the aspirations of poorer children. might equally be advocated that the Secretary of State I support the new clause and believe that we must be should intervene to disapply provisions of the Bill in radical. The Government are pushing huge sums of order to ensure that an academy comes into being. I money at helping poorer children. I support the Bill have in mind an issue that has recently arisen in my because in my constituency the pupil premium will be constituency which affects many other rural constituencies worth nearly £1 million this year for poorer children. I where there are village primary schools with insufficient believe that my hon. Friend is being radical enough in places to meet the demand of local parents in the probing the Government to ensure that poorer children village, with the effect that children from villages sometimes in more deprived areas have the opportunity to benefit have to travel a great distance for their primary education, from academy schooling. often at the cost of being separated from their peers with whom they spend the remainder of their time. One Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): I wish to speak might seek to argue that the Secretary of State should to new clause 1, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member equally have the right to disapply the provisions of the for Bedford (Richard Fuller), which I wholly support. It 1199 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1200

[Mr Sam Gyimah] Secretary of State’s power to intervene in underperforming schools. We are strengthening those powers to ensure suggests that we should be able to disapply the provisions that we can take the necessary action to invite an of the Bill, especially when we are trying to help very effective academy sponsor to transform a school where disadvantaged children. I think that all Government children are receiving an unacceptably low standard of Members, including those who were involved in Committee, education and the governing body and the local authority agree that that is ultimately our purpose, although we are reluctant to intervene. may not always agree on the means. My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford mentioned The arguments that my hon. Friend has put forward exclusions, special educational needs and, in particular, are right. On being radical, I think that the Government children with autism. I welcome his support for the can go forward in helping poor and disadvantaged Green Paper on special educational needs and disability. children. Currently, there are more than 1,000 failing He is right to raise those issues. I, along with officials, schools across the country. Less than 35% of children recently met the Special Educational Consortium to get five GCSEs at grades A* to C, including in English discuss the matter. I look forward to continued discussion and maths. Less than 55% of primary school children with it on the Bill as it progresses through the House reach the expected level at key stage 2. All we can and another place. He rightly highlighted the fact that say—most Government Members agree—is that too even with the Bill’s new provisions, many schools will many children are being let down. still not be eligible for intervention, despite performing If we are serious about reforming our education below the minimum floor standard. Ofsted’s inspection system so that it has a bright future—and most politicians judgments in recent years have not always paid sufficient talk about that in their election literature when they say attention to the quality of teaching when identifying that they are committed to education—we have to do it schools that require special measures or a notice to now. We have the opportunity and we must take it now. improve. I welcome the fact that the changes to the That is why I urge the Minister in my new clause 13 to inspection framework proposed by Ofsted start to address consider disapplying the Transfer of Undertakings that issue. (Protection of Employment) Regulations in the case of I share my hon. Friend’s concern that no excuses failing schools. Some might consider that an unusual should be made for low standards. He may be right that new clause. I firmly believe in employment rights, for the current proposals do not go far enough in allowing people who work in the private sector as much as for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to intervene people who work in the public sector, but when a school swiftly in schools that perform below the minimum fails, it is often because the teachers have let the children floor standard. However, we need to be sure that, in any down. We should consider whether all those terms and changes we make, there are appropriate safeguards in conditions should be transferred across. place for schools to ensure that the Secretary of State is I wish to make two further points. First, we must not left open to legal challenge that might continue to consider the cost involved in transferring across all the frustrate the conversion process. terms and conditions, which can add up to about £100,000 for the local authority and the Government. Secondly, On new clauses 1 and 13, I sympathise with my hon. we must also consider the bureaucracy involved in Friends’ desire to ensure that unnecessary hurdles do doing that. Of course we have to go through a consultation not get in the way of the efficient transformation of process, unless that has been agreed with all the staff poorly performing schools. However, there is a need to before the academy opens, but I think that it is important ensure appropriate safeguards. We have been convinced that we give the Secretary of State the power to disapply by the weight of opinion across both Houses that those provisions when they think it necessary to do so. appropriate local consultation should inform conversion That is because there is only one objective here: we want to academy status. The ability to disapply such requirements to ensure that our duty is not to the teachers who may when converting poorly performing schools, as proposed have failed the students, but primarily to the children. in the new clause 1, is not something we are seeking. For This is a probing new clause, and I urge the Minister to those reasons I cannot accept the new clause. consider it seriously. Mr Gibb: I will speak fist to new clause 1, tabled by Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard (Con): Does the Minister not recognise some of the Fuller), and new clause 13, tabled by my hon. Friend concerns felt by Government Members? One of the the Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), who both fundamental problems is that often there are not articulate served, alongside my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage parents who can make the difference in those failing (Stephen McPartland), on the Bill Committee. I welcome schools and provide the safeguard to ensure that children’s the strong support for the Government’s expansion of need are properly looked after. It is for that reason the academies programme that lies behind both new alone that we would like some additional powers in the clauses. There are now more than 650 academies, more hands of the Secretary of State, along the lines of those than two thirds of which have opened since September outlined new clause 1. 2010, and that is equivalent to more than two every working day. I am proud that the coalition has achieved Mr Gibb: My hon. Friend makes an important point, this pace of expansion in its first year in office. I believe and I am not unsympathetic to the views he expresses. I that it is vital to ensure that the benefits of academy know how concerned he is about educational standards, status are used to address underperformance in our and the Government are committed to raising standards education system. throughout the system, particularly in inner-city districts, As my hon. Friends will know from their scrutiny in such as those he represents, where there are areas of Committee, the Bill includes measures to strengthen the deprivation that are not well served by schools. 1201 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1202

We believe, however, that we do have significant I gave assurances in Committee that the rights of powers. It is always open to argument that more are staff when transferring from the employment of a needed, but we believe that there are sufficient powers, maintained school to an academy trust are protected by and the Department, headed by my right hon. Friend TUPE, but the application of TUPE at conversion does the Secretary of State, is determined to raise standards not mean that staffing cannot be reviewed and restructured and is actively seeking sponsors to take over the leadership after conversion—just as it can be before. We are clear of schools that do not provide the necessary quality of about the need for school work force reform to improve education. The pressure, help and assistance coming the quality of teaching. We want to make it easier for from the Department means that people will be able to schools to tackle poor performance by helping make proposals—more articulately than I am being at underperforming teachers to address their professional the moment—locally, but that does not mean that, at weaknesses or by enabling head teachers to deal more the same time as an academy proposal is going forward, quickly with entrenched underperformance. there should not be a consultation process enabling all I listened carefully to my hon. Friend’s argument, local people to put their views forward. and he will have some support for the views that he expresses. Richard Fuller: Does my hon. Friend agree that a consultation process that requires and comprises a 2.45 pm public meeting for local parents, but which the teaching unions, the Anti Academies Alliance and the Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Local Schools Network flood with activists who have I share the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the little or, in many cases, no adherence to the community Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah) about the need in which that school would be located, is hardly public to put the interests of the children first, but, as he said consultation? that it was a probing new clause, it would not be right to weaken the protection of those who teach and work in Mr Gibb: My hon. Friend makes an important point. some of our toughest and most challenging schools. We There is no requirement to conduct a consultation in a have to send out the message—I think my hon. Friend specified way, and we have been careful not to introduce the Minister has just done so—that, although we will one, because every consultation should be adapted to protect and support the rights of the people who work local circumstances. We want to be flexible about how in the toughest schools, we will ensure that we have a local consultation takes place and, before reaching a performance management framework that challenges decision, the Secretary of State will look realistically at underperformance, and we will not be afraid to restructure the local extent of that consultation in order to ensure when putting new measures in place. that it has been genuine. Mr Gibb: My hon. Friend is right, and the Government I share the view of my hon. Friend that, when meetings are committed to protecting those employment rights. are packed with political activists who are not necessarily even from the local community but there to deliver their The underperformance of teachers is not necessarily own ideological message, that is not genuine consultation. the only reason why schools underperform; there is a When a meeting is held and the overwhelming opinion whole host of reasons, one of which is that schools are expressed by those people gives the impression of one burdened by bureaucracy. One key measure that we view, the Secretary of State will look through that to see implemented in the opening months of the Administration what the genuine view is of local people in the community. was a reduction in the amount of bureaucracy and He wants to ensure that the consultation has been prescription that has been heaped on teachers over the extensive and has included local people, so, when local past 10 years. With those few comments, I hope that my people have in effect been excluded by such activity, he hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey will not press will take that into account before reaching a decision. his probing new clause any further. There is a need for appropriate safeguards, however, I turn to the new clause tabled by the right hon. and we have been persuaded by the weight of opinion Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field). We welcome the across both Houses to ensure that there is proper many initiatives in the independent schools sector, assisted consultation. by the schools themselves through bursaries and New clause 13, in the name of my hon. Friend the scholarships and by many charities, to support children Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), explores the who would not otherwise be able to receive an independent possibility of disapplying the TUPE regulations in schools school education. The right hon. Gentleman may have that are eligible for intervention and that the Secretary seen the article in The Times today by Lord Adonis and of State wishes to transform through conversion to Anthony Seldon, the headmaster of Wellington college, academy status. My hon. Friend will know that the urging the independent sector to sponsor more academies, Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) and we share the views of those two contributors. That Regulations 2006, which the new clause seeks to disapply, should be happening, and we want to see more independent were implemented in response to the European acquired schools sponsoring academies, but the Government’s rights directive. In line with European legislation, they priority is to transform the state education system so set out the circumstances in which they must be applied, that all children are able to access a good-quality education preserving an employee’s statutory duty and contractual regardless of their background. employment rights through any transfer process. Our independent schools provide some of the best Disapplying those regulations for staff in converting education in the world, according to the OECD and schools would mean that such staff were unprotected other commentators, and we are keen to encourage when compared with other employees whose employment greater collaboration between the sectors so that best is transferred from the public sector. practice can be shared and schools can work more 1203 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1204

[Mr Gibb] Mr Frank Field: I make one last plea to the Minister. My constituents are not interested in a sectarian effectively together in the best interests of pupils and Government saying that they wish to raise standards in staff, but the right hon. Gentleman’s new clause is the state sector. My constituents wish to see standards neither desirable nor necessary. raised, and they are not concerned about which sector is An academy is free to further its education objectives used to achieve that objective. by using any funds it is able to raise through charitable donations or other similar sources, but academy funding Mr Gibb: I share that view. There is too much agreements regulate the way in which such schools can sectarianism in education. There should be more working use taxpayer funding. The general annual grant paid by between the independent sector and the state sector. I the Secretary of State can be spent by an academy only should like us to look at the methods that are used in on its normal running costs, and we have no intention the independent sector to see what can be learned from of changing that. That does not mean academies cannot it. Indeed, many of those in the independent sector tell buy in additional support from independent schools or me that they want to learn from what is happening in collaborate with them on joint provision, but the bulk some of the best schools in the state sector. There of state funding should rightly be used to raise educational should be greater movement between the two sectors, attainment and standards for the benefit of all pupils in and we are committed to that. We share the views of the academy. Lord Adonis and Anthony Seldon in the article that they jointly wrote for today’s edition of The Times. Mr Frank Field rose— Mr Mark Field: The Minister refers to principles. Mr Gibb: I give way to the right hon. Gentleman. Does he accept my view that an important academic and educational principle is that it is as important to Mr Field: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; look after the special educational needs of the most I am not too grateful for his comments. Supposing the gifted academic children as it is to look after the needs Government allowed a free vote on my new clause, does of those who are less gifted? The concern expressed by he think that we would run him close tonight? the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) in his new clause is that all too often the special educational Mr Gibb: I have no idea what the view of the House needs of some of the most gifted are ignored. would be. I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman would have huge support from Opposition Members, or Mr Gibb: My hon. Friend is right. We need to ensure that all elements of the coalition would necessarily that our comprehensive schools are genuinely catering support his proposal. I am not sure what the outcome for children of all abilities, and that those able children of such a vote would be, but I am not convinced that his are as well catered for in comprehensive schools as they proposal is the right thing on which to use scarce are in schools that specialise in children of that ability, taxpayers’ money. whether in the independent sector or the state sector. The point I was making to the right hon. Member for Stephen Phillips: The Minister has quite rightly stressed Birkenhead and to my hon. and learned Friend the the importance of using the funding for academies to Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen raise academic standards and to deliver the best education Phillips) is that the state sector has many examples of for all pupils in them, but the new clause that the right where such children are extremely well catered for, and hon. Gentleman seeks to introduce, at least in a probing that is why some schools in the state sector have very way, does not detract from that. It says that the most high levels of entrance to Oxbridge and to Russell able pupils should be able, at a marginal cost, to go to group universities. It is our view that if it can be done in what the Minister himself has said the OECD describes those schools, it can be done throughout the state as some of the best schools in the country. I am sure sector. We are determined to have a state education that the right hon. Gentleman will not press his new system that can deliver a high-quality education for clause, which is a probing measure, but will the Minister children of all abilities, including the children that my keep an open mind? At the moment, he has given no hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and principled reason why the proposed change should be Westminster (Mr Field) mentioned. rejected. The hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) asked about unnecessary referrals to alternative provision Mr Gibb: I have listened to my hon. and learned academies or to pupil referral units generally. There are Friend with great care, and he makes his case persuasively, three routes by which pupils can be referred to a PRU: but our principled view is that we want to see standards first, through section 19 of the Education Act 1996 on raised across the state sector. With 93% of pupils in our placements by local authorities; secondly, through education system attending schools in the state sector, section 100 of the Education and Inspections Act 2006, we want to ensure that every school in that sector caters which was introduced by the Government of whom he for pupils of the kind that he and the right hon. Member was a member, under a duty on schools and academies for Birkenhead are talking about. Mossbourne community to provide education for pupils on fixed-term exclusions academy in Hackney serves one of the most deprived of more than five days; and thirdly, through section parts of this country; 50% of its pupils qualify for free 29A of the Education Act 2002, under which a maintained school meals. More than 80%—I think nearer to 85%—of school can direct a pupil to be educated off-site for the students at that school achieve five or more GCSEs at purpose of improving behaviour. Each of those routes grades A* to C, including English and maths, and this carries its own safeguards, which will remain in place. year they have had 10 offers of Oxbridge places. How That will ensure that alternative provision academies many comprehensive schools of which hon. Members will provide for pupils who can most benefit from that are aware have had 10 Oxbridge places offered in one year? provision. 1205 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1206

My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): and North Hykeham talked about the need to ensure I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. that there are sufficient places in primary schools, particularly in rural areas. We recognise that the large Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it increase in the number of children of primary school will be convenient to discuss the following: age means that more schools are needed. We have made New clause 10—Fair access to education and training the funding available to meet that increase, and the academy free schools programme will add to that provision. ‘(1) EA 1996 is amended as follows. We are very well aware of these issues. The birth rate (2) In section 10 (General duty of the Secretary of State), at has been increasing since 2001, and we are absolutely the end insert “and ensure fair access to opportunity for determined to ensure that there are sufficient places. education and training.”.’. With those few comments, I commend new clause 20 New clause 22—Guidance on draft Regulations on to the House. pupil registration and school attendance codes Question put and agreed to. ‘The Secretary of State shall provide guidance to local New clause 20 accordingly read a Second time, and authorities for dealing with families who have chosen to home added to the Bill. educate their children prior to the implementation of the Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations and the New Clause 21 School Attendance and Absence codes.’.

CHARGES AT BOARDING ACADEMIES Amendment 40, in clause 4, page 9, line 26, at end ‘After section 10 of AA 2010 insert— add “10A Charges at boarding Academies ‘The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament an annual (1) This section applies where— report on the numbers of students at all schools in England and Wales subject to these powers including— (a) a registered pupil at an Academy is provided with board and lodging at the Academy, and (a) details as to whether these pupils have identified special (b) the local authority for the pupil’s area is satisfied that educational needs or additional learning needs, either condition A or condition B is met. (b) the numbers of times these powers have been exercised, (2) Condition A is that education suitable to the pupil’s age, (c) the previous and current status of their schooling ability and aptitude, and to any special educational needs the provision, pupil may have, cannot otherwise be provided for the pupil. (3) Condition B is that payment of the full amount of the (d) whether their exclusion was referred to a review panel, charges in respect of the board and lodging would involve and financial hardship to the pupil’s parent. (e) where known the outcome of any review panel action (4) If the authority is satisfied that condition A is met, the including any financial adjustment of the schools authority must pay the full amount of the charges in respect of budget share for a funding period incurred by schools the board and lodging to the proprietor of the Academy. as a direct consequence of the exclusion.’. (5) If the authority is satisfied that condition B is met, the Amendment 9, in clause 34, page 33, line 4, at end authority must pay to the proprietor of the Academy so much of insert— the charges in respect of the board and lodging as, in the opinion of the authority, is needed to avoid financial hardship to the ‘(1A) In section 84 (Code for school admissions) in pupil’s parent. subsection (2) after “other matters”, insert “which ensure fair access to opportunity for education”.’. (6) The proprietor of the Academy must remit the charges that would otherwise be payable by the pupil’s parent, to the extent Amendment 10, page 33, line 5, leave out subsection (2). that it receives a payment from the local authority in respect of Amendment 13, page 33, line 14, leave out subsection (3) those charges under subsection (4) or (5).”’.—(Mr Gibb.) and insert— Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill. ‘(3) For section 88J (changes to admission arrangements by schools adjudicator) substitute— Mr Frank Field: On a point of order, Mr Deputy “88J Implementation of decisions by adjudicator Speaker. I am not pressing my new clause, even though the Minister could have had his speech written for him (1) This section applies where the adjudicator has made a by old Labour, which I think will be noted. I wish for decision (‘the primary decision’)— the proceedings to go forward as expeditiously as possible. (a) under section 88H(4) on whether to uphold an objection to admission arrangements, or Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): As amusing as that may be, it is not a point of order. (b) under section 88I(4)(b) or (5)(b) on whether admission arrangements conform with the requirements relating New Clause 2 to admissions. (2) If the admission authority has not amended its admission ADMISSIONS POLICY OF INDEPENDENT SCHOOLS OPTING arrangements within a period of 14 days of being notified of the FOR ACADEMY STATUS primary decision, the local authority for the area in which the ‘(1) Section 6 of the Academies Act 2010 (effect of Academy school is situated may direct appropriate changes to any aspect of order) is amended as follows. the admission arrangements in consequence of the primary decision. (2) In subsection (4) (definition of “selective school”), after paragraph (b), insert— (3) Following the amendment of the admission arrangements by the admission authority following a primary decision, the “, or local authority for the area, if it considers that the changes to the (c) it is an independent school with a selective admissions admission arrangements are not consistent with the primary policy converting to an Academy”.’.—(Mr Brady.) decision, may direct appropriate changes to any aspect of the Brought up, and read the First time. admission arrangements in consequence of the primary decision. 1207 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1208

[Mr Deputy Speaker] school, it would make it easier for some of the best independent schools in the country to choose to adopt (4) An admission authority which is subject to a direction academy status, thereby opening their doors to all children, under subsections (2) or (3) may ask the adjudicator to set aside regardless of their financial background and their parents’ the direction on the grounds that the changes to the admission ability to pay. arrangements contained in the local authority’s direction are not consistent with the primary decision.”.’. Andy Burnham: The hon. Gentleman just spoke about Amendment 11, in schedule 10, page 83, line 4, leave schools opening their doors to all children. Will he out paragraphs 1 to 3. confirm that under the new clause, those schools would maintain their selective admissions policies? Mr Brady: It is a great pleasure to have this opportunity to participate in this important debate, which has so far been excellent, with colleagues on both sides of the Mr Brady: Absolutely. The right hon. Gentleman is House making points that are focused on the important entirely correct. No new selective schools would be task of raising standards and extending opportunity created under the new clause. The country would have without too much ideology and dogma getting in the the same schools that it has at the moment, but those way. schools would be able to accept people regardless of parental means and the ability to pay. It would bring My new clause 2 is supported by 38 colleagues from more excellent schools into the state sector, satisfying both sides of the House—a very broad spectrum of the objective of the Minister. support that reflects the fact that it demonstrates basic common sense in moving forward the educational debate. This is not a theoretical situation. I first became It is modest, but it would do something quite important. interested in this area because many years ago, two It seeks to remove an anomaly that the Government independent schools in my constituency did precisely have themselves created, arising from the fact that in the this. They opted into the state sector, in those days as Academies Act 2010 they legislated to allow state grammar grant-maintained schools. St Ambrose college and schools to become academies without changing their Loreto grammar school, which are both Roman admissions status, thereby accepting the principle that it Catholic selective schools, were welcomed by a previous is possible to be an academy and a selective school. Conservative Government into the state sector, and were allowed to maintain their ethos and admissions The new clause would merely extend exactly the same rules. St Ambrose college is an excellent school, which arrangements to independent schools seeking to become educated three Members of this House, including my academies and retain their existing admissions hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian arrangements. It would address the point made by my Hinds). This could be called the St Ambrose and Loreto hon. Friend the Minister earlier when he referred to the new clause. vital importance of our excellent independent schools and excellent state schools working more closely together, Not only would the new clause restore the ability for breaking down the artificial divides between them and excellent independent schools to come into the state ensuring that we open up for as many children as sector in the way that they could under the previous possible access to what he describes as some of the best Conservative Government; it would end the unfortunate schools in the world, according to the OECD. state of affairs that has pertained since. Again, that is not a theoretical point. Some years ago, William Hulme’s New clause 2 makes an important amendment, even grammar school in Manchester became an academy, though all it would do is remove an anomaly, because it but under the previous Government it was forced to would send the clear message that what matters in abandon its selective admissions policy and become a education is providing quality and new opportunities, comprehensive school. It is still a good school, but and opening access to the very best schools without regrettably, it was required to change its ethos in a way dogma getting in the way. At a time when the Government that it had no desire to do. More worryingly, that and the Opposition are deeply concerned with raising process is continuing today. As the Minister knows, our performance on social mobility and ensuring that Batley grammar school is in the process of becoming an people, regardless of background, can progress in life academy. Shockingly, under the present Government, according to their talents and abilities, the new clause it, too, is being required to change its ethos and its would remove one of the impediments that stand in the admissions policy in a way that would not have been way. required had it been a state school transferring to academy status. 3pm I am aware of other independent schools that would I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead be interested in pursuing this route if the Minister and (Mr Field) is no longer in the Chamber, because I the Secretary of State were to open the door to them. listened with considerable interest and care to his That point is important. Typically, these are schools speech on new clause 19, which he tabled. It is possible that value their independence and their selective ethos, to agree with his new clause and mine, but I say to the but have no desire to charge fees that might deny access Minister that it is difficult to disagree with both new to some able boys and girls who would benefit from the clauses. New clause 19 would allow academies in the education that they offer. Frequently, like Batley grammar state sector to use some of the money available to them school, they are not in the most prosperous parts of the to buy a place in an independent school for the benefit country. This measure would clearly extend opportunity of a pupil to whom that education would be most to a significant number of children in less affluent parts suited. If that idea is not to the Minister’s tastes, my of the country. new clause takes the other side of the coin. Instead of allowing an academy to buy a place in an independent Mr Graham Stuart: Will my hon. Friend give way? 1209 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1210

Mr Brady: I happily give way to my hon. Friend, the system that the Government are building—a highly Chairman of the Select Committee. competitive free market—we see that it represents a real danger to the life chances of our children, particularly Mr Stuart: My hon. Friend paints a powerful picture. those with the least support. It is inspiring to imagine that schools that, because of Let us put the Government’s changes to admissions their economic circumstances, moved away from their in that wider context. First, in time, there could be more original foundation, which was to provide education for than 20,000 separate admissions authorities operating some of the poorest scholars in the land, will be able to in a free market, accountable only to the Secretary of return to doing that again. The pupil premium will give State and able to bypass local checks and balances. them the economic incentive to target children from the Secondly, on top of that free-for-all we will have the poorest families and provide them with high-quality polarising effect of the narrow, academic English education. That is a vision to fulfil the principle that the baccalaureate. In the competitive education market, Minister talked about of ensuring that all areas of schools will desperately try to raise their bac scores, and education work together to look after the needs of all we can see how the risk will emerge of admissions children, with priority being given to the poorest families. policies being constructed to support that attempt. Now Mr Brady: I am grateful to the Chairman of the is emphatically not the time to weaken the powers of Select Committee for his support. As he said, the new the schools adjudicator to rectify non-compliance with clause would simply remove an obstacle that stands in the admissions code. With the checks and balances the way of the noble ambition of some excellent schools gone, there is a real and present danger that there could that are deeply committed to educating children of be more unfairness in the system and that parents will whatever means. Many schools can do so because they find it harder to get fair access to good schools. have access to bursary funds that cover the fees for such Mr Gibb: Does the right hon. Gentleman support, pupils, but not all can. To give another example from then, our measure in the Bill to extend the right to my city, Manchester grammar school, which is a former complain to the schools adjudicator to parents of children direct grant grammar school, is a fantastic institution in academies? That right did not exist before. that had the ability to raise a large bursary fund, which allows it to operate its admissions in a needs-blind way. Andy Burnham: Yes, we do, but that is not the central Not all good independent schools can replicate that point. In making that move, the Minister is weakening because they do not all have as many successful and the overall powers of the Office of the Schools Adjudicator wealthy old boys. and taking away its teeth. We hear that he is also about To return to my central point, this is a modest measure to weaken the admissions code—I will come on to that that would correct an anomaly, but in doing so would in a moment. sweep away an obstacle that can only be considered My greatest fear is that in Gove’s world, less academic dogmatic. It is entirely in keeping with the existing children, those with less parental support and those policy of the coalition Government, who, in the Academies with special educational needs will be the biggest losers. Act 2010, accepted the principle that selective schools The Secretary of State is creating by the back door can be academies. The Minister is a passionate advocate what, as we have just heard, his own Back Benchers are for the academies programme. He has always made it today enticing him to create by the front door—an clear that opportunities should be opened and that elitist, two-tier system that is good for some children good schools, of whatever kind, should be encouraged. and some families, not all children and all families. We I have always welcomed that in our many constructive need safeguards for all parents, and I implore the House conversations. This simple measure would open the to vote to keep them. Otherwise, we will leave uncorrected door to more good schools accepting the principles that the real flaw that lies at the heart of the Government’s he has set out and accepting the hand of friendship to vision for the reform of public services. welcome them into the academies programme and the In education and in health, if the Government plan state sector. It would allow more children to enjoy a more freedom and autonomy for providers, it is absolutely high-quality education without the threat of fees having essential that the change is accompanied by a corresponding to be paid. I hope that he will accept the new clause in empowerment of the public and a greater ability for the that spirit. users of services to hold providers to account. If the Government do not increase people’s voice, they will Andy Burnham: Take two. I will speak to new clause 10 create a provider’s market, a free-for-all with an and amendments 9, 10, 11 and 13, which are in my accountability deficit. If primary care trusts or local name and those of my hon. Friends. Our main objection authorities are no longer there to ensure fairness for all, to the Bill is that it takes power away from parents and it is crucial that we keep and strengthen the mechanisms pupils, particularly at crucial moments in the education that protect the rights of patients and parents. journey. Decisions about admissions and exclusions can be life-changing for children, and giving parents the Mr Graham Stuart: Going back to the right hon. power to challenge them is an essential part of any fair Gentleman’s point about the English baccalaureate, school system. Over the past decade, improvements does he agree that we need an assessment and accountability have been made to ensure fair admissions in English framework that gives equal weight to the progress of schools, and the Bill will take those safeguards away. It every child? If he does—I hope that we can get consensus will severely weaken parents’ rights in respect of admissions between the Front Benchers on that—does he agree that at both local and national level, and it will limit their the current levers and pressures on schools provided by ability to seek redress both for their own children and the requirement of five good GCSEs do not deliver that for others who come after them. That would be bad in vision, and that Members on both sides of the House any event, but when we consider that weakening of need to work harder to create a system that gives equal accountability in the wider context of the education weight to the progress of every child? 1211 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1212

Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con) indicated assent. planning to go to university. Every Member owes that to those young people. Apprenticeships are part of the Mr Stuart: My hon. Friend, who is nodding, has answer, but as I said a moment ago, they are not all of helped champion that issue very effectively in the Education the answer. Sometimes we hear the Government talk Committee. only of kids on free school meals getting to Oxbridge, as though that were the only measure of the education Andy Burnham: The hon. Gentleman makes an important system in this country. I am afraid that in my view, that point. I agree with his emphasis on the needs of every shows the elitist approach to education that is coming child, and I further agree that the five A to C-grade through more and more from the Government. GCSEs measure had its imperfections. He might, then, Our new clause and amendments are intended to put agree with what I am about to say. power back in the hands of parents and fairness at the heart of the system at local and national level. First, 3.15 pm given that the Secretary of State is taking more than I believe that the English baccalaureate will be divisive 50 powers in the Bill to run almost every aspect of the in and of itself, because it has a narrow, academic focus schools system, we propose, in new clause 10, duties for and will encourage schools not to focus on young him to ensure fair access to education. people who have a more vocational aptitude. That is Secondly, amendments 10 and 11 would reinstate the essentially the problem with it. There is a prescriptive requirement for all local authorities to establish a local choice of subjects in the baccalaureate, and where is the admissions forum. Those forums are an important part evidence to justify that selection? Where is the creativity of ensuring parents’ involvement and local accountability. in the Government’s vision? Where is music, religious Parents have a right to be represented on them, and education or business studies, and why is Latin in there? parents’ groups can come to the meetings and make The Government have never satisfactorily answered representations on particular issues of concern. Parents those questions. My fear is that if the Government in all areas should have a guarantee that they will be create that divisive performance management tool and able to call on a local forum in their hour of need. apply it to a free-for-all in education, there could be some very worrying changes on the ground. That is the On that point, I say to the Minister of State, the hon. risk to which I am alerting Members today. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), that he missed the point in Committee. It is no help to The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong parents if the forums are optional. If there is to be a Learning (Mr John Hayes): How does the shadow Secretary postcode lottery, with some local authorities having of State reconcile his rather jaundiced view of the forums and others not, not all parents will have the Government’s commitment to vocational education with right to call on those local independent bodies if they our stated and funded commitment to boost the number need to. Moreover, voluntary forums would not have of apprenticeships for 16 to 18-year-olds? the same powers as the current ones, such as the power to object to the schools adjudicator. An independent Andy Burnham: That is not the full answer. If schools monitoring body in each local authority to ensure fair are being judged by the gold standard of specific GCSEs, admissions criteria and processes should be an entitlement does the hon. Gentleman not accept that he is creating a for all parents. real disincentive for schools to focus on the kids who It is also more efficient to deal locally with issues are not taking those subjects? I know that he cares involving local stakeholders, rather than to refer every about vocational education, and I look to him to give us contentious issue to the adjudicator. Indeed, the chief some more convincing answers that show that the adjudicator supports the retention of admissions forums, Government are committed to those young people. as he told the Education Committee. He said: “I believe…that admissions forums are good things. It commits Mr Graham Stuart: Will the right hon. Gentleman all admissions authorities in an area…to sit around a table and give way? talk over their problems.” That brings me to amendment 13, which would restore Andy Burnham: I want to make some progress, but the crucial ability of the schools adjudicator to seek maybe I will give way to the Chairman of the Education early rectification of non-compliance with the admissions Committee again later. code in admissions policies, working through local Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I authorities. The adjudicator is an important guarantor am sure my right hon. Friend is aware that the latest of fairness for parents. As he told the Education Committee, figures given to the Skills Commission only yesterday 92% of the complaints that he received last year came by a professor from Southampton university show that from parents. The Government have failed to make any 6% of kids in this country leaving school between case to support their changes beyond saying, “Trust the 16 and 18 get an apprenticeship, and 36% go into higher schools.” Well, the Opposition trust schools, but we also education. That leaves a darned large number of young know that the adjudicator must frequently step in to people not going to either of those destinations. I am correct non-compliance with the code. Indeed, the very quite fond of the Minister for Further Education, Skills fact that the adjudicator has that power focuses the and Lifelong Learning, but sometimes he uses the minds of schools and local authorities to ensure that apprenticeships commitment to hide a lack of activity policies are fair in the first place. The Government are in other areas. therefore undermining the office of the schools adjudicator in terms of helping parents when they need it. Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend puts his finger on it. We believe that the Bill weakens the adjudicator’s I said when I took on this job that I wanted more focus power, but that problem is further compounded by the on the 50% or more of young people who are not potential dilution of the admissions code. Yet again 1213 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1214 with this Secretary of State and his chaotic Department, about that, and I ask him to urge those on the Government the House finds itself in the unacceptable position of Front Bench to sort it out, before we drive real unfairness being asked to legislate on matters crucial to families in into our school system. this country without all the relevant information before Yes, we should have a system that measures every it. I have a simple question for the Minister of State: child’s progress in the important things such as maths where is the draft admissions code? Where is it? It is and English—that will be the bedrock of any system—but disgraceful that the House does not have access to that I fear that the English baccalaureate is a highly divisive code when it is being asked to vote on the Bill. tool that will set some children against others and give In Committee on 29 March, the Minister told the schools the wrong incentive. shadow schools Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), that the admissions Mr Gibb: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that code English, maths and double science are already compulsory “is certainly imminent and will certainly be available before many up to the age of 16, and that until 2004 a modern of the future stages of the passage of this Bill”––[Official Report, language was compulsory up to 16? Therefore, only Education Public Bill Committee, 29 March 2011; c. 770.] history or geography are added in the English Mr Deputy Speaker, is it acceptable that the Minister baccalaureate—and they are compulsory up to 14. What has not delivered on that promise? I put it to you that it is it about history or geography that he so opposes? is an affront to the House and to Parliament that the Minister has failed to honour a commitment that he Andy Burnham: That is utter nonsense from the Minister, gave in Committee. The code is highly relevant to who made, with his Secretary of State, great play of today’s debate, and it should be available to hon. Members. autonomy for schools and teachers when in opposition. They complained about top-down prescription from Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): My right hon. Friend the previous Labour Government, but will he accept puts his finger on the nub of the issue—the Minister that the English baccalaureate is far more prescriptive promised in Committee on 29 March that the admissions than anything we ever did? If so, how does he square code was imminent. We must reiterate the concerns of that with his previous statements? the schools adjudicator, because he saw the idea of simplifying the admissions code as a way of giving Mr Gibb: The English baccalaureate is not compulsory wriggle room to schools to use covert selection. That is or prescriptive. It is also not an accountability measure; a real concern for my constituents and parents in my the accountability measure remains five or more A to area. C GCSEs including English and Maths, and the floor standard is 35% of those in a school achieving that. Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is not a compulsory combination of GCSEs, but The Bill weakens the schools adjudicator and could one of many measures that our transparency agenda dilute the admissions code—although we cannot assert ensures will be put into the public domain. the latter as a fact, because we have only media reports to go on. It is a disgrace that the Minister has been Andy Burnham: As my hon. Friend the Member for unable to give that information to hon. Members, who Cardiff West says, this is a nudge with a loaded gun. Of are voting on life-and-death issues for their constituents: course schools will focus on the English baccalaureate! the question for parents is whether they can get the If he expects us to believe that that will not happen, he schools that they want. I put it to hon. Members that is taking us for mugs. The baccalaureate will obviously they will be doing a huge disservice to their constituents drive behaviour in our school system. The Ministers if they vote for a weakening of the admissions system know that that is what they are doing, but they are without knowing what is in the code, and the full extent trying to pretend that it will not happen. I am telling the of the Government’s intentions. Minister that it will. Mr Graham Stuart: I asked the right hon. Gentleman earlier whether he would support the principle of an Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): assessment and accountability framework giving equal Is my right hon. Friend aware that some schools, including weight to the progress of every child in our schools. some in my constituency, have already moved existing Does he support that? If we collectively introduce such year 10 pupils—generally the more able ones—off the a system, we would not need such massive bureaucratic subjects that they have chosen and on to the English machinery to try to stop artificial selection in schools, baccalaureate subjects, because they are worried about because there would no longer be an incentive to pursue the new accountability measure? such measures. Rather, the system would encourage schools to attract more children who come with the Andy Burnham: Where is student choice in this system? pupil premium, and we could have a more equitable What are the rights of children, particularly those who education system, along with the outstanding outcomes have creative flair? How does the system look after the that we all seek. interests of those who are good at music or drama? In some schools in my constituency, around 30% are taking Andy Burnham: I sympathise with the Chairman of the English baccalaureate. Ministers tell us that it is the Education Committee. I am reading into what he supported by parents, yet when given the choice, many says the impression that he fears the effect of the say, “This isn’t what we want for our children, because English baccalaureate on the proposed free-for-all system, it’s too prescriptive and doesn’t recognise the breadth of in which there is no power at local level to challenge experience that we want them to have.” We hear that what schools are doing, and in which the adjudicator music and RE teachers are being made redundant. It is does not have the teeth to rewrite admissions policies. I time for another U-turn by the ministerial team that is am sensing that the hon. Gentleman has real worries famous for them. 1215 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1216

Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman The Association of School and College Leaders said: says that the English baccalaureate is too prescriptive, “While we accept the limitations of the Local Authority and but moments earlier he said several times that there is a Admissions Forums we are concerned that there may now be a free-for-all. Which is it? void in policing admissions.” Barnardo’s said: Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The “As the Bill stands, it is likely that in the future there could be a debate may be straying into rather more general matters variety of admission arrangements within local areas—resulting than the new clauses and amendments before us. in selection and segregation.” These warnings could not be clearer. Andy Burnham: I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I have said before, the Secretary of State is in danger Ian Mearns: The schools Minister has reiterated that of collapsing under the weight of his own contradictions, the English baccalaureate will not be an accountability and the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) has measure. He trumpeted that in the Select Committee on just made that point. a number of occasions last week. I am terribly sorry but Let me return to the admissions code, which we have the response is one of complete and utter incredulity. I not seen. I hope the Minister will give the House an know what the press will say about the English baccalaureate apology this afternoon for failing to produce it. We hear within the context of the league tables. The headline that it will be slimmed down, and that it will allow writers will say, “Of course it will be an accountability founders of free schools to leapfrog local families to the measure. How can it be seen as anything else?” front of the queue for places—the so-called Toby Young clause. The Opposition can accept a simpler admissions Andy Burnham: We know that the measure was applied code, but we will not accept a weaker admissions code. retrospectively to schools, so the Government were The Government’s failure to produce the code leaves encouraging the media to see it as a performance- us asking one question: what are they trying to hide? management measure. It is so unfair to schools being That is a relevant question given that today we have sent out into this highly competitive environment to further evidence, from the hon. Member for Altrincham have their reputations so damaged, and to have not one and Sale West (Mr Brady), of the true Tory instincts on but two hands tied behind their backs. The Government education. His new clause 2 would allow independent have knocked the stuffing out of some schools that have schools that cross over to the state sector to continue worked so hard to improve in recent years, and it is selective admissions policies, as he confirmed to me, totally unacceptable. which means that formerly independent fee-paying schools Experts’ warnings about the admissions clauses could would be fully funded by the taxpayer, but would remain not be clearer. Children’s life chances are at stake here. exclusive schools selecting students on the basis of The Government have failed to convince the experts ability. I notice that 35 or more of his colleagues felt free that we can gamble with those life chances by weakening to put their names to this outrageous expansion of the admissions system. I intend therefore to press selection, presumably because they are being encouraged amendment 13 to a vote this evening. In the face of this by his own Whips and Front Benchers. free-for-all in education, it is vital that the rights of parents and children are protected, and that the House 3.30 pm does not sleepwalk today into a return to selection in At a Friends of Grammar Schools reception in our schools. Parliament last year, hosted by the hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State was asked for his view on whether his Mr Graham Stuart: It is a pleasure to take part in this free school movement could allow the expansion of debate, and to see so many faces from the Public Bill selection. He reportedly replied: Committee, as well as Select Committee members, including “My foot is hovering over the pedal; I’ll have to see what my the stellar four or five Labour Back Benchers under the co-driver Nick Clegg has to say”. Gallery there. Well, I think we know what the Deputy Prime Minister I want to discuss my new clause 22 on home education. will do: he will talk about being muscular, but then offer My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale no resistance whatsoever. Indeed, Tory voices today are West (Mr Brady) has made most of the key points crowing about the right-wing nature of the school reforms about his new clause 2. This is not about extending before the House. I urge Liberal Democrats to live up to selection in our schools; it is about taking existing their recent statements, particularly since Thursday, institutions—in many cases, institutions originally set and to implement the policy passed at last year’s Liberal up to serve some of the poorest in our communities—and Democrat conference. allowing them to serve those communities again. I must I urge Liberal Democrats, too, to listen to the independent confess to having been torn before deciding that supporting experts. When asked by my hon. Friend the Member for new clause 2 was appropriate, although there will be Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) in the Education Select Committee differences of opinion on both sides of the House—the whether he would make the changes to admissions set shadow Secretary of State failed to note that supporters out in the Bill, the schools adjudicator replied: of the new clause include Labour Members as well as “I wouldn’t, no. The only changes I would be introducing, as I Government Members. said to the Chair, is the extension of our role to take on academies and free schools. I don’t think that I would be taking out any of Stephen Twigg: The Select Committee Chair says that the admissions changes suggested in the Bill.” new clause 2 would not extend selection, but it would The Children’s Commissioner said: involve its extension within the state system. Does he “Reduced accountability in the admissions system also risks not acknowledge that a number of independent schools, increasing the social segregation in schools”. including Belvedere school in Liverpool, have entered 1217 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1218 the state system and been willing and happy as a condition another excuse for local authorities to misinform parents to become local comprehensive schools? Is that not a and tell them that the local authority would decide on better approach, if we are to widen opportunities for as the quality of the education provided by parents and many young people as possible? that it should sit in judgment on whether they were fit and proper people to educate their children. That would Mr Stuart: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. be an entire reversal of the long-standing legal settlement Where the institution feels that it best serves its mission in this country, which says that it is the parents’ duty to to improve education by becoming a comprehensive, it educate their child. Most parents choose to delegate would be free to do so. If I have read it correctly, which I that to the state, through state schools, and some to hope that I have, the proposal does not insist that private schools, with a small number choosing to carry schools should retain their existing selection or non-selection it out themselves. It is a fundamental basis of education criteria, so the tone of what the hon. Gentleman has in this country that the parent remains the No. 1 decider said is perhaps unfair. of how their child is educated. In case that response was just overly paranoid home My new clause 22 would impose an obligation on the educators who felt that properly caring local authorities Secretary of State to issue guidance to local authorities would be asking them impertinent questions or who on how they handle families who seek to home educate had misread or misunderstood what they were doing or their children ahead of changes in the regulations. saying, I can share with the House the fruits of my However, my new clause has been overtaken by events. labour last night, which I spent on the internet looking The Government have let me know today that they have at various local authority websites. A colleague texted decided not to go ahead with those regulations, which me at 6 o’clock to say that we were going to be let go would have changed the rules on what happens when a unusually early, and that a night of fun and frolics parent deregisters their child from a school in order to could lie ahead. I had to say, “No, my fun will involve home educate. looking at local authority websites.”Tameside metropolitan The Badman review, which many hon. Members will borough council’s elective home education guidelines remember, under the previous Government recommended say: a 20-day period in which a child’s name should remain “It is up to parents to show the local education authority that on a school’s register, so that if the parents had been they have a programme of work in place that is helping their child pushed into home education because of failures on the to develop according to his/her age, ability and aptitude and any part of the school or local authority to meet the needs special educational needs he/she may have.” of their child, they would not automatically lose a place But it is not up to parents to justify that to the local at school, but would have time to think through the authority; all too often, it is the local authority that has implications of home education. let down that family and those children through its That recommendation by the Badman inquiry was failure to provide proper education. The local authority accepted by the then Select Committee on Children, should be the servant of the family; the family should Schools and Families. I always thought that that was not have to answer to the needs of the local authority. right, because it seemed to place no restrictions on the rights of parents and families, but seemed to restrict the Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I absolutely agree that it is rights of schools and local authorities, which, according important for parents to be involved and in control of to Badman, if I recollect correctly, were in some cases decisions about their own children, but I am dismayed using home education to push away children whose that I have heard very little from the hon. Gentleman needs they were failing to meet, finding it easier to push about the children themselves. The reason that we have that responsibility on to parents who did not really wish frameworks is not to create unnecessary bureaucracy to pursue it. but to make absolutely certain that we are protecting On the face of it, that recommendation seemed our children and ensuring the best outcome for them. I reasonable, which I am sure is why the Government would like to hear his response to that point, because came forward with proposals to implement it, having before coming to the House, I worked for many years seen that both Badman and the Select Committee supported with children, some of whom had suffered the most it. However, it was not recognised that the Government’s appalling neglect and abuse at home, and for whom the formal consultation on the Badman recommendations state was a real lifeline. had shown that, far from being uncontroversial, the proposal had attracted opposition from 75% of those Mr Stuart: The hon. Lady makes some fair points. who responded, with only 13% agreeing. Why would Certainly the right of the child is central, but I believe that be the case? Why would families be concerned that the parent is the best protector of that child’s needs. about having the power to return their children to Of course, the local authority has a role in intervening school within 20 days, with no restriction whatever on when there is problem. However, fewer than half the their freedoms and no delay forced on the start of their children in this country get five good GCSEs as a result home education? The answer lies in the behaviour of of compulsory state schooling for 11 years, so the state local authorities. is hardly in a position to lecture parents who make a Many home educators expressed alarm and horror at massive sacrifice to find ways of educating their children the proposal when it came out recently—those home themselves. Furthermore, according to all the evidence educators were not formally consulted by the Government, that I have seen, there is no suggestion that home-educating because the proposal was supposedly uncontroversial— parents—although they might be rather radical and act because, they said, it would lead to bullying and intimidation in ways that would not fit with my idea of how to of parents who had decided to home educate. Those educate a child—do a worse job for their children home educators said that the proposal would serve as educationally than the state; quite the opposite, in fact. 1219 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1220

[Mr Graham Stuart] hon. Gentleman is trying to turn the issue into one of welfare against education, but that was not the line that It is interesting that, although Badman selectively we took. quoted evidence from New Zealand, he failed to mention that, just before he produced his report, New Zealand Mr Stuart: The hon. Gentleman is entitled to his scrapped the registration guidelines that formed a central views on how current regulation should be changed. part of the report. That, after all, was what the Badman report and our Select Committee report were all about. Mr Sheerman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? What I am discussing today—I do not want to take up much more time—is the current law, which is clear, Mr Stuart: Before I give way to the former Chair of although it is not properly represented by many local the Select Committee, I must deal with the point on authorities. I will not go through all the legal aspects, which I disagree most with the hon. Member for Wigan but I will mention the 2007 guidelines on elective home (Lisa Nandy). She has done what Badman did, and education for local authorities, which were produced by what the former Secretary of State did under the previous the Department for Children, Schools and Families in Government, which is to conflate child abuse with 2007. It is still available on the departmental website, home education. Education and welfare are two separate subject only to the need for an update to take into things. Contrary to what Graham Badman stated in his account changes in the rules governing children missing report, and failed to substantiate in the Select Committee, from education. The report stated: there is no evidence that home-educated children are “Local authorities have no statutory duties in relation to more subject to abuse than children in general. When monitoring the quality of home education on a routine basis.” there is a risk, local authorities have all due powers to intervene, and so they should. When such evidence If there is no evidence that education by home educators arises, the authorities can and should go in to ensure the is inferior to that provided by the state, what is the role protection of the child. However, we cannot have the of the state? Apparently it is to stick its nose into suggestion that home-educating families are linked to a families that have often been let down by the same problem of abuse. Nothing could be further from the instruments of the state and impertinently to try to truth, and it is important to nail that fact. We must not impose exactly the same kind of regimented approach do as the previous Home Secretary did, which was to to education that failed for those children. That is why smear the reputation of home-educating families by the parents made the massive sacrifice of taking their suggesting that there is a problem, because there is no children out of school in the first place. evidence for that. We must defend freedom and a principle that is perhaps even more important than that, which is that Mr Sheerman: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman the law, as it stands, must be enforced. If the hon. means to do so, but he is being a little misleading about Member for Huddersfield wishes to campaign to get it what happened in the Select Committee inquiry, in changed and is successful in convincing this place, what which he failed to persuade the majority of the Committee he wants will then become the law. Local authorities of his views on this subject. Many of us on the Committee must honour and observe the law as it stands and not took a rather different view and wrote the majority overstate it because they happen to agree with the hon. report along those lines. What he gets wrong is the Gentleman. They cannot make the law up as they go balance. This is not about a balance between abusive along because they do not like the current settlement. parents doing dreadful things to children, on the one The current settlement is clear: local authorities have no hand, and the local authority letting them down, on the statutory duties in relation to monitoring the quality of other. Rather, we found a lot of evidence to show that home education. what was supposed to be home education actually did I have already dealt with Tameside, so let me touch not amount to very much at all. quickly on Barnsley.Its elective home education information leaflet says that Mr Stuart: The hon. Gentleman is incorrect on the “the law allows parents to educate their children at home instead central point. Although the report did not take the of sending them to school, if they fulfil certain conditions.” same form as it would have done if I had written it That is subtly done. I am not sure whether it is strictly alone, the central point about the need for registration inaccurate, but it is suggestive enough to make it sound and licensing of families that want to educate their own as though the council decides whether those conditions children was rejected by the Select Committee—it was are fulfilled. It goes on to make it clear that that is Labour-dominated and chaired so ably by him. That precisely its conclusion: point was rejected, and the report said no to the central recommendation of Badman. The previous Government “Barnsley MBC will need to be satisfied”— still pursued that recommendation, but it was—eventually in other words, the council will need to be satisfied— and rightly—thrown out by Parliament before the last “that a child is receiving suitable education at home, and the election. Assessor”— these people are even called assessors; who do they 3.45 pm think they are?— Mr Sheerman: Of course we rejected that element of “will ask to meet with the family in order to talk to the parents policy, and quite rightly, but that is not the case that the and to look at examples of work and learning.” hon. Gentleman is making. It is a serious concern if we That is beyond the law. I want the Minister to confirm do not know what kind of syllabus or stimulus children that he will make sure that local authorities no longer will get in the home education environment. Children’s produce misinformation like that and use it in order to education, and not just their welfare, is their right. The abuse their power over families. 1221 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1222

Sheffield provides another example. Parents there are As far as I can tell from one evening spent looking told: at their websites, council after council is entirely “You must show that the opportunities being provided are misrepresenting the legal position, and I hope that the helping your child to learn and that development is taking place Minister will put that right. appropriate to their age, ability and aptitude.” It is fair enough for parents to have a duty to provide Ian Mearns: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? suitable education and meet those requirements, but local authorities have no right to interpose themselves Mr Stuart: I am aware that I have been speaking for and decide that that is not happening. If they have too long already, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. reason to believe that suitable education is not being provided, they have a duty to challenge, but only in that Ian Mearns: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. event. They do not have the right routinely to monitor For a short time I thought that I was in the back of a and interfere. bus in Helsinki. Sheffield city council continues: There is a problem with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. If a child becomes unwell or is injured at the “The Children Service Authority (CSA) is responsible for hands of parents or other relatives, the focus of attention ensuring that the arrangements provide a suitable education for is often not on the family but on the director of children’s your child.” services in the local borough. Will the hon. Gentleman That is not true. reflect on that? Will he also reflect on the rights of the “When you have given the CSA a plan stating your ideas an child who, despite the wishes of their own parents, may appropriately qualified” or may not receive a good level of education at the —unlike you— hands of those parents? I know that the hon. Gentleman inhabits a middle-class, or possibly upper-middle-class, “Senior Inclusion Officer (SIO) will arrange an initial home ideal in which his own children will be extremely well visit and make a preliminary assessment” catered for, but that is not always the case. As policy —in your home— makers, we must provide for the rights of every child in “of the education provision the child is receiving.” the country, no matter what their circumstances. It is disgraceful. Mr Stuart: I have a great deal of respect for the hon. South Gloucestershire council is advertising for someone Gentleman, who is a distinguished member of the Select who will provide Committee and who brings years of experience of education “information, support and challenge to parents…The service is to it, so I hesitate to say what I am about to say. responsible for assessing the suitability of the education provided However, he is suggesting, as a Labour Member of to children educated at home”. Parliament, that working-class families involved in home The Lancashire local authority, in one of the most education should be treated with more suspicion than egregious examples, states: those in better-off areas, that they are not to be trusted with the education of their children, and that inspectors “Lancashire Officers will take the lead on this because they and assessors and all those other people with acronyms have the responsibility to ensure the safety of all children as well should be wandering into their homes, because of—my as to monitor the quality of education received by children educated at home.” God—what they might do to their children. I have given a great deal of thought to these issues. That is a nice one, neatly conflating the issues of safety There are many armchair theorists—I met many of and home education. No one has yet arrived at my them when we were debating the Badman review—who house during the summer holidays just to check up on have not looked at the data and the research, who have the safety of my children, who are, after all, spending not tried to meet home-educating families to discuss months at home with me. Who knows what my wife and their problems and who have not met local authority I might get up to, or what the younger or older sister officers, who deal with difficult cases such as home- might do? Who knows what visiting relatives might do? educating households where children are abused and What we need are visitors from the local authority, just are not given an education. There are real difficulties to make sure. I do not want people such as the director and challenges, but we cannot deal with them from an of children’s services in my local authority to lose a armchair. If the hon. Gentleman follows that advice, I moment’s sleep because they feel that they are not hope that he will come round to my point of view that pursuing every possibility of intervention to cover their the current law is appropriate but should be enforced, own backsides and telling me how I should run things and that we cannot allow local authorities to continue in my own home. That is precisely what the local to abuse their position and bully parents. authority suggests should be done in the case of home- educating parents, who deserve its intervention no more I congratulate the Minister on having listened. He than the rest of us. The document continues: listened carefully to families and to representations from Members both during the passage of the Children, “Thus, when a practitioner or professional becomes aware that Schools and Families Act 2010 and since then. He a child is being educated at home, they should use local information sharing arrangements to help the Lancashire Authority to fulfil listened to representations on the 20-day rule, of which both its duty to be confident” I myself was in favour until I listened to the arguments and was able to follow the evidence and look at the links —so it has a duty to be confident now— to the consultation and the response, which I either did “of the well-being of the child and its duty to assure the quality of not know about or had forgotten. the education provided.” There is a strong message here. We must listen to That, too, is not true. these families, and we must support and respect them. 1223 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1224

[Mr Graham Stuart] have the teeth to intervene? It was because it was almost impossible to call him in. That had to happen in a very We must have challenge that is appropriate, but we must special way and very few people understood how to get not allow those in power to abuse that power and him involved. Very often we would find that a group of overstep the mark. schools knew that one or two schools were ignoring the code—everybody knew it. There are communities of Mr Sheerman: I do not quite know how to follow that schools, and I sometimes think that this Government speech. The hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness like to forget how important that is in an area. (Mr Stuart) was a very good member of the former Schools are not all little citadels that do not want Select Committee, which I chaired. He was always an anything to do with each other; they co-operate, meet excellent contributor, but he always got the issue under and share ideas. They share a great deal when the local discussion out of proportion. There has been a full education system is working well. People knew that Select Committee report, and I hope that people will some schools were breaking all the rules and not taking read that as well as pay attention to the hon. Gentleman’s any notice of the code, but they were too nice to do speech today, at one stage of which I thought the men in anything about it. People were nice about heads and white coats might be coming. acted in a collegiate way. When the Committee was looking into this matter, I All I want to say on this group of amendments is that got the feeling that the hon. Gentleman was rather if anyone rolls back the admissions code from being a taken over by the home educators. Home educators are fair code to which people have to pay attention, and if very good when they are good, but there is evidence, in we weaken the link so that the schools adjudicator the Badman inquiry and elsewhere, that there are all cannot get involved, make an inquiry and put things sorts of people who use home education because they right, we will take a dramatic step backwards in the do not want to send their children to school yet do not education of this country. want to be prosecuted. Home education is a right, but if people take up that right they must also accept that they Dan Rogerson: I am pleased that Labour Members have a responsibility to offer the children in question a have raised some of these issues, because it is right that coherent and stimulating educational programme, and I we explore them in detail and in depth. We began to do believe that local authorities have the right to check on that in Committee and it is right that we continue the that, in the most sensitive way possible. I therefore hope process. Given the time available today, I am sure that people make a balanced judgment of his new clause 22. those in another place will continue the exploration. The previous Select Committee spent a lot of time on It is important for us, as legislators, to examine what these matters. One of the great victories for those of us the Government are trying to do, which is free up who work on Committee reports is someone taking schools to get on with providing the best education that notice of what they say. That is wonderful, although they can. At the risk of boring those who were present normally there is about a two-year time lag before at the discussions, I can tell the House that we had an notice is taken. I think our report on admissions policy extensive debate in Committee about the level of trust was one of our best, with recommendations such as among different members of the Committee for those giving teeth to the schools adjudicator post and making involved in education, be it head teachers or teachers, sure that the code of admissions is obligatory and and about the extent to which the state or local authorities schools do not merely have to take note of it. ought to step in and not trust them to exercise the When we conducted our inquiry, I was amazed to powers and freedoms available to them. discover that really nice people—really nice heads and We have to examine the evidence. I absolutely accept educators—would bend every rule to get the selection that some of the charities to which the right hon. process that suited their school. That was the case even Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) referred have concerns for head teachers who looked as though they came from and have discussed potential scenarios. However, we are central casting and seemed to conform to the stereotype dealing with hypothetical situations and although I of the good, confident head teacher. I remember asking very much respect what the former Chair of the Select one particular lady, “How many looked-after children Committee had to say— do you have at your school?” “None”, she replied. I then asked, “How many children with special needs?” Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Will the hon. She said: “Very few.” My next question was: “How Gentleman give way? many children on free school meals?” We found that the school did not have any children in that category. I Dan Rogerson: Gladly. therefore asked whether or not the school had taken notice of the code, to which she said, “Yes, we took note Pat Glass: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who of it.” That is all anyone had to do; that is why the code was a fellow member of the Public Bill Committee. I was not working. Our Committee recommended that if can remember saying to the Secretary of State that he we were to have a code, people should have to take would get the benefit of my experience and that at the notice of it, and if they did not, the schools adjudicator end of the six weeks of the Public Bill Committee he could say, “Come on! There is a code and you should would be sick to death of the benefit of my experience. I obey it.” do not accept that these are theoretical cases. I have 25 years’ experience in education, many of them in dealing with admissions. Time and again, very good 4pm head teachers—nice people—did things that I thought, It took some time—about two years—before the then and which parents thought, were completely unacceptable. Government made the code obligatory and gave the They did so because they were driven down the route of adjudicator teeth. Why did the schools adjudicator not targets, obtaining a certain numbers of GCSEs and so 1225 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1226 on. One hon. Member on the Government Benches said tabled by the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale that good people can do bad things and that does West (Mr Brady). I accept that he speaks a great deal happen. It is our most vulnerable children—children about issues arising in areas of the country that have a with special educational needs, looked-after children selective system and that he feels passionately about and children on free school meals—who will suffer and that. I should possibly have discussed this with my wife their parents who will lose out if this code is simplified. before I mentioned it, because she was educated early on in a selective system in Kent and later moved to Dan Rogerson: The point that the right hon. Member Cornwall. When she was in Kent, she was not in a for Leigh raised is that we do not have the code in front grammar school, and in Cornwall she was in the of us, and so the hon. Lady is raising the issues that she comprehensive system. She went on to get her A-levels, fears may result. We will have to wait and see the code qualified to become a teacher and has taught very and examine it then. effectively. I question whether, if she had remained in the selective set-up—again, this is hypothetical—she Mr Sheerman: My hon. Friend the Member for North would have had the encouragement and support to go West Durham (Pat Glass) was actually making the on and become a teacher. I have some questions about point that she thought she heard the hon. Gentleman the effectiveness of the selective system for all pupils, say that this was theoretical. May I disclose a secret to although some prosper very well within it. him? I was the parliamentary church warden here for I welcome the Government’s commitment not to seven years and I am a lay canon at Wakefield and what expand selection and so I hope that those on the Front amazed me in the evidence was that Church schools— Bench will resist the hon. Gentleman’s new clause. As schools that I thought would have been bending over far as I am concerned, it is a way of bringing in more backwards to look after the poorest children and those selective schools funded by the state. The point I wanted from deprived backgrounds—were the best at excluding to make when Opposition Members were seeking to those children. I am saying that as someone who is talk about their ideological purity is that that new relatively active in the Church. clause is signed by some Members from the party of the Dan Rogerson: I welcome that contribution and the right hon. Member for Leigh but by no one from my hon. Gentleman has been very forthright in raising party. the issues that he has mentioned. I am sorry to see that Kevin Brennan: I can understand why the hon. Gentleman the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) feels that he is required to support measures in the has had some misfortune in hurting her arm and I am coalition agreement, but where in the coalition agreement pleased, of course, that it has not restricted her ability does it say that the Government will weaken and water to be present and to put forward her views, which she down the powers of the schools adjudicator and make does forthrightly and in a well-informed way on all fair admissions less available to children from all sorts education issues. What I was trying to say in response to of backgrounds? Why on earth does he not show some her is that the key to what the Government are trying to muscular liberalism and stand up for those people? do, not just with the admissions code but with some of the bodies and partnerships in which schools have hitherto Dan Rogerson: I am delighted that this concept of been forced to participate, which we have discussed muscular liberalism has come back. I am sure that we before, will be to trust schools to take decisions. We will will not hear it very often from Opposition Members! I still have a schools adjudicator and we will still have a look forward to its being raised again and again. code that will cover such matters. The question is where we should strike the balance. The Opposition clearly Mr Iain Wright: Flabby liberalism. feel that the Government are getting it wrong, but I want to see the code. It is unfortunate that we did not Dan Rogerson: That is a personal remark—I resemble have it before this debate, but we will be able to examine that remark. it when it comes. I shall give the Government the benefit As I said in an intervention on the right hon. Member of the doubt that we are striking the right balance. for Birkenhead (Mr Field), there are matters across government that go beyond the coalition agreement, Andy Burnham: I am disappointed that the hon. and decisions have to be taken about where the balance Gentleman is giving the Government the benefit of the should be struck. From my point of view, the issue is doubt and I am sorry to hear him sound like a spokesman whether we stay true to the principle that both parties for the Government today. Let me ask him a specific have articulated about looking at what is constraining question: on admissions, does he think that the Bill as it schools and trying to set them free to move forward, stands is consistent with the policy passed at last year’s while also looking after particular groups of people Liberal Democrat conference? who might be vulnerable if schools do not operate in the spirit of the code and what the Government seek to Dan Rogerson: A number of issues in the policy were achieve. passed at the last conference. As a keen student of what goes on at the Liberal Democrat conference, the right Mr Graham Stuart: Going back to an earlier point, hon. Gentleman might perhaps have heard the speech I this is all about the incentives that apply to schools. The made there and will have been interested to hear what head teachers at the Church schools that the hon. we had to say. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) mentioned The question for me on a range of issues concerns are not bad, but people respond to the incentives they where the balance is struck. I am happy, as I say, to give are given. Although I am not positive about all the the Government the benefit of the doubt. However, on moves the Government are making—I have doubts the question of sticking to key principles, I have a about the English baccalaureate—things are moving personal philosophical disagreement with the new clause forward with the measurement of pupil premium and 1227 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1228

[Mr Graham Stuart] educational needs, particularly in the light of the—I do not think that muscular is the right word, so I shall say children on free school meals. If we can move to a pre-gym—Green Paper on SEN. I particularly want to system that better rewards and reflects in the accountability discuss the amendments that would help us to ensure measures for schools the performance of every child, we that there are some protections for such children. will not need to have this suspicion about every head The amendment is about not just entrance to school, teacher. Heads have responded in the way they have but exit from school. Many of those working with because of the incentives that were created by the children with special educational needs are gravely previous Government, which led to this large, unwieldy concerned that the changes introduced in the Bill will be system. [Interruption.] I should be fair: I am talking disastrous for those young people as they are pushed about successive Governments. We need to come up out of the mainstream sector, lost to our systems of with a measure collectively that will improve that: then accountability and end up the worse for it. It is worth we will not need a schools adjudicator, because schools looking at the numbers of children involved before I will simply have a mission to educate their local children move to what the amendment might offer and the and will be supported and rewarded for doing a good questions that I would like the Minister to answer in his job for all of them. response. Dan Rogerson: I welcome that intervention from the We know that 6,500 pupils were permanently excluded Chair of the Select Committee on Education, which last year, and that 300,000 children have faced fixed-term will be providing more evidence over the next few years exclusions from secondary schools, a further 39,000 from as we continue this debate. He makes an important primary schools and 15,000 from special schools. That point about the incentives that have pushed head teachers is a huge number of children facing exclusion under the into operating in a particular way that was not envisaged current system. Many of us have deep fears about the when targets and regimes were set up. As the hon. incentives in the new system. I take it that Ministers feel Member for North West Durham said, good people that they can trust professionals not to abuse the system, occasionally do things that are less good or bad. Why but Opposition Members consider it important to ensure do they do that if they are essentially good people who that there are checks and balances; otherwise the number want to look after the educational opportunities of all of exclusions will dramatically increase. those in the community they serve? It is because incentives are acting on them and pressing them down a particular 4.15 pm course of action. We need to tackle those issues. Meg Munn: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is in Damian Hinds: Church schools have come up two or the Government’s interest to follow the proposals in the three times now and there seems to be some assumption amendment? We want the system to work. I believe that it is endemic in denominational schools, which sincerely that Ministers are honourable gentlemen who means predominantly Catholic and Anglican schools, want it to work. The amendment offers a way of checking somehow to try to get around the code. Is the hon. that the policies and procedures that they are pursuing Gentleman aware that when the chief schools adjudicator lead to better outcomes for a group of children about came before the Select Committee, he accepted—indeed, whom we are all concerned. Although I understand the volunteered—that problems in Church schools had been Minister’s admirable desire to trust professionals, education greatly exaggerated in the media coverage of his most is ultimately about children, and if we are not on the recent report? side of the most vulnerable children, we are not doing our job. Dan Rogerson: It is important to base things on evidence. I went to a Church primary school and my Stella Creasy: My hon. Friend is exactly right. The two elder children go to that school. In an area such as amendment is about implementation. How do we make Cornwall, which is not one of the most diverse culturally, sure that as the new policies are introduced, there are I welcome the fact that because it is a Catholic school it not unintended consequences, or perhaps even intended is attended by Polish, Portuguese and Filipino children, consequences, that we will have to deal with further so it has quite an inclusive and diverse mix in what is a down the line? fairly white or monocultural area. I say monocultural, The evidence shows clearly that a large percentage of because we could otherwise get into an English-Cornish the children who are excluded from schools have special debate. Certainly, in my area there are not the opportunities educational needs—87% of children excluded from primary to engage with as diverse a population as in other parts schools and 60% of children excluded from secondary of the country. However, I am straying a little far from schools have identified special educational needs. A the amendments, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I shall conclude. significant number of those children have attention I hope that the Government will resist the new clause deficit hyperactivity disorder, autism and mental health tabled by the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale issues. Many do not receive the special educational West, because they have a commitment not to expand needs provision that would help to keep them in mainstream selection and in my view his new clause would allow the schooling. For example, a number of children have to expansion of selection. wait more than a year to access a mental health counsellor. Clearly, that impacts on schools’ ability to cope with Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I rise to those young people. speak in support of amendment 40. I speak also on The amendment has been tabled today because of the behalf of several of my hon. Friends who believe the concern that the Bill will create disincentives for schools Bill should not pass without some extremely important to deal with those young people and instead, encourage debate on its implications for children with special schools to exclude them and so pass them on to somebody 1229 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1230 else to deal with, rather than taking responsibility for The amendment also tries to draw on some of the their educational needs. All of us acknowledge that the work that is needed for understanding how the policy way in which children with special educational needs might affect school budgets. Although I hope that it are supported in the education system should improve. would be an unintended consequence of the proposals, That is not an issue of contention between parties. The we should consider what might happen if schools are question is how we do that. found to have been misusing those powers. The Minister In Committee some of us expressed severe reservations finds it hard to contemplate any misuse of those powers, about considering the Bill without the Green Paper on but were that to happen, it would obviously cause special educational needs being available to compare problems. and contrast. The Green Paper was published while we Ministers were at pains in Committee to say that were in Committee, and we are grateful that that was schools would suffer a financial adjustment if schools not at 4.55 pm on a Friday, but it raised more questions adjudicators found that an exclusion had been conducted than it answered about how children with special wrongly—those of us in the Opposition who like to call educational needs will fare under this Government. a spade a spade would call that a fine. The amendment would encourage the Government to monitor that. As a Kevin Brennan: Perhaps my hon. Friend remembers member of the Public Accounts Committee, I am deeply that I asked the Minister when the Green Paper would concerned that there might be severe consequences both be published. He said that it was imminent, and it was for schools in the administration of the financial published the next day.However, he said that the publication adjustments, or fines, and for us and the public purse, in of the admissions code was imminent, and we still have trying to compare what happens to those young people. not seen it. The amendment would enable us to track that. We know the different costs of provision. For example, Stella Creasy: I am always aware of what we might it costs an additional £15,000 to send a child to a pupil call the cleansing effect of shadow Ministers on the referral unit or short-stay school, and an additional Departments of State when it comes to revealing £50,000 to send them to a specialist residential unit. information, statistics, Green Papers and, we hope, the There are huge consequences for the public purse of admissions code. I hope Ministers will continue to listen failing to deal earlier with children who have emotional to the pleas from the Opposition. We need the admissions and behavioural difficulties and allowing a situation to code in order to understand what will happen. I fear get to the stage where schools exclude them and they go that at this stage the irrigation will not be as successful to pupil referral units or for specialist provision. Ensuring as it could be. that the use of those powers and their financial consequences are monitored would be extremely beneficial I agree with the Green Paper when it refers to the to all concerned in trying to understand whether the difficulties that many parents experience in accessing policies have provided value for money. support for children with special educational needs. It says that the system is inherently frustrating and The Government also need to address the real concern confrontational. However, setting the Green Paper against about the removal of the relationship between schools the proposals in the Bill, we can see where some of the and local authorities, which have traditionally monitored challenges may lie. We know that we are dealing with a what happens to those young people. I hope that the group of young people who desperately need support to Minister, when he responds, will address how we will remain in education, and we know that that makes a ensure that those children go on to alternative provision. massive difference to their life chances in the future. In Committee, he was very clear that every young Between half and three quarters of children between person who was excluded would of course remain in the ages of four and 18 who are excluded from school some form of provision, but we have no monitoring have significant literacy and numeracy difficulties. It is process to ensure that that will happen. We have no way incredibly likely that those problems will be compounded of knowing that those kinds of provision will be made, when they are excluded, so ensuring that exclusion is especially when the relationships between the local the last option and that those children are supported authorities and schools is broken. A child who behaves into appropriate provision is vital to turning that situation so badly that they are excluded from school clearly has around. difficulties that need to be supported. The Minister has suggested that schools might intervene The Minister claimed that the Bill will create a stronger earlier, but one of our deep concerns is that the Bill’s incentive to intervene early to support children with proposals will create disincentives for schools to do so. behavioural difficulties, but again we are left with no The amendment has been tabled to encourage Ministers information about how those processes might take place. to take a proactive approach to dealing with the We have no comfort of knowing what will happen next consequences of this legislation for that group of pupils for those children who behave badly, will need that and perhaps put on the record how they will do so. support and perhaps should be excluded from a school. I have already mentioned my concerns about how the proposals might link with the Green Paper, which mentions Ian Mearns: I am very taken with what my hon. early intervention and partnerships a great deal. Members Friend is saying and wonder how the Minister will give who were on the Bill Committee will be aware of my the reassurances she is seeking given that the Bill eradicates concern that other clauses in the Bill that unhook the the duty on schools to co-operate on a local basis and relationships between local authorities and schools will look after their youngsters with behavioural problems. make it much harder for those partnerships to be put The current duty to co-operate means that there is at together and for schools to build the kind of relationships least a safety net for youngsters, but that will vanish that they need to be able to support young people. under these proposals. 1231 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1232

Stella Creasy: My hon. Friend raises an important That is an important point, which I recognise and want point. One of the key issues for me is that in Committee to flag up. I will rehearse it in the next group of the Minister talked about schools triggering an assessment amendments, which I have looked at, have much sympathy of behaviour, but there is no clarity about how that with and have spoken to Ministers about, but I hope process might take place. I hope that he will address that the Government will be sympathetic to moving that point when he responds. from the current definition of the Secretary of State’s I have a great fear about asking head teachers to duty to a wider one. If the Government are clear that we become educational psychologists, but that is the implication have to have better and fairer access to opportunity for of putting that power in the hands of schools and education and training, they should recognise that it making them responsible for trying to work out what begins in schools, not in sixth-form and further education provision is best for the children without the support to colleges. It starts earlier. be able to deliver it. No one is suggesting that head I have not engaged in the technical debate, and I teachers and teachers are not committed to their pupils, guess that there is one concern about the wording of the but in a system in which they will face only a small new clause, but I hope that by the time the Bill reaches financial adjustment of £4,000, in contrast to the cost the Lords we will have been able to seek consensus and of supporting a child with emotional and behavioural agreement. The lawyer in me anticipates that, if we difficulties and providing special educational needs, it is introduce a duty to ensure fair access, we will probably easy to see where the incentives to act might be. precipitate people going to court, challenging a decision All Opposition Members ask for is some comfort, and looking for judicial review. After the Bill has been assurance and accountability for the use of those new through its stages here and before the other House deals powers, so that we can ensure that young people are not with it, however, we might consider whether the Secretary left in the lurch, not left unable to access the appropriate of State will accept a duty at least to promote fair access educational systems that they need, not abandoned by to opportunity for education and training, moving from schools that are desperate to meet other targets and not the current duty to one that ensures that the fair access abandoned by the professionals from whom they need point is understood throughout the whole education help because those relationships no longer exist. sector in England, including in schools. The Bill makes putting in place support for children with special educational needs much less likely, not Kevin Brennan: What the right hon. Gentleman says more likely. There might be some wonderful ambitions is welcome, but is he content to allow for the weakening in the Green Paper, but I am deeply concerned that this of the schools adjudicator’s power, which is what this Bill means that they will be harder to realise. All of us Bill brings about? I cannot imagine that a predecessor will be the worse for that, as we see young people in our Liberal Democrat Front Bencher, someone like Phil communities struggle to get the educational opportunities Willis, would ever have been content with what the that they need early in life, and are not able to progress Government are doing in this Bill. later in life. Simon Hughes: In my introduction I was careful to The new clause and its proposed report would shine a say that I wanted to limit my comments on this group to spotlight—a powerful phrase that my hon. Friend the that one issue, not to get into the debate that I have Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) used in heard across the Floor of the House today, but let me Committee, and on which I hope the Minister has make two points, while trying not to avoid the question. reflected—on those young people, and on what is being First, the Government’s policy is a combination of ours done to help them to achieve in life. I hope that the and the Tories, so not everything— Minister will do more than he did in Committee, when he simply said, “Well, we’ll continue to publish individual datasets,” and bridge the gap between what happens to Kevin Brennan: It’s not in the agreement. the data that local authorities previously collected, the data on exclusions and the data on special educational Simon Hughes: I understand that the policy is not needs. He should commit to bringing to the House part of the coalition agreement, but secondly, if there those regular updates, so that we might all be confident are such matters—my hon. Friend the Member for that young people in our communities are being given North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) leads for us on these the support that they need to achieve. We will all be things—whereby on reflection, or having listened to the better for that if he does. whole debate that I have heard today, people think that the adjudicator’s responsibilities are not sufficient, there Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) is a robust team of colleagues at the other end of the (LD): I am really here to take part in the debate on the building, and I am sure that the matter will be returned next group of amendments, but I want to refer to one to. issue in this group in my capacity as the advocate for May I add a postscript? I chair the school governing access, because an access issue arises. body of a Church of England primary school and I am New clause 10, in the name of the right hon. Member a trustee of a Church of England secondary school. for Leigh (Andy Burnham), the shadow Secretary of Clearly, there is always an opportunity for abuse of the State, addresses the obligations in the Education Act 1996. system if people are not really vigilant and held to their The 1996 Act says: principles. We need to ensure—the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) made the point well—that “The Secretary of State shall promote the education of the people of England and Wales,” those who are potentially the most disadvantaged do not find themselves accidentally or intentionally excluded and the new clause suggests that it be amended to say, because the inclusion of everybody works to the “and ensure fair access to opportunity for education and training.” disadvantage of other school targets, aspirations, goals, 1233 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1234 figures and statistics. Eternal vigilance is our duty. We Mr Brady: I would hate good people involved in need to ensure that the Bill is robust, and I am sure that education to waste their time, so I want to be clear further conversations will continue. about whether it is worth good independent selective schools having the conversations that the Minister has generously offered with himself and the Secretary of 4.30 pm State. Do they have open minds on whether those schools might be able to join the academies sector in Mr Gibb: Several amendments from right hon. and future without changing their ethos? hon. Members relate to fair access to schools, and I propose briefly to take them in turn. Mr Gibb: I really cannot add anything to what I have New clause 2 would allow independent schools to said. We will talk to good independent schools, selective enter the state-funded sector while remaining academically or otherwise, that wish to come into the state sector. selective. The independent sector provides high-quality However, the admissions code is there, it is clear, the education for its pupils. We recognise this, as does the legal position is clear, and there are no proposals to OECD; it is recognised throughout the country and, change that position. indeed, throughout the world. That is why the Academies Act 2010 enables good independent schools to become Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): The Minister free schools so that more pupils can benefit from attending said that there was an objection to increasing the number them. Independent schools wishing to become free schools of selective schools. Of course, the proposals of my will need to adopt non-selective admission arrangements hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West that comply with the school admissions code. They (Mr Brady) would not increase the number of selective may, of course, remain selective within the independent schools, but merely transfer them from the independent sector. sector to the state sector, meaning that more people I understand the sentiments and motivation behind from a wide variety of backgrounds would have the the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member opportunity to go to them. I would have thought that for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady). He wants that was wholly admirable. The two most popular schools more good school places to be available in the state in my area are grammar schools in Reading. Parents sector; that is the driving force behind the Government’s free want to get their children into those schools, but some school policy. As he said, independent schools came of those who do not get in are extremely bright and into the state sector under the previous Government, able, and they get to elite universities from comprehensives, not least Belvedere school in Liverpool and William despite the creaming of the grammars. That is a perfectly Hulme’s grammar school in Manchester. However, I stable and good system, and I cannot understand why suspect that selection is not as paramount an issue for the Minister does not back it. independent schools coming into the state sector as he believes. I give him this assurance: the Secretary of Mr Gibb: I cannot say more than I have said. We gave State and I will talk to any independent school, whether a commitment that we would not increase the number selective or otherwise, about moving into the state sector of selective schools in the state sector. If we were to do so that we can increase the number of good school as my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale places. Selective independent schools are required to West and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham open up their admissions if they come into the state (Mr Redwood) wished, it would contravene that sector, and we have no plans to change that. I would commitment, which we gave before the election. expect that my hon. Friend, in his principled way, will continue to argue his case as effectively as he has today. Kevin Brennan: In answer to the question from the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady), Mr Brady: I assure my hon. Friend that I will continue surely such schools would be wasting their time, given to argue the case in a principled way if I can. I take it that the coalition agreement says that all new academies from his remarks that there is no principled objection to will have “an inclusive admissions policy”. the existence of selective academies, because several of the new academies are selective schools, and no principled Mr Gibb: No, they would not be wasting their time, objection to independent schools becoming academies. because I am not convinced that these issues are deterring He has kindly said that he and the Secretary of State good independent selective schools from coming into will be prepared to meet the heads of selective independent the state sector. That is certainly not the case with schools that may wish to become academies. Perhaps he Batley grammar school, and I am sure that it is not the could help me a little further by indicating that he sees case for other good independent schools, selective or no immovable reason why in future the Department otherwise, that wish to come into the state sector. might not change its policy and allow good schools New clause 10 would amend the general duty on the from the independent sector to become academies, opening Secretary of State to promote the education of the up places to children regardless of the ability to pay, people of England and Wales to include a duty to even if they are selective schools. “ensure fair access to opportunity for education and training.” Equity coupled with excellence is at the heart of the Mr Gibb: I thought that I had made the position schools White Paper, the Green Paper on special educational clear. There are no plans to change that approach. We needs and this Bill. Fair access is about more than made it clear before the election that there will be no admissions; it is about ensuring that every school is increase in the number of selective schools, and that worthy of parents’ consideration, that every school is remains the policy. I am sure that my hon. Friend will able to raise standards free from red tape, and that every continue to argue his case very effectively. school supports the most vulnerable children. Everything 1235 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1236

