A P P E A R A N C E S
The Sole Member: His Honour Judge Peter Smithwick
For the Tribunal: Mrs. Mary Laverty, SC Mr. Justin Dillon, SC Mr. Dara Hayes, BL Mr. Fintan Valentine, BL
Instructed by: Jane McKevitt Solicitor
For the Commissioner of An Garda Siochana: Mr. Diarmuid McGuinness, SC Mr. Michael Durack, SC Mr. Gareth Baker, BL
Instructed by: Mary Cummins CSSO
For Owen Corrigan: Mr. Jim O'Callaghan, SC Mr. Darren Lehane, BL
Instructed by: Fintan Lawlor Lawlor Partners Solicitors
For Leo Colton: Mr. Paul Callan, SC Mr. Eamon Coffey, BL
Instructed by: Dermot Lavery Solicitors For Finbarr Hickey: Fionnuala O'Sullivan, BL
Instructed by: James MacGuill & Co.
For the Attorney General: Ms. Nuala Butler, SC Mr. Douglas Clarke, SC
Instructed by: CSSO
For Freddie Scappaticci: Niall Mooney, BL Pauline O'Hare
Instructed by: Michael Flanigan Solicitor
For Kevin Fulton: Mr. Neil Rafferty, QC
Instructed by: John McAtamney Solicitor
For Breen Family: Mr. John McBurney
For Buchanan Family/ Heather Currie: Ernie Waterworth McCartan Turkington Breen Solicitors NOTICE: A WORD INDEX IS PROVIDED AT THE BACK OF THIS TRANSCRIPT. THIS IS A USEFUL INDEXING SYSTEM, WHICH ALLOWS YOU TO QUICKLY SEE THE WORDS USED IN THE TRANSCRIPT, WHERE THEY OCCUR AND HOW OFTEN. EXAMPLE: - DOYLE [2] 30:28 45:17 THE WORD “DOYLE” OCCURS TWICE PAGE 30, LINE 28 PAGE 45, LINE 17 I N D E X
Witness Page No. Line No.
KEVIN FULTON
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. DURACK 1 10
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. O'ROURKE 34 2
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MS. MULVENNA 76 18
EXAMINED BY MR. RAFFERTY 86 28
RE-EXAMINED BY MRS. LAVERTY 107 15 Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 1
1 THE TRIBUNAL RESUMED ON THE 16TH OF DECEMBER, 2011,
2 AS FOLLOWS:
3
4 CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Laverty, the witness is now seated and
5 ready to begin. May I ask if there are any further
6 questions from members of the legal team?
7
8 MR. DURACK: Yes, I hadn't finished yesterday, sir.
9
10 KEVIN FULTON CONTINUED TO BE CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. DURACK
11 AS FOLLOWS:
12
13 1 Q. MR. DURACK: Good morning again.
14 A. Good morning, sir.
15 2 Q. Now, might I ask you about some detail. I think you told
16 us that you initially got involved with Mr. Blair after you
17 were out from prison and you were green-booked in the
18 summer of 1987?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 3 Q. And you told us it was sometime shortly after that, I
21 think, that you were told that Mr. Corrigan was involved in
22 the Narrow Water thing?
23 A. Yes, I would have heard that conversation passed.
24 4 Q. And can you tell us -- you also told us that you told your
25 minders at the time about that?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 5 Q. Are you in a position to write down the names of your
28 minders at that stage?
29 A. Yeah. I have actually done the same minders yesterday as
30 well.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 2
1 6 Q. Oh, did you?
2 A. Yes, sir, yeah.
3 7 Q. Oh, I didn't realise you had.
4 A. They have been done over these past few days. But you do
5 realise, a lot of these minders' names are not the real
6 names.
7 8 Q. It may give the authorities an opportunity to identify who
8 they are. But that was the first occasion that you had
9 passed on information that would have been relevant to
10 Mr. Corrigan, isn't that right?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 9 Q. And I think, then, the next occasion was, in fact, in
13 relation to the time of these murders that we're concerned
14 with, which is the 20th of March, 1989?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 10 Q. Were they still the same minders?
17 A. No, there was different minders, sir. And then there was
18 another time when MI5 came in and I would have repeated my
19 whole history to these people in that debrief, as well, in
20 London.
21 11 Q. When do you think that was?
22 A. The big debrief with different departments was when I came
23 back from Eurodisney, I had contacted Military Intelligence
24 in Lisburn and another -- I was told to call back another
25 day, which I did, and, at this stage, someone from, as he
26 says, "we are from British Intelligence and we are running
27 everything," so they arranged to meet me with Military
28 Intelligence in London.
29 12 Q. You agreed yesterday that that was sometime after the
30 summer of 1991 that you came back from Eurodisney?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 3
1 A. It would have been. The actual date, I don't really know
2 the exact date.
3 13 Q. I appreciate that may be a difficulty. But could I just
4 take you back to '89, which is a couple of years earlier,
5 which is when you had heard the reference to Mr. Corrigan
6 being of assistance in relation to the Breen and Buchanan
7 murders?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 14 Q. You told us that you told your handlers at that stage. Can
10 you identify who they were?
11 A. They were military, sir.
12 15 Q. And do you have names for them?
13 A. Yeah, I have already given the names. If you want, I'll
14 write them down again.
15 16 Q. I'm just not sure whether you have given those -- you think
16 you have given those?
17 A. I think I have, sir, yes.
18 17 Q. Very good. Then the next date, then, is the 28th August of
19 1989, which is the Omeath --
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 18 Q. -- matter?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 19 Q. And you told -- again, you told us that you told your
24 handlers at that stage --
25 A. Yes, sir, absolutely, and on the debrief in London I gave
26 them all the details of everything throughout my own
27 career, again, sir.
28 20 Q. Again, did you have -- were you still with the same minders
29 by August 1989?
30 A. No, sir. There was a break at that stage and then I went
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 4
1 away to your Eurodisney, and then when I came back there
2 was new handlers.
3 21 Q. So you didn't go to Eurodisney until the summer of '91?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 22 Q. I am talking about Omeath back on the 28th of August, 1989,
6 and then subsequently between Omeath and the murder of
7 Oliver, which was while you were away, the Fintan Callan's
8 incident, I am just wondering, could you provide us, if you
9 haven't already done so, with the names of --
10 A. Handlers that I gave the information --
11 23 Q. Can I just finish the question. I just want to get this
12 concisely, if we can. The names of the people whom you
13 told about Omeath on the 28th of August of 1989; the fact
14 that Mr. Corrigan had cleaned up the scene, in Omeath. Who
15 was dealing with you at that stage?
16 A. Who was dealing with me? They were handlers from the
17 military, sir.
18 24 Q. I know, but I just want to identify --
19 A. Do you want me to say their names?
20 25 Q. No, if you just write them down. I want to be in a
21 position to check with these people as to what they will
22 say. At least the Tribunal to be in possession of it. I
23 don't need to know. And between Omeath and the murder of
24 Tom Oliver, there was the incident at Fintan Callan's; can
25 you tell us who you told about that?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 (Witness writes names down)
28 26 Q. Now, when you came back, then, from Eurodisney, you say you
29 were there when Tom Oliver was killed in July of 1991?
30 A. Yeah.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 5
1 27 Q. You say you had a major debrief at that stage?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 28 Q. Now, was there a change in your handlers at that stage?
4 A. Yes, handlers changed all the time. Sometimes you'd have a
5 handler, a few handlers, usually two or three. The way
6 that would work is, they would come and handle you, they'd
7 get to know you, and then, maybe, over a space of, maybe,
8 twelve months, one of those handlers would, maybe, change,
9 and a new person would be brought in, so it was never a
10 case that you were brought in with total new handlers
11 unless there had been a break. So that's the way, they
12 rotated around, and you always got it that you had friendly
13 faces with you at all times.
14 29 Q. Now, your major debrief was when MI5 became involved in the
15 summer of '91?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 30 Q. Are you in a position to write the names of any of those
18 people that you dealt with in London?
19 A. Yes, I am indeed, yes.
20 (Witness writes names down)
21 31 Q. Did you have real names for any of those people?
22 A. Yes, one person in particular, Bob. Bob was a pseudonym --
23 32 Q. Yes. If you can write down what you consider to be their
24 real names. I think you said they were people from MI5?
25 A. Yes, sir.
26 33 Q. They were people from the military?
27 A. Yes.
28 34 Q. And there could have been some people from the RUC?
29
30 CHAIRMAN: Sorry, Mr. Durack, I didn't catch when this --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 6
1
2 MR. DURACK: This relates to the meeting in London he had
3 with MI5, the military and some members the RUC, which he
4 tells us happened after he returned from Eurodisney, which
5 appears to be the summer of 1991.
6 A. Then, there were other individuals were at this meeting who
7 I have no idea who they were. They never identified
8 themselves in any way, but they had Northern Ireland
9 accents.
10 35 Q. If you can just mark your note, if you would, that it is
11 the London meeting. Now, you told us that --
12
13 CHAIRMAN: Just a moment, I just want to make sure that I
14 have got these. I don't quite follow one thing. You have
15 given me two real-named people from the RUC?
16 A. Yes, sir. These were RUC officers.
17
18 CHAIRMAN: You said they were later brought in --
19 A. They were later brought in by --
20
21 CHAIRMAN: Later during the meeting?
22 A. No, later on at a later date. They weren't at London, but
23 they were later brought in by MI5 when we were back in
24 Northern Ireland operating again. Maybe you'll remember
25 that I was handled by army and MI5, not RUC Special Branch,
26 but when things were happening, MI5, they were saying, they
27 had to go, after our meetings, and then brief people within
28 the RUC place, and they were saying would it be possible to
29 bring in -- they knew my views of Special Branch, and they
30 asked would it be possible to bring in two Special Branch
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 7
1 officers, basically, to sit in on the meeting. They would
2 have no control of me and I didn't work for them. And I
3 agreed at that stage that they could come to make things
4 easier, to get things going quicker.
5
6 CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I just want to write down
7 the description.
8 A. And at that debrief, sir, we went through my whole career,
9 everything I had done and all the operations I was involved
10 in, yes, sir.
11
12 36 Q. MR. DURACK: Now, I think you told us yesterday, beginning
13 at, I think, question 849, on Day 67, that you were making
14 bombs in the Republic of Ireland with 'Mooch' Blair, and
15 that you were trying out new types of incendiary devices,
16 new mixes in fertilisers, and things like that.
17 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
18 37 Q. And that you told your handlers of that?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 38 Q. And to give you a relevant date, I think it was -- you've
21 said it was shortly before the murder of Colleen McMurray?
22 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
23 39 Q. And that was in 1992?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 40 Q. So that was the following year. Who would you have given
26 that information to?
27 A. It would have been to the, some of the names that I have
28 just said there now, yes, sir. It would have been the MI5
29 people and the army personnel and there was other people
30 unidentified.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 8
1 41 Q. Now, you told us, also, that you, in fact, brought handlers
2 to various -- to a place in the Cooley mountains?
3 A. No, sir, I didn't bring them to the place in the Cooley
4 mountains. What the army did and the MI5, we had a
5 meeting, there was a bunker built into the mountain, and at
6 this stage it was the IRA's intention to -- basically, it
7 takes a long time to grind explosives -- or fertiliser, so
8 you can grind it and store it but you then have to mix in
9 your different things with it; it can be benzene, sugar,
10 whatever you want to do, or diesel. So what they do is,
11 they have a store of stuff already, maybe grind down the
12 fertiliser, that's the monotonous part, it takes a long
13 time. So they dug this dump to hold, it was a like a store
14 for ground fertiliser and bombs. So what my handlers got
15 me to do, they gave me a Magellan GPS - this was way before
16 ordinary civilians would have it - and they instructed me
17 in the use of this GPS system. So we actually met outside
18 Newry and we went down to, I think it was Victoria Lock on
19 the Omeath Road. They pulled in there. There was RUC
20 officers with us, the two gentlemen that I named that were
21 with the MI5 people at that stage. And they switched over,
22 gave me the device personally and said, "If you are stopped
23 with it up there, just say to the IRA you found it in your
24 garden and you were bringing it down, you don't know what
25 it is." It was a story that may have worked, it may not,
26 but we had to take chance. So what I did, I actually drove
27 down to the site of this bomb -- sorry, it's a store, and
28 the way I was instructed to do it, before this stage I had
29 actually gone down with a video camera mounted in my car,
30 and the way I would do it for them is I would go to a
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 9
1 certain point and I would hit my mileage to zero, I would
2 log it on the camera and then drive, and, as I was driving
3 to the dump, there would be places going up the mountain
4 road where there'd be key points, like a grille thing to
5 stop the cows going over, you know, into the mountain part,
6 and I would say what the mileage is at that spot. The
7 camera would still be rolling. I'd park my car, I'd take
8 the camera out and walk up into the mountain with the video
9 camera and actually videoed the dump, opening the dump, I
10 videoed going into the dump, showed the explosives. There
11 was, at that time, a gas-bottle bomb, they call it, you
12 know like, it would be a gas bottle that they use in a pub
13 to pump the beer out. So what the IRA done is, sometimes
14 they'd use these as a bomb or a booster charge, you know,
15 sometimes, for big bombs. There was one of those with a
16 box timer on it, so I videoed it as well. Came back, gave
17 that to them, and that's, then, at later stage they gave me
18 the GPS to go back and get a map reference of the actual
19 dump. So when I went down and did that, I remember at the
20 meeting they were saying, people in London were delighted
21 with the video footage, the name of this dump, and they
22 passed a comment, they said, "Did you know this dump is
23 just a few metres inside the Irish Republic?" Of course I
24 didn't, because I thought it was well into the mountain.
25 But there is actually a wall on the mountain just beside
26 the dump and it was actually near enough to the border, so
27 you could stand on one part behind the wall and you are in
28 Northern Ireland, go on the next one and you were in the
29 Irish Republic. But the dump was in the Irish Republic,
30 sir.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 10
1 42 Q. Now, so you went there on your own but with the assistance
2 of this equipment?
3 A. With the assistance, yeah, because, I mean, the
4 security-force people they waited just north of the border
5 and I went down with this equipment, yes, sir.
6 43 Q. Now, can you tell us, you gave, you say, back the video and
7 you were in a position to give them the coordinates --
8 A. The machine did the coordinates, yes, sir, accurately.
9 44 Q. Can you tell us who you gave them to?
10 A. I gave that to, at that time -- you see, sir, I was run by
11 MI5, so it went to the person --
12 45 Q. Sorry, are they still the people?
13 A. They are on the list.
14 46 Q. Still the people on that list?
15 A. Yes, sir, there is people on that list, yeah.
16 47 Q. Now, you were saying that you never worked for Special
17 Branch?
18 A. No, sir, I was never working for Special Branch.
19 48 Q. Were there not RUC men involved as part of your handling?
20 I am talking about this stage now --
21 A. Yes, this is the stage where I'm saying my handlers in MI5
22 and army said, we would like to bring Special Branch people
23 in. Now, at this stage, my handlers knew my own personal
24 views of Special Branch, and the thing is, I would just not
25 have worked for Special Branch. My handlers were aware of
26 this and they asked would it be okay, with my agreement, to
27 bring some people from Special Branch in, because when I
28 had meetings with my own handlers, it meant they had to go
29 then and brief people within the RUC Special Branch, and
30 whatever, sir, so, this way, it took an extra meeting out
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 11
1 by taking two people to sit in from another department.
2 49 Q. Well, would this explain why the Chief Constable said that
3 you worked from Special Branch from '92 to '94?
4 A. Would you need to speak --
5 50 Q. You may have been getting paid by the military, but that he
6 was getting information?
7 A. The thing is, I would not have worked -- if my handlers had
8 said to me "you are working for Special Branch," I would
9 not have worked for them, sir. They knew my own personal
10 views of Special Branch. So I was working for the military
11 first, and MI5 took over the supremacy of it. They were
12 classed by -- I mean, even the army people called them, and
13 so did the Special Branch officers, used to call my
14 handlers in MI5 the rich cousins, because MI5 had a budget
15 that no one else had.
16 51 Q. Now, I think from '94 to '96, you were working for Customs
17 and not doing anything with any of the others, is that what
18 I understood you to say?
19 A. Yes, sir, I was working for Customs, and I was actually
20 pinpointing the same people that I was pinpointing with MI5
21 and the army, so there was going to other departments and
22 things were getting done, things that MI5 and other people
23 didn't seem to --
24 52 Q. Who were you dealing with in Customs? Can you give us the
25 name?
26 A. I can give you his name, certainly, yes.
27 (Witness writes name down)
28 There was a few other people actually, their names have
29 slipped me, but the main person is there.
30 53 Q. If you'd identify him as the main one, just mark it --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 12
1 A. Absolutely, sir, that's what I have done.
2 54 Q. Then, after Customs, I think it follows that, in August
3 '97, you started working for Witness 71, who was in the
4 Drug Squad?
5 A. Witness 71, yes, sir, that is correct, and that was because
6 the people in Customs, basically, the main person says that
7 they could not handle the level of information that I was
8 giving them and he advised me to speak to someone in the
9 police, and I said I wouldn't go to Special Branch, and he
10 suggested a person, and people in the Drug Squad, he said
11 they were actually good people and, you know, he trusted
12 them, so I went in, yes.
13 55 Q. And did the military or MI5 come back into the picture at
14 that stage?
15 A. No, sir, not at that stage. We had a major fallout.
16 56 Q. Did they come back into the picture at all after '97?
17 A. Not to me personally, sir, because at one stage they tried
18 to have me killed by another agent, so of course I wouldn't
19 speak to them, no.
20 57 Q. I'll come back to that in a minute.
21 A. Yes, sir, of course you will.
22 58 Q. So essentially, then, it was Witness 71 from that until you
23 moved to the UK?
24 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
25 59 Q. Sorry, you were involved with No. 70, I think?
26 A. 70 came into it as well because of some of the things that
27 was happening.
28 60 Q. But we know who they are?
29 A. Yes, sir.
30 61 Q. So everything that you knew of importance in relation to
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 13
1 the collusion allegation against Mr. Corrigan, was in the
2 hands of your handlers?
3 A. It would have been in the hands of my handlers on a number
4 of occasions, yes, sir.
5 62 Q. We know that when Judge Cory was asked to look into the
6 files, that he was to be provided with all the relevant
7 information as to collusion?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 63 Q. Why did you go to him yourself? Did you have reason to
10 believe that he wasn't being given all the information?
11 A. No, sir, I was contacted by a journalist -- I mean, I was
12 living in England, and what people must understand here is,
13 in England, things that happen in Ireland very rarely get
14 reported, so you would not hear of anything. And it's
15 just, there was a journalist contacted me and said there
16 was a person in a victims' group, "would you talk to them?"
17 So I said yeah, no problem.
18 64 Q. I think you gave us the name of the journalist?
19 A. Yes, sir, I gave you the name of the journalist and the
20 name of the person in the victims' group, yes, sir.
21 65 Q. But had anybody given you any reason to believe that Judge
22 Cory hadn't been given the information that you had given
23 to your handlers?
24 A. At that stage, sir, I didn't know, really, what was going
25 on until I met the person from the victims' group. And
26 it's not a case did I know that he wasn't being given the
27 information? I didn't know what information he had been
28 given or he hadn't been given, because I don't think, at
29 that stage, he had ever said to anyone, "I have been given
30 this" or "I haven't been given this." I don't think anyone
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 14
1 knew what he had given.
2 66 Q. So, at that stage, then, you gave him your statement?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 67 Q. And we can ascertain what he learnt from others or from the
5 authorities?
6 A. Well, I don't know what he learnt from authorities, sir,
7 because I am not in a position --
8 68 Q. We probably don't, either.
9 A. Okay, sir.
10 69 Q. But we'll have a look at that.
11 Now, can I ask you a little about the capacity of the IRA,
12 during the time that you were involved, in terms of
13 equipment and facilities, etc.?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 70 Q. You agreed yesterday, I think, with Mr. O'Callaghan, that
16 the information that you had given to Judge Cory, which was
17 that his client had rung the IRA to tell them that the
18 officers were in the station?
19 A. Well, that's what I assumed, yes, that's it, sir.
20 71 Q. But -- and that would have been between sometime shortly
21 after ten past two to sometime shortly after ten past
22 three?
23 A. Well, I'm not sure on the time because I had nothing to do
24 with the operation and it meant nothing to me.
25 72 Q. Of course. But there or thereabouts?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 73 Q. But, equally, you were told yesterday that the official
28 information appears to be that the activity started at
29 sometime like half eleven in the morning. So even if there
30 was a phone call, it can't have been terribly relevant to
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 15
1 the operation going, isn't that right?
2 A. Well, I mean, you are saying that. I don't know that.
3 But, I mean, if that's what you say, absolutely, if you say
4 that --
5 74 Q. It's information in the possession of the Tribunal at the
6 moment. That's all I can tell you.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 75 Q. But I am wondering, did the IRA have any facility within
9 the Newry telephone exchange or within the telephone
10 exchange north of the border, as far as you are aware?
11 A. Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
12 76 Q. I take it, though, that you did have access to scanners,
13 which could listen to RUC and Garda networks?
14 A. Sometimes. At one stage you would have been able to have
15 them. But at our stages, then, the police actually got new
16 radio systems, and it was basically the same as the army,
17 it would be a coded system like a woodpecker and all you
18 would get is de-de-de-de-de-de, you couldn't actually
19 listen or decode messages. In the old days, sir, you could
20 listen in and -- but, I mean, the police and the army were
21 sometimes very wise to that, as well, and they would just
22 go different codes. And I remember, many, many years
23 before all that, you'd get police saying go by other means
24 and then they wouldn't speak on the radio. They would have
25 some other means, that we didn't know, that they were
26 communicating, yeah.
27 77 Q. But certainly, there would have been unsophisticated ones
28 around in 1989, and they would have got more sophisticated
29 in the following ten years?
30 A. I am sure. I mean, I wasn't very big into communications,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 16
1 sir. We used CB radios.
2 78 Q. And they weren't secure at all?
3 A. Of course not. But we had our own codes as well.
4 79 Q. Just as we were talking about listening, you mentioned
5 yesterday that you, I think at question 939, that you
6 recorded conversations with the police, and I think this
7 was -- this was in '98?
8 A. Did I mention I recorded conversations with the police or
9 someone else recorded -- someone else has given you that on
10 a document, sir?
11 80 Q. Hold on, I'll tell you what you said. I think it's
12 question 939. Sorry, you had been talking about, that at
13 the time when you were working for the CID and you were
14 giving -- you were talking about the man you targeted,
15 which was Mr. Marotta, and he was based in London?
16 A. Yes, he was only one gentleman. There was other people
17 from within the Provisional IRA were working with
18 Mr. Marotta. I targeted those people as well, sir.
19 81 Q. I see. Can you provide the Chairman with the names of
20 those people?
21 A. Absolutely, sir. No problem.
22 (Witness writes down names)
23 82 Q. And in answer to question -- sorry, sir.
24
25 CHAIRMAN: I'll just make a note of these. You have
26 written down a female name?
27 A. Yeah, female.
28
29 CHAIRMAN: As the partner of a named -- a man. You put a
30 question-mark after her name. You don't know her --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 17
1 A. I can't remember her surname. But she was actually
2 arrested and convicted, charged and convicted as well.
3 Yeah.
4
5 83 Q. MR. DURACK: In the course of your answer to question 949,
6 you were going on to talk about this incident, and you
7 said: "No, I just want to make sure, you know, just so the
8 Tribunal know, those conversations were recorded by me with
9 the police, in my presence, and they knew from their own
10 listening devices in some of the people's houses involved,
11 that this was being planned."
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 84 Q. Now, two things, I suppose: In terms of your time as being
14 an agent, what recordings did you make?
15 A. What do you mean, sir, what recordings did I make?
16 85 Q. What recordings did you make? You say these conversations
17 were being recorded?
18 A. Some of these recordings were done in the presence of RUC
19 officers, yes, sir, and that would have been Officer 70 and
20 71 at a public phone box in Hollywood, sir, one call was
21 made to one of these people on the list. And, at a later
22 stage, when the balloon went up and some of these people
23 were arrested for a different operation that I was involved
24 in, one of these gentlemen found a listening device in his
25 house, and it was alleged the police had put it there. He
26 alleged that, sir.
27 86 Q. And you did this taping, as you say, with the agreement of
28 the police. Did you do any other taping of conversations
29 or taping of --
30 A. There was other times I had tapes with police to record
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 18
1 calls and record conversations within that operation, and
2 they were -- the equipment and the tapes were all marked as
3 evidence, and they were done at Knocknagoney, the technical
4 support unit from the RUC.
5 87 Q. And any other time in your career were you involved in
6 taping or recording information that you were in a position
7 to keep rather than give to your authorities?
8 A. For me to keep?
9 88 Q. Mmm?
10 A. Not that I remember. If I recorded anything and kept it,
11 it was for my own personal use or protection.
12 89 Q. That's really what I'm thinking about.
13 A. Oh, you probably should have said that's what you were
14 talking about.
15 90 Q. You said at some stage in the course of something that I
16 read, that, in fact, you had various tapes of conversations
17 with you had given to your solicitor?
18 A. There is tapes of different things that are not relevant to
19 this Inquiry, sir, that I have for my own protection, yes,
20 sir.
21 91 Q. Very good. Now, then, in relation to the listening devices
22 in other people's houses, you said that one was found.
23 That was in the course of this computer operation, was it?
24 A. It was just after the computer operation. Never actually
25 happened, but on a straight run in, it run in constantly
26 with that, was the St. Brendan's, it was a fraud that these
27 same people in -- they had someone who was able to get
28 cheques from St. Brendan's, a liquor company.
29 92 Q. You told us about the cheques.
30 A. They got it from the bottom of the box so it wouldn't be
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 19
1 missing for a long period of time, yes, sir.
2 93 Q. Were you aware of any other places being -- with listening
3 devices in them?
4 A. That wouldn't be my department. I mean, that would have
5 been the police themselves. I mean, that has nothing to do
6 with me.
7 94 Q. But you are not aware of anything else being found by the
8 IRA?
9 A. Not really, not that I am aware of, no, I haven't heard,
10 sir.
11 95 Q. Very good. The -- now, you told us that, if we go back a
12 bit again, back to 1989 and back to the murders we are
13 talking about here.
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 96 Q. You told us that your unit wasn't involved, but that, as
16 time went by, you were inclined to get -- accumulate
17 information as to who might have been involved, the chat
18 about the place?
19 A. Not about the individuals involved, sir, no. You would
20 have heard, maybe, that's what I heard, they were there,
21 they were going to take all the books from them, they were
22 going to take them, interrogate them. You wouldn't have
23 heard -- the south Armagh unit were -- to a great extent,
24 worked on their own. They didn't like working with other
25 people. Occasionally, they did bring other people in when
26 they needed to, but that was really on a need-to-know basis
27 and you were always kept in the cold, sir.
28 97 Q. Well, what did you hear about the operation in terms of how
29 it was executed?
30 A. Well, all I heard was that the IRA had teams on every road,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 20
1 you know, going north, and that they had intended to take
2 the two officers live and take them in and interrogate
3 them, which would be quite a logical thing to do if you had
4 that many men out and it was possible. But I suppose it
5 can be the same as any military operation, where the best
6 laid -- best planned operation turns to rot as soon as the
7 first shot is fired. You know, no one can tell what's
8 going to happen after the first shot goes off.
9 98 Q. So you are not in a position to tell the Tribunal as to who
10 might have been involved or who, or --
11 A. Absolutely not, sir, no.
12 99 Q. -- who might have planned it?
13 A. No, sir, I wouldn't.
14 100 Q. Or do you even know how many were involved?
15 A. No, sir, I wouldn't know how many were involved, but they
16 are saying there is teams on every road. I couldn't put a
17 number on it.
18 101 Q. Was it three or four roads may be relevant?
19 A. Maybe more, sir. There was Forkhill, Edenappa, you would
20 have had in by Ravensdale, the Dublin Road, they could have
21 been down the Omeath Road. You just don't know what road
22 they were going to take. It's quite clear even the IRA
23 didn't know what road they were going to take.
24 102 Q. In terms of the involvement of the Detective Sergeant in
25 this, you thought it was that he had rung up the station,
26 and that's as much as you knew?
27 A. That's as much. Yes, I would not be in a position, I
28 wouldn't be in touch with that man. He wouldn't be in
29 touch with me. I would know nothing, sir, only what I have
30 picked up from my OC.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 21
1 103 Q. But there was no other suggested involvement that you
2 heard?
3 A. Not that I have heard of, no, sir.
4 104 Q. Now, you have talked of your involvement, and you say only
5 as a driver, in relation to the Internal Security Unit?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 105 Q. What was your knowledge of Mr. Scappaticci?
8 A. Just really from the Internal Security Unit, sir.
9 106 Q. And when did you first come to know him -- can you tell us
10 when you first met him and for how long you knew him?
11 A. For a long time, he'd be up and down to Dundalk, when I was
12 there, he would be with 'Mooch' now and again, and then
13 when John Joe Magee -- at one stage, John Joe Magee was
14 living in Belfast, and I was John Joe's driver when he came
15 up to Dundalk. So usually I would hire a van or, if I had
16 the car with me, I would pick John Joe up and I would go to
17 the train station, which was across from the Garda station.
18 I'd pick John Joe up and take him in maybe to 'Mooch's or
19 to Mickey's house.
20 107 Q. And over what period did you know him, is really what I'm
21 trying to --
22 A. Over what period?
23 108 Q. Yeah.
24 A. It would be the eighties and nineties.
25 109 Q. Throughout, virtually, the whole --
26 A. Yeah, he was a man -- he was a sort of person you didn't
27 want to have to have any dealings with, the same as John
28 Joe, because if you knew you had to meet John Joe or
29 'Scap', you knew usually you were in trouble or something
30 was wrong. So they are not the sort of people you want to
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 22
1 have to go to talk to.
2 110 Q. You told us that, ultimately, in fact, that you yourself
3 were looked into by them and that's what caused you to
4 leave?
5 A. Yes, sir. On two occasions -- what you have got to
6 remember is, within a group like the IRA, everyone falls
7 under suspicion at sometime, and everybody could --
8 circumstantial evidence could be classed as a tout or an
9 informer. So everyone is under that suspicion. So, at
10 times, if operations goes wrong, there does be an inquiry,
11 and what would happen is you'd be called to Dundalk. At
12 this stage, John Joe was living there, so he was just
13 across the road from 'Mooch', across a road. So you'd be
14 called into his house with the people that you were on the
15 job with, if the job went wrong and someone was arrested.
16 So they would put you into different rooms and give you,
17 just like here, they'd give you a sheet of paper and a pen
18 and say, write down what your involvement in this operation
19 was, what you done and what happened right up until
20 somebody was either caught, arrested, or whatever. So
21 everybody would write down their little statements and
22 you'd have John Joe looking at it, or 'Scap' would look at
23 it, sometimes 'Mooch' would be there and look at it, and
24 they would go over with each person, saying, and weigh out
25 what the job was, and maybe what the weakness was, or
26 whatever. It was just like an inquiry to see what went
27 wrong, sir.
28 111 Q. And I think you -- I think you told us at some stage, is
29 it, that he ultimately came under suspicion?
30 A. He told me himself that, at one stage, he had been arrested
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 23
1 by the Internal Security Unit, taken away and questioned.
2 It does happen to a lot of people. Usually -- most of
3 them, there is nothing there, they get released, whatever.
4 112 Q. You yourself, in fact, fell under suspicion as well?
5 A. I did, I fell under suspicion a number of times, yes, sir.
6 113 Q. Was he involved in your investigation?
7 A. Who is this, sir?
8 114 Q. Mr. Scappaticci?
9 A. One of them, yes, sir.
10 115 Q. Which one was that?
11 A. That was after Derek Martindale in Belfast. It was well
12 published on the news, and everything else. An IRA team, a
13 complete team was arrested on the job. I mean, the police
14 arrested two groups of them, arrested people, that were
15 holding a family hostage, and gunmen that were trying to
16 kill the officer.
17 116 Q. And I think, ultimately, there is a discussion out there
18 that he, in fact, was an agent as well?
19 A. Which one, sir?
20 117 Q. Mr. Scappaticci?
21 A. Yes, sir, yes, indeed, sir. He was an informant.
22 118 Q. Now, in relation to Mr. Blair --
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 119 Q. -- you were, as you said, involved with him for quite a
25 protracted period?
26 A. Yes, sir.
27 120 Q. And as I understood you yesterday, you said that, coming
28 towards the Omagh bomb time, that you were, in fact, were
29 targeting him?
30 A. After the Omagh -- not targeting. It was just any dealings
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 24
1 I had with him, I'd report back to handlers. I wasn't
2 particularly targeting him, but any dealings I had with him
3 I gave it back to my handlers.
4 121 Q. I thought that was the word you used?
5 A. No, after the Omagh bomb thing, I did actually go out and
6 target him specifically, and we went after him on a number
7 of avenues, but they all seemed to be thwarted by the
8 police; they stopped things.
9 122 Q. Yes, I think you deal with that issue from question 953
10 onwards. But you were targeting him, but they were
11 thwarted. And what did this lead you to believe?
12 A. Well, sir, the way I looked at it myself for many years, I
13 was an agent, informant, tout, whatever you want to call
14 it, so, basically, I was protected by the people I worked
15 for, and, you know, you don't -- when you are in the middle
16 of it, you don't see these patterns - well, you don't see
17 the pattern you leave - but when you do come away from it,
18 you can see, very clearly, the patterns, that they are,
19 actually, sometimes very obvious, especially if you have
20 went through it yourself and, you know, it actually stands
21 out, what you have been doing.
22 123 Q. And can you share with us what you decided in the end?
23 A. What do you mean "decided in the end," sir?
24 124 Q. Sorry, you targeted him, you -- the targeting didn't result
25 in his arrest, and what did you -- what conclusion did you
26 come to as a result of that?
27 A. That he was being protected by some State agency, North and
28 South. Well, the thing is, in the North, I mean -- at this
29 time, 71, my handler, 71, I mean, at this stage we had this
30 -- well, you want him to be a criminal or a terrorist with
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 25
1 the Real IRA, had come up with a million Viagra tablets,
2 that he was willing to take £5 a tablet. That's £5
3 million. So even on a criminal enterprise, that's a pretty
4 big operation even for police to go for, which I think
5 police would be happy with. And, again, 'Mooch' supplied
6 -- I told him I needed a sample, so he gave me this sample.
7 There was a blister-pack of four, but there was two
8 missing --
9 125 Q. You told us about that yesterday.
10 A. I am just explaining to the Judge. I gave it to my
11 handler. He did his checks within the police and he came
12 back and concluded that these, indeed, were genuine Viagra
13 tablets and they were held with Pfizer, they were not in
14 circulation; they were held securely. And at that stage,
15 my handler came back and said he wasn't allowed to talk to
16 me any more, and the operation was scrapped, sir.
17 126 Q. And I think you came to the conclusion then that 'Mooch'
18 was an agent as well?
