Girlsh Karnad Interview by AHMED RIZVI and NANDAN NILEKANI

After Basu Chatterjee's 'Swami', Girish Karnad is much in demand as a 'character actor' in commercial Hindi cinema. But he first made his mark as a playwright ('Tughlaq', 'Hayavadana') and as one of the pioneers of the new cinema movement in Karnataka. Karnad maintains his varied involvement in theatre and cinema— as a writer, an actor and a film-maker. He has just written his fifth play and is planning to begin work on his next feature film

Debonair: We may as well fit anywhere as a director if I did begin with a question that is anything other than what I'm w orrying a lot o f people sick. doing, which is one project every To put in a sentence: "Why few years. The two year gap after is Girish Karnad selling out?" 'Ondanandu Kaladalli' is absolutely intentional. I'm planning my next Girish Karnad; (laughs) Yeah, film now. all of a sudden everyone seems to be plagued with this question of Deb.: But doesn't this tend to what the hell I'm doing in com­ mix you up? Doesn't it have a mercial films. It's gratifying to have corruptive influence on you? so many people who have your interest at heart, who come and G .K .: It certainly does have a tell me that I was quite bad in corruptive influence on many 'Ratnadeep' or good in 'Aasha', people. In most cases you can't but how come a nice guy like me segregate two interests; they fuse is here, anyway. and then you can't get back to Look, what am I supposed to whatever you had been doing. do if I want to make a living as an In my case. . . (pause) well, I actor? Either. I depend on certain can only say anything on my work people to give me roles in all their by the sole yardstick open to films, people like Shyam Senegal me, which is the degree to which and Basu Chatterjee, which is it has satisfied me. The films I quite unrealistic— I mean, I make, or the plays I write. I've wouldn't do that in my films, take just completed a play called the same people— or I quit acting 'Hittina Hunja' (which means a and take an office job or run an ad cock of flour) which I think is the film agency the way Shyam is most exciting play I've ever done. doing, or just sit around. The point One is of course never fully that nobody realises when they tell satisfied in that one always hopes me to stick to direction is that f to do better than whatever one cannot make six films at one time has done in the past. 'Anju the way they do in commercial Mallige', which I wrote two years cinema, and that barring Ray there ago, was criticised badly by the is nobody in India who can be press, but I still like the play. I purely a director and yet stick to think there is something in it that one film at a time. I wouldn't is open to anyone who wants to

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read it. 'Ondanondu Jaladalli' too, actors. Do you sense this dif­ Hitchcock or John Ford. You just which was the film I had made ference? look at that work and you say on martial arts in Kerala, when I "Oh my God! What a sweeping, look back on it I see that I could G.K.: What I think you are asking wonderful canvas!" These people have put in more work than I did, me is, why does 'Stardust' think have produced something worth­ but it is still something I am quite I'm a talented actor (smiles). I while within the popular tradition. fond of. don't know, I guess it is perhaps And that is what I have always the age-old connection that exists strived towards doing, it has been Deb.: How do you manage to between a successful actor and my aim. prevent being corrupted? an artistically acclaimed actor— this is so everywhere. Then again, Deb.: Is that the reason why G.K.: In my case the question a sympathetic role always fetches you have never tried to do a hasn't really arisen because I have artistic plaudits, a complex role is contemporary film or written never taken the commercial less easily understood and there­ a play documenting the times cinema seriously; it's been more fore less easily appreciated. For you have lived in and experi­ like a windfall. I can understand instance, most people thought I enced? You work on either someone who has always been an was better in 'Manthan' than in themes based on legendary actor, always wanted to act. He 'Nishant'. The complexities of that myths ('Hayavadan', 'Hittena might stick on, even if he has to do school master in 'Nishant' are Hunja') or historicals lousy roles with bad directors. I've more difficult to understand. These ('Tughlaq'); I think the only never worked towards acting the were the same people who didn't time you ventured on a con­ way I've worked towards being a like Anant Nag in 'Ankur'— you temporary theme is the film playwright or a good film-maker. can see how good he was in that 'Kaadu', and even there you One has to be totally aware of the film. created a w orld that w as quite technique of the medium, one impervious to outside influ­ has to have seen or read the Deb.: Do you have any parti­ ences. Barring that last cular