[Mr Gibb] admission forums and one or two of the powers and duties of the schools adjudicator. There is nothing in it we are doing in the Department is geared to support about the admissions code, it just happens that at the that aim: the pupil premium allows funding to follow same time as we are bringing the Bill through, we are disadvantaged pupils, we are spending £800 million in revising the code. I would have liked to bring it before 2011-12 to meet the pressure for places at good schools, the Committee, but the work on it is extensive. As I said, and our behaviour reforms are intended to make every we are ensuring that it is right before it is published for classroom a safe place to learn. consultation. It should be absolutely clear that we do not disagree with the thrust of new clause 10. Of course it is the job Andy Burnham: That is just not an acceptable answer. of all those involved in education to ensure that all The Minister gave a commitment that the code would children have the opportunities they need to succeed, be ready for the remaining stages of the Bill’s passage, but local authorities already have that duty, and that is and he has not delivered on that commitment. I ask him where the duty is most appropriate. Local authorities again: why has he been unable to publish a code for the have the duty to secure the provision of education for House to consider? What is holding it up? people in their area, and they have the levers to achieve that. Localism is about ensuring that powers are given Mr Gibb: It is not right yet. When it is right, it will be at the right level, and it is right that duties go alongside published. I want to ensure that the code is right so that that. Fair access is and should be driven locally, not by a it is ready for consultation. Whitehall-focused duty. I therefore urge hon. Members not to press new clause 10. Andy Burnham: And we don’t get any chance to look at it? Pat Glass: Surely localism is about supporting parents and their rights. Anything that weakens parents’ rights, Mr Gibb: Well, frankly, it does not affect the issues in such as not allowing them access to the adjudicator or the Bill. There is one clause related to admissions, which the ombudsman, is not about raising standards in schools. is about admission forums and the adjudicator, and as I will explain, the changes that it makes are not as radical Mr Gibb: I think the hon. Lady and, in particular, the as the right hon. Gentleman claimed in his speech. shadow Secretary of State overstate their case. We are Again, I thought he overstated his case. not just extending the right to access the adjudicator Although I agree with the aim behind amendment 9, to parents of children attending academies, who can I cannot agree to it. Admissions policies must be consulted now complain to the adjudicator about admissions upon with the local community, and every state-funded arrangements, we are also changing the rules on which school and academy in an area signs up to the fair parents and members of the public can complain to the access protocols to ensure that the most vulnerable adjudicator about a school’s admissions arrangements. children are placed without delay. Failing local resolution, We are saying that any parent from anywhere can make objection can be made to the independent schools such a complaint. We are widening the ability of parents adjudicator for a binding decision that must be complied and members of the public to complain to the adjudicator. with. I therefore feel that we must resist the amendment, which would add little to the practice of admissions or I turn to amendment 9. Although, again, I agree with the accountability that is already in place. the aim of ensuring fair access, I do not believe that the amendment is necessary. The admissions code is entirely I turn to amendments 10 and 11, on admission forums. about fairness, which is why we have an admissions As I said in Committee, local authorities and the system for schools. I can assure hon. Members that in communities that they serve must be allowed to make our work to revise the admissions code and make it their own decisions on what systems will work for them. more straightforward, we have not in any way removed It cannot be right to assume a need in every area, and at the focus on fairness. considerable cost. Last year, a mere 14 out of 152 admission forums wrote a report, seven of which were too late to Andy Burnham: The Minister has just mentioned the be considered by the adjudicator. Only five objections work to change the admissions code. Will he tell us out of the 151 received by the adjudicator were made by today why he has not fulfilled his commitment to produce a forum, and four of those were from one particularly the code in advance of this debate? Will he be honest active forum. about the reason for the delay? Is it because there is a Where they are valued, those admission forums can row going on about the content of the admissions code, continue. Seeking to impose a one-size-fits-all system, so he cannot bring the issue to a conclusion? as proposed in the Opposition amendment, is the wrong approach. In taking the line that he has taken, the right Mr Gibb: As I said in Committee, the revision of the hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has overstated admissions and appeals codes is a huge undertaking, his case about what the Government are doing in the and we need to ensure that we produce an admissions Bill. All we are doing is making admission forums system that is fit for purpose and puts trust back in non-mandatory. They can of course continue where schools and head teachers. We are determined to get the they are wanted. codes right, not just push them out quickly. We will consult on them shortly, and they will free schools of 4.45 pm the burden and bureaucracy of the current system. Pat Glass: However much the Minister values schools Sometimes I feel that the right hon. Gentleman overstates forums, they are the only mechanisms through which his case. If he looks at the Bill, he will see that there is parents have any input into their local admissions one clause about admissions, clause 34, and it relates to agreements. Surely it cannot be right that parents in one 1237 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1238 local authority have access to a forum when parents in and others. That is why adjudicators try to ensure that the neighbouring authority do not. That will create a their changes can be included when appropriate, and postcode lottery. The local authority can effectively cut not just immediately. out the parents whose needs are greatest by not having a forum. Surely that cannot be right. Pat Glass: Local authorities have 14 days in which to comply with the decision of a special educational needs tribunal. Therefore, why is it unreasonable for schools Mr Gibb: There is a philosophical difference between to have 14 days to comply with the decision of the the Government and Opposition. We do not believe schools adjudicator, who is also a statutory body? that the Whitehall-constructed approach, which means that things are identical throughout the country, is right Mr Gibb: The example that the hon. Lady gives about how to deal with anomalies that might occur. We applies to one individual, but an objection to admission think that a more localised approach is better. Of course, arrangements applies to an entire school, and therefore parents can object to admissions arrangements via many to a wider range of people, which means that consultation avenues. They can take part in the consultation or lodge is necessary before those changes are made. That is the an objection with the independent schools adjudicator, difference between the two examples. for example. In addition, as I said earlier, we are expanding There is something else wrong with Opposition Front parents’ right to object via the schools adjudicator to Benchers’ amendment 13. It would give the 152 local schools that are not within their area. That, rather than authorities a power to direct, but those local authorities the top-down, prescriptive, bureaucratic approach, is are themselves the admissions authorities for about the right approach. Those are very real problems, and 19,000 schools in England, and it cannot make sense to we want to address them. We want to ensure that give them the power to direct themselves, which in parents can comment on admissions arrangements and essence is what the amendment would do. Nor is the that those arrangements are fair, but we also want to amendment consistent with our general thrust to allow reduce bureaucratic burdens. schools the flexibility to put matters right themselves. On amendment 13, one perceived problem with making Adjudicator decisions carry the full weight of law, and admission forums non-mandatory is that concerns about any attempt to thwart them through undue delay risks admissions will go uninvestigated. However, that is not further legal challenge and possible direction from either true. In fact, admission forums never had a power to the Secretary of State or the courts. All admissions make decisions on admissions. That role remains with authorities, including academies and voluntary-aided the Office of the Schools Adjudicator, and the Bill will schools, must comply with binding decisions, and we extend his role so that in future, he can investigate and believe that exactly how they do so is best judged by the adjudicate on complaints about admissions at academies schools themselves. However, when they do so will be and free schools. The Bill also gives power to schools just as important in ensuring that we do not create and local authorities to put things right for themselves chaos in our admissions system. I believe that we have when the adjudicator judges that their admissions struck the right balance between national parameters arrangements are non-compliant. and local pragmatism, so I ask hon. Members not to press their amendments. Amendment 13 would provide for a wide-ranging local authority power of scrutiny and direction over I turn to amendment 40, in the name of the hon. admissions authorities following a binding decision by Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). She and, the adjudicator, and offer a mere two weeks’ grace in through an intervention, the hon. Member for Sheffield, which such authorities can act to comply with the Heeley (Meg Munn) explained that they were seeking to decision. When I first read that proposal, which was ensure that the impact of the changes made by the Bill tabled by Opposition Front Benchers, I was in two to the exclusions process were clearly understood. I minds about it. On the one hand, I was reassured by agree that it is important to understand what is happening their acceptance of the principle of allowing schools the in schools on such an important issue, and as I set out in freedom to implement decisions—although they would Committee, extensive statistics have already been published have to do so within two weeks. On the other hand, the on the number of permanent and fixed-period exclusions, amendment completely misses the point about the purpose including for each local authority and ethnic group, as of that freedom. too have national and local authority level statistics on SEN exclusions, both statemented and non-statemented. I sought in Committee to reassure hon. Members In collecting information, however, it is important to that schools cannot simply ignore the decision of the eliminate the risk of revealing the identities of individual adjudicator: he is a statutory post holder, and his decisions children, and in some instances, numbers are likely to have the force of law. Schools must implement change be far too low to deliver the level of detail sought by the to comply with the adjudicator’s decision. Although at hon. Lady’s amendment. If there are fewer than five first glance a fortnight seems reasonable, on closer exclusions in a local authority area, the numbers are not examination it looks less reasonable. Admissions policies published. must be locally consulted on for at least eight weeks to We collect information on the review panels, and will allow all parties to consider proposals or amendments. continue to do so for the new panels, including on how Many changes subsequent to an adjudicator’s decision many cases are reviewed, the outcome of a panel’s can be swift and simple, but others take time, because decision and whether the pupil is reinstated by the they are inherently complex or because they seek to school. I can confirm that we will also have details of address coherently a number of issues. when an adjustment of a school’s budget share is directed. More often than not, the timing of decisions means However, I am happy to meet the hon. Lady to discuss that they cannot easily be adopted for the coming the precise data that she seeks to see whether we can admissions round without risking frustrating parents accommodate her request, bearing in mind the fact that 1239 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1240

[Mr Gibb] to school, and we have no desire to interfere with that right. The proposed change in the regulations was intended we have to ensure that we do not inadvertently publish to protect any children whose parents had reluctantly very small numbers, which could inadvertently reveal decided to home educate against their own better the identities of individual children. judgment—for example, those who would rather their child went to school, but who have concerns about the Stella Creasy: I gladly take up the Minister’s offer of school that they feel it has not addressed. That group is a meeting. But will he still put on the record a commitment not typical of the majority of home educators, who in to a qualitative review of what happens to young pupils my experience are determined, committed and passionate with special educational needs in the next 18 months, to people. Having considered the issue further and taken ensure that the exclusion powers are not used by schools into account the views of home educators and those of to bypass their commitments? Will he also clarify the my hon. Friend, I am not yet convinced that the proposed referral process? I asked him to clarify how young change is the best way to address the concern. Therefore, people will be referred for statementing. We need to we are considering other policy options. However, I am ensure that schools do not think, “Either we could go grateful to the Chairman of the Education Committee through the difficult process of statementing, or we for tabling new clause 22, which has enabled me to put could just exclude the pupil.” Obviously the powers that that on the record. the Bill gives head teachers will allow precisely that to happen. Ensuring that it does not happen to young Mr Sheerman: I think the Minister was here listening people is a key concern for Labour Members. to the debate earlier, but the Select Committee’s report on the matter ranged pretty broadly and made some Mr Gibb: We can talk about those qualitative issues reasonably positive suggestions for change. When home when we discuss the quantitative ones in the meeting educators were good they were very good indeed, but that I just offered. I am happy to do that. the Committee received evidence that some people who On assessment, the hon. Lady referred to the special did not want to send their children to school could educational needs Green Paper, which states clearly in legally refrain from sending them—they would not be paragraph 3.55: prosecuted—by saying that they were home educating “We know that there is a group of children with SEN who are them, when there was very little evidence that those currently excluded on multiple occasions on a fixed-term basis, children were being educated at all. and there may be other excluded pupils whose SEN have not yet been identified.” Mr Gibb: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. That paragraph also states: Those are concerns to which we are giving careful “we will recommend in exclusion guidance that children are consideration, but there are strong opinions on all sides assessed through an effective multi-agency assessment for any of the debate. We want to ensure that we consider the underlying causal factors. We will suggest that schools trigger this issues carefully and take all those strong opinions into assessment in instances in which a pupil displays poor behaviour account. that does not improve despite effective behaviour management by the school.” Mr Graham Stuart: May I express my gratitude to my I quoted that in Committee and I quote it again today, hon. Friend for listening to the representations from me to show that it is the Government’s intention to ensure and from home educators? That is precisely the way in that those assessments take place. which the Government should operate, and I know that I think people have heard enough of me— there is great gratitude out there among home educators who are afraid that there will always be malign forces at Mr Iain Wright: No! work whenever the Government come anywhere near them. As for the local authorities that misrepresent Mr Gibb: Thank you. their powers and are, according to home educators, Finally, let me turn to new clause 22, tabled by my overstepping the mark, can the Minister give any hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness reassurances about what can be done to protect the (Mr Stuart), the Chairman of the Select Committee on rights of home educators? Where there is evidence that Education. I fully understand his concerns about the children are not receiving a suitable education, local proposed change to the pupil registration regulations authorities should act, as the hon. Member for Huddersfield that apply when parents choose to remove their children (Mr Sheerman) said, but outwith that they should from school to home educate them. My hon. Friend respect the right of home educators to direct their now knows that we shall not proceed with the change in children’s education. its present form, and I hope that I can further reassure him by explaining the thinking that led us to propose Mr Gibb: My hon. Friend makes a good point, just as the regulation change in the first place, and what we he made a good speech on those issues. Local authorities intend to do now. As he said, the change would have are public authorities. They should provide accurate required schools to retain pupils on the roll for 20 school information about their powers and duties, and they are days following a parent’s decision to remove their child open to challenge if they fail to do so. I hope that that from school for home education. If the parents change reassures my hon. Friend. their minds, the child could be re-admitted to the school. Mr Stuart: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend I was attracted by that proposition, as was my hon. for giving way again. If, with the help of home educators, Friend. I compiled a dossier of evidence about local authorities, The Government’s policy remains that parents are would it be possible for me to meet the Minister and responsible for their children’s education. They have the talk further with him about ways to ensure both that right to choose to fulfil that responsibility by educating local authorities are aware of the law and that they their children themselves, rather than by sending them observe it? 1241 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1242

Mr Gibb: I am happy to accept my hon. Friend’s (4) Payments under subsection (3) shall be subject to the invitation. As he knows, I always take his views on eligible recipient attending every learning session in connection education in general very seriously, and I am always with an eligible education course unless the recognised particularly interested in his very well-informed views educational institution has authorised every absence. on home education. He is probably the most well-informed (5) The minimum payments under subsection (3) shall be Member of the House on that issue— determined by the Secretary of State, to take effect on 1 September of every year. The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): (6) Regulations may provide for the eligibility criteria or He is. administration of the Education Maintenance Allowance.”.’. New clause 9—Requirement to achieve specified standard: Mr Gibb: There you are; you heard it from the suppliers of careers guidance— Secretary of State himself. My hon. Friend is the best- ‘(1) EA 2002 is amended as follows. informed Member of the House on home education, (2) In section 29 (additional functions of governing body), and I will happily have that meeting with him in the after subsection (5) insert— near future. “(6) The governing body and head teacher of a maintained After those rather lengthy remarks, I hope that my school shall comply with any standards prescribed by the hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West Secretary of State in securing that all relevant registered pupils at the school are provided with independent careers guidance under will withdraw his amendment so that we can press on to section 42A (Provision of careers guidance in schools in the next group. England) of the Education Act 1997 including the opportunity for pupils to meet at the premises of the school the person 5pm providing independent careers guidance.”.’. Mr Brady: I shall not detain the House for long. New New clause 11—Enrichment activities for 16 to 18 year clause 2 was a modest but practical measure that would olds— have extended opportunities to children of limited means. ‘(1) EA 2002 is amended as follows. I am disappointed that my hon. Friend the Minister (2) After section 85A insert— feels unable to give it stronger support, but I also hope “85B Enrichment activities for 16 to 18 year olds that the other place will return to this important issue. I (1) A pupil aged 16 to 18 is also entitled to guidance, tutorials beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause. and enrichment activities which may include— Clause, by leave, withdrawn. (a) learning aims that lead to external qualifications or external certificates of attainment not approved by the Secretary of State; New Clause 5 (b) careers guidance; (c) sports; PAYMENTSINRELATIONTOFULL-TIME, POST-16 (d) music, dance and drama; EDUCATION (e) industry-related programmes, including vendor- ‘(1) EA 1996 is amended as follows. certificated courses such as those offered by IT (2) In section 518, after subsection (2), insert— companies; “(3) The Secretary of State must make regulations in relation (f) health education; to the payment of any allowance or bursary to any eligible (g) use of learning resource centres; applicant who is over compulsory school age but aged 18 or (h) activities that support learners to access a progression under and who attends a full-time further education course in opportunity and/or employment; England in a school sixth form or at a Further Education College (i) counselling. or at a sixth form college, or who is on a Foundation Education programme or who is on a Foundation Education programme or (2) The Secretary of State shall take into account the who is on a ‘Programme-Led Apprenticeship’. entitlements in subsection (1) when determining funding for pupils aged 16 to 18.”.’. (4) Payments under subsection (3) shall be subject to the eligible recipient attending every learning session in connection Amendment 27, in clause 26, page 27, line 21, at end with an eligible education course unless the recognised add— educational institution has authorised every absence.”.’.—(Nic ‘(7) The Secretary of State must produce a transition plan to Dakin.) highlight how he will assist schools, colleges and local authorities Brought up, and read the First time. in the transition from the current system of careers guidance to the new all-age careers service.’. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I beg to move, That Amendment 28, page 27, line 21, at end add— the clause be read a Second time. ‘(7) Before the commencement of this section, the Secretary of State must report to Parliament on arrangements for the funding Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it of careers guidance between the end of ring-fenced Connexions will be convenient to discuss the following: funding and the establishment of the All Age Careers Service.’. New clause 6—Education Maintenance Allowance— Amendment 19, in clause 27, page 27, line 36, at end ‘(1) EA 1996 is amended as follows. insert— (2) In section 518, after subsection (2), insert— ‘(d) an Academy School.’. “(3) The Secretary of State must make regulations in relation Amendment 29, page 28, line 3, at end insert ‘by to the payment of an Education Maintenance Allowance to any qualified careers professionals’. eligible applicant who is over compulsory school age but aged 18 Amendment 18, page 28, line 5, at end insert— or under and who attends a full-time further education course in England in a school sixth form or at a Further Education college ‘(ba) involves at least one guidance session that is delivered or at a sixth form college, or who is on a Foundation Education in person by a qualified careers professional, and’. programme or who is on a ‘Programme-Led Apprenticeship’. Government amendments 36 and 37. 1243 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1244

[Mr Deputy Speaker] The new clause refers to the range of activities that benefited from that enrichment funding. It is ironic that Amendment 17, in clause 76, page 57, line 9, at end on the day after the Government got into a muddle over insert— the ill-thought-out idea to sell places at university, they ‘(2A) Section 68 will come into force on 1 September 2013.’. should go out of their way to undermine the funding arrangements for post-16 and the development of the Nic Dakin: I want to cover three areas. The first broader person that is necessary to allow young people relates to education maintenance allowance and the from the state sector to compete on equal terms with direction of the Government’s programme. One of my those from other sectors. I hope that the Government former students, Emma Donaldson, reminded me recently will look carefully at those proposals on funding post-16 of the Prime Minister’s words just before the general education. election. He could not have been clearer when he said: In April this year, the National Union of Teachers “We have looked at educational maintenance allowances and we haven’t announced any plan to get rid of them”. and the Employer Contact Unit conducted a snapshot Well, that didn’t last very long, did it? Emma wrote: survey on the impact of cuts on further education and sixth-form colleges. It found that the overwhelming “The Tories claim that the younger generation should not pay for the mistakes of the past generation, but with these slashes in majority of colleges—96%—had been told that their allowances and the raising of tuition fees we are being asked to do budgets would be significantly cut for 2011-12. Of those, exactly that.” more than nine out of 10 said that the cuts would have a We can add the disappearance of the future jobs fund to negative impact on teaching and learning in their colleges. that list, and it is easy to understand why young people That survey highlights the immediate effect of the cuts feel badly let down by this Government. to enrichment funding on young people now. That is a The EMA is about far more than just boosting matter of huge concern—to me and many others—and participation. It is also about attendance, achievement, it needs to be looked at. The new clause provides an motivation and welfare support. Giving evidence to the opportunity for Ministers to do so. Select Committee, David Linnell, the principal of Cornwall I have had conversations with Ministers and taken college, warned: delegations to see them about what is happening on the “If EMAs are reduced, and if the money is severely reduced, front line of education, so I know that they have been we will see two things. We will see a reduction in those students surprised by the impact of the changes to enrichment who come, stay and actually succeed.” funding. Those Ministers are sensible and serious people He was talking about students not only coming to the who will think about how best to make an adjustment college, but staying and succeeding. as we go forward, so that the education system can New clause 5 relates to one of the conditions for continue to be robust and successful. young people gaining an award of the EMA, which is My final point concerns quality careers guidance, the motivational aspect of the award. I welcome the fact which is covered by amendments 27, 28, 19, 29 and 18. that the Government were taken kicking and screaming The amendments are designed to ensure that the Bill’s to listen to young people and their families, and that suggestions are improved, so that we have high quality, they improved the offer of money available. Even so, the face-to-face careers guidance and do not let it wither amount available for young people in the new scheme away. Life is already much harder and more competitive has dropped from £560 million to £190 million, and for Emma, whom I quoted earlier, and her generation. recipients will receive significantly less in normal University is expensive and to get a job after studying circumstances. Furthermore, 68% of colleges recently many young people are expected to work for free to get surveyed believe that recruitment to colleges will be their foot on the ladder, which is not a good thing. severely affected as a result of these changes. Young people might need well-connected parents to My concern is about not only recruitment, but ensuring arrange an opportunity, but the young people whom I that, once recruited, the students are retained and that represent do not always have those advantages. the motivational aspect of the EMA is retained in the new award, so that it can have an impact on motivation By this Government’s actions, the careers service, the and achievement as well as on welfare support. The EMA, the future jobs fund and tuition fees—the ladders current consultation seems to look both ways, talking of support to help young people get on in life—are about national benchmarks as well as saying that all being systematically kicked away.Good quality personalised those matters can be decided locally. It is therefore careers advice is essential to help young people make unclear to what extent there will be a postcode lottery the best choices for their future. It is too important to be and to what extent the motivational aspects will be left to a postcode lottery. retained through certain conditions. It is clear that the The concept of a postcode lottery is a theme most important condition relates to attendance, because running through my three main points. If we are not it is easy to measure and maintain. careful, we will have a postcode lottery on the Those are my comments on my first topic, so let me education maintenance allowance; we will have a move on to new clause 11, which deals with my second postcode lottery on enrichment activities; and we will topic—the provision of enrichment activities for post-16 have a postcode lottery on careers advice. That is not students and the appropriate funding of the same. The what we owe to this country’s young people. That is why cut in entitlement funding from 114 guided learning our amendments are designed to secure proper hours to 30 guided learning hours, which was made conditionality around the EMA, a commitment to earlier this year for the coming year, has resulted in enrichment activities along with the proper funding significant detriment to the funding of post-16 learning—it necessary to put them back in place, and a commitment is essentially a 75% cut in entitlement, which translates to secure a high standard of guidance in every school into a 12% cut in overall funding. and college. 1245 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1246

Mr Graham Stuart: It is a pleasure to speak again in knowledge of those options, but we need staff with as the debate, and to follow the hon. Member for Scunthorpe much knowledge as possible who can give advice as well (Nic Dakin), who is a fellow member of the Education as, perhaps, signposting young people in the direction Committee. He made a powerful speech, but he rather of online resources. Such a combination could bring overstated the case. References to the wholesale kicking real change, ensuring that young people follow pathways away of all the ladders of opportunity do not befit the that lead to satisfaction, personal development and hon. Gentleman, who is knowledgeable and who also economic success. I know that the Minister entirely tends to speak in a reasonable and balanced fashion. agrees with that. Similarly, attacking postcode lotteries is always an easy I am pleased to note from Government amendment way of resisting any form of localisation aimed at 36 that Ministers listen. I said in Committee that the ensuring that need is met appropriately in a rural area. Secretary of State’s right to withdraw the apprenticeship As one who represents a rural constituency and rural offer was not appropriate given the new circumstances, further education colleges, I am aware of the need for a and that if employers were prepared to take young more appropriate use of limited funds. I will not go into people on, the last thing that we should do is introduce the details—I am sure that Ministers will do that—but a provision allowing someone in the Government to we know that the last Labour Government made it clear prevent them from doing so. I am delighted that the that, if they were re-elected, they would look again at Minister listened to that, as he said that he would, and the EMA and seek to make savings. If savings are to be has already returned with a Government amendment. made, what better way of making them than to put the If the Government continue to be firm in purpose funds into the hands of those on the front line who have and clear in vision, but prepared to listen where the the closest interest in, and the best understanding of, argument is sufficiently strong, we will further improve provision for young people? The hon. Gentleman should both the Bill and, most importantly, the education of not overstate his case, let alone suggest that Government young people in this country. Members, particularly Ministers, have any motivation other than to try to improve ladders of opportunity. It is possible to believe that measures are not going in the 5.15 pm right direction without suggesting that they are all Lisa Nandy: First, I associate myself wholeheartedly calamitous or driven by the wrong motives. with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Although I did not table amendment 27, its wording Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and the amendments standing is exactly the same as an amendment that I tabled in in our names. One of their key aims is to preserve the Committee. It emphasises the need to ensure that the conditionality principle that was such an important transition to the new all-age careers service is handled aspect of the EMA, and I ask Ministers to give a properly, and that in the intervening period we do not commitment on that. The beauty of EMA was that indeed see a postcode lottery with some areas not students had to attend and attain in order to get it. In receiving appropriate care. effect, the state said to the student: “If you work hard and try hard, we will back you regardless of your Ian Mearns: That is already happening. background. We think you deserve the same opportunities as your peers.” Mr Stuart: The hon. Gentleman has a point, which is That was very important. Before entering Parliament, why it is important for us to be reassured about the I worked with children and young people for seven or interim period. It is worth saying—I wish that the hon. eight years, and I was always struck by their strong Member for Scunthorpe had been able to say it—that sense of the importance of fairness. If young people are the Government’s vision of a higher quality of careers going to buy into whichever scheme replaces the EMA, advice than we have seen in the past is a good one, but, it is essential that they see that it is fair. The aspect of like the hon. Gentleman, I want more reassurance about the EMA that I have just highlighted was one of the exactly what will be delivered. main reasons why young people thought that it was fair, It is all very well to paint a picture of a fantastic because those who were working hard and trying hard service that will be genuinely independent and give were assured by their Government that they would get it people a better overview of all their options—not just and be supported. the academic options delivered by institutions in their Following the chaos and insecurity caused by the own interests—but we need to see what incentives are shambolic way in which the cancellation of the EMA provided for the actors in the system to ensure that they was announced, I was very pleased that Ministers listened deliver that. We do not want someone to tick the box by and made some commitments in relation to students simply shoving a young person in front of a website, who have already started their courses. I was also deeply with the result that that young person never receives the disappointed that the scheme for existing students was information that they need about local provision. I will altered so that the maximum payment that they receive not rehearse all the arguments, but I have heard evidence was reduced. Young people in my constituency rely on about further education colleges being barred from the EMA not as an extra or a perk, but as an essential going into schools to advise young people. part of their household income. There is a clash between institutional interests and One of the reasons why my hon. Friend and I are what I want to see, which is a truly independent service seeking to ensure that there are clear national eligibility with highly trained staff who have an extensive knowledge criteria for the EMA is that students in our constituencies of all the local options—I know that that is also the rely on knowing that they will get the EMA in order to vision of the Minister for Further Education, Skills and make the decision to go to college in the first place. Lifelong Learning. It is difficult to imagine that anyone, Those students absolutely need to know whether they however clever and hard-working, has an encyclopaedic will qualify. The key issue in respect of the concern that 1247 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1248

[Lisa Nandy] Mr Graham Stuart: I cannot let what the hon. Lady has just said pass. People from lower-income families has already been expressed about the possibility of a can afford to go to university, as they pay nothing up postcode lottery and about discretion appearing to be front. People pay only when they earn £21,000; they pay the direction of travel is that under those circumstances 9% above that, when they are earning the money. Do such students simply will not be able to make an informed not send the message to young people from lower-income choice on whether to go to college. families in your constituency or mine that they cannot afford to go to college—they can, and they should if Ian Mearns: It is also a concern that the decision to they want to. Do not scaremonger. abolish the EMA in the first place was based on flawed evidence from a survey that was conducted in school sixth forms but not in further education colleges. That Lisa Nandy: First, it is absolutely clear who is sending fact in itself shows that Ministers got the whole message a message to young people in this country that we do wrong. In 2009-10, 567,000 youngsters received the not value them, will not support them and will not back EMA at the higher level—£30 a week—yet Ministers them, and it is the hon. Gentleman’s party. It is an have decided to do away with it, based on evidence from absolute disgrace that on the things that we are discussing youngsters in sixth forms but not in FE colleges. In my today—Aimhigher, the EMA and tuition fees—all the area of Gateshead, 67% of youngsters attending the progress that has been made is being unravelled, with local college were entitled to the EMA at the higher very little humility or apology from the Government. level. On the hon. Gentleman’s accusations that my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe is overstating his Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. case, I simply ask where on earth the hon. Gentleman May I just point out that we are running close to time has been for the past 12 months. The outcry has not just and interventions should therefore be brief, so as to give come from young people in Wigan and Scunthorpe, as many Members as possible the chance to speak? because there has been a national outcry at the removal Lisa Nandy: I agree with my hon. Friend. Despite of the EMA, which is one of the most successful things everything that has happened and the anger that many introduced by the previous Government. I simply ask of us have expressed on behalf of young people in our him to spend a bit more time outside this place listening constituencies, it is important that we proceed on the to young people who are experiencing serious hardship basis of evidence. Another concern that has been expressed and a bit less time trying to support his Front-Bench to me is that if there is no clear guidance, eligibility team. criteria or national standard in respect of who will That brings me to the subject of enrichment funding, receive the EMA, it could leave colleges open to legal on which my hon. Friend and I have tabled a provision challenge under equalities legislation, if students are as we are seeking to protect it today. The withdrawal of left disadvantaged as a result of not receiving it. I enrichment funding will have an astonishing impact in would be grateful if Ministers were to take that into my constituency—my local college, Winstanley college, account in their deliberations and as part of the current is losing £200,000 of its funding next year, which represents consultation. a 10% cut—yet we have heard so little about this. Over All Labour Members have concerns about the impact the past year, I have heard Ministers talk a lot in the of the funding cut to which my hon. Friend the Member Select Committee about trying to improve the situation for Scunthorpe has referred and about the reduction in of the most disadvantaged young people, but the withdrawal the number of students who will be able to receive of enrichment funding is doing a great deal to widen the support. I would be grateful if Ministers were to make a gap between the haves and the have-nots. Winstanley commitment today that they will monitor the impact of college is being forced to say that only students whose the withdrawal of the EMA and if it is found that fewer parents can afford to send them on trips will be able to students can participate and achieve in education, they go on them as part of their course. That is just one of will reverse their decision. many examples that the college gave me and is distraught As my hon. Friend has said, one of the reasons why about. The withdrawal of this funding will have a real Labour Members feel so strongly about this issue is that impact, and I urge Ministers to think again. we have seen a triple whammy: the Aimhigher initiative, The withdrawal of enrichment funding will clearly which got 40% more students in my constituency going hit hardest those schools that already have a disadvantaged on to university in just six years, has been abolished; the intake. St John Rigby college, which is just down the EMA, which enabled students to get to the stage where road from me in my constituency, will take a funding hit they could go to university, is going; and tuition fees next year, because of the withdrawal of £300,000. Half have been raised beyond the level that many young its students receive the EMA and only 2% of the people in my constituency can afford. At the same time, students who come into that college average an A-grade 1 million young people are unemployed. So, if those at GCSE. Its very hard-working and talented principal students are going to endure significant hardship, which has told me that enrichment funding is not an optional is what many families—in particular, those containing extra, but an essential part of giving its hard-working several siblings—will face, to stay on at college without and talented students the chance to reach their full much hope of going on to university, it is imperative potential. It cannot replace that enrichment funding, so that they have a guarantee of not only the level of it must do other things. It is planning to halve the financial support that they will receive, but the quality tutorial hours for all students, so that it can ensure that of education that they will get. it protects those essential services. Like Winstanley That brings me to enrichment funding. My hon. college, which I mentioned earlier, class sizes will go up, Friend the Member for Scunthorpe has tabled a proposal which will disadvantage all students but will have a on that, which I support. particular impact on the most disadvantaged. 1249 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1250

I join my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe in 5.30 pm supporting the new clause because unless the Government Mr Iain Wright: I shall be brief, given the time think again, sports, arts, drama, counselling and career constraints, and speak specifically to new clause 9. I opportunities will be denied to precisely those young agree with every word that was said by my hon. Friends people who need them most. Surely that is not the the Members for Scunthorpe and for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) intended consequence of the Government’s policies. I as well as by the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther urge the Minister to think again. McVey). Their amendments are eminently sensible and would go a long way toward repairing the damage that Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): I, along with in 12 short months the Government have inflicted on Opposition colleagues, have tabled amendment 27 to young people through their policies on the education require the Secretary of State to maintenance allowance, enrichment activities and post-16 “produce a transition plan…from the current system of careers funding. guidance to the new all-age careers service.’. The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong How that transition is handled—all of it—is vital. First, Learning and the Minister of State, Department for I want to welcome the Government’s plans for an Education, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and all-age careers service, but I emphasise the importance Littlehampton (Mr Gibb) will recall that we had of careers advice. It is the bridge from education to considerable debate in Committee about clauses 26 and work, fundamentally signposting the match between 27 and the changes to the careers service that was an individual and a job or a journey into education provided to young people. It became very apparent and fulfilment. As those choices become ever more when the Minister for Further Education, Skills and sophisticated, an accompanying sophistication of Lifelong Learning was questioned in Committee that knowledge and know-how is needed to enable a student no real work or thought had been given to the transition to navigate their way, so that all young people—this is plan between the ending of Connexions and the what makes me want to speak today—from all backgrounds establishment of the all-age careers service. The Minister and of all abilities, interests and ambitions can achieve conceded the possibility of having a careers summit to their goal in life. discuss the matter, which might be imminent, but it is probably about nine months too late and should have I believe that this transition has come at a critical and been designed into a clear transition plan. I know that crucial time. We know that youth unemployment is he is genuinely and passionately committed to this issue, particularly high, covering 1 million people across the but his eye has been worryingly off the ball regarding country aged between 16 and 24 and 160,000 in the the transition. This is inept. north-west, the highest in any region. In Wirral, 16.8% of Although some services may be available in September, those aged between 16 and 19 are not in education, others will not be operational until April 2012. There is training or work. At a time of incredibly high youth confusion about commitment to funding and there is a unemployment, opportunities and changes are opening real risk that vital professional expertise will be lost; up, too. There are changing opportunities in apprenticeships indeed, that is borne out by what is happening. A and what they have to offer, in tertiary education, in Unison survey of local authorities has shown that 97.5% voluntary work, in work experience, in setting up a of councils that responded were cutting the careers business or even in travelling around the world and service in their area. In central Bedfordshire, personal doing something with charities elsewhere—so we have advisers were being withdrawn at the end of the last the double impact of high unemployment and changing autumn term and there is a lack of staff to cover opportunities. statutory duties. In Essex, no one-to-one advice is being On a personal note, I meet approximately 400 schoolgirls provided at all. Unison concludes that the survey confirms every week from all backgrounds and not only are they that confused about their options and what they want to do, “the level of cuts and the lack of clear transition guidance from but they have an inner confusion, too. They do not central government are leading to the decimation of the careers know what is out there or whether they have the confidence service”. or ability to do it, and they now need to ask whether As the hon. Member for Wirral West and my hon. they can get direction to help them. Those young girls Friend the Member for Wigan have pointed out, expertise tell me that they need role models and that they need to is being lost precisely when the country’s young people meet people who have done a job for real. They need to need it most. Students leaving school in a matter of be able to choose a job and to get interested in it, and a weeks after doing their exams will be going out into a person will need to tease out that interest and to show world in which conditions are the harshest they have them those opportunities. been for a generation, with youth unemployment running This transition must be right. People leaving school at record levels and educational options for over-16s at a vulnerable time need the right options to be put in narrowed with the scrapping of EMA. It is becoming front of them and that must be delivered through clearer by the day that Government policy seems to be proper careers advice. It is also a vulnerable time for moving us towards a higher education system that people working in the profession and giving out careers benefits the well-off rather than the more vulnerable. advice. This is not just about their knowledge and In those circumstances and in that economic context, know-how—this is a subject they love and about which it is vital that before young people leave school they they are passionate. We must not lose the knowledge on receive the best possible information, advice and guidance the internet, but we must also not lose those people and about their prospects and options. The manner in which their personal knowledge. We cannot let something so they receive such advice will vary according to their vital slip through our fingertips when it was within our personal preferences. In this modern age, they might grasp and when we had the ability to save it. wish to view things online or to interact with others in 1251 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1252

[Mr Iain Wright] “The likely reality is that hundreds of thousands, and possibly millions, of young people will never get access to personalised an electronic version of social networking. We can and impartial career guidance, having to rely on the national telephone should use technology in innovative ways to raise aspiration, helpline or website and school staff”. to show young people what is available and to demonstrate Young people deserve better than that. I believe very how they can achieve their ambitions. much in allowing the professional judgment of teachers and head teachers to flower, but more than anything Mr Hayes: I know that the hon. Gentleman would else I want the potential of the young person to be not want anything to remain on the record that might, nurtured. For a Department that states that it trusts the however unintentionally, appear as a calumny. On his judgments of professionals, Ministers seem remarkably last point, he will know that we have rolled out the Next reluctant to allow careers professionals to meet pupils Steps IT project, a sophisticated IT interface on precisely at the school. this subject, and that the careers taskforce has been The purpose of new clause 9 is to ensure that that working under Dame Ruth Silver, followed by the Careers would occur. The clause would help to ensure that Profession Alliance under Ruth Spellman, to develop relevant and personalised advice could be provided for for the first time a coherent set of professional standards, every single student, rather than just a select few in a accreditations and training for careers advisers. That school. The school governing body—the Minister will did not happen under Labour, but it is happening under recall that I have always believed that school governors our Government. have a positive and largely untapped role to play in the provision of first-class careers advice—would have the Mr Wright: The Minister will recall the information, responsibility to ensure that careers professionals had advice and guidance strategy that I published, “Quality, face-to-face meetings with pupils. It would make sure Choice and Aspiration”, which put in place precisely that, as my hon. Friends the Members for Scunthorpe those measures—Next Steps and the careers taskforce—so (Nic Dakin) and for Wigan mentioned and as the hon. he has basically implemented what I personally put in Member for Wirral West alluded to, there was not a place when I was at the Department. postcode lottery or even a school lottery for careers advice, with pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds Mr Hayes: That was ungallant of me, so let me being disadvantaged still further by a lack of resources qualify what I said. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely to fund face-to-face services. If the Minister and the right. Some progress was made and he was a very Front-Bench team are serious about wishing to help diligent Minister, but in the same spirit I think he would every child fulfil their potential—and I think they are—I want to acknowledge that we have carried that through cannot see how they would have a problem with new in the two respects I have mentioned. clause 9. I therefore hope that the Minister will accept it. I give notice that I wish to test the opinion of the Mr Wright: Let me concede that the Minister has House by pressing it to a vote. been the best Minister for Further Education, Skills Finally, I hope that the hon. Member for North and Lifelong Learning that I have ever seen in this Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) did not take offence earlier Government. He has been exceptional in that regard. when I commented from a sedentary position about The Minister talked about online and electronic flabby liberalism. I was speaking about his policy position, information, advice and guidance about careers. That rather than any personal appearance. On careers advice, has its place, but this is my point and the point of new I think the Liberals are like Joe Bugner rather than clause 9: a central part of any successful careers advice Muhammad Ali or the late, great Sir Henry Cooper, system is the face-to-face personalised and tailored whom we lost earlier this month. I wish they were more interaction between a young person and a careers like Ali and Cooper, and it is disappointing that they professional, preferably not on a one-off basis on a wet have not been so in debate in Committee and in the Wednesday afternoon, as we discussed in Committee, House today. but repeated time and again so that trust can be established between the student and the careers professional, and a Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) relationship built up where the professional can know (LD): I, too, am conscious of the time so I shall be brief. about the student’s wishes, skills, ambitions, potential I welcome the debate, as I welcome the co-operation and limitations, and accordingly challenge, motivate and exchanges that I have had with the Minister responsible and provide good tailored advice about their prospects. for these matters. I know he has been listening to In Committee, the Schools Minister did not provide Opposition Members in Committee, colleagues in both huge reassurance on the matter. He seemed to believe parties and those outside. that face-to-face information, advice and guidance was On new clause 6 moved by the hon. Member for not appropriate for all students. I asked him whether he Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), and his comments and those thought such face-to-face access should be the cream of of the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), they are careers advice, available only to a select few students, right about the need for the new system for EMA, for and he said in Committee that it would depend on the those who will continue to receive it, to be subject to the school, which might think it was appropriate for some two criteria of attendance and punctuality. That is students, but then again, might not. That is worrying. extremely important. That was seen to be a discipline, Steve Higginbotham, the president of the Institute of and in one of the reports I gave to the Prime Minister Career Guidance, said that as a result of the Government’s and the Deputy Prime Minister I made the point that plans and the incompetence regarding the transition EMA should be continued for those who have started scheme and because face-to-face advice has not been receiving it and that it should be subject to eligibility prioritised, criteria. 1253 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1254

I am sure that the Government will have noticed the There is obviously a concern in the House, which the equality impact assessment on the EMA plans. In my hon. Member for Wirral West expressed, about the recommendations to Ministers, I made it very clear that transition from the current Connexions service, which entitlements were better than general localised discretion, was good in parts and less good in others, to the all-age because knowing how much they will receive is a careers service, which is generally welcome and could be consideration for young people, just as knowing what very good when it is up and running. Ministers understand the score is for university costs is a consideration for the need to ensure that a year’s worth of young people students. I hope that the Government’s response to the do not fall through the gap between the old and new consultation—there are a few days remaining for anyone services. We must ensure that resources and arrangements who has not yet responded and wishes to do so—will are in place to prevent that. not be so prescriptive that it is burdensome and that it I want to make one last pair of suggestions for will make it clear that certain things will, in effect, be Ministers to consider. I have been across the country entitlements for young people so that from this summer talking with school students, and students in sixth-form they will be able to say, “Yes, I’m going to college next colleges and universities, and some very unfortunate year. It will be a good thing for me.” I hope that there is evidence has come out of that. Some young people, of a favourable response. The wording of the proposed course, say that their careers advice was excellent, but new clauses as they are given might not be accepted, but the majority say that they did not get good enough we have more opportunities during the passage of the careers advice or work experience. This was a clear Bill to get to the same place. majority, probably about 80% whether on Merseyside, Mr Iain Wright: Under the existing provisions for in Cornwall or anywhere else, and we really have to EMA, around 600,000 young people were helped to improve those things. continue their education. Under the Government’s new At the end, I hope Ministers will accept that, in every plans, 12,000 people will be helped. Does the right hon. sixth-form, college and school, somebody should have Gentleman seriously think that that is good enough? responsibility for the careers service and careers advice, and that another person should have responsibility for Simon Hughes: Again, the hon. Gentleman would the access arrangements—for making sure that people not want to mislead people. The scheme proposes that are shown the life opportunities that will come to them everyone who this year is in their first year of receiving after school or college. EMA at the top rate—£30 a week—will next year receive £20 a week. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of people, not 12,000. The figure he refers to 5.45 pm relates to the additional agreement, which was never We need to build on where we are and to do much there before, that those with special needs, such as those better. I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to on income support, those who have been carers and the intention behind this group of proposed changes, those who have been in care, will be entitled to a but, if we cannot agree to them tonight because we minimum of £1,200 a year. I welcome that. The might not be at that stage just yet, I hope that we will Government will have to keep under review whether have an opportunity to do so before the Bill becomes that is enough for that cohort of young people and law. I know that Ministers are keen to get it right, and I whether the figure might have to be adjusted in years to welcome the fact that the Minister before us is determined come. to do so. New clause 9, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) and his friends, makes Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I want to speak an important point that was also raised by the hon. to the amendment in my name, on the careers service Members for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and for Wirral and Connexions, and to the proposed changes suggested West (Esther McVey). I am in the process of finishing by my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic my report for the Government on the careers service Dakin), to which I have also put my name. and the implications for access to further and higher education, and I am very clear not only that there Contributors on both sides of the House have made should be a careers service available for every secondary very well the point about the importance of a professional school child, but that it should include a personalised careers service, and they have dealt with the all-too service. It is not enough that everyone should have important issue of transition. The shadow Minister, my access to a telephone service or an online service or be hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), given a book. I know that the Minister understands that referred to putting the transition plan in place, and he point and is sympathetic to it. I hope that we will arrive noted the great concern about the cuts that have already at the situation in which everyone knows that they will gone through, the loss of staff and, in some places, the be able to engage with someone who knows about total breakdown of services. The proposed changes careers and can assist them. It should certainly be one seek to ensure that the transition is put in place, and session, but more may be needed. that there is proper professional staffing of the future Those careers advisers also need to be professionally careers service. I hope that Ministers will take full recognised. The six main groups that have provided account of all those points, because they are incredibly careers guidance are getting their act together and hope important. to be together in one organisation this summer. When The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old that is done, they can be recognised, which I think will Southwark (Simon Hughes) made very well the point give us the basis for a good service of general careers about the importance of getting the careers service information, advice and guidance. I welcome that and right, and how long it has been an issue. At a time hope that Ministers will be sympathetic to the fact that of growing youth unemployment, that point is timely, that service must be offered by recognised professionals. indeed. 1255 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1256

Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Is my hon. Friend tribute to that. On whether conditions should be attached aware of the Department for Education and Skills to receipt of the 16 to 19 version, we expect, subject to survey of 5,000 young people, which found that 90% consultation, to set out in guidance that schools, colleges were satisfied with Connexions, and that Ofsted reported and training providers should consider doing just that. the qualitatively positive impact of the service on the I hope that those comments will go some way towards careers and other choices of young people? assuring those who have had understandable doubts about this that we intend to do this in a proper, measured Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend makes the case very and considered way. In the past few months, they have well for the success of the existing careers service and told us that conditionality, which was a feature of the importance of a professional careers service. The EMA, was an important factor in encouraging positive Government need to take account of that evidence attitudes to learning. I believe it is right that these base, but so far they have been in such a rush to push conditions should be set locally, as they are now for through these proposals, I fear that in their planning EMA. As we discussed throughout the Committee they have missed such evidence. proceedings, we are seeking to reduce, not increase, We are short of time, so I will make some brief the regulatory burdens on schools and colleges. The comments about the education maintenance allowance. administration of 16 to 19 bursaries should be at the There have been some well-made points, but I want to discretion of individual schools and colleges, supported mention Hugh Baird college and Southport college, by guidance from the centre, giving head teachers and which students from my constituency attend. Up to principals the power to make decisions that are in the 90% of the learners at those colleges receive the EMA, best interests of students. and listening to Government Members, who now seem Let me give some examples of that. Members of the to recognise the importance of linking attendance and House will know that in rural areas there are different attainment to the payment of its replacement, I wonder pressures surrounding transport from those, typically, why we are getting rid of it. As my hon. Friend the in urban areas. In other circumstances, depending on shadow Minister said, if only 12,000 people receive what people are studying, there may be particular pressures the replacement, the number really will be a drop in the to do with the equipment that is required for people to ocean. We have already seen one step in the right fulfil their studies. There needs to be sufficient flexibility direction, with the U-turn on providing an allowance to to take account of, and address, different needs, but that existing learners, but I hope that the Government will does not mean that coherence should not be established go much further on the subject of EMA’s replacement. in what we say from the centre. I hope that that goes a My evidence from the colleges that I have mentioned considerable way down the road towards the destination is that students who receive EMA have considerably of widespread agreement that is at the heart of all we do higher attendance and attainment than those who do as a Government and I do as a Minister. not. They are also unable to work out which students The hon. Member for Scunthorpe spoke about will continue to attend without receiving EMA or to enrichment activities. I thank him for the opportunity determine which students are young carers and from to discuss this important and valuable aspect of young other vulnerable groups and therefore very dependent people’s education. I know that he was a distinguished on EMA. These issues have not been sufficiently taken principal of John Leggott sixth form college before on board, and that is why the amendments tabled by my coming to this House and brings that understanding hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe are so important. here. I also know, however, that he does not support the reductions that we have had to make to the funding for Mr Hayes: I will speak to Government amendments 36 enrichment activities. This does not mean that we do and 37 and deal with the remarks made by hon. Members not understand their significance or value. The context on the other amendments in the group. in which we debate these matters today, as we debate all Let me first say a few words about EMA. The hon. our considerations on the funding and management of Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) always speaks in a education, is one of financial pressure. The Government reasoned way. I appreciate that he brings expertise to are in the business now of having to make tough decisions this House because of his prior experience. I share his about value for money and priorities, and of ensuring commitment, and that of the hon. Member for Wigan that the money that is spent delivers the fairness that the (Lisa Nandy), to fairness. It is important that we deliver hon. Member for Wigan articulated. a fair outcome. It is also right that we set out clearly our Because we agree that such activities can be valuable expectations of how the new bursary fund will operate, for young people, we have protected funding for tutorials and we mean to do so. for all 16 to 18-year-olds. Our commitment to vulnerable As the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old groups is demonstrated by our increasing by £150 million Southwark (Simon Hughes) said, we are engaged in a to £750 million the amount of funding to support consultation. I can give the commitment today that students from disadvantaged backgrounds and those following the consultation we will publish short, focused who need additional support. We expect that additional guidance on the new system for schools, colleges and funding to be used to provide the additional support training providers. We certainly do not want a system that disadvantaged students need, including enrichment that is not coherent, consistent or fair. As has been done activities if they are appropriate. previously in respect of EMA, we will publish details of I would like to have spoken about the apprenticeship the arrangements that we intend to make for provision entitlement, but it is sufficient to say that in the evidence of financial assistance under the new scheme. On 28 March, sessions, it was clear from the witnesses that the we announced additional transitional arrangements to arrangements that prevailed under the previous Government help those who are part way through their studies. The were not widely agreed to be effective. I think it was hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) paid Martin Doel of the Association of Colleges who said he 1257 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1258 never felt that those arrangements were really operable. instructed schools that they need to put in place the I think that our changes will mean that we can deliver transitional steps in September, ready for the full steps on our commitment. later, and— I will say no more about that, because I want to say a word about careers guidance, which has been spoken 6pm about a lot. It is a subject dear to my heart as it is vital. Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 8 February). Let me make it clear that I fully appreciate the relationship The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already between good advice and guidance and subsequent proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), progress. Furthermore, it is fundamentally important That the clause be read a Second time. for social mobility and social justice that that advice Question negatived. and guidance is available to people who would not get it by other means. As the right hon. Member for Bermondsey The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions and Old Southwark suggested, such advice and guidance necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded is usually available to more advantaged people through at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). social networks or familiar understanding. That is not always the case for people with less wherewithal who New Clause 9 are trying to navigate their way through the system. This is not about aspiration. Let us once and for all kill REQUIREMENT TO ACHIEVE SPECIFIED STANDARD: off the bourgeois, left assumption that working-class SUPPLIERS OF CAREERS GUIDANCE people do not aspire to the same things as their middle-class ‘(1) EA 2002 is amended as follows. contemporaries. Their ambitions are the same; what they lack is the wherewithal. My mission is to provide (2) In section 29 (additional functions of governing body), after subsection (5) insert— that wherewithal, so let us discuss some of the detail. “(6) The governing body and head teacher of a maintained school shall comply with any standards prescribed by the Julie Hilling: Will the Minister give way? Secretary of State in securing that all relevant registered pupils at the school are provided with independent careers guidance under section 42A (Provision of careers guidance in schools in Mr Hayes: I will not, because I do not have time. I am England) of the Education Act 1997 including the opportunity terribly sorry. for pupils to meet at the premises of the school the person The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) is providing independent careers guidance.”.’.—(Mr Iain Wright.) right to say that he initiated the idea of the IT system. Brought up. We implemented what he initiated. He is right that he Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. set up the taskforce. We have considered those recommendations and taken them seriously. We will put The House divided: Ayes 212, Noes 304. in place a state-of-the-art, comprehensive, all-age IT Division No. 269] [6 pm system, which will be available to young people and to other people who want to upskill or reskill. To support AYES that, we will have a telephone service, as he intended. Abrahams, Debbie Coffey, Ann We will deliver, for the first time, a coherent set of Alexander, Heidi Cooper, Rosie professional standards, training and accreditation for Allen, Mr Graham Cooper, rh Yvette careers professionals. The work that has been done on Ashworth, Jon Corbyn, Jeremy that over the past six to nine months is of profound Austin, Ian Creagh, Mary importance. It has been led by Ruth Spellman and was Bailey, Mr Adrian Creasy, Stella inspired by Dame Ruth Silver—there are many Ruths in Bain, Mr William Cryer, John Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Alex this business. They have been involved in a series of Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cunningham, Mr Jim activities to bring together the disparate elements of the Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Tony careers profession around a common set of objectives. Begg, Dame Anne Curran, Margaret Furthermore, it is right that we exemplify best practice. Benn, rh Hilary Dakin, Nic That is bound to involve face-to-face connections—that Berger, Luciana Danczuk, Simon word was not used advisedly—with the people seeking Blackman-Woods, Roberta Darling, rh Mr Alistair advice. We want people to have the maximum possible Blenkinsop, Tom David, Mr Wayne opportunity to gather the advice that is available from Blomfield, Paul Davidson, Mr Ian Blunkett, rh Mr David Davies, Geraint the professionals whom I have described in a way that is Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben De Piero, Gloria appropriate for them. I find it inconceivable, or at least Brennan, Kevin Denham, rh Mr John unlikely, that best practice will not include face-to-face Brown, Lyn Dobbin, Jim provision. Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dobson, rh Frank Furthermore, new clause 9 suggests that the Government Brown, Mr Russell Docherty, Thomas would not be able to issue guidance, but it is clear that Buck, Ms Karen Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. that provision is superfluous; I have checked the facts, Burnham, rh Andy Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Campbell, Mr Alan Doran, Mr Frank and the Education and Skills Act 2008, which is unaltered Campbell, Mr Ronnie Dowd, Jim by the Bill, means that the Government can issue guidance Caton, Martin Doyle, Gemma on the subject if and when necessary. We are determined Chapman, Mrs Jenny Dromey, Jack that schools, colleges and other bodies should be able to Clark, Katy Dugher, Michael provide the best possible advice. I have written to local Clarke, rh Mr Tom Durkan, Mark authorities, as I promised I would, to remind them of Clwyd, rh Ann Eagle, Ms Angela their continuing duty to promote participation. I have Coaker, Vernon Eagle, Maria 1259 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1260

Efford, Clive McKinnell, Catherine Wood, Mike Tellers for the Ayes: Elliott, Julie Meacher, rh Mr Michael Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Mark Hendrick and Ellman, Mrs Louise Meale, Mr Alan Wright, David Mr David Hamilton Engel, Natascha Mearns, Ian Wright, Mr Iain Esterson, Bill Michael, rh Alun Evans, Chris Miller, Andrew NOES Farrelly, Paul Mitchell, Austin Fitzpatrick, Jim Moon, Mrs Madeleine Adams, Nigel Davies, David T. C. Flynn, Paul Morden, Jessica Afriyie, Adam (Monmouth) Fovargue, Yvonne Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Aldous, Peter Davies, Glyn Francis, Dr Hywel Morris, Grahame M. Amess, Mr David Davies, Philip Gapes, Mike (Easington) Andrew, Stuart Davis, rh Mr David Gardiner, Barry Mudie, Mr George Arbuthnot, rh Mr James de Bois, Nick Gilmore, Sheila Munn, Meg Bacon, Mr Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Godsiff, Mr Roger Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bagshawe, Ms Louise Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Paul Baker, Steve Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Greatrex, Tom Murray, Ian Baldry, Tony Dorries, Nadine Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Baldwin, Harriett Doyle-Price, Jackie Greenwood, Lilian Nash, Pamela Barclay, Stephen Drax, Richard Griffith, Nia O’Donnell, Fiona Barker, Gregory Duddridge, James Gwynne, Andrew Onwurah, Chi Baron, Mr John Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hain, rh Mr Peter Osborne, Sandra Barwell, Gavin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hamilton, Fabian Perkins, Toby Bebb, Guto Dunne, Mr Philip Hanson, rh Mr David Phillipson, Bridget Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellis, Michael Havard, Mr Dai Pound, Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Ellison, Jane Healey, rh John Qureshi, Yasmin Benyon, Richard Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Beresford, Sir Paul Elphicke, Charlie Hillier, Meg Reed, Mr Jamie Berry, Jake Eustice, George Hilling, Julie Reeves, Rachel Binley, Mr Brian Evans, Graham Hodge, rh Margaret Reynolds, Emma Birtwistle, Gordon Evans, Jonathan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Blackman, Bob Fabricant, Michael Hood, Mr Jim Riordan, Mrs Linda Boles, Nick Farron, Tim Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, John Bradley, Karen Featherstone, Lynne Hunt, Tristram Rotheram, Steve Brady, Mr Graham Field, Mr Mark Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Mr Frank Brake, Tom Foster, rh Mr Don Jackson, Glenda Roy, Lindsay Bray, Angie Francois, rh Mr Mark James, Mrs Siân C. Ruane, Chris Brazier, Mr Julian Freeman, George Jamieson, Cathy Ruddock, rh Joan Bridgen, Andrew Freer, Mike Jarvis, Dan Sarwar, Anas Brine, Mr Steve Fuller, Richard Johnson, rh Alan Seabeck, Alison Brooke, Annette Gale, Mr Roger Garnier, Mr Edward Johnson, Diana Sharma, Mr Virendra Browne, Mr Jeremy Gauke, Mr David Jones, Graham Sheerman, Mr Barry Bruce, Fiona George, Andrew Jones, Helen Sheridan, Jim Bruce, rh Malcolm Gibb, Mr Nick Jones, Mr Kevan Shuker, Gavin Buckland, Mr Robert Jones, Susan Elan Skinner, Mr Dennis Gilbert, Stephen Burley, Mr Aidan Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Joyce, Eric Slaughter, Mr Andy Burns, Conor Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Smith, rh Mr Andrew Glen, John Burns, rh Mr Simon Keeley, Barbara Smith, Angela Goldsmith, Zac Burrowes, Mr David Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, Nick Goodwill, Mr Robert Burstow, Paul Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Owen Gove, rh Michael Burt, Alistair Lavery, Ian Spellar, rh Mr John Grant, Mrs Helen Lazarowicz, Mark Stringer, Graham Byles, Dan Gray, Mr James Leslie, Chris Stuart, Ms Gisela Cable, rh Vince Grayling, rh Chris Lewis, Mr Ivan Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Cameron, rh Mr David Green, Damian Lloyd, Tony Thomas, Mr Gareth Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Greening, Justine Lucas, Caroline Thornberry, Emily Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gummer, Ben Lucas, Ian Timms, rh Stephen Carmichael, Neil Gyimah, Mr Sam Mactaggart, Fiona Trickett, Jon Carswell, Mr Douglas Halfon, Robert Mahmood, Shabana Turner, Karl Cash, Mr William Hammond, Stephen Mann, John Twigg, Derek Chishti, Rehman Hancock, Matthew Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Stephen Chope, Mr Christopher Hancock, Mr Mike McCabe, Steve Umunna, Mr Chuka Clappison, Mr James Hands, Greg McCann, Mr Michael Vaz, rh Keith Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, Valerie Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harrington, Richard McClymont, Gregg Walley, Joan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca McDonagh, Siobhain Watson, Mr Tom Collins, Damian Harvey, Nick McDonnell, John Watts, Mr Dave Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McFadden, rh Mr Pat Whitehead, Dr Alan Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John McGovern, Alison Wicks, rh Malcolm Crabb, Stephen Heald, Oliver McGovern, Jim Wilson, Phil Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Winnick, Mr David Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John McKechin, Ann Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon 1261 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1262

Hendry, Charles Newton, Sarah Truss, Elizabeth Whittaker, Craig Herbert, rh Nick Nokes, Caroline Turner, Mr Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wiggin, Bill Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Uppal, Paul Williams, Mr Mark Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward Williams, Roger Hollobone, Mr Philip Osborne, rh Mr George Vara, Mr Shailesh Williams, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Vickers, Martin Williamson, Gavin Horwood, Martin Paice, rh Mr James Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Willott, Jenny Howarth, Mr Gerald Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Wilson, Mr Rob Howell, John Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Wollaston, Dr Sarah Huhne, rh Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walter, Mr Robert Wright, Simon Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Watkinson, Angela Yeo, Mr Tim Jackson, Mr Stewart Perry, Claire Weatherley, Mike Young, rh Sir George James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Webb, Steve Zahawi, Nadhim Javid, Sajid Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wharton, James Tellers for the Noes: Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Wheeler, Heather Jeremy Wright and Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel White, Chris Mark Hunter Jones, Andrew Pugh, John Jones, Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Mr John Question accordingly negatived. Kawczynski, Daniel Reckless, Mark Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Clause 2 Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan POWER OF MEMBERS OF STAFF AT SCHOOLS TO SEARCH Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm PUPILS Lamb, Norman Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Amendment made: 30, page 6, line 15, at end insert— Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rogerson, Dan ‘( ) In section 569 of EA 1996, in subsection (2A) (regulations Latham, Pauline Rosindell, Andrew subject to affirmative procedure), for “550ZA or 550ZC” substitute “550ZA(3)(f) or 550ZC(7)”.’.—(Mr Gibb.) Leadsom, Andrea Rudd, Amber Lee, Jessica Ruffley, Mr David Leech, Mr John Russell, Bob Clause 13 Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Leigh, Mr Edward Sanders, Mr Adrian Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura RESTRICTIONS ON REPORTING ALLEGED OFFENCES BY Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Scott, Mr Lee TEACHERS Lewis, Brandon Selous, Andrew Amendments made: 31, page 20, line 38, at end insert— Lewis, Dr Julian Shannon, Jim ‘( ) The restrictions in subsection (3) also cease to apply if— Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shapps, rh Grant Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sharma, Alok (a) the Secretary of State publishes information about the Lloyd, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec person who is the subject of the allegation in connection Lopresti, Jack Shepherd, Mr Richard with an investigation or decision under section 141B (investigation of disciplinary cases by Secretary of Lord, Jonathan Simmonds, Mark State) relating to the same allegation, or Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris (b) the General Teaching Council for Wales publishes Macleod, Mary Smith, Miss Chloe information about the person who is the subject of Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian the allegation in connection with an investigation, hearing or determination under Schedule 2 to the Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Teaching and Higher Education Act 1998 (investigation McCartney, Jason Soames, Nicholas of disciplinary cases by the General Teaching Council McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soubry, Anna for Wales) relating to the same allegation.’ McPartland, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark McVey, Esther Stanley, rh Sir John Amendment 32, page 21, line 4, at end insert ‘, or Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew (b) a document published by the regulator of a profession Mercer, Patrick Stevenson, John of which the person who is the subject of the allegation Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Bob is a member in connection with disciplinary proceedings Miller, Maria Stewart, Iain in relation to the person.’ Mills, Nigel Stewart, Rory Amendment 33, page 22, line 12, at end insert— Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary ‘( ) Schedule 4 (offence of breaching reporting restrictions: Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel application to providers of information society services) has Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham effect.’—(Mr Gibb.) Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, Andrew Morris, David Sturdy, Julian Morris, James Swales, Ian Clause 34 Mosley, Stephen Swayne, Mr Desmond Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert DUTIES IN RELATION TO SCHOOL ADMISSIONS Mulholland, Greg Tapsell, Sir Peter Mundell, rh David Teather, Sarah Amendment proposed: 13, page 33, line 14, leave out Munt, Tessa Thurso, John subsection (3) and insert— Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward ‘(3) For section 88J (changes to admission arrangements by Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin schools adjudicator) substitute— Newmark, Mr Brooks Tredinnick, David “88J Implementation of decisions by adjudicator 1263 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1264

(1) This section applies where the adjudicator has made a Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Mr Jim decision (‘the primary decision’)— Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul (a) under section 88H(4) on whether to uphold an Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian objection to admission arrangements, or Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa (b) under section 88I(4)(b) or (5)(b) on whether admission Havard, Mr Dai Nash, Pamela arrangements conform with the requirements relating Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona to admissions. Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi (2) If the admission authority has not amended its admission Hillier, Meg Osborne, Sandra arrangements within a period of 14 days of being notified of the Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby primary decision, the local authority for the area in which the Hodge, rh Margaret Phillipson, Bridget school is situated may direct appropriate changes to any aspect of Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen the admission arrangements in consequence of the primary Hood, Mr Jim Qureshi, Yasmin decision. Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick (3) Following the amendment of the admission arrangements Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Jamie by the admission authority following a primary decision, the Irranca-Davies, Huw Reeves, Rachel local authority for the area, if it considers that the changes to the Jackson, Glenda Reynolds, Emma admission arrangements are not consistent with the primary James, Mrs Siân C. Reynolds, Jonathan decision, may direct appropriate changes to any aspect of the Jamieson, Cathy Riordan, Mrs Linda admission arrangements in consequence of the primary decision. Jarvis, Dan Robertson, John (4) An admission authority which is subject to a direction Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve under subsections (2) or (3) may ask the adjudicator to set aside Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank the direction on the grounds that the changes to the admission Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay arrangements contained in the local authority’s direction are not Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris consistent with the primary decision.”.’.—(Kevin Brennan.) Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Question put, That the amendment be made. Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison The House divided: Ayes 211, Noes 305. Joyce, Eric Sharma, Mr Virendra Division No. 270] [6.15 pm Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheerman, Mr Barry Keeley, Barbara Sheridan, Jim Kendall, Liz Shuker, Gavin AYES Khan, rh Sadiq Skinner, Mr Dennis Abrahams, Debbie Curran, Margaret Lammy, rh Mr David Slaughter, Mr Andy Alexander, Heidi Dakin, Nic Lavery, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Allen, Mr Graham Danczuk, Simon Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Angela Ashworth, Jon Darling, rh Mr Alistair Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Austin, Ian David, Mr Wayne Lloyd, Tony Smith, Owen Bailey, Mr Adrian Davies, Geraint Lucas, Caroline Spellar, rh Mr John Bain, Mr William De Piero, Gloria Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Banks, Gordon Denham, rh Mr John Mactaggart, Fiona Stuart, Ms Gisela Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dobbin, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Beckett, rh Margaret Dobson, rh Frank Mann, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Begg, Dame Anne Docherty, Thomas Marsden, Mr Gordon Thornberry, Emily Benn, rh Hilary Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McCabe, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Berger, Luciana Doran, Mr Frank McCann, Mr Michael Trickett, Jon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dowd, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Turner, Karl Blenkinsop, Tom Doyle, Gemma McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek Blomfield, Paul Dromey, Jack McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Dugher, Michael McDonnell, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Durkan, Mark McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, rh Keith Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Ms Angela McGovern, Alison Vaz, Valerie Brown, Lyn Eagle, Maria McGovern, Jim Walley, Joan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Watson, Mr Tom Brown, Mr Russell Elliott, Julie McKechin, Ann Watts, Mr Dave Burnham, rh Andy Ellman, Mrs Louise McKinnell, Catherine Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Alan Engel, Natascha Meacher, rh Mr Michael Wicks, rh Malcolm Campbell, Mr Ronnie Esterson, Bill Meale, Mr Alan Williamson, Chris Caton, Martin Evans, Chris Mearns, Ian Wilson, Phil Chapman, Mrs Jenny Farrelly, Paul Michael, rh Alun Winnick, Mr David Clark, Katy Fitzpatrick, Jim Miller, Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flynn, Paul Mitchell, Austin Wood, Mike Clwyd, rh Ann Fovargue, Yvonne Moon, Mrs Madeleine Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Morden, Jessica Coaker, Vernon Francis, Dr Hywel Wright, David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Coffey, Ann Gapes, Mike Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, Rosie Gardiner, Barry Morris, Grahame M. Cooper, rh Yvette Gilmore, Sheila (Easington) Tellers for the Ayes: Corbyn, Jeremy Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Mark Hendrick and Creagh, Mary Godsiff, Mr Roger Munn, Meg Mr David Hamilton Creasy, Stella Goodman, Helen Cryer, John Greatrex, Tom NOES Cunningham, Alex Green, Kate Adams, Nigel Aldous, Peter Cunningham, Mr Jim Greenwood, Lilian Afriyie, Adam Amess, Mr David Cunningham, Tony Griffith, Nia 1265 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1266

Andrew, Stuart Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew Pugh, John Bacon, Mr Richard Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Bagshawe, Ms Louise Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Mr John Baker, Steve Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Reckless, Mark Baldry, Tony Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John Baldwin, Harriett Ellison, Jane Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Barclay, Stephen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Barker, Gregory Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Baron, Mr John Eustice, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Barwell, Gavin Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Bebb, Guto Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Beith, rh Sir Alan Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rogerson, Dan Bellingham, Mr Henry Fallon, Michael Latham, Pauline Rosindell, Andrew Benyon, Richard Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Rudd, Amber Beresford, Sir Paul Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Ruffley, Mr David Berry, Jake Field, Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Russell, Bob Binley, Mr Brian Foster, rh Mr Don Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Birtwistle, Gordon Francois, rh Mr Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Sanders, Mr Adrian Blackman, Bob Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura Boles, Nick Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Scott, Mr Lee Bone, Mr Peter Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Selous, Andrew Bradley, Karen Gale, Mr Roger Lewis, Dr Julian Shannon, Jim Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shapps, rh Grant Brake, Tom George, Andrew Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sharma, Alok Bray, Angie Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Brazier, Mr Julian Gilbert, Stephen Lopresti, Jack Shepherd, Mr Richard Bridgen, Andrew Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lord, Jonathan Simmonds, Mark Brine, Mr Steve Glen, John Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith Browne, Mr Jeremy Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris Bruce, Fiona Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Smith, Miss Chloe Bruce, rh Malcolm Gove, rh Michael Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian Buckland, Mr Robert Grant, Mrs Helen Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Burley, Mr Aidan Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Soames, Nicholas Burns, Conor Grayling, rh Chris McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soubry, Anna Burns, rh Mr Simon Green, Damian McPartland, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Burrowes, Mr David Greening, Justine McVey, Esther Stanley, rh Sir John Burstow, Paul Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Burt, Alistair Gummer, Ben Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Bob Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert Miller, Maria Stewart, Rory Cable, rh Vince Hammond, Stephen Mills, Nigel Streeter, Mr Gary Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Matthew Moore, rh Michael Stride, Mel Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hancock, Mr Mike Mordaunt, Penny Stuart, Mr Graham Carmichael, Neil Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Stunell, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Sturdy, Julian Cash, Mr William Harrington, Richard Morris, David Swales, Ian Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Swayne, Mr Desmond Chope, Mr Christopher Harvey, Nick Mosley, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mowat, David Tapsell, Sir Peter Clark, rh Greg Hayes, Mr John Mulholland, Greg Teather, Sarah Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heald, Oliver Mundell, rh David Thurso, John Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Timpson, Mr Edward Collins, Damian Hemming, John Murray, Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Murrison, Dr Andrew Tredinnick, David Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Truss, Elizabeth Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Newton, Sarah Turner, Mr Andrew Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Tyrie, Mr Andrew Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Uppal, Paul Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Nuttall, Mr David Vaizey, Mr Edward Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Vickers, Martin (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Osborne, rh Mr George Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Robin Davies, Philip Howarth, Mr Gerald Paice, rh Mr James Wallace, Mr Ben Davis, rh Mr David Howell, John Parish, Neil Walter, Mr Robert de Bois, Nick Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Watkinson, Angela Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Weatherley, Mike Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark Webb, Steve Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Jackson, Mr Stewart Perry, Claire Wharton, James Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Wheeler, Heather Dorries, Nadine Javid, Sajid Pickles, rh Mr Eric White, Chris Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Whittaker, Craig 1267 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1268

Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, Jeremy communities. It is also critical that the rights of Back Wiggin, Bill Wright, Simon Benchers who do not serve on Public Bill Committees Williams, Mr Mark Yeo, Mr Tim are protected, because this is the only opportunity we Williams, Roger Young, rh Sir George have to move and debate amendments. Williams, Stephen Zahawi, Nadhim Williamson, Gavin Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I understand Willott, Jenny Tellers for the Noes: why the hon. Gentleman is frustrated by his inability to Wilson, Mr Rob Mr Shailesh Vara and participate in debate on the amendments that were not Wollaston, Dr Sarah Mark Hunter reached, but the timetable motion was agreed by the House, and is completely outside any responsibility of Question accordingly negatived. the Chair. However, the hon. Gentleman has put his points on the record, and he may wish to catch my eye Clause 51 briefly during the Third Reading debate—if we reach it.

