Independent Investigations Office

Second Session, 40th Parliament

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD)

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO REVIEW THE INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIONS OFFICE

Victoria Monday, May 26, 2014 Issue No. 3

MIKE MORRIS, MLA, CHAIR

ISSN 2292-8111 (Print) ISSN 2292-812X (Online)

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO REVIEW THE INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIONS OFFICE

Victoria Monday, May 26, 2014

Chair: * Mike Morris (Prince George–Mackenzie BC Liberal)

Deputy Chair: * Spencer Chandra Herbert (Vancouver–West End NDP)

Members: Dr. Doug Bing (Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows BC Liberal) * Kathy Corrigan (Burnaby–Deer Lake NDP) * Scott Fraser (Alberni–Pacifi c Rim NDP) * Scott Hamilton (Delta North BC Liberal) * Dr. Darryl Plecas (Abbotsford South BC Liberal) * Jackie Tegart (Fraser-Nicola BC Liberal)

* denotes member present

Clerk: Susan Sourial

Committee Staff : Ron Wall (Committee Researcher)

Witnesses: Jay Chalke (Ministry of Justice) Jamie Deitch (Ministry of Justice) Sarah Mason (Ministry of Justice) Anita Nadziejko (Ministry of Justice)

CONTENTS

Special Committee to Review the Independent Investigations Offi ce

Monday, May 26, 2014

Page

Briefi ng: Independent Investigations Offi ce ...... 11 J. Chalke J. Deitch

Committee Meeting Schedule ...... 20

MINUTES SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO REVIEW THE INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIONS OFFICE

Monday, May 26, 2014 10:30 a.m. Douglas Fir Committee Room Parliament Buildings, Victoria, B.C.

Present: Mike Morris, MLA (Chair); Spencer Chandra Herbert, MLA (Deputy Chair); Kathy Corrigan, MLA; Scott Fraser, MLA; Scott Hamilton, MLA; Dr. Darryl Plecas, MLA; Jackie Tegart, MLA

Unavoidably Absent: Dr. Doug Bing, MLA

1. Th e Chair called the Committee to order at 10:32 a.m.

2. Th e following witnesses appeared before the Committee and answered questions: Ministry of Justice, Justice Services Branch • Jay Chalke, QC, Assistant Deputy Minister • Jamie Deitch, Executive Director, Criminal Justice and Legal Access Policy Division • Anita Nadziejko, Senior Policy Advisor, Criminal Justice and Legal Access Policy Division • Sarah Mason, Research Offi cer, Criminal Justice and Legal Access Policy Division