audience in mind for moment when the police whom you perform? At what come, the feud is entirely point do you relate with the within the village. "It doesn't upset me people? that people tell me I G.K.: (Pause) Well, obviously have written a bad play; G.K.: I have never written any­ you're right in that I've never but when they say they thing, or made anything...... dealt with contemporary themes. haven't understood a (pause) Well, let's put it the other You had better ask the literary way round— whatever I have critics why that is so, but speaking word of it, that would done, I have done for a large for myself, that somehow fits into really Upset me" audience, I have wanted it under­ the form that I work within. I'm stood by a large audience. It told that a playwright like doesn't upset me that people tell Tendulkar for instance, has written classics, worked very hard to me I have written a bad play, but plays that he had not consciously acquire the discipline. Acting is when they say that they haven't planned, plays that just "flow". something that I was forced to do understood a word of it, that would Well, nothing flows like that for when I started— that was when really upset me. This is not to take me. My theme is a consciously Pattabhirama Reddy told me that a theoretical standpoint. I'm stat­ executed one, where everything, there was nobody he could afford ing, and accepting, what has the whole development, has been for 'Samskara' so why don't I act always been for me a fact. worked out over several drafts the Brahmin— and today it is When I wrote 'Tughlaq', for and a lot of work. something like a windfall. I'm instance, it was deliberately in the In all the plays I have done, it is going along with it as far as it will Company Natak style, with murder the idea of the basic theme that take me. And, of course, for the and thunder and suspense and has come to me first— the mythical first time in my life I'm saving everything. It is in no sense an tale in 'Hayavadan' and my recent money. intellectual play, but I have said 'Hittina Hunja' which is based on that I wanted to say nevertheless. an old Jain legend,on the conflict Deb.: There's this particular I do want to do that kind of thing, between brother and sister who contradiction about your act­ because ultimately what makes are incestuously drawn towards ing. Many people believe that someone like Dostoevsky great is each other as a conflict that is you really are quite bad as an that he worked within a popular merely an extension of the one of actor. But there is that milieu. In films I might admire the British National Front— this peculiar stratum of film someone like Resnais, I might see is the fundamental structure. Once society— that swinging, so­ 'Charulata' four times and admire I get the structure I then think phisticated type, which is Ray's calibre in his ability to see about it, the possibilities open to easily intimidated by "intel­ dramatic possibilities in this story. interpret the theme. I sometimes lectuals" — these people have But what really impresses me, take years: both 'Anju Mallige' conferred on you the role of sends me reeling, is the work of and 'Hittina Hunja' had been one of our truly talented someone like Akira Kurosawa, or brewing for years. And then

12 ' ^ 4 ' - 2 "The parallel film movement in Karnataka is crawling with but if you think of Ibsen or thing is inevitable. But if you have badly-made small Chekov as playwrights that you got the impression from what I've would like to emulate, or even a said that I'm about to replace budget films; not just play like 'Mrichakatik', then first Dostoevksky then I've not made that, sheer racketeering rate is really something fantastic. myself clear. is replacing any So one naturally feels that one has pretensions to art" failed to come up to that standard. Deb.; You have, but the point It becomes even worse in is that these yardsticks sug­ cinema when you compare your­ gest themselves to you gradually it takes shape, coloured self with the very finest, because naturally, which is unusual, by my own feelings, my anger, the greatest film-makers the world isn't it? my involvement with the environ­ has seen are your contemporaries. ment around me, and then the You can meet them if you like. G.K.: Yes, but the validity doesn't interpretation of the play comes They are not Shakespeare, whom decrease for that. to me and I write it. I begin with you can put on a pedestal. Berg­ the assumption that one does man, Kurosawa. . . Coppola of my Deb.: Your recent films give not have to depict a contemporary own generation, or Kubrick. Here the impression that you have situation to speak about it or to the sense of having failed happens come a long way from the days reflect it. every time. I've often had to take of 'Samskara' and 'Kaadu'. myself in hand and tell myself Do you feel that way? Deb.: But then doesn't this that "OK, I'll do better yet, I must create some sort of ponder­ not give in to failure. Not G.K.: The movement that those