Thursday Volume 506 25 February 2010 No. 45

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 25 February 2010

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Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Does House of Commons my hon. Friend accept that a large element of fuel poverty relates to the energy efficiency of the homes in Thursday 25 February 2010 which fuel-poor people live? Does he also accept that efforts to ensure that those homes are made properly energy efficient are a vital part of our attack on fuel The House met at half-past Ten o’clock poverty? What is his assessment of the likely impact of community energy response teams, community energy saving programmes, and other schemes, such as the PRAYERS Great British Refurb, on improving the energy efficiency of homes? [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr. Kidney: I agree that the most sustainable way of BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS helping people to stay out of fuel poverty is to ensure that their homes are energy efficient. That is why we have concentrated so much on the energy companies’ LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] obligation, under which more than 6 million homes (BY ORDER) have been insulated. Another 2 million have been insulated Second Reading opposed and deferred until Thursday under Warm Front. The community energy saving 4 March (Standing Order No. 20). programmes scheme is also important in guiding us towards choosing the best policy for sustainable energy programmes, which we intend to reveal shortly in our Oral Answers to Questions latest strategy. Mr. Amess: As the promoter of the Bill that became ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000, I am naturally disappointed that the targets that were set will not be reached this year. The Department is undertaking The Secretary of State was asked— a review, so will the Minister tell the House when the results will be announced? What instructions will be Fuel Poverty given to officials to ensure that the strategy is put back on track? 1. Mr. Douglas Carswell (Harwich) (Con): What recent estimate he has made of the level of fuel poverty in the UK. [318540] Mr. Kidney: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, who has a long and distinguished record of campaigning on 5. Mr. David Amess (Southend, West) (Con): What these issues in the House and outside it. He is right to recent estimate he has made of the level of fuel poverty say that we are undertaking a review of our present in the UK. [318544] policies to see whether they can be made more effective, or whether we need new ones. I am giving evidence to 6. Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): What recent the Select Committee in March, and I hope to be able to estimate he has made of the level of fuel poverty in the talk about the emerging findings of the review at that UK. [318545] time. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): The estimated Mr. Baron: In order to fight fuel poverty, Ofgem is number of households in fuel poverty in the UK was now going to force energy supply companies to print on around 4 million in 2007, the latest year for which customers’ bills details of how their tariff compares figures are available. with the company’s standard direct debit tariff. Why will that information be given out only on an annual Mr. Carswell: Three and a quarter million of those statement? That will discriminate against active switchers 4 million households in fuel poverty are designated as who might not get such a statement because they have being vulnerable households. How are the Government not been with a company for 12 months. going to meet their 2010 target for eradicating fuel poverty in such households, if that is still possible? Mr. Kidney: Again, I think that praise is called for. Mr. Kidney: We have to recognise the additional The hon. Gentleman knows that I wrote to him to challenge that has been set by rising energy prices over praise his campaigning on the issue of supplying the past few years, but we still intend to work as hard as information to customers, and I am happy to take this possible for those vulnerable households, giving help opportunity publicly to do so again. The annual reports through the obligation on suppliers to insulate homes start this year, so it is perhaps a little early for us to say and through Warm Front, through which we directly that it is not a good enough scheme. Every energy bill fund home insulation. We are also giving help through will contain information about consumption and costs people’s incomes by means of measures such as the to customers, and I am working with Consumer Focus, winter fuel and cold weather payments, and through the the watchdog and champion of all consumers, on improving control of prices, including the present voluntary agreement, the quality of such information so that we will be able which we are seeking to turn into a mandatory social to give better information to members of the public price support scheme through the Energy Bill. every day of the year. 429 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 430

Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East) (Lab): Does my Mr. Kidney: No. The investigation by the Competition hon. Friend agree that there are three components of Commission of the domestic oil companies took five fuel poverty: dwelling energy efficiency, fuel prices, and years from complaint until remedies. In fact, Ofgem household income? Should not Opposition Members conducted a probe, completed its conclusions and issued recognise that, although things are harder because of the new licence conditions, which are now all in force, in fuel prices, a lot more people would be living in fuel less than two years. I completely reject the hon. Gentleman’s poverty if it were not for the increases in child benefit, suggestion. the working tax credit and the winter fuel allowance? Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): Mr. Kidney: My right hon. Friend is right about those My hon. Friend will be aware of the profit results three issues, and this Government have been determined, announced by British Gas today. Does he agree that even during the worst global recession of my lifetime, to now is the time for energy companies such as British maintain spending on measures such as the winter fuel Gas to cut their prices to consumers? payment and child tax credits. Such payments have helped vulnerable consumers to pay their bills. Mr. Kidney: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. We have just come through one of the most severe Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): Given winters for decades, with customers struggling to pay that, when we talk about fuel poverty, we are actually their high energy bills. Any help that energy companies talking about poverty itself, what specific measures are can give to those customers at this difficult time is being targeted at people who live in council houses? welcome. As we can see from energy companies’ profit results, they can afford that help, so others should Mr. Kidney: My hon. Friend is right to say that follow the lead that British Gas gave earlier this month general poverty is an important issue for the Government and cut their prices now. to address, which is why we have worked so hard to eradicate pensioner poverty. Now we are even legislating Gas Storage to eradicate child poverty in this country. We pay attention to helping council house tenants, through the payment 2. Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): How much of their rent and council tax through the benefits that additional gas storage capacity he expects to become we offer them. available in the UK by 2012. [318541]

Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (LD): It is nearly 13 years since the beginning of this (Edward Miliband): National Grid’s recent “Ten Year Labour Government, and is it not a sign of the priority Statement 2009” expects just over 0.5 billion cubic that they have given to dealing with the massive fuel metres of additional gas storage capacity to be bills that customers regularly receive—we still have no commissioned by 2011-12, or an addition of more than strategy to make every home a warm home—that within 10 per cent. to capacity, including Aldbrough, which three months of the end of this Parliament there is still will be the second largest facility in the country. In no coherent Labour policy on the issue? addition, 20 other projects are planned for completion beyond that date, including the Gateway project, which Mr. Kidney: Now come on. We have arranged, through will provide 1.5 billion cubic metres of extra capacity by the energy supply companies’ obligation, for insulation 2014. That storage capacity is on top of the increase in to more than 6 million homes. Through Warm Front, import capacity in recent years, representing 125 per we have directly funded insulation for an additional cent. of annual demand. 2 million homes. We have a policy that every home with a cavity wall or loft that is uninsulated will be insulated Mr. Mackay: But in layman’s language, does that not by 2015. Having dealt with those so-called easy wins, we mean that there will be just two days of additional gas recognise that the next issue for us to tackle is hard-to-treat storage available by the end of 2012? At a time when we properties, such as those requiring solid wall insulation. are hugely dependent on imports, is the Secretary of Our strategy, which we will unveil shortly, will show State satisfied that that is sufficient? how we will address those matters too. Edward Miliband: I do not know whether the right Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): I thank the Minister hon. Gentleman was present for the energy security for his kind words to my hon. Friends the Members for debate in the House some weeks ago, but the hon. Southend, West (Mr. Amess) and for Billericay (Mr. Baron) Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) discovered for their campaigning on fuel poverty issues. Has he in that debate and through asking other questions that seen the recent report by Ofgem showing that the number simply quoting storage numbers when we have the of customers falling into debt on their electricity bills North sea, import capacity and liquefied natural gas has increased by 105 per cent. on the previous year, and facilities tells only a small part of the story. Indeed, the by a shocking 147 per cent. in the case of gas customers, National Grid dismissed his statistics as a “meaningless and that those figures are getting worse? Does he recall number”. We do need more storage capacity, but the the Secretary of State brushing aside our calls in 2008 most important thing is changing the planning system. for a Competition Commission investigation into energy We are doing that through the Infrastructure Planning prices, saying that it would cause two years of uncertainty? Commission, which will now be responsible for onshore Does he accept that such an investigation would have wind. The suggestions of the right hon. Member for been completed by now, and we could have had real Bracknell (Mr. Mackay) would best be directed at those evidence about the level of electricity and gas prices on his Front Bench, who oppose our reforms in relation rather than the understandable suspicion and anxiety? to the Infrastructure Planning Commission. 431 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 432

Nick Ainger (Carmarthen, West and South Greenhouse Gases (India and China) Pembrokeshire) (Lab): The Secretary of State will be well aware of the major contribution, certainly over the 4. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What past few months, of the two LNG import terminals in recent discussions he has had with the Indian and Pembrokeshire and the Isle Of Grain in Kent. Up to Chinese Governments on their policies to reduce greenhouse 27 per cent. of annual consumption is provided through gas emissions. [318543] those terminals. Bearing in mind the future reduction of North sea capacity, and the possible risks of the continental The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth connection, will the Secretary of State talk to the Crown Affairs (David Miliband): I had many discussions with Estate, with which the UK gas storage association is Indian and Chinese representatives at the Copenhagen having major difficulties in reaching agreement about negotiations which led to the Copenhagen accord, in offshore storage? which both China and India set targets in time for the 31 January deadline. Since Copenhagen I have also Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend has made two discussed climate issues with the Chinese ambassador important points. The first was about LNG facilities. I to the United Kingdom—until she recently became can tell him that the LNG facility at Milford Haven, China’s Vice Foreign Minister—and various issues, which was not in operation last year, currently meets including those relating to climate and energy, with about 10 per cent. of total UK gas demand. That is one Anand Sharma, the Indian Minister for Commerce and of the ways we are meeting our gas needs as the supply Industry. from the North sea declines. As for my hon. Friend’s second point, although the Crown Estate is independent Mr. Bone: Many people in this country do their bit to from Government, we continue to think about the cut carbon dioxide emissions—I, for instance, drive a issues involved. The recent licensing of the Gateway biofuel car—but that will pale into insignificance unless project suggests that they can be dealt with. we can persuade the Indian and Chinese Governments Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): The right hon. to do more. Why does the Secretary of State think so Gentleman agrees that we need more gas storage. Can little progress has been made? he tell us how many days’ supply we have at this Edward Miliband: I think more progress has been moment? made than would seem apparent from the disappointment Edward Miliband: There are different estimates. It of the Copenhagen negotiations. The Copenhagen accord depends whether we take account of the North sea, covers about 80 per cent. of global emissions. This is the LNG facilities, and the fact that medium-range storage first time that we have secured an agreement that covers can be refilled. such a wide range of emissions across the world. We The hon. Gentleman tried this in January, when we need to turn it into a legally binding document, which experienced very cold weather. It was not me but National is, in a sense, the biggest challenge that we face. The Grid that said he was producing a “meaningless number”. reason the task is so difficult is that these are very big I can tell him that alarmism about energy security does issues about the future of different economies across him, and political debate, no good at all. the world. Greg Clark: I should have thought that the Secretary Mr. Ian Cawsey (Brigg and Goole) (Lab): My right of State would inform himself of the day-to-day storage hon. Friend will be aware that not far from his constituency, levels. For 18 months the Business, Innovation and in Brigg and Goole and other constituencies on the Skills Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member south Humber bank, are companies such as Corus, for Mid-Worcestershire (Peter Luff), has been warning Singleton Birch and, in Goole, Guardian Glass, which that we need more gas in storage. Let me give the are being expected—rightly—to reduce emissions as Minister the answer that he was unable to give me. As of part of the Government’s overall strategy, but are competing last night, we have three days’ worth of gas in storage. against companies that are setting themselves up and That is the lowest level for many years, despite the fact building new plants in countries with fast-growing that as imports increase we need a greater security economies, such as India and China. They feel that is margin. Other countries have more storage, Ofgem says unfair and that there is no level playing field, because we need more storage, and the Select Committee says they are having to take action that the companies in we need more storage. Does the Secretary of State agree those other countries are not. When will my right hon. that it is time the Government had a policy on what our Friend be able to make more progress, so that we can security margin should be? report to workers in this country that they are not being Edward Miliband: The strange thing about the hon. unfairly discriminated against? Gentleman is that, although he talks a lot about gas storage, he has not one single policy in favour of having Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend has made an more of it. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman asks important point. It is because of that situation that me, from a sedentary position, what my policy is. The there are provisions in the EU emissions trading scheme single most important policy that we are pursuing relates to protect against so-called carbon leakage. We give out to the Infrastructure Planning Commission, which will allowances free to the most exposed sectors, rather than deal with one of the biggest gas storage issues that we auctioning them. The European Commission is currently face by reforming planning. What is the hon. Gentleman’s examining the different criteria, and will make further policy on the Infrastructure Planning Commission? His announcements later this year. policy is to abolish it, and that says all we need to know. The other point I would make is that there is also a Once again, the Conservative party’s policy has not first-mover advantage for us in getting ahead in this been thought through, and they are not ready for low-carbon technology, and it is important that we do government. that as well. 433 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 434

Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): As you know, Andrew Selous: Why have the Government done so Mr. Speaker, the shadow Minister with responsibility little to prepare for the hon. Gentleman’s Department’s for climate change, my hon. Friend the Member for forecasts that up to 16 million households could be Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), cannot be here sitting in the dark by 2017, and is the fact that only today as he is in Beijing meeting Chinese Ministers three Labour MPs have questions on the Order Paper responsible for those issues. today indicative of his party’s lack of concern about We admired the Secretary of State’s work in advance this issue? of Copenhagen—I think he knows that—but in the aftermath of Copenhagen, perhaps for reasons of Mr. Kidney: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman understandable frustration, he accused China of trying takes such a low view of policies that are delivering on to hijack the summit and of holding other countries to investment, price and supply in this country. If he wants ransom. On reflection, does he regret that approach, solid evidence of that, he need only look back one and does he believe that as no global deal is possible month to one of the severest winters in decades, when without China, he should take steps to understand why the system in this country coped extremely well. China felt a global deal was not in its interests, with a view to persuasion rather than condemnation? Also, Mr. Brian Jenkins (Tamworth) (Lab): My hon. Friend does he have a positive— will recognise that Ofgem faces difficult problems. We, as the former owners of the generating facilities and Mr. Speaker: Order. I have said on innumerable occasions energy companies, have suffered badly in that we were that questions from the Front Bench are all too often ripped off. We did not realise that the payment was only simply too long. The hon. Gentleman has put a question, a down payment, and we have been ripped off every and I know he will look forward to hearing the reply. year by these companies ever since. When will my hon. Friend ask our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State Edward Miliband: I do not regret being open and for Health to provide a set of NHS gnashers to give to honest with people about why the Copenhagen negotiations the toothless watchdog we have got—the regulator? did not achieve all that we had hoped, because I think that is a very important duty in politics. We went to the Mr. Kidney: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his Copenhagen negotiations to try to secure a legal treaty robust expression of a dissatisfaction that is felt throughout and global targets, and it is right to explain to people the House with the performance of the regulator since why those ambitions were not achieved. It is also right privatisation of the energy sector. However, I can assure to say, as I made clear in my discussions with the him that in the Energy Bill that this House voted in Chinese ambassador, that the task now is to move on favour of last night there are measures to strengthen the and work with China, India and others to try to resolve powers of Ofgem. the remaining differences. Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): As the Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras) (Lab): Does Minister will be aware, it is estimated that about £200 billion my right hon. Friend agree that, in our discussions with will need to be invested in energy production in the next the Chinese, we would be in a better position when decade if the lights are not going to go off. In the light talking about emissions from coal-fired power stations of that figure, does he think that the £800 million-plus if the previous Tory Government had not been so profit that British Gas announced today should be used short-sighted and closed down the clean coal technology for further investment or cutting bills? research project and research into improving the thermal efficiency of coal-fired power stations? [Interruption.] Mr. Kidney: The hon. Lady invites me to answer one Edward Miliband: My right hon. Friend is absolutely of the key questions. We want energy companies to right, and it is very clear from Conservative Members’ invest £200 billion in infrastructure projects in this responses to that question that they do not like to be country over the next decade, so we should celebrate the reminded of their past, and it is no wonder—although I fact that they are successful global companies that do know that the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg make profits. However, when those profits are excessive Clark) was in a different party in the period referred to. and members of the public are struggling to pay high energy bills after four successive years of very big My right hon. Friend is right. I think there is an increases, we are entitled to say that as world prices fall important future for clean coal in this country. That is the customers should share in that benefit. why it is important that the Energy Bill makes the carbon capture and storage levy available to support that. Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) (LD): Given that the big energy companies have made Project Discovery the highest ever profits over the past five years and that only today British Gas announced a profit of nearly 7. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): £600 million, which is an increase of more than 50 per What steps he plans to take in response to Ofgem’s cent., why should anybody support a party that, as the Project Discovery report. [318546] hon. Member for Tamworth (Mr. Jenkins) indicated a moment ago, has so abysmally failed to take on the big The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy energy companies, stand up for consumers and give us a and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): Ofgem’s regulator that does anything useful to justify its existence? consultation is one of a number of resources that my Department is taking into account in its ongoing work Mr. Kidney: The hon. Gentleman clearly did not on maintaining secure and affordable energy supplies listen to the previous question and answer, nor the one during the transition to a low-carbon economy. before that. It is important that we have successful 435 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 436 energy companies but, equally, because of the monopolistic carbon capture and storage from day one and that elements of their industry, it is important to have a coal-fired power stations with demonstration projects strong regulator. As I have just said, we are legislating in will retrofit CCS to their full capacity by 2025. the Energy Bill to make that regulator stronger. Tom Brake: The energy industry needs a stronger Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): Last July, the signal now that the Government are serious about Secretary of State told the House that getting carbon out of energy; otherwise it will not make “gas imports…will be kept to 2010 levels for the whole of the the necessary investments. The emissions trading scheme following decade”.—[Official Report, 15 July 2009; Vol. 496, is not working, and last night the Government blocked c. 293-94.] the introduction of an emissions performance standard. Yet both Ofgem and the National Grid Company say Why will they not take on the power giants, introduce that gas imports will rise substantially during the next legal limits on power stations and force them to cut eight years and that 70 per cent. of our gas will be their carbon emissions drastically? imported. Who is right? Joan Ruddock: I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that Mr. Kidney: The Government stand by the UK low we have the most radical and most environmentally carbon transition plan, which we published last year demanding coal policy in the world, and we have the and which contains our favoured scenario for what will greatest incentive to industry to invest with the CCS happen by 2020. The hon. Gentleman asks who is right levy. Frankly, not a single company and not a single and who is wrong. There are a range of views on this independent adviser such as the Committee on Climate and we are taking them all into account as we develop Change would support him in saying that introducing our energy market assessment, the first findings of an emissions performance standard at this point would which will be announced alongside this year’s Budget. be appropriate.

Greg Clark: The Minister has just confirmed that the Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): Why have the Government take a different view from the regulator. Government rejected the findings in the report they When it was disclosed that his Department expected commissioned from Oxera, which recommended raising power cuts in 2017, the Secretary of State dumped the the cap on the amount of biomass that coal-fired power data and changed the figures. Yet this month Ofgem, stations such as Drax can blend with coal from 12.5 to the regulator, has said: 17.5 per cent.? “In 2017 we get to the really sweaty-palm moment in terms of possible shortages”. Joan Ruddock: I thank my hon. Friend for that It talked of the “profound” and “worrying” state of important question. We are looking at the whole field and at the use of biomass. This is not a technology in “collapse in energy supply from 2013”. which we can have total confidence at the moment. Ofgem has rubbished the Secretary of State’s complacent There are issues of sustainability in the production of assumptions on gas and electricity and has called for a the biomass, if it involves new crops, and the burning of different policy on security. Why has the energy regulator biomass brings up air pollution issues, too. We have to lost confidence in this Secretary of State? take some time over this. We are in discussions with people at Drax and we will be considering the issues Mr. Kidney: I just mentioned the low carbon transition that they raise about investment, incentives and the cap. plan, which suggests a major investment in the trinity of clean coal, nuclear and renewables. It is unfortunate National Grid (East Anglia) that in every one of those areas the hon. Gentleman’s party is obstructive—I am thinking of the approach it 9. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): has taken on the planning system for nuclear power When he next expects to meet representatives of local with the Infrastructure Planning Commission, on the authorities in East Anglia to discuss the operation of proposed levy, and on the introduction yesterday of the the national grid. [318548] proposal by some Opposition Members of an emissions performance standard. On renewables, he does not have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy to look far behind him to see the Members who do not and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): The Secretary agree with developing wind power in this country. of State has no plans to meet the representatives of local authorities in East Anglia to discuss the operation Coal-fired Power Stations of the national grid.

8. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Mr. Bellingham: Is the Minister aware that Centrica is What plans he has to limit the level of carbon dioxide going to double the size of the King’s Lynn gas-fired emissions from coal-fired power stations after 2020. power station, which will mean that it will need the [318547] national grid to connect the new power to its main power lines with new pylons, which will be extremely The Minister of State, Department of Energy and unsightly. What is his policy for burying such new Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): The Government’s “A pylons underground? framework for the development of clean coal”, which was published in November, delivers a comprehensive Mr. Kidney: I think I am right to point out to the hon. package of policy measures that will drive the transition Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) that this is to clean coal to 2020 and beyond. Our ambition is that one of the hon. Members who is against developing any new coal plant constructed from 2020 will be fully wind power in this country. We need £200 billion of 437 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 438 investment in our energy infrastructure over the next Tony Baldry: I thank the Minister of State for that decade, some of which will be for the cables that deliver answer. May I press her on what powers and resources the power from the place of generation to the place of the Government intend to give to local authorities to consumption. On the whole, overhead power cables enable them to promote green technology and sustainable have been the most robust and cost-effective way of development and to meet their carbon reduction delivering that energy in the past. commitments?

Microgeneration Joan Ruddock: I shall begin with the carbon reduction commitment, which is, of course, a national scheme 10. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What recent estimate being introduced this April. Within that, local authorities he has made of the likely proportion of the UK’s will have a duty to look to their energy efficiency, and electricity supply to be generated by microgeneration their resulting emissions will have to be measured. They technologies in 2020. [318549] will have the opportunity, in the first year, simply to record that information. We will, of course, assist in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy that. In order to reduce their emissions and increase and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): We estimate their energy efficiency, they get assistance from the that approximately 2 per cent. of the UK’s electricity Carbon Trust and Salix finance loans are available. We supply will be generated by small-scale technologies have a very good record of working with local government. in 2020. The indicators are there through the local government performance framework, and local authorities have John Howell: Among EU countries, the UK lies sufficient powers to make the necessary changes. Of behind everyone except Luxembourg and Malta in course, they will make a vital contribution. renewable energy use. What lessons does the Minister think he can learn from more successful EU member states? Mr. Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich, West) (Lab/Co-op): An appropriate planning regulatory regime is essential Mr. Kidney: Clearly not to follow the example of for local authorities to develop local emissions reduction Conservative Members in opposing renewable energy projects in their areas. What assessment has been made developments, but rather to follow successful Labour of potential changes to planning regulations that impede policies, such as the one that makes us the lead in the such developments? world in offshore wind. The hon. Gentleman’s question was about microgeneration, so perhaps we can return to Joan Ruddock: Some concerns have been expressed the subject of feed-in tariffs, which a Labour Government by local authorities, and, indeed, by individual households are introducing from this April and which will encourage and businesses, about the ability to introduce new these developments. technologies in a way that is consistent with local needs and local views. We have given local authorities the Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does right to determine their own planning policies to an my hon. Friend know that Carbon Connect’s progress extent, as well as, more recently, to agree permitted report on low-carbon technologies, on the commercial development so that we can make some progress with barriers and on how we overcome them will be launched small-scale microgeneration. somewhere around Westminster this lunch time? Mr. Kidney: I certainly hope that I am aware of that Prepayment Meters important event as I am due to speak at it. Carbon Emission Reduction (Local Government) 12. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): What recent progress he has made on phasing out 11. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What recent domestic energy prepayment meters. [318551] assessment he has made of the contribution of local government to meeting the UK’s carbon emission The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy reduction targets. [318550] and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): Prepayment meters play an important role in helping some customers The Minister of State, Department of Energy and to control their energy expenditure and should remain Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): Local authorities have an option for consumers. Smart meters will in due a key leadership role in reducing their emissions and course replace current prepayment meters and we are those occurring within their areas. The Government committed to rolling out smart meters to all households. have announced a pilot of local carbon frameworks, Meanwhile, the replacement of the older-style token which aim to increase the contribution of local authorities prepayment meters was due to be nearly completed by to meeting the UK’s carbon emissions reduction targets. the end of 2009. I await an update on the present

Estimates of per capita CO2 emissions for 2007, and position from Ofgem. revised estimates for 2005 and 2006, for all UK local authorities and Government office regions were published Sir Nicholas Winterton: There is a lot of concern on the DECC website on 17 September and were updated about energy prepayment meters because they are used on 9 November. mainly by those on lower incomes. Is it right that such DECC also collects statistics on the CO2 emissions of people should pay more for their gas than those who are local authorities’ own estate and operations. The better off? When will prepayment meters be entirely Department is analysing returns for the year ending phased out? Phasing them out would be a good thing, 31 March 2009 and will publish the figures soon. and that idea is warmly supported by Labour Members. 439 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 440

Mr. Kidney: For the reasons that I have given, I do Mr. Dunne: I am grateful to the Minister for that not, regretfully, agree with the hon. Gentleman about answer. I am not surprised, and I am encouraged to the presence and use of prepayment meters, but they hear about the take-up, but is she aware that, when will all be gone when we have smart meters by the end of condensing boilers are retrofitted, the water run-off 2020. In the mean time, one of the Ofgem licence pipe is often fitted on the outside of a building? When conditions that I mentioned earlier was to rule out any those pipes freeze, as is happening in the current freezing unfair discrimination against users of prepayment meters. conditions, the boilers break, with the result that households As a result, the differential between prepayment meter have no heat or hot water. What are the Government and standard credit rates has effectively been eliminated. doing to stop that happening?

Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): Does my hon. Joan Ruddock: From what the hon. Gentleman has Friend agree that, while we wait for smart meters, it is said, perhaps Ministers ought to be taking a course in right that the Government should intervene to prevent plumbing, although I must tell him that I have no plans the most vulnerable people from being ripped off for to do so. I have a condensing boiler myself, and my having to use prepayment meters? external run-off pipe has not frozen, but he may be correct about this being something that we need to look Mr. Kidney: Yes; we called on Ofgem to carry out that into. However, I hope that he will not want to detract in probe, we supported the licence conditions that it proposed any way from the great success of the boiler scrappage and I am pleased that they have been implemented. scheme and the huge savings in CO2 emissions—and Gas Storage therefore the good effects on climate change—that it is achieving. 14. Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): How much Climate Change Research additional gas storage capacity he expects to become available in the UK by 2012. [318553] 16. Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change What recent research he has (a) commissioned and (b) (Edward Miliband): I refer the hon. Gentleman to the evaluated into the scientific case for man-made climate reply that I gave to the right hon. Member for Bracknell change; and if he will make a statement. [318555] (Mr. Mackay) some moments ago. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Mr. Jones: I am obliged to the Secretary of State, but Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): Last year, DECC and may I refer him to the answer that he gave to the hon. the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Member for Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire launched the AVOID research programme on avoiding (Nick Ainger) regarding developments under the sea dangerous climate change which assessed the scientific bed? Clearly, the Crown Estate holds the key to future research published since the Intergovernmental Panel developments under the sea bed, but the gas storage on Climate Change’s fourth assessment report. The operators group accuses it of behaving it as a monopoly. findings informed the UK delegation ahead of Copenhagen. What influence can the Secretary of State bring to bear The integrated climate programme at the Met Office on the Crown Estate to ensure that it behaves in a Hadley centre is also providing new climate science commercial manner? research and expert advice on the findings of that research. Edward Miliband: It is fair to say that negotiations between the Crown Estate and gas storage operators are Lynne Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. commercial negotiations, but we engage with that and In this country, there has been a broad consensus that we are in discussions with the Crown Estate. They make the risk of dangerous climate change is real. It is based their own decisions about tariffs and fees, but we are on broad and deep scientific evidence, with acknowledged due to talk to them about that. We can also help by uncertainties, that we cannot go on pumping billions of making tax changes. For example, the tax change that tonnes of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere without we made in relation to cushion gas has helped to make serious adverse effects. Does she agree that, if we are to storage more viable. continue to take the right decisions for the long term, it is important that that political consensus is maintained, Boiler Scrappage Scheme and that we should not be distracted by the noise being made by those who claim that climate change is not a 15. Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): What serious risk? assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the boiler scrappage scheme against its objectives. [318554] Joan Ruddock: I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. We have seen nothing that undermines the main body of The Minister of State, Department of Energy and climate research, which goes back many decades and Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): The boiler scrappage has involved some of the best scientists in the world. scheme commenced on 5 January this year and is proving Although it is clear that there have been some errors to be highly successful. It has, to date, received more and possible misjudgments, we know that CO2 emissions than 95,000 applications. The scheme contributes to in the atmosphere are growing at an unprecedented rate. DECC’s objectives to reduce greenhouse gas emissions We have every reason to accept that that is the result of in the UK through reduced energy consumption and to human activities. I am pleased that the consensus that it ensure that the UK benefits from the business and is human activities that are leading to the excessive employment opportunities of a low-carbon future. We warming that we see, and to the other climatic effects estimate that the scheme will reduce CO2 emissions by that we associate with climate change, holds across between 1.1 million and 1.4 million tonnes a year. this House. 441 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 442

Oil Refining Mr. Pelling: Does the Minister not agree, though, that it would be useful to have such conversations with 17. Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): that climate change unit in order to argue that, for the What recent discussions he has had with the petroleum sake of belief and faith in climate change, those figures industry on capacity reductions in the oil refining should be credible? Do you think that we should ask the sector. [318557] university to conduct an independent inquiry, or, if it is unable to do so, that the Government themselves should The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy initiate an independent inquiry? and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): The UK operates a market-based approach to the supply of refined products, Mr. Speaker: Naturally, I do not think anything on and it is therefore a matter for individual companies to these matters, but I am sure that the Minister does. determine how best to meet their customer demand and what level of refining capacity is needed to do that. Joan Ruddock: Indeed, I do, Mr. Speaker. I do not However, my Department has an ongoing dialogue with think it appropriate for us to be in discussion with the the UK downstream oil sector, including the oil refining university of East Anglia. It has announced that an industry as represented by the UK Petroleum Industry independent review, chaired by Sir Muir Russell, will Association. As part of that dialogue, we recently look into the data and the e-mail hacking incident. It commissioned and published a report by respected will report later in the spring, and those findings will of independent consultants on the UK downstream oil course be made public. That is appropriate. infrastructure. On our belief in the science, I have already said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Mr. Crabb: I thank the Minister for that reply, and Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) that the Government remain for making time before Christmas to meet me and absolutely convinced. We believe that the data worldwide discuss this issue. However, is he aware of the enormous are robust, and that we have no reason to question concern among UK refiners about the renewable heat them. However, it is appropriate that the East Anglian incentive? They believe that it will load them with an incident be investigated thoroughly. additional cost burden and place them at a severe Topical Questions competitive disadvantage, which will only raise and heighten fears about potential plant closures and enormous job losses as a result. T1. [318565] Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental Mr. Kidney: Yes, I am aware of the concern that the responsibilities. hon. Gentleman refers to, and I met members of the PIA this week to discuss that and other issues. The Government The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change are listening to their point of view, and we have responded (Edward Miliband): My Department works with others to their representations already. I know that the Treasury to ensure that Britain can take the lead in low-carbon has certainly got in mind their point of view as it works manufacturing. Today we are announcing a new research toward this year’s Budget. and development facility for offshore wind blade testing in Blyth, following Government investment of £18.5 million. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): We also welcome Mitsubishi’s announcement that it My hon. Friend will be aware of the sale of Grangemouth, will locate its offshore research and development facility and that Stanlow in my constituency is up for sale. Will in the UK, creating 200 skilled jobs, following last he ensure that the Department keeps a close eye on the week’s announcement by Clipper Windpower about its broader public interest and, specifically, that it helps at factory in the north-east. a local level to ensure that the work force are properly protected in such circumstances? Sir Nicholas Winterton: I obviously thank the Secretary of State for that detailed response, but it will not have anything to do with my question. Mr. Kidney: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. There have been a number of reviews by participants in that A 92-year-old, partially sighted, disabled constituent market in recent years, and I agree that it is important has written to me on the advice of Age Concern about that all members of the industry are engaged in such her serious problems over two years with the Warm reviews, including the work force and their trade union Front team, which installed a condenser boiler. The representatives. problem, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne) referred but did not receive a sensible reply, has caused a total breakdown of the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit boiler. Warm Front can do nothing about it, and my constituent has had to spend more than £200 herself on 19. Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): a private contractor to provide her with heat. Will the Whether he has had recent discussions with representatives Government do something about it, and will the Secretary of the university of East Anglia on the work of its of State look into Warm Front’s ineffective and inefficient climatic research unit. [318560] operations?

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman raises a serious Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): The Secretary of State question about his constituent, and I assure him that if has not had any recent discussions with representatives he passes the details to us my hon. Friend the Under- of the university of East Anglia on the work of its Secretary will look into it urgently and talk to Warm climate research unit. Front about sorting out the problem. When the Department 443 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 444 came into being, there were a number of complaints Mr. Kidney: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is about Warm Front, and we took a whole series of part of our strategy of addressing the problem of actions to improve the value for money and operation people’s incomes and ability to pay energy bills. He is of the scheme. I think that they are having an effect, but right that even during this toughest of times and the when there are cases in which things go wrong, we want recession that we have been through, a Labour Chancellor to take action as quickly as possible, working with has maintained the higher amounts of both the winter Warm Front, and we will do so in that case. fuel allowance and the cold weather payment this year, because he understands that that is the right thing to do Mr. Michael Clapham (Barnsley, West and Penistone) for the vulnerable people involved. (Lab): My hon. Friend will be aware that there have been 592,000 chronic obstructive pulmonary disease T2. [318566] Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) claims and 170,000 vibration white finger claims. In (Con): Ofgem’s latest figures show that prepayment other words, 750,000 claims have gone through his meter customers, who are often from the poorest Department, so a great deal of experience in them will households, are still paying up to £60 a year more for have been gained. Will he ensure that in future, if there their electricity and up to £107 a year more for their gas. is a potential liability relating to a prescribed disease in Given the profits being made by the energy companies, the mining industry, it will be dealt with by a scheme, will the Secretary of State ask them to eliminate that rather than by the courts at an enormous cost? differential completely? Mr. Kidney: We have eradicated the differential between The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy prepayment meters and the standard credit, so the hon. and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): Yes, I acknowledge Gentleman has now moved on to the differential between the huge scale of the two compensation schemes that the prepayment meter and direct debit. At present, the my hon. Friend mentions, and more than £4 billion of licence condition is that a cost differential is permissible taxpayers’ money has been paid out in compensation to to reflect simply the extra cost of providing the means miners, who have suffered some horrendous injuries. I of payment. According to Ofgem, a prepayment meter think that my hon. Friend alludes predominantly to the costs about £88 a year more to administer than a direct knee injury litigation that is ongoing, and I assure him debit. That would be the difficulty for me in acceding to that we have attempted to learn all the lessons of those the hon. Gentleman’s latest request. earlier schemes in order to ensure that, if liability is established, we act in the way that he asks me to ask. In Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): On steel the meantime, I credit my hon. Friend and others who and energy, will the Secretary of State support the view have made representations to the Government about of the Community union that the carbon credits for that knee condition for a new industrial injury benefit, Tata’s Teesside plant should be held in trust until the which is now in place. company agrees to talk with the Government and the union on resuming work there? Will he also meet me Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): and colleagues to look at an over-rigorous interpretation The recently announced feed-in tariff creates a two-tier of an EU regulation that might seriously damage electric structure for small generators that feed into the grid, arc furnace steel making in the UK? leaving those who were prepared to take the initiative in the early stages, at their own financial risk, much Edward Miliband: I am sure that we can arrange a worse off. How do the Government justify that meeting with my right hon. Friend on the second question unfairness? that he raised. On his first question, I should say that the Teesside issue is important. My right hon. Friend The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Lord Mandelson continues to be in discussions about Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): I have sympathy with the serious matter of what can be done at the plant. We the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised. However, he will continue to take those discussions forward. needs to bear in mind that all the schemes impact on T3. [318567] Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and everyone, and we all have to make a contribution if the Crayford) (Con): The disparity between wholesale and issue is to be addressed. The whole point of setting the retail energy prices is woefully lacking in transparency. feed-in tariff now is to enable the generation of more Even Consumer Focus, the Government’s own watchdog, renewable energy, and that is why it requires the best has said that households could be paying as much as possible incentive. Those who have already taken the £74 a year too much. The Government seem to have initiative on their own account will not be producing dithered over the issue. Will Ministers follow our advice more generation, and the Government’s aim has to be and take some decisive action by referring the matter to to get more in place and to create the incentive to an independent inquiry? make that happen. If we were to equalise the payment, that would not create more generation or more CO2 Edward Miliband: As I have said before in the House, savings. I am not in favour of referring these matters to the Competition Commission if we can avoid it, because Mr. Jim McGovern (Dundee, West) (Lab): In my that will tie the whole energy industry up in knots. What home town of Dundee, tens of thousands of people is our strategy as a Government? It is to give the have claimed the cold weather payment over the past regulators more power, as we are doing in the Energy year. I hope that the Minister agrees that there is still Bill; to eliminate some of the worst unfairnesses—in much to be done. Does he also agree that without the respect of prepayment meters, for example; and, rightly, cold weather payment and the winter fuel allowance, to say to companies that they have a responsibility not many of the most vulnerable in our society would have only to their shareholders but to customers. We are to endure the unacceptable face of fuel poverty? doing all those things. 445 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 446

Mr. Evennett: What about transparency? T7. [318571] Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [Interruption.] I come Edward Miliband: On transparency, it is only because hot-foot from a meeting at your office, Sir. the Government have got Ofgem to publish a quarterly Does the Secretary of State agree that despite the report on the relationship between wholesale and retail controversy over the university of East Anglia e-mails, prices that we now know what that relationship is. the science is very clear, not least from other data sets, Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): Does that global warming is a real effect, and that we should the Minister understand that up to 40 per cent. of not be distracted by this controversy from insisting on domestic energy bills can be accounted for by heating our policies? hot water, and that much of that can be wasted through inefficient installations? Is he talking to the Minister Edward Miliband: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman with responsibility for water at the Department for on his just-in-time questioning. He raises an important Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about the synergies issue. Clearly, mistakes have been made, and it is important between smart metering roll-out in water and electricity that those are looked at and that the Intergovernmental and other synergies between water efficiency and energy Panel on Climate Change looks at its procedures. I have efficiency? written to Dr. Pachauri to emphasise our support for the organisation, but also our wish that it looks at its Edward Miliband: I clearly should be, and following procedures to try to eliminate such errors. The overall my hon. Friend’s request I am sure that we will do so. picture is very clear: climate change is happening, it is She makes an important point about the heating of hot real, and it is man-made. It is very important to say water and the role that can be played by the kind of that. technology that can both heat hot water and help to heat people’s homes—combined heat and power. There Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): I is a lot to be done in that area. We are introducing the should like to press the Secretary of State on the answer renewable heat incentive, which will make an enormous that he gave earlier on Warm Front. Does he think that difference to people in heating their homes, but we will there is a potential conflict of interest while eaga is also engage in the discussions that she suggests. effectively allowed to award itself contracts for Warm Front grants? What steps is he taking to put a stop to T5. [318569] Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) that practice? (Con): Will the Secretary of State speak to Unite in the strongest terms about its proposed industrial action at Mr. Kidney: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who the port of Milford Haven, which, although temporarily recently came to see me personally to talk about that postponed, would risk cutting off access to vital supplies issue. Among the changes that my right hon. Friend the of crude oil and liquefied natural gas? Our energy Secretary of State mentioned was ensuring that eaga is situation is too fragile for security of supply to be used put on the same footing as any other contractor in as a tool in industrial disputes, no matter how legitimate having to bid competitively for contracts under Warm the grievances of the employees concerned. Front, in the same way as anybody else.

Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman raises an T8. [318573] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Will the important issue. While this is of course ultimately a Secretary of State make every effort to republish and matter for unions and management to resolve, we have promulgate the conclusions of the Stern review, which engaged in discussions with both sides on these issues. I make very clear the huge cost to our children and am pleased that the strike action that was due on grandchildren if we do not take action now to tackle Tuesday of this week did not go ahead, and I very much climate change? The costs will be huge and fall heavily hope that a satisfactory resolution can be reached. on future generations. Mr. Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry, North-West) (Lab): Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman makes a point I am sure that my right hon. Friend shares with me a that is central to this debate. We need to be open about mutual concern that we exploit every drop of gas and the fact that there are costs to acting on climate change, oil in and around our own waters. May I congratulate but we know that the costs of not acting would be him on the introduction of the field allowance in the greater. That central conclusion of the Stern report is North sea, which is proving so successful? I put it to important in shaping the climate change debate, and he him, in the same terms, that the brownfield sites around is right that we should emphasise it. the same area, but a bit further away from the existing production facilities, may have 80 per cent. of what is recoverable, and that we should introduce something Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will that makes those equally viable. my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State look closely at what is happening in terms of sustainability and Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend draws attention to progressive environmental policies in Kirklees council, an important decision made by the Chancellor about in whose area my constituency sits? Will he particularly the field allowance, which I believe was initially introduced examine the warm zone initiative, which is so successful in the last Budget. He built on that in the pre-Budget that many local authorities are coming to look at it? report, and has since made further announcements on May I invite him to come and look at it himself? it. I will ensure that this is brought to his attention, and I am sure that he will be looking at the issues that my Joan Ruddock: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of hon. Friend raises. State will have to answer for himself on whether he can go and look at that, but many of us have had conversations Mr. Speaker: I call Dr. Evan Harris. with Kirklees council and visited it, because there is no 447 Oral Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Oral Answers 448 question but that it has been exemplary and pioneered Mr. Kidney: As my hon. Friend knows, I take a keen work involving local government, energy companies interest in this issue, and I stand ready to help him in and community groups all working together to get any way I possibly can. community solutions. It was part of the inspiration behind the community energy saving programme, which Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): As Britain is the Government recently rolled out and which is going now a net importer of gas, is the Secretary of State extremely well. The programme will provide £350 million happy with the fact that we have only 16 days of gas of funding in order that we get such real community storage, compared with 99 days in Germany and 122 days endeavours off the ground on the same basis as Kirklees’ in France? pioneering warm zones. Edward Miliband: I expect better from the hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.]Perhaps I should not expect T9. [318574] Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): Recent better. The truth is that, as I said in our earlier discussion, polls show that the British public have had a dramatic the National Grid has clearly said that those numbers change of mind about whether climate change is man-made. are meaningless, because they do not take account of Will the Government change their mind about the huge our indigenous supplies. It is really important to emphasise subsidies for land-based wind farms, which are not only the role that our indigenous supplies continue to play ineffective but despoil the countryside? along with imports and storage.

Edward Miliband: No, we will not. Here we see what Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Now people worry about in relation to the Conservative that the Energy Bill, which relates particularly to carbon party: an unchanged party, with people saying that capture and storage, has passed all its stages in this climate change does not exist and that we should not go House, will my right hon. Friend talk urgently to the ahead with onshore wind. So no, Labour will not follow Crown Estate and the energy companies operating in the hon. Lady’s advice. the North sea about the continuity of maintenance of pipelines between oil and gas extraction and carbon storage? Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): My hon. Friend will be aware that progress is being Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend raises an important made in the administration of Bowater in my constituency. issue, and we are in dialogue with the Crown Estate Energy is a huge component part of the problem, so about a whole range of issues including the one to will he assure me that his Department will work with which he draws attention. I thank him for his role in the the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to Bill, and the important thing now is to get it on the help facilitate the recovery of the business on that site? statute book as soon as possible. 449 25 FEBRUARY 2010 Business of the House 450

Business of the House do that by Monday at the latest, so that we can table the necessary amendments? Does she agree that it would be desirable for the Back-Bench business committee to be 11.34 am up and running at the beginning of the next Parliament? Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): Would not a clear answer to those questions disperse May I ask the Leader of the House to give us the the “climate of suspicion” to which she referred on business for next week? Monday? Related to that, will she tell us how she The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet intends to timetable Thursday between debates and Harman): The business for next week will be: votes? The House will want to know that there will be enough time to vote on the remaining resolutions and MONDAY 1MARCH—Opposition day (half-day) the selected amendments. (4th allotted day—1st part). There will be a debate on the Government’s record on defence. This debate will May we have a debate on the Procedure Committee’s arise on an Opposition motion, followed by a motion final report on the election of the Speaker and Deputy relating to the draft Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 Speakers? As the right hon. and learned Lady will (Continuance in force of sections 1 to 9) Order 2010, appreciate, decisions on that need to be made before the followed by a motion relating to the draft Social Security beginning of the next Parliament. Benefits Up-rating Order 2010. On elections, may we have a debate on the by-elections process? This week, the Electoral Commission delivered TUESDAY 2MARCH—Motion to approve a Money Resolution on the Constitutional Reform and Governance a stinging report on the Government for their unnecessary Bill, followed by remaining stages of the Constitutional delay in scheduling the election in Glasgow, North-East. Reform and Governance Bill. Given that there is currently a similar delay for voters in North-West Leicestershire, is it not time for the House WEDNESDAY 3MARCH—Second Reading of the Bribery to consider a mandatory time limit within which by-elections Bill [Lords]. are held, so that we can avoid the Government placing THURSDAY 4MARCH—Motion to approve a statutory electoral advantage over the constitutional rights of instrument, followed by consideration of a procedural citizens to be represented here? motion, followed by proceedings on House business. Turning to next Thursday, may we have an extra day FRIDAY 5MARCH—Private Members’ Bills. on the remaining stages of the Constitutional Reform The provisional business for the week commencing and Governance Bill? That is a huge piece of legislation, 8 March will include: to which a great deal has been added—more Government MONDAY 8MARCH—Remaining stages of the Crime amendments are expected—and 28 clauses, which is and Security Bill. approximately one third of the Bill, have not been TUESDAY 9MARCH—Opposition day (5th allotted day). debated at all. Given the right hon. and learned Lady’s There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject commitment to ensure that the House has better powers to be announced. of scrutiny, would not that be a good place to start? WEDNESDAY 10 MARCH—Estimates day (2nd allotted Where is the annual debate on international development? day). There will be a debate on alcohol, followed by a I raised that with the right hon. and learned Lady at the debate on taxes and charges on road users. Details will last business questions and she said there would be one be given in the Official Report. “as soon as possible.” That debate is still not on the [The details are as follows: Taxes and charges on road radar, and we need it not least so that we can debate the users: 6th Report from the Transport Committee of lessons to be learned from the tragedy in Haiti. Session 2008-09, HC 103; and Government response— Related to that, may we have a debate in Government 6th special report of Session 2008-09, HC 995; and time on Afghanistan and our overseas commitments? Alcohol: 1st Report from the Health Committee, HC 151.] The right hon. and learned Lady has consistently said At 7.00 pm the House will be asked to agree all that the House should have opportunities to debate outstanding estimates. defence, but we have not had one of the four defence debates to which we are entitled in each Session. Next THURSDAY 11 MARCH—Topical debate: subject to be announced, followed by proceedings on the Consolidated Monday, the Opposition are having to give up one of Fund Bill, followed by Second Reading of the Northern their Opposition days to debate defence, at a time when Ireland Assembly Members Bill [Lords]. the country is at war. When are the Government going to make time to debate such issues? FRIDAY 12 MARCH—Private Members’ Bills. What has happened to the debate on international Sir George Young: The House is grateful for next women’s day? Although that falls on 8 March and week’s business. a debate is scheduled in another place, there is no sign On oral questions, how satisfied is the right hon. and of it in our provisional business. I cannot believe that learned Lady that the shuffle is entirely random? What the Leader of the House plans to overlook that important are the odds, as happened in today’s Question Time, of event. no Labour Back Benchers being selected for one of the Finally, it will come as no surprise if I ask again for first 16 questions, nor a single topical question to the the dates of the Easter recess. We keep being told that Energy Secretary? Have Government Back Benchers this will be announced in the usual way, but it is rather simply given up? unusual—with just 26 working days until Good Friday—for On the business for next Thursday, can the Leader of us to be kept in the dark. May I repeat my assumption the House clarify today what the Deputy Leader of the that the House rises on 1 April and does not return, House refused to clarify on Monday—namely, that all having listened to the Chancellor’s final Budget on of the recommendations in the Wright report that need 24 March? Or can the right hon. and learned Lady tell a decision by the House will be tabled, and that she will us otherwise? 451 Business of the House25 FEBRUARY 2010 Business of the House 452

Ms Harman: The shuffle for oral questions is of On the timetabling of business next Thursday, we course completely random, and I am sure that the right have had many hours of debate on the substance of the hon. Gentleman was not suggesting otherwise. He can Wright Committee report: we had a full day’s debate on see the figures: Labour Members tabled questions, but Monday; we have had two Adjournment debates; I have they did not get called up first and that is the way that spoken about it often; and we have discussed it at these things sometimes work. I am sure he would not business questions. We have had more than eight hours wish to cast any aspersions on those who do the selections. in debating time alone. In my view, we have debated the This afternoon, I hope that the Government will Wright Committee report enough—what we need is some re-table the remaining motions on the Wright Committee voting and decision making. As I set out, we debated it recommendations that did not get passed on Monday. on Monday, and the voting will be next Thursday. They will all be on the Order Paper as substantive We will have a procedural motion. When I table it, motions for hon. Members to vote on next Thursday Members will see that they can spend their time either 4 March. Hon. Members will also be able to table debating it or having a further discussion on the Wright amendments to those motions. I have looked at the Committee proposals—I am not bothered either way. proposals in the Committee’s report and I am satisfied [Interruption.] No, I think that we have had enough that should Members wish to table amendments to any debate. I am not bothered, but I am concerned that we of the remaining recommendations, they will be able to actually get to the voting. About 90 minutes after we vote on them next Thursday. It does not matter how an start the debate on the procedural motion, we shall start issue comes to the House for a vote, whether it is voting, so that we conclude all the votes on the Wright through Government motion or an amendment tabled Committee substantive motions and the amendments at by an hon. Member that is selected by Mr. Speaker. The a reasonable time on Thursday. Then hon. Members issue is whether, if hon. Members wish to vote on a can return to their constituencies knowing—I hope—that Wright Committee proposal, they will have the opportunity they have improved how the House works. to do so. I am satisfied that if hon. Members wish to It is very likely that we will be tabling motions arising vote on any recommendation from the Wright Committee, out of the Wright Committee proposals for the election all that they have to do is table an amendment to the of Deputy Speakers—that issue has been in the pipeline motions that we will table this afternoon and they will for some time. have that vote. I hope that that lays hon. Members’ fears On the question of by-elections, I think that we have to rest. an excellent new Member for Glasgow, North-East. He I mentioned the climate of suspicion in order to say is very often in his place in the House—he is not in it that it was unwarranted. Sometimes, people like to today, but he is an active Member of the House, as well prove their struggle by struggling against something. If as an active constituency MP. I think, therefore, that we they have to feel that they are struggling against me to had a really excellent result in that by-election. We also make these changes, they can go ahead, but that is not had the tragic loss of the Member for North-West the reality of the situation. I can assure hon. Members Leicestershire. Let us bear in mind that there will be a that the reality is that all of the recommendations by the general election shortly. [Interruption.] Surely the hon. Wright Committee will be available to be voted on, if Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) is not suggesting hon. Members wish to do so, because all that they have that we go through the expense of a by-election immediately to do is table amendments to them—[Interruption.] I in advance of a general election—[Interruption.] Well, can hear hon. Members muttering, and I understand if he is, I do not agree with him. If that is what he really their concern, because they are worried that the amendments believes, why does he not come forward with an amendment will not be selected. There will be an opportunity for to the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill? He Mr. Speaker to reassure the House on that basis, so that has not tabled any amendments at any stage of that Bill hon. Members know what will be selected and that they to give effect to what he says he is so passionate about. will have the opportunity to vote. Am I really likely to Suddenly he has discovered that he is passionately in say this week in and week out and then suddenly favour of it, but he has never done anything about it in discover, on 4 March, that—[Interruption.] Well, as I the past, so I take that to be hot air. have asked that question and got the wrong answer, I On an international women’s day debate, I welcome shall answer it myself. I would not be standing here the commitment that the shadow Leader of the House saying what will happen if I thought that there was any has expressed to such a day, and I think that he will find chance that it would not. It is all going to be fine, and that it might be topical come next week. [Interruption.] hon. Members just need to turn up and vote for That was a hint, but I shall leave hon. Members to work it—[Interruption.] The position is clear. it out. On the question of the Back Bench business committee, On international development, there will be a debate the shadow Leader of the House said that he would like shortly on that—I have not overlooked it. We have had it to be ready to be up and running after the general many days’ debate on defence—they run throughout election. In fact, the Wright Committee proposes that the year—and if Conservative Members choose to table we should agree in principle and refer it to the Procedure an additional day’s debate on that for their Opposition Committee, so that it can work out all the Standing day, that is entirely a matter for them. Orders, so that the committee is ready to be implemented On my announcements for House business, I announced immediately by the new Parliament. Indeed, we picked the firm business today for next week and the provisional up that Wright Committee proposal—it forms the basis business for the week after, and that is the usual way of of our substantive motion—and the committee will be doing things. ready to be up and running if, next Thursday, we pass the resolution that I have tabled. It will then go to the Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I have Procedure Committee, which will no doubt do its work a terrible memory, so I am sure that I have simply in its admirable and prompt way. forgotten the point in the Wright Committee report 453 Business of the House25 FEBRUARY 2010 Business of the House 454

[Mr. David Heath] Can we know when that motion will be tabled, and will she confirm that we shall have a debate before a request suggesting that the Back-Bench business committee for a dissolution is passed by the Commons? should be referred first to the Procedure Committee for consideration. However, given that the Leader of the Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) House has asserted that it is the case, she will be able to (LD): And a vote. remind me of exactly where that suggestion comes in the report. Mr. Heath: And, as my hon. Friend says, will the Leader of the House also confirm that we shall have a May we have a statement from the Chief Secretary to vote? the Treasury on Equitable Life? We had an extraordinarily well attended meeting on the subject yesterday, at which Ms Harman: As for the Back-Bench business committee, we learned some things to the benefit of Equitable Life let me remind the House that our motion, which has policyholders—that there would be no means test and been on the Order Paper for some weeks and which will that it is likely that estates will benefit—but we failed to be voted on next Thursday, says that get any sense of a clear timetable on the Government “this House approves recommendation 17 of the First Report of finally resolving this important issue. What is more, we the Select Committee on Reform of the House of Commons…and also heard from the current chief executive of Equitable looks forward to the House being offered the opportunity within Life, Chris Wiscarson, that he has repeatedly sought a 10 sitting weeks of the beginning of the next session of Parliament”— meeting with the Treasury, but has received no response. so it is not time unlimited— That really is an extraordinary state of affairs, so I hope “to establish a backbench business committee and a new category that the Chief Secretary will come to the House and of backbench business, in the light of further consideration by the explain himself. Procedure Committee.” We have tabled—[Interruption.] Indeed, it is our motion. While the Chief Secretary is here, I wonder whether We have therefore tabled a motion for the approval of we might have, not so much a statement or a debate, but recommendation 17, on setting up the committee, as probably more of a seminar, for those of us who are well as for a timetable for that, so it is not as though the rather slow on such matters, because I simply cannot proposal is being kicked into the long grass. understand how the Royal Bank of Scotland, which is 84 per cent. owned by the UK taxpayer, can announce, If the hon. Gentleman thinks that that is not the right simultaneously, losses of £3.6 billion and bonuses to its way to frame the proposal, he can table an amendment. staff of £1.3 billion. That is the sort of arithmetic that I He does not need to look to me for any further progress; simply cannot understand. Perhaps we can have it explained he can do something himself. That is the whole point why the Government are such a poor safeguarder of the about House business. We have tabled a substantive national interest as not to force a wholly owned motion. I think that it is a good substantive motion, but subsidiary—the Royal Bank of Scotland—to do what if he wants to amend it, he can amend it however he we want it to do, which is to be fair to people across the likes. He does not need to worry about what my view is: country. thereisafreevote,and,whateverhetables,hon.Members will look at it and decide whether they support it. May we have a statement from the Secretary of State On the second point, I think that the hon. Gentleman for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on our relations is right: what I said was wrong, but I am still right as to with Latin America? We are also concerned about the the general—[Interruption.] There was a technical error heightening of tension with Argentina and the support in what I said, but overall I am still right. However, he for the Argentine position expressed by many south might well be right that the House wants to firm it up; American countries. We ought to be made aware of the and if it does, he can go ahead. Government’s current view. Equitable Life remains an important issue—there The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire was a meeting in the House yesterday—and work on it (Sir George Young), the shadow Leader of the House, is ongoing. mentioned the Report stage of the Constitutional Reform As for the RBS bonuses, the hon. Gentleman will and Governance Bill. Every time we point out the know that, following the international credit crisis, we difficulties of Report stages, the Leader of the House are concerned to ensure, first, that all the public money tells us that everything is fine. We have had two Report that we put in—and that had to be put in—to shore up stages of Bills this week—on the Children, Schools and the banks and stop them collapsing, as well as stopping Families Bill and the Energy Bill—when 18 new clauses the disastrous effect that that would have had on depositors and 49 amendments, of which 29 were Government and wider confidence in the economy, should be paid amendments, went completely undebated in the Chamber back. Ultimately, of course, the money should all be and were passed, unheard and unseen, to another place. paid back, which is why we are opposed to selling off That is not how we should be doing business. How discount shares. Secondly, those institutions should ensure many times do we have to say that? that they lend to businesses and approve mortgages—that Lastly, let me refer the Leader of the House to that is a priority, as well as paying back—and that they have seminal document “The Governance of Britain”, the a remuneration scheme that discourages short-termism Green Paper that was going to introduce substantial and risk. reforms to how this House works. Let me take her back That is why we have worked through the Financial to the recommendation in paragraph 35: Services Authority regime and, internationally, through “The Government believes that the convention should be the G20 and the European Union, for an international changed so that the Prime Minister is required to seek the system that ensures a more long-termist approach, rather approval of the House of Commons before asking the Monarch than a short-term, risk-taking approach, as well as to for a dissolution.” help with the deficit, which has been caused by the 455 Business of the House25 FEBRUARY 2010 Business of the House 456 financial crisis. The deficit is not the cause of the House will reach—[Interruption.] Well, if hon. Members financial problems in the economy; it is the result of have a solution to this, they need do no more than table them. In order to help pay that back, we have had to amendments to the resolutions that will be before the increase taxes, which we have done in two ways. First, House next Thursday. all income over £150,000 will be subject to a 50 per cent. tax rate. Secondly, all banks thinking of paying bonuses Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): Now that will have to pay a 50 per cent. tax on that bonus pool Commander Ali Dizaei has been convicted and jailed, before they pay out a single penny on bonuses. That is may we have a statement as soon as possible on how our approach, and it has been set out by the Prime senior police officers in the Met are selected and appointed, Minister and the Chancellor. and on the question of whether the commissioner should As for the Report stages of Bills, again I say to the not have a much greater role in that? hon. Gentleman that he has been concerned—he has Ms Harman: My hon. Friend raises an important expressed those concerns consistently over the months point. We want to ensure that the Metropolitan Police and years—but he and his hon. Friends are in a position Commissioner has a team in which he has full confidence, to table amendments to our resolutions; and, if the and the whole team needs to be properly accountable to House approves a different way of dealing with things, the people of London. I want to take this opportunity that will be how we deal with them in future. to pay tribute to the team of police and prosecutors As for the Falkland Islands, we are absolutely clear: who made sure that justice was done in the case of there is self-determination for the people of the Falklands. Ali Dizaei. Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions are next week, when the hon. Gentleman can ask more questions Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): The Leader about the issue of the Foreign Secretary, if he would of the House will know that the schools funding formula like to. discriminates seriously against counties such as Several hon. Members rose— Worcestershire. May we have an urgent statement on the reasons for the delay in the publication of the Mr. Speaker: Order. Thirty right hon. and hon. Members consultation document on the funding formula review, are seeking to catch my eye, so brief questions and brief which was expected last month? answers are required if I am to have any chance of accommodating everybody. Ms Harman: I will ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families to write directly to the Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): Returning to hon. Gentleman. the mundane, will the Leader of the House consider setting time aside for a debate on the gritting performance Janet Anderson (Rossendale and Darwen) (Lab): May of local authorities? Lancashire county council, which I urge my right hon. and learned Friend, in her role as failed to grit bus routes, contrasts with Westminster Leader of the House, to take a close look at the mptweets council, which I understand wants to know from its website, which has been set up by a group called The residents whether their pavements were gritted quickly Year of Collaboration? It has set up an individual enough. People throughout the country are bemused Twitter account in the names of every MP in the north-west, that, in the 21st century, snow should bring their so our constituents now believe that they are twittering communities to a standstill and that their lives should with us when, in fact, we have nothing whatever to do be put at risk on roads that are ungritted. with the site. Ms Harman: As the weather is still bad, there is Ms Harman: I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this concern not only about what happened in the depth of matter to public attention. This is a real problem, and I the winter, but about what might continue to happen to will see what Ministers might be able to do about it. In businesses and to all road users. I will raise the matter fact, my own Twitter account was hacked into this with the Department for Communities and Local week—my hon. Friend did not know this; hers was not Government and the Department for Transport, which a planted question—and a tweet purportedly sent by are working together on this, and get my hon. Friend an me was widely circulated. I can assure everyone that it answer to what is no doubt a frustrating issue for all the was not from me. I got a response to that bogus tweet constituents whom she so excellently represents—namely, from the former shadow Leader of the House, the hon. the really poor performance of Lancashire county council. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan), who Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Will the is now the shadow Prisons Minister. I need to get back Leader of the House be prepared to tell us whether she to him and tell him that the tweet was not from me. I would support an amendment that would prevent the would never send a tweet like that. There is a real issue programming of amendments and new clauses debated here, and we need to sort it out. on Report? Also, as chairman of the United Kingdom- Falkland Islands all-party parliamentary group, may I Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): We already request that a Minister appear before the House next know what too many twitters make, don’t we? Moving week to update us on the tensions in the south Atlantic? swiftly on, may we have a debate on the future of community hospitals? At the end of 2008, the East Ms Harman: There will be Foreign Office questions Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust promised a new hospital next week, and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman put for Clitheroe and, last May, found £15.5 million to his question about the Falkland Islands to the Foreign spend on it. I am therefore baffled as to why it announced Secretary at that time. As far as the—oh God! I can’t in November that the project was frozen because it did remember what his first question was. [Interruption.] not have the money. Community hospitals are vital to Oh, yes; amendments. Some hon. Members want more this country, and Clitheroe deserves its hospital. Please programming because they want to be sure that the may we have a debate on this issue? 457 Business of the House25 FEBRUARY 2010 Business of the House 458

Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman can rest assured Ms Harman: I will look into that and get the relevant that we remain committed to improving health care, Minister to write to the hon. Gentleman. because we believe that investment in public services is not a millstone round the neck of the economy, and Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): My that it actually provides vital public services such as right hon. and learned Friend might well have heard of health care. We will ensure that we pay down the deficit, the recent tragic murder of a Sikh shopkeeper in my halving it over the next four years, without harming constituency. He was a much-loved and respected member vital front-line services such as his community hospital. of our community and of the Sikh community. Would I do not think that he could be reassured in that way by it be appropriate to have a debate in the House on the the position taken by his own Front Benchers. value of small shops and shopkeepers, and of small shopping centres? Is it not about time we stood up for Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): In 2004, Robin small shops and shopkeepers against the Tescos and the Singh applied for asylum, and I made vigorous Asdas that want to drive them all out of business? representations on his behalf. However, he was deported. He has now been kidnapped by people in Pakistan Ms Harman: First, may I express my sincere condolences associated with the Taliban, and they are demanding a to the family on that tragic loss of life? I know that it ransom of £100,000. What can the Government do to has been felt not only by the man’s immediate family help? but by the whole neighbourhood. I pay tribute to the people from the local pub who went to his aid. This is Ms Harman: I will ask the Foreign Secretary to look obviously a matter for the police authorities to investigate, into this matter right away, and to contact my right hon. but on the question of support for small shopkeepers, Friend. May I also express every sympathy to the Singh the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and family, who must be besides themselves with anxiety? I the Department for Communities and Local Government will ask the Foreign Office to do everything that it can take every possible step to support the amenity provided to help. by small corner shops in local communities and neighbourhoods. Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Will the Leader of the House urge her ministerial colleagues Mr. Mark Lancaster (North-East Milton Keynes) in the Department for Transport to bring forward the (Con): May we have a debate on housing provision for statement on rolling stock provision? Northern Rail the disabled? Last week, I opened an excellent house was originally promised up to 200 new carriages, but that had been retrofitted by the charity Aspire. Two there is now great uncertainty about how many it will important points were made to me at the time. First, get and when it will get them. there is a shortfall of 300,000 homes for the disabled in the UK at the moment. Secondly, most of the expensive Ms Harman: There is a debate on railways this afternoon cost of retrofitting could be avoided if only developers in Westminster Hall. It will deal with rail fares and were more mindful of the disabled when designing franchises, and I think that the hon. Gentleman will houses. find an opportunity to raise this matter there. Ms Harman: Indeed. The Equality Bill, which is Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): In April this currently being considered by the House of Lords, year, there will be elections in Sudan if all goes according includes a legal duty, as part of the public sector’s to plan. Will the Leader of the House consider having a combined legal duty, to ensure that it tackles discrimination debate on Sudan as those elections lead up to the against, and promotes equality of opportunity for, disabled referendum in 2011 on whether the south should secede? people. Therefore, when making planning decisions and The all-party parliamentary group on Sudan has just giving planning approval, that must be at the forefront conducted an inquiry into how the elections are going, of the minds of those concerned. I hope I can count on and into all the possible repercussions involved, and the the hon. Gentleman’s support the next time I am criticised subject would be well worth a debate, given all the time, for political correctness because of my support for the effort and money that the British Government have Equality Bill. I also hope I can count on his support in invested in Sudan. relation to public spending, because provision for disabled people and for their housing costs money. Although we Ms Harman: I pay tribute to the work of my hon. must get the deficit down, we must keep ensuring that Friend and the other hon. Members who play a part in we make progress towards equality of opportunity for the all-party group on Sudan. In the first instance, he disabled people. should perhaps raise this question with the Foreign Secretary at Foreign Office questions next week. Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Can we have an early debate on parliamentary staff? If I hired Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): Before Parliament someone who had worked with an ex-convict to carry is dissolved for the general election, will the Leader of out criminal activities, including bribing police officers, the House find Government time in which we can breaking into bank accounts and obtaining secret telephone debate the embarrassing infringement procedures being conversations, any such gentleman would quickly have taken against the Government of the United Kingdom his pass taken off him, yet Mr. Andy Coulson stands by the European Commission in respect of the accused in The Guardian today of all those activities. Government’s failure to pay sick and elderly UK citizens Surely it is time to remove the parliamentary pass from the disability living allowance to which the European that gentleman, so that he cannot roam around the Court of Justice says they are entitled? Westminster precincts. 459 Business of the House25 FEBRUARY 2010 Business of the House 460

Ms Harman: All hon. Members, on both sides of the of criminals through terrorism. I pay tribute to all those House, ought to be very concerned about the issues who worked hard to protect people and to ensure the raised in the report of the Select Committee on Culture, minimum loss of life. However, we cannot be complacent, Media and Sport, to which I assume my right hon. and I know that the hon. Gentleman, all colleagues in Friend refers. The issues raised certainly reflect quite the House and those in the Northern Ireland authorities sharply on those involved, including Andy Coulson, the will play their part to ensure that peace and prosperity Leader of the Opposition’s press secretary. continue.

Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): As Mr. Ian Cawsey (Brigg and Goole) (Lab): My right the Leader of the House has made the extraordinary hon. and learned Friend is a supporter of the music proposition that Members should be urged to table industry, so she may share concerns about the slow amendments, which she herself has decided will not be progress of the Digital Economy Bill in the other place. debated, will she explain the extraordinary logic of Will she use her good offices to ensure that the House wanting to remove the title of Chairman but keep the gets the opportunity to debate the matter, and that the title of Chairman of Ways and Means, as well as, Bill is given every opportunity to get on to the statute presumably, her own name? book before the election? I am only too aware that I must again declare my interest as a member of MP4, Ms Harman: Contrary to popular myth, the issue of the world’s only parliamentary rock band. I know that the change from Chairman to Chair came out of the you are aware, Mr. Speaker, that the excellent charity Wright Committee, of which I was not a member. It was Help for Heroes will be the beneficiaries of proceeds not my proposal, but made in the Wright Committee from our album “Cross Party”, which will be released report. We have tabled it for the House to vote on, and I on 18 March. would certainly vote for it. As for recommendations that the hon. Gentleman says I have decided will not be Ms Harman: I think MP4 is a fantastic group with a available to be voted on, there are none. I have explained great future, and I agree with my hon. Friend that the the process: we have tabled the motion; he can table an Digital Economy Bill is very important. The Prime amendment, as can any other Member, and if it relates Minister has spoken about the great prospects for our to the Wright Committee report, it will no doubt be digital and creative industries, green technologies, advanced selectable and able to be voted on. Come next Thursday, manufacturing and new information technology. We we will all be able to vote on the matter. must invest in those new industries and jobs, so we will provide every support. He can raise the matter at Culture, Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): Media and Sport questions next week, and, if he wants, Many jobs have been created and protected in my in Business, Innovation and Skills questions, too. constituency, with a great deal of partnership working. One of the key partners has been the Northwest Regional Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): We could Development Agency, which is working with me on a debate for a long time whether this morning’s clarification project to rescue Bowater from administration. Can we of the guidelines on assisted suicide amount to a change have a debate on the future of regional development in the law—in my opinion, they do. None the less, if agencies and their importance in helping to create and they are to command widespread respect and confidence, develop jobs in our communities? would it not be appropriate to table a substantive motion on the guidelines to ascertain the will of the House on Ms Harman: My hon. Friend will be able to raise the that change in the law? issue of the Northwest Regional Development Agency in Business, Innovation and Skills questions next week, Ms Harman: It is not appropriate for the will of the and he will no doubt receive the answer from the House to be stated on that matter, because we have an Minister concerned that we greatly value the work of independent prosecutorial system. It is for the Crown regional development agencies, particularly in the north- Prosecution Service, not the House, to decide who is to west. We remain strongly committed to them, and are be prosecuted, on the basis of the evidence in each determined that they will be protected from the Opposition’s individual case. To assist the prosecutorial decision threat of abolition. whether to bring a charge and whether the case passes the threshold for prosecution—sufficiency of evidence Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): May we and whether it is in the public interest—there are guidelines, have a statement next week on the security situation in which the Director of Public Prosecutions and the CPS Northern Ireland, in view of the very serious recent draw up, having engaged in the necessary consultation. incident in Newry and other incidents that demonstrate The DPP and the CPS have done the consultation and the growing threat from so-called dissident republican are drawing up the guidelines, and a copy will no doubt terrorists? Such a statement would allow us to explore be laid in the House of Commons Library. It is not for what the Government are doing to meet that threat—not us to investigate crime or to decide whom to prosecute. only to life and limb but to political stability in the It is for us to decide the law. We have decided the law, Province. and the law has not changed.

Ms Harman: We all understand the concern felt Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): Arising across all political parties in Northern Ireland, and from that point, is it not the case that the DPP has been above all in all parts of every community in Northern acting on instructions from the court, which has had a Ireland, where people want a continuation of peace and number of cases before it and has therefore decided that prosperity and of more control over their own affairs. guidelines should be drawn up. Although I take a They do not want that to be derailed by a small number somewhat different position from the hon. Member for 461 Business of the House25 FEBRUARY 2010 Business of the House 462

[Mr. David Winnick] David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): The Leader of the House may be aware of a petition presented at Croydon, South (Richard Ottaway), would it not be No. 10 yesterday by myself and others, entitled useful to have a debate on the subject nevertheless? The “Homeopathy worked for me” and signed by 25,000 last one was in Westminster Hall on 11 November 2008. people. Given that, and given the controversial report In view of the controversy about assisted suicide, we published this week by the Select Committee on Science should have a debate in the Chamber in the near future. and Technology—which had failed to call as witnesses members of the Society of Homeopaths, doctors who Ms Harman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: the practise homeopathy, and primary care trusts which DPP took the action to draw up the guidelines because commission it—may we have an urgent debate on the he was instructed to do so by a judicial decision. There subject? has been recent extensive debate in the House of Lords on the matter. It is some time since we debated the matter in this House. We have no plans to change the Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman might wish to law, but it is open to hon. Members to seek opportunities raise the subject on the Adjournment. to debate the matter further, either on the Adjournment in Westminster Hall or on Opposition days. Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): May I return the Leader of the House to the issue of the growing Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): tensions in the south Atlantic? Surely it is not sufficient I am glad that the Leader of the House has urged to depend on the vagaries of Foreign Office questions people who care about whether our legislation is properly next week in order to hear what Ministers have to say. scrutinised to vote next Thursday for the amendment Will the Leader of the House think again, and agree calling for the establishment of a House Business that the Foreign Secretary should make a statement to Committee, which would provide for such scrutiny. the House? She knows as well as anyone else what can That, however, does not help us in respect of business happen when a desperate leader who is likely to lose the that is before us now. What assurance can the Leader of next election—such as President Kirchner—can do in the House give that all new clauses tabled to the desperate circumstances. Constitutional Renewal and Governance Bill will be debated next week, and would I be right to suspect— although she always says that we should not be Ms Harman: I shall leave aside the rather stupid suspicious—that the new clause that I have tabled to ending to the right hon. Gentleman’s question. The UK end discrimination against women in the royal succession, Government’s position in relation to the Falklands has which I thought she supported, might not see the light remained the position of successive UK Governments, of debate? and I am sure that it will not change in the future. Our view is that the sovereignty of the Falklands is simply Ms Harman: We have said on a number of occasions not an issue. How many times does that have to be said? that the ending of discrimination in the succession is The Foreign Secretary has made the position absolutely being discussed with other Commonwealth countries. clear, and I cannot imagine that any further light would The Queen is, of course, not only the Head of State of be shed on the matter if he made an oral or written this country, but Queen of the Commonwealth countries. statement. I shall look through the statements that have I suggest that the hon. Gentleman discuss the timing been made recently and send copies to the right hon. of clauses and new proposals in relation to the remaining Gentleman, but he should not do anyone a disservice by stages of the Constitutional Renewal and Governance implying that there will be some sort of change of Bill with the ministerial team at the Ministry of Justice. approach, because there will not be.

Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Notwithstanding (Con): May we have an early debate on the failure of her earlier protestations, will the Leader of the House the regulators in the health service to pick up serious arrange an urgent debate on assisted dying? It is Parliament failings in hospitals? That has happened on a number of that writes laws, and it is for the Director of Public occasions in the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Prosecutions and the courts to interpret those laws. Trust, for instance. It is plain that the system is not There is real concern out in the community that the sufficiently sensitive to detect problems. The statement House is not having a say about the change in the law. was not enough; we now need a full debate. People are very concerned about the possibility that it Ms Harman: As the right hon. and learned Gentleman represents a new back door to euthanasia in the United says, a statement was made about the matter on Wednesday, Kingdom. and the Prime Minister responded to questions about it during Prime Minister’s Question Time. A great deal of Ms Harman: It is clearly our view that there has been action is being taken as a result of the lessons learned no change in the law, and the Government have no from the tragic Staffordshire hospital case. I add my proposals to introduce a change in the law. I will look sympathy to all who have suffered as a result of bad into when the House last had an opportunity to debate treatment at the hospital, and send my condolences to the issue, and will consider, with my colleagues, whether the families of those who have died as a result of bad there is an opportunity for a further debate on it. Even treatment. It is hard enough to face a family tragedy if such a debate takes place, however, I do not think that without feeling that it was unnecessary. Nothing can there will be any question of the Government’s proposing bring back the loved ones of all the people who have suffered legislation. We have new guidelines under an order of so badly, but it may be of some comfort to them if they the court issued by the DPP, and I think that the can be absolutely confident that lessons have really been position is clear. Nevertheless, the House may well wish learned so that this can never happen again. to debate the issue, and I shall have another look at it. 463 Business of the House25 FEBRUARY 2010 Business of the House 464

Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): May we have an to raise the issue of the report published this week by urgent statement on the financial fiasco surrounding members of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, headed the Learning and Skills Council before it is wound up by Dr. Adrienne Key? Dr. Key claims that there is a real and replaced next month by the Skills Funding Agency? link between anorexia and the size of models depicted It is of great concern throughout the House—not least in the media, and has suggested the establishment of a to the Leader of the House’s Cabinet colleague, the body consisting of the Government, physicians, media right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), and to representatives and advertisers to consider possible me—that there is to be the first “hard” federation guidelines on this important issue. between Exeter college and Bicton college in my constituency. The LSC has been told that it will have to Ms Harman: We take an interest in the matter, because borrow £3 million and make a loan of £1 million, and it it involves serious public health issues. It chiefly concerns will withdraw its support for Bicton by the end of the Department of Health, but it is covered to some March unless that happens. May we have an urgent extent by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. statement to clarify what is going on? The hon. Gentleman is right to raise it, and it has also been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, Ms Harman: I will ask the Department for Business, North (Julie Morgan) and the hon. Member for East Innovation and Skills to write the hon. Gentleman a Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). I will let the hon. Gentleman letter about the issues involving the Learning and Skills know whether it will be possible for him to make any Council in his constituency. further progress, in collaboration with other Members and the Government. Mr. Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater) (Con): May we have a debate on tertiary and sixth-form colleges? Mr. Speaker: Last but certainly not least, I call Mr. Bone. The Government recently cut the support grant for capital projects, which was roughly 15 per cent. That means that the colleges cannot reclaim VAT, and it is Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Thank you, affecting capital programmes at all sixth-form and tertiary Mr. Speaker. In relation to next week’s business, will the colleges throughout the United Kingdom. If the situation even-tempered and tranquil Deputy Prime Minister continues, the training of younger people will be stymied, recommend to the Prime Minister that he attend an because the colleges cannot spend the capital. important meeting of an all-party parliamentary group entitled “Preventing workplace harassment and violence”, Ms Harman: I will ask the relevant Ministers to write or might that just ruin her life? to the hon. Gentleman. However, I could have looked into the matter and given him a substantive answer if he Ms Harman: Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the hon. had given me a call or popped into the office to let me Gentleman’s question was not worth waiting for. He is know that he was going to ask his question. such a disappointment sometimes. I still have not given up hope: I am sure that somewhere inside him is what Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): Can we all want to hear. However, I am afraid we were not the Leader of the House tell me where it would be best able to hear it today. 465 25 FEBRUARY 2010 466

Speaker’s Statement Points of Order

12.30 pm 12.31 pm Mr. Speaker: I want to acquaint the House with some Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): On information that I have received. I have received a a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As you will recognise, the report from the Tellers for the Ayes in the Division at Wright Committee report is going to affect how Parliament 7 o’clock last night on alternative investment fund develops for some years to come, so the votes next week managers, the hon. Members for West Ham (Lyn Brown) are of considerable importance. I was, therefore, very and for Bristol, East (Kerry McCarthy). The number of disturbed when the Leader of House suggested that, Aye votes was erroneously reported as 272, instead although she was urging Members to table amendments, of 271. I will direct the Clerk to correct the numbers in there would not be adequate time to debate any of those the Journal accordingly—Ayes 271; Noes 63. amendments. The whole purpose of an amendment is to allow the Member who has tabled it to explain why he or she does or does not want a particular thing to happen, and for that matter then to be discussed. I therefore submit that it is a travesty of parliamentary procedure if there is not a reasonable amount of time to debate amendments, especially amendments urged for by the Leader of the House and selected by you, Mr. Speaker. Is there anything that you can do in your role as protector of the interests and procedure of this House to ensure that there is sufficient—not inordinately long, but at least some—time to debate substantive amendments?

