the boisi center interviews no. 112: October 22, 2015

firmin debrabander studied at and the Catholic University of Louvain and received his PhD in philosophy from Emory University. Debrabander spoke with Boisi Center pro- gram director Suzanne Hevelone and undergraduate research assistant Max Blaisdell about his recent book, Do Guns Make Us Free? Democracy and the Armed Society (Yale University Press, 2015).

blaisdell: Why do revealed the power of the National Rifle to impose greater gun control, what efforts in the United States continue to Association (NRA). They were still able will? After Charleston, that too was not struggle in the face of countless mass to scuttle the gun control legislation enough. shootings over the last several years? after an incident like that. That caused With each of these shootings, Wayne everyone on the gun control side to debrabander: That is the big ques- LaPierre, who is the CEO of the NRA, rename themselves as the gun safety tion, of course. There are a variety of doesn’t even bother to come out and reasons for that. The easy answer is that make assertions to the public. He feels the gun lobby is well-organized and he doesn’t have to, quite frankly. But motivated, and they use their money the gun safety movement has reorient- and power effectively. They also use ed and rearranged their approach to the intimidation well. issue now. There is also a minority of voters who blaisdell: Why is it important to do support radical gun rights – gun tackle gun rights from a philosophical rights absolutism about any kind of perspective? regulation at all. They’re motivated and debrabander: I view what I’m doing passionate, and they have an outsized as a political critique, because the big voice. They’re reliable voters. The rest questions I ask are the ones you started of the electorate, which according to with. Why is the NRA so singularly and polls support some gun control, are not stunningly successful in the face of all fitted with the same passion, or at least these massacres? Also in the face of all not the same passion that matches that kinds of public health data that runs of the gun rights side. contrary to their arguments and Amer- So there have been numerous incidenc- ican public opinion, which is against movement, instead of gun control, and es where the electorate who supports them? Why are they successful? also to reevaluate their strategy. It also gun control fails to show up at the polls made them understand that the gun They’re successful because they’ve done to outbalance the vociferous minority rights movement under the auspices of an excellent job of making certain polit- that do support them. the NRA is difficult to deal with because ical arguments. “Guns make us free.” blaisdell: Even after tragedies such it does not feel that it has to negotiate. “We need widespread gun ownership as in Charleston or Sandy Hook? The NRA quite simply scored a major to counteract government tyranny.” “Widespread gun ownership supports debrabander:Yes, and the Sandy victory after Sandy Hook. That’s why and sustains our democracy as we Hook shooting really shook everyone in I think the American electorate is so know it.” “We only have rights as such the gun control movement because it cynical about gun control’s prospects. If that tragedy cannot motivate the nation because of the Second Amendment.”