ousness in your approach? now. . ." films sponsored has deteriorated to such an extent that I would G.K.: It does irritate me, that Deb.: It occurs to me that naturally have come out of it, as I although I get upset, or react almost none of the criteria have. Even after I did 'Kaadu' and quite violently to things around you employ for your work or then followed it up with Karanth me, I can't give it an instantaneous your thinking are immediate to make 'Vamsha Vriksha' the form. What I feel becomes merely ones, which could emerge essence of the parallel film move­ a reaction— I feel angry, upset from personal crises. Your ment in Karnataka did not gain a and I talk about it. But that is not consciousness spreads the hold. It was only after Karanth theatre, not for me. This is hardly world over, into the literature made 'Chomana Dudi' that the to say that the two are not inter­ of the past; you can compare parallel cinema really emerged. connected in some ways. They your work with that of But now what is happening is it's are, and where they are, the Dostoevsky and say that crawling with badly-made small plays show it. At least I hope they "Well, yes, I haven't done so budget films; not just that, sheer do. well this time" meaning that racketeering is replacing any the next time you hope to be pretensions to art. I'll give you Deb.: You once said, many even better than Dostoevsky. this example, which you must years ago, in an interview, that Do you think that you are a quote. Each film-maker in Karna­ you were "terrified of failure." better writer than John taka is given one and a half lakhs Do you think, looking back O sborne? for a small budget, seriously made over the years, that you have film. Now three film-makers got fulfilled some of that pro­ G .K .: When I compare myself together, made three films with mise— created a substantial with these people— it's quite true, three scripts, but the scripts were body of work? I do compare myself, and it's a such that they could be shot at lot more stimulating than worrying the same time, with the same cast, G.K.: No, I don't think so; I about some of the essentially using the same costumes, and mean one always hopes that one petty points that many critics are even in some places the same has not produced what one is in the habit of raising— but when shot was used in all the films. capable of producing, that your this happens it is not so much a So, for practically the cost of one true masterpiece is still to come. value comparison as one of a film, they made three. Naturally, Which is actually why one keeps comparison of possibilities, the they pocketed the surplus, and writing, or making films. utilisation of the canvas open to then didn't care as to whether Certainly my initial reaction to me, the effectiveness with which the films were released or not. what I make or write, immediately I've made use of it. I can see how They had made their money. after I do it, is one of disgust. good these people are, these first Consequently, everyone is "Oh God, another thing that's rate writers and film-makers, I can howling in Karnataka that the second rate".. . . Because the relate to them. And when that subsidy should be discontinued criteria of first rate, if you really happens, I can, and in fact sub­ because it is only spawning bad go by the best in the world, is consciously do, compare what I films and the whole movement is really very high indeed. If you are have done with what I can per­ deteriorating. We find to our horror willing to compare yourself only sonally recognise without the help that almost all thd small budget with Peter Schaffer or John of a literary critic telling me, as the films fail to make the money Osborne, then it's no problem. ultimate in that form. That sort of spent on them. The idea of a small

13 “ Commercial Hindi cinema is bizarre, I tell you, it's bizarre. I was see, so I can be much more open 'Swami' had by then become a under the impression to this criticism. But 'Ondanondu super hit, and I had got many that it was the star Kaladalli' certainly was something offers by them. The two years I system that created of an attempt at seriousness. have spent after 'Kaladalli' are this chaos. But I find What do you have against that merely to recover from the exhaus­ it isn't that, it's the film? tion of that entire effort. So if your question was trying to equate financing system" Deb.: Right from the begin­ the connection of my apparent ning it was touted as a "com ­ rejection of the 'Kaadu' and budget film is that it is possible mercial" film ! Secondly, that 'Vamsha Vriksha' legacy in favour to chart out a minimum market character played by Nag, the of a more commercial attitude to for your film, anticipating a mode­ very intention was that of a my work with my joining comm­ rate run in the larger towns, and filmic hero, certainly a first­ ercial cinema, then you're quite to budget the film within that tim e character in your films, wrong. It was the other way round. minimum