Mr. Speaker: I am happy to comment on that matter, but as the Leader of the House is present, she has an opportunity to respond, if she wishes to do so.

The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet Harman): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. There were two reasons why we put on Monday’s Order Paper as remaining orders of the day all the motions that were going to be tabled by the Government: so that those on which there was unanimity could go through— about 11 of the 16 did go through—and so that colleagues could see our substantive motions well in advance of Monday’s debate and table amendments. Indeed, more than 130 Members did exactly that, and as a result when we had Monday’s debate there were amendments, as well as the Government motions, on the Order Paper. Therefore, the context of Monday’s debate was not only the Wright Committee report and the substantive motions, but the amendments that were already on the Order Paper, including those tabled by the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack). We will have some time for debate next week—about 90 minutes. That is enough time to discuss issues that were already within the purview of the debate on Monday, which lasted for six hours. The reality is that the hon. Gentleman should not believe that Members will not understand some of his proposals because they have not had a chance to debate them, and that therefore they might not vote for them. The truth is that we have had eight hours of debate on this, and there is no procedural issue of substance here. The point here is that we should be clear about what is on the Order Paper and get on and vote on it.

Sir Patrick Cormack rose—

Mr. Speaker: I do not want a prolonged exchange on this matter, but I am in a very generous mood, so if the hon. Gentleman wants to speak again, he can do so.

Sir Patrick Cormack: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am extremely grateful to you for your 467 Points of Order 25 FEBRUARY 2010 468 generosity, but this is a matter that affects the House, Welsh Affairs and it will do so for some years to come. I am prepared to accept there being 90 minutes to debate those amendments that were already on the Order Paper and 12.37 pm that Members know about, but the Leader of the The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): I House has herself urged us this morning to table further beg to move, amendments. My point is that there must be at least That this House has considered the matter of Welsh Affairs. another 90 minutes to debate those new amendments, which none of us has seen or knows about, so we do not As we take this opportunity to debate and celebrate know how we are going to vote on them. I therefore ask all that is Welsh and our pride in Wales, perhaps there is you, Mr. Speaker, to ensure—if you possibly can—that a lesson to be learned from our national team’s sensational there is an extension of that 90-minute period for that last-minute victory against Scotland the other Saturday—do purpose. not write off the red team until the final whistle. By the way, I am talking about rugby and politics, not football. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): On a point of Of course, no one can deny that this year has been order, Mr. Speaker. I want to raise the issue of the tough for us all—families, businesses, communities and advice given by Clerks to Select Committee Chairmen. Governments the world over. Yet, even in this difficult It is my belief that the advice the Clerks provided to the year, Wales has seen a number of firsts, such as our first Science and Technology Committee Chairman was Ashes test match and the first time that the UK Cabinet inadequate, in that the evidence taken by the Committee has ever met in Wales. We have showcased the very best in its evidence check on homeopathy was biased, as they of Wales as a great place to visit, to watch world-class did not call representatives of the homeopathic profession sport and to do excellent business. and instead chose a professor who did not represent the The people of Wales have also resolved that the rise alternative medicine world. They chose the one person of racist, fascist organisations must be stopped. These who would give an answer that suited those who were in far-right groups first tried it on in Swansea, but then opposition. abandoned their vile demonstration plans in Newport and Wrexham in the face of decent, concerted community Mr. Speaker: It is conceivable that that issue might be action. We must not be complacent, however; wherever a proper matter for consideration by the Liaison Committee. the so-called Welsh Defence League and the British I say very clearly to the hon. Gentleman and the House National party threaten our decent, tolerant communities that the reason why I will not comment on this matter is in Wales, we must all stand together to resist them. I am that the Speaker does not comment on matters that pleased to confirm that the first ever conference of appertain to Select Committees, including the provision Unite Against Fascism (Wales) will take place in Cardiff of advice to such Committees. What advice was, or was in early March, and I would welcome support from any not, offered by the Clerk to that Committee is a matter and all parties in Wales. Together, we must prevail over between that Clerk and his or her Committee. If, the poison of racism. notwithstanding what I have just said, the hon. Gentleman Our main task now is how we secure the recovery in remains dissatisfied and is unable to get satisfaction Wales, and the fact that securing the recovery, rather from the Committee, he could consider an approach to than sliding back from recession into depression, is now the Liaison Committee. on the agenda has not happened by chance. After the Let me just come back to the issue that preoccupied worst global recession for 80 years, other economies the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick have experienced far higher levels of unemployment—Spain Cormack) and to which the Leader of the House has 19.5 per cent., France 10 per cent., Ireland 13.3 per replied. I am afraid that I can add very little. The hon. cent., and America 9.7 per cent. The figure for Wales is Gentleman will know that I am almost invariably an 8.6 per cent. enthusiast for the maximum debate. He will also know, on the strength of his 39 years and eight months of Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): The Deputy service in the House, that these are matters for the First Minister of Wales, Ieuan Wyn Jones, has said that Government; the timetable is a matter for the Government there is “no room for complacency” on unemployment and I cannot interfere with it. Moreover, I think it is fair figures. The Secretary of State refers to other parts of to say, as the Leader of the House has done—it is the world, but is it not a fact that the unemployment important that people outside are conscious of this—that rate in other parts of the United Kingdom is 7.9 per there has been a very substantial debate on these matters. cent., which should be compared with the 8.6 per cent. Certainly, the amendments that were on Monday’s Order rate in Wales that he has mentioned? Thus, the comparison Paper regularly featured in the speeches and interventions also needs to be made with what is happening within made in the debate of that day. I do not have the figures the United Kingdom; we should not just make the in front of me, but it is my recollection that more than comparison with other parts of the world. 20 Members made speeches, and a further 10 or more Members intervened—in some cases quite frequently— Mr. Hain: I am very happy to make the comparison during the debate. So the debate was very well attended with other parts of the United Kingdom. As I shall and there were many contributions to it. It would describe later, if we were to examine Wales’s performance always be good to have more time, but I am not sure now compared with what happened during the recessions that I can offer any, and there will be an hour and a half of the 1980s and 1990s under the previous Conservative on Thursday. If the hon. Gentleman is still dissatisfied, Government, when the recessions were not nearly as he can put in a plea to the Leader of the House or bad as this recession either within the UK or across the through the usual channels, but I am not sure that I can globe, we would find that we have done far better on offer anything further. employment and unemployment. 469 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 470

Mark Pritchard rose— Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): The Secretary of State has tried to make some reassuring Mr. Hain: I shall come to those points in due course. remarks about the size of our deficit. Our deficit is Our Government and the Welsh Assembly Government £178 billion—it is even bigger than Greece’s, yet I saw have painstakingly secured a strong Welsh economic that the Prime Minister was trying to lecture the platform to build for the future. Until Spring 2008, Government of Greece about fiscal responsibility. There Britain experienced an unprecedented period of continuous is nothing reassuring and no reason to be complacent growth for more than 11 years under our Government, about the size of the UK’s deficit—it is a disaster for the which saw the United Kingdom’s gross domestic product country. grow by more than 32 per cent. since we came to power in 1997. However, the global financial implosion that Mr. Hain: Nobody, let alone members of the Cabinet, followed has hit that enormous achievement for six, and such as myself, is being complacent. My point is that if the Government have had to respond, not by downing we are that concerned—as we all, including the hon. tools as Conservatives did in the 1980s and 1990s to Gentleman, ought to be—about the size of the deficit, disastrous effect in Wales, but by active intervention to why would we make it worse? That is what the Tory fill the gap left by the collapse in private sector activity policies over the past year would have done and what and investment. Tory policies over the coming year would do. If a Fair-minded people now accept that our Government Government closed down many more businesses and made the right choices. We saved the banking system, gave many more people the sack—that is what the on which every business and household in this country Tories would be doing—the deficit would grow higher. depends—the Tories opposed that action, just as they Everybody understands that; it is schoolboy and schoolgirl opposed the fiscal stimulus package, which, among economics. That would be a consequence of Tory policies. other things, has delivered a £1 billion future jobs fund. That has already created more than 9,900 job opportunities Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): for young people across Wales, stopping them from While the right hon. Gentleman is painting such a rosy being thrown on to the scrap heap as happened under picture of Labour’s time in office, could he explain why the Tories in the 1980s and 1990s with most never to 200,000 children in Wales still live in poverty—as measured work again. before and after housing costs in the Department for The stimulus package has also delivered the car scrappage Work and Pensions report, “Households Below Average scheme. More than 347,000 orders have been taken Income 2007-08”? Can he also explain why Save the since the start of the scheme, 17,350 of those in Wales, Children claimed last month that 96,000 children in thus protecting jobs and companies in the automotive Wales are living in severe poverty under his Government? sector. It has also delivered the business support schemes, such as the time to pay arrangements, under which more than 11,100 businesses have deferred nearly Mr. Hain: It was because we are concerned about the £155 million of business taxes in Wales alone. That numbers on poverty that we set a target for abolishing comes as a result of the action that we have taken as a child poverty just as soon as we can. What I cannot Government—it is all action opposed by the Conservatives. understand is how the hon. Lady’s policies for cutting child tax credits and child trust funds will help with the Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): May I put on well-being of children in Wales. After a period of disastrous record my gratitude to the Secretary of State and his increases in pensioner poverty, child poverty and poverty fellow Ministers for the help that they have provided, across the board in Wales under the Conservative first in securing Regal Fayre, which is a new company in Government whom she supported, we have reduced the the town of Montgomery, and secondly, in helping to level of poverty for pensioners and children in Wales. save 180 jobs in the Shop Direct call centre in Newtown? It is my opinion that the Government’s assistance directly Mark Pritchard: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy contributed in a positive way to saving those jobs, and I Speaker. [HON.MEMBERS: “A point of order?”] I know am grateful for the assistance that he has personally that this seems odd, because I do not raise many points provided. of order. However, it is an important matter for the historical record when a Secretary of State of Her Mr. Hain: It is not often that we get thanked from Majesty’s Government comes to the Dispatch Box and across the Floor of the House, so I am grateful to the says something that is completely inaccurate. He claimed hon. Gentleman for those thanks. He has worked tirelessly that a Conservative Government would— on behalf of his constituents and has properly represented them to the Government, and we have been able to help Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. in the way that he has described. I am very pleased for the local work force that that is the case. We have given real support—real help for real people— Mark Pritchard: He claimed that they would abolish requiring rises in public investment without which the child— Government deficit would be even higher. The irony of the Tories’ opposition to our recent public investment Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. What is a point of order programmes is that the very Government deficit they is that when the occupant of the Chair rises any other complain about would have been even higher had we hon. Member should resume their seat. Perhaps the taken their approach, because there would have been hon. Gentleman is wise to be sparing in his points of more unemployment and greater borrowing to finance order, if he thinks that that constituted one—it is more people who would have been on the dole instead of in a matter for debate. He has said something on the work, earning incomes and paying their taxes. record; he must be satisfied. 471 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 472

Mr. Hain: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman It is not good enough for the Secretary of State to say rose, because it is a matter of record what the Tory one thing in this place and another outside. Will he get party’s policies are on child trust funds, child tax credits his stories right? I believe that he said on BBC Wales and other such matters. The Tories were wrong on the online on 22 April last year that if efficiency savings had recession, and they are wrong on the recovery. Their been made plans for early and savage public investment cuts would “earlier on at a time of rising spending…I think” choke off the recovery.They have no plans for growth—they we have only a plan for austerity. “would have been in a better position to move forward.” Our Labour Government investment has ensured Which is it? Has his Administration messed up or does that, despite the worst global economic recession in this wonderful picture that he is trying to paint for us more than 80 years, we have avoided the spectre of now show what has happened? While I am on my feet, industrial decline, long-term unemployment and run-down let me mention that he said in The Western Mail that public services—those are the kind of problems that characterising the situation as a case of Welsh people lived through to such terrible effect in the “‘nice’ Labour reductions in public spending” 1980s and 1990s. versus “‘nasty’ Tory cutbacks would be a mistake”. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): This September, my That is a mistake that he is making now. wife and I will be celebrating our 27th anniversary. In the 1980s, we bought our first house and interest rates Mr. Hain: The planned Tory cutbacks would be nasty were 13 per cent. Mortgage rates varied in the ’80s and in their effect on Wales. ’90s between 13 and 17 per cent., and house repossessions The difference between a Tory Government and this were at a record high. Is not the big distinction that the Labour Government is as I have just described: inflation rate is 3.5 per cent. now, not 13.5 per cent.? repossessions are relatively low; average house prices That lower rate not only helps couples to stay in their are higher; average household income has risen; homes, but helps small businesses and the economy to unemployment is lower; and the rate of business failures recover. is much lower than it was during the home-grown, Tory-induced recessions of the early 1990s and early Mr. Hain: First, may I congratulate my hon. Friend 1980s, which were unlike the global recession from on an excellent 27 years of marriage? He is right to say which we have suffered in recent times. That is the that many people like him who bought their first house difference between a Tory Government and this Labour in the late 1980s were immediately plunged into negative Government. A Tory Government leave people on their equity as a result of the disastrous policies of the then own, and a Labour Government are on those people’s Conservative Government. As I have said, our Labour side. Government investment has ensured that we have avoided the worst consequences of this recession and that Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): On the subject of employment levels and other indicators are better than business collapse, does the Secretary of State appreciate they were in the 1980s and 1990s. what has happened in the petrol filling station arena? More than 111 petrol filling stations have closed in the Our record speaks for itself— past five years as a direct result of what the Labour Administrations here and in the Assembly intend to Mrs. Gillan rose— introduce with the business rates revaluations. Increases without any transitional relief, such as that in England, Mr. Hain: May I finish this point? Our record speaks are putting at risk the remaining 572 petrol stations in for itself. There are still 95,000 more people in work in Wales, of which 206 are in rural areas. One of those is Wales than when Labour came into office in 1997. facing an increase in business rates of 725 per cent. Long-term unemployment in Wales is more than 55 per How does he expect that business to survive that kind of cent lower than it was in 1997, despite the recession. It is increase? almost 70 per cent lower than it was at the height of the last home-grown recession in the 1990s. Average house Mr. Hain: I know that there is concern about business prices in Wales are more than 140 per cent. higher than rates and the changes in Wales, but 60 per cent. of they were when we came to power in 1997. Repossessions businesses benefit from those changes according to the in Wales are 39 per cent lower than they were in 1991. Welsh Assembly Government. The reasons for petrol The average household has nearly £5,000 more disposable station closures are much broader than the hon. Gentleman income now than in 1997 and gross value added per suggests, and not least among them are the extremely head in Wales has risen by 49 per cent. since 1997. In the cheap prices from supermarkets. To my regret—as a early 1990s recession, many more businesses failed in result of market forces, not of action by this Government— Wales, with the company liquidation rate two and half they are forcing too many local petrol stations to close. times higher than the current rate. On that high note, I Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): give way to the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham The Secretary of State claims credit for his Government (Mrs. Gillan). for the fact that this recession is not as acute and difficult as the last one. Individuals have made a Mrs. Gillan: I am grateful to the Secretary of State contribution, too, by working part time and by cutting for giving way, because it gives me the opportunity to their hours. There has been a huge amount of suffering congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert as a result of the recession, but individuals have played Owen) and his wife on 27 years of happy marriage. their part in helping. I am sure that the Secretary of Many congratulations to them. State wants to congratulate them on that. 473 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 474

Mr. Hain: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for I understand his reasons for that? This will be his last giving me the opportunity to do so. I was openly Welsh affairs debate. I agree with him absolutely. A little arguing that the recession has been very tough for while ago, I made a speech in the House in which I said people; I said that right at the beginning. Individuals that we had to strengthen our private sector and could have made sacrifices such as working fewer hours and, not rely on the public sector to the extent that we had. as a result, having lower earnings, and that has helped However, that requires new investment to support the us to get through this terrible recession, which has been new industries and businesses of the future and to a worldwide recession, in better shape than we would unleash the entrepreneurial spirit and innovation that have been—this is my point—if we had followed the we need, particularly in low-carbon industries and the policies of the Conservative Opposition. Had they been digital economy. That requires Government support—it in government, everybody in Wales would have been far does not happen on its own. Individual entrepreneurs worse off. That is indisputable. and small businesses need to grow with Government backing, not to have that support stripped away from Mark Pritchard: Will the Secretary of State give way? under their feet so that they are unable to deliver what they are capable of. Mr. Hain: I shall take one final point from the hon. Gentleman. Mrs. Gillan: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Mark Pritchard: I am grateful to the Secretary of State, who is being very generous in giving way. I think Mr. Hain: I think I need to make a bit of progress. that I might be the only person in the House who has worked in a petrol filling station—Cymmer Afan petrol Mrs. Gillan: One more time? station in Cymmer, where I used to live in Wales. Cymmer Afan petrol station had been there for years Mr. Hain: Okay. and was run by a wonderful family, but it closed down just before Christmas. I am shocked by the Secretary of Mrs. Gillan: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman State—I know that he has been busy celebrating his for giving way, but I want to give him the opportunity to 60th birthday this week, but he should not forget that set the record straight. I believe that I heard him say unemployment is not low in Wales, but high at 8.6 per earlier that fewer companies have gone to the wall in cent. Forgive me, but I believe that the Secretary of Labour’s recession. I understand that more companies State’s complacency is breathtaking. have gone bust in Labour’s recession than in any other recession since records began. There were 26,978 corporate Mr. Hain: The hon. Gentleman will find in the official compulsory liquidations and company voluntary record, as everyone else in the House will have noticed, arrangements. That information comes from the Office that I quoted that figure of 8.6 per cent. earlier in my for National Statistics time series and the Insolvency speech. My point was not that it was not of concern—of Service’s “Company liquidations in England and Wales course it is. I represent a Welsh constituency where 1960 to present”. Will he confirm that he did not make people have lost their jobs. My point is that without an error when he said that he felt that fewer companies Government action and that if we had followed the had gone bust in this recession? I think that these Conservative prescription, which he supports, of cutting statistics prove that he was wrong in this instance. public investment— Mr. Hain: What I said—I shall read again to the hon. Mark Pritchard indicated dissent. Lady from my speech—was that in the early 1990s recession, many more businesses failed in Wales, with Mr. Hain: That is what the Conservatives have said. the company liquidation rate two and half times higher They have said that we spent too much money on than the current rate. That is my point—not that the business support, job support programmes and so on current rate of liquidations is acceptable or that any over the past year. If we had taken that course, those business failure is acceptable. Things were relatively far problems would have been far worse. worse in the 1980s and 1990s, and specifically in the 1990s in that respect. Dr. Kim Howells (Pontypridd) (Lab): I thank my right hon. Friend and hope that he can now get on with Our action both in Westminster and in Wales has the substantive part of his speech. He will recall that in delivered real help to individuals, families and businesses the 1980s, after the terrible onslaught on our basic across Wales, and we will continue to do that as the industries, Wales reinvented itself. The industrial areas Welsh economy recovers. To cut off support now, as the of Wales reinvented themselves, and we will do so Conservatives and right-wing commentators propose, again. Will he tell the House something about how the would wreck the recovery. With oil prices rising, Government see the way forward for breaking with the international volatility and the weak eurozone, and enormous dependence on the public sector? If Wales with countries such as Greece and Ireland facing serious does not reinvent itself as a home for entrepreneurs, for crises, we must prevent this fragile recovery from sliding small businesses and for high-technology industries, we back into recession or, even worse, from causing a will miss out on the new generation of industries in the severe, prolonged depression. future. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I know that my Mr. Hain: I cannot agree more with my right hon. right hon. Friend supports the idea, as does the Prime Friend. May I take this opportunity to pay tribute to Minister, of a Robin Hood tax on global financial him for his long service in the House and for his transactions that would spread both benefits and risks excellent record as a Labour Minister and to express my more fairly. Will my right hon. Friend elaborate on his personal disappointment that he is standing down, although support for that tax? 475 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 476

Mr. Hain: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for businesses and trade unions. One of the most telling that question. She is absolutely right to say that I have points that everyone accepts, given the evidence that we supported the Robin Hood tax, as most fair-minded have received, is that local bank managers no longer people have. Indeed, the extent and breadth of support have—and have not had for the past 10 to 15 years—the for it has been interesting. It is now backed by groups autonomy to take certain decisions. That applies even right across the board, from the Salvation Army to though some of them have built up relationships with those such as Friends of the Earth, which we would local businesses, know them and their directors and have expected to support it. That is entirely consistent know the health of the economy. Instead of being able with the Prime Minister’s international leadership in to sign off loans and continue credit arrangements, they seeking to get an international tax on financial transactions, have to pass decisions up the line to someone who sits at not least to provide insurance support to prevent the a computer, feeds material in and then says no. banks from collapsing and having to rely on the public Lembit Öpik: I know that it is not fashionable to do purse in the future. I am glad that my right hon. Friend so, but I have to report two bits of good news. HSBC gave me the opportunity to make those comments. and the Royal Bank of Scotland have recently been The Tories have lost all credibility on the economy. quite helpful during detailed negotiations, but they are First, they promised austerity, until they realised that strapped by the recapitalisation demands on them. that did not play well with their focus groups. Then they Nevertheless, does the Secretary of State agree that had said they would cut the deficit “further and faster”, but the Conservatives been in government at the time and later realised that the sums did not add up. Now they presided over the collapse of the banking system, there have changed tack again and all they will say is that they would have been no prospect whatever of economic will “make a start” on cutting spending. They are recovery? It seems to me that that is what would have making it up as they go along, giving a nod to their happened if they had carried out their promises at the baying right and then a reassuring wink to their worried time. left. They cannot be trusted and they would deliver a decade of austerity and low growth for Wales. They Mr. Hain: Again, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely would cut support to the economy, which would lead to right and speaks the truth. At that really difficult moment higher unemployment, bigger welfare bills and in turn when the whole of the banking system could have to even higher borrowing and debt. They would bury collapsed, after which people would have lost their hope with pessimism and would deliver a decade of savings and much calamity would have resulted, if the austerity rather than the decade of growth that we plan. disastrous policies that the Conservatives advocated In January, Britain emerged from the toughest recession had been followed, they would have made things much since the 1930s. The growth figure, although modest, worse, whereas people accept that our policies have combined with the good news that unemployment in delivered results. Wales fell for the first time since the recession began, As I have said, it will not be easy to emerge from means that we can be cautiously—I stress cautiously— recession. We need to lock in the economic recovery, but optimistic. But things will not be easy; our priority now finance from the banks is still a major problem. That is is to lock in the economic recovery. Access to finance why we have committed another £500 million to the from banks is still a major problem for too many enterprise finance guarantee scheme, thereby enabling businesses, especially small ones. I heard yesterday from more businesses to access it. Currently, more than representatives of small businesses in Cardigan whom £33 million of loans have been offered to nearly the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams) brought 430 companies in Wales. Again, that support would be to see me with the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire cut by the Conservatives. (Lembit Öpik). Those businesses are having difficulties Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): While the Secretary with the banks. Far too many businesses are unable to of State is in a happy and optimistic mood, will he tell get loans from banks at rates that they can afford. The us whether he is happy with the bonuses being paid by banks are charging small businesses ridiculously high RBS? I think that the figure announced this morning rates of interest, as the hon. Member for Ceredigion was £1.3 billion. Is he sanguine about that? explained to me. Mr. Hain: I think that bankers have made themselves Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I even more unpopular than politicians in recent times, appreciate the Secretary of State’s comments on this and that is saying something. I do not like that level of issue. We are all struggling with businesses that are bonuses. The chief executive of RBS has said that he is unable to get reasonable credit, but was not the right not taking a bonus. Obviously, the high bonuses for time for the good Lord Myners to impose certain high earners have been restricted in all sorts of ways as a conditions in that regard when the deal was struck and result of Government intervention, but the banks need the money was put into the banks? to explain to the public, whose money has bailed them Mr. Hain: We have been pressing the banks. We have out, how they can possibly justify those very large done so since the beginning and during negotiations bonuses. They need to give those explanations to the that led to the support, without which the whole banking citizens of—in this case—Wales. system would have collapsed. We have stressed that the On the banks, how can anyone take the Tories seriously priority is for the banks to get the money out into the when they say that they will cut the deficit further and real economy. They have spent most of the time faster, now that they are planning practically to give recapitalising themselves. As the hon. Gentleman has away bank shares? Their deficit reduction plan is a total raised this point, let me report briefly on the past couple farce. As for shares in the banks, the public rightly of economic summits that have been convened by the demand that we should focus on getting back their First Minister in Wales with my support and with the money—the £70 billion that was handed to the banks participation of a wide range of groups, including by the Government. We were right to bail the banks out 477 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 478

[Mr. Hain] Mrs. Gillan indicated assent. because we had to save the banking system so that the Mr. Hain: The hon. Lady nods her head in satisfaction. recession did not become a prolonged depression. However, Then, wages of as little as £1.20 an hour were common it should be obvious to everybody that any responsible and legal in our constituencies. That is just £1.38 an Government who are really committed to cutting the hour in today’s prices. So when she tries to say that she deficit and getting those billions of pounds of public cares about families and people struggling to make ends money back must not discount those shares but sell meet, just imagine what it would be like to live on them at a time and in a way that will maximise their £1.38 an hour today, as might have been the case value to the taxpayer. The Conservatives have merely without the minimum wage. offered the people of Wales and the United Kingdom an irresponsible and costly political gimmick. By contrast, Mrs. Gillan: The right hon. Gentleman knows that we have supported businesses and our intervention has that sort of rhetoric is rather cheap, and that I do care avoided unemployment rising as high as many predicted about families and individuals. The minimum wage has it would. Unemployment in Wales has fallen slightly in certainly done a good job in places, but would not a the past two months, but we cannot be complacent; minimum income have been better for families? unemployment may rise again and every job loss is devastating for those concerned. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The hon. Lady did not argue for that. We know that young people across Wales have been hit particularly hard by the recession but we will not Mr. Hain: She certainly did not argue for that. Is she condemn a generation to unemployment like that in the now saying that she was wrong on the minimum wage, 1980s and 1990s. To prevent another generation from just as she has been, and in her current policies continues being lost to work we have extended the young person’s to be, so wrong on so many other things? The Leader of guarantee so that young people receive training and the Opposition said that the minimum wage support after six, rather than 12, months, to ensure they “would send unemployment straight back up”, have the necessary skills for permanent worthwhile employment. That said, youth unemployment in Wales but Labour has delivered a rising minimum wage, and is still a quarter lower than it was at the height of the more people in work than ever before in Wales. early ’90s, and long-term youth unemployment is nearly We also want to take Wales forward as part of a two thirds lower. digital Britain. The Conservatives seem ready to cast aside any broadcaster that dares to compete with Rupert Alongside those measures, we are looking to the Murdoch. We say that sharing a fraction of the BBC’s future. We are not cutting back, but are investing to licence fee—and it is only a tiny fraction— is necessary promote growth in the new industries of the digital, to help make sure that we get diversity of television low-carbon economy that my right hon. Friend the news and strengthen local and national media outlets Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) mentioned earlier. across Wales. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for We have used the strategic investment fund in Wales to Chesham and Amersham is muttering into her cups invest in a £44 million high-performance computing over there, but the Opposition are opposing our support institute—a world-class facility to build a world-class for a new news outlet on Channel 3. Wales. By giving companies in Wales improved access to the latest IT and training, we can ensure that Welsh If the Conservatives get their way and refuse to back businesses are able to compete on a global stage alongside the pilots with the funding from the licence fee that we other world-leading innovators. support, there is a real danger that Channel 3 will no longer have Welsh news, and that “Wales Tonight” and Faster growth means more people going back to the other news programmes that it broadcasts will be work, thus cutting the costs of unemployment and cutting lost. That funding is only a tiny fraction of the licence the deficit. If we had walked by on the other side, fee and, as I say, it is necessary to help make sure that believing that unemployment was a price worth paying, we get diversity of television news and strengthen local then the deficit would be even greater and unemployment and national media outlets across Wales. We want choice rates even higher. That is the reality of a Tory recession. for the many and not, as the Opposition would prefer, We saw it in the 1980s and ‘90s: will they never learn? profits for their rich friends. I say it again: Welsh citizens need a Government who are on their side, not a Government who leave them on Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I am very grateful their own. That is why we celebrate— to my right hon. Friend for giving way and I apologise for interrupting. I asked the nice man sitting on his left, Mr. Crabb: Will the Secretary of State give way? who seems to have an advance copy of my right hon. Friend’s speech, whether he was going to deal with governance. I got the impression that he was not, and I Mr. Hain: I have given way a lot up to now, and I did not want to be disappointed about not intervening want to make some progress. to ask about it. That is why we celebrate, not apologise for, this As an English Member of Parliament I am very 10th anniversary of Labour passing the National Minimum interested in governance, and hope that my right hon. Wage Act 1998. It remains one of this Government’s Friend will address this issue. Ministers with primarily proudest achievements, having benefited millions of English portfolios have taken arbitrary decisions without people. The latest increase in the national minimum consulting their opposite numbers in Belfast, Edinburgh wage has benefited over 50,000 workers in Wales alone. and Cardiff. As Secretary of State for Wales, will he When the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham jealously press the Justice Secretary, who is the custodian voted against the national minimum wage, as she did— of these matters, to ensure that that does not happen? 479 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 480

By way of example, and in conclusion, I refer to the Mr. Hain: What is the hon. Lady suggesting—that arbitrary decision of the Secretary of State for Health paying a UK-wide levy of only 50p extra a month to abrogate and tear up the reciprocal health agreements should encourage residents and businesses to flee our between the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey, without shores wholesale? How would she address the issue? We consulting the Health Ministers in Wales, Edinburgh or get no policies from the Conservatives on these vital Northern Ireland. questions, whereas we have provided a practical and funded route to delivering universal broadband. Mr. Hain: My hon. Friend has got me on that one. I always admire his energy as a parliamentarian, but this Mrs. Gillan: How many pensioners? Government have been an enthusiastic devolver of power. We have devolved more powers than any other Government Mr. Hain: I can take my own mother as an example. in our history, and of course we respect the rights of She is a Welsh pensioner, and is quite happy to pay the Wales, Scotland and Northern, as we do those of the rental. She is on broadband, and emails and texts islands that he mentioned. almost obsessively. I suppose that she is an example of a I cannot for the life of me understand why the hon. modern pensioner in Wales, and I know that she is Member for Chesham and Amersham now opposes the happy to be part of the broadband revolution that the 50p monthly levy on telephone line rentals to finance Conservatives oppose. super-fast broadband everywhere in Wales. How can Under Labour, the Welsh budget has more than she justify all the “not spots” in Wales, and all the doubled from under £7 billion in 1996-97 to nearly households and businesses there—such as those whose £16 billion in 2010-11—a bigger real terms rise than representatives the hon. Member for Ceredigion brought ever in Wales’s history. The Welsh Assembly Government to see me yesterday—that are now unable to get broadband? have opened nine new hospitals, and of course introduced How can she justify them falling even further behind free prescriptions. That policy is now under threat from while the rest of Britain forges ahead? the Tories, but it particularly benefits those people on Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): low incomes or with chronic illnesses who may not have In response to the question about governance raised by previously been eligible for free prescriptions under the the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), complicated and outdated exemption system. the Secretary of State rightly said that he has been an The Welsh Assembly Government have introduced enthusiastic proponent of devolution. Will he tell the free primary school breakfasts for more than 900 schools House when he intends to reply to the letter written to across Wales—also a policy under threat from the Tories. him by his colleague the First Minister for Wales? Free bus travel for the over-60s and concessionary rates for people with disabilities have also been hugely successful, Mr. Hain: I have replied to that letter, and on Monday with more than 600,000 people benefiting from free I put a copy of the First Minister’s letter and my reply travel. That is also under threat from the Tories. In in the Library of the House of Commons. Westminster, we are passing laws to promote equality, tackle discrimination, help vulnerable people with their Lembit Öpik: On broadband, I am heartened by the energy bills, grant equal treatment for agency workers Government’s apparent commitment to address “not and enshrine in law for the very first time our commitment spots”. Many of my constituents live in such areas, so to abolish child poverty. Those policies were all resisted will he say when they can expect to be connected to by the Tories. That is the role of an active Government broadband? At present, they can do that by satellite, but who care, and that is a programme for a Labour there are some technical limitations to what they can get Government who help the many, not a Tory party that by that means, which is also tremendously expensive. wants to help out only a tiny few. They will be very encouraged if they can get an assurance People in Wales increasingly realise, when they add it that the Government are truly committed to funding all up, that they cannot afford to lose this Labour the arrival of broadband, especially in small towns and Government. The Tories would be a change that we in villages such as Darowen and Staylittle. Wales cannot afford. Instead of proposing tax breaks Mr. Hain: Indeed we are committed to that. It is for millionaires, we are protecting the most vulnerable. precisely to address the future needs of the Welsh On average in 2009-10, as a result of our tax and benefit economy that the Government want businesses and changes, pensioner households will be £1,500 a year residents in the small towns of the kind that he and better off than they would have been if the pre-1997 many of us represent to have access to fast, high-quality system had continued. On average, the poorest third of broadband. We have proposed the levy of 50p a month pensioner households will be £2,100 a year, or £41 a on telephone line rentals to fund that. I cannot give a week, better off than they were under the 1997 system—due time scale, but I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman, to the Government’s tax and benefit changes. especially if he lets my office know which specific areas Our winter fuel payment has risen from £10 under the he is talking about. Tories to £250 for the over-60s, rising to £400 for the over-80s. Again, they are policies offering vital support Mrs. Gillan: Many pensioners—perhaps especially that could well be cut under the Tories’austerity programme. those who live on their own—are not familiar with the Evasive and unfair: that is the Tory attitude to Wales. iPhones and other mobile telephone technology that The shadow Chancellor, through his pay freeze, would both the Secretary of State and indeed I have. Has he on average cut the pay of every nurse and teacher in calculated how many of those pensioners will be paying Wales by about £300 per year—all at a time when those this levy? How many business and call centres will pay at the top would receive the biggest tax breaks. Under it, and would it be better for them to relocate to other the Tories’ initial proposal for the married couple’s places? allowance, for example, the highest earners would receive 481 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 482

[Mr. Hain] rose by one fifth. They are all Labour policies that deliver real help to people in Wales. Wales faces a stark 13 times as much of the benefit as someone at the other choice between securing the economic recovery or wrecking end of the income scale. As soon as that proposal came it; building a fair society where everyone prospers or a under scrutiny, the Tories buckled, being unable to divided society that favours a few; and protecting front-line explain how a mother who was suddenly widowed services or a programme of savage cuts. That is the would become poorer under their married tax allowance choice that people will face in a few weeks’ time. policy. They are trying to make policy with a nod and a Our actions will not be painless, but nor will they be wink. reckless. The recovery is coming now because of the We will reduce the public deficit fairly by halving it action that this Government have taken. However, the within four years. We have always said that we will recovery in Wales is still fragile, and Tory policies threaten ensure that those with the broadest shoulders bear their it. Only Labour can secure the jobs and mortgages of fair share of the burden. Those words have been borne people in Wales; the Tories would be a change that we in out by actions, such as our new 50 per cent. top rate of Wales cannot afford. The red team may be the underdogs, tax, a pay freeze for top civil service earners and a but the blue team are crumbling under pressure, and one-off tax on bankers’ bonuses of £25,000 or more. All momentum is as important in rugby as it is in politics. those measures have been opposed by the Tories. Instead, We will keep going to the final whistle on polling day in they are sticking to their plans to give the 3,000 very order to save Wales from the disaster of a Tory Government. richest people an extra £200,000 each in inheritance tax cuts, while delivering savage public spending cuts and a 1.26 pm pay freeze for public sector workers. Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): We have delivered on our spending review promise May I begin by paying tribute to our Welsh servicemen and increased Welsh funding by £500 million for 2010-11. and women, who so bravely put their lives on the line That is new money, and it would not be going to Wales for our country? I pay particular tribute to the Royal if the Tories had their way. Welch Fusiliers, currently serving in Afghanistan; to the Welsh Guards, who have recently returned; and to all Mr. Crabb: The right hon. Gentleman sits in a Cabinet those Welshmen and women who are serving or have that approved a brutal cut of almost £1 billion to the served in other regiments or services. All hon. Members higher education budget in England, meaning that many know that we owe them an enormous debt of gratitude, thousands of Welsh students who are hoping to study at and it is right that we begin this St. David’s day debate English universities later this year will be told that they by remembering them. do not have a place. Indeed, they will probably go on This is the last St. David’s day debate before the the youth unemployment roll, so has does that benefit general election, as the Secretary of State made perfectly young people in Wales? obvious, so may I take this opportunity to pay tribute, first, to the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), Mr. Hain: We have asked universities to make efficiency whom I had the pleasure of facing in this debate last savings, and I do not think that “a brutal cut” is a year? I always found him to be most courteous in my phrase that any vice-chancellor recognises. Indeed, one dealings with him, and I am glad that he is offering Welsh vice-chancellor told me relatively recently that he himself up for re-election. I also express my best wishes thought that the measure could be easily absorbed to those hon. Members who have announced their without any of the consequences that the hon. Gentleman retirement from the House at the general election. I describes. Interestingly, the number of people applying begin with the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and to and getting into universities has been rising steadily, Dinefwr (Adam Price), who, sadly, is leaving us to go including over the past year. abroad—[Interruption.] It could be education, education, We are in no doubt where the truth lies: the Tories education, but I am sure that we will welcome him back would have an emergency Budget within weeks of entering to the House at some stage. power and leave Wales as the biggest casualty, with Although we have not shared political allegiances, I hard-working Welsh people fighting for their livelihoods. have been honoured to work with the right hon. Member The Tories would make savage and swingeing cuts to for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells), the hon. Members for the public services of Wales, creating a huge rise in Clwyd, South (Mr. Jones) and for Vale of Glamorgan unemployment and a collapse in businesses that supply (John Smith), the right hon. Members for Islwyn the public sector. (Mr. Touhig) and for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams), the So where else would those cuts fall? The Tories cannot Father of the House, and the hon. Member for Conwy deliver what they promise without slashing investment (Mrs. Williams). in Welsh schools and hospitals, Sure Start and large I pay tribute also to the hard work and dedication of projects such as launch aid for the new Airbus planes at the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis). He, as Deeside. Since 1997, and after years of decline in our our Welsh Affairs Committee Chairman, has worked public services, we have invested in our health service, hard in the interests of Wales alongside dedicated schools, infrastructure and police force. People depend Committee members and Clerks. A Committee member on those services being well funded and efficient, and in with whom I have been pleased to work over the past Wales there are almost 7,300 police officers—700 more three years is my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, than in March 1997. West (Mr. Jones). No constituency could have been Health spending in Wales has increased under Labour served better by a Member, and it is a pleasure to work to more than £1,900 per person per year, and that is with him as part of the Opposition’s team Wales. We more than double the 1996-97 Tory figure. GP numbers both hope to be re-elected, because we have great plans have risen by 9 per cent. over the past decade, and for Wales, and we hope to have the opportunity to put nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff numbers them into effect. 483 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 484

Our St. David’s day debate once again takes place 80.3 per cent. in 1997 to 74.3 per cent. in 2008, the worst against a backdrop of turbulent economic times. Since performance of any UK region. Agricultural GVA has last year 21,000 more people are unemployed in Wales, declined shockingly, by 68.1 per cent. since 1997, its 10,000 are economically inactive, Welsh gross value contribution to the Welsh economy falling from 2.2 per added has declined further against the UK as a whole cent. in ’97 to less than 0.5 per cent. in 2007. and the wage gap between Wales and the rest of the UK Manufacturing has stagnated under Labour. Between continues to increase. Before Labour Members think 1997 and 2007, its contribution to the Welsh economy that I am talking Wales down, may I say that it would tumbled from 27.6 to 17.9 per cent. Anglesey Aluminium be hard to do so more eloquently than the Secretary of closed while Labour dithered over energy policy, and State? At our most recent Wales questions he said that 900 jobs have been just been lost at Bosch. Wales was wealthier than Rwanda, and, if any single comment has given us an insight into the Labour Albert Owen: There is a myth perpetuated by the Government’s complacency and paucity of ambition Conservatives that that issue is to do uniquely with for Wales, it was that throwaway remark. energy prices. The hon. Lady visited the Anglesey No, we will not talk Wales down. However, as we Aluminium plant. Does she not accept that the contract enter the run-up to the general election—this time, one was being negotiated when energy prices were high? that not even the Prime Minister can avoid—we need to Those prices have now come down and aluminium take a long, hard look at Labour’s legacy in Wales prices have gone up. Had the company taken the bridging following its 13 years in power, particularly as the loan offered it by the Government, the jobs would have Secretary of State is so keen to bring history into all our been sustained. Anglesey Aluminium took the commercial debates. After more than a decade in charge, there can decision to cease production at Anglesey because it had be no more excuses. Labour’s desperate attempts to operations overseas. blame the Tories simply do not wash any more. Mrs. Gillan: The hon. Gentleman fought hard for Given the struggling Welsh economy, the businesses Anglesey Aluminium, but it is fair to say that the and jobs that have been lost, the industries in decline Government are the only shareholder in Wylfa, the and the lives that have been ruined, and given the waste nuclear power station. If the Government loan was not of money and opportunity and the utter lack of long-term acceptable to the company, many more discussions strategy, it is clear to every voter in Wales that we could have been had at the time. I am so saddened by cannot afford five more years of Labour. the loss of Anglesey Aluminium, particularly as I know The economy, of course, will dominate the election. that the materials that came out of the factory were So many businesses have disappeared from the Welsh excellent and included some of the rarer forms of ingot, scene—Burberry, Hoover, Bosch, Indesit and David including a unique ingot with a hole in the middle McLean, to name but a few. That has left an increasing which could be extruded to make aluminium frames. imbalance between the private and public sectors. The The passing of that manufacturing is a great loss to latest figures show that just under a quarter of people Anglesey and the United Kingdom. working in Wales are employed in the public sector, and it has recently been reported that since 1998, 55 per Mr. Hain: I share the hon. Lady’s regret—deep regret, cent. of new jobs have been either in, or wholly supported in my case—that Anglesey Aluminium closed. As my by, the public sector. As I remember from a speech that hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) he made when taking his sojourn on the Back Benches, knows better than anybody else, we worked tirelessly as even the Secretary of State has admitted that the private a Government on the issue. We put a very generous sector in Wales is too small. offer to Rio Tinto and the other parent company in an Labour, of course, protests that the recession is a attempt to save Anglesey Aluminium. We remain astonished global phenomenon; indeed, that is the Prime Minister’s that it was not accepted. I do not think anybody is favourite phrase. But there can be little doubt that when suggesting that the Government did anything other the storm hit us, we were not best placed to weather it. than go to the furthest possible extent in trying to save Of all the major economies, we were one of the first to the company. enter recession and the last to get out, behind France, Germany and Japan—indeed, behind any G20 country Mrs. Gillan: I, too, met Rio Tinto representatives, that we may care to name. and all I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is that It is fair to say that the Government have lost control there was a lot of dithering at the beginning. Perhaps of the country’s finances. National debt currently stands the offer was too little, too late, or it was not the right at £850 billion and is set to rise to the equivalent of offer and was too late. £23,000 for every single man, woman and child in Nine hundred jobs are being lost at Bosch; that Wales. The blame for that appalling state of affairs can closure, I gather, has been on the cards for a year or be laid only at Labour’s door; after all, it has been in more, but I understand that it took until last month for government for 13 years. Even the Governor of the the Labour-Plaid Welsh Assembly Government to get Bank of England said that we went into the downturn around to holding talks with the company’s management. with levels of debt that were too high, all because the After 13 years, what is Labour’s legacy? then Chancellor—now the Prime Minister—failed to put aside anything in the good years, and borrowed as if Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): Is the hon. there had been no tomorrow. The Prime Minister, who Lady aware of the expansion of private companies in said that he had abolished boom and bust, certainly my constituency? Last week, I visited Pelican Healthcare abolished boom—and left us bust. Ltd and Great Bear Healthcare Ltd, manufacturers of It is clear that Labour has let Wales down. Even medicinal products, on the Llanishen trading estate. A during periods of growth, Welsh gross value added per vast amount of new building is going on; they were head continued to decline against that of the UK, from awaiting the arrival from Italy of machinery costing 485 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 486

[Julie Morgan] decisions to regenerate our economy.We would concentrate benefits spending on the poorest and the most vulnerable, £1.5 million. There is also the big development at Fforest and we would tackle the jobs crisis with a comprehensive Farm and the development of GE Healthcare. The plan to help people into work. picture that she paints is not representative of what I see Hand in hand with this plan are our proposals to in my constituency. support businesses. We would reduce the small company corporation tax rate to 20 per cent. and reduce the Mrs. Gillan: I am absolutely delighted to hear that, headline rate of corporation tax to 25 per cent., reduce particularly as GE Healthcare is headquartered in my the bureaucracy needed to register new companies, constituency. I am thrilled to hear about the new jobs remove restrictions on people in social housing from coming into the hon. Lady’s constituency. Unlike the starting up a business, and abolish for a year the tax on Secretary of State, I really am— the first 10 jobs created by new businesses in the first two years of a Conservative Government. Albert Owen: You didn’t mention the new jobs. However, if we are to build a strong and successful Welsh economy, we need not only to create an environment Mrs. Gillan: I have certainly read about them. However, in which the private sector can flourish but to make I am also concerned about all those who have lost their improvements in the public sector. jobs. Labour’s record and legacy after 13 years in Wales is the loss of nearly 50,000 jobs since 1998. We need Lembit Öpik: Earlier on, the hon. Lady said that she encouragement for the private sector and I thank the was against the minimum wage and in favour of a Secretary of State for joining me in supporting the minimum income. Is that Conservative policy now? proposed developments such as those at Holyhead and Fishguard, which could bring real benefits. Those ports Mrs. Gillan: If the hon. Gentleman had been paying are key employers in Anglesey and Pembrokeshire, and attention, he would know that we were talking about those developments could provide great opportunities events that happened more than 12 years ago. for both areas, building on what I hope will be renewed We would give public sector workers the right to form nuclear generation at Wylfa and the big investments employee-owned co-operatives, giving them responsibility that we have seen in Pembrokeshire, such as the liquefied for their own success, sharing the rewards of a more natural gas terminal. efficient public sector, and letting people take pride in One continuing success story in north Wales is, of the vital services they provide. That is something that course, Airbus. We are close to international women’s the right hon. Gentleman would not think of in a day, which I understand the Secretary of State’s Government million years. The choice will be clear at the next are just about marking this year, and I particularly want election: five more years of Labour debt, bureaucracy to congratulate the new apprentice of the year, Beth and central control, or a new, energetic and revitalised Pickering, whom David Cameron and I met during our agenda for our economy and for both the public and visit to Broughton last year. It is good to see another private sectors from the Conservatives. woman moving forward in the business world, particularly in manufacturing. Mr. Roger Williams: Will the hon. Lady give way? Wales, too, needs to move forward. I want businesses to grow, inward investment to increase, more people in Mrs. Gillan: I am going to make some progress. Wales to work and our economy to be revitalised. A The relationship between the Government in Whitehall Conservative Government will offer the fresh approach and the Welsh Assembly Government is of paramount and new direction that is needed. First, we will tackle importance. Approaches in Whitehall differ from those the debt and set out clear plans to reduce the deficit. in Cardiff, but it is crucial to the success of devolution, That is not an alternative to growth; it is essential to it. and to the success of Wales, that politicians understand the need to work together. As the First Minister recently Albert Owen: The hon. Lady made the important acknowledged when appearing before the Select Committee point that any future Conservative Government would on Welsh Affairs, a relationship of mutual respect and help business. Is she suggesting that a Government of good will is absolutely essential, and that works both hers would have put in real cash to help Bosch and ways. Anglesey Aluminium, or is she just having a go at the It was obvious to me that the Secretary of State had incumbent Governments here and in Cardiff? an enormous hole in his speech. He spent most of his time attacking the Tories, but he could not give us any Mrs. Gillan: I am not going to look backwards at meaningful information about the referendum that the hypothetical questions, because I have had to listen to hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr asked nearly an hour of hypothetical rubbish from the Secretary about. Does the Secretary of State want to intervene to of State. Most of the rubbish that he was spouting tell me what his plans are for consultation and set out about what may or may not happen, and what Tory the timing on replying and acceding to the relevant policy is, was from “Fantasy Island”. parts of the Government of Wales Act 1998? He could We have already outlined some of the steps we would then tell us the details of the consultation and when he take. We would freeze public sector pay for all but the expects to be in a position to send a response. lowest paid 1 million and cut the cost of Whitehall by a third. I see no volunteering for cutting at Whitehall Mr. Hain: As I explained, I have placed the letters in from the Labour party. We would cap large public the Library, and they are very clear that my officials sector pensions. Yes, that would be tough, but Labour will, under my instructions, make the necessary preparations has made it tough, and someone has to take some tough requested by the First Minister. 487 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 488

Mrs. Gillan: I have read those letters, and they are the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr pretty thin on the ground—they say absolutely nothing. (Adam Price) and some of my right hon. and hon. I am asking for a detailed timetable for the consultation Friends. We will be particularly saddened by the loss of on this. Is there one? my right hon. Friends the Members for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) and for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells), to whom this House, Mr. Hain: The hon. Lady knows what the Government the Government and the people of Wales owe a great of Wales Act stipulates, I assume, and my officials are debt. I shall personally be very saddened by that. working towards that timetable. As an aside, my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) raised with my right hon. Friend Mrs. Gillan: There we have it—answer came there the Secretary of State the issue of the Isle of Man. In none. County Cavan this week, the British-Irish Inter- A Conservative Secretary of State for Wales would Parliamentary Body met to discuss that matter, particularly make herself, or himself, available to answer questions with regard to the Minister for Health and Social Services in the Assembly on a regular basis, and a Conservative in Wales. I have written to my right hon. Friend about Prime Minister would do the same. Of course, we would this. also look forward to welcoming any Welsh Assembly The world has, of course, changed. My own constituency Government Ministers here, as we have in the past, to has changed over the past couple of years, particularly exchange views on matters affecting Wales. Our approach in the past dozen to 18 months, because of the recession. recognises that the devolutionary settlement is such that I do not think that any Member of Parliament representing Cardiff and Whitehall cannot continue to operate in a Welsh constituency, or indeed a British constituency, silos. The scandalous waste of public money over, for could say otherwise. However, there is a world of difference example, the Red Dragon hangar shows just how Labour between the arguments about why that recession has has failed in this regard. occurred. I do not believe for one second that the The choice at the next election will be between a difficulties we face are the result of what a Labour party whose leader respects devolution, has visited Wales Government have done between 1997 and now. Of innumerable times, and wants co-operation in the interests course, there may be differences of view about how of Welsh families, Welsh jobs and Welsh businesses, and economic policy should have been structured, but the a party whose leader has hardly come to Wales at all idea that the international and national banks did not and thought so little of the country that he gave the cause the recession that we are now in will be central to portfolio to the Secretary of State as his job on the side. the forthcoming general election. The central lie that is often told about the role of the banks needs to be Wales has a distinct character and distinct needs, but addressed in the election campaign. it is firmly part of the United Kingdom. More than 25 per cent. of the population of the whole of Great If I look at my constituency now, in 2010, compared Britain live within 50 miles of the border between with how I remember it in 1996-97, I see that it is a very England and Wales, tens of millions of tonnes of freight different place, despite what has occurred over the past are transported across it each year, and thousands of dozen to 18 months. I look, for example, at how our people cross one way or the other for work and pleasure older people are treated compared with how they were every day. Policies of separatism such as those of Plaid treated in the years before 1997. I look at the ability of Cymru wholly fail to recognise that and would only our older people to travel the length and breadth of damage Wales and its economy further—and Labour Wales as a result of the Labour Welsh Assembly are Plaid’s partners in Cardiff. Government’s introduction of the travelcard, which, happily, I now possess. The fact that older people are Conservatives would offer a fresh approach from a better off is just one example. There is also the winter leader to whom Wales is as important as every other fuel allowance and the help that the Government have part of the United Kingdom and a party that will put brought in for those in Wales who were desperately economic recovery, job creation and people’s aspirations poor. The life of a pensioner in the towns and villages in at the top of the agenda. The choice will be clear: five my constituency is infinitely better than it was 14 or more years of Gordon Brown or the change Wales needs. 15 years ago. Let us hope that when we meet for St. David’s day debates in years to come, it is not on a tide of rising unemployment, We can also look at how our schools have flourished. increasing state interference and bureaucracy and economic It is not simply that we have more and better schools, misery, but against the background of a growing Welsh and more teachers: our schools have grasped technology economy that is stable, resilient, optimistic and successful through the use of computers and the internet. My under a Conservative Government: a strong Wales in a local education authority is leading the way in Wales. strong United Kingdom. Dydd Gwyl Dewi hapus for My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently next Monday, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and diolch. went to Cwmbran and saw how the internet is used by our pupils. There has been a transformation in Welsh education. 1.46 pm There are more hospitals and more police than ever Mr. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I have been trying before. That transformation is a direct consequence of to work out the first time that I spoke in a Welsh affairs the actions of the Labour Government, the Assembly debate. I think that it was 22 years ago, and obviously and Welsh local authorities. from the opposite side of this Chamber. I am grateful Of course, there have been difficulties with jobs, but for, and echo, the comments of the hon. Member for can anyone honestly say that the number of jobs that Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) about those have been created over the past decade is not infinitely colleagues of ours—Welsh Members of Parliament—who better than what happened the decade before that? We are to leave us when the election is called. They include should bear in mind what has happened in my constituency 489 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 490

[Mr. Paul Murphy] troops. I am glad that the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham referred to the fact that our Welsh over a quarter of a century. When I came into the troops in Afghanistan are fighting hard. They deserve House in 1987, people relied for their income on the the support they get from both sides of the House. steel and coal industries—heavy industry.My constituency Before I conclude, I should like to speak about the suffered the loss of some 10,000 to 15,000 jobs in a M4. The M4 is the lifeline of south Wales and in many 10-to-15-year period, but all of them were replaced. respects, the south of England. In the past dozen or The unemployment rate before this recession hit us was more years, we have spent a great deal of money on our lower than since records began. Although all those jobs transport systems and infrastructure in Wales and England. were lost, jobs in the retail sector and the new industries, However, post-devolution, I sometimes doubt the wisdom such as technology, engineering and the food industry, of the co-ordination between the UK Department for all came to my constituency, and our young men and Transport and the Welsh Department for the Economy women were employed in greater numbers than ever. and Transport when it comes to dealing with our Had we not created those jobs and had the Conservatives motorways. been in power, this recession would have hit Wales much harder. Wales has been transformed because of Labour To certain extent, it could be argued that the M4 has government, and our constituencies have been transformed. ceased to be a motorway, because at least 20 miles of That is the message that we must put forward when we it—a very important stretch and an economic lifeline fight the election in days to come. for south Wales—between Newport and London is now subject to major roadworks and 50 mph limits. Indeed, The other thing that my right hon. Friend the Secretary the whole motorway structure of our first city, Cardiff, of State rightly emphasised is that the difference between and of Newport, is now almost under construction. I this recession and the recessions we had before 1997 is wonder about the co-ordination between the UK that the Government, in conjunction with the Assembly Government and the Welsh Assembly Government on Government and local authorities, have done something that. Travel is costly to business and difficult for the about it. Let me give just a few examples from my economy in these times. It now takes me at least an hour constituency. Following the Government tax deferral longer to drive to London than it did 21 years ago. It is policy, 310 businesses in Torfaen deferred tax amounting very important that my right hon. Friend the Secretary to £6 million. The redundancy action scheme in Torfaen of State liaises with the Secretary of State for Transport has helped 320 people, and seven companies that were to see what can be done. in considerable difficulty have been helped by the ProAct scheme, which is widely admired beyond the shores of Lembit Öpik: The right hon. Gentleman will be aware our country. that we have not so much as a dual carriageway in The enormous contribution that the Labour Government Montgomeryshire at the moment, and that the problems have made in the past decade and what is on offer from are compounded by the apparent obsession with 50 mph the Conservatives reflect the stark choice to which my speed limits in open areas. Does he agree that when the right hon. Friend the Secretary of State referred. If we Secretary of State for Wales considers the issue of the thought for one second that—even in this recession—there M4, it might be useful if we can finally have a more are not companies in our constituencies that are being strategic approach to connecting north, south and mid- imaginative, greatly innovative and aspirational, we would Wales by road? That is decades overdue. be wrong. I shall give just one example. LS Design in Cwmbran in my constituency is a small high-tech company Mr. Murphy: That is a very important aspiration. that employs local people in high-quality jobs. It is very However, given that the great bulk of the population of much involved with General Dynamics, which my right south Wales is affected by those restrictions, there is a hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn played a great role greater impact on local commerce and business. That in bringing to our south Wales valleys and his constituency. point needs to be addressed. It would be significant for LS Design if my right hon. Friend That was a minor gripe compared with the benefits the Secretary of State for Wales could tell my right hon. that the people whom I represent—who I hope will Friend the Defence Secretary of the importance—in re-elect me—have accrued as a consequence of having a terms not only of the defence of our nation, but of the compassionate and caring Government for the past defence of jobs in Wales—of the future rapid effect 12 years. I believe that the only answer to the economic system programme. LS Design is linked to General ills caused by the banking recession is investment and Dynamics. Were the FRES programme to be awarded renewal. Given that the Conservatives are promising an to the latter, as I hope it will be, the former company’s age of austerity, such investment and renewal is conceivable picture would be much brighter. I understand that it only with the election of the Labour Government who could employ double the number of people it currently work with a Labour-led Assembly. employs, because it would have doubled the turnover. That is one example of how we can ensure that investment comes to companies in our Welsh constituencies. 1.59 pm If the FRES programme goes ahead, there will be a Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): significant impact in that it will ensure that our troops As always, it is a pleasure and a privilege to follow the in Afghanistan will be better protected than they are at right hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), to whom the moment. In that regard, I should like to mention I pay tribute for the friendliness and support he offered Trooper James Prosser of The Royal Welsh Regiment, in his two tenures as Secretary of State for Wales. He who was killed in Afghanistan last year. His mother, visited my constituency at the depth of the current Sarah Adams, has been a doughty champion and fighter recession to meet small business owners who were struggling for the rights of our troops there, particularly Welsh and gave them assistance and encouragement. 491 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 492

I am pleased to say that all the small businesses that attainment in Wales are not very encouraging and can attended that meeting are still in business, which is a be put down to the lower investment in Wales than in tribute not only to the people who run those businesses England. and those who work in them, but to the support that I am sure that we all welcome the unanimous vote in they received. One of those businesses is struggling at the Welsh Assembly on the referendum on additional the moment, but its customers are very keen that it powers. I ask the Secretary of State to ensure that the continues to operate, and we are hopeful that that will necessary steps are taken to set a date for that referendum be the case. before the dissolution of Parliament. I listened to the It is a pleasure to speak in this St. David’s day debate. Conservative point of view on this matter, but it was not As it is the last one before the general election, I pay clear whether that procedure would be put in place tribute to all right hon. and hon. Members from Wales. under a Conservative Government. We did not hear any I have been able to agree with some of them—but not confirmation, but it is strange that the Conservatives in others—from time to time, but I know that all their Westminster and in the Assembly oppose the housing energies and enthusiasm are directed towards the well-being legislative competence order, given that they voted of Wales. I thank them, because we are able to get unanimously in favour of the referendum. The leader of together and share solutions, and shared solutions are the Conservative group in the Welsh Assembly is not the best way to make progress. the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, who is in favour of a transfer of further powers, including powers over I also thank the shadow Secretary of State for her housing. It seems hardly logical to oppose the transfer tribute to the young Welsh men and women who have of powers through the LCO, but to support the transfer served in our forces abroad, not only in the Welsh of powers as a whole through the referendum. regiments and the Welsh Guards, but in the special forces—especially those from my constituency—who Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): Is the hon. are sometimes forgotten because of the difficult nature Gentleman aware that the opposition of the Conservatives of the work that they undertake. Despite my constituency on the Select Committee was founded on evidence, being land-locked, some young people have also served which both the Under-Secretary and the Welsh deputy in the Marines in Afghanistan and Iraq. Housing Minister confirmed, that there is no policy This is probably the last occasion before the election objective to abolish the right to buy. That being the on which we will concentrate on Welsh affairs, other case, it was wholly illogical to apply for powers that than Welsh questions, which I anticipate will take place include the power to abolish the right to buy. before then, although we cannot be entirely sure of that. Although I generally enjoy contributions from the Mr. Williams: That is a strange and illogical argument, Secretary of State and his shadow, I thought that today because if powers were transferred to the Welsh Assembly, they gave rather dispiriting performances which showed they would include the powers that the hon. Gentleman that a general election is probably overdue. The arguments mentions. have been made so many times, and as I go around my constituency and the rest of Wales, I get the impression Mr. Hain: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will that people have made their minds up and want a agree that any proper reading of the legislative competence general election as soon as possible. A new mandate is order shows that it would transfer powers to the Welsh needed to rejuvenate and freshen this place. I shall talk Assembly Government to undertake the huge task of about several disappointments, not to try to cast blame improving the range of affordable and available housing or aspersions, but in the hope that when we have a new in Wales and dealing with homelessness. That is why it Parliament and Government some of these issues will has the support of Shelter Cymru and other organisations. be revisited and a better conclusion will be reached for There is no abolition of the right to buy. There is the the people of Wales. option of a mechanism to address the lack of affordable In the past, the Barnett formula was considered boring rural housing, but it would be used in very restricted and of little importance, but it is now becoming a much circumstances in rural areas such as Pembrokeshire and more important political consideration. However, after Gwynedd. But the fundamental question is why the 13 years of Labour Government in Westminster and Conservatives are opposing powers being taken by the almost 11 in Cardiff, the Welsh population are really Assembly in an area—housing—where it already has struggling for finance to address the needs of the nation. responsibility, but wants a little more flexibility to be The concept of the Barnett squeeze is well understood able to carry out the tasks before it. now, and although I appreciate that it will probably be of less importance given the likelihood of lower public Mr. Williams: I agree with the Secretary of State— expenditure, that is no reason to leave it unaddressed. When I look at statistics on health needs in Wales, it is Mrs. Gillan: Read the Select Committee evidence. clear that a formula that is based on population and not on need is unfair not only to Wales but to other regions across the UK. The case that I make for a reform of the Mr. Williams: I will read it, but it is incredible to Barnett formula is not a selfish one on behalf of Wales, me—when I became a Member of Parliament in 2001, I but for the whole of the UK and the needs of the did not think that housing would be an especially big people. issue in my area—that almost a third of the people who come to my surgeries do so because they have housing I am concerned, for instance, that the figures appear difficulties. If the Welsh Assembly had more powers to to show that spending on education in Wales is £500 less address those issues in my constituency—and others—it per pupil than in England. The figures for educational would be very welcome. 493 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 494

Lembit Öpik: I agree with my hon. Friend whose move it there. We desperately need flexibility within the constituency is very similar to mine in geography and Post Office to ensure that those novel and innovative social profile. Does he agree that we in Powys really solutions can be achieved. need these powers to be devolved? If the Conservatives To return to housing, it is not surprising that there is carry out their threat to try to resist that, it will run a rural exodus among the Welsh youth, given that counter to everything that he and I have been trying to housing prices are so high. As a result of young people do to address social housing problems and homelessness leaving villages, schools, doctors’ surgeries and other in our constituencies. essential services are closing. It is a Catch-22 situation. Mr. Williams: My hon. Friend makes a very good The Liberal Democrats look forward to the taxation point—it is the point that I am trying to make—but system being reformed to make it much more progressive there is also a point about how illogical it is to try to and less regressive. I am sure that many hon. Members obstruct this progress when it seems that most parties in are dealing with individuals who are trying to get back Wales would like further powers, which would include into employment but who are finding that the loss of those powers anyway. benefits and the kicking-in of income tax at very low rates preclude some of them from re-entering employment, Mr. Hain: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for because they would be financially worse off as a result. giving way again; he is being generous. It would be Our party’s proposals for a personal allowance of £10,000 interesting to hear from the Conservatives, on the record, and taxing people who claim their income in terms of whether they will veto the housing legislative competence capital gains would be a way towards a progressive order in the wash-up negotiations, because they have taxation system. the power to do that—[Interruption.] Yes, says the hon. Rural broadband provision is another area in which Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Jones). I think that I Wales lags behind the rest of the UK, and certainly heard a mutter from a sedentary position. many businesses in my constituency, and across vast swathes of Wales, are single-person operations requiring Mr. David Jones indicated assent. access to modern communications and technology. Mr. Hain: Yes, he says! Well, that is very serious. It I shall turn quickly to agriculture. The Government’s shows the Conservative’s intolerance of devolution and agreement to set up an ombudsman—it has the support of dealing with vital housing needs and shortages in of other parties, too—is a huge step forward for an Wales. agricultural industry that has been hampered by being uncompetitive when supplying the main supermarkets. Mr. Williams: From the Liberal Democrat Benches, I I am pleased that the hon. Member for Ynys Môn certainly cannot answer on behalf of the Conservative (Albert Owen) will soon be taking forward his private party—we will see what happens in the wash-up, which Member’s Bill, and I hope to be there to support him. I will be viewed with great interest by Members of the also hope that the Government can find a way to House and people living in Wales. support it and to work with him to bring a really Employment rates in Wales are the third issue that I effective ombudsman and regulatory system to an area want to touch on. We have argued about whether 8.7 per that has been difficult in the past. cent. unemployment is high, higher or whatever, but my Finally, I turn to a personal, constituency issue. Daniel point is that an unemployed person is 100 per cent. Morgan was murdered in London nearly 23 years ago; unemployed. Sometimes, when we talk about statistics, he was found with an axe in his head in a pub car park. we tend not to address the individual circumstances His mother lives in my constituency. When Daniel was that desperately affect people’s lives. Anything that we murdered, she was rung at 4 o’clock in the morning and and the Government can do to improve employment is told that her son was dead, but the policeperson making obviously hugely important. Yet we have had enormous the phone call was unable to give any other details, closures, sometimes in traditional industries, such as the except to say that she would have to come to London to steel industry in Wales, and the signs for employment find them out. That was at 4 o’clock in the morning. and manufacturing in Wales—I have seen figures on She was living on her own and did not know how to get manufacturing employment in Wales—are not encouraging. to London. I am pleased to say that she and her other On some of the rural issues, we have campaigned son, Alistair, have ensured that Daniel’s case has never long and hard for a rural fuel duty rebate. That has been stopped being looked at, and I, and my predecessor, taken up by other countries in the European Union, Richard Livsey, have been taking it forward for 15 years and it is within the Government’s competence and or more. power to address. Indeed, Italy, France and Greece have Four people are now in custody, awaiting trial for gone down that route. We recently had a debate on that Daniel Morgan’s murder, and we look forward to issue in Westminster Hall, which was led more by Mrs. Hullsman, his mother, having at least some sense Scottish Members than by Welsh Members, but it is an of closure and justice. However, the sad thing is that issue about which both areas feel strongly, and anything Mrs. Hullsman, who is now over 80—she was 59 when that the Secretary of State or Minister can do to intervene she heard that her son had been murdered—thought with the Treasury would be well supported. that the trial was going to take place last September, but In general, rural areas experience reductions in services it is now going to take place this September. The delay from, for instance, post offices. There are now fewer and agony caused to the family by that delay has been than 1,000 post offices in Wales, which I think is a fairly horrific, and if something can be done to speed up the iconic number, and more than 300 have closed recently. judicial system, so that closure can be given to the At the moment, I am trying to find a way to keep a post family, it would be fantastic. Mrs. Hullsman, her son office open in Abercraf, in my constituency—I am Alistair and I will keep campaigning for that, because it working with the miners’ welfare hall, so that we can is an injustice that should be put right. 495 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 496

Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are coming to the end of a without proper consultation of National Union of Parliament. It has not been a happy occasion for Parliament Mineworkers members—had they been properly consulted, as a whole, but I look forward to a new Parliament that it is likely that they would have voted against it—and will be reinvigorated and that will work for the interests that that is what caused a lot of the damage? of Wales. Ann Clwyd: The leaders of the miners’ strike at that 2.18 pm time predicted that the coal mines were going to shut. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I am afraid that They were fighting for their very existence. It was important daffodils are in short supply at the moment. Very few of that they engaged in that fight and drew attention to the us have been able to get the real thing, but some of us fact that those jobs were going to go. The hon. Gentleman have made an attempt and compromised, with at least a knows as well as I do that the Prime Minister at the flash of yellow on our coats. [Interruption.] The hon. time—the leader of his party—was hellbent on bring Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) the miners’ union down, by whatever means, and the must have a good arrangement with the flower lady in miners knew it too. There were criticisms to be made of the House of Commons then. Things are a bit difficult, those leading the miners’ strike, and they were indeed but I hope that in future we will see large bunches of criticised subsequently. Nevertheless, they were right in daffodils brought in for this debate for Dydd Gwyl their interpretation of what was going to happen to Dewi Sant, or St. David’s day. I would also like it to be their industry. held on 1 March, but we never seem to manage that. I would like to reiterate what my right hon. Friend David T. C. Davies rose— the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) said in his speech about how Wales has improved over the years, Ann Clwyd: No, let me continue. I saw the effect of particularly under a Labour Government. I first became being out of work on those people in the Cynon Valley. an elected Member in 1979, when the hon. Member for It was an effect that lasted for many years afterwards, Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams) was in Brecon because they had to borrow money to pay mortgages and Radnorshire, which was in my European constituency. and to live. There were also soup kitchens, which I and I hope that I do not embarrass him, but I was very several of my colleagues here in the Chamber were grateful for his help at that time. We remain good involved in, just to try to feed people who could no friends, even though we are on opposite sides of the longer afford to feed their families. Chamber, and I hope that he might help me in other People who have lived through that kind of situation campaigns some time in the future. realise that much more compassion is now shown towards When I was first elected, as a Euro MP, there were big people who are unemployed, or who might become job changes in steel and coal. I remember the devastating unemployed, and that cushions are in place to assist effect of that, with Llanelli and Swansea being in my them. It is therefore not surprising that people like me, European constituency. I was continually taking groups who have lived through those years, feel that a Labour of steel workers threatened by closure—something Government have done much better by my constituents that ultimately became a fact—to protest in Brussels. I than the previous Tory Government did. I was in opposition also remember the Social Affairs and Employment for 18 years, as a Euro MP and, later, when I came here, Commissioner being aghast that the UK did not seem to so I know the difference. I am sure that most of my have a social policy to cushion the effects of unemployment, constituents still appreciate that difference as well. which was gradually growing in the steel industry. Almost every other country in the European Community at Another thing that has happened in the valleys is that that time had a social policy. We did not, and we were the environment has changed, partly because some of strongly criticised for that by the Commissioner at the the older industries have gone but also because of the time. In fact, when 5,000 comparable steel workers in greater appreciation of the need for a good environment. Germany lost their jobs in the Ruhr, almost every one The Phurnacite plant was in my constituency when I had another job to go to. Unfortunately, that was not was first elected, for example. It had seven large chimneys the case in Wales, or indeed in the rest of the UK. that spewed smoke of different colours into the air. The Fortunately, attitudes are now very different. health of the people living in the area and of those working in the plant was affected by that. Indeed, a test I was then elected to this place in 1984, in the middle case is going through at the moment involving people of the miners’ strike, in a by-election. That was a time who worked at the Phurnacite plant at Abercwmboi. when we did not have to knock on doors, as all the The environment has now changed beyond recognition, people we wanted to canvass were sitting outside their making it a much more pleasant place to live. I am doors, because they were not at work. The effects of the grateful to our Government for making that possible miners’ strike and the lack of either a social policy or and for concentrating a great many resources into improving any compassion towards those miners, who were fighting the environment for the people there. for their jobs, were evident. I took a Conservative colleague to my constituency, at his request, to see the There are many other things that I would like to talk effects of the miners’ strike on the people of the Cynon about. The position of women has also changed in Valley. He came away shocked, and I remember clearly Wales. There are far more women in Parliament now, what he said: “People look different. They look ill. That certainly on this side of the House. I hope that there will is not what the kind of conservatism that I understand be more women on both sides after the next election. It should be all about.” has been a long, hard battle for women, as I know full well, and I was pleased when more women came from David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The right Wales to join me here. I hope that the number of women hon. Lady is making some interesting comments, but MPs from Wales will continue to grow after the election. does she not also accept that the strike was called I should like to pay tribute to my colleagues who are 497 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 498

