Wednesday Volume 518 10 November 2010 No. 68

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 10 November 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 269 10 NOVEMBER 2010 270

Mr Swire: Of course the Prime Minister continues to House of Commons take an interest in Northern Ireland. The food, drink and tobacco sectors account for 45% of total sales and Wednesday 10 November 2010 46% of external sales. These figures could and should increase, and the Secretary of State and I will work with The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock the devolved Administration, in whatever way we are asked, to support any incentive of that kind.

PRAYERS Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Will the Secretary of State commit to making representations to the Treasury [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] regarding alterations to how tobacco tax is lifted, so that the Treasury can receive a bigger taxation take while allowing the industry to invest in securing jobs in Oral Answers to Questions Northern Ireland? Mr Swire: The hon. Gentleman has in his constituency the Gallaher Group, which my right hon. Friend the NORTHERN IRELAND Secretary of State visited recently. The loss to the economy from contraband cigarettes and forfeited The Secretary of State was asked— duty is in the region of £2 billion to £3 billion a year. We should consider that closely, and continue to make Exports representations in that regard.

1. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Is the Minister What recent discussions he has had with ministerial as concerned as those of us who come from Northern colleagues on the contribution of Northern Ireland to Ireland that recent reports show a third quarter fall in the Government’s programmes to increase the level of growth in the private sector in Northern Ireland, and exports for the purposes of international trade. [22147] will he therefore redouble his efforts to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy more effectively? The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and Mr Swire: Clearly, Northern Ireland is not immune I have had regular discussions with ministerial colleagues to what is going on in the rest of the world—one has in Northern Ireland on economic development issues. only to look over the border at what is going on in We will continue to work with the Executive to rebalance Ireland to see that. We work very closely with Northern the Northern Ireland economy and grow the private Ireland on rebalancing the economy and we have the sector. support of the Finance Minister, who, along with the David Morris: Does the Minister agree that the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Industry, is meeting inspirational visit to China by the Prime Minister shows the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs this that we should redouble our efforts on exporting? afternoon to discuss corporation tax. We must leave no stone unturned in our attempts to rebalance Northern Mr Swire: Yes, I certainly do. Invest Northern Ireland Ireland’s economy and, critically, to provide well-paid has recently led trade missions to Brazil, South Africa and sustainable jobs. and Vietnam, and 35 Northern Ireland companies from across the sector went with it. What is going on in Mr Speaker: Unless I am mistaken, the hon. Member China should work as an incentive to others to export. for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) did not Let me pay tribute to a company that I visited the other put a supplementary question to the substantive question. day in Ballymena—and I see that thehon. Member for If he did he can nod his head, but if he did not, he North Antrim (Ian Paisley) is present. Wrightbus has should do so. just supplied 450 double-decker buses to Singapore and has won the design project for the replacement of the iconic David Morris indicated assent. Routemaster bus here in . The answer to rebalancing part of the Northern Irish economy is to get— Mr Speaker: He did; he is happy. He is sanguine about it. Mr Speaker: Order. That answer is too long. The Minister will resume his seat, and he must not repeat The Disappeared that. 2. (South Staffordshire) (Con): Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I thank What recent progress has been made on locating the the Minister for his answer. Given the need to provide disappeared. [22148] growth in the Northern Ireland economy and ensure jobs and investment, can he provide assurances to the The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo House that the Prime Minister, on his current trade Swire): In July, Commission for the mission to China, is aware not only of the need to Location of Victims’ Remains successfully recovered rebalance the economy in Northern Ireland but of the the remains of Charlie Armstrong, and it awaits DNA products that could be exported as part of international confirmation regarding remains it believes to be those trade—and also of the fact that the Government are of Gerard Evans and Peter Wilson. This would take the about to publish a paper on the Northern Ireland total number of disappeared who have been located to economy and corporation tax? nine. 271 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 272

Gavin Williamson: Is it still the case that the ICLVR is Mr Swire: The hon. Lady is entirely correct, but she to be wound up at the end of this year? must understand that the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office in these matters is limited, and quite Mr Swire: May I pay tribute to the excellent work of properly so. The ICLVR is an independent organisation the ICLVR, particularly Geoff Knupfer and Jon Hill, and responds to intelligence provided to it—very often who do such good work, as I have seen for myself? I met anonymous intelligence. I hope that it will listen to what the Wilson family just before the find was announced, the hon. Lady has said, but it will respond only when and I can testify to the very serious effect that it has on the intelligence comes. I hope that those who have any families who have waited for many, many years to find understanding or any knowledge will bring that knowledge somewhere to put their loved ones in a grave and go and forward. see them regularly. That achieves closure for many people. The commission is a joint initiative between the Barnett Formula Funding Irish and the British Governments. It is led entirely by intelligence, and we will continue to be led by intelligence— 3. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): What recent discussions he has had with Mr Speaker: Order. The Minister will have to practise. private sector companies in Northern Ireland on the He is far too long-winded, and that has got to change. effects on them of changes in Barnett formula funding for Northern Ireland consequent upon the outcomes of Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab): The Minister refers to the the comprehensive spending review. [22149] recovery of remains, which is a painful reminder of the need to deal with the legacy of the past in Northern The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Ireland. If the Secretary of State decides to place any Swire): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and new obligations on the Historical Enquiries Team, will I have regular discussions with people from the private he ensure that it is fully and properly funded to undertake sector in Northern Ireland. I have found a widespread them? recognition that the public sector can and should respond by delivering better value, and support for the objective Mr Swire: The two bodies are entirely different. We that we and the Executive share of rebalancing the believe that the HET is a good organisation and should Northern Ireland economy. be properly resourced, as we believe it represents the way forward. Tom Greatrex: The Minister will be aware of the recent report from PricewaterhouseCoopers stating that Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The whole 36,000 jobs will be lost in Northern Ireland as a result House will think fondly of that gallant soldier Captain of the Government’s policies—20,000 in the public Robert Nairac of the Grenadier Guards, who was so sector and a further 16,000 in the private sector. What brutally killed by the IRA. Does the Minister have any estimate has he made of the cost to the taxpayer of up-to-date information about whether his remains may those 36,000 people currently in work being made yet be discovered? unemployed by the Government’s policies?

Mr Swire: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention Mr Swire: The hon. Gentleman was not in the House to that. Alas, Captain Nairac is not alone. A considerable at the time, but these are not the Conservative and number of bodies have yet to be located, which we hope Liberal Democrat parties’ cuts. These are Labour’s cuts— will happen in due course. [Interruption.] Northern Ireland has done better out of the spending review than it was led to believe would have been the case under the previous Government. It is Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The in the interests of everybody in the House to talk up Minister has already referred to the winding up of the Northern Ireland, to attract inward investment and to commission dealing with the disappeared. Does he think rebalance the economy so that it is not so dependent on that is wise, and does he think it is wise also to wind up the public sector. That is the way forward for Northern the Independent Monitoring Commission, given the Ireland, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will support us ongoing paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland? on that.

Mr Swire: The right hon. Gentleman may have misheard (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Does the me. I have not said that we will wind up the former. Minister agree that to reform the Barnett formula, all With reference to the latter, we announced that there the devolved nations would need to agree to a process, would be one more valedictory report. It was established and that if one nation, such as the Scottish Government, in the first place to monitor the connections between refused to participate in that process, that would be elected representatives and paramilitaries. We believe showing disrespect to all the others? that that is no longer appropriate or necessary. Mr Swire: Of course I am aware of the House of Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Would the Minister Lords Select Committee report on the Barnett formula, kindly give me a commitment that fresh efforts will be the Holtham Commission on Welsh funding and other made to retrieve my young constituent, Lisa Dorrian, commentators on the system of devolution funding. At who was murdered and disappeared by those with loyalist present we are trying to get the public finances under paramilitary connections five years ago? That is five control to get the economy moving again. Any change long Christmases for the family, who deserve closure. in the system of funding the devolved Administrations What fresh efforts are being made to retrieve her body? must wait for the stabilisation of the public finances. 273 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 274

Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): One of the Mr Paterson: We have been absolutely clear that we impacts on the private sector will be the huge reduction will stand by Northern Ireland. We will do what is of 40% in capital spending over the next four years, and necessary to bear down on that threat, but the first port there is disagreement about whether the settlement honours of call is for the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable the St Andrews agreement settlement on capital spending. to negotiate with the Executive on the very substantial In the one area where there is dispute, does the capital allocation of public money that has been granted to settlement for Northern Ireland include capital spending them in the spending round. on the police? Is that part of the Minister’s assessment of the total capital budget for Northern Ireland? Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): The Select Committee on Northern Ireland met the assistant Mr Swire: The hon. Gentleman knows that under the commissioner of the Garda two days ago, and he assured previous Government the reduction was likely to be us that in spite of the financial difficulties in Ireland 50% of capital expenditure. Under us it is 37% over four they would continue to police the border, in particular, years. In response to his comments on policing and in the same way. He said that there would be absolutely justice, I can tell him that we stand by the commitments. no reduction in their efforts. Can the Secretary of State As he knows, the Northern Ireland Executive’s capital give us the same assurance today? allocation of £3.3 billion over the spending review period will permit those costs to be met, but there will Mr Paterson: Emphatically yes. We have exceptional be difficult decisions, and unfortunately it is up to the co-operation with the Garda, and I should like to hon. Gentleman, as the Finance Minister at Stormont, congratulate them on their seizure of a significant amount to make those difficult decisions. It is up to him and the of armaments at Dunleer woods in County Louth. Executive, and I support his attempts to get them to Emphatically yes: we will work extremely closely with form a budget. them and match their effort. (Harlow) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that the people of Northern Ireland will welcome Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): the cut in business taxes, which will create real private The Secretary of State will be aware of the deteriorating sector jobs, and the coalition Government’s action to security situation in parts of Northern Ireland due to deal with the £120 million a day in interest and debt that the dissident threat. Will he be open to an approach, we are paying? should it be required, for additional resources to deal with that threat as it materialises over the winter months? Mr Swire: Yes, of course. Northern Ireland, like other parts of the United Kingdom, will benefit from Mr Paterson: We have been clear, from the early those actions, which the incoming Government took negotiations that I had with the shadow Secretary of very quickly. Beyond that, however, we are thinking State, when he was Secretary of State, that we would about how, in the long term, we can stop the dependency endorse the very substantial policing settlement that the on the public sector, which is disproportionate in Northern previous Government negotiated with the Northern Ireland. In that context, one way forward will be to look Ireland Executive. That was quite clear. Should there be at the whole issue of corporation tax. security pressure, and should the security position deteriorate, it would be right for the Justice Minister Comprehensive Spending Review and the Chief Constable to come to us and ask for 4. Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): contributions from the national reserve. What assessment he has made of the likely effects on security in Northern Ireland of the outcomes of the Security Situation comprehensive spending review; and if he will make a statement. [22150] 5. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What his most recent assessment is of the level of threat posed by The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen terrorist groups in Northern Ireland. [22151] Paterson): Following the outcome of the 2010 spending review, it is for the Northern Ireland Executive to decide how funds are allocated to the Northern Ireland 7. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): What his Departments. It will be for the Northern Ireland Justice most recent assessment is of the security situation in Minister and the Chief Constable of the Police Service Northern Ireland. [22153] of Northern Ireland, in the first instance, to negotiate the PSNI budget with the Executive. My right hon. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Friend the Prime Minister and I have made it clear that Paterson): The threat level in Northern Ireland remains we will protect the people of our country from the at severe. We are not complacent, but I am pleased to terrorist threat with every means at our disposal. tell the House that this year, following eight further arrests this morning, there have been 199 arrests and Gemma Doyle: I thank the Secretary of State for his 71 persons have been charged with terrorist offences. response. He will appreciate that people in Northern That compares with 106 arrests and 17 charges in the Ireland and throughout the UK will be concerned about whole of 2009. I commend the security forces for their the impact of spending cuts on peace and security in continued successes in frustrating the efforts of residual Northern Ireland. Can he assure the House that the terrorist groups. The coalition Government are committed comprehensive spending review will not impact on front-line to continuing to promote peace, stability and economic community policing in Northern Ireland? That is something prosperity in Northern Ireland, and standing firmly that the Minister stopped short of saying in response to behind the agreements negotiated and the institutions an earlier question. that they established. 275 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 276

Andrew Stephenson: I thank my right hon. Friend for commitment that the Northern Ireland Executive would that answer. The national security strategy has highlighted have access to the reserve. Can the Secretary of State the fact that there have been 37 separate attacks this confirm that he continues to stand by that commitment, year, so the threat from residual terrorist groups remains without any new conditions being imposed by the Treasury? high. What steps is he taking to combat that threat? Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman Mr Paterson: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s for his question. I have said this already, but I am happy question. We have taken this to the highest level of to look him in the eye and repeat it. Should the security Government. We presented a paper to the National situation deteriorate, then—according to the agreement Security Council, and as a result of that, the threat from that the previous Government, in which he was Secretary Northern Ireland has been put in tier 1 in the national of State, made with the then Executive—the Justice security strategy. Minister and the Chief Constable have the right to approach the Government with a clear strategy on Ian Murray: The latest Independent Monitoring security grounds in order to call on the national reserve. Commission report highlights the continuing involvement of dissident republicans in very serious levels of criminal Mr Woodward: I am grateful for that reply. We all activity. Will the Minister assure the House that all note the decision to raise the threat level here in Great resources will be made available to ensure that that Britain, and the Secretary of State can be assured that threat does not continue? the Opposition fully support the decision to address the problems created by that threat. Given the level of Mr Paterson: I repeat again that we are working recent attacks in Northern Ireland, including the recent extremely closely with the devolved Administration and use of a hand grenade, and given the need for the the Dublin Government on bearing down on this threat, response to be measured, proportionate and joined up, and we will do what is necessary. would a request by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to meet the Prime Minister as soon as possible Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Will the be fully supported by the Secretary of State? Secretary of State acknowledge the deep anger among all sections of the community in Northern Ireland at Mr Paterson: The Prime Minister made regular visits the growing level of attacks by paramilitaries—with, to Northern Ireland when he was Leader of the Opposition. indeed, activity on both sides, but particularly among He met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister dissident republicans? People are looking for action to then, to discuss a broad range of issues. He intends to be taken, and for co-operation between the agencies for go back to Northern Ireland, and at that time he will which he is responsible and the Northern Ireland Executive have the opportunity to discuss matters with them. If to deal with this problem urgently. the right hon. Gentleman is referring specifically to the budget settlement, it is appropriate that the First Minister Mr Paterson: The right hon. Gentleman is right to and Deputy First Minister first discuss that with me, make that comment. That is why we produced a substantial having done their utmost to come to an agreement and paper for the National Security Council, which was consensus in the Executive on a budget for the substantial discussed at the highest level; and that is why we are funds that have been allocated to them in this spending working so closely with the devolved Administration round. and the Justice Minister, to whom I spoke this morning, and the Government in Dublin. We are determined to Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill work at all levels to end this security problem. 6. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): What discussions Mr Dodds: I thank the Secretary of State for his he has had with ministerial colleagues on the answer, and acknowledge the work that he is doing in implications for Northern Ireland of the provisions of terms of the tier 1 level of threat assessment in Northern part 2 of the Parliamentary Voting System and Ireland. However, the fact that the recent bomb find at Constituencies Bill. [22152] East Midlands airport happened on the same day as a bomb find at Belfast City airport shows the level of The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo threat against citizens right across the United Kingdom. Swire): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and Can we be assured that while the threat of al-Qaeda is a I have had regular discussions with ministerial colleagues priority, the threat in Northern Ireland is also treated as and with elected representatives in Northern Ireland on a top priority? the provisions of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, and will continue to do so as the Mr Paterson: The right hon. Gentleman is right to Bill continues its progress through both Houses. point out that these threats affect us all in the United Kingdom. That is why the threat from Northern Ireland Mark Durkan: Does the Minister recognise that as it has been placed in the No. 1 category—in tier 1. stands, part 2 of the Bill has serious implications for the Northern Ireland Assembly, whose constituencies are Mr (St Helens South and Whiston) meant to be coterminous with parliamentary constituencies? (Lab): The Secretary of State and his right hon. Friend Reviews every five years that could put those constituencies the Prime Minister gave an unambiguous undertaking out of cycle, or change the total number of constituencies before the Hillsborough Castle agreement that the previous in Northern Ireland, will be hugely unsettling. Will he Government’s financial arrangements for the devolution take steps to ensure that full consideration is undertaken of policing and justice would be upheld. In relation to with the authorities in the Northern Ireland Assembly, the security situation, this unequivocally included a as well as with his ministerial colleagues? 277 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 278

Mr Swire rose—[Interruption.] Mr Paterson: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for his question, and for his interest in Northern Ireland Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the Minister’s affairs. I do not think I can give a better example than reply. the fact that the current Chief Constable always had good relations with his neighbour when he was chief Mr Swire: Thank you, Mr Speaker. constable of Leicestershire, but has said that his relations The hon. Gentleman raised this matter during the with Fachtna Murphy, the Garda commissioner, are passage of the Bill. It is true that coterminosity between even better. I should like publicly to pay tribute to the parliamentary and Assembly seats has worked well, Fachtna Murphy, who is, sadly, retiring at the end of the and the amended rules can continue to provide for the year. He has been a great friend of Northern Ireland. Electoral Commission to take that into account. I should The collaboration between the Garda and the PSNI is say to him that as he knows, the size of the Assembly is at an exceptional level, and I look forward to helping it up to the Assembly, not to Parliament or to this House continue. through the Bill. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): The Secretary Presbyterian Mutual Society of State will be aware of the recent series of dissident republican operations in my constituency, including the 8. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/ bomb at a railway bridge and a previous bomb that Co-op): When the Government plan to disburse their almost killed three local children. Does he share the proposed financial assistance to savers with the Chief Constable’s current assessment of the levels of Presbyterian Mutual Society. [22154] resources and manpower available to the PSNI? The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Mr Paterson: I am grateful for that question. I am also Swire): In the spending review announcement, my right pleased to send on my sympathies to the hon. Gentleman’s hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced constituents who have been subject to such intolerable that the Government would meet in full a £175 million attacks, which, thankfully, have not caused death or loan and £25 million in cash to fund the Northern injury. Last week the Chief Constable said: Ireland Executive’s proposal to resolve the PMS crisis. “We are absolutely putting huge resources back in, we are going to sustain that next year and the year after until those Jonathan Reynolds: I thank the Minister for that responsible are brought to justice or they can be persuaded to response, but given that the Government’s proposals are give up.” a carbon copy of what my right hon. Friend the former Fisheries (EU Legislation) Prime Minister announced, why did the Secretary of 10. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): What State delay the announcement by six months, causing assessment he has made of the effects on the Northern unnecessary suffering and misunderstanding for the Ireland fishing fleet of the operation of EU legislation people who had lost money in the PMS? on working time; and if he will make a statement. Mr Swire: There is a fundamental difference between [22157] what the previous Government did and what the current The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Government have done about the problems connected Swire): Responsibilities here are divided: fisheries generally with the PMS: we have actually done something. We are a devolved matter, but the UK Government have led have responded to the request from the Executive in on aspects of the EU working time directive as it applies full. We stand by the Prime Minister’s commitment, and to fishing vessels. we are very pleased that we were able to act so swiftly— unlike some others. Jim Shannon: EU legislation includes a fundamental right to work. What steps has the Minister taken with Dissident Violence his European counterparts to ensure that the fishermen of Portavogie, Ardglass and Kilkeen, who have had 9. Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): What assessment their days at sea restricted, have a right to work? he has made of the reasons for the recent increase in Mr Swire: I understand that Diane Dodds and other the level of dissident violence in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland MEPs are working hard to address [22156] some of the difficulties experienced by the fishing industry The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen in Northern Ireland, particularly in relation to the Paterson): This violence is a direct response to the matter that the hon. Gentleman raises. I must stress continued political progress in Northern Ireland. Those though that fishing matters are partly devolved. None people are outdated and backward-looking. All that the less, I undertake to look into the matter, write to the they have to offer is to destabilise the peace process and hon. Gentleman in due course and put a copy of the disadvantage the people of Northern Ireland, but they letter in the Library. will not succeed. The Government take the terrorist threat in Northern Ireland extremely seriously. There PRIME MINISTER have been 39 attacks so far this year, compared with 22 throughout 2009. The Prime Minister was asked— Patrick Mercer: I heard what the Secretary of State Engagements had to say earlier about the operations of the police in the Republic. Can he also give me some assurance that Q1. [22884] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): If there is intelligence sharing between the Northern Irish he will list his official engagements for Wednesday Government and that in Dublin? 10 November. 279 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 280

The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Ihave Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the Deputy Prime been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s update. Minister has been leading a major Government and trade delegation to China, and is now travelling to The Deputy Prime Minister: None the less, we have Seoul for the G20 summit. stuck to our wider ambition to make sure that going to I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in university is done in a progressive way, so that people paying tribute to Senior Aircraftman Scott Hughes of who are currently discouraged from going to university— 1 Squadron Royal Air Force Regiment, who died in bright people from poor backgrounds, who are discouraged Cyprus on Sunday while returning from operational by the system that we inherited from the right hon. and service in Afghanistan. He was a professional and brave learned Lady’s Government—are able to do so. That is airman, and it is very sad that he died while returning why our policy is more progressive than hers. home from a tour of duty. Our thoughts are with his family and loved ones. Ms Harman: Well, I am glad that the Deputy Prime This week, on the eve of Remembrance day, we Minister thinks it is so fair. I hope he will be going out especially remember all those who have given their lives and telling that to all the students and lecturers who are in the service of our country, both in recent years and marching on Westminster today. In April he said that through previous generations. The sacrifices made by increasing tuition fees to £7,000 a year would be a our servicemen and women for our peace and freedom “disaster”. What word would he use to describe fees of must never be forgotten. £9,000? On a much happier note, let me, on behalf of the The Deputy Prime Minister: I think there is more Government, extend our warmest congratulations and consensus than the right hon. and learned Lady concedes best wishes to the Leader of the Opposition and his on the simple principle that people who benefit from partner, Justine, on the birth of their baby son. It is going to university should make a contribution to the wonderful news and we really are thrilled for them. cost of that university education. The question is: how do we do it? Do we do it fairly and in a progressive way? Jason McCartney: A 12-year-old haemophiliac from The proposals that we have put forward will mean that Lindley in Huddersfield was injected with contaminated those who earn the least will pay much less than they do blood products, giving him HIV, hepatitis C and CJD. at the moment—while those who earn the most will pay When will he and the 2,000 other survivors of this over the odds to provide a subsidy to allow people from shocking scandal get fair compensation? poor backgrounds to go to university—and will, for the first time, end the discrimination against the 40% of The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that my hon. people in our universities who are part-time students, Friend is a vigorous campaigner for all those whose who were so shamefully treated by her Government. lives have been so tragically affected by contaminated blood. It really is a dreadful catastrophe for all those Ms Harman: None of us agrees with tuition fees of affected. The Under-Secretary of State for Health, my £9,000 a year. This is not about the deficit: the Chancellor hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), said that the deficit would be dealt with by 2014, when intends to report by the end of the year on the outcome the new system will hardly have begun. No, this is not of the current review to see what more can be done for about the deficit; this is about the Deputy Prime Minister those affected by contaminated blood. Tomorrow, Health going along with a Tory plan to shove the cost of higher Ministers will hold an open meeting in Westminster education on to students and their families. We all know Hall at which hon. Members from all parts of the what it is like, Mr Speaker. You are at Freshers’ week. House and peers from the other place can raise their You meet up with a dodgy bloke and you do things that concerns. you regret. Is not the truth of it that the Deputy Prime Minister has been led astray by the Tories? Ms (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): I join the Deputy Prime Minister in paying tribute to The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that the right Senior Aircraftman Scott Hughes of 1 Squadron Royal hon. and learned Lady now thinks that she can reposition Air Force Regiment. We honour his memory and send the Labour party as the champion of students, but let condolences to his family. We will remember all our us remember the Labour party’s record: against tuition servicemen and women on Remembrance day. I should fees in 1997, but introduced them a few months later; like to echo, too, the right hon. Gentleman’s best wishes against top-up fees in the manifesto in 2001, then to the Leader of the Opposition and Justine on the introduced top-up fees. Then Labour set up the Browne birth of their new baby. review, which it is now trashing, and now the Labour party has a policy to tax graduates that half the Front-Bench In April, the Deputy Prime Minister said that it was team does not even believe in. Maybe she will go out to his aim to end university tuition fees. Will he update the the students who are protesting outside now and explain House on how his plan is progressing? what on earth her policy is.

The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I acknowledge Ms Harman: As a result of the Deputy Prime Minister’s that this is an extraordinarily difficult issue, and I have plans, English students will pay among the highest fees been entirely open about the fact that we have not been of any public university system in the industrialised able to deliver the policy that we held in opposition. world, and why? It is not to give universities more Because of the financial situation and because of the funds, but to replace the cuts that he is making to compromises of the coalition Government, we have had university teaching. Can he tell the House what the to put forward a different policy—[Interruption.] percentage cut to the university teaching grant is? 281 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 282

The Deputy Prime Minister: I can certainly confirm people of Burma. Aung San Suu Kyi should be released that the right hon. and learned Lady and her party also when her house arrest comes up for review in the had plans to make massive cuts in the budget of the coming days, and real democracy should finally be Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which introduced in Burma. would have affected higher education. Here are a few facts. Every single graduate under our scheme will pay Q2. [22885] Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton less per month than they do under the scheme that we West) (Lab/Co-op): Given that we all know how inherited from Labour. The bottom 25% of earners will important consistency is to the Deputy Prime Minister, pay much less in their contributions to their university will he explain to the House why his Chief Secretary to education than they do at the moment. Part-time students the Treasury is pictured on the Liberal Democrat will pay no up-front fees, and not a single student will website leading the campaign against selling off pay a penny of up-front fees whatsoever. It is a fair and forestry in Scotland, at the same time as he is proposing progressive solution to a very difficult problem. that in ? Ms Harman: It looks as though the right hon. Gentleman The Deputy Prime Minister: The poor Chief Secretary has been taking lessons from the Prime Minister on to the Treasury is picked on all the time—first for being how not to answer the question. I asked him about the ginger. Did the right hon. and learned Member for cut in the teaching grant. The truth is that it is a Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) make an impact staggering 80%––80%. No wonder he is ducking the assessment of her outrageously discriminatory remarks?– question. The real reason he is hiking up fees is that he –[Interruption.] is pulling the plug on public funding, and dumping the Mr Speaker: Order. First, the Deputy Prime Minister cost on to students. Is that not why he is betraying his must be heard. Secondly, the public thoroughly disapprove promise on tuition fees? of this level of destructive barracking from wherever in the House it comes: note that, and learn from it. The Deputy Prime Minister: The graduate tax that the right hon. and learned Lady advocates would be The Deputy Prime Minister: I was simply making the more unfair and would allow higher earners to opt out point that any form of discrimination against rodents of the system altogether. We all agree—she agrees—across or ginger-headed folk is wrong. the House that graduates should make some contribution As the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton for the benefit of going to university. The question is, West (Tom Greatrex) knows, on forestry issues, as on how? We have a progressive plan; she has no plan many others, there is a devolved division of responsibility. whatsoever. He should know that better than anyone else.

Ms Harman: But during the election, the right hon. Q3. [22886] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will my Gentleman hawked himself around university campuses right hon. Friend tell the House whether the Prime pledging to vote against tuition fees. By the time Freshers’ Minister received the “people’s port” community week was over, he had broken his promise. Every single mutual’s bid for the port of Dover? Will he allow a Liberal Democrat MP signed the pledge not to put up community right to buy, or will it be another British tuition fees; every single one of them is about to break icon sold overseas, as the previous Labour Government that promise. He must honour his promise to students planned? and their families throughout the country. Will he think again? The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I am pleased, as no doubt everyone is, that there is such a strong The Deputy Prime Minister: It is quite something to community interest in the future of the port of Dover. take lectures from the right hon. and learned Lady Campaigners have received stellar backing, and I wish about party management after the mutiny in the their campaign all the very best of luck. As my hon. parliamentary Labour party on Monday—[Interruption.] Friend knows, the port’s assets are owned by Dover Labour Members are cheering her now, but they certainly harbour board, not by the Government. The Minister were not at the mutiny on Monday night. The truth is of State, Department for Transport, my right hon. that before the election we did not know the unholy Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers) mess that would be left to us by her party. On this issue, is considering proposals for a scheme that would allow as on so many, the two parties on this side of the House the board to sell the port, so it would be inappropriate have come together to create a solution for the future. for me to comment further on that decision. The two parties on this side of the House have one policy; the Labour party has two policies. Q4. [22887] Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): AgustaWestland is an excellent company Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): In the international providing skilled manufacturing jobs in Yeovil. dialogue about democracy that we are witnessing, what Sheffield Forgemasters is also an excellent company, would my right hon. Friend say to those who welcomed providing skilled manufacturing jobs in Yorkshire. Why the elections in Burma, which were nothing more than did the Government decide to support one and not the an utter sham? other? The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree that The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I agree with those elections were a complete and utter sham. Their the hon. Lady that both are outstanding companies. conclusion was already decided well before they took The difference is that the announcement of the decision place, with reserved seats for the military, and reserved to provide a loan to Sheffield Forgemasters was made seats for parties that were put up by the military. They 11 days before the general election, when there was no are simply swapping their military uniforms for civilian money in this year’s budget to make that promise. It was clothing, but keeping their iron dictatorial grip on the a promise made by the previous Labour Government 283 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 284 knowing that the cheque would bounce. We have made opportunities. We have committed £1.4 billion to a a decision on Westland in the light of our difficult, regional growth fund, and we are establishing a green controversial decisions to bring sense to the public investment bank with the explicit aim of creating further finances. That is the difference. investment opportunities in green infrastructure in areas where private sector investment is currently constrained. Q5. [22888] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The I am delighted to hear about the way in which councils, Deputy Prime Minister might be aware that, in businesses and the not-for-profit sector in Norfolk are response to the comprehensive spending review, the working so effectively together. three most senior officers of Pendle borough council have announced a wage cut of 27%. In contrast, the chief constable of Lancashire police, Steve Finnigan, Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): In answer to has started a 90-day consultation on making all a question that I asked last week, the Minister for Lancashire’s police community support officers Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning indicated redundant. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the that the major reason for his proposals on fees was to chief constable should think again and that he should change the way in which higher education was funded, support our PCSOs—[Interruption.] and to shift the burden from the state to the student. How does the Deputy Prime Minister square that with Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the Deputy Prime his party’s view that the proposals are a deficit reduction Minister’s reply. measure only, and that they could be changed in the future? The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I welcome the decision by Pendle borough council and its executive The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, I think directors to reduce the council’s wage bill. My right every Member agrees that the funding for universities hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and should be a mixture of direct support from the state and Local Government has called on all local authority contributions made by—[Interruption.] As soon as we chief executives earning £200,000 a year to take a came into government, we looked exhaustively at the 10% pay cut, and those on £150,000 to take a 5% cut. option of a graduate tax, which was proposed by some They need to make sacrifices, just as everyone else is. On Labour Members and by the National Union of Students, policing, of course I understand everyone’s attachment but we discovered that that would be much more unfair to PCSOs, but it would be a flagrant breach of the and would allow particularly high earners to opt out of traditions of policing in this country if we were to start the system altogether, compared to the progressive system second-guessing chief constables. I think we all want of graduate contributions that we are proposing now. more visible policing; it cannot be right that the system we inherited from Labour means that only 11% of police officers are ever seen on our streets at any one Q8. [22891] Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) time. That is wrong and it must change. (Con): Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has a business payment support service, which has helped Q6. [22889] Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): many businesses in my constituency that have met Tens of thousands of students have gathered outside short-term problems to achieve a delayed payment of this place today to oppose the right hon. Gentleman’s taxes—sometimes the taxman can help, apparently. shameful policy of tripling student debt. He received a Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is a valuable request to address the crowd, but as yet no response service and that HMRC, alongside every other part of has been received. May I give him the opportunity to Government, should provide as much flexibility and give that response now? support as possible for business, if we are get out of the recession left to us by the previous Government? The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I meet student leaders and representatives of the National Union of Students all the time. I hope that, The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree with my when he joins the demonstrators, the first thing he will hon. Friend. I think that HMRC’s business payment do is explain what on earth his party’s policy is. We have support service is indeed, as he says, a very valuable and a policy; he has no policy and no plan, and is giving no important service, and it remains in place. By the end of hope to future generations of students. September this year, 371,200 arrangements had been granted, worth £6.38 billion. That is extraordinarily Q7. [22890] Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): valuable to small and medium-sized enterprises, which My right hon. Friend might be aware of the great work are indeed struggling and deserve all the support they being done by the East of England Energy Group, and require to power us out of this difficult economic by the borough councils, the county council and local environment. small companies in Norfolk to ensure that Great Yarmouth and East Anglia benefit from economic Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): The Minister growth and regeneration through the energy markets. for Universities and Science has made it clear that all Will he and the Government support our work to public funding will be withdrawn from non-STEM subjects ensure that East Anglia gets a fair and even chance to in universities. Last Wednesday, the Minister for Further bid for the opportunities that these new markets can Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning told a Westminster provide? Hall debate: The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree with my “We will continue to support the arts through the subsidy for hon. Friend that renewable energy is one of the great teaching in universities.”—[Official Report, 3 November 2010; industries of the future, and we are doing everything we Vol. 517, c. 315WH.] can to support those areas that want to exploit the Who is right? 285 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 286

The Deputy Prime Minister: The statement we made enterprise capital fund of £37.5 million to provide additional was very clear. I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept equity finance; and of course the enterprise finance that the model of mixed financing for our universities— guarantee fund, which will be increased by £200 million. partly from the Government and partly from graduates, That is real support for the wealth creators of the who, as he knows, stand to benefit on average from tens future. of thousands in extra earnings because they have a university degree—is one that we are preserving and Q11. [22894] Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): building on in a progressive manner. On 6 May, hundreds of the Deputy Prime Minister’s constituents and hundreds of mine in Sheffield were Q9. [22892] Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): In denied the right to vote because of current legislation. Gosport, our Sure Start centres provide valuable Why has the Deputy Prime Minister not taken the support to some of our most vulnerable people, which opportunity of legislation currently before Parliament proves that even the Labour party can get something to change the law, so that in future all those in the right. I welcome the Government’s continued support polling station at close of poll are allowed to vote? for Sure Start, but will the Deputy Prime Minister please reassure me that the programme will be The Deputy Prime Minister: I am acutely aware of the refocused so that those in the greatest need get the problem. I visited polling stations several times on that greatest support? day, and saw the huge queues of people, many of whom were denied their democratic right to exercise a vote. The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree. Sure The question is: what do we do about it? I happen to Start children’s centres play a vital role in helping families think that, in this instance, simply passing a law will not and giving them the help when they need it through deal with the problem, which was a lack of resources early intervention. That is why we announced in the and poor organisation by the returning officer, who spending review that Sure Start funding will be maintained acknowledged as much, as the hon. Lady knows, in in cash terms. As for how that funding is allocated to Sheffield. That is what we need to address; we should reflect deprivation, which was the hon. Lady’s question, not always simply reach for the statute book. the money is already weighted so that local authority areas with higher levels of disadvantage get more funding than others and, of course, local authorities have a high Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD):The degree of flexibility and latitude themselves—and we partnership between schools and universities in the do not propose to change that system at all. provision of teacher education is absolutely critical, and at the moment it works terribly well. The university of Cumbria is Europe’s largest provider of newly qualified Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) teachers. Will the Deputy Prime Minister assure me (Lab): May I bring the right hon. Gentleman back to that universities such as mine, which provide teacher higher education? He says that higher education should education, will continue to have a leading role in the be paid partly by the individual and partly by the state, training of our teachers of the future? but the confusion that the people of Islington will have is that the right hon. Gentleman was not saying that in April, so when did he change his mind? In the best The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course we must support possible scenario, if we had a fantastic economy and no all those institutions that produce the great teachers of debt at all, would he still believe that higher education the future. We must have great teachers who can also lift should be paid partly by the student and partly by the the aspirations of children in this country and particularly state? of bright young people from poor backgrounds who at the moment feel completely intimidated from going to The Deputy Prime Minister: I find it extraordinary university. I hope such teachers will explain to those that the hon. Lady can piously ask questions about young people that under the new scheme that we have changing one’s mind on this issue, when her party said proposed, they have a real route to live out their hopes no to fees in 1997, and introduced them; said no to and dreams at our great universities in the future. top-up fees in the manifesto of 2001, and introduced them; said yes to the Browne review, but now says no to Q12. [22895] Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): it; says yes to some graduate taxes, but no to others. Yesterday, the National Housing Federation reported Labour Members should make up their minds. that a first-time buyer in London needs a salary of almost £100,000 to buy an average-priced property. In Q10. [22893] Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): As the the light of that, will the Deputy Prime Minister tell me coalition continues to stabilise our economy, will the how many low-cost homes will not be built in the Deputy Prime Minister assure my constituents that capital as a result of his Government’s decision to cut providing long-term relief and support for small and the affordable housing budget by 63%? medium-sized businesses remains high on the Government’s priority list? The Deputy Prime Minister: What I do know, of course, is that we inherited a situation in which fewer— The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, absolutely, as I said [Interruption.] They do not like to hear it, but they have in answer to the earlier question. Over the past six to—it is the truth. Fewer and fewer affordable homes months, we have taken a number of steps to help small were built, and more and more people and families and medium-sized enterprises: reducing the small profits ended up on the waiting list for affordable homes. We rate of corporation tax from 21% to 20% from April have a plan finally to put that right, and to increase the next year; introducing new rules whereby for any new construction of new affordable homes at a rate that the regulation, another one must be scrapped; the party never achieved. 287 Oral Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 288

Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): the Equitable Life (Payments) Bill. Is the Deputy Prime Successful counter-insurgency operations in the past, Minister aware of the anger and frustration felt by such as in Malaya, suggest that not one of the preconditions many thousands of Equitable Life policyholders, will for success—control of borders, good troop density he address that, and will today’s business—with, levels, a credible Government, and support of the majority hopefully, his support and that of Members in all parts of the population—exists in Afghanistan. Does this not of the House—reach a more satisfactory conclusion for beg for a more realistic assessment of the situation? those policyholders?

The Deputy Prime Minister: We have sought to try to The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman introduce a strong element of realism, not only in the knows, under the last Government there was no prospect extra resources and support that are required for our of any compensation for Equitable Life policyholders. troops in Afghanistan, but recognise—I think this is the He will also know that the compensation package that implication of the question—that there is not a military we announced in the comprehensive spending review is solution to the conflict in Afghanistan. There must be a far in excess of the compensation levels recommended marriage of a military strategy, which applies pressure by the independent review. Of course the situation is on insurgents who want to disrupt the peaceful co-existence difficult, and we would always like to provide more of communities and people in Afghanistan, with a compensation, but the compensation that we are providing political process of reintegration and reconciliation, so is much, much more than many people expected. that we can leave Afghanistan— Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): The Times Educational Mr Speaker: Order. May I ask the Deputy Prime Supplement recently published a feature article stating Minister to face the House? Otherwise, it is difficult for how effective the pupil premium would be. Does the him to be fully heard. [Interruption.] Order. I want to Deputy Prime Minister share my frustration at the fact hear the Deputy Prime Minister. that the Labour party appears to be more interested in scoring partisan points than in supporting the coalition The Deputy Prime Minister: I was always taught to Government’s serious attempts— address the person who had asked me the question, Mr Speaker. So let me say, addressing my hon. Friend, that we need to marry a political strategy with a military Mr Speaker: Order. We have got the gist of it, and we strategy. Only by balancing the two will we be able to are grateful to the hon. Gentleman. leave Afghanistan with our heads held high, knowing that we have done the difficult job that we were asked to The Deputy Prime Minister: I think that the pupil do there. premium is a significant policy. It puts an end to the system that we inherited from Labour, which meant Q13. [22896] Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South that if you were a poor child at school in one part of the and East Cleveland) (Lab): Apart from the promise to country a lot of extra money would be allocated to your give rapists, murderers and paedophiles the vote, what education, whereas that would not happen if you were a pre-election promises has the Deputy Prime Minister poor child in another part of the country. The pupil kept? premium is attached to children from poor backgrounds wherever they live, to lift their sense of aspiration and to The Deputy Prime Minister: I am not sure whether improve the one-to-one tuition support that they need if that was a question or merely a line that the hon. they are to have the fair chance in life that all children Gentleman has rehearsed over and over again over the deserve in our country. past few days. As for the issue of prisoner voting rights, in 2005, as he knows, there was a court judgment on Q15. [22898] Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): Up to which the last Labour Government consulted repeatedly. 100,000 tenants are paying rent to more than At some point, regrettably, we need to bring our law 44,000 private landlords who are being investigated for into line with the court judgments, and that is what we non-payment of tax on rental income, and 53% of will now seek to do. those tenants are receiving housing benefit. What are the Government doing to clamp down on private Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): Is landlords who fiddle the tax and housing benefit the Deputy Prime Minister aware that, according to a system? report on Radio 5 Live this morning, after the changes in tuition fees graduates earning £25,000 a year will The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree that we have to pay back only £30 a month? should come down very hard on those unscrupulous landlords, who are profiteering from the housing benefit The Deputy Prime Minister: Opposition Members system that was so poorly administered by the previous simply refuse to acknowledge that the 25% of lowest Government. As the hon. Gentleman will know, rents graduate earners will pay much less than they do now. in the private sector have declined by about 5% over the That seems to me to be a strong indication of the last year, while rents that depend on housing allowance progressive nature of our proposals. have increased by 3%. That is why we need to bring some sense and proportion to the way in which we Q14. [22897] Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) administer housing benefit, which has more than doubled (DUP): Business to be dealt with later today includes over the past few years. 289 10 NOVEMBER 2010 290

Point of Order Support and Protection for Elderly People and Adults at Risk of Abuse 12.34 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): On a No. 23) point of order, Mr Speaker. On 1 November, the Home Secretary made a statement in the House on aviation 12.35 pm security. The shadow Home Secretary asked her a number of questions that she was not able to answer. She said Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I beg to that she in due course would write to the shadow Home move, Secretary with the answers. Ten days later, we have not That leave be given to bring in a Bill to promote awareness of received those answers. I seek your advice, Mr Speaker, abuse of elderly people and adults at risk, to promote training on on how we can deal with the situation. how to recognise and respond to such abuse amongst those who are likely to encounter abuse in the course of their work, to Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for promote greater awareness and understanding of the rights of giving me notice of his point of order. His complaint victims of abuse amongst agencies with responsibilities for providing, arranging, commissioning, monitoring and inspecting care services, will have been heard by Ministers. I hope, from his to promote the development of local strategies for preventing point of view, that it will also be heeded, and that he abuse of elderly people and adults at risk and for ensuring that will receive the promised answers soon. It may also be victims are assisted in recovering from the effects of abuse. helpful for the hon. Gentleman and the House to be I am delighted to have this opportunity to move this reminded that business questions will take place tomorrow. motion and introduce the Bill. The abuse of elderly I hope that that is useful. people and adults at risk is a hidden problem, and I hope that by raising it in the Committee today I will help to focus attention on this matter which affects hundreds of thousands of people every year, and which a range of organisations, including Age UK and the Alzheimer’s Society, have already done much to highlight. Issues of abuse are complex and much abuse goes unreported. The failure by abused elderly people and adults generally to report instances of abuse is down to a number of reasons: stigma, shame and even a feeling of guilt by the abused, wrongly but genuinely felt, for having provoked the abuse. Very often the abused adult is dependent on the abuser. Isolation also plays a part, as does lack of contact with care providers or criminal justice agencies. The complexity of the problem is illustrated by a piece of work recently carried out in Northern Ireland which showed that three quarters of incidents in which elderly adults were subjected to abuse involved a family member, including very close relatives. Often in such situations the abused person will want to maintain some kind of relationship with the abuser, and they might be threatened that if they report the abuse they will be denied access to other family members, such as grandchildren, thus reinforcing the feelings of loneliness and isolation. In such cases, the elderly person often decides to balance the abuse they are actually suffering against the fear of some future action that they believe would result in their being left in an even worse state. As a country, we must do everything we can to protect people at risk, especially our senior citizens, from abuse that can take many different forms. Often these factors are combined, but generally abuse falls into the following categories: emotional, psychological, financial, physical, sexual and neglect. Although Members will be aware of extreme examples of abuse when they are reported in the press and other media, it is clear that much abuse happens almost unnoticed or is passed off and excused as “poor care”, or with the comment, “That’s just the way he or she”—the family member— “behaves.” The issue of financial abuse is causing increasing concern. A 2008 Help the Aged report found that up to 2.5% of elderly people felt they had experienced some kind of financial abuse, exploitation or coercion, and in 291 Support and Protection for Elderly 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Support and Protection for Elderly 292 People and Adults at Risk of Abuse People and Adults at Risk of Abuse [Mr Nigel Dodds] understanding the circumstances and situations that contribute towards abuse or render people vulnerable to my constituency case load I have come across increasing it, acknowledging the reality of its effect and how we as numbers of specific issues involving the administration a society must move towards eradicating it. of the personal finances of vulnerable adults. That is Often there appears to be little formal contact between now becoming a greater problem given the difficult agencies and services, and support can be unco-ordinated economic times we are facing and pressures on family and fragmented. Let us compare that with the protection finances, yet public awareness of the issue is limited. of children, which is a benchmark that we should seek Many members of the public at large do not understand to emulate. There is too much buck-passing over vulnerable the nature of the different types of abuse. That was adults and senior citizens, and only legislation will end borne out by the work of a partnership project in that. Legislation would require suspected abuse to be Northern Ireland, Uniting Against Elder Abuse, which investigated. Guidance is all well and good, but it brought together Age Concern and Help the Aged—which applies differently to the various authorities and statutory are now united as Age NI—and the Alzheimer’s Society agencies. The law should apply to all agencies involved and Carers Northern Ireland. The project delivered a in preventing and responding to abuse. Specific legislation two-year strategic programme aimed at raising awareness would force better co-ordination of the various statutory of the problem generally, providing access to independent agencies as they confront the silent offender of abuse. advocacy for frail older people and those with dementia, The same legislation could address the training and and developing a therapeutic response for those who education deficit, which I have already mentioned, across experience abuse. I can say from the experience we had the range of elderly support services, including the then in Northern Ireland that people were genuinely private, public and voluntary sectors. taken aback at the report’s findings and the extent of Devolved Administrations are already taking steps, the problem. or have taken steps, to target elder abuse, with Scotland The number of people affected is much greater than introducing the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) is sometimes realised. It is estimated that one in 25 of all Act 2007, Wales preparing to make recommendations older people living in the community is affected by by the end of this year, it is hoped, and Northern some kind of abuse every single year. As the majority of Ireland preparing a policy framework for consultation cases occur in the older person’s home, agencies such as in early 2011. social services are not necessarily involved or aware. The Department of Health opened up consultation According to one survey, 62% reported that they had on the “No secrets” guidance in 2009, but neither the had no contact whatever with social services or any previous Government nor this one—I acknowledge that other support organisation, highlighting the fact that they have been in office for only a short time—have there is likely to be a considerable hidden minority of responded to the findings of that consultation, including older people living in an abusive situation or subject to those on whether legislation is needed. some kind of abuse without recourse to traditional Legislation on the abuse of elderly people and adults forms of support or help. at risk would facilitate a more comprehensive assessment, There must therefore be greater commitment to educating with a common benchmark standard across all support and informing people about the support available to agencies. It would establish a more consistent and effective them. There are gaps in education, knowledge and response by statutory providers, ensure better training training at the individual level and across the public and and education, which would improve awareness, and voluntary sectors. Those gaps must be plugged. It is consolidate local authority guidelines and offer enhanced vital that we have a single, common piece of legislation guidance to the criminal justice system. to reinforce existing policies designed to protect the The day we set aside or neglect our responsibility to elderly and adults at risk of abuse. Current safeguarding help and cater for the needs of our senior citizens and legislation is too complex and spread across many and those who are open to and at risk of abuse within our various Acts and measures. It therefore offers only society is the day that we lose our moral compass. I limited protection. No single professional, whether it be believe that this is an extremely important issue and a social worker, a police officer or a nurse, could ever be hope that the presentation of the Bill leads to Government expected to be aware of all the legislation that is out action. I commend the Bill to the House. there. That is why overarching, comprehensive and consolidating legislation is needed. Question put and agreed to. Ordered, There would be immense benefit in bringing existing provisions together, including principles, definitions, a That Mr Nigel Dodds, Andrew Percy, Malcolm Wicks, duty to investigate, clarification of powers of entry, Greg Mulholland, Dr William McCrea, Mr Jeffrey M powers to remove a perpetrator or perpetrators of abuse, Donaldson, Mr Gregory Campbell, Sammy Wilson, and a duty of co-operation. Legislation should not only David Simpson, Ian Paisley and Jim Shannon present be about responding to individual allegations of abuse, the Bill. but should place a strong emphasis on prevention—and Mr Nigel Dodds accordingly presented the Bill. not just preventing an abusive situation arising for an Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on individual. What is needed is a major shift towards Friday 17 June 2011, and to be printed (Bill 105). 293 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 294

Equitable Life (Payments) Bill “Over the last eight years many of those members and their families have suffered great anxiety as policy values were cut and Considered in Committee pension payments reduced. Many are no longer alive, and will be unable to benefit personally from any compensation. We share [MR in the Chair] both a deep sense of frustration and continuing outrage that the situation has remained unresolved for so long.” Clause 1 In June 2009, I introduced an Adjournment debate in PAYMENTS Westminster Hall on Equitable Life following many complaints from constituents over the past few years. In 12.46 pm my debate, I was critical of the then Labour Mr Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): I beg Government—my own party’s Government—and although to move amendment 1, page 1, line 7, at end insert— I loyally and strongly supported almost all the previous Government’s policies, I felt that we were wrong on this ‘(2A) Payments authorised by the Treasury under this section to with-profits annuitants shall be made without regard to the issue and should have done far more to implement the date on which such policies were taken out.’. parliamentary ombudsman’s full and damning report of July 2008 entitled “Equitable Life: a decade of regulatory The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel failure”. Needless to say, that did not make me very Evans): With this it will be convenient to discuss the popular with my colleagues on the Front Bench at the following: time. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Amendment 2, page 1, line 7, at end insert— Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), the then Chief Secretary to the ‘(2A) The Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration Treasury, tried his best at the end of the last Parliament shall report to Parliament on the implications for payments to to implement what I believe to have been a flawed which this section applies of the findings of the Independent exercise to bring in some sort of compensation scheme Commission on Equitable Life Payments, no later than one by employing Sir John Chadwick to design a system, month after the publication of such findings.’. but that took so long that it was overtaken by the Amendment 7, page 1, line 7, at end insert— general election in May. ‘(2A) In determining the amount of the payments that it is appropriate for the Treasury to authorise under subsection (2), The new coalition Government decided initially to the Treasury must have regard to such matters relating to the continue the Chadwick process, to the disappointment adverse effects of that maladministration on those persons and of the Equitable Members Action Group. However, I the proper calculation of their resulting losses as have been must thank my right hon. Friend for his courtesy and determined by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the help that he tried to give me when he was Chief Administration to be relevant to and appropriate for that Secretary. He clearly understood the moral imperative calculation.’. that Parliament and the Government had to Equitable’s Mr Hamilton: I tabled my amendment because, although policyholders, but his hands were tied and no compensation I am well aware that the Bill is an enabling measure, I scheme was forthcoming under the previous Government. feel strongly that a group of Equitable Life policyholders That was a great shame. has been unfairly excluded from the compensation scheme When Sir John Chadwick finally published his long- that the Government have put in place. You will be awaited report on 22 July, his recommendation on the pleased to know, Mr Evans, that I will not rehearse the total compensation to Equitable policyholders was for entire history of the Equitable Life saga, because I do just £400 million to £500 million, or about £400 to not think that we have the time this afternoon. However, £500 per person, out of the estimated total losses of to put my amendment into context, it might help right approximately £4.8 billion, as calculated by the actuaries hon. and hon. Members if I remind them of some of Towers Watson almost two years ago. I am reluctant to the background to the case that I am about to put for give praise to the Government parties, but I was delighted the with-profits annuitants who took out their policies when the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his speech to before 1992, for whom the Government’s proposed the House on the comprehensive spending review on scheme will not offer any compensation at all—in stark 20 October, scrapped the Chadwick report and proposed contrast to the post-1992 with-profits annuitants for a compensation package amounting to £1.5 billion. whom 100% compensation is now proposed. That figure was a threefold increase on Sir John Chadwick’s Founded in 1762 as a mutual insurance company initial proposal but was still insufficient to make up for based on the ideas of James Dodson, a fellow of the the losses incurred by Equitable policyholders. More Royal Society and a man well ahead of his time, Equitable important, however, the Government accepted at long Life started selling pensions as early as 1913, but it was last the report of the Parliamentary and Health Service not until 1957 that the society started to sell its infamous Ombudsman in full. Again, I must reluctantly give guaranteed annuity rate, or GAR, pensions, which gave credit to the Government for having done something a clear and unambiguous return on capital invested that I wish my Government had done long ago. depending on the age at which the policyholder decided to start taking the annuity. That was to carry on until Any delight that surviving Equitable policyholders 1988, at which point the society realised that its rates and I felt at the Chancellor’s announcement was soon were so good and so far ahead of the rest of the market clouded by the details of the proposed compensation that they were unsustainable. package. All the 37,000 post-1992 with-profits annuitants In December 2000, Equitable Life was forced to close will eventually receive 100% compensation for their to new business. By that time, it had more than 1.5 million losses since then, but none of the estimated 10,000 pre-1992 members. In the last Parliament, the Select Committee with-profits annuitants will receive any compensation. on Public Administration said in its introduction to its Let me explain how my amendment goes to the heart of December 2008 report: this issue. 295 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 296

Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): I have no this is the crux of what Mr D says— reluctance in paying tribute to the hon. Gentleman for “I think our MPs are fair minded enough to perceive for themselves his independence of thought and the campaign that he how unjust the proposed action of the Government is. I am has waged on this issue. He has been not a lone voice, writing to my MP straight away.” but one of very few Labour voices addressing the matter. Whoever that might be should look out for the letter. On pre-992 annuitants, how on earth could one calculate Once an annuity has been purchased it cannot be what their losses might be as at that time, bearing in sold or changed, so the with-profits annuitants who mind the fact that it is very likely that in the late took out annuities before the September 1992 cut-off 1980s and early 1990s bonus payments that were probably date are trapped. much larger than was warranted, given subsequent events, were added to their asset share? In other words, they Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I, too, pay tribute might well already have been overcompensated. to the hon. Gentleman for his work. It has been a Mr Hamilton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his pleasure to work with him on this issue and I support kind words. I hope that in continuing my comments I his amendment. In a nutshell, on the moral case, the shall answer his question. parliamentary ombudsman and Sir John Chadwick both I have long believed that the Equitable saga is a moral said in writing in advance that all the annuitants should issue for us in Parliament. We sought, through the be treated equally and that these annuitants should not Financial Services Authority, to regulate financial be excluded, not least because they are the oldest and institutions such as Equitable so that those who invested most frail. their valuable savings to ensure their future income were protected against fraud and maladministration. Mr Hamilton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Our own ombudsman, Ann Abraham—she works for kind remarks about the work I have done but, as the us—called the failure to regulate Equitable “catastrophic” Committee will know, he is the secretary of the all-party and pointed to examples of savers encouraged to invest group on justice for Equitable Life policyholders, and I with that company long after it clearly could no longer thank him for his efforts in this regard. He is absolutely meet its obligations. right: Sir John Chadwick did say that, as I shall mention later. If we as a nation want to encourage people to save and to provide for their retirement and old age, in The with-profits annuitants who took out annuities addition to what they will receive in state pension, it is before the September 1992 cut-off date are as trapped essential that the companies offering those savings products as those who purchased them after that date and their can be trusted and relied on. With hindsight, we can see incomes diminish each year. Having taken out policies that Equitable clearly could not deliver to the hundreds that they believed would allow them to make ends meet of thousands of investors who trusted it and those in old age, they now face increasing poverty because people have been badly let down as a result. We had an Parliament did not act soon enough to prevent the obligation to ensure that that could not happen and we collapse of Equitable. That is why we owe them the now have an obligation—indeed, a duty—to ensure that compensation that they deserve as much as the post-1992 those who have lost out are fairly compensated for all with-profits annuitants. their losses. This matter is above crude party politics; it What is so important about September 1992? Let me is an obligation to which 380 sitting MPs signed up give further reasons why this is an artificial and unfair before the last election when they put their names to cut-off date, which I seek to stop with my amendment. EMAG’s pledge. We must not let the policyholders First, annuities could not be exchanged once bought, so down now. every annuitant has suffered from the consequences of Let me relate some heartbreaking cases that will regulatory failure irrespective of when their annuity illustrate better than I can just how people have suffered was taken out or what extra bonuses were added. The as a result of Equitable’s failure. One of my constituents, cut-off date ignores the views of the parliamentary Mrs B of Leeds, has written: ombudsman, Ann Abraham, and Lord Chadwick in “I signed for my With Profits Annuity in March 1991, investing their reports. Even Chadwick, who came up with a £57,000. I am really suffering just now with my husband now much smaller overall compensation package than the being disabled and I am still trying to work four days a week to £1.5 billion now on the table, agreed that the pre-1992 make ends meet. I receive only £141 a month from Equitable and with-profits annuitants should not be excluded, as the it will continue to reduce. Surely all With Profits Annuitants hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) pointed should be included in the compensation! Have I been harbouring out. false hopes all these months? If so, there does not seem any point in my continuing to write to my MP or the Prime Minister.” It is said that because of the changes to the computer Another policyholder, Mr D, who is not a constituent system, Equitable’s records prior to late 1992 were not of mine as far as I am aware but will be a constituent of available, but the current chief executive of Equitable, somebody in the House, writes: Chris Wiscarson, who has been extremely helpful, has “In his letter of 20 October Mark Hoban refers to the government’s previously stated that this is a problem that could be concern with the plight of the WPAs. However, he fails even to surmounted. The parliamentary ombudsman has previously mention the Government’s decision that those who started to made it clear that nobody would sensibly have invested receive their annuities before September 1992 are to get nothing. in Equitable after 1 July 1991 had the regulator acted This is in spite of the fact that they too have not been allowed to effectively and transparently. If that situation had been get out, are continuing to suffer, year by year, reductions in their made apparent to the media and the public at that time, annuities and are older than any of us. nobody would have sensibly invested after that date. Fortunately Paul Braithwaite [the Secretary of EMAG] perceived from the first what was going on and has placed the matter of the It seems clear to me that anybody who took out a treatment of the pre-September 1992 WPAs at the top of the policy between July 1991 and September 1992 is being agenda for a judicial review. However”— unfairly penalised simply because of a change in Equitable’s 297 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 298 computer system. This is exacerbated by the fact that Jonathan Evans: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, policies brought out in this period had the longest who is being extremely generous in giving way. I fully exposure to the adverse effects of maladministration. accept the moral argument that he is putting forward. The coalition Government gave a commitment to That is why I was a signatory to the pledge as well. In “implement the Parliamentary and Health Ombudsman’s response to the question I asked earlier, he certainly has recommendation to make fair and transparent payments to Equitable a point about taking back the date to 1991. His amendment, Life policy holders, through an independent payment scheme, for though, would go back well before that, but he has not their relative loss as a consequence of regulatory failure.” made the argument for going beyond 1991. My second My amendment would ensure that this commitment question was how he would compute the compensation. could be carried out properly and at a relatively small That must be a central question, and in his argument so additional cost. far I have not heard an answer to that. Let me be clear. I am not recommending that we take some of the compensation from the 37,000 who have Mr Hamilton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his already been promised 100% compensation, which amounts intervention. First, there would be relatively few annuitants to about 50% of the total offered by the Government. I from further back in time. Clearly, a person who retired am suggesting that we bring forward the £100 million of in 1981 or 1985 would be getting on a bit in years now, the total package that was proposed to be given in the so only a small number of people would be involved. next Parliament, and that we add to that a further Secondly, Equitable must have records showing what £100 million from current, albeit limited, reserves. bonuses were paid at different times. As I said earlier, I believe that this is a moral obligation The further back the scheme goes before 1991, the and that Equitable pensioners are looking to us, their fewer annuitants there will be who demand or need that recently elected representatives in this Parliament, for compensation, but the need will be greater because of justice, which is why I intend to press the amendment to the frailty and the loss in the value of those annuities a vote so that there can be no discrimination between since then. Since 1991, those annuitants, even though with-profit annuitants according to when they purchased they may have had bonuses before that, continue to see those annuities. a decline because of the maladministration, which affects them as much as it affects post-1992 annuitants. I hope (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I have at least partly answered the hon. Gentleman’s Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there might be point. more support for the amendment if it did not incur further cost to the taxpayer, bearing in mind the current Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Actuaries are severe financial constraints? sometimes disdainfully referred to as people who found accountancy too exciting, but surely a good actuary Mr Hamilton: Yes, of course the amendment would would be able to calculate the sums in question, whether attract far more support if there was a net zero cost. for pre-1991 or post-1991 annuitants. However, this is an important moral issue. Many of my hon. Friends and other Members know my views, for Mr Hamilton: I thank my hon. Friend for making example, on the Trident replacement, which I know has that very good point. We are talking about many hundreds now been shelved for a while, and on various schemes of thousands of policyholders throughout the United that take a huge amount of capital expenditure. The Kingdom, but we know that there are about 37,000 or sum that we are discussing now is relatively small. I so post-1992 with-profits annuitants. We think there are believe there are other savings that may be made, particularly about 10,000 pre-1992 such annuitants, but the further in defence spending, which could pay for this. back we go the fewer there will be, so if it was a difficult, That is a decision that the Government and the two time-consuming exercise to work out relative losses for parties that make up the coalition will have to grapple all policyholders, which it certainly was, which is why with, but I believe that the policyholders look to us to Sir John Chadwick was engaged, it will surely be a much ensure that the justice they have been promised is delivered. easier exercise for the far fewer people who are with-profits It is a moral obligation, and it overrides many of the annuitants prior to 1991. My hon. Friend’s point goes other areas of expenditure to which any Government some way to answering the question. are committed. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I thank the hon. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Does Gentleman for giving way again. This has been a long- my hon. Friend agree that if there is a moral case to standing issue, and perhaps he can help some of us who compensate anybody, there must be a moral case to are new to the House. He mentioned a total of £100 compensate everybody, and not leave some people out million from subsequent years’ Budgets, plus £100 million because of some mess-up over a computer system? from reserves to be allocated to pre-1992 annuitants who are not covered in the proposals. Is the hon. Mr Hamilton: I thank my right hon. Friend for that. Gentleman making an estimate, or is that sum firm is in He is right. It is galling when the very vulnerable and his mind? That is a key issue. The concerns expressed frail pensioners who are the ones suffering most because about computer records do not stand up against a point they are the pre-1992 with-profits annuitants look, for of principle, but it is important that we have a sense of example, to the quite correct compensation given to how firm and solid the hon. Gentleman’s understanding Icesave investors of up to £50,000 per investor, and to is of the sums that might need to be paid. some of the other compensation schemes in which the Government have been involved over the years, and find Mr Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman makes a very that they, who might not have much longer to live, are good point, and I cannot give him a precise answer. The going to be without compensation at all. figures that I have quoted are estimates I obtained from 299 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 300

[Mr Fabian Hamilton] recognition of all the individual provisions that the parliamentary ombudsman put forward. The hon. the Equitable Members Action Group, which has quite Gentleman will know that the previous Government a lot of good people working for it—people who have only partially accepted the ombudsman’s report, and I been in the financial services industry. I go on their am very pleased, and proud of the fact that the Minister expertise. This is the best estimate that we can gain. fully accepted all its points. I rather wish that EMAG The reality is that many of the annuitants are quite had been a little more generous in its praise of him for elderly. It is unlikely that in five years we will have the having done so. same number we have now. We already know, for example, Secondly, the compensation that has been put forward that 15 policyholders throughout the entire spectrum of will come as a disappointment to some, but the ombudsman Equitable policyholders have died every single day since made it clear that we had to take account of pressures the disaster happened. We can therefore assume, on the public purse at the time. When we heard Sir John unfortunately, that more will no longer be with us in the Chadwick’s proposals, there was virtual unanimity among years to come, so the amount of money will be a those newly elected Government Members that £400 million diminishing sum. The best estimate that we can gain is was completely and utterly inadequate. I thought that £200 million, and that estimate comes from EMAG. the Government might put the figure up to about £1 billion and hope for the best, but we ended up with Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Can the hon. £1.5 billion. Gentleman clarify that last point? Obviously, since our last debate on the subject in the Chamber way back in James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): July, some people have passed away. Is there any provision Does my hon. Friend agree that we would not be in this in the amendment for the next of kin to take advantage, situation, or have to have this conversation, if it had not in the absence of those who have passed on? been for the delay imposed by the previous Government?

Mr Hamilton: That is a good point, and it was made Jonathan Evans: That is true, and the record of the during the previous Parliament, in February, at a packed outgoing Labour Government in that regard is inglorious, meeting with the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, but I do not want to be partisan. In essence, Equitable my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Life policyholders do not want us endlessly to bash the Hodge Hill, and Sir John Chadwick. My right hon. Opposition; they want to know which way we can go Friend made a commitment, which I am not sure the forward. So I shall turn my remarks to the specific Financial Secretary has made, so perhaps he will clarify points made by the hon. Member for Leeds North East. the situation in his contribution, that the estates of He made a good moral case for not excluding people those who had passed away would receive some who ought properly to be included in the category to compensation. The point that I have just made may be whom compensation could be paid, but, as I suggested contradicted, but it depends on what the Financial in my intervention on him, some factors cause me some Secretary and the Treasury want to do. concern. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban): Before the hon. Gentleman continues, let me 1.15 pm just make it clear that long ago we established the fact First, the hon. Gentleman referred to the elderly that, under any compensation scheme designed, we pensioner who had put in £57,000 and now receives a would make payments to those who had deceased, and very low monthly figure. I certainly share his concern that there would be no means-testing. about that, but, if we were to unpick financial arrangements going back to the 1980s, we would have to consider the Mr Hamilton: I thank the Financial Secretary for difficulty that arose from the fact that Equitable Life clarifying that point, which somewhat contradicts what gave guaranteed annuity rates to some of its policyholders I said earlier about the diminishing amount of money. and, at the same time, record bonus rates to those The best estimate that EMAG can give us is £200 million people who did not have those guarantees. In reality, for the 10,000 existing pre-1992 annuitants. I confirm Equitable Life was building its business on the basis of that I wish to press my amendment to a vote, and becoming a market leader in the bonuses that it granted— simply conclude that we owe some of our most frail and even to the point where the parliamentary authorities vulnerable pensioners no less. I urge all Members to recommended that all hon. Members making additional support my amendment. voluntary contributions should make use of Equitable Life because of its market-leading rates. Jonathan Evans: I am very pleased to have the We know now that those rates were deceptive, but opportunity to participate in this debate, but may I during the 1980s those rates were paid and those bonuses begin by declaring an interest? I am the chairman of a added to the asset pool being put together. Therefore, it life insurance company, but I have no connection whatever cannot be gainsaid that, certainly by 1990, most people with Equitable Life, financial or otherwise. with an asset share in an Equitable Life policy probably The hon. Member for Leeds North East (Mr Hamilton), had an amount that was well beyond what was appropriate alongside very many Conservative and Liberal Democrat for the investment that they had made. In other words, Members prior to the election, fought very hard to put they were over-supplied with bonuses during that period. forward the cause of Equitable Life policyholders, and I am pleased and proud of the position that my colleagues Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I have taken and the Minister adopted. Many of us, in the lead-up to part in a number of these debates during my short the election campaign, signed a pledge to seek to put period as a Member, and, unlike some hon. Members, I into operation a number of factors. The first was the am not reluctant to praise the Minister. However, in my 301 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 302 constituency surgery last Friday I saw an 80-year-old I have held this brief for a couple of weeks, and it has gentleman who accepts the points that my hon. Friend been an extremely steep learning curve of reviewing now makes, but makes the point himself that the pre-1992 history and policy that dates back well over 25 years, as group are still trapped and unable to take any action. my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North East said. Had they been able to take some action to mitigate or I was struck by the opening words of the House of ameliorate their circumstances, they would have done Commons Library background note to the Bill: so. My hon. Friend the Minister has done a great job in “Describing the Equitable Life (Payments) Bill as the tip of an moving the issue forward so quickly, but I hope that he iceberg would be harsh on icebergs: at least they have 10% or so of will at least listen to the concerns of the pre-1992 their bulk above the water line. The Bill is but a tiny atoll below annuitants. which lies the immense bulk of the Equitable Life tragedy.” In general, I intend to be as supportive as I can of the Jonathan Evans: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Bill, as it is a positive step forward in the attempts to that contribution. He approaches the issue with significant rectify a long and sorry saga. The amendment simply expertise, so he will know that, if we are to achieve seeks to encourage the parliamentary ombudsman to justice, it is not just a question of treating all those “report to Parliament on the implications for payments…of the pre-1992 policyholders in the same way as everybody findings of the Independent Commission on Equitable Life Payments, after 1992. One would go back and assess the pre-1992 no later than one month after the publication of such findings.” annuitants’ asset share to see whether they were paid I do not want to go through the entire background 105%, 110%, 120% or 140% of asset share; and one that has brought us to this Committee stage today. By would correct that, so that the pre-1992 and post-1992 my count, eight separate inquiries, and possibly more, annuitants were dealt with in a balanced way. The have done that, and there are conflicting and sometimes danger with the proposed approach is that there will not contradictory findings and accounts of what happened be that balance. It is already clear, from the question in the past and who should be responsible for rectifying asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford the situation for policyholders. However, we know that (Richard Fuller), that we do not have a basis for the in the spending review the Government accepted the figure of £200 million; it is a wet finger in the air in ombudsman’s approach to maladministration and, more order to assess the situation. relevantly to this debate, to the framework for a The second factor that causes me significant concern compensation package. The Government say that they is the lack of available actuarial information. I share all want to honour the interpretation of the ombudsman’s the concerns about the Chadwick process, and, although second report in full. That is their choice. There are Sir John might have made an observation about the clearly arguments in favour of that approach, as well as pre-1992 annuitants, he did not compute their liabilities. against it. The danger, therefore, of being seduced by the strong arguments of the hon. Member for Leeds North East, is The Minister now places great emphasis—although it that we would enter into an open-ended commitment could be argued that he did so to a lesser degree before and have great difficulty realising its objective. During the general election, when there were a lot of loud the debate, however, he has made a good case on behalf campaigns on signing up to the EMAG pledge—on it of those annuitants who go back to 1991. We should being appropriate to consider the potential impact on remember the judgment made by the ombudsman and the public purse of any payments of compensation in her terms of reference. Most of the inquiries started this case, as the ombudsman has said. The Treasury has looking at the period from 1999 onwards, but most of concluded that it will initially focus on total relative loss the condemnation about regulatory failure goes back to as the basis for its payments and will cover those losses events prior to 1991. It is important that the Committee in full for post-1992 with-profits annuitants, to the tune should take that factor into account when invited to say of some £620 million. Some 37,000 individuals will be that compensation should be granted going back very involved in that. That means that that group of with-profits many years before that. annuitants will receive compensation equivalent to that which they would have gained had they invested in Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I should companies other than Equitable Life. However, because like to speak to amendment 2, which is grouped with of the cap of about £1.5 billion that the Treasury is amendment 1, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member placing on the total payouts, the other 1 million or so for Leeds North East (Mr Hamilton) and amendment 7, policyholders, including annuitants with older policies—I tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn presume, although I may be wrong about that—will and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). have to have their compensation for relative loss adjusted In wishing you a happy birthday, Mr Evans, let me to fit within the envelope available. say that I do not have any registrable financial interests The Independent Commission on Equitable Life in the matter under debate. However, I want to place on Payments, which is chaired by Brian Pomeroy, has been record that 18 months ago, some while before I was set up by the Minister to advise on the allocation of returned to the House, I was occasionally commissioned compensation to policyholders other than those with-profits to give advice and training on parliamentary and public annuitants, who will be getting 100% compensation. I policy matters, and on one occasion, I undertook a am conscious of the words of Sir John Chadwick when day’s work for a company whose clients included the I think through the technical challenge of administering former chief executive of Equitable Life; by then, of a compensation payment scheme; it is important that its course, its fund had been closed for many years. I design and delivery are clear and efficient. I hope that thought it important to disclose that encounter for the we are not on the brink of a further failure that compounds avoidance of any doubt. Although I had a day’s work the problems of the majority of policyholders by opting indirectly related to Equitable Life some time before for a compensation scheme that could be so complex coming into Parliament, I have not had any financial or and opaque that it might risk grinding to a halt. We policy discussions on the matter subsequently. need a scheme that works in practice. 303 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 304

[Chris Leslie] It says that the Minister’s letter of 20 October to the commission’s chairman If the Minister is opting for the ombudsman’s “makes clear that retrospectively the remit will now totally exclude” approach—as I say, that is the Government’s choice—there the full class of with-profits annuitants. My hon. Friend are questions that need to be answered, and I would be the Member for Leeds North East alluded to that point. grateful if he could reflect on those when he makes his EMAG continues: comments. First, exactly how will the apportionment of “So its remit now is to divvy up £775m between 600,000 and to the relative loss figures for other policyholders not suggest the prioritisation. This surely cannot be what the Parliamentary receiving 100% compensation be calculated under the Ombudsman had in mind as the role for the independent ombudsman’s approach, if we will not be following the Commission?” Chadwick methodology given the Government’s acceptance Given this question mark over the parliamentary of all 10 findings by the ombudsman? ombudsman’s intentions, we felt it important to table Secondly, will the other policyholders—the vast the amendment to try to give voice to that. majority—be classified into broad categories or subject There is doubt about whether the compensation to individual assessment of their cases? Will there be arrangements are as much in alignment with the any burden of proof requirement on the other policyholders ombudsman’s approach as the Financial Secretary would in the assessment of their relative loss, or is it likely that like to argue, and I hope that our amendment will give the compensation scheme will have some assumed the ombudsman a chance swiftly to comment on the automaticity in all cases? I ask that only because the calibre of the scheme and clarify once and for all ombudsman’s findings of loss are very specifically linked whether it fits with her approach. We believe that that to a policyholder’s reliance on the regulatory return can be done quickly, and there seems to us to be no data. She said: reason why it could not happen within one month of the publication of the scheme’s proposals. There would “I find that injustice was sustained by any policyholder who relied on information contained in the society’s returns between not be any reason to delay payments, and it would aid 1990 and 1996.” transparency and confirm whether the Government’s arrangements via the commission’s payment scheme I am trying to get a sense of precisely how that process were the same as those envisaged by the ombudsman. will work. Although amendment 2 may be a belt-and-braces approach, Thirdly, how will the payment scheme take into account at this stage of the saga we need some cast-iron assurances all the other maladministration factors for other all round. policyholders that Sir John Chadwick’s methodology would not have covered, if we are following a classification 1.30 pm scheme? Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I should like to make Whatever compensation scheme the independent a brief contribution to say that if the hon. Member for commission eventually alights upon, it is an important Leeds North East (Mr Hamilton) presses his amendment, starting point to establish that it is consistent with the we will certainly support him. Minister’s intentions—in other words, that it encompasses I have been debating Equitable Life in the House ever all the parliamentary ombudsman’s conclusions. I gather since I was first elected, and I well remember endless that there are moves afoot by the Public Administration debates in the two previous Parliaments in which I was Committee to interpret whether the ombudsman’s model joined by Conservative Members in trying to get the aligns with the payment scheme that eventually emerges. Labour Government to take action. I recognise that That might be a good idea, but perhaps it is a little some Labour Members also pushed their own Government circuitous. It would be far better, in my view, to give the for action. It was a long battle, and frankly we did not ombudsman directly the right and the opportunity to get very far. say publicly whether the payment scheme is indeed in When the new Government were formed, I cannot keeping with the spirit of her own findings. She could say I had any great enthusiasm for the thought of the then say whether the total relative loss figures are accurate coalition, but I did at least think that perhaps we could and whether the compensation scheme is fair, particularly get an end to this saga, which had brought so much given the controversy over the dates and whether some unfairness to so many people throughout the country, people will or will not be included in the 100% compensation many of them elderly. for with-profits annuitants. The purpose of our amendment is simply to give voice to the ombudsman so that she One difficulty has always been what the final can confirm her view. compensation bill should be. It is easy to get lost in figures, as they range from Chadwick’s £500 million up It is worth noting at this stage that, far from granting to EMAG’s latest figure of more than £6 billion, but the the wishes of the Equitable Life policyholders regarding generally accepted figure seems to be in the region of everything they wanted, the main pressure group formed £4.6 billion. The Government have set a figure of to speak for their interests, EMAG, is angry and perplexed £1.5 billion, which is about a third of that generally at the nature of the compensation scheme envisaged by accepted figure. I understand their reasoning that that is Ministers and the constraints placed on the independent all that can be afforded, but sorting out Equitable Life payments commission. EMAG says on its website: could have been one of their great early achievements. It “The independent Commission’s recently torn up terms of is being undermined by arbitrary decisions, the worst of reference have not at this date”— which is the overall cap on the amount. Rather than an independent commission considering the matter and this was a week after the announcement in the spending recommending a figure, a figure has been put in place review— and all the independent commission can do is decide “yet been replaced.” how it is divided among policyholders. 305 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 306

Mr Fabian Hamilton: As I mentioned in my contribution, discretion are not allowed to fetter their own discretion. about half the overall £1.5 billion package will be It is therefore necessary for the House to fetter the consumed by the 100% compensation for the 37,000 discretion of the Treasury. post-1992 with-profits annuitants. Does the hon. Gentleman I strongly support the view that we should not allow a agree that the remaining balance will provide a considerably situation in which the most elderly people will be excluded smaller sum in the pound to the rest of the policyholders? from compensation. In view of the fact that everyone places so much weight on the ombudsman’s contribution, Mr Weir: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. I understand I strongly support the amendment tabled by my hon. that the figure quoted by EMAG is about 15% of their Friend the Member for Nottingham East, which suggests loss, which is a very small amount for people who have that we should give her a further look at what is being suffered. proposed. It will be preposterous if, in trying to do what What could have been a very good outcome seems to the ombudsman wants, we end up doing something that have been undermined by arbitrary decisions. I hope she thinks is unsatisfactory and inadequate. The reasoning that the Financial Secretary will explain the rationale behind the amendment in my name is the same. behind excluding the 10,000 pre-1992 annuitants from I do not wish to say any more, but the House should compensation altogether. I do not understand the logic do its proper job of telling the Treasury what the rules of that. I do not see any suggestion that it should be should be when it considers the matter. I am not getting done in the ombudsman’s recommendations. at Ministers; I am getting at the Treasury as an organisation. I have said in previous debates that it is important It does not have a good record, and ethics and decency that this Parliament supports its independent ombudsman, are not major considerations for it. They never have and there seems to have been a major deviation from been, and perhaps they should not be its major what the ombudsman recommended. The hon. Member considerations, but we should bear them in mind, so for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) made some interesting that we can bear down upon the Treasury. and relevant points about how compensation for pre-1992 annuitants should be calculated, which is undoubtedly Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): The hon. a difficulty. I am not an actuary and cannot give him the Member for Leeds North East (Mr Hamilton) made an answer to that, but I do not think it is beyond the wit of impassioned and moral argument for amendment 1, to man—or even an actuary—to work out a figure. which I shall return later. Ultimately, this is a matter of principle. I raised that I have taken a very keen interest in this issue. It has point on Second Reading. We are dealing with a situation affected a significant number of people in Stratford-on- in which many thousands of our fellow citizens have Avon, to the extent that I have had hundreds of letters lost out through maladministration. The Government and e-mails about it. Like many other Members, I are ultimately responsible for that maladministration—the signed the EMAG pledge before the election, and I previous Government, not the present one, but they are believe that backing the Government to get the Bill the heirs to that. We should not accept the principle that through is delivering on that pledge. the Government can say, “Okay, there has been maladministration. We are responsible, but we will set a It is probably worth our spending just a few moments cap on how much compensation we give and then thinking about the economic landscape in which we are arbitrarily decide which of the group who have suffered operating. We are borrowing about £500 million a day. will be compensated.” That is a very bad principle. In Every time we go to sleep and wake up in the morning, no other case in which there has been loss and there is we notch up another £500 million. To service the debt liability would anyone be entitled to say, “I’m only costs about £120 million a day—that is not to pay it paying a proportion of that. That’s all I can afford.” down, but just to stand still. It is against that background The Government should not go down that route. that we must try to resolve the tragedy of Equitable I believe that we will debate an amendment later to Life. set up a totally independent organisation to consider Let me spend a couple of minutes on the timelines of the matter. We need that to be done independently, not the events. In 1988, Equitable Life stopped selling its with a cap and not with some people arbitrarily excluded. guaranteed annuity rate policies and, in 1990, those We will support amendment 1 if it is pressed, because it policies became too expensive to honour because of the is only reasonable. We have to right what has been a falls in interest rates and in inflation. In 1999, after the terrible injustice going back well over a decade. 1997 election, Equitable cut its bonus paid to 90,000 GAR policyholders. In July 2000, the ruled Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I that Equitable Life must meet its obligations to its shall speak very briefly in support of all three amendments GAR policyholders, thus leaving it with a £1.5 billion in this group—those tabled by my hon. Friends the liability. Members for Leeds North East (Mr Hamilton) and for In February 2001, the Halifax agreed to pay £1 billion Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), and even the one that I for the assets. In July, with- profits policyholders saw have tabled. the value of their savings slashed by 16%—by almost As drafted, the Bill leaves practically everything to one fifth. In August, Lord Penrose announced his the discretion of the Treasury, which I find objectionable. investigation. In October, the then Economic Secretary I remind the Committee of what to the Treasury told the Treasury Committee that the said about people at the Treasury—that they were previous Labour Government might consider compensation “like inverted Micawbers, waiting for something to turn down”. for some victims if a grave injustice had occurred. The chance of their coming to any generous conclusion In January 2002, policyholders backed a compromise for people who suffered in the Equitable Life scandal is package. In March 2004, the Penrose report blamed very small. The courts have held that bodies given Equitable Life’s management for the whole affair. Following 307 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 308