19 A. Well, I came to the conclusion he walked on water, so, yes,
20 more than likely, an agent. I mean, even a criminal
21 enterprise, never mind anti-terrorist thing, I mean, for
22 not to take a golden opportunity like that where you had a
23 source within close to the people and the control could be
24 done on the people arrested, you know it's strange, to say
25 the least, sir.
26 127 Q. And I think you also knew Mr. Ingram, isn't that right?
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 128 Q. And what did you know of him?
29 A. At the time, I mean, I had never heard of him until a
30 certain editor of a newspaper spoke about him and then
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 26
1 introduced me to him, and then he -- the paper had said he
2 had done stories before with them and he worked for Force
3 Research Unit, which was a secret unit within Army
4 Intelligence.
5 129 Q. Was that the same unit as you worked for?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 130 Q. Sorry, go ahead.
8 A. But I didn't know Mr. Ingram at that time, or anything.
9 131 Q. And when did you get to know him?
10 A. I can't remember the exact date, sir. It was at a meeting
11 in Dublin, you know.
12 132 Q. And where was that; was that a meeting at the Department of
13 Justice or Foreign Affairs?
14 A. No, no, it wasn't. It was always at a hotel, sir.
15 133 Q. I see.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 134 Q. But you can't tell us precisely when?
18 A. I can't remember the exact date, sir, no. I am hopeless on
19 dates.
20 135 Q. And your joint interest was what? Was?
21 A. At this time, the editor of the newspaper in Northern
22 Ireland, I have already given you his name yesterday, he
23 was a Special Branch informant, he arranged to meet, and
24 then we went down and we met with Ingram and we were just
25 talking, the person in the paper was basically saying:
26 Meet him, he'll understand yourself. I think the editor
27 wanted more information himself, really, than the rest of
28 us. But when I met Mr. Ingram, he was basically saying,
29 like, you know: Go through your thing. What were you
30 talking about? Who did you meet? And I mentioned a few
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 27
1 names of people that were baby-sitting me in Berlin and
2 different places, and he knew these people because they
3 were his bosses, so he knew then exactly who I was working
4 with.
5 136 Q. And so he was in a position to check you out?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 137 Q. Am I right in thinking, then, that your mutual interest at
8 that stage was that, you were unhappy that you were not
9 being taken care of by your former employers, and was he
10 equally unhappy?
11 A. He had nothing to be unhappy about. You see, a lot of
12 people get this impression, that Martin Ingram was not
13 happy with his pension. Martin Ingram had no gripe with
14 anybody, sir. Martin Ingram gets his army pension. Martin
15 Ingram, to my knowledge, has helped a lot of people,
16 victims as well, of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland,
17 and other victims' groups. He has helped these groups. He
18 has nothing to gain. And really, he is putting himself in
19 the firing line by doing so, you know...
20 138 Q. And I think he went public, if you like, about 1999, isn't
21 that right, or thereabouts?
22 A. I can't remember the date, sir.
23 139 Q. And have you appeared on various media with him?
24 A. I have appeared in one magazine with the two of us
25 together, I think. I don't know about -- what sort of
26 media? What are you on about, like?
27 140 Q. No, I came across a radio programme of Alex Jones?
28 A. Oh, Alex Jones, that was a radio -- but he was in a
29 different part of the country. It was a telephone
30 conversation, yes, sir.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 28
1 141 Q. I see. Of the 21st of September, 2006. That's to be found
2 on YouTube.
3 A. The Internet.
4 142 Q. It's an American radio programme, isn't that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 143 Q. And I think, there, you talked about -- both you and he
7 talked about various things in your career, and I think
8 both of you were phoning in to the programme, is that
9 right?
10 A. No, the guy phoned us; we didn't phone him. He phoned us.
11 144 Q. What I mean is, all three of you weren't in the room at the
12 same time?
13 A. Oh, absolutely not, no. All three of us were in different
14 parts of England, and he was in America.
15 145 Q. And that programme is available to hear on the Internet.
16 A. If you say so, sir.
17 146 Q. You told us yesterday, or maybe it was the day before,
18 sorry, to go back on it, that you were -- you were unhappy
19 that you had not been properly taken care of?
20 A. Well, sir, it's like you working as a lawyer for so many
21 years for a big company and them saying to you, at the very
22 end, "give us your key, close the door," and they turn off
23 the phone lines. Your whole life's work. It's not a case
24 of 15, 20 years; it was a case of, it was a very dangerous
25 job I was doing. I was given guarantees, like everyone
26 else is before they go into it, and I thought those things
27 were there for me. I had no reason not to believe it. And
28 if I didn't believe it, I wouldn't have done the job. It's
29 like you working your lifetime and not getting your
30 pension. Would you instruct a lawyer or would you just let
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 29
1 it go, sir?
2 147 Q. In fact, I think you did come to Dublin to talk to some
3 civil servants?
4 A. Yes, sir, I did at one time, yes, sir.
5 148 Q. And I think that was on the 18th of April, 2002?
6 A. I couldn't remember the date, sir.
7 149 Q. And I think you were looking for assistance from the
8 Government in pursuing your claim against the British
9 authorities, isn't that right?
10 A. We spoke about a number of things, sir. I can't remember
11 exactly what we did speak about.
12 150 Q. You didn't, at that stage, say anything about Mr. Corrigan
13 or collusion, did you?
14 A. Sir, there is a lot of things I haven't even spoke about to
15 this day.
16 151 Q. No, it might have been an opportunity --
17 A. But, I mean, to you -- you think this is a great
18 opportunity, this is a very important thing. To me, sir, I
19 am sorry, but I don't see it in the same light as you
20 people would see it. I am dealing with people who were
21 doing terrible things on a daily basis or a weekly basis,
22 so, you know, something like that is, forgive me saying,
23 way down the scale, you know.
24 152 Q. Did you provide information to the Sunday Independent about
25 a milk scam sometime back in 2004?
26 A. The Sunday Independent, I might have spoke to a journalist
27 who printed it in the Sunday Independent. I would have
28 been -- it wouldn't have been me speaking to the Sunday
29 Independent. I would have been speaking to a journalist,
30 yes, sir.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 30
1 153 Q. And I think that was an allegation that Mr. Jim Higgins and
2 Mr. Ivan Yates had been involved in a multi-million euro
3 milk scam, isn't that right?
4 A. I am just going to write down the names for the Chairman.
5 154 Q. Please do.
6 (Witness writes down names)
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 155 Q. But you did provide them with some information on such a
9 story, isn't that right?
10 A. Yes, sir, but I actually provided the information to
11 Customs and Excise, and I am just going to fill you in on
12 the story because there is a lot of gaps that people aren't
13 aware of.
14 156 Q. Do.
15 A. At that time, sir, there was a person who was in -- from
16 Newry, and I have supplied the Chairman with the person's
17 name; he was a registered Special Branch informant. At
18 this stage, this Special Branch informant was dealing with
19 people within Customs down here in the Irish Republic, and
20 allegedly had great contacts within An Garda Siochana. The
21 thing is, this person was involved with IRA people as well,
22 and what they were doing was a VAT scam, now VAT or -- some
23 sort of grant with the EU. And what they do is, they had a
24 thing called - well, Customs called it a carousel, where
25 you'd maybe buy two or three containers of milk powder and
26 you would ship them out to one of these countries and you
27 would get some sort of duty back on each container. This
28 thing is, during one of the meetings with this man - the
29 Chairman has his name, I am sure he'll supply it to you,
30 the registered informant - he came up in the conversation,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 31
1 saying that he had met with two people, Higgins and Yates.
2 I am not into politics, I don't know what their job -- one
3 was a Minister of Finance and one of Agriculture, or
4 something like that. So I passed that information on. He
5 was going to dinner with these people and they were helping
6 him set this thing up. Now, Customs and Excise arranged
7 for me to fly with a gentleman, name who I already have
8 with -- one of my Customs handlers is on it -- and we flew
9 to London. When I told them about the stuff they had done
10 on an initial investigation and seen that this thing was
11 actually happening, okay? So we flew to Heathrow Airport
12 in Dublin, me and this Customs gentleman, and we met two
13 other Customs people from Brussels. Now, at that time,
14 they did their investigation, as well, from the Brussels
15 end; they were very worried because they must have had
16 something on it. But what actually happened was that,
17 within about 48 hours of me doing that there, this person,
18 the registered informant from Newry, came back to me and
19 says, "Did you say that to anyone?" I says, "Absolutely
20 not." He says, "No, because the Customs is looking at it."
21 Now, here is the interesting thing, is, I had went and got
22 him his, you know - what do you call it? - bill-heads and
23 letter-heads for the company of a printer in Newry, so I
24 did, and I gave it to him, but, I mean, I told Customs what
25 I had done and I gave them the information. Sir, I gave
26 you the trading company as well. And the thing is, I was
27 able to be told then by Customs that, already, the Customs
28 and the Guards in the South were already watching it, sir.
29 But what actually happened is, they were watching the
30 containers. They were actually siting in a warehouse in
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 32
1 Amsterdam. And I think other Government agencies from down
2 here in the Republic were also watching it for, maybe,
3 firearms as well, they thought there may have been drugs or
4 firearms coming back within the milk powder. And that
5 would be the involvement of Mr. Higgins and Yates were,
6 they were meeting with this guy from Newry. I have already
7 given you his name, sir.
8 157 Q. And they appear to have sued the Sunday Independent. And
9 subsequently, on the 6th of November, 2008, their libel
10 action was settled.
11 A. Well, lucky them, sir.
12 158 Q. It appears that the Sunday Independent couldn't stand over
13 it?
14 A. I don't know, I don't know -- the Sunday Independent didn't
15 contact me, sir.
16 159 Q. I see. Now, I suppose you are aware that, after 1985,
17 there was to be increased cooperation between the
18 Intelligence and Garda forces, North and South, and into
19 the -- into Britain, and that, basically, that information
20 that was relevant to any particular party, would be shared
21 with that party?
22 A. Right, sir.
23 160 Q. And you have told us that you put various items of
24 intelligence into the mix, if you like, in to your handlers
25 in relation to matters that would have been of concern to
26 the Gardaí in the South, and, in the ordinary course of
27 events, one would have expected that that would have been
28 shared with the Gardaí in the South, and that, therefore,
29 things like your allegations in relation to the Detective
30 Sergeant would have been shared with the South?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 33
1 A. Well, I wouldn't know. I wouldn't be in a position to know
2 that.
3 161 Q. There doesn't appear to be any record of that?
4 A. Well, you need to go back to handlers, sir, and find out
5 why it's not. Maybe you're not aware -- well, there are a
6 number of my records concerning myself and my handlers have
7 disappeared or been destroyed. Maybe you are not aware of
8 that, either, sir.
9 162 Q. No.
10 A. Well, you should look that up, sir. I think the Ombudsman
11 covered that in part of the Omagh bomb investigation,
12 that -- what was it? Some files concerning myself and
13 operations that I was involved with with my handlers, had
14 been destroyed, and I think -- I remember a phrase on it
15 saying something -- sometimes this was systematically done
16 with operations that I was involved in. This was what the
17 Ombudsman found, sir. This isn't me saying this. Yes,
18 sir.
19 163 Q. So that there are two options: One, you either didn't give
20 the information to your handlers and, therefore, they
21 couldn't pass it on; or you did give it to them and they
22 didn't pass it on?
23 A. Well, you'd have to take that up with them. I mean, I am
24 not in control. Once I give them the information, what
25 they do with that is entirely up to them.
26 164 Q. I appreciate that, but that would appear to be the options?
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 MR. DURACK: Thank you very much indeed.
29
30 CHAIRMAN: Any other questions of the witness?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 34
1
2 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. O'ROURKE AS FOLLOWS:
3
4 165 Q. MR. O'ROURKE: Mr. Keeley.
5 A. Good morning, sir.
6 166 Q. My name is Martin O'Rourke, and I represent
7 Mr. Scappaticci.
8 A. Good morning, sir.
9 167 Q. I want to ask you some questions about your evidence
10 generally and what you say about him specifically, do you
11 understand?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 168 Q. Can I, first of all, ask you, Mr. Keeley, have you ever had
14 any psychiatric treatment?
15 A. No, sir, I haven't.
16 169 Q. Have you ever been seen by a psychologist?
17 A. No, sir, I haven't.
18 170 Q. Do you drink?
19 A. No, sir.
20 171 Q. Have you ever drunk?
21 A. Maybe one pint or two pints in an evening maybe once a
22 month, sir. Very moderate.
23 172 Q. Well, tell me, do you deliberately overstate your own
24 importance or do you see yourself as being a very important
25 figure?
26 A. No, sir, I never overstate my importance. I'd actually --
27 I mean, I am not as important as anyone else or I am as
28 important as anyone else. I don't overstate it. Maybe
29 your client is, maybe, understating his importance.
30 173 Q. Well, do you see yourself as a hero?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 35
1 A. Absolutely not, sir.
2 174 Q. All right. But you would see yourself as unsung, would
3 you?
4 A. No, sir, I wouldn't see myself as unsung.
5 175 Q. Well, do you think you have been given the credit you think
6 you deserve?
7 A. Sir, I am not looking for any credit. I mean, I have been
8 on the record as saying I have done some very terrible
9 things, been involved with them, as well as saved a lot of
10 people's lives, sir, yes.
11 176 Q. Well, do you see yourself as a bit of a celebrity?
12 A. Absolutely not, sir, no.
13 177 Q. But you are keen to maintain the public interest in you,
14 aren't you?
15 A. No, sir, I am not.
16 178 Q. You are not?
17 A. No, sir.
18 179 Q. So you, when you left Northern Ireland and went to England,
19 did you try to recede into the background?
20 A. I actually have receded into the background, sir.
21 180 Q. Was that your objective of going to England, to try and
22 disappear and become anonymous?
23 A. No, sir, I was living on the streets; therefore, I needed
24 to take my legal challenge to the courts, and, in the
25 process of doing that, newspapers became involved, yeah.
26 The same as your own client at the moment, he quoted the
27 press as well, "I am not an informant, I am not 'Steak
28 Knife'". Well, in actual fact, sir, he is an informant -
29 well, well was an informant, and he is 'Steak Knife'.
30 181 Q. You are familiar with the fact that, in or about May 2003,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 36
1 the Scappaticci/'Steak Knife' story hit world press, is
2 that right?
3 A. I wouldn't know the date, but I do know it hit world press,
4 yes, sir.
5 182 Q. It was a fairly widespread story at the time?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 183 Q. And you know, don't you, that when the name Scappaticci is
8 introduced in the context, for example, of this Inquiry, it
9 tends to make headlines?
10 A. You are trying to think we are going to bring your client
11 in to make this a headline inquiry? Sir, I don't think
12 this Inquiry needs any headlines; it's doing its own job.
13 184 Q. Just answer the question, if you would, please?
14 A. Right.
15 185 Q. Don't you know that when the name Scappaticci is
16 introduced, it tends to get the headlines?
17 A. Well, it's like any name gets the headlines in an inquiry
18 like this here, sir.
19 186 Q. Is the answer yes or is the answer no, to my question?
20 A. I wouldn't agree just the name Scappaticci gets a headline.
21 I mean, 'Mooch' Blair is equally as bad as Scappaticci.
22 187 Q. So may I take it that you do accept that, when Scappaticci
23 is introduced, it tends to get headlines?
24 A. Sir, no one is introducing Scappaticci to get a headline.
25 It's just that Scappaticci was involved in a certain
26 incident that involves this Tribunal, so, you know --
27 188 Q. That's not my question, whether you did or did not
28 introduce it for headline purposes.
29 A. What are you trying to suggest, sir?
30 189 Q. No, but do you accept that it tends to get headlines?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 37
1 A. It depends if the press pick it up, sir.
2 190 Q. All right. When you were trying to be anonymous other than
3 to get your just -- the rights, as you saw it, from your
4 employers, tell me about your art exhibition in London in
5 2003?
6 A. Explosive art.
7 191 Q. Right. Tell me, did you have an art exhibition?
8 A. In the end, I didn't do, because I just decided that it
9 would not be right to do it, sir.
10 192 Q. Well, did you not have an art exhibition in London?
11 A. Me?
12 193 Q. Yes.
13 A. No, sir, I didn't.
14 194 Q. Well, did you try to set up an art exhibition?
15 A. What do you mean, did I "try to set up"?
16 195 Q. Tell us.
17 A. I had actually been invited by a gallery to submit a piece
18 of art, yes, sir.
19 196 Q. Yes...
20 A. Yes.
21 197 Q. What gallery was that?
22 A. I can't remember, but I can get the details of a dealer
23 from an art gallery that wanted me to submit it.
24 198 Q. And did you not submit?
25 A. No, sir, in the end I didn't submit it.
26 199 Q. Why was that?
27 A. Because I just didn't, sir.
28 200 Q. But I'm asking you why you didn't?
29 A. Because I decided not to, that's why it was not submitted.
30 201 Q. Did you not have an exhibition in the Luke & A Gallery at 4
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 38
1 Pollen Street, Mayfair, in November of 2003?
2 A. No, sir, I didn't have an exhibition there.
3 202 Q. All right --
4 A. I think your information is, maybe, wrong.
5 203 Q. So the media publication of that --
6 A. It must be incorrect.
7 204 Q. Must be incorrect?
8 A. It must be. I haven't seen that, sir.
9 205 Q. All right. And it was -- what was it, explosive art?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 206 Q. And what were you painting, or were you sculpting or --
12 A. It was photography as well as electronics, sir.
13 207 Q. What type of electronics?
14 A. Electronics, sir, it was just electronics.
15 208 Q. Were you making radios or --
16 A. No, sir, I wasn't making radios.
17 209 Q. What were you doing?
18 A. I was making little lights flash, sir.
19 210 Q. Little lights flash?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 211 Q. What was explosive about that?
22 A. It's just a term, 'explosive art', sir. There is other
23 people do explosive art where they explode paint onto a
24 canvass, and that's what you call explosive art as well,
25 sir.
26 212 Q. So it was just little lights?
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 213 Q. Flashing?
29 A. Mmm.
30 214 Q. And what was artistic about that?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 39
1 A. Well, sir, art is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?
2 Like, some things what I would class as art you might say
3 is rubbish, and some things you might think as art I would
4 say I wouldn't even give it room in the coal shed wall.
5 215 Q. What did you think was artistic about it?
6 A. To me, it was just my little piece of artistic art, sir.
7 216 Q. Well --
8 A. Again, what you might think is something totally different,
9 but that was my view and it was some other people's views
10 as well.
11 217 Q. And why do you think the Luke & A Gallery were interested
12 in your work?
13 A. There was a person had approached me.
14 218 Q. Yes, but why do you think they had approached you? Did
15 they hear about you from other galleries?
16 A. I have idea. You'd have to ask them.
17 219 Q. Why do you think?
18 A. I have no idea. I didn't think.
19 220 Q. Is it because you were the notorious double agent, Kevin
20 Fulton, or do you think it was because of the intrinsic
21 quality of your art?
22 A. I would like to think it was my art, sir.
23 221 Q. Right. You don't think it was because you were the
24 notorious --
25 A. What do you mean "notorious"? Explain to me "notorious"?
26 This is a great word.
27 222 Q. Because you like notoriety, don't you?
28 A. No, sir, I don't want to be in the press at all. I just
29 want to disappear like everybody else.
30 223 Q. So you like to disappear?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 40
1 A. I would like to disappear, yes, sir.
2 224 Q. All right. We'll come back to that.
3 A. I am sure there is some people could arrange it.
4 225 Q. So the little flashing lights?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 226 Q. Were you not, in fact, submitting photographs of coffee-jar
7 bombs and electronic bombs, was that not --
8 A. No, I did not submit that at all, sir. As I say, I didn't
9 submit anything.
10 227 Q. Is that not what your explosive art exhibition was about?
11 A. No, sir, not all of it, no. I was actually doing a thing
12 with little flashing lights on a canvass.
13 228 Q. Little flashing lights?
14 A. Yes.
15 229 Q. So, tell me, I am just going to hold up a photograph. Do
16 you recognise that photograph?
17 A. Yes, I do indeed, yeah.
18 230 Q. Is that --
19 A. That is explosive art as well, yes.
20 231 Q. Is that your art?
21 A. Absolutely, that was some of the pieces I had done, yeah.
22 232 Q. And the pipe bomb, is that your art?
23 A. It's not a pipe bomb. That's actually a doodlebug, sir.
24 233 Q. Is that part of your art?
25 A. That is art, yes, sir.
26 234 Q. Is that part of your explosive art?
27 A. It was something I was thinking of doing in explosive art,
28 yeah.
29 235 Q. And the Nescafe jar with the wires beside it, that's --
30 A. Yeah. Sure some of the exhibitions that they have over
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 41
1 here where people have guns tied in knots and all,
2 absolutely, sir.
3 236 Q. But that's your explosive art. So why did you not just
4 tell us about that?
5 A. Because I never submitted it, sir. You were saying I was
6 going to submit to the Luke & A Gallery, but I did not
7 submit it. You took that off a website, sir, yeah.
8 237 Q. Am I going to be liable for a fee for that?
9 A. No, but the thing is, you did actually download a stolen
10 photograph and --
11 238 Q. I'm going to come to that.
12 A. I am just going to tell you that you did download a stolen
13 photograph. You tried to submit it here. You did
14 distribute it, and, yes, I will be taking legal action
15 against you.
16 239 Q. I'm going to come to that in a moment, but if I could stick
17 to the art.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 240 Q. Why didn't you, when I was asking you about your explosive
20 art and you said it was just two little flashing lights on
21 canvass --
22 A. Yeah.
23 241 Q. -- why didn't you tell us that it was explosive devices?
24 A. Those weren't explosive devices, there is nothing explosive
25 in any of those.
26 242 Q. Why did you not tell us about them?
27 A. The thing is, the art piece that I was going to submit was
28 the flashing lights on canvass, not those items.
29 243 Q. Have you got something to hide, Mr. Keeley, about these
30 matters?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 42
1 A. About what matters, sir?
2 244 Q. About telling us that you were photographing coffee-jar
3 bombs?
4 A. Those aren't coffee-jar bombs. If those were coffee-jar
5 bombs, sir, I would have been arrested. I mean, the
6 Metropolitan Police knew about these things I was doing and
7 were quite happy with them. I think you are trying to take
8 us down a road, sir, that's absolute nonsense, but go
9 ahead.
10 245 Q. Tell me, did you set up a website exhibiting your art?
11 A. Absolutely, sir, yeah.
12 246 Q. You did. So you didn't submit to the gallery, but you set
13 up a website exhibiting your art?
14 A. The same as your own solicitor's practice, you have your
15 own website submitting the things that you do for your
16 practice. And like all artists or anybody else, they all
17 put up their own websites.
18 247 Q. Let's see. The Sunday Mirror on March 13, 2005, referred
19 to your explosive art website. It was called
20 www.explosive-art.com, is that right?
21 A. If you say it. I can't remember it. It's not live now at
22 the moment.
23 248 Q. I appreciate that. But do you agree, first of all, that
24 that was -- was that in 2005?
25 A. The date I can't remember, but I do remember the site,
26 yeah.
27 249 Q. Was it, do you agree, at a time that you were trying to
28 recede into the background and disappear?
29 A. Well, a person has to make a living, sir. You can't go
30 down a hole or live in a cave, can I, for the rest of my
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 43
1 life?
2 250 Q. Can I take it from your answer that you agree that, yes, it
3 was during this period of time that you were trying to
4 recede and disappear?
5 A. Well, the receding and disappearing, sir, does that mean I
6 am not allowed move on with my life and make things?
7 251 Q. Do you agree that it was at that time that you set up this
8 website and put it on the Internet?
9 A. It's on the Internet, yeah.
10 252 Q. But do you agree it was at that time? Have you a
11 difficulty with that question?
12 A. At what time? Explain at what time? That I was trying to
13 recede?
14 253 Q. At the same time that you were living in England and trying
15 to be anonymous?
16 A. Well, the thing is, I was anonymous because people didn't
17 know who I was, where I was living.
18 254 Q. And tell me, did you supply the information to the Sunday
19 Mirror or did they just take it from your website?
20 A. I mean, if you could read the article. I can't remember.
21 255 Q. It's "Former army spy has launched an Internet website
22 promoting art work based on his years as an undercover
23 agent in Northern Ireland." Then it gives the name of the
24 website. "Is the brainchild of Kevin Fulton of the
25 top-secret Force Research Unit. His website shows how
26 household items such as coffee jars, nails and a glue gun
27 can be adapted and used to build bombs. Fulton says he
28 hoped his work would give the public an insight into the
29 world of the terrorist." And then: "'For the first time,
30 the public can actually see what a terrorist device might
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 44
1 look like,' he says."
2 Now, did you say that to the Sunday Mirror?
3 A. I can't remember, but I may have said it, but it's quite
4 clear it would give the public an insight into what
5 terrorist devices looked like, yes, sir.
6 256 Q. So, you see, what I am suggesting to you, Mr. Keeley, is
7 that, contrary to your suggestion that you were trying to
8 recede into the background, you were putting yourself about
9 and trying to promote and publicise yourself, is that right
10 or wrong?
11 A. Where is this actually leading to, sir?
12 257 Q. Don't you worry about that.
13 A. I am actually not worried about it, sir.
14 258 Q. But am I right about it, that you were trying to promote
15 yourself?
16 A. It was there for my art work. I mean, you promote yourself
17 as a solicitor or do your little bits of whatever, you
18 know. I was putting my art on the line and showing people
19 it. I don't see a big problem in that. Or maybe you have
20 a problem with that.
21 259 Q. Do you have a problem with accepting my suggestion that you
22 were trying to promote yourself?
23 A. Not really. I wasn't promoting myself, sir, no.
24 260 Q. Tell me about the film 'Infiltrator'.
25 A. What about it, sir?
26 261 Q. What do you know about it?
27 A. Well, all I know is that Warner Brothers were going to do a
28 film on an article that a journalist had writ [sic] a
29 story, and the same journalist had been to Michael
30 Flanagan's offices and had coffee with Michael Flanagan.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 45
1 262 Q. Is the story about you?
2 A. It's about me and other people.
3 263 Q. Did you take exception to someone making a film about you?
4 A. About my life?
5 264 Q. Yes.
6 A. Absolutely, because I had no control over what people were
7 going to say about me.
8 265 Q. What did you do about that?
9 A. What do you mean what did I do about it?
10 266 Q. Well, you heard they were going to make a film, didn't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 267 Q. You objected to that?
13 A. I did, yes, I told them that if they did anything or wrote
14 anything about me or made a film about me that was wrong, I
15 would take legal action.
16 268 Q. What was the nature of your legal action?
17 A. I can't remember. I didn't take legal action. Nothing
18 happened.
19 269 Q. Did you not get compensation in the end?
20 A. Off them?
21 270 Q. Yes.
22 A. No. Why, did you hear I did?
23 271 Q. Did you seek -- were you claiming that it was a breach of
24 copyright?
25 A. You are saying now did I not get compensation? Of course I
26 never got compensation. But if you heard I did, please let
27 me know so I can go and find it.
28 272 Q. Were you claiming it was a breach of your copyright?
29 A. It would be my life story. I mean, people were going to
30 write about my life in a different way that I had no
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 46
1 control of.
2 273 Q. Were you told that was a breach of your copyright?
3 A. Well, to me, it was my copyright. My life story, it would
4 have been.
5 274 Q. Yes. So what were you claiming they were doing wrong?
6 A. I told them if they went to go ahead and do it, I would
7 seek legal advice and take action on it.
8 275 Q. For what?
9 A. Nothing happened, sir, so I didn't get doing anything, did
10 I?
11 276 Q. Well, was it for a breach of copyright?
12 A. Tell me what it says then.
13 277 Q. I am just asking you.
14 A. I can't remember, sir, it's so long ago.
15 278 Q. You can't remember?
16 A. No.
17 279 Q. All right. So you were writing to Leonardo DiCaprio?
18 A. I did not write to Leonardo DiCaprio.
19 280 Q. Was it not his company? Was he not going to play some role
20 in this film?
21 A. I don't think it's his company, no.
22 281 Q. Well, is he not involved in the film?
23 A. Allegedly, he was to be. I don't know.
24 282 Q. And you can't remember what you were writing to -- how
25 often do you write to Warner Brothers?
26 A. I think I wrote one or two e-mails, that was it, all those
27 years ago.
28 283 Q. And you can't remember what you were claiming or what you
29 were saying to them?
30 A. No, not offhand, sir.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 47
1 284 Q. Well, can I suggest that what you were writing to them was
2 that you were claiming your life story was, somehow, your
3 preserve and your copyright?
4 A. Right.
5 285 Q. That you wanted to preserve this because it was yours, is
6 that right?
7 A. I can't remember offhand --
8 286 Q. Is it --
9 A. One would like to be able to keep control of one's own
10 life, what's written about one. I mean, some newspaper
11 articles are absolute nonsense. You know, you don't have
12 editorial control of anything that somebody else writes.
13 287 Q. But it wasn't because you were afraid of being libelled; it
14 was because you wanted to preserve your story, which you
15 saw was yours, to be used by you perhaps at a later stage?
16 A. You seem to know more about it than I do.
17 288 Q. Wouldn't you like to cash-in on your story?
18 A. No, sir, I am not really interested in cashing-in on my
19 story.
20 289 Q. Yes, you are --
21 A. There you go, you are a solicitor, you know anyhow
22 yourself.
23 290 Q. Would you like to cash-in on your story?
24 A. Not at this time.
25 291 Q. Not at this time?
26 A. Not even at another time. I'd just like to go away and
27 melt away.
28 292 Q. What did you mean, "not at this time"?
29 A. Because I have no interest in it, that's why.
30 293 Q. What did you mean by "not at this time"?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 48
1 A. I'm just saying not at this time. Maybe in twenty years'
2 time I'll maybe change my mind, sir.
3 294 Q. So you wanted to preserve it, right. Now, you then
4 published a book in 2006?
5 A. A book was published, yes.
6 295 Q. Well, is it not your book?
7 A. It's a book about my story, yes, sir.
8 296 Q. All right. And was that, do you say, published at a time
9 when you were trying to be anonymous?
10 A. It was published. But I was still being anonymous, sir,
11 nobody still knows where I am or who I am, where I live, so
12 that's the beauty about living in cities.
13 297 Q. Do you agree with me, Mr. Keeley, that you are driven by
14 money?
15 A. Do you work for nothing, sir?
16 298 Q. Do you agree --
17 A. I am not driven by money, but, you know, I am here at this
18 Tribunal and I am not getting paid. Are you?
19 299 Q. Do you agree that when you were working for CID, that you
20 got very substantial sums?
21 A. I did, yes, but, then again, I worked. I wasn't doing a
22 nine-to-five job. That was my job.
23 300 Q. Do you agree that you are pursuing a financial package, at
24 the moment, through your legal team?
25 A. I am suing my pension that was actually promised to me,
26 yes, sir.
27 301 Q. And isn't it right that when your photograph was shown in
28 this Tribunal, that you wrote to Mr. Flanagan --
29 A. Yes, sir.
30 302 Q. -- claiming a breach of copyright for using your
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 49
1 photograph?
2 A. It was a stolen photograph of me that was used by a
3 newspaper and I counted as to do me harm because I never
4 allow a photograph of my face. This was a photograph -- I
5 had already complained to the police, many years ago, about
6 it being stolen and used in the North Belfast News. The
7 police had an active investigation into the theft of that
8 photograph. It is my copyright. And like any other agency
9 or any other person that owns copy of an item, you have
10 your own price for it. My price for that, yes, for the
11 unauthorised use of it, is £5,000.
12 303 Q. Is it because you thought it might do you harm or because
13 you thought it was an infringement of your copyright?
14 A. It is an infringement of my copyright.
15 304 Q. Which is it?
16 A. My motivation is to stop people from using it. I have
17 already been in touch with people to get it taken off
18 sites. But some of them have taken it off. Other people
19 have used it even though they know it is a stolen
20 photograph, doing a full picture of my face, and, to me,
21 that is only there to cause me harm or death, by people who
22 would like to do me those things.
23 305 Q. Well, did you -- when you wrote to Mr. Flanagan, did you
24 say that?
25 A. You have the letter. You read it out.
26 306 Q. No, but did you say that you were concerned that this might
27 harm you?
28 A. I have already been on the record with newspaper articles
29 and to the police, that people have done this to cause me
30 harm.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 50
1 307 Q. No, but did you tell Mr. Flanagan, when you wrote --
2 A. I don't remember exactly what I have written on the letter,
3 sir.
4 308 Q. It wasn't that long ago, Mr. Keeley?
5 A. I know it wasn't that long ago but I have a lot of things
6 on my mind just lately, sir.
7 309 Q. You wrote on the 28th July; you e-mailed him?
8 A. Yeah.
9 310 Q. And what you said is: "I am the copyright owner of this
10 photograph".
11 A. Which I am, sir.
12 311 Q. And you said that he had illegally downloaded it?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 312 Q. And that you charge a fee for any copyright infringement of
15 your property?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 313 Q. And that there was a fee of £5,000?
18 A. That is correct, sir.
19 314 Q. So, did you mention that you were concerned that use of it
20 in the confines of the Tribunal --
21 A. I was just giving him the bare-bones of it, sir, to let him
22 know that they did infringe on the copyright. He knew
23 exactly what he had done was wrong. A solicitor
24 downloading a stolen photograph? Now, if you ask me, maybe
25 an ordinary person in the public doing it might get away
26 with saying "I didn't realise I was breaking the law" but
27 quite clearly I don't think a solicitor would have any
28 forgiveness whatsoever, sir.
29 315 Q. The only concern you expressed in your e-mail was
30 financial, isn't that right?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 51
1 A. In that there, it is financial, yes. I mean it would stop
2 you downloading it a second time. I believe even, sir, [to
3 the Chairman] you instructed the Tribunal not to use the
4 photograph when it was presented here that morning.
5 316 Q. You agree, don't you, that you are a person who is willing
6 to lie when there is money in it for you, don't you?
7 A. No, sir, I don't agree with that whatsoever.
8 317 Q. Well, you do accept the Ombudsman's report that you gave
9 false --
10 A. I haven't read it, but tell me anyhow.
11 318 Q. What do you mean you haven't read it?
12 A. I haven't read the Ombudsman's report.
13 319 Q. You have quoted it several times today already.
14 A. That's only one or two sections of it that were only
15 relevant. But go ahead and tell me what you were going to
16 say, go on.
17 320 Q. Have you read it?
18 A. I haven't read it all.
19 321 Q. How are you able to quote it?
20 A. I said I haven't read it all. But go ahead...
21 322 Q. You said a moment ago that you hadn't read it?
22 A. Well I haven't read it all.
23 323 Q. All right. So how did you decide what bits to read and
24 what bits not to read?
25 A. Go ahead, sir...
26 324 Q. I want to know how did you --
27 A. I flicked through it and it's such a big report, I just
28 never read it, sir.
29 325 Q. Well, do you accept the portion of the report which
30 indicates that "Kevin Fulton accepts that he supplied
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 52
1 misleading information at this time. The police Ombudsman
2 investigators are aware of his reasons for giving this
3 misleading information and these issues are being
4 considered by a Government agency." That's your claim,
5 isn't it?