[Ann Clwyd] the Royal Bank of Scotland, they are to be confined to employees earning less than £39,000 a year, and that the retiring at the election. I thank them for their friendship Prime Minister has indicated through his spokesman and for all that they have given to the House while they today that those bonuses are in line with what he have been here. I will not name them individually, but approves of? they know who I mean. I want to pick up on some of the points raised by the Ann Clwyd: I find it quite amusing to be lectured on Secretary of State for Wales earlier. I have already regulation by a party that has constantly argued against mentioned the Robin Hood tax. The people of my regulation and in favour of deregulation. I cannot take constituency feel strongly about a number of issues at the hon. Gentleman seriously when he makes such a the moment. There is still anger about the role of the point. Instead of making personal points to the Prime banks in the financial crisis, and about the unacceptable Minister, why does he not talk about the economy to levels of pay.The recession that we have been through—and the Prime Minister when he next has the opportunity? that I hope we have now seen the back of—has affected people’s jobs and mortgages, and in all sorts of other Hywel Williams: I was wondering whether the right ways. hon. Lady would refer to the fact that the UK economy The recession was caused—or at least made worse—in is overly dependent on the financial sector, as she pointed part by the global financial crisis. I believe that that was out earlier. However, it was her Government who were caused by the irresponsible practices of global banks in charge at the time when manufacturing in Wales was and financial institutions, and by economies relying too completely decimated and the over-emphasis on the much on that financial sector. As my right hon. Friend financial sector came about. the Secretary of State said, people understand that the collapse of the whole banking sector would have been Ann Clwyd: I had finished my argument on that point disastrous for the economy, and that the Government and did not expect to expand on it further. I just make were right to bail out the banks to prevent that from the point that I am in favour of a Robin Hood tax, and happening. That much they go along with. I would like to hear a response from the Opposition on that. Mr. David Jones: Will the right hon. Lady give way? Lembit Öpik: Does the right hon. Lady share with me Ann Clwyd: Let me just finish my argument, please. a sense of wonderment at the cheek of the Conservative Then I will happily give way. party for criticising the current regulatory system, which, to some extent, allowed the banking collapse, given that What most people think, and what common sense the Conservative Government created that very system? tells us, is that, after all that taxpayers’ money had been used to prop up the banks, the deal was that the banks would look again at how they did things, and that they Ann Clwyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making would start to behave more responsibly. As the Secretary that point. In my original answer, I said that I could not of State said, people do not understand how the Royal take seriously arguments on regulation or deregulation Bank of Scotland—the majority of which is owned by from the Conservative party. the taxpayer—can make a loss, as announced today, and at the same time argue with a straight face that it Hywel Williams: The right hon. Lady asked for a needs to pay substantial bonuses. Last year, I introduced response on what is now called the Robin Hood tax. my own Bankers’ Pensions (Limits) Bill, which would That has been a policy of my party for many years, and have addressed the absurd pension packages being awarded I am glad to see other parties coming on board. to failed bank executives. Therefore, I very much welcome the one-off bankers bonus tax introduced by the Ann Clwyd: At least we have support from one section Government. Even better than a one-off tax would be a of the Opposition. tax on every year’s bonus round. We should also explore the idea of a high pay We should go further still. I fully support the idea of commission, which could be modelled on the Low Pay a Robin Hood tax on global financial transactions, Commission. It would look at the effects of very high which could be used to address the causes of global pay—people earning millions of pounds in salaries and poverty, to fund some of our own public services, or just bonuses—on the economy and wider society. Very large to underwrite the financial system so that it is in a inequalities in pay, and people earning very high pay, position to bail itself out in future. That is one of a distort the economy and are bad for the well-being of number of measures that could inject a little more society. The Government needed to be there to prevent responsibility into the financial system. I am pleased the collapse of the banks and its impact on the economy, that the Prime Minister has said that he supports the but they also need to be there to support people when idea, as long as he gets global support for it, and I hope they are struggling and require help. The Tories simply it will become a reality. do not understand that. I was here in the 1980s and ’90s and remember their attitude towards people then. Mr. Jones: The right hon. Lady mentions the failure As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State observed, of the banks. Does she share the view of the Governor for the Tories unemployment was a price worth paying, of the Bank of England that had the regulatory regime despite its devastating consequences for individuals and that was in place not been in place, and had there been communities. I do not believe that their attitudes have an overarching responsibility on the part of one regulator, changed at all since then. I think that when the Tories the failures of the banks would have been nipped in the talk about cutting state involvement in people’s lives, bud? On bank bonuses, is she aware that in the case of they mean cutting support for people. I think that the 499 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 500 difference between a Labour and a Tory Government— honour and respect. I think all hon. Members will agree which is becoming all too apparent—is that Labour that the young Welsh men and women out there represent understands that when people are struggling they look some of the finest role models for all Welsh people at to the Government for support, and understands that this time. Governments can be a force for good. The context and backdrop for this year’s St. David’s In my constituency, 8,200 families are receiving child day debate is, of course, the crisis in our public finances. or working tax credit. In April, a £65 increase in the I should emphasise the word “crisis” because nothing child element of child tax credit will benefit more than the Secretary of State had to say on the matter got close 200,000 families in Wales. More than 4,000 pensioner to recognising honestly the challenge this country is households in Cynon Valley receive pension credit. facing, with the disaster that has been visited on our There are also winter fuel payments of £250 for the fiscal affairs and the state of the public finances. The over-60s and £400 for the over-80s, along with, this projected deficit is a truly enormous £178 billion. That winter, cold weather payments of £25 a week. is an unprecedented sum: the country has not had a More people have kept their jobs and more businesses deficit like it before. Frankly, for the Secretary of State have kept going because of the action taken by the to try to reassure us that somehow under a Labour Labour Government throughout the recession. The rate Government it can be halved or eliminated within four of job losses during this recession has been four times years, without giving any real idea of how they will do lower than it was in the 1990s. In Cynon Valley, the new that, does not cut it. The truth is that within two years deal job schemes have created 3,390 jobs since 1997. the interest we will be paying on our national debt will Other schemes, such as the future jobs fund, are helping be approaching £60 billion a year, which is more than people into jobs rather than throwing them on the the Ministry of Defence and education budgets combined. scrapheap as the Tories did. Labour is supporting young We will be spending more on servicing our debt than on people by guaranteeing an education or training place educating our children and young people, and on defending for those aged up to 18, and a job or training place for our borders. 18 to 24-year-olds who have been out of work for six months Mrs. Gillan: I wonder whether my hon. Friend has On Monday, along with my hon. Friend the Under- had an opportunity yet to read the text of the excellent Secretary of State, I shall visit the Cynon Valley whisky- lecture given last night by the shadow Chancellor, my producing factory in Penderyn. I shall then attend a hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne). It “topping-out” ceremony for the new Cynon Valley contained some fairly grim analysis, including the fact neighbourhood hospital, which is due to open in April 2011. that if the off-balance-sheet liabilities such as public All that represents a Labour Government at Westminster, sector pensions are included, we are well on the way to a Labour-led Government in Wales, and a Labour having a level of debt amounting to more than 90 per council in Rhondda Cynon Taf delivering real public cent. of GDP, and that the interest payments on that service improvements. debt could rise above 10 per cent. of GDP within 10 years, and to almost 30 per cent. in 30 years. Does 2.37 pm my hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): It (Mr. Crabb) agree that those predictions—which are is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Cynon made by some very eminent people who understand Valley (Ann Clwyd). She is a powerful voice for Cynon economics possibly better than we do—are alarming? Valley, and also a persistent and tireless champion of the rights of women and other oppressed groups living Mr. Crabb: I am very alarmed at those statistics; in under authoritarian Governments and dictators in different fact, I find them horrifying. The true state of the public parts of the world. She has won my respect and admiration finances is appalling. Who will pay for this? Frankly, it for both those aspects of her work. will not be our generation; instead, it will be the nation’s So far, this St David’s day debate has largely followed young people, and the children after them. Indeed, I the pattern of previous such debates, and, indeed, our think that one reason why there has been such a tone of debates in the Welsh Grand Committee. The Secretary complacency on our public finances this afternoon is of State always leads with a highly combative and that it is not the generations represented in this Chamber partisan speech, engaging in heavy historical revisionism today who will end up picking up the bill. and distorting the Opposition parties’ track records and Young people are among the biggest victims of the policies. Members of his party then take up the theme, current recession. We need only consider the increase in and usually end up looking back to the 1980s and 1990s youth unemployment in the past two years to realise and comparing the record of previous Conservative that. They are victims of this recession not only because Governments with what they consider to be that of the of unemployment, however; they are victims of an current Government. unsustainable and irresponsible increase in public spending I would caution against that, and I intend to use the that has brought us to this position, because the truth is next few minutes to inject some corrective content into that, contrary to what the Secretary of State tried to the discussion. First, however, I wish to join other hon. make us believe, the massive deficit we are facing is not Members in paying tribute to all the Welsh servicemen just a result of the banking crisis. There was a large, and servicewomen who are serving in Afghanistan. growing and unsustainable structural deficit in the public During the recent recess, my constituents learned that finances even before the bank bail-out, and that did not Lance Sergeant David Greenhalgh, of north Pembrokeshire, get addressed. Young people will end up paying for this. had been the latest Welsh soldier to be killed in action in Two weeks ago, I spoke to a year 12 group at Ysgol Afghanistan. He was killed on Saturday 13 February in Bro Gwaun in Fishguard as part of its Welsh baccalaureate Lashkar Gah, aged 25. He was an outstanding young studies. The students told me that in a previous class man, and he will be remembered with the deepest they had been addressed by a speaker from Swansea 501 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 502

[Mr. Crabb] total decimation of the rural tax office network in Wales has happened under this Labour Government. university, who had given them a very sobering message We have lost Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs office indeed about how tough things will be, particularly this in Haverfordwest and, indeed, most tax offices in rural year and next year, for young people wanting to go to west and north Wales. university, because of the cuts that have been visited on the higher education budget. The truth is that Welsh Mrs. Gillan: I remember visiting local employees of young people will have to fight harder than before; they HMRC with my hon. Friend several years ago and will have to achieve higher grades than ever before to complaining about those closures, because they have win places at university. Many hundreds, or thousands, affected not only the people who used to work in those of Welsh prospective students will find out later this offices, but people who are desperately trying to pay year that they cannot pursue their desired course at their taxes. We should not underestimate the amount of university or that they have not got a place at a college pain that has been caused and we must remember that or university of their choice. Many will instead find this was happening during the so-called good times themselves adding to the youth unemployment statistics. under this Government. The truth is that the higher education budget has been Mr. Crabb: My hon. Friend makes an important singled out for a massive cut already. The Secretary of point. The great paradox that people in my constituency State did not elaborate on that, but he is a member of do not understand is why, when public spending was the Government and Cabinet that made that decision being ramped up so rapidly, they did not see the benefit three weeks ago. Almost £1 billion will be cut from the of it and instead saw cuts to important local services. If English higher education budget over the next three Labour wishes to bring its election campaign to west years, and that will have a direct impact on Welsh Wales to argue that a Labour Government would mean prospective students. continued spending and a Tory Government would mean Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I wish to reinforce cuts, it will not get far with the people of Pembrokeshire. that point. The knock-on effect to which the hon. I say with no disrespect to the hon. Member for Gentleman refers means that the Institute of Biological, Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire (Nick Ainger) Environmental and Rural Sciences, which is a part of that Labour faces the prospect of not having a Member Aberystwyth university, is having to comprehend the west of Swansea after this coming election, because of prospect of up to 70 job losses. That is a tragedy for not what it has done to rural west Wales. only the young people, but the associated local economy. I conclude by making a few remarks about transport This is a very serious issue. infrastructure. I have spoken before about the inadequate state of the road network connecting west Wales to the Mr. Crabb: The hon. Gentleman makes an important rest of the United Kingdom. The A40, which is the point, as ever. This Government are so desperate to principal route running east-west through my constituency, cling on to this bogus narrative that a re-elected Labour forms part of the strategic European road network Government would mean continued spending and linking the west coast of Ireland with continental Europe, investment and that a Tory Government would mean yet the people who use that road and make the long savage and irresponsible cuts. That narrative is just not journeys—I am thinking of the lorry drivers to whom I credible for two reasons. The first is that every serious have spoken—say that the very worst section of that commentator and analyst who examines the state of the continental route is the bit through Pembrokeshire. It is public finances knows that cuts across the board will a single carriageway, it is overused and it is dangerous. need to be made in the next few years—those cuts will Pembrokeshire contains a quarter of the UK’s remaining be very severe for some Departments and will have a oil refineries, the liquefied natural gas plants that will direct knock-on effect in Wales. provide up to 20 per cent. of the UK’s gas supply, and I shall now speak slightly parochially as the Member two major ferry terminals, yet this pathetic single for Preseli Pembrokeshire, because the second reason carriageway A40 goes through it. Labour in Westminster why this message from the Government is not credible is and Labour in the Assembly has been completely resistant because constituencies such as mine in rural west Wales to any argument put to it by the business community, have been living with Labour’s cuts for the past 10 years. Assembly Members, MPs or local authorities for improving, We know what cuts look like because we have been upgrading and dualling that section of road. I am sick living with public service cuts. and tired of seeing Labour Ministers make the journey down to my constituency to have their photographs Albert Owen indicated dissent. taken at the new LNG sites, the oil refineries and the other developments in my constituency, and to praise Mr. Crabb: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman’s constituency those developments, given that they will not listen to the is the only one in Wales that has been immune from the views of the management of these companies—the near total decimation of NHS dentistry that Wales has foreign investors who have pumped money into these seen under a Labour Government. This Labour projects—who say, “For goodness’ sake, why can’t we Government have destroyed NHS dentistry in rural improve the transport infrastructure?” Part of the reason Wales. More than 4,500 people in Pembrokeshire are why is that as we now have the Welsh Assembly, a waiting for an NHS dentist, and some of them have Cardiff-centric body is making the decisions about transport been waiting for three or four years. spending. Pembrokeshire and other parts of west Wales The Labour Government have cut the rural post are a blind spot for the Welsh Assembly. office network to ribbons in the past few years. Rural villages throughout west and north Wales have lost Mr. Hain: As it happens, I agree that the A40 should amenities and that has had a massive impact, particularly be upgraded. I argued that as a Welsh Transport Minister on the elderly who live in these communities. The near and I hope that it will be addressed when resources 503 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 504 allow, although for the life of me I cannot understand Mr. Touhig: I thank my right hon. Friend. When I how the hon. Gentleman scan think that under a Conservative came and stood at the Bar of the House he stood on Government the Welsh Assembly Government will have one side and my right hon. Friend the Member for the resources necessary to upgrade roads, let alone those Torfaen stood on the other—I had the two apostles, to west Wales. Since he paints such a dismal picture of Peter and Paul. When I got to the Table of the House, life in Pembrokeshire, may I ask him why long-term they abandoned me and I was left on my own after that. unemployment in Preseli and south Pembrokeshire is I thank them anyway. 82 per cent. lower than it was when Labour came into The first time I spoke in this Chamber was on 2 March power and why long-term youth unemployment is 67 per 1995. I had been elected to Parliament on 16 February cent. lower? That is a sign of success, not dismal misery. in a by-election and I took the opportunity of the annual St. David’s day debate to make my maiden Mr. Crabb: I do not paint any dismal picture of life in speech. I spoke then from the Opposition Benches and I Pembrokeshire. Pembrokeshire remains the best place remember laying into the appalling record of a discredited in Britain to live and grow up— Tory Government who were systematically destroying Mr. Hain: Because of the Labour Government. and tearing apart society in Wales. With the passage of time, it is easy to forget the state of the country as we Mr. Crabb: It always has been. We have spoken inherited it when we came into government in 1997. before about the unemployment figures, and I welcome When I spoke 15 years ago, schools were struggling to the drop in unemployment in my constituency. I grew deliver education with budgets that had been squeezed up at a time when unemployment was a lot higher than by Tory Government cuts. As for our health service, a it is now. I am the first to put my hand up and welcome hospital serving my constituency appealed to the public the fall in unemployment, largely on the back of some not to come to the casualty unit because there were not big investments from the private sector. Let me make enough doctors to deal with emergency cases. the point again. These people who are pumping the money in are American, Malaysian and French; they David T. C. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman knows come from all over the world because they recognise the that I hold him in the highest esteem, but does he really strategic importance of Milford Haven as an energy think it wise to compare records on the NHS given the hub. They all say to me and to the chief executive of my disgraceful report that has recently come out about an local authority that we need better transport infrastructure. NHS hospital in England? That is the message I want to leave with the Government, but I fear that we will need a change of Government to Mr. Touhig: I have no doubt that is important to get any serious movement on the issue. compare records on the NHS. The Labour party founded the NHS—resisted by the Conservative party. We built 2.51 pm and sustained it; all the Conservatives have done to it when they have been in government is to damage it. Mr. Don Touhig (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I am probably the only Member on the Government Benches seeking When I re-read the speech that I made 15 years to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, in today’s ago—as I did the other day, not out of vanity, but to debate who, by deliberate decision, will be retiring at the check what I had said—it made me go a little cold, coming general election and who will not be here at because in spite of the desperate circumstances that the next St. David’s day debate. At the outset, may I people were in at that time, the then Tory Government thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen proved that they did not give a damn. We had an NHS (Mr. Murphy), the hon. Member for Brecon and that had been driven almost to breaking point, despite Radnorshire (Mr. Williams), the shadow Secretary of the superb commitment of doctors and nurses, and the State and my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon people who suffered most throughout the UK were Valley (Ann Clwyd) for the kind things that they have those who relied entirely on the NHS for their treatment. all said about those of us who will be retirees at the next My constituents were among the worst affected. general election? I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) and my hon. Mrs. Gillan: Does the right hon. Gentleman therefore Friends the Members for Conwy (Mrs. Williams), for share my despair regarding the report that has emerged Vale of Glamorgan (John Smith) and for Clwyd, South today, which states that six out of the seven new local (Mr. Jones). They have all made a considerable contribution health boards in Wales are to go more than £43 million to this House in the time that they have been here. I pay over budget? That is, of course, under a Labour-run tribute, too, to the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East Welsh Assembly Government. It appears that those and Dinefwr (Adam Price). He and I have clashed many budgets are under great pressure and that those boards a time over the years but I have no doubt about his will not be able to balance the books or ensure high passion for, and commitment to, making good the lives patient standards. of the people of Wales. Mr. Touhig: I share the hon. Lady’s concern about Mr. Hain: I join my right hon. Friend in paying budget difficulties in the health service, which are inevitable tribute to all our colleagues who are retiring, but may I because demand will always be greater than can ever be pay particular tribute to him? He was a terrific Wales satisfied. Nevertheless, more money has been pumped Office Minister serving my right hon. Friend the Member into the health service under Labour Governments than for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) and serving me, and he has was ever pumped in when the Conservative party were served this House for 15 years. I fought with him in his last in government. by-election—I was his minder. The fact that he is standing My constituency, Wales and the UK have all been down represents a real loss to this House and to Wales transformed in the past few years compared with the and I wish him all the best in the future. situation when I came here 15 years ago. Even now, 505 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 506

[Mr. Touhig] Yes, too many children still live in poverty. We can all quote figures, but what does poverty mean for children? however, the Tories have not learned any lessons. They It means that they do not have regular meals or decent look back on the years when they were in government clothes, and that they do not live in decent accommodation. as some sort of golden age. Frankly, they simply have It means that children do not have the right equipment not changed. While every country in Europe wants to for school, or the inclination to use it. Poverty also maintain investment in the economy in the coming year, means that children, as they go into adulthood, expect they say that if they are elected, they will start making to fail even before they get started. cuts on day one. The Conservative party is the very same party that advocated standing aside and letting One aspect of poverty—the poverty of ambition—is banks go bust, the very same party that was prepared to not often reported in the newspapers. The problem is stand aside and see families evicted from their homes not easy to quantify but, if we do not tackle it, we will because they could not pay their mortgages, and the not progress and improve our society. All too often, I very same party that was prepared to see people thrown have heard people say, “Going to university or starting out of work because of a lack of Government support a business? Not for the likes of us.” for business and industry. All that would be accelerated I well remember visiting a primary school in my and would cause even more grief if they were to come constituency. The headmaster told me, “Do you know, into government and make sweeping cuts to public Don, when I came to the village, nobody expected services. anything from me? No one had gone to university, or In 1995, I lamented the fact that we had no general had the ambition to do so. They believed that university hospital in Islwyn. Between 1993 and 1994, 30,000 was not for the likes of them.” He told me, “I said to a people from my constituency went to the nearest out-patient lady last week, ‘If you work with me, your lad is going department 15 miles away in Newport. If anything to university.’ She said, ‘You’re off your b….. head!’” shows the change and the great investment that Labour The headmaster added that the lad in question was Governments have made, it is the fantastic 21st-century inquisitive, intelligent and articulate. He said, “If they hospital at Ystrad Fawr on the border between my worked with me as a family, he would go to comprehensive constituency and that of the Under-Secretary of State school and be on his way to university.” Poverty of for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly ambition must be eradicated. The task that we face is to (Mr. David). Since 1999, investment in the NHS in equip people of all ages with the skills that they need, Wales has nearly doubled, and investment in new buildings and the self-confidence to say, “Yes, university is for me. and equipment has trebled. There has been major Yes, I will start and invest in and build up my own investment in schools, with a massive rise in the number business.” of nursery school places. There are smaller class sizes That task will not be easy. It calls on us to have a and we have new buildings and equipment, as well as change of mindset and be bold and radical, but it also extra teachers. For the working families I represent, means that we have to provide training throughout life. education has been a pathway out of poverty—secured It is absolutely critical to our economic future that we by a Labour Government. For me, that is the fundamental invest in training and upskilling our people. In the US, difference between a Tory Government and a Labour 80 per cent. of people in work have been back in a Government. The Labour party stands by the people, training situation since leaving school. The figure in whereas the Tory party stands idle and lets the people Germany and Japan is 56 per cent., but it is only 30 per suffer. cent. here. That is the measure of how far we still have It is all very well to look back—and it is especially to travel to improve training and opportunities for our tempting now, at my time—but it is also important to people. look forward. These have been great, reforming Labour Governments, whose one great legacy has been their For us to compete, we need to give our people the attempts to eradicate poverty in every form. The great skills in IT and engineering that will attract investment. socialist James Maxton once said: We must also get a head start in the coming green revolution and all the new technologies that will accompany “Poverty is man-made therefore open to change”. it. We need to give our people in Wales the skills that The Government have embraced that idea and have they do not yet have in order to create the jobs that we done much to try to reduce poverty. There is much more do not yet have. to do. The two poorest groups in our society are at the extreme ends of the age range—pensioners and children. I have always felt that the real challenge is not just Welsh, but global. We are part of a world where powerful Mr. David Jones: If tackling poverty is indeed the new economies such as China and the Asian nations Government’s principal aim, will the right hon. Gentleman will challenge and then overtake Europe and the US. I concede that they have failed abjectly in Wales? It is the welcome that challenge, as should we all. We cannot poorest region of the country, and four of the five bury our heads in the sand: it is absolutely vital that we poorest local authority areas in the whole UK are based are ready, willing and able to meet that challenge head-on. there. Does he acknowledge that that is a complete, There is no future for Wales—or, for that matter, the abject and utter failure? UK—if we try to compete for low-skilled, low-paid jobs. They will go where money and wages are cheapest. It is as simple as that. Mr. Touhig: The point is that we have continued to invest to reduce poverty and improve communities. Our real competitive advantage will be our knowledge That investment did not exist until this party came into base, and our capacity for innovation. In simple terms, government, and it will not exist if it were to cease to be we have to be smarter, quicker and more adaptable than in government. our competitors. The world is undergoing a new industrial 507 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 508 revolution—the knowledge revolution, fuelled by the My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen referred pace of technological change. Wales must be at the to General Dynamics, and I well remember trying to forefront of that change. persuade that company to go to Wales and, in particular, The only way that countries such as Wales will be locate in Islwyn when we were losing jobs in the steel able to compete is by retraining and upskilling our industry. While I was telling the bosses of General people. We have to keep ahead with new innovative Dynamics here in London that Wales was a good place ideas, and we must exploit those ideas fully in order to in which to invest and grow their business, others were improve our skills. That also means opening up the saying that Wales was a step away from the soup kitchens, excellent research facilities at our universities, so that because we were losing those jobs in steel. The company small and large businesses can take advantage of them. is now established in my constituency, there are more than 800 jobs and it is an employer of regional significance. In my maiden speech, I said that my constituents I echo my right hon. Friend’s words and wish it well in and, indeed, people throughout Wales wanted work, its bid to secure the FRES contract, upon which the not benefits. They wanted opportunities to enrich their Ministry of Defence will soon decide. lives through education, and no one will leave education No matter how difficult the road ahead may seem today and have a job for life. Everyone will have to and no matter how hard it is to come to terms with the retrain and reskill throughout their working lives, and adversity and setbacks that we all face, we must not lose no one should sit at home surviving on benefits if they the faith that we, as a nation, will come through the can work. Indeed, if we are to achieve the goal of current economic difficulties. There is still a strong ensuring that people throughout Wales have jobs, not community feeling in the valleys of my constituency—a benefits, we must face up to the challenge of the knowledge feeling of belonging. Generations of families in the revolution. valleys have been tested in the white heat of the furnace Even though we live in a global economy, there are of struggle and hardship over the years. Our fathers and those who believe that we should embrace a narrow, mothers all went through that struggle, but, like people nationalist and separatist agenda. They claim that Wales everywhere, the people I know, represent and live among is so different from England that we would have a better want the best for themselves, their children and their future if we were independent but in Europe. They used grandchildren. They want work, not benefits, opportunities to cite Ireland and Iceland, but people do not do that to enrich their lives through education and a decent anymore; indeed, all of us have constituents who have standard of living and a decent health service. lost their life savings in the collapsed Icelandic banking People in Islwyn, like people throughout Wales and system. All the fantasies about an independent Wales the United Kingdom, will soon have to make an important simply do not stack up, because the world economic choice about the future of our country. It will be between downturn has proved that the arguments for independence a future with fairness and social justice at its heart and are intellectually, politically and economically bankrupt, one that puts the recovery, public services and jobs at and we should have nothing whatever to do with them. risk. The people will have to decide between a Tory There is no logic in Wales leaving a British union of party that will jeopardise the economy and risk our 60 million people to join a European Union of 350 million. health service, education system and jobs, and a Labour party that will sustain the recovery and protect our Mr. Jones: I share the right hon. Gentleman’s concern public services. about the attitude of the nationalists, but, given his My name will not be on the ballot paper in Islwyn concerns about that, how happy is he that his party is in when the general election comes. However, I feel sure coalition with them in the Welsh Assembly? that people there will choose once again to support the Labour party, which will ensure that they have a future. Mr. Touhig: The Labour party leads the Welsh Assembly, I feel sure that they will not turn to the same old Tories and the policies that the Assembly implements are those who let them down in the past. I fervently hope that, of the Labour party. There might be one or two add-ons like the people of Islwyn, the people of the United from some of the other, minor people, but it is a Kingdom will have the good sense to return a Labour Labour-driven and Labour-led Assembly. After the next Government. election I have no doubt that it will be a Labour-majority Assembly. 3.10 pm We must continue to be positive about the British Union and the European Union. Europe, and all that it Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): It is a pleasure to represents for us, means that we have to be a self-confident follow the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig). and outward-looking country, because Europe, which We might not always see eye to eye on politics, but no had an important role in our past, will have an important one can doubt his passion, consistency and deep role in our future. The people I have had the privilege of commitment to his people in Islwyn. I take this opportunity representing in this House for the past 15 years know to thank him personally for the kindness that he has shown the meaning of struggle. Even now, despite the great me and my family during my time in the House. improvements in public services, family incomes and St. David’s day is approaching, so this is a good time the quality of people’s lives, many face problems and for Welsh people to look back and look forward—as a worries because of the recent recession, which we are Welsh nationalist, I am certainly in the business of now coming out of. I spoke to traders in Blackwood looking forward rather than back. I apologise on behalf high street in my constituency last week, and they are of my hon. Friend the Member for Meirionnydd Nant finding things tough. Despite that, there is a determination Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), who is travelling to Cardiff for an to get through our troubles. There must always be engagement this evening and cannot be with us this optimism. afternoon. 509 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 510

[Hywel Williams] bonuses to people earning less than £39,000 a year, the lowest-paid members of staff. The briefing said that We are approaching St. David’s day, Dydd Gwyl that was entirely in line with what the Prime Minister Dewi Sant. As a non-commercial break, there will be a has been saying. The lobby spokesman said that RBS is service on Monday at St. Mary Undercroft. My hon. a very good example of having taken on board what the Friend the Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr Prime Minister has been saying on bank bonuses. I (Adam Price) will be reading, as will the right hon. would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams). This year, I welcome that news, as I do. am glad to say that Mr. Speaker has also consented to read during the service. I hope to see as many hon. Mr. Williams: The hon. Lady has the advantage of Members there as possible. me, as I have not seen that briefing. However, the fact St. David, or Dewi Sant, said that we should keep the remains that RBS is going to spend £1.3 billion on faith, do the small things and be joyous—those were his bonuses; whether that is the only way in which it can injunctions. It might not be easy to carry them out in operate its businesses is another matter. the current circumstances, for in the past year we have Lembit Öpik: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? seen unprecedented economic turmoil and great difficulties, particularly in the financial sector. Mr. Williams: Briefly. It would be remiss of me not to begin by noting the tragedy of the continuing war in Afghanistan. Our Lembit Öpik: I do not want to prolong the debate service personnel have faced death and injury over about the British banking system, but I gently highlight many years, as have so many of the Afghan population. to the hon. Gentleman something that has been made In making that point and extending my sympathy to the clear to me by those in the banking system—that they families involved, I wish to emphasise the Plaid Cymru regard bonuses as a traditional part of how they remunerate policy. We have repeatedly opposed the war. We have their staff. In order to get away from this situation called, and call now, for a phased withdrawal, peace completely, they will have to change their system completely, negotiations and the installation of a United Nations because it does not look good. However, I am cautious peacekeeping force. about completely condemning bonuses, because, as the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) I turn to the domestic front. The banks have started has rightly pointed out, they seem to have listened to paying enormous bonuses again, but unfortunately the the Prime Minister’s advice. people of Wales have yet to reap the full and disastrous effects of the economic whirlwind brought on by the Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes his point. barely controlled financial sector in the City of London. There have already been increases in unemployment So few of the people of Wales benefited from that in Wales and, despite the efforts of the Government in sector, although we are, of course, paying for it now. Cardiff and, to be fair, the steps taken by the Government I repeat a point made my hon. Friend the Member for here—the future jobs fund is a welcome step—further Meirionnydd Nant Conwy that there was an opportunity increases in joblessness loom. As we in Wales are so to put more controls on the banks at an earlier stage. heavily dependent on employment in the public sector, The Royal Bank of Scotland is, of course, publicly any cuts in the public sector will have a disproportionate owned, and it is a disgrace that it seems ready to pay out effect. We are determined to foster and grow the other so much money in bonuses. The people in Wales and the part of the Welsh economy—the part that generates the UK will come to their own opinion about that. wealth. I am glad to pay special tribute to the work of the Deputy First Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones, who has Albert Owen: Like me, the hon. Gentleman is really shown real talent in a big, and possibly the most onerous, disappointed to see those large bonuses being paid out, job in the Welsh Government. particularly from banks that have received taxpayers’ money. However, does he not acknowledge that, had Let me look at the local situation in my own constituency. the Government not taken an interventionist role in the Last week, I visited a company called Welcome Furniture, banking and financial institutions, there would have which has rescued a furniture-making business in been great turmoil for ordinary citizens in his constituency Caernarfon that crashed, mainly because it was Irish- and mine? To have sat back, done nothing and left owned—the acknowledged difficulties in the Irish economy things to the market would have been an even worse meant that the subsidiary in Wales also faced difficulties. path to follow. With a great deal of short-term help from the Welsh Assembly and the local authority, the business has been Hywel Williams: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman able to re-establish itself, and it now employs 77 people, in that respect, but I would look at the whole piece and which is more people than it employed previously. go a bit further back to the rip-roaring days when Unfortunately, in the past year we have seen the loss people were carrying shed-loads of money out of the of a large public sector project that would have generated City of London, which was allowed to happen without large numbers of jobs in my constituency, as well as in sufficient regulation. Points could have been made earlier Ynys Môn and other areas. I am referring, of course, to on about the way in which the banks, having received all the prison project in Caernarfon. It was a particular this public money, with one of them being largely disappointment that that was abandoned. The Welsh publicly owned, should have acted as regards bonuses. Affairs Committee looked into prison provision several years ago, at my suggestion, and we were very pleased Mrs. Gillan: I am not disagreeing with the hon. to see the announcement about the prison in Caernarfon. Gentleman, but in the lobby briefing this morning—we The Committee is looking at the matter again, and we all receive “Gallery News” in our e-mails—it was pointed will be reporting on it. No doubt the hon. Member for out that the Royal Bank of Scotland has agreed to give Aberavon (Dr. Francis) will refer to that in his speech. 511 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 512

Albert Owen: I shared the hon. Gentleman’s All the more reason, therefore, to establish a Welsh disappointment when the Caernarfon project did not go jurisdiction and make policing in Wales the responsibility ahead, and I backed the attempts by him and members of the Welsh Assembly Government. of the Welsh Affairs Committee to ensure that there was a prison in north-west Wales. He will be aware that Julie Morgan: In view of the points that the hon. Isle of Anglesey county council and I have led a delegation Gentleman has just made, does he agree that it is to the Ministry of Justice to find suitable sites in Anglesey. important to retain a good representation of the Legal Would he support any proposed development there? Services Commission in Wales, so that it can provide the services that are needed? Hywel Williams: I certainly support the prosperity that would come from such a project, which would spill Hywel Williams: I agree entirely with the hon. Lady over into my constituency. What is more, it would and I am very glad that there was co-operation on both hopefully provide the prison facility that we have needed sides of the House and in the Welsh Affairs Committee in north Wales for such a long time. I would like it to when we addressed that matter, which we have hopefully contain a facility for young people and one for women, done successfully. but we await the announcements. Less positively, I must note the problems with the housing legislative competence order, which has still not The people of Caernarfon, both the minority who passed after some 32 months. The Welsh Affairs Committee were against the prison—a number had legitimate fears, raised some fundamental points about the first version, although I believe that they could have been assuaged—and but as a Committee, we acted quickly—there are sometimes the rather larger group in favour, all engaged in reasoned complaints that matters are held up by the Committee, and adult debate, and we did the necessary preparatory but I do not believe that that happened in this case. Of work in both the public and private sector. The latter course, there has been a great deal of to-ing and fro-ing was keen to take part. I pay tribute to Gwynedd county between Cardiff and London, which I am sure will be council, under the leadership of Dyfed Edwards. The the subject of the Committee’s forthcoming report on prison project in Caernarfon might be no more, but any Wales and Whitehall. Perhaps the Chairman of the prospective investor in Arfon can be confident of meeting Committee rather than I will say more about that. a positive and expert response, and it is definitely open for business. The evidence that the Committee took, which is publicly available, shows a lack of awareness of the In the past year we have also seen the passing, at last, nature of devolution among civil service personnel in of the Welsh language legislative competence order, London. Interestingly, Rhodri Morgan said that dealing which was of particularly satisfaction to me and to with Whitehall was like being the First Minister of the many people across Wales who have been campaigning last colony. That may be a Rhodri-ism, but it is very for a long time for the emancipation of the Welsh revealing. We must struggle on with the LCO system, language. I was particularly glad of the positive contribution but many in Wales and in this House look forward to made by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, the Welsh the referendum, and the establishment—at last—of full Language Society. It has its campaigning methods and and proper law-making powers for the Senedd in Cardiff. its work to do, and its tactics are not the ones that I would choose, but its contribution to the consideration Looking forward to the election, Plaid Cymru has a of the LCO should be a matter of pride to it. It showed number of policies on key issues, including child poverty, yet again that it is in the forefront of positive and but I should like to talk about pensioner poverty and creative thinking about the future of the language, and our living pension policy. According to Age Concern, it certainly has a great deal more work to do in that older people say that tackling pensioner poverty and field. I hope that soon, a Measure will be published reforming the struggling care system are top priorities setting up a language commissioner, which would the for them, so let me put this plainly: ending pensioner first such step by the Assembly. There will be many poverty should be at the top of the agenda for any party more to be taken afterwards. of government or any aspiring party of government, and Labour and Tory alike have failed to some extent in The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth that respect over many decades. Indeed, coming up to (Alun Michael), who is unfortunately not here this the general election, the London parties seem obsessed afternoon, scored a success yesterday with his Bill regarding with outbidding one another on cuts to public services marriage in Wales. It took about 10 minutes to pass and privatisation agendas. through its Committee stage and attracted brief contributions from a large number of Welsh Members—it The point is that so much of the policy debate is was a good-humoured occasion. I have no truck with about English policy, but, for example, health and envy, but I point out to Ministers and the official education—two major issues—are devolved to Wales. Opposition that my Bill to allow the registration of By the same token, of course, they are devolved to births and deaths in Welsh enjoys wide cross-party England, so it is a two-way street. By the way, I never support and support across Wales. In the coming year, hear people in Wales complaining about quasi-devolution it would be fitting if the House were to match the Welsh to England; they seem much more concerned with Assembly Government’s positive steps in legislating on devolution in Wales. The truth is that in the crucial the Welsh language by making available parliamentary matters of health and education, this Parliament often time for what I claim is a most worthwhile Bill. While I acts as England’s Parliament. The Leader of the Opposition am on the subject of my own efforts in this field, I point might pledge on billboards not to cut the NHS, but he to my proposed bilingual juries Bill, which also commands should add, “in England”, which would clarify the support across Wales, significantly so in the legal profession. matter for people in Wales. It would be remiss of me not to note the quickening Mr. David Jones: Is it not the case that preserving the pace of change in the legal profession in Wales. We now NHS budget would also benefit Wales through the have a Welsh circuit and a growing body of Welsh law. Barnett formula? 513 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 514

Hywel Williams: Indeed it would, but the public and treachery is in the air debate so often seems to be on features of the NHS in and the smooth ones, the experts at compromise England. Perhaps that will change as the election approaches. are bowing in Whitehall”. On the care at home Green Paper, which is another concern of older people, the UK Government have long David T. C. Davies: I, too, am fond of Idris Davies’s promised to do something about the cost of care, dating poems, and one of his more famous ones was “When we back well into the last century. The Green Paper that was walked to Merthyr Tydfil”. Of course he would not rolled out could apply directly only to England, because have needed to walk there had there been a Conservative care is devolved, but then disability living allowance Government, because we invested millions of pounds in and attendance allowance came to the fore, and it was the Heads of the Valleys road and other dual carriageways said that they could be used to pay for care. The to allow new industry to get into those valleys. implications of the Green Paper for Wales were unclear. Vulnerable people in Wales who depend on the DLA Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman now has the and attendance allowance were alarmed by press reports, headline for his next press release. some of which were extremely unclear, and many of Idris Davies was often viewed as the poet of the which did not refer to the England-only nature of the depression, but he had some very funny things to say as proposals. Those proposals have changed steadily, and I well. I came across a poem about the people who have a understand that now the intention is that, for existing tendency to talk Wales down: claimants and those over 65, the DLA and attendance “They don’t like Sunday concerts allowance will be looked at for those in England only. I look forward to the Government explaining this issue Or women playing ball further. They don’t like William Parry much The Conservative proposals for residential care costs Or Shakespeare at all. are even more irrelevant to Wales, given that they depend And when they go to Heaven on the taking out of insurance policies at a cost of They won’t like that too well, £8,000—although the figures are disputed and others say that the real costs would be somewhat higher. There For the music will be sweeter would be a problem for Welsh pensioners who depend Than the music played in Hell.” on the retirement pension. Age Concern says that all I am not one of those looking for the miserabilist older people should enjoy an adequate standard of option. I do not say, “That is not for us, we cannot do living, but 119,000 Welsh pensioners are living in poverty. it.” That is the Welsh voice, the half-mocking self-doubt That is why we would introduce our policy of a living combined with the blind fervour that we deserve better, pension, to bring together the pension credit and the that we can do better. The second tendency is the one current retirement pension, which would be paid for out that we should foster, and that is the duty of every of the tax relief that now goes to higher rate taxpayers democratic representative from Wales. on their pension contributions. We should not always say no, or refuse change. Instead, This will be a very important election. All the polls we should set the abilities and the aspirations of the now point to a Parliament with no party in overall people of Wales free. We have a duty to make and control, so there will be an opportunity to hear the remake our nation, and that is a duty that I commend voices of the people of Wales which are so often submerged to the Welsh Members of this House. in the big party battles in this place. I said earlier that St. David had several injunctions 3.35 pm for us, including the exhortation to be joyous. I am afraid that my speech has been somewhat pessimistic, Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): Thank you, but I am by nature an optimist, and I have a deep belief Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this in the ability of the people of Wales to overcome important debate held on St. David’s day. It is a great difficulties. We are survivors, as demonstrated by our pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Caernarfon mastery of the elements of the industrial revolution, the (Hywel Williams). I want to echo many of the points overcoming of the terrible depression of the 1930s and made, particularly from the Labour Benches, and to the relative prosperity of the 1960s and 1970s, and our wish all retiring Members all the best for the future—they coping with the disaster of Tory rule under Mrs. Thatcher have been good friends and comrades. and then under Mr. Major. However, we can be much Like the hon. Member for Caernarfon, I am an more than survivors if we so choose. There is a carping optimist and have great hope and confidence in what we tendency in Wales. We can talk ourselves down, but I do can achieve in Wales. I do not play down the amount of not want to be part of that. suffering during the recession in my constituency, but I am a great admirer of Idris Davies—I suppose that despite all that I see great signs of hope. As I mentioned I should call him the socialist poet—the author of earlier, my constituency has seen a growth in the number “Gwalia Deserta” and “The Angry Summer: A Poem of of private companies and jobs, and last week I visited 1926”. I should point out to the right hon. Member for the partially built positron emission tomography—PET— Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) that Idris Davies was also a Plaid scanner in the Heath hospital, which will be one of the Cymru member, at least in his last days. He was remarkably most advanced scanners in the UK and the world. It is prescient. In his poem, “The Telephones are Ringing”, able to detect cancers and other diseases at a very early he may have been foreseeing recent events in this place stage, because it detects the movement of cells. It is a when he says: miracle of engineering. I visited it and thought it one of “The telephones are ringing the most advanced mechanisms of medical discovery in 515 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 516 the world—and it has been built for the Health hospital engineer employed by the developer. The only and the health service in Cardiff. That is a huge tribute recommendation in the report that is legally enforceable to what we can achieve. by the Environment Agency does not require the emptying Recently, I also visited many schools in my constituency of the reservoir. We fear that WPD is proceeding to to look at the new three to seven-year-old learn-through-play drain the reservoir in order to make its planning application foundation phase. Huge resources have been put into more likely to succeed. that, and it is a delight to visit. Most of all, visiting the Mark Acford, the enforcement officer in reservoir foundation phase classes, I was struck by the huge safety at the Environment Agency in Exeter, confirmed enthusiasm of the teachers. They said, “This is what we in writing to WPD on 18 February that Dr. Hughes’s have always wanted for education. We want children to report does not specifically require a draw-down of the learn in this way, when they can express themselves.” I reservoir in the interests of safety. We now know that am sure that it will be of long-term benefit to the Dr. Hughes had inaccurate information. He thought children in Wales. that a draw-down would enable pipes at the bottom of Those are just a few of the things that have given me the reservoir to be inspected for safety, but it is now this feeling of great optimism recently. However, I want known that those pipes are encased in concrete. He had to use most of my contribution to concentrate on one also been told that there were regular leaks from a pipe particular constituency issue—the big threat to the that leads out from the reservoir, but that pipe has never Llanishen reservoir in my constituency, and the threat leaked. to Cardiff as a whole. The threat has been of development Because it was known that Dr. Hughes had based and of concreting over part of the Llanishen reservoir, other suggestions that a draw-down was needed on and the newest threat is of draining the reservoir. I have incorrect information, RAG, the local action group, been campaigning on this issue for eight years, and I am commissioned one of the most experienced and qualified sure that everybody here is probably fed up of hearing water engineers in the country, Mr. Chris Binnie, to me mention it. I remember raising it at nearly every prepare a review of the situation. His detailed report, session of business questions when my right hon. Friend which is now fully in the public domain, is adamant that the Secretary of State was Leader of the House. the emptying of the reservoir is not needed, either on I am sure that most people here would have thought safety grounds or to carry out the required survey. that this issue was settled and do not want to listen to Mr. Binnie confirms in his report that he has spoken to me going on about it again. However, we are in a Dr. Hughes on several occasions and had a meeting difficult situation. Western Power Distribution, which is with him. Binnie confirms in his executive summary on a subsidiary of Pennsylvania Power and Light, has page 2 that Dr. Hughes has said that spent eight years trying to build a housing estate on “based on the information provided by RAG, he”— Llanishen reservoir. Several planning applications have failed and there have been several appeals. There is no Dr. Hughes— permission to build, and the plans are contrary to the “should reconsider his recommendations,” existing council policy and the local development plan. but that he has The plans have also been strongly opposed by the local reservoir action group, and I would like to pay tribute “been instructed by his client not to communicate”. to its present chairman, Andrew Hill, and its past Binnie says that Hughes was unaware when he wrote his chairman, Ted Thurgood, for their magnificent efforts report in 2008 of the new information now to hand, in opposing the development. which makes emptying the reservoir unnecessary.However, Cardiff, unlike some cities, does not really have a despite formal requests, he is refusing to review his green belt, but has four green wedges that follow the recommendations. rivers that enter the city. Those green wedges go right We are therefore in a difficult situation. The threatened down into the centre of the city, which gives the opportunity draining of the reservoir will have dire consequences for for many people in Cardiff to benefit from greenness, people in my constituency and in Cardiff generally. The even if they live right in the centre of the town. Llanishen youth sailing centre would be out of action for eight reservoir is based in one of these wedges, and development years, which is how long it would take to fill the reservoir has always been forbidden in the Nant Fawr corridor. up with rainwater. The ecology of the reservoir would Despite the council’s policy to keep the corridor for be lost. It contains 300 million gallons of pure rainwater. nature and greenery, WPD has engaged in eight years of There would be a threat of pollution to the streams that attrition, seeking to build on, and now drain, the reservoir. lead into Roath Park lake, with 10,000 cubic metres of The reservoir is a hugely attractive amenity. Cardiff silt being discharged. council has a sailing school there, where youngsters There would also be likely structural damage to the learn to sail, and it has unique water, which is absolutely clay core of the dam if it was left empty for a long pure, being made up entirely of rainwater. If someone period, as clay must be kept wet. Fissures or cracks falls out of the boat into Llanishen reservoir, there is no would develop, and in those circumstances it would be fear of suffering the effects of pollution. easy for a leak to spring and the reservoir never to be Last Friday we received a telephone call at my office. refilled. That is important because the reservoir is now a It was reported to me that there was a lot of commotion listed building—the entire structure has been listed by up at the reservoir, so I went there personally and saw Cadw—so any risk of damage is a criminal offence. that pipes had been delivered and a unit set up. There Binnie says that if the reservoir was empty for six were two security guards, who refused to grant me months, it could be damaged. Some precautionary action entry, and preparations for the draining of the reservoir must be taken. In my view, the council or Cadw have the had begun. WPD’s justification for draining the reservoir grounds to take out an injunction because of the damage is based on a 2008 report by a Dr. Andy Hughes, a dam that could be caused. 517 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 518

[Julie Morgan] The right hon. Lady seems to forget that people in Wales suffered far more in the 1970s, when interest rates The fundamental issues are that Hughes is refusing to were higher than they ever were under a Conservative consider his report in light of new evidence. That raises Government. The industrial chaos that was wreaked by issues about his professional integrity. RAG did not the previous Labour Government is mirrored by the criticise his initial report on the grounds that he had financial chaos that has been imposed on us by the incorrect information, but the two reasons that he gave current one. She also gave the House a rather one-sided for draining the reservoir are no longer valid, and it view of the miners’ strike. She forgot a couple of key seems that Hughes is being muzzled by his client. I am points. First, the Labour Government of Harold Wilson pleased to have the opportunity to lay that out publicly closed down far more mines than the Conservative today. I feel strongly that something must be done. Two Government of Mrs. Thatcher. Secondly, the miners engineers are fundamentally disagreeing about the way were not given any opportunity to vote on whether they ahead, and one engineer is refusing to consider new wished to go on strike, in Wales or anywhere else, evidence. Is there any way in which the Secretary of during that strike. They were being used by the leadership State could intervene, or ask Welsh Assembly Ministers of the National Union of Mineworkers to try to bring to intervene? Perhaps the Institution of Civil Engineers down a democratically elected Government, just as they could appoint an adjudicator to consider both reports. were used in the early 1970s. It was for that reason that We need a cessation of draining while a review takes the miners’ union leaders did not get the support of the place. We need a stay of execution. Government, or of leading members of the Opposition I strongly believe that Cardiff city council has the either. power to issue an injunction to stop the draining of the The Secretary of State made pretty much the same reservoir, because its sailing school is threatened. I also speech that he always makes, attacking Conservative think that Cadw could issue an injunction to stop the policy on everything that happened during the 1980s damage being done to the listed building. Many of my while skimming briefly over the record of the Labour constituents feel very strongly about this, and there is a Government of the past 12 or 13 years. I do not want to strong campaign being run by the local newspaper, the rehearse all the economic arguments, the arguments South Wales Echo. Many people have written to WPD’s about the health service and so on. I just want to draw parent company in the United States to highlight the his attention to a few key cases in my constituency that strength of feeling, not only in my constituency but in demonstrate the failure of Labour in Parliament and in the whole of the Cardiff area, that this reservoir and its the Welsh Assembly. area of natural beauty—which includes a site of special The Secretary of State spoke first about the economy, scientific interest—should be preserved. WPD has power and rightly so. He painted a rosy picture. One thing he and money. It has put up its dreadful steel fences and certainly did not mention was the Severn bridge and its brought in its security guards. It seems absolutely impact on the economy in Wales at the moment. He determined to destroy this listed monument in the SSSI, must be perfectly well aware that the Humber bridge which is part of the Nant Fawr corridor and is one of has had a freeze put on any increases in tolls as a result, the features that gives Cardiff its uniqueness. the Government said, of the bad economic crisis. I have I am glad to have had the chance to put this situation looked at the matter, and users of the Humber bridge on record today. I am appealing to the Secretary of pay roughly the same as users of the Severn bridge, State to see whether there is anything that he can do. albeit that the charging mechanism is slightly different. There are many other important issues affecting my I cannot understand why people living in the Humber constituency, but I have chosen this one because it has area of England can escape a rise in fees—I wish them touched so many people in Cardiff, North, and because all the best and I do not criticise the Government for of the many aspects—recreation, beauty, greenness and that—while Welsh people, especially those living in wildlife—that are so important for communities. south Wales who commute over the Severn bridge every Mr. Hain: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving day, are being treated like second-class citizens and are way and allowing me to respond briefly. I am well aware not being given the same rights as people living in the of her passionate defence of the reservoir; I recall her Humber area. Could it be that there is a Labour marginal raising the subject regularly. I will certainly look into seat in Humber, and that the Government are simply the matter carefully, as Secretary of State, and in any trying to buy votes? I would welcome clarification from case raise it with the First Minister, as she has requested. the Minister with responsibility for that. I go around my constituency speaking to people in Julie Morgan: I thank my right hon. Friend for those business, and they do not recognise the rosy picture comments. I hope that he will be able to do something, painted by the Secretary of State. I recently met David or at least encourage others to do something. With that, Bone, an engineer and the director of Ocean Resource I shall conclude my remarks. Ltd, which creates designs for oil refineries and wind farms. He is a successful entrepreneur and a man who is 3.47 pm actually doing things that can help to build the economy. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I am grateful He tells me that he has contacted the Welsh Assembly for this opportunity to say a few words. I should like to on numerous occasions to discuss aspects of grant follow up on points raised by the right hon. Members funding, and that he has never even received the courtesy for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) and for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). of a reply. I find that absolutely reprehensible. I have I have a great deal of respect for both of them, and I spent a long time talking to him, and I have no reason shall miss the right hon. Gentleman. It was slightly to disbelieve him. He tells me categorically that he has disappointing, however, if not entirely surprising, that corresponded with Ministers in the Welsh Assembly both of them chose to repeat a rather one-sided view of and that none of them had the courtesy even to write the economic history of this country of the past 20 years. back to him, which is extraordinary. 519 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 520

Mr. Bone also raised the issue of the green economy, was certainly published while the country was being led which we all agree needs to be developed in this country. by a Conservative Prime Minister. No one at that time Wales could be a beacon of excellence for green jobs. disputed the central basis of the report. He raised concerns about the Energy Technologies Institute, which is partly funded by Government money and Lembit Öpik rose— ought to support industries in the United Kingdom, but appears to spend a lot of its money supporting industries David T. C. Davies: I will give way in a moment, from other parts of Europe. If we are serious about because I am not afraid to debate the real history of this developing the green economy and green jobs, we need country with anyone. to ensure that any public money from British taxpayers There were probably arguments about the way in is spent on British businesses. which the health service would be introduced, but there On training and so on, the rosy picture that the is no doubt that no Member wanted to see people dying Secretary of State paints does not correspond with in the streets, and that had not happened before the what is seen by my constituents. In that regard, I want introduction of the national health service. It did not to raise the issue of apprenticeships. Recently, a 20-year-old, happen afterwards either, but I am afraid that thousands Damien Radnor of Raglan, came to see me. He is a very of needless deaths are taking place now. I am not enthusiastic, intelligent and articulate young man, who talking just about the recent ones that we all know looked around and realised that the country had a about. This has been going on for far too long, and one shortage of electricians. He spent two years in a local of the reasons, I believe, is that anyone who tries to college near Monmouthshire—just outside my constituency, make any criticism of the NHS is immediately accused but that is not important—training to become an electrician. of wanting to get rid of it, although in fact most He needs to spend a further year working as an apprentice, Conservative Members want to see it function better. with an electrician, to complete his course in college. Despite his having written to more than 40 people—I Lembit Öpik: I hold the hon. Gentleman in high have seen the letters—all have had to turn him down. regard, and I am grateful to him for giving way. I should They are not taking on apprentices, for a variety of say, however, that Beveridge—who was a Liberal—would reasons: employment legislation makes it difficult; there quite evidently have failed in his ambition to introduce is no real money to support employers who want to take the NHS had the Conservatives won the general election on apprentices. Consequently, everyone’s time and money in 1945. The hon. Gentleman has accused other hon. is being wasted. This young man gave up a well-paid job Members of rewriting history, but what he has said to study, and spent two years of his life and a lot of constitutes the most flagrant rewriting of history that money on the process. Presumably, the college course we have heard all day. would have been subsidised in some way by the Government, so taxpayer’s money was being spent as David T. C. Davies: I look forward to returning to well. At the end of it, a bright and enthusiastic young that piece of history on another occasion, but now I man, who wants to go out and work and is willing to want to talk about the present. write to everyone he can think of, is unable to get a placement as an apprentice. The Secretary of State may I am a user of the NHS. All my children were born in shake his head, but I could introduce him to that young NHS hospitals, except one who was born at home with man, and I assure him that that is exactly what has the help of NHS staff. One of my children has had to happened. More needs to be done to help young people spend consecutive Christmases in hospital, once in eastern who want apprenticeships. Europe and once in the United Kingdom. The staff in both hospitals were superb—I have no complaint We have heard, of course, about the national health whatsoever about them—but the standards in a not service. Someone said that it had been invented by particularly prosperous part of rural eastern Europe Labour in the teeth of opposition. That is the sort of were at least as good as those in Abergavenny. one-sided view of history that Labour Members get away with all too often. The reality is that people were In that hospital in rural Hungary my daughter had not dying in the streets before the health service was her own room, as did everyone else. There was always a formed. Moreover, it was not really a Labour Government doctor on the ward, never more than a few paces away, who invented it. If anything, it was invented by a civil 24 hours a day. That is not the experience of people who servant called Beveridge during the second world war. come into contact with the NHS in the United Kingdom. It was accepted by Members in all parts of the House So please let us not tell ourselves that the NHS is the that the national health service, in one form or another, envy of the world. It is not. There are problems with it, would be introduced after the second world war regardless and we should not be blind to them. We should not of who won the election. A health service was already allow ourselves to ignore any criticisms of the organisation functioning—[Interruption.] Hon. Members may shake of the NHS for fear of criticising the staff, and I should their heads and laugh if they want to. make it clear that I do not in any way criticise the staff. Let me give an example of how the health service is Albert Owen: The social policies devised by Beveridge, letting people down. Another of my constituents, 93-year- which were introduced by the Labour Government in old Reginald Lewis, who is in the Severn View residential the NHS more than 60 years ago, were opposed by the home in Chepstow, asked me to raise his case in the Conservative party at the time. That is a fact and is on House today. He served in the armed forces, he has the record of the House, and the hon. Gentleman ought worked all his life, and he is paying his own fees at the to acknowledge it. nursing home of £1,700 a month. He has an open leg wound. He says that the nursing staff have been excellent David T. C. Davies: What I will acknowledge is this. in trying to treat him, but his condition is simply not Beveridge’s report was published in, I believe, 1942. It getting better. He went to see a doctor, and was told—a 521 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 522

[David T. C. Davies] outstanding work in our area in the well-known organisation SAFFA—the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families 93-year-old man who had served in the armed forces—that Association. he would have to wait six to 12 months before anyone We should also remember the work of the Royal from the NHS would even look at the wound or do British Legion. I am sure many Members on both sides anything about it. That is absolutely disgraceful. of the House would join me in endorsing the RBL Finally, as issues affecting elderly people were rightly general election manifesto. Many of my constituents mentioned earlier, I shall now raise the issue of pensions. have drawn it to my attention, and I am delighted to The Secretary of State was responsible, in one of his endorse that manifesto. Two of them, Tom Fellows and many previous guises, for setting up the Pension Protection Roger Sheppard, have been doing some excellent work Fund, which comes into effect when companies go in recent years. I wish to draw particular attention to bankrupt by, effectively, taking over the pension scheme two policies in the manifesto, which have already been and paying people 90 per cent. of their pension. It is not referred to by many Members: a bad idea to give the Secretary of State credit where it “Make the NHS priority treatment system work for veterans is due, and some is due in this instance, so I shall give it with injuries caused by Service in the Armed Forces” to him without any malice. However, he seems to have overlooked one important point: a lot of people whose and, “Tackle poverty among” older veterans and widows. companies went bankrupt and whose schemes were As many Members have said, this Welsh day debate taken over by the PPF have been let down because prior provides us with a welcome opportunity to reflect on to working in the companies that went bankrupt they our work over the last year and to look forward to the had other jobs. future. In the past year, we all looked back on what I, Mrs. Jordan came to see me about this matter. She and many Members on both sides of the House, would had worked for a different company for a number of call a decade of achievement in democratic devolution, years, and she transferred her pension rights into the or as my distinguished predecessor, Lord Morris of new company, which then went bankrupt. It was taken Aberavon, rightly and often termed it, the repatriation over by the PPF and she was told she would get a of power to Wales. pension of about 90 per cent., which is £13,000 a year. I am proud to say, as an enthusiastic supporter of That was not good news for her, but neither was it a democratic devolution, that the Select Committee on life-changing disaster. The PPF subsequently discovered Welsh Affairs, which I chair, has had a growing and a legal loophole, however, which allowed it to reduce always benign role in that process, both scrutinising her pension by the amount that had been paid in from Government policy and, in more recent times, working the previous company, because when the PPF takes with our Welsh Assembly colleagues on pre-legislative over a scheme, it takes over only that scheme, and only scrutiny of LCOs. In a remarkably busy, almost frenetic, the pension rights paid directly into the company that five years, the Committee has held 43 inquiries, ranging has gone bankrupt are credited towards the individual, from the mammoth globalisation inquiry that took not any previous pension moneys from other companies place over 18 months, where we called senior Burberry that have been paid into the scheme of the company executives to account, to the one-day sitting on the that has gone bankrupt. Effectively, therefore, Mrs. Jordan Legal Services Commission. I pay tribute to my hon. has been robbed of a large sum of her pension, and the Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Julie Morgan) capital money has gone to the PPF, which is using it for for her work in that field. When we held that inquiry we other things. I acknowledge that that point is a little successfully called Government Ministers to account. I complicated, but there will be many people who are in should add that 25 of these inquiries took place in the the same position as Mrs. Jordan in that they have lost past two years, when we were also undertaking our out on money that should be rightfully theirs as a result LCO work. of this loophole. We should not be using legal loopholes when dealing with paying people’s pensions. We should It has been an exceptionally busy last year for the be looking at what is right and fair, and doing the right Welsh Affairs Committee. About half our work over thing by people. the past 12 months has been on scrutinising LCOs and I have probably spoken for long enough, as I want thus devolving further powers to the Assembly. As we every hon. Member who wishes to do so to be able to have heard from other hon. Members, these included contribute. I shall conclude by echoing the words of a the Welsh language LCO, which has now received Royal previous, well-known Labour leader. What will happen Assent and has paved the way for new Measures relating if Labour gets re-elected again? Based on the experience to the Welsh language to be passed in the Assembly. The of my constituents, I warn you not to try to set up a publication of our enlightened and unanimous report business; I warn you not to try to better yourself by was arguably our greatest achievement over the past five going to university or trying to get an apprenticeship; I years. The environment LCO has also completed its warn you not to get ill; and I warn you not to get old. progress and will enable Wales to lead the way in tackling pollution and litter and in encouraging recycling. 4.2 pm The Committee recently reported on its 15th LCO Dr. Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): May I begin by and has now completed work on all the LCOs that have paying tribute to all the Welsh members of our armed been laid before the House. That is surprising, given forces in Afghanistan, particularly those who, sadly, that two years ago many people outside this House have been killed in the service of our country, including would not have believed that we could have done this Corporal Dean John from my constituency? We should work. Despite much doom and gloom in those quarters— also not forget their families, many of whom are very people were daunted by what they described as active in voluntary organisations. For example, Dean’s “complexity” and did not understand that all legislative mother, Mrs. Deborah John, is very active and doing processes are complex—we did win through in the end. 523 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 524

I wish to thank all the members of the Committee for Hart. It highlighted the possibility that Wales could their dedication and commitment to completing this take a lead on the health and rehabilitation of veterans scrutiny work in a timely and very thorough fashion. across the UK. It was an illuminating evidence session Whether the latest LCOs complete their remaining and I can see Members nodding about how important parliamentary stages will depend on the date of the Mrs. Hart’s evidence was. Her strong desire to work general election, but my Committee has worked hard to with the Ministry of Defence and with other devolved make sure that they have every chance of doing so. Administrations provided a policy possibility that the I am pleased that our work has been recognised Committee warmly welcomed and that it will consider elsewhere, and not only in debates in this House. For closely if we have the good fortune to be Members of example, it was recognised by Sir Gus O’Donnell, the this House in the new Parliament. head of the civil service, when he gave evidence to us Secondly, the willingness of senior civil servants to recently as part of our current inquiry into the relationship give frank and insightful observations on strategy and between Wales and Whitehall. It will be the last major performance in our Wales and Whitehall inquiry was inquiry that the Committee undertakes during this another recent welcome development. The process of Parliament, but it will also be one of the most important. devolution needs transparency and constant analysis as It was inspired by a short inquiry that we completed last well as self-criticism from politicians and officials alike. year into the decision by the Legal Services Commission Now that they have come out of the shadows, so to to scale down its operations in Cardiff. That decision speak, we want to encourage these senior civil servants was taken without consulting the Welsh Assembly to come under the spotlight regularly—perhaps appearing Government or the Wales Office, and with no regard to before us once a year. increasing legal divergence post devolution. As a result I am sure that senior civil servants, whether they are of our inquiry, the LSC has not implemented its planned in Cardiff Bay or Whitehall, will wish to be measured changes and is reconsidering its decisions. That is just by the watchword of universities throughout Wales: one example of a decision being made centrally with no “Goreu Awen Gwirionedd”, or “The best inspiration is proper awareness of its potential impact on Wales. truth.” That has certainly been the inspiration of our Equally, we have also heard about decisions being Committee in its service to the people of Wales. It has made in Cardiff without full regard for the impact they been a privilege to have chaired it over the past five may have on those needing to cross the border regularly. years. We have benefited from constructive working We have continued to investigate cross-border services relations with two Secretaries of State and two First for people who travel between England and Wales for Ministers. I pay tribute to them all and to the dedicated health care and education, as well as the quality of and professional work of Select Committee staff. cross-border transport links. We believe that our work In conclusion, let me join others in paying tribute to in this area has improved access to hospitals and colleges all right hon. and hon. Friends and Members who are for those living near the border, who have sometimes standing down at the next general election. In particular, suffered from gaps in provision when the different policies may I pay personal tribute to my right hon. Friend the of the UK Government and Welsh Assembly Government Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig), a successful Wales were not properly joined up. Office and Defence Minister who has worked so hard We were particularly pleased to have the opportunity for miners’ compensation and for our veterans? His to take evidence jointly with the Assembly’s Enterprise insightful and independent thinking will be sorely missed and Learning Committee on cross-border rail links. I in the House, and we all admired the contribution that warmly welcome the announcement, as I am sure that he made to the debate earlier. I wish him and Jennifer colleagues from all parties will, that the great western well in the future. If he stands for public office again main line between Swansea and London is to be electrified, elsewhere, I have offered to be his election agent. as our Committee strongly recommended shortly before the announcement was made. We will shortly publish a 4.14 pm follow-up report to our cross-border inquiry. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I echo the The evidence we have taken during our current inquiry observations that have just been made regarding our into Wales and Whitehall has shown that devolution retiring friends. requires both Cardiff and London to be committed to communicating properly with one another and considering If people did not have problems, we would not have the impacts of their policies at both ends of the M4. jobs, and we sometimes forget the point that David Wales’s interests must be considered when UK policy is Lloyd George, who was unquestionably the greatest developed, but the communication problems we have Prime Minister of the 20th century, made when he said: uncovered do not go only in one direction. It is important “The finest eloquence is that which gets things done”. not only that Members of this House understand that, That is never truer than in periods of economic trouble, but that the media should convey that message. I think and these are tough times. In Montgomeryshire, we that the situation is improving, with greater awareness have been very busy with closures, with downsizing and being shown by all parties, perhaps as a result of some with trying to prevent the worst effects of the recession of my Committee’s inquiries—and I am sure that our from taking hold. Indeed, we have recently had problems forthcoming report will contribute to improving with the potential loss of another 180 jobs, and it has relationships still further. been almost a full-time occupation to try to protect Let me now make some positive observations about them. the coming period on the basis of recent oral evidence There have also been threats to our local high schools. given to our Committee. First, we had a very constructive The Conservatives leaked a document that caused evidence session with the Welsh Assembly Government considerable upset and panic because it suggested that Minister for Health and Social Services, Mrs. Edwina high schools might be closed. There is always an ongoing 525 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 526

[Lembit Öpik] Mrs. Gillan: I have been listening to the hon. Gentleman and want to put him out of his agony. The leader of my threat to services in our local hospitals, which remain party, the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), open in name but which still suffer, to an extent, from has said that he wants to reduce the number of politicians reduced services because the health board seems to and the size of Parliament, which has burgeoned and want to save money by taking away cherished and got too big. Like me, however, he has also said that long-loved local facilities. There is a virtual absence of Wales will not be disproportionately represented at mental health services; there is an ongoing dispute Westminster. It will be represented in exactly the same about wind farms in the area; there are questions about way as any other part of the UK. flooding; and there is gridlock in Newtown as a result I was in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency the other of new traffic arrangements. There is even talk of some day with our candidate there, Glyn Davies. We were kind of enormous monster living at Clywedog dam. I discussing this matter, and it is a comfort to know that shall return to those issues later. under a Conservative Government Wales will always be With a general election looming, it is natural for us to represented in this place on exactly the same basis as look briefly at what is on offer. I think that I am fairly any other part of the UK. I hope that that puts the hon. clear about what we get with the Labour party. It has Gentleman out of his agony. been in government and we know its strengths and weaknesses. Incidentally, something that has almost Lembit Öpik: I am sure that the whole House is been forgotten is the difficulty that the Secretary of grateful for that clarification, but I am slightly disappointed, State for Wales experienced when he had to take a back as I thought that the hon. Lady would clarify her seat after various accusations were made about him. As party’s position on the banks. All the evidence suggests I said then, it is a great shame when pressure from that the economic policies being promoted by the opponents in the media can force the temporary demotion Conservative party over the past two years would have of good politicians. I am very pleased that he not only had a catastrophic impact on the British economy, and cleared his name but recovered his original position. thus on the constituents of Montgomeryshire. That was the just outcome of some very unjust accusations. We know what Labour offers—I suppose there has Mrs. Gillan: Will the hon. Gentleman give way again? been some debate about that today—but I am very concerned that we do not really know what the Lembit Öpik: I will, as the hon. Lady seems very keen Conservatives offer. That must be a matter of concern to respond. to me as I consider what could happen to my constituents should there be a Conservative Government. There Mrs. Gillan: May I recommend that the hon. Gentleman tends to be a sense of defeatism locally at times from the reads my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor’s Conservatives in Montgomeryshire about various matters, Mais lecture on the new economic model when he goes and I see the same attitude reflected here in Westminster. away from the Chamber? It is an attitude not of delivery but of criticism, but that is not what our country needs or what my constituents David Wright (Telford) (Lab): It will only take a few want. seconds. Mr. Paul Murphy: The hon. Gentleman wonders Mrs. Gillan: Actually, it will take a little longer, as it is what the impact of a Conservative Government would a very worthy document. It proposes a be on his constituency—perhaps the first impact would be that his constituency would not exist at all. What are “new system of financial regulation, with the Bank of England his views on that? back in charge of controlling the overall level of debt in the economy”, Lembit Öpik: I have never got very excited about and a discussions on the Boundary Commission, but the Leader “new fiscal policy framework, with an independent Office for of the Opposition seems to have set the hare running by Budget Responsibility”. making some heady claims about constitutional reforms The document also makes it clear that phase 1 of our that would require a reduction in the number of approach will be the independent OBR, and phase 2 an constituencies. Indeed, the Liberal Democrats have said emergency Budget within 50 days. On phase 3, it says something about that as well. My difficulty with that that and other policies is that they always seem half-baked. We do not get the detail and we do not really understand “over the Summer we will work flat out to conduct the detailed departmental Spending Review for the years after 2011”. what the specific intentions of a Conservative Government would be, so we are forced to look at the past. When it I recommend the lecture for the hon. Gentleman’s reading. comes to the banks, I am extremely concerned that the act of electing a Conservative Government, would, by Lembit Öpik: It is my birthday next week, so perhaps its nature, cause a second recession. We know, from the hon. Lady will send me a bound copy. If she does, I what the Government have had to respond to from assure her that I will read little else between now and Conservative Members, that if the Tories had been in 6May. charge during the banking collapse, the banks would Once again, however, the hon. Lady remains silent on have been left to fail. the core point that I am making—had the Government There was a degree of vacillation in their policy, but been Conservative, the banks would have failed. A the Tories seem to want to make a virtue of the fact that Conservative Government would have stood by and they would not have supported the action to protect the done nothing to prevent that. banks taken at that time, and in extremis, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mrs. Gillan: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 527 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 528

Lembit Öpik: I am willing to give way if I have morality—of selling off the very shares on which any misunderstood what Conservative policy was at the Government of any colour will depend in order to time, but I doubt whether the hon. Lady can say anything accrue assets to pay back some of the debt? I am happy different. to give way if the hon. Lady can do that. I was also confused earlier, because I did not receive a Mrs. Gillan: What I want to say is simply that my satisfactory answer to my question about the minimum right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer wage and a minimum income. For a long time, the supported the rescue of the banks. Liberal Democrats have supported the idea of a minimum income, and for one glorious moment I thought that the Lembit Öpik: We need to go back to the evidence. Conservatives supported it, too. If I put together the About two decades ago, the pound started falling in the answers that I received, however, it seems that under a exchange rate mechanism. What did the Conservative Conservative Government the Montgomeryshire public Government do? They threw away £12 billion, because could depend on neither serious support for the minimum they were vacillating and did not know what they needed wage nor support for a minimum income. I do not to do protect sterling. That cost my constituents £20 million know where that would leave the least well-off in my in one afternoon. So we do not have to go very far back constituency, but it leaves me very worried that the to see that, when faced with a high-pressure decision safety net, which has been introduced and has been that needs to be made in a hurry—exactly as happened quite successful under this Government, would be removed. with the banks—the Conservatives failed to come up I am very fond of the hon. Member for Monmouth with the goods. (David T. C. Davies), who is an outstanding character. The hon. Lady can believe anything she wants, but We have had some entertaining times together in his the record shows clearly what was said at the time. My constituency and he is welcome to come to mine any judgment is that the banks would have been allowed to time he likes, but for him to accuse others of rewriting fail, had there been a Conservative Government in history and then declaim that the Conservatives supported charge. That would have stopped us being a banking the idea of a national health service is probably the behemoth in the world, and turned us into an economic most laughable commentary since Lieutenant-Commander banana republic. This country’s economic credibility Woodroffe’s inebriated BBC broadcast from the royal would have failed. naval review at Spithead in 1937. [Interruption.] Which The outcome could be even worse, now. Perhaps the I thoroughly recommend. hon. Lady will correct me if I have misunderstood the Conservative promise to sell off shares in the banks Mr. Paul Murphy: Tell us what he said. owned by the Government. They are the very asset that Lembit Öpik: I am sure that YouTube will get a spike stand to pay off a large proportion of the debt. We all this evening. understand how that works: the shares were bought at a The idea that the national health service is safe in very low price and they will accrue value over time as Conservative hands ignores the lessons of history and things—hopefully—improve. the thousands of beds that were lost under the previous We are talking about the shares accruing value to the Conservative Administration. I have had to work very tune of hundreds of billions of pounds. We do not need hard with local communities over the past 13 years to to be economists to work out how the value gained protect what we have, and I just do not believe that it should be used, as the matter is self-evident, but we would be easy to do so under a regime that, presumably, need to think twice when the economic policy of a would have some bearing on Conservative policy and, Government in waiting is to sell off the assets when they at least, distantly echo past Tory behaviour. are cheap. There is another irony. How many times have we David T. C. Davies: I suspect that I would be quickly heard the Conservatives criticise the former Chancellor ruled out of order if I were to follow the line that I want and current Prime Minister for selling gold when it was to. The hon. Gentleman is fair-minded, and he and I low in value? In my judgment, that was a mistake, but have supported important road safety campaigns in the Conservatives are about to commit an even bigger Abergavenny in order to prevent people having to use mistake by selling those shares at this time. That could NHS facilities, but surely he does not believe that prior cost the constituents of Montgomeryshire as much as to 1945 people were left to drop dead in the street. I do £200 million. not believe that, not least because one of my grandparents was a doctor, and they made a point of ensuring that all There is another problem. If the Conservatives sell those who needed health care got health care, whether off those shares, they will have to find money from they could afford it or not. It is a calumny on all those somewhere, but how will they make it? With a colour who served as doctors prior to 1945 to suggest otherwise. photocopier? I do not think so. They cannot depend on alternative sources of income, and they will not have an Lembit Öpik: There is a contradiction in the hon. opportunity—a magic box—to print money in order to Gentleman’s comment. First, he implies that we do not fill that void. If they sell off the shares cheaply, the need the NHS, and perhaps that is a more prescient practical consequence for Montgomeryshire, Wales and, observation of the Conservative party’s true feelings indeed, the whole country will be a tax increase higher towards the NHS than anything else that has been said. than that that we already anticipate. We would also be Secondly, and to answer his point directly, there was likely to see more severe cuts in public services. rudimentary provision for the general public before I did economics at university for a period, and I see 1945, but the whole point of the NHS was that people very clearly that we cannot pretend to have money that who could not afford health care died sooner. Indeed, does not exist. Will Conservative Front Benchers please, as a direct result of the NHS, life expectancy has therefore, clarify the economic logic—let alone the measurably improved in this country. 529 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 530

David T. C. Davies: We have only to look at the What action should we take to resolve the issues in hospitals in London to know that we have been building Montgomeryshire? It is a matter of hard graft. All hospitals for people who could not afford health care Members know how demanding our case loads are as a since about the 14th century. Surely the hon. Gentleman direct result of the circumstances in which we find recognises that. ourselves. However, I can report some good news, which I mentioned in an earlier intervention. Newtown was Lembit Öpik: We did not have an NHS in the looking at 180 job losses as a result of Shop Direct’s 14th century. If we look not at the 14th century but at downsizing of its call centres. Following considerable the early 20th century, we see a direct relationship work with Shop Direct, Joy Jones, the outstanding between wealth and life expectancy. Sadly, there still is mayor of Newtown, and the Union of Shop, Distributive one to an extent, but the differential has been reduced. and Allied Workers, which has been very proactive, I It is interesting that we are arguing about whether we am happy to report that Shop Direct has changed its should have an NHS or not. That, I am afraid, is the position and postponed any closure until December. debate that we might have under a Conservative That gives us room to breathe. I hope that we can find a Government. I do not suggest that, realistically, the long-term solution with Shop Direct or with another Tories would demolish the NHS, but there would be company that takes over the business. much greater dependence on the private sector, and the differentials would increase. There is no private hospital The outcome is also a credit to Ministers. I came to in Montgomeryshire, and most of my constituents could the Wales Office in urgent need of support, and I am not afford to go to one. I am concerned that our happy to say that the Secretary of State and Under- difficulties with access on a cross-border basis to the Secretary could not have been more helpful; I am really Royal Shrewsbury hospital would increase if that change grateful for their support. I should also mention the of Government took place. Prime Minister, who expressed his support at Prime Minister’s questions and took action behind the scenes. My other concerns relate to other issues, although I That was a cross-party success story and 180 people still shall not go through every single one. Wind turbines are have their jobs thanks, in part, to the Government’s work. a big issue in my constituency. I am on the record as being sceptical about the benefits of having mass wind Similarly, I got support from Ministers in the case of farms plastered all over my constituency, given that Regal Fayre, a new company setting up in Montgomery they produce a relatively miniscule amount of power in that could produce up to 100 jobs in time. It was a comparison with the disruption that they cause. collaborative effort, in which Finance Wales and the There is a particular problem with the transportation Welsh Assembly Government were very supportive. Lord of the thousands of lorry loads that go through my Mandelson, the Secretary of State for everything, also constituency. I have sought clarification in the past, but supported us and made some direct interventions when I still do not know whether there would be a change in we were having trouble with finance. policy if there were a change of Government. I would Now let me say something that is slightly unfashionable: be very happy to praise the Conservatives, if they said I found RBS very helpful on this occasion. It relaxed that they supported my position—that is, that my some of its conditions in order to make the loan that constituency should not be modified into one giant was required. That took months to arrange, but had wind farm. RBS not come good in the end, we would not have these I happen to be pro-nuclear, although my party is not; jobs. Not everything that the banks are doing is all bad. I hope to persuade others in my party to take my I am pleased to report that another small business position. I am sure that wind turbines on the scale that I facing closure was helped by HSBC personnel coming am talking about will do more harm to my constituency to a meeting—I was there as well—and renegotiating than good for the environment. the debts of that business. There are some glimmers of hope and good examples of the banks responding to Mr. David Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman agree the political direction that has been requested by the that the problem with onshore wind farms is the Welsh Government. Assembly’s technical advice note 8, or TAN 8? That I have to make a point of a very parochial nature. imposes a positive presumption in favour of wind farm Despite rumours to the contrary, Carpetright in Newtown development, and it is virtually impossible to challenge. is not closing, so could people please stop going in there Lembit Öpik: I have problems with TAN 8 as well. looking for the closing down sale? The people there are The first is the presumption that the hon. Gentleman perfectly happy, and it is probably a rumour spread by has described. The second is the designation of specific somebody else. areas, which necessarily masses wind farms in places On schools, I hope that we have a period of calm in such as mid-Wales. I hope that I will persuade others in Powys when we look at the issues on a more rational the Chamber to take a new look at wind turbines, which basis. The councillors ultimately have to make the decision, generate the most expensive electricity that we produce. but it seems clear to me that no high school in north As I have said, I see nuclear power as an alternative. I Powys should be closed. The bigger threat is to the sixth certainly do not see turbines on the scale that I am forms, and that is where the debate most usefully lies. I talking about as doing anything other than harming the am pleased to see that local community groups, parents aspect of my community and causing disruption for up and teachers are leading the campaigns in each of the to seven years, while they are constructed—and for six high schools in my area, which is as it should be. The relatively little benefit. less politicised and the more rational this is, the better Incidentally, I applaud Plaid Cymru’s elegant solution for all concerned. to the nuclear debate; as I understand it, the party is I am very concerned about mental health provision in implacably opposed to nuclear power, except on Anglesey. Powys. We cost ourselves far more than we save by not I salute the tidiness of that position. having appropriate mental health provision in mid-Wales. 531 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 532