[Nadhim Zahawi] than the £340 million that victims would have received if the coalition Government had accepted the Chadwick the report’s publication, the Government ruled out report, which is what we feared would happen. I am compensation and were accused in this House of very comfortable with the sum being offered. abandoning policyholders. In April, the parliamentary ombudsman announced that she would reopen her Stephen Lloyd: I accept my hon. Friend’s premise that investigation. the amount is considerably higher than the previous In 2007, the European Parliament called on the UK Government proposed. I also accept that we are in a Government to compensate policyholders. In January desperate situation in which we are paying £120 million 2008, Equitable agreed to pay an undisclosed sum to a day to service a debt. That is outrageous and clearly 407 with-profits annuitants who launched proceedings we must focus on that. However, a way around the in 2004. The ombudsman’s report was published in challenge is the one that I have presented to the Economic 2008. The previous Government said that they would Secretary to the Treasury, which is to urge the Treasury respond by the autumn. When the deadline was missed, to revisit the matter in five years’ time for the second the then Prime Minister said that they would respond tranche of the £500 million. By then, the economy will before Christmas. However, they did not respond until be transformed and we will be in a stronger position. the new year. Does my hon. Friend not agree that while the £1.5 billion In August 2009, Sir John Chadwick published his seems a very generous sum at the minute, a little flexibility first interim report, and in March 2010—more than a from the Treasury means that the further £500 million year after his appointment—he published his third and could be revisited in five years’ time? final interim report with a promise of a final report in May 2010. That date was subsequently extended to July. Nadhim Zahawi rose— I go through these events in chronological order to demonstrate the pain that the victims of Equitable Life The First Deputy Chairman: Order. Before the hon. have had to go through. This is a true human tragedy. Gentleman responds to that intervention, may I remind The hon. Member for Leeds North East talked about Members that interventions should be short and that the e-mails and letters that he has received from his this is not a Second or Third Reading debate? We are constituents, and the same is happening in all our speaking to the amendments that are before us and if constituencies. we focus on them, we will make quicker progress. The Government’s offer is a very good one. My hon. Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) However, having listed that extraordinary chronology said that, at best, he expected them to offer up to of debacles, it is clear that there could be a problem if £1 billion. Many colleagues and I voiced our concerns we left things open and said, “We might be able to the last time we debated this matter in the Chamber. revisit them at some other stage”. We would be opening When one makes a pledge, one must try to honour it. up other doors, and that may cause further delay. I come from a world of business rather than of politics Richard Fuller: Like many of us, my hon. Friend is and I believe that, if we try to put a line under a terrible wrestling with this question of fairness and with the situation and compensate people, we should do it quickly political obligation to find a fair payment scheme that and completely. was mentioned in the Public Administration Committee and that many of us have signed up to. Hon. Members Mr Evans, I take on board your remarks. All I will from both sides of the Committee are caught between say is that the Minister should be applauded. There will wanting to praise the Minister for the swiftness of his be no means-testing and the dependants of the deceased recommendations—and we praise him for that—and policyholders should be included in any compensation. finding, in these difficult times, £1.5 billion. We often I have had a number of heartrending letters in which talk about that figure in comparison with the Chadwick relatives have written, saying, “It is too late for us number. However, does my hon. Friend not accept that because our loved ones have passed away.” we should view the figure with respect to what the I understand the passion that the hon. Member for Government themselves have said about policyholders’ Leeds North East has shown through amendment 1. relative loss, which Towers Watson estimated at, I think, The problem with the amendment was outlined by my £4.3 billion? Does £1.5 billion represent meeting our hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan obligation of fairness if it is set against the relative Evans), who said that it was very difficult to put a figure of £4.3 billion that the Government themselves quantum on what that number should be. In the current have accepted? economic climate, I would find it hard to support it if we said, “Oh well, maybe it is £100 million extra from reserves; maybe it’s £100 million that we can bring in 1.45 pm from future years.” None the less, the hon. Gentleman Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend is quite right: the made a strong point about the annuitants from 1991 going figure is £4.3 billion. I, too, have wrestled with the forward, and I hope that the Minister was listening problem. In the current economic climate, offering carefully. £1.5 billion to the victims is fair and it delivers on the promise that many of us have signed up to. I hope that Mr Fabian Hamilton: Does the hon. Gentleman not many colleagues will support the Government to expedite agree that creating an arbitrary date—which is what the the process and finally get money flowing to the victims, cut-off point would be—would lead to a great deal of which we hope will happen by the middle of next year. anger and distress among some of the oldest and most The figure of £1.5 billion is about four times higher vulnerable policyholders? 309 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 310

Nadhim Zahawi: The hon. Gentleman would be right there was a point in this Parliament when the coalition if the date were purely arbitrary.However, the ombudsman Government were seriously considering implementing stated that the malpractice occurred in 1991, so the date only what Chadwick had recommended, but we have is not quite as the hon. Gentleman puts it. It has not moved away from that. We have buried that, and we are been plucked out of the air. now in a much better place for the victims of Equitable Life. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Leaving aside the economic difficulties that we face, is not the Mark Durkan: My point still stands: the test is a central problem that when we put a cap on something, fairly easy one. The Chadwick report was so grossly we have to make it work? Therefore, we have to arrive at inadequate as not to be a credible starting point for any a certain formula to make the cap work, because we are Government. Many of us said that to the previous largely in the hands of the Treasury, as my right hon. Government, including the hon. Member for Leeds Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank North East (Mr Hamilton)—very bravely, loudly and Dobson) said earlier. Unless we get a grip on the consistently—and many of us have said it to this Treasury, we will find ourselves in similar situations, Government as well. and it is my guess that the Treasury has imposed the cap. For us as Members of the Houses of Parliament, the test that many people will apply is: what regard do we Nadhim Zahawi: The hon. Gentleman makes an have to the findings and recommendations of the interesting point. What I would say is that, in contrast parliamentary ombudsman? As the hon. Member for to the quotation from Winston Churchill earlier, my Angus (Mr Weir) stressed earlier, the public understand observation as a new boy to this House over the past six the parliamentary ombudsman to be a creature of months is that the Treasury has behaved positively. We Parliament and to have some weight and merit in must remember that we will be administering public Parliament’s considerations. However, the previous money. The Government have no money of their own; Government acted pretty dismissively towards the rather, we collect money on behalf of the people and ombudsman. What we have in some of the amendments then we administer it. It would be foolhardy and perhaps before us is an attempt to show clearly that this House even foolish for us to say, “Let’s have somebody else will give proper weight to what the parliamentary administer public money.”At the end of the day, people ombudsman is saying. have to have someone who is accountable, and we are We all received a letter from the parliamentary accountable, as is the Treasury. ombudsman about some of the Government’s proposals. Amendment 7 seeks to ensure that the Treasury takes Given that, is it wrong that we should reference the into account a proper evaluation of the total relative judgment of the parliamentary ombudsman—as the losses when determining payments—that is, the figure hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) is should not be £4.3 billion, but could be much higher. I suggesting we do with amendment 2—perhaps as a way strongly disagree with that. Many EMAG members of moving on from the scandal and confusion that have written to me, lobbying me to see the matter many feel surrounds the fact that the ombudsman was differently, but I have to say that I disagree. Given the largely ignored by the Government and, in effect, by current economic hardship, we all face an incredibly Parliament for so long? difficult situation, in which we are all having to tighten our belts. To deliver compensation of £1.5 billion at this Jonathan Evans: I am anxious to ensure that the hon. time is entirely fair. Gentleman does not undersell what the Minister has Amendment 2 is in the name of the hon. Member for done. The hon. Gentleman will recall that every aspect Leeds North East and all I would say to him is that I of the parliamentary ombudsman’s report has been understand the thrust of his argument that we should accepted by the Government and that, furthermore, the consider what the ombudsman says about the behaviour report said that whatever the overall compensation and actions of the coalition Government in dealing package should be, it had to take account of the impact with the issue. However, I would rather get things done on the public purse. Many of us on the Government and dusted, and have something delivered to the victims Benches think that those are the two crucial tests. than procrastinate further and wait for longer. Mark Durkan: That is what the hon. Gentleman is arguing. However, given that the money that we are Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I can fully appreciate talking about has been capped according to the Treasury’s what the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim judgment of what it believes is available—that means Zahawi) said about the Government’s proposals being that the overall sum to be offered by way of remedy and clearly better than what the previous Government did. redress will be a long way short of what all the other Frankly, that is not a very hard test to pass. The real test assessments say—I believe that it would useful for the for us in this Committee is surely not whether what we Committee to accept an amendment that would allow have from this Government is better than what we had us to ensure that the parliamentary ombudsman has from the previous Government. It clearly is better. some say in overseeing the measures. Under the Rather, we as a Committee have to see whether it is as circumstances, that is fair and reasonable, but if the good as what is set out in the parliamentary ombudsman’s hon. Gentleman is so content that the scheme as it findings and recommendations. stands meets everything that the ombudsman has said, he should see such an amendment as adding no particular Nadhim Zahawi: Just to offer some explanation, what stress or difficulty for the scheme. Such an amendment the Government have delivered is not just better than would be a way of offering public assurance after all the what the previous Government were thinking about—or doubts that have been raised about how Government dithering about—trying to deliver. I also believe that and Parliament have dealt with the issue. 311 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 312

Mr Weir: Does the hon. Gentleman not also agree It is not enough to say, “Well, this is great; we now that at no time did the ombudsman suggest that any have something that is better than Chadwick. We now group of annuitants should be debarred from receiving have something that is better than the previous compensation, as is now being proposed? Government’s proposals.” People were deeply distressed by the previous Government’s long inertia and indifference, Mark Durkan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that but they are not hugely impressed by urgent inadequacy. point, which quite properly brings me to amendment 1. The purpose of the amendments is to ensure that we do not make errors through urgent inadequacy. Jonathan Evans: I do not want to delay the hon. Gentleman, who is being very generous in giving way, but if he waits until Third Reading, he will hear what I Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I pay tribute to have to say about the totality of the package. the hon. Members who have spoken to the amendments. I praise our Treasury team, who have done a magnificent Mark Durkan: What a trailer for Third Reading! We job of righting the wrong that was done to Equitable will all be waiting. Life policyholders over many years. Opposition On amendment 1, the hon. Member for Leeds North Members—there are some exceptions—should hang East set out a compelling case for why it is not just the their heads in shame because of what they did when in cap, but the cut-off that we need to be seen to address. government to Equitable Life policyholders. I came to We have seen in the past how dates set for various the issue of the damage to policyholders rather late in reasons have ended up creating unfair and unforeseen the process—shortly before the general election. Like consequences that Parliament did not truly intend. That others, I was encouraged by my former employer to certainly happened with dates for schemes in previous invest in Equitable Life, but it was a good job that I did pension Bills, for reasons that seemed reasonable and not do so, or my view now might be different. understandable to the House at the time. We are now I remind hon. Members about the pledge that we struggling with the consequences that were never intended. made before the election: 380 MPs agreed to press for We must be wary about such cut-offs. proper compensation for victims by swift, simple, transparent and fair payment schemes, as recommended 2pm by the ombudsman; and we agreed that we would all The arguments from the hon. Member for Cardiff join the all-party group on justice for Equitable Life North about amendment 1 had some validity. I suggest policyholders. I agree with the pledge, which I signed, that some of the answers may be found in amendment 7, and I have honoured every element of it. A large which was tabled by the right hon. Member for Holborn number of colleagues have not joined the all-party and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). The hon. Member for group that I have the privilege of co-chairing, and I Cardiff North said that it might be harder for some encourage them to do so even if latterly. pre-1991 annuitants to make the case that some of their I want to concentrate on three aspects of the losses were directly due to maladministration and that amendments. The first is the moral duty that we owe to the nature, degree and pattern of maladministration people who relied on advice and on the system of the was more obvious and accentuated after that. If so, regulator, the Government and Equitable Life. There amendment 7 would allow account to be taken of that, was a major scandal, because those three bodies connived because it states: to swindle people out of their money. That is a sad “In determining the amount of the payments that it is appropriate indictment of what happened, and that is what set for the Treasury to authorise under subsection (2), the Treasury Equitable Life aside from all other aspects of the pension must have regard to such matters relating to the adverse effects of industry. We must demonstrate to people, especially that maladministration on those persons and the proper calculation of their resulting losses as have been determined by the Parliamentary young people, that it is worth investing in their future. Commissioner for Administration to be relevant to and appropriate If young people do not do so, there will be a sad and for that calculation.” sorry state of affairs in this country. There is a clear Amendment 7 would cut both ways. It would be moral duty. an assurance that the loss suffered because of The second issue is the amount of money that is due maladministration is duly reflected, and it could be in compensation. I am delighted that the Treasury used the other way because if it can be shown that some accepted that the ombudsman’s recommendation of of the people who would be brought into the scheme by £4.26 billion was the right amount to which policyholders virtue of amendment 1 had not suffered because of were entitled. The debate today is not about money, but maladministration, due weight could be given to that. the Treasury team have come to a view that because of Equally, the pre-1991 undue profits issue—some people the economic circumstances only £1.5 billion is affordable. went for market glister rather than reliable long-term They have also had regard to the ombudsman’s report, worth—would not be precluded from being properly which said clearly that relative loss must be taken into addressed and balanced. We all want to achieve an account. The Treasury team must have done some adequate compensation scheme. calculations to reach the figure of £1.5 billion, and I I shall support amendment 1 if it is pressed to a vote, trust that the Minister will tell us in his reply today how and I commend amendments 2 and 7. Together, they that figure was arrived at. The reduction from £4.26 billion would go some way to improving the Bill. They would to £1.5 billion is dramatic, and he must respond to our also go some way to improving Parliament’s reputation points. at a time when people have been so disappointed and frustrated by how long this problem has been allowed to Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): My hon. Friend eloquently run on. I welcome the Minister’s assurances, which he sets out the outrage that many of us feel, having signed made in an intervention, that the interests of the dependants the pledge. Does he agree that our Government, unlike of those who have died will also be properly addressed. the previous Government, have reached a speedy conclusion, 313 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 314 as a result of which more people in the claimant group who are now living on desperately low pensions, having will receive compensation before there are further deaths? expected much larger ones, and we have a very strong I agree with my hon. Friend about transparency and I, moral duty to all those people. We throw that away at too, would support a motion to set out exactly how the our peril. calculations were made, in the spirit of our Government’s commitment to greater transparency in all financial Dr Sarah Wollaston () (Con): This is not just a matters. question of fairness. Many of those individuals are older and very vulnerable indeed. The letters that I have Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend for her received make the point that those people are living on intervention. The issues are complex, and the more one very low incomes at a very vulnerable time of their lives, reads about and understands the scandal, the more and they have already suffered from the effects of inflation. difficult it becomes to resolve it. The Government in I agree with my hon. Friend that we should talk about their wisdom have set out a compensation scheme that this as parliamentarians, not on a party political basis. will continue for many years. The £1.5 billion is not a one-off payment that will go into a fund this year and Bob Blackman: My hon. Friend clearly demonstrates end the matter. It will be spread over many years, and it that we are talking about the oldest and most vulnerable will extend into the next Parliament. people, and that they have been dealt with in a most disgraceful way following this scandal. We have a moral Mr Hoban: May I clarify the fact that those who duty to compensate them. receive compensation and are not with-profits policyholders Going back to the points made by my hon. Friend will receive a one-off payment during this Parliament. the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans), it is Only with-profits annuitants will have their payments clear that when the bonuses that were attached early in spread over the rest of their lives. the process are taken into account, some policyholders might not receive a penny piece in compensation. We Bob Blackman: I thank the Minister for his intervention. need to recognise that, but there is an 18-month gap I was going to refer to that while I was responding to between the cut-off dates. A large number of the retired the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for people who had taken out annuities could not adjust Devizes (Claire Perry). The clear issue now is justice for them once they had purchased them, and they are now the people in the worst possible position—the trapped trapped in that position. That is why we have a moral annuitants. I applaud the Government for honouring duty to compensate them. the pledge that 37,000 people who have been trapped as a result of the scandal will receive 100% compensation. Nadhim Zahawi: What action would my hon. Friend I strongly support and endorse that. recommend? My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff We have a problem, however, and amendment 1 attempts North mentioned the possibility of people being judged to address it. The amendment has cross-party support; to have received too much. Should we take that money we must be seen to be acting not just as a party but as away from them? The malpractice took place in 1991, parliamentarians overseeing the Executive. The problem and we should be talking about 1991, not about 1992 or is that if someone took out a policy on a particular day, about an open-ended process. they would receive no compensation at all, even though the maladministration was taking place at the time; Bob Blackman: Clearly, if exorbitant bonuses were whereas someone who took out a policy on the following attached to certain policies, the policyholders would day would get 100% compensation. There are always not be due compensation and they would not receive a difficulties when arbitrary dates are set, but that is penny piece. Remember, we are talking about compensation. neither fair nor reasonable. We cannot take money off policyholders who have been receiving pensions. Parliament just cannot do that; it I believe that we should set aside the date and review would be a retrograde tax and therefore unacceptable. all the trapped annuitants to ensure that they get fair Those who are due compensation should receive it, but and proper compensation. The Chadwick report has those who are not due any would not receive any, and if been rubbished by EMAG, and by Members on both they have benefited in the meantime, well, that is fine sides of the House, but even Chadwick proposed a and dandy for them. scheme that would have compensated those trapped annuitants whose policies were taken out before the Jonathan Evans: In regard to the morality of the cut-off date. issue, I agree with many of my hon. Friend’s arguments. My concern, however, relates to the practicalities involved Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): When my hon. when people are policyholders with other companies. Friend signed the EMAG pledge, as many hon. Members Many of them had large bonuses from the 1980s onwards, across the House have done, did he believe that we but get hardly any at all nowadays. We have to take would end up leaving out about 10,000 pre-1992 annuitants account of this when we look at their asset share, from the compensation scheme? compared with everyone else in the pool in a with-profits system. That is why many people believe that there is no Bob Blackman: I and all the others who are new to future for with-profits business nowadays. the House signed the pledge in the belief that, if we were elected, we would compensate everyone who had 2.15 pm suffered as a result of the maladministration, rather than taking an arbitrary position to compensate some Bob Blackman: The independent commission will and not others. I have heard heart-rending stories from need to look at the relative loss that individual policyholders my constituents and from people all over the country have experienced as a result of the maladministration. 315 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 316

[Bob Blackman] It was always part of the parliamentary ombudsman’s report that this would be a political decision for the If annuitants took out policies well before the Government to make, taking the public finances into maladministration took place, there would be no relative account when they set the cap. The Government have loss, and they would receive no compensation. The nub set the cap at £1.5 billion. I wish it could have been of the issue is that we want the review to be independent, more, and I hope that it will be possible to revisit this in so that we can all look the policyholders in the eye and future when the public finances are in a better state. say that we have honoured our pledge to ensure that I have sympathy for amendment 1, but let me state they were treated properly, and properly compensated. my understanding of how it would work in practice. It Under the Bill as it is drafted, we cannot do that does not alter the cap that has already been set, so if the because of the arbitrary cut-off date. pre-September 1992 with-profits annuitants were to be compensated to the same level as the post-September Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): My 1992 with-profits annuitants, there would be less for the hon. Friend is obviously extremely knowledgeable on latter group of people. If the cap remains the same, and this subject. Does he agree that this is perhaps not so the amendment does not alter the cap, giving more to much a question of a specific date as of whether or not some people would mean giving less to others. I ask the a policyholder was trapped? If they are trapped, there is Financial Secretary and the hon. Member for Leeds absolutely nothing they can do about it. North East (Mr Hamilton) who moved the amendment to comment on that when they respond. Bob Blackman: That is clearly where our moral duty I want to press the Government on why they have arises. If policyholders are trapped and cannot adjust chosen the date of September 1992. As other hon. their position, they are unable to rectify the damage Members have said, the maladministration started in that has been done. June 1991. Penrose found that when the Equitable Life I want to speak briefly to amendment 7. The Government Assurance Society’s board papers were sent to the have accepted that £4.26 billion should be the full Government Actuary’s Department on 11 June 1991, amount available to policyholders, 37,000 of whom will there was information in those papers showing that the receive 100% compensation. That clearly involves a society was not in a good position. Had the Government huge amount of money, which will come out of the Actuary’s Department publicised that information at £1.5 billion. The policyholders who are not trapped that time, investors would have been deterred from annuitants would therefore get something like 15% of investing in the society. There is a strong argument for the compensation due to them, which seems pretty saying that the date should not be September 1992, but unfair and unreasonable. We should set up a commission June 1991. to devise a payment scheme, then look at the results. On 30 July 1992, in an internal briefing, the Government Instead, £1.5 billion has now been set aside, and an Actuary’s Department described the society as being independent commission will set up the mechanism for one of the distributing that money. That could have very serious “companies on whom we have been keeping a close watch for a consequences indeed. number of years” Parliament has a problem in this regard. I applaud and said that Equitable Life remained a company “which the Government for moving swiftly to settle this matter caused serious concern”. There was evidence in July once and for all, but we are setting up a method for 1992—in fact, before July 1992—that the Government distributing the money and creating expectations out Actuary’s Department was aware that Equitable Life there. About 1.4 million policyholders have been affected had problems. Surely that should have been made public by the scandal, and 37,000 will receive full compensation and investors should have been deterred. In his response, while 10,000 will not get a penny. That leaves rather a will the Minister clarify why the date of September 1992 lot of policyholders among whom to divide a relatively was chosen, because it certainly seems to me that an small amount of money. When the Minister responds to earlier date—say, June 1991 or possibly even earlier—would the debate, I trust that he will be able to set out how the have been more appropriate? calculations were made, so that we can be clear about them. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I would like to Amendment 7 would allow us to review the position speak mainly about the position of with-profits annuitants in five years’ time, when the economy has recovered and and the pledge that I and other Members of all parties the benefits of this Government are clear for all to see, made before the general election—that the Government and to top up the compensation further for those people should make fair and transparent payments to those who will be retiring in five, 10, 15 or 25 years’ time. We who had suffered as a consequence of the debacle of also have a moral duty to honour our pledge to those Equitable Life. I am talking about 350 local people in people. This is one of those cases in which we have set my constituency who are part of the Equitable Members out to do something in the proper way, and I applaud Action Group. Those 350 include people associated those on the Treasury Bench for moving swiftly to bring with many companies that were in the Equitable Life the matter to a conclusion so that payments can be scheme. Many hundreds of other people are affected. made as soon as possible, but we must ensure that we For some, Equitable Life provided their only private fulfil our moral duty to those policyholders. pension to supplement their state pension provision. I welcome the fact that for a number of my constituents, Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I start by that pledge has been made good, and I understand that putting firmly on the record my belief that the Government the trapped annuitants in the post-1992 cohort will have implemented the parliamentary ombudsman’s report receive 100% of their compensation. I am delighted and have honoured the pledges made before the election. about that. Needless to say, I am also very concerned 317 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 318 for the pre-1992 Equitable Life investors for whom, it I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss, first, the seems, there will be no compensation at all. That seems role of the parliamentary ombudsman in developing contrary to the recommendations of the parliamentary our policy on the payment scheme. Her work has been ombudsman, contrary to EMAG’s suggestions and contrary central to our approach. I also want to focus on with-profits to the views of Sir John Chadwick, for whom not many annuitants and those who took out their policies prior Members have a great deal of time. to September 1992. These issues have been raised I understand that it is difficult to quantify the losses, particularly since our announcements in the spending but, if the Government have the will, the losses of the review. I hope that I can bring some clarity to the pre-1992 annuitants should be explored. The people to treatment of different groups of with-profits annuitants. whom we made a pledge before the general election in May were not necessarily concerned whether they were pre-1992 annuitants or post-1992 annuitants. Their concern 2.30 pm was as Equitable Life policyholders looking for justice. At the spending review, my right hon. Friend the If the Government and the Treasury have the will to Chancellor announced that about £1.5 billion of deal with this situation, they should do so; if not, they funding will be provided for the Equitable Life should explain how I justify the position to constituents payment scheme. As hon. Members have said, that is who have been wronged. more than four times the figure produced by the Chadwick process, which was set in motion by the Opposition. If the Government and the Treasury are prepared to The funding includes the full cost of losses to policyholders look at compensating the pre-1992 annuitants, there with with-profits annuity policies—approximately has to be a health warning, because there is a law of £620 million—which will be paid through regular payments. unintended consequences, should we be stuck at the That amount is to cover those with with-profits annuity compensation figure of £1.5 billion. Many of my policies, whose policies started between 1 September constituents who are post-1992 annuitants might be 1992 and 31 December 2000. As hon. Members have unaffected by any decision to include the pre-1992 indicated, those who took out with-profits annuity policies annuitants. prior to 1992—in fact, not just with-profits annuitants Amendment 7 deals with that position and the relative but anyone who took out a policy prior to 1 September losses. The Treasury should consider it, although I am 1992—are excluded from the scheme. The Government concerned about whether it could be taken into account are committed to implementing the ombudsman’s within the current comprehensive spending review or recommendation to introduce a fair and transparent would need to be considered after the current CSR payment scheme to Equitable Life policyholders for period expires. their relative loss as a result of regulatory failure. That is what the ombudsman asked us to do, and that is what I would like to ask the Minister several questions. we are implementing. The Bill authorises us to make First, will he look again at how to compensate the payment under the scheme. pre-1992 annuitants, and at how that might be quantified? Will he commit to working with his Treasury colleagues to take into account payments beyond the CSR period Nadhim Zahawi: Is it not precisely the point that, to enable the pre-1992 annuitants to be compensated rather than being an open-ended compensation scheme, without prejudicing the position of the post-1992 annuitants the scheme relates to malpractice? and that of Equitable Life policyholders generally? I implore the Minister again—I did so in the last Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Our debate on this subject—to recognise that the Government’s obligation is to compensate people for regulatory failure decision over Equitable Life raises questions not only by the Government when they were the regulator of about the integrity of the current Government, but Equitable Life. The scheme is not an open-ended about the integrity of savings and investments for one’s compensation scheme. It is very focused, and that was retirement. I am well aware that many of my constituents the ombudsman’s recommendation. Her locus in this do not have their own retirement provision. The matter is a consequence of the Government having Government should encourage people to provide for acted as the regulator for Equitable Life during the their retirement, but if we do not ensure that there is a period in question. safety net for people who have invested and done the Let me explain to the Committee and to the hon. right thing for their retirement, they will think that it is Member for Leeds North East (Mr Hamilton), who not worth putting themselves out by investing money raised the question, why 1 September 1992 is a logical, for their retirements during their early years of work. not arbitrary, date. The ombudsman indicated in her I ask the Minister to consider those points extremely report that there were problems with the regulatory carefully before any decisions are taken this afternoon. returns for 1991, and that those could influence policyholder behaviour. However, they could not have come to the attention of policyholders, and prospective policyholders, Mr Hoban: I start by referring to the closing question before they were submitted at the end of June 1992. No from my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones). policyholder would have been aware of that regulatory He will be aware that in July we published proposals to failure until the returns had been published. It is unlikely strengthen the regulation of retail financial services, that those returns would have come to anyone’s attention including pensions, which I hope will go some way prior to 1 September 1992. I stress that the date is not towards reassuring people that we have learned the arbitrary, but a consequence of the ombudsman’s findings lessons from the past and put in place a much more and how they impact on what policyholders would have stable and robust framework for the regulation of long-term been aware of. Policyholders would not have been aware savings. of the regulatory failure until the autumn of 1992. 319 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 320

Mr Fabian Hamilton: I accept the Minister’s point Mr Hoban: I do not agree with that point. There is a about the date not being arbitrary, but does he not clear principle: the basis on which people were investing accept that the regulatory failure affected those annuitants in Equitable Life. At that point, no one knew about the who could not change their annuities, even if they were maladministration. purchased before September 1992? Along with those We should also bear in mind the issue of practicality annuitants who purchased policies after September 1992, and the lack of information available to Equitable Life’s they continue to see a decline. Therefore, they were policyholders. Hon. Members should reflect on the fact affected by regulatory failure. that no one would have made investment decisions based on anything that happened prior to 1992 until Mr Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an assumption that information was in the public domain. That is why that the scheme is open-ended, but it is designed to the group has been excluded from the calculation of compensate policyholders who invested in Equitable relative loss. Life from 1 September 1992. With regard to the implications of that, I shall respond to the intervention by my hon. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): My Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans). hon. Friend is being generous in giving way. No one suggests that the situation is not difficult, but whether Mr Weir: Will the Minister explain further, as I do or not one was aware of maladministration, and whether not quite understand? He seems to be saying that only or not it existed pre ’92, surely the central point is that those who became aware of a regulatory failure in 1992 annuitants who took out a policy pre ’92 suffered are affected. However, am I not right in thinking that relative loss post ’92, courtesy of maladministration. To that suggests that the regulatory failure goes back prior return to an earlier point, perhaps there is a moral duty to 1992, and would have affected people then, although to include such people in the compensation, as I believe they would not have been aware of it? Are those people that the parliamentary ombudsman suggested. not entitled to compensation? Mr Hoban: The parliamentary ombudsman’s findings Mr Hoban: The ombudsman is concerned about people were clear: she said that the maladministration started who invested in Equitable Life who might not have in 1991, but that it would not have been obvious to done so had they been aware of that regulatory failure. policyholders until September 1992. That regulatory failure would not have been known to them until September 1992, so there is a clear, rational Let me deal with two issues that hon. Members argument for 1 September 1992 being the right date to should have take into account in assessing the point. start the calculation of losses. First, as has been mentioned, there are challenges around getting information for the pre ’92 period. Secondly, there is the point made by my hon. Friend the Member Several hon. Members rose— for Cardiff North about the timing of losses. We recognise that pre ’92 with-profits annuitants were affected by Mr Hoban: Let me continue. how Equitable Life was run. Sir John Chadwick and Towers Watson looked into what those WPAs would We are excluding that group of people because they have received from Equitable Life had there been no took out policies before any maladministration could maladministration. They concluded that they received have affected their investment decision. Therefore, to more from Equitable Life as a result of maladministration echo my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North, than they would have done had it been properly regulated. they suffered no relative loss. That was because Equitable Life paid out more to them in the early years than it would have done had there Bob Blackman: But will the Minister answer the been no maladministration. Let me give an example to moral issue? At the time when people were making prove that. investment decisions, and taking out these policies, the If a with-profits annuitant had purchased their policy regulatory failure was going on. As they became victims in 1989 and gained through that purchase an income of of that regulatory failure, surely we have a moral duty £7,200, by 1993 the policyholder would have been receiving to compensate them. an annuity of approximately £10,000 per annum. Part of that sum was a result of the bonuses that had been Mr Hoban: When people made the decision on the declared on the policy since commencement. It is recognised information available to them, the relevant information that Equitable Life was paying higher bonuses than it was not in the public domain, and would not have could afford during the late ‘80s and early 1990s. If affected their investment decision until September 1992. Equitable Life had not been over-bonusing during that That is a clear, logical, sensible starting point, based on period, Towers Watson has calculated that the policyholder principles and on the ombudsman’s findings, for the would have received only £9,500 per year. It is a maladministration, and that is the point from which we consequence of the maladministration that the policyholder should calculate relative loss for policyholders. is receiving £500 more than he or she should have during that period. Mark Durkan: The Minister is in danger of asking Equitable Life continued to overpay bonuses throughout the Committee to accept the notion that customer most of the 1990s. As a result, by 2002 that policyholder ignorance can be a legislator’s excuse. That cannot be was receiving £17,000 per annum. If the over-bonusing so. If the Minister is trying to say that what they did not had not taken place, the policyholder would have received know did them no harm, that is preposterous. They did only £15,800, so he or she was still receiving more as a not know, and they have suffered harm. consequence of maladministration. 321 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 322

In 2003, Equitable Life cut the rate of annuity payments 2.45 pm to its with-profits policyholders by about 20%. In the A number of Members mentioned Sir John Chadwick. absence of maladministration, the value of payments to My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob with-profits policyholders would also have been cut, Blackman) said that Sir John’s report had been rubbished although, owing to market performance, by only 18%. by some people. The report included a mechanism for After the cuts in 2003, our example policyholder was the calculation of internal relative loss that would have receiving £12,900 per year from Equitable Life. Had dealt with the pre-1992 annuitants, but, as my hon. there been no maladministration, he or she would have Friend said, there was widespread criticism of it, not been receiving only £12,300. I hope that that example just in the House but by all the commentators, by has helped to clarify the consequences of maladministration, EMAG and by others. No one came forward with an namely that even after the cuts in 2003 policyholders alternative scheme to compensate the pre-1992 annuitants, are still receiving more than they would have if Equitable because no one had really thought about them. It needs Life had been properly regulated. For a range of reasons, to be recognised that they fall outside the parameters of their plight is not as it has been represented. the ombudsman’s report, because she did not envisage a The first question to be asked, then, is “When did need to compensate them. maladministration affect policyholders and the decisions Let me now deal with the future role of the ombudsman that were made?” The second relates to the practicality in this process. When we came to office, we pledged to of extracting data pre-1992, which is well established “implement the Parliamentary Ombudsman’s recommendation and has been well aired in the Chadwick report and to make fair and transparent payments to Equitable Life elsewhere; and the third concerns the consequence of policyholders”. maladministration in Equitable Life, which is that with- profits annuitants are receiving more over the lifetime My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer of their policy than they would have received if that confirmed that pledge at the time of the comprehensive maladministration had not taken place. spending review, when he announced our plans that we have for the scheme. Jonathan Evans: I was interested in the way in which As we all know, the ombudsman has worked tirelessly my hon. Friend dealt with my point about over-bonusing, to help to ensure that justice is delivered to the policyholders but I feel that he has undermined another point that I who have waited so long for a resolution of this issue. made: I suggested that it was not possible to make such Her continued interest in the matter has been of great calculations, but my hon. Friend has suggested that help, and has brought some clarity to what is clearly a Towers Watson has done so. In a sense that also undermines very complex issue. The ombudsman has been generous the thrust of why the pre-1992 policyholders should be with her time, and has continued to contribute to the excluded. I had assumed that they might not have been debate. She has, for instance, appeared before the Public disadvantaged and that it was too difficult to work out Administration Committee. I discussed the Chadwick the numbers, but if Towers Watson has worked out report with her in the run-up to the spending review, those numbers and there is no relative loss, it seems a bit and her views helped the Government to reach a view odd not to include them, at least for the purpose of on the losses suffered by policyholders. calculating the position and telling them that there is no I should welcome any continued contribution that loss. the ombudsman might wish to make to the debate on Mr Hoban: I was trying to make two points. First, Equitable Life, and if she wished to advise Parliament those policyholders were excluded from the calculation of her views on the work of the independent commission, of relative loss as a consequence of the ombudsman’s that would assist both the House and the Government; findings and her view on when maladministration had however, I think it would be inappropriate to require taken place. According to the example that I have given, her to play such a role. Her role and remit are clearly set they would not have suffered loss in any event. I am out in the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967, which merely saying that, in my opinion, there is a strong case does not give the ombudsman a standing obligation to in principle for the exclusion of those policyholders, continue to advise this House as to the response to her and in practical terms they have not suffered loss. reports. There is good reason for that, not least the need to make appropriate use of the ombudsman’s resources. Mark Durkan: Will the Minister give way? It must be for the ombudsman herself to decide what role she wishes to play once she has finished her Mr Hoban: I want to make some more progress. investigation. The fact that with-profits annuitants who bought The hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) their annuities before 1 September 1992 have seen a asked how we would implement the ombudsman’s reduction in the level of payments that they currently approach. We have said that the Government accept the receive from their annuities is a result of poor investment calculation of relative loss as £4.3 billion. The ombudsman market performance and the fact that their earlier annuity wrote to Members on 26 July this year saying that she payments were artificially high. That was because of the recognised that the relative-loss approach adopted by structure of the policies that they bought, or because Towers Watson they received too much in the earlier years, as Equitable “provides a firm foundation on which to build.” Life paid out more on a discretionary basis than it should have. Unlike the value of conventional annuities, That is the basis on which we introduced the scheme the value of a with-profits annuity varies according to and accepted the losses. investment return. Although the reductions are regrettable, The independent commission will advise on the allocation they are not instances of Government maladministration, of remaining funds to not-with-profits annuitants, apart and therefore Government should not be providing from the post-1992 WPAs. The Equitable Life database compensation for that group of policyholders. allows us to apply relative-loss methodology to each 323 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 324 policyholder’s data, so there will be no individual Lucas, Caroline Smith, rh Mr Andrew requirement to claim or provide evidence of claim, or MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stringer, Graham indeed to reveal the instances of maladministration that Mactaggart, Fiona Stuart, Ms Gisela are relied on. That will benefit all policyholders who Mann, John Vaz, rh Keith suffered relative loss. The ombudsman spoke of reliance McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Walley, Joan on regulatory returns, but Sir John’s alternative approach McDonnell, John Weir, Mr Mike McGovern, Jim Whiteford, Dr Eilidh does not require us to ascertain what reliance was Miller, Andrew involved. Effectively, that gives people the benefit of the Whitehead, Dr Alan Mitchell, Austin Whittaker, Craig doubt, and in my view it means a simpler, fairer and Moon, Mrs Madeleine more transparent scheme. Williams, Hywel Mudie, Mr George Wilson, Sammy Sir John also talked about the distribution of losses, Murphy, rh Paul Wishart, Pete Osborne, Sandra which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member Wollaston, Dr Sarah Paisley, Ian for Harrow East. Thirty per cent. of policyholders Wood, Mike suffered no loss at all, about 405 suffered a loss of Shannon, Jim between £1 and £1,000, and 60% suffered a loss of Sheerman, Mr Barry Tellers for the Ayes: between £1 and £5,000. Therefore, as Members will Simpson, David Mr Fabian Hamilton and Skinner, Mr Dennis Stephen Lloyd recognise, the distribution of losses is quite varied. A large number of policyholders either have no loss or suffered a relatively small loss. That gives the payments NOES commission some flexibility in respect of the design of Adams, Nigel Clappison, Mr James the scheme and how to use the pot. I should, however, Afriyie, Adam Clark, rh Greg stress to Members that the amount that is available is Aldous, Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey fixed, so while we may want to be more generous to one Alexander, rh Danny Coffey, Dr Thérèse group, that would mean that another group suffers. We Amess, Mr David Collins, Damian need to bear that in mind in considering eligibility. Andrew, Stuart Cox, Mr Geoffrey Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Crabb, Stephen I encourage my hon. Friends to reject any amendments Bacon, Mr Richard Crockart, Mike in this group that are put to a vote. We have come up Bagshawe, Ms Louise Crouch, Tracey with a fair scheme that is based on the ombudsman’s Baker, Norman Davey, Mr Edward findings; the loss reflects her calculation. I therefore Baker, Steve Davies, David T. C. think this is a good scheme, representing a balance of Baldry, Tony (Monmouth) fairness between policyholders and taxpayers. Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Glyn Barker, Gregory de Bois, Nick Mr Fabian Hamilton: I am grateful to the Minister for Barwell, Gavin Dinenage, Caroline his clear explanation of his rationale for the compensation Bebb, Guto Djanogly, Mr Jonathan scheme. I am afraid, however, that I still do not accept Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorries, Nadine Benyon, Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie the argument that the cut-off should be absolute and Beresford, Sir Paul Drax, Richard rigid and that those who took out annuities before 1 Berry, Jake Duddridge, James September 1992 should not receive any compensation Binley, Mr Brian Duncan, rh Mr Alan or be eligible in any way. As I do not fully accept his Birtwistle, Gordon Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain argument, I will press amendment 1 to a vote. Blackwood, Nicola Dunne, Mr Philip Question put, That the amendment be made. Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellis, Michael Boles, Nick Ellison, Jane The Committee divided: Ayes 76, Noes 301. Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Division No. 114] [2.51 pm Bradley, Karen Elphicke, Charlie Brady, Mr Graham Eustice, George AYES Brake, Tom Evans, Graham Bray, Angie Evans, Jonathan Alexander, Heidi Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Brazier, Mr Julian Evennett, Mr David Baron, Mr John Dowd, Jim Bridgen, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Bayley, Hugh Durkan, Mark Brine, Mr Steve Fallon, Michael Bell, Sir Stuart Edwards, Jonathan Brokenshire, James Farron, Tim Bingham, Andrew Flynn, Paul Browne, Mr Jeremy Featherstone, Lynne Blackman, Bob Freer, Mike Bruce, rh Malcolm Field, Mr Mark Blenkinsop, Tom Fuller, Richard Burley, Mr Aidan Foster, Mr Don Burden, Richard Gardiner, Barry Burns, Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Campbell, Mr Gregory Gilmore, Sheila Burns, Mr Simon Freeman, George Campbell, Mr Ronnie Glass, Pat Caton, Martin Godsiff, Mr Roger Burstow, Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Clark, Katy Harris, Mr Tom Burt, Alistair Gale, Mr Roger Clarke, rh Mr Tom Havard, Mr Dai Burt, Lorely Gauke, Mr David Cooper, Rosie Henderson, Gordon Byles, Dan Gibb, Mr Nick Corbyn, Jeremy Hermon, Lady Cairns, Alun Gilbert, Stephen Crausby, Mr David Hopkins, Kelvin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Cryer, John Hosie, Stewart Carmichael, Mr Alistair Glen, John Cunningham, Mr Jim Howarth, rh Mr George Carmichael, Neil Goldsmith, Zac Davidson, Mr Ian Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Carswell, Mr Douglas Goodwill, Mr Robert Davis, rh Mr David Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Cash, Mr William Graham, Richard Dobson, rh Frank Long, Naomi Chishti, Rehman Grant, Mrs Helen Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Love, Mr Andrew Chope, Mr Christopher Grayling, rh Chris 325 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 326

Green, Damian McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Vaizey, Mr Edward Greening, Justine McPartland, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Vara, Mr Shailesh Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Vickers, Martin Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Gummer, Ben Mercer, Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark Walker, Mr Charles Gyimah, Mr Sam Metcalfe, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Walker, Mr Robin Halfon, Robert Miller, Maria Stephenson, Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Ward, Mr David Hammond, Stephen Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Bob Watkinson, Angela Hancock, Matthew Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Iain Weatherley, Mike Hancock, Mr Mike Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Rory Webb, Steve Hands, Greg Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Mr Gary Wharton, James Harper, Mr Mark Morris, David Stride, Mel Wheeler, Heather Harrington, Richard Morris, James Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris Harris, Rebecca Mosley, Stephen Stunell, Andrew Whittaker, Craig Hart, Simon Mowat, David Sturdy, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Harvey, Nick Mulholland, Greg Swales, Ian Wiggin, Bill Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Roger Heald, Mr Oliver Murray, Sheryll Swinson, Jo Williams, Stephen Heath, Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Williamson, Gavin Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Tapsell, Sir Peter Willott, Jenny Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Teather, Sarah Wilson, Mr Rob Hendry, Charles Newton, Sarah Thurso, John Wright, Simon Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Timpson, Mr Edward Yeo, Mr Tim Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Tomlinson, Justin Young, rh Sir , George Nuttall, Mr David Tredinnick, David Zahawi, Nadhim Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew Truss, Elizabeth Horwood, Martin Opperman, Guy Turner, Mr Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Howarth, Mr Gerald Ottaway, Richard Tyrie, Mr Andrew and Howell, John Paice, Mr James Uppal, Paul Mark Hunter Hughes, Simon Parish, Neil Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Patel, Priti Question accordingly negatived. Huppert, Dr Julian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark James, Margot Penning, Mike Chris Leslie: I beg to move amendment 3, page 1, line 7, at Javid, Sajid Penrose, John end insert— Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew ‘(2B) The design and administration of any scheme of Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire payments to which this section applies shall be independent of Johnson, Joseph Phillips, Stephen government.’. Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel The First Deputy Chairman: With this it will be Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark convenient to discuss the following: Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pugh, Dr John Amendment 4, page 1, line 7, at end insert— Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Knight, rh Mr Greg Randall, rh Mr John ‘(2C) The Treasury shall publish details of the independent Kwarteng, Kwasi Reckless, Mark appeals procedure for policyholders as defined in subsection (2) Laing, Mrs Eleanor Redwood, rh Mr John above to use in the event of dispute over the compensation Lamb, Norman Rees-Mogg, Jacob payment decision in their case, no later than three months after Lancaster, Mark Reevell, Simon commencement of this Act.’. Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Government amendment 6. Latham, Pauline Robathan, Mr Andrew New clause 1—Distribution of payments— Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Hugh Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, Mr Laurence ‘(1) An independent payments commission shall be established Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan comprising three members appointed by the Secretary of State. Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew (2) The independent payments commission shall design a Lefroy, Jeremy Rudd, Amber distribution scheme for payments made arising from this Act. Leigh, Mr Edward Ruffley, Mr David (3) In designing a distribution scheme under subsection (2) the Leslie, Charlotte Russell, Bob independent payments commission shall consult with interested Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David parties, including the Equitable Life Assurance Society and Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura representatives of policyholders. Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Scott, Mr Lee (4) The Treasury may make provision by order made by Lidington, Mr David Selous, Andrew statutory instrument for payments to be made in line with the Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shapps, rh Grant distribution scheme designed by the independent payments Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok commission. Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec (5) A statutory instrument containing an order under Loughton, Tim Shepherd, Mr Richard subsection (4) may not be made unless a draft has been laid Lumley, Karen Simmonds, Mark before and approved by resolution of each House of Macleod, Mary Simpson, Mr Keith Parliament.’. Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris McCartney, Jason Smith, Miss Chloe Chris Leslie: I shall speak to amendments 3 and 4, McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry which stand in my name and the names of my hon. McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Friends. Amendment 3 would enshrine in the Bill the 327 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 328

[Chris Leslie] moving away from the ex gratia model in the Chadwick methodology and instead accepting the ombudsman’s fact that the design and administration of any payments approach to compensation. scheme should be independent of Government. It is I was glad that the Minister said there were components pretty straightforward and simple—in fact, it would be of the Chadwick methodology that he favoured bringing difficult for it to be more straightforward and simple—but into any compensation scheme—specifically that there we think it important to try to encourage the Government would be no burden of proof on individual policyholders to enshrine in the Bill the Minister’s pronouncements so to show that they had been misled by the regulatory far that the design of the compensation scheme should returns. That would certainly make the scheme simpler. be independent of Government. That is an extremely Will the Minister take this opportunity to tell us whether important point, especially as it was part of the conclusions the independent payments commission will eventually drawn by the parliamentary ombudsman herself. metamorphose into an authority for administering the The Minister has asked the independent commission, payments? If so, will it be asked to design an appeals chaired by Brian Pomeroy, to report by the end of system, or is it the Treasury’s intention to undertake January, but there is too much wiggle room for the that part of the design? Minister then to take those recommendations and bring Perhaps the Minister could say whether he sees any the design and the administration of the subsequent parallels with the appeals system set up when the former payments scheme in-house within the Treasury. I see no Department of Trade and Industry introduced an appeals clear reason why the Bill does not contain clarity on mechanism in respect of the ill-health complaints about the next steps forward, particularly in relation to the what was then known as vibration white finger. He will daunting task of creating a payments scheme to cover remember that a series of complex compensation payments upwards of 1 million policyholders not falling into the were made in those cases, but an appeals system was set 100% compensated with-profit annuitant category. up that had a route into a judicial process and eventually to the High Court. If some policyholders might become Many other policyholders are still sceptical of the involved in a judicial process, it would be useful to have Government’s intentions and EMAG, which is the body clarity about whether the same will happen. representing many of those policyholders, is voicing its discontent with those who, before the election, signed Will the Minister also confirm not only, as I think he up to their pledge to create “fair and transparent” said, that the administrative costs of operating the payment schemes, which they now attack as akin to compensation programme will be separate from the asking 1 million people—to quote the words of EMAG’s compensation fund, but that any appeals costs will also Paul Braithwaite—to be separate from the compensation fund? I am sure that the Committee will welcome any clarification of the “share a pack of Smarties”. Government’s intentions, and in the meantime we felt Obviously, EMAG is making its point in its own that the amendment was a reasonable device to ensure particular way, but clearly there is some doubt and that those answers are forthcoming. some cynicism about the approach that the Minister is taking. I am sure, having heard what he has had to say Bob Blackman: I shall speak to new clause 1, which I before, that he indeed wants a level of independence in tabled, but I made a long speech on the earlier group of the payments scheme as far as possible, but I do not amendments and I do not want to repeat all the points I understand why that commitment has not been included made then. in the legislation. That would seem to me to be the best We need to make the whole process clear, transparent way forward. and independent of Government so that the money that Amendment 4 seeks to tackle the issue of any appeals has been set aside to compensate the victims of this procedure that might be necessary for policyholders in scandal is seen to be distributed so that they receive the compensation scheme. We suggest that no later than their due compensation in a manner that is independent three months after the commencement of the Bill the of the Treasury. The dead hand of Treasury officials Treasury be required to spell out quite how that appeals should not mean that the scheme is designed in a procedure would operate for the policyholders who are particular way. I do not necessarily need to press the not content with the judgments made in the compensation new clause, but I seek assurances from the Minister that scheme that eventually ensues. Several hon. Members we have a full, independent, transparent way to compensate argued for an appeals procedure on Second Reading on the victims, who have been so badly treated over the 14 September—my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys past 10 years. Môn (Albert Owen) among them—and it was also raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for East 3.15 pm Ham (Stephen Timms). Mark Durkan: Obviously we are waiting to hear what In that debate, the Minister stated that he had raised the Government will say about their amendment, but the issue with his officials but that there were clear the other amendments—including the new clause proposed problems. He said he would pursue it, so the purpose of by the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman)—are the amendment is to find out whether he has had the in essence an attempt to ensure that there is a sense of opportunity to do so and what the appeals process will competent independence in how the scheme is administered look like. I certainly expect that there will be complexity, and payments made. In terms of making appeals available not just in the payment scheme but in any subsequent and ensuring that the design and administration of the individual appeals adjudication, and that could be quite scheme are independent of Government, the new clause difficult to imagine at this stage. However, it needs offers a reasonable construct of what a clearly independent clarification given the route that the Minister has chosen, scheme would be. 329 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 330

In the debate on the previous group of amendments, Ministers, know that only too well, so why is he making there were many references to pledges that many of us an excuse for the inaction of the previous Government signed and how far the Government’s measures will and their failure to respond to the needs of Equitable mean that we have discharged those pledges, but I do Life policyholders? not think that any of us signed pledges that said we would do the whole thing just according to Treasury Mark Durkan: If the right hon. Gentleman had been lights and nothing else. The amendments are an attempt here for the debates on earlier amendments, he would to ensure that it will not only be Treasury lights that will know that I made no such excuses then. Indeed, in all govern the terms of the scheme and its performance. previous debates, I have been very critical of the performance of previous Governments. We have both Mr Weir: Does the hon. Gentleman not feel, however, been the Finance Minister in Northern Ireland, as he that the problem remains that the whole thing will be says. When I held that position, I used the line, “I’m the governed by the ultimate cap? That is the difficulty that Minister of Finance; I don’t suffer from depression but faces all Equitable Life policyholders. I am a carrier.” That is the effect: Treasury Ministers are Mark Durkan: Yes, I do. There is no escaping the put in that sort of position. They become aware of constraints that the cap will create. In the last group of constraints and difficulties that they then have to put amendments, we considered the questions that arise before everyone else and impose on them as well. when the cap comes together with the cut-off. That My point is not that Ministers were right or wrong to conspires to create a pretty selective injustice for a listen to the advice but that we, as a Committee, must group of people who are then left with very marginal choose whether to go along with the Bill and say that compensation. the scheme will proceed only according to Treasury Even a very independent process, such as that proposed lights or whether to say instead that it should go according in the amendments, will be constrained by the cap. to wider lights and be informed by the sort of considerations However, people would trust a credible independent reflected in the various amendments that hon. Members process applying that cap with due consideration for all have tabled and by the many good observations made the concerns, rights and needs of policyholders more by Members on both sides of the Committee. Either we than they would trust the Treasury. In the last debate want to trust the Treasury and leave the scheme entirely some Government Members said confidently how in its hands, with its considerations and constraints impressed they had been with the Treasury since they alone, or we want to honour the spirit of what we have came into the House. That might well be—we are in the all pledged to those who have lost out with Equitable early stages of this Parliament and this Government Life and to act in the light of the sad experiences that and the first few pages of the exercise book are lovely, we have heard about. neat, impressive and perfect—but degeneration creeps I commend the amendments to the Committee. I in later on and even the Treasury will revert to its shall wait to hear what the Government say about their traditional roots and habits. amendment, but it seems to reinforce the Treasury’s whip hand over the whole scheme. Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I have confidence in the Treasury trying to sort this out—I am sure that Mr Hoban: I take the same view as the right hon. the hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) on the responsibility However, I am concerned about anything that pushes of Ministers. Civil servants provide advice but Ministers this matter into the long grass. We do not need any decide and act and we cannot ignore that responsibility. more delays caused by trying to set up other bodies. We have taken this matter very seriously and have That is why I would like to say, “Get on with it and get sought, over the past six months, to drive through a the Treasury doing it.” speedy resolution to the problem. I echo the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) Mark Durkan: I do not believe that the hon. Member on tackling this matter. for Harrow East, for example, is trying to sow or fertilise long grass. This is about getting something that On the amendments before us, the purpose of is credible, competent and reliable and the Committee amendment 3 is to make the design and operational should try to help in that regard. That is the spirit of mechanism of the scheme “independent of government”. these amendments. I understand the need for independence in the design of There has been much criticism of the underperformance, the payment scheme, which is why I established the to put it mildly, of the previous Government on this Independent Commission on Equitable Life Payments. issue over more than one Parliament. Let us remember The commission’s advice will necessarily form the basis that those Ministers were not deliberately ignoring the of the scheme’s design. It will advise on how best fairly plight of their own constituents who were coming to to allocate payments among policyholders, with the them or the problems highlighted by many of us from exception of with-profits annuitants, and it will consider constituencies across the United Kingdom. They were which groups, if any, should be prioritised. It is right constrained by the advice that they were getting from that that process should be independent, so the scheme the same Treasury that people are now so happy with. will be independently designed. The Treasury was advising that serious precedents and The Government have considered whether the scheme problems would be created. should also be operated independently of the Government, as amendment 3 proposes, and have concluded that that Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I understand would not be appropriate for three key reasons. First, it what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but Ministers are would delay the commencement of payments. Our ambition there to take decisions. They listen to advice but it is up is to start making payments in the middle of next year to them to make things happen. He and I, as former using our preferred delivery partner National Savings 331 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 332

[Mr Hoban] I was commenting on the scheme appeals mechanism, which will be published before the scheme begins making and Investment. I shall say more about that on amendment payments and will be made available for parliamentary 6. If amendment 3 were accepted, NS&I, which is an scrutiny. If a policyholder believes that the rules of the Executive agency of the Treasury, could not be used as scheme have been incorrectly applied to their data, they the delivery partner as it would not be operating will be able to raise a query with the delivery body, independently of the Treasury, which would therefore stating the nature of their concern. The query will be have to establish a new, independent body or identify an pursued by the delivery body. existing such body that could operate the scheme. It is If there is merit in the challenge and it is upheld, a also likely that legislation would be required to task the recalculation will take place. If the challenge is not independent body with the design and operation of the agreed by the delivery body, the policyholder will have scheme, which would delay significantly the making of the option of taking their case to the review panel. The payments to policyholders. review panel will consider the case in full and be able to Secondly, the Government have established an make a fresh decision based on the facts of the case. It independent commission to advise on the allocation of will be independent of the original decision-making payments. This function is independent of the Government process. If a complainant’s case is upheld, the review and is key in determining a fair allocation of payments. panel will ensure that a recalculation is carried out. If Making the operational delivery provider, whose job is the complainant remains unhappy with the review panel’s largely about sending out the payments and making decision, they will be able to challenge that decision in sure that cheques get to the people who are entitled to court by way of judicial review. receive them, independent of the Treasury would not add significant value to that task. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): My hon. Finally, it is important to ensure that value for money Friend referred to cases in which the rules of the scheme is considered when deciding on a delivery partner. The might not have been correctly applied, but such are the Treasury has satisfied itself that NS&I has the capacity complexities of Equitable Life policyholders—for example, and the capability to deliver the scheme, while at the a constituent of mine whose policies were additional same time providing value for money. The Government voluntary contributions in a pension scheme which has consider that by establishing the Independent Commission been wound up—that someone might wish to argue on Equitable Life Payments on 22 July, we achieved the that their particular type of case had not been envisaged aim that is at the heart of the amendment. in the way the rules were formulated, and that a specific I turn to amendment 4 and what policyholders should decision needed to be made in that case. Will the scheme do if they consider that they are not being treated fairly be wide enough to make that possible? under the scheme. The Government are committed to treating policyholders fairly. In line with that, there will Mr Hoban: My right hon. Friend makes an important certainly be a means by which policyholders can raise point. I would expect the payments commission to concerns about the incorrect application of scheme design a payments scheme that would be sufficiently rules to individual cases. We have given much thought comprehensive to ensure that all groups of policyholders to how best to deal with complaints and have made a were covered by it, so any appeal would be on the basis great deal of progress in putting together a process that only of any data used to calculate the losses, rather than is fair and thorough. Full details of this process will be an appeal in principle against the design of the scheme. included in the document that sets out the scheme I will bear in mind the point that my right hon. Friend design in full. makes and encourage the commission, when it takes representations from people, to think as widely as possible Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I about the different groups of policyholders that need to spoke about this last time we discussed the matter. be taken into account. Given that the message to savers from the previous Government was non-existent or at least negative, does my hon. Friend think the message that the present Chris Leslie: The Minister is being extremely helpful Government are sending to savers is adequate? Are we and at least setting out a sense of what the architecture saying clearly, “We understand that you have been of that appeals system will be. He said that it would be badly let down by Government and we want to put subject to parliamentary scrutiny. Can he say for the things right as much as we can, given the circumstances record that the relevant statutory instrument will be in which we find ourselves”? subject to the affirmative procedure?

Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an important point. There are two aspects to it. First, in respect of 3.30 pm Equitable Life, the speed with which we have acted demonstrates our commitment to a resolution of the Mr Hoban: There is no requirement in the Bill to lay problem. The second is a forward-looking and prospective the scheme as a statutory instrument, but I shall ensure issue, which is why we have brought forward proposals that when the scheme design is produced, it is laid to improve the regulation of retail financial services before the House and there is an opportunity to scrutinise it. through the establishment of the new Consumer Protection The hon. Gentleman asked a question about the cost and Markets Authority. That will be a boost to regulation of administration and the cost of the appeals mechanism, and give confidence to savers that the market will be and he was right to recollect that I said previously that better regulated. It is important, and we have introduced the cost of administration would be separate from the measures recently, to ensure that if anything goes wrong, compensation pot. That is still the case, and it goes there is a proper process in place to tackle that. without saying that the cost of the appeals mechanism 333 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 334 will also be separate from the compensation pot. We between policy, in terms of the scheme design, and want the money that is set aside for compensation to be operations, in terms of the administration but blurred used for compensation. edges can sometimes appear between the two. Will the independent commission hold the ring in any disputes Bob Blackman: I am grateful to the Minister for about the mechanism, timing and administration of the outlining the appeals process, which, in this complex scheme? Who will be the final arbiter of any disputes and complicated arrangement, will be important. Will that arise from the process? Presumably, it will be the he elucidate further on the effect of the time frame of independent commission. the appeals process? What would happen if, for example, an individual policyholder or set of policyholders, who Mr Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important felt that they had been wronged and not received the point, and it is important that we are able to operationalise, compensation that they were due, went through the as it were, the scheme design. That is why I have process and that led to a breach of the cap? If they were encouraged the payments commission to engage with suddenly compensated with a lot more money than had NS&I to ensure that the scheme that the commission already been allocated, how would that be dealt with? designs can be delivered. That is an important part of the process, and I expect the commission to do that Mr Hoban: In that situation, there would be two during the course of its work. I think that addresses the aspects: first, the design that the payment scheme had hon. Gentleman’s point. applied; and secondly, the data that were available to the policyholder. The scheme will be designed in such a Let me turn finally to new clause 1 and the status of way that it does not breach the cap, so it would be the independent commission. I have already spoken possible to appeal only if the data were incorrect. The about the importance of the work of the commission, data that will be used to calculate the compensation will and I am not sure that the new clause, which would give come from a database supplied by Equitable Life, and I it statutory footing, would add value to its work. hope that its data are of a high standard, so that those situations do not occur. Mark Durkan: Returning to amendment 6, can the From the details given today, the Government have Minister assure us that it is there only to provide proper been considering very carefully the design of the appeals statutory cover to the director of savings and NS&I in procedure, and we will publish details of the procedure, relation to the scheme, and not to extend Treasury along with other aspects of the scheme, ahead of the control or constraints in relation to it? time that amendment 4 proposes. So in light of that we believe that the amendment is not necessary. Mr Hoban: I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. Let me turn to amendment 6, which is in my name. We could not use NS&I if we did not include this power The delivery of the Equitable Life payments scheme is in the Bill. Its purpose is to enable NS&I to act as a an important matter, and since we took office we have delivery partner, not to give the Treasury some way of made huge strides towards finding a resolution to the reaching back into the payments scheme. I reassure Equitable Life issue. However, we are aware that, for him, and others, that the power is there merely to many policyholders, the issue will continue until they deliver the outcome of the scheme. finally receive the money. As such, it is important that The role of the payments commission will be key. It we find the right delivery partner to help us do that. will advise on the distribution of payments to those Having given the matter careful consideration and looked other than WPAs, and I will take its advice extremely at a range of options, our preferred option is to use seriously. The new clause would introduce a requirement NS&I, to deliver the scheme. for the commission to consult key bodies in the development Officials have held many meetings with NS&I to find of its advice, but let me tell my hon. Friend the Member out not only whether it is capable of carrying out that for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) that it would need no important task, but the processes by which delivery statutory encouragement to do so. The commission has could be carried out. There are many factors that make already met Equitable Life and EMAG, and it has NS&I an appropriate delivery partner for the scheme. published a discussion paper asking for more views on One of the most obvious and important is capability. As the guiding principles for determining fairness in allocating part of its everyday functions, NS&I makes millions of and prioritising the funding. I do not believe that an payments to customers every month. It has processes amendment to the Bill would make it any more consultative and infrastructure in place and experience of carrying and thorough in its task. My hon. Friend is aware that I out the functions that the scheme will require. have made the commitment to go along to the all-party The need for value for money in the delivery of the group with the chairman of the commission to engage scheme is also important. We are all aware that, in a with parliamentarians on this matter. That is a very climate where we have had to make difficult decisions clear sign of the way in which we want to engage, or the about where to make cuts, the Government must look commission wants to engage, with stakeholders to come for ways of making the cost of delivering the scheme up with the best design for the scheme. I encourage reasonable. Using NS&I will allow us to draw upon people to read and engage with the commission’s discussion existing Government relationships and contracts, and I paper, too. am satisfied that NS&I can provide a good delivery The new clause would also introduce a statutory duty mechanism by which we can start making payments in for the Government to lay the design of the scheme line with our stated ambition of the middle of next year. before Parliament in the form of a statutory instrument in order to allow full scrutiny. I entirely understand the Chris Leslie: I am grateful to the Minister for the thinking behind this, and transparency has been at the information about National Savings & Investment being heart of our approach to developing the payments the preferred vehicle. In theory, there is a separation scheme. However, as I have said, I will publish and lay 335 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 336

[Mr Hoban] Chris Leslie: The amendment is intended to draw out more information specifically about the timing of the before Parliament a document setting out the scheme compensation payment scheme that the Financial Secretary design in detail, which may then be debated as Parliament envisages. In particular, we wish to ensure that the chooses. Again, I do not think that a statutory requirement Treasury will lay before Parliament details of the timing will make my commitment to full transparency any and planned dates for payments no later than three stronger. The Government therefore resist the new clause. months after the commencement of the Act. Furthermore, including provision in the Bill as to the We know that this long saga has involved many status and operation of the independent commission raised hopes, which have often been dashed. Although would pose a very serious risk to the timetable of the there were very good reasons for the last Government’s commission. The commission is already in operation detailed consideration of complex issues, I accept in and has been since July, and it is due to report at the end hindsight that decisions could and should have been of January. Notwithstanding the speed with which the taken more quickly and handled better. There were House is dealing with the Bill, it will still take several sound reasons why Ministers took a different approach weeks for it to finish its passage through this House and to that of the Government today, but we are where we the other place. If the commission had to be reformed are, as the saying goes, and I wish to the ask the after the Bill received Royal Assent, to restart its Financial Secretary a few questions about how the deliberations so as to comply with the provisions of the matter will progress from here onwards. new clause, there would be a real risk of delay to its I am aware that table 3 in the spending review document, advice. This would, in turn, delay the making of payments on page 12, sets out the phasing of the total finance set to policyholders—something that I am sure none of us aside as being £520 million in 2011-12, £315 million in would want to happen. In the light of this, and given the 2012-13, £210 million in 2013-14 and finally £100 million comfort that I hope I have provided on the operation of in 2014-15. As the explanatory notes to the Bill state, the commission, I invite hon. Members to withdraw that comes to a total of £1.1 billion that has been set their amendments. aside for this spending review period. Clearly there is a discrepancy with the £1.5 billion figure that we have Chris Leslie: I am grateful to the Minister for setting been talking about, which presumably goes beyond the out the information about the preferred vehicle for the spending review period. I have a number of questions payment scheme. Although we would have preferred to for the Financial Secretary, and I hope that he will see some of the issues regarding the design of the expand upon the details. scheme independently set out and enshrined in the Bill for the avoidance of doubt, I accept his commitment in First, on what basis have those figures been arrived making these points on the record. Similarly, in respect at? Do they represent the expected phasing of payments, of the appeals mechanism, this debate has given us the or are administrative costs included, for example, distorting opportunity to shed a little light on to how he envisages the apparently higher first-year figure set out in the that arrangement playing out. spending review document? I presume that the administration costs have to be set out somewhere in I hope that the Minister’s commitment to allowing the budgetary figures. If so, will the Financial Secretary further parliamentary scrutiny will not involve merely clarify his intentions? I do not want policyholders to tabling a negative resolution on the Order Paper so that labour under the misapprehension that they will necessarily Members have to beg the indulgence of those on the receive the bulk of their compensation up front, as Treasury Bench to find time to debate it. Given the those figures might suggest. amount of interest in these matters across the House, the affirmative procedure would be preferable, as that At what stage will the timing and phasing of payments would allow us to consider them in detail. With that, I become clear? Does the Financial Secretary expect that beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. the independent commission will set out those details early on, and will there be any opportunity to enshrine Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. the timing of those arrangements in law, perhaps through regulations, even though they will be designed independently Chris Leslie: I beg to move amendment 5, page 1, line 7, at of Ministers? In other words, will the commission come end insert— back to Parliament and say, “This is how we are going proceed”? ‘(2D) The Treasury shall lay before Parliament details of the timings and planned dates for payments of compensation to There have been reports that three tranches of payments which this section applies, no later than three months after are expected over a four-year period. Can the Financial commencement of this Act.’. Secretary clarify whether that expectation is broadly reasonable for the policyholders involved? The Government The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means are clearly about to hand over many of the arrangements (): With this it will be convenient to to the independent commission and to National Savings discuss amendment 8, in page 1, line 7, at end insert— & Investment, but it is still important that we know the ‘(2A) After determining the total amount of the payments that broad parameters that they will use. That is the purpose the Treasury is to authorise under subsection (2) and the persons of the amendment—we are seeking a public commitment to whom those payments are to be made, the Treasury must and transparency about the timing of the payments. secure— (a) that each of those persons is paid the full amount due Bob Blackman: I rise to support amendment 8. I do to that person in a single payment, and not want to go over all the ground that we covered in (b) that the single payment is made as soon as debating the previous amendments, but the purpose of practicable.’. the amendment is precisely what we talked about earlier. 337 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 338

Hon. Members intervened to say, “Let’s get this done. for the commission and it will report at the end of Let’s get it over with and ensure that policyholders are January 2011. Between the end of January and the dates properly compensated as quickly as possible.” that payments commence, we will be laying the advice It is clear that trapped annuitants will receive their of the independent commission over the operational compensation in staged payments over the life of their technicalities of the scheme to ensure that the end-to-end pensions. However, we get into complex territory again process operates well. We will then publish a scheme when discussing the other policyholders and the difference design document that sets out the end-to-end process of between with-profits and other annuities. As I understand the scheme in the spring. We will also finalise the it—I hope that the Financial Secretary will clarify this— arrangements with the delivery agent. That will help to tranches will be paid out over the life of the comprehensive ensure that when the scheme goes live, we can get spending review period. The third tranche will only get payments to policyholders efficiently. paid in 2013, which still leaves some £500 million to be I hope that I have reassured hon. Members that this paid out in the next comprehensive spending review Government are committed to making payments to period. As we understand it, this will be a long-drawn policyholders as soon as it is practicable and that we are out affair, so perhaps we can have further clarification taking all possible steps to achieve that. As a result, on the issue. amendment 5 is unnecessary. I have addressed the points raised by the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris 3.45 pm Leslie) about the sequencing of payments. We are seeking We have set aside £1.5 billion to compensate the advice from the new payments commission on how that victims of this scandal and we have set up an independent sequencing will take place and how it will fit within the commission to design the scheme and decide how that envelope of public spending that is set out in the money should be dispensed. The purpose of the amendment comprehensive spending review. is to say that we should now get on with it and compensate Let me turn to amendment 8, standing in the name of those people while they are still alive. We should not the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras hang on to the money and drag these payments out over (Frank Dobson), to which my hon. Friend the Member an extended period. for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) spoke. The amendment We want to put in place a rapid approach. Once deals with the issue of how payments should be made. I again, I congratulate the Treasury team on its rapid recognise the fact that policyholders have waited far too approach to resolving the scandal. None the less, if we long for a resolution to the matter. That is why at the are to have long and extended periods of payment, spending review we set out how we envisage the scheme many policyholders who have been affected by this working. I want to set out that vision again. Those scandal will sadly have died before they can receive their policyholders who do not have a with-profits annuitants money. Therefore, I trust that we can implement this policy will receive their payments in one lump sum to clause and ensure that we demonstrate to all the give them the closure that they need quickly. As it policyholders who have been so badly affected by the happens, amendment 8, tabled by the right hon. Gentleman scandal that they will receive their due compensation and my hon. Friend, would mean that with-profits very quickly. annuitants would not receive their payments in the way that we envisage. One of the reasons why we have been Mr Hoban: Let me deal with amendments 5 and 8. able to increase the amount available to policyholders is We have stated that our ambition is to commence so that we can spread the amounts going to with-profits payments in the middle of next year. As the Committee annuitants over the remainder of their lives. If my hon. is aware, we have made great progress on this issue. Friend’s amendment were accepted, it would stop that Within six months of coming to office, we have published process and mean that their payments would come out Sir John’s report and the supporting material; we have of the £1 billion set aside at the time of the CSR. I provided the first bottom-up estimate of losses suffered therefore suggest that the amendment would not help by policyholders; we have set aside £1.5 billion for the policyholders to receive quite as much money as we payment schemes; we have announced that we will believe they should. cover the full losses of eligible with-profits annuitants; Owing to logistical constraints associated with such a and we have established the Independent Commission large and complex scheme and to affordability constraints, on Equitable Life Payments to advise us on the fair we cannot make all lump sum payments immediately. allocation of payments among policyholders. Such progress They will be paid out over the first three years of the shows how seriously we take this matter and how quickly spending review period. That is why I have asked the we want to find a resolution. Our ambition is to commence commission on payments to advise me on whether there payments in the middle of next year, and our track are any classes of policyholders whose payments should record of getting things done quickly on Equitable Life be prioritised, to ensure that those in most urgent need shows that we are capable of doing so. of redress are paid first. Let me set out the process that we are following to ensure that payments are made as quickly as possible. Chris Leslie: This may be a naive question, but box 2.7 In line with out commitment to independence, we have in the spending review says: set up the independent commission to advise us on how “The Government expects the total amount of funding for the we can fairly allocate the funds among policyholders, scheme to be in the region of £1.5 billion.” with the exception of the with-profits annuitants and That is the envelope that we have been debating, and their estates, and on any priority groups or classes of that figure matters quite a lot, especially for those other person who should be paid earlier. policyholders. However, the same box says that Such an approach will help to inform the sequencing “£1 billion will be allocated to the Payments Scheme in this of payments. To ensure that the payments can begin as Spending Review period, which will cover…the initial costs of the soon as practicable, we have set a challenging timetable first three years of WPA”— 339 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 340

[Chris Leslie] Nadhim Zahawi: I will test the Financial Secretary’s arithmetic a little further. Has he worked out what that with-profits annuitants— advantage is over and above the £1.5 billion? “regular payments, and all payments to other policyholders.” Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an interesting Can the Minister explain the difference between the point. It is difficult to calculate that because, as he will £1 billion and the £1.5 billion, and say how the timings recognise, the tax status of Equitable Life policyholders will be affected? Presumably the other £500 million will varies. Some pay no tax, some pay tax at the 20p rate, arrive after the spending review period, but I am a bit some pay tax at the 40p rate, and some may even pay tax confused on that point. at the 50p rate. The value will depend on their tax status, and we do not have sufficient access to taxpayers’ Mr Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important records to be able to match Equitable Life policyholders point, which gives me the opportunity to clarify the with their tax records, so we cannot calculate the benefit. make-up of the £1.5 billion. The figure includes the full However, he will appreciate that it could provide a cost of the losses to with-profits annuitants—approximately significant benefit to some policyholders, and I hope £620 million—which will be made through regular that they will recognise that when they receive their payments. However, taking into account the pressures payments. We have sought to be as generous as possible on the public purse, the Treasury could allocate only in the tax and benefits treatment for that purpose. £1 billion over the first three years of the spending review. That will cover two things: the first three years Mr Redwood: I thank the Minister for an important of payments to with-profits annuitants, and lump-sum improvement to the scheme, which I am sure is welcomed. payments to all other policyholders and to the estates of deceased with-profits annuitants. Mr Hoban: I thank my right hon. Friend. When designing the scheme, we considered seriously how to It is important to start to pay off with-profits annuitants’ ensure that policyholders would benefit as much as losses quickly, alongside the lump-sum payments to possible from the payments. If we had been less generous, other policyholders. About £225 million of the £1 billion we would have been accused of clawing back money is for with-profits annuitants and their estates, leaving through the back door, and that is an impression that approximately £775 million for lump-sum payments to we want to dispel. non-with-profits annuitants. The Towers Watson estimate of £620 million for with-profits annuity losses leaves Sir Alan Beith: I welcome that announcement, but approximately £395 million for the rest of the WPA there is a group of people who are affected in multiple losses from 2014-15 onwards. Those who are quicker at ways: those who have funds in Equitable Life that are mental arithmetic than me will have worked out that the not yet in payment and who have been given transfer total comes to about £1.4 billion. The balance is a values substantially below what they believe the fund to contingency, because the payments to with-profits be worth, even now. If they are waiting up to three annuitants are based on their longevity. We hope that years, and take the money out, accepting the transfer they live long and healthy lives, and that buffer is set penalty, will they invalidate their entitlement under the aside to cover this need. That is how the maths works scheme? out. Mr Hoban: That is an important point. I am sure that Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Could my a range of issues will emerge as we move through the hon. Friend provide further clarification on the tax scheme’s design to payment. People who have had Equitable status of those receiving such payments? Life policies throughout the period and bought them post-September 1992 will receive compensation even if Mr Hoban: My right hon. Friend pre-empts a point they have exited from Equitable Life’s current arrangements. that I was going to refer to in the clause stand part I hope that that provides clarification. debate. He gives me an opportunity to say now that the Jonathan Evans: Will my hon. Friend take the payments will be free of tax. opportunity, perhaps later, to issue a fuller statement on his very important announcement in response to my The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. There has been right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham a very expansive debate so far, so there will not be a (Mr Redwood)? I intended to raise the matter on Third clause stand part debate. If the Minister wants to say Reading. There is no doubt that many policyholders anything, I would encourage him to say it now. will be delighted to hear the news, and it should be made more widely available to all policyholders so that Mr Hoban: You are right, Ms Primarolo, we have had they are aware of it. an extensive debate, so I will ensure that I now have my notes to hand for the clause stand part debate. I should Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend is right. The old saying is clarify the treatment of the payments under the tax and that the best way of keeping a secret is to make a speech benefits system. They will not be treated as income for in the House of Commons. I am sure that those of my tax purposes, and will not be taken into account in the hon. Friends who are in contact with Equitable Life calculation of tax credits, which is a benefit for policyholders. policyholders will take the opportunity to write to In terms of benefits, they will be treated as capital them, and I hope that the Equitable Members Action rather than income, and given the beneficial nature of Group, which is the main lobbying organisation on the treatment of capital in the benefits system, that behalf of policyholders, will also take the opportunity helps policyholders. We have sought in the design of the to pass the information on to its members. It is important scheme, through measures such as the tax and benefits information for them, and we will continue to make treatment, to maximise the value so that policyholders policyholders aware of it as we communicate further will receive the full amount. details of the scheme. 341 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 342

Before that series of interventions, I was reflecting on short months, the coalition Government have made real amendment 8, and I want to say a little about why we progress towards implementing their pledge to make are treating the with-profits annuitants differently from “fair and transparent payments to Equitable Life policyholders…for others in regard to payments. We need to recognise that their relative loss as a result of regulatory failure.”—[Official the nature of the policies of that particular group of Report, 26 May 2010; Vol. 554, c. 1WS.] people is very different from that of other Equitable Since coming to power, we have published the first ever Life policyholders. Their losses relate not just to what estimates of losses suffered by policyholders, considered has happened in the past, but to what will happen in the representations on them, and endorsed a relative loss future. They will continue to receive a stream of income figure of £4.3 billion—in line with the parliamentary over a number of years from their with-profits annuity ombudsman’s findings. We have set aside £1.5 billion to policy. We are now able to match that stream of income make payments, which is more than four times the with their historic losses and their future losses. It amount that Sir John Chadwick’s methodology produced. makes sense for them to receive their payments in a way This strikes the right balance between fairness to that reflects the income stream that they have lost, policyholders and fairness to the taxpayer. which is why they will receive their losses in regular payments over their lifetime. We have announced that we will cover the full losses of those policyholders who have or have had with-profits In the light of that, I hope that the right hon. Member annuities. We have established an independent commission for Holborn and St Pancras will decide not to press to assess how best to allocate payments to policyholders. amendment 8 to a vote, because the approach that he While giving the commission wide discretion, we have suggests is not appropriate for with-profits annuitants. made it clear that we do not expect payments to We are determined to make swift progress on making policyholders to be means-tested and that we expect payments to other policyholders, however, and they will payments to be made to the estates of deceased get lump sum payments that will be free of tax. policyholders. Our goal is to make the first payments to policyholders towards the middle of next year. This is a 4pm huge achievement, of which we can be rightly proud. Chris Leslie: The Minister has put on record some The Bill is a vital part of this work. It gives the helpful information about the timing of the payment Treasury the authority to incur expenditure to make arrangements, and I do not think that it would add a payments to policyholders. Without this Bill, redress for great deal if we were to press the amendment to the those who have suffered so long would be impossible. vote. I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the That is why we have moved so quickly. To delay further amendment. action would be unfair to those who have already Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. waited over a decade for a resolution. The sooner this Amendment proposed: 7, page 1, line 7, at end insert— legislation is in place, the sooner we can bring their suffering to an end. I know that right hon. and hon. “In determining the amount of the payments that it is appropriate for the Treasury to authorise under subsection (2), the Treasury Members of all parties fully support us on that. must have regard to such matters relating to the adverse effects of We announced as part of the spending review that it that maladministration on those persons and the proper calculation was our intention to make these payments tax free. of their resulting losses as have been determined by the Parliamentary Today’s Bill gives the Treasury the power to make an Commissioner for Administration to be relevant to and appropriate order allowing these payments to be disregarded for for that calculation.”.—(Frank Dobson.) tax. The payments will also be disregarded for the Question put, That the amendment be made. purposes of tax credits. Question negatived. Finally, the Bill enables the Government to consider Amendment made: 6, page 1, line 20, at end insert— what effect, if any, these payments will have on people’s “( ) The functions of the Director of Savings include anything eligibility for certain means-tested, state-funded support. the Director is appointed by the Treasury to do in connection I outlined in the debate on the final group of amendments with payments to which this section applies.”.—(Mr Hoban.) how this treatment will apply to welfare benefits. We are Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 68), That still considering how the payments will affect support the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill. such as social care. Question agreed to. We have concluded that lump-sum payments made as Clause 1, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of this scheme will be disregarded as income for part of the Bill. the purposes of assessing eligibility for means-tested Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. benefits. Instead, they will be classed as capital. Capital limits do not immediately cut off eligibility for benefits; The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. they work on a sliding scale, gradually reducing support Bill, as amended, reported. for individuals with larger assets. It is unlikely that Bill, as amended in the Committee, considered. many recipients who would otherwise have been eligible Third Reading for means-tested benefits will receive payments that dramatically affect this eligibility. For with-profits annuitants, regular payments will be treated as income 4.3 pm in a similar way to the lost income stream that these Mr Hoban: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read payments represent. the Third time. Earlier today, hon. Members debated in detail a The Government want to see justice for Equitable Government amendment that gives National Savings & Life’s policyholders, and this is clearly reflected in the Investments the power to deliver payments. That being actions that we have taken since coming to office. In six a large and potentially complex task, it is essential that 343 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 344