sum. It is not an entirely though 'Tughlaq' shows this fail-safe method, but in 80 per character. I'm not criticising Deb.: What do you think of cent of the cases it works, as I can the film, I'm merely making a the way the commercial Hindi tell you with experience. But now statement that the intention cinema functions? it isn't working. The excuse given and the very form it took is in G.K.: Bizarre, I tell you, it's is that the big distributors are itself a corruption. bizarre. I was under the impression ganging up against the small film that it was the star system that producers, which is true. They G .K .: Yes, the film is a commer­ created this chaos, the problem of are ganging up, but if you go to cial one, yeah. But I nevertheless getting dates, etc. But I find that search for the true cause of the wanted to, and did, make a lot of it isn't that, it's the financing failures, you will find that in most subtle points about the film and /System. Nobody trusts anyone, so cases it is the racketeering and the characters. I consciously the producer who wants money absolutely poor quality of the avoided making the comments on to continue the film has to con­ films that are made. the characters too intellectual, stantly sell it to his distributors because the film wasn't intended during the process of making it. Deb.: But hasn't this degene­ to make sociological comments, So he makes a small portion, ration show ed in your own but I said what I wanted to . . . shows it to them, gets Rs 15,000 films as well? I'm referring to Take that point of the very last from each, somehow makes it a 'Godhuli' and 'Ondanondu shot in the film, where the other lakh and then goes ahead to shoot Kaladalli.' 'Godhuli' was really man is walking out of the village, another few sequences and then quite gross, and that character and he comes to the palace, and goes back to the distributors and of Paula Lindsay was he sees his former mistress in front gets another advance.. . . absolutely trite— especially of the dead body of her husband. The consequence is that in the that point where she quarrels There is this brief moment of silent case of the small producer, it is the with the priest and then kills a confrontation between the two, distributors who decide on the cow to eat beef. The film was and he finds that he can't look at sort of film it will be. "Add another a very touristy depiction of her; he avoids her eyes and goes song" or "No advance this time" Karnataka, it just wasn't of out. So he can kill his master, he or ' vVe want more fighting" and the genre of 'Samskara', can do everything but he cannot the fellow has to damn well do it though superficial similarities face the woman of the house. He or sink. Consequently, one finds in the puritanism existed. And cannot own up to himself, he is that the film is turning out to be even 'Ondanondu Kaladalli'— faced with guilt. These are the in no way the sort of film you were a swashbuckling saga of the sort of things I have tried to bring told about. Nobody has a script, age of the martial arts in in, subtle comments about the barring someone like Basu Kerala. people, the society and its Chatterjee, and so it becomes, as hierarchial values. Moushumi Chatterjee told me G.K.: 'Godhuli'. . .1 think you're Incidentally, (this is just a by- recently, a situation where you are exaggerating. I don't agree about the-way comment) neither told of "one film when you are it being gross. Did you see the 'Godhuli' nor this film made any Hindi version or Kannada? approached, another film when it money for me at all. I don't know is shot, and a third film bearing no how precisely they ran, but both resemblance to the earlier, when Deb.: Hindi. were financially disastrous, at least you finally see it on the screen." for me. In fact, I had just com­ G.K.: Then I can imagine it pleted 'Swami' and two films for Deb.: Do you see anything striking you as such. I'm not Benegal, 'Nishant' and 'Manthan', I ike a viable alternative em erg­ trying to defend the film, mind and it was on my earnings in ing to it? you. That film came to us as a these films that made it possible package offer— the producer for me to work at a stretch. After G.K.: It's obviously a problem, wanted the story filmed, so he the failure of 'Ondanondu Kala­ because everywhere things are offered it to Karanth and myself. dalli' I decided to get into com­ getting difficult every day for It wasn't my film in that sense, you mercial cinema as an actor— film-making. On the one hand