I hope that over time Ministers can have conversations I think back to those days, when I looked for help for with their opposite numbers in Cardiff to see whether my people in my constituency who were facing repossession we can make a direct intervention and provide a much and those who had lost their jobs, and help was there more acceptable level of service. none. The Government did not change the rules on Newtown is currently suffering gridlock, because the support for mortgage interest payments, as the current council “improved” the traffic management in the centre Government have—the waiting period was 39 weeks of the town. When it switched the lights on, it more or then, and now it is 13 weeks. That has been a major less switched the traffic off. An appreciable part of the contribution to keeping people in their homes. There work over the next few days will be trying to convince it was no future jobs fund and no new deal then, and so to go back to where we were before with a roundabout no real help for the unemployed. It was a tragic period instead of lights. Such issues are not glamorous, but for many individuals who lost not only their job but they preoccupy MPs most of the time. I may have to call their home. on Ministers once again if the council is intransigent The difference between that home-grown recession and bloody-mindedly refuses to heed the obvious distress and the global recession that we have faced over the of a community that is unable to drive from one side of past 18 months is that Government reactions have been a small town to the other. a world apart. I am absolutely confident that the measures The election will obviously be on 6 May, and we all that have been taken, which my right hon. Friend the look forward to a new Parliament and the new challenges Secretary of State listed—the car scrappage scheme, the that it will bring. For my part, I can only conclude with tax deferral, the future jobs fund, help for people to stay the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion in their homes and so on—have had a significant impact (Mark Williams), who turned to me earlier and said, on reducing the effect of the recession. As others have “Actually, this is a pretty wonderful job, isn’t it?” For all said, even after this deep recession, unemployment levels the difficulties, troubles and challenges, I still think that are still a lot better than they were back in the 1990s. it is a noble profession. It is still an honour to serve here, The hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) working together with my local Assembly Member, the said that we always get such arguments in these debates gentle giant, Mick Bates, and his soon-to-be-successor and in the Welsh Grand Committee, but it is worth in 2011, Wyn Williams, the outstanding politician of his remembering that the policy decisions in the two generation, who are up for the challenge. I am proud of circumstances were completely different. They were taken my team in Newtown and proud of the constituency by two different Governments and, as I have said, the that I represent, and I hope to do even more if that is way that Government decisions have helped people in the will of the people of Montgomeryshire. the current experience is worlds away from what happened in the early 1990s. 4.38 pm I do not recognise the description of some parts of Wales that certain Opposition Members have given Nick Ainger (Carmarthen, West and South when talking about their constituencies. As I have travelled Pembrokeshire) (Lab): It is always interesting to follow around Wales, as an individual Member and formerly the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), as a Minister, I have seen the investment that has taken who always aims to entertain, if not to inform us about place on an unprecedented scale. I can give examples of Liberal Democrat policy. I am reminded of a story services that have been provided in my constituency and about the late Lord Howells. When he was the Member elsewhere. There is the new Tenby college hospital, the for Ceredigion, he announced at a public meeting that £8 million refurbishment of the Pembroke Dock hospital, Liberal Democrat policy on water was that it should all the new A and E at West Wales general hospital, the be free. Afterwards he was challenged about this and brand-new £30 million-plus Carmarthen high school, told that it was not Liberal Democrat policy, and he the upgrading of primary schools and the building of said, “No, but it should be.” I have a feeling that the new ones in Jeffreyston, in Pembroke Dock and throughout hon. Gentleman is following his policy in that regard. the area. There has been huge investment in Pembrokeshire college, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Lembit Öpik: With the exception of the fact that I Preseli Pembrokeshire. New schools are being built; always highlight party contradictions as I go along. there is a new A and E unit and other development at Withybush general hospital; and a brand new leisure Nick Ainger: My right hon. Friend the Member for centre recently opened in Haverfordwest. That is my Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) referred to his first contribution experience of west Wales. to the Wales day debate back in 1988, which reminded The hon. Gentleman complains about the need to me of my first such contribution in 1993. I am not sure upgrade the A40, but as I speak, a completely new whether it was on 1 March, but it was close to it. I could section is being upgraded. Admittedly, it is not a dual not make a very positive contribution, because of the carriageway, but unfortunately, the traffic flows do not situation that my constituency was in. The second recession require one. I would have loved to see a dual carriageway under the Conservative Government had hit my there, but I am a pragmatist. We get what we can afford, constituency particularly hard. From 1981, Pembrokeshire and unfortunately, we do not have the resources to dual basically stayed in recession. There was a second recession that section of the A40. in the early 1990s, and by January 1993, the Pembroke and Tenby travel-to-work area, which is basically the Albert Owen: My hon. Friend will be aware that the south Pembrokeshire part of my constituency under its port of Holyhead is now linked via the A55 all the way current name, had the worst unemployment not only of to Chester, but for a period in the 1980s, it stopped on any part of Wales but of any part of the UK. More the Anglesey side of the bridge—it was not completed than 2,600 people there were claiming unemployment by the Conservatives owing to a lack of money. It took benefit. a new Government to deal with that, albeit under the 533 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 534

[Albert Owen] caused that particular problem. The good news is that the US and other countries consider this to be a major private finance initiative, which I was uncomfortable issue and the IMF is also looking at it. It will take with, but we now have a completed A55. It is therefore a co-ordinated global action. little rich for Conservatives to say that they are all for The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham linking ports by dualling roads, when they had 18 years (Mrs. Gillan) mentioned the RBS bonuses, and said to do so but failed. that only those earning less than £39,000 would receive Nick Ainger: Indeed. My hon. Friend makes his point a bonus— very well. Mrs. Gillan: According to the Lobby briefing. We can be incredibly proud of what we have achieved in the past 12 years or so. We have seen real improvements in the quality of the services that are provided to our Nick Ainger: Well, the Lobby briefing was wrong constituents, including in health and education, and we then. Those earning less than £39,000 will receive their have been able to encourage employment. That we have bonus in cash. Those earning more will receive their maintained relatively low interest rates has been a huge substantial bonuses in the form of shares paid over assistance to small businesses. Back in the 1990s, interest three years, but if their performance over that time is rates were 15 per cent., and mortgage rates were even deemed to have fallen off, the bonus will be clawed higher, which had a huge impact on our constituents’ back. The overall performance of the institution will quality of life and the viability of businesses. There has also be taken into account. been a big change, and we ought to be honest with Those arrangements are in line with the G20 ourselves about that. recommendations. However, the bonus culture has to The deficit that we face is clearly a major issue. As a change. There is a massive disconnect between the member of the Treasury Committee, I have heard of the financial services industry and the rest of the real effects and causes of the global recession in individual economy. People stand aghast when institutions that economies in the United States—which the Committee have caused them personally to lose their jobs, see their visited a couple of weeks ago—Frankfurt, Austria and businesses close and, in certain circumstances, lose their Hungary. There was a common theme. Countries homes, still have a culture of so-called performance-related throughout the world recognise, thank goodness, that at pay, with massive bonuses, the like of which is not the time of the collapse of Lehman Brothers, there was replicated in any other industry. If someone is paid co-ordinated action, which was led, I must say, by our £250,000 or £500,000 and their wages are doubled, own Prime Minister. The major part he played in forming tripled or even quadrupled, I cannot see how they can a consensus and driving through the necessary action is work any harder. There are only 24 hours in a day and acknowledged around the world. The good news is that seven days in a week. I cannot see how these huge the world responded in a co-ordinated way, and that we alleged incentives can actually act as any incentive at did not enter a serious depression, which we easily all. could have done. As the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire said, banks could have closed, and people might not Mr. David Jones: The hon. Gentleman refers to the have been able to withdraw their deposits, or get cash real economy to distinguish it from the banking and from cash machines. That was the reality we faced in financial sector. But is it not the case that the banking autumn 2008, but co-ordinated global action prevented sector has mushroomed exponentially under the Labour those things from happening. Government, whereas what he would presumably call There are two reasons for that, the first of which I the real economy—manufacturing industry—has declined have raised before in the House. Because of the crisis in Wales by a third? that followed the collapse of Lehman Brothers, it is not recognised to the extent it should be that from late 2007 Nick Ainger: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman to mid-2008—less than a year—we had the biggest is suggesting that we should take the axe to the financial spike in energy prices the world has ever seen. Oil went services sector. I am sure that his friend Boris Johnson, from around $70 a barrel to nearly $150 a barrel, which the Mayor of London, would take serious exception to was unprecedented. That had a serious impact, as did that. To be fair, we have seen a significant expansion of the rises in commodity prices for food, other forms of financial services in Wales, and Admiral is a very good energy and materials such as metals. Following that example of that. I am arguing not that the financial serious global problem, and building on it, came the services sector should be cut, but that we need to credit crunch and the global banking crisis. We must rebuild the real economy. tackle that issue. We must try to prevent the commodity The International Monetary Fund is absolutely right exchanges getting out of control as they did. There is to say that countries should not cut spending until the something wrong when the Governor of the Bank of recovery is well in place, but my understanding, from England writes to the Chancellor to inform him that the the shadow Chancellor’s speech last night, of Conservative consumer prices index has risen to 3.5 per cent. and one policy this week—I am not sure what it will be next of the three reasons he gives is that oil prices went up by week, because it seems to change regularly—is that he 70 per cent. in 2009—during the deepest recession that still wants to cut spending as soon as possible to address we have seen. Energy prices should have been falling as the deficit, if, God forbid, a Conservative Government demand was falling. Oil prices should have been falling are elected in May. However, the IMF is clear in saying or at least not reached their current level. that countries around the world should be very careful We need to tackle this problem globally and have about the timing of spending reductions. The recovery complete transparency on the commodity exchanges so is very fragile, not only in this country, but in the United that we do not have the speculative activity that has States and throughout the eurozone, where the growth 535 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 536 rate is now 0.1 per cent.—the same as ours. It would be with productivity and, in particular, the supervision and incredibly foolish and naïve to start a programme of management of contracts, and clear recommendations cutting back expenditure. The fear, rightly expressed by are made about that. the IMF, is that the world could be plunged back into However, I want to emphasise again how we come recession—and of all that that means. out of the recession and how we can build and develop A high proportion—about 36 per cent.—of those on the basis that exists now, and move into sustainable constituents of mine who are unemployed have a recovery. Part of that will involve decarbonisation of background in the construction industry, which is a far power generation. There are huge investments to be higher proportion than for virtually any other area in made, and Wales can benefit hugely from those. RWE is Wales, and possibly the UK. This Monday, there was a the main developer for the massive wind farm on the demonstration outside the Pembroke power station site Bristol channel. We have seen Wylfa being replaced, as demanding a high proportion of British jobs for British well as the gas-fired power station in my constituency, workers and so on. It was believed that a high proportion and there is a new power station in that of my hon. of the 500 people currently building the new power Friend the Member for Newport, East (Jessica Morden). station were not UK residents. In fact, the information There is a range of opportunities for various forms of provided by the main contractor indicates that more tidal power. That is the way to grow out of the recession; than 90 per cent. of the work force are from the UK, that is the way to recovery. I fear that the alternative with 40 per cent. from Pembrokeshire and nearly 60 per posed by the Conservatives could see my constituency cent.—57 per cent., I think—from Wales. returning to the position that it was in during the There is an issue though. As a result of the winding early 1990s. down of two major liquefied natural gas site projects, a 5.2 pm high proportion of people are seeking work on that site. Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Given the time I think that we can see a real improvement in how and the fact that a neighbouring hon. Member and people are notified of vacancies, and that the recruitment friend, the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), system can be radically improved. I hope, therefore, that wants to speak, I will be very quick. the contractors, including the main contractors, together with the main client, RWE, are considering that issue, I want to raise three or four issues relating to Ceredigion, so that many of the opportunities presented as the site all of which are economic in nature. The first is funding develops can go to local people with the right skills and for higher education and research in Wales. I am concerned experience, which have developed in Pembrokeshire over that the suggested restructuring of IBERS at Aberystwyth its many years of dealing with the petrochemical industry. university raises the prospect of up to 70 job losses. That is a blow not only to those individuals and the I want to make a general point about the engineering economy of north Ceredigion, but to the Welsh research and construction industry. I declare an interest: I am a base. Given the circumstances—a shortfall of £2.4 million member of Unite and my constituency receives support and a changed emphasis in research funding priorities—I from the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and should say from the outset that I understand the rationale Technicians. We have a huge opportunity, particularly behind the university’s strategy, but that does not mitigate in Wales, but throughout the UK as well, in the engineering the blow that north Ceredigion will face. This has been and construction industry, with the decarbonisation of an ongoing saga, affecting the funding of the plant power generation over the next 10 or 20 years. People breeding station, of which my noble Friend Lord Elystan- are talking about £20 billion—at least—in investment Morgan reminded me, the funding of the Institute of in new gas-fired power stations; in new coal-fired stations Grassland and Environmental Research and now the with carbon capture and storage; in nuclear power, such funding of IBERS. as that produced at Wylfa; in a massive increase in In the wake of the emergence of IBERS—the merger offshore wind and tidal energy; and even in the Severn of IGER with Aberystwyth university, with significant barrage, if that comes off. There are massive opportunities funding from the Welsh Assembly Government, which that the engineering and construction industry should has been greatly welcomed—we faced early concerns be able to benefit from and which should increase our about the high expectations of the university’s capacity work force. to compete in the global environment. I am sure that Those opportunities are as great as when North sea the university has the potential, the hope and the experience oil was being developed in the 1970s, so we need to to compete from a global perspective, but there are maximise the number of UK companies that win those great concerns among the work force. IBERS has chosen contracts and employ UK labour. The alternative is to focus its core research on the necessary areas of what happened at the Lindsey oil refinery at the Staythorpe climate change, biofuels and food security—a narrowing power station, where UK contractors were unsuccessful of its research. They are major issues now and they will in certain parts of the contract, and labour from Spain be major issues in the foreseeable future, but my concern and elsewhere was brought in to carry out part of it. is that we will lose the broad research base and that the The Gibson report, which was published in new focus could be too prescriptive. I have no doubt December, highlights what needs to be addressed. The that the expertise at IBERS will ensure that it remains recommendations are quite clear. One of the issues is competitive in the global market, but I worry that the that we have an ageing work force in the engineering agenda of the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and construction industry, with 65 per cent. of the work and Skills, in pursuing a narrow set of objectives for force being over 40, and 41 per cent. being over 50. We universities, will expose further education and research need to bring young people into the industry. One of to many commercial pressures. the recommendations of the Gibson report is that we There is also a broader picture, involving the relationship should double the number of on-site apprentices, from with the UK funding councils in their provision of 500 to 1,000, by 2011. There are also clear problems research funds. The university of Aberystwyth has always 537 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 538

[Mark Williams] We have heard a lot about the banks. At yesterday’s meeting, we heard stories of solvent businesses with had a good relationship with the Biotechnology and good prospects wanting to expand, but having to turn Biological Sciences Research Council. However, Wales down loan offers because the interest rates being offered receives only about 3 per cent. of the £2.8 billion that is were as high as 10 per cent. That is wrong, and it is bad distributed by the UK research councils. Applications for the economy. People do not understand the mismatch should obviously be assessed on merit but, given that between state ownership of a bank and the way in Wales accounts for 5 per cent. of the UK population, it which they are being treated on the high street. We are is reasonable to ask why Welsh higher education institutions experiencing particular difficulties in securing mortgages underperform in terms of research funding. That point on affordable section 106 properties, which is undermining was raised by the Welsh Affairs Committee, of which I attempts to expand affordable housing. I had a young am a member, and I believe that it needs to be highlighted couple in my constituency surgery last week. They had again. been promised a deal by one of the high street banks, but the terms of the deal have changed and they will IBERS offers outstanding value, not only to my now lose the property because they have no access to constituency but to Wales as a whole. It provides a core the 20 per cent. deposit that the bank is demanding of base of 300 skilled jobs. We used to be an objective them. They had been saving for the past seven years to 1 area, and we need those skilled jobs. I would be realise a deposit, but that property is now beyond their grateful if the Minister could tell me what representations means because the bank has changed its tune. he has made, and what plans he can outline for the institute’s future. I understand the university’s strategy The third issue that the small businesses raised was and its need to focus its research on the new environmental broadband provision. How many of my small businesses agenda, but we must none the less take a broader can function without it? This is not an issue about perspective on the research base. broadband speeds; the problem is one of no broadband provision at all. Of course we welcome the Government’s The Secretary of State mentioned the delegation of commitment to the universal service obligation but, as businesses from Cardigan that came with me to see him this week’s Business, Innovation and Skills Committee yesterday. Those business people had three fundamental report identified, we do not yet have a mechanism to concerns. A survey in the Daily Mail a year ago looked deliver broadband across Wales and the rest of the at the balance between public sector jobs and small United Kingdom. enterprises across the UK as a whole. Surprisingly, Briefly, I want to talk about the legacy of the post given that it is a large rural constituency, Ceredigion office closure programme. I recently hosted a reception was in the top 10, with 40 per cent. of our jobs coming by Consumer Focus Wales, which has drawn up a from the public sector. There are great pressures relating report on the matter. To be fair, hon. Members from all to education at the moment, as I have said. We rely on parties attended the reception to listen to its concerns. our county council and the national health service for Many of us remain implacably opposed to the post jobs. We also have a huge reliance on small businesses. office closures that took place, and we all share a desire The business people of Cardigan were concerned, to see the remaining network thrive. However, the report first, about the potential impact of the increase in found that the most disadvantaged communities in business rates, despite the remedial action that has been Wales have lost out, and that those closures have broken taken by the Assembly Government. It is clear that many community ties: elderly people, consumers with large areas of Wales are suffering as a result of the disabilities, those with long-term sickness, those on low revaluation process, including Aberystwyth and Cardigan, incomes and those who rely on public transport have and I know that my hon. Friend the Member for found it more difficult to access services. Many of my Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) could highlight areas constituents have had that experience. Outreach services of his constituency that are suffering as well. have had teething problems, and the Government still have a job to convince us that they are not just a staging Our meeting with the Secretary of State was very post to future closures. Hours of operation do not positive, and, to his credit, he agreed to take up these match up with public transport services and they make concerns with the First Minister. Some of the figures it difficult for many to access the post office, or post involved are quite staggering, with businesses facing office van, and there have even been incidents of vans increases in their business rates of between 25 and not being able to find a place to park. 40 per cent., sometimes equating to about £7,000 a year. I welcome the Government’s decision to consult on The highest reported increase in Cardigan was £12,000 additional funding streams for post offices, particularly a year. In a small town whose economy is reliant on the creation of a Post Office bank, which I support. The small businesses, such figures can make the difference Minister will surely understand the cynicism of many between having staff in a business and losing it completely. who feel that the move should have been made before I wish the Secretary of State well in his deliberations closure, not after. There was a huge mismatch at the with the First Minister. We need this point to be made, time of the network change programme. On the one because the general feeling is that many businesses that hand, there was the spectacle of closures, and on the face very high business rates are being ignored. other, there was the National Assembly sensibly and Those attending the meeting yesterday also made the wisely creating the post office diversification fund, for point about the lack of a threshold on corporation tax. which I pay tribute to it. People could not understand For a business that is just starting to be profitable, that why those things were not working in sync. I wish only is a kick in the teeth, and it makes the growth of a small that the UK Government had taken the lead of the business harder to achieve. The Secretary of State promised National Assembly on that. to raise that issue with the Chancellor, and I look My final point is a parochial but important one for forward to hearing the response that he gets. my constituents. We had assurances that the Driving 539 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 540

Standards Agency would continue to look for a suitable that they were not prepared to match public investment site for motorcycle testing facilities in west Wales, so that to help the company. It is disingenuous of the hon. my constituents would not have the choice of travelling Lady, on behalf of her party, to suggest that too little to Swansea or Shrewsbury. We had meetings with the was done too late, given that the Conservatives’ policy chief executive and the Minister with responsibility for was not to intervene to assist the company. road safety, I initiated a debate in Westminster Hall, and an assurance was received that the DSA would Mrs. Gillan: Given that the £48 million was forthcoming continue to look for a site in mid-Wales. A letter from from the hon. Gentleman’s party and his party is still in the DSA last week says that it is now giving up on that government, may I ask whether it is still going into attempt. Will the Minister speak to his colleagues in the Anglesey’s economy? Department for Transport and the DSA, preferably before my meeting with its chief executive in the week Albert Owen: That is a very churlish remark. It shows after next, to see what can be done? We need such that the hon. Lady does not appreciate the amount of a facility. effort that was put into helping the main employer, In many ways, that epitomises how many of us feel in which had been there for some 30 years and had put west Wales—that we are still on the periphery, still left some £14 million per annum into the economy. It was out, and still forgotten. I will not be completely pessimistic; the company’s decision, on commercial grounds, to pull there has been good news. There has been more money out. I am certain that the next Labour Government will in schools in Ceredigion, and there are encouraging put a great deal of money into Anglesey, as have Labour signs about investment in the national health service. Governments over the past 13 years. If the company However, there is still a lot to do. If our National had taken up the offer, it could have continued to Assembly is to mean anything, particularly when we produce quality aluminium smelting for the future, but hand over powers—I hope that we have our referendum it chose not to do so. next autumn—it must be for the whole of Wales, not I want to say something about the green economy just the M4 corridor. and green tourism. My hon. Friend the Member for 5.13 pm Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire talked about decarbonisation, and I think that Wales has an Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to excellent opportunity to pioneer the process. That would follow the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mark Williams). bring quality jobs to Wales, and to my constituency in I am grateful for his work in support of my private particular. Member’s Bill, the Grocery Market Ombudsman Bill, which will be before the House next week. I will shorten my We have a fantastic asset in Wales which we must remarks, as I look forward to listening to the hon. promote to attract tourism, which is a very important Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr (Adam industry. Some £215 million has gone into the local Price), if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as it economy of Ynys Môn from tourism alone. That equates will probably be his last chance to speak in a Welsh to the employment of about 4,000 full-time equivalent affairs debate. I pay tribute to him and other hon. workers to develop what I think is a very good product. Members who are voluntarily stepping down. He and I Last year was a difficult year for the economy throughout were elected on the same day, and we agree on many Wales and especially in my constituency, as well as in things, particularly social policies. We do not agree on the rest of the United Kingdom. We should applaud the the constitutional issues, which I will let him develop in resilience shown by the tourism industry. It had a difficult his speech. I wish him well in his new chosen career. time, but it took advantage of the rate of the pound I also want to pay tribute to our armed forces in against the euro to promote Wales, including Anglesey. Wales, especially those on active service overseas in Last March I held an Anglesey day in the House of Afghanistan. I pay special tribute to the Royal Air Commons, which was a showcase for Ynys Môn. I Force and the excellent job it does. Many of its members think it important for us to highlight the positive assets have been trained in my constituency, in RAF Valley on of our constituencies. I am not merely being parochial. Ynys Môn, which is now a centre of excellence and has Anglesey is the gateway to Snowdonia, and many great seen a lot of investment for the future, for fast-jet activities take place there. We have scenic beauty in trainers, pilots and search and rescue. north Wales, and a proud history, culture and heritage. I was going to be very positive about the future, but I We have a unique brand in Wales, and I think that we must take issue with a comment made by the hon. should sell it around the world. We should all work Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) together to promote the great outdoors. There is a about Anglesey Aluminium. She perpetuates the myth vibrant market not just for overseas visitors, but for that too little too late was done to help that company—the visitors from the home nations and the regions of the opposite was the case. The company was given a great United Kingdom. deal of help for about 10 years. In the late 1990s, a The trend is in favour of the short stay rather than moratorium on gas was lifted to help it to develop a the long holiday, and we must improve our infrastructure project enabling it to have its own source of energy, but accordingly to ensure that people can travel. The hon. it chose not to pursue that avenue. It then looked to the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) is right: main grid for its electricity supply, but the market was we need to enable people to reach the coasts and the high following a spike in prices—as my hon. Friend the beauty spots of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Member for Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire Ireland. I was going to go into greater detail, but I am (Nick Ainger) pointed out—and that put it off. conscious of the time. I could speak for hours about the The company then considered using biomass to bridge beauty of Wales and about Ynys Môn, the mother of the gap. Assistance amounting to some £48 million was Wales. I think that everyone who visits Wales should due to it. Having talked to senior Conservatives, I know visit the mother of Wales while they are there. 541 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 542

[Albert Owen] valedictory speeches in history, but I have felt compelled to respond to some of the kind words Members have Green energy has fantastic potential for the future. said about me and about other Members who are The low-carbon future will be good for the economy, retiring from the House; I almost felt as if I was the environment, and the energy security of our country. participating in a living funeral at one point. As other hon. Members have said, over previous decades I particularly want to pay tribute, in return, to the we have been too reliant on the dash for gas, and we right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig). We have have not invested as much as we should have in other crossed metaphorical swords at times, and listening to areas. That is changing, however. Since entering the him reminds me of a famous remark once made about House, I have been involved in the scrutiny of a number Saunders Lewis: that even though it was possible at of energy Bills, and we have put in place mechanisms times to disagree with every word that he said, somehow for growing both renewable and nuclear energy in the it was a pleasure disagreeing with him. Such is the future. I believe in a rich, diverse energy mix that courtesy and generosity of spirit that has always marked includes renewable energy, nuclear energy and clean the right hon. Gentleman’s contributions, and his personal coal, as well as energy efficiency measures. dealings with me and my hon. Friends. I think Wales can take advantage of an opportunity The right hon. Gentleman referred, characteristically here. I have been promoting Anglesey as Britain’s energy mischievously, to the small add-ons my party managed island, because we now have a great tradition of nuclear to insert into the “One Wales” agreement. I have one of generation, and we have also had windmills. I feel sad them in my hand. The Secretary of State referred to it in when I hear hon. Members talking in terms of either/or. his remarks. It is the letter responding to the First I think we need both types of energy. Anglesey has been Minister on the referendum, in which the Secretary of a pioneer in nuclear, and it also houses wind farms on State says: land. I also think there is great potential for a round “I have instructed Wales Office officials to take forward the three, in which Anglesey has responsibility for the preparatory work on the legal instruments required for holding manufacture, assembly and maintenance of the new the referendum”. area proposed by Centrica between the Isle of Man and My party says “Hear, hear” to that. the Isle of Anglesey. That is important. I do not consider wind turbines to be bird blenders, as the right hon. The right hon. Member for Islwyn referred to the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) said. I think they economic problems facing Iceland and Ireland. I am are important; the technology exists, and it is also sure that he would accept—some of my forebears came improving—I disagree with the hon. Member for from Cork, and the same is true of the right hon. Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) about that—and I Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy)—that the Irish are believe we can get a better return on our money from a resilient people and one should never underestimate wind farms. We in Wales should be pioneering on that. them. I am sure that despite their current difficulties, they will bounce back. That is part of a core truth about I have been talking to a number of companies that small countries everywhere, irrespective of whether they want to invest in Ynys Môn and develop wind farm are independent: small countries have to be resilient, technology. I have also been talking to companies that and sometimes they have to be agile too. Wales has also want to develop marine and tidal energy. I think we can had its fair share of difficult times, but we should have bring this all together, and have a low-carbon economy resources of hope, as one Welshman from Gwent famously with Wales driving it forward, because that will provide said. That is because through, those difficult times, we the skills for the future; it will provide high-skill jobs can retain our optimism that the future will be better not only in construction and generation, but in research than the past, as Idris Davies said. and development. Green technology can bring that to One can turn around the argument about whether Wales, and I want Anglesey to be central to that. Wales is too poor to be independent. I could say, as I do not want to talk Wales down; I want to talk indeed the former permanent secretary at the Welsh Wales up. It has a skills base; it has pioneered in many Assembly Government recently said, that perhaps Wales areas in the past, and it can pioneer in the future. I think is too poor because it has been run from outside. My that green energy and green tourism are two areas in view is that no country has ever ruled another well—that which Wales can take the lead, and I want Anglesey to is my philosophical position. I respect the sincerity of be central to that in the future. We need to invest a little the right hon. Member for Islwyn, and all I would say to more in that, and I hope that the Assembly and local him is that this interesting debate will continue for many government, as well as this House, can look at the green years to come. technologies and green economy and make them central. In the meantime, this debate has touched upon the Finally, I want to pay tribute to the Isle of Anglesey central problem of Welsh politics: the relative economic county council for its help and support in promoting underdevelopment of Wales, which spans generations. the energy island concept, because I think that will One can trace this back to the 1920s and the collapse of bring real benefits to Anglesey in the future. I now look the coal price; it has been with us that long. All hon. forward to hearing, perhaps, from the hon. Member for Members from all parties have to find a resolution to Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr. that problem. Of course, it was not always thus. Wales was once the engine room of the world economy. At one 5.22 pm point, two thirds of the tonnage of all UK exports left from one Welsh port—Cardiff. So we have had better Adam Price: I thank the hon. Member for Ynys Môn times and there will be better times in our future too. (Albert Owen) for his very kind remarks, and I wish him Where was the first £1 million cheque signed? It was well personally—although I hope he will not put that in signed in Cardiff. Wales has been more prosperous in his election address. This might be one of the briefest the past and it will find a more prosperous future. 543 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 544

A number of Members have put their finger on the World Expo? I am speaking as an ordinary Back-Bench nub of this matter by saying that at this critical time Member of Plaid Cymru, so this is also a challenge to there are opportunities. Part of the reason for the my own party. If I were here after the next elections, in relative underdevelopment in Wales is that the UK any discussions with either of the two Front-Bench economy, from the early years of the 20th century, has teams, I would seek to make the proposal one of our red started to specialise away from manufacturing and into lines. Wales deserves this. Generations of my family and financial services. That is the core of the problem that those of most other hon. Members in the Chamber the UK economy is facing, and we hope that we are contributed with their sweat and too often with their seeing that economy being restored to a more healthy blood to making this state of the United Kingdom the balance. Wales is well poised because manufacturing is great world economic power that it was. We are not still a more important part of its economy than it is in asking for charity but for something that I think that we the rest of the UK’s economy. deserve. We are asking for help so that we can help So Wales needs to grasp these important opportunities, ourselves. We are asking for a foundation for a new because the economic statistics at the moment are economy. depressing. Wales is the UK region with the lowest Whatever our political position on the constitutional gross value-added per head; it is 10th out of 12 on question, none of us want Wales to be holding a begging research and development expenditure; and it is the bowl for the rest of this century. We do not want to go lowest on private equity and venture capital. Before cap in hand to anyone, however we see Wales’s political the shadow Secretary of State claims that that is all the future. We want Wales to be able to stand up proud and fault of the Welsh Assembly Government or even this tall. We have the human capital to do it—the most Westminster Government, I should say that Wales has precious resource that we have is the skills and ability of lain in that position for generations; this is a deep our people—but we need investment. Let us have that structural problem in the Welsh and the UK economy. investment in a decade of manufacturing and science. However, that does not mean that we should accept it. Let us not inspire engineers to go into the City of Wales is a small country that needs a big idea. The London, as they have for the past 20 years, to use their hon. Member for Carmarthen, West and South mathematics to sell more and more arcane financial Pembrokeshire (Nick Ainger), my neighbour, has put products. Let us inspire engineers—Welsh sons and his finger on it by saying that need to put manufacturing, daughters—to do engineering when they come out of science, technology and innovation at the heart of our university by showing that there can be a productive economic future. I wish to see, in the UK in general and future for them in manufacturing. in Wales in particular, a decade in which we do that; we I am optimistic, too—we have to be, do we not, in a should have a decade for innovation, manufacturing small country? As I shall be leaving these shores soon, I and science to build the foundation for the 21st century. want to end by paraphrasing the famous phrase used by At the culmination of that decade, I would like the the late Robert Kennedy. Some people look at Wales World Expo—the world fair—to come back to the UK and the world as they are and ask, “Why?” The challenge for the first time in about 150 years. It started in this is to look at Wales and the world as they could be and country in 1851 and has been going ever since, but it has ask, “Why not?” not been back to the UK since 1862. Does the fact that we have not invited back the World Expo— the biggest 5.33 pm international event after the Olympic games and the Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): The St. David’s FIFA World cup—not say something about priorities? day debate this year has been something of a bittersweet The World Expo came to Dublin in 1907, when occasion: sweet because it is always sweet to celebrate Ireland was still in the UK. Why not bring it to Wales? Wales in this Palace of Westminster, but tinged with Why not have the Wales World Expo? Wales, which bitterness, perhaps, at the departure of so many colleagues fired the industrial revolution, could host the biggest from both sides of the Chamber. and most important world event for the new industrial The debate was also characterised by a trait that, I revolution—the knowledge revolution that was referred am afraid, is frequently Welsh—that of looking back. to by the right hon. Member for Islwyn. Yes, it will That could certainly be seen from those Members on require investment, just as the London Olympics have the Government Benches who, again, after 13 years, required investment. As we know, Wales has contributed sought to analyse what happened under the last heavily to that, paying about £436 million. Surely, just Conservative Government. However, in some six weeks’ as the UK Government have supported the successful time, the electorate of this country will be called not to Olympic bid and the FIFA World cup bid, which would go back over ancient history but to take, as the Prime also be mostly based in London, they could support Minister said, a second look—or perhaps a long hard with central Government expenditure a bid for the look—at the record of this Labour Government in Expo made on behalf of the whole UK, but based in office. Wales. The Secretary of State was his usual combative self, The Expo could have a transformational effect. The suggesting what a terrible state of affairs the country last two—in Hanover in Germany in 2000 and in Japan would fall into if the wicked Tories were ever to take in 2005—had 25 million visitors. Imagine the transformative over the levers of power, but frankly that does not wash effect that the event could have on the image and the any more. Labour has been in charge of the country for reality of Wales. It would be a catalyst that would 13 years now, and we need to consider what has happened transform our economic prospects and would put Wales under that party. on the world map, as it was so clearly 100 years ago. Let me consider the speeches that various hon. and The bidding round will start soon—it will open next right hon. Members have made, starting with the right year. Here is a challenge to the Front Benchers from hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy). May I echo both leading parties: will they back a Wales bid for the the tribute that my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham 545 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 546

[Mr. David Jones] repeating what I have said before—it is ludicrous that the Welsh road freight transport policy takes no account and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) paid to him? His work as of the DFT in London and that the DFT was not the Secretary of State for Wales was outstanding. His consulted about that policy given that most road freight greatest achievement—in his second tenure of office—was journeys start or end in England. to restore the prominence of the Welsh Grand Committee, We heard from the hon. Member for Brecon and which is an important institution of the House and is Radnorshire (Mr. Williams), who commented, perhaps vital for the venting of Wales’s voice in Parliament. It is otiosely, that it was clear from the comments of various frequently forgotten, since the establishment of the Members that there is an election in the offing. I think National Assembly, that a large proportion of day-to-day that that is very clear from most of the speeches that we life in Wales is directly affected by what happens here. It have heard. He also referred to rural issues. He, of is therefore essential that Welsh Members of Parliament course, represents a rural constituency, and he spoke have the opportunity to debate relevant issues here. He about the price of fuel there. I am sure that he shares my ensured that the Welsh Grand Committee met regularly, concern that so many petrol stations in Wales are about and I hope that his successor continues the pattern that to be adversely affected by the enormous hike in rates. If he established. he were present, he would be interested to hear that The right hon. Gentleman talked about the banks, as 27 rural filling stations in Powys will be in danger if the have many other hon. and right hon. Members. Clearly, rates increases go ahead without any mitigation. I urge the banking system and the crisis within it has been a the Welsh Assembly Government to look at that issue. cause of much of the pain that the country has experienced The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) in the past two or three years. It is undoubtedly the case bemoaned her lack of a daffodil. I share her pain, but that immense greed was allowed to impel those who she will be pleased to note that I am wearing my special worked in the banks, but, by the same token, it cannot St. David’s day tie. It has a pattern of leeks on a suitably be overlooked that the regulatory system that was blue background, and I hope that the number of leeks established by the Government was defective. will be echoed by the number of Conservative Members of Parliament elected at the next general election. Nick Ainger rose— The right hon. Lady rightly spoke of the need for compassion towards the unemployed, but it is also true Mr. Jones: I know that the hon. Gentleman wants to that Wales is more seriously affected by economic inactivity intervene, but I have very little time. than any other part of the country. In Wales, more than The tripartite system that was established directly by 24 per cent. of the working age population is economically the Prime Minister proved wanting. Indeed, the Governor inactive. That is no good for the economy but, more of the Bank of England commented that although the particularly, it is no good for the people involved. I Northern Rock fiasco could not have been averted, it promise her that the next Conservative Government certainly could have been mitigated if the Bank of will introduce measures to do everything possible to put England had had direct and overarching responsibility those people back to work. People cannot simply be for regulation. That is something that the next Conservative written off all sorts of work just because they have one, Government will introduce. particular medical condition. A truly caring and compassionate Government would look at each individual, Nick Ainger: The hon. Gentleman is doing the Governor assess what they can do and help them to find the work a disservice. The Treasury Committee looked at these that suits them. I am sure that the right hon. Lady matters in great detail, and we found that there were agrees with that. major problems with regulation not only in this country Among other things, my hon. Friend the Member for but in every other developed country, despite the model Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) spoke about the being used. recession’s impact on young people. They are suffering doubly: they are finding it difficult to get work but, as Mr. Jones: The fact of the matter is that in this my hon. Friend so rightly said, they are the ones who country we had a tripartite system that did not work. will pick up the bill for this recession—and probably There was no individual or body with overarching their children will have to do so, too, such is the scale of responsibility. [Interruption.] France, of course, was the economic devastation that this country has experienced. not immune from what happened. The recession has hit Those young people must be intensely depressed by the this country harder than any other developed country. fact that, having completed their education or training, We were the first into the recession; we are the last out they cannot find work. Above all else, we must ensure of it; and our exit is a faltering one. Indeed, it may well that they are given the opportunity as soon as possible be—God forbid—that we are about to have a double to find the apprenticeships, or at least the work experience dip. We might see statistics in April that show that we placements, that will equip them for the rest of their have re-entered recession, such is the fragility of the lives. economy. The Government cannot abdicate responsibility We heard from the right hon. Member for Islwyn for that, as they seek to do. (Mr. Touhig) who, much to my personal distress, will be The right hon. Member for Torfaen also discussed standing down at the next general election. He was transport. He pointed out that it now takes him one again combative, berating the Conservative party for hour longer than it did 20 years ago to drive from his the way in which he claimed that it let down Wales constituency to London. I agree entirely that there in the 1980s and 1990s. However, may I remind him that should be far more co-ordination between the Welsh the Government of whom he was a member inherited Assembly Government and the Department for Transport the best and most propitious economic legacy that on the development of transport policy. It is worth any Government have ever inherited? What have the 547 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 548

Government done with that legacy? They have frittered bonuses have been part of the culture and remunerative it away, and reduced this country to a basket case. The package of bankers over the years. The issue must be right hon. Member for Islwyn must face facts: I know looked at, but it is quite wrong to berate moderately that he is a fair-minded man, and I am sure that he will paid bank employees for the fact that they are awarded be as distressed as me at the parlous mess that this bonuses. country now finds itself in. I am conscious of the time—although I would like to The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) refer to other Members’ contributions, I do not have the spoke about the war in Afghanistan. My hon. Friend time to do so. On St. David’s day it is clear that all the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) Members, whatever their political background, want to paid tribute to the Royal Welch Fusiliers and the sterling do their best for Wales, but we cannot all come to the service that they are undertaking out there, and I echo same conclusions. In the next few weeks, the people of her words. I paid a visit to them at Dale barracks, Wales, like the people of the rest of the United Kingdom, Chester, before they were deployed, and I can tell the will have to make a choice between five more years House that they were very eager to go there and do their under Labour, repeating the failure that Wales and the duty. They were looking forward to it not with relish, rest of the United Kingdom has experienced, or a new but with the professionalism that marks out the Welsh optimism with a Conservative party that is prepared to military. I do not believe that it would be safe to pull out take on the challenges that this country faces, and to of Afghanistan immediately, as the hon. Gentleman make life better for the people of Wales, which I am sure suggested; I believe that we have a real and proper is what everyone in this Chamber wants. function to carry out there, and I am glad to see that Welsh servicemen are doing that job. I am sure that we all wish them safety in that important function. 5.49 pm We heard from the hon. Member for Cardiff, North The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Julie Morgan), who raised a constituency issue that she (Mr. Wayne David): We have had a good debate this has raised on many previous occasions. We also heard afternoon. A wide range of issues has been discussed. from my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Julie T. C. Davies), who rightly pointed out the one-sided Morgan), for example, has spoken with passion about view of history with which we were regaled by Labour Llanishen reservoir, while the hon. Member for Ceredigion Members. He also raised the issue of apprenticeships, (Mark Williams) discussed a number of issues, including which are absolutely vital. We have a dearth of them, what is happening at the Aberystwyth university institute and it must be a priority of the next Conservative of biological, environmental and rural sciences, which I Government to find apprenticeships. recently visited. We can discuss that issue further. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis), the My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee, was next to (Ann Clwyd) made a passionate address. She accurately speak, and I pay tribute to him for his chairmanship, told us about the difficulties of the south Wales experience, which has been absolutely outstanding. I also pay tribute particularly during the miners’ strike. There was also to my fellow Committee members for all the hard work a colourful speech from the hon. Member for that we have carried out. That may sound as if I am Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik). patting myself on the back, but after some 43 inquiries I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for and innumerable LCOs, I think that I am entitled to Aberavon (Dr. Francis) has given us a clear indication do so. of the excellent work conducted by the Welsh Affairs I must pay tribute to the Committee for the speed Committee. He referred particularly to the effective with which it has dealt with LCO applications. In scrutiny of legislative competence orders and the excellent passing, however, I have to say that over the past couple work done on a number of other issues. I should of years I have been dismayed by the attempts of particularly like to refer to the good work that the certain individuals, particularly the Presiding Officer of Committee has done on the future of the Legal Services the Welsh Assembly, to suggest that the Committee has Commission. tried to slow down the progress of LCOs. We have My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen carried out our functions as expeditiously as possible, (Mr. Murphy) made an important address. He talked and we could not have done any better. about how in the past few years his constituency had We then had an entertaining contribution from the been transformed under the Labour Government. Similarly, hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) who clearly thinks that the Conservative party is in talked about the improvements that have taken place in power, because he devoted most of his contribution to his constituency. He specifically referred to improvements berating it. Indeed, one might even think that he was in the national health service. A new hospital is being concerned about a Conservative challenge in his built in Caerphilly borough; it happens to be in my constituency. However, he made one point with which I constituency, but it will serve his constituents as well. agree: the planning framework is resulting in the Like other hon. Members, I pay tribute to my right hon. proliferation of wind farms in parts of rural Wales. The Friend’s tremendous work over a number of years as a TAN 8 policy document is an absolutely pernicious member of the Government and a Member of the piece of work that needs urgent revision. House. We then heard from the hon. Member for Carmarthen, We also heard the last St. David’s day address from West and South Pembrokeshire (Nick Ainger), who the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr spoke from a position of authority as a member of the (Adam Price). I pay tribute to his work and the erudite Treasury Committee. He, like many Members, referred contributions that he has made to debates in the House. to the bank bonus culture. We must face the fact that I was particularly pleased at his reference to Idris Davies, 549 Welsh Affairs25 FEBRUARY 2010 Welsh Affairs 550

[Mr. Wayne David] safe in Conservative hands. What evidence do I have? Only this afternoon, for example, the hon. Member for who came from the Rhymney valley. My hon. Friend Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) said that the national the Member for Carmarthen, West and South health service was based on a plan drawn up by William Pembrokeshire (Nick Ainger) made an erudite speech, Beveridge. It was not; Aneurin Bevan, a good Welshman as did my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn from Tredegar, was the architect of the NHS. Of course, (Albert Owen), who is a true champion of his constituency. the Conservatives have always been lukewarm with One of the main points made by Labour Members in regard to the national health service—that is why they this debate concerned the need to maintain current voted against its formation back in 1948, and we will levels of public expenditure to ensure that the economic not forget it. recovery that we see now is sustained and developed. A It is important that we recognise that there are clear few days ago, a significant letter, signed by no fewer divisions in this House between how we approach the than 67 leading economists, was published in the Financial central issues that face this country. This debate, although Times. It stated: a good debate, has been a polarised one as well. In the “If the government did not take up the slack, there would be a near future, this country, too, will have to make a clear deeper recession. But fortunately, wise counsel has prevailed so choice between what is on offer from the two main far, and public spending has been maintained as an offset to parties. The fundamental choice is between a Labour reduced spending by the private sector.” party that will talk about sensible investment and fairness That is eloquent testimony to the effective economic and a Conservative party that will talk about austerity; strategy being successfully pursued by the Government. a Labour party that will talk about sustained modernisation It is imperative that that strategy should be maintained. and a Conservative party that will talk about crude There is a clear distinction between that economic cuts; and a Labour party that will talk about an optimistic approach and what is being advocated by a number of future and a Conservative party that will talk about a Conservative Members, in particular the hon. Members pessimistic, backward-looking future. for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb), for Chesham With that kind of choice, the people of Wales will and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) and for Clwyd, West wholeheartedly support the party that is represented on (Mr. Jones). At the election, there will be a clear choice the Labour side of the House. That is why I look to the for the people of Britain, including the people of Wales. general election, whenever it comes, with confidence. It will be between clear investment from a Labour Question put and agreed to. Government and a programme of harsh cuts. We have at least an inkling of the cuts that we could Mr. Speaker: At this, the conclusion of the debate on expect if a Conservative Government were elected. We Welsh affairs, I should report that I have received a have heard the comments about the free breakfasts letter from the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the provided by the Welsh Assembly—the Conservatives hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David), withdrawing describe them as “wasteful gimmicks”. We have heard a remark made during the last Welsh questions on the Conservatives say that free prescriptions are 10 February, and this will be published in the Official “unsustainable”. Free bus passes have been enormously Report. popular and liberating for elderly people in Wales, but Following is the full text of the letter: the Conservatives have said that they need “to review [Dear Mr Speaker, this scheme”. Thank you for your recent letter regarding my use of Mrs. Gillan: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the phrase “two-faced Tories” in the Chamber on Wednesday 10 February. Mr. David: I am sorry, but time is short. [Interruption.] While I firmly believe that the expression I used is No, I am quoting accurately from Conservative policy accurate and, in the context of a robust exchange, was statements. appropriate, I accept your ruling with regard to the use of If the Conservatives were to get into power, cuts non-Parliamentary language and I withdraw the phrase. would happen—and not only in the areas to which I Yours sincerely, have referred. I also believe that the NHS would not be Wayne David MP] 551 25 FEBRUARY 2010 E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh) 552

E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh) I subsequently visited the E.ON call centre last Friday, during the half-term recess, where I had meetings with Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House the management of the retail division, including Mr. David do now adjourn.—(Mr. Spellar.) Bird, the customer services director. I then met a representative group of 20 employees from the site, including some of the trade union representatives, to 5.56 pm discuss the situation. Some of the points that I wish to Mr. Mark Francois (Rayleigh) (Con): I am genuinely put to the Minister this evening come directly from that grateful for the opportunity to raise in the House of meeting and will be made on behalf of the employees. Commons the proposed closure of the E.ON call centre The company has now initiated a consultation process— in Rayleigh, in the heart of my constituency. I am glad to be supported in the Chamber by my hon. Friend the 6pm Member for Rochford and Southend, East (James Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). Duddridge), several of whose constituents also work at this facility, and who may seek to contribute briefly if Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House he is lucky enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker. My do now adjourn.—(Mr. Spellar.) hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess), Mr. Francois: For those not familiar with our procedures, who is speaking at the Oxford Union this evening, and that is a technicality, but clearly it must be gone through, who also has several constituents employed at E.ON, so I am grateful to the Government Whip. also wishes to have his support for them recorded; I shall return to his views on the matter a little later. I am The company has now initiated a consultation process of course also grateful to the Minister for her being on the future of the Rayleigh site, as it is required to by here. In a few minutes I will have several detailed law. It is due to conclude by mid-April. If the company questions to put to her, of which I have attempted to then decided to proceed with the closure, E.ON would give her at least some notice. apparently begin to make people redundant at the end of June. The trade unions at the site are apparently now The background to this decision is that E.ON UK preparing a counter-proposal to put to the company, has three divisions, one of which, the retail division, with the aim of making savings but keeping the site incorporates the company’s call centres. Several years open. It is still being generated, and I have not seen a ago, the division was loss-making and the company draft, but if it is credible I urge E.ON to consider it very therefore put in a turnaround programme, asking employees carefully indeed. I do not want to be accused of raising to alter working practices and improve productivity in false hope, but if there were any way that the company an attempt to return the division to profitability. The might reconsider on the basis of the counter-proposal, work force in Rayleigh, who number more than my constituents, and indeed their Member of Parliament, 600 employees, actively participated in this programme would be very grateful. to help to restore the division to financial health. As I understand it, E.ON has not yet published its 2009 I hope that I have been able to give the Minister a results for the division, but it is apparently back in clear picture of the current situation. Given what I have profit by some tens of millions of pounds, so quite a said, I have several questions to put to the Minister this turnaround appears to have taken place, to which my evening. First, with regard to the future of the site, the constituents have actively contributed. I realise that the employees would clearly like to continue working, if not company needs to make a profit, but given that the for E.ON then for someone else. The work force are division is now doing so again and that the employees in highly skilled at what they do, and I understand that the Rayleigh, who earn an average of less than £20,000 a company would be prepared to consider selling the year, have contributed actively to that turnaround, it centre as a going concern if a suitable buyer could be seems scant reward for them to be made redundant by found. Given that some UK companies are now bringing E.ON shortly thereafter. call centre jobs back onshore, can the Minister offer any advice on companies that might be considering such a Nevertheless, the company announced on 20 January process? If she does not have an answer tonight, will she that it was proposing to close the Rayleigh call centre, liaise with colleagues in her Department or elsewhere in with the loss of more than 600 jobs. I was fortunate Government and then get back to me promptly if she is enough, Mr. Speaker, to catch your eye that day at able to obtain any information about a potential alternative Prime Minister’s questions, and that gave me an opportunity investor for the Rayleigh call centre facility, who might to ask the Prime Minister for an assurance that the be encouraged to consider the idea more closely and Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory help save my constituents’ jobs? I am sure that she can Reform and the Jobcentre Plus network would do understand why I ask the question, and any assistance everything possible to assist my constituents if they would be greatly appreciated. were to be made redundant. In response, the Prime Secondly, E.ON has employed an outplacement company Minister assured me that the rapid response unit of the called Right Management to assist employees to find Department for Work and Pensions and Jobcentre Plus other work if the proposed closure proceeds. Essex would be made available to assist my constituents. I Jobcentre Plus has also attempted to contact the company shall return to that point in a moment. to provide advice and support to employees, but so far On that same day, I met Mr. Paul Golby, the chief E.ON has not actively taken up its offer of assistance. I executive of E.ON UK. We spent the best part of an have no prior reason to doubt the abilities of Right hour discussing the issue, and as part of that meeting I Management, but I would like to have the maximum asked him directly if the company might be prepared to possible support available to my constituents. Following reconsider its decision, particularly if it were to receive my visit, E.ON has assured me that it will improve any kind of counter-proposal. communication with Jobcentre Plus, and in fairness I 553 E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh)25 FEBRUARY 2010 E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh) 554

[Mr. Francois] division to profitability, and that it might reconsider the proposed closure at the conclusion of the consultation believe that it has been in contact with that organisation. process in April. However, if that proves not to be the However, will the Minister reiterate the types of services case, as many employees at the site obviously fear—that that Jobcentre Plus might be able to offer my constituents was apparent during my visit—I would like the maximum in these circumstances, so that they know what is available? amount of support to be made available to my constituents, Thirdly, if the closure goes ahead, E.ON is apparently not only by Right Management under contract to E.ON, prepared to provide redundancy pay beyond the statutory but by the Department, the Jobcentre Plus network and minimum. However, it is currently also saying that if the relevant local authorities, including Rochford district any employee were to leave before the end of June council and Essex county council, both of which, I because they had been fortunate to secure another job, believe, stand ready to assist if they can. they might have to forfeit their redundancy payment. E.ON is currently the largest private sector employer That seems unfair, particularly given the large number in Rayleigh, and therefore I hope the Minister can of employees who could otherwise all come on to the understand my concern at what the closure could mean job market at the same time. I am told that the company not only for the employees and their families, but for the might well be prepared to consider waiving that condition, wider community in Rayleigh, including local businesses but that doing so would effectively require the consent that have previously relied on its custom. This is a blow of the trade unions, at least before the consultation for the town, not just the company and the people who period concludes. I would definitely like the company to work there. alter its position on that issue, so can the Minister As I am sure the Minister will acknowledge, no confirm whether the situation as it has been explained Member of Parliament likes the prospect of a major to me is correct? redundancy in their constituency, and I am no exception. Fourthly, when I spoke to employees last week a I hope she appreciates the non-partisan spirit in which I number expressed understandable concern at the need have sought to raise this issue this evening, and I look to continue to meet mortgage payments if they lose forward very much to hearing what she has to say, some their jobs with E.ON. Will the Minister summarise the of which, I hope, will be of material help to my constituents. help that would be available to help individuals meet I reiterate that some of the questions that I have put to their mortgage payments if they were to be made redundant her effectively come from the meeting I had at the facility. through no fault of their own? I will conclude in the hope that my hon. Friend the Fifthly, if the closure is confirmed, Rochford district Member for Rochford and Southend, East can also council has offered in principle to organise an open day make a contribution, not least on behalf of his constituents at the call centre, which staff from its economic development who are employed at the facility. office and benefits division could attend to offer advice 6.8 pm to employees on access to benefits, and links to other James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend, East) (Con): employers in the district. When I put that idea to the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh employee representatives, it was quite well received. (Mr. Francois) on securing this very important debate. They suggested that local training organisations and He is not only a valued member of the shadow Cabinet, colleges might also like to be invited, to give those but a first-rate constituency MP and a most excellent employees who might be interested an opportunity to neighbour whom I am proud to call my friend. As he consider retraining packages or even returning to further said, despite E.ON being in Rayleigh, a number of or higher education. If that were to go ahead, would the constituents who I have the honour of representing will Department be prepared to support it? also be losing their jobs. I thank him for this opportunity Sixthly, I hope that the Minister, and indeed you, to raise the issue and to develop it further by considering Mr. Speaker, will allow me to place on record a brief the call centre and high-volume processing jobs that letter of support from my colleague, my hon. Friend the have been lost across south Essex. Member for Southend, West, who is clearly rather upset Sadly, the closure of E.ON is not an isolated case. with E.ON and who has this to say about the situation: Southend has suffered from several large closures resulting “Whilst it was absolutely the right thing to do to contact my in substantial job losses in the past year or two. One hon. Friend about E.ON’s proposed closure of the call centre in hundred and sixty-four jobs were lost at Lloyds TSB, Rayleigh, I think it was less than courteous not to contact myself as a neighbouring MP who has many constituents working at the and at the end of last year, just before Christmas, it was centre. This announcement has come as a terrible blow to the announced that 750 jobs will be lost at HSBC. The staff region and to families who work at the centre. As of yet, I have at the bank based above Victoria shopping centre were had no explanation as to why this decision is being made, which taken to the Odeon and told that the entire Southend would—at the very least—give the local authorities and Members HSBC credit card and collection service would be moved of Parliament concerned an opportunity to see if they could to Birmingham in 2011. For most at both E.ON and persuade the company to change its mind.” HSBC, moving such a distance would not be an option. In conclusion, my hon. Friend states: After the announcement of the HSBC closure, I wrote “As a long-standing supporter of this energy company, I am to the group chief executive and expressed my concern very disappointed that they are embarking upon a very short-sighted about whether my constituents were receiving all the decision, which I believe they will regret. I very much hope they assistance that they could. I received some reassurance will reverse their decision and intend to support my hon. Friend’s and I am looking forward to meeting face to face with efforts in that endeavour.” representatives from the bank, in addition to the That is my hon. Friend’s rather robust position. conversations that I have had to date. As I am sure the Minister can understand, I hope that HMRC will shed 1,000 jobs in Southend by 2011. E.ON might recognise the very real contribution that its The situation is even more difficult to come to terms with employees at Rayleigh have made to returning its retail for those who have lost their jobs, because the Department 555 E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh)25 FEBRUARY 2010 E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh) 556 for Communities and Local Government rightly deems employees and give referrals to services provided by Southend a regeneration zone at the same time as the other local agencies. Crucially, it also acts as a gateway Treasury discourages jobs being relocated to the town. to training and reskilling, assessing an individual’s needs The cumulative loss of call centre jobs deserves a and matching them with the training and funding co-ordinated response from the Government. This may opportunities available. also be an opportunity to look again at the Lyons That support from Jobcentre Plus will be at the heart review, which stopped civil service jobs coming to areas of a comprehensive and co-ordinated package of of deprivation such as Southend, East. I share my hon. Government support provided through local and regional Friend’s views about the closure of E.ON and am especially partners. The response to redundancy programme, offered interested to hear the Minister’s response to his questions jointly by the EEDA, Jobcentre Plus and the Learning about the support that the Jobcentre Plus network can and Skills Council, is also available to E.ON to complement provide to those being made redundant, some of whom the service provided by the rapid response service. It can will be looking for jobs in institutions that are already offer a number of additional services, depending on closing in Southend. This is a very grave matter, and I work force needs—everything from child care for people look forward to the Minister’s response. attending training to advice on setting up a business. Importantly, the response to redundancy programme can 6.11 pm also help to fund appropriate training courses for employees. The Minister for Regional Economic Development and The hon. Member for Rochford and Southend, East Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): I congratulate the mentioned Rochford district council and Essex county hon. Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois) on securing council, both of which are working to ensure E.ON this debate on what is an important subject. I certainly staff will be able to access the advice that they need on realise that the announcement by E.ON UK is very bad benefits, finance and housing issues. I understand that a news for his constituents. The company is a significant fact sheet has been produced bringing together all the local employer and he has clearly set out the serious resources available to people under threat of redundancy. impact that the potential loss of 600 jobs will have in I emphasise that all those public bodies are working the area. The global recession that we have witnessed together closely to ensure that E.ON staff can call on a over the past 18 months has, sadly, left its mark on co-ordinated and wide-ranging support package if the many communities around the country, as the hon. Rayleigh call centre does close. Member for Rochford and Southend, East (James Duddridge) also made clear. Mr. Francois: I am grateful for what the Minister has I will try to address the points made by the hon. said, and I am pleased to hear that E.ON is now actively Member for Rayleigh, and I first wish to assure him talking to Jobcentre Plus. It might be a pure coincidence that we will work with the Government office for the that that meeting took place this afternoon, on the day east of England and the East of England Development of this debate, but if, per chance, the fact that we secured Agency to explore whether other companies might be this debate suddenly encouraged the company to talk to interested in buying the centre. One of my officials from Jobcentre Plus properly, I would be pleased to know Go East spoke to E.ON this morning and I understand that perhaps we have achieved something by that method. that the company is currently focused on the consultation exercise. Once that has been completed we can enter Ms Winterton: It is certainly true that there were into more detailed discussions with the company about some initial difficulties in making contact with E.ON to the disposal of the site. However, as the hon. Gentleman discuss its plans, but I am happy to say that constructive himself said, it is important not to raise expectations in discussions are now taking place. Rochford district the area, because we are not aware of any potential council is due to meet Right Management—the company buyers at present. We will of course continue discussions. engaged by E.ON, and to which the hon. Gentleman EEDA has also been in touch with the company and referred—in the next two weeks to discuss how its will be able to move forward as soon as the final services can be integrated into the comprehensive support announcement is made. I will keep in touch with him package that I have outlined. should any potential investors be identified. The hon. Gentleman also raised the issue of redundancy On the hon. Gentleman’s second point, he is right to terms. I am advised that, if agreement is reached between emphasise how important it is that Jobcentre Plus plays the employer and the trade unions representing employees, a leading role in the support services provided to E.ON the consultation period can be curtailed prior to its employees. The rapid response service offered by Jobcentre scheduled conclusion. In those circumstances, staff members Plus will work with E.ON and its employees to identify would be released with payment in lieu of the period the support, advice and information that they would they are not working, and with the appropriate redundancy need. I know that a meeting has taken place this afternoon pay. As he said, he raised that with the company during between Jobcentre Plus representatives and E.ON, to his visit last Friday, and I understand that E.ON has discuss the package of support to be provided in the indicated that, in the event of redundancies, it will try to event of closure. be sympathetic to people working at the call centre. I I understand that E.ON has agreed that, following also understand that E.ON is awaiting proposals on this the consultation period, Jobcentre Plus advisers will be issue from the union. able to go to on-site surgeries for staff and open days The Government have set up two schemes for people and to get housing advice. In the meantime, an information who need mortgage support. The first is the home leaflet for E.ON staff will be put together detailing the owner mortgage support scheme, which is designed to full range of support available from all providers. The help owner-occupiers who suffer a temporary fall in rapid response service offers a wide range of services, income, for example because of redundancy. The scheme including help with job searching and skills matching. provides a valuable bridge, giving home owners who are As I have said, it will run dedicated advice surgeries for experiencing financial problems sufficient time to find 557 E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh)25 FEBRUARY 2010 E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh) 558

[Ms Rosie Winterton] James Duddridge: I recognise the figure of 300, but the figure that I was quoted was around 1,000. Does the new employment. Those who wish to take advantage of Minister recognise that 2,491 people were employed by the scheme should contact their mortgage lenders. HMRC in 2004 in the constituency that I have the The mortgage rescue scheme is delivered through honour to represent, but that that figure is projected to local authorities, registered social landlords, lenders go down to 1,500 in 2011? I am looking at the longer and debt advice agencies. It is designed to help both term. Does she recognise that by 2011 there will have families with dependent children, and elderly people been a reduction of more than 1,000 jobs? and other vulnerable groups, although I suspect that the Ms Winterton: I am not completely au fait with the latter two groups would perhaps not apply in this figures that pertained prior to the ones that I gave the instance. The mortgage rescue scheme offers two options. House just now, but I obviously assume that the hon. The first option is a Government mortgage to rent, Gentleman is speaking correctly when he describes that under which an RSL buys the property and rents it reduction. If there is anything else that I can add, back to the applicant, and the second is shared equity, however, I will write to him. under which the RSL provides an equity loan, enabling The Government are absolutely committed to creating the householder’s mortgage repayments to be reduced. as many new job opportunities as possible. The East of In those circumstances it is appropriate to contact the England Development Agency has done a lot of work local authority. to support businesses and people during the downturn, Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked whether we would as well as looking to the future and considering the type be willing to support an open day for E.ON employees of industries that we can encourage in order to ensure organised by Rochford district council. Were such an that we take advantage of all the job opportunities, event to be organised, I can confirm that representatives once the recovery really gets under way. For example, it from the Government office for the east of England has supported the expansion of Southend airport, which would attend, as well as representatives from the East of is adjacent to Rochford. That could involve the creation England Development Agency, the Learning and Skills of about 3,000 new jobs in the sub-region. The regional Council, and Jobcentre Plus, to ensure that E.ON employees development agency has also invested heavily in the got as much information and derived as much benefit as university campus at Southend to increase higher-level possible from the day.In such circumstances it is important skills in an area that historically has not had all those to reassure employees that all the information about the skills. We hope that these important investments will support available is being pulled together, so that they can boost the employment prospects of people in the area be confident that they know how to access that support. and make south Essex a much more attractive destination Mr. Francois: I have discussed the concept with Mr. Paul for commercial investment. Warren, the chief executive of Rochford district council, As I have said, we are certainly focusing on the and Councillor Terry Cutmore, who is the leader of generation of new jobs and new economic opportunities Rochford district council and who, by coincidence, used for people in Rayleigh and across the country. I very to work at the call centre a few years ago. They are both much hope that the people working at E.ON will be able keen to help if they can, and I would like to thank the to access such job opportunities if the call centre does Minister on their behalf for what she has just said. indeed close. That is why we are standing four-square If I can briefly take the Minister back to the point behind them at national level, working closely with about redundancy payments, I realise that there are a local and regional partners. We want to ensure that number of legal technicalities and that things are slightly people get the training, support and advice that they complicated, but let me stress something. My point in will need to cope with the transition, if it comes. principle is that if people have worked for the company— Mr. Francois: I apologise for interrupting the Minister’s particularly if they have worked there for a number of conclusion, but I want briefly to thank her for the spirit years—and if they can get a job before the end of June, in which she has approached this debate. She has provided it is incumbent on the company to recognise the difficulty a lot of information for which I am sure my constituents that they are in and the service that they have given, and will be grateful, and I thank her for that. I should like to not penalise their redundancies as a result. I want to thank my hon. Friend for being here to support me, and drive that point home now, while I have the chance. my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess) for supporting me in that rather punchy Ms Rosie Winterton: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman letter. That is very much his style. I should also like is making that point to E.ON too, as I understand he to thank you, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my constituents, indeed has. All such discussions are obviously subject to for giving me this opportunity to raise their fate in the agreement between the company and the trade unions. Commons Chamber this evening. I am very grateful, I understand that HMRC estimates that it will need and, with that, I shall allow the Minister to conclude 300 fewer staff in Southend by 2011, and that it aims to her speech. achieve this through natural wastage and a range of redeployment options for staff. There are no current Ms Winterton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those plans for redundancy, and the intention remains to comments. I can assure him that we will remain in touch avoid that. I am sure that the hon. Member for Rochford about any developments in the area, and try to ensure and Southend, East will also be aware that the Chief that, if the worst does happen, his constituents will be Secretary to the Treasury announced that a review was able to get back into work as soon as possible, with the being held to look into ensuring that progress on seeing kind of support that we are going to supply. where civil servants might be relocated out of London to Question put and agreed to. other areas continues, and that work is progressing as 6.28 pm well. House adjourned. 141WH 25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 142WH

In essence, the cap-and-collar revenue and risk-sharing Westminster Hall agreement keeps the financial risk with the taxpayer. TOCs should not be allowed to escape their responsibilities Thursday 25 February 2010 through special vehicle financial arrangements if they default. We felt that National Express should not have been able to retain its two other franchises if it defaulted [JANET ANDERSON in the Chair] on its commitments on the east coast main line, but it appears that the franchises are to be allowed to run Rail Fares and Franchises their course, although extensions that might have been agreed will be denied. [Relevant documents: Eighth Report from the Transport Committee, Session 2008-09, HC 233, and the Government Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I have listened Response, HC 1004, Session 2008-09.] carefully to the hon. Lady. I wonder whether she would Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting care to give the Committee’s view on this. As I understand be now adjourned.—(Kerry McCarthy.) it, the special purpose vehicle was not connected to the holding company as a direct result of the initial franchise 2.30 pm negotiation. It was because of the way that franchising is undertaken, and not something that is necessarily a Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): fault of the company. The fault is with the negotiation The Select Committee report that we are discussing that was done at the time of the franchising renegotiation. reflects long-standing concerns about the rail franchise system and rail fares, and follows previous inquiries on those topics in 2006. The key issues for consideration Mrs. Ellman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his are the absence of any real transfer of risk from the comments. The Committee has continually criticised public to the private sector, a complex and expensive the way in which franchise agreements have been put fare structure for many, and inadequate passenger support together, and our comments deal with that. This goes services that are seen to be at risk at this time of back to the question of risk. If some of the thinking recession. behind the franchise arrangements is that the burden of risk should be transferred from the public to the private The inquiry was held as the recession impacted on sector but the franchise arrangements do not reflect rail, and one of the consequences was to make the 9 to that, the criticism lies with those who arrange the franchises. 10 per cent. passenger growth projections anticipated in the last rail franchise round unrealistic. Indeed, while our inquiry was sitting, it was reported to the Public Stephen Hammond: I thank the hon. Lady for that Accounts Committee that several train operating companies answer on risk. Again, this goes to the heart of what were displaying what the Department for Transport franchising is. Relatively short franchises are set up called red-light warning signals. Specific concern focused under special purpose vehicles. Does she accept that if on the east coast main line, which had already lost one they were set up so that the franchise is against the franchise operator when GNER defaulted and National holding company, there would be a heavier element of Express was awarded the contract. At our meeting on risk to the company, with the obvious result that the 17 June 2009, the Secretary of State for Transport, Lord Government would see less in premiums? What is the Adonis, assured us that no TOC was reporting financial Committee’s view on that? difficulties or seeking renegotiation of its contract. Our Committee strongly holds the view, which we reiterated Mrs. Ellman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his at the time, that franchise operators in trouble should additional comments. The Committee has always been not be permitted to renegotiate what they had agreed. concerned that if the premiums demanded were too Two weeks later, on 1 July, it was announced that the high and risked reducing services or jeopardising the Secretary of State had refused National Express’s request TOCs, that, too, would be an error in the franchising to renegotiate contracts on the east coast main line. The process, and we have drawn attention to that in previous contract was to be relinquished, and the Government reports. would establish a publicly owned company to run the Our report also deals with passenger services and the east coast main line service until refranchising in 2010. threats to them. The range of services includes refreshment The Transport Committee supported that decision—we facilities, station security and booking offices, the provision had made strong representations against renegotiation—but of which impacts on passenger safety. There have been we stated clearly that we wanted the franchise to remain many complaints about TOCs trying to reduce passenger in the public sector so that there could be a comparator services in an attempt to reduce their costs and, in some for private sector franchises. We were told that that cases, the Secretary of State has stepped in and not would require new legislation, but we have not seen any allowed that to happen. Passenger Focus, which does intention to go ahead with it, which we certainly regret. excellent work in the interests of the travelling public, What are the key issues in our report, and where are has highlighted these issues, and it is encouraging that we now with the major points that were raised including, the new chairman of the Office of Rail Regulation, first, the important question of risk to the taxpayer? Anna Walker, has made public statements expressing There is still a lack of information about the financial her concern about the reduction of passenger services. stability of the franchise operators. This is of particular We welcome the inclusion of important passenger concern in the current economic climate and for the services such as improved stations, added CCTV, and medium-term future. It is important because the level of cycle and car parking in the new South Central franchise contingent liabilities in transport is high, and much of it for Southern Railways. We hope that it will be a model relates to rail. for future franchises. Recent statements by the Secretary 143WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 144WH

[Mrs. Ellman] Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I support the hon. Lady’s Committee on this, and the Minister’s intervention of State encourage us to think that that might be the concerns me. Although it is true that regulated fares case. I shall make particular reference to the recently have decreased because of inflation this year, the decrease published Department for Transport document, “The has by definition been marginal, whereas the increase in Future of Rail Franchising”, which discusses passenger unregulated fares has in many cases been large, as the services, the length of franchises, risk—many of the train companies have sought recompense for the reduction matters referred to in our report—and three new franchises in regulated fares. Consequently, as the hon. Lady says, that are under consideration. We would like the proposals there has been a massive increase in some fares way in the document to relate to franchises as a whole, and I beyond inflation, which is unacceptable to the public at shall refer to that later in my contribution. large. The third area that we looked at was fares. We repeated our long-standing, strong concern about the Mrs. Ellman: The hon. Gentleman makes an important complexity and cost of fares and about the difficulty point, and I accept the thrust of what he is saying. I many people experience accessing cheaper tickets. We hasten to add that First Capital Connect, Merseyrail recognised that there are many good deals to be had, and TransPennine froze their fares, and they should be but for the passenger who perhaps does not have access praised for doing so. to the internet and cannot arrange their journeys in advance or at specific times and days, the increase in There is concern that this year, in contrast to its fares is horrendous. We repeatedly expressed concern previous practice, ATOC rather mysteriously refused to about this. publish its unregulated fare increase by operator. In past years it has published such information, but this We are pleased that the Secretary of State accepted year they did not do so. When information about fare our recommendation to continue the retail prices index increases was requested, it agreed that it had the data, plus 1 per cent. formula for increases on most regulated but it declined to give out the information or publish it. fares. That was particularly important because, at a That unacceptable practice has led members of the time when inflation was set to fall, there were reports public to wonder whether it masks high increases in that the train operating companies were attempting to unregulated fares. I call on ATOC to publish all train have that formula removed so that they could increase fare increases by operator as it has done in previous fares, when they ought to have been reducing them. years. We were also pleased that the Secretary of State promised to remove the basket of fares which allowed According to information from the House of Commons individual fares to rise by up to five times as much as the Library, rail fares in January 2010 were 41 per cent. national increase. That promise was carried out and the higher in real terms than in January 1987, and we basket for regulated fares has gone, but it is not at all should be concerned about the rising trend in rail fares. clear whether its removal is for one year only—this I recognise that ATOC has embarked on a review of year—or for the foreseeable future, so I seek clarification fares. I am glad that it has responded to the concerns on that. expressed by our Committee and by many others, including In July 2009, the RPI stood at 1.4 per cent., and most passenger representative groups, such as Passenger Focus. regulated fares fell in 2010—the first fall since That review is welcome, but we will have to see what the privatisation—but there were concerns that the train outcome is. operating companies would seek to recoup this through I repeat the Committee’s previous calls for the cuts in services or increases in unregulated fares. Last Government to review the distribution of taxpayer and November, the Association of Train Operating Companies passenger contributions to fares, because although I announced that overall fares would rise by an average of may criticise the individual train operating companies 1.1 per cent. for 2010, but this has masked major for what they are doing, and sometimes for trying to increases in some areas, particularly in unregulated hide what they are doing, I also recognise that the fares. For example, the increase in the price of a First Government, too, have a responsibility in respect of Great Western London to Swindon supersaver ticket by deciding to fund the travelling public. It is important a massive 15 per cent. at a time of falling inflation is that the public have adequate information so that high unacceptable. individual increases cannot be hidden. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Rail is a success story, with ridership at its highest (Chris Mole): I assume that the Committee accepts that, level for 60 years. Rail received a subsidy of £3.86 billion although there may be one or two exceptions in the last year, and it is essential that that sum brings value unregulated fares area, 60 per cent. of tickets are purchased for money. It is always important that the public receive on regulated fares. Therefore the vast majority of the value for money for public investment, and that will be travelling public have seen a fall in their ticket prices increasingly critical in the years ahead. It is encouraging from January this year. that a number of the Committee’s key recommendations are advanced in the Government document called “The Mrs. Ellman: I thank the Minister for his intervention, future of rail franchising”, which was issued in January but the logic of his comment means that 40 per cent. of by the Department for Transport. For example, it proposes passengers are travelling on unregulated fares. An increase franchises of 15 years, and perhaps longer, but they of 15 per cent. can cause great hardship. Indeed, there would be conditional on the train operating companies are other examples, including the London to Liverpool showing what additional benefits and investments they anytime single fare and the London to Manchester will bring and having adequate break points, so that anytime return ticket, the costs of which have increased steps can be taken to remove those franchises if the by 6 per cent. These figures should not be taken lightly. operating companies do not fulfil their promises. 145WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 146WH

The document suggests that there should be a new problem becomes immediately apparent. Beyond the look at the transfer of risk from the public to the private issues raised by the hon. Lady, short franchises stifle sector and at the possibility of higher performance investment and innovation, and operators are, not bonds being required, and whether other steps should surprisingly, unwilling to commit their own money above be considered. It also refers to the importance of improved the specified premia bonds because they are unlikely to passenger services as part of the conditions of awarding get a return on their investment before their franchise a franchise. The document mentions three new franchises ends. Longer franchises would foster more TOC managerial to be awarded, which could set a trend for the future, focus on improving services for passengers, rather than and I hope it does. just looking ahead to the next bid. That, of course, also Rail is increasingly important. The issues raised in implies that longer franchises reduce the costs of bidding the Committee’s recent report, “Rail fares and franchises”, and tendering, which should facilitate more investment have been raised in the past, although these are given in the franchise, giving investors more time to benefit new urgency because of the current economic climate. from their outlay and to provide a better quality of The report highlighted some of the problems in the service to passengers. franchise system. I call on the Government and the rail All too often, Network Rail does not view the operator industry to continue to respond to our concerns in the and its passengers as its first concern. The current short interest of the taxpayer and of the travelling public. franchises undoubtedly misalign the objectives and incentives of the industry. If operating companies had 2.48 pm franchises of at least 15 years, Network Rail would be Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): It is a pleasure forced to consider the operator as a long-term partner to take part in this debate with you in the Chair today, and, again, there would be benefits for passengers. As Mrs. Anderson. the Minister said, the Opposition’s long-standing position I welcome the Select Committee’s report on this has been that franchises across the network should crucial issue and welcome the opportunity, albeit somewhat generally be let for 15 to 20 years. I agree with the Select belated, to debate it this afternoon. The timing of the Committee’s proposal that franchises should be let for Committee’s report and investigation was perhaps up to 15 years, but that that should be towards the fortunate for those who are not Ministers and unfortunate minimum end rather than the maximum end. I welcome for those who are, because it came at the time of the the fact that in their document in January the Government second failure of the operator on the east coast main joined us in that position. line franchise and, thereafter, the forced re-negotiation A longer franchise must not be a licence for operators of services. That was perhaps the ultimate illustration to do what they like for 20 years, and that point was of some of the consequences of the franchising system ably picked up by the Select Committee. Clearly, the that the Government have put in place. As the hon. regulator will need powers to ensure that performance Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) said, in measures are met, and I stress that those should not be 2006 the Transport Committee’s report concluded just the current performance measures. I would like “that the franchising system had failed to fulfil its objectives, and more inclusive performance measures to include not that it was nothing short of a ‘policy muddle’.” only trains that are late, but trains that are cancelled. In 2009, the Committee concluded in its report that That would allow franchises to be removed from train there remain operating companies if they consistently failed to deliver “underlying problems in the current franchising model.” for their passengers. The conclusion that there are underlying problems is Looking at how things can be done differently, Chiltern’s undoubtedly correct. Franchises are too short, too specified, franchise was let on a rolling basis for 20 years, which discourage investment and innovation, and have not allowed Chiltern to make considerable and imaginative delivered the sort of capacity needs that the network investment in long-term improvements, and to work requires. closely with Railtrack previously and then Network Rail. It has invested in new trains, extra car parking Chris Mole: The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues places, better platforms, better stations, better buildings, on the Conservative Front Bench frequently suggest and better performance for passengers. One of life’s that the Government micro-manage and interfere too lessons is that it is a question not of how much money is much in franchise operation. Would he care to suggest spent, but of how it is spent, or not of how much is what aspect of over-specification he would drop, and bought, but what is bought. A qualitative assessment as what protection for passengers he would lose from the well as a quantitative judgement is required. An incoming process? Government will have to consider how, when they award Stephen Hammond: It is not a question of losing future franchises, they will place emphasis on the quality protection. Network safety is dealt with by the Office of of plans in each bid in terms of investing in rail Rail Regulation, and train operating companies must improvements to increase capacity, improve services meet specifications in terms of intention to tender. and attract more passengers. The assessment of franchise Does the Minister agree that his predecessor said that bids must be qualitative as well as quantitative. 14 civil servants in his Department were writing timetables? When granting franchises, the Government focused Is that a necessary specification? He probably believes solely on cost and how much money could be squeezed that it is a necessary specification, so I will leave it at out of train operators. Cost must not be the only that. consideration. I accept that it will be the overwhelming I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady that franchises consideration, but a qualitative judgment of what else are too short. Most are around seven years, and the will be being delivered must be made. The Opposition latest—Southern—was for around six years, or slightly believe that there should be an opportunity for train less. If that is compared with a train’s useful life, the operators to have a much stronger incentive to invest to 147WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 148WH

[Stephen Hammond] overcrowding by providing a better match of supply and demand as the franchise moves forward, and increasing improve the quality of service that they offer and to route capacity for both passengers and freight. provide new capacity to help to tackle overcrowding. It On the line between London, Tilbury and Southend, must also become a realistic option for passenger operators c2c’s franchise is 15 years. It was let in 1996 when the to buy their own rolling stock. Longer franchises will Government did not specify franchises so tightly. That provide an incentive to both operators taking decisions flexibility has enabled its management to focus on delivering on buying and leasing rolling stock. to its customers, improving station environment, introducing a wholly new fleet of trains, and focusing on operational Chris Mole: Given that the principal factor in the performance with better stations and platforms. It has failure of the National Express east coast franchise bid transformed what was once known as the misery line was the uncertainty about whether it had made a robust into a line with some of the highest levels of customer assessment of forward economic projections, and if the satisfaction and punctuality within the profile of the hon. Gentleman and his party are suggesting that a original franchise agreement. 20-year franchise is the magic bullet that fixes all franchises, Within the rail industry, there is a clear and well- how does he anticipate a business being able to forecast understood relationship between journey times, revenue the economic scenario that far into the future with and punctuality. Faster scheduled journey times lead to sufficient confidence to allow it to commit to such a increased revenue, provided that that is not at the expense long franchise? of punctuality. Faster journey times enable improved rolling stock utilisation, as it becomes possible to operate Stephen Hammond: Presumably by listening to the more train services for the same fleet of rolling stock. advice that KPMG gave to the Minister’s Department There is no need to specify journey times. The TOCs on economic reset mechanisms for 20-year franchises. It will work to optimise those requirements within the has been well publicised that advice was given to the framework of the overall performance. Department on how longer franchises would need either Several times, I have debated with the Government—in an economic deflator, or economic reset mechanisms. I the guise of various Ministers—about the practice of presume that an incoming Government—I hope that civil servants setting detailed timetables across the network. they are of our colour rather than the current colour—will The Government occasionally tell us that that is not take that advice when considering longer franchises. happening, but a previous Minister has put it on record There is plenty of international experience of longer that at one stage he had 14 civil servants writing detailed franchises, and I cite Australia. There are economic timetables. Of course the Department for Transport has mechanisms that are not the same as the cap and a role in monitoring franchises, but it should concentrate collar—economic deflators and reset mechanisms. For less on inputs, and set more outputs for the TOCs to the Minister to suggest that there would have to be a deliver in the most effective way in areas such as operational completely new science, or that his Department has not performance, passenger satisfaction and station cleanliness. taken advice, is wrong. That is the way forward.

