Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 1890

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Elementary; P-roperty Bill. [11 NoVEMBER.] Message/Tom tlze GovemO'J'. 1329

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Tuesday, 11 November, 1890. Petition.-Townsville Gas Company Act Amendment Bill-message to the Legislative Council.-Message from the Governor-Safety of Defences BilL-Formal Motions.-Supreme Court Amendment Bill-third reading. - Provincial Legislatures. - Additional Sitting Day.-Errors in a Return.-Mount Morgan Gold-Mining Company, Limited, Railway Bill­ second reading.-Snpreme Court (Costs) Bill-com­ mittee.-:l'lessage from the Legislative Council­ Townsville Gas Company Act 'Amendment Bill.­ Supply-resumption of committee-committee.­ Adjoul'UIUent. The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock. PETITION. Mr. DRAKE presented a petition from the municipality of Brisbane, praying for leave to introduce a Bill for the purpose of making pro­ vision for lighting the city of Brisbane by electric light and for other purposes; and moved that the petition be received. Question put and passed. TOWNSVILLE GAS COMP.ANY .ACT .AMENDMENT BILL. MESSAGE TO THE'LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Mr. MORG.AN said: Mr. Speaker,-! beg to move, without notice, that the following message ba sent to the Legislative Council :- MR. PREfiiDENT, The Legislative Assembly having appointed a select committee to report upon the 1'ownsville Gas and Coke Company Act of 1884 Amendment Bill, and that committee being desirous to examine the Hon. William Aplin, a member of the Legislative Council, in reference thereto, request that the Legislative Council will give leave to its said member to attend and be ex­ amined by the said committee on such day and days as shall be arranged between him and the said committee. Question put and passed. MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNOR. SAFETY OF DEFENCES BILL; The SPEAKER announced the receipt of a message from the Governor, intimating that His Excellency had, on behalf of Her Majesty, assented to this Bill. 1330 Provincial [ASSEMBLY.] Legislatures.

FORMAL MOTIONS. V. That the distribution of the respective powers and functions of the Legislatures of the United Provinces 'flhe following formal motions were agreed and the separate Provinces should be upon the following to:- basis, that is to say :- ByMr. BARLOW- That there should be assigned to the Legislature of the United Provinces the following matters:- That there be laid on the table of the House copies of all correspondence, memoranda, and telegrams which 1. The constitution, privileges, and proceedings of ha-ve pa.f\,"led since 1st January, 1888, between any officers either House of the Legislature of the United of the asylums for the insane at Goodna, ·roowoomba, ProvincBs, but always subject to the provisions and Sandy Gallop (Ipswich), and each other; and be­ of the Act constituting the Union, and to the tween any of such officers and the Colonial Sc.cretary, consent of the Legislaturt:>3 of the Provinces. any other Government official, and any contractor, 2. The constitution of new Provinces and the relating to the manner in whieh tenders for groceriLs, alteration of the boundaries of Provinces. potatoes, etc., forage, beer, and spirits have been carried 3. The admission of new Provinces to the Union, out by the contractors ; also, Cdpies of the i'lJnders sent and the terms of such admission. in by the Toowoomba contractors on frPo;h tenders 4. The alteration of the respective powers and being invited subsequent to the elate when Mr. D. T. functions of the Legh;latures of the United Keogh intimated his desire to be relieved of his con­ Provinces and the separate Provinces, but tract; also, oopies of Mr. Keogh's amended tender always subject to the consent of the Legisla­ for the supply of provisions to the public institutions tures of the Provinces. at Toowoomba. 5. External affairs, and the relations of the United By Mr. SAYERS- Provinces to the United Kingdom and to the That there be laid on the table of the House a other Australasian Colonies or Provinces. return showing, as to the Northern Railway- 6. The public debt and property of the United 1. The net earnings for the years 1888-9, 1889-90, in Provinces. respect of all goods and passenger traffic between 7. Obligatims in respect of contracts or engage­ Townsville and Charters Towers. ments entered into by the colony of Queens­ 2. The like between Charters Towers and IIughen­ hmd, or by the Government of the United den. Provinces. 8. The raising ot money by any mode or system of By Mr. POWERS- taxation, other than Customs duties. That there be laid on the table of the House a 9. The borrowing of money on the public credit of return showing the total amount of loan app1·oprlations the United Provinces. and expenditure in the '\'Vide Bay and Burnett Districts, 10. The fixing of and providing for the salaries and and in the Central District, to the 30th June, 1890, on allowances of Civil and other officers of the railways, public buildings, roads and bridges, and Government of the United Provinces. harbours and rivers, in accordance with the return furnished by the Auditor-General, dated the 6th day of 11. The postal service and telegraphs. August, 1889, showing the loan appropriations and ex~ 12. The census and statistics. penditure to the 30th June, 1889. 13. Defence and military and naval service. 14. Navigatfon, shipping,·and ocean lighthouses. SUPREME COURT AMENDMENT BILL. 15. Quarantine. THIRD READING. 16. Fisheries. 17. Bridges or ferries between a Province and On the motion of Mr. POvVERS, this Bill was another colony or Province, or between two read a third time, passed, and ordered to be Provinces. transmitted to the Legislative Council for their 18. Currency and co]nage. concurrence, by message in the usual form. 19. Weights and measures. 20. Bills of exchange and promissory notes. PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES. 21. Insolvency. The PREMIER (Hon. Sir S. W. Griffith) 22. Patents of invention, designs, and trade marks. said: Mr. Speaker,-I beg to give notice that, 23. Copyright, contingent upon the Order of the Day being 24. Affairs of people of any race who are not called for the resumption of the adjourned debate included under tbe laws applicable to the on the question- general community, or with respect to whom it That it would be to the advantage of the colony to is necessary to make special laws. establish in the Southern, Central, and Northern dis­ 25. Naturalisation o.f aliens, and the status of tricts separate Lc<~islative and Executive authorities foreign COl'porations. with full powers of legislation and government so far as 26. Marriage and divorce, and the solemnisation of regards matters of local concern ; but that matters of marriage. general concern, including the administration of the public debt, should remain under the control of one 27. The criminal law. Legislature and one Executive, having jurisdiction over 28. The control of railway tariffs. the whole of the present colony of Queensland until the 29. The regulation of immigration of persons not of establishment of an Australian Federation, when their the European race. functions should pass to the Legislative and Executive 30. The constitution o! a Supreme Court of Appeal authorities of the Federation- from the Supreme Courts of the Provinces. I shall move that the following be added:- 31. The enforcement within the United Provinces 2. That the following proposais be adopted as a of processmf courts of law of any Province or of basis for giving effect to the foregoing resolution, sub­ any other country. ject, nevertheless, to such modifications as may, upon 32. The appropriation of the moneys raised or fnrther consideration, appear expedient, that is to received by the Government of the United say:- Provinces. I. That the Legislature ot the United Provinces 33. Such other subjects assigned to the Legislatures should consist of two Houses, one to be chosen by the of tha Provinces as the Legislature of any Legislatures of the separate Provinces, and the other to Province may by law declare to be within the be elected by the electors of the separate Provinces in competency of the Legislature of the United proportion to the European population of each Province. . ~rovinces in respect of such Province. II. That unless otherwise provided, the Legislatures 34. Generally, all matters affecting the United of the separate Provinces should consist of two Houses, Provinces collectively. of which ono at least should be elective. And that there should be assigned to the Legisla­ III. That the Governor and Exebntive Council of tures of the separate l'rovinces the following matters:- the United Provinces should be appointed as at present. 1. The constitution, privileges, and proceedings of IV. That for each Province there should be a Lieu­ the Provincial Legislatures, but always subject tenant-Governor, to be appointed by the Governor oft he to the provisions of the Act constituting the United Provinces, and an Executive Council appointed Union. by the Lieutenant-Governor, and holding office during 2. Taxation by Customs or any other mode or system his pleasure in accordance with the system commonly of taxation within the Province in order to the called responsible government. raising of revenue for provincial purposes, but .Additional Sitting ])ay. [11 NovEMBER.] .A.rlrlitional Sitting ])ay, 1331

so that Customs duties shall not he imposed paper, considering that a v~ry large portion of upon goods which are the natural products o! the year has passed, and knowing too that it has any Province, nor collected upon goods passing from one Province to another Province by land, always been usual for the Government to claim but the amount payable by one Province to this extra sitting day about this period of the another Province in respect of such last­ session. But there is one special reason why I mentioned goods shall be from time to time now rise to call attention to it, and to ask what determined by commissioners appointed for arrangement the Premier proposes to make, that purpose. before I am going to consent to it. For Friday, 3. The borrowing of money on the sole credit of the the 14th-that is the first Friday that will be Province. affected by this resolution-I have got a motion 4. The establishment and tenure o! provincial offices, and the appointment and payment o! on the paper which is of considerable importance. provincial officers. It is the only motion on' the paper for that day, 5. Property and civil rights in the Province. and I mn.y say that for a considerable time I 6. The management and sale of the public lands have been pushing it on until I could get within the Province, and of all mines and a clear day for it, and now having got minerals therein. a clear day, the Government come dGwn and 7. The registration of titles to land. claim it. I am not surprised at this, 8. Education. seeing the condition of Government business, but I should like to ask the hon. gentleman if he 9. The establishment, maintenance, and manage~ ment of public and reformatory pl'isons. will promise some modification of his proposal 10. The establishment, maintenance, and manage­ so as to enable my motion, which bears materially ment of hospitals, asylums, charities, and upon the one of which he has just given notice, eleemosynary institutions. to come on. I can n.ssure him that I shall not 11. Local works and undertakings, including the waste time by making a long speech in proposing construction and management of railways. my motion ; but that it has to come on this 12. Municipal institutions. session I have made up my mind. I hope, there­ 13. Licenses for trading and other purposes in order fore, that the hon. gentleman at the head of the to the raising of a revenue for provincial, local, Government will see the necessity of allowing my or municipal purposes. motion to come on on Friday. That is my only 14. The administration of justice in the Province. reason for calling "not formal" to this motion. including the constitution, maintenance, and organisation of provincial courts, both of .civil It is not as if my motion were an ordinary and criminal jurisdiction, and including pro­ small motion which might be expected to cedure in civil matters in those courts. give way under pressure of Government busi­ 15. The imposition of punishment by fine, penalty, ness. It is one which affects my district very or imprisonment for enforcing any law of the seriously, and it will certainly be a great disap­ Province made in relation to any matter coming pointment if it is not discus;ed in the House this within any of the classes of subjects within the session. I hope, under these circumstances, the powers of the Legislatures of the Provinces. hon. gentleman will state the position he will 16. The appropriation of provincial revenue to any take up if the motion now before the House is purpos~ whatsoever. 17. Such other matters being primarily within the carried. jurisdiction of the Legislature of the United The PREMIER said : Mr. Speaker,-With Provinces as are referred by it to the Pro- the permission of the House I would say that the vincial Legislatures. · Government have not the least intention to 18. Generally, all matters affecting the inte1·nal affairs of the Province which are not a!;signed prevent the hon. member from having a full to the Legislature o! the United Provinces. opportunity of bringing forward for discussion VI. That the functions of the Executive Governments the motion of which he has given notice if, on of the United Provinces and the separate Provinces further consideration, he deems it desirable to do respectively should correspond with the functions as­ so. I just now gave notice of a motion which, if signed to their respective Legislatures. adopted, would supersede that of the hon. gentle­ VII. That all Customs duties established by the man, and the Government certainly do not Provinces, and the earnings of all railways of which the intend to ask the House to consider that motion cost of construction forms part of the public debt of the this week ; it would not be fair to do so. The United Provinces, should be received by the Govern­ Government will, as I said, give the hon. gentle­ ment of the United Provinees, and should be appro­ priated in the first instance towards defraying the in­ man an opportunity of submitting his resolution, terest upon the public debt of the United Province,, and if he desires to do so, during the session. that the surplus should be paid over to the several Pro­ vinces in such proportions and subject to such condi­ Mr. DONALDSON said: Mr. Speaker,-I tions as may be prescribed by the Act constituting the am as desirous as the Premier to see the session Union. brought to a close. At the same time that should not be done at the expense of private ADDITIONAL SITTING DAY. members who have business on the paper. On the The PREMIER, in moving- paper next Thursday there is the second reading That, during the remainder of the session, Govern­ of the Brisbane Gas Company Act Amendment ment busines~ do take precedence of all other business Bill, the consideration in committee of the on Fridays, in addition to the days upon which pre­ desirableness of introducing a Bill to amend cedence is already accorded to such business- the Licensing Act of 1885, and the Sale and said: Mr. Speaker,-It has not been unusual Use of Poisons Bill to be considered in com­ towards the end of previous sessions to ask for mittee. If the hon. gentleman carries his additional time for the despatch of Government motion and insists upon taking Friday for business. I believe it is the wish of hon. mem­ Government business, there will be no chance bers on both sides of the Honse to bring the of any of those private matters being consi­ session to a close as soon as possible, but it is quite dered by the House. For that reason I am not clear that unless this motion is carried, and we at all disposed to sacrifice the interests of private set ourselves to work diligently, it will last longer members who may wish to bring forward the than will be convenient to many hon. members, and measures of which they have given notice. It certainly longer than will be comfortable for all, would be only fair on the part of the Government considering the state of the weather. I there­ to allow that. The present session has not been fore hope that this concession will be granted to nearly so long as the last; there were five weeks the Government. during which the House was not sitting. Mr. ARCHER said : Mr. Speaker,-I am not The PREMIER: I was under "the impression at. all surprised at this motion being put on the that we were all anxious to finish, 1332 Errors in a Return. [ASSEMBLY.] Mount Morgan Railway Bill.