[Mr Hoban] and skills to design a proper payments scheme for policyholders. However, they would welcome contributions the delivery partner has the experience and expertise to from everybody who has participated in the debate, not do the job properly and cost-effectively. When judged just in the House but across the country over the past against these criteria and the imperative for payments decade, to enable them to produce the best possible to begin as soon as possible, National Savings & Investments scheme design, which meets as far as possible the aspirations was the strongest candidate, which was the motivation of people who have had policies with Equitable Life. for including this amendment in the Bill. Since the Government took office in May, we have I am aware of the concerns that hon. Members have come a long way. We have achieved far more in recent voiced about the Bill’s brevity. It is, indeed, a two-clause months than was achieved in recent years. We have Bill and it does not include detail about the payments quantified relative loss suffered because of scheme that would allow Parliament to scrutinise and maladministration. We have identified the losses that debate the issue. I would like to point out that there is policyholders have suffered on a bottom-up basis, by no requirement for the Bill to do so; it is simply an groups of policies and by age. For the first time, a enabling Bill to give the Treasury the power to make proper understanding has been established of the losses these payments to policyholders—and nothing more. suffered. That is a tribute to the hard work conducted The scheme design does not require statutory footing by Towers Watson and others to develop that estimate. and, of course, before the scheme design is finalised, we As a consequence of the spending review, we have been first need to make progress on this Bill. If we had able to assess the quantum of losses, to decide the loss waited for the scheme design to be finalised before figure that we accept. We have accepted the ombudsman’s proceeding with the Bill, it would have taken far longer view that relative loss is the best guide. We set aside before we could start to make payments. What the £1.5 billion of funding to cover the cost of the payments Treasury has sought to do is to work on as many scheme. We have announced that the losses of post 1992 streams as possible in parallel, within the constraints of with-profits annuitants will be covered entirely by the our legal powers. Government. We have also established an independent Let me reassure all hon. Members that I am fully commission to advise on the allocation of funding to committed to transparency at every stage of this process. not-with-profits annuitants policyholders. I understand and sympathise with Members’ concerns, As a Government, we want to see a swift resolution and for this reason I will publish a document setting out to this matter. We want the many policyholders who the scheme design in detail and lay it before Parliament have waited in financial purgatory for so many years, for full scrutiny. Following the independent commission’s and who have campaigned so hard for justice, to receive publication of its final advice, I will make a statement the payments that are rightfully theirs. No one could setting out the Government’s response. disagree that policyholders have waited too long for I also know that Members are keen to discover whether justice. Although the debate has been relatively brief, it a robust appeals process will be in place, one that will is not just the tip of the iceberg—to which the hon. allow policyholders who believe their payment has been Member for Nottingham East referred—as anyone who wrongly calculated to challenge this judgment. I am has participated in the debate will recognise. Passing therefore pleased to confirm that we will be appointing this important Bill is essential to achieving justice, and I a review panel, independent of NS&I, with full powers commend it to the House. to consider any such challenges and to overturn any decision that it finds incorrect. As I said to the hon. 4.14 pm Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) in an earlier Chris Leslie: The short debate that we have had has debate, the costs of that appeal mechanism will not be covered a set of specific issues, largely arising from the borne by the compensation pot. We want to ensure that Government’s conclusions in the spending review about policyholders get the full value of the money that we set how to compensate those suffering injustice following aside for compensation payments. maladministration by insurance and financial regulators In the interests of transparency, I should like to set in the case of Equitable Life. I am glad that we have had out the next steps in the process of resolving this long the opportunity to talk about the independence of the and complex issue. As a starting point, I hope that payment scheme. We have been able to hold the today’s Bill will receive Royal Assent by the end of the Government’s feet to the fire on whether it will match year. That will allow the delivery partner to start the ombudsman’s model. I am glad that the Minister preparations early in the new year, and to be well placed said that he would welcome further comments from her to make the first payments by the middle of the year, as on the design of the compensation scheme. It will be is our ambition. It is important for the delivery partner interesting to see whether she endorses it as being the to start work early, in order to accelerate the timetable fair and transparent scheme that many Members have to make those payments. The independent commission pledged to deliver. is due to report to me in late January and, following We have also discussed the appeals procedure and the that, we will incorporate its recommendations in the timing of payments. In response to the second ombudsman’s design of the scheme, which will then be scrutinised by report, the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, my Parliament. right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract As I said earlier, I would encourage hon. Members on and Castleford (), offered an apology for both sides of the House, whether they are new to the the past failings of the regulators. That is an important issue or have run with it for many years, as so many of point, which is separate from the question of whether us have, to engage with the commission in its work. It is the regulators can be held fully or only partly responsible independent of the Treasury, and the three commissioners for the losses incurred by the maverick actions of Equitable are very experienced. I believe that they have the expertise Life’s management during the 1980s and early 1990s. 345 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 346

I am sorry that, at least during this debate, Ministers have clearly embarked on a different course, although have not also expressed regret, clearly and on the record, they have taken up some of Chadwick’s pragmatic for the part that their party played during the 1980s in suggestions about the automaticity of compensation. failing adequately to establish a regulatory system to We genuinely hope that that will work. prevent the vast bulk of the Equitable Life problems We are pleased that this short paving Bill is before the from arising in the first place. I know that it was a long House, because we feel strongly that the matter should time ago and that none of the current Ministers were in be resolved. The Committee stage gave us an opportunity any way responsible, but I think it would have been a to question the Government on several aspects of their helpful gesture to draw a line under the failings that had approach, and I am glad that we have had an opportunity occurred in the past. After all, Lord Penrose concluded to draw them out further today. in his inquiry report that Ministers in the late 1980s Let me end by simply raising a question mark over “did not regard the subject” the words of Ministers before May, when the general of updating life insurance regulation election took place, in comparison with their actions “as a high priority for legislation.” today. Many hundreds of thousands of Equitable Life policyholders—possibly as many as 1 million—were led He noted that to believe that in signing the EMAG pledge, Ministers “the Government’s objective was to deregulate, to reduce regulatory were supporting a particular outcome that may not now burdens on business, to avoid interference in private companies, arrive. Most Conservative Members signed that pledge. and to let market forces prevail.” They pledged to their constituents that Mr Hoban: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is “if I am elected to Parliament at the next general election, I will support and vote for proper compensation for victims of the new to this topic, but we have already clearly expressed Equitable Life scandal and I will support and vote to set up a our apologies. Unlike the last Government, we immediately swift, simple, transparent and fair payment scheme—independent accepted all the ombudsman’s findings of failure. The of government—as recommended by the Parliamentary hon. Gentleman’s party did not even have the courage Ombudsman.” to do that. As the payment decisions are made in the next few years and the cheques finally start to arrive, EMAG Chris Leslie: I am glad that the Minister has been able members and policyholders who are not in line to to reiterate points that he did not make in his Third receive 100% compensation for their full relative losses Reading speech. I do not necessarily want to reopen the will have to draw their own conclusions as to whether box entirely, but it is important for both parties to the Government have fulfilled their promises. So far the recognise that mistakes have been made, and that things signs are that many policyholders do not feel that those should and could have been done better by those on Members who signed the pledge are keeping their word. both sides. In particular, however, I think it is important They feel that the scheme will fall short of proper not to gain the impression that failings did not occur on compensation and a fair payment scheme. the watch of the Minister’s party. Lord Penrose found that Conservative Ministers Jonathan Evans: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? “argued against reform in the… 1990s”, and that the United Kingdom “led the resistance” to Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con) rose— Europe-wide attempts to update the third life directive. Those who argue that Labour alone fell short in respect Mrs Main rose— of reacting to the Equitable Life debacle should realise that the ideological approach pursued by the Conservatives Chris Leslie: I will give way first to the hon. Member was absolutely central to causing the mess in the first for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) as he has attended place. the entire debate. As Members know, the last Government would have Jonathan Evans: The hon. Gentleman seems to be chosen a different route to compensation. We were suggesting that £1.5 billion does not amount to proper anxious that a poorly designed compensation scheme compensation. I came to watch the earlier debate when might entail a person-by-person review aimed at the Minister was the right hon. Member for East Ham disentangling individual losses one by one, examining (Stephen Timms), and he was standing by the Chadwick more than 30 million investment decisions by 1.5 million figure, but the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris people over 20 years. That would have been a mammoth Leslie) now seems to be saying that four times more administrative task. Moreover, the ombudsman had than the position the Labour party were defending back implied that individuals would need to prove that they then is not proper compensation. had relied on the regulatory returns and had been misled as a result. The last Government did not believe Chris Leslie: The difference between the hon. Gentleman that such an approach could be feasible. and me is that I did not sign the EMAG pledge. I always It was for those reasons that Sir John Chadwick was felt, as did many of my colleagues, that there were real asked to explore a more realistic and reliable payment and practical difficulties in raising constituents’ hopes scheme methodology. He concluded that the Treasury in the way that the hon. Gentleman perhaps did. That is should deal with the issue by grouping cases into about a matter for him and his constituents. It is up to him to 20 broad categories of policyholders who were in similar convince them that the result of these deliberations has circumstances. The payment scheme would then deduce been to put in place full and fair compensation in the relative loss in each category in comparison with the accordance with the pledge. I am simply making the outcomes of a basket of other policies that had not point that this is a matter of honour for those hon. suffered from the same regulatory failings. The Government Members who signed the pledge. 347 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 348

Mrs Main: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that they have been treated reasonably, although I accept the hon. Gentleman’s assessment that the EMAG pressure Chris Leslie: I think the hon. Lady was one such group is still battling for more. That is its role as a Member. pressure group. Mrs Main: I rise to gently chide the hon. Gentleman. We have had discussions with EMAG representatives, Chris Leslie: A reasonable point from the hon. Lady. and I do not think they were under any illusions that All I am saying is that the pledge that some Members they were necessarily going to get back every single signed did not say explicitly, “As resources allow.” penny that was lost. I have talked to my local representatives, [Interruption.] No, it does not say that in the pledge. and I think they are realistic enough to realise that we The pledge simply says that they will have a fair and have done the best we possibly can. I am not happy with transparent payments scheme. I doubt very much that the situation for the pre-1992 annuities, but even so, the vast majority of those other policyholders who will what we are giving them is 100 times better than previously. not be getting the 100%—clearly it will be welcomed by They look to us to deliver that, but they are realistic those with-profits annuitants, who are receiving 100% of enough to know that, in these hard times we cannot give their relative losses—but may be receiving, I am told, them everything. I think for the hon. Gentleman to say, between 15 and 20% of their relative losses will feel that “I didn’t sign the pledge” is just copping out. hon. Members who raised their hopes are actually fulfilling them. Chris Leslie: I disagree about the pledge, and I did not sign it for particular reasons, but my point is simply Jonathan Evans: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman that the hon. Lady signed the pledge before the general is new to his role, but I would have hoped that he had election and it committed her to a number of things, read the ombudsman’s report before representing the one of which was somehow to fulfil the aspirations of Opposition at the Dispatch Box. He would have seen those policyholders who interpreted the pledge in a that the ombudsman says that the compensation figure particular way. I, too, have met EMAG representatives must take account of the effect on the public purse. and they are not as happy and understanding as the hon. Lady suggests. Chris Leslie: I completely accept that that is what it Mrs Main: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? says in the detail of the ombudsman’s report, but it does not say that in the pledge that the hon. Gentleman Chris Leslie: Well, if the hon. Lady understands signed. In an electoral context, he raised the hopes of something different, I will give way to her again. many of his constituents. He may be able to face them and say, “Absolutely, I am fulfilling what I promised.” If Mrs Main: Did those EMAG representatives give the he feels that and they are happy with it, they will re-elect hon. Gentleman some reason to suspect that they were him, and everybody will be happy and ride off into the happier with his stance of delivering a much lesser sunset, but I have a feeling that some policyholders will amount? continue to be discontented with the Government’s position. It certainly did not say, either in the manifestos Chris Leslie: The difference is that I did not raise or in the pledge that he signed, perhaps scribbled in a people’s hopes for electoral purposes—because I wanted little addendum, “Oh, by the way, we are going to give to harvest their support—only to dash them after the you only a fraction of the £4.5 billion to £6 billion that general election. We are very used to Conservative you understand as the relative losses.” That is simply Members making pledges on a whole series of things—not not there. I am not claiming, because I did not sign that least student finance, which is quite pertinent right pledge, to have raised those hopes, but Members on the now—and then breaking their promises. I am not saying Government Benches did. that Members are necessarily in breach of their pledge. All I am saying is that it is for them to honour it, in Sir Alan Beith: Is it the hon. Gentleman’s position accordance with their consciences and what their that he did not promise anything, he was not going to constituents will say to them as to whether the compensation give anything, Chadwick was the maximum and he outcome amounts to a fair payment scheme and proper might as well vote against the Bill? compensation. Several hon. Members rose— Chris Leslie: Liberal Democrats need to learn that people should not make promises they cannot keep. Chris Leslie: Having clearly touched a nerve, it will be There is a suggestion that Liberal Democrats in particular interesting to hear from other Members as well. have been growing used to making promises that they cannot keep, so the right hon. Gentleman should pause Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): There is a key for a moment because his political arguments are point for the victims of this scandal in my constituency haemorrhaging on a number of fronts. That is because of Stourbridge. Most of those whom I have met understand some Members raised a series of aspirations before the that the commitments that were given always had the election, making suggestions and promises, and there proviso of the state of the public finances. That is a very are some who will feel that he is now falling short of relevant point. that. That is the only point that I seek to make. I am not I wish so much that we could have offered people claiming perfection for my behaviour, nor am I claiming more, but given the difference between Chadwick’s in any way that I could fulfil all the hopes of the recommendations, which were the baseline, and the policyholders, but my point is that Members on the £1.5 billion, as well as the state of the public finances, Government Benches did, and they should be hoist on many people who have suffered in this scandal will feel their own petard for signing that EMAG pledge. 349 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 350

Charlie Elphicke rose— say that Penrose spent some two and half years on his inquiry and the ombudsman spent nearly four years on Chris Leslie: I give way to my good friend from hers. This was not simply a Government issue. There Dover. were very complex issues in which a set of decisions had to be resolved. There are perfectly good and sound Charlie Elphicke: I thank the hon. Gentleman for reasons for some of the time that it took to come to giving way. I know him to be a generous Member of the conclusions on these questions. Things could certainly House. With his customary generosity, will he acknowledge have been handled better; I have already said that this that the amount is nevertheless three times that which evening. the previous Government said they would have given as compensation? Mr Marcus Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman explain Chris Leslie: We will not know that, because Chadwick’s the inactivity on the matter while his party was in report was published after the general election. We had government, particularly during the demise of the Icelandic a series of steps that would have then been taken, but banking industry, when his Government bailed out many history went in a different direction because the spending investors who were affected by it at the drop of a hat? review and the Budget were undertaken by a different party, not by our party in government. I am not saying Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. that there are magic solutions to this issue. These are Before the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris complex matters and there are technical reasons for Leslie) answers, may I remind the House that this is both the methodologies that are being used in the Third Reading and that it is timed, which means that it compensation and the timings and the discussions around will conclude at three minutes past 5? Members who them. It is important to bear in mind the wider needs of have sat through the debate this afternoon and who the public purse. We have consistently said that and now wish to speak on Third Reading might not get the the Government have come round to that point of view. opportunity to do so. I shall call Mr Leslie back to the I understand why they did. Dispatch Box to respond to the intervention, but perhaps everybody in the Chamber could bear my point in Mr Hoban: The previous Government took six months mind. to dither over what they would do about the ombudsman’s report, whereas we accepted her recommendations straight Chris Leslie: Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is away—there had been maladministration, there should certainly incumbent on us all to be brief as far as we be compensation for relative loss, and affordability was can. I have set out the position as I see it. I know that a key part of her recommendations. We accepted that Government Members will disagree, but I do not wish quickly, whereas his right hon. and hon. Friends sat on to impugn their intentions. I was simply seeking to their hands. point out that they are held to a pledge that not all Members are held to and that they will be judged Chris Leslie: I disagree with that. The hon. Gentleman on that. certainly did not say before the general election that this We are not minded to oppose the legislation this would be £1.5 billion—[Interruption.] Oh, did he? Where evening. This is a necessary paving Bill, but we accept did he say before the general election that this would be that the devil will be in the detail and we await the £1.5 billion? I shall give way to him if he can give a further scrutiny of the measures that will come subsequently. reference for that. Answer came there none—proof in point that after the general election a different set of expectations was set out by the Government than those 4.33 pm that might have been an interpretation of the Minister’s Nadhim Zahawi: The mere fact that it is 10 November words before the election. 2010 and I am standing here delivering a speech on Third Reading is something of which I am incredibly Mrs Main: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? proud. This is a sobering Bill, which is long overdue. I thought in Committee that I heard the shadow Minister Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): Will the apologise, but, sadly, I know from listening to his remarks hon. Gentleman give way? that he obviously has no remorse. Behind him are the hon. Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for Leeds Chris Leslie: I have given way to the hon. Member for North East (Mr Hamilton), who have been passionate St Albans (Mrs Main) several times, so I shall give way advocates for the victims of Equitable Life and incredible to the hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Conor champions for their cause, and they have had to listen Burns). to their Front-Bench spokesman speak with forked Conor Burns: Will the shadow Minister at least concede tongue. He says, on the one hand, that Labour wants to that one of the greatest groups of victims—some were champion the victims of Equitable Life, many of whom in my constituency—were those who died while waiting sadly have not survived to see this day, but on the other for his Government to make any progress? This Government that it did not promise anything. Labour let the victims should at least be congratulated for getting on and down in the previous Parliament and tried to get away doing something, because in this context something is with delivering what Chadwick recommended. definitely better than the nothing that was offered by The Front-Bench spokesman for the coalition the Opposition. Government is to be commended, because we are debating a figure that is four times the amount that Chadwick Chris Leslie: I am not going to claim that everything recommended. I remind the House of the economic in the garden was rosy in the period that elapsed between landscape that we have inherited. We are borrowing the findings of the various commissions. Suffice it to £500 million a day; every time we go to bed and wake up 351 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 352

[Nadhim Zahawi] fight its corner, as it must, until it sees justice for all policyholders and annuitants who took out policies in the morning, we have been saddled with another with the discredited Equitable Life. £500 million of debt by the previous Government. Just I and my co-chair, the hon. Member for Harrow East paying the interest on that debt costs £120 million a (Bob Blackman), together with the secretary of the day—just to stand still. Against that background, and all-party group, have written to Ann Abraham, the within six months of this Parliament, we have been able ombudsman, asking her a number of questions. We to deliver the Third Reading of this Bill for victims of hope that in due course we will receive a response, the Equitable Life tragedy. which we would want to share with the House or at least I want to highlight some of the points that my hon. with the rest of the all-party group. On that subject, I Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), hope the Minister will be able to accept my previous chairman of the all-party group on justice for Equitable invitation to attend one of our meetings at a time Life policyholders, has made. He has made some forceful convenient to him, so that we can discuss the details of points, as have my hon. Friends the Members for Nuneaton the scheme, understand more clearly how it will work (Mr Jones) and for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans). It and perhaps add some thoughts of our own on how to is important to remember what we heard from the make it work more effectively. Minister about the additional money that will come as a Finally, I hope that in passing the Bill today and result of the tax treatment of the payments. He would making it become law, and in paving the way for the be right to say that he had already shared this information compensation scheme, we as parliamentarians all appreciate with us but that it was hidden in the detail. That the lessons that have been learned from the poor or important point needs further airing. non-existent regulation of companies such as Equitable I repeat a recommendation that I made in Committee, Life so that future annuitants and policyholders never although I know it would be complex: it would be have to suffer in this way again. incredibly helpful for us all if the additional benefit for different tax bands provided by that tax treatment could be calculated. As my hon. Friend the Member for 4.41 pm Harrow East rightly reminded us, many hon. Members signed the pledge on Equitable Life before the election. Bob Blackman: I am privileged to follow my co-chair I am proud that I signed it and many of my colleagues of the all-party group that is seeking justice for the and I believe that we have absolutely delivered on it. policyholders who were so wrongfully treated by the There is a lot of detail to get through and we will all previous Government. We can see where interest in work very hard to ensure that we deliver for the victims supporting the policyholders lies. It is on the coalition of Equitable Life. I hope that the shadow Minister will Government Benches. Sadly, with the exception of those reflect on his remarks and feel that he could take some hon. Members who are present, there is a total lack of of them back. I hope also that he will be much more interest among Opposition Members in listening to or considered next time he speaks on this topic. participating in the debate. That is typical of what has gone on for the past 10 years. It is not fair to compare a potential failure to regulate with the fact of conniving 4.38 pm with the regulator and the company to prevent people Mr Fabian Hamilton: Given the shortage of time I from receiving compensation. That is precisely what the shall be brief. The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon previous Government did. (Nadhim Zahawi) reminds us of the daily interest payments I congratulate the Treasury team on taking swift, on the current national debt and I could respond that if firm and transparent action to ensure that we can pay we delayed payments by two days, we might have enough, swiftly those who have been wronged. That is not being by his calculations, to pay the pre-1992 annuitants, but I done as quickly as I would like, but we have to go shall not be frivolous. through the mechanisms of government and legislation. In Committee, I might have been a little churlish in We must make sure that the people who have been so my introductory remarks on my amendment, because I badly wronged are compensated properly, and that that really do want to congratulate the Government on what process is fair and is seen to be independent of Government. they have done. They have not gone far enough, but The debate that we had this afternoon in Committee they have made progress and I do not want to appear clarified a number of issues. I trust that the people who reluctant in congratulating them. Many hon. Members are watching from home, thinking about how much thought I was being reluctant, but my remarks were money they will receive and when they will receive it, slightly tongue in cheek. It is good that the Government will be more satisfied that the Government and the have introduced a scheme quickly, that payments will be Treasury team have taken on board the lobbying and made from next year and that the quantum is now the actions undertaken by Members, primarily on the roughly £1.5 billion instead of £0.5 billion—about three Government Benches, to make sure that the scheme is times more than Chadwick suggested. That is progress, put in place as swiftly as possible and pays the maximum and many Equitable policyholders will be very pleased. possible. I hope the Minister will accept that there is still some We should remember that the Bill will enable the injustice, not least for those pre-1992 annuitants, for Treasury to pay the money out as swiftly as possible. It whom 76 right hon. and hon. Members voted for my does not deal with the sums that are due to be paid out, amendment. As the Minister knows, I do not accept his although the Government accept completely the argument on that. I hope he will understand that injustice ombudsman’s view that the compensation would be still exists, that we will have to deal with it in some way £4.6 billion if the public purse had permitted that. That or another if we can, and that EMAG will continue to is massively different from what Chadwick recommended. 353 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 354

Nadhim Zahawi: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the Bill has in many ways been a frustrating experience. the previous Government had acted, and acted sooner, It is a paving Bill, as others have said, and the big more compensation would have been payable to the victims? elephant in the room is the cap and its effect on the overall amount of money available. Bob Blackman: If the Labour Government had acted It would be churlish not to acknowledge that the when they should have done, £1.5 billion would have Government have moved swiftly, and that is welcome. represented 100% compensation for everyone that had After 10 years spent arguing about the matter, we are been so badly wronged. However, the dragging of feet finally getting somewhere with it, but to some extent the over the past 10 years means that we are in the parlous Bill is a missed opportunity, because of the cap and the state in which people who should be due their compensation inability to do anything about the Treasury’s decision to are dying every day, and every day that we delay means introduce one. The effect will be dramatic. Nobody is that, sadly, more people will not receive their compensation. arguing that, in the current situation, everybody should receive all the money to which they might be entitled. James Morris: Many Members have talked about the Even EMAG accepts that there will be, as the group put moral imperative behind sorting out the situation, but it, a “haircut”, but some people will lose 80% of the does my hon. Friend agree that moral intervention compensation that they should have received, and that requires practical Government action, which is what we is not fair. are seeing today? There are other inequities involved. I was frankly Bob Blackman: Indeed. That is the clear duty of the baffled by the Minister’s mental contortions over the coalition Government, and that is why I wholeheartedly exclusion of pre-1992 with-profits annuitants. As I praise the Treasury team for demonstrating such action. understand his remarks, we are now in the position where maladministration is okay as long as one does There has been no greater issue than the tax treatment not know about it and where it becomes an issue only of the compensation that is due, and I congratulate when one does know about it. That seems utterly perverse. once again the Treasury on that measure, because it will By resorting to these measures, the Government have add to the compensation. Many people sitting at home undermined what could have been a very good end to will have been calculating their compensation less the this long-running matter. amount of tax that they regularly pay. Now they know that they will receive a far bigger tax-free income, and The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) that is something else of which we can be proud. is right—had the previous Labour Government grasped the nettle at an early stage, this issue could have been I would have much preferred more money to be dealt with much more cheaply. A lot of the fault over provided. Would not we all? But would not we all rather the cost lies with the previous Government’s unwillingness be in a position whereby the Treasury was not almost to do anything about it. Many of us have spent years in bankrupt and we had not been left with a massive this House arguing that they should have done so; I deficit? The all-party group will continue to ensure that, have not changed my position over that period. in this process, the Treasury will be able to communicate with all parliamentarians, and EMAG will be able to I think that there should be compensation, and I lobby to ensure that, when individuals begin to receive welcome what has been done. It is not sufficient, however, their payments, which will be the acid test, they feel and many policyholders will still feel very aggrieved, satisfied that the wrong that has been done to them has and rightly so. It could have been dealt with better had been compensated. That is something of which we it been done differently, perhaps with a larger cap or would all be proud. We can take great pride in the fact payments over a longer period. I can give half a thanks that the process is happening quickly, with purpose and for the Bill, but I think that the Government will face transparency, and that the pledge that we all signed is problems in future because of their failure fully to deal being honoured. Some people may say, “It is not being with the issue. honoured in full,” but it is, and clearly the economic circumstances of the day dictate what we can do. 4.51 pm As I said in an earlier intervention, we should revisit the position in five years’ time when the economy will Sir Alan Beith: I must declare an interest in that I have recovered and we will be in a much stronger have a very small Equitable Life policy—so small that I position because of the coalition Government’s decisions. do not think I will qualify for any repayment. My There may be a case then for reconsidering whether the concern is for the large number of my constituents people who took out policies but will not retire for five, whose entire retirement is dependent on Equitable Life 10, 15, even 25 years should receive a top-up. That is a policies. The list of the people who write to me includes reasonable proposal, and it is sensible for the coalition many of those who have contributed most to the community Government to consider it. over the years: that is a striking feature of the names that I see in the correspondence. Many of them will still I commend the Bill to the House. I support it 101%, be angry at how little they are going to get for all the and the Treasury team are to be congratulated not only savings they put by. on what they have done, but on the clear answers that they have given to the points that have been made as we The first thing to remember is that the primary have considered the Bill in detail. responsibility for this situation rests with the utterly irresponsible management of Equitable Life. In many ways, that was a disgrace to the mutual movement. It 4.48 pm underlines a weakness in the mutual movement, of Mr Weir: No one is going to oppose the Bill’s Third which I am very supportive in general, which is that Reading, for the simple reason that, if it fell, no one executives who want to advance their own careers favour would receive any money. None the less, dealing with the acquiring of new members at the expense of the 355 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 356

[Sir Alan Beith] regulation rather than losing out. In those cases, we should better provide for a scheme that will deal with interests of existing members. It happened at Equitable everyone on a case-by-case basis, rather than risk class Life, it happened at Northern Rock, and it happens in exclusion by assumption, which is what the cut-off building societies; it is something that the mutual movement provides for. I ask the Government to consider that has to watch very carefully. further as they take the scheme forward. The regulatory failure that occurred is the basis of I appreciate the Financial Secretary’s indications that the Bill, which I hope we shall give a Third Reading. added consideration has been given to tax treatment That regulatory failure has not led to action within and tax credits, and to the social care implications anything like the time scale that it should have done. A complications that could arise. I give the Government decade has gone by: people have got older and people credit for that sensitivity and responsiveness. have died while action should have been taken. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East I very much welcome the action that the Government (Chris Leslie) rightly warned the Liberal Democrats to have taken, very quickly, within a short time of their be careful not to make promises that they cannot keep. coming into office. I welcome the further announcements As a friend of the Labour party, but someone who was that the Minister has made in saying that there will be frustrated sitting on the Benches with Labour Members no tax liability and no effect on tax credits, and that during the last Parliament, may I say that I hope special considerable will be given to the social care Labour’s Front Benchers also learn to be careful about situation, bearing in mind that quite a lot of Equitable making arguments that they cannot sustain? He has Life policyholders are now in social care, either at home unfortunately been left in a position of trying to criticise or in residential care, and their cases need to be considered the Bill, but he could not even afford to divide the very carefully. I am grateful to the ombudsman for the Committee on straightforward, pure amendments. I feel work that she has put into this matter, and for her sorry for him that the last Government’s record put him persistence in doing so, and to EMAG, which has done in that position, and that he was left to make arguments such a tremendous job. that ended up, with all due respect, veering towards This is not full redress even for all the regulatory cynicism while the rest of us were trying to keep our failure that occurred, and I would not expect policyholders arguments within the realms of legitimate criticism. to be satisfied that they have got all that they are However, I accept fully that he is not responsible for morally entitled to. However, the fact that the Government that position. have moved quickly to ensure that payments will be It is important to remember that this is not just a made makes me feel entirely justified in going into the matter of what one Government or another did. The Lobby in support of the Bill. I am rather depressed that debates have shown that many Members of all parties the response of Labour Front Benchers has been to say have met constituents and carried their concerns. People to the Government, “You gave people the impression have suffered compound distress, and that is what cannot that they might get more, and even though you’re giving be quantified. Someone might quantify what amount of three times more than Labour would even have money should be due to people and how much we can contemplated, we, the Labour party, did not promise afford to give them, but we cannot calculate the compound anything at all.” We had to act, and I am grateful for the distress caused to people not just by their loss but by the fact that Ministers are doing so. long indifference and inertia. I acknowledged earlier the work in the previous 4.53 pm Parliament done by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North East (Mr Hamilton), and we all acknowledge Mark Durkan: This is a Third Reading debate, and I the work in this Parliament of the hon. Member for do not believe that the House should, or will, divide on Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who has served notice the Bill at this stage. that he will continue it. It is also appropriate to acknowledge As we have rehearsed in debates not only today but the huge role played in the previous Parliament by the on other occasions, this is a can that was kicked in front hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel of the Government for a very long time, to the frustration Kawczynski). Perhaps it is right that a Member from and disgust of very many people. I am glad that although one of the smaller parties says so; as he is currently a not everyone who has lost out will be doing handstands, Parliamentary Private Secretary, he may not be in a we no longer have the degree of hand-wringing from position to participate in the active, vocal way that he so Government that we had for too many years. often did. In the earlier debates, I, like others, had some questions Many of us have criticised Sir John Chadwick today and criticisms. Those criticisms were because of the and at other times. I remember the hon. Member for inadequacies and arbitrary limits in the provisions that Shrewsbury and Atcham reminding me of a line that I have been put in place. Some of us have genuine concerns used to hear about Fanny Craddock. Apparently she that, notwithstanding how much better the provisions used to offer some chicken recipe, and the first line of are than those the previous Government were going to the recipe was, “First, catch your chicken.” The hon. make, we as a Parliament should be careful about Gentleman and the all-party Equitable Life group had creating a situation in which we have a cap one on hand that difficulty with Sir John Chadwick, in trying to get and a cut-off on the other, which together will conspire him in and ensure that he and the Government properly to create a selective injustice against some people. engaged with them. Although many people will see When the Financial Secretary responded to debates shortcomings in the provisions, the fact is they represent on amendments, he made it clear that assessments of huge and welcome progress. Some redress will now be pre-1992 annuitants could be made to allow cases to be given to people, and the quicker that that can happen identified in which people had benefited from the inadequate the better. 357 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill10 NOVEMBER 2010 Equitable Life (Payments) Bill 358

None the less, we need to iron out any inconsistencies. urge both him and his Treasury officials to learn from Some of us are worried about something the Minister previous compensation schemes to ensure that this one said earlier and the sort of precedence that it might has flawless implementation. That is what the policyholders create. He said that because people did not know about deserve after years of waiting. We cannot let them down the maladministration, they can be deemed not to have at the point of implementation and operation. suffered the same loss as those who did know. That is Although it is essential to have clear information not an argument that I would ever want to become a available through e-mails and websites, we must not rule of thumb for any such scheme again. forget the age profile of the people whom we seek to help. They are, typically, older—much older—and will 5pm need written communication and properly manned contact David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Like many others centres to ensure that they get the customer service that hon. Members, I have had a huge amount of they need. correspondence on this issue. I have also met many of the policyholders and heard their sad tales and the way Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Does my hon. in which this drawn-out saga has affected their lives. I Friend not agree that it is a real scandal that no settlement congratulate the Equitable Members Action Group on was made during the long years of the previous Government its hard-fought campaign and commend the great work while many thousands of innocent victims, including that has been going on in the all-party parliamentary my mother, died, and that that should remain on the group. That has given many of us in this House, particularly previous Government’s conscience for ever? new Members, an awareness of the situation. None the less, it has been a drawn-out saga, and I am delighted David Rutley: I agree. It is a tragedy that this has that the Minister has taken very speedy action to address taken this long. Today’s debate has been reasonable, but the outstanding issues. He has made this Bill a priority I felt let down by the uncharacteristic tone that was and put forward £1.5 billion to assist with compensation struck by the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris at a very difficult time for the economy. Those are Leslie). genuinely positive developments. As my hon. Friends the Members for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) and for 5.2 pm Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) have said, we have One hour having elapsed since the commencement of also had clarity on the tax treatment, which is welcomed proceedings on consideration, the debate was interrupted by all of us. (Programme Order, 14 September). I congratulate the Minister on his quick choice of The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already National Savings & Investment to lead forward the proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), speedy implementation. At the time of his ministerial That the Bill be now read the Third time. statement, I remember his assuring the House that there would be a clear communication plan to help him Question agreed to. inform policyholders on developments. I continue to Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. 359 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 360 Governance European Union Economic Governance give Europe access to information for budgetary surveillance that is not similarly shared with organisations such as Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I must the IMF, or that is not publicly available on the internet? inform the House that Mr Speaker has not selected any Again, the answer is no. Will powers over our Budget be of the amendments. transferred from Westminster to Brussels? Again, the answerisno. 5.3 pm Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Does my hon. Friend The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark understand that many people have lost confidence in Hoban): I beg to move, assurances given whenever a new European treaty is That this House takes note of European Union Documents (a) discussed that there will be no loss of sovereignty? Ever 9433/10, Commission Communication on reinforcing economic policy co-ordination, (b) 11807/10, Commission Communication since we went into the Common Market, the British on enhancing economic policy co-ordination for stability, growth public have been told at every stage along the way, and jobs – tools for stronger EU economic governance, (c) “Actually, we’re not giving up any sovereignty. This new 14496/10, Proposal for a Council Regulation (EU) amending treaty doesn’t give anything away,” but people have Regulation (EC) No. 1467/97 on speeding up and clarifying the found time and again that these treaties have done just implementation of the excessive deficit procedure, (d) 14497/10, that. Does my hon. Friend understand people’s concerns Proposal for a Council Directive on requirements for budgetary that although the powers in question do not apply to frameworks of the Member States, (e) 14498/10, Proposal for a the UK at the moment, they may well do so in future, as Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on the effective enforcement of budgetary surveillance in the euro the European Union is clearly looking at extending area, (f) 14512/10, Proposal for a Regulation of the European sanctions to non-eurozone countries as well? Parliament and of the Council on enforcement measures to correct excessive macroeconomic imbalances in the euro area, (g) Mr Hoban: Nothing in the documents before us 14515/10, Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament today does what my hon. Friend suggests. People should and of the Council on the prevention and correction of listen and read the documents to which we have subscribed, macroeconomic imbalances, and (h) 14520/10, Proposal for a and understand how firm and robust the Government Regulation of the15 European Parliament and of the Council amending Regulation (EC) No. 1466/97 on the strengthening of have been in defending our economic sovereignty. the surveillance of budgetary positions and the surveillance and co-ordination of economic policies; notes the Report from the Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): But Task Force on Economic Governance in the European Union; does Mr Van Rompuy’s report not suggest that there notes with approval that budgetary and fiscal information will should be a binding minimum set of requirements for continue to be presented to Parliament before being given to national fiscal frameworks that would apply to all member EU20 institutions; and approves the Government’s position, as states? endorsed by the Task Force that any sanctions proposed should not apply to the United Kingdom in consideration of Protocol 15 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. Mr Hoban: I think my hon. Friend is reading an I welcome the opportunity to set out the Government’s earlier draft of the report, because we amended that position on the Commission documents to be debated language at the latest ECOFIN. I will come to this point this evening and our broader position on the co-ordination in a minute, but we believe that fiscal frameworks of economic policy in the EU. As right hon. and hon. should be political agreements and should not be driven Friends will be aware, the European Council last month by directives or regulations. agreed the report of the EU Economic Governance Task Force chaired by Herman Van Rompuy, and we Mr John Redwood (Wokingham)(Con): Will the Minister support its work and conclusions, none of which encroaches please confirm that the directive on budgetary frameworks on Parliament’s economic sovereignty. I want to be for all member states will apply to the United Kingdom, clear about that so that there can be no confusion about that the second regulation on budgetary surveillance for our position. all member states applies to the United Kingdom, and that the regulation for enforcement for all member Let me deal first with surveillance. Macro-economic states also applies to the United Kingdom? There are surveillance examines the budget plans of member states, twin proposals in each case, some of which apply only and has been around for more than a decade. There is to euro members and some of which affect all member nothing new in that, and a number of international states. Surely the Minister must confirm that that is a bodies do the same, such as the OECD and the International massive extension of European economic government, Monetary Fund. Does the fact that the EU is doing so and the UK has to comply with a lot of it. mean that we will be subject to sanctions? No, it does not, because under protocol 15 of the existing treaty, Mr Hoban: There is nothing new in the macro-economic sanctions do not apply to us. surveillance processes outlined in the document and, as Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Is my hon. Friend I have said, we are exempt from the sanctions regime aware that the same Mr Van Rompuy has today issued a that the Commission and others have proposed, which vicious attack on Eurosceptics throughout Europe, saying applies only to eurozone countries. Let me now make that what they argued amounts to a national lie? some progress. We need to recognise that there are lessons to be Mr Hoban: I have not seen Mr Van Rompuy’s comments. learned from the economic crisis, but one lesson that As hon. Members will recognise, I have been rather tied stands out that is relevant to the debate this evening and up in the Chamber for most of this afternoon. to the documents is that in an open, global economy, no Let me continue to make the Government’s position economy exists in isolation. The failures of economic clear. Will we have to present our Budget to Europe policy in one country can be exported to other nations, before we present it to the House? No. Will we have to and the imbalances in one economy can have an impact 361 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 362 Governance Governance on others. Imbalances such as excessive domestic demand Mr Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important and growth can lead to asset bubbles, an over-reliance point, and I am about to come to that, so his intervention on exports or divergence in competition across countries. is timely. Given the degree of integration of the European It is in all our interests to improve co-ordination and economy, it is in our national interest to support work co-operation in policy making, to tackle those imbalances that looks at the causes of instability and to have in and increase the resilience and strength of the global place action to help to tackle them. Over the summer, economy. there have been two parallel processes in Europe. The However, in our view, increasing co-ordination and Commission has its own work stream, which is summarised co-operation has to be consistent with national sovereignty in the documents before us. However, member states and the accountability of Parliament. It is those principles have participated in a separate strand of work on the that frame our response to the documents and our co-ordination of economic policies under the chairmanship response to the global economic crisis. There is an of Herman Van Rompuy. Many of the issues covered intense global debate about those topics in the G20, the are the same, but there are essential differences between IMF and the OECD, and in Europe. We take part in the two streams. The Commission’s documents detail those debates because, as an open economy, we have a solutions, and the Van Rompuy work reflects the political strong interest in economic stability. We are acutely agreements reached between member states. The next aware that imbalances and problems in one economy step is to bring the Commission’s proposals into line can have a spill-over effect in another. with the taskforce’s recommendations. I shall deal in more detail with three aspects of the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Is the Financial taskforce’s work. Secretary saying that the taskforce document that I have, dated 21 October, has been rewritten? It concludes: Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): “Endorsement by the European Council of the recommendations Is my hon. Friend giving an assurance that not only are in the present report will contribute to strengthening economic there no sanctions—we understand that—but there is governance in the EU”. absolutely no increase in EU jurisdiction over the British It clearly says “in the EU” as a whole. Budget-making process?

Mr Hoban: But the sanctions regime relates only to Mr Hoban: No, there is not, and I shall come to that eurozone countries, and no sanctions can be imposed in more detail. As far as I am aware, there is no on the UK. All that the document is referring to is difference in the power that the House has to set the continuation of the macro-economic surveillance that Budget for the United Kingdom. has been taking place over the past 10 years. Mr Jenkin: I am sorry, but I must insist on the Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): My hon. Minister giving way again. Is there any increase in EU Friend is making his case persuasively, but will he assist jurisdiction over the British Budget-making process as me? The same document from Mr Van Rompuy, dated a result of these arrangements? Yes or no? 21 October—I take it that that is the latest report—clearly states in paragraph 34: Mr Hoban: I do not believe that there is. “The Task Force recommends deeper macro-economic surveillance Let me deal with the three aspects. In every international with the introduction of a new mechanism underpinned by a new economic debate, the issue of increased co-operation legal framework based on Article 121” and co-ordination arises. At last month’s G20 Finance of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union Ministers conference, the focus was on exchange rates alongside the stability and growth pact and current account surpluses. At the IMF annual “applying to all EU Member States”. meeting in early October, there was considerable debate about tackling deficits. Those discussions of macro- Perhaps my hon. Friend will help the House by telling economic policy are not a new feature of the crisis. For us a little about that. example, since its inception, the IMF has undertaken regular reviews under article 4 of macro-economic policies Mr Hoban: I know that that paragraph has caused and made recommendations on policy response, but some interest, but many people stop reading after they are not binding. The EU has had similar procedures “by a new legal framework”. in place for a decade. It is in all our interests for there to I am grateful that my hon. Friend did not fall into that be economic stability in Europe, and the process needs trap. The provision is based on existing treaties, and it is to be strengthened. What we are doing is simply renewing about macro-economic surveillance. A number of the existing framework in the light of the economic organisations conduct macro-economic surveillance of crisis and updating that tools that we have, to ensure the UK economy, and there is nothing new in that. that we can do what we need to do. The measure will broaden the scope of surveillance, but, as far as the UK Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): is concerned, it will not weaken the sovereignty of this I hope that the Financial Secretary realises that we are Parliament. here to support him in a sensible approach to economic Risks to stability often flow from imbalances in the surveillance. Does it not seem rather silly for people to economy, and it is important to look at factors such as say that a country that is in partnership with many current account balances, labour market flexibility and other countries should not be interested if any of those competitiveness across the European Union and to be countries are profligate? Clearly, good surveillance and able to identify problems that could undermine stability. good economic policies throughout the partnership are Macro-economic surveillance has an important role to good for the UK. play as an early-warning system. 363 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 364 Governance Governance Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op) rose— Mr Cash: The explanatory memorandum dealing with the jurisdictional question, which was supplied to Mr Redwood rose— the European Scrutiny Committee on 23 October, states, under the heading “Impact on United Kingdom Law”: Mr Hoban: I should like to make a bit more progress “The Regulations once adopted would be ‘binding in their on this point. entirety and directly applicable in all Member States’. However, in accordance with Article 1 of the proposed Regulation, the Regulation It is right that we should co-operate with this process, on enforcement measures will apply (only) to the Member States but our co-operation should be consistent with the whose currency is the euro.” fiscal sovereignty of the UK. The information that we That is made absolutely clear by the Minister’s own provide to assist with the surveillance will always be document that he supplied to the Committee. information that has been made available to this House before it is passed to the Commission. Everything that Mr Hoban: Hon. Members should think about this the Commission gets will have been in the public domain, carefully. All that we are doing is providing more to the extent that a member of the public will have been information to the Commission, and it is information able to unearth the same data using Google, albeit with that is already in the public domain and that has already less efficiency. been presented to Parliament.

Mark Hendrick: The information might be available Mr Redwood: Will the Minister confirm that there are elsewhere, but the Minister will know that, as a result of two big new regulations that relate directly to the United the proposed new regulation Com. (2010)526, there will Kingdom? One relates to budgetary surveillance on all be an obligation for the UK to provide far more information member states, and the other relates to enforcement than it has done in the past. There may not be penalties against “macro-economic imbalances”, as the Commission involved, and we may well run up budget deficits or so elegantly describes them. These are new powers in levels of debt that were unacceptable to the Commission—I new regulations. Why are the Government consenting am sure we can do that—but the point is that this to them? country will be obliged to provide far more information formally to the Commission than it has in the past. In Mr Hoban: The enforcement point does not apply to my view, that constitutes a degree of transfer of power the United Kingdom as a consequence of protocol 15 to the Commission. of the existing treaty framework, because we have opted out of that part. My right hon. Friend is knowledgeable Mr Hoban: Let me repeat that this involves information about these things, and he will recognise that the that is already out there in the public domain. It is Commission makes proposals, and that ECOFIN and information that will already have been made available the European Council have set out a clear policy framework through, for example, the House of Commons Library, on this, as reflected in the conclusions of the Van the Budget documents, the Red Book or the Green Rompuy taskforce, which make it very clear that sanctions Book. It is information that is already out there, so I do do not apply in the UK. not believe that supplying it will be a problem. Several hon. Members rose— Mark Hendrick: The point is not that the information will have been made available elsewhere; it is that there Mr Hoban: Let me make some more progress; otherwise, will be an obligation on the Government themselves to hon. Members will not have the opportunity to participate make it available. If the Commission wanted to go out in the debate. Let me continue for a few more moments. and find it elsewhere, I am sure that it would do so, but Many organisations and individuals, including the there will now be a new obligation on the Government, IMF and the OECD, scrutinise our economy and our as a result of a new treaty, to give it information that budgets. Many make recommendations or, as happened they were not previously required to give. recently, praise our fiscal consolidation plans. We have nothing to hide from any of these bodies that want to Mr Hoban: I simply do not take the view that giving look at what we announce to Parliament or at the the Commission more information is going to be a economic figures published through the Office for National problem. This goes back to the intervention by my hon. Statistics or through Departments. It is our decision Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex whether or not we listen to their advice. The UK will (Mr Jenkin), who asked whether there is to be an continue to prepare its Budget independently; others increase in EU jurisdiction as a result of this measure. can make recommendations about it, but, crucially, we No, there is not. All that the EU will do is make are under no obligation to take action and, by virtue of recommendations, but they will not bind us or be imposed our opt-out, we are not subject to sanctions. Any on us. We can simply ignore them. There will be no recommendations, as with those made by any other increase in EU jurisdiction as a consequence of this body, will remain just that. It will be down to the measure. Treasury and Parliament, not to the EU, to construct our Budget. Mr Cash rose— Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I am enormously Mr Redwood rose— grateful to the Minister for taking my intervention. As the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) said, these Mr Hoban: I am being bombarded by requests to give regulations are entirely binding on the United Kingdom. way. I shall give way first to my hon. Friend the Member Can the Minister assure us that, if the Government for Stone (Mr Cash). decline to give the information requested under these 365 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 366 Governance Governance regulations, the European Commission will not take for this debate, and a substantial number of Back-Bench enforcement proceedings against the UK Government Members have indicated to me that they wish to speak. for not complying with them? It would be a very sad and unsatisfactory state of affairs if contributions from those on the Front Bench were to Mr Hoban: I do not see the point of not sending exceed in total those from Back Benchers. On that basis, information that is already in the public domain. Why I feel sure that the Minister, who is an adroit fellow, will would we be so churlish as not to send out stuff that be bringing his remarks to a close ere long. could be got from Google or from the Library or by tabling a written question to the Prime Minister? Mr Hoban: I thank you, Mr Speaker, for that encouragement and guidance, and I apologise for being Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I am getting generous in taking interventions. Let me make rapid a little confused. If the information is already in the progress. public domain and any organisation can find it, and if we do not have to listen to any recommendations made, On the issue of sanctions, the same principle applies what is the point of our agreeing to this? for those eurozone countries that are in breach of the stability and growth pact excess deficit procedures. In Mr Hoban: Given that the process is very straightforward, the run-up to the crisis, there was a lack of fiscal I begin to wonder why it is causing so much excitement. discipline, for those inside and outside the euro. Despite The reality is that the information is already available the existence of the stability and growth pact and the and the recommendations do not apply to us. The excess deficit procedure, the eurozone was still undermined enforcement mechanism applies to eurozone states; they by a failure to exert fiscal discipline, and a number of are subject to sanctions, but we have a carve-out from member states in the eurozone have to take tough that because of protocol 15. action to tackle the deficit. To avoid a recurrence, the Commission and member Michael Connarty: May I suggest to the Minister that states in the eurozone have sought to reduce the discretion one of the attractions of the new procedure is that every on the application of the sanction process. The position country in Europe will have to carry this out? They reached by eurozone countries is set out in the taskforce would find out well before any crisis—as we saw in report. Again, it is worth reminding the House that the Greece, for example—that they were in trouble. It is a sanctions regime does not apply to the UK by virtue of little bit of information to give and a lot to get back. I protocol 15 of the current treaty. think that the “Euro-loony party” contingent should leave the Conservative party, so that people with some Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con) rose— common sense can deal with Europe sensibly.

Mr Hoban: I am not going to go down that route, but Mark Reckless rose— it is important that information be available. Over the course of the financial crisis—not just in the EU, but Mr Hoban: I will not give way. I listen carefully to the globally—we have seen the importance of understanding guidance of Mr Speaker. structural imbalances and their impact on other economies. To secure fiscal discipline, strong fiscal frameworks This is an important strand of debate and it will be are required, as our experience in recent years demonstrates. continued when the G20 meets later this week. It was The fiscal rules developed by the previous Government certainly an important strand in the G20 Finance Ministers’ failed, because their flawed design and remarkable flexibility meeting last month, and, indeed, in the IMF’s annual meant that, despite the rules being met, this country still meeting in October. There is nothing new in discussing ended up with a financial crisis. A strong fiscal framework these issues. is necessary if we are to have strong public finances. We There is an existing mechanism for surveillance in have shown leadership on that, for example in creating place through the broad economic policy guidelines, the Office for Budget Responsibility, which has been but the warning mechanism has been used only twice: it welcomed by the IMF and the European Commission. was used for Ireland in 2001, and Greece received a Our reforms meet the highest possible standards, and warning in February this year. An improved mechanism we support responsible fiscal rules at home and abroad. would help towards achieving greater economic stability We have achieved that through the mandate the Chancellor and it is particularly important for the eurozone, where set in his emergency Budget. the effects of imbalances and instability have a greater impact on its members, as has been apparent in recent Mark Reckless: Will the Minister give way? months. That is why eurozone member states support a sanctions regime, penalising eurozone members whose economic policies undermine the stability of the currency Mr Hoban: Although strong fiscal frameworks are and the eurozone economy. The sanctions do not apply vital, we also believe that fiscal sovereignty is crucial, to us, as I have said. I give way— and that is why the frameworks—the mandates, mechanisms and institutions—should be decided by national Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con) rose— Governments and not by European legislation. That position is reflected in the taskforce report, and it is the Mr Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman position that we will adopt in discussions with the intervenes, I note that the Minister has been on his feet Commission. for 21 minutes and has attended most assiduously to a number of interventions, and that is perfectly in order. Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): However, I emphasise that there is an hour and a half Will the Minister give way? 367 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 368 Governance Governance Mr Hoban: We have protected the sovereignty of the Chris Leslie: I shall deal with the nature of the House on fiscal matters, and our position on EU economic changes in a moment—and there are changes. It would governance is clear. We need better macro-economic be a bit disingenuous to suggest that nothing is changing surveillance and fiscal frameworks, because stable and in this regard. sustainable economic growth across Europe is in the From our point of view, eurozone stability and a long-term interest of this country. However, that should sensible crisis mechanism are worthwhile, and it is clearly not be at the cost of our fiscal and economic sovereignty. in our national interest to engage strongly in discussions The Van Rompuy taskforce updates and strengthens and reforms that promote economic stability across the existing framework. On surveillance, therefore, the Europe. We will support sensible changes that benefit taskforce recognises, with explicit references to protocol the United Kingdom. The core idea of improving the 15, that the UK’s opt-outs mean that we are not subject rescue mechanisms for eurozone countries facing severe to the sanctions regime. economic difficulties makes logical sense, and it is also Fiscal frameworks should be stronger, but should not wise to find a permanent footing on which to base any be dictated by Europe. It is the history of this House to new rules rather than relying on temporary arrangements defend fiercely our fiscal sovereignty.Through the agreement that might either expire or be subject to legal challenge. reached, the Government have achieved that. No sanctions However, the Prime Minister and the Government are will be imposed on Britain, and we will be free to set the protesting just a little too much that this is entirely a right fiscal policies for our country’s needs. matter for the eurozone, and absolutely nothing to do with us. In fact, there are indirect implications for our Several hon. Members rose— economy because of changes that might affect economic growth in the eurozone, as well as direct policy implications Mr Speaker: Order. Members are free to try to intervene that could change the way in which we operate in the whenever they wish, and Ministers can respond accordingly. United Kingdom. I simply want it to be understood that the House can do as it wishes, but it should do so with its eyes open. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): My hon. Friend will recall that the previous Prime Minister Mark Reckless: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Did and his Government drew up five economic tests. Had it not the Minister agree to take an intervention, before not been for him, we would not be debating the motion the intervention from the Chair? today, because we would be part of the eurozone.

Mr Speaker: That is not a point of order at all. The Chris Leslie: It was certainly worth punctuating the hon. Gentleman should resume his seat and not dilate. debate with that point, which my hon. Friend made Mr Christopher Leslie. forcefully and well.

5.29 pm Mr Leigh: Will the hon. Gentleman now kindly respond to the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Thank for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless)? Is the Labour you very much, Mr Speaker. party prepared ever to fight for a repatriation of powers, Lurking on the future business section of the Order and would it be prepared to use the veto that it has used Paper for some weeks has been a motion for the House for the purposes of this measure as a bargaining chip to to note the European Union taskforce report on European gain that repatriation of powers? economic governance. Although that gestation period seems to have been overtaken by the events that have Chris Leslie: Our perspective is clearly different from transpired following the European Council, it is a pity that of the hon. Gentleman. I want to consider what is that an urgent question from the hon. Member for on the table. There are details still to come when the Stone (Mr Cash) was required before light began to be European Council meets in December, and we shall shed on any of the details being considered by the real have to look at those proposals then. It seems to me that power brokers in Europe. Our Prime Minister was there is a case to be made for some sort of objective clearly left on the sidelines in many of the discussions. If analysis of just what transfers of policy may or may not I were generous, I might say that that was fair enough, be involved in the proposals that are before us today. given that we are outside the eurozone. However, the European Council meeting at the end of October showed Philip Davies: Does the hon. Gentleman think it clearly that the Germans and the French are very much makes sense for an organisation whose accounts have in the driving seat, leaving the Prime Minister with a not been signed off by auditors for 16 consecutive years few scraps to hold aloft as pseudo-trophies in the European to be given more powers over economic and financial Union budget discussions while clearly being unsure governance? how to cope with the prospect of a new treaty being dropped in his lap. Chris Leslie: The hon. Gentleman has made his point in his own inimitable way, but I do not want to be Mark Reckless: As the Front Benches appear to be in diverted from the substance of what is before us. There agreement on this issue, may I ask the hon. Gentleman is a substantial proposition on the table, and I think it is a question? Surely the point is that, as he said, France important for all Members to understand it. The detail and Germany, which are in the eurozone, need something that will eventually emerge from the final taskforce from us. We had a veto, yet we agreed to this report is important, and it would be useful if the notwithstanding the veto. The 2.9% had already been Minister could deal with some of the question marks agreed by the Council. We had a veto on the Next that hang over some of the detail, to which Members Perspective. What do we get in return? have already alluded. 369 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 370 Governance Governance For example, a series of new fiscal disciplines—as exactly is on the table. If there are to be treaty changes they are called—will be pursued across the European and other new regulations, the Minister has to be straight Union but, of course, largely for eurozone countries; about that with the country and the House. The latest yet the adoption of enforcement measures will apparently sanctions in the framework—in terms of interest bearing be subject to the negative qualified majority voting deposits, non-interest bearing deposits and eventual procedure. That presumably means that the United fines—may not apply to the UK, but there is a first Kingdom will take part in any of those decisions. If that phase to that process which is the application of standards is so, can the Minister say how we will inform our policy and assessments of our economic and fiscal position, position if we are involved in votes on enforcement and that will apply to the UK. The motion seeks measures? While we may not have a vetoing power here, approval for the Government’s position that any sanctions our role could be strategically significant. should not apply to the UK because of our euro opt-out, but there are developments here that strengthen the role Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): My hon. Friend of the EU in respect of our economic policy, and while is using terms like “largely” and “presumably”. These that may be a good thing, some Members of this House are not definite enough for me. Please will he be firmer would be wary of it. and clearer in what he is saying? There are also wider implications for our economy and our growth trajectory. For example, I am particularly Chris Leslie: I wish I could be firmer and clearer, but intrigued by the German argument that bondholders we are dealing with a malleable set of proposals. The should have greater liability—such as in the form of bundle of directives keeps changing, moving and interest payment holidays, or bond value haircuts, as morphing from phase to phase, and the directives will they are known—for potential future eurozone bail-outs. clearly go into a different phase when the European The implications for UK banks and bondholders could Council meets in December, but we can discern the be significant if they are embroiled to a larger extent in rough direction of travel, and many Members will take the crisis management mechanism. UK banks hold a firm view on that. particularly high proportions of Irish and Spanish liabilities. The Minister talked about the sanctions. Yes, it is the A recent Bank for International Settlements report case that they may not apply to the UK because of our found that 22% of Irish bonds and 11% of Spanish opt-out from the euro, but the range of non-binding bonds are in UK hands. There has been much discussion standards and early warning requirements in the event of whether City investors are therefore subject to higher of significant deviation from the adjustment path apparently risk, or whether the markets have already priced that in. would apply to the UK; I should be grateful if the Either way, there are indirect implications for British Minister would confirm that that is the case. Even if the investors. Moreover, the new suite of policy changes UK is to be subject only to such commentaries, public affecting eurozone economic governance will not just observations or other non-binding standards, the Minister be on paper; the changes will bite in the real economies should tell the House how they would work and what in each of the eurozone countries and could have a the implications for us would be. Clearly, what the bearing on their own internal growth and investment taskforce report calls the new reputational and political plans. measures will be phased in progressively, but is it correct to read the proposals as also applying to the UK? In Mark Hendrick: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the other words, is it not true that we will be subject to head. While the UK may not be signed up to the reporting requirements, potential formal reporting to stability and growth pact and we may not be subject to the European Council in certain circumstances and EU deficit procedures, stability and growth in the eurozone enhanced surveillance—whatever “enhanced” may are very important to the British economy. Moreover, mean—if the situation dictates? Is it not also true that the way in which the Government are dealing with our we will be subject to onsite monitoring from a mission deficit will put British growth at risk, and that is part of the EC—which I thought was curious, and which and parcel of how we interact with the other economies certainly might be of interest to some Conservative in Europe. Members—and possible publication in the public domain of these reports and surveillance? Will the proposed Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend makes a strong point. If regulations to strengthen the audit powers of Eurostat fiscal policies across the eurozone are simultaneously also apply to the UK, and what are the anticipated shifted towards a marginally more deflationary stance compliance costs of those changes for the UK and the as a result of the new policy framework that we are Treasury? If we fail to comply with the proposed debating tonight, the resulting contraction in economic requirements, is it not the case that sanctions could be activity and consumer spending could impact on the applied to the UK? sale of British goods and services in those countries. In other words, the eurozone—which, as we know, is by far Mr Redwood: If this House and a properly elected the UK’s largest trading partner, accounting for more British Government have chosen a certain course of than 50% of our exports—could face economic action on the deficit or the balance of payments—or on challenges and, in turn, it is likely that UK companies whatever—how does it help to have the EU marking the will face problems exporting to those markets. Add to homework, condemning it and using moral suasion to that the G20 discussions on international currency issues say that this House is wrong? and an influx of capital to the eurozone following worries over the dollar and the Chinese renminbi and Chris Leslie: Well, my point is that it may or may not we can imagine a relative appreciation of the euro be a sensible move—and as a pro-European I think afflicting our exporters still further. We will have to see benefit could come from it—but what is important is how that latter issue pans out in particular, but this is of that we get clarity from the Government about what significance to the UK. 371 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 372 Governance Governance Mr Jenkin: Is the hon. Gentleman arguing that somehow but responsibly so. We have argued for a sensitive and these arrangements will give us more influence and measured approach to deficit reduction in this country, more control over the economies of other member rather than the doctrinaire approach of steep and swift states? On that basis, should we therefore not be seeking cuts favoured by the parties whose Members sit on the to enter into arrangements of the same sort with, say, Government Benches. the United States, so that we can control its deficit? The I am glad to note the ironic analysis of the Minister US deficit will have far more effect on our economy in the explanatory memorandum that was referred to, than any individual deficit in any individual member which he signed last week. He said that he believed state of the EU. “that the main consideration should be whether a Member State’s debt is on a downward trajectory, rather than the specific pace of Chris Leslie: Those of us in opposition are merely annual debt reduction”. asking questions and scrutinising what is on the table, He also said that the numerical pace should remain but we are trying to find out what will be the impact on “only as an indicative benchmark…that…is not used as a concrete the UK. Ministers are arguing, “Don’t worry, absolutely rule by which Member States’ debt reduction plans are judged.” nothing changes and there is no impact whatever.” As How right he is—if only he applied such pragmatic far as I can see, there are strands and suggestions that sense to our economy and public services in the UK, too. there will be an impact, both direct and indirect. In that respect, although we might have different views, there Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): I am enjoying the hon. might be a point on which we can agree. Gentleman’s measured canter around the potential risks If the eurozone deflation and the shrinkage of European associated with this legislation and I am also entertained economic markets affect our exports, that matters, because to hear the words “stability and growth” coming from the Treasury has depended on them so greatly. The June the Opposition Benches—something that perhaps they Budget and the spending review were predicated on a did not achieve towards the end of their time in office. return to strong economic growth here in the UK, However—perhaps I am front-running his conclusion—is based principally on higher business investment and he going to vote for or against the legislation tonight? strong export growth. The Office for Budget Responsibility analysis shows that the cuts imposed because of the Chris Leslie: As I see it, it is difficult to know yet what Chancellor’s austerity programme and his overly speedy propositions are before us. I want to hear the Minister’s deficit reduction strategy will see private consumption answers to our questions and we will make up our shrink rapidly and Government consumption doing minds then. The substance of the regulations and the the same. eventual treaty changes might be beneficial, but we also have to wait and see what President Van Rompuy Cuts in domestic expenditure will hit growth—that proposes in his eventual treaty amendment and what much is clear—but the Chancellor has bet the shop on emerges from the December Council meeting. We are the countervailing growth in trade and business investment. not at the end of a process; we are in it. There are The Treasury states clearly that it needs £100 billion of further propositions to be put on the table. growth in exports and business investment, yet the last time we saw such a massive rate of growth for exports Mark Hendrick: One regulation that might well be on was in 1974 and we achieved that rate of improvement the table is for any member state of the European in business investment only in 2005, but the Chancellor’s Union, within or outside the eurozone, that has a debt sums depend on the UK achieving both those record level of greater than 60% of GDP to reduce that debt at levels in each of the next three years—a very tall order a rate of at least 5% per annum. That could well be a indeed, equivalent to tripling our exports to the US and regulation that the Government sign up to, even though seeing our exports to China grow 20 times or to India they might not be subject to penalties if they do not 40 times. keep to it. Clearly, our reliance on the eurozone’s appetite for our exports is central to the Chancellor’s strategy, so Chris Leslie: Indeed. There could be significant direct there are implications for British fiscal policy here. policy changes as regards transfers of policy and also indirect economic impacts on the UK. We have to see Kelvin Hopkins: I thank my hon. Friend for giving more detail about what will emerge from those who are way yet again. He focuses on trade, but it is in trade that in the driving seat—unfortunately, that does not seem we have our worst possible relationship with the rest of to be either our Chancellor or our Prime Minister. the EU. We have a gigantic trade deficit. We buy billions Matthew Hancock (West ) (Con): Will the more from them every month than they do from us. The hon. Gentleman give way? only advantage we have had in the last year or two is that we have depreciated the pound relative to the euro Chris Leslie: I want to make a bit of progress—but it and we have started to see a slight improvement in our is too tempting. trade balance with the EU. Matthew Hancock: I am extremely grateful. The Minister Chris Leslie: If we see growth dented here in the UK made a clear statement that this House, under this because those ripples flow from the eurozone—changes Government, will retain fiscal sovereignty. Would the as a result, perhaps, of the measures we are debating—we hon. Gentleman? could see further implications for spending cuts here in the UK in respect of vital public services and more Chris Leslie: We take the view, as we always have, that austerity when perhaps stimulus would be the order of where it was in the British interest to co-operate with the day. However, there is a balance of risks here and it our European colleagues, we would do so. The hon. is clearly important for fiscal discipline to be exercised, Gentleman’s continuing loyalty to the Chancellor is 373 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 374 Governance Governance laudable—he has a record of that—but I am not sure I was glad that the Minister’s explanatory memorandum that he has convinced the colleagues on his own side. stated specifically, on several vital matters, that the The coalition remains precarious on Europe, straddling Government would so many major divisions on how to proceed. It is little “seek to ensure in negotiations” wonder that the Prime Minister is on the margins of that matters of concern would be improved. In doing these discussions in Europe when he is buffeted between so, the memorandum by definition conceded that these the margins of his own Government. He is caught issues have not been resolved entirely, that negotiations somewhere between the pro-European enthusiasms of could improve them, that they do make a difference to the Deputy Prime Minister—at least, that used to be his the United Kingdom, its Government and its Parliament position before the general election, and I am not quite and that they have to be remedied. As Chairman of the sure what his position is now—and the anti-European Committee, I have placed in the Library a note in my Union noises from a sizeable chunk of his party. Will name on all these matters, so anyone who wishes to the Prime Minister persuade his colleagues that any look at them may do so. treaty should not require a referendum? We shall have to wait and see. Although the Government might be I was puzzled by the Prime Minister’s response to a concentrating on papering over the cracks in the coalition, question that I asked during his statement to the House the Opposition will monitor closely the impact of these on the outcome of the European Council meeting. He changes on exports, growth, jobs and the prosperity of accepted that the matter was complex and required a this country. Those are the issues that matter to our greater opportunity for exchange of opinions and constituents and they are our priorities. explanation, but he also said: “This is not a new framework.”—[Official Report, 1 November Several hon. Members rose— 2010; Vol. 517, c. 614.] Mr Speaker: Order. We have fewer than 45 minutes I find that extremely puzzling, however one construes it, and approximately 15 Members are seeking to catch my given the evidence before us and the specific reference eye. Right hon. and hon. Members can do the arithmetic to a new surveillance framework in the taskforce report for themselves, but a certain economy will be required if and in the presidency conclusions that he signed off. many are to be satisfied. The truth is that the Commission intends to exert peer pressure on all member states of the European Union. 5.48 pm The taskforce report of 21 October preceded documents Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): This debate and the being placed in the Library, following an urgent question Minister’s remarks remind me of what Alice said in I asked, emblazoned with the word “limité”, which “Through the Looking-Glass”, when she referred to means very restricted circulation. They included a letter Humpty Dumpty and his rather scornful tone: of 9 July from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to other member states. It might be thought that there was every “‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said…‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.’ reason to present those documents to the European Scrutiny Committee, even if they were not specifically ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.’ depositable. The Committee does not operate by website. ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master— A substantial question on whether the UK is affected that’s all.’” has been dealt with in a note that I received from the That is the essence of the question of European economic Library, from which I shall quote, on increased governance. We have been told that it is good for us, macroeconomic surveillance. It says: that it does not affect us and that it does not make a “It is proposed that a greater role is played by the Commission difference. However much one gets into the interpretation in macroeconomic surveillance. This surveillance mechanism would of those words, the European Scrutiny Committee’s be distinct from that currently taking place under the SGP”— report makes it clear that there are significant differences, the stability and growth pact— in aggregate, between different parts of the regulations “because it is non-fiscal in nature; it will focus on countries’ and directives. If the proposal is accepted by the broader macroeconomic positions in relation to the rest of the Government, they will effectively cross the Rubicon and EU.” similarly, by acquiescing in ever-greater European The note goes on: governance over our economy, they will significantly “The idea of deeper macroeconomic surveillance was put undermine our ability to govern ourselves. We need less forward in March this year as part of the…Europe 2020 proposals”, Europe, not more. which were, of course, under the previous Government. The proposals extend to the United Kingdom, as a The note continues: member of the European Union, thereby raising questions “As originally envisaged, the deeper surveillance framework of sovereignty. Under the aegis of the forthcoming Bill would apply only to the euro area countries; however, the Commission on the European Union, my Committee will hold an proposals of 30th June”— inquiry so that we can sort out once and for all whether after the general election— it is the House of Commons, Parliament and that sovereignty which governs the country, or whether it is “and the Task Force Report of 21st October” the European Union. Under Standing Orders, the both apply to “all Member States”. That is a matter of Committee’s duty is to report to the House, not to the considerable concern. Why have the coalition Government Government, on matters that we regard as requiring agreed to extend the framework to all the member debate by reason of their legal or political importance. states, whereas the previous Government appear to The scrutiny reserve remains in place until the debate have confined it exclusively to the euro area? As my has taken place, and thereafter Ministers can, and no hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) doubt will, vote and/or agree the proposals, but may said, the taskforce recommends deeper macroeconomic continue negotiations. surveillance, with the introduction of a new mechanism 375 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 376 Governance Governance [Mr William Cash] Other member states are beginning to get the message, which is why I think Mr Van Rompuy issued that underpinned by a new legal framework based on article assault on Euroscepticism throughout Europe. He is 121. The Minister’s explanatory memorandum specifically getting the message that people in national Parliaments refers to the legal impact and therefore the jurisdiction are not prepared to accept, for example, the fact that of these matters, as I have already mentioned, which their economies have failed because of the EU’s refusal clearly shows that there is a legal impact on the UK. to deregulate and repatriate. I mention in brief the Therefore, by definition, the proposed mechanism affects Deputy Prime Minister’s remarks on that subject, because the UK and hands over jurisdiction in these matters to he clearly stated that there would be no repatriation, the European Court of Justice for interpretation and despite what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister construction. asserted in his speech to the Centre for Policy Studies Furthermore, it is possible, and even likely, that the in 2005. stricter reporting requirements will apply to the United We need to generate enterprise for small and medium- Kingdom under the macroeconomic surveillance proposals, sized businesses. There is the failure of the Lisbon particularly if the UK were placed in an excessive agenda, massive unemployment, of more than 20% in imbalance position. We have always conceded, right some countries, riots, protests and a sense of failure, from the beginning, way back to the time of the Maastricht despair and democratic hopelessness. This is reflected— rebellion, that there would be no sanctions because of the opt-out that we achieved. The fact that the Government Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying continuously state that it is a victory not to have had very considerably wide of the matters under discussion. sanctions imposed is merely a statement of the obvious. I know that he is a sensitive fellow and will be aware of I go further. I would be grateful if someone could tell the significant number of other Members who wish to me which member states have ever paid any fines or had contribute, so I feel sure that, in bringing his remarks to any sanctions imposed upon them under any of these a fairly early close, he will focus on the matters that are arrangements. The answer is none, and there are those before us, rather than those that are not. who argue that there never will be. Mr Cash: I entirely accept that and will bring my We are in a difficult situation with regard to how we remarks immediately to a conclusion. will vote on the motion. Serious questions arise, and I Rules and regulations will not turn the European was concerned when I read the letter and the appended Union into a thriving economy with which we trade. It document from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which is said that 50% of our trade is with the European I had to extract by way of an urgent question, for which Union, and that the proposals before us are necessary I was most grateful, Mr Speaker. In that, there is a to achieve stability in the European Union. The crucial description of economic governance, the words of which point is that, underneath all those rules and regulations would not be easily understood. It states: and the determination to achieve European economic “Democratic legitimacy is vital to everything that the EU does, governance, we are going the wrong way, not the right and Ministers need to be accountable both to other Member way. The measures do affect us. We need more enterprise, States and to their electorate.” more small businesses, more deregulation and repatriation. I find that a new and strange doctrine, and a rather I am not surprised, therefore that in a recent opinion dangerous one. I had no idea that Ministers were poll 80% of people said that they wanted the repatriation accountable to other EU member states. It is conceded, of powers from the European Union. and I agree, that the United Kingdom Budget will be We are being more and more absorbed by a failed presented first to the UK Parliament, but the essence of European Union. Under this coalition, roadblocks are the problem is that in the compilation and the construction being put up to prevent us from sorting that out, and of the Budget, a series of data and statistical information the new surveillance framework is part of the problem, would have to be provided. That in itself creates the not the solution. I shall vote against the motion. framework that constricts our ability within our parliamentary process to act on our own terms and in 6.2 pm line with the principles that underpin our parliamentary Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I shall join Government—that matters of taxation and spending the hon. and long-winded Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and the formulation of them depend upon the House of in the Lobby tonight, because, whatever our Front Commons, not upon the European Union. Benchers say, there is enough lead in my pencil to realise Given the significance that has been attached to these that the proposals should be opposed, and that the ideas, they represent a drift and an acceptance of European Government’s long-winded motion is unacceptable. economic government through the surveillance framework The measures will impose additional obligations on the by increasing the powers available to the Commission. United Kingdom, but I shall not go into them, because This does not in any way alter the degree of intrusion my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East into the construction of our Budget before it is presented (Chris Leslie) made the main point. It is a question not to Parliament. One of the most difficult aspects is that so much of the obligations, but of the economic effects far from our having a need for much less European of the measures on European markets. economic governance, we are having more. As we move Even if, as the Minister said, the measures are enforced further forward and become more absorbed into this only on eurozone states, they will still have an economic arrangement, we have to ask what is actually happening effect on us, because when discipline is tightened in the in the EU itself. As one of the other national European eurozone, there is eurozone deflation. That is already in scrutiny committee chairmen said to Mr Van Rompuy progress. It was built into the exchange rate mechanism, when I was in Brussels the other day, “Will the European and it is now built into the euro, because Germany has Union go bankrupt if we refuse to obey your rules?” abnormally low inflation. Germany has a marvellous 377 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 378 Governance Governance co-operative arrangement with the unions and with country’s economic performance, reaching public judgments industry. It has heavy investment, powerful producers that could well have an effect on our economic reputation. and abnormally low inflation, but because all the other It sets a scoreboard for how well the country is doing, eurozone states, which have customarily had higher and judges the country by that scoreboard. It carries inflation, wage inflation and costs, are involved in the out reviews and investigations and sends delegations, same currency, they are forced to deflate to German and if the country in question is not responding levels. In other words, the euro is a deflationary mechanism appropriately, the Commission has the power to recommend that forces other nations down to the abnormally low to the Council that that country be placed in the excessive rate of inflation in Germany, and that has consequences. imbalances procedure—something that I think the Minister They are all increasing unemployment, cutting public did not have quite enough time to mention. spending and deflating their economies, and therefore Whether one regards that as a sanction depends on the demand for Germany’s powerful exports falls. an interesting choice of language. In my previous career Our exports are also affected. We now need a period as a member of the Bar, I never thought to console a of export-led growth, having not had that and having prisoner who had just been sentenced to immediate built up an enormous deficit in the European Economic custody by saying to him, “Well, at least you didn’t get a Community.The 25% devaluation that we have experienced fine.” The excessive imbalances procedure could well be because of the previous Prime Minister’s wisdom in borne in mind by those who frame economic policy and keeping us out of the euro allows us to take the adjustments wish to avoid such a consequence. Other Members will on the exchanges, which Greece and the other countries have far more experience of financial services and the cannot do, but we are not getting the benefit of that markets than me, but I do not think that anybody in because of the deflation in European markets. Deflation the markets would be dancing with glee at the news that has been forced on Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain and the country was just about to be placed under such a Ireland, which are all very seriously deflated. Demand procedure. This is all down to the very wide range of in Europe is therefore cut, and it will be cut further if new responsibilities of the European Commission, which these measures are introduced. We need export-led growth is being allocated a much more intrusive role by this and we are not getting it. That is my main argument; I document. will be very brief. The alternative argument is that it is a good thing I am frightened that the Minister’s approach, and the that this is happening; we heard shades of that from the approach involved in the motion, means that on another Labour Front Bench. However, how much confidence issue we will fudge, not fight. Fudge is built into this can we place in the economic management and judgment Government because it is a coalition between the Liberal of the European Commission, considering matters starting Democrats, who are Euro-daft, and my friends and with its rather cavalier treatment of recommendations allies the serried ranks on the Conservative Benches, for the European budget in the current economic whom I hope to join in the Lobby. There is a built-in circumstances, and going all the way back to the fudged tendency to fudge that we have already seen in the criteria for European economic and monetary union? approach to the European budget, where without opposing, Even if one does have great confidence in the European fighting or contesting it, we have agreed a 2.9% increase Commission, there are bigger questions that should which will mean an increase of £440 million in our loom in all our minds. To whom is it accountable? Can contribution to £7 billion next year. This country can ill we ask it questions? Can we hold it to account in this afford that when we are cutting public services. I want House, and who does hold it to account? What can the to avoid the tendency to fudge that is built into this man in the street, the voter, do if he is not happy with Government and to encourage them, by our votes tonight, the economic criteria that it has fashioned for this country? instead to fight on these issues. Ministers should be very careful indeed about the responsibilities that are allocated to the European 6.6 pm Commission. I know that there is a choice of language and a judgment to be made, but after looking through Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): Let me begin the long list of new responsibilities that have been given by congratulating my hon. Friend the Minister on his to the Commission, I think we should be very careful. very full opening speech. I want to say a few words We have heard talk of surveillance and informal discussions, about one or two things that perhaps did not creep into but Ministers should remember that not all that long his remarks. ago, justice and home affairs, and the common foreign I should like to pay a compliment to the President of and security policy, were said to be matters on which the European Union; I suppose that he does not often Ministers would simply carry out informal discussions get that in this place. The words in his report are very between themselves. It was said that they would never clear about what he was trying to do—to put in place a come within the purview of European institutions. new mechanism. That is what he was charged with Today, of course, justice and home affairs are very doing by the European Council, and that is indeed what much within the grasp of European law makers and the he did. It will be no surprise that the President of the European Union, and we now have a European Foreign European Union should seek to discharge that duty by Minister and a European diplomatic service. Not that putting in place a whole raft of new measures giving new long ago, those things were the subject of informal powers and responsibilities to the European Commission. discussions. The Minister helpfully set out those new powers in We should be very careful indeed before setting foot the Government’s explanatory memorandum. That makes down this path. We should consider the matter carefully it clear that the European Commission, whether we say this evening and face up to the enormity of the that it has new responsibilities, new roles or new powers, responsibilities that we are placing upon the European is going to be very busy giving a good going over to this Commission. 379 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 380 Governance Governance 6.11 pm Michael Connarty: The Government use the nomenclature of the EC reference and I am giving the Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Committee reference. When people want to find things, First, I wish to put on record what we are supposed to it is much easier to look at what the European Scrutiny be debating, because Members have wandered all over Committee does under its numbers than to try to find it the place. We are debating a series of six documents in EU documentation. They are, in fact, the same sent to the Government by the European Scrutiny documents. Committee, on which the Government have now taken a position. Four are about the stability and growth There is a very good advert on television—“Calm pact—our Committee reference numbers for them are down, dear, it’s only an advert.” To people who try to 32036, 32043, 32044 and 32047. The other two relate to say that this motion is a major sell-out by the Government, the excessive imbalances procedure—documents 32045 I say, “Calm down, dear, it’s only an information exchange.” and 32046. Frankly, if there is a vote tonight, I will be voting with In the main, those documents make no difference the Government. I will not be voting for any of the whatever to procedures that the UK has to carry out. absurd amendments that have been tabled. The Government However, a lot of heat has been made about the fact are doing the right thing. I am not out to score points that they affect other countries, and that if the conspiracy on behalf of my party against another party. Our theory of the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) relationship with the other 27 countries with which we is borne out, they may affect our Government, who will do most of our trade is far too serious for that. We must have to give up their fiscal veto. The same was said in not kid people. The hon. Member for Hertsmere, with the exchanges on the recent urgent question asked by whom I sit in the European Scrutiny Committee, did the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). However, we are not complete his quote from paragraph 34, page 8 of quite clearly protected in the Lisbon treaty and do not the taskforce report, which said: have to go down that road. “taking into account the specificity of the euro area.” The documents will not have any effect on us, because Paragraph 35 talks about the Commission conducting we are not a member of the eurozone. They can be read in-depth analysis and surveillance missions in detail, and Members will find that the coercive measures “in liaison with the ECB for euro area…states.” set out in them do not relate to anyone outside the It is quite clear that these documents are about the eurozone. The Government’s position is therefore to eurozone. I know that there are problems in the eurozone, note the documents. but when signing up to the euro one takes on such On 27 October, the Government made their position responsibilities. clear in response to the hon. Gentleman’s urgent question. The Financial Secretary quoted the report of the taskforce Mr Clappison rose— on strengthening economic governance in the EU, which has been referred to today as though it were a conspiracy Michael Connarty: Given that we are trying to let document. It states that people speak, I will not give way. “strengthened enforcement measures need to be implemented for Let us be sensible. To give and exchange information all EU Member States, except the UK as a consequence of protocol 15 of the Treaty”. is sensible, as is surveillance. Without any wish to criticise anyone in this or the previous Government, I say that That is quite clear. The hon. Gentleman reiterated that when comments were being made about our imbalances, “we will not agree to any changes to EU treaties that move more perhaps our Government should have listened, and powers from this country to the EU. The UK’s exemption from the sanctions proposal will be explicit, and there will be no shift of then we would not be living in such straitened times. sovereignty from Westminster to Brussels.”—[Official Report, 27 October 2010; Vol. 517, c. 319.] 6.17 pm It is important that we are clear about what we are trying to do. Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): The question that this House must face is this: do these We should be sensible in our debates, and I say to measures and the possible treaty change that they presage Members to whom the EU is anathema, or who are constitute a threat to the sovereignty of this country or Eurosceptic to a great degree, that they should not an opportunity for us to regain a little sovereignty? If diminish what they have to say about important matters the measures envisage a substantive transfer of sovereignty, relating to the Government’s position on the EU by restricting our fiscal and economic freedom, then the arguing that somehow we are selling out if we do what issue is clear: we should veto them or seek a full exemption is asked in document 32047, which is about the surveillance from them. If the Government were to contemplate mechanism in the reporting regime. If we do not know accepting them without a full exemption, there would what 26 of the 27 countries are doing in their budgets, have to be a referendum. Indeed, the very prospect of a we must agree on a proposal for everyone to put in referendum would be enough to gain us full exemption. information, so that both we and the Commission My hon. Friends have concerns, which I fully understand know what other Governments are doing. If we had and respect, that although limited to giving information done that we would have known how badly Greece’s and possibly signing up to targets that we could not be economy was faring when it was suddenly found not to compelled to meet, these measures may be the thin end be putting accurate figures in to the European Commission. of a Trojan horse—if I may mix my metaphors. Mr Jenkin: Just for the convenience of the House, We have seen in the past how wording that has been will the hon. Gentleman explain why the numbers of glossed over has led to the transfer of powers. So far, I the documents that he has read out do not correspond am not persuaded that the measures and what is envisaged with the numbers in the Government’s motion, because in the treaty changes would result in a substantial those are the documents that we are scrutinising? transfer of sovereignty. However, I shall listen closely, 381 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 382 Governance Governance and advise others to inspect thoroughly and scrutinise is known as the excessive deficit procedure—reference is deeply. If at the end of the day we are signing up just to made to all member states, but a little later it refers in the sort of surveillance that we already receive from the two places to the eurozone. The third draft regulation IMF, that would not worry me too much. Indeed, then I talks about eurozone states. The two further regulations, would say to myself, “This is an opportunity.” If the on macro-economic imbalances, refer to member states— measures solely concern the members of the eurozone, not “all member states”—or, alternatively, to eurozone but none the less require our assent before they can go member states, but right at the end there is a reference ahead, we should say to them, “We will let you do to to non-eurozone member states except the UK. I want yourselves what you want. We will give you the necessary to be clear that the provisions apply to the eurozone, approval, if in return you let us do some things that we not to the United Kingdom, so that we can know precisely want to do, which won’t concern you, by repatriating where we stand on sovereignty over our own economy. some powers.” We on the Conservative Benches were elected on a Stephen Williams ( West) (LD): I, too, had to manifesto that said: read the documents several times before I began to “We will work to bring back key powers over legal rights, understand what was being proposed, but is not the criminal justice and social and employment legislation to the simple distinction that the information-sharing provisions UK.” apply to all EU member states, whereas the sanctions We have a target, and this is an opportunity, so we under the stability and growth pact apply only to eurozone should seize it. However, we are, of course, a coalition members? Government, so we should seek modest returns of powers that are compatible with the objectives of the whole coalition. Liberal Members in the west country Kelvin Hopkins: The Minister himself said that any expressed their hope for a return of powers over fisheries; information about the economy that was needed could indeed, they stood at the election on it. Fisheries are not be found by googling it, and there is also the Library a big issue in my inland constituency, but I would be note on economic indicators, which I use regularly. All prepared to work with those Members for a return of the information is there—for example, in the Budget powers. statements and so on—and we do not need to provide much more than that. There is masses of public information. However, the coalition agreement is quite specific. It We do not need to have it in regulations. It can be says not only that we will provided as a matter of course. We must put down a “ensure that there is no further transfer of sovereignty or powers marker for the European Union saying that we will not over the course of the next Parliament,” go this far, and that we do not want changes that show but that we will political creep or gradual encroachment of the European “examine the balance of the EU’s existing competences and will, Union into British sovereignty over our own economy, in particular, work to limit the application of the Working Time going beyond the treaties. Directive in the United Kingdom.” I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Great I therefore have a simple question for the Minister, Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) about the nonsense of the which I hope he will answer in the affirmative in his eurozone and the economic arrangements that it entails. winding-up speech. Will we be using this opportunity There is a reference to “surveillance of macroeconomic both to meet the objectives laid out clearly in the imbalances”, but the trade imbalance that I focused on coalition agreement and, in return for our consent to earlier in the debate is serious. We have a massive trade such measures, to seek to limit the application of the deficit with the rest of the European Union, particularly working time directive to the United Kingdom? Germany, which sustains a massive trade surplus. Will the European Union focus on that imbalance? 6.22 pm In 1944, Keynes said that countries running massive Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I shall speak trade surpluses should be required to appreciate their briefly, but it is important for the House to know that currencies to bring them into line. Will that be suggested there are also Members on the Opposition Benches who to Germany? That cannot happen because Germany is will be voting against the Government motion, and on in the eurozone, and all those other countries that similar grounds to do with the implicit transfer of cannot compete and cannot inflate at a greater rate are sovereignty in the Commission’s initiative. I congratulate having severe difficulties, which are becoming worse the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, the year by year. Will that imbalance be addressed? When it hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), on ensuring that the is, I will start to take the European Union a little more House is fully aware of the concern about such matters seriously on economic matters. and on the fact that we are having this debate, as it is I have probably said enough. I intend to vote against largely down to him. the motion, and I hope that the Government will challenge There is serious confusion about the wording of the the European Union to make the wording of its documents. The terms “all member states”, “eurozone documentation right and acceptable to the United states” and “non-eurozone states except the UK” are Kingdom. used at different points throughout. It would be simpler if only the term “eurozone states” was used throughout, Several hon. Members rose— so that we could be absolutely clear that the provisions apply only to the eurozone states. In the first draft regulation—on the preventive arm of the stability and Mr Speaker: Order. I intend to call the Minister to growth pact, as it is called—reference is made to all wind up the debate no later than 6.31 pm, and I am sure member states. In the second draft regulation—on what that that will be borne in mind. 383 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 384 Governance Governance 6.26 pm “Europe must show it is more than 27 different national solutions”. Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): I shall be He said 27, not 16. It is clear that his intention is that brief, and I shall vote against the motion. The House is the new arrangements apply to the UK. Van Rompuy being asked to endorse an agreement that would strengthen went out of his way to warn against creating what he European Union economic governance. It is not in called “dividing lines” between 27 member states and dispute that the new measures would give EU institutions, 16 eurozone countries. What were clear assurances to be the Commission and the Council greater powers. What welcomed and embraced in early summer had, by the is in dispute is, first, the extent to which such changes onset of autumn, become dividing lines to be done would involve the United Kingdom, and whether the away with. new arrangements would apply only to the 16 members of the eurozone, or to all 27 member states, including Paragraph 34 of the Van Rompuy report states that Britain. there will be a new legal framework The second point of contention is the extent to which “applying to all EU Member States”. Britain is now subject to EU oversight when we set our Can the Minister explain what part of “all” excludes own Budget. Having gone to Brussels promising not to Britain? Regardless of paragraphs 35 and 39, or reference give away so much of our money, Ministers seem to to protocol 15 of any treaty, such wording creates have returned having given Brussels the right to have a ambivalence at the very least. It suggests that EU institutions say in how we spend the rest of our Budget. will now be able to legislate in areas of UK national No one was more heartened than I to hear the Prime competence in which they could not previously legislate. Minister tell the House back in June that any new deal Has the precedent now been set? Is the field occupied? with the EU Is not the stage set for the day when some other Minister returns from Brussels to explain to the House how we “should not interfere with national competencies”. have been sadly outvoted? He also said: So who is right? Ministers who assure us, or Eurocrats “On budget surveillance, let me be clear: the UK Budget will who do not? How can we explain the differences between be shown to this House first and not to the Commission…co- Ministers’ assurances and what lies in the small print of ordination and consultation, yes; clearance, no, never.”—[Official Report, 21 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 35.] what is before the House today? At best, this can be explained by sloppy drafting by officials, but if that is Such assurances were welcome, yet within a couple of the case, why are we employing sloppy drafters to weeks we heard Olli Rehn, the Economic and Monetary negotiate matters of such fundamental importance? Policy Commissioner, spell out the details. He said: Are those officials the ones on whom we will depend to “All member states would submit their fiscal programmes at turn the contents of the Van Rompuy report into the the same time in April to allow the Council to issue country treaty changes? I cannot support the motion, as it will specific policy guidelines”. mean a further transfer of powers from this country to Is it any wonder that when the Chancellor appeared Brussels. I urge colleagues to oppose it. before the Treasury Select Committee he was able to reveal the date of the next Budget? It is now part of a timetable set in Brussels. 6.30 pm Ministers have claimed that the level of disclosure is Mr Hoban: I have listened carefully to hon. Members’ nothing new, and that it is no more than what a think-tank concerns tonight, and I want to state yet again that the might find out about UK fiscal policy via Google. proposals from the Van Rompuy taskforce strengthen Indeed, but think-tanks do not have the power to issue an existing framework, crucially without encroaching guidelines, and they cannot pass legislation on the basis on fiscal and economic sovereignty. There is much more of the analysis that they then make. work to be done on this, but let me assure my right hon. Ministers are keen to tell us that as a result of the new and hon. Friends that the Government are committed arrangements Britain would not at this time be subject to securing the best outcome from the proposals, to to sanctions. To the best of my knowledge, no one is defending Britain’s interests and to protecting this suggesting otherwise. The issue at stake is not whether Parliament’s right to set and scrutinise our fiscal policy. the new EU regulations apply sanctions to the UK, but Anything less would not be acceptable. whether, from now on, the EU has the right to make I shall deal with some of the issues that have been laws on UK fiscal policy in the first place. raised in the debate. Does the fact that the EU, along At his press conference on 17 June, the Prime Minister with other organisations, undertakes surveillance mean assured us that because we are outside the eurozone our that we will be subject to sanctions? No, it does not. opt-outs would be safeguarded. He talked of Van Rompuy’s Does the measure mean that we will need to follow any efforts to “strengthen Eurozone governance arrangements”. of the recommendations made? No. Will we have to He referred to the eurozone, not the EU. Since then, the present our Budget to Europe before we present it to talk has been not of eurozone economic governance this House? No. Will we have to give the EU information arrangements, but of EU governance arrangements. that has not been presented to this House first? No. Will Within a couple of weeks of the Prime Minister’s assurances, the provision of information erode our sovereignty? talk shifted from measures that would affect just the No. Perhaps more importantly, will any powers over 16 eurozone members to measures that would apply to our Budget be transferred from Westminster to Brussels? all 27 member states, including Britain. Again, no. I hope that I have been clear and explicit on Angela Merkel made it clear that economic governance those points, and it is for those reasons that I ask should apply to all EU states, not just the eurozone. Members to support the motion tonight. Barroso declared with reference to economic governance: Question put. 385 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 European Union Economic 386 Governance Governance The House divided: Ayes 296, Noes 40. Howell, John Norman, Jesse Division No. 115] [6.32 pm Hughes, Simon Offord, Mr Matthew Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Hunter, Mark Opperman, Guy AYES Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, Richard Adams, Nigel Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Paice, Mr James Aldous, Peter Duncan, rh Mr Alan James, Margot Parish, Neil Amess, Mr David Duncan Smith, rh Mr Javid, Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Andrew, Stuart Iain Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Penning, Mike Bacon, Mr Richard Durkan, Mark Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Bagshawe, Ms Louise Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr David Perry, Claire Baker, Norman Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Phillips, Stephen Baldry, Tony Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Pickles, rh Mr Eric Baldwin, Harriett Elphicke, Charlie Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pincher, Christopher Barker, Gregory Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Poulter, Dr Daniel Barwell, Gavin Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Mr Greg Prisk, Mr Mark Bebb, Guto Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, Dr John Beith, rh Sir Alan Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Bellingham, Mr Henry Fallon, Michael Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan Benyon, Richard Featherstone, Lynne Lancaster, Mark Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Beresford, Sir Paul Field, Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robathan, Mr Andrew Berry, Jake Flynn, Paul Latham, Pauline Robertson, Hugh Bingham, Andrew Foster, Mr Don Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Birtwistle, Gordon Francois, rh Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew Blackman, Bob Freeman, George Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber Blackwood, Nicola Freer, Mike Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Blunt, Mr Crispin Fullbrook, Lorraine Lefroy, Jeremy Russell, Bob Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Rutley, David Bottomley, Peter Gale, Mr Roger Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sanders, Mr Adrian Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura Brake, Tom Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Scott, Mr Lee Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Ian Selous, Andrew Brazier, Mr Julian Gibb, Mr Nick Lidington, Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Brine, Mr Steve Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sharma, Alok Brokenshire, James Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Long, Naomi Shelbrooke, Alec Brooke, Annette Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Simmonds, Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Simpson, Mr Keith Bruce, rh Malcolm Graham, Richard Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris Buckland, Mr Robert Grant, Mrs Helen Lucas, Caroline Smith, Miss Chloe Burley, Mr Aidan Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Smith, Henry Burns, Conor Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Smith, Julian Burns, Mr Simon Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Macleod, Mary Smith, Sir Robert Burrowes, Mr David Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Soames, Nicholas Burstow, Paul Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Soubry, Anna Burt, Alistair Gyimah, Mr Sam Maynard, Paul Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burt, Lorely Halfon, Robert McCartney, Karl Spencer, Mr Mark Byles, Dan Hames, Duncan McIntosh, Miss Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Cairns, Alun Hammond, rh Mr McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Philip McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John Menzies Hammond, Stephen McVey, Esther Stewart, Bob Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hancock, Matthew Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Mr Mike Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Rory Chishti, Rehman Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria Stride, Mel Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Stuart, Mr Graham Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Stunell, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Sturdy, Julian Collins, Damian Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Swales, Ian Colvile, Oliver Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Swayne, Mr Desmond Crabb, Stephen Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, David Swinson, Jo Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Morris, James Syms, Mr Robert Davey, Mr Edward Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Teather, Sarah Davies, David T. C. Hemming, John Mowat, David Thurso, John (Monmouth) Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Timpson, Mr Edward Davies, Glyn Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Tomlinson, Justin de Bois, Nick Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Tredinnick, David Dinenage, Caroline Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Truss, Elizabeth Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kris Neill, Robert Uppal, Paul Dorries, Nadine Horwood, Martin Newton, Sarah Vaizey, Mr Edward Doyle-Price, Jackie Howarth, Mr Gerald Nokes, Caroline Vara, Mr Shailesh 387 European Union Economic 10 NOVEMBER 2010 388 Governance Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Williams, Roger notes with approval that budgetary and fiscal information will Walker, Mr Robin Williams, Stephen continue to be presented to Parliament before being given to EU Wallace, Mr Ben Williamson, Gavin institutions; and approves the Government’s position, as endorsed Ward, Mr David Willott, Jenny by the Task Force that any sanctions proposed should not apply Watkinson, Angela Wilson, Mr Rob to the United Kingdom in consideration of Protocol 15 of the Weatherley, Mike Wollaston, Dr Sarah Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. Webb, Steve Wright, Simon Wharton, James Yeo, Mr Tim Business without Debate Wheeler, Heather Young, rh Sir George White, Chris Zahawi, Nadhim DELEGATED LEGISLATION Whittaker, Craig Tellers for the Ayes: Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Whittingdale, Mr John Mr Brooks Newmark and Order No. 118(6)), Wiggin, Bill Jeremy Wright FREEDOM OF INFORMATION NOES That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Mark Baker, Steve Lewis, Dr Julian Hoban relating to European Union Economic Governance. Binley, Mr Brian McCartney, Jason —(Mr Dunne.) Bridgen, Andrew McDonnell, John Campbell, Mr Ronnie Mitchell, Austin Question agreed to. Carswell, Mr Douglas Nuttall, Mr David Cash, Mr William Paisley, Ian HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS’ FUND Chope, Mr Christopher Percy, Andrew (DISCRETIONARY PAYMENTS) Clappison, Mr James Raab, Mr Dominic Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Order, Corbyn, Jeremy Redwood, rh Mr John 2 November, and Standing Order No. 118(6)), Cryer, John Shannon, Jim That, pursuant to section 4(4) of the House of Commons Davies, Philip Shepherd, Mr Richard Members’ Fund Act 1948 and section 1(4) of the House of Davis, rh Mr David Simpson, David Commons Members’ Fund Act 1957, in the year commencing Dobson, rh Frank Skinner, Mr Dennis 1 October 2010 there be appropriated for the purposes of section 4 Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Stringer, Graham of the House of Commons Members’ Fund Act 1948: Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Tapsell, Sir Peter (1) The whole of the sums deducted or set aside in that year Drax, Richard Turner, Mr Andrew under section 1(3) of the House of Commons Members’ Fund Godsiff, Mr Roger Vickers, Martin Act 1939 from the salaries of Members of the House of Commons; Gray, Mr James Wood, Mike and Henderson, Gordon (2) The whole of the Treasury contribution to the Fund in that Hoey, Kate Tellers for the Noes: year. —(Mr Dunne.) Hollobone, Mr Philip Mr Peter Bone and Question agreed to. Hopkins, Kelvin Mark Reckless PETITION Question accordingly agreed to. Factory Farming Resolved, That this House takes note of European Union Documents 6.48 pm (a) 9433/10, Commission Communication on reinforcing economic Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): The policy co-ordination, (b) 11807/10, Commission Communication petition states: on enhancing economic policy co-ordination for stability, growth and jobs – tools for stronger EU economic governance, (c) The Petition of residents of the Coventry South constituency, 14496/10, Proposal for a Council Regulation (EU) amending Declares that the Petitioners believe that animals in British Regulation (EC) No. 1467/97 on speeding up and clarifying the factory farms are pumped full of protein to speed up their implementation of the excessive deficit procedure, (d) 14497/10, growth; notes that soy is a major source of protein; further notes Proposal for a Council Directive on requirements for budgetary that, in order to produce enough protein, precious habitats like frameworks of the Member States, (e) 14498/10, Proposal for a rainforests are cleared in South America to make way for vast soy Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on plantations; and further declares that this increases climate changing the effective enforcement of budgetary surveillance in the euro gases in the atmosphere, damages the Earth’s free life-support area, (f) 14512/10, Proposal for a Regulation of the European systems, which provide us with clean water, healthy soil and air to Parliament and of the Council on enforcement measures to breathe, forces small farmers off their land, making them unable correct excessive macroeconomic imbalances in the euro area, (g) to grow food for their families, and fails UK farmers, leaving 14515/10, Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament them vulnerable to fluctuating commodity prices. and of the Council on the prevention and correction of The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons macroeconomic imbalances, and (h) 14520/10, Proposal for a urges the Government to take steps to shift subsidies away from Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council factory farming, to support farmers to grow their own animal amending Regulation (EC) No. 1466/97 on the strengthening of feed and to ensure supermarkets offer fair deals to everyone. the surveillance of budgetary positions and the surveillance and And the Petitioners remain, etc. co-ordination of economic policies; notes the Report from the [P000866] Task Force on Economic Governance in the European Union; 389 10 NOVEMBER 2010 BBC Funding (CSR) 390