Norman Baker: Does the hon. Gentleman share my Chris Mole: I have listened with interest to the hon. perplexity that the Minister seems to be arguing against Gentleman, and I thank him for giving way yet again. longer franchises when his Secretary of State has indicated He talks as if train stopping patterns and timetables a policy in favour of them? It might be helpful if he should be purely a matter for each train operating talked to his Secretary of State. company on the line and service that it operates, without regard to the fact that lines and services interconnect. Stephen Hammond: The answer must be that given We need to ensure that people who transfer at a station that the Chancellor and the Prime Minister cannot from one franchise to another are able to interconnect agree, we should not be surprised that that disease is and catch trains between the two different operators. prevalent further down the Government. The key point must be that a change of vision is Stephen Hammond: Is the Minister telling us that it needed that will pave the way for more flexible and less needs a pyramid of civil servants in the Department, prescriptive franchises, giving operators real scope for rising up to senior civil servants writing timetables, for innovation and giving passengers a better service. Over us to be sure that as we jump off the train somewhere on the past 10 years, there have been unprecedented levels the network, we can jump on to another? Should we not of control and micro-management, which means that say that those closest to the passengers inside franchises railway professionals find it more and more difficult to with minimum specified details could deliver as well find ways of innovating to bring benefits forward more and as effectively? I do not suggest anything wholly quickly and cheaply to customers. Over-specification of new; that model worked and was in place for many franchises was taken up by the Select Committee in its years. It was put in place by some of the Minister’s third recommendation. It said that on the east coast predecessors. My lesser specification is an acknowledgement network, the current service level commitment is 45 pages that that system works and has been seen to work. long and contains great detail on frequencies and stopping The Government’s role in buying rolling stock should patterns for each route. But if the Government had be radically scaled back. It makes no sense for us to wanted, they could have set first and last trains with pretend that Ministers or civil servants should have minimum times and the number of stations to be stopped day-to-day control over moving new rolling stock around. at. It was not necessary to go into great detail of each That degree of detailed involvement is slowing up the pattern, which has the effect of inhibiting flexibility. delivery of new capacity and driving up costs for the Some straightforward timetable adjustments could reduce taxpayer and the fare payer. 149WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 150WH

We have witnessed the chaos surrounding the passenger and freight operators, on the basis that those procurement of what was promised to be 1,300 carriages— investments will enhance capacity. We would encourage although it is now generally accepted that there are rail franchise bids to contain projects of that type. Joint 978—and the subsequent cancellation and moving around bids for funding by Network Rail and local passenger of the InterCity express process. There has been the and freight operators would also be welcome. Network failure to see the Thameslink process reach a decision, Rail says that it is receptive to the idea, and I look and the failure of the cascade to deliver trains, particularly forward to that happening. It would also be important to Northern Rail where the franchise suffers from carriages to amend Network Rail’s licence to include a specific that are in excess of 25 years old. duty to co-operate with operators and other entities Three weeks ago in this Chamber we debated Thameslink carrying out those sorts of capacity enhancements. The and I am sure that the Minister is almost ready to sign advantages of that are clear. It would speed up the off the letter that he promised in answer to a number of construction of much needed capacity enhancements, questions. However, in conjunction with what was said improve efficiency and provide a cost comparison against in the Transport Committee, perhaps he will answer a the bulk of Network Rail’s current functions. It would few more points this afternoon, or again promise to provide useful benchmarks against which to measure deliver a letter. Will he confirm that the InterCity the whole of the infrastructure industry in this country, express contract will be signed on time? Will he confirm and it would encourage passenger and freight operators that, as he announced in the earlier debate, the Thameslink to invest in important capacity enhancements. upgrade is going to be delayed for a year? Should we The last part of the Committee’s report deals with assume that the train procurement contract is therefore National Express. Reading from the evidence-taking also going to be delayed for a year? Will he confirm how sessions, I want to point out a couple of issues that are many of the 1,300 carriages have been ordered and how particularly important. With the benefit of hindsight, many are in production? How many have been delivered the comments made by the Secretary of State to the and when will they be in service? When can Northern Committee appear to suggest that the Committee was Rail expect the cascade of trains? not given the fullest evidence about the state of the east As in the previous debate, I will give the Minister the coast franchise. opportunity to confirm whether the Government are On 17 June, and again on 15 July, the Committee was postponing the decision on or have stopped the order of told that the Secretary of State had no knowledge about 42 extra Pendolino trains, and that we will not see an the severity of the problems on the east coast main line. increase from trains with nine cars to those with 11 cars However, freedom of information requests have revealed on the west coast main line. I hope that the Minister will that not only was the Secretary of State aware of the be able to answer those questions. The Transport Committee problems with the franchise when he went before the report touches on rolling stock and procurement and Committee, but that he, or one of his predecessors, had for many people, particularly passengers, the Government’s attempted to negotiate a management contract with rolling stock procurement programme seems to have National Express. That is clear from the evidence in the come to a halt or gone into chaos. That has a direct freedom of information request, and the letter written impact on passengers. I look forward to the Minister by Mr. Ray O’Toole to the Government on 21 April enlightening us with those details in a short period 2009, which stated that although National Express was of time. not in breach of any term of the franchise, it would not I believe that franchise agreements should be more be able to continue with that franchise. It is clear from flexible and less prescriptive. They should allow more details of a meeting between the Secretary of State, decisions in the rail industry to be taken by rail professionals, Mr. Bowker and Mr. O’Toole on 9 June 2009, which subject to a more powerful consumer-facing regulator. were surrendered under the Freedom of Information That should improve the ability of the rail industry to Act, that Network Rail had no viable alternative but to react to capacity needs, plan for the future and deliver withdraw from the franchise from 1 January 2010. Both value for money for the fare payer. 21 April and 9 June were prior to 17 June and 15 July, when the Committee was given evidence. My third point is that if the reason for lengthening franchises is to improve services, enhance capacity and Page 7 of the Committee’s report states that the incentivise operators to invest in the railways, we must Government should ensure that not only is there value for money, but that “hold firm on its commitment not to re-negotiate franchising any investment enhances capacity. That brings us to the contracts”, issue of whether TOCs should be able to invest in rail and the Government reaffirmed that commitment in infrastructure. At the moment, that area of responsibility their response to the report. Ministers are on record as is solely for Network Rail. The problem that we often saying that they do not negotiate, but the Government hear about from passenger groups and operators is that were negotiating. As further FOI requests show, the Network Rail’s culture can prevent what are relatively previous Secretary of State put in place negotiations small and modest improvements to stations—such as between National Express and the Department for short works outside stations or improvements to line Transport about a possible management contract. To be capacity—from going ahead. Often, an operator might kind, the evidence given to the Committee was far from identify a platform that needs lengthening and be prepared the very fullest; FOI requests have subsequently shown to invest in that and work with Network Rail, but finds that certain elements, which should have been disclosed that Network Rail has not prioritised that issue. to the Committee, were not. That is an important part We believe that contracts and funding for smaller of the debate, and it needs to be raised this afternoon. scale capacity enhancement projects, which are currently In paragraph 16 of the report, the Committee states: dealt with by Network Rail, should be opened up to “Now is an ideal opportunity to keep the lucrative East Coast other providers, including—although not exclusively— franchise in the public sector.” 151WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 152WH

[Stephen Hammond] That is an interesting statement, given that his party wants to cut the public deficit more quickly than any It will not surprise the Chairman of the Select Committee other political party in Parliament. However, on a personal to know that although I agree with much of her report, level, I find those comments rather reassuring, because that is one thing that I emphatically reject. At a time it is my strong view that we need to continue investing in when the newly nationalised East Coast company, after our rail services. only three months in existence, has the worst punctuality We need to deliver major projects, and I am thinking and reliability figures, I would hope that the evidence is of not just Thameslink and Crossrail, but the northern on my side. The Committee concludes that there are hub, which is otherwise known as the Manchester hub underlying problems with the franchising model, and in the north-west, although those of us in the north everybody in this Chamber can agree with that conclusion. more generally see it as much more important than that and as a genuinely northern hub. We need the rolling Several hon. Members rose— stock for the Northern Rail franchise to be delivered, as the first part of what I hope will be a long-term investment Janet Anderson (in the Chair): Order. I owe hon. in improvements to passenger services in the north of Members an apology for having got the order of speakers England. We also need to invest in not only the promised slightly out of kilter. I should have called the Back high-speed rail developments, but expanded capacity Benchers first. on the traditional network. All of that is necessary. If we do not make that 3.12 pm investment, we will continue to see congestion on the road network. I can speak only about the north of Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough) (Lab): England and from personal experience, but it is already One encouraging aspect of the direction that we have difficult to use the M62, which is the major corridor taken on transport policy is the growing commitment from one side of the Pennines to the other. If people do from parties on both sides of the House to the future of not use it, they have to use the A roads, which are rail services. We may differ over how those services increasingly even more difficult to use. We will also start should be delivered, and I would certainly take issue to see an increasing impact on economic growth. I with the comments of the hon. Member for Wimbledon would rather that the country looked to the future and (Stephen Hammond) about the east coast main line, but made it clear that we should step up investment in rail that commitment is nevertheless there. That has been, services, rather than allowing the economy to be damaged and will be, shown by today’s contributions. because we had failed to invest in them. We have begun The context of today’s debate is rather important. In to realise that rail can promote economic growth. The recent years, passenger numbers have grown in a way point is not just that it helps to relieve congestion and that we have not seen for a significant time; indeed, we keep economic growth going; it can actually promote have the highest passenger numbers in 60 years. Some economic growth. 1.25 billion passenger journeys were made last year, and In that context, it is critical that we get the arrangements rail operators are providing 22 per cent. more services for the future running of our railway services right. than in the mid-1990s. In that sense, rail is clearly a That is why the debate is so important. It is also why I success story. was so ready, as a member of the Transport Committee, Why? The reasons are many. We have seen significant to sign up to the report’s key recommendation, which is investment in rail services in the past few years. Some that the franchising arrangements for our rail services may say that that investment has been on the slow side, should be revised to tackle the short-termism that has that we should have seen more of it and that it should characterised the granting of franchises over the past have been more of a priority for the Government, and few years. I would agree, but we should nevertheless acknowledge The impact of that short-term approach can already that significant investment has been made available. be seen. The last round of franchises was delivered on All parties involved in the delivery of rail services the basis that passenger numbers would grow by between have also shown an increased commitment to ensuring 9 and 10 per cent. and profits would rise by 10 per cent. that our railway network improves and becomes a great As the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member success story.Rail operators, passengers, passenger groups, for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) have made clear, the DFT, the Government and political parties have the franchises are let for a short period. That was begun to focus on the role that rail plays in getting predicated on a high premium and on a 10 per cent. people from A to B and on the positive impact that rail growth in passenger numbers and profits. That growth services can have on economic growth. Increasingly, has failed to materialise because of the recession, with people also have an awareness of the role that rail the result that the rail sector had suffered 7,000 job cuts services can play in reducing congestion on our road as of July 2009, the date of the report. Some 750 jobs network and the impact of carbon emissions on the were lost at National Express, 480 were lost at South environment. There are therefore many reasons why rail West Trains and 300 were lost at Southeastern Trains. services have grown in importance for the future of the We can ill afford those job cuts at a time when we all country and its economy and why that will continue. agree that we should be investing further in our railways. Continuing to invest in our rail services must surely On top of that we have, of course, the events surrounding be the way forward. It is interesting that the right hon. the east coast main line, the second default on one of and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) made our most important rail services. All the evidence suggests a speech in Yorkshire only the other week to the effect that it is the short-termism of our approach to investment that transport spending should not be cut in the forthcoming in the railways that produces defaults and creates the period, which will be very difficult for public spending. risks for the DFT, the Government and the public purse 153WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 154WH that must be tackled if we are to ensure that rail as well as car users. There has been a welcome start, but continues to be a success story and that we take it to the we need to build on it and recognise that the passenger next level. We have done well so far, but the cracks are experience is much more than getting to the station. It is appearing and we must deal with them and get the right time to look at the arrangements again. Not only do we arrangements for the future, because rail will play an need to review franchise length seriously; we need to increasingly important part in the future of the economy. take the opportunity of the review to consider how we Now is the time to pause and take stock of our deliver services to the passengers. We are going in the arrangements. right direction, but there is a lot more to do. I would strongly argue that we need to take a longer-term I have one last point to make about the franchising approach to franchising, and that the Select Committee arrangements, and it relates to the east coast main line. is right to argue for that. We have been pleased that the Surely, in an age in which ideology is seen to play much Secretary of State agrees with us about that. We should less of a role in public policy, it is time to recognise that be considering a minimum of 15 years, with all that that it is ideologically unforgiveable and, indeed, dogmatic, could bring, such as a greater commitment from the rail to insist that we cannot have an arm’s length operator as operators in their running of the services. The more part of the mix in our rail services. Many would argue they are seen as long-term partners in providing rail that that is anti-competitive, but I argue that in other services, and as having a long-term stake in the future of areas of Government policy we have arm’s length operators the business, the more likely it is that they will invest working alongside the traditional, private providers. In appropriately to get the long-term return. the housing market we increasingly have arm’s length The greatest impact of the short-term approach to management organisations for council housing stock, rail franchising is not just the potential risk to the which are on the verge of moving into not just housing public purse in situations of default such as the one stock maintenance, but the building of new stock. That affecting the east coast main line, but more than anything is what the return of the housing revenue account to the impact on customer service. It must be recognised local level is all about: competing, and sometimes that so far the franchising approach adopted by the co-operating—I would hope more often co-operating—with DFT has utterly failed in that respect. The quality of social housing providers, such as housing associations, customer service has never been a formal part of the to provide what the nation needs. franchising process, and it is what suffers first when a I cannot for the life of me understand why an arm’s franchise begins to suffer economic problems. There is length company working in the public sector can be a recession, so passenger numbers and profits fall, and seen to work in that context, but we cannot have that for customer service is cut. rail services. If East Coast is allowed to compete for the Everyone in the Chamber who uses rail services will next franchise for the east coast main line—and despite know what I am talking about. Cuts have been made to all the evidence that we have heard for the first three catering arrangements on many of our main rail services. months about poor punctuality and the rest of it I In some respects there has also been a spill-over into the suggest to the hon. Gentleman that that is a very short lower level maintenance services, so that for instance time in which to judge its performance—let us look at someone may get on to a train and not be able to get a that, when the time for bids comes. Why not just allow cup of tea because the boilers have failed and there is no East Coast to bid along with any other operator? It hot water. I am pretty convinced that that happens makes sense. because the train operators have not been in a position, We were told at the Select Committee by the permanent because of the premiums that they pay on the franchises, secretary, when I asked that question, that it would take to invest properly in the maintenance necessary to give a change in legislation to allow East Coast to compete an appropriate standard of customer service on a train. with other private market operators. Well, what are we That may not seem important in the context of getting here for? We are MPs; we are legislators. Let us do it. people to work and to airports, and allowing them to go Let us make the necessary changes in legislation to about their business; but if rail is to compete effectively allow East Coast to bid on a level playing field with with the car in future, we must offer passengers a other operators. That would potentially prove to be a quality experience. useful model for the future of rail services. I cannot Cold carriages where passengers cannot even get a understand why anyone would resist such a move. The decent cup of tea, sandwich or meal to keep them only possible reason why it might be resisted would be going, particularly when they are on the train a long that ideologically there could be a fear that it would time, do not make a quality experience. When people succeed. That is a pretty poor reason not to support it. have paid up to £240, or in some cases £270, to travel to Briefly, I agree with everything that the Select Committee London and back, on a two-and-a-half-hour journey, report said about fare structures. Paragraph 28 said that the least they can expect is what is promised in the blurb “passengers were faced with up to a dozen different fares for a on the operator’s website—the newspaper, the regular particular journey”. offer of hot drinks, the so-called snacks and the rest of It is getting increasingly difficult for passengers to work it. A lot of that is incredibly inconsistent and regularly out the best fare, in terms of price and service. I argue lets passengers down. That kind of experience will in also that the websites that allow the cheapest prices are the end damage the rail industry. not always the easiest websites in the world to use. As We also need more investment in stations and their someone who tries to use them reasonably regularly, capacity to cope with car and cycle numbers. I acknowledge even I become very frustrated sometimes with the inability the work done by the Secretary of State to ensure that of the websites to give me the information that I am in the future more attention will be paid, in franchises, looking for. I do not think that I am particularly unskilled to station arrangements such as cleanliness, the welcome at using websites. I do most of my purchasing online given to passengers, and the capacity to handle cyclists nowadays, but the thing that I find most difficult to do 155WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 156WH

[Ms Angela C. Smith] way that is co-ordinated, comfortable and offers a high- quality experience. We have not reached that position is to purchase a rail ticket. That says something about yet. There is a lot of work to do, and I look forward to the fares mechanisms and the fares offer that is on the my hon. Friend the Minister’s response. table from rail operators. We are getting into a rather unfair and strange situation 3.35 pm with rail services. Increasingly, passengers are using Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): It is a great pleasure discounted fares to use the trains and they are invariably to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, required to reserve a seat to use the services. However, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) for three reasons. First, it is the passengers who have to use open tickets—because always a delight to listen to her, particularly on the they do not know when they will be travelling down to a subject of transport, of which she has great knowledge. particular location or when they will be travelling back—pay Secondly, even though the main Chamber is today the full price and cannot reserve a seat because they do dominated by Welsh men and Welsh women, I calculate not know which train they will be catching, and they are that when we have finished in Westminster Hall, one increasingly unable to find a seat because the people third of the speakers will have come from God’s own paying £10 or £15 have made the reservations. The county of Yorkshire. As there is always a feeling in the situation is getting quite difficult in terms of how rail county that we lose out on rail expenditure, perhaps operators are treating their customers. I argue that rail that corrects the bias. The third reason is that I agreed operators cannot afford to lose the full fare price paying very much with my hon. Friend’s non-ideological approach customers on their trains and that the operators need to to these matters. Basically, she was saying that she is in give more thought to how they pitch their fares at favour of what works, and I am too. I shall consider a potential passengers. number of different franchises in north and west Yorkshire, In the long-term context of where rail services are going into south Yorkshire as well, and I shall give going and where the country is going, it is incredibly different policy conclusions on them, depending on important that we consider the overall price of travelling how well they are working. by train compared with travelling by car. If we are to I agree with my hon. Friend about the east coast make it possible for trains to compete effectively with main line. There is real frustration in Yorkshire in the car travel, we must make train travel attractive not just business community as well as those who travel for in terms of getting to the station, getting on the train leisure that for the second time in just a few years, the and using the train, but in terms of how much it costs to whole franchise has been thrown open to question. I use the service. For most people, if they have to pay the think that there was a very strong case, on the basis of full price fare or they have made a last-minute decision the public service comparator, for leaving it in the to travel, the chances are that they will choose the car public sector for perhaps 10 years. The hon. Member rather than the train, because the car is cheaper if they for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) cited the figures. are paying the full price for the train fare on offer. We It is interesting that in the south-east, some of the best need to think in the long term about how rail services figures ever for punctuality were recorded when the are priced. If we want more people to use the trains and south-eastern trains were operated as a public service. congestion on the roads to be reduced, the Government Let us just see what the evidence says; let us have a and the rail operators must think very seriously about comparator. Who could lose out from that? It now the long-term interests of the country when it comes to appears, however, that there will definitely be a refranchising how the services are priced. operation, so my fall-back position will be exactly the I want to mention the role of integrated transport same as my hon. Friend’s. Again, what is there to be authorities in our metropolitan areas in developing and afraid of? Why not let the East Coast company, as a organising rail services. The hon. Gentleman mentioned stand-alone public company, compete? It is difficult to the numbers of civil servants developing and putting overstate the frustration in Yorkshire that that main together timetables for rail services. I think that the artery, on which our economy is so dependent, is being ITAs would have some sympathy with that point of used as a sort of plaything. It needs much more long-term view, in that they are increasingly expressing an ambition stability. to be at least consultees on the delivery or the development However, the trans-Pennine franchise, particularly as of rail franchises and, beyond that, to play a much it operates through Selby and York, which I know well, fuller part in developing and delivering rail services. through to Leeds and Manchester, under First TransPennine If we are to deliver on our ambition in this country of Express has been a great success. Since the franchise putting together integrated transport networks, we must began in February 2004, the number of passengers has ensure that our train services work with our tram services, increased from 13.5 million to 22.3 million. The number our bus services and all the local transport services of passengers travelling to Manchester airport has increased across a particular region or sub-region. I understand by 67 per cent. In 2004-05, the punctuality figure was that there are difficulties with developing that devolution very low—74 per cent., which was one of the worst. The of control of rail services, but surely it is not beyond the franchise now has one of the best figures for punctuality— capacity of all the brains at the DFT to work out a more than 90 per cent. workable way of devolving control of rail services at There is a real case for extension of the franchise, local level to ITAs, so that we can start the real process which I think is allowed. I would be grateful if my hon. of putting together local rail services that work alongside Friend the Minister confirmed whether that is the case. tram and bus services. It should be possible for someone The House of Commons Library brief for the debate, living in south Yorkshire—someone living in Sheffield which is very helpful as always, suggests that a five-year or Barnsley—to get from home to the station on a bus extension is possible. I remind hon. Members that the or tram and to get from there to Leeds on a train in a franchise, as I understand it, runs out in February 2012. 157WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 158WH

My researcher kindly looked up a parliamentary of the franchises and that the Department wanted to question in May 2009, when the Under-Secretary of strangle some of them at birth—at an official level, that State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for was true five or six years ago. However, there has been a Gillingham (Paul Clark), said of the trans-Pennine change. Indeed, I have heard the Minister speak warmly franchise: about such services and their potential, and I hope that “There is a potential seven period extension at DfT discretion he will do so again. or 65 period extension by mutual agreement.”—[Official Report, Selby benefits from Hull Trains, which provides a 21 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 1494W.] pretty efficient service. I think that the economic value I am not quite sure what that means, but I believe that of a train service is a bit like having a championship or there is potential to extend the franchise. I am in my first division football club in the area. At King’s Cross third term as Selby’s MP.The second term was dominated, station, one can see Selby’s name on the destination in relation to transport, by complaints from commuters board; it is a direct service from London. I know that on the line. I am not saying that I do not still receive some of my hon. Friends in the north-east are equally some complaints, but the situation is an awful lot better. pleased that the Grand Central railway now takes people In terms of stability and continuation of service, it from Sunderland and Hartlepool directly to London. would be a very popular move in Yorkshire and the I understand that there are proposals to link the great Humber if the franchise was extended. city of Bradford directly to London, and also to provide a fast service from there to Manchester. Ian Yeowart, Chris Mole: It may be helpful if I advise hon. Members who helped to start Grand Central, is now trying to get that the general approach to franchise extensions is to options on paths—I understand that that is the proper monitor performance towards the end of the franchise technical term—to run various new services, including period against a set of criteria. The norm if those a cross-Pennine link from Hull to Liverpool, a fast link criteria are met is to grant a franchise extension. The between Bradford and Manchester, and services linking hon. Gentleman may be aware that that is not what London and Barnsley, Penistone and Huddersfield. Those happened with the Greater Anglia franchise, but that are all interesting ideas, yet none of the main train was an exception resulting from what happened with companies has ever shown an interest in linking those National Express, the parent company for the east towns and cities with London. I hope that the open coast. access proposals get a fair wind. It may seem an odd thing to say at the end of Mr. Grogan: The Minister has been most helpful. We February, as we approach spring, but I have always felt are approaching the end of the franchise, so if there is that the Government could do a little more about no extension—it is only two years away—there will be a Boxing day services. When the franchises come up for need for clarity over the next 12 months about what is renewal—most of them will do so over the next six or to happen. seven years—I hope that Ministers ask the new franchisees The Northern Rail franchise runs out in September to make a commitment to running Boxing day services. 2013. Northern is the workhorse of the Yorkshire franchises. Manchester airport station is on the First TransPennine We have already heard about the need for additional line. Boxing day is the most popular day of the year for rolling stock and so on, which prompts me to reflect on travel at the airport, yet one cannot get there by train. the remarks of the hon. Member for Wimbledon about Frankly, that would not be allowed at London’s airports, more flexibility in timetabling. We have a largely privatised which are all linked by trains on Boxing day. rail service and it needs a fairly strong centre, in the I am a great admirer of Lord Adonis and of his plans Department for Transport or elsewhere, to knock heads for high-speed rail. He has put rail on the map. However, together among the franchisees to get some sort of he has missed a trick. I am pleased that both Opposition overall strategy for the rail network. spokesmen agree that there should be some provision In recent months, we have been in the mire of the for people going to the sales, attending sporting matches recession, and I believe that if train companies had been and so on. When Ministers consider their arguments allowed to cut services and thin out the timetable they privately, they must see that they do not stand up. Every would have done so. It would have been inevitable in other country in Europe manages it, and most run recent months, and passengers in Yorkshire and elsewhere services on Christmas day, although I do not suggest would have lost out. Many people depend on Northern that we should do so. Rail services. When the specification for the new franchise after 2013 is drawn up, I would make one plea. The Chris Mole indicated dissent. Leeds to Goole line, which goes through my constituency, calls at Whitley Bridge and Hensall as well as Goole, which is a small market town, not dissimilar to Selby Mr. Grogan: I would be interested to hear the Minister’s and not far from it. Selby has an excellent commuter list of countries that do not run trains on 26 December. service to Leeds, but Goole has only two trains a day. The town is under-served, which is not logical or sensible. Ms Angela C. Smith: Does my hon. Friend not agree With a new franchise, a case could be made for having that a really good starting point would be more Sunday more services. services? Moving swiftly on to those services that are not part of a franchise—the open access services, which have Mr. Grogan: Indeed it would. Ministers have two played a real part in improving rail services in recent arguments against running trains over Christmas. The years—there has been a change in the Department for first is that railway workers deserve time off over the Transport’s attitude over the past five or six years. The holiday period; but then they say that engineering works fear was that open access services could devalue some are necessary. It is a rather contradictory argument. 159WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 160WH

[Mr. Grogan] The last thing that the railway industry needs is uncertainty, especially as we need growth. The priority As I said, every other country in Europe manages to must be to increase the network, get more people on run some services over Christmas and also keep up trains, and get more infrastructure in place. Navel gazing maintenance standards. Ministers are losing the argument, will not be useful. Whatever the House collectively and they should do so with good grace. Even before the comes up with will have to be constructive, and we next election—I predict that we will have a majority of should not take our eye off that particular ball. 75—the Government should make an announcement There is no question but that the franchises have been about the new franchises. too short, and that they have been moving towards an increased specification. I understand the temptation to Chris Mole: Would my hon. Friend have the good do that; all of us as MPs get lobbied. We are often grace to acknowledge that at least 50 per cent. more asked, “Why doesn’t this train do this?”, “Why isn’t services ran during this Christmas period than the there a buffet car?” or “Why is the Southampton buffet previous Christmas? not open at 10 o’clock tonight?” So there is a temptation to increase the width of the franchise documents to Mr. Grogan: Yes; of course I will admit that, but it is ensure that all those points are covered, including points 50 per cent. of a very small base figure. However, there about Boxing day, with which I happen to agree. That is a regional bias, I am pretty sure that we had not one temptation needs to be resisted, otherwise we end up service in God’s own county of Yorkshire, but there with an unwieldy document that involves a gigantic were rather a lot in the south-east where Department amount of civil servants’ time, stifles any innovation for Transport civil servants tend to live. and means that companies cannot respond to changes as they have to. That is one of the reasons why franchises Mrs. Ellman: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Select have been brittle in recent years. Committee considered that matter? We have urged greater efficiency in Network Rail’s maintenance work, which Therefore, we need to move towards longer could include doing more work off-line. That would franchises—my party is on an even keel with the allow the railways to be used more frequently, thus Conservatives here—and arrangements that are based meeting the needs of the travelling public. on passenger-orientated outputs, or the sorts of things that passenger focus groups measure. We should not Mr. Grogan: My case is getting stronger with every specify when the booking office is open or when the contribution. It would be such a pity if, at the next buffet is open at Southampton Central, but we should election, two party manifestos contained a commitment regularly ask passengers, “Are you satisfied with the to move on that question but the party that I love had service you are getting on your line? Here are the not quite made that move. I hope that it will reflect on criteria we want you to look at.” If a rail company has a the matter. long franchise, say one of 22 years, then its performance should be measured every five years. If passengers are I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, not satisfied, the franchise should be taken away. If Hillsborough about the importance of integrated transport passengers are happy, the franchise should be kept by authorities. We in Selby are looking forward to the west the company, and that should give an incentive to the Yorkshire MetroCard system being extended. It has company delivering the service to worry about matters already been extended to Skipton and Harrogate, and it such as Boxing day services. It also means that they will will be a great boon to commuters in the years ahead. be looking to the passenger for approval and not the Treasury. That is a very important shift to make if we 3.48 pm are to move the railways further forward in responding to passenger needs. Such a system will deal with the Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I am encouraged by the cold carriages and the overpriced tickets, which are consensus between the hon. Members for Liverpool, matters that regularly and unnecessarily irritate passengers. Riverside (Mrs. Ellman), for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) I think that we all recognise—certainly my party and for Selby (Mr. Grogan). On behalf of my party, I does—that the longer franchise regime can bring in the hope to demonstrate the same. In parenthesis, may I say opportunity for investment. I agree that the Chiltern that that could be useful in the event of a hung Parliament, model is very helpful, and it will bring in a new link as it might give us the opportunity to make progress in between Oxford and London, which will give not only areas where parties agree rather than where they disagree? extra capacity but more opportunities for different journeys I hope that we can include the Minister in that consensus. to be made. That is a relatively simple infrastructure I am confident that we can include the Secretary of measure that can be very useful in growing the network. State, having spoken to him, but the Minister seemed to We have not done enough in considering those relatively be inventing his own policies earlier today. I hope that inexpensive measures that can make a big difference to that is not reflected in his response to the debate. the infrastructure of the network. The general view of the franchise regime, which I We have all been very busy on high-speed rail, which share, is that by and large the concept is working, but has a vital role to play in the future. I notice that all not the detail. We need to make changes to how the three parties are now committed to it to a greater or franchise system is applied. I am pleased that no one lesser degree. We must not take our eye off the ball and has made a case for hugely destructive changes to the neglect the lesser improvements that can be important franchise arrangements or for throwing everything up in delivering better services. The Skipton to Colne railway in the air like confetti and seeing where all the pieces should be reopened. There is no logical or economic land. The latter would be rather like the unfortunate argument for not doing so. Improvements such as the reorganisation of 1994. Todmorden curve and, dare I say it, the Lewes to 161WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 162WH

Uckfield railway line in my own constituency should be the train company arising from track access charges. I delivered. I notice that improvements such as the Stirling am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman’s argument to Alloa line and the Ebbw Vale line are under way in stands. Scotland and Wales. The Government’s own formula told us that they would not be successful yet, lo and Norman Baker: I believe that there is a relationship behold, when they opened they were tremendously that needs to be considered. I draw the Minister’s attention successful. That leads me to say that the Government’s to the recent publication by ATOC that makes that very formula needs to be significantly revised if we are to get point. I will happily send him a copy if he has not seen some sensible idea as to whether rail schemes will be it. profitable or not. The Select Committee rightly referred to the issue of The downside of long franchises, which the Minister special purpose vehicles. I will not repeat what was said, half hinted at in his intervention earlier on, relates to but I agree with the Chairman of the Committee on the the unpredictability of the economic situation. It is matter. There is a question about what the penalty difficult to predict how GDP will be growing, the strength should be if a company wants to walk away from a of the economy and what the state of the rail network franchise, and whether that should then be reflected in will be in five, 10 or 15 years—or, to be perfectly honest, other franchises that it holds. That is a difficult question. even one year. It is quite clear that the present arrangements I took the view that if National Express was going to are brittle and do not allow for that flexibility to enable walk away from the East Coast franchise, there was a train companies to respond sensibly. On the one hand case for taking away its other two franchises. There was we must ensure that train companies do not make certainly a case for removing the uncertainty from the excessive profits—the Select Committee mentioned that passengers as to what would happen to those two in its report—and run away with money, which the particular franchises. There is a case for penalising public quite rightly would not be happy about, and on National Express for the current situation, even though the other we must ensure that train companies are not it is not all its fault. However, there is another side to put in a position in which they cannot meet their the matter. As the hon. Member for Wimbledon said, obligations and have to walk away from a franchise. We c2c has achieved some of the best performance on the have to move the cap-and-collar arrangements that are rail network, and it is difficult to argue that people currently in place towards something that is externally taking the line to Southend should have a franchise validated. Perhaps the answer is to move towards a operator taken away when the company is successfully relationship with GDP,which would enable train companies delivering for them, even though the company overall is to be protected in difficult times and the taxpayer and not delivering to the Government. I do not have an passenger to get the benefit in good times. That may not answer to that. I just throw up the question because it is be an exact fit, but it is a better fit than the cap-and-collar a difficult one to resolve. arrangements that we have at the moment. At a time when the economy is going up and down, Chris Mole: The hon. Gentleman needs to be aware—and we could consider changing the track access charges I am sure that the Chamber will want to be—that the that train companies have to pay to Network Rail. Why c2c franchise is being retendered at this point only should Network Rail always have the same amount of because it was at the end of its natural life. money and be protected from the chill wind of the economy? Surely it should take some of the risk as well, Norman Baker: I accept that. There would have been and we should consider varying the charges at times of an option for the Government, I think, to end the economic downturn. franchise early. Obviously, they took legal advice on the matter. The franchise had not run for long so they Chris Mole: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how he would have been making a political point. Pragmatically, would bring investment into the rail infrastructure if the idea of letting it run to the end was probably the Network Rail had that uncertainty about its forward right one in this particular case. financial income? A couple of Members have spoken of the need to involve local bodies in the franchising process, including Norman Baker: The amount of money Network Rail the integrated transport authorities. The hon. Member has is enormous compared with that of a train operating for Sheffield, Hillsborough made that point in her company. When the train company bears the entire risk contribution. I very much agree. However, I gently of the economic downturn, as it does at present under remind her that I tabled an amendment to the Local the cap-and-collar arrangements, that is quite a significant Transport Act 2008 to that effect, to try to ensure that risk for it to take. If some of that risk was shared with local authorities and ITAs were more involved in their Network Rail—I am not suggesting that all of it should local rail services. I made the case for that change on be shared—the percentage of Network Rail’s money that occasion, and I will not repeat it now. However, if affected by such an arrangement would be marginal ITAs and local councils are concentrating on roads and compared with the percentage of a train company’s buses, which is what they do, and they are being kept income. That is why it would be possible to do that out of the rail process entirely, it is not surprising that, without unduly disrupting Network Rail. when they put in their bids for money, those bids are road-related and not rail-related. We must ensure that Chris Mole: My understanding is that there are fixed those bodies see local transport more in the round than and variable components to the track access charges, they do at present. and that the resourcing that the train operating company Of course, the east coast main line has been referred receives from the Department is consistent with the to. I welcome the fact that at least three Members fixed component, so there is no variation or impact on who have spoken in the debate so far, including the 163WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 164WH

[Norman Baker] going on now with that service. The consultation is now about reducing the length of route on which two-car Chairman of the Transport Committee, the hon. Member trains operate. So, rather than having more carriages, for Liverpool, Riverside, believed that there was a case which is what everybody wants, we will have a reduced for having a public sector comparator. Having such a route, if that option is chosen. comparator has very much been our party’s position. In my area, we will also have cascaded dustbin trains We supported that with Southeastern, when it was from the north London line—clapped-out 313s, which temporarily in the public sector. We support it with the are 1976 rolling stock—replacing 2004 377s. That cannot east coast main line, and I believe that there is a case, make any sense, and it is deeply unpopular with my even now, for that line to be held in the public sector for constituents, as Members will no doubt appreciate. an extended period, as a comparator. However, it appears to be Southern’s only option. Having If we are now moving collectively across parties looked into the situation, I do not blame Southern for towards a more passenger-orientated, target-based franchise it, given the configuration of the rolling stock and the arrangement—that seems to be the move—why do we instructions that the Government have given Southern not try that arrangement now on the east coast main about what it can and cannot do. I am afraid that that is line, while it is in the public sector and see what comes an example of the Government intervening unhelpfully of it? Let us try that now; it does not cost anything, in such a way that the rail company will get the blame particularly. If we cannot do that and the franchise for the problems, when, in fact, the hand of the Government must be retendered, I agree that East Coast should be behind the company is causing them. allowed to bid, if it is possible for it to do so. Southern has also been handed 442 rolling stock, which happens to be quite acceptable. Nevertheless, we Mrs. Ellman: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, are now asking Southern to operate a vast complex of because we now have information that the letting of the different kinds of rolling stock all on the same section franchise has begun, it is a matter of great concern that of railway line. That cannot be good for efficiency. The it appears to preclude the public sector operating a opportunity to mix and match different carriages is service so that a comparison can be made between the limited by the fact that they do not couple. That sort of public and private sectors over a longer term? over-involvement by the Government in rolling stock Norman Baker: The hon. Lady makes a very good has not been helpful to Southern, and I suspect that point. We need to look at legislation in particular; if it that is mirrored elsewhere in the country. needs to be changed, it needs to be changed. In fact, my When the Minister replies to the debate, will he say reading of the law in my discussions with the Department something about the Government’s rolling stock plans? for Transport suggests that there is a need for a change I ask that because we have these mythical carriages do in legislation if we are going to allow East Coast to bid not always seem to materialise, and we also had the for the east coast main line. I am afraid that that announcement last year of the creation of Diesel Trains legislation was written for unnecessary and dogmatic Ltd, which was then uncreated very shortly afterwards. reasons in the privatisation proposals from the Conservatives Since then, we have had no announcement whatsoever at the time that rail was privatised, unnecessarily shutting about what is happening with the rolling stock. When down that avenue. However, the point made earlier by will the Government make a statement on rolling stock, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough was that, so that we are quite clear what is going to happen with if East Coast can bid in a way that will produce the best both the 1,300 carriages and the plans to replace the result, let us have East Coast bid. If it does not produce diesel trains that were initially announced and then the best bid, it will not win the franchise. I cannot see cancelled? what will be lost by allowing that process to happen. We need to recognise that one of the constraints on If we are going to give train operating companies the train companies is the control of the timetable, longer franchises and more freedom, we need to look at which is with Network Rail. Some train companies have the constraints that exist that prevent them from operating been able to negotiate shorter journey times, particularly in a way that might maximise the benefit for the passengers. when they are in competition with air travel. An example One of those constraints is undoubtedly the unnecessarily is the Virgin west coast main line service, following the detailed interference in rolling stock arrangements that, improvements that have been made to that line. Other I am afraid, the Government seem to be increasingly train companies, particularly those in a captive commuter indulging in. Indeed, the Government seem to be sidelining market, have been less lucky. The hon. Member for the rolling stock companies as far as possible, not least Wimbledon will doubtless be aware, as this relates to his in the preparation of the intercity express programme own constituency, that the journey time into central train for the east coast, and they are doing so at vast London from Wimbledon is now three minutes longer cost and with dubious benefit. than it was in 1930. That does not seem to be much of I will take the example of my own constituency. The an improvement in the 80 years that the railways have rolling stock is such that we have overcrowded two-car operated since then. diesel trains from Ashford to Brighton. It is not possible Let me turn briefly to the fares issue, which was dealt to get a third carriage, because there are none in the with in the other part of the Transport Committee country, and the company—Southern—is not allowed report. I think that the hon. Member for Sheffield, to procure any. That is a nonsensical position for Southern Hillsborough referred to the fact that the cost of travelling to be in, and it is also unnecessarily restrictive, in by train has risen by 50 per cent. since 1977. In fact, limiting Southern’s flexibility to improve the service. that is the relative figure. It has risen by 13 per cent. The service is subject to an ongoing timetable since Labour came to power in 1997, although that consultation. Whether we should have those timetable trend has been apparent under successive Governments. consultations is another matter, but we have got one However, the cost of motoring has fallen by 14 per cent. 165WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 166WH since 1997, and the cost of aviation, which is far worse a ticket, so why have it in the book? Why not just cut than rail in carbon terms, has fallen by 35 per cent. the price by two thirds? They might actually sell a since 1997. couple of tickets. We have the absurdity that the more carbon that someone emits, the cheaper it becomes to travel, and the Chris Mole: I just want to assure the hon. Gentleman less carbon that someone emits, the more expensive it that, apparently, the publication of that figure in the becomes to travel. All three major parties have agreed first instance was an error. The fare was corrected in to a target of cutting carbon emissions by 80 per cent. December. by 2050. If we are seriously committed to tackling climate change transport must play its part, and we Norman Baker: I give way to the Committee Chairman. must recognise that financial incentives and disincentives will determine what people do. If it is cheaper to get Mrs. Ellman: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it into the car to go from A to B, people will get in the car. is also to be regretted that there has been a reduction in That is the logical response of any individual. So what the times during which off-peak saver tickets can be are the Government going to do to try to ensure that used? For example, on the Liverpool to London route—I there is more of a relationship between the carbon am sure that it happens in other areas as well—fewer emitted in transport and the cost of travelling? At the trains can now be used for off-peak services. That is moment, the situation is humpty-dumpty, upside-down another, hidden way of reducing services and value for and creates all sorts of perverse incentives. the passenger. What are the Government going to do to get Britain off the bottom of a league table where the distance that Norman Baker: That is exactly right. Some train someone can go for a tenner on off-peak fares—not on companies have introduced super-saver fares to persuade first-class fares, or on anything else—is less in this the Government that they need not worry so much country than it is in any other country in Europe? about off-peak fares. As soon as the train companies Effectively, someone can travel the distance between have their way on off-peak fares, the super-savers disappear London and John O’Groats for a tenner if they happen or become almost unobtainable. We must be careful. to live in Serbia, but someone in this country can only Train companies are using their flexibility on unregulated get from London to Basildon for the same amount of fares to the maximum to push them up in a completely money. I invite Members to decide whether they want unhelpful way. There is a serious issue of regulation for to be in John O’Groats or in Basildon, but that comparison the Government in how they deal with the comparison between countries is not an edifying one for someone between regulated and unregulated fares. There is a case wanting to buy a rail ticket in this country. for introducing a ratio, so that walk-on fares never cost more than a certain multiple of the pre-booked advance There are other unacceptable confusions with rail fare. That might be one way to deal with the problem. fares. For example, there are the split-ticket arrangements, Things certainly cannot be allowed to carry on as they whereby if someone wants to go from Bristol Temple are. Meads station to London direct it can cost £74.50, but There is another issue—it is a techie issue, but Passenger if they go from Bristol to Didcot and then from Didcot Focus raised it with me yesterday—about the distribution to London it only costs £53.20. How can that be sensible? of ticket moneys. I understand that an incentive exists There are far too many complications in the fare system for the train companies to sell advance fares because that need to be sorted out. ATOC has now rightly they keep the money, whereas they have to share more begun a consultation, but unless it deals with the complexity of the money from walk-on fares. I do not understand of fares, as well as the actuality of fares, it will not be how that works, but it certainly seems to be an issue. If sufficient. it is true, there might be a case for saying that the train The Chairman of the Transport Committee referred companies should keep the money from the walk-on in her contribution to the increasing divergence between fares and share the money from the advance tickets. regulated and unregulated fares. That divergence is That might be a better way of encouraging them to keep becoming ever wider, which is unhelpful. For example, walk-on fare prices down. there is no point in having a walk-on service, as we now The fares issue will not go away. It will be the biggest have on the west coast main line—that service runs inhibitor of train travel in the years to come. It would every 20 minutes, which is fantastic—if the fares operate be tempting for a Government of no matter what against a walk-on service and passengers have to book colour, faced with a difficult financial situation after the in advance. That does not make any sense. It minimises next election, to push up rail fares to skew even further the benefit of the west coast main line upgrade on the balance between what the passenger pays and what which the Government spent so much money. the taxpayer pays. That would also be a way to limit When I went to Warrington Bank Quay, my office business on the railways to restrain the clamour for produced a return ticket costing £215. When I said, further enhancements. That was British Rail’s policy “No, I want to go standard, not first class,” they said, back in the 1970s and 1980s. We do not want to return “That is standard. First class is much more.” A £215 to those days. ticket to Warrington and back is not good value. As for Social desire for mobility, the environmental case and the £1,002 first-class open return fare from Cornwall to the business case all demand an expansion of the railways Scotland quoted in the papers, I understand that the at a price that people can sensibly and realistically company sold only one ticket, to a journalist who afford. That needs a change in Government policy to wanted to carry out the journey. Perhaps the Minister ensure that the railways do not simply become a plaything has gone on that trip. Why do the train companies not for those who are better off than the people who use do themselves a favour? Nobody will pay that much for them now. 167WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 168WH

4.14 pm the economic cycle, not just in a downturn. The recent downturn has tested the performance of the current The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport system in exceptional circumstances. National Express’s (Chris Mole): It is a pleasure to serve under your inability last year to continue its East Coast franchise chairmanship, Mrs. Anderson. I welcome the opportunity due to economic conditions was regrettable. The current to have this debate, which comes at a good time. Three franchise system takes account of the fact that franchisees new franchise competitions will be launched this year: may face financial difficulties, and is designed so that Essex Thameside, which currently trades as C2C, Greater core passenger services are not disrupted if an operating Anglia and the East Coast franchise. We have heard company defaults. The cost of terminating the East some interesting contributions from the Chair of the Coast franchise will be recovered from a performance Select Committee on Transport, my hon. Friend the bond maintained by National Express East Coast. The Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman), from overall cost to the taxpayer will depend on factors such my hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Hillsborough as ticketing revenue over the next 18 months, but the (Ms Smith) and for Selby (Mr. Grogan), and from the Government will receive all the revenues. two Opposition spokespersons. That high-profile default and subsequent contractual The National Audit Office report on rail franchising, termination must be viewed against the broader canvas published in 2008, found that the franchise system had of franchising as a whole. However, events have led us delivered good value for taxpayers and generated keen to reconsider the current franchise arrangements designed competition for franchises. We remain committed to to ensure that the train operator remains solvent and raising operational performance through the rail franchising cannot walk away from the contract without a monetary process. By 2014, for example, we want punctuality to penalty. We therefore propose to increase the amount of reach 92.6 per cent. or better. However, the performance the bond that franchise operators provide to cover the of the franchise system in the recession raises inevitable Department’s costs in the event of default. We will also questions and highlights major issues about how franchise re-examine how parental guarantees are calculated, so contracts and competitions handle risk and responsibility. that owning groups are required to stand behind losses To set out our thinking and potential changes in the incurred by the operator to a predetermined level. We next round of franchises, the Department for Transport propose to make it easier for operators to invest their published “The Future of Rail Franchising”on 20 January own money during the life of a franchise and receive this year. We are still debating the issues, so the views of part of that investment back after the franchise ends. In the Committee are particularly timely and valuable. assessing bids, we intend to place greater weight on Franchising must strike difficult balances between additional ideas and options generated by bidders. competing objectives. The Committee report recognises that when it points out that contractual controls on services, ticket offices and fares protect passengers, but Stephen Hammond: I am interested in the Minister’s prevent operators from responding in a downturn by last two remarks, and wonder whether he will explain reducing services and costs. The Government have invited them. I am intrigued by the size of the performance views on that and several other key matters considered bond that National Express gave the Department, which in “The Future of Rail Franchising”. Operational challenges I understand was £40 million, although he may not be vary between franchises, as does the scope for investment, able to give an indication of that. What increase in the new stock or major service change. That is why each performance bond does he think would be necessary for franchise must be considered separately. a longer-life franchise? He just slipped in a remark that operators might be expected to put in extra investment, There is no division between the Secretary of State which they might get back. Will he explain that thinking? and me on the question. The point that I was testing with the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) was about the Conservative line, which seems to be that Chris Mole: On the first point, we would want to be if we extended franchises to 20 years or more irrespectively, sure that what we were getting from the business not it would somehow solve all the problems. The hon. only covered the administrative costs associated with Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) may have suggested refranchising, which is the primary purpose of the the same in the past. However, I welcome the recognition bond, but recognised that the taxpayer would not be that the KPMG report has brought new thinking on getting the benefit of a premium payment, which they how variations in the economy during the life of a might have got had the franchise continued for longer. franchise might enable the management of risk sharing We would have to assess how much that came to and over the length of the franchise. build it into the franchise. Of course, there is a cost We intend that the next rail franchises will be let for a associated with asking the bidders to do that. On the minimum of 10 years. Bidders will be able to make anticipation that operators might invest more money, I proposals for terms longer than 10 years in return for understand that there are concerns among operators commitments to additional investment. That will allow about whether they will realise the benefits of investing us to receive the benefits of continuity and longer-term in stations, for example, during the life of the franchise partnership. However, we would not want to rule out they hold or whether those benefits will accrue to the shorter franchises in future. There is no single right operator that takes on the franchise afterwards. length for a franchise, as changes on the network can make the future of the business hard to predict for Stephen Hammond: Is the Minister implying that he prospective bidders. would expect a residual value at the end of a longer One of the most important issues that we are considering franchise that may have to be transferred and that a is the allocation of risk. The franchise system must be performance payment might be needed from the new designed to deliver for passengers and taxpayers across franchisee to cover that residual value? 169WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 170WH

Chris Mole: I think the hon. Gentleman has put it made it into a longer-term public comparator. Among quite well. the dozen or more franchises, not a great number are comparable with the East Coast, which is a majority Norman Baker: It is helpful for the Minister to recognise long-distance operator. There are many commuter, short- that conundrum. I draw to his attention the fact that the distance and regional franchises. cap-and-collar arrangements also discourage train Generally, our approach to franchises is about recognising companies from investing, because a great deal of the that they are all different. For that reason, I am unconvinced benefits they accrue is deemed to be generated profit that a comparison could be achieved. Perhaps the Southern and therefore returns to the Department. Is there a way franchise mentioned by the hon. Member for Selby to ring-fence the innovations of train companies so that could provide a decent comparison with other commuter they are not caught by those arrangements? franchises into London as they are broadly of the same nature, but I do not think it can be argued that there can Chris Mole: We would always seek to avoid such be much comparison between the East Coast franchise protection arrangements that produce perverse incentives, and the South West Trains franchise. such as discouraging operators from investing in the promotion of additional journeys because the benefits Ms Angela C. Smith: The Minister ruled out the would not accrue to them, but return to the Department. possibility of a comparator on the grounds that it is As I was saying, in assessing bids, we intend to place anti-competitive. It has been suggested that we allow an greater weight on additional ideas and options generated arm’s length company to compete with private train by bidders. We are looking at rewarding franchisees that operators. Surely that would be a sensible and undogmatic come up with investment or improvement proposals to way forward. be delivered after the contract term. We need to keep a strong focus on performance and make sure franchisees Chris Mole: I do not believe that we could make that deliver for passengers. All rail franchises incorporate happen at this time. performance requirements, which we monitor closely. We aim to ensure that all rail franchise commitments Stephen Hammond: The Minister will probably not are delivered, that franchise agreements are complied thank me, but I will try to come to his aid. First, if such with and that, if appropriate, the taxpayer is reimbursed a company had to bid against other bidders, the when operators do not deliver the obligations in their Government would face the suspicion of a conflict of franchise agreements. interests. Secondly, to have such a public company Mrs. Ellman: Does the Minister agree that Passenger would be to plough a huge additional subsidy from the Focus does excellent work in monitoring how passengers taxpayer into the industry. How could we be sure that feel about the experience of rail travel, and that its that would provide the best value for money for the concerns should be taken up and its recommendations taxpayer? considered seriously? Chris Mole: Whether it did or did not, there would be Chris Mole: If my hon. Friend has a little patience, I the suspicion of a conflict of interests and there would will come to that matter in a few paragraphs. be such accusations. The Department adopts a stepped approach to enforcement to ensure that any action taken is proportionate Ms Smith: I thank the Minister for giving way a to the contravention. We have a range of tools, including second time; he is most generous. As I said earlier, there the Secretary of State’s powers to make an enforcement are models to prove that his objections are not the case. order or impose a financial penalty. If an operator falls Local government has operated models for some time below the defined levels, we can require them to produce that allow competition between arm’s-length companies a remedial plan to restore performance, but if deterioration and private sector operators. They show it is possible to continues, the Department can terminate the franchise. prevent the appearance and reality of conflicts of interest It remains our position that we do not renegotiate and of the unhelpfulness of subsidies to arm’s-length franchises. We expect operators to abide by the requirements operators. of their franchise agreements. There have been calls for the East Coast franchise to remain under Government control as a public sector Chris Mole: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that comparator. That is not possible, because legislation clarification. I understand more clearly the point she is requires franchises to be put out to competition. Data trying to make. I fall back on the belief that such a from the months of public operation will of course help move would inject uncertainty into the industry, which us to learn more about the business. However, I do not would be unhelpful and would not ensure that we got believe that robust conclusions about public versus the best services and value for the taxpayer in the longer private ownership could be drawn from a longer period term. of public operation. Mrs. Ellman: I have something of significance to add Norman Baker: I accept that a legislative bar exists, to the argument. Is my hon. Friend the Minister aware but does the Minister accept that it would not be that I received a letter from the Secretary of State in complicated or time consuming to remove it? January this year on this very topic? The end of the letter states: Chris Mole: Whether or not that is the case, I am not “Any bids for the new franchise will have to demonstrate better sure that it would be good for the industry to inject such value for money than the state operator. If they do not, then the uncertainty into the framework. I am also not sure what new franchise will not be awarded and the franchise will continue could be compared with the East Coast franchise if we to be run by East Coast.” 171WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 172WH

[Mrs. Ellman] Train operators continue to feel the effects of the economic slowdown. We naturally try to take an informed Will he publish the criteria and details of how the view about what might happen to franchisees. Franchise comparative value would be assessed? Does he agree agreements require operators regularly to supply the that the statement in the letter I received from the Department with detailed and forward-looking financial Secretary of State suggests that it is, indeed, possible for information, including business plans and rolling forecasts. the franchise to remain in the public sector? Speculation about whether franchisees might default would be improper, and would destabilise the market. Chris Mole: I think that that is a different assertion Ultimately, we cannot be certain what actions a parent from suggesting that the franchise should be awarded to group or franchisee might take until we are notified some kind of arm’s length public sector operator. What of a default. that letter is saying is that if we are not satisfied we will The hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) get a bid that offers better value, it would not be in the sought to wring the last available point of political taxpayer’s interest to award the franchise to a business benefit out of his freedom of information inquiries, but that is going to cost the taxpayer more. That is simply I think he has misunderstood what the then Secretary of common sense. The implication is that we would have to State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield return to the market and start the process again. However, (Mr. Hoon), was saying on 1 May 2009 in looking at a this time, given the success of the South Central franchising management contract. There was certainly no commitment process, we are confident that the market will bring to put a management contract in place; it is just one of forward bids that will satisfy our expectations. I will the options for maintaining services and protecting look into how much of the information that my hon. passengers when we know that a franchise might be Friend has asked for can be published, but she will be moving towards potential financial difficulties. If a aware that the commercial sensitivity around a lot of management contract had been put in place, it would these processes will disable us from exposing what a have been very short term and it would have been done bidder’s content might be in terms of their business to allow refranchising to take place—nothing more or plan, financial viability and so on. less than that. The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood what was happening. Norman Baker: I am sure the Minister does not want to give way, but I am grateful to him for doing so, Stephen Hammond: It is clear from the response to nevertheless. He is dancing on the head of a pin. To the FOI request that the previous Secretary of State, the make the assessment that the Secretary of State has just right hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon), instructed been quoted as wanting to deliver, a bid must be effectively that management contract negotiations should begin constructed by East Coast in order to make a comparison. between the parties of the Department for Transport If the bid is effectively constructed and it can “win” and National Express. That is made quite clear in the because it is deemed to be better than other companies response to the FOI request. I have not misunderstood who are bidding, that is a bid by any other definition. Is anything, and whether it was a short-term arrangement it not the case that what we are arguing for is, in fact, is irrelevant. It is not appropriate to say the situation being considered by the Secretary of State? Is this has been misunderstood, because the key point is that another example of where his policies are rather different negotiations were undertaken. Ministers from the from those of the Minister? Department later said no such negotiations were taking place but, through the release of departmental papers, Chris Mole: I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman the previous Secretary of State has shown that they can reach that conclusion from those exchanges, because were. it is not the one I would have reached. I certainly do not believe he should put that interpretation on what the Chris Mole: No, no, no. Clearly, the purpose of a Secretary of State intends. management contract is not to renegotiate the franchise Moving on, there remains a strong argument for with the franchisee for the remaining life of the franchise; sharing some measures of wider economic risk with it is to prepare and protect passengers and services franchisees. Train operators have a number of levers to during a period when there may be some uncertainty. increase revenues, but they cannot control the economy. That is not the same as renegotiating a franchise to We are considering improving the mechanisms within allow the franchise holder to stay in place for the the contract that protect train operators from the effects duration of the franchise, which I believe is the normal of recession and ensure operators do not make windfall interpretation of renegotiating a franchise. profits in good times, which was the point the hon. I would like to move on to fares, which I know is a Gentleman made. subject of interest to many hon. Members and their The recently-let South Central franchise is a good constituents. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the example of a passenger-focused franchise. Southern has policies that the Government have in place. As I suggested announced an investment of £28 million to improve in my intervention on the Chair of the Select Committee, facilities at stations. That investment will meet the more than 60 per cent. of all rail journeys are made on contractual requirement to refurbish 34 stations, and regulated fares. The Government limit most operators will provide new cycle and car park spaces. More to an average increase in regulated fares of no more passenger-focused franchises will become the norm. We than 1 per cent. above inflation each year. have given Passenger Focus an enhanced role within the Regulated fares are there to protect those who generally specification process, which emphasises the importance have little alternative to rail when making necessary that the Department places on passenger needs. I hope journeys—for example, season ticket holders or those that addresses the Select Committee Chair’s point. needing to purchase a ticket on the day of travel for 173WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 174WH longer-distance journeys, where a regulated flexible fare, Ms Smith: Passenger growth has to some extent been such as the off-peak return or super off-peak return, fuelled by the fact that the road networks are getting so would apply. I was a little bemused, shall we say, by the congested, particularly in the south-east of England, hon. Member for Lewes making robust assertions that there is no choice but to use the trains. There has about changes in unregulated fares, because the only been a success story, as I acknowledged in my earlier conclusion one can draw from that is that he believes contribution, but we are rapidly coming to the point at they should somehow become regulated fares, or that which the fare prices on offer could impact on future all fares should be regulated. That is a retrograde step if growth of the railways. It is not necessarily a given that we want franchisees to be able to use their initiative to growth will continue regardless of the fares. provide fares that are competitive and attractive to the travelling public. Chris Mole: I do not want to disagree with my hon. Friend, but the evidence we have indicates that ridership Norman Baker: If I may say so, the Minister was not will continue to rise in the coming years, which is why listening very clearly to what I was saying because I we are making unprecedented levels of investment in suggested two mechanisms to try to make matters better. the rail network. One suggestion was to have a ratio relationship between My noble Friend the Secretary of State appeared regulated and unregulated fares, beyond which they before the Transport Committee last June to talk about could not rise. That is not the same as deciding what fares and a change that was made in the way fares are every fare should be; it is setting a maximum ceiling. regulated. We removed the flexibility for train operators The second suggestion was to look at the rather techie to increase individually regulated fares by up to 5 per point of how the moneys are divided between train cent. more than the average, so long as compensatory companies for particular classes of tickets sold. That is adjustments were made to other regulated fares. I am far different from the gross distortion, with which I have unable to give my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, just been confronted. Riverside any further information about what might happen in future years. Last July’s retail prices index Chris Mole: I listened to the hon. Gentleman’s second figure of minus 1.4 per cent. has meant that many fares, point and thought that, given our earlier comments on including most commuter fares, fell this January. We perverse incentives in the cap-and-collar arrangements, hope that those reductions will encourage more people if train operators were asked to share the advance fares, to travel by train. what incentive would there be for them to promote I was a little surprised that my hon. Friend referenced advance fares in the way they do? a piece of evidence from the Library that referred to 1987. If those figures are correct, I am certainly not Norman Baker: I will happily answer that question as going to take any responsibility for what might have well. They will still have an incentive to sell advance happened in the first 10 years of that period. Certainly, fares because they have empty seats that they will wish in the past 15 years we have seen rail fares rise less than to sell, particularly on off-peak train services, so that earnings. One can see that by looking at several popular incentive will not disappear. However, they will also see journeys: a ticket from London to Birmingham in January an incentive not to overprice walk-on fares for the 1995 cost £55, and this year it is £140, but the notional reasons the Minister has heard from all Members present. price this year if the RPI change was applied would have been £143; a ticket from London to Manchester in Chris Mole: The incentive for them not to overprice 1995 was £96, and this year it is £262, but it would have any of the non-regulated fares is that they are in competition been £269 if RPI was applied; and a journey from with other modes of travel. Entirely for that reason, London to Norwich was £55 in 1995, and that has risen they are non-regulated fares. I am sorry, but I do not to £82, but it would have been nearly £97 if RPI was think that the hon. Gentleman’s argument holds water. applied. Norman Baker rose— Ms Angela C. Smith: Is not the reality that the unregulated fares are not competitive with other modes Stephen Hammond rose— of travel, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for Chris Mole: Which city? I give way to the hon. Lewes (Norman Baker)? The cost of car travel has Member for Lewes. decreased in the past 10 years and the cost of rail travel has increased. If we are to reduce congestion on the Norman Baker: I hear the Minister’s examples, but roads and the impact of climate change, we must tackle according to an earlier written answer, the cost of the matter as a country. It is not just about competitiveness travelling by train has risen by 13 per cent. above within the industry. It is a far broader question. inflation in real terms since 1997 and the cost of travelling by car has gone down 14 per cent. Those are the Chris Mole: In her introductory remarks, my hon. Government’s figures. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside drew attention Chris Mole: That was not the point I was making, to the fact that rail passenger numbers are now at the which was that fares had not increased as much as real level they were at in the 1940s. If the fares were so terms income. uncompetitive, clearly the train operating companies would have been unable to fill the gaps between the Stephen Hammond: The implication of what the Minister peaks, which is what they have done so successfully. I has just said, with regard to the document that referred am sorry to have to disagree with my hon. Friend the back to 1987, is that fare increases were higher when the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough on that point, although railway was in nationalised hands than they have been I will argue that there is some link between regulated since the industry was privatised. Is that what the Minister and unregulated fares anyway. was trying to say? 175WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 176WH

Chris Mole: No, I was drawing attention to the We need to tackle negative perceptions of train travel Government who were in power at the time, as fares and encourage more people to travel by train. We aim to were allowed to rise by considerably more than they continue to work with Passenger Focus, the Office of have done under this Government. I want to draw the Rail Regulation and the train operators to improve the attention of the hon. Member for Lewes to the cost of a quality of information given to passengers. train journey from Lewes to Newhaven Town, which In 2008, with the encouragement of the Government, was £3.80 in 1995, but £3.90 this year, having increased the industry introduced a new simplified fares structure by 10p in 15 years, which I suspect his constituents that has three main ticket types: advance, off-peak and would regard as stonkingly good value. anytime. The National Rail website has recently had a major upgrade which emphasises this simplified structure, Ms Angela C. Smith: I will refer to my own experience and my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough a few weeks ago, when I left Sheffield to watch Sheffield may find that the website is now simpler to use. It Wednesday play Nottingham Forest. We wanted to buy includes a link to a site called Best Value Fares which two train tickets to go to the match because we did not signposts information about where customers can buy fancy the congestion in Nottingham, but the cost was train tickets, including information on independent websites nearly £40. In the car, on the basis of 40p a mile, the such as The Trainline and Raileasy. cost would be £24. Consequently, we went in the car Of course, at the end of the day, there are only two and took the hit in the time it took us to get home sources of funding for the railway: the taxpayer and the because it was so much cheaper than going by train. fare payer. We need to strike a balance between the Sheffield to Nottingham is a common commuting journey. burden placed on taxpayers and that imposed on fare payers. In the past five or six years, the amount invested Chris Mole: I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the in rail has risen and the increase has been almost website, the name of which I cannot remember, that entirely funded by taxpayers. enables travellers to make realistic comparisons between A major development that I would like to bring to the different modes of transport— attention of the House is that Oyster pay-as-you-go was rolled out across the national rail services in London on Stephen Hammond: Train Line. 2 January. That will make life easier and simpler for travellers. Oyster on rail will simplify travel across London Chris Mole: No. The website gives the true and real for passengers who need to use national rail and other costs of motorcar travel and a better indication of what forms of transport such as the underground—they will it will cost to make a journey, above and beyond the fuel now need only one type of ticket. Now all the users of cost alone. That might change my hon. Friend’s perspective the major public transport networks in the capital have on the value for money of that journey. the assurance that their pay-as-you-go fare will be at least as cheap as the cheapest cash fare, and often Norman Baker: I am grateful to the Minster for cheaper. Pay-as-you-go fares on rail have become regulated drawing attention to the Lewes to Newhaven line, because because, as pay-as-you-go is bound to become the standard I persuaded the rail company that it was in its interests way to pay for a walk-up fare, passengers will need the to fill empty space and that, were it to introduce a protection of having such fares within the regulatory reduced fare on the journeys to Lewes on which it had system. spare capacity, it would get more passengers. To its In December, the Department published the first ever surprise, by cutting the fares by a third it has got the smart and integrated ticketing strategy for public transport same amount of income coming in. That is an example in England, including up to £20 million of additional of train companies responding properly, and that is why funding for the large urban areas outside London, to those fares are still down. speed up development of smart ticketing schemes. Oyster pay-as-you-go is well suited to the kinds of journey Chris Mole: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman’s made in London but it is not right for the whole public efforts extend to the journey from Hitchin to London, transport network. The Government’s vision is based which was £18 in 1995 and is now only £19.50, or to the on the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation journey from Newport to Cardiff, which was £3.40 in specification. That is why part of the pay-as-you-go 1995 and has increased by only 70p to £4.10 this year. deal is for ITSO to be accepted in due course on the bus Cleary, it is dangerous to generalise in the way some do and underground networks in London. on different fares, except that 60 per cent. of passengers In conclusion, I believe that the right investment is in travel on a regulated fare, and this year, as I have said, place to achieve our objectives for rail. Despite the they have seen their fares fall for the first time in living global economic downturn, further significant growth memory. in passenger numbers over the next 10 years is still Passenger Focus, working with the Association of predicted. We are making the biggest investment in Train Operating Companies, has recently published research capacity for a generation. Franchise contracts contain exploring the factors that prevent people from using the strong safeguards to ensure that key standards are met, railway. The research revealed that many people believe even in a recession. There will be even tougher performance that travelling by train instead of by car would increase measures to ensure that longer franchises continue to journey time, involve more hassle and prove too expensive. deliver for passengers. However, when passengers were encouraged to “give Rail passengers can be more confident than ever that rail a go”, participants said that catching the train was they are buying a ticket for a fair price. Our policy is one more comfortable and reliable than they expected. In of continuous improvement, and we aim to achieve some cases, passengers found that the ticket was significantly value for money for passengers alongside the ongoing cheaper than they had expected. capability to invest in the rail network. 177WH Rail Fares and Franchises25 FEBRUARY 2010 Rail Fares and Franchises 178WH

Janet Anderson (in the Chair): Mrs. Ellman, as Chairman supported by comments made during this debate. It is of the Select Committee, do you wish to respond? You important that they are followed through, and that have another opportunity to speak if you wish, with includes the need for longer franchising with appropriate leave of the House. safeguards, and the need for fares that will encourage the use of rail. 4.53 pm I hope that because of this debate, the question of the Mrs. Ellman: Thank you, Mrs. Anderson. With the future of the east coast main line will be considered in leave of the House, I would like to respond briefly and an open and proper manner, and that there will be say how pleased I am that there is such strong agreement adherence to a statement made in a letter to me from on the importance of rail, investment and attention to the Secretary of State that a new franchise would not be the services that the public require, and on the need for awarded unless it demonstrated better value for money risk to be shared more equitably, which is an important than a state operator would provide. point. Question put and agreed to. The proposals in the Department’s document “The Future of Rail Franchising” reinforce many of the 4.55 pm points in the Select Committee’s report, and have been Sitting adjourned.