Mr. DON.ALDSON : I am just as anxious as I asked for a return of all pastoral rents received the hon. gentlem01n to finish the session ; but I for the district of Burke for the last ten years, and think it would be unfair to sacrifice the interests theansweris£2,000. Ihavepaidmorethanthatmy­ of private members. self. The motion by which I asked for the return is, The PREMIER: The private business on the I think, worded plainly enough. I asked for a paper will take three or four weeks to get through, return of pastoral rents and revenue from the and I do not propose to protract the session pastoral district of Burke. This return gives the three or four weeks for private business. amount at £2,000 and survey fees nil. Why, I Mr. DONALDSON: While as anxious as the paid £500 in survey fees myself. What is the hon. gentleman himself to bring the se>,sion to a good of a return like that? I would like to know close, I am not·prepared to do so to the detriment if the return will be amended, or if it is necessary of private members. that I should move for a fresh return ? Mr. O'SULLIVAN said: Mr. Speaker,-If 'l'he COLONIAL TREASURER (Hon. Sir the motion is passed as it stands, there will be T. Mcilwraith) : I will see about it. only two and a-half hours a week available for all private business. I hope the hon. gentleman MOUNT MORGAN GOLD-MINING COM­ will withdraw his motion for the present. PANY, LIMITED, RAILWAY BILL. Mr. ARCHER : With the permission of SECOND READING. the House, I should like to say that I did not The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. exactly catch the Premier's reply to my request T. 0. Unmack) said: Mr. Speaker,-Although that he would give me an opportunity to bring this Bill proposes the construction of a railway by a forward my motion during the session. As far private company, yet under the Railway Amend­ as I can see the only opportunity available for it ment A et of 1872, section 26, it is the duty of the will be next l<'riday. Government to bring in this measure if the whole The PREMIER: I said that if the hon. gentle­ of the conditions imposed in the second part of man, on further consideration, desired to go on that Act have been complied with. Those con­ with his motion on Friday, the Government ditions have been complied with as reported to would not object. this House by the Commissioners' report, which Mr. ARCHER : I am perfectly satisfied with has been laid on the table. The Commissioners that. say:- The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN said: Mr. " In accordance with the provisions of the 27th section of the Act 52 Vie. No. 8, we have the Speaker,-! have no desire to prolong the session honour to forward you. the accompanying plan, section, longer than it should be prolonged, but I think and book of reference of tbe proposed Mount Morgan we should not attempt to hurry business through. Gold-mining Company's Branch Line, commencing at We ought to do our business leisurely, and do it Kabra, 9 miles 63 chains 94 links from Rockhampton, well, and the Government are not entitled to on the Central Railway, and terminating at Mount take Friday at the expense of private members. ~iorgan, being in length 14 miles 21~ chains, and to state that thi• line is almost identical with the one This course has not been taken so often as the referred to in our report of tbe 23rd September, 1889, a hon. gentleman thinks. The Government have copy of which was laid on the table of the Legislative been in the habit of taking Monday, and leaving Assembly on the following day, Friday to private members. There are several "The divergence takes place at 13 1niles 8 chains, small Bills on the paper which would not take close to the company's property at Mount Morgan, and very long to go through, and the Government has been 1nade in order to have the terminus at their should undertake to give time for that. works at the mine instead of at the 'township. The PREMIER: All uncontentious business, "vv·e have carefully considered the proposed line, and certainly. see no reason why the company should not be permitted to construct it, in accordance with the plan and section The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: I presume submitted, The company have fully complied with all that the mover of ::mything which he saw no the requirements of the Railway Amendment Act of 1872 (36 Victoria No. 21), but it may be mentioned that chance of getting through would not press it. If instead of entering into a recognisance, as required by the Government would undertake to allow the the 22nd section of that Act, the company have de­ business on the paper at present to be got through posited with the Colonial Treasurer the sum of £500 for before the end of the session, no private member the purposes therein mentioned. would object. "We have also gone through the proposed Bill to give The PREMIER: There is one Bill here which effect to the company's proposal, and consider that its provisions are amply sufficient to meet all public would take three weeks to pass, requirements." Mr. DONALDSON: The Elamentary Pro­ The circumstances under which this Bill has perty Bill? has been introduced will no doubt be in the re­ The PREMIER: I should like to give an collection of hon. members. It will be remem­ hour to that. bered that during last session the Government of The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: We shall be the day proposed to construct this line in the quite willing to listen to the hon. gentleman for ordinary way, and they produced plans, sections, three hours on that Bill, which certainly wants a and specifications of the line. Considerable dis. good deal of explanation. cussion took place on the matter, and ultimately the Government proposal was withdrawn upon Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Will the Government the statement made by the then Colonial Trea­ take Monday, and leave Friday to private mem­ surer, Mr. Pattison, on behalf of the Mount bers? Morgan Company, that if Parliament did not The PREMIER: That is the very worst possible see its way to construct the line, the company arrangement we could have. was willing to do so. That statement was made with the bone/, fide intention of> carry­ Question put and passed. ing out the promise, and has resulted in this Bill being brought before us. The framing ERRORS IN A RETURN. of this Bill has received careful consideration, Mr. PALMER said: Mr. Speaker,-I should and every precaution has been taken to protect like, without mo,·ing the adjournment of the the interests of the public by providing for such House, to call the attention of the Colonial safeguards as have been deemed necessary. The Treasurer to some strange errors in a return I Bill has been chiefly framed upon the considera­ have just received, which is absurd as it stands. tion of various other private Bills passed by this Mount Morgan Gold-Mining [11 NOVEMBER.] Oompany Railway Bill. 1333

House on different occasions, and I think it will power, because even although in the present and bear favourable comparison, especially with a in the previous report of the Commissioners it Bill which I have no doubt the leader of the has been deemed inadvisable that the Govern­ Opposition has a lively recollection of, and ment should proceed with the construction of that is the Cooneana Railway Bill. Most of this line as a Government line, the time may the clamoes in this Bill have been taken from come when the Government may see fit to make that Bill. Possibly a few more severe and this line one of the general system under which restrictive clauses might have been introduced the country is now working the railways. It into this Bill ; but where a company have must be remembered that the last paragraph of been so liberal in coming forward to construct the Commissioners' report last year ran as an expensive line such as this, and have shown follows:- their bona fides so plainly, no undue or harsh H The Commissioners deem it their duty, however, to restrictions should be placed upon them ; and I point out that the traffic-other than that to and from think the House will be satisfied that the the mine-will be insignificant, as the line passes Government have in this Bill taken every pre· through country which cannot possibly be used for other than grazing purposes, and that unless fresh gold caution for the protection of the public interests. discoveries are made there is no probability of the line Every possible contingency that could arise being projected beyond ;11ount Morgan, as the country has been anticipated, and while a good railway for miles around is a succession of broken ridges, and for the district will be constructed, every care is unadapted for settlement of any description other has been taken to conserve all the interests that than mining. At the present rate of working it is not might possibly be affected. Before going through likely that the requirements of the community at Mount Morgan, which the manager of the mine roughly the clauses of the Bill, I wish to direct attention estimates at between 4,000 and 5,000 souls, will very to certain provisions which it has been deemed much exceed what they a.re at present; and it is more necessary to introduce in consequence of the auri· than probable that upon the stoppage of mining opera­ ferous nature of the country through which the line tions the necessity for railway communication to that will pass. It will be seen that sections 8, 9, 10, locality will cease to exist., and 11 make special provision, in the event of any Now, Ithink the House was chiefly guided last fresh discovery of gold or minerals being made in session by that paragraph in rejecting the line the district, for ample powers to conserve the right as a Government line, and I therefore consider, of mining even under the line. I think that it will in reference to such a report, that the colony is to be found that these clauses make ample provision be congratulated upon the spirit displayed b_y for such a contingency, and I hope they will the company in showing their bona :fides and th.elr meet with the approval of the House. Provision belief in the prospects of the mine by venturmg is made in sections 4, 5, and 6 for the resumption upon such a large expenditure. The company of land; in section 12, which confers all the powers have adopted the plans and surveys of the Go· under the Railway Act upon the company, vernment, with the exception of about 1l;­ there is a proviso that the company shall prescribe miles, and have acquired the right to use those all such regulations, and make and publish all surveys and plans by purchasing them ; and the such by-laws with regard to the speed at which works, I suppose, can be expected to be con­ engines or carriages may be moved or structed to the satisfaction of the authorities, propelled upon the railway as the Commis· and in accordance with those specifications. I am sioners may from time to time direct, and no sure the circumstances of this Bill are so well such regulation or by-law shall be altered or known to hon. members that they will not rescinded by the company without the consent expect me to dilate any longer upon them, and of the Commis,ioners. It was deemed advisable with these few remarks I beg to move the to place the working of the line as much as possible under the indirect control of the Com­ second reading of the Bill. missioners or the Government; and I think this Mr. AGNEW said: Mr. Speaker,-I do not proviso will meet with the approval of the rise to oppose the Bill at all; I rather congratulate House. There is a new proviso added to section the Government upon bringing it in. Certainly 20, by which the company may agree with the a very great change has taken place in this matter Commissioners to work the railway. I look in the opinions of the Premier. Some time ago upon this as a very useful provision, as a con· I remember an application of a similar nature to tingency might arise in which the company that now made by the Mount Morgan Company might desire to have the Government run their was made to the present leader of the Govern­ rolling-stockandlocomotivesovertheline ;::md this ment to construct a railway on similar terms to section gives ample power to the comp11.ny to those now before the House; but that application come to some mutual agreement with the Commis­ was refused point blank. I thought at the time sioners upon the matter; and I trust that this pro­ it was a mistake to do that. vision willalsomeet with the approval of the House. There is another new clause-section 23-which The PREMIER : What railway was that? gives the Commissioners power to interdict tha Mr. AGNEW: A Mount Morgan railway. traffic when the line is considered unsafe. This The application was made some three or four clause should commend itself to the favourable con­ years ago, when the hon. gentleman was in siderationof the House, because it must be the first power, for privileges to construct a railway to duty of the Government in passing a measure of Mount Morgan. this nature to see that the safety of the public is at all times considered. The last section has The PREMIER: I don't remember anything been deemed a very necessary and desirable one. about it. The hon. member must be mistaken. It gives power to the Government at any time to purchase the railway. Now, when we take Mr. AGNEW: I think I have still the original into consideration that this is the first private papers in my possession. I am sorry I was not line of any considerable extent-being some 14 aware this Bill was to be introduced this after­ miles long-which has been approved of, it is noon, or I would have brought the papers with considered desirable that the Government, in the me. The application was made by a number· of event of any unforeseen circumstances arising gentlemen residing in Sydney, and was made on which may alter the aspect of the country or of their behalf by an agent in this colony, and the traffic in that direction, should have the power to papers were handed to me during the last general annex this line by purchase, at a price to be fixed election. If I remember rightly I submitted the by arbitration, under the provisions of the Inter­ papers to the Colonial Treasurer-at all events, dict Act of 1867. It has been considered neces­ I remember mentioning the matter to him at the sary and desirable to give the Government this time. 1334 Mount Morgan Gold-Mining [ASSEMBLY.] Company Railway Bill.

The COLONIAL TREASURER : What the company to keep the line open. Then there papers were they? is a fair provision in the 55th clause of the Urangan Railway Act, as follows:- Mr. AGNEW: The papers with reference to "If at any time after the completion of the railway it what I am now saying. is proved to the satisfaction of the Minister that the company- The COLONIAL TREASURER: Do you (1) Fail or refuse for a period of one month to work say the application was sent in by certain mem­ the traffic on the railway pursuant to the regu­ bers of the Mount Morgan Company for power lations in that behalf; or to construct a railway? (2) Fail after traffic has been interdicted by the Minister by reason of the line being unsafe for Mr. AGNEW : No; the application was made traffic, to render it fit for traffic within a on behalf of certain gentlemen for leave to con­ reasonable time in that behalf- struct a line to Mount Morgan, and that applica­ the Governor in Council may, after one month's notice tion was declined. I do not rise to oppm;e the of his intention, sel'ved upon the company, at their Bill, as I consider it a good thing to agree to. I principal office in the colony, and published in the should like to see a number of these branch lines Gatetle, direct the Minister to forthwith enter upon and constructed, as it would be of benefit to the colony take and retain possession of such railway." to construct several such lines. I hope the Bill That is not in this Bill. will pass. The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS : That Mr. NELSON said: Mr. Speaker,-I intend Act was so strict that the company could not to support the second reading of the Bill, because carry it out. What is the use of giving an Act I consider the line will be of great benefit to the which defeats itself? You might just as well colony. At the same I must express my opinion, give them nothing. which is the same as it was last sesoion, that this Mr. POWERS: I am only pointing out that is a line which the Government would have been a certain Act passed by this House contains perfectly justified in going on with as a Govern­ restrictions which I consider reasonable. Of ment line. I believe the line will pay almost as course, if the Government have made up their soon as it is constructed, and that is the kind of mind to purchase the line, it is all right ; at the railway the colony really reqnires. vVithregard to same time, I would ask the Minister for Rail­ the provisions made in the Bill, I think the public ways to look into the Act to which I have are fully protected. Provision is also made for referred, and see whether it does not contain the purchase of the line by the Goverment when certain rights which the company should possess it suits them to do so, and I may mention that and certain restrictions which should be imposed when the proposals of the company were sub­ on the company. mitted to the late Government this proviso was The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I have made a sine qua non, and it was expressly looked at it before. stipulated that the line should become public Mr. POWERS : This is almost a public Bill property whenever it should be considered desir­ authorising the construction of a line from the able to take it over. That is a wise provision main Central Railway to a place where there is a to make. With regard to the remarks made by population of 5, 000, and I say that the line the hon. member for Nundah, I have some re­ should not be placed solely under the control of collection of seeing the correspondence that took a company without reasonable restrictions. The place some years ago. Railways Act contains this clause:- "The Commissioners shall not afford or give any Mr. AGNEW: In 1887. undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to a. Mr. NELSON: To the best of my recollection :particular person in any respect whatsoever; nor shall they subject any particular person to any undue or un­ it was before 1887-either 1885 or 1886-and it reasonable prejudice or disadvantage in any respect was only correspondence with regard to a survey whatsoever," being made. Certain private parties in the That was comidered a reasonable restriction to Mount Mor·gan Company offered a guarantee to provide in the case of the Commissioners, and I the extent of the cost of the survey, proYided think it would not be an unreasonable provision to the Government would undertake the construc­ insert in a private Bill. If the Government do tion of the line. The company had gone to an not intend to let the company run the railway as enormous expense in carrying on their opera­ they please, they ought to tell the House so. The tions, and before anything was done the matter Minister for Railways says that the Bill is care· dropped. I do not think there is anything in fully drawn, and that the interests of the public that at all. So far as I have been able to judge, are protected in every way possible. I say that the presE>nt arrangements are perfectly satis­ a private Railway Act has been already passed factory to the colony, and I intend to support by this House, which contains some clauses the second reading of the Bill. ostensibly for the protection of the public, which Mr. POWERS said : Mr. Speaker,-As far have been omitted from this Bill. I am glad to as the Bill and the construction of the line to see any company coming forward, especially in Mount Morg<~n are concerned, the colony is times like these, to spend a large sum of money lucky in getting it done by private enterprise, on a railway, because where the Government will retaining to tHe Government the power of pur­ not build a line I think it is our duty to allow chase hereafter; but I think the Bill has not companies to do so, as long as the right of the been drawn up quite so carefully as the Minister Government to buy the line is insisted upon. for Railways sard in introducing it. I notice And I think that the provision in that respect is that in the Urangan Railway Act, which was a very fair one-namely, that the Government passed by this House after careful considera­ may purchase it at the value of the line at the tion, power was given to the company to levy time of purchase. I shall vote for the second tolls, but that is not included in this Bill, and reading of the Bill. that omission, I think, is unfair to the company. Mr. ANNEARsaid: Mr. Speaker,-The hon. Then, again, in the Urangan Railway Act there gentleman who just spoke said that the Minister was the condition that the company must keep for Railways told the House certain things. I the line open for traffic, but that clause is not in­ presume that the Bill speaks for itself, and that cluded in this Bill. The construction of this the company are satisfied that its provisions line to a place where there is a population of will meet their requirements. The hon. 4,000 or 5,000 people will supersede other modes gentleman was unfortunate in mentioning of conveyance, and I think it is not fair to the the Urangan Railway Company. I have gone public that there is no provision for compelling through the plans of this proposed branch line, Mount Morgan Railway Bill. [11 NOVEMBER.] Supreme Oou1•t (Costs) Bill. 1335