1 the boisi center interview: firmin debrabander These are the arguments they like to call a Manichean view of the universe. makes a lot of sense – maybe not here make. What that means is that it neatly divides in Massachusetts, but other parts of the the universe into forces of good and country. When you pull over someone What I wanted to do in this book is evil. Wayne LaPierre talks about the for a routine traffic stop, you have to turn the eye of political theory on those good guys with a gun versus the bad think they’re armed. And you have to arguments and analyze them – subject guys with a gun. If only it were that be on edge. There was an article in The them to scrutiny – and undo them. For simple. Neatly dividing society up into Washington Post just a few months ago example, the gun rights movement good and bad and then dealing harshly – there have been 400 police shootings likes to cite John Locke as one of their with people as a result without any kind over the year so far and in 80% of them intellectual heirs. I point out in my of moral nuance – that is part of the the civilian had a gun. book that he is actually not their heir cause of mass incarceration. It’s part of but their enemy. blaisdell: Does the Second Amend- the growing cruelty of our society. ment need to be amended for the gun The project that I’ve done here is safety or gun control legislation to pass something that needed to be done at the federal level? Or can the Second because it had not been done before. I Amendment coexist with gun control? think it paves a way for the gun safety “The NRA quite movement, which is struggling at the simply scored a debrabander: The Supreme Court moment. If we can undo the political justices, in their most recent ruling arguments of the NRA, that will help major victory after on the Second Amendment, District the cause of gun control. That’s why I Sandy Hook. That’s of Columbia v. Heller, greatly expanded tried to subject them to the thinking individual gun rights and overturned of political philosophers and political why I think the a history of decisions. For 100 years philosophy as such. So I consider it a American electorate previously, groups had come before the political philosophy analysis. Supreme Court or before the federal is so cynical about system trying to argue that the Second hevelone: You make an argument in gun control’s Amendment enshrines and protects one of your articles about gun prolifer- an individual right to bear arms. They ation and police brutality, and how one prospects. If that were rebuffed over and over again, be- leads to the other. How does that tie to tragedy cannot cause the Supreme Court read that the mass incarceration in this country? Do Second Amendment enshrines a collec- you see the proliferation of guns having motivate the nation tive right to bear arms. That’s what the any direct correlation to mass incarcer- to impose greater word “militia” standing there means. ation? gun control, what What was monumental about DC v. debrabander: It is very much relat- Heller is that Supreme Court justices ed. It’s also related to the point that’s will?” overturned that traditional reading, and always lurking beneath the surface of said it protects an individual right. So the gun rights movement, which is the NRA got their way. But Scalia said its profound and deep racism. Gun What does the NRA say to these mass in his majority decision that this ruling righters deny it all the time, but it rears shootings? It says, this is a mental is not incompatible with regulations. its head. When I write these articles for health issue. Then what does it say to It’s purely the will of the NRA that , I don’t bother to deal with that? As if Wayne LaPierre is there are none. By the way, the phrase read the comments because I’ve been some expert on how to deal with mental that comes before militia in the Second told about the nastiness that comes out health people. In one terrible quote he Amendment is “well regulated.” after me. I learned early on not to read calls them lunatics, and then he says blaisdell: Would you speak to the them. My colleagues read them, and they need to be on their meds, they’re framers’ intention when they wrote the then they warn me in the hall not to being let out of the institutions, and Second Amendment? read them. What routinely comes out they need to be rounded up. That’s part in those comments is their abundant and parcel of this Manichean outlook. debrabander: That’s highly debated racism. as well. The persuasive arguments I’ve I have seen articles arguing that police read is that it was handed down to us In my book, I link the profound brutality is related to it, and in fact po- from British common law. What British fear-mongering of the NRA to what I licemen themselves have told me so. It common law presumed was an indi-

2 the boisi center interview: firmin debrabander vidual right to gun ownership in order to protect oneself on the frontier or for hunting purposes. That’s not contro- versial. So then why did they write the Second Amendment? It seems there was a political purpose in writing it. In the context of the Federalist Papers, it seems that it was written to assuage the antifederalists. Those are the groups that did not want a standing army, because they were afraid of what a standing army meant, and especially at the hands of a centralized government. They wanted to bolster the militia movement to counterbalance it. James Madison, Alexander Hamilton opposite, which should be a retort to how can you practice charity? I mention and John Jay were essentially in favor the gun rights people, who claim that it the story from the Gospel – the story of of a more centralized government. is a counterbalance. Emmaus – where Jesus is encountered They had George Washington’s bless- in a stranger. ing, because apparently Washington The gun rights people like to say that learned in the Revolutionary War that the Second Amendment is a loaded gun This becomes problematic in the gun he couldn’t count on militias, which is held to the head of government. The rights movement’s support of the stand interesting. He wanted a standing army. way it’s currently practiced, it’s far from your ground laws, which are now on The Founders came to a compromise, the truth. I argue that in a collective the book in 23 states. Those laws are writing, “A well regulated militia, being reading, the Second Amendment might counter to the Gospel. And why is that? necessary to the security of a free State, make sense, but they banished the col- If you take the case of George Zimmer- the right of the people to keep and lective reading. Now it’s the individual. man, for example, he pursued Trayvon bear arms, shall not be infringed.” The But what are all these unaffiliated gun Martin because he looked suspicious. political purpose was a balancing act, to owners supposed to do against this gov- He followed him, instigated a fight and satisfy both sides. ernment and this military, which is the shot him dead. The stand your ground most richly endowed on earth? It seems law in Florida says that you have the blaisdell: Is there any longer a bal- implausible, to say the least. right to draw your weapon and use ance between the strength and capacity it even with deadly force if you feel of the armed forces and militias or hevelone: May I ask you about how the threat of bodily harm. That’s not private gun owners? Catholic social teaching and the Gospel much. That’s been invoked repeatedly are related to this? You make the claim debrabander: If you read John throughout a lot of especially egregious that gun rights activists are actively in Locke and Rousseau, it’s clear that our cases. The Tampa newspaper has doc- opposition to Catholic social teaching. founding fathers came out of their phil- umented these in good detail. This is It seems that they’re prioritizing the osophical heritage and were worried the legislation that has been copied by individual versus the common good. about centralized government. That is states all over the country. Could you say more about that? a very real concern. But the question blaisdell: You mention one incident is how do you counterbalance that? If debrabander: The with popcorn throwing in a movie the Second Amendment was written upholds the teaching of the common theater. to counterbalance centralized govern- good. St Thomas Aquinas is clear that ment, it may have been applicable once, we cannot advance your own individual debrabander: That was a really bad but likely not anymore. What does gun well-being or flourishing or salvation one. The lawyer said his client read the ownership, as it’s currently practiced in without the integrity of the common law correctly. He didn’t know whether this country, mean as a counterbalance good being upheld. In a society where he had a weapon or not. He might have to centralized government? It doesn’t the common good is undermined by had a gun. He threw popcorn in his mean much. I argue it means quite the the efforts, for example of the NRA, face. It was dark. In that case, you’re