ACADEMY ARRANGEMENTS: POST-16 EDUCATION AND Kevin Brennan: Further to that point of order, Madam ALTERNATIVE PROVISION Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes Amendments made: 34, page 42, line 34, leave out and Harlington (John McDonnell) is right in saying from ‘not’ to end of line 36 and insert that we did not reach the last group of amendments, ‘otherwise receive suitable education for any period,’. which would have enabled us to discuss the Government’s proposal to allow teachers who are not qualified to Amendment 35, page 42, leave out lines 40 to 42 and teach in taxpayer-funded schools. That was part of a insert— sequence of events over the last few days which did not ‘(2) “Suitable education”, in relation to a child, means efficient allow the Opposition sufficient time to table amendments, education suitable to the child’s age, ability and aptitude and to or even to discuss some of those that had been tabled. any special educational needs the child may have.’.—(Mr Gibb.) The timetable was changed at the last minute on Thursday. Is there anything we can do to ensure that the Opposition Clause 65 are given more notice of the time at which the Government intend to bring a Bill to the House, not least when it THE APPRENTICESHIP OFFER changes at the last minute? Amendments made: 36, page 51, line 5, leave out ‘sections 83B and 83C’ and insert ‘section 83B’. Madam Deputy Speaker: I think I understand the gist Amendment 37, page 52, leave out lines 26 to 35.— of the hon. Gentleman’s point of order. As he well (Mr Gibb.) knows, and as I made clear in response to the point of order raised by his hon. Friend the hon. Member for Clause 76 Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), the House voted on the timetable. As for discussions between the COMMENCEMENT parties, that too is not a matter for the Chair. I feel that Amendment made: 38, page 57, line 9, at end insert— we are continuing the debate via points of order rather than embarking on the Third Reading debate, but I am ‘(f) section [Charges at boarding Academies].’.— (Mr Gibb.) sure that Members will find other ways in which to make their points during that debate. Third Reading Schedule 14

ACADEMIES: LAND 6.31 pm Amendment made: 39, page 112, line 24, at end insert— Mr Gibb: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the ‘() in the opening words, for “subsections (4) and” Third time. substitute “subsection”;’.—(Mr Gibb.) Let me begin by thanking all Members on both sides of the House who served on the Bill Committee. As 6.28 pm with all the best Bill Committees, it was always good- John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): On a humoured and good-natured, and it included thorough point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a result of scrutiny of each of the Bill’s 79 clauses and 17 or the programme motion and the flow of debate, we have 18 schedules. In barely a month we had 22 sittings, even failed to reach the final batch of amendments, which more than the Committee considering the mammoth deal with the education work force. About 13,000 workers Bill that became the last Government’s Apprenticeships, will have their employee organisations abolished as a Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, which, with result of this legislation and will be insecure in their 270 clauses, was well over three times the size. We also future employment. Tens of thousands of others will reached the final clause with time left over to debate also be affected by the Bill. This batch of amendments new clauses as well, which is rare for any Bill Committee. was designed to deal with those issues and give those It is therefore only right and proper for me to pay education workers some form of security for the future. tribute to the Minister for Further Education, Skills Now that we have failed to reach those amendments, and Lifelong Learning, my hon. Friend the Member for may I through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, ask South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), as well Mr Speaker to bring together the party leaders to to officials in the two Departments and officials of the discuss again the preparation of programme motions so House. that we do not again fail to reach important amendments—I Having spent 13 years in opposition, I know from accept that we did under previous Governments—that first-hand experience how demanding a Committee stage affect so many of our constituents and members of our can be for Opposition spokesmen, so let me also thank 1269 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1270 the hon. Members for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) and for We are determined to raise the professional status of Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) for the professional way teachers by giving them the space and flexibility they in which they fulfilled their responsibilities. need. Since the Academies Act 2010 the number of The Education Bill has four principal aims: to help academies has more than trebled, from 203 to 658. All schools improve behaviour in the classroom, to remove those schools are able to decide what is best to raise bureaucratic burdens from schools and, in particular, standards for their pupils, free from red tape and political from teachers by restoring trust in professionals, to interference. That is why it has attracted not only Toby ensure that schools are properly accountable to parents Young, but Peter Hyman, Tony Blair’s former director and local communities for what they do, and to ensure of strategy and author of the autobiographical book, that the resources that we have are distributed fairly and “1 out of 10: from Downing street vision to classroom targeted towards those pupils that need them the most. reality”. Peter Hyman is setting up a free school in Newham. Newham School 21 will teach children between Kevin Brennan: May I ask whether the Secretary of the ages of four and 18 and aims to be open in September State’s absence is authorised or unauthorised? 2012. The Bill provides for two new types of academies: alternative provision academies, and 16-to-19 academies, Mr Gibb: I find it upsetting when people complain which will extend the benefits of the programme even about my presence in debates. Frankly, I think that the further. hon. Gentleman has secured a very good deal. The Opposition have complained that the Bill centralises There is no bigger barrier to the recruitment and power, yet at the same time they complain when we strip retention of good teachers than poor pupil behaviour. back the layers of instruction and guidance telling Figures published last month showed that in nearly one schools and colleges how to co-operate, which they in five secondary schools, behaviour is judged as being put in place. Similarly, they protest when we end the no better than satisfactory. In the latest year for which requirement on every local authority to set up forums, we have figures there were over 363,000 fixed-period irrespective of their actual needs or unique circumstances. exclusions, of which 80,000 were issued for threatening The Bill will help us bring an end to the perpetual behaviour or verbal abuse against an adult. Recent polls revolution that has been inflicted upon schools, by by the Association of Teachers and Lecturers found allowing professionals—not the Qualifications and that two in five teachers had dealt with physical aggression Curriculum Development Agency or the General Teaching during that year, and that a quarter had been subjected Council—to do what is best for them. to a false allegation by a pupil. That underlines the fact that too many teachers have been hindered in doing Just as we are liberating professionals from bureaucracy, their jobs because of poor behaviour. I fully understand so we are ensuring that there is stronger accountability why teachers have felt that the system, and the Government, to parents. The Bill will sharpen school accountability have not always been on their side. The Education Bill by reducing the number of areas in which Ofsted inspects will ensure that the pendulum swings back in their to just four—pupil achievement, quality of teaching, favour by strengthening teachers’ powers. They will be leadership and management, and behaviour and safety— able to issue same-day detentions, and to search for, and with outstanding schools and colleges also being freed confiscate, items such as mobile phones and video from routine inspection, so that more focus can be cameras. We considered these measures in detail in diverted towards those that need it most. Committee. I hope they are used only very rarely, but I The independent regulator, Ofqual, will ensure that would rather teachers were able to decide for themselves our qualifications stand comparison with the best in the whether to use them and I am confident that they will world by measuring our relative performance. Because help protect the rights of all children to learn in an we are prepared to take action where schools and local environment free from disruption and bullying. authorities fail to give children their one chance of a Just as importantly, the Bill will also extend better good education, the Bill strengthens the Government’s protection to teachers from false and malicious allegations. power to intervene in poorly performing schools, which Teachers will now have pre-charge anonymity when often have higher proportions of disadvantaged pupils. faced with an allegation of an offence by a pupil, to The Minister for children, my hon. Friend the Member prevent false accusations being used to undermine teachers’ for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), is introducing an authority. Teachers have campaigned for that for years, entitlement to free early-years provision for 130,000 and it has been delivered by this Government in our disadvantaged two-year-olds across the country. The first year. Of course, we will continue to listen to those scrutiny in Committee has allowed us to set out clearly who seek to extend these provisions to other staff in that we will maintain the free entitlement for all three schools and colleges, but we also need to tread carefully and four-year-olds at 15 hours, and that we will ask in relation to cherished rights of free speech in a free Ofsted to review the impact of the two-year entitlement. society. We are also ensuring that more resources are targeted Discipline is just one area in which teachers have not at the education of the poorest through the pupil premium, been afforded the trust and respect they deserve. Over which will be worth £2.5 billion every year by 2014-15, the past decade, for every step forward, there have been and the Bill will ensure that funding for apprenticeship three steps backwards as yet more targets and diktats training takes priority when young people have a place, were issued to schools from the centre. Understandably, so that we deliver on our ambitions to expand the much of the debate in Committee was about whether to programme and make it the primary work-based learning retain the legislation that piled up under the previous route for raising the participation age. Thanks to the Government. I do not doubt that much of that was vigilance and scrutiny of the Chairman of the Education well-intentioned, but it has clearly failed to address the Committee, we have now removed a reserve power to performance gap this country faces, especially for those suspend this offer, which underlines our commitment from disadvantaged backgrounds. further. In addition, the scrutiny provided and arguments 1271 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1272

[Mr Gibb] autonomy to providers, be they general practitioners or hospitals in the health sector or head teachers and put forward by my hon. Friends the Members for North schools in the education sector, they have to balance Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) and for Wells (Tessa Munt) that with a corresponding empowerment of the public— on the issue of school governors and the proposals in parent and patient guarantees—and more ability for clause 37 have allowed us to improve our policy in this service users to hold providers to account. That is what area. We have retained the principle of governor is completely absent from the Government’s vision: this appointments based primarily on skills, while also meeting is a provider-led reform with an accountability deficit. their desire to reflect stakeholder groups with an interest The health reforms have been paused, partly because in schools, in particular staff and local authorities. of fears that the system being created lacks moderating The schools White Paper, “The Importance of Teaching”, checks and balances. Many people working in education, set out a pathway to close the attainment gap between who will be watching these proceedings, have exactly those from the poorest and wealthiest backgrounds, the same fears about these schools reforms, but sadly and to reverse this country’s decline in international the House, in its votes this evening, has failed to respond performance tables, so that all who are educated in our to them. This is a right-wing reform of our education state schools have the opportunity to compete with the system, a ripping up of the fabric and frameworks that school leavers and graduates of countries with the have stood our services and our children in good stead best-performing education systems. This Education Bill for years. will allow us to take important steps on that journey, Tory Cabinet Ministers are now boasting about this and I commend it to the House. radical right-wing agenda. Iain Duncan Smith has said: “We’ve got a lot—my welfare reforms, the education reforms…all Mr Speaker: May I gently point out to the shadow of these are big, big Conservative-driven themes.” Secretary of State, as I equally could to the Minister, that there are Back Benchers who would also like to I believe he said that today. William Hague went as far contribute and that would help the House? as admitting that the Lib Dems were crucial—

6.41 pm Mr Speaker: May I say to the shadow Secretary of State that he is quite an experienced Member, and he Andy Burnham: Thank you, Mr Speaker. should not refer to serving Members of the House by The Secretary of State’s first Bill was rammed through name? with unseemly haste, under procedures normally reserved for counter-terrorism measures, when the odour in the Andy Burnham: You are absolutely right, Mr Speaker, rose garden was still pleasant and Labour leadership and I apologise. candidates were still on the hustings, so we can at least The right hon. Member—I am struggling to remember say that this Bill has had a more thorough airing. I his constituency now—[HON.MEMBERS: “Richmond.”] therefore thank the members of the Public Bill Committee That is it; I was going to say for North Yorkshire. The for their work on it, and I thank the Officials, Officers right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) and other staff of the House who have enabled the said: Committee’s work to take place. I also pay tribute to my “A Conservative government with a very small majority or in a hon. Friends the Members for Cardiff West (Kevin minority would have been massively constrained in what we could Brennan) and for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), who have take through parliament.” done an excellent job. There we have it: this is a right-wing agenda propped up The schools Minister has been assiduous in his replies, by the Liberal Democrats. and I thank him for that, but his courtesy has not extended to the production of the essential documents, We heard today a bid from the hon. Member for such as the draft admissions code, that are needed to Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady), supported by give this Bill the fullest possible scrutiny. That is highly 35 colleagues on his side of the House, to extend regrettable—it is insulting, even, to Members of this selection to our state education system. We know that House—and I trust that the same discourtesies will not the Secretary of State, although he could not be here be repeated towards Members of another place. Talking this evening, attended a reception in Parliament—I of discourtesies, it is a shame that the Secretary of State think it was just before Christmas—where the hon. could not dignify us with his presence this evening. He Gentleman asked him whether he would extend selection made a cameo appearance earlier, but he obviously has through his free school movement. The Secretary of something more important to do than be here to see his State said: own Bill through. I do not know whether he has a good “My foot is hovering over the pedal; I’ll have to see what my reason—perhaps he does—but we should have been co-driver Nick Clegg has to say”. able to expect him to be here. Those of us who read Mrs Gove’s entertaining columns Like the Health and Social Care Bill, the Education in the newspaper know what happens when the Secretary Bill threatens a free-for-all in our public services. It is a of State puts his foot on the pedal: utter chaos and reckless gamble with standards and with the life chances disruption ensues for anybody in his vicinity. In this of our children, with no evidence to support it. That is case, I think the co-pilot would be better off getting out why we will vote against it tonight. Our principal objection of the car before the Secretary of State puts his foot to it is based on the fact that it takes power away from down on the pedal—but as we know, the co-pilot is still parents and pupils and hands it back to providers and unfortunately locked in the boot. to the centre, in the form of the Secretary of State. That We were expecting a bit of muscular Liberalism is the flaw at the heart of the Government’s vision for today—indeed, we were promised it—but sadly there public service reform. If they give more freedom and was none. It was just as we suspected. Parents watching 1273 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1274 this debate want to know that their child has a fair 6.49 pm chance of getting into the school that they choose, that Stephen McPartland: I will be very brief, Mr Speaker— they will have good teachers, and will be able to get two minutes or less, I promise. I was a member of the good careers advice to support them in their choices. Public Bill Committee, which was my first such Committee, Instead, they are getting a free-for-all with no guarantees, and I was pleased by how robust its scrutiny of the Bill a weakening of the admissions system, unqualified was, and by the good humour shown by Opposition and teachers in state schools and a withering away of face-to-face Government Front Benchers throughout its mammoth careers advice. 22 sessions. There was certainly cross-party consensus I am sorry that we did not get the chance tonight that we wanted our children to have access to the best to move an amendment, which my hon. Friend the education system in the world. That is why I believe the Member for Cardiff West was going to take on, about Bill is important—because it promises to raise educational the need to have qualified teachers in our state schools. I attainment for the poorest children in my constituency. hope that Members of the other place will return to that The gap in educational attainment between poorer pupils issue to stop this risky gamble with standards in our and their peers simply is not acceptable. We know that schools. by the age of seven the highest early achievers from The Bill exposes a curious contradiction in this Secretary deprived backgrounds are overtaken by lower-achieving of State’s approach to school reform. He has not decided children from advantaged backgrounds, and that that yet whether he truly believes in freedom and really gap gets wider as they get older. That traps children in a wants local people to get on and do the job that they cycle of poverty. We cannot measure poverty solely in want—as the Minister just said he did—or whether he monetary terms; there is real poverty of education in wants to dictate to them what they must do and how many parts of the country, which leads to a lack of they must do their jobs. We have an Education Secretary opportunity and aspiration. who preaches freedom, but then wants to dictate the The Government’s commitment to expanding early books that children read in primary school. He says years learning for disadvantaged children is a welcome that teachers know best, but then demands that they use step in reducing that poverty of education, and that synthetic phonics to teach reading. He lauds professional commitment is firmly reinforced by the pupil premium, autonomy, but makes it clear which subjects he approves which means an investment of more than £815,000 this of in his English baccalaureate and which are second year in the most disadvantaged children in my constituency. best. That is not good enough: he needs to decide. If he That money can be used by schools to provide additional wants teachers to get on with their job, he should let support such as one-to-one tuition, which I know from them do it. We should not have this contradiction at the my wife’s experience as a primary school teacher makes heart of policy that is causing people across the country a dramatic difference to young children. I support the to lose patience with him. Bill because I believe it will deliver a massive boost to I gather that the Secretary of State is downstairs at the education of the most disadvantaged and vulnerable a function or party this evening. I find it hard to believe children in my constituency. that he is not here to speak up for his own Bill, to defend it and to tell us why I am wrong and why he 6.51 pm has the right vision for our schools. The fact that he is not here means that he cannot face this House to Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Given the time, I ask for the 50 powers that he is taking in the Bill. We shall speak very briefly about the Bill, which is bad in so might have thought—might we not?—that he would many ways. The Government talk about giving power have the courtesy to come and ask the House for those to parents and teachers, but at every turn they remove powers. It is a sorry state of affairs, and shows something powers from parents and communities and give them to of the arrogance that increasingly characterises the the Secretary of State. The Bill does not build, but Government. destroys. It encourages schools to be islands rather than resources in the community that can bring agencies I believe that the Secretary of State is failing to take together for the benefit of children and young people. the education profession with him. They need stability The Bill also misses opportunities. It is good that it and he is providing chaos. He is losing the confidence of provides for the anonymity of teachers, but why does it head teachers and teachers. The Education Bill will now not extend that anonymity to other school staff, who move to the other place and I know that their lordships are often more vulnerable than teachers to accusations? will seek to moderate it, protecting fairness and promoting high standards in every school for every child. I urge There are three other areas in which the Bill misses them to do so and to give the Bill the fullest possible opportunities. First, by getting rid of the school support scrutiny, because this House of Commons, as it has staff negotiating body it does a real disservice to 500,000 shown today, is in danger of sleepwalking towards an generally low-paid workers. That body has been working elitist two-tier education system that will be good for on job descriptions and job gradings for 100 strands of some children and some schools, but not all children work within schools, from the work of classroom assistants and all schools. to that of school bursars and caretakers. Its work was stopped last year when the Government pre-empted the Bill by saying that the body was going to be removed. I Several hon. Members rose— seriously hope that they will reconsider their decision and allow the body at least to complete its work, and Mr Speaker: Order. There are 11 minutes to go and support it in doing so. several Members who wish to participate. Extreme brevity Secondly, my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow would facilitate the maximum number of Back-Bench (Stella Creasy) and I tabled an amendment that would contributions. have given schools a duty to facilitate positive activities 1275 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1276

[Julie Hilling] public sector to the private sector. They would be protected, together with their conditions of work, the recognition for young people. There have been some fantastic examples of their trade union and their basic employment rights. of youth work in schools, usually in partnership with Because that does not apply to transfers of staff within youth services and other agencies, but cuts in youth the public sector, the Cabinet Office introduced the services and central funding streams have made that Cabinet Office statement of practice—COSOP—which work difficult. I hope that the Government will consider in the past has been included in legislation so that how they can support youth work, either through the TUPE principles applied to staff as if they were being Bill or elsewhere. transferred out of the public sector. The previous Finally, the Government have missed a real opportunity Government stated that on the face of the Bill that that to save lives. It is not often that any Government get the was the situation when the Learning and Skills Council opportunity to do something simply, easily, cheaply and was abolished. The present Government have done the immediately that would save lives, but this Government same thing in the Localism Bill, but not in the Education have that opportunity. If they introduced emergency Bill. As a result, the staff are feeling insecure about their life skills into the national curriculum they could make future. That affects morale and recruitment and retention— a real difference. ELS is a set of actions that save lives, including cardiopulmonary resuscitation and dealing Mr Gibb: We are committed to applying the principles with choking and bleeding. Every year 150,000 people of the Cabinet Office statement of practice, which has die in situations in which first aid could have made a been agreed with the trade unions. I hope that helps the difference. Each year in the UK 30,000 people have a hon. Gentleman. cardiac arrest outside the hospital environment, of whom fewer than 10% survive. Children are often present at John McDonnell: It is incredibly helpful to have that accidents and emergencies, and by learning emergency on the record. It would be valuable if the Minister could life skills they can be as effective as any adult in saving see whether it could be put on the face of the Bill when lives. If someone has a cardiac arrest in Seattle they it goes to another place. have a great chance of surviving, because children there are taught ELS as part of their national curriculum. 6.57 pm Indeed, people cannot graduate from school or pass their driving test unless they learn ELS. If any Member Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): In is going to have a cardiac arrest they should have it in supporting the Bill on Third Reading, I want to put Seattle, because they would rarely be more than 12 feet particular emphasis on clause 13 and the restrictions away from someone who could save their life. Why can that will be imposed on the reporting of the identity of we not have that situation in the UK? If we did, we teachers between arrest and charge. I welcome those could save lives. I hope that the Government will reconsider provisions and I read with interest the debate in the that and put ELS into the national curriculum. Public Bill Committee, where the Government rightly pointed out the lack of evidence to support an extension 6.54 pm to other classes of person who work within the school environment. Stephen Phillips: I shall keep my contribution extremely brief. I speak as a former chair of governors at a special However, I urge the Government to keep that position school for the deaf—one of the only remaining sign under review. I remember a debate that we had in the bilingual schools in the country.The issue that I particularly House some months ago on a private Member’s Bill want to address is school discipline. That is so central to about the wider application of reporting restrictions for the learning environment and to outcomes that it is a people arrested but not charged, with particular reference great shame that it has not been dealt with by previous to teaching assistants and other people who come into Administrations. It is for that reason, if for no other, the school environment. It is important that we bear that the Bill will receive my full support. that mind. As anyone who chaired a governing body under the Finally, I ask the Government to bear in mind the previous law knows, the difficulty with the regime that problem that arises when a pupil who has left the existed was that when a head teacher excluded a pupil school, perhaps only very recently, makes a complaint the exclusion was often overturned by the governing against a teacher. I urge my colleagues on the Front body, because it knew that if it did not overturn it, the Bench to work with other Ministers, particularly the exclusion would subsequently be overturned by the extensive Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member appeal mechanisms that are amended by the Bill. It is for Reigate (Mr Blunt), in reviewing the application of for that reason that I welcome the amendments that the the law of contempt of court to sensitive issues relating Government are introducing in that respect. to press freedom and the interests of professionals and all those who work in school and college environments. 6.56 pm John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The 6.58 pm Bill abolishes a number of bodies—the General Teaching Meg Munn: This is a disappointing Bill. It will not do Council for England, the Training and Development what an Education Bill should do—put children and Agency for Schools, the Qualifications and Curriculum their education first. That means every child. The mantra, Development Agency and the Young People’s Learning “We must trust the professionals,” is not balanced by Agency. respect for children and parents. The powers of search In the past the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection are at best misguided and at worst dangerous. No-notice of Employment) Regulations were applied when bodies detention is a potential nightmare for hundreds of were abolished and staff were transferred from the young carers throughout the country, and it is unnecessary. 1277 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1278

The approach to exclusions is unbalanced, putting at Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan risk the education of many children with special educational Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim needs. No attention has been given to child protection Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen issues in the Ofsted framework that is out for consultation. Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary While Ministers are publishing the welcome Munro Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne review on child protection and looking to strengthen Green, Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Greening, Justine Maynard, Paul that, the Bill makes matters worse. Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne 7pm Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 8 February). Hague, rh Mr William McPartland, Stephen The Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the Bill Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Hammond, Stephen Mercer, Patrick be now read the Third time. Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen The House divided: Ayes 305, Noes 204. Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, Maria Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Division No. 271] [7 pm Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Harrington, Richard Mordaunt, Penny AYES Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Adams, Nigel Chope, Mr Christopher Harvey, Nick Morris, Anne Marie Afriyie, Adam Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, David Aldous, Peter Clark, rh Greg Hayes, Mr John Morris, James Alexander, rh Danny Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heald, Oliver Mosley, Stephen Amess, Mr David Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Andrew, Stuart Collins, Damian Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Bacon, Mr Richard Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Bagshawe, Ms Louise Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Baker, Steve Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Baldry, Tony Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Baldwin, Harriett Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Barclay, Stephen Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Barker, Gregory (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Baron, Mr John Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Barwell, Gavin Davies, Philip Howarth, Mr Gerald Ollerenshaw, Eric Bebb, Guto Davis, rh Mr David Howell, John Ottaway, Richard Beith, rh Sir Alan de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon Paice, rh Mr James Bellingham, Mr Henry Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Parish, Neil Benyon, Richard Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Patel, Priti Beresford, Sir Paul Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Berry, Jake Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Perry, Claire Binley, Mr Brian Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Phillips, Stephen Birtwistle, Gordon Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Pickles, rh Mr Eric Blackman, Bob Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher Boles, Nick Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Poulter, Dr Daniel Bone, Mr Peter Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Joseph Pugh, John Bradley, Karen Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Brady, Mr Graham Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Brake, Tom Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Reckless, Mark Bray, Angie Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Redwood, rh Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bridgen, Andrew Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Reevell, Simon Brine, Mr Steve Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Reid, Mr Alan Brooke, Annette Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Browne, Mr Jeremy Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Bruce, Fiona Fallon, Michael Lamb, Norman Robertson, Mr Laurence Bruce, rh Malcolm Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Rogerson, Dan Buckland, Mr Robert Featherstone, Lynne Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Field, Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Rudd, Amber Burns, Conor Foster, rh Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Ruffley, Mr David Burns, rh Mr Simon Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Russell, Bob Burrowes, Mr David Freeman, George Leech, Mr John Rutley, David Burstow, Paul Freer, Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Sanders, Mr Adrian Burt, Alistair Fuller, Richard Leigh, Mr Edward Sandys, Laura Burt, Lorely Gale, Mr Roger Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Scott, Mr Lee Byles, Dan George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Selous, Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Dr Julian Shannon, Jim Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shapps, rh Grant Carmichael, Neil Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sharma, Alok Carswell, Mr Douglas Glen, John Lloyd, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Cash, Mr William Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Shepherd, Mr Richard 1279 Education Bill11 MAY 2011 Education Bill 1280

Simmonds, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Goodman, Helen Morris, Grahame M. Simpson, Mr Keith Uppal, Paul Greatrex, Tom (Easington) Skidmore, Chris Vaizey, Mr Edward Green, Kate Mudie, Mr George Smith, Miss Chloe Vickers, Martin Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Smith, Julian Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul Smith, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Robin Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Soames, Nicholas Wallace, Mr Ben Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Soubry, Anna Walter, Mr Robert Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Spencer, Mr Mark Watkinson, Angela Havard, Mr Dai O’Donnell, Fiona Stanley, rh Sir John Weatherley, Mike Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi Stephenson, Andrew Webb, Steve Hendrick, Mark Osborne, Sandra Stevenson, John Wharton, James Hepburn, Mr Stephen Perkins, Toby Stewart, Bob Wheeler, Heather Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Stewart, Iain White, Chris Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen Stewart, Rory Whittaker, Craig Hood, Mr Jim Qureshi, Yasmin Streeter, Mr Gary Wiggin, Bill Hopkins, Kelvin Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Stride, Mel Williams, Mr Mark Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Jamie Stuart, Mr Graham Williams, Roger Irranca-Davies, Huw Reeves, Rachel Stunell, Andrew Williams, Stephen Jackson, Glenda Reynolds, Emma Sturdy, Julian Williamson, Gavin James, Mrs Siân Reynolds, Jonathan Swales, Ian Willott, Jenny C. Riordan, Mrs Linda Swayne, Mr Desmond Wilson, Mr Rob Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wollaston, Dr Sarah Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve Syms, Mr Robert Wright, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Mr Frank Johnson, Diana Roy, Lindsay Tapsell, Sir Peter Wright, Simon Teather, Sarah Jones, Graham Ruane, Chris Young, rh Sir George Thurso, John Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Zahawi, Nadhim Timpson, Mr Edward Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Tomlinson, Justin Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Susan Elan Sharma, Mr Virendra Tredinnick, David Mr Shailesh Vara and Joyce, Eric Sheerman, Mr Barry Turner, Mr Andrew Mark Hunter Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheridan, Jim Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin NOES Kendall, Liz Skinner, Mr Dennis Khan, rh Sadiq Slaughter, Mr Andy Abrahams, Debbie Cunningham, Alex Lavery, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Alexander, Heidi Cunningham, Mr Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Angela Allen, Mr Graham Cunningham, Tony Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Ashworth, Jon Curran, Margaret Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Owen Austin, Ian Dakin, Nic Lloyd, Tony Spellar, rh Mr John Bailey, Mr Adrian Danczuk, Simon Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Bain, Mr William Darling, rh Mr Alistair Stringer, Graham Lucas, Caroline Stuart, Ms Gisela Balls, rh Ed David, Mr Wayne Lucas, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Banks, Gordon Davies, Geraint MacShane, rh Mr Denis Thomas, Mr Gareth Barron, rh Mr Kevin De Piero, Gloria Mactaggart, Fiona Thornberry, Emily Beckett, rh Margaret Denham, rh Mr John Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Begg, Dame Anne Dobbin, Jim Mann, John Benn, rh Hilary Dobson, rh Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Berger, Luciana Docherty, Thomas McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Blackman-Woods, Roberta Donohoe, Mr Brian McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Blenkinsop, Tom H. McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Stephen Blomfield, Paul Dowd, Jim McClymont, Gregg Umunna, Mr Chuka Blunkett, rh Mr David Doyle, Gemma McDonagh, Siobhain Vaz, rh Keith Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dromey, Jack McDonnell, John Vaz, Valerie Brennan, Kevin Dugher, Michael McFadden, rh Mr Pat Walley, Joan Brown, Lyn Durkan, Mark McGovern, Alison Watts, Mr Dave Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Eagle, Ms Angela McGovern, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Maria McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wicks, rh Malcolm Burnham, rh Andy Efford, Clive McKechin, Ann Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Alan Elliott, Julie McKinnell, Catherine Wilson, Phil Campbell, Mr Ronnie Ellman, Mrs Louise Meacher, rh Mr Michael Winnick, Mr David Caton, Martin Engel, Natascha Meale, Mr Alan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Chapman, Mrs Jenny Esterson, Bill Mearns, Ian Wood, Mike Michael, rh Alun Clark, Katy Evans, Chris Wright, David Miller, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Tom Farrelly, Paul Wright, Mr Iain Clwyd, rh Ann Fitzpatrick, Jim Mitchell, Austin Coaker, Vernon Fovargue, Yvonne Moon, Mrs Madeleine Tellers for the Noes: Coffey, Ann Francis, Dr Hywel Morden, Jessica Mr David Hamilton and Cooper, Rosie Gapes, Mike Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Lilian Greenwood Cooper, rh Yvette Gardiner, Barry Corbyn, Jeremy Gilmore, Sheila Question accordingly agreed to. Creagh, Mary Glindon, Mrs Mary Bill read the Third time and passed. Creasy, Stella Godsiff, Mr Roger 1281 Education Bill 11 MAY 2011 1282

Kevin Brennan: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You Common Consolidated Corporate Tax will have noted that the Secretary of State was not Base present for the Third Reading of the Education Bill. I wonder whether you can give any advice as to whether, [Relevant document: The Twenty-seventh Report from when a Secretary of State does not turn up for the Third the European Scrutiny Committee, HC 428-xxv.] Reading of their own Bill, which I think is quite unusual, any information should be given to the House, or 7.14 pm possibly as a courtesy to the shadow Secretary of State or Opposition Front Benchers, as to why they are not The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine here. We understand that the Secretary of State, who is Greening): I beg to move, apparently now standing somewhere nearby at the Bar That this House considers that the Draft Directive to introduce of the House, was available to come here. Are there any a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base (European Union procedures by which it would be normal for the Secretary Document No. 7263/11) does not comply with the principle of of State to give notice that he is not going to participate subsidiarity, for the reasons set out in chapter 2 of the Twenty-seventh on Third Reading? Report of the European Scrutiny Committee (HC 428-xxv); and, in accordance with Article 6 of the Protocol on the application of Mr Speaker: The short answer to the hon. Gentleman the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, instructs the Clerk of the House to forward this reasoned opinion to the is no. Any Minister can provide a rationale or an presidents of the European institutions. explanation for presence or absence if he or she so chooses, but there is no formal procedure for so doing. I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss this The question of who appears on behalf of those on the European Commission proposal, which, as the House is Treasury Bench is purely a matter for them, not a aware, is potentially significant. I will highlight a few matter for the Chair. The hon. Gentleman has nevertheless general points before turning to the specific legal and registered his point. treaty issues which the European Scrutiny Committee has raised in its report and which are the subject of the motion. I want to start by reiterating the Government’s commitment to ensuring that there is no further transfer of sovereignty or powers to the EU over the course of the Parliament. I also stress that the Government have made it clear that we will not agree to a proposal that might threaten or limit the UK’s ability to shape its own tax policy. I know that the motion focuses on whether the proposal complies with subsidiarity and proportionality, which are both important questions that I will address in turn.

Mr John Redwood (Wokingham)(Con): This is extremely good news from the Minister. Will she confirm that the UK will not consent to the so-called six-pack measures on economic governance, of which at least three clearly apply to non-euro members and represent a transfer of powers?

Justine Greening: As my right hon. Friend will be aware, important discussions on economic governance are under way and are being resolved. I assure him that we have no intention, as I have said, of seeing any further powers transferred to Brussels. We keep a watching brief on not only the topic that we are discussing, but across the board. I am sure he is aware of a number of areas in which we are expressing concerns to the Commission, because we are concerned that further powers may be taken by Brussels.

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Has my hon. Friend noticed that Her Majesty’s official Opposition do not seem to care much about this matter? I cannot see anybody other than the shadow Minister on the Labour Benches.

Justine Greening: Perhaps the actions of Labour Members demonstrate how ashamed they are that their Government gave away much of the rebate that the Conservative party, which is now part of the coalition Government, had achieved for our country. 1283 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1284 Tax Base Tax Base Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I am tempted functioning of the European Union provides for EU to remind my hon. Friend that the rebate that the legislation that directly affects the single market. In Labour party gave away cost more than £9 billion. I strict legal terms, it is possible to make a case that that think that this question follows from what she has said: article is an acceptable legal base for a proposal such as do the Government take the view that the draft directive that that we are discussing, but the Government have would amount to a substantial transfer of power and broader reservations. We do not believe that a common sovereignty to the EU, if it were implemented? consolidated corporate tax base is necessary for the internal market to function effectively, and we do not Justine Greening: At the moment, the directive is in accept the assumptions that appear to underpin the such a rough draft that it is not exactly clear in what Commission’s proposal. At present, we are therefore shape it will end up. Important questions are already not convinced that the proposal is consistent with either being asked not only by the UK but by countries such subsidiarity or proportionality. In this instance, we think as the Netherlands and Sweden, and by some smaller it difficult to separate the two, because both centre on and newer member states such as Lithuania. They are whether such an EU mechanism is necessary to achieve asking whether there is a problem that needs to be the objectives set out by the Commission. solved in the first place and whether the European Commission’s hypothesis about why a common consolidated corporate tax base is required is correct. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Establishing the legal base is absolutely The second debate that is starting to happen in earnest crucial before the Government engage in negotiations across Europe is about whether this solution is the best about the form of the directive. May I draw the Economic solution to solve that problem. The Government’s position Secretary’s attention to conclusion 2.12 of the European is that we do not believe that the problem exists in the Scrutiny Committee’s report? It clearly states that the form that the European Commission articulates, and ability for the single market to have taxes refers to that this solution would not be the right solution to that turnover taxes and VAT, and not to the type of tax problem, even if it did exist. included in the directive. If there is no legal base for the tax, is there any point in having further discussion? Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con) rose— Justine Greening: Our assessment is that it is possible Justine Greening: Perhaps if I make a little more to make the case that because article 115 of the TFEU progress, it will help hon. Members to understand the relates to the effective functioning of the single market, Government’s position in a little more detail and where it is relevant to consider whether the proposal would we are in the proposal’s development, which it is important affect the single market. There is also the question to understand. It is also important to understand whether there is any problem that needs to be addressed. Parliament’s role in the process, which is the whole We do not accept that there is, but if there were, we point of this debate. would have to ask whether the proposal was the right A number of issues need to be addressed in the policy solution. That is what I mean when I talk about substance of this proposal. Those issues will have to be proportionality. We must also consider subsidiarity, discussed among all 27 member states. That is why we and we do not believe that the two can simply be have committed to engage in the ongoing EU discussions separated, because they go hand in hand. on this proposal. It is important that the UK participates fully in the negotiations, so that we can seek solutions For the Government to be reassured that the proposal that meet the interests of the UK and the EU as a complies with the fundamental principles of proportionality whole. Although the issues of subsidiarity and and subsidiarity, we would require far stronger justification proportionality are fundamental, we need to be ready from the Commission. We would need evidence that the to engage fully in the negotiations that are starting in existence of 27 different tax systems is a significant Brussels. We need to engage not only in Brussels, but barrier to the functioning of the single market—we do with our fellow member states to ensure that we influence not believe it is, or that the evidence is there to support them. such a conclusion—and directly results in all the specific tax obstacles that the proposal claims to address. We For example, member states will need to consider the would also need evidence that the proposal is the only, implications of the proposal for companies operating or the best, way to address those tax obstacles. We will across the UK, particularly if it were taken forward continue to raise those points with the Commission through enhanced co-operation. We should also seek to during our discussions, and we will continue to engage ensure that a common consolidated corporate tax base proactively and constructively with other member states does not undermine UK competitiveness or create on the important issues of policy substance, including opportunities for tax avoidance. those highlighted in the European Scrutiny Committee’s Such considerations will involve examining some of report. the specific issues raised in the European Scrutiny Committee’s helpful report, such as the potential As I have said, we are not the only member state that implications for the tax treaties and the risk of creating has raised significant concerns about the proposal, and additional administrative burdens on business. Of course, we will continue to talk to others about their concerns one of the European Commission’s arguments is that and ours. the proposal will reduce burdens and provide simplification, but, like the Committee, the Government simply do not Mr Redwood: Is it not rather easier than that? We accept that argument. have always been assured by previous Ministers of the I turn to some of the specific concerns that the Crown that we have an absolute veto on tax matters, so Committee raised in its report. First, I will address do we not just have to say to the EU, “We have a veto, the proposal’s legal base. Article 115 of the treaty on the and the answer is no”? 1285 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1286 Tax Base Tax Base Justine Greening: My right hon. Friend is absolutely as saying, “We don’t want to be in it,” because the right that we can say no for ourselves, but the problem, proposal might go ahead in a different form involving a as he is aware, is that under the treaty, a smaller group limited group of nations, which could still affect us, of nine or more member states— even if indirectly. I want to make it absolutely clear tonight what the Government are fundamentally seeking Mr Redwood: Fine. to achieve. We will not agree to any proposal that will threaten or limit our ability to shape our tax policy. Justine Greening: My right hon. Friend says that that is fine, but there is a danger for our country that even Mr Clappison: I support the course that my hon. that would have an impact on the tax planning that we Friend the Minister is taking this evening with the could undertake with corporations as member states motion, as far as it goes, and the Opposition have choose whether to opt in or out. We want to ensure that revealed via an intervention that they do not understand we are in those discussions at this earlier stage, before the treaty to which they signed up. However, following we get to that part of any future process. We do not what my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) know whether we will get to that stage—many member and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham states might share our concerns—but we absolutely (Mr Redwood) have said, is not the fear of what others need to be in there now, making our case, because we do may do by way of enhanced co-operation robbing us of not want to end up with a smaller group of member our right to a veto and the requirement for unanimity? states going down that route, which could, depending Is that not a new doctrine? If we do not agree with the on their decisions on tax loopholes and avoidance, proposal, let us say no rather than robbing ourselves of which are complex, lead to negative unforeseen the veto by worrying about what others may or may consequences for the UK tax system’s competitiveness, not do. which might happen even if the UK were outside any possible future proposals. Justine Greening: As has been pointed out already this evening, we ultimately have the ability to say no, but Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): That rather than having to do so, we want to ensure that we was a lucid explanation—irony, of course, sometimes carry the majority of member states in the first place. does not work in Hansard. The right hon. Member for That is precisely what we are doing now, and we want to Wokingham (Mr Redwood) has hit the nail on the head. ensure that we are in a position to do it as effectively as Why does the motion not say no to the consolidated possible. corporate tax base proposal? I assure the House that we are putting our points Justine Greening: At the moment, there is no proposal across. Tonight’s debate is a key part of that, because it on the table. A proposal is being worked up, but things is an important opportunity for the House to put on are at an early stage. Member states have had, I believe, record its concerns and views as these proposals develop. two working group meetings with the Commission to The proposals are at an early stage, but they are shaping talk about how any proposal might operate. Fundamental up to be important and fundamental. questions are still being developed on, for example, how the formula will work, and a host of other issues. As I Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): We are inviting the have said, part of the challenge is how any avoidance Minister to say whether she agrees that, as I believe, no loopholes might work in practice, and whether they form of consolidated tax base will ever be acceptable. It would be substantial. We are at a very early point in the is vital to our competitiveness that we can attract business process. Today’s debate allows Members of our Parliament here with a more competitive way of calculating the tax to have their say, which we can then add to the Commission’s base, so any proposals under which we would not have process. that competitive edge must be bad for our nation. It is all right saying that this is a draft, but I cannot think of Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The Opposition any form of this proposal that could ever be in our Benches are virtually empty, but there are also no interest. Liberal Democrats in the Chamber—there is a sort of let-out under the coalition agreement. The Minister Justine Greening: My hon. Friend might well be seems to be referring to enhanced co-operation, which right, but I want to make clear the rules and the the agreement says is the basis on which the Government processes going forward. No member state can unilaterally will be engaged in discussions to help to shape a corporate block the use of enhanced co-operation. Of course we tax base that does not undermine the competitiveness can decide whether we want to be part of that—I have of the EU or the UK. She has made it clear that clearly set out the Government’s concerns about the enhanced co-operation would have that effect, so clearly, proposal—but I am saying to the House that we need to we will not under any circumstances accept it. Therefore, participate in the debate and ensure that we influence the answer can only be no. Why do we not say so? the underlying proposal. We do not want to end up being unable to stop enhanced co-operation simply Justine Greening: As I have said, we need to manage because it was a proposal that we fundamentally did risks, and it is unclear at this point where the process not want in the first place. We need to make our case, will end up. However, there might be risks posed by with other member states, in order to influence the enhanced co-operation. We need to be part of the proposal as it develops, and that is precisely what we discussions to ensure that our arguments carry weight. want to do. Our arguments will not carry weight if we are not part of those discussions from the beginning, because we say Mr Cash: The Minister is always well informed, so I that we never want to be involved. That is not a sensible am sure that she knows that the Tax Commissioner has approach. In addition, I do not agree that it is as simple already said that if there is a veto—if, in other words, 1287 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1288 Tax Base Tax Base [Mr Cash] Chris Leslie: I am very tempted by the hon. Gentleman’s invitation to do so. As I said, we have not changed our the Commission does not get unanimity—it will go ahead policy from when we were in office, and the Government with enhanced co-operation. If we know that to be the have decided to pick that up. We do not wish to see the case, why do we not just say no and be done with it? harmonisation of corporation tax rates; nor do we believe that this CCCTB proposal is justified, although Justine Greening: The Commission might, as my hon. there are legitimate cross-border issues that we need to Friend has said, take a view, but we need to understand discuss. For example, the CBI has raised the important what other member states think about the proposal. issue of how businesses operate and the compliance This evening is a chance for us, as a member state, to costs that companies working on a cross-border basis allow our Parliament to voice its concerns. The European can sometimes incur. It is legitimate to listen to those Scrutiny Committee, which he chairs, has produced a points, although there may be other, non-EU ways of helpful report that will no doubt form a basis of this addressing them. For example, we could make bilateral, debate. country-to-country arrangements—through some of the I shall now finish my remarks so that other Members double taxation treaties, and so on—to deal with those can put on record their views on the report. issues. Indeed, I would like the Minister to address the issue of bilateral discussions, which I understand the 7.32 pm Treasury says in the reasoned opinion it might wish to pursue. It would be very helpful indeed if she could tell Chris Leslie: The Minister has essentially enunciated the House what negotiations the Government have a continuation of the policy advocated by the previous already entered into along those lines. Administration. In fact, this common consolidated corporation tax base proposal has been around for a Mr Redwood: Does the shadow Minister, like me, find decade or so. In that time there has not been a massive it democratically distasteful that a 102-page draft law change in policy, which is interesting, because I had governing the whole of our corporation tax regime, anticipated that, in her quasi-Thatcherite mode, the along with supporting papers amounting to 298 pages, Minister would say, “No, no, no!” to this proposal—but should get only one and a half hours of debate, and that she did not. this is all the scrutiny that we are allowed? As I said, it is interesting that the motion is quite carefully worded. It specifically mentions “reasoned Chris Leslie: Yes, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman opinion”, “subsidiarity and proportionality” and so on that. We need to begin entirely readdressing the forth, but if passed it would not actually instruct the accountability deficit. I know that this Parliament already House of Commons to reject the directive as drafted. I tries valiantly to address it—in Scrutiny Committees suspect—on this point I was thinking of intervening on and elsewhere—but this is a debate about serious proposals. the hon. Lady, but I thought I would let her finish—that The Treasury is often an intermediary these days when it might be more to do with the Liberal Democrat it comes to new regulations and policy changes. It is position on this issue. [Interruption.] The Minister rolls important that we should think about the design of our her eyes, but there are no Lib Dems here so it is difficult Government and our Parliament in tackling proposals to put them on the spot. as they come along. Hon. Members will be interested to hear the Lib As I said, I am interested in the Government’s line. Dems’ official policy on a common consolidated corporate We will not take issue with them on this proposal this tax base. In their 2009 document, they stated that they evening, but we want to watch where they go with it. All would “address the variability issue” on cross-border I am asking of the Minister is whether coalition policy corporation tax is taking into account the Liberal Democrat official “by developing a medium and long-term statement of business line. tax policy, covering a minimum two parliament timeframe. This statement would…identify areas for greater international co-operation Justine Greening: We are one Government and this is on tax policy. A clear area for co-operation is in the movement a Government motion. The hon. Gentleman can take it towards a harmonised tax base in the EU, often referred to as a from the motion that it has the support of the coalition Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base”. Government, who include two parties. So, there is a loud voice—muscular and visible, as we now know—in the coalition arguing vociferously in Chris Leslie: That is very helpful, and it means that favour of a common consolidated corporate tax base. I the Liberal Democrats must have undergone a de facto say that for the benefit of the House, because it is change of opinion. I suppose that we can ask the important that hon. Members know the facts. Given Liberal Democrats. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady says, that the motion was published only this morning on the “Ask them,” but we cannot. Anyway, I do not want to Order Paper—hon. Members did not really have notice intrude on private grief, one Government or not—although of exactly the Government’s proposition, which is quite probably not—and neither do I want to take up too ridiculous—and that all 298 pages of the supporting much more of the House’s time. papers were published only yesterday, I am not surprised The hon. Lady has said that she is anxious that, if we that many hon. Members have not yet woken up to the are not careful, a smaller group of states might just go opinion being taken of the Government on this matter. ahead with the enhanced co-operation procedure in any case. What assessment has been made of the potential Mr Cash: In this new guise of the Pym or Hampden impact on UK businesses, tax revenues and so forth? of the British Parliament, am I to imagine, beyond the Which other member states does she think are most wildest speculation, that the Labour party is about to likely to go ahead? What role could we play in ensuring announce that it will vote against these proposals on the that we are not sidelined or excluded from those discussions, grounds that it does not veto the Commission’s proposals? but instead have an impact on them? 1289 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1290 Tax Base Tax Base Those are the key points that we need to address right the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) now. I am generally worried about the Government’s is there, acting as a surrogate, which is extremely unlikely disengagement from those European issues that really in the circumstances, although I am delighted to see matter to this country. As we know, the Minister has a him and I hope that he will contribute to the debate at habit of signing Treasury memorandums about European some point. matters that are perhaps not always agreed to by others I want to continue with the words that come after the in her party. I am referring to the European stability word “but”. They are that, “under enhanced co-operation” mechanism documentation that she signed, when she the coalition Government will agreed that cross-party consensus was gained between the previous Government and her Administration. We “engage in discussions to help shape a CCCTB that does not undermine the competitiveness of the EU or the UK”. will obviously be debating that on another occasion, but, for the time being, we will be keeping a watching Now that is a monumental exception, because it is brief on where the Government stand on this matter. obvious, for reasons that I shall explain, that the proposal will undermine the competitiveness of the EU and the UK ab initio—and the Government know it. It follows 7.40 pm from that, as light follows day, that there is no reason Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): This is of course for us not to put our foot down now and say no. We about direct taxation, and I welcome the Government’s know that the Tax Commissioner is saying that this is limited stand against the draft directive, for the reasons going ahead under enhanced co-operation, and this it given in the motion endorsing the European Scrutiny not something magicked out of the air, as he knows Committee’s report on the points that the Minister has perfectly well that that is what Germany, France and just summarised. I remain concerned, however, about other countries are intending to do. When I provide the one matter still hanging over the debate. The Minister figures on the number of member states engaged in the might be able to guess what I am about to say. It goes process, as I shall in a moment, perhaps matters will fall back to a motion that was before a European Standing into place. Committee which asserted, in the name of the Government, The proposals before the European Scrutiny Committee probably for the first time since 1640—I mentioned are, for reasons set out in our conclusions, all profoundly Pym and Hampden just now—that the British Government, objectionable, but the draft directive falls down particularly as a sovereign Government, were only primarily responsible on four main issues: one, the sovereignty of this House; for direct taxation, whereas in fact our Parliament is two, the insufficient legal base; three, an inadequate and exclusively responsible for it. That motion was put to a unconvincing impact assessment; four, grounds of deferred Division in the House and passed, which is proportionality, making the doubling of tax regimes in pretty alarming. I invite the Minister to be rather clearer the EU, the cost of establishing 27 new regimes and the than she was the last time I put this point to her, apportionment formula excessively disadvantageous for because it must be made absolutely clear that this certain member states. House is exclusively responsibility for direct taxation. I add that the Oxford university centre for business The Minister has been at pains to describe the context taxation says in its policy briefing that of this measure in the light of the questions of subsidiarity, “it is unlikely that the introduction of the CCCTB would bring but some Members might recall that it was on 27 April significant benefits to the EU in aggregate in terms of employment, that I raised this matter with the Prime Minister, together GDP or efficiency, although some individual countries could with the proposed increase in the European budget and benefit significantly.” the Portuguese bail-out, not to mention prospective I make that point because, under the formula of Roland Greek bail-outs and whatever else. I said that we expected Vaubel of Mannheim university, it is well known that the answer to be no to each of those proposals. His there is such a thing as regulatory collusion and that, by reply referred only to the increase in the EU budget, the clever use of certain majority voting systems, through and I hope—for reasons that have been expressed in negotiations in the case of unanimity as in this instance interventions, including my own—that we are unequivocal or by enhanced co-operation, it is possible to arrive at a in reserving to ourselves the absolute determination, point where some countries benefit to the disadvantage and not merely the right, to say no to these proposals, of others. The Oxford university think-tank has its because they infringe a number of important principles. finger on that issue. I shall come to those in a moment. It is quite clear that the objective of this tax base—this I want it on record that the coalition agreement states is the important part that needs to be borne in mind on that there should be the big landscape—is to raise money to pay for the “no further transfer of sovereignty or powers” profligate, incompetent and failing European project. to the EU. Our Committee report looked at that and Countries such as Greece, Ireland and Portugal are found it wanting in relation to the EU referendum Bill. either on the verge of or in danger of bankruptcy or are The Government have also said that they would reject actually going bankrupt because of the systemic failure any proposal that of economic policies. The stability and growth pact “might threaten or limit our ability to shape our own tax policy.”— does not work: as I have said before, there is no stability, [Official Report, House of Lords, 16 February 2011; Vol. 725, no growth and no pact. c. WA172.] The creation of a two-tier Europe will merely exacerbate I have the greatest respect for the Minister, as she well these problems, as was noted when we debated the knows, but she left out the next bit, which was the word European Union Bill, and will lead to ever-greater “but”. That word “but” is represented by Banquo’s German domination over the European economy. The ghost, who is not sitting on the Liberal Democrat Front economic predominance of Germany in east and central Bench tonight—[Interruption.] Ah! My hon. Friend Europe might be a good thing from its point of view, 1291 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1292 Tax Base Tax Base [Mr William Cash] on our side of the equation? I know her sentiments, and I also know her Parliamentary Private Secretary. He but we now have a transfer Union and a massive was a member of the European Scrutiny Committee redistribution of resources. What we are also witnessing with me for years. He would be jumping about all over as a result of the failure of this project are riots and the place about this if he were still a member of the protests as Germany repatriates its profits at the expense Committee, and agreeing with every word that I am of cheap labour unit costs from the countries in which it saying. has put investment in the centre of Europe, as Portugal, Leaving aside the attack on Thatcherism, of all things, Greece and even Ireland have found to their cost. The by the Deputy Prime Minister immediately after the pumping of money supports not so much the member disastrous showing of the Liberal Democrats in the states as the French and German banks, which have lent polls, which is probably why no Liberal Democrat Members money indiscriminately to suit themselves—and we are are present today—and, for that matter, the let-out that expected to engage in the bail-out procedure, the covert they have been given in the coalition agreement, which I mechanism for which is the stability mechanism, coming think I have now shot to pieces—I would say that there into effect in 2013. is every reason for the Liberal Democrats to back down As the European Scrutiny Committee insists, this and not veto our Conservative party veto simply because whole proposal is in breach of the principle of subsidiarity. of the coalition arrangement, and for the Prime Minister I remind the House that this principle is intended to to do what I asked him to do at Prime Minister’s ensure that decisions are taken as closely as possible to Question Time only a few weeks ago and say “No, no, the citizen. Direct taxation is such a policy. The national no.” That would save a great deal of time and argument. Parliaments are able to use the procedure under the The UK corporate tax director of a major European treaties to challenge breaches of subsidiarity. At present, bank has said that this proposal would increase our there are only six countries whose parliamentary Chambers corporation tax and drive investment away, reduce our propose to, or have, issued a reasoned opinion. We have, GDP by £73 billion over 10 years, increase the administrative but, interestingly enough, the House of Lords has not. I burden, and lose the UK an estimated total of £58 billion, think that we should note that. again over 10 years. We know that Mr Sarkozy and In passing the motion, the House will challenge the Ms Merkel are in favour of the competitiveness pact, breach of subsidiarity. I suspect that the Minister has which affects us although it is presented as a eurozone figures that are even more up to date than mine, but as matter. I believe profoundly that, whether the proposal far as I know, of the 27 member states, the five that are involves enhanced co-operation, the creation of a two-tier on our side are Ireland, Malta, Netherlands, Poland system, or whatever other means or machinations may and Sweden. I am told that Cyprus, Greece, Hungary be produced by the Faustian pact that is being devised and Slovenia have no plans even to scrutinise the proposal, in Europe, we should put our foot down, lead from the that those yet to decide include Austria, Bulgaria, the front, and say no. I am prepared to admit that the Czech Republic—the lower chamber and the senate— opportunity to do that exists, but I want to hear it from Denmark, Estonia, France, Lithuania, and Luxembourg; the Prime Minister’s own lips. He will then be able to that Romania, Portugal, Italy and Spain believe that the enjoy as much success in this context as he, and we, draft directive complies with the principle of subsidiarity; enjoyed in the context of the alternative vote the other and that the German Bundesrat is considering it only day, when the Liberal Democrats got their come-uppance. on the basis of content. The picture is very uncertain. There is no guarantee 7.55 pm that the accumulated number of reasoned opinions will Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): It is a privilege to be sufficient to meet the threshold requiring the European follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), Commission to review the proposal, and because that although I shall not follow his lead by addressing European will be known somewhat in advance, the tax commissioner law in forensic detail. In these debates, we run the risk of will say that he has already received a demand to getting lost in the detail of legal technicalities and proceed with enhanced co-operation. forgetting to look at why the whole idea before us is bad We have a serious problem on our hands; however, we for Britain and bad for Europe. Although I understand have another card up our sleeve. Unbeknown to some, why the Government have put forward this proposal, I although I am more than happy to share the information want at the very least to try to improve it and to make with the House, under article 8 of protocol 2 the United the final agreed measure the least bad it can possibly be. Kingdom Parliament can go to the European Court of More than that, however, I think we must explain why Justice, which has jurisdiction to determine our claim as the whole idea is so bad for all European Union member the House of Commons—which is regarded as a separate states and try to persuade them to kill it off and not run Chamber—that the principle of subsidiarity has been with a slightly improved version. breached. That gives us the basis for a challenge. My hon. Friend set out some of the reasons why this I believe that if the Government are not prepared to is bad for Britain. There is great concern that it would say no—which, for the reasons that I have already lead to tax revenue disappearing from Britain and going given, I think that they should have done already—the to other member states. We should consider the three House of Commons should take the matter to the proposed allocation keys: the number of employees and European Court of Justice; but would it not save an the wage bill; the value of tangible assets, but not enormous amount of time and trouble if we simply intangible assets except in some limited circumstances; recognised that the House is sovereign, that it has the and the level of sales. Those keys will greatly favour right to take the action that it has taken, that the economies that have high employee-intensive and asset- European Scrutiny Committee has done its job at this intensive industries, and I am not at all sure that that is stage in the proceedings, and that the Minister is profoundly how we would describe our economy, or whether it 1293 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1294 Tax Base Tax Base would accord with our vision for our economy in the regime to make these ideas, which are superficially simple future. The amount of profit, and therefore tax revenue, but which would not turn out to be so, seem less attractive. could be skewed, with the extra sums going to the I took the time to look through the draft directive on nations with high numbers of employees and high-value a common consolidated corporate tax base and I could tangible assets. As a result of this measure, multinational see a few things in it that will attract some multinational groups would be able to allocate certain activities and directors. Its level of tax depreciation or capital allowances thereby place their corporate tax bills in territories that allowed for fixed assets is somewhat higher than we are would result in their getting a lower rate than we might reducing ours to. As I recall it, the EU is allowing want. We must be very careful, therefore. 25% on a reducing balance basis, rather than the 18% From my experience as a tax adviser for 13 years, I that our level is now down to. Various other things in can say that what we want is choices. It would be a great the directive may also be found attractive. We should start if we could choose whether or not to be in the focus our energies on trying to simplify our tax system regime, or if we could choose to be in, and then try to to keep our competitive advantage, which arises from have a completely different allocation key if we can find some of the reliefs we offer. We should also try to take one that gets us a lower bill. The draft directive allows away the tax barriers around Europe and not create a that. The aim must be to get every possible chance to whole new complex system. We should not waste loads choose. If I can choose where to base and allocate of time and money and miss the big picture. certain activities, I can come up with some clever ideas on how to reduce my tax base. In these days of internet 8.1 pm sales, where we recognise a sale to have been made is an interesting exercise. Is it where the server is based, for Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Tonight’s instance? It could be set anywhere we like, I think. debate should be a vital one because, after all, it is about sovereignty; it is about power. The might of this House For some, there is an attraction in such Europe-wide of Commons in its great years was based on one very measures. If I were an American finance director I simple proposition: that only a vote of the House of might think, “I have 27 EU subsidiaries, and sorting out Commons could impose or remove a tax on the British all the tax returns and compliance issues is horribly people. It was that power which our predecessors fought complicated, but now I can just do one nice and simple for and achieved, and it was that power which was tax return. Great!” In the US system however, there is a crucial to grant the supply to the Government, who federal corporate tax, but also a load of different state could then choose how to spend it, on the advice and systems. I do not think anyone would say its system is at with the votes of the House of Commons. all simple, or would choose to adopt that model. We have been assured and reassured by countless We should be looking to take away some of the tax Ministers of the Crown since we joined the European barriers across Europe. Frankly, the EU has led to the Economic Community in the 1970s that taxation was creation of some unnecessary tax obstacles. The idea always a matter for unanimity; that we would always that the EU involves a tax simplifying arrangement is have a veto over any tax matter; and that there was no somewhat laughable. About seven years ago, we had to question of the European Union interfering and choosing extend transfer pricing rules to apply between UK taxes for us or running our tax system. Under the resident companies of the same group because we were previous Labour Government tax was said to be a concerned that the European Court would otherwise defensible red line, which they always told us they had throw out the transfer pricing rules that only applied on always protected. Under previous Conservative cross-border transactions. That increased the compliance Governments, Ministers could rightly then say that it burden on almost every corporate tax group in the UK. was always a matter entirely for the jurisdiction and Ideally, we would allow our large groups to have a decision of this House of Commons. consolidated tax filing in the UK of all their UK Yet tonight, in this small and short debate, we are entities, and thus take away the need to keep separate presented with a 102-page draft law which is a records and make separate transactions. We cannot do comprehensive new corporation tax system for the that because we fear European law would strike it out European Union, including the United Kingdom. Worse for no particularly good reason, yet we can try to have still, we have been warned in a friendly way by the this complex arrangement for the whole EU. Minister that if this country disagrees with it, a group We would think that the EU would be taking away of countries may go ahead under some other procedure withholding taxes, yet its directives allow withholding and create it anyway, and they will then exert extraterritorial taxes on certain transactions between member states. If jurisdiction over the UK because they will try to bid our we are going to spend a lot of time and money looking companies away from our system to their system. As my to simplify tax across the EU, let us look to take away hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) the barriers that are already there, and not create whole has just said, tax advisers and accountants will be able new levels of complexity we do not need. This whole to play all sorts of games under this complicated system agenda is a complete blind; this has to be seen as a drive so that companies that have some activities in Britain towards a single European Union, a single federal state could be tempted into the European Union opt-in and a single tax system. If we want to be competitive, system. That would mean that the British Treasury and we are making exactly the right moves in reducing our British Ministers would no longer have jurisdiction over tax rate, but there is more to a competitive tax system them; we would get back only what the sharing formula that attracts overseas investment than just the rate; there ballowed, which the European Union would be in charge of. is the tax base, and the stability and simplicity of the I assume that it is because the Minister is worried system. If there is one message for the Government about that eventuality that she has not come here with a coming out of this, it is that we need to simplify our tax straightforward proposal just to veto the whole thing. 1295 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1296 Tax Base Tax Base [Mr John Redwood] system such as this, it would not want a weak link. The EU would see a weak link as a state that dared to set a My advice to the Government is that this should be the more realistic and lower rate in order to attract business. issue we fight over. This proposal is so outrageous, it is such a comprehensive violation of subsidiarity, as they Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): As ever, my right hon. call it, and it is such a U-turn from the proposition that Friend makes his points with incredible force. Does he a member state has control over its own tax affairs that not agree if the European Union follows the policies of surely we should veto it. If we vetoed it and other bail-outs and political interference with business all the countries still wanted to go ahead as a lesser group than time, we will keep seeing measures like this one again the European Union, we should follow things through and again until we head towards a single centralised and say that it therefore does not apply to the United economic system of government? Kingdom and we will not operate it in respect of Mr Redwood: My hon. Friend is right. The EU believes companies that are properly domiciled here and should that imposing more complex and higher taxes is the be taxed here under our rules. We should set the rules answer to the deficit problem, whereas the answer to the for organisations and companies undertaking activity deficit problem is growth, more business, more activity in Britain, making money in Britain and employing and more jobs. Everything the EU does by way of people in Britain. If we cannot do that, what is the higher tax rates, more regulation, more interference and point of this House of Commons? I think the Minister more layers of government prevents that from happening. is in a stronger position than perhaps her officials and That is the Greek tragedy that we are witnessing as we advisers have suggested. debate today. We have heard, I think rightly, from my hon. Friend The latest figures on the Greek Government website the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) that the legal base is imply that the Greek deficit got a lot bigger in the first not correct. In order to justify all the statements that part of this year because tax revenues plummeted, this is a matter for unanimity, it must come under that because the economy is in worse recession, and because measure in the treaty that states that other proposals spending has gone up, both because they are not controlling can be produced but that they require the unanimous it and because spending goes up in a recession. That is consent of all member states. It must come under a the tragedy of the European model—of the bail-out unanimous base. Once it is a matter to be decided under model and of “extend and pretend”, whereby we extend a unanimous base, we can then save the European the credit and pretend it will be all right. It is not going Union a lot of time, trouble and money because we can to be all right and that approach is causing disaster, simply say that we do not wish to have a collective unemployment and tragedy. corporation tax system and that Britain is going to use her veto. For once, surely, the United Kingdom could Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): have some influence over the agenda of the European The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned several tragedies Union and we could show that we mean it when we say and I note with some interest that the Treasury team that taxation is for national decision—that it is a matter includes this Minister, the Economic Secretary, whose for subsidiarity, in the EU’s language, or a matter of views on Europe are well known, the Chancellor, whose sovereignty, in my language. views are very well known, and the hon. Member for I would like to ask my ministerial friend what the Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands), whose views are point was of this House solemnly legislating to maintain, also very well known. Perhaps the real tragedy is that uphold or reaffirm the sovereignty of the British Parliament the Liberal Democrats in the Treasury team, who are if we cannot even choose our own corporation tax not even here tonight, have forced this policy on the regime. What is the point of our going along with the Government. negotiations to try to ameliorate, improve or abate the Mr Redwood: I am not sure I believe that. We have severity of this draft law if we are doing so in the spirit heard from the Minister that they are a happy and that we will end up with a law of sorts anyway? We will united team and that she is proud of the work she has then hear from the Minister that instead of it being brought to us. I am saying that I would like her to something that we have vetoed, it is something we have improve the work and to go back and make that happy taken the worst out to make it a bit more tolerable so team one that can perhaps make us happier. The simple that we can go along with it. It will not be necessary for answer is veto—she should say, “No, this cannot work. the other member states who want the measure to use a It is a dreadful constitutional intrusion on a country special procedure to get it, and there will be no need for that desperately needs its own economic recovery to us to say to them that we refuse to go along with it or accelerate, that needs lower tax rates and greater tax comply with it. simplification and that needs to promote economic growth.”My right hon. Friend the Chancellor is beginning Mr Cash: Does my right hon. Friend recall the words to do that, but I think more measures are needed to of Chancellor Kohl, who, only 10 or 15 years ago, made secure the deal and make sure it works. it clear that, on the question of the speed of the convey, I am quite sure that this huge deal—the 102-page which is what this is all about, he would want the front draft law—is not the way forward. My hon. Friend the of the convey to go ahead, led by Germany, and for the Minister says that there is no proposal, but I regard a other Member states to be left in such a parlous condition 102-page draft law as a very serious proposal. Experience that they would eventually, in his words, have to catch up? has taught me never to underestimate the power and persuasion of the European Union when it wants to do Mr Redwood: My hon. Friend is quite right. That also something. I think that it is now on a great push to explains why the European Union is so keen to try to establish all the central powers it needs for the economic get the Irish rate up, because if it is to have a common governance of a single-economy, single-country model, 1297 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1298 Tax Base Tax Base and that this is part of it along with the economic without a specific treaty amendment, which would of six-pack. My strong advice to my hon. Friend is that course be a separate veto-able activity under the treaties Britain can do better, Britain needs to say no and as they exist. Britain needs to exempt herself from all this, as we are We often complain about European law, and I do not entitled to do, so that we keep a sovereign Parliament like the fact that laws made by this Parliament can be and a growing economy. overturned by the European Court, but as that is the world in which we live, when European law is on our Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I call side we ought to use it. So I reiterate my plea to the Jacob Rees-Mogg. Minister in the European Councils to say that we are uncertain of the legal base and that we would like a Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con) rose— clear legal judgment from the European Court of Justice before we proceed with further negotiations. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): He’s up off his Now there is also a fall-back position, as my hon. chaise longue. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) said. If the European Court of Justice were, as a federalising court, 8.10 pm to invent a legal base, we could then come back to the point of subsidiarity, where this debate is so relevant Jacob Rees-Mogg: Indeed; thank you so much for and important. We are putting the argument to Europe that sedentary intervention. and saying, “You have put these fine protections into It is very interesting that, as my right hon. Friend the the treaties. You have used these grand-sounding words— Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) was saying, not as clear as the 10th amendment to the United States between 1688 and 1972, taxation could not be levied constitution, but none the less words that are supposed without the permission of the House. Since 1972, tax to protect the rights of sovereign member states. Let’s rates have been changed at the whim of the European now see if you mean it. Let’s now see if you, the Union. What is more, it happens to use duties levied on Commission, will accept the argument for subsidiarity, imports in exactly the way that James II would have and if you won’t, whether the court will back it up and been familiar with—it takes the same anti-parliamentary whether the proposals will fall on that basis.” approach. James II called them tonnage and poundage; If all this fails, then I accept the Minister’s position. I the European Union calls them anti-dumping measures must confess that it is a reassurance to those of us on but it changes them with arrogance as it sees fit. the Eurosceptic wing of the party that it is the Minister I want to talk about the legal aspects of this issue, who will be conducting the negotiations, because at because they are the absolute crux of it. I raise this least we know that it is not, as some on the Opposition point with my hon. Friend the Minister because there is Benches would have said, a woolly Liberal negotiating. no point in negotiating for months if there is no legal It is somebody who wields a handbag in as fine a way as basis in the first place. The Government should be very the great lady—[Interruption.]—the blessed lady, so we clear and rigorous about this and should take it, if have confidence that the Government’s negotiations necessary, all the way through to the European Court of will be tough. Justice. That might be a Court in which many of us do It is fair enough to go through a process, if that is not have a great deal of confidence and it might be a where we end up, but ultimately the response must be Court that is in principle a federalist Court, but none no, not least because tax competition is a thoroughly the less it is there and its procedures should be used. healthy thing. Let me read out paragraph 2.12 of the European Scrutiny Committee’s conclusion on this issue: Chris Ruane: If the Chief Secretary to the Treasury “The draft Directive is concerned with direct taxation. The has forced the Minister’s hand, and has forced a veto, legal base cited for it is Article 115 TFEU. This article allows EU should he be known as Danny DeVeto? legislation to approximate national legislation which directly affects the operation of the single market, but”— Jacob Rees-Mogg: I heard that joke when it was made this is the key point— from a sedentary position. I thought it was funny five minutes ago, and it has got better by being shared with “this provision is expressly ‘without prejudice to Article 114’. Article 114(2) TFEU provides that Article 114(1) TFEU ‘shall the whole House. It is a shame that all the sketch writers not apply to fiscal provisions’. Article 113 TFEU, the only have gone home, or the hon. Gentleman would have provision referring to the harmonisation of taxation, is limited in had a lead in the papers tomorrow. its scope to ‘turnover taxes, excise duties and other forms of Let me conclude on this point: tax competition is indirect taxation’. There is therefore no express provision in the healthy. It is good for nations and benefits Europe, Treaty for the harmonisation of direct taxation.” companies and, ultimately, Government tax revenues. So we have a Minister battling for us who has three Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): things that she can say. First, the draft directive is illegal In that quote, my hon. Friend used the word “approximate”. under the treaties as they stand; secondly, the House of What is the legal import of the meaning of “approximate”? Commons believes that it does not meet the requirements of subsidiarity; and thirdly, it is a dreadful idea anyway Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend leads me away and it ought to be binned. from the essential point, which is that the EU does not have any authority over direct taxation, whether it is approximating it or not, so the approximation is irrelevant 8.17 pm in relation to direct taxation because the treaties do not Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It is always a provide for that. If the treaties do not provide for it, great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for then the EU cannot provide for enhanced co-operation North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who sets out 1299 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1300 Tax Base Tax Base [Mr David Nuttall] politics, is specifically outlawed in the coalition agreement, which states that there is to be with such great clarity the grounds for my opposition to “no further transfer of sovereignty or powers” the measure. We have heard tonight a number of reasons to the EU over the course of this Parliament. If this why the proposal for a common Euro corporation tax, would not be a transfer of sovereignty and powers, I do as I would like to call it, is wrong. This is yet another not know what would. stage towards what the eurocrats are determined to proceed with—ever closer union. When the Minister responds to this short debate, will she give an estimated time scale for when she is likely to We are here on a regular weekly or fortnightly basis, be able to come back and report on what success there looking at the latest directive that comes before the has been in persuading other countries to adopt our House. Sometimes the directives could be described as position on this matter, and will she give an absolute dealing with relatively minor matters. This one most confirmation that there will be no signing up to the certainly cannot. The harmonisation and the proposal in any way, shape or form without the matter Europeanisation or European Unionisation of the being brought back to the House for further consideration? corporation tax base is a step too far. We have heard that its legal basis is unsound. It would, in my opinion, fall foul of the principle of subsidiarity. I believe that it 8.24 pm is economically wrong. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): It would be interesting to know how many FTSE I am most grateful for the indulgence of the House in companies in this country would be in favour of this allowing me to take part in this debate, despite the fact, crazy proposal. It seems that the only people who which I regret and for which I apologise, that I missed would benefit if it ever came into force would be those the speeches by the Economic Secretary to the Treasury companies and tax jurisdictions that were outside such and the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris an arrangement. I accept that in the early days they Leslie), who speaks for the Opposition. I heard my hon. could arrange their affairs in such a way as to make it Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and the subsequent attractive in order to encourage companies to come into speeches, and I get the tenor of the objections that have the euro corporation tax area, but I am absolutely been raised to the draft directive and the concerns, certain that before long, because of the bureaucratic which have been very well expressed. and regulatory burden, they would have to increase I wish to speak not so much about the substance of their corporation tax rates to such a level that any the directive as about the matter that is so germane to companies that were ensnared within such arrangements this debate: the nature of subsidiarity—what it is, and would quickly wish that they had never become involved. what we mean by it. That is the issue on which the debate hangs: a plea for subsidiarity. Mr Cash: Does my hon. Friend also accept that the We should remind ourselves what article 5 of the objective at the heart of this is to move towards a Treaty on the European Union says about subsidiarity: harmonised tax system for one reason: to complete the “Under the principle of subsidiarity…the Union shall act only circle of political union that will enable this to be one if and in so far as the objectives of the proposed action cannot be country, driven by fiscal direction, and at the same time sufficiently achieved by the Member States, either at central level to fill the belly of the European Leviathan with the or at regional and local level, but can rather, by reason of the scale money that will enable it to continue to create circumstances or effects of the proposed action, be better achieved at Union that will inevitably lead to more turmoil, implosion and level.” a greater disaster than we already have? Back in 1992-93, when the Maastricht treaty was being debated, a great deal of Hansard ink was devoted to reporting the discussion of that principle, and I might Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. say that I majored in the topic. I see this as the thin edge of the wedge. It is the opening The advisory part of article 5 relates to the objectives of a whole new war, and a whole new phase of European of the proposed action, and subsidiarity is a purely harmonisation. In fact, it is almost the final frontier, relative concept if it relates to the objectives of the because it is the step towards a euro-wide sales tax and, proposed action, so what are the objectives in the case ultimately, a euro-wide income tax that we would all be before us? They are set out at the start, and this speech subject to. It is extremely difficult indeed. is, I am afraid, about the futility of depending on I heard the Minster’s opening remarks, and it is to be subsidiarity. Subsidiarity is a futile defence of the national welcomed that we will at least go back to our European interest. partners and state our reasoned opinion for not proceeding Article 1 of the preamble to the draft directive states: with this. I am slightly concerned, to say the least, that we are not saying no outright, which would be a far “Companies which seek to do business across frontiers within the Union encounter serious obstacles and market distortions simpler way of dealing with it. It reminds me of the owing to the existence of 27 diverse corporate tax systems. These message of the drugs campaign run when I was at obstacles and distortions impede the proper functioning of the school: “Just say no”. The simplest solution to the internal market.” problem facing the House tonight would be just to say The proposed directive refers to “disincentives for no. I see no great danger if other countries want to get investment”, to the complexity in article 3 whereby the together and operate a common corporation tax system— that may be ultimately what they want to do—but this “network of double taxation conventions between Member States does not offer an appropriate solution,” EU proposal for a common corporation tax throughout Europe could be described as nothing other than giving and to the need for away sovereignty, which, to come back to our national “a single market for the purpose of corporate tax”. 1301 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1302 Tax Base Tax Base Mr Redwood: I am delighted if a case can be made taxation and borrowing should be. That is absolutely under subsidiarity, but surely there is a much simpler fundamental not only to the mechanics of our democracy case: taxation of companies and incomes was never but to the culture of our democracy and the culture of part of the deal for the powers of the European Union. this House. This proposal is a very direct challenge to What it is trying to do is quite illegal, and all we need to government by national democratic consent. do is to say so. The only, rather lame and late, point that I might be adding to the debate is a very simple one, and I do so for Mr Jenkin: But that was always the danger with the same reason as that which led my hon. Friend the article 5 and the subsidiarity clause. There are some Member for Stone (Mr Cash) to lambast the concept of very general objectives set out in the treaties, and subsidiarity subsidiarity when it was first proposed in the treaty on is one of those catch-all arrangements that can justify the European Union back in 1992—the Maastricht stretching the meaning of other articles, as we have treaty. It is, very simply, that subsidiarity is not sovereignty. already seen. Subsidiarity is subservience; it is submitting to the How does the European Union justify the bail-out jurisdiction of the European institutions instead of the mechanism that the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer sovereign judgment of the British people as expressed approved under article 122 of the Lisbon treaty, which in this House. Subsidiarity is no substitute for Government was designed for natural disasters? How can a crisis in saying no, particularly where the veto is in their hands. I the euro possibly be classified as a natural disaster? The urge my hon. Friend the Minister to exercise that veto, mechanism has, however, been allowed to go through knowing that she will have the confidence of the British by default. people behind her, because they do not want her to say The arrangement before us is another that will go yes in this case. through by default if we do not challenge it. Indeed, article 26 of the draft directive, the penultimate paragraph of the preamble, states: 8.32 pm “The objective of this Directive cannot be sufficiently achieved Justine Greening: With the leave of the House, I through individual action undertaken by the Member States would like to sum up the debate. We have had a full and because of the lack of coordination among national tax systems.” constructive discussion on this proposal, which is, as we It goes on to justify the objective as being have heard, an important one. I want to close by reiterating “in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity”— a few key points, but also by doing my best to respond and in its own terms that is very difficult to argue with. to the comments that have been made by Members—I I appreciate the European Scrutiny Committee’s points was about to say across the House, but that is obviously about the direct legal base, but the European Union is not the case, given that the Opposition spokesman going for an indirect legal base. That demonstrates that turned up with very few other people from his party. subsidiarity was always a deceit. It was always something First, I should address a couple of the points that the that could be a centralising, as opposed to a decentralising, hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) made concept, and if we rest our case against the proposal about the work that we do as a country with other purely on the principle of subsidiarity we will allow the member states. I can assure him that the UK has, for EU, rather than what we want ourselves, to determine example, double tax treaties in place with all EU member what is imposed upon this country. If we rest our case states that set out mechanisms for allocating taxing against this proposal purely on the principle of subsidiarity, rights to prevent the double taxation of companies, and we are allowing the European Union to decide what structures for reaching agreement on double taxation shall be imposed on this country rather than deciding relief and the exchange of information. He will be what we want for ourselves. aware that there is also a mutual agreement procedure framework for resolving cross-border disputes about Mr Cash: I know that my hon. Friend was able to tax, including transfer pricing. It is because such come in only somewhat late in the debate, but the mechanisms and frameworks are in place that we believe arguments that we have been presenting show that there that the proposed approach is necessary. are a whole series of weapons that we can employ. Subsidiarity happens to be a procedural device that is The hon. Gentleman asked about the views that we available to us by way of a reasoned opinion, which is have heard from business. We have heard a range of what the motion is about. We are critical of the views, and discussions between business and Government Government’s position in that they have not exercised are ongoing. In general, it is fair to say that business has their political will, for all the reasons that my hon. not been actively calling for this proposal. It is also fair Friend and others have explained. This whole business to say that some businesses have welcomed it—in particular, is an infringement not merely of the word “sovereignty” the prospect of allowing for cross-border loss consolidation. but of the practical requirements of the people of this However, some companies are stressing that their support country to tax themselves by consent. That is what it is depends on the optional nature of the proposal. An all about. awful lot of others, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), have expressed Mr Jenkin: There is absolutely no difference between concerns about the potential compliance and administrative me and my hon. Friend on that point. costs, which are likely to be large for many companies, To echo my right hon. Friend the Member for and the lack of certainty about how many aspects of Wokingham (Mr Redwood), the Budget moment in the the system would work—a concern that is shared by the calendar of this House is the most important political Government. occasion of each year, when the Chancellor comes to My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham this House to deliver his Budget judgment and it is for (Mr Redwood) rightly raised the veto, and I want to the House to determine what the levels of expenditure, provide absolute reassurance to all Members that we 1303 Common Consolidated Corporate 11 MAY 2011 Common Consolidated Corporate 1304 Tax Base Tax Base [Justine Greening] Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I know that there is a terrible pull for the Minister to turn will not agree to any proposal that might threaten our around and face the Benches behind her, but I remind Government’s ability to shape the UK’s tax policy. We her that she should be looking forwards, or towards me, are prepared to use our veto. so that we can hear clearly what she is saying. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) pointed out, subsidiarity is Justine Greening: I will of course do that, Madam the basis of one of the arguments that we can make, but Deputy Speaker. Your observation demonstrates that that is not the only argument we can make. We should there have been few questions from any part of the challenge the substance of the proposal, as well as Chamber other than behind me. That shows which raising our objections to the fundamental principles Members of this House are prepared to stand up for underlying it. That is precisely what we are doing. I our national interest and scrutinise proposals that affect emphasise to the House that we should continue to our national interest, and which Members would rather challenge the substance of the proposals as they develop, go home and watch TV than represent their communities even if we do not necessarily want to be part of them. as they should. I disagree slightly with my hon. Friend the Member We are committed to pursuing our national interest. for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), because I think it does My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley was matter to us what the proposals are in which a smaller right to raise the issue of complexity in regulation and group of nations may participate. It is in our interests to the need for simplification. The Government set up the understand what they are and whether they may have Office of Tax Simplification because we understand any direct or indirect impact on us as a member state. why those issues are important in helping business That is one reason why we want to be engaged in the domestically. We are taking those very same arguments discussions as they unfold. We also want to engage, to Europe. because other member states are keen, as we are, to have When I look at the proposal that we have been their say on this matter. I do not accept that member debating tonight, I find it hard to see how it can be states have reached a final position. The parliamentary reconciled with, for example, the Europe 2020 document debates and the development of those views are ongoing. and strategy that have been launched, which are all about stimulating growth. The impact assessment of Mr Nuttall: I am conscious of time, so I will be brief. the current proposal gives rise to grave concerns that it Will the Minister explain what line the Government will will do the exact opposite of that. It could hinder take in the negotiations? If the understanding is that we growth, investment and employment. We will focus our will not join at the end of the day, would it not be to our arguments not just on whether the proposal complies advantage to make the tax as difficult as possible, so with subsidiarity and proportionality but on the important that our companies have an advantage? issues of policy substance that have been highlighted. That is the best way to ensure that we get the right Justine Greening: We need to be careful to ensure that outcome for the UK and for our UK businesses operating we understand the complexities of the proposals. For across Europe. I can assure the House that the UK will example, we need to understand how companies that continue to participate fully in the EU negotiations on also operate in the UK may use any avoidance loopholes, the proposal, and I will, of course, as I have been asked, and whether that will impact on the way in which they keep the European Scrutiny Committee updated on the operate in the UK and structure their corporations. We progress of those negotiations. need to be smart about understanding the breadth of Question put and agreed to. the proposals. Whether we want to be in them is one thing, but we must be conscious that they may have an Resolved, impact on us even if we are not part of them. That this House considers that the Draft Directive to introduce a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base (European Union Mr Cash: Will the Minister be kind enough to be Document No. 7263/11) does not comply with the principle of smart enough to make it clear that we will not do subsidiarity, for the reasons set out in chapter 2 of the Twenty-seventh Report of the European Scrutiny Committee (HC 428-xxv); and, anything that the Liberal Democrats had in their manifesto? in accordance with Article 6 of the Protocol on the application of I have a suspicion bordering on certainty that the the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, instructs the wording in the coalition agreement is taken straight Clerk of the House to forward this reasoned opinion to the from their manifesto commitments. presidents of the European institutions. 1305 11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1306