and I can say that the work will be of a I believe that by having a certain number of most permanent character, equal to any rail­ private railways in the colony we shall have very way constructed in the colony. This Urangan useful data by which we may compare Govern­ Company-this bubble company; I am glad to ment enterprise with private enterprise. Private say that I opposed the measure-was never pre­ railways would be a most useful check in that re­ pared to carry out any of the conditions this spect. In America, a country where the private House imposed. And had it not been for the system is particularly in vogue, and the land­ assistance rendered to the company when they grant system to a lar;,;e extent, the carriage of came to the colony, Maryborough would have goods from one part of the continent to another had a railway to Pialba before now; but owing is vastly cheaper than the carriage of goods in to that company never having carried out the any other country in the world. That is a case work they undertook, we are left without in point, and if we have private railways here, a railway at the present time, and there well constructed and well worked, my belief is that doe;; not seem to be any prospect of get­ they will be more cheaply conducted. than Govern­ ting one for the next twelve months or ment railways, and that will be an exceedingly two years. I shall support the second valuable lesson to the people of the colony. That r~:tding of this Bill, and I think the Mount this proposed rail way should be constructed is, I Morgan Company are to be commanded for think, perfectly evident. If we do not permit coming forward to construct this line at a time this Bill to pass we may be charged, and when no new railways are being undertaken by very properly charged, with adopting a dog-in­ the Government. It is a Bill that protects the the-manger policy. We have to consider the public and acts fairly towards the company. interests of the people of Mount Morgan, and that Mr. GLASSEY said: Mr. Speaker,-I do not every year they are without a railway the more approve of this Bill-not because I think it does serious will be their position. It is the business not safeguard the public interests, but because I of the House, if the Government will not con­ am opposed to the construction of private rail­ struct the railway, to offer every facility to a wa,ys. I look upon this as the thin end of the private company to construct it, in the interests wedge to more extended works undertaken by of the people at Mount Morgan and of the companies, and if we do not take care we may colony generally. some day see the realisation of that dream-the Question-That the Bill be now read a second construction of the transcontinental railway on time-put and passed. the land-grant system. The committal of the Bill was made an Order Mr. AGNEW! A good thing too. of the Day for to-morrow. Mr. GLASSEY: In my humble way I shall SUPREME COURT (COSTS) BILL. do all I can to oppose that scheme ; and so far as this railway is concerned I say that it is a work CoMMITTEE. that should be undertaken by the Government; On' this Order of the Day being read, the but inasmuch as they have laid d'>wn certain pro­ Speaker left the chair, and the House went into visions with regard to the interests of the public, committee to further consider this Bill in more particularly the right to purchase the rail­ detail. way from the company, perhaps it is not worth Question-That the following new clause be while to cavil about the measure. inserted to follow clause 5 :- :Mr. ISAMBERT said: Mr. Speaker,-I am No pm·son authorised to jssue writs of sumn1ons in the Supreme Court shall issue any such writ ·with any as much opposed to railway building on the claim for costs indorsed thereon exceeding the sum of land-grant system as ever I was; and I am of four pounds fourteen shillings and sixpence opinion that the Government should be the absolute owners and possessors of all railways­ -put. and of all means of communication, not only by Mr. POWERS said that, with the permission land, but also by water. ·with regard to the of the Committee, he would withdraw the clause. particular railway under consideration, I believe Clause, by leave, withdrawn. the interests of the public are perfectly se­ The HoN. P. PERKINS said he had a new cured by the provisions of the Bill. The clause to propose in the Bill, which was a very proposal to allow the company to construct useful one in its way. Everything in connection the railway only means an extended con­ with legal proceedings in Queensland was so un­ tract. Up to the present the railways of satisfactory, that if they were going to tinker the colony have been built by contract, the with the law they should know on what track Government finding the money and letting the they were driving. Any person might bring an work by contract after calling for tenders. In action against another at the present time, and this Bill we have a contract, so to speak, by a haYe no visible means of paying the costs. In private company, not only to build the railway, that way, a person might be harassed and but also to find the money, and if at any time dragged into court, and if the man who brought the Government or the country think fit to in­ the action lost, the defendant would never corporate it with the Government railways they recdve a shilling of the costs. That was what can step in and force a sale. As these provisions was actually going on at the present time. are contained in the measure, I see no reason There were four or five members of the pr,ofession why it should be opposed. It is, as I have said, here who took up cases, thinking that, even if simply an extended contract, in which the public they never came into court at all, they would are secured against any encroachment on their make something out of them. As he had said rights by private enterprise. on a previous occasion, a person would almost as Mr. DALRYMPLE said: Mr. Speaker,-The soon lose his boots, his coat, and hat as go hon. member for Bundanba said he thought the into court. He had had actions brought Government ought to build this railway. That, against him for no other purpose than to of course, is a matter of opinion. The Govern­ annoy and torment him. Apart from the ment evidently think they ought not to build the costs altogether, look at the annoyance and railway, and, under these circumshnces, the mental worry caused by such cases. He would question is what are we to do when a company almost as soon go into a graveyard as be running offers to open up this communication which is to a lawyer's office every day, making the inquiries very badly wanted? The hon. member for that were necessary for those transactions. Legal Bundanba appears to object exceedingly to all proceedings that could be settled in a day elsewhere private enterprise in connection with railways. took about a week here. Who was to blame he did 1336 Supreme Court (Costs) BiU. [ASSEMBLY.] Supreme Court (Oasts) Bill.

not know ; nevertheless it was a fact, and the stayed, or in the event of the plaintiff being unable or legal gentlemen present could explain it or deny unwilling to give such security, or failing to satisfy a judge as aforesaid, that the action be remitted it, whichever suited them. It was a most unfor­ for trial before a court to be named in the order, tunate thing that a man could bring an action and thereupon the plaintiff shall lodge the original against another and worry and annoy him ; writ and the order with the registrar of such -and, at the same time, if the case went against court, who shall appoint a day for the trial of the plaintiff, he would not pay ls. costs. The the action, notice whereof shall be sent by post solicitors who took up those cases were a disgrace or otherwise by the registrar to both parties or their solicitors ; and the action and all proceedings therein to the profession. He was very happy to say shall be tried and taken in snch court as if the action there were not many of them. He believed the had originally been commenced therein ; and the costs profession in Brisbane was as respectable as it of the parties in respect of the proceedings subsequent was in Melbourne or anywhere else; but there to the order of the judge of the Supreme Court shall he were a few shady birds who were always on the allowed according to the scale of costs for the time look out. It was quite time, if any change being in use in the court to be named in the order of the judge, and the costs of the order and all proceedings was to be made in the law, that a plaintiff previously thereto shall be allowed according to the should be called upon to give security for costs costs for the time being allowed in Supreme Court before he went into court. It might be urged, actions. as the Premier said on a former occasion, that He would only mention further that he happened, a poor man would have no chance against a rich some years ago, to be involved in a case in man if he had to give security for costs ; but he Germany, in which he and his partner lost (Mr. Perkins) believed that every honest man £8,000 over some cement, and before they could would pay his just debts, or if he could not he go into court at all they had to give security for would call his creditors together and tell them costs. so; therefore that argument did not hold good in any way. He had known specula­ The PREMIER : Because you were foreigners. tive cases taken np in Toowoomba, with no The HoN. P. PERKINS said it was not other object than harassing and annoying the because they were foreigners. It was because defendants, in which the plaintiffs had no honest it was the law of the land; the hon. gentle­ claim, and yet the defendants yielded sooner than gentleman could not deny it. It w1s the law in go on, and they showed their common sense in other places, and it ought to be the law every­ doing so. If people had had his experience of where. It was not because he was a foreigner; that morning they would do almost everything it was the law in Germany, and the costs of before being dragged into court. He had had a law there were not one-quarter so great as they case brought against him by a man he had were in any of the Australian colonies. And never seen in his life. He had signed a he believed they got justice too, there. He contract with two contractors. One of them had a good many interview~ with his advocate, became insolvent; and his partner did the same. and although he had to make use of an inter­ He (Mr. Perkins} had an architect, but he \vould preter, he was surprised at the smallness of the say nothing about him. However, he was a bill of costs that came in afterwards. One con­ shady bird, and after the two contractors became dition was, as he had said, that before they could insolvent, the second fellow assigned his contract go on they had to give security for the costs. to somebody else, and he (Mr. Perkins) was They lost the action, although their counsel did dragged into court over the business. He did his level best for them ; they had a good case, not know the man ; had never written him a line but they had a bad lot to deal with. Every hon. in his life, and yet he was told that he must member must feel that to introduce such a clause defend the action, although he knew perfectly into the Bill as that he had just read would well that the fellow would not pay ls. costs. He effect a most important change in the law, as it (Mr. Perkins) had the most eminent counsel in would prevent the bringing forward of a great the colony to defend his case, but he could go number of idle and vexatious actions. into court and fight it himself, because the The PREMIER said there was a clause similar plaintiff had no case whatever. It was a shame to the one now proposed in force in England, and and a scandal that some loafing solicitor should it had been found to work very well. But the be able to geo hold of those characters and hon. member had made it apply only to actions get them to bring actions. The case was four or of tort. Why not make it apply to every kind five years old, and it would pay him better of action? to grve £500 than to go into court, but he would not do so. He was sure that half The HoN. P. PERKINS: I intended it should. that sum would be taken if offered, after The PREMIER said he would suggest to the what took place that morning, when the hon. member to leave out the words "of tort," plaintiff went into court and said he was not so as to make it applicable to all frivolous actions. ready to go on. Was that a fair way of pro­ With that alteration it would on the whole, he ceeding? Why were law proceedings conducted thought, be advisable to have it on the statute differently in Queensland to what they were in book of the colony. He moved that the words other places? He believed that system was in " of tort" be omitted. vogue in several States in America, and what Amendment agreed to. was one man's case to-day might be another's The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE said that some to-morrow or next year. It was only fair that persons, reading the clause hastily, might be when tliose shady bogus transactions were brought disposed to think that the effect would be to up, the plaintiffs should be compelled to give check justice to a poor man. If he thought any security for costs. That was the object of the attempt of that kind was made he should cer­ new clause he had to propose, which was as tainly oppose it. But he did not see that the follOWR :- clause would have that effect. It really em­ It shall be lawful for any person against whom an action of tort is brought in the Supreme Court to make powered a Supreme Court judge, when applica~ an affidavit that the plaintiff has no visible means of tion was made, to decide whether an action was paying the costs of the defendant should a verdict be a frivolous actiOJa or not, and if it was deemed a not found for the plaintiff; and thereupon a judge of frivolous action, to order the plaintiff to find tbe Supreme Court shall have power to make an order security for costs, or to send it down to the that unless the plaintiff shall, within a time to be disflrict court to be tried less expensively. No therein mentioned, give full security for the defendant's costs to the satisfaction of one of the judges of the doubt there were actions brought against men Supreme Court, or satisfy a judge of the Supreme Court of wealth by persons who were not worth powder that he has a cause of action fit to be prosecuted in the and shot, and who had a very hazy idea as to !Supreme Court, all proceedings in the action shall be the justness of their claim~:~. The effect of the Supreme Court (Costs) Bilt. [11 NoVEMBER.] Supreme Court (Costs) Biil. i337