75WS Written Ministerial Statements25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 76WS

of the Regions: “Mobilising private and public investment Written Ministerial for recovery and long term structural change: developing Public Private Partnerships”—Information from the Statements Commission: 16586/09 COMPET 496 ECOFIN 836 IND 173 MI 447 RECH 434 TRANS 469 ENER 411 ENV 836 Thursday 25 February 2010 h. Communication from the Commission to the European Parliament, the Council, the European Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions: “A public-private partnership on the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Future Internet”—Information from the Commission: 15279/09 TELECOM 227 RECH 372 IND 144 ENER EU Competitiveness Council 359 ENV 747 SAN 291 TRANS 432 i. Communication from the Commission—European Institute of Innovation and Technology: Update on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, progress Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): The EU Competitiveness j. Information from the presidency—high-level event Council will take place in Brussels on 1 and 2 March on information and communication technologies for and this statement covers the business to be taken at the energy efficiency (ICT4EE) towards a sustainable Council. I shall represent the UK on internal market society (Brussels 23 and 24 February 2010). and industry issues on 1 March and Andy Lebrecht, the The Government’s main aims will be: UK’s Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU, will To outline UK priorities for a new EU industrial policy, represent the UK on research issues on 2 March. particularly the importance of open and competitive markets. The main industry and internal market items on the To support the Council resolution on enhancing the enforcement agenda are: Council conclusions on future EU industrial of intellectual property rights in the EU internal market. policy; discussion of the Commission’s Europe 2020 In discussions on the Europe 2020 strategy for growth and strategy for growth and jobs; a Council resolution on jobs, to emphasise the UK priorities set out in the Prime EU intellectual property rights policy; and a ministerial Minister’s EU compact for jobs and growth. lunchtime discussion with Mario Monti to discuss his To agree a decision on the participation by the Community in a preliminary report on the re-launch of the EU single joint Baltic sea research and development programme being market. undertaken by several member states and a regulation on the The main research items on the agenda are: a joint European earth observation programme (GMES) and its initial operations 2011-13. Baltic sea research and development programme; a regulation on the European earth observation programme To adopt a Council resolution on the governance of the European Research Area, including a new mandate for the (GMES) and its initial operations 2011-13; a Council Scientific and Technical Research Committee (CREST) which resolution on the governance of the European research will strengthen that body’s strategic role in the definition of area, including a new mandate for the scientific and European research policy. technical research committee (CREST); Council conclusions To adopt Council conclusions in response to the recent evaluation on the European Research Council and on researcher of the mechanisms and structures of the European Research mobility and careers issues; and discussion of the Council and Council conclusions on researcher mobility and Commission’s Europe 2020 strategy for growth and careers issues. jobs. The any other business items are set out below: CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES AOB items a. Information from the Commission on the results EU Education Council of the Copenhagen conference. Implications for European industry; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, b. Information from the presidency on the results of Schools and Families (Mr. Iain Wright): My right hon. the informal Competitiveness Council on 8 and Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 9 February (San Sebastián); Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of c. Information from the presidency and the Commission Drefelin) has made the following written ministerial on standardisation activities, within and outside the statement: EU, relating to electric vehicles; I represented the UK at the Education Council, on behalf of d. Possible information from the Commission on DCSF and BIS. internal market scoreboard no.20; Summary The Council had only two substantive agenda items—adopting e. Presentation by the Commission on functioning of the joint progress report on the “Education and Training” work the internal market: implementation of the internal programme, and a debate on the role of education in the upcoming market information system; EU2020 strategy. Also, Androulla Vassiliou, the new Commissioner f. Information from the Commission—services for Education, Culture, Multilingualism and Youth, presented directive—state of play of transposition information her priorities for forthcoming work in the area of education. from the Commission—ITER; The presidency introduced the joint report on the implementation of the “Education and Training 2010” work programme. While g. Communication from the Commission to the advancements have been made across the key competencies and European Parliament, the Council, the European agreed benchmarks, low literacy levels and drop-out rates remain Economic and Social Committee and the Committee a concern. The Council adopted the report without further comments. 77WS Written Ministerial Statements25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 78WS

Ministers discussed the role of education and training for the The Identity Commissioner provides independent Europe of 2020, based on a presidency discussion paper which oversight of the National Identity Service and has argued that education must play a central role in ensuring that already begun to look closely at the way the service is Europe is a leading, competitive, knowledge based economy. All delivered. I am pleased to lay before Parliament the first countries supported the key messages in the text, notably the need to upgrade skills, promote mobility, foster innovation at all levels annual report of the Identity Commissioner. His early of education, and increase the links between the education system impression, that the Identity and Passport Service are and employers. “doing a pretty good job”, is welcome. But the Identity A number of member states underlined the importance of Commissioner is not complacent; neither am I. I endorse focusing on current and future skills needs. I also spoke on the his priorities for scrutiny in the coming year: data-sharing; importance of an outcome-based approach to the EU’s open exploiting the benefit of identity cards; and the security method of co-ordination and noted the need for an individualised and integrity of the technology of the National Identity approach to learning. Service. I look forward to seeing the result of his work The Commissioner concluded by calling for increased, targeted in the coming months. investment in education, a more innovative higher education area, and greater flexibility between the world of education, employment Since the beginning of the year, roll out of identity and wider society. She also revealed President Barroso’s plans for cards has continued to grow. On 4 January we extended EU2020, including his proposal that the benchmark on 40 per eligibility to people across the North-West and since 8 cent. tertiary level education attainment should be one of five February, young people aged 16 to 24 living in London priority benchmarks for the upcoming EU2020 strategy. have also been able to apply for an identity card. The Council was followed by a lunch debate on social inclusion Furthermore, over 21,000 people throughout the UK and social responsibility through education and training. This have registered an interest in applying for an identity focused on the balance between promoting equity and excellence, card and I have made a commitment that anyone who and will lead to Council conclusions to be agreed by Ministers registers their interest through the Directgov website later this year. before 30 June will be able to apply for an identity card. Identity cards are a convenient and universal proof of HEALTH age as well as a credit-card sized alternative to the passport when travelling in Europe. Nutrition Action Plan Delivery Board Copies of the Identity Commissioner’s report will be available in the Vote Office. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil Hope): I am publishing the independent Nutrition Action Plan Delivery Board’s (NAPDB) end of year report on JUSTICE progress by health and social care organisations in implementing the nutrition action plan to improve the nutritional care of older people in hospital and those Parole Board Chair living in care homes. I have placed copies of the report and our response to the NAPDB’s findings in the Library and copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor Office. I am grateful to the Chair and members of the (Mr. Jack Straw): I have reappointed Sir David Latham NAPDB for their work in overseeing the first year as chairman of the Parole Board from 25 February implementation of the nutrition action plan. 2010 for a period of 12 months or until the future status In completing their task, I congratulate the board on of the Parole Board has been resolved following the their work to raise awareness of the links between consultation “The Future of the Parole Board”. nutrition and good health, and the risks to vulnerable groups within the population, such as older people living alone. The NAPDB report adds to the evidence Office for Judicial Complaints base to help us address the complex factors that determine malnutrition—for example, loss of appetite associated with age and/or illness, including absorption problems The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor or the need for assistance in eating and drinking. Many (Mr. Jack Straw): With the concurrence of the Lord of the report’s conclusions and recommendations align Chief Justice, I have published today the annual report with our policy on nutrition and programmes underway of the Office for Judicial Complaints (OJC). The OJC to improve health and social care services. provides support to the Lord Chief Justice and myself in our joint responsibility for the system of judicial complaints and discipline. HOME DEPARTMENT I welcome the publication of this report, the third produced by the OJC, which details the work undertaken Identity Commissioner by the OJC in the past year, and the complaints with which it has dealt. The Secretary of State for the Home Department The OJC’s 2006-2007 report marked the first occasion (Alan Johnson): We successfully launched the National on which comprehensive details of complaints received Identity Service in Manchester on 30 November. So far about judicial office holders had been made available to over 5,000 people have been issued with identity cards the public. I am pleased to note that the OJC continues and the number is continually growing. These people to build on this foundation and believe that this report are already starting to see the advantages of having an highlights the continued progress made by the OJC in identity card — using it to prove and protect their delivering a high quality, effective and transparent service identity and for travel to Europe. to all its complainants. 79WS Written Ministerial Statements25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 80WS

The Lord Chief Justice and I are keen to ensure that lung function, and only very rarely give rise to physical the disciplinary process for judicial office holders is symptoms. In such rare cases it is still possible for both transparent and accountable. As we announced in individuals to bring a civil claim for damages. April 2009, we have agreed that, where a judicial office There is no available medical evidence to show that holder has been removed from office following disciplinary pleural plaques become malignant or lead to mesothelioma procedures, there should now be a presumption that or other asbestos-related diseases. Current evidence indicates both the identity of that judicial office holder, and the that it is a person’s exposure to asbestos that produces reason for their removal, should be made public. While any increased risk of developing a serious asbestos-related mindful of this presumption, we will none the less disease rather than the pleural plaques themselves. continue to make decisions about disclosure on a case- The chief medical officer has invited the British Lung by-case basis. Foundation and the British Thoracic Society to develop Where a judicial office holder has been subject to a information materials for health care professionals, and lesser sanction than removal, this presumption does not an information leaflet for people diagnosed with pleural apply, however, we will continue to give consideration plaques, to ensure that consistent and accurate information to the disclosure of relevant information in cases that is provided about the condition to help allay concerns have attracted a high degree of interest from the public as far as possible. and media. On the basis of medical evidence received during the Copies of the report are available in the Libraries of course of this review, including authoritative reports both Houses, the Vote Office and the Printed Paper from the CMO and the IIAC, we are unable to conclude Office. Copies of the report are also available on the that the Law Lords’ decision should be overturned at internet at: http://www.judicialcomplaints.gov.uk/ this time or that an open-ended no-fault compensation publications/publications.htm. scheme should be set up. While the current medical evidence is clear that pleural plaques are a marker of exposure to asbestos, and that exposure to asbestos Pleural Plaques significantly increases the risk of asbestos-related disease, any increased risk of a person with pleural plaques developing an asbestos-related disease arises because of The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor that person’s exposure to asbestos rather than because (Mr. Jack Straw): This ministerial statement sets out of the plaques themselves. However, if new medical or the Government’s decision on the question of compensation other significant evidence were to emerge, the Government for pleural plaques, following their consultation on the would obviously reassess the situation. issue. A full summary of the submissions we received While we cannot, for the reasons outlined above, during that consultation will be published shortly. restore the previous position, we do acknowledge the On 17 October 2007 the Law Lords upheld a Court unique position of those individuals who had already of Appeal decision that the existence of pleural plaques— begun, but not resolved, a legal claim for compensation small localised areas of fibrosis caused by exposure to for pleural plaques at the time of the Law Lords’ ruling asbestos fibres, found within the pleura of the lung—does in October 2007. Such people would have had an not constitute actionable or compensatable damage. understandable expectation that their claim would result Prior to that, people had been able to bring claims for in compensation and many had made plans accordingly. compensation for pleural plaques since the 1980s The Government have decided to make payments of £5,000 to individuals in this limited category under an In the light of representations made by individuals extra-statutory scheme. The payment broadly reflects and organisations who strongly disagreed with the Law the level of compensation likely to have been received if Lords’ decision, and in recognition of the concerns that pleural plaques had continued to be compensatable. existed, the Government published a consultation paper Detailed arrangements relating to the operation of this on the issue which sought views on a number of options extra-statutory scheme will be announced shortly. The in response to the ruling, including whether to overturn scheme will apply to England and Wales, where the the House of Lords’ judgment and legislate so that Ministry of Justice has responsibility for civil law. An pleural plaques would again be compensatable under information telephone line will be available by the end civil law. of the week and the number will be published at: In total the Government received 224 responses to its www.justice.gov.uk/about/pleural-plaques.htm. The consultation paper. In addition, reports were received Government regard this as a unique situation and as from the chief medical officer (CMO) for England and not setting any precedent for any other circumstances Wales and the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council where litigants may be disappointed. (IIAC) reviewing the medical evidence on pleural plaques. A significant consequence of the House of Lords’ Very helpful further discussions have also taken place decision has been that people diagnosed with plaques with key medical experts in relation to the medical can no longer bring proceedings to establish liability for evidence. negligent exposure to asbestos. This was useful for some This has confirmed that the presence of pleural plaques individuals later diagnosed with mesothelioma, as prior is an indicator that a person has been exposed to establishment of liability expedited their new compensation asbestos. Given that exposure to asbestos increases the claim. This is of particular importance where conditions risk of developing a serious illness, a diagnosis of pleural like mesothelioma are concerned, as patients frequently plaques can give rise to an understandable sense of die very soon after diagnosis, leaving little time to trace anxiety and unease. However, while the exposure to records and obtain compensation. The Government asbestos has resulted in an anatomical change, in the believe it is imperative that steps are taken to improve great majority of cases pleural plaques do not in themselves the speed of payment for compensation claims for produce any significant physiological change or loss of mesothelioma and other serious asbestos-related diseases. 81WS Written Ministerial Statements25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 82WS

We will therefore establish a working group composed We have every expectation that the ELTO will deliver of claimant solicitors, trade unions, insurers, the significant results, creating a database of records that judiciary, and civil servants to examine litigation practices will help many thousands of people trace policies and and procedures for compensation claims relating to receive compensation in the future. mesothelioma, and identify options for streamlining However, even with an ELTO there will be some them in order to reduce the time taken to conclude people, especially those who suffer from long-tail diseases cases. In particular the working group will consider: like mesothelioma, who are unable to trace their insurance the operation of the practice direction for court proceedings records and thus are denied full compensation. The introduced in April 2008 to ensure that it is working effectively; Government therefore propose to establish an Employers’ possible solutions to difficulties arising from delays in obtaining Liability Insurance Bureau (ELIB) providing a medical reports because of the shortage of medical experts in compensation fund of last resort for individuals across this area; the UK who are unable to trace EL insurance records. why more claims do not settle, and whether any provisions in The consultation, published on 10 February, examines relation to pre-action behaviour would be helpful in reducing what an ELIB should cover, the impact of an ELIB on the time taken to establish liability without the need for court insurers and employers, how much should be paid by proceedings. way of compensation, limitations on claiming from the We also intend to consider changes to the substantive ELIB, and what more can be done to ensure that law to: employers who are legally obliged to obtain ELCI do resolve difficulties experienced by mesothelioma sufferers as a so. The Government will consider fully the responses to result of differences in the value of claims which are settled the consultation before determining next steps towards before or after the death of the person concerned and to clarify the introduction of an ELIB. the limitation period for bringing a claim; A mandatory ELTO and an ELIB should, in time, clarify that the limitation period for bringing a claim runs from provide a comprehensive framework for supporting people the date that the claimant becomes aware that he or she has who develop a serious asbestos-related disease. However, mesothelioma rather than from the date they became aware of in recognition of the need for action now, the Government the original exposure to asbestos. are taking a series of steps to increase the upfront In addition, in November 2009 we introduced the payments that are currently made to mesothelioma Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill into Parliament sufferers and their dependants. under a new procedure for Law Commission Bills. The The Government will increase payments made under Bill will enable claims against insolvent employers to be the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’Compensation) Act 1979 brought direct against the employer’s insurer. This will by 1.5 per cent., even though the retail prices index simplify court procedures and remove the need for showed negative growth. In addition, we will increase dissolved companies to be restored to the register of payments made due to mesothelioma under the Child companies. The Bill is expected to become law in this Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 so that Parliament. they equal payments made under the Pneumoconiosis Further to these initiatives we are also taking action etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979. to deal with the problem of people who develop a The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is also serious asbestos-related disease but are unable to obtain amending regulations to increase payments to all full compensation because they cannot trace the employer’s dependants under the 1979 Act and the 2008 Act by up insurer. to £5,000, so that their awards are closer to those paid to sufferers. All of these increases will come into effect This problem has been recognised for some time, and on 1 April 2010. since 1999 the Association of British Insurers (ABI) and the Lloyds Market Association have committed to The fact that the UK has one of the highest rates of a voluntary code of practice for tracing EL insurance death from mesothelioma in the world is a legacy of our policies. However, while the tracing service has led to industrial heritage and the part that asbestos played in some improvements, there are still many individuals it. Just as the UK was a global leader in the asbestos who are left without help—3,210 of them in 2008. industry, we must now become a global leader in research into asbestos-related disease. That situation is clearly unsatisfactory and the We have received strong representations from clinicians, Government are therefore consulting on two proposals asbestos support groups and trade unions—as well as to improve matters. from Members on all sides of this House—for the We believe that an essential first step is the creation of creation of a national centre for asbestos-related disease, a UK-wide Employers’ Liability Tracing Office (ELTO) a collaborative network of funded researchers whose to manage an electronic database of EL policies and to core purpose would be to advance medical research into operate the existing tracing service. The Association of the prevention, cure and alleviation of asbestos-related British Insurers (ABI) has agreed to drive forward this disease—primarily mesothelioma. work to help claimants and their representatives, informed There is now widespread recognition, including within by the outcome of the consultation. The new office will the medical research community, that while there has initially be launched on a voluntary basis but we would been considerable investment into cancer research generally, ultimately like it to be a requirement on all insurers to not enough has been focused on the study of cancers of publish relevant policy details on the ELTO. the lung, including mesothelioma. Yet mesothelioma is The ELTO will initially be populated with existing now the 12th most common cancer killer in men and trace data but new and renewed policies will be included the cancer of most rapidly increasing incidence in women. shortly afterwards. One of the issues explored in the We are determined to expand research in this area. consultation is the extent to which historic insurance The Secretary of State for Health has therefore asked records can be added to the database. Department of Health officials to consider and advise 83WS Written Ministerial Statements25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 84WS on how best to create a world-leading network of medical Council, the statutory rail passenger watchdog known research practitioners for asbestos related disease. The as Passenger Focus, in relation to buses, coaches and Department will involve my hon. Friend the Member trams. for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham), Dr. John The Government are announcing that the Passengers’ Edwards and others with a special interest this review. Council (Non-Railways Functions) Order 2010 comes Based on their recommendations and on advice from into force today. The order extends the council’s remit National Cancer Research Institute about research priorities, so as to give bus, coach and tram passengers in England we will set out how Government will support an increase outside London statutory representation for the first in research investment in this area. In addition, we are time. It also changes the statutory name of the Rail very pleased to announce that the insurance industry Passengers’ Council to the Passengers’ Council, although will be contributing £3 million towards research into it will continue to be known as Passenger Focus. asbestos-related disease. The Government believe that these measures will be of real and significant benefit to people diagnosed with mesothelioma and other asbestos-related diseases. WORK AND PENSIONS

SOLICITOR-GENERAL Exportability of Disability Benefits Final Policy on Prosecuting Cases of Encouraging and Assisting Suicide The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Jonathan Shaw): In October 2007 the The Solicitor-General (Vera Baird): My right hon. European Court of Justice decided that disability living Friend the Attorney-General has made the following allowance (care component), attendance allowance and written ministerial statement: carer’s allowance (“disability benefits”) should be classified as sickness benefits under Regulation EC 1408/71. In September last year, and following the House of Consequently, the benefits are exportable in certain Lords judgment in Purdy v. DPP, the Director of Public circumstances. Before this judgment disability benefits Prosecutions issued his interim policy setting out the were not exportable and as a result people who had particular public interest factors he would take account been receiving these benefits lost entitlement when they of when deciding whether to give consent to the prosecution moved abroad. of a person for the offence of aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring (assisting) another to commit or attempt The Government accepted that the disability benefits to commit suicide. At the same time he announced the referred to above are exportable to customers living in start of a consultation process on the issue. the European economic area (EEA) and Switzerland Having considered over 4,500 responses to that provided certain conditions are met. This includes a consultation process the Director has issued today his requirement that customers making a new claim have final policy, together with the summary of the responses. been in the UK for 26 out of the past 52 weeks. Copies of each have been placed in the Libraries of After careful consideration we have decided to both Houses. take a different approach on cases where people lost It should be emphasised that the policy does not entitlement to a disability benefit when they moved to change the law but responds to the House of Lords another EEA state or Switzerland before 18 October judgment in Purdy v. DPP in which the House of Lords 2007 (the date of the judgment in case C-299/05, considered that in the special case of assisted suicide the Commission v. Parliament) but no earlier than 8 March Director should issue such a policy. This policy should 2001 (the date of the judgment in case C-215/99, Jauch be read in conjunction with the code for Crown prosecutors v. Pensionsversicherungsanstalt der Arbeiter). which will continue to apply to all cases. We accept that these people will have been in the UK Additionally, following a similar public consultation for 26 out of the previous 52 weeks when they left the process, the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern UK. We will therefore no longer require that they Ireland has issued today guidelines in respect of cases should satisfy this condition at the date they seek arising in Northern Ireland. Copies of these guidelines reinstatement, providing they continued to meet the have also been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. other relevant domestic and EU law eligibility requirements throughout the period their claim was disallowed. Payment will be considered from 18 October 2007. Once full details are available, the Pension, Disability TRANSPORT and Carers Service will start to contact those people who have already applied for reinstatement to check if Bus, Coach and Tram Passenger Champion they are able to have their benefit reinstated. The Department will take action to publicise this different approach and has placed information on the The Minister of State, Department for Transport Government’s official website, Directgov; http://www. (Mr. Sadiq Khan): The Local Transport Act 2008 enables direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_185646. The disability the Secretary of State to confer additional functions, benefits pages on the site will be updated as more through secondary legislation, on the Rail Passengers’ information becomes available. 85WS Written Ministerial Statements25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 86WS

Lump Sum Mesothelioma Sufferers added stress on sufferers and families at already extremely difficult times. We made a commitment to look at reducing the difference in payment to sufferers and The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Yvette dependants as funds became available. Cooper): I am pleased to inform the House that, from We are now able to do this, and from April the April 2010, a series of increases will be made to lump majority of dependants receiving awards under the sum payments paid to individuals suffering from 1979 Act and 2008 scheme will receive a £5,000 increase. mesothelioma and certain other qualifying diseases under Those who already receive close to the amount paid to the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’Compensation) Act 1979 the sufferer will receive a proportionate amount, bringing and the 2008 mesothelioma scheme. Together, these their award up to the level of that paid to the sufferer in schemes mean that all people suffering from mesothelioma life. can receive lump sum awards from the Government These changes all take effect from April 2010. quickly after diagnosis, in addition to weekly state benefits. There is no requirement on Government to uprate Right to Control (Trailblazer Sites) payments under the schemes, but we have previously committed to increasing payments in line with those to state benefits. We have laid regulations to increase payments The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Yvette under the 1979 Act by 1.5 per cent. from 1 April this Cooper): The Right to Control aims to provide disabled year, despite the negative growth in the retail price adults with more choice and control over the support index. This will increase the value of such payouts to they need to live their lives, and how they receive that these very vulnerable people. support. It allows them to select whether they receive funding direct, support from a service provider, or a I can announce also that we are increasing the level of mixture of both. payments made through the 2008 mesothelioma scheme to bring them up to those under the 1979 Act. To understand how the Right to Control can be best implemented we plan to test this approach within a The 2008 scheme was introduced to provide up-front small number of trailblazer sites. On 8 December 2009, financial support to those people who previously were we published a prospectus inviting interested authorities not eligible for help from the Government’s other to be at the forefront of this innovative approach and compensation schemes. The scheme is funded by apply to become a trailblazer site. compensation recovery—compensation recovered from individuals who are successful in a civil damages claim We have selected eight sites that have provided us but who have already received a payment under the with quality proposals. These sites will also provide a 1979 Act or 2008 scheme. When we started the scheme good geographical balance between rural and urban in 2008 we set awards at a level consistent with the communities as well as a mixture of different types of amount of recoveries we expected to make; a lower rate authorities. than the 1979 Act. We made it clear, however, that we The trailblazing authorities are: intended to bring 2008 scheme payments to the same Barnsley Metropolitan Borough Council and Sheffield City level as those under the 1979 Act at the earliest opportunity. Council (Joint) Our expectation was that we would be able to do this in Essex County Council the scheme’s third year of operation. Greater Manchester—incorporating Manchester City Council, I am pleased to inform the House that we are able to Oldham Council, Bury Council, Stockport Metropolitan Borough honour our promise sooner than expected and will be Council and Trafford Council increasing payments to 1979 Act levels from April 2010, Leicester City Council only 18 months after the 2008 scheme started. This London Borough of Barnet means that those receiving a lump sum payment for London Borough of Newham mesothelioma will receive the same amount whether Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council, and they were exposed to asbestos at work or exposed Surrey County Council (two districts—Epsom and Ewell Borough elsewhere, such as through washing their partner’s clothes Council, and Reigate and Banstead Borough Council) or by living close to an asbestos factory. To ensure that the greater independence requested by Finally, I am announcing an increase in the level of disabled people is being met Jobcentre Plus will also be payments made to most dependants under both the working closely with each of these authorities to provide 1979 Act and the 2008 scheme. a more streamlined service, and support for disabled We recognise that the terrible effects of mesothelioma people to achieve the outcomes that suit them best. are not limited to the sufferer and that their families These eight sites will commence delivery of the Right also have to cope with the effect of the disease on their to Control by the end of 2010, and will continue for a loved one, witnessing their pain, suffering and ultimately period of two years. Their findings will help inform the their death. While we do acknowledge this by making decision as to whether the Right to Control can be payments to the family of someone who dies of rolled out further. mesothelioma and other dust-related diseases—such as Today we are also publishing our consultation document pneumoconiosis, byssinosis and silicosis—these payments on our statutory regulations that will support the delivery have been paid at a much lower rate than those to of the Right to Control by the trailblazers. This can be sufferers during life. We listened to the arguments put viewed and downloaded from the Office for Disability forward by stakeholders and hon. Members, who feel Issues website at: www.odi.gov.uk/right-to-control. Copies that this situation is unfair to dependants and can put of the document will be placed in the House Library. 9P Petitions25 FEBRUARY 2010 Petitions 10P

the future brownfield sites that are currently barracks, Petition which are to be vacated by the MOD in the town. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Official Report, Thursday 25 February 2010 6 October 2008; Vol. 480, c. 1P .] [P000270] OBSERVATIONS Observations from Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government: The Secretary of State for Communities and Local COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Government acknowledges the concerns of the petitioners regarding the eco-town proposals for Bordon. Planning and Development (Hampshire) Whitehill-Bordon was announced as one of the four The Petition of the Bordon for Option 1 Group successful sites in the first wave of eco-town announcements Declares that the Whitehill/Bordon Opportunity Town (16 July 2009) following two years of thorough assessment Enlargement and/or Bordon Eco-Town Development including public consultation and Sustainability Appraisal. expansion proposals are not appropriate to the character All of the four sites are led by, or strongly supported of this small country town. Because of the size of the by, their local authorities who can see the potential for proposed town enlargement it will have an excessive and being a national green exemplar and for economic and undesirable impact on the surrounding areas. The Petitioners housing growth to benefit their existing communities. respectfully ask that the currently proposed over- development plan for Bordon be stopped. This small The original proposals for Whitehill-Bordon included town and its surroundings contain characteristics and provision for 5,000-8,000 homes, during the assessment important heathland and other biodiversity rich habitats, process this has been amended to 5,500 homes. This is which will be lost or substantially damaged, even if they reflected in the Regional Spatial Strategy for the South are mitigated for, by these development proposals and East (The South East Plan) which states “A separate options. allocation of 5,500 has been made for Whitehill-Bordon The Petitioners therefore request that the House of as the basis for further study including the implications Commons urges the Secretary of State for Communities for the Special Protection Area”. and Local Government, to limit the expansion of the An announcement by the Housing Minister, John town at Whitehill/Bordon to no more than 2000 houses Healey, on 8 February 2010 has pledged a further and associated infrastructure: and to insist that the £11 million to Whitehill-Bordon to lay the green proposed town expansion should be situated only on foundations for the proposed eco-town.

659W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 660W Written Answers to Poultry: Animal Feed Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent representations he has received on the (a) public health and (b) moral and religious implications of undisclosed Thursday 25 February 2010 elements of pork and beef being fed to chickens. [318786]

Jim Fitzpatrick: We have received no recent ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS representations on these subjects.

Agriculture: Subsidies CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for what reason the Rural National Heritage Memorial Fund Payments Agency has decided to carry out remote sensing mapping induction in Gloucestershire; what the Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, average time taken to process information gathered by Media and Sport how much funding the National the process is; for what reason such processes have Heritage Memorial Fund received from the public delayed the award of single farm payments; and if he purse in each of the last three years. [318017] will take steps to expedite any payments so delayed. [317706] Margaret Hodge [holding answer 23 February 2010]: The grant in aid funding figures for the National Heritage Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 22 February 2010]: Memorial Fund received from my Department in each All European Union member states have a requirement of the last three full financial years are in the table. to inspect at least 5 per cent. of single payment scheme (SPS) applications each scheme year to confirm eligibility. Financial year £ million The majority of these eligibility inspections are carried 2006-07 5.0 out by RPA using remote sensing. Remote sensing uses 2007-08 10.0 very high resolution satellite images to check the land 2008-09 10.0 area in a selected zone and then to check it matches what the farmer has claimed for on the SPS application Public Libraries: Birmingham form. The geographical zones to be inspected are selected as far as possible in counties not having been previously Mr. Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, selected and this explains why part of Gloucestershire Media and Sport what the reason was for the time taken has been included. Claims in these zones are targeted for his Department to determine the application of using a risk-based approach. Birmingham city council for a certificate of immunity RPA employs a specialist contractor to undertake from listing in respect of its proposal to redevelop preliminary checks using remote sensing. When the Birmingham Central Library; and for what reason his findings reach RPA, they are checked against the SPS Department has declined to release documents relating claim and the Rural Land Register (RLR) and then if to that decision in response to an application under the necessary conveyed to the farmers concerned. In previous Freedom of Information Act 2000. [318137] years remote sensing inspection cases have generally been paid later in the regulatory payment window, Margaret Hodge: The Birmingham Central Library which closes on 30 June. This year and because RPA case involved a great deal of detailed consultation and has been more successful in paying farmers earlier non careful consideration of high volumes of correspondence payment of remote sensing cases appears more pronounced. before a decision could be reached. Owing to the complex and scientific nature of analysing All departmental responses to freedom of information thousands of hectares of land cover and topography requests are handled within the requirements of the using satellite imagery, RPA inevitably discovers instances Freedom of Information Act 2000. Where exemptions where it is difficult to interpret what the imagery is apply, a full explanation is provided to the applicant. showing, for example because of atmospheric conditions or apparent land use and management changes, which Radio require further clarification with the farmer. This year has also been more complex because of the work to Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, update all of the boundaries, position and accuracy of Media and Sport what estimate he made of the revenue the land in the RLR. which would accrue to the Exchequer in circumstances RPA must ensure that findings from these inspections in which Ofcom re-auctioned the three existing independent are taken fully into account before a claim can be paid, national radio licences. [317595] which often necessitates ongoing communications with farmers to reach an accurate outcome. Because of the Mr. Bradshaw: An assessment of the potential revenue range of checks on claims some will inevitably take was made in the impact assessment which accompanied longer than others to complete. Remote sensing processing the draft Digital Economy Bill. This is available at: is being carried out as quickly as possible and RPA is http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/ working to make these payments as soon as possible. digitalbritain_impactassessment.pdf 661W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 662W

ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE for an important Scottish industry. These Regulations will help safeguard Scotch Whisky from unfair and Electoral Register: Expenditure deceptive practices and will help protect whisky customers across the globe. Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission pursuant to the answer of 3 February 2010, Official Report, column 326W, on JUSTICE electoral register: expenditure, how much was spent on each type of initiative on electoral registration referred Industrial Disputes: Essex to in the answer in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. [318592] Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many industrial tribunal cases are outstanding in Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point. [318109] that the figures given in the previous answer were the total expenditure for registration objectives as recorded Bridget Prentice: The allocation of claims to an in its resource accounts for 2007-08 and 2008-09. The Employment Tribunal office is determined by the postcode Commission further informs me that the expenditure is of the respondent against whom the claim has been not recorded by activity in its accounts and that it is not brought. Employment Tribunal claims against respondents possible to provide the detailed information sought based in county of Essex are dealt with by the Bury St. without incurring disproportionate cost. Edmunds, East London and Watford Employment Tribunal offices. Claims against respondents based specifically in the borough of Castle Point are dealt with by the East SCOTLAND London Office. The following table shows the number of live claims Carbon Sequestration held in each of the offices covering the County of Essex at 31 January 2010: Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the Number Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on the potential effects on the energy industry in Scotland Bury St. Edmunds 3,349 of proposals on carbon capture and storage. [318695] East London 5,320 Watford 2,599 Ann McKechin: My right hon. Friend and I hold Source: regular discussions with ministerial colleagues across Tribunals Service internal management information Government about a wide range of issues. The Energy Claimants from Essex or Castle Point may have brought Bill allows for the introduction of a carbon capture and claims against respondents outside Essex and these storage incentive to support the construction of up to claims may be held in other offices depending on the four UK commercial-scale demonstration projects. address of the respondents. Statistical information is not collated centrally in relation to such cases. Trade: Scotland Prisoners: Nationality Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on Justice how many serving prisoners convicted of each international trade in Scotland. [318589] type of offence are recorded as having no nationality, broken down by length of sentence. [317170] Ann McKechin: My right hon. Friend and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on a Claire Ward: On 30 June 2009, there were 68,375 range of issues. prisoners under immediate custodial sentence in England The Scotland Office worked closely with DEFRA on and Wales, including 156 prisoners whose nationality the recent Scotch Whisky Regulations 2009. The regulations was not yet recorded. came into force on 23 November last year and provide a The following table shows these 156 prisoners by type significant step forward in providing extra protection of offence and sentence length.

Less than or equal Six months to less 12 months to less Four years to to six months than 12 months than four years indeterminate Indeterminate Total

Burglary 1 1 6 8 0 16 Drug offences 0 0 4 12 0 16 Fraud and forgery 5 5 14 1 0 25 Motoring offences 3 0 1 0 0 4 Offence not recorded 5 0 3 3 0 11 Other offences 6 3 2 1 1 13 Robbery 0 0 5 2 0 7 Sexual offences 0 0 1 7 8 16 663W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 664W

Less than or equal Six months to less 12 months to less Four years to to six months than 12 months than four years indeterminate Indeterminate Total

Theft and handling 5 3 5 0 0 13 Violence against the person 2 2 12 8 13 36 Note: These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing.

Prisoners: Voting Rights Mr. Wills: The following 57 requests to the Unlocking Service were accepted: Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether his Department plans to bring forward Asset Status legislation to change the law which prevents prisoners from voting in general elections. [318409] DEFRA News Part resolved Royal Mail PAF Unresolved Mr. Wills: The Government have recently undertaken Driving Theory Test Questions Part resolved the second stage consultation on this issue. We are UKMO rainfall radar and lightning (sferic) Part resolved currently considering the responses. The Government location data will then consider the next steps towards implementing Planning Inspectorate: Decisions on rights of Unresolved the judgment in legislation. way orders for Wales Post Office name, address and opening times Unresolved Prisons: Drugs Civil Service Yearbook Unresolved Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice National Land and Property Gazetteer and Unresolved how many and what proportion of illicit drug seizures Scottish National Gazetteer within prisons was attributed to (a) snuffer dogs, (b) School Performance Tables Resolved closed circuit television, (c) strip searches, (d) intimate Highways Agency Roadworks and Unresolved searches, (e) searches of prison cells and (f) police improvements Output from UKMO numerical weather Resolved intelligence in each of the last five years. [317397] prediction models Maria Eagle: Information is not recorded in the National Planning Appeals Unresolved format requested and would require requests for and Schools database (EduBase) Resolved detailed analysis of data returns from all prisons in UK Parliament Bills Unresolved England and Wales. To do so would incur disproportionate Efficiency and Fairness White Paper Resolved costs. London Gazette Supplements In progress The combination and extent to which these methods Electoral Boundary Data In progress have been used to seize drugs is specific to individual HM Court Service Case Law Unresolved prisons, and will have varied over time as priorities and Ordnance Survey Points of Interest data In progress tactics have changed and evolved. Primary School counts Resolved Local searching strategies are based on an individualised COI News Distribution Service Resolved assessment of risk while containing mandatory actions Ordnance Survey Administrative Boundaries In progress set out in the National Offender Management Service’s HSE Health and Safety Information Resolved (NOMS) National Security Framework. NOMS searching National Public Transport Data Repository Resolved policy is based on: common law principles of decency; Local Authorities: Registration districts and Unresolved human rights principles of necessity and proportionately; register offices and not subjecting prisoners to degrading treatment. Civil Service Yearbook Unresolved An intimate search is defined as a manual search of DEFRA Bluetongue Clinical Signs Images Part resolved buccal, anal and/or vaginal cavities. Intimate searching Sitefinder mobile phone mast locations Unresolved runs a significant risk of causing internal damage, Consultations of various departments Resolved particularly where the subject is non-compliant. Only Local Authorities Licensed premises Unresolved qualified medical practitioners or registered nurses are Local Authorities Planning Applications Unresolved able to undertake an intimate examination and will do Government Expenditure Resolved so only with consent and for health-related reasons. Companies House Company Information In progress NOMS policy on searching in prisons does not permit NHS Choices API Part resolved intimate searches to be conducted. Where prison staff Postcodes to Administrative Areas In progress suspects internal concealment, the prisoner may be National Land and Property Gazetteer Unresolved placed in confinement until the item is produced and/or National Street Gazetteer Unresolved referred to health care whenever there are concerns Information Asset Registers Resolved about health, for example, due to the concealment of Headcount for NHS PCTs Unresolved drugs. UK Patent Data In progress Public Sector: Disclosure of Information DfID Aid Information In progress URI Addressable Resources of various Part resolved Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice departments pursuant to the answer of 26 January 2010, Official Open DRM for Maps In progress Report, column 734W, on public sector: disclosure of RESTful API for NHS Choices Unresolved information, if he will list each of the 57 primary Companies API Part resolved requests that have been accepted by the Unlocked Ordnance Survey Administrative Areas In progress Service; and what the status is of each. [318341] 665W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 666W

Chris Mole: The Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Asset Status Commission acts for and on behalf of the British and OS Data on Google Maps Unresolved French Governments to supervise all matters relating to Ministry of Justice FOI Statistics In progress the operation of the Channel Tunnel, including safety. Photographs of Lords and MPs Unresolved The Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission School Inspections Database Unresolved is advised by the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority on Train Timetable Information Unresolved all matters relating to safety. Royal Mail Address Data Unresolved Departmental Buildings Council Tax Valuation List Unresolved HSE Health and Safety Publications Resolved Childcare facility waiting data In progress Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, Welsh Statutory Instruments Unresolved Department for Transport how many members of staff of (a) Directly Operated Railways and (b) East Coast Welsh Assembly Record of Proceedings Unresolved Trains occupy office space in his Department. [318677]

Youth Justice Board Chris Mole: At the moment there are three full-time and two part-time Directly Operated Railways staff John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for based at the Department for Transport’s Marsham Justice what percentage of the Youth Justice Board’s street offices. In addition, two non-executive directors expenditure was spent on purchasing custodial places also use these offices for up to two days each month. in 2008-09. [318441] From the 6 May, Directly Operated Railways staff will be based at offices in Kemble street which are not Maria Eagle: The cost of custodial places currently Department for Transport premises. includes payment for education provision. In respect of There are no East Coast staff occupying space in the certain establishments, it also includes contributions to Department for Transport offices. primary care trusts for health provision. For the financial year 2008-09 the cost to purchase Departmental Disabled Staff places and regimes for children and young people in the secure estate was £297,952,000 which equates to 63 per Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister of State, Department cent. of their annual budget. for Transport how many and what proportion of staff The data contained in this answer is taken from the in (a) his Department and (b) the executive agencies published YJB Annual Accounts. for which he is responsible are disabled; and what the average salary in (i) his Department and (ii) the executive agencies is of (A) full-time disabled staff, (B) full-time non-disabled staff, (C) part-time disabled staff and (D) TRANSPORT part-time non-disabled staff. [317898]

Channel Tunnel: Safety Chris Mole: The following table details how many and what proportion of staff in the Department for Mr. Brazier: To ask the Minister of State, Department Transport and its Executive agencies are declared disabled; for Transport what research his Department is undertaking and what the average salary is of full-time declared in respect of the safety aspects of the two recent major disabled staff, full-time non-disabled staff, part-time incidents in the Channel Tunnel. [318763] declared disabled staff and part-time non-disabled staff.

Full-time Full-time non- Part-time Part-time Disabled staff as disabled disabled disabled non-disabled percentage of average salary average salary average salary average salary Disabled Non-disabled known disability (£) (£) (£) (£)

DFT(C) 90 1,770 4.7 31,020 36,080 0 32,500 DVLA 980 4,760 17.1 17,730 17,730 17,730 17,730 DSA 150 2,490 5.6 24,320 24,320 22,790 22,450 GCDA 10 310 2.2 24,740 24,740 0 23,070 HA 160 2,780 5.3 23,070 22,630 22,550 22,550 MCA 90 790 9.7 22,330 24,370 24,980 18,620 VCA 0 140 0 0 31,210 0 19,610 VOSA 90 2,430 3.7 26,710 24,710 16,000 19,560

These data are based on returns made by Government of recent adverse weather on the delivery of car tax Departments and agencies to ONS for the reference renewal notices to motorists; how many have been date of 31 March 2009. delayed; and what the Driving and Vehicle Licensing Agency’s policy is on this matter. [318746] Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Snow and Ice Paul Clark: The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency’s Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department policy is to send out vehicle tax renewal reminders for Transport what assessment he has made of the effect around three weeks before the existing tax disc expires. 667W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 668W

This gives customers, plenty of time to get a new tax Toyota GB believed this to be a brake pedal issue disc. The Agency’s online and telephone based tax disc during brake application and the intervention of the services are available 24 hours a day to ensure that ABS on low friction road surfaces rather than a safety customers need never miss the deadline for taking action. defect. The Vehicle Standard Branch engineers conducted Renewal reminder notices are sent as a courtesy. The extensive tests and concluded that there was no safety registered keeper of a vehicle is responsible for ensuring defect. it is correctly licensed, even if a renewal reminder is not On 9 February 2010 Toyota GB informed VSB of received. Our assessment is that there is no evidence their intention to treat this matter as a recall. Keepers of that reminders were unduly delayed during recent bad 8,500 Prius vehicles in the UK will be contacted to weather and that 3 million motorists licensed their submit their vehicle to a dealer who will re-programme vehicles during January. the Anti Lock Braking System software. Toyota GB informed VSB that as of 22 February 2010, 1,258 Electric Vehicles vehicles have been fixed. Motor Vehicles: Testing Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what research (a) his Department and Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Minister of State, Department (b) its agencies have commissioned on the reliability of for Transport how many vehicles failed an MOT test for electronic systems fitted in vehicles in the last five years. incorrectly adjusted headlamps in the last five years. [318756] [318757]

Paul Clark: The Department for Transport or its Paul Clark: The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency agencies has not commissioned any specific research to (VOSA) do not record this specific information and to look at the reliability of vehicles’ electronic systems. find this information would result in disproportionate However, under harmonised European construction rules cost being incurred. electronic vehicle systems such as braking and steering are assessed for potential failures and any effect they VOSA publishes MOT failures by categories in its may have on the safe operation of the vehicle. Effectiveness Report. Incorrectly adjusted headlamps would be recorded within the Lighting and Signalling category along with other related failures. Figures for Government Car and Despatch Agency: Internet the last three years are listed in the table. Table A 3.2 Failures of vehicles which included a lighting and signalling defect as Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister of State, Department a percentage of vehicles tested at MOT stations for Transport for what reasons the Government Car 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07 and Despatch Agency has no contact details on its website. [318343] Total tests 29,691,015 28,742,618 27,805,830

Paul Clark: The Government Car and Despatch Agency Class 1 and 2 motorcycles 8.9 8.9 8.7 (GCDA) publishes its contact details on its website: percentage of tests Class 3 and 4: cars and light vans up 18.9 18.8 18.2 www.dft.gov.uk/gcda to 3,000kg (percentage) Within the ‘Contact Us’ section, telephone numbers Class 5: Private passenger vehicles 19.7 19.5 19.0 for GCDA departments are shown. with more than 12 seats (percentage) Class 7: Goods vehicles 43.1 43.6 42.3 E-mail addresses and contact telephone numbers are between3,000 and 3,500 kg gross shown at the end of each of the GCDA product/service vehicle weight (percentage) pages. Notes: 1. A failed vehicle for a lighting and signalling defect often has more than one failure item. Motor Vehicles: Safety 2. The percentage shows the percentage of the defect category against the total number of tests carried out. 3. Figures before 2006-07 are recorded in a different format. Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport (1) on what date the Vehicle and Operator Official Cars Services Agency was informed by Toyota of the possibility of the need to recall certain models of the Prius motor Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister of State, Department car; and if he will make a statement; [318755] for Transport pursuant to the answer of 21 January 2010, (2) what discussions he has had with representatives Official Report, column 420W, on official cars, how of the Toyota Motor Company on reported faults with many such cars were available for (a) Ministers and (b) the Prius model; and if he will make a statement. senior civil servants in 1997-98; and what the annual cost was of providing the service in that year. [318194] [318759] Paul Clark: The Government Car and Despatch Agency Paul Clark: On 1 February 2010, the Vehicle Safety holds no historical information for that period and this Branch (VSB) of the Vehicle and Operator Services could be obtained only at a disproportionate cost. Agency (VOSA) held a meeting with Toyota GB to discuss the Toyota accelerator pedal matter. Railways: Fines The Vehicle Standard Branch raised at the same time the issue concerning the braking system fitted to the Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, Toyota Prius. Toyota GB advised that its parent company Department for Transport to what use fines received was conducting an investigation and agreed to keep from train operating companies as a result of franchise VSB informed. breaches are put. [318676] 669W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 670W

Chris Mole: No fines have been imposed on train Olympic Games: Canada operating companies since the Department for Transport assumed responsibility for rail franchising, as the Mr. Hunt: To ask the Minister for the Olympics how Government have instead sought appropriate passenger many staff of the Government Olympic Executive benefits from the train operator concerned, at a financial attended the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver; and cost to the operator. whether she attended. [318779]

Tessa Jowell: Four members of the Government Olympic Executive have attended the 2010 Winter Olympics. It is PRIME MINISTER planned that a further four officials will attend the Paralympics. They are participating in the observer 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver programmes which run throughout the Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Prime Minister how many staff I attended the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Games from of his Office attended the 2010 Winter Olympics in 10 to 18 February, with my private secretary, a press Vancouver. [318778] officer and a special adviser. This provided an invaluable opportunity to study at first-hand Vancouver’s experience The Prime Minister: None. in staging an Olympic Games and to learn lessons for London 2012. Official Residences Overseas Aid: Expenditure Mr. Maude: To ask the Prime Minister pursuant to the answer of 28 January 2010, Official Report, column Mr. Hunt: To ask the Minister for the Olympics how 1070W, on official residences, on what date the much was spent on humanitarian assistance programmes squatters who occupied the property at the beginning in each of the last five years. [318624] of December 2009 left the ministerial residence of South Eaton Place; whether the police or courts were Tessa Jowell: The role of my Humanitarian Assistance used to secure occupation; and what steps have been Unit is to: taken to secure the property in future. [318301] ensure that the needs of British people affected by major emergencies are acted on within Government in building Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. preparedness for and responding to major emergencies; and Following a court order the persons illegally occupying act as an advocate for victims and their families within Government South Eaton Place vacated it on 13 December 2009. and beyond. The property is for sale. Expenditure on humanitarian assistance programmes in each of the last five years is as follows:

£ OLYMPICS 2005-06 549,000 Departmental Disabled Staff 2006-07 366,500 2007-08 312,500 2008-09 277,500 Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister for the Olympics 2009-10 (to date) 217,000 how many and what proportion of staff in the Government Olympic Executive are disabled; and what the average In addition, the Government provided: salary in the Government Olympic Executive is of (a) £1 million to the British Red Cross in 2006-07 to set up the full-time disabled staff, (b) full-time non-disabled staff, Relief Fund for Victims of Terrorism; and (c) part-time disabled staff and (d) part-time non-disabled £1 million to the Royal Parks for the 7 July memorial in Hyde staff. [317903] Park. Tessa Jowell: The Government Olympic Executive (GOE) reports to me through the permanent secretary at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS). ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE GOE will be included within the answer provided by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at DCMS. Warm Front Scheme: Eaga

Departmental Official Hospitality 18. Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will review the Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics how effectiveness of the role of Eaga in the allocation of much her Office has spent on entertainment in each of grants under the Warm Front scheme. [318559] the last five years. [318472] Mr. Kidney: All applications to Warm Front will be Tessa Jowell: My office has been in existence since considered by the scheme manager, Eaga, in accordance June 2007. In the reporting year 2007-08 £1,215 was with the regulations which govern the scheme. The spent on entertainment, in the reporting year 2008-09 assistance provided to qualifying households will depend £717.05 was spent. Figures for 2009-10 will not be on their circumstances and the range of measures available. available until the end of the reporting year. Work is allocated to those installers appointed under 671W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 672W the scheme to work in the local area. The Department In response to that consultation, our Strategy for has an independent quality assurance contract in place Household Energy Management will be published very to verify the work of the scheme manager. shortly. Gas Storage Coal: Electricity

20. Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for for Energy and Climate Change how much additional Energy and Climate Change if he will give additional gas storage capacity he expects to be available in the support to promote the use of co-firing of biomass in UK by 2012; and if he will make a statement. [318561] coal-powered electricity generation. [318563]

22. Mr. Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Kidney: Co-firing, along with other eligible renewable Energy and Climate Change how much additional gas electricity generation technologies is supported under storage capacity he expects to become available in the the renewables obligation. UK by 2012. [318564] In October 2010 we will start the first scheduled banding review for all eligible renewables technologies Mr. Kidney: I refer the hon. Member to the reply my supported under the renewables obligation. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and This will include reviewing at the level of support for Climate Change gave to the hon. Member for Bracknell co-firing of biomass and energy crops in fossil-fuelled (Mr. Mackay) earlier today. generation. Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease Environmental Technologies

21. Mr. Clapham: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Energy and Climate Change how many miners’ claims and Climate Change what recent steps he has taken to relating to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease increase the use of new environmental technologies; remain to be settled; and when he expects the and if he will make a statement. [318558] compensation scheme to end. [318562] Joan Ruddock: The Department of Energy and Climate Mr. Kidney: The Department has settled over 590,000 Change has a range of policies in place that will increase Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease claims to date. the use of new environmental technologies by driving A further 1,762 claims remain to be settled of which less carbon emission reduction. These policies include the than 270 have yet to receive an offer. The Department EU Emissions Trading Scheme, our carbon budgets, aims to settle these claims by end of December 2010, and the carbon reduction commitment. although some claims involve protected parties and Recent steps to increase the use of new environmental may take longer to resolve. technologies include Feed In Tariffs; the Renewable Carbon Capture and Storage Heat Incentive and the Low Carbon Communities Challenge. Mr. Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Natural Gas: Industrial Disputes and Climate Change what steps he plans to take to secure progress in the post-competitive phase of the Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy carbon capture and storage programme. [318542] and Climate Change (1) what steps his Department is taking to ensure the security of the UK’s gas supply in Edward Miliband: I expect to announce shortly which the event of proposed industrial action at Milford consortia will be selected following detailed scrutiny to Haven; [318463] undertake the tens of millions of pounds worth of work for the front end engineering and design for the first (2) on what dates he discussed Unite’s proposed CCS demonstration project, the necessary work prior industrial action at Milford Haven with officials from to construction. Later this year, we will also open the Unite; [318464] competition for the three other projects, to be funded (3) what representations he has received on the likely under the CCS Incentive. The latter is, of course, dependent effect on the security of gas supply of industrial action on the successful passage of the Energy Bill. by Unite at Milford Haven; [318465] (4) what representations he has received on the likely Energy Management Strategy effect of industrial action by Unite at Milford Haven on imports of crude oil and refined products. [318466] Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he expects to publish Mr. Kidney: The Department of Energy and Climate his Department’s household energy management strategy. Change has been closely following events at Milford [318552] Haven Port Authority over the past few weeks. My officials have been in regular contact with the operators Joan Ruddock: The Government consulted on their of LNG import facilities and refineries in the area to plans for improving the energy efficiency of existing understand the implications of possible industrial action. homes from February to May last year. We had over We have also been in contact with national grid to 300 responses to that consultation, from a wide variety discuss the potential implications for UK’s gas supply. of organizations and individuals, expressing a broad Officials have maintained close communication with range of views. port authority management to follow developments 673W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 674W and, between 1 and 23 February, Ministers and officials DEFENCE have spoken on a number of occasions with senior representatives from Unite to seek their assessment of Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations the dispute. DECC recognises the strategic importance of the Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for port to the energy industry and has urged the parties Defence how many turbines other than those delivered concerned to do everything possible to reach a resolution in September 2008 are operational at Kajaki dam; in to the dispute whilst recognising that the issues under what year such turbines were installed; and what the negotiation are a matter for the management and employees volume of electricity output has been of such turbines of the port authority. We welcome the announcement in the last five years for which figures are available. that the industrial action at Milford Haven port scheduled [311001] to start on 23 February has been averted and are pleased that consultation is under way on proposals Chris Bryant: I have been asked to reply. which we hope will lead to an agreement. There are two turbines operational at Kajaki dam, My officials and I will continue to monitor developments which were installed between 1972 and 1975. In 1975, closely and I urge the parties concerned to seek a swift the dam began to produce electricity for the Helmand and sustainable agreement to the dispute. Valley and Kandahar. It produces 33 mega watts of power.

NORTHERN IRELAND Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Pay Defence for what reasons the turbine delivered to Kajaki dam by UK forces in September 2008 is not Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for functioning; whether that turbine has functioned since Northern Ireland how much funding his Department its delivery; when he expects that turbine to function; has allocated for (a) year end and (b) in year bonuses and if he will make a statement. [311003] for its staff in 2009-10. [307023] Chris Bryant: I have been asked to reply. Paul Goggins: The Northern Ireland Office (NIO) operates three non-consolidated performance payment The turbine delivered in September 2008 requires schemes: an in-year, special performance scheme (to other materials, namely mechanical and construction reward particularly meritorious contributions during equipment, to make it functional. These have not yet the year); an end-of-year performance payment scheme been moved to the Kajaki area. While the dam does not for staff below the Senior Civil Service (SCS) (to reward operate to its full capacity, currently it does provide performance and delivery throughout the previous year); electricity to the population of Helmand. Two generators and a performance payment scheme for SCS staff, are in place and being used, along with diesel-powered, which is an integral part of the pay arrangements in local generation to increase supply. While the security operation in all Whitehall Departments. situation in the area makes access and delivery to Kajaki challenging, supplies, including oil, are being delivered. The annual costs of the end-of-year performance USAID, the US federal government agency responsible payment scheme for staff below Senior Civil Service is for the US effort in the field of development and £348,300. This equates to 0.54 per cent. of the pay remit reconstruction, is leading the work on the refurbishment available to those staff eligible to participate in the of the power station. They continue to plan to make the scheme. facility fully operational. In respect of performance payments for Senior Civil Service for 2009-10, the NIO will, as usual, await the advice of the Senior Salaries Review Body and Cabinet Armed Forces: Housing Office Guidance. The funding allocated to the in-year special performance Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme equates to 0.4 per cent. of the pay remit available Defence what proportion of each grade of his Department’s to those staff eligible to participate in the scheme. The single living accommodation housing stock in Scotland funding for the 2009-10 year was set at £258,000. was empty in each of the last five years. [317784] Departmental Travel Mr. Kevan Jones: We record details of void bed-spaces which are defined as those which are available but not Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for currently required for occupation by single Service Northern Ireland if he will publish the travel guidance personnel. Separate figures for Scotland are not available. issued to staff of each of his Department’s agencies and non-departmental public bodies. [315033] Armed Forces: Manpower Paul Goggins: Most of the Department’s agencies and non-departmental public bodies follow travel policy/ Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence guidance issued by the Northern Ireland Office (NIO). what the current shortfall is of (a) reservist and (b) The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission regular (i) medical, (ii) nursing and (ii) paramedic staff. have their own guidance document and the Northern [309014] Ireland Prison Service follow the guidance contained in the Northern Ireland Civil Service Handbook. Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 6 January 2010]: I will place in the Library of the House copies of The latest available data are provided in the following travel guidance documents. tables: 675W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 676W

Defence Medical Service Regulars—Manning as at 1 October 2009 Other than certain medical grades, all MOD civilian Trained Shortfall staff are required to participate in an annual performance Requirement strength (percentage) review process. If performance is identified as unsatisfactory Medical officers 818 476 42 —at any point in the reporting year—individuals may Nurses 1,900 1,500 21 be subject to the restoring efficiency process, which Medical support 4,083 3,882 5 involves warning the individual, encouraging improvement, services and allowing a reasonable opportunity to improve. If a Dental officers and 777 764 2 satisfactory performance is not achieved, the individual allied dental healthcare may be dismissed or downgraded. The number of staff professionals dismissed for unsatisfactory performance in each financial Total 7,578 6,622 13 year was as follows: Notes: 1. Requirement excludes the manning and training margin. Total 2. Trained strength only includes personnel that are qualified in their speciality. 2004-05 12 3. ‘Medical Support Services’ include the paramedic cadre. 2005-06 12 4. Dental officers and allied dental healthcare professionals includes 2006-07 12 dental practitioners, dental support officers, dental surgery assistants and dental technicians. 2007-08 4 Defence Medical Service Reserves—Manning as at 1 October 2009 2008-09 2 Trained Shortfall Requirement strength (percentage) These figures include staff in MOD agencies but exclude Trading Funds and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Medical officers 1,001 408 59 Nurses 863 553 36 Ex-servicemen: Military Decorations Medical support services 2,316 1,535 34 Dental officers and allied 58 31 47 dental healthcare professionals Mr. Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Total 4,238 2,527 40 how many veterans’ badges have been issued to former Notes: members of the armed forces since the badges were 1. Dental officers and allied dental healthcare professionals includes introduced. [318256] dental practitioners, dental support officers, dental surgery assistants and dental technicians. Mr. Kevan Jones: As at 19 February 2010, 770,324 2. ‘Medical Support Services’ include the paramedic cadre. Veterans Lapel Badges have been issued to former members of the armed forces and their entitled dependants Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for since its introduction on 10 April 2004. Defence (1) how many people of each occupation are employed as personal staff for the Director General Land Warfare; [316934] Hercules Aircraft (2) how much his Department has spent on personal staff for the Director General Land Warfare in the last Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 12 months. [316935] Defence how many search and rescue operations took place beyond the standard operational range of the Bill Rammell: Director General Land Warfare has Hercules aircraft in the last five years. [318838] access to a pool of staff as part of a garrison-wide contract. He shares the use of one gardener and one Bill Rammell: None. The UK has responsibility for domestic assistant to maintain his service family search and rescue operations within a specified area, accommodation with the whole garrison of about 2,000 which includes the north Atlantic, extending out to people. As such their staff duties are not solely dedicated 30 degrees west. Hercules aircraft are capable of covering to Director General Land Warfare. This is within MOD the entirety of the UK search and rescue area of guidelines on proportionate staffing levels for the post. responsibility. The contract value of the support provided to Director General Land Warfare was valued at approximately Incapacity Benefit: Chelmsford £1,200 per month from February 2009 to January 2010. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Manpower Defence how much his Department spent on substitute accommodation in Scotland for (a) service family accommodation and (b) single living accommodation Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State in each of the last five years. [316513] for Defence how many performance reviews were undertaken in respect of staff of (a) his Department Mr. Kevan Jones: It will take more time to collate and and (b) its agencies in each of the last five years; in how verify the information requested. I will write to the hon. many cases performance was rated as unsatisfactory or Member. below; how many staff left as a direct result of such a Substantive answer from Kevan Jones to Angus Robertson: rating; and what percentage of full-time equivalent staff this represented. [313834] In my answer of 9 February (Official Report, column 811W) I undertook to write to you with details of how much the Department has spent on substitute accommodation in Scotland for Service Mr. Bob Ainsworth: This information is not held in Family Accommodation and Single Living Accommodation in the format requested. each of the last five years. 677W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 678W

Substitute Service Family Accommodation (SSFA) and Substitute Military Aircraft Service Single Accommodation (SSSA) are only ever used as a last resort in cases where service accommodation either does not exist or is not available. SSSA properties may accommodate more Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for than one entitled Service person of the same gender and of an Defence what the maximum operational range is of the equivalent rank. As part of the value for money programme that I (a) MR2 and (b) Hercules search and rescue aircraft chair, the entitlements of all Ministry of Defence employees are without air-to-air refuelling. [318837] being considered. The amount spent on SSFA and SSSA in Scotland in each of Bill Rammell: The Nimrod MR2 and Hercules C130K the last five years is shown in the following table: aircraft perform other tasks aside from long-range search and rescue. We therefore cannot comment on actual Total capability levels as this is classified information. Number Cost (£ Number Cost (£ expenditure of SSFA million) of SSSA million) (£ million) The UK has responsibility for search and rescue operations within a specified area, which includes the 2005 18 0.2 304 2.1 2.3 North Atlantic out to 30 degrees West and both the 2006 23 0.2 487 2.5 2.7 Nimrod MR2 and Hercules C130K aircraft are capable 2007 26 0.2 585 3.2 3.4 of covering the entirety of the UK’s search and rescue 2008 34 0.2 682 3.9 4.1 area of responsibility. The maximum time on task is 2009 36 0.3 638 3.8 4.1 dependent on a wide range of factors including load, configuration and weather, and this can be extended Iraq and Afghanistan through use of diversions as far afield as Iceland in the north or indeed the Azores in the south. Additionally, Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Hercules C130K has the capacity to air-to-air refuel Defence how many (a) Army, (b) RoyalNavyand(c) which could significantly extend its time on task if it Royal Air Force (i) fixed wing aircraft and (ii) was required. helicopters are deployed in (A) Iraq, (B) Germany, (C) Afghanistan, (D) Cyprus, (E) Diego Garcia, (F) the Nimrod Aircraft Falkland Islands and the South Atlantic, (G) Gibraltar, (H) Kuwait, (I) Ascension Island, (J) the United Arab Emirates, (K) Oman, (L) Bahrain and (M) at sea. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for [316489] Defence how many search and rescue missions were flown from RAF Kinloss using MR2 aircraft in each of Bill Rammell: There are no manned UK military the last five years; and what the (a) distance and (b) aircraft deployed in Iraq, Cyprus, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar, duration was of each such mission. [318839] Kuwait, the UAE or Ascension Island. Bill Rammell: The number of search and rescue missions There are 12 Army helicopters permanently based in flown by MR2 aircraft from RAF Kinloss in each of Germany, though some of these may be deployed on the last five years is provided in the following table: operations or in the UK for maintenance at any given time. Number There are 12 RAF manned fixed-wing aircraft in Afghanistan. All three services have helicopters in 2005 28 Afghanistan and there are three Royal Navy helicopters 2006 28 deployed to Oman. I am withholding further information 2007 17 on numbers in operational theatres because it would, or 2008 25 would be likely to, prejudice the efficiency, security and 2009 11 capability of the armed forces. The available information relating to distance and The liabilities (or cost) in 2009-10 do not arise until duration of each mission in each of the last five years is the necessary legislative amendments to the scheme are provided in the following tables. The distance provided actually in place. The accounts in the financial year in represents the nautical miles from RAF Kinloss to the which the legislation is made will reflect the change in search and rescue (SAR) task and does not represent liabilities arising from the review. the total distance flown. The duration of each mission relates only to the actual search and rescue mission and Iraq Committee of Inquiry does not, in every case, represent total flying time. 2005 Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Distance NM Duration (hours/minutes) Defence if he will (a) make available to the Iraq Inquiry and (b) place in the Library a copy of all legal 585 04.15 advice given by his Department to military personnel 281 03.15 prior to the beginning of the Iraq war; and if he will 131 02.00 make a statement. [318459] n/a 04.45 576 03.40 Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Ministry of Defence is providing 589 04.30 the inquiry with all the documentation that the inquiry 443 04.15 has requested including legal advice. The Department 592 05.15 will consider any requests to place documents containing 313 04.45 legal advice relating to the Iraq conflict in the Library 742 07.10 of the House on a case-by-case basis. 679W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 680W

2005 2007 Distance NM Duration (hours/minutes) Distance NM Duration (hours/minutes)

307 03.35 253 2:05 303 03.40 10 2:30 370 03.40 233 3:15 480 07.25 466 6:00 194 01.25 489 5:05 212 07.15 392 2:30 174 01.45 386 4:35 607 07.25 678 4:45 584 04.35 2008 1,143 01.45 Distance NM Duration (hours/minutes) 463 06.35 496 03.55 338 03.50 377 05.35 50 00.40 586 05.10 594 04.30 152 01.10 682 11.30 451 06.50 490 03.50 258 02.55 550 03.35 575 04.55 518 05.40 441 n/a 2006 501 02.30 Distance NM Duration (hours/minutes) n/a 05.25 354 05.20 157 5:25 n/a 04.55 899 n/a 641 00.15 537 4:10 835 05.15 448 4:25 635 05.10 257 4:00 298 n/a 598 n/a 959 05.30 267 2:45 238 02.30 506 4:10 76 00.15 334 4:20 596 03.00 334 4:50 560 04.40 599 4:20 564 04.25 333 4:00 851 06.30 535 4:35 488 03.50 605 7:30 944 14.25 80 5:15 357 5:00 2009 162 5:05 Distance NM Duration (hours/minutes) 446 4:20 170 04.05 738 5:35 368 03.20 384 3:25 69 04.20 601 3:10 559 04.00 437 5:50 443 00.05 225 1:40 1,060 07.00 540 3:15 958 05.30 207 29:25 265 02.50 275 4:37 473 03.40 615 4:10 680 05.35 117 1:30 560 03.30 2007 Distance NM Duration (hours/minutes) Nuclear Submarines 374 3:00 554 4:45 204 1:05 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 402 4:00 Defence (1) what plans he has for the replacement of MR2s in the protection of the UK’s nuclear submarine 542 5:00 fleet; [318833] 201 13:30 312 4:10 (2) what the end of service date is of the MR2 379 4:30 aircraft; what plans there are for its replacement; when n/a 2:30 he expects the MRA4 aircraft to enter service; and if he will make a statement; [318836] 681W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 682W

(3) if he plans to lease search and rescue aircraft Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International following the withdrawal from service of the MR2 Development’s (DFID’s) assessment team provide daily aircraft. [318840] field reports on the developing humanitarian situation in Haiti, to inform departmental decisions on funding Mr. Kevan Jones: The Nimrod MR2 will be taken out and strategic choices. These situation reports are published of service on 31 March 2010, and will be replaced by on the DFID website for members of the public to view. the substantially more capable Nimrod MRA4. The Overseas Aid: Asylum MRA4 production programme remains unchanged, but the aircraft will be introduced into service at a slower Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for rate as part of a package of key adjustments to the International Development how much his Department Defence programme announced on 15 December last has allocated to support work with refugees from (a) year. During the period of transition we intend to use Iraq, (b) Afghanistan, (c) Sudan, (d) Somalia and other assets to fulfil its various roles. We do not currently (e) Rwanda in 2009-10. [318006] have any plans to lease aircraft to fulfil the long range search and rescue tasks undertaken by the MR2. Mr. Michael Foster: To date, in 2009-10 the Department I cannot comment on the levels of protection assigned for International Development (DFID) has provided a to the Deterrent for reasons of national security. core contribution of £19 million to the UN Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) to work with refugees worldwide. DFID has also provided earmarked funding to UNHCR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT to support refugees in specific countries. In 2009-10 this has included £1.5 million for humanitarian assistance in Civil Society Challenge Fund Iraq and £2 million for Somali refugees in Kenya. Rwanda: HIV Infection Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if he will place in the Mr. Newmark: To ask the Secretary of State for Library copies of the proposals received by his International Development if he will take steps to (a) Department for funding each project which is to ensure local HIV positive survivors of the Rwandan receive funding from the Civil Society Challenge Fund genocide continue to receive targeted support and (b) 2010. [317592] support local organisations in Rwanda in providing services to HIV positive genocide survivors after Mr. Douglas Alexander: Details for the projects to March 2010. [317224] receive funding from the Civil Society Challenge Fund in 2010 are available on the Department for International Mr. Thomas: Since 2006 the Department for International Development’s (DFID’s) website at: Development (DFID) has funded a £4.25 million Care and Treatment of Survivors Programme (CTP) targeting www.dfid.gov.uk victims of genocide who are HIV positive. Signing of grant agreements for 2010 is still subject to From March 2010 this programme will be managed negotiation of financial and other arrangements and by the Government of Rwanda. DFID worked closely the usual DFID approval procedures. with the Rwandan Ministry of Health (MoH) and genocide survivors’ local organisations to ensure that Haiti: Earthquakes HIV positive survivors will continue to receive targeted support from the Global Fund through government Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for International systems. Development what discussions (a) he and (b) officials DFID will continue to support Rwanda’s health and of his Department have had with (i) politicians and (ii) social services system, including its specialised services officials in Haiti on the role the UK can play in the to genocide survivors through Sectoral Budget Support reconstruction of that country. [318157] and General Budget Support. DFID’s monitoring and policy dialogue with the government will provide a Mr. Michael Foster: Reconstruction on such a vast means of ensuring services to HIV positive genocide scale is best led multilaterally. The Government of Haiti survivors continue to be provided after March 2010. have asked the World Bank and United Nations to be the joint international leads on this, and we expect the other international financial institutions, the European TREASURY Commission and Haiti’s major bilateral donors also to have a strong role. The United Kingdom is and will Banks: Loans remain a major contributor to multilateral funding and in that role fully expects to attend the main reconstruction Willie Rennie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer conference in New York at the end of March. (1) what recent assessment he has made of the performance of banks in meeting his Department’s mortgage lending Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for International requirements; [318816] Development what assessment he has made of the (2) what percentage of the lending targets for effectiveness of the (a) aid and (b) other assistance financial institutions set by his Department has been provided by his Department to the people of Haiti since reserved for support for first-time buyers in the housing the earthquake in that country. [318158] market. [318818] 683W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 684W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government agreed Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I refer the hon. Gentleman to lending commitments with Lloyds Banking Group and the letter sent to him dated 11 January 2010 from Lord the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) in February 2009. Myners, a copy of which will be placed in Libraries of Under these legally-binding agreements, Lloyds committed the House of Commons and House of Lords. to lend an additional £3 billion and RBS an additional £9 billion to households on commercial terms (and Government Departments: Procurement subject to market demand) over the 12 months from March 2009. Mr. Maude: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Government will report annually to Parliament (1) what proportion of central Government procurement on the delivery of these commitments. is not co-ordinated through the Office of Government The lending commitments include qualitative Commerce; [318243] commitments on first-time buyers. For example, they (2) pursuant to the answer of 29 January 2010, Official require both these banks to ensure that they market Report, column 1145W, on Government departments: products to first-time buyers including mortgage products procurement, what proportion of Government expenditure of up 90 per cent. loan to value. on goods and services was undertaken via collaborate procurement programmes in 2009; and if he will list Willie Rennie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer each professional buying organisation and the amount what steps his Department is taking to support first-time of Government expenditure in each such case. [318313] buyers in the housing market. [318817] Ian Pearson: Management information from December Sarah McCarthy-Fry: In England, the Government’s shows that 47 per cent. of categorised central Government key objective for housing is to ensure everyone has expenditure was undertaken through collaborative access to a decent home at a price they can afford. The procurement in 2009-10. Government remain committed to the delivery of affordable A list of professional buying organisations can be housing, including through both shared equity and found in Annex C of the Operational Efficiency Programme shared ownership schemes. Since 1997 the Government report Collaborative Procurement which was published have helped more than 110,000 households in England in December 2009. Details of Government expenditure into low-cost homeownership through shared ownership through professional buying organisations is not held and shared equity. centrally. The Pre-Budget Report 2009 announced that the Government would increase the Development of HomeBuy Members: Correspondence Direct Homes in 2010-11, delivering an investment of over £150 million in HomeBuy Direct that year and an Mr. Baron: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer increase of 3,000 homes above the original target of when the Financial Secretary to the Treasury plans to 10,000 for England. Additionally, the Government respond to the letter from the hon. Member for Billericay announced that housing for first-time buyers would be of 11 January 2010 on his constituent, Mr. Toomey. priorities within the Kickstart Housing Delivery Programme. Further information on Government measures [318678] to help homebuyers in England is available at Mr. Timms: I have replied to the hon. Member. www.realhelpnow.gov.uk Non-Domestic Rates Decisions concerning whether to engage in lending to support shared equity or shared ownership remain commercial decisions for firms. Where there is public Lorely Burt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer sector investment in financial institutions these stakes how many hereditaments there are with a rateable value will be managed on an arm’s length and independent of (a) under £5,000, (b) between £5,000 and £14,999, basis by UK Financial Investments Ltd. (c) between £15,000 and £24,999, (d) between £25,000 and £49,999, (e) between £50,000 and £99,999, (f) Housing policy is devolved in Scotland and the Devolved between £100,000 and £499,999 and (g) at least £500,000; Administration in Scotland has its own policies to assist and what the total rateable value is of hereditaments in first-time buyers; further information is available at each category. [317018]

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Built-Environment/ Ian Pearson [holding answer 22 February 2010]: The Housing/BuyingSelling/lift following data are as at the 2 November 2009 and extracted from the information published by the Valuation Dunfermline Building Society Office Agency on the 18 December 2009. These data are consistent with the statistical release Willie Rennie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer titled: ‘Non- domestic rateable values: 2010 Local Ratings what recent estimate he has made of the sums paid from Lists-England and Wales’, published on 18 December the public purse to (a) consultants, (b) accountants, 2009. A copy of this statistical release is available at the (c) legal advisers and (d) other financial advisers for following link: work connected with management of the assets of http://www.voa.gov.uk/publications/statistical_releases/ Dunfermline Building Society. [318671] VOA_Statistics_Release_Final.pdf 685W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 686W

Draft 2010 Rating List as at 2 November 2009 Hereditaments (thousand): RV (£ million) England Wales Total Number Number Number hereditaments Total rateable hereditaments Total rateable hereditaments Total rateable (thousand) value (£ million) (thousand) value (£ million) (thousand) value (£ million)

Below 5,000 601 1,497 48 115 649 1,612 Between 5,000 and 14,999 568 5,018 32 274 600 5,292 Between 15,000 and 24,999 189 3,629 9 174 198 3,803 Between 25,000 and 49,999 167 5,798 7 254 174 6,052 Between 50,000 and 99,999 96 6,661 4 279 100 6,940 Between 100,000 and 499,999 82 16,411 3 655 86 17,066 500,000 or over 13 17,360 0 607 14 17,966 Total 1,717 56,373 104 2,358 1,821 58,732

Public Expenditure Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many (a) free nursery and Adam Afriyie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (b) pre-school places were available for children aged pursuant to the answer of 9 February 2010, Official (i) three and (ii) four years old in (A) Essex and (B) Report, columns 932-3W, on the strategic investment Castle Point in each year since 1997. [318091] fund, whether the £100 million of new funding was raised through borrowing; and from which budgets the Dawn Primarolo: Table 1 shows the number of part-time £100 million from departmental re-prioritisation was equivalent places filled by three and four-year-olds in drawn. [318429] Essex local authority from 1997 to 2009. Table 2 shows the number of part-time equivalent places filled by Mr. Timms: The £100 million from the Exchequer for three and four-year-olds in Castle Point constituency the Strategic Investment Fund is funded through an from 2004 to 2009. additional spending allocation in 2010-11. The The Department publishes information on the part-time Government’s forecast for borrowing in 2010-11 derives equivalent number of free early education places filled from forecasts of net expenditure less net receipts in by three and four-year-olds in maintained, private, voluntary that year. The £100 million not funded by the Exchequer and independent providers. Information on the number will be funded equally from the Department for Business of pre-school places is not separately available. Part-time Innovation and Skills and the Department for Transport’s equivalent places are derived by counting children taking 2010-11 Budgets. up 12 and a half hours per week as one place, 10 hours per week as 0.8 places, seven and a half hours per week Welfare Tax Credits: Overpayments as 0.6 places, five hours per week as 0.4 places and two and a half hours per week as 0.2 places. Data at Mr. Duncan Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the parliamentary constituency level are not available prior Exchequer what plans he has to amend the definition to 2004. of hardship used by HM Revenue and Customs when Table 1: Part-time equivalent number of free early education places1,2,3 filled by considering debt recovery; and whether he plans to three and four-year-olds4 align that definition with the definition used by the Local authority: Essex Department of Work and Pensions. [317303] Position in January each year Three-year-olds Four-year-olds

Mr. Timms: Neither HM Revenue and Customs nor 1997 1,600 14,000 the Department for Work and Pensions have specific 1998 1,900 15,000 definitions of “hardship”in connection with debt recovery. 1999 2,000 15,200 When considering debt recovery, decisions are made 2000 2,000 15,100 based on the specific facts of each case and against the 2001 2,200 15,100 statutory framework within which each Department 2002 8,700 15,100 operates. 2003 11,500 15,000 2004 11,700 15,000 2005 11,900 14,400 CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES 2006 11,900 14,100 2007 12,300 14,100 2008 12,800 14,600 Children: Day Care 2009 13,000 15,100 1 A place is equal to 12.5 hours (five sessions) and can be filled by more than one Alan Keen: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, child. Schools and Families how many childcare places have 2 Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. 3 Prior to 2004, information on early education places was derived from returns been created in Feltham and Heston constituency since made by local authorities as part of the Nursery Education Grant (NEG) data 1997. [316682] collection exercise. From 2004 onwards, information has been derived from Early Years Census and School Census data. 4 Age of all children taken at 31 December in the previous calendar year. Dawn Primarolo: Information on the number of childcare Source: places is not available for parliamentary constituencies. NEG, Early Years Census and School Census 687W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 688W

Table 2: Part-time equivalent number of free early education places1,2,3 Children: Social Services filled by three and four-year-olds4 Parliamentary constituency: Castle Point Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Position in January Children, Schools and Families what the cost has been each year Three-year-olds Four-year-olds of each common area assessment of children’s services. 2004 760 880 [307578] 2005 690 880 Dawn Primarolo: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM 2006 700 850 Chief Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the 2007 720 830 hon. Member and a copy of her reply has been placed 2008 780 840 in the Library. 2009 750 870 Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 10 February 2010: 1 A place is equal to 12.5 hours (five sessions) and can be filled by more than one child. Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as 2 Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Her Majesty’s Chief 3 Prior to 2004, information on early education places was derived Inspector, for response. from returns made by local authorities as part of the Nursery Education In line with the Education and Inspections Act 2006 Ofsted is Grant (NEG) data collection exercise. These data were collected at charged with providing an annual performance rating for children’s local authority level, therefore, data for this parliamentary constituency services for each local authority area. The children’s services is not available prior to 2004. rating is a wide-ranging and robust assessment of the outcomes 4 Age of all children taken at 31 December in the previous calendar for children and young people that is strongly based on the year. Source: evidence from Ofsted inspections of early years provision, schools Early Years Census and School Census including special schools and Pupil Referral Units, colleges, fostering and adoption services, children’s homes, safeguarding and looked The latest figures on early education places for three after children services inspections. and four-year-olds in England were published in Statistical In addition, as one of the partner inspectorates, Ofsted has First Release (SFR) 11/2009 “Provision for children contributed to both the organisational and area assessments under five years of age in England: January 2009”, which together make up the Comprehensive Area Assessment of local areas, The children’s services rating is a significant factor in available on my Department’s website: the organisational assessment overall score for each council. For http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000848/ Ofsted and local authority children’s services the Comprehensive index.shtml Area Assessment replaces the annual performance assessment Children: Poverty and the joint area review programmes. The Comprehensive Area Assessment was introduced in April Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2009. Consequently costs are provisional and have been estimated Schools and Families what initiatives his Department for 12 months. Full audited costs will be available from the end of and its predecessors have taken to tackle child poverty June. Taking into account the time contributed to this work by Her Majesty’s Inspectors, data analysts, management and [313322] in Salford since 1997. administrative staff, the estimated cost of Ofsted’s contribution Dawn Primarolo: Since coming to office in 1997 the to the 2009 CAA is £18,829 per local authority. Please note that Government have developed a number of initiatives, this estimate does not include any allocation of corporate overhead. both nationally and locally, to tackle child poverty. A copy of this reply has been sent to Vernon Coaker MP, Minister of State for Schools and Learners, and will be placed in Salford has built on these national policies and developed the library of both Houses. their own local strategy to drive their child poverty agenda forward. My Department and Salford’s local Children’s Centres: East Sussex strategies have provided and strengthened family support through universal targeted specialist approaches including: Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Common Assessment Framework; Children, Schools and Families (1) how many children’s Children’s Centres and Family Intervention Projects to maximise centres there were in (a) Lewes constituency and (b) family and parenting support; and East Sussex in each year since 1997; [308453] the ″Think Family″ Pathfinder which encourages family and (2) how many children attended (a) Sure Start facilities community learning. and (b) children’s centres in Lewes constituency in the In addition to these initiatives, Salford is benefiting last 12 months for which information is available; and from the new multi-service assertive Outreach Teams how much such facilities cost in that period. [308462] and Children’s Centres which together are able to provide parents with a range of services. Dawn Primarolo: The following table details how Children’s Centres, in particular, disseminate up-to-date many designated Sure Start children’s centres there information on job vacancies, education, training and were in (a) Lewes constituency and (b) East Sussex volunteering, and often act as the first ″port of call″ for local authority in each year since 2004 (there were none those seeking specialist financial advice. Children’s Centres previous to this). provide a liaison point with Job Centre Plus to offer Table 1: Designated Sure Start children’s centres parents information on employment and skills and Lewes constituency East Sussex co-ordinate community-based learning and training. Their work is underpinned and further enhanced by the 2004 1 1 introduction of 35 community workers and teams of 2005 0 4 lone parent advisers, who are also located within the 2006 0 5 centres. 2007 1 13 2008 0 5 Salford is also part of the Manchester’s co-ordinated 2009 3 7 support for separating parents pilot, one of the eight Total 5 35 child poverty pilots being undertaken nationally. 689W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 690W