Charter for Budget Responsibility Justine Greening: We are introducing a series of measure that will, over time, tackle our underlying structural deficit. My right hon. Friend makes the point that in the 8.41 pm meantime we need to borrow to pay off the structural The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine deficit, which the country will continue to have until we Greening): I beg to move, have been through the process of fiscal consolidation. That the Charter for Budget Responsibility, a copy of which Until our nation’s finances are in balance, we face a was laid before this House on 4 April, be approved. challenge, because debt interest payments will continue I welcome the opportunity to bring forward the charter to increase. If we had not taken the action that we are for budget responsibility for the approval of the House. taking, we would have the added problem that the rate The charter sets out the Government’s new fiscal framework of interest on that debt would also increase. It is important following the passage of the Budget Responsibility and that we get a grip on the debt interest rate that we are National Audit Act 2011. I will start by setting out the paying, that we tackle the problem now and that we do context for the reformed framework. not leave the problem of debt and the fiscal deficit to future generations. We need to get into a position in Following the general election last year, the coalition which the debt is affordable, because it is currently Government inherited the largest budget deficit in our squeezing the availability of money to spend on the peacetime history, which was forecast to be the largest public services on which we all depend. It is critical that in the G20. Our structural deficit was the largest in we continue with that plan. Europe. The fiscal situation that we inherited was Angel Gurría, the secretary-general of the OECD unprecedented, so on coming into office, the challenge has urged our country to “stay the course”, which is that we faced as a new Government of two parties precisely what we will do. Our plan has been praised by working together to resolve the problems left by the the international community and welcomed by the financial Labour party was to bring order back to our nation’s markets. As I have said, that will hopefully enable us to finances. The new fiscal framework contained in the keep those interest rates lower for longer. Both the charter is at the heart of that task. We published a draft International Monetary Fund and the OECD went of the charter in November last year, which provided from issuing warnings and cautions to the UK regarding time for substantial scrutiny. Indeed, it was considered economic management under the previous Government at all stages of the passage of the 2011 Act. Perhaps to calling this Government’s measures essential and before I get into the details of it, it would be helpful if I courageous. This Government’s decisive action has therefore set out the Government’s broader fiscal aims. taken Britain out of the financial danger zone, and the We believe that fiscal policy should restore sustainability crucial first step in that process was restoring the credibility to the public finances. That is essential so that we can of our fiscal policy by replacing the fiscal framework. reduce our vulnerability to shocks or a loss of market The charter sets out the new framework before Parliament confidence, underpin private sector confidence, support and for the public. growth and avoid an irresponsible accumulation of debt Perhaps I should remind the House why the Government at the expense of the next generation. We have taken set up the Office for Budget Responsibility. The previous tough and decisive action since taking office, and of Government’s forecasts for economic growth over the course last May, the immediate reduction of in-year past 10 years were, on average, out by £13 billion, and spending brought us much-needed breathing space given their forecasts of the budget deficit three years ahead the acute sovereign debt concerns across Europe. were, on average, out by £40 billion. Those forecasting The emergency Budget in June was the moment when errors were almost always in the wrong direction. In credibility was restored to Britain’s public finances, and fact, all the previous Government’s forecasts for borrowing in the 2010 Budget my right hon. Friend the Chancellor for more than two years ahead since Budget 2000 set out the Government’s fiscal mandate, which is now, underestimated the eventual figure. It is vital for credibility for the first time, included in a statutory document, and confidence that the forecasts for the economy and which is the charter that we are debating tonight. That public finances are produced independently, which is mandate requires the Government to balance the structural why we established the OBR. current deficit by the end of the rolling five-year forecast In June 2010, the interim OBR produced an independent period, and it is supplemented by a target for the public assessment of the economy and public finances ahead sector debt ratio to be falling at a fixed date of 2015-16. of the emergency Budget. Then at the Budget, the OBR The measures that we set out in the emergency Budget, produced a revised forecast on the basis of the consolidation alongside the departmental allocations that we set out measures announced by the Government. In November, in the spending review, represent a comprehensive four-year the OBR produced its economic and fiscal outlook plan to meet that fiscal mandate. The 2011 Budget under the leadership of Robert Chote, whose appointment reaffirmed the Government’s consolidation plans set last year was scrutinised and confirmed by the Treasury out last year, and reinforced them by implementing a Committee. balanced set of tax and expenditure policies. In the We have moved the OBR on to a permanent status assessment of the Office for Budget Responsibility, we that is underpinned by primary legislation. The 2011 are currently on track to meet the mandate and the Act establishes in statute the provisions necessary to supplementary debt target one year early, in 2014-15. secure the OBR’s independence, and it received Royal Assent on 22 March. The permanent budget responsibility Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the committee led on the production of the OBR’s March Minister recall that the decision was taken in the March economic and fiscal outlook, which was published alongside Budget to increase both spending and borrowing by the Budget 2011. £34 billion over the following four years? Will she The origin of the charter lies in the 2011 Act, which remind the House why we did that? requires the Government to prepare a charter relating 1307 Charter for Budget Responsibility11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1308

[Justine Greening] OBR to produce forecasts that cover at least five financial years, that provide sufficient information to allow the to fiscal policy and the management of the national Government to use them as a basis for policy decision debt, just as with the previous code for fiscal stability. and that include all the Government’s announced policy However, the 2011 Act enhances the requirements for decisions. The OBR must also set out the key assumptions the charter compared with the code, because it provides that underpin its forecasts. In fact, it has already published that the charter must formally set out the Government’s far more detail in its assumptions and judgments than fiscal objectives and mandate. The charter must in previous Budget and pre-Budget reports. The 2011 Act addition specify the minimum contents of the Budget ensures that this will continue in future publications, report. The 2011 Act states that the charter may include while the charter provides further detail on the set of guidance to the OBR on how it should perform its economic variables and fiscal aggregates that the forecasts duties. Finally, the 2011 Act requires the Government should include. to lay the charter before Parliament. The charter fulfils Of course, at this time of heightened uncertainty, the all those requirements, consistent with the 2011 Act and charter also sets out that the OBR must be clear about the remit of the OBR. the risks that it has factored into its forecasts. The OBR The first part of the charter covers the Government’s forecasts result in an assessment whether the Government fiscal framework. It sets out that the Government’s two are on track to meet their fiscal mandate, and the fiscal objectives are first to ensure sustainable public charter also sets out that the OBR independently scrutinises finances that support confidence in the economy, promote and certifies all the policy costings that feed into its intergenerational fairness and ensure the effectiveness fiscal and economic forecasts. Importantly, the 2011 Act of the wider Government policy, and secondly to support ensures that the OBR has a right of access to all and improve the effectiveness of monetary policy in Government information it requires to deliver its remit. stabilising economic fluctuations. As well as medium-term forecasts, the OBR will look As we have heard, the Government’s fiscal policy to the longer term. As we have heard, the OBR has a mandate is a forward-looking target to achieve cyclically duty to report on the sustainability of the public finances. adjusted current balance by the end of the rolling It will therefore produce an annual fiscal sustainability five-year forecast period. At this time of rapidly rising report that will include long-term projections of the debt, that mandate is supplemented by a target for public finances covering the next 50 years. The first public sector net debt as a percentage of GDP to be report is due out on 13 July. The charter sets out that as falling by a fixed date of 2015-16. That will ensure that well as those projections, the report will include an the public finances are restored to a sustainable path. assessment of the public sector balance sheet. The OBR Crucially, the charter cannot simply be ripped up and will also analyse its forecasting performance, drawing rewritten whenever is convenient for a Government. lessons for future forecasts from the inevitable differences Instead, if the Treasury wishes to alter the mandate, it between its forecasts and out-turn data. must follow the formal process set out in primary Finally, the charter provides guidance on a number of legislation and return to the House for approval, which administrative questions on the timing of interaction enhances the Government’s accountability to the House between the Treasury and the OBR. These are necessary for their fiscal targets. The charter reiterates the to ensure that the complex Budget process runs smoothly Government’s intention also to adopt as the official while preserving the OBR’s freedom to act independently. forecast the OBR’s economic and fiscal forecast, and if There is also a memorandum of understanding agreed the Treasury wishes to disagree with the OBR’s forecast, between Robert Chote, as chair of the Office for Budget it will have to explain why to Parliament. Finally, the Responsibility, and other Departments to support their charter sets out the Government’s debt management working arrangements. The charter restates and reinforces objective and how they will set and report on their the independence of the OBR, and none of the guidance financing remit. The charter covers each element of the undermines its impartiality or objectivity. Government’s fiscal policy framework in a statutory This charter lies at the heart of our reformed fiscal document that the House has the ability to approve, framework. It strengthens institutional arrangements, enhancing the Government’s accountability for their reinforces the independence of the OBR and restores fiscal policy. credibility and confidence to the public finance forecasts. I turn now to the second part of the charter. It is an important part of the charter that provides guidance to 8.55 pm the OBR on its role and duties. The OBR’s main duty, as set out in the 2011 Act, is to examine and report on Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I will bypass the sustainability of the public finances. The OBR has the first eight minutes of the Minister’s speech, in which complete discretion over how it carries out its statutory she reiterated the usual mantra about everything being duties, and the 2011 Act makes it clear that in all its Labour’s fault—she usually resorts to that when questioned work the OBR must be objective, transparent and impartial. about the Government’s policy, but today she started As part of this independence, the OBR has the freedom her speech with it—and instead focus on the charter. to decide the methodology that it uses, the forecast The Budget Responsibility and National Audit Act 2011 judgments that it takes, the contents of its documents was passed with consensus, at least on the principle of and its work programme for future research and analysis. setting up the Office for Budget Responsibility and This independence is delivered through the 2011 Act introducing the changes to the national audit process and therefore protected in primary legislation. that the previous Government had already floated and The purpose of this part of the charter is to set out that we would have implemented had we been re-elected extra detail on the OBR’s statutory responsibilities within in 2010. There was consensus on the principle, if not all the scope of the legislation. The charter requires the the details that we discussed in Committee. We welcome 1309 Charter for Budget Responsibility11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1310 the fact that the House is debating the charter in Such analysis is one of the fundamental roles of the Government time, as we received assurances in the OBR, yet neither the memorandum nor the charter Public Bill Committee that it would do so. Indeed, that explains the consequences of the OBR’s assessment formed a central part of our debates on the Bill and it is contradicting the Government’s own report. I will come a central facet of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s later to the worrying implications if the Treasury were functioning and relationship with the Government. to disregard the OBR’s verdict. However, I note that the Government have on previous We also discussed in the Public Bill Committee the occasions attempted to get this motion through on the possibility of duplication and inconsistencies in OBR nod at the end of the day’s business. Only after efforts and Bank of England forecasts. Neither the charter nor made by the Labour Opposition to secure a debate do the memorandum addresses that, and the Minister has we now have the opportunity to talk about the charter, previously advised that it would be for the two organisations which rather goes against the spirit of the reassurances to formalise their relationship in this respect. Perhaps that were given in Committee. Indeed, I questioned the she could update us on any discussions that the Treasury Minister repeatedly in Committee about what was meant has had with the two organisations on their roles, and by the phrase “laid before Parliament” and whether indeed on how the Chancellor intends to proceed in the such a promise would mean—not just on this occasion, event of a disagreement between the two. but on future occasions—a proper debate on the Floor of the House or the measure being put through on the Mr Redwood: Perhaps it would be a good idea if there nod. However, at least we are here now, with the opportunity were such a disagreement, because the Bank of England to discuss the issue. has been so bad at forecasting inflation, and we hope Debates on the Bill in Committee were, as I pointed that the OBR will be a bit better at it. out at the time, slightly hampered by the fact that we could discuss only the draft charter. I repeat my observation Kerry McCarthy: The Bank of England’s forecasts that it would have been better for the Committee—and have not always been as accurate as one might have for the House on Report when we approved the Bill—to hoped, but that proves my point: there could well be have a finalised form of the charter for consideration. I conflict between the Bank’s forecasts and the OBR’s note, however, that the final version laid before Parliament forecasts. It is therefore right to ask what the Government has not changed substantially, which is somewhat would do in such circumstances. Wouldsuch a disagreement unfortunate, as it has not been improved as much as we discredit the Bank of England’s forecasts? Will the had either been led to believe in Committee or had OBR be seen as the ultimate arbiter on such matters, or hoped for. will the Government be able to pick and choose whichever Chapter 1 of the charter refers to section 6(2) of the forecast suits their purposes? 2010 Act and confirms that Chapter 3 of the charter and the Government’s objectives “the Charter may not make provision about the methods by for fiscal policy are obviously at the core of the document. which the OBR is to perform its duty,” Some of the provisions in the charter might not be which is an additional provision. That is important and entirely necessary, however. For example, it places the crucial to the OBR’s independence. However, we pressed Treasury under a duty to prepare a Budget report for for the final version of the 2010 Act or the charter to each financial year, which one would hope would happen guarantee complete discretion on what the OBR can without it being told to do so. We acknowledge, however, consider, as well as how. Regrettably, as I shall set out that including the Government’s fiscal mandate in the later, that has not been included. Chapter 2 has not charter and consequently requiring any modifications been changed substantially, although we welcome the to be laid before the House is a welcome step. We hope inclusion of other Departments in the memorandum of that it will enhance Government accountability, although understanding with Mr Robert Chote, on behalf of the that should not be taken as an endorsement of the OBR, and the Treasury, which recognises that the work Government’s economic policy or of their fiscal policy of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the objectives. Department for Work and Pensions in particular is similarly pivotal to responsible fiscal policy and sustainable Regrettably, given that economic growth has flat-lined public finances. under this Government and that forecasts have repeatedly had to be downgraded, it remains to be seen whether Given the importance of the memorandum to the the Government are meeting their stated objectives— transparency, objectivity and impartiality of the OBR, particularly that of supporting confidence in the economy. it is only right that the House should consider it. We Nevertheless, we support the idea of working towards therefore welcome the Treasury’s publication of the maintaining confidence in the economy. The charter memorandum. The document refers to the forecast rightly acknowledges that achieving that must be the liaison group. Given the Government’s professed responsibility of the Government and not of the OBR. commitment to guaranteeing the transparency and independence of the OBR, will the Minister confirm The second objective, that of promoting inter- that the Treasury will publish the minutes of the group generational fairness, is much more contentious, and it meetings? If a dispute is escalated to the chair of the has been challenged here and in the other place. It is not OBR or the permanent secretaries, will a Minister report at all clear from the document what the Government to the House on the cause of the dispute and how they mean by the term, although from the Minister’s comments intend to solve it? Finally on the memorandum, it tonight and on previous occasions, I assume that it states: refers to passing debt from one generation to another, “Analysis of the direct impact of Government policies on the rather than to passing on wealth, advantage and public finances will be provided to the OBR for independent opportunity from one generation to another. If that is scrutiny which will state whether the OBR agrees or disagrees indeed the case, and the objective refers simply to with the Government’s costings”. inherited debt, it would appear that the Government 1311 Charter for Budget Responsibility11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1312

[Kerry McCarthy] that the burden has fallen on the most vulnerable. This Government have worked hard to protect the most under this Chancellor’s leadership have an exceptionally vulnerable. narrow conception of fairness which does not chime with most people’s understanding of the world. Kerry McCarthy: I shall come in a few moments to some of the Government’s measures that have done We should not be surprised by that, however, given precisely the opposite of what the hon. Lady claims. the Government’s record on fairness to date. A Government Will the Minister explain why thousands of people with who choose to take £7 billion of much-needed support disabilities—people in wheelchairs, people with chronic from children in their first Budget and comprehensive illnesses and so forth—were protesting outside Parliament spending review—three times the amount that they today under the banner of the Hardest Hit campaign, thought appropriate for bankers to pay—who choose to supported by reputable charities? Is she saying that target women for spending cuts, who choose to penalise being hit by what the Government are doing is a figment people on lower incomes, and who choose the regressive of their imagination? measure of increasing VAT can hardly be considered fair. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Does my hon. Earlier today, many of us met constituents supporting Friend think that those blind people and deaf people the Hardest Hit campaign for people with severe disabilities and the people in wheelchairs who were protesting and chronic illnesses, and I would ask the Government today are ungrateful to the Tory Government for what to explain to them how making people with disabilities they have done? and chronic illnesses pay the price for the financial crisis is fair. One of the constituents I met today is registered Kerry McCarthy: That certainly seems to be the blind and has a guide dog, but she has been told that she suggestion. For some, it seems that they should be is not eligible for the higher rate of disability living thankful as they do not realise how well off they are. allowance. She used to work for a bank, and she wants The Minister has come close to saying that they have to know why she is paying a bigger price for the financial “never had it so good” under this coalition Government. crisis than her former bosses in that industry. We talked in Committee about the Child Poverty Act 2010, and the Government have since published the Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am surprised that child poverty strategy. We pressed for a wider remit for the hon. Lady does not realise that the financial crisis is the Office for Budget Responsibility to include scrutinising the product of deficit, debt and debasement—in other the Government’s progress under the Act. Although the words, Government policy. Government rejected our amendment in Committee, I hope that the Office for Budget Responsibility will Kerry McCarthy: The financial crisis was global and consider the proposals again in due course, as tackling it started in the US. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting child poverty is a crucial element of inter-generational that the banks did not play a role in creating that fairness. It is disappointing that the Government do not financial crisis and that people such as my constituent, seem to recognise that. I hope that the OBR will be who are struggling to get by on disability living allowance afforded the necessary discretion to include this aspect and a modest income, were responsible for it? in defining its role. It is highly disputable whether the Government have Steve Baker: I know that the crisis originated in the any mandate from the country for their fiscal policy, banks, but it did so because of currency debasement, especially given that the Deputy Prime Minister led his which was a result of deficit spending—a Government party into the general election on an entirely different policy. approach. Although setting out fiscal objectives has its advantages, it is clear that the Government are bringing Kerry McCarthy: We cannot get into a whole debate in their targets far too early and cutting spending far about macro-economic policy. Needless to say, I disagree too fast, as is demonstrated in the forecast that they will with the hon. Gentleman’s analysis of how the financial need to borrow £46 billion more than was planned last crisis occurred. The point I was making—the intervention year because of their failure to promote economic was not particularly relevant to it—was that this growth successfully. That should prove to the Government Government’s action in reducing the deficit too far and that their fiscal mandate is not appropriate to the current too fast is hitting people at the bottom end of the economic climate and that a different approach is needed income scale far harder than it is hitting people such as to secure the economy on a sustainable footing. That bankers. If the Government were to adopt our suggestion explains why it is key for the OBR to make wider of introducing a banking bonus tax again this year, as reference to still fundamentally important economic we did last year, they would not have to make cuts that determinants such as employment and growth. hit people at the bottom so hard. Ensuring a responsible fiscal policy is clearly beyond the OBR’s remit; instead, it is this House’s responsibility Justine Greening: I find the hon. Lady’s comments to try to make the Government take heed of its advice. ironic in a debate welcoming a charter that sets out For that reason, the charter’s assertion that the Government some guidelines on the operation of the Office for “retains the right to disagree with the OBR’s forecasts” Budget Responsibility—an independent group of is a serious concern, especially when reliable forecasts forecasters who have looked at and then provided input will be so crucial to the forward-looking targets. The into distribution analysis showing that the richest people Government have made a great song and dance about have borne the greatest burden of deficit reduction. I do how the OBR will enhance the credibility of fiscal not understand how we can have that debate on the one forecasting because of its independence from the Treasury, hand, yet hear the hon. Lady saying on the other hand and the charter itself states: 1313 Charter for Budget Responsibility11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1314

“The OBR is designed to address past weaknesses in the seen to pass judgment on their merits. How does the credibility of economic and fiscal forecasting and, consequently, Minister think that such a provision will be policed, and fiscal policy”. who will be the arbiter of whether the OBR has overstepped However, enabling the Treasury to disregard independent the mark? official forecasts would make a mockery of the fundamental There is no reference in the charter or the memorandum purpose of the OBR. It would also lead to dangerous to the funding of the OBR, which we argued in Committee uncertainty about which official forecasts we can and was critical to its independence, but the charter does cannot believe, and which should inform fiscal policy. refer to the office’s discretion in regard to the timing of That is relevant to a point raised earlier by the right its publications, although that seems to be weakened by hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood). I urge the requirement for the Minister to clarify the status of the OBR and its forecasts. “a regular and predictable timetable”. According to chapter 4 of the charter, the role of the The fact that there have already been doubts about OBR is to whether reports have been published in time for Prime “examine and report on the sustainability of the public finances.” Minister’s Question Time reinforces the need not only to ensure that the wording of the charter is sufficient During the passage of the Budget Responsibility and but, more important, to ensure that it is followed in National Audit Act, a number of attempts were made both the letter and the spirit. to secure a broad definition of sustainability, and to persuade the Government to acknowledge that it was Our key reservation is that neither the Act nor the not enough to focus on the deficit in an insular way charter includes any means of ensuring enforceability. I while ignoring the impact on economic growth, have already mentioned the get-out clause that allows employment, inflation, and other factors that are central the Chancellor to ignore the OBR’s reports, but there is to sustainable finances and responsible fiscal policy. also no indication of the consequences of the Chancellor’s Although the Government rejected our amendment failing to meet his obligations under the charter. Will which sought to guarantee a multi-dimensional approach the Minister commit the Chancellor to reporting to to sustainability, arguing that the OBR should be able Parliament following OBR publications? Most important, to define the concept, the Minister reassured the Public will she commit the Treasury to listening and to responding Bill Committee that she intended to OBR reports in its actions as well as its words? “to amend the charter to require the OBR to set out how it will It is not enough for the Office for Budget Responsibility approach sustainability in each of its reports.”––[Official Report, to tell us whether the Chancellor is acting responsibly—we Budget Responsibility and National Audit Public Bill Committee, 1 know that he is not—and it is certainly not responsible March 2011; c. 48.] to disregard its advice or forecasts, but neither the OBR We therefore welcome the addition of paragraph 4.7 in nor the charter can do anything about that. Only the the final charter, which confirms that Chancellor can, and he must realise that a charter that “The OBR will consider a wide range of factors and dimensions proclaims the credibility of economic forecasting does relating to the sustainability of the public finances and will be not remedy the damage caused by the Government’s transparent in its approach. More generally, in each report published policies, and does not automatically translate into credible under its main duty, the OBR will explain the factors taken into policy. account when preparing the report, including the main assumptions and risks.” That reflects many of the concerns raised in both Houses. 9.14 pm The reference to risks is important, given that the David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): It is an honour to Government appear to be blinkered when it comes to speak in this debate. It may not be the best attended the risks that are inherent in their deficit reduction plan. debate, but I believe that in future years we will look We are also pleased that chapter 4 refers to projections back at the charter and the creation of the Office for of GDP, inflation and the labour market. However, the Budget Responsibility as a major step forward in the absence of any complementary references in chapter 3 way we manage this country’s fiscal policy. to the Government’s role, or indeed the Act, remains Mark Twain once said that prophecy—or, in this highly disconcerting. It suggests that the Government case, economic forecasting—is do not consider such fundamental considerations to be part of their role. I assure the Minister that promoting “a good line of business, but it is full of risks”, employment and growth are part of the Government’s and in respect of certain Governments it is sometimes responsibilities. Perhaps, in time, the OBR will help said that statistics, and even forecasts, can be used in the them to understand that. More positively, we welcome same way as the inclusion of paragraph 4.13, which confirms the “a drunken man uses lamp posts—for support rather than Office’s access to Government information, and the illumination.” omission of the definitions of “objectively”, “transparently” I therefore welcome the creation of the OBR, as I and “impartiality”, which are terms that the OBR is believe it will bring far greater transparency to the best placed to define. forecasting process and the management of our public We are slightly concerned about the inclusion of finances. paragraph 4.12, which is an additional provision and I want to refer back to what my hon. Friend the which states: Economic Secretary said in her opening remarks, and “The OBR should not provide normative commentary on the to talk a little about why the charter and the OBR particular merits of Government policies.” needed to be set up. The sheer scale of the recent There is a fine line between giving an impartial and economic crisis led many people to recognise the need informed assessment of the effectiveness of Government to rethink how forecasting is conducted. It was also policies in achieving the declared objectives, and being clear that Governments can be tempted to indulge in 1315 Charter for Budget Responsibility11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1316

[David Rutley] In conclusion, I hope that these short remarks have conveyed my strong support for this charter, and wishful thinking, and there was too much of that in the for the creation and clear processes of the OBR. It is a run-up to the credit crunch. Even Lord Turnbull in vital achievement which will bring about greater evidence to the Treasury Committee spoke about how it transparency, credibility and confidence in the had existed during successive quarters of economic forecasting process, and it represents a structural growth. Despite what has been claimed, it is the case change in the management of our fiscal policy. The that promises were made about an end to boom and OBR will play a vital role in helping to bring the bust, yet there was a boom and there certainly was a deficit back under control and to move this economy to bust. As a result, we clearly need to improve our approach sustainable growth. I wish the OBR every success in its to forecasting. endeavours, and I trust that the Treasury Committee In the current digital age, there is greater demand for will ensure that it gets the support it needs to carry out transparency in many areas, and that must include in its important tasks and hold future Governments to the development of forecasts for our economy and account for many decades to follow. I fully support the public finances. I therefore welcome the Chancellor’s motion. bold and important move to transfer the power to create such forecasts to the OBR. That will bring greater 9.20 pm objectivity to bear, and the forecasts will hold Governments Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Like all those of all shapes and sizes to account, which is definitely in who have participated in this debate, I welcome the four the long-term interests of our economy. principal aims identified in chapter 3 of this document. The creation of the OBR has also strengthened the It is exactly right when it says that we need to credibility of the Government’s efforts to tackle the “ensure sustainable public finances that support confidence in the current deficit and bring the UK economy back to economy”. sustainable economic growth, and I have been encouraged We see all too many examples within Europe of what by the comments of some highly respected bodies in happens to countries that lose the confidence of world this field. The Institute for Fiscal Studies says: markets and the world’s bank managers. We see that “The decision to transfer responsibility for official economic far from being able to sustain high and rising public and public finance forecasts from ministers to economic experts is spending, such countries end up with far worse cuts a very welcome one. It does not guarantee that the forecasts will that can be deeply damaging to their public services be accurate, but it will reassure people that they reflect professional and social fabric. The Greeks seem to be getting into judgement rather than politically motivated wishful thinking.” ever bigger difficulties the more money that is lent to That is important. The OECD says: the country on soft terms and the more that their “The OBR will support the consolidation process, improve the Government fight to contain the deficit. We want to quality and credibility of information and lay a sound basis for avoid getting into that vicious circle in which a Government the forward-looking framework.” raise taxes and cut spending, and the deficit grows Finally, the International Monetary Fund says: because the economy plunges again and the revenues dry up even more. I think that hon. Members on both “The OBR complements the government’s commitment to sides of the House now agree that it is most important fiscal discipline by enhancing the transparency and credibility of the budget process and helping inform policy decisions.” that we undertake the work to ensure sustainable public finances. The “credibility” that is mentioned in just about each When I listen to the debate in this House, I sometimes of these quotes is a vital commodity. It will build feel that very few people have read the numbers in the confidence in the debt markets and help to address the Red Book. The Government’s pathway is to borrow costs of funding our enormous burden of debt, and it more than £480 billion extra over the five years for will build confidence in businesses, and in their investment which they are planning. That is more than the total decisions. It will be vital in helping to bring about state debt 10 years ago; it is a massive sum. Some people significant and sustained growth. think that we are going to be paying off the debt or As a former member of the Treasury Committee, I paying off the deficit, but we are not. was fortunate enough to have been able to participate in This Government have, for understandable reasons, the appointment of Robert Chote as chairman of the decided that they need to increase current public spending OBR and the other members of the budget responsibility in each of the five years of this Parliament so that the committee. Giving the Treasury Committee the power impact of their decisions on public services can be of consent over appointments and dismissals was another gentle—I hope that in many cases it will not be felt in welcome move by the Chancellor, and has given Parliament any bad way. As a result of that understandable decision, a far greater say in these all-important matters. this massive borrowing has to be undertaken and the The good news is that there has been very encouraging public debt will be so much greater at the end of the initial progress. The OBR has created thorough forecasts period. That makes it very important that we stick to and supporting analysis, which has been welcomed on the pathway of getting the deficit down, so that each both sides of the House. It has become an important year we borrow a bit less extra than the year before. reference point in a very short period of time. It is vital That is the aim of the strategy. Some people seem to that it builds on that reputation. I am pleased to see that describe it in rather different and more draconian or more forecasts and reports are planned, including, as alarmist ways, but the Government are simply trying to the Economic Secretary mentioned, the fiscal sustainability cut the rate of increase in the debt. If all goes well over report that will be published later this year to give a five years, we will still end up making a far bigger truly long-term view of the future of our public finances. increase in the debt than the total state debt just 10 years That is most welcome. ago. 1317 Charter for Budget Responsibility11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1318

I am delighted that the second aim given in this involvement, but not sole control, over how much money document is to is printed. The Chancellor and the Treasury do not run “support and improve the effectiveness of monetary policy in the whole policy and that could become a problem stabilising economic fluctuations.” again in the future if the independent bodies make a It is my view that the boom and bust were primarily mess again, as they clearly did in the boom and bust created by a very badly managed monetary policy over phases we have recently lived through. the previous seven to eight years. We had the boom I hope a little more thought will go into how the phase, when money was too easy, interest rates were too charter can be implemented. I am sure that my hon. low and credit expanded too rapidly. Even worse, we Friend the Minister will agree that whatever the theory had the bust phase, when the market was cleared of about independence might be, as far as the electorate is liquid funds, when interest rates were too high, and concerned the people responsible for the state of the when the then Government were far too tight and economy and therefore the conduct of monetary policy jeopardised the financial system itself by pursuing a are the elected officials—the Ministers. If Ministers ridiculously tight money policy at the very point when it wish to delegate that responsibility to an independent was obvious that banks were at risk and the system was body, they are entitled to do so and the public will be in danger of collapse. happy with that all the time it works but extremely unhappy if the independent body gets it wrong. Chris Ruane: Will the right hon. Gentleman refresh the House’s memory on his advice to the previous That brings me to my third point. Although I am Government on the regulation of the banks? happy with the aims and principles of the charter, I would caution the Minister that we should not place Mr Redwood: I can indeed and I am glad that the too much confidence in independence as the only virtue hon. Gentleman did not dare to repeat the normal that is needed to get these things right. We have had an falsehood that has often been put about. The advice we experiment with a so-called independent Bank of England gave was that they did not have enough regulatory for more than a decade now and that has been our control over the cash and capital of the banks, that they worst decade for boom and bust since the 1930s. That is needed tougher regulation of cash and capital and that not entirely the responsibility of the Bank of England their mortgage regulation of process and customer was but it was part of the team that managed to preside over worthless and would not prevent disasters in the mortgage too much boom, too much credit and too much inflation market. I rest my case: that is exactly what happened. and then over too little credit, too little liquidity and The mortgage banks were not protected by their bankruptcies on a scale that none of us in this House regulation—it probably made things even worse—and had ever seen before. That shows that independence is the then Government failed to regulate the things that no guarantee of success. did matter that could have prevented the crisis. I hope We also see from the Bank of England that its inflation that the hon. Gentleman is put right on that now and forecasts have been way out for quite some time— will no longer read out the stupid spin lines from the Labour party created by people who clearly had not Chris Ruane: What about the growth forecasts? read the economic report to which he is referring. I was trying to keep this non-partisan, but he has decided to spoil the tone— Mr Redwood: I am coming to the growth forecasts, if the hon. Gentleman will be patient. The Bank’s inflation Chris Ruane: So was I. I was giving the right hon. forecasts might perhaps have helped to mislead the Gentleman an opportunity. previous Government as well as the present one. Those forecasts assumed that we would be somewhere around Mr Redwood: I am grateful then. I did not realise that 2% when of course we have reached 5% or more on the the hon. Gentleman was being so generous. retail prices index and 4.4% on the consumer prices If we are going to support and improve the effectiveness index. Today, we have had another revision to the of monetary policy, I hope the Government will think inflation forecasts from the Bank of England saying through how that will work. It is one thing to have a that there might be more inflationary pain to come over charter to say that we will do this, which is something the summer of this year before we start to see progress about which I am very relaxed—it is a laudable aim—but back to somewhere near the 2% target. it is another to ask how it will occur. The problem with I wish the Office for Budget Responsibility every the conduct of monetary policy—this applied to the success and hope that it will be more successful in its previous Government as well as to this Government—is forecasts than the Bank of England has been in recent that it is not entirely in the hands of the Treasury. I years. Today, the Bank had to announce not only an happen to believe that it is ultimately the responsibility upward revision to this year’s inflation but a downward of the Chancellor and the Treasury to conduct an revision to this year’s growth. The OBR has already had honest money policy that avoids undue booms as well to revise down its near-term year’s growth forecast in as bankruptcies and busts. That requires judgment. March of this year compared with its autumn forecast The main elements of that policy, however, are conducted last year. at the moment by the Financial Services Authority, My worry about the current forecasts is that the which determines how much banks can lend and admits assumption that we are going to have three years of it got it wrong in the boom period. I think that the FSA above-trend growth over the balance of this Parliament also got it wrong in the bust period and managed to go after next year could be optimistic if the world economic with the cycle, thereby reinforcing it, rather than leaning slow-down, which is likely next year, continues for any against it as it should have done. We also have the Bank length of time. If the euro crisis gets worse and creates of England setting interest rates and having some more financial and economic turmoil among our major 1319 Charter for Budget Responsibility11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1320

[Mr Redwood] it should take the opportunity that will be presented by the new regime for controlling the banks, which will be industrial trading partners on the continent or if there introduced when many powers are passed to the Bank are unforeseen problems with the rate of slow-down in of England, to say that the Treasury and the Chancellor the emerging market economies, which are currently must have a role in all that because it was definitely the applying tough monetary medicine to try to curb their regulation of banks and the bad conduct in monetary inflation, it could be that much more difficult to hit policy that gave us the huge pain of the past six or seven those Budget targets. That is all important, because we years. We probably need more intervention from the have as a third aim the laudable idea of a forward-looking Treasury and more accountability to the Treasury to try target to get the current balance or deficit down and to and get the system to work in the future. get a better balance between revenues and expenditure. The Opposition love to say that the crisis was a global I have explained that the five-year strategy assumes a crisis and that therefore one should not blame any very substantial cash increase in total public spending— particular part of the UK governing establishment. I do around £94 billion from memory—and higher public not take that view. It was a largely western crisis and spending on current account in the last year, compared there were some advanced economies that were not with Labour’s last year, over this five-year Parliament. affected by it. Australia had a particularly good period, The way in which the deficit comes down in the official China had a pretty good period, and India sailed right forecasts is mainly through a big increase in tax revenue. through without any problems. There were small and That big increase partly reflects the higher VAT rate and big economies that were not affected by the world crisis, other higher tax rates that have already been imposed, even though global activity was hit, because American, but it mainly reflects the very good growth prospect in British, Spanish and Irish activity was hit in a very which we have three years of well-above-trend growth predictable way. in the last three years of the period, accelerating from It was a rather limited number of countries that had now onwards to that good performance. If there is any gross mismanagement of their money supply and their disappointment or need for downward revision by the banking systems. As the election is well behind us we OBR, that is going to throw out the tax revenues and we should, in a non-partisan spirit, analyse what went will therefore be faced with a bigger deficit that will wrong, admit that things went wrong in Britain, and require handling. We hear much debate in the House make sure that the new architecture, of which the and in the media about whether the Government are charter is just part, functions much better than the old trying to reduce the deficit too quickly, but the House architecture. That means questioning the assumption should understand that there are risks the other way as that independent people always get it right. It means well. If growth and tax revenue do not come through at understanding the ultimate accountability of the senior the scale anticipated, we will be faced with rather more elected officials, and it means understanding that sometimes invidious issues to resolve about how to get the deficit we need to be more pessimistic, at least in our private down without that great super-boost from the revenue. forecasts, so that we do not discover that our plans do The objective for debt management is to minimise not work. over the long term the cost of meeting the Government’s financing needs, taking into account risk. This is exactly 9.36 pm the point I am trying to stress in this short debate. So Justine Greening: With the leave of the House, I shall far, the markets like the Government’s strong stance. sum up the debate and respond to some of the points They are pleased that the Government have regarded that have been made. I thank hon. Members for their deficit reduction as the No. 1 thing they have to do and contributions. As I said at the start of this evening’s they are pleased with the OBR’s independent forecast proceedings, it is essential that we restore the sustainability showing that the rate of increase in debt drops off quite of the public finances. My right hon. Friend the Member nicely over the five-year period. However, they will not for Wokingham(Mr Redwood) set out clearly the challenges be pleased if there is major slippage or if the OBR has that we face in doing that, the steps that we are taking been too optimistic, so it is most important that we have and why they are so important. the right people in the OBR, that it has good fortune with its forecasts and that it has taken into account the The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) possibility, for example, of a deterioration in the asked about the relationship between the OBR and the international background, which could have an impact. Bank of England and their ongoing discussions. Ultimately, it is for the OBR to decide how it wants to work with In conclusion, I welcome the aims but I hope that the the Bank of England. It must make those decisions on Treasury will consider the following important points. its own and carry them out independently. The OBR’s First, we must understand that just because a body is forecast will be used as an official forecast for the independent, that does not mean it gets things right. Government. As the hon. Lady knows, that is provided The Treasury will have to operate its own scepticism for in the Budget Responsibility and National Audit about the forecasts. If the OBR were too optimistic, it Act 2011 and in the charter. She asked what would would be wise of the Treasury, at least privately, to have happen if the Chancellor of the day did not agree with done some work on what might happen if the forecasts the OBR forecast. He would have to come to the House were too optimistic. One should not always assume that and explain why not, and he would be accountable. the OBR forecast is the worst case and that life is likely That is one of the safeguards that we put into the Act, to be better. The Treasury should be very careful about and it will strengthen the OBR’s role. that. The hon. Lady raised concerns about paragraph 4.12, Secondly, the Treasury should do some contingency about the OBR not providing “normative commentary”. planning in case the world economy is worse than We had the debate in Committee and as the Budget anticipated and has an impact on growth rates. Thirdly, Responsibility and National Audit Bill passed through 1321 Charter for Budget Responsibility11 MAY 2011 Charter for Budget Responsibility 1322

Parliament. It is critical that we preserve the OBR’s the mandate. The charter reinforces that independence impartiality by ensuring that it never gets dragged into and, by providing greater clarity on the interaction political debate on specific policy measures. Paragraph 4.12 between the Treasury and the OBR, sets out the OBR’s puts that beyond doubt. key relationships and how it will work with the Treasury I take this opportunity to reassure my right hon. and other Government Departments. The charter reiterates Friend the Member for Wokingham. He spoke about our intention to adopt the OBR’s economic and fiscal ensuring that the OBR does its job, not just in terms of forecasts as the official forecasts, as we have done since what it is meant to be doing, but in terms of the quality. last May. As he knows, the Act—the relevant schedule—provides The hon. Member for Bristol East asked whether the for the OBR to have non-executive members. It will Chancellor will respond to those forecasts as they come periodically have an external review of its effectiveness. out. He has in fact responded with an oral statement to Aside from the normal scrutiny mechanism, the House every forecast the OBR has published to date. Compared can ask the Treasury Committee to examine the effectiveness with the code for fiscal stability introduced by the of the OBR. So those safeguards will be in place to previous Government, the charter provides a greater make sure not only that the OBR operates as intended degree of accountability before Parliament for the fiscal and operates independently, but that there will be scrutiny framework. It requires us to set out formally our fiscal of the quality of its work. One of the reports that it objectives and mandate before Parliament and specifies must publish periodically is its own assessment of how the contents of the Budget report. The hon. Lady said effective it is at forecasting. that it is obvious that there will need to be a Budget With those safeguards in place, the charter, along report, but I still think that it is important to have that with the Act, restores confidence and credibility to the clearly set out. Many people expected the previous public finances. It sets a reformed fiscal framework Government to get on with the ordinary course of before Parliament and the public and complements the business by having a comprehensive spending review, Act by providing extra detail on the OBR’s duties but of course that was cancelled. Therefore, I think that within the scope of it. it is important to put what seem to be normal assumptions My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David about how a Government should approach things into Rutley) talked about his role on the Treasury Select the charter, which is precisely what we have done in Committee. I think that he was wise to point out that relation to the Budget report. the Committee has a unique role, in relation to other In conclusion, the charter reflects our commitment to Select Committees, because it will have a role in appointing restore order to the public finances. It sets out our fiscal members to the budget responsibility committee. That objectives and mandate for parliamentary approval. It is an important role that will also strengthen the OBR’s strengthens governance arrangements and institutions organisation and its evolution over time. and reinforces the independence of the OBR. The OBR has complete discretion over how it performs Question put and agreed to. its statutory duties. It will make its own judgments on the economy and public finances and will use its own Resolved, methodology to produce forecasts. It will make its own That the Charter for Budget Responsibility, a copy of which assessment of the Government’s performance against was laid before this House on 4 April, be approved. 1323 11 MAY 2011 Back to Work Agenda 1324

Back to Work Agenda There is a good blend of the public, private and voluntary sectors. As the work has been going on for Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House almost 10 years, there are bonds of trust and co-operation do now adjourn.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) between and within all three sectors, each reinforcing the other and often coming together informally, outside 9.42 pm set meetings, to help in developing initiatives. There is good feedback from the overseeing bodies at the Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Great changes Department for Work and Pensions and the Welsh have been introduced in the back to work agenda over Assembly Government, and from within our own the past year and many more will shortly follow. I organisation. Success is celebrated and failure is fixed. believe that many of this Government’s decisions have The strategy has used a number of novel schemes to been taken in haste and without a proper assessment of connect with the unemployed. It is not simply about what does and does not work in the back to work sending a man or a woman in a grey suit with a big stick agenda. from the Government to tell the unemployed that they I have been involved in the back to work agenda in have to get back to work. In my constituency the my constituency for the past nine years. In 2002 I strategy has dealt with those furthest away from the noticed that 50% of the unemployed people in my jobs market—unemployed people who may never have county, Denbighshire, lived in just two of the 34 wards: succeeded in school, who have lost confidence in themselves the west ward of Rhyl, a traditional seaside ward with and faith in society, who have many problems with many houses in multiple occupation, and Rhyl South drugs and alcohol, and who lead chaotic lives and West, a ward with a large council estate. Indeed, that is change address regularly. the council estate on which I grew up and spent 26 years In order truly to connect with people who face such of my life. multiple barriers, we have developed a number of novel In 2007, after I had convened a back to work agenda projects in conjunction and co-operation with many in my constituency, we heard that the Labour Government diverse local groups. I wish to mention a few of them. were introducing a national pilot scheme to get people Rhyl football club operates football in the community, back to work. It was called the city strategy. Along with using unemployed people’s interest in football to sign Gareth Matthews of Working Links, I lobbied Work them up for skills training and job placements in the and Pensions Ministers to include Rhyl in the pilot. local sports sector. Rhyl was not a city—only 27,000 people lived in it—but Coastal Hawks is a project to train local young it did have city-type unemployment problems on a small people in the art of falconry. They use those skills to scale, as thousands of unemployed people had fled the keep seagulls and pigeons, which blight town centres inner cities of Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham and cause damage, away from Rhyl town centre. They and come to such seaside towns. We have concentrated dress up in medieval costume while doing this, engage areas of deprivation and unemployment. I asked if with the public, and are in effect a tourist attraction. Rhyl could be the pilot for the unemployment initiatives They were the subject of a TV programme—but now, in seaside towns, and my wishes were granted, with because of cuts, they may be disbanded. Rhyl becoming one of just 15 areas accepted into the city strategy. The Hub, a youth project in Rhyl with 1,000 young people on its books, is located in the heart of the Since 2007 Rhyl City Strategy has gone from strength poorest community not only in Wales but, probably, in to strength. It administered one of the most successful the whole country. It is self-financing, and in the past future jobs funds in Wales, putting 450 long-term three years it has had two extensions that have been unemployed people back to work, and it won a bid to built by the local unemployed youngsters who use the become a national pilot for the fit for work scheme. centre. It has been part-financed by the 10 back to work Rhyl City Strategy is supported by a consortium of organisations that want to gain access to those 1,000 young more than 180 people from 70 different organisations in people. They rent office space from the Hub, and the the public, private and voluntary sectors, and there is a money is then reinvested in the Hub. management board of 25 organisations that deals with A local market has been established in Rhyl town the nitty-gritty of putting people back to work. Those centre, and the organisers are training 10 local unemployed two parts of the organisation meet four times a year, people to take stalls on it. The organisers provide and the consortium now meets to deal with different professional training through North Wales Training themes relating to the back to work agenda. Best practice and give the trainees a stall to turn that theory into is swapped, initiatives are shared and support is given. practice. Some of the people on the training scheme Co-operation is maximised and duplication and ignorance have multiple problems and are making a valiant attempt are minimised. It is one of the most successful organisations to recover from alcoholism. A separate TV programme that I have been involved with in the past 25 years of my is being made about that project. public life. The Government say that they want to encourage There are a number of reasons for that success. enterprise, and I share their goal. We are doing it, and The board is headed by the private sector: the chair is doing it successfully in Rhyl, the home of Albert Gubay’s Barry Mellor, the north Wales manager of Arriva buses. Kwik Save and also of Iceland—two supermarket chains The organisation views the issues from the perspective that changed the face of UK and world trading. We of the employer as well as the employee. Rhyl City wish to rediscover that spirit of enterprise. Strategy is a community interest company, which gives it tremendous flexibility, and decisions do not have to Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is important be referred back for months of county council committee that young people have the opportunity of a job at the meetings. end of the day, and the hon. Gentleman says that that is 1325 Back to Work Agenda11 MAY 2011 Back to Work Agenda 1326 happening. It is also important to instil confidence and year zero and do away with all that Labour to provide opportunities. Is it also important to have a implemented—as much out of political spite as any Government who are committed to the public sector, so desire to help the unemployed—and believe that any that the job opportunities in that are there, too, for the “lefty-sounding” package, such as the new deal, must be young people? disparaged. The future jobs fund was viewed by seasoned practitioners as the best back to work scheme that has Chris Ruane: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman, been created, because it recognised the dignity of the and I shall come to that point shortly. individual and dealt with people as individuals. It raised their confidence, gave them meaningful employment The Dewi Sant centre in Rhyl works with dozens of and, most of all, gave them a wage at the end of the people who have massive drug and alcohol problems, week. The FJF was not like the skivvy schemes introduced some of whom have literally been taken off the streets. by the Tories in their 18-year reign—but it was ended Its clients are then given training away from the urban within weeks of the Government gaining power, without centre on a 7 acre farm donated by a local business any independent assessment of its contribution to the man. They are being trained in the art of bee-keeping back to work agenda. and other rural skills. They are organising a community harvest collecting unwanted apples, pears and berries I am worried by the language, tone and philosophy of from local people and turning the fruit into preserves. the Government. They look on unemployed people as feckless scroungers who should be chased back to work A week on Monday, I will be the master of ceremonies with a big stick even when no work is available—even at the opening of a Jamie Oliver-type training restaurant when it is the Government themselves who are laying called Taste. The building was empty for five years and off those people. They are putting 500,000 workers on has now been refitted to the highest standards by a the dole and then stigmatising them. The voluntary top-class designer called Jamie Alcock. It will train sector and the public sector will walk away from young people how to cook, wait on tables, and generally Government initiatives that stigmatise people. The voluntary run a restaurant. Those young people will then gain sector has no interest in that approach. work in our local hospitality sector. Three weeks ago I was at the first presentation night I am worried about the directives coming from the for a back-to-work scheme aimed at 70 unemployed DWP instructing local benefit advisers to trick people young men and women to improve their child care out of their benefits. They give advisers targets of two skills. This has a double benefit in that those skills will to three clients a week to punish by taking away their be used by them in bringing up their own children, but benefits. The Minister described those allegations made will also help to increase the quality and quantity of the in The Guardian as claptrap—until he was shown the child care work force. The presentation evening was e-mail evidence that it was happening. highly emotional, as each young person got up to give a I am worried that the Government have no policy for brief personal history and then went on to say how the dealing with areas such as mine, with nearly 50% of its scheme had rebuilt their confidence, returned their pride workers—13,000—in the public sector. The Government and helped them to gain employment. Of the first want to sack between 10% and 27% of these workers, 10 who had been through the scheme, eight had gained pushing them on to the dole queue. Seaside towns such employment and two had gone back to college. as mine, with many public sector workers, could end up The training for many of the initiatives is supplied by like the coal and steel towns of the 1980s—the towns a range of private sector trainers and also by Rhyl the Tories decimated. The Government say they want college, which was established by Labour 10 years ago. private enterprise to take on those workers. But when I This £10 million college has had two extensions in four tabled a parliamentary question on the budgets that the years—a further £7 million investment—and has won a Government have allocated for enterprise clubs, the UK beacon award for widening participation. It is answer came back that £3 million had been allocated— located in the heart of the fifth poorest ward in Wales, £3 million for 3 million workers, or £1 each. and its outreach work, through many of the organisations My biggest worry is that nationally there is no growth I have mentioned, has helped virtually to eliminate the strategy and no jobs strategy. Recent emergency meetings category of NEETS—those not in education, employment have been held in government to try, belatedly, to correct or training. that, but the comprehensive spending review and the Our local schools have also turned themselves round Budget did nothing to help create jobs and growth. As a under the political leadership of an independent, Councillor result the economy, which was recovering under Labour, Hugh Evans—I give credit to him—and a new chief has flatlined for the past six months. executive, Mohammed Mehmet. The private sector, too, It is not just me, a Labour Back Bencher, who is has played its full part. Tesco has said that it will take making these points; this is also what the experts are 50% of its new employees from the dole register. Serco, saying. The director of the National Institute of Economic whose Welsh chief executive, Gareth Matthews, has and Social Research said that we should be seeing quite driven our local back to work agenda for nearly 10 years, a sharp recovery, but that looking back over the past six has located a regional office not in a leafy business months we have had no growth in output at all, and it is park, but in the middle of the street with the greatest very disappointing. The chief economist at the Office social need in the whole of Wales, creating 35 jobs. I am for National Statistics said: proud of our local back to work agenda. “we have an economy on a plateau”. I now turn to my concerns about the Government’s back to work agenda. I am concerned that their new The Office for Budget Responsibility has revised down proposals will not recognise the good practice and its growth forecast for 2011 from 2.6% to just 1.7%. That progress that has gone before. They want to start from will have a devastating impact on jobs and growth. 1327 Back to Work Agenda11 MAY 2011 Back to Work Agenda 1328

[Chris Ruane] I am well aware of the excellent work that has been done on the ground in Rhyl. It is a good example of The gains in the private sector proclaimed by the how a partnership between providers, local authorities, Government were achieved largely as a result of what local business and other organisations to help people was done in the dying days of the Labour Government. into employment can be fruitful. He referred to Working The Government boast of an extra 350,000 jobs in the Links, and he will be aware that it is one of the preferred private sector, but most of those were created in the first bidders for the Work programme across Wales. It has quarter of their Administration. certainly built experience in Rhyl that can be used in the Unemployment in my constituency was 4.7% in rest of Wales. However, that was where it stopped, and December 2009. It fell dramatically, to 3.9%, in the six for the last five minutes of the hon. Gentleman’s speech, months to June 2010 under Labour. Under the Tories it one would have believed that we were back to the has gone back up to 4.4%—and that is before the rhetoric of the 1980s and the Morning Star. We heard a Government sack thousands of public sector workers in rather outdated view of class war and an apparent my constituency. I fear particularly for the unemployed belief that Conservative Members and the Government young people in my constituency. There were 735 in have no interest in helping employment. He could not December 2009, and that went down by nearly 30% in be more wrong. He needs to understand, first and the six months to June 2010, to just 530, under Labour. foremost, the legacy that we inherited. Under the Tories, youth unemployment in my constituency One would have believed from listening to the hon. has shot back up to 730. That happened as my local Gentleman that the past 15 years were a period of great FJF took 450 young people off the dole. If those people employment success, but nothing could be further from were added on, the figure would be nearly 1,200 young the truth. We have gone through a long period in which people on the dole. Political spite has its price. we have consistently had almost 5 million people on “Panorama” is making a programme on the back to out-of-work benefits. Although there have been increases work agenda in seaside towns. It came to my town and in employment, such as the growth by almost 4 million presented me with a stick of rock, through which is in the past few years, we know thanks to the assiduous written, “A JOB TO GET WORK”. It is a job to get work of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), work, because of many of the policies that the Government who spent a lot of time in the previous Parliament have introduced. The intricate web of employment teasing out of the previous Government the reality of opportunities that we have created in Rhyl over the past the labour market, that far too many of those jobs—indeed, 10 years is in danger of being swamped if the Government’s the majority—went not to unemployed people in this plans are not properly introduced. country but to people coming to the UK from overseas. The Government need to end their targets to force That was a great tragedy and a great failure. Billions of and trick people off benefits. They need to work pounds were spent on nationally organised back-to-work co-operatively with the public and voluntary sector, schemes that did not deliver the change that we needed. especially where there is a proven track record. They The hon. Gentleman made a good point when he said need to change the language through which the back to that he did not want to see the man or woman coming work debate is being conducted. They need to ensure from Whitehall with a big stick to try to get people into that those who are furthest from the jobs market are not work. I agree with him, but that was the failing of the left behind while the more able are cherry-picked by previous Government’s policy. Programmes were designed private sector companies. They need to put aside party in Whitehall, to a template designed in Whitehall and politics, accept what was good practice under the previous on a contractual basis designed in Whitehall, and they Government and carry it on. They need to develop a did not deliver the improvement that we needed. That is strategy to deal with areas with huge numbers of public why we are determined to change things and have sector workers, so that we do not have coal and steel brought an entirely fresh approach to back-to-work town-type unemployment in the next decade. If they are programmes. I believe that that approach will help and serious about the private sector providing jobs for sacked harness the expertise that has been built up in his town public sector workers, they need to give specific help to of Rhyl over the months and years. promote enterprise among the unemployed; £3 million Let me explain to the hon. Gentleman how the Work is not enough. Most of all, the Government need to programme is designed to work. He will be aware that develop a coherent strategy to promote growth and jobs the contracting of the programme has involved not only across the board, not as an afterthought but as a key individual prime contractors such as Working Links component of getting the country back to full employment. but a network of private small businesses, voluntary organisations, local charities, local groups with expertise 9.58 pm on the ground in dealing with unemployment challenges The Minister of State, Department for Work and and local public sector bodies. A number of local Pensions (Chris Grayling): For at least the last five colleges are also involved in delivering the Work programme. minutes of the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, that was We have decided to say to those providers that it is not a really disappointing speech. He spent 10 minutes the Government who know best how to get people into setting out very eloquently the benefits of localism in work, and who are best placed to design the programmes Rhyl and the work that has been done by the local that will work in various parts of the country, it is the community to help young people and people of all ages professionals on the ground. into work. I listened with care, and he was actually We have said that we will leave it to the providers to making a good argument for the approach that we are design what works. We want to encourage them to form taking in the Work programme. In a moment, I will set excellent local partnerships such as the hon. Gentleman out how we hope that the Work programme will address describes as having worked well in Rhyl. The only thing some of the challenges faced by towns such as his. that we ask of them is that they succeed. We have put in 1329 Back to Work Agenda11 MAY 2011 Back to Work Agenda 1330 place a payment-by-results regime, in which the prime Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I appreciate the contractors are investing £580 million over the next need recognise that unemployed people are individuals 12 months. We have confidence in their ability to build with individual circumstances, to which the Minister consortia of organisations and local partnerships, and has referred. My concern is that Jobcentre Plus does not in their capability to transform the lives of unemployed always recognise that at a local level in respect, for individuals around the country. We will reward them example, of the new requirement that lone parents seek when they succeed in getting the unemployed into work. work when their youngest child is aged seven—the age The scheme is designed to deliver the type of localism is eight at the moment. I hear tales of people being told that he described in Rhyl. We believe that localism can that they are regarded as not looking for work, because work well around the country, and it is the essence of they say that they cannot work in the evenings because the Work programme and the black box approach. babysitters are unavailable, or because they turn down a job that starts at 9.30 am and they have to drop the kids Chris Ruane: We’ve been doing it for 10 years. off at school on the other side of town at 9 am. Will the Minister reassure me that such people will not be penalised? Chris Grayling: No, the tragedy is that the Labour Government did not do that for 10 years. There were Chris Grayling: I can absolutely give the hon. Lady one or two isolated pockets where there were very good that reassurance. She will know that there is a definition local partnerships, and the hon. Gentleman has described of reasonableness in deciding whether somebody should one in Rhyl which was clearly very good, but in too be required to take a job. We only expect lone parents many places that did not happen. Individual communities with a child at primary school to take up a job that is did not have the type of support that he described. They consistent with school hours—it would be absurd to had top-down programmes designed in Whitehall. The expect a lone parent to work a night shift, for example. I man or woman from Whitehall with the big stick did absolutely assure her that that is the case. indeed go down and tell people how things should be While we are on that point, I will pick up the point done. that the hon. Gentleman raised on targets. The truth is I remember that when I held the work and pensions that we discovered that problem, were horrified about it brief in opposition, I used to receive regular e-mails and and put a stop to it immediately. However, is he aware letters from people who had been referred to the of the roots of the problem? The roots are in a set of employment programmes that the previous Government benchmarks that were introduced by Jobcentre Plus had put in place and were hugely frustrated. They were regions to judge whether appropriate sanctions were being referred for a 13-week period, more often than being achieved in each area, why there were differences, not to sit in a classroom for the entire time, with a few and whether policy was being applied uniformly. In an lessons on how to fill in a CV and do interviews and the organisation that is, in my view, too target and detail- occasional work placement. However, they absolutely focused, the consequence was that in some areas, that did not get the type of diverse programme that the hon. was interpreted as a need to apply the individual target Gentleman described. of which the hon. Gentleman is now aware. I am all in favour of some of the initiatives that the However, the hon. Gentleman might be unaware that hon. Gentleman mentioned, although I do not know the those benchmarks were introduced in 2006 under the details of every one. He described young people the previous Government. Jobcentre Plus is much too setting up their own market stalls and unemployed focused on targets and goals. Benchmarks are turned young people rebuilding community centres to gain the into individual targets for front-line staff, and the skills that they need. I applaud such valuable initiatives. organisation’s culture does not appreciate the fact that One thing that excites me when I look at the ideas of we want front-line individuals to use discretion. We are Work programme bidders is that we have challenged going through a long change process after 13 years. them to move beyond where they were before. We set a Jobcentre Plus is used to taking diktats from the top, minimum performance standard in excess of what previous but this Government are saying, “We want you to use national programmes had achieved, precisely because discretion in the front line and to take the right decisions we wanted to drive innovation, new ideas and much in the interests of individual with whom you are dealing. more tailored provision. I do not want one-size-fits-all We do not want you constantly to look back over your provisions, because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, they shoulder to ask what the centre is saying.” That is an do not work. A wide variety of individuals have been on important development, but it will take us time to feed benefits for the long term. He referred to young people through the whole organisation. who grew up in households in which their parents and Ironically, given what the hon. Gentleman said about grandparents did not work, and who had no experience targets, it dates back to changes made by the Labour of a working environment as they grew up. We must party when it was in power. Indeed, last April it changed help those people back into an understanding of what the rules actively to encourage an increase in the number they can achieve in the workplace. Some older people of sanctions—again, something that we inherited. It is find that the profession that they spent 20 or 30 years in easy to look at the current Government and say, “What is no longer available to them. We need to help them to are you doing?”, but actually it is a problem which we find something different to do with the remainder of inherited, which has grown and which we are now their working years. trying to unpick. The Government have actively sought new ideas and The hon. Gentleman referred to the future jobs fund. a new approach. The exciting thing about the Work I know that Labour Members are wedded to it, but in programme bids is that there have been real signs of truth it cost four times as much per job outcome as the innovation that move beyond that 13 weeks in the previous Government’s other scheme, the new deal for classroom and the structure of past programmes. young people. At the end of the day, given that we have 1331 Back to Work Agenda11 MAY 2011 Back to Work Agenda 1332

[Chris Grayling] hon. Gentleman about the importance of local partnerships. I want local employer groups, papers and public sector inherited the biggest budget deficit in Britain’s peacetime organisations working together to encourage young history, we have to take some hard decisions and look people to take up apprenticeships and to encourage for value for money. The problem with the future jobs local employers to provide apprenticeships. He will fund was that it was a six-month work placement in the know that we are focused on ensuring that we provide public or voluntary sector with no clear pathway through work experience places for young people, but above all to a long-term career. We took the view that it was we are trying to ensure that decisions are taken locally. much better to invest our money in apprenticeships, In the context of what is being done in Rhyl, there is where the young person spends an extended period with nothing in the Work programme that prevents that a private sector employer gaining skills that will provide work from continuing. Excellence will flourish in the the foundations of a lifetime’s career and that will not Work programme. The whole system is designed to give simply lead to a shutter coming down at the end of six local communities, providers on the ground and local months. organisations the freedom to do what works for the individual, which is what is important. We are pretty early on in our apprenticeships programme, but we are already having considerable success in getting In conclusion, I regard unemployment, particularly employers to take up apprenticeships. I was delighted to youth unemployment, as among the most important of go to Newcastle earlier in the week and see the front this Government’s challenges. I am relishing the chance— page of The Journal announcing a great success for the paper’s campaign to encourage small employers to provide 10.12 pm apprenticeships for young people. That is the kind of House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order partnership that I really like. I absolutely agree with the No. 9(7)). 417WH 11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 418WH

in which, for example, a woman born on or before Westminster Hall 5 April 1953 will reach the state pension age at 62, but those born on 6 April 1953 will retire at 65. Many of the Wednesday 11 May 2011 women who have written to me consider that age discrimination, and they have a point. It is important to note that the proposal was [MR MIKE WEIR in the Chair] unexpected—it has been sprung on these women. It was in neither the Conservative nor the Liberal Democrat State Pension Age (Women) general election pledges and it was not in the coalition agreement. The women who will be affected by the Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Government’s U-turn will not have enough time to plan be now adjourned.—(Mr Vara.) for the further change in their circumstances. 9.30 am Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Like many other hon. Members, I have constituents who are affected by Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): It is a this issue. For example, my constituent Mrs Janet Davies privilege to have the debate under your chairmanship, of Tydfil road, Bedwas, has been to see me and expressed Mr Weir. I asked for the debate because, like many other very clearly the predicament that she faces. She was hon. Members, I have been contacted by many women born in February 1954 and, as my hon. Friend said, in my constituency who will be badly affected by the stands to lose £10,000. What advice would she give Government’s plans to accelerate the timetable for equalising Mrs Davies? How should she respond to the situation? the state pension age. That has come as quite a shock to many of them. They thought that they were nearing the Teresa Pearce: I thank my hon. Friend for his end of their time in the labour market and had been intervention. I totally agree. The unexpectedness of the looking forward to and planning for their retirement. extension of the time is the problem. I really do not The Pensions Bill is due to be introduced in the have an answer as to how my hon. Friend’s constituent House of Commons shortly, so I am grateful to have will manage that. I will put some questions to the the opportunity to talk about the proposal in advance Minister later. of its being spoken about in the Commons. I hope that The accelerated timetable will start in 2016, so the this debate will also help to raise awareness of the issue proposal will affect women who would have previously among hon. Members and possibly their wives, sisters reached the state pension age in about five years’ time. and mothers, and among other women who will be The worst affected will have to wait a further two years affected by the change but have not yet realised that. to reach their pension age, so they are seven years away All the main political parties accept that overall life from their pension date, which is well below the 15 years’ expectancy is increasing and that the state pension age preparation time recommended by the Turner commission. for women should rise and be in line with the age for It is important to remember that women are already men. I do not oppose the equalisation of the state at a significant disadvantage relative to men when it pension age, nor do many of the women for whom I am comes to pensions. The median pension saving of a speaking. In fact, they have already accepted an extension 56-year-old woman is just £9,100, almost six times of the date when they will receive their pension. The lower than that of a man, which stands at £52,800. issue is how the Government are going about accelerating Women’s pensions are traditionally lower because many that. Like many others, I think that the Government’s have taken time out of paid work to raise children or to accelerated timetable is unfair and will have wider care for parents. implications for our pensions system and for society as a whole. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): Like other hon. Members present, I been contacted It is worth taking a few moments to set out some of by many constituents on this issue, but I suspect that the background to the debate. Under the current timetable, many more do not realise what is to happen or are only women’s state pension age was scheduled to rise to 65 to gradually realising and will be contacting MPs more be equalised with that for men in 2020. It was then and more. Is it not the case that as well as the obvious to rise to 66 for both men and women by 2027, to 67 by effects on incomes, what stimulates their anger is that 2036 and to 68 by 2046. Under the Government’s new they feel cheated by what has happened? As my hon. plans, the state pension age for women will follow that Friend said, the proposal was not in the coalition parties’ schedule only up to 2016, when it will rise to 63. It will manifestos and it was not even in the coalition agreement, then rapidly accelerate to 65 by 2018 and to 66 by 2020. so there is no way the Government can claim that they The overall impact of the change means that 2.6 million did not know the financial figures and they have to women and 2.3 million men will have to wait longer make this cut. They knew what the financial figures than expected to qualify for their state pension. However, were when they did not include the proposal in the there is a small cohort of women who will be hardest hit coalition agreement, so this is a double betrayal of by the change simply because they were born at the many women pensioners. Does my hon. Friend agree wrong time. I have to declare an interest as one of the that as we are now seeing U-turns from the Government 500,000 British women born between 6 October 1953 daily, perhaps this issue should be the subject of today’s and 5 March 1955. They will have to work for another U-turn? one to two years before they reach the state pension age. The women who will have to wait two years stand to Teresa Pearce: I thank my hon. Friend for his lose £10,000 in pension income and up to £15,000 if intervention. I agree. As I said, it is the unexpectedness they would be in receipt of pension credit. Under the of the change that is the problem. The women affected Government’s plans, we will have a deeply unfair situation have worked all their lives and paid into the system, 419WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 420WH

[Teresa Pearce] Teresa Pearce: I certainly do and I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. It was not that long ago, and expecting something in return. They feel that they have it was certainly after the proposal was first made, that if done their bit, but they are not getting what they agreed someone went on to the website to look at their pension to in the first place. forecast, it was still set at the old rates. I think that that has been changed now, thank goodness. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- As I was saying, there has already been one movement op): Does my hon. Friend agree that the situation is forward so that people have to work longer. Now, there made more difficult because many of the women have is another one. People are understandably angry about been on low incomes and have not been able to make that and feel let down by the Government, because savings in other ways? Although they may have done there was a covenant between them and the Government: the right thing and planned, they are now hit by this “If you pay in, we’ll do this.” These people have done double whammy. their part, but the other part is not coming forward. Many people who are approaching state pension age Teresa Pearce: I agree. These women have been unable have already taken steps to reduce their hours of to plan for this change. Already, their pension age was employment or have taken on caring duties with elderly further away than that of the previous generation and parents. Where their children are getting married, they now it is being pushed further away again. It seems that have promised to look after their young grandchildren the nearer they get, the further away it goes. in the next few years, when their children return to the work force. One constituent, Susan Harris, from Belvedere, was a Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): teacher for 30 years. In 2005, she took early retirement My hon. Friend is being very tolerant of interventions. and a reduced pension. She told me she had made Is this situation not also symptomatic of the flaw in the calculations based on when she thought she would analysis of why the pension age should be extended? receive her state pension. She thought she was making For example, in the debate on Second Reading of the an informed decision—she was planning. Sadly, she is Finance (No. 3) Bill, one of our former Pensions Ministers now one of the unfortunate women facing a two-year made the point that if someone has been working from loss in pension income. It is not surprising that she feels the age of 16, regardless of gender, by the time that they the Government are being unjust and have broken their get to 60, they have paid 44 years of national insurance promise to her about when she would receive her pension. and have probably burned out. Extending the pension age for people who leave university at 25 after a postgraduate What assessment has the Minister’s Department made degree is not a problem; indeed, they probably have a of the proposal’s effect on the number of unpaid carers very good private pension. However, for many ordinary and child minders in the UK? The accelerated timetable working-class people—men and women—it means that means that many people who would have taken up they are being forced to work beyond the point at which caring for relatives or providing child care when they their health allows them to carry on working. This is retired so that the next generation could join the work not just a problem for women, although I do not force will not be able to do so, because they will be at diminish the problem for them at all. It also affects work for another two years. The Government must people who have had a long working life in what are consider that important social policy impact. probably the hardest jobs in society. I would also be interested to hear the Minister’s thoughts on what the proposals will mean for volunteering Teresa Pearce: I agree: this is not just an economic and the big society. People who have retired are not issue or a gender issue, but a class issue. inactive; they volunteer at local libraries, charity shops and lunch clubs. They also act as school governors and As I was saying, many women have done part-time provide much needed care in our communities. If they work or have taken time out of the work force altogether are kept in the labour market for longer, they are less to raise children. Many women worked in part-time able to volunteer in those ways. In pushing people to jobs at a time when part-time workers were unable to work until they are much older, we are in danger of take out a private pension. Those women have worked compromising activity outside the labour market, which for 40 years, paying their national insurance contributions. we value very much. They were looking forward to the retirement that they expected to start at 60. They, and I, were disappointed It may not be easy for the women affected by the when it was announced that the age of retirement proposal to get another job or to increase their hours to would go up from 60 to 65 between April 2010 and fill the two-year gap, especially at such short notice. I April 2020, but we accepted that and planned accordingly. am sure that I am not alone in receiving an increasing Now, these women find that just as they are nearing the number of letters from constituents in their 50s who are end of their time in the labour market, the goalposts willing to take any kind of work, but who are finding it have been moved yet again. impossible to get a job. It is not easy for people to return to the labour market once they have left, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to hang on to a job in Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Some later years, too. If women are expected to work longer, of the women in my constituency who have approached there needs to be work for them to do, and that is me about the issue have found out about the changes by particularly important given the current economic situation reading about them in the newspaper. There has not and the rise in unemployment. In looking for work, been adequate information. Does the hon. Lady share these women may well be competing against their own that concern? grandchildren in the labour market. 421WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 422WH

Many women will not have enough savings to fall will also affect many men of pensionable age because back on if they cannot hang on in the labour market. they cannot claim pension credit until their wife or Women who have been employed in low-pay work, or partner reaches pension age. The change will therefore who have taken time out to have children or to act as affect the whole household. carers, will have few savings to cover them for the period The Government need to think carefully about what between when they expected to retire and the proposed they are asking of a small group of women who have state pension date. Those women now face an uncertain worked hard all their lives. These women are being told future. Will the Minister outline the measures the to pay a disproportionate cost with little notice. They Government plan to introduce to help them work longer? have earned a decent retirement, but many fear they will Will he comment on how women who are not in work be too old and frail to enjoy it. A constituent from are meant to balance their finances in the two-year gap, Belvedere wrote to me recently to say: given that they will be eligible for jobseeker’s allowance “I have been working since I was 16, have paid all my contributions for only six months if they have savings and will not be and was looking forward to enjoying my retirement. But now it eligible at all if they have a small occupational pension? looks like I will be too old to do anything except watch telly if I want to focus for a moment on women who have they keep altering the age. I suppose the Government does not worked in low-pay or manual jobs, because class differentials care about the people who vote them in.” need to be taken into account, as my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Does my Connarty) said. The Minister has defended the accelerated hon. Friend agree that one of the wider consequences timetable on the basis of fairness and has said that a relates to trust in the pensions system? When daughters balance must be struck as life expectancy continues to see their mothers being somewhat misled, and when rise, because we cannot expect the workers and companies they see the Government change their plans in this way, of today to shoulder all the costs. However, while they lose faith in our pensions system, and we can ill overall life expectancy has increased by 5.5% for women afford that. and 6.5% for men, it has not increased uniformly, and there are still deep socioeconomic and regional differences Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab) rose— in average life expectancy. Office for National Statistics figures show that women’s life expectancy at the age of Teresa Pearce: I give way to my hon. Friend. 65 is highest in the royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea, where women can expect an additional 26 and Lilian Greenwood: I want to pick up the point raised a half years. However, in Greenwich and Bexley—the by my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison two London boroughs that cover part of my McGovern). A constituent in Woolerton told me that constituency—the figures are much lower, at 20 and she has always worked full time. She was raised on 21 years respectively. Women’s life expectancy at 65 is national assistance as the fifth child of a recently widowed even lower in Glasgow city, where women can expect mother. She lived by the rules as she knew them, she just an additional 17 and a half years. The 2010 Marmot saved and she made pension contributions. When she report into health inequalities found that people living heard the Minister on the radio, she rightly felt that she in the poorest areas live seven years less on average than did not want to be claiming benefits at the end of her those living in the richest areas. life; she wanted a pension that she had contributed to and earned. Is that not absolutely right? As my hon. Women in poorer areas, many of whom are from Friend said, many people will feel that it simply is not working class backgrounds and have been in low-income worth making contributions to a pension if it is going jobs, will be hardest hit by the accelerated timetable. to be pulled out from under them just when they need it. They are the least financially equipped to deal with the change, and their lower life expectancy means they will Teresa Pearce: I thank both my hon. Friends. That is get less time to enjoy their retirement. There is also the exactly the point I was coming to. Moving the goalposts issue of women manual workers, who will struggle to at the last minute has implications for public confidence continue to work if their jobs are physically demanding. in our pensions system, which has already taken a A constituent in Plumstead recently wrote to me, saying: knock as a result of the changes to public sector workers’ “It is particularly hard on me because I am a manual worker. pensions. The unfairness of the Government’s accelerated I have already been ‘pacing myself’ if you like, for my retirement. timetable could undermine some of the more positive I don’t think I will physically be able to continue fork lift driving changes in the Pensions Bill. Clauses 4 to 9 are about and hulking boxes around at the later age. If I’d known I would’ve automatically enrolling people in a workplace pension changed my job but it’s too late now. It’s not fair on me.” and creating the national employment savings trust. I was hoping that my right hon. Friend the Member That is a positive step, which will do much to boost for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) would be able to confidence in our pension system and address the low make the debate, because he has done some excellent take-up of pensions, particularly among low-income research on the impact that the accelerated timetable workers. will have on men and women of different social classes. However, the accelerated timetable will make it harder I hope the Minister is aware of that research and that for the Government to achieve that, because people will the Government will take it into account. note that Ministers are happy to change the pension Although the proposed accelerated timetable directly rules at the last minute. That will undermine confidence affects a comparatively small group of women, its impact in the pensions system, which already suffers from low will be felt more widely. Extended family members may confidence among members of the public. Like the have to contribute financially to help women cover the change to public sector pensions, the proposed change costs of the period between when they expected to get a undermines public trust. People are likely to think, “If pension and when they actually receive it. The change they move the goalposts again at the last minute, why 423WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 424WH

[Teresa Pearce] women come to their surgeries absolutely distressed because there is nothing that they can do about their bother? We may make our contributions now, but who’s pension. It has been said that it was all explained to say the money will be there at the end when we expect properly and it was a choice—people are told that it was it?” That is the opposite of the Government’s intentions an “informed choice”—but of course it was not, and on pension reform, but it is a distinct possibility. Will once someone is in that position, there is nothing that the Minister consider that point? I hope he will address can be done about it. That is how we treated women in it in his closing remarks. the 1960s. Are we doing any better today? The proposal has been developed too quickly. In the I am sure that other Members have met women who past, pensions Bills have been the product of detailed worked part-time in the public sector who had to have reviews that have taken an holistic approach to pension their rights recognised through the courts; even then, reform. Pensions policy needs to be planned stage by the publicity, the information and the time scale were stage and for the long term through reviews such as the not published in a way that was effective for everyone current workplace retirement income commission, which concerned. I agree with the hon. Member for Erith and is led by Lord McFall. I am concerned that the Thamesmead; as part of the reserve army of the work Government’s hasty inclusion of the current proposal force, women working part-time have been used, and it in the Pensions Bill will mean that key issues, such as has affected their pension rights very badly. socioeconomic and regional differences in life expectancy, are not given the proper consideration they are due. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I was In making any changes to legislation, the Government interested in the reference to public sector workers. should ensure that no group is disproportionately impacted Does the hon. Lady agree that there is no such thing as on, and none more so than the post-war generation of a gold-plated pension for public sector workers, and women, who have had to battle for rights all their that the issues that women face are all the greater lives—from the Equal Pay Act 1970 to the Sex because they do not really have a pension to look Discrimination Act 1975 and the Employment Protection forward to, even if they served 40 years in public Act 1975. Women born in the 1950s have seen so much service? change that they did not expect to be battling still—battling against a rapid acceleration of the pension age, which Annette Brooke: I made that particular point because falls purely on their shoulders. I ask the Government to those women could get justice and redress only through pause and look at the bigger picture before making the courts, which is important. these unpopular changes. A more recent instance of an injustice to women I hope to show today that the campaign against the occurred during the time of the previous Government. Government’s accelerated timetable has broad support. The reduction in the number of contributory years for a Earlier this year, I tabled early-day motion 1402 urging full pension, to 30 years, was very welcome—it clearly the Government to drop the timetable. It has already helped women and so has to be welcomed. When it been signed by 138 Members from all political parties. happened, only three in 10 women who reached state Charities such as Age UK and companies such as Saga pension age drew a full pension in their own right, so are also campaigning against the accelerated timetable, that change alone should have raised the proportion to and it is very rare for the Daily Mail to back something more than seven in 10—it was a good move. However, that I am saying, so we really do have broad support. again, there was an injustice to a group of women Some 10,000 people have signed the Unions Together whose birthday happened to be at the wrong time. “Hands Off Our Pensions!” petition, and I can see that many of them have contacted their local MP to ask Michael Connarty: I am perplexed. The hon. Lady them to attend the debate today, and I am grateful for said that she would cite an injustice and then cited a that. tremendous change by the last Labour Government to I hope that the Minister will consider carefully the give seven in 10 women pension rights after 30 years. As points I have raised and those that will be raised by a Liberal Member who is part of the betrayal now, can other Members, and, most importantly, listen to the she find any evidence that this Government will not voices of the women themselves. I strongly urge him to withdraw the 30-year rights because they are looking to drop the unfair plans to accelerate the equalisation of save money now? the state pension age—it is a shabby way to treat Britain’s grandmothers. People will embrace change, but only if Annette Brooke: I ask the hon. Gentleman to wait for it is implemented slowly and fairly. me to identify the injustice. My point was about the cliff edge; there could be two women living next door to one another with one day’s difference in their birthdays, and 9.50 am there would be a cliff edge. Changes need to be phased Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): in. In 2007, there was no phasing in, so some women I congratulate the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead missed out on as much as £28,000 over the course of (Teresa Pearce) on securing this debate. It is not only their retirement because of one day. Whenever there is a important, but potentially timely given that we all need sharp cut-off date, there is an injustice. to come together to address what I think is an injustice, and one that perpetuates injustice over time. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab) rose— I feel empowered to speak on this issue because, although I am well out of the age bracket affected by Annette Brooke: I want to make a fairly brief speech. this latest injustice, I automatically signed up for married We have a long history of injustice towards women women’s contributions. All Members here will have had and I am illustrating that with a few examples from the 425WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 426WH past. On many of those issues, the Minister has an Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) on securing this excellent record in fighting for the cause of women, debate and on her excellent introduction. I am pleased particularly the married women’s contribution and the that so many Members are here to participate; this is an cliff edge, so I feel that we could get a very sympathetic important subject, and many will be affected. hearing today. I start by saying how many of my constituents in As the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead Sunderland Central have contacted me about this issue. said, women born between 1953 and 1954 particularly Over the past couple of months, I have been overwhelmed will be hit very hard. Some 500,000 women will have by the number of people contacting me who are worried their state pension age delayed by more than a year, and anxious, and oppose the Government’s plans to 300,000 women will have it delayed by 18 months or speed up the equalisation of the state pension age. more and a small but badly hit group of 33,000 women Many have written giving their own stories of what they will have it delayed by exactly two years—just because are about to lose. they happen to be born in a particular month. That Average life expectancy in this country is increasing. picks up my point about the cliff edge of the previous That is a good thing, but it is why reforms to the current change, because there are parallels with this change. We pension system are necessary. No one disagrees with should not say that because it happened in the past, that. We live in an ageing society, and the pension age there will always be a one-day cliff edge. There are needs to rise to ensure that people’s retirements remain always opportunities to look at things again. financially secure and enjoyable. However, I cannot Fiona Mactaggart: I agree that there is an injustice support the changes that the Government propose, as for people born within a day of each other when there is speeding up the timetable for equalising the state pension a sudden change, but there is a difference between this age in that manner is unfair to my constituents. change and the one to which the hon. Lady refers. That change increased the number of women who had an Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Does my opportunity to get a full pension, but this change will hon. Friend agree that the golden principle running negatively affect some women. When people feel an through our legal system is that legislation should not injustice, the difference is this—if someone gets a good be made that results in offenders not knowing what thing, it is not completely fair, but if all of us get an sentence they are going to get? In a similar way, in civil appalling thing, it is certainly unfair. law those who enter into a contract, such as in employment, should know exactly what the terms and conditions are. Annette Brooke: I am sure that the hon. Lady appreciates Retrospectively to change those terms and conditions is that I am trying to show that there are a lot of instances manifestly legally and morally wrong. in which women have had a very unjust settlement, and this is yet another instance of that. We all have an opportunity to speak out against it now, when there is Julie Elliott: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. It is time to do so. that feeling of injustice—almost that people have been Obviously, the proposals to speed up the increase of conned; they thought that they were contributing to the pension age will deny large numbers of people the one thing, but were getting something else—that is so notice they need to plan effectively for a later retirement, stark in these proposals. and I am concerned that the poorest and the unemployed I shall give a few examples to explain the problems could face real hardship as they struggle to manage that the proposed changes will make to the lives of without the state pension and benefits on which they many women in my constituency—and, I am sure, were relying. As other Members have mentioned, this across the country. The first is of a woman who has particular change is not in the coalition agreement. I worked, planned and saved, but will still be caught out. shall give one example of the effects of the change on She has done everything that people are being told to one of my constituents: do. She has worked from the age of 16, with a couple of “My birth date is 10/11/1954. I reluctantly accepted the raise of intermissions to have children, although in those days my retirement age to 64 years and 7 months…Now I am shocked maternity provisions were not as good as they are now. to hear I will now have my pension at 66 years of age. I have had no opportunity to plan for this increased time scale, what do I This woman has three small private pensions from do?????” her various places of work; in some ways, she is in a That is the question: what do these women do? good position compared with many, although two of “I have no private pension and I am now being forced to work those pensions will be deferred until she is 60. A couple another 18 months after starting work at 15 years of age!!!!! I’ve of years ago, her parents became ill. She did all the already missed out on retiring at 60, like my mum. The older we calculations; she could release the private pension from get, the goal posts are continually being moved.” her current employment, and she had some savings, so For me, that says it all. she decided that she could manage with her deferred We know that this is not about a large number of pensions being paid at 60 and her state pension not people, so money could be found by the coalition being paid until she was 63. She did all that, and left Government. We need to know how much it would cost work a couple of years ago. to even out matters. This is an opportunity for the One could argue that my constituent has saved the coalition Government to say, “We really do care about state money by looking after her ailing parents. However, giving equal treatment to the citizens of this country.” she now finds that her state pension will be delayed. She has done everything right—she has worked, saved and 9.59 am contributed—but is being penalised, and will somehow Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure, have to find the shortfall. She is incredibly worried Mr Weir, to speak under your chairmanship this morning. about that. She has never been well paid, but has been I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for cautious in her financial planning. 427WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 428WH