6 A. No, sir, it's not my claim. Actually, it was where my
7 handlers had set me up to be murdered. I have actually
8 talked to the Tribunal about this on a few occasions. So,
9 sir, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick there.
10 326 Q. You do feel aggrieved about how you have been treated by
11 the State, don't you?
12 A. As I said, there is a legal challenge on -- just like any
13 of your clients, if there is a dispute on, a solicitor will
14 handle that dispute, you know. I am no more aggrieved than
15 anybody else in a situation of a contract, sir.
16 327 Q. Yes, but you are aggrieved about the financial arrangements
17 that have been made --
18 A. It's a package. You are just on a financial package. If
19 your clients don't pay you, you know, would you be there
20 for them or would you not go after them for your costs? Of
21 course you would, sir, so you are no different than me.
22 328 Q. Can I suggest to you that you would like to have that
23 resolved?
24 A. It will be resolved one way or the other through the
25 courts, sir, yes.
26 329 Q. And you would also, can I suggest to you, you would like,
27 if you could, to embarrass the State into settling up for
28 you?
29 A. No, sir, I don't need to embarrass the State into settling
30 up for me.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 53
1 330 Q. You would like them to settle up, wouldn't you?
2 A. I don't need to embarrass them to do that, sir. It will be
3 done through the courts.
4 331 Q. You are aware, aren't you, that on the 17th December 2008,
5 your wife, Margaret Keeley --
6 A. My former wife.
7 332 Q. When did you separate?
8 A. Oh, years ago. I am away from, about ten years I am away,
9 sir.
10 333 Q. And do you not still remain in contact?
11 A. I am in contact with her daily, sir, yes of course, but I
12 mean we are still friends, but we are not man and wife any
13 more.
14 334 Q. You are not divorced, are you?
15 A. No, sir, in my religion we don't believe in divorce.
16 335 Q. But you are aware, in any event, that she has filed a claim
17 in the High Court in Belfast?
18 A. I have seen it in the newspapers.
19 336 Q. You have only seen it in the newspapers?
20 A. I haven't seen it anywhere else.
21 337 Q. Did you not talk to her about it?
22 A. No, sir, she doesn't talk to me about it.
23 338 Q. But you talk to her daily?
24 A. I talk to her daily, yes, she visits my mother in the home.
25 339 Q. But you never mentioned this claim?
26 A. Absolutely. I don't have anything to do with it, sir. I
27 have caused the woman enough problems.
28 340 Q. Tell me, is that true that you don't talk about this claim
29 or have nothing to do with this claim?
30 A. I have nothing -- what have I got to do? I have nothing to
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 54
1 do with her claim. I mean she is her own person, she will
2 do her own thing.
3 341 Q. Did you not make a statement in support of her claim?
4 A. I made a statement to say that what actually had happened
5 that time, yes, sir.
6 342 Q. But that was to support her claim?
7 A. Well I am not supporting her claim. She is doing her own
8 thing.
9 343 Q. But did you make a statement?
10 A. Of course I made a statement that my handlers knew that she
11 had nothing -- my wife was arrested, as I have told the
12 Tribunal, over the operation that was botched to kill a
13 senior police officer. And I gave my wife the letter
14 saying that my handlers knew she had nothing to do with it
15 and she was arrested and held, basically, wrongly, yes,
16 sir.
17 344 Q. You made a statement?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 345 Q. On the 15th October 2007, is that right?
20 A. I can't remember the date, sir, but I remember writing
21 something, yeah.
22 346 Q. But how did you come about to make that statement?
23 A. Because I feel full of remorse for things that I have done
24 with people, sir.
25 347 Q. But who asked you to make the statement?
26 A. No one asked me to make the statement.
27 348 Q. You didn't know she was going to make a claim?
28 A. I gave it to her, that' it. She was actually talking to
29 some other people. That's a legal matter that has nothing
30 to do with me, you would need to bring that up with her,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 55
1 sir.
2 349 Q. You told us you didn't know anything about the claim.
3
4 MRS. LAVERTY: Chairman, I am sorry for interrupting,
5 Chairman, there are a lot of people waiting to ask
6 questions here. I, with the greatest of respect, don't see
7 any relevance to discussing legal actions that Mr. Fulton
8 may or may not have had in the past, or indeed in the
9 present. I don't know where the cross-examination is
10 going, but I think that in view of the constraints on time,
11 that it should be relevant and relevant to the matters that
12 have been mentioned by Mr. Fulton that may affect
13 Mr. O'Rourke's client.
14
15 MR. RAFFERTY: I have to say, Mr. Chairman, I have watched
16 with, I suppose a sense of nothing really that I can do
17 about it because I don't appear for Margaret Keeley, but
18 Margaret, I am aware that Margaret Keeley is suing both Mr.
19 O'Rourke's client, Freddie Scappaticci and, vicariously,
20 his employer, the Ministry of Defence, for false
21 imprisonment and threats to kill and assault. Now, we are
22 straying very, very far from the terms of your remit, Sir,
23 I respectfully say, into what is quite clearly a personal
24 attack based upon the animosity that Mr. Scappaticci holds
25 for Mr. Keeley, and if it goes wide-ranging, then in
26 re-examination there will be consequences because I have to
27 respectfully say that I should be allowed every bit as much
28 latitude as My Friend has got.
29
30 CHAIRMAN: Well, Mr. O'Rourke...
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 56
1
2 MR. O'ROURKE: Mr. Chairman, this witness has named my
3 client as having been involved in the matters that the
4 Tribunal is concerned with. Parallel to those proceedings
5 --
6
7 CHAIRMAN: Well, how is your client involved in these
8 proceedings by this witness's wife? Is he involved in
9 those?
10
11 MR. O'ROURKE: That's what I am inquiring about. I suggest
12 he is.
13
14 CHAIRMAN: I think you might perhaps concentrate on that
15 point, because you can't simply go on forever.
16
17 MR. O'ROURKE: I am not going on forever. I have been
18 literally on my feet for less than 20 minutes, and I am not
19 aware of the queue of people lining up to question this
20 witness because I understood that I was the last person to
21 ask any questions.
22
23 MR. RAFFERTY: No, he is not.
24
25 CHAIRMAN: There may be other counsel ready to ask
26 questions. But in any event, I think you do need to
27 concentrate --
28
29 MR. O'ROURKE: I think this matter is either relevant or
30 it's not relevant. I say it's not relevant, and if you
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 57
1 wish to overrule me on the relevance, then so be it, but I
2 think I should be allowed some latitude, and I am
3 disappointed, I have to say, that the Tribunal counsel do
4 not see the relevance of this. Either they are closing
5 their eyes to the matter or, I submit, are not alive to the
6 issues that are present in this case.
7
8 MS. MULVENNA: Sorry, Chairman, I also would have questions
9 -- I also have questions of this witness.
10
11 CHAIRMAN: Yes, you indicated.
12
13 MR. RAFFERTY: Can I ask, Mr. Chairman, what issue does Mr.
14 Scappaticci take with anything that Kevin Fulton has said
15 in his evidence about him at this Tribunal?
16
17 MR. O'ROURKE: Well I'll conduct my cross-examination the
18 way I see fit and Mr. Rafferty will not direct the course
19 that I take.
20
21 CHAIRMAN: But I merely suggest that I think Mrs. Laverty
22 is correct that you have to concentrate your
23 cross-examination more on the witness's evidence.
24
25 MR. O'ROURKE: Mr. Chairman, does the fact that a close
26 family member have a claim against my client not seem
27 relevant to the Tribunal?
28
29 CHAIRMAN: Sorry, are you asking this witness does his
30 ex-wife have a claim?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 58
1
2 MR. O'ROURKE: We have established she has a claim.
3
4 CHAIRMAN: Well, she is making a claim, yes.
5
6 MR. O'ROURKE: Yes, and he has made a statement in support
7 of that claim.
8
9 CHAIRMAN: Well, all right, you can further ask him
10 questions, but I mean the extent to which Mr. Scappaticci
11 is involved doesn't appear --
12
13 MR. O'ROURKE: Mr. Scappaticci is the defendant in the
14 claim.
15
16 CHAIRMAN: For false imprisonment?
17
18 MR. O'ROURKE: Yes.
19
20 CHAIRMAN: Very well. Continue then in that line.
21
22 350 Q. MR. O'ROURKE: But you say you know nothing about the
23 claim?
24 A. It has nothing to do with me.
25 351 Q. So the woman that you are in contact with daily and to whom
26 you have made a statement in support of her claim, you know
27 nothing about the claim?
28 A. Not the actual ins and outs of the claim, no.
29 352 Q. Don't worry about the ins and outs.
30 A. That's what I'm just saying to you, sir.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 59
1 353 Q. How did you come to make the statement in support of her
2 claim?
3 A. Because she was arrested by the Provisional IRA with myself
4 after I was released, sir, from Castlerea Holding Centre.
5 The IRA interrogated us because of this attack on Mr.
6 Martindale, a senior police officer -- it's in the public
7 domain --
8 354 Q. Mr. Keeley --
9 A. Hold on, I am just explaining. You asked me a question,
10 please let me finish.
11
12 CHAIRMAN: I think the witness must explain.
13
14 MR. O'ROURKE: If there is a time constraint, I have to say
15 it would be better if the witness answered my questions.
16
17 CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, Mr. O'Rourke, you must let the
18 witness answer the question.
19
20 MR. O'ROURKE: He is not answering the question.
21
22 CHAIRMAN: But he is explaining his answer. You are asking
23 him is he involved in his ex-wife's claim and why --
24
25 MR. O'ROURKE: No, no, I didn't, Mr. Chairman. I asked him
26 specifically how was it that he came to make this statement
27 in support.
28 A. That's what I am trying to explain.
29
30 CHAIRMAN: He is trying to explain that.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 60
1
2 MR. O'ROURKE: Did your wife's solicitors approach you and
3 say "would you make a statement?"?
4 A. No, sir, they didn't.
5 355 Q. How did you hear about the thing?
6
7 CHAIRMAN: Who asked you to make the statement?
8 A. No one asked me to make the statement.
9
10 CHAIRMAN: Why did you make it?
11 A. I made it because number one, my wife was arrested with me
12 by the police, and she had nothing to do with it.
13
14 CHAIRMAN: How did you know she had proceedings so that
15 you'd have to make a statement?
16 A. Because she had been talking to British and Irish Rights
17 Watch, which is an organisation that helps victims.
18
19 CHAIRMAN: And who asked you to make the statement?
20 A. No one asked me to make the statement. I made it.
21
22 CHAIRMAN: How did you know it was needed?
23 A. I sent to her, Sir.
24
25 CHAIRMAN: But how did you know?
26 A. I didn't know it was needed. I felt remorse for what I had
27 done to my wife. My wife was an innocent person who had
28 got caught up with the things of me and my handlers in the
29 British government. She was also arrested by the
30 Provisional IRA, and there was agents involved there, who
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 61
1 was Freddie Scappaticci.
2
3 CHAIRMAN: Very well. How did you know -- who drafted the
4 statement?
5 A. It's only a letter on an e-mail, Sir, and I sent that to
6 her.
7
8 MR. O'ROURKE: It's headed "Statement".
9 A. "Statement". Well it's a letter; it's a statement.
10 356 Q. Let me be clear. It was used in the High Court in
11 furtherance of your wife's claim?
12 A. Well I wasn't present, sir, so I don't know.
13 357 Q. You just sent her this statement knowing nothing about her
14 claim, is that the case?
15 A. It was sent to her explaining what had happened.
16 358 Q. Knowing nothing about whether she was making a claim?
17 A. I don't know whether she was going to make a claim or not,
18 sir.
19 359 Q. Is that the truth, Mr. Keeley?
20 A. It is the truth, sir, yes. You would need to ask -- you'd
21 need to go and speak to my ex-wife.
22 360 Q. You see, what I suggest to you, Mr. Keeley, is that her
23 claim is orchestrated by you and her together?
24 A. Oh absolutely not, sir, no, that's an awful thing to say.
25 361 Q. And that she -- in 2011, just June past, were you aware
26 that Mr. Scappaticci had been added as a defendant to that
27 claim?
28 A. I am not following it sir, no.
29
30 CHAIRMAN: By whom?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 62
1
2 MR. O'ROURKE: By the plaintiff
3
4 CHAIRMAN: By who?
5
6 MR. O'ROURKE: By the plaintiff. In other words, she is
7 claiming against Mr. Scappaticci.
8 A. Right, so you tell me.
9 362 Q. You didn't know anything about that?
10 A. It has nothing to do with me, sir.
11 363 Q. Right. So she was, you say, interrogated in 1994 by Mr.
12 Scappaticci, at the same time that you were?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 364 Q. And you are talking to her daily?
15 A. I talk to my wife daily, yes, sir; she rings up to see how
16 my well-being is.
17 365 Q. And she never mentioned to you "that man who falsely
18 imprisoned us in 1994, I am now making a claim against
19 him"?
20 A. She hasn't said that to me, sir, no.
21 366 Q. You see, I am suggesting that's untrue?
22 A. You are suggesting it, sir, but I'm just telling you that
23 is the case. She doesn't talk about it to me. I don't
24 talk to her about other things that happened within my
25 life, sir.
26 367 Q. I am suggesting to you that the inclusion of Mr.
27 Scappaticci in the proceedings is for the embarrassment of
28 the State, do you understand?
29 A. Why would it embarrass the State?
30 368 Q. You can't think of any reason?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 63
1 A. You tell me.
2 369 Q. Can you not think of any reason?
3 A. I know Mr. Scappaticci said he wasn't an informant and he
4 isn't "Stake knife". He is not embarrassed about anything,
5 is he?
6 370 Q. I say to you that it's about finances for you and your
7 wife?
8 A. Sir, me and my wife are separated, we don't live together
9 and we are not man and wife, sir.
10 371 Q. And it's for to promote your publicity?
11 A. No, sir. I would totally disagree with that. My wife's
12 case has nothing to do with me. It's my wife. If I wanted
13 to take a case against Mr. Scappaticci, I would do so and
14 then maybe you could make that suggestion to me, but that
15 is not the case.
16 372 Q. Tell me: you have told Mr. Durack just earlier this
17 morning that your involvement with Mr. Scappaticci --
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 373 Q. -- was in circumstances where you said that if he turned
20 up, you knew things --
21 A. You knew you were in trouble, absolutely, yes, sir, that's
22 correct.
23 374 Q. Did you ever socialise with him?
24 A. We did, we had a few pints before in different bars in
25 Dundalk when we with John Joe and 'Mooch' and different
26 people, yes, sir.
27 375 Q. And was your wife with you?
28 A. I think she would have been present at one or two, yeah.
29 376 Q. All right. So, what do you mean, then, that he was a man
30 that you were afraid of?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 64
1 A. Well, if you were going for a pint, you were going for a
2 pint, but if you were told to go to a house to meet him or
3 meet up with him, that's usually a different matter, sir.
4 377 Q. Tell me, when was that that you would have first
5 encountered Mr. Scappaticci, you say?
6 A. In the eighties, sir. In the eighties he was down in
7 Dundalk, again after a certain informer was caught in
8 Belfast, the RUC rescued an informer who had been
9 interrogated. 'Scap' moved down to Dundalk for a short
10 while. John Joe Magee moved permanently and a few other
11 IRA people that were --
12
13 MR. RAFFERTY: Mr. Chairman, whenever Mr. Keeley finishes,
14 I really have to object. This is all to do with the claim
15 in Belfast and nothing whatsoever to do with anything that
16 this Tribunal is properly constructed to do. This really
17 is being used for no other purpose.
18
19 CHAIRMAN: Well Mr. O'Rourke?
20
21 MR. O'ROURKE: I don't know what My Friend is talking
22 about, quite honestly. I am trying to ascertain what this
23 witness is saying about my client and his meetings with
24 him. He has named him as being involved in criminal
25 activity.
26
27 MR. RAFFERTY: Well, I might illustrate in the statement of
28 Mr. Keeley, which is before this Tribunal, which is
29 concerned with the murder of two police officers, in
30 passing. It is at page 8: "In this unit was myself,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 65
1 Patrick Joseph Blair, Mickey Collins... " -- various names
2 which I won't go any further with -- "... and at times
3 Scappaticci, who was living in Dundalk but had moved North,
4 again and sometimes was there when people were being
5 interrogated or debriefed." That's it. That's it. No
6 mention of Margaret Keeley. No mention of anything else.
7
8 CHAIRMAN: Very well. Mr. O'Rourke?
9
10 MR. O'ROURKE: I thought it was in this man's evidence that
11 Tom Oliver was handed over to Mr. Scappaticci? I thought
12 that was the evidence?
13
14 CHAIRMAN: Well, continue with your questioning, but you
15 must make it relevant.
16
17 MR. O'ROURKE: It is relevant, Mr. Chairman.
18
19 CHAIRMAN: Mr. O'Rourke, continue, but that's what I'm
20 saying.
21
22 MR. O'ROURKE: Was it before you went into prison or after
23 you came out of prison?
24 A. Well, it would have been after I came out of prison, sir.
25 378 Q. All right. And you deal with that in the book, don't you?
26 A. Well, I don't know. As I say, it was two ghost writers did
27 the book and I have always been on record there are
28 inaccuracies in the book.
29 379 Q. Well, what you say at page --
30 A. Well what is said in the book.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 66
1 380 Q. Sorry?
2 A. What it said in the book. Go ahead.
3 381 Q. What the book records is when you came out of prison
4 invigorated by the kudos that you had acquired in prison,
5 you went down to Dundalk and you met with the major players
6 of the IRA in Dundalk, and then you proceed to name a
7 series of people.
8 A. Well who were they?
9 382 Q. Well, do you not know?
10 A. Well I haven't read. I don't read the book. You tell me.
11 I don't know what page you're on, what you're reading, so
12 you're going to have to tell me what you are going on
13 about.
14 383 Q. It's about 71.
15 A. Well I couldn't tell you what's on page 71.
16 384 Q. You name several people who, you say, are major players in
17 the IRA in Dundalk?
18 A. Right.
19 385 Q. You do not mention anything about Mr. Scappaticci or anyone
20 with a pseudonym?
21 A. What names is mentioned?
22 386 Q. You name Mr. Hardy, Donna Maguire, James Morgan, Donie
23 Hughes.
24 A. All convicted people.
25 387 Q. Dermot Finucane.
26 A. Convicted people.
27 388 Q. Yes, but what I am pointing out to you is there is no
28 mention of my client --
29 A. But you never know -- when books are legal, there is people
30 who have no criminal convictions are not mentioned in them.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 67
1 Sometimes they change people's names as well, sir. I mean,
2 I had no editorial control on the book and, as I have said
3 to this Tribunal on a number of occasions, my whole history
4 isn't in that one book. You know, a book only has so many
5 pages. You can't get your life story into a book.
6
7 CHAIRMAN: Mr. O'Rourke is making the point he is naming
8 these names and evidently asking you why isn't Mr.
9 Scappaticci named amongst those names?
10 A. There must have been no room, or where it could have been
11 taken out for legal reasons. And, again, I had no
12 editorial control, and, again, it was two ghost writers
13 writ (sic) the book.
14 389 Q. You don't mention -- your evidence to this Tribunal is that
15 Tom Oliver, when he was first abducted, if that ever
16 occurred --
17 A. It did occur, yes.
18 390 Q. - was that he was handed over to Mr. Scappaticci?
19 A. And James Morgan.
20 391 Q. And James Morgan?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 392 Q. Right. You do agree with me, do you, that there is no
23 mention of that incident in the book?
24 A. There are a lot of incidents that I have been involved in,
25 sir, are not mentioned in the book.
26 393 Q. No, but --
27 A. You are thinking that this incident is the most important
28 one, the same way as other people are thinking that the
29 Garda is more important. You can't mention everything in
30 one book, sir.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 68
1 394 Q. First of all, let's establish: Do you agree that there is
2 no mention in the book?
3 A. Well if you say it's not in the book, then it mustn't be in
4 the book.
5 395 Q. Mr. Scappaticci, you say, was involved in the interrogation
6 of yourself and your wife in 1994?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 396 Q. In fact, that was the very matter that caused you to leave
9 the country, isn't that right?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 397 Q. That was a fairly significant matter, wasn't it?
12 A. It would have been, yes.
13 398 Q. Right. So, when you were recounting in the book various
14 incidents involving interrogations, etc., Mr. Scappaticci,
15 I suggest, would have been at the forefront of your mind
16 because of what you say happened in 1994?
17 A. Not always. John Joe was always there. John Joe was about
18 more than Scappaticci.
19 399 Q. No, but Mr. Scappaticci --
20 A. And 'Mooch' was about more than Mr. Scappaticci.
21 400 Q. But Mr. Scappaticci, if you are right about 1994, had a
22 particular relevance to you, didn't he?
23 A. Not really, no.
24 401 Q. So, this man, who you thought was going to kill you in 1994
25 and against whom your wife has brought legal proceedings,
26 had no real significance to you when you were writing your
27 book?
28 A. Not any more than anybody else.
29 402 Q. All right.
30 A. You know.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 69
1 403 Q. And, therefore, you just didn't mention the Tom Oliver
2 incident involving Mr. Scappaticci?
3 A. Whereabouts?
4 404 Q. In the book.
5 A. Is it not in it? Is it not?
6 405 Q. Isn't it, Mr. Keeley --
7 A. Everybody involved in the Tom Oliver thing, they are not
8 all mentioned in the book either, You know, so...
9 406 Q. Well isn't it because it never happened?
10 A. No, sir, that's not the case.
11 407 Q. And an incident in 1994 did not involve, if it occurred,
12 did not involve Mr. Scappaticci?
13 A. No, it did involve Mr. Scappaticci, sir.
14 408 Q. Tell me, when you went to see Jeffrey Donaldson twice, at
15 least, in the year 2000, one of the issues that he was
16 concerned about was whether you were reliable or credible?
17 A. Right.
18 409 Q. Isn't that right?
19 A. I don't know. If you are saying that's the case. I mean
20 he never said that to me, but go ahead, sir.
21 410 Q. He was asking you about some detail that would assist him
22 in assessing your credibility?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 411 Q. And you say -- I think you told us yesterday that you told
25 him about the Tom Oliver incident?
26 A. I may have told him, yeah.
27 412 Q. He says you never mentioned Scappaticci?
28 A. No, because Scappaticci, to me -- you are saying he is
29 relevant because he is your client. But to everybody else
30 he is not that relevant.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 70
1 413 Q. Tell me this: If the incident involving Tom Oliver being
2 handed over to my client occurred, do you understand?
3 A. Yes.
4 414 Q. How were you able to explain that to Mr. Donaldson without
5 mentioning my client?
6 A. I, more than likely, didn't mention all the people involved
7 in it, sir.
8 415 Q. But you would have had no inhibitions about naming people
9 to Mr. Donaldson, isn't that right?
10 A. I would have no inhibitions bout naming people to anybody
11 in a lawful thing, in anything like that, no.
12 416 Q. So it was a fairly free and easy conversation you were
13 having with Mr. Donaldson?
14 A. Absolutely. He didn't say "sit down and put all the names
15 involved". That didn't happen, no.
16 417 Q. So in this relaxed and easy discussion that you were having
17 with Mr. Donaldson when you were explaining about the Tom
18 Oliver incident, you had never mentioned Mr. Scappaticci?
19 A. It was a general conversation. I don't know who I
20 mentioned but I mentioned the thing of the actual
21 incidents, and Mr. Donaldson quite clearly went to a
22 reliable security service source, who was Ronnie Flanagan,
23 and he must have been happy enough with the result to do
24 what he did.
25 418 Q. Well let's get this clear. He says you never mentioned
26 Scappaticci. Do you agree with him or do you disagree?
27 A. Well I can't remember, sir. So, therefore, I don't know,
28 do I?
29 419 Q. You don't know. So you have no explanation or no -- you
30 can't assist the Tribunal in any way as to how you were
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 71
1 able to explain the Tom Oliver incident to Mr. Donaldson
2 and fail to mention my client, if he was involved?
3 A. I can't remember the whole conversation, sir.
4 420 Q. You see, what I am suggesting to you, Mr. Keeley, is that
5 you are desperate for attention, is that right?
6 A. No, sir, I am not desperate for attention.
7 421 Q. You like being in the limelight?
8 A. No, sir, I actually don't like being in the limelight.
9 422 Q. And naming Mr. Scappaticci laterally is an attempt to draw
10 the spotlight back on to you?
11 A. Absolutely not, sir.
12 423 Q. So that --
13 A. There is bigger fish than Mr. Scappaticci, sir.
14 424 Q. And I suggest to you that your evidence that he was
15 involved in any matter concerning you or Tom Oliver, or
16 indeed in 1994, is a fabrication for that reason?
17 A. No, sir. You are wrong.
18 425 Q. Thank you.
19
20 MR. O'ROURKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21
22 CHAIRMAN: Well now, any questions?
23
24 MRS. LAVERTY: It's ten to one, Chairman.
25
26 CHAIRMAN: We'll see. How long are you likely to take?
27
28 MS. MULVENNA: I am likely to perhaps go on for half an
29 hour.
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 72
1 CHAIRMAN: Half an hour, really? Well in that case it
2 might be as well to rise now and continue at two o'clock.
3 Thank you very much.
4
5 MR. RAFFERTY: Could I ask three things?
6
7 Mr. Chairman, logistically could I ask that we start at a
8 quarter to two to get an earlier start, because I think
9 there are certainly logistical arrangements that may be
10 infringed upon if we go very late into the afternoon.
11
12 CHAIRMAN: Very well. Does anybody else have any objection
13 to a quarter to two?
14
15 MR. RAFFERTY: Secondly, sir, there is an application on
16 behalf of Mr. Keeley and his legal team. It has become,
17 really, quite apparent that Mr. Keeley is now centre stage
18 in these proceedings, and our representation up until now
19 was limited to when we were notified of certain statements
20 which involved us, as it were. That has now been extended,
21 effectively, to be here for the rest of these proceedings.
22 Now, given the workload that that obviously entails, I'd
23 ask that an additional counsel be assigned in this case.
24
25 CHAIRMAN: I think I have notice of that. Mrs. Laverty, do
26 you have any --
27
28 MRS. LAVERTY: I think it would be appropriate because the
29 Tribunal has now notified Mr. Fulton's lawyers that they
30 really have to be here --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 73
1
2 CHAIRMAN: Very well.
3
4 MRS. LAVERTY: -- from now until the end.
5
6 CHAIRMAN: Very well. From now on until the end a second
7 counsel is needed.
8
9 MR. RAFFERTY: I am obliged. Thank you very much.
10
11 THE TRIBUNAL ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH. 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 74
1 THE TRIBUNAL CONTINUED AFTER LUNCH AS FOLLOWS:
2
3 CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. The witness is now seated.
4 Thank you very much. Any further questions?
5
6 MRS. LAFFERTY: There is an application before you resume
7 sitting, Chairman, from Mr. Flanigan, or his counsel.
8
9 MR. FLANIGAN: It's an application, sort of, following on
10 from the indication from the Tribunal that our attendance
11 would be required on a daily basis from now on and also
12 following from the evidence which has been given in
13 relation to my client and evidence which may be given in
14 relation to my client in the future, that our
15 representation, at the minute, is limited to a solicitor
16 and one counsel, and the application would be that that
17 should be extended to two counsel, given the very serious
18 matters.
19
20 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Is your client going to give evidence?
21
22 MR. FLANIGAN: That is a matter which is still under
23 consideration. This statement should be filed in the near
24 future.
25
26 CHAIRMAN: Well, I mean, you see, your client has sought,
27 and is entitled, to seek an undertaking from the Scottish
28 authorities as well as those in England and Wales and
29 Northern Ireland, which has already been given. The
30 application is to extend it to Scotland, which is in my
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 75
1 hands. I can't progress that in any way until
2 Mr. Scappaticci has filed a statement, which he hasn't done
3 yet, which would seem to indicate that he isn't intending
4 to give evidence. He is not living within this
5 jurisdiction and can't be compelled; he has to come
6 voluntarily.
7
8 MR. FLANIGAN: I don't believe that is the indication which
9 -- he has not given the indication that he is not giving
10 evidence.
11
12 CHAIRMAN: I think I need to have something more than that.
13 He needs to give an indication that he is giving evidence
14 and that he will, therefore, require the additional
15 representation referred to, which has been granted to this
16 witness when he became the central figure by reason of
17 giving testimony as a witness.
18
19 MR. FLANIGAN: If the Chair pleases. I can't advance the
20 matter further. The matter is under active consideration.
21
22 CHAIRMAN: Well, really, what I would need to get is, first
23 of all, a statement; secondly, the firm undertaking that he
24 is giving evidence, and based on that, I think it would be
25 reasonable to make an order granting additional counsel,
26 but I can't do it until that happens. Thank you very much.
27
28 Are you going to continue with -- or to cross-examine the
29 witness or is your counsel...
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 76
1 MR. FLANIGAN: No, our cross-examination is finished.
2
3 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you.
4
5 MR. SHEEHAN: My counsel is proposing to cross-examine the
6 witness, I am concerned she might be locked out because
7 there was a sign on the door saying it was locked until
8 two o'clock. Very well, my cryer will go immediately to
9 see if he has been locked out.
10
11 MR. SHEEHAN: She has texted me to say she was locked out.
12
13 CHAIRMAN: She will now be released. My crier has gone
14 down to the door.
15
16 MS. MULVENNA: I was locked outside.
17
18 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MS. MULVENNA AS FOLLOWS:
19
20 426 Q. MS. MULVENNA: Mr. Keeley, I just have a few questions that
21 I want to put to you. I appear for Mr. Blair instructed by
22 Aaron Kelly & Company, Solicitors.
23 Now, first of all, you gave evidence that Mr. Blair said
24 that Owen Corrigan provided him with information about
25 confidential garda matters?
26 A. I didn't say I provided him with it. Yeah -- you are on
27 about in the car park, is that the incident?
28 427 Q. Yes.
29 A. But Owen Corrigan's main point of contact was Patsy
30 O'Callaghan, yes.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 77
1 428 Q. But do you deny that?
2 A. What do you mean "do I deny that?"? No, I have already
3 said to the Tribunal that I was in the car with Patrick
4 Joseph Blair when Mr. Corrigan got in and supplied him with
5 information.
6 429 Q. Yes. So would you deny that Mr. Blair had anything to do
7 with Mr. Corrigan?
8 A. Well, I have already just said there now, I was present
9 with Mr. Blair in a car when Mr. Corrigan did give him
10 information.
11 430 Q. I will come on to that later on.
12 A. Right, right, sorry.
13 431 Q. Now, I don't know if you have read or heard any of the
14 evidence that Mr. Blair gave?
15 A. Not really, I haven't seen it, no.
16 432 Q. OK. Now, Mr. Blair gave evidence that he did not know
17 Mr. Corrigan, or Garda Corrigan, except for times when he
18 was being questioned or arrested by him?
19 A. Oh, right.
20 433 Q. What do you have to say to that?
21 A. Pardon?
22 434 Q. What do you have to say to that?
23 A. Well, if that is what Mr. Blair said, you know, that is
24 what he is saying. I know he was present in the car with
25 me when Mr. Corrigan was there. You know, maybe he just
26 didn't say that to you.
27 435 Q. I put it to you that you he wasn't in any car with you --
28 A. Oh, he was, madam, he was in the car with me and
29 Mr. Corrigan, yes.
30 436 Q. I would say that is a fabrication on your behalf.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 78
1 A. No, madam, it's not a fabrication.
2 437 Q. I also put it to you that Mr. Corrigan never provided
3 Mr. Blair with any confidential Garda information or any
4 information, any other type of information?
5 A. No, madam, he did supply -- Patrick 'Mooch' Blair and I was
6 present in the car with the information.
7 438 Q. Mr. Blair contradicts that.
8 A. Yes, well Mr. Blair, he is entitled to contradict that but
9 that is what happened.
10 439 Q. Now, Mr. Blair also gave evidence that he was not aware of
11 any garda confidential information be passed to any of his
12 colleagues or former colleagues in the Provisional IRA.
13 Mr. Blair -- do you want me to repeat the question?
14 A. No, absolutely, complete it, please.
15 440 Q. OK. I put it to that you Mr. Blair was not aware of any
16 confidential garda information being passed to any of his
17 colleagues or former colleagues in the Provisional IRA?
18 A. Mr. Blair was well aware of that information, madam.
19 441 Q. OK. Well, you disagree on that.
20 A. OK.
21 442 Q. Now, in relation to the alleged meeting that took place at
22 Fintan Callan's Céilí House whereby you allege that you
23 drove Mr. Blair to the house and that he went inside and
24 came out with Mr. Corrigan and that you sat in the car and
25 that Mr. Corrigan told you that Tom Oliver was an informer,
26 is a complete fabrication?
27 A. No, madam that is not the case. It's Fintan Callan's Céilí
28 House, it's a pub, not a house, and Mr. Corrigan did get
29 into the car with Mr. Blair and say that and I was present
30 in the car.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 79
1 443 Q. I put it to you that that never happened?
2 A. It did happen, madam.
3 444 Q. Now, in relation to the house, in relation to the Céilí
4 House, could you describe where it is?
5 A. It's out by Carrickmacross. It was on the left-hand side
6 of the road. When we pulled into it the car park was like
7 a gravel, you know, a gravel finish, it wasn't a tarmac
8 finish.
9 445 Q. Is it on the Castleblayney Road?
10 A. It was on the main road, so the road we would go out to
11 Patrick O'Callaghan's, I wouldn't know the name of the road
12 but I could drive you to it.
13 446 Q. And it's halfway between Dundalk and Crossmaglen?
14 A. The road that we would have took was on the main road. We
15 turned off to go to Patrick O'Callaghan's house was the
16 right, we went straight on and it was on the left-hand
17 side.
18 447 Q. Well I put it to you that the house is halfway between
19 Dundalk and Crossmaglen?
20 A. Yeah, well I mean...
21 448 Q. The main road.
22 A. I never measured the distances between them. The only time
23 I would have been out that road would be to go to Patrick
24 O'Callaghan's house. I mean I would never have went to
25 Crossmaglen from that area, so I wouldn't know the
26 distances between halfway, a third, or anything else,
27 madam.
28 449 Q. But it was a distance away from Dundalk?
29 A. It was a distance. I wouldn't like to be walking it.
30 450 Q. OK. And it was on the main road?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 80
1 A. It was on a roadway. It was a road; it was a main road.
2 451 Q. Now, are you asking the Tribunal to believe that a
3 convicted prisoner -- sorry, a convicted person, a serious
4 IRA man, would sit in a car with a Detective Garda in a
5 place that was known as anti-republican activists?
6 A. Oh, yes, he would sit in a car with many types of people,
7 you know, there is nothing sort of special about that. Why
8 would he not sit in it?
9 452 Q. I put it to that you that never happened.
10 A. Oh, well it did happen, madam.
11 453 Q. Now, on the day of the murders, on the 20th of March, could
12 you tell me again where you were?
13 A. I was in Dundalk. I was in Muirhevnamor, in Patrick Joseph
14 Blair's house, madam.
15 454 Q. And what time would that have been?