clau~e, which personally he supported would be rich man and the poor man; otherwise he thought to discourage that kind of thing to a 'very large the clause a good one, though at first glance he extent. was not of that opinion. Mr. POWERS said the clause was a copy of Mr. DALRYMPLE said the most important !" similar clause in the County Courts Act passed part of the clause wab that by which, in the first m England in 1888. It had been found to work instance, as it were, a judge was to say whether very well,_ and he was, for his part, quite willing a case was to be tried or not. The clause by to accept It. compelling persons to give a guarantee that they were in possession of a sufficient sum of money Mr. FOXTON said that when he first saw the to pay cost~, if costs were given against them, proposed new clause he did not like it. His first would certamly prevent a poor man from bring­ imi?res~ion was that it would deprive a poor man i~g a frivolous action, but it would not prevent a of JUStiCe, but on more carefully reading it he nch man from bringing a frivolous action thought the poor man was effectually safeguarded. and he believed that rich men were eve,; He thought a better clause than that might be more in the habit of bringing an action suggested for certain actions. Of course, as pro­ t? . annoy ~ person than poor men. In posed to be altered, the clause would apply to all givmg the Jndge the duty of saying whether actions ; but the suggeetion he had to make a case .was a good case or not, the clause was a w~uld, he thoug):lt, wor)l: satisfactorily, especially yery. Impor~ant proposal; and under it he with regard to hbel actwns. In such actions the Imagmed a Judge would occupy the position of amount claimed was often a hundred or a thou­ C?unsel, be?ause it would depend upon the ad­ sand times more than the plaintiff had any vice of the Jndge whether a case should be gone expec:tation ~f recovering, and they seldom heard on ~ith or not. At present people sought the of a libel actiOn or an actiOn for slander in which advwe of counsel upon that point. In the case less than£500 or £1,000 was claimed. He thought referred to of a man bringing an action for libel ,:-n excellent alteration might be made in the law and stating ~amages at a very large sum, under If the defendant was allowed to pay into court the clause It would devolve upon the judge such a sum as might be deemed a fair thing and to a certain extent, to decide how much ~ he st:ould be at liberty to alter the amou'nt at !llan's character was worth. That was a very any time before, say, the close of the pleadings. Important consideration in connection with the The plaintiff might be allowed to come down cla';lse, as _it d~alt with one of the princi_Ples upon with his demand, and the defendant to continue whwh leg~slatwn depended, and made tnejujges' to. o!fer more .than he had previously offered duty very much more extensive, and called upon withm that time, and then if the amount them to give ad vice for which at present people awarded by the verdict was nearer to the sum depended upon counsel. He was not going to say which the plaintiff finally claimed than to that that was a bad thing, and he was glad to find the which the defendant finally offered, the plaintiff clause had been supported by some of the legal should be able to recover costs, and if the verdict members of the Committee ; but he must say was, on the other hand, nearer to the sum that, after all, the proper way, and the only effec­ which the defendant finally offered than to that tual way, to protect the poor man )VaS to have the which the plaintiff finally claimed the defendant expenses of going to law reduced, because it was s~o_uld be able to recover his c::ost~. Such a pro­ the expense of being run into law, rather than VISIOn as that would, he believed, cause nine­ the going to law, that people objected to and tenths of the actions brought for libel and slan­ grumbled about. Therefore, he thought that in der to be settled out of court. all cases where they set themselves to reform the The HoN. P. PERKINS: Don't complicate ~aw they should endeavour to reduce the charges this clause with it. m the Supreme and other courts, so long as there was any necessity upon the people to go into the Mr. FOXTON said it would require another courts to get their wrongs righted. clause, probably. He had thought a good deal abo_ut the !Hatter, and he believed that many Mr. BARLOW said he was very much with act;~ns wh~ch were brought simply as black­ the hon. member for Carnarvon in that matter ma~l;n_g actwns would be prevented by such a and he thought the clause did draw a,; proviSI?n as he suggested. Anything which invidious distinction between the rich man and would In any way tend towards the prevention of the poor man. As the hon. member for blackmailing a rich man by a poor man would Carnarvon did not propose the amendment he he should say, commend itself to the House and suggested, he (Mr. Barlow) was inclined to move the country. Notwithstanding that there was it. He thought they should strike out the suffici~nt protection _in the clause for the poor words "has no visible means of paying the man, It seemed to hnn that in the clause there costs of the defendant should a verdict be not was an invidious distinction drawn between the found for the plaintiff," with a view of inserting poor man and the rich man. the words " has good cause of action." That would make the judge a kind of judge in the Mr. DALRYMPLE: There always is. preliminary inquiry as to the cause of action .Mr. FOXTON said there always was, but he and would enable him to take a general survey did not see why any such distinction should be of the matt~r before the parties were allowed drawn iJ?- regard to their rights to bring actions. to proceed any further. He did not know They prided themselves on the alleged fact, at what the Premier thought upon the matter. all events, that the law was for the poor man as Hon. members laboured under a considerable well as for the rich man, but by that clause a disadvantage at that end of the Chamber from poor man was placed on a different footing from the fact that a sufficient number of copies of the that upon which a rich man stood. Why not statutes was not available. An hon. member ha-:e the preliminary inquiry, in the case of every had asked him what was the meaninO" of the actwn brought, whether an affidavit was made Interdict Act, and he happened to know" what it; as t? the plaintiff having no visible means of was, but they were very much at a loss at that paymg costs or not? Why not let any defendant end of the Chamber for copies of the statutes. who chose make application, whether by affidavit He would like to hear the opinion of the Premier or not, for a preliminary inquiry on the ground on the subject of the amendment he suggested. tha~ the action was a frivolous one, and let the The PREMIER said it would be a very unfor­ certificate of the judge be an initial proceeding ~unate thing to ask a judge to form an ex pa1'te to the action being continued? He did not like Jndgment.on one side of the case without hearing the distinction drawn in the clause between tl:ie theothers1de. That would be a serious innovation, 1338 Supreme Court (Costs) Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. but of course they had not time that afternoon Women's Property Act. That would introduce a to discuss the question. Their Supreme Court new element altogether, and many of those persons was not a court of conciliation, nor was it desir­ who would come in under that Act might be those able that it should be. The judge had powers to who would be very anxiou~ to bring actions of stop frivolous actions, but it was seldom exer­ tort. So far as those actions of tort were con­ cised. He remembered a case of a frivolous cerned, he was with the hon. member for action being brought against a company in this Cambooya in his proposed new clause. colony, and he had applied, on behalf of the Mr. BARLOvV said he understood an action of company, to stay proceedings, as the action tort was an action for a wrong not founded on a was an absolutely frivolous one, ;md the court contract. Then why should they not confine stayed the proceedings. There was power to themselves to them? give relief of that kind now, and proceedings New clause put and passed. could be stayed when the action was really frivolous and absurd. If a man had enough means On clause 6, as follows :- to pay for the luxury of going to law, both "Any party to a matter before a judge sitting in for himself and the defendant, the defendant chambers may require it to be adjourned into court/' need not complain on that account. The object Mr. POWERS said he did not wish to press of the clause it was stated was to prevent the amendment he had given notice of in that blackmail being levied on any man, and it was clause unless the hon. gentleman said he could desirable to prevent a man who could not bear see his way to accept it. the consequences of his own conduct in going to The PREMIER said he could not accept it as law, being &llowed to do it at the other party's it would increase the expenses two or three times expense. No man should go to law unless he over. Things were now done in chambers in ten was prepared to bear the consequences if he lost, minutes by a couple of young clerks; but if they and the amendment of the hon. gentleman was were to take such cases into open court counsel entirely opposed to that. It might be a good would have to be heard, and what might cost thing to have in the Bill, but there was no time 13s. 4d. if heard in chambers, would cost, per-' to discuss it. haps, £20. It was quite impossible to accept ~tn Mr. BARLOW said if the hon. member for innovation like that. Carnarvon did not prees the amendment he had Mr. POWERS said he believed it would add to suggested he would not move it. the cost unless it was followed by the new clause Mr. FOXTON said, with regard to the he proposed to insert. However, if the Premier Premier's remark, that it was a complete innova­ could not accept the amendment he would not tion, he admitted that, as far as regarded the press it. defendant, it was an innovation; but in order to Clause put and passed. show hon. members that it was not altogether an Mr. POWERS proposed the following new innovation, he would read Order XIV., Rule 1, clause to follow clause 6 :- whichsaid- Any affidavit may hereafter be sworn before any H Where the defendant appears on a writ of summons justice of the peace, and all justices of the peace for the specially endorsed under Order IlL, Rule 6, the plain­ colony of Queensland are hereby authorised and em­ tiff may, on affidavit verifying the cause of action and powered to take affidavits without any commission being swearing that in his belief there is no defence to the issued for that pll.rpose. a-etion, call on the defendant to show cause before the New clause put and passed. court or a judge why the plaintiff should not he at liberty to enter final judgment for the amount so in­ The House resumed ; and the CHAIRMAN rec dorsed, together with interest, if any, a-nd costs, and ported the Bill with amendments. t.he court or judge may, unless the defendant by affi­ davit or otherwise satisfy the comt or judge that he has The rP-port was adopted, and the third reading a good defence to the action on the merits, or disclose of the Bill made an Order of the Day for to­ such facts as the court or judge may think sufficient to morrow. entitle him to be permitted to defend the action, make an order empowering the plaintiff to sign judgment MESSAGE FROM THE LEGISLATIVE accordingly." COUNCIL. It was now proposed to give the defendant TOWNSVILLE GAS COMPANY AcT AMENDMENT exactly the same right to have an action dis­ BILL. missed as frivolous that a plaintiff had already to obtain final judgment if the defence was The SPEAKER announced the receipt of a frivolous. That would make the justice of that message from the Legislative Council, intimating Order XIV., Rule 1, complete by giving that that leave had been given to the Hon. vV. Aplin right to the defendant. to attend and be examined by the select corn­ mittee appointed by the Legislative Assembly to The PREMIER : The judges can do it by rule report upon the Townsville Gas Company Act of court if they like. Amendment Bill. Mr. FOXTON said that that was the course SUPPLY. legislation should take, instead of making invidious distinctions between rich and poor. RESUMPTION OF 00li!MITTEE. However, he would not press the a~Jendment. On this Order of the Day being read, The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE said it was hardly The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker,-I move so serious as the hon. member imagined. Under that you do now leave the chair. Order XIV., Rule 1, when a plaintiff came to sign judgment on a specially indorsed writ, he Mr. DONALDSON said: Mr. Speaker,-I made an affidavit in the terms of the order, but should like to ask the Premier when it is likely in all cases, if the defendant made an affidavit in that the Loan Estimates will be laid on the table. which he set up some fact in the affidavit in issue, The PREMIER : Unless something unforeseen the judge invariably dealt with the matter at happens, they will be laid on the table to­ once. That order would not meet the case lnorrow. mentioned by the hon. member for Cambooya in Mr. GROOM said: Mr. Speaker, -Before you the amendment. He thought they were going leave the chair I wish to bring two matters under far enough. the notice of the Minister for Railways. There The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. H. used to be a train leaving Toowoomba at ten Tozer)saida very great number of suitors would be minutes to 8 a.m., but under the new time-table introduced, in addition to those there had been which came into operation on the 1st November previously, owing to the passing of the Married the train now leaves at half-past 7. There was Supply. [11 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1339

not the slightest intimation given to the general in the minds of the public. Meetings have public on the Darling Downs of any alteration in been held in several places around Brisbane, that train, and the result was that on the 1st calling attention to the inconvenience suffered November, if the stationmaster had not exercised under the new arrangement-especially out Sand­ a little discretion, seeing that the Commissioners, gate way and in the neighbourhood of Sherwood in their spirit of economy, do not appear to consider and Oxley. The arrangement works pretty it necessary to advertise and let the public smoothly in connection with places near to Bris­ know what they are doing-I say that if the bane as far as Indooroopilly ; but beyond that stationmaster had not used a little discretion, place the people are wor•e off than they have the tmin on that Saturday morning would have been four or five years back. And, as the hon. come to Brisbane perfectly empty as far as Too­ member for Toowoomba has stated, there is no woomba was concerned, and twenty persons, not approaching the Commissioners or the traffic knowing anything about the change, would have manager in the matter. They have been com­ lost their passages. Even now, through this not municated with, but they have simply replied being known in the country districts around to the effect that they intend to give the new Toowoomba, it happeng nearly every morning time-table a trial for a month, and they will not that persons who put up at hotels there walk listen to any representations on the subject. quietly down to the station to catch the train at The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS said : ten minutes to 8 arid find it gone. The public Mr. Speaker,-I am sorry in one way that the ought to be made acquainted with any alter­ hon. member for Toowoomba did not show me ation in the running of trains. There may the courtesy of informing me that he intended be a disposition on the part of the Com­ to bring this matter before the House, because missioners to economise in the matter of ad­ had he done so I should have been enabled to vertising, but there is such a thing as carrying give an answer different from that which I am economy too hr. There has been another able to give now. Hon. members must be aware illustration recently of the result of cutting clown that all the details in regard to traffic and other advertising expenses. A special train left Bris­ matters are exclusively and absolutely under the bane on Saturday for Toowoomba. It was well control of the Railway Commissioners, and that the advertised in Brisbane, both in the morning and Minister cannot possibly be seized of all the cliffe­ in the evening papers, and the result was that rentdetailsandfacts atamoment'snotice. I there­ 200 passengers went by the train. It was so fore regret exceedingly that the hon. member did heavy that it had to be divided into two parts at not show me the courtesy of giving me notice Helidon. On Monday morning a similar train that this matter was to be brought forward, so was to leave Toowoomba for Brisbane, the rates that I might be able to give some reliable infor­ being 7s. second-class and 15s. first-class, but not mation to the House. It must be clear to hon. a solitary person thereknewanythingaboutit. The members that the framing of a time·table is a Commissioners never advertised it, and the result matter of very considerable importance, requir­ was that the running of the train was a failure. ing a very considerable amount of attention to I think that if the Commissioners desire to en­ details, and possibly months of preparation before­ courage these excursion trains-which are a step hand, because many matters have to be con­ in the right direction-they ought to make the sidered and so arranged as to dovetail into one public acquainted with the necessary informa­ another, and suit the requirements of different tion. I believe that according to the new regu­ districts. The framing of the time-table that has lations members of Parliament and the general been referred to has taken considerable time, public are not allowed to approach the Commis­ Nothing seems to be more difficult than to frame sioners with respect to any matter connected time-tables which will suit all persons. The with the working of the railways, and this Rouse knowledge I have of this matter has been is now the only place where we can ventilate gained principally in the same way as hon. the grievances of the public in that respect. I members have gained their:<, that is, from the therefore bring these matters before the Minister newspapers, and I see from them that two or for Railways, in order that he may bring them three different time-tables have been proposed under the notice of the Commissioners. If the for one district. The people in different dis­ time of starting a train is altered from ten tricts are not at one among themselves; one minutes to 8 to half-past 7 the public ought, in lot of persons want one train and another lot all fairness, to be made acquainted with the another, and it is a matter of ccmsiderable intended alteration. In the Roma district, difficulty for the Commis9ioners to arrive at a judging from the Press, the feeling is very conclusion which will give general satisfaction. strong against keeping the people in entire The time-table that has been framed has been ignorance of the alteration in the running of published, and it is only fair and reasonable that trains ; and I hope the hon. gentleman will call it should have a fair trial, in order that its the attention of the Commissioners to the defects may be discovered. No one, not even matter. the Commissioners, would attempt to say that Mr. JESSOP said : Mr. Speaker,-I can the time-table does not possess defects ; but endorse what has been said by the hon. member a reasonable time should be allowed to per­ for Toowoomba, and as an instance I can refer mit of those defects being discovered. Hon. to the excursion train from Toowoomba to Dalby members may depend upon it that the Com­ and from Dalby to Toowoomba. Hardly any­ missioners are only too anxious to meet the one knew about the excursion, and the conse­ wishes and req'nirements of the public, as far quence was that the train was nearly empty. as they can do so consistently with the duties Any alteration in the time-table and any imposed upon them by the Act. I have found excur~ion train ought to be advertised in the every disposition on the part of the Commis· local papers. If the public are not made aware sioners to comply with the wishes of the people, that an excursion train is going to be run, it is but they have not always succeeded in giving evident that there will be very few passengers ; satisfaction. However, one good thing has been and when an application is made foe another done in bringin{r this matter forward. Such excursion train it may be refused by the things show that Parliament did the right thing Commissioners on the ground that only half a in removing the railwnys from the control of dozen persons travelled by the last one. political influence, and they show also that the Commissioners have the courage of their own Mr. GRIMES said: Mr. Speaker,-The new opinions, and do what they think is for the time-table, as arranged by the Commissioners, benefit of the Railway Department, and at seems to have caused a great deal of dissatisfaction the same time consistent with the interests Suppiy. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