[Julie Elliott] Retirement is an opportunity for those who have contributed all that they can to society to rest with Another constituent who contacted me is set to lose peace of mind, knowing that their contributions will be more than £7,500 of the state pension, something that recognised and that they will be adequately provided she has worked hard for over many years. She is now for. However, I worry about the long-term costs for required to work a further 74 weeks. She understandably these women. I suspect that there will significant hardship, feels let down by the Government. In her letter, she said with anxiety and stress about financial matters. I also that she has worked extremely hard all her life, yet her worry about the ill health that results from working to retirement age seems consistently to move further away. an older age. Frankly, the changes to her pension have left her feeling The Turner Commission recommended 15 years of robbed. She is not in good health, and wonders whether preparation before such changes are implemented. I she will be fit enough to work those extra years. She would be interested to know why the Minister disregarded may have to go on to benefit, something that she has that and opted for far fewer years. Current plans will never wanted. result in very different outcomes for women of similar The third of my constituents to write to me says that ages. I know that the line has to be drawn somewhere, she had planned to work until she was 60. She began but deciding a person’s pension eligibility by their birth saving, and started contributing towards her pension date suggests that the entire reform is being introduced when she was 18—38 years ago. She has worked hard too swiftly. The Government should stick to the original and contributed to society; she paid her taxes and her timetable, with equalisation at 65 in 2020 and not national insurance contributions. At the age of 56, she increasing the state pension age to 66 until after that. was looking forward to a relaxed and financially secure Once again, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member retirement. The Government’s plans mean that she will for Erith and Thamesmead on securing such an important now have to work until she is 66, six years longer than debate. I look forward to the Minister’s response. she expected. Her health is failing due to the stress of her job, and she is not financially prepared for the change. She wonders how she is meant to prepare for it 10.8 am at such short notice, and why the Government have let her down in this way. I am sure that she also wonders Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I congratulate why the Government are going back on their promise in the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa the coalition agreement. Pearce) on bringing this important matter before the House. A common theme runs through the letters that I have received from constituents. They do not disagree about I start by declaring an interest. As a man born in the state pension age rising; they recognise that increasing 1954, I will be affected by the increase in state pension life expectancy makes that logical. However, they say age. However, the extra time that men will have to work that moving the goalposts at such short notice is creating is slight, and the change is being brought in gradually. I serious financial harm and causing real worries. As a can therefore accept that change. The real problem result, some are considering working beyond their state created by the Government’s proposals is for women pension age. However, that should be a choice; it should born at about the same time as me. They will have to not be forced on them. Retirement, and especially the work considerably longer before they can collect their age at which people decide to retire, should be about pension, and they are being given short notice to prepare choice, but choice has been stripped from those affected for the extra work. by these changes. As others have said this morning, the Turner commission recommends 15 years preparation. The Government In my constituency of Sunderland Central, 1,100 have had to make many difficult decisions because of women aged between 56 and 57 are among the 33,000 the record-breaking deficit that they inherited from the women whose state pension will be delayed by two previous Government. The Government’s aim is to years. I wrote to the Minister, asking about his plans for eliminate the deficit by 2015, but this proposal will not the state pension age. In reply, he said: help them to achieve that goal, because it does not come “While overall there are some aspects of the change that will into effect until well after 2015. Therefore, they cannot affect women more strongly than men, we consider the effect is put forward the argument that the proposal will help to not disproportionate”. eliminate the deficit. I disagree with him. No man will have to wait longer The proposal will also not bring any long-term recurring than a year, but 500,000 women will. If that is not benefits to the public finances. Equalisation and the disproportionate, what is? increase in the pension age to 66 will take effect in the When it comes to the state pension, women are long term and this proposal will only bring a benefit already at a disadvantage. The median pension saving over a few short years. The proposal is not needed for of a 56-year-old woman is almost six times lower than the Government’s overall strategy. It is also not in the for a man of the same age. Women will have decided to coalition agreement, which said that equalisation should have children and work part-time to raise families. That not take place before 2020. is a valid decision and one for which they should not be punished—indeed, they should be praised. However, Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): under these proposals such women do not have enough Does the hon. Gentleman remember the Minister speaking time to adjust their financial plans for retirement. Many in the House last month? He said: have already decreased their hours in preparation for “If we want to encourage pension saving, the key is getting the retirement, and some will have done so because of ill state pension system right.”—[Official Report, 4 April 2011; health. Vol. 526, c. 795.] 429WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 430WH

There is an obvious anomaly here and this section of People who are approaching retirement say, “This is a getting the system right has not been achieved. Today’s bit like a horizon. You can always see it in the distance, debate gives the Minister an excellent opportunity to but you can never quite get to it.” As my hon. Friends rectify what is an obvious anomaly. the Members for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) and for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) have said, the goalposts Mr Reid: I obviously agree that we must get the just keep moving, and that does not seem fair, especially pension system right. The Minister has an excellent when people are trying to make the right decisions. track record in campaigning for justice for pensioners. They plan, contribute, bring up families and care for As the proposal is not in the coalition agreement and is relatives, yet they are being penalised. not needed to eliminate the deficit by 2015, I hope that the Minister will go away and reflect on the matter Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Does my hon. before the Pensions Bill comes to the House. Friend agree with my constituent who said that she felt discriminated against when she started work 30 years ago because she was barred from joining a personal 10.11 am pension scheme? She feels discriminated against now Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I congratulate because of her date of birth and the fact that her my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead pension will be delayed. (Teresa Pearce) on securing this debate. My constituents Rachel Reeves: I could not agree more. That is a big in Blaenau Gwent are worried about the Government’s issue and one that I will address later. For a number of plans. At a recent surgery in a supermarket, one constituent reasons, this group of women are particularly ill-equipped told me, “I am one of the people who are affected by the to deal with the changes that the Government are trying proposed change. Also, having recently lost my job, I to force upon them. am finding it difficult to get another job in the current climate.” I want to pick up on a couple of points raised by the hon. Members for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) and for In an e-mail, another constituent said: Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). The “I have worked all my life. I have never been a burden to this proposals go against the coalition agreement, which county and I have always paid my own way. I was widowed states: 14 years ago so I have no-one else to support me, therefore, I’m dependent on my pension. I work for the Local Authority, so am “The parties agree to…hold a review to set the date at which unlikely in the current economic climate to retain my job until the state pension age starts to rise to 66, although it will not be I’m 64.” sooner than 2016 for men and 2020 for women.” These women are fearful of what their future holds and These changes bring forward the equalisation of the angry that the goalposts have been moved. state pension age to 2018, which is not mentioned in the coalition agreement, and they raise the state pension The House of Commons Library estimated that about age for women to 66 in 2018—two years earlier than 800 women in my constituency will be affected by the promised in the agreement. proposals. Age Cymru said: Although there is increasing pressure on the Liberal “These proposals are unfairly discriminating against women of Democrats to stick with the coalition agreement, there this age group, as they are not providing them with an adequate is no obligation on the Minister to support this breach amount of time to plan for these changes.” or for coalition MPs to vote for it. No one in the I hope that the Minister listens to those important country voted for this at the general election a year ago, concerns today. and it is not what coalition MPs signed up to when they made their promises in the rose garden. We have heard a 10.13 am great deal from Liberal Democrat Members today. I hope that that means that people who are approaching Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I congratulate my retirement can feel that their MPs will not support these hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead proposals. (Teresa Pearce) on securing this debate on such an To reiterate points that have already been made, important and unjust matter and on her early-day motion 2.6 million women and 2.3 million men will have to wait 1402, which has secured 138 signatures from across all longer for their state pension than they previously had the main parties. been told. Some 500,000 women will have a delay of a I also congratulate Age UK on the campaign that it year before they get their pensions and about 300,000 has been running. Those of us who get the tube to work women will have a delay of 18 months or more. in the morning and come up the escalators and into Unfortunately, 33,000 women who were born between Portcullis house will have seen the posters that adorn early March and early April 1954 will have to wait the walls. They tell the stories of some of the women another two years before they receive their state pension. who will be affected by these changes. Some of those I have been lobbied by a huge number of women on stories have been related by hon. Members from all these issues, not least by my own mother who was born parties this morning. on 30 March 1954. She very much hopes that the My hon. Friend spoke about some of the organisations Minister will be listening to every word that I say today. that have provided support on this matter, such as Age There is fewer than five years’ notice before these UK, which I have already mentioned, and Saga. There changes take effect. The Turner report says that people have also been supportive articles in the Daily Mail and should be given at least 15 years’ notice, and the Pensions The Guardian. There is a broad coalition against the Policy Institute believes that these changes do not give proposal, and we hope that the Government will take enough notice. Women need longer to prepare for changes on board some of criticisms of the Pensions Bill, especially in the state pension age because they tend to become of clause 1 and the increase in the state pension age. part-time workers sooner than men of the same age. 431WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 432WH

[Rachel Reeves] have much lower private occupational pension savings and secondly because they are in not such a good As of April 2011, the basic state pension is worth position as men to increase their savings in the next £102.15 a week. Pension credit is worth £137.35 a week. five years. Those women who are seeing a delay in their state pension age of two years face a loss of pension income The Minister of State, Department for Work and of more than £10,000. For those in receipt of pension Pensions (Steve Webb): The hon. Lady quite properly credit, that loss is closer to £15,000. That does not take raises the issue of the big society by talking about into account the passported benefits that come along volunteering, caring and so on. Under our proposals, with a pension. the equalisation at the age of 66 will be in 2020. Under Longevity is increasing and Members from all parts Labour proposals, it would be in 2026. In 2026, every of the House welcome that, but we cannot move the single point that she has just made would also be true, goalposts every time an actuary changes his forecast. would it not? Six months before the election, the Minister himself said: Rachel Reeves: The point is that these women will “Pension policy needs to be stable and predictable years ahead, have time to prepare for changes if they happen in 2026. not made up on the back of a cigarette packet.” Changes in 2026 were legislated for in 2008, which meant that the people we are talking about today had I agree with the Minister. Although his words are still 18 years’ notice of any changes. That is very different on his website, he is now making policy up on the back from the changes that the Government are introducing of that cigarette packet and it is hitting women particularly because they will start in 2016, giving people just five hard. Indeed, the recently published Green Paper on the years’ notice. That is the point that Members are making flat rate pension consults on reasoned mechanisms for today. We are not saying that we do not think that there increasing the state pension age, which is a recognition should be any changes to the state pension age, because of the unfairness that is being imposed on women by with increasing longevity it is right that people should the Pensions Bill, which is just about to come to the work longer, but it is not right to move the goalposts House. That Green Paper does not include consultation and leave people so little time to prepare for changes. on arbitrary changes with five years’ notice. The reason that it does not consult on those types of changes is As I said earlier, the loss of pension income for because the Minister, his Department and the Government someone who has to wait two more years for their state know that they are unfair. So why is he forcing them pension is about £10,000, or it can be up to £15,000 if upon women who are 56 or 57 years old? they are on pension credit. It is not feasible that that group of people can make up that difference in a My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central five-year period, yet that is what the Minister is asking talked about the savings of women who are 56 or 57. them to do. There is something particularly perverse about targeting that specific group, because those women who are 56 or Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): In Newport, 57 now have average pension savings of £9,100, compared 1,500 women will be affected by this change. Some of to the average pension savings of men of the same age them have contacted me to say how betrayed they feel of £52,800. At retirement, pension savings of £9,100 about it. Presumably, however, hundreds of them are work out at £564 a year or £11 a week. The reasons for unaware that it will happen. Is it not true that many the difference in the average pension savings of men and women are not only not being given enough time to women are varied, but the key point is that these women prepare for the change but are unaware that it is coming I am talking about are not in a financial position to in a very short period of time? absorb the changes being proposed at such short notice. These women have earned far less during their lives Rachel Reeves: Yes. That is another point that my than men of the same age. In 1980, the gender pay gap hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead was 28.5%. When these women were in their 20s, they made earlier. Many of the women who will be affected were earning on average almost 30% less than men of by this change have written to us, but even more women the same age. The gender pay gap has been closing since have not done so. The reason they have not written to us 1980 and it is now about 16%, but the point is that these is not because they are happy and fine with these women have suffered inequality throughout their working changes. By and large, it is because they are not aware of lives. They now face a double whammy and are paying them. They are aware that they will have to work for the price for getting us there too quickly. longer than they had previously thought, because of the In addition, a lot of these women have worked part-time changes made in 1995 that will equalise the state pension at some point in their life, particularly when they were age for men and women by 2020, but they do not know bringing up children. In fact, many of them are also that those additional changes are coming down the line. working part-time now, to help to care for elderly So they are making changes now—as I said before, parents or grandchildren. As other Members have said many of them are moving to part-time work so that already, these women are the big society. They are doing they can care for elderly parents or young grandchildren— the caring work that we value as much as their work in unaware that these additional changes are coming down the workplace. Of course, many of them have also had the line. I think that people will be particularly worried interrupted careers and have not paid full national or scared about what the future holds for them. insurance contributions. The Minister’s own Department estimates that women are entitled to receive £30 less in Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I thank my hon. Friend their basic state pension than men. All those points for giving way. Does she agree that, if those women do show that these women are more reliant on the state not hear the Minister say that he is revising these pension than their male equivalents, first because they proposals because they represent an unintended anomaly, 433WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 434WH they can only conclude that they are being selected as work, private pensions were not readily available for ordinary the victims of an intentional injustice and that they are workers. We paid our contributions and assumed that we would to suffer a drive-by hit on their pension rights? draw a state pension and that it would be sufficient. Due to my circumstances, I know that full retirement is no longer an option. My plan was to greatly reduce my hours when I received my Rachel Reeves: Yes. The hon. Gentleman’s intervention pension and return to part-time work. Now I estimate that I also touches on a point that my hon. Friend the Member would need to save at least £12,000 just to be able to work for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) made earlier when part-time from the age of 64. Saving anything is impossible. I will she talked about the importance of people having trust not be able to continue working these demanding hours until the in the pensions system. Unless we trust the pensions age of 66 and I am deeply worried about my future.” system and can have some certainty about what the It is people such as Linda and Barbara who I think future holds for us, it is very difficult for people—both most of us went into politics to serve, yet the Minister, men and women—to prepare for the future. who in opposition campaigned so much for women, is now hitting them hard, as I said earlier. These are I want to quote something else that the Minister has stories, not numbers, and they hit home hard. It is said. In October 2009, he said: wrong to hurt a group of women disproportionately, by “The Tories still seem to think that as long as women have giving them such little notice of a change when they husbands they don’t need to worry about their pensions.” have such little chance of making up the difference in I wonder whether he has changed his views now that he income that they will lose. is in government with the Conservatives. As the hon. Labour accepts and celebrates increasing longevity Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole said earlier, and therefore we accept that there is a need to increase women have been consistently badly served by the pensions the state pension age, as we did when we implemented system, both occupational and state. In opposition, the the recommendations of the Turner report. However, Minister campaigned for women pensioners, but now making changes to pensions must be done in a fair way, that he is in government he is hurting them hard. I giving people enough time to prepare for them. wonder why he is doing that, when he is under no What Labour now proposes is no more changes obligation to do so. I repeat that these changes were not before 2020 and, if the Government accept the amendment in the coalition agreement, so he has no reason to to the Pensions Bill that they rejected in the House of support them. Lords, we will support the state pension age increasing Of course, the Minister has claimed that these women from 65 to 66 between 2020 and 2022. That would have jobseeker’s allowance to fall back on. But as hon. achieve a £20 billion reduction in expenditure, would Members have already said, that does not seem to be affect equal numbers of men and women and, crucially, the point. Talking about JSA is an insult to those who would affect 1.2 million fewer people than the Government’s have worked their entire lives, especially because JSA current plans. It would give people nine years—not just only provides about half the income that the pension five—to adjust to the changes, and no one would have credit provides and about two thirds of the income that to wait more than a year longer than expected to claim the basic state pension provides. These women do not their state pension, to which they had contributed want a handout. They legitimately want to receive the throughout their lives. pension that they have contributed to on the date that We will not let this matter go and nor, do not think, they were promised it. Again, that brings us back to the will the women affected. We must hold the coalition to issue of trust. It is so important that people have trust in account on its agreement. the pensions system. We have heard a lot of stories today about how these Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): Has my hon. Friend changes will affect great numbers of women, because been given any indication as to why this group of every one of those 500,000 women who will have to wait women has been so unfairly targeted? an additional year before they receive their state pension Rachel Reeves: We will hear from the Minister in a has a personal story. We have heard some of those moment, but we heard the arguments being rehearsed stories already. I want to tell Members two stories that I when the Pensions Bill was debated in the House of have heard that I think are particularly powerful. The Lords. We are told that we first need to reduce the first is from Barbara Bates, who says: budget deficit but, as other Members have said, these “From the age of 15, I have worked every day of my life, apart provisions will not change that deficit in this Parliament from a few years when I stayed at home to care for my disabled and if the Government’s plans to eliminate the structural husband until his death in 2003. Since 1995, I have thought that I deficit in this Parliament come true, I do not see why would retire in 2018, when I will be 64. I have based all my plans for the future on this. I now have to wait an extra two years to changes on this scale will be needed in the next Parliament. retire—in April 2020, when I will be 66. I feel robbed—robbed of The Government’s other claim is about longevity, but two years of freedom, and robbed of more than £10,000 that I longevity is not especially increasing for women aged 57, would have received as my state pension. The basic state pension so why are we particularly targeting women of that age? will be my only retirement income, and I have no extra means of If the Government wanted to look more broadly at coping financially. I will have no option but to try and carry on longevity and increases in the state pension age, they working. I have osteoarthritis in my thumbs and wrists now, which makes the lifting and cleaning work in my job harder: I’m would, I think, get cross-party support for that. It is not sure how I’ll manage to the age of 66.” particularly unfair and disproportionate to harm a group of women who have five years to prepare for the changes I will read out another story, from Linda Murray: and have so little chance of making up the difference in “I started working at 16 and have worked full-time ever since, lost income, which is what the women who have been apart from a brief period of part-time work when I was caring for writing to all of us are saying. my mother. I work in a very physically demanding job, at a dry cleaners, for 46 hours each week just to make ends meet. I have My final quote from the Minister is: never had the means to save for a private pension. When I started “a pension promise made should be a pension promise kept.” 435WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 436WH

[Rachel Reeves] retirement, but the schedule that we have inherited does not deliver on that. We need, therefore, to look at more He and his colleagues should heed that, and we are not rapid increases in the state pension age to 66, 67 and 68. alone in our thinking. Age UK, the unions, Saga, The It has been implied that what we are doing is somehow Guardian and the Daily Mail are all arguing for the extreme, but if we think back to 1990, for example—before Government to think again, and Age UK has organised the Pensions Act 1995, which increased the state pension a mass lobby of Parliament for a week today. age from 60 to 65—the typical woman retiring at the age of 60 would get a pension for 24 years. Even with Yasmin Qureshi: The change to the pension provision our plans, in 2020 the typical 66-year-old woman will was not in the coalition agreement and will do nothing get a pension for 24 years. That context is important, to reduce the deficit by 2015. It will, however, as my because the improvement in life expectancy to which we hon. Friend has said, hit 5 million hard-working people, are responding is astonishing. It is not just that we are 500,000 of whom are women who will suffer particularly all living a bit longer and life will carry on as before. harshly. Does she agree that this is another example of Life will not carry on as before, not for the Government, hard-hearted Tory policies hitting the ordinary working society, the health service or the pension system. We are person? moving into a totally different world, to which very gradual incremental change will not respond sufficiently. Rachel Reeves: I agree, but I would also go a bit The previous Government did not grasp that fact, and further: not only was the change not in the coalition simply pushed it off into the middle distance. agreement—reached just a year ago—but it contradicts it. The agreement states that the state pension age for Rachel Reeves: Is there any evidence that 56 and women will not start to rise to 66 before 2020, but under 57-year-old women’s longevity is going up particularly these proposals that rise will start in 2018. For that fast compared with everyone else’s? If not, why is the simple reason, coalition MPs from both the Liberal Minister disproportionately affecting that group of women? Democrat and the Conservative parties are under no obligation to support the changes. Steve Webb: We had to take a judgment about not The lobby of Parliament organised by Age UK for a affecting people who were within a few years of retirement, week today will give a voice to those who are adversely those who were 58, 59 or so and were set to get their and unfairly affected, and I hope that the Minister will pensions in their early 60s. We took the view that spare some time to meet some of the women who are hit change for them would be too soon, which is why by the changes and are coming down to Westminster to nothing at all changes before 2016. However, having oppose them. gone past that initial point, the crucial group—the The Bill has had its First Reading in the Commons one-month cohort, which a number of Members have and we are awaiting its Second Reading. I once again mentioned—will, assuming that the Bill gets Royal Assent urge the Minister to honour the coalition agreement to this summer, get six years and eight months’ notice of which he signed up, to admit that the impact of the the change. I accept that notice, which has been mentioned proposals is unacceptable, and to revise the timetable so by several Members, is the key issue. that no one has their pension delayed by more than a year and trust can be restored in the pension system, a Dr Whiteford: The issue is not only the pace of system which the Minister, in his heart, believes is so change. It is the context of a lifetime of low pay and important. inequality faced by many women, and the old-age problems that are a cumulative effect of that. The Government 10.34 am had an opportunity here to tackle women’s inequality in The Minister of State, Department for Work and old age, but so far they have, instead, arbitrarily targeted Pensions (Steve Webb): I congratulate the hon. Member women born in 1954. for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) on securing this debate, and I very much welcome the fact that so Steve Webb: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising many Members from both sides of the House have the position of women in the pension system. Assuming attended. I agree that the matters we are debating are that some of the pension reform proposals in the Green important, and the hon. Lady has made her points in a Paper that we published last month go ahead, for measured and thoughtful way. I will try to respond to example the single flat-rate decent state pension, the each of those points in turn, and also to some of the group of women most affected by this change would be other contributions that have been made. the first group of women to benefit, and potentially I shall start with what appears to be an element of very substantially. At the moment, women draw a state consensus, although the more one looks at it the less pension of £40 a week, on average, less than men, but of a consensus it seems. It has been welcomed that under the single-tier pension proposal, which I have people are living longer, and there is an acceptance that been very involved in introducing, many women would state pension ages need to rise, and as far as I can see be the main beneficiaries. that is about the limit of the consensus. The current Various Members have raised the important issue of schedule for raising the state pension age, which is to women whose pension rights have been hampered by 66 in the mid-2020s, 67 in the mid-2030s and 68 in the time spent bringing up children or caring for relatives, mid 2040s, is incredibly slow relative to the improvements and under the single-tier pension proposal a year spent in life expectancy that we are seeing. The Turner at home with children or a relative will be worth just as commission, which has been mentioned, said that one much to a state pension as a year spent running a FTSE could look at a principle for raising the state pension 100 company. So much do I take the view—in government age, for example fixing the proportion of life spent in as I did in opposition—that the work that men and 437WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 438WH women do, whether paid work or bringing up a family, Steve Webb: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for is of equal value, that for the first time we are proposing raising that point, and for his self-restraint in making a that that be manifest in the pension system, and that brief and thoughtful contribution in order to allow will be transformative, particularly for women. others to speak. He is right that we need to make people aware of the changes. Our dilemma is that none of this Fiona Mactaggart: Will the Minister agree to publish is law yet. We must tell people that it may happen, but figures? I am interested in what effect the single-tier we cannot say on Government websites, “These are the pension will have on women, and I am finding it difficult new rules,” because Parliament has not approved them to work out how many women will be affected by the yet. The current website describes the current legislative abolition of the state second pension and the cost of position, as we are required to do, and then it says, their different contributions. I am unaware of any figures “However, important changes are being discussed in working out how many women and men will be affected Parliament. Click here if you want to find out what is by the change respectively. I am not as sanguine as he is being proposed.”As soon as the changes go through—this that all women will benefit. There are many women summer, or whenever—we will, of course, publicise whose contributions to the state second pension are them. We routinely write to people before they reach important to their retirement. state pension age, and in a time of change we do it more. Steve Webb: On how the proposed single-tier pension I agree entirely that we need to communicate. One will work, it is a Green Paper with options, so the sort of frustration of mine is that I get letters saying, “You’ve detailed figures for which the hon. Lady asks will be put my pension age up by six years.” Anyone who is produced when we have identified which of the two going from 64 to 66 had their state pension age raised options we will go for and refined the proposition. That from 60 to 64 some 15 years ago, but they did not information will be made available when the proposition notice, because when they were 42 or so, they were not is refined further. interested in pensions. That is our challenge. People close to pension age are interested in pensions and To clarify, at the moment, many women in the age follow such matters; younger people turn off as soon as cohort that we have been discussing will have spent time they hear “pensions”. Communicating to people further at home with their children before the state second ahead is a challenge. pension was introduced. Whereas the state second pension offers protection for time at home with children, the state earnings-related pension scheme did not. That set Angela Smith: I thank the Minister for giving way of women is approaching pension age. People have again; he is being generous. Surely the fact is that if the accused me of moving the goalposts. I am indeed moving pension generally will improve, as he says, it will improve the goalposts for those women, but in their direction. for everybody. I was born in 1961—I am not afraid to They will draw a state pension—yes, later, but for an admit it—and my retirement age is still 66 under the average of more than 20 years. Compared with when we proposals, as it was before the election. I will benefit first started debating the changes in state pension age from the more generous pension that he plans to offer, last summer, that is a significant difference. but women born between 1953 and 1960 are still being singled out, in that they will have to wait longer than Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): If they planned before getting that more generous pension. the Minister is so confident that the changes that he is They will still lose out, and they are still being discriminated introducing will be so beneficial, have not the Government against. failed to communicate that fact? Throughout the election campaign, I met women on the doorstep who were Steve Webb: I suspect that the hon. Lady will not angry about what he describes as the changing of the benefit from our proposals, as I imagine that she would goalposts, because they felt that it was against their have received a full basic state pension anyway, whereas interests, not in favour of them. the proposals will help some women who would not have received it. By being employed here, she is also Steve Webb: I accept entirely that although what we contracted out of SERPS, resulting in a deduction from propose is a lot simpler in a sense than what came the £140. I do not actually think that she would benefit. before, that is not massively well understood because pensions are so complex. As we refine the proposition, I do not dispute for a second that that set of women we will have a lot of communicating to do. However, it will be affected by the changes, but the pension that stands to reason, for example, that paying a flat-rate they will get under our proposals will be significantly state pension rather than an earnings-related one will, better on average than that received, for example, by on average, benefit women. It must, because women women who retired a few years earlier. We can do all earn less on average. Crediting years at home with kids sorts of comparisons between this group and that group. towards the full pension, not just the basic pension, will Some things will be better for some and some will be and must benefit women on average. There can be no worse. What I am saying is that several hon. Members doubt that the options presented in the Green Paper have said, “Youused to campaign for women’s pensions, would substantially benefit women, on average, out of but you don’t care any more,” but I have spent all my the overall pensions budget. I look forward to the hon. time as a Minister working on proposals that will Lady’s help in communicating that to her constituents. benefit women pensioners specifically.

Nick Smith: Given that the Minister is confirming Alison McGovern: Will the Minister answer a specific that the Government are determined to ram through point? He made it clear that the reason why he felt the proposals, what important measures will he take to compelled to introduce further changes was that what raise awareness of the measures with that group of he inherited did not meet the terms of the Turner women so that they can plan for their retirement? review. The Turner review advised allowing people 15 years 439WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 440WH

[Alison McGovern] years later under her proposals. We need to make a distinction between things that will be inevitable as the to plan for changes, but women in our constituencies state pension age rises and the consequences of doing it have had much less time than that—barely five years—to more rapidly, which has been the focus of this debate. plan. That is not fair. Will he explain why his Government Members have asked about caring responsibilities. are doing that to women in our constituencies? We might not have expected this, but it is striking that the number of women within this age cohort who say Steve Webb: The things that Turner recommended that they have caring responsibilities is falling, partly are not consistent with each other. We cannot, for because of social and demographic change. In 1993, of example, have a consistent percentage of income during the women who are now in the 55 to 59-year-old age life in retirement and give 15 years’ notice at the same cohort, 15% had caring responsibilities, but, in 2010, time, because longevity is increasing much faster than the figure halved to 7.1%. Again, that suggests significant that. Something somewhere has to give. changes and that people are living longer and working One point that has been missing during this debate—the longer. I suspect that caring responsibilities are being only time that it was mentioned was when an hon. taken on, but that that is happening later in life than it Member quoted me from last week’s debate—is that if would have previously. we delay till 2020, as the hon. Member for Leeds West proposed, we will have to find £10 billion. My hon. Teresa Pearce: Does the Minister agree that it is Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) possible that the percentage of those with caring raised an important point, and he is analytically correct: responsibilities is falling because they already have to that does not help us in the comprehensive spending work longer to get their pension? It is not because their review period or help the long-term structural deficit, lifestyles have changed or because they are different because the age would have been 66 anyway. However, it types of people, whether older or younger. The fact is does do one thing: it takes £30 billion—or rather, £10 billion; that they cannot take on that responsibility, because the whole change amounts to £30 billion, but the difference they already have to work well into their 60s. between the two of us is £10 billion—off the national debt. As he knows, servicing the national debt is one of Steve Webb: That does not apply to the figures I the most crippling things that this Government must quoted, which relate to the difference between 1993 and do. That is why such difficult decisions must be made. 2010. All of the women in 1993 had a state pension age Our changes will take £30 billion off the national of 60, but all of the women whom I was talking about debt. I do not know what the interest rate on the are under 60—they are currently in their late 50s. A national debt is, but let us say 5% for the sake of round diminishing proportion of the women about whom we numbers. That is just to make the numbers add up; I do have been talking have caring responsibilities, although not suppose for a minute that it is 5%. That is £1.5 billion that may change. extra every year to spend on services or whatever rather The issue of moving the goalposts has been mentioned than on the national debt. I think that that would be the and I think that one Member said that we are happy to hon. Lady’s preferred solution. change the pension age at the last minute. We have set out in our Green Paper a consultation on how we Julie Elliott: In those calculations, has the Minister should do this beyond 66 in the longer term. In other taken into account the number of women who will end words, what is the right balance between notice, keeping up on benefits to cover the shortfall during the time up with longevity, and fairness for those who have to when they had planned for a pension, as in the examples pay national insurance for the increased longevity? There that I quoted? is a dilemma. Ideally, we would give people huge amounts of notice. Steve Webb: Yes, we have. All our costings make assumptions about the proportion of people who would Angela Smith: That is what we did. find themselves on benefits. Hon. Members have asked what people will live on between 64 and 66. Clearly, Steve Webb: That is not what the previous Government there will be a range of responses. Some people will go did. We would love to be able to say to people who are on working longer. Seven out of 10 people in the cohort 40 or 45 years old, “This will be your pension age.” that we are discussing—those born in 1953 and 1954—are However, if we said that to 45-year-olds, who have in work at the moment. another 20 years or more before they retire, and another Several people raised the important issue of different 20 to 25 years of life in retirement, we would be locking socio-economic groups. Across the socio-economic scale, in what we know about longevity now for pensions that life expectancies are rising. We cannot use the fact that we will still be paying in 50 years’ time. That is just not there are differences between different groups—as there viable. have been probably for ever, and certainly for the past century—as an argument for doing nothing. That argument Alison McGovern: Will the Minister give way? would apply under the proposals of the hon. Member for Leeds West. If we raised the age a year to 66 in 2020, Steve Webb: In a moment. The pace of improvement it would have exactly the same impact on the different in longevity is breathtaking. Between 2004 and 2008—the socio-economic groups. Her proposal would have exactly longevity projections of 2004 are, I think, what the the same impact on the numbers of carers and volunteers previous Government’s legislation was based on, and aged 64 to 66. Many of the points made by hon. those of 2008 are what we have now—life expectancy at Members in this debate about the impact on that age pension age increased by well over a year in just four group would apply exactly, only four years later, or six years. It is almost like a runaway train. We can always 441WH State Pension Age (Women)11 MAY 2011 State Pension Age (Women) 442WH say, “Let’s wait another decade,” but one of the problems that one in six of us alive today will live to be not 88, but is that there is a trade-off, because, as I have said, what 100, and that figure is increasing all the time. How do has been missing from this debate is the people who we strike a balance between that and giving people have to pay. notice? We could have a principle of always giving Delaying for 10 years, which is what I think the hon. people x years’ notice, which would mean that it would Member for Leeds West is suggesting, does not mean a not matter if longevity improved dramatically after that free lunch. It would mean a £10 billion national insurance point. That is part of what we are consulting on and hit on today’s workers and today’s firms. If she was there are trade-offs. I hope that the hon. Lady will wearing another hat, the hon. Lady would be saying, respond to that. “The recovery is fragile and we need to do more for jobs We are moving into a world in which pension ages and to boost the economy,” but what she is saying is will not be the rock-solid certainty that they have been that we should levy another £10 billion of national in the past, because they cannot be. The hon. Member insurance on today’s workers, including low-paid women for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), who has left who do not have much pension, and today’s firms, the Chamber, said that this is like someone starting a which may have to lay off people who will not then be job but having their contract changed halfway through. able to build up decent pensions. There will be no free On that basis, people start paying national insurance at lunch if we delay. 16, have a guaranteed pension age for the next 50-odd years, and have another 20-odd years after they start Rachel Reeves: Will the Minister give way? drawing a pension. Therefore, the second that they are in the system at 16, nothing can change until 70. That is Steve Webb: There is queue. I shall give way to the economic madness. There has to be some adjustment, hon. Member for Wirral South first. but I accept that it has to be done in a measured way, which is why we are consulting on an appropriate Alison McGovern: If, as figures last week suggested, mechanism. the Government fail to meet their own target to balance the books over the course of this Parliament and we still Rachel Reeves: I fear that, at this rate, the Minister have a deficit for which the Government have not will start sending pensioners back to work if they live planned in 2015-16, will we have more pensions Bills to too long. Returning to the review, would it not have push people’s pensions further back in order to incorporate been better to have done it and find out what the right what the Minister has said about being fair to those trade-off is before increasing the state pension age for who are paying now? 57-year-old women with such little notice? The Minister says that Labour is saying that we have Steve Webb: We have made it clear that the age-66 to find another £10 billion or £30 billion for these changes are in the present Pensions Bill, which will be changes. This is about cutting spending—the Government legislated for long before the end of this Parliament. We are cutting £30 billion of spending. I do not want are also consulting in the Green Paper on a systematic additional spending. First, Labour wants to halve the mechanism for going beyond 66 that takes account of budget deficit in this Parliament. Secondly, our proposals all the factors that we have talked about. That will try to would cut £20 billion-worth-of spending, so we are not strike a balance between notice, which is important, and asking for additional spending. I would like that put on fairness for those who bear the cost of increased longevity. the record. The intention—this is something that no previous Government have done—is for the further changes to Steve Webb: Unless there is some free money to be do it in a more systematic way. The 60 to 65 equalisation had somewhere, delaying for 10 years must cost somebody was a response to a legal case. The previous Government’s something. It is fantasy economics to think that we can plans for 66, 67 and 68 were not ad hoc exactly, but get 10 billion quid from somewhere. The hon. Lady there was no mechanism in place to respond to subsequent must agree that that £10 billion would have to be paid improvement in longevity. What we are trying to do as by today’s workers and today’s firms. It has to come part of our reforms, which we are consulting on at the from somewhere—perhaps the hon. Lady thinks that it moment, is give people the certainty that future could be magicked from the air—and there is a trade-off Governments will not just pass a law and change things, between today’s workers and today’s pensioners. but that there will be a structure in place and that they Time is short, so I will conclude my response to the will know how it is going to be. debate. I welcome and recognise the point that, ideally, we would give people more notice than we have. I fully Angela Smith: I was on the Committee for the Bill accept that. The difficulty is that delay, which is always that became the Pensions Act 2008, which, as the Minister the easy option, has a huge impact on the state of the has said, set out the changes recommended by the nation’s finances and on our response to a world in Turner report. He says that the approach that he wants which people are living substantially longer. Our goal is to introduce is systematic, but does it not mean a to strike a fair balance. I will certainly reflect further on constant shifting of the goalposts that will leave most the contributions of my hon. Friends and other Members. people, however much notice they are given, with a As has been said, throughout my career I have campaigned constantly changing picture of when they should expect for a fairer pensions system for women. I believe that to retire? some of the proposals that we are talking about for the next generation of retiring women will make a huge Steve Webb: I hope that the hon. Lady will respond to difference to their quality of life. Some of the points our consultation on the right process. She raises the that have been put on the record today have been made important issue of how we strike a balance. The fact is forcefully and effectively. 443WH 11 MAY 2011 Car Insurance Premiums 444WH

Car Insurance Premiums such as building, household, personal and holiday insurances. However, all those are optional, whereas 10.59 am motor insurance is, rightly, compulsory. I pick my words carefully when I say, to put it bluntly, Mr Roger Godsiff (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab): I that having read the report, looked into the issue and welcome the opportunity to initiate this short debate considered many representations I have had from under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. The cost of car constituents whose motor insurance premiums had gone insurance concerns everybody who owns and drives a through the roof, I think that the motor insurance car, not least my constituents who live in the B11 and industry is just milking the motorist. Instead of tailoring B12 postcodes of Birmingham. I will explain later why I insurance premiums to individual driving records and mention those specific postcodes. the personal circumstances of the motorist and the I am aware of the detailed report on car insurance vehicle they are using, the industry is taking the cheap produced by the Select Committee on Transport and of and easy option of postcode charging and having box- the recommendations that it has made to both the ticking premiums. It is giving scant regard to an individual’s Government and the insurance industry. I commend personal circumstances because it knows that to drive the Committee’s work and welcome its recommendations on the highway, someone has to have insurance. Motorists on personal injury claims and referral fees, uninsured are trapped and the industry can do what it wants. driving, fraud, and the whole question of young drivers, The motor insurance industry and its lobbyists, some whose driving habits are one of the industry’s biggest of whom may be here today, are very quick off the justifications for the overall increase in the cost of mark. My e-mail account was totally inundated and motor insurance. blocked by thousands of representations when those The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. concerned saw that this debate was taking place. I Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), made applaud their rapid-response approach to the matter. it perfectly clear when giving evidence to the Transport The Association of British Insurers has said to me: Committee that the responsibility for the level of premiums “the market remains competitive, despite recent rate increases, rests with the market and not the Government. I accept and some of the best deals may be found by phoning insurance that. However, in some other countries—and not least companies or brokers directly rather than by using price comparison in one of the Canadian provinces—motor insurance websites.” has been socialised or run by a Government agency I will give a couple of examples to show not only that because the market was unable to handle its responsibility, that is incorrect, but that the motor insurance industry despite having a captive audience of motorists who uses postcode premiums and gives minimal regard to were rightly obliged by law to insure their vehicles. I personal circumstances. shall not attempt to lead the Minister down that path because I suspect that he would not wish to follow, but A constituent who lives in Sparkhill, which is in the I make those points to place them on the record. Springfield ward—one of the wards we gained last After reading the Transport Committee’s admirable week at the local elections from the Liberal Democrats—has report, I was struck by the sheer weight of submissions been driving since 1987 and has a 10-year no-claims from insurers, solicitors, claim management firms and bonus. He has a public service vehicle licence and is a their associations—all of whom, purely by chance, are bus driver. His postcode is B11 and he was quoted part of the referral system. I got the distinct impression £1,200 a year for his motor insurance. That is for a PSV from reading the report that the motor insurance industry holder and bus driver, with 10 years’ no claims. He then was trying to convince the Committee—and, indeed, used the address of one of his relatives who lives in an perhaps itself—that it was not making any money out adjoining postcode. Apart from that, he supplied exactly of the motor insurance business and that it was taking the same details. How much was he quoted? Some £276, on the onerous burden of insuring motorists only out of which is four times less. He is being penalised because some sense of public duty. Indeed, the Committee was he lives in B11. As I said—10 years’ no claims, PSV told: holder, bus driver. However, he lives in the wrong place and is charged four times as much. “insurers currently spent around £1.20 for every £1 collected in premiums”. I am sure that the Government would say that those are Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Further to the the economics of the mad house and will lead to hon. Gentleman’s last remarks, in Northern Ireland we bankruptcy. However, the motor insurance industry has are subject to higher prices for insurance than in other apparently kept going purely to help out motorists. The parts of the United Kingdom—England, Wales and Committee was told: Scotland. In the whole of Northern Ireland, we pay “the underwriters of motor insurance had been loss-making higher prices than everyone else because of our postcode. since 1994”. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that better competitive I drive to and from my constituency, and I am sure that prices for insurance should be available across the whole motorists throughout the whole of the United Kingdom of the United Kingdom and that Northern Ireland would like to say a heartfelt thank you to the motor should not be excluded? insurance industry for being prepared to shoulder such losses for 16 years and for their altruistic attitude towards Mr Godsiff: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. the whole business. However, motor insurance is not being discriminatory; In case hon. Members think that I am seeking to it milks the motorist wherever they live in the United pillory the insurance industry, I should say that I am Kingdom. not. I recognise that the industry is an important part of Another constituent who lives in Sparkbrook, B12, the UK’s financial services sector and that, in general has had a driving licence for 38 years and no claims for terms, it provides competitive and tailored products, 10 years. His insurance has been between £250 and 445WH Car Insurance Premiums11 MAY 2011 Car Insurance Premiums 446WH

£300 for fully comprehensive and his best quote is now concern motorists in my constituency, his constituency £600. He then got quotes for exactly the same driving and throughout the country. I do not see why motorists history but with a Solihull and a Warwick and Leamington should be milked by the motor insurance industry. address, and they were less than £300. So he is being asked to pay double because he lives in the wrong 11.13 am postcode. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Those are just two examples, but I have many others (Norman Baker): The Minister who normally deals with about how my constituents are being penalised. The these matters, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, motor insurance industry takes the cheapest and easiest my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead option of using postcodes, rather than individual (Mike Penning), is, unfortunately, elsewhere today, so I circumstances, to set its premiums. It does so at a time am happy to stand in for him. I discussed the matter when there has already been a 29.9% rise in motor with him prior to the debate and I will ensure that the insurance for all motorists, and young men and women comments made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, have been subject to rises of 46.6% and 58.8% respectively. Hall Green (Mr Godsiff) are passed directly to him, so That is ridiculous. that he is aware of the specific points that have been Let me give you another example of how the motor raised today. My civil servants will confirm that I am insurance industry exploits its monopoly position. I not averse to disappearing off my brief to respond to know a person who spends part of his time in the UK, points in debates. I am happy do so today in response to and one or two months abroad every year. He checked the points that the hon. Gentleman has made, in so far recently with his insurance broker to find out whether as I am able to within the responsibilities of the Department he could save money by avoiding paying insurance for Transport. premiums for the months that he was out of the country, First, on the point that the hon. Gentleman made and his car was off the road and garaged. He was told about the nature of the motor insurance industry, motor by his broker: insurance is sold in a competitive market. There are “it used to be the case that the Insurance Industry would allow many players, many different companies, and motorists you to not pay premiums for months when your car was garaged are able to shop around and find the best deal that suits and you were abroad but they no longer allow this”. their needs. How premiums are set is a commercial decision for individual insurers according to the risks I contend that that is yet another example of how the that they believe are posed by the drivers concerned, motor insurance industry milks motorists, rather than including factors such as experience, age, the type of seeking to tailor its policies to their personal circumstances. vehicle and the driver’s record—for example, whether I am not suggesting for one minute—I would not dream he, or she, has penalty points or disqualifications. of it—that there is collusion between motor insurance companies, but the fact of the matter is that they openly The Department is not aware of any evidence that the say that they share information regarding fraud—quite market is not working. There are certainly a large rightly. But it is disingenuous to believe that they do not number of players who have, in theory at least, an share information concerning their charging policies opportunity to carve out a better position in the market and postcode premium policies. by offering different kinds of products to different kinds of drivers. If the hon. Gentleman believes that I end by saying this: I do not expect the Minister to there is evidence of collusion in the market, then he bring about a revolution in motor insurance overnight, needs to bring that to the attention of the Competition and I know that he will consider the recommendations Commission; it can investigate the market if it believes of the Select Committee very seriously.However, motorists, that there is prima facie evidence that collusion is taking like the wider population, are under increasing economic place. I should say that the Department is not aware of pressure and many people still have to rely on the use of any such evidence. their cars for their daily lives. Furthermore, if young people are priced out of using a car because of the On the issue of postcode charging, the hon. Gentleman massive cost of insurance, then, I regret to say, there gave one or two striking examples involving the B11 will be an increase in the number of uninsured drivers. postcode. I will ensure that my colleague the Under- That would not be a good thing, and I agree with the Secretary is aware of that issue and that he takes it Minister about that. forward in his discussions with the motor insurance industry. The motor insurance industry has to realise that it is My experience of this issue relates to the year 2000, in the privileged position of having a captive audience. when there were problems with flood insurance in my Instead of whingeing about not making money out of constituency of Lewes in the aftermath of flooding, car insurance—which is not true; everybody knows that and with how the insurance industry responded to that it is not true—it should be developing insurance policies challenge. It was certainly the case at the time that, in that reward careful drivers with a proven record of not my constituency, the insurance industry applied a broad- claiming, and take into account personal driving history. brush approach to insurance premiums, based on It should also scrap the unfair and discriminatory policy postcodes—in that case, the BN7 postcode. of penalising everybody in certain postcodes and allow motorists who use their cars only for a certain number The BN7 postcode encompassed houses that had of months a year to pay insurance for those months been flooded and houses, way up a hill, that obviously only, instead of being charged for the whole year. had not been and would never be flooded, even in the worst possible scenario. The houses up the hill were I know that the Minister has listened carefully to being invited to pay higher premiums because they were what I have said, and I hope that he will depart from his in the same postcode, so I entirely understand the hon. brief and address those two specific points. Those points Gentleman’s point. 447WH Car Insurance Premiums11 MAY 2011 Car Insurance Premiums 448WH

[Norman Baker] From that comparison, we are able to detect a greater number of uninsured vehicles, rather than relying solely In that case, the insurance industry has moved on, on the police spotting uninsured vehicles in use on the and one or two companies were able to offer different road. We anticipate that the scheme could reduce uninsured premiums on a more selective basis, based on their driving by 15% to 20%, by taking out the softer evaders detailed analysis of where was, and was not, flooded. and leaving the police to target on the road hard-core They were able to carve out a market from that, which offenders who continue to drive uninsured. Obviously, demonstrated that in that case the industry was working getting uninsured drivers off the road would be of and able to respond, through individual initiative by benefit not only to road safety generally, but to those individual companies, to the circumstances that pertained. who legitimately and properly pay their insurance and I would have thought that there was an opportunity for who quite rightly feel aggrieved about having to pay an insurance company to offer more reasonable premiums extra in their premiums to deal with the uninsured. I in B11 in order to undercut those who apply a crude think that that agenda is shared throughout the country— postcode approach. That is, however, a matter for the except by uninsured drivers. I hope that it is shared, so industry. that we can get some fairness into the premiums. The scheme is planned to commence in late June. Mr Godsiff: I hear what the Minister says, and I know Under it, keepers of vehicles that appear to be uninsured the logic of what he says. I assure him that my constituents will be sent reminder letters by the Motor Insurers’ are very price-conscious and, particularly in this day Bureau. If keepers take no action, they will receive a and age, very careful with their money. They have fixed penalty notice and a fine of £100, followed by searched every alternative. If they had found an alternative, enforcement action which, in extreme circumstances, then believe you me, not only would they have taken out might be wheel-clamping, impounding of the vehicle insurance with it, but they would have alerted all their and, ultimately, prosecution. The DVLA will be responsible friends to the benefits of going to another company. for enforcement action on behalf of the Secretary of The alternative is not there, despite what the motor State. insurance industry likes to make out. We are also concerned that significant rises in the Norman Baker: I hear the hon. Gentleman’s comments. cost of insurance might increase fraud, with some drivers Obviously, he has looked into the matter in his area prepared to make false statements about their driving much more than we will have done at the Department record to obtain cheaper insurance, such as on how for Transport. All I can do is repeat the comments that many penalty points they have, whether they have been I have made. First, if he believes that there is collusion disqualified and so on. The insurance industry estimates in the industry, he needs to draw that to the attention of that 40,000 claims are declined already each year at the the Competition Commission. Secondly, the Under- underwriting stage, on the grounds of non-disclosure or Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel misrepresentation, and that 200,000 claims are adjusted. Hempstead—the relevant Minister for this area—will, I Others might be tempted to declare younger drivers am sure, be interested in his comments and look at the as named secondary drivers on their parents’ insurance issue of postcode charging. We would like to ensure when, in fact, they are the main driver of a vehicle. We that the motorist gets a fair deal and is not subject to are working with the insurance industry with a view to improper procedures. We want, therefore, to ensure that allowing it access to the driver details held by the motor insurance costs are kept reasonable, as far as it is DVLA. That will to help to tackle fraud and prevent possible for us to influence them. situations in which drivers might give inaccurate We recognise that the high cost of motor insurance information, consequently invalidating their insurance. can cause a number of policy problems and we are The timetable for delivery is yet to be finalised with the working with the industry to help address them. People insurance industry, but we expect a project of such a are dependent on their cars to travel to work, leisure size to take between 18 and 24 months to complete all facilities and so on, so this is an important issue for a stages of the work, from specification and design to great number of people. My hon. Friend the Under- development, and through to a fully operational systems. Secretary is speaking with the insurance industry on a number of issues, particularly tackling uninsured driving, Jim Shannon: Up until now, in response to the hon. automatic access for insurers to check the driver’s record Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr Godsiff), the held by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, and Minister has indicated that everything is about catching addressing the problems of high premium costs faced those who are not paying insurance and so on. The by young drivers, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. Government response has indicated nothing about incentives for those who drive well. Not only in Northern One area of concern for us is that people may be Ireland, but all over the United Kingdom, people who tempted to drive uninsured. The insurance industry drive well and who have passed advanced driving courses estimates that uninsured driving costs each motorist should qualify for a reduction in their insurance risk. Is approximately £30 on their premiums each year. that something that the coalition Government are The Government introduced the continuous insurance considering? If so, what discussions have they had with enforcement scheme to deal with uninsured drivers. A the insurance companies? new offence has been introduced of keeping a vehicle without insurance unless it is kept off the road and a Norman Baker: Personally, I believe it is right for statutory off-road notice declaration has been made to drivers who drive well to be rewarded, and that occurs the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. The new in a sense with no claims bonus systems, which are well scheme regularly compares the DVLA vehicles database established in car insurance. Generally, submitting no with the motor insurance database, which holds all claims drives down the costs year on year for a driver motor insurance policies. relative to other drivers. 449WH Car Insurance Premiums11 MAY 2011 Car Insurance Premiums 450WH

Whether insurance companies ought to identify further specific restrictions have been proposed, including those opportunities to reward good drivers is a commercial in other countries where driving is permitted below the matter for them. For example, I know about some minimum age here. We are, however, reluctant to impose schemes that benefit older drivers with clean licences, or more regulations on young people, because doing so others for people driving an historic vehicle. Premiums would bear down on those who want to be safe and can reflect guarantees to drive less than a certain number responsible. It might reduce access to employment and of miles each year, or that drivers of an historic vehicle education, while enforcing regulations might involve probably want to take care of that vehicle, so they significant costs. There is also a risk of perverse would be less of a risk to the insurance industry than consequences; for example, limiting the carriage of young they might otherwise be. passengers might prevent a sober driver providing transport I come back to my central point, which I made at the for companions who have been consuming alcohol. beginning: the market is competitive, including a large The Department has been working on alternative number of insurance companies. If I were running an approaches, such as measures to improve driver training insurance company, I would want to look for the niche and testing, and is considering whether further measures market and the opportunity to identify a set of safe should be developed. Training should focus not only on drivers who are less likely to make a claim. We could the test, but on the challenge of independent driving, then offer that group a good premium, pulling one big including, for example, an understanding of the risks of market in and collecting together all the low-risk drivers, particular driving conditions, and of distraction and and so benefiting from paying out less. Insurance companies impairment. A range of measures have been taken in a commercial market have such opportunities, and already, including a voluntary foundation course in safe can identify them better than I can. Any business worth road use to help pre-drivers and learners, which is its salt would reward good drivers, because they are aimed primarily at 14 to 16-years-olds. We also intend better business for the insurance company than are bad to work with the insurance industry on whether new or drivers, for whom they are paying out. existing insurance products can be developed, with discounts One particular concern of the Government is the if young drivers choose enhanced training before and/or impact of high insurance costs on young drivers. I after the test, or are happy to accept in return restrictions accept that the higher premiums faced by younger such as not driving at night. drivers reflect the cost to insurers of covering the risk In addition, my Department is in regular contact for two main reasons. First, insurance companies’ figures with vehicle manufacturers and suppliers on developments suggest that as many as a fifth of newly qualified drivers in new vehicle technology, including driver information make a claim within six months of passing their test. systems and parental controls. Such technology might Many are relatively minor bumps and scrapes, but the demonstrate how young drivers are driving and could overall cost to an insurer of even modest damage is provide important information on behaviour and their likely to be higher than a young driver will have paid in insurance and casualty risks. The insurance industry is his or her annual premium. We recognise that the cost already making use of technologies and new products of damage claims affects all insured drivers, although when young drivers are willing to accept restrictions or groups that are over-represented in claims, such as training. The Government are keen to work with the young or newly qualified drivers, are likely to cost industry on such matters. insurers more. The number of personal injury claims has increased Secondly, insurers have to make special provision for at a time when the number of casualties has reduced, young people. A minority of accidents can unfortunately which we believe has had a consequent effect on costs lead to catastrophic claims, in particular when one or incurred by insurers. There have been concerns around more claimants might require long-term or even life-long high legal costs in civil litigation, in particular under no medical care. The problem with young drivers is not win, no fee conditional fee agreements. The Government simply that claims are more likely, but that such costs are committed to addressing such concerns and welcomed are liable to be much higher if the claimant is young. In Lord Justice Jackson’s final report on those matters, addition, only a limited number of big insurers can which made a broad range of significant recommendations afford provision against such claims, which in this area for reducing costs in the civil justice system. limits the market in which young people can buy insurance. The Ministry of Justice published “Proposals for The usual recommended option of shopping around for Reform of Civil Litigation Funding and Costs in England the best price, therefore, is less effective for young and Wales—Implementation of Lord Justice Jackson’s drivers than for older drivers. If the hon. Member for Recommendations” on 15 November 2010. The Birmingham, Hall Green has researched that aspect, we Department announced on 29 March 2011 that it will would be interested in hearing about his specific examples abolish the general recoverability of the CFA success of how young drivers in his constituency are affected in fee from the losing side; abolish the general recoverability insurance terms. of after-the-event insurance premiums; and introduce One effect is that young drivers, including learner the package of associated measures set out by Lord drivers, often find that rises in insurance costs are Justice Jackson. Through the Legal Services Board, we increasingly prohibitive. Many young people depend on are also considering the issue of referral fees. a motor vehicle to obtain better access to education and Finally, we should recognise that the most effective employment, and they often learn to drive for such way of controlling costs is to reduce the number of road reasons. We do not want to deprive people of that accidents and casualties. The Government are strongly opportunity. committed to improving road safety and we are setting Some insurers have argued for the Government to out our plans in a strategic framework published today. impose additional regulation on newly qualified drivers so that they would not be allowed to drive in high-risk 11.30 am circumstances, which might improve road safety. Other Sitting suspended. 451WH 11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 452WH

Legal Aid It is easy to forget the recent history of legal aid, and it is important to look at the context behind the debate this afternoon and remind ourselves that legal aid underwent 2.30 pm substantial changes under the previous Government— Labour launched about 30 consultations and reviews to Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I hope that try to sort the system out. Since the formation of the this debate on legal aid—a vitally important component coalition, we have had Sir Ian Magee’s “Review of legal of our legal system—will prove timely. It is opportune aid delivery and governance”, and the family justice because although the Government consultation, which review chaired by David Norgrove, both of which are has received around 5,000 replies, has closed, the pertinent to the debate. I am glad that the Government Government have not yet published their response. I delayed their response to the consultation on legal aid hope, therefore, that the Government will have the until after the interim report of the Norgrove review chance to listen to concerns from both sides of the was published. It is always useful to get expert advice House before publishing their final recommendations. before making decisions. I am delighted to welcome the Minister to respond to the debate, and more particularly to listen to it. He and Hon. Members should be in no doubt that I appreciate I spent some time debating in 2005, and although I did much of what the Ministry of Justice has done since the not always agree with his position, he showed that he formation of the coalition. In general, I admire the would listen to an argument and I hope he will show the liberal proposals on sentencing that have stemmed from same character today. the Secretary of State and his team of Ministers—they may not thank me for that praise of their liberalism. It One of the basic pillars of our legal system is supposed has been particularly good to see a renewed emphasis to be that the law is accessible to all, not only to those on evidence and reinvestment in justice, moving us away who can afford it. Members of another Committee are from an obsession with prisons and punishment, and seeking to reform the law of libel to ensure that success renewing our desire to see criminals rehabilitated. We goes to those who have truth on their side, rather than want less crime, not just to be harsh on criminals after to those with the most money. Legal aid is the manner the event. in which we ensure that all have a fair chance to access the law and see justice done. There are, however, problems with the Government’s The Government have been at pains to emphasise proposals, many of which will be familiar to hon. their commitment to access to justice. We would all, I Members following this debate. If they have not already hope, agree with their stated position that done so, hon. Members might want to familiarise themselves “access to justice is the hallmark of a civil society.” with the excellent report from the Justice Committee— chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick- Indeed, many of us would go slightly further and say upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith)—the large majority of that it is the hallmark of a civilised society. The Green which I agree with. I want to focus on the effects of the Paper that announced the proposals suggested that the proposals concerning access to advice on social welfare Ministry of Justice believes that legal aid has expanded law, in particular with regard to immigration law, family far beyond its original intentions. I recognise that there law and children and young people. I will also highlight is often waste, and that unnecessary costs could be what I believe are the unintended consequences of the eliminated or reduced, but we should avoid simply Government’s proposals for citizens advice bureaux caricaturing the current legal aid system. and other organisations. In my opinion, as it currently stands the legal aid system seems broadly to represent what Lord Rushcliffe It is worth questioning the central decision at the intended in his 1945 report. He argued that public heart of the Government’s proposals. From the off they funding for legal aid should not be limited to those considered it impossible to pare down any further “normally classed as poor”, but should also include expenditure on criminal legal aid. Like many others, I those of “small or moderate means.” According to the remain unconvinced that we should leave criminal legal Ministry of Justice, under the current legal aid system aid entirely untouched when it accounts for more than 29% of us are eligible for publicly funded advice. One half the total budget, even if it has previously come in could ask whether that goes far enough. Given our for close attention. Obviously, we do not want to deny unequal income distribution, even the median wage people access to justice in criminal trials, but I believe could well be described as “small or moderate means” there may be further scope for savings in that area. I in some parts of the country. hope the Minister will heed that note of slight uncertainty and address it when he responds to the debate. I accept that the wider fiscal situation and the rapidly growing nature of the legal aid budget allow room for In other areas, my uncertainty is more than slight. consolidation through reductions in the budget, and One such area is family law, and I have received many there is a balance to strike between access and cost. This representations from organisations and individuals across debate is largely an opportunity to discuss how such the spectrum, from those who need legal aid to those reductions can be achieved without harming the most who provide it and almost everyone in between. I cannot vulnerable people in our society. A large portion of my over-emphasise the concerns that people have about the speech will deal with the scope of the Government’s possible effects of the Government proposals. Time proposals, but I also hope to draw the Minister’s attention and time again I have heard the same criticism: the to the viable alternatives that have been proposed. Given Government have brought forward proposals without the number of hon. Members from all parties present in properly researching the effects of the current system, the debate, I will try to be brief to allow others to speak. and without adequately justifying their stance. As a I am sure that one could easily fill 90 minutes with more result, the unintended consequences of the proposals, if detailed analyses of every issue that I cover. implemented, could be regressive and widespread. 453WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 454WH

Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): can play a very important role in guiding their clients My hon. Friend makes a strong case. Does he agree that towards agreed resolutions or advising them that their there is a danger that people in a host of vulnerable case is too weak to fight. Without professional guidance, groups, including those with mental health problems, badly founded and prepared litigation conducted by the those suffering domestic abuse—as opposed to domestic client in person will surely follow and grow. That will violence—those with learning disabilities, and others, mean an inevitable and probably substantial rise in the could be disadvantaged in front of the law? Would it number of litigants in person in the family courts and not be better to raise the bar for legal aid, and look at the associated costs. I have seen no evidence for the the situation case by case? Government’s assumption that there will be no significant impact on court operating costs. I strongly suspect that Dr Huppert: My hon. Friend raises a number of what is saved in legal aid may simply be spent in court issues, some of which I will come on to talk about. costs. There is no doubt that this issue is a challenge, and The result will be that, as ever, those with money will there is no easy solution with which to protect all those have access to justice. Those who do not have the cash vulnerable groups. Ideas such as that mentioned by my and who also lack the energy and resources to litigate hon. Friend, or those suggested by the Law Society, by themselves will simply not have access to justice. may provide a better option. Those who have not been able to enforce the other party’s private law responsibilities will have to fall back Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): My hon. Friend makes on the state for housing and other support—another an excellent case and I congratulate him on that. Does cost to the Exchequer. he agree that rather than being largely budget driven, Therefore, the removal of public funding from the the review should begin with an understanding that areas of family law that we are discussing may have the legal justice is inextricably linked to social justice? opposite effect on the finances to that which is intended. Homelessness, for example, will be narrowly defined by On a related note, it may also hamper successful mediation. these changes at a time when the Government’s policies Studies have shown that one of the main reasons why on homelessness, housing benefit and other areas are mediation has been successful has been the threat of already having a disruptive impact in that area. We need litigation. That encourages people to adopt sensible a legal aid system that is flexible enough to assist those positions and so to settle. Will that still work in the who will find themselves on the margins of society. absence of litigation as a plausible threat?

Dr Huppert: I thank my hon. Friend for his valuable Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): contribution to the debate. He is right: social justice lies I declare an interest in the debate, having been a legal at the heart of much of what is happening. The lack of aid family lawyer. I want to pick up the point about social justice in this country, and the widening disparity mediation. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that mediation between the rich and poor, already existed under the can be quite useful, but it is no panacea and frequently previous Government. That disparity is a sorry blight fails when there is an imbalance of power, which is for us all and affects much of public policy. We know often the case in family matters? I am concerned that that one of the worst problems is the effect that social the Government’s proposals rely on mediation. I am injustice and deprivation have on health. That is a much concerned also about where all the mediators will come more fundamental problem to be solved than exactly from and who will pay for them. what happens in an A and E hospital, and the same goes for the examples provided by my hon. Friend. Dr Huppert: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments Family law particularly concerns me. I am indebted and bow to her greater expertise in this area. She is to a number of people for drawing my attention to the absolutely right. There is no doubt that mediation is issue, and I would particularly like to thank Jo Miles, a fantastic, but it does not solve every problem. It is a Fellow in Law at Trinity college Cambridge, where I great thing where it works. Where it does not work, used to be a Fellow. She has made great efforts to there must be alternatives. She also raises the important produce evidence-based assessments of the proposals in point about the number of mediators. We are trying to the Green Paper, and she has also been in touch with turn to more and more mediation and arbitration in Ministers. relation to a range of areas of law, and there is a real The Green Paper’s reforms for family law constitute a question about how we can train enough people. radical reduction in the number of private family law I hope that the Government will revisit their proposals issues for which legal aid will be available. That policy is on reducing the scope of family law. We share the based on two premises. To say those are outright false is objective of controlling costs while preserving access to perhaps going too far, but they are questionable and not justice. I hope that the Government will be able to reach well justified. The premises are first that spending on a better balance than they did in their original proposals. legal aid fuels litigation, and secondly that mediation is Let me now turn to another element of family law, the clear alternative. which has had almost as much attention from the same In some cases, there is no doubt that lawyers on each organisations—domestic violence, which my hon. Friend side—I declare an interest as a non-lawyer—ramp up the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette the case to earn fees, and make a tense situation worse Brooke) mentioned. That is a blight that is far more for the individuals as well as expensive for the state and common in our country than many of us would like to of course for the side that does not have legal aid. believe. It is a very private crime and therefore difficult However, it is not clear that that is common or regular. to measure, but estimates based on available data, such In fact, it is probably because clients can currently see a as the British crime survey, suggest that as many as one solicitor that litigation is avoided in many cases. Solicitors in five adults have experienced it in some form. 455WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 456WH

[Dr Huppert] Similar concerns apply in relation to disabled people, whether young or old. For example, the Government The Green Paper takes a narrow view of what domestic plan to remove legal aid relating to matters of special violence constitutes and how it can be evidenced. The educational need. The Government sought to justify Government seem to be counting only physical violence that proposal in the Green Paper because there are under the definition of domestic violence and then only alternative sources of support, they do not consider where relevant legal proceedings have been started or parents and carers bringing SEN appeals to be particularly orders obtained in relation to it. There are a couple of vulnerable and they believe that the education of children concerns about the consequences of that. First, it provides should not be accorded the same level of priority as a perverse incentive for people to allege domestic violence other, more critical issues. The last point is the most just to gain access to funding for their other issues. In concerning. The coalition Government have taken some other words, it will encourage court proceedings. It is good steps to support families with disabled children—for not clear whether that would involve people admitting example, the SEN Green Paper from the Minister of what is actually happening or would lead to false allegations, State, Department for Education, my hon. Friend the but either way, it will increase court proceedings. Secondly, Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), is a great a huge amount of research shows that many victims of step forwards. However, the change that we are discussing domestic violence do not disclose their abuse at all. For in this debate would send entirely the wrong message to all sorts of reasons, they are reluctant to take legal those families. Access to education is a right for all proceedings in relation to the abuse. We should not children and is a vital mechanism for removing some of make that harder. the barriers facing disabled children and young people. All that would be bad enough. I hope that I need not convince anyone here that domestic violence cannot Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): On the refer simply to physical violence. We must all be concerned point about special educational needs, does my hon. about people suffering the threat of violence and mental Friend further welcome the proposals in the Green torment. I hope that the Government will take seriously Paper to move to a system of mediation to resolve many the criticisms that they have received on that point and of the problems that parents and children have in will clarify and strengthen their definition of domestic challenging decisions made by local authorities? Should violence so that those at risk have access to justice and not that system of mediation be put in train with any are protected. changes to legal aid so that we do not end up with the good intentions of the Green Paper being frustrated by There is a particular issue about those people—normally a lack of co-ordination between two Departments? women—who are in the UK on a spousal visa with no access to public funds and are subjected to domestic Dr Huppert: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his violence. I have met such people in the Cambridge comments. Yes, mediation can play a good role. There women’s refuge. I am delighted that the Government are a number of cases in which we need to move away are taking some steps to support them—for example, by from the legalistic approach to resolving problems and extending the funding for the Sojourner project, which I towards mediatory approaches. However, as I said in hope will continue even longer. Everyone will work response to the point raised by the hon. Member for together to help such people. There will be legal aid Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), mediation funding for them to obtain an injunction against their does not always work, and where will we get all the ex-partner, and the UK Border Agency will fast-track mediators from? We must ensure that there is a fall-back—a their visa application—but there will be no support for safety net—for people. them to apply for the visa that unlocks their future I cannot deal with all the issues relating to this area support. Surely that is not right. now. I assume that the Government have seen the Women will be disproportionately affected by the briefings from the Children’s Society and the Special changes in legal aid. They are more often the recipients Educational Consortium and I hope that they will of it and less often have their own finances in place. consider what they say. I am sure that other hon. Children and young people will also be disproportionately Members have seen them as well. affected, partly because women make up the majority of primary care givers, although of course not all. I Andrew George: My hon. Friend is being very patient have received a considerable amount of evidence from a in allowing me to intervene again. The theme underlying number of organisations suggesting that the proposals this is public service and its improvement. There is an could deny many thousands of children and young important link, which must not be lost by the Government. people access to justice. The Liberal Democrat youth They must ensure that those people seeking to benefit policy includes a commitment to providing young people from public services see an improvement in them. We with access to specialist support and advice on their have found this in the Select Committee on Health, legal rights and responsibilities—something that I hope which has been considering clinical negligence. The would attract universal support. I therefore urge the removal of legal aid is proposed in that area. How can a Government to think again more carefully about their service move on, learn lessons and improve if those who proposals for young people. They are clearly a group of are served poorly by it do not have access to the right people who are generally vulnerable and less able to kind of justice? represent themselves. It seems to me, then, that the current scope of legal aid should remain available to Dr Huppert: My hon. Friend makes an excellent children and young people even if it must be reduced point. I hope to talk later about the effect of the somewhat for adults. In addition, we should try to Jackson changes, how legal aid will work then and the target funding and support better towards that demographic double whammy that people may face with the two group in the future. changes being rolled up together. 457WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 458WH

Lastly on the subject of special educational needs, I need decent, good quality lawyers, not the rather shabby am sure that other hon. Members have had constituents and disreputable people whom we sometimes see in coming to see them, as I have. My constituents take their place. special educational needs appeals for their children very The main point that I want to make is about the seriously. They are very concerned. A number of people approach taken by the UK Border Agency. Its attitude have come to see me. They are terrified both about what is a well-known sticking point. It rarely allows scope for will happen to their own children and about the future. negotiation or mediation. It seems to take the view that They see education as critical to their children’s future. I it will stick to its decision until a court tells it otherwise could talk about other aspects, but time moves on almost regardless of the evidence. In so many cases, apace. applications for the right to work were ignored until the Hon. Members may be aware that I have a passionate agency was ordered to deal with them by higher courts. interest in matters to do with immigration and asylum. Many applications for refugee reunion that are refused I chair the all-party group on refugees, as well as being a are then overturned on appeal, and it seems that the member of the Home Affairs Committee, which is appeal system is being used by the agency as a safety chaired by the right hon. Member for Leicester East net. Under the Government’s proposals, those cases (Keith Vaz), and it is a great pleasure to see him here would no longer be in scope for legal aid, and there will today. I am of course pleased that asylum will remain be no opportunity to fix the agency’s errors. I urge the within the scope of legal aid, but it is extremely concerning Government to listen to practitioners and the representatives that other immigration cases have been excluded. Even of asylum seekers and refugees. The Government should under existing arrangements, immigration legal aid providers ensure that asylum support remains in scope as a high are struggling to remain viable; if we confine legal aid priority. They should also ensure that applications for to asylum, it is doubtful whether good quality practitioners family reunion are treated as extensions to a claim for will continue to be available. There is already a surfeit of asylum and thus be within scope for legal aid purposes. poor quality lawyers and advisers working in this field, and we would all benefit from better provision because There are certainly cases in which applicants with a many of them are not up to scratch. poor case abuse the system, looking for appeal after appeal in a fruitless quest for victory. However, those with a strong case are also forced to jump repeated Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I congratulate hurdles to get justice. The key solution is for the agency the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Is he aware to get more decisions right first time, as was accepted by that many of the legal aid practitioners that used to deal the Minister for Immigration, the hon. Member for largely with immigration matters in inner London have Ashford (Damian Green) when I raised the matter in gone under? I frequently represent people at immigration the Chamber. appeal tribunal hearings, and I know that a disturbing number of claimants with strong cases are completely I could say more about that, but I want to give a brief unrepresented, and that all kinds of family breakdowns example of the impact that the Government’s proposals and misery result. It is not necessary to invest a great may have on service providers, and I shall then allow deal of money in order for the most vulnerable to get others to speak. I have spoken to service providers reasonable access to justice. about the possible impact of the proposals on various vulnerable groups. I have received comments from a Dr Huppert: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his range of organisations and individuals that provide comments. He is right. I am not an expert on the support. I wish that I could have talked to all of them, position in London, but I know the Cambridge area but I shall focus on the role of Citizens Advice, as I and I realise that there is a shortage of good people. I suspect that all Members will appreciate the vital role see that with my constituents time and time again. that it plays in our constituencies, not least in preventing the flood of case work that we all receive from becoming even more torrential. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I pay tribute to Citizens Advice has produced detailed briefings showing him for the work that he does as chair of the all-party the unintended consequences of the Government’s group on refugees and as a member of the Select proposals on social welfare law work. Its cost-benefit Committee. analysis makes a strong case for retaining and even strengthening its role. For instance, its research found Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the that for every £1 of legal aid spent on housing advice, Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), if that the state potentially saves £2.34; on debt advice, the specialism disappears—and immigration cases are dealt state saves £2.98; on benefits, it saves £8.80; and on with by specialist legal aid lawyers—vulnerable constituents employment advice, it saves £7.13. With impressive may go to unscrupulous immigration advisers, be charged understatement, Citizens Advice suggests that the Ministry huge sums, and, at the end of the day, be left with no of Justice recourse except to go to Members of Parliament, who are not really qualified to give them that advice. “gets a good return from expenditure on legal help in these areas.” Dr Huppert: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his It estimates that if funding were no longer available for comments. I am astonished at how many constituents I these categories of law, at least £172 million of additional see who have been poorly advised. The most extreme costs would accrue for both state and society. example was a lady who applied for asylum through a What effect would the proposals have on the Citizens lawyer and got leave to remain, but when she went to Advice service more widely? More than half of the renew her passport she discovered that the whole thing bureaux surveyed in December last year said that the was a forgery. We are still trying to resolve that case. We changes to legal aid scope and the reduction in fees 459WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 460WH

[Dr Huppert] to be able to protect the vulnerable about whom I have said so much. The Government are duty bound to look would pose a real risk to the continuation of their local seriously at those proposals and, if they are workable, advice service as a whole. Again, I do not need to to adopt them. If the Government are serious about remind Members of the havoc that that would wreak in access to justice, they must listen to those who know our communities, or of the large amount of extra work what is necessary to provide it. that would almost certainly come our way as a result. In I look forward to hearing what other hon. Members passing, I praise the excellent work done by Rachel have to say, and to the Minister’s response. I hope that Talbot and the staff of the Cambridge citizens advice he will signal a willingness to modify the proposals in bureau, who are always there to help me and my the light of the concern that have been raised. constituents. I also praise Cambridge city council, which last year provided it with a 25% increase in grant. I wish Several hon. Members rose— that all councils did that, rather than pulling resources from such a vital public service. Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. Five Members Time is running short, but I wish to raise two brief wish to speak, and we have about 40 minutes before the points. The first, raised earlier by my hon. Friend the wind-ups. I ask them to do the maths and to be as brief Member for St Ives (Andrew George), is about the as possible. effect of combining the legal aid proposals with Lord Jackson’s proposals on clinical negligence cases. Lord Jackson was clear about it. He said: 2.58 pm “I stress the vital necessity of making no further cutbacks in Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): As always, Mr Weir, legal aid availability or eligibility…the maintenance of legal aid at it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I no less than the present levels makes sound economic sense and is in the public interest”. congratulate the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing this debate. Will the Government take account of that plea, and avoid a double whammy? Legal aid changes and the Many quotations have been used in support of legal Jackson proposals together would mean that those who aid, from the Magna Carta onwards. I have one from have suffered through error would not be able to continue George Washington, who said: with their cases. “The true administration of justice is the firmest pillar of good government.” Secondly, I flag up a concern raised with me by Andy McGowan, the access and funding officer of Cambridge I firmly believe that the current proposals to reform university students union. He is one of those rare legal aid risk rocking the very foundations of that pillar, people on free school meals who got to Oxbridge—the and I submit that I am not alone in that. Government would like to see more of them—and he More than 5,000 responses to its consultation were wants to practise as a criminal legal aid solicitor; he is received by the Ministry of Justice. A number of common driven by a motivation that I am sure we would all concerns were raised, one of which is the loss of most endorse to help the most vulnerable in society. He asks early intervention advice, with access available solely how he can fund the legal practice course in the absence through a telephone gateway. I believe that such proposals of the training contract grant scheme, knowing that he will disadvantage the most vulnerable in our society—the will be unlikely to be as well paid as those lawyers for disabled, the elderly, those on a low income with a whom money is the principle motivation? If we lose pre-paid mobile phone who often ring about debt issues, people like Andy from the profession and from public those with mental health issues, those whose first language service, we will create a less fair future for many years to is not English and many others. Expansion of telephone come. advice is welcome, but it should not be the sole means of It is not my intention to attack the Government’s contact. proposals without offering an alternative. That is not a That leads me on to another issue—where will we helpful or effective way of approaching such debates, refer the people who are found to be ineligible? The and I am always disappointed when others do not say assertion is that advice and help are available from clearly what they would do differently. There is clearly other sources, but that is inaccurate. Many of the much in the Government’s proposals that is sensible. I organisations that were identified in the Green Paper do cannot claim to be an expert on legal aid, and I have not provide, or do not have the resources to provide, relied heavily on the hard work of many other people in specialist, face-to-face advice. Government delivery agencies preparing this speech. I am grateful to them for all that such as Jobcentre Plus and independent tribunals do they do to preserve what is good about the present not, and cannot ever, provide independent advice. In system, and for their wider struggle to provide access to the absence of alternative provision, I fully expect that justice for all, especially for the most vulnerable. The many more social welfare and other legal problems will case that I have attempted to build draws on the research turn up at MPs’ surgeries and casework services. and evidence of others. The same is true of the alternative Civil legal aid has been disproportionately cut, especially that I offer the Government. social welfare law, and that will disproportionately affect The Law Society, which for a long time was officially the not-for profit providers, which provide more than responsible for legal aid, has continued to play a major 75% of the social welfare law advice under contracts role in shaping the debate on this important subject. It with the Legal Services Commission. It is no exaggeration has produced an alternative set of proposals that aim to to say that when the cuts in legal aid are taken in go beyond the savings that the Government have set conjunction with the other reductions in funding at out. It projects savings of £384 million, which could primary care trusts, local authorities and central even reach slightly more, yet at the same time it claims Government, the effect on the sector will be catastrophic. 461WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 462WH