16 A. Again, I didn't look at my watch. I was there most of the
17 day, as I was most days during the week with Patrick Joseph
18 Blair.
19 455 Q. Could you give us an indication, would it have been
20 morning, lunchtime, afternoon?
21 A. I would have been there mid-morning and stayed, usually,
22 until after teatime, almost six days week I would have been
23 up with 'Mooch'.
24 456 Q. And was Mr. Blair's wife in the house at that time?
25 A. Eileen would have been there, yes.
26 457 Q. OK. Well, I put it to you that Mr. Blair was not in his
27 house on the day in question; that he was down in the pub
28 and in bookies and that when members of the gardaí called
29 to his house that evening, they could see by his demeanour
30 that he was in the pub for the day?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 81
1 A. No, madam, he was in the house that day with me.
2 458 Q. Now, also in relation to evidence you gave, you said that
3 Mr. Blair green-booked you?
4 A. Yes, he was responsible for green-booking me, and also he
5 was the witness at the swearing-in. We were at Mickey
6 Collins's house just across from 'Mooch's' house, and the
7 person swore me in was -- Mickey done the words and 'Mooch'
8 stood there as the officer, as a witness to that, yes, and
9 it was in Mickey's front sitting room of his house.
10 459 Q. I think you have heard evidence throughout this Tribunal
11 that members of the gardaí, PSNI, have described you as a
12 nuisance and a gofer, and I put it to you that Mr. Blair
13 never green-booked you, and that he also considered you as
14 a gofer?
15 A. Is that you finished?
16 460 Q. Yes.
17 A. No, madam, I wouldn't agree with that at all. I was there
18 with Patrick Joseph Blair. He instructed me how to make
19 bombs, do everything else. Patrick Joseph Blair is not the
20 type of person that would not have anyone around him that
21 he didn't trust. Patrick Joseph's Blair day to day
22 business was IRA business of planning to kill members of
23 the security forces, making bombs, developing bombs, things
24 like that. So, you know, it's a little bit rich to try to
25 think that he would have someone around him that he doesn't
26 trust.
27 461 Q. Now, you just referred there that Mr. Blair and yourself
28 would make bombs together?
29 A. Absolutely, madam, yes.
30 462 Q. Well I put it to you that Mr. Blair never made bombs with
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 82
1 you?
2 A. Mr. Blair made bombs all the time. Mr. Blair developed new
3 types of bombs. In Mr. Blair's kitchen, he put together an
4 under car booby-trap bomb which was --
5 463 Q. Sorry, Mr. Keeley --
6 A. No, I am just going to tell you, I am just explaining to
7 you, madam. You are saying there that this didn't happen.
8 I will explain it step by step just so that you can make
9 your own decision. In his kitchen one evening he made a
10 booby-trap bomb, and up-and-under, it was a lunch box.
11 There was two C-searcher magnets, which were glued on with
12 glue gun. There was also part of a box timer, which is the
13 safety thing for the person to put it under someone's car.
14 He also made the mercury tilt switch with a small piece of
15 plastic tubing which he glue-gunned one end. He then
16 proceeded to put two tacks into that tube which made the
17 connector points that you put wires to. He then put a
18 little spoonful of mercury into the tube and sealed it up.
19 He made that pack up and gave it to James Morgan. James
20 Morgan took it away from the house that evening. The next
21 day, a gentleman in Kilkeel was blown up, I think it was a
22 Mr. Graham, a builder's merchant. So, you know, 'Mooch'
23 Blair was a bomb maker, you know.
24 464 Q. Mr. Keeley, I believe you could be mixing that incident up
25 with somebody else?
26 A. Do you think so?
27 465 Q. Yes.
28 A. I don't think so, madam.
29 466 Q. OK.
30 A. Please enlighten me.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 83
1 467 Q. Mr. Keeley, do you remember the Narrow Water bomb?
2 A. I remember it, yes, madam.
3 468 Q. And how -- could you tell us about it? How did you hear
4 about it or come across it?
5 A. Well, it was on every TV channel in the world, and shortly
6 after that I joined the British Army, so everybody knew of
7 Narrow Water, it was one of the biggest, at that time one
8 of the biggest atrocities, loss of life by British service
9 personnel at one time.
10 469 Q. And, sorry, what did you say?
11 A. It was the biggest loss of life, at that time, for British
12 personnel in an IRA attack.
13 470 Q. OK. And --
14 A. It was on television. Everybody heard about it and read it
15 about it in the newspapers.
16 471 Q. Are there any names mentioned of who was involved in it?
17 A. On TV? On TV, it would have been just the Provisional IRA,
18 madam.
19 472 Q. In your evidence, did you say Garda Corrigan was involved
20 in that?
21 A. He wasn't involved in the bombing, no, madam.
22 473 Q. Did you say that he could have given information?
23 A. I never said he could have -- he wouldn't be able to give
24 information on the movements of British armed forces,
25 madam.
26 474 Q. I think you could have said in your evidence somewhere that
27 Garda Corrigan helped to clean up the situation after --
28 A. Oh, yes, but that is not in relation -- you asked me in
29 relation to the attack, did he give information in relation
30 to the attack.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 84
1 475 Q. And where did you hear that from?
2 A. That would have been from your client, Patrick Joseph
3 Blair, in conversations with him, socialising and in
4 private in his house.
5 476 Q. Now, what year was that bombing?
6 A. Madam, I can't remember the exact year of the bombing. It
7 was just before I joined the British army.
8 477 Q. Would it have been August 1979?
9 A. If you say that is what it is.
10 478 Q. I think, yes.
11 A. Because I joined the army in 1979.
12 479 Q. And are you aware that Mr. Blair was actually in prison
13 serving a sentence between 1975 and 1982?
14 A. Yeah, and what has that got to do? I didn't say he was
15 involved in the attack.
16 480 Q. You said you got the information.
17 A. Off him, yeah. I mean, 'Mooch' Blair talks to IRA people;
18 he was the OC of the IRA in Newry, madam.
19 481 Q. But he was in prison?
20 A. Yeah. But when he came out of prison is he not talking to
21 people about incidents that has happened, madam?
22 482 Q. So, I put it to that you this is just hearsay and fantasy.
23 Mr. Blair was in prison during the time you allege you
24 heard this information from him?
25 A. No, I didn't allege that I heard the information at that
26 time. In 1979, I joined the British Army. So when I was
27 in the British Army I was away with my regiment, I couldn't
28 be with Patrick Joseph Blair. And in my evidence to the
29 Tribunal, I said when I came out of the British Army I had
30 been in prison, I then met 'Mooch' Blair, he had just got
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 85
1 out of prison, and that is when I got associated with your
2 client, Mr. Blair. You know, so no one has said I got it
3 at that time.
4 483 Q. Now, Mr. Keeley, are you still receiving money for selling
5 your stories to newspapers?
6 A. Am I what, madam?
7 484 Q. Receiving money for selling your stories?
8 A. No, madam, I am not receiving money for selling stories to
9 newspapers, or even giving stories to papers, I don't get
10 paid.
11 485 Q. And do you get paid by the MI5?
12 A. I get an allowance from MI5 and I get my accommodation;
13 that's within their duty of care, madam.
14 486 Q. You also gave evidence about the abduction of Tom Oliver?
15 A. Yes, madam.
16 487 Q. And I think you said that Mr. Blair was in the van?
17 A. Yes, madam, 'Mooch' Blair would have been in the van a lot
18 of times. Everything I done with the Internal Security
19 Unit, 'Mooch' was one of the key people. 'Mooch' was my OC
20 and was my mentor. Basically everything I learned within
21 the IRA I learned from Patrick Joseph Blair, madam.
22 488 Q. Well, I put it to you that Mr. Blair was not in the van on
23 the date as you stated.
24 A. He was.
25 489 Q. And had nothing to do with --
26 A. Yes he had something to do with it, madam.
27 490 Q. Now, in relation to the day of the bombing, Mr. Blair gave
28 evidence that he was actually working in a pub in Navan on
29 the day?
30 A. Which bombing?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 86
1 491 Q. The day of the Omagh bombing.
2 A. The day of the Omagh bombing, I was on holidays in Tenerife
3 on the day of the Omagh bombing.
4 492 Q. I think you tried to imply that Mr. Blair was involved in
5 it?
6 A. I implied that Mr. Blair had been mixing explosive
7 approximately 48 hours before the bombing, madam.
8 493 Q. And when you said that, you were trying to imply that he
9 was involved somehow with this bombing?
10 A. I believe so, madam, yes. I had given my handlers that he
11 was mixing explosives for approximately 48 hours before the
12 bomb.
13 494 Q. Well, Mr. Blair denies that completely.
14 A. I am sure he does.
15 495 Q. I put it to you finally, that all the evidence you have
16 given here has been total fabrication?
17 A. No, madam, it has not. It's been the truth.
18 496 Q. No further questions.
19
20 CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
21
22 MR. RAFFERTY: Good afternoon. Mr. Keeley, my name is Neil
23 Rafferty and I appear on behalf of yourself. If it's all
24 right with you, I know what you look like, if it's all
25 right, can I ask you questions from here?
26 A. Yes, certainly.
27
28 THE WITNESS WAS EXAMINED BY MR. RAFFERTY AS FOLLOWS:
29
30 497 Q. MR. RAFFERTY: Can I start off with a number of key figures
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 87
1 in your evidence?
2 A. Yes.
3 498 Q. And can you help the Tribunal by giving a picture of them.
4 The first is, Patsy O'Callaghan?
5 A. Yes.
6 499 Q. Yes. Can you tell me what his role and function within the
7 IRA was?
8 A. Well, the function and role that I know that he is with the
9 IRA was, when the Internal Security Unit had arrests on
10 someone suspected of being a British agent or informant,
11 they would be arrested and taken to a safe place to be
12 interrogated. The IRA had purchased from America, and had
13 someone trained in it, which I believe is Mr. O'Callaghan,
14 it was a voice stress analyser. This machine would be
15 something like a, similar to a polygraph but could only
16 give an indication on things.
17 500 Q. Yes. Can I ask you, how senior was he?
18 A. Very senior. He would be 'Slab' Murphy's right-hand man; a
19 very senior person indeed.
20 501 Q. And so he was, well, 'Slab' Murphy's right-hand man. What
21 does that make him?
22 A. Yes, he would be like a Siamese twin to 'Slab' Murphy.
23 502 Q. And in terms of intelligence within the IRA, where would he
24 be in connection with that?
25 A. Well, Intelligence -- he would be there with the Internal
26 Security team, he was actually getting people's answers to
27 questions from the likes of Mr. Scappaticci or John Joe
28 Magee; these would be the chief interrogators, the head
29 people. So when they would ask the questions, the
30 audiotape would be given along with a list of the questions
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 88
1 on cigarette papers rolled up into a communications, and he
2 would then analyse that. We would go out in the van at
3 night and give him the tape and the note with it, and you
4 go out the next morning, he would give you a new tape and
5 new piece of paper and it would have the scores of the
6 questioning on the papers from the night before. So
7 basically, he was instructing John-Joe and the likes of
8 'Scap': He is being possibly honest in this, dishonest in
9 this, question him more on these questions. It was, the
10 voice stress analyser was giving indications when he was
11 weak on things.
12 503 Q. Would he have been more intelligence based in his role or
13 actively based in his role?
14 A. He was intelligence plus active. I mean, I have heard of
15 things he has done. I think Mr. O'Callaghan at one time
16 had been jailed for IRA activities at one time. I think.
17 I am not totally sure.
18 504 Q. I don't want to go into specific allegations about what he
19 has done. I do want you to outline his role in relation to
20 intelligence gathering. Can you tell us anything about
21 that?
22 A. It was mostly with the informants and that. Also, if there
23 was any courts of inquiry, if there was complaints to the
24 IRA if something went wrong, sometimes Patsy would turn up
25 along with some -- one meeting I do know of a senior person
26 in the Northern Ireland office now, within the Northern
27 Ireland Government, who was an IRA figure.
28 505 Q. Would it be fair to say he is fairly well connected?
29 A. Oh, he is very high up the chain, yes, sir.
30 506 Q. And you said -- who is 'Slab' Murphy?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 89
1 A. 'Slab' Murphy: he is one of the top IRA men on the Army
2 Council; he is from Crossmaglen, South Armagh.
3 507 Q. And you said Patsy O'Callaghan was his right-hand man?
4 A. He definitely was his right-hand man, yes, sir.
5 508 Q. Thank you. Let's move to another individual: 'Mooch'
6 Blair?
7 A. Yes.
8 509 Q. Who is he?
9 A. Patrick Joseph Blair, 'Mooch' Blair was a Newry man who
10 has, he has a conviction for attempted murder of a person,
11 an RUC man or a policeman off duty. He also was the OC of
12 the Newry area. He is -- he was active in a lot of
13 murders, bombings. He would be a very committed terrorist.
14 510 Q. And how well connected is he?
15 A. He was the OC of Newry, which was the officer commanding of
16 a number of units.
17 511 Q. In relation to his personality, we have heard evidence that
18 he is a braggart and that he liked to talk about things
19 that he did?
20 A. Yes.
21 512 Q. Would you agree with that assessment?
22 A. He does, yes. I mean, to him he is very proud of what he
23 does, and anybody that knows him would know he would always
24 talk about operations after they happened and he would go
25 into great detail. On a number of occasions he gave me
26 details of operations that he was on where people were
27 murdered. I gave it to my handlers. They checked it out
28 and every single detail, they went "yes, it's there." Even
29 to the fact of the attack in Derryard, where the IRA
30 overrun the checkpoint and took over, they shot a young
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 90
1 Scottish soldier dead and they took his Browning 9mm
2 pistol, and this was actually a trophy that the IRA had;
3 they were going to use it to kill people as well.
4 513 Q. I think we have also heard that he rang the police to taunt
5 them about murders?
6 A. Yes. On occasions, when he was drunk in Dundalk, had a
7 habit of going to a coin box and ringing Newry Police
8 Station and he used to take great joy of annoying the
9 police by ringing them. It would be a murder the public
10 would know as 'The Butchers' where the three policemen, on
11 a Saturday afternoon, were sitting eating ice-cream in a
12 car, and him and Man A, on the cipher, actually went in and
13 shot the three policemen. And it was a case where 'Mooch'
14 would say well, they shot the two in the front, the young
15 guy in the back, I know his name was Karl Blackwater --
16 Blackburn, his father built stations for the police --
17 'Mooch' said he actually gave him a chance to go for his
18 gun and he started crying for his mummy and then he shot
19 him. And 'Mooch' would take great pleasure in ringing
20 Newry police to tell them this and laughing, and I'd say
21 that to my handlers and they knew about this as well, and
22 they said "yeah". They actually described him as a sick
23 psychopath.
24 514 Q. The third person is Mickey Collins, and he had a nickname
25 in the IRA, 'Reports Coming in'?
26 A. 'Reports Coming In'.
27 515 Q. Who was Mickey Collins?
28 A. Mickey Collins was a Newry man who was in the IRA. I don't
29 believe he has ever been arrested, but he was wanted for
30 murder in Northern Ireland. He moved to the Irish
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1 Republic. He had a bad heart. But on certain jobs Mickey
2 would be sent down -- one particular job Mickey did, and
3 this is 'Mooch', everybody talking, they were down to a
4 shoot a UDR man, I think he was a postman, at Rostrevor
5 Post Office, and before the postman came a police car
6 pulled up, and they reckoned it could have been a money
7 run, so Mickey was there with the driver, so he got out of
8 the car, shot two of the policemen dead and wounded the
9 third policeman. And I remember a the time the third
10 policeman returned fire on them and he wounded Mickey's
11 driver in the foot, and I remember, even on the news, they
12 abandoned the car just on the outside skirts of
13 Warrenpoint, which is about, three, four mile from
14 Rostrevor, and escaped.
15 516 Q. Can I ask you, what rank or what position did Mickey
16 Collins hold?
17 A. Mickey Collins would have been brave and senior within the
18 IRA, but, because of his ill health, he wouldn't have been
19 out on every job.
20 517 Q. Now, is it right that he was called 'Reports Coming In'
21 because he revelled in telling other volunteers about
22 murders that he was hearing about?
23 A. It was. It was mostly television, he would come running
24 over to 'Mooch' with "reports coming, reports coming in"
25 you know, of a shooting, a bombing. Because the "reports
26 coming in", this was a term used on television by news
27 readers, you know like "reports are coming in of a shooting
28 in the Newry area, the Belfast area" and he got the
29 nickname of 'Reports Coming In' because he got very excited
30 when these things happened.
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1 518 Q. Now, within the IRA, 'Mooch' Blair and Mickey Collins,
2 would they be two men that would talk about operations that
3 they'd been on, operations that they'd heard about, and
4 operations that other people had been on?
5 A. Mickey Collins wouldn't talk half as much as 'Mooch' Blair,
6 but 'Mooch' would talk about every operation and any
7 operation.
8 519 Q. And was it part of your function to sit there and listen?
9 A. Yes, sir, I would sit and listen and give my handlers the
10 details of operations that they were talking about and my
11 handlers would usually come back and confirm the stuff.
12 These were military, MI5 and Special Branch. But many
13 years later, my -- CID handler 70, especially No. 70, when
14 I had passed comment on some of the stuff that I had given
15 MI5, army and Special Branch, he actually became very
16 agitated and annoyed and says -- he actually said "I was a
17 policeman in that area and I knew those people." I think
18 he was on the detective team investigating and he says "we
19 never got that information." And it was quite clear to
20 from him that that information was never shared with the
21 investigating officers of those crimes.
22 520 Q. Thank you very much. I want to move, now, to two aspects
23 of Mr. O'Callaghan's cross-examination.
24 A. Yes.
25 521 Q. He asked you a number of questions based upon Witness 64.
26 I don't know if you still have the cipher?
27 A. No, I don't, sir.
28 522 Q. Witness 64 was -- well, if you give me one moment, please.
29 Do you know that name of 64 without saying it?
30 A. I can't -- I don't know who 64 is. If you tell me his
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1 position.
2 523 Q. He was an Inspector in charge of, allegedly, the team that
3 handled you?
4 A. Was he based in Newry?
5 524 Q. Based in Newry.
6 A. Yes, I know who you are talking about. That is the witness
7 who lied to this Tribunal.
8 525 Q. Yes. Well I want to deal with you in relation to that man
9 and an aspect of his evidence.
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 526 Q. But he said something about needing a good psychologist to
12 get to the bottom of you.
13 A. Right.
14 527 Q. In relation to Witness 64, did you at any stage make a
15 statement to the Ombudsman which caused an investigation
16 into the murder of Colleen McMurray and which led to
17 Witness 64 being the subject of an Ombudsman's
18 investigation?
19 A. Well I wouldn't have realised who 64 is. I would have told
20 the Ombudsman the things I had told handlers. She would
21 not have consulted with me who she was quizzing or anything
22 else, so I wouldn't know who she was talking to, you know,
23 but...
24 528 Q. But have you subsequently found out that 64 was questioned?
25 A. I didn't know whether he was questioned, but I realised
26 what he is saying there was wrong. The thing is, you have
27 got to remember, if 64 was handling the team of Special
28 Branch officers that were with my own handlers, he then
29 becomes responsible for everything I have done and they
30 have done. So maybe that's his excuse for using those
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1 derogatory terms.
2 529 Q. Yes. So you would expect him to be the subject of an
3 investigation upon what you told the Ombudsman?
4 A. Well I wouldn't have known him personally, but, absolutely
5 the things that I have told the Ombudsman, the Ombudsman
6 looked at, I do know that.
7 530 Q. I want to move to a direct portion of his evidence and I am
8 going to read it to you.
9 "Question: Are you aware of the Colleen McMurray.
10 murder?
11 Answer: Yes.
12 Question: And are you aware that newspaper articles
13 are published whereby Mr. Kevin Fulton said that he
14 told RUC MI5 in advance of the murder, that 'Mooch'
15 Blair was working on a new weapon?
16 Answer: Yes.
17 Question: Did you meet any of the police families
18 after that?
19 Answer: Did I meet with police families?
20 Question: Yes.
21 Answer: No."
22 Do you have any comment upon that?
23 A. Yes, sir. That's a lie.
24 531 Q. How do you know it's a lie?
25 A. Because I have been. I have met a representative of one of
26 the families and a friend of the victims.
27 532 Q. Would you write the name of that family representative on a
28 piece of paper for the Chairman, please?
29 A. Yes.
30 (Witness writes name down)
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 95
1 533 Q. And the name of the family, please?
2 A. Yes. And do you want the name of the person that I met as
3 well?
4 534 Q. Yes, please. So contrary to his evidence, you are
5 absolutely positive that he met with that family?
6 A. Yes, sir, he did. And he actually met -- the injured
7 officer as well, his family, yes.
8 535 Q. So he met both of them?
9 A. He met people from both of the families, yes, sir. That is
10 my information and I believe it 100 percent.
11 536 Q. Mr. Chairman, we will be supplying details about this for
12 the Tribunal to investigate, if they wish.
13
14 The next point that you were cross-examined upon, which I
15 wish to bring out with you, by Mr. O'Callaghan, was in
16 relation to the Eurodisney Paris portion, do you remember
17 that?
18 A. I remember working out -- well, what's the question?
19 537 Q. Well, I am going to read to you what was put to you about
20 that, because it was put to you:
21 "Question: You are aware that somebody tried to.
22 assassinate Joe Haughey, are you?"
23 This is at the top of page 70.
24
25 "Answer: I am, yeah, yeah.
26 Question: An account of that appeared on the
27 website 'Newshound'. Let me just read out to you
28 what it says. It says: 'On the 16th of June
29 1991' -- just pause on that date for a second, the
30 16th of June 1991, that is a month before Tom Oliver
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 96
1 was murdered" -- and then he reads to you the piece
2 from the Newshound: --
3 "Joe Haughey was returning to his Unity walk home
4 when loyalist gunmen opened fire from a passing
5 Sierra. Having missed their target, the gunmen then
6 chased Haughey into the then Unity flats complex and
7 opened fire again. He was hit in the arm. The
8 shooting came just a year after a British newspaper
9 named Haughey as an IRA intelligence officer and
10 claimed he got a job at Eurodisney. He was later
11 paid off by a construction company.
12 Question: Now, if that is correct, you were out
13 working for Eurodisney in June 1990?
14 Answer: Well, the dates I am not sure of but,
15 as I say, I will go and look up the dates.
16 Question: Yes. But again, it puts you in Ireland
17 at the time Tom Oliver was murdered?
18 Answer: No, sure I wasn't here when he got
19 murdered."
20 Do you remember that sequence of questions?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 538 Q. And do you remember on foot of that, it being put to you
23 that you were involved in the last moments of Tom Oliver's
24 life?
25 A. Yes, sir. And I deny that.
26 539 Q. Yes. Well, I want to read to you a piece of information
27 from a website called 'Saoirse32' and from their archives:
28 "Carrickhill man devastated by British spy claims." It
29 deals with claims and then states: "Carrickhill man, Joe
30 Haughey, said he was devastated by the latest accusations
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1 and said he feared for the safety of his family. The
2 51-year-old, who survived several murder attempts by
3 loyalists paramilitaries, rubbished the claims he was a
4 British spy posted on the controversial website 'Crypto'
5 which were reproduced in a Sunday newspaper. 'I want to
6 state categorically that lease are lies and scandalous
7 allegations' said Joe Haughey last night. 'I was in Paris
8 working as a labourer in the 1990s after I was shot by
9 loyalists. At no time did I have any dealings with Peter
10 Keeley, who I knew as an acquaintance. I didn't know
11 anything about him. A story broke in one of the
12 British papers that I was part of an IRA Active Service
13 Unit. That was completely untrue and I had to come back
14 home.'" The date on the paper for the Sunday Express
15 article, which we have, is the 29th of September, 1991.
16 Does that help you in saying whether you were in Eurodisney
17 in '91 or '90?
18 A. Yes, sir, it does help.
19 540 Q. When were you in Eurodisney?
20 A. Again, I can't remember the right date but I know it was
21 when Tom Oliver was killed.
22 541 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, I will make copies of
23 that available.
24
25 CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
26
27 MR. RAFFERTY: In relation to your career where you are
28 branded as a fantasist by some people. In relation to your
29 Special Branch career, even the most grudging of Special
30 Branch officers, Witness 64, confirmed that you had saved
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1 lives. Are you aware of that?
2 A. Not really. I don't know who 64 is.
3 542 Q. Well, can I ask you --
4 A. I don't need to know who he is.
5 543 Q. Can I ask you briefly, can you tell us about what
6 information you gave that saved lives?
7 A. You want each thing, yeah?
8 544 Q. Please.
9 A. I gave information about an attack planned for Newry
10 Courthouse. That was thwarted by the RUC; they put up
11 height restricters, therefore it saved all the workers
12 inside building the court.
13 545 Q. What type of attack?
14 A. It was a mortar attack, a number of mortars, I think it was
15 two or three mortars were used in the attack, but, since
16 they couldn't fire it at the courthouse, they moved it to
17 another location and they filled harmlessly into a field.
18 546 Q. And how was that thwarted?
19 A. When I gave the information to the handlers, MI5, the RUC
20 were there, they put a height restricter which actually
21 stopped vans, you could only take a car into the car park.
22 So therefore, when the mortar is made to fire out at the
23 target, they have it measured out, they have the propulsion
24 measured so it will push the projectile a certain distance,
25 so when you move the firing point, it doesn't work, it'll
26 overshoot or fall short.
27 547 Q. What else?
28 A. Also, there was a UDR man in Bramblewood, I was there with
29 Joe Hawkey when his in-law gave the information about him
30 being a UDR man. I gave that to my handlers. They
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1 evacuated that UDR officer from his home.
2 548 Q. What else?
3 A. There was also -- the IRA planned another bomb attack in
4 Patrick Street in Newry. I gave my handlers that
5 information, that this attack was planned and was going to
6 go ahead. I showed them the area where it was going to be.
7 They put a covert unit of soldiers into that immediate
8 area, they filmed and watched the area for a few days and
9 they caught, red-handed, two IRA volunteers with a two-kilo
10 semtex bomb.
11 549 Q. Was that Jarvis and Marks?
12 A. That was Marks and Coyle, I think it was.
13 550 Q. And do you know how long they got?
14 A. I don't know, they got sentenced to jail. They were
15 brought to court.
16 551 Q. What else?
17 A. Also, the little cleaner man inside, he used to go for the
18 newspapers every morning to Thompson's, a newspaper shop in
19 Sugar Island. I was actually going to be tasked by the IRA
20 to shoot him, so I told my handlers about that, and that
21 little man retired immediately.
22 552 Q. What else?
23 A. There would have been other things with the flash unit, new
24 developments of the IRA flash units. I got -- from the
25 flash unit they killed Colleen McMurray, the IRA moved on
26 to coded flash, this was a coded system, it was infrared,
27 so you would see no flash of white light, you could use it
28 during the day, the night, but it was coded, which means
29 you set a signal like a code, so any other light wouldn't
30 set it off, so it had to be this specific code. I went to
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1 America to purchase stuff there. And, in between, my
2 handlers brought it to, it must have been the scientific
3 people. They arranged new counter-measures to prevent that
4 from blowing up troops.
5 553 Q. You acknowledge that you and Special Branch fell out?
6 A. Yes, sir, we fell out because of the way -- sometimes, it
7 was a personality clash with -- I only thought it was
8 one --
9 554 Q. I think that is a matter of public record.
10 A. Yes.
11 555 Q. You then started work with Customs and Excise?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 556 Q. And what did you give them?
14 A. I targeted, again, people taking in tobacco, drugs. Drugs
15 were even coming into the Irish Republic, so my handlers in
16 the North tipped off the Irish Customs down here and the
17 Garda. Sometimes -- at one stage, in Limerick, they got
18 one of the biggest drugs hauls of hash, the smoking drugs,
19 coming in. They arrested the people there. There was lots
20 of catches like that down here.
21 557 Q. And then in '96 you go to work for CID?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 558 Q. And that is with Witness 71?
24 A. 70 -- yes, 70 and 71, yes.
25 559 Q. Now, I am sorry, but this sounds fantastical: How does a
26 boy like you find out about £18 million worth of computer
27 chips?
28 A. Sometimes, sir, it's things that I have learned when I was
29 in the IRA with people, and everything else, you get in
30 with people. If you have the name of -- I used the
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1 expression, if you have the name of an early riser, you can
2 stay in bed all day. I would have had the name of having
3 good contacts within all sorts of people.
4 560 Q. Tell us about the computer chips, what was that?
5 A. The computer thing was, there was sometimes -- it was a VAT
6 fraud, and, at this stage, there was a place in Derry that
7 made computer chips, and computer chips were actually worth
8 more than -- they were worth more than their weight in
9 gold. So this Italian person, who has Mafia connections,
10 Marotta, actually got in touch, and he was talking to, I
11 gave them names. I don't know if I am allowed to say their
12 names? There was a Sinn Fein guy, he was an IRA guy.
13
14 CHAIRMAN: These are the names you have given already?
15 A. That I think I have given yesterday or the day before.
16
17 CHAIRMAN: There is --
18 A. In Derry.
19
20 CHAIRMAN: -- a married couple in Derry?
21 A. Yes, sir, yes, sir, those people. And they had -- they
22 were going to arrange with IRA people, they were going to
23 hijack a 40-foot container coming from the factory. And
24 I'd given my handlers that details. We went into a phone
25 box in Hollywood in Northern Ireland. The RUC
26 technical-support people had gave us a recorder, and we
27 used it on the phone to record it, and they got the details
28 when I spoke to one of those people. So, at that stage,
29 then, my handlers got me PI status, which was Participating
30 Informant, to let me take part in a crime to get
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1 information and gather intelligence.
2 561 Q. When you say you took part in that crime, what did you do?
3 A. No, no, in that -- in the end of that, that crime never
4 came off, so, immediately after it, it came up with the
5 cheques from St. Brendan's. So the thing is, sometimes
6 when you get involved in a crime, sometimes something goes
7 wrong and it doesn't happen. That is not my fault and it's
8 not me giving wrong information. So these people then came
9 up, they had cheques from St. Brendan's, which is a
10 brewery, they make liquors and stuff, beer, and they had
11 access --
12 562 Q. Is that the 1.25-million cheque-fraud?
13 A. Yes, sir, that is that one.
14 563 Q. Tell us a bit about that?
15 A. Well, what they did is, these people with IRA connections,
16 they actually got the cheques -- a cleaner got the cheques
17 from the bottom of a box of cheques that went into a
18 computer. So they got the cheques, it was brought to
19 Marotta. And I told my handlers about that and they got
20 me, again, PI status to work and get the information on
21 that crime as it was taking place. They contacted the
22 Metropolitan Police in London. I was set up with a
23 contact, it was SO19, it was anti-terrorist people as well
24 because of the people involved in this crime, and they had
25 surveillance on the people and they were able to trace the
26 whole crime and stop the thing.
27 564 Q. Can I ask you, Mr. Keeley, is any of this fantasy?
28 A. No, sir, there is none of that fantasy. It's there, it's
29 on the record, sir.
30 565 Q. Is the £18-million computer VAT fraud in London, is that
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 103
1 fantasy?
2 A. No, sir, it's not fantasy. It's on the record, too, sir.
3 566 Q. And there were arrests and convictions over that, too?
4 A. There were arrests and convictions in all these --
5 567 Q. The May 1999 drug warehouse in Belgium, was that fantasy?
6 A. That is not fantasy. It involved agencies from within the
7 UK and Northern Ireland and from Belgium. We operated in
8 Belgium with all these different agencies.
9 568 Q. You were a participating informant in that, as well?
10 A. Yes, sir, Her Majesty's Government put up the cigarettes to
11 sell the smugglers. This was for an intelligence purpose.
12 So, in doing so, the operation involved me getting in with
13 the smugglers, selling the people the cigarettes and
14 getting the money. The money was given back to Her
15 Majesty's Government.
16 569 Q. Tell me, when you were out working for CID, were you ever
17 paid for failures?
18 A. No, sir, I didn't even get a retainer. So, with working
19 with CID, you didn't get a wage. It wasn't like working
20 for MI5 where you got a wage each week. With CID, you got
21 nothing.
22 570 Q. And did they pay you out in fantasy?
23 A. No, sir, they did not pay out in fantasy.
24 571 Q. Now, in relation to Viagra --
25 A. Yes.
26 572 Q. -- if you forgive me for bringing that up -- the Garda have
27 said that they have no record whatsoever of Witness 71 ever
28 passing that information on to the Garda. Tell us about
29 the Viagra, please?
30 A. In the Viagra case, Patrick Joseph Blair, 'Mooch' Blair,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 104
1 was working with -- he was a member of the Real IRA, and at
2 this stage they were looking to try to raise funds, and
3 everything else, and because of my background with 'Mooch',
4 the things we had done together, sir, with that knowledge
5 of my handlers, he said about the Viagra tablets, he could
6 get them, could I get a buyer. And, of course, I said yes,
7 I know a drug dealer in England, he would buy them. So I
8 went to my handlers and told my handlers about this and
9 they said to get a sample of the Viagra. So I went back to
10 Patrick Joseph Blair and said, I can get -- the going price
11 on the street was £10 a tablet, on the black-market.
12 573 Q. Now, you obviously don't know what your handler told the
13 Garda?
14 A. No, sir, I would not be privy to that.
15 574 Q. But can you see Witness 70 getting into his car and driving
16 -- sorry, 71, getting into his car and driving down to Cork
17 to find out if Pfizer are missing a few blue tablets?
18 A. I have no idea, but he would have been through all official
19 channels. That Officer 70, 70 and 71 did everything by the
20 book and all the i's would be dotted and the t's crossed.
21 575 Q. So when that officer says in his evidence that he supplied
22 a sample tablet and says, "I passed this to the Garda Fraud
23 Squad who subsequently confirmed that Pfizer was able to
24 identify it as one of their tablets not yet issued to the
25 market," when he says that, you'd trust him to be right?
26 A. Absolutely, sir, yes.
27 576 Q. And that was sometime after April 2000 --
28 A. Yes.
29 577 Q. -- when an article in a newspaper appeared about you?
30 A. Again, I am not sure on the dates, sir, but I know the
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 105
1 incidents with the Viagra tablets, and that.
2 578 Q. And he says that you supplied, "Keeley supplied information
3 relating to the theft of those Viagra tablets."
4 A. I don't know.
5 579 Q. Yes.
6 A. I don't know the article in the paper.
7 580 Q. Mr. Keeley, you have been called a fantasist, a liar,
8 delusional. Are you?
9 A. No, sir, I am not.
10 581 Q. Can you think of any way -- how you could make a few pounds
11 out of putting Owen Corrigan in the frame?
12 A. Absolutely not, sir. There would be no mileage in that
13 whatsoever, sir.
14 582 Q. Are you being paid anything to be here today?
15 A. No, sir, I am not.
16 583 Q. Because you are living in England, are you even compellable
17 as a witness here today?
18 A. No, sir, I am not compellable as a witness.
19 584 Q. Before you came across, did you think about not coming
20 across?
21 A. No, I didn't think about it. No, I came across. I was
22 walking into the unknown --
23 585 Q. And why did you come across?
24 A. Pardon?
25 586 Q. Why did you come across?