BBC Funding (CSR) Ian Murray: I think the BBC has a lot to learn on those principles. However, I will talk shortly about what Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House the Government have done by not including licence fee do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.) payers in the comprehensive spending review and the future of the BBC. 6.49 pm The BBC is a globally respected brand, which is why Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Mr Deputy the House should be concerned for its future, and it has Speaker, all day long colleagues have been tempting me been described as a national treasure, which is why to say, “Nice to see you, to see you—” Labour Members will always stand up for it as a friend, although a critical friend. I must state clearly at the Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Nice! outset that the BBC should not be immune from reform or cuts at a time when we are all supposed to be in this together, but that reform process has to be done through Ian Murray: I thank the hon. Lady for that sedentary negotiation and with respect for what the BBC delivers intervention. and the people—its staff—who deliver the service on Ever since the BBC’s inception in 1922, it has played behalf of us all. a major role in this country. The public not only admire The outcome for the BBC from the CSR has shown the BBC; they trust the corporation to deliver real value contempt for the corporation, and the opportunity has and quality while they watch and listen to its channels been lost truly to change the organisation in the context or, more recently, surf its online content. Indeed, the of a new digital age, changing and fast-moving markets quality of the BBC output could only be improved by and, significantly, shrinking budgets across the sector in you, Mr Deputy Speaker, appearing as the guest presenter programme making. on “Have I Got News For You” or by light-footed former Conservative Members appearing on “Strictly The BBC also has a responsibility to consolidate its Come Dancing.” own activities within the continual pursuit of excellence We must, however, protect what the BBC provides alongside an honest examination of the role of both the and how it is paid for. The licence fee enables our BBC and, more importantly, public sector broadcasting. national public-sector broadcaster to provide 10 TV The final settlement for the BBC through the comprehensive channels, 10 UK-wide network radio stations, 46 nations’ spending review is yet another example of the Government’s and local radio services, regional options, interactive undue haste. We have seen that with the dangerous services on BBC iPlayer, and high definition television, too-deep, too-soon, too-quick cuts that will harm jobs, as well as the ever-popular BBC websites which attract harm growth and threaten the already fragile UK economy. 22 million unique users in the UK every week. On top The CSR deal for the BBC was put together in of all that output, the BBC is the engine room of the 72 hours. It was a dubious deal, with Ministers embarking country’s hugely important creative industries. on a strategy to intimidate the BBC into accepting Let us consider the value of the licence fee. It costs whatever came its way. Why? Because the outrageous about 40p per day, which is less than half the cost of proposal that the BBC take responsibility for free TV many daily newspapers and about the same as the price licences for the over-75s hung over it like a guillotine. of a pint of milk or a first-class stamp. It costs less than What would be next? The licence fee paying for the the price of half a loaf of bread, 20 times less than the winter fuel allowance, child benefit or perhaps even the average cinema ticket, and a 25th of the cost of joining Prime Minister’s new personal photographer? the Liberal Democrats. The licence fee also enables the That threat ensured that the BBC would grab the deal BBC to invest in the UK as a whole, with a commitment given to it through the CSR quickly and with both to 50% of network production coming from outside hands. Let us look at the settlement it was given. It London by 2016 as well as a commitment to the BBC includes a freeze in the licence fee for the remainder of regions in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. the charter period and the BBC taking on funding for Most importantly, the BBC delivers a significant the BBC World Service, BBC Monitoring and the Welsh contribution to the creative industries and the UK language channel S4C. In addition, the BBC will be economy. Britain’s creative sector, which accounts for supporting the Secretary of State’s pet project, the new about 6% of the UK’s GDP, can make a significant City TV, through a £25 million ring-fenced partnership contribution to economic growth and employment. Having fund. It will also be given responsibility for delivering grown at a faster rate than the general economy in broadband services. All in all, there is a £340 million bill recent years, the creative industries are now expected to alongside a 16% real-terms reduction in licence fee grow by 4% on average in the next five years. The income over the period. beneficial impact of the BBC to that is some £7.6 billion This “delicious” deal, as the Prime Minister described a year, including more than £150 million through BBC it, was so hastily contrived that it prevented proper Worldwide. consultation and debate with licence payers, stakeholders and, most importantly, BBC staff themselves to the Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I congratulate the extent that we are left with no real way of knowing the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. He true impact on the BBC. Will it affect the quality of has made the case for the licence fee, and there is programming? Will it mean the BBC stopping services? obviously a case for it, but does he not agree that the big Will it mean significant job cuts? Will it damage the problem with it is that no licence fee payer has a say in independence of the BBC and the BBC World Service? how the BBC is run? We need to democratise the licence Will the board of S4C take the Government to court, fee and give licence fee payers the vote, at least in due to it not being consulted about its funding being respect of the board and trust and the BBC’s direction. transferred to the BBC? 391 BBC Funding (CSR)10 NOVEMBER 2010 BBC Funding (CSR) 392

[Ian Murray] have to seek the Foreign Secretary’s approval for World Service closures. The fact that the word “closure” is Conversely, this rushed deal has also restricted the used must concern staff and lovers of the service. opportunity to keep the pressure on the BBC to continue Furthermore, the BBC World Service is well regarded on its programme of reform in terms of bureaucracy as the best international diplomacy and peacekeeping and excessive executive pay. device that the UK has—more effective, indeed, than the UN or any military might. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Has he, like me, received Indeed, if you will indulge me, Mr Deputy Speaker, many representations from constituents arguing against the BBC World Service won several awards just last any freezing of, or indeed cuts in, the licence fee and night, demonstrating the distinctive programming that supporting its retention so that a quality service can it can provide. At the Association for International continue to be provided by the BBC? Broadcasting awards, the BBC World Service won the best current affairs documentary on radio award and Ian Murray: I welcome the intervention from my hon. the best single news event radio award for its “Connexion Friend, who raises an important point. Many Members, Haiti” team and a drama award for the best creative I am sure, will have received dozens, if not hundreds, of feature on radio for “The Day that Lehman Died”. e-mails, letters and telephone calls from people who are That shows that listeners the world over appreciate the concerned about the BBC, cuts to it and what it delivers. role of the World Service. Constituents have raised that point with me on numerous Will the Minister tell the House what the future is for occasions. S4C, given that the Secretary of State recently wrote to To go back to the missed opportunity, the BBC was the chair of the BBC Trust stating that entering into a new culture of transparency and “if the new partnership model between S4C and the BBC proves accountability—a programme that was, on its own unviable…the BBC contribution required for S4C will be taken measurement, to save £2 billion by 2014. I want to ask from the licence fee”? the Minister some questions about the future of the I read that to mean that S4C could potentially be closed BBC. Is this deal on top of the BBC’s current strategy if it becomes unviable. Crucially, how will licence payers, to save £2 billion by 2014? What criteria will be applied BBC staff and stakeholders be consulted in that process? to where the cuts will fall? Will there be job losses and a If the economic situation changes, will the Government reduction in quality? What impact will the cuts have on assure the House that the Government do not reserve the move to the media city in Salford and the programming the right to go back to the BBC licence fee issue in the being transferred to the regions—50% by 2016, I think? course of this licence charter period? If the Secretary of Who is now responsible for the roll-out of broadband—the State cannot answer those questions this evening, will Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the Department he be willing to provide me with a written answer to for Business, Innovation and Skills or indeed the BBC? those points? What will the future hold for the BBC World Service? What budget protection will the World Service have? The comprehensive spending review reduced the BBC Will that critical service have to compete with other to the status of just another arm of government where parts of the BBC budget in due course? the veil of deficit was used to disguise rash decisions free of proper scrutiny or credible analysis, leaving the Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Is not the real problem question of where the axe will fall. We have seen the with the BBC the fact that it has expanded into areas response of the public to decisions on axing BBC that it should not have expanded into, and that it has services—we need merely look back to earlier this year, lost sight of the fact that it is a maker and broadcaster with the campaigns to save the Asian Network and of programmes? In moving into websites, it is taking 6 Music. Those services were seen by many as benchmarks away from other websites. Most importantly, it is taking of diversity, equality and innovation in public sector away the ability of people to work in print journalism. broadcasting. It is really threatening newspapers and other websites. There has been no statement in the House on the issues to do with the comprehensive spending review Ian Murray: I appreciate that intervention, but the and the BBC. I respectfully ask the Government to BBC has been involved in a programme of reform of provide space in their time for proper debate on and what it supplies on the website. The list of duties that analysis of the consequences of the CSR, the future of has been placed on the BBC by the comprehensive the BBC and the future of public sector broadcasting in spending review has given it more responsibility, not the UK. This situation shows the Government’s attitude less. It is the opposite idea to that which has been given towards the BBC. The “delicious” cuts comment by the by the— Prime Minister was, as he later admitted, “ill conceived” 7pm and disrespectful to the BBC and showed a callous Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(7)). disregard for the potential job losses at the corporation akin to the Government’s ideologically driven 1 million Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House cuts through the CSR in general. do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.) The future of the BBC is a matter of significant Ian Murray: I will get used to the procedures in this public interest. Opposition Members will stand up for Chamber, I am sure, Mr Deputy Speaker. the BBC, for what it provides for the cultural make-up On the World Service, will the BBC have budget of this country and for the contribution it makes to the protection or will the World Service have to compete UK economy. It projects the best of the UK abroad and with other parts of the BBC budget in due course? is undoubtedly a national treasure that is well loved, What role will the Foreign Secretary have in that process? respected and should be protected for the future at The Secretary of State mentioned that the BBC would all costs. 393 BBC Funding (CSR)10 NOVEMBER 2010 BBC Funding (CSR) 394

7.4 pm need to survive from advertising revenue and would have to focus on mass-market universal appeal, but that Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I congratulate my market is filled by ITV,Sky and Channel Five domestically. hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian That would involve, in short, a dumbed-down, broadest- Murray) on securing this vital debate. We all recognise appeal schedule. I cannot support anything that undermines the role of the BBC in the world. The then shadow the BBC and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for for Edinburgh South again on securing the debate. South Shields (), said that the World service is an independent “credible voice in parts of the world where the only other messages 7.8 pm blend threats and propaganda”. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I, too, That is quite true. I echo those worlds and support the congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh South World Service, which is a vital service. (Ian Murray) on securing the debate. Let me declare an The changes being made following the comprehensive interest: I worked for the BBC before coming to Parliament spending review raise serious concerns about the future and I am still engaged in a financial transaction with it. of the BBC World Service and about the BBC’s ability That aside, I want to pay tribute to the Secretary of to continue providing a public broadcast service that is State for Culture, Media and Sport for the role he has informative and represents value for money. Transferring played in working with the BBC, as well as to the budgetary responsibility from the Foreign and Minister answering the debate, the Under-Secretary of Commonwealth Office or the Treasury to the BBC State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. opens the door to editorial cuts. There has been concern Friend the for Wantage (Mr Vaizey). recently that the BBC World Service could be forced to I am a passionate defender of the BBC and I value pull out of certain countries, which would be a tragedy what it brings to our country and our worldwide reputation. given the turbulence in Burma and Iran. I know that the I have heard the points in favour of the World Service BBC has reinstated its World Service in those areas, but and similar services, and I want to give some assurances. we do not want future cuts to compromise Britain’s I appreciate that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, interests. but I believe that the BBC can perfectly well survive on I recognise that the BBC, as a publicly funded body, the comprehensive spending review settlement of a is obliged to consider its expenditure and whether savings frozen licence fee for the next few years. It has made a can be made, but that cannot be at the expense of a good start with the executive board deciding to slim public service that is valuable at home and abroad. The down. That is good news and will help the BBC to BBC World Service is one of Britain’s most effective continue to be a dynamic organisation. It has tackled and vital assets and we should protect and promote it. the difficult pension dispute, although I must admit that We should not reduce our investment in international if I still worked there, I would have bridled at the broadcasting. The National Union of Journalists has original pension deal. It has now come up with a said it will fight any proposed cuts, adding that the BBC sensible solution and I hope that the NUJ will eventually World Service is a “clear success story”. The cuts represent recognise that. a threat that we can ill afford to that vital service and to The BBC still has a lot to offer our country, not only jobs. We have to think of the BBC as a world employer through programmes such as “Strictly Come Dancing”, because it does not operate only in the UK. with a former Member of the House doing rather well, I am a passionate defender of the organisation and I but by continuing to provide excellent programmes of believe not only in retaining the licence fee but in which we can be genuinely proud and that are sold extending the BBC as a British institution. I have around the world through BBC Worldwide. The BBC experienced television in many countries, most notably now recognises that its role is not to go off and buy in the USA where freedom and open markets have things like the “Lonely Planet” guide, which it will not resulted in massively dumbed-down television and a do again, but to make use of the licence fee to subsidise race to the bottom, with programmes between adverts. programmes going forward. The quality of BBC broadcasting provides a high water mark for others to match and raises the bar of programme Ian Murray: The hon. Lady has mentioned examples quality. The BBC leads the world in quality, innovation of the BBC slimming down, to use her words. The BBC and impartiality. was already undertaking such a programme, and the comprehensive spending review settlement may have taken its eye off the ball. Will she comment on that? Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that the BBC is the envy of broadcasting Dr Coffey: I do not work there any more, so I cannot institutions the world over and that we parliamentarians, give a personal comment on that, but the settlement who are being broadcast live as we speak, should be concentrates the mind. I know that when I was there very proud of it? and we were talking in staff meetings, scenario planning was going on—for example, if there was a 20% cut, or a Graham Jones: My hon. Friend is quite right: the freeze—and there was genuine debate about what that BBC is the envy of the world and is a good business that would mean for the BBC in future. The settlement will we should promote. We should see it in that way rather force the board to think through what it is trying to than as a drain on public resources. It is one of the last achieve, what makes the BBC special, what it has to do great vestiges of British influence abroad. BBC online and what it is nice to do. I welcome that journey and BBC news provide the world with a British perspective because we also have to do in government—let us be and a brand that should be protected at all costs. A honest about it—when we are trying to ensure that we commercial, or part-commercially dependent, BBC would live within our means. 395 BBC Funding (CSR)10 NOVEMBER 2010 BBC Funding (CSR) 396

Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Will the hon. and director-general over the David Kelly and Andrew Lady give way? Gilligan affair, such conversions always ring ever so slightly hollow. That was the greatest crisis of BBC Dr Coffey: I can speak for only two minutes, so I will independence in living memory, so it is worth remembering carry on, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. that it is not always bad news with the Conservatives. The hon. Member for Edinburgh South asked what Other Governments have behaved very badly indeed the BBC licence fee would pay for in future. Let us towards the BBC, in my view. remember that a certain part of the licence fee was However, I want to put on the record this Government’s hypothecated for the digital switchover. The success of strong support for the BBC—a complete commitment various schemes has meant that that part of the licence to the independence of the corporation, which, as the fee now does not need to be used; it might be said that it hon. Member for Edinburgh South said, has formed the is being used only for broadband. However, YouView, cornerstone not only of public service broadcasting in which is coming, will be one of the game-changing this country, but of the success of our creative industries. things that the BBC delivers to this country, in conjunction I never tire of pointing out that many of our successful with its media partners, and broadband is required to independent production companies and, indeed, other deliver that. It is right that the BBC is involved in the companies in the creative industries are often filled with provision of broadband to the country. That is a rather people who received their training from the BBC. good use of the licence fee. The BBC is not set in aspic; it remains a dynamic and Given that I was an unexpected participant in the forward-looking organisation. Not only is it one of the debate tonight, I will not continue further. The BBC is most respected broadcasters in the world, but it continues safe in the Government’s hands through its relationship to innovate with the BBC iPlayer; YouView, a consortium with the Secretary of State. A large amount of reconciliation in which the corporation is the cornerstone partner; goes on between the World Service and the BBC to BBC Worldwide, which has taken the BBC all around make sure that each part does not subsidise the other. the globe; and even the pioneering archive and digital That is wasteful work, and those costs will not have to archive work being taken forward by Tony Ageh, which be borne any more, so they can go into protecting the we all admire. We also fully respect, of course, the overseas bureaux. There are opportunities for economies, BBC’s editorial and operational independence. and I know that the board is working hard on them. I am confident that the Government, with the Minister Graham Jones: Does the Minister approve of BBC and the Secretary of State, will continue to have a World Service television and its commercial success? fruitful partnership. I look forward to the next debate Does he think that it should be expanded as a business, when we discuss the future governance of the BBC. I or that the service should be reduced because it is not have been delighted to participate in the debate and I what the BBC is about? wish all my former colleagues at the BBC well. Mr Vaizey: BBC Worldwide, which has a superb chief 7.12 pm executive in John Smith, who really has transformed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, that organisation, occasionally causes controversy in Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Iam the House. Its business is to maximise the value of the grateful for the chance to respond to this important BBC’s assets, and it does so very well, but we in the debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh House and individual politicians take views, such as on South (Ian Murray) on securing it and on making such the purchase of Lonely Planet, and, as I shall say at the an eloquent speech setting out his views and support for end of my speech, the BBC Trust has made it clear that the BBC, as well as his concerns for its future. it wants the BBC to divest itself of its magazine business, I thank the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham because it is very important that it leaves room for Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk commercial operators to make a living in the media. Coastal (Dr Coffey) for their excellent contributions, One of the great ironies is that the BBC is so successful with the hon. Member for Hyndburn focusing on the that it can often easily squash its competition. importance and value to him of the BBC World Service, and my hon. Friend bringing to bear her experience as Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con) rose— an insider who has worked in the organisation. I was pleased to hear from a former BBC employee about her Graham Jones rose— confidence in the BBC’s ability to continue to move forward on the basis of the superb licence fee settlement. Mr Vaizey: I shall take an intervention from my hon. Friend, who has not yet spoken. Anas Sarwar: The Minister speaks of a superb settlement. The BBC is one of the largest employers in my constituency in Glasgow. Does he accept that as a result of the Charlie Elphicke: We have heard much about the decisions taken in the comprehensive spending review, excellence of the BBC, but does my hon. Friend agree there will be job losses in the city of Glasgow? that we should also pay tribute to the excellence of ITV and of BSkyB? They have outstandingly good output, Mr Vaizey: The BBC has already significantly slimmed too, and it is important to ensure that the BBC’s state down. Job losses or future jobs will be a matter for it. subsidy does not crowd them out. The debate has been suitably non-partisan. I hate to bring it down a level or two, but I am always pleased to Mr Vaizey: I absolutely accept my hon. Friend’s hear from Opposition Members about their conversion point, and I congratulate him on his excellent work to to supporters of the BBC. For those of us who remember try to secure the future of Dover port, working with the previous Government hounding out the BBC’s chairman Dame Vera Lynn, who broadcast her great songs that 397 BBC Funding (CSR)10 NOVEMBER 2010 BBC Funding (CSR) 398 lifted the morale of British troops during the second has agreed to play an active role in supporting new local world war via the BBC. I also pay tribute to the many television services through a partnership fund providing successful media companies that operate in the United capital costs of up to a total of £25 million in 2013-14 Kingdom. for up to 20 local TV services—city TV stations to The hon. Member for Edinburgh South was concerned provide truly local content rather than the regional about the speed of our negotiations. I was slightly content people have at the moment. The BBC will also surprised by that, because I read in his biography that commit to ongoing funding of up to £5 million per year he used to work for an organisation called 100mph Events. from 2014-15 to acquire content for use on its own I thought that he was a man who felt the need for speed, services from these new services. Should capital costs be but now he wants to be in the slow lane. A year-long required earlier, this will be facilitated by access to the negotiation of the licence fee would have taken the existing digital switchover underspend by mutual agreement. BBC’s eye off the ball in respect of running a successful media organisation, and there would have been a year Robert Halfon: Does my hon. Friend agree that this is of sniping from the BBC’s competitors, with people not just about the level of the licence fee but the fact calling into question the licence fee and so on. that licence fee payers have no real say over what goes on in the BBC, whether it is salaries, the make-up of the Graham Jones: The Minister and other Government BBC Trust, or the number of stations? The answer, Members have mentioned crowding out, but is it not the surely, is to democratise the licence fee by giving licence case that The Times and have a fee payers a vote. paid-for service that is beginning to wipe its face? If the BBC were impinging on the profits of the online print Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend is a pioneer in this industry, would The Times and The Sunday Times be House. He is already proposing and taking forward an able to wipe their face with that paid-for service? It internet bill of rights, which has enlivened the blogosphere, seems to be quite successful, and there does not seem to and he has radical proposals for the democratisation of be any evidence of crowding out. Does he accept that point? the BBC. Given his campaigning record, I will leave him to take those forward. Mr Vaizey: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman talks to The BBC World Service will now become part of the those at , as it is they who usually complain licence fee-funded BBC from 2014-15, but the BBC will about the BBC crowding them out. The Guardian website remain independent in all matters concerning the content remains free, and they claim that one of the difficulties of World Service output as regards times and the manner they are finding with monetising its website is the in which it is supplied and the management of its presence of the BBC. affairs. The BBC’s editorial guidelines, values and standards The agreed settlement that we reached with the BBC will be set by the BBC Trust and will continue to apply is a good deal for all parties that reflects the current to the BBC World Service. The BBC will continue, as economic environment. Most importantly, of course, it now, to set the objectives, priorities and targets for the is an excellent deal for licence fee payers, delivering a BBC World Service with the Foreign Secretary, and will freeze in cash terms in the £145.50 colour licence fee for obtain written approval from the Foreign Secretary for the next six years. I was interested to hear the hon. the opening or closure of any language service. The Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) suggest that BBC will also assume responsibility for funding BBC many of his constituents are writing in, wanting to pay Monitoring from 2013-14. more for the licence fee. I am not sure that that view is The hon. Gentleman asked about S4C. The BBC has held nationwide. undertaken to provide the majority of funding to the Welsh language service, S4C, from April 2013. We in the Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I am concerned Government remain absolutely committed to a strong that a freeze for four years in fact represents a year-on-year and independent Welsh language TV service, which was cut, particularly when inflation is predicted to rise much of course set up under the last Conservative Government. higher than was expected, and with VAT increases coming in as well. Does the Minister agree that more Charlie Elphicke: Opposition Members are arguing than the initial cuts will need to be made because of the for an increase in the licence fee. [Interruption.] They budget restrictions, but we will then face year-on-year are as far as I can tell—they say that they have received cuts in the BBC that reduce its services and its ability to representations to that effect. In my experience a lot of be the wonderful broadcaster that it currently is? older people, particularly those who get by on their pensions, have trouble affording the current licence fee. Mr Vaizey: As I say, the BBC will have to find Can anything more be done to help people in that savings; I shall come to that in a moment. It is important position, and should the BBC take a greater role in for Labour Members to make their position clear. If funding such help? they think that the BBC licence fee should be increased, they should say so, and they should state the level at Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend makes an interesting which they think it should be set. point in his forensic intervention, which secured an The current licence fee settlement remains at £145.50. immediate U-turn from Opposition Members on a licence It is important to remember that for the first year this fee increase. Perhaps he and I should talk later about was volunteered by the BBC and the BBC Trust, and it what further help can be given to the elderly, but I was likely to be volunteered for the second year, and would say that freezing the licence free is substantial then we negotiated a freeze for the four years after that recognition of people’s difficulty in paying it. until March 2017. Within that settlement, as the hon. The Government have put forward a new partnership Member for Edinburgh South pointed out, the BBC model between the BBC Trust and S4C as the best way 399 BBC Funding (CSR)10 NOVEMBER 2010 BBC Funding (CSR) 400

[Mr Vaizey] was best to get on with it rather than detain the BBC for a year in negotiating the licence fee. of securing the latter’s future. Under that model, funding We welcome the BBC’s plans to enhance its national for S4C will come from three sources in future: the DAB coverage, although we remain in discussions with licence fee, a continued subvention from the Government it about its obligations as regards local DAB. I hope and commercial income. The BBC will contribute that we can take forward developments on local DAB £76.3 million to S4C in 2013-14 and £76 million in coverage with the BBC and the commercial radio sector. 2014-15. The Government will contribute £6.7 million Outside the formal licence fee agreement, the BBC and £7 million respectively. The service will be operated has also made assurances to the Government about the by a joint management board, with a majority of scale and scope of its future activities in three areas. independent directors appointed by the BBC Trust. First, the BBC Trust has assured us that it considers it I am aware that I am running out of time, but I wish desirable to dispose substantially of BBC Worldwide’s briefly to mention broadband. The current ring-fenced magazine business. Secondly, the trust recognises the funding for digital switchover of approximately £133 million principle that the BBC should not launch services that per annum will be raised to, and capped at, £150 million are more local than its current offerings on radio, the per annum to fund broadband. It is important to say web and television, to give our local newspapers a that the switchover money was never part of the licence chance to survive and thrive. Thirdly, it has assured the fee funding for the BBC, so in effect the £150 million a Government that it will pursue a 25% reduction in the year broadband money simply continues an arrangement budget of BBC Online, which will please The Guardian. made under the last Government whereby part of the I hope that those assurances from the BBC will be licence fee is used for what could broadly be called viewed in a positive light by those who have expressed “digital switchover”. When one talks about the BBC concerns about its income—sorry, impact—on the market. taking on £344 million of extra liabilities, one is really That was a Freudian slip. talking about only £200 million. I end by reiterating the Government’s full commitment Graeme Morrice: The point that I was trying to make to the BBC’s independence. We regard it as a fantastic earlier was that I and other Members have received organisation and a beacon of excellence in Britain. I numerous representations from constituents expressing thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh South for securing concern about the freezing of the licence fee for the next the debate. In my opening remarks, I forgot to thank four years, because in effect it will mean a real-terms him especially for one of the reasons he will now remain cut. People are concerned about a reduction in the my favourite Labour MP—during his speech, he promoted quality of the service. The hon. Member for Harlow me from Under-Secretary to Secretary of State. For (Robert Halfon) made a point about democratisation. that I will always remain grateful. What consultation has there been with the licence fee Question put and agreed to. payer about that real-terms cut? Mr Vaizey: As I have said, we felt that there was a 7.29 pm meeting of minds between us and the BBC, and that it House adjourned. 75WH 10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 76WH

to broadband networks, investment in skills and business Westminster Hall support, and an adequate legal framework that strikes the right balance between promoting technology and Wednesday 10 November 2010 allowing market forces to work were vital for the industry to prosper. It was the Labour Government who developed the [MR MIKE WEIR in the Chair] framework that pushed Britain to become the fifth largest ICT market behind the United States, Japan, UK Software Industry China and Germany. However, I fear that the actions of Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting the coalition Government since the election will jeopardise be now adjourned.—(Angela Watkinson.) that. I hope that the Minister can alleviate some of my fears in his reply. 9.30 am Let us consider the record of the coalition Government Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) so far. Labour promised universal access to broadband (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship by 2012, but the coalition has scrapped that pledge. A for the first time, Mr Weir. I am grateful for the opportunity joint report by the Boston Consulting Group and Google to hold the debate. I take a keen interest in the UK showed that the internet economy in the UK represented software industry, and I am proud that Sunderland 7.2% of our gross domestic product, and that we led the Software City, which is a centre of excellence, covers my world in e-commerce, exporting nearly £3 for every constituency. £1 imported. The report also found that 250,000 jobs were dependent on the internet. The future of the I thank the Minister for coming to the Chamber to software industry in Sunderland will rely on the ability put the case for the Government—I am sure that we are to communicate digitally, and a strong broadband network all eager to hear what he has to say. I would like to is at the heart of that. It is estimated that it would cost extend to him and his colleagues an invitation to meet more than £500 million to bring superfast broadband to me after the debate to address any points that we might the north-east. Without it, creative industries could be unable fully to thrash out in the time available to us. move their business elsewhere. Will the Minister tell me The UK software sector has compound growth of his plans for broadband, particularly in the north-east? 5.6% and is now worth £100 billion to the UK economy— The coalition has announced a review of our intellectual almost as much as the financial services sector. The property laws with the aim of relaxing the rules, but industry benefits from low capital costs, and its products that could leave Britain’s intellectual property exposed are instantly exportable. Its technology can also make and unprotected. What assurances can the Minister non-software companies more efficient, further adding give me, as well as UK software and new media industries, to its worth to our economy. Figures from the UK’s that that will not happen? Technology Strategy Board show that 29% of the $3.4 trillion of worldwide spending on information and The Tories and Liberal Democrats previously committed communications technology in 2007 was spent on ICT to providing tax breaks to the computer games sector. I software. Such spending is expected to reach some know that many of my colleagues have spoken about £2.6 trillion in 2011. I am sure we can all agree that that in this Chamber and on the Floor of the House on Britain needs to be at the heart of that new wave of ICT many occasions, and that there are strong feelings about innovation and investment. it. I support their views on the need for tax breaks for The US is currently the world’s largest software market. the industry. The industry body states that, without We are all familiar with some of its major exports. We them, the UK will be at a disadvantage compared with all use Microsoft operating systems and office software foreign competitors. What is the coalition’s justification in our parliamentary offices, and I am sure that we all for reneging on that promise? know of the success of Apple’s iPhone and iPad. However, On education and training, instead of incentivising I am proud that behind that American muscle is British software development as a viable career, the coalition innovation. Specifically, the technology of Britain’s chip will increase tuition fees for students taking mathematics maker ARM Holdings—including firmware, which is a and ICT-related degrees, despite pledges to the contrary subset of software—is in 95% of the world’s mobile from some of coalition Members before the election. It handsets, including products such as the iPhone and has even cut the body tasked with buying computer BlackBerry, and in more than a quarter of all electronic equipment for schools. Will the Minister tell me how devices. children in this country can be expected to use ICT in The Labour Government left Britain in a good position the school environment and go on to become a future to become the world’s leading exporter of ICT software Steve Jobs, Paul Callaghan or Chris Curry without any and services. From the story of ARM, it is clear that co-ordinated approach on ICT provision? Britain has what it takes to compete in the global Support for the software industry is about not just market, as long as the Government provide the tools investment in business and education, but a whole and support that the industry requires. package of measures. Another consideration of businesses According to “Resilience amid turmoil: Benchmarking that I wish to draw to the Minister’s attention is the IT industry competitiveness 2009”, the Economist availability of conventional transportation: road and Intelligence Unit’s third annual study into information rail. He might not be aware that two large capital technology sector competitiveness, Britain was ranked transport projects in Sunderland—the central route and third for human capital in the world, and fourth for the strategic transport corridor—are in jeopardy. The support for the IT industry as a whole. However, I want success of those projects is vital for the north-east to Britain to do even better. The report found that access access the rest of the UK, but also for the UK to access 77WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 78WH

[Bridget Phillipson] North East, but its £6.5 million grant will run out in March 2011. I welcomed the Government’s announcement the north-east. Does the Minister agree that if we make last week of a £200 million fund to invest in high-tech the north-east as interconnected to the rest of the UK hubs. Will he support the use of part of that fund to as possible, we will have a more balanced economy? secure funding for Software City up to and including I wish to dedicate the concluding part of my speech 2015? to a success story: Sunderland’s developing software industry. Thanks to some remarkable people, Sunderland 9.39 am has more tech start-ups than any other region in the UK, with the exception of London. Almost 50 software Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): It is a pleasure to companies operate in Sunderland, and almost 300 across serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I congratulate the north-east, and the number grows every week. One the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South North East estimates that the annual size of the north-east’s (Bridget Phillipson) on having started an important new media, games and software industry is more than debate on an important theme. She will understand that £250 million. Sunderland city council’s business team I cannot comment on the situation in the north-east, so has opened the e-volve centre in my constituency, which I shall concentrate my remarks on the contentious issue provides start-ups with vital tools for their development of video games—that has been the matter of some such as office and server space, and a bespoke package parliamentary discussion—and on Government of advice and support. It also works with Sunderland procurement, which is an issue that interests me even university to offer internships to ICT students. It is vital more. that the region can offer highly skilled jobs to graduates, I am not especially interested in video games per se. particularly to allow our young people to remain in the I have not played them since the days when I had a area rather than feel that they have to move elsewhere, Commodore 64 and played a game called “Pesky Painter”, often after they have studied at our world-renowned which unfortunately I have not been able to obtain universities. since. If anyone listening to this debate has a copy, I The software industry provides an ideal opportunity would be pleased if they wrote to me so that I could for growth to provide the highly skilled jobs that the have access to the game again. Gaming is an addictive north-east needs to continue to attract investment and pursuit that takes up a lot of time, and someone who develop. However, that potential for growth and has other interests in IT—as I do—finds other things to development faces significant challenges. The coalition do. There is, however, an argument in favour of Government has cut One North East, the region’s hugely successful support. development agency, but let me tell the Minister what There are basically two extreme views on Government One North East achieved for the UK software sector support. One is that the Government should always and the region. support successful and/or sometimes failing industries, Fifth Generation Technologies, an Indian company and the other is that the Government should never that produces business intelligence tools for companies, interfere in the market. A friend of mine who is a came to Sunderland thanks to One North East. Codeworks, software engineer alleges that any IT company that a centre for digital innovation based in the north-east, needs Government investment ought not to be backed and DigitalCity, a successful and self-sustaining digital in the first place, because there is enough venture capital media, digital technology and creative supercluster based out there and IT is a progressive and successful market. on Teesside, are what they are today thanks to One I do not think that anyone seriously believes in either North East. of those extreme positions. People who do not believe The best example of the success of One North East, in state intervention at all are a bit like the people who however, is Sunderland Software City. This innovation do not believe in censorship at all. A case in which was developed in partnership with Sunderland city council, censorship was needed can always be cited, as can a case the university of Sunderland and private sector partners. in which the state needed to intervene. The arguments It inspires and supports the growth of the software usually centre on not the principle of state intervention, industry across the north-east, and makes the region the but the degree of it and the method used. I think location of choice for software businesses. everyone accepts, including the video games industry From a single, easily accessible point that local companies and all other branches of the software industry, that have found invaluable, Software City provides local there is a role for the Government in incentivising companies of all sizes, from the smallest start-up to economically useful behaviour. The video games industry firms with multimillion pound turnovers, with the support supports the continuing policy of research and development that they need to succeed. It helps companies to raise credits, and of such credits that are specifically aimed at capital and find investors and customers, provides one- smaller businesses, presumably smaller software houses to-one business and technical support, and helps with and the like. New starts are plentiful in the industry, and access to foreign markets such as India, China and the new starts can often become very big companies. US. More than 80% of participants in its student placement All the companies that we are talking about, including scheme have gone on to permanent jobs with the companies all those in the north-east, favour a sensible regime of to which they were assigned. Since Software City started business taxation. We can all talk about that, and about in 2008, it has helped almost 200 companies, including levels of corporation tax and the like. I guess that Test Factor, Raise a Tree, and Guroo, which has managed everyone nowadays accepts that tax incentives and breaks to get almost 500 clients in just two years. are better than direct subsidies, because they are a more I shall conclude by offering the Minister an opportunity effective way of encouraging winners and of getting the to recognise the software industry and to invest in the kind of behavioural impact that people want. I accept north-east. Software City was made possible by One that a tax incentive is a form of sectoral subsidy, as 79WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 80WH essentially an amount that is due is not being paid, but past that have crashed in the night—the IBMs, the the issue here seems to centre on whether a sectoral Lotus Notes and the strange fall and rise of the Mac. subsidy is, on the face of it, justifiable and necessary. It One need only consider what would have happened had has to be necessary to be justifiable. On the face of it, they put their money into floppy disc manufacture a there seems to be a pretty good case. I think we all few years ago, or into CD-ROM manufacture in the accept that the industry has huge potential. The hon. past five years. When someone puts money into the Lady laid out very well what kind of potential it can software industry or the IT industry more generally, offer, not only for the country as a whole but in areas of they do so at an appreciable risk. substantial deprivation. An area such as Sunderland is It cannot be in the long-term interest of the nation—of not necessarily associated, in the way that California is, all nations—to base national taxation, for any sector, with the IT industry, but the association is certainly on the lowest common denominator of international helpful to Sunderland. taxation. Although the video games industry has said a There is obviously a huge native skill-base in this lot about Canada, I would like to see what is happening country. I was surprised when, during the general election, in other areas where the software industry is also thriving individual constituents of mine e-mailed me to say that and is competitive with Canada. I shall not rehearse the they were very much involved in a video games or arguments that we could have about state aid and software business, and they made representations on protectionism. I do not understand, however—the Minister behalf of the industry. I was surprised at how many of can help me here—the argument presented by the them there were, and I was also surprised, in these days Chancellor for not giving tax relief to the video games of the internet, that they did not know one another very industry. He said that it could not be well targeted. I do well. I felt that after the election I could perform the not grasp that, and some evidence in the notes that have useful function of putting them all in touch with each been provided makes it less than clear what is being other. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana said, meant or agreed by the Treasury. Berger)—who has just arrived—is well aware that Liverpool has a burgeoning software industry involving a lot of small companies. We should support that industry Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): I think the emphatically, because it is very green, forward-looking Chancellor actually said that the tax breaks were poorly and progressive. targeted, rather than not well targeted. I have since had meetings with Ministers who have said that it is Government Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): policy no longer to target any industry for tax breaks. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we should introduce Does the hon. Gentleman have a view on that? some kind of domestic tax incentives and support not only to boost the industry, but so that we can compete on an equal playing field? Other countries across the Dr Pugh: The second answer that the hon. Gentleman world that produce software and video games have was provided with seems to possess greater clarity than additional incentives for the industry, in both research the first, because the first is, I guess, contestable. We can and development and in the wages of people who come have a long discussion about how we can and cannot from abroad. Because we do not, we have dropped from target breaks. A rational argument can quite decently sixth to fourth place in the world in video games production. be made that the software industry, given its potential We have so many people leaving the UK to go to other for the capital venture market, is a lower priority than countries, such as Canada, the United States— some other industries in a context of scarce resources; or it could be said that a break would be an unnecessary Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. I remind the fiscal discount. The Minister can perhaps explain later hon. Lady that interventions should be brief. exactly what is meant by the poverty of targeting in this case. Dr Pugh: I am not sure that the causal chain is as emphatic and clear-cut as the hon. Lady represents it, It is true that under our existing taxation policy some but later I shall come to the business of a level playing industries have failed, but even some of those mentioned field. in the notes we have been provided with have failed not It could be argued, could it not, that the indicators because of the taxation policy, but because other things for what the industry offers and its potential are so have gone wrong in the software development world good that the case for state investment is almost being and the product simply has not taken off. It is an undermined? If it is that good and there is that much intrinsically risky market, and the state ventures into it potential, why would the Government be needed? Why with some caution. should venture capital not be there; why would it not be Just to extend the debate, there are other things that there? I suppose there are some answers to those questions. we should be talking about. I do not think the Government’s It could be argued that this country’s financial sector is role in encouraging the software industry simply starts notoriously short term, which indeed it is. It is somewhat and finishes with tax breaks. They have a definite role in tax averse, and we have seen plenty evidence of companies education. The hon. Member for Houghton and preferring to go to places where the tax burden is less. Sunderland South underplayed the continuity of British The companies are certainly not patriotic and if they education between one Government and the next with have scope elsewhere in places such as Canada, they regard to developing the software engineers of the might well decide that they want to place their funds future. In that context, I have a general worry about there. how the curriculum shapes up. In the initial phases of There are other strong arguments against the state IT education, children were taught about programming getting too heavily involved in managing the industry. and so on, but a great deal of recent IT education is One is that the IT industry is notoriously volatile and simply about how to use applications. The people unpredictable. One only has to look at the giants of the who are going to produce the applications of the future 81WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 82WH

[Dr Pugh] Jim McGovern: Before the general election, the Conservative and Lib Dem spokesmen on this subject will not be the British: they will be Indian, Chinese and both said unequivocally that they would support tax possibly American. There is a decline in IT education in breaks for the video games industry. Why has that this country—or, rather, it is not what it could be. changed? On the Government’s role, there is a further aspect to consider. The Government are probably the biggest Dr Pugh: I am not party to the discussions that have customer for IT. Some 40% of all IT products, software led to that change. Clearly, there were opportunities for included, are ordered by Departments. Government previous Governments to do precisely that. procurement is extraordinarily difficult for small software The opportunities for the British software industry companies to work with, the process often being so are huge. The Government just need to make the right prolonged that they cannot sustain their interest in move. Some of the right moves are plain and obvious, applying for work, which the big companies ultimately and I hope they will make them. get. The Cabinet Office and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport should consider how that process 9.55 am operates. Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): I congratulate the Labour Members must forgive me for going in this hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South direction, but I have to say that huge software projects (Bridget Phillipson) on securing this debate. that were going to be embraced in the Building Schools for the Future programmes were, by and large, built by The Government have made a number of allowing the biggest players—the big American software announcements in the past weeks emphasising the firms—to engage with the process. Small British software importance of innovation to the UK economy.In particular, firms found it difficult to get on the British Educational I welcome the Prime Minister’s “Blueprint for Technology” Communications and Technology Agency list. I have and the specific measures set out to support technology- complained about BECTA in this Chamber in the past based innovation. The UK software industry is at the and I am glad that, as a result of my representations, it heart of such innovation, and none more so than the has been abolished. video games and interactive entertainment industry. The UK video games industry—the fastest-growing There is a close and unattractive relationship between creative industry in Britain—is one of the biggest in the big government and big IT. We are blessed with the world. More video games than ever before are being Connecting for Health project, with all its problems, played on an ever-growing range of platforms: consoles, ramifications and extra costs, largely because of close online, mobile phones and interactive TV, to name a connections and conversations between the previous few. One in three voters consider themselves gamers. Prime Minister and Bill Gates. There has been a slow My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Dr Pugh) commitment to interoperability, open standards and mentioned his preferred game; mine is “Command and open source in IT procurement in this country—particularly Conquer: Red Alert 2”. state and government IT procurement—all of which has effectively shut out the burgeoning British software A large part of the industry’s strength lies in its engineering companies and favoured the large players, development of original intellectual property. The UK including Microsoft and Oracle. video games industry excels in innovation and research and development. It is anticipated that the growth in I noted the Chancellor’s suggestion before the election—I mobile and online gaming in particular will provide am sure the Minister can comment on this—that by new opportunities for original IP development. Sussex adopting a more favourable position towards open source is home to a number of content creators and digital and open standards, the country would save £500 million. media companies, poised to play their part in the UK’s I have not seen that in the comprehensive spending economic recovery. In my constituency—Hove and review so far. I can provide the press releases if any hon. Portslade—and in the wider Brighton and Hove area, Member doubts it, but I am sure we would all want to companies such as Black Rock Studios, NCsoft, Eurogamer follow that up. That must surely be better than falling and Futurlab are meeting demand from a thriving for the trick, as has happened in the past, where we home and export market. receive memorandums of understanding and order shed- loads of products from big software houses abroad, Government support is needed to ensure that the UK simply because they give us the licenses at slightly less remains at the forefront of this thriving industry and to than the exorbitant prices they would charge a private ensure that it continues to grow. IP protection is crucial customer. in that regard. I am sure that I do not have to remind hon. Members of the importance of intellectual property The Government can do a huge amount in monitoring rights, particularly in the online space. I welcome, and I how taxation policy plays out. If there is a case, and hope other hon. Members do, the Government’s serious empirical evidence is produced, showing that commitment to IP and the Gowers report, and to the video games industry is deserting the UK purely off pursuing infringers through the Digital Economy Act the back of current taxation policy because the Government 2010, although it is not perfect in respect of the appeals are reluctant to follow through on some suggestions procedure. It is right that the Government continue this made prior to the election, they will need to look at good work, making the IP framework more conducive that. We cannot afford to stand by and let the industry to innovation. go, because that would be a serious loss to the country. As the Prime Minister reflected this week, IP is not We need to keep an open mind on fiscal measures and just about protecting the end result; it is also about what will work, and to take a hard, prolonged look at ensuring originality in creation. Will the hon. Lady join both our education— me in welcoming innovations in the video games sector 83WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 84WH that are allowing the UK to harness its talents and 10 am exploit its advantage? For example, the university of Abertay Dundee, is achieving great things with Government Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I rise to support. With support from the Department for Business, support the principle of this excellent debate secured by Innovation and Skills and from the European regional the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South development fund, Abertay university is establishing a (Bridget Phillipson). Let me provide a little context on video games centre of excellence and a prototyping why I have come to support the debate. At midnight on fund, allowing small games developers throughout the Monday, “Call of Duty: Black Ops” was launched as UK to apply for grants of up to £25,000 to support the the latest product in a series of the world’s best-selling development of fully working prototypes. computer game. More than 100 HMV stores were open, and queues of people were waiting to get hold of the game. About £1.5 million of sales were expected on the Jim McGovern: When will a member of the coalition first day, and worldwide sales are expected to exceed Government visit Abertay university? £1 billion, which will make it the best-selling computer game ever. It was my birthday on Friday, and I am hopeful that when I return from Westminster at the end The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, of the week, a copy of the game, along with “Football Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Vaizey): On 3 February. Manager 2011”, will be waiting for me. I must, however, confess that I am exceedingly average at both games. Jim McGovern: The Secretary of State for Scotland I have spoken to a lot of hon. Members about this has visited, but no Conservative Member has done so. debate, and the average level of knowledge about computer games among MPs is not fantastic. I have done a little research, and found that Positech Games has launched Mike Weatherley: I thank the Minister for his games called “Democracy” and “Democracy 2”, where intervention. there is the opportunity to be the Prime Minister. I am Commercialisation and project management support sure that the Leader of the Opposition will soon be will also be provided from Abertay’s business and computer ordering a copy. games experts, giving each successful applicant the best I have taken part in many debates in which we sought chance of establishing or developing a thriving business. to identify new markets to allow the UK economy to The spill-over effects into other areas are plain. For expand and diversify. The information and technology example, talented students and graduates will gain market is happening now. As has been mentioned, the important work experience opportunities on project worldwide ICT market is expected to reach $4.3 trillion teams, working in the same studio environment as computer in 2011. UK studios already generate global sales of games companies. Overall the project can be described £1.7 billion a year, with the UK market in the region of as a pipeline for the creation of new intellectual property £3.5 billion a year. It is essential that we are best placed and it is expected to stimulate the economy by attracting to benefit from that. private sector investment. Interestingly, the market is changing and in many Similarly, a partnership between Cardiff schools of ways it is going full circle. Although big budget games creative and cultural industries at the university of can cost around £25 million to develop and are therefore Glamorgan and Metropolitan university will dominated by the big players, many of the early software support companies holding creative IP in exploiting industries in the ’80s initially expanded from a bedroom that resource through identifying routes to market and industry to become the multi-million pound industries developing capacity. The DigiLab will ensure that games of today; for example, Codemasters, which was set up prototypes for further investment are generated, and in 1986 by Richard and David Darling. With iPads, that subsequent end products reach the key games iPhones and Facebook applications, once again, new publishers quickly to the benefit of participating companies players can enter the market. We should encourage and and sponsors. support that. My constituency can play a part in helping the UK to I call on hon. Members to support those and other benefit from that growing market. The head office of initiatives, which are providing crucial commercial and the Technology Strategy Board is based in Swindon, intellectual partnerships to spur innovation and sustain and I had the pleasure of meeting its chief executive a a sector that is at the heart of our economic recovery. I couple of weeks ago. Part of the company’s remit is to welcome recent announcements about the Government’s invest in stimulating business innovation in ICT, and its intention to establish technology and innovation centres primary role is to work with e-skills UK, professional and to use Intellectual Property Office savings to support societies, and research councils—many of which are based UK business, helping companies to develop new in Swindon—the Department for Business, Innovation technologies and offer advice in developing their intellectual and Skills and the Department for Education. Through property. I look forward to seeing how those projects its co-ordination, expertise and funding, the UK should, develop in the coming months. and can, fully benefit from that crucial market. Finally, the Government have signalled that they will I extend an invitation to the Minister to meet the consult business later this autumn on the taxation of IP, Technology Strategy Board. As an incentive, Swindon—in and the support that research and development tax its second role in the industry—is home to the Museum credits provide for innovation. That area is of vital of Computing, which I support. All hon. Members who importance to the software industry, and I urge my hon. have referred to computer games, or to their original Friends to engage with industry bodies such as the computers, can go and see those things proudly on Association for UK Interactive Entertainment, and provide display, and the museum would be delighted to welcome a framework for the industry to flourish. them. 85WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 86WH

10.3 am education—one of the most important subjects for our nation—will not be produced until after we have voted Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve on the cap, and that is a matter of profound concern. I under your chairmanship once more, Mr Weir, and to have always shown a great interest in this issue and, for have listened to the various hon. Members who have the benefit of the hon. Member for Southport (Dr Pugh), contributed to our debate about an extremely important I can say that it is one of two occasions when I voted industry for the United Kingdom. The ICT industry against the Labour Government. The matter goes to the has developed hugely over recent years. I remember that heart of whether the UK software industry succeeds in when I was a bright-eyed, bushy-tailed candidate in the future. 1997—I was one of the few Labour candidates to lose—we talked about giving computer internet access, Of all the countries that compete with us, we are as we then called it, to schools. Now, 13 years later, alone in cutting back on investment in higher education. much of that optimism and much of the commitment Teaching grants for most of the subjects that will lead made by the previous Government to putting schools to people studying IT at university will be removed. online and introducing computers into schools has been That cannot make us more competitive as a nation, realised. We easily forget the scale of the change that because it will make our students less knowledgeable. It has taken place in our schools as a result of investment is therefore necessary that we say that the removal of over the past 13 years. those teaching grants will have profound effects. There is no doubt that when the Labour party left In its 2008 “Developing the Future” report, Microsoft office, the British software industry was strong on the stressed explicitly the importance of industry placements national stage with 1.2 million people working in it to for students. When talking about the lower level of service the 22 million people throughout the UK who tuition fees, it stated: access IT and use computers every day in their work. “The introduction of tuition fees may have created a deterrent to students considering taking up a placement as they are likely to We must try to ensure the continuation of our competitive be more anxious to finish their studies as soon as possible in order advantage and knowledge base that has enabled the to repay their loans and avoid further debt.” success of the international UK computer industry. How much greater will that deterrent be as tuition fees Today, thousands of students are marching in London are set to triple? in response to the Government’s proposals for university That is not the only area of uncertainty created by tuition fees. That is relevant to today’s debate, because the present Government. Labour made a clear commitment over the past 13 years, there has been major investment to universal broadband by 2012, but it has been scrapped in higher education and an increase in the number of by the Tory-Lib Dem Government. That will create a students going to university. If one industry is knowledge- competitive disadvantage for many companies away based, it is the IT and software industry. Those students from the south-east of England and centres of population who went to university and were attracted by all the in general. It will inhibit the development of innovative games—of which hon. Members know much, and I small businesses, which are so evident in the software know very little—have grown our IT industry. Many industry. Even more serious is the uncertainty about the imaginative and successful small companies in the UK expansion of high-speed broadband services, which are have come out of universities. My fear is that as we go key to the development of software companies. We all forward, given that it is proposed that student tuition know that the £530 million docked from the licence fee fees will rise to £9,000 a year, many people similar to will be insufficient to pay for universal high-speed those who went to university over the past 13 years will broadband across the UK. Will the Minister please tell be discouraged from attending university and therefore us where the Government believe the money for that from going into an educational, innovative atmosphere will come from? that could lead them into that innovative industry. The Government have set their face against support Dr Pugh: The hon. Gentleman will recall that he for the video games industry by scrapping Labour’s voted for tuition fees in the last Parliament and I did games tax relief. We heard today that we need a clearer not. I say nothing about the current policy, but at the explanation of why the Government believe that that time I said that the introduction of tuition fees and step—it contradicts the Conservatives’ pre-election stance, top-up fees would reduce the number of people applying although we have come to expect that from the present to university. As a matter of empirical detail, I turned Government—should be taken. My hon. Friend the out to be wrong. There is an outside chance that, Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) has been regardless of the merits of this policy, the hon. Gentleman doggedly pursuing the matter for as long as I can could also turn out to be wrong, as I was. remember, but he is still to receive straight answers to the straight questions that he has been putting. Why is Ian Lucas: The hon. Gentleman is wrong to state that an industry that we know is successful and that is in a I voted in favour of tuition fees—I did not. I have very competitive environment not receiving the support always opposed tuition fees. There is a difference in from the Government that the Conservatives stated kind between the tuition fees introduced through legislation before the election that they would provide? in 2003-04 and the present position. The fees introduced Justin Tomlinson: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify in 2003-04 were supported by a generous bursary scheme whether it is still Opposition policy to support those tax that the Government put in place, which was the main incentives? If so, how would they be funded and where reason why the proposals went through. We now have a would that funding come from? situation in which fees of £9,000 a year are being proposed. Before the introduction of those fees, when Ian Lucas: Let me give the hon. Gentleman one Parliament will be asked to increase the cap to £9,000, example of what the Government whom he supports we will not have any discussion about the bursaries have chosen to do. They have chosen to reduce corporation that will be put in place. The White Paper on higher tax rates year by year, and they are paying for that by 87WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 88WH taking away tax incentives for industry to make capital software company—Google. Strangely, however, the hon. investment. The Labour party believes that that approach Gentleman did not refer to that. In particular, there was is wrong, because lower corporation tax has a huge an announcement of a review of the intellectual property effect on banks’ income, and the approach detrimentally system, which the Prime Minister himself said frustrated affects investment and manufacturing in this country. Google in this country. It is interesting that on the very We want to support investment and manufacturing in day the Prime Minister announced that there would be this country, so we favour tax incentives and relief for a review of intellectual property rights in the UK, investment made by business. That is the line that we are Google announced that it would be taking part in the taking. We took it in government, and we believe that it east London high-tech city project. is correct. Dr Pugh: We all need to be cautious about such Luciana Berger: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Red things, and I must add to that the fact that my right Book cites the amount involved in not introducing the hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister made some video games tax relief as £200 million, but that that significant announcements the other day at the event does not take into account the net benefit of introducing involving Microsoft. We all need to be wary about these a video games tax relief, which conservative estimates issues. have put at an additional £200 million? Ian Lucas: We do indeed, but the hon. Gentleman raised the issue initially—specifically in connection with Ian Lucas: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. That the Labour party and Labour Prime Ministers. I thought sounds like a good deal to me, so perhaps such an it only fair to illuminate the debate by highlighting the approach that should be followed. We have a successful announcements that were made only last week. industry. We should be encouraging it to prosper, not When examining issues such as intellectual property, taking away its advantages. which is extremely important and does need to be Last week, the Prime Minister made a speech about examined, we need to be conscious of not only freedom information technology. Interestingly, he chose to make of expression and access to information, which are of it in east London. I note that this debate was secured by course vital and needed to make our nation competitive, my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland but the rights of those who create original material, South (Bridget Phillipson). We want innovative companies who are often the small people in all this and do not throughout the UK—in England, including the north-east have access to Prime Ministers, and sometimes have of England, in Scotland, in Wales and in Northern difficulty gaining access to MPs. Their rights concerning Ireland. their intellectual property need to be retained. I shall My hon. Friend made the excellent point that the therefore be watching the review with great interest. It is north-east had one of the best regional development important that there is broad input into the review and I agencies in the country in One North East. She talked encourage anyone who has interest in this area to contribute. about Sunderland, its Software City and its computer We are at a positive stage for the UK software industry. city-approach. We all know about the success of the We have great talent, great innovation and great originality. investment levered into the UK from Nissan by One My contention is that much of that arises from the North East, working with Her Majesty’s Government. positive intellectual atmosphere that has been fostered That £400 million of investment came at a cost of generally in the UK, and specifically in our universities. £20 million. That is the type of work that has been I am worried that that atmosphere might disappear going on in the north-east to bring innovative new because of the environment in which we operate. companies and investors from abroad to the UK. Jim McGovern: I thank my hon. Friend for giving Unfortunately, One North East has gone and, as we way; I went to my usual seat in the Chamber over here, speak, Sunderland does not have a local enterprise so I seem to have split from the Opposition. partnership. On the subject of access to MPs, prior to the previous We heard the Prime Minister talk last week about a Labour Government’s March Budget statement, numerous fund of £200 million for new technology and innovation Ministers—the Chancellor, the Secretary of State for centres, so I would like some information from the Scotland, and Ministers from the Department for Business, Minister about the money. Is that sum separate from Innovation and Skills and the Department for Culture, the regional growth fund? If so, who will administer it Media and Sport—visited Abertay university. They saw and how does one access it? If part of the country, such for themselves just how important the industry was to as Sunderland, does not have a local enterprise partnership, Dundee and, on the back of that, the Chancellor announced how will it access finance from the fund? Is the fund a tax break for computer games. However, since the intended to be solely for the benefit of east London or is general election, there has been not one visit to Dundee. it a national fund? [Interruption.] The Minister chuckles, but it tells us something that the Prime Minister shuttles Mr Vaizey: Just the Secretary of State for Scotland. across to the east of London to make such an announcement instead of going, for example, to the Jim McGovern: Prior to the withdrawal of tax breaks north-east of England, which has many great industrial for the computer games industry, not one Minister stories to tell. visited Dundee. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) agree that that was unfair, at the I would also like to pick up the point that the hon. very least? Member for Southport made about Microsoft having a close relationship with the previous Prime Minister—or Ian Lucas: We all benefit from close contact with not was it the Prime Minister before? There was evidence in only our constituents but, for example, universities. I last week’s announcements of another close relationship am delighted that the Minister will be visiting the between a Prime Minister and a major multinational university in Aberdeen—[Interruption.] Dundee; I am 89WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 90WH

[Ian Lucas] I am grateful to some of the other hon. Members who have contributed to the debate. The hon. Member corrected. I am sure that he, like all of us, would benefit for Southport (Dr Pugh) made a thoughtful speech, from such a visit. It is important that we understand which was not partisan but reflected on many of the how different universities are from when some of us issues that affect the software industry. He effectively attended university. turned the debate, for a moment, into one on the video As I mentioned, another area about which I have games industry. Another point, which I shall return to, particular concern is high-speed broadband. I speak as and which I absolutely support him on, was his reflection a Member of Parliament for Wrexham and for Wales, that in schools children today are learning how to use and I am worried that uncertainty around the proposals applications rather than learning how to programme. for developing high-speed broadband, and indeed universal In fact, the hon. Gentleman might have shared with broadband before that, is leading to an atmosphere in me some of the anecdotal experiences of talking to which businesses away from the south-east of England some of our top games developers, many of whom will suffer a competitive disadvantage. In an area such learned their trade, as it were, on the BBC Acorn as software, that will be crucially important. computer in the ’80s. We simply do not have such access to the nuts and bolts of technology. One of the things Justin Tomlinson: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify that I want to work on, in a big society kind of way—I what speed he would classify as high-speed broadband? am one of those Ministers who fully understands what the big society is—is some sort of after-school club Ian Lucas: Speeds of 10 megabits-plus are commonly where children can sit down with developers and learn perceived as high speed, although figures of up to how to programme. I also took on board the hon. 50 megabits are valued in some areas of the computer Gentleman’s points about big IT and big government. industry. Those are the sorts of speed that I would like He will be well aware that many members of the new to see. The problem is that there are many parts of the Government, particularly the Chancellor, are keen country—rural areas, which are not normally represented supporters of open source software. The Government by Labour MPs—that do not as yet have even 2 megabits. are very focused on ensuring that small and medium-sized Under this Government, there is no commitment to enterprises get a fair share of the cake from the Government. ensure that individuals from these areas will receive I was pleased that the hon. Gentleman took a realistic such support for broadband services in the future. view about the fate of BECTA—we should not always YouView will be introduced into this environment focus on the quango as the be-all and end-all of next year and demand for broadband services will increase Government policy. I am sure that schools will continue as a result. This important area is at present below the to access excellent high-tech IT equipment for their radar—if I may mix all my metaphors and technological children, not least from RM plc, one of the foremost expressions—but it will become more evident in the educational technology providers in this country, based next year or so because of the expansion of such in my constituency, at Milton park in Didcot. services. If we are to maintain a broad-based industry It was good to hear the speech of my hon. Friend the across the country, it is important that we focus hard on Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley), whose soon-to-be this and also that we get some detail and certainty constituency I visited during the election. I am not sure about how the investment will be delivered right across whether I made a big impact; I suspect it was his hard the United Kingdom. work and dedication to his now constituents that secured him the seat. He has already made a name for himself in 10.24 am the House with his passionate support for the creative industries. He used to work in the film and music The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, industry. His focus is on piracy, to ensure that there is a Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Vaizey): I am grateful, balanced debate and that we remember that rights Mr Weir, to be serving under your chairmanship today, holders deserve to make money from their creations. I instead of serving with you on Committee as we were take on board his points about the R and D tax credits. yesterday, and will be again tomorrow. I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Member for I congratulate the hon. Member for Houghton and North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) in the Chamber, Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) on securing this having won his seat at the election. His remarks reflected important debate. May I give her one quick, straight the change of tone in the House on video games. When answer, which is that I would be delighted to meet her at I was an Opposition spokesman and talked about the a later date if she finds my speech unsatisfactory? I can importance of video games, the only Labour Member make a safe prediction that because I am a Minister and who would talk about video games was the right hon. she is member of the Opposition, my speech will almost Member for Leicester East (), who regularly certainly fall short in some respects of what she wishes. criticised them for their violence and their effects on I would also be only too delighted to visit Sunderland society—he alleged. It is good that my hon. Friends are and see some of the innovation and technology happening now standing up and saying proudly that they are in that city. The hon. Lady used her speech to highlight players of video games. brilliantly the sort of technology expertise that now exists in Sunderland. In fact, as pointed out, in the Jim McGovern: Does the Minister accept that “video north-east alone it is said that the software and IT games” is perhaps the wrong title for the subject? Anyone industry is worth something like £800 million; there are who has visited Abertay university would see that what almost 2,200 businesses, 27,000 people and companies are called video or computer games can be applied to such as 5G, which she mentioned, and, in other parts of construction, architecture or medical science. It is wrong the north-east, Sage, Reflections and Eutechnyx. Sunderland to say that “video games” just involve young lads sitting is a hub of high-tech industry. at a computer playing “APB” or “Grand Theft Auto”. 91WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 92WH