More than 50% of citizens advice bureaux surveyed would involve a reduction in expenditure on legal aid. It said that they did not expect to survive or would certainly is important that we take out party politics from this be much reduced. Again, where will the people who use issue. I do not believe that that either helps the debate or these much loved and much trusted services go? They puts it in a proper context. could seek help from other statutory agencies as they move I am a member of the Justice Committee. As was from coping with assistance to not coping. They could mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge end up at MPs’ surgeries, where we have neither the (Dr Huppert), whom I congratulate on securing this knowledge nor the resources to help them all, or they debate, the Committee produced a report in recent could become litigants in person, pursuing their cases months, which was based on a series of evidence sessions without assistance or advice and causing huge backlogs on the Green Paper. I commend the report to the in the courts and tribunal system. Chamber. It is the result of a lot of hard work from As the Minister has often asserted, these cases are not Committee members. Its conclusions and recommendations simple and they sometimes involve issues of liberty. I are being carefully considered by the Minister. I must have previously mentioned a case from Wigan citizens say that the Minister has, at all times, been extremely advice bureau in which a client had been convicted of open to suggestions, proposals and counter-proposals benefit fraud. With the assistance of a specialist adviser, about the future of legal aid, and I pay tribute to him they appealed and were able to reduce the amount owed for the work that he is doing. from £27,000 to £236. The report is a challenging read. One of its fundamental Debt problems are often complex; they require advisers points is the dearth of evidence at case level to work out to understand time orders, unfair credit relationships, the key cost drivers of legal aid expenditure in England bailiffs and insolvency law. Indeed, removing help from and Wales. In other words, there is precious little evidence debt cases will inevitably lead to more calls on the to help decision makers come to a view on why we health service. I refer hon. Members to a paper on spend more on legal aid per head as a percentage of debt-related suicide, which was produced by Zacchaeus GDP than other comparable countries. It is the strong 2000. Its case studies provide tragic examples of the view of the Committee that far more academic research effect that debt can have on an individual’s state of needs to be done domestically to work out the reasons mind. Taking away legal aid for people in debt will for that expenditure on legal aid. mean that 110,051 fewer people will have access to such During my research into the subject, a couple of facts advice. There will still be the fee-paying debt management shone out. First, many more cases tend to be prosecuted sector, which seeks to make a profit out of misery while in England and Wales than in other jurisdictions. Secondly, often providing a poor-quality and inappropriate service. some of our processes of law are much more complex The proposals will not save money in the long run; than those in other countries. One example is in the they will merely move the expenditure to other Departments. field of welfare benefits law, which, without the guidance I urge the Minister seriously to consider many of the and help of a lawyer, can be a real minefield for litigants suggestions on saving money from the independent and lay people. advice sector and the other consultation respondees, An important fact that we must not overlook is the and not to take social welfare law out of scope. There global view of expenditure on legal processes. It is have been many suggestions, such as reducing bureaucracy wrong to look at legal aid in isolation; we should be and looking at the services that are provided. As the considering the cost of prosecutions, court processes Legal Action Group said, and the judiciary. When we consider those three areas “The personal, social and economic consequences of removing together, the Council of Europe’s most recent report, access to justice for so many people is unknown”— which offers comparators between England and Wales and unforgiveable. and other European countries, shows that our expenditure as a percentage of GDP per head is equal to the 3.3 pm average. Suddenly, the assertion that we spend more on legal aid compared with other countries becomes a little Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is a hollow. Perhaps, therefore, we should be careful before pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. we base any policy developments on assertions such as I will bear in mind your exhortation about brevity. I that. congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Having said that, it is quite clear that there are a Fovargue) on following your strictures, and I shall do number of areas in which we can make reforms to likewise. reduce expenditure on legal aid. We were particularly I speak as a former practitioner in legal aid, at the struck as a Committee by the evidence of Sir Anthony Bar for nearly 20 years, and as someone who has had May, the president of the Queen’s Bench Division, who wide experience of criminal, family and civil legal aid. It reminded us that when it comes to the scope of judicial has been a changing picture. I hesitate to use the phrase review, there was a case for saying that, for the merry- “permanent revolution”, but it has felt like that at go-round of appeal on appeal in asylum cases—as a times, especially over the past 10 or so years, when the Lord Justice of Appeal described it—legal aid should previous Government bombarded the profession with be removed. A substantial saving could be made there. consultation after consultation and literally made it As my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge said, it revolve on the spot with the number of questions that is incumbent on Committee members or Members of they kept on asking of the system. Parliament to come up with constructive proposals that The reality is that whoever had been elected to can offer real and effective savings. Government last year would be dealing with the legal The problem does not, however, begin and end with aid issue. Whoever was sitting in the Minister’s seat now the law. As has been said, the quality, or lack of quality, would no doubt be putting forward proposals that of Departments’ decision making has led to an explosion 463WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 464WH

[Mr Robert Buckland] “If the government persists with these proposals it would represent a sharp break from the long-standing bipartisan consensus in appeals, and the Department for Work and Pensions that effective access to justice is essential to underpin the rule of is a notable example. One statistic that came before the law.” Committee showed that 92% of appeals against DWP To that I say, “Hear, hear.” decisions were successful, which speaks volumes, I am Given the time constraints, I will confine myself to afraid, about the poor quality of the decision making. family law, although I recognise that there are problems The Committee’s view was that we should adopt the in relation to immigration law, welfare law, housing law “polluter pays” principle and award costs against and many other parts of the social welfare legal system. Departments that make poor decisions that result in As has been said, a mistake has been made, albeit one successful appeals; in other words, we should place an whose consequences were not imagined at the time. The incentive on Departments to get their decisions right in way in which the qualification criterion relating to the first place. The counter-argument is that that merely violence has been framed is utterly unworkable. As a involves transferring money from one Department to practitioner, like the hon. Member for South Swindon, another, but we really need to get the incentives right so I have seen accusations made for various reasons, and it that we avoid the need to go to law in the first place. We is as sure as the fact that I am standing here that people should encourage such an approach across the piece will make accusations of violence simply to avail themselves when it comes to poor decision making. of a legal aid certificate, that being the only way in The report raised many other points, some of which which they will be able to get representation. have been covered, and I will not repeat them. However, Victims of violence may be brought to court by those the Minister will forgive me for repeating something seeking to continue their control over them. As has that he has heard me say many times before, and I make been said, we need to look at the definition. It could no apology for saying it again. Adopting a narrow cover abuse, including mental abuse and all kinds of definition of domestic violence and a narrow reliance other dominant abuse. It will not always be male on on previous court orders, as opposed to undertakings female, but it will mostly be. To use European parlance, or promises made by people to the court, opens up a there will be an inequality of arms, which will, in effect, host of problems when it comes to ensuring that people mean that if one party can afford a lawyer, and the have fair representation in what are often quite serious other party is honest enough to say that there has been cases. The definition is not a good one to rely on, and no violence, that party will not avail herself—it will the report submits that it should not be relied on—or probably be a woman—of any assistance. That must be that it should, at the very least, be expanded to include wrong. domestic abuse. Indeed, I would go further and refer to a course of conduct representing domestic abuse to I accept, by the way, that mediation is a good step avoid the Government’s quite proper concerns about forward in some ways. It has been tried for many years one-off situations being characterised as something more in relation to a great number of issues, including some serious. that are as far from the one we are discussing as multimillion-pound shipping contracts; indeed, it seems For all those reasons, I argue that more work needs to that London is the mediation capital of the world, and be done to improve the ambit of the Green Paper and to good luck to the lawyers involved. However, the issue ensure that any changes to the legal aid system do not before us is an entirely different kettle of fish. disadvantage those who genuinely need it. I have received dozens, if not hundreds, of letters from lawyers practising in this field. Every time a lawyer 3.12 pm claims that the loss of legal aid will damage members of the public, that is thought to be special pleading on Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): It is a behalf of the lawyer. Let us cut to the chase: legal aid great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. lawyers have not had an increase in fees for the past I will truncate my remarks because other Members wish 11 years, so anyone wanting to become a fat cat would to speak. not open a legal aid practice. As a lawyer yourself, I do not wish to trump the hon. Member for South Mr Weir, I suspect that you know that, too, although Swindon (Mr Buckland), but I have 35 years’ experience you should not get involved in the debate. This is not a of family and criminal legal matters, and I have been question of self-serving special pleading; the people we publicly and privately funded. However, I totally agree are talking about are dedicated to providing a service, with most of what he said, and when people agree and as anyone will know if they have been in court across the House, there is obviously something to worry when there has been the possibility that a family will be about because there is a problem. The hon. Gentleman permanently broken up and one party will never see the laid out some important facts. Like me, he is a member children again—I have been in court on such occasions— of the Justice Committee, and he made several of the such cases are very fraught and emotionally charged. points I was going to make. I really wish that the Government would slow down. Mrs Grant: The proposals also rely on judges, chairmen Many of their proposed changes, including those we are of tribunals and magistrates having the time to give discussing today, are being rushed, and there is not advice to litigants in person. Does the right hon. Gentleman adequate time for real consultation. Yes, there have agree that that time simply does not exist? Judges already been 5,000 consultees in this case, but the consultation have back-to-back lists. To give an example from Kent, has been a rushed job, and it has left a real fear out there is already a five-month waiting list to see a judge there. For example, Desmond Hudson, the chief executive for parents who are being denied access to their children. of the Law Society, has said: That is totally unacceptable for any parent. 465WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 466WH

Mr Llwyd: Yes, that is absolutely right. That is partly violence as a criterion. In fairness to the Minister, he because of judges’ time, but it is also to do with the said when he came before the Committee that he would Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service look at the issue again. With respect, he has had time to and various other things. I should add that if a person look at it again. Will he tell us today whether he has a seeking legal aid to protect their relationship with their better definition that will not work against the best child is denied legal aid, they will not walk down the interests of the children we are here to protect? road and say, “Tough. That’s it. I’m not going to have anything done about this. I’ll walk away.” That person will go into court, very often without the expertise, 3.24 pm knowledge and learning to do the job properly, and they Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I may even do themselves down. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge When he gave evidence to the Committee, Sir Nicholas (Dr Huppert) on securing the debate and setting out Wall said that people do not give up easily in matters succinctly many of the challenges that the coalition involving a child, and nor should they. As he and others Government face in both reining in the budget and have also said, the courts will be flooded out with minimising the impact on those reliant on legal aid. litigants in person, and any conceivable saving that the What is not in dispute today is the fact that budget Government are looking at will be swallowed up in reductions need to be made. Given that the Ministry of dealing with that issue, let alone anything else. As we Justice’s budget consists principally of staffing costs, know, there is the “no order” principle in the Children prisons and legal aid, there are not many areas to which Act 1989, and it will drive people to go to court to the Government can go to identify savings. It is also ensure that they have contact with their children. true that a number of organisations that I, and I am I urge the Minister, by the way, to look at section 64 sure other Members, have met have confirmed that their of the Family Law Act 1996 as some kind of backstop. view is that there are potential savings. The Law Society That provision, for which I was responsible, would give and others have set out ways in which those savings the children independent representation. Nobody in could be made. this Chamber or anywhere else would want the children I will not run over the growth in expenditure on legal to suffer, because they are what this process is all about. aid in recent years, because it is well known. It is clear When parents break up, they might throw things at each that the budget reductions will have an impact on many other and do whatever they want, but ultimately the organisations. I do not know whether the Minister has damage is done to the young person or persons in the read all 5,000 submissions; I doubt he has, and we middle. I do not want to stand idly by and see that would not expect him to have, but he may have read a sector of society not being looked after properly; anything sample of them and I am sure he has had a large short of that is downright uncivilised. number of meetings with a range of organisations, so he will have heard the main concerns. I thank him for Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the right hon. meeting me with my local citizens advice bureau and Gentleman give way? Citizens Advice to hear their concerns about some of the proposals. Mr Llwyd: Very briefly, because others wish to speak. Given the limited time, I will restrict my comments to telephone advice, medical negligence, the impact assessment Jim Shannon: In my experience over the past 30 years and savings. I think that telephone advice can play a key as a councillor and so on, I have found that those who role. It is accessible to people who do not feel able to need legal aid most are those who come looking for it. access a face-to-face contact because they are put off by Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if we are not it in a way that they might not be put off by telephone careful, the changes that the Government are proposing contact. However, there remain many queries about will lead to a two-tier system—one for those who can how telephone advice will work. afford it and one for those who cannot? There will clearly be people, as other Members have said, for whom telephone advice is inappropriate, and Mr Llwyd: I am sorry to say that that is exactly it. We therefore a clear pathway from initial contact, to a are rapidly reaching that point, and one might argue referral, to a face-to-face contact will need to be provided that we are already there. Some people will get access by that service. How will urgent inquiries be dealt with? and others will not, and that is abhorrent. We are all What referral process will be used to ensure that the equal before the law, and are all entitled to equal access calls are passed to the relevant organisation to deal with to the law and its procedures. It appears that these them? Can the Minister do any more to flesh those measures will definitely limit that scope. There will law details out? I know many organisations that would be for some and not for others. I urge the Government interested to hear more. again to look once more at the issue. I am sure that many Members have been lobbied I will not go beyond the changes in family law today, about medical negligence—particularly those cases involving for obvious reasons. The National Association of Guardians children who have been most seriously affected by it Ad Litem and Reporting Officers—if it does not know and how they can continue to be supported. As an what it is talking about, nobody does—says that the aside, the Minister might want to talk to Health Ministers changes are premature, that they have no sound evidence about whether introducing a duty of candour—in other base and that children have not been considered as words, requiring health professionals to confirm when stakeholders for the purposes of the impact assessment. an accident has taken place—could play a role in reducing In conclusion, I merely refer to page 71 of the Justice the need for cases to go to court in the first place. Other Committee’s report, the main part of which the hon. Members have referred to family law, so I will not touch Member for South Swindon mentioned, about domestic on that. 467WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 468WH

[Tom Brake] The knock-on effects of legal aid and Ministry of Justice budget support to advice agencies are very important As the impact assessment confirms, because black indeed. I do not believe—any more than anybody else and minority ethnic communities, women and low-income does—that people should litigate for the sake of litigation. groups are more represented in the group of people However, effective citizens advice bureaux play a very who receive legal aid, the impact on them will be important part in giving people access to justice ahead disproportionate. However, I hope that the coalition of the danger of going to law. Cuts in CAB budgets or Government will still want to redress that, not simply advice budgets are simply not very sensible at any accept that it is the case—put more emphasis on ensuring time—particularly now, when many people are facing that those groups are not disproportionately affected by economic difficulties. the change because they are disproportionally represented I pay enormous tribute to Islington council, which in the group that receives legal aid. has just managed to reopen the CAB in the borough. It Other Members, including my hon. Friend the Member reopened on 1 April and it is already heavily overloaded, for Cambridge, referred to the savings that we can as we had predicted, but it is doing its best in the derive through providing advice services: £1 of legal aid circumstances. Commendably, there is a liaison arrangement expenditure on housing advice saves £2.34, and employment between the CAB, Islington Law Centre, Islington People’s advice saves £7.13. I hope that the Minister, if not now Rights and the local authority, to ensure that they share then later, can provide some analysis of the impact of out responsibility and specialist knowledge to offer any the measures that we, as a coalition Government, are particular help that is required. That is very good as it proposing, to ensure that we do not see the cost-shunting ends the idea of competition between advice agencies, that many people believe will arise as a result of the particularly where funding is concerned. changes. Simply passing costs on to other organisations There are many issues to be covered in this debate, or Government Departments will not be helpful. but I want to be brief as the Front-Bench spokesmen Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge obviously need to respond. Housing issues are massive referred to the proposals from the Law Society. How and they are faced by people in inner city communities, will those concrete, detailed suggestions be taken on such as the one that I have the honour to represent, board as part of the consultation process? I am sure probably more than by anyone else. I will just quote that the Minister is also aware of the proposals that from an e-mail that I received from Anne Baxendale of Keir Starmer, the Director of Public Prosecutions, put Shelter about this issue: forward on how costs can be saved in the wider legal “The government is proposing to remove all housing benefits arena. cases and a third of other housing cases from the scope of legal I hope that the Minister will respond to those points. aid. Shelter is alarmed that this is happening at the same time that The Government clearly and quite rightly have to address huge changes are taking place within homelessness legislation, the budget, but there are ways and means of addressing social housing tenure and the housing benefit system.” it most effectively. I hope that they are looking carefully People are already coming to my surgery or advice at the proposals on the table from a range of organisations bureau about this issue and the same is true for Islington about other ways to address it and that they take those People’s Rights, Islington Law Centre and the CAB. proposals on board where appropriate. Those people are being told that their housing benefit, or housing allowance, is insufficient to meet the new rent levels; even with the transitional payments, they are 3.27 pm nowhere near meeting them. In some cases, they are Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I congratulate £100 a week—or even more—light on the demands the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert)on obtaining being made of them. The only alternative for them is to the debate and on how he introduced it. It is a valuable move to somewhere else that is cheaper—if they can subject. I apologise in advance to the Minister as I afford to do so, given all the associated uprooting. might miss part of his reply because I have a delegation These people are scared, even terrified, and they desperately from Disability Action in Islington to meet just before need access to good-quality legal representation to protect 4 o’clock. I hope that he understands that I need to be themselves at a time of emergency. Taking legal aid there to see them. away from such people is simply grossly unfair—it This is not the first or, I suspect, the last debate that would be unfair at any time, but it is particularly unfair we will have on legal aid. I hope that the Minister will at this time. give us an idea of when the Government will respond to I will be very brief on the issues relating to children, the consultation. I hope that there will be adequate time as there is not much time left. The question of children for us to digest their response and a full day’s debate on and immigration issues is a very great one indeed. I the Floor of the House long before any legislation or understand, appreciate and welcome the fact—indeed, changes are put in place. I applaud it—that asylum cases have been removed It must be almost unprecedented to have 5,000 replies from this picture. Contrary to what the hon. Member to a consultation of this nature—I am sure that the for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) said, I do not believe Minister has read all of them. I hope that he read the that there is an endless merry-go-round of appeals. one from Jeremy Corbyn, MP for Islington North, What I have found is that there is an incredible degree of because it was greatly laboured over. It did not involve inefficiency at the Home Office and the Border and only my views; I called a consultation meeting of local Immigration Agency, such that asylum cases often hang legal aid practitioners, advice agencies, the local authority around for years. and others, so what I put forward is on their behalf as I am embarrassed to tell people that they must wait a much as my own. They have extremely strong views year for a reply to a letter and that if they phone up the about the situation, as one can imagine. Home Office they will only make things worse. That is 469WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 470WH not how a Government Department or any public service news at the end of the month, or whenever the reply to should ever deal with or respond to anybody. I say to the consultation comes, the cuts being proposed will the Minister that he should keep legal aid for asylum mean that more than 600,000 people will not have cases, but he might ask his colleagues at the Home access to legal aid. If we want a fair, decent and just Office kindly to reply to letters and not lose files. I have society, everyone must have access to the law. We are not said that to every Government I have had dealings with, seeking a litigation society, but a justice society and I so it is not a party political point; I said it to my own hope that the Minister will understand the strength of Government and I will say it to any Government. feeling expressed in the representations that he receives The decision to give legal aid only for cases of detention on this matter. is simply unfair. If legal aid is given, an application is The vast majority of solicitors and barristers acting made and the person is then released from detention. on legal aid cases do not make much money out of that However, they then lose legal aid; they might end up work. They make far more money on commercial cases, back in detention where they might get legal aid again, libel cases, media cases or “personality”-driven cases. so that they are on a merry-go-round. It is simply not The majority of solicitors I meet who deal with legal aid credible that such an arbitrary distinction can be made cases that are hard to sort out are paid very little. They between support for detention and support for immigration work very hard and they are doing us a lot of good. cases. Immigration cases should either be supported or not; I do not see how a simple distinction can be drawn Furthermore, the loss of training contracts means in that way. that many of the solicitors of tomorrow will not be around to represent people. Many young people are studying law in universities and colleges at present. We John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): My want them to use their skills and we want them to hon. Friend and I are part of a 10-year campaign to try represent the hardest-hit and most vulnerable people in to get the proper inspection and registration of immigration society. I ask the Minister to think carefully about the advisers. These measures could take us back to those very thoughtful and very carefully prepared representations back-street advisers again, whereby the most vulnerable that I know he has received on this subject. people are exploited in dreadful ways and wind up in detention as a result. 3.37 pm Jeremy Corbyn: I was just talking to my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) about Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): May I the exploitative individuals—and, frankly, the chancers— start, Mr Weir, by saying what a pleasure it is to serve who have now become involved in immigration law. under your chairmanship? I also want to congratulate Basically they are spivs, who charge very vulnerable the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), not people very large sums of money for writing letters. only on securing this debate but on making a very They do no more than that. Some of them are not even thorough and persuasive speech. qualified. It was in November last year—six months ago—that My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington the Minister first produced his proposals to restrict the (John McDonnell) is absolutely right. For many years, scope and availability of legal aid. A lot has happened we campaigned in this House for proper registration of since then. In fact, this is our third debate on the issue in immigration practitioners and for an end to immigration this House and I know that the Minister has also advisers, who in any case are often unqualified. The late debated it outside the House with others, including my Bernie Grant, the former MP for Tottenham, was extremely noble Friend Lord Bach. The other place is debating the active on that issue and we basically got rid of most of issue again next week. As a result, many of the arguments those immigration advisers. However, they are all back should be familiar to the Minister, but what we have not now, big-time, and they are making a great deal of had so far is any effective response to those arguments. money out of extremely vulnerable people. I am sure that the Minister is aware of that problem. It has been Several Members have already spoken in the debate. reflected in many of the submissions made to him and We have heard from Members from all parties who are I look forward to a response from him that recognises committed to legal aid and understand its importance that. in our system. Among the many good points that the hon. Member for Cambridge made was one about The final point that I want to make about children is viability; he asked whether the cuts will actually leave a about the removal of legal aid for education cases. I viable legal aid service at all. have a distressing number of immigration cases in my constituency involving education. I do not have a vast My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne number of them, but they are often very distressing and Fovargue) drew on her own experience to make the the people involved need representation. That is because point that telephone advice, however important it is, some children who are suspended or expelled from cannot be the only entry point to the system. She said school then have to go to another school. Unfortunately that the alternative provisions that have been suggested their representation and their files often follow them are not adequate and that the alternative providers around and they end up being almost totally excluded suggested by the Government are not equal to the task from the whole education system. That is not good for that has been set them; they have said so themselves. them and it is not good for anybody. Proper representation In addition, the hon. Member for South Swindon would often prevent that situation from happening. (Mr Buckland) nailed the allegation that legal aid is The number of cases that are dealt with by legal aid hugely expensive in this country. As he said, spending in this country at the moment is 934,000, apparently. on legal aid as a proportion of the costs of the legal Unless the Minister is going to give us some very good system is not high. Clearly, it must be restrained but I 471WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 472WH

[Mr Andy Slaughter] survey has shown that more than 50% of its members do not believe they will be financially viable once the think that there have been false arguments that it is cuts take effect. disproportionately higher than similar spending in other I ask the Minister to listen to those hugely experienced jurisdictions. and articulate voices. Labour Governments over the The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd past 65 years have fielded a good record in this area, (Mr Llwyd), who has, I think, more experience in this setting up the legal aid system, funding the first law field than any other Member here, urged the Minister to centres and increasing spending on advisory services think more slowly and carefully, and to make the decision such as Citizens Advice, and on social welfare legal aid. not in the rushed way that has been portrayed so far, But we also restricted the growth in legal aid funding but in a way that takes account of all the views that have from 2003 onwards, and would continue to do so if we been expressed. That, perhaps, is the key point coming were still in government. out of this debate. My hon. Friend the Member for I am at a loss to understand why the Government Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) talked about housing—a have abandoned some of the plans that we had to subject very dear to my own heart as well—and the restrict that growth further, particularly in the tendering effect on our constituents in London, and the hon. process, and particularly in the criminal legal aid field. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) Social welfare legal aid is only 5% of the total legal aid talked about the false economies that there will be in budget, and I hope that the Minister is giving a lot of making the cuts to legal aid. scrutiny to that area in deciding on the revisions to his All those arguments might be familiar, but the Minister plans. Removing social welfare legal aid from scope needs to respond to them today. He has had the benefit will, I believe, give the whip hand to large public and of the report from the Justice Committee, which took private corporations, and will allow an inequality of evidence from senior judges, the Minister himself and arms that is unacceptable in our civil and criminal leaders in civil society, and criticised the lack of an justice systems. evidential basis for the Minister’s proposals. On issue I would like briefly to deal with the issue of who is after issue, from the increase in litigants in person to the most affected. The Minister has said previously that it is additional cost to the public purse and the inability of inevitable that poorer people will be affected because it alternative providers to pick up the pieces should the is they who are in receipt of legal aid—but that is a proposals come into force, the Select Committee told slightly glib answer, if I may say so. The excellent brief the Minister to slow down, do some research and come prepared for this debate by a young legal aid lawyer back with revised proposals. drills down into the figures and shows that, were the Other organisations, in particular practitioner proposals introduced, 44% of people who received organisations, have done the work that the Minister and representation last year and 68% of those who got legal his civil servants have not done, in providing evidence of help would not now receive that assistance, and that the effect of the changes. I mention in particular the more than 80% of people who would lose the assistance Legal Action Group, which took the original figure of are in the poorest fifth of the population. Also, 80% of 500,000—my hon. Friend the Member for Islington people who will be affected by the eligibility changes are North said it was more than 600,000—and added in the in the poorest fifth of the population. Not a lot has most up-to-date figures for the past financial year and been said about those changes, but they are highly for the telephone advisory service. The resulting figure significant. was nearer 725,000, which is almost 50% more than the When one looks at the discriminatory effects of what Government initially said. the Minister proposes, one sees that 31% of those affected by the scope changes in housing are from the The Legal Aid Practitioners Group has considered black and minority ethnic population, compared with the point about viability. The fact that the entry point 8% in the general population; some 63% of those affected has to be through telephone advice has its disincentives. by the scope changes to welfare benefit legal aid are Many people will not be able to cope with the telephone disabled, compared with 18% in the general population. system; they rely on face-to-face advice, and will simply The Minister might say that that is a truism, but his not access the system at all. The figures by local authority Government should be ashamed that changes of that area show that if we relied on such a system, the kind are being proposed, given the disbenefit that they reduction in the service that could be provided face to will have. It is a myth that representation is not for legal face would bring the service down to something like purposes, but for general advice—people need it to 7% to 10% of existing levels, which would not be understand complex legal issues and to make appeals to sustainable. Purely by way of example, in my own higher courts—and that the people who currently benefit borough of Hammersmith and Fulham that would take are in a position to represent themselves. us from the current 1,600 case starts to 155 under the new system, which would not be sufficient to pay one The Minister has heard from both sides of the House person’s salary for a year. If that situation was replicated today, including very eloquent speeches from Government across local authority areas, there would be no service Members who have many years’ experience of this issue. at all. I notice that Joanna Lumley has joined the growing campaign, which should provide the Minister with pause The Law Centres Federation has looked at the impact for thought, given her track record on such matters. I of cuts that have already taken place, including local do not expect a full response today, but when the authority cuts, which are at 53% in law centres—61% in Minister finally comes to respond to the 5,000 responses— London and 100% in my own borough. Those figures compared with the 50 received in the last consultation ought to be considered before any legal aid cuts are on legal aid by the previous Labour Government—I brought into effect this financial year. A Citizens Advice hope that, even if he has not read each response, he will 473WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 474WH have considered the overwhelming weight of opinion on In that context, we make our proposals to reform a the effect that the measures will have, not only on very legal aid system that has grown considerably over the vulnerable people and on those of us who still try to years. Since the modern legal aid system was established provide an advice service with very limited means, but in 1949, its scope has been widened far beyond what on the whole criminal and civil justice system. That will was originally intended. Without indulging in caricatures, be in jeopardy if we take away access to justice, removing as my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge put it, the right of anyone with a meritorious case to get the the facts of the matter show that by 1999, legal aid initial advice, representation and assistance that they funding was available for virtually every type of potential need to bring the case to court. issue, including some that should not require any legal That is not, I hope, something that the Minister, expertise to resolve. Legal aid forms a vital part of a given his background, would wish to see. I hope that he justice system of which we can all be rightly proud, and will give an indication in his response today, and a fuller the Government are committed to maintaining and indication in that formal response—the date of which safeguarding that system, not least by ensuring that he will no doubt provide now—that the Government legal aid is appropriately targeted and set at levels have been listening to all those voices and will respond that are sustainable in the long term. with a more sympathetic and pragmatic attitude to the The scheme now costs more than £2 billion a year, continuation of legal aid. making it one of the most expensive in the world, even—I say to my hon. Friend the Member for South 3.48 pm Swindon—taking jurisdictional difference into account. We must understand that, even after reform, we will still The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice have one of the most expensive schemes in the world, if (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I congratulate my hon. Friend not the most expensive. In developing our legal aid the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing reform proposals, we went back to basic principles in the debate. I am always pleased to debate with him. order to choose which issues are of sufficient priority to Many important points have been covered by the hon. justify the use of public funds, subject to people’s means Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), the right and the merits of the case. hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington The proposals in the consultation paper aimed to (Tom Brake), the hon. Members for Islington North take into account the importance of the issues at stake, (Jeremy Corbyn) and for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) litigants’ ability to present their own case, the availability and my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon of alternative sources of funding and routes to resolution (Mr Buckland). and our domestic and international legal obligations. I I of course recognise the strength of feeling about can confirm to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge our legal aid system and the importance that Members that help for the most vulnerable will be prioritised here attach to that system, and to access to justice. I under our proposals. As hon. Members will be aware, share that feeling, and can assure Members that the the consultation closed on 14 February. Since then, we Government do not look to reforming legal aid lightly. have been considering all the responses received, around As Members know, the context of the Government’s 4,800 in total. I also received during the consultation overall reforms is to recognise the need to tackle the many letters from hon. Members representing their own deficit that we inherited on entering office. It is hard to views and informing me of their constituents’. overstate how serious the situation we found was. Robust This is our third debate in the House on legal aid. I action was essential to maintain market confidence and welcomed the helpful input in the recent report of the to create conditions for recovery, which is why the Lord Justice Committee, and I can confirm to hon. Members Chancellor agreed with the Home Secretary to significantly that we in the MOJ are listening hard. We expect to reduce real-terms spending in the broad area of justice announce our way forward in the next few weeks. I hope and law and order, and why the Department is playing that hon. Members will see then how the coalition its part in taking the necessary steps to get our economy Government’s response shows that we are committed to back to growth and stability. working with them and stakeholders to ensure access Last month’s spending review set out the considerable to justice and a legal aid system fit for the future. scale of the challenge for the Ministry of Justice: it has I am, of course, unable to give details about the to reduce its budget by £2 billion in 2014-15. We are Government’s response today, but it might be helpful looking for savings in various ways. Legal aid, one for me to recap some of our proposals. In order to focus of the three big areas of spending in the Ministry of financial support where it is most appropriate and Justice, will need to contribute substantially to that necessary, the proposed reforms involve significant change reduction, as I believe the coalition parties—and indeed to the scope of legal aid funding, about which many the Opposition—accept. hon. Members have raised concerns. We did not propose However, as I have mentioned in previous debates, any changes to the scope of criminal legal aid. It was our policy cannot and will not be determined simply by also proposed that legal aid should remain routinely the need to deal with the deficit. One need not be well available in civil and family cases where people’s liberty acquainted with our justice system, legal structures or is at stake or where they are at risk of serious physical legal aid system to see considerable potential for reform. harm or immediate loss of their home. Financial considerations and the need for reform come For example, we proposed to retain legal aid for together, which presents us with an opportunity to asylum cases, for debt and housing matters where someone’s develop new policies that secure access to justice and a home is at immediate risk and for mental health cases. legal aid system for the future. The coalition Government’s It will still be provided where people face state intervention aim is a more efficient and effective justice and legal aid in their family affairs that might result in their children system, not just a more affordable one. being taken into care, in cases involving domestic violence 475WH Legal Aid11 MAY 2011 Legal Aid 476WH

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly] However, legal aid is only part of the picture. Local government, not the MOJ, is the largest single funder of or forced marriage and in immigration detention cases, the not-for-profit advice sector, and several other where the appellant’s liberty is at stake. We also proposed Departments provide significant funding. Indeed, legal that legal aid should remain available for cases in which aid accounts for only about 15% of the total income of people seek to hold the state to account by judicial citizens advice bureaux. Around half of bureaux do not review and cases involving discrimination that are currently receive any funding from legal aid. That is why a cross- in scope. Legal help to bereaved families in inquests, governmental approach is needed. including for deaths of active service personnel, would also remain in scope. I can confirm that the Ministry of Justice is working actively with colleagues in the Cabinet Office, the I can confirm, particularly to the hon. Member for Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and Makerfield and to my hon. Friend the Member for other Departments that fund advice providers or deal Carshalton and Wallington, that we are looking closely with the impact if people do not receive the advice that at telephone advice proposals. I maintain that to a great they need to identify how best to work across Government extent, our proposals will help rather than hinder access to examine the issue. I have had several meetings with to justice, particularly for the disabled and those in ministerial colleagues to consider how that can be achieved. rural areas. That will be covered in our response. We openly accept that there will remain times when face-to-face In the very little time remaining, I will try to cover meetings are required. some of the specific points raised. My hon. Friend the The Government further proposed to remove claims Member for Cambridge mentioned immigration. We of clinical negligence from the scope of the civil legal proposed to keep legal aid for asylum cases. In the aid scheme. In many cases, alternative sources of funding consultation paper, we proposed to remove immigration are available, such as no win, no fee arrangements. We cases from the scope of legal aid, except in detention also proposed to remove from scope the categories of cases where a person’s liberty is at stake and cases employment, education, immigration, some debt and before the Special Immigration Appeals Commission in housing issues and welfare benefits, except for cases which a person may be removed or excluded from the involving risk to anyone’s safety or liberty, risk of UK on the grounds of national security or other public homelessness or discrimination. In many such cases, the interest. The tribunal process in immigration cases is issues are not necessarily of a legal nature, but resolving designed to be straightforward, and interpreters are them requires information, practical advice or other provided. I can confirm that, separately from the legal forms of expertise. aid consultation, we are piloting the provision of legal advice earlier in the asylum process to help to improve We recognise that international or domestic law require the quality of asylum decision making. We are currently some cases within the areas of law that we proposed to considering the responses to the consultation on that remove from scope to be funded by the taxpayer. We issue and will publish our own response in due course. therefore proposed a new exceptional funding scheme for excluded cases. In those cases where it is appropriate On the relationship between immigration and domestic to keep supporting with legal aid funding, it is important violence, the consultation paper did not propose to that the Government secure the best possible value for make an exception for immigration cases under the money in procuring legal services. The consultation domestic violence rule. Although we recognise that paper therefore announced the Government’s intention domestic violence victims may need more help with to introduce price competition for legal aid in criminal forms and procedures than other immigration applicants, proceedings and, in the longer term, for civil and family what is needed is not necessarily specialist legal help. We cases, too. Further, more detailed consultation on criminal are currently reconsidering responses on that issue, and competition will follow later in the year. we will come back to the House. However, I confirm In the meantime, the paper proposed more immediate that we proposed that legal aid should remain available changes to criminal fee schemes that should encourage to those seeking an injunction to prevent domestic cases to be brought to justice more quickly and efficiently. violence, regardless of their nationality or immigration They include harmonising the guilty plea fee paid for status. certain either-way cases regardless of venue and for My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge mentioned other Crown court guilty pleas regardless of the stage in domestic violence in the context of private family law the proceedings. We also proposed to reduce all fees and asked whether the definition of domestic violence paid in civil and family matters by 10% and to exert was too narrow. That was also mentioned by my hon. greater control over the rising costs of expert fees. We Friend the Member for South Swindon, the right hon. proposed to increase the proportion of advice delivered Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd and others. In the by telephone through the existing community legal consultation, we proposed that private law family legal advice helpline, as I have discussed. aid should continue to be available where there is objective We recognise that the proposals would affect funding evidence of domestic violence. We have asked for views for not-for-profit legal aid providers such as Citizens on what might provide objective evidence and therefore Advice. I have had numerous helpful meetings in recent trigger private family law legal aid. We have been giving months with representatives of not-for-profit organisations careful consideration to the points raised in response— to discuss the impact of the legal aid proposals and listen to their concerns during the consultation, although I must say that in the past, I have queried the Citizens Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. I am afraid that Advice figures mentioned. we have run out of time for this debate. 477WH 11 MAY 2011 Avon Ring Road (M4 Link) 478WH

Avon Ring Road (M4 Link) 2005, an amendment was tabled in full council that, when considering the joint local transport plan for the west of England, 4pm “the M4 Link should be specifically named as a potential JLTP Major Scheme Bid.” Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): The Avon ring Sadly, that amendment was voted down by the previous road, or the A4174, runs through the Kingswood administration. constituency like a spine, passing alongside Emersons Green, Kingswood, Warmley and Longwell Green before In thanking those who have fought at a local level for joining the A4 at Hicks Gate junction near Keynsham. the M4 link to remain a possibility, I pay tribute to local It is, for many constituents, a vital transport network Emersons Green Councillors Colin Hunt, James Hunt that allows quick and efficient access to most areas of and Dave Kearns, for their commitment to standing up the constituency. for local Emersons Green residents, who know just how much easier their daily lives would be with an M4 link Recently, the local, Conservative-run South road in place. Another strong and vocal supporter of Gloucestershire council has invested heavily in improving the M4 link was the late Ian Morris, who was a councillor congestion on the ring road, including the introduction for Emersons Green and who would have taken a keen of traffic light signalisation on two roundabouts in interest in today’s debate. He was a passionate champion Warmley and Longwell Green, with the promise of for Emersons Green who understood the community’s further investment, with traffic lights to be added on need for greater infrastructure. Tower Lane roundabout at Barrs Court. Having doubled the road budget, which suffered for so long from chronic The reason why I have called this debate today is to lack of investment under the previous administration, make the Minister aware that the need for transport the local area is finally witnessing real change for the infrastructure in my local area is greater than ever benefit of local residents and commuters alike. before. Not only has Emersons Green expanded in size to a population of nearly 9,000 residents, but the Emersons Many of my constituents in Kingswood will be familiar Green East development will start shortly and will with the proposal for an M4 link to the Avon ring road. provide an additional 3,000 homes to the region. As For many years, since the completion of the A4174, was made clear in the consultation response to South which runs within a few hundred metres of the M4 near Gloucestershire council’s core strategy document: the Westerleigh roundabout, local residents in the “There is a need for a new M4 Junction to serve the increased Kingswood constituency, particularly Emersons Green, population.” have had to face lengthy morning commutes to get on to the M4, either by travelling on the Avon ring road to the There is also a strong economic case for the link road, M32 in Hambrook, which is about 3½ miles away, or by which was considered by the “Greater Bristol Strategic taking a 7-mile trip along minor roads through Transport Study” in 2006. Overall, it found that an M4 Pucklechurch to Tormarton. Not only does that add link road would have a net present value of £247 million several miles to their journey, but the ring road in the and a benefit to cost ratio of 12. In other words, the M4 morning is frequently heavily congested, with cars at a link would pay for itself many times over. standstill. Since that study, the economic case for the M4 link to An M4 link to the Avon ring road—what was once the Avon ring road has become even stronger. The proposed as junction 18A—would help to solve that reason for that is the exciting and vital prospect of the problem by giving the local community and east Bristol £300 million Bristol and Bath science park, which is easy access to our motorway network, which is already currently under construction in Emersons Green. The enjoyed by those living in north Bristol. science park points to the future for our local area. Not only does it have the potential to create 6,000 new jobs Sadly, the proposal for a new link road and a new in the local neighbourhood, but it will be at the cutting junction on the M4 is by no means a new idea. It was edge of manufacturing in the local area, housing test-bed first put forward by the former Avon county council as facilities, laboratories, office space and semi-industrial far back as 1985. It was accepted in principle by the workspace for a range of science and technology businesses. then Department for Transport, but it was never included It is intended to provide a stepping stone for fast-growing, in the Government’s trunk road programme. Responsibility innovative new companies, particularly those emerging for the scheme later passed to South Gloucestershire from the region’s universities. council following local government reorganisation. Recently, I had the opportunity to visit the excellent Mention of a possible junction 18A on the M4, National Composites Centre at the site. It is one of the linking the A4174, was last raised in Parliament in first buildings that will be operational, and it will act as 2000, when the then Minister acknowledged: the main hub for research and development into carbon “The Council subsequently carried out a review of a number fibre technology in the UK. It was recently named as of major road schemes in their area in the context of current one of the Government’s high-value manufacturing, Government transport policy and emerging development plan technology and innovation centres. The Deputy Prime policies. As a result, they decided in 1999 not to pursue this Minister has praised these centres—there are currently particular scheme.”—[Official Report, 13 November 2000; Vol. 356, only seven—as c. 496W.] “a major early milestone in our ambition to rebalance the economy” The decisions, or, rather, mistakes, made more than 10 years ago by a previous administration of South and the Business Secretary also recently visited the Gloucestershire council are now coming back to haunt National Composites Centre. local residents. Despite that, over the past decade, Currently, corporate inward investors from across the Conservative councillors have fought hard for an M4 globe are considering whether to invest in the Bristol link to the Avon ring road to be considered. In July and Bath science park. They are attracted to the science 479WH Avon Ring Road (M4 Link)11 MAY 2011 Avon Ring Road (M4 Link) 480WH

[Chris Skidmore] I am absolutely determined to drive forward. We need the infrastructure in place to ensure that both business park by a number of factors: access to educated and and the local community can grow. An M4 link to the talented graduates; existing managerial talent at local Avon ring road would be a vital part of that infrastructure, corporations; the culture and lifestyle that the region and I hope that it can be considered for the future in offers; and the business eco-system of the science park due course. itself, which will provide state of the art facilities, buildings and landscape. Science park representatives are currently speaking 4.9 pm to a number of prospective international occupiers who The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport would create centres of excellence in applied technology (Norman Baker): Congratulations, Mr Weir, on a marathon on the site and potentially fund early stage research at session in the Chair today. I also congratulate my hon. the universities. The majority of jobs at the site would Friend the Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) be newly created and would require a high education on securing this important debate and on representing and skill level. However, transport access is also a his constituents so diligently in the matter. There are significant part of creating an attractive offer. two strands to my response: first, the process for prioritising For international companies, transport links to the the funding of local major schemes in the spending science park are vital, particularly from Heathrow. They review period up to 2015 and beyond; and secondly, the seek assurance that, upon arrival at Heathrow, their importance of local authorities considering a range of international senior executives will have easy and options for addressing transport problems in the short straightforward access to a local operation. Most prospective and longer terms and what short-term options he might occupiers have undertaken due diligence and are fully consider to try to deal with the situation that he describes aware of the long-standing need for an additional junction so eloquently. on the ring road from the M4 between junctions 18 and 19. Above all, they can see from visiting the science Of course, my hon. Friend will not need to be reminded park themselves that the M4 is literally a stone’s throw of the economic situation that the Government have away. inherited and that the main priority is to reduce the A new junction 18A connecting the ring road to the deficit and promote sustainable economic growth. The M4 would ensure that the science park would be able to emergency Budget last June and the October spending thrive in the international climate of corporate investment review were part of that strategy. However, in the spending and become a world-class facility for the region, promoting review, the Government recognised the importance of growth and investment to the benefit of the local economy transport infrastructure and its ability to help the economy and, above all, generating local jobs. It is not just the to grow. There is a clear link and he is right to draw science park that would benefit from an M4 link; the attention to that link in general and to the specifics of nearby Emerald park, the Harlequin business park and his constituency’s science park, to which he referred. the Emersons Green treatment centre are also close by, We are committed to investing capital of £6 billion and one of the main hubs for Avon and Somerset police over the next four years in local transport, including will shortly be moving into Emersons Green. £1.5 billion in local authority and major schemes. The Bristol and Bath region is rich with both leading Nevertheless, over the next four years, we simply cannot businesses and academic research, but it is clear that the afford to deliver every scheme that is being proposed. infrastructure—both transport and digital provision—has We inherited from the previous Administration a completely not kept pace with the potential now available. In unrealistic pipeline of schemes that could not have been addition to the science park, the university of the West delivered, even if the economy were in its most buoyant of England, Airbus and BAE Systems, to name a few, form. We have therefore had to take tough decisions to are considering the development of new business parks prioritise schemes. My Department has set out a process on their sites in the west of the region. All those for delivering a programme of local major schemes over developments have the potential to create thousands of the spending review period. The long lead time for new, high- value jobs. The attractiveness of those developing major transport schemes means that we developments to investors, employers, employees and have only considered schemes that had already secured residents could be in question if investment in new conditional approval or programme entry funding approval, infrastructure were to be ruled out indefinitely. or that had a bid for programme entry already lodged I thank the Minister for his correspondence with me with the Department prior to the suspension of major over the possibility of an M4 link to the Avon ring road. scheme activity on 10 June 2010. That is when the I am a realist and am fully aware that, for the time portcullis came down, if I can use an appropriate metaphor being, in the current comprehensive spending review for the House. period, the funds are not available for a link road. We have been keen to ensure that we get value for However, all that I ask is that the proposal is not ruled money and we have driven down the costs of schemes out indefinitely, and that the Department seriously considers that we have been considering in the pool. That will the prospect of a junction 18A and a link road to the enable us to proceed with more schemes than would Avon ring road from the M4. I also want to use this have been the case if the previous Government had opportunity to launch a petition of local residents to simply accepted the estimates available to them. We join the campaign for an M4 link. I hope that, when the announced on 4 February this year the schemes we were signatures are finally gathered, the Minister will kindly approving, those we were not going to take forward and accept that petition. those that are in the development pool. Promoters of This campaign is not merely about getting a road schemes in the development pool have until September built. It is about encouraging economic growth and to come back with best and final offers and we shall enterprise in the Kingswood area, which, as the local MP, announce in December which ones are approved. 481WH Avon Ring Road (M4 Link)11 MAY 2011 Avon Ring Road (M4 Link) 482WH

Despite what may have been said elsewhere, I must long-distance commuting to and from developments in Emersons make it clear that the road that is the subject of this Green and Pucklechurch, which would go against the principles debate has, I am advised by officials, never been put of sustainable development.” forward officially to the Department for Transport for I stress that those were the comments of the Government funding as a local authority major scheme. Indeed, office for the south-west in 2006. I read that out partly South Gloucestershire council’s core strategy talks about for the record, but also because if my hon. Friend is the road only being a reality post-2026. So I hope that keen to promote his scheme, he will need to address the my hon. Friend would accept that it is unfair to consider arguments that will be made. funding it within the current spending review period However, I want to be optimistic about the short given the process we have been through. For the record, term, as well as looking at the longer-term possibilities. again, despite what may have been said elsewhere, the My hon. Friend might be interested in looking at options scheme has certainly never been promised funding by that provide short-term benefits. In the development the Department for Transport. I am not aware of the pool of major schemes, to which I have referred, one is comments made by my ministerial predecessor some being promoted by South Gloucestershire council in years ago, but I have asked officials to dig them out for conjunction with the West of England Partnership and me and let me have copies, so that I can see for the Bristol city council. If approved, that scheme may help record what was said. to address some of the congestion issues to which he The Department for Transport is working on the has referred. development of a policy for prioritising and funding The scheme I am talking about is the North Fringe to local authority major schemes beyond 2015. We recognise Hengrove package, which includes a series of that it is not possible to progress many schemes in this complementary projects that would facilitate the period that, nevertheless, have merit and ought to be development of three new rapid transit routes linking considered properly post-2015. It is our intention to the North Fringe, East Fringe and South Bristol areas move to a more devolved funding framework for major via Bristol city centre. The promoters argue that the schemes, with local enterprise partnerships and others rapid transit network will provide a fast, frequent and being more relevant in the process. That framework will reliable public transport service, where services run on a be developed further during 2011 and I have no doubt combination of segregated busways and bus lanes separate that the Secretary of State will make a further from car traffic. Services would be given priority over announcement in due course about exactly how that other road users at traffic signals. will operate. Promoters argue that the scheme would provide a To answer my hon. Friend’s specific point, I can say high-quality passenger experience, with ticket machines that his proposal has not been ruled out indefinitely, but at stops, user-friendly electronic information displays, that it cannot proceed within the present time frame that high-quality stop design including CCTV and lighting, I have identified up to 2015. It is certainly up to him and and safe and secure access to stops. The network would others to make further representations, collect local also provide improved pedestrian and cycling measures, support directly from residents and also perhaps through including new footways and cycleways and appropriate local councils, the local enterprise partnership and others, modern and safe crossing points. A decision will be so that when the next round of transport schemes are made on Government support or otherwise for that considered, the case has been well advanced. If he scheme in December. I am not clear about whether my wants to do that, I encourage him to do so. In the hon. Friend believes that that is a useful scheme. If he meantime, if he wants to present a petition to me, I will does, it is on the table at an advanced stage and he may certainly be happy to accept it from him and his constituents. want to make representations in favour of it before we take a decision later this year. I referred to that today Moving on to the second strand of my speech, I for background. I stress that no decision has been made encourage promoters of schemes to consider a range of for or against the scheme at this stage. solutions for addressing transport problems. As part of The West of England Partnership has also submitted the case that my hon. Friend wants to build up and may a bid to the Department for funding from the local well be building up—I encourage him to do so—it is sustainable transport fund, which I launched with the worth drawing attention to some of the comments White Paper, “Creating Growth, Cutting Carbon,” earlier made hitherto about the road, so that he is aware of this year. The promoters argue that elements of that bid them. The “Greater Bristol Strategic Transport Study”, would help to ease congestion in the area we have been which was produced in 2006, was commissioned by the talking about by promoting an integrated package of Government office for the south-west to consider the low-carbon alternatives to single-occupancy car use. case for building the link road. For the benefit of those The full bid document can be found on the Travelplus who have not had a chance to read the document, let me website. The Department will make a decision on that read the concluding paragraph of the section that considers bid at the end of June this year. I stress again that no the link road: decision for or against has been taken; it has not been “Although the new M4 to A4174 Link road scheme has a evaluated properly. However, if that is something that strong economic case, mainly derived from travel time savings for my hon. Friend supports, he may want to make journeys from outside the study area, it is not being recommended representations about that before we take a decision in by the study. The new link would alter flow patterns in the June—not very far away. congested area between M4 J20 and M4 J19, M32 J1 and the On a more general point, I would like to mention the northern stretch of the A4174 Avon Ring Road, putting additional strain on the A4174 and causing congestion problems on the M4 local transport White Paper, “Creating Growth, Cutting to the east of the new junction with the strong likelihood that the Carbon”, which I launched in January. It shows how widening of the M4 between Junctions 18A and 18 would be the Government are empowering local authorities, from necessary. The improved linkage to the M4 is likely to encourage streamlining transport funding from 26 to four grants— 483WH Avon Ring Road (M4 Link) 11 MAY 2011 484WH

[Norman Baker] Women Offender One-stop Shops reducing all the unnecessary, bureaucratic streams that the previous Government had—to powers in the Localism 4.27 pm Bill. The White Paper also sets out a number of sustainable Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): It is with transport choices that local authorities can make for great pleasure that I speak in this debate under your their areas, from making public transport more attractive wonderfully impartial chairmanship, Mr Weir. I am to car-sharing clubs; from improved cycle networks to pleased to see, yet again, my colleague from the Ministry bus partnerships; and from community transport to of Justice, with whom I participated in a recent Westminster travel planning. Those are the sorts of things that allow Hall debate on coroners. I hope that this debate on people to travel freely without hindering economic growth women in the criminal justice system is equally consensual, or increasing their carbon footprints. I urge local authorities and that we reach a partnership in the same way. to consider those options in developing solutions to I asked for the debate today because I am extremely transport problems. There is a further tranche of money concerned about the disconnect between the Government’s available after tranche one. stated aims and policy on alternatives to prison, to To conclude, we have set out a process for prioritising which I am very committed, and the lack of sustainable local major transport schemes over the next four years. and increased funding for the network of organisations Consistent with our localism and decentralisation agenda, that could help the Government achieve their long-term it is our intention to move towards a more devolved aim. framework for prioritising and funding local major I have long felt that it is a national disgrace that we schemes beyond 2015. That suggests that local people’s jail more women than any other country in the western views will perhaps be more important than they have world. The number of women in jail is increasing more been hitherto in deciding the priorities for local schemes. quickly than that for men, yet the offences women Garnering local opinion, therefore, may well be a useful commit are often petty, small in nature, requiring short exercise for my hon. Friend in the meantime. Beyond sentences. In the past decade, the number of women that, the local transport White Paper sets out the wide entering prison has increased by 44%. The rise is not range of sustainable transport options for local authorities driven by an increase in criminality among women but and others to consider to support economic growth and by the courts, increasingly sentencing women to jail for to reduce carbon emissions. Those two objectives are minor crimes. My focus today is on the funding for and remain the central objectives of the Department for women’s centres, the one-stop shops, which provide a Transport. cheaper and often more effective rehabilitative outcome as an alternative to prison for women. 4.21 pm The most common reason for women to be imprisoned Sitting suspended. is shoplifting, and 64% of women sentenced to jail are serving short-terms of less than six months. Female prisoners are much more likely to be serving short-term sentences than men, and are much more likely than men to have been imprisoned for non-violent, acquisitive crimes. To put it bluntly, if men had committed many of the offences that these women have committed, they would not have been jailed. All of the recent expert reviews of the criminal justice system, by Baroness Corston, Lord Bradley and the Fawcett commission, have come to the same conclusion: prison is not the answer. I am pleased that we also often hear that statement coming out of Government. We need services providing interventions to help and support women in turning their own lives around, services such as those provided by one-stop centres for women offenders, which are also known as women’s centres. Building on the excellent work done by charities such as the Asha centre, the Calderdale women’s centre, Together Women and the women’s turnaround project in Cardiff, in 2009 the Ministry of Justice invested £15.6 million. There is now a national network of almost 50 women offender one-stop shops around the UK but, sadly, that is not enough: coverage is patchy, particularly in rural areas. The way in which each such centre works is unique and the services available to women can vary, as the centres are often run by local or regional charities, with their own ethos and practices. Such centres work with women at every stage in the criminal justice system. What they have in common is that they will take women referred to them by the courts, police or social services who have offended or are at risk of offending, helping 485WH Women Offender One-stop Shops11 MAY 2011 Women Offender One-stop Shops 486WH the women to take responsibility. The centres do not contact with and responsibility for their children, is one only contain them, they get the women to take responsibility of the ways in which prison does not work for women for their own lives. offenders, because it does not enable them to take those Juliet Lyon of the Prison Reform Trust said to me responsibilities in the future or to manage normal lives, that, when women are sent to prison, they do not have which is what those women need to learn how to do? the opportunity to address the underlying reasons for their crimes. They are not encouraged to take responsibility Mrs Moon: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Even for their everyday lives: for sorting out somewhere to more devastatingly, prison sets up a future generation live, paying bills, cooking meals or looking after their who, potentially, because of that trauma, will end up in children. Prison takes women away from their lives, and the criminal justice system. That is the great failure we refuses them the opportunity to take responsibility for have to tackle. themselves or to address their problems. In a lot of cases, many of the factors I have talked One-stop shops for women offenders operate as hubs, about—the sexual abuse, the violence experienced, the offering back-up and support to ensure that appointments mental health problems, the drugs—are all experienced are kept and that courses dealing with the issues taking by individual women. It is not only a case of one women into the criminal justice system in the first place woman having a mental health issue and one a drugs are completed. problem, with another having experienced sexual abuse: many will have all three combined. If they are to be Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate rehabilitated, they will not be able to do it by themselves. my hon. Friend on securing this enormously important Housing such women in a prison will not tackle those debate. Does she agree that, as a consequence of the major issues, which is why we must deal with the problems comprehensive nature of the support from women’s that caused the offending if we are to look at rehabilitation centres, we are seeing dramatic reductions in the rate of and reducing reoffending. If we do not deal with the reoffending? That is of benefit not only to the women, effects of these women’s life experiences as victims of but to the children and to society, and makes the centres abuse and suffering, we will not change their lives or the extremely cost-effective. If we look at the issue in the lives they are helping their own children to build. More cold terms of cost per crime avoided, a concept that importantly, we are doubly punishing those women, might be applied more generally in the criminal justice doubly victimising them—they are victims of abuse in system, women’s centres are extremely good value, as their childhoods, then victims as adults in society. well as the right thing to do. Two thirds of women prisoners are mothers, and one Mrs Moon: Absolutely. That is very much the direction third are lone parents. Only 5% of the children of in which I am hoping to take the debate, demonstrating women prisoners remain in their own home while their exactly those points made by my right hon. Friend. mother is in prison. Ninety-five per cent. must leave In many cases, we find that prison allows women to their home, to be looked after by grandparents or opt out of responsibility; to opt out of the life experiences family friends, or to go into care. Eighteen thousand that have often brought them into the criminal justice children live away from their home because their mother system. The one-stop shops get the women to the stage is in prison, setting up a future generation of damaged, of beginning to see what they want for their future, disadvantaged and traumatised children. We could say, beyond coping with the moment. That is an incredible “Well, it’s only six months—such women mainly undertake thing to do; to help people move on from coping with short sentences,” but the sentence can be catastrophic the moment to seeing a life and the potential in the for women and their families. The 2007 Corston report future, not only for themselves but for their children. made the case for a completely new approach: Many women offenders are also the victims of crimes “a distinct radically different, visibly-led, strategic, proportionate, that have left them with enormous problems in their holistic, woman-centred, integrated approach.” lives, so a prison sentence presents a unique problem I recommend watching a short film on the Prison Reform and difficulty for women. Up to 50% of female prisoners Trust’s website called “Smart Justice for Women”. It have experienced violence in the home, and one in three makes a strong case for alternatives to custody, and sets has been the victim of sexual abuse; up to 80% of them out visually so much better than I can in words. women in prison have diagnosable mental health problems; 70% of women coming into custody require drugs Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): detoxification, compared with 50% of men; 16% of the Does the hon. Lady agree that the public need more female prison population self-harm, compared with confidence in community sentences, and that we must 3% of men; and the rate of suicide is higher among deal with the scepticism, and show that they are not female prisoners than male ones, despite the opposite fluffy options, but intensive interventions that challenge being the case in the general population. Women prisoners women to change their lives? are also less likely than male prisoners to have settled accommodation, qualifications or experience of working, and they are more likely to have been living in poverty. Mrs Moon: It is not just the public we must convince; Because there are so few women’s prisons, they are we must convince the courts, and ensure that they know often situated further away from their children, friends, of the centres’ work, their success, and that turning a families and support networks, so they receive less help life around is a hard choice. It is much easier to remain and support during their sentences and when they leave in the victim status, and to live life in that way. We all prison. know that. If someone has been the victim of sexual abuse, been physically abused, or has a mental health Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Does my hon. problem, or a drug or alcohol problem, tackling those Friend agree that the issue she is coming on to, how issues is not a soft option. It is a hard option, and that is prison takes women away from their families and from what we are asking the Government to make available—not 487WH Women Offender One-stop Shops11 MAY 2011 Women Offender One-stop Shops 488WH

[Mrs Moon] for that. The National Offender Management Service will be responsible for commissioning those services in a soft option, but a hard option. I thank the hon. Lady 2012-13 if the centres are shown to be effective in for her intervention because it is crucial to get the diverting women from reoffending. But we do not have message across. information about when and how decisions will be The sort of work carried out by one-stop shops for made, and what criteria will be used for assessment. The women offenders is clear, as is the fact that they are centres do excellent work, and the women who benefit effective at reducing reoffending and improving the from them need to know as soon as possible what lives of these women, and that they are cost effective. measures they will be being judged against. Evaluation in 2009 found that between July 2007 and Prisons are not an optional extra in the criminal July 2008, only four out of 87 women who accessed the justice system, and we do not expect them to have to Evolve integrated women’s project at Calderdale women’s fund themselves year on year to keep going. Women’s centre reoffended. The rate of self-reported reoffending centres should not be considered to be optional extras, in the first year of operation of the Together Women or be funded in that way. They need to be part of the projects was 7% in the north-west, and 13% in the bedrock of our criminal justice system, with continuous Yorkshire and Humberside region. That compares with funding guaranteed for those centres that are working a national reoffending rate of 33%, and is a clear well. I am more than happy for them to be judged demonstration of success. against criteria. They should be inspected, and they The SWAN project in Northumberland has achieved should demonstrate that they work, but their funding a 70% reduction in the rate of reoffending by women should be assured within those parameters. who have engaged with the project. The sort of intensive The recently announced national liaison and diversion support that is provided in these projects needs specialist service for mentally ill people in the criminal justice training and specialist resources. That is why, although system should use women’s centres as a foothold to there are huge savings to be made, they require investment. promote the agenda more widely, and not sideline them We cannot afford to lose the skills base in those centres. as an experiment. We have a fantastic joint commitment We cannot afford to see people moving away from from the Ministry of Justice and the Department of working in those centres to other areas of the criminal Health. Women’s centres should be used as a model to justice system because of funding instability. move forward, and they should be expanded so that we do not start from scratch in 2014, but have a bedrock Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) and a base that we could be utilising now. The women’s (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this justice task force, which was established by the Prison important debate. My experience of women who are Reform Trust, is due to publish its findings shortly, and released from custody and the associated costs is that it I hope that the Minister will read them carefully, and is often difficult to find accommodation for them. When provide leadership, as my hon. Friends the Members for I managed a women’s refuge, we would often take Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) and for Garston and Halewood women released directly from prison, who may have (Maria Eagle) did under the previous Government. had electronic tags or other reporting requirements. The previous Government was quick to accept the The difficulty is that when those women have a prison findings of the review showing that intervention and sentence behind them, many accommodation projects support in the community is more effective than prison, will find it difficult to accommodate them, and will but it was too slow in coming forward with sustainable, refuse them, thus compounding the damage that can be increased funding to put the policy into practice. The done. Justice Secretary bought a lot of good favour in the sector with his warm words last summer, but unless the Mrs Moon: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and Green Paper acts on those words he will have wasted a what is so sad is that when they go to prison, some of golden opportunity. Will he take the opportunity today those women have accommodation where they can look to detail how the network of women’s centres will be after their family and children. Instead, they lose that put on a sustainable footing with funding secured for accommodation, and build up debt, which makes them the future so that they can expand, how the Government unattractive to landlords in the future. Their children will provide leadership, how the network of centres will go into care, sometimes at a cost of up to £30,000 a be made accountable to the Ministry of Justice with a week per child. All that could be saved if, instead of a system of assessment and inspection, and how the prison sentence, those women could stay in the community courts will be provided with more information about and tackle the issues that led them into crime. women’s centres so that they can use community sentences It can cost £50,000 a year to keep a woman in prison. with confidence, and so that we do not carry on with the The cost to taxpayers and society through the criminal waste of human lives which is represented by the number justice system, policing, social services and the benefits of women and their children who are damaged by system of not addressing the problems that bring women involvement in the criminal justice system? into offending is enormous. Research has shown that intensive community order support costing £15,000 can 4.49 pm save the public purse up to £264,000 over five years. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice What I am looking for today is a consistent source of (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I thank the hon. Member for funding, so that projects can be established and maintained Bridgend (Mrs Moon) for raising this important issue. with the confidence that they are sustainable. Funding It has been a good debate with helpful contributions. As for most existing centres for 2011-12 has been secured part of the proposals for reforming the justice system, through the Ministry of Justice and the Corston the Government want to continue to focus on turning independent funders coalition, and I am extremely grateful women away from crime. One-stop shops provide much 489WH Women Offender One-stop Shops11 MAY 2011 Women Offender One-stop Shops 490WH needed community provision for women offenders. The A key part of that approach has been the development complex reasons underlying women’s offending, and of a network of women’s community services over the the particular vulnerabilities of women, were recognised past two years. Funding was given to well-established by the Corston review in 2007, and Baroness Corston is voluntary sector providers to develop effective community- welcome here today. based interventions, working in partnership with probation The hon. Lady began by mentioning funding, so I services. That approach aimed to provide new options will also start with that issue in case I run out of time. for the courts, strong bail provision and robust community I understand her point about consistency. It has sentences. Most of those services are based around a always been the intention to embed the wider network central hub such as a building—a one-stop shop, for of women’s community services—one-stop shops as example—or a key worker, so that at any point in the they are sometimes known—into mainstream local criminal justice system, women can access support to commissioning. I acknowledge, however, that in the meet their complex needs and turn them away from current fiscal climate, securing funding at local level has crime. been extremely challenging for many projects. In recognition To date, 45 projects have been supported, including of that, and of the work needed to embed that approach 13 that were jointly funded by the Corston Independent into mainstream local commissioning, National Offender Funders’ Coalition through the women’s diversionary Management Services and the Corston Independent fund. Over 4,600 women have been referred to those Funders’ Coalition have agreed over £3.2 million of projects—58% with drug and alcohol needs, having funding for 2011-12, as the hon. Lady recognised, to made positive progress, and 56% with health needs, sustain the majority of projects that were previously including problems of mental health. Women’s bail funded by the Ministry of Justice. In addition, Michael services were also funded to enhance the Bail Spurr, chief executive of NOMS, has made a commitment Accommodation and Support Service contract, and to from 2012-13 onwards to commission services that provide higher levels of support and mentoring for demonstrate effectiveness. That will be worked through women. as part of the discussions on the allocation of next The Government recognise that voluntary sector year’s budget. organisations have long shown the way in providing Baroness Corston’s report highlighted the different some of the solutions to reoffending. The £2 million risks and needs faced by women. Women are more partnership between the MOJ and the Corston Independent likely to serve short sentences for acquisitive crime, and Funders’ Coalition is a ground-breaking and ongoing to have complex needs that could include a combination collaboration that is, I believe, an excellent example of of mental health, drug or alcohol problems, or long the big society in action. histories of abuse. As the hon. Lady noted, 37% of Nationally, we are beginning to make an impact on female prisoners self-harm compared with 7% of male these deeply entrenched problems. The women’s prison prisoners. Women tend to be convicted for less serious population has reached a plateau—as the right hon. offences—34% of women prisoners were sentenced for Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) pointed out, numbers theft and handling offences, compared with 17% of of women serving short sentences fell by 12% between men. About 45% of those remanded in custody in both 2008 and 2009. NOMS works to ensure that we take the magistrates courts and the Crown court do not get a account of women’s different needs, and has developed custodial sentence. Women offenders are also likely to gender-specific standards. It works to promote and be victims of crime. support community-based interventions for women, The costs of the failure to tackle women’s offending including out-of-court disposals to intervene at earlier do not relate only to criminal justice—55% of women in stages. A specific strand of work with probation trusts prison have children under the age of 18, and imprisoned exists in some of the highest remanding areas. mothers are more likely to be lone parents. Twelve per Criminal justice champions, including the judiciary, cent. of their children are in care, staying with foster are also working to raise awareness and increase confidence parents or have been adopted. There is, therefore, both in community-based interventions for women. Baroness a social case and a strong business case for tackling Corston, the chair of the all-party group on women in those issues in the community, not least because of the the penal system, which focused on women’s diversion, possibility of breaking the intergenerational cycle of has acknowledged that improvement in her assessment offending. of the progress made that was published at the beginning of the year. Mr Andrew Smith: Given the commitment the Minister There is, however, more to do. We want to ensure that has made, which I welcome, will he undertake that community services are in place to meet women’s complex future payment-by-result contracts will have a dedicated needs and to help them to stop reoffending. The coalition stream to address the needs of women offenders? Government do not view effective rehabilitation as what my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Mr Djanogly: I will come on to talk about payment Weald (Mrs Grant) called “the fluffy option”, and I am by results, and we are certainly looking at that matter. pleased to highlight that again today. In December we Baroness Corston called for a greater focus and a published a Green Paper entitled “Breaking the cycle: gender-specific approach to women in the criminal justice effective punishment, rehabilitation and sentencing of system, and the development of one-stop shops for offenders” because we could see that the system was not women offenders was strongly influenced by that report. delivering what really matters, such as more effective The Government broadly accept the conclusions in punishments that reduce the prospect of offenders Baroness Corston’s report, and we want to ensure that reoffending time and again. That pattern is true for earlier progress continues as part of wider reforms to many women offenders as well as men. Our aim was to sentencing and rehabilitation. set out how changes to the sentencing framework, coupled 491WH Women Offender One-stop Shops11 MAY 2011 Women Offender One-stop Shops 492WH

[Mr Djanogly] further develop our approach to women offenders. The Government expect to publish their response soon in with more effective rehabilitation, will help to break the the Green Paper, but we have already started to deliver cycle of crime and prison. In the constituency of the some of our plans for addressing problems of mental hon. Member for Bridgend, many of the issues that health and substance misuse. The Secretary of State for affect rehabilitation, such as health and education, are Health is investing £5 million in 20 mental health pathfinder devolved matters. We are working with the Welsh Assembly areas, with the aim of ensuring that liaison and diversion to consider how we can take forward our plans in services are available in police custody suites and at Wales. courts by 2014. The Green Paper provides an opportunity to put a We already know from women’s community services spotlight on the issue of turning women away from how successful such schemes can be. In Birmingham, crime. It recognises that the needs of women offenders for example, the Anawim project has been working with are different, and that the majority of those offenders partners to provide specialist mental health women’s have multiple and complex needs. We are seeking to services. Another major strand of work under way create more effective and robust community sentences, across Government is that of supporting victims of with greater flexibility for the assessment and provision violence. That includes support for women offenders of mental health requirements and treatment as part of who have been abused and who may face barriers in a community order. We must do more to promote accessing the support that they need. Women’s community recovery from dependency, and we know that more services provide much needed support to that group. effective rehabilitation will reduce the number of victims. The MOJ and NOMS have worked with the Home The Green Paper confirmed our commitment to an Office in developing the “Call to End Violence Against approach that addresses all those matters, including the Women and Girls: Action Plan.” development, together with the Department of Health, For women in prison there must be a much stronger of more intensive community-based drug treatment focus on rehabilitation. Prisons should be places of options for women offenders. It recognises that the education, work, rehabilitation and restoration, and we criminal justice system is not always the best place to must ensure that all those approaches work with women manage the problems of less serious offenders when the offenders. For women leaving custody, support is needed offending is related to mental health problems—an to get resettled and eventually to be supported into issue very relevant to women offenders. The MOJ, the stable employment. Department of Health and the Home Office are working Many women’s community services are working to to ensure that front-line criminal justice and health improve women’s employability. North Wales women’s agencies focus on identifying those people with mental centre, for example, put together a package of support health problems at an early stage of the criminal justice for women to gain skills and confidence by embedding process. that into practical learning through a volunteer programme There are also important plans for six payment-by-results that exposes participants to practical activities. That pilots to reduce reoffending. Those pilots will test the programme boosts confidence as well as giving the principle of payment by results, and explore how different participant the opportunity to gain practical skills commissioning models can help to implement that system. such as food hygiene within a simulated work environment. We will ensure that women are included as part of the Across the women’s prisons estate good work is under new approach. The “Breaking the cycle” consultation way. closed on 4 March 2011, and received over 1,200 responses. Baroness Northover led a consultation event on the specific implications for women. That stimulated an 5pm important and informative debate, and we received Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order some thought-provoking responses on how we should No. 10(11)). 37WS Written Ministerial Statements11 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

The Parliament-long review is to ensure that our Written Ministerial employment laws maximise flexibility for both employers and employees without compromising fairness and Statements providing the necessary framework for a competitive business environment and economic growth. Wednesday 11 May 2011 We are today publishing the areas of employment law which we will be among our medium-term priorities for the review. We will consider in detail the case for reform BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS in these areas to ensure they are fit for purpose: Restructuring Moratorium (Consultation) the compensation for discrimination awarded by employment tribunals; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, the rules on collective redundancy; Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I am setting the TUPE regulations. out today the stakeholder responses to our consultation In addition, the review will consider other suitable on proposals for a restructuring moratorium. ideas that come out of the Red Tape Challenge website When launching the consultation, the Government and through discussions with interested parties. were focused on setting a path to balanced and sustainable economic growth across the economy, with increasing jobs and prosperity.This included looking at the challenges HEALTH and risks faced by business in the refinancing and restructuring of existing debts. Addiction to Medicine The consultation document invited views on a restructuring moratorium which would enable viable The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health businesses, with a realistic prospect of implementing a (Anne Milton): I am pleased to inform the House that successful restructuring of their financial affairs, to two reports on addiction to prescription and over-the- obtain a flexible breathing space outside of a formal counter medicines are being published today. Recognising insolvency procedure during which the restructuring that there was a lack of information on this subject, the could be negotiated and implemented. Department of Health commissioned two reports in Forty-two businesses, individuals, and representative 2009-10: bodies responded to the consultation. Responses received The National Addiction Centre was asked to conduct a suggest that, while the refinancing and restructuring of literature review to bring together the published evidence on company debt remains a valid concern, the urgency the scale of the problem and how best to respond to dependence of the case for introducing such a moratorium is not as on medicines; and great as previously thought. Those working on large The National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse was restructurings tell us that they have been able to use asked to contact primary care trusts and treatment providers existing mechanisms to get around some of the problems to investigate prescribing patterns and the help that is currently that the moratorium is designed to address. offered to people who develop problems. There have been suggestions that a greater impact These two reports will play a role in informing might be achieved by the restructuring moratorium the future development of policy and services. In the were it also to tackle issues such as termination clauses Government’s drug strategy, which we launched in (whereby suppliers can cancel essential contracts and December, we set out an ambition to tackle dependence threaten the viability of company’s rescue plans) on all drugs, including prescription and over-the-counter and “cram down” mechanisms (to reduce the power of medicines We need to do all we can to prevent people small creditors to block proposals). These are significant becoming dependent in the first place and to offer and difficult issues. It would be helpful to have further people appropriate support to recover when it does discussions with the main stakeholder groups to explore occur. how much support there might be for addressing these I will be leading work to involve relevant organisations issues; the best way in which to do so and the implications and interested individuals to discuss the future action of introducing such further measures. that is necessary in the light of the information contained The Government have therefore decided that the next in the reports. I look forward to discussions with Members step should be to publish the responses to the consultation of both Houses who have shown a long interest in this that they received to allow all concerned to understand important area. the various views expressed. My officials will then work I am placing the reports in the Library. Copies are with stakeholders both to refine the moratorium proposals available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to and to consider in more detail the additional areas that noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. have been raised. Copies of the non-confidential responses to the consultation are being published today on the Insolvency HOME DEPARTMENT Service website (www.insolvency.gov.uk), together with a summary of those responses. Justice and Home Affairs Council Employment Laws Review The Secretary of State for the Home Department The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, (Mrs Theresa May): The Extraordinary Council will Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): Today the focus on interior issues and is due to be held on 12 May Government have announced the next steps in our in Brussels. I will represent the United Kingdom. As the comprehensive review of employment laws. agenda stands, the following items will be discussed: 39WS Written Ministerial Statements11 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

The Council will start with an EU ministerial breakfast support practical co-operation on asylum in the EU but with the Director of SitCen where discussions will focus do not believe that participation in a common asylum on the aftermath of the death of bin Laden and the policy is right for Britain. We oppose the suspension of situation in north Africa. transfers under the Dublin regulation. Next the Mixed Committee with Norway, Iceland, The Council will receive an update on the situation Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states), on Japan at the request of Belgium. will hold a state of play discussion on the Frontex Finally, the Commission will present their evaluation regulation. The regulation builds on an evaluation of report on the Data Retention Directive. The evaluation the first five years of Frontex’s performance and is recognises the value of communications data in maintaining intended to extend the remit of Frontex into areas that security in the EU and the central role that it plays in will allow it to be more operationally effective going the fight against serious crime but also signals that forward. The Council has previously called for a first changes should be made to the directive which potentially reading agreement of this measure before the end of include greater restrictions on the data types that are June. The UK is not a participant in the Frontex retained; greater restrictions on access to the data; and regulation but we are satisfied that the current draft is greater harmonisation including possibly shortening moving in the right direction. The proposal to give the periods of mandatory data retention. The UK Frontex a limited remit to handle personal information strongly supports the existing directive as it provides a will enable closer working with Europol to counter valuable basis for retaining data that are critical on an criminality, such as human trafficking and smuggling, ongoing basis to counter-terrorism and serious crime at the EU’s external borders. investigations, both in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. Next under Mixed Committee and as the first item in We welcome the fact that the evaluation report recognises the main Council there will be a discussion on the the value of retained communications data to maintaining southern neighbourhood region, in the light of the security in the EU. We recognise the importance of Commission communication on north African migration strong data protection but have concerns that some of issued on 4 May. The presidency will ask member states the changes the Commission are considering would how far they agree with proposals in the communication, have an adverse impact on UK operational capabilities. in preparation for further discussion at the June European We believe that the Data Retention Directive in its Council. The UK welcomes the proposals in the current format has sufficient flexibility to allow member communication for developing effective co-operation states to transpose the directive in a way that is compatible on migration issues with north African countries, especially with both their own data protection requirements and on returns and border security. We are ready to work those of the European Union. with the Commission and other member states to build capacity in those countries by deploying UK experts. JUSTICE We would also like the EU to support more voluntary repatriation of third-country nationals from north Africa Prison Service Pay Review Body back to their countries of origin in sub-Saharan Africa. We stand ready to support member states facing particular pressures, but remain opposed to any large-scale or The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice systematic relocation of migrants within the EU. The (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I am pleased to announce that the Council is also likely to discuss proposals for reforms in Prime Minister has appointed Dr Peter Knight as Chair Schengen governance, including the system for mutual of the Prison Service Pay Review Body for three years evaluation and rules for temporary reintroduction of commencing March 2011, and that I have appointed border controls. The UK does not take part in Schengen Vilma Patterson and Trevor Spires as members of the provisions on border controls, but is supportive of any Prison Service Pay Review Body, also for three years, reforms that combat illegal immigration and strengthen commencing March 2011. The appointments have been the EU’s external borders. conducted in accordance with the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments code of practice Cyprus will also give a presentation on the ministerial on appointments to public bodies. meeting which took place in Nicosia on the 19 April 2011. The Commission will present its evaluation of EU TRANSPORT re-admission agreements and the Council will have an initial exchange of views on the evaluation. The UK Road Safety welcomes the Commission evaluation and supports a number of recommendations made in it. The intention The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip is to reach member state agreement on Council conclusions Hammond): Today I am launching a new strategic on the recommendations at the June JHA Council. framework for road safety. This outlines the Government’s There will be a lunchtime discussion on asylum, plans to reduce deaths and injuries on Britain’s roads as focusing on the Commission’s communication on north well as the measures and steps that others can take. It is African migration. The communication calls for available for download from the Department for Transport negotiations for a common European asylum system to website; www.dft.gov.uk/roadsafety. be completed by the 2012 deadline. The communication The strategic framework aims to provide clarity to also emphasises the Commission’s intention to revise local authorities, road safety professionals and other some of its more controversial proposals on asylum, stakeholders on their roles and responsibilities in improving and argues that an “emergency clause” be introduced road safety and the increased freedom that is being allowing transfers under the Dublin regulation to be given to local authorities in assessing and acting on suspended in certain circumstances. The Government their own priorities. 41WS Written Ministerial Statements11 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

In line with the coalition’s commitment to localism, through the introduction of a new fixed penalty notice we want decisions to be made locally, wherever possible, as well as new remedial educational courses. We need to and this document sets out how we are moving away rebalance road safety enforcement away from a narrow from overarching national road safety targets and towards focus on camera-enforced speed policing, to address the a more sophisticated method of monitoring progress wider range of behaviours that create risk on the roads. through a road safety outcomes framework which will Where road users commit serious, deliberate and repeated help local authorities assess and prioritise their action offences we aim to increase the effectiveness of enforcement and show the impact of central Government measures. for this minority—for example, through improving the Additionally, at the local level, there will be an increase efficiency of action on drink and drug-driving. Through in the road safety information that is available to the this approach we aim to improve the targeting and public to help them hold their local authorities and effectiveness of enforcement to tackle a wide range of service providers to account. unsafe behaviours that cover all careless and dangerous driving offences. Of course, there is still an important role for national Government in delivering safer roads. Our central focus Our long-term vision is to ensure that Britain remains will be on supporting road users who have weak driving a world leader on road safety and to continue the skills or who display a lapse of judgment to improve downward trend in casualties. We believe that the measures their driving, while focusing enforcement resources against set out in this strategic framework will help us to those who deliberately decide to undertake antisocial achieve this vision. and dangerous driving behaviour. Full impact assessments, including the potential impacts Where road users make low-level mistakes or display on enforcement and the judicial system, will be prepared poor skills we intend to divert them in to a greater range in the usual way when legislation is brought forward. of educational courses to help develop safer skills and Copies of this document have been placed in the attitudes. We will extend this approach to careless driving Libraries of both Houses.