26 A. Because I had started something, sir, and I had to finish
27 it.
28 587 Q. Did you name any other garda in Dundalk as being an
29 informant?
30 A. No, sir.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 106
1 588 Q. Why are you so sure about Owen Corrigan?
2 A. Because of what I seen, sir.
3 589 Q. Are you lying about Owen Corrigan?
4 A. No, sir, I am not lying.
5 590 Q. Thank you. Sorry, yes, can I just ask if Mr. Mills -- what
6 would the IRA think about what you are doing here today?
7 A. They wouldn't be too happy, sir. I mean --
8 591 Q. Don't use a euphemism, now. What would the IRA think about
9 what you are doing here today?
10 A. It's treachery, sir. They would kill me for it.
11 592 Q. What is the price for treachery?
12 A. Death.
13 593 Q. And have you received death threats before?
14 A. Yes, sir, I have received a number of death threats, yeah.
15 594 Q. If Mr. Mills would put up the document which he was given,
16 on the screen.
17
18 MR. MILLS: I have no document.
19
20 MR. RAFFERTY: Sorry, I thought he had been given the
21 document.
22 (Document handed to the registrar)
23 Did you receive a letter from the IRA on the 27th of
24 February, 2001?
25 A. Yes.
26 595 Q. Is that the letter you received?
27 A. Yes, I haven't seen it in years. I don't even know where
28 you got it. Yes.
29 596 Q. For the record, it states: "27th of February, 2001.
30 You have been sentenced by Court Martial in your absence.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 107
1 You are charged, general order number 5, part 5, general
2 order number 11. On both charges you were found guilty.
3 The penalty for both charges is death. Sentence to be
4 carried out at our convenience.
5 Signed: P. O'Neill, Óglaigh na hÉireann."
6 Who is P. O'Neill?
7 A. P. O'Neill was a pseudonym used for the IRA. It's for
8 all -- in all their statements, they put P. O'Neill.
9 597 Q. They use P. O'Neill as the official title?
10 A. Of the IRA, yes.
11 MR. RAFFERTY: Thank you.
12
13 CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Laverty?
14
15 THE WITNESS WAS RE-EXAMINED BY MRS. LAVERTY AS FOLLOWS:
16
17 598 Q. MRS. LAVERTY: Two very short matters. Mr. Fulton, you
18 were cross-examined yesterday about an article that a
19 Mr. Henry McDonald published in September of this year. Do
20 you recall that?
21 A. Yes, I recall the thing yesterday, yes.
22 599 Q. Yes. And it was -- there was an excerpt from the article
23 put to you, quoting you and suggesting that you had said
24 that they were agents involved in the murders of Breen and
25 Buchanan, and you said yesterday that you completely deny
26 that?
27 A. Yes, well I never said that because I don't know who
28 actually shot them.
29 600 Q. Yes. Now, I think, in fairness, that -- have you seen that
30 article yourself, the Henry McDonald one?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 108
1 A. No. Just, the gentleman read it out to me.
2 601 Q. Yes. Well, just for your own assistance, it was a very
3 long article written about Ian Hurst and a statement that
4 he purportedly sent to this Tribunal and had published on
5 the Internet.
6 A. I haven't seen that.
7 602 Q. And that, is it possible that the journalist in question
8 may have attributed this statement relating to you, wrongly
9 to you, as against Mr. Hurst?
10 A. Well, it definitely never came from me, ma'am.
11 603 Q. Thank you. If I could -- just, again, a very quick matter.
12 The Omeath bomb factory, that was on the 28th of the 8th,
13 1989?
14 A. Yes.
15 604 Q. And you said that there was concern about fingerprints?
16 A. Yes, ma'am.
17 605 Q. I think that you had been arrested in the South for the
18 first time on the 30/6/'89, is that correct?
19 A. I can't remember the date, but I was only arrested once in
20 the Republic of Ireland, yes.
21 606 Q. And were your fingerprints on file then?
22 A. Yes, they were taken by Garda Tom Molloy, who was very
23 rough at taking my fingerprints. I will never forget it.
24 607 Q. Yes. And can you tell the Tribunal exactly what articles
25 in that find were you concerned that fingerprints would be
26 found on?
27 A. Everyone was concerned, because sometimes you wear gloves;
28 there is other tools you would touch and not really worry
29 about gloves, because we are only human.
30 608 Q. Specifically what --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 109
1 A. There would be grinders and tools, saws, and everything
2 else, that was in the place.
3 609 Q. So the grinder would be of significance?
4 A. Yes, yes, yes.
5 610 Q. Yes. And that -- would that have been one of the big
6 grinders that you described before?
7 A. It would be one of the big grinders. And the thing is,
8 when you are using those, rubber gloves have a tendency,
9 always, to rip. And inevitably, everywhere you go you will
10 leave fingerprints.
11 611 Q. So you would expect to find fingerprints primarily on the
12 grinder?
13 A. On the grinder and other tools and inside the building.
14 You would have thought, when the police would go in, they
15 would fingerprint the whole area, and any fingerprints they
16 get they would look at the people, you know.
17 612 Q. Yes.
18 A. And some of the people who were there are all well-known,
19 so they were.
20 613 Q. Thank you, because we want to just check that out a bit
21 further. Now, I presume that the fingerprints of all the
22 other people who participated in that bomb factory would
23 have been on file from earlier occasions --
24 A. I am sure they would be on file, North and possibly South
25 as well. Yes, they were all known IRA players --
26 614 Q. Yes.
27 A. -- who were actually on the run because of terrorist crimes
28 in Northern Ireland.
29 615 Q. I think that another matter that was referred to, that you
30 referred to, very briefly, in cross-examination yourself,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 110
1 was that, in response to one of the questions you were
2 being asked which referred to a criticism that Sir Ronnie
3 Flanagan had made of you, you mentioned the fact that your
4 handler -- an apology had been made to your handler?
5 A. Yes, ma'am.
6 616 Q. I think you said that yesterday. And because you weren't
7 there when your handler was giving evidence --
8 A. No.
9 617 Q. -- I can tell you that he referred to that on Day 65, page
10 108, and he confirmed that he had received a telephone call
11 from the Chief Constable, apologising for, effectively,
12 misinformation which he had been wrongly advised about you?
13 A. Yes, ma'am.
14 618 Q. Would appear to be the content of it.
15 Thank you very much, Mr. Fulton.
16
17 CHAIRMAN: Well, now, I think that concludes the evidence
18 of Mr. Fulton. Does anybody -- nobody else indicated they
19 wanted to ask questions. So I think we can let him go now,
20 is that so, Mrs. Laverty?
21
22 MRS. LAVERTY: Yes, Chairman.
23
24 CHAIRMAN: Very well. I am very grateful for your help and
25 assistance to the Tribunal's work. Thank you very much.
26 A. Thank you, sir.
27
28 THE WITNESS THEN WITHDREW.
29
30 CHAIRMAN: Well, now, I think the screen can be moved.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 111
1
2 MRS. LAVERTY: Chairman, the next date we are sitting is on
3 the 9th of January at 11 o'clock.
4
5 CHAIRMAN: Yes. There was a proposal, it was the intention
6 that, next Tuesday, we would sit to hear further evidence,
7 but the two witnesses who were planned for that day can't
8 attend. We won't, therefore, be sitting. The next day
9 will be Tuesday [sic] the 9th of January at 11 o'clock.
10
11 MRS. LAVERTY: I think it's the 10th of January, actually.
12
13 CHAIRMAN: The 10th of January at 11 o'clock. In the
14 intervening period --
15
16 MRS. LAVERTY: Sorry, I am instructed by my solicitor that
17 we are sitting, actually, on the Monday, which is the 9th.
18
19 CHAIRMAN: Oh, Monday, the 9th. It is, yes. I beg your
20 pardon. Monday, the 9th of January. Forgive my confusion
21 about that. Well, it occurs during the intervening period
22 the church holy day of Christmas. I had hoped that I might
23 be able to devise some witnesses to have the hearing that
24 day, but we won't be able to, so I wish you all a very
25 happy Christmas and best wishes for the new year.
26
27 MR. McGUINNESS: Chairman, on my own behalf and on behalf
28 of the Commissioner's legal team and the Commissioner
29 himself, we wish you a very happy Christmas, too, and see
30 you in the new year.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 112
1
2 MR. O'CALLAGHAN: I suppose, since Mr. McGuinness has been
3 so sycophantic, I should follow as well, Chairman, on
4 behalf of Mr. Corrigan, to wish you a very happy and
5 prosperous --
6
7 CHAIRMAN: Quite unnecessary, but thank you very much.
8
9 MRS. LAVERTY: Should I respond on behalf of the
10 bridesmaids?
11
12 THE TRIBUNAL THEN ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, THE 9TH OF
13 JANUARY, 2012, AT 11 A.M. 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 1
' 2 9th [5] - 111:3, 111:9, afraid [2] - 47:13, 63:30 59:18, 59:22 111:17, 111:19, 111:20 AFTER [1] - 74:1 Answer [7] - 94:11, '89 [1] - 3:4 20 [2] - 28:24, 56:18 afternoon [5] - 72:10, 94:16, 94:19, 94:21, '90 [1] - 97:17 2000 [2] - 69:15, 104:27 A 74:3, 80:20, 86:22, 95:25, 96:14, 96:18 '91 [3] - 4:3, 5:15, 97:17 2001 [2] - 106:24, 106:29 90:11 answered [1] - 59:15 A.M [1] - 112:13 '92 [1] - 11:3 2002 [1] - 29:5 agencies [3] - 32:1, answering [1] - 59:20 Aaron [1] - 76:22 '94 [2] - 11:3, 11:16 2003 [3] - 35:30, 37:5, 103:6, 103:8 answers [1] - 87:26 abandoned [1] - 91:12 '96 [2] - 11:16, 100:21 38:1 agency [3] - 24:27, 49:8, anti [3] - 25:21, 80:5, '97 [2] - 12:3, 12:16 2004 [1] - 29:25 abducted [1] - 67:15 52:4 102:23 '98 [1] - 16:7 2005 [2] - 42:18, 42:24 abduction [1] - 85:14 agent [9] - 12:18, 17:14, anti-republican [1] - 80:5 'Crypto' [1] - 97:4 2006 [2] - 28:1, 48:4 able [12] - 15:14, 18:27, 23:18, 24:13, 25:18, anti-terrorist [2] - 25:21, 'explosive [1] - 38:22 2007 [1] - 54:19 31:27, 47:9, 51:19, 25:20, 39:19, 43:23, 102:23 70:4, 71:1, 83:23, 'for [1] - 43:29 2008 [2] - 32:9, 53:4 87:10 anyhow [2] - 47:21, 51:10 102:25, 104:23, 111:23, 'Mooch' [30] - 7:14, 2011 [2] - 1:1, 61:25 agents [2] - 60:30, 107:24 apologising [1] - 110:11 111:24 21:12, 22:13, 22:23, 2012 [1] - 112:13 aggrieved [3] - 52:10, apology [1] - 110:4 absence [1] - 106:30 25:5, 25:17, 36:21, 20th [2] - 2:14, 80:11 52:14, 52:16 apparent [1] - 72:17 absolute [2] - 42:8, 47:11 63:25, 68:20, 78:5, 21st [1] - 28:1 agitated [1] - 92:16 appear [8] - 32:8, 33:3, absolutely [23] - 3:25, 81:7, 82:22, 84:17, 27th [2] - 106:23, 106:29 ago [7] - 46:14, 46:27, 33:26, 55:17, 58:11, 12:1, 15:3, 16:21, 84:30, 85:17, 85:19, 28th [5] - 3:18, 4:5, 4:13, 49:5, 50:4, 50:5, 51:21, 76:21, 86:23, 110:14 20:11, 28:13, 35:1, 89:5, 89:9, 90:13, 50:7, 108:12 53:8 appeared [4] - 27:23, 35:12, 40:21, 41:2, 90:17, 90:19, 91:3, 29th [1] - 97:15 agree [17] - 36:20, 42:23, 27:24, 95:26, 104:29 42:11, 45:6, 53:26, 91:24, 92:1, 92:5, 92:6, 42:27, 43:2, 43:7, application [5] - 72:15, 61:24, 63:21, 70:14, 94:14, 103:30, 104:3 43:10, 48:13, 48:16, 74:6, 74:9, 74:16, 74:30 3 71:11, 78:14, 81:29, 'Mooch's' [1] - 81:6 48:19, 48:23, 51:5, appreciate [3] - 3:3, 94:4, 95:5, 104:26, 'on [1] - 95:28 30/6/'89 [1] - 108:18 51:7, 67:22, 68:1, 33:26, 42:23 105:12 'reports [4] - 90:25, 70:26, 81:17, 89:21 approach [1] - 60:2 Absolutely [1] - 31:19 90:26, 91:20, 91:29 4 agreed [3] - 2:29, 7:3, approached [2] - 39:13, accents [1] - 6:9 'Saoirse32 [1] - 96:27 14:15 39:14 4 [1] - 37:30 accept [4] - 36:22, 36:30, 'Scap' [4] - 21:29, 22:22, agreement [2] - 10:26, appropriate [1] - 72:28 40-foot [1] - 101:23 51:8, 51:29 64:9, 88:8 17:27 April [2] - 29:5, 104:27 48 [3] - 31:17, 86:7, 86:11 accepting [1] - 44:21 'Slab' [5] - 87:18, 87:20, Agriculture [1] - 31:3 archives [1] - 96:27 accepts [1] - 51:30 87:22, 88:30, 89:1 ahead [8] - 26:7, 42:9, area [9] - 79:25, 89:12, 5 access [2] - 15:12, 'Steak [2] - 35:27, 35:29 46:6, 51:15, 51:25, 91:28, 92:17, 99:6, 102:11 'The [1] - 90:10 5 [2] - 107:1 66:2, 69:20, 99:6 99:8, 109:15 accommodation [1] - 51-year-old [1] - 97:2 ahead.. [1] - 51:20 arm [1] - 96:7 85:12 1 Airport [1] - 31:11 Armagh [2] - 19:23, 89:2 account [1] - 95:26 Alex [2] - 27:27, 27:28 armed [1] - 83:24 1.25-million [1] - 102:12 6 accumulate [1] - 19:16 alive [1] - 57:5 army [13] - 6:25, 7:29, 100 [1] - 95:10 accurately [1] - 10:8 64 [11] - 92:25, 92:28, allegation [2] - 13:1, 30:1 8:4, 10:22, 11:12, 108 [1] - 110:10 accusations [1] - 96:30 92:29, 92:30, 93:14, allegations [2] - 32:29, 11:21, 15:16, 15:20, 10th [2] - 111:11, 111:13 93:17, 93:19, 93:24, acknowledge [1] - 100:5 88:18 27:14, 43:21, 84:7, 11 [5] - 107:2, 111:3, 93:27, 97:30, 98:2 acquaintance [1] - 97:10 allegations' [1] - 97:7 84:11, 92:15 111:9, 111:13, 112:13 acquired [1] - 66:4 65 [1] - 110:9 allege [3] - 78:22, 84:23, Army [6] - 26:3, 83:6, 13 [1] - 42:18 67 [1] - 7:13 action [6] - 32:10, 41:14, 84:25 84:26, 84:27, 84:29, 15 [1] - 28:24 6th [1] - 32:9 45:15, 45:16, 45:17, alleged [3] - 17:25, 17:26, 89:1 15th [1] - 54:19 46:7 78:21 arrange [2] - 40:3, 101:22 16TH [1] - 1:1 actions [1] - 55:7 7 allegedly [3] - 30:20, arranged [4] - 2:27, 16th [2] - 95:28, 95:30 active [4] - 49:7, 75:20, 46:23, 93:2 26:23, 31:6, 100:3 17th [1] - 53:4 70 [11] - 12:25, 12:26, 88:14, 89:12 allow [1] - 49:4 arrangements [2] - 52:16, 17:19, 92:13, 95:23, 18th [1] - 29:5 Active [1] - 97:12 allowance [1] - 85:12 72:9 1975 [1] - 84:13 100:24, 104:15, 104:19 actively [1] - 88:13 allowed [5] - 25:15, 43:6, arrest [1] - 24:25 1979 [3] - 84:8, 84:11, 71 [13] - 12:3, 12:5, 12:22, activists [1] - 80:5 55:27, 57:2, 101:11 arrested [21] - 17:2, 17:20, 24:29, 66:14, 84:26 activities [1] - 88:16 almost [1] - 80:22 17:23, 22:15, 22:20, 66:15, 100:23, 100:24, 1982 [1] - 84:13 activity [2] - 14:28, 64:25 America [3] - 28:14, 22:30, 23:13, 23:14, 103:27, 104:16, 104:19 1985 [1] - 32:16 actual [5] - 3:1, 9:18, 87:12, 100:1 25:24, 42:5, 54:11, 1987 [1] - 1:18 35:28, 58:28, 70:20 8 American [1] - 28:4 54:15, 59:3, 60:11, 1989 [8] - 2:14, 3:19, adapted [1] - 43:27 Amsterdam [1] - 32:1 60:29, 77:18, 87:11, 3:29, 4:5, 4:13, 15:28, added [1] - 61:26 8 [1] - 64:30 analyse [1] - 88:2 90:29, 100:19, 108:17, 19:12, 108:13 additional [3] - 72:23, 849 [1] - 7:13 analyser [2] - 87:14, 108:19 1990 [1] - 96:13 75:14, 75:25 8th [1] - 108:12 88:10 arrests [3] - 87:9, 103:3, 1990s [1] - 97:8 ADJOURNED [2] - 73:11, animosity [1] - 55:24 103:4 1991 [6] - 2:30, 4:29, 6:5, 112:12 9 annoyed [1] - 92:16 art [34] - 37:4, 37:6, 37:7, 95:29, 95:30, 97:15 advance [2] - 75:19, annoying [1] - 90:8 37:10, 37:14, 37:18, [1] 1992 - 7:23 939 [2] - 16:5, 16:12 94:14 anonymous [6] - 35:22, 37:23, 38:9, 38:23, 1994 [8] - 62:11, 62:18, 949 [1] - 17:5 advice [1] - 46:7 37:2, 43:15, 43:16, 38:24, 39:1, 39:2, 39:3, 68:6, 68:16, 68:21, 953 [1] - 24:9 advised [2] - 12:8, 110:12 48:9, 48:10 39:6, 39:21, 39:22, 68:24, 69:11, 71:16 9mm [1] - 90:1 Affairs [1] - 26:13 answer [8] - 16:23, 17:5, 40:10, 40:19, 40:20, 1999 [2] - 27:20, 103:5 9TH [1] - 112:12 affect [1] - 55:12 36:13, 36:19, 43:2, 40:22, 40:24, 40:25,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 2
40:26, 40:27, 41:3, 35:20, 42:28, 44:8, 80:26, 81:3, 81:12, Bramblewood [1] - 98:28 9:7, 9:8, 9:9 41:17, 41:20, 41:27, 104:3 81:18, 81:19, 81:21, Branch [24] - 6:25, 6:29, canvass [4] - 38:24, 42:10, 42:13, 42:19, bad [2] - 36:21, 91:1 81:27, 81:30, 82:2, 6:30, 10:17, 10:18, 40:12, 41:21, 41:28 43:22, 44:16, 44:18 balloon [1] - 17:22 82:23, 84:3, 84:12, 10:22, 10:24, 10:25, capacity [1] - 14:11 art' [1] - 38:22 bare [1] - 50:21 84:17, 84:23, 84:28, 10:27, 10:29, 11:3, car [26] - 8:29, 9:7, 21:16, art.com [1] - 42:20 bare-bones [1] - 50:21 84:30, 85:2, 85:16, 11:8, 11:10, 11:13, 76:27, 77:3, 77:9, article [9] - 43:20, 44:28, bars [1] - 63:24 85:17, 85:21, 85:22, 12:9, 26:23, 30:17, 77:24, 77:27, 77:28, 97:15, 104:29, 105:6, based [9] - 16:15, 43:22, 85:27, 86:4, 86:6, 30:18, 92:12, 92:15, 78:6, 78:24, 78:29, 107:18, 107:22, 107:30, 55:24, 75:24, 88:12, 86:13, 89:6, 89:9, 92:1, 93:28, 97:29, 97:30, 78:30, 79:6, 80:4, 80:6, 108:3 88:13, 92:25, 93:4, 93:5 92:5, 94:15, 103:30, 100:5 82:4, 82:13, 90:12, articles [4] - 47:11, 49:28, basis [4] - 19:26, 29:21, 104:10 branded [1] - 97:28 91:5, 91:8, 91:12, 94:12, 108:24 74:11 Blair's [3] - 80:14, 80:24, brave [1] - 91:17 98:21, 104:15, 104:16 artistic [3] - 38:30, 39:5, BE [1] - 1:10 82:3 breach [5] - 45:23, 45:28, care [3] - 27:9, 28:19, 39:6 beauty [1] - 48:12 blister [1] - 25:7 46:2, 46:11, 48:30 85:13 artists [1] - 42:16 became [4] - 5:14, 35:25, blister-pack [1] - 25:7 break [2] - 3:30, 5:11 career [6] - 3:27, 7:8, AS [7] - 1:2, 1:11, 34:2, 75:16, 92:15 blowing [1] - 100:4 breaking [1] - 50:26 18:5, 28:7, 97:27, 97:29 74:1, 76:18, 86:28, become [2] - 35:22, 72:16 blown [1] - 82:21 Breen [2] - 3:6, 107:24 carousel [1] - 30:24 107:15 becomes [1] - 93:29 blue [1] - 104:17 Brendan's [4] - 18:26, Carrickhill [2] - 96:28, ascertain [2] - 14:4, 64:22 bed [1] - 101:2 Bob [2] - 5:22 18:28, 102:5, 102:9 96:29 aspect [1] - 93:9 beer [2] - 9:13, 102:10 bomb [17] - 8:27, 9:11, brewery [1] - 102:10 Carrickmacross [1] - aspects [1] - 92:22 beg [1] - 111:19 9:14, 23:28, 24:5, bridesmaids [1] - 112:10 79:5 assassinate [1] - 95:22 begin [1] - 1:5 33:11, 40:22, 40:23, brief [2] - 6:27, 10:29 carried [1] - 107:4 assault [1] - 55:21 beginning [1] - 7:12 82:4, 82:10, 82:23, briefly [2] - 98:5, 109:30 case [17] - 5:10, 13:26, assessing [1] - 69:22 behalf [7] - 72:16, 77:30, 83:1, 86:12, 99:3, bring [9] - 6:29, 6:30, 8:3, 28:23, 28:24, 57:6, assessment [1] - 89:21 86:23, 111:27, 112:4, 99:10, 108:12, 109:22 10:22, 10:27, 19:25, 61:14, 62:23, 63:12, assigned [1] - 72:23 112:9 bombing [11] - 83:21, 36:10, 54:30, 95:15 63:13, 63:15, 69:10, assist [2] - 69:21, 70:30 behind [1] - 9:27 84:5, 84:6, 85:27, bringing [2] - 8:24, 69:19, 72:1, 72:23, 85:30, 86:1, 86:2, 86:3, assistance [6] - 3:6, 10:1, beholder [1] - 39:1 103:26 78:27, 90:13, 103:30 86:7, 86:9, 91:25 10:3, 29:7, 108:2, Belfast [7] - 21:14, 23:11, Britain [1] - 32:19 cash [2] - 47:17, 47:23 110:25 49:6, 53:17, 64:8, bombings [1] - 89:13 British [17] - 2:26, 29:8, cash-in [2] - 47:17, 47:23 associated [1] - 85:1 64:15, 91:28 bombs [16] - 7:14, 8:14, 60:16, 60:29, 83:6, cashing [1] - 47:18 9:15, 40:7, 42:3, 42:4, assumed [1] - 14:19 Belgium [3] - 103:5, 83:8, 83:11, 83:24, cashing-in [1] - 47:18 AT [1] - 112:13 103:7, 103:8 42:5, 43:27, 81:19, 84:7, 84:26, 84:27, Castleblayney [1] - 79:9 81:23, 81:28, 81:30, atrocities [1] - 83:8 benzene [1] - 8:9 84:29, 87:10, 96:8, Castlerea [1] - 59:4 82:2, 82:3 attack [13] - 55:24, 59:5, Berlin [1] - 27:1 96:28, 97:4, 97:12 catch [1] - 5:30 bones [1] - 50:21 83:12, 83:29, 83:30, beside [2] - 9:25, 40:29 broke [1] - 97:11 catches [1] - 100:20 booby [2] - 82:4, 82:10 84:15, 89:29, 98:9, best [3] - 20:5, 20:6, Brothers [2] - 44:27, categorically [1] - 97:6 98:13, 98:14, 98:15, 111:25 booby-trap [2] - 82:4, 46:25 caught [4] - 22:20, 60:28, 82:10 99:3, 99:5 better [1] - 59:15 brought [10] - 5:9, 5:10, 64:7, 99:9 book [27] - 48:4, 48:5, attempt [1] - 71:9 between [10] - 4:6, 4:23, 6:18, 6:19, 6:23, 8:1, caused [4] - 22:3, 53:27, 48:6, 48:7, 65:25, attempted [1] - 89:10 14:20, 32:17, 79:13, 68:25, 99:15, 100:2, 68:8, 93:15 65:27, 65:28, 65:30, attempts [1] - 97:2 79:18, 79:22, 79:26, 102:18 cave [1] - 42:30 66:2, 66:3, 66:10, 67:2, attend [1] - 111:8 84:13, 100:1 Browning [1] - 90:1 CB [1] - 16:1 67:4, 67:5, 67:13, attendance [1] - 74:10 big [9] - 2:22, 9:15, 15:30, Brussels [2] - 31:13, celebrity [1] - 35:11 67:23, 67:25, 67:30, attention [2] - 71:5, 71:6 25:4, 28:21, 44:19, 31:14 central [1] - 75:16 68:2, 68:3, 68:4, 68:13, attributed [1] - 108:8 51:27, 109:5, 109:7 Buchanan [2] - 3:6, Centre [1] - 59:4 68:27, 69:4, 69:8, audiotape [1] - 87:30 bigger [1] - 71:13 107:25 centre [1] - 72:17 104:20 August [6] - 3:18, 3:29, biggest [4] - 83:7, 83:8, budget [1] - 11:14 certain [7] - 9:1, 25:30, booked [3] - 1:17, 81:3, 4:5, 4:13, 12:2, 84:8 83:11, 100:18 build [1] - 43:27 36:25, 64:7, 72:19, 81:13 authorities [6] - 2:7, 14:5, bill [1] - 31:22 builder's [1] - 82:22 91:1, 98:24 bookies [1] - 80:28 14:6, 18:7, 29:9, 74:28 bill-heads [1] - 31:22 building [2] - 98:12, certainly [4] - 11:26, booking [1] - 81:4 available [2] - 28:15, bit [6] - 19:12, 35:11, 109:13 15:27, 72:9, 86:26 books [2] - 19:21, 66:29 97:23 55:27, 81:24, 102:14, built [2] - 8:5, 90:16 chain [1] - 88:29 booster [1] - 9:14 avenues [1] - 24:7 109:20 bunker [1] - 8:5 Chair [1] - 75:19 border [3] - 9:26, 10:4, aware [23] - 10:25, 15:10, bits [3] - 44:17, 51:23, business [2] - 81:22 Chairman [26] - 16:19, 15:10 19:2, 19:7, 19:9, 30:13, 51:24 but.. [1] - 93:23 30:4, 30:16, 30:29, bosses [1] - 27:3 32:16, 33:5, 33:7, 52:2, black [1] - 104:11 Butchers' [1] - 90:10 51:3, 55:4, 55:5, 55:15, botched [1] - 54:12 53:4, 53:16, 55:18, black-market [1] - 104:11 buy [2] - 30:25, 104:7 56:2, 57:8, 57:13, bottle [2] - 9:11, 9:12 56:19, 61:25, 78:10, Blackburn [1] - 90:16 buyer [1] - 104:6 57:25, 59:25, 64:13, bottom [3] - 18:30, 93:12, 78:15, 78:18, 84:12, Blackwater [1] - 90:15 BY [5] - 1:10, 34:2, 76:18, 65:17, 71:20, 71:24, 102:17 94:9, 94:12, 95:21, 98:1 Blair [59] - 1:16, 7:14, 86:28, 107:15 72:7, 74:7, 94:28, bout [1] - 70:10 awful [1] - 61:24 23:22, 36:21, 65:1, 95:11, 97:22, 110:22, 76:21, 76:23, 77:4, box [8] - 9:16, 17:20, C 111:2, 111:27, 112:3 B 77:6, 77:9, 77:14, 18:30, 82:10, 82:12, CHAIRMAN [65] - 1:4, C-searcher [1] - 82:11 77:16, 77:23, 78:3, 90:7, 101:25, 102:17 5:30, 6:13, 6:18, 6:21, baby [1] - 27:1 78:5, 78:7, 78:8, 78:10, boy [1] - 100:26 Callan's [4] - 4:7, 4:24, 7:6, 16:25, 16:29, baby-sitting [1] - 27:1 78:13, 78:15, 78:18, braggart [1] - 89:18 78:22, 78:27 33:30, 55:30, 56:7, background [5] - 35:19, 78:23, 78:29, 80:18, brainchild [1] - 43:24 camera [5] - 8:29, 9:2, 56:14, 56:25, 57:11,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 3