14 you have the commercial cinema to be a massive success. As a was only after Karanth made for what it is, and on the other result a lot of people are coming to 'Chomana Dudi' that people you have a completely govern­ small budget films, because it is caught on to it, that other people ment-controlled cinema. Films possible to make small budget started picking up the concept. Division has made documentary films, without any work behind it. The concept wasn't invented by films their monopoly, which has It's depressing how badly some me, it was already in practice in resulted in many film-makers try­ of these films are made. This is Ray's films. But I was, as you ing their -hands at feature films when, instead of doing the whole would say, shrewd enough to see even before they have made any movement some good, they act as the possibilities here. documentaries. And then there is a deterrent to creation.With the Even the now-famous Kannada the Film Finance Corporation that result that you cannot have any theatre just was not there when I has some of the most stringent confidence and say that this film started writing plays. Except for conditions perhaps ever devised needs to be supported. It's not a Sri Ranga, nobody wrote plays for film-making. Many of those question of bad films, note. Any­ seriously till I started writing them, conditions are totally idiotic. I one can make a bad film. Senegal with 'Yayati' and 'Tughlaq.' Now mean, what is the FFC there for? can make a bad film, Mrinal Sen I would say that if according to If it is purely for money making can make a bad film. . . but what you it was a sense of timing and films then we don't need the you can spot here is the man who realisation that, yes this is the FFC, there are enough individual has worked at learning how to medium of today, it was shrewd­ producers who are willing to make a film, and similarly you can ness, but then it isn't necessarily finance such films. I have never spot the man who comes because a bad thing if that is so. Kannada gone to the FFC because people he managed to get FFC or some theatre is today flourishing with think that my films will recover producer to put up money, and very rich writing from the last money, and I manage to get better who has absolutely no conception ten years. terms than the FFC offers. The of shooting or anything or even If shrewdness doesn't purely FFC first wants a guarantee, then the drive to produce work of any mean opportunism, and the ruth­ calibre. It is then that you begin to lessness that has you seeing to feel depressed, because then there your survival and the failure of is no sense in saying that "This others, then certainly I make no "The problem with the is the film that needs to be sup­ apology for it. new cinema movement ported by the government or the today, in fact what is state." Small budget cinema has now become a racket for Deb.: And are you now being partly killing it, is that amateurs. shrewd enough to look to the everyone thinks he is a future? How do you envisage Satyajit Ray and that Deb.: You seem to have the it? his first film is going to shrewdness to make the best of any situation before it G .K .: I don't. I've always been be a massive success" degenerates into mediocrity far too occupied with what's been or racketeering, don't you? i happening now to look to the mean, you started with future. For the first time in my life they want negative rights and Kannada theatre, you were I think I can reasonably feel that then they want guarantee against instrum ental in the beginning money is not going to be the big distribution also! I think it is of the small budget Kannada problem in the future. Hopefully, ridiculous— look at this whole cinema, you started as part of I can do what work I want without incident of Mani Kaul getting a the new wave. All this is more worrying too much about the decree for some three lakhs for than a mere question of talent. financial returns it will yield, which 'Ashaad Ka Ek Din.' What is the Did you spot your opportu­ is a major relief, as you can state supposed to encourage nities or w as it all just a imagine. anyway? startling coincidence? I'm planning a film now I'll hopefully start in a while. Mean­ Deb.: What do you think of G.K.: That I am shrewd is one while, if 'Hittina Hunja' is staged the quality of the films that way of looking at it. But the that will be something positive. have been spawned by the point is.... I mean, I was just I'm still primarily a playwright, New Wave? You were very able to spot a lot of opportunities you know, and I think that any much a part of that whole that nobody before me had seen. judgement that has to be made movement once, so have you The fact that small budget films of me by posterity will not be opted out or just moved away could be made in Kannada, the based on my acting, or all my from it all? subsidy could be used to make other activities, or even the films small films— when 'Samskara' was I make, but on the plays I will G.K.: The • problem with that made everyone thought it was a have written. These five plays I movement today, in fact what is freak, because it was banned and have done are quite simply the partly killing the movement, is that then it got the Gold Medal. Then most exciting, the most stimulat­ everyone thinks he is a Satyajit Karanth and I went on to make ing things I have ever created. Ray and that his first film is going 'Vamsha Vriksha', 'K aadu'...it At least for me. □

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