21P Petitions11 MAY 2011 Petitions 22P

Frontline clinicians will be empowered to be the leaders Petition of a more autonomous NHS, with increased accountability to their local populations. Wednesday 11 May 2011 This is not about privatising the NHS. The NHS is built on the principle that it is free at the point of use for everyone based on need, not ability to pay. This will not OBSERVATIONS change. Competition in the NHS helps to improve quality and efficiency by allowing people to choose the provider that they wish from a list of accredited providers: as the patient chooses the provider for their care but HEALTH does not pay for it directly, price plays little part in their NHS Reforms decision. However, it will be in providers’ interests to maintain and improve the quality of their services The Petition of residents of York, and others, to attract patients. Declares that the Petitioners believe that the With regard to the residents of York and others’ Government’s health reforms will break up NHS services specific concerns, the Department is taking the opportunity and that these reforms will result in business motives of a natural break in the passage of the Bill to pause, cutting deeply into the fairness, quality and value of the listen, and engage with all those who want the NHS to service at the expense of patient care; that the Petitioners succeed, and subsequently to bring forward amendments believe the reforms will lead to a postcode lottery, with to improve the Bill further. patients’ age, medical condition and home address affecting There is widespread agreement that the principles on the quality of care they receive; that cuts to frontline which the Bill is based, such as improving public jobs and services will lead to longer waiting times; that accountability, devolving control of the NHS to local money will be wasted on the NHS market bureaucracy, levels and placing patients at the heart of decisions draining it from patient care; and that there will be a big about their own care, are the right ones. However, increase in private companies running the health service Ministers recognise that there are also some questions for profit. and concerns about what the Department is doing, and The Petitioners therefore request that the House of about the mechanics of putting these principles into Commons urges the Government to reconsider the reforms practice. so that patients remain at the heart of the NHS. As such, the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Hugh and the Secretary of State launched an engagement Bayley, Official Report, 3 May 2011; Vol. 527, c. 645.] exercise on 6 April so that Ministers can understand [P000917] what is already working well, hear suggestions for Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: implementing the reforms successfully and consider The issue referred to relates to the Health and Social possible ways to improve the Bill. Care Bill, which completed its Committee stage on The Government want to make sure they capture the 31 March. However, the Government recognise that the views of everyone who cares about the NHS. Members speed of progress has brought with it some substantive of the public are able to feed their views into the concerns. While Ministers recognise that some of those listening exercise through patient and professional networks, concerns are genuine, some are misplaced or based on by posting their thoughts on the Modernisation of misrepresentations. Health and Care website at: www.dh.gov.uk/healthandcare Ministers believe that the NHS is a great institution, or by writing to: but that it could be still better. The Government’s plans NHS Modernisation Listening Exercise seek to put clinicians at the heart of planning services Room 605 to improve the care for their patients—there is a body of Richmond House evidence both from this country and internationally about 79 Whitehall the importance of involving clinicians in commissioning London SW1 A 2NS decisions and this is what our proposals are built upon. Email: [email protected]

1205W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1206W

Figures for 1 April 2011 should be available on the Written Answers to website by 12 May 2011 as per the quarterly update of the publication. Questions The costs for these personnel are not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

Wednesday 11 May 2011 Armed Forces: Recruitment

ATTORNEY-GENERAL Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much his Department has spent on advertising Departmental Pensions campaigns in each form of media to recruit service personnel in each month since the date of the strategic defence and security review. [54773] Steve Baker: To ask the Attorney-General what proportion of the budgets of the Law Officers’ Departments Mr Robathan: The information requested is presented he expects to be spent on staff pensions in each of the in the following table: next five years. [54574] £ The Solicitor-General: Pensions for staff in the Law TV and Officers’ Departments are provided through the Principal video on Civil Service Pension Scheme (PCSPS), which is a central Digital demand Radio Cinema arrangement covering Civil Service Departments. October ———— In 2010-11 approximately 8.8% of total operating 2010 costs for the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, Attorney- November 140,000 — — — General’s Office and Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution 2010 Service Inspectorate were attributable to pension payments. December 100,000 — — 61,000 For future planning purposes, it is currently assumed 2010 that the proportion of permanent staff costs attributable January 281,000 704,000 — 122,000 to pensions will remain the same, although it is recognised 2011 that an increase in staff pension contributions is under February 356,000 252,500 — 182,000 consideration. 2011 March 1675,000 777,000 331,000 61,000 As a proportion of the Crown Prosecution Service 2011 budget, payments to the PCSPS for the four years to April — 848,000 100,000 — 2014-15 are estimated to be around 8% per year. 2011 As a proportion of the Serious Fraud Office budget, 1 This includes some £475,000 spent on the RN recruitment campaign payments to the PCSPS for the four years to 2014-15 spread over March and April 2011 but which has been placed against are estimated to be between 5% to 6% per year. March 2011 as it cannot readily be split. It is not possible to provide a comparable figure for The armed forces depend on high-quality young people periods beyond this as the departmental budgets are set wanting to join the services for rewarding and exciting for four years (to 2014-15) only. The budgets for the careers. Despite the reduction in the overall numbers of subsequent period will be set as part of the next spending service personnel, the armed forces are still recruiting review. and training to replace those personnel who leave the services at the end of their contracts.

DEFENCE France: Military Alliances Armed Forces: Deployment Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the (a) Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for practicability, (b) desirability, (c) cost-effectiveness Defence how many armed forces personnel are deployed and (d) effect on Anglo-American military relations of in (a) India, (b) China, (c) the US, (d) Russia, (e) the creation of a joint Anglo-French nuclear deterrent. France and (f) Germany; and at what cost to his [53700] Department in the most recent period for which figures are available. [54518] Dr Fox [holding answer 5 May 2011]: The UK’s independent nuclear deterrent is the ultimate guarantee Nick Harvey: This information is contained in Tri of our national security. We do not think that a joint Service Publication 10, UK Regular Forces Stationed UK-France nuclear deterrent would be feasible or desirable Location (TSP 10); A copy has been placed in the and it has not been considered. Library of the House. Copies of TSP 10 are also available at: We continue to enjoy excellent co-operation with the http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/ US and France on nuclear issues, including, in the case index.php?page=48&thiscontent=100&pubType=0&date of France, under the treaty signed on 2 November 2010. =2011-02-10&disText=01%20Jan%202011&from=historic I discussed these and other issues with my French &topDate=2011-02-10&PublishTime=09:30:00 counterpart on 9 May. 1207W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1208W

HMS Albion Nick Harvey: On current plans, HMS Ocean will be placed at low readiness in 2012 once HMS Illustrious Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for has been returned to a fully operational state. She will Defence (1) what the running cost of HMS Albion was then enter a period of refit before returning to high in each of the last five years; [53770] readiness in 2014 when HMS Illustrious will be finally withdrawn from service. (2) what arrangements are in place for the reactivation at short notice of HMS Albion once it has been placed in extended readiness; and if he will Libya: Armed Conflict estimate the cost of any such reactivation; [53818] (3) what plans he has to place HMS Albion into Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for extended readiness; and if he will estimate the running Defence what the average weekly cost of the contribution cost in its first year in extended readiness. [53819] of each of the armed forces to military operations in Libya has been since the commencement of operations. Nick Harvey: The information requested in respect of [54503] the running cost of HMS Albion is provided in the following table: Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how much his Department has spent on Financial year £ million average on each day of operations over Libya; [54514] (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the 2010-11 20.958 public purse of his Department’s contribution towards 2009-10 22.255 the no-fly zone in Libya. [54516] 2008-09 38.659 2007-08 17.711 Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the These costs include: maintenance, ships manpower, public purse of military operations in Libya since March general stores, minor equipment stores; port visits; satellite 2011; what proportion of such expenditure has been communications and fuel. Financial data prior to financial allocated to (a) NATO and (b) UK operations; and year 2007-08 is not available. from which of his Department’s budgets such expenditure As the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. has been drawn. [55019] Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), announced in the House on 15 December 2010, Official Dr Fox: It is too early to give a robust estimate of the Report, column 102WS, following the strategic defence costs of the operations in Libya, but we expect they and security review, one of our two Landing Platforms should be modest compared with other operations such Docks will in future be placed at extended readiness as Afghanistan. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer while the other is held at high readiness for operations. has made clear the additional costs of operations in Our current plan is that HMS Albion will be placed at Libya will be fully met from the reserve. extended readiness later this year. It will cost approximately £2.5 million to place her into extended readiness and Navy: Redundancy running costs while in extended readiness are estimated to be £300,000 per annum. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for We have no plans to reactivate HMS Albion early Defence whether any members of the ships’ companies and therefore no estimation has been made of the cost of (a) HMS Albion, (b) HMS Ocean and (c) HMS of such reactivation. Liverpool are to be made redundant following their return from UK operations in the Mediterranean and HMS Liverpool the middle east. [54983]

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: HMS Liverpool is on operations. HMS Defence what contribution HMS Liverpool has made Albion and HMS Ocean are currently not on operations to Operation Ellamy; and if he will make a statement. but on a training exercise. [54992] If any members of the ships’ companies meet the criteria for redundancy, as published on 4 April 2011, Nick Harvey [holding answer 10 May 2011]: HMS they would be eligible for selection. If selected they will Liverpool has been operating as part of the NATO be notified on 30 September 2011. Operation Unified Protector, which is implementing the UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973. HMS Strategic Defence and Security Review Liverpool has been taking part in operations aimed at protecting civilians and civilian populated areas in Libya and assisting with the enforcement of the UN arms Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for embargo. Defence if he will re-open the strategic defence and security review in response to recent developments in North Africa and the Middle East. [54142] HMS Ocean Dr Fox [holding answer 5 May 2011]: I refer the right Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Member to the answer I gave on 8 March 2011, Defence what plans he has for the future of HMS Official Report, column 949W, to the hon. Member for Ocean after HMS Illustrious returns to service. [54984] Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace). 1209W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1210W

Syria: Iran Norman Baker: Cycling England ceased to exist after 31 March 2011 and the promotion of cycling now falls David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Department for Transport and local authorities. I Defence what reports he has received on the activities of refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 14 March 2011, Iranian troops in Syria. [54030] Official Report, column 98W, for further information.

Dr Fox: None. Large Goods Vehicle Drivers: Working Hours Trident Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for how many drivers’ hours offences were detected in (a) Defence (1) what reports he has received on the role of 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010; and what proportion of (a) the British American Security Information Council, such offences were committed by drivers of foreign (b) the Ploughshares Fund and (c) the Joseph Rowntree registered heavy goods vehicles. [53203] Foundation in promoting opposition to the continuation of the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent; and if he Mike Penning: In 2008, the Vehicle and Operator will make a statement; [53698] Services Agency issued 19,284 prohibitions to heavy (2) what assessment he has made of the aims of (a) goods vehicles for drivers’ hours offences (51% to drivers the British American Security Information Council, of foreign registered heavy goods vehicles). In 2009 this (b) the Ploughshares Fund and (c) the Joseph Rowntree dropped slightly to 19,186 (58% to drivers of foreign Foundation in the sponsoring of a Trident Commission; registered heavy goods vehicles). In 2010 this rose again and what influence he expects the conclusions of that to 22,358 (52% to drivers of foreign registered heavy commission to have on Government policy. [53699] goods vehicles).

Dr Fox [holding answer 5 May 2011]: The Trident Roads: Accidents Commission, established by the British American Security Information Council, is only the most recent of a number of NGO-sponsored studies into this important Anna Soubry: To ask the Secretary of State for issue. As with the others, the Government will look at Transport how many people were (a) killed and (b) its findings when they are published. injured as a result of road accidents in which a blind spot of a vehicle was found to be the primary cause in Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for each of the last five years. [52661] Defence what assessment he has made of the (a) consequences of and (b) risks entailed by any move Mike Penning: It is not possible to identify accidents away from the policy of continuous at-sea nuclear where the blind spot of a vehicle caused an accident. deterrence; and if he will make a statement. [53701] However, the following table shows, for accidents Dr Fox [holding answer 5 May 2011]: I refer the hon. where “vehicle blind spot” was a reported contributory Member to the statement made by the Prime Minister factor, the number of casualties who were (a) killed on 19 October 2010, Official Report, column 801, and and (b) injured in each of the last five years: to my own, more recent remarks on 14 March 2011, Official Report, column 9. Casualties (a) Killed (b) Injured

Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005 22 2,079 Defence what the Government’s policy is on the (a) 2006 25 2,102 retention and (b) full replacement of the Trident 2007 27 2,079 independent nuclear deterrent. [53702] 2008 25 1,908 Dr Fox [holding answer 5 May 2011]: The Government 2009 22 2,081 have made clear in both the coalition agreement and the Note: Includes only accidents where a police officer attended the scene and strategic defence and security review (SDSR) that they in which a contributory factor was reported. are committed to maintaining and renewing the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent. The SDSR made it clear Anna Soubry: To ask the Secretary of State for that this is intended to be through the continuity of a Transport what steps he is taking to reduce the number submarine-based ballistic missile system. As set out in of road deaths and injuries attributable to vehicle blind the coalition agreement the Liberal Democrats will spots. [52665] continue to make the case for alternatives. Mike Penning: European legislation came into effect in January 2007 requiring all new goods vehicles above TRANSPORT 3.5 tonnes gross mass to be fitted with an enhanced “wide-angle” mirror on both sides and an enhanced Cycling “close proximity” mirror on the passenger side of the cab. For new vehicles over 7.5 tonnes gross mass a Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for “front” mirror above the windscreen is also required. Transport which bodies will be responsible for the work Vehicles where the “close proximity” and “front” mirrors undertaken by Cycling England following its closure; cannot be fitted over 2 metres from the ground are and if he will make a statement. [53776] exempt. 1211W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1212W

Further European legislation came into effect in March (5) how many road traffic accidents involving drivers 2009 that requires existing goods vehicles above 3.5 tonnes who did not have valid motor insurance there were in gross mass first registered from January 2000, to be the last three years. [53798] retro-fitted with improved mirrors on the passenger side, to provide a similar field of view to that required Mike Penning [holding answer 4 May 2011]: The for new vehicles. This measure applies to all member information requested is not held by the Department states of the EU. for Transport. However, the Motor Insurance Bureau The Department for Transport is completing research (MIB) made a press release on the 22 July, 2010 in investigating whether more could be done to reduce which they state: vehicle blind spots. This may lead to further requirements “There are 23,000 people injured and 160 killed every year by for new vehicles in the future. uninsured drivers”.

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what proportion of drivers involved in (a) fatal accidents how many road traffic accidents were reported on (a) and (b) serious non-fatal accidents did not have (i) the A2 in Bexley borough, (b) the A20 in Bexley valid motor insurance and (ii) a valid MOT test certificate borough, (c) Brampton Road, Bexleyheath, (d) in each of the last three years. [53767] Okehampton Crescent, Welling, (e) Gravel Hill, Bexley, (f) Upper Wickham Lane, Welling, (g) Knee Hill, Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Abbey Wood, (h) Park View Road, Bexleyheath, (i) Transport how many road traffic accidents involving Broadway, Bexleyheath, (j) Avenue Road, Bexleyheath, drivers who did not have motoring insurance resulted (k) Pickford Lane, Bexleyheath, (l) Long Lane, in fatalities in the last three years. [53799] Bexleyheath, (m) Colyers Lane, Erith, (n) Thames Road, Crayford, (o) North End Road, Erith and (p) Mike Penning: The information requested is not held Erith Road, Bexleyheath in (i) 2009 and (ii) 2010. by the Department for Transport. However, the Motor [54846] Insurance Bureau (MIB) made a press release on 22 July 2010 in which they state: Mike Penning: The information requested is given in “There are 23,000 people injured and 160 killed every year by the following table covering reported personal injury uninsured drivers”. road accidents only. Data from 2010 will be available in late June 2011. Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Reported personal injury road accidents on selected roads: 2009 whether he has had recent discussions with the Secretary Number of of State for Health on any potential effect on the Road name accidents number of casualties requiring treatment of his proposed changes to (a) speed limit enforcement and (b) regulations (a) A2 in Bexley Borough 23 relating to the MOT vehicle test. [53782] (b) A20 in Bexley Borough 17 (c) Brampton Road, Bexleyheath 9 Mike Penning: I am not introducing changes to speed (d) Okehampton Crescent, Welling 2 limit enforcement. These are matters for local police (e) Gravel Hill, Bexley 2 forces. (f) Upper Wickham Lane, Welling 13 I expect to make an announcement soon about the (g) Knee Hill, Abbey Wood 7 timing and scope of the MOT test review. The scope (h) Park View Road, Bexleyheath 7 will include, but not be limited to, a review of MOT test (i) Broadway, Bexleyheath 14 (j), Avenue Road and Pickford Lane, 10 frequency. I have no preconceptions about the outcome 1 of a review; the aim will be to strike the right balance (k) Bexleyheath between vehicle safety and the burden imposed on (l) Long Lane, Bexleyheath 3 motorists by MOT test requirements. There will be an (m) Colyers Lane, Erith 9 opportunity for anyone with an interest to contribute to (n) Thames Road, Crayford 10 the debate. (o) North End Road, Erith 8 (p) Erith Road, Bexleyheath 14 1 Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for It is not possible to distinguish between Avenue Road and Pickford Lane Transport (1) how many road traffic accidents involving Source: drivers who did not have a driving licence in the last Transport for London three years involved drivers who had already been convicted of a motoring offence; [53794] Roads: Finance (2) how many road traffic accidents involving drivers who did not have a driving licence there were in the last Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport three years; [53795] pursuant to the contribution by the Parliamentary Under- (3) how many road traffic accidents involving drivers Secretary of State for Transport of 30 March 2011, who did not have a valid motoring insurance in the last Official Report, column 144WH, on motor sport (public three years involved drivers who had already been highways), what his most recent estimate is of the convicted of a motoring offence; [53796] proportion of public funds spent on roads that is raised (4) how many road traffic accidents involving drivers from general taxation. [53989] who did not have a driving licence resulted in fatalities in the last three years; [53797] Danny Alexander: I have been asked to reply. 1213W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1214W

Funding for roads comes from a number of different Mrs Villiers: The Independent Investment Programme sources not just general taxation. As well as funding Advisory Group (IIPAG) began its work in May 2010 from the Treasury raised from taxation, the DfT has a and its remit was expanded as part of the recent spending number of income streams such as from tolls and the review in October 2010. The IIPAG plans to report on European Union. The DfT does not attribute specific and publish the overall findings of its first year’s work revenue streams to the Highways Agency. Similarly this summer. This will include the first full results from local authorities have a number of revenue streams and its newly-acquired benchmarking role. it is not possible to say which of these they use to fund their road networks alongside the funding they receive from central Government. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Public Expenditure Statistics and Analysis sets out how much is spent on national and local roads: Human Rights: Export Controls http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pesa_2010_chapter5.pdf John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Roads: Safety and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for and Skills on the consideration given to human rights Transport what recent progress his Department has concerns in the processing of applications for export made in developing a new road safety framework; and control licences. [54826] when he expects that framework to be published. [54943] Alistair Burt: Human Rights concerns are considered Mike Penning: The Department has today published in any Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advice its Strategic Framework for Road Safety. we give to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) concerning export licence applications. In Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for response to events in the Middle East and North Africa, Transport what measures his Department plans to use the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth to assess performance against its road safety strategy. Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond [54949] (Yorks) (Mr Hague) commissioned a review of Government policy and practice with regard to the export of equipment Mike Penning: The Department has today published that might be used for internal repression, in particular a Road Safety Outcomes Framework, as a part of its crowd control goods. The FCO is leading this internal Strategic Framework for Road Safety, that it will use to review in close consultation with BIS and the Ministry assess progress in this area. of Defence. Libya: Armed Conflict Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether his Department plans to set targets for reductions in deaths and serious injuries from road Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for crashes following the expiry of the Road Safety Strategy Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which countries in 2010; and if he will make a statement. [54950] participating in the coalition to enforce UN Security Council Resolution 1973 (a) are and (b) are not Mike Penning: The Government’s approach to road contributing to the armed forces in and over Libya. safety is set out in the Strategic Framework for Road [53654] Safety, published today. Alistair Burt: 18 nations are contributing aircraft or Speed Limits maritime assets to the region under UN Security Council Resolution 1973: UK, US, France, Italy, Denmark, Spain, Belgium, Norway, Netherlands, Canada, Qatar, Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Turkey, Greece, United Arab Emirates, Sweden, Jordan, what discussions (a) he and (b) his Ministerial colleagues Bulgaria, Romania. In total, 34 nations are either providing had with representatives of (i) road safety and (ii) other or offering various kinds of support including military, organisations before issuing the new police framework allowing overflights, logistical or financial support and for dealing with drivers exceeding speed limits. [53780] humanitarian relief. Mike Penning: I have not issued or developed the new Libya: Politics and Government police framework for dealing with drivers exceeding speed limits. The advice to police forces about the use of Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for education as an alternative to prosecution in some cases Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the level of has been developed and issued by the Association of UK diplomatic representation is to the Transitional Chief Police Officers. Council of Libya in Benghazi; what roles such representatives carry out; and what estimate he has Transport for London: Finance made to the cost of such representation in the latest period for which figures are available. [55012] Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what progress has been made by the Independent Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Investment Programme Advisory Group in assessing Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member the economy and efficiency of Transport for London’s for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), appointed Christopher investment programme. [54272] Prentice as his Special Representative in Benghazi in 1215W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1216W early March 2011. John Jenkins will replace Christopher (b) Algeria and (c) Mauritania on the future status of Prentice in Benghazi shortly. The Special Representative the Saharwi people; and if he will make a statement. leads a team of diplomats, development and stabilisation [55016] advisers, defence attaches and military mentors. Their role is to monitor developments in the East of Libya Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and and to provide advice and assistance to ensure that the Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Interim Transitional National Council is able to protect for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), met the Moroccan and support the population living in areas under its Foreign Minister, Taieb Fassi Fihri, in London on control. Other governments and the United Nations 10 March and discussed a wide range of foreign policy maintain similar teams in Benghazi. We work closely issues. with them. The cost of maintaining the team in Benghazi I also discussed the issue of Western Sahara in my for their first full month was approximately £400,000. meetings with Fassi Fihri during my visit to Morocco in Osama bin Laden April 2011. I visited Algeria in April 2011 where I raised the issue Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of Western Sahara with the government of Algeria. I and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has received reiterated our commitment to the United Nations Security reports on the source of funding for the purchase and Council position, calling for a just, lasting and mutually maintenance of the compound in Abbottabad which acceptable political solution, which provides for the housed Osama bin Laden. [54941] self-determination of the people of Western Sahara. As Mauritania is a member of the Arab Maghreb Alistair Burt: It is not our practice to comment on Union, officials have regular discussions with the operational matters. Mauritanian Government about issues of regional stability The Government are working hard both at national and integration. and international level to counter terrorist financing. There are no plans to make a statement at this time. Our aim is to deprive terrorists of the financial resources and systems needed for terrorist related activity. Sri Lanka: Internally Displaced Persons HOME DEPARTMENT Asylum: Grants Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for on voter registration amongst displaced civilians in the the Home Department how much funding her Department north of Sri Lanka during recent local elections in that has allocated in grants to charities and non-governmental country; and what assessment he has made of such bodies involved in asylum matters in each of the last reports. [54700] five years. [54504]

Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to my response Damian Green: The amount of funding allocated in to the hon. Member for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) grants to charities and non-governmental bodies involved of 3 May 2011, Official Report, column 618W. in asylum matters for each of the last five years is shown in the following table. The figures for 2010-11 are provisional Western Sahara: Self-determination of States and unaudited and may be subject to revision as a result of the statutory audit of the UK Border Agency. Some Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Assisted Voluntary Returns schemes whose costs Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions are included in these figures apply to other migrants as he has had with the government of (a) Morocco, well as asylum-seekers.

£ Grant recipients Nature of grant/project 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

International Assisted Voluntary Returns 18,888,860 9,679,482 9,980,209 11,229,062 17,314,282 Organisation For Migration

Migrant One-Stop Service 263,187 247,574 399,369 388,619 346,360 Helpline Wraparound 3,795,052 3,123,226 913,373 902,553 894,265 Strategic (formerly Core) 867,203 664,752 — — — funding Alternatives To Detention — — 482,340 — —

Refugee Action One-Stop Service 2,576,205 2,693,562 3,038,858 3,145,235 2,936,548 Wraparound 977,830 622,445 839,485 855,836 805,837 Strategic (formerly Core) 539,981 553,480 — — — funding KeyWorkerPilot ————134,590 1217W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1218W

£ Grant recipients Nature of grant/project 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Refugee Strategic (formerly Core) 369,377 ———— Arrivals Project funding One-Stop Service 368,113 ————

Refugee Council Strategic (formerly Core) 2,557,235 2,813,745 1,499,247 1,528,819 1,306,238 funding One-Stop Service 3,736,228 4,138,297 5,498,936 5,531,003 5,512,447 Wraparound 2,533,282 3,171,091 1,977,156 2,006,360 1,522,107 Children’s Panel — — 1,331,584 1,097,580 793,479 Asylum Support Partnership — — — 283,252 90,230 Team Voluntary Return Project — — 56,547 65,000 6,080 Other — — 312,549 — —

Scottish One-Stop Service 777,223 795,788 1,050,835 1,075,975 1,050,414 Refugee Council Wraparound 116,272 315,909 475,758 504,418 454,005 Strategic (formerly Core) 328,129 336,332 155,000 155,000 117,328 funding

Welsh Refugee One-Stop Service 626,475 642,137 839,960 884,415 862,370 Council Wraparound 71,868 390,000 431,988 407,010 371,513 Strategic (formerly Core) 205,316 228,307 70,000 68,528 62,020 funding Note: Figures for 2010-11 are provisional, unaudited and subject to adjustment. Figures for 2009-10 are derived from the audited accounts of the UK Border Agency. Figures for 2006-09 are derived from the audited accounts of the Home Office.

Business Crime Reduction Initiative industry, policing and law enforcement to identify major opportunities for preventing crime through innovative Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for the design, technology and behavioural change. Home Department if she will take further steps to develop the Business Crime Reduction initiative in Greater Manchester Huddersfield and Kirklees. [54912] Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: It is for local areas to develop Home Department what payments her Department their own business crime reduction partnerships in order and its agencies have made to (a) Manchester College, to respond to local business crime priorities, engaging (b) Manchester College for Arts and Technology and where appropriate with other local partnerships such as (c) City College, Manchester since 1997; and for what Community Safety Partnerships and Neighbourhood purpose in each case. [54808] Policing Teams. The Home Office, through the National Retail Crime Steering Group, are looking to strengthen local partnerships including supporting their development, Damian Green: The totals of payments made by the identifying and tackling barriers to their operation, and Home Department inclusive of its Executive agencies defining minimum standards. to (a) Manchester College and (b) Manchester College for Arts and Technology since 2004 are as follows: Crime £ (a) Manchester (b) Manchester College Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for the FY College for Arts and Technology Home Department if she will discuss with representatives of (a) the Design Council and (b) other organisations 2004-05 10,817 0 with design expertise the potential of design to reduce 2005-06 17,470 0 the incidence of crime. [54914] 2006-07 13,130 0 2007-08 12,463 3,819 James Brokenshire: As the Government made clear in 2008-09 14,102 0 A New Approach to Fighting Crime (March 2011), we 2009-10 42,350 0 recognise the important role that design has to play in 2010-11 37,576 0 preventing crime and are establishing a new forum for innovation in crime prevention that will bring together The Department has not made payments to (c) City experts drawn from science, design, business and College, Manchester in the period from 2004. 1219W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1220W

Information on any payments to the colleges prior to 2009-10 2010-11 2004 could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Of which Of which The purpose of the payments in each case was for the the tuition, training or examination fees for Home Office following following staff. In the case of (a) for Chartered Institute of have have Personnel and Development fees and (b) for fees for Reasonable positive Reasonable positive the Certificate in Training Practice under the Qualifications grounds: conclusive grounds: conclusive Potential decisions: Potential decisions: and Curriculum Framework. victims of Victims of victims of Victims of human human human human Human Trafficking trafficking trafficking trafficking trafficking Georgia — — 1 — Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Ghana 1 1 6 1 Home Department how many instances of human Guinea 1 — 2 1 trafficking for sexual purposes were detected in each of Hungary — — 3 3 the last three years; from which countries the persons India 1 — 1 1 had been trafficked; and how many prosecutions resulting Iran — — 1 1 in a conviction there were as a result. [53453] Ivory Coast 1 1 — — Kazakhstan 1 — — Damian Green: The National Referral Mechanism (NRM) started on the 1 April 2009 and data are only Kenya2—73 available from this date onwards. Kosovo——11 At 3 May 2011 the number of decisions relating to Latvia — — 2 2 referrals for human trafficking for sexual exploitation Liberia 2 2 — — was as follows: Lithuania 3 3 8 6 Malawi — — 1 1 Potential victims of Moldova 1 1 1 1 human trafficking for Confirmed victims Nigeria 25 13 25 4 sexual exploitation of human trafficking Pakistan 2 — 1 — (reasonable grounds (positive conclusive Poland 3 1 2 1 Period decision) decisions) Romania 12 9 10 9 2010-11 169 72 Russia 1 — 2 — 2009-10 187 114 Senegal 2 1 3 — Serbia — — 1 — The number of potential victims of trafficking for Sierra Leone 11 6 7 3 sexual exploitation that have been referred to the NRM since April 2009 broken down by nationality is as Slovakia 2 1 2 — follows: Somalia 1 — 4 2 South Africa 7 5 1 1 2009-10 2010-11 Tajikistan — — 1 — Thailand 2 — 4 1 Of which Of which the the Trinidad and 1 1—— following following Tobago have have Uganda 5 1 14 8 Reasonable positive Reasonable positive UK 30 29 12 10 grounds: conclusive grounds: conclusive Ukraine — — 1 — Potential decisions: Potential decisions: victims of Victims of victims of Victims of Vietnam 2 — 14 4 human human human human Zambia 1 1 1 — trafficking trafficking trafficking trafficking Zimbabwe 5 2 1 — Albania 11 9 7 2 Grand total 187 114 169 72 Angola 2 — — — Figures from the UK Human Trafficking Centre for Bangladesh 2 2 1 — convictions for trafficking for sexual exploitation are set Belarus 1 1 — — out in the following table. These figures cover the period Bolivia — — 1 1 up to the end of January 2011. Brazil 2 2 — — The figures do not include a number of trafficking Burundi 1 1 — — cases still pending. Cambodia — — 1 1 Cameroon 6 6 2 — Convictions not for Chile 1 1 — — Convictions including trafficking but China 34 12 11 2 trafficking offences related to the Czech 2211 (and in some cases original trafficking Republic additional offences) offence Democratic 2008 134 34 Republic of ——11 2009 33 24 the Congo 2010 17 16 Eritrea — — 1 — 2011 2 2 Gambia — — 3 — 1 Three of these convictions were for conspiracy to traffick 1221W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1222W

Lord Wasserman resources her Department has allocated for security at the Royal wedding. [52739] Mr Love: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if she will place in the Library a copy Nick Herbert: Funding and resources for security at of each submission made to her by Lord Wasserman in the royal wedding were met from Metropolitan Police his capacity as adviser on policy and criminal parties; Service budgets. The costings of policing the event are [52342] not available at present and will be released by the Metropolitan Police Service in due course. (2) what the terms of reference are for the work of Lord Wasserman in her Department; [52343] Police: Assaults (3) what meetings Ministers in her Department have had with Lord Wasserman since his appointment; and Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the if she will place in the Library a copy of the minutes of Home Department how many days sickness after an each meeting; [52344] assault were taken by police officers in each police force (4) what written correspondence her Department has in England and Wales in each year since 1997; and what received from (a) Lord Wasserman and (b) the Gordon the (a) average number of days lost per police officer Wasserman Group since his appointment; on what date following an assault and (b) cost was to each such force each items was received; and if she will publish each in each such year. [53435] item of correspondence. [52352] Nick Herbert: The data provided here are a Nick Herbert: Lord Wasserman is not employed by supplementary series collected on behalf and released the Home Office and is appointed in an unpaid capacity. with the approval of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of He reports directly to Ministers and advises on crime, Constabulary (HMIC). These data are normally used policing and criminal justice matters. Lord Wasserman for inspection purposes only. has regular meetings with Ministers and officials in his It is therefore important to note that these provisional capacity as advisor in order to help formulate and shape data have not undergone the usual data quality assurance Government policy. Any documentation arising out of practices (including validation with individual police this would be for that purpose, in line with his role. forces) and are therefore supplied for information purposes only. Monarchy: Marriage The requested data have been collected since 2002-03 and are given in the table. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the For parts (a) and (b), the requested information is Home Department how much (a) funding and (b) not collected centrally.

Number of police officer working days lost due to assaults1: 2002-03 to 2009-10 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Avon and Somerset 687 793 464 * 21 566 751 * Bedfordshire 213 387 112 184 178 219 62 52 Cambridgeshire 65 220 194 284 62 120 25 196 Cheshire 431 100 755 575 112 75 112 215 Cleveland *****7710868 Cumbria 11 11 46 150 * * 341 570 Derbyshire 590 906 262 351 236 143 281 374 Devon and Cornwall 655 324 136 990 334 188 31 230 Dorset 81 73****** Durham 241 169 101 28 * 138 18 64 Dyfed-Powys * * 274 93 97 154 161 81 Essex 478 294 305 301 248 252 189 397 Gloucestershire 115 244 182 199 165 47 16 244 Greater Manchester * * 1,702 1,127 94 832 2,074 * Gwent 175 304 426 417 * 122 * 157 Hampshire 919 733 278 302 252 191 * * Hertfordshire 433 328 134 85 186 * * * Humberside 385 390 133 156 * * 126 * Kent 433 638 412 437 748 431 400 594 Lancashire 2,484 983 1,330 1,095 603 596 472 579 Leicestershire * * * 193 274 * 177 97 Lincolnshire 201 * 95 88 211 344 233 166 London, City of 48 98 44 43 13 2 44 4 Merseyside 267 143 195 184 0 407 534 411 Metropolitan Police * 5,043 3,401 18,577 7,647 5,848 6,388 5,581 Norfolk 3 84 272 41 67 162 65 155 Northamptonshire 54 4 20 4 29 6 20 25 Northumbria 578 664 368 290 905 1,075 330 2,039 1223W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1224W

Number of police officer working days lost due to assaults1: 2002-03 to 2009-10 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

North Wales * * 169 158 323 133 * 53 North Yorkshire * * 102 * 137 * * * Nottinghamshire 228 * 303 145 * 179 193 299 South Wales 576 637 ****87216 South Yorkshire * 249 183 160 104 69 209 237 Staffordshire 435 154 446 285 299 174 115 186 Suffolk 277 67 26 5 213 208 240 210 Surrey 469 525 98 32 20 69 14 154 Sussex 342 504 544 334 109 276 329 99 Thames Valley 48 312 159 * * * 168 * Warwickshire 30 39 8 63 715 24 29 60 West Mercia 251 290 592 467 446 354 322 395 West Midlands 2,318 * 1,502 1,313 1,419 1,166 1,200 1,198 West Yorkshire 1,296 2,025 1,383 974 725 691 1,048 635 Wiltshire 37 18 152 37***28 * = Data not available. Force was not able to supply data at the time of collection. 1 Provisional data taken from a supplementary series collected on behalf of HMIC and used for inspection purposes only. Data has not undergone usual quality assurance practices (including validation with individual police forces) and are therefore supplied for information purposes only.

Police: Manpower Nick Herbert: Available data relates to 2006-07 to 2009-10 and are given in tables. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many and what proportion of The number of transfers between forces has been police officers left the police service in each police force separately identified as these officers, while leaving individual area (a) within two to five years, (b) within five to police forces, have not left the police service. 10 years and (c) after more than 10 years of joining in each year since 2007. [53391]

Number of police officers leaving1 the force (with the number of transfers separately identified) and the percentage of total police officer leavers that this figure represents, from 2006-07 to 2009-10 (a) Officers leaving with two to less than five years’ service 2006-07 2007-08 Number of Number of Number of Number of transfers police officers Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of (included as leaving the force police officers (included as leaving the force police officers part of overall with two to less leaving with two part of overall with two to less leaving with two officers leaving than five years’ to less than five officers leaving than five years’ to less than five Police force area the service) service years’ service the service service years’ service

Avon and Somerset 16 28 17 16 30 14 Bedfordshire 2 12 16 15 26 26 Cambridgeshire 6 10 11 14 20 19 Cheshire2 4111061311 Cleveland 3 8 10588 Cumbria 1 9 18 5 9 12 Derbyshire 3 10 7 4 11 9 DevonandCornwall3865129 Dorset 47641010 Durham1711498 Dyfed-Powys 6 6 13 2 7 12 Essex 0217274317 Gloucestershire 3 9 12 9 12 14 Greater Manchester 32 76 15 30 64 14 Gwent 8 12 18 3 24 27 Hampshire 14 19 9 21 35 14 Hertfordshire 24 45 25 18 29 17 Humberside 6 17 14 6 18 16 Kent 14 27 12 3 12 6 Lancashire 4 20 11 3 20 11 Leicestershire 7 17 12 4 19 14 Lincolnshire31012455 London, City of 6 8 12358 Merseyside 4 19 7 10 17 8 1225W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1226W

Number of police officers leaving1 the force (with the number of transfers separately identified) and the percentage of total police officer leavers that this figure represents, from 2006-07 to 2009-10 (a) Officers leaving with two to less than five years’ service 2006-07 2007-08 Number of Number of Number of Number of transfers police officers Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of (included as leaving the force police officers (included as leaving the force police officers part of overall with two to less leaving with two part of overall with two to less leaving with two officers leaving than five years’ to less than five officers leaving than five years’ to less than five Police force area the service) service years’ service the service service years’ service

Metropolitan Police 86 226 13 60 173 12 Norfolk277578 Northamptonshire 8 13 13 16 26 25 Northumbria 3 15 8 7 19 9 North Wales 6 13 15 4 10 11 North Yorkshire 6 15 15 5 12 13 Nottinghamshire 7 15 10 12 18 15 South Wales 0841128 South Yorkshire 8 18 9 8 25 14 Staffordshire61311077 Suffolk 4 9 17 4 12 22 Surrey 193217101711 Sussex 123215385922 Thames Valley 46 77 26 69 92 27 Warwickshire71115247 West Mercia 4 16 11 1 10 8 West Midlands 26 65 13 29 49 10 WestYorkshire163811185016 Wiltshire 1 6 10023 Total 441 1045 13 510 1,062 13

2008-09 2009-10 Number of transfers Number of Number of Number of (included as police officers Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of part of overall leaving the police officers (included as part leaving the police officers officers force with two leaving with two of overall officers force with two leaving with two leaving the to less than five to less than five leaving the to less than five to less than five Police force area service) years’ service years’ service service) years’ service years’ service

Avon and Somerset 12 22 13 5 13 8 Bedfordshire 9 14 15 4 7 11 Cambridgeshire 8 16 16 1 4 6 Cheshire2 —— — ——— Cleveland 1 7 7 6 7 8 Cumbria 3 10 14 0 3 5 Derbyshire 0 12 11 4 14 12 Devon and Cornwall 9 13 8 5 7 6 Dorset 2 4 5 2 5 5 Durham 1 1 1 2 3 4 Dyfed-Powys 3 5 9 1 1 2 Essex 374920264017 Gloucestershire 6 7 10 4 6 9 Greater Manchester 19 37 10 6 12 4 Gwent 2 11 13 3 6 9 Hampshire 13 25 10 16 23 9 Hertfordshire 17 27 18 10 12 9 Humberside 6 22 16 1 5 5 Kent 12 28 15 4 8 5 Lancashire 5 9 6 9 17 11 Leicestershire 6 11 10 7 13 12 Lincolnshire 2 2 3 7 10 10 London, City of 3 4 6 3 7 13 Merseyside 7 19 7 3 8 3 Metropolitan Police 37 109 8 37 119 9 1227W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1228W

2008-09 2009-10 Number of transfers Number of Number of Number of (included as police officers Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of part of overall leaving the police officers (included as part leaving the police officers officers force with two leaving with two of overall officers force with two leaving with two leaving the to less than five to less than five leaving the to less than five to less than five Police force area service) years’ service years’ service service) years’ service years’ service

Norfolk 3 6 5 2 10 12 Northamptonshire 11 17 19 3 6 11 Northumbria 0 16 8 1 8 5 North Wales 2 5 7 2 8 16 North Yorkshire 10 20 19 3 3 3 Nottinghamshire 10 17 12 2 8 7 South Wales 0 7 4 0 5 3 South Yorkshire 11 19 10 1 10 6 Staffordshire 1 6 5 1 3 3 Suffolk 4 8 9 9 14 14 Surrey 7 21 12 6 18 15 Sussex 21 37 16 6 16 9 Thames Valley 50 66 25 21 35 14 Warwickshire 10 13 21 1 4 6 West Mercia 12 23 15 7 14 9 West Midlands 27 49 10 13 31 7 West Yorkshire 18 44 13 7 19 6 Wiltshire 5 13 15 1 5 8 Total 422 851 11 252 567 8

(b) Officers leaving with five to less than 10 years’ service 2006-07 2007-08 Number of transfers Number of Number of Number of (included as police officers Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of part of overall leaving the police officers (included as leaving the force police officers officers force with five leaving with five part of overall with five to less leaving with five leaving the to less than10 to less than 10 officers leaving than 10 years’ to less than 10 Police force area service) years’ service years’ service the service) service years’ service

Avon and Somerset 7 13 8 12 23 11 Bedfordshire 5 10 14 13 15 15 Cambridgeshire 1 5 6 18 24 23 Cheshire2 598365 Cleveland 1 7 9 2 8 8 Cumbria 1 3 6 1 3 4 Derbyshire 3 15 11 0 16 13 Devon and Cornwall 6 13 10 5 13 9 Dorset 4 8 7 2 6 6 Durham 5 8 13 10 17 15 Dyfed-Powys 2 2 4 5 8 14 Essex 0 11 4 28 36 14 Gloucestershire 1 6 8 8 12 14 Greater Manchester 25 69 14 30 80 17 Gwent269067 Hampshire 8 17 8 13 21 9 Hertfordshire 22 30 17 17 30 18 Humberside 3 7 6 2 10 9 Kent 12 26 11 13 26 13 Lancashire 3 7 4 1 7 4 Leicestershire 7 15 11 10 21 15 Lincolnshire 4 6 7 4 8 9 London, City of 8 10 15 10 19 29 Merseyside 3 11 4 8 16 7 Metropolitan Police 90 167 10 105 204 14 Norfolk 1 4 4 1 3 4 Northamptonshire 6 8 8 9 12 12 1229W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1230W

(b) Officers leaving with five to less than 10 years’ service 2006-07 2007-08 Number of transfers Number of Number of Number of (included as police officers Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of part of overall leaving the police officers (included as leaving the force police officers officers force with five leaving with five part of overall with five to less leaving with five leaving the to less than10 to less than 10 officers leaving than 10 years’ to less than 10 Police force area service) years’ service years’ service the service) service years’ service

Northumbria 4 16 9 1 16 7 North Wales 6 11 13 3 7 7 North Yorkshire 2 10 10 4 9 10 Nottinghamshire 11 20 14 13 23 19 South Wales 1 16 8 0 6 4 South Yorkshire 19 26 13 9 16 9 Staffordshire 6 10 8 0 7 7 Suffolk 4 6 11 0 8 15 Surrey223719112415 Sussex122110294215 Thames Valley 25 38 13 35 48 14 Warwickshire 4 8 11 8 11 19 West Mercia 9 18 12 6 12 10 West Midlands 36 63 13 36 61 13 West Yorkshire 2 12 3 6 20 6 Wiltshire 1 10 16 3 12 17 Total 399 815 10 494 972 12

2008-09 2009-10 Number of transfers Number of Number of Number of (included as police officers Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of part of overall leaving the police officers (included as part leaving the force police officers officers force with five leaving with five of overall with five to less leaving with five leaving the to less than 10 to less than 10 officers leaving than 10 years’ to less than 10 Police force area service) years’ service years’ service the service) service years’ service

Avon and Somerset 0 27 16 12 24 15 Bedfordshire 14 18 20 5 8 12 Cambridgeshire 15 19 19 7 14 19 Cheshire2 —————— Cleveland 5 14 15 3 10 12 Cumbria 2 4 6069 Derbyshire 5 15 13 3 11 9 Devon and Cornwall 8 17 11 1 6 5 Dorset 3 7 9255 Durham 2 8 9 5 9 11 Dyfed-Powys 2 4 7 4 6 10 Essex243615192410 Gloucestershire 5 7 10 4 8 12 Greater Manchester 28 50 13 15 39 12 Gwent 1 10 12 3 5 8 Hampshire 14 22 9 11 23 9 Hertfordshire 35 49 34 14 24 18 Humberside 7 10 7177 Kent 18 33 18 7 20 12 Lancashire 3 13 9296 Leicestershire 9 21 18 8 14 13 Lincolnshire 3 9 12 4 11 11 London, City of 5 8 11 6 7 13 Merseyside 3 16 6 5 14 6 Metropolitan Police 119 237 16 56 179 14 Norfolk 7 19 17 2 8 10 Northamptonshire 6 10 11 1 6 11 Northumbria 2 14 7185 North Wales 2 12 18 0 6 12 1231W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1232W

2008-09 2009-10 Number of transfers Number of Number of Number of (included as police officers Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of part of overall leaving the police officers (included as part leaving the force police officers officers force with five leaving with five of overall with five to less leaving with five leaving the to less than 10 to less than 10 officers leaving than 10 years’ to less than 10 Police force area service) years’ service years’ service the service) service years’ service

North Yorkshire 7 13 12 3 15 17 Nottinghamshire 10 22 16 11 21 19 South Wales 0 18 9 0 13 9 South Yorkshire 14 18 10 7 15 10 Staffordshire4109477 Suffolk 3 9 10 3 12 12 Surrey243722182824 Sussex 24 33 14 8 13 7 Thames Valley 34 47 18 20 35 14 Warwickshire 4 7 11 5 12 18 West Mercia 7 20 13 9 17 11 West Midlands 30 54 11 15 41 9 West Yorkshire 8 35 11 8 18 6 Wiltshire 1 10 12 4 9 15 Total 517 1,042 14 316 767 11

(c) Officers leaving with 10 years’ or more service 2006-07 2007-08 Number of Number of Number of transfers police officers Percentage of transfers Number of Percentage of (included as part leaving the police officers (included as police officers police officers of overall officers force with 10 leaving with 10 part of overall leaving the force leaving with 10 leaving the years’ or more years’ or more officers leaving with 10 years’ years’ or more Police force area service) service years service the service. or more service years service

Avon and Somerset 9 110 68 9 123 59 Bedfordshire 8 40 54 8 45 45 Cambridgeshire 11 63 70 17 54 51 Cheshire2 5 78 68 7 91 76 Cleveland 7 46 60 9 73 69 Cumbria 0 31 62 8 54 74 Derbyshire 2 106 76 4 77 62 Devon and Cornwall 9 91 69 10 108 77 Dorset 1 81 73 2 71 72 Durham 3 40 63 6 87 76 Dyfed-Powys 2 37 77 0 40 68 Essex 0 210 74 42 146 58 Gloucestershire 1 57 75 5 59 69 Greater Manchester 30 328 67 25 303 65 Gwent 2 39 60 3 52 58 Hampshire 13 154 73 19 173 71 Hertfordshire 22 76 42 29 88 51 Humberside 5 81 67 2 63 55 Kent 14 162 71 11 156 76 Lancashire 10 134 76 12 141 81 Leicestershire 16 99 71 4 89 64 Lincolnshire 6 58 72 5 74 81 London, City of 10 47 70 12 39 60 Merseyside 3 199 76 4 175 79 Metropolitan Police 95 1,226 72 99 986 70 Norfolk 9 77 77 9 69 82 Northamptonshire 19 70 67 20 52 50 Northumbria 3 140 76 7 172 80 North Wales 2 55 63 2 67 71 North Yorkshire 3 61 59 9 57 62 Nottinghamshire 6 106 72 13 79 64 South Wales 1 155 82 0 125 81 1233W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1234W

(c) Officers leaving with 10 years’ or more service 2006-07 2007-08 Number of Number of Number of transfers police officers Percentage of transfers Number of Percentage of (included as part leaving the police officers (included as police officers police officers of overall officers force with 10 leaving with 10 part of overall leaving the force leaving with 10 leaving the years’ or more years’ or more officers leaving with 10 years’ years’ or more Police force area service) service years service the service. or more service years service

South Yorkshire 9 127 65 13 126 69 Staffordshire 8 87 71 7 84 80 Suffolk 3 36 67 1 28 52 Surrey 237037138756 Sussex 20 128 59 38 148 54 Thames Valley 16 150 51 27 177 52 Warwickshire 1 49 65 3 30 51 West Mercia 13 99 68 1 88 70 West Midlands 23 325 65 25 309 66 West Yorkshire 15 253 73 7 195 62 Wiltshire 2 40 65 1 51 72 Total 460 5,621 68 548 5,311 66

2008-09 2009-10 Number of Number of Number of transfers Number of police Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of (included as part officers leaving police officers (included as leaving the police officers of overall officers the force with 10 leaving with 10 part of overall force with 10 leaving with 10 leaving the years’ or more years’ or more officers leaving years’ or more years’ or more Police force area service) service years service the service) service years service

Avon and Somerset 4 109 66 6 117 72 Bedfordshire 11 47 52 9 45 69 Cambridgeshire 15 60 59 5 43 60 Cheshire2 — ————— Cleveland 2 67 71 2 67 78 Cumbria 2 53 74 2 49 75 Derbyshire 2 71 63 5 87 72 Devon and Cornwall 11 115 75 7 93 85 Dorset 5 55 72 1 81 83 Durham 9 83 89 3 73 86 Dyfed-Powys 3 44 79 2 46 78 Essex 28 141 57 27 145 63 Gloucestershire 7 52 72 2 48 72 Greater Manchester 20 270 70 13 261 79 Gwent 0 54 63 4 52 81 Hampshire 19 177 73 13 184 75 Hertfordshire 17 56 38 21 75 55 Humberside 4 91 66 3 79 83 Kent 13 122 66 8 129 76 Lancashire 7 117 78 2 125 80 Leicestershire 5 72 63 8 70 65 Lincolnshire 4 64 84 2 72 74 London, City of 20 57 81 9 35 66 Merseyside 10 210 81 10 207 86 Metropolitan Police 63 1,027 71 37 842 66 Norfolk 4 73 66 1 51 61 Northamptonshire 8 52 58 4 36 68 Northumbria 8 151 76 4 135 86 North Wales 1 47 69 1 32 65 North Yorkshire 8 63 59 5 63 72 Nottinghamshire 13 97 69 5 78 70 South Wales 1 165 85 1 126 86 South Yorkshire 13 136 73 10 130 83 Staffordshire118577109590 Suffolk 5 61 71 8 56 57 Surrey 21 91 53 7 58 50 Sussex 43 140 60 14 104 57 1235W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1236W

2008-09 2009-10 Number of Number of Number of transfers Number of police Percentage of transfers police officers Percentage of (included as part officers leaving police officers (included as leaving the police officers of overall officers the force with 10 leaving with 10 part of overall force with 10 leaving with 10 leaving the years’ or more years’ or more officers leaving years’ or more years’ or more Police force area service) service years service the service) service years service

Thames Valley 21 127 48 8 166 64 Warwickshire 8 39 64 1 49 75 West Mercia 0 105 68 7 120 76 West Midlands 28 314 67 13 320 74 West Yorkshire 4 212 64 15 236 76 Wiltshire 0 48 56 8 41 69 Total 478 5,220 68 323 4,921 72 1 Leaving figures include police officers leaving the force within the designated range of years of joining or re-joining the service, due to dismissals (including requirement to resign), voluntary resignations, medical retirements, ordinary retirements. 2 Data for Cheshire was not available in 2008-09 and 2009-10.

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS therefore, cannot be provided at this time. When contracts have been signed; further information, including details Clergy: Gender of the prime contractors and their subcontractors will be published on the Contracts Finder website as part of Miss McIntosh: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, the ongoing commitment to the Transparency agenda. representing the Church Commissioners, what the ratio of male to female clergy is in the Church of England; However, I can tell you that there are 57 third sector and if he will make a statement. [55344] organisations within the supply chains of the preferred bidders within the Contract Package Area covering Tony Baldry: The Church of England has seen a the constituencies you are inquiring about. Nationally substantial change in the last 10 years to the gender there are over 300 first tier third sector organisations. In balance of its clergy. The figures from 2009 are the most addition, there are numerous organisations providing recent figures available and show a sizeable increase in ad-hoc support as customer requirements dictate. women clergy when compared to figures from 1994. Similar movement in the gender balance of Anglican Chaplains can also be seen when comparing the figures Incapacity Benefit available from 1998 and 2009. The following figures collected by the Church of Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work England include all stipendiary clergy, self supporting and Pensions how many people in each London borough ministers, Diocesan bishops, Suffragan bishops, Arch- whose primary diagnosis was obesity claimed incapacity Deacons, Deans and other Cathedral Clergy. benefit in each of the last five years for which figures are In 1994—90% of clergy were men and 10% were women available; what proportion of the total expenditure on In 2009—71% of clergy were men and 29% were women incapacity benefit in each borough was accounted for Chaplains in the Church of England by people suffering from obesity in each year; and how The following figures collected by the Church of much was spent on disability pensions for people diagnosed England include all armed forces chaplains, prison chaplains, with obesity in each of the last five years for which hospital chaplains, education chaplains and other chaplains figures are available. [53412] in workplace or industrial ministry. In 1998—85% of Chaplains were men and 15 % were women Chris Grayling: Due to the small numbers of incapacity In 2009—78% of Chaplains were men and 22% were women benefit/severe disablement allowance cases with a main condition of obesity in the London boroughs, it is not possible to provide a reliable estimate of the expenditure on this condition. WORK AND PENSIONS Similarly, the disability living allowance figures are Employment Schemes derived from a 5% sample, and are subject to sampling variability, so a reliable estimate of expenditure cannot John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for be provided. Work and Pensions what proportion of the sub-contractor The information on how many people in each London business his Department estimates has been awarded to borough whose primary diagnosis was obesity claimed charities and voluntary sector organisations as part of incapacity benefit/severe disability allowance in each of the Work Programme in (a) Glasgow North West the last five years is as follows: constituency, (b) Glasgow city, (c) Scotland and (d) Incapacity benefit/severe disability allowance recipients with a [52741] nationally. diagnosis of obesity by each London borough. Chris Grayling: The Work Programme competition is As at August each year: still under way with post tender discussions being 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 undertaken with preferred bidders. Contracts have not City of ————— yet been signed. The information you have requested, London 1237W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1238W

Incapacity benefit/severe disability allowance recipients with a Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work diagnosis of obesity by each London borough. and Pensions what estimate he has made of how many As at August each year: and what proportion of people eligible for but not 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 receiving (a) pension credit, (b) incapacity benefit, (c) Barking 10 10 10 10 10 jobseeker’s allowance and (d) council tax benefit are and (i) living below the 60 per cent. relative poverty line and Dagenham (ii) in each income decile. [53414] Barnet 10 10 10 10 10 Bexley 10 10 10 10 — Brent1010101010Chris Grayling: The latest estimates of unclaimed Bromley—10101010benefits and take-up rates in Great Britain are available Camden2020102010in the National Statistics report Income Related Benefits: Croydon 20 20 20 20 10 Estimates of Take-Up in 2008-09 published at: Ealing 20 20 20 20 10 http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=irb Enfield 10 20 20 20 20 Greenwich—10101010The total estimated numbers of entitled non-recipients Hackney3020202020(ENRs) of the income related benefits in question for Hammersmith 10 10 10 10 10 2008-09 are shown in the following table. The estimates and Fulham are presented as ranges to account for uncertainty arising Haringey1020202010from sampling variation and bias in the data. Harrow 10 10 10 10 10 Havering ————— Entitled non-recipients Hillingdon 10 10 10 10 10 Thousand Hounslow 10 20 10 10 10 Lower Upper Islington 10 10 20 20 10 Kensington 10 10 10 10 — (a) Pension credit 980 1,600 and Chelsea (c) Jobseekers allowance 570 940 Kingston ————— (income based) upon (d) Council tax benefit 2,130 2,930 Thames Source: Lambeth 20 20 20 20 10 Income Related Benefits Estimates of Take-Up 2008-09 Lewisham 10 10 10 10 10 Merton —————It is not possible to present estimated numbers of Newham 20 20 20 20 20 ENRs according to their position in the income distribution Redbridge 10 10 10 — 10 since such estimates would not have been corrected for Richmond ——101010the sampling variation and bias described above. However, upon we are able to show the percentages of ENRs that fall Thames into different categories. Southwark 20 20 20 20 20 Sutton—————The following table shows the proportion of ENRs Tower 10 10 20 20 10 who are in households below 60% of contemporary Hamlets median income. These analyses have previously been Waltham 10 10 10 10 10 published as National Statistics. Both the after housing Forest cost and before housing cost measures are shown for Wandsworth 10 10 10 10 10 2008-09. City of 20 10 20 10 10 Westminster Percentage Notes: (c) 1. Data are rounded to the nearest 10. Jobseekers 2. To qualify for incapacity benefit (IB), claimants have to undertake (a) allowance (d) a medical assessment of incapacity for work called a personal Pension (income Council tax capability assessment: Under the employment and support Benefit credit based) benefit allowance (ESA) regime, new claimants have to undergo the work capability assessment. From April 2011 incapacity benefit recipients Proportion of ENR 67 62 58 will begin also to undertake this assessment. The medical condition below 60% median recorded on the claim form does not itself confer entitlement to BHC incapacity benefit or employment and support allowance. So, for Proportion of ENR 56 73 58 example, a decision on entitlement for a customer claiming below 60% median incapacity benefit on the basis of “obesity” would be based on their AHC ability to carry out the range of activities related to physical and Source: mental function, assessed by the personal capability assessment/ Income Related Benefits Estimates of Take-Up 2008-09 work capability assessment. 3. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment and support allowance in October 2008. The following table shows the percentage of ENRs 4. The Great Britain figure for those claiming ESA with a diagnosis by decile of equivalised households income. Both the of obesity is 230 therefore analysis by each London borough is not after housing cost and before housing cost measures are appropriate. 5. ‘—’ denotes nil or negligible. shown. The table is based on three years’ data (2006-07, Source: 2007-08 and 2008-09). Figures may not sum due to DWP Information Directorate 100% WPLS. rounding. 1239W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1240W

Decile: Bottom 23456789TopTotal

BHC Pensioncredit4625117532100100 Jobseekers allowance 541096543332100 (income based) Council tax benefit 39 25 17 9521100100

AHC Pensioncredit27242312543110100 Jobseekers allowance 551476443332100 (income based) Council tax benefit 32 21 17 14 942100100 Source: Derived from Income Related Benefits Estimates of Take-Up 2008-09 combined with Households Below Average Income 2008-09

There is no estimate available of those who are entitled the Executive Team, whose members report directly to to but not receiving incapacity benefit and jobseekers the Permanent Secretary, which will come into effect on allowance (contributions based) because it is not possible 1 October 2011. to identify cases that meet the conditions from survey Work is now under way to determine the rest of the data. organisational design, including the respective Industrial Health and Safety: Chandler’s Wharf responsibilities of senior management of the front line and in the corporate centre. Further details will be Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Work announced once the work is further advanced. The and Pensions what action the Health and Safety Executive Government are, of course, committed to ensuring that has taken following the collapse of a crane at Chandler’s constituency queries continue to be handled effectively. Wharf in Liverpool on 6 July 2009; and if he will make Jobseeker’s Allowance: Appeals a statement. [54913]

Chris Grayling: Inspectors from the Health and Safety Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Executive have concluded their investigation into the and Pensions how many and what proportion of incident and have initiated legal proceedings against jobseeker’s allowance claimants in (a) Chesterfield two companies, Bowmer and Kirkland Ltd and Bingham constituency, (b) Derbyshire and (c) the UK were Davies Ltd. They are due to appear in court on 19 May sanctioned in (i) the last 12 months and (ii) each of the 2011. last five years; how many such claimants appealed; and Jobcentre Plus: Reorganisation how many such appeals were successful. [52827]

Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: The available information has been and Pensions what the future (a) relationship and (b) placed in the Library. status of Jobcentre Plus will be in relation to his Department Medical Examinations: Complaints after the reorganisation of senior management responsibilities within and between his Department and Jobcentre Plus; and what effect the reorganisation will Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for have on (i) co-ordination, (ii) handling of individual Work and Pensions how many complaints relating to constituency queries, (iii) the responsibility of Ministers employment and support allowance medical assessments within his Department and (iv) Jobcentre Plus management conducted by Atos Healthcare were recorded by his decision-making; and if he will make a statement. Department in each quarter since October 2008; and [54829] what the most common complaints were. [53724] Chris Grayling: The Government’s Welfare Reform Chris Grayling: Complaints statistics relating to Programme aims to transform the effectiveness of the employment and support allowance assessments are regime for helping people find work. The Work Programme not held at a national level by the Department however will put in place, starting next month, innovative support the number of complaints received by Atos Healthcare for the hardest to help, with, payment by results; and since October 2008 is shown in the following table. the plan for Universal Credit, ensuring work always pays, will bring together provision currently separated ESA complaints quarter ending: Number between DWP, HMRC and local government; covering November 2008 0 both people in and out of work. February 2009 38 At the same time, the resources for the corporate May 2009 239 centre of the Department will reduce by 40% over this August 2009 562 Parliament. November 2009 702 In this context, the Department is reviewing its structure February 2010 631 and senior management responsibilities, to ensure the May 2010 754 reform programme and savings are delivered safely. An August 2010 748 initial announcement has been made about the roles of 1241W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1242W

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work ESA complaints quarter ending: Number and Pensions how many local entrepreneur mentors are November 2010 818 supporting the New Enterprise Allowance in Wales; February 2011 554 and whether any minimum level of expertise or qualifications is required to be recognised as a local During the most recent quarter ending February entrepreneur mentor. [54923] 2011, 118,854 ESA medical assessments were completed and 554 complaints received which equates to 0.47% of Chris Grayling: The new enterprise allowance will be all assessments completed. available in Wales from the end of June 2011. We are The most common complaint in the latest quarter currently inviting applications from organisations interested relates to the content of the medical assessment—some in delivering the mentoring support element of the new 229 complaints or 0.19% of all ESA assessments completed. enterprise allowance. Content of assessment includes such issues as the taking We expect new enterprise allowance mentors to have of customer history and the assessment process. the business experience and soft skills needed to support our customers to prepare for self employment and Members: Correspondence develop a viable business plan that demonstrates potential for growth. Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when he plans to reply to the letter of 2 August Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2010 from a constituent of the hon. Member for Stretford and Pensions when he expects the New Enterprise and Urmston, Mr Charlie Donegan. [54388] Allowance scheme to be introduced in Aberconwy constituency. [54928] Chris Grayling: A reply was sent to the hon. Member on behalf of her constituent on 21 January 2011. A Chris Grayling: We have begun rolling out the New further reply was sent to Mr Donegan on 6 May 2011. Enterprise Allowance and it will be available in Wales from the end of June 2011. New Enterprise Allowance Personal Injury: Compensation Recovery Unit Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when he expects the New Enterprise Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Allowance Scheme to be rolled out in Islwyn constituency. and Pensions how much was recovered by the [54408] Compensation Recovery Unit in respect of each type of Chris Grayling: We have begun rolling out the new personal injury claim in each of the last three years; and enterprise allowance and it will be available in Wales how many cases this represents for each case type. from the end of June 2011. [54456]

Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: The information is in the following and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number tables: of people in Islwyn constituency who will be eligible Amount and volume of claims recovered 1 April 2008 to for the New Enterprise Allowance Scheme. [54409] 31 March 2009 Amount recovered Chris Grayling: Customers are eligible for new enterprise Case type (£ million) Volumes allowance after they have been on jobseeker’s allowance Clinical Negligence 9.70 983 for six months or more and until they are referred to the Employer 81.0 15,541 Work programme. In March 2011 there were 260 JSA Motor 37.9 9,140 claimants meeting this eligibility condition in Islwyn. Other 0.8 141 Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Public 8.7 2,266 and Pensions whether he plans to extend the New Liability not known 0.05 12 Enterprise Allowance Scheme to groups other than Amount and volume of claims recovered 1 April 2009 to those who have been on jobseekers’ allowance for more 31 March 2010 than six months. [54410] Amount recovered Case type (£ million) Volumes Chris Grayling: Currently there are no plans to extend the New Enterprise Allowance to other groups however Clinical Negligence 9.6 1,148 we will continue to monitor the position as rollout Employer 96.5 17,322 progresses. Motor 38.3 9,784 Other 0.8 148 Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Public 9.5 2,469 and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number Liability not known 0.2 18 of new businesses to be created under the New Amount and volume of claims recovered 1 April 2010 to [54411] Enterprise Allowance Scheme. 31 March 2011 Amount recovered Chris Grayling: The New Enterprise Allowance is Case type (£ million) Volumes intended to help up to 40,000 unemployed people start up a business by 2013 as part of the Government’s Clinical Negligence 11.4 1,188 plans to promote growth and enterprise. Employer 75.8 12,016 1243W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1244W

Amount and volume of claims recovered 1 April 2010 to to make work pay as when someone in a household 31 March 2011 enters work and begins to receive working tax credit Amount recovered they will be exempt from the new measure. Case type (£ million) Volumes The ability of local authorities to carry out their Motor 41.1 10,035 homelessness duties or the level of additional burdens Other 0.9 139 on local authority child protection functions does not Public 10.6 2,603 form part of the Department’s assessment. Liability not known 0.07 15 Notes: Social Security Benefits: Fraud 1. The figures represent the total volume of claims for the recovered amount. An individual may have made a claim for more than one case Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work type, for example an individual may have made a claim for both motor and employer liability. This will be recorded as two case types. and Pensions what estimate he has made of the 2. The breakdown of recoveries and the case types that they represent proportion of benefit fraud committed in respect of are not available in the public domain in this format. each benefit which was attributable to identity fraud in Source: the latest period for which figures are available; and if The figures provided are from Shared Services Compensation Recovery he will make a statement. [53476] Unit computer system and are subject to rounding. The figures are Management Information collected for the purpose of routine administration, and therefore have not been subjected to the rigorous Chris Grayling: The information is not available for quality assurance that is applied to DWP official statistics. all benefits. The latest official statistics ″Fraud and Error in the ″ Social Security Benefits Benefit System (April 2009—March 2010) show that £4 million of jobseeker’s allowance expenditure was overpaid, due to identity fraud in that period, (0.1% of Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and expenditure). Figures for income support and pension Pensions what assessment his Department has made of credit showed nil expenditure loss as a result of identity the effects of the cap on benefit entitlement on the (a) fraud over that period. level of child poverty, (b) ability of local authorities to carry out their homelessness duties and (c) level of Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work additional burdens on local authority child protection and Pensions what estimate he has made of the sums functions. [53714] not paid out by his Department for each benefit as a result of detection of benefit fraud in each year since Maria Miller: Work is for most people the best way 1997. [53515] out of poverty. The benefit cap will restrict the total Chris Grayling: The information requested is not amount of welfare a household can receive to broadly available. the level of the average earned income after tax for working households. By doing this the policy will improve Social Security Benefits: Overpayments work incentives for those on benefits and sit alongside the other measures announced in the spending review Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to make the system fair and affordable. and Pensions how many individual cases of customer Any measurement of the effect on child poverty will overpayment debt there have been in each year since be driven by individual behavioural response to the 2006; what the total monetary value was of customer policy. We are putting in place the Work programme, overpayment debts in this period; what proportion of the biggest single welfare-to-work programme this country such debts are over 10 years old; and what the cost of has ever seen, which will give unemployed people administering such debts has been. [53366] unprecedented levels of personal support to get them Chris Grayling: The information is in the following into the workplace. The benefit cap supports our plans tables:

New debt caused by customer error or Stock of customer Volume of debts>10 yrs old1 (as a Recovery of debts fraud error and fraud percentage of all debts held) caused by customer debt at 31 March error or fraud Volume Value (£ million) £ million Volume Percentage £ million

2006-07 508,995 402.5 1,602.7 n/a n/a 162.1 2007-08 492,566 366.9 1,703.4 n/a n/a 183.4 2008-09 453,503 357.8 1,804.0 252,821 9.1 193.2 2009-10 505,487 386.1 1,885.6 253,830 9.3 205.1 2010-11 617,137 515.8 2,070.9 277,600 10 235.1

Cost (£ million)2 Pre-recovery Recovery

2006-07 60 2007-08 54.2 2008-09 50.7 2009-10 14.3 33.3 1245W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1246W

Cost (£ million)2 Pre-recovery Recovery

2010-11 15.1 32.0 n/a = Not available 1 Volumes of debts over 10 years old relates to all customer error and fraud debt held on system at 31 March in each year. The percentage figure relates to the proportion of those against all debts held in the debt stock. Data prior to 2008 is not available. 2 Costs relate to the total cost of the Department’s debt recovery organisation, not just that which relates the administration of customer fraud and error debt. Note: Costs split between pre-recovery and recovery not available 2006-07 to 2008-09. Source: The figures provided are from Shared Services Debt Manager via Business Objects computer system and are subject to rounding. The figures are Management Information (MI) collected for the purpose of routine administration, and therefore have not been subjected to the rigorous quality assurance that is applied to DWP official statistics.