3. Th e Committee discussed future meeting dates.

4. Th e Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair at 11:48 a.m.

Mike Morris, MLA Susan Sourial Chair Committee Clerk

MONDAY, MAY 26, 2014 Briefi ng: Independent Investigations Offi ce Th e committee met at 10:32 a.m. J. Chalke: My presentation is up on the screen behind [M. Morris in the chair.] you, and I believe you have a hard copy in front of you. British Columbia's independent investigations offi ce M. Morris (Chair): Well, good morning, everybody. began operations in September 2012. Th e Police Act re- We'll convene the meeting on the Special Committee quires this committee to undertake a review of the IIO. to Review the Independent Investigations Offi ce. Today I'm pleased to provide you today with a detailed over- we're pleased to have some representatives from Justice view of that offi ce. here to give us a little bit of background on it. [1035] Maybe, Jay, I could get you to introduce yourself and Specifi cally, Jamie Deitch and I will discuss the ori- your team to the committee members. gin of the independent investigations offi ce, its mandate and the two matters important to you as you carry out J. Chalke: Good morning. My name is Jay Chalke. your review: the offi ce's operations and administration I'm the assistant deputy minister of the justice services and its progress towards civilianization. I'd be pleased branch in the Ministry of Justice. Our branch has policy to answer any questions that you have at the conclusion responsibility for the independent investigations offi ce. of my presentation. It's important to note that the IIO operates independ- Th e formation of the IIO was based on recommen- ently from the ministry due to its role. dations made by two public inquiries held over the last With me this morning making this presentation, to my seven years. Th ese inquiries and their recommendations left , your right, is Jamie Deitch, the executive director of attempted to address public concerns about the police in- the criminal justice and legal access policy division. Also vestigating themselves. in attendance are Sarah Mason, research offi cer, and Anita In March 2007 Justice William Davies was appointed Nadziejko, senior policy adviser in the Ministry of Justice. to lead the commission of inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the 1998 death of Frank Paul. Mr. Paul had M. Morris (Chair): Great, thanks very much. We'll been arrested in the Downtown Eastside by Vancouver get our board to make their presentations. Scott, you can police offi cers for being intoxicated in public. He was lead off with your introduction. taken to the VPD's jail facility, but several minutes later he was taken from the lockup, placed in a police van and S. Hamilton: Okay. I'm Scott Hamilton. I'm the MLA thereaft er left in an alley in East Vancouver. Mr. Paul's for Delta North. Pleased to meet with you and learn as body was found at the same location early the follow- much as I can about the IIO. ing morning. Justice Davies's inquiry focused on the Vancouver po- D. Plecas: Darryl Plecas. I'm the MLA for Abbotsford lice department and recommended that British Columbia South and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister develop a civilian-based criminal investigation model for of Justice. the investigation of serious police-related incidents that occur in municipalities policed by the 11 municipal po- J. Tegart: Jackie Tegart, MLA for Fraser-Nicola. lice departments. Following the death in late 2007 of Robert Dziekanski, S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): Spencer who died shortly after a conducted energy weapon Chandra Herbert, vice-Chair of the committee and MLA was used against him by the RCMP at the Vancouver for Vancouver–West End. International Airport, government appointed the hon. Th omas Braidwood in February 2008 to head the com- K. Corrigan: Kathy Corrigan, MLA for Burnaby–Deer mission of inquiry into his death. Lake and Justice co-critic with Leonard Krog. Justice Braidwood built on the recommendation made by Justice Davies and expanded it to include prov- S. Fraser: Scott Fraser. I'm the MLA for Alberni– incewide jurisdiction — that is, municipal police de- Pacifi c Rim. Th anks for doing this and helping to start partments and the RCMP. Government accepted the us off in this process of investigation. recommendations of the 2010 Braidwood report and committed to creating a new civilian-led unit to in- M. Morris (Chair): And we have Ron Wall, our man dependently investigate all municipal police and RCMP- about the House. related deaths and serious incidents across B.C. Jay, we can start off , then. You can start with your pres- I want to now turn to the broader context regarding entation, and we can follow that with any questions that civilian oversight of policing in the province. Prior to the the committee has. independent investigations offi ce being established, there Independent 12 Investigations Office Review Monday, May 26, 2014 were two civilian agencies in British Columbia that pro- police on secondment, as in Alberta. However, investi- vided police oversight. gators can have a policing background. Th e director can One is the Police Complaint Commissioner, who is an never have been a police offi cer. independent offi cer of the provincial Legislature whose The Ontario SIU investigates the circumstances of offi ce oversees the investigation of complaints about the serious injuries and deaths that may have resulted from conduct of municipal police offi cers and departments in criminal off ences committed by police offi cers as well as British Columbia. It does not conduct criminal investi- allegations of sexual assault. Th e jurisdiction is limited gations. to on-duty conduct. Th e unit's jurisdiction extends to all Th e other is the Commission for Public Complaints police in Ontario. Against the RCMP, an independent civilian agency cre- Since the IIO was established in B.C., two more juris- ated by the federal parliament to ensure that public com- dictions have set up oversight agencies: Manitoba and plaints made about the conduct of RCMP members are Nova Scotia. Again, there are features of these agencies examined fairly and impartially. Th e commission is not that are unique. part of the RCMP, and it also does not conduct criminal Manitoba established its Independent Investigation investigations. Unit by legislation, and the civilian executive director With the passing of Bill C-42 in June 2013, a new was appointed in March 2013. Staff may be civilian or Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the seconded police members from Manitoba or elsewhere. RCMP will, when it comes into force, be created to re- Th e unit investigates incidents of serious injury or death place the existing Commission for Public Complaints that may have resulted from an action of a police offi cer Against the RCMP. Most notably, the bill sets out the au- from any police force in the province. thority for the new CRCC to have broad access to infor- Nova Scotia's Serious Incident Response Team was mation in the control or possession of the RCMP. established in April 2012. It investigates all matters that Th e CRCC's investigative powers are also set out in the involve death, serious injury, sexual assault, domestic bill. It will have the authority to conduct joint complaint violence or other matters of signifi cant public interest investigations with other police complaints bodies and that have arisen from the actions of a police offi cer. Th e to undertake policy reviews of the RCMP. director cannot have served as a police offi cer. Staff on Within British Columbia and as a result of the 2012 Nova Scotia's team include civilian investigators and se- amendments to the Police Act, the director of police ser- conded police offi cers. vices, an offi cial of the Ministry of Justice, has the author- British Columbia's independent investigations of- ity to set standards for offi cer conduct, to be followed by fi ce is unique but seems to share more similarities with all police forces in the province. Ontario's Special Investigation Unit than the other juris- I want to turn now to providing an overview of or- dictions. ganizations in other provinces that are analogous to Turning now to the implementation phase of the the role of the IIO. When developing the IIO in British IIO here in the province. Th e commitment to establish Columbia, there were two existing models of civilian-led the IIO was implemented through Bill 12, the Police response teams in Canada that formed part of the review Amendment Act, 2011. Th e bill was considered by the and planning that we undertook: (1) the Alberta Serious Legislative Assembly in May 2011 and received royal as- Incident Response Team, and (2) the Ontario Special sent on June 2, 2011. Investigations Unit. Evidence and the lessons learned A transition team was put in place by government from these two jurisdictions informed the planning in in November 2011 to develop the model for a civilian- British Columbia. Each of these two models has its own based agency appropriate for B.C. and to prepare for unique features. the appointment of the chief civilian director, or CCD. [1040] Following the appointment of Richard Rosenthal as the Alberta's agency was established by a minister's order chief civilian director, the transition team assisted him and became operational in 2008. Th e Alberta Serious in his responsibility to establish the new offi ce and hire Incident Response Team conducts investigations into in- the required staff . cidents involving serious injury or death that may have From late 2011 until September 10, 2012, the IIO was resulted from the action of a police offi cer, or a complaint in a period of transition, from planning and development alleging that such an incident has occurred. It has juris- to implementation and becoming operational. During diction over all police in Alberta and is currently led by this period an organizational structure was designed, a a civilian director. It uses civilian and seconded mem- budget was developed, staff were hired and trained, a bers from municipal police agencies and the RCMP as memorandum of understanding between the IIO and its investigators. police departments was negotiated, offi ce space was se- Ontario's Special Investigation Unit has been in place cured, and various special equipment was acquired. In for over 20 years. It was established by legislation and dif- short, all of the essential arrangements and elements of fers from Alberta in that it does not use currently serving the IIO were put in place. Independent Monday, May 26, 2014 Investigations Office Review 13