3 the boisi center interview: firmin debrabander not going to be encouraged to approach debrabander: I would think so. On democracies around the world that have anyone in public places. What does that the anniversary of Ferguson protests imposed stronger gun control legisla- mean for charity? There was the case in this past August a group called the Oath tion – England and Australia come to Michigan where the woman had a car Keepers showed up. They are all white, mind – have seen remarkable decreases accident, and she went to a guy’s house and they are radically in favor of gun in the numbers of shootings, which is and knocked on the door, and he shot rights. They walked among the pro- what should be expected. They’re beat- her through the screen. testors with assault weapons. There’s ing Americans over the head with this nothing you can do about them be- stuff. By the way, the NRA pressures blaisdell: That was also a racially cause, in Missouri, they have open carry Congress not to fund the CDC and charged incident. laws. But there were no black protestors NIH to do more studies or any studies. debrabander: It was. I believe he who were armed. If the protesters had The studies are there. They’re done by plead stand your ground in that case. been armed with an AR-15, I don’t think private institutions, like Hopkins. But this is a pretty deadly blow to any they would have been tolerated at all. So actually we’ve come back to the be- normal interaction in society, any reach- blaisdell: Would the gun control ginning of our interview. The problem ing out to others and helping them. I movement be more effective if they is the public. There are people who feel say in one of my articles, what if your pushed it as a public health issue? that the public health arguments, if outreach to someone is interpreted as they’re just repeated enough, will break aggression or suspicion or a threat? debrabander: They are and that’s through. Maybe. I am not optimistic They might shoot you. precisely why they’re failing. That’s that you can reason with the American why my book is needed. I admire what blaisdell: Have there been any population on this issue the public health movement is doing. statements from the NRA condemning I’m full of admiration for what they’re That might have to do with my phil- the shootings of Trayvon Martin, Tamir doing. osophical suspicions. I am a fan of Rice or the killing of Freddie Gray? Do Machiavelli and Spinoza and if people they care when police officers use dead- But it’s just remarkable that they cannot cannot be dealt with rationally in an ly force against citizens? make headway with the American electorate, then you need to go another electorate. There are data and studies debrabander: That’s a good ques- route. This is why I try to argue that aplenty that point out what is rather tion. I think they offer summary state- this armed society undermines our commonsensical. They sum up as ments, like “that’s an inappropriate use basic freedoms. follows – the more guns in any given of a gun.” society, the more gun fatalities. Yes, of [END] One of the most reliable sectors of the course, obviously. And then that all the population that are in favor of gun con- trol is the African American population. The Boisi Center In my book I argue that that makes per- for Religion and fect sense, because they’re on the front American Public Life lines. And yet, in the last year, there Boston College was a poll for the first time revealing 24 Quincy Road that a majority of African Americans Chestnut Hill, MA 02467 are turning to gun rights. This pastor from Martin Luther King’s group, the Southern Christian Leadership tel 617-552-1860 Council, said African Americans need fax 617-552-1863 to start arming themselves. He was [email protected] subsequently banned from the group. Visit bc.edu/boisi-resources His point however was that they need boisicenter to start arming themselves because of for a complete set of the these incidents with police. Boisi Center Interviews and audio, video, photographs @boisi_center blaisdell: But that could mean only and transcripts from our more police shootings? events. @boisi_center

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