In 2010-11 an additional £3.5 million was spent as Universal Credit part of a spend to save initiative to facilitate additional recovery. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and State Retirement Pensions Pensions in considering the options for child care support under universal credit, what analysis his Department has undertaken of the potential effects of levels of David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State support on (a) lone parents, (b) parents of children for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of aged under three years, (c) parents of school-age children, 3 May 2011, Official Report, column 733W, on social (d) families with two or more children and (e) child security benefits, how much his Department paid in care providers. [52510] (a) attendance allowance, (b) bereavement benefits, (c) carer’s allowance, (d) disability living allowance, Maria Miller: The Government have announced that (e) employment and support allowance, (f) incapacity support for child care costs will be provided in universal benefit, (g) income support, (h) jobseeker’s allowance, credit by an additional element, but said they will take (i) pension credit, (j) severe disablement allowance further advice before deciding what rates to set. and (k) winter fuel payments in the last year for which figures are available. [55069] We are looking at different options, and have said that we will be discussing them with stakeholders over Chris Grayling: The requested benefit expenditure the coming weeks. The impact on different groups, in information was published on the internet on 21 April terms of levels of child care support and work incentives, 2011 and a copy has been placed in the Library. and in the context of other provision and support The information can currently be found at the following available, will be considered as part of this. We are internet address: working closely with the Department for Education to take account of the impact on child care provision of http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/alltables_budget2010.xls different options. Unemployment: Young People Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions what IT contracts he has awarded and Pensions how many and what proportion of young for implementation of universal credit; what the name people between 16 and 25 years were not in work, is of each successful bidder; how many bids his training or education in each local authority area in Department received for each such contract; what the England and Wales in each year since 2007. [53422] monetary value is of each contract; what the expected timescale is for completing the work; and what outputs Mr Hayes: I have been asked to reply. are expected. [53346] Table 1 shows the number and percentage of people aged1 16 to 24 not in education, employment or training Chris Grayling: We have obtained Contingency Funding (NEET) in local authorities (LA) in England from 2007 Approval from HM Treasury to progress with design to 2009, the latest year for which data are available and and development work ahead of Royal Assent of the will be placed in the Libraries of the House. These Welfare Reform Bill. estimates are from the Annual Population Survey. The service providers involved in the IT delivery for Please note that these estimates are subject to large Universal Credit are currently: Accenture, Hewlett Packard sampling variability and should therefore be treated and BT plus input from Agile specialists Emergn. These with caution and viewed in conjunction with their contracts have been awarded under existing departmental Confidence Intervals2 (CIs), which give an indication of frameworks for IT Development. These contracts will how accurate an estimate is. For example, the confidence provide the delivery of the IT components for Universal interval for England of +/- 0.4% means that the true Credit. NEET percentage could lie up to 0.4 percentage points The monetary value of the contracts are commercially above or below the point estimate (between 14.0% and restricted under the terms of the framework agreements. 14.8%). The expected time scale for completion of the IT 1 Age used is the respondents’ academic age, which is their age at development is spring 2013 for live pathfinders and the preceding 31 August. autumn 2013 for full availability of Universal Credit, 2 Confidence intervals quoted are 95% confidence intervals. pending consideration of transition models. 1247W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1248W

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Reform Bill, what assessment he has made of the potential Pensions how he proposes to monitor the distribution effect of proposed conditionality measures on levels of of income within the household following the introduction child poverty. [46384] of universal credit, as proposed in his Department’s Equality Impact Assessment of the Welfare Reform Maria Miller: For most people, work is the best route Bill: Universal Credit. [54192] out of poverty. We believe that it is important that people who can take up paid employment are given help Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions and encouragement to do so. Conditionality has an is committed to monitoring and evaluating its policies important role to play to help prevent parents from and universal credit will be no exception—it is considered becoming distanced from the labour market, and therefore good practice in informing policy delivery and design. is reducing child poverty levels. We are currently considering our approach to monitoring For example, as set out in the recent impact assessment and evaluation of universal credit, including the distribution entitled ‘Conditionality Measures in the 2011 Welfare of income within households, and will consider customer Reform Bill’, it is estimated that increased conditionality experiences of universal credit and its effects. for lone parents with a youngest child aged five and six The equality impact assessment for the White Paper will result in 20,000 to 25,000 extra lone parents in ‘Universal Credit: Welfare that Works’ [Cm 7957] and work, which in turn could help reduce child poverty. the equality impact assessment published when the Compared to a child of a lone parent who is not Welfare Reform Bill was introduced into Parliament working, a child of a lone parent who works part-time outline a number of sources of evidence that the is over 2.5 times less likely to be living in poverty. A child of a lone parent who works full-time is over four Department will use to monitor the universal credit. 1 These might include administrative datasets, survey data, times less likely to be living in poverty . qualitative research and feedback, and internal management We have estimated that universal credit will have a information. We will also continue to draw upon research substantial positive impact on poverty and could lift as conducted by academics and stakeholders. many as 350,000 children out of relative income poverty. This is a combined impact of all measurable universal Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and credit factors, and does not identify the specific impact Pensions how he proposes to ensure that notifications of the conditionality or sanctions. of entitlement and awards are clear under universal 1 Households Below Average Income 2008/09. Comparisons based credit both on initial qualification for universal credit on 60% of median income Before Housing Costs. and after the taper has been applied on one occasion or more, as proposed in the Equality Impact Assessment Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the contribution of the of the Welfare Reform Bill: Universal Credit. [54193] Minister for Employment to the Public Bill Committee Chris Grayling: We are committed to involving customers on the Welfare Reform Bill of 5 April 2011, Official in the design of universal credit. We have already had Report, column 378, what terms of reference he has set conversations with them to find out what information for the consideration by the Social Security Advisory they would find helpful and how they would prefer the Committee of the provision of free school meals within information to be presented and this feedback will universal credit; what resources have been allocated to influence the design of notifications, whether on-line or the committee to undertake this work; when he expects via other channels, to ensure they are easy to understand. the committee to report its findings; whether these findings will be published; whether he plans to seek Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and advice on these findings from the Social Justice Pensions what the earnings rules will be for individuals Committee; and if he will make a statement. [53824] on contributory benefits in a couple entitled to Chris Grayling: Ministers will shortly be asking the universal credit. [54195] Social Security Advisory Committee to carry out an Chris Grayling: As set out in the White Paper, the independent review of passported benefits and the links earnings rules for universal credit will be based on a with universal credit and we will produce a written single taper to withdraw support as earnings rise and a ministerial statement with the terms of reference shortly. new approach to earnings disregards. The Government are still considering the level of the taper and disregards BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS but the intention is that there will be only one disregard per couple. Arms Trade We also stated in the White Paper “Universal Credit: Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for welfare that works”that the earnings rules for contributory Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish the jobseeker’s allowance and contributory employment and categories of transfers or sales of arms or components support allowance would be aligned with the universal of arms by the Government or its agencies to (a) other credit earnings rules. For a couple who are entitled to governments, (b) organisations and (c) individuals UC, the effect will be that the universal credit rules will overseas which are not published either on Government always determine the way that earnings affect the couple’s websites or on the United Nations or EU arms registers. overall entitlement. [52055] Welfare State: Reform Mr Prisk [holding answer 26 April 2011]: Transfers or sales of arms by the Government or its agencies to Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and other Governments, organisations or individuals overseas Pensions with reference to his Department’s impact are already published in the Government’s Annual Reports assessment on conditionality measures in the Welfare on Strategic Export Controls. 1249W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1250W

Environment Protection: Coventry (c) City College, Manchester—No Payments were made. Letter from Peter Mason, dated 5 May 2011: Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State I am responding in respect of the National Measurement for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps Office (formerly National Weights and Measures Laboratory) to to promote low carbon alternatives in businesses in your Parliamentary Question tabled on 4 May 2011 reference Coventry. [54907] 2010/5285 to the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, asking what payments his Department and Mr Prisk: UK businesses will lead the way in putting its agencies have had made to (a) Manchester College, (b) Manchester the economy on a low-carbon, resource efficient path. College for Arts and Technology and (b) City College, Manchester The Government’s Roadmap to a Green Economy, to since 1997; and for what purpose in each case. be published later this year, will provide businesses The National Measurement Office has not made any payments across the UK with the longer-term clarity they have to the above organisations since 1997. been seeking on how we will help them bring about the Letter from Geoff Russell, dated 9 May 2011: transition. In response to your Parliamentary Question asking about what Coventry will be covered by a new Local Enterprise payments the Agency has made to: (i) Manchester College, (ii) Partnership for Coventry and Warwickshire. Government Manchester College for Arts and Technology and (iii) City College, Manchester since 1997 and for what purpose in each case, I wish will share information and work with the Partnership to inform you that the organisations listed above have now all on low carbon opportunities. From October 2012, small merged into The Manchester College. businesses will be able to improve the energy efficiency The attached spreadsheet provides a breakdown of all the of their properties at no upfront cost through the payments. Government’s Green Deal scheme. College Funding Summary Further Education: Manchester Revenue £000 Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Further Higher College Year education1 education Total Business, Innovation and Skills what payments his Department and its agencies have made to (a) Manchester The Manchester 2009/10 149,920 5,917 155,837 College, (b) Manchester College for Arts and Technology College and (c) City College, Manchester since 1997; and for 2008/09 118,519 3,751 122,270 what purpose in each case. [54807] City College, 2007/082 72,716 1,669 74,385 Mr Hayes: Since 2003, the Department and its Manchester predecessors have made 24 payments to the Manchester 2006/07 65,776 1,820 67,596 College totalling £83,290. All of these payments related 2005/06 34,941 1,516 36,457 to course fees for various members of staff undertaking formal CIPD qualifications. 2004/05 26,494 1,661 28,155 No payments have been recorded to Manchester College 2003/04 28,486 1,406 29,892 for Arts and Technology or City College, Manchester. 2002/03 25,755 1,399 27,154 Figures prior to 2003 can be provided only at 2001/02 24,218 1,313 25,531 disproportionate cost. 2000/01 17,372 1,261 18,633 I have approached the chief executives of the Insolvency 1999/ 15,863 0 15,863 Service, Companies House, the National Measurement 20003 Office, the Intellectual Property Office, UK Space Agency 1998/993 14,452 0 14,452 and the Skills Funding Agency and they will respond 1997/98 17,770 551 18,321 directly to my hon. Friend. Letter from Stephen Speed: Manchester 2007/08 40,350 1,826 42,176 The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation College of Arts and Skills has asked me to reply to your question, what payments and Technology his Department and its agencies have made to (a) Manchester 2006/07 35,619 2,337 37,956 College, (b) Manchester College for Arts and Technology and (c) 2005/06 34,128 1,270 35,398 City College, Manchester since 1997; and for what purpose in each case. 2004/05 32,934 1,205 34,139 The Insolvency Service, an Executive Agency of the Department 2003/04 30,427 1,115 31,542 for Business, Innovation and Skills made the following payments 2002/03 26,178 945 27,123 for member(s) of staff who were training for CIPD Flexible 2001/02 23,276 725 24,001 Learning Programmes since 1997. 2000/01 21,260 650 21,910 £ 1999/ 18,603 0 18,603 20003 (a) The Manchester College 1998/993 16,715 0 16,715 2009/10 5,700 1997/98 16,869 0 16,869 1 Further education incorporates, Youth, Adult, Employer, OLASS (b) The Manchester College for and other funding Arts and Technology 2 Finance record for the college not received. Allocations data used 2007/08 2,643 3 HE and other departmental funding not separately identified 2008/09 2,800 Source: College finance records 1251W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1252W

but due to the broad nature of much of the correspondence Capital it is not possible to categorise simply as for or against College Year Capital (£000) the Government’s policy. The Manchester College 2008/09 to 2009/10 2,021 City College Manchester 2001/02 to 2007/08 6,493 Manchester College of 2001/02 to 2007/08 10,894 Prisoners: Education Arts and Technology Letter from David Williams, dated 5 May 2011: Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Thank you for your question addressed to the Secretary of Business, Innovation and Skills what contracts (a) his State for Business, Innovation and Skills asking what payments Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies his Department and its agencies have made to (a) Manchester have had with (i) Manchester College, (ii) Manchester College, (b) Manchester College for Arts and Technology and (c) College for Arts and Technology and (iii) City College, City College, Manchester since 1997; and for what purpose in Manchester for the provision of education in prisons each case. (54807) since 1997. [54806] The UK Space Agency has made no payments to Manchester College, Manchester College for Arts and Technology or the City College, Manchester during this period. Mr Hayes: Prior to 2005, contracts for the provision of education in prisons were let by Her Majesty’s Letter from John Alty, dated 6 May 2011: Prison Service, then an Executive Agency of the Home I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office Office. Since 2005, contracts for the provision of education to your Parliamentary Question tabled 4th May 2011, to the in public sector prisons in England have been let by the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Learning and Skills Council and, latterly, the Skills Skills. Funding Agency and the Young People’s Learning The IPO has paid one invoice to Manchester College since Agency. The Department for Business, Innovation and 2005 (no earlier information available) for £2850 for the provision of Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD) Skills and its predecessors have let no contracts to the training undertaken in 2009. Manchester College, the Manchester College for Arts Letter from Tim Moss, dated 6 May 2011: and Technology or City College, Manchester for the provision of education in prisons. I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary Question tabled 4 May 2011, UIN54807 to the Secretary of State I have approached the chief executives of the Insolvency for Business, Innovation and Skills. Service, Companies House, the National Measurement Companies House has never made any payments to Manchester Office, the Intellectual Property Office, UK Space Agency College, Manchester College for Arts and Technology or City and the Skills Funding Agency and they will respond College, Manchester at all. directly to my hon. Friend. Marketing: Arts Letter from Stephen Speed: The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has asked me to reply to your question what, contracts Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies have Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department had with (i) Manchester College, (ii) Manchester College for Arts is taking to support the international marketing and and Technology and (Hi) City College, Manchester for the provision promotion of the creative industries. [54490] of education in prisons since 1997. The Insolvency Service, an Executive Agency of the Department Mr Prisk [holding answer 9 May 2011]: The UK has for Business, Innovation and Skills has had no contracts with (a) one of the largest creative sectors in the world, contributing Manchester College, (b) Manchester College for Arts and Technology £17.3 billion in exports. UK Trade and Investment, and (c) City College, Manchester for the provision of education working in partnership with the Department for Culture, in prisons since 1997. Media and Sport and industry partners will raise awareness Letter from Peter Mason, dated 5 May 2011: of the UK’s creative offer and use major showcasing I am responding in respect of the National Measurement events in the UK and overseas and trade missions to Office (formerly National Weights and Measures Laboratory) to maximise the export and investment potential for this your Parliamentary Question tabled on 4 May 2011 reference important area of the economy. 2010/5284 to the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, asking what contracts (a) his Department Postal Services and its predecessors and (b) its agencies have had with (i) Manchester College, (ii) Manchester College for Arts and Technology and (iii) City College, Manchester for the provision of education in prisons Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for since 1997. Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many pieces of The National Measurement Office has not had any contracts correspondence his Department received (a) supporting with the above organisations for the provision of education in and (b) against privatisation of the Royal Mail in the prisons since 1997. last 12 months; [55233] Letter from Geoff Russell, dated 6 May 2011: (2) how many pieces of correspondence his Department received (a) supporting and (b) against post office Thank you for your question addressed to the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, what contracts branch closures in the last 12 months. [55234] (a) his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies have had with (i) Manchester College, (ii) Manchester College for Arts Mr Davey: The Department receives large amounts and Technology and (iii) City College, Manchester for the provision of correspondence covering a wide range of topics of education in prisons since 1997. relating to Royal Mail and the Post Office network. Prior to July 2005 education for offenders in public sector Many of these will have expressed views on Royal Mail prisons in England was delivered by providers under contract to privatisation or on the future of the Post Office network, the Prison Service. 1253W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1254W

A contract for £9,407,045 was let by the Learning and Skills Mr Davey: The draft Groceries Code Adjudicator Council for the delivery of offender learning in 6 Northwest Bill will be published for pre-legislative scrutiny shortly. prisons delivering the development phase of the learning and skills service (OLASS) in the academic year August 2005/July 2006. Following and open and competitive tendering process OLASS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT was rolled out to all public prisons in England from August 2006. A contract was let by the Learning and Skills Council to City Archaeology: Graduates College Manchester for £41,671,020 for the 2006/07 academic year in 36 prisons. Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, In subsequent years the value of those contracts were as Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions he has follows 07/08 £48,183,598, 08/09 £50,108,047. It is important to had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation note that between August 2005 and July 2009 additional provision and Skills on the effects of reductions in humanities for the juvenile estate (those aged 15-17 yrs) were included in the funding on employment prospects for graduates in contracts. archaeology and related subjects. [54851] Following the dissolution of the LSC the responsibility for juvenile education transferred to the YPLA. John Penrose: Ministers from the Department for Following a further open and competitive tendering process Culture, Media and Sport, and Business, Innovations the Learning and Skills Council let contract to The Manchester and Skills have had meetings about the effects of reductions College for 70 prisons. The value of those contracts in 09/10 as in funding on higher education but not about the specifics £69,570,465 and in 20/11 was £72,812,708. of employability for graduates in archaeology or related Letter from David Williams, dated 6 May 2011: subjects. Future funding will increasingly flow from Thank you for your question addressed to the Secretary of graduate contributions—that was the principle behind State for Business, Innovation and Skills asking what contracts Lord Browne’s recommendations. Universities will be (a) his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies have able to secure an equivalent flow of income if their had with (i) Manchester College, (ii) Manchester College for Arts course provision remains attractive to students. Universities and Technology and (iii) City College, Manchester for the provision of education in prisons since 1997. (54806) must consider, therefore, how to structure their arts courses in ways that make them as attractive as possible The UK Space Agency has placed no contracts with Manchester to students. College, Manchester College for Arts and Technology or the City College, Manchester during this period. Arts: Disadvantaged Letter from John Alty, dated 6 May 2011: I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, to your Parliamentary Question tabled 4th May 2011, to the Olympics, Media and Sport what steps his Department Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and is taking to improve access to the arts amongst Skills. disadvantaged groups. [54489] The IPO has not had any contracts with the above institutions for the provision of education in prisons since 2005. No records Mr Jeremy Hunt [holding answer 9 May 2011]: Arts are available prior to this date. Council England (ACE) is responsible for improving Letter from Tim Moss, dated 6 May 2011: access to the arts among disadvantaged groups. I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary ACE has set out its commitment to the widest possible Question tabled 4 May 2011, UIN54806 to the Secretary of State access for all of the country’s communities in its 10 year for Business, Innovation and Skills. manifesto ‘Achieving great art for everyone’. They are Companies House has never had any contracts with currently working on developing the practical actions Manchester College, Manchester College for Arts and required as an organisation to deliver this at regional, Technology or City College, Manchester at all. area and national levels. ACE also publishes an Annual Equality Review which Startup Britain reviews performance in race, gender and disability equality areas. By 2012 they will voluntarily produce a single Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for equality scheme covering all the protected characteristics Business, Innovation and Skills what the cost to the outlined in the Equality Act 2010 legislation. public purse was of the establishment of Startup Britain. [53337] British Sky Broadcasting

Mr Prisk [holding answer 28 April 2011]: Startup Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Britain is a business-led initiative receiving no public Olympics, Media and Sport when he plans to announce funds. The Government whole-heartedly endorsed the his decision on News Corporation’s proposed acquisition campaign at its launch on 28 March and used the of BSkyB. [54309] launch of Startup Britain to highlight its own strategy to make the UK the very best place in the world to start Mr Jeremy Hunt [holding answer 5 May 2011]: I will and grow a business. The public contribution to the cost announce my decision after I have carefully considered of staging this event was £8,012.70. the representations I have received on the undertaking in lieu. Supermarkets: Competition Broadband

Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Innovation and Skills when he plans to take steps to Olympics, Media and Sport what recent progress he has establish a groceries code adjudicator. [55080] made on the roll-out of fast speed broadband. [54488] 1255W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1256W

Mr Jeremy Hunt [holding answer 9 May 2011]: The opportunities to experience working in Departments. Government set out their broadband strategy in ‘Britain’s Information regarding these schemes can be found on Superfast Broadband Future’ on 6 December 2010. At the fast steam website at the following link: the same time I announced that the next £50 million of http://faststream.civilservice.gov.uk/Summer-Diversity- funding from Broadband Delivery UK would be made Internships/ available for bids in spring 2011. Additionally, we recommend visiting our website using Since the publication of the strategy document BDUK the following link: has published guidance for local authorities on how to http://www.culture.gov.uk/about_us/our_sponsored_bodies/ prepare local broadband plans and how to bid for the 963.aspx next wave of funds. The closing date for submission of which lists all of our sponsored bodies and other related bids was 18 April and I expect to announce the next organisations, who may have opportunities for work locations to receive funding at the end of May. placements. In addition, £10 million of funding was announced in February 2011 in support of broadband roll-out in English Heritage: Bexley North Wales and the procurement processes for the pilot project in Cumbria began in April 2011. The Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, procurement processes for the other pilot projects will Olympics, Media and Sport which places of worship in begin shortly. (a) the London borough of Bexley and (b) London We have also held discussions with the industry on have received funding from (i) English Heritage and (ii) the series of policy interventions outlined in the strategy the Heritage Lottery Fund since 1997. [53938] document encouraging infrastructure sharing in particular. John Penrose: The information requested is not held In the recent Budget, the Government announced by the Department and relates to matters that are the that enterprise zones would have superfast broadband responsibility of English Heritage and the Heritage available to them. We will also be issuing guidance on Lottery Fund. measures designed to facilitate and reduce the costs of broadband roll-out—microtrenching and streetworks. Accordingly, I have asked the chief executives of English Heritage and the Heritage Lottery Fund to Departmental Pensions write direct to the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford. Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Copies of the replies will be placed in the Libraries of Olympics, Media and Sport what proportion of his both Houses. Department’s budget he expects to be spent on staff pensions in each of the next five years. [54558] English Heritage: Religious Buildings

John Penrose: In the financial year 2010-11, the Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Department’s spend on pension contributions was 7.6% Olympics, Media and Sport what proportion of grants of the overall administration budget. awarded by (a) English Heritage and (b) the Heritage The Department is not able to quantify the proportion Lottery Fund have been spent on places of worship in of its administrative budget it expects to spend on staff each year since 1997. [53942] pensions. It would be at a disproportionate cost to try and speculate on the numerous factors which would John Penrose: The information requested is not held affect the proportion of budget spent. by the Department and relates to matters that are the All permanent staff of the Department are members responsibility of English Heritage and the Heritage of the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme (PSCPS) Lottery Fund. unless they have opted for a stakeholder pension scheme. Accordingly, I have asked the chief executives of English The Department makes monthly contributions to PSCPS Heritage and the Heritage Lottery Fund to write direct to meet the accrued liability for service worked by staff. to the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford. Departmental Work Experience Copies of the replies will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Football Licensing Authority Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what advice his Department provides to those wishing to (a) work as Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for an intern, (b) undertake a work experience placement Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what plans he has and (c) work as a volunteer in his Department. [52806] to (a) retain the expertise and (b) carry out the functions of the Football Licensing Authority. [54462] John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport does not run a work placement scheme. Mr Jeremy Hunt: The Government intend to retain However, we do participate in Cabinet Office run schemes the functions and expertise of the Football Licensing that set up work placements for high calibre graduates Authority (or, if the Sports Grounds Safety Authority and undergraduates from under-represented groups. Bill is enacted, the Sports Grounds Safety Authority) The Fast Stream Ethnic Minority Summer Development but to transfer them to another body after 2012. We are programme (SDP), and the Summer Placement scheme currently seeking the necessary powers through the for Graduates with Disabilities (SPS), aims to address Public Bodies Bill and are considering which body the under-representation of ethnic minorities and people would be an appropriate home for these important with disabilities in the civil service, by offering them functions. 1257W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1258W

Gambling Mr Jeremy Hunt: We have received over 130 responses to the Local Media Action Plan from the public and Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, industry. We are currently analysing these consultation Olympics, Media and Sport what recent discussions he responses and will be publishing a statement, addressing has had with representatives of gambling authorities in the issues raised and outlining the next steps for local overseas jurisdictions wishing to join the White List; TV, in due course. and if he will make a statement. [54661]

John Penrose: Over the last year I have had discussions JUSTICE with the Jersey Gambling Commission and the Jersey Government about our review of the regulation of British Nationals Abroad: Terrorism overseas based remote gambling and the possible implications for the White List. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) when he plans to implement the provisions of the Gaming Machines: Coastal Areas Crime and Security Act 2010 related to compensation for victims of terrorism overseas; [55073] Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the Olympics, Media and Sport (1) if he will take steps to public purse of implementing the provisions of the provide assistance to seaside arcades at risk of closure; Crime and Security Act 2010 related to compensation and if he will make a statement; [54653] for victims of terrorism overseas. [55074] (2) if he will estimate the number of seaside arcades operating gaming machines which will close in the next Mr Kenneth Clarke: The issue of compensation for three years; and if he will make a statement. [54654] victims of terrorism overseas is being considered alongside a review of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme John Penrose: Representations have been made by the and wider victims’ services about which the Government amusement industry about the pressures being faced by expect to make an announcement before the summer seaside arcades operating gaming machines, but it is not recess. possible from the information provided to estimate the The provisions in the Crime and Security Act 2010 number of businesses that might close in the next three relate to a potential forward-looking compensation scheme, years. the cost of which would depend on the number and Coastal destinations and attractions can make an impact of future overseas terrorist attacks and the important contribution to the Government’s tourism design of any scheme. It is not possible with any degree strategy and VisitEngland have been working with the of accuracy to predict the cost of such a scheme. British Resorts and Destinations Association and the industry to develop a Seaside Resorts Action Plan Greater Manchester which will be released in the summer. The Government are also looking at how we can reduce unnecessary Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for regulatory burdens and I have been reviewing the maximum Justice what payments his Department and its agencies stake limit and premises entitlements for category B3 have made to (a) Manchester College, (b) Manchester gaming machines with a view to providing some level of College for Arts and Technology and (c) City College, assistance to the British amusement industry. I hope to Manchester since its inception; and for what purpose in make an announcement soon on the outcome of that each case. [54809] review. Mr Blunt: Since the formation of the Ministry of Members: Correspondence Justice in May 2007 the Department and its executive agencies have spent the following with The Manchester College: Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he plans to £ reply to the letter of 18 March 2011 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr P. Ministry of Justice Walsh. [54820] 2007-08 11,445.00 2008-09 0 Mr Jeremy Hunt: I responded to the letter of 18 March 2009-10 0 2011 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, 2010-11 0 Gorton on 1 April 2010, which was emailed directly to 2011-12 0 his parliamentary office. Total 11,445.00 I will arrange for another copy of this letter to be emailed to the right hon. Member. HM Courts and Tribunals Service 2007-08 1,410.00 Television 2008-09 3,525.00 2009-10 6,765.00 Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 0 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he plans to 2011-12 0 announce the preferred bidder for the National TV Total 11,700.00 Spine to support local television. [54461] 1259W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1260W

been convicted where their involvement in the activities £ of the group was not significant enough to warrant conviction for the offences in question. National Offender Management Service Legal Aid: Domestic Violence 2007-08 55,142.83 2008-09 210,105.49 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 1,900,872.30 Justice what his policy is on the availability of legal aid 2010-11 3,338,550.87 for victims of domestic violence who do not seek an 2011-12 48,487.27 initial non-molestation order but are subsequently Total 5,553,158.76 required to appear in court in respect of residence and related matters. [55034] Office of the Public Guardian 2007-08 0 Mr Djanogly: The Government’s consultation paper 2008-09 0 “Proposals for the reform of Legal Aid in England and 2009-10 0 Wales” proposed retaining legal aid for private law 2010-11 0 family cases (which include residence matters) where there is objective evidence of domestic violence. The 2011-12 0 consultation sought views on the circumstances which Total 0 might provide such evidence. We are currently considering The Manchester College for Arts and Technology the responses to the consultation and will publish our and City College, Manchester, merged to become The response to consultation in due course. Manchester College on 1 August 2008. As a result of the merger, all payments made since May 2007 are Legal Aid: Greater London recorded as being made to The Manchester College. It is not possible to provide a detailed list of the Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice transactions and their purpose without incurring a what his estimate is of the change on the level of legal disproportionate cost. aid expenditure in London as a result of the implementation The Manchester College provides professional of proposed reforms. [55072] development training to Ministry of Justice and HMCTS staff who are undertaking accredited courses with the Mr Djanogly: The impact assessments published Institute of Legal Executives (ILEX) and Chartered alongside the consultation paper detail the potential Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD). impacts of the proposals. However, these do not consider NOMS use The Manchester College to provide training any specific geographic areas, and there is no intention services for prisoners and NOMS staff and services to to conduct such an assessment. improve employment prospects for offenders. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Information Commissioner how much was spent on legal aid in London in 2009-10. [55075]

Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Djanogly: Legal aid expenditure in London in Justice for what reasons the Office of the Information 2009-10 was £583 million. Commissioner is unable to assess cases more than 12 months after the incident has occurred. [54824] London is determined by the location of the solicitor firm, except for Crown Court non-contracted cases, Mr Djanogly: The Information Commissioner’s Office where the location of the court has been used. There are may take account of any undue delay on the part of an elements of spend, such as telephone advice, for which applicant when deciding whether to investigate a complaint. it is not possible to allocate a region. These are not The ICO considers the individual circumstances of therefore included. requesters when making such decisions. The ICO discharges its responsibilities independently Mediation of Government. It would not be appropriate for the Government to comment on the ICO’s handling of any Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice individual complaints. what steps he has taken to (a) support and (b) promote the use of mediation services for disputes. [54890] Joint Enterprise Mr Djanogly: The Government are committed to Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for encouraging the public to resolve their issues out of Justice what recent representations he has received on court without recourse to public funds, using simpler, the common law doctrine on joint enterprise. [54973] more informal remedies where they are appropriate. A new Pre-Application Protocol for Family Mediation Mr Blunt: We have received a number of representations Information and Assessment meetings came into effect about joint enterprise law. These have included concerns on 6 April, This will help to promote awareness and that the law allows some gang members involved in the understanding of mediation and begin to harmonise commission of offences to escape prosecution. Conversely, the position between self-funding and publicly funded concerns have also been raised that other people have individuals. 1261W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1262W

In 2009-10, we spent £14.4 million pounds on publicly incidents, regardless of severity.This improvement resulted funded family mediations. In our recent legal aid in a 60% increase in recording. Consequently, self-harm consultation paper we proposed that most family private figures prior to 2004 are not comparable with those law proceedings—other than cases where domestic violence produced since. or forced marriage is involved and child abduction cases—be removed from the scope of legal aid. Crucially, Prisons: Manpower however, as we believe that supporting families at their most difficult moments is vitally important, it is proposed Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice that free mediation for the types of dispute that previously what the (a) operational staffing requirement and (b) were in scope will continue to those who are eligible. number of staff in post was for each grade of staff This will mean that those vulnerable people who need employed at each prison directly operated by HM support will be able to benefit from mediation. Prison Service on 31March 2011. [55003] We also look forward to receiving the final recommendations from the independently-chaired Family Mr Blunt: Information on the operational staffing Justice Review panel this autumn. This will help us to requirement and staff in post for each grade of staff consider how the use of dispute resolution could be employed at each public sector Prison Service establishment further encouraged across the family justice system. on 31 March has been deposited in the House Library. As far as civil justice is concerned, on 29 March we issued a consultation document “Solving disputes in the Social Security Benefits county courts: creating a simpler, quicker and more proportionate system”, which seeks views on a range of Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals to reform the civil justice system, including Justice what information his Department holds on the greater use of mediation. costs incurred by parties in the case of Arathoon v. the In particular, we are consulting on introducing automatic Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (C/2005/ referral to mediation in small claims cases, and mediation 0126). [54119] information sessions in higher-value cases. This is to help people avoid the anxiety and expense of court Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. where possible, although court will still be an option for The Department for Work and Pensions holds records those who mediation cannot help. relating to the case of Arathoon v. the Secretary of This builds on the current service offered by the State for Work and Pensions in the Court of Appeal. courts, where over each of the past two years some The Department’s records indicate that £8,218.23 was 10,000 small claims have been mediated with nearly spent on the legal proceedings. This includes the appellant’s three-quarters reaching successful conclusion. The vast legal costs in the Court of Appeal, but does not include majority of these mediations take place over the work done by the Department’s staff. telephone—saving people the time and expense of having to attend a court. Social Services Prisoners: Self-harm John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many independent social workers were Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice appointed in care cases in each of the last three years. (1) what definition of self-harming the Prison Service [55033] uses; [55060] Mr Djanogly: The information requested on the number (2) how many instances of self-harming were reported of independent social workers appointed in care cases on the prison estate in (a) 1997-98 and (b) 2009-10; for each of the last three years is as follows: [55061] (3) how many instances of self-harming were reported 2008 2009 2010 in each prison in England and Wales in (a) 1997-98 and (b) 2009-10. [55062] Family proceedings 15 307 316 courts (magistrates) 1 Mr Blunt: Self-harm in prison custody is defined as County courts 32 138 156 1 Data in the county courts for 2008 cover the period April to “any act where a prisoner deliberately harms themselves irrespective December; data for January to March 2008 are not available. of the method, intent or severity of any injury”. Annual numbers of self-harm incidents from 2004 to 2009 are publicly available on the Ministry of Justice website, as part of our Safety in Custody statistics. They DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER can be accessed via the following link: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/safety-custody- Petitions: Electronic Government self-harm-statistics-0710.xls Table 12 lists incidents by prison, by year. The relevant Hazel Blears: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what information for 2010 is currently in process for publication assessment he has made of the effect on the accountability later this year. and transparency of Government of the suspension of The Prison Service has recorded information on self-harm the facility to submit petitions through the Downing since the early 1990s but the focus was limited to the street website. [46998] most serious incidents of self-harm. Since 2003, new procedures introduced the recording of all self-harm Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply 1263W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1264W

No specific assessment of the effects of the suspension schools in the Ikeja Province in Nigeria on 25 August of the electronic petitions site that was available through 2010. £5,280 of this grant has been paid out to support the Downing street website on accountability and the costs of six exchange visits. The remaining £1,320 transparency has been made. will be paid out when Bexley council submits its final A new ePetitions website hosted by Directgov is report in November 2011. planned to be available by the summer recess. The GSP supports twinning between schools in the UK and those in the developing world. An independent Voting Rights: Prisoners assessment of the impact of GSP showed that pupils in the scheme have significantly higher knowledge of the Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister challenges for developing countries and are more likely whether he has received notification of any proposal by to have positive attitudes towards international development. the Human Rights Commissioner of the Council of DFID is currently completing a review of the use of aid Europe to make a third party intervention under the funds in the UK to promote awareness of global poverty. provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights in the case of Greens and MT v. UK pending judgment in the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights. [51633] CABINET OFFICE

Mr Harper: I understand that the Commissioner Departmental Manpower made no such intervention. The Government sought to refer the Greens and MT judgment against the UK to Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Minister for the the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Cabinet Office what public sector job reduction targets Rights. We are disappointed with the Court’s decision have been set for his Department and its non-departmental not to reconsider the judgment. We are considering the public bodies for each of the next 24 months; and what next steps. steps he plans to take to meet such targets. [51530]

Mr Maude: The Government have not set targets for a reduction in the number of posts in the Cabinet Office INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT or its non-departmental public bodies. Developing Countries: Maternity Services Work force implications of the spending review settlement will depend on internal budget allocations and subsequent management decisions. However, for the Cabinet Office Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for International overall, the Department is expecting to reduce headcount Development what his policy is on the commitment by around 20% over the spending review period, which made at the G8 summit in 2010 to produce an accountability represents a reduction of between 300 and 400 posts report to track progress towards the maternal and child from a baseline of 1,800. health pledges made in the Muskoka Declaration. [54837] The Department expects much of this to be achieved through natural turnover. However, it has recently run a Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK strongly supports the voluntary exit scheme which is expected to result in just reproductive, maternal, newborn and under-five health under 200 exits. The Department has no current plans pledges made in the Muskoka Declaration. We welcome for further schemes. the G8 decision to produce an accountability report in Financial Ombudsman Service 2011 that focuses on health and food security. We are working with colleagues in the G8 Health Mr Buckland: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Experts Group, the G8 Accountability Working Group, Office what recent assessment he has made of the and the G8 Sherpa process to ensure that the 2011 performance of the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS); Deauville Accountability Report assesses progress against how many complaints are outstanding at the FOS; and all outstanding health commitments including those how many such complaints have been waiting for a final made at Muskoka in a clear, credible and transparent decision for more than one month. [54021] way. It is important that individual countries clarify what Mr Hoban: I have been asked to reply. they are committed to under the Muskoka Initiative The Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) is and give an indication, as far as possible, of how they operationally independent of Government. In 2003 the plan to fulfil their commitments. FOS’ public interest board committed to commissioning Global School Partnerships and publishing an independent external review every three years. The latest review, which is due this year, will be led by the National Audit Office and will report on Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the FOS’ efficiency. International Development how much funding his Department has provided to the London borough of I understand that at the end of April the Financial Bexley for the Global School Partnerships scheme in Ombudsman Service (FOS) had 138,611 open cases and the latest period for which figures are available. [54840] that 10,070 of these cases had been waiting over a month for a final decision from an ombudsman. Mr Andrew Mitchell: Bexley council was awarded a The number of cases referred for a final Ombudsman £6,600 grant under the Global School Partnership (GSP) decision has increased by 50%. The FOS has been scheme to support 10 Bexley schools to link with 10 recruiting more ombudsmen to tackle this. 1265W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1266W

Members: Correspondence Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply. The Pensions Regulator was set up in April 2005 with Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Minister for the a new proactive and risk- based regulatory approach, Cabinet Office when he plans to reply to the letter of placing greater emphasis on identifying and tackling 11 March 2011 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, real risks to members’ benefits. There is ongoing assessment Gorton with regard to Ms C. Dean. [54783] of the regulator’s performance at both ministerial and official level. In addition, the regulator must submit an Mr Hurd: The information requested fell within the annual report on its activities to the Secretary of State, responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I asked which is then laid before Parliament. the authority to reply. The independent Hampton Implementation Reviews A reply was sent to the right hon. Member by the of Regulatory Bodies look at how well regulators are census director of the Office for National Statistics on following the Hampton principles of better regulation 29 March. and assess the characteristics of effective sanctions, as defined by the Macrory Review. The Hampton Report Minimum Wage: Greater London on the Pensions Regulator, published on 29 January 2010, had extremely positive findings: the review team concluded that the Hampton principles were thoroughly Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet embedded in the regulator’s work, both at strategic and Office how many people resident in each London borough operational levels. receive the national minimum wage. [55221] At 3 May, the latest date for which information is available, the regulator had two complaints outstanding. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Both of these were within the regulator’s 20-day deadline responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have for responding. There were no complaints which had asked the authority to reply. been outstanding for more than nine months. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated May 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Rural Areas have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many people resident in each London borough receive the national minimum wage. (55221) Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Estimates for the number of jobs paid at the national minimum Office what the status is of the Commission for Rural wage are not available from the Office for National Statistics. Communities; and if he will make a statement. [53925] Estimates for the number of employee jobs paid below the national minimum wage are available, but only for all employee Richard Benyon: I have been asked to reply. jobs by Government Office Region, which is the lowest geographical The Cabinet Office is responsible for leading and breakdown published by ONS. I attach a table showing the number of all employee jobs earning less than the national co-ordinating the overall programme for Public Bodies minimum wage for London and for the UK in April 2010, the reform, while Departments are responsible for decisions latest period for which figures are available. on individual bodies. A guide to measuring low pay and associated articles can be The Commission for Rural Communities is listed in found on the National Statistics website at: Schedule 1 to the Public Bodies Bill as the Government http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=5837 are seeking a power to abolish the body subject to necessary legislative and consultative processes, and the Estimates of jobs paid below the national minimum wage for London and the UK in April 2010 consent of Parliament. Meanwhile, the Commission 2010 will continue to exercise its statutory functions. Thousand Percentage I refer my hon. Friend to the written ministerial statement I made on 1 April 2011, Official Report, London *22 *0.6 column 41-42WS, which describes the way the Commission UK 271 1.1 will operate and its relationship with the new Rural Guide to quality: Communities Policy Unit in DEFRA. The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of a figure, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an average of 200 with a Voting Rights: Prisoners CV of 5%, we would expect the population average to be within the range 180 to 220. Key: Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office * CV>5% and <=10% if he will request the administration of the European Source: Court of Human Rights to amend the factsheet of the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), Office for National European Court of Human Rights entitled Prisoners’ Statistics 2010 Right to Vote published in February 2011 to include reference to (a) the outcome of the division on the Pensions: Complaints motion on Voting by Prisoners of 10 February 2011, Votes and Proceedings, No. 115 and (b) the arguments Sajid Javid: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet addressed in the UK against granting prisoners the Office what recent assessment he has made of the right to vote. [52475] performance of the Pensions Regulator; how many complaints were outstanding at the Pensions Regulator Mr Harper: Factsheets are compiled, by theme, by on the latest date for which information is available; and the Council of Europe’s (CoE) Press Service on the how many such complaints had been waiting for a final European Court of Human Right’s case-law and pending decision for more than nine months. [54300] cases. Their content is a matter for the CoE. 1267W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1268W

The Information Note is available on the Committee Heart Diseases of Ministers’ website: https://wcd.coe.int/wcd/ViewDoc.jsp?id=1753877 Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health &Site=CM&BackColorInternet=C3C3C3&BackColor (1) how much the NHS spent on (a) elective and (b) Intranet=EDB021&BackColorLogged=F5D383 emergency admissions for acute myocardial infarction in (i) each primary care trust and (ii) England in each of the last three years for which data are available; [54946] INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE (2) how much the NHS spent on acute myocardial infarction in (a) each primary care trust and (b) Members: Insurance England in each of the last three years for which data are available; [54947] Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent (3) what the repeat admission rate for acute myocardial Parliamentary Standards Authority, (1) if he will urge infarction was in (a) each primary care trust and (b) the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority to England in each of the last three years for which data publish guidance on the general subject headings under are available. [54948] which claims may be made by hon. Members for insurance premiums relating to staff employment litigation; Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not [53609] held centrally. (2) to what extent the Independent Parliamentary Further information about acute myocardial infarction Standards Authority will accept claims from hon. is available from the Myocardial Ischaemia National Members for reimbursement of expenditure incurred Audit Project at: on insurance premiums relating to staff employment www.rcplondon.ac.uk/resources/myocardial-ischaemia- litigation; and what the maximum sum is that can be national-audit-project-minap claimed for the purchase of such insurance. [53611] NHS Future Forum Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what listening exercise events the NHS Future Forum Letter from Scott Woolveridge: plans to undertake before the end of the consultation; As acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary [54877] Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking whether IPSA will publish guidance for MPs (2) what listening exercise events the NHS Future claiming reimbursement of premia for legal expenses insurance Forum has held to date. [54878] under the MPs’ Expenses Scheme. Legal Expenses Insurance (which may cover costs associated Mr Simon Burns: The NHS Future Forum is with staff employment litigation) is claimable from the Office participating in a number of meetings and discussions Costs Expenditure budget. This budget is capped at £24,000 for London Area MPs and £21,500 for non-London Area MPs. All throughout the listening period. Over 200 such opportunities claims for such premia must meet the rules of the Scheme and the have already been arranged over the two month period, evidence requirements. involving a wide range of participants from across the As MPs have discretion over claims for costs which meet the national health service, local government, third sector conditions of the Office Costs Expenditure budget, IPSA does and beyond. Host organisations for upcoming events not intend to provide further guidance to MPs on this matter. will be publicising these as they feel most appropriate through their usual channels. We will publish a weekly update on who Forum HEALTH members have been hearing from, available through the CJD: Disease Control Modernisation of Health and Care website at: www.dh.gov.uk/healthandcare Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Additionally, details of all the Listening events held, Health how much has been spent on research into (a) including dates, location and audience, will be released prion decontamination and (b) variant Creutzfeldt- alongside the NHS Future Forum’s report. Jakob disease blood tests in each year for which figures are available. [54815] Radiotherapy: Finance Mr Simon Burns: Available figures for expenditure from the Department’s central research and development Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health budgets on research relating to prion decontamination with reference to section 6.12 of his Department’s report and variant Creutzfeldt Jakob disease (vCJD) blood on Improving outcomes: a strategy for cancer (1) which tests are shown in the following table. NHS hospital trusts have applied for additional investment for radiotherapy in 2011-12; [54764] £ million 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 (2) what criteria he proposes for hospitals to be eligible for additional investment for radiotherapy; Prion 0.6 0.6 0.2 0.1 0.1 [54765] decontamination (3) what estimate he has made of the proportion of vCJD 0.0 0.0 1.0 1.0 0.4 blood tests additional investment for radiotherapy which will be available during the current financial year. [54767] 1269W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1270W

Paul Burstow: “Improving Outcomes:” A Strategy for Species Not stunned Cancer sets out our commitment to expand radiotherapy capacity by investing over £150 million in additional Ducks 610 funding over the next four years. This will support increased utilisation of existing equipment, establish More recent data collected by the EU Dialrel project: new services to increase capacity in some areas and http://www.dialrel.eu/images/factsheet-assesment- ensure that all high priority patients with a need for practices.pdf proton beam therapy treatment get access to it abroad. shows that, of the UK abattoirs surveyed, 100% of the This additional funding was included in the financial animals and birds slaughtered for the production of settlement for the spending review (SR) period 2011-12 kosher meat were slaughtered without prior stunning. to 2014-15 and will be included in primary care trust For halal meat, 25% of cattle and 7% of sheep were baseline allocations, alongside the existing funding for slaughtered without prior stunning. The Dialrel data radiotherapy. Around 10%, of the additional funding also indicates that no poultry were slaughtered for halal across the SR period is due to be made available in production without stunning. 2011-12. There is no data available on mis-stunning. The “NHS Operating Framework 2011-12” states that the national health service is expected to implement Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control the new cancer strategy and that commissioners should Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for develop plans to ensure that local populations have Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will place appropriate access to radiotherapy treatment. in the Library a copy of (a) advice officials have Suicide provided to Ministers in her Department and (b) information held by her Department on the granting of Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health licences to volunteers to shoot badgers in areas affected pursuant to the answer of 1 February 2011, Official by bovine tuberculosis; and if she will make a statement. Report, column 765W, on suicide, when he plans to [54665] publish his Department’s suicide prevention strategy. Mr Paice: It is not usual practice for officials’ advice [54768] to Ministers to be published in the House Library. The consultation document published in September Paul Burstow: We are postponing the publication of 2010 was placed in the House Library and outlines the the suicide prevention strategy to take into account Government’s proposal for a badger control policy, changes made to the national health service modernisation including the granting of culling licences. programme, as a result of the Government’s NHS listening exercise and the report from the NHS future I must emphasise that no decision has yet been taken forum. on whether to permit badger culling. We received a large number of responses to our recently concluded consultation, which we are considering carefully. This is a difficult and sensitive issue and we need to get it right. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS We will announce our decision as part of a comprehensive and balanced TB eradication programme for England, Animals: Slaughterhouses as soon as possible.

Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Common Fisheries Policy Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate she has made of the number of animals (a) slaughtered Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for without stunning and (b) which suffered a mis-stunning Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent in the last year for which figures are available. [54886] discussions her Department has had on reform of the common fisheries policy. [54942] Mr Paice: The most recent data on the slaughter of Richard Benyon: As UK Fisheries Minister I, and my animals without prior stunning was published in March officials, have had discussions with a range of organisations 2004 by the Meat Hygiene Service in its Animal Welfare and people about common fisheries policy (CFP) reform. Review. The data was collected through a survey of These include the EU Commission and other members meat plants between 1 and 7 September 2003. The states at the Fisheries Council on 14 April. We have also following table shows the number of animals killed over met representatives of the fishing industry—both large that period without prior stunning for the production scale and under 10 metre fleets, retailers, and non- of kosher and halal meat: government organisations. Species Not stunned We plan to have further discussions in pressing our case for radical reform of the CFP. Cattle 365 Calves 8 Countryside: Access Young lambs 6,845 Other sheep 11,454 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Goats 62 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many miles Broilers 167,745 of public access network have been available in each of Hens 15,900 the last three years; and how many are forecast to be available in (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13 and (c) 2013-14; Turkeys 749 and if she will make a statement. [54393] 1271W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1272W

Richard Benyon: The management of public rights of and Aquaculture Science and two non-departmental way is the responsibility of local highway authorities in public bodies, Natural England and the Marine England. The Government do not gather annual figures Management Organisation. on the public access network, but it is estimated that in It should be noted that as part of our efficiency drive England there are currently approximately 119,550 miles the provision of internal planting is being written out of of public rights of way comprising: footpaths (91,250 the grounds maintenance contract. miles); bridleways (22,250 miles); restricted byways (3750 miles); and byways open to all traffic (2,300 miles). Departmental Rail Travel Further public access in the countryside is available, for example under agri-environment schemes and permissive Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for access granted by the landowner. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many first Departmental Manpower class rail journeys were undertaken by staff in her Department between April 2010 and April 2011; and what the total cost was of such journeys. [53164] Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the most Richard Benyon: The information is as follows: recent previous employment was of senior staff newly employed on fixed-term contracts in her Department Number £ since May 2010. [34637] Department for 643 130,973 Richard Benyon: The Department for Environment, Environment, Food And Food and Rural Affairs has appointed two senior staff Rural Affairs on fixed-term appointments since May 2010. Before Animal Health 18 2,273 joining DEFRA, the most recent employment of one Veterinary Laboratories 42 7,217 Agency was as a Director of Hyder Consulting and the other as Centre for Environment 14 2,684 Head of Biological and Biomedical Sciences at Durham Fisheries and Aquaculture University. Science Departmental Pensions Rural Payments Agency 251 52,532 Rpa UK Co-ordinating 37 11,825 Body Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Veterinary Medicines Nil Nil Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion Directorate of her Department’s budget she expects to be spent on Food and Environment 53 5,162 staff pensions in each of the next five years. [54562] Research Agency

Richard Benyon: The following table shows pension Core DEFRA: contributions for the core Department and its executive agencies, expressed as a percentage of DEFRA’s total Of the total cost of the core DEFRA journeys, 81% DEL budget for 2011-12 until 2014-15. of this spend was incurred during the first three months of the year with significant reductions in volume and Percentage cost of first class travel being made in the following nine months. 2011-12 1.93 The data above is from the departments travel 2012-13 1.66 management supplier and does not include 1st class 2013-14 1.78 journeys that may have been taken, paid for by their 2014-15 1.88 own resources and claimed by staff through the expenses system. In addition, the figures do not include expense These figures are based on analysis undertaken for claims by staff for upgrades to 1st class. To identify and the spending review and, as such, are subject to variation validate individual expenses transactions would incur based on the actual numbers and profile of staff that disproportionate cost. leave over that period. There are no figures available for CEFAS: 2015-16, as no DEL budget has been agreed beyond the current spending review period. These include journeys undertaken in the fulfilment of non-government customer contracts, Animal Health— Departmental Plants All these journeys occurred before 4 June 2010. FERA: Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Most of these journeys were either reimbursed by the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her customer as part of a project or on other occasions Department has spent on indoor and outdoor plants were the lowest possible fare for that journey. and trees since her appointment. [48424] RPA: Richard Benyon: The Department for Environment, Of the total cost of the RPA journeys, 87% of this Food and Rural Affairs for the period of May 2010 to spend was incurred during the first three months of the February 2011 has incurred expenditure of £5,070 on year with significant reductions in volume and cost of indoor and outdoor plants. This includes four of our first class travel being made in the following nine months. agencies, Animal Health, Veterinary Laboratories Agency, For the first class rail journeys undertaken by staff in Rural Payments Agency, the Food and Environment the UK Co-ordinating Body between 1 April 2010 and Research Agency and the Centre for Environment, Fisheries 31 March 2011, full reimbursement of £10,608.59 for 1273W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1274W

26 of these journeys was made by the European the public forest estate in England; and what contribution Commission. The cost of the remaining 11 journeys staff in (a) the Forestry Commission and (b) her was £1,216.30. This spend was incurred during the first Department made to the drafting. [54397] three months of the year and there was nil expenditure on first class travel in the remaining nine months of the Mr Paice [holding answer 9 May 2011]: The Forestry year. Commission and DEFRA provided advice and jointly drafted the consultation document. The Forestry Elephants: Ivory Commission produced the design and layout of the final document. Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Rabbits Department is taking to discourage future legal ivory sales within the Convention on International Trade in Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Endangered Species framework. [54924] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make it her policy to ensure that her Department collects and Richard Benyon: I refer the hon. Member to the reply publishes statistics on rabbit farming in a manner similar I gave to the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr to statistics for other farmed species. [54535] Betts) on 4 May 2011, Official Report, column 784W. Mr Paice: Levels of rabbit production are too low to Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for justify the collection and publication of statistics in a Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what support her manner similar to other farmed species. Department is providing through international Seas and Oceans organisations to reduce the level of poaching of elephants in Central and West Africa. [54925] Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: The UK as a party to the convention Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion on international trade in endangered species (CITES) of the seabed off the coastline of the UK has been supports its efforts to maintain or enhance countries’ mapped. [54849] enforcement capabilities. In the second half of May, the UK will be participating in a CITES-organised rhino Richard Benyon: Approximately 10% of the UK and elephant enforcement task force meeting which will continental shelf is mapped from survey data. The exchange intelligence reports and methodologies and remaining 90% is derived from habitat modelling. develop strategies to tackle the illegal trade in both Trees: Diseases animals across their ranges. Fisheries: East of England Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of the effects on forests of diseases Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for affecting pine trees; what research her Department has Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on such diseases; assessment she has made of the effects of cormorant what steps she is taking to prevent their spread; and if predation on recreational and commercial fisheries in she will make a statement. [54756] the East of England; and if she will make a statement. [41429] Mr Paice: The most significant disease of pines in Richard Benyon: There have been no recent scientific England is red band needle blight caused by a fungal assessments of the effects of cormorant predation on pathogen. This disease was first reported in the 1950s, recreational and commercial fisheries in the east of when it was rare, but the disease has become more England. However, licences to shoot cormorants, typically widespread since the late 1990s. The Forestry. Commission as an aid to scaring, are issued on a case by case basis at has carried out extensive forest surveys over the last sites where there is evidence of serious damage to 10 years and the disease is now found across the whole fisheries or a risk of serious damage occurring. In the of Britain. most recent licensing period for which statistics are The Forestry Commission’s research programme-includes available (September 2009 to April 2010), 44 such licences, annual disease surveys, increasing our understanding of permitting a total of 211 cormorants to be killed, were the fungal biology to aid management decisions, tests issued in the east of England. on the susceptibility of alternative species, and studying I announced at the Angling and Fisheries Summit on the impact of changing forest management practices on the 25 January 2011 that the Government are to review the incidence and severity of the disease. the current licensing regime for cormorants. It is important A full pest risk assessment has been undertaken. The to ensure the licensing regime delivers the conservation disease is most damaging on Corsican and lodgepole benefits needed, while also ensuring that where fish pine, while the native Scots pine is moderately susceptible. stocks are threatened swift action can be taken. The impact of the disease is to reduce tree growth rates, which can occasionally result in mortality. Forests There is a moratorium on planting Corsican pine on the public forest estate and the use of lodgepole pine is Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for minimal. Future policy and research is directed by a Environment, Food and Rural Affairs who was responsible Great Britain programme board that includes representation for drafting the consultation document on the future of from the forest industry. 1275W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1276W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent steps his Carbon Emissions Department has taken with its international counterparts to support a transition to a low carbon Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for global economy. [54906] Energy and Climate Change whether he expects the extension targets contained within Statutory Instrument Gregory Barker: The Department engages in multiple No. 1958 (2010) concerning the Electricity and Gas Act energy and climate change fora, including bilateral and (Carbon Emissions Reduction) Amendment Order 2010 multilateral initiatives, in support of a move to a low will be met by the stated date; and if he will make a carbon global economy. statement. [55291] Through the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) and other informal Gregory Barker: Yes, the statutory targets on suppliers dialogues, the Department engages in the negotiations enforced under this legislation were set to be challenging on the key issues towards delivering an ambitious global but achievable. In the most recent update on progress to agreement on climate change, essential in underpinning December 2010, the scheme administrators Ofgem reported the transition to a global low carbon economy. that suppliers had achieved 62% of the target of 293 million Other relevant work includes our involvement in the tonnes of lifetime carbon dioxide savings which suggests International Partnership for Energy Efficiency Cooperation that they are on track to deliver 100% before December (IPEEC), the International Renewable Energy Agency 2012. (IRENA), the Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Partnership (REEEP) and the Clean Energy Ministerial. Climate Change: Export Credit Guarantees As an example, on 6 and 7 April 2011 the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), attended Energy and Climate Change whether his Department the Clean Energy Ministerial in Abu Dhabi, a high-level has provided information to the Export Credits Guarantee forum to promote policies and programmes that advance Department (ECGD) on the effects on climate change clean energy technology and encourage the transition of the businesses supported by the ECGD. [54367] to a global clean energy economy.Participating governments account for more than 80% of global energy consumption Gregory Barker: DECC has not provided information and a similar percentage of the market for clean energy to ECGD on the effects on climate change of the technologies. business it has supported in the past. DECC is consulted when ECGD is asked to support new projects which Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State have been categorised as having high potential for Energy and Climate Change what incentives his environmental impacts (Category A) as defined in the Department provides for businesses to adopt low OECD Recommendation on Common Approaches on carbon alternatives. [54908] the Environment and Officially Supported Export Credits which regulates the basis upon which Export Credit Gregory Barker: The following incentives are available Agencies address environmental, social and human rights for businesses seeking to adopt low carbon alternatives: impacts of projects. Feed-in Tariffs (FITs) provide financial support for small-scale, low-carbon electricity generation from eligible technologies. Environment Protection Enhanced Capital Allowances (ECAs) provide businesses with 100% tax relief on qualifying energy-saving equipment in the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State same tax year as the purchase is made. for Energy and Climate Change what recent steps his The Carbon Reduction Commitment (CRC) Energy Efficiency Department has taken to support a transition towards scheme provides a mix of financial and reputational drivers to encourage large public and private sector organisations to a low carbon economy. [54905] improve their energy efficiency. Gregory Barker: The Government are committed to The Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) announced in creating the right framework for businesses to drive March, will also provide a financial incentive for businesses growth in the low-carbon economy. to install renewable heating such as biomass boilers, heat pumps and solar thermal panels, thereby reducing The recent Plan for Growth set out a number of their dependence on fossil fuels. measures specifically designed to support the UK’s transition to a low carbon economy. These include the In the future, the Green Deal (GD) will encourage introduction of a carbon price floor from April 2013 to businesses to make energy efficiency improvements financed encourage greater investment in low carbon power; through savings from energy bills. funding of Carbon Capture and Storage demonstration plant from general taxation; supporting the infrastructure Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State development needed to enable the transition through for Energy and Climate Change what recent steps his the Green Investment Bank; and promoting the Department has taken to encourage households to development of new markets for green goods and services reduce their levels of carbon dioxide emissions. [54909] through measures such as the Green Deal, installation of smart meters, the Renewable Heat Incentive, Feed-in Gregory Barker: The Government are already Tariffs, incentives to reduce the up-front costs of ultra-low encouraging households to reduce their carbon dioxide emission vehicles and leveraging the Government’s public emissions through a range of current and proposed procurement power to drive these markets. policies. The Community Energy Saving Programme 1277W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1278W

(CESP) and recently extended Carbon Emission Reduction Devolution Funding Target (CERT), both running to the end of 2012 have significant targets to reduce emissions. 15. John Howell: To ask the Secretary of State for This will all pave the way for the Green Deal, set out Wales what progress has been made on the Government’s in the Energy Bill which is currently passing through the commitment to undertake a process similar to the Calman Commons. Under this innovative scheme, millions could Commission on devolution funding; and if she will enjoy warmer homes, save on their energy bills and make a statement. [54366] reduce carbon emissions in the process. The mass rollout of smart meters in homes from 2014 Mrs Gillan: Following the ‘yes’ vote in the referendum to 2019 will give consumers near real-time information on further powers, we have been giving careful thought on energy consumption to help them understand and to the scope and form of such a process. It is something reduce their energy use. that I intend to discuss as soon as possible with the First Minister now that the elections to the National Assembly Furthermore, Feed in Tariffs and the planned Renewable have taken place. Heat Incentive in support of Microgeneration will support households to reduce their carbon footprint.

North Sea Oil EDUCATION Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Departmental Conflict of Interests and Climate Change if he will suspend the consideration of licence applications for deepwater drilling in UK waters until the Oil Spill Prevention and Response Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Advisory Group publishes its final report; and if he will if he will publish the guidance on conflicts of interest make a statement. [55164] issued by his Department to members of independent review panels. [54575] Charles Hendry: The Oil Spill Prevention and Advisory Group aims to identify and address cross industry Mr Gibb: As set out in the regulation policy statement issues with respect to well control and oil spill response provided to the Education Committee on 7 March in the UK in the light of information from the Macondo 2011, regulations will prescribe how independent review accident. Government are fully involved in and supports panels are to be established and the procedures that this work. There is nothing to suggest there is a case for they will follow. They will cover the constitution, training suspending the consideration of licence applications for requirements and ensuring of members’ impartiality. deepwater drilling in UK waters, or for suspending We will consult further on details of the regulations in drilling operations, pending the results of this work, or due course. In addition to this, the Department will also of other relevant investigations or reviews. include a section on independent review panels in revised exclusion guidance when appropriate. We already have one of the most robust environmental and safety regimes in the world, and all new drilling operations are subject to detailed case by case scrutiny Education Maintenance Allowance by my Department and the Health and Safety Executive. Nevertheless, we are not complacent and continue to Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education look for improvements. Which is why we have launched from which of his Department’s budgets the funding an overall review of our regulatory regime which will for the 16-19 bursary and discretionary fund will be report later this year. drawn. [54011]

Mr Gibb [holding answer 4 May 2011]: Funding for the 16-19 bursary (including the discretionary element) WALES will be drawn from the budget for 16-19 financial support. In addition, as part of the budget discussions, the Enterprise Zones Department agreed a call on Treasury reserves for a minority of the funding to help with the new bursary 14. Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme. Wales what recent discussions she has had with the Welsh Assembly Government on the establishment of Education System enterprise zones in Wales. [54365] David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my Education what recent representations he has received right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham from hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies (Mrs Gillan), had initial discussions with the First on his proposals to reform the education system in Minister on the day of the Budget and has since written England. [54614] to him on two occasions setting out our commitment to work with the Welsh Assembly Government to establish Mr Gibb: Since the start of the parliamentary year, enterprise zones in Wales. the Department has received around a 100 letters from Both the Secretary of State and I will continue to hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies. Just champion the creation of enterprise zones in Wales over half of the letters focused primarily on schools with the Welsh Assembly Government now the Welsh policy, and terms and conditions for the school workforce elections have concluded. was the most common subject. Statutory requirements 1279W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1280W for school teachers’ pay and conditions in maintained Examination fees (£) schools are set out in national policy and frameworks covering England and Wales. 2007/08 265,305,320 Other letters asked for Ministers’ comments or response 2006/07 240,861,264 to a constituent’s concern about specific aspects of 2005/06 220,055,512 (devolved) education policy. In a small number of cases, constituents or hon. Members noted that policies would Further Education: Catering not apply in Wales, but were concerned about the implications for people who live near the border, or Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education concerned that the policy for England might set a pursuant to the answer of 26 April 2011, Official Report, precedent which would then be followed in Wales and column 285W, on further education: catering, whether so asked for a UK Government response. he has received reports of any (a) further education The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. and (b) sixth form colleges that do not have (i) kitchens Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), and/or (ii) cafeterias. [54434] has not held formal meetings with any of the hon. Mr Gibb: During discussions with sixth form college Members representing Welsh constituencies since the and further education college principals we have been start of the parliamentary year. made aware that some do not have kitchens and/or Hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies have cafeterias on all sites. Furthermore, many training providers asked 145 parliamentary questions and the hon. Members would not have such facilities for their students. for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) were members of the Commons Education GCE A-Level Bill Committee. Parliamentary questions and answers Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for are available from Hansard, as are records of debate in Education how many and what proportion of GCE the Bill Committee. A-level students were entered for GCE A-level (a) Education: Assessments mathematics and (b) one or more foreign languages in (i) comprehensive schools, (ii) selective schools, (iii) Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for independent schools and (iv) sixth form colleges in the Education how much was paid to examination boards latest period for which figures are available. [53182] by maintained schools in each of the last five years. [53285] Mr Gibb: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 5 April 2011, Official Report, column 786W. Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 April 2011]: The information GCE A-level was based on ″modern foreign languages″. is given in the following table. For consistency, the ″foreign languages″ part of this question has been answered on the same basis, which Examination fees (£) also reflects the data as published in the departmental Statistical First Releases (SFRs). 2009/10 304,936,805 2008/09 282,992,325 The information requested is shown in the following table:

Number of GCE A-level students who were Percentage of GCE A-level students who were entered for entered for Number of students taking Oneormore One or more School type GCE A-levels Mathematics foreign languages Mathematics foreign languages

Comprehensive schools 124,846 26,790 8,432 21 7 Selective schools 22,006 8,251 2,856 37 13 Independent schools 35,245 13,425 6,806 38 19 Sixth-form colleges 52,641 11,178 3,277 21 6 Notes: 1. Figures include ungraded, no award (absent/declined) and pending entries. 2. Students get counted once if they have done more than one A-level in any subject category. 3. Figures are derived from data collected for the 2010 Performance tables.

Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb [holding answer 9 May 2011]: The information Education how many and what proportion of GCSE requested has been placed in the House Libraries. A-level students were entered for at least three GCSE GCSE A-levels in (a) mathematics, (b) English literature, (c) further mathematics, (d) biological sciences, (e) physics, (f) chemistry, (g) geography, (h) history and (i) a Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for modern foreign language in (i) comprehensive schools, Education how many and what proportion of children (ii) selective schools, (iii) independent schools and (iv) (a) in receipt of and (b) not in receipt of free school sixth form colleges (A) nationally and (B) in each local meals attained GCSE grade G or above in (i) English, education authority in the most recent period for which (ii) Mathematics, (iii) Science, (iv) History, (v) figures are available. [54486] Geography and (vi) an ancient or modern language in each local authority in the last academic year for which figures are available. [53726] 1281W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1282W

Mr Gibb: The information requested has been placed 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 in the House Libraries. Nottingham Trent 433 393 356 University Higher Education: Teachers Oxford Brookes 476 507 470 University Roehampton 706 689 636 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education University how many places there were at each higher education Sheffield Hallam 738 778 628 institution in England for initial teacher training in (a) University 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; what his estimate is of the St Mary’s University 572 557 505 number of such places in (i) 2011-12, (ii) 2012-13 and College, Twickenham (iii) 2013-14; and if he will make a statement. [54091] Staffordshire 52 51 41 University Mr Gibb [holding answer 4 May 2011]: The numbers The Open University 216 253 200 of mainstream initial teacher training places allocated University College 30 34 41 to higher education institutions in England for each of Birmingham the academic years 2009/10, 2010/11 and 2011/12 (as at University College 415 394 350 1 May 2011 and may be subject to minor change) are in Plymouth St Mark the table. andStJohn University of Bath 178 166 152 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 University of 482 511 402 Bedfordshire Anglia Ruskin 297 315 241 University of 330 344 316 University Birmingham Bath Spa University 495 479 401 University of 681 728 615 Birmingham City 535 558 501 Brighton University University of Bristol 247 242 208 Bishop Grosseteste 377 401 401 University College University of 439 439 390 Lincoln Cambridge Bradford College 321 320 300 University of 290 276 255 Chester Brunei University 342 325 293 University of 427 438 393 Canterbury Christ 1197 1273 975 Chichester Church University University of 1312 1413 1261 Central School of 36 32 18 Cumbria Speech and Drama University of Derby 183 198 210 Edge Hill University 1332 1375 1206 Goldsmiths 498 504 387 University of 383 369 323 University Durham Institute of 1041 960 837 University of East 352 351 336 Education, Anglia University of University of East 448 476 424 London London Keele University 212 231 198 University of Exeter 597 592 522 King’s College 214 215 190 University of 493 463 363 London Gloucestershire Kingston University 303 309 284 University of 488 490 325 Leeds Metropolitan 253 253 242 Greenwich University University of 401 412 385 Leeds Trinity 319 287 268 Hertfordshire University College University of 175 169 116 Liverpool Hope 816 812 710 Huddersfield University University of Hull 384 392 368 Liverpool John 514 543 365 University of Leeds 359 360 305 Moores University University of 312 309 284 London 295 308 266 Leicester Metropolitan University University of 378 388 344 Manchester London South Bank 240 257 218 University University of 250 232 207 Newcastle Loughborough 130 129 97 University University of 226 232 251 Manchester 1179 1174 1025 Northampton Metropolitan University of 265 261 261 University Nottingham Middlesex University 486 490 388 University of Oxford 190 189 179 Newman University 498 453 412 University of 327 353 377 College Plymouth Northumbria 294 288 308 University of 140 140 110 University Portsmouth 1283W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1284W

Data from local authorities shows that in 2009, 95.9% 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 of 16-year-olds and 89.5% of 17-year-olds received an University of 315 300 255 offer of a place in education or training. In 2010, 96.6% Reading of 16-year-olds and 91.3% of 17-year-olds received an University of 153 148 123 offer of a place. Sheffield University of 451 429 375 Southampton Schools: Nurses University of 411 442 352 Sunderland University of Sussex 170 169 145 Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Education University of the 469 455 399 what recent estimate he has made of the number of West of England full-time equivalent school nurses employed in (a) England, University of 456 464 364 (b) the West Midlands and (c) Walsall South constituency. Warwick [55008] University of 309 324 366 Winchester Mr Gibb: The information shown in the following University of 397 352 312 table is the full-time equivalent numbers of school Wolverhampton nursing staff in England, West Midlands Strategic Health University of 463 487 466 Authority area and Walsall Teaching PCT as at 30 Worcester September 2010. University of York 140 140 128 York St John 395 385 383 Full-time equivalent University West Note: Midlands These figures exclude postgraduate places allocated to school- strategic Walsall centred initial teacher training providers, employment-based health teaching programme and Teach First places. England authority area PCT Source: Training and Development Agency for Schools School nursing 3,512 416 2 Estimates for academic years 2012/13 and 2013/14 are not yet available. Qualified nursing, 3,020 370 1 midwifery and health Pupils: Dyslexia visiting staff Nurse consultant 11 1 — Modern matron 2 — — Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Manager 41 6 — how much funding his Department provides to local Qualified school nurse 1,104 189 5 education authorities for the purposes of assessing dyslexia Other 1st level 1,781 173 8 [54229] in pupils and providing support. Other 2nd level 80 1 — Mr Gibb: Funding data specifically for the purposes Support to doctors and 492 46 8 of assessing dyslexia in pupils and providing support is nursing staff not collected by the Department. However the available Nursery nurse 137 13 4 information on the planned net expenditure on the Nursing assistant/ 356 34 3 provision of education for pupils with special educational auxiliary needs for 2010-11 was £5,477 billion. Notes: 1. The organisation within the Walsall South constituency with School Leaving School nursing staff is Walsall Teaching Primary Care Trust (PCT). 2. Full-time equivalent rounded to the nearest number—zero. 3. Data Quality: The NHS Information Centre for health and social Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for care seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and Education what estimate he has made of the number of invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are continually being people who participated in the September Guarantee in updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures (a) 2009 and (b) 2010. [54554] already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local Mr Gibb [holding answer 9 May 2011]: The Under- level is footnoted in relevant analyses. Source: Secretary of State for Schools, my noble Friend Lord The NHS Information Centre for Health and Social Care Non- Hill of Oareford, wrote to all local authorities on Medical Workforce Census 17 February to make clear that the process of offering 16 and 17-year-olds a suitable place in education or training by the end of September, which has been Sixth Form Colleges: Capital Investment known as the ’September Guarantee’, will continue. This will help to ensure that more young people have Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for the opportunity to continue their education and training Education pursuant to the answer of 22 March 2011, as we move towards full participation of 16 and 17-year-olds Official Report, columns 1048-9W,on sixth-form colleges: by 2015. A copy of this letter is available on the capital investment, which of the sixth form colleges Department’s website at: listed undertook capital works of a monetary value of www.education.gov.uk/offersofeducationandtraining more than £1 million in the last five years. [54383] 1285W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1286W

Mr Gibb: Information held by the YPLA has recorded The coalition Government has not had discussions that 38 sixth form colleges undertook capital works, the about the decision to end this funding with any parties costs of which totalled more than £1 million over the involved. last five years. The following list of the 38 colleges excludes those institutions that are no longer sixth form Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for Education colleges. In addition, some sixth form colleges will have pursuant to the answer of 10 March 2011, Official undertaken capital works that did not require approval Report, column 1234W,on the National Resource Centre and for which the YPLA does not have information. for Supplementary Schools: finance, what assessment Sixth form colleges with projects with a cost of more than his Department has made of the cost effectiveness of £1 million during period of April 2006 to March 2011 funding allocated to the National Resource Centre for Alton College Supplementary Schools in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. Aquinas College [55064] Ashton under Lyne Sixth Form College Blackpool Sixth Form College Mr Gibb: The Department’s Internal Audit Unit has Bolton Sixth Form College examined how the allocated funding was used by the National Resource Centre to ensure it was being spent Cardinal Newman College for the purposes for which it was awarded. No issues Carmel College were identified and no other evaluation of the use of City of Stoke on Trent Sixth Form College this funding has taken place. Coulsdon College Farnborough Sixth Form College Teenage Pregnancy Gateway College Godalming College Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Hartlepool Sixth Form College Education what steps he plans to take to reduce the Havering Sixth Form College incidence of teenage pregnancy; and if he will make a Huddersfield New College statement. [52696] Joseph Chamberlain College Leyton Sixth Form College Sarah Teather: We have made clear the importance of Loreto College local areas continuing to take action to reduce their Luton Sixth Form College teenage pregnancy rates, using the international evidence New College Pontefract and the lessons from areas where teenage pregnancy rates have fallen fastest. This will make a vital contribution Notre Dame Sixth Form College to their local strategies to reduce child poverty and Portsmouth College health inequalities and to improve public health. Queen Mary’s College The Early Intervention Grant provides funding for Reigate College teenage pregnancy and gives areas the flexibility to Sir John Deane’s College co-ordinate their efforts in a way that meets local need. Solihull Sixth Form College These will be local decisions, but we are confident that St Brendan’s Sixth Form College areas will recognise the social and economic benefits of St Charles Sixth Form College continuing to invest in work to reduce teenage pregnancies St Dominic’s Sixth Form College and improve outcomes for teenage parents and their St Mary’s College, Blackburn children. Stockton Sixth Form College At a national level, we believe that it is vital that all Strode’s College children receive high-quality sex and relationships education The College of Richard Collyer in Horsham (SRE), so they can make wise and informed choices. We will shortly be announcing the scope of an internal Thomas Rotherham College review of PSHE to determine how we can support Wilberforce College schools to improve the quality of all PSHE teaching. Woodhouse College Later this year, we will be saying more about teenage Wyggeston and Queen Elizabeth I College pregnancy and sexual health, including improving young Wyke College people’s access and use of contraception, in our proposed Supplementary Schools Youth Policy Statement and Sexual Health Policy Document. Both these documents will be produced in Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for Education consultation with stakeholders to ensure they are helpful pursuant to the answer of 10 March 2011, Official to local areas and support commissioning of effective Report, column 1234W,on the National Resource Centre services. for Supplementary Schools: finance, what discussions his Department has had on the decision to end funding Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for for the National Resource Centre for Supplementary Education when his Department plans to respond to Schools in March 2011. [55063] the Teenage Pregnancy Independent Advisory Group’s final report, published on 14 December 2010. [52697] Mr Gibb: Decisions to end funding for the National Resource Centre for Supplementary Schools in March Sarah Teather: We are grateful to the Teenage Pregnancy 2011 were made and communicated to the Centre under Independent Advisory Group (TPIAG) for its final the previous administration. report. We will be considering the recommendations as 1287W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1288W we develop our Youth Policy Statement and Sexual Mr Gauke: HMRC produces a free basic PAYE tool Health Policy Document, which will be published later for small employers which contains a calculator that this year. will work out the tax due and includes the forms that the Parish council would need to run their payroll throughout the year and make annual returns. It will also allow the council to file any starter and leaver TREASURY forms and their annual return on line. The tool is Departmental Expenditure available to download from the Business Link website. HMRC also offer free workshops at locations throughout Stephen Barclay: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the country covering all payroll topics. These are run by what expenditure (a) his Department and (b) each HMRC’s UK wide network of specially trained Business public body sponsored by his Department incurred on Education and Support Teams and are designed for engaging external audit services in each of the last three everyone especially for new employers. years; and to which service providers such payments HMRC has a team of advisers on the New Employer were made in each year. [43753] Helpline 08457 143 143 who have been specially briefed to deal with enquiries from Parish councils who need to Justine Greening: Details of HM Treasury’s notional operate PAYE for the first time. spending on audit services with the National Audit HMRC’s website also provides wide ranging guidance Office is shown in note 7 ‘Other administration costs’ in especially for new employers on operating PAYE and each year’s Resource Accounts available from: information on above and other help available including www.hm-treasury.gov.uk contact details. Excise Duties: Liquefied Natural Gas I am aware representative bodies also provide help and guidance to councils and clerks who were not operating PAYE before. David Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether industries sourcing liquid natural gas are liable Pensions for a different duty rate from industries sourcing other forms of gas. [54786] Rachel Reeves: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what the average value was of the rebate to an (a) Justine Greening: Natural gas is subject to fuel duty employer and (b) employee of a private sector contracted- at a rate of 24.70 pence per kilogram when intended for out defined benefit scheme in the latest period for which use as a road fuel This duty rate applies to natural gas figures are available; [53069] supplied for road use in compressed gaseous form or the denser liquefied form. Gas supplied for all other (2) if he will estimate the average effect on incomes purposes is free of fuel duty. The import duty rate on all of public sector employees of the end of contracting forms of gas is zero. out for public sector pension schemes. [52978] Natural Gas: Exports Danny Alexander [holding answer 28 April 2011]: The data held by Government on the contracting out David Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer status of members of defined benefit pension schemes whether any tax incentives exist for the export of gas is contained within the National Insurance and PAYE direct from source. [54793] Service (NPS). This data does not differentiate between public and private sector employees and therefore it Justine Greening: There are no tax incentives in the does not provide an indication of the average rebate for UK oil and gas tax regime that incentivise the export of each of these sectors. gas from the UK Continental Shelf over domestic The level of the contracted out rebate is currently set consumption. Companies make decisions on whether at 1.6% for employees and 3.7% for employers. Following to import or export gas based on commercial factors, the Government Actuary’s review of the level of the such as transportation costs and local market prices. contracted out rebate, from April 2012 the level of the rebate will be set at 1.4% for employees and 3.4% for Non-Domestic Rates employers respectively.

Caroline Nokes: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Public Expenditure what plans he has for the future level of charges on rates for business units that are not in use. [54823] Jo Swinson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he plans to amend the Green Book so that Mr Gauke: As with all taxes and reliefs HM Treasury national wellbeing is taken into account when evaluating keeps the application of business rates to empty property Government policies and projects. [53889] under review. Danny Alexander [holding answer 3 May 2011]: The PAYE: Local Government Green Book is HM Treasury guidance for central Government on the appraisal and evaluation of all Mr Brine: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer policies, programmes and projects. In addition to the whether his Department plans to take steps to ensure Green Book itself which sets out the overall framework, that parish council staff are given adequate training there is already a range of supplementary guidance with prior to the commencement of registration of council more detail on how to assess the economic welfare or employees under the PAYE system. [54838] ’wellbeing’ implications of particular types of policy 1289W Written Answers11 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1290W impacts, eg “The Economic and Social Costs of Crime”, Small Businesses “Policy Appraisal and Health”, and “The Valuation of Ecosystem Services”. Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the This supplementary guidance is continually being Exchequer what estimate he has made of the average expanded and updated to take account of the latest monetary value to (a) businesses and (b) small and work and research from both within and outside of medium-sized enterprises of his decision to introduce a government. HMT is currently working with other moratorium exempting micro-business and start-ups Government Departments on a number of pieces of from new domestic regulation for three years with effect new guidance or early stage discussion papers for release from 1 April 2011. [54604] later this year. A discussion paper is planned on the potential use of subjective wellbeing measures in Social Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. Cost Benefit Analysis. The Better Regulation Executive report (BRE), Subjective well-being measures look at the effect that “Lightening the Load”, assessed the impact of regulation a non-market good (such as the environment) has on on the UK’s smallest businesses and identified that new people’s reported overall life satisfaction in order to regulations take the micro-businesses (those with fewer determine the value of that good. More traditional than ten employees) a disproportionate amount of time methods ask people to directly state their willingness to to interpret and comply with—up to six times longer pay for the good, or observe their behaviour in related than a larger business. The moratorium will realise markets. notable time/cost savings for businesses that could be These subjective wellbeing measures are different from better spent growing their business. measures of national wellbeing. Individual policies are The report, “Lightening the Load”, can be found not normally assessed in terms of their influence on here: national measures such as GDP or national wellbeing http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/better-regulation/docs/l/ because of the difficulty of isolating the effect of one 10-1251-lightening-the-load-regulatory-impact-smallest- particular policy on such measures. Individual policies businesses are, instead, normally assessed in terms of their ‘micro’ level costs and benefits or economic welfare effects. Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the National measures may help form part of the wider Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of debate. (a) businesses and (b) small and medium-sized enterprises Public Sector: Borrowing (i) nationally, (ii) in each region, (iii) in each local authority and (iv) in each parliamentary constituency expected to be affected by his decision to introduce a Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer moratorium exempting micro-business and start-ups what recent assessment he has made of the public sector from new domestic regulation for three years with effect borrowing requirement. [54762] from 1 April 2011. [54605]

Danny Alexander: The public sector finances first Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. release published by the Office for National Statistics estimates that the first provisional outturn for public There are approximately 4.6 million micro-businesses sector net borrowing in 2010-11 is £141.1 billion or (fewer than ten employees) in the UK, representing a 9.6% of GDP. This is £15 billion lower than 2009-10. fifth of private sector turnover (21%), more than a third of private sector employment (34%) and almost eight In March 2011 the independent Office for Budget million jobs, who will benefit from this moratorium. Responsibility forecast public sector net borrowing to 2015-16. This forecast is available at: Breakdown of this figure by region/local authority/ http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/economic- parliamentary constituency will be placed in the Libraries and-fiscal-outlook-march-2011 of the House. There are also approximately 168,000 small businesses Renewables Obligation (10-49 employees) and 27,000 medium-sized businesses (50-249 employees) in the UK. Dr Whitehead: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what arrangements he plans to put in place for the VAT: Insurance treatment of variable renewable obligation certificate prices when assessed against any overspend by the Department of Energy and Climate Change within the Conor Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer control framework for levy-funded spending. [54818] what representations he has received on the maintenance of value added tax exemption for outsourced insurance- Justine Greening: Guidance on how the control related services. [54781] framework operates is available on both Treasury and Department for Energy and Climate Change websites. Mr Gauke: Discussions concerning an EU Commission The links to both documents are as follows: Proposal that would modernise the VAT exemption for http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ financial and insurance services including the issue of psr_controlframework_decc.htm the VAT treatment of outsourcing in the insurance http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/ sector have taken place with many UK stakeholders for uk_supply/energy/mix/renewable/renewable.aspx several years and are continuing.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 11 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 1154 WALES—continued Computer Sciences Corporation ...... 1163 Council Tax Benefit ...... 1145 Engagements...... 1154 Departmental Efficiency Savings...... 1148 Engagements...... 1163 Devolution Funding...... 1145 Great Western Main Line...... 1151 WALES...... 1145 Health and Social Care Bill...... 1150 Big Society Initiatives...... 1148 Nuclear Industry...... 1153 Broadband Infrastructure ...... 1149 Tourism Promotion...... 1152 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 11 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 37WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 38WS Employment Laws Review ...... 37WS Justice and Home Affairs Council...... 38WS Restructuring Moratorium (Consultation)...... 37WS JUSTICE...... 40WS Prison Service Pay Review Body ...... 40WS HEALTH...... 38WS TRANSPORT ...... 40WS Addiction to Medicine ...... 38WS Road Safety ...... 40WS PETITION

Wednesday 11 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 21P NHS Reforms ...... 21P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 11 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 1205W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1254W Departmental Pensions ...... 1205W Archaeology: Graduates ...... 1254W Arts: Disadvantaged ...... 1254W British Sky Broadcasting...... 1254W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1248W Broadband ...... 1254W Arms Trade...... 1248W Departmental Pensions ...... 1255W Environment Protection: Coventry ...... 1249W Departmental Work Experience...... 1255W Further Education: Manchester...... 1249W English Heritage: Bexley ...... 1256W Marketing: Arts ...... 1251W English Heritage: Religious Buildings ...... 1256W Postal Services...... 1251W Football Licensing Authority...... 1256W Prisoners: Education...... 1252W Gambling...... 1257W Startup Britain...... 1253W Gaming Machines: Coastal Areas...... 1257W Supermarkets: Competition ...... 1253W Members: Correspondence ...... 1257W Television...... 1257W CABINET OFFICE...... 1264W Departmental Manpower...... 1264W DEFENCE...... 1205W Financial Ombudsman Service...... 1264W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 1205W Members: Correspondence ...... 1265W Armed Forces: Recruitment ...... 1206W Minimum Wage: Greater London...... 1265W France: Military Alliances...... 1206W Pensions: Complaints...... 1265W HMS Albion ...... 1207W Rural Areas...... 1266W HMS Liverpool...... 1207W Voting Rights: Prisoners ...... 1266W HMS Ocean ...... 1207W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 1208W Navy: Redundancy...... 1208W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 1235W Strategic Defence and Security Review ...... 1208W Clergy: Gender...... 1235W Syria: Iran...... 1209W Col. No. Col. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 11 May 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1145] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Future Diplomatic Network [Col. 1165] Statement—(Mr Hague)

Planning (Grade 1 Agricultural Land Protection) [Col. 1184] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Laura Sandys)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Education Bill [Col. 1187] As amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base [Col. 1282] Motion—(Justine Greening)—agreed to

Charter for Budget Responsibility [Col. 1305] Motion—(Justine Greening)—agreed to

Back to Work Agenda [Col. 1323] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall State Pension Age (Women) [Col. 417WH] Car Insurance Premiums [Col. 443WH] Legal Aid [Col. 451WH] Avon Ring Road (M4 Link) [Col. 477WH] Women Offender One-stop Shops [Col. 484WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 37WS]

Petition [Col. 21P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1205W] [see index inside back page]