Th e offi ce became fully operational on September 10, and the fi rst independent monitor for civilian oversight 2012. Th e offi ce is located in Surrey, in what had been va- of law enforcement agencies in the city and county of cant government-leased space. Th e IIO's immediate and Denver, Colorado. primary focus was operational readiness in order to carry Immediately upon arrival in B.C., Mr. Rosenthal set out fair, unbiased and competent investigations once the about to establish linkages and working relationships act came into force. with stakeholders and participants in the justice sector Turning to the mandate, the British Columbia govern- in communities across the province. ment accepted Justice Braidwood's recommendation to I'm now going to turn this over to my colleague Mr. create a civilian investigative body, and careful considera- Deitch, who will describe the IIO investigation process. tion was given in the development of the IIO's mandate. Th e IIO's mandate is set out in section 38.09 of the Police J. Deitch: Th ank you, Mr. Chair, Deputy Chair and Act. It is to conduct investigations of death or serious members of the committee. I'm going to broadly be talk- harm involving police offi cers in B.C. and to determine ing about the area that the assistant deputy minister re- if the conduct was criminal. ferred to as operations and administration and progress [1045] towards civilianization. "Serious harm" is defi ned in the Police Act as "injury Th e fi rst part is the IIO investigative process. I antici- that (a) may result in death, (b) may cause serious dis- pate you will hear in more detail about this when you fi gurement, or (c) may cause substantial loss or impair- meet with Mr. Rosenthal and his senior staff at the in- ment of mobility of the body as a whole or of the function dependent investigations offi ce, but we thought it would of any limb or organ." be helpful for you to at least have a bit of an overview. As I mentioned earlier, government established the IIO When an incident of death or serious harm occurs, po- through amendments to the Police Act, in order to give lice offi cers are required, in accordance with the Police the agency access to the necessary information and tools Act, to notify the IIO. Th at obligation is set out at section that are critical to successful investigations. Th e Police 38.09 of the Police Act. Chiefs of police and the Police Act gives the IIO jurisdiction over offi cers in B.C., both Complaint Commissioner also have the obligation and while they are on duty and off duty. Th is is unique to the must also notify the IIO if they become aware of an in- IIO when compared to the analogous bodies in other cident. Th at obligation is set out in the following section, provinces I described earlier. section 38.10. Under the act, for the purpose of the IIO, an offi cer in- As Mr. Chalke referred to, a memorandum of under- cludes offi cers appointed as special provincial constables, standing between the IIO and the RCMP and all munici- including transit police; the Stl'atl'imx tribal police, locat- pal police in British Columbia has established a protocol ed in the Lillooet area; municipal constables; and mem- for all aspects of investigations. Th is includes notifying bers of the RCMP. the IIO at the time of an incident, securing the scene until Section 44 of the Police Act allows the Minister of such time as the IIO can be present, designating subject Justice or the director of police services to order the IIO and witness offi cers — subject offi cers being those who to undertake a special investigation in a case that falls are anticipated to have been directly involved, and wit- outside of the IIO's mandate where it would be in the ness offi cers who were present at the time of the inci- public interest to do so. Th is provides an ability to have dent — as well as dealing with the aspect of concurrent the IIO do an investigation outside its ordinary mandate investigations. in exceptional or unusual circumstances. Section 38.11 requires that when an IIO investigation As I mentioned, the IIO is headed by the chief civil- is completed, the CCD must make a report to Crown ian director — who, as required by legislation, can never counsel if he believes that an offi cer has committed an have served as a police offi cer. Th e CCD position is a fi ve- off ence. Crown counsel is then charged with the respon- year order-in-council appointment with the possibility of sibility, in accordance with the usual charge assessment reappointment to a second fi ve-year term. Th e chief civil- process established under the Crown Counsel Act in ian director may not serve more than two terms. British Columbia, to determine whether criminal char- The first CCD is Richard Rosenthal, who was ap- ges would be approved. pointed on January 9, 2012. Mr. Rosenthal was hired [1050] through a merit-based process in accordance with the In situations where the chief civilian director comes B.C. Public Service Act and brings to his position exten- to the conclusion that an offi cer has not committed an sive experience in civilian oversight of law enforcement. off ence, he is permitted under the Police Act, by section For 15 years Mr. Rosenthal served as a Los Angeles 38.121, to publicly report the reasons underlying his deci- county deputy district attorney, where he worked in the sion. Th at was an amendment to the original Bill 12 pro- central trials and fraud divisions and the special inves- visions that was specifi cally requested by Mr. Rosenthal tigations division. He was the fi rst director of the in- aft er he took over his role in January of 2012. dependent police review division of Portland, Oregon, Th e legislation was changed to allow for this level of Independent 14 Investigations Office Review Monday, May 26, 2014

transparency. Th e IIO provides regular updates on the pletely civilian. Because in essence, that is exactly what status of investigations whenever possible, so long as the independent investigations offi ce is: a major crime those updates will not in any way interfere with the in- investigation unit. vestigation. Th ese are made available through its public Justice Braidwood suggested a time period of fi ve years to website, through reports and updated information. achieve the goal of civilianization. Th e legislation does not It's important to note that these public reports, once set out any specifi c timeline. It anticipates, however, that the investigation has concluded, are meant to set out the eventually a fully civilian investigative body will be created. reasons that the chief civilian director comes to the con- The independent investigations office is currently clusion that an offi cer has not committed an off ence. Th ey building on the expertise of its civilian investigative do not address issues of potential offi cer misconduct, nor staff . It's important to remember, however, that the IIO do they deal with the policies or procedures of the po- conducts investigations to determine whether some of lice agency. Th ose are not within the mandate of the chief the most serious off ences in the Criminal Code have civilian director or the independent investigations offi ce. occurred, and it is necessary that those investigators However, the chief civilian director may choose, in have the skills and the experience required to under- appropriate cases, to refer a case to either the direc- take this type of work. Th is type of expertise can only tor of police services for the province, the Offi ce of the be developed either within the IIO or acquired through Police Complaint Commissioner or the Commission staffi ng with former police offi cers from outside British for Public Complaints Against the RCMP to consider Columbia. any issues that arise in the course of the IIO investiga- [1055] tion. Th ey share their investigation with those agencies Th e complement of investigators as of September, with in those cases. the additional hiring that is currently underway, will ren- If I could then turn to, specifi cally, IIO investigators. der a combination of 46 percent civilian investigators and Th e Police Act sets out, again, the criteria around who 54 percent former police offi cers. It should also be noted may serve as an investigator in the independent investi- in considering that goal toward obtaining civilianization gations offi ce. It's section 38.06. Specifi cally, investigators that forensic analysts and traffi c reconstruction experts for the independent investigations offi ce must not have come primarily from a policing background, certainly in served as police offi cers in British Columbia within the this province, due to accreditation requirements. past fi ve years. At the start of the IIO, when it came into operation in Currently the independent investigations offi ce em- September 2012, the breakdown was 35 percent civilian ploys a blend of civilian investigators and former police investigators and 65 percent former police offi cers. offi cers. Most of those former police offi cers have never As I've indicated, the IIO is actively working toward served in British Columbia. Th ere are four investigative becoming a civilian organization. Th at is a mandate that teams, with each including a team leader, or a director, has been recognized by the chief civilian director and his and fi ve investigators who work under that individual's senior staff . It recently appointed its fi rst civilian team leadership. director into that role, and in the spring of 2014 the IIO Th ere's also a specialized team of four investigators has hired three new civilian investigators to fi ll vacan- who have experience in forensic analysis and traffi c re- cies that have occurred over the time period. It is now in construction. Th e chief civilian director also has the abil- the process of concluding the hiring process for an addi- ity to retain consultants, experts or specialists who may tional three investigators, all of whom are anticipated to be needed for a specifi c or particular investigation. be civilians and to start work by September. If I could then turn to the issue of progress towards Th e ministry supports the progress of the independent becoming civilian. B.C.'s model, as Mr. Chalke has indi- investigations offi ce toward becoming civilian. Ministry cated, is unique in many ways. One way in which it's representatives participate in hiring panels and provide unique is in the statutory goal to eventually become en- support in the course of organizational development for tirely civilian, consistent with the recommendations of the organization. the public inquiries. Th e ministry will continue to monitor the progress the Government took into consideration both Justice independent investigations offi ce makes towards civilian- Braidwood and Justice Davies recommendations that ization through requirements which are set out in the let- the IIO should be entirely civilian. Justice Braidwood put ter of expectations between the Deputy Attorney General it this way — meaning that: "None of its management, and the chief civilian director, which will be referred to supervisory staff or investigators should have served any- later, as well as the annual reports process, which is set where in Canada as a police offi cer." out in the statute in section 38.12. Th at's the Police Act. Justice Braidwood, however, noted that IIO investiga- Th e ministry also intends to undertake a review of the tors would need to have the skills and experience neces- independent investigations offi ce in 2016, prior to the sary to conduct major crime investigations, and therefore, term of the current chief civilian director expiring, in or- it would take time before the IIO could become com- der to look further at the progress towards civilianization. Independent Monday, May 26, 2014 Investigations Office Review 15