57:21, 57:29, 58:4, 58:2, 58:4, 58:7, 58:14, 111:28 construction [1] - 96:11 Council [1] - 89:2 58:9, 58:16, 58:20, 58:23, 58:26, 58:27, committed [1] - 89:13 consulted [1] - 93:21 counsel [9] - 56:25, 57:3, 59:12, 59:17, 59:22, 58:28, 59:2, 59:23, communicating [1] - contact [6] - 32:15, 72:23, 73:7, 74:7, 59:30, 60:7, 60:10, 61:11, 61:14, 61:16, 15:26 53:10, 53:11, 58:25, 74:16, 74:17, 75:25, 60:14, 60:19, 60:22, 61:17, 61:23, 61:27, communications [2] - 76:29, 102:23 76:5 60:25, 61:3, 61:30, 62:18, 64:14 15:30, 88:1 contacted [4] - 2:23, counsel.. [1] - 75:29 62:4, 64:19, 65:8, claimed [1] - 96:10 Company [1] - 76:22 13:11, 13:15, 102:21 counted [1] - 49:3 65:14, 65:19, 67:7, claiming [7] - 45:23, company [7] - 18:28, contacts [2] - 30:20, counter [1] - 100:3 71:22, 71:26, 72:1, 45:28, 46:5, 46:28, 28:21, 31:23, 31:26, 101:3 counter-measures [1] - 72:12, 72:25, 73:2, 47:2, 48:30, 62:7 46:19, 46:21, 96:11 container [2] - 30:27, 100:3 73:6, 74:3, 74:20, claims [3] - 96:28, 96:29, compellable [2] - 105:16, 101:23 countries [1] - 30:26 74:26, 75:12, 75:22, 97:3 105:18 containers [2] - 30:25, country [2] - 27:29, 68:9 76:3, 76:13, 86:20, clash [1] - 100:7 compelled [1] - 75:5 31:30 couple [2] - 3:4, 101:20 97:25, 101:14, 101:17, class [1] - 39:2 compensation [3] - content [1] - 110:14 course [15] - 9:23, 12:18, 101:20, 107:13, 110:17, classed [2] - 11:12, 22:8 45:19, 45:25, 45:26 context [1] - 36:8 12:21, 14:25, 16:3, 110:24, 110:30, 111:5, clean [1] - 83:27 complained [1] - 49:5 continue [5] - 58:20, 17:5, 18:15, 18:23, 111:13, 111:19, 112:7 cleaned [1] - 4:14 complaints [1] - 88:23 65:14, 65:19, 72:2, 32:26, 45:25, 52:21, challenge [2] - 35:24, cleaner [2] - 99:17, complete [3] - 23:13, 75:28 53:11, 54:10, 57:18, 52:12 102:16 78:14, 78:26 CONTINUED [2] - 1:10, 104:6 chance [2] - 8:26, 90:17 clear [5] - 20:22, 44:4, completely [3] - 86:13, 74:1 court [2] - 98:12, 99:15 change [4] - 5:3, 5:8, 61:10, 70:25, 92:19 97:13, 107:25 contract [1] - 52:15 Court [3] - 53:17, 61:10, 48:2, 67:1 clearly [4] - 24:18, 50:27, complex [1] - 96:6 contradict [1] - 78:8 106:30 changed [1] - 5:4 55:23, 70:21 computer [9] - 18:23, contradicts [1] - 78:7 Courthouse [1] - 98:10 channel [1] - 83:5 client [21] - 14:17, 34:29, 18:24, 100:26, 101:4, contrary [2] - 44:7, 95:4 courthouse [1] - 98:16 channels [1] - 104:19 35:26, 36:10, 55:13, 101:5, 101:7, 102:18, control [9] - 7:2, 25:23, courts [4] - 35:24, 52:25, charge [3] - 9:14, 50:14, 55:19, 56:3, 56:7, 102:30 33:24, 45:6, 46:1, 47:9, 53:3, 88:23 93:2 57:26, 64:23, 66:28, concentrate [3] - 56:14, 47:12, 67:2, 67:12 cousins [1] - 11:14 charged [2] - 17:2, 107:1 69:29, 70:2, 70:5, 71:2, 56:27, 57:22 controversial [1] - 97:4 covered [1] - 33:11 charges [2] - 107:2, 107:3 74:13, 74:14, 74:20, concern [3] - 32:25, convenience [1] - 107:4 covert [1] - 99:7 chased [1] - 96:6 74:26, 84:2, 85:2 50:29, 108:15 conversation [6] - 1:23, cows [1] - 9:5 chat [1] - 19:17 clients [2] - 52:13, 52:19 concerned [9] - 2:13, 27:30, 30:30, 70:12, Coyle [1] - 99:12 check [3] - 4:21, 27:5, close [3] - 25:23, 28:22, 49:26, 50:19, 56:4, 70:19, 71:3 cream [1] - 90:11 109:20 57:25 64:29, 69:16, 76:6, conversations [8] - 16:6, credibility [1] - 69:22 checked [1] - 89:27 closing [1] - 57:4 108:25, 108:27 16:8, 17:8, 17:16, credible [1] - 69:16 checkpoint [1] - 89:30 coal [1] - 39:4 concerning [3] - 33:6, 17:28, 18:1, 18:16, 84:3 credit [2] - 35:5, 35:7 checks [1] - 25:11 code [2] - 99:29, 99:30 33:12, 71:15 convicted [6] - 17:2, crier [1] - 76:13 cheque [1] - 102:12 coded [4] - 15:17, 99:26, concisely [1] - 4:12 66:24, 66:26, 80:3 crime [7] - 101:30, 102:2, cheque-fraud [1] - 99:28 concluded [1] - 25:12 conviction [1] - 89:10 102:3, 102:6, 102:21, 102:12 codes [2] - 15:22, 16:3 concludes [1] - 110:17 convictions [3] - 66:30, 102:24, 102:26 cheques [8] - 18:28, coffee [6] - 40:6, 42:2, conclusion [3] - 24:25, 103:3, 103:4 crimes [2] - 92:21, 109:27 18:29, 102:5, 102:9, 42:4, 43:26, 44:30 25:17, 25:19 Cooley [2] - 8:2, 8:3 criminal [5] - 24:30, 25:3, 102:16, 102:17, 102:18 coffee-jar [4] - 40:6, 42:2, conduct [1] - 57:17 cooperation [1] - 32:17 25:20, 64:24, 66:30 chief [1] - 87:28 42:4 confidential [4] - 76:25, coordinates [2] - 10:7, criticism [1] - 110:2 Chief [2] - 11:2, 110:11 coin [1] - 90:7 78:3, 78:11, 78:16 10:8 cross [10] - 55:9, 57:17, chips [4] - 100:27, 101:4, cold [1] - 19:27 confines [1] - 50:20 copies [1] - 97:22 57:23, 75:28, 76:1, 101:7 colleagues [4] - 78:12, confirm [1] - 92:11 copy [1] - 49:9 76:5, 92:23, 95:14, Christmas [3] - 111:22, 78:17 confirmed [3] - 97:30, copyright [13] - 45:24, 107:18, 109:30 111:25, 111:29 Colleen [4] - 7:21, 93:16, 104:23, 110:10 45:28, 46:2, 46:3, CROSS [4] - 1:10, 34:2, church [1] - 111:22 94:9, 99:25 confusion [1] - 111:20 46:11, 47:3, 48:30, 76:18, 86:28 CID [7] - 16:13, 48:19, Collins [7] - 90:24, 90:27, connected [2] - 88:28, 49:8, 49:13, 49:14, cross-examination [6] - 92:13, 100:21, 103:16, 90:28, 91:16, 91:17, 89:14 50:9, 50:14, 50:22 55:9, 57:17, 57:23, 103:19, 103:20 92:1, 92:5 connection [1] - 87:24 Cork [1] - 104:16 76:1, 92:23, 109:30 cigarette [1] - 88:1 Collins's [1] - 81:6 connections [2] - 101:9, correct [9] - 7:17, 7:22, cross-examine [2] - cigarettes [2] - 103:10, Collins.. [1] - 65:1 102:15 12:5, 12:24, 50:18, 75:28, 76:5 103:13 collusion [3] - 13:1, 13:7, connector [1] - 82:17 57:22, 63:22, 96:12, cross-examined [2] - cipher [2] - 90:12, 92:26 29:13 consequences [1] - 108:18 95:14, 107:18 circulation [1] - 25:14 coming [10] - 23:27, 32:4, 55:26 Corrigan [24] - 1:21, 2:10, CROSS-EXAMINED [4] - circumstances [1] - 91:24, 91:26, 91:27, consider [1] - 5:23 3:5, 4:14, 13:1, 29:12, 1:10, 34:2, 76:18, 86:28 63:19 100:15, 100:19, 101:23, consideration [2] - 74:23, 76:24, 77:4, 77:7, 77:9, crossed [1] - 104:20 circumstantial [1] - 22:8 105:19 75:20 77:17, 77:25, 77:29, Crossmaglen [4] - 79:13, cities [1] - 48:12 Coming [4] - 90:25, considered [2] - 52:4, 78:2, 78:24, 78:25, 79:19, 79:25, 89:2 civil [1] - 29:3 90:26, 91:20, 91:29 81:13 78:28, 83:19, 83:27, cryer [1] - 76:8 civilians [1] - 8:16 commanding [1] - 89:15 Constable [2] - 11:2, 105:11, 106:1, 106:3, crying [1] - 90:18 claim [33] - 29:8, 52:4, comment [3] - 9:22, 110:11 112:4 Customs [18] - 11:16, 52:6, 53:16, 53:25, 92:14, 94:22 constantly [1] - 18:25 Corrigan's [1] - 76:29 11:19, 11:24, 12:2, 53:28, 53:29, 54:1, Commissioner [1] - constraint [1] - 59:14 Cory [3] - 13:5, 13:22, 12:6, 30:11, 30:19, 54:3, 54:6, 54:7, 54:27, 111:28 constraints [1] - 55:10 14:16 30:24, 31:6, 31:8, 55:2, 57:26, 57:30, Commissioner's [1] - constructed [1] - 64:16 costs [1] - 52:20 31:12, 31:13, 31:20,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 4
31:24, 31:27, 100:11, Derryard [1] - 89:29 7:9, 9:13, 11:22, 12:1, duty [3] - 30:27, 85:13, 97:16, 97:19 100:16 describe [1] - 79:4 17:18, 18:3, 22:19, 89:11 evacuated [1] - 99:1 Céilí [3] - 78:22, 78:27, described [3] - 81:11, 25:24, 26:2, 28:28, evening [4] - 34:21, 79:3 90:22, 109:6 31:9, 31:25, 33:15, E 80:29, 82:9, 82:20 description [1] - 7:7 35:8, 40:21, 49:29, event [2] - 53:16, 56:26 e-mail [2] - 50:29, 61:5 D deserve [1] - 35:6 50:23, 53:3, 54:23, events [1] - 32:27 e-mailed [1] - 50:7 desperate [2] - 71:5, 71:6 60:27, 75:2, 81:7, everywhere [1] - 109:9 daily [8] - 29:21, 53:11, e-mails [1] - 46:26 destroyed [2] - 33:7, 85:18, 88:15, 88:19, evidence [37] - 18:3, 53:23, 53:24, 58:25, 33:14 93:29, 93:30, 104:4 early [1] - 101:1 22:8, 34:9, 57:15, 62:14, 62:15, 74:11 easier [1] - 7:4 detail [4] - 1:15, 69:21, Donie [1] - 66:22 57:23, 65:10, 65:12, dangerous [1] - 28:24 89:25, 89:28 Donna [1] - 66:22 easy [2] - 70:12, 70:16 67:14, 71:14, 74:12, date [18] - 3:1, 3:2, 3:18, eating [1] - 90:11 details [7] - 3:26, 37:22, doodlebug [1] - 40:23 74:13, 74:20, 75:4, 6:22, 7:20, 26:10, 89:26, 92:10, 95:11, door [3] - 28:22, 76:7, Edenappa [1] - 20:19 75:10, 75:13, 75:24, 26:18, 27:22, 29:6, 101:24, 101:27 76:14 editor [3] - 25:30, 26:21, 76:23, 77:14, 77:16, 36:3, 42:25, 54:20, detective [1] - 92:18 dotted [1] - 104:20 26:26 78:10, 81:2, 81:10, 85:23, 95:29, 97:14, Detective [3] - 20:24, double [1] - 39:19 editorial [3] - 47:12, 67:2, 83:19, 83:26, 84:28, 97:20, 108:19, 111:2 32:29, 80:4 down [41] - 1:27, 3:14, 67:12 85:14, 85:28, 86:15, dates [4] - 26:19, 96:14, devastated [2] - 96:28, 4:20, 4:27, 5:20, 5:23, effectively [2] - 72:21, 87:1, 89:17, 93:9, 94:7, 96:15, 104:30 96:30 7:6, 8:11, 8:18, 8:24, 110:11 95:4, 104:21, 110:7, days [5] - 2:4, 15:19, developed [1] - 82:2 8:27, 8:29, 9:19, 10:5, eighties [3] - 21:24, 64:6 110:17, 111:6 80:17, 80:22, 99:8 developing [1] - 81:23 11:27, 16:22, 16:26, Eileen [1] - 80:25 evidently [1] - 67:8 de [6] - 15:18 developments [1] - 99:24 20:21, 21:11, 22:18, either [7] - 14:8, 22:20, ex [3] - 57:30, 59:23, de-de-de-de-de-de [1] - 33:8, 33:19, 56:29, device [3] - 8:22, 17:24, 22:21, 26:24, 29:23, 61:21 15:18 43:30 30:4, 30:6, 30:19, 32:1, 57:4, 69:8 ex-wife [2] - 57:30, 61:21 dead [2] - 90:1, 91:8 electronic [1] - 40:7 devices [7] - 7:15, 17:10, 42:8, 42:30, 64:6, 64:9, ex-wife's [1] - 59:23 deal [3] - 24:9, 65:25, 18:21, 19:3, 41:23, 66:5, 70:14, 76:14, electronics [4] - 38:12, exact [4] - 3:2, 26:10, 93:8 41:24, 44:5 80:27, 91:2, 91:3, 38:13, 38:14 26:18, 84:6 dealer [2] - 37:22, 104:7 94:30, 100:16, 100:20, [1] devise [1] - 111:23 eleven - 14:29 exactly [5] - 27:3, 29:11, dealing [5] - 4:15, 4:16, 104:16 DiCaprio [2] - 46:17, embarrass [4] - 52:27, 50:2, 50:23, 108:24 11:24, 29:20, 30:18 46:18 download [2] - 41:9, 52:29, 53:2, 62:29 examination [7] - 55:9, dealings [4] - 21:27, 41:12 diesel [1] - 8:10 embarrassed [1] - 63:4 55:26, 57:17, 57:23, 23:30, 24:2, 97:9 downloaded [1] - 50:12 different [17] - 2:17, 2:22, embarrassment [1] - 76:1, 92:23, 109:30 deals [1] - 96:29 8:9, 15:22, 17:23, downloading [2] - 50:24, 62:27 examine [2] - 75:28, 76:5 dealt [1] - 5:18 18:18, 22:16, 27:2, 51:2 employer [1] - 55:20 examined [2] - 95:14, death [5] - 49:21, 106:12, 27:29, 28:13, 39:8, drafted [1] - 61:3 employers [2] - 27:9, 107:18 106:13, 106:14, 107:3 45:30, 52:21, 63:24, draw [1] - 71:9 37:4 EXAMINED [5] - 1:10, debrief [6] - 2:19, 2:22, 63:25, 64:3, 103:8 drink [1] - 34:18 encountered [1] - 64:5 34:2, 76:18, 86:28, 3:25, 5:1, 5:14, 7:8 difficulty [2] - 3:3, 43:11 drive [2] - 9:2, 79:12 end [12] - 24:22, 24:23, 107:15 debriefed [1] - 65:5 dinner [1] - 31:5 driven [2] - 48:13, 48:17 28:22, 31:15, 37:8, example [1] - 36:8 December [1] - 53:4 direct [2] - 57:18, 94:7 driver [4] - 21:5, 21:14, 37:25, 45:19, 52:9, except [1] - 77:17 DECEMBER [1] - 1:1 disagree [3] - 63:11, 91:7, 91:11 73:4, 73:6, 82:15, 102:3 exception [1] - 45:3 decide [1] - 51:23 70:26, 78:19 driving [3] - 9:2, 104:15, England [9] - 13:12, excerpt [1] - 107:22 decided [4] - 24:22, disappear [6] - 35:22, 104:16 13:13, 28:14, 35:18, exchange [2] - 15:9, 24:23, 37:8, 37:29 39:29, 39:30, 40:1, drove [2] - 8:26, 78:23 35:21, 43:14, 74:28, 15:10 decision [1] - 82:9 42:28, 43:4 Drug [2] - 12:4, 12:10 104:7, 105:16 Excise [3] - 30:11, 31:6, decode [1] - 15:19 disappeared [1] - 33:7 drug [2] - 103:5, 104:7 enlighten [1] - 82:30 100:11 Defence [1] - 55:20 disappearing [1] - 43:5 drugs [5] - 32:3, 100:14, entails [1] - 72:22 excited [1] - 91:29 defendant [2] - 58:13, disappointed [1] - 57:3 100:18 enterprise [2] - 25:3, excuse [1] - 93:30 61:26 25:21 discussing [1] - 55:7 drunk [2] - 34:20, 90:6 executed [1] - 19:29 definitely [2] - 89:4, entirely [1] - 33:25 discussion [2] - 23:17, Dublin [4] - 20:20, 26:11, exhibiting [2] - 42:10, 108:10 70:16 29:2, 31:12 entitled [2] - 74:27, 78:8 42:13 deliberately [1] - 34:23 dishonest [1] - 88:8 dug [1] - 8:13 equally [3] - 14:27, 27:10, exhibition [7] - 37:4, delighted [1] - 9:20 36:21 dispute [2] - 52:13, 52:14 dump [10] - 8:13, 9:3, 9:9, 37:7, 37:10, 37:14, delusional [1] - 105:8 equipment [4] - 10:2, distance [3] - 79:28, 9:10, 9:19, 9:21, 9:22, 37:30, 38:2, 40:10 demeanour [1] - 80:29 79:29, 98:24 9:26, 9:29 10:5, 14:13, 18:2 exhibitions [1] - 40:30 denies [1] - 86:13 escaped [1] - 91:14 distances [2] - 79:22, Dundalk [16] - 21:11, expect [2] - 94:2, 109:11 deny [5] - 77:1, 77:2, 79:26 21:15, 22:11, 63:25, especially [2] - 24:19, expected [1] - 32:27 77:6, 96:25, 107:25 92:13 distribute [1] - 41:14 64:7, 64:9, 65:3, 66:5, explain [9] - 11:2, 39:25, Department [1] - 26:12 66:6, 66:17, 79:13, essentially [1] - 12:22 divorce [1] - 53:15 43:12, 59:12, 59:28, department [2] - 11:1, 79:19, 79:28, 80:13, establish [1] - 68:1 divorced [1] - 53:14 59:30, 70:4, 71:1, 82:8 19:4 90:6, 105:28 established [1] - 58:2 document [5] - 16:10, explaining [6] - 25:10, departments [2] - 2:22, 106:15, 106:18, 106:21, Durack [2] - 5:30, 63:16 etc [2] - 14:13, 68:14 59:9, 59:22, 61:15, 11:21 106:22 DURACK [7] - 1:8, 1:10, EU [1] - 30:23 70:17, 82:6 Derek [1] - 23:11 1:13, 6:2, 7:12, 17:5, domain [1] - 59:7 euphemism [1] - 106:8 explanation [1] - 70:29 Dermot [1] - 66:25 33:28 Donaldson [7] - 69:14, euro [1] - 30:2 explode [1] - 38:23 derogatory [1] - 94:1 70:4, 70:9, 70:13, during [8] - 6:21, 14:12, Eurodisney [11] - 2:23, explosive [16] - 37:6, Derry [3] - 101:6, 101:18, 70:17, 70:21, 71:1 30:28, 43:3, 80:17, 2:30, 4:1, 4:3, 4:28, 6:4, 38:9, 38:21, 38:23, 101:20 84:23, 99:28, 111:21 done [31] - 1:29, 2:4, 4:9, 95:16, 96:10, 96:13, 38:24, 40:10, 40:19,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 5
40:26, 40:27, 41:3, fell [4] - 23:4, 23:5, 100:5, 99:23, 99:24, 99:25, 41:6 grille [1] - 9:4 41:19, 41:23, 41:24, 100:6 99:26, 99:27 gaps [1] - 30:12 grind [3] - 8:7, 8:8, 8:11 42:19, 86:6 felt [1] - 60:26 flashing [6] - 38:28, 40:4, garda [4] - 76:25, 78:11, grinder [3] - 109:3, explosives [3] - 8:7, 9:10, female [2] - 16:26, 16:27 40:12, 40:13, 41:20, 78:16, 105:28 109:12, 109:13 86:11 fertiliser [3] - 8:7, 8:12, 41:28 Garda [16] - 15:13, 21:17, grinders [3] - 109:1, Express [1] - 97:14 8:14 flats [1] - 96:6 30:20, 32:18, 67:29, 109:6, 109:7 expressed [1] - 50:29 fertilisers [1] - 7:16 flew [2] - 31:8, 31:11 77:17, 78:3, 80:4, gripe [1] - 27:13 expression [1] - 101:1 few [12] - 2:4, 5:5, 9:23, flicked [1] - 51:27 83:19, 83:27, 100:17, ground [1] - 8:14 extend [1] - 74:30 11:28, 26:30, 52:8, fly [1] - 31:7 103:26, 103:28, 104:13, group [4] - 13:16, 13:20, extended [2] - 72:20, 63:24, 64:10, 76:20, follow [2] - 6:14, 112:3 104:22, 108:22 13:25, 22:6 74:17 99:8, 104:17, 105:10 following [5] - 7:25, gardaí [2] - 80:28, 81:11 groups [3] - 23:14, 27:17 extent [2] - 19:23, 58:10 field [1] - 98:17 15:29, 61:28, 74:9, Gardaí [2] - 32:26, 32:28 grudging [1] - 97:29 extra [1] - 10:30 figure [3] - 34:25, 75:16, 74:12 garden [1] - 8:24 guarantees [1] - 28:25 eye [1] - 39:1 88:27 FOLLOWS [7] - 1:2, 1:11, gas [2] - 9:11, 9:12 Guards [1] - 31:28 eyes [1] - 57:5 figures [1] - 86:30 34:2, 74:1, 76:18, gas-bottle [1] - 9:11 guilty [1] - 107:2 file [3] - 108:21, 109:23, 86:28, 107:15 gather [1] - 102:1 gun [3] - 43:26, 82:12, F 109:24 follows [1] - 12:2 gathering [1] - 88:20 90:18 filed [3] - 53:16, 74:23, foot [2] - 91:11, 96:22 general [3] - 70:19, 107:1 gunmen [3] - 23:15, 96:4, fabrication [5] - 71:16, 75:2 footage [1] - 9:21 generally [1] - 34:10 96:5 77:30, 78:1, 78:26, files [2] - 13:6, 33:12 FOR [1] - 73:11 gentleman [5] - 16:16, gunned [1] - 82:15 86:16 fill [1] - 30:11 Force [2] - 26:2, 43:25 31:7, 31:12, 82:21, guns [1] - 41:1 face [2] - 49:4, 49:20 filled [1] - 98:17 force [1] - 10:4 108:1 guy [5] - 28:10, 32:6, faces [1] - 5:13 film [7] - 44:24, 44:28, forces [3] - 32:18, 81:23, gentlemen [2] - 8:20, 90:15, 101:12 facilities [1] - 14:13 45:3, 45:10, 45:14, 83:24 17:24 facility [1] - 15:8 46:20, 46:22 forefront [1] - 68:15 genuine [1] - 25:12 H fact [16] - 2:12, 4:13, 8:1, filmed [1] - 99:8 Foreign [1] - 26:13 ghost [2] - 65:26, 67:12 18:16, 22:2, 23:4, finally [1] - 86:15 forever [2] - 56:15, 56:17 given [39] - 3:13, 3:15, habit [1] - 90:7 23:18, 23:28, 29:2, Finance [1] - 31:3 forget [1] - 108:23 3:16, 6:15, 7:25, 13:10, half [4] - 14:29, 71:28, 35:28, 35:30, 40:6, 72:1, 92:5 finances [1] - 63:6 forgive [3] - 29:22, 13:21, 13:22, 13:26, 57:25, 68:8, 89:29, financial [5] - 48:23, 103:26, 111:20 13:28, 13:29, 13:30, halfway [3] - 79:13, 110:3 50:30, 51:1, 52:16, forgiveness [1] - 50:28 14:1, 14:16, 16:9, 79:18, 79:26 factory [3] - 101:23, hand [6] - 79:5, 79:16, 52:18 Forkhill [1] - 20:19 18:17, 26:22, 28:25, 108:12, 109:22 87:18, 87:20, 89:3, 89:4 fingerprint [1] - 109:15 Former [1] - 43:21 32:7, 35:5, 72:22, fail [1] - 71:2 handed [5] - 65:11, fingerprints [8] - 108:15, former [4] - 27:9, 53:6, 74:12, 74:13, 74:17, failures [1] - 103:17 108:21, 108:23, 108:25, 78:12, 78:17 74:29, 75:9, 83:22, 67:18, 70:2, 99:9, fair [1] - 88:28 106:22 109:10, 109:11, 109:15, four [3] - 20:18, 25:7, 86:10, 86:16, 87:30, fairly [4] - 36:5, 68:11, 109:21 91:13 92:14, 101:14, 101:15, handle [3] - 5:6, 12:7, 70:12, 88:28 52:14 finish [5] - 4:11, 59:10, frame [1] - 105:11 101:24, 103:14, 106:15, fairness [1] - 107:29 handled [2] - 6:25, 93:3 79:7, 79:8, 105:26 fraud [4] - 18:26, 101:6, 106:20 fall [1] - 98:26 handler [9] - 5:5, 24:29, finished [3] - 1:8, 76:1, 102:12, 102:30 gloves [3] - 108:27, fallout [1] - 12:15 25:11, 25:15, 92:13, 81:15 Fraud [1] - 104:22 108:29, 109:8 falls [1] - 22:6 104:12, 110:4, 110:7 finishes [1] - 64:13 Freddie [2] - 55:19, 61:1 glue [3] - 43:26, 82:12, false [3] - 51:9, 55:20, 82:15 handlers [53] - 3:9, 3:24, Fintan [4] - 4:7, 4:24, free [1] - 70:12 58:16 glue-gunned [1] - 82:15 4:2, 4:10, 4:16, 5:3, 5:4, 78:22, 78:27 friend [1] - 94:26 falsely [1] - 62:17 glued [1] - 82:11 5:5, 5:8, 5:10, 7:18, 8:1, Finucane [1] - 66:25 Friend [2] - 55:28, 64:21 familiar [1] - 35:30 gofer [2] - 81:12, 81:14 8:14, 10:21, 10:23, fire [5] - 91:10, 96:4, 96:7, friendly [1] - 5:12 families [4] - 94:17, gold [1] - 101:9 10:25, 10:28, 11:7, 98:16, 98:22 friends [1] - 53:12 94:19, 94:26, 95:9 golden [1] - 25:22 11:14, 13:2, 13:3, firearms [2] - 32:3, 32:4 front [2] - 81:9, 90:14 family [7] - 23:15, 57:26, government [1] - 60:29 13:23, 24:1, 24:3, 31:8, fired [1] - 20:7 full [2] - 49:20, 54:23 94:27, 95:1, 95:5, 95:7, Government [6] - 29:8, 32:24, 33:4, 33:6, firing [2] - 27:19, 98:25 Fulton [11] - 39:20, 43:24, 97:1 33:13, 33:20, 52:7, firm [1] - 75:23 43:27, 51:30, 55:7, 32:1, 52:4, 88:27, fantasist [2] - 97:28, 54:10, 54:14, 60:28, first [16] - 2:8, 11:11, 55:12, 57:14, 94:13, 103:10, 103:15 105:7 86:10, 89:27, 90:21, 20:7, 20:8, 21:9, 21:10, 107:17, 110:15, 110:18 GPS [3] - 8:15, 8:17, 9:18 fantastical [1] - 100:25 92:9, 92:11, 93:20, 34:13, 42:23, 43:29, FULTON [1] - 1:10 Graham [1] - 82:22 fantasy [9] - 84:22, 93:28, 98:19, 98:30, 64:4, 67:15, 68:1, Fulton's [1] - 72:29 grant [1] - 30:23 102:27, 102:28, 103:1, 99:4, 99:20, 100:2, 75:22, 76:23, 87:4, function [3] - 87:6, 87:8, granted [1] - 75:15 103:2, 103:5, 103:6, 100:15, 101:24, 101:29, 108:18 92:8 granting [1] - 75:25 103:22, 103:23 102:19, 104:5, 104:8 fish [1] - 71:13 funds [1] - 104:2 grateful [1] - 110:24 far [2] - 15:10, 55:22 handling [2] - 10:19, fit [1] - 57:18 furtherance [1] - 61:11 gravel [2] - 79:7 father [1] - 90:16 93:27 five [1] - 48:22 future [2] - 74:14, 74:24 great [7] - 19:23, 29:17, fault [1] - 102:7 hands [3] - 13:2, 13:3, Flanagan [6] - 44:30, 30:20, 39:26, 89:25, 75:1 feared [1] - 97:1 48:28, 49:23, 50:1, 90:8, 90:19 G happy [8] - 25:5, 27:13, February [2] - 106:24, 70:22, 110:3 greatest [1] - 55:6 42:7, 70:23, 106:7, 106:29 Flanagan's [1] - 44:30 gain [1] - 27:18 green [4] - 1:17, 81:3, 111:25, 111:29, 112:4 fee [3] - 41:8, 50:14, Flanigan [1] - 74:7 galleries [1] - 39:15 81:4, 81:13 Hardy [1] - 66:22 50:17 FLANIGAN [5] - 74:9, gallery [4] - 37:17, 37:21, green-booked [3] - 1:17, harm [5] - 49:3, 49:12, feet [1] - 56:18 74:22, 75:8, 75:19, 76:1 37:23, 42:12 81:3, 81:13 49:21, 49:27, 49:30 Fein [1] - 101:12 flash [7] - 38:18, 38:19, Gallery [3] - 37:30, 39:11, green-booking [1] - 81:4
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 6 harmlessly [1] - 98:17 honest [1] - 88:8 inclusion [1] - 62:26 36:11, 36:17, 88:23 83:16, 83:19, 83:21, hash [1] - 100:18 honestly [1] - 64:22 incorrect [2] - 38:6, 38:7 inside [5] - 9:23, 78:23, 84:15, 86:4, 86:9, Haughey [6] - 95:22, hoped [2] - 43:28, 111:22 increased [1] - 32:17 98:12, 99:17, 109:13 96:23, 102:6, 102:24, 96:3, 96:6, 96:9, 96:30, hopeless [1] - 26:18 indeed [8] - 5:19, 23:21, insight [2] - 43:28, 44:4 103:6, 103:12, 107:24 97:7 hostage [1] - 23:15 25:12, 33:28, 40:17, Inspector [1] - 93:2 involved" [1] - 70:15 hauls [1] - 100:18 hotel [1] - 26:14 55:8, 71:16, 87:19 instruct [1] - 28:30 involvement [6] - 20:24, Hawkey [1] - 98:29 hour [2] - 71:29, 72:1 Independent [7] - 29:24, instructed [6] - 8:16, 21:1, 21:4, 22:18, 32:5, head [1] - 87:28 hours [3] - 31:17, 86:7, 29:26, 29:27, 29:29, 8:28, 51:3, 76:21, 63:17 headed [1] - 61:8 86:11 32:8, 32:12, 32:14 81:18, 111:16 involves [1] - 36:26 headline [4] - 36:11, House [3] - 78:22, 78:28, indicate [1] - 75:3 instructing [1] - 88:7 involving [3] - 68:14, 36:20, 36:24, 36:28 79:4 indicated [2] - 57:11, Intelligence [6] - 2:23, 69:2, 70:1 headlines [6] - 36:9, house [20] - 17:25, 21:19, 110:18 2:26, 2:28, 26:4, 32:18, IRA [60] - 8:23, 9:13, 36:12, 36:16, 36:17, 22:14, 64:2, 78:23, indicates [1] - 51:30 87:25 14:11, 14:17, 15:8, 36:23, 36:30 78:28, 79:3, 79:15, indication [6] - 74:10, intelligence [8] - 32:24, 16:17, 19:8, 19:30, heads [2] - 31:22, 31:23 79:18, 79:24, 80:14, 75:8, 75:9, 75:13, 87:23, 88:12, 88:14, 20:22, 22:6, 23:12, health [1] - 91:18 80:24, 80:27, 80:29, 80:19, 87:16 88:20, 96:9, 102:1, 25:1, 30:21, 59:3, 59:5, hear [9] - 13:14, 19:28, 81:1, 81:6, 81:9, 82:20, indications [1] - 88:10 103:11 60:30, 64:11, 66:6, 28:15, 39:15, 45:22, 84:4 individual [1] - 89:5 intended [1] - 20:1 66:17, 78:12, 78:17, 60:5, 83:3, 84:1, 111:6 household [1] - 43:26 individuals [2] - 6:6, intending [1] - 75:3 80:4, 81:22, 83:12, heard [21] - 1:23, 3:5, houses [2] - 17:10, 18:22 19:19 intention [2] - 8:6, 111:5 83:17, 84:17, 84:18, 19:9, 19:20, 19:23, Hughes [1] - 66:23 inevitably [1] - 109:9 interest [4] - 26:20, 27:7, 85:21, 87:7, 87:9, 19:30, 21:2, 21:3, human [1] - 108:29 Infiltrator' [1] - 44:24 35:13, 47:29 87:12, 87:23, 88:16, 25:29, 45:10, 45:26, Hurst [2] - 108:3, 108:9 Informant [1] - 101:30 interested [2] - 39:11, 88:24, 88:27, 89:1, 77:13, 81:10, 83:14, hÉireann [1] - 107:5 informant [14] - 23:21, 47:18 89:29, 90:2, 90:25, 84:24, 84:25, 88:14, 24:13, 26:23, 30:17, interesting [1] - 31:21 90:28, 91:18, 92:1, 96:9, 97:12, 99:3, 99:9, 89:17, 90:4, 92:3 I 30:18, 30:30, 31:18, Internal [6] - 21:5, 21:8, hearing [2] - 91:22, 35:27, 35:28, 35:29, 23:1, 85:18, 87:9, 87:25 99:19, 99:24, 99:25, 100:29, 101:12, 101:22, 111:23 i's [1] - 104:20 63:3, 87:10, 103:9, Internet [6] - 28:3, 28:15, hearsay [1] - 84:22 Ian [1] - 108:3 105:29 43:8, 43:9, 43:21, 108:5 102:15, 104:1, 106:6, 106:8, 106:23, 107:7, heart [1] - 91:1 ice [1] - 90:11 informants [1] - 88:22 interrogate [2] - 19:22, 107:10, 109:25 Heathrow [1] - 31:11 ice-cream [1] - 90:11 information [58] - 2:9, 20:2 IRA's [1] - 8:6 height [2] - 98:11, 98:20 idea [4] - 6:7, 39:16, 4:10, 7:26, 11:6, 12:7, interrogated [5] - 59:5, Ireland [18] - 6:8, 6:24, held [3] - 25:13, 25:14, 39:18, 104:18 13:7, 13:10, 13:22, 62:11, 64:9, 65:5, 87:12 7:14, 9:28, 13:13, 54:15 identified [1] - 6:7 13:27, 14:16, 14:28, interrogation [1] - 68:5 26:22, 27:16, 35:18, help [4] - 87:3, 97:16, identify [5] - 2:7, 3:10, 15:5, 18:6, 19:17, interrogations [1] - 68:14 43:23, 74:29, 88:26, 97:18, 110:24 4:18, 11:30, 104:24 26:27, 29:24, 30:8, interrogators [1] - 87:28 88:27, 90:30, 96:16, helped [3] - 27:15, 27:17, ill [1] - 91:18 30:10, 31:4, 31:25, interrupting [1] - 55:4 101:25, 103:7, 108:20, 83:27 illegally [1] - 50:12 32:19, 33:20, 33:24, intervening [2] - 111:14, 109:28 helping [1] - 31:5 illustrate [1] - 64:27 38:4, 43:18, 52:1, 52:3, 111:21 Irish [8] - 9:23, 9:29, helps [1] - 60:17 immediate [1] - 99:7 76:24, 77:5, 77:10, intrinsic [1] - 39:20 30:19, 60:16, 90:30, Henry [2] - 107:19, immediately [3] - 76:8, 78:3, 78:4, 78:6, 78:11, introduce [1] - 36:28 100:15, 100:16 107:30 99:21, 102:4 78:16, 78:18, 83:22, introduced [4] - 26:1, Island [1] - 99:19 hero [1] - 34:30 implied [1] - 86:6 83:24, 83:29, 84:16, 36:8, 36:16, 36:23 issue [2] - 24:9, 57:13 hide [1] - 41:29 imply [2] - 86:4, 86:8 84:24, 84:25, 92:19, introducing [1] - 36:24 issued [1] - 104:24 Higgins [3] - 30:1, 31:1, importance [4] - 12:30, 92:20, 95:10, 96:26, investigate [1] - 95:12 issues [3] - 52:3, 57:6, 32:5 34:24, 34:26, 34:29 98:6, 98:9, 98:19, investigating [2] - 92:18, 69:15 high [1] - 88:29 important [6] - 29:18, 98:29, 99:5, 102:1, 92:21 102:8, 102:20, 103:28, it'll [1] - 98:25 High [2] - 53:17, 61:10 34:24, 34:27, 34:28, investigation [8] - 23:6, 105:2 Italian [1] - 101:9 hijack [1] - 101:23 67:27, 67:29 31:10, 31:14, 33:11, informer [4] - 22:9, 64:7, item [1] - 49:9 himself [4] - 22:30, 26:27, impression [1] - 27:12 49:7, 93:15, 93:18, 94:3 64:8, 78:25 items [3] - 32:23, 41:28, 27:18, 111:29 imprisoned [1] - 62:18 investigators [1] - 52:2 infrared [1] - 99:26 43:26 hire [1] - 21:15 imprisonment [2] - invigorated [1] - 66:4 infringe [1] - 50:22 Ivan [1] - 30:2 history [2] - 2:19, 67:3 55:21, 58:16 invited [1] - 37:17 infringed [1] - 72:10 hit [4] - 9:1, 36:1, 36:3, in' [1] - 90:25 involve [3] - 69:11, 69:12, 96:7 In' [3] - 90:26, 91:20, infringement [3] - 49:13, 69:13 J 91:29 49:14, 50:14 Hold [1] - 59:9 involved [52] - 1:16, 1:21, jail [1] - 99:14 in-law [1] - 98:29 Ingram [8] - 25:26, 26:8, hold [4] - 8:13, 16:11, 5:14, 7:9, 10:19, 12:25, jailed [1] - 88:16 inaccuracies [1] - 65:28 26:24, 26:28, 27:12, 40:15, 91:16 14:12, 17:10, 17:23, James [5] - 66:22, 67:19, incendiary [1] - 7:15 27:13, 27:14, 27:15 holding [1] - 23:15 18:5, 19:15, 19:17, 67:20, 82:19 incident [14] - 4:8, 4:24, inhibitions [2] - 70:8, 19:19, 20:10, 20:14, Holding [1] - 59:4 January [5] - 111:3, 17:6, 36:26, 67:23, 70:10 holds [1] - 55:24 20:15, 23:6, 23:24, 111:9, 111:11, 111:13, 67:27, 69:2, 69:11, initial [1] - 31:10 hole [1] - 42:30 30:2, 30:21, 33:13, 111:20 69:25, 70:1, 70:18, injured [1] - 95:6 33:16, 35:9, 35:25, holidays [1] - 86:2 JANUARY [1] - 112:13 71:1, 76:27, 82:24 innocent [1] - 60:27 36:25, 46:22, 56:3, Hollywood [2] - 17:20, jar [5] - 40:6, 40:29, 42:2, incidents [5] - 67:24, inquiring [1] - 56:11 56:7, 56:8, 58:11, 101:25 42:4 68:14, 70:21, 84:21, Inquiry [3] - 18:19, 36:8, 59:23, 60:30, 64:24, holy [1] - 111:22 jars [1] - 43:26 105:1 36:12 67:24, 68:5, 69:7, 70:6, home [4] - 53:24, 96:3, Jarvis [1] - 99:11 97:14, 99:1 inclined [1] - 19:16 inquiry [5] - 22:10, 22:26, 71:2, 71:15, 72:20,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 7