of the public. I regret that I have not !had an was not left behind, as the hon. member for opportunity of acquainting myself with the Toowoomba has stated some people were, on one details of this matter, so as to be able to give occasion when coming down by the morning information to hon. members this afternoon. I train. It was by the merest accident that I shall not fail to take the earliest opportunity to­ heard there had been an alteration. I only morrow morning to draw the attention of the heard it at 5 o'clock in the morning, and I had Railway Commissioners to the matter, but I am to catch the half-pa;t 7 train. Had I not heard certain that their action has not been due to any it I should have made my arrangements for the undue economy. As far as I am concerned, quarter to 8 train, and the train would have I have never even directed the attention gone. As to bringing the matter before the of the Commissioners to the exercise of House, I was really astonished to hear the hon. economy in the issue of advertisements. member for Toow0omba say tbat a bar had been They have the matter in their own hands, and I set up and that nobody outside would be allowed think the Commissioners ought to be left to hereafter to approach the Commissioners. I manage the railways upon such a basis as it has never heard of that before. been arranged they should manage them on-that is, on a commercial baqis, in order to make the The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: It is railways pay. I am satisfied that there is no not so. desire on the part of the Commissioners to go in Mr. GROOM: It is the opinion of the publie for the so-called economy of withholding adver­ outside. tisements or of giving insufficient publicity to alterations in the time-tables. However, I Mr. NELSON: I never heard of it before; shall direct their attention to the matter and if it is so, I must be a great sinner, because on and I trust that in future timely pub­ the very day this first matter occurred I hap­ ~icity will be given of any alteration. Now, pened to meet the Chief Commissioner, and at JUSt one word with reference to the opinion once brought it under his notice, and he assured expressed by some hon. members that a new rule me that he had no knowledge that such was has been issued to the effect that the Commis­ the case, and he would take good care sioners will not receive deputations. No more that such a thing did not occur again. I met misleading statement was ever made. There is him again accidentally in the street this morning, no such rule ;' but the Commissioners fail to see and brought under his notice the very thing the that any usefal purpose can be served at the pre­ hon. member for Toowoomba has mentioned sent time IJy receiving deputation after deputa­ with regard to the special train yesterday morn­ tion setting forth their respective grievances, ing, and he was perfectly astonished when I told because in different districts there are different him that the people in and around Toowoomba opinions on the same subject. In one dis­ never heard a single word about it. I believe trict-Sandgate, I think-there are two or tbe same remark applies to Dalby, Roma, and three different sets of people who want other places along the line. Unless people different time-tables, and between them it living eight or ten miles from town get some is hard for the Commissioners to decide. intimation as to an alteration of trains, they may These deputations tend very much to interfere be put to great inconvenience. It does not affect with the management of the Rail way Depart­ people who live forty or fifty miles away so ment. The number of deputations that wait on much, because they generally come into town the Commissioners in connection with one the night before, but people who live ten or matter or the other, really seriously interfere twelve miles off come in expecting to catch the with their time. Sometimes the whole of the train at the usual hour, find it gone, and have to morning is occupied by the Chief Commissioner wait until next day before they can travel. in receiving deputations on different matters However, I am satisfied that now the matter has connected with the railways; and I honestly been brought prominently before the department inform hon. members that I have suggested it will be very speedily remedied. One of the to the Commissioners that they should appoint difficulties of the Commissioners with regard to one or two hours, on one or two mornings each making our railways pay is that they have to week, for the reception of deputations, because deal with a very sparse population as compared if the present system is carried on, they will with the population of other countries. That never have time to town of Sandgate. To Sandgate the time of the Commissioners, whose duty it is to people from all parts of the colony came to re­ manage the whole of the railways of the colony, cover their health, and there was also a very be taken up by deputations from the people of large resident population. If any town in the Brisbane and its suburbs ? A great deal of their colony should have a Government medical officer time is taken up in that way. it was Sandgate. ViTithin the last few years there had been one or two suicides and a murder The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Nearly in the district, and the police were at their wits'­ altogether. end how to act in emergencies of that kind. The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: They should Last year nearly 200,000 people passed through be relieved of that duty. Their duty is to Sandgate. The late Government appointed a manage the railways, not to receive deputations police magistrate to the district, and there was from people in and around Brisbane. The people now an urgent necessity for a medical officer of Townsville, Rockhampton, Bowen, and other there. He deemed it his duty to point out the distant towns have no opportunity of coming on existence of that urgent necessity, and he hoped deputations to them. that next year's estimate would contain an appro­ priation for a medical officer at Sandgate. He The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Their hoped he had said enough to press the claims of members do. the district upon the attention of the Colonial 'Ihe HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN : Then their Secretary, and he would be glad to get a promise members should not be allowed to do so. Any­ on the matter. thing to be done in that way should be done The COLONIAL SECRETARY said the hon. through the Minister for Railways, who is the member misunderstood the vote, which was for political head of the department. I know if I attendance upon gaols, immigrants, police, lock were a Commissioner I should set my face against hospitals, and aborigines. There was no gaol at it. If I were the Minister for Rail ways I should SandgatA; there were only two police there, and say to deputations : "Interview me; I will any medical assistance they required was pro­ communicate with the Commissioners, who no vided for in the latter part of the vote ; there doubt will entertain the suggestions you make." were no lock hospitals and no aborigines there so The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS : Depu­ far as he knew, and if an officer was appointed tations expect an answer at once. The Minister there would be nothing for him to do. could not give it. Mr. GLASSEY said he would like some in­ The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: As to the formation as to the items "health officer, Bris­ arrangement of the time-tables, of course, the bme, and visiting surgeon, St. Helena, Dunwich, late Minister for Railways and the present and Lytton-£400," and the "secretary, Medical Minister think the Minister should have nothing Board, £50." Who were those gentleman? How to do with them ; but nevertheless, no time-table often did the visiting surgeon visit St. Helena, can be lawful until it has passed the Executive. Dunwich, and Lytton, and what were his duties Of course, the Minister for Railways knows under the heading of " health officer, Brisbane ?" that. There was another item of £300 for additional medical officers and contingencies, including fees The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: No; to non-official members of the Medical Board. the tariff must be passed by the Executive; not Who were the members of the Medical Board? the time-tables. How often did they sit, and how often did they The HoN. J. M. MACROSS AN : I was under sit last year? He observed from the schedule the impression that the time-tables must pass the that the health officer for Brisbane was Dr. Executive, and I looked upon that as a safety­ Wray, and he presumed that that gentleman valve against the making of what may be called was also secretary of the Medical Board. How erroneous time-tables. For instance, the running often was he called upon to attend the Medical of the train from here to Wallangarra might be Board meetings, and what were his duties in at a very inconvenient hour in the afternoon, connection with the board? and I thought that could be stopped by the The COLONIAL SECRETARY said that Executive not passing the by-law. I know there the secretary of the Medical Board was Mr. was something said on that subject some time Horrocks. The board had cast upon them cer­ ago, and 7 o'clock was found a very convenient tain duties in connection with the registration hour, but if the Commissioners had made it 5 of medical practitioners, and the services of the o'clock it would have been very inconvenient. secretary to the board were performed for £50 I was under the impression that there was that a year. The salary of the health officer and safeguard, and unless the Minister for Railways visiting surgeon for St. Helena, Dunwich, and assures me from his reading of the Act that it is Lytton was £400. That office was filled by not so, I shall be compelled to think so still. I Dr. Wray, and he received a further £400 in am informed that I am right as far as the inter- another portion of the Estimates, the salary for 1342 [ASSEMBLY.]

the whole of his time being £800. The additional Mr. DALRYMPLE said the amount for the medical officers mentioned were such medical health officer at Mackay had been reduced by men in various parts of the colony as might be £30, but he was not aware of any diminution in called upon to attend the police, and who were the population during the past year. What was · not specified in the vote. Whatever medical the reason for the reduction? men charged in that way was paid out of con­ The COLONIAL SECRETARY said that tingencies. Non-official members of the Medical some time ago there was a large population in :Board were paid fees for attendance, and there Mackay, including a great number of kanakas. were fees in connection with inquiries and things Since the kanaka hospital there bad been of that kind. An officer at Townsville made a abolished, he saw no reason for treating Mackayin claim of £90 for examining a leper. Those a different manner from Bundaberg, which was amounts came 011t of the vote of £300 for con­ similarly situated. tingencies. Mr. AGNEW said he noticed £30 down for a Mr. GLASSEY said he would ask how often medical officer at Southport, but nothing for the visiting surgeon visited Dunwich, Lytton, Sandgate. and St. Helena? The COLONIAL SECRETARY: There is The COLONIAL SECRETARY : Twice a an officer in Brisbane who visits Sandgate. week. Mr. AGNEW said that last year 200,000 Mr. GLASSJ

Mr. MORGAN said he rose to a point of hon. members that nothing had given him more order; he would like to know if the hon. member trouble than the consideration of that question, was not g-etting a little off the track in talking because his sympathies were so much with educa­ about pans. What had that te do with Central tional institutions of that kind that he would Board of Health vote? like to see the subsidies extended if possible. He The CHAIRMAN : The hon. member is cer­ had, however, been an officer of one of the schools tainly wandering from the subject, which is the of art in the colony for many years, and really vote for the Central Board of Health. the institution did not meet the purposes for which it was intended. As a rule, the subscrip­ Mr. McMASTER said he thought that was tion to schools of art was 5s. per quarter or £1 the proper time and place to talk about the a year, and the number of subscribers was very ::leansing. of the city. Perhaps th~y had no pans limited. He hoped yet to see some system m vV arwwk at all. He was statmg that in the adopted, as in Victoria, by which instead of sub­ city of Brisbane the pans were washed-- sidising so-called schools of art they would give Mr. MORGAN said he rose to a point of more to mechanics' institutes and institutions order. He would again ask the ruling of the of the kind, to which the public would he Chairman. The hon. member had been ruled admitted free. Two or three years ago sub­ out of order, but he would not obey the Chair­ sidies were continued to institutions which were man's ruling. getting large proceeds from the sales of land. The CHAIRMAN : The hon. member is not The question of a free library, with branches in order in discussing the cleansing of the city of throughout the colony would receive his attention Brisbane on this vote. during the recess. He could assure the Com­ Mr. McMASTER said he would say no more mittee that his heart was in the work connected about the pans, as he thought he had said enough with educational institutions, and he would do to convince the hon. member for l:lundanba that ;vhr~t-~;~ur h.:; cvu.ld. fvr th8nJ. irl th~ dh~e(!tiGY! he he had not been speaking of the city of Brisbane. had indicated. The Board of Health could be worked with less Mr. DONALDSON said he was surprised to money, but he did not think the secretary's find that an hon. member who had been con­ salary should be reduced. nected with a school of arts could defend the · Mr. L UYA said he could not allow some of the reduction of the vote. Surely, he ought to have remarks made by the hon. member for Nundah some knowledge of the great good done by c9ncerning the Brisbane Hospital to go uncontra­ schools of art throughout the colony, not only diCted. Some years ago he had the honour of being in the towns in which they were situated, a member of the committee of the Brisbane Hos­ hut also in the country places around them. The pital, and he knew for a fact that no patients hon. gentleman had not correctly informed the were sent to Sandgate until all danger of Committee as to the Victorian svstem. In that their spreading the dh;ease from which they had colony there were certainly free reading-rooms suffered had passed away. The convalescent connected with schools of art, but in other home at Sandgate was well attended, and if a respects those institutions were managed the doctor was needed there he could be summoned same as in Queensland. He was confident from Brisbane. The Colonial Secretary would that the rednction would cause a great amount find that the Brisbane Hospital was partly under of dissatisfaction throughout the colony, be­ Government control, as the Government nomi­ cause those institutions were such a boon nated one-half of the members of the committee to the people. A very large number of people of the institution, the other half being elected took ad vantage of the Brisbane School of by the subscribers. A better managed institu­ Arts. The subscription was £1 a year, but tion than the Brisbane Hospital did not, in his that institution could do with a great deal more opinion, exist in the world. money if it was available. With regard to a free public library, he thought that one ought to Mr.• \.GNEW said he did not wish to argue have been establi,,hed long ago, and he hoped the question with the hon. member, as he did not that Brisbane would not much longer be the only think that was either the time or place to do so. capital in the Australian colonies without a free He thought the hon. member had contradicted public library. He regretted the action taken himself in the remarks he had just made, as the by the hon. gentleman in reducing the vote, and hon. member had said that no one was sent down he thought the Committee should have a promise there while there was any danger of their that the full amount would he put on the Esti­ spreading disease, and in the next breath he told mates next year. the Committee that the doctors went down to the convalescent home at Sandgate, and that in Mr. SMYTH said he should very much like to many cases they were telegraphed for from see the schools of art get the same amount as Brisbane. before, hut he supposed they could not have it if Mr. LUYA: When required. the Treasurer could not afford to give the money. He would object to a free library being established Mr. AGNEW: Exactly, when relapses in Brisbane at the expense of the rest of the colony. occurred. He had himself often seen patients He was in Auckland some time ago and there he from the home going hack to the hospital, and saw the free library attached to the municipal he had taken them up in his buggy when they chambers. Sir George Grey gave books to the were going back. value of £12,000, and another gentleman gave a. Question-That £650 only be granted-put and collection of valuable pictures and a sum of negatived. money, about £11,000, the interest of which was Question-that £850 be granted-put and used for the purchase of new books. In addition passed. to that, the ratepayers paid ~d. in the £1 a _year PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS. towards the support of the library. If the Bris· The COLONIAL SJ

amount last year being £GOO. For Toowoomba many of the. schools of art in the bush town there was nothing last year, but the amount now were merely reading rooms, but at the same time set down was £250. Maryborough, Bundaberg, they served a very useful purpose. Men coming Rockhampton, and Townsville each received down from he bush went there instead of £250 last year, and there was the sum of £250 boozing at the public-house, and he appealed to down for each of them now. For theipswichSchool hon. members representing large centre~ of popu­ of Arts there was nothing last year, and £:l50 for lation to aHist the country members in getting the present year in aid of technical education. the endowment of £1 for £1continued. As thehon. He did not complain of those amounts being member for Charters Towers had stated, it seemed given to Ipswich and other places, but he did very strange that while the vote for technical not see why other places should be left out. education in schools of art in large cpntres of popu Charters Towers would compare with any town lation was being increased, the grant to country in the colony, outside Brisbane, in point of schools of art was decreased. He did not wish population, but there was nothing put down for to impute motives, but it looked very like pan­ that town, and he was surprised at the omission, dering to the popular vote. He trusted that because the Mini,ter for l\Iines, who had charge the Colonial Secretary would listen to the of the vote for technical education, knew the appeals of hon. members, and continue the en­ great advantage it w,,., to the young people on dowment of £1 for £1. the goldfieldo. If the £1 for £1 endowment to Mr. SMITH said he certainly sympathised schools of art had been continued, and the with schools of art in the outlying portions of Government had been able to give a\1 ay that the colony, but he did not suppose the Govern­ £250 besides, no one could have complained; ment would increase the vote. A free re:J.ding­ but when the vote to schools of art was reduced room, !lS all hon. members were aware, was a by one-half, he could not '·.ee on what grounds the great boon to the poorer classf·il, and he would Government could ask for the extra amounts to suggest that a compromise might be arrived at in which he had referrPd. that matter by the Government agreeing to con­ Mr. P ALMER said there was a sum of tinue the old endowment in all cases where the £253,885 down on th·· Estimates for public instruc­ schools of art made their reading-rooms free to tion; and considering the enormous benefit derived the public. That would certainly be a step in from schools of art throughout the colony, he did the right direction, and as the Colonial Secretary, not see why the vote should be reduced by £2,700. iri. common with other hon. members, was desirous It was not wise policy to cut down that vote as to see education diffused among the masseb of the was proposed by the Government. Schools of people, pob·~.ibly he might accept that proposition. art in inland places were centres of attraction to Mr. LITTLE said he stood in a uifferent bush men when they came to town, and every position from that occupied by any other member encouragement should be given to those institu­ of the Committee. The electorate which h& tions. No money voted on the Estimates was represented contained four schools of art-one better laid out than that granted to schools of at Port Douglas, one at Herberton, one at art. He had presented a petition from the Irvinebank, and one at Montalbion. They were ~chool c,f arts at Normmton, and almost every not free reading-rooms, but miners who were not member of the Committe3 had presented a members had access to the rooms, and no man similar petition against the proposed reduction, who had not resided in the district could which showed that public opinion was strongly conceive what an immense benefit those in­ in favour of the original endowment being paid stitutions were to the men who belonged by the Government. to them. They had subscribed money out Mr. L UYA said he regretted very much th'l.t of their own pockets for the erection of the the Government had seen fit to reduce thllt vote. buildings, and had got together libraries which '!'hey had free education in the colony, and he would compare favourably with those in larger did not know that they could expend money in centres of population. Some persons thought that any better way than by supporting schools of pBople in the far North were savages, but they art in large centres of population. At all events were nothing of the sort. They were trying to he claimed from the Colonial Secretary the educate their children properly, and he hoped the fulfilment of an implied promise that when a Government would not curtail the endowment. school of arts was made into a free library and If it could be increased, he would certainly sup­ reading-room it should have a grant. That had port a proposal to increase it. been done in the borough of South Brisbane, The COLONIAL SECRETARY said he could where they had had a free public library and assure hou. members, as his predecessor had reading-room now for about twelve months. The done, that he would do all he could possibly do committee saw their way to initiate it when they in the matter, either in the present form or some were receiving the endowment of £1 for £1, and other form. In 1H88 the late Colonial Secretary he was afraid that if that endowment was not said that- continued they would have to revert to the old H He, as well as other members of the Government, system. Of course the institution was also regretted they were not able, in the present state of tbe supported by members who had the privilege of finances, to recommend a larger vote. Hon. members tnight take the wm·d of the Government that when a taking books home, so that, as far as they were favourable time came, increases in that vote would concerned, it was a circulating library. As far be one of the first that would receive consideration, as as the general public were concerned, it was schools of art were a benefit to the community at merely a reading-room, but the library was open large." to visitors, provided the books were read on the As one of the members who accepted that state­ premises. Members enjoyed other facilities, ment, he repeated it now, and hoped hon. mem­ such as class rooms and private reading-rooms. bers would accept it from him. The institution was, however, the first free public Mr. POWERS said he thought that was fol­ library in Queensland, and the Gov<:)rnment lowed by a resolution of the House, moved by the would only be doing their duty in carrying out hon. member for Toowoomba, to the effect that it the implied promise of the Colonial Secretary, was desirable that the endowment of £1 for £1 and giving a substantial grant to the institution. should be continued, and that the Government Mr. PAUL said he had presented a petition accepted that expre;;sion of the opinion of the against the reduction of the endowment to schools House, and brought in an additional amount on of art, and when he was among his constituents the Supplementary Estimates. The Colonial he promised that he would do all he could to get Secretary might do the same thing in the the present grant continued. He admitted that :present case. Schools of art were admittedly of Supply. [11 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1347

very great use throughout the colony, and the municipal councils to·establish them, and under people would not begrudge the extra £2,750 being the next clause they were entitled to receive placed on the Supplementary Estimates. As to endowment from the consolidated revenue ac­ the remarks of the hon. member for Charters cording to the population of the district, the Towers in respect to the reduction of the vote of lowest being £100 in a district where the £750 for the Technical College, Brisbane, the population was 300 souls, the next £200 where hon. member was really suggesting that they the population was 1,000, and so on. He was should take away the vote for what was pro­ very glad to see that the local bodies in that perly the work of schools of art, and if he suc­ colony were taking ad vantage of those provisions, ceeded in doing that he might also succeed in because not very long ago he saw an account of reducing the vote of £250 for technical educa­ where Sir Henry Parkes opened one of those tion at Charters Towers. Schools of art were institutions, and expressed his gratification that originally established for those purposes, and not they were increasing in different parts of the as reading-rooms and circulatin;; librarie-s; the colony. He (Mr. Groom) only hoped that some vote for technical education should be increased similar provision would be made here, because, rather than decreased. as the hon. member for Charters Towers had Mr. ISAMBERT said it would be a very said, if a large sum was to be spent for a free serious thing to reduce that vote, particularly so library in Brisbane, undoubtedly some provision far as country institutions were concerned. They should be made for similar institutions in the heard a great deal about the evils of drink, and country districts. With regard to that vote, he yet what better convenience or attraction to thought that if the Colonial Secretary would bushmen was there Ghan to have a school of arts to promise that if the colony was in a more pros­ go to on arriving in town, instead of sitting perous state next year he would restore it to the down and drinking in a public-house ? If the original amount, it should be allowed to pass. Govern1nent were serious in giving sub­ Mr. AGNEW said, looking at the immense stantial aid to sobriety they would not reduce amount of good that was done by school.e of art that useful vote. With regard to free libraries, throughout' the country, and also at the fact that he did not see that it was so important to have some of them would scarcelv be able to carry on one in a city like Brisbane, where so many more with the reduced endowment, he thought it facilities existed for getting books than there were would be a very graceful act on the part of the in the country districts. He would also tell the Government to put an additional sum on the Colonial Secretary that he would find that he Supplementary Estimates for their assistance. would not be allowed to make fish of one and Mr. SAYERS said he wished to point out that flesh of another. On page 72 of the Estimates all places with large populations would get the £250 was down for the National AsRociation, full amount allowed, £200, because they would and if the hon. gentleman thought !, as going have no difficulty in getting 400 subscribers, but it to get that through when schools of art were was the outside districts that would be defrauded. cut down one-half, he was very much mistaken. Brisbane, for instance, got £750 for technical In fact, he might find a little stonewalling, of education. which he had given such :< useful lesson some time ago, unless he consented to put an addi­ An HoNOURABLE MEMBER: No. tional sum for those institutions on the Supple­ Mr. SAYERS said it was so ; he took the item mentary Estimates. He (Mr. Isambert) objected as it appeared on the Estimates. At the smaller to that suicidal cheeseparing economy, which did places, where it was most required, the endowment no good to the colony. was reduced. Mr. GROOM said he hoped there would be no The PREMIER said it was always a pleasant stonewalling over that vote. He was afraid that and popular thing to advocate expenditure, and it they must accept the inevitable in respect to it. was disagreeable and unpopular to refuse it. At He deeply regretted that the finances of the the same time, with an empty Treasury, it was colony were such that that vote had to be cut the duty of the Government to see where they down, because he happened to know one or could save money. Everybody sympathised two schools of art that had entered into con­ with schools of art, which, however, ought more tracts for a supply of books, not antici­ properly to be called reading-rooms, which they pating for a moment that that vote would rea1ly were. But much as he sympathised with be cut down, especially as the House was them, he had serious doubts as to whether it was so inundated with petitions last year, that theoretically justifiable for the public Treasury the Government were compelled to increase the to subsidise to a large extent public read­ amount. That was not through his action, as ing-rooms, which were, after all, avail­ was stated by the hon. member for Burrum. He able for a limited number of people. It had no wish to take credit which he did not was, to a certain extent, a part of the deserve. The action he took on that occasion educational vote ; but it was not right to was in relation to agricultural and horticultural assume that every public reading-room estab­ societies, and the Government were afraid to lished in the colony had a right to expect to be go to a division upon his motion, bec:cuse subsidised from the public Treasury. Recognis­ they knew it would be carried by a ing all the advantages of reading and education, large majority. So impressed was he with still there was another side to the question ; the value of those societies that he would and he believed there would be not one less ask the House to pass that resolution again reading-room in the colony if there were no that session. The Hon. the Colonial Secre­ Government subsidy at all, and if the people tary said if there were free reading-rooms who supported them had to find their own books throughout the colony he would be disposed to and newspapers. Hon. members must look upon grant the larger amount, and he would point out the matter as it really stood, and ask them­ that schools of art were almost free reading­ selves was it one on which the country was rooms. No stranger was ever refused admittance bound to expend money by way of subsidy; and to the reading-room of a school of arts in any in his opinion the reduction of the subsidy would town of the colony that he was aware of. not diminish the useful influence exercised by He would like to see free libraries established in those establishments. all parts of the colony, and he held in his hand Mr. GROOM said he was afraid the Premier the Municipalities Act of New South \Vales, had a very limited idea of the impoverished which provided for the e"tablishment of those condition of the people in the interior. institutions there. Clause 141 gave power to The PREMIEIV ; I do not believe it, 1348 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. GROOM said it was not likely hon. use to say some missionaries had undertaken the members would say that such a state of things work, pHhaps in a very perfunctor:J: so~t of man­ existed if it did not exist. In many diHtricts, ner, b<,cause they could not do JUStice to so but for the Government endowment, both agri­ large a question. cultural societies and schools of art would cease Mr. SAYEHS : How would you suggest that to exist· and that, not from any unwillingness the vote should be expended 2 on the' part of the people to subscribe, but because they had not the means to do so. Mr. SMITH said he would make a sug:gestion if the Colonial Secretary would adopt It. He The PREMII~R : "Where is the money to come would suggest that a protector should be ap­ from? pointed in each di~trict of the colony, ~nd he Mr. GROO:NI said one of the hon. gentleman's should have a certam sum placed at his d1sposal co!leagur .o imposed a tariff which was exacting to distribute as required. Anyone visiting the £250 000 a year chiefly from the working classes, aboriginals' camps would be appalled at the and 'they expected some return for it, and the miserable condition they were in. One-half return asked for was a very small one. The hon. of them were simply dying from disease, gentleman mu<•t not judge of the condition of the and a trifling e:xpenditure in medicine would whole of the colony from what he saw in the sur­ relieve them considerably. He hoped the hon. roundings of Brisbane. \Vhere there was a sparse gentleman would do something in that (\irection; population the calls made on the people were very and where a police magistrate was stationed, he great-the building of churches and schools, would be a proper functionary to undertake the the sustentation of hospitals, the salaries of work. If "•ome person in authority in ea? h. dis­ clergymen, in fact, eYerything ; and they had trict was a ppninted protector for the abor!gmes, not the means at their disposal to increase a aood deal could be done, as where It was their subscriptions. With regard to the .£750 nobody's busines' to hear complaints of abuser, granted to Brisbane in connection with the practised on the aborigines there could be no technical college, it only went to the school of remedv poesible. He trusted the matter would arts in the sense that the college was adminis­ receive the attention of the Colonial Secretary, tered by the committee of the school of arts. It who he was sure, would approve of his sugges­ was not for books and newspapers, but for tion'if he could realise the condition of most of technktl education only, and there was no money these unfortunate creatures. voted by Parliament which was productive of so much good to the general community. J\;Ir. DONALDSON said that prior to his trip to the North he had little idea of the number of •Question put and passed. aborigines in the colony. In the interior of the MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES. colony there was not much to complain about in The COLONIAL SECRETARY moved that the condition of the aborigines, as the employ­ £13 030 be granted for miscellaneous services. ment they received did them good and kept On' the total vote there was a saving of £7,104. them out of mischief, and though the wages they There was a reduction of £500 in the item for received were small, they were kept out of incidental and miscellaneous expenses, of £50 in the towns. Unfortunately, when they congre­ grants to cemeterieo, of £200 in European gated near the towns they acquired bad habits. telegmms, of £200 for the erection of pounds, of Dnrin~ his trip in theN orth he had never seen £50 for foreign interpreters, and £2,000-from so ma';',y blacks together since he was a boy as £3 000 to £1,000-for relief of aboriginals and he saw at Ingham. There must have been 300 m~intenance of aboriginal reserves. The item of of them together there, and going further north £1,000 more than represented the money ex­ he saw a lar"e number on the J ohnstone River, pended on the vote last year. There was an who he was informed, had only recently come increaRe of £600 for fire brigades, and a new in a~d were but s2mi-civilised. He agreed that item of £5CO, under a regulation of the Civil the Government should do something for them, Service Board, for allowance to officers stationed and if they were once brought in from their in distant parts of the colony for extra pro­ scrubs and fastnesse; and given employment, it visions. would be better forth em than living in the state of barbarity in which they did live. He was not Mr. SMITH said he regretted that so small a one of those who sympathised with the shooting sum as £1,000 was to be voted for the relief of down of blacks they had so frequently heard of. aboriginals and the maintenance of aboriginal No doubt in some instances it was necessary to reserves. What was .£1,000 for such a purpose protect life and property, but they knew 'of a over the whole colony? They would not be number of cases in Australia where blacks had doing their duty by the aboriginals unless they been shot down indiscriminately. It was nearly spent a far larger sum in relieving their dis­ time that the Government did something to tress. The late Government pnt down a sum benefit the condition of the blacks, and of £3,000 for that particular purpose. He be­ £1 000 would not go far in that direction. lieved they intended to adopt some system of 'fl;ere was a good deal to work upon, as dealing with the aborigines to relieve them from the Colonial Secretary would find if he only the· distress that prevailed amongst them. If made proper inquiries ; and hi~ collE;ague, hon. members only knew the miserable condi­ the Minister for Lands, could give h1m a tion the aborigines were in where they resided great deal of useful information, as he had given near centres of population, they would gladly it to him (Mr. Donaldson) a few months ago. He vote a much larger sum than £1,000 for their knew there was a vote for blankets ; but there relief. In New South Wales, where they had was a great deal of difficulty in distributing that nothing like the number of aborigines there was vote and in some places the blankets sent out in this colony, the Government spent £9,990 on wer~ not used for the purpose for which they them. That was the sum on the Estimates there were intended. There was a difficulty in connec­ for 1889. tion with the sending in of returns of the number An HoNOURABLE MEMBER : We spend more wanted · and speaking of Ingham again he could than that. There is a vote for blankets for the say that at the distribution of blankets there aborigines. before the Queen's birthday, which was about the Mr. SMITH mid he did not mean the relief time they were usually distributed, there were of the blacks by giving them blankets. What not enough for the blacks who had come in, let he meant to say was, that the Government were alone for those who had not come in. Something neglecting their duty in not instituting some should be done to induce the blacks to come system for dealingjwith the aboriginals. It was no into the settlements. The Governments of the Supplp. [11 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1349

different colonies had done little for the aborigi­ thinking; and when a proposal was made in con­ nals, and it was time something should be done nection with the question it would not come upon to better their condition. hon. members as something altogether new. The COLONIAL SECRETARY said that Mr. P ALMER said he did not think that any before he had crossed over to the Government scheme which could be introduced would alter benches he had journeyed throughout the North the inexorable law of nature that the aboriginals of the colony, and had a vailed himself of the must fade away before civilisation. The JYiaories opportunity then afforded of conversing with and the American Indians, who were far superior many persons about the aborigines. He thought to the Australian aboriginals, were dying out, he could fairly estimate the total number of and so were the blacks. He did not suppose the blacks in the colony at about 10,000. That settlers of Australia could be charged with any was the best estimate he was able to arrive greater amount of crime in connection with the at, and he thought it was pretty accurate. aboriginals than the settlers in other new A good many of them were wild, but a good countries ; and, as far as he could see, not much many were not. The late Government took good would ensue from the preservation of the some steps towards alleviating the condition of race. the blacks, and he was continuing in the course adopted by them. At one place the allowance Mr. SMYTH said he had a letter from a was £200 per annum, at another £150, and at member of the J3urrum Divisional Board, also a another £240 per annum. At one station the copy of a letter addressed to the Chief Secre­ allowance had been increased from £12 per tary, complaining of the manner in which opium month to £18 per month ; and at another place was supplied to the blacks in the Burnett dis­ the allowance was £5 per month. In various trict, and asking him that the law should be other places allowances were made which would made so stringent that opium should only be absorb the whole of the vote. There was a sold for meJicinal purposes. It was well known balance of £700, which would enable him to carry that the blacks in the Burnett district were on during the year. The late Colonial Secretary, killing themselves with opium ; and jt was Mr. Morehead, made provision for the blacks generally supposed that thLy got it from the about Brisbane in the shape of a huilding at Chinese, although he had been informed that Bribie, which would shortly be occupied; and he some mMoreton Bay blacks were a fine matters that induced him to call Mr. Milman lot of fellows at one time, and they subsisted the police magistrate from Cooktown to confer very well as long as there were only squatters with him about the aboriginals in that part of in the country, but as population increased the colony. He could aesure the Committee that they got drink and opium and disease, and it the aboriginals would never be forgotten by him. was re::tlly impos;:ible to stop them dying off. :Mr. PAUL said the late Government sent Mr. And all the missionaries they could get would G. P. M. Murray, who was formerly an inspector not help to stop it, It was a melancholy thing to of police, and had more experienc<:> of the say, but it was- a fact. He had had great ex­ blacks than any other officer in the service, to perience in the matter, and he contended that inquire into the condition of the blacks in they could not relieve the blacks. All they the North, but unfortunately that officer's report could do was to give them a blanket on the had not been printed. He intended to move Queen's Birthday, and a bit of tobacco. The that the papers be laid on the table, so that hon. member for Gympie argued that they hon. members might read them and see what should stop the sale of opium. By all means let ought to be done. Re had had a great deal of them stop it if it could be done. l'vhny of the experience with regard to the aboriginals, and he aboriginals would make useful servants were it felt that it was incumbent on the Government to not for opium and grog; but as soon as they got do something for them. They had been driven those they bec'>me utterly u"eless. But how off their best hunting grounds, and inspectors were they going to stop them getting opium? If ought to be appointed to ration them, but not in a law was made against the sale of opium people the neighbourhood of goldfields, where they would not sell it, but would give it away, and he would come in contact with white people. He did not think it was pos9ible to prevent the blacks did not believe in the missionary stations; but getting opium. for the sake of humanity they ought to follow Mr. vVLYIBLE said he thought they had been the example of the other colonies, and do some­ travelling in the wrong groove in this discus­ thing practical for the aboriginals. sion. It was not so necessary to consider the The PREMIER s:1id he had that day received blacks as to protect the settlers, and it could a letter from the Hon. J. Douglas, Government be done by a humane system, and not by the Resident at Thursday Island, calling attention system of "dispersing'' which had been the to the case of the blacks on the northern part of usual method until very lately. The selectors in Cape Y ark Peninsula, who were only now begin­ the district he represented had been afforded a ning to be well known. They appeared to be protection they knew nothing of two years ago. more civilised than the rest of the blacks, and Up to that time selectors in the Barron V alley also more ferocious. Mr. Douglas suggested that were from time to time robbed entirely of their they ought to be dealt with in the same way a"s produce, and could not raise a crop. He had the tribes of New Guinea, and governed by means m his possession a list of from thirty to of their own chief"" The scheme he suggested fortv selectors who had had losses averaging was worthy of consideration, and he (the Premier) frorr1 £30 to £150 ; and in consequence of the mentioned it now because it might set people depredations committed by the blacks, and their 1350 Suppl!J. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppt,y.

constant losses, many of them "contemplated arms, but he did not use them. He then killed giving up their holdings. They brought the a bullock and g:we it to them, with some flour matter before him, and he studied it up with and potatoes. He afterwards applied to the Go­ the view of suggesting some relief for them, vernment for assistance. The present Colonin,l and subsequently he laid a scheme before the Tren,surer, who was in office at the time, visited late Colonial Secretary, which that hon. gentle­ the district n,nd subsequently granted £30 a year man in part adopted. The scheme was to Jimmy Byrnes, and another £30 to another simply to bring the blacks into a camp and person for the purpose of supplying food to the give them food with an assurance that they blacks, n,nd they did an immense amount of good. could obtain food if they came for it, but they must As the hon. member for Cairns had said, there not molest the selectors. That scheme had been were many tribes there who were always at war very successful, and for the last nine or ten with one another, and 1Ir. Murray's report was months anything like a depredation had been perfectly correct. There was no one better unknown in the district. qualified to deal with the subject than that Mr. ARCHER : A man was killed there only gentleman, who had been thirty-three years a short time ago. among the blacks. He hoped the Colonial Secre­ tary would see thn,t provisions allowed to the abo· Mr. WIMBLE said he would explain how riginals in the districts of vVoothakata and Cairns that occurred. The Government sent Mr. Mnrray would not be curtaiied. To bring them into camp to theN orth to report upon a scheme for relieving wn,s absurd. The great object was to conciliate the blacks and protecting the settlers from their them; to create a feeling of confidence and kind­ depredations. Mr. Murray might have had ness. George Olarke, of the Russell River, had great experience in other parts of the colony, done a great deal to civilise the blacks there by but he was entirely at fault in his report regarding den,ling with them honestly and fairly, and pay· his (Mr. Wimble's) district. In one part of his ing them for the work they did, and only one report Mr. Murray suggested that a large reserve man had been killed there, and that was through should be formed, and the blacks brought into his own fault. it. Bnt supposing they followed out that sugges­ tion, what about the tribal difficulties that would Mr. DALHYMPLE said the aborigines who arise ? Why the various tribes would fight committed depredations were nota ttachecl to home­ among themselves, and slaughter one another steads, but that was because the moment theycom· on the reserve. Then Mr. Murray further mitted the depredation they cleared out, and were suggested that they should not give food to the attached to thehomesteadnolonger. The question young men, but only to the old men. That was wn,s a very difficult, and, at the same time, a attempted to be carried "aut. The blacks who serious one. It was admitted on all hands had been supplied with food previously came in that something was due to the n,borigines, the usual manner to get another supply, and when because they had been deprived of their hunt­ they found they could not obtain it they ing grounds; but the difficulty was whn,t murdered the man. That was the result of the w:ts best to do for them. If they were instructions issued on Mr. Murray's report; he given blankets in any place where there said that without wishing in any way to reflect was a fair amount of settlement, the usual course on Mr. Murray. He trusted that the Colonial wn,s to trade them away for rum. The Colonial Secretary would ben,r in mind that they should Secretary had stated that in New Guinea there not consider so much the protection of the blacks was a protector of the natives n,ppointed, who as the protection of the settlers. Civilisation could was armed with certain powers, but the difficulty not be stayed for the aboriginals. If they were in Queensland was that when anyone took an brought into camp they could be made very useful intewst in the blacks and did his best for to the selectors in a new country. By giving them them, he had no control over them, and food they would attach the blacks to the home­ they were often led away, or went into posi­ stead and get them to assist in felling timber. tions of temptation. The Rev. Father Bucas, When once they were attached to the homestead the parish priest of Mackay, whose nn,me was they were perfectlytrustworthy, and no depreda­ respected everywhere it was known, had been tion would take place, and if the scheme which endeavouring for some years as a missionary to had been in vogue in his district for the last reclaim the blacks in that district. He took up a eighteen months were continued, he felt confident selection, upon which he kept a large number it would prove successful. employed, and where they used to resprt; but he Mr. LITTLE said he thought he was prett was ultimately compelled to give the experi­ well qualified to speak on that question, :ctnd that ment up. The blacks had become sufficiently he probably knew as much about the blacks as civilised to know that they were as free of the hon. member for Cairns. He admitted that his control as anybody else. Be might tpJl there were a few blacks in the district repre­ them it was wrong to get drunk, but they would sented by the hon. member. He had been reply that white men did the same, and so after up there many years before the hon. mem­ all his hard work he had to give up the experi­ ber, when they were actually troublec-ome. The ment. The rev. gentlemn,n hn,d told him thn,t he other evening the hon. member for Leichhardt believed he could have achieved success if he was laughed at when he stated that the black hn,d hn,d some authority over the blacks and it trackers were instituted for the protection of the was recognised by the police, so that he could aboriginals. But he was perfectly correct. exercise some sort of supervision over their He (Mr. Little) knew, from his own ex­ actions, but without that it was useless to attempt perience, that when the blacks were committing to carry on. depredations the moment the native police ap­ Question put and passed. peared those depredations ceased, and the moment they left, the depredations began again. The DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. black trackers were n,ctually a protection to the The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. Sir aboriginals as well as to the white man. He S. W. Griffith) moved that £4,690 be granted believed the first place where giving food to the for salaries and contingencies of the Attorney­ blacks was tried was in the district of W ootha­ General's Department. There was only one kata. Jimmy Byrnes, one of the best Austra­ increase of £10 to a clerk, and a reduction in the lians he ever heard of, once b10ught in a lot of item for tra veiling expenses of Crown prosecu­ blacks to within tw£,lve miles of Thornborough. tors. The estimates of the department had been He got tbem in the bush, surrounded them, and revised by the late Government very cn,refully, brought them in by force under threat of using and no change had been made in them. Supply. [11 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1351

The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN said he would :Mr. :MORGAN said he should like to have a ask if the hon. gentleman's attention had been distinct statement from the Attorney-General called to the delay that had taken place in the that the practice he had comphtined of was business of the Northern Supreme Court through illegal. There ought to be some genera.! instruc­ the non-arrival of the Crown Prosecutor, and tion to the police on the subject. whether he thought the time had not arrived when that officer should reside in his district The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said be had no in the same way as the judges? hesitation in saying what the rule ought to be, or what it was, though ,s·hether the police had The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the delay been instructed to act according to it he did not referred to was caused by the stei1mship arrange­ know. There was no doubt that, although the ments being completely disorganised through the police were justifird in keeping in safe custody strike, and he was glad to find that that was everything which a prisoner might have in his the only inconvenience that had been caused possession at the time of his arrest, th~y had no to the administration of justice throughout the right, in a case where it was not even suspected whole of the strike. As to the general question that his money bad been stolen, to deprive him as to whether the Crown Prosecutor should of his means of defence. reside in his district, he had thought for a long time that it was desirable he should do so. The Mr. DONALDSON saio his experience in that first Crown Prosecutor, JYir. Cancdell, who was n'·-,pect was somewhat different from that of the appointed by himself in 1874, received the hon. member for \Yarwick. He remembered a appointment on condition that he did reside case in Victoria where a man stole a sum of in the district. That condit.ion was not re­ money, and he not only managed to pay out of it quired in the case of Mr. Cooper, now Mr. a solicitor at the preliminary inquiry, but a Justice Cooper, nor in the case of his suc­ barrister afterwards. The man was convicted, cessor, :Mr. Power. He (the Attorney-General) but the whole of the money that had been stolen did not take any active part in the administra­ went in lawyers' fees. tion of that department; but he knew that his Mr. GLASSEY asked how much of the vote hem. colleague, the Solicitor-General, took con­ for fees to justices, surgeons' fees, burial charges, siderable interest in that question, having spoken and incidental expenses had been spent? to him on the subject; but. he did not know The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that whether he had come to any conclusion respecting' ab~ut the amount set down had been spent. it yet. They could not control the amounts as they The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE said it frequently were fixed by statute, but for the year about happened that a Crown Prosecutor had to be £1,300 was required. sent up North on short notice, and the delay Mr. GLASSEY said he saw an item of £1,000 referred to was quite unavoidable. for drafting Bills. Was there an o!ficer Mr. MORGAN said he woulo call the atten­ appointed for that work, and could prrvate tion of the Attorney-General to two cases, one members avail themselves of his services? at Allora and the other at ·warwick, which had The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it come under his notice within the last six weeks. had been proposed about two years ago to In both those cases the men were arrested on a app0int a parliamentary draftsman at a salary criminal charge, the one at Allora of illegally of £1,000 a year. He sat on the other side of using a horse, and, the other at vV arwick of the House at the time, and he strongly advised stabbing; and each, when arrested, had money the Government not to do that, but to place in his possession which undoubtedly belonged to a corresponding amount on the Estimates for him. That money, in each case, was taken pos­ the drafting of Bills, as it was not certain who session of by the police, and when the accused was the best man to appoint. It was thought persons applied for it in order to fee solicitors better to employ different counsel for some time. to defend them they were met with a point­ Private members could avail themselves of the blank refusal; and when application was made services of counsel in the drafting of Bills. The to the police magistrate for authority to hand Government were only anxious to get the work over the money they were told the magistrate done as well as possible. He could not say how had no power to do anything of the kind. much of the vote would be spent. In so1r.e countries, if a man, a pauper, was tried on a criminal charge, the Crown Mr. DONALDSON: Not so much now that assigned counsel to him; but those men had you are in charge. money which undoubtedly belonged to them, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: There has and yet the power to defend themselves by been a saving lately. means of counsel had been taken away from Question put an cl passed. presumedly innocent persons. The man at Warwick had £8 in his possession, and the means CROWN SOLICITOR (BRISBANE). of placing his case fairly before the court were , The ATTORNEY-GI