Mr Vaizey: Obviously, the software industry is far many of the fundamental shifts that we see in our wider than simply video games. We tend to call it the society and our economy—everything from how we video games industry in the vernacular, although some shop and access entertainment such as television and people call it the interactive entertainment industry. video to how we improve our transport networks and However, I have said consistently over many years that manage our scarce natural resources. In all those areas, what one loosely calls the video games industry is at the new software systems will be the key enabler and driver heart of a whole range of technologies in defence, of growth and innovation. As a result, the sector’s education, health and the wider creative industries, such importance extends far beyond its direct contribution as architecture. That is why it is so important to support to UK GDP and employment, vital though that is. The the core skills and companies in the industry. sector will be in the vanguard of our broader economic My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon renewal. invited me to meet the Technology Strategy Board. I The coalition Government are absolutely committed have done so. It is incredibly important to the debate to creating the right conditions to allow software and about the future of the software industry, as well as other UK technology companies to flourish. That means across a range of other areas. I am delighted that it is in responding to the sector’s distinct requirements to ensure Swindon, just down the road from my constituency; that the software businesses of tomorrow are nurtured indeed, several of its employees are constituents, so they today. Last week, the Prime Minister launched “Blueprint are clearly people of great judgment. Let me take this for Technology”, which clearly stated the Government’s opportunity to wish my hon. Friend a happy birthday ambition to make the UK the No. 1 place in the world for last Friday. to start and invest in a technology company, as well as Last but not least, I welcome to our Benches the hon. our ambition to be the most technology-friendly Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern). I cannot Government in the world. work out why he is sitting where he is, and I had better The hon. Member for Wrexham took huge exception tread carefully in making an analogy, but he resembles to the fact that the blueprint was launched in Shoreditch, one of those soldiers from the last war who was so not Sunderland, and I assure him that I will be writing dedicated to his craft in taking on the enemy that he dug to the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch deep, burrowed down, hid and covered himself in (Meg Hillier) to tell her that one of her party’s spokesmen camouflage. In coming to his usual seat, he is as yet deems her constituency unworthy of the prime ministerial unaware that the last war has concluded, victory has launch of a technology blueprint. The hon. Gentleman been declared and there is a new Government. Alternatively, gave no reason, but if he wants to clarify why he has a his choice might simply reflect the huge success of the downer on Shoreditch, he has only to intervene. coalition’s policies over the past six months, particularly pertaining to the software industry, to which I am about Ian Lucas: I would be delighted to intervene. I made to turn. it absolutely clear to the Minister, who clearly was not listening to my speech, that a commitment to the regions, Jim McGovern: Let me say in response that I might which is so important to the future of the software be the first, but I will certainly not be the last, to split industry across the UK, is lacking. I am sorry that Her this coalition. Majesty’s Government, and particularly the Prime Minister, have not, for example, put in place a local enterprise Mr Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman indicates that he is partnership in Sunderland, which is an extremely important simply acting as a buffer between Conservative and industrial city in the north-east, where one of the world’s Liberal Democrat members of the coalition. I wonder most important automotive companies is based. I was what other conflict spots we could send him to, given illustrating the fact that the Prime Minister’s priorities that he is doing such an excellent job this morning. appear to be focused on the south-east, which is where I have mentioned the huge importance and success of he launched the blueprint. the software industry in Sunderland. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) talked of the success of the Mr Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman might as well say UK software industry, and I heartily endorse what he that the fact that we are having this debate in Westminster said. More than 500,000 people work in it, and there are indicates that the Opposition’s priorities are focused on more than 100,000 enterprises, generating more than the south-east, rather than on Sunderland. It is slightly £39 billion of gross value added. The UK market for crass to rubbish the technology blueprint on the basis of software products and services is the largest in the where it was launched. It was launched in a Labour European Union and has sophisticated leading-edge constituency, and the Government were absolutely adamant consumers in sectors such as logistics and financial that it would be, to show our support for the Opposition. services. As a result, almost all the world’s major software As for the LEP, the hon. Gentleman well knows that businesses have a substantial presence in this country, individual local authorities and areas were invited to whether in research and development, logistics or sales bid for an LEP. Sunderland’s bid did not get through and marketing. the first phase, and it is now part of a wider bid for the The software industry is not immune to the pressures Tees valley. I am certain that it will be constructively being felt across the UK economy. In the longer term, listened to and will progress. The idea that the north-east globalisation will create additional pressures, as routine is somehow not getting LEPs is another complete myth; tasks and activities continue to be relocated to lower-cost indeed, the hon. Gentleman’s speech was full of myths, economies. However, there are also tremendous to which I will return from time to time in my remarks. opportunities for the sector, and I am certainly from the For example, if the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene school that sees the glass as half full, rather than half again, perhaps he could elaborate on his remark that empty. Innovative software technologies will underpin Google was rewarded for coming on board the east 93WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 94WH

[Mr Vaizey] The blueprint also announces a review of the intellectual property framework, to ensure that its design will support London project—along, I have to say, with important the growth of both new and existing businesses. That British companies such as Vodafone and BT—with a review is incredibly important, because it will focus on review of intellectual property. Is it his allegation that the needs of small and medium-sized enterprises. We there is some corrupt deal between Google and the want to give our full backing to the high-growth, innovative Government? If it is, he is free to intervene to make that companies of the future, whether they specialise in point. I notice that he is not going to. software or other disciplines. Part of preparing for the Software companies have said that their top priority future is looking critically at the frameworks that we is the ability to access the right skills in the right place at have in place to protect innovators. The review will the right time. Those skills range from specialist capabilities focus on identifying and dismantling barriers to growth in science and engineering through to practical know-how in the IP system, and will look at how the IP framework in systems maintenance. The relevant sector skills councils, could better support new business models as they develop. including e-skills UK—the sector skills council for business The third important element of our blueprint is the and information technology—are working closely with framework for supporting future technological innovation software employers and the Government. The aim is to in software and other disciplines. We are now pledged bring together the education system and workplace to establish a network of elite technology and innovation training to create the pool of skilled workers needed to centres, based on the model proposed by Hermann generate and exploit innovative technologies. It is important Hauser and James Dyson, to commercialise new and to note that the Government announced early in their emerging technologies in areas where there are large time in office the Livingstone-Hope review of skills for global market opportunities and a critical mass of the video games industry, which is progressing extremely existing UK capability.The recent comprehensive spending well and has generated enormous support from the review has provided £200 million of funding for the sector. It will no doubt complement the other review technology centres over the next four years. The network that I mentioned. will be overseen—in answer to the questions of the hon. The Government recognise that the software and Member for Wrexham—by the Technology Strategy technology sectors are globalised and highly mobile. We Board. Individual centres will operate with a high degree will therefore ensure that investors and entrepreneurs of autonomy, to give them the flexibility to respond to who want to operate in the UK can enter, while we are business needs and emerging opportunities, but the reducing the overall level of immigration to a manageable board will provide the overarching framework. level. That is why the technology blueprint introduces a Our vision for technology and innovation centres is new entrepreneur visa to make sure that someone with a that they should help industry sectors to exploit new great business idea who receives serious investment and emerging technologies, and bridge the gap between from a leading investor can base their business in the original research and technology commercialisation, UK. reducing some of the attendant risks to business. I am aware of the issue from my constituency where there are Ian Lucas indicated dissent. several high-tech companies that can benefit from spin-off research. Each idea appears to me to be potentially Mr Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. We world-changing, but the struggle they have to take that all know the Labour party’s record on talking about research to market and commercialise it cannot be immigration, and we have been only too interested to underestimated. The centres will support projects that see the leaflets that it was putting out during the election. businesses and universities often cannot undertake, or Our policy takes a slightly more sober and reasonable that they do not have sufficient incentive to undertake approach to what can sometimes be an emotive issue. on their own. They will help new technologies get to investment readiness so that they are a viable proposition for venture capital or other forms of investment, and Bridget Phillipson: The Minister may be aware that will help, we hope, to accelerate their journey to market. the Select Committee on Home Affairs, of which I am a member, gave careful consideration to the immigration We want to get the network up and running as soon cap. Some of the concerns that were raised, particularly as possible, so the Technology Strategy Board will work from ICT companies, were about how it would work closely with industry, stakeholders, and the Government and whether it would be a deterrent for business investment, to identify the priority sectors, the scale of initial investment particularly in relation to highly skilled jobs such as required and the governance structure for the network those in scientific industries. I know that the Minister is of centres by April 2011. I urge the hon. Member for making a party political point, but there are serious Houghton and Sunderland South and any other hon. issues for the Government to consider about the working Members who are interested in the issue to contact the of the cap and the impact that it may have on the UK board to discuss it. software industry. The Technology Strategy Board plays an important role in supporting the software sector. It already supports Mr Vaizey: I should love the hon. Lady to point out innovation among software-intensive firms in a number what party political point I made. I was simply setting of ways, either through sector-specific programmes or out our policy and the fact that we responded to the through cross-sector projects designed to deal with a concerns in question with an entrepreneur visa. I noted particular challenge, such as low carbon. It also backs that the hon. Member for Wrexham was shaking his the software sector via initiatives such as knowledge head. Clearly, he simply opposes the policy for the sake transfer partnerships. Several of the Technology Strategy of it, rather than considering what it does. Board’s programmes routinely invest in initiatives where 95WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 96WH more than 90% of the business activities are software- first election court for almost a century was called on related. That is true of its information technology the basis of Labour party leaflets in the general election. programme, as well as its creative industries, intelligent Sheer brass neck does not even begin to describe it. transport and network security programmes. In addition, This is a debate in which I have an opportunity to set the board has identified its recently formed digital out our policy on broadband in response to the comments programme as one of its five strategic priorities in the of the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland period ahead. In total, over the past year the board has South about its importance. That is what I intend to do. launched 13 software-intensive competitions for projects with a combined value of around £100 million, including As I said, we want the best superfast broadband in £50 million of private investment. Europe by 2015. We have secured the funding for it—£530 million to the end of the spending review, and a further Some other issues were raised, including broadband. £300 million after that. We have launched four super-fast Again, some myths were propagated by the Opposition. broadband pilot projects, in the highlands and islands, I think that we all agree that superfast broadband and Herefordshire, Cumbria and North Yorkshire, so that that kind of infrastructure is essential to the future of we can identify early lessons and work out how to the economy. However, I find it odd that the Opposition proceed in the most cost-effective way. We shall also seem to believe that we have reneged on a promise, or launch in more detail at the end of the year our policy that we do not share their view of its importance. The on broadband, setting out some of the nuts and bolts previous Government had a very poor ambition, which issues. We have made huge progress on regulatory issues, was simply to get universal broadband of 2 megabits at such as duct access for competitors to BT and the the end of 2012. They proposed to pay for that with a opportunity to roll out broadband on telegraph poles. telephone tax that would have hit some of the poorest in society, as well as being a disincentive. Justin Tomlinson: On new developments, are there Jim McGovern: Will the Minister give way? any thoughts about treating broadband in the same way as utilities such as gas, electricity and water? Having Ian Lucas: Will the Minister give way? been a councillor representing new developments that Mr Vaizey: I will take the intervention of the more have waited years for broadband access, I know that the senior Member first. introduction of that would be welcome.

Jim McGovern: On the subject of promises, prior to Mr Vaizey: That is certainly a very important element the general election, the Minister was quoted—I shall of the question. I hope that we shall shortly be able, have to paraphrase—as saying that his party unequivocally with the Department for Communities and Local supported tax breaks for the computer games industry. Government, to publish a code for developers, to ensure What has changed his and the Chancellor’s mind? that broadband is at the heart of their thinking. Mr Vaizey: As to promises, the hon. Gentleman’s party said in, I think, the 2001 election manifesto, that Ian Lucas: I want to correct the Minister simply on a they would not introduce tuition fees. So if the hon. point of fact. The change to 2-megabit broadband was Gentleman wants to accuse me of broken promises, to be funded out of the money that he is using from perhaps he should look to his own party’s huge record the BBC licence fee—money that was left over from of broken promises, not the least of which is leaving the the digital switchover. The telephone tax was for the British people with the biggest deficit in peacetime development of high-speed broadband. That was the history, having promised to end boom and bust. position, and if the Minister wishes to, he can read As I said, the telephone tax would have been a huge about it in “Digital Britain”. disincentive to investment. It would have hit small businesses and the poor—all for the paltry ambition of 2 megabits Mr Vaizey: I have read that report, and I am happy to universal broadband. stand corrected. We are in a similar position, except for the fact that the Government are not imposing a tax; we Ian Lucas: Will the Minister give way? plan to get superfast broadband to as many people as Mr Vaizey: Let me develop the policy. Then the hon. possible by 2015, while the Labour party remains stuck Gentleman can come in. He does not have a broadband in the slow lane at 2 megabits. policy, so perhaps he should listen to someone who I now tackle the thorny issue of video games and tax does. Then he can make his point—if I may set out our breaks. Again, I shall try to knock down a few of the policy. myths that have been propagated. To hear Labour Members speak, one would have thought that the land Ian Lucas: On a point of order, Mr Weir. Is it in order of milk and honey had arrived with the last Labour for a Minister to misrepresent the stated policy of Her Government. When I was Opposition spokesman, I Majesty’s Opposition and not to allow an intervention sometimes felt like a lone voice when talking about the so that he can be corrected about that? success of the video games industry over the last three or four years. However, I pay tribute to the hon. Member Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): It seems to me that that for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), who has been a is a matter for debate, not for the Chair. fantastic advocate of the video games industry. Mr Vaizey: Thank you, Mr Weir, for reminding the I remember that the Labour Government ruled out a hon. Gentleman that he has plenty of opportunities to video games tax break. When in opposition, we mentioned make his point. It is a bit rich for a Labour politician to competition from Canada, and were told that the talk about the misrepresentation of other parties’ policies, Government were going to refer the matter to the World given what we have seen in the news this week, after the Trade Organisation. However, a chance conversation 97WH UK Software Industry10 NOVEMBER 2010 UK Software Industry 98WH

[Mr Vaizey] I want to put in place a strategy for the video games industry—for example, so that it can access the regional with an insider revealed that that was a red herring. growth fund that we announced, and can take advantage When I tabled a parliamentary question about it, the of the numerous funds that I have discovered in the Government were forced to perform a U-turn and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Partly reveal that the reference to the WTO was an excuse for because of exchange rates, we are close to Canada, even inaction. Finally, they were converted to a video games without a tax break. One company that has invested in tax break. Canada showed me the numbers; without breaking At what point did that amazing conversion come? commercial confidentiality, I can say that there was a Was it at the beginning of a Parliament, when the difference of about 10 or 15% in costs per employee. Government had a strong majority and a lot of energy? However, as the hon. Member for Southport mentioned, No; it came with the last Budget of a discredited we have a fantastic skills base, and that is another Government who were about to lose an election. They important reason to invest here. knew that they would not have to implement that tax This has been a good-natured and good-humoured break—and it was not implemented. It was an extraordinary debate in which we have found a great deal of common U-turn; despite the comprehensive spending review of ground, huge support for the software industry and a October the year before, that decision would still have passion for the video games industry. There has been had to go to Brussels for approval. The sound of recognition of the pioneering role of the north-east and Labour MPs clambering on to bandwagons now that Sunderland in ensuring that the UK remains a world they have no public policy responsibility for the matter leader in this important industry.I set out our policies—the is quite extraordinary. technology blueprint, our plans for technology innovation centres and entrepreneur visas, and our plans to review intellectual property law. However, there is broader Jim McGovern: I resent the Minister’s comment that support, too. Labour Members are jumping on a bandwagon. I have supported the computer games industry in Dundee for I was disappointed to hear that it is now the Labour a number of years, and several Ministers have visited us. party’s policy to push up corporation tax. Under this Why did Ministers not visit Dundee prior to withdrawing Government, corporation tax will fall year on year; that the tax break? is an important point to make. We have also increased entrepreneurs’ relief for capital gains tax. Our tuition fees policy is progressive, and it will mean people paying Mr Vaizey: Dundee is an incredibly important part of back their debt when they are at a higher income level the video games sector in the UK. We have invested than applied under the Labour Government. We have £2 million in the university of Abertay to support video made significant progress to empower our universities. games, but video games do exist in other parts of the As the hon. Member for Southport pointed out, despite country, and it is not essential to visit Dundee to decide Labour’s U-turn on tuition fees the introduction of whether we should have a tax break. But I intend to tuition fees did not stop people wanting to go to university. visit because it is a pioneering area with a world-class I was privileged to be at the graduation of four university. I am raring to get up there. Indeed, given the apprentices at Culham Science Centre in the constituency austere times that we live in, I hope that the hon. of my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell). Gentleman will put me up for the night. It is a bit odd It is worth remembering that we have a fantastic Minister for Labour MPs to claim that if you cut them open, for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning in “video games tax relief” will be written on their hearts; this Government; he has put together a national the relief was a political ploy to win support from the apprenticeship policy, which is important for high-tech industry in the run-up to the election, and they knew industry. People leave school and go on to be apprentices, full well that they would not have to implement the and the four whom I met were formidable. As the head policy. of the Culham Science Centre said, they are as qualified Let us be clear about it: people want a video games as any graduate, but have been paid for four years and tax break because of the competition that we face from have no debt. Many will be going on to do higher Canada. A tax break is not a panacea; France has a tax degrees. They will be at the heart of a high-tech industry break, but we have a more successful video games in Culham. Thanks to that Minister, this Government, industry. Canada does not have a national tax break for unlike the last, have—at long last—a clear policy to video games. It has two strong regional Governments promote apprenticeships and skills, which are important who actively compete for the video games industry; to both the IT and software industries. they made that decision 10 or 15 years ago and they are I cannot read the face of the hon. Member for throwing money at the industry. They are handing over Houghton and Sunderland South, and I am not sure millions of dollars—there is nothing wrong with that—to whether I have allayed all her fears, but she seems to be tempt developers and publishers to base themselves in in a slightly happier mood than when the debate began. Canada, and that means salary holidays, rent holidays I am happy to sit down with her and talk through the and other kinds of support. issues at a later date, and to visit her in Sunderland. 99WH 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Local Enterprise Partnerships 100WH (South-West) Local Enterprise Partnerships It soon became clear that , as is so often the (South-West) case, wanted to go it alone—a move unfortunately endorsed by the Government for political purposes, much to the consternation of the Cornwall business 10.59 am community and business leaders in the rest of the Mr () (Lab): A more accurate peninsula. title for this debate than local economic partnerships in I have a number of questions for the Minister today. the south-west would be the absence or lack of local First, does he agree with me and the business community economic partnerships in the south-west. When the in the west country that local economic partnerships Government launched their flagship regional economic should have sufficient scale to add value and to have policy the week before last, most of the south-west was clout? Does he also agree that they should reflect real completely missing. Only Bristol and Cornwall are covered functional economic areas? Is it not the case that the by these new bodies. first of those objectives has been compromised by his This sorry saga began with the Government’s Government’s decision to accept Cornwall’s bid to go it ideologically driven determination to abolish the regional alone? Is it not also the case that the Cornwall bid did development agencies. That of the south-west, like most not meet the criteria the Government laid down and of those around the country, was successful. It had did not enjoy sufficient business support? Will he explain brought much-needed strategic coherence to our region, how, exactly, a Cornwall local economic partnership as well as valuable investment. It had managed to will differ from or add value to the economic development overcome the age-old political in-fighting between the functions of the unitary Cornwall county council? Does different parts of the region, and the RDA could take a he also agree with me that it is vital urgently to salvage view as to what was in the interests of the region as something from this sorry mess, and that the most a whole. I am afraid that, like so much of what the sensible solution would be for , including coalition Government are doing—and in spite of the and , to work with Somerset and, if they are Business Secretary’s support for RDAs before the election interested, those western parts of Dorset that look west —regardless of their merits RDAs had to go, because rather than east? Will he confirm that the Government they were a Labour creation. have been pressing such a solution? Soon after the election, in preparation for the new When questioned in the House on the day of the policy, the local business leaders in our half of the announcement, the Business Secretary blamed the situation region—led by Tim Jones and the Devon and Cornwall in the west country on the lack of agreement between business council—started an early promotion of the the local authorities involved. That, I am afraid, is an idea of a peninsular local economic partnership, comprising understatement. In spite of the fact that Devon, Somerset, Cornwall, Devon and Somerset. The business community Plymouth and Torbay are all Conservative-controlled felt scale and capacity were vital for these local economic councils, which one might think would make the process partnerships to succeed, and I wholeheartedly agree. In of negotiation easier, they have been fighting like rats in his letter of 29 June, the Secretary of State invited local a sack. We have seen a return to the worst sort of petty areas to come together and put forward bids for LEPs political in-fighting that blighted economic development in their areas by 6 September. That precipitated a so badly in our region in the past, and was one reason two-month period of chaotic negotiations, lobbying why Labour set up the RDAs in the first place. I and planning. That happened largely behind closed understand that there is little love lost between the doors and was led, not primarily by business, as was Conservative leaders and the councils involved. At one supposed to be the case, but by the upper-tier local stage, to illustrate the ludicrousness of the whole process, authorities—in our case, Cornwall, Devon, Plymouth Somerset became so frustrated by ’s and Torbay. Somerset county council was effectively behaviour that Somerset suggested a tie-up between it frozen out of those discussions. It was clear that the and Cumbria, based on the nuclear industry. four upper-tier authorities in Devon and Cornwall did Will the Minister please start banging some heads not want Somerset’s involvement in the discussions or together and tell his political friends in the south-west in any subsequent local economic partnership for the that they must stop their childish squabbling and work area. together in the interests of the public and local businesses? My own local authority, Exeter city council, and the If they cannot, or will not, do that, will he please tell Exeter business community, led by our chamber of them to get out of the way, and let the business community commerce, were totally excluded from the discussions. get on with it? Business leaders are keen to move They were never formally consulted on any of the forward with a partnership on the basis I have outlined. emerging proposals. That was in spite of numerous Anne Marie Morris () (Con): I am requests to be involved as one of the two key economic delighted that the right hon. Gentleman has given this drivers in our peninsula. Exeter’s exclusion was also debate an airing, because it is crucial that we have LEPs in clear contravention of an instruction in a letter of in the south-west. Would he agree with me that, in the 25 August from the Minister with responsibility for vein of what he has just said, we should put political decentralisation, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge divides aside and move forward and get an LEP for Wells (), to Gary Porter, chair of the district Devon, and I suspect for Somerset, as quickly as possible? council network, in which the Minister said, I believe the business community is now absolutely “It is essential that district authorities are included.” behind it. He went on to say that he did not expect county councils to act as “sole building blocks”, and that Mr Bradshaw: The hon. Lady is right; the business “We want to see economic geographies reflected in proposals, community is behind it. The point I was trying to make not just administrative ones.” is that this is not about putting political differences 101WH Local Enterprise Partnerships 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Local Enterprise Partnerships 102WH (South-West) (South-West) [Mr Bradshaw] and renewal in the south-west and throughout the whole country is an important issue that the Government take aside, because the four local authorities involved are all seriously. Indeed, it is one of our core priorities. As my Conservative-controlled. They do not—or should not—have Department—the Department for Business, Innovation political differences but they have been completely incapable and Skills—is the Department for growth, I am pleased of working together on a sensible local economic to be able to respond in that spirit. partnership for our region. I hope we can see them It is important to understand that as we manage make swift progress toward doing so now. If they will growth, and as we stimulate business to deliver the not do it, I want the Minister to tell the local authorities additional growth that we need to move from recession to get out of the way and leave the field clear for the to recovery and ultimately to prosperity, we take account business community, which, as the hon. Lady rightly of the economic profile of different parts of the country. says, is keen to make progress, so it can put in a bid. Will Contrary to what was at least suggested in the right the Minister confirm, on that basis, that the business hon. Gentleman’s remarks, this issue is not a matter of community is entitled to come forward with a bid—that disagreement among the coalition partners. The two it is perfectly possible for it to bypass the fractious local partners in the new coalition Government are both authorities? Will he assure the business community and committed to the principle of having a local, regional me today that the Government would look favourably and sub-regional structure to stimulate growth; we have on such a bid? Will he also reaffirm the instruction of been committed to that principle before and after the the Minister with responsibility for decentralisation: election. that it is essential that Exeter, which is so important for Local enterprise partnerships are a vital element in our region’s future prosperity, be included at the table? the broader reforms that we are implementing to create If I were the Minister here today, I would be hopping the new framework for local growth. They are underpinned mad at Devon’s deliberate and calculated rebuff to his by three important principles, which I shall outline at colleague’s instruction that Exeter should be included in the outset. The first principle is that the economic the process. geography of our country is not fixed, but changes as As the head of Britain’s leading business organisation, the character of the economy changes. It is widely the CBI, said recently, this process has been a shambles. understood that as economies advance, their needs—for We now know that the Minister’s own colleague, the example their skills needs—also advance. However, it is Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation not so often said that economies also become more and Skills, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford dynamic as they develop, and our prospects for growth (Mr Prisk), warned the Business Secretary in a letter of will depend on creating the right framework to facilitate 14 September that the Government’s local economic and stimulate that dynamism. partnerships were in danger of failing. I quote from his The second principle is that economic prospects can letter: be transformed when enterprise is free to innovate. That “There is a strong view amongst the business community that additional freedom is about creating the right conditions many LEPs lack the ambition to make significant economic impact undermining our agenda for growth. Key messages I have in which entrepreneurs, businesses and commerce can been made aware of include: a lack of credible business representation thrive. I think that it would be vulgar to make too many on LEPs Boards; negotiations dominated by local politics and a narrow party political points, but I am not sure that lack of a clear focus on economic growth. They also report even the greatest advocates of the last Government different messages coming from Government about LEPs. John would argue that they had created the right environment Cridland [of the CBI] specifically was concerned that the process for business to thrive. has not been transparent, business engagement was poor overall and exacerbated by a tight timescale. He and other senior business The third principle is that lasting economic renewal leaders from Tesco and Ford have expressed their concern that in requires civic and business leaders to feel empowered to their view the policy is in danger of failing to aid economic shape their own community and its economic interests. growth.” That principle has long been embedded in our assumptions That is exactly what the Labour party warned would about the role of local government. At district, unitary happen if the Government went ahead and abolished and county level, local government has long had an RDAs. The public and businesses of Devon and most economic purpose: to produce an economic development of the south-west have been badly let down by the strategy and to ensure that that strategy married with Government, and the Minister and the Government the wishes and desires of local business people, as well need to get a grip before it is too late. as those of the wider population, in the interests of the common good. 11.9 am I believe that private enterprise is the dynamo that will power our future prosperity and fuel the innovation The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong that will underpin our future global competitiveness. Learning (Mr John Hayes): It is a pleasure to speak on The White Paper on local economic growth, which was this subject and I congratulate the right hon. Member published on 28 October, sets out our detailed proposals, for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) on securing this debate. I as the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged. Those think that he and I first faced each other many years proposals are designed to promote economic development ago when he was fisheries Minister. In those days, he and spread economic opportunity right across the country, was in government and I was in opposition, but to the and they rest on four foundations. relief of fishermen, their friends and many other people, The first foundation is the strengthening of national the boot is now on the other foot. economic leadership for the activities that enable the I thank the right hon. Gentleman for drawing these UK to compete internationally: trade, inward investment important matters to the attention of the Chamber. and innovation. At the risk of digressing—I know that Creating the right framework for local economic growth you will not let me digress too much, Mr Weir—I also 103WH Local Enterprise Partnerships 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Local Enterprise Partnerships 104WH (South-West) (South-West) will add the issue of skills, which was referred to in the the locality and the Department. However, it is reasonable previous debate by the Under-Secretary of State for to say that we do not want any undue delay in establishing Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the parameters of each area, because to do so would the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey). Skills are critical create uncertainty. The right hon. Member for Exeter is for driving economic growth, because if an advanced right that we need to establish the parameters within economy is to become more dynamic, its skills needs which people are going to work clearly and reasonably also need to become more dynamic and advanced. That speedily so that we can then move forward to the next is why we are putting so much emphasis on skills, and I stage of development. I will therefore not give the hon. hope that I will be forgiven for repeating the fact that we Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) a definitive are making apprenticeships the pivot of our skills policy, answer now, but I think that he will understand the with substantial additional investment. Indeed, many emphasis that I have placed on dealing with the perfectly business people have written to the national press today proper intervention that he has just made. to celebrate that fact. Let me go on to talk a little about how we will assess The second foundation of our proposals is investing success, because I think that that issue relates directly to in crucial infrastructure such as broadband and high-speed the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. rail. As you know, Mr Weir, the Government have already said much about that. The third foundation is Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con) rose— establishing the regional growth fund to support jobs and growth, which is worth £1.4 billion over three years. Mr Hayes: Before I do so, however, I give way again. The fourth foundation of our proposals is to create local enterprise partnerships, which is the central issue Neil Carmichael: I would just like to make a couple of of this debate. However, before I deal with the specific points about LEPs. The first, of course, is that they matters on which the right hon. Gentleman understandably really should co-operate with each other. I would certainly concentrated, let me set out the case for local enterprise expect to see such co-operation when Gloucestershire’s partnerships before I say a little about their application relationship with Swindon—or some other relationship—is in the south-west. established, particularly in connection with the west of If we are to succeed in rebalancing the national England LEP, which is of course centred around Bristol. economy and kick-starting local economies, including My second point— in the areas that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, we need a framework that recognises the economic Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. Will the hon. geography of the country rather than one that is twisted Gentleman resume his seat? This debate is about the to fit arbitrary administrative structures. I think that I south-west. I think that Swindon might get into that can warmly support what the right hon. Gentleman region—my geography of southern England is perhaps said in that regard. I believe he said that the system a bit uncertain—but I think that the west of England should match “real” areas of economic growth and does not form part of the debate. economic interest rather than being an artificial construction. Neil Carmichael: May I just say that all Back Benchers The role of LEPs in those terms will be to build in the Chamber at the moment are south-west Members? genuine and effective partnerships of local business and I am; the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) civic leaders. Once again, I do not think that there is any is; the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) disagreement between us on that point. I have already is; and my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot mentioned the long-standing commitment of local (Anne Marie Morris) is. government to economic planning, and indeed to economic development. That idea is central to what I think is our Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): shared understanding of the role of these new LEPs. It I am from Yorkshire. is absolutely right that civic leaders who identify with their area, share an ambition to grow the local economy and believe in creating jobs, wealth and so on should Neil Carmichael: My hon. Friend is not from the play a part in ensuring that measures taken by Government south-west. Nevertheless, this is an important question, and other agencies match the priorities of their local because what happens in Cornwall or Somerset affects area. what happens in Bristol or Gloucestershire, because they are in the south-west and all under the one regional Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Given those development agency which, thankfully, will be abolished requirements, will the Minister tell us what the Government in 2012. consider should be included in the bid for an LEP, My second point is about the necessity for local including what requirements the bid for a Wiltshire authorities to co-operate with each other, specifically in LEP is yet to meet? Will he also explain to us the connection with economic development, and I think timetable for the announcement of further LEPs? that that point needs to be discussed in this debate.

Mr Hayes: The hon. Gentleman knows that I will not Mr Hayes: I am delighted to say that my hon. Friend go into details about a timetable because he also knows, is absolutely right that local authorities should co-operate given his interest in the particular matter to which he with each other in pursuit of that objective of economic refers, that that is very much under discussion. Indeed, development. We would expect them to co-operate, but representations that have been made in that area are the early stage will inevitably involve a process of negotiation being considered in detail by my Department. As he is and of bid and counter-bid. That is not unhealthy, probably aware, there is an ongoing discussion between provided that it does not delay progress unduly and 105WH Local Enterprise Partnerships 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Local Enterprise Partnerships 106WH (South-West) (South-West) [Mr Hayes] Cornwall would certainly argue that the area’s profile is very particular. The right hon. Gentleman will know Government play a helpful mediating role in assessing the economic challenges that face Cornwall. Its issues those representations against the core criteria, which I include skills, employment and the character of the am about to discuss. local economy, which legitimises the case that Cornwall We announced the first wave of successful LEPs made. alongside the White Paper on 28 October. The first 24 South-west Members, including the right hon. partnerships—of many more, I am sure—all shared Gentleman, understandably make the argument that certain characteristics. Perhaps it will help the hon. they do not want the south-west to be left behind. I Member for Chippenham and my hon. Friend the assure him that we are keen to see as many local Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) if I describe enterprise partnerships taking root as possible, both those characteristics: they have a strong local identity; across the whole of England and in the south-west. We they have a buy-in from the business community; and do not want any part of the country to be left behind, so they are a testament to the ambition and ingenuity of as soon as a bid can demonstrate that it meets the local people. That is what we expect of local enterprise assessment criteria, it will be given the green light. partnerships. I will say a word about Exeter in particular, as the In the south-west region, we received seven applications, right hon. Gentleman would expect me to do. I am two of which were approved. Each of the remaining five aware that he is worried that his constituency might groups of applicants has been asked to do further work suffer disadvantage and that it will not be able to bid to to develop their proposals, and we are supporting them the regional growth fund because it is not part of a as they do so. I understand why the right hon. Member partnership. Let me reassure him that although we for Exeter is making a strong case for his area—it is expect many LEPs to submit project bids to the fund, it right that he should do so—but he should know that is not a prerequisite that applications for funding must Devon, Plymouth and Torbay have been asked to hold be submitted by partnerships—any public-private further discussions with local business, civic leaders and partnership may apply. Exeter’s business community the Government to develop the long-term vision for and local council—along with other potential partners, their partnership. In addition, they have been asked to such as the city’s excellent university, which he and I consider in more detail their economic links with both know—may work together on an ambitious plan neighbours, particularly Somerset. The chief executives for economic development and then apply for funding of Devon, Torbay, Plymouth and Somerset have embraced accordingly. Indeed, I take this opportunity to encourage that feedback and are working together to secure the them to do so. I know that the right hon. Gentleman, as best outcome for their area, and we hope to say more in a diligent local Member, will work with them to make it due course. The right hon. Gentleman will also be a success. mindful that I have said that undue delay would be unhelpful. Mr Bradshaw: My concern was not simply that Exeter would not be able to access the funds; it was more about Anne Marie Morris: I am delighted to hear what the the whole process. Devon county council has deliberately Minister is saying. I am glad that progress is being excluded Exeter, for which it was criticised by the hon. made, and I welcome LEPs. They are absolutely the Gentleman’s ministerial colleague in the letter that I right vehicle, and the combination of local government quoted. Will he deliver a message to Devon today that and businesses is on point. I ask that a decision be made Exeter needs to be at the table? quickly—subject to all the bodies concerned giving him all the information that he needs—so that the deadline Mr Hayes: Although the right hon. Gentleman probably to apply to the regional growth fund is not missed. I did not know it, he was quoting a letter to the leader of hope that that will be present in his thinking and my district council, Councillor Gary Porter, who also timeline, even though he cannot be specific. holds national office. I know that Councillor Porter was anxious to ensure that district councils played their Mr Hayes: My hon. Friend, like me, will want to part. ensure that the criteria are applied robustly and consistently. The Government’s position is clear and resolute. We The right hon. Member for Exeter made the good point want local government to play a part. Local government that we need to be certain that the marriage between is, as I said earlier, district, unitary and county government. local authorities is right, as is the link between them and Circumstances will differ in different parts of the country, business. I repeat that I share the view that the construction and that encourages—indeed necessitates—different of areas should reflect their economic profile. That approaches. We do not take a vanilla-flavoured view seems fundamental to making the scheme work well. about what will emerge, although we are clear that the The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Cornwall, so I criteria must be met. The criteria should be consistent, will give him a straight answer. Cornwall made a powerful but the character of local partnerships might be different, argument for a local enterprise partnership covering given that the local economic profiles of various parts Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, making it clear that of the country differ. We want all partners to be involved. it was a functional area. The Department examined it As I think I have suggested, there is a degree of closely and we decided, in the end, to support the permissiveness about who may bid. partnership. I know that counter-arguments will be Given that enterprise, investment and innovation are made, but as he knows from his long experience as a the south-west’s route to lasting prosperity, as is the Minister, the Government sometimes have to take decisions. case in other parts of the country, we are clearing away We took that decision, and I think that we can justify it the panoply of failed quangos that we inherited and based on the criteria that I have outlined. People from replacing them with local enterprise partnerships as 107WH Local Enterprise Partnerships 10 NOVEMBER 2010 108WH (South-West) part of our new framework for economic growth and Science Research renewal. The new framework will recognise functioning local economies rather than imposing arbitrary boundaries. It will offer civic leadership and a genuine partnership [ANNETTE BROOKE in the Chair] between local businesses and councils instead of assuming that Whitehall knows best. It will be less about targets 2.30 pm and micro-management, and more about the inspirational (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): qualities of local businesses and local people. It will I am absolutely delighted to have secured today’s debate combine a strong voice for business with democratic on science research. The contents of my inbox show accountability to local people. It will also have the that Oxford West and Abingdon is a constituency that flexibility to respond to local economic priorities. surely must contain more STEM—science, technology, The Government are determined to make the next engineering and maths—researchers and science-based decade the most dynamic and entrepreneurial in Britain’s companies per square mile than any other, and it is a history. Britain’s future can be as great as its past, and great privilege to represent them today. My predecessor local enterprise partnerships have a vital role to play in was a great advocate for science and I aim to continue making our ambition a reality. his excellent work to the best of my ability. Although I am not a scientist, as the daughter of a 11.28 am very single-minded doctor, I spent many a breakfast Sitting suspended. time having the parasympathetic nervous system or the role of the white blood cell explained to me in great deal—Rice Krispies were never quite the same to my seven-year-old mind. Despite my father’s best efforts, I did not follow him into medicine, but he succeeded in instilling in me a deep respect for the value of science research—not only for the future of medicine, but for giving our industrial sector a competitive edge, for developing a greener transport system and a more advanced telecoms infrastructure, and for giving our troops the best intelligence and protection possible. Most importantly, my father taught me the intrinsic value of looking at the world as a problem solver and about the innate desire in all scientists to understand better how the world around us works. We must protect and strengthen that sense of curiosity. Perhaps speaking up for this issue today will make up just a little for my non-medical career path. Medic or not, I understood from the moment I was selected and had knocked on my first door as a candidate the value that my constituents place on science. As a candidate, I visited Begbroke science park with my right hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Willetts)—he is now the Minister for Universities and Science—where we glimpsed just the tip of the iceberg of the richness of STEM-based research and industry in Oxfordshire. Since then, I have had the opportunity to meet businesses such as Nexeon, which is developing next-generation lithium batteries. I have also met Professor Rawlings and some of his team to hear about the role that Oxford university’s astrophysics department is playing in the extraordinary square kilometre array project. In addition, I have visited the Joint European Torus at the Culham centre for fusion energy, where many of my constituents work. Just last week, I took part in the Royal Society’s MP-scientist pairing scheme, which does exactly what it says on the tin. The scheme was set up in 2001 to help build bridges between parliamentarians and some of the best science researchers in the UK by pairing MPs and scientists in an exchange programme. More than 200 MPs have taken part in the scheme including, I understand, the Minister himself. The pair spend one week in Westminster, during which the scientist has the opportunity to observe an MP in their natural habitat, while in the second week the politicos venture into the laboratories, so both scientists and politicians get a chance to walk for a week in the other man’s shoes. Such a scheme offers the hope of better networks between Westminster and the science community and 109WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 110WH

[Nicola Blackwood] To achieve that growth with the kind of investment we are able to make right now, we have to make absolutely aims to lead to more evidence-based decision making in sure that we spend the money in the best possible way. Parliament, more targeted lobbying from the science One of the key concerns raised with me is that the community, and far better communications between short-term funding models of our four or five-year both sides. Perhaps it might even tempt a few more Governments are naturally at odds with the more long-term scientists into Parliament. investment that is typically needed to reap significant When I participated in the scheme, I had the good results from STEM R and D. Moreover, the frequent fortune to be paired up with no less a luminary than changes of funding models and strategies undermine Professor David Wark, who is fellow of the Royal the stable growth in STEM fields. Our top priority, Society, a leading international authority on neutrino therefore, must be to outline as clearly as possible the physics and—along with his family—my constituent. I entire funding structure and the Government strategy obviously cannot speak for him but, so far, I have found for STEM, not only so that current researchers will be the experience extraordinarily eye opening. The on solid ground with their planning, but so that graduates Government’s statement on higher education, my meetings and students deciding on their career paths will know with Oxfam about the situation in southern Sudan and that the Government value them and that they have a my meetings with the Independent Police Complaints secure future in the UK. Commission on the challenges facing policing have all We are in an environment in which we risk losing our been reflected back to me through the prism of a best graduates to other countries’ facilities if we cannot particle physicist’s perspective. I have yet to find out assure them of our long-term commitment to funding what I will learn from accompanying Professor Wark to research programmes in the UK. Inward investors must his work at Rutherford Appleton laboratory, but I can be shown that this is a sector to which the Government only hope that, during that time, I will gain a deeper are fully committed, both through funding and by insight into how Government policy can better encourage creating a competitive and attractive R and D environment. and support science research and development in the UK. In that spirit, will the Minister clear up a few uncertainties One of the ways the Government can do that is, of that have remained following the spending review? Research course, is to keep funding science. Before the comprehensive councils’ capital expenditure has been excluded from spending review, my inbox was filled with e-mails from the science settlement. The total capital budget available science supporters who were deeply worried that the to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills cuts would fall especially hard on science. The Chancellor’s next year has been set at £1.8 billion and will fall to extremely welcome decision to freeze the science budget £1.1 billion the following year. However, it is not clear in cash terms at £4.6 billion a year was therefore a great how much of that will be made available for science and relief to many. I thank the Minister for the role I am research. As well as investment in bricks and mortar, sure he played in securing that commitment, but it still such as new labs, that capital spend supports the represents a cut of roughly 10% over four years. Even maintenance of existing facilities, training, and investment with the speculated savings, that will be a challenge for a in essential but non-tangible infrastructure, such as historically underfunded area. We also need to consider digital. A significant reduction in capital expenditure the announced reductions in university funding. Although funding will potentially lead to funds being diverted such reductions are sustainable, they do not represent away from research and into facilities maintenance. any real closing of the funding gap for major research The Science and Technology Facilities Council is the universities competing on an international stage, and research council that relies most heavily on capital that is cause for concern. expenditure. By way of background, it is worth nothing I am sure that the Minister is aware that UK scientific that it is also the research council that the previous research is among the best in the world. With just 1% of Government created in 2007 from the Particle Physics the global population, the UK produces 11.8% of the and Astronomy Research Council and the Council for world’s scientific citations, which are the most reliable the Central Laboratory of the Research Councils. That measure of academic excellence. The UK also has three merger was administered in such a ham-fisted way that of the world’s top 10 research universities, one of which it led to an almost catastrophic funding crisis in particle is, of course, in my constituency. All that has taken physics, nuclear physics and astronomy, which arose in place despite the comparatively low funding that UK part because the capital liabilities of the CCLRC meant science receives. In 2007, for example, Germany, the that funding for research had to be diverted into funding USA, and France spent 0.71%, 0.77% and 0.81% of expensive facilities. Today, those facilities—such as the their gross domestic product on public research and Diamond synchrotron and the ISIS neutron source in development, while the UK spent just 0.55%. the Minister’s constituency—are the responsibility of Clearly, UK science already does extraordinarily well the STFC, along with the experiments now running in with less, but just think what we could do if there were a CERN, the Institut Laue-Langevin and the SKA project level playing field. In the context of the current fiscal I mentioned earlier. In short, capital expenditure makes situation, increasing research and development spend up more than a sixth of the STFC’s entire expenditure. might not be immediately possible, but it is worth In case anyone listening thinks that spending on such noting that our competitors, such as Germany and the physics experiments is a luxury that can be forgone in US, are both increasing science funding in real terms. times of austerity, let me assure them that that is not the They recognise, as I believe the Government do, that case. The Wakeham review of physics found that 6.4% STEM funding is not a net loss to the country, but an of the UK’s GDP came from physics-based industry. A investment in the smarter, greener and more sustainable constituent recently sent me some excellent examples of growth that all hon. Members agree should be our the valuable real-world outcomes of research at the aspiration. ISIS neutron source. The ISIS has improved the medicine 111WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 112WH that is sprayed into new-born babies’ lungs to help them sustainable growth in the STEM sector, will the Minister breathe and has created a new technique to fix cleft give an insight into the Department’s strategy for the palates in babies. It is performing vital research that is role that regional growth funds and LEPs will play in needed to make hydrogen fuel cells market-ready so creating an internationally competitive environment for that they can play their role in solving the energy crisis. UK R and D and innovation? It also performed the majority of world research on Clarification of these funding questions will be valuable data storage and LCD screens more than 20 years ago, to the STEM community. If the Minister is unable to which led to innovations such as the iPod and the answer my entire shopping list of questions today, I modern laptop, which illustrates the role that physics know that he and his Department will be working hard plays in major industry. In addition, it studies why oil to clear them up as soon as possible. However, the fact companies’ pipes clog, which is a problem that leads to is that without a clear, long-term strategy that sets billions of pounds of losses for those companies and challenges and the direction for UK science, we will not the UK economy each year. achieve the stability and certainty that is needed to Despite the Government’s commitment to the Diamond attract inward investment and retain the brightest and synchrotron, which I know the Minister welcomed as best graduates in UK institutions. much as I did, he will recognise that there are many On the other side of the question about exactly how worried STEM researchers who are awaiting clarification much research funding will be available is the question on capital expenditure, because the ramifications go of exactly how the money will be allocated. Some well beyond just keeping up the buildings in which they scientists have expressed concern that if they are to work. We do not want to make the same errors that the receive research council funding, they will have to previous Government made and fail to attach sufficient demonstrate the short-term economic benefits of their significance to the availability of capital funding. work. I am perfectly sure that that is not the intention of In addition to capital spend, there is the issue of the any part of the Government or the research councils, funding that reaches STEM via the Technology Strategy and I know that the Minister for Universities and Board and R and D tax credits. So far, the Government Science has expressed his support for a dual funding have not announced plans for those funding routes. system based on scientific independence and excellence. While that uncertainty remains, companies cannot include However, over there has been some uncertainty over the such support for innovation on their balance sheets as past few years about the interpretation of the Haldane an incentive for investment. However, the Government principle, and I know that the Minister for Universities have announced that they will spend more than £200 and Science has recently announced that he will, in million over the next four years to establish a network consultation with the scientific community, develop a of technology innovation centres that will be overseen clearer statement on the principle. It would be helpful if by the Technology Strategy Board. I understand that the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation those centres will be based on the recommendations of and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage the Hauser and Dyson reports, which in turn were (Mr Vaizey), today reiterated the Government’s position loosely modelled on the German Fraunhofer centre on the role of pure research in our STEM strategy. networks. Given the prohibitive cost of such undertakings, Neither lasers nor MRI scanners would be saving lives it is unlikely that Government funding alone will be today were it not for the blue-sky research that began able to achieve that. The Government have said that their development into applied technologies. When they wish to encourage private investment, but so far determining exactly which streams of research receive they have not released a target for such investment or funding, we need a strategy to ensure that we do not explained how they intend to attain it. Will the Minister exclude the research that will lead to the vital discoveries go into further detail on that point? of tomorrow. My father would not forgive me if I did not take a Such a strategy cannot be achieved by DBIS alone. moment to mention the importance of world-class medical The key growth sectors of low-carbon technology, research. Charitable organisations contribute greatly to biotechnology, advanced manufacturing and electronics scientific inquiry in the UK. The recently announced will rely on a good supply of scientists, engineers and £50 million project on tumour profiling, which is funded technologies, and that goes far wider than the Department. jointly by the Medical Research Council and Cancer Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Does the hon. Research UK, is a great demonstration of the continuing Lady agree with me that, in relation to those future commitment of DBIS to supporting charity-based medical innovations, subjects beyond those that are traditionally research. I know that the Minister will be aware of the described as STEM are of critical importance, and that charity research support fund, which is a programme we need design and creativity, including the overall arts through which the Government support the infrastructure and humanities? Is she therefore concerned about the costs of charitably-funded pure research. However, for decision to withdraw state funding for teaching anything those in Oxford West and Abingdon and elsewhere other than science? We need interdisciplinary and whose hopes are pinned on the research coming out of multidisciplinary practice in our universities if we are to these projects, I hope that the Minister will clarify the pioneer the innovations of the future. Government’s plans for the future of that fund. The Government have also announced the introduction Nicola Blackwood: I thank the right hon. Gentleman of a £1.4 billion regional growth fund over three years. for his comments. As a musicologist, it is hard for me to Local enterprise partnerships will be able to make bids disagree, so I will be interested to hear the Minister’s to that fund, and they will have a role in supporting response to those points. regional R and D. As the Oxfordshire city region has To continue with my range across the Departments, deservedly won its bid to be an LEP, and because the Home Office must take a wider strategy into account Oxfordshire is well placed to lead as we seek to achieve when setting the permanent cap for tiers 1 and 2. We 113WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 114WH

[Nicola Blackwood] progress. Of course, UK Trade and Investment must also play its role in working effectively with UK STEM- all know that STEM research is a highly international based business to attract inward investment and advise and mobile field and that we need sufficient flexibility in innovative start-ups in how to leverage that crucial early our immigration system to enable the UK to recruit the years financing. The best research in the world will be brightest and best into key areas that the domestic work lost to the UK if start-ups and entrepreneurs do not get force cannot fill. That point has already been made by a the right advice to support such development at the number of groups, including the Home Affairs Committee, outset. of which I am a member, and I know that it is something I could continue my speech for some time, but I am of which the Minister for Immigration is well aware. aware that many Members would like to speak and I The role of the Department for Education is also think that I have made my point. The role of science in integral to creating an environment in which our young our society is not just a matter for DBIS. Science men and women are excited about pursuing careers in touches on so many parts of our society that it needs to science. I heard from dozens of constituents earlier in be on the agenda for all parts of the Government. Now the year about the need for more specialist physics that the Treasury, by protecting the science budget, has teachers, as a quarter of all schools for 11 to 16-year-olds sent the message that science research is a priority, we in England have no specialist physics teacher. A sixth of need to fill in the details and move to a cross-departmental those schools—more than 500 institutions—fail to send strategy that can create the long-term certainty that is a single pupil on to study physics A-level. It is important needed for sustainable growth and investment in STEM that our schools ensure that the invaluable subjects of research and development. UK science is already world science and maths are taken up and that students are class—the growth rate of the space sector is evidence given the support necessary to allow them to excel. enough of that. With a Parliament and a Government The Department for Education must ensure not only who are behind it, there are no limits to what it can that schools are able to achieve that—for example by achieve. offering triple science—but that the right careers and financial advice is available to both girls and boys. That 2.49 pm advice must give them the best possible options, whether Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I that is to pursue science degrees through an entirely congratulate the hon. Member for Oxford West and academic route, or to take up an apprenticeship, or Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) on securing this debate through a combination of the two. The Government’s and on making a splendid speech. There are two sentences commitment to offer 75,000 more apprenticeships is I would delete from it, and I would be happy to claim welcome, but it will improve student choices only if the the rest as my own. She was perhaps misled while eating right information gets to the right students at the right those Rice Krispies. It is a great pity, because there is a time and with the right funding support. The previous huge link between music and mathematics, and it is Government’s record on that count must stand as a always great to see more young women, in particular, warning that things can go wrong if the information coming into science and engineering. It is a pity that does not reach the students at the right time. perhaps she missed her vocation. We might attack her Even after education, we must consider how we support on other things as time goes on, but I congratulate researchers and scientists as they go into the work force, her now. and that is especially important for female scientists. On the hon. Lady’s general points, she was absolutely Although, according to Research Councils UK, the right about the importance of the Royal Society pairing number of women studying STEM subjects at scheme. It is a huge asset to the House because so few undergraduate level has increased at a greater rate than Members have had any experience of working in the that for their male counterparts over the past six years, science, technology, engineering and mathematics sector. the drop-off rate between qualification and employment I would encourage as many Members as possible to in science, engineering and technology is still higher for think about signing up for it next year, particularly women graduates. Of the 600,000 SET-qualified women colleagues who do not have a STEM background. The in the UK, 97,000 are inactive and 70% are employed scheme is hugely beneficial to us, and to the science elsewhere in the economy. Women still make up just community, who can see how we solve the problems 9.1% of the total SET work force in the private sector. that face us. Most barriers affect women and men, but they are Not the least of those problems is the challenge of often more decisive for women. After a break to take up the comprehensive spending review. I agree with the caring responsibilities, for example, women commonly hon. Lady: the Minister for Universities and Science did lose their place on the career ladder and are unable to a splendid job in arguing the case for the core science regain it. Women do not reach senior levels in the same budget. She was right to say, nevertheless, that there will proportions as men with the same qualifications. A be a 10% reduction over the four-year spending round. number of businesses, labs and institutions, including More important is a point on which I would press the many in my constituency, are making positive improvements Minister; in fact, I have pressed his colleagues on it in their workplace and trying to create viable career during successive Question Times—[Interruption.] paths through increasing flexible working, through fair, transparent and anonymous recruitment processes, by Annette Brooke (in the Chair): As Members can tell, offering parental leave, or quality part-time or job-share there is a Division in the House. The sitting will be roles, and with inclusive workplace cultures. suspended and will resume in about 15 minutes. Ten However, DBIS and the Government Equalities Office minutes will be added for any immediate subsequent can play a role by finding ways to support better practices Division. I was intending to call winding-up speakers at by employers and to provide better indicators to measure 20 minutes to 4, so if you add the time that we take out, 115WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 116WH you will be aware of when the winding-up speeches will about what is here already. We do need to learn, however, occur. Also, people need to be mindful of how many from what happens elsewhere in the world: for example, Members wish to speak. how it is that venture capital works better on the west coast of the States, and how it is that state involvement 2.51 pm in the Fraunhofers seems to help more longer-term Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. finance to emerge in the German market. Those are 3.2 pm hugely important issues. We need to learn from them, and we need to apply the British solution using tools On resuming— like that in our economy. The technology innovation Andrew Miller: Before I was rudely interrupted—not centres provide a way forward, but we should not go for through any fault of yours, Mrs Brooke—I was going a one-size-fits-all solution. Alternative models might on to draw something from the observations that the evolve, based on the structures that are already in place, hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon made in the public, private and not-for-profit sectors. about this being a cross-governmental issue. I have been I shall make one more remark on the CSR, which I trying, in a series of questions—three of which I raised know will get support from my colleagues from outside on 1, 2 and 3 November with different Ministers—to the golden triangle—apologies to my colleagues within find out what happened with the cross-departmental it. I welcome the four big capital projects in the CSR, as analysis of the impact of the whole comprehensive they are very important to UK science, but I hope that spending review. The CSR’s impacts on science will not Her Majesty’s Government will not forget that science only be seen in the block grants to the research councils; occurs right across the nation, outside the golden triangle. very serious impacts will be caused by any cuts that We must not forget the centres of excellence in universities might occur in departmental science spending, the details in the regions of this nation outside that area, for of which have yet to be announced. The Browne report—I example the Daresbury laboratory. say that loudly, given the noise of the students drumming away outside—also has an impact, as does, perhaps in a My final point stems from the privilege—it is a slightly more sensitive way, the migration cap, which is a privilege—I have as Chair of the Science and Technology cause for concern. All those items together need a Committee. Doors have been opened to me that I did cross-departmental analysis, so that we can be certain not know existed. Just yesterday I found myself sharing that none of them causes long-term damage to the a platform with Professor Brian Cox, which was a science base. I hope the Minister will be able to throw fantastic honour. We were addressing a group of engineers some light on that, because I am trying very hard to get in an innovation competition run by National Instruments, to the bottom of what analysis has occurred, and to and he made the point that the hon. Lady has just find out what contingency plans there are for any unforeseen made: that we ignore blue-skies thinking at our peril. effects of the impact of any of those items on another On the panel with me were a very successful entrepreneur, one. That is hugely important. someone from National Instruments and Professor Cox, and all four of us saw the link between the small I also want to comment on the hon. Lady’s remarks entrepreneur and blue-skies thinking. For goodness about education, which is a significant area for us. I sake, I hope that at no stage during this Parliament will appreciate that this goes well beyond the Minister’s anyone inside the Department for Business, Innovation brief, but we need to look deeply at how we incentivise and Skills or elsewhere start to make suggestions against young people to switch on to science. The hon. Lady blue-skies thinking, against the need to support some of went into music despite the efforts of her father. We the big science projects such as Rutherford Appleton, have to go right down to the core of how primary Daresbury, the space programme and CERN. education is taught, how we train our primary teachers and keep them up to date, and how we partner them Those hugely important projects have direct benefits with industry and academia to inspire them to pass on for some of our smaller companies, so let us make sure the exciting things that are happening in the world that we join up the needs of our business and academic today to the children around them. One of my favourite communities. Let us find ways further to inspire young examples, which happens to be led by a constituent of people to take up exciting careers in science and engineering mine, Professor Mike Bode, is the National Schools’ and to make sure that this Parliament goes down in Observatory. It is hugely disappointing how few primary history as the one that really sought—on a cross-party schools use that tool. It is there, it is free and it is hugely basis, I hope—to make a difference in this hugely important exciting, so we have to ask ourselves, “What is it that is field. frightening teachers?” It is not the curriculum, because There is no doubt that the success of our economy in the tool can be used in the context of the curriculum years to come will depend on our continual investment without any difficulty, but there must be problems and in science and engineering and in all the education we need to work with our colleagues in the Department programmes I have touched on. It is vital that Parliament for Education to find out what the underlying problem take the lead in ensuring that there is no diminution in is, and solve it. investment; in fact, investment should move in a positive The hon. Lady touched on technology innovation direction, and we should drive it up in the sectors we are centres, which are, in principle, a very important talking about. development. She was right that the development stemmed from Hermann Hauser’s report to the previous Government Several hon. Members rose— and James Dyson’s to the current one. Both those reports picked up on the same theme. As shorthand, a number of people have said that this is like lifting them Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. The winding-up out of the Fraunhofers and planting them in the UK, speeches will now commence at 3.51 pm unless we have but it cannot be that, because it would miss the point another Division. 117WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 118WH

3.11 pm possibly near you, depending on where in the country you are. We look at how we can advance in biotech, Dr Julian Huppert () (LD): It is a great cleantech, agritech and digital technologies, in which we pleasure to serve under you, Mrs Brooke. Before I start, really have the capacity to be world leading and to I should declare an interest as a member of the Institute change what happens over the next 40 years. of Physics and the Royal Society of Chemistry, as well as a Research Councils UK academic fellow, although I I do not, however, want to talk about all those issues. am on long-term leave. [Laughter.] This feels like the Instead, I want to pick up three key issues that feed into Floor of the House during Prime Minister’s questions our scientific research, and I apologise in advance if I earlier. I was, therefore, an academic scientist before I give them a slightly more academic than industrial fell in with a bad crowd and ended up here. slant. Those three issues are people, money and freedom. It is a great privilege to follow the hon. Member for We cannot do scientific research without good people Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), who is the or the right people. As we have heard, we have problems Chair of the Science and Technology Committee, and right at the beginning, at school. We have problems in the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola teaching STEM subjects, and the shortage of physics Blackwood), whom I congratulate on securing a debate teachers has been mentioned. Work is being done to on this important topic. As she commented, her predecessor, alleviate that; in fact, there are possibly too many Dr Evan Harris, was a great champion of science in different initiatives. I am delighted to be shadowed Parliament, and, in that respect, there is a lot of work to today by James Glover, from Mott MacDonald, who is do to replace him. an ambassador for the Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics Network. It is sheer coincidence that It is great that the hon. Lady gave such a well-researched he is here today, but STEMNET does a lot of work speech, which dealt with so many of the issues that are linking industry with schools to make sure that they are dear to the hearts of many scientists around the country. aware of what can be done, so that practicals become I would, however, take issue with her description of exciting, relevant and interesting, unlike some of the Oxford West and Abingdon as having the highest density staid practicals that many of us had to experience. of STEM researchers and science-based companies. We will have to measure that properly, because I suspect We have problems at school with people falling out of that Cambridge could do rather well, given that it is the STEM subjects. We possibly make people make decisions best university in the world, according to one recent about A-levels too early, and we lose them that way. We rating. then have problems at universities with the perceived I have experience in a number of areas of science, ease of STEM subjects and their relative attractiveness. which says a lot about how we can do interdisciplinary Increasingly, many courses are for four years, which science. I am a chemist, and I used to work on biology automatically makes them less attractive than three-year in a physics department. It is becoming much easier to courses, and Browne, if I can mention it—it has suddenly break through. If I have any issue with the idea of triple gone quiet outside—will make the problem worse. If science, it is with the idea that there are three separate fees go up to between £6,000 and £9,000, people will sciences. We need much more integration. think about what they should do. Will they do that fourth year, which is so necessary to have a full grounding I should also tell hon. Members that I set up a in a subject? I worry about. For the record, I do not spin-out company. If they are interested, I will tell them support increasing the fees, and I have campaigned later exactly what it was trying to do. against it for many years, since brought fees in. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Vaizey): Now. Mr Lammy: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Dr Huppert: We were aiming to make it easier to Dr Huppert: I was wondering whether I could tempt collect virgin female fruit flies, and I will explain later the right hon. Gentleman. exactly why we wanted to do that. Scientific research is extremely important. This country Mr Lammy: I want to add something on that specific has a proud history of scientific research. We have point, although I think that the hon. Gentleman will Newton, who was, of course, also a Member of Parliament, welcome what I have to say. The House will continue to Watson and Crick, a whole series of people based in have a big debate about the level of fees, and we are Cambridge and the fantastic glut of Nobel prizes that aware of what is going on outside. However, we have we won this year, although, in some cases, the work not discussed what student debt at the end of the involved was not based in Cambridge. undergraduate experience will do to domestic students As well as our history, however, there is also the issue who want to go on to postgraduate study. Is the hon. of our future. What is our economic future? What will Gentleman as concerned as I am that UK students will this country be doing in 2050? If we actually mean it be put off going into postgraduate study and engaging when we say that we want to rebalance our economy, in the innovation that we really need? science and high technology will surely be how we do that and where we go. I have been working on this issue Dr Huppert: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for with various people, and I draw hon. Members’ attention that comment. Indeed, that was my next point, so it was to an article that I have written with another new very helpful. We do have a problem. I used to teach Member of Parliament, the hon. Member for Mid students, and they were concerned about debt. We can Norfolk (George Freeman), about the appliance of discuss to what extent it is a debt and so forth, but they science. We discuss some of the issues and some of the were concerned. The issue of whether to go on to blocks, and the article is available in selected newspapers, relatively low-paid PhD positions is a real concern. 119WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 120WH

Furthermore, I welcome the fact that PhDs are changing because that is classified as work. We do not want to from being typically three years long—or at least paid stop that activity. I find it bizarre that the cap includes for for three years, although they normally overrun—to exemptions for elite sports people and ministers of four years long. Although that gives a more rounded religion, but not for doctors, scientists or engineers, experience by the end, however, it also means that who contribute much more to our economy. people are delaying serious earning potential for a lot Another issue is people—just as people. When I talk longer, and I worry about how that fits with the increase to representatives of high-tech companies around in debt. Cambridge, I find that many of their concerns are not There are issues about the quality of PhD programmes. just about the things we have discussed already. The No. I was recently told that one university has given out one 1 concern that people talk about in Cambridge is housing— PhD in the past seven years. Although I have not the cost of affordable housing there, by which I mean verified that figure, I would be concerned if we had affordable for science researchers, and not in the sense institutions that gave so few PhDs, because there would that was used in the rather ill-informed debate that we be questions about the quality of such qualifications. had in the House yesterday. People also talk about There is also a problem with availability in some subjects, transport problems and how to get where they want to and some very good students struggle to get positions go. They talk about the problems of finding good or funding. We therefore have problems attracting people education for their children, and the issues of the to do science-based PhDs. environment that they live in. Those issues affect scientists If those who go on through PhDs, having sacrificed and their choice to continue working in this country many years of earning potential, want to stay in academia, rather than moving elsewhere. they will look for a post-doctoral position, but we have Money, of course, is another factor, and scientists, a big bottleneck in terms of the availability of such like all people, are motivated by money. We had a freeze positions. Even if someone gets one, such positions on the total science budget, as has already been discussed— tend to involve very short contracts—two or three years the £4.6 billion. That is good news. It is not as good as it are typical. That causes problems getting money for the could be. Other countries, such as Germany, invest next position. It takes such a long time to find money more in their science funding. However, it is helpful, for the next job—I will come back to this later—that a and I thank the Deputy Prime Minister in particular for lot of postdocs do not have the freedom to focus on getting the last £200 million that came into the science their work. The fellowship schemes that exist are fantastic, budget on the Sunday night just before the comprehensive partly just because they allow postdocs to focus on their spending review. I share hon. Members’ concerns about work. lack of knowledge about the capital budget. A comment That uncertainty—that hopping from one short-term was also made about long-term security, and I have in contract to another—has real issues for gender balance. the past asked the Minister for Universities and Science We talked about the gender balance at earlier stages, but whether we can have at least a 10-year funding horizon, there is an issue at the post-doc level as well. Women in because science projects often take that long. general do not like this process, and it is a real disincentive There are also problems with the cycle of allocation for them. of money by research councils. I am well aware of the Once people finally make it through the post-doctoral Haldane principle and would not dream of telling research position, they may be fortunate enough to get one of councils how they should operate. They did not give me the few academic positions available. That will finally the grants I deserved and I am sure that they will complete the process, but the steps at every stage make continue not to give people the grants that they deserve it harder to attract and keep people. in future, but the real problem is the slow pace. An application goes in, and it takes six to nine months, So far I have talked only about domestic students. Of typically, to get a response. If people are on contracts of course we do not get all our scientists from Britain. We one to two years, that is a huge amount of time for them get a huge number from overseas, and that is essential. not to know the result. Success rates are phenomenally Science is a global activity. It does not make sense to say low. Academics apply for grant after grant, driving up that Britain should supply all the skills it needs for the number of applications that must be studied, and science. We cannot draw up barriers. I have been very filling up the system. There must be a way to run the concerned about the Government’s proposed immigration system faster and more efficiently. cap, and many hon. Members will know about concerns that have been expressed. The cap causes problems; it We need financial support from industry, and good makes it hard to get good quality people from outside. relations with it. Cambridge is fortunate because we There are many stories of people not coming, and have an excellent cluster. One of the features of that is others of people who have made it clear that they would to do, again, with people. People can work in industry not have come under such a system. Venki Ramakrishnan or academia and can move between them. Scientists are is one example. We have heard some instances already, often married to other scientists, so both partners can and I have heard of students not being given visas to have jobs in the same area, with the same level of come to Cambridge for a four-day conference, because security. We have a number of successful spin-outs. the UK Border Agency was not satisfied that there was Research and development tax credits were also mentioned. sufficient evidence that they would not require benefits They play a critical role in supporting industry systems. while they were here. Given that they had already paid Companies have highlighted that time and again as the fees for a four-day conference I think that it would essential. be safe to assume that they would have come to the I support the moves for greater procurement by small conference and then gone again. There is increasing and medium-sized enterprises. A detailed analysis by concern from the university of Cambridge that we entrepreneurs in Cambridge shows that if there is a cannot get PhD viva examiners from outside the EU, client when someone sets up a company, it works. It is 121WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 122WH

[Dr Huppert] than 50,000 students are protesting outside at the damage to be inflicted on higher education by the 80% cuts in much better to have a client. The success of silicon teaching grant and huge increases in student fees. I valley has been largely due to Government procurement particularly welcome and support the students from the with small start-up companies, really giving them the university of Oxford and Oxford Brookes university, initiative to go. However, the issue is not only public. I both of which have most of their students, and key think that Max Perutz was responsible for the excellent science facilities, in my constituency. Those include the comment: Oxford science area and the Oxford science park, although “We’ve got no money, so we’ve got to think.” of course the Begbroke science park is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon, [HON.MEMBERS: “It was Rutherford.”] I am grateful that so many hon. Members can correct me on that: my the Diamond synchrotron is in the Minister’s constituency thanks to them. The sentiment stands, none the less. It of Wantage, and the Culham science centre is in the is the freedom to think that makes a difference. We constituency of the hon. Member for Henley (John cannot predict which research will be world-shattering. Howell). There is a huge Oxfordshire-wide and cross-party We cannot say that lasers or the internet will be the interest in the health of scientific research. The work of thing that matters. DNA was first discovered in pus, scientists in our area is of global as well as national and was a curiosity. It was believed to be the way in importance, and makes a huge contribution to the which phosphate was stored by the body.It was completely economy, which is crucial to the competitiveness and uninteresting; and now it leads to all the advances in future prosperity of our country. genetics, health and biotechnology. We cannot predict It is to the credit of the Labour Government that such things, so we must allow academics the freedom to they were responsible for record investment in science. explore. There is a false split between pure and applied [Interruption.] I am pleased to hear the Minister applauding research, which I am very concerned about. Pure research that. The Government’s investment was amplified by often leaps into applications and I am very concerned the invaluable contribution of the Wellcome Trust, the about the increasing drive to impact. It does not make medical research charities and others. However, as the sense to ask people to estimate the economic impact of hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon pointed a piece of research. out, when we consider publicly funded science as a share of GDP it is not as though no more needs to be Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): done. I echo the call made by my hon. Friend the The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting speech. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) Does he agree with Professor Cox who said when he for us to pull together to do more. came to the previous Select Committee on Science and Given the context of massive and ill-judged public Technology that he found it impossible to know what to expenditure cuts, it is also right to recognise that the put when assessing impact? It is not do-able. Government have afforded science and research a measure of protection in the recent spending review. I know that Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. If I may intervene; that the higher education Minister fought for that, and I there are 25 minutes left, and at least three speakers thank him. I am sure that the Minister who is present before the winding-up speeches. today fought for it too, and if so I thank him too. I am not going to let them off the hook, however, given the Dr Huppert: I am about to finish, Mrs Brooke. I think real cuts, the big outstanding uncertainties still affecting that Professor Cox is to some extent right, and to some science funding and the challenging context in which extent wrong, because universities have begun to provide scientists will be working in the years ahead. the text to put in those boxes. I think that a form-filling I should like the Minister to answer a number of exercise is developing. questions. First, as we have heard, the cash freeze over I join in the support for the technology and innovation the next four years represents a 10% real cut. Although centres, whether they are Fraunhofer or Hauser models. welcome protection for medical research is provided, That will make a big difference in enabling us to do true there are worries that that could involve bigger real cuts translation that works. in other areas of science, such as physics and engineering. What is the position on that? We know what we need. We must make sure that we provide it, whether it is money, freedom or support for Secondly, the Science and Technology Facilities Council the people involved. I take the point that we should has already, as we have heard, had a tough three years look more broadly than just to the sciences. Humanities, and is not facing further cuts from a position of enormous classics and other subjects have a lot to provide. I have strength. It is not clear whether the commitments to one last request to the Minister. I have asked before improve STFC’s situation, made by Lord Drayson last whether the Treasury could have a chief scientific adviser January—to cover exchange rate fluctuations in the so that its staff could understand science. They say costs of international subscriptions—will be honoured they cannot see why they need one: that is exactly why by the coalition Government. It would help if the they do. Minister confirmed that that undertaking still stands. Thirdly, the severe cuts to the Minister’s capital budget 3.27 pm could, as we have heard, have a serious impact if they feed through directly to research council funding. Capital Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate is not just about new projects, which can of course be my neighbour, the hon. Member for Oxford West and delayed, albeit at some cost to our international research Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), on securing the debate, competitiveness. A significant proportion of the running and on her speech. Her timing is exquisite, whether by costs of facilities, for example, the routine replacement accident or design, as she has picked the day when more and upgrade of equipment, are classified as capital. 123WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 124WH

Almost a quarter of the running costs of the ISIS centre way that Oxford and other universities and research at Rutherford Appleton, which does cutting edge atomic institutes will be able to recruit all the people they need work advancing a range of physical, biological and to sustain their international standing? material sciences, are classed as capital costs. Cuts Science and successful business spin-offs do not just would reduce the amount of time that that vital facility need funding, research facilities and the best researchers; could operate each year. Can the Minister assure us that their staff—managerial and technical as well as scientists— such factors will be given sympathetic attention when need somewhere to live, a good environment, transport his Department makes its capital allocation? infrastructure and room for businesses to grow. However, Fourthly, what is the position on the overall budget of these things are all too likely to be a casualty of the the Technology Strategy Board over the spending period coalition Government’s decision to abandon all the and how much redirection of current funds will be evidence and careful consideration that went into the required to support the operation of the new the technology south-east and other regional plans and leave planning innovation centres that were recommended by the Hauser up to district councils. An example of the disastrous report. Obviously, if that amounted to a big sum—tens effect that this is having is that a significant housing of millions of pounds a year, or whatever, from a static development to the immediate south of Oxford, in the TSB budget—it would represent a significant cut in planning jurisdiction of South Oxfordshire district council, other important areas of its work, such as collaboration is now most unlikely to go ahead, given that nimbyism with business on knowledge transfer. Can the Minister seems to be that council’s principal planning policy. clarify that position? [Interruption.] The Minister may laugh, but if I recall As the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) correctly, he once famously told the Conservative party said, success for science research depends on more than conference that he was greatly in favour of additional the science budget, critical though that is. I should like housing in Oxfordshire, as long as it all went into my to mention a couple of other areas. Keeping up the high constituency, although it is not quite big enough to take quality of our science depends in no small part on the it all. I welcome the expansion of my constituency to quality of science teaching in our schools, as the hon. make room for the growth south of Grenoble road. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon said. In a Part of the development that I have mentioned was written parliamentary answer on 26 July, to my question an expansion of the Oxford science park, providing on incentives for physics graduates to enter teaching, exactly the sort of facilities that are needed to harness the Minister of State said: our scientific excellence to business success, jobs and “We are considering a scheme to repay the student loans of prosperity. Will the Minister consider that, bearing in science and mathematics teachers.”—[Official Report,26July mind his comments to the Conservative party conference, 2010; Vol. 514, c. 817W.] and chat about it with his colleagues in Department for Where has that consideration got to? It is clearly all the Communities and Local Government? more relevant, given the huge increases in fees that the Government are now imposing. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): The hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Gentleman has asked the Minister a number of Neston and the hon. Member for Cambridge mentioned questions—I agree pretty much with all of them—and I the immigration cap. I would like to press the Minister should like him to ask one on my behalf. For every on what representations he is making across Government leading research scientist there are dozens, if not hundreds on the real threat to our scientific excellence and standing and thousands, of lower-level lab technicians, who are posed by the coalition Government’s proposed annual just as important a part of our national science research limit on economic migration and changes to the visa base as those guys at the top. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman regime. Nearly a third of Oxford university’s academic will ask the Minister what he is doing to ensure that we teaching and research staff, and 46% of its research-only get 17 and 18-year-olds into science research, through staff, are from overseas. Although some of those people apprenticeships, further education and workplace training, are of European economic area origin, a lot of academic because these guys are just as important as the people at staff hold tier 1 highly skilled migrant programme visas, the top. more than 700 are work permit/tier 2 visa holders and sponsored researcher/tier 5 visa holders. As the vice- chancellor of Oxford university said in his evidence to Mr Smith: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, the Migration Advisory Committee: which I shall add to my list of questions. We will all be looking carefully at the announcement of the Government’s “Most of our current Tier 1 visa holders are in highly specialised research areas, and many are working in strategically important skills strategy next week to see what specific component subject areas such as engineering and technology, environmental it contains to address those important issues. science and the biosciences…It would be disastrous for international We can have higher, sustainable economic growth if relations and research programmes if we at Oxford were not able we really want it. But if we are to achieve it we need to continue to welcome overseas researchers at current levels under all tiers. This would seriously affect recruitment and retention more housing and better transport in places such as particularly in all the physical, bio and clinical sciences, and in Oxfordshire, across the south-east and in other regions technology, engineering and mathematics”. where science is so important, so that business can do I hope that the Minister is concerned about this as well. still more to make the most of the scientific excellence Can he assure me that, in view of the contribution that that we are investing in. their teaching and research make to knowledge, the Those are a few questions for the Minister to consider. economy and society in general, top internationally If he does not have time to answer them all this afternoon, mobile academics and researchers will be exempt from I should be grateful if he wrote to me. It is important, as the immigration limit or, at the very least, that the visa other hon. and right hon. Members said, that we keep and work permit regulations will be operated in such a up the pressure in the cause of science, which it is no 125WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 126WH