Jeffrey [1] - 69:14 55:21, 68:24, 81:22, less [1] - 56:18 96:15, 109:16 mark [3] - 6:10, 11:30, Jim [1] - 30:1 90:3, 106:10 letter [8] - 31:23, 49:25, looked [4] - 22:3, 24:12, 16:30 job [13] - 22:15, 22:25, killed [4] - 4:29, 12:18, 50:2, 54:13, 61:5, 61:9, 44:5, 94:6 marked [1] - 18:2 23:13, 28:25, 28:28, 97:21, 99:25 106:23, 106:26 looking [5] - 22:22, 29:7, market [2] - 104:11, 31:2, 36:12, 48:22, kilo [1] - 99:9 letter-heads [1] - 31:23 31:20, 35:7, 104:2 104:25 91:2, 91:19, 96:10 kitchen [2] - 82:3, 82:9 level [1] - 12:7 loss [2] - 83:8, 83:11 Marks [2] - 99:11, 99:12 jobs [1] - 91:1 knife" [1] - 63:4 liable [1] - 41:8 loyalist [1] - 96:4 Marotta [4] - 16:15, Joe [19] - 21:13, 21:16, Knife' [2] - 35:29, 36:1 liar [1] - 105:7 loyalists [2] - 97:3, 97:9 16:18, 101:10, 102:19 21:18, 21:28, 22:12, Knife'" [1] - 35:28 libel [1] - 32:9 lucky [1] - 32:11 married [1] - 101:20 22:22, 63:25, 64:10, Knocknagoney [1] - 18:3 libelled [1] - 47:13 Luke [3] - 37:30, 39:11, Martial [1] - 106:30 68:17, 87:27, 88:7, knots [1] - 41:1 lie [3] - 51:6, 94:23, 94:24 41:6 Martin [5] - 27:12, 27:13, 95:22, 96:3, 96:29, know.. [1] - 27:19 lied [1] - 93:7 lunch [1] - 82:10 27:14, 34:6 97:7, 98:29 knowing [2] - 61:13, lies [1] - 97:6 LUNCH [2] - 73:11, 74:1 Martindale [2] - 23:11, Joe's [1] - 21:14 61:16 life [13] - 43:1, 43:6, 45:4, lunchtime [1] - 80:20 59:6 John [15] - 21:13, 21:14, knowledge [4] - 15:11, 45:29, 45:30, 46:3, lying [2] - 106:3, 106:4 matter [14] - 3:21, 54:29, 21:16, 21:18, 21:27, 21:7, 27:15, 104:4 47:2, 47:10, 62:25, 56:29, 57:5, 64:3, 68:8, 21:28, 22:12, 22:22, known [4] - 80:5, 94:4, 67:5, 83:8, 83:11, 96:24 M 68:11, 71:15, 74:22, 63:25, 64:10, 68:17, 109:18, 109:25 life's [1] - 28:23 75:20, 100:9, 108:11, ma'am [4] - 108:10, 87:27, 88:7 knows [2] - 48:11, 89:23 lifetime [1] - 28:29 109:29 108:16, 110:5, 110:13 John-Joe [1] - 88:7 kudos [1] - 66:4 light [3] - 29:19, 99:27, matters [8] - 32:25, joined [4] - 83:6, 84:7, 99:29 machine [2] - 10:8, 87:14 41:30, 42:1, 55:11, madam [31] - 77:28, 78:1, 84:11, 84:26 L lights [8] - 38:18, 38:19, 56:3, 74:18, 76:25, joint [1] - 26:20 38:26, 40:4, 40:12, 78:5, 78:18, 78:27, 107:17 Jones [2] - 27:27, 27:28 labourer [1] - 97:8 40:13, 41:20, 41:28 79:2, 79:27, 80:10, Mayfair [1] - 38:1 LAFFERTY [1] - 74:6 80:14, 81:1, 81:17, Joseph [12] - 65:1, 77:4, likely [4] - 25:20, 70:6, McDonald [2] - 107:19, 80:13, 80:17, 81:18, laid [1] - 20:6 71:26, 71:28 81:29, 82:7, 82:28, 107:30 83:2, 83:18, 83:21, 81:19, 84:2, 84:28, last [3] - 56:20, 96:23, limelight [2] - 71:7, 71:8 McGuinness [2] - 111:27, 83:25, 84:6, 84:18, 85:21, 89:9, 103:30, 97:7 Limerick [1] - 100:17 112:2 late [1] - 72:10 84:21, 85:6, 85:8, 104:10 limited [2] - 72:19, 74:15 McMurray [4] - 7:21, lately [1] - 50:6 85:13, 85:15, 85:17, Joseph's [1] - 81:21 line [3] - 27:19, 44:18, 93:16, 94:9, 99:25 85:21, 85:26, 86:7, journalist [9] - 13:11, laterally [1] - 71:9 58:20 mean [50] - 10:3, 11:12, 86:10, 86:17 13:15, 13:18, 13:19, latest [1] - 96:30 lines [1] - 28:23 13:11, 15:2, 15:3, Mafia [1] - 101:9 29:26, 29:29, 44:28, latitude [2] - 55:28, 57:2 lining [1] - 56:19 15:20, 15:30, 17:15, magazine [1] - 27:24 44:29, 108:7 laughing [1] - 90:20 liquor [1] - 18:28 19:4, 19:5, 23:13, Magee [4] - 21:13, 64:10, joy [1] - 90:8 launched [1] - 43:21 liquors [1] - 102:10 24:23, 24:28, 24:29, 87:28 Judge [4] - 13:5, 13:21, LAVERTY [11] - 55:4, Lisburn [1] - 2:24 25:20, 25:21, 25:29, Magellan [1] - 8:15 14:16, 25:10 71:24, 72:28, 73:4, list [5] - 10:13, 10:14, 28:11, 29:17, 31:24, magnets [1] - 82:11 July [2] - 4:29, 50:7 107:15, 107:17, 110:22, 10:15, 17:21, 87:30 33:23, 34:27, 35:7, 111:2, 111:11, 111:16, Maguire [1] - 66:22 36:21, 37:15, 39:25, June [4] - 61:25, 95:28, listen [5] - 15:13, 15:19, mail [2] - 50:29, 61:5 95:30, 96:13 112:9 15:20, 92:8, 92:9 42:5, 43:5, 43:20, Laverty [5] - 1:4, 57:21, mailed [1] - 50:7 44:16, 45:9, 45:29, jurisdiction [1] - 75:5 listening [5] - 16:4, mails [1] - 46:26 Justice [1] - 26:13 72:25, 107:13, 110:20 17:10, 17:24, 18:21, 47:10, 47:28, 47:30, main [9] - 11:29, 11:30, law [2] - 50:26, 98:29 19:2 51:1, 51:11, 53:12, lawful [1] - 70:11 12:6, 76:29, 79:10, 54:1, 58:10, 63:29, K literally [1] - 56:18 lawyer [2] - 28:20, 28:30 79:14, 79:21, 79:30, 67:1, 69:19, 74:26, live [5] - 20:2, 42:21, Karl [1] - 90:15 80:1 77:2, 79:24, 84:17, lawyers [1] - 72:29 42:30, 48:11, 63:8 Keeley [29] - 34:4, 34:13, maintain [1] - 35:13 88:14, 89:22, 106:7 lead [1] - 24:11 lives [3] - 35:10, 98:1, 41:29, 44:6, 48:13, Majesty's [2] - 103:10, mean.. [1] - 79:20 leading [1] - 44:11 98:6 50:4, 53:5, 55:17, 103:15 means [3] - 15:23, 15:25, learned [3] - 85:20, living [11] - 13:12, 21:14, 55:18, 55:25, 59:8, major [5] - 5:1, 5:14, 99:28 85:21, 100:28 22:12, 35:23, 42:29, 61:19, 61:22, 64:13, 12:15, 66:5, 66:16 meant [2] - 10:28, 14:24 learnt [2] - 14:4, 14:6 43:14, 43:17, 48:12, 64:28, 65:6, 69:6, 71:4, maker [1] - 82:23 lease [1] - 97:6 65:3, 75:4, 105:16 measured [3] - 79:22, 72:16, 72:17, 76:20, Man [1] - 90:12 98:23, 98:24 least [3] - 4:22, 25:25, location [1] - 98:17 82:24, 83:1, 85:4, man [26] - 16:14, 16:29, measures [1] - 100:3 69:15 Lock [1] - 8:18 86:22, 97:10, 102:27, 20:28, 21:26, 30:28, media [3] - 27:23, 27:26, leave [4] - 22:4, 24:17, locked [5] - 76:6, 76:7, 105:2, 105:7 53:12, 62:17, 63:9, 38:5 68:8, 109:10 76:9, 76:11, 76:16 keeley [1] - 82:5 63:29, 68:24, 80:4, Meet [1] - 26:26 led [1] - 93:16 log [1] - 9:2 keen [1] - 35:13 87:18, 87:20, 89:3, meet [8] - 2:27, 21:28, left [3] - 35:18, 79:5, logical [1] - 20:3 keep [3] - 18:7, 18:8, 47:9 89:4, 89:9, 89:11, 26:23, 26:30, 64:2, 79:16 logistical [1] - 72:9 Kelly [1] - 76:22 90:28, 91:4, 93:8, 64:3, 94:17, 94:19 left-hand [2] - 79:5, 79:16 logistically [1] - 72:7 kept [2] - 18:10, 19:27 96:28, 96:29, 98:28, meeting [13] - 6:2, 6:6, legal [16] - 1:6, 35:24, London [14] - 2:20, 2:28, KEVIN [1] - 1:10 98:30, 99:17, 99:21 6:11, 6:21, 7:1, 8:5, 41:14, 45:15, 45:16, 3:25, 5:18, 6:2, 6:11, Kevin [5] - 39:19, 43:24, man's [1] - 65:10 9:20, 10:30, 26:10, 45:17, 46:7, 48:24, 6:22, 9:20, 16:15, 31:9, 51:30, 57:14, 94:13 map [1] - 9:18 26:12, 32:6, 78:21, 52:12, 54:29, 55:7, 37:4, 37:10, 102:22, key [4] - 9:4, 28:22, March [3] - 2:14, 42:18, 88:25 66:29, 67:11, 68:25, 102:30 85:19, 86:30 80:11 meetings [4] - 6:27, 72:16, 111:28 look [10] - 13:5, 14:10, Kilkeel [1] - 82:21 Margaret [5] - 53:5, 10:28, 30:28, 64:23 Leonardo [2] - 46:17, 22:22, 22:23, 33:10, kill [7] - 23:16, 54:12, 55:17, 55:18, 65:6 melt [1] - 47:27 46:18 44:1, 80:16, 86:24,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 8 member [2] - 57:26, MILLS [1] - 106:18 56:29, 57:13, 57:17, 4:12, 4:19, 4:27, 5:17, night [4] - 88:3, 88:6, 104:1 mind [4] - 25:21, 48:2, 57:25, 58:2, 58:6, 5:20, 5:21, 5:24, 7:27, 97:7, 99:28 members [5] - 1:6, 6:3, 50:6, 68:15 58:13, 58:18, 58:22, 11:28, 16:19, 16:22, nine [1] - 48:22 80:28, 81:11, 81:22 minders [6] - 1:25, 1:28, 59:14, 59:20, 59:25, 27:1, 30:4, 30:6, 65:1, nine-to-five [1] - 48:22 men [4] - 10:19, 20:4, 1:29, 2:16, 2:17, 3:28 60:2, 61:8, 62:2, 62:6, 66:21, 67:1, 67:8, 67:9, nineties [1] - 21:24 89:1, 92:2 minders' [1] - 2:5 64:13, 64:21, 64:27, 70:14, 83:16, 101:11, nobody [2] - 48:11, mention [13] - 16:8, Minister [1] - 31:3 65:10, 65:17, 65:22, 101:12, 101:14 110:18 50:19, 65:6, 66:19, Ministry [1] - 55:20 71:20, 72:5, 72:15, naming [4] - 67:7, 70:8, none [1] - 102:28 66:28, 67:14, 67:23, minute [2] - 12:20, 74:15 73:9, 74:9, 74:22, 75:8, 70:10, 71:9 nonsense [2] - 42:8, 67:29, 68:2, 69:1, 70:6, minutes [1] - 56:18 75:19, 76:1, 76:5, Narrow [3] - 1:22, 83:1, 47:11 71:2 Mirror [3] - 42:18, 43:19, 76:11, 86:22, 86:28, 83:7 north [3] - 10:4, 15:10, mentioned [16] - 16:4, 44:2 86:30, 97:27, 106:18, nature [1] - 45:16 20:1 26:30, 53:25, 55:12, misinformation [1] - 106:20, 107:11, 111:27, Navan [1] - 85:28 North [7] - 24:27, 24:28, 62:17, 66:21, 66:30, 110:12 112:2 near [2] - 9:26, 74:23 32:18, 49:6, 65:3, 67:25, 69:8, 69:27, misleading [2] - 52:1, MRS [12] - 55:4, 71:24, need [13] - 4:23, 11:4, 100:16, 109:24 70:18, 70:20, 70:25, 52:3 72:28, 73:4, 74:6, 19:26, 33:4, 52:29, Northern [14] - 6:8, 6:24, 107:15, 107:17, 110:22, 83:16, 110:3 missed [1] - 96:5 53:2, 54:30, 56:26, 9:28, 26:21, 27:16, 111:2, 111:11, 111:16, mentioning [1] - 70:5 missing [3] - 19:1, 25:8, 61:20, 61:21, 75:12, 35:18, 43:23, 74:29, mentor [1] - 85:20 104:17 112:9 75:22, 98:4 88:26, 90:30, 101:25, MS [5] - 57:8, 71:28, merchant [1] - 82:22 mix [2] - 8:8, 32:24 need-to-know [1] - 19:26 103:7, 109:28 76:16, 76:18, 76:20 mercury [2] - 82:14, mixes [1] - 7:16 needed [6] - 19:26, 25:6, note [3] - 6:10, 16:25, Muirhevnamor [1] - 80:13 82:18 mixing [3] - 82:24, 86:6, 35:23, 60:22, 60:26, 88:3 merely [1] - 57:21 86:11 multi [1] - 30:2 73:7 nothing [30] - 14:23, multi-million [1] - 30:2 messages [1] - 15:19 moderate [1] - 34:22 needing [1] - 93:11 14:24, 19:5, 20:29, MULVENNA [5] - 57:8, met [15] - 8:17, 13:25, Molloy [1] - 108:22 needs [2] - 36:12, 75:13 23:3, 27:11, 27:18, 71:28, 76:16, 76:18, 21:10, 26:24, 26:28, moment [8] - 6:13, 15:6, Neil [1] - 86:22 41:24, 45:17, 46:9, 31:1, 31:12, 66:5, 35:26, 41:16, 42:22, 76:20 Nescafe [1] - 40:29 48:15, 53:29, 53:30, 84:30, 94:25, 95:2, 48:24, 51:21, 92:28 mummy [1] - 90:18 networks [1] - 15:13 54:11, 54:14, 54:29, murder [11] - 4:6, 4:23, 95:5, 95:6, 95:8, 95:9 moments [1] - 96:23 never [34] - 5:9, 6:7, 55:16, 58:22, 58:24, 7:21, 64:29, 89:10, metres [1] - 9:23 Monday [3] - 111:17, 10:16, 10:18, 18:24, 58:27, 60:12, 61:13, Metropolitan [2] - 42:6, 111:19, 111:20 90:9, 90:30, 93:16, 25:21, 25:29, 34:26, 61:16, 62:10, 63:12, 94:10, 94:14, 97:2 102:22 MONDAY [1] - 112:12 41:5, 45:26, 49:3, 64:15, 80:7, 85:25, murdered [5] - 52:7, 103:21 MI5 [25] - 2:18, 5:14, 5:24, money [9] - 48:14, 48:17, 51:28, 53:25, 62:17, 89:27, 96:1, 96:17, 6:3, 6:23, 6:25, 6:26, 51:6, 85:4, 85:7, 85:8, 66:29, 69:9, 69:20, notice [1] - 72:25 96:19 7:28, 8:4, 8:21, 10:11, 91:6, 103:14 69:27, 70:18, 70:25, notified [2] - 72:19, 72:29 murders [8] - 2:13, 3:7, 10:21, 11:11, 11:14, monotonous [1] - 8:12 78:2, 79:1, 79:22, notoriety [1] - 39:27 19:12, 80:11, 89:13, 11:20, 11:22, 12:13, month [2] - 34:22, 95:30 79:24, 80:9, 81:13, notorious [4] - 39:19, 85:11, 85:12, 92:12, 90:5, 91:22, 107:24 81:30, 83:23, 92:19, months [1] - 5:8 39:24, 39:25 92:15, 94:14, 98:19, Murphy [3] - 87:22, 92:20, 102:3, 107:27, Mooch' [1] - 80:23 November [2] - 32:9, 38:1 103:20 88:30, 89:1 108:10, 108:23 Mooch's [1] - 21:18 nuisance [1] - 81:12 Michael [2] - 44:29, 44:30 Murphy's [2] - 87:18, new [14] - 4:2, 5:9, 5:10, Morgan [5] - 66:22, number [16] - 13:3, 20:17, 87:20 7:15, 7:16, 15:15, 82:2, Mickey [13] - 65:1, 81:5, 67:19, 67:20, 82:19, 23:5, 24:6, 29:10, 33:6, must [11] - 13:12, 31:15, 88:4, 88:5, 94:15, 81:7, 90:24, 90:27, 82:20 60:11, 67:3, 86:30, 90:28, 91:1, 91:2, 91:7, 38:6, 38:7, 38:8, 59:12, 99:23, 100:3, 111:25, 89:16, 89:25, 92:25, morning [11] - 1:13, 1:14, 59:17, 65:15, 67:10, 111:30 91:15, 91:17, 92:1, 92:5 14:29, 34:5, 34:8, 51:4, 98:14, 106:14, 107:1, 70:23, 100:2 Newry [18] - 8:18, 15:9, Mickey's [3] - 21:19, 81:9, 63:17, 80:20, 80:21, 107:2 mustn't [1] - 68:3 30:16, 31:18, 31:23, 91:10 88:4, 99:18 mid [1] - 80:21 mutual [1] - 27:7 32:6, 84:18, 89:9, mortar [2] - 98:14, 98:22 O mid-morning [1] - 80:21 89:12, 89:15, 90:7, mortars [2] - 98:14, 98:15 O'CALLAGHAN [1] - middle [1] - 24:15 N 90:20, 90:28, 91:28, most [5] - 23:2, 67:27, 112:2 might [18] - 1:15, 19:17, 93:4, 93:5, 98:9, 99:4 80:16, 80:17, 97:29 nails [1] - 43:26 20:10, 20:12, 29:16, News [1] - 49:6 O'Callaghan [7] - 14:15, mostly [2] - 88:22, 91:23 name [35] - 9:21, 11:25, 29:26, 39:2, 39:3, 39:8, news [3] - 23:12, 91:11, 76:30, 87:4, 87:13, mother [1] - 53:24 11:26, 11:27, 13:18, 43:30, 49:12, 49:26, 91:26 88:15, 89:3, 95:15 motivation [1] - 49:16 13:19, 13:20, 16:26, 50:25, 56:14, 64:27, Newshound [1] - 96:2 O'Callaghan's [4] - mountain [6] - 8:5, 9:3, 16:30, 26:22, 30:17, 72:2, 76:6, 111:22 Newshound' [1] - 95:27 79:11, 79:15, 79:24, 9:5, 9:8, 9:24, 9:25 30:29, 31:7, 32:7, 34:6, 92:23 mile [1] - 91:13 newspaper [10] - 25:30, [2] mountains - 8:2, 8:4 36:7, 36:15, 36:17, o'clock [5] - 72:2, 76:8, mileage [3] - 9:1, 9:6, 26:21, 47:10, 49:3, mounted [1] - 8:29 36:20, 43:23, 66:6, 105:12 49:28, 94:12, 96:8, 111:3, 111:9, 111:13 move [5] - 43:6, 89:5, 66:16, 66:22, 79:11, O'Neill [5] - 107:5, 107:6, Military [2] - 2:23, 2:27 97:5, 99:18, 104:29 92:22, 94:7, 98:25 86:22, 90:15, 92:29, 107:7, 107:8, 107:9 military [9] - 3:11, 4:17, newspapers [7] - 35:25, moved [8] - 12:23, 64:9, 94:27, 94:30, 95:1, 5:26, 6:3, 11:5, 11:10, 53:18, 53:19, 83:15, o'ROURKE [1] - 34:2 64:10, 65:3, 90:30, 95:2, 100:30, 101:1, 12:13, 20:5, 92:12 85:5, 85:9, 99:18 O'ROURKE [24] - 34:4, 98:16, 99:25, 110:30 101:2, 105:28 milk [4] - 29:25, 30:3, next [9] - 2:12, 3:18, 9:28, 56:2, 56:11, 56:17, movements [1] - 83:24 named [7] - 6:15, 8:20, 30:25, 32:4 82:20, 88:4, 95:14, 56:29, 57:17, 57:25, MR [56] - 1:8, 1:10, 1:13, 16:29, 56:2, 64:24, 58:2, 58:6, 58:13, million [4] - 25:1, 25:3, 111:2, 111:6, 111:8 6:2, 7:12, 17:5, 33:28, 67:9, 96:9 30:2, 100:26 nickname [2] - 90:24, 58:18, 58:22, 59:14, 34:2, 34:4, 55:15, 56:2, names [30] - 1:27, 2:5, 59:20, 59:25, 60:2, Mills [2] - 106:5, 106:15 91:29 56:11, 56:17, 56:23, 2:6, 3:12, 3:13, 4:9,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 9
61:8, 62:2, 62:6, 64:21, once [3] - 33:24, 34:21, 49:10, 54:1, 54:2, 54:7, 103:23 personally [3] - 8:22, 65:10, 65:17, 65:22, 108:19 82:9, 93:28, 108:2, pen [1] - 22:17 12:17, 94:4 71:20 one [73] - 5:8, 5:22, 6:14, 111:27 penalty [1] - 107:3 personnel [3] - 7:29, O'Rourke [6] - 34:6, 9:15, 9:27, 9:28, 11:15, owner [1] - 50:9 pension [4] - 27:13, 83:9, 83:12 59:17, 64:19, 65:8, 11:30, 12:17, 15:14, owns [1] - 49:9 27:14, 28:30, 48:25 Peter [1] - 97:9 65:19, 67:7 16:16, 17:20, 17:21, people [116] - 2:19, 4:12, Pfizer [3] - 25:13, 104:17, O'Rourke's [2] - 55:13, 17:24, 18:22, 20:7, P 4:21, 5:18, 5:21, 5:24, 104:23 55:19 21:13, 22:30, 23:9, 5:26, 5:28, 6:15, 6:27, phone [6] - 14:30, 17:20, pack [2] - 25:7, 82:19 O'Rourke.. [1] - 55:30 23:10, 23:19, 27:24, 7:29, 8:21, 9:20, 10:4, 28:10, 28:23, 101:24, object [1] - 64:14 29:4, 30:26, 30:28, package [3] - 48:23, 10:12, 10:14, 10:15, 101:27 52:18 objected [1] - 45:12 31:2, 31:3, 31:8, 32:27, 10:22, 10:27, 10:29, phoned [2] - 28:10 page [6] - 64:30, 65:29, objection [1] - 72:12 33:19, 34:21, 36:24, 11:1, 11:12, 11:20, phoning [1] - 28:8 66:11, 66:15, 95:23, objective [1] - 35:21 46:26, 47:9, 47:10, 11:22, 11:28, 12:6, photograph [13] - 40:15, 110:9 obliged [1] - 73:9 51:14, 52:24, 54:26, 12:10, 12:11, 13:12, 40:16, 41:10, 41:13, pages [1] - 67:5 obvious [1] - 24:19 60:8, 60:11, 60:20, 16:16, 16:18, 16:20, 48:27, 49:1, 49:2, 49:4, paid [7] - 11:5, 48:18, obviously [2] - 72:22, 63:28, 67:4, 67:28, 17:21, 17:22, 18:27, 49:8, 49:20, 50:24, 51:4 85:10, 85:11, 96:11, 104:12 67:30, 69:15, 71:24, 19:25, 21:30, 22:14, photograph" [1] - 50:10 103:17, 105:14 OC [5] - 20:30, 84:18, 74:16, 82:9, 82:15, 23:2, 23:14, 24:14, photographing [1] - 42:2 paint [1] - 38:23 85:19, 89:11, 89:15 83:7, 83:9, 85:2, 85:19, 25:23, 25:24, 27:1, photographs [1] - 40:6 painting [1] - 38:11 occasion [2] - 2:8, 2:12 88:15, 88:16, 88:25, 27:2, 27:12, 27:15, photography [1] - 38:12 89:1, 91:2, 92:28, paper [7] - 22:17, 26:1, occasionally [1] - 19:25 29:20, 30:12, 30:19, phrase [1] - 33:14 94:25, 97:11, 100:8, 26:25, 88:5, 94:28, occasions [7] - 13:4, 30:21, 31:1, 31:5, PI [2] - 101:29, 102:20 100:17, 100:18, 101:28, 97:14, 105:6 31:13, 38:23, 40:3, 22:5, 52:8, 67:3, 89:25, pick [3] - 21:16, 21:18, papers [4] - 85:9, 88:1, 90:6, 109:23 102:13, 104:24, 107:30, 41:1, 43:16, 44:18, 37:1 109:5, 109:7, 110:1 88:6, 97:12 45:2, 45:6, 45:29, occur [1] - 67:17 picked [1] - 20:30 one's [1] - 47:9 parallel [1] - 56:4 49:16, 49:17, 49:18, occurred [3] - 67:16, picture [4] - 12:13, 12:16, ones [1] - 15:27 paramilitaries [1] - 97:3 69:11, 70:2 49:21, 49:29, 54:24, 49:20, 87:3 onwards [1] - 24:10 pardon [3] - 77:21, 54:29, 55:5, 56:19, occurs [1] - 111:21 piece [8] - 37:17, 39:6, opened [2] - 96:4, 96:7 105:24, 111:20 63:26, 64:11, 65:4, October [1] - 54:19 41:27, 82:14, 88:5, opening [1] - 9:9 Paris [2] - 95:16, 97:7 66:7, 66:16, 66:24, OF [2] - 1:1, 112:12 94:28, 96:1, 96:26 operated [1] - 103:7 park [4] - 9:7, 76:27, 79:6, 66:26, 66:29, 67:28, offhand [2] - 46:30, 47:7 pieces [1] - 40:21 operating [1] - 6:24 98:21 70:6, 70:8, 70:10, 80:6, Office [1] - 91:5 pinpointing [2] - 11:20 operation [16] - 14:24, part [14] - 8:12, 9:5, 9:27, 84:17, 84:21, 85:19, office [1] - 88:26 pint [3] - 34:21, 64:1, 64:2 15:1, 17:23, 18:1, 10:19, 27:29, 33:11, 87:29, 89:26, 90:3, officer [9] - 23:16, 54:13, pints [2] - 34:21, 63:24 18:23, 18:24, 19:28, 40:24, 40:26, 82:12, 92:4, 92:17, 95:9, 59:6, 81:8, 89:15, 95:7, pipe [2] - 40:22, 40:23 20:5, 20:6, 22:18, 25:4, 92:8, 97:12, 101:30, 97:28, 100:3, 100:14, 96:9, 99:1, 104:21 pistol [1] - 90:2 25:16, 54:12, 92:6, 102:2, 107:1 100:19, 100:29, 100:30, Officer [2] - 17:19, 104:19 place [10] - 6:28, 8:2, 8:3, 92:7, 103:12 participated [1] - 109:22 101:3, 101:21, 101:22, officers [11] - 6:16, 7:1, 19:18, 78:21, 80:5, operations [10] - 7:9, participating [1] - 103:9 101:26, 101:28, 102:8, 8:20, 11:13, 14:18, 87:11, 101:6, 102:21, 22:10, 33:13, 33:16, Participating [1] - 101:29 102:15, 102:23, 102:24, 17:19, 20:2, 64:29, 109:2 89:24, 89:26, 92:2, particular [4] - 5:22, 102:25, 103:13, 109:16, 92:21, 93:28, 97:30 places [3] - 9:3, 19:2, 92:3, 92:4, 92:10 32:20, 68:22, 91:2 109:18, 109:22 offices [1] - 44:30 27:2 opportunity [4] - 2:7, particularly [1] - 24:2 people's [6] - 17:10, official [3] - 14:27, plaintiff [2] - 62:2, 62:6 25:22, 29:16, 29:18 partner [1] - 16:29 18:22, 35:10, 39:9, 104:18, 107:9 planned [7] - 17:11, 20:6, options [2] - 33:19, 33:26 parts [1] - 28:14 67:1, 87:26 often [1] - 46:25 20:12, 98:9, 99:3, 99:5, orchestrated [1] - 61:23 party [2] - 32:20, 32:21 percent [1] - 95:10 OK [8] - 77:16, 78:15, 111:7 order [3] - 75:25, 107:1, pass [2] - 33:21, 33:22 perhaps [3] - 47:15, 78:19, 78:20, 79:30, planning [1] - 81:22 107:2 passed [8] - 1:23, 2:9, 56:14, 71:28 80:26, 82:29, 83:13 plastic [1] - 82:15 ordinary [3] - 8:16, 32:26, 9:22, 31:4, 78:11, period [7] - 19:1, 21:20, old [1] - 15:19 play [1] - 46:19 50:25 78:16, 92:14, 104:22 21:22, 23:25, 43:3, Oliver [17] - 4:7, 4:24, players [3] - 66:5, 66:16, organisation [1] - 60:17 passing [3] - 64:30, 96:4, 111:14, 111:21 4:29, 65:11, 67:15, 109:25 outline [1] - 88:19 103:28 permanently [1] - 64:10 69:1, 69:7, 69:25, 70:1, pleases [1] - 75:19 person [33] - 5:9, 5:22, 70:18, 71:1, 71:15, outs [2] - 58:28, 58:29 past [5] - 2:4, 14:21, 55:8, 10:11, 11:29, 12:6, pleasure [1] - 90:19 78:25, 85:14, 95:30, outside [3] - 8:17, 76:16, 61:25 12:10, 13:16, 13:20, plus [1] - 88:14 96:17, 97:21 91:12 Patrick [18] - 65:1, 77:3, 13:25, 21:26, 22:24, point [6] - 9:1, 56:15, overrule [1] - 57:1 78:5, 79:11, 79:15, Oliver's [1] - 96:23 26:25, 30:15, 30:21, 67:7, 76:29, 95:14, overrun [1] - 89:30 79:23, 80:13, 80:17, Omagh [7] - 23:28, 23:30, 31:17, 39:13, 42:29, 98:25 overshoot [1] - 98:26 81:18, 81:19, 81:21, 24:5, 33:11, 86:1, 86:2, 49:9, 50:25, 51:5, 54:1, pointing [1] - 66:27 overstate [3] - 34:23, 84:2, 84:28, 85:21, 86:3 56:20, 60:27, 80:3, points [2] - 9:4, 82:17 34:26, 34:28 89:9, 99:4, 103:30, Ombudsman [8] - 33:10, 81:7, 81:20, 82:13, police [32] - 12:9, 15:15, Owen [5] - 76:24, 76:29, 104:10 33:17, 52:1, 93:15, 87:19, 88:25, 89:10, 15:20, 15:23, 16:6, 105:11, 106:1, 106:3 Patsy [4] - 76:29, 87:4, 93:20, 94:3, 94:5 16:8, 17:9, 17:25, 88:24, 89:3 90:24, 95:2, 101:9 Ombudsman's [3] - 51:8, own [25] - 3:26, 10:1, person's [1] - 30:16 17:28, 17:30, 19:5, 51:12, 93:17 10:23, 10:28, 11:9, pattern [1] - 24:17 personal [4] - 10:23, 23:13, 24:8, 25:4, 25:5, 16:3, 17:9, 18:11, patterns [2] - 24:16, Omeath [9] - 3:19, 4:5, 11:9, 18:11, 55:23 25:11, 49:5, 49:7, 4:6, 4:13, 4:14, 4:23, 18:19, 19:24, 34:23, 24:18 personality [2] - 89:17, 49:29, 52:1, 54:13, 35:26, 36:12, 42:14, pause [1] - 95:29 8:19, 20:21, 108:12 100:7 59:6, 60:12, 64:29, 42:15, 42:17, 47:9, pay [3] - 52:19, 103:22, ON [1] - 1:1 90:4, 90:9, 90:16,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 10