for two clerkR at £250, and what was required The HoN. J. M. MAClWSSAN said that was for one at £250 and one at £200, as one under the new Parliament they would have all of the clerks had been promoted from a lower the places visited by the judges. That did not class, and would only get £200. concern the Queensland Parliament. He thought Question put and passed. the hon. member for Bundanba was making a mistake. SUPREME COURT (NORTHERN DIVISION). The ATTORNEY GENERAL moved that The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ,aid there had the sum of £3,045 be granted for the Supreme been an additional circuit town added since last Court, Northern Division. It would be observed year. The number of judges did not make any that £900 was asked for the travelling expenses difference in the vote. It did not matter whether of the judges, while the amount voted last year one judge travelled five times, or five judges was £800. The amount spent last year was travelled once each, so far as the travelling ex­ £795 4s. lOd., which left a saving of £415s. 2d. penses were concerned. The expenses last year on the vote. exceeded the amount voted, and it was desirable that the item should be increased. Mr. DONALDSON: We got Sd. out of it the year before. Mr. SAYERS said he was sure that the The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It is wonder­ Attorney-General knew in his heart that the ful how close it goes to the vote. amount set down was an outrageous amount to The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE said he would ask spend in travelling expenses. The judge stated the Attorn@y-General to inform the Committee some time ago that if his cheques were not what was the nature of the arrangements made allowed by the Government he would do certain for supplying the place of Mr. Justice Cooper things-he would discharge all the prisoners-and during his absence. He did not know what he simply bounced the Governmentinto doingw hat arrangement had been made, but from what he wanted. His (Mr. Sayers') opinion was that a little he had heard of it he thought it was by no fixed salary should be given, and out of that the means satisfactory. judges should pay their way. He did not object to a fair amount being voted for travel­ The ATTORNEY- GENERAL said the ling expenses, but the Committee ought to know arrangement ~ade with Mr. Justice Cooper, how the money w.as spent. The judges should who had been granted twelve months' leave of send in vouchers containing the particulars of absence, was that the expense of providing a expenditure, so that it could be seen how the substitute shonld be paid out of his salary. The money was spent. He heard the hon. member for Government had found that arrangement in force, Enoggera interject, "Do not give the North and had not altered it. another grievance;" but he (Mr. Sayers) said that Mr. GLASSEY said it was remarkable how the question of travelling expenses was a grievance close the expenditure fer travelling by the to the whole of the colony. The Government, Northern judges approached the amount of the after refusing money for various works which vote for travelling allowance. Very serious would be for the benefit of the colony on the objection had been taken to that item last year ground that the Treasury could not bear the and the previous year, and he thought there was expenditure, were quite ready to put down an equal objection to it now. There was an another £100 for the travelling expenses of item of £·:100 down for the removal of the judges; and he hoped that the country would Supreme Court from Boweu to Townsville, and take notice of the fact that, no matter what was he would like to know how that amount was the condition of the Treasury, those gentlemen expended. Comparing the number of judges in could get whatever they required. the North with those in the South, and the travelling they had to undertake, £900 for Mr. ANNEAR said he had no doubt that the travelling allowance for the Northern judges grievance complained of was as genuine as any was extravagant. If all accounts were as grievance in theNorth ; at the same time, it was circulated by those who had experience in the unkind to bring in the n9,me of a gentleman who North, there was not the slightest doubt that one, was not at present in the colony. at all events, of the Northern judges did not live as ordinary people lived. They always Mr. SAYERS: I mentioned no names. found when those liberal allow1mces were made that a number of apologies were found when any Mr. ANNEAR said the hon. member had member protested against them. If proper referred to certain circumstances in connec­ economy wa.s exercised, the ,amount for travelling tion with that gentleman. He congratulated expenses might be !educed by one-half, and, the late Government on the appointment without delaying the Committee further, he of Mr. Justice Chubb, who, he felt sure, would bring the question to an issue by moving would faithfully perform his duties and not go that the item for the travelling expenses of the into any reckless expenditure. It would be a Northern judges, when on circuit, be reduced by most undignified proceeding to ask the judges of the sum of £300. the Supreme Court to send in a detailed account of their expenses for hon. members to peruse; The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN said he and he considered that they ought to be very would point out to the hon. member who moved proud of their judges. It was uot often that he the reduction that last year £800 was on the agreed with the hon. member for Bundanba, but Estimates for one judge, and now there were two he took that hon. member's opinion on the present Northern judges. occasion as being worth something, because he The ATTORNEY- GENERAL: They only had lately done a starring tour in the North, and travel one at a time. · no doubt knew what hotel expenses were in that The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN said he part of the colony. A great many things that knew that ; but he thought the hon. member for were afterwards found to be absolutely untrue Bundanba had made a mistake in moving the had been said about the Northern judge who was reduction of the item. now absent from the colony, and he hoped that The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE: They have to go the vote would not be reduced. to Cairns now. Mr. FOXTON said he wished to have some The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN said they information with regard to the appointment of would have to go to several other places in · a locum tenens to Mr. Justice Cooper during his addition to Cairns. absence. What salary was Mr. Acting Judge Mr. POWERS ; Under the new Parliament. Mansfield receiving ? Supply. [11 N OV:ElMBER.] Supply. 1353

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he under­ Mr. DONALDSON said he had no hesitation stood that Mr. Mansfield received the full in expressing his opinion about the judges. salary of the judge. Although he had the highest respect for the Mr. FOXTON said he wished to know judges, he was not one of those who entertained whether that was paid by the Government or by the opinion that they should not give an account Mr. Justice Cooper? of their expenditure. He had travelled himself The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the as a :Minister, and had no hesitation in putting amount received by Mr. Mansfield was the same in vouchers for the expenditure he had incurred; as Mr. Justice Cooper's salary, and it was paid and he thought it would not be asking too much out of Mr. Justice Cooper's salary. to expect the judges to do the same thing. He had heard charges of gross extravagance made Mr. FOXTON said he thought Mr. Mansfield's from time to time against a judge; but if all the salary should appear on the Estimates in some judges furnished vouchers to the Government way. all matters of doubt could ea"ily be set at rest. Mr. DONALDSON: Mr. Justice Cooper's He only wished that some Government would salary is on the EstimatP~. be strong enough to insist upon having those Mr. FOXTON said it might seem a small vouchers in future. matter, but he did not regard it as such, and The :MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: They without wishing to cast any reflection on Mr. go to the Auditor-General. Mansfield or anybody concerned, it seemed to Mr. DON ALDSON said they did not go to him very much like the thin end of the wedge in the Government. He knew that the hon. gentle­ farming out judicial appointments. The Com­ manattheheadof theGovernmententertainedthe mittee ought to know who were to be appointed opinion that the judges should be paid what they as substitutes for judges or other officers on expended. leave. It was not a good practice to adopt to permit any judge or any Government servant of The ATTORNEY- GENERAL: I do not any grade whatever to make an arrangement remember saying that. with a third person to carry out his duties, and Mr. DONALDSON AAid he had been looking to pay that person for the discharge of his duties the matter up, but he had not been able to find whether he paid him in cash or by an order on it in Hansard. The hon. gentleman had, how­ the Tr0.%sury. ever, saicl something to that effect about four The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: The arrange­ years ago. If vouchers were furnished to the ment was made by the Government, not by Mr. Government the Minister in charge of the Justice Cooper. Estimates would be able to inform the Com­ mittee that he had examined them, and that the Mr. FOXTON said he understood that the expenditure was reasonable. During his ex­ money was to be paid by the Government out of perience in the Treasury he had found that it Mr. J-ustice Cooper's salary. was very necessary to have vouchers. He did The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: Not by not say that with regard to the judges ; but he arrangement between Mr. Mansfield and Mr. had known cases in which cheques had been Justice Cooper. passed through which would not have gone Mr. FOXTON said it looked very much like through in the same way if vouchers had been a three-cornered arrangement. furnished. The HoN. J. M. MACROSSAN: Mr. Justice Mr. BARLOW said when he had less experience Cooper made no arrangement with Mr. Mans­ in that C0mmittee he thought something might field. be done to economise on those Estimates. But Mr. FOXTON said he did not know what the he really began now to think that the best way arrangement was. All he knew he gathered would be to allow them to go through in globo. from the information given to the Committee. They never seemed to be able to reduce a vote Mr. SMITH said that when the vote was by one single shilling, however glaring the case under discussion last session there was only one might be. The argument some hon. mem­ judge in the North, and it was freely stated that bers used, that because the sum of £800 he spent largely of the public money on himself. was voted and only £2 Hs. lld. was left they Now, there had been a test as to the accuracy of should vote the same amount again, was to his those assertions, and they found that although mind perfectly absurd. The surprise to him was that particular judge was not n.t present in the that one single penny was left. A very unplea~ant colony, and had been absent for the last six or rumour had been afloat that a sy~tem of sweating eight months, still the vote for the travelling had been going on in connection with the expenses of the Northern Supreme Court judge Northern judge, and he was very glad to hear was pretty well expended, there being only some the Attorney-General say that such wns not the £4 left. In justice to Mr. Justice Cooper, who case. However, he thought £600 was a suf­ was attacked last session, he thought that should ficient sum for the travelling expenses of be clearly stated. the Northern judge. As to the expendi· ture of public money, he thought that every The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: He did all officer of the Government entrusted with the travelling. public money should be prepared to give an Mr. SMITH said he understood that there had account of it, not necessarily for publication, but been one or two circuits courts held in the North as a guarantee of good faith. Hon. members since Mr. Justice Cooper had left the colony. would be quite willing to leave the investigation The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that of those delicate details to the Attorney-General Mr. Justice Cooper had done all the travelling or the head of the department; but the Minister except what was represented by about £100 paid ought to be in a position to tell the Committee for travelling expenses to Mr. Justice Chubb. that he was satisfied that the expenditure was a There was only one judge on circuit at a time. reasonable one. He should certainly vote for He did not know precisely what arrangement was the reduction. made with Mr. Justice Cooper. He did not Mr. McMASTER said it was unfortunate that altogether approve of it; but, at any rate, it was that vote should have to be challenged every year, better than the system which prevailed in one of but he was not surprised that it should be the other colonies where, if a judge wanted leave challenged. The Premier had said that one of absence, he had to find and pay his substitute, judge had done most of the travelling during the and always tried to get him as cheaply as he last twelve months, and he was quite sure that could. Mr. Justice Chubb was a very cautious, saving 1354 Supply. tASSEMf3LY.J Supply. man when in Brisbane, although he might SHERU'F. have altered in the North. .Although Mr. The .ATTORNEY-GENEltAL moved that Justice Cooper wr,s absent from the colony, .£4, 930 be granted for salaries and contingencies he had left n most excellent substitute in his in the Sheriff's Department. associate, who would see that the cheques were kept up to the mark. That gentleman was well Question put and passed. known in Brisbane, and many people in Bris­ NORTHERN SHERIFF. bane, himself included, would rather they had never seen that gentleman. He could get a The .ATTORNEY-Gl

The only expense was the salary of a registrar a!; INTESTACY. £20 a year ; whilst the very first case in which The ATTORNEY-GENERAI.. moved that all the witnesses had to be taken to Toowoom ba £1,180 be granted for intestacy. There was no for the trial, would cost three or four times that alteration in the vote. amount. Question put and passed. The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE said s(Jmething ought to be done with regard to the travelling The House resumed; the CHAIRMAN reported expenses of the Northern district court judge. progress, and obtained leave to sit again to- "While he was in office Croydon was established 1norrow. as a district court, and on ascertaining the ADJOURNJ.VIENT. expenses of the circuit he promised the distr·ict The PREi\HER said: Mr. Speaker,-I beg to court judge that special consideration should be move that this House do now adjourn. shown to him in the matter of his travelling Question put and passed. expenses while there. While Supreme Court The House adjourned at twenty minutes to judges were allowed almost carte blanche for 11 o'clock. tra veiling expenses, district court judges, although travelling in the expensive Northern portion of the colony, were only allowed 30s. a day. He hoped some re-arrangement would be made with regard to the travelling expenses of the Northern district court judge. Mr. PAUL said he wished to point out to the Attorney-General that Springsure was the centre of a district extending in one direction 200 miles to Rockhampton, and in the other 300 miles to Barcaldine, and that if the district court were removed, it would create very great inconvenience indeed. Mr. SAYERS said he noticed there was a reduction of £500 in the allowance to witnesses and jurors. How much was expended last year on that item ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the amount expended last year was £3,97612s., and the amount now asked for was £4,000. The HoN. J. M. MACHOSSAN said he agreed with the hon. member for Charters Towers, Mr. Rutledge, that 30s. a day for the travelling expenses of the district court judge who went to Croydon was too little, and ought to be increased. Mr. GLASSEY said that as, according to the Attorney-General's statement, there were several places where district courts were not required to be held, it would be advisable to reduce the vote, or otherwi'~e, if the amount was left on the Estimates it would be spent. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that what he had said was that the Government had not sufficient knowledge to fully justify them in proposing to omit those places, and he did not think the hon. member had any superior know­ ledge on the subject. Mr. SMITH said he hoped the Attorney­ General would take into consideration the re­ marks of the hon. member for Charters Towers, Mr. Rutledge, and increase the allowance made to the Northern District Court judge for his travelling expenses. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said there was no doubt that in some parts of the North travel­ ling was very expensive. In other parts it was not much greater than in the South. On long sea voyages the expenses were no greater than elsewhere, and taking the very expensive parts with the less expensive parts, there was not so much inequttlity as was supposed. Of course, while on circuit at Normanton, Croydon, and Cloncurry the expenses were he~tvy, but there were long steamer voyages to set ~tgainst that. However, it had always been his opinion that the amount allowed was rather small, and the matter would be taken into consideration. Question I•Ut and passed. INSOLVENCY. The ATTOHNEY-GENERAL moved that £1,506 be granted for insolvency. The amount was the same as that voted last year. Question put and passed.