In East Sussex local authority, there are 35 designated Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Sure Start children’s centres which have a combined Schools and Families how many children in (a) Essex reach area of over 24,000 children under five and their and (b) Castle Point attend Sure Start centres. [318097] families. Of these, six are in Lewes constituency and have a reach area of over 5,000 children under five and Dawn Primarolo: The 85 designated Sure Start Children their families. Centres in Essex local authority have a combined reach of over 70,000 children under five and their families. Reach area defines those children and families with The six centres in Castle Point constituency have a the opportunity to access Sure Start children’s centres. combined reach of around 4,500 children under five Figures for the number of people actually using children’s and their families. Reach area defines those children centres are not collected centrally. and families with the opportunity to access children’s In 2008-09, East Sussex local authority spent £4,119,141 centres. Figures for the number of children under five on children’s centres revenue funding; £4,189,109 on and their families actually attending and using children’s Sure Start local programmes; and £446,448 on children’s centres are not collected centrally. centres capital funding. This is the latest 12-month period for which spend figures are available. Children’s Centres: Feltham The Department allocates funding to local authorities for Sure Start children’s centres, and its predecessor Alan Keen: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Sure Start local programmes, through the Sure Start, Schools and Families how much funding his Department Early Years and Childcare Grant. It is for local authorities has allocated for children’s centres in Feltham and to determine how to allocate the funding between individual Heston constituency. [316669] centres. The Department does not collect information Dawn Primarolo: Hounslow local authority has been on how much is allocated and spent at individual centre allocated over £31.6m revenue and capital funding to level. deliver its Sure Start Children’s Centres. The Department The allocations for Children’s Centres for East Sussex allocates funding to local authorities for children’s centres, for 2008-09 to 2010-11 are shown in Table 2. and its predecessor Sure Start Local programmes, through Table 2: Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare grant allocations for East Sussex the Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare Grant. It is local authority for local authorities to determine how to allocate the Revenue Capital funding between individual children’s centres. The Main Revenue Block SSLP Main Capital Block Department does not collect information on how much Block is allocated at constituency level. Total Sure Start Total Children’s main local Children’s Main centres revenue programmes Centres Capital GCSE 2008-09 3,995,304 7,360,556 3,460,552 698,435 2,771,127 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2009-10 5,261,515 8,358,567 3,154,933 1,456,072 3,528,764 Schools and Families pursuant to the answer of 18 January 2010-11 6,348,245 10,101,509 2,886,240 872,667 2,945,359 2010, Official Report, column 137W, on academies: Total 3,995,304 7,360,556 3,460,552 698,435 2,771,127 sponsorship, what the increase was in the proportion of pupils achieving at least five GCSEs at grades A* to C Children’s Centres: Essex including English and mathematics in 2009 in schools, other than academy schools, which had fewer than (a) 50, (b) 40 and (c) 30 per cent. of pupils achieving Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for this standard in 2008. [312798] Children, Schools and Families how much funding his Department has allocated for children’s centres in (a) Mr. Coaker [holding answer 25 January 2010]: The Essex and (b) Castle Point in each of the last three requested information is shown in the following table. years. [318096] Percentage end Percentage end KS4 pupils 5+ KS4 pupils 5+ Percentage Dawn Primarolo: Funding for Sure Start Children’s A*-C including A*-C including point Centres is provided to Local Authorities as part of the English and English and improvement Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare Grant (SSEYCG) maths 2008 maths 2009 2008-09 and is not allocated to individual constituencies. Essex Schools other than 33 37 +4 Local Authority is responsible for managing the SSEYCG academies with fewer funding and Children’s Centres performance across than 50 per cent. of end KS4 pupils their area and will decide how much to allocate to achieving 5+ A*-C centres in Castle Point. at GCSE (or equivalent) including The funding allocated to Essex for Children’s Centres English and maths in over the past three years is shown in Table 1. 2008 Table 1. Children’s Centres allocations for Essex local authority, 2007-08 to 2009-10. Schools other than 26 31 +5 (£) academies with fewer than 40 per cent. of Children’s Centres Revenue Children’s Centres Capital end KS4 pupils Allocation Allocation achieving 5+ A*-C at GCSE (or 2007-08 7,874,703 112,908,404 equivalent) including 2008-09 11,916,047 2,175,268 English and maths in 2009-10 15,750,814 5,751,259 2008 1 The 2007-08 allocation is for the wider Main Capital Block 691W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 692W

Pupil Database since the 2003-04 academic year, and on Percentage end Percentage end KS4 pupils 5+ KS4 pupils 5+ Percentage a consistent basis for a modern foreign language since A*-C including A*-C including point the 2007-08 academic year. English and English and improvement maths 2008 maths 2009 2008-09 Fifteen year old students1,2 resident3 in (a) Knowsley, (b) Kensington and Chelsea and (c) Islington local authorities who were entered for GCSEs in (i) Schools other than 17 23 +6 physics (ii) chemistry (iii) English literature (iv) history in 2003-04 academies with fewer Number of than 30 per cent. of Number of Number of Number of students1 end KS4 pupils students1 students1 students1 entered for achieving 5+ A*-C entered for entered for entered for English at GCSE (or chemistry physics history literature equivalent) including GCSE GCSE GCSE GCSE English and maths in 2008 Knowsley 109 109 467 1,654 Note: Chelsea 25 25 145 501 Independent and special schools are included in these figures Islington 23 23 369 1,280 1 Aged 15 on 31 August 2003. Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Students attending maintained schools only including City Technology Colleges Children, Schools and Families (1) how many students and Academies. 3 Based on students with a valid postcode in that academic year. resident in (a) Knowsley, (b) Kensington and Chelsea Source: and (c) Islington sat a GCSE in (i) physics, (ii) National Pupil Database (final data) chemistry, (iii) English literature, (iv) history and (v) a Students at the end of Key Stage 41,2 resident3 in (a) Knowsley, (b) modern language in 1997; [316846] Kensington and Chelsea and (c) Islington local authorities who were entered for GCSEs in a modern foreign language in 2007-08 (2) how many students resident in (a) Knowsley and Local Authority Number (b) Kensington and Chelsea sat a GCSE in (i) physics, (ii) chemistry, (iii) English literature, (iv) history and (v) Knowsley 800 a modern language in the most recent year for which Kensington and Chelsea 270 figures are available. [316847] Islington 605 1 Number of students on roll at the end of Key Stage 4 in the 2007-08 Mr. Coaker: Consistent information about pupil academic year. achievement based on residency is only available for 2 Students attending maintained schools only including City Technology Colleges and Academies. years 2002-03 onwards. Information on whether a pupil 3 Based on students with a valid postcode in that academic year. has entered GCSEs in chemistry, physics, history and Source: English literature has also only been on the National National Pupil Database (final data)

Students at the end of Key Stage 41,2 resident3 in (a) Knowsley and (b) Kensington and Chelsea local authorities who were entered for GCSEs in (i) physics (ii) chemistry (iii) English literature (iv) history and (v) a modern foreign language in 2008/2009 Number of students1 entered for a Modern Number of students1 Number of students1 Number of students1 Number of students1 Foreign Language entered for Chemistry entered for Physics entered for History entered for English Local Authority GCSE GCSE GCSE GCSE Literature GCSE

Knowsley 795 82 81 425 1,276 Kensington and 259 25 25 170 481 Chelsea 1 Number of students on roll at the end of Key Stage 4 in the 2008-09 academic year. 2 Students attending maintained schools only including City Technology Colleges and Academies. 3 Based on students with a valid postcode in that academic year. Source: National Pupil Database (amended data)

Home Education the free entitlement for three and four-year-olds. This amount is up from around £1 billion in 1997-98. Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for In 2010-11, funding of £340 million has been made Children, Schools and Families if he will recommend available to local authorities through the Standards an increase in the use of school attendance orders as a Fund to fund the 2.5 hours per week extension to the method of supporting families with home-educated three and four-year-old free entitlement and flexible children. [318522] delivery. Local authorities will shortly be submitting their Mr. Coaker: No, the usage of those measures is left to budget plans to the Department for the 2010-11 financial the local authorities’ discretion. year, as required by section 251 of the Apprenticeships Skills Children and Learners Act 2009. Pre-school Education Schools: Essex Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much he expects Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for local authorities to spend on delivering the three to Children, Schools and Families how much has been four year-old nursery entitlement in 2010-11. [316091] spent on repairing schools in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in each year since 1997; and what proportion of Dawn Primarolo: In 2008-09 over £4 billion was spent that expenditure was spent on schools which failed to by local authorities on provision for under fives including meet standards on acoustics. [318088] 693W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 694W

Mr. Coaker: Repairs which bring schools back to (2) how many schools in Salford have been (a) their original state constitute a revenue expense, and are rebuilt and (b) significantly refurbished since 1997. paid out of revenue funding. Repairs which amount to [317384] capital improvement, such as a better insulation, are payable from capital allocations. Mr. Coaker: Capital funding allocated by the Department School revenue and capital allocations are not made to schools in Salford amounted to: (a) £5.5 million in directly to Castle Point, but to Essex county council. 1997-98; and (b) £18.9 million in 2009-10. School-based revenue expenditure on repair and Since 1997, the 2007 and 2009 building survey returns maintenance is shown in the following table. received from Salford City Council, show there have been: (a) 17 schools (eight Primary and nine Secondary) £ rebuilt; and (b) 14 schools (13 Primary and one Secondary) Essex England significantly refurbished. A significant refurbishment is deemed to apply when over 50 per cent. of the school 1999- 14,003,000 631,994,000 2000 floor area has changed. 2000-01 19,815,000 670,942,000 Schools: Vocational Guidance 2001-02 24,214,000 729,882,000 2002-03 14,780,000 503,199,000 Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 2003-04 14,309,000 501,233,000 for Children, Schools and Families what guidance his 2004-05 15,794,000 550,301,000 Department provides to schools on options to be offered 2005-06 15,662,000 608,386,000 to (a) pupils by careers services offered in schools and 2006-07 17,869,000 645,680,000 (b) training of staff of such services. [318198] 2007-08 18,993,000 731,938,000 2008-09 20,815,000 738,599,000 Mr. Iain Wright [holding answer 24 February 2010]: Notes: In October 2009 we published ‘Quality, Choice and 1. Up to 2001-02, the figures cover all expenditure on non-capital Aspiration: A strategy for young people’s information, building works, including repairs and maintenance of buildings, and non-capital expenditure on fixed plant and grounds. advice and guidance’, which sets out a range of resources 2. From 2002-03, the definition of the figures is: Building maintenance and support for the school work force, including training and improvement, including: and development, to improve the delivery of information, Charges by contractors for internal and external repair, maintenance advice and guidance. and improvement to buildings and fixed plant including costs of labour and materials; Related professional and technical services, Alongside the strategy we published statutory guidance including labour costs where supplied as part of the contract/service; on impartial careers education, setting out how schools Costs of materials and equipment used by directly employed staff for must deliver high quality impartial information about internal and external repair, maintenance and improvement to buildings learning options that promotes the best interests of and fixed plant; Fixtures and fittings e.g. carpet, curtains, etc. pupils. An accompanying resources pack supports schools 3. All figures rounded to the nearest £1,000. in implementing the statutory guidance. The provision Capital allocations by the Department to Essex in of careers advice in schools is based on a partnership each year since 1997-98 are as follows: between the school and the Connexions service and other specialist services commissioned by the local authority. £ million We will shortly consult on draft Directions and statutory guidance for local authorities in the delivery of such 1997-98 11.4 services. 1998-99 15.5 1999-2000 21.9 Social Services: Doncaster 2000-01 57.3 2001-02 48.9 Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for 2002-03 95.5 Children, Schools and Families what reasons Mr. Mark 2003-04 77.4 Hodson gave his Department for leaving his post as 2004-05 80.2 Director of Children’s Services in Doncaster in 2007. 2005-06 72.4 [312794] 2006-07 56.7 2007-08 66.4 Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 25 January 2008-09 109.4 2010]: Like all employees Mark Hodson was appointed 2009-10 107.9 by Doncaster council in accordance with its recruitment 2010-11 266.8 procedures. Similarly Mark Hodson’s decision to step down from his post as Doncaster council’s Director of Children’s Services in 2007 was a matter between Mark Information is not held on the proportion of expenditure Hodson and the council. spent on acoustic improvements in schools. Vetting: Local Education Authorities

Schools: Salford Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families with reference to the Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Answer to the hon. Member for Aylesbury of 16 October Schools and Families (1) what capital funding was 2009, Official Report, column 1106W,on schools: vetting, allocated to schools in Salford in (a) 1997 and (b) what guidance has been given to local authorities on 2009; [317390] whether (a) lead member councillors and (b) other 695W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 696W councillors required to register under the vetting and Table 1. Age-standardised mortality rate per 100,000 population1,2, barring scheme will also be required to undergo Criminal where cancer was the underlying cause of death,3 Essex county and Castle Point local authority,4 1997 and 20085 Records Bureau checks. [309547] 95% Confidence Area Year Rate Interval Dawn Primarolo: No guidance has been issued to local authorities on whether lead members and other Essex 1997 181 (175-187) councillors who are required to register under the vetting 2008 167 (162-172) and barring scheme will also be required to undergo Castle 1997 192 (167-217) Criminal Records Bureau checks. Individual councillors Point may currently undergo CRB checks because of particular 2008 167 (147-187) functions they may exercise for the local authority for 1 Age-standardised mortality rates per 100,000 population, standardised which they are a member, for example being a member to the European Standard Population. Age-standardised rates are of the local authority’s fostering or adoption panel. used to allow comparison between populations which may contain The Government confirmed in their response to Sir different proportions of people of different ages. Roger Singleton’s report ‘Drawing the Line’ on the 2 Confidence intervals are a measure of the statistical precision of an estimate and show the range of uncertainty around the estimated vetting and barring scheme, Official Report, 14 December figure. Calculations based on small numbers of events are often 2009, column 50WS, that they intends to review their subject to random fluctuations. As a general rule, if the confidence requirements for CRB disclosures. interval around one figure overlaps with the interval around another, we cannot say with certainty that there is more than a chance difference between the two figures. 3 Cause of death for cancer was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision (ICD-9) codes 140-208 for CABINET OFFICE 1997 and Tenth Revision (ICD-10) codes C00-C97 for 2008. 4 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 10 Downing Street: Repairs and Maintenance 5 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year. Census Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office pursuant to the answer of 3 February 2010, Official Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Report, column 401W, on 10 Downing Street: repairs (1) what timetable has been set for laying before Parliament and maintenance, what the nature is of the works that and seeking approval for the Census Regulations relating have been undertaken as part of Project George to date. to the 2011 Census; [318125] [318302] (2) what the timetable is for the laying and ratification of the Census regulations for the 2011 Census; and Angela E. Smith: The Government are legally required whether they will be subject to positive, negative or to maintain the Downing Street complex to standards hybrid resolution. [318244] appropriate to its Grade I and II listed status in consultation with English Heritage. In addition to providing office Angela E. Smith: I expect to lay the Census (England) accommodation the building also fulfils an important Regulations 2010 before both Houses of Parliament representational role. The last significant refurbishment within the next couple of weeks. In accordance with the works at the Downing street complex were undertaken Census Act 1920, the regulations will be subject to between 1960 and 1963. As a result much of the negative resolution. infrastructure required renewal or upgrading. Essential improvements are being undertaken through ongoing Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet annual maintenance works. Office whether the contracts let for services relating to the 2011 Census contain break clauses. [318127] Cancer: Essex Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. what the cancer mortality rate was in (a) Essex and (b) I have asked the authority to reply. Castle Point in (i) 1997 and (ii) the latest period for Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2010: which figures are available. [318103] As the Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS) I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls whether the contracts let for the services relating to the 2011 within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Census contain break clauses. (318127) I have asked the Authority to reply. Every commercial contract agreed in respect of the 2011 Letter from Dennis Roberts, dated February 2010: Census programme contains break clauses. This is normal public procurement practice. As the majority of contracts are fixed The Director General for the Office for National Statistics has price, ONS would incur financial penalties if these break clauses been asked to reply to your recent question asking what the were invoked for reasons other than poor contractor performance. cancer mortality rate was in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in (i) 1997 and (ii) the latest period for which figures are available. I am This information was given in answer to a question from Nick replying in his absence. (318103) Hurd MP, Official Report, 3 December, column 955W. The table attached provides the age-standardised mortality Charities: Hizb ut-Tahrir rate, where cancer was the underlying cause of death in (a) Essex county and (b) Castle Point local authority, in (i) 1997 and (ii) 2008 (the latest year available). Margaret Moran: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Figures for Essex county do not include deaths in Southend-on-Sea Office how many investigations under the Charities Act and Thurrock unitary authorities, which were part of the former 2006 the Charity Commission has conducted relating County of Essex. to breaches of articles on the grounds of (a) political 697W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 698W activity and (b) providing a platform to Hizb ut-Tahrir Angela E. Smith: Not all vacancies advertised on the and associated groups; and how many (i) mosques and civil service jobs site show salary details. Of those that (ii) other charitable organisations have had their were advertised in the last six months showing salary charitable status revoked following investigations of details, 43 roles fell within the £81,600 to £220,000 each type. [318531] salary range. The total figure of 43 was made up of 11 jobs Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls advertised on the public part of the civil service jobs site within the responsibility of the Charity Commission. I and 32 on the internal part of the site. have asked the Commission to reply. Letter from Andrew Hind, dated 23 February 2010: Departmental Disabled Staff As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, I have been asked to respond to your written Parliamentary Question Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (318531) on how many investigations under the Charities Act the Charity Commission has conducted relating to breaches of articles Office how many and what proportion of staff in (a) on the grounds of (a) political activity and (b) providing a her Department, (b) the Prime Minister’s Office, (c) platform to Hizb ut-Tahrir and associated groups; and how many the Office of the Leader of the House and (d) the (i) mosques and (ii) other charitable organisations have had their executive agencies for which her Department is responsible charitable status revoked following investigations of each type. are disabled; and what the average salary in each (i) Your question refers to ‘investigations’. It may be helpful to Office and (ii) agency is of (A) full-time disabled staff, provide some background information on the way in which we (B) full-time non-disabled staff, (C) part-time disabled carry out our investigatory compliance work, which has changed staff and (D) part-time non-disabled staff. [317902] significantly over recent years. Prior to our strategic review in 2005, our practice was to carry out all investigations as formal statutory inquiries under section 8 of the Charities Act 1993. We Angela E. Smith: The Prime Minister’s Office and the now carry out a wider range of compliance work dealing with Office of the Leader of the House of Commons are an problems in charities. This includes assessment cases, monitoring, integral part of the Cabinet Office. non-statutory investigations that we call regulatory compliance The latest information for which figures are available cases, as well as section 8 statutory inquiries. We now reserve on the number and proportion of staff that are disabled statutory inquiries only for the most serious cases of regulatory concern. Last year, for example, we conducted 1,504 assessment in Cabinet Office is contained in the Annual Civil cases and 211 monitoring cases, and completed 167 regulatory Service Employment Survey (ACSES) statistics published compliance cases and 21 statutory inquiries. on the Office for National Statistics website and can be The statistical information we hold for the purposes of our found at table ‘38’ at this link: investigations is not designed to identify the sort of data you are http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_labour/Civil- looking for. However, I have looked at our statistics for both service-tables-2009-final.xls non-statutory investigations and statutory inquiries for the last This information is also shown in the following table: three complete financial years going back to 2006-07 and can provide the following information. Number In relation to (a), we have carried out 29 investigations regarding political activity since 2006-07, out a total of 736 investigations. Number of disabled employees 50 These 29 investigations were to examine allegations or concerns Number of non-disabled 690 about inappropriate political activity and campaigning by charities, employees or charities making political donations or giving support to a Number of employees not 590 political party. I should point out that revocation of charitable declared or non-response status is not a legal remedy if a charity has broken political campaigning rules. Our role in these cases is to make good the Total number of employees 1,330 breach (for example, to ensure inappropriate payment by a charity All employees with known 740 to a political party is repaid) and ensure steps are taken to prevent disability status recurrence. Disabled employees as 6.8 As you may know, charities can campaign and undertake percentage of known disability political activity but cannot have political purposes. If we find status that an organisation, although registered as a charity, does in fact have a political purpose, it cannot be a charity in law. In these The latest information from the Office of National cases, we would remove the organisation from the Register of Statistics, which is not published, on which figures are Charities because it was never in fact a charity. Our records show available on the median gross annual earnings of full-time that we have removed two charities from the Register on this and part-time disabled and non-disabled staff in Cabinet basis: one in October 2001 and the other in July 2004. Regarding Office is detailed in the following table: part (i) of your question, I can confirm that neither of these organisations were mosques. Median earnings (£) In relation to (b), our statistical information does not allow us Disabled Non-disabled to readily identify on a historical basis cases regarding allegations that a charity may have provided a platform to Hizb ut-Tahrir. Full-time 30,000 33,881 However, I can confirm that we have no current statutory or Part-time 27,100 27,530 non-statutory investigations into such concerns. I hope this is a helpful response to your question. Departmental Internet Civil Servants: Pay Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet how many designs for its website her Department has Office which of the jobs advertised on the (a) internal commissioned since 2005. [318658] and (b) public versions of the Civil Service jobs website had salaries of £150,000 or over in the last six months. Tessa Jowell: The Cabinet Office has commissioned [318128] one design for its website since 2005. 699W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 700W

Employment Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office I have asked the Authority to reply. whether a recent estimate has been made of the number Letter from Dennis Roberts, dated February 2010: of (a) public and (b) private sector employees in each The Director General for the Office for National Statistics has constituency. [318122] been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many young people aged 16 and 17 years in (a) Chesterfield and Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls (b) Derbyshire have claimed jobseeker’s allowance in each year within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. since 2005.1 am replying in his absence. (318765) I have asked the Authority to reply. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles the number Letter from Dennis Roberts, dated February 2010: of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) from the Jobcentre The Director General for the Office for National Statistics has Plus administrative system. Table 1 shows the number of people been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking whether aged 16 and 17 resident in Chesterfield parliamentary constituency, a recent estimate has been made of the number of (a) public and Chesterfield local authority and Derbyshire claiming Jobseeker’s (b) private sector employees in each constituency. I am replying in Allowance (JSA) in January 2010 and January of each year since his absence. (318122) 2005. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles employment National and local area estimates for many labour market statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. count are available on the NOMIS website at: Individuals are classified to the public or private sector according http://www.nomisweb.co.uk to their responses to the APS. Consequently, the classification of Table 1: Number of persons1 aged 16 and 17 claiming jobseeker’s an individual’s sector may differ from how they would be classified allowance resident in Chesterfield parliamentary constituency, in the National Accounts. Chesterfield local authority and Derbyshire Table 1, shows the number of persons employed in the public Chesterfield Chesterfield and private sectors in each constituency in Great Britain from the (pc) (la) Derbyshire APS for the period July 2008 to June 2009. Estimates for Northern Ireland are not available. As the information requested is quite January 2005 40 40 135 extensive, a copy has been placed in the House of Commons January 2006 30 30 115 Library. January 2007 20 20 95 As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject January 2008 15 20 85 to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates January 2009 5 5 65 is given in table 1. January 2010 5 5 45 National and local area estimates for many labour market 1 statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Age data are only available for computerised claims, which account for 99.7 per cent. of all claims. count are available on the NOMIS website at: Note: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Data rounded to nearest five. Source: Employment Tribunals Service Job-centre Plus Administrative System

Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office New Businesses: Essex how many employment disputes involving staff of her Department have been taken to an employment tribunal Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office in the last four years; and what the (a) grounds of how many businesses have started up in (a) Essex and dispute and (b) outcome was of each. [318246] (b) Castle Point since 1997. [318102] Angela E. Smith: There was one employment dispute Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls taken to an employment tribunal in November 2009. within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. The basis of the dispute was unfair constructive dismissal. I have asked the Authority to reply. The claim was dismissed by the tribunal. Letter from Dennis Roberts, dated February 2010: Government Departments: Advertising The Director General for the Office for National Statistics has been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question concerning Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many businesses have started up in (a) Essex and (b) Castle what recent estimate she has made of the proportion of Point since 1997. I am replying in his absence. [318102] Government advertising expenditure which is not Annual statistics on business births, deaths and survival are administered by the Central Office of Information. available for 2002 onwards from the ONS release on Business [318119] Demography at www.statistics.gov.uk The following table contains the latest statistics available on Tessa Jowell: This information is not collected centrally. business births for Essex and Castle Point. Each Government Department, agency and NDPB is Enterprise births for Essex and Castle Point 2002-2008 responsible for setting its own communications priorities Essex county Castle Point and outputs, and each Secretary of State is responsible to Parliament. 2002 6,055 340 2003 6,590 340 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Chesterfield 2004 6,980 355 2005 6,560 390 Paul Holmes: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2006 6,315 360 Office how many young people aged 16 and 17 years in 2007 6,880 370 (a) (b) Chesterfield and Derbyshire have claimed 2008 6,770 340 jobseeker’s allowance in each year since 2005. [318765] 701W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 702W

Personal Income Building Britain’s Future is a Government initiative and we will ensure that it is not misrepresented by Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet political parties or other organisations. Office what the average income of a household in the It is acceptable for other organisations to highlight (a) private rented sector and (b) social rented sector Government initiatives as long as they are clear that was in each of the last three years. [316740] they are Government initiatives. Building Britain’s Future and Real Help Now have been referred to by a number Helen Goodman: I have been asked to reply. of third party organisations in this way. The information requested is given in the table for Public Bodies: Pay periods where data are available. In each of the three years those households living in Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office private rented sector accommodation have had higher how many officials in each public sector body earn median incomes than those living in the social rented more than £150,000. [312260] sector on both a before and after housing basis. This pattern is to be expected as poverty rates tend to be Mr. Byrne: I have been asked to reply. higher for the social rented sector. Individual pay decisions are made by individual public Before housing costs, the median household income sector bodies and Departments so this information is of private rented sector tenants was between about not held centrally. The Office for National Statistics £360 and £370 per week (between about £250 and collects the annual salaries of civil servants, as part of £260 per week after housing costs). In the same period the Annual Civil Service Employment Survey (ACSES) the median household income of social rented sector and I refer the right hon. Member to the answer given tenants remained fairly constant at around £280 per to him on 20 July 2009, Official Report, columns 1035- week (around £210 per week after housing costs). 1036W. Median household income by rented sector, 2005-06 to 2007-08, £ per Following the 2009 pre-Budget report, all public sector week, before housing costs (BHC) and after housing costs (AHC), in 2007-08 prices, United Kingdom bodies subject to direct ministerial control will be required £ to publish the salary, including benefits in kind and the 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 level of any bonus, of named individuals paid more than £150,000 to the nearest £5,000 and the number of BHC AHC BHC AHC BHC AHC staff paid more than £50,000 in £5,000 increments. The Private 368 257 357 250 365 260 Government will expect other public bodies to comply rented with this level of disclosure. sector Social 281 210 281 210 279 211 rented sector Notes: FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income, sourced from the Family Resources Survey. Both of these documents Antarctic are available in the Library. 2. Small changes should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 3. The reference period for Households Below Average Income figures and Commonwealth Affairs how long on average his are single financial years. Department’s Polar Regions Unit took to process an 4. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions application for a British expedition to Antarctica in the publication ‘Households Below Average Income’ series, which uses last 12 months. [318674] disposable household income, adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard Chris Bryant: Our website states that permit applications of living. should be submitted to us as far in advance as possible, 5. For the Households Below Average Income series, incomes have been equivalised using Organisation for Economic Co-operation and and not less than six months before the applicant intends Development equivalisation factors. to travel to Antarctica so there is adequate time to work 6. Median incomes have been provided rather than mean incomes with applicants to resolve any queries and ensure a because the income distribution is skewed with some outliers with smooth permitting process. Experience has shown that high incomes. the time it takes to process an application can vary 7. Incomes are presented in 2007-08 prices and have been rounded to the nearest pound sterling. depending on the type of activities the applicant wishes Source: to complete and the type of permit they are applying Households Below Average Income, DWP for. In all cases we aim to process applications as quickly Political Parties: Copyright as possible following receipt.

Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Bletchley Park what Crown copyright permission has been granted to political parties for the reproduction of artwork or Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign content from the (a) Building Britain’s Future and (b) and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department Real Help Now campaigns. [318245] has taken to recognise those who worked at Bletchley Park during the Second World War in the last 10 years. Tessa Jowell: None. [318072] 703W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 704W

Chris Bryant: On 9 July 2009 I announced the launch not to deport the 30 families it had originally identified of the Bletchley Park Commemorative Badge, to honour for removal. We will continue to co-ordinate closely those who worked at Bletchley Park and its outstations with UN High Commissioner for Refugees, US and EU during the Second World War. The launch was marked partners and will continue to raise any concerns with by a special ceremony at Bletchley Park on 9 October Thai authorities. 2009, which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary David Proctor attended. Since its launch, over 2500 badges and accompanying certificates have been awarded to surviving veterans. In addition to the Commemorative Badge a Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State bound Roll of Honour will be created containing the for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what names of all those that worked at Bletchley Park and its representations he has received in respect of Mr. David outstations during the Second World War, which will be Proctor, a UK citizen who has been refused permission located at Bletchley Park and on their website. to leave the State of Qatar; [318364] (2) what representations Her Majesty’s Government British Nationals Abroad: Prisoners has made to the Government of the State of Qatar in respect of Mr. David Proctor; what consular assistance Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign has been provided to Mr. Proctor by his Department; and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate his Department and if he will make a statement; [318365] has made of the number of British citizens who have (3) what investigations have been made by Her Majesty’s been subject to (a) torture and (b) other cruel and Government into the circumstances surrounding the degrading punishments consequent upon conviction of detention of Mr. David Proctor by the authorities in the criminal offences in overseas jurisdictions. [318153] State of Qatar; and if he will make a statement; [318366] (4) what recent discussions he has had with the Chris Bryant: We are not aware of any British nationals Ambassador of the State of Qatar about the detention who are currently facing torture or other cruel and of Mr. David Proctor in Qatar; [318367] degrading punishments consequent upon conviction of criminal offences in overseas jurisdictions. We are opposed (5) what plans he has for discussions of the case of to torture and mistreatment in all circumstances. If we Mr. David Proctor with the Ambassador of the State have reason to believe that a British national in detention of Qatar; and if he will make a statement. [318368] is being mistreated, whether prior to or following conviction, then with the permission of the individual we will take Chris Bryant: Our embassy in Doha are aware of all appropriate action to ensure that mistreatment stops, Mr. Proctor’s case and have been providing consular and that the incident is investigated and the perpetrators assistance. The embassy has also expressed concern brought to justice. about the length of time it is taking to resolve his situation. Since the end of January our ambassador in Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Qatar has met with Mr. Proctor and has had two and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate his subsequent telephone conversations with him. Our consul Department has made of the number of British citizens has also had two separate meetings with him, and who are under sentence of death in other jurisdictions; Mrs. Proctor had two meetings with consular staff and what steps he is taking to assist such individuals. during her recent visit to London. We will continue to [318154] stay in touch with Mr. Proctor and the Qatari authorities. Our embassy in Doha has raised Mr. Proctor’s case Chris Bryant: We are currently aware of eight British with the Qatari authorities to establish the nature of the nationals sentenced to death and a further 26 facing investigation into him and the existence of a ban on his charges which may attract the death penalty. The leaving Qatar while the investigation is ongoing. As of Government are strongly opposed to the death penalty. 22 February 2010, no charges had been brought against We express our opposition to its use on British nationals him, but the Public Prosecution Department’s investigation at whatever stage and level is judged appropriate from into allegations made by his former employer continues. the moment when the imposition of a death sentence Mr. Proctor is not being held in detention by the becomes a possibility. Qatari authorities but the embassy have received confirmation that an administrative travel ban remains Burma: Asylum in place which will not be lifted until the investigation is resolved. Additionally we understand that there are two Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign separate legal matters running concurrently. The first is and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has a financial dispute between Mr. Proctor and his former had with his counterpart in the government of employer, the second a labour dispute lodged by Mr. Proctor Thailand on its proposals to deport Karen refugees against his former employer. We are unable to intervene back to Burma. [317192] in private legal issues. As the matter is being dealt with by our embassy in Chris Bryant: The Government are closely monitoring Qatar there have been no discussions with the Qatari reports about the possible forced return of Karen refugees ambassador in London. to Burma. Our ambassador to Thailand has raised our concerns with the Thai Foreign Minister and with the Departmental Disabled Staff Secretary-General of the National Security Council stressing the importance of adherence to international Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign standards and to Thailand’s international obligations. and Commonwealth Affairs how many and what We understand that the Royal Thai Government decided proportion of staff in (a) his Department and (b) the 705W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 706W executive agencies for which he is responsible are community over its nuclear programme. We have made disabled; and what the average salary in (i) his clear that we are totally committed to finding a diplomatic Department and (ii) the executive agencies is of (A) solution to this issue in order to avoid the serious full-time disabled staff, (B) full-time non-disabled staff, consequences of diplomacy failing. We will continue to (C) part-time disabled staff and (D) part-time non- work intensively with our partners to that end. disabled staff. [317891] Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Chris Bryant: The proportion of Foreign and and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on Commonwealth Office (FCO) staff declaring a disability, further sanctions against Iran. [318142] and the median earnings of full-time and part-time staff, both disabled and non-disabled, are given in Annexes Chris Bryant: The Government continue to pursue A and B of the Annual Civil Service Employment the dual track strategy of engagement and pressure to Survey statistics published by the Office for National address the issue of Iran’s nuclear programme. In that Statistics on 20 January 2010. A copy of the document context, the Government support further appropriate has been placed in the Library of the House. Separate use of sanctions designed to influence the regime decision figures are given for the FCO’s executive agency, Wilton making on the nuclear file. Park. Dubai: Interpol Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has Mr. Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the threat posed by Iran to other countries in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the UK’s the Middle East. [318155] Ambassador in Tel Aviv has had discussions with the British passport holders named in the Interpol request Chris Bryant: We remain concerned by Iran’s support following the murder of Mr Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in for groups such as Hamas and Hizballah which threaten Dubai on the circumstances in which their passport regional stability through violence, militia groups in details may have been compromised. [318760] Iraq and the Taleban in Afghanistan. We assess that Iran’s ability to create instability in the Middle East Chris Bryant: The UK is providing support to the would be greatly increased if it had a nuclear weapons British nationals who have been affected by this fraudulent capability. This underlines the urgency of finding a activity. Our officials at the British embassy in Tel Aviv diplomatic solution to the issue of Iran’s nuclear programme have contacted the affected British nationals, and stand and we are working intensely with international partners ready to provide them with the support that they need. to achieve this. Iran needs to engage with the international community and its regional neighbours to restore confidence GCHQ: Internet in its intentions.

David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what expenditure has been and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he incurred on the Mastering the Internet programme at has made of (a) the threat posed to the UK by Iran GCHQ to date. [318271] and (b) Iran’s capacity to obtain nuclear weapons. [318156] Chris Bryant [holding answer 24 February 2010]: I refer the right hon. Member to the answer given to the Chris Bryant: The latest International Atomic Energy hon. Member for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire) on Agency (IAEA) report confirms our fears that Iran is 15 May 2009, Official Report, column 1088W, namely acting duplicitously and illegally with their nuclear that Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) programme. Iran has ignored IAEA requests for continues to invest to maintain its capabilities in the information about the possible military dimension of face of growth in internet-based communications. The their programme, has built a secret enrichment plant in use of internet technologies and skills are one of the Qom, and has enriched uranium up to 20 per cent. greatest challenges GCHQ has to master in order to despite the IAEA telling them not to do so. deliver intelligence in accordance with its statutory purposes set out in the Intelligence Services Act 1994 (section 3). The actions of the Iranian regime threaten the stability In the interests of national security detailed figures on of the region as a whole, which has profound implications Security and Intelligence Agency expenditure are not for the UK and highlights the need for the international made public, but are subject to parliamentary scrutiny community to impose appropriate sanctions in order to through the Intelligence and Security Committee (ISC). bring Iran back to negotiations. The ISC’s annual report for 2007-08 was published in March 2009. Marshall Aid Commemoration Commission Iran Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has promote the Marshall Aid Commemoration Commission’s made of the risk of other countries in the Middle East scholarship programme. [318669] taking military action against Iran. [318140] Chris Bryant: We work very closely with the Marshall Chris Bryant: There is widespread speculation about Aid Commemoration Commission to maintain the the possibility of military action against Iran as a result reputation of the scholarship programme and to ensure of its refusal to engage seriously with the international that the best candidates are selected. 707W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 708W

HOME DEPARTMENT Table 2: Violence against the person, CDRP Sevenoaks, 2002-03 to 2008-09 Automatic Number Plate Recognition Number 2002-03 767 David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2003-04 702 Home Department how many intelligence-led stops 2004-05 782 have been generated by the Automatic Number Plate 2005-06 933 Recognition CCTV network in each year since 2006; 2006-07 962 whether approval under the Regulation of Investigatory 2007-08 723 Powers Act 2000 was obtained in each case; and whether 2008-09 723 such approvals have been disclosed in subsequent court Note: proceedings. [318333] The data in this table take account of the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are Mr. Hanson: The operation of police-owned Automatic not directly comparable with those for earlier years. Number Plate Recognition systems is the responsibility Identity Cards of individual chief officers and information relating to intelligence-led stops is not collated centrally. Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Identity and Passport Service has made an estimate of the (a) gross annual Children: Abuse revenue likely to be generated from fees for the replacement of (i) lost and (ii) stolen identity cards and (b) annual Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for average number of cards per 1,000 identity card holders the Home Department for what reasons a caution was likely to be (A) lost and (B) stolen. [318114] issued in respect of (a) rape and (b) other offences of abuse of a child in the last five years. [317726] Meg Hillier: The Identity and Passport Service is not forecasting any material volumes or income in relation Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office do not hold to lost or stolen cards. information concerning the issuing of a caution for each individual case. Identity Cards: Young People A caution for rape of a child must be sanctioned by the CPS and should only be used by the police in the Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the most exceptional circumstances. It is a function of the Home Department pursuant to the written ministerial Official Report police to consider cautions and it is a statutory duty of statement of 25 January 2010, , column a Crown Prosecutor to consider whether a prosecution 41WS, on identity cards, how many people aged should proceed, taking into account the requirement between 16 and 24 years old registered their interest in for a reasonable prospect of conviction and the public a voluntary identity card by 1 January 2010. [317243] interest in the particular prosecution in question. Meg Hillier: As of 1 January 2010 there were 2,662 registrations from people aged 16 to 24 on the Early Interest website. Crimes Against the Person: Sevenoaks National Identity Register Mr. Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many offences against the person Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for the have been recorded in the Sevenoaks district in each Home Department pursuant to the answer of 1 February year since 1997. [318196] 2010, Official Report, column 91W, on the national identity register, how many years after the death of an Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 24 February 2010]: individual, that person’s personal data will be removed The requested information relates to offences of violence from the register. [318320] against the person recorded in the Crime and Disorder Reduction Partnership (CDRP) of Sevenoaks. CDRP Meg Hillier: The Identity Cards Act 2006 provides data are available only since 1999-2000. that the date of death may be held on the national The information requested is given in the following identity register. There is no set number of years for tables: which this information may be retained as it will be retained for as long as is necessary, for example to Table 1: Violence against the person, CDRP Sevenoaks, 1999-2000 to 2001-02 prevent an individual’s identity from being stolen after death. Number

1999-2000 504 Passports: Older People 2000-01 443 2001-02 374 Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the Note: Home Department if he will make an assessment of the The data in this table are prior to the introduction of the National merits of advancing the fee exemption date for passport Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not applications for persons born before 2 September 1929 directly comparable with those for later years. by one year each year. [319216] 709W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 710W

Meg Hillier: There are no plans to extend the free n/a = Not applicable. not available. passport scheme as it is not a simple age-related concession. 1 This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. Figures include officers on It was introduced in 2004 by the then Home Secretary career break or maternity/paternity leave. as a concession for veterans of the Second World War 2 Police personnel statistics are not collected by parliamentary constituency. who were attending 60th Anniversary Commemorative Data have been provided for Bournemouth Basic Command Unit for Events. It was decided to extend the initial scheme to 2005 to 2008. In 2009, the Basic Command Unit breakdown within cover everyone who was 16 or older by the end of the Dorset changed. The figure for 2009 is for ’Bournemouth and Poole’. 3 Not available. war and so may have contributed to the war effort in a Note: military or civilian capacity. The latest available information at force level is as at 30 September 2009, while the latest available information at Basic Command Unit level is at 31 March 2009. Police: Finance Prosecutions: EU Action

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what (a) the average budget for all Home Department what his policy is on the establishment police forces in England and (b) the budget of Dorset of an Office of the European Public Prosecutor; and Police was in each of the last five years. [318201] what discussions he has had with his European counterparts on such an office in the last three months. [317972] Mr. Hanson [holding answer 24 February 2010]: Setting of budgets is a matter for individual police authorities. Meg Hillier: The Government have consistently opposed The information requested is provided in the table: the creation of a European Public Prosecutor (EPP). Were such a proposal to emerge, it would have to be £ agreed by unanimity of all participating member states. England police Dorset police The UK would also have the choice of whether or not average budget authority budget to participate by virtue of our Protocol to the Treaty on 2005-06 239,742,395 99,253,000 the Functioning of the EU, which says that we are 2006-07 249,514,186 103,055,700 opted out of any proposals in this area unless we choose 2007-08 260,563,320 107,800,000 to opt-in. So the UK could not be bound to accept any 2008-09 270,078,887 111,791,785 such measure. 2009-10 278,203,514 115,933,100 The Home Secretary has not held dedicated discussions Source: on this issue with any European counterparts. But Data are taken from the Budget Requirement (BR) forms submitted within the context of negotiations on the new JHA annually by all billing and precepting authorities in England to the work programme (the Stockholm Programme) there Department for Communities and Local Government. were wider discussions among EU member states on the The England police average includes that part of the Greater London Authority that relates solely to the Metropolitan police. future establishment of a European Public Prosecutor (EPP). As part of those discussions, the UK argued against the need for an EPP.The Stockholm Programme Police: Manpower makes reference to the EPP as one possibility to further develop EUROJUST (the EU judicial cooperation agency) Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the following an evaluation of its effectiveness during the Home Department how many police officers there were next five-year period. in (a) Dorset and (b) Bournemouth in each of the last Rape: Children five years. [318202]

Mr. Hanson [holding answer 24 February 2010]: The Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for available data are provided in the table. the Home Department on how many cases in which a person suspected of having raped a child was issued This and other related data are published annually as with a caution the decision to issue a caution was taken part of the annual Police Service Strength Home Office on grounds of the inability of the alleged victim to give Statistical Bulletin. The latest bulletin can be found at: evidence in the last five years; and if he will make a http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html statement. [317725] and bulletins for this and previous years are deposited in the Library of the House. Mr. Alan Campbell: The number of offenders cautioned Police officer strength in Bournemouth and Dorset, as at 31 March in England and Wales for rape of a person aged under 2005 to 2009, and September 2009 16 years, from 2004 to 2008 (latest available) can be Full-time equivalent1 viewed in the following table. Bournemouth Data for 2009 are expected to be published in the Bournemouth and Poole Dorset autumn, 2010. 20052 317 n/a 1,475 The Home Office does not hold information concerning 20062 319 n/a 1,512 the issuing of a caution for each individual case. 20072 315 n/a 1,526 A caution for rape of a child must be sanctioned by 20082 317 n/a 1,518 the CPS and should only be used by the police in the 20092 n/a 506 1,512 most exceptional circumstances. It is a function of the September n/a 3— 1,489 police to consider cautions and it is a statutory duty of 2009 a Crown Prosecutor to consider whether a prosecution 711W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 712W should proceed, taking into account the requirement Vetting for a reasonable prospect of conviction and the public interest in the particular prosecution in question. Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for the Number of offenders cautioned1,2 for rape of a person aged under Home Department pursuant to the answer of 1 February 16 years3, England and Wales 2004 to 20084 2010, Official Report, column 90W, on the Independent Number Safeguarding Authority, what estimate he has made of the number and proportion of people likely to be subject 2004 30 to Independent Safeguarding Authority registration in 2005 20 the first 12 months of its operation. [318319] 2006 13 2007 30 Meg Hillier: For the period July 2010 to 30 June 2011 2008 32 we currently forecast that approximately 1,770,000 1 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences individuals will apply to become ISA-registered through were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same the Criminal Records Bureau. This represents approximately time the principal offence is the more serious offence. 3 per cent. of the total population (56.2 million) of 2 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force England, Wales and Northern Ireland. nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and final warnings. These figures have been included in the totals. 3 Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force on 1 May 2004. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have Council Housing: Property Transfer been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for account when those data are used. Communities and Local Government which local Source: authorities (a) have transferred and (b) have plans to Justice Statistics Analytical Services - Ministry of Justice. transfer assets under the (i) Asset Transfer Fund and (Ref: IOS 073-10) (ii) Advancing Assets programme to date. [318537]

Tetra: Health Hazards Barbara Follett: With reference to the Asset Transfer Fund, I assume my hon. Friend is referring to the Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for the Community Assets Fund which is now known as the Home Department what representations he has received Community Assets Programme. The following table from organisations representing police officers on reports shows the local authorities that have been awarded of ill health among police officers assigned to duties funding through (i) the Community Assets Programme towards renovating assets for transfer; and (ii) those near Tetra masts. [318165] that have been supported through the Advancing Assets for Communities Demonstration Programme in each of Mr. Hanson: Since the rollout of Airwave radio in the three years since 2007 to enable them to advance 2001, the Government have funded research into the specific asset transfer projects. safety of Terrestrial Trunked Radio (TETRA) technology. None of the research to date has produced any evidence The Community Assets Programme is designated as that Airwave terminals or masts are harmful to the ‘CAP’ in the table and Advancing Assets for Communities health of police officers or the public. is designated as ‘AA’ followed by the year in which they were supported by the programme: The Police Federation of England and Wales and the Scottish Police Federation support the view that Airwave Local authority Programme TETRA radio is an effective communications tool that enhances officer safety. They maintain a strong interest Allerdale BC AAY2 and CAP in the short and long-term health effects of Airwave. Ashfield District Council AAY1 and CAP Barnsley MBC AAY2 and CAP Barrow in Furness Borough Council CAP Theft: Motor Vehicles Bedfordshire County Council CAP- Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council CAP Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Bradford MBC AAY2 and CAP the Home Department how many thefts of cars facilitated Brighton and Hove City Council AAY2 through the theft of car keys there have been in each Bristol City Council AAY3 and CAP London borough in each month of the last five years. Calderdale MBC AAY2 [315924] Charnwood Borough Council CAP Cheshire County Council AAY1 Mr. Alan Campbell: The requested information is not Chester City Council AAY2 available at borough level. Chester-Le Street District Council CAP Figures on this matter are collected on a quarterly City of Lincoln Council AAY3 basis at police force area level only in England and Coventry City Council AAY3 Wales. A national level summary of these data are Cumbria County Council AAY1 published in the annual Statistical Bulletin “Crime in Dacorum Borough Council AAY1 England and Wales”for 2007-08 and 2008-09 respectively; Derbyshire County Council CAP copies of which are available in the Library. Devon County Council AAY1 713W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 714W

Local authority Programme Local authority Programme

Erewash Borough Council AAY3 Torridge District Council AAY3 Forest Heath District Council AAY1 Tynedale District Council AAY1 Fylde Borough Council AAY3 Warrington Borough Council CAP Gateshead MBC AAY2 and CAP Warwick District Council AAY1 Halton Borough Council CAP West Lancashire District Council CAP Hampshire County Council CAP West Lindsey District Council AAY2 and CAP Hartlepool Borough Council CAP Wirral Council AAY2 Hastings Borough Council AAY1 and CAP Wolverhampton City Council AAY3 Herefordshire Council AAY2 and CAP Worcester City Council AAY2 Hertfordshire County Council CAP Worthing Borough Council CAP High Peak Borough Council AAY2 York (City of) Council CAP Hull City Council AAY2 Key: King’s Lynn and West Norfolk Borough AAY2 CAP = Community Assets Programme Council AAY1 = Advancing Assets 2007-08 AAY2 = Advancing Assets 2008-09 Kirklees MBC AAY1 AAY3 = Advancing Assets 2009-10 Lancashire County Council AAY3 LB Barking and Dagenham AAY2 and CAP Empty Property: Lancashire LB Bexley AAY2 LB Havering CAP LB Hillingdon CAP Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for LB Lambeth AAY1, AAY3 and CAP Communities and Local Government how many empty LB Lewisham AAY1 properties were brought back into housing stock by LB Southwark AAY2 and CAP West Lancashire borough council in (a) 2008 and (b) 2009. [318753] LB Tower Hamlets AAY1 and CAP LB Wandsworth CAP Leeds City Council AAY1 Mr. Ian Austin: Information on the number of empty Leicester City Council AAY2 properties that were brought back into housing stock in Liverpool City Council CAP 2008 and 2009 by West Lancashire borough council is London Borough of Camden AAY3 not held centrally. London Borough of Greenwich AAY3 London Borough of Islington AAY3 Fire Brigades Union Maidstone Borough Council AAY2 Newark and Sherwood District Council AAY2 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Newcastle Upon Tyne City Council AAY2 and CAP Communities and Local Government with reference to North Hertfordshire District Council AAY2 the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 22 October North Lincolnshire Council CAP 2009, Official Report, column 1643W,on the Fire Brigades North Norfolk District Council AAY3 Union, if he will place in the Library a copy of the North Tyneside District Council AAY1 minutes of each meeting referred to in the Answer. Northamptonshire County Council AAY2 [311528] Northumberland County Council AAY2 Nottingham City Council AAY1 Mr. Malik: It is not our practice to place internal Oxford City Council AAY2 notes of confidential meetings between Ministers and Peterborough City Council AAY1 other parties in the Library of the House. Plymouth City Council CAP Portsmouth City Council AAY2 Fire Services: Emergency Calls Restormel BC AAY1 Rochdale Metropolitan Borough Council AAY3 Rugby Borough Council AAY3 Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Salford City Council AAY3 Communities and Local Government with reference to Sandwell MBC AAY3 his Department’s publication entitled FiReControl Project: Sedgefield Borough Council CAP Equalities Impact Assessment, December 2009, what the reasons were for the time taken to undertake the Sedgemoor District Council AAY2 SMS emergency number project; and how much had Sheffield City Council AAY1 been spent on that project on the latest date for which South Gloucestershire District Council AAY2 figures are available. [317961] Southampton City Council AAY3 Staffordshire County Council AAY3 Mr. Malik: The SMS emergency number project is Staffordshire Moorlands District Council AAY3 managed and part funded by British Telecommunications Stockton Borough Council CAP plc, with additional funding from the mobile service Stoke-on-Trent City Council AAY2 and CAP providers. While the project is welcomed by the Government Swale Borough Council AAY3 and emergency services, information about the cost to Tameside MBC AAY3 BT is not available to CLG. It is not part of the Torbay Council AAY2 FiReControl Project. 715W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 716W

Housing: Equality Local Government: Bank Services

Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment Communities and Local Government (1) what assumptions he has made of the effect of the provisions of the affecting the next three years regarding write-off provisions Equality Bill on the operation of (a) the Tenants for local authority losses in Icelandic banks his Department Services Authority, (b) the Homes and Communities has made; [318281] Agency and (c) registered social landlords. [318162] (2) what provision his Department has made for losses incurred by local authorities through investment John Healey: Following Royal Assent, the Government in Icelandic banks. [318295] intend to add—by secondary legislation—a number of bodies to the list of public authorities in Schedule 19 to Barbara Follett: Investment decisions are a matter for the Equality Bill, including the Tenant Services Authority local authorities. It is for those local authorities which (TSA) and the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA), had investments in Icelandic banks to make provision thereby making them subject to the proposed public in their financial plans for estimated losses. sector equality duty. The TSA is currently consulting on a Single Equalities John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Scheme that takes account of the requirements under Communities and Local Government what estimate he the proposed Equality Bill. The consultation paper is has made of the extent of losses incurred by local available on the TSA’s website: authorities through investment in Icelandic banks. [318296] www.tenantservicesauthority.org/upload/doc/ Single_equalities_scheme.doc Barbara Follett: CLG has not made any such estimates. The HCA introduced a Single Equality Scheme in The Resolution Committee for Landsbanki and Glitnir November 2009 following extensive consultation. This and the UK administrators of Heritable and Kaupthing is available on the HCA’s website: Singer and Friedland Ltd., have published information http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/equality on likely rates of return. Local authorities are in direct Registered social landlords (RSLs) are not listed as contact with these administrators. public bodies in the Bill. The Government do not intend to add them through secondary legislation. New Deal for Communities It is for individual RSLs, as independent organisations, to ensure that they comply with all applicable legislation. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much funding Housing: Finance has been granted under the new deal for communities in each (a) local authority and (b) lower layer super output area in each year since 2000. [318266] Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much of the Ms Rosie Winterton: The grant for each NDC by £84 million for cavity wall insulation in the social sector local authority area is shown in the following tables. It announced in April has been spent in each region. is not possible to provide spend or budget information [307004] at lower super output area (LSOA) because NDC areas are composed of several LSOAs, and are also often not Mr. Ian Austin: The funds from the Social Housing consistent with LSOA boundaries. Allocations are, therefore, Energy Savings Programme are released in arrears after not able to be disaggregated to LSOA level. landlords have already made their expenditure. The Homes and Communities Agency monitor financial Total all NDCs output on a quarterly basis. The first schemes to start to £ invest under this programme began in quarter 3 of Spend 2009-10, the HCA do not yet have final output figures. NDC 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 A table of allocations by region split over the two years Birmingham — 3,054,814 3,783,947 7,628,331 10,681,208 of the programme follows. Bradford 877,016 5,004,267 8,096,186 8,612,566 10,148,297 Social housing energy savings programme Brent — 707,557 2,306,759 4,346,533 7,106,527 £ Brighton 1,289,700 3,714,670 6,806,066 7,610,470 8,938,785 Region Allocations in 2009-10 Allocations in 2010-11 Bristol 746,401 2,791,653 5,293,432 7,690,397 8,337,702 Coventry — 391,578 1,218,125 5,060,723 7,028,341 East 717,288 — Derby — 473,258 3,319,692 7,056,769 6,938,025 East Midlands 977,185 1,231,965 Doncaster — 538,531 2,466,909 4,020,587 5,457,889 East of England 680,634 615,811 Hackney 2,924,765 8,115,614 5,822,505 6,009,593 4,471,977 London 30,535,391 24,304,397 Hammersmith — 706,771 2,781,699 4,481,690 6,545,980 North East 651,625 200,655 and Fulham North West 3,049,696 2,505,473 Haringey — 1,875,618 4,714,787 8,887,609 6,855,000 South East 1,534,224 82,762 Hartlepool — 1,764,529 4,611,844 6,608,143 10,787,715 South west 467,906 85,381 Hull 1,145,584 5,507,438 8,044,630 10,573,968 15,251,841 West Midlands 1,123,200 — Islington — 456,011 1,591,354 3,619,843 5,104,604 Yorkshire and Humber 3,622,742 1,205,658 Knowsley — 409,922 3,478,639 4,852,870 6,443,415 Grand Total 43,359,891 30,232,102 Lambeth — 871,773 2,507,615 3,987,351 8,405,470 717W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 718W

Total all NDCs £ £ Spend Budget Spend NDC 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 NDC 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 Southwark 2,300,665 3,129,187 8,045,000 13,716,581 14,551,867 Leicester 794,000 2,369,365 4,206,653 8,759,411 11,043,377 Sunderland 4,001,222 7,302,000 8,495,000 9,201,000 6,148,000 Lewisham — 610,447 2,815,432 4,142,648 4,829,045 Tower 5,475,527 4,988,669 5,156,000 2,325,000 12,316,748 Liverpool 1,060,822 1,410,797 5,514,119 5,553,036 8,319,948 Hamlets Luton — — 5,843,539 3,705,412 4,593,903 Walsall 8,981,130 6,570,144 5,681,584 6,425,000 5,208,000 Manchester 4,517,002 6,595,067 8,312,353 17,169,048 3,873,624 Wolverhampton 5,480,033 7,050,938 8,212,467 9,200,000 7,800,000 Middlesbrough 1,724,009 3,673,519 6,042,402 7,586,561 8,828,214 Note: Funds granted to two NDCs in Birmingham—Kings Norton and Aston. Newcastle 659,947 2,761,860 4,891,826 8,063,602 8,383,350 Newham 1,417,369 5,864,945 7,298,652 8,846,517 11,849,125 Planning Permission Norwich 615,770 2,051,182 8,218,167 7,058,687 7,111,245 Nottingham 432,537 3,659,598 4,924,528 7,186,119 8,302,249 Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Oldham — 296,478 1,703,824 10,493,592 6,155,203 Communities and Local Government what recent Plymouth — 437,773 2,125,581 2,898,915 3,265,149 discussions he has had with (a) the Local Government Rochdale 218,650 860,798 5,374,676 6,006,212 5,222,646 Association and (b) representatives of local authorities Salford — 515,253 3,763,625 4,830,176 7,243,745 on the short-term erection of refrigeration tents in the Sandwell 1,863,591 3,757,164 4,791,949 7,304,721 5,536,404 pre-Christmas period and the enforcement of planning Sheffield — 730,755 2,924,157 5,655,717 8,666,269 requirements; what recent representations he has received Southampton — 681,474 1,849,953 3,831,104 4,096,800 on this matter; and if he will take steps to prevent the Southwark 393,910 1,395,064 3,791,595 3,925,648 4,814,389 erection of such tents without planning consent. Sunderland 123,847 526,951 3,849,191 3,849,191 5,554,562 [318754] Tower 1,437,751 2,483,057 5,293,028 6,364,966 5,583,320 Hamlets Mr. Ian Austin: I have not had any discussions with Walsall — 610,561 3,785,574 3,023,839 10,246,772 the Local Government Association or with representatives Wolverhampton — 215,660 1,628,049 3,310,375 4,455,965 of local authorities, nor have I received representations regarding planning requirements for temporary refrigeration £ tents. In the first instance it is for local planning authorities Spend Budget to determine whether such temporary structures constitute NDC 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 development and whether, therefore, would require planning permission. Birmingham 11,056,266 10,942,262 11,306,167 16,467,000 21,862,451 Bradford 9,610,665 6,272,498 3,676,000 1,013,000 40,000 Social Rented Housing Brent 8,086,377 5,921,783 7,660,000 6,400,000 3,748,000 Brighton 7,774,012 6,296,699 3,684,973 1,147,000 73,000 Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for Bristol 7,598,855 7,730,343 6,698,000 3,043,000 1,360,587 Communities and Local Government how many Coventry 7,256,158 7,350,415 10,300,000 8,500,000 4,022,000 contracts the (a) Homes and Communities and (b) Derby 7,248,951 5,679,750 5,701,092 2,050,000 1,006,000 Tenant Services Agency has let to (i) social enterprises Doncaster 4,673,373 5,702,411 7,109,517 9,146,000 8,878,000 and (ii) registered social landlords since each agency Hackney 7,973,141 5,901,841 8,743,814 7,079,934 3,861,856 was established. [318528] Hammersmith 7,689,383 6,371,395 6,199,459 4,459,000 3,725,335 and Fulham Haringey 8,955,388 6,552,986 6,427,324 3,710,000 1,557,000 John Healey: The HCA has three-year framework Hartlepool 10,829,298 5,840,220 5,780,674 4,033,000 2,700,000 delivery contracts in place with 187 RSL investment Hull 6,741,508 5,470,953 3,940,000 1,105,566 1,493,220 partners for the 2008-11 spending review period, transferred from the HCA’s predecessor body the Housing Corporation. Islington 6,656,029 6,784,000 7,352,213 6,942,000 6,777,000 The HCA also have three contracts with RSLs and one Knowsley 6,554,737 9,240,623 8,183,858 11,566,000 3,934,000 with a social enterprise through the Places of Change Lambeth 8,779,799 12,625,802 10,123,271 7,870,000 1,768,701 programme. Leicester 7,247,249 6,056,865 5,699,788 3,529,000 2,079,112 The Tenants Services Authority has let two contracts Lewisham 7,540,555 7,301,494 8,429,260 4,117,507 3,280,939 to small and medium enterprises. Liverpool 8,513,718 8,083,605 7,158,053 10,050,000 6,086,000 Luton 5,433,480 4,820,325 7,357,004 4,560,000 7,024,221 Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for Manchester 1,675,349 2,744,619 2,295,879 2,304,000 2,195,000 Communities and Local Government how many registered Middlesbrough 10,034,779 6,412,280 4,256,000 2,484,000 1,050,000 social landlords operate local labour (a) schemes and Newcastle 6,946,580 6,019,507 6,245,220 4,580,000 6,388,522 (b) clauses in contracts let. [318529] Newham 8,655,410 2,546,927 4,130,000 3,141,000 1,650,452 Norwich 5,711,146 2,419,000 950,000 2,170,000 254,890 John Healey: This information is not held centrally Nottingham 7,617,140 7,741,459 6,229,905 8,917,000 3,295,095 and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Oldham 6,806,589 8,016,812 7,231,929 7,116,000 3,209,000 In order to obtain Social Housing Grant from the Plymouth 5,166,622 5,483,228 8,892,246 9,049,000 7,621,000 Homes and Communities Agency (HCA), registered Rochdale 5,989,241 6,982,065 4,801,411 6,282,000 7,452,000 social landlords (RSLs) are required to sign up to the Salford 6,998,762 7,118,943 6,532,371 6,990,000 5,507,000 principles of the 2012 Construction Commitments. Full Sandwell 9,042,114 6,690,337 4,879,095 6,776,000 5,317,000 details of these commitments are available at: Sheffield 8,644,867 11,533,519 10,226,661 4,964,880 431,700 http://www.housingcorp.gov.uk/upload/pdf/ Southampton 6,949,470 7,431,365 8,697,646 7,362,000 3,051,206 2012_construction_commitments_agreement.pdf 719W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 720W

The HCA’s Single Conversation process reflects the Sustainable Development importance of supporting local economic development and employment through investment. The Single Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for Conversation guidance emphasises the need for Local Communities and Local Government what criteria have Investment Plans to address poverty and socio-economic been established for the creation of carbon-efficient inequalities through strategies for employment protection towns and cities. [318509] and creation and by providing training and apprenticeships. HCA reports that 1,107 apprenticeships have been created John Healey: Towns and cities can play a big role in through RSL partnerships. tackling climate change. Many local authorities in towns The Single Conversation guidance is available on the and cities have set themselves targets to reduce emissions HCA’s website: in response to National Indicator 186. We have set out http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/public/documents/ our expectation of how planning authorities in towns SC_LIP_Further_information.pdf and cities can plan new development to ensure carbon emissions are reduced in our Climate Change Planning Policy Statement (PPS) and we will shortly be consulting Sustainable Communities Act 2007 on a revision to the PPS. As part of the Eco-towns Programme we have set out sustainability standards for eco towns in our eco towns PPS. These include the Mr. Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for requirement that the developments as a whole must be Communities and Local Government what progress his zero-carbon. We are working with nine groups of local Department has made in its consideration of the proposal authorities and individual local authorities to pilot the made by Westminster city council under the Sustainable concept of local carbon frameworks, a new approach Communities Act 2007 on temporary accommodation for local authorities to set themselves ambitious targets targets; and if he will make a statement. [318451] and plans for reducing carbon emissions.

Barbara Follett: The Government are consulting the Travelling People: Caravan Sites Local Government Association (LGA) in its role as selector under the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for and are seeking to reach agreement on which of the 199 Communities and Local Government with reference to short-listed proposals, including that submitted by the oral answer by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Westminster city council, should be implemented. Many of State of 14 July 2009, Official Report, column 69WH, of the proposals are complex and raise significant practical on Travellers, what his Department’s definition of (a) issues but the Government are anxious to make progress fairness and (b) equality is in relation to planning as quickly as possible on those proposals that offer applications for sites for Gypsy and Traveller caravans. practical benefits and new ways of meeting local needs. [317605] A series of official-level meetings took place in January between the LGA and Government Departments to Mr. Malik: Fairness and equality, in relation for the consider the proposals, and further work is now under planning applications for Gypsy and Traveller sites, way to follow up the issues raised in those discussions. means that the law is applied equally to Gypsies and Travellers and to those of the settled community; any proposal for development must be considered purely on Mr. Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for its planning merits taking account of all relevant planning Communities and Local Government what (a) funding matters. and (b) guidance his Department has provided to local authorities that have made proposals that have been Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for shortlisted for consideration under the Sustainable Communities and Local Government what guidance Communities Act 2007; and if he will make a statement. (a) his Department and (b) the Planning Inspectorate [318452] has issued on the length of time a (i) traveller and (ii) demonstration encampment may be in place before it is Barbara Follett: No funding has been provided to deemed permanent for planning purposes; and how local authorities that have made proposals under the long temporary encampments may be in place before Sustainable Communities Act 2007. becoming rateable for (A) council tax and (B) business On 9 July 2008 statutory guidance on submitting rate purposes. [317805] proposals was published as part of the Statutory Guidance on the Local Government and Public Involvement in Mr. Malik: The Planning Inspectorate has issued Health Act 2007—“Creating Strong, Safe and Prosperous guidance on the length of time a (i) Traveller or (ii) a Communities”. demonstration encampment may be in place before it is deemed permanent or authorised. The guidance issued On 14 October 2008 the Secretary of State issued an by the Planning Inspectorate is in the form of the invitation to local authorities to submit proposals. At Inspectors Handbook, which covers professional planning the same time, the Department wrote to all local authorities matters dealt with by Inspectors. Annex E of ODPM giving an indication of the likely approach of Government Planning Circular 01/2006 ‘Planning for Gypsy and to decisions on short-listed proposals. Traveller sites’ states that planning permission may not These documents are available on the Department’s be required for any development if the use of the land website at: has been established over a period of time without valid http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/about/ planning enforcement action have been taken by the sustainablecommunitiesact local authority. 721W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 722W

No guidance has been issued by the Department for (HSE) Asbestos Management in Schools survey; how Communities and Local Government or the Planning many visits by the HSE to local education authorities Inspectorate on the length of time a temporary encampment have been made following the survey; and when she may be in place before becoming rateable for council estimates the HSE follow-up work will be completed. tax or business rates. No minimum period is defined by [318515] statute. It is established rating law that a transitory occupation of land does not amount to rateable occupation. Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 24 February 2010]: Whether the necessary permanence of occupation has HSE inspectors are in the process of visiting the local been established for liability to arise will depend on the authorities which were identified through the questionnaire facts in each case. survey, that is, those local authorities which did not A Traveller1 or demonstration2 encampment can become provide sufficient information to demonstrate the adequacy permanent, and authorised, for planning purposes through of their arrangements for properly managing asbestos the express grant of planning permission for such a use, in system-built schools. In total 45 LAs have been unencumbered by a condition limiting its use to a identified for visit and to date 14 of these have been specified period, or by the imposition or removal of an visited with three further visits scheduled. The remaining appropriate condition attached to an existing planning visits are scheduled for completion during March and permission by the formal process set out in s.73 and April. 73 A of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. The Besides any specific actions required at the time of only other means by which a use of land can become visits by inspectors in individual cases, an overall assessment lawful is where it continues, uninterrupted and in essentially of the collective findings will rapidly be made by HSE, the same form, for a period of 10 years and the evidence and the findings shared with others to ensure that exists to prove that this has occurred, on the balance of necessary remedial actions are taken. probabilities, such that a Certificate of Lawful Development It is essential that all schools have arrangements in under s.191 of the Town and Country Planning Act place to actively and competently manage asbestos 1990 can be granted. In a similar way a use can become whenever it is present. HSE will continue to work with immune from enforcement action under S.171B of the the local authorities, DCSF and schools to ensure that 1990 Act after a period of 10 years, if a local planning schools both understand their legal responsibilities and authority has not taken enforcement action before that act on them. time. 1 Assumed to mean the occupation of a site by Travellers for Children: Maintenance residential purposes. 2 Assumed to mean an unauthorised use of land for demonstration purposes. John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many of the cases under consideration Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for by the Child Support Agency involve absent parents in Communities and Local Government whether unmet (a) Scotland and (b) Glasgow East constituency. need for traveller sites is a material consideration in the [317055] planning process when considering a retrospective application of the development of an unauthorised Helen Goodman: The Child Maintenance and traveller site. [317879] Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child Mr. Malik: ODPM Circular 2001-06 Planning for maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Gypsy and Traveller Caravan Sites confirms that unmet Commissioner to write to the hon. Member with the need for Gypsy and Traveller sites is one of several information requested and I have seen the response. material considerations which decision makers should take into account when determining planning applications. Cold Weather Payments: Tamworth The material considerations relevant to a retrospective application for the development are no different for Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work those submitted prospectively. and Pensions how many pensioners in Tamworth constituency have received cold weather payments in 2009-10. [311775] WORK AND PENSIONS A4e: Employment Helen Goodman: The number of pensioner benefit units in Tamworth constituency who have received cold Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for weather payments in 2009-10 is estimated to be around Work and Pensions how many and what percentage of 4,000. people who have attended A4e meetings have found work within six months of the inception of the A4e As well as pensioners, a range of other groups are contract in (a) England, (b) the East of England, (c) also eligible for cold weather payments. People eligible Bedfordshire and (d) Mid Bedfordshire constituency. are those awarded: [317539] pension credit, or income-related employment and support allowance that includes Jim Knight: The information is not available in the a work-related activity or support component. format requested. Those awarded: Asbestos: Schools income support, or Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work income-based jobseeker’s allowance, or and Pensions what assessment she has made of the income-related employment and support allowance in the follow-up work to the Health and Safety Executive’s assessment phase, 723W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 724W and who have: Departmental Contracts a pensioner premium, or a disability premium, or Mr. Leech: To ask the Secretary of State for Work a child who is disabled, or and Pensions how many jobs formerly undertaken by a child under the age of five, staff of her Department have been outsourced to external are also eligible to receive payments. companies in each of the last five years; and to which companies. [314632] Notes: 1. A benefit unit consists of a single person or a couple. The Jonathan Shaw: My Department has entered into the number of individual pensioners who have been helped by cold weather payments is greater than 4,000, because both members of following contracts with external suppliers in the last a couple benefit unit have gained from the payment. five years which have resulted in staff contracts being 2. The figure has been rounded to the nearest 1,000. transferred to suppliers: Sources: Analysis of 5 per cent. sample data for pension credit, 63 staff under the Record Storage contract awarded to Capita income support (for recipients with a pensioner premium), jobseeker’s in March 2004; allowance (for recipients with a pensioner premium) and the 610 staff under the Review of Office Services contract awarded Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study (100 per cent. data), all to Haden in September 2006; for May 2009, and DWP records of cold weather payment 15 staff under the Print and Associated Services contract triggers. awarded to iON in February 2007.