If I can now turn to some statistical information that J. Chalke: I just want to turn now to describe a bit sets out the operations and administration of the in- around the transparency and accountability structure dependent investigations today. Th is slide depicts the for the IIO. Th e independent investigations offi ce has information on the number of cases that the independ- specifi c accountability requirements and reporting rela- ent investigations offi ce has actually investigated since it tionships. Justice Braidwood recommended that the IIO became operational. Th e table covers the period from its be established within the Ministry of Attorney General, commencement, September 10, 2012, through to March as the ministry was known at the time. Th e ministry later 31, 2014. Th e column on the left -hand side refl ects a par- merged with the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor tial year. Th e second column, the middle column, refl ects General to form the Ministry of Justice. a full year of investigations. Th e chief civilian director is ultimately accountable to In that fi rst period the IIO investigated 16 cases, eight the Attorney General, and the position is functionally of which involved fatalities, eight of which involved ser- accountable to the Deputy Attorney General, through ious harm. A further 58 cases were investigated over the a letter of expectation, in order to maintain independ- following 12-month period ending March of 2014, with ence and separation from other policing matters that fall a breakdown of nine fatalities and 49 incidents of ser- within the responsibility of the Deputy Solicitor General. ious harm. A letter of expectation has been signed by the chief Since it became operational in September 2012, the civilian director and the Deputy Attorney General, chief civilian director has referred 19 cases to Crown which sets out expectations with respect to communica- counsel. Of those, to date three have been approved for tions, policy development, information sharing, public charges. Some are still under review, I might add, at this reporting and compliance with fi nancial management point. legislation and government policy in that regard, de- If I could then turn to, specifi cally — looking at it velopment of performance measures and other admin- from another context — the cases from 2013-14, since istrative matters. In addition, the independent investigations offi ce is re- that is the only full year of information. In that year the quired by the Police Act to provide an annual report to independent investigations offi ce received notifi cations, the Attorney General that compiles statistical informa- from the agencies it's responsible for oversight, of 223 tion respecting the number, frequency, types and out- potential incidents. Of those, 118 warranted a response, comes of investigations and any trends related to that meaning that the IIO undertook an initial review to de- information. termine whether they should assert jurisdiction over the Th e letter of expectation outlines further content re- case. Of those 118, 58 actually received a full investiga- quirements of the annual report. Specifi cally, the letter tion, as set out on the previous slide. of expectation requires a message from the chief civilian [1100] director; a description of the IIO's structure, mandate, Of the 58 investigations opened in 2013-14, 40 had purpose and principles; a description of the investigative been completed and closed by March 31, 2014. Out of process; development of performance measure indica- those 40, 13 cases were concluded by a report to Crown tors; and basic budget information. counsel, and 27 cases were concluded by a public report The letter of expectation further requires that the from the chief civilian director. Eighteen of those inves- chief civilian director submit the report to the Attorney tigations were still ongoing at the end of March. General by May 31 of each year for the fi scal year pre- Finally, if I can speak to the budget for the independent ceding. Th e 2012-13 annual report was received by gov- investigations offi ce, as you can see by the third column ernment and made public, and another report will be under 2014-15, the budget as refl ected in the estimates received by May 31 — that would be later this week — for this current fi scal year is $8.1 million. Th at is a reduc- as stated in the letter of expectation and will be released tion from the previous year of $2 million. Th is budget, shortly thereaft er. the current year, is the product of good fi scal manage- So to simply sum up, the legislation to establish the IIO ment, and budget changes like these are not uncommon received royal assent in June 2011. Th e chief civilian direc- in new offi ces or organizations. tor was hired in January 2012, and the offi ce became fully The IIO actually has had a lower-than-anticipated operational in September 2012. Th e IIO conducts crim- caseload volume during its fi rst two years of operation, inal investigations of incidents of serious harm or death and implementation costs were not as great as had been involving police offi cers in British Columbia and has, to anticipated. Th is has resulted in signifi cant surpluses date, established itself as a credible investigative agency. in each of the fi rst two years of operation, leading to Th e IIO is making progress towards the ambitious and the resulting reduction in the overall budget. However, unique-in-Canada goal of becoming completely civilian. the budget for this year still represents an increase of Th is will take some time as the experience of investigators $950,000 over actual expenditures in 2013-14. without a policing background increases over the years. So if I can turn it back to Mr. Chalke. Th e ministry will continue to monitor the progress of the Independent 16 Investigations Office Review Monday, May 26, 2014

IIO to becoming fully civilian and intends to undertake this point by Crown counsel. To my knowledge, none of a review by 2016. those cases has proceeded to conclusion, so there have Th ank you. We'd be happy to answer any questions been no convictions to date that I'm aware of. that you might have. [1105] K. Corrigan: Actually, I have three questions. My understanding is that you said that there were three va- M. Morris (Chair): Great. Th anks very much. cancies that have been fi lled by civilians in the last year. Th at means that three people quit the offi ce out of 20. Is S. Fraser: Th at overview was very helpful. that correct? Was it seen as a transitional time? On the progress towards becoming completely civilian, we've seen the anticipated numbers for September of this year. J. Deitch: Th ere have actually been a total of six vacan- Since there was no timeline established under the act, al- cies out of the original investigative team of 32, I believe. though Justice Braidwood did suggest fi ve years, just so that Th at includes the four teams plus the forensic and traffi c we can follow the progress…. In its inception, say September reconstruction experts. Plus there are some other inves- 2012, what was the makeup there of civilian and police back- tigative roles. For example, there's an aff ected-persons ground members, just so we can see if we're progressing? investigator who actually deals with the aff ected person Further to that, is there a policy within the IIO of part- or the family of an aff ected person — the person who has nering trained police investigators, those members that received the incident or has been the recipient of what- have that background, with non–police background ever has occurred. members? Is there a set policy so that that training, the [1110] experience in investigation, actually occurs? In any event, there were vacancies that occurred during that time period. People move along. People come J. Chalke: In terms of the statistical part of your ques- to the conclusion, perhaps, that this isn't what they real- tion, when the IIO was fi rst established, the complement ly anticipated. What the independent investigations of- of civilian investigators was approximately 35 percent. As fi ce has done in the course of that is that they've actually Mr. Deitch indicated, by September, when there are some made the determination that for all of those roles they current competitions underway, the civilian complement will attempt to seek civilian investigators where they're will be at about 46 percent. properly qualifi ed to do the work. Progress is being made. You're right; there's no specifi c timeline in the legislation. I think that refl ects the unique K. Corrigan: Can I do one more follow-up on that? challenge that the IIO has, of any such investigative body in Canada. Really, the fi rst goal is to conduct evidence- M. Morris (Chair): Go ahead. based, fair, competent, professional investigations. While there's an aspirational goal to become completely civil- K. Corrigan: Th e 46 percent civilian and 54 percent ian, I think there was recognition that there needed to be former police offi cers that we're at, at this point, or by fl exibility in terms of how long that took. September, I guess — that's simply for the investigative In terms of how the IIO operates, it works in inves- staff ? And then do you know what the breakdown is for tigative teams, which is standard with major case man- the other staff ? You're talking, then, about the recon- agement. Th ose teams are comprised both of individuals struction. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? who have a policing background and civilian investiga- Reconstruction experts and so on are apart from that? tors. Th ey work together. To answer your question, that is the plan that they're J. Deitch: Th e other staff would be largely adminis- doing. I'm sure that when you speak with the chief civil- trative staff and support staff , legal staff — all of those ian director, he can give you more details about that, but non-investigative roles. But it doesn't include…. Th e in- that is the staffi ng model. As Mr. Deitch indicated, the vestigators include those who do forensic analysis, traf- offi ce has just appointed its fi rst civilian team director in fi c reconstruction. charge of one of those teams. J. Chalke: Th ere are a number, for example, of evi- K. Corrigan: I wanted to just get a clarifi cation. I think dence clerks. One needs to take careful custody and en- you probably said it, but I wasn't really clear. sure control over evidence from the time it's received by Two questions. Th e fi rst one is: how many actual char- the IIO until the conclusion of any subsequent crimin- ges have there been? You have reports to Crown counsel. al proceedings. Th ere are a number of staff who do that How many actual charges have there been, and have there sort of work. been any convictions yet? S. Hamilton: What I'd like to talk about just briefl y is on J. Deitch: Th ere have been three charges approved at the sixth page of your handout here, of your PowerPoint Independent Monday, May 26, 2014 Investigations Office Review 17

presentation — the bottom. Th ere was quite a ramp-up but that's certainly a remedy if there was concern for between 2012 and 2013 in the number of serious-harm whatever reason about an IIO investigation. investigations. I'm curious what precipitated that. Was that actual- J. Deitch: If I could just augment, there is also a com- ly a change in the criteria as to how you evaluate them plaints process for the IIO with respect to both conduct or choose what constitutes? Or could it potentially be a investigations as well as the potential — if there was ever better understanding of the public that the offi ce exists an allegation of any criminal wrongdoing by anyone at and maybe they have some recourse? Maybe you'd like the IIO. So there is a fully developed process with respect to explain that. to both those processes. Certainly, there have been no allegations of any crim- J. Chalke: I guess the fi rst answer is that the prior fi s- inal conduct. I'm certain of that. In terms of internal in- cal year represents a partial fi scal year. vestigations around conduct and more labour-relations aspects, I wouldn't specifi cally have knowledge about S. Hamilton: Oh, I'm sorry. Now, then? that. But that's certainly something that you could follow up with the chief civilian director. J. Chalke: Th e offi ce came into existence on September 10. Th at doesn't account for 100 percent of the change S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): A question I that you note, but it does account for some portion had was related to the civilians that do the investigations. thereof. I understand that one of the concerns, and something I'm pretty confi dent, given the nature of the willing- you mentioned as well, was that accreditation can be a ness of police to report…. Th ere's a very high recognition challenge. Where are we fi nding these civilian investiga- by police services in British Columbia of the importance tors? What kind of training are they getting? If we are go- of reporting to the IIO, and the IIO receives many reports ing to get to full civilian investigations, then I think that's that don't meet the threshold for the IIO. Frankly, it ap- something we need to pay attention to. I've been told that pears that if there's any sort of question about reporting, that's a challenge. I'm just curious how that works now. it's overreporting by police services. Th at's the balance that I think everybody wants to see J. Chalke: It absolutely is a challenge. You're quite cor- occur so that the IIO can then make the determination rect. I think there's a recognition that at least some of the as to whether or not the matter reaches the threshold that aspects of the development of civilian staff will occur at involves an IIO investigation. the IIO. In addition, all staff investigators who did not have an incoming police background attended a course M. Morris (Chair): Good. Any further questions from for three months at the Justice Institute before the IIO the committee? came into force. It covered a whole range of issues related to investigatory competence. S. Fraser: Have you received concerns or complaints In terms of their background, perhaps we can ask about the IIO — if there are civilian concerns about how the chief civilian director, when he appears, to kind of the investigations are done or if there are people con- give you a bit of a rundown. Basically, they come from cerned with them not being eff ective? Or are there any a variety of investigatory backgrounds — places like concerns of bias or anything like that? Is that something ICBC, coroner's offi ce, Ministry of Children and Family that would come across your desks at Justice? Development, as well as some entirely non-investigatory backgrounds like journalistic backgrounds, etc. J. Chalke: It could, potentially, I suppose. It's not something in terms of something I'm aware of. Th ere S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): If I could just have been public concerns expressed about at least one follow up. Th is may end up having to go to the civilian investigation that the IIO carried out that are in the pub- director himself. It mentioned in the act that they cannot lic domain. have been a police offi cer within B.C. for fi ve years. I no- tice that's within B.C. Do we have any offi cers currently, J. Deitch: I think that would be…. or former offi cers, I guess, from outside of B.C. that, say, were offi cers a year ago? J. Chalke: Th ere is the opportunity under the Police It just seems it's a funny stipulation to me that we've Act…. Th e chief civilian director may appoint a civilian said fi ve years for B.C. But maybe you could be just across monitor. Th ey can actually appoint a monitor to watch the border in Alberta, and you could have been an offi cer over their investigation, if I can describe it that way. a year ago. I'm just curious. Th at's an opportunity that does exist under the act. [1115] J. Chalke: Th at is the case, and 54 percent of the in- I don't believe that that has occurred to this point yet, vestigators have policing backgrounds. Th at background Independent 18 Investigations Office Review Monday, May 26, 2014

could well be, and in the vast majority of cases is, from pensation to address the fact that they have to work at outside British Columbia and can be recent, or it could midnight and two in the morning when things occur and be longer ago. frequently are asked to work overtime that would other- wise be uncompensated. M. Morris (Chair): Nothing further from the com- I don't have the actual classifi cation, but we can pro- mittee members? vide the public service classifi cation for you, and we'll Spencer, you have one more — or a couple more? Go undertake to do that. ahead. Fill your boots. S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): I'm just curious. S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): Does the min- It's been a year and a half, and obviously a lot of work istry itself have timelines or goals for when we transition went into the preparation of the IIO — reviewing other to full civilian oversight? Or is it sometime in the distant provinces and how they do this as well. I'm curious on future? What kind of guidance is the ministry providing two points. I understand Justice Braidwood make the in this understanding that the IIO is independent? recommendations around serious harm. I know some other jurisdictions include sexual assault as something J. Chalke: Well, I think it's early days yet. We've only that they investigate. had, as we indicated, one full fi scal year and less than two I know there's some debate, potentially, around: does years in total now that the IIO has been in existence. Th e serious harm involve mental disturbance or psycho- number one goal is to conduct a professional, competent logical harm which could occur out of an incident? You investigation into some of the most serious off ences that might be able to help me understand how we really ar- exist in the Criminal Code. I think everybody involved rived where we're at now. Does the serious harm include recognizes that that's the number one goal. mental distress of some kind? Having said that, there is a serious commitment to those investigations being conducted by a civilian or- J. Chalke: In terms of the latter part of your ques- ganization. It's noteworthy that the leader is a civilian. tion fi rst, serious harm is a defi ned term in the Police It's noteworthy that they've hired their fi rst team director Act, which I think I read out before. It really describes a that's a civilian. It's noteworthy that almost half of their physical manifestation of an injury, a serious disfi gure- investigators are civilian. ment, "substantial loss or impairment of mobility of the [1120] body as a whole or the function of any limb or organ." It But achieving that goal or aspiration which is set out has a very physical description in terms of serious harm. in the act about becoming completely civilian is going to In terms of the determination as to why the Police Act take some time. I think everybody recognizes that, and is written the way it is, I think there was recognition that we're all learning as this process moves along. the central function, at least initially, for the independ- It's heartening to see the percentage increase. As long ent investigation offi ce would be those use-of-force in- as that's happening, that's something which indicates cidents that are most at scrutiny in terms of conduct of things are moving in the right direction. Th ere isn't a set police or other conduct by the police that results in death period of time, simply because I think all of that is sec- or serious harm. ondary to the number one goal of ensuring that investi- It really is, I think, a view that these are the most cen- gations are done to the highest standard. tral and key questions. Th at's not to say that there aren't other potentials for the future, but at this point in time, M. Morris (Chair): Th ank you, gentlemen, ladies. that was felt to be the place at which the IIO should com- Scott, you had one more. mence its mandate. [1125] S. Fraser: Yeah, just one. I'm curious. We've had some turnover with the investigators, as you mentioned to J. Tegart: I had a very similar question to Spencer as Kathy earlier. Over half of the investigators come from to where the civilian investigators would come from and a police background. What's the compensation? Do we what walk of life they would come from. I'm most curi- know? Is it comparable to being a police investigator, be- ous, also, to ask the question around public confi dence. ing on the IIO? Is it a fi ve-year contract? How does that Are we measuring public confi dence in the offi ce, and is worked out for the investigators themselves? that part of the annual reporting?

J. Chalke: Th ey're hired as public servants, and they're J. Chalke: One of the things that is specifi ed in the let- excluded from union membership. Th ey're not eligible ter of expectations between the Deputy Attorney General for overtime, which does make them somewhat diff er- and the chief civilian director is to challenge the chief ent than police offi cers serving in a police service. For civilian director to develop public performance measure that reason, there is some increase in their basic com- indicators. Th at's something that is underway at the IIO. Independent Monday, May 26, 2014 Investigations Office Review 19

I can tell you that public confi dence is a key deliverable undertake to provide you with the numbers that arise for the Ministry of Justice. Th e IIO is part of the Ministry from those other jurisdictions. It does occur, and in juris- of Justice. Th erefore, that whole question of public confi - dictions with big populations — Ontario, for example — dence is something that's pretty central. obviously, it's likely to occur more oft en.

S. Fraser: I just thought of another question. I'm sorry S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): Just a follow-up. to keep going here. Certainly, the officers that I know and have worked Th e IIO here in B.C. includes investigations of off -duty with…. I feel pretty confi dent in our police. police offi cers. If I recall, in your description earlier of the I'm just curious. Given that the Crown counsel makes other similar agencies around the country, not all of them the fi nal determinations…. include investigations with off -duty police offi cers. What [1130] was the rationale for that inclusion, considering there are Th ere's been a lot of talk in the news recently about the other existing investigative organizations that do not in- higher charge standard in British Columbia for murder clude off -duty offi cers? and questions about whether or not B.C.'s standard is too high — that you must be able to proceed with a convic- J. Chalke: With respect to these serious off ences in tion or have a high likelihood of conviction. cases that involve death or serious harm, the concern is From the Crown's perspective, if we had a diff erent ensuring that there's public confi dence that the investi- standard…. And I understand. I am not a lawyer, so this gation is carried out in a manner that is not biased and, may be an impossible question or may cost a gazillion therefore, not connected with the police. dollars in lawyers' consulting fees. Were any potential cases forwarded to Crown for potential charges that were S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): Given that rejected because of the higher standard of likelihood of you've done a review of what other provinces and juris- success of a case, to your knowledge? dictions have in terms of civilian investigations, I'm curious. Obviously, every province is diff erent. We could J. Chalke: Th ere are two diff erent standards at play look at it as a great victory that only three of the issues here. have proceeded to charges, or we could see it as a prob- lem. It really depends on your view of the policing sys- S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): Th ank you. tem, I suppose. Is this consistent with other jurisdictions — the low J. Chalke: Th ey are two completely diff erent standards. level of proceeding with charges? Is there no way to Yes, there are cases that are referred by the chief civilian make an apples-and-oranges comparison like this? I'm director to Crown in a report to Crown counsel in a man- just curious, given that some have looked at the budget ner not dissimilar to that which police do. Th e diff erence and said: "Well, that's an awfully low number of char- is that, actually, the standard for the IIO to report a matter ges." Others have looked at it and said: "Well, that's an to Crown is in fact lower than the ordinary standard that awfully low number of charges because we've got great the police apply when making a report to Crown counsel. police services in the province." Certainly, I'm hopeful Th e IIO is to report a matter to Crown counsel when that that is the case, but it's just a question that I think the chief civilian director believes a police offi cer may needs to be asked. have committed an off ence, so a quite generous or low standard, if I can put it that way, in terms of a report to J. Chalke: I guess the fi rst thing I would say is that Crown counsel. Th at has happened in the slide that Mr. a measure of success or failure of the offi ce is not the Deitch showed you. number of charges; it's the process. Th e entire purpose Last year in 2013-'14 there were 13 reports to Crown of establishing the IIO is to ensure that an impartial and counsel. In fact, since the offi ce opened, there have been seen-to-be-impartial investigation is carried out when a total of 19 reports to Crown counsel, and as we've indi- these very serious incidents do occur. cated, there have been three matters in which the crim- It's no measure of success or failure that a particular inal justice branch has authorized the laying of a charge. number of charges are laid or are not laid. In fact, the jurisdiction of the IIO ends at the time that a report to K. Corrigan: I wanted to ask about a concern that has Crown counsel is made. It's up to Crown counsel to de- been expressed by the B.C. Police Association. Th ey've termine whether or not a charge is laid, at the end of expressed a few about the operations of the offi ce. One the day. of them is the suggestion that there is duplication be- It is rare in Canada for criminal charges to be laid tween the Offi ce of the Police Complaint Commissioner against police offi cers in respect of conduct. It remains — that when something falls under the defi nition of when rare even in jurisdictions that have civilian investigation it should be investigated by the independent investiga- organizations, to the best of my knowledge. But we can tions offi ce, it also can trigger an external report by the Independent 20 Investigations Office Review Monday, May 26, 2014

Offi ce of the Police Complaint Commissioner, if it's a re- related to critical incident investigations from the IIO to portable injury. Th e suggestion is that we have duplica- those organizations so that that reduces any overlap in in- tion that is unnecessary. vestigation. I'm wondering if there has been any thought within Now, having said that, those organizations are still going the ministry to whether or not there's an agreement that to undertake some form of investigation following from there is duplication or an unnecessary duplication. Th en that. Th at's obviously within their mandate. Th ey have dif- also, whether or not there's anything contemplated in or- ferent questions because of their diff erent mandate, but the der to deal with that. actual results of the IIO investigation are shared with both so that there is, to the extent possible, a reduction in any J. Chalke: I would say that the ministry did undertake redundancy between the two investigations. an analysis to consider whether the independent investigations offi ce and the Offi ce of the Police Complaint K. Corrigan: Another question. Th e RCMP are cov- Commissioner should be amalgamated. Frankly, we ered by the offi ce. I'm wondering operationally — and concluded that the two organizations have very diff erent maybe this is something that would be best addressed to jurisdiction. Th ey have very diff erent mandates, func- Mr. Rosenthal — from the ministry perspective, has that tions and human resource needs, which are not easily worked out well? Are there any issues with the offi ce ap- amenable to amalgamation or that would yield any ma- plying to the RCMP as well? terial benefi ts. Amalgamating those two organizations would require quite substantial policy and legal consider- J. Chalke: Yeah. My understanding is that the offi ce ations given the very diff erent functions and setup of the has received excellent cooperation from the RCMP. two organizations. Th e organizations have a reporting relationship which K. Corrigan: Okay, great. Th anks. is diff erent to diff erent branches of government. Th e IIO is established within the Ministry of Justice, and the chief M. Morris (Chair): Any further questions from com- civilian director is accountable to the Attorney General, mittee members? namely, to the executive branch of government, while the Police Complaint Commissioner is an offi cer of this K. Corrigan: Are we going to have a further opportun- Legislature and is accountable to the Legislative Assembly ity to have ministry before us, or is that up to the com- — that is, to the legislative branch of government. mittee in the future? Th e two organizations also have diff erent mandates and functions. Th e IIO is responsible for conducting a M. Morris (Chair): Th at will be up to the committee. criminal investigation of incidents of death and serious Mr. Chalke has already stated that if we do have any fur- harm involving both RCMP and municipal police ser- ther questions that they'd be more available to meet with vices, whereas the Police Complaint Commissioner is us down the road. responsible for monitoring and reviewing administrative investigations of misconduct involving municipal police K. Corrigan: Okay, great. Good. Th ank you. only. Misconduct investigations are undertaken by police agencies, and the OPCC provides an oversight role, pri- M. Morris (Chair): Well, Mr. Chalke, Mr. Deitch, Ms. marily, as opposed to an investigatory role. Nadziejko and Ms. Mason, thank you very much for your [1135] time here this morning in helping us out on this as we While it's true that they're both organizations that re- move forward. We will be giving you a shout in the fu- late to civilian oversight of policing, it has been our con- ture should any further questions come to the committee clusion, at least at this time, that the two organizations here that we need your answers for. really represent diff erent aspects of civilian oversight and are best served by diff erent organizations. J. Chalke: Th ank you.

K. Corrigan: Can I have another question? M. Morris (Chair): Committee members, we've got some further business to discuss here. We'll give these M. Morris (Chair): Go ahead. folks an opportunity to leave.

J. Deitch: Might just want to add, as to your specifi c Committee Meeting Schedule question about overlap or redundancy between…. Th ere actually is agreement between both the independent in- M. Morris (Chair): Just in answer to your question, vestigations offi ce and the Offi ce of the Police Complaint Kathy, on possible timelines on the business plan that Commissioner and the Commission for Public Complaints we had submitted earlier, we do have an opportunity on Against the RCMP that there's a sharing of all information there to meet with them. But we do have a couple of dates Independent Monday, May 26, 2014 Investigations Office Review 21

that are still up in the air for stakeholder meetings this D. Plecas: Th at works for me. fall, in September, October. Do we have August here? I'm hoping that we can probably go the fi rst couple weeks of J. Tegart: Th at works for me. August. No, I'm kidding here. We have a possible meeting September 10 and 11, pub- M. Morris (Chair): Okay, and I'm sure we can get Scott lic hearings with stakeholders and experts in Vancouver, if Hamilton on board as well. everybody could have a look at your calendars. We perhaps Susan, anything that we've missed here or anything don't need to make any conclusions at this time, but if you that we should be discussing? can get back to Spencer on your side, and you guys can get back to us and share the dates that you might be available. S. Sourial (Committee Clerk): No, I think once we've [1140] met with the Chair and Deputy Chair, we'll go over the It's pretty tough to nail it down, but this is far enough stakeholder list and distribute it to all the committee in the future, I think, that we don't have anything really members. Th e thought was to have the stakeholders appear set from a legislative perspective. If we can go with these on the 10th and the 11th, once we get that list approved. dates, that would be great. Any comments on that? M. Morris (Chair): I've had a few messages and e-mails from the public with respect to holding a hearing in S. Fraser: Th e dates again, Mike? Sorry. Prince George. I've referred them to Susan. I've passed them down over to Susan. I haven't responded to them M. Morris (Chair): We have September 10 and 11 for myself. public hearings in Vancouver. Th ey're with stakeholders. It's my feeling that some of these various groups may We also have meetings tentatively set for October 8 and be more interested in rehearing the results of a fi le that October 22. October 8 is a meeting with the ministry has already been concluded, so we have to take some and the chief civilian director to consider the results of care in determining how and where we're going to do our public meetings. Th e consultations that we have on these to make sure that they are accessible to the con- the 22nd would be the review of the results of the pub- cerned members of the public and whatnot. We'll give lic meetings and to discuss draft recommendations and that some thought, and Spencer and I can give that some whatnot within the committee here. consideration.

D. Plecas: Th at date in October is when we're sitting? D. Plecas: Are we going to have some time to delib- erate amongst ourselves? I say that, being reminded of M. Morris (Chair): October 22, yes, possibly. Kathy's question and Spencer's question. Like, we get an answer, but I'm not sure we would want to go with that. D. Plecas: Are the dates…? The 10th and 11th of September — are they nailed down? S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): I was just going to say that the schedule does allow us to have both Justice M. Morris (Chair): Strictly, they're just out there as and the IIO back. Th is was kind of the idea: that we tentative dates right now. would have an intro. We'll hear from people. We'll get a chance to have a fuller response from both the ministry D. Plecas: I wonder if we could nail those down fairly and the IIO, based on what we've been hearing — an- quickly. Th us far that's been a…. I already have one date other chance to grill them again — but in the end, it's all which overlaps with my other committee, the children's of our committee. committee. I think if folks are able to look at the possible timelines and just give us a sense, we're happy to accommo- M. Morris (Chair): Okay. date. We're trying to give a chance for…. Th ey can have their side of the story heard. We can hear other sides of S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): Maybe, Mr. Chair, the story. It'll give us enough time to come back if we're if both yourself and myself can commit to getting an answer not getting what we need to be able to have a full report. back from our members — let's say by the end of this It's a bit of a quicker timeline in terms of the response week — to these dates, then we can be planned well in back and forth, given the summer, but I feel confi dent advance. that we'll get that opportunity, as long as we keep our eyes focused on it and give those that we need to demand an- M. Morris (Chair): Yep. We'll do that for sure. swers from, or request answers from, adequate time to appear before us. S. Fraser: All the dates look…. Th ey're clear for me, so if they work…. D. Plecas: Are we in camera right now? Independent 22 Investigations Office Review Monday, May 26, 2014

M. Morris (Chair): Yes, we are. two types of survey. One was a survey that we would ask the IIO to distribute so that the committee wouldn't see S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): We'd have to names. It would be an anonymous survey. Th at doesn't move in camera. really have…. We haven't determined a timeline for that. Th e consultation process opens would be the commit- S. Sourial (Committee Clerk): We're not; we're in public. tee issuing a call for written submissions, which would last until the end of August. M. Morris (Chair): We're not in camera, yes. Our website is up and running now, is it — or will be? K. Corrigan: In terms of the stakeholders that are involved, I'm just trying to get an idea on that. I know that S. Sourial (Committee Clerk): Th ere is an existing when we were doing the conducted energy weapons re- website. We're in the process of revamping the website, view a couple of years ago there was sort of a ready-made and the revamped website for all the committees is not list of stakeholders, because there were people who had yet up. given expert testimony at the Braidwood Inquiry. [1145] I'm wondering whether the two of you or the three of you have thought about who potential stakeholders M. Morris (Chair): Okay, but we will have opportun- would be. Th e reason I raise it is I'm not sure who those ities for the public to comment on that and gather some stakeholders would be. more information for that. So without…. Th e other thing we were really surprised with that committee…. It also included — it was a two-part com- S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): Just one more. mittee — an audit of the police complaints process. We We've got right now in our timeline: consultation pro- were really surprised at how little interest there actual- cess opens in June; key stakeholders invited to partici- ly was. I don't think there was anything the matter with pate. I guess the Chair and I will be meeting shortly to the process, particularly, but I think we have to be quite go over that list, based on feedback from all of you. Is proactive in terms of getting information out there and that correct? making sure that those that might want to comment get an opportunity or are aware of it. M. Morris (Chair): Yes. M. Morris (Chair): You're right. We want to be as S. Chandra Herbert (Deputy Chair): As well, I know comprehensive as possible with this. If anybody on the we've discussed a survey of residents or giving people a committee has any suggestions for stakeholders that we chance to have their voices heard in that way. Is the idea, should be reaching out to, by all means let us know and as well, to have that ready for June for a launch, then? we'll make sure that they're included on the report. I think for now we can conclude this meeting, and we'll M. Morris (Chair): Yes. carry on with our discussions later on.

S. Sourial (Committee Clerk): Spencer, there are Th e committee adjourned at 11:48 a.m. Hansard Reporting Services

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