[Mr Andrew Smith] Council has a high dependency on capital funding. If we do not have clarity on that matter, there is the danger exaggeration to say is vital to the quality of life, living that we will see significant cuts in the general grant standards and our whole civilisation, now and for spend. Its dependence on capital is higher than that of generations to come. other councils. Annette Brooke (in the Chair): There are 12 minutes Although it is important that the Government look remaining. I wish to call two speakers—Gavin Barwell at the benefits of science—economically and to wider and David Mowat—and I call Gavin Barwell first. society—there is also a benefit to society from knowledge in its own right and from pure research that is designed 3.39 pm to extend the sphere of human knowledge. It is sometimes Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Thank you difficult to quantify that, and I appreciate that the for those clear instructions, Mrs Brooke. I will watch Government have to cost such matters. However, it is the clock carefully. I congratulate my hon. Friend the important to put on record the significance of knowledge Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola in its own right, which is often the primary motivation Blackwood) on her excellent opening speech, and all of scientists, rather than some putative economic return. hon. and right hon. Members who have spoken in this Let me echo the points that have been made about the high-quality debate. immigration cap. I am a strong supporter of the cap, I start by declaring a personal interest: I am a science and although my constituents feel strongly about graduate. I studied theoretical physics at Cambridge, immigration, they are not worried about leading scientists although I am ashamed to say that I have not used a coming into the country to drive our economy forward. great deal of that study since I graduated. However, I Their concern is about the numbers of people who have now have the opportunity to do so because I was been brought into the country and take jobs that should recently elected to the Science and Technology Committee. have gone to economically inactive British people who I am also taking part in the Royal Society pairing could have gone back to work during the last boom but scheme, and I echo the comments made by several hon. failed to do so. Their concern is not with people who Members about its importance. I am paired with Dr come in to create businesses, opportunities and jobs for Emily Nurse from the high energy physics group at other people, and I hope that the Government will be University college London. I represent a London sufficiently flexible on that issue. constituency, and while we have heard a great deal My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford West and about Oxford and Cambridge universities throughout Abingdon pointed out that these matters are not only the debate, London has Imperial college, UCL, and ones for the Department for Business, Innovation and other leading institutions. Skills, and I echo that sentiment. A number of members I have been asked to stick to time but, luckily, those of the Science and Technology Committee have spoken hon. Members who have spoken have covered many of about whether the Government office that deals with the points that I wished to make, so I can be relatively science would be better located in the Cabinet Office brief. There is political consensus about the need to because of the overarching role that science plays across diversify our economy, and one of the lessons we must Government activity. learn from what has happened over the past few years is I shall conclude with a point about education which, the need for a broader economy. One of the strengths of again, several hon. Members have touched on. I have UK plc is our scientific base. read a piece by Simon Schama about the teaching of My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford West and history in our schools. It contrasted children’s great Abingdon cited figures from “The Scientific Century”, fascination with detailed works such as “The Lord of which is an excellent report by the Royal Society. Let me the Rings” with our failure to make the story of our set out the full figures for the world: we have 1% of the history sufficiently interesting to children. The same is population; 7.9% of scientific papers; 11.8% of world true of science education. I have an eight-year-old son. citations; and just under 15% of the most highly-cited Any conversation with him quickly becomes a succession papers. This is an area of excellence, and we also have of “Why?” questions. He has complete fascination with the second strongest higher education sector in the the world around him and why it is as it is. As children world, after the USA, so we must build on that strength. get older, however, we somehow fail to maintain their Like other hon. Members, I am grateful for the work enthusiasm to find out about the natural world. carried out by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Developing that passion for science in the critical phase Universities and Science and the relative protection of of secondary education is a key area that the Government the science budget. I echo the points raised about the must look at. Science and Technology Facilities Council, and the I am conscious of the time and I know that my hon. issue of capital funding, which accounts for just more Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) than a third of its budget. wishes to speak. I end by congratulating my hon. Friend Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): It is good to see the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon on securing science supported and to ensure that science works with the debate and thanking other hon. Members who have business. Many business men have asked me how we taken part. can protect our patents and our value in an international sphere, so the Department for Business, Innovation and 3.44 pm Skills needs to think about that. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I thank my Gavin Barwell: My hon. Friend makes an important hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin point to which I am sure that the Minister will respond. Barwell) for giving me the chance to speak. I am one of My point is that the Science and Technology Facilities three hon. Members in the Chamber from Imperial 127WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 128WH college—I think that there are only three of us—so we I want to contrast the multidisciplinary model of the should get our retaliation in first—[Interruption.] My Daresbury campus with some of the ideas that have hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) is come out of the Hauser review. That is more about one of them. excellence, with the Government picking areas in which I wish to talk about the application of science. We they want to invest and going for it. I am not against have heard a lot about pure research and so on, but that, but there are two models to determine how we when we think about the economy over the next 20 or invest in science and applied science. One is what could 30 years, and the fact that we can no longer rely on the be called, “Let’s pick a winner and go for it,” and the City and to the extent that we have over other is, “Let 1,000 flowers bloom. Let’s try lots of the past two decades, we must ask where the innovation things. Some of them will be brilliant and some of them will come from. With respect to the right hon. Member won’t.” for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) and the large contribution My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge made by arts graduates, that innovation will, to a great (Dr Huppert) pointed out that silicon valley was created extent, come from science. by Government procurement, but I do not think that My constituency, like many in the north-west, will that is true. I think that it was created by innovation, lose around 2,000 public sector jobs over the lifetime of entrepreneurship, encouragement and the linkage of this Parliament. The Office for Budget Responsibility money to brilliant technologists. has forecast that it will gain 5,000 private sector jobs. I do not wish to overrun my time, but I have two All north-west Members, and those more widely, must minutes left and a couple of concerns to raise, to which think about where those jobs will come from and what I shall be interested to hear my hon. Friend the Minister’s we can do to help their creation. response. I welcome the local enterprise partnerships as Hon. Members have mentioned silicon valley, and it a way forward. There is a risk, however, that they will be is interesting to note that companies such as Microsoft, quite fragmented in a way that the regional development Google, Yahoo!, Dell, Apple and eBay, and their supply agencies were not and other things are not. I recently chains, have probably generated in excess of 1 million had a ridiculous conversation with a colleague who said jobs over the past two decades. For the most part, those to me, “Which LEP is Daresbury going to be in?” That companies did not exist 30 years ago. In 20 or 30 years’ is not the right way for us to think about how we do all time, there will be another list that people will talk this, and if we let that mindset grow, it will be quite a about. I do not know what companies will be on it—if I dangerous. did, I would probably not be in the Chamber—but they I mentioned the Hauser review and technology and will come from innovation and science. We must do innovation centres. It is not clear to me how they will what we can towards achieving that. interact with what we call regional growth hubs—or at On the border of my constituency is a place called least there is a lot of language in this area that seems to Daresbury. We have heard something of the golden be quite loose—so I would welcome input on that. triangle, which makes me feel a bit outnumbered, but With regard to the success of Daresbury, I have a bit Daresbury is a fantastic place that, together with Harwell, of concern about the way in which the Science and is one of two SFTC locations in the UK. Daresbury is a Technology Facilities Council funding goes between little different from Harwell because it focuses strongly Daresbury and Harwell. I am not an expert in how that on innovation as well as on pure science. There is also works, but I think that nearly all the members of the pure science, however, and Daresbury has a fourth- board of the STFC are Harwell-based, not Daresbury- generation accelerator—a lot of the design work on the based. We must be careful that we do not have a Diamond synchrotron was carried out there. However, south-centric civil service and a south-centric triangle the distinctive thing about Daresbury—if the Minister driving science in a way that we do not want. has not seen it, he should come and visit—is that there You will be pleased to hear that I shall stop speaking are about 100 small companies that are growing, taking shortly, Mrs Brooke. I just want to reiterate that this has output from the universities and turning that into been a good and positive debate, principally because it commercial exploitation. On average, those organisations has not been party political. We have much more in have grown by 20% over each of the past two years. common with one another—especially those of us who That has happened through the recession, so it is quite a went to Imperial college—than party politics allows, thing. A 36,000 square feet extension is being built and and it is extremely important to us all and to our is already nearly full. There is a significant chance that children that we get this right. 10,000 jobs will be created by those 100 companies and the public-private partnership that is being put into place. 3.51 pm Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I Andrew Miller: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that congratulate the hon. Member for Oxford West and those 100 or so tiny companies are in Daresbury as a Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) on securing a debate on result of the magnet provided by the research facility? such an important subject and on the excellence of her They would not have come there on their own; this is speech. As one of those STEM-qualified women who part of the integration between very small and very are no longer working directly in STEM, I was very large companies that I was speaking about. impressed by the breadth and depth of her analysis, even if I do not agree with every one of her conclusions. David Mowat: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Her constituency certainly has an excellent advocate. key term is multidisciplinary. Those companies interact Oxford West and Abingdon is home to excellent with each other, and the pure science laboratory, which science research, as are many of our great university was there in the first place, has been the driver. towns: London, Manchester, Cambridge, Liverpool, 129WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 130WH

[Chi Onwurah] In July, the Royal Society said that “severe cuts of 10% or more in cash terms...threaten to devastate Bristol, Southampton, Edinburgh and, of course, my British science, impair the future growth of the economy and own constituency of Newcastle, to name but a few. derail the UK’s ability to govern effectively and tackle global However, it is clear from the speeches and interventions challenges. Regaining our scientific pre-eminence, with all the made today that hon. Members on both sides of the economic and social benefits that this brings, would be impossible Chamber have concerns that go wider than the science or cripplingly expensive for future generations.” research carried out in their constituencies. Although the upgrade of the Diamond Light Source I am sure that even if his colleagues in BIS had not synchrotron in the Minister’s constituency has been been in China or otherwise engaged, the Culture Minister secured, the rest of the capital budget, as has been would still have been eager to come to this debate and pointed out, has not been safeguarded. Nature reports set out the Government’s policies on science research. that the research councils have been warned to expect at That is recognition of the hugely important role that least a 30% cut in their capital funding. Hon. Members science plays in our society. From the sharpened stone have pointed out that as a result of those capital cuts, to the mobile phone, scientific developments have changed the Science and Technology Facilities Council, which society and brought new opportunities. Indeed, I am funds the Rutherford Appleton laboratory in the sure that if decent research grants had been available in constituency of the hon. Member for Oxford West and prehistory, it would not have taken 2 million years to go Abingdon— from sharpened stones to the stone axe. Equally, the Egyptian pyramids would not have required quite so Mr Vaizey: It’s in mine. much slave labour—the wheel could have taken a bit more of the strain. Chi Onwurah: I apologise. The STFC, which funds that laboratory in the Minister’s constituency, is likely To take an example closer to our own day and age, to be hit as the bulk of its budget is capital. High-tech the mobile phone—we all have one—is a result of European partnership projects such as JET—the Joint decades of public sector defence research into wireless European Torus at the Culham centre for fusion energy transmissions; billions of private sector investment in R in neighbouring Henley—are funded through the capital and D, infrastructure and commercialisation; academic budget. They will need to find extra money to cover research into cutting-edge modulation techniques; and inflation. That might result in UK researchers having to Government-led access to spectrum and global protocol cut usage while still paying high fixed costs, or to cut standardisation. The result is a technology that enables other areas. As the Royal Society says, that would a farmer in Kenya to know the market price of corn on dramatically reduce the efficiency of our investment. the Chicago stock exchange, and ensures that information about voting irregularities in Burma or Iran can be Overall, there could be far-reaching consequences in tweeted across the world before the voting is over. the UK economy. Research Councils UK has calculated Science changes society, and generates wealth. The that a cut of £l billion in science spending results in a Campaign for Science and Engineering has estimated drop of £10 billion in gross domestic product. Therefore, that investment in science research gives a return of the protection offered by the Chancellor seems rather 30% a year in perpetuity. Right now, we need that flimsy, especially in the competitive world of global return more than ever, so we are right to treat this science. China is stoking its engine of innovation with debate as hugely important. To be fair, the Chancellor 2.5% of its GDP and an 8% rise this year. I hope the of the Exchequer, in the comprehensive spending review Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills statement, claimed that he was protecting the science will be listening to his hosts in China in that regard at budget, as many hon. Members have gratefully commented. least. In his final flourish, under the sub-heading “growth The situation is somewhat worse than it first appears. and promoting a private sector recovery”, he said: We have agreed that we need to rebalance our economy, “I have decided to protect the science budget. Britain is a world but we do not want to do that by reducing the financial leader in scientific research and that is vital to our future economic sector—absolutely not. We want to do it by growing success. That is why I am proposing that we do not cut the cash other sectors, such as advanced manufacturing. going to the science budget.”—[Official Report, 20 October 2010; In addition to the cuts to science funding, we have Vol. 516, c. 961.] further cuts disabling the vital economic levers that Now let us consider what the Chancellor did not say. translate scientific understanding into commercial ideas. As has been pointed out, a cash freeze means a 10% For example, programmes funded by the RDAs, which cut—assuming current rates of inflation—in real terms, supported the commercialisation of scientific discoveries, or £460 million, at a time when the rest of the world, which we have discussed, have already been cut—such including the US, China, France and Germany are as the Innovation Machine in Newcastle. increasing their science spend. Also, what the Chancellor calls the “science budget” is only 50% of Government It was mentioned that the Prime Minister announced science investment in the UK. The rest, including funding for the technology and innovation centres to departmental R and D, capital expenditure, R and D the tune of £200 million. However, in Germany, where tax credits and RDA spending, has not been frozen or the model they are based on is located, six times more is ring-fenced and therefore is vulnerable to cuts. In the spent each year on running costs. case of the RDAs, we know that their science funding of Given that our situation and the funding for science £440 million a year has been lost. If other expenditure is are under such threat, I ask the Minister to confirm a cut at the same rate as departmental expenditure—let number of points. Will Government spending on science us remember that this is science funding that has deliberately that is not in the £4.6 billion be safeguarded? Are the not been ring-fenced—we are looking at a cut of 10% in Government intending to increase science spend as a cash terms. proportion of GDP, in line with European targets? Do 131WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 132WH they acknowledge the vital role they must play in helping Friend the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon, my to commercialise new technologies? Finally, will R and hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell), D tax credits be safeguarded? the Prime Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for We need the jobs that come from the timely exploitation Banbury (Tony Baldry) all work well together on of scientific discoveries. The Government’s plans for Oxfordshire interests, even if we might clash on national science and research endanger all our futures. policies. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central 4.1 pm (Gavin Barwell) made a valuable contribution to the debate, and I have renewed respect for him now that I The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, know he is a theoretical physicist, while my hon. Friend Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Vaizey): I am grateful the Member for Warrington South has a distinguished for the chance to speak under your chairmanship, Mrs degree in engineering, although he left it for accountancy. Brooke. The last times I spoke in a debate, I had the full I propose a twinning arrangement with my hon. Friend might of the Welsh Labour party ranged against me, so the Member for Warrington South: I would certainly 50,000 students making noises off is slightly easier to like to see his facilities in Daresbury, if he will come and deal with. see my facilities in Harwell. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) on securing The debate covered a huge range of subjects. We even this important debate. One of the great advantages of got on to housing shortages, nimbyism and transport having new Members of Parliament is that those of us networks. However, what it boils down to—stating what who have been in Parliament for merely five years get I regard as the highlights—is essentially: the myth and the chance to patronise them, so let me say what a reality, as it were, of the science budget; the need to pleasure it was to be at her parliamentary birth, at the engage young people in science, even those in primary Abingdon leisure centre on that momentous night when schools; concerns about whether the coalition Government’s she became the Member of Parliament for Oxford West immigration policy will impact on scientific research in and Abingdon. the future; and some specific Government policies, notably on technology and innovation centres. I put on record what a hugely successful job my hon. Friend is doing—slightly too successful, as my Conservative association in Wantage keeps asking whether we can Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): May I bring the have her to speak instead of me. Also, almost all the Minister’s attention to another point that was raised? In companies in my constituency seem to want her to my time as the shadow Minister for Science and Innovation, come and visit them. In fact, she mentioned one that I, I was keen to have a chief scientific adviser in the too, visited on Friday—she had got there before Treasury. Can he shed any light on that matter or on me—Nexeon, in Milton park in Didcot. any progress that might be taking place in that regard? If my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) wants to know what the future is, he Mr Vaizey: If I can make a career-ending response to should resign his seat and go and work for Nexeon. It is that, in my short experience as a Minister I have discovered making extraordinary lithium ion batteries, which are that the Treasury thinks it knows absolutely everything, another example of British scientific expertise. The so the idea that it needs to be advised on science or, discovery was about the use of silicon, which stores indeed, any other subject would clearly be anathema to more energy, and Nexeon’s way of putting silicon into it. That, I am sure, is why it is resisting the appointment batteries promises the future—houses powered by batteries, of a chief scientific adviser—I shall turn to the role of apparently. the Government’s chief scientific adviser in a minute. I One of the great pleasures of representing my also congratulate my hon. Friend, because he was a constituency is that I wish I had won the lottery and distinguished shadow science spokesman for us. I have could invest in almost every company that I go and see no doubt that, behind the scenes, he influenced the there. One is literally “The Man in the White Suit” Government’s approach to the science budget. company—coat a shoe or shirt with its material and water literally drips off without leaving any damp patch To give credit where it is due, however, the Minister at all. However, I digress, and we do not have much for Universities and Science, my right hon. Friend the time. Member for Havant (Mr Willetts), who cannot be here because he is flying the flag for UK plc in India, I think, We have had a fantastic number of excellent contributions ought to be hugely credited with securing the important to the debate, such as those from the Chair of the settlement that we have had for science. Science and Technology Committee, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), and I would like to say that I played a role in that from the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), settlement. There was a moment when I was in the who reminded us why it is so important to have scientists Secretary of State’s office and I noticed a paper on the in the House, because of his chalk-face experience, if I Diamond synchrotron, so I said to his private secretary, may put it that way, and his ability to talk us through “You really want to sort out the Diamond synchrotron what happens with scientists on the ground. because they have a really effective MP and you don’t want to cross him.” He looked at me and said, “Who’s Another such contribution came from the right hon. that?” So, I am not sure how much influence I had, Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) who, as I have said although as a politician I would like to take the credit. many times before, is only in the House because I was the press officer of the Oxford university Conservative Other issues raised were the allocation between specific association when he was fighting Steve Norris in 1987. research councils—the charity research fund referred However, what is absolutely true is that he, I, my hon. to by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford West and 133WH Science Research10 NOVEMBER 2010 Science Research 134WH

[Mr Vaizey] of this new centre, which will bring together the Medical Research Council, University college London and medical Abingdon—and the capital funding. The debate was charities. not partisan and has been conducted on a good cross-party Reference has been made to the £69 million secured basis. by the Diamond synchrotron, as well as other important One of the things that I note about science, which we innovations such as the European Space Agency, which should all treasure, is that people from different places is also in my constituency. I was delighted to see the work together. [Interruption.] That is probably my right report this week, pointing out that space success has hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science rocketed in this country; the industry is now worth ringing— £7.5 billion, and it employs 25,000 people, which is an increase in a year of 11%. When the right hon. Member Mr Andrew Smith: Or the Chancellor. for Oxford East said that our scientists have a global reach, I would correct him and simply point out that Mr Vaizey: Yes, that is the Treasury on the phone. they now have an intergalactic reach, which we should praise. Going to such large scientific facilities—I was struck in particular going to the large hadron collider—one The important question of immigration was raised. sees Iranian scientists working next to Israeli scientists. It is absolutely part of our strength as a scientific nation That for me, if we are talking about bringing science that we attract the best scientists to live and work here. alive, brings alive the global, co-operative nature of As I said earlier, scientists working together from different science. countries that may be politically hostile to each other is very important. It is an extraordinary experience to I can tell hon. and right hon. Members that I cannot visit leading scientific institutions and see the range of tell them anything about some of the questions they people from across the world who have been attracted asked, because the negotiations are still ongoing. I can to them. We must secure that sort of international work tell them that we hope to conclude them by Christmas. force working together. Last week, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Mr Andrew Smith: The Minister is doing very well in Universities and Science met representatives of further the limited time, but can he write to us on the specific and higher education and of the UK Border Agency, questions that he does not have time to answer now? and had the opportunity to hear their concerns directly. My Department is working closely with the Home Mr Vaizey: I thought about standing up and simply Office to develop a system that, while delivering the saying that I would write to the right hon. and hon. Government’s objective—as my hon. Friend the Member Members, given that approximately 35 questions were for Croydon Central pointed out, it is strongly supportive asked in the course of the debate. However, I will of reducing the overall level of immigration—allows certainly ensure that we give a comprehensive response those who can make a positive contribution to the UK, to all right hon. and hon. Members who attended the such as researchers and academics, to continue to come debate, in response to all the questions asked by individual here. Members. The hon. Member for Cambridge spoke about people We talked about research budgets from other being denied a visa to attend a legitimate high-profile Departments. Yesterday the Department of Health signed conference. I understand his frustration. We need to an agreement for a UK Centre for Medical Research establish a system under which reputable institutions and Innovation, with £220 million for the construction should be trusted to vouch for those who attend conferences. 135WH 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Exeter to Plymouth Railway 136WH

Exeter to Plymouth Railway The inquiry findings were made public in February this year; its view was that, at a cost of £100 million, it 4.11 pm simply was not viable. We now have a new Administration, and I therefore seek an assurance that the Government Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): During see the coastal line as a priority. That is particularly the next 10 to 15 minutes, I shall speak about the south important as it will allow Network Rail and the Devon railway line. It is close to my constituents’ hearts, Environment Agency to plan for the future, and it is and I am clearly looking to the Minister to support clearly important that such planning be put in place continued investment in it. now. The line goes from Exeter to Plymouth, and part of it Why is it important that we plan now? It is important goes through my constituency. It goes through because, as many will be aware, this line has its own and down the coast through and . challenges, which are not new. They have been well From there it divides, and goes on either to Torbay or rehearsed; indeed, the matter was last debated in 2006. Plymouth. It is one of the most picturesque stretches of The main challenge is this: as a coastal line, it is inevitably railway in Europe; indeed, it is a tourist attraction in its affected by erosion and a rise in sea level. The line own right. follows 13 miles of tidal water, four of which are aligned The line is hugely important to the Devon economy with or cross open sea. The Met Office prediction is that for two reasons: because of the role it plays in supporting sea levels will rise by 0.32 metres over the next 100 years. tourism, and for its role in helping my constituents to That may seem a lot, and we need to plan now because commute to work and back. In my part of the world, of the consequences. public transport is important, as it is a very rural Another factor needs to be taken into account. The community. The Minister will be delighted to hear that Minister may know that the UK is on a tilt: the south-west the more rail travel we have, the smaller will be our is tipping into the sea, and the north-east is going the carbon footprint, so I hope to achieve some support in other way and rising out of the sea. As a consequence, that regard. the south-west is sinking by between 5 mm and 10 mm a I shall dwell first on the economic value of the line decade. We need to consider what has to be done sooner and explain how important it is for Devon. Tourism rather than later. accounts for 7% of the Devon economy, a substantial I have discussed the problem with Network Rail, the part. We have 5.3 million visitors a year, which is no body responsible for maintaining the line. It is more mean feat. , the part of my constituency than happy—it believes that it is viable—to continue through which the railway runs, is the second most investing £500,000 a year to ensure that the sea wall important destination for tourists. As a result, it is no remains rugged and fit for purpose. However, when surprise that 30% of the local work force are engaged in looking forward to 2025, it believes that more investment tourism or related industries. While tourists are in Devon, will be required. If we are to make that further investment, they spend in excess of £2 billion a year. That is a we need to consider its quantum and what sort of significant sum. disruption would be caused to local businesses, tourists I turn to the commuting element, and the economic and commuters, as we need to manage the process in a and environmental benefits of the line. The Minister sensible way. may be surprised to learn that 2 million people used In my discussions, I have discovered two problem that line during the last 12 months. Indeed, Network areas. One is in , where there has been Rail’s estimate is that we will see 19% growth over this consistent erosion; the sand has moved, to the benefit of year and next. It has been identified as one of the fastest Exminster and the detriment of Dawlish Warren. The growing lines. Environment Agency’s position is that we can hold the line, but come 2025 it believes that managed realignment Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I thank will be needed. What will happen then, and what will my hon. Friend for giving way, and I congratulate her the cost be? The second difficult area is Powderham on securing this debate. I give her my support and the bank. As the sea level rises there, the wetland will begin support of all Members of Parliament who represent to disappear. We need to ensure that we still have the Cornwall. wetland, with its birds and wildlife, which means we will All trains from Paddington to Cornwall use this line, have to create a causeway for the railway line. The but we in Cornwall are even more remote and peripheral appropriate spot for that is Powderham bank, but significant to the UK than Devon. The line is vital to us, and it engineering problems and costs will need to be evaluated. should be protected and upgraded, especially given the We need a shoreline management plan, and the environmental problems that I hope my hon. Friend Environment Agency is responsible for ensuring that it will mention. The line is important not only for Devon, is in place. As expected, it has developed an overarching but will play an important role in the future economy of coastline strategy. It has been diligent in renewing groynes Cornwall. and gabion defences. Recently the Environment Agency spent £100,000 on emergency repairs and, as we speak, Anne Marie Morris: I thank my hon. Friend for that is considering putting sand deposits on to Dawlish valuable contribution and for the support she offers. Warren to deal with the erosion problem. However, As I said at the outset, I am seeking the Minister’s there is a challenge in getting agreement between all the support for continued investment, and I shall explain interested stakeholders in Shoreline Management Plan 2, why. During the last Parliament there was a House of as it is called. That plan was discussed before the Commons inquiry into an alternative inland route, which election, and was put on hold as we moved towards the resulted from concerns about the viability of continuing election. Post-election, it is to be re-visited. There is a investment, given the coastal path that the route takes. meeting in two weeks’ time of the western structure 137WH Exeter to Plymouth Railway10 NOVEMBER 2010 Exeter to Plymouth Railway 138WH

[Anne Marie Morris] to temporary closures from time to time. Network Rail is responsible for the operation, maintenance and renewal team, at which Teignbridge district council, the Environment of the rail network and it takes very seriously the Agency, English Heritage, the Countryside Council— long-term resilience of the network in the face of climate indeed, all parties—will be present. My concern is that change. at that meeting there needs to be a real focus on what It falls to Network Rail to continue to monitor the the priorities should be. That is why I would like the likelihood of risks to the safety and operational integrity Minister’s assurance that the priority is to ensure that of the railway in the Dawlish area and to propose line continues to run. further appropriate measures of protection from flooding Therefore, I am looking for three things: a statement and coastal erosion. Network Rail is fully aware of the on the Government’s behalf that it is their priority to importance of the section of coastal main line between keep the line running; confirmation that there is no plan Teignmouth and Dawlish Warren. I understand that to resurrect a debate about the alternative inland route around £9 million has been invested in recent years to at a cost of £100 million; and for the Minister and the maintain the integrity of the sea wall and the stability of Government to direct Network Rail and the Environment the cliff face. Network Rail does not believe that the Agency to work together to find a way forward, putting railway sea defences in the Dawlish area are likely to fail this route and its long-term viability and infrastructure in the foreseeable future, thanks to the works carried at the heart of the plan going forward. I might be so out and ongoing maintenance and monitoring. bold as to suggest to the Minister a time line, because I Network Rail advises that it spends around £500,000 am conscious that with a plan and a time line, we will each year, as my hon. Friend notes, on maintaining the have a result. I suggest that in the rail regulatory period sea walls and estuaries. A dedicated contractor work 5, running 2009-14, the Minister propose that the group force is based at Dawlish. The sea walls are subject to an look at putting in place a proper plan and implementing enhanced structural maintenance inspection regime, with proper consultation, because the changes required in an additional post-storm element, to ensure railway 2025 will have significant local implications. I then safety and performance, and to target resources at suggest that during rail regulatory periods 6 and 7, where the risk is greatest. Weather forecasts and tidal which run from 2015-24, we look at the design and the predictions are monitored, and when the combination building of the work that needs to be put through. The of events reaches a pre-determined level, additional Minister will already be well aware that the Government inspections are undertaken. are committed to a high-speed train between London The implications of climate change will stretch into and Torbay; indeed, that starts next month. I hope that, the long term, however. On 16 September, my right hon. given that commitment, I and others can expect support Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food for this line. Otherwise, it will be a wasted investment. and Rural Affairs responded to a report published by In conclusion, I want to make clear on behalf of my the adaptation sub-committee, which was set up as a constituents and those of adjoining constituencies how result of the Climate Change Act 2008. She said: important this line is to the local economy of Devon “Although we need to bring down greenhouse gas emissions and Cornwall and to the south-west in general. I make internationally and to drive down our own emissions at home, we my case to the Minister on our constituents’ behalf that need to mitigate and adapt to the potential consequences of this line needs to be protected and to have continued climate change. This is one of the key priorities contained in the investment. We need confirmation that this is a priority coalition agreement.” line that will receive direction from the Government This is a challenge that Government must rise to, but and, where relevant, funding. they cannot do it alone. Transport infrastructure providers need to recognise both the economic and social necessity of taking steps to protect the areas for which they are 4.23 pm responsible. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Network Rail has been taking action for some time. (Norman Baker): I congratulate my hon. Friend the It is working with the Met Office by using its data to Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) on help to stress test thousands of miles of rail tracks, securing the debate. She set out with great clarity the embankments and bridges to determine whether they importance of the Exeter-Plymouth railway line to her can stand up to the patterns of extreme weather predicted constituency and the south-west in general. I welcome over the coming decades. The process is not cheap. The the opportunity to reassure her that the issues she raised investigation itself will cost around £750,000, but when about the route’s long-term resilience are being taken Network Rail points to such early action leading to seriously by the rail industry and the Government. savings of around £1 billion over 30 years, the work The Exeter-Plymouth railway line is of great importance starts to look incredibly good value for money. to the economy of south Devon, Torbay, Plymouth and This new piece of work builds on an earlier technical whole of Cornwall. It makes a significant contribution study undertaken by Network Rail and the Rail Safety to tourism in the area. I am sure that there are many and Standards Board in 2008. The railway lines adjoining people whose first glimpse of the Devon seaside came the Teign and Exe estuaries and the south Devon coast from the window of an express train as it hugged the were used as case studies, and the conclusions suggested, coast on the line between Exeter and Newton Abbot. not surprisingly, that the frequency of disruptions along The line is also important for people getting to work the main line was likely to increase over the next 70 years and college, and also for the businesses that rely on it to as sea levels rise. maintain efficient contacts with the rest of the country. Network Rail has therefore identified that there is a However, as my hon. Friend notes, its proximity to the problem—not just in south Devon but on other parts of coast is the line’s Achilles heel, and it has been subject the network—that needs to be addressed. The Department 139WH Exeter to Plymouth Railway 10 NOVEMBER 2010 140WH for Transport is funding a major research project with Housing Revenue Account Subsidy (Wales) Network Rail to understand the impact of climate change on the railway. The project has already identified 4.30 pm wave over-topping and flooding at defended coastal and estuarine railways at Dawlish as a priority. The next Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) phase of the project will provide the quantified evidence (PC): May I begin, Mrs Brooke, by saying that it is a needed to decide where and when investment may be pleasure and an honour to serve under your chairmanship needed to maintain the resilience of the railway to this afternoon? increasingly extreme weather. The topic of my debate is the housing revenue account subsidy scheme, aims to highlight one of the great No conclusion has yet been reached on what mitigation injustices of public housing policy in Wales during the measures might be required to minimise the risk to the last 20 years. That policy has led to a reported £2 billion rail network from rising sea levels at locations along the in cash terms—not taking into account inflation—of coast and river estuaries. Nevertheless, along with the the rents of some of the poorest people in Wales being key objective of protecting the railway, its users and returned to the Treasury. It has also led to chronic properties adjacent to it, it must be a priority to maintain under-investment in the Welsh public housing stock, access by rail to the areas of south Devon and Torbay. which is among the poorest and of the worst standard My hon. Friend asked whether keeping the line running in Europe, with the associated social and health implications. was a priority, and I hope I have answered that question—it It has deprived our communities of a significant cash is. Do we see it as the main line to Cornwall—this point investment. Furthermore, it has driven the stock transfer was also referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for agenda. Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton)—in the indefinite With the UK Department for Communities and Local future? Yes, we do. I will turn briefly to the question of Government scrapping the housing revenue account whether we intend to resurrect the debate about an subsidy scheme for England in September—a decision alternative route. A number of suggestions have been that we in Plaid Cymru welcome wholeheartedly—there made about building alternative routes away from the can be no justification for Welsh local authorities to coast or re-opening former railway lines such as the have to continue paying around £100 million per annum Exeter---Plymouth line. As I have to the Treasury. pointed out, any solution cannot ignore the needs of As far as Wales is concerned, the story of the housing south Devon and Torbay, so reopening that line alone revenue account subsidy scheme is one of great would not meet one of our key objectives. That is not to incompetence by both Labour and Tory politicians, say, however, that if the line were to open, it would not who have miserably failed some of the poorest people in be welcome. It would be welcome but, in our view, it Wales. Perhaps that is not surprising, as I am reliably would not be a substitute in any shape or form for the informed that only a very few individuals understand main line along the coast. the full complexity of the scheme. My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot also As part of the then Conservative Government’s relentless mentioned CP5 and the considerations for 2025, which attack on public housing, the Local Government and she identified as a key date. I undertake to pass on her Housing Act of 1989 led to the confiscation by the comments to the Minister of State, Department for Treasury of a large part of the rents paid by tenants. Transport, my right hon. Friend the right hon. Member The complication of the new arrangements was hardly for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers), so that she has them helped by those arrangements being labelled as a “subsidy”. in mind as she discusses the contents of CP5 with My understanding of the word is that “subsidy” should Network Rail. mean some sort of financial benefit, but that was certainly I am encouraged that Network Rail is engaging with not the case in this instance. other organisations to tackle the issue and taking it very The effect of the 1989 Act was to undermine the seriously. My hon. Friend the Member for Newton attractiveness of public housing by running down its Abbot referred to the Environment Agency, which has a quality, as investment was redirected from local key role to play. To meet her suggestion that we direct communities. Rents in Wales were lower than those in Network Rail and the Environment Agency to find a England—they still remain lower now—and that led to solution, I will be happy to write to them following the less revenue in general. The quality of housing in Wales debate to stress the importance of maintaining the line is also generally poorer. However, under the terms of to the economy of south Devon. the Act, local authorities were forced to return any surplus from expected rent, after operational and maintenance costs were met, to the Treasury, rather than investing those moneys in the housing stock. That had the bizarre effect of promoting the stock transfer of public housing, which is a theme I will return to later. Perhaps the use of the word “subsidy” comes from the effect of the new arrangements, which meant that those council tenants who were able to pay their rents were, via the new funding mechanism, paying for the housing benefit entitlements of others. Of course, that did not apply to private rented sector tenants or to tenants of registered social landlords. With HRA payments being used to fund housing benefit, the greater the money that the Treasury could accumulate via the scheme, the less it needed to pay out 141WH Housing Revenue Account Subsidy 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Housing Revenue Account Subsidy 142WH (Wales) (Wales) [Jonathan Edwards] a special case and Labour, which was in control of the Welsh Government, totally missed the significance of directly in benefits. Indeed, the 1989 Act allowed UK the changes applied to the HRA in England. As a Government Ministers to set the expected level of rent result, since devolution, Wales has lost a further £1 billion, income from each local authority, as well as the expected with an average of around £100 million per annum level of expenditure on maintenance and management being siphoned off from council rents in Wales. of their homes. It is true that the Welsh Government could have made a unilateral decision and left that money with the Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): First, I congratulate councils, but as devolution guidance notes insist that the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. On that any policy decision must be neutral in its impact upon specific point, it is also worth pointing out that the the Treasury that would have meant that the Welsh decision in 1989 to introduce those changes also meant Assembly Government had to find a further £100 million that there was a more equal distribution of rents among from its already underfunded Budget to give to the the local authorities in Wales. Indeed, there was a cap Treasury. Therefore, that is a change that can only be on the increase in rents for local authority housing at made with Treasury consent. that time. We in Plaid Cymru continuously make the case that Wales is ill-served by the UK Government. The Barnett Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman makes an formula continues to underfund Wales to the tune of honourable point, but I am trying to point out the £300 million per annum. We welcome the announcement perverse effects of the 1989 Act and I am sure that he of a review of the formula, which will take place shortly, will give me some time to do so. although for the life of me I cannot see why that review As I was saying, the 1989 Act allowed UK Government has to take place after the referendum. However, given Ministers to set the expected level of rent income and its attitude on Barnett and other issues, it is therefore of the expected levels of expenditure on maintenance and no surprise to us that the Treasury would consider management of the local authority homes. The policy Wales as an afterthought in relation to the introduction motive of the UK Government was to drive up council of the MRA in England in 2000. rents while decreasing expenditure on housing, in order to increase the differential and gain maximum financial The gross incompetence of the Welsh Government of advantage from the new arrangements. As a result, the the time is less easy to understand. Quite how successive quality of publicly owned housing stock in Wales Welsh Ministers and Welsh civil servants have failed to significantly worsened. challenge the inequity of the situation is quite beyond me. With a Labour-controlled Welsh Government more The then Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Walker, concerned with placating their London masters, it is was guilty of a dereliction of duty of the greatest scale, hardly surprising that the people of Wales are being let as Wales was included under the terms of the new down so badly. Indeed, it has taken a Plaid Cymru arrangements while the Secretary of State for Scotland, Housing Minister to put this issue on the agenda at all. Michael Forsyth, refused to sign the Scottish clause, In short, the Treasury, under Labour control, threw a meaning that Scotland was exempted from the 1989 hospital pass to the Welsh Government in 2000, with a Act. Considering that housing benefit is a UK function, tragic £1 billion consequence for some of the poorest there was no reason at all why Scotland should have communities in my country. been excluded and Wales included, apart from the ineptitude of the Wales Office and its Conservative occupants—if In 2004, the Welsh Assembly Government created its the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) will own MRA out of its own funds, which further confused forgive me for saying so. the issue. It meant that around £100 million was diverted from other areas of devolved responsibility each year, New Labour being new Labour, it continued the when the right course of action was to demand what policies of the previous Tory Government on public was rightfully Wales’s from the Treasury. Therefore, housing for the first three years after the 1997 election. despite the introduction of the Welsh Government- In 2000, however, following a backlash among local sponsored MRA, the Treasury continued to rake in authorities, the UK Government introduced proposals their £100 million per annum from the HRA scheme to amend the scheme without legislation. To end the in Wales. deduction of rents from local authorities, the Treasury introduced in each housing revenue account an amount As I mentioned earlier, one of the direct consequences for spending on the renovation of properties. That new of the HRA scheme has been to make the sale of budget line was called the major repairs allowance and publicly owned housing far more attractive, either under it was set at a level to ensure that local authority the terms of the right to buy or by the wholesale selling expenditure exceeded rental income, with the immediate off of stock to registered social landlords, because effect of halting the Treasury’s rent grab. housing associations are not covered by the scheme and The increase in funding brought about by the MRA are free to spend this money as they see fit on improving for England was from UK Government sources and the housing stock. UK taxpayer, and hence a Welsh equivalent should have To date, the local authorities of Bridgend, Ceredigion, been introduced by increasing the block grant by the Merthyr, Newport, Monmouthshire, Rhondda Cynon Barnett formula. However, and critically, those new Taff, Gwynedd, Torfaen and Conwy—the local authority changes were only applied to England. In what has been of the hon. Member for Aberconwy—have all transferred described as “the year of the great mistake” by Paul their stock to housing associations, with many more Griffiths, a former Labour Welsh Government special local authorities seeking to follow the same path, due to adviser, in an excellent Bevan Foundation article, for their inability to access funds to help them to meet the some reason the Treasury again decided to make Wales Welsh housing quality standards set for 2012. 143WH Housing Revenue Account Subsidy 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Housing Revenue Account Subsidy 144WH (Wales) (Wales) Guto Bebb: On that specific point, it is interesting to £32 million; Flintshire, £62 million; Gwynedd, £53 million; note that some local authorities in Wales have identified Ynys Môn, £23 million; Monmouthshire, £33 million; the issue and embarked upon stock transfer as a means Neath Port Talbot, £52 million; Newport, £75 million; by which they can invest in repairing the properties that Pembrokeshire, £63 million; Powys, £60 million; Rhondda they hold. Indeed, it is very interesting that Gwynedd Cynon Taff, £2 million; Swansea, £56 million; Torfaen, council, which is actually controlled by Plaid Cymru, £71 million; Vale of Glamorgan, £56 million; Wrexham, has also followed that procedure. However, I am sure £110 million. Merthyr was the only Welsh council in that the hon. Gentleman will concur that it is interesting surplus of £5 million. If the Minister wants, I can how often local opposition to such a move has been led provide an annual breakdown for each year since 1999, by Labour politicians. In view of how the Labour but I might try his patience a bit too much. Government in Wales failed completely in 2000 to address that issue, is it not surprising that local Labour politicians Guto Bebb: Do the figures quoted date from 2000 have been so opposed to those stock transfers? onwards, or from the 1989 decision? Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. It is a shame there are no Labour Jonathan Edwards: From 1999, because the Welsh Members here to debate that issue with us. Of course, Government can only provide figures since devolution, he and I have divergent views on stock transfer. I will but 2000 would have been the benchmark. return to the situation in my home county of Considering the pressure on housing waiting lists, it Carmarthenshire later. is sobering to think that if those moneys had been retained over the past decade, 10,000 brand-new family Guto Bebb: My understanding is that Plaid Cymru houses could have been built in Wales, all eco-friendly party members are extremely supportive of the stock and built to modern specifications. That could have transfer undertaken in Gwynedd. In the county of helped address major social justice issues such as fuel Conwy, which I have the pleasure to represent, it has poverty. Some 30% of households in Wales, not just been deemed a great success, even though Labour party those living in public stock, are in fuel poverty. We members opposed the decision. could have addressed Wales’s terrible legacy of poor Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman makes a housing and associated poor health. The money could point. To be honest, there is a debate within the party also have provided enormous benefits for the local about the merits of stock transfer. I, for one, am not as construction economy, which is part of the backbone of persuaded as may be some of my colleagues in the Welsh employment, and improved the circulation of north of our great country. money inside some of the poorest communities in Wales. The stock transfer agenda has been driven by the I am informed that by now the Treasury will have denial of funds to Welsh local authorities that would received a letter on the issue from the Welsh Minister not necessarily have wanted to go down that path, for Business and Budget and Deputy Minister for Housing because of the housing revenue account subsidy scheme. and Regeneration. The letter encloses a report by Professor The HRA scheme has therefore had the undoubted Wilcox, an expert on housing finance. I have not been effect of driving greater change in Wales than was ever privy to that report, but I believe that it argues that envisaged, and, in my view, not necessarily a change for Wales should have parity with Scotland. I agree, as I the better. hope will all parties in Wales. My local authority, Carmarthenshire county council, Furthermore, the new UK Government’s decision to which is keen on keeping its housing stock, was recently scrap the housing revenue account for England this forced to borrow money in order to introduce its housing September means that there is no justification whatever plan to keep its stock in public ownership. If the money for the Treasury’s insistence that the scheme should from the council’s own rents had been available to it, it continue to apply to Wales alone. Such is the inequity would not have needed to borrow money; it could have and injustice at the heart of the whole affair that I used the revenue generated by its stock’s rents. As a believe, as I said in a recent early-day motion, that the ring-fenced account, money collected in this way can Treasury should make reparations based on the real-terms only be used on housing. Why is that option simply not amounts of money accumulated over the past two available for local authorities in Wales? decades. At the very least, the Treasury must make a Due to the scale of the situation, it is perhaps surprising clear statement that the provisions of the HRA and the that the Treasury was unable to provide details of the great pillage of Welsh rents are to cease with immediate HRA contribution made by Welsh local authorities effect. when I asked a parliamentary question on the subject in In terms of the UK Budget, this ever-decreasing July. Thankfully, it seems the Welsh Government are figure, which lessens every time a local authority transfers better at keeping records of that sort of financial its housing stock, is small, but to the tenants who must transaction. Their response to my freedom of information make do with poorer-quality housing than they deserve request made clear the scale of the great rent robbery. and the local authorities that want to provide new and As the Treasury has been unable to provide the better-quality housing for their residents, it is a significant figures, it will be useful for the record and indeed for the amount. This is not just the right thing to do; it is the Treasury’s records if I outline each Welsh local authority’s best thing to do and the fair thing to do. Diolch yn fawr. contribution in cash terms since 1999. If I may try the patience of the House, Mrs Brooke, the figures are, to 4.45 pm the nearest million: Blaenau Gwent, £12 million; Bridgend, £16 million; Caerphilly, £70 million; Cardiff, £139 million; The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David my home county of Carmarthenshire, £51 million; Gauke): It is a great pleasure to serve under your Ceredigion, £15 million; Conwy, £14 million; Denbighshire, chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I congratulate the hon. 145WH Housing Revenue Account Subsidy 10 NOVEMBER 2010 Housing Revenue Account Subsidy 146WH (Wales) (Wales) [Mr ] Any decision on the future of the Welsh HRAS system will be made by the Assembly Government, subject Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan to agreement by HM Treasury. I note some of the Edwards) on securing this debate and presenting his hon. Gentleman’s criticisms of the Welsh Assembly case with such eloquence and detail, although I am Government—not all coalitions work as harmoniously grateful to him for not providing the breakdown of as others do. His points are very much on the record. every local authority for every year since 1999. It might be helpful for the hon. Gentleman to know I am pleased to have this opportunity to discuss the that, earlier this week, my right hon. Friend the Chief Government’s policy on the housing revenue account Secretary to the Treasury wrote to Jane Hutt, the Welsh subsidy system and its financial consequences in Wales. Finance Minister. He offered officials to work with Housing policy, as we heard from the hon. Gentleman, Welsh colleagues on developing a similar reform to the is governed by the same primary legislation in England Welsh HRA subsidy system, with the same protections and Wales, and the public spending framework is also provided for the position of the Exchequer. similar. However, it is important to remember that housing policy itself is a devolved matter. Guto Bebb: I am obviously delighted to hear that The HRAS system in Wales is based on notional because this is an important subject. Although I have income and expenditure on council housing, which is made the point that stock transfer has been a way of derived from information provided by local authorities. dealing with the matter and providing a more local If the overall HRAS system is in surplus once all local approach, it is fair to say that there is a cross-party authority expenditure has been totalled, the surplus is feeling in Wales that the issue should be dealt with. It is collected by the Welsh Assembly Government and given part of the localism agenda and the Minister’s comments directly to Her Majesty’s Treasury as annual managed are very welcome. expenditure. Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his I recognise that the existing centralised system is seen comments. Indeed, I have a lot of sympathy with what as complex and opaque and is therefore unpopular with he has said about stock transfer. If there is a consensus local authorities across Wales, a point made by the hon. within Wales, from the position of the UK Government, Gentleman. That is why the Welsh Assembly Government the Treasury is keen to engage. As I said, Treasury launched a review of the HRAS system last December. officials are available to work with their Welsh counterparts My colleagues in Government and I look forward to the to find a way in which we can move forward in this area. outcome of the review. As he said, there is certainly Yes, there are differences between the English and the potential to improve the current system, and any Welsh system, but we are keen to consider the matter recommendations will be duly considered as part of our and engage in a positive way. wider reform agenda. I thank the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and It might be helpful for me to touch briefly on the Dinefwr for securing today’s debate. He has raised some example of England, about which we have heard a little important points and I am grateful to him and my hon. bit. As part of the spending review, we announced that Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for we will be ending the current HRAS system in England their contributions. It is incredibly important to address and introducing a new self-financing model for council the issue of housing needs across Wales—and the UK housing that will abolish the annual centralised subsidy more generally—and the Government are keen to do so. and replace it with a more transparent system that gives I look forward to seeing the proposals for reform of the greater power to local councils and authorities. HRAS system that the Welsh Assembly Government As in many areas of public service provision, we seek are currently putting together and, as I mentioned to devolve responsibility away from the centre so that earlier, the Treasury is keen to engage in that process. I communities have more of a say in what goes on in their hope that, through working in partnership with the local area. The measure will enable councils to keep Welsh Assembly Government, we can find a solution their rental income and use it to maintain homes for that meets the needs of local authorities in Wales set out current and future tenants, providing new opportunities by the hon. Gentleman. I also hope that we can deliver and incentives for authorities to plan for the longer similar protection to the Exchequer as that achieved by term. That approach will allow councils better to meet the reforms we have undertaken in England, which have the housing needs of their specific areas. Decisions will been assessed by the Office for Budget Responsibility as be made based on local knowledge and priorities, not a being fiscally neutral. In that context, I would like to central Government formula. Details of the new system say that this has been a useful debate. I am grateful to will be introduced this autumn as part of the localism the hon. Gentleman for securing it and I hope he feels Bill. that it has enabled us to make some progress in this In principle, it would be feasible to construct a similar area. solution for Welsh authorities, if that is what they wish Question put and agreed to. to propose. However, there are some differences between the HRAS systems in England and Wales that will need 4.52 pm to be bottomed out. As I said, it is a devolved matter. Sitting adjourned. 15WS Written Ministerial Statements10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

Homes, and the decision today concluded that section 79 Written Ministerial powers could not be used to revoke all regional strategies in their entirety. Statements While respecting the court’s decision this ruling changes very little. Later this month, the coalition Government will be introducing the localism Bill to Parliament, Wednesday 10 November 2010 which will sweep away the last Government’s controversial regional strategies. It is clear that top-down targets do TREASURY not build homes—they have just led to the lowest peacetime house building rates since 1924, and have fuelled resentment Economic and Financial Affairs Council in the planning process that has slowed everything (11 November 2010) down. On 27 May 2010, the Government wrote to local The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine planning authorities and to the Planning Inspectorate Greening): I plan to represent the Government at the informing them of the coalition Government’s intention Budget ECOFIN to be held on 11 November in Brussels. rapidly to abolish regional strategies and setting out Budget ECOFIN will prepare a conciliation meeting their expectation that the letter should be taken into with the European Parliament on the EU budget for account as a material planning consideration in any 2011, and handle the outcome of that conciliation decisions they were currently taking. That advice still meeting. stands. The Government remain committed to opposing the Today, the Government’s chief planner has written to increases of around 6% in the 2011 EU budget, above all local planning authorities and the Planning Inspectorate 2010 levels, proposed by the Commission and the European confirming that they should have regard to this material Parliament. These are simply unacceptable at a time consideration in any decisions they are currently taking. when Governments across the European Union are Moreover, to illustrate the clear policy direction of taking difficult decisions to reduce national deficits and the coalition Government, the proposed clause of the ensure the sustainability of their public finances. localism Bill that will enact our commitment to abolish The Government have called for a freeze in the 2011 regional strategies is being placed in the Library. The EU budget at 2010 levels. We voted for this when Bill is expected to begin its passage through Parliament Council adopted its position on the budget earlier this before Christmas. year, which proposed a 2.9% increase over 2010 levels. We are determined to return decision-making powers Six other member states also voted against Council’s in housing and planning to local authorities and the position. It was nevertheless adopted by a qualified majority. communities they serve, alongside powerful incentives Along with 12 other member states’ Governments, so that people see the benefits of building. We will very the Government have made it clear that they cannot shortly provide more details about one of the most accept any increase beyond 2.9% in the 2011 EU budget important such incentives, the new homes bonus scheme, compared to the 2010 budget. Those are the terms of which will come into effect from April. This means that agreement that this Government will pursue at Budget new homes delivered now will be rewarded under the ECOFIN on 11 November. scheme. The coalition Government remain firmly resolved to DEFENCE scrap the last Government’s imposition of confusing and bureaucratic red tape. This was a clear commitment Call-Out Order to Support Operations in Afghanistan made in the coalition agreement and in the general election manifestoes of both coalition parties. We intend to deliver on it. The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey): With the expiry of the call-out order made on 11 November 2009, a new order has been made under section 54 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE continue to be called out into service to support operations in Afghanistan. The new order is effective until 10 November 2011. Reservists continue to make a valuable Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 contribution to operations in that country and some (Ratification of Treaties) 1,280 reservists are currently called out and serving, of whom 530 are deployed in Afghanistan. The Minister for Europe (Mr ): The Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Commencement Order No.3 was made today 11 November, 2010. This brings into force part 2 of the Constitutional Localism Bill and Planning Reform and Governance Act 2010 (CRaG Act) which deals with the ratification of treaties. The Foreign and The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Commonwealth Office has overall responsibility for Government (Mr Eric Pickles): On 6 July 2010, the the conclusion of treaties, and leads on policy in this coalition Government revoked all regional strategies respect. Part 2 of the CRaG Act is the new basis for under section 79(6) of the Local Democracy, Economic treaty scrutiny by Parliament, and replaces the former Development and Construction Act 2009. This action constitutional practice dating from 1924, known as was challenged in the High Court by developer CALA “The Ponsonby Rule”, with statutory provisions. 17WS Written Ministerial Statements10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

The effects of part 2 of the Act may be summarised Guidance on the ratification of treaties and part 2 of as follows: the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 is published by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on Section 20 provides that a treaty that is subject to its website (www.fco.gov.uk/treaty). ratification or its equivalent, is to be published and laid before Parliament for a period of 21 sitting days, during which both Houses have the opportunity to resolve that the treaty should not be ratified. If the 21 sitting days expire with no such resolution being passed by either JUSTICE House, the Government can proceed to ratify the treaty. It also defines the legal effect of a negative vote by either House. Parliamentary Written Question (Correction) Section 21 provides a mechanism for Parliament to request extensions to the 21 sitting day period, in blocks The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice of up to 21 sitting days, at the discretion of the relevant (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): An error has been identified in Minister. the written answer given to the hon. Member for Section 22 provides an “alternative procedure” in North () on 19 July 2010, Official Report, exceptional cases where a Minister is of the opinion columns 45-46W. The correct answer is as follows: that it should be ratified without following the procedures The number of court proceedings processed in the in section 20. magistrates courts in England and Wales, England, and the Local Criminal Justice Board area, Section 23 makes provision for classes of treaties that from 2007 to 2009, is given in the table. Statistics are not are to be dealt with differently because they are scrutinised available prior to 2007 on a comparable basis. by other means, notably—(i) under the European Parliamentary Elections Act 2002 or the European Table 1. Completed court proceedings in the magistrates courts, Union (Amendment) Act 2008, (ii) agreements and England and Wales, 2007-2009 arrangements relating to taxation, or (iii) because scrutiny Total number of them is not for the UK Parliament that is, treaties of completed Total concluded by overseas territories, the Channel Islands criminal Total number number of and the Isle of Man as authorised by HMG. proceedings of completed completed (including non-criminal court Section 24 requires that treaties laid before Parliament Year Area breaches) proceedings proceedings under section 20 shall be accompanied by an explanatory memorandum explaining the provisions of the treaty, 2007 England 2,184,000 981,000 3,165,000 and Wales the reasons for HMG seeking ratification of the treaty, and other relevant information. England 2,051,000 923,000 2,974,000 West 132,000 62,000 194,000 Section 25 defines “treaty” and “ratification” for the Midlands purposes of the Act. 2008 England 2,031,000 977,000 3,008,000 and Wales The Act changes the Ponsonby rule in several respects: England 1,909,000 917,000 2,826,000 Part 2 gives legal effect to a vote against ratification West 121,000 63,400 184,000 in the Commons or Lords. It prevents the Government Midlands from moving immediately to ratify a treaty if either 2009 England 1,913,000 974,000 2,887,000 House votes against ratification. and Wales England 1,797,000 910,000 2,708,000 If the Government nevertheless wish to proceed to West 107,000 66,000 173,000 ratification, the Minister must lay a statement giving Midlands reasons why. If the Commons voted against, a further Source: 21 sitting day period must expire before ratification HM Courts Service Completed Proceedings database, collected through can take place. If the Commons vote against ratification the HM Courts Service Performance Database (“OPT”) and by during this subsequent 21 sitting days, the Government manual data returns prior to April 2007. are prevented from ratifying the treaty. However, a Notes: statement can be laid more than once and therefore (1) All figures are given to the nearest thousand. (2) Criminal proceedings include indictable/Triable-Either-Way, adult this process can continue. If the Lords vote against breach proceedings, adult summary motoring and non-motoring ratification, but the Commons do not, then a ministerial proceedings, and youth proceedings. statement must be laid before Parliament explaining (3) Civil and family applications include care proceedings, Children why the treaty should nevertheless be ratified. Act 1989 section 8 Orders, emergency protection orders, licensing, other civil applications and others. Other includes means inquiries, The definition of “sitting days” is limited to days on representation orders and special jurisdiction. which both Houses sit. (4) Prior to April 2007, data were collected through different data collection systems and therefore not directly comparable with those Part 2 also provides that the Minister can extend the given in the table, based on HMCS Performance database (OPT). For sitting period by 21 sitting days or less (and votes this reason, the table shows the figures from 2007 only. In addition, against ratification will continue to have legal effect the case management system used in the magistrates courts was updated between December 2005 and December 2008, from multiple in this period). legacy systems to Libra. Libra was rolled out in the West Midlands courts between March-October 2008. Part 2 also requires the Minister, if the “alternative (5) The above stated figures may not be directly compared with those procedure” in clause 23 is being used in exceptional published prior to the Judicial and Court Statistics 2008 bulletins, due circumstances, to lay a statement giving reasons. to figures being derived from a different data source. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

PRIME MINISTER Full Representatives Substitute Members

Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and Lord John Tomlinson MP Assembly of Western European Union (UK Delegation) Virendra Sharma MP

Parliamentary Assembly of the OSCE (UK Delegation) The Prime Minister (Mr ): The United Kingdom delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and Assembly of Western European Union is as follows: The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): The United Kingdom delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of Robert Walter MP (Leader) the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe is a follows: Full Representatives Substitute Members Peter Bottomley MP (Leader) Brian Binley MP Lord Anderson Christopher Chope OBE MP Joe Benton MP Full Representatives Substitute Members James Clappison MP Nicholas Boles MP Lord Bowness CBE Nick de Bois MP MP Lord Boswell of Aynho Tracey Crouch MP Lord Glentoran CBE Earl of Dundee Michael Connarty MP Lord Dubs Mr Dai Havard MP Baroness Eccles of Moulton Geraint Davies MP MP Simon Reevell MP Paul Flynn MP Jim Dobbin MP Mark Hendrick MP Nick Smith MP MP Jeffrey Donaldson MP Baroness Hilton QPM Sir Robert Smith MP Michael Hancock CBE MP Roger Gale MP Tony Lloyd MP Jim Hood MP Lord Glentoran CBE Linda Riordan MP Alan Meale MP Oliver Heald MP Baroness Emma Nicholson Lord Inglewood Angus Robertson MP Sandra Osborne MP Charles Kennedy MP Bob Stewart MP Claire Perry MP Edward Leigh MP Rory Stewart MP Lord John Prescott Ian Liddell-Grainger MP Roger Williams MP Jim Sheridan MP Yasmin Qureshi MP

1P Petitions10 NOVEMBER 2010 Petitions 2P Petitions OBSERVATIONS TRANSPORT Wednesday 10 November 2010 Intercity Express Programme PRESENTED PETITION The Petition of residents of the Sedgefield constituency, Petition presented to the House on Tuesday 9 November and others, 2010 but not read on the Floor Declares that the petitioners believe that the Government Elizabeth Regina Love Correspondence should implement the procurement of rolling stock The Petition of Mr Martin Burke, through the Intercity Express programme, which would Declares that on 10 December 2004 Her Majesty the lead to Hitachi building a manufacturing site in Newton Queen honoured Mr Martin Burke with the invitation Aycliffe; and further declares that this would result in that the badge for his business, the letters E and R with the creation of hundreds of direct jobs and thousands a heart design, be Her Majesty’s (with effect from of jobs in the supply chain, of which the majority 28 February 2004). Declares that the correspondence would be in manufacturing, giving a much needed between the petitioner and Buckingham Palace in 2004 boost to the North East economy and improving rail was private, however sometimes confusion has arisen so services nationwide. in June 2007 the letters were made public. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Declares that at first glance the correspondence may Commons urges the Government to implement the appear to say the opposite of what it does say so a procurement of rolling stock through the Intercity Express detailed analysis has been given, available at the new Programme. web address www.elizabethreginalove.com/correspondence And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Phil (changed from www.eheartr.com). Wilson, Official Report, 13 October 2010; Vol. 516, Declares that this analysis firstly notes the way of c. 459.] operating in the petitioners’ first letter dated 28 February [P000863] 2004: that if you announce your intention to do something Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: and nothing is said then leave is granted, and further declares that in now over 6 years since no instruction to In February 2009, Agility Trains, a consortium of cease and desist has been given, on the contrary. Notes Hitachi and John Laing, was appointed preferred bidder that further detailed analysis of the correspondence is to build and maintain a fleet of new Super Express given in this analysis. Further declares that the petitioner trains under the Intercity Express Programme (IEP). was asked very courteously that the badge for Emotion The initial order, together with all of the options, would Records be The Queen’s Cypher. Declares that in respect have brought the total fleet size up to 1,400 rail vehicles. of this the trading name of Emotion Records Limited If the order goes ahead, Hitachi has made clear its was changed to Elizabeth Regina Love and its range of ambition to establish a new assembly plant at Newton activities further widened. Aycliffe in the Sedgefield constituency, within County Further declares that the guidance from the Lord Durham to build the new trains. The new plant would Chamberlain’s office on the use of Royal Arms, Names employ around 500 people, and a further 200 during and Images is that the use of the Royal Arms and of construction. Royal Devices, Emblems and Titles, or of Arms, Devices, The Government also understand how important etc., [ ... ] is prohibited by the Trades Marks Act 1994, this project is to British manufacturing and the north unless the permission of the Member of the Royal east, and how seriously the project is being taken in Family concerned has been obtained, and that the Lord Japan. Chamberlain’s office gave the Queen’s permission. In his recent review of IEP,Sir Andrew Foster suggested Notes that the apparent ambiguity in the correspondence that the programme should be paused while possible was not a mistake, and that the petitioner was being credible alternatives are assessed, and the Department asked to take the consequences of any misperception. has been progressing this work. Agility Trains made a The petitioner therefore requests that the House of submission to the Department during September, and it Commons accept a copy of the analysis of the improves the business case for that particular option. correspondence for inclusion in the House of Commons The work has been focused on how this option compares Library, and that were the question put the House to the others: in terms of value for money and affordability. consent to the request(s) in this Mr Burke’s 17th petition We are currently giving further consideration to the first emailed to the House on 30 March 2010, and revised proposals from Agility Trains for the Intercity amended and added to on 5 August 2010. Express Programme, and announcements on other DfT And the Petitioner remain, etc. rolling stock programmes will be made in the light of [P000867] the Government’s ongoing work on IEP.

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the Commission later this month. I look forward to Written Answers to working with my counterparts in the EU and Devolved Administrations in order to further the simplification Questions agenda as part of these negotiations. Arpley Landfill Site Wednesday 10 November 2010 David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) WALES air quality and (b) water quality tests the Environment Agency has carried out within a one mile radius of the Institute of Fiscal Studies Arpley landfill site in the last five years. [21679]

Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency has carried Wales how much her Department spent on services out one air quality test within a one mile radius of the provided by the Institute for Fiscal Studies in each of Arpley landfill site in the last five years. This monitored the last 10 years. [23397] flammable gases close to the surface of the landfill. The Environment Agency has also monitored ground gases Mr David Jones: Nil. in boreholes adjacent to the landfill. The Environment Agency has sampled water quality on 522 occasions in this area over the last five years. Each test is sampled for a number of different contaminants WOMEN AND EQUALITIES that may be present in the river. Sexual Harassment The site operator is also required to carry out air and water quality monitoring as part of its permit conditions. Jo Swinson: To ask the Minister for Women and The operator is required to submit the results of this Equalities what recent research the Government Equalities monitoring to the Environment Agency on a periodic Office has evaluated on the incidence of sexual harassment basis. of 16 to 18-year-olds; and if she will make a statement. [23018] David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 9 November 2010]: complaints in respect of the handling of (a) hazardous The Government Equalities Office has not undertaken waste and (b) radioactive waste at the Arpley landfill any recent research on the incidence of sexual harassment site the Environment Agency has received in each of the of 16 to 18-year-olds. last five years. [21680] Violence against women and girls ruins lives, destroys Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency has not families, and has an impact across many generations. received complaints in respect of the handling of hazardous The gendered pattern and the dynamic of violence waste or radioactive waste at the Arpley landfill site in against women and girls needs to be understood and the last five years. acknowledged and a cross-government strategy is the best way to address this. We are also developing a The Arpley landfill site is only permitted to accept cross-government communications strategy which will non-hazardous and inert wastes under the terms of the challenge attitudes and behaviours towards women and current environmental permit. girls which are unacceptable. Our work will also consider the effects of such violence on men and boys. Bottles: Recycling

Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the oral answer from the Prime Minister of 15 September Agriculture: Subsidies 2010, Official Report, column 878, on bottle deposit and refund schemes, what consideration her Department Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for has given to the Campaign to Protect Rural England’s Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she report Have we got the bottle? Implementing a Deposit plans to take to simplify the processes for making Refund Scheme in the UK; and if she will make a single farm payments as part of Common Agricultural statement. [22689] Policy reform by 2013. [21870] Richard Benyon [holding answer 8 November 2010]: Mr Paice [holding answer 4 November 2010]: Reform We are currently analysing all contributions received as of the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) must deliver part of the review of waste policy, including the Campaign better value for farmers, taxpayers, consumers and the to Protect Rural England’s report, ‘Have we got the environment. Part of this must also be about developing bottle?’. a CAP that is simpler, and reducing the administrative As part of this review, the option of bottle deposit burden on farmers from unnecessary regulation. refund systems has been raised by a number of contributors, Negotiations on CAP will begin formally in the context with divergent views. We will review all evidence submitted of a communication which we expect to be published by before making any formal decisions. 309W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 310W

Cotton: EU Action increase it over the next four years. The details for the next round of the Darwin Initiative, including the plans Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for for the Overseas Territories Challenge Fund, are being Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy elaborated, and we are aiming to launch the next round is on EU cotton subsidies; and if she will seek their as soon as possible. abolition as part of post-2013 Common Agricultural Policy reform negotiations. [22225] Forestry Commission

Mr Paice: I believe that the time has come for the last Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, remaining direct support to the EU cotton sector to be Food and Rural Affairs (1) which (a) duties and (b) de-coupled and the UK will be pursuing this end as part functions of the Forestry Commissioners she plans to of our negotiating position in the forthcoming Common delegate to other bodies; [22975] Agricultural Policy Reform round. (2) to whom she plans to delegate the duties and Dairy Farming functions of the Forestry Commissioners of Great Britain. [22976] Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will take Mr Paice: The Government are seeking legislative steps to ensure that future proposals for intensive dairy changes in the Public Bodies Bill to enable Ministers farming are examined by her Department; and if she and the Forestry Commission in England to operate will make a statement. [21683] more flexibly. DEFRA and the Forestry Commission will consult shortly on proposals for the management Mr Paice: Planning proposals for intensive dairy and ownership of the public forest estate in England. farming units are for relevant planning authorities to examine. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the role of Forestry DEFRA’s interest is in ensuring that our comprehensive Commission Great Britain is in respect of setting minimum animal welfare and environment legislation which applies standards for sustainable forest management for forests to all livestock farming, whatever the system and regardless and woodlands. [22977] of size is applied correctly. As long as these standards are met, the Government Mr Paice: The Forestry Commission is responsible recognise that the UK market has a place for sustainable for developing the standards for sustainable forestry intensification as well as more traditional production management in the UK. The UK Forestry Standard and added-value production, to enable the industry to sets minimum standards and is accompanied by a series be competitive in the UK, EU and global markets. of guidelines providing advice on its implementation. English Forestry Forum Following a comprehensive review exercise over the last two years, a revised standard and guidelines are expected to be available in the new year. These have been developed Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, in close consultation with the forest industry and other Food and Rural Affairs when she expects the next stakeholders. meeting of the English Forestry Forum to take place. [22979] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the role of Forestry Mr Paice: I have no plans to hold further meetings of Commission Great Britain is in respect of research and this group. There will be stakeholder workshops as part knowledge transfer for sustainable forest management of the public consultation on proposals for the public across the UK. [22978] forest estate in England, and I encourage any former member of the English Forestry Forum to participate in Mr Paice: Forest Research, an agency of the Forestry these workshops. Commission, develops the evidence base to support Environment Protection: British Overseas Territories sustainable forest management in the UK. This informs policy development, and provides practical guidance and support for operational forestry on the public and Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for private forest estate. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans her Department has for future (a) co-ordination of and (b) funding for the (i) Overseas Territories Environment Forestry Commission: Land Programme, (ii) Darwin Initiative and (iii) Overseas Territories Challenge Fund. [23096] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions she has had Richard Benyon: The Overseas Territories Environment with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the use of Programme is jointly administered and funded by the funds arising from the sale of Forestry Commission Department for International Development and the land in England; and if she will make a statement. Foreign and Commonwealth Office. On the Darwin [22971] Initiative, my right Hon Friend, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, announced Mr Paice: DEFRA continues to hold discussions at the recent meeting of the Convention on Biological with HM Treasury about the future of the public forest Diversity in Nagoya, Japan, that the UK will not only estate in England. We will be consulting on proposals sustain the existing level of funding, but now plans to shortly. 311W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 312W

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, The HFCs observation data is used to verify the UK Food and Rural Affairs when she expects the Forestry GHG Inventory and is available from the Air Quality Commission’s portfolio analysis of the public forest website at: estate to be published. [22974] http://www.airquality.co.uk/reports/cat07/ 1010151420_ukghgi-90-08_Annexes_Issue3_r.pdf Mr Paice: The portfolio analysis is a geographical Under the European Pollutant Release and Transfer computer tool that enables the Forestry Commission to Register, available at: aid decision-making and assist with the management of http://prtr.ec.europa.eu/PollutantReleases.aspx the public forest estate. We shall be publishing and the UK estimates its emissions of CFCs, HFCs and HCFCs, consulting on proposals for the public forest estate in however the data is only available for 2007 and 2008. England shortly. The following information is held on quantities of CFCs recovered (and destroyed) in the UK: Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what financial provisions she Kilograms plans to make for additional woodland areas that become Recovered eligible for land management grants as a result of future Ozone-depleting sales of Public Forest Estate land. [22980] substance 20051 20061 20072 20082 20092

CFC R11 374,677 285,217 315,940 231,269 198,795 Mr Paice: We are committed to maintaining the CFC R12 90,819 67,225 64,645 42,090 39,085 existing levels of support for private woodland owners CFCs—unspecified 1,200 59,095 10,454 16,352 — for the remainder of the Rural Development Programme Total 466,696 411,537 391,039 289,711 237,880 for England, which runs until 2013. This includes the 1 UK figures. English Woodland Grant Scheme administered by the 2 England and Wales only. Forestry Commission. No information is held on quantities of HFCs and HCFCs recovered and recycled in the UK. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Landfill: Refrigerators Food and Rural Affairs what estimate she has made of the likely change in the area of woodland certified against the UK Woodland Assurance Standard as a David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what information result of sales of Public Forest Estate land. [22981] her Department holds on the average annual number of retail refrigerated display cabinets disposed of in landfill Mr Paice: Certification under the UK Woodland sites in the last five years; [21224] Assurance Standard is voluntary. The entire public (2) what information her Department holds on the forest estate is certified, as well as 144,000 hectares of average annual number of retail refrigerated display other woods in England. An assessment of any potential cabinets which were (a) re-manufactured and (b) change will be explored following the consultation exercise recycled in the last five years. [21225] on the future of the public forest estate which we plan to hold early next year. Richard Benyon: DEFRA does not hold complete information on the number of retail refrigerated display Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Electronic Equipment cabinets reused, recycled or disposed of in landfill sites. The EC regulations on substances that deplete the Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for ozone layer require ozone-depleting substances to be Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what information removed from commercial refrigeration equipment before her Department holds on the quantity of (a) it is disposed of. In 2009, seven treatment sites in chlorofluorocarbon, (b) hydrofluorocarbon and (c) England and Wales processed 1,594,962 refrigeration hydrochlorofluorocarbon gases which were (i) emitted units (both household and non-household) for ozone- to the atmosphere and (ii) recovered and recycled in the depleting substances. This does not include data for UK from refrigeration and air conditioning equipment commercial refrigeration units which do not contain in each of the last five years. [22449] ozone-depleting substances, nor are these data specific to refrigerated display cabinets. Richard Benyon [holding answer 8 November 2010]: The UK waste electrical and electronic equipment The Department for Energy and Climate Change (DECC) (WEEE) regulations encourage the separate collection currently reports annual emissions of hydrofluorocarbons of WEEE, establish minimum treatment standards, and (HFCs) in the UK Greenhouse Gas (GHG) Inventory, set recovery and recycling targets. DEFRA does not which is available from the National Atmospheric Emissions hold data on the number of retail refrigerated display Inventory website at: cabinets processed under these Regulations as non- http://www.naei.org.uk household WEEE is currently non-obligated. In addition to this, DECC funds the measurement National Parks: Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty of atmospheric gas concentrations of HFCs, chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and hydrochlorofluorocarbons Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for (HCFCs) at the Mace Head observation site. This data Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance is available from the Advanced Global Atmospheric she has issued to Ofgem on its duty to have regard to Gases Experiment website: the purposes of National Parks and Areas of Outstanding http://agage.eas.gatech.edu/ Natural Beauty. [21988] 313W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 314W

Richard Benyon: In 2005 DEFRA produced a guidance Recycling note about the duties to have regard to the purposes of National Parks and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for This was sent to all those considered to be bound by Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will take them, including Ofgem. steps to increase the proportion of commercial waste In April of this year DEFRA also wrote to Ofgem (as which is recycled; and if she will make a statement. a body it considered to be covered by the ‘have regard’ [22903] duty) to draw its attention to the new National Parks Circular. Richard Benyon [holding answer 9 November 2010]: The recycling rate of the commercial and industrial Nitrogen Dioxide: Pollution Control sector in England was 42% in 2002-03, when the last statistical survey of the sector was undertaken. We are Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for currently undertaking a comparable survey, with the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans interim results to be published on 10 November 2010, to announce the outcomes of her Department’s review and the final results scheduled for release in December of options in respect of measures to help achieve 2010. This will give us an up-to-date picture of how nitrogen dioxide limit values by 2015. [22345] much commercial waste is recycled. The review of waste policy, announced by the Secretary of State on 15 June, Richard Benyon: The Government are preparing air will consider how we can remove some of the barriers to quality plans to achieve EU limit values for nitrogen recycling, particularly for small and medium-sized dioxide (NO2). These plans will set out measures to businesses, and how we can make it easier for businesses achieve the NO2 limit value by 2015, and will be included to recycle. This will help in our commitment to work in the UK’s time extension notification under the Ambient towards a zero waste economy. Air Quality Directive (2008/50/EC). The Government expects to submit its NO time extension notification to 2 Rodents: Henderson Island the European Commission by the required deadline of September 2011. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Pollution: Liquefied Petroleum Gas Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) if she will respond to the recent judgment by the UNESCO World Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Heritage Committee on the need for Government support Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate for a rat eradication scheme for Henderson Island; she has made of the contribution of the use of liquid [23097] petroleum gas as a (a) road and (b) domestic fuel to (2) if she will take steps to support the conservation meeting air quality requirements. [21722] of endangered wildlife on (a) Henderson Island (Pitcairn) and (b) Gough Island. [23098] Richard Benyon: With regards to what assessment has been made on the use of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) Richard Benyon: At its 34th meeting in July this year, as a road fuel, I refer the hon. Member to the answer UNESCO’s World Heritage Committee commended given in response to the hon. Member for Glasgow the considerable progress made in planning the invasive South (Mr Harris) by the Secretary of State for Transport rat eradication scheme for Henderson Island, and noted on 8 November 2010, Official Report, column 108W. that further funding was needed to implement the No specific assessments have been undertaken to scheme. To this end my right hon. Friend, the Secretary estimate the contribution of the use of LPG as a of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs domestic fuel to meeting air quality requirements. announced, at the recent meeting of the Convention on Indicatively, LPG is used domestically as a cost-effective Biological Diversity in Nagoya, Japan, that the UK will alternative to coal or gasoil predominately in rural be contributing £200,000 towards this initiative during areas, which are not connected to the gas grid. Emission the current year. This is in addition to funding for the calculations using the 2008 UK inventory for the domestic project already provided by the Overseas Territories sector emissions, found switching from LPG to either Environment Programme, administered by the Department gasoil or burning oil has a negligible effect across all for International Development and the Foreign and pollutants, with very small increases in emissions of Commonwealth Office. The Government will consider plans for carrying out similar activities on Gough Island SO2, CO and NOx. These calculations also showed that switching to coal from LPG would increase emissions as and when they are received. for the majority of pollutants. If all the domestic energy produced using LPG was completely substituted by Water Supply: Leaks coal, increases in UK emissions would be observed; 4% for PM10, 3% for PM2.5, 3% for CO, 2% for SO2 and Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for 1% for VOC with a negligible effect on other pollutants. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she The majority of domestic LPG use takes place in plans to take in respect of water companies identified rural areas where areas of exceedences of the limit by Ofwat as failing to reduce excessive water leakage. values stipulated in legislation do not occur. The pollutants [22578] which are monitored as part of the Gothenburg Protocol and the National Emissions Ceiling Directive which the Richard Benyon: Ofwat has detailed the steps it is UK needs to reduce in order to meet its emissions taking to reverse recent rises in leakage at some companies ceiling are much lower when LPG is used compared to in its 2009-10 service and delivery report. The document coal. However, the domestic sector is a small contributor. is available on its website. 315W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 316W

An explanation of the actions Ofwat has taken in the Mr Paterson: I meet regularly with both the Justice past against companies that have failed their leakage Minister and the Chief Constable to discuss a range of targets is included in the report. issues, including PSNI resources. It is for the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable to negotiate and agree the policing budget with the Northern Ireland NORTHERN IRELAND Executive. But my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I have made it clear that we will protect the people Dealing with the Past of our country from the terrorist threat with every means at our disposal. 12. Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what factors he plans to take into account in taking further steps to secure progress in dealing with the past in Northern Ireland. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT [22159] BBC: Commonwealth Games 2014 Mr Paterson: The Government are committed to playing their full role in dealing with the past in Northern Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Ireland, working with the Northern Ireland Assembly. Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to his answer to The current absence of consensus on the issue of the the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire on past, and the views of victims and others who experienced 25 October 2010, Official Report, column 10, on the the troubles, are among the factors which are being Commonwealth Games 2014, what representations he taken into account. has made to the BBC Trust on the BBC’s decision to withdraw as host broadcaster of the 2014 Commonwealth Community Policing Games; and if he will make a statement. [22619]

13. Mr Tom Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey [holding answer 8 November 2010]: The Northern Ireland what assessment he has made of the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and likely effects of the outcomes of the comprehensive Sport has not made any representations to the BBC spending review on the capacity of community policing Trust on this matter. in Northern Ireland to reduce the threat to security from dissident activity. [22160] Departmental Travel Mr Paterson: Following the outcome of the 2010 Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, spending review, the Northern Ireland Executive is now Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate his Department aware of its funding allocation for the next four years. It has made of its expenditure on travel undertaken by (a) is for the Executive to decide what proportion of this him and (b) each other Minister in his Department in funding is allocated to PSNI. (i) September and (ii) October 2010. [21858] The Government are committed to ensuring the security of the people of Northern Ireland and it is essential that John Penrose: The total amount spent by the Department the Chief Constable has the appropriate resources to during September and October 2010 on all domestic allow him to ensure that he can continue to tackle the and foreign travel by Ministers in their official capacity threat. But we all acknowledge that that these resources is set out in the table. would be better invested in dealing with community policing and issues such as antisocial behaviour and Minister Month Estimated spend (£) drugs, rather than on those who impose their views through intimidation and violence. Secretary of State September 231 October 1,889 Public Sector Employment

Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ministerial team September 753 Ireland what recent discussions he has had with the October 630 Chancellor of the Exchequer on the likely effects of the recommendations of his paper on rebalancing the Northern This is an estimated cost from records currently held Ireland economy on the number of people employed in by the Department. Some invoices for travel have not the public sector in Northern Ireland. [22158] yet been received by the Department and could not therefore be included. Mr Swire: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with Treasury and Horse Racing: Betting Northern Ireland Ministers on these matters. The paper will be published for consultation before Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for the end of the year. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what representations on the horserace betting levy he has received from the Police Service of Northern Ireland Racing United campaign; and if he will take steps to ensure that all areas of the betting industry contribute Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for to that levy. [22492] Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Justice Minister on the resources John Penrose: I have received a number of representations, required by the Police Service of Northern Ireland in on behalf of racing, about the Horserace Betting Levy, 2011-12 to counter security threats. [22155] including those setting out the position of Racing United. 317W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 318W

The Government recently announced their intention best way to protect players from buying invalid tickets, to remove the Secretary of State’s role of determining or inadvertently putting themselves at risk of prosecution the levy scheme when the parties are unable to reach in foreign jurisdictions, was to introduce a new rule agreement. This will require changes to primary legislation preventing anyone from buying a UK lottery ticket and will not have effect until Parliament has approved abroad. such changes. However, I have now written to the NLC to ask them We will be discussing the options with the Levy to reconsider how we can allow armed forces personnel Board and the racing and betting industries, to ensure (and others) to participate from those countries where that funding for racing is fair and is collected from as purchasing UK lottery tickets is lawful. broad a base as possible.

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will include INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT in the scope of any future review of remote gambling Developing Countries: Education the potential contribution of all gambling operators to the horserace betting levy. [22493] Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for John Penrose: A consultation on the Regulatory Future International Development what steps his Department of Remote Gambling in Great Britain closed on 18 June is taking in conflict-affected countries to (a) reduce 2010. Since then, I have been examining the issues and the drop-out rate from and (b) increase access to identifying possible solutions. education for girls. [22815] I have also received advice from the Levy Board Mr O’Brien: As laid out in “The Coalition: our about securing fair contributions from overseas betting programme for government”, the UK Government will operators towards the Horserace Betting Levy. I hope prioritise increasing access to basic services, such as to be able to make an announcement in due course. health and education, for the world’s poorest people; Local Broadcasting: Television including a particular focus on the rights of women and girls. Girls who progress to secondary education have better maternal health, fewer and healthier children and Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for greater economic opportunities. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent progress his Department has made on encouraging commercially- The Department for International Development (DFID) is currently reviewing its aid programmes to determine sustainable local television. [23005] how we can achieve better value for money for the Mr Vaizey: Nicholas Shott, head of UK investment taxpayer, accelerate growth and achieve the millennium banking at Lazard, will shortly conclude his independent development goals. This includes a review of our emergency review on the conditions necessary for commercially response programme, which will look at the provision sustainable local television to emerge in the UK. of education in the immediate aftermath of conflict or natural disaster. This will be published on the Department’s website in due course, followed by a local media action plan due to With over half of primary aged children not enrolled be published in the new year. in school living in fragile and conflict-affected state—a total of 39 million children out of an estimated The recent BBC funding settlement has secured a 69 million worldwide—we recognise the need to promote total of £25 million to help fund the capital costs in education, particularly for girls, in fragile and conflict- 2013-14 for up to 20 local TV services, subject to any affected states. As such, the Government have committed necessary regulatory approval. The BBC will also commit to spend 30% of UK ODA on supporting conflict to ongoing funding of up to £5 million per annum from affected and fragile states and tackling the drivers of 2014-15 to acquire content from local services. instability by 2014-15. In addition, the Government will shortly lay an order to remove the local cross media ownership rules to Developing Countries: Tuberculosis promote a strong and secure local media industry. Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State National Lottery: Armed Forces for International Development how much funding his Department has allocated to international tuberculosis Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for control in each of the last five years. [23027] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 1 November 2010, Official Report, column 555W, Mr O’Brien: The Department for International on the National Lottery: armed forces, which countries Development (DFID) supports tuberculosis (TB) control in which personnel are serving are affected by the through a variety of bilateral channels, including funding restrictions on buying lottery tickets. [22206] for infectious diseases at country level, strengthening health systems in our partner countries to deliver TB John Penrose [holding answer 8 November 2010]: We programmes and funding research. Our direct bilateral do not currently hold a list of jurisdictions where it is spend on infectious diseases, including TB, increased illegal to buy UK national lottery tickets, although I from £101 million in 2005-06 to £117 million in 2009-10. understand that many countries outlaw participation in We also support TB control through multilateral channels, foreign lotteries and some prohibit any form of gambling. including the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, TB and Given that other countries’ laws are subject to change, Malaria. The UK has contributed £465 million to the the National Lottery Commission had decided that the Global Fund since 2005. Over the last five years 319W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 320W approximately 33% of proposals approved by the Global D1 and information on the total number of children Fund were TB-related and 15% of Global Fund funding looked-after as at 31 March is found in table A1. has been disbursed on TB programmes. We are unable Information on the number of children adopted and to accurately disaggregate DFID expenditure for TB the proportion of children who left care through adoption control from these wider interventions. is found in table D1. These tables can be found in the excel link titled ’England Summary tables’. Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much funding he Children In Care plans to allocate to international tuberculosis control in each year from 2011 to 2015. [23028] Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr O’Brien: The UK remains strongly committed to Education how many looked-after children (a) were reducing death and suffering from tuberculosis. The taken into care in each of the last five years, (b) were in Department for International Development is currently care on the latest period for which figures are available reviewing its aid programmes to determine how to and (c) had been in care for more than (i) three months, achieve better value for money for the taxpayer and (ii) six months and (iii) a year in the latest period for accelerate progress towards achieving all the millennium which figures are available. [22737] development goals. We will review our forward approach to tuberculosis once the bilateral and multilateral aid Tim Loughton: The number of looked-after children reviews are complete. taken into care in each of the last five years is available in table C4 in the Statistical First Release, Children Institute for Fiscal Studies Looked After by Local Authorities in England (including adoption and care leavers)—year ending 31 March Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010. This can be found at: International Development how much his Department spent on services provided by the Institute for Fiscal http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000960/ index.shtml Studies in each year from 2000-01 to 2007-08. [23500] The number of looked-after children at 31 March Mr Duncan: Payments made by the Department for 2010 can be found in table A1 of the same publication. International Development (DFID) to the Institute for Both tables can be found in the Excel link titled ’England Fiscal Studies since 2002-03 is as follows. Information Summary tables’. These tables contain the latest available prior to 2002-03 is not captured in DFID’s central information. accounting system and, therefore, cannot be provided The requested information regarding the duration of without incurring disproportionate cost. time spent in care is shown in the following table: Children looked-after at 31 March for (a) over three months, (b) over Amount (£) six months, and (c) over one year, at 31 March 20101, 2, 3, year ending 2002-03 0 31 March 2010, coverage: England 2003-04 3,094 Duration of time in care Number 2004-05 0 Over three months 58,300 2005-06 0 Over six months 53,100 2007-08 95 Over one year 44,300 2008-09 0 1 England figures have been rounded to the nearest 100. 2009-10 0 2 Figures exclude children looked-after under an agreed series of short-term placements. 3 These figures are presented on a cumulative basis e.g. a child that is included in the ‘over one year’ category has also been included in the EDUCATION ‘over six months’ category. Source: Children in Care SSDA 903. Departmental Reviews John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many children (a) were taken into care (excluding respite care), (b) left care and (c) were Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education adopted in each of the last five years; how many were what departmental policy reviews his Department has in care on 31 March 2010; and what proportion of undertaken since 6 May 2010; on what date each such children left care through adoption in each of the last review (a) was announced and (b) is expected to five years. [18226] publish its findings; what estimate he has made of the cost of each such review; who has been appointed to Tim Loughton: The requested information is available lead each such review; to what remuneration each review as part of the Statistical First Release, Children Looked leader is entitled; how many (i) full-time equivalent civil After by Local Authorities in England (including adoption servants and (ii) seconded staff are working on each and care leavers)—year ending 31 March 2010. This can such review; from which organisations such staff have be found at: been seconded; and how much on average such seconded http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000960/ staff will be paid for their work on the review. [21886] index.shtml Information on the number of children taken into Tim Loughton: The Department for Education is care can be found in table C4, information on the leading six policy reviews, all announced since 6 May number of children who have left care is found in table 2010. All are still under way. Details on publication 321W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 322W dates, costs and staffing levels for each review follow civil servants working on the review, and no individuals (please note that secondees are defined as staff seconded have been seconded from outside Whitehall to assist to the reviews from outside of Whitehall). with the review. 1. Munro review 5. Review of the Children’s Commissioner The review was announced on 10 June 2010 and is The review was announced on 12 July 2010. The intended to report in April 2011, with an interim report expected date of report is end of November 2010. The in January 2011. A first report was published on 1 October cost of the review is estimated to be around £50,000. 2010 and can be found at: The review is being led by John Dunford, who is http://www.education.gov.uk/munroreview/downloads/ being remunerated at a rate of £500 per day for carrying TheMunroReviewofChildProtection-Part%20one.pdf out the review, and is entitled to claim expenses. Our Our current estimate of the cost of the review is £100,000. expectation is that the role will take approximately Professor Eileen Munro of the London School of 40 days. His remuneration is included in the overall Economics and Political Science (LSE) is leading the budget of £50,000. There are three full-time equivalent review. She is supported by Dr David Lane, an expert in civil servants working on the review, and no individuals systems theory. Professor Munro and Dr Lane are paid have been seconded from outside Whitehall to assist by the LSE, and the Department is reimbursing the with the review. LSE for 80% of Professor Munro’s salary for the duration 6. Children in Need census review of the review and 100% of Dr Lane’s for one term, and The review was announced on 3 August 2010 and is they are also both entitled to claim reasonable travel expected to report in March 2011. The cost of the expenses. There are 16.15 full-time equivalent civil servants review is estimated to be around £7,000. working on the review, which is focused on improving frontline practice in child protection. Two people have The review is being led by Nigel Nicholds from been seconded from outside Whitehall—one full-time Norfolk local authority, who is not being paid but is and one part-time—from Staffordshire county council entitled to expenses. There are 0.1 full-time equivalent and the National Children’s Bureau. The National civil servants working on the review and secondments Children’s Bureau secondee continues to be paid by from outside Whitehall are yet to be confirmed. them at no cost to the Department. The local authority employee is a Grade 16 (SCP 71-73) which corresponds to a current salary scale of £77,682 to £81,567. The Education: Young People local authority is continuing to pay their salary and the Department for Education is reimbursing them. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 2. Review of vocational education if he will issue guidance to local authorities on the The review was announced on 9 September 2010 and staffing levels necessary to deliver their statutory is expected to report in spring 2011. The cost of the responsibilities for (a) safeguarding, (b) well-being review is yet to be estimated. and (c) education of children and young people. [21354] The review is being led by Professor Alison Wolf, and her employer (King’s College, London) is being reimbursed Tim Loughton: We have no plans to issue such guidance. for her time. Professor Wolf is entitled to claim expenses. Local authorities themselves are best placed to make There are three full-time equivalent civil servants working decisions about the staffing levels required to deliver on the review, including analysts, and no individuals their responsibilities, in the light of local needs and have been seconded from outside Whitehall to assist circumstances and the available resources. with the review. 3. Capital review Foster Care: Per Capita Costs The review was announced on 5 July 2010 and will be completed by the end of the calendar year. The cost of the review is estimated to be up to £100,000. Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the annual average cost to social services of placing The review is being led by Sebastian James, Group a child in foster care was in the last five years. [22355] Operations Director of DSG International, who is not being paid by the Department but is entitled to claim essential expenses. There are 11 civil servants working Tim Loughton [holding answer 8 November 2010]: on the review. No individuals have been seconded from The information is not held in the format requested. outside Whitehall to assist with the review. The following table shows expenditure on fostering 4. Early years foundation stage review services in England in the financial years 2004-05 to The review was announced on 6 July 2010 and is 2008-09. expected to report in spring 2011. The cost of the Expenditure on fostering services1 in England: 2004-05 to 2008-092,3 review is estimated to be around £100,000, with an £ additional amount of up to £250,000 covering associated Expenditure on Expenditure on Expenditure per research. fostering services fostering services week on fostering (gross)4 (net)4 services5 The review is being led by Dame Clare Tickell. Dame Clare is chief executive of Action for Children, so DFE 2004-05 880,000,000 880,000,000 384 is paying a salary reimbursement to them for her time 2005-06 960,000,000 960,000,000 420 between July 2010 and March 2011 (up to an estimated 2006-07 1,050,000,000 1,050,000,000 463 £21,520 plus VAT). There are seven full-time equivalent 2007-08 1,110,000,000 1,110,000,000 489 323W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 324W

Expenditure on fostering services1 in England: 2004-05 to 2008-092,3 Schools set up as charitable bodies that meet the £ definition of a charity for tax purposes are eligible for Expenditure on Expenditure on Expenditure per charitable tax reliefs in the same way as other charities. fostering services fostering services week on fostering Non-charitable private schools are eligible for tax reliefs 4 4 5 (gross) (net) services as for any other business. 2008-09 1,130,000,000 1,080,000,000 — 1 Fostering services includes all in-house provision, fostering services Pupil Exclusions purchased externally, fees and allowances paid to foster parents and the costs of social worker and other support staff who support foster Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for carers. For example, mainstay placements; link placements; permanence placements; temporary/respite fostering; placements with relatives, Education in how many mainstream maintained other than a parent, under foster care; arrangements; placed with schools more than 25 per cent. of pupils have received a approved prospective adopters pending the making of an adoption fixed-period exclusion in the latest period for which order under the Adoption and Children Act 2002; associated independent figures are available. [20237] visitor costs and relevant contact payments. 2 Expenditure data for 2004-05 to 2007-08 are drawn from PSSEX1 data published on the Information Centre for Health and Social Care Mr Gibb: In 2008/09 there were six mainstream schools, website. all state-funded secondary schools (1) where more than 3 Expenditure data for 2008-09 are drawn from Table A1 of the local 25% of solely registered pupils (2) received a fixed authority Section 251. period exclusion. 4 Figures rounded to nearest £10 million. 5 Per week figures are not currently available for the financial year (1) Includes local authority maintained schools and academies. 2008-09. (2) Headcount of solely registered pupils has been taken from January 2009 census. Schools which were not open at the January GCSE census have been excluded from the analysis.

Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Schools: Violence Education (1) how many and what proportion of maintained mainstream schools did not enter a single Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for pupil for a chemistry GCSE examination in the latest Education how many (a) pupils and (b) teachers have period for which figures are available; [20080] been admitted to hospital as a result of violent attacks (2) how many and what proportion of maintained within schools in each year for which figures are available. mainstream schools did not enter a single pupil for a [20238] modern language GCSE examination in the latest period for which figures are available; [20081] Mr Gibb: The Department for Education does not collect or hold any data on injuries in school. (3) how many and what proportion of maintained mainstream schools did not enter a single pupil for a The Health and Safety Executive holds data on injuries physics GCSE examination in the latest period for reported under RIDDOR (the Reporting of Injuries, which figures are available. [20082] Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995). These include school-related injuries affecting employees Mr Gibb: Of the 3,083 maintained mainstream schools and members of the public, including pupils. that had more than 10 pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 RIDDOR also requires the reporting of injuries resulting and were published in the 2009 Secondary Schools from acts of violence. However, only physical injuries Achievement and Attainment Tables, 1,461 (47%) did resulting from acts of violence suffered by people at not have any entries in GCSE chemistry, 25 (1%) did work are reportable. For the purposes of accident recording, not have any entries in a modern foreign language school pupils are categorised as members of the public, GCSE and 1,467 (48%) did not have any entries in ie not ‘at work’. Therefore, acts of violence to school GCSE physics. pupils are not reportable under RIDDOR as a discrete category within the overall figures on injuries to pupils. Home Education The coding of injury notifications under RIDDOR does not record whether the injured person was admitted Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of to hospital. State for Education what (a) A level and (b) GCSE The following table details the number of reported grades were awarded to home schooled children in the injuries to teachers involving acts of violence since latest period for which figures are available; and if he 2001. These include injuries to support staff. will make a statement. [18841] Reported injuries to teachers involving acts of violence 2001/02 to 2009/101 Mr Gibb [holding answer 21 October 2010]: The Severity of injury information requested is not held centrally by the Reported non- Department. We have no plans to collect this information. fatal major Reported over- All reported injuries 3-day injuries injuries

Private Education: Tax Relief 2001/02 26 145 171 2002/03 32 186 218 Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for 2003/04 47 173 220 Education what his policy is on tax relief for private 2004/05 43 211 254 schools. [22311] 2005/06 39 235 274 2006/07 35 210 245 Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. 2007/08 35 204 239 325W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 326W

Reported injuries to teachers involving acts of violence 2001/02 to of the Diplomatic Service were educated at (i) Oxford 2009/101 or Cambridge universities and (ii) independent schools. Severity of injury [22142] Reported non- fatal major Reported over- All reported Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office injuries 3-day injuries injuries does not hold this data centrally on its employees. The 2008/09 29 225 254 information requested could be provided only at 2009/101 44 207 251 disproportionate cost. 1 Provisional. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office aims to recruit Notes: a talented and diverse work force that reflects the society 1. Injuries are reported and defined under the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations (RIDDOR) 1995. we serve and our recruitment policies are designed to The annual basis of reporting is the planning year from 1 April to encourage applications from the widest possible range 31 March. of backgrounds. All external recruitment into the Foreign 2. The information available under RIDDOR includes three categories and Commonwealth Office is based on merit, and all of severity of injury: fatal injuries, defined major injuries and other campaigns must be fair and open. injuries to workers leading to more than three days absence (over-3-day). There are two categories of severity for members of the public: fatal In addition, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s and non-fatal injuries that cause a person to be taken from the site of internal promotion and progression schemes are firmly the accident to hospital. Only physical injuries resulting from acts of meritocratic, based on objective and consistent criteria violence suffered by people at work are reportable as a defined injury against which all candidates are assessed. under RIDDOR. Physical injuries resulting from acts of violence suffered by members of the public are not reportable. 3. Teachers are identified using Standard Occupational Classification European Parliament (SOC). This system is used in UK official statistics for classifying workers by the type of job they are engaged in. The latest version is SOC2000, which has been used in HSE statistics since planning year Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 2002/03. Prior to this SOC90 was used. and Commonwealth Affairs what recent estimate he Written Questions: Government Responses has made of the cost to the public purse of holding 12 plenary sessions of the European Parliament in Strasbourg. [21896] John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he plans to respond to question 18226, Mr Lidington: Estimates suggest that having two on children taken into care or adopted, tabled on seats for the European Parliament currently costs the 14 October 2010. [20343] British taxpayer at least an additional £28 million per year. However the full cost to the EU budget of the Tim Loughton [holding answer 1 November 2010]: A European Parliament sessions in Strasbourg is not publicly response has been issued to the hon. Member today. available, since this is not itemised separately in the European Parliament’s budget.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Gibraltar: Spain Chinese: Falun Gong Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for he has had with his Spanish counterpart on (a) the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports actions of the Spanish authorities at the La Linea he has received on the policy of the Chinese Government border crossing and (b) delays to UK- and Gibraltar- towards practitioners of Falun Gong. [22913] registered vehicles at that crossing. [22232]

Mr Jeremy Browne: We raised this issue at the UK/China Mr Lidington: We have raised our concerns about the Human Rights Dialogue, held in Beijing in March Mayor of La Linea’s earlier proposed plans to impose a 2010. We asked for numbers of Falun Gong practitioners charge on traffic entering/leaving Gibraltar with Spanish currently serving in Re-education Through Labour (RTL) Ministers, making it clear that this is an issue for them camps. The Chinese side reported that they were currently to resolve. Our priority is to keep the traffic flowing at implementing a pilot of a community correction scheme the border. We believe that the Spanish Government with a view to replacing Re-education Through Labour shares this goal. They have reassured us that EU and camps. They stressed that the scheme was only being Spanish law will be fully respected and that they do not piloted at present. consider that the Mayor of La Linea’s earlier proposed We continue to have serious concerns about the actions would be legal. The Mayor has not implemented mistreatment of Falun Gong adherents and regularly his proposals. However we continue to keep in close raise this issue with the Chinese Government. We have contact with the Government of Gibraltar and to monitor regularly urged the Chinese Government to reform the the situation at the border. RTL system on the grounds that it lacks judicial oversight and contravenes international human rights standards. Iran: Baha’i Faith

Diplomatic Service Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign he has made to the government of Iran on the detention and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of (a) of members of the Baha’i community in that country; ambassadors and high commissioners and (b) members and if he will make a statement. [20079] 327W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 328W

Alistair Burt: We remain concerned for the Baha’i national and we are therefore constrained in the attention community in Iran. I met the Iranian ambassador on 20 we can give to this. The UK has a strong record of September to discuss this and a range of other human lobbying the Israeli Government hard on issues regarding rights issues. I made it clear that the UK remains human rights and those directly related to our foreign extremely concerned by the sentencing of the seven policy objectives. Therefore, our capacity to lobby on Baha’i leaders to 20 years imprisonment, which we specific cases, especially on behalf of non-British Nationals, understand has now been reduced to 10 years. As my is extremely limited. right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said in his statement of 11 August 2010, these sentences are Taiwan: International Civil Aviation Organisation unacceptable. Both the UK and the international community deplore the victimisation of the Baha’i faith Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign by the Iranian state. We will continue to remind Iran of and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on Taiwan the international commitments it has freely signed up joining the International Civil Aviation Authority. to, and urge the Iranian Government to cease its harassment of the Baha’i minority, and to respect the rights of all [22513] minority groups. Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government support Taiwan’s Middle East: Peace Negotiations practical participation in international organisations where this does not require statehood. Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his (a) Israeli and (b) Palestinian counterparts on the Israeli Government’s proposal for ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE a compulsory oath of loyalty; and if he will make a statement. [23034] Electricity Generation Alistair Burt: We attach importance to the values set out in ’s Declaration of Independence and basic Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for laws. We are concerned by anything that detracts from Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has these and will be watching this debate carefully. We do made of the electricity production technologies which not want to see steps to prejudice Israel’s non-Jewish would (a) enable affordable domestic and industrial citizens or to discriminate against people on the basis of prices and (b) enable the UK to meet its emissions their religion. reduction targets. [22001] Mordechai Vanunu Gregory Barker: The following table is taken from Mott Macdonald (2010) and gives levelised cost estimates Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign (average generation cost per megawatt-hour) for new and Commonwealth Affairs if he will ask the build plants in the main large-scale electricity generation Government of Israel to release Mordechai Vanunu. technologies in the UK, including both fossil fuel and [22507] low carbon plant, at current engineering, procurement and construction (EPC) contract prices. Alistair Burt [holding answer of 8 November 2010]: It should be noted that for the purposes of presentation, While we are concerned by the developments in this the table only gives either ‘FOAK’ (first-of-a-kind) prices case and monitor the situation, Mr Vanunu is not a UK or ‘NOAK’ (nth-of-a-kind) prices for each technology.

Case 1: 10% discount rate, 2009 project start at today’s EPC prices, with mixed FOAK/NOAK Gas ASC Coal CCGT Coal IGCC with with Coal with Offshore Offshore Nuclear Gas CCS ASC CCS IGCC CCS Onshore wind wind R3 PWR Levelised cost CCGT (FOAK) Coal (FOAK) (FOAK) (FOAK) wind (FOAK) (FOAK) (FOAK)

Capital costs 12.4 29.8 33.4 74.1 61.7 82.0 79.2 124.1 144.6 77.3 Fixed operating 3.7 7.7 8.6 18.6 9.7 17.7 14.6 36.7 45.8 12.2 costs Variable 2.3 3.6 2.2 4.7 3.4 4.6 — — — 2.1 operating costs Fuel costs 46.9 65.0 19.9 28.7 20.3 28.3 — — — 5.3 Carbon Costs 15.1 2.1 40.3 6.5 39.6 5.5 ———— Decomm and —————————2.1 waste fund

CO2 transport —4.3—9.6—9.5———— and storage Steamrevenue—————————— Total levelised 80.3 112.5 104.5 142.1 134.6 147.6 93.9 160.9 190.5 99.0 cost Source: Mott Macdonald (2010), UK Electricity Generation Costs Update, available at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/statistics/projections/71-uk-electricity-generation-costs-update-.pdf 329W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 330W

As new technologies are deployed it is likely that 2017 with the assumption that all technologies have costs will fall due to learning. The following table sets reached ‘nth of a kind’ status. out the estimated levelised costs for projects started in

Case 5: 10% discount rate, 2017 start at projected EPC prices, all NOAK Gas ASC Coal CCGT Coal IGCC Gas with ASC with Coal with Onshore Offshore Offshore Nuclear Levelised cost CCGT CCS Coal CCS IGCC CCS wind wind wind R3 PWR

Capital costs 11.2 20.7 28.7 47.8 33.7 46.5 71.7 89.4 97.0 49.6 Fixed operating 3.7 6.0 8.6 13.8 8.0 12.3 — 23.0 30.9 9.1 costs Variable 2.3 3.6 2.2 3.7 2.7 3.6 — — — 1.8 operating costs Fuel costs 49.8 64.7 19.9 27.6 19.6 27.2 — — — 5.2 Carbon costs 29.6 4.1 73.8 11.4 72.0 10.0 — — — - Decomm and —————————2.1 waste fund

CO2 transport —3.5—7.6—7.5———— and storage Steamrevenue—————————— Total levelised 96.5 102.6 133.2 111.9 136.0 107.1 86.3 112.4 127.9 67.8 cost Source: Mott Macdonald (2010), UK Electricity Generation Costs Update, available at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/statistics/projections/71-uk-electricity-generation-costs-update-.pdf

It should be noted that the estimates of levelised costs individual installations in homes by 2020. Many of the for different types of electricity generation are highly 4.2 million businesses in England could also benefit sensitive to the assumptions used for capital costs, fuel from the Green Deal. and EU ETS allowance prices, operating costs, load The Department for Energy and Climate Change factor, and other drivers. Meaning that there is significant does not have a detailed assessment of the potential in uncertainty around these estimates. East Hampshire at this stage, however it is anticipated that householders and businesses across all tenures will Housing: Insulation be able to benefit from the new framework. Wind Power: Cost-effectiveness Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether he has made an David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate of the number of (a) homes and (b) Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has businesses in (i) England, (ii) Hampshire and (iii) East made of the cost-efficiency of producing carbon-free Hampshire constituency which would be eligible for electricity from onshore wind farms compared with (a) support for (A) loft insulation top-up, (B) cavity wall nuclear power and (b) other methods; and if he will insulation, (C) internal solid wall insulation and (D) make a statement. [22802] external solid wall insulation under the proposed Charles Hendry: The following table is taken from Green Deal. [22272] Mott Macdonald (2010) and gives levelised cost estimates (average generation cost per megawatt-hour) for new Gregory Barker: The Green Deal has the potential to build plants in the main large-scale electricity generation improve the energy efficiency of up to 22 million homes technologies in the UK, including onshore wind, offshore in England and will generate new business opportunities. wind and nuclear, at current engineering, procurement It is estimated that the Green Deal could drive 14 million and construction (EPC) contract prices.

Table 1: Mott Macdonald (2010) levelised costs (Case 1: 10% discount rate, 2009 project start at today’s EPC prices, with mixed FOAK/NOAK) Gas ASC Coal CCGT coal IGCC with with Coal with Offshore Offshore Nuclear Gas CCS— ASC CCS— IGCC— CCS— Onshore wind— wind PWR— Levelised cost CCGT FOAK coal FOAK FOAK FOAK wind FOAK R3—FOAK FOAK

Capital costs 12.4 29.8 33.4 74.1 61.7 82.0 79.2 124.1 144.6 77.3 Fixed operating costs 3.7 7.7 8.6 18.6 9.7 17.7 14.6 36.7 45.8 12.2 Variable operating 2.33.62.24.73.44.6———2.1 costs Fuel costs 46.9 65.0 19.9 28.7 20.3 28.3 — — — 5.3 Carbon costs 15.1 2.1 40.3 6.5 39.6 5.5———— Decomm and waste —————————2.1 fund 331W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 332W

Table 1: Mott Macdonald (2010) levelised costs (Case 1: 10% discount rate, 2009 project start at today’s EPC prices, with mixed FOAK/NOAK) Gas ASC Coal CCGT coal IGCC with with Coal with Offshore Offshore Nuclear Gas CCS— ASC CCS— IGCC— CCS— Onshore wind— wind PWR— Levelised cost CCGT FOAK coal FOAK FOAK FOAK wind FOAK R3—FOAK FOAK

CO2 transport and —4.3—9.6—9.5———— storage Steamrevenue—————————— Total levelised cost 80.3 112.5 104.5 142.1 134.6 147.6 93.9 160.9 190.5 99.0 Source: Mott Macdonald (2010), UK Electricity Generation Costs Update, available at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/Statistics/Projections/71-uk-electricity-generation-costs-update.pdf

It should be noted that for the purposes of presentation, Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for the table only gives either ‘FOAK’ (first-of-a-kind) prices Transport what discussions his Department has had or ‘NOAK’ (nth-of-a-kind) prices for each technology. with Southeastern Railway on interchange facilities On offshore wind, for example, it shows offshore wind with Crossrail services at Abbey Wood station; and ‘FOAK’ prices, whereas the round 2 technology may be what step-free interchange facilities he expects to be considered to have progressed towards ‘NOAK’ prices. available in that station when it is rebuilt. [21772] Mott Macdonald estimate ‘NOAK’ offshore wind costs at £125/MWh (10% discount rate, 2009 project start at Mrs Villiers [holding answer 4 November 2010]: Crossrail today’s EPC prices). Ltd is working with Network Rail, which is responsible for the construction of the Crossrail. On Network Works, including Abbey Wood station, Network Rail is leading the discussions with Southeastern on the impacts TRANSPORT on and improvements to the railway as a result of these works. Airports: Thames Estuary The Crossrail station at Abbey Wood is expected to include full provision for people with restricted mobility, Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for with lifts from ground level and road over-bridge access Transport what recent representations he has received to ticket halls and the Crossrail platforms. on the development of an international airport on the Hoo Peninsula, Medway. [20347] Crossrail: Finance

Mrs Villiers [holding answer 1 November 2010]: None Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for directly, although we have received several letters about Transport (1) how much funding he plans to allocate to possible airport development in and around the Thames Crossrail in each year of the spending review period; Estuary. The Department has no plans for a new airport [22821] in the Thames Estuary, nor any other part of Medway (2) what proportion of his Department’s budget he or . plans to allocate to Crossrail in each year of the Our priority is to get the most out of existing airport spending review period; and what proportion of that infrastructure in the South East, which is why I am chairing budget has been allocated to Crossrail in each year the taskforce announced by my right hon. Friend the since the inception of that project. [22822] Secretary of State in his written ministerial statement Mrs Villiers: As set out in the ‘Spending Review 2010: on 15 June 2010, Official Report, column 48WS, to Transport for London funding agreement’ letter from improve operations at the major South East airports. the Secretary of State to the Mayor of London of Blue Badge Scheme 20 October 2010, published on the Department for Transport’s website, the funding allocated by the Secretary of State will be as follows: Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he plans to review the operation of 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 the Blue Badge scheme for parking concessions. [22233] Secretary of State’s 517 1,205 1,123 1,082 Norman Baker: The Department for Transport is Crossrail capital grant currently reviewing the Blue Badge scheme. An (£ million) announcement on how we plan to take the scheme Percentage of DFT 4999 forward will be made shortly. budget Crossrail: Abbey Wood Crossrail funding represented 2% of the Department’s budget in 2010-11, 1% in 2009-10 and below 1% in Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for earlier years. Transport in which year he expects the Crossrail station Ferries: Highlands and Islands at Abbey Wood to be operational. [22612] Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mrs Villiers [holding answer 8 November 2010]: Under what steps he plans to take to ensure adequate marine the revised programme for the construction of the emergency coverage for the Highlands and Islands following central tunnels, we expect that phased introduction of the removal of the Anglian Prince tug boat in 2011. Crossrail services will commence from 2018. [21773] 333W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 334W

Mike Penning [holding answer 4 November 2010]: Mrs Villiers [holding answer 26 October 2010]: On The current contract for the provision of emergency 20 October 2010, the Chancellor announced that towing vessels at public expense will not be renewed electrification of the lines between Manchester, Liverpool, when it expires in September 2011. Between now and Preston and Blackpool would go ahead. We are working the end of the contract, the Maritime and Coastguard with Network Rail to determine the timetable for the Agency intends to work with the shipping and wider completion of these schemes, and will make an maritime industries, and also with local interested parties, announcement in due course. local authorities and the Scottish Government, to explore options for ensuring the effective operation of commercial Railways: Fares arrangements could operate in the future. Highways Agency: Finance Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he has made a recent estimate of the Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for likely effect on his Department’s progress on carbon Transport what estimate he has made of the cost to the dioxide emission targets of proposed increases in rail public purse of schemes in the supported (a) development fares. [20358] and (b) pre-qualification pool for major schemes; and what his Department’s budget is for major schemes for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for (i) 2010-11 and (ii) each of the three subsequent years. Transport what assessment has been made of the likely [22823] effects on the environment of his proposals to increase the cap on regulated rail fares to three per cent. above Norman Baker: The total of the most recently requested the retail price index for three years from 2012. [20576] or approved Department for Transport contribution for all the schemes in the three pools, and the maximum Mrs Villiers: The Government are committed to ensuring amount that would be expected to fall within the spending that transport plays a full role in delivering the UK’s review period is as follows: climate change targets. We will continue to monitor the carbon impact of policy and investment decisions to £ million ensure we remain on course to deliver those targets. Of which maximum DFT contribution falling within the Emissions of greenhouse gases from the transport requested or spending review sector are projected to fall significantly over the coming previously approved period decade, in large part as a result of improvements to the fuel efficiency of new vehicles and the uptake of low Supported pool 408 325 carbon fuels. Development pool 930 700 Pre-qualification pool 1,246 817 The Department for Transport has not made a detailed estimate of the likely effects of increases in rail fares on However, we will be inviting revised funding bids transport emissions. Although the announced fare increases from the local authorities concerned with a view to may encourage some modal shift away from rail, the reducing the overall call on Department for Transport overall impact on carbon emissions is likely to be small. funding, and before deciding by the end of 2011 which The fare increase was one element of the spending of these schemes should be taken forward for funding. review announcement. Other measures such as the local The Department is not able to make a reliable and up sustainable transport fund and the package of support to date estimate of the total public sector cost including for ultra low carbon vehicles are expected to lead to local authorities’ own contributions, but will be seeking reductions in carbon emissions. this information as part of the invitation to authorities to submit Best and Final Funding Bids (for schemes in Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Supported Pool) and Expressions of Interest (for Transport (1) whether he has made an estimate of the other schemes) by the end of December. likely effect on the number of car journeys of proposed The Department’s budget for local authority major increases in rail fares; [20359] schemes in 2010-11 and the spending review years is as (2) whether he has made an estimate of the likely follows. This includes provision for existing committed effect on the number of passenger coach journeys of schemes, not mentioned above. the proposed increases in rail fares. [20360]

£ million Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has not 2010-11 494 made a detailed estimate of the likely effects of increases 2011-12 418 in rail fares on other modes. 2012-13 364 Although the announced fare increases may encourage 2013-14 335 some modal shift away from rail, the overall impact on 2014-15 427 other modes is likely to be small.

Railways: Electrification Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate his Department has made of Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the likely effect on rail passenger numbers of the Transport what timetable has been set for the electrification proposed increase in the cap on regulated rail fares to of the (a) Manchester to Liverpool and (b) Manchester- three per cent. above the retail price index for three Preston-Blackpool line. [19796] years from 2012. [20577] 335W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 336W

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what estimate his Department has made Transport what timetable he has set for the implementation of the likely effect on the level of passenger rail use of of the Northern Hub initiative. [22485] an RPI+3 formula for fares; [20356] (2) what estimate he has made of the likely effect on Mrs Villiers [holding answer 8 November 2010]: As the number of passengers using rail services of the part of the preparation for the next high level output proposed increases in rail fares. [20361] specification, we will consider whether a Northern Hub scheme can be funded and what progress can be made on the project during the next Network Rail control Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport expects period (2014-15 to 2019-20). It would be premature to that passenger journeys will continue to increase during set a formal timetable for the project at this stage. the period from 2012 to 2014 when fares are due to rise However, officials at the Department for Transport by 3% above the retail price index (RPI) of inflation. It continue to work with Network Rail, train operators is estimated that the level of patronage will be up to 4% and GMPTE on developing the case for the Northern lower than it would have been had the cap remained at Hub. I have visited Manchester for discussions on this RPI+1%. proposal.

Railways: North West Road Traffic: Morecambe

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent estimate he has made of the cost Transport if he will assess the potential effects on traffic to the economy of rail congestion in principal cities in levels on trunk roads in Lancaster and Morecambe the Northern Hub. [22298] constituency of Lancashire County Council’s Faber Maunsell plan. [22624] Mrs Villiers: The aim of the Northern Hub study was to identify a preferred value for money option which Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has would deliver economic benefits to the north of England no plans to assess the potential effects of Lancashire through improving rail connectivity across the north county council’s Faber Maunsell plan on traffic levels and increasing the capacity of the rail network to on trunk roads in Lancaster and Morecambe. The accommodate long-term growth. Secretary of State announced on 26 October 2010, Official Report, columns 177-79, that it will fund the Rail congestion was not considered an issue in the Heysham-M6 Link Road scheme, subject to a revised Northern Hub study or in the subsequent draft northern funding bid from Lancashire county council and the route utilisation strategy (RUS) so no estimate has been satisfactory completion of all remaining statutory made to the cost of the economy arising from it. procedures.

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Roads: Safety Transport what assessment he has made of the economic effect on (a) the North West and (b) Yorkshire and the Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Humber region of the Northern Hub. [22442] Transport how many staff in his Department were in posts with responsibility for road safety issues in October Mrs Villiers [holding answer 8 November 2010]: Network 2010; and how many such posts he expects there to be in Rail’s study into the strategic options available calculated October 2011. [22593] that the preferred Northern Hub option would add £4.23 billion benefits to the north of England over a Norman Baker: It is impossible to identify precisely 60 year period. This figure was not disaggregated between the number of staff within the central Department with regions of the north of England. responsibility for road safety issues. While we have dedicated teams with road safety responsibility—principally Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the road user safety team, agency policy and sponsorship Transport what capital allocations his Department has functions, and the team responsible for negotiating made for the implementation of the Northern Hub for vehicle safety standards—road safety is also an important each year of the spending review. [22443] goal for many other parts of the Department (including but not exclusively the marketing team, the traffic management team, and the walking and cycling team). Mrs Villiers [holding answer 8 November 2010]: As part of the preparation for the next high level output The central Department and its Executive Agencies specification, we will consider whether a Northern Hub recorded the following full-time equivalent (FTE) posts scheme can be funded and what progress can be made who are responsible exclusively or mainly for working on the project during the next Network Rail control on road safety issues: period (2014-15 to 2019-20). Road safety posts Permanent Non-permanent Since the spending review only covers the period up to 2015, no capital funding has been specifically allocated DfT(c) 131.5 3 to the Northern Hub as yet. However, officials at the DSA 2450 5 Department for Transport continue to work with Network DVLA 0 0 Rail along with GMPTE on developing the case for the GCDA 0 0 Northern Hub. I have visited Manchester for discussions HA — — on this proposal. MCA 0 0 337W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 338W

John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Road safety posts Permanent Non-permanent Transport pursuant to the oral statement of 26 October VCA 131 1 2010, Official Report, columns 177-79, on transport VOSA 2,336.97 46.18 (investment), what estimate he has made of the cost of Total 5049.47 55.18 the local authority major schemes in the development Notes: pool. [21045] 1. Figures as at end October 2010. 2. DfTc. Covers some posts in Road and Vehicle Safety and Standards Directorate and Transformation Licensing Logistics and Sponsorship. Norman Baker [holding answer 3 November 2010]: Other posts with responsibility for road safety issues exist in other The total of the most recently requested or approved directorates. Department for Transport contribution for all the schemes 3. The table gives total employee numbers for HA, DSA and VOSA in the Development Pool is around £930 million, of given that all these agencies have road safety as a core concern. which we estimate that no more than £700 million 4. VCA consider 131.5 permanent and one non-permanent member of staff have road safety as a core concern. would fall in the spending review period. The Department is in the process of reviewing its However we will be inviting revised funding bids structure in light of the Government’s spending review. from the local authorities concerned with a view to Future staff numbers will be determined as part of that reducing the overall call on Department for Transport process. funding, and before deciding by the end of 2011 which of these schemes should be taken forward for funding. Transport for London: Grants

Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much his Department allocated in grant CABINET OFFICE to Transport for London (TFL) for 2010-11 (a) prior to and (b) after his Department’s in-year spending Civil Servants: Recruitment reductions; and what such funding his Department plans to allocate (i) in general grant, (ii) to Crossrail, (iii) to Metronet and (iv) under each other grant flow to Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet TFL in each of the next three years. [22824] Office how many (a) applicants and (b) acceptances of each (i) gender, (ii) ethnicity and (iii) socio-economic Mrs Villiers: Prior to in-year savings, funding for group there were to the Civil Service Fast Stream in Transport for London in 2010-11 consisted of: each year since 2000. [22144] GLA transport grant of £2,871,589,000 Two capital grants towards costs associated with the former Mr Maude: Data on the social class of applicants and Metronet PPP, totalling £392,500,000 appointees to the Fast Stream are not available. Monitoring London overground grant of £24,932,347 of the socio-economic background of applicants and A small number of other smaller payments appointees will begin with effect from the 2011 entry As a result of in-year savings, total funding for TfL in competition. 2010-11 was reduced by £108,000,000. Data on the gender and ethnicity of applicants and The Secretary of State set out his intentions in relation appointees are available in the annual Fast Stream to funding for Transport for London, including Crossrail reports, published on the Cabinet Office website at: and the companies into which the former Metronet PPP www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-cabinet-office/plans- contracts have been transferred, for the years 2011-12 performance/faststream.aspx to 2014-15 in a letter to the Mayor of London dated 20 October. This letter has been published on the Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Department’s website at: Office what proportion of successful applicants to the http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/letters/tflfunding/ Civil Service Fast Stream in each year since 2001 were educated at (a) Oxford and (b) Cambridge University. Transport: Finance [22145] John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the oral statement of 26 October Mr Maude: The proportion of successful applicants 2010, Official Report, columns 177-79, on transport to the Fast Stream since 2001 who were educated at (investment), what guidance he has issued to local Oxford and Cambridge universities is as follows. authorities submitting revised bids on local authority Total major schemes in the supported pool. [21043] Oxford Cambridge appointees

Norman Baker [holding answer 3 November 2010]: In 2001 14.01% (59) 14.01% (59) 421 addition to the oral statement the Department for Transport 2002 14.60% (60) 12.90% (53) 411 provided Members with a document entitled ‘Investment 2003 17.65% (90) 18.04% (92) 510 in Local Major Transport Schemes’ which sets out our 2004 19.27% (90) 16.49% (77) 467 proposals in more detail, including the submission of 2005 16.66% (84) 13.10% (66) 504 revised bids. This document has been sent to local 2006 17.44% (83) 13.66% (65) 476 authorities with schemes involved in the process including 2007 18.42% (70) 12.90% (49) 380 those in the supported pool. We are already in discussion 2008 15.44% (88) 13.68% (78) 570 with these authorities and will provide them with further 2009 16.53% (104) 9.70% (61) 629 detailed guidance very shortly. 339W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 340W

Departmental Redundancy Government Departments: Photography

Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr : To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what estimate he has made of the number of Office how many photographers are employed by redundancies arising from the spending reductions proposed Government Departments. [22666] in the comprehensive spending review in respect of (a) his Department, (b) its non-departmental public bodies Mr Maude [holding answer 8 November 2010]: This and (c) other public bodies which are dependent on his information is not collected centrally. Department for funding. [21512] Government Departments: Procurement Mr Maude: In respect of (a) we expect the size of the Cabinet Office to reduce by c20% given its current Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet functions over the spending review period. Natural Office whether the 25 per cent. aspiration set for turnover will deliver some of the reductions, however Government contracts to be awarded to small and the Department is planning a voluntary departure medium-sized enterprises is to be measured as a proportion programme in 2010-11 to support the reductions needed of (a) the monetary value of the contract, (b) the total to achieve this target. number of contracts awarded by each Department or In respect of (b) and (c), the recent review of public (c) committee measure. [22306] bodies recommended that seven of the 14 Cabinet Office’s public bodies should no longer remain NDPBs: Mr Maude [holding answer 8 November 2010]: As set Civil Service Appeals Board Government Strategic; out in the coalition programme, the aspiration is for 25% of the total number of Government contracts to Marketing Advisory Board; go to SMEs. Main Honours Advisory Committee; Security Commission; Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office for Civil Society Advisory Board; Office whether the 25% aspiration for the award of Capacitybuilders; Government contracts to small and medium-sized enterprises applies to each Government Department or Commission for the Compact; to the total number of such contracts awarded. [22307] The first five are small advisory bodies supported by Cabinet Office staff who will be absorbed back into the Mr Maude [holding answer 8 November 2010]: The Cabinet Office and/or redeployed to other work. aspiration is for 25% of the total number of government There are no plans for redundancies in respect of contracts to go to SMEs. It is not our intention that staff supporting the work of the remaining advisory each Department should award 25% of its contracts to bodies—Advisory Committee on Business Appointments, SMEs. House of Lords Appointments, Security Vetting Appeals Panel, and the Committee for Standards in Public Life. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The remaining Cabinet Office public body, the Boundary Office what estimate he has made of the average cost to Commission for England has staff seconded from the a supplier of completing a pre-qualification questionnaire Cabinet Office. The staffing of the Commission is projected for contracts with Government Departments. [22501] to increase over the 2011-12 period to meet the requirements of the next parliamentary boundary review and to Mr Maude: This information is not held centrally, revert to a staffing level comparable to that used for but, as announced on 1 November, we are mandating past reviews. that Government Departments use a simplified standard Alternative arrangements for the work of Capacitybuilders pre-qualification questionnaire to reduce the burden on and the Commission for the Compact are currently suppliers. under review. The Central Office of Information has recently completed Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet a redundancy exercise which was not part of the Office what timetable he has set for Government comprehensive spending review. 287 staff exits were departments to agree plans of action to increase the made through a compulsory exercise, mitigated with number of contracts awarded to small and medium- some voluntary redundancies. sized enterprises. [22503] Any further changes to the status of the Central Office of Information are under consideration as part Mr Maude: We intend to agree actions with individual of a review which will report at the end of November. Departments once baseline figures for SMEs in procurement are published later this month. The status of the National School of Government remains under consideration and will be announced in Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet due course. Office what proportion of potential suppliers of There are currently no plans for redundancies at the Government Departments who completed pre-qualification National School of Government following the spending questionnaires in the last five years received no contracts review settlement. Any decisions about the National from any Department in (a) that financial year and (b) School of Government are expected to be made as part the three financial years following submission of the of the arm’s length bodies review. questionnaire. [22505] 341W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 342W

Mr Maude: This information is not held centrally, Voluntary Organisations: Local Government but, as announced on 1 November, we are mandating that Government Departments use a simplified standard Anas Sarwar: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet pre-qualification questionnaire to reduce the burden on Office whether he plans to review the guidelines on suppliers. commissioning between local government and the voluntary Members: Correspondence sector. [19873] Mr Hurd: The Secretary of State for Communities Kevin Brennan: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and Local Government has responsibility for local Office when he expects the Cabinet Secretary to reply government. The Coalition’s Programme for Government to the letter from the hon. Member for Cardiff West includes a commitment to promote the radical devolution of 20 September 2010 in relation to a Civil Service of power and greater financial autonomy to local appointment. [22684] government and community groups. The Government also runs a national training programme for public Mr Maude [holding answer 8 November 2010]: A sector commissioners which includes those from local reply was sent to the hon. Member on 4 November authorities. The Government will also be building on 2010. the work of the Partnership Improvement Programme (PIP), the new package will develop support to statutory Public Bodies (Reform) Bill 2010-2011: Wales partners and civil society organisations in working together on issues including commissioning practice. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) what recent discussions he has had with Welsh Assembly Government (a) Ministers and (b) officials on the likely effects on public bodies in Wales of the implementation of the provisions of the Public WORK AND PENSIONS Bodies (Reform) Bill; [21590] (2) what recent discussions he has had with Welsh Access to Work Programme Assembly Government (a) Ministers and (b) officials on the likely effects of the provisions of the Public Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Bodies (Reform) Bill on legislative competences in Work and Pensions if he will extend the Access to Work Wales (i) prior to and (ii) after a referendum on Part IV programme to cover the costs associated with (a) of the Government of Wales Act 2006. [21591] attendance at interviews and (b) participation in work experience placements and internships. [19994] Mr Maude: There has been an extensive process of communication and dialogue with the devolved Maria Miller: The Access to Work programme can Administrations in the development of proposals for fund the costs of an interpreter or advocate assisting a public bodies reform. Cabinet Office officials have disabled person to communicate at an interview. There been in regular contact with counterparts in Wales, are no plans at present to extend the support available Scotland and Northern Ireland. I have also corresponded from the programme to cover the costs of travelling to with colleagues in the devolved Administrations on a an interview. number of occasions prior to publication of the Public The Jobcentre Plus Fares to Interview scheme is Bodies Bill. available to help disabled people with other costs associated with job interviews including re-imbursement of travel Public Bodies Bill expenses, subsistence allowance for longer periods away from home and compensation for loss of earnings. Mr Marsden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The Access to Work programme can fund the additional Office what consideration he gave to making provision costs of support required to allow a disabled person to in the Public Bodies Bill [Lords] for changes to the take part in a work trial arranged by Jobcentre Plus. Skills Funding Agency. [22825] Access to Work support is only available to people in paid employment and so does not support work placements Mr Maude [holding answer 9 November 2010]: The or internships where the individual works on a voluntary scope of the Public Bodies Bill is restricted to non- basis or receives benefits or training allowances. departmental public bodies, non-ministerial departments and public corporations. The Skills Funding Agency is an Executive Agency of the Department for Business Bereavement Benefits Innovation and Skills and therefore out of scope of this review process and the Bill. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what plans he has for the future of Public Expenditure bereavement benefits; and if he will make a statement. [21995] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office whether his Department has established processes Steve Webb: As is the case for all benefits, bereavement to monitor any effects of proposed reductions in its benefits are kept under constant review. Any potential expenditure. [21637] change to bereavement benefits in the future would be considered within the context of wider welfare reform Mr Maude: My Department is assessing the affects of and our commitment to create and deliver a 21st century its spending review settlement. welfare system. 343W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 344W

Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission: Employment: Disability Correspondence : To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what impact assessment his Department David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Work has undertaken of the (a) duty to make reasonable and Pensions what consideration the Child Support adjustments under the Equality Act 2010, (b) disability Agency has given to using double-sided printing for its equality duty under the Equality Act 2010 and (c) correspondence. [22625] implementation of Article 27 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities; and what Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement mechanisms are in place to ensure his Department’s Commission is responsible for the child maintenance programmes to assist disabled people in employment system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner are compliant with that legislation. [22467] to write to the hon. Member with the information requested and I have seen the response. Maria Miller: The coalition agreement made clear Letter from Stephen Geraghty: this Government’s commitment to equality for disabled people. We believe that disabled people should have the In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive same opportunities as non-disabled people to fully reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child participate in society. Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance In general, the provisions in the Equality Act 2010 and Enforcement Commission. which require reasonable adjustments to be made for You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what disabled people have been carried forward from the consideration the Child Support Agency has given to using Disability Discrimination Act 1995. The Equality Act double-sided print for its correspondence. [22625] 2010 introduced a single threshold at which the duty to The vast majority of printed correspondence from the Child make reasonable adjustments arises and this change is Maintenance and Enforcement Commission’s IT systems is produced dealt with in the impact assessment1 and equality impact in bulk by our IT suppliers in their own print centres. Much assessment2 of the Equality Act. These assessments smaller volumes of correspondence are created by caseworkers in also assess the introduction of a new public sector duty, local offices. which will replace the existing disability equality Duty Bulk printed correspondence is almost all printed single-sided. in April 2011. However, bilingual letters in English and Welsh are produced double-sided. The Child Support Agency is currently looking for The Government Equalities Office is currently consulting money saving opportunities associated with printed correspondence, on the public sector equality duty. Details of the impact including greater use of duplex printing. assessment and equality impact assessment are included 3 The Commission’s caseworkers are strongly encouraged to in the published consultation document . print all correspondence double-sided. We are currently deploying The Government take their obligations under the new printers into all local offices that will be set up to print United Nations convention on the rights of disabled double-sided by default. Installation of these new devices will be people into account as they develop policies and completed by April 2011. programmes. The report that Government will make to I hope you find this answer helpful. the United Nations next year will demonstrate how across Departments we have taken forward implementation in respect of article 27 and the convention as a whole. Disability Living Allowance The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) undertakes equality impact assessment on any new Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State policies or changes to existing policies and practice. A for Work and Pensions what consultation he undertook well established process helps policy makers develop with (a) charities, (b) third sector organisations and equality impact assessments based on a strong evidence (c) other disability organisations prior to his decision base. This includes guidance on including information to remove the mobility component of disability living gathered from consultation and involvement with allowance for those who live in residential care homes. organisations. [20982] Currently, equality impact assessments are being developed for both Work Choice implementation and Maria Miller: Local authority contracts with care Access to Work and will appear on the DWP website in homes should cover services to meet all a resident’s due course. assessed needs, including any assessed mobility needs, 1 http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/Equality%20Act%20Impact.pdf so an individual’s care support and mobility needs 2 http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/other/97801085 should be met by residential care providers from social 08714/9780108508714.pdf care funding. This measure will remove an overlap of 3 Equality Act 2010: The public sector Equality Duty: Promoting public funds while ensuring that resources continue to equality through transparency: be targeted at disabled people with the greatest needs. http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/ 402461_GEO_EqualityAct2010ThePublicSectorEqualityDuty_acc.pdf As part of the spending review all organisations are given the opportunity to contribute to the priorities of Housing Benefit the spending review. Across Government, consultation on specific spending review measures was not undertaken. Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work All measures are subject to the parliamentary process, and Pensions how many and what proportion of housing and we are committed to the involvement of charities, benefit claimants in (a) Scotland and (b) the UK third sector organisations and other disability organisations received housing benefit payments of over £20,000 in in the ongoing development of policy in these areas. the last 12 months for which figures are available. [21799] 345W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 346W

Steve Webb: Information on annual awards for each Housing Benefit: Brighton and Lewes housing benefit recipient is not available. At July 2010, our records show that: Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (a) In Scotland, there were 840 households receiving housing and Pensions if he will estimate the likely change in the benefit over £384.62 per week; discretionary housing payment for (a) Brighton and (b) In Great Britain, there were 11,230 households receiving Hove City Council and (b) Lewes District council in housing benefit over £384.62 per week. each year of the spending review period. [22121] Note: All figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 recipients. Steve Webb: We are reviewing the way in which we Source: allocate the Department’s contribution to local authorities’ Single Housing Benefit Extract for July 2010 expenditure on discretionary housing payments. In the meantime, we cannot estimate the likely change in Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and contributions to individual local authorities. Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of the proportion of local housing allowance claimants in (a) Housing Benefit: Down’s Syndrome single rooms, (b) one bedroom properties, (c) two bedroom properties, (d) three bedroom properties and Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (e) four bedroom properties and above whose monthly Pensions what plans he has to make discretionary housing allowance does not cover the cost of their rental payments to (a) people with Down’s syndrome and (b) payments; [22090] their families to meet housing rental costs. [23078] (2) what estimate he has made of the average shortfall in cases where local housing allowance does not cover Steve Webb: Discretionary housing payments are the full rent payable in each region in the latest period intended to make up shortfalls in entitlement to benefit for which figures are available; [22091] where the local authority considers that the person (3) what estimate he has made of the average difference concerned is in need of further help with their housing between local housing allowance claimed and rent payable costs. by persons whose allowance does not cover the cost of Decisions on who should receive these payments are their rental payments in (a) all properties and (b) entirely at the local authority’s discretion, and It is for properties with (i) a single room, (ii) one bedroom, (iii) the authority to decide what should be awarded in any two bedrooms, (iv) three bedrooms and (v) four bedrooms particular case and how long the award should last. We or more in the latest period in which figures are available. would expect local authorities to take into account the [22092] health and any special support needs of the household.

Steve Webb: In August 2009, 48% of those receiving Housing Benefit: Shared Housing housing benefit under the local housing allowance arrangements had a shortfall in their rent caused by the Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for customer’s contractual rent being higher than the Work and Pensions whether benefit recipients sharing appropriate local housing allowance rate. accommodation with unrelated non-benefit recipients Work is underway to update this information and we will be able to access local housing allowance under his aim to include this in the publication on a “two-year proposed reforms. [21305] review of the local housing allowance” due out later this year. Steve Webb: Those who live in shared accommodation and who are liable for their rent on a commercial basis Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work can continue to receive help from housing benefit, unless and Pensions what plans he has for the future of the their landlord is a close relative who also lives in the discretionary housing payments budget; and if he will property. make a statement. [22120] Housing Benefit: Wales Steve Webb: We are increasing the Government’s contribution to local authorities’ discretionary housing Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for payments funds from £20 million to £30 million in Work and Pensions how many rooms in houses defined 2011-12 and to £60 million a year thereafter. We are as shared for the purposes of the shared room rate of currently discussing the allocation of the funding with local housing allowance were available to rent in each the local authority associations. broad rental market area in Wales in the latest period for which figures are available. [22321] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent assessment his Steve Webb: Information on the number of rooms Department has made of the merits of rent controls as available in shared accommodation in the private rented a method of reducing expenditure on housing benefit. sector is not available. [22323] Industrial Health and Safety Steve Webb: Policy on rent controls is a matter for the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for However, the Department for Work and Pensions has Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has made outlined a range of measures in the June 2010 Budget of the contribution of trade union safety representatives that are designed to exert a downward pressure on rents to the maintenance of health and safety standards in and will save around £2 billion per year by 2015-16. the workplace. [22349] 347W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 348W

Chris Grayling: The Health and Safety Executive Support for mortgage interest is also payable through (HSE) strategy document ″The health and safety of awards of income-based employment and support Great Britain—Be part of the solution″ recognises that allowance, although the Department does not collect involving employees has a positive effect on health and administrative data on how many of these customers safety performance. would be receiving support for their eligible mortgage Research indicates that the benefits of effective employee interest costs. involvement in health and safety come about because it The Department does not collect administrative data helps employers to manage health and safety in a practical on the actual mortgage rates paid by support for mortgage way by: interest customers, or data on the proportion of customers helping spot risks; with interest rates higher than 3.63% due to having low making sure health and safety controls are practical; and income or poor credit history. increasing the level of commitment to working in a safe and In November 2009, we received a sample of data on healthy way. almost 6,000 support for mortgage interest claimants In organisations where it is not practical to consult (around 3% of the total caseload) from 16 different individuals directly, having a health and safety representative mortgage lenders, collected on our behalf by Council of is beneficial. Mortgage Lenders and HM Treasury. While the data Recent HSE analysis of previous survey data indicates are not a statistically robust sample and any results that, whether the workplace is unionised or not, employee should be considered illustrative, and it is likely that the satisfaction with consultation arrangements has a positive distribution of mortgage rates will have changed since impact on health and safety performance. It also shows the data were collected, they can provide a useful insight that unionised workplaces generally have higher levels into the mortgages of support for mortgage interest of satisfaction with consultation on health and safety customers. matters. This sample indicates that around 115,000 of the current 227,000 support for mortgage interest customers Mortgages: Government Assistance would have mortgage interest rates higher than 3.63%. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Using the same sample, we estimate that just over Work and Pensions (1) if he will estimate the number of 50% of support for mortgage interest customers would people in receipt of support for mortgage interest who have mortgage interest liabilities of lower than 3.67% have mortgages with interest rates higher than 3.63 per (the April 2010 estimate of the average mortgage rate cent.; if he will estimate the proportion of such people published by the ), and therefore continue who have mortgages with interest rates higher than to have their eligible mortgage interest outgoings fully 3.63 per cent. due to having (a) low income and (b) met by their benefit awards. poor credit history; [22642] Numerical estimates on the proportion of eligible (2) how many people were in receipt of support for mortgage interest that we would be covered under a mortgage interest payments; and how many such people standard interest rate of 3.67% are given in table 3 of were also receiving (a) pension credit, (b) jobseeker’s the equality impact assessment published on the allowance and (c) income support on the latest date for departmental website. which figures are available; [22655] http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/support-for-mortgage- interest.pdf (3) with reference to his Department’s Equality Impact Assessment: Support for Mortgage Interest; page 6, paragraph 1, what the evidential basis is for the estimate Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for that just over half of all support for mortgage interest Work and Pensions what cost-benefit analysis his customers will continue to have their eligible mortgage Department has undertaken of the likely effects of the interest outgoings fully met by their benefit awards; implementation of his proposals to lower the rate of [22720] interest used to calculate support for mortgage interest. [22653] (4) with reference to his Department’s Equality Impact Assessment: Support for Mortgage Interest; page 7, paragraph 4, if he will give numerical estimates for the Steve Webb: The standard interest rate used to calculate references to (a) lion’s share and (b) a relatively small support for mortgage interest was fixed at 6.08% by the last Administration. That rate was too generous and level of arrears. [22721] resulted in the vast majority of people getting more Steve Webb: The latest available figures on the number than their eligible mortgage interest liability, which was of people claiming support for mortgage interest through unfair to taxpayers. income-based jobseeker’s allowance, income support The Chancellor announced in the June 2010 Budget and pension credit are from February 2010, and are that the standard interest rate would be based on the given as follows. Bank of England’s published monthly average mortgage interest rate. Legislation to introduce this change came Caseload (February 2010) Number into effect from 1 October 2010 and the standard interest rate is currently 3.63%. Jobseeker’s allowance 34,000 Income support 75,000 The Department conducted thorough analysis on the Pension credit 117,000 likely impacts of this change, and we have included as All 227,000 much information as possible in the equality impact assessment published on the Department’s website. Source: Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 5% http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/support-for-mortgage- samples. interest.pdf 349W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 350W

Pensioners: Housing Benefit Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10; some additional Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work disclosure control has also been applied. and Pensions how many persons in receipt of housing 2. For disability living allowance, the totals show the number of people in receipt of an allowance and exclude people with benefit in each (a) region and (b) constituency are entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if above retirement age. [22413] they are in hospital. 3. A claimant can be in receipt of more than one of these benefits Steve Webb: The information is not available at and will therefore be counted for each benefit they receive. constituency level. A copy of the available information 4. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment and support allowance (ESA) from October 2008. has been placed in the Library. 5. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. Social Security Benefits: Disability Source: DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Study. and Pensions how many people were in receipt of (a) disability living allowance and (b) incapacity benefit in Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Redcar constituency on the latest date for which figures and Pensions whether he has assessed the merits of are available. [16534] drafting a single form for the application of all medical condition-related benefits. [22465] Maria Miller: “Caseloads for selected benefits by Parliamentary Constituencies, February 2010”is available Maria Miller: The policy rationale, entitlement conditions in the House of Commons Library and includes figures and information required for each benefit is different for incapacity benefit and disability living allowance. and to cover them all in one form would increase The information is reproduced in the following table. complexity and be unhelpful for the recipient. Recipients of disability living allowance and incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance as at February 2010, Redcar parliamentary Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work constituency and Pensions how many people in Dartford constituency Number receive (a) incapacity benefit and (b) employment and [22805] Incapacity benefit/severe 4,600 support allowance. disablement allowance (in payment) Maria Miller: At February 2010 there were 2,380 Disability living allowance 6,560 people receiving incapacity benefits, and 660 people (in payment) receiving employment and support allowance in Dartford Notes: constituency. 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest ten; some additional disclosure control has also been applied. Notes: 2. For disability living allowance the totals show the number of 1. The incapacity benefits figure includes incapacity benefit, people in receipt of the benefit and excludes people with an income support paid on the grounds of incapacity, and severe underlying entitlement but whose payment has been suspended, for disablement allowance. example because they are in hospital. 3. A claimant can be in receipt of more than one of these benefits 2. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance and will therefore be counted for each benefit they receive. (ESA) from October 2008. 4. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment and support 3. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, some additional disclosure allowance from October 2008. has been applied. 5. Figures for employment and support allowance are not included. 6. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. 2010. Source: 5. These data are published at: DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/stats_summary/ benefit_new_parlc_table_feb10.xls Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in Livingston Social Security Benefits: Fraud constituency receive (a) disability living allowance, (b) incapacity benefit and (c) employment and support : To ask the Secretary of State for Work allowance. [22070] and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 20 October 2010, Official Report, column 766W, on social security Maria Miller: The information requested is in the benefits: fraud, how many people were involved in the following table: 550 warrant cases; and how many people were involved in more than one of those cases. [19820] Claimants of employment and support allowance, disability living allowance, incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance, Livingston constituency, as of February 2010 : The Department seeks an arrest warrant Number in all circumstances in which a defendant fails to attend Incapacity benefit/severe 4,910 a hearing or trial without an explanation acceptable to disablement allowance the court. Disability living allowance 7,870 The 550 warrants refer to 550 individual defendants. (in payment) Employment and support 920 Of the 550 defendants, none have more than one allowance warrant outstanding for benefit fraud offences. 351W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 352W

Statutory Sick Pay COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Anti-Semitism Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether he plans to extend entitlement to Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for statutory sick pay to employees who are on a phased Communities and Local Government what (a) research return to work. [22464] and (b) programmes he plans to commission for the purposes of tackling anti-Semitism; and if he will make Chris Grayling: There are no plans to extend entitlement a statement. [22577] to statutory sick pay to employees who are on a phased return to work. Andrew Stunell: The cross-Government working group to tackle anti-Semitism is currently preparing to publish Statutory sick pay is payable to employees who are a three-year on response to the recommendations made unable to work under the terms of their contract. It is by the All Party Inquiry into Anti-Semitism. Once this not payable for days when an employee does any work report has been published we will reassess what still under this contract. An employee, who is undertaking a needs to be done and commission research and develop phased return to work, may nonetheless receive statutory a programme of action accordingly. sick pay for days that they do not work, provided the qualifying conditions are met. Departmental Early Retirement

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Unemployment Communities and Local Government how many staff of (a) his Department and (b) its agencies have been offered enhanced early retirement packages in each of Miss Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the last three years. [22021] and Pensions on what occasions since his appointment his Department has released to the media figures from Robert Neill: The numbers of staff who left DCLG each source on the number of people who have never and its agencies with enhanced early retirement packages been in employment. [17873] in each of the last three years is shown in the following table. Chris Grayling: The Department is routinely asked by the media for figures regarding employment, unemployment DCLG Agencies and economic inactivity and endeavour to provide as much information as possible. We use a variety of 2007-08 43 <5 sources including: 2008-09 11 9 2009-10 27 <5 The DWP national benefits database Nomis Web: The data for the agencies, Planning Inspectorate, www.nomisweb.co.uk QEII Conference Centre, and the Fire Service College, has been combined owing to the very small numbers Family Resource Survey involved. DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company: Contracts

Work Programme Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the oral evidence taken by the Communities and Local Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Committee on 13 September 2010, HC 453-i, Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to ensure Q109, what progress has been made in rectification of that prisoners and ex-offenders are supported into failures in the mapping data and directions provided by employment through the Work Programme; and EADS to the fire service under contract. [21414] whether this objective will be included in contracts with prime contractors. [22659] Robert Neill [holding answer 2 November 2010]: A significant number of issues still remain with the mapping Chris Grayling: The Work Programme will provide and routing products provided by EADS under the more personalised back to work support for long-term FiReControl contract. unemployed individuals, and for those with more significant The Fire and Rescue Services (FRS) using the interim barriers to employment. We are currently working through version of the software supplied by EADS for on-board the full implications of the spending review for the computers in fire appliances are still waiting for updated Work Programme and further announcements, including mapping data formatted for these devices. EADS has about support for ex-offenders, will be made in due now supplied the Department for Communities and course. Local Government with a further draft plan which DWP is also working closely with Ministry of Justice would allow roll-out to start early in the new year. in developing options for improving cross-departmental My officials received an updated proposal from EADS co-operation to increase employment and reduce regarding the solution for routing fire appliances to re-offending for individuals leaving prison and those incidents. Many of the problems highlighted by the serving community sentences. Secretary of State would not be satisfactorily resolved 353W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 354W under this proposal, including, for example, reliable and Average response times1 by fire and rescue services, England2, consistent use of the dimensions of the fire appliance in April 2009 to March 2010 setting a suitable route and easy adjustment of the Dwelling fires3 Other building fires recommended route if the crew on board find an unexpected Cumbria 8.6 8.8 blockage. Derbyshire 7.5 8.2 The issue with the gazetteer information showing Devon and 9.3 9.1 West Yorkshire addresses as located in Wakefield appears Somerset to have been resolved by an EADS software maintenance Dorset 8.4 9.5 release. However there is now a significant problem Durham 8.0 7.8 with this product in the way it handles FRS changes. East Sussex 7.1 7.4 Essex 8.1 9.0 Fire Services: Emergency Calls Gloucestershire 9.5 9.0 Greater London 6.2 6.2 Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Greater —— 2 Communities and Local Government what steps his Manchester Department is taking to improve fire service emergency Hampshire 7.2 7.3 response times; and whether he plans to bring forward Hereford and 8.9 9.5 proposals for new national standards for fire service Worcester Hertfordshire 7.7 7.4 response times. [22789] Humberside 7.0 7.9 Robert Neill: The onus is on individual fire and rescue Isle of Wight 9.0 7.1 authorities to consider strategies to mitigate the effect Isles of Scilly — 9.0 of increased levels of traffic, which research has shown Kent 6.9 7.9 to be the main factor accounting for increased response Lancashire 6.8 7.3 times. That will include liaising with partners such as Leicestershire 7.9 8.6 local authorities and the Highways Agency, and applying Lincolnshire 9.1 9.4 locally appropriate measures such as green wave traffic Merseyside 5.6 5.7 light systems, GPS and improved local knowledge of Norfolk 8.9 8.7 fire crews, and use of secondary fire vehicles and reduced North Yorkshire 8.9 9.8 response to low risk incidents. Northamptonshire 8.2 8.6 Response target-setting is a matter for individual fire Northumberland 9.4 9.7 and rescue authorities under Integrated Risk Management Nottinghamshire 6.6 7.0 Planning (IRMP), according to local requirements and Oxfordshire 9.5 9.0 circumstances, and is not something that central government Shropshire 8.8 9.4 should direct or determine. The government has no South Yorkshire 7.4 7.7 plans to reintroduce national standards for fire and Staffordshire 8.2 8.6 rescue service response times. Decisions made by local Suffolk 8.9 10.1 politicians and practitioners according to local Surrey 8.5 8.5 circumstances will be more effective than blanket Tyne and Wear 5.3 5.5 requirements across the country. Warwickshire 9.0 7.7 However, if the service chose to place consistent West Midlands 6.6 6.8 standards upon itself, then equally that is not something 8.7 9.6 that central Government would seek to intervene in. West Yorkshire 6.8 6.9 Wiltshire 9.3 10.3 Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the average England1 7.3 7.9 fire service emergency response times were for each fire 1 As per previous figures, excludes fires where (i) there was heat and service in the latest period for which figures are smoke damage only, (ii) the call was made after the fire was known available. [22790] extinguished, (iii) where the response time calculated gives an hour or more. Robert Neill: Average response times for fires in buildings 2 Excludes Greater Manchester and Buckinghamshire as data for each fire and rescue service are shown in the table provided were incomplete. 3 In order to be consistent with data source prior to April 2009, for the latest period for which fire and rescue incident chimney fires not included in calculation. data are available. Fire Services: Redundancy Average response times1 by fire and rescue services, England2, April 2009 to March 2010 Dwelling fires3 Other building fires Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether he has Avon 7.5 8.1 made an assessment of the number of fire service jobs Bedfordshire 7.6 8.0 that would be lost as a result of the implementation of Berkshire 7.5 8.3 the proposals contained within the comprehensive Buckinghamshire2 ——spending review. [22788] Cambridgeshire 9.1 9.5 Cheshire 8.4 8.9 Robert Neill: As fire service jobs are a local matter, Cleveland 5.6 6.1 determined by individual fire and rescue authorities, no Cornwall 11.0 10.2 formal assessment has been undertaken by the Department 355W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 356W for Communities and Local Government. I also refer Andrew Stunell: Information on the number of the hon. Member to the answer I gave the hon. Member households receiving social housing is collected through for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom the continuous recording of lettings form (CORE). Blenkinsop) on 25 October 2010, Official Report, columns Historically CORE has only collected information from 88-89W. registered social landlords, though a number of local authorities are now also providing information through Local Development Frameworks: Greater London this process. In 2008-09, 26% of new social housing tenants were Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for in employment. Communities and Local Government what steps he plans to take to enable London councils to revise their This figure relates to the main householder and is local development frameworks. [23025] based on the total number of new tenants in LA/RSL general needs and supported housing in full-time or Robert Neill: All local planning authorities have a part-time work expressed as a proportion of the total duty to keep their development plans under review and who provided their economic status. have the power to revise them when they feel this is Further information on social lettings is published in appropriate and beneficial for their area, taking account the live tables at the following link: of local circumstances. http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Public Expenditure housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/rentslettings/livetables/

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Communities and Local Government whether his and Local Government what estimate he has made of Department has established processes to monitor any the average income of households in social housing in effects of proposed reductions in its expenditure. [21639] each region in the latest period for which figures are available. [22100] Robert Neill: The Department is following guidance issued by the Government Equalities Office on publishing its Equality Impact Assessments as part of the spending Andrew Stunell [holding answer 4 November 2010]: review. The results of the assessments will be published The following table shows the most recent estimates of in due course. median and mean net (disposable) household income The Chancellor announced as part of the spending for social renters. review in October that each Government Department Disposable income is gross income less income tax, will publish a business plan setting out the details of its national insurance contributions, local government taxes reform plans. As required, the DCLG business plan will and certain other deductions. The estimates have also include key indicators against which we will publish been “equivalised” for household size and composition. data to show the cost and impact of departmental Income of households by region for the social rented sector, 2006-07 to activities. The indicators will be published for consultation 2008-09 to ensure that we have the most relevant and robust £ per week, 2008-09 prices indicators in time for the beginning of the spending Region Median Mean review period in April 2011. North East 280 303 Regeneration: Newcastle upon Tyne North West 289 307 Yorkshire and the 286 305 Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Humber Communities and Local Government what discussions East Midlands 276 295 his Department has had with Newcastle city council on West Midlands 287 307 the refurbishment of the Byker estate; and what East of England 295 313 consideration he has given to the recommendations of London 308 304 the report by Professor Peter Roberts. [22962] South East 308 291 South West 297 296 Andrew Stunell: My Department together with the England 293 316 Homes and Communities Agency has held a number of Notes: recent meetings with representatives from Newcastle 1. The original source for these estimates is the Family Resources city council, its ALMO YourHomes Newcastle, and the Survey. The income measures used to derive the estimates employ Byker Steering Group. The aim of the meetings is to the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions publication ‘Households Below Average Income’ (HBAI) series, deliver, as Professor Peter Roberts’s report recommends, which uses disposable household income, adjusted (or “equivalised”) a sustainable long term future for the Byker estate. The for household size and composition, as an income measure as a primary focus of the discussions is to ensure that the proxy for standard of living. proposed scheme is both deliverable and achieves value 2. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be for money for Government. affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 3. Three sample years have been combined as regional single year Social Rented Housing estimates are subject to volatility. 4. The figures are based on OECD equivalisation factors. 5. Median household incomes are more commonly used in analysis Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities as these are less affected by outliers. and Local Government what proportion of new social 6. Incomes are presented in 2008-09 prices and have been rounded to the nearest . housing tenants are in employment. [22096] 357W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 358W

Social Rented Housing: Eltham TREASURY

Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Child Benefit Communities and Local Government how many homes in Eltham constituency identified as eligible for Stephen Twigg: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer improvements under the Decent Homes programme what estimate he has made of the number of households have not yet had such improvements made; and if he in (a) Liverpool, West Derby constituency, (b) Liverpool will take steps to ensure that funding for such improvements and (c) the UK to be affected by his proposed changes is made available to the London borough of Greenwich. to the administration of child benefit. [22857] [23093] Mr Gauke: Information on household income for Andrew Stunell: The available data applies to the child benefit claimants is not available at parliamentary London borough of Greenwich and there is no breakdown constituency or city level. by constituency. At April 2010, 4,947 council homes in the London borough of Greenwich did not meet the Child Benefit: Durham decent homes standard. This is forecast to fall to 392 by April 2011. Pat Glass: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if In the spending review, the Government announced he will estimate the number of households in North that they will spend £1.6 billion on tackling non-decent West Durham constituency which will be affected by council housing. My Department and the Homes and the proposed withdrawal of child benefit from families Communities Agency will be consulting local authorities with a higher rate taxpayer. [22595] on the process for allocating capital funding shortly. Mr Gauke: Information on household income for UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with child benefit claimants is not available at parliamentary Disabilities constituency level.

Departmental Public Expenditure Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps his Department is taking to implement obligations under Lisa Nandy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Articles 9, 11 and 19 of the United Nations Convention whether his Department has established processes to on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in relation to monitor any effects of proposed reductions in its his Department’s policy responsibilities. [21128] expenditure. [21632]

Grant Shapps: The Department for Communities and : “Spending Review 2010” (Cm 7942) Local Government is committed to the UN convention sets out details of the spending settlement for HM on rights of persons with disabilities and to improving Treasury which will achieve overall resource savings of outcomes for disabled people. The Department is currently 33% in real terms by 2014-15. In line with all Departments, further considering its responsibilities against the Treasury has published a business plan and will report expectations of the convention, and the UK report to publicly against the plan. the UN next year will describe how implementation is being achieved. Directors: Fraud A number of measures exist or are being taken forward by DCLG which support various convention articles, : To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for example: what mechanism he has put in place to prevent individuals setting up new businesses when their previous business Part M (Access to and use of buildings) of the Building Regulations sets out a series of requirements to ensure that has collapsed because of fraudulent activity. [23074] reasonable provision is made to meet the needs of disabled people where building work is undertaken in both commercial Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply and residential buildings. In order to support delivery of more Our enforcement regime provides for the disqualification accessible and adaptable housing the Lifetime Home Standard of directors of a limited company which has entered will remain an important element of the Code for Sustainable Homes. an insolvency procedure, if misconduct or reckless or fraudulent behaviour has been proved. A disqualification The allocation legislation provides that people who need to order prevents a person from acting in the management move house on medical and welfare grounds, including grounds relating to a disability, must be given ‘reasonable preference’ of a limited company for a period of between two and (i.e. priority) for social housing. 15 years, depending on the seriousness of the misconduct. In 2009-10 more than five directors a day were disqualified. Home Ownership for people with Long-term Disabilities (HOLD) is a shared ownership scheme, to help those whose needs are In addition, section 216 of the Insolvency Act 1986 not met elsewhere. places restrictions on the re-use of a company name by the same directors. Breach of the section is a criminal The Disabled Facilities Grant provides the funding to help disabled and older people to make adaptations so they can offence. carry on living in their own homes. If an individual wishes to set him or herself up in The spending review 2010 announced that the reform of the business in their own name (i.e. not under the guises of council housing finance system will build in the resources a limited company) then there are no restrictions in needed to carry out future disabled housing adaptations required place, unless the individual is bankrupt or a debt relief in the council housing stock. order moratorium is in force. 359W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 360W

National Insurance Contributions: New Businesses status of the Scottish Executive and the other devolved administrations. Further detail will be set out later this Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Chancellor of the financial year. Exchequer what his policy is on extending National Insurance exemptions on new jobs to areas of the Public Sector: Females South East which have low levels of employment and high levels of social deprivation. [23108] Valerie Vaz: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will undertake an assessment of the likely effects Mr Gauke: The regional employer national insurance on women of anticipated reductions in the number of contributions holiday for new businesses is targeted on jobs in the public sector in the next four years; and if he countries and regions within the UK where reliance on will make a statement. [21768] public sector employment is highest. For practical reasons the Government have no plans to introduce national Danny Alexander: On 20 October 2010 the Treasury insurance contribution exemptions for smaller geographical published an overview of the impact of the spending units. review on men and women, people from ethnic minorities and people with disabilities. Official Cars: Expenditure It will be for individual employers to determine the exact work force implications of their settlements. It is Hugh Bayley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the responsibility of departments to ensure that equality how much his Department has spent on the Government issues are considered when assessing options for spending Car Service since the Government took office. [7955] reductions.

Justine Greening: The Treasury spent £70,696 (including Tax Allowances: Breweries spending in fulfilment of pre existing contractual commitments) with the Government Car Service for all Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the car services for both Ministers and officials between Exchequer what plans he has for future duty relief 12 May 2010 and 12 July 2010. In 2009-10, the Department arrangements for small breweries. [22265] spent £98,145 with the Government Car Service for both Ministers and officials in an average two month Justine Greening: Breweries producing less than 60,000 period. hectolitres per annum continue to benefit from a reduced rate of duty under the small breweries relief that was Public Expenditure introduced in 2002. Decisions about tax policy are a matter for the Chancellor Chi Onwurah: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer as part of the Budget process. what the scale is on the vertical axis on the graph on page 13 of the spending review 2010 document. [21842]

Justine Greening [holding answer 4 November 2010]: HOME DEPARTMENT The vertical axis on chart 1.1 on page 13 of the spending review 2010 document starts at 33% of GDP and goes Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Northumberland up to 49% of GDP. Each line on the vertical axis represents an additional 1% of GDP. : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many antisocial behaviour orders Public Expenditure: Scotland have been (a) made and (b) breached in (i) Wansbeck constituency and (ii) Northumberland in the latest period Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for which figures are available. [22928] whether he has had discussions with the Scottish Executive : Data collected centrally by the on the future of end-year flexibility. [22042] Ministry of Justice on the number of antisocial behaviour Danny Alexander: In the context of the Respect agenda, orders (ASBOs) issued and breached are collated at Treasury ministers meet with ministers from the Scottish criminal justice system (CJS) area level, rather than Government from time to time to discuss issues of constituency or county area level. Northumberland which common interest. The issue of EYF was discussed at includes Wansbeck is in the Northumbria CJS area. the most recent Finance Ministers Quadrilateral in The latest figures cover the period to 31 December September. 2008, and show that for the Northumbria CJS area 37 ASBOs were issued and 29 were proved in court to Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer have been breached for the first time in 2008. whether the Scottish Executive will retain access to end-year flexibility throughout the comprehensive spending Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Peterborough review period. [22043] Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Danny Alexander: The spending review announced the Home Department how many antisocial behaviour that the EYF scheme is being abolished at the end of orders were (a) made and (b) breached in the Criminal 2010-11, including all accumulated stocks, and replaced Justice System area covering the Peterborough city council by a new system from 2011-12. In the context of developing area in each year since 2005; and if she will make a the new system the Government recognises the special statement. [22914] 361W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 362W

James Brokenshire: Data collected centrally by the Illegal Immigrants: East Ayrshire Ministry of Justice on the number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued and breached is collated at Criminal Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Justice System (CJS) area level. Home Department how many illegal immigrants to the The latest figures cover the period to 31 December UK have (a) been identified in and (b) deported from 2008, and show that for the Cambridgeshire CJS area, Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency in the latest which includes Peterborough city council area: period for which figures are available. [22959] in 2005, 50 ASBOs were issued, and 13 were proved in court to have been breached for the first time; : The UK Border Agency is unable to in 2006, 31 ASBOs were issued, and 14 were proved in court to specify where an individual was encountered when they have been breached for the first time; were served papers as an illegal immigrant. It is only in 2007, 20 ASBOs were issued, and 13 were proved in court to possible to report on their last known address and their have been breached for the first time; and current immigration status. in 2008, 34 ASBOs were issued, and 13 were proved in court to Between 1 October 2009 and 30 September 2010, 10 have been breached for the first time. individuals were identified as illegal immigrants residing in the Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency. During Antisocial Behaviour: Crime Prevention this period, nine illegal immigrants resident in Kilmarnock and Loudoun were removed from the United Kingdom. Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for the All figures quoted are internal management information Home Department whether her Department has made only and are subject to change. This information has an assessment of the effectiveness of Mosquito devices not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. in reducing antisocial behaviour. [22784] Immigration Controls: English Language James Brokenshire: The Mosquito device is a commercial product and is not endorsed by the Home Office or the Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Association of Chief Police Officers. Home Department (1) when her Department notified This Government believe that it is for local agencies accreditation boards of proposals to change English dealing with antisocial behaviour to decide whether or for Speakers of Other Languages requirements for (a) not to use the Mosquito device in their area and to indefinite leave to remain and (b) application for undertake any appropriate assessments. The Home Office regularisations and nationalisation as British citizens; has not undertaken its own assessment. [22775] (2) which (a) accreditation boards and (b) other Crime: Summertime organisations she consulted on the English for Speakers of Other Languages requirements for (i) indefinite leave to remain and (ii) application for regularisations and Rebecca Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for the nationalisation as British citizens prior to laying the Home Department what assessment she has made of statement of Changes in Immigration Rules before the the potential effects on the incidence of crime of House on 18 March 2010. [22776] adopting daylight saving time. [22764] Damian Green: There was not a formal consultation James Brokenshire: My right hon. Friend the Home on the changes introduced by the previous Government. Secretary has not made any assessment of the potential The accreditation bodies were sent copies of the revised effects of adopting daylight saving time on the incidence guidance on 13 April and the UK Border Agency of crime. continues to work with them to ensure the policy is implemented. Entry Clearances: Taiwan Intercept Modernisation Programme Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will bring forward proposals Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the for a Working Holiday Scheme with Taiwan to increase Home Department what arrangements she plans to cultural understanding between the UK and Taiwan; make to safeguard the privacy of individuals under the and if she will make a statement. [22196] continued intercept modernisation programme. [20754]

Damian Green: We operate a Youth Mobility Scheme Nick Herbert [holding answer 1 November 2010]: for the purpose of cultural exchanges between young Access to communications data is primarily regulated people. To qualify, a country needs to meet certain by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA), eligibility criteria. It is open to any country which which places strict rules on when, and by whom, the believes it meets the criteria for acceptance on the data can be accessed. The use of communications data scheme to enter into discussions with us about reciprocal is also regulated by the Data Protection Act and the arrangements. Human Rights Act. Data are disclosed only on a case- by-case basis to designated public authorities under The eligibility criteria relate to: strict safeguards which require that the disclosure is (a) a low level of immigration risk and not being a country necessary and proportionate to the lawful purpose of subject to a mandatory UK visa regime; an investigation. We will legislate to ensure that the (b) satisfactory returns arrangements; and programme accords with the Government’s approach (c) reciprocal opportunities for UK nationals. to civil liberties. 363W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 364W

Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the Receivers who manage and realise assets to satisfy Home Department whether she plans to bring forward orders made under the Proceeds of Crime Act meet legislative proposals to provide that data stored by their remuneration and expenses from the assets that service providers under the intercept modernisation they manage and sell. programme will be accessible only on presentation of a The Home Office also directly funds nine multi-agency warrant; and if she will make a statement. [20755] Regional Asset Recovery Teams at a cost of £10.5 million per annum, which assist agencies to recover money Nick Herbert [holding answer 1 November 2010]: As under the provisions of the Proceeds of Crime Act. made clear in the strategic defence and security review, the Government will continue to build on an existing Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for the programme of work to preserve the ability of the law Home Department on average what proportion of the enforcement, security and intelligence agencies to obtain money recovered through the Proceeds of Crime Act communications data and to intercept communications 2002 which was allocated to the police force that within the appropriate legal framework. We will legislate carried out the recovery in the latest period for which to ensure this is compatible with the Government’s figures are available. [23013] approach to civil liberties and use of communications capabilities. Details of this legislation will be announced James Brokenshire: Under the current Asset Recovery in Parliament in due course. Incentivisation Scheme 50% of all money recovered Khat under the Proceeds of Crime Act is returned to front-line partners. How these funds are distributed will depend : To ask the Secretary of State for the on the relevant part of the Act that is used. Home Department (1) whether her Department is For confiscation orders, the relevant police force receives considering the classification of khat under the Misuse 18.75% of money recovered with 18.75% being returned of Drugs Act 1971; and if she will make a statement; to the relevant prosecutor and 12.5% being returned to [22817] Her Majesty’s Courts Service. (2) what recent discussions she has had with the For money recovered through the cash forfeiture Association of Chief Police Officers on the implications route, the relevant police force receives the full 50% of for public order of the use of khat. [22820] the total collected.

James Brokenshire: In line with the Advisory Council Strategic Defence and Security Review on the Misuse of Drugs’ (ACMD) statutory duty under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, I have written to the Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the ACMD asking for it to review the available evidence Home Department what consultation she undertook relating to the harms of khat and provide advice, in prior to the announcement on the continued use of the relation to both control, under the Misuse of Drugs Act intercept modernisation programme as part of the 1971, and a wider response. Strategic Defence and Security Review. [20753] I have had a number of meetings and discussions with representatives of the Association of Chief Police Nick Herbert [holding answer 1 November 2010]: As Officers (ACPO). These discussions have not, to date, made clear in the strategic defence and security review, covered the issue of khat. the Government will continue to build on an existing programme of work to preserve the ability of the law Proceeds of Crime enforcement, security and intelligence agencies to obtain communications data and to intercept communications Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for the within the appropriate legal framework. We will legislate Home Department what plans she has to increase the to ensure this is compatible with the Government’s proportion of criminal assets which are recovered. approach to civil liberties and use of communications [19736] capabilities. As part of this, the results of the 2009 consultation on Communication Data were reviewed, James Brokenshire: The Government are committed advice from the law enforcement agencies and the security to improving overall performance on recovering assets and intelligence agencies were considered and discussions from criminals. We are already encouraging the full and with the Information Commissioner’s Office have been efficient use of the existing powers, in particular under ongoing throughout this process. the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, and will provide more detail of our plans to further disrupt criminal finances UK Border Agency: Passports in due course.

Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for the Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department who is responsible for meeting Home Department how many passports the UK expenses incurred through operations to recover money Borders Agency declared lost through its own actions under the provisions of the Proceeds of Crime Act in 2009; and what the cost to the public purse was of 2002. [23012] replacing such documents. [21361]

James Brokenshire: Law enforcement agencies meet Damian Green: Information relating to the number of costs of recovering criminal assets from within their passports the UK Border Agency (UKBA) declared budgets. However they also receive a share of the money lost through its own actions in 2009 and the cost of they recover under the Proceeds of Crime Act as part of replacing such documents is not currently recorded the Asset Recovery Incentivisation Scheme. centrally. UKBA is currently considering the most 365W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 366W appropriate way in which to improve the system it uses Bureau check was disputed by the subject of the check currently to record such information and to minimise in the latest period for which figures are available; the loss of documents in general and passports in [22696] particular. Lynne Featherstone: The following tables detail a Vetting: Complaints breakdown of how many times disputes against the outcomes of a Standard and Enhanced Criminal Records Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for the Bureau (CRB) were upheld since March 2010 to August Home Department (1) on how many occasions a 2010 (Table A) and how many times the outcomes of dispute against the outcome of (a) a standard and (b) standard and enhanced checks were disputed by the an enhanced Criminal Records Bureau check was subject of the check from 2009-10 to present (Table B). upheld in the latest period for which figures are An upheld dispute does not mean an individual has available; [22695] been incorrectly associated with a criminal record. The (2) on how many occasions the outcome of (a) a outcome of an upheld dispute can involve the amendment standard and (b) an enhanced Criminal Records of a single word such as an individual’s name.

Table A—Upheld disputes Certificate type March 2010 April 2010 May 2010 June 2010 July 2010 August 2010 Total

Enhanced 205 164 135 158 189 108 959 Standard 20 30 27 13 15 8 113 Total 225 194 162 171 204 116 113

Table B—Dispute applications effectiveness of the disclosure units of the police forces Certificate involved in the CRB checking process. type 2009-10 2010-11 Total The CRB have been working with police forces through Enhanced 5,641 2,797 8,438 joint operational performance reviews, to address the Standard 1,386 523 1,909 problems associated with delays and the impact that Total 7,027 3,320 10,347 exceptional demand for CRB checks can have on police forces. The CRB has set up improvement plans with those forces that have been having problems meeting the Vetting: Standards demand for certificates. This is aimed at maintaining a steady output of applications on the system while also Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for the reducing the number of outstanding cases that have Home Department how many (a) standard and (b) been with police forces for more than 25 days. enhanced Criminal Records Bureau checks took longer than the respective guideline times in the latest period for which figures are available. [22697] HEALTH Lynne Featherstone: The Criminal Records Bureau Blood: Contamination (CRB) published service standards (PSS) are that 90% of enhanced CRB checks are issued within 28 days. The Dr Phillip Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for CRB received 326,401 in the month of September 2010. Health pursuant to the answer of 1 November 2010, Of these 238,402 (87% against the 90% PSS) were Official Report, column 630W,on blood: contamination, processed within the PSS and 88,359 were issued outside (1) for what reasons his Department answered the the PSS by one day or more. 13 requests made under the Freedom of Information The length of time a CRB check can take to process Act 2000 in part; and if he will place in the Library a can include “time out with customer”. This occurs copy of the responses his Department gave to those when the CRB has to contact the registered body (RB) who submitted the requests; [22656] for additional information about the applicant, when (2) for what reasons his Department rejected or the application form has not been completed correctly withheld information in response to each of the eight or where the police require additional clarification about requests made under the Freedom of Information Act the applicant’s identity. The CRB cannot continue to 2000; and if he will place in the Library a copy of the process the application until the RB provides this responses his Department gave to those who submitted information; or the applicant resolves any question of the requests. [22657] identity to the satisfaction of the police force. There are a number of other factors that can affect Anne Milton: The Department will place a copy of the timely completion of CRB checks, including but not each of the responses in the Library to the requests in restricted to the length of time it can take for an which it either answered in part or withheld information. employer to deal with the initial application; the accurate All enclosures accompanying the requests as answered completion of the application form; the clarity of the in part will be placed on the Department’s website at the information provided; the existence of conviction or following address: non-conviction information; any ongoing or outstanding www.dh.gov.uk/en/FreedomOfInformation/ criminal investigations or proceedings; where more than Freedomofinformationpublicationschemefeedback/ one force holds relevant information and the operational FOIreleases/index.htm 367W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 368W

Of the 12 requests1 made under the Freedom of Mr Simon Burns: The information collected by the Information Act (FOIA) 2000 answered in part, information Department does not describe the use of medicines in was withheld as exempt under the provisions of the terms of doses or indicate the medical condition being FOIA from disclosure as follows2: treated. The following table shows the number prescription four instances withheld as exempt from disclosure under items for pentosan polysulfate tablets, written in the Section 12; United Kingdom or the Isle of Man and dispensed in two instances withheld as exempt from disclosure under the community, in England, together with the corresponding Section 21; physical quantity of tablets, measured in milligrams, one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under and net ingredient cost (NIC). Section 22; one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under Items Tablets Milligrams NIC Section 28; (Thousand) (Thousand) (Thousand) (£000) one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under 2005 0.3 45.4 4,247.6 63.0 Section 32; 2006 0.3 39.5 3,748.4 70.3 one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under 2007 0.2 31.6 2,968.9 72.0 Section 34; 2008 0.3 36.4 3,643.9 84.8 one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under 2009 0.3 34.8 3,476.8 155.2 Section 35; Source: one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under Prescription Cost Analysis (PCA) system. Section 36; Use of this drug in hospitals is limited and only the seven instances withheld as exempt from disclosure under topical form appears in the data. Figures cannot be Section 40; and given under the agreement with the data suppliers. one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under Section 42. Of the eight requests made under FOIA rejected or Departmental Redundancy withheld, information was withheld as exempt under the provisions of the FOIA from disclosure as follows: Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for six instances withheld as exempt from disclosure under Health what estimate he has made of the number of Section 12; redundancies arising from the spending reductions proposed one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under in the comprehensive spending review in respect of (a) Section 22; and his Department and (b) its non-departmental public one instance withheld as exempt from disclosure under bodies. [21563] Section 36. Since 2007, over 5,500 documents relating to Mr Simon Burns: The Government have announced contaminated blood and blood products have been that administration costs will reduce by a third in real placed on the Department’s website. Only five have terms across the public sector, including the health been withheld because they contain personal information. sector, and this was reaffirmed in the spending review. If further documents from this period are identified, This reduction in administration costs is expected to they will similarly be published. lead to some redundancies. However the number of 1 Pursuant to my previous answer, 1 November 2010, Official redundancies will be closely affected by how the one-third Report, column 630W, a further examination of the information reduction will be distributed across all organisations in held by the Department has identified that one request previously the health sector, including primary care trusts, strategic identified as being “answered in part” does not relate to the contamination of blood products during the 1970s and 1980s. health authorities, the Department and its arm’s length bodies; and to what extent staff numbers and costs in 2 In some instances more than one exemption applied to the requested information. all these bodies reduce through natural wastage or redeployments. CJD: Drugs Therefore we cannot know for certain at this stage what number of redundancies will arise in each organisation across the health sector. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department provides to health authorities on the use of pentosan polysulfate Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for for the treatment of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease; and if Health what estimate he has made of the cost to his he will make a statement. [22818] Department of staff redundancy in each of the next four years. [21564] Anne Milton: The Department has issued no guidance on the use of pentosan polysulphate to treat variant Mr Simon Burns: The Government have announced Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD). Pentosan polysulphate that administration costs will reduce by a third in real is not licensed for the treatment of vCJD, therefore its terms across the public sector, including the health use for this purpose is a clinical decision. sector, and this was reaffirmed in the spending review. This reduction in administration costs is expected to Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for lead to some redundancies. However the number of Health what estimate he has made of the (a) number redundancies will be closely affected by how the one-third of doses prescribed and (b) cost to the public purse of reduction will be distributed across all organisations in provision of pentosan polysulfate in each of the last the health sector, including primary care trusts, strategic five years. [22819] health authorities, the Department and its arm’s length 369W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 370W bodies; and to what extent staff numbers and costs in doctors working in Bolton, Bolton West and Greater all these bodies reduce through natural wastage or Manchester areas of the outcomes of the comprehensive redeployments. spending review. [22739] We intend to set out estimates of the cost of redundancies associated with the reduction in administration and Mr Simon Burns: The Government have already signalled management costs in an impact assessment. their commitment to real year-on-year increases in funding and the need to protect front line services. Doctors: Career Development Making highly skilled, professional staff redundant does not make the best use of limited national health Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Health service resources—nor does it benefit patients. Therefore, what steps he plans to take to (a) attract and (b) retain it should be considered only when all other options good quality junior doctors in the NHS during the have been exhausted. spending review period. [22732] It is local health care organisations, with their knowledge of the health care needs of their local populations, that Anne Milton: Management of recruitment to are best placed to determine the work force required to postgraduate medical training is coordinated nationally deliver safe patient care within their available resources. through the Medical Programme Board of Medical Education England in partnership with Royal Colleges, deaneries, lead employers, the United Kingdom Foundation Khat Programme Office and the General Practice National Recruitment Office. These arrangements have proved Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for successful with high fill rates high for most specialties. Health what research his Department has (a) commissioned Medical training is highly competitive with large numbers and (b) evaluated on the health effects of the use of of doctors competing for vacancies each year. Some khat. [22816] trainees do leave training programmes for a variety of reasons, but there is no evidence that this is an increasing Anne Milton: In March 2005 the Advisory Council trend. on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD) was asked to assess For the longer term, the Department has committed the extent of the harm posed by khat use in the United to publishing a consultation on proposals for education Kingdom, to the individual, their communities and to and training, based on the principles in the White Paper. society as a whole. The ACMD reported in January 2006. Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Health In October of this year, the Government asked the what mechanisms will be put in place to ensure ACMD to undertake a comprehensive review of the effective continuing training for doctors following the available evidence, to update its assessment and provide termination of primary care trusts. [22738] the Government with advice.

Anne Milton: The Department has committed to Kidney Dialysis publishing a consultation on proposals for education and training, based on the principles in the White Paper ‘Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS’. Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which primary care trusts provide kidney dialysis; and Drugs: Rehabilitation how many NHS patients have received dialysis treatment in the last 12 months. [22927] Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he plans to allow naltrexone to be Mr Simon Burns: Information is not available in administered to prisoners for the purposes of treating the format requested. Kidney dialysis is a specialised substance abuse. [22646] service which is commissioned by regional specialised commissioning groups on behalf of primary care trusts. Paul Burstow: Naltrexone is formally permitted in all Dialysis services are provided by 52 renal units in England adult prisons for the treatment of adult prisoners. Guidance and their satellites and may be provided at home for on its use was included in the clinical guidance issued by suitable patients. There is a list of the United Kingdom the Department in 2006: ‘Clinical management of drug renal units on the Renal Association website at: dependence in the adult prison setting including www.renal.org/whatwedo/InformationResources/ psychological treatment as a core part’. It is not licensed RenalUnits.aspx for treating young offenders. and the UK Renal Registry publishes an annual report Naltrexone is also supported for use in the community. which includes data on incidence and prevalence of Clinical guidelines were issued jointly by the Department people on dialysis. In December 2008, the latest date for and the devolved Administrations in 2007: ‘Drug Misuse which figures are available, 20,913 patients were receiving and dependence: UK Guidelines on Clinical Management’. dialysis in England. Copies of both guidelines have already been placed in the Library. Mental Health Services: Prisons

Health Services: Greater Manchester Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what services are available in prisons for the Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Health purposes of offering employment support to prisoners what estimate he has made of the likely effect on the with mental health disorders; and what steps he plans number of NHS (a) frontline staff and (b) junior to take to ensure the NHS Outcomes Framework 371W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 372W encourages prison health services to support more The future plans for specialised commissioning groups ex-offenders into paid employment following their are currently under consideration as part of the White release from prison. [22658] Paper consultation. The consultation closed on 11 October and we are currently analysing the responses. We will Mr Blunt: I have been asked to reply. respond to the consultation in due course. There is considerable employment support work No guidelines have been issued to specialised undertaken to help prisoners across the NOMS estate. commissioning groups for the purposes of reducing Much of this is undertaken in partnership with the unplanned emergency admissions to hospital for people Department for Business Innovation and Skills as well with neuromuscular conditions. as the Department of Work and Pensions. This support applies to all prisoners and takes into account individual’s NHS: Redundancy circumstances—including mental health issues. NOMS is a co-financing organisation and can draw Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for down European funding. The first round of this funding— Health if he will make an estimate of the likely cost to which lasts until December 2011 has a target that 46% the NHS of staff redundancy as a result of the of participants should have a learning disability/difficulties spending reductions proposed in the comprehensive and offenders with these issues will continue to be given spending review. [21577] prominence in delivery during round 2 (January 2011 to December 2014) although the target will be regional Mr Simon Burns: The Government have announced and not national. There is no specific mental health that administration costs will reduce by a third in real provision in round 1 for participants with mental health terms across the public sector, including the health issues, although there may be specific support contained sector, and this was reaffirmed in the spending review. in delivery plans from providers in round 2. This reduction in administration costs is expected to The Government will publish their response to the lead to some redundancies. However the number of NHS Outcomes Framework consultation shortly.However, redundancies will be closely affected by how the one-third the primary purpose of the NHS Outcomes Framework reduction will be distributed across all organisations in will be to focus on health outcomes, delivered by the the health sector, including primary care trusts, strategic national health service through treatment and health health authorities, the Department and its arms’ length care. bodies; and to what extent staff numbers and costs in all these bodies reduce through natural wastage or Neuromuscular Diseases: Health Services redeployments. We intend to set out estimates of the cost of redundancies Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health associated with the reduction in administration and (1) what plans he has for the delivery of specialist management costs in an impact assessment. neuromuscular services under the proposed national commissioning board; [22716] NHS: Voluntary Organisations (2) what steps he plans to take to ensure that neuromuscular services improve during the period in Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which his proposals for the reform of the NHS are what role he expects voluntary sector organisations to implemented; [22717] play in the future of the NHS. [22518] (3) what plans he has for the future of the NHS regional specialised commissioning groups; and if he Paul Burstow: Voluntary organisations will continue will make a statement; [22718] to make a vital contribution to health and care, not only (4) what guidelines his Department has issued to as the providers of services but also as advocates, partners NHS regional specialised commissioning groups on in the co-design of services and involving and engaging investment in specialist neuromuscular services for the local communities. purposes of reducing the level of unplanned emergency Voluntary organisations have valuable expertise, insight admissions to hospital for people with neuromuscular and experience that can improve local public services, conditions. [22719] often for the most excluded people in our communities. The voluntary sector is well placed to support Paul Burstow: The White Paper sets out our future commissioners in developing needs assessments and intentions for the commissioning of specialised services. commissioning guidelines. It proposes that specialised services, including some for Current examples of voluntary sector involvement people with neuromuscular conditions, will in future be include Mumsnet who have been particularly valuable commissioned by the NHS Commissioning Board. in helping to shape maternity services and Turning The White Paper makes it clear that general practitioner Point on the Connected Care Audit. (GP) consortia will work closely with secondary care, The Department is exploring a range of options to community partners and other health and care professionals ensure that we can maximise the potential contribution to design joined-up services that are responsive to patients of the voluntary sector. We plan to ensure that and the public. Commissioning by GP consortia will commissioners and providers across health care, public enable the redesign of care pathways to reflect the needs health and social care are able to harness the potential of their patients, which ultimately will lead to the more role of voluntary sector organisations in communities— effective management of long-term neuromuscular helping to build strong and resilient communities as conditions. part of the big society. 373W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 374W

Commissioning consortia will be able to decide which care. This means, with an ambitious programme of commissioning activities they undertake for themselves efficiency, that there is enough funding available both to and where they will choose to buy in expertise and protect people’s access to services and deliver new support from external organisations, including from approaches to improve quality and outcomes. voluntary sector organisations. Voluntary organisations We have achieved this by: could potentially strengthen the process of public and the national health service transferring some funding from the patient engagement and needs assessment through their health capital budget to health revenue, to be spent on measures knowledge and understanding of local people’s needs. that support social care, which also benefits health. This funding As part of the reforms, we aim to free up provision of will rise to £1 billion in 2014-15, and will promote improved health care, so that in most sectors of care, any willing joint working between the health and social care systems. Further details will be set out in the NHS Operating Framework provider can provide services that meet national health 2011-12; and service standards within NHS prices, giving patients additional grant funding, rising to £1 billion by 2014-15, will greater choice and ensuring effective competition stimulates be made available for social care. This funding will be allocated innovation, improves quality and increases productivity. in addition to the Department’s existing social care grants, We will look across government and public procurement which will rise in line with inflation. Total grant funding from to make sure that charities, voluntary organisations and the Department for social care will reach £2.4 billion by social enterprises have maximum opportunities to offer 2014-15. In order to support local flexibility and to reduce health and care services. administrative burdens, this funding will go to authorities through the revenue support grant. We are committed to promoting continuous improvement I recently attended the National Children and Adult in the quality of services for patients and greater Social Care Conference where I met with 11 members opportunities for the involvement of voluntary providers and directors of Adult Social Care to discuss the impact in offering more responsive and personalised services. of the Government’s decision to prioritise social care in We are aware that this period of transition will be the spending review. worrying for voluntary organisations. We are keen, Pressures on my diary mean that I am unable to therefore, that primary care trusts (PCTs) engage with accept the request for a meeting, but if the hon. Member all of their stakeholders during this transition period. or representatives from West Sussex county council This includes working in close partnership with all have any questions about the spending review settlement, organisations that they hold funding agreements with I would welcome correspondence on this matter. through both grant and contract arrangements, recognising the principles of the Compact. It is vitally important that we do not lose vital local BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS services that achieve high quality outcomes and we will therefore work with PCT’s in the transition to the new Apprentices arrangements with the NHS Commissioning Board and general practitioner commissioning consortia, as they Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for develop, to ensure that the sector’s contribution to Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer improved health, public health and social care is recognised. of 18 October 2010, Official Report, columns 595-6W, on apprentices, if he will publish the feedback provided Prescriptions: Fees and Charges by the Apprenticeship Ambassador Network since 2006; and what steps (a) current Ministers, (b) Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for previous Ministers and (c) the Skills Funding Agency Health what progress he has made on the phasing out of and its predecessor organisations have taken as a result prescription charges for patients with long-term conditions of advice from the Network. [23045] following the outcome of the comprehensive spending review; and if he will make a statement. [23095] Mr Hayes: The primary role of the Apprenticeship Ambassadors Network (AAN) is to promote greater Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the employer engagement with apprenticeships. I welcome written answer I gave on 25 October 2010, Official the contribution which the AAN gives to the apprenticeship Report, column 126W,to the hon. Member for Hartlepool programme, both as our eyes and ears in respect of the (Mr Wright). quality of apprenticeships and the delivery system; and as ambassadors to encourage others to offer apprenticeships. Social Services: West Sussex In this time of fiscal restraint, it is both important and powerful to have such blue chip businesses and Peter Bottomley: To ask the Secretary of State for business leaders championing apprenticeships to employers, Health if he will meet West Sussex county council’s and therefore the role of the AAN becomes increasingly cabinet members for adults’ services and future finance important. The AAN has provided valuable advice and and resources to discuss the likely effects of demographic feedback to Ministers and others since its creation in changes in West Sussex on (a) the provision of and (b) 2006. Issues covered have included: eligibility for adult social care in that area. [22560] the skills strategy and the contribution of apprenticeships; apprenticeship framework design, content and levels of Paul Burstow: The spending review recognises the qualification; importance of social care in protecting most vulnerable careers advice and guidance; in society. In recognition of the pressures on the social reducing bureaucracy; care system in a challenging local government settlement, diversity; the coalition Government have allocated an additional pay; £2 billion by 2014-15 to support the delivery of social role and function of the National Apprenticeship Service; 375W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 376W

online vacancy matching service; and Mr Willetts: The Medical Research Council (MRC) progression to HE. has funded basic research into transmissible spongiform This is achieved through Ministers attending AAN encephalopathies (TSEs) including Creutzfeldt Jakob meetings at which employer engagement and policy disease (CJD) since the late 1970s. The MRC continues issues are discussed, Ministers and senior officials speaking to fund research across the spectrum from basic biological at events hosted by members, correspondence and meetings studies through to applied clinical research. on specific issues and the AAN responding to BIS and In the last three years, MRC expenditure on TSE was other consultation exercises. The feedback of the AAN as follows: helps to ensure that the programme is fit for purpose, that numbers increase and quality continues to improve. 2007/08: £6.8 million The AAN has also commissioned work in two important 2008/09: £8.9 million areas to inform the policy debate; the net benefit to 2009/10 : £9.9 million. employer investment in apprenticeships (IER 2008) and a comparative international study of apprenticeships Much of this research is conducted by the MRC (CEP, 2010). These reports, alongside details of the Prion Unit, an international centre of excellence focussing AAN’s work and membership, minutes of meetings, principally on human prion disease, as well as through consultation responses, letters and speeches are all published other TSE researchers working in universities throughout on the AAN website: www.employersforapprentices.gov.uk. the UK. As this research is still ongoing, it is too early I am happy for this to include correspondence between to report on outcomes. MRC welcomes proposals in all myself and the AAN in the future. areas of TSE research and particularly in the development of new diagnostic tests and therapeutics. In addition, CJD: Research MRC encourages TSE research that may also inform on the basic mechanisms of other neurodegenerative disorders. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills for what research A list of the relevant research projects that have projects into Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease the Medical received MRC funding, between 2007/8 and 2009/10 is Research Council has provided funding in each of the below. Further information on these projects, as well as last three years; and what the outcomes of those other research supported by the MRC can be found at: projects were. [22954] http://www.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchPortfolio/index.htm

Reference Principal investigator Research organisation Research project

G0301136 Professor V H Perry University of Southampton Prion strains and behaviour G0501636 Dr V 0 Connor University of Southampton Molecular and cellular basis of synaptic dysfunction in the ME7 model of prion disease (TSE highlight) G0600953 Professor J Ironside University of Edinburgh The NCJDSU Tissue Resource: support for continued banking activities G0700640 Professor J Manson BBSRC Roslin Institute Assessing the risk of transmission of vCJD via blood transfusion and identifying potential for diagnosis and prevention G0700877 Dr S Tabrizi Institute of Neurology Cellular mechanisms of prion-mediated neurodegeneration G0701068 Mrs C F Farquhar University of Edinburgh Refining the clinical use of pentosan polysulphate for TSEs: animal models of intravenous infection and intervention G9824728 Professor N Hooper University of Leeds Amyloid precursor protein and prion protein: cellular functions, processing and roles in neurodegeneration G0802189 Professor N M Hooper University of Leeds Alzheimers and prion diseases: cellular and genetic mechanisms of neurodegeneration G0900580 Professor J Ironside University of Edinburgh The NCJDSU Tissue Resource: support for continued banking activities U105260794 Professor S M Bird MRC Biostatistics Unit Transmissible disease epidemiology and statistical science in public health, criminal justice and performance monitoring U122886350 Professor J Collinge MRC Clinical Trials Unit Communicable diseases - human prion disease and malaria U123160651 Dr S Mead MRC Prion Unit Human molecular genetics and bioinformatics U123160652 Dr S E Lloyd MRC Prion Unit Prion genetic modifiers in the mouse U123160653 Dr E A Asante MRC Prion Unit Transgenic modelling of human prion diseases, intermammalian transmission barriers and assessing candidate therapeutics U123160654 Professor G Mallucci MRC Prion Unit Normal cellular function of PrP: study of PrP null mice and conditional gene expression studies U123160655 Dr J Wadsworth MRC Prion Unit Molecular and phenotypic analysis of human prion strains 377W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 378W

Reference Principal investigator Research organisation Research project

U123160656 Professor A R Clarke MRC Prion Unit Structural studies of prion proteins and their ligand interactions U123160657 Professor M Alpers MRC Prion Unit Kuru Field Studies in Papua New Guinea U123170362 Dr G S Jackson MRC Prion Unit Molecular diagnostic strategies in prion disease U123182016 Dr P Klein MRC Prion Unit Cellular mechanisms of prion propagation U123192748 Professor J Collinge MRC Prion Unit Prion kinetics, toxicity and synthesis and its wider relevance U132692719 Professor G Mallucci MRC Toxicology Unit In vivo models of disease and toxicity in the nervous system

EU Grants and Loans Higher Education: Admissions

Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, George Eustice: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation and Skills how many (a) applicants and (b) Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has successful applicants from each socio-economic group had with his EU counterparts on future arrangements there were for places on undergraduate degree courses for the administration of payments out of EU to study (i) medicine, (ii) accounting, (iii) law, (iv) Structural Funds. [22538] veterinary medicine, (v) engineering and (vi) dentistry at universities in England in each year since 2001. Mr Prisk [holding answer 9 November 2010]: To date [22143] I have not had any direct discussions with my EU counterparts on future arrangements for the administration Mr Willetts: The latest information, which has been of payments out of EU structural funds. In England, provided by the Universities and Colleges Admissions the Department for Work and Pensions has operational Service (UCAS), is given in the table. The National responsibility for the European social fund and the Statistics Socio-economic Classification (NS-SEC) was Department for Communities and Local Government introduced in 2002. UCAS have not released NS-SEC has operational responsibility for the European regional data for 2009 entry. Final figures for 2010 entry will be development fund. available in January 2011.

UK domiciled applicants and accepted applicants to institutions in England by subject and National Statistics Socio-Economic Classification (NS-SEC), years of entry 2002 to 2008 2002 2003 2004 2005 Accepted Accepted Accepted Accepted Subject NS-SEC Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants

A1—Pre- 1. Higher 3,486 2,093 4,107 2,198 4,710 2,266 4,788 2,067 clinical managerial and medicine professional occupations 2. Lower 2,347 1,219 3,057 1,403 3,647 1,471 3,769 1,353 managerial and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 924 513 1,123 534 1,388 554 1,432 533 occupations 4. Small employers 374 166 447 220 552 205 569 211 and own account workers 5. Lower 160 79 246 102 316 108 267 89 supervisory and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 619 269 727 303 1,049 386 1,192 363 occupations 7. Routine 225 97 260 107 301 86 295 84 occupations Unknown 1,302 561 2,091 747 2,414 679 3,547 996

A2—Pre- 1. Higher 467 215 485 205 544 215 646 251 clinical managerial and dentistry professional occupations 2. Lower 395 177 432 167 483 173 525 192 managerial and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 170 59 183 69 196 69 261 99 occupations 379W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 380W

UK domiciled applicants and accepted applicants to institutions in England by subject and National Statistics Socio-Economic Classification (NS-SEC), years of entry 2002 to 2008 2002 2003 2004 2005 Accepted Accepted Accepted Accepted Subject NS-SEC Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants

4. Small employers 104 35 124 39 137 35 138 48 and own account workers 5. Lower 51 18 55 20 59 14 65 16 supervisory and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 123 56 150 54 186 51 222 72 occupations 7. Routine 54 20 39 7 71 24 68 12 occupations Unknown 209 60 274 79 337 73 572 147

D1—Pre- 1. Higher 520 203 506 205 423 219 343 193 clinical managerial and veterinary professional medicine occupations 2. Lower 430 149 410 159 375 162 322 155 managerial and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 179 42 159 55 160 73 119 60 occupations 4. Small employers 114 30 103 41 94 37 94 41 and own account workers 5. Lower 68 19 60 20 59 29 59 22 supervisory and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 102 17 111 27 95 33 99 38 occupations 7. Routine 39 6 42 9 38 8 37 13 occupations Unknown 113 42 152 41 135 53 243 113

H—Engineering 1. Higher 5,950 2,576 5,603 2,408 5,492 2,460 5,251 2,352 managerial and professional occupations 2. Lower 7,327 3,011 6,749 2,738 6,411 2,648 6,255 2,701 managerial and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 3,685 1,534 3,092 1,269 3,147 1,342 3,018 1,281 occupations 4. Small employers 1,890 722 1,775 664 1,667 630 1,638 669 and own account workers 5. Lower 1,502 655 1,613 685 1,456 592 1,361 585 supervisory and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 3,739 1,462 3,396 1,405 3,089 1,272 3,244 1,336 occupations 7. Routine 1,505 613 1,354 486 1,284 491 1,279 500 occupations Unknown 4,915 2,612 5,117 2,736 4,690 2,574 6,184 3,180

M—Law 1. Higher 4,480 2,416 4,848 2,563 4,850 2,463 4,084 2,183 managerial and professional occupations 2. Lower 6,029 3,072 6,950 3,393 7,195 3,386 6,509 3,171 managerial and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 2,972 1,504 3,255 1,631 3,520 1,699 3,294 1,583 occupations 4. Small employers 1,478 701 1,671 765 1,773 831 1,668 761 and own account workers 381W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 382W

UK domiciled applicants and accepted applicants to institutions in England by subject and National Statistics Socio-Economic Classification (NS-SEC), years of entry 2002 to 2008 2002 2003 2004 2005 Accepted Accepted Accepted Accepted Subject NS-SEC Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants

5. Lower 909 430 1,079 489 1,112 510 1,044 517 supervisory and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 2,428 1,184 2,888 1,292 2,943 1,387 3,146 1,456 occupations 7. Routine 1,226 533 1,385 626 1,528 691 1,544 670 occupations Unknown 3,656 2,185 4,448 2,526 4,831 2,699 6,580 3,648

N4—Accounting 1. Higher 1,052 454 938 401 1,042 446 945 399 managerial and professional occupations 2. Lower 1,521 674 1,461 684 1,639 678 1,574 720 managerial and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 903 451 912 420 931 420 884 412 occupations 4. Small employers 479 193 471 212 549 242 560 246 and own account workers 5. Lower 305 144 315 141 333 150 335 148 supervisory and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 838 378 873 449 924 407 997 462 occupations 7. Routine 436 196 440 200 492 228 504 232 occupations Unknown 1,199 755 1,375 871 1,645 894 2,028 1,164

Total 72,999 34,600 77,351 35,865 80,312 36,163 83,598 37,544

2006 2007 2008 Accepted Accepted Accepted Subject NS-SEC Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants

A1—Pre-clinical 1. Higher managerial 4,754 2,215 4,506 2,141 4,492 2,110 medicine and professional occupations 2. Lower managerial 3,446 1,272 3,387 1,270 3,445 1,300 and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 1,446 546 1,386 510 1,484 570 occupations 4. Small employers and 523 191 560 200 537 184 own account workers 5. Lower supervisory 263 94 289 100 284 110 and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 1,151 355 1,296 361 1,435 500 occupations 7. Routine occupations 322 93 299 89 372 114 Unknown 3,592 1,000 3,397 930 2,609 784

A2—Pre-clinical 1. Higher managerial 646 247 701 283 731 288 dentistry and professional occupations 2. Lower managerial 524 167 545 162 565 168 and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 246 84 259 102 288 103 occupations 4. Small employers and 140 42 169 57 153 40 own account workers 5. Lower supervisory 71 24 73 17 54 18 and technical occupations 383W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 384W

2006 2007 2008 Accepted Accepted Accepted Subject NS-SEC Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants

6. Semi-routine 240 73 287 71 285 86 occupations 7. Routine occupations 88 22 89 22 76 20 Unknown 566 147 582 157 488 129

D1—Pre-clinical 1. Higher managerial 331 212 403 224 475 201 veterinary and professional medicine occupations 2. Lower managerial 288 151 383 175 422 136 and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 129 71 168 70 207 82 occupations 4. Small employers and 113 57 107 42 144 50 own account workers 5. Lower supervisory 40 17 53 18 55 17 and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 82 37 141 53 157 60 occupations 7. Routine occupations 40 13 57 16 68 26 Unknown 245 108 310 117 249 71

H—Engineering 1. Higher managerial 4,784 2,175 5,145 2,306 4,858 2,397 and professional occupations 2. Lower managerial 5,983 2,443 6,052 2,563 5,798 2,663 and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 2,720 1,145 2,801 1,197 2,735 1,273 occupations 4. Small employers and 1,573 634 1,576 617 1,519 690 own account workers 5. Lower supervisory 1,208 510 1,291 513 1,268 589 and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 2,703 1,121 2,988 1,222 3,073 1,408 occupations 7. Routine occupations 1,070 428 1,261 500 1,193 525 Unknown 5,719 3,043 5,657 3,029 5,617 3,335

M—Law 1. Higher managerial 3,931 2,124 3,987 2,234 3,825 2,289 and professional occupations 2. Lower managerial 5,824 2,949 6,096 3,117 5,821 3,261 and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 2,816 1,387 2,932 1,470 3,051 1,663 occupations 4. Small employers and 1,765 851 1,841 916 1,673 929 own account workers 5. Lower supervisory 971 457 961 473 868 450 and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 2,889 1,362 2,906 1,416 3,273 1,751 occupations 7. Routine occupations 1,355 635 1,467 690 1,520 808 Unknown 6,034 3,540 6,052 3,767 5,980 4,146

N4—Accounting 1. Higher managerial 945 390 1,030 408 1,012 373 and professional occupations 2. Lower managerial 1,520 645 1,647 645 1,655 685 and professional occupations 3. Intermediate 844 366 905 386 951 401 occupations 385W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 386W

2006 2007 2008 Accepted Accepted Accepted Subject NS-SEC Applicants applicants Applicants applicants Applicants applicants

4. Small employers and 626 251 591 237 647 248 own account workers 5. Lower supervisory 296 131 324 128 309 119 and technical occupations 6. Semi-routine 992 458 1,106 471 1,159 507 occupations 7. Routine occupations 490 227 538 225 550 222 Unknown 2,001 1,147 2,119 1,210 2,075 1,277

Total 78,345 35,657 80,720 36,927 79,505 39,176 Notes: 1. “Applicants” covers applicants who have made one or more applications to the specified subject. 2. Applicants applying to medicine, dentistry and veterinary medicine courses can submit up to four applications. Those applying to other subjects in 2008 could submit up to five applications; in 2007 and earlier years they could submit up to six applications. 3. UCAS uses the Standard Occupational Classification 2000 and assigns socio-economic status based on an applicant’s parental occupation (or the occupation of the person contributing the highest income to the household if the applicant is aged 21 years or over), and uses a simplified version of the National Statistics Socio-economic Classification (NS-SEC) since UCAS does not collect employment status or size of organisation from applicants. Provision of this information is voluntary and it is not passed to institutions until after the selection process. Socio-economic status data are available only for home (UK-domiciled) applicants. UCAS is not releasing NS-SEC data for 2009. Source: UCAS.

Higher Education: Student Numbers Innovation

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills what powers and Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the responsibilities the Technology Strategy Board will have number of students who had been educated in (a) in relation to his proposed innovation centres. [23242] Wansbeck constituency, (b) Northumberland and (c) the UK who were at university in the last 12 months. Mr Willetts: The overall network of centres will be [22926] established and overseen by the Technology Strategy Board but individual centres will have a high degree of autonomy so they can respond to business needs. Mr Willetts: Figures for higher education enrolments who were educated in Wansbeck constituency, The Technology Strategy Board will work with industry, Northumberland county and the UK are not available. stakeholders, and wider government to identify the As an alternative, figures for enrolments to higher education priority areas and governance structure for the elite institutions who were resident in Wansbeck constituency, network of Technology and Innovation Centres by Northumberland local authority and the UK have been April 2011. provided in the table as an alternative. National Apprenticeship Service The latest available information from the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) relates to the 2008/09 academic year. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for will be available in January 2011. The Department has Business, Innovation and Skills who the (a) Chief recently received updated postcode information; therefore Executive and (b) Chairman of the National figures in the answer may not match those previously Apprenticeship Service is; how long each has been in published. Figures exclude students studying higher post; how much each is paid, including any pension education level courses at further education colleges. contributions from the employer; and in which publications and on which websites each post was advertised when it Undergraduate enrolments1 from Wansbeck parliamentary constituency2, Northumberland local authority2, and the UK—UK was last vacant. [22734] higher education institutions academic year 2008/09 Area Undergraduate enrolments Mr Hayes: Simon Waugh was appointed to the role of chief executive of the newly formed National Wansbeck 2,075 Apprenticeship Service in January 2009. The role was Northumberland 8,570 advertised in the Sunday Times and on the Times Online, UK 1,673,655 and by the recruitment consultants, Gatenby Sanderson. 1 Enrolments cover students in all years of study, not just first year The role was created in 2009 and Simon has been the students. only person to hold this position. In the summer of 2 Excludes enrolments whose parliamentary constituency or local authority could not be established due to missing or invalid postcode 2010, my Department agreed to Simon becoming executive information. chairman. Prior to this, the role of chairman of the Note: National Apprenticeship Service did not exist. Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. The National Apprenticeship Service is embedded in Source: the Skills Funding Agency which was created on 1 April Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). 2010. Salary information for all Skills Funding Agency 387W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 388W and National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) senior civil Skills Funding Agency: Manpower servants, including Simon Waugh’s are available on the Skills Funding Agency website Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for http://skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk/aboutus/ Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff are transparencyingovernment/salary/index.htm employed by the Skills Funding Agency specifically to work on communications and campaigns; and what National Scholarship Fund recent discussions he has had with the Chief Executive of the Agency on this level of staffing. [22733] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Hayes: Decisions about the number of staff within for Business, Innovation and Skills how he expects the the Skills Funding Agency who work on communications National Scholarship Fund to operate; and who he and campaigns are an operational matter for Geoff expects to be eligible for awards from the Fund. [22675] Russell, the chief executive of Skills Funding. I have therefore asked him to reply direct to my hon. Friend. Mr Willetts [holding answer 8 November 2010]: All universities that want to charge a higher graduate I have not had any recent discussions with the chief contribution than the £6,000 threshold will be obliged executive of Skills Funding on the number of Skills to participate in the National Scholarships programme. Funding Agency staff working in these areas. However, We will consult students and university organisations as is the case with all public bodies, the Skills Funding on the details. We will look to increase the leverage of Agency is being streamlined. It is already making an Government funding by getting matched contributions 11% additional saving in 2010-11 and will be expected from universities. Our current preference is for universities to make further significant savings to its administrative to offer scholarships to targeted students—including costs over the spending review period. the principal beneficiaries of the pupil premium—that Students: Fees and Charges would mean at least their first year is free. Other attractive ideas include expanding the model of a foundation year for young people with high potential but lower Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State qualifications. for Business, Innovation and Skills who he plans to consult on options for mechanisms to enable early repayment of tuition fee loans; and if he will make a Regional Growth Fund statement. [22676]

Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Willetts [holding answer 8 November 2010]: The Innovation and Skills with reference to the Local Growth Government are committed to the progressive nature of White Paper, Cm 7961, what timescale he has set for the the repayment system. It is therefore important that establishment of growth hubs. [22650] those on the highest incomes post graduation are not able unfairly to buy themselves out of this progressive Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation system by paying off their loans early. We will consult and Skills will set out its plans for business improvement, on potential early repayment mechanisms—similar to including growth hubs, in more detail shortly. those paid by people who pre-pay their mortgages. These mechanisms would need to ensure that graduates on modest incomes who strive to pay off their loans Science: Finance early through regular payments are not penalised. For example, a 5% levy might be charged on additional Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for repayments each year over a specified amount such as Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has £1,000 or £3,000. Alternatively, those on higher incomes made of the sum in private sector funding likely to be (eg over £60,000) who made an additional repayment attracted by each £1 in science funding from the public could be required to pay a 5% levy on this sum. We will purse over the comprehensive spending review period. consult with students, universities, higher education [23060] bodies and other experts.

Mr Willetts: The Government does not have an explicit estimate of the amount of private sector funding attracted DEFENCE by £1 of public spending on science—with the significant degrees of uncertainty involved, such an estimate is Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations likely to be unreliable. In 2008 (the most recent year for which data is Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for available) Government expenditure on research and Defence how many Royal Air Force personnel are development and higher education expenditure on research deployed in Afghanistan in support of combat aircraft and development, together known as public sector flying operations. [21839] expenditure on research and development, was equal to 0.162+0.469 or 0.631% of gross domestic product. Business Nick Harvey [holding answer 4 November 2010]: The expenditure on research and development, which includes RAF currently has approximately 1,900 personnel deployed financing from abroad, 1.097% of gross domestic product. in Afghanistan. The specific number of RAF personnel Therefore for every £1 of public research and development supporting Tornado GR4 in Afghanistan is being withheld expenditure in 2008 there was £1.74 of business research as the information could prejudice the capability, and development expenditure. effectiveness or security of the armed forces. 389W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 390W

Afghanistan: Security Forces Live Fire: Ball/Tracer up to 30mm (including 7.62mm, 0.5 inch, 20mm, Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 27mm, 30mm) pursuant to the answer of 22 October 2010, Official 5401b HE (Freefall and Retarded) Report, column 881W, on Afghanistan: security forces, 10001b HE (Freefall and Retarded) if he will discuss with his Afghan counterpart the Practice Weapons: recruitment and desertion statistics for the Afghan UK and US Practice bombs police and army referred to in his Answer. [20589] 5401b HE Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) 10001b HE Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) Dr Fox: I regularly talk to Defence Minister Wardak on a range of issues including the Afghan National Paveway II, III and IV inert laser guided bombs Security Forces (ANSF). DTE Tain Working closely with the Government of Afghanistan, Live Fire: we continue to make progress in enhancing the capacity Ball/Tracer up to 30mm (including 7.62mm, 0.5 inch, 20mm, and capability of the ANSF,including on specific measures 27mm, 30mm) to improve recruitment and retention. However, these Practice Weapons: issues are ultimately matters for the Government of 3kg Afghanistan. 14kg 5401b High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) Air Force: Military Bases 10001b High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) CRV-7 Inert (Ground Attack Rocket) Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for BDU-33(Practice Bomb) (a) (b) Defence which live fire and practice weapons BDU-50 (Freefall and Retarded) (Practice Bomb) are permitted for use at (i) RAF Wainfleet, (ii) RAF Donna Nook, (iii) RAF Holbeach, (iv) RAF West BDU-56 (Freefall) (Practice Bomb) Freugh, (v) RAF Tain and (vi) the Cape Wrath Range. DTE Cape Wrath [22950] Live Fire: Ball/Tracer up to 105mm (including 7.62mm, 0.5 inch, 20mm, Mr Robathan: RAF Wainfleet was closed on 3 December 27mm, 30mm, 40mm, 105 mm) 2009. Details of the live fire and practice weapons 10001b High Explosive (Freefall and Retarded) permitted for use at Defence Training Estate (DTE) Mk-82 High Explosive (Freefall and Retarded) Donna Nook, DTE Holbeach, MOD West Freugh, Practice Weapons: DTE Tain and DTE Cape Wrath are detailed as follows: 3kg DTE Donna Nook 14kg Live Fire: 10001b High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) Ball/Tracer up to 30mm (including 7.62mm, 0.5 inch, 20mm, Inert Paveway II 27mm, 30mm) CRV-7 Inert (Ground Attack Rocket) Practice Weapons: 10001b High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) 3kg BDU-33(Practice Bomb) 14kg BDU-50 (Freefall and Retarded) (Practice Bomb) 5401b High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) BDU-56 (Freefall) (Practice Bomb) 10001b High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) Mk-82 High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) CRV-7 Inert (Ground Attack Rocket) Mk-84 High Explosive Simulated (Freefall) BDU-33(Practice Bomb) BDU-50 (Freefall and Retarded) (Practice Bomb) Aircraft Carriers: Military Aircraft BDU-56 (Freefall) (Practice Bomb) DTE Holbeach Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Live Fire: Defence what assessment he has made of the effects on Ball/Tracer up to 30mm (including 7.62mm, 0.5 inch, 20mm, the aeronautical industry of not proceeding with his 27mm, 30mm) TOW (Tube-launched Optically Tracked Wire Department’s proposals for the short take-off and command data link guided missile) vertical landing aircraft variant for the new aircraft Practice Weapons: carriers. [21333] 3kg 14kg Peter Luff [holding answer 2 November 2010]: The 5401b High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) decision to purchase the Carrier Variant of the Joint 10001b High Explosive Simulated (Freefall and Retarded) Strike Fighter was made on operational grounds. It offers advantages in terms of interoperability with allies, CRV-7 Inert (Ground Attack Rocket) range, and pay load and through life costs over the BDU-33 (Practice Bomb) Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) variant. BDU-50 (Freefall and Retarded) (Practice Bomb) The industrial implications of the key strategic defence BDU-56 (Freefall) (Practice Bomb) and security review choices were given careful consideration, MOD West Freugh but we have not made a specific assessment of the This unit is operated and managed by QinetiQ on behalf of the impact on the aeronautical industry of the decision to MOD and is cleared for use of the following air-launched weapons: proceed with the Carrier Variant of the Joint Strike 391W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 392W

Fighter, rather than the STOVL version. However, UK testing facilities. Both are fully consistent with our companies have a significant interest in the overall Joint obligations under the treaty on the non-proliferation of Strike Fighter programme, including the carrier and nuclear weapons. Conventional Take-Off and Landing (CTOL) variants. HMS Astute Armed Forces: Housing Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many civilians were aboard HMS Astute Defence whether service family accommodation in when it ran aground on 22 October 2010; and what the North Kingston is included in his Department’s role of each was. [20760] upgrade programme. [22879] Peter Luff: There were 17 civilians aboard HMS Mr Robathan: Work is under way to provide new Astute at the time of the grounding incident. Of these, kitchens, bathrooms, heating systems and electrical rewiring 16 were contractors: 11 from BAE Systems Submarine to 50 service family accommodation (SFA) properties Solutions; two from Atlas, two from Thales; and one in North Kingston. from QinetiQ. In addition, there was one civilian on board from the Ministry of Defence. The coalition Government are looking to see what further improvements to the SFA estate as a whole, These civilians were present to support ongoing weapons including properties in Kingston, can be funded from and combat systems trials and training. efficiencies elsewhere in the Department. Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Fighters Armed Forces: Private Education Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many Joint Strike Fighter F-35 fighters he Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to order; and what timescale he has set for their Defence how many children of service personnel receive entry into service. [20416] funding from his Department to attend independent schools. [22765] Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 3 November 2010, Official Report, columns Mr Robathan: For financial year 2009-10, there were 852-53W, to the hon. Members for Glenrothes (Lindsay 9,020 children of service personnel who attended fee Roy), North Durham (Mr Kevan Jones) and Moray paying schools and received financial assistance from (Angus Robertson). the Ministry of Defence through the Continuity of Educational Allowance (CEA) scheme. It is not possible Military Aircraft: Helicopters to differentiate independent schools so this figure includes all CEA eligible schools: private sector, public and state Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for boarding schools. Defence when he expects the short study on the helicopter platform capabilities for HMS Ocean and HMS Illustrious Falkland Islands: Deployment to report; and when he expects to make a decision on the future of such capabilities. [19985] David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what naval capability he expects to be available Peter Luff: The study is expected to report its conclusions for operations relating to the Falkland Islands in the shortly. A decision on how our future landing platform next 10 years. [23001] helicopter capability should be provided will be announced in due course. Nick Harvey: We are firmly committed to the defence of the Falkland Islands and will maintain a permanent Nimrod MR4A maritime presence in the South Atlantic consisting of a destroyer or frigate and a patrol vessel. Other naval Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for vessels may visit from time to time and a ship will also Defence where the Nimrod MR4A aircraft designated deploy to Antarctic waters for the ice patrol task each PA04 is stationed. [20761] austral summer. The permanent maritime presence can be reinforced rapidly by other Royal Navy ships and Peter Luff: Nimrod MRA4 aircraft PA04 is stationed submarines, should the need arise. at BAE Systems Warton. France: Military Alliances Peacekeeping Operations: Middle East

Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence what assessment he has made of the compliance what his most recent estimate is of the number of of the defence sharing agreement with France with the civilian deaths in Afghanistan consequent on actions UK’s obligations under the nuclear non-proliferation by (a) Coalition forces and (b) insurgents since treaty. [22839] October 2001. [20591]

Nick Harvey [holding answer 9 November 2010]: At Dr Fox: We deeply regret all civilian casualties. Protecting the 2 November 2010 UK-France summit, we signed the Afghan civilian population is a cornerstone of the two treaties, one on long-term defence and security international security assistance force’s (ISAF) mission, co-operation and one on shared nuclear hydrodynamics and all British troops undergo comprehensive training 393W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 394W on the strict rules of engagement. Where incidents do JUSTICE occur procedures are in place to ensure they are promptly reported to the chain of command and follow up actions Alternatives to Prison take place in accordance with ISAF and UK national procedures. This contrasts directly with the attitude of Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for the insurgents, whose indiscriminate use of suicide bombs, Justice what steps his Department is taking to increase roadside explosive devices and human shields cause the the use of community sentences for prisoners on short majority of civilian deaths and injuries in Afghanistan. prison sentences. [22648] We will continue our efforts to prevent insurgents harming civilians and to develop the capacity of Afghan security Mr Blunt: We want to see sentencing that is effective forces to protect the population. in rehabilitating offenders so that they do not offend The Ministry of Defence does not record figures for again. This includes increased use of community sentences insurgent or civilian casualties in Afghanistan because where they are more effective than short prison sentences of the immense difficulty and risks that would be involved in providing punishment and rehabilitation, and in helping in collecting robust data. offenders come off drugs. We have announced that we are conducting an assessment of sentencing, looking at the full range of penalties and Shipbuilding restorative measures available in the criminal justice system, including community sentences. We will publish a Green Paper before the end of the year, setting out Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State plans to reform sentencing and rehabilitate offenders for Defence what estimate he has made of the number more effectively. of shipyards in the UK which are surplus to requirements. [22488] Criminal Injuries Compensation

Peter Luff [holding answer 9 November 2010]: As set Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for out in the strategic defence and security review, the Justice whether any internal reviews of criminal injuries Ministry of Defence has a continuing large programme compensation have recommended changes to the categories of investment in new warships. The Department is of person eligible for compensation through the Criminal committed to working with the UK shipbuilding industry Injuries Compensation Scheme. [23101] to ensure delivery of our future military requirements. It will, however, be for industry to retain the capacity it Mr Blunt: The Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme deems necessary in order to meet the demands made is currently subject to review. No decisions have been of it. made. Data Protection: Internet Strategic Defence and Security Review Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent discussions he has had with the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Office of the Information Commissioner on the adequacy Defence (1) what estimate he has made of the saving to of the provisions of the Data Protection Act 1998 to the public purse from his planned reduction in the protect personal data online. [22703] number of (a) operational and (b) stockpiled warheads; [19986] Mr Djanogly: There are regular discussions between the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) and the Information (2) what estimate he has made of the saving to the Commissioner’s Office (ICO) on the provisions of the public purse arising from reductions in the number of Data Protection Act (DPA) and their adequacy for both warheads on Vanguard submarines. [19987] online and offline data processing. As part of this ongoing dialogue, the ICO responded to the MoJ’s Call Dr Fox: The Ministry of Defence made estimates of for Evidence on the DPA and the European Data the cost savings accrued from measures in the strategic Protection Directive. In addition, discussions took place defence and security review for the purposes of formulating between the MoJ and the ICO about the ICO’s Personal policy. However, final savings figures will depend on Information Online Code of Practice during for the detailed implementation. The MOD is therefore not ICO’s public consultation. prepared to release more detailed figures at this time. Departmental Public Expenditure Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what meetings each Minister in his Department Dr Phillip Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for had with representatives of the defence industry to Justice what mechanisms are in place to ensure that his discuss the strategic defence and security review prior to Department’s decisions on regional funding allocations are based on the most recent available population data. its publication. [21334] [20696]

Dr Fox: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice does not contribute on 26 October 2010, Official Report, column 202W, to to any single regional pot of funding. Funding allocations the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan to local authority Youth Offending Teams are based on Reynolds). a formula which includes population data. Following 395W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 396W the spending review, we are reviewing the YOT grant John Hirst formula in order to bring it up to date and will work with the Department for Communities and Local David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Government to ensure that it includes the most recent Justice if the Probation Service will (a) consider the available population data. compliance of John Hirst with the terms of his licence Fines: Surcharges for release from custody and (b) recall him from his release on licence. [22623] Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Blunt: It would not be appropriate, for operational how much was raised through the victims’ surcharge in reasons, to place in the public domain information each of the last three years for which figures are regarding the management on licence of an individual available. [22740] offender. Mr Blunt: I refer the hon. Member to my reply given However, an offender who is in the community and to the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham on a life licence is liable to be recalled to prison, where Stringer) on 24 June 2010, Official Report, column his behaviour suggests he presents an unacceptable risk 280W. to life or limb. The Victim Surcharge was introduced on the 1 April Prison Sentences 2007. Between 2007-08 to 2009-10 the Victim Surcharge raised £21,079,310. It produced approximately £3.8 million in 2007-08, £8.1 million in 2008-09 and £9.2 million for Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10. Justice (1) how many people who were given custodial sentences of up to two years were convicted of each Google offence in the latest year for which figures are available; [22773] Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many people who were given custodial Justice whether he has discussed Google’s Street View sentences of up to 12 months were convicted of each project with the Information Commissioner. [22704] offence in the latest year for which figures are available. [22774] Mr Djanogly: UK data protection legislation is enforced independently of Government by the Information Mr Blunt: Information showing the number of persons Commissioner’s Office (ICO) and it would not be sentenced to immediate custody of up to and including appropriate for Ministers to be involved in the ICO’s one year, over one year and up to and including two handling of any particular case. years, and over two years (including life and indeterminate) Discussions between the Information Commissioner for each offence at all courts in England and Wales for and Ministers with regard to Google’s Street View 2009 (latest available) can be found in the following project have related to the general principles of the case. table.

Persons sentenced to immediate custody, sentence bands at all courts by offence, England and Wales, 20091, 2 Over one year and Over two years Total immediate Up to and including up to and including (including life and Offence custody one year two years indeterminate)

Murder 376 — — 376 Attempted Murder 84 — — 84 Threat or Conspiracy to Murder 182 81 50 51 Manslaughter 202 4 17 181 Causing Death by Reckless Driving 218 22 51 145 Manslaughter Due to Diminished Responsibility 4 — — 4 Causing Death by Careless Driving when under 33 3 1 29 the influence of Drink or Drugs Causing Death of a child or vulnerable person 11 3 2 6 Causing Death by careless or inconsiderate 321— driving Causing death by driving unlicensed, disqualified 1 1—— or uninsured drivers Causing Death by Aggravated Vehicle Taking 7 3 — 4 Wounding or other act Endangering Life 1,626 49 131 1,446 Endangering Railway Passenger 4 3 1 — Endangering Life at Sea 1 1 — — Other Wounding etc. 11,155 7,764 2,524 867 Cruelty to or Neglect of Children 158 86 38 34 Abandoning Child aged under Two Years 1 1 — — Child Abduction 16 5 6 5 Procuring Illegal Abortion 2 — — 2 Total Violence Against the Person 14,084 8,028 2,822 3,234 397W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 398W

Persons sentenced to immediate custody, sentence bands at all courts by offence, England and Wales, 20091, 2 Over one year and Over two years Total immediate Up to and including up to and including (including life and Offence custody one year two years indeterminate)

Buggery 24 0 1 23 Sexual Assault on a Male 118 25 34 59 Rape of a Female 885 5 13 867 Rape of a Male 56 0 5 51 Sexual Assault on a Female 935 261 225 449 Sexual Activity with child under 13 86 19 22 45 Sexual Activity with child under 16 472 66 138 268 Familial Sexual Offences (Incest) 77 9 23 45 Exploitation of Prostitution 47 22 17 8 Abduction 1 — 1 — Sexual activity etc. with a person with a mental 15168 disorder Abuse of children through prostitution and 19 3 4 12 pornography Trafficking for sexual exploitation 21 — 2 19 Abuse of trust—sexual offences 19 15 4 — Gross Indecency with Children 43 9 18 16 Miscellaneous sexual offences 169 118 26 25 Total Sexual Offences 2,987 553 539 1,895

Burglary in a Dwelling 6,873 2,636 1,887 2,350 Aggravated Burglary in a Dwelling 246 11 33 202 Burglary in a Building Other than a Dwelling 2,887 2,356 337 194 Aggravated Burglary in a Building not a Dwelling 20 1 2 17 Total Burglary Offences 10,026 5,004 2,259 2,763

Robbery 5,155 1,007 1,313 2,835 Total Robbery Offences 5,155 1,007 1,313 2,835

Aggravated Vehicle Taking 620 472 148 — Money laundering offences 488 222 139 127 Theft from the Person of Another 1,959 1,625 226 108 Theft in Dwelling not Automatic Machine or 332 310 10 12 Meter Theft by an Employee 328 209 93 26 Theft or Unauthorised Taking from Mail 41 34 5 2 Abstracting Electricity 21 21 — — Theft of Pedal Cycle 138 136 1 1 Theft from Vehicle 1,029 996 22 11 Theft from Shops 11,903 11,850 47 6 Theft from Automatic Machine or Meter 110 81 15 14 Theft of Motor Vehicle 236 206 24 6 Other Theft or Unauthorised Taking 1,382 1,284 73 25 Handling Stolen Goods 1,355 1,156 153 46 Total Theft and Handling Stolen Goods 19,942 18,602 956 384

Fraud by Company Director etc. 23 5 8 10 False Accounting 55 26 19 10 Other Fraud 2,700 1,984 448 268 Bankruptcy Offence 24 22 2 — Forgery etc. of Drug Prescription 10 8 1 1 Other Forgery etc. 2,558 2,323 193 42 Fraud, Forgery etc associated with Vehicle or 17 16 1 — Driver Records Total Fraud and Forgery 5,387 4,384 672 331

Arson 549 115 128 306 Criminal Damage Endangering Life 40 12 10 18 Other Criminal Damage 354 330 22 2 Threat etc., to commit Criminal Damage 93 75 9 9 399W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 400W

Persons sentenced to immediate custody, sentence bands at all courts by offence, England and Wales, 20091, 2 Over one year and Over two years Total immediate Up to and including up to and including (including life and Offence custody one year two years indeterminate)

Total Criminal Damage 1,036 532 169 335

Unlawful importation—Class A 528 4 19 505 Unlawful importation—Class B 74 21 22 31 Unlawful importation—Class C 82 18 31 33 Unlawful importation—Class unspecified 25 9 5 11 Unlawful exportation—Class A 25 1 — 24 Unlawful exportation—Class B 4112 Unlawful exportation—Class C 4 2 — 2 Unlawful exportation—Class unspecified 4121 Production, supply and possession with intent to 4,826 368 1,314 3,144 supply a controlled drug—Class A Production, supply and possession with intent to 1,077 381 510 186 supply a controlled drug—Class B Production, supply and possession with intent to 967 434 335 198 supply a controlled drug—Class C Production, supply and possession with intent to 2232543155 supply a controlled drug—Class unspecified Possession of a controlled drug—Class A 775 704 34 37 Possession of a controlled drug—Class B 371 364 3 4 Possession of a controlled drug—Class C 127 121 6 — Possession of a controlled drug—Class 13418 unspecified Inciting another to supply a controlled drug— 2 2—— Class C Other drug offences 298 80 150 68 Total Drug Offences 9,425 2,540 2,476 4,409

Going Equipped for Stealing, etc. 374 354 18 2 Blackmail 132 16 33 83 Kidnapping, etc. 310 39 70 201 Rioting 9 0 — 9 Violent Disorder 268 101 133 34 Other Offence against the State or Public Order 3,064 2,494 509 61 Perjury 40 35 4 1 Betting, Gaming and Lotteries 3 3 — — Aiding Suicide 2 — 2 — Assist Entry of Illegal Immigrant 381 281 66 34 Perverting the Course of Justice 748 623 94 31 Absconding from Lawful Custody 246 236 8 2 Firearms Act Offence 597 181 62 354 Revenue Law Offence 17 4 6 7 Failing to Surrender to Bail 1,722 1,722 — — Trade Descriptions Act and Similar Offences 236 213 16 7 Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 7 7 — — Possession of Obscene Material etc. 479 293 130 56 Protection from Eviction Act 1977. 4 4 — — Adulteration of Food 3 1 2 — Public Health 11 10 1 — Disclosure, obstruction, false or misleading 37 36 1 — statements Other (Excluding Motoring Offences) 2,192 2,023 77 92 Total Other Indictable Offences (Excluding 10,882 8,676 1,232 974 Motoring) Total Indictable Offences (Excluding Motoring) 78,924 49,326 12,438 17,160

Dangerous Driving 1,309 1,089 220 — Driving licence related offences: Making false 2 2—— statements Vehicle insurance offences: Making false 4 4—— statements Total Indictable Motoring Offences 1,315 1,095 220 — 401W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 402W

Persons sentenced to immediate custody, sentence bands at all courts by offence, England and Wales, 20091, 2 Over one year and Over two years Total immediate Up to and including up to and including (including life and Offence custody one year two years indeterminate)

Total Indictable Offences (Including Motoring) 80,239 50,421 12,658 17,160

Assault: On Constable 1,609 1,609 — — Assault: Common, etc 6,787 6,785 2 — Betting or Gaming Offence 32 32 — — Brothel Keeping 13 13 — — Cruelty to Animal 102 102 — — Offences Relating to Dogs 10 10 — — Education Acts 15 15 — — Firearms Acts 17 17 — — Fishery Acts 3 3 — — Offence against Public Order 1,522 1,522 — — Interference with Motor Vehicles 281 281 — — Unauthorised Taking of a Conveyance 639 639 — — Summary Aggravated Vehicle Taking 371 368 3 — Drunkenness, with Aggravation 7 7 — — Summary Criminal or Malicious Damage 1,313 1,313 — — Offence Social Security Offence 36 36 — — Naval, Military and Air Force Law—Navy 1 1 — — Disorderly Behaviour 5 5 — — Other Offence 2 2 — — Prostitution—Kerb Crawling 52 52 — — Public Health Offence 1 1 — — Railway Offence 23 23 — — Sexual Offences—Miscellaneous 1 1 — — Vagrancy Offences—Begging 8 8 — — Vagrancy Offences—Found In Enclosed Premises 52 52 — — Weights and Measures Acts 1 1 — — Wild Birds Protection Acts 1 1 — — Drug Offence 111 111 — — Immigration Offence 33 33 — — Other Summary Offence (Excluding Motoring) 1,639 1,638 1 — Total Summary Offences (Excluding Motoring) 14,687 14,681 6 — Summary Motoring Offences 5,264 5,264 — — Total Summary Offences (Including Motoring) 19,951 19,945 6 — Total All Offences 100,190 70,366 12,664 17,160 1 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics—Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice

Prisoners on Remand for contempt of court and other prisoners classified under Prison Rule 7(3), and those serving a term of imprisonment in default of payment of a sum of money, Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for adjudged to be paid on conviction. Justice how many remand prisoners (a) were in prison on 6 May 2010 and (b) voted in elections on that day. [22735] Prisoners’ Release Mr Blunt: On 7 May 2010, the nearest date for which information is available, there were 12,823 remand prisoners Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for in prisons in England and Wales. Justice how many people were given a supervision order with a condition of participation in a sex offender Eligible prisoners may vote by post or by proxy and programme in 2009. [22934] we are therefore unable to say how many votes were actually cast by or on behalf of eligible prisoners. Mr Blunt: In 2009, 1,451 community-based orders The right to vote is restricted to unconvicted prisoners, were issued with a requirement to participate in a sex convicted but unsentenced prisoners, persons imprisoned offender programme. 403W Written Answers10 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 404W

Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for wing pathfinders in a number of prisons and explore Justice (1) how many people were given a supervision alternative forms of residential, treatment-based order with a curfew requirement in each year from 2004 accommodation for offenders with drugs problems. to 2009; [22935] These plans will be outlined in more detail in our (2) how many people were given a supervision order Green Paper on Sentencing and Rehabilitation, which with a requirement for unpaid work in each year from will be published for consultation shortly. 2004 to 2009. [22936] Prisons: Meat Mr Blunt: The following table shows the number of curfew and unpaid work community order requirements Mr Leech: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if which commenced under probation service supervision he will review levels of meat consumption in prisons for in each year from 2005 to 2009—latest available. the purpose of improving the health of prisoners. [23133] Persons starting curfew and unpaid work requirements of a community order 2005-09 Mr Blunt: There are no plans to review the level of Curfew Unpaid work meat consumption in prisons. Prisons already provide 2005 3,209 29,947 meals to meet religious and cultural needs as well as 2006 9,615 66,937 vegetarian, vegan and other dietary requirements. 2007 12,608 74,779 Prisons: Wales 2008 15,526 74,629 2009 16,479 76,699 Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Notes: 1. Sharp increase from 2005 reflects the fact that these orders were what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary introduced for offences committed after 4 April 2005. of State for Wales on proposals for the construction of 2. For curfews, the data given in the table are the majority of adult a prison in North Wales. [22992] curfew requirements given. The data do not include single requirement curfews which do not involve probation service supervision. Mr Blunt: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Data are available from April 2005 only as the community State for Wales (Mrs Gillan) has discussed the provision order was introduced under the Criminal Justice Act of prison places in north Wales with both myself and 2003 on 4 April 2005—moreover curfew/unpaid work ministerial colleagues. requirements did not explicitly feature in the community The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) is committed to publishing sentences used previously. a Green Paper on Rehabilitation and Sentencing, consulting The figures can be found in the published “Offender on our longer-term plans for offender management. Management Caseload Statistics 2009”—Table 3.9, a Following this the MoJ will re-evaluate its strategy for copy of which can be found in the Libraries of both prison capacity. Houses and which can be found at the following website: Probation http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ prisonandprobation.htm These figures have been drawn from administrative Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording Justice what guidance his Department issues to the system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Probation Service on the recall of prisoners. [22649] and processing. Mr Blunt: The most recent published guidance issued Prisons: Drugs to the Probation Service on the recall of prisoners is contained in Probation Circular 14/2008 and Probation Instruction 4/2009. Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps his Department is taking to improve The link for these circulars are: the delivery of drug treatment services in prisons. http://www.probation.homeoffice.gov.uk/files/pdf/ [22780] PC14%202008.pdf http://www.probation.homeoffice.gov.uk/files/pdf/ Mr Blunt: The Government recognise that treatment PI04%202009.pdf is essential if we are to tackle the social and health costs Youth Custody: Violence caused by drugs. In prisons, a comprehensive framework of drug treatment is in place to address the drug needs Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of offenders, comprising clinical services, psychosocial what discussions he has had with the Youth Justice interventions, case management and through care services. Boards on matters arising from the recent violent The Integrated Drug Treatment System (IDTS) is bringing incidents at HM Prison and Youth Offender Institute, improvements to the quality of prison treatment and is Warren Hill and HM Prison and Youth Offender due to be rolled out to all adult prisons in England by Institute, Hatfield; and if he will make a statement. March 2011. [22852] However, we believe more needs to be done to offer offenders the opportunity to get off drugs for good and Mr Blunt: I was kept informed of events at HMYOI into a position where they can stop offending and make Warren Hill through the National Offender Management a proper contribution to society. To achieve this we will Service. The Youth Justice Board are working closely run pilots to pay contractors by results to rehabilitate with NOMS to manage the situation at Warren Hill and offenders with drug problems, launch drugs recovery the impact on the wider youth estate.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 10 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 269 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Barnett Formula Funding...... 272 Presbyterian Mutual Society ...... 277 Comprehensive Spending Review...... 273 Security Situation...... 274 Dissident Violence ...... 277 The Disappeared...... 270 Exports ...... 269 Fisheries (EU Legislation) ...... 278 Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies PRIME MINISTER ...... 278 Bill ...... 276 Engagements...... 278 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 10 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 15WS JUSTICE...... 18WS Localism Bill and Planning ...... 15WS Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)...... 18WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 19WS Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe DEFENCE...... 15WS and Assembly of Western European Union Call-Out Order to Support Operations in (UK Delegation)...... 19WS Afghanistan ...... 15WS Parliamentary Assembly of the OSCE (UK Delegation) ...... 20WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 16WS TREASURY ...... 15WS Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 Economic and Financial Affairs Council (Ratification of Treaties)...... 16WS (11 November 2010)...... 15WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 10 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION TRANSPORT ...... 2P Elizabeth Regina Love Correspondence ...... 1P Intercity Express Programme ...... 2P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 10 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 374W CABINET OFFICE—continued Apprentices...... 374W Public Expenditure...... 341W CJD: Research ...... 375W Voluntary Organisations: Local Government...... 342W EU Grants and Loans...... 377W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 378W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 352W Higher Education: Student Numbers...... 385W Anti-Semitism...... 352W Innovation ...... 386W Departmental Early Retirement ...... 352W National Apprenticeship Service...... 386W European Aeronautic Defence and Space National Scholarship Fund...... 387W Company: Contracts...... 352W Regional Growth Fund ...... 387W Fire Services: Emergency Calls...... 353W Science: Finance...... 387W Fire Services: Redundancy ...... 354W Skills Funding Agency: Manpower...... 388W Local Development Frameworks: Greater Students: Fees and Charges...... 388W London...... 355W Public Expenditure...... 355W CABINET OFFICE...... 338W Regeneration: Newcastle upon Tyne ...... 355W Civil Servants: Recruitment ...... 338W Social Rented Housing...... 355W Departmental Redundancy ...... 339W Social Rented Housing: Eltham ...... 357W Government Departments: Photography ...... 340W UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Government Departments: Procurement ...... 340W Disabilities ...... 357W Members: Correspondence ...... 341W Public Bodies Bill...... 341W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 316W Public Bodies (Reform) Bill 2010-2011: Wales...... 341W BBC: Commonwealth Games 2014...... 316W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Departmental Travel ...... 316W continued Horse Racing: Betting...... 316W Mordechai Vanunu ...... 327W Local Broadcasting: Television ...... 317W Taiwan: International Civil Aviation Organisation. 328W National Lottery: Armed Forces...... 317W HEALTH...... 366W DEFENCE...... 388W Blood: Contamination ...... 366W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 388W CJD: Drugs...... 367W Afghanistan: Security Forces ...... 389W Departmental Redundancy ...... 368W Air Force: Military Bases ...... 389W Doctors: Career Development ...... 369W Aircraft Carriers: Military Aircraft ...... 390W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 369W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 391W Health Services: Greater Manchester ...... 369W Armed Forces: Private Education ...... 391W Khat...... 370W Falkland Islands: Deployment ...... 391W Kidney Dialysis...... 370W France: Military Alliances...... 391W Mental Health Services: Prisons...... 370W HMS Astute...... 392W Neuromuscular Diseases: Health Services...... 371W Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Fighters ...... 392W NHS: Redundancy...... 372W Military Aircraft: Helicopters ...... 392W NHS: Voluntary Organisations ...... 372W Nimrod MR4A ...... 392W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 373W Peacekeeping Operations: Middle East ...... 392W Social Services: West Sussex...... 373W Shipbuilding...... 393W Strategic Defence and Security Review ...... 393W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 360W Antisocial Behaviour: Crime Prevention ...... 361W EDUCATION...... 319W Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Northumberland ..... 360W Children in Care...... 319W Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Peterborough...... 360W Children In Care ...... 320W Crime: Summertime...... 361W Departmental Reviews ...... 320W Entry Clearances: Taiwan ...... 361W Education: Young People...... 322W Illegal Immigrants: East Ayrshire...... 362W Foster Care: Per Capita Costs ...... 322W Immigration Controls: English Language ...... 362W GCSE ...... 323W Intercept Modernisation Programme ...... 362W Home Education...... 323W Khat...... 363W Private Education: Tax Relief...... 323W Proceeds of Crime...... 363W Pupil Exclusions...... 324W Strategic Defence and Security Review ...... 364W Schools: Violence ...... 324W UK Border Agency: Passports ...... 364W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 325W Vetting: Complaints ...... 365W Vetting: Standards...... 365W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 328W Electricity Generation...... 328W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 318W Housing: Insulation ...... 329W Developing Countries: Education ...... 318W Wind Power: Cost-effectiveness...... 330W Developing Countries: Tuberculosis...... 318W Institute for Fiscal Studies ...... 319W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 307W JUSTICE...... 394W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 307W Alternatives to Prison...... 394W Arpley Landfill Site...... 308W Criminal Injuries Compensation ...... 394W Bottles: Recycling...... 308W Data Protection: Internet ...... 394W Cotton: EU Action ...... 309W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 394W Dairy Farming ...... 309W Fines: Surcharges ...... 395W English Forestry Forum ...... 309W Google ...... 395W Environment Protection: British Overseas John Hirst ...... 396W Territories ...... 309W Prison Sentences ...... 396W Forestry Commission...... 310W Prisoners on Remand...... 401W Forestry Commission: Land...... 310W Prisoners’ Release...... 402W Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Electronic Prisons: Drugs ...... 403W Equipment ...... 311W Prisons: Meat...... 404W Landfill: Refrigerators...... 312W Prisons: Wales...... 404W National Parks: Areas of Outstanding Natural Probation ...... 404W Beauty...... 312W Youth Custody: Violence...... 404W Nitrogen Dioxide: Pollution Control...... 313W Pollution: Liquefied Petroleum Gas ...... 313W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 315W Recycling ...... 314W Community Policing ...... 315W Rodents: Henderson Island...... 314W Dealing with the Past ...... 315W Water Supply: Leaks ...... 314W Police Service of Northern Ireland...... 315W Public Sector Employment...... 315W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 325W Chinese: Falun Gong ...... 325W TRANSPORT ...... 331W Diplomatic Service...... 325W Airports: Thames Estuary...... 331W European Parliament ...... 326W Blue Badge Scheme...... 331W Gibraltar: Spain ...... 326W Crossrail: Abbey Wood...... 331W Iran: Baha’i Faith...... 326W Crossrail: Finance ...... 332W Middle East: Peace Negotiations...... 327W Ferries: Highlands and Islands...... 332W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 307W Highways Agency: Finance...... 333W Sexual Harassment...... 307W Railways: Electrification ...... 333W Railways: Fares ...... 334W Railways: North West ...... 335W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 342W Road Traffic: Morecambe ...... 336W Access to Work Programme ...... 342W Roads: Safety ...... 336W Bereavement Benefits ...... 342W Transport: Finance...... 337W Child Maintenance and Enforcement Transport for London: Grants ...... 337W Commission: Correspondence ...... 343W TREASURY ...... 358W Disability Living Allowance...... 343W Child Benefit...... 358W Employment: Disability ...... 344W Child Benefit: Durham ...... 358W Housing Benefit ...... 344W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 358W Housing Benefit: Brighton and Lewes...... 346W Directors: Fraud ...... 358W Housing Benefit: Down’s Syndrome ...... 346W National Insurance Contributions: New Housing Benefit: Shared Housing...... 346W Businesses ...... 359W Housing Benefit: Wales...... 346W Official Cars: Expenditure...... 359W Industrial Health and Safety...... 346W Public Expenditure...... 359W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 347W Public Expenditure: Scotland...... 359W Pensioners: Housing Benefit ...... 349W Public Sector: Females ...... 360W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 349W Tax Allowances: Breweries...... 360W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 350W Statutory Sick Pay...... 351W WALES...... 307W Unemployment ...... 351W Institute of Fiscal Studies ...... 307W Work Programme...... 351W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 10 November 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 269] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Support and Protection for Elderly People and Adults at Risk of Abuse [Col. 290] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Mr Dodds)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Equitable Life (Payments) Bill [Col. 293] Considered in Committee; read the Third time and passed

European Union Economic Governance [Col. 359] Motion to take note of EC document—(Mr Hoban)—on a Division, agreed to

Petition [Col. 388]

BBC Funding (CSR) [Col. 389] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall UK Software Industry [Col. 75WH] Local Enterprise Partnerships (South-West) [Col. 99WH] Science Research [Col. 108WH] Exeter to Plymouth Railway [Col. 135WH] Housing Revenue Account Subsidy (Wales) [Col. 140WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 15WS]

Petitions [Col. 1P] Petition presented to the House on Tuesday 9 November but not read on the Floor Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 307W] [see index inside back page]