Council Tax Benefits: Kingston Departmental Disclosure of Information

Mr. Davey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many pensioners in (a) the Royal and Pensions whether (a) agencies and (b) non- Borough of Kingston and (b) Kingston and Surbiton departmental public bodies for which her Department constituency have been in receipt of council tax benefit is responsible sell information on a commercial basis to in each of the last three years. [318041] (i) companies or individuals in the private sector and (ii) other organisations. [313231] Helen Goodman: The available information is in the tables. Statistics on council tax benefit recipients are Jim Knight: Government Departments and agencies derived from the single housing benefit extract (SHBE), and non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) that have which is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level Crown status, make most of their non-personal information data direct from local authority computer systems, and available for free re-use under the PSI Click-Use Licence which replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. to other public bodies, commercial organisations and Geographic breakdowns are available at regional and individuals. local authority level, but have not yet been developed for smaller geographical areas such as parliamentary The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) does constituencies. not charge for the provision of such information. DWP currently publish a range of such information in official Number of families where at least one person is aged 60 or over publications, such as research reports and statistical receiving council tax benefit in The Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames: August 2007 publications, via the internet, which are available free of charge. Prior to internet dissemination of such publications, Number these were only available as paper copies for which a August 2007 3,170 nominal charge was made to cover costs. Paper copies Notes: of statistical publications are no longer available to 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a purchase as they are available to download free of couple. charge; some paper copies of research reports are still 2. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Council Tax benefit totals exclude any second adult rebate cases. held in the Department and are made available to the Source: public free of charge if requested. Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Management Information In general, most of DWP’s NDPBs do not sell such System Quarterly 100 per cent. caseload stock-count taken in August 2007. information on a commercial basis. However, there are Number of families where at least one person is aged 60 or over two instances where a charge may be levied by the receiving council tax benefit in The Royal Borough of Kingston upon non-departmental public bodies for the provision of Thames: November 2008-09 information: Number In support of the Health and Safety Executive’s (HSE’s) Strategy launched in June 2009, and to demonstrate HSE’s commitment to November 2008 3,300 provide real help to small business, from 1 September 2009, HSE November 2009 3,390 made the range of its publications freely available on HSE’s Notes website to download, view and print. There is an option to 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a purchase a professionally printed version should the company or couple. individual require. These publications provide guidance to those 2. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. responsible on either practical application or best practice in 3. Council Tax Benefit figures exclude any Single Adult Rebate cases. complying with the legal requirements under the Health and 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The data is available monthly from November 2008 The Pensions Advisory Service (TPAS) have the facility to and November 2009 is the most recent available. charge employers to cover the printing costs of TPAS leaflets Source: where a large number have been requested. This has not been used Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) in, at least, the last five years. 725W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 726W

DWP is also custodian of a large amount of personal In order to provide a view on the trend the turnover information. DWP takes its duty of confidentiality to rates at 30 September 2008 were: all its customers extremely seriously and complies with the provisions of the Data Protection At 1998. The Percentage Department does not provide its customers’ personal information to any third party for commercial gain. DWP 5.79 Jobcentre Plus 5.28 Departmental ICT

Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Departmental Sick Leave Pensions how many times the Labour Market System has been unavailable in the last 24 months; and for how David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for long that system was unavailable on each occasion. Work and Pensions how many staff in her Department [317626] have had five or more periods of sickness absence of less than five days in two or more of the last three Jim Knight: The Labour Market System was unavailable years. [316452] on five occasions in the last 24 months. These are as follows: Jonathan Shaw: The number of staff currently recorded 10 September 2008: 1 hour on the Department’s personnel computer system as 7 January 2009: 44 minutes having had five or more periods of sickness absence of 30 April 2009: 2 hours 10 minutes less than five days in two or more of the last three years is 2,699. DWP currently employs more than 120,000 16 December 2009: 1 hour 13 minutes full and part-time staff. 8 January 2010: 2 hours 56 minutes. The average number of working days lost per year in Departmental Manpower the Department through sickness has fallen from 10.3 in December 2007 to 8.4 in January 2010, the latest date for which figures are available. Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what the staff turnover rate in her Department was in 2009; [317163] Future Jobs Fund (2) what the staff turnover rate in Jobcentre Plus was in 2009. [317164] Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Jonathan Shaw: The Department and its agencies Work and Pensions (1) how many people have obtained calculate turnover on a rolling 12-month basis and the jobs through the Future Jobs Fund with the social following rates are based on average staffing and the enterprise Real Baby Milk since the inception of the number of turnover leavers. Fund; [315669] The turnover rates as at 30 September 2009 are (2) how many placements for young people have been shown in the table. made in the (a) public, (b) private and (c) voluntary sector through the Future Jobs Fund since its inception; Percentage [316367] (3) how many apprenticeship places have been Department for Work and Pensions 4.11 and agencies delivered through the Future Jobs Fund in each region [316368] Jobcentre Plus 4.08 since its inception. The percentage turnover rate is calculated by dividing Jim Knight: Information on Future Jobs Fund starts the number of permanent staff (includes staff on fixed and apprenticeship places delivered through the Future term appointments exceeding 12 months) who leave in Jobs Fund is not currently available but will be made the relevant 12-month period, by the average number of available from spring 2010 through an official statistical permanent staff employed in the same period. release that is planned to cover the whole of the Young Turnover is calculated in line with a “wastage index” Person’s Guarantee. method which is a recognised methodology. This is normal practice for the Department’s employment The following broad categories of leavers are included programmes and it allows time for the information to in the calculation: be collected, understood, verified and reported. Retirements Death in service Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 2 February Dismissals and discharge 2010 to the hon. Member for South Dorset, Official Resignation Report, column 258W, on the Future Jobs Fund, how Transfers to other Government Departments and non civil many of the jobs announced to date, excluding those service public sector. created under national bids will be created in each local The calculation excludes: authority area. [317645] staff transferring as a result of movement of work. e.g. machinery of government changes; Jim Knight: The information requested is not collated staff leaving as a result of voluntary early release schemes, and; centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate temporary staff leaving. cost. 727W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 728W

Housing Benefit Housing benefit recipients, by region: November 2008 to October 2009 Government Office November January April July October Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Region 2008 2009 2009 2009 2009 and Pensions how many housing benefit recipients there were in each region in each of the last 12 quarters. North 532,480 537,470 551,560 566,100 576,190 West [316799] Yo rk s a n d 361,170 371,400 378,740 386,040 394,440 the Helen Goodman: Housing benefit has played a key Humber role in helping people deal with the impact of the East 260,730 265,490 278,640 284,780 292,130 recession and will play an equally important part in Midlands helping people return to work as the economy improves. West 385,700 393,910 407,860 417,630 425,400 The available information is in the following tables. Midlands East 318,210 323,760 336,860 345,100 352,760 Housing benefit recipients, by region: February 2006 to November London 712,010 719,900 735,350 753,870 769,430 2006 South 439,430 450,690 467,800 478,000 489,710 Government East Office February August November Region 2006 May 2006 2006 2006 South 299,860 310,600 323,480 330,320 337,360 West North East 226,800 227,500 228,300 227,000 Wales 210,820 213,930 220,710 225,030 228,380 North West 520,200 512,900 516,100 518,400 Scotland 419,100 428,370 440,250 446,120 454,530 Yo rk s a n d 349,000 343,500 345,800 350,500 Notes: the 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a Humber couple. East 239,900 243,300 244,900 246,000 2. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Midlands 3. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. 4. The Department modernised the way it collected HB and CTB West 360,000 363,200 366,800 364,300 from local authorities to make the process more efficient. The new Midlands data source, the Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) is a East 292,400 293,500 297,100 297,800 monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local London 691,200 685,600 689,700 694,300 authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical South East 404,100 407,000 412,700 413,800 returns. 5. The data is available monthly from November 2008 and October South West 280,300 281,500 288,800 284,800 2009 is the most recent available. Wales 200,400 200,900 201,900 200,600 6. Data from SHBE incorporates the local authority changes from 1 Scotland 434,100 318,500 432,200 431,200 April 2009. 7. Data is published at: Housing benefit recipients, by region: February 2007 to August 2007 http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ Government HBCTB_release_JAN10.xls Office Source: Region February 2007 May 2007 August 2007 Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) North East 228,600 226,800 227,400 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work North West 520,300 518,400 518,600 and Pensions how many (a) people and (b) households Yorks and the 350,900 351,000 349,500 received local housing allowance in each of the last Humber eight quarters. [316800] East 246,700 242,700 244,900 Midlands Helen Goodman: The local housing allowance West 369,400 368,100 369,600 Midlands arrangements were rolled out from 7 April 2008 and apply to customers in the deregulated private rented sector East 300,800 300,100 302,100 who make a new claim for housing benefit or to existing London 692,600 693,500 698,300 customers who change address. Of the 1.34 million South East 414,400 414,600 416,400 housing benefit customers who live in private rented South West 285,600 286,400 286,200 sector accommodation 0.90 million (70 per cent.) have Wales 201,300 200,400 200,700 had their benefit assessed according to the local housing Scotland 429,300 429,800 427,300 allowance rules. Notes: 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a Information is not available in relation to households. couple. The most recent available information is in the table. 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. 3. Figures for any non-responding authorities have been estimated. Housing benefit recipients—local housing allowance tenants: Great 4. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. Britain, November 2008 to October 2009 5. Data is published at: Month LHA tenants http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/hb_ctb_aug07.xls Source: 2008 Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Management Information November 408,380 System Quarterly 100 per cent. taken in February 2006—August 2007 December 459,190 Housing benefit recipients, by region: November 2008 to October 2009 Government Office November January April July October 2009 Region 2008 2009 2009 2009 2009 January 499,450 North 232,450 236,740 240,820 244,260 248,400 February 554,180 East March 604,510 729W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 730W

Housing benefit recipients—local housing allowance tenants: Great Jobcentre Plus Britain, November 2008 to October 2009 Month LHA tenants Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work April 651,800 and Pensions what outreach work is undertaken by May 688,170 Jobcentre Plus; and what plans she has for the future of June 727,780 such work. [313078] July 758,280 August 782,950 Jonathan Shaw: The administration of Jobcentre Plus September 815,970 is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, October 850,310 Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Notes: Member with the information requested. 1. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. Letter from Darra Singh: 2. Local housing allowance tenants may include a small number of The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question non-LHA cases making a new claim since 7 April 2008. This will include recipients in caravan accommodation. asking what outreach work is undertaken by Jobcentre Plus, and 3. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. what plans she has for the future of such work. This is something 4. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief couple. Executive of Jobcentre Plus. 5. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct Jobcentre Plus has locations across the country providing from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate outreach services which meet the needs of customers and communities, clerical returns. The data are available monthly from November 2008 reaching the most disadvantaged and vulnerable in society. These and October 2009 are the most recent available. outreach services complement our core services delivered through 6. Data are published on table 4 at other channels. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ HBCTB_release_JAN10.xls There are various outreach schemes that Jobcentre Plus operates. 7. Details on the number of LHA tenants are not available prior to Among them are: District Community Outreach, which provides the introduction of SHBE. ease of access to advice and support within the local community; Source: Prison Outreach which provides specific support to prisoners as Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE). part of their preparation for release by offering both benefit and job broking advice; and School Gates which is a support initiative Housing Benefit: Scotland to increase the amount of employment and enterprise support provided to parents in and around their child’s school. Mr. Tom Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition there is a small team of advisers working directly in Work and Pensions whether her Department takes community locations in three Jobcentre Plus Districts—Merseyside, steps to check whether the landlords of housing benefit South London, and South Tyne and Wear Valley. Their objective recipients in Scotland are properly registered with local is to work with partners locally, in particular with social housing authorities. [318071] providers, to engage with residents, challenge attitudes to worklessness and offer a holistic service to address the barriers that prevent individuals or households from finding work. Helen Goodman: No. It is for local authorities in Scotland to ensure landlords are properly registered Recognising this early success we announced in the White Paper an extension to this approach. Therefore, we will be funding under guidance from the Scottish Executive. 11 new teams in addition to the original three, from April 2010. All private landlords in Scotland must be registered For the future, I see outreach being a continued way of (or have applied for registration) with the local authorities delivering our services. We will continue to work with partners at where they let private property. Once an application has a local level to establish new and innovative ways of sharing been submitted it is assessed by the relevant local authority premises, facilitate the provision of more cohesive local services, who determines whether the landlord is fit and proper. promote our services to a wider customer base and potentially There are a number of sanctions available to local reduce overall Government estate costs. authorities if a landlord fails to register, or continues to I hope this information is helpful. let property after being refused registration. The sanctions include reporting the case to the Procurator Fiscal for Jobcentre Plus: Disclosure of Information prosecution. However, the most popular and successful sanction so far has been the rent penalty notice (RPN). Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work If a local authority serves such a notice, it suspends the and Pensions how many complaints have been made to tenant’s liability to pay rent for the period of the notice. Jobcentre Plus managers by whistleblowers in each of If an RPN is used, the tenant is notified to stop paying the last five years; and if she will make a statement. rent and, if housing benefit is in payment, the local [316616] housing benefit office is informed that an RPN is in place and that housing benefit should not be paid for Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a the period of the notice. matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra Immobilisation of Vehicles Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member with the information requested. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much her Department and its Jobcentre Plus: Termination of Employment predecessors have paid in vehicle clamping charges incurred on (a) privately-owned and (b) publicly- Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work owned land in each of the last 10 years; and if she will and Pensions how many and what proportion of Jobcentre make a statement. [302738] Plus staff have had their contracts terminated for each reason of termination in each of the last five years; and Jim Knight: The information requested is not available. if she will make a statement. [316601] 731W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 732W

Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a Annex matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra Number of Percentage of Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member Reason leavers headcount with the information requested. April 2009-September 2009 Letter from Darra Singh: Early Retirement 157 0.1 The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Voluntary Early Release 91 0.1 asking how many and what proportion of Jobcentre Plus staff Deceased 85 0.1 have had their contracts terminated for each reason of termination Dismissed 806 0.9 in each of the last five years. This is something that falls within End of temporary, Fixed Term, 730 0.8 the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive of Jobcentre or provisional appointment Plus. Ill Health retirement 118 0.1 The tables in the attached annex contain the numbers and Other 80 0.1 proportions of staff who have had their contracts terminated, as Resignation 2,187 2.4 well as termination reason. The information covering proportions sets out staff as a percentage of the average number of people in Retirement 673 0.7 the organisation in each of the years in question. Transfer 210 0.2 Total 5,137 5.5 Information has been provided from April 2006 which is the earliest available data. Source: Dataview IT System I hope this is helpful. Jobcentre Plus: Training Annex Number of Percentage of Reason leavers headcount Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what equality training is (a) compulsory April 2006-March 2007 and (b) made voluntarily available for Jobcentre Plus Early Retirement 343 0.5 employees; and if she will make a statement. [316595] Voluntary Early Release 1,678 2.2 Deceased 101 0.1 Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a Dismissed 687 0.9 matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra End of temporary, Fixed Term, 2,410 3.2 Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member or provisional appointment with the information requested. Ill Health retirement 121 0.2 Letter from Darra Singh: Other 1 0.0 The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Resignation 3,557 4.7 asking what equality training is (a) compulsory and (b) made Retirement 848 1.1 voluntarily available for Jobcentre Plus employees. This is something Transfer 861 1.1 that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Total 10,607 14.0 Executive of Jobcentre Plus. All new starters to Jobcentre Plus are required to work through the compulsory Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) April 2007-March 2008 Induction Programme. The programme sets out the actions that Early Retirement 174 0.2 should be taken to successfully induct and settle new staff into Voluntary Early Release 1,348 1.8 DWP, including sections on Diversity and Equality. To facilitate Deceased 111 0.1 this programme, support is provided to line managers and staff Dismissed 253 0.3 via a checklist, which has been produced to provide clear guidance on the process, what needs to be done and by when. End of temporary, Fixed Term, 1,063 1.4 or provisional appointment Jobcentre Plus has in place a comprehensive foundation learning Ill Health retirement 28 0.0 programme in which Diversity and Equality feature within two key products. The first is the 12 hour Diversity and Equality Other 684 0.9 Awareness for Excellent Customer Service workbook. The workbook Resignation 3,076 4.1 is designed to highlight Jobcentre Plus’ commitment to supporting Retirement 699 0.9 Diversity and Equality in all that we do within our business. It Transfer 411 0.6 provides an introduction to the diversity of Jobcentre Plus customers, Total 7,847 10.6 and as the learner works through they are sign posted to the DWP Diversity and Equality site where they are expected to gather information in order to successfully answer questions and exercises April 2008-March 2009 covered within the workbook. Early Retirement 148 0.2 On completing the workbook learners undertake the Core Key Voluntary Early Release 257 0.3 Skills for Excellent Customer Service training event. The event Deceased 77 0.1 provides learners with the understanding, skills and knowledge required to provide excellent and accessible customer services to Dismissed 752 1.0 all Jobcentre Plus customers. The event reinforces and builds on End of temporary, Fixed Term, 824 1.1 the knowledge gained from undertaking the workbook and provides or provisional appointment coverage on: Equal Opportunity, Values & Beliefs, Customer Ill Health retirement 91 0.1 Groups, Cultural Awareness and Diversity and Equality. Other 81 0.1 Dependant on their job role and the staff’s interaction with the Resignation 2,288 3.0 customer within Jobcentre Plus, an additional training event is Retirement 699 0.9 delivered. Transfer 185 0.2 Further training events available to Jobcentre Plus staff include: Total 5,402 7.0 Age; Disability; 733W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 734W

Equal Opportunities; £ Gender; Race; Year 1 2005-06 9,468,024 Religion or Belief; Year 2 2006-07 10,418,332 Sexual orientation; and Year 3 2007-08 9,783,920 Year 4 2008-09 4,118,532 Work Life Balance. Year 5 2009-10 6,776,192 I hope this information is helpful. Total 40,565,000 Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what cultural awareness training is (a) Through flexible new deal Maximus provides tailored compulsory and (b) made voluntarily available for and personalised support for customers who have been Jobcentre Plus employees; and if she will make a statement. unemployed for 12 months with the aim of helping [316596] them into work. Through the other welfare to work programmes Maximus supports disabled people and Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a customer groups that are furthest from the job market, matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra such as those with social or drug issues. Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member with the information requested. Mortgages: Government Assistance Letter from Darra Singh: The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work asking what cultural awareness training is (a) compulsory and (b) and Pensions what the average monthly payment to made voluntarily available for Jobcentre Plus employees. This is recipients under the Support for Mortgage Interest something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. Scheme was in each of the last (a) three years and (b) six months. [316801] Cultural awareness is included as part of our compulsory Diversity and Equality learning for all our people. For example a three day facilitated event covering Excellent Customer Service Helen Goodman: Financial support is provided through includes coverage on Cultural Awareness. benefit assistance towards payments of mortgage interest In addition to mandatory learning on Diversity and Equality to homeowners who run into unforeseen difficulties. we offer the following cultural awareness training for our people: Help is provided towards the interest on mortgages—known Race Relations Overview Workshop; as Support for Mortgage Interest (SMI) as part of Race and Understanding Workshop; income support (IS), income-based jobseeker’s allowance (JSA(IB)), and income-related employment and support Understanding Stereotyping Workshop; allowance (ESA(IR)) and state pension credit (PC) About Me Workshop; The information is not available in the format requested; Culture Confidence Workshop; and the available information is in the table. A Class Divided Workshop Average weekly amount of support with mortgage interest payments Line Managers will recommend this training for people who made to income support (IS); jobseekers allowance (income-based) would benefit from this additional learning to support them in (JSA(IB)); or pension credit (PC) claimants in Great Britain. their job role. £ I hope this is helpful. IS JSA(IB) PC

May 2007 46.88 47.47 27.98 Maximus Employment and Training August 2007 50.89 51.50 30.56 February 2008 51.11 52.71 30.33 Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work May 2008 48.75 50.08 29.93 and Pensions what remit her Department has assigned August 2008 49.30 51.11 29.08 to Maximus Employment and Training UK in November 2008 46.60 53.67 27.67 Eastleigh; and what payments have been made from the February 2009 63.39 61.31 37.31 Exchequer to this organisation. [316526] May 2009 51.06 75.49 29.39 Notes: Jim Knight: Maximus Employment and Training UK 1. Average weekly amounts are based on a 5 per cent. sample and are therefore subject to a degree of sampling variation. delivers Progress 2 Work provision in Eastleigh on 2. Data are collected quarterly therefore monthly figures are not behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions. In available. The quarter November 2007 is not available. addition to Progress 2 Work, Maximus also delivers the 3. Residual minimum income guarantee (MIG) cases are included in following provision: the IS figures. These are mainly cases where the claimant is aged under 60 and the partner over 60. Flexible new deal (Kent, Surrey and Sussex) 4. JSA(IB) figures include claimants in receipt of income-based JSA Workprep (South West) who would also be entitled to the contributory JSA element. 5. Average amounts can include other housing costs, for example Workstep (Dorset and Somerset) ground rent. Link Up (West of England), and 6. The DWP reformed Income Support for Mortgage Interest (SMI) by shortening the waiting period before SMI is paid from 39 weeks In work support (Dorset and Somerset) to 13 weeks for new working age claims. This came into effect from The following table shows the payments made to 5 January 2009. Maximus covering all the programmes they deliver across Source: the UK. DWP Information Directorate, 5 per cent. samples 735W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 736W

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Mortgage Interest Direct (MID) Scheme was and Pensions what proportion of monies paid under introduced in May 1992 in consultation with the Council the Support for Mortgage Interest Scheme was paid of Mortgage Lenders. The scheme ensures Support for directly to (a) mortgage lenders and (b) households in Mortgage Interest is paid direct to the lender. Membership each of the last three years. [316803] of the scheme is voluntary, but the majority of the major lending institutions are members of the scheme. Helen Goodman: Financial support is provided through Mortgage lenders who are not members of the MID benefit assistance towards payments of mortgage interest Scheme do not have payments made direct to them. to homeowners who run into unforeseen difficulties. Instead customers receive housing cost payments in Help is provided towards the interest on mortgages—known their benefit, and are responsible for maintaining their as Support for Mortgage Interest (SMI) as part of lending arrangement and forwarding these payments to Income Support (IS), income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance the lender. (JSA (IB)), and income-related Employment and Support Allowance (ESA (IR) and State Pension Credit (SPC). The available information is in the following table.

Income support (IS), jobseeker’s allowance (income-based JSA) and pension credit (PC) claimants who receive support with mortgage interest (SMI) payments—Great Britain May 2009 Benefit Total claimants receiving assistance with SMI MI paid direct to 3rd party1 MI included in housing costs paid to claimant2

IS 79,600 78,000 1,600 JSA (IB) 19,400 18,100 1,400 PC 116,400 89,800 26,600 1 The majority of the major lending institutions are members of the mortgage interest direct scheme (MID), and there is a statutory obligation that mortgage interest payments are transferred direct to lenders. 2 Mortgage lenders who are not members of the MID Scheme do not have payments made direct to them. Instead customers receive housing cost payments in their weekly benefit. They are responsible for maintaining their lending arrangement and forwarding these payments to the lender. Notes: 1. Figures have been uprated using 5 per cent. proportions against 100 per cent. WPLS totals and rounded to the nearest 100. 2. Residual MIG cases are included in the IS figures. These are mainly cases where the claimant is aged under 60 and the partner over 60. 3. Support for Mortgage Interest is a component of income-based jobseeker’s allowance so cannot be added to contribution-based jobseeker’s allowance. 4. The DWP reformed Support for Mortgage Interest (SMI), by shortening the waiting period before SMI is paid from 39 weeks to 13 weeks for new working age claims. This came into effect from 5 January 2009. 5. Totals may not sum due to rounding. Sources: 1. Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) 2. Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 5 per cent. sample

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Pensions and Pensions (1) how many applications for assistance from the Support for Mortgage Interest Scheme were received in each of the last 12 quarters; [316827] Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State (2) what proportion of applications for funding from for Work and Pensions with reference to the answer of the Support for Mortgage Interest Scheme was granted 7 July 2009, Official Report, column 747W, on pensions, in each month since January 2008. [316804] if she will place in the Library a copy of each of the three written representations. [311743] Helen Goodman: The information is not collated centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Angela Eagle: The summary of consultation responses cost. can be found at: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pae-regulations-2009-govt- Pension Credit response-sept09.pdf It is not our normal practice to publish consultation Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Work responses individually. You may wish to contact the and Pensions what estimate she has made of the Local Government Employers and Communities and proportion of pensioners who were eligible for Local Government to request a copy directly. guarantee credit in (a) Chesterfield constituency, (b) Derbyshire and (c) England in each year since 2003. [317649]

Angela Eagle: Estimates of eligibility are not available Poverty below the level of Great Britain. The latest estimates of the take-up rates and the Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work number of those entitled but not receiving pension and Pensions how many families were classed as living credit are published in the report ‘Income Related Benefits in poverty in each financial year since 1996-97. [313163] estimates of Take-Up in 2007-08’, which is available in the House of Commons Library or on the DWP website at: Helen Goodman: The requested information is given http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/irb.asp in the following table. 737W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 738W

Total number of families, and number and proportion of families living in Jonathan Shaw: The information is in the following households with less than 60 per cent. of contemporary median income, 1996-97 to 2007-08, Great Britain table: Proportion living in low Number living in low Number and proportion of incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance and income households income households employment and support allowance claimants in the Ashford constituency and Number Before After Before After Kent in May 2009 of housing housing housing housing Incapacity benefit/severe Employment and support families costs costs costs costs disablement allowance allowance (million) (percentage) (percentage) (million) (million) Proportion Proportion of working of working 1996-97 28.9 19 25 5.4 7.3 age age 1997-98 29.1 19 24 5.5 7.0 population population 1998-99 29.3 19 24 5.4 7.0 Number of as a Number of as a claimants percentage claimants percentage 1999- 29.4 19 24 5.5 7.0 2000 Ashford 2,940 4.4 430 0.6 2000-01 29.5 18 23 5.5 6.8 constituency 2001-02 29.7 18 22 5.4 6.6 County of 43,660 5.2 5,580 0.7 2002-03 29.8 18 22 5.5 6.7 Kent 2003-04 30.1 18 21 5.4 6.4 Notes: 1. Caseload has been rounded to the nearest 10. 2004-05 30.3 17 20 5.2 6.1 2. Percentages are shown to one decimal place. 2005-06 30.7 18 21 5.5 6.5 3. Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new claims from 27 October 2006-07 30.9 18 22 5.6 6.7 2008. 2007-08 31.1 19 22 5.8 6.8 4. The proportion of claimants shown for the Ashford constituency is a Notes: percentage of the whole of the Ashford constituency’s working age 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income, sourced population. from the Family Resources Survey. Both of these documents are available in the 5. The proportion of claimants shown for the County of Kent is a percentage Library. of the whole of the county of Kent’s working age population. 6. The county 2. Small changes should be treated with caution as these will be affected by of Kent includes the following local authorities: Ashford, Canterbury, sampling error and variability in non-response. Dartford, Dover, Gravesham, Maidstone, Sevenoaks, Shepway, Swale, Thanet, 3. The reference period for Households Below Average Income figures are single Tonbridge and Malling, Malling, Tunbridge Wells. financial years. Source: 4. Figures correspond to Great Britain only, because prior to 2002 these are the DWP Information Directorate. only figures available and so this shows the full run on a consistent basis. 5. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ the same Social Security Benefits: Ex-servicemen methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions publication ‘Households Below Average Income’ (HBAI) series, which uses disposable household income, Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, as an income Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 4 February measure as a proxy for standard of living. 6. For the Households Below Average Income series, incomes have been 2010, Official Report, column 447W, on social security equivalised using Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development benefits: ex-servicemen, if she will take steps to ensure (OECD) equivalisation factors. 7. A family is defined as a single adult or couple living as married (including that local authorities implement a full disregard of all same sex partners from January 2006) and any dependent children. war pensions in considering eligibility for housing and 8. Number of families in low-income households have been rounded to the council tax benefits. [318430] nearest hundred thousand families and proportion of families have been rounded to the nearest per cent. Source: Helen Goodman: The Government recognise the special Households Below Average Income, DWP nature of war pensions and will continue to do so. War pensioners are given preferential treatment through the Social Security Benefits: Armed Forces generous system of mandatory disregards in the income- related benefits, including housing benefit and council Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for tax benefit. Work and Pensions when she expects to publish guidance Under long-standing arrangements, local authorities on entitlement to national insurance credits for spouses have additional powers to disregard all or part of the of members of HM armed forces on the direct.gov remaining war pension when assessing housing benefit website. [318428] and council tax benefit entitlement as part of their local discretion. Angela Eagle: Legislation which provides for a new Local authorities operating a local discretionary disregard National Insurance credit for the accompanying spouse in addition to the mandatory disregard of war pensions or civil partner of a member of Her Majesty’s forces, meet the majority of the costs but, since 2004, receive a who is on an assignment outside the United Kingdom, contribution in their benefit subsidy in recognition of is currently going through the legislative process and this. will come into force from 6 April 2010. The Government have no plans to amend legislation The associated guidance, which includes information to make the full disregard of war pensions mandatory as to who will benefit from this change is currently as we believe this is properly a responsibility that is being produced and will shortly be made available via devolved to local authorities to use their discretion in the appropriate routes including Directgov. this matter. Social Security Benefits: Fraud Social Security Benefits: Disabled Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people called the Benefit Work and Pensions how many (a) incapacity benefit Fraud hotline in each of the last 12 months; how many and (b) employment and support allowance claimants such calls were followed up with an investigation; and there were in (i) Ashford constituency and (ii) Kent on how many prosecutions for benefit fraud leading to a the latest date for which figures are available. [313514] conviction there have been in the same period. [302937] 739W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 740W

Helen Goodman: Every call to the National Benefit Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Fraud Hotline is examined by the Department. Where and Pensions what estimate has her Department made there is enough evidence to indicate potential benefit of the additional on flows to (a) jobseekers’ allowance fraud the case is passed to either the Fraud Investigation and (b) income support attributable to the introduction Service for further investigation or to our Customer of employment and support allowance in each quarter Compliance teams in Jobcentre Plus who will scrutinise since October 2008. [317039] the relevant benefit claim and make adjustments to entitlements as necessary. Jim Knight [holding answer 22 February 2010]: The The number of prosecutions for benefit fraud leading requested information is not available. to a conviction from National Benefit Fraud Hotline referrals is not available. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Available information is set out in the following table: and Pensions what estimate her Department has made of the projected caseloads for (a) jobseekers’ allowance Number of calls followed up with an investigation and (b) income support not reckoning the introduction Number of employment and support allowance in each quarter Calls to [317040] National Referred since October 2008. Benefit for further In depth Customer Fraud initial criminal compliance Jim Knight [holding answer 22 February 2010]: The Hotline inquiries investigation interview requested information is not available. No estimate has 2008 been made of caseloads for jobseeker’s allowance or November 19,107 6,588 3,444 6,144 income support based on the employment and support allowance not having been introduced. December 12,826 7,277 2,499 5,288

2009 Unemployment Benefits: Medical Examinations January 26,879 10,495 3,245 7,042 February 19,741 8,709 3,113 6,004 March 21,113 9,737 3,510 6,773 Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for April 22,380 8,176 3,252 6,095 Work and Pensions what contracts her Department has May 19,497 8,182 3,616 6,160 with external companies to conduct work capability assessments; and when each such contract is due to June 22,828 9,893 3,443 6,847 expire. [317750] July 25,725 9,321 3,594 6,741 August 21,389 7,777 2,834 5,333 September 21,305 12,515 5,438 8,272 Jonathan Shaw: The DWP has one contract for the October 24,462 9,197 3,462 5,046 provision of medical services which is delivered on a Notes: national basis. The current medical services contract to 1. Monthly call data begin on the first Friday after the first Thursday conduct work capability assessments was awarded to of the month. Atos Healthcare, a subsidiary company of Atos Origin. 2. Number of calls to the National Benefit Fraud Hotline is the number of calls that are presented to the Contact Centre and enter the The contract commenced on 1 September 2005 and is queue (or are answered immediately) during business hours. Business due to expire on 31 August 2012. The Department has hours are 7am to 11pm. options to extend the contract for a further five years up 3. Number of investigations is generated from the number of referrals/ to 31 August 2017. incidents accepted for investigation (i.e. those which result in a case being opened). 4. Figures represent Great Britain only (do not include Northern Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Ireland). Work and Pensions how many appeals against the Sources: outcomes of assessments for employment support 1. National Benefit Fraud Hotline data provided by Jobcentre Plus Contact Centre Directorate. allowance in (a) the UK and (b) Scotland there have 2. Investigation data taken from DWP Fraud Referral and Investigation been since 27 October 2008; in how many such cases Management System. the appeal has been upheld; and how many of the upheld appeals related to the outcomes of assessments undertaken in respect of a serious illness. [317755] Unemployment Benefits Jonathan Shaw: The Department publishes detailed Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work information relating to the work capability assessment and Pensions how many customers who have made for employment and support allowance claims in Great successful claims for (a) jobseekers’ allowance and (b) Britain. Information is not available at a lower level. income support had previously made an unsuccessful The report can be found at: claim for employment and support allowance in each http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ quarter since the introduction of that allowance. esa_wca_arc.asp [317037] A copy is available in the Library. This report contains details of the number of initial assessments carried out Jim Knight [holding answer 22 February 2010]: The since the introduction of employment and support information is not available as records of unsuccessful allowance, a breakdown of the result of the assessment, claims are not included in the National Statistics datasets including the fit for work decision and separate information which underpin routine publication of benefit statistics. relating to work capability assessment appeals. 741W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 742W

Information about the number of work capability have received help through Jobcentre Plus, (b) are in assessment appeals is in the table. employment and (c) are out of work. [304393] Work capability assessment appeals heard on ‘Fit for Work’ decisions: employment and support allowance claims to December 2008/appeals Jim Knight: The information requested is not available. heard by end of December 2009 Number HEALTH Appeals heard 8,800 Notes: Accident and Emergency Departments 1. Includes clerical assessments. 2. Volumes will increase in the coming months as more appeals are Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for processed giving a more robust picture of appeal volumes and outcomes. It will then be possible to link this information to the work capability Health what information his Department holds on the assessment data and provide information on proportions appealing. use of accident and emergency departments at (a) 3. Figure rounded to the nearest 100. University College Hospital, (b) the Royal Free Hospital, Data by medical conditions is not yet available for (c) Whittington Hospital, (d) Barnet General Hospital, employment and support allowance. Information on (e) North Middlesex Hospital and (f) Chase Farm appeal outcomes falls to my hon. Friend the Secretary Hospital in each year since 2000. [318019] of State for Justice. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information is collected on first attendances in accident and emergency (A and E) Woolworths: Redundancy departments. This excludes follow-up visits for the same condition, but counts each attendance by the same Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work patient for different conditions separately. The following and Pensions what information her Department holds table shows reported first attendances for north central on the number of former Woolworth workers who (a) London by national health service trust.

First attendances at accident and emergency (A&E) departments, minor injury units and walk-in centres, Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals, North Middlesex University Hospital, Royal Free Hampstead, The Whittington Hospital, University College London Hospitals First attendances OrgID Name 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

RVL Barnet and 113,020 112,805 113,918 125,269 137,251 146,758 148,436 145,965 150,072 Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust RAP North 3,245 3,125 4,968 27,812 42,414 53,283 151,702 108,822 107,902 Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust RAL Royal Free 6,881 6,088 9,474 6,172 3,522 75,130 73,717 4,002 7,308 Hampstead NHS Trust RKE The 67,833 5,275 65,904 9,482 77,283 9,921 1,715 9,231 6,991 Whittington Hospital NHS Trust RRV University 63,386 61,202 65,196 70,956 76,910 82,109 91,429 94,962 93,558 College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Notes: 1. This data is subject to our formal revision policy. 2. A&E attendances were collected annually from 1987-88 to 2002-03 on the KH09 as A&E/MIU. 3. WiC attendances were added in Ql 2003-04. 4. A&E attendances were first collected in Ql 2002-03 on the QMAE. 5. IS provided services were added in Ql 2007-08. These data were collected retrospectively at the end of 2007-08. They were added to the QMAE from Ql 2008-09. 6. North Middlesex reported a WiC between 2004-05 and 2006-07. 7. The Whittington reported a WiC from 2004-05 to 2008-09. Source: Department of Health dataset KH09, QMAE.

Cancer: Health Services Ann Keen: This information is not held in the requested format. We are not able to provide information on what change there has been in the average level of national health service expenditure on an individual cancer patient Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for in the last five years. We are able to provide information Health what the change has been in the average level of on gross expenditure per capita on cancers and tumours NHS expenditure on an individual cancer patient in the in England. last five years. [318697] 743W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 744W

Gross expenditure per capita on cancers and tumours in England Mr. Mike O’Brien: Expenditure plans for 2010-11 are Total spend England Spend per set out in the Departmental Report 2009: (£000) populations head (£) (a) Resource in Figure A5: Page 219 2003-04 3,385,750 49,175,998 68.85 (b) Capital expenditure in Figure A7: Page 221. 2004-05 3,773,203 49,175,998 76.73 These tables include a split of expenditure that shows 2005-06 4,302,656 49,175,998 87.50 departmental expenditure, and overall expenditure in 2006-07 4,352,462 50,476,231 86.23 the national health service. 2007-08 4,964,282 50,695,989 97.92 2008-09 5,134,948 51,220,531 100.25 Departmental Statistics Notes: 1. Expenditure figures are from estimated England level programme budgeting data, which are calculated using primary care trust (PCT) Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State and strategic health authority programme budgeting returns and for Health if he will place in the Library a copy of his Department of Health Resource Accounts data. Figures will include Department’s latest statistics on the percentage of an estimation of special health authority expenditure. courses of dental treatment for the same patient 2. In order to improve data quality, continual refinements have been made to the programme budgeting data calculation methodology re-attending within (a) three months and (b) three to since the first collection in 2003-04. The underlying data which nine months in each primary care trust. [318173] support programme budgeting data are also subject to yearly changes. Caution is therefore advised when using programme budgeting data Ann Keen: The information requested is contained in to draw conclusions on changes in PCT spending patterns between a table, which has been placed in the Library. years. 3. Figures do not include expenditure on cancer screening, health promotion programmes or general practitioner expenditure. Populations Derriford Hospital are those used for PCT resource allocations. Cancer: Nurses Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what training procedures have been put in place for Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health nursing staff at Derriford Hospital following the (1) what estimate he has made of the cost to the public transfer of the upper gastro-intestinal cancer unit from purse of the Prime Minister’s plans to provide specialist the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital. [318168] cancer nurses for all people in England who (a) have and (b) have had cancer; how many new nurses such Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not additional funding would provide; and from which budget held centrally, and this is a matter for the local national it will be taken; [318891] health service. (2) what estimate he has made of the number of specialist cancer nurses required to provide support at Down’s Syndrome: Dementia home for all in England who (a) have and (b) have had cancer; how many such nurses would be newly- Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Health trained nurses; and how many hours of support per what steps his Department is taking to support people week on average he estimates each such person would with Down’s syndrome who have dementia. [318145] need. [318892] Phil Hope: Improving services for dementia including Ann Keen: We are investing £20 million in 2011-12 to people with learning difficulties who also have dementia work with Macmillan to introduce more specialist cancer is a Government priority. The Government launched nurse posts. The £20 million has been found from the first ever National Dementia Strategy and funding released from programmes launched by the implementation plan in February 2009, backed by £150 Next Stage review, which will either have been implemented million in funding to primary care trusts in 2009-10 and fully by 2011-12, or which funded development activities 2010-11. Mention is made throughout the strategy on which are now reaching a planned conclusion. the particular needs of people with learning difficulties. Current estimates are that up to half of cancer patients do not have one to one support, which could mean that Hackney we would need to double the number of people who provide such support. We are currently carrying out a Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if detailed assessment of work force needs. This includes he will set out, with statistical evidence relating as considering different possible models and levels of support, closely as possible to Hackney North and Stoke Newington which may vary according to where someone is on the constituency, the effects on that constituency of his patient pathway. Department’s policies since 1997. [318377] It is likely that most of the additional work force will need to receive training, and we will be looking at what Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Government have put in needs to be done to ensure that the work force is place a programme of national health service investment appropriately trained. and reform since 1997 to improve service delivery in all parts of the United Kingdom. 93 per cent. of people Departmental Finance nationally now rate the NHS as good or excellent. The NHS Constitution contains 25 rights and 14 pledges for Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State patients and the public including new rights to be for Health what his plans are in respect of (a) resource treated within 18 weeks, or be seen by a cancer specialist and (b) capital expenditure for (i) his Department and within two weeks, and an NHS health check every five (ii) the NHS budget in 2010-11. [318185] years for those aged 40-74 years. 745W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 746W

There is significant evidence that these policies have Child obesity levels are reducing due to the efforts of yielded considerable benefits for the Hackney North families across England, supported by the Government’s and Stoke Newington constituency. obesity strategy. In 2008, 13.9 per cent. of children For example, figures for December 2009 show that in (aged 2 to 10) in England were classified as obese, City and Hackney primary care trust (PCT): compared with 17.3 per cent. in 2005. 94 per cent. of patients whose treatment involved admission to Overall, life expectancy at birth for men has increased hospital started their treatment within 18 weeks. from 74.5 years (1995-1997 data) to 77.7 years (2006-08 98 per cent. of patients whose treatment did not involve data) while for women, life expectancy at birth has admission to hospital started their treatment within 18 weeks. increased from 79.6 years (1995-97 data) to 81.9 years Between September 2001 and September 2008 the number of (2006-08 data). general practitioners (GPs) per 100,000 people within City and Hackney PCT has increased from 69.9 to 81.8. Health Services: Gloucestershire In September 2009, at Barts and the London NHS Trust, 98.3 per cent. of patients spent less than four hours in accident and emergency from arrival to admission, transfer or discharge. Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for In September 2009, at Homerton University Hospital NHS Health what estimate he has made of the likely number Foundation Trust, 98.5 per cent. of patients spent less than of hospital beds provided by (a) NHS foundation and four hours in accident and emergency from arrival to admission, (b) primary care trusts in Gloucestershire in the transfer or discharge. financial year (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. [318787] Between September 1997 and September 2008 the number of consultants at Barts and the London NHS Trust increased Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not from 177 to 417. Between September 1997 and September 2008 the estimated number of nurses increased from 1,991 to 2,641. collected centrally. Between September 1997 and September 2008 the number of It is for the local national health service organisations consultants at Homerton University Hospital NHS Foundation to plan, develop and improve services for local people. Trust increased from 29 to 86. Between September 1997 and September 2008 the estimated number of nurses increased Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for from 615 to 1,029. Health what estimate he has made of the likely number 93.4 per cent. of urgent GP referrals to Barts and the London of (a) specialists, (b) doctors, (c) nursing staff and NHS Trust with suspected cancer are seen by a specialist (d) auxiliary staff in each (i) NHS foundation and (ii) within two weeks of the referral. primary care trust in Gloucestershire in the financial 96.2 per cent. of urgent GP referrals to Homerton University year (A) 2010-11 and (B) 2011-12. [318788] Hospital NHS Foundation Trust with suspected cancer are seen by a specialist within two weeks of the referral. Ann Keen: The information requested is not collected Although statistical information is not available at a centrally. local level, Hackney North and Stoke Newington will have also benefitted from national policies in other Local national health service organisations are best areas. For example: placed to assess the health needs of their local community and plan the workforce and training requirements of Since 1997, gross current expenditure on personal the staff that they need. social services has increased by around 70 per cent. in real terms with around 105,000 households now receiving Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for intensive home care and 3,076 new extra care housing Health how much funding his Department plans to units—exceeding the original target of 1,500 new extra provide for (a) NHS foundation and (b) primary care care units. trusts in Gloucestershire in the financial year (i) Other strategies currently being implemented are: 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. [318790] Subject to parliamentary approval, the Personal Care at Home Bill will guarantee free personal care for 280,000 people with Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information is not collected the highest needs and help around 130,000 people who need in the format requested. home care for the first time to regain their independence; “Shaping the Future of Care Together” Green Paper, published On 8 December 2008, primary care trusts (PCTs) in July 2009, sets out a vision for a National Care Service for all were informed of their allocations for 2009-10 and adults in England which is fair, simple and affordable. The 2010-11. The allocations to PCTs in Gloucestershire are Department has consulted widely on this reform and is currently shown in the following table . analysing the responses, which will feed into a White Paper later this year; £ million The National Carer’s Strategy (“Carers at the heart of 21st 2009-10 2010-11 century families and communities”) launched in 2008; The first National Dementia Strategy was published in February Gloucestershire PCT 825.9 868.5 2009; South Gloucestershire 323.1 339.7 PCT “Valuing People Now”—a three year strategy for people with learning disabilities published in January 2009; and PCT allocations for 2011-12 onwards are yet to be “New Horizons: A Shared Vision for Mental Health”—launched in December 2009—to maintain improvements in mental health determined. However, as announced in the pre-Budget services combined with a new cross-Government approach to report in December 2009, front-line NHS spending will promoting public mental health. be protected for the following two years to 2012-13. Since 1998, there are now 2.4 million fewer smokers The Department does not make allocations directly in England as a result of the Government’s comprehensive to foundation trusts. It is for PCTs to use the funding tobacco control strategy which has had a measurable allocated to them to commission services to meet the impact on reducing smoking prevalence. needs of their local populations. 747W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 748W

Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for delivered closer to home, as set out in ‘NHS 2010-2015: Health for what reason the effect on the delivery of from good to great. Preventative, people-centred, healthcare services of changes to funding provided by productive’. his Department to (a) NHS foundation trusts and (b) The ‘Operating Framework 2010/11’ and ‘NHS 2010- primary care trusts in Gloucestershire between financial 2015: from good to great. Preventative, people-centred, years 2010-11 and 2011-12 was not discussed at the productive’ have already been placed in the Library and meeting held on 22 January 2010 at the Gloucestershire are also available on the Department’s website at: primary care trust headquarters. [318791] www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/index.htm Health: Islington Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department had no involvement in the meeting held on 22 January 2010 at the Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Gloucestershire primary care trust headquarters. Health what comparative information on health inequalities in Islington his Department holds on (a) teenage pregnancy, This was a meeting of the Gloucestershire members (b) infant mortality, (c) life expectancy, (d) obesity of Parliament and the chairs and chief executives (or and (e) HIV/AIDS in (i) 1990, (ii) 1995, (iii) 2000, (iv) their representatives) of the Gloucestershire national 2005 and (v) the latest date for which figures are available. health service organisations: Gloucestershire primary [318033] care trust, Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, 2gether NHS Foundation Trust and Great Western Gillian Merron: The data are not available in the Ambulance Service NHS Trust. requested format. Information relevant to teenage pregnancy and infant Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health mortality is not held centrally. when his Department was informed of proposals to cut However, data is available from the Office for National £27 million from the budget of the Gloucestershire Statistics (ONS). Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust for 2010-11 by (a) The information requested on obesity is not held Gloucestershire Primary Care Trust and (b) centrally. However, data on obesity in adults and children Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. in England has been published in the Health Survey for [318793] England. However, data on the number of obese adults and children in Islington is unavailable. Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department was not informed The following table provides ONS data for life expectancy by Gloucestershire primary care trust or Gloucestershire in Islington and England. Life expectancy data for Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust of the proposals to Islington are not available for 1989-91. cut £27 million from the budget of the Gloucestershire The following tables provides Health Protection Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust for 2010-11. Agency Information on those affected by Human The Department does not make allocations directly Immunodeficiency Virus/Acquired Immune Deficiency to foundation trusts. It is for primary care trusts to use (HIV/AIDS) within the Islington Primary Care Trust the funding allocated to them to commission services to (PCT) area. meet the needs of their local populations. Life expectancy at birth (years), Islington local authority and England 1991- 1994- 1999- 2004- 2006- Health Services: Worcestershire 1993 1996 2001 2006 2008 Males, 71 72 73 75 75 Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if Islington he will make it his policy to allow further time for NHS Males, 74 74 76 77 78 Worcestershire to consult on changes to the purchaser/ England provider split to enable local views to be taken fully into account before developing a preferred option for Females, 78 78 79 80 81 the delivery of community services; and if he will make Islington a statement. [318586] Females, 79 80 80 82 82 England Mr. Mike O’Brien: There are no plans to extend the Notes: 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest integer. deadline set in the ‘NHS Operating Framework 2010/11’ 2 All figures are three-year averages, produced by aggregating the for primary care trusts (PCTs) to agree their proposals number of deaths registered in each year and mid-year population for the future organisational form of all current PCT- estimates across each three-year period. provided community services with their strategic health 3 Figures are period life expectancies at birth. Period expectation of authority. life at birth for an area in a given time period is an estimate of the average number of years a newborn baby would survive if he or she When determining the timetable for planning and experienced the particular area’s age-specific mortality rates for that implementing proposals for the future form of PCT- time period throughout his or her life. It is not therefore the number provided community services, the Department took of years a newborn baby in the area in each time period could actually expect to live, both because the death rates of the area are likely to account of the need to create greater stability within change in the future and because many of those born In the area will community services to provide certainty for community live elsewhere for at least some part of their lives. service staff and a firm foundation for service 4 All figures are calculated using abridged life tables. Deaths of transformation. Consideration was given to the pivotal non-residents are excluded from the data for England. (The England role community services play in helping the national figures presented here may differ slightly from figures quoted elsewhere based on National Interim Life Tables, which are calculated using health service to meet the productivity and quality complete life tables and include deaths of non-residents). challenge. This will enable the NHS to accelerate service Source: integration to deliver the vision of more integrated care Office for National Statistics 749W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 750W

Information on numbers of individuals newly diagnosed Table 4: Individuals newly diagnosed with HIV in Islington PCT; by with HIV or AIDS in Islington PCT and individuals year of diagnosis and probable route of infection accessing HIV-related care in Islington PCT are presented Year of diagnosis by sex, age at diagnosis, probable route of infection and Report ethnic group in the following tables. type and sex 1990 1995 2000 2005 2008 Table 1: Individuals newly diagnosed with HIV in Islington PCT; new HIV and first AIDS diagnoses by year of diagnosis HIV Sex between 20 18 7 15 <5 diagnoses men PCT of Heterosexual 62516378 diagnosis Report type Year of diagnosis contact Other<5<5<5<50 1990 1995 2000 2005 2008

Table 5: Individuals newly diagnosed with HIV in Islington PCT; by Islington HIV 30 46 25 56 14 year of diagnosis and ethnicity PCT diagnoses 1 Year of diagnosis AIDS 12 16 <5 <5 0 Report diagnoses 1 type and sex 1990 1995 2000 2005 2008

1 A further eight individuals diagnosed with HIV in the Camden and HIV White 14 19 10 13 5 Islington area and seven individuals diagnosed with AIDS were diagnoses reported, however it is not possible to determine which PCT these Black <5 10 10 30 <5 individuals were diagnosed in. African Table 2: Individuals newly diagnosed with HIV in Islington PCT; by year of diagnosis and sex Other <5 <5 <5 9 <5 Year of diagnosis Notes: Report 1. Diagnoses are from reports received to end June 2009. Numbers; type and will rise as further reports are received. sex 1990 1995 2000 2005 2008 2. Patients may live with HIV for many years before they are diagnosed. Therefore, new diagnosis data does not necessarily reflect recently HIV Men252912288acquired infections. diagnoses 3. Areas when presented are area of diagnoses and not of residence. 4. Cells with counts under five have been masked to avoid the risk of Women 5 17 13 28 6 deductive disclosure of an individual’s identity. 5. AIDS diagnoses relate to a person’s first diagnosis of an AIDS defining illness (subsequent diagnoses are not recorded). Table 3: Individuals newly diagnosed with HIV in Islington PCT; by 6. AIDS diagnoses were not presented by sex, age, ethnicity or year and age at diagnosis probable route of infection as numbers were too low. Report type Year of diagnosis 7. With the Whittington hospital being the only major diagnosing site and age at located within Islington Primary care Trust (PCT), it is highly probable diagnosis that persons resident within Islington PCT are being diagnosed in 1990 1995 2000 2005 2008 neighbouring PCTs.

HIV <20 <5 <5 <5 5 0 Table 6: number of diagnosed HIV-infected patients accessing care, diagnoses resident in Islington PCT, by age group: 2000, 2005 and 2008 20-34 18 26 15 21 7 0-14 15-24 25-34 35-44 45-54 55+ Total 35-44 8 14 <5 20 <5 2000 10 9 234 276 58 22 609 45-54 <5 <5 <5 7 <5 2005 12 24 223 524 182 53 1018 55+ <5 <5 <5 <5 <5 2008 5 35 198 588 319 92 1,237

Table 7: number of diagnosed HIV-infected patients accessing care, resident in Islington PCT, by ethnic group: 2000, 2005 and 2008 Black- Black- Black Indian/Pakistani Not White Caribbean African other /Bangladeshi Other/mixed known Total

2000 465 6 72 11 6 44 5 609 2005 701 28 176 18 8 74 13 1,018 2008 823 38 206 21 14 101 34 1,237

Table 8: number of diagnosed HIV-infected patients accessing care, resident in Islington PCT, by route of infection: 2000, 2005 and 2008 Sex between men Injecting drug use Heterosexual sex Other Not known Total

2000 444 37 112 14 <5 608-611 2005 716 44 230 20 8 1,018 2008 823 47 281 18 68 1,237 Notes: 1. Cells with counts under five have been masked to avoid the ris;k of deductive disclosure of an individual’s identity. 2. Data are not available for 1990 and 1995. 3. With the Whittington Hospital being the only major diagnosing site located within Islington PCT, it is highly probable that persons resident within Islington PCT are being diagnosed in neighbouring PCTs Source: Health Protection Agency 751W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 752W

Home Care Services Phil Hope: Changes to planned expenditure in 2010-11 to cover the Department’s contribution to the funding Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State of the Personal Care at Home Bill include nearly £50 for Health what assessment his Department has made million from indicative advertising and communications of any unintended consequences of plans to provide spending, over £60 million from management consultancy free personal care at home for those in greatest need; spending and over £20 million in reduced administration and what steps his Department is taking to mitigate costs. any such unintended consequences. [318191] In addition, a saving of £62 million will be achieved by transferring responsibility for research activity from Phil Hope: The assessments made by the Department other departmental budgets to the Department’s ring-fenced for the Personal Care at Home Bill are set out in the research and development budget. That budget will rise impact assessment, which has already been placed in to over £1 billion in 2010-11. The research it currently the Library. The Department is committed to reviewing funds will continue as planned. the policy within 12-18 months; any unintended or unforeseen consequences will be examined at that time. Hospitals: Waiting Lists

Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 3 February 2010, for Health whether his Department has received recent Official Report, columns 385-6W, on home care reports that GPs in some areas are delaying referrals to services, for what reason the Personal Social Services hospital for treatment in order to meet waiting time EX1 return cost of care per hour was not used in targets. [318189] respect of the Personal Care at Home Bill. [318402] Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department is not aware of Phil Hope: The latest Personal Social Services EX1 recent reports that general practitioners (GPs) in some return (PSS EX1), provisional 2008-09 data, shows areas are delaying referrals to hospital for treatment in that, for adults and older people receiving home care, order to meet waiting time targets. the hourly cost is £15 per hour (sample week activity). GPs have a duty to ensure that patient referrals are The hourly cost of care used in the Personal Social based on clinical need. Our policy is clear: all patients Services Research Unit (PSSRU) model is based on this should be treated without unnecessary delay according figure, but has been adjusted to £15.75 per hour at to their clinical need. 2011-12 prices. We have used the PSSRU modelling, since it is specialist independent analysis, using a microsimulation model constructed to produce analyses Independent Sector Treatment Centres Programme for the Care and Support Green Paper and White Paper. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department has spent on Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State each stage of the independent sector treatment centres for Health what methodology was used to calculate the programme to date; and what percentage of contract 6.54 figure for the average number of hours of personal activities such centres have undertaken at each such care per week on page 16 of the Impact Assessment for stage. [318181] the Personal Care at Home Bill. [318474] Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Independent Sector Treatment Phil Hope: The figure of 6.54 hours per week is Centre (ISTC) programme was procured in two stages drawn from the Personal Social Services Research Unit known as Wave One and Phase Two. (PSSRU) modelling, which is in turn rooted in current Payments for activity have been made to ISTC providers patterns of care. The PSSRU model shows an average as follows: package of community-based care for those in the Wave One £1,324.7 million and Phase Two £227.5 million (as critical Fair Access to Care Services category of around at 31 December 2009). 8.7 hours per week. The PSSRU assumes, on the basis of Personal Social Services EX1 return (PSS EX1) data, The utilisation of ISTCs is continuing to improve that 74 per cent. of this package—around 6.5 hours per and at the end of 2009 stood at 86 per cent. for Wave week—is home care. The Department then assumes One and 78 per cent. for Phase Two. that around 85 per cent. of the home care hours—around 5.5 hours per week on average—is personal care. Leukaemia: Drugs The cost estimate for the Personal Care at Home Bill implies eight hours of personal care per week for new Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State entrants to publicly funded care. This is because the for Health what support will be given to people Department has made more generous allowance for the diagnosed with chronic myeloid leukaemia if the demand effects of free personal care than the PSSRU National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence modelling. recommends against the use of the drugs dasatinib and nilotinib. [318382] Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health from which budgets he expects his Ann Keen: The National Institute for Health and Department’s contribution to the funding of free Clinical Excellence (NICE) has not yet published final personal care at home to be made; and by how much in guidance on the use of dasatinib and nilotinib for the each such case. [318184] treatment of chronic myeloid leukaemia (CML) that is 753W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 754W resistant to imatinib. NICE has published draft guidance Mr. Mike O’Brien: This information is not yet available. and stakeholders now have until 2 March to comment Expenditure beyond 2010-11 will be agreed as part of on NICE’S recommendations. the next spending review. As set out in pre-Budget Alternative treatment options for CML that is resistant report December 2009 paragraph 6.23: to imatinib include interferon alfa, hydroxycarbamide “the Government is not doing a spending review at this stage.” or best supportive care. Guidance on best supportive care for patients with CML is set out in the NICE guidance Improving outcomes in haematological cancers, NHS: Complaints published in 2003.

National Care Service Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to which body complaints about chairs of NHS hospital trusts should be directed. [318219] Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his most recent estimate is of the cost of the introduction of a national care service. [318187] Ann Keen: The nature of the individual complaint determines the body to which the complaint should be Phil Hope: The most recent estimate of the cost of directed. proposals for reform of the care and support system as Complaints relating to the functions of a national set out in the Green Paper, ‘Shaping the Future of Care health service trust may be sent directly to that trust, Together’, were published in the Green Paper Impact which is responsible for investigating complaints in Assessment available online at: respect of those functions; if relevant, this includes the www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ actions of the NHS trust board. PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_102338 Complaints about the conduct or performance of the Copies have already been placed in the Library. chair should be referred to the NHS trust in the first Details of the costs and benefits of reform of the care instance. If the correspondent is dissatisfied with the and support system will be set out in more detail in our NHS trust’s response, the matter should then be referred White Paper to be published this year. to the relevant strategic health authority (SHA) chair, who will investigate the matter. If an SHA chair feels NHS the allegations are serious enough to warrant possible suspension or termination of the chair’s appointment, Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for he or she will refer the case to the Appointments Health under what circumstances social enterprises can Commission. tender for provision of NHS services; and if he will make a statement. [318501] NHS: Finance Mr. Mike O’Brien: Where commissioners decide to procure services through competitive tender, all providers Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for should have a fair and equal opportunity to bid. Further Health what the percentage change to his Department’s guidance will be set out in a revised PCT Procurement funding for (a) NHS foundation trusts and (b) Guide, due to be published shortly. primary care trusts is between financial years 2010-11 and 2011-12; and when the trusts were notified of these Mr. Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health changes. [318789] what guidelines apply to the operation of the NHS as a preferred provider; and whether those guidelines make Mr. Mike O’Brien: On 8 December 2008 primary provision for mutual providers. [318506] care trusts (PCTs) were informed of their revenue allocations for 2009-10 and 2010-11. The allocations are set out in Mr. Mike O’Brien: Guidance will be set out in detail the following table. in a revised PCT procurement guide due to be published shortly. 2009-10 2010-11

NHS Direct Total PCT revenue allocations 80 84 (£ billion) Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Increase on previous year (£ billion) 4.2 4.4 Health what the average cost of a call to NHS Direct Increase on previous year 5.5 5.5 (percentage) was in 2009. [317691]

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not PCT revenue allocations for 2011-12 onwards are yet collected. Calls to NHS Direct cost a maximum of 5p to be determined. However, as announced in the pre-Budget per minute from a BT landline. Mobiles and other report in December of last year, front-line national networks may vary. health service spending will rise in line with inflation for the following two years to 2012-13. NHS: Capital Expenditure The Department does not make allocations directly to foundation trusts. It is for PCTs to use the funding Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State allocated to them to commission services from foundation for Health what plans his Department has for NHS trusts and other providers to meet the needs of their capital expenditure beyond 2010-11. [318183] local populations. 755W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 756W

NHS: Manpower It is likely that most of the additional work force will need to receive training, and we will be looking at what Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State needs to be done to ensure that the work force is for Health what assessment he has made of the effect of appropriately trained. the points-based immigration system on the NHS’s ability to recruit specialist consultants from outside the Prescriptions: Fees and Charges European Economic Area. [318220] Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Ann Keen: The national health service is able to for Health when he expects to introduce free prescriptions recruit specialist consultants through the points-based for all those with long-term medical conditions; and system either through tier 1 or, where there is no suitable what his most recent estimate is of the cost to his United Kingdom or European economic area applicant, Department. [318188] through tier 2. Consultants in some specialities are on the tier 2 Mr. Mike O’Brien: Professor Gilmore has now submitted shortage occupation list which means their recruitment his report on exempting people with long-term conditions can be fast-tracked and does not require a full resident from prescription charges to the Department. The labour market test. recommendations are currently being considered. The Nurses cost of introducing the new exemption will depend on how the changes are phased in. We will publish our response shortly. Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the post-operative nurse to patient ratio is for high risk operations at (a) The Royal Devon and Exeter Royal Liverpool Hospital Hospital and (b) Derriford Hospital, Plymouth. [318210] Mrs. Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress he has made in his consideration Ann Keen: The information requested is not collected of proposals for the rebuilding of the Royal Liverpool centrally. Hospital; and if he will make a statement. [318758]

Nurses: Cancer Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Outline Business Case (OBC) for the £453 million private finance initiative proposal Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State to redevelop Royal Liverpool university hospital is currently for Health what estimate he has made of the cost to the with the Department for approval. Subject to approval public purse of plans to provide specialist cancer nurses by departmental officials and Ministers the OBC will for all 1.6 million people in England who have or who then go to the Treasury for approval. have had cancer; and from which budget it will be funded. [318223] Social Services Ann Keen: We are investing £20 million in 2011-12 to work with Macmillan to introduce more specialist cancer Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State nurse posts. The £20 million has been found from for Health pursuant to the answer of 8 December 2009, funding released from programmes launched by the Official Report, column 294W, on social services, if he Next Stage review, which will either have been implemented will place in the Library a copy of the legal advice. fully by 2011-12, or which funded development activities [318403] which are now reaching a planned conclusion. Phil Hope: Legal advice to the Government is Current estimates are that up to half of cancer patients confidential, and is covered by legal professional privilege. do not have one-to-one support. We will be looking at This enables the Government to obtain full and frank possible new models of care, which will have an impact legal advice. For this reason, the Department does not on the number of new nurses needed. intend to publish any legal advice it has received on this matter. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent estimate he has made of the number of specialist cancer nurses required to provide Strokes: Children support at home for all 1.6 million people in England who have or who have had cancer; how many such Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State nurses would require training; and what estimate he has for Health if he will introduce (a) an audit of stroke made of the number of hours per week each person care for children and (b) a national registration system requiring such support would need. [318224] for childhood stroke; and if he will make a statement. [318359] Ann Keen: Current estimates are that up to half of cancer patients do not have one-to-one support, which Ann Keen: It is for the Healthcare Quality Improvement could mean that we would need to double the number Partnership (HQIP) who manage the National Clinical of people who provide such support. We are currently Audit and Patient Outcomes Programme (NCAPOP) carrying out a detailed assessment of work force needs. on behalf of the Department to invite applications for This includes considering different possible models and new clinical audits each year, subject to the funding levels of support, which may vary according to where being available. The details are on their website at: someone is on the patient pathway. www.hqip.org.uk/national-clinical-audit/ 757W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 758W

All new applications are considered by The National who can liaise with the various agencies involved in Clinical Audit Advisory Group (NCAAG) which advises delivering national health service care, and an integrated the Department on the NCAPOP. NCAAG has set out package of care. advice on the criteria to be used to prioritise topics for As a further step, the Department will shortly publish new national clinical audits. This is available from the the final version of the National Framework for Children Department’s website at: and Young People’s Continuing Care. This will help www.dh.gov.uk/ab/NCAAG/index.htm with assessing the continuing health care needs of children and young people, and with considering the bespoke packages of care that will be required to meet those Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State needs. for Health what recent financial support his Department has provided for research into the causes, Tetra: Health Hazards outcomes and treatment of childhood stroke. [318360] Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what recent evidence he has (a) commissioned and Gillian Merron: Two National Institute for Health (b) evaluated on the effects on human health of Tetra 1 Research (NIHR) biomedical research centres are masts; [318163] undertaking research on aspects of childhood stroke. (2) what recent representations he has received on Their estimated spend on the topic is £370,000 over the the health effects of Tetra masts on members of the two years 2007 to 2009. public. [318164] The NIHR clinical research network is currently providing NHS research infrastructure support to one Gillian Merron: The Mobile Telecommunications and study concerned with the outcome of childhood stroke. Health Research programme, funded by Government and industry, commissioned a study by Essex University The Medical Research Council (MRC) meanwhile is concerning exposure of volunteers to radiofrequency not funding research specifically relating to the condition. signals typical of those from Tetra masts. The outcome However, the MRC funds a broad portfolio of more of this study was published on 14 January 2010 in a general stroke related research on which £10.1 million paper, title ″Do TETRA (Airwave) base station signals was spent in 2008-09. It includes basic and underpinning have a short-term impact on health and well-being? A research that may increase understanding of the condition randomized double-blind provocation study″ by Wallace in childhood. and co-workers in the journal Environmental Health 1 Hammersmith Hospitals and St. Mary’s Hospital National Perspectives. This paper can be obtained online at: Health Service Trusts/Imperial College London; and Great Ormond http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/ Street Hospital for Children NHS trust/University College London fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info%3Adoi%2F10.1289%2 Institute of Child Health. Fehp.0901416 The Department has received around 11 items of Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State correspondence about Tetra signals from members of for Health (1) when his Department expects to the public, either direct or through their MP. implement in full the Royal College of Physicians’ Tuberculosis: Drugs clinical guidance on childhood stroke; and if he will make a statement; [318361] Julie Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what steps his Department is taking to raise Health what processes his Department has put in place public and professional awareness of childhood stroke; to ensure that the supply of antituberculosis drugs in [318362] the UK is not interrupted. [318138] (3) what steps his Department is taking to increase Mr. Mike O’Brien: We are not aware of any current support for carers of those affected by childhood shortages of antituberculosis medicines. Due to the stroke. [318363] complex nature of pharmaceutical production, medicines supply problems can unexpectedly arise for a number of Ann Keen: Implementation of the Royal College of reasons. The Department and the Pharmaceutical Industry Physicians’ clinical guidance is a local responsibility. It have produced joint best practice guidelines which are is for commissioners, in consultation with their providers, designed to help minimise the impact of medicine shortages to specify services for their local populations on the and discontinuations. The guidelines give advice to basis of need, including children and young people. companies and encourage early exchange of information. This allows consideration of the options that are available The Government’s policy document, ‘Healthy lives, to help ensure that patients continue to get the medicines brighter futures: the strategy for children and young they need. peoples health’, raises awareness of the need to address rare and complex conditions in childhood and includes a commitment to make sure that, by 2010, all children BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS with complex health needs will have individual care Adult Education plans to support co-ordinated care. Work is in hand to ensure this commitment is met. Mr. Hancock: To ask the Minister of State, Department Support for the carers of children with complex for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps conditions is a key feature of care plans. We are moving to ensure a redistribution of Adult Safeguarded Learning towards a situation where families can expect 24/7 access funds as part of the transfer of responsibility for informal to advice and support from Community Children’s learning from the Learning and Skills Council to the Nursing Teams; a single lead professional for the family, Skills Funding Agency. [318437] 759W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 760W

Kevin Brennan: LSC funding for this type of provision Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 25 February 2010: is part of a much wider and more complex funding The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation framework and any proposals for redistribution would and Skills has asked me to reply to your question on how much need to be considered in this wider context. was spent on external consultants and advisers by (a) his Department The White Paper made it clear that a concerted and and (b) each (i) non-departmental public body and (ii) executive agency for which his Department is responsible in 2009. sustained effort from partners and stakeholders at national The Insolvency Service spent £155,584.50 on external consultants and local levels would be required to bring the Learning and advisers in 2009. Revolution vision to life. The new funding and planning arrangements set out in Chapter 4 of The Learning Letter from Tim Moss, dated 15 February 2010: Revolution are playing a key role in this transformation I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary and so from August 2011 the Skills Funding Agency Question tabled 9 February 2010, UIN 317252 to the Minister of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. will channel funding for informal adult learning in local Companies House spent £152,499 on external consultants and or sub-regional areas through identified Lead Accountable advisers in 2009. Bodies. We will invite all local authorities to take part in these new arrangements. Letter from John Alty, dated 16 February 2010: I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office We are working closely with the Local Government to your Parliamentary Question tabled 09 February 2010, to the Association, the Local Education Authorities Forum Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and for the Education of Adults, the Association of Colleges, Skills. Ofsted and other delivery partners to develop a Lead The Intellectual Property Office, an Executive Agency of the Accountable Body model that will enable local authorities Department for Business, Innovation and Skills spent £105,000 to discharge this pivotal leadership role. Accepting the on consultants and advisors in 2009. role of Lead Accountable Body will enable local authorities Letter from Peter Mason, dated 24 February 2010: to better position their own resources alongside those I am responding in respect of the National Measurement of the Skills Funding Agency, as part of a local learning Office to your Parliamentary Question asking the Minister of infrastructure. This in turn will help to promote the State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, how much wider personalisation agenda across a number of fronts, was spent on external consultants and advisers in 2009. and enable other local services, like libraries, to play an Using the OGC definition of those who supply advice related important role in broadening choice for local people. to the Agency’s strategy, structure, management or operations, our records indicate that in the Calendar Year 2009 the National Debit Cards: Protection Measurement Office paid £85,502.10 to external consultants and advisers. Mr. Tom Clarke: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he Energy will bring forward proposals to provide statutory protection to consumers in respect of debit card purchases in Dr. Evan Harris: To ask the Minister of State, circumstances in which a company enters administration Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what without having provided the goods or services purchased. steps he is taking to ensure effective use of the UK’s [314410] expertise in fusion energy research. [318556] Kevin Brennan: As announced in the Consumer White Mr. Lammy: The Engineering and Physical Sciences Paper, ″A Better Deal for Consumers″, in July 2009, the Research Council (EPSRC) has the responsibility for Government is reassessing the regulatory framework the funding of magnetic confinement fusion research for prepayments, and that includes looking at the while the Science and Technology Facilities Council effectiveness of the protection offered by debit cards. A (STFC) funds laser-driven or inertial confinement fusion number of proposals are being considered and the research. Government hope to be in position to announce its EPSRC and STFC have recently updated the Research findings shortly. Council’s strategy for the support of fusion research, assisted by an Expert Group chaired by Professor Keith Departmental Consultants Burnett, Vice-Chancellor of Sheffield University. The Expert Group’s vision for fusion, and the key points of Pete Wishart: To ask the Minister of State, Department the new fusion strategy, have been published on the for Business, Innovation and Skills how much was spent websites of EPSRC and STFC. on external consultants and advisers by (a) his Department and (b) each (i) non-departmental public body and (ii) Erasmus executive agency for which his Department is responsible in 2009. [317252] Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how much the UK Mr. McFadden: Central records indicate that the has contributed to the budget of the Erasmus programme Department paid a total of £6,354,203 in external in each year since 1997. [318665] consultancy fees since its inception (announced on 5 June 2009) to 31 December 2009. Mr. Lammy: The UK makes no direct financial Further details, including provision of non-departmental contribution to the budget of the European Commission’s public body information, could be provided only at Erasmus programme which is funded through the disproportionate cost. Commission’s Lifelong Learning Programme. This I have approached the chief executives of the Insolvency Department (and its predecessors) has paid an annual Service, Companies House, the National Measurement management fee to a national agent, currently the British Office and the Intellectual Property Office and they will Council, to manage the delivery of the programme respond directly to the hon. Member. across the UK on behalf of the Government. 761W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 762W

Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department franchised from a higher education institution to a for Business, Innovation and Skills how many UK further education college has increased between 2006-07 students resident in the UK have participated in the and 2009-10. Erasmus scheme since 1997. [318666] Students franchised from HEIs to FECs Number of Mr. Lammy: The following table shows number of institutions Headcount of UK students who have participated in the Erasmus Academic year franchising to a FEC franchised students scheme since 1997. 2006-07 63 50,140 UK students participating in 2007-08 62 51,340 Academic year Erasmus 2008-09 60 54,095 2009-10 64 63,938 1996/97 10,537 Source: HESES. 1997/98 10,582 1998/99 9,994 Higher Education: Part-time Education 1999/2000 10,056 2000/01 9,020 Mr. Laws: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2001/02 8,475 for Business, Innovation and Skills how many part- 2002/03 7,973 time students are in their (a) first, (b) final and (c) 2003/04 7,539 other year of an undergraduate degree course. [318179] 2004/05 7,214 2005/06 7,131 Mr. Lammy: In the 2008/09 academic year there were 70,195 part-time first degree students in their first year 2006/07 7,235 of study and 135,000 students in any other year of 2007/08 10,278 study. It is not possible to accurately identify final year 2008/09 10,827 students as course timescales can vary, particularly for Source: The European Commission statistics: part-time students. However 36,855 part-time first degree http://ec.europa.eu/education/erasmus/doc920_en.htm students qualified in 2008/09. This will discount students except 2008/09 and 2009/10, where the data is the latest estimates from who completed their final year, but did not qualify. the British Council and is subject to confirmation. Early indications show that in the current academic Motor Vehicles: Government Assistance year (2009/10), 11,302 UK students will take part in Erasmus. Mr. Sarwar: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many vehicles Higher Education: Admissions have been purchased under the Vehicle Scrappage Scheme to date. [318257] Michael Gove: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the Ian Lucas: By 14 February 2010, BIS had received answer of 5 February 2010, Official Report, columns 355,305 orders for new vehicles under the scrappage 605-10W,on higher education: admissions, what proportion scheme. of pupils in receipt of free school meals in 2002-03 who progressed to higher education in 2006-07 attended a Mr. Sarwar: To ask the Minister of State, Department (a) school, (b) further education college and (c) sixth for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has form college before entering higher education. [318404] made of the likely effects of the Vehicle Scrappage Scheme on the volume of carbon dioxide emissions. Mr. Lammy: The information is not available in the [318258] form requested. Ian Lucas: No detailed assessment has been made by Higher Education: Further Education this Department. According to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), average CO2 Mr. Willis: To ask the Minister of State, Department emissions of a car bought through the scheme was for Business, Innovation and Skills which universities 133.3 g/km, almost 10 per cent. below the overall new have withdrawn funding for higher education provided car market average and 26.8 per cent. below the average in further education colleges in (a) 2007-08, (b) figure for a scrapped car. 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10; and if he will make a statement. [318785] Multiple Sclerosis: Research

Kevin Brennan: Following our 2006 White Paper ″Further Mr. Sarwar: To ask the Minister of State, Department Education: Improving Skills, Raising Life Chances″, for Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department the Higher Education Funding Council for England has allocated funding for research to examine whether (HEFCE) introduced a code of practice for franchised there is a causal relationship between chronic cerebrospinal provision of higher education in further education colleges″. venous insufficiency and multiple sclerosis. [318255] HEFCE do not monitor individual franchise agreements between higher education institutions and further education Mr. Lammy: The Medical Research Council (MRC) colleges. However, the data provided in the table show is one of the main agencies through which the Government that the total number of higher education institutions support medical and clinical research. The MRC is an franchising to a further education college has remained independent body which receives its grant-in-aid from fairly constant since 2006-07, while the number of students the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. 763W Written Answers25 FEBRUARY 2010 Written Answers 764W

The MRC spent £3.4 million on research into Multiple on the introduction of a local competition test in planning Sclerosis in 2008-09, but is not currently funding any regulations. [318819] research specifically into chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency (CCSVI). Kevin Brennan: Government need to consider the The MRC always welcomes high quality applications wider implications of this recommendation alongside for support into any aspect of human health. The the Competition Commission’s (CC) detailed analysis. primary considerations in funding decisions are research These are complex issues. I expect to announce my excellence and importance to health; however, high response to the CC ’s recommendation on introducing a quality proposals in areas of particular strategic importance competition test into the UK planning system in due may be given priority in competition for funds. course. The MRC provides opportunities for additional clinical Science: Expenditure research training fellowships through collaborations with Royal Colleges and Charity flinders including the MRC/ Multiple Sclerosis Society Clinical Research Training Mr. Touhig: To ask the Minister of State, Department Fellowships. One fellowship per year is available under for Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of this scheme, aimed at researchers who are involved in the UK’s gross domestic product was spent on research treating patients and who wish to pursue research into and development in science in 2008-09; and what assessment understanding and treatment of multiple sclerosis. he has made of likely trends in such expenditure in the next three financial years. [318146] Details of MRC’s currently funded research can be found in the MRC research portfolio which is accessible Mr. Lammy: The most recent data available is for on the MRC website at: 2007 when gross domestic expenditure on research and http://www.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchPortfolio/index.htm development (GERD) was 1.79 per cent. of gross domestic Retail Trade: Planning Permission product. Data for 2008 is expected to be published by the Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister of State, Department Office for National Statistics in March 2010. for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to The Department has made no assessment of future respond to the Competition Commission’s recommendation outturns for GERD for the period 2009-10 to 2011-12.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 25 February 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 427 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Boiler Scrappage Scheme ...... 439 Microgeneration...... 437 Carbon Emission Reduction (Local Government) . 437 National Grid (East Anglia) ...... 436 Climate Change Research ...... 440 Oil Refining ...... 441 Coal-fired Power Stations ...... 435 Prepayment Meters ...... 438 Fuel Poverty...... 427 Project Discovery ...... 433 Gas Storage...... 430 Topical Questions ...... 442 Gas Storage...... 439 University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit. 441 Greenhouse Gases (India and China)...... 432 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 25 February 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 75WS JUSTICE—continued EU Competitiveness Council ...... 75WS Parole Board Chair ...... 78WS Pleural Plaques ...... 79WS CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 76WS EU Education Council...... 76WS SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 83WS Final Policy on Prosecuting Cases of Encouraging HEALTH...... 77WS and Assisting Suicide ...... 83WS Nutrition Action Plan Delivery Board ...... 77WS TRANSPORT ...... 83WS Bus, Coach and Tram Passenger Champion...... 83WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 77WS Identity Commissioner...... 77WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 84WS Exportability of Disability Benefits...... 84WS JUSTICE...... 78WS Lump Sum Mesothelioma Sufferers...... 85WS Office for Judicial Complaints...... 78WS Right to Control (Trailblazer Sites)...... 86WS PETITION

Thursday 25 February 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .9P Planning and Development (Hampshire)...... 9P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 25 February 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 758W CABINET OFFICE—continued Adult Education ...... 758W Civil Servants: Pay ...... 697W Debit Cards: Protection ...... 759W Departmental Disabled Staff...... 698W Departmental Consultants...... 759W Departmental Internet ...... 698W Energy...... 760W Employment ...... 699W Erasmus ...... 760W Employment Tribunals Service...... 699W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 761W Government Departments: Advertising ...... 699W Higher Education: Further Education ...... 761W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Chesterfield...... 699W Higher Education: Part-time Education...... 762W New Businesses: Essex ...... 700W Motor Vehicles: Government Assistance...... 762W Personal Income ...... 701W Multiple Sclerosis: Research...... 762W Political Parties: Copyright ...... 701W Retail Trade: Planning Permission ...... 763W Public Bodies: Pay...... 702W Science: Expenditure...... 764W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 685W CABINET OFFICE...... 695W Children: Day Care ...... 685W 10 Downing Street: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 695W Children: Poverty ...... 687W Cancer: Essex...... 695W Children: Social Services...... 688W Census ...... 696W Children’s Centres: East Sussex ...... 688W Charities: Hizb ut-Tahrir ...... 696W Children’s Centres: Essex...... 689W Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Children’s Centres: Feltham...... 690W continued GCSE ...... 690W GCHQ: Internet...... 705W Home Education...... 691W Iran...... 705W Pre-school Education...... 691W Marshall Aid Commemoration Commission ...... 706W Schools: Essex...... 692W Schools: Salford ...... 693W HEALTH...... 742W Schools: Vocational Guidance...... 694W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 742W Social Services: Doncaster ...... 694W Cancer: Health Services ...... 741W Vetting: Local Education Authorities...... 694W Cancer: Nurses...... 743W Departmental Finance ...... 743W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 712W Departmental Statistics...... 744W Council Housing: Property Transfer ...... 712W Derriford Hospital ...... 744W Empty Property: Lancashire ...... 714W Down’s Syndrome: Dementia ...... 744W Fire Brigades Union...... 714W Hackney...... 744W Fire Services: Emergency Calls...... 714W Health: Islington...... 748W Housing: Equality...... 715W Health Services: Gloucestershire ...... 746W Housing: Finance...... 715W Health Services: Worcestershire ...... 747W Local Government: Bank Services ...... 716W Home Care Services ...... 751W New Deal for Communities...... 716W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 752W Planning Permission ...... 718W Independent Sector Treatment Centres Social Rented Housing...... 718W Programme ...... 752W Sustainable Communities Act 2007...... 719W Leukaemia: Drugs ...... 752W Sustainable Development...... 720W National Care Service ...... 753W Travelling People: Caravan Sites...... 720W NHS...... 753W NHS: Capital Expenditure...... 753W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 660W NHS: Complaints ...... 754W National Heritage Memorial Fund ...... 660W NHS Direct...... 753W Public Libraries: Birmingham...... 660W NHS: Finance ...... 754W Radio ...... 660W NHS: Manpower ...... 755W Nurses...... 755W DEFENCE...... 674W Nurses: Cancer...... 755W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 674W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 756W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 674W Royal Liverpool Hospital...... 756W Armed Forces: Manpower ...... 674W Social Services...... 756W Departmental Manpower...... 675W Strokes: Children ...... 756W Ex-servicemen: Military Decorations...... 676W Tetra: Health Hazards...... 758W Hercules Aircraft ...... 676W Tuberculosis: Drugs ...... 758W Incapacity Benefit: Chelmsford...... 676W Iraq and Afghanistan...... 677W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 707W Iraq Committee of Inquiry ...... 677W Automatic Number Plate Recognition ...... 707W Military Aircraft ...... 678W Children: Abuse ...... 707W Nimrod Aircraft...... 678W Crimes Against the Person: Sevenoaks...... 707W Nuclear Submarines...... 680W Identity Cards ...... 708W Identity Cards: Young People ...... 708W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 661W National Identity Register...... 708W Electoral Register: Expenditure...... 661W Passports: Older People ...... 708W Police: Finance...... 709W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 670W Police: Manpower ...... 709W Carbon Capture and Storage ...... 671W Prosecutions: EU Action...... 710W Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease...... 671W Rape: Children...... 710W Coal: Electricity ...... 672W Tetra: Health Hazards...... 711W Energy Management Strategy ...... 671W Theft: Motor Vehicles ...... 711W Environmental Technologies ...... 672W Vetting ...... 712W Gas Storage...... 671W Natural Gas: Industrial Disputes ...... 672W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 681W Warm Front Scheme: Eaga ...... 670W Civil Society Challenge Fund...... 681W Haiti: Earthquakes...... 681W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Overseas Aid: Asylum...... 682W AFFAIRS...... 659W Rwanda: HIV Infection...... 682W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 659W Poultry: Animal Feed...... 660W JUSTICE...... 662W Industrial Disputes: Essex...... 662W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 702W Prisoners: Nationality ...... 662W Antarctic...... 702W Prisoners: Voting Rights ...... 663W Bletchley Park...... 702W Prisons: Drugs ...... 663W British Nationals Abroad: Prisoners ...... 703W Public Sector: Disclosure of Information...... 663W Burma: Asylum...... 703W Youth Justice Board ...... 665W David Proctor ...... 704W Departmental Disabled Staff...... 704W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 673W Dubai: Interpol ...... 705W Departmental Pay ...... 673W Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND—continued TREASURY—continued Departmental Travel ...... 673W Non-Domestic Rates...... 684W Public Expenditure...... 685W OLYMPICS ...... 669W Welfare Tax Credits: Overpayments ...... 685W Departmental Disabled Staff...... 669W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 721W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 669W A4e: Employment ...... 721W Olympic Games: Canada ...... 670W Asbestos: Schools...... 721W Overseas Aid: Expenditure...... 670W Children: Maintenance ...... 722W Cold Weather Payments: Tamworth...... 722W PRIME MINISTER ...... 669W Council Tax Benefits: Kingston ...... 723W 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver ...... 669W Departmental Contracts ...... 724W Official Residences ...... 669W Departmental Disclosure of Information...... 724W Departmental ICT ...... 725W SCOTLAND...... 661W Departmental Manpower...... 725W Carbon Sequestration ...... 661W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 726W Trade: Scotland...... 661W Future Jobs Fund...... 726W Housing Benefit ...... 727W TRANSPORT ...... 665W Housing Benefit: Scotland ...... 729W Channel Tunnel: Safety...... 665W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 729W Departmental Buildings...... 666W Jobcentre Plus ...... 730W Departmental Disabled Staff...... 666W Jobcentre Plus: Disclosure of Information...... 730W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Snow and Jobcentre Plus: Termination of Employment ...... 730W Ice...... 665W Jobcentre Plus: Training...... 732W Electric Vehicles ...... 667W Maximus Employment and Training...... 733W Government Car and Despatch Agency: Internet .. 667W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 734W Motor Vehicles: Safety...... 667W Pension Credit...... 735W Motor Vehicles: Testing ...... 668W Pensions...... 736W Official Cars...... 668W Poverty...... 736W Railways: Fines ...... 668W Social Security Benefits: Armed Forces...... 737W Social Security Benefits: Disabled ...... 737W TREASURY ...... 682W Social Security Benefits: Ex-servicemen ...... 738W Banks: Loans ...... 682W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 738W Dunfermline Building Society...... 683W Unemployment Benefits...... 739W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 684W Unemployment Benefits: Medical Examinations ... 740W Members: Correspondence ...... 684W Woolworths: Redundancy ...... 741W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 25 February 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 427] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

Business of the House [Col. 449] Statement—(Ms Harman)

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 465]

Welsh Affairs [Col. 468] General debate

E.ON Call Centre (Rayleigh) [Col. 551] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Rail Fares and Franchises [Col. 141WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 75WS]

Petition [Col. 9P] Observation

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 659W] [see index inside back page]