90:20, 91:5, 94:17, progress [1] - 75:1 98:20, 99:7, 103:10, 51:23, 51:24, 51:28, 79:3, 81:2, 83:28, 94:19, 109:14 projectile [1] - 98:24 106:15, 107:8, 107:23 66:10, 77:13, 83:14, 83:29, 85:27, 88:19, Police [3] - 42:6, 90:7, promised [1] - 48:25 puts [1] - 96:16 94:8, 95:19, 95:27, 89:17, 93:8, 93:14, 102:22 promote [5] - 44:9, 44:14, putting [4] - 27:18, 44:8, 96:26, 108:1 95:16, 97:27, 97:28, policeman [4] - 89:11, 44:16, 44:22, 63:10 44:18, 105:11 readers [1] - 91:27 103:24 91:9, 91:10, 92:17 promoting [2] - 43:22, reading [1] - 66:11 relaxed [1] - 70:16 policemen [3] - 90:10, 44:23 Q reads [1] - 96:1 released [3] - 23:3, 59:4, 90:13, 91:8 properly [2] - 28:19, ready [2] - 1:5, 56:25 76:13 quality [1] - 39:21 politics [1] - 31:2 64:16 real [5] - 2:5, 5:21, 5:24, relevance [4] - 55:7, 57:1, quarter [2] - 72:8, 72:13 Pollen [1] - 38:1 property [1] - 50:15 6:15, 68:26 57:4, 68:22 question-mark [1] - polygraph [1] - 87:15 proposal [1] - 111:5 Real [2] - 25:1, 104:1 relevant [18] - 2:9, 7:20, 16:30 portion [3] - 51:29, 94:7, proposing [1] - 76:5 real-named [1] - 6:15 13:6, 14:30, 18:18, questioned [4] - 23:1, 95:16 propulsion [1] - 98:23 realise [3] - 2:3, 2:5, 20:18, 32:20, 51:15, 77:18, 93:24, 93:25 position [12] - 1:27, 4:21, prosperous [1] - 112:5 50:26 55:11, 56:29, 56:30, questioning [2] - 65:14, 5:17, 10:7, 14:7, 18:6, protected [2] - 24:14, realised [2] - 93:19, 93:25 57:27, 65:15, 65:17, 88:6 20:9, 20:27, 27:5, 33:1, 24:27 really [22] - 3:1, 13:24, 69:29, 69:30 questions [24] - 1:6, 91:15, 93:1 protection [2] - 18:11, 18:12, 19:9, 19:26, reliable [2] - 69:16, 70:22 33:30, 34:9, 55:6, positive [1] - 95:5 18:19 21:8, 21:20, 26:27, religion [1] - 53:15 56:21, 56:26, 57:8, possession [2] - 4:22, protracted [1] - 23:25 27:18, 44:23, 47:18, remain [1] - 53:10 57:9, 58:10, 59:15, 15:5 proud [1] - 89:22 55:16, 64:14, 64:16, remember [41] - 6:24, 71:22, 74:4, 76:20, possible [4] - 6:28, 6:30, provide [4] - 4:8, 16:19, 68:23, 72:1, 72:17, 9:19, 15:22, 17:1, 86:18, 86:20, 86:25, 20:4, 108:7 29:24, 30:8 72:30, 75:22, 77:15, 18:10, 22:6, 26:10, 87:27, 87:29, 87:30, possibly [2] - 88:8, provided [5] - 13:6, 98:2, 108:28 26:18, 27:22, 29:6, 88:9, 92:25, 96:20, 109:24 30:10, 76:24, 76:26, reason [7] - 13:9, 13:21, 29:10, 33:14, 37:22, 110:1, 110:19 Post [1] - 91:5 78:2 28:27, 62:30, 63:2, 42:21, 42:25, 43:20, queue [1] - 56:19 posted [1] - 97:4 Provisional [6] - 16:17, 71:16, 75:16 44:3, 45:17, 46:14, quick [1] - 108:11 postman [2] - 91:4, 91:5 59:3, 60:30, 78:12, reasonable [1] - 75:25 46:15, 46:24, 46:28, quicker [1] - 7:4 pounds [1] - 105:10 78:17, 83:17 reasons [2] - 52:2, 67:11 47:7, 50:2, 54:20, quite [13] - 6:14, 20:3, 70:27, 71:3, 83:1, 83:2, powder [2] - 30:25, 32:4 pseudonym [3] - 5:22, recede [5] - 35:19, 42:28, 20:22, 23:24, 42:7, practice [2] - 42:14, 42:16 66:20, 107:7 43:4, 43:13, 44:8 84:6, 91:9, 91:11, 44:3, 50:27, 55:23, 93:27, 95:16, 95:18, precisely [1] - 26:17 PSNI [1] - 81:11 receded [1] - 35:20 64:22, 70:21, 72:17, 96:20, 96:22, 97:20, presence [2] - 17:9, 17:18 psychiatric [1] - 34:14 receding [1] - 43:5 92:19, 112:7 108:19 present [8] - 55:9, 57:6, psychologist [2] - 34:16, receive [1] - 106:23 quizzing [1] - 93:21 remit [1] - 55:22 61:12, 63:28, 77:8, 93:11 received [4] - 106:13, quote [1] - 51:19 remorse [2] - 54:23, 77:24, 78:6, 78:29 psychopath [1] - 90:23 106:14, 106:26, 110:10 quoted [2] - 35:26, 51:13 60:26 presented [1] - 51:4 pub [5] - 9:12, 78:28, receiving [3] - 85:4, 85:7, quoting [1] - 107:23 repeat [1] - 78:13 preserve [4] - 47:3, 47:5, 80:27, 80:30, 85:28 85:8 repeated [1] - 2:18 47:14, 48:3 public [10] - 17:20, 27:20, reckoned [1] - 91:6 report [5] - 24:1, 51:8, press [5] - 35:27, 36:1, 35:13, 43:28, 43:30, R recognise [1] - 40:16 [12] 51:12, 51:27, 51:29 36:3, 37:1, 39:28 44:4, 50:25, 59:6, 90:9, radio [5] - 15:16, 15:24, record - 17:30, 18:1, reported [1] - 13:14 presume [1] - 109:21 100:9 27:27, 27:28, 28:4 33:3, 35:8, 49:28, 65:27, 100:9, 101:27, reports [4] - 91:24, 91:25, pretty [1] - 25:3 publication [1] - 38:5 radios [3] - 16:1, 38:15, 91:27 prevent [1] - 100:3 publicise [1] - 44:9 38:16 102:29, 103:2, 103:27, 106:29 represent [1] - 34:6 price [4] - 49:10, 104:10, publicity [1] - 63:10 RAFFERTY [14] - 55:15, representation [3] - 106:11 published [8] - 23:12, 56:23, 57:13, 64:13, recorded [6] - 16:6, 16:8, 72:18, 74:15, 75:15 primarily [1] - 109:11 48:4, 48:5, 48:8, 48:10, 64:27, 72:5, 72:15, 16:9, 17:8, 17:17, 18:10 representative [2] - printed [1] - 29:27 94:13, 107:19, 108:4 73:9, 86:22, 86:28, recorder [1] - 101:26 94:25, 94:27 printer [1] - 31:23 pulled [3] - 8:19, 79:6, 86:30, 97:27, 106:20, recording [1] - 18:6 reproduced [1] - 97:5 prison [12] - 1:17, 65:22, 91:6 107:11 recordings [4] - 17:14, Republic [9] - 7:14, 9:23, 65:23, 65:24, 66:3, pump [1] - 9:13 Rafferty [2] - 57:18, 86:23 17:15, 17:16, 17:18 9:29, 30:19, 32:2, 91:1, 66:4, 84:12, 84:19, purchase [1] - 100:1 raise [1] - 104:2 records [2] - 33:6, 66:3 100:15, 108:20 84:20, 84:23, 84:30, purchased [1] - 87:12 rang [1] - 90:4 recounting [1] - 68:13 republican [1] - 80:5 85:1 purportedly [1] - 108:4 ranging [1] - 55:25 red [1] - 99:9 require [1] - 75:14 prisoner [1] - 80:3 purpose [2] - 64:17, rank [1] - 91:15 red-handed [1] - 99:9 required [1] - 74:11 private [1] - 84:4 103:11 rarely [1] - 13:13 reference [2] - 3:5, 9:18 rescued [1] - 64:8 privy [1] - 104:14 purposes [1] - 36:28 rather [1] - 18:7 referred [7] - 42:18, Research [2] - 26:3, problem [5] - 13:17, pursuing [2] - 29:8, 48:23 Ravensdale [1] - 20:20 75:15, 81:27, 109:29, 109:30, 110:2, 110:9 43:25 16:21, 44:19, 44:20, push [1] - 98:24 RE [1] - 107:15 regiment [1] - 84:27 resolved [2] - 52:23, 44:21 put [36] - 16:29, 17:25, re [1] - 55:26 registered [3] - 30:17, 52:24 problems [1] - 53:27 20:16, 22:16, 32:23, re-examination [1] - respect [1] - 55:6 proceed [1] - 66:6 42:17, 43:8, 70:14, 55:26 30:30, 31:18 registrar [1] - 106:22 respectfully [2] - 55:23, proceeded [1] - 82:16 76:21, 77:27, 78:2, RE-EXAMINED [1] - 55:27 proceedings [7] - 56:4, 78:15, 79:1, 79:18, 107:15 relates [1] - 6:2 [2] respond [1] - 112:9 56:8, 60:14, 62:27, 80:9, 80:26, 81:12, read [23] - 18:16, 43:20, relating - 105:3, 108:8 response [1] - 110:1 68:25, 72:18, 72:21 81:30, 82:3, 82:13, 49:25, 51:10, 51:11, relation [26] - 2:13, 3:6, responsible [2] - 81:4, process [1] - 35:25 82:16, 82:17, 84:22, 51:12, 51:17, 51:18, 12:30, 18:21, 21:5, 93:29 programme [4] - 27:27, 85:22, 86:15, 95:19, 51:20, 51:21, 51:22, 23:22, 32:25, 32:29, 28:4, 28:8, 28:15 95:20, 96:22, 98:10, 74:13, 74:14, 78:21, rest [3] - 26:27, 42:30,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 11
72:21 Saturday [1] - 90:11 57:26, 75:3 sign [1] - 76:7 106:5, 106:20, 111:16 restricter [1] - 98:20 saved [4] - 35:9, 97:30, sell [1] - 103:11 signal [1] - 99:29 sort [7] - 21:26, 21:30, restricters [1] - 98:11 98:6, 98:11 selling [4] - 85:4, 85:7, signed [1] - 107:5 27:25, 30:23, 30:27, result [3] - 24:24, 24:26, saw [2] - 37:3, 47:15 85:8, 103:13 significance [2] - 68:26, 74:9, 80:7 70:23 saws [1] - 109:1 semtex [1] - 99:10 109:3 sorts [1] - 101:3 resume [1] - 74:6 scale [1] - 29:23 senior [7] - 54:13, 59:6, significant [1] - 68:11 sought [1] - 74:26 RESUMED [1] - 1:1 scam [3] - 29:25, 30:3, 87:17, 87:18, 87:19, similar [1] - 87:15 sounds [1] - 100:25 retainer [1] - 103:18 30:22 88:25, 91:17 simply [1] - 56:15 source [2] - 25:23, 70:22 retired [1] - 99:21 scandalous [1] - 97:6 sense [1] - 55:16 single [1] - 89:28 South [9] - 24:28, 31:28, returned [2] - 6:4, 91:10 scanners [1] - 15:12 sent [6] - 60:23, 61:5, Sinn [1] - 101:12 32:18, 32:26, 32:28, returning [1] - 96:3 Scappaticci [47] - 21:7, 61:13, 61:15, 91:2, Siochana [1] - 30:20 32:30, 89:2, 108:17, revelled [1] - 91:21 23:8, 23:20, 34:7, 36:7, 108:4 sir.. [1] - 51:25 109:24 rich [2] - 11:14, 81:24 36:15, 36:20, 36:21, sentence [2] - 84:13, sit [9] - 7:1, 11:1, 70:14, south [1] - 19:23 right-hand [4] - 87:18, 36:22, 36:24, 36:25, 107:3 80:4, 80:6, 80:8, 92:8, space [1] - 5:7 87:20, 89:3, 89:4 55:19, 55:24, 57:14, sentenced [2] - 99:14, 92:9, 111:6 speaking [2] - 29:28, Rights [1] - 60:16 58:10, 58:13, 61:1, 106:30 site [2] - 8:27, 42:25 29:29 rights [1] - 37:3 61:26, 62:7, 62:12, separate [1] - 53:7 sites [1] - 49:18 special [1] - 80:7 ringing [3] - 90:7, 90:9, 62:27, 63:3, 63:13, separated [1] - 63:8 siting [1] - 31:30 Special [24] - 6:25, 6:29, 90:19 63:17, 64:5, 65:3, September [3] - 28:1, sitting [7] - 27:1, 74:7, 6:30, 10:16, 10:18, rings [1] - 62:15 65:11, 66:19, 67:9, 97:15, 107:19 81:9, 90:11, 111:2, 10:22, 10:24, 10:25, rip [1] - 109:9 67:18, 68:5, 68:14, sequence [1] - 96:20 111:8, 111:17 10:27, 10:29, 11:3, rise [1] - 72:2 68:18, 68:19, 68:20, Sergeant [2] - 20:24, situation [2] - 52:15, 11:8, 11:10, 11:13, riser [1] - 101:1 68:21, 69:2, 69:12, 32:30 83:27 12:9, 26:23, 30:17, Road [4] - 8:19, 20:20, 69:13, 69:27, 69:28, series [1] - 66:7 six [1] - 80:22 30:18, 92:12, 92:15, 20:21, 79:9 70:18, 70:26, 71:9, serious [2] - 74:17, 80:3 skirts [1] - 91:12 93:27, 97:29, 100:5 71:13, 75:2, 87:27 road [19] - 9:4, 19:30, servants [1] - 29:3 slipped [1] - 11:29 specific [2] - 88:18, 99:30 Scappaticci/'Steak [1] - 20:16, 20:21, 20:23, Service [1] - 97:12 small [1] - 82:14 specifically [4] - 24:6, 36:1 22:13, 42:8, 79:6, service [2] - 70:22, 83:8 smoking [1] - 100:18 34:10, 59:26, 108:30 scene [1] - 4:14 79:10, 79:11, 79:14, serving [1] - 84:13 smugglers [2] - 103:11, spoonful [1] - 82:18 79:21, 79:23, 79:30, scientific [1] - 100:2 set [10] - 31:6, 37:14, 103:13 spot [1] - 9:6 scores [1] - 88:5 80:1 37:15, 42:10, 42:12, so.. [1] - 69:8 spotlight [1] - 71:10 Scotland [1] - 74:30 roads [1] - 20:18 43:7, 52:7, 99:29, SO19 [1] - 102:23 spy [3] - 43:21, 96:28, Scottish [2] - 74:27, 90:1 roadway [1] - 80:1 99:30, 102:22 socialise [1] - 63:23 97:4 scrapped [1] - 25:16 role [6] - 46:19, 87:6, settle [1] - 53:1 socialising [1] - 84:3 Squad [3] - 12:4, 12:10, screen [2] - 106:16, 87:8, 88:12, 88:13, settled [1] - 32:10 soldier [1] - 90:1 104:23 110:30 88:19 settling [2] - 52:27, 52:29 soldiers [1] - 99:7 St [4] - 18:26, 18:28, sculpting [1] - 38:11 102:5, 102:9 rolled [1] - 88:1 several [3] - 51:13, 66:16, solicitor [8] - 18:17, rolling [1] - 9:7 sealed [1] - 82:18 97:2 44:17, 47:21, 50:23, stage [41] - 1:28, 2:25, Ronnie [2] - 70:22, 110:2 searcher [1] - 82:11 share [1] - 24:22 50:27, 52:13, 74:15, 3:9, 3:24, 3:30, 4:15, room [4] - 28:11, 39:4, seated [2] - 1:4, 74:3 shared [4] - 32:20, 32:28, 111:16 5:1, 5:3, 7:3, 8:6, 8:21, 8:28, 9:17, 10:20, 67:10, 81:9 second [3] - 51:2, 73:6, 32:30, 92:20 solicitor's [1] - 42:14 10:21, 10:23, 12:14, rooms [1] - 22:16 95:29 shed [1] - 39:4 Solicitors [1] - 76:22 12:15, 12:17, 13:24, Rostrevor [2] - 91:4, secondly [2] - 72:15, SHEEHAN [2] - 76:5, solicitors [1] - 60:2 75:23 13:29, 14:2, 15:14, 91:14 76:11 someone [10] - 2:25, 17:22, 18:15, 21:13, rot [1] - 20:6 secret [2] - 26:3, 43:25 sheet [1] - 22:17 12:8, 16:9, 18:27, 22:12, 22:28, 22:30, rotated [1] - 5:12 sections [1] - 51:14 ship [1] - 30:26 22:15, 45:3, 81:25, 24:29, 25:14, 27:8, rough [1] - 108:23 secure [1] - 16:2 shoot [2] - 91:4, 99:20 87:10, 87:13 29:12, 30:18, 47:15, rubber [1] - 109:8 securely [1] - 25:14 shooting [3] - 91:25, sometime [8] - 1:20, 72:17, 93:14, 100:17, rubbish [1] - 39:3 Security [6] - 21:5, 21:8, 91:27, 96:8 2:29, 14:20, 14:21, 101:6, 101:28, 104:2 rubbished [1] - 97:3 23:1, 85:18, 87:9, 87:26 shop [1] - 99:18 14:29, 22:7, 29:25, stages [1] - 15:15 RUC [18] - 5:28, 6:3, 6:15, security [3] - 10:4, 70:22, short [3] - 64:9, 98:26, 104:27 Stake [1] - 63:4 6:16, 6:25, 6:28, 8:19, 81:23 107:17 sometimes [18] - 5:4, stand [2] - 9:27, 32:12 10:19, 10:29, 15:13, security-force [1] - 10:4 shortly [5] - 1:20, 7:21, 9:13, 9:15, 15:14, stands [1] - 24:20 17:18, 18:4, 64:8, see [36] - 10:10, 16:19, 14:20, 14:21, 83:5 15:21, 22:23, 24:19, start [3] - 72:7, 72:8, 89:11, 94:14, 98:10, 22:26, 24:16, 24:18, shot [9] - 20:7, 20:8, 33:15, 65:4, 67:1, 98:19, 101:25 26:15, 27:11, 28:1, 89:30, 90:13, 90:14, 88:24, 100:6, 100:17, 86:30 started [5] - 12:3, 14:28, run [5] - 10:10, 18:25, 29:19, 29:20, 32:16, 90:18, 91:8, 97:8, 100:28, 101:5, 102:5, 91:7, 109:27 34:24, 34:30, 35:2, 107:28 102:6, 108:27 90:18, 100:11, 105:26 state [1] - 97:6 rung [2] - 14:17, 20:25 35:4, 35:11, 42:18, showed [2] - 9:10, 99:6 somewhere [1] - 83:26 State [6] - 24:27, 52:11, running [2] - 2:26, 91:23 43:30, 44:6, 44:19, showing [1] - 44:18 soon [1] - 20:6 55:6, 57:4, 57:18, shown [1] - 48:27 sophisticated [1] - 15:28 52:27, 52:29, 62:28, 61:22, 62:15, 62:21, 62:29 S shows [1] - 43:25 sorry [24] - 5:30, 8:27, statement [29] - 14:2, 69:14, 71:4, 71:26, Siamese [1] - 87:22 10:12, 12:25, 16:12, safe [1] - 87:11 74:26, 76:9, 80:29, 54:3, 54:4, 54:9, 54:10, sic [3] - 44:28, 67:13, 16:23, 24:24, 26:7, safety [2] - 82:13, 97:1 99:27, 104:15, 111:29 111:9 28:18, 29:19, 55:4, 54:17, 54:22, 54:25, [4] seek [3] - 45:23, 46:7, 54:26, 58:6, 58:26, sample - 25:6, 104:9, sick [1] - 90:22 57:8, 57:29, 59:17, 104:22 74:27 59:1, 59:26, 60:3, 60:7, side [2] - 79:5, 79:17 66:1, 77:12, 80:3, 82:5, sat [1] - 78:24 seem [4] - 11:23, 47:16, 60:8, 60:15, 60:19, Sierra [1] - 96:5 83:10, 100:25, 104:16,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 12
60:20, 61:4, 61:9, 57:21, 61:22, 68:15, targeting [5] - 23:29, tied [1] - 41:1 86:17 61:13, 64:27, 74:23, 71:14 23:30, 24:2, 24:10, tilt [1] - 82:14 try [6] - 35:19, 35:21, 75:2, 75:23, 93:15, suggested [2] - 12:10, 24:24 timer [2] - 9:16, 82:12 37:14, 37:15, 81:24, 108:3, 108:8 21:1 tarmac [1] - 79:7 tipped [1] - 100:16 104:2 Statement" [1] - 61:8 suggesting [6] - 44:6, tasked [1] - 99:19 title [1] - 107:9 trying [20] - 7:15, 21:21, statement" [1] - 61:9 62:21, 62:22, 62:26, taunt [1] - 90:4 TO [1] - 1:10 23:15, 36:10, 36:29, statements [3] - 22:21, 71:4, 107:23 team [10] - 1:6, 23:12, tobacco [1] - 100:14 37:2, 42:7, 42:27, 43:3, 72:19, 107:8 suggestion [3] - 44:7, 23:13, 48:24, 72:16, today [5] - 51:13, 105:14, 43:12, 43:14, 44:7, states [2] - 96:29, 106:29 44:21, 63:14 87:26, 92:18, 93:2, 105:17, 106:6, 106:9 44:9, 44:14, 44:22, station [4] - 14:18, 20:25, suing [2] - 48:25, 55:18 93:27, 111:28 together [6] - 27:25, 48:9, 59:28, 59:30, 21:17 summer [5] - 1:18, 2:30, teams [2] - 19:30, 20:16 61:23, 63:8, 81:28, 64:22, 86:8 Station [1] - 90:8 4:3, 5:15, 6:5 teatime [1] - 80:22 82:3, 104:4 tube [2] - 82:16, 82:18 stations [1] - 90:16 sums [1] - 48:20 technical [2] - 18:3, Tom [18] - 4:24, 4:29, tubing [1] - 82:15 status [2] - 101:29, Sunday [12] - 29:24, 101:26 65:11, 67:15, 69:1, Tuesday [2] - 111:6, 102:20 29:26, 29:27, 29:28, technical-support [1] - 69:7, 69:25, 70:1, 111:9 stay [1] - 101:2 32:8, 32:12, 32:14, 101:26 70:17, 71:1, 71:15, turn [2] - 28:22, 88:24 stayed [1] - 80:21 42:18, 43:18, 44:2, telephone [4] - 15:9, 78:25, 85:14, 95:30, turned [2] - 63:19, 79:15 step [2] - 82:8 97:5, 97:14 27:29, 110:10 96:17, 96:23, 97:21, turns [1] - 20:6 stick [2] - 41:16, 52:9 supplied [7] - 25:5, television [3] - 83:14, 108:22 TV [3] - 83:5, 83:17 still [12] - 2:16, 3:28, 9:7, 30:16, 51:30, 77:4, 91:23, 91:26 took [9] - 10:30, 11:11, twelve [1] - 5:8 10:12, 10:14, 48:10, 104:21, 105:2 ten [5] - 14:21, 15:29, 41:7, 78:21, 79:14, twenty [1] - 48:1 48:11, 53:10, 53:12, supply [3] - 30:29, 43:18, 53:8, 71:24 82:20, 89:30, 90:1, twice [1] - 69:14 74:22, 85:4, 92:26 78:5 tendency [1] - 109:8 102:2 twin [1] - 87:22 stolen [6] - 41:9, 41:12, supplying [1] - 95:11 tends [4] - 36:9, 36:16, tools [3] - 108:28, 109:1, two [40] - 5:5, 6:15, 6:30, 49:2, 49:6, 49:19, 50:24 support [8] - 18:4, 54:3, 36:23, 36:30 109:13 8:20, 11:1, 14:21, stood [1] - 81:8 54:6, 58:6, 58:26, 59:1, Tenerife [1] - 86:2 top [3] - 43:25, 89:1, 17:13, 20:2, 22:5, stop [4] - 9:5, 49:16, 51:1, 59:27, 101:26 term [2] - 38:22, 91:26 95:23 23:14, 25:7, 27:24, 102:26 supporting [1] - 54:7 terms [7] - 14:12, 17:13, top-secret [1] - 43:25 30:25, 31:1, 31:12, stopped [3] - 8:22, 24:8, suppose [5] - 17:13, 19:28, 20:24, 55:22, total [2] - 5:10, 86:16 33:19, 34:21, 41:20, 98:21 20:4, 32:16, 55:16, 87:23, 94:1 totally [3] - 39:8, 63:11, 46:26, 51:14, 63:28, store [4] - 8:8, 8:11, 8:13, 112:2 terrible [2] - 29:21, 35:8 88:17 64:29, 65:26, 67:12, 8:27 supremacy [1] - 11:11 terribly [1] - 14:30 touch [5] - 20:28, 20:29, 72:2, 72:8, 72:13, stories [5] - 26:2, 85:5, surname [1] - 17:1 terrorist [9] - 24:30, 49:17, 101:10, 108:28 74:17, 76:8, 82:11, 85:7, 85:8, 85:9 surveillance [1] - 102:25 25:21, 27:16, 43:29, tout [2] - 22:8, 24:13 82:16, 90:14, 91:8, story [17] - 8:25, 30:9, survived [1] - 97:2 43:30, 44:5, 89:13, towards [1] - 23:28 92:2, 92:22, 98:15, 30:12, 36:1, 36:5, suspected [1] - 87:10 102:23, 109:27 trace [1] - 102:25 99:9, 107:17, 111:7 44:29, 45:1, 45:29, suspicion [5] - 22:7, testimony [1] - 75:17 trading [1] - 31:26 two-kilo [1] - 99:9 46:3, 47:2, 47:14, 22:9, 22:29, 23:4, 23:5 texted [1] - 76:11 train [1] - 21:17 type [4] - 38:13, 78:4, 47:17, 47:19, 47:23, swearing [1] - 81:5 that' [1] - 54:28 trained [1] - 87:13 81:20, 98:13 48:7, 67:5, 97:11 swearing-in [1] - 81:5 THE [11] - 1:1, 34:2, trap [2] - 82:4, 82:10 types [3] - 7:15, 80:6, straight [2] - 18:25, 79:16 switch [1] - 82:14 73:11, 74:1, 76:18, treachery [2] - 106:10, 82:3 strange [1] - 25:24 switched [1] - 8:21 86:28, 107:15, 110:28, 106:11 straying [1] - 55:22 swore [1] - 81:7 112:12 treated [1] - 52:10 U street [1] - 104:11 sycophantic [1] - 112:3 theft [2] - 49:7, 105:3 treatment [1] - 34:14 UDR [4] - 91:4, 98:28, Street [2] - 38:1, 99:4 system [3] - 8:17, 15:17, themselves [2] - 6:8, 19:5 Tribunal [31] - 4:22, 15:5, 98:30, 99:1 streets [1] - 35:23 99:26 THEN [2] - 110:28, 112:12 17:8, 20:9, 36:26, UK [2] - 12:23, 103:7 stress [2] - 87:14, 88:10 systematically [1] - 33:15 there'd [1] - 9:4 48:18, 48:28, 50:20, ultimately [3] - 22:2, stuff [6] - 8:11, 31:9, systems [1] - 15:16 thereabouts [2] - 14:25, 51:3, 52:8, 54:12, 56:4, 22:29, 23:17 92:11, 92:14, 100:1, 27:21 57:3, 57:15, 57:27, unauthorised [1] - 49:11 102:10 therefore [9] - 32:28, 64:16, 64:28, 67:3, T under [10] - 22:7, 22:9, subject [2] - 93:17, 94:2 33:20, 35:23, 69:1, 67:14, 70:30, 72:29, t's [1] - 104:20 22:29, 23:4, 23:5, submit [12] - 37:17, 70:27, 75:14, 98:11, 74:10, 77:3, 80:2, 74:22, 75:20, 82:4, 37:23, 37:24, 37:25, tablet [3] - 25:2, 104:11, 98:22, 111:8 81:10, 84:29, 87:3, 104:22 82:10, 82:13 40:8, 40:9, 41:6, 41:7, thinking [5] - 18:12, 27:7, 93:7, 95:12, 108:4, undercover [1] - 43:22 41:13, 41:27, 42:12, tablets [7] - 25:1, 25:13, 40:27, 67:27, 67:28 108:24 104:5, 104:17, 104:24, understating [1] - 34:29 57:5 third [4] - 79:26, 90:24, TRIBUNAL [4] - 1:1, understood [3] - 11:18, submitted [2] - 37:29, 105:1, 105:3 91:9 73:11, 74:1, 112:12 tacks [1] - 82:16 23:27, 56:20 41:5 Thompson's [1] - 99:18 Tribunal's [1] - 110:25 talks [1] - 84:17 undertaking [2] - 74:27, submitting [2] - 40:6, threats [3] - 55:21, tried [4] - 12:17, 41:13, 75:23 42:15 tape [2] - 88:3, 88:4 106:13, 106:14 86:4, 95:21 unhappy [4] - 27:8, subsequently [4] - 4:6, tapes [4] - 17:30, 18:2, three [11] - 5:5, 14:22, troops [1] - 100:4 27:10, 27:11, 28:18 32:9, 93:24, 104:23 18:16, 18:18 20:18, 28:11, 28:13, trophy [1] - 90:2 unidentified [1] - 7:30 substantial [1] - 48:20 taping [4] - 17:27, 17:28, 30:25, 72:5, 90:10, trouble [2] - 21:29, 63:21 unit [9] - 18:4, 19:15, sued [1] - 32:8 17:29, 18:6 90:13, 91:13, 98:15 true [1] - 53:28 19:23, 26:3, 26:5, sugar [1] - 8:9 target [3] - 24:6, 96:5, throughout [3] - 3:26, trust [3] - 81:21, 81:26, 64:30, 99:7, 99:23, Sugar [1] - 99:19 98:23 21:25, 81:10 104:25 99:25 suggest [9] - 36:29, 47:1, targeted [4] - 16:14, thwarted [4] - 24:7, trusted [1] - 12:11 Unit [8] - 21:5, 21:8, 23:1, 52:22, 52:26, 56:11, 16:18, 24:24, 100:14 24:11, 98:10, 98:18 truth [3] - 61:19, 61:20,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 16 December 2011 - Day 68 13
26:3, 43:25, 85:19, W 95:15, 111:24, 111:29, year [8] - 7:25, 69:15, 87:9, 97:13 112:4 84:5, 84:6, 96:8, units [2] - 89:16, 99:24 wage [2] - 103:19, 103:20 wishes [1] - 111:25 107:19, 111:25, 111:30 Unity [2] - 96:3, 96:6 waited [1] - 10:4 WITHDREW [1] - 110:28 years [13] - 3:4, 15:22, unknown [1] - 105:22 waiting [1] - 55:5 witness [26] - 1:4, 4:27, 15:29, 24:12, 28:21, unless [1] - 5:11 Wales [1] - 74:28 11:27, 12:5, 16:22, 28:24, 43:22, 46:27, unnecessary [1] - 112:7 walk [2] - 9:8, 96:3 30:6, 33:30, 56:2, 49:5, 53:8, 92:13, unsophisticated [1] - walked [1] - 25:19 56:20, 57:9, 57:29, 106:27 15:27 walking [2] - 79:29, 59:12, 59:15, 59:18, years' [1] - 48:1 unsung [2] - 35:2, 35:4 105:22 64:23, 74:3, 75:16, yes.. [1] - 37:19 UNTIL [1] - 112:12 wall [3] - 9:25, 9:27, 39:4 75:17, 75:29, 76:6, yesterday [17] - 1:8, 1:29, untrue [2] - 62:21, 97:13 warehouse [2] - 31:30, 81:5, 81:8, 93:6, 94:30, 2:29, 7:12, 14:15, up [57] - 4:14, 8:23, 9:3, 103:5 105:17, 105:18 14:27, 16:5, 23:27, 9:8, 17:22, 20:25, Warner [2] - 44:27, 46:25 Witness [11] - 5:20, 12:3, 25:9, 26:22, 28:17, 20:30, 21:11, 21:15, Warrenpoint [1] - 91:13 12:22, 92:25, 92:28, 69:24, 101:15, 107:18, 21:16, 21:18, 22:19, WAS [4] - 34:2, 76:18, 93:14, 93:17, 97:30, 107:21, 107:25, 110:6 25:1, 30:30, 31:6, 86:28, 107:15 100:23, 103:27, 104:15 young [2] - 89:30, 90:14 33:10, 33:23, 33:25, Watch [1] - 60:17 WITNESS [5] - 34:2, yourself [20] - 13:9, 22:2, 37:1, 37:14, 37:15, watch [1] - 80:16 76:18, 86:28, 107:15, 23:4, 24:20, 26:26, 40:15, 42:10, 42:13, watched [2] - 55:15, 99:8 110:28 34:24, 34:30, 35:2, 42:17, 43:7, 52:7, watching [3] - 31:28, witness's [2] - 56:8, 35:11, 44:8, 44:9, 52:27, 52:30, 53:1, 31:29, 32:2 57:23 44:15, 44:16, 44:22, 54:30, 56:19, 60:28, water [1] - 25:19 witnesses [2] - 111:7, 47:22, 68:6, 81:27, 62:15, 63:20, 64:3, Water [3] - 1:22, 83:1, 111:23 86:23, 107:30, 109:30 72:18, 80:23, 82:10, 83:7 woman [2] - 53:27, 58:25 YouTube [1] - 28:2 82:18, 82:19, 82:21, weak [1] - 88:11 wondering [2] - 4:8, 15:8 82:24, 83:27, 88:1, weakness [1] - 22:25 woodpecker [1] - 15:17 Z 88:24, 88:29, 91:6, weapon [1] - 94:15 word [2] - 24:4, 39:26 zero [1] - 9:1 96:15, 98:10, 100:4, wear [1] - 108:27 words [2] - 62:6, 81:7 102:4, 102:9, 102:22, website [13] - 41:7, 42:10, workers [1] - 98:11 103:10, 103:26, 106:15 42:13, 42:15, 42:19, workload [1] - 72:22 £ up-and-under [1] - 82:10 43:8, 43:19, 43:21, world [4] - 36:1, 36:3, £10 [1] - 104:11 43:29, 83:5 43:24, 43:25, 95:27, £18 [1] - 100:26 worried [2] - 31:15, 44:13 V 96:27, 97:4 £18-million [1] - 102:30 websites [1] - 42:17 worry [3] - 44:12, 58:29, van [5] - 21:15, 85:16, £5 [2] - 25:2 week [3] - 80:17, 80:22, 108:28 85:17, 85:22, 88:2 £5,000 [2] - 49:11, 50:17 103:20 worth [3] - 100:26, 101:7, vans [1] - 98:21 weekly [1] - 29:21 101:8 various [7] - 8:2, 18:16, Ó weigh [1] - 22:24 wounded [2] - 91:8, 27:23, 28:7, 32:23, weight [1] - 101:8 91:10 Óglaigh [1] - 107:5 65:1, 68:13 well-being [1] - 62:16 writ [2] - 44:28, 67:13 VAT [4] - 30:22, 101:5, well-known [1] - 109:18 write [13] - 1:27, 3:14, 102:30 whatsoever [5] - 50:28, 4:20, 5:17, 5:23, 7:6, Viagra [9] - 25:1, 25:12, 51:7, 64:15, 103:27, 22:18, 22:21, 30:4, 103:24, 103:29, 103:30, 105:13 45:30, 46:18, 46:25, 104:5, 104:9, 105:1, whereabouts [1] - 69:3 94:27 105:3 whereby [2] - 78:22, writers [2] - 65:26, 67:12 vicariously [1] - 55:19 94:13 writes [7] - 4:27, 5:20, victims [3] - 27:16, 60:17, white [1] - 99:27 11:27, 16:22, 30:6, 94:26 whole [8] - 2:19, 7:8, 47:12, 94:30 victims' [4] - 13:16, writing [5] - 46:17, 46:24, 13:20, 13:25, 27:17 21:25, 28:23, 67:3, 71:3, 102:26, 109:15 47:1, 54:20, 68:26 Victoria [1] - 8:18 wide [1] - 55:25 written [4] - 16:26, 47:10, video [4] - 8:29, 9:8, 9:21, wide-ranging [1] - 55:25 50:2, 108:3 10:6 widespread [1] - 36:5 wrongly [3] - 54:15, videoed [3] - 9:9, 9:10, 108:8, 110:12 9:16 wife [20] - 53:5, 53:6, 53:12, 54:11, 54:13, wrote [6] - 45:13, 46:26, view [2] - 39:9, 55:10 56:8, 57:30, 60:11, 48:28, 49:23, 50:1, 50:7 views [4] - 6:29, 10:24, 60:27, 61:21, 62:15, www.explosive [1] - 11:10, 39:9 63:7, 63:8, 63:9, 63:12, 42:20 violence [1] - 27:16 63:27, 68:6, 68:25, www.explosive-art.com virtually [1] - 21:25 80:24 [1] - 42:20 visits [1] - 53:24 wife's [4] - 59:23, 60:2, voice [2] - 87:14, 88:10 61:11, 63:11 Y voluntarily [1] - 75:6 willing [2] - 25:2, 51:5 volunteers [2] - 91:21, Yates [3] - 30:2, 31:1, wires [2] - 40:29, 82:17 99:9 32:5 wise [1] - 15:21 yeah" [1] - 90:22 wish [6] - 57:1, 95:12,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd.