Tuesday Volume 497 20 October 2009 No. 127

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 20 October 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 755 20 OCTOBER 2009 756

with the E3 plus 3 was a start to the essential process of House of Commons engagement; there now needs to be intensive and serious follow-up. Tuesday 20 October 2009 Jane Kennedy: Does my right hon. Friend share the frustration of many ordinary people in Iran—they have The House met at half-past Two o’clock shared this with me by e-mail—with the regime’s complete refusal to engage with the international community on this issue? The regime is led by someone who not only PRAYERS denies the holocaust, but denies his own people a democratic outcome. Will my right hon. Friend consider what [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] unilateral steps the United Kingdom could take to increase the pressure on Iran to engage more positively?

BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS : My right hon. Friend makes an important point about the Iranian people, some 50 or LEEDS CITY COUNCIL BILL 60 per cent. of whom are under the age of 30. They Motion made, That the Bill be now considered. represent a country of great civilisation and education, and they have internet access, to pick up on her point. Hon. Members: Object. The requirements on the regime can best be understood Bill to be considered on Tuesday 27 October. by realising that there will never be a better time for Iran to engage with the international community in the search for what Iran proclaims to be its only aim: READING BOROUGH COUNCIL BILL civilian nuclear power. Motion made, That the Bill be now considered. The United Kingdom is proud to be at the heart of Hon. Members: Object. the international drive to establish normal relations between Iran and the international community over the Bill to be considered on Tuesday 27 October. nuclear file. However, I am sure my right hon. Friend will have seen the important announcement by the CITY OF WESTMINSTER BILL [LORDS] Treasury in respect of a financial sanction for one of Motion made, the banks that has been closely involved in proliferation- That so much of the Lords Message [12 October] as relates to related activities. That represents the sort of step that the City of Westminster Bill [Lords] be now considered. she is suggesting. That this House concurs with the Lords in their Resolution. —(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Mr. David Amess (Southend, West) (Con): With Austria’s leading energy company investing heavily in Iranian Hon. Members: Object. offshore and onshore oil, and with Germany being a big exporter to Iran, will the Secretary of State tell the To be considered on Thursday 22 October. House what pressure he is applying to our European partners to comply with sanctions in order to try to change the regime peacefully? Oral Answers to Questions David Miliband: I do not have to tell the hon. Gentleman just about the pressure on other European countries; I can point him to the fact that the European Union—all FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE 27 countries of it—has tougher sanctions than are required by the United Nations, which indicates how seriously Europe takes the issue. The Secretary of State was asked— Iran’s Nuclear Programme Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): May I welcome the leading role that Britain is taking in Europe 1. Jane Kennedy (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab): What on this issue? What discussions has the Foreign Secretary his latest assessment is of developments in Iran’s had with other partners in Europe about their taking nuclear programme; and if he will make a statement. further steps and bringing further economic sanctions [293902] to bear?

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth David Miliband: At this moment, we are engaged in a Affairs (David Miliband): Iran’s nuclear programme is critical phase of engagement with Iran. The President the leading threat to the non-proliferation regime. The of the United States has said that he wants to reassess latest International Atomic Energy Agency report says the situation at the end of the year, and he will do so that Iran has still not suspended its enrichment or with the international community. My hon. Friend is heavy-water-related activities and has failed to engage right to say that the dual track must be a dual track, in with the IAEA on the possible military dimensions. The that engagement takes place, but increased pressure can revelations about a secret site near Qom show Iran’s be brought to bear, as appropriate. At the E3 plus 3 disregard for its obligations to the IAEA and the United meeting that I chaired in New York in September, there Nations Security Council, and increase our concerns was agreement that we must pursue the dual track with about its intentions. The Geneva meeting on 1 October equal emphasis on both elements. 757 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 758

Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington and Chelsea) (Con): David Miliband: There is quite a lot of detail in this. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the missing link The Tehran research reactor proposal is an important in international efforts to achieve a diplomatic solution proposal, which would involve the export for development has, unfortunately, been the continuing reluctance of of the low-enriched uranium that Iran has established. Arab states to be prepared to put public pressure on It is a very important proposal. The best thing for me to Iran, despite their oft-repeated—in private—serious say is that it is good that Iran has said that in principle it reservations about Iran’s nuclear ambitions? Does he is interested in that proposal, but it needs to turn that agree that if the Arab states were to put public pressure in-principle interest into an agreement that gets that on Iran, that would make it much more likely that low-enriched uranium out of the country to be properly Russia and China would co-operate in the Security fabricated and developed. If that happens, we can be Council, and much less likely that the United States or absolutely clear—as Iran will be showing us not just by Israel would be tempted towards military intervention? word but by deed—that it is interested only in peaceful civilian purposes for its nuclear programme. This is an David Miliband: The right hon. and learned Gentleman important issue and I look forward to continuing to makes an important point. It is fair to say that that the discuss it with the House. thinking that he outlines explains the emphasis that we have put on the relationship between the E3 plus 3 and Tibet the Gulf Co-operation Council and other Arab states. A very important meeting took place in New York 2. Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): What the between the E3 plus 3 and the Arab states, led by the Government’s policy is on the status of Tibet; and if he GCC. The sort of international unanimity that he refers will make a statement. [293903] to is very important. People often talk, rightly, about the fears in Israel of the Iranian nuclear programme, The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth but he will know, as will the whole House, that those Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): We regard Tibet as part of fears are matched throughout the Arab world, which China, albeit as an autonomous region. Our interest is recognises the dangers of a nuclear arms race in the in long-term stability, which can be achieved through middle east of all places. respect for human rights and greater autonomy for Tibetans. We believe that substantive dialogue between Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): Will the the Chinese authorities and representatives of the Dalai Foreign Secretary acknowledge that Iran is still a signatory Lama is the best way to achieve this. to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and that that should be welcomed as a sign of at least an ability to Mr. Gray: May I first call the House’s attention to my negotiate? Will he also recognise that now is the time to entry in the Register of Members’ Interests, where I push for a nuclear-free middle east, which will of course record a recent visit to Tibet? During that visit I became require the disarmament of all nuclear states in the increasingly convinced that the Government’s change in region, including Israel, as a way of bringing about stance on the status of Tibet was quite correct. Tibet long-term peace and security? needs to be an integral part of the greater People’s Republic of China, albeit an entirely autonomous region. David Miliband: My hon. Friend will know that we Does not the Minister agree with me about two things? have voted consistently for the aspiration of a nuclear-free First, that the change of stance should have been announced middle east as part of a drive for nuclear disarmament to the House in an oral statement rather than sneaked around the world. However, I think that it is important out in a written statement, which meant that no one to bear in mind that although it is right to acknowledge could ask any questions about it. Secondly, I do not that Iran is a signatory to the NPT—and that is welcome— believe that much use was made of the leverage that signing is only the first step. Obeying the treaty’s injunctions could have been achieved by the UK Government’s and following its requirements should go with that change in stance to press the Chinese Government on signature. I hope that my hon. Friend will join me in human rights issues, both in Tibet and across the greater sending a united message from this House that Iran has People’s Republic. Does he— the hand of engagement outstretched towards it and that it will be treated as a normal country, not least in Mr. Speaker: Order. respect of civilian nuclear power, but that it must behave as a normal country would in its relations with the Mr. Lewis: In terms of leverage, the fact that I was the IAEA and the rest of the international community. first Minister to be invited by the Chinese Government to visit Tibet recently and that the all-party group, of Mr. (Aylesbury) (Con): Like the which the hon. Gentleman is a member, was also allowed Foreign Secretary, we hope that the talks in Vienna and encouraged to visit Tibet demonstrates that that today under the aegis of the IAEA are successful. Does shift in policy has enabled us to exercise significant he agree that we ought to be concerned at the indications influence over the Chinese Government. Let us be clear from the Iranian state broadcast and others in recent about the issues. It is extremely important—we have days that the offer to send material abroad for enrichment made this clear to China—that although we recognise might not actually be delivered? Does he agree that it is the economic and social progress that is evident in important that the Group of Six make it very clear to Tibet, there are still major concerns about human rights. Iran during these talks that any agreement has to involve The Chinese Government should begin immediate Iran’s existing stockpiles being taken abroad in return negotiations with the representatives of the Dalai Lama for nuclear fuel rods being supplied for scientific research, and encourage visits from other politicians, and from as well as immediate access for international inspectors journalists and opinion formers around the world, to to the facility at Qom? demonstrate a greater level of openness. There must 759 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 760 also be no equivocation on religious freedom, which is ensured that the free world remained free? It is a great enshrined in the constitution of China in relation to organisation that has done a great deal for our freedom Tibet. and liberty. Will he raise this matter with his counterparts in other countries to ensure that they are also investing Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): I welcome my in young people’s education about NATO? Will he meet hon. Friend’s visit to Tibet to get an understanding of a British delegation from NATO’s youth chapter— and a feel for what is happening there. Does he recognise that we will not solve the problem merely by having Mr. Speaker: Order. I have said this many times, but I MPs and Ministers visiting the country? What needs to shall say it once more: Members should ask one question, be dealt with is the intolerance shown towards the not two—and certainly not three. Tibetan people and the lack of freedom. What pressure can he put on the Chinese Government, as well as Mr. Lewis: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. First, speaking to the Dalai Lama? I agree with the hon. Gentleman about NATO’s central role in our national security, and in the relationship Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend raises an extremely important between the EU and the US. Of course we expect all point. Subsequent to my visit, my right hon. Friend the NATO members to make their fair contribution when it Foreign Secretary and I raised the issue of human rights comes to engaging young people and raising awareness violations with Dai Bigguo, the state councillor from among them. Finally, of course I would be willing to China, and I have also had a lengthy meeting with the meet a youth delegation. very able ambassador to China. Various issues need to be addressed: we must make sure that ethnic Tibetans Mr. David Crausby (Bolton, North-East) (Lab): Does benefit from the economic growth undoubtedly now my hon. Friend agree that educating young people taking place in Tibet, and that their language and about NATO’s future role is absolutely vital? What can culture are protected. In addition, we must ensure that he do to ensure that the future generation completely ethnic Tibetans have access to fair justice and that there understands the threat that faces us, and what NATO is genuine religious freedom, particularly in the monasteries. can effectively do to defend us? Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD): In 1904, Colonel Younghusband took British troops into Tibet. Mr. Lewis: I agree with my hon. Friend. It is very In 1947, those troops left and we recognised the Tibetan important that we do not fall for the myth that will be people’s right to self-determination. Why do this familiar to all hon. Members from their constituency Government not allow them that self-determination? responsibilities—that young people are somehow not Why are we not putting more pressure on the Chinese interested in politics or international affairs. All hon. Government to recognise that right? At present, we are Members who visit local schools and colleges know that exerting less pressure in that regard than we did in 1947. young people are incredibly interested in the issues that affect the world. The problem is that we have to demonstrate Mr. Lewis: When the hon. Gentleman asks why Britain to them the relevance to their everyday lives of what does not allow the Tibetans freedom, he is clearly living goes on in this House and in conventional politics. in the past. The other important point is that the Dalai Central to that is our future security and the role of Lama himself does not demand independence for Tibet: NATO. what he demands is genuine autonomy and religious freedom, which has long been the policy of the rest of Freedom of Expression the international community. There is no doubt that, as a consequence of the policy change that we made last 4. Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) year, we now have greater leverage to influence China’s (LD): What steps he is taking to promote the policies in relation to Tibet. protection of free expression in countries without a free press. [293905] NATO The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): We work to 3. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): How much safeguard the international framework that protects his Department has spent on (a) hosting and (b) and promotes the right to freedom of expression and to supporting the involvement of young British people in support positive change on the ground. We raise individual NATO activities in the last 12 months. [293904] cases where freedom of expression has been threatened, and we challenge countries to change practices that The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth curtail the exercise of these rights. Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): In the last 12 months we have spent £22,000 in support of the Atlantic Council UK. Dr. Harris: I draw the House’s attention to the fact This covers activities from 2008 to 2010. The council that I am a patron of Article 19, which campaigns for undertakes activities to raise NATO’s profile and, as the the rights of journalists abroad. Will the Minister join hon. Gentleman will be aware, recently set up a youth me in welcoming the fact that this week the Government chapter. From November, it will begin a schools programme have tabled amendments in the to the to further raise awareness of NATO’s activities. Coroners and Justice Bill to get rid of the laws of sedition and criminal defamation in this country? Will Andrew Rosindell: Does the Minister agree that it is he urge his colleagues to promote the fact that we have worth investing money in educating young people about done this as a way of delivering similar freedoms to NATO’s historical role during the cold war, when it journalists in other countries? 761 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 762

Chris Bryant: It goes against the grain to congratulate accord and determination to renounce violence that is a Liberal Democrat. None the less, I am more than recognised by the majority of the Palestinian people happy to do so because I know the hon. Gentleman has and needs to be recognised by all their leaders. played a very important role, along with Article 19, with which we try to work closely, to get rid of the Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire) (Con): obsolete offences of sedition and criminal libel, not Unlike the Egyptians, who turned up to vote in the UN least because other countries have sometimes pointed to Human Rights Council meeting last week on the Goldstone those offences in the UK and said that that is a reason report on the recent conflict in Gaza, is it not deeply why they should be able to continue with laws that disappointing to find that our own representatives stayed deliberately hinder the freedom of expression and the away? This seems to have put us in the same voting freedom of opinion, which we believe is an essential camp as Angola, Kyrgyzstan and Madagascar, three of human right. the world’s worst dictatorships. What message was the Foreign Office trying to send to the community by Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ staying away from that important vote last week? Co-op): Will my hon. Friend make representations to the Government of Morocco about free expression in David Miliband: The Government do not stay away that country? I was contacted at the weekend by a from the question at all. As the hon. Gentleman should constituent whose brother is one of seven human rights know, the Prime Minister was working closely with activists who were detained last week by the Moroccan President Sarkozy of France, which I do not think even authorities. I understand that they have been threatened the Conservative party would describe as a dictatorship, with life or even the death penalty. Will on three key issues: first, an independent inquiry into my hon. Friend make efforts to intervene in this case the allegations at the heart of the Goldstone report; and ensure that freedom of expression exists in that secondly, greater humanitarian aid into Gaza; and thirdly, country as well? a restart of the peace process. The vote was called in the middle of the discussions between the Prime Minister, Chris Bryant: I am more than happy to look into the President Sarkozy and Prime Minister Netanyahu. I individual case if my hon. Friend is able to pass on the think it is right that the United Kingdom takes every information to me regarding the situation in Morocco. opportunity to drive forward on those three key issues, The right to express oneself, a free press and free media the aims of which have previously been supported by are essential. Around the world, one of the most important the Opposition. things that we have contributed to that is the BBC World Service. Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): Now that the United Nations Human Rights Commission Palestine has decided that Israel and Hamas have committed war and possibly crimes against humanity, and with 5. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Israel continuing to flout President Obama’s injunction What discussions he has had with his Egyptian counterparts to stop building in settlements, what action are we on progress towards a Palestinian reconciliation going to take to stop these blatant violations of international agreement. [293906] law?

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth David Miliband: It is absolutely right that we stick to Affairs (David Miliband): I spoke to the Egyptian Foreign the position that we have held since the publication of Minister, Ahmed Aboul Gheit, last Friday.As I understand the Goldstone report—that, on the one hand, it did not it, despite Fatah agreeing to Egypt’s proposals, Hamas do enough to recognise Israel’s right to self-defence but, has not. The Foreign Minister told me that the original on the other, it did raise serious issues that democratic deadline and further repeated deadlines for reaching Governments should address through the sort of full agreement among the Palestinian factions will not be and independent inquiry that is important. Democratic met. I told the Foreign Minister that we continued Governments are held to higher standards than terrorist to favour any reconciliation which supported peace organisations, and such Administrations need to live up negotiations and enhanced efforts to improve governance, to them. That is why it is in Israel’s interest, never mind security and the economy in the Palestinian territories. the international community’s interest, that there be a proper independent inquiry. That is precisely what the Andrew Gwynne: I understand that difficult negotiations Prime Minister was working for last Friday, and we will are continuing to try to bring about Palestinian unity, continue to work for it. which will be crucial. Will my right hon. Friend give his assurance that that unity will be based on the renunciation Mr. Mark Francois (Rayleigh) (Con): When the UN of violence as the first step to the creation of a viable Human Rights Council voted to endorse the Goldstone Palestinian state, as part of a two-state solution with report on the conflict in Gaza, the text of the motion Israel? made no reference at all to Hamas, despite the fact that it was heavily criticised in the report itself. Given that David Miliband: My hon. Friend takes a detailed the motion was so clearly unbalanced, therefore, does interest in these issues and I know that his commitment the Secretary of State agree that the Government should to a two-state solution is profound. He is right that have voted against it, as the United States did, rather negotiations need to take place on the basis of the than not even registering a formal abstention but simply renunciation of violence. There is no path to a Palestinian not voting at all? We interrupt meetings here all the time state through violence, and it is precisely the sort of to vote. Why could they not have done that? 763 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 764

David Miliband: For the record, I am afraid that the not been able to engage as effectively with China as we hon. Gentleman has not understood what actually might, but that does not preclude us from raising in the happened at the launch of the Goldstone report. The most robust of terms human rights issues in every resolution setting up the report was, indeed, deeply regard, whether in relation to Falun Gong, the issue unbalanced, and it did not refer to Hamas. That is that the right hon. Gentleman just raised or, for that why we welcomed the fact that Judge Goldstone matter, the death penalty. immediately said that his inquiry would be into Hamas’s alleged violations of international law, as well as Israel’s, Afghanistan and he was right to do so. The hon. Gentleman will know that, frankly, asking Hamas to set up an independent 7. Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) inquiry is whistling in the wind, but it is right none the (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the less that we say to a democratic Government such as Secretary of State for the Home Department on the Israel, whom we do respect, that their interests are best co-ordination of policy with other EU member states served by the sort of independent, full and transparent on developments in Afghanistan affecting UK national inquiry that has distinguished Israeli public life in security. [293908] the past. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth China Affairs (David Miliband): I regularly discuss developments affecting UK national security with my right hon. Friend 6. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): What the Secretary of State for the Home Department, including recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the outcome of his recent and important visit to EU co-operation with China. [293907] Afghanistan and Pakistan. We have pushed consistently with European Union partners for greater and more The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): There is coherent EU action in both countries, including the scope for much more productive EU-China co-operation adoption of a new strategy to strengthen EU action in on the whole range of global economic and security Afghanistan and Pakistan and a second EU-Pakistan issues. We believe that entry into force of the Lisbon summit in the first half of 2010. treaty, with its new external structures, is the ideal opportunity to put that relationship on a much more Dr. Blackman-Woods: I thank my right hon. Friend productive course. for that response. Will he confirm that he will be working closely with his European partners over the next few Joan Walley: Will my hon. Friend tell me how existing weeks to ensure that the next round of voting in the co-operation and the European Union’s current stance Afghan presidential elections is both free and fair, so can be used to ensure that we get a fair and effective that those wishing to rebuild Afghanistan and make it Copenhagen climate change treaty that involves China? more secure have the benefit of working with a credible Government there? Chris Bryant: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s comments. She is absolutely right: if we are to get a David Miliband: My hon. Friend raises a very important proper agreement in Copenhagen, we must ensure that point that I will touch on in the introduction to topical the Chinese contribution to that discussion is very questions. There are important developments in much in line with the EU. That is why we very much Afghanistan today that will affect all of us. The commitment welcome the further meeting that will take place in to a second round on behalf of both candidates is Nanjing in a few weeks’ time, in November, just before important, but equally important are the statesmanlike the Copenhagen summit. We support summit plans for statements made today, which hold out important prospects a high-profile EU-China partnership on climate change for the future credibility of an Afghan Government—that and, indeed, for the near-zero emissions coal initiative. must be at the heart of any hon. Member’s concern It is absolutely vital that the EU and China work about the future of that country. The Afghan people together, and it is much easier for us to achieve that if need a credible Government and so does the international we co-operate with other countries in Europe, rather community as a partner for all our efforts. than distance ourselves from the mainstream. Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): Further to the Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): Is the previous question, the Foreign Secretary will be fully Minister aware of China’s treatment of refugees from aware that soldiers can buy one time and space, but North Korea, and of China’s refusal to admit an what we need in Afghanistan is a political solution. investigation or access by the UN High Commissioner Given that the Electoral Complaints Commission said for Refugees? Does that not rule out any further that about a third of President Karzai’s votes in the co-operation so long as China, as a member of the UN presidential elections were fraudulent, will the Foreign Security Council, refuses to abide by human rights Secretary assure the House that any poll run-off will be obligations that it has signed up to? legitimate and fair and have the confidence of the Afghan people? Chris Bryant: Of course, there are always human rights issues that we will want to take up with the David Miliband: The whole House should recognise Chinese authorities, and we do so very regularly. I think that the work of the Electoral Complaints Commission that that is one of the issues that we have specifically has been of the highest order, the highest integrity, and, taken up, but that does not mean that we do not as we can now see, the highest level of forcefulness. continue to engage with China. Indeed, I would argue There has been no willingness on its part to be pushed that in recent years, we, as the European Union, have off the central principles to which it has adhered. There 765 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 766 has clearly been attempted fraud on a large scale. The Mr. Hague: On another matter regarding Afghanistan, vital thing is that all the arrangements, security as well the Prime Minister announced last week 500 additional as administrative, are followed through for the second troops for Afghanistan but set out burden sharing round, or in preparation for the second round, not least across the coalition as one of the conditions for that. to give proper credit and recognition to those brave Can the Foreign Secretary enlighten us further about Afghans who were determined to vote despite the that condition? If the United States is the only substantial intimidation and threats that they faced. extra contributor alongside the United Kingdom, will he consider that condition to have been fulfilled? Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend once again restate the fact that because David Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman will know the conflict in Afghanistan is so inextricably linked with that one of the commitments that President Obama has the military activity in Pakistan, it is absolutely vital for made is that not just that the first McChrystal report Britain’s own security that we maintain our commitment but that the second should be discussed deeply to ensure to seeing a peace process develop, which means a that there is full alliance engagement with the request in continuation of our military presence in Afghanistan? question. We will engage fully with the process, in respect of not just the American uplift and the discussions David Miliband: Yes, but to pick up my hon. Friend’s about it but the commitments of other countries on, point and that of the hon. Member for Billericay first, the number of troops, secondly on what those (Mr. Baron), ultimately there must be a political settlement troops do and where they do it and, thirdly, on the civil in Afghanistan: a political settlement for the people of engagement that President Obama and the Prime Minister that country; a political offer to the insurgency to live have stressed at every stage is a critical part of the effort. within the constitution and to come in and share We will consider that in the round and then come to our political power or face the military consequences; and conclusions. a political settlement with Afghanistan’s neighbours, because their tendency to try to see Afghanistan, or parts of it, as a client state rather than a neutral state is Sri Lanka completely undermining that country’s ability to run its own affairs. 8. Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) Mr. William Hague (Richmond, Yorks) (Con): Perhaps (LD): What recent discussions he has had with Sri anticipating what the Foreign Secretary intends to say Lankan Government Ministers on the situation of in topical questions, may I, on behalf of the Opposition, Tamil communities in the north and east of that join in the welcome for the announcement by President country. [293909] Karzai that he accepts the need for a second round, which in the absence of a national unity Government in 10. Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) Afghanistan must be the best way forward? Building on (Con): What his most recent assessment is of the earlier questions, will the Foreign Secretary expand on political situation in Sri Lanka; and if he will make a what the Government can do and what representations statement. [293911] they will make to try to ensure that these elections are run on a far better basis than those on 20 August, with The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth an increase in the number of Afghan and international Affairs (David Miliband): I met Foreign Minister election observers and a reform of the electoral procedures Bogollagama on 25 September and urged him to ensure that were abused last time? Will he assure the House that the Government of Sri Lanka return all 250,000 that action can be taken on those matters? internally displaced persons to their homes as quickly as possible. The imminent monsoon makes that more David Miliband: It is important to say that real efforts urgent, alongside the need for improved facilities for, will be made to live up to the standards that the right and access to, camps. I pressed for progress on the hon. Gentleman has tried to sketch out. Frankly, it protection of minority communities and on reconciliation, would be glib and slightly other-worldly for me to stand which will be vital if the end of the conflict is to be here and give a blanket yes to his questions, which, translated into a meaningful and lasting peace. although serious, go the heart of very deep security problems that face Afghanistan. However, it is the case I also made clear my concerns about the protection that in the first Afghan-led elections significant numbers of human rights. The European Commission registered of people voted despite huge attempts at intimidation. those concerns yesterday in its pre-report on GSP plus— It is also the case that the establishment of the Electoral general system of preferences—trade preferences. I assure Complaints Commission held true to the principle that the House that our position on GSP plus is clear: Sri fraudulent votes would not be counted, with consequences Lanka must respect its international human rights that were probably not expected by many people in obligations if it is to continue to benefit from GSP plus. terms of the overall result. The final score, if it comes in at about 48 per cent. to 31 per cent., represents a degree Simon Hughes: I am grateful for the Foreign Secretary’s of competition in the electoral process that is significant answer and for the Government’s efforts on this subject. and speaks to the work that will be critical in the next Given the importance that he has placed on human few weeks, which is the election of a credible Afghan rights being upheld by the Government of Sri Lanka, Government who can be a legitimate expression of the can he assure the House that he will make it clear up to will of the Afghan people, with a programme representing and during the Commonwealth Heads of Government a significant majority of opinion. That is the hope for conference that it would be unacceptable for the next all of us. conference to be held in Sri Lanka? 767 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 768

David Miliband: We will continue to use all avenues to David Miliband: I think, “Oh yes he did” is the make clear the importance of human rights in Sri answer that came both from the Opposition and some Lanka and every other part of the Commonwealth. of the people sitting next to the hon. Gentleman. I think it is important that he recognises that on this Mr. Evennett: We are all extremely concerned about issue, he can safely agree with what the Government are the situation in Sri Lanka, and obviously a political saying. A pre-report has been published. Our position solution is vital for all the people of that country. on the human rights aspect is that there are 27 international However, Sri Lanka is to start its process of political agreements that countries wishing to benefit from GSP-plus reform and reconciliation only after the 2010 election, need to adhere to, including on critical issues to do with so the Government there say. If minority communities children’s rights, torture and so on. They must be adhered are not to be disfranchised, the process must begin to for GSP plus to continue. before the election. What more can the Government do to encourage that? Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): In the last few weeks of the conflict in Sri Lanka, Members on David Miliband: I spoke to the Foreign Minister of both sides of the House were horrified at the civilian Sri Lanka on the day the civil war ended and said that casualties, which were the result both of action by the this was the best opportunity for Sri Lanka to build an Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam—use of children and inclusive political settlement. There is no need to wait—the the use of women as cover—and of indiscriminate fire time is now. Outreach to the minority communities by Sri Lankan Government forces. Have the Government now, in advance of the election, will be critical to been able to get any answer from the Sri Lankan shaping how they engage with a future Sri Lankan Government on whether they intend to investigate Government. allegations made against their forces? What pressure is the international community applying regarding war Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): The Foreign crimes? Secretary will know that it has been impossible for independent journalists to gain access to the David Miliband: I hope the hon. Gentleman saw the camps. Will he press the Sri Lankan Government to statement by Ban Ki-moon, the UN Secretary-General, ensure that there is free and unfettered access, so that and President Rajapaksa following their meeting in the reports that we are hearing of wilful gang rapes by Colombo—if he did not, I will certainly send it to him. the Sri Lankan army of women abducted from those The statement made clear the need for an accountability camps, and of the taking out of young men, can be mechanism. It is certainly our determination in meetings brought to an end once and for all? with the UN Secretary-General and in meetings with the Sri Lankan Government to ensure that it is followed David Miliband: Yes, access to the camps, not just for up. The hon. Gentleman referred to the international journalists but for human rights organisations, is a community. There is no better basis for the follow-up of fundamental part of the building of a peaceful and allegations of war crimes than the agreement that the inclusive Sri Lankan political system. Sri Lankan President had with the UN Secretary-General.

Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): Arab Peace Initiative Now that the EU has concluded that Sri Lanka is in breach of its human rights obligations under its trade 9. Mrs. Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): What recent agreement with the EU, will the Foreign Secretary confirm discussions his Department has had with the that the UK will push for and support the suspension of Palestinian Authority on the Arab peace initiative; and the GSP plus trade benefits that Sri Lanka currently if he will make a statement. [293910] enjoys, and argue for that across the EU? The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth David Miliband: I must have disappointed the hon. Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I visited the Palestinian territories Gentleman terribly when I answered that question in in August, and met Ministers and the President’s chief my original answer. I am sorry that he was not able to of staff. The Foreign Secretary spoke to the Palestinian change his question after that. Prime Minister, Salam Fayyad, most recently on 12 October. I repeat that the European Commission has produced All our discussions include the need for urgent progress what is called a pre-report on GSP plus, and that our towards a comprehensive peace in the middle east, with position is absolutely clear: Sri Lanka must respect its a two-state solution between the Israelis and the Palestinians international human rights obligations to continue to underpinned by a broader peace between Israel and the benefit from GSP plus. The hon. Gentleman will know entire Arab world. that when the Commission finally publishes its report, as opposed to its pre-report, there will be a maximum of Mrs. McGuire: I thank my hon. Friend for that two months before a final decision is taken. We will play response. He may be aware that on 9 October, in Israel’s a full part in ensuring respect for that principle. Ha’aretz newspaper, King Abdullah of Jordan said: “We have no alternative but to pursue a negotiated settlement Mr. Davey: With respect to the Foreign Secretary, he that will meet Israel’s security needs and ensure it has normal did not actually answer my question in his first remarks, relations in the region, and fulfils the Palestinians’ right to freedom and he failed to do so in that response. Are the UK and statehood.” Government going to push for the GSP plus trade Given that the Israeli Government have not yet formulated benefits to be suspended in relation to Sri Lanka—yes a response to the Arab peace initiative, what more can or no? Britain do to encourage them to support that initiative, 769 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 770 which I think, frankly, gives an unprecedented opportunity unless one sits down in the European Parliament with for 57 nations to have normal relations with Israel in the them, not with people who still refuse to apologise for context of a wider settlement? the Latvian SS.

Mr. Lewis: What can I say, Mr. Speaker? My right Refugee Camps (Chad) hon. Friend is absolutely right. I believe genuinely that this is the last best chance for peace in the middle east for a generation. We should give our full support to the 12. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/ initiative led by President Obama, particularly with the Co-op): What reports he has received on the security of appointment of Senator Mitchell. This is now the time female refugees from Darfur living in refugee camps in in the middle east for responsible and visionary leadership. eastern Chad; and if he will make a statement. [293913] As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State laid out recently, the basis of the agreement is clear: a secure The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Israel alongside a viable Palestinian state; resolving the Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): We are understandably concerned issues of final borders, based on ’67 including issues of by reports from the United Nations and non-governmental settlements and Jerusalem; justice for Palestinian refugees; organisations highlighting the dangers that Darfuri women and not simply recognition of Israel by the Arab world, face in and around refugee camps in eastern Chad. but normalisation in relations towards Israel by the Arab world. David Taylor: Amnesty’s report “No Place for Us Here” documents the worsening plight of the refugees Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Will the Minister who have fled since 2003 to eastern Chad where rape assure the House that the Foreign Office will encourage and other attacks are being committed against many all Arab Governments of the continuing relevance and women and girls with egregious impunity inside and importance of the Arab peace initiative, and to back it outside the camps. Will my hon. Friend urgently raise not only with hard diplomacy, but with soft diplomacy this fundamental failure to protect innocent victims of aimed at the Israeli population? the Darfur crisis with the Chadian ambassador and at United Nations level, because this shocking criminal Mr. Lewis: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. violence must be stopped and the perpetrators indicted? It is important not only that we see justice for the Palestinians in terms of the Palestinian state, but that Mr. Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary we give assurances to the Israeli people that their security has not only agreed to be my assistant on this occasion, will be protected should a two-state agreement be reached. but has agreed to accede to my hon. Friend’s request to That is why it is so important that the Arab world sends write to the UN about this incredibly important issue very clear and strong messages to terrorist organisations and raise the concerns of the British Government. such as Hamas and Hezbollah that they are obstacles to peace, and that they are not furthering the cause of a Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): How do the Government Palestinian state. intend to integrate UN resolution 1888 on women, peace and security into the existing framework of the Turkey and Armenia national action plan on resolution 1325?

11. Mr. Bob Laxton (Derby, North) (Lab): What Mr. Lewis: That is entirely consistent with the policies assessment he has made of the implications for that the Government have promoted on this issue over a Government policy in the region of the conclusion of very long time, so the UK will be providing leadership protocols on (a) development of relations and (b) on this. establishment of diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia. [293912] Topical Questions The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): The Government welcome the signing of protocols between Armenia and T1. [293926] Mr. Ian McCartney (Makerfield) (Lab): Turkey. That is important not only for those countries, If he will make a statement on his departmental but for peace in the wider region. responsibilities.

Mr. Laxton: What further steps can the Government The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth take to encourage both Turkey and Armenia to ratify Affairs (David Miliband): This afternoon, President Karzai and implement these protocols, because the benefits has announced that in the light of the findings of the will be immense for the region? We need to ensure that electoral complaints commission, he will embrace a momentum in this process is maintained. second round run-off of the presidential elections in Afghanistan. We welcome that. Both he and Dr. Abdullah Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is right: we need to have been statesmanlike in accepting the prolonged ensure that ratification is proceeded with by the Parliaments, electoral process and have secured support from across and two months after that it will be possible to open the the country. Both have a major responsibility to ensure border. That is such a significant change from the that the next stages are a credit to Afghanistan. The position that we were in only a few years ago that all independent election commission is expected to make Members will wholeheartedly welcome it. We remain an announcement this afternoon on the details of the committed to Turkey eventually being able to accede to first round result, once it has collated the orders of the the European Union, but it is impossible to have any electoral complaints commission to exclude flawed ballots leverage arguing that with German and French colleagues and include some quarantined ballots. The Afghan 771 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 772 people and candidates have shown patience and resilience is his position—that we must ensure proper conditionality throughout this process and the UK will continue to in any switch from the OHR to the EU special support them as they bring it to a conclusion. representative. I also wish to place on record the thanks of the whole House not just to the UN Secretary-General’s special Mr. Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the Secretary of representative, Kai Eide, for the unstinting work that he State, but I must say to Ministers that the abridged has done on this election, but to Senator John Kerry for version, rather than the “War and Peace” version, will his work over the past few days. I spoke to him on suffice. I call Judy Mallaber. Saturday and Sunday, and he has made a signal contribution to the resolution of the process. T2. [293927] Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): Last week, I visited Bangladesh, which will be critically Mr. McCartney: I agree with everything that my right affected by climate change. Does my right hon. Friend hon. Friend has said. I wish him and our colleagues well agree that, if we weaken our political affiliations in in reaching a successful conclusion with a run-off. Europe and with other countries by fringe activities such as joining fringe groups, we will be in a weaker Does my right hon. Friend have any comment to position when trying to deal with issues such as getting make about the complaint by the chief rabbi of Poland agreements on climate change and other issues critical about the recent election of Michal Kaminski to the to UK interests? leadership of the Conservative group, given his neo-Nazi links? Does my right hon. Friend think that that was an The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): My hon. appropriate election, supported as it was by the leaders Friend—[Interruption.] It is nice to be welcomed. of the Opposition in this country? Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the Minister to hold his Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind right hon. and hon. horses for a moment. Mr. Simpson, you are very senior Members that in topical questions both the question and experienced Member of this House. Chuntering and the answer must be brief. I do not want to cut away and bellowing from a sedentary position is not in people off, but I will if it is necessary to make progress. order. You can behave so much better when you try.

David Miliband: The future of this country depends Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We on wholehearted engagement in the European Union, need to be able to deliver on some key issues for Britain, making Britain’s case and ensuring that we are part of a one of which is an agreement in Copenhagen later this mainstream majority. This Government are proud to be year. It is impossible for us to do that without a stronger alongside 27 Governments and 26 opposition parties in EU and our playing a stronger role within the EU. saying that now is the time to put the Lisbon treaty into There are no fringe benefits to being on the fringe. practice and to ensure that it benefits all the citizens of Europe. It is a great pity that the Conservative party is T5. [293930] Simon Hughes (North Southwark and stuck in the past. Bermondsey) (LD): From the Liberal Democrat Benches, may I encourage Ministers to be as positive as Mr. William Hague (Richmond, Yorks) (Con): On that answer about the post-Lisbon future? I ask that, in that, it is a great pity that the Labour party broke an the interests of a Copenhagen deal that works and an election promise that it made to the people of this economic future for Europe that delivers jobs, we work country at the last election. However, I am sure that the positively with all the other 26 countries and do not Foreign Secretary will join me in welcoming today’s work on the margins, which will put us on the margins visit to Sarajevo by Carl Bildt and the US deputy for the decades ahead. Secretary of State. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, given the situation in Bosnia and what has David Miliband: I fear that I might have done a happened in that country over the past 15 to 20 years, it disservice to the Liberal Democrats and their allies would be premature to close the Office of the High around Europe. All 27 Governments around Europe, Representative or to withdraw the EUFOR presence, 26 opposition parties and all the Liberal parties in and that the time might be coming when the carrot of Europe are saying that now is time to put the constitutional EU accession for Bosnia and Herzegovina has to be arguments, and now the reform treaty arguments, behind accompanied by the stick of sanctions on those who us and to work for a stronger Europe. It is a great pity would undermine its political progress? that only one party—this Conservative party—in the whole of Europe wants to fight the battles of the past. David Miliband: The House should know that the From now until election day, it will have to answer real pity is that three times the right hon. Gentleman whether it is ready to live with the Lisbon treaty or has refused to debate Europe with me on the BBC and determined to fight it on its own. Channel 4, because he knows that his arguments are completely threadbare. We stand ready to take questions T3. [293928] Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): It is about Europe—of which there are none—and to hold now four years since the Iraqi Government took debates about Europe, which he refuses to have. control of the assets of the Iraqi trade union In respect of Bosnia, I spoke to Minister Bildt on movement. In the past week, they have seized even Sunday about this important issue, and I agree that more control of the levers of power in the unions. Will today’s meeting is important. The European orientation the Secretary of State meet me and Iraqi trade unions of Bosnia and Herzegovina is a very important part of to see whether we can find a way forward to give these the package being worked on. However, I hope that the people real support in a situation that should not be right hon. Gentleman will also agree—I think that this happening? 773 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 774

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): We believe in not only the Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the appropriate rights of trade unions in this country, but in the rights response of the Israeli Government to the Arab peace of trade unions in Iraq. At the heart of the Iraqi offer would have been an unequivocal commitment to constitution is the right to organise in a free trade an immediate settlement freeze, as all the settlements union, and I would certainly enter into discussions with are illegal under international law. What can be done to my hon. Friend about how we make this a reality. When ensure that they do this now? I visit Iraq at some stage over the next few months, I shall raise the point directly with the Iraqi Government. Mr. Lewis: I agree with my hon. Friend. President Obama has made it clear that the trigger for comprehensive T6. [293931] Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): What negotiations that will lead to a two-state solution are, impact does Pakistan’s deep involvement in the Afghanistan first, the freezing of illegal Israeli settlements, which has conflict have on the prospect for a resolution of the long been the British position, and, secondly, a positive long-running India-Pakistan dispute over the future of gesture towards the state of Israel from the Arab world. Kashmir? We believe that there is no time to waste in responding positively to President Obama’s initiative. David Miliband: The key to re-establishing the composite dialogue, which was so important in trying to establish T9. [293934] Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): better relations between India and Pakistan, is action in Last year we provided £339 million in overseas Pakistan on those associated with the Mumbai bombings. development assistance to India. We even provided There is a real hunger in the Indian Government and £97 million to China, but Afghanistan on the other among the Indian population to see real action from hand received only £178 million. The brave men and their Pakistani neighbours on that critical issue. However, women of our armed forces are fighting to defeat the the foundation of confidence needs to be proper prosecution Taliban. Should we not be providing more aid to win and, if found guilty, sentencing of those who were the hearts and minds of the civilian population? associated—or allegedly associated—with the Mumbai murders. David Miliband: We are providing more aid: Afghanistan is going to become the second largest recipient of British T7. [293932] Mr. Marsha Singh (Bradford, West) (Lab): aid this year. It is also worth pointing out that, to put it May I inform my right hon. Friend that many of my mildly, Afghanistan is a much smaller country than constituents are extremely concerned about the events China or India. By definition, the aid that we give to a taking place in Pakistan right now? This is a struggle country of 20 million people will be much less than our that the Pakistani Government must win. What aid to some other countries. However, I can assure the support are the Government offering Pakistan, both hon. Gentleman that Afghanistan will become the second through what its troops are doing and on internally largest aid recipient this year. displaced people?

David Miliband: I am glad that my hon. Friend, who David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): One small cause for follows these issues carefully, gives me the chance to optimism in the middle east is the security improvements reflect with the House on the vital work being done in on the west bank, which have been brought about by Pakistan. The Pakistani Government have long been the Palestinian Authority finally getting a grip on security urged to recognise that the multiple insurgencies that there and the Israelis responding by opening road blocks. they face are a threat not just to them, but to overall Will the Foreign Secretary continue to provide full regional peace and security. The armed efforts now support and backing to General Dayton and his largely being taken up by the Pakistani army in six of the British team, who have done so much to bring about districts in South Waziristan threaten a large number of that improved state of affairs? refugees, but also offer the prospect that, for the first time, there will be a proper Pakistani Government David Miliband: Yes, I have worked closely with General security presence in those districts. It is of the utmost Dayton, who has done an important job, with support importance that we continue not only to offer political from his British No. 2. The commitment to improving and humanitarian support, which is an essential part of Palestinian security was to be found in phase one of the our work with the internally displaced persons who will road map, and the Israeli commitment was meant to be inevitably come with the conflict, but to engage with all to freeze the settlements alongside that. The fact that Pakistani opinion on this vital issue. the Palestinian Authority are determined to follow through on their commitment to improving Palestinian security T8. [293933] Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): The is right, and it is also reaping dividends in the form of Government are right to expend diplomatic efforts in the economic benefits that can be seen by anyone who trying to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear capability, goes to Ramallah or anywhere else in the west bank. but does the Foreign Secretary understand and accept that one of the issues that the Iranians rightly raise is Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I the Israeli nuclear capability? What is his policy on that am mindful of the earlier exchanges about Sri Lanka and will he encourage Israel to sign the nuclear and the work being done by the Government. Is it not non-proliferation treaty? therefore high time that we had a cast-iron programme from the Sri Lankan Government for the disbanding of David Miliband: Yes, and I answered exactly the same those awful camps and the repatriation of the Tamil question when my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, people? North (Jeremy Corbyn) asked it at the beginning of questions today. David Miliband: Yes. 775 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 776

Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): administering that global political agreement, but that Will my right hon. Friend tell me whether he thinks that it must lead to an effective election to resolve the the pressures on freedom of expression elsewhere in the country’s future. world have an impact on our own freedoms of expression and our safety in the UK? Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that any massacre, big or small, by whomever, of Jews during world war two was a Chris Bryant: Freedom of expression, wherever it against humanity? To whitewash such a massacre may be in the world, is a vital subject that we try to raise and to try to make it relative is intolerable, unacceptable in many countries. Part of our diplomatic effort in politics, and those who associate with those politicians Colombia, Russia, China and many parts of Africa shame this House and our nation. involves trying to ensure that the freedoms that we rejoice in here in this country can be shared by people in David Miliband: My right hon. Friend has done other parts of the world. fantastic work with colleagues across every party on anti-Semitism and the need to combat it. There is no Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Zimbabwe room for hair-splitting when it comes to the massacre of has fallen off the Foreign Office radar, yet the tragedy 300 or 400 people in a Polish village in 1941, and I and the crisis there continue. What initiatives are the would have thought that every single Member of this Government taking to try to bring some form of African House would be able to condemn that atrocity without democracy to that wonderful country? any hesitation.

T10. [293935] Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) David Miliband: I am glad to have the opportunity to (Con): In his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for assure the hon. Gentleman that Zimbabwe certainly has North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss), the Foreign not fallen off our agenda. There is intensive work going Secretary implied that our grand abstention was part of on, not least through our contacts with the new South a cunning plan involving President Sarkozy. What was African Government, to ensure that the crisis that he the plan? has rightly described is not forgotten. He will also be aware of our continuing humanitarian work. The vital David Miliband: The plan was very simple, and I need, however, is to support the global political agreement would not describe it as cunning. I would describe it as and the transition that it promises to a proper election principled and clear. It is to ensure that there is an that will recognise the real winner of that election. He independent inquiry into the allegations at the heart of will have seen that members of a European Union the Goldstone report, that humanitarian aid gets into delegation went to Harare and delivered a simple message Gaza and that there is a restart of peace talks on the without fear or favour to President Mugabe and Prime basis of President Obama’s UN General Assembly speech. Minister Tsvangirai. The message was that they would That is something that the hon. Gentleman should be support the Zimbabwean people in delivering and supporting, not mocking. 777 20 OCTOBER 2009 Transfer of 778

Transfer of Prisoners as Dame Anne Owers, the chief inspector, commented this morning. She added that “inspection has nothing to do with performance targets”. 3.33 pm Independent inspections and Service performance standards, along with substantial investment, have led Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): (Urgent to a transformation in the nature of prison regimes over Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and the past 12 years. Her Majesty’s chief inspector has Lord Chancellor if he will make a statement on the acknowledged that today are more decent, more report from the chief inspector of prisons documenting constructive and considerably more secure, which is yet the concerted movement of prisoners between Wandsworth another reason why these incidents are all the more and Pentonville prisons in order to avoid inspection. inexcusable and regrettable. I will, of course, keep the House informed of further developments. The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor (Mr. Jack Straw): I am grateful to the hon. and learned Mr. Grieve: The report by the chief inspector of Gentleman for this question. Her Majesty’s chief inspector prisons and the answer just given to my question today of prisons, Dame Anne Owers, has today published two show that prisoners have been transferred from Wandsworth inspection reports concerning Her Majesty’s prisons at and Pentonville prisons with the collusion of senior Pentonville and Wandsworth. The inspections took place staff and the deliberate intention of avoiding independent in May and June this year. The background to the chief inspection without any regard for those prisoners’ well- inspector’s findings is contained in a written ministerial being. Dame Anne Owers concludes that this was statement that I made to the House this morning. An “irresponsible, pointless and potentially dangerous”. investigation report was received by the senior management She is clearly right, and I am delighted that the Secretary of the National Offender Management Service on of State agrees. 2 October. The report found that 11 prisoners had been Those responsible face a disciplinary process. That, subject to temporary transfers between Wandsworth too, is right. We will await the outcome and I certainly and Pentonville, and that those transfers had been do not wish to prejudice such proceedings today. However, arranged in a deliberate attempt to undermine the inspection if the Prison Service takes responsibility for its mistakes, process of Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons. will the Justice Secretary take responsibility for the Several of these prisoners were known to be vulnerable, failings in the prison system that are bringing this state and two harmed themselves during this process. of affairs about? The truth is that this type of incident, Following the receipt of the investigation reports, while totally inexcusable, is an almost inevitable result disciplinary charges under the Prison Service code of of this Government’s serial mismanagement of our conduct were laid on 13 October against a number of prisons. individuals. Proceedings are currently under way. The is at record levels. Can the Justice House will understand that such disciplinary proceedings Secretary confirm that in May, at the time of the are not a matter in which Ministers can or should be inspections, Wandsworth prison was holding 50 per involved. cent. more prisoners than its certified capacity—just seven away from its absolute emergency breaking point? The prisons and probation ombudsman and Her Is it fair to limit responsibility to prison staff when the Majesty’s coroner are conducting separate investigations Government have recklessly ignored all the warnings into the self-inflicted death of another transferred over a period of six years that predicted this crisis of to Pentonville, following a court appearance, in the capacity in our prisons today, which was bound to week before the Wandsworth inspection. The prisoner impact on how individual prisoners are managed? was held at Pentonville during the inspection, before The Justice Secretary seems to believe that targets can being returned to Wandsworth. During the course of make up for this most basic failure to provide enough the investigations, information emerged to suggest that places for all the prisoners. Both Wandsworth and a third prison, HMP Brixton, temporarily transferred Pentonville prisons are subject to 44 different top-down prisoners out during its inspection. A further investigation targets, including one for the amount of water drunk is now being completed and we are awaiting a formal and another for energy efficiency. In the first quarter of report. this year, as the Secretary of State said, Wandsworth There are obviously questions as to whether these prison was evaluated as “good”, yet at the same time we practices are more widespread across the prison estate. I have these serious failings. have therefore asked Her Majesty’s chief inspector of Does the Justice Secretary accept that we are witnessing prisons to work with the Ministry of Justice’s director the stark reality of the warping effect in the real world of analytical services to investigate whether the temporary of excessive Whitehall targets set by this Government? transfer of prisoners prior to inspections has occurred Does he accept that prison officers would not go to such in other prisons. extraordinary lengths to dupe inspectors if the Government The transfer of prisoners like this, in a deliberate lived up to their responsibilities, and created the conditions attempt to undermine the inspectorate process of HM’s in which they can work properly? chief inspector of prisons, was a disgraceful matter in Then there are the specific findings of the chief both its intent and its execution. The individuals involved inspector: the deliberate moving of vulnerable prisoners neglected one of their primary duties—to treat those in prone to self-harm which definitely led some of them to custody with decency and respect—and made serious injure themselves, and the fact that two of the five errors of judgment, which are neither justifiable nor prisoners from Wandsworth tried to kill themselves excusable. But for these transfers, these two prisons when told that they would be moved. One tied a ligature were around his own neck and cut himself. He was forced “en route to get good inspection reports”, from his cell in his underwear. 779 Transfer of Prisoners20 OCTOBER 2009 Transfer of Prisoners 780

Does the Justice Secretary recognise that those appalling As for the number of prisoners in Wandsworth prison and utterly avoidable examples of mistreatment are the on the day of their inspections, two measures are applied, consequences of a prison estate that is bursting at the certified normal accommodation and operational capacity. seams? Will he undertake to come to the House and No local prison in the country has ever been at its make an oral statement once we have the ombudsman’s certified normal accommodation level. All work, and findings on the tragic suicide of Christopher Wardally? have under successive Governments, to their operational Will he take some responsibility? capacity. Wandsworth was just under it, and Pentonville These are not isolated examples. As a result of the was 84 under it. conditions in our prisons, incidents of self-harm rose by On the hyperbole about targets, after years of absolute 10 per cent. last year. What hope can we have of chaos in the prisons under the previous Administration—for reducing reoffending rates to protect the public when example, escapes were running at more per week than increasing numbers of prisoners are so desperate that happened last in a single year—it was they who established they will harm themselves? [Interruption.] Did the hon. targets: eight key performance indicators and eight Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) wish to intervene? targets. There are now 13 targets for prisons, including on such matters as escapes, drugs, reoffending, staff Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): No. It was so sickness and ethnic minority staff. I would like the hon. boring that I did not bother. and learned Gentleman to tell us which of them he suggests we should not meet. Mr. Speaker: Order. As for overcrowding— Mr. Grieve: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman takes this matter so seriously, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I gently say to the Secretary Does the Justice Secretary accept that the Government’s of State that if he could offer us a brief distillation of usual tactic of trying to characterise the transfers and his views, that would be appreciated? the problems as being isolated incidents simply does not wash from what we know happened at Brixton? Will he Mr. Straw rose— give the House an undertaking to publish, in a written statement, a list of all prisoner transfers made within a week before inspections were due in all prisons in the Mr. Speaker: Order. So far, the exchanges between last six months? That will at least give us some measure the Front Benches have simply taken too long. If that of transparency, given that there must be fears that this happens again, I will cut them off, as we must get Back may in fact be a widespread practice. Although the Benchers in. Secretary of State has known about the matter for some time—since July—Wandsworth remains as crowded as Mr. Straw: As for the timing, I was informed of this it was back in May. on 30 July. I issued a public statement immediately, and This is a Government who are on their last legs. They I also wrote to the hon. and learned Gentleman on are exhausted, and they are bereft of solutions to problems 2 September. that are entirely of their own making. David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): What appears to Mr. Straw: Let me respond to the series of questions have happened is, indeed, disgraceful, and it is particularly asked by the hon. and learned Gentleman. disturbing that the members of staff involved were of I have always taken responsibility for the prison system, such high rank and of such previous high reputation. and any other matter falling within my wide responsibilities However, does the Secretary of State not feel some as a Minister, in every Department in which I have been twinge of guilt about what happened? He says there is involved. However, there is no evidence so far—none no connection between this and overcrowding, but the whatsoever—that these totally unacceptable and inexcusable connection is as follows: because of overcrowding, every transfers have anything to do with the setting and day there are massive transfers from prison to prison maintenance of targets, or with overcrowding in prisons. within the prison system, and presumably that is where I accept, and volunteered in my statement—indeed, it the idea arose of hiding these problems behind transfers. was I who proposed it in the first place—that, given the The second thing he should feel some responsibility for evidence here, and the evidence that we have that something is the fact that the prisons are full of inmates who suffer may have happened in Brixton—we know no more than from mental illnesses—serious mental illnesses in many that—there are bound to be questions about whether cases. There is a far higher proportion of people with the practice was widespread. That is why I have set up mental illnesses among the prisoner population than an independent investigation in which the chief inspector among the population at large. We have been given to of prisons’ staff will be involved alongside my staff, believe that some of the inmates concerned in this case who, I may say, are separate from the staff of the were suffering from mental illness. Will the Secretary of National Offender Management Service. However, both State confirm that? the director general of the Prison Service—who is as Does the Secretary of State accept that the overcrowding appalled about this as anyone—and the chief inspector of the prisons and the fact that they are full of mentally of prisons themselves said today words to the effect that ill prisoners is in the end the responsibility of the they doubt that the practice is widespread, and so far Government, who have encouraged both the greater use there is no evidence that it is. I promise the House, of of prison and the increasing of prison sentences in a course, that any evidence that emerges from the analysis vain attempt to win a punitive war of attrition with the that we are conducting will be made available to the main Opposition party? Does he not see that this incident House, and that, if there is any evidence, it will be is a cause for soul searching not only in the Prison followed up rigorously. Service, but at the highest level of politics? 781 Transfer of Prisoners20 OCTOBER 2009 Transfer of Prisoners 782

Mr. Straw: These are local prisons, and there is Mr. Straw: On the issue of whether the practice is always a substantial movement in and out of any local widespread, that is obviously a question for all of us—it prison. Local prisons, especially those in London, are was the first question that I asked. That is why I have set very difficult to manage and I pay tribute to the staff. up this detailed investigation, which will look, first, at That has always been the case, but we have engaged in a the transfer records for each prison that has had an massive building programme and so far—touch wood—we announced inspection to check whether any prisoners have kept prisoners out of police cells for at least the were shipped out and shipped back again—that will be last year. Should the main Opposition party wish to the key indicator. If any such prisoners are found, trade stories about the state of our prisons, I can say further investigations will be carried out. I also accept that on any measure they are now in infinitely better what the right hon. and learned Gentleman says about state than they were under the previous Administration. medical staff. On the hon. Gentleman’s key point about mental illness, I accept that there are far too many prisoners in Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): We do not yet prison who ought to be in hospital because of their know whether these transfers contributed to a prisoner mental health problems. That is why we set up the killing himself, but would the Lord Chancellor agree to Bradley review, the findings of which we are now seeking report to this House, following the report of the prisons to implement. ombudsman and the coroner’s report, on whether that was the case in this instance and on the number of Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Pursuing prisoners up and down the country who are killing the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for themselves while they are in our prisons? Cambridge (David Howarth), ought it not to be a much Mr. Straw: On the specific issue, the reports of the clearer objective of the prison system that prisoners are prisons and probation ombudsman are normally published. assigned to, and kept in, institutions with regimes that The publication of this report is a matter for the have the capacity to reduce their likelihood of reoffending? ombudsman, not for me, however, I fully understand Does the Secretary of State recognise that a lot of the the concern of the House to see the report. An inquest time that is not happening, which is why such disgraceful will also take place, probably after that. It is entirely transfers might not have been so obvious? appropriate that that should take place before any announcement is made to the House, but I will, of Mr. Straw: We do, indeed, seek to transfer prisoners course, keep the House properly informed. Any suicide whose sentences are of reasonable length to fulfil the in prison is deeply to be regretted, but I just say to the major part of their sentence in institutions that might House that the number for last year, 60, is lower—the help to reduce their reoffending. I also say to the right figure fluctuates considerably—than it has been hon. Gentleman that reoffending rates have significantly since 1997. improved, not least as a result of some of the targets we have set. The problem in some of these cases is that Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): If there is to these were prisoners who had to go to court. That is the be further investigation into any other possible occurrences purpose of a local prison. Such prisoners cannot be of transfers related to the inspections, how will such held miles away from the court they are attending. transfers be identified and separated from the more routine transfers that take place when prisoners are Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) making court appearances, which so often lead to their (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that by indulging curtailing any education or training courses in which in these transfers the senior management have not only they are involved? betrayed the prisoners and the trust we have put in them to treat prisoners properly and fairly, but have also Mr. Straw: I am quite clear that those who are doing completely eclipsed the hard work of prison officers the investigation will, from their knowledge, be able to who, in fact, have been improving conditions in the two spot why a transfer took place. If a transfer took place prisons concerned? from Wandsworth, Pentonville, Brixton or any other prison to a court—this happens every day—it is perfectly Mr. Straw: May I first pay tribute to my hon. Friend obvious why the person was transferred. On the other the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Emily hand, if there was a transfer to a court and then a Thornberry), in whose constituency Pentonville prison transfer to a different prison, and the original prison lies? I know of her great concern about the prison and was being subject to inspection, that would trigger a her great commitment to the work of the staff. On her warning light. This process of investigation will give a overall point, I entirely agree with her; one of the very good indication of whether, prima facie, this practice tragedies of what has happened is that, as Dame Anne has been going on. I must say that the director general Owers has said, all the good work and the improvement of the Prison Service, Phil Wheatley, and his senior in progress, which was specified in the reports and staff, as well as the chief inspector and I, are totally and which the Opposition failed to acknowledge, has been utterly committed to checking and checking again as to eclipsed by this terrible series of incidents. whether this practice has been going on at any other prison. As Mr. Wheatley said this morning, he has been Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) a prison governor and in his experience, he has never (Con): May I say to the Secretary of State that the real come across such practice, but we may have to live and concern is that the practice is very widespread? Will the learn. inquiry look into that? Will it also examine the role of the medical staff who have been involved? Will he alert Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I spoke to the independent monitoring boards of each prison to the governor of HMP Wellingborough this morning. address this particular question? He was aghast at the practice and confirmed that it had 783 Transfer of Prisoners 20 OCTOBER 2009 784 never happened in Wellingborough. Will the Lord Royal Mail Chancellor explain to me why the inspections are announced in advance and why the inspectors do not just turn up? 3.55 pm Mr. Straw: Some inspections are announced in advance The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat and a great many are done unannounced. This is a McFadden): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to matter for the chief inspector of prisons. I understand repeat a statement made by my noble Friend the Secretary that her view is that having announced inspections of State for Business, Innovation and Skills about the provides an opportunity for the prison to ensure that it decision of the Communication Workers Union to take is in good order and to meet objectives previously set. national industrial action later this week. She does not inspect to targets—she has made that No one is in doubt about the damage that such clear—but she inspects to key indicators of what she industrial action will cause, but those who advocate describes as a “healthy” prison. At the same time, the strike action have not been clear about why it is threatened. inspectorate does use—I believe that it uses these more The dispute at the Royal Mail is about modernisation, than formal, announced inspections—unannounced which has been the subject of localised strikes, particularly inspections. How the chief inspector does it is entirely a in London, for many months. We know from the Hooper matter for her, but I think that the whole House will review on postal services about the company’s need to wish to place on record its thanks to her; it was in an change and reform in the face of a postal market that is announced inspection that this situation emerged. being transformed as people switch to text, e-mail and The other point that I would simply make to all those direct debit, and as the growing area of mail, which is Members who have asked whether such activity is more parcels, offers a variety of alternative operators from widespread than the current examples is that the information which to choose. about these transfers emerged through complaints that Royal Mail has to respond to the fact that 10 million prisoners made to their lawyers. Prisoners are fully fewer letters are posted each day than were posted three entitled to write to their lawyers, to the ombudsman, to years ago, and that total mail volumes have fallen by a HM inspectorate of prisons and to Members of this further 8 per cent. in the first half of this year. In other House confidentially and without that information or words, if it stands still, the company faces terminal those letters being seen by the prison staff. We can rest decline. Following a national strike two years ago, the assured, given the publicity that has been given to this union—the CWU—and management reached a national matter, that if further prisoners feel that they have been agreement on pay and modernisation. The agreement subject to such unacceptable transfers we will know one set a framework of four phases for bringing essential way or another. change to Royal Mail. The first three have been introduced throughout the country but are being resisted in some places, which I will come to shortly. The changes have involved the introduction of more walk-sorting machines and new working practices including expecting employees to do the full number of hours that they are paid to work. Phase four, the next phase of modernisation, is yet to be agreed in substance rather than outline and will be about a new framework for improving industrial relations. That will include introducing walk-sequencing machines to sort the postal delivery round and developing new business opportunities along with a new system for rewarding employees. In the majority of Royal Mail’s workplaces, phases one to three of the national agreement have been implemented without any local industrial action being mounted. Outdated working practices have been replaced and efficiency is being improved, but in other parts of the country—most notably in London—there has been repeated non-co-operation and industrial action to frustrate the agreement’s implementation. It is claimed by union representatives that in London the management are unilaterally imposing change that goes beyond the 2007 agreement’s first three phases. Management contest that, pointing out that all that London is being asked to accept is what everyone else in the country is delivering under the first three phases. It is those local disputes that have now escalated into the threatened national strike. I very much regret what is happening and, to put it candidly, we think that it is totally self-defeating for our postal services and for those who work in them. Taking industrial action will not resolve the dispute; it will serve only to drive more customers away from Royal 785 Royal Mail20 OCTOBER 2009 Royal Mail 786

[Mr. Pat McFadden] That is what is in the interests of the Royal Mail, its employees and its customers. I commend this statement Mail. In the delivery of parcels—where there would to the House. otherwise be a prospect of growth—Royal Mail’s reputation for reliability could be irrevocably damaged and in the Mr. Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): First, I join delivery of letters such action will lead to a further twist the Minister in hoping that management and trade in the downward spiral of mail volumes. Business will unions find some way of resolving the dispute and be quick to recognise that, while one can picket a avoiding a totally suicidal strike. They should return to delivery office to stop the service or refuse to deliver the previously agreed programme of modernisation as letters, one cannot picket the ever present internet. quickly as possible, in the interests of both the customers Royal Mail’s small business customers will look on and staff of Royal Mail. with anger and exasperation. Just as there are signs of Does the Minister agree that we should welcome the the economy recovering and the prospects for their management’s announcement that, if necessary, they businesses improving, strikes now will set them back will recruit temporary staff to maintain the service to and put their businesses in jeopardy. Royal Mail’s finances customers? Many small businesses would be threatened will be plunged into the red. Last year, out of a £6.7 billion by a continued dispute, and of course the possibility of mail business turnover, the company made less than 1 disruption to the Christmas mail looms before us. I per cent profit. One thing that the company cannot hope that he will welcome the management’s decision in afford is strikes and industrial action. that regard. Change in a big organisation is never easy, but for the Royal Mail it is unavoidable. Let me make it clear that, The Minister’s statement was factually accurate, but contrary to what some may say, the dispute is not about surely he does not think that he can wave away the pensions. The trustees are engaged in their periodic Government’s involvement in this matter. Is it not plain assessment of the pensions deficit and, lest there be any that it was the Government’s weakness in conceding on doubt, let me make it clear that the Government’s their policy of part-privatising Royal Mail that almost policy on the pensions deficit will not be dictated by immediately encouraged the Communication Workers strike action. The Government were prepared to take Union to believe that it could move to reopen the on the pensions deficit as part of a package of modernising two-year-old deal on modernisation and contemplate measures set out in the Postal Services Bill. Sadly, strike action? There seems to be a clear relationship however, the CWU did not support those proposals. between the two. When it comes to financing, the Government and the I welcome the continued commitment to the taxpayer have not held back. We have made available recommendations of the Hooper report, which we share, £1.2 billion to finance a modernisation and investment and the three key proposals which have to go together if programme, and that remains on the table. they are to proceed at all. I hope the Minister can reassure me that that resolution to the existing policy We are, of course, in frequent contact with both will be maintained in the face of the undoubted pressures management and the union. They have continued talking that he will come under if a strike goes on. After the today, and we strongly welcome that. Our message to cave-in on the Bill, can he reassure me that his weak them has been clear: put your customers first; strikes Prime Minister will not next induce him to start taking are not the way to resolve differences or safeguard the apart the Hooper recommendations and making future of our postal services. concessions to those who are challenging the modernisation The Royal Mail needs management and unions to programme? have a relentless focus on turning it into an efficient, As the Minister said in his statement—this is a stark modern postal company, protecting as many jobs as remark—if the company stands still, it faces terminal possible and providing customers with the services that decline. Is it acceptable in the face of such a dramatic they need. Both sides should put behind them, once and remark for the Minister to admit that the Government for all, the endless cycle of disputes. We will, of course, have no policy, are proceeding with no Bill, and are continue to encourage a settlement, but we cannot capable of doing nothing as the service looks likely to impose good industrial relations on the company, or face a risk of terminal decline? Does he agree that if disinvent the internet. An independent third party may things continue in this way—I do not blame him personally; well be needed to help the two sides resolve their differences. I am sure it is the Prime Minister and the majority of ACAS is engaged, but we have to be realistic: it will be the Cabinet who are responsible for this frozen impasse—he far easier for ACAS to play an effective role if the threat will leave to the next Government after the election in of a national strike is lifted. May whatever wreckage remains of an extremely important The Government are ensuring that vital services to public service and the mail system of this country? He the public, especially those who are most vulnerable, are seemed powerless to do anything about it. maintained. If necessary, the Department for Work and Finally, would it be fair to regard the issue, as I regard Pensions will implement plans to ensure that the small it, as a symbol of the Government’s continuing ability minority of pensioners and others on benefits who still to modernise and reform our great public services? Do receive their cheques in the post will be able to pick not the facts as set out in the Minister’s statement show them up from their nearest post office. If the disruption that on that front this dying Government are weak, is prolonged the Department of Health and NHS trusts impotent, powerless and, like most members of the will make alternative arrangements to transport public, a horrified spectator of events as they unfold in appointment notifications, blood samples and test results. the Royal Mail, over which they no longer have any We urge both sides to make every effort to avoid control and for which they can no longer take any damaging industrial action and to resolve this dispute. responsibility? 787 Royal Mail20 OCTOBER 2009 Royal Mail 788

Mr. McFadden: There is, of course, nothing new Mr. McFadden: I shall try to go through the issues about the Royal Mail hiring temporary staff at this time that the hon. Gentleman raises. He is absolutely right of year. It does that every year. This year it is hiring that the world has changed and people have more because of the situation that it faces. communications alternatives. That stark fact should The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked me concentrate everyone’s minds as they stand on the threshold about Government involvement. The Government have of the dispute. It is why, indeed, a strike would be so put up £1.2 billion to finance the modernisation that is tragic for our postal service and those who work in it. at the heart of the dispute. Far from that being delayed The hon. Gentleman referred to the switch from or held back by the dispute, we want to see it proceed mail, and, as I said in my statement, there is already a because that is in the interests of the Royal Mail and its highly developed market in parcels. High street retail workers. What we cannot do is impose on the company chains already, sadly, carry adverts saying, “Fed up with the productive industrial relations that are needed for postal strikes? We don’t use the Royal Mail”, and I fear that to happen. In the end, ACAS involvement or not, that we will simply see more of that if the strike goes that must be down to management and unions working ahead. through the issues that are needed to take modernisation Some 50 companies account for some 40 per cent. of forward. the mail that is posted by letter every day. If a major The right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke about shift is made by those companies, away from mail to the Postal Services Bill. I note his party’s position, as set paperless billing and greater incentives for direct debit out in the Financial Times this morning. We said that we payment, it could do permanent damage to Royal Mail’s would not proceed with the Bill at this time owing to prospects. Again, my fear is that industrial action would market conditions, and that is precisely what his party only make such a shift more likely. set out as its position in the Financial Times this morning. The hon. Gentleman asked about the delivery of It too would want to test the market before proceeding pensions and benefits. Those sent through the post are with the Bill. I note his position on that, as set out this now a fairly small minority; most are paid either directly morning. into bank accounts or through the Post Office card account. As I said, for the minority who still receive John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) benefits through the post, the Department for Work (LD): I am grateful to the Minister for the courtesy of and Pensions will make arrangements to try to ensure an advance copy of his statement. that people do not lose out on the money to which they are entitled. As the Minister made clear, Royal Mail is no longer the essential business tool that it once was. The combination of electronic communications, growth in parcel delivery Mr. Ian McCartney (Makerfield) (Lab): As a former services and competition for business mail means that postal services Minister, I must say that we have been Royal Mail has a future only if it becomes competitive 12 years in coming to this point, and it is really important in that new environment. The present dispute will not that a Sir George Bain-type figure is appointed to assist that goal. It may, indeed, hasten the demise of negotiate a settlement—negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. Royal Mail by precipitating a flight to other suppliers. Why? Because front-line staff and customers in every one of our constituencies deserve better. If people give Does the Minister agree that many larger businesses up the skill, knowledge and commitment to negotiate, have already announced plans to place contracts with they will be as much use as a chocolate fireguard at alternative suppliers, but that others which are less able defending their members’ interests or the company’s to do so are particularly vulnerable, and that this dispute long-term interests. I ask my right hon. Friend to make will have a disproportionate effect on them? I refer, in sure that the management and the union get around the particular, to small businesses, some of our most vulnerable table to resolve the issue to ensure that the company citizens and people in rural areas, all of whom have the and its front-line staff have a future, and that its customers least alternative choice. Does the Minister agree that a can get on with their business. prolonged dispute poses a clear and present danger to the universal service obligation? What steps will the Government take to ensure its survival? Mr. McFadden: My right hon. Friend makes his point very effectively. On third party involvement, ACAS is The Minister has assured us that benefits payments engaged, but I believe that it would be far better able to by the Department for Work and Pensions will, for carry out the very effective role that it often can carry those in receipt, be available at post offices. Will he give out if the threat of industrial action were lifted. ACAS similar assurances regarding winter fuel payments, which stands ready to give assistance in the dispute, and, if the are coming up shortly? What about the volume of mail management and union believe that that would be that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs sends out on effective, the service is available. tax credits, and its other correspondence? Will the Minister confirm that the Government plan to seek alternative My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: in the end, suppliers in the private sector for their own postal whatever the involvement of a third party, it will be business? What assessment has been made of the impact down to the management and the union to work out for of that decision on Royal Mail’s future? Royal Mail a future that gets away from the pattern, seen not just once but consistently, of localised disputes, Part of the reason why we are in this situation is the time and time again, over changes that would be normal stalled legislation. The Minister well knows that I would practice in other parts of industry. not have begun it, but he must now accept that having started and then stopped is worse than not having started in the first place. Several hon. Members rose— 789 Royal Mail20 OCTOBER 2009 Royal Mail 790

Mr. Speaker: Order. About 20 Members are seeking Mr. McFadden: It is certainly true that one of the to catch my eye. There is important business to follow in changes agreed in the 2007 agreement is that, instead of the form of the Second Reading debate, so once again I the previous practice, which was known as job and am looking for single, short supplementary questions finish and sometimes meant people going home a couple and brief replies. of hours before the end of the hours for which they were paid, postal workers would work the hours for Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): Does not the which they were paid, which might also mean being Minister see that the uncertain note that the Government more flexible about how they went about their job have sounded about the future of the Postal Services during that period. Bill must have contributed to the decision of the Communication Workers Union to threaten industrial Colin Burgon (Elmet) (Lab): The Minister, in his action? Can he therefore clarify the future of that Bill, disappointingly one-sided statement, talked about the which is still languishing under remaining orders on the need for productive industrial relations. How can there Order Paper? That would also have the benefit of clarifying possibly be productive industrial relations with a the limbo into which Postcomm and Ofcom have been management who sabotaged the fourth phase of the thrown by the delay to the Bill. agreement and who he knows, in his heart of hearts, have no commitment to keeping the service in the public Mr. McFadden: During discussions on the Hooper sector and want to privatise it so that they can put package we were told time and again that there was no money in their own pockets? need for some of the reforms suggested in it because everyone was up for change. Yet since the Government Mr. McFadden: Discussions about phase four of the said that we would not proceed with the Bill at this agreement are continuing. That is absolutely essential, stage, we have seen not change but a return to the because in many ways phase four is more important destructive pattern of industrial disputes over change than phases one to three. Phase four is about the large-scale and modernisation in the postal service. There was an introduction of walk-sequencing machines that will opportunity for those who disagreed with the Hooper sort the round by post and, if that change is introduced package to show that change could be delivered, but successfully, place Royal Mail on a par with some of the that opportunity has not been taken up; in fact, the very more modernised postal services elsewhere in Europe. opposite has happened. On regulation, we will encourage a closer working Mr. (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): together of Postcomm and Ofcom, because the postal Even without yet having had the impact of strike action service must be seen in the light of the wider we have had the alarming news in that one of communications market. To go back to the point made the major public sector contracts—the Procurement by the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Scotland contract, which deals with mail to the NHS, Easter Ross (John Thurso), there are alternatives, and colleges and most councils in Scotland—is going to be we are all using them every day. given to a private sector operator. What can the Minister do to ensure that the haemorrhaging of business from Geraldine Smith (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab): private businesses, to which he referred, does not spread If Royal Mail’s case is so strong, why is it not prepared to the public sector? to go to arbitration? Why is it saying that it will consider it only if the union calls off the strike? That is silly Mr. McFadden: Competition exists in the postal service, playground posturing. It should get to arbitration, and and it will not go away and cannot be wished away. I arbitration should be binding on both sides. This is want a Royal Mail that is fit to win in that market, causing misery for businesses and people up and down rather than one that simply wishes competition to go the country, and the Government are washing their away. The most fundamental challenge to Royal Mail is hands of it. Get in and sort this out! not competition from other mail companies but competition from other communications technologies. That must lie Mr. McFadden: It is absolutely not the case that the at the heart of the response to the threatened dispute. Government are washing their hands of this dispute. We remain in regular contact with the union and the Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): Everyone management. Ministers have met union representatives listening to the statement will have greeted it with twice in recent weeks, and we are also in regular contact dismay and anger. As long as the Royal Mail is in public with the management. As I said, ACAS is engaged and ownership, what is done is done in the Government’s stands ready to help, but of course it is easier for it to name. We are talking not about the Premiership but play a constructive role if the threat of industrial action about a precious public institution, so will the Minister is lifted. instruct Adam Crozier to go to ACAS and get a negotiated solution? Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham) (Con): Does the Minister have any idea how many postal workers, particularly in Mr. McFadden: The dismay and anger will be on the London, have second jobs? It is the threat—[Interruption.] part of the public, who cannot understand why a strike It is the threat that they might have to work a full shift should proceed. I have seen a number of interviews for which they are paid that is adding to the militancy. about the dispute with spokespeople in recent days, and [Interruption.] although various grievances have been outlined, no clear reason has been given why the country, the economy Mr. Speaker: Order. and the public should be facing a national postal strike 791 Royal Mail20 OCTOBER 2009 Royal Mail 792 this week. ACAS is ready to play a role, but it will be far down, took away such inflammatory ideas and reached better able to do so if the threat of industrial action is a proper negotiated settlement? If ACAS has to be part lifted. of that, let us help ACAS rather than use the strike as an excuse. Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): Concern is growing that the Secretary of State is deliberately Mr. McFadden: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to antagonising the union to commit suicide, to pave the say that there has been a history of poor industrial way for full privatisation on the basis that privatising a relations in Royal Mail. Not only did we have a national third of the business is almost impossible to achieve. strike two years ago and various local disputes in between, Will the Minister explain why that concern is not justified? leading up to the current situation, but poor industrial relations have been a constant feature of the attempt to Mr. McFadden: We have been clear throughout that introduce change in the company. we will keep Royal Mail in the public sector, and there is no hidden agenda to privatise it. We made that clear My hon. Friend referred to a story that was in the throughout the debates on the Hooper report. media over the weekend. Let me read out Royal Mail’s statement on the story: Mr. Chris Mullin (Sunderland, South) (Lab): Further “The contents of the e-mail sent to us by Newsnight do not to that point, I am glad to note what the Minister says reflect Royal Mail’s policy, strategy or position in relation to the about the Government’s intentions, but is he aware that current dispute with the CWU…No member of the board or the senior management team at Royal Mail has seen, or is aware of there is an underlying fear among postal workers that any such presentation…For the avoidance of any doubt Royal the long-term objective of management is to privatise Mail has never had any strategy to derecognise the CWU and nor and casualise the industry? Can he say anything to allay would we seek to do so.” the fears of the work force on that point? Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Will the Minister give Mr. McFadden: The best way to allay the fears of the an undertaking that any mail that moves to the private work force is to have a secure agreement about the sector during the dispute will return 100 per cent. and modernisation of Royal Mail that is implemented. Whether immediately to Royal Mail at the end of the dispute? or not third parties are involved, that is what must come Will the Government get off their butt and actually get out of this. The tragedy is that we could achieve that in touch with Adam Crozier and the management? without a national dispute and the damage that it causes. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I just gently say to the hon. Mr. Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): Gentleman, who is an experienced Member, that one The Minister is, I know, aware that the closure of the question means one question? Crewe mail centre would result in significant job losses that could equate in the current climate to an increase in Mr. McFadden: There is no question of our not being local jobseeker’s allowance claimants of 25 per cent. in touch with those involved in the dispute. As I said, we Does he agree that, for the sake of local employment in have been in regular touch with people on both sides of a recession, it is important that we separate the original it. On the question of lost business, the fear for Royal review of the mail centre network from the current Mail is that people have alternatives. If the company’s dispute? service is constantly threatened by strike action, the likelihood is that people will use alternatives. I believe Mr. McFadden: I am afraid that I cannot agree with that that is tragic for Royal Mail, for our postal service the hon. Gentleman that we should put the issue of and for the good men and women who work in it. mail centres on ice. We have pretty much the same number of centres around the country as we had before Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I am sure that the internet was invented. I do not know whether he the Minister will agree that everyone should do what heard what I said in my statement about the fall in mail they can to cool this down. If that is the case, why does volumes, but of course that will mean changes to mail he think that the management of Royal Mail have told centres. I appreciate the effect that that can have in an workers today that if they attend the picket line on their area if it loses its mail centre, but I have to disagree with day off, they will be deducted a day’s pay? Is that the him because it would be wrong for the Government to way to promote good industrial relations? instruct Royal Mail that it had to keep the same number of mail centres for ever and a day when it is trying to introduce change throughout the rest of the company. Mr. McFadden: I am not aware of the announcement to which my hon. Friend refers. I agree that cool heads John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): I declare are probably required in this situation, because if the an interest: as somebody who was a CWU member for strike goes ahead, it will not be in the interests of Royal 21 years, I am perhaps not as unbiased as some. Mail or those who work in it. The Post Office and Royal Mail management have been known for years as not being able to get on with Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) their work force, yet we have done nothing about it. We (Con): Will the right hon. Gentleman take every opportunity saw on television last Sunday a document come into the to impress upon trade union leaders that in view of the public domain that was intended to inflame the situation. changes in technology and information communication Now they are talking about increasing the number of their only future lies in accepting fundamental and part-time workers, inflaming it even more. Does my continuing change, and that being so, they do not enjoy right hon. Friend not agree that it is time that they sat public support? 793 Royal Mail20 OCTOBER 2009 Royal Mail 794

Mr. McFadden: The frustration of the situation is point about which the two sides are meeting as we that everyone says that they are up for change in the speak, to talk it through and try to avoid industrial face of the technological revolution to which the right action later this week. hon. and learned Gentleman refers, but when it comes down to it, attempts to implement change are constantly Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Earlier, the frustrated by disputes. It is absolutely true that Royal Minister skilfully dodged one of the questions asked by Mail and its workers must get beyond that pattern if we my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for are to have a prosperous postal service in future and to Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke). Will he make it clear whether maintain the universal service that, as a social glue, is so he thinks that the 30,000 temporary staff being hired by important to the whole country. Royal Mail are a good thing or a bad thing?

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Is the Minister Mr. McFadden: That is what it does every year. aware that it takes two sides to cause a dispute? Is he aware that the ballot result was 70 per cent. in favour? Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Minister must That is democracy, and it is set against employers know that parts of the statement that he has made who have inflamed the situation by deciding to recruit today, and the one that has been made in the House of 30,000 agency workers. I know which side I am on. I am Lords, will be contested by the union. How does he on the side of those who deliver the mail. think that that is helpful in this situation, and can Ministers not move beyond providing questionable Mr. McFadden: My understanding is that the 30,000 commentary in the House and get the union and the people recruited are not agency workers, but that they company into the same room at the same time, with the are directly hired, as Royal Mail hires every year. My Government? hon. Friend is absolutely right—I have huge respect for him—that it will take two sides to negotiate a proper Mr. McFadden: As I said, we have remained in constant solution. touch with both sides and we have urged them to focus Talks are taking place today—I said this in my on the public—the people who depend on Royal Mail—and statement—and we welcome that. We hope even at this avoid strike action. Of course we stand ready to help in late stage that a settlement is possible without the any way we can, but we cannot impose good industrial damaging industrial action that has been threatened. relations on a company that has a history of going on My message to both sides is this: keep talking, keep strike whenever an attempt is made to implement change. focusing on the public, keep focusing on the small businesses that depend on Royal Mail and try to avoid Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): Morale among the strike action threatened for later this week. postal workers is at a very low ebb; that is why there was such a strong vote in favour of strike action by people who know that a strike would be disastrous. In that Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) context, is it not right and proper for us to insist on (Con): I was disappointed by how little the Minister mediation that brings union and management into the had to say about the protection of the everyday consumer. same room, to work and work until there are some With that in mind, does he rule out this Government common grounds for agreement? They will not do that removing the last vestiges of the monopoly that Royal on their own, because there is no trust between the Mail has enjoyed, to the detriment of so many of the management and the union. consumers who have relied on that service? Mr. McFadden: There has been a history of third Mr. McFadden: Royal Mail does not have a monopoly, party involvement in Royal Mail. Some years ago, Lord and that is the point that I am making. It operates in a Sawyer carried out an inquiry into industrial relations competitive environment, and if a strike goes ahead, in the Royal Mail, and George Bain and others have those who can use alternatives will be more likely to do also examined the company in the past. There has been so. That will be damaging for Royal Mail and it will also no shortage of third party involvement. ACAS stands damage those who work for it. That is why a strike ready to play a role if both parties think that that would would be self-defeating, and we should do all that we be helpful. I am sure that ACAS would be able to play a can to avoid it. productive role, but that would have a far better chance of working if the threat of industrial action were lifted. Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) (Lab): Is the Minister aware that in Islington an agreement Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Is it not fair to was reached under which there would be cuts in staff say that businesses are being put at risk if the strike numbers and changes in working practices to pave the continues? Families of postal workers are also losing way for more machinery—but that the difficulty was income in this desperate situation. Has not the time that national management walked in and tore that come for the Minister, who is the custodian of the agreement up? That is why the workers there are on shares in Royal Mail, to use his influence and shareholder strike. power to ensure that the two parties sit round the table with ACAS and do not come out until this has been Mr. McFadden: The allegation in London by the resolved amicably? union is that management have gone beyond the agreement reached in 2007. Management contests that and says Mr. McFadden: They are round the table. There has that all that London is being expected to implement are been nothing lacking in the volume of meetings between the changes that have already been accepted and Royal Mail management and the unions. I have heard implemented throughout the country. It is precisely that talk of 70 to 80 meetings. ACAS is ready to assist and, 795 Royal Mail 20 OCTOBER 2009 796 as I have said on more than one occasion today, it Marine Accident Investigation Branch would be easier for ACAS to play a productive role if (Reports) the threat of industrial action were lifted. Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): It is No. 23) not clear to me, from what the Minister has said, whether Royal Mail is prepared to go to ACAS. We know that the trade unions are prepared to do so. The 4.35 pm situation is pretty serious. I have been involved in a few David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): I beg to move, disputes in my time, and it is not easy for anybody to go on strike as a result of intransigent management. Small That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision to businesses and the families of those involved are suffering oblige shipping companies, port operators and other bodies to because of what is happening. There have been a lot of comply with recommendations made in reports of the Chief Inspector of Marine Accidents and of the Marine Accident uncertainties—for 12 years, somebody said—and the Investigation Branch; and for connected purposes. Minister should now intervene directly. On 19 December 2007, the Greenock-based tug, the Mr. McFadden: I believe that Royal Mail is prepared Flying Phantom, sank in thick fog in the River Clyde to involve ACAS in the dispute, but obviously it feels with the loss of three of her crew. The dead men were that that would have more chance of success if the Eric Blackely, aged 57, from Gourock; Robert Cameron, threat of industrial action was lifted. aged 65, from Houston in Renfrewshire; and the skipper, Stephen Humphreys, from Greenock, who was just 33 years old. There was one survivor: Brian Aitchison, from the borders. In the aftermath, an investigation was carried out by the marine accident investigation branch. The investigation was thorough and exhaustive, and finally reported in September 2008, some nine months after the accident. The report runs to 55 pages and contains key safety-related recommendations addressed to all the protagonists: Svitzer Marine Ltd, which owned the tug and employed the crew; the port operator, Clydeport; the British Tugowners Association; and Lloyds Register. Yet,despite the fact that the MAIB is a statutory body, created by the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, and reports directly to the Secretary of State for Transport, its recommendations have no force of law. They are not legally binding and can be ignored with impunity. That exposes a fundamental flaw in the structure of the MAIB. My Bill would make its recommendations legally binding, within a proper framework for implementation and appeal. To understand the need for the Bill, hon. Members need to consider how the MAIB has been constituted. Its website states: “As far as the MAIB is concerned, the sole objective of investigating an accident is to determine its circumstances…with the aim of improving the safety of life at sea and the avoidance of accidents in the future. It is not the purpose to apportion liability, nor, except so far as is necessary to achieve the fundamental purpose, to apportion blame. We do not enforce laws or carry out prosecutions.” That is all well and good, but it raises a question: if, after an exhaustive inquiry, the MAIB makes recommendations that it believes will improve the safety of life at sea and help to avoid accidents in the future, and if such recommendations are then ignored, what is the point of it? I raised that point in a meeting with the Minister then responsible for transport and his officials. I ventured to suggest that MAIB recommendations could be ignored with impunity. “That’s not the case,” said an official. I was told that if a company or an organisation does not comply, 12 months later the MAIB can put a note on its website to that effect. That is not good enough. It should not be left to the discretion of companies or organisations whether or not to comply with key safety recommendations made by the very body whose job it is to determine the cause of accidents and to prevent them in future. 797 Marine Accident Investigation Branch 20 OCTOBER 2009 Marine Accident Investigation Branch 798 (Reports) (Reports) [David Cairns] the MAIB, at considerable public expense. However, in the absence of a satisfactory outcome, no wonder such In the case of the Flying Phantom, there is an ongoing calls have been made: at least the recommendations of a dispute about whether the recommendations have in judicial inquiry would have to be complied with. fact been complied with, especially on the critical issue I fully understand that there are complex legal issues of assessing the risks caused by fog. Clydeport says that at stake and a fear that if companies thought that it has complied and that the issue of fog warning liabilities would flow from an MAIB report, they would systems has been addressed. The trade union Unite, led not co-operate as fully as they do now, but that is just by its Scottish regional secretary John Quigley, which too bad. The current situation is absurd and should be represents the crew, says that Clydeport has not complied. changed by means of a simple amendment to the Merchant More importantly for me, the widows of the men who Shipping Act 1995. died continue to believe that the river is not as safe as it Two years ago, just one week before Christmas, three could be, and that other families might have to face the families lost their husbands, sons, brothers and fathers. terrible ordeal that they and their families have gone For those families, the festive season has taken on a through. tragic quality. It is impossible to meet the widows of The issue is far too important to be left to that “He those men—Mrs. Helen Humphreys, Mrs. Linda Cameron says/she says” approach. Recommendations have been and Mrs. Eileen Blackely—and not be impressed by the made and should be enforced or properly appealed great dignity and composure with which they have against. The grey area that we currently occupy serves endured their terrible ordeal. They are not after untold no one at all, least of all the companies and organisations riches in compensation. They are not looking for heads involved. I do not want my Bill or this speech to be seen to roll. They know that nothing can bring their husbands as an exercise in bashing Clydeport. It is an extremely back to them. All that they have asked me to do is important company in my constituency and I seek to ensure that recommendations in MAIB reports are enjoy good relations with it. I also know that the implemented, so that other families are not put through harbourmaster, Captain Ron Bailey, is a decent and the appalling misery that they continue to suffer. For conscientious man who is dedicated to the safety of their sake, and in memory of the men who died, that is those who sail the waters of the Clyde. what we should do. Question put and agreed to. I understand that Clydeport has reservations about the way in which the MAIB went about the investigation, Ordered, and it is quite entitled to have and to express those That David Cairns, Jim Sheridan, Mr. Alan Reid, reservations. However, the dubiety about how John Robertson, Miss Anne Begg, Mr. Russell Brown, recommendations have been implemented—or about Mr. Brian H. Donohoe, Mr. Ian Davidson, Mark whether they have been implemented at all—leaves us Lazarowicz, Mr. Frank Doran and Ms Katy Clark all in the worst of all possible worlds. That is why calls present the Bill. have been made for a further judicial inquiry. However, David Cairns accordingly presented the Bill. the facts of the case have already been established. Such Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on an inquiry would be likely to replicate the findings of Thursday 22 October and to be printed (Bill 151). 799 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 800 Governance Bill Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): Nobody can doubt that the Government have pursued a huge agenda on [Relevant Documents: The Tenth Report from the Public constitutional reform, but may I press my right hon. Administration Select Committee, Session 2007-08, on Friend on the way our judges have been appointed? Constitutional Renewal: Draft Bill and White Paper, Does he feel that we perhaps went a little too quickly as HC 499, and the Government response, Cm 7688; and the far as judicial appointments were concerned—hence Eleventh Report from the Justice Committee, Session the concerns that have been expressed about some of 2008-09, on Constitutional Reform and Renewal, HC 923, the constitutional changes? I am not talking about the and the Government response, HC 1017.] grand vision of what the Government have done—which Second Reading has been amazing, in my view—but about some of the detail, which really needs to be scrutinised very carefully. The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor (Mr. Jack Straw): I have it in command from Her Mr. Straw: I agree with the gravamen of what my Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her right hon. Friend says. Surprisingly—or amazingly, to Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the pick up the adverb used my right hon. Friend—not Bill, has consented to place her prerogative and interest, everything that the Government have done over the last so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of 12 years has been absolutely perfect. [Interruption.] Parliament for the purposes of the Bill. Much has been but, with the benefit of hindsight, the changes to judicial appointments, although very well 4.45 pm intentioned and aimed at ensuring that Ministers—in Mr. Straw: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a practice, only one Minister, the Lord Chancellor—were Second time. removed from the process, have had some odd and In 1997, the Government embarked on an unprecedented perverse consequences. The process has become longer programme of constitutional reform. Power was devolved and it is also a matter of great regret that the progress away from Westminster to Scotland, Wales and Northern gradually being made to improve the diversity of the Ireland, fundamental rights were enshrined in the Human judiciary, particularly at senior level, with more women Rights Act, freedom of information legislation was and more black and Asian people has been stemmed. introduced, national statistics were placed on an entirely My right hon. Friend, along with the whole House, is independent basis, the Bank of England was made concerned about that, and I view it as significant. independent, and the first step was taken towards a A further matter was aired by Lord Phillips in a reformed House of Lords. major lecture he gave in Kenya when he was Lord Chief Surveying all this in an editorial yesterday, The Guardian Justice. There is a role, although it has to be a careful newspaper asked us to role, for the Executive in the appointment of the most “look at the last 12 years. Labour’s dispersal of power, had it been senior members of the judiciary. That is true in all set out as a blueprint, would have appeared revolutionary.” Administrations and it has to be very carefully exercised. Some of that was accepted in the Constitutional Actually, it was set out as a blueprint, although each Reform Act 2005, but it remains to be seen whether step has always appeared rather prosaic. There has that, and a more sensitive overall arrangement for judicial rarely been intense excitement in the House, apart from appointments, should be introduced in future. over the devolution Bills, as each step has been taken. I recall another exception, involving my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), one memorable Keith Vaz: It is my understanding, however, that the evening during an untimed Report stage debate—which Bill will do the opposite of what my right hon. Friend I hope to see back—of the Freedom of Information intends. Is it not the case that the Bill will remove the Bill, when what was described as a mutual seminar was Prime Minister from the process of the appointment of engaged in. I offered to alter the Bill for the better, the president, the deputy president and members of the although some colleagues perhaps think differently.Anyway, Supreme Court? I offered to alter it to make it more workable as a result of the intense debate that took place. Generally, however, Mr. Straw: It removes the Prime Minister’s role, but it these proposals have been widely accepted. does not remove that of the Lord Chancellor. Successive This Bill is similar, because, while each of its proposals Prime Ministers would probably accept that, in practice, could be dismissed as prosaic, when added to all the the acceptability of appointments has simply been in other changes that have been introduced in the past the hands of the Lord Chancellor of the day. I may be dozen years, they will add up to a major shift in power wrong, but I have never heard of any Prime Minister away from Whitehall to Parliament and to the British turning back a recommendation for a senior appointment people. In other words, the Bill builds on our achievements made by the Lord Chancellor of the day. The Prime and has been designed to bring about the right relationship Minister today is very happy about that; so, may I say, between Parliament, the Government and the citizen. am I. The provenance of the Bill is the announcement by Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): We all are. my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr. Brown), just after he became Prime Minister in June 2007. Indeed, his announcement to the Mr. Straw: The hon. and learned Gentleman says House on 3 July was his first major announcement on that we all are. That is not the problem; it is the any issue as Prime Minister. Alongside that announcement, bureaucratic process that is the problem. I published the Green Paper “The Governance of Britain”, Let me return to summarising the Bill. Following the which set out further proposals for reforming our publication of the Green Paper, we established a programme constitutional arrangements. of work to look at limiting Executive powers, to examine 801 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 802 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Straw] that proposals with which I used to be familiar— [Interruption.] Did the hon. Member for Cambridge how the workings of Government could be made more (David Howarth) say something sotto voce? transparent and accountable, and to consider what we might do to reinvigorate our democracy. I have already David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): It is surprising said that we made significant changes, including to that the Secretary of State does not understand the respective arrangements for appointing bishops and the proposals in great detail, given that the hon. Member granting of honours, and to further rules on the pre-release for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) seems to present them every of statistics. Gone are the days—the terrible days—of year. the previous Conservative Administration, when the Secretary of State for Employment, now Lord Tebbit, was able peremptorily to change the definitions of Mr. Straw: I mean that I used to be completely unemployment, for example, 18 times to suit the familiar with them. I do not retain every last detail of Government—[Interruption.] Well, it is true. Let me every issue that I have ever examined in the House, but provide a further example for the hon. Member for perhaps the hon. Gentleman would if he were in my Chichester (Mr. Tyrie)—that of sitting on major place. recommendations for major changes in the crime statistics, Part 1 of the Bill places the Civil Service Commission which would have had the effect of increasing the on a statutory footing, and reinforces its independence number of crimes counted. I accepted those changes in from Ministers. The commission’s status, powers and 1998, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, reporting arrangements are contained in schedule 1, as Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) accepted further ones in 2001, is the fact that the commissioners are appointed by Her but the Opposition subsequently used them, quite Majesty on merit following fair and open competition. preposterously, to suggest that violent crime had increased, Part 1 also sets out the power of the Minister for the when it was obviously the counting of violent crime Civil Service and the Foreign Secretary to manage the that had increased. In any case, we have done that, just civil service and the diplomatic service. as we have established a Youth Citizenship Commission and published a national security strategy and the draft legislative programme—all those things in the Prime Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Minister’s statement of 3 July 2007. Although it purports to be United Kingdom-wide, the Bill regrettably ignores the constitutional debate that is I deal now with the detail of the Bill. Ever since the raging up in Scotland. The Secretary of State’s party, Northcote-Trevelyan report of 1854 and the appointment along with the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, of the first Civil Service Commission in 1855, the engaged in the Calman commission process. That British civil service has been one of the best in the commission recommended that the appointment of chief world, renowned for its professionalism, integrity and civil servants should be devolved to Edinburgh. This is impartiality, and for its ability to serve successive the first opportunity that the House has had to legislate Administrations of different parties with their confidence— for that. Why is such a measure not included in the Bill? but never before has the service been placed on a proper statutory basis, with protection for its values and its staff. The Bill does that. Mr. Straw: The Bill does not ignore that debate. Its purpose is to place the existing arrangements for the Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I welcome the civil service on a statutory footing. If in due course it provisions in the Bill, but one small part is missing: the were generally agreed to devolve power over the United part that I have been promoting for a number of years Kingdom civil service altogether to Scotland and Wales— in a private Member’s Bill to deal with nationality Northern Ireland has long had a separate civil service—that discrimination in Crown employment. There have been could come before the House in due course, but as the many recommendations for dealing with the matter, hon. Gentleman, who I know is a partisan in this and I think that the Bill has cross-party support, except respect, will recognise, there is much to be said on both from one or two of the backwoodsmen on the Opposition sides. Some of us believe that following a devolution Benches. settlement that transferred a significant amount of power The nationality discrimination that we operate is from Whitehall and Westminster to Edinburgh, it is contrary to a number of the United Kingdom’s international important to maintain some of the glue of the Union. human rights obligations. Perhaps my right hon. Friend While the hon. Gentleman’s interest is in putting solvent will consider whether it would be possible to introduce in the glue, ours is in ensuring that the glue stays strong. the three or four new clauses necessary to deal with the I am pleased to note that the hon. Member for Epping problem. That would ensure that if rules did require Forest (Mrs. Laing), who hails from Scotland, endorses people to be United Kingdom nationals, those rules what I have said. were genuinely needed and did not perpetuate long-standing The Government are committed to a civil service that discrimination that goes back 200 or 300 years. is governed by the key principles of impartiality, integrity, honesty and objectivity. We believe those values should Mr. Straw: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. I be enshrined in statute. Part 1 therefore requires the can tell him two things. First, he will have every opportunity Minister for the Civil Service and the Foreign Secretary in the course of what I believe will be a significant to prepare and lay before Parliament codes of conduct amount of time on the Floor of the House to table his for the civil service and the diplomatic service, with own amendments. Secondly, I shall be happy to ensure certain minimum requirements. Those codes will form that both the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my part of the terms and conditions of civil servants, and right hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon the Civil Service Commission will be able to investigate (Mr. Wills), and I discuss the matter with him. I understand allegations that the code has been breached. 803 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 804 Governance Bill Governance Bill Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I code if it is on a statutory basis. I do not excuse what warmly welcome the proposals to place the civil service happened then in the least—nobody would—but codes on a statutory footing in terms of requirements for its may be broken under any Government, and where they practice, but is my right hon. Friend satisfied that those are, appropriate and tough action must follow. proposals extend to the full area that the civil service currently occupies? Following the Northcote-Trevelyan Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): May I report, which resulted in an arrangement for an put to the Lord Chancellor a point that I hope he will undifferentiated civil service, we have next steps agencies, keep an eye on? In terms of our discussions in the non-governmental bodies and various agencies of the House about whether the staff of Members should be civil service which expand the definition of the civil employed by the House—there are quite good arguments service to a considerable extent. Is he happy that the for doing that—we risk getting a mismatch with what is Bill’s provisions cover what we now regard as the civil happening in the Bill. If Members have on their staff a service in its full, differentiated glory? person who is essentially a political adviser, were he to be made subject to the civil service-like conditions of Mr. Straw: I hope they do, but as my hon. Friend the House itself there would be a disparity between raises this point let me add that I am happy to ensure Back-Bench Members and Ministers. I hope the right that they do. There is an issue to do with the growth of hon. Gentleman recognises that, given his interest in the next steps agencies and non-departmental public bodies, Bill, he should keep a continuing interest in those which have arisen since the reforms introduced by the discussions. previous Administration in the early 1990s. It is certainly of concern to me that NDPBs can appoint their own staff and that they are not public servants; that creates Mr. Straw: We will, of course, keep a continuing difficulties and can lead to unacceptable and unjustifiable interest in those discussions, but let me also say the levels of pay and wage drift, as well as other anomalies following. I employed people under Short money when and conditions. I was in the shadow Cabinet for 10 years and on the Let me now turn to an issue in which some of us shadow Front Bench for 17 years. The truth is that should declare at least a past interest, and in which those employed under Short money are subject to far others may have a future one: the role of special advisers. fewer, if any, restrictions than special advisers. I know It says in my speaking notes: that to my certain knowledge. I should also mention “Special advisers have a valuable role to play in advising and that the amount of Short money available to the Opposition assisting Ministers on Government policy.” has trebled in the past dozen years, although they have not made much use of it. Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Hear, hear. Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): The Bill is Mr. Straw: I thank the hon. Lady for that. I was about setting down some fundamental principles. We about to say that I was one of the very first such think that one such principle is that special advisers can advisers, back in 1974, but I know that the hon. Lady “assist” Ministers—the Bill uses that term—but they was too, and there may be others on both sides of the cannot take Executive action or give orders to civil Chamber—such as the hon. Members for Chichester servants. The Bill does not specify that—does my right and for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns). hon. Friend think that it should? Special advisers add an important dimension to the advice available to Ministers while reinforcing the political impartiality of the permanent civil service by distinguishing Mr. Straw: In practice, special advisers cannot do from it the source of political advice and support. that; I am certainly ready to consider amendments to Before the introduction of special advisers, civil servants that effect. May I also just say—I have often reflected were sometimes placed in a compromising position on this—that I was an adviser for three and a half years where they were expected to undertake what were explicitly and I have appointed advisers for the past 12 and a half political roles. Before that, there had been quite a tradition years, and in neither role would I have thought it of private secretaries of senior Ministers being appointed remotely appropriate for a to have given by the Minister on a personal basis, which meant they instructions to a civil servant, but there are some exceptions, were, in a sense, in the same position as political advisers. which need to be borne in mind? When he came into I acknowledge that I am biased on this matter, but I office, the Prime Minister decided to repeal the Order in think good political advisers can greatly assist not only Council, introduced in 1997, that allowed for Jonathan their Ministers but the functioning of the civil service. Powell and to be able to give such instructions. I think that the Prime Minister was right Mr. Grieve: I am grateful to hear the Secretary of to repeal that, given the concern, but I do not necessarily State’s view, and I have no doubt at all that special think this is something that ought to be enshrined in advisers can play an important role. The Bill puts the statute; it may be better if it were in the code, because I code of conduct for special advisers on a statutory do not remotely regard it as a hanging offence for a basis, but why should we consider that that will make future Prime Minister to decide, for example, that the any difference when the code of conduct as it existed head of his office should combine both roles. That is a did not prevent Mr. McBride from behaving in the way different role from that of any other special adviser, he did in the Prime Minister’s office? but we can discuss that when we consider the details of the Bill. Mr. Straw: I think that having the code on a statutory The Bill also enshrines the principle of appointment basis will make a difference to behaviour, because there to the civil service on merit, and the principle of fair is a difference in terms of the status and authority of a and open competition. 805 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 806 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Straw] Chamberlain or the Earl Marshal. They are both very good people who do difficult jobs and a great deal of On the issue of treaties, every year, the UK becomes work, which is mainly unsung. party to many treaties that result in binding obligations Under the deal, the other hereditary peers had to under international law. Treaties that come into force form themselves into electoral chambers and elect from after the Government have expressed their consent to their number a total of 90. At the time—as I will be bound through a formal act such as ratification are perhaps be reminded—my noble Friend Lord Irvine subject to the so-called “Ponsonby rule”. It was named said: after Arthur Ponsonby, who was a member of the first “I respond to the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill, by saying Labour Cabinet, which sat for nine months in 1924. The quite unequivocally to the House that that figure of 90 will be rule requires the treaty to be published and laid before honoured by the Government throughout the period of the both Houses for a minimum of 21 sitting days prior to transitional House.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 May 1999; ratification, in order to give Parliament an opportunity Vol. 600, c. 1094.] to scrutinise it. I could well be asked why we are changing that arrangement Although the Ponsonby rule is well established—it at this stage. First, we are not requiring any current was quickly abandoned by the Conservative Administration sitting hereditary peer to resign his place in the Lords. who won the election in 1924, but it has been followed They will remain until they depart this mortal coil or post-war—it is based on constitutional convention, rather until further measures are introduced. than law, and Parliament has no ability formally to veto Secondly, as far as I am concerned, and, I think, as a ratification; it has been a Crown matter. As Foreign far as the House is concerned, 10 years ago there was no Secretary, I felt that that was simply wrong. One of the agreement whatsoever even within parties, still less between key roles of a Parliament is to decide whether or not to parties, about the future of the House of Lords. We had ratify international instruments; the power should be a royal commission, which did great work although its one for Parliament and, in particular, for this place; it recommendations were not entirely accepted, and then should not be a power for the Crown. I am delighted, as abortive votes in this House in February 2003. We then Justice Secretary, to put that right. Part 2 of the Bill had all-party talks between 2006 and 2007, the presentation places the Ponsonby rule in statute and, for the first of a White Paper in February 2007, which I was honoured time, gives legal force to a negative vote in the Commons to present to the House, and votes in this House that on the ratification of international treaties. opted clearly, on an all-party basis, for an 80 or 100 per Where Parliament requires more time for scrutiny, cent. elected Chamber and against all other alternatives. the Bill enables a Minister to extend the 21-day period There was then an intensive period of further all-party in respect of a treaty. Consistent with the Ponsonby talks that used that agreement as a template. I pay rule, provision is made for flexibility in exceptional tribute to colleagues from all parties who took part in circumstances, and there are exceptions for specific those talks. A further White Paper, published in July categories of treaty that are already subject to other 2008, set out how that agreement would operate and scrutiny arrangements. I am sorry not to see the hon. further work is now being done— Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) in his place, because I was fully expecting him to rise to the bait in this Bill and David Howarth: Will the Secretary of State give way? say what an outrage it was that European Union treaties were not mentioned in it. For those who wish to take his Mr. Straw: In a moment. Further work is now being place and foam at the mouth at the very idea of the done to bring about a framework for and draft clauses European Union, I must say that EU treaties are mentioned. of a Bill to implement that agreement. In my judgment, Colleagues will see that clause 24(1) states that this set therefore, the transitional House that people had in of arrangements does not cover treaties that amend mind 10 years ago is not what we envisage now. We are founding treaties of the European Union. That is because through that phase. there is already more extensive provision requiring those to be ratified by this House and by the other place. Before I accept the intervention from the hon. Member The third part of the Bill deals with the House of for Cambridge, let me just say that the by-elections have Lords. The House of Lords Act 1999 was an historic now reached a risible position. We are now electing and long overdue reform that removed the majority of people to the House of Lords who were not hereditary hereditary peers. Part 3 of the Bill contains a package of peers at the time that the House of Lords Act was measures to continue along that path towards a more passed. legitimised second Chamber. Colleagues will recall that when that legislation was going through the other place Mrs. Laing: But their fathers were. it ran into a roadblock set up by a Cecil, Viscount Cranborne. That family have five centuries, at least, of Mr. Straw: They are the sons. I note the point that the experience of disrupting government when they do not hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) makes, agree with it. but because of the time that has elapsed the system of As a consequence of the roadblock, a deal was struck by-elections has been used not to weaken the hereditary between those on the Opposition and Government Benches, principle but to maintain it. under which 92 hereditary peers would remain. Two We should look at the sort of electorates involved, as would remain ex officio: the Lord Great Chamberlain they flatter the electorates for the unreformed House of and the Earl Marshal. There is no argument about Commons before the Reform Act 1832. Dunchurch, those positions continuing to remain hereditary as long which fell into the sea, had 32 voters: in the last election as we have them. I would advise all colleagues, whatever for a hereditary, there were just 27 voters—and else they feel about the House of Lords, not to get into 33 candidates. Moreover, one electoral chamber has just an argument about the future of the Lord Great four electors. 807 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 808 Governance Bill Governance Bill David Howarth: I thank the Justice Secretary for Chris Huhne: Before the Lord Chancellor moves off giving way.As he will know, there were far fewer candidates the section of his speech dealing with the reform of in the days of the pocket boroughs, but will he confirm Parliament, I want to talk about the dog that has not that the second part of what he said about the future of barked in this Bill—that is, the proposals for the recall the House of Lords takes precedence over the first? Is of errant Members of this House, to which I think that he really saying that the hereditaries there now can stay the Prime Minister has signed up. Will the Lord Chancellor as long as they are alive? The youngest hereditary is tell us something about his plans in that regard, and 38 years old, which means that we could have the whether he intends to bring forward amendments in hereditary principle for perhaps another 50 or 60 years. Committee that would fill that gap? Will he give us some idea of what he sees as the timetable for switching to a fully elected, or 80 per cent. Mr. Straw: We are not intending to introduce elected, House of Lords? amendments to this Bill that would fill that gap, although we do intend to publish proposals about it. I think that Mr. Straw: Perhaps I did so rather too parenthetically, everyone understands the need for electorates to have but I did add a coda to the effect that hereditary peers the right to recall errant Members if they are not dealt will be with us until they are taken from this mortal coil, with properly in this or the other place. However, a or until Parliament passes legislation that transfers general election has to take place before 3 June, so every them out of the House. Member of this House will be subject to recall within the next six months. As it happens, therefore, there is no A great deal of detailed work, including the drafting urgency for this Parliament to make a decision on the of clauses, is now taking place to do what Parliament matter. It is important that we get it right: I do not want asked—that is, to introduce over three Parliaments a a recall mechanism that means that hon. Members who House of Lords that is mainly or wholly elected. Although are assiduous and hard working can be recalled because the Labour party manifesto has not been drafted, I of a policy argument, or because they voted against would be astonished if it was not our commitment to capital or abortion rights, for example. bring that into legislation early in the next Parliament. I hope that the party of the hon. Member for Cambridge The experience in the United States varies. There is shares that commitment. no recall mechanism for Members of Congress, nor for senators. There is a recall mechanism in some states of the Union. In some of those states, it is done for David Howarth indicated assent. reasons; in others, it can be done without a reason. Although the recall mechanisms are rarely used, the Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman seems to nod assent. threat of them can be very disruptive to the right of The Conservative party has signed up to the main individuals to do as Edmund Burke said—to represent propositions in the Green Paper, so I hope that its their electors and not to be their delegate. members can sign up to that one as well, including on the timing. Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Further to the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field), has the (Con): The Justice Secretary has rightly pointed out the Lord Chancellor had a chance to look at the proposals temporary nature of these arrangements, but would it that set out in some detail a term peerage approach—the not have been useful to bring in the category of temporary paper that I wrote with the present shadow Leader of peer? The Government of all the talents was a very the House when he was a Back Bencher, my right unrewarding experience: peers were appointed specifically hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire as Ministers, but after a year or so in the role they ended (Sir George Young)?Does that have the Lord Chancellor’s up disappearing back into the private sector with a seat support, and might he be prepared to consider an for life in the legislature. That is a very unsatisfactory amendment in Committee to enact some of those arrangement. Is this Bill not an opportunity to ensure proposals? that temporary peers appointed specifically as Ministers no longer have a place in the legislature once their term Mr. Straw: I have indeed read them. I think they were of ministerial office has ended? published by the University college London constitution unit. I do not wish to damage the hon. Gentleman’s future career, but I thought they were rather good. I do Mr. Straw: I am not opposed to that principle, and I not say that I agree with every part of them, but I am do not guarantee what stand the Government will take open-minded about the issue. I do not want to give a when the matter comes up. Other suggestions to have guarantee that we will accept amendments on it, because been made include appointing people to the Lords for the usual processes of consulting in Government have 10 or 15 years. The whole House—and I include the to take place, but I certainly wish to consider the Government and myself in this—need to be open-minded proposals. I hope that is a reasonable undertaking. about the matter. I shall make progress on other matters, as others wish to speak. Part 3 on the House of Lords includes measures Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): Will the Lord Chancellor to ensure that the House has a robust disciplinary give way? regime to deal with misconduct, to ensure that peers can be suspended or expelled, which they currently Mr. Straw: Of course I will, in one second. The cannot be. It provides that peers are to be disqualified Committee stage of the Bill will have quite a considerable from the House after a conviction for a serious criminal time on the Floor of the House, so let us see what offence or being subject to a bankruptcy restrictions proposition comes through. order. Currently it is an offence to the public that 809 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 810 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Straw] already exist to deal with the matter, so I hope that Westminster city council will use them rather more Members may have been convicted of a serious offence assiduously than it has up to now. and may still be able to serve, which Members cannot do in this House. Part 3 also allows peers to resign and, Mr. Mark Field: The Secretary of State will, I am if they wish to do so, to disclaim their peerage. I have sure, appreciate that there is an issue not simply for already indicated that we intend to bring forward proposals Westminster city council: advice is taken from the for further reform. Metropolitan police, and there are elements in the vicinity Part 4 deals with public order. The right to peaceful to which the ambit and rule of the Mayor of London protest is an important liberty and an essential component also applies. However, I agree with the right hon. of a healthy democracy. Following the statement from Gentleman: I personally feel that there is a right to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in July 2007, protest within the vicinity, but the incessancy and volume we have been reviewing the law on protests around of the noise is intolerable for those who work here, and Parliament. Our starting point has been to remove for the residential population, who do not live too far unnecessary restrictions on the right of protest, with a away. I agree with him, but I should not want to water presumption in favour of freedom of expression, balancing down the notion that there is some right, within what is that with the requirement that Members should be able an important part of the British constitutional make-up, to gain access to the House freely, that their work to protest here. We need a balance, but I do not disagree should not be disrupted, and that the general public, with the right hon. Gentleman’s view that the balance who may not necessarily be taking part in demonstrations, has gone too far in one direction. should not have their rights disrupted. Mr. Straw: May I just say, parenthetically, that I am Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford) (Con): Although one of the world’s experts on the land ownership of I fully appreciate that the Government are seeking to Parliament square? When it was dug up in 1999 during minimise any unnecessary restrictions on the right of the “Stop the City”demonstration, I was Home Secretary peaceful protest, are the Government confident that by and the Met’s police authority, and there were real extending the ban to only 250 metres, that will allow problems about which part was owned by whom. proper and reasonable access to this building? David Howarth rose— Mr. Straw: I think that is the case, but I would not dream of saying that the distance should be 250 metres Mr. Burns rose— and not 350. It would be ridiculous if I were to do so. The House needs to consider the matter and I promise Mr. Straw: I shall give way just once, to the hon. the hon. Gentleman that I will, too. Member for Cambridge, because I have already given way to the hon. Member for West Chelmsford. Mr. Dismore: I welcome the repeal of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 in so far as it David Howarth: I am rather worried by the Lord applies to Parliament. That follows recommendations Chancellor’s reply to the hon. Member for Hendon that my Committee has made on a number of occasions. (Mr. Dismore). The point about schedule 4 is that it The particular concern that I have is that the alternative provides extra powers over and above those about public arrangements are to be made by regulation. There is a order, and as far I can see, it provides them for the non-exhaustive list of conditions in the schedule. Would purpose only of my right hon. Friend consider an exhaustive list, and “maintaining…access to and from the Palace of Westminster.” also consider putting the conditions on the face of the The Lord Chancellor has, however, talked about using Bill to ensure that we have legal certainty in this difficult those provisions—not the more general ones, but those area of the law? provisions—for more general public order purposes, and the schedule should not be interpreted that way. Mr. Straw: Part 4 is very different from the provisions in the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, Mr. Straw: If I gave that impression, I did not mean which are being repealed. It gives a senior police officer to, because the schedule and its paving clauses exist to the power to impose certain conditions, and it amends deal with access to and egress from Parliament. the Public Order Act 1986. Those provisions in the 1986 Act and other, similar provisions are quite standard, Let me go on to deal with— and we must balance the right of demonstration with the need to ensure access and proper order. I see the Mr. Burns: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? hon. Member for this House—the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field)—in his Mr. Straw: No. Will the hon. Gentleman excuse me? place, and I hope that once the provision in the 2005 I have already been speaking for almost 45 minutes, and Act goes, we will be able to persuade Westminster city I need to stop. council to use its existing powers in byelaw to control Part 5 concerns human rights claims against the noise. devolved Administrations in Northern Ireland and Wales. Nowhere else in the country would tolerate such It has been introduced because the problem has been megaphone disruption. Leaving aside what the protestor particularly acute in Scotland. Hon. Members will wonder says, because I am not bothered about that, I must say why, therefore, Scotland is not mentioned in part 5, and that the current situation can be very disruptive for that is because discussions are taking place with the people in the building. It is terrible for the police Scottish Executive about the clauses, and relevant provisions officers and other staff on the gate. The relevant powers will be brought forward in Committee. 811 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 812 Governance Bill Governance Bill The issue arises from the Law Lords’ judgment in British democracy and better ensure that power lies Somerville v. Scottish Ministers, which found that the where it should—with Parliament and the people. I one-year time limit for claims under the Human Rights commend the Bill to the House. Act 1998 did not read across to human rights claims brought under the Scotland Act 1998. The same applies to the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and to the Government 5.32 pm of Wales Act 1998. With some exceptions, about which I do not think anybody argues, we will correct that Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): Let me point. I know that the news has been greatly welcomed begin by saying how much we welcome the fact that this in Scotland. Bill, for which we have been waiting for about two years, has finally arrived. I assure the House that we Part 6 deals with courts and tribunals, and it seeks to welcome many of its provisions, as the Lord Chancellor strengthen the independence of the judiciary and improve will have appreciated from the interventions that he the appointments process. received. I have to tell him, however, that it its title Part 7 has important proposals for strengthening the rather belies the paucity of its content. I fear that it is independence and the role of the Comptroller and unlikely to take its place as one of the great reforming Auditor General—and the National Audit Office—as Acts. well as in respect of his appointment. A little over two years ago, the Prime Minister, in his Part 8, which relates to the transparency of Government first speech to this House in that role, made a statement financial reporting to Parliament, refers to a point that that was intended to define his vision as Prime Minister. was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for I remember it very well. He promised us Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) about how “change in a spirit that takes us beyond parties and beyond Government spending is reported to Parliament. At partisanship…a new…constitutional settlement…a new relationship present, the spending of some quangos and non- between citizens and Government”, departmental public bodies, and certain other central and it was to start immediately: Government bodies, is included in the budget of the parent department, but not in the estimates or resource “I can today make an immediate start”. accounts. That can make for complications and make it What happened? Let us have a look at the areas where more difficult for Parliament to exert its control over he pledged that immediate start—12 areas where the Supply, which is one of its principal functions. Part 8 Government would surrender or limit their powers: permits the Treasury to issue directions on how Government “the power of the Executive to declare war; the power to request Departments prepare estimates. It provides for the the dissolution of Parliament; the power over recall of Parliament; consolidation of spending by NDPBs and other central the power of the Executive to ratify international treaties…the Government bodies into Supply estimates and departmental power to make key public appointments…the power to restrict resource accounts. parliamentary oversight of our intelligence services; power to choose bishops” Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): Would not and this proposal be more credible if we had the American “judges; power to direct prosecutors in individual criminal cases; system so that all Members who sit in this House also power over the civil service…and the Executive powers to determine had to make financial declarations? That is standard the rules governing entitlement to passports and the granting of practice in Congress and in the Senate. It is very important pardons.”—[Official Report, 3 July 2007; Vol. 462, c. 815.] that this is not just about how Parliament reports itself According to my calculations, we are still waiting for but about how Members report their financial interests. the Government’s proposals on war powers, dissolution, recall, the intelligence services, prosecutors, passports Mr. Straw: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I do not and pardons. Treaties, judges and the civil service are want to follow him down that route. We have to make covered in the Bill. declarations of financial interest anyway.If he is proposing Having set out the 12 priorities for immediate action that we should have to make declarations of wealth, I promised to us by the Prime Minister in his grandiloquent would say that that should perhaps be referred to a phrases, we find that only two—on bishops and quangos— special Committee of the House. The Bill is quite have actually been implemented. Having seen the recent comprehensive, but I think, if he does not mind, that we behaviour of the Secretary of State for Children, Schools would find ourselves slightly diverted if we went down and Families in respect of the Children’s Commissioner, that route. However, I am happy to discuss it with him. we can probably fairly say that it is only one and a The Bill also allows Welsh Ministers to include quarter or one and a half. information relating to the use of resources by designated The Prime Minister went on, in what I am beginning bodies in Wales. to think was a moment of fantasy, to say that he had some big ideas. There were citizens juries—what happened Mr. Dismore: Will the Secretary of State give way? to them? There was the statement of British values, which is the pet project of the Minister of State, the Mr. Straw: No, I am afraid that I must make progress. right hon. Member for North Swindon (Mr. Wills). I The Bill is before us at a time when it is perhaps more understand that a roadshow is about to start to do with important than ever that we make every effort to restore that, but all I can say is that it looks like it will be a very trust in our constitutional settlement and in our political slow road. One by one, the Prime Minister’s initiatives and parliamentary institutions. Building on the process have fallen by the wayside—British day, a national of reform that this Government began in 1997, which motto, citizenship ceremonies for school leavers, rewriting The Guardian newspaper heralded as revolutionary, the the national anthem. It is amazing how extensive and Bill will increase the accountability and legitimacy of far-reaching it all was. 813 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 814 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Straw: When did the Prime Minister talk about We also had an Opposition politician arrested on the rewriting the national anthem? back of grossly exaggerated claims by the Cabinet Office, and a disgraceful and vile campaign against Members Mr. Grieve: I remember that there was discussion, of this House orchestrated from within the Prime and I see that the Minister of State is talking to the Minister’s office by Mr. McBride. I look forward to Secretary of State about it. My distinct recollection is ensuring that the code of conduct on special advisers that there was talk about whether we might need a new means that that never happens again. It is worth national anthem that brought us all together. remembering that that story was leaked to a friendly journalist in an attempt to minimise the damage, but The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael even when the details of the smear campaign became Wills): What is the source? public, the Prime Minister’s first response was not that of the Secretary of State—to say that something had to be done about this awful thing—but to keep his special Mr. Grieve: I shall go away and check, and I will be adviser in post and defend him. I think that that was quite prepared to admit it if I have got it wrong, but something to do with the Prime Minister’s moral compass. that is my recollection. At every turn, therefore, there is a chasm between the Mr. Wills: I do not want to interrupt the flow of the Prime Minister’s words and his actions. We have the hon. and learned Gentleman’s speech, but he must root National Democratic Renewal Council, but I am not it in facts. First, he should give us the source for this sure what it does. Does it just sit and work out new thing about the national anthem. Secondly, as he well headlines? One day the Prime Minister tells us that he knows, it is not a roadshow that we are embarked on in will change the royal line of succession, but that is not relation to a statement of values but properly mediated, in the Bill. He told the BBC that he is going to change deliberative events, to which he was invited. [Interruption.] the voting system, but that is not in the Bill either. Once Opposition Members may laugh, but such events are the headline has been banked, it is left to the Secretary reputable and respected in the academic community of State and Lord Chancellor to try to get him off the and they are supported by all parties except the Conservative hook and kick most of the proposals into the long party. The hon. and learned Gentleman was invited to grass. take part and refused. The events are under way, and he If any of the announcements had been serious— does not want to take part. That is a matter for him, but [Interruption.] Of course I will give way to the Secretary he should not accuse us of not doing something that we of State. promised to do, because we are doing precisely what I have described. Mr. Straw: The whole of this is serious. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State will respond in detail to Mr. Grieve: Yes, the Minister did invite me to take some of the hon. and learned Gentleman’s points, but part. He rang me up and politely asked whether I would let us take, for example, the issue of war powers, which like to participate. I indicated that I did not wish to. He he mentioned. I was going to mention it in my speech, even asked me whether I would want to make a video but as I had taken so many interventions and since it is clip that would be shown before the start of each not in the Bill, I decided not to do so. Just so the House roadshow explaining why people should not participate can be informed—the hon. and learned Gentleman in it. I declined that politely, too. He then wrote me a knows this very well—let me add that there was a rather extraordinary letter—I thought that our conversation serious debate in both Houses about whether provision was private at that time, not that I mind—setting out on war powers, which everybody agrees ought to be with considerable hysteria how dastardly of me it was exercised by this House, should be included in statute or not to wish to participate in the exercise. Be that as it would better be made by resolution. As it happens, I may, I hope that he has an enjoyable time going around personally favoured putting the basic power in statute, on this consultation process. It seems to me that if the although I was in a minority. Others took a different number of his party’s Back Benchers present this afternoon view, including the other place and the Committee of to consider this major piece of constitutional legislation both Houses that examined the issue. It is therefore well is anything to go by, it does not have much mileage in it. known that we will deal with such matters by resolution. That measure is being drafted, and we aim to introduce Meanwhile, confidence in our democracy drains away. it by the end of the year. What is wrong with that? The Prime Minister, who promised that Parliament would be given a say on the calling of a election, chose Mr. Grieve: I do not doubt the Secretary of State’s to cancel one in an interview with Andrew Marr. Then sincerity. If I have been taking his comments in what I he skulked off to a Portuguese anteroom to break his hope is a slightly light-hearted fashion, it is for the manifesto undertaking on the European constitution, deliberate reason that we are a little way into the prime in the vain hope that by signing it when everybody ministership of this Prime Minister, and it looks to me else had left the building, nobody would notice what he as if we are running out of time before the coming was doing. election for most of those extraordinary pledges to be We then had a bizarre announcement, through the implemented. When one looks at the promises that were constitutional novelty of a YouTube video—I wondered made, in very specific terms, one is left with the impression at one stage whether that would be included in the Bill that it was all just window dressing. That reflects very as a constitutional method of communication—that badly on how the Government conduct their business: it because some Members had broken the rules on raises public expectations and they use grandiose phrases, parliamentary allowances, we could restore confidence but the mountain moves and out comes the mouse. by keeping the allowances and abolishing the rules. That is all we have. The mouse may be beautiful and That idea did not last very long. well formed, but a mouse it is nevertheless. 815 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 816 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Straw: May I totally refute what the hon. and to this House appeared to have been tinkered with learned Gentleman says? Any single proposal, particularly under political pressure. I could cite a large number of one that has broad support and that is therefore not the other examples— subject of intense controversy, can be dismissed as prosaic, but the total adds up to something really significant. Mr. Blunkett: Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman The hon. and learned Gentleman cannot have it both would reflect on the enthusiasm that the Opposition ways. After my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister have for deliberate and, in some cases, encouraged leaks made his announcement, we did not introduce legislation from the civil service. and try to bounce it through the House, as we could Mr. Grieve: My impression is that the basic cause of have done within the first 12 months of his Administration. leaks from the civil service has been the breakdown in Instead, we set up a deliberative process which, above trust between civil servants and Ministers about the all, involved consulting the House and the other place. accuracy of what Ministers say. It is apparent if one Not one or two but three separate Select Committees, looks at how the civil service has operated for at least including Joint Select Committees, have considered the 100 years that Ministers took the rap for things that matter, and I pay tribute to everybody in both Houses went wrong in their Departments—something that seems who did so. It is true that some time has elapsed, but the to have vanished almost entirely, as civil servants are proposals in the Bill are better for it, and there is much hung out to dry while Ministers stay in office. That has more widespread agreement. That is the main reason probably had a very deleterious impact on civil service why the Benches on both sides of the House are not morale. packed—people believe that there is consensus across the Houses on the measure. On several occasions, including some under the right hon. Gentleman’s stewardship of the Home Office, civil Mr. Grieve: I thank the Secretary of State. In tribute servants have leaked information that diametrically to him, it seems that he has injected a note of reality challenged utterances by Ministers, who had been putting into the fantasy world that was being manufactured out material that was thoroughly misleading. Indeed, in two years ago. Of course, some of those other measures some cases, ministerial careers have been ended on the may be in the Labour party manifesto for the next back of that phenomenon— election, but that is not to say that that will not also be fantasy. Mr. Blunkett: The hon. Gentleman has really started to dig himself a hole. Can he name one such occurrence I do not want to take up too much of the House’s while I was Home Secretary? time, so in respect in constitutional renewal, I simply make this point: I notice that the long title of the Bill Mr. Grieve: Well now, I have to be careful, because I omits the words “and for connected purposes”. If I admit that my memory may be at fault as to whether were a suspicious individual, I would think that the some of these incidents took place under the right hon. Justice Secretary had done that to prevent hon. Members Gentleman’s stewardship or that of his successor, and from tabling amendments on wider constitutional issues. to that extent I am prepared for him to correct me. I I am sure that he will tell me that I am completely seem to recollect the case of a civil servant based in wrong about that. Perhaps it was thought unnecessary Romania, who provided information about the way in given that, in the words of the constitutional expert which visas were being distributed that directly challenged Robert Hazell, the Bill is more a constitutional reform what was said by Ministers in this House. That was a (miscellaneous provisions) Bill. That is where the whole serious example of Ministers thoroughly misleading the thing has gone off the rails. public about what was going on— I shall highlight the measures that we support. They include the measures that would put the civil service on Mr. Blunkett: The hon. Gentleman is right that that a statutory basis, although I agree with the Joint Committee did happen in early 2004, and the Minister responsible that that would have been better dealt with in a short, resigned, even though the mistake was made by civil stand-alone civil service Bill. We will consider how the servants in the Department and another Department, proposals can be improved, especially in adding a duty not by her personally. He has underlined entirely the to manage taxpayers’ money to the civil service’s core point that I was seeking to make. Ministers do not only values. take the rap, they take it for mistakes made by their own civil servants. Mr. David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside) (Lab): The hon. and learned Gentleman is making an entertaining Mr. Grieve: The right hon. Gentleman is correct to speech, but it is short on the substance of what the say that the Minister resigned, but it took rather a lot of Opposition actually believe in. In regard to the civil doing on the part of Opposition Members—and indeed service and the renewal of commitments in the Bill, are Labour Members—to persuade her to do so. [Interruption.] he and his party definitely committed to the neutrality One of my hon. Friends says from a sedentary position, of the civil service? “Kicking and screaming.” That is what I, too, recall about the incident. Mr. Grieve: Of course we are. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that anxieties over the extent to Mr. Dismore: Earlier, I made an intervention about which the neutrality of the civil service has been eroded nationality discrimination rules within the civil service. over the past 13 years have been a persistent theme in If new clauses were to be introduced, would the this House for those of us participating in debates. That Conservative party support them in principle, bearing has centred on several issues, including what happened in mind that it has adopted that position in relation to in the run-up to the Iraq war and the way in which my many attempts, made through private Members’ dossiers prepared by civil servants for impartial distribution legislation, to deal with the matter? 817 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 818 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Grieve: I see no reason why we would not adopt Mr. Straw: We did not. an approach similar to that which we have taken previously. I have not consider that exact point, and I would need Mr. Grieve: I remember distinctly the Government to look at the hon. Gentleman’s amendments, but he telling us that they would put the Lisbon treaty to the might recall that—this is my recollection—we made a British people. distinction between civil service roles that clearly require a nationality qualification, because they are sufficiently Mr. Wills: It’s your memory. high-ranking or linked to security or defence, and those that do not. That seems to be a sensible way to proceed, Mr. Grieve: I get ever more worried that we are and I look forward to seeing his amendments in due moving into an Orwellian phase. I remember it as a course. distinct election pledge. Again, however, if the Secretary of State would like to write to me explaining why my Dr. Tony Wright: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman suggestion—that that promise was made during the last give way? election—is inaccurate, I will be only too happy to read the letter. Mr. Grieve: I ought to make some progress, but I shall give way once more before moving on. We support the repeal of restrictions on protests around Parliament. The right to protest is a fundamental Dr. Wright: I seek some clarity about the theme part of our democracy, but that right needs to be raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, balanced against the need to ensure that hon. Members, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett). The hon. and learned Gentleman parliamentary staff, and above all the public, have access will know that there is much alarm in Whitehall about to this place. It is right, therefore, that the Bill ensures some of the utterances from Conservative Front-Bench that protests can be regulated. Members about their intentions for the civil service. In particular, it is believed that people are being told that Mr. Straw rose— business people will be imported, through political appointments, to give orders to civil servants. Will he Mr. Grieve: We are going back to the treaty. I am say categorically that that is not the case? delighted to give way.

Mr. Grieve: That is complete rubbish. The hon. Mr. Straw: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman should be wary about listening to all the Gentleman, because I did not think that my memory copy churned out by propaganda departments—in his was playing tricks. We said in the manifesto—[HON. own party, I suspect. His suggestion is ludicrous. In MEMBERS: “Here we go!”] Well, I am reading it, in the view of my earlier answer about the politicisation of the interests of greater accuracy. After stating what the civil service, I hope that our proposals for the civil constitutional treaty will ensure, the manifesto reads: service will include ensuring its impartiality. Putting it “We will put it to the British people in a referendum and under political direction or outside control clearly cannot campaign…for a ‘Yes’ vote”. achieve that. The Conservative party is trying to say otherwise, but On transparency, the Bill proposes only to reform there is a world of difference between that constitutional supply estimates. We think that there needs to be a treaty, which hit the dust, and the Lisbon treaty. That fundamental shift in the transparency of Government, latter is simply an amending treaty to existing treaties, and at our party conference we outlined a number of and no different in character from Maastricht or its proposals to increase openness, including publishing predecessors, which the Opposition never put to the online the salaries of the 35,000 most senior civil servants, British people when they were in power. job descriptions for quangos, and all central Government expenditure over £25,000. We would like the Bill to Mr. Grieve: I am sorry, but that piece of casuistry include such measures, and will return to them in takes some beating—[Interruption.] It was casuistry! Committee. First, I remember the Government telling us, when We support measures to require the consent of those utterances were made, that the constitutional Parliament before the ratification of treaties, but I am treaty was no more than another Maastricht. In fact, as concerned about provisions in the Bill that would allow the Secretary of State well knows, the Lisbon treaty is, the Government to avoid the new scrutiny requirements in almost all its particulars, identical to the constitutional in undefined, exceptional circumstances. We will need treaty abandoned after the French referendum. For some clarification of what those exceptional circumstances, those reasons, the public know very well that they were which are so neatly tucked into the Bill, amount to. It is given a promise and that it was reneged upon. That troubling that the Bill does not cover treaties that do highlights the difficulty with such legislation. How can not require formal ratification, other forms of international people have any confidence that procedures of any sort agreements such as memorandums of understanding, will not be abused by Ministers who break fundamental or even such things as prisoner transfer agreements. pledges that appear to be made in manifestos? Although there might be arguments for that, I hope that in Committee we have an opportunity to consider carefully Mr. Drew: For clarity, will the hon. and learned where the boundaries are drawn. Otherwise there might Gentleman commit his Front-Bench colleagues to a be much disappointment that many things that this referendum on the Lisbon treaty? House ought to be considering are not being considered. The Government were elected on a false prospectus: Mr. Grieve: We have made it absolutely clear that if they promised to put the Lisbon treaty to the British there is an opportunity to have a referendum on the people. Lisbon treaty before ratification, we will do it. The 819 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 820 Governance Bill Governance Bill Government promised to have a referendum on the David Howarth: Yes it does. Lisbon treaty not after, but before ratification. I hope very much that we can honour the pledge that the Mr. Grieve: Well, Parliament can legislate in a day; Government will have broken. the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to pick me up on We support measures to remove the Prime Minister that. How many times have we legislated in a day, and from the process of appointing judges, and magistrates always regretted it bitterly afterwards? We have usually from the very complex processes of the Judicial regretted it most bitterly when we have all agreed on Appointments Commission. That seems to be a step in something. I still remember a dreadful piece of legislation the right direction. I also say to the Secretary of State that we passed after the Omagh bombing; fortunately I that I look forward to the review of the operation of the was able to get leave of absence to disappear and not commission, and whether a simplified process could be support my party. That was a dreadful piece of legislation, provided. I listened very carefully to what he had to say but everybody signed up to it and it went through in one about that. As I think he knows, he will have our day. However, wisdom suggests that we should not interest and co-operation—in so far as we can clearly legislate in a day. maintain judicial independence—if there are ways of Reality also says that were we to be elected to government, improving the existing system. we would have considerable problems in respect of our We support measures to reform the National Audit representation in the House of Lords, as would other Office and to amend Government accounts. However, parties, because of the age profile of our party’s membership with the Prime Minister’s once golden rules not just and because of the paucity of appointments that have broken but shattered, surely the real problem lies not in been made available to us over recent years. Those are disjunctions between departmental expenditure limits factors that we cannot ignore. For those reasons we and resource accounts, but goes much deeper; it is one would have to make the House of Lords operate. I hope of fiscal credibility.That is why we propose an independent that that answers the question asked by the right hon. office of budgetary oversight to oversee compliance in Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith). connection with the Government’s economic promises. Then we come to the House of Lords. Just to make Mr. Straw: Let me press the hon. and learned Gentleman our position clear—yet again—the Conservative party on the right hon. Gentleman’s point. All three parties supports the creation of a predominantly elected House are signed up to reform of the House of Lords, to put it of Lords. But there is nothing about that in the Bill. It on a wholly or mainly elected basis. The hon. and contains two measures that will fundamentally change learned Gentleman just repeated that pledge. Will it be the nature of the House of Lords, without making it a pledge that any future Conservative Administration one ounce more democratic. First, the Justice Secretary would implement in their first term, bearing in mind wants to remove the remaining hereditary peers. The that the legislation would be pretty straightforward? Government agreed to the retention of the hereditaries [HON.MEMBERS: “You’re on your fourth.”] What we as a mark of their good faith—good faith creeps into have achieved since February 2007 is a clear consensus consideration of the Bill quite a lot—that further reform and lots of complicated detail, which were not there to put the House of Lords on a democratic footing before. Now that the hon. and learned Gentleman has would follow. It was said at the time that if those the template, will he implement it? hereditary peers went, real reform would never happen— and it has not. As the late Member for Livingston, Mr. Grieve: We have made our commitment and Robin Cook, said, all that has been achieved so far is to made it quite clear. The order in which we decide to replace a 15th-century principle of hereditary peers prioritise legislation if we win an election is a matter for with an 18th-century principle of patronage. my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, The Justice Secretary has made democratic reform of particularly in view of the economic mess that we are the House of Lords a fourth-term issue—something going to inherit. Yet again, the Secretary of State is else for Labour’s manifesto. He promises a Bill on the descending into a series of nitpicking issues— House of Lords, which he says is imminent, so why is he trying to remove the remaining hereditaries in today’s Bill, before that Bill is published? Mr. Straw indicated dissent.

Sir Alan Beith: I wonder whether the hon. and learned Mr. Grieve: If I may say so, it is nitpicking, particularly Gentleman could clarify the confusing Conservative coming from the Secretary of State, given the Government’s position on that point. There are increasing indications consistent pledge over a long period to get rid of the that if there was a Conservative Government, people existing House of Lords and complete its reform, and would be appointed to the House of Lords so that they their not having completed it, or even started its completion. could become Ministers, albeit perhaps temporarily, as I am prepared to take lessons from some quarters, but suggested by the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie). on this issue I am not prepared to take them from the Why is that step being resorted to if the Conservatives’ Secretary of State. clear intention is to legislate immediately on reform of Of course the remaining hereditaries are an anomaly, the House of Lords? I suspect that it is not their and of course they are undemocratic. I accept all that, intention. but they are no less democratic than the appointees who will replace them. Furthermore, why are there measures Mr. Grieve: Taking the cue from the Secretary of in the Bill to allow peers to resign or retire? Are those State, on a point that I thought was one of his more measures intended for the reformed House or are they valid ones, let me say to the right hon. Gentleman that supposed to cover the transitional House, or are they Parliament does not legislate in a day. for the halfway house that we have at the moment? 821 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 822 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Grieve] Yet again the Justice Secretary, who as I recollect went from arch-Blairite to the present Prime Minister’s Remove the anomaly—that is, the hereditaries—and campaign manager, finds that the tectonic plates are the prospect of reform will recede. Only last year, the shifting, when suddenly such proposals come up. I Prime Minister said that there would be no by-elections suspect that whichever way he looks is uncomfortable: among hereditary peers during the transition to the one way lies Foy in the county of Herefordshire and the fully reformed second Chamber, but that transition has other way Hartlepool in the county of Durham. So let not yet begun. Only last year, he said that he would me make it easier for him. We will table an amendment avoid gratuitously cutting the Conservative party’s to give effect to the Government’s policy on the issue. I representation in the House of Lords, but now that look forward to the Secretary of State, and perhaps stance is being reversed. As I have explained, although even the Minister of State, joining us in the Lobby on Conservatives are only the third largest grouping in the that. House of Lords, more hereditaries are Conservative than belong to any other party. In his White Paper last year, the Justice Secretary proposed a cooling-off period of five years between The Prime Minister’s naked partisanship in those someone ceasing their membership of the second Chamber utterances is laid bare for everyone to see. The proposals and their being eligible for election to the House of are not about making the upper House more democratic Commons. That would prevent membership of the or more representative, but about shifting the party second Chamber from being used as an immediate balance still further in favour of the governing party. launch pad for a career as an MP. We support the Frankly, that is a pretty dangerous and unwelcome Justice Secretary’s policy on that, although his Cabinet precedent, but one that ties in with the entire way in colleagues do not seem to be very enthusiastic. which the Prime Minister has treated Opposition parties over the House of Lords since he took office. There is much in the Bill that we can support, but This is a question of trust. The Secretary of State’s what we have is trimmings and not very much meat. predecessor Lord Irvine made a promise—I remind him What is missing is genuine constitutional reform and of this, as he referred to Lord Salisbury and all those the transfer of power to the people, so let me make great moments in the first Parliament after 1997. What some suggestions of what the Justice Secretary should did Lord Irvine say? He talked about add to the Bill. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has laid out a series of proposals that would “a compromise…between Privy Councillors on Privy Council terms and binding in honour on all those who have come to give it really change the relationship between citizen and state. their assent.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 30 March 1999; If the Justice Secretary is serious, he will follow our lead Vol. 599, c. 207.] and introduce citizens’ initiatives and a right for local One of the people who participated in that assenting residents to veto excessive council tax rises, allow 100,000 process, as it were, was the Secretary of State for Justice. voters to demand a debate in this place on any issue, let He was one of the Privy Counsellors who gave his 1 million citizens table legislation in Parliament, and assent to that compromise, and so was the Prime Minister. introduce a public reading stage for Bills. The Prime Minister has broken his promise on the The Justice Secretary could follow our lead and let Lisbon treaty and now I think that he proposes to break local communities elect police commissioners or give another promise. I therefore ask the Secretary of State voters the right to recall their MP where serious misconduct again: why should we see the proposals as a way of has taken place, regardless of any penalty imposed in restoring public trust in the political system? I want the House. If he really wants to improve the audit of proper reform, but the relevant clauses make this less Government accounts, he might like to start by publishing likely, not more likely. For that reason, we will oppose every item of Government spending over £25,000. He the measure to prevent hereditary peers from being would be amazed at the number of people who would elected. spend hours trawling through those accounts to supply I do not want to see life peers in this House either. their MPs with ammunition with which to ask questions. The Secretary of State is right that under the Peerage And if he is serious about public engagement, will he Act 1963, peers who swiftly choose to forgo a hereditary follow our lead and ensure that any treaty to increase peerage should be free to stand for election to this the powers of the European Union will be subject to House, just as it is right that peers who were removed in that referendum? 1999 should now be free to seek election here. If Parliament The British public have had plenty of broken promises allows the House of Lords to expel Members for from this Government. They certainly want reform. misconduct, they too should be free to argue their case The evidence from opinion polling shows that this place in public and, indeed, stand for election to this House, is held in very poor estimation generally, and that there because their peerages will effectively have been removed. is a deep desire to see our legislature function properly However, the position is very different for those who and for confidence in the way in which government is have chosen to accept a life peerage in the full understanding conducted to be restored. We will give the Bill its that they will forgo the opportunity of standing for, or Second Reading, but if the Secretary of State thinks for that matter returning to, the House of Commons. In that these measures alone will restore that trust, I have a reformed House of Lords, that would lead to that to say to him that he is deluded. That is not something House becoming a stepping stone to a career as an that I would ever say of him, however, because I think MP—and in an unreformed House, it would put the that he knows the reality very well. He knows that, at Prime Minister in charge of that stepping stone and the moment, our political system is broken up, and that vastly increase his patronage. That step would turn the this Bill does not begin to scratch the surface of the House of Lords into the departure lounge for special change required—because I am afraid that the Prime advisers. Minister will not let him do that. 823 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 824 Governance Bill Governance Bill 6.10 pm we thought that we could do things in secret. The introduction of the Act has had a transforming effect Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): I was interested on our whole political culture, and, indeed, on the way to hear my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State we do business in this House. Some might say, “That is begin his speech by telling us that Her Majesty was not a very good thing; look at the consequences.” Had pleased to allow the House to consider the prerogative we had such legislation in place, however, the trouble powers, as it will do in parts of the Bill. I was interested, that we are now in would never have happened. If we too, to see that just a few days ago, the Government had had the complete transparency over our expenses issued a paper called “Review of the executive royal that freedom of information brings, and if we had known prerogative powers: final report”. The Select Committee that we had to submit our expenses to the scrutiny of that I chair asked for that report in 2004, and it is good our electors and everyone else, the difficulties and abuses at last to have a comprehensive account of what we that we have seen would not have taken place. think those prerogative powers are. It gives us an agenda for much work. At the end of that interesting paper, we In area after area, we can see how these important find this sentence: changes have altered the way in which government is organised in this country, and the way in which we do “Our constitution has developed organically over many centuries politics. There will be a lasting imprint from this period. and change should not be proposed for change’s sake.” People will look back on it as a moment of significant That sentiment is often echoed throughout our political constitutional change. The implications of the Human tradition across the House, but we have only to say it to Rights Act 1998, for example, are transforming—so ask ourselves whether it is true. transforming, in fact, that the Opposition would like us It is certainly true that, for the past three centuries or to have another one. Indeed, perhaps the Government so, we have not had what we might call a great constitutional would, too. moment. We have not had a moment when we have had The most remarkable thing about all this constitutional to consider what kind of system of government we reform is how it has become accepted and settled—even would like. We have been spared the kind of revolutionary provisions that were strongly contested at the time. I moment, or moment of foreign occupation, that necessitates remember , when he was Prime Minister, constitutional moments in which that process has to predicting that the House would come down if we take place. So, as is often observed, we have more or less moved in the direction of serious devolution. It was a muddled along, making it up as we go along. We have political necessity, however; the system had to respond taken what is sometimes called a back-of-an-envelope to the pressures, particularly from Scotland. This has approach to constitutional matters. changed the way in which we do politics. I am not sure, however, that the process has been It is remarkable that no one now seriously wants to quite as organic as that sentence in the report suggests. undo what has been done. No one is queuing up to say, We have had some pretty inorganic moments, too. I do “Let’s sweep away the Freedom of Information Act”, not think that the vote to get suffrage for working men “Let’s sweep away devolution”, or “Let’s sweep away was an organic moment. That involved a pretty titanic the independence of our national statistics.” All these struggle against the people who said that our constitutional things are now an accepted part of our political system would collapse if we went down that route. I do arrangements, and they are all for the good. Not even not think that the struggle to extend the franchise to the Conservative party, in its more esoteric moments, women was an organic moment, given that people said has suggested that any of these measures should be that our constitutional system would collapse if we did unravelled. We should therefore at least mark the fact anything so dangerous. Nor do I think that the struggle that, although the Bill itself might not be momentous against the House of Lords to assert the supremacy of or represent our great constitutional moment, it forms this House at the beginning of the 20th century was an part of a significant constitutional journey over the organic moment. That involved a pretty vigorous past 12 years. constitutional struggle to assert a new primacy in our political system. So we should not get too carried away Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): Yet again, my with the idea of an untroubled organic process. There hon. Friend is making an intelligent, interesting speech, are moments when we have to do things that change the and everything that he says is absolutely right. However, balance of the system, and that usually requires significant the key development in recent decades—not just under political action. this Labour Government—has been an intensification I am not going to claim for an instant that this Bill of power at the centre, relative to the legislature. That is represents such a moment. Seen from a broader perspective what is wrong with our politics, and that is what we have and taken in the round, however, the measures that the to change. The Bill ought to be addressing that, and I Government have taken since 1997 represent an extremely hope that he will say something about it. important constitutional moment. I am not going to recite them—my right hon. Friend mentioned most of Dr. Wright: My hon. Friend tempts me to go wider them—but there is no doubt that, over this period, than I am already going, and I think that I am going something very important has happened to our established quite wide enough. Some little plans are being hatched constitutional arrangements. I do not think that that to do something else about the balance between Parliament has been part of a grand plan, or that there has necessarily and the Executive, however, and I hope to be able to say been a consistent sense of direction, but there have been more about them in the near future. some important achievements. Against that background, I want to extend a particular The reason we are having all the troubles with our welcome for what I take to be the central part of the expenses at the moment is that we introduced a Freedom Bill. It is an issue that I have been engaged with for as of Information Act. As long as we had no such provision, long as I can remember—probably too long—which is 825 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 826 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Dr. Tony Wright] prerogative power was involved; I recall being much taken by the fact that I had to write to the Palace to get to try to put the civil service on a statutory basis. The permission to introduce a ten-minute Bill on fixed-term Committee that I chair produced its own Bill to do so in Parliaments. Now, however, it is becoming accepted 2004. I think that was the first time in the modern that it is right to move in the direction of having period that a Select Committee has produced its own fixed-term Parliaments. It is increasingly viewed as absurd Bill. We did so because we had become frustrated by that nearly every other Parliament operates to some our inability to make progress on the issue. It was fixed cycle, but our Parliament does not. something that had been much promised, but never delivered. The argument that we need to examine our electoral system is being heard with greater force now—and not Everyone had accepted the arguments for putting the necessarily for the old reasons. Arguments about strict civil service on a statutory basis. They grew out of proportionality or the mathematics of voting are less Northcote-Trevelyan and it was viewed as an anomaly relevant; the important thing now is that the electorate that this had not already happened. Northcote-Trevelyan has changed. The first-past-the-post system, with all its had suggested that we needed only a few clauses to do rough edges, did not matter very much when, on the it, but those few clauses never seemed to be put in place. whole, there were defined blocks in the electorate that I read my way through all the debates on the issue under delivered their votes for parties and took their turn now the last Conservative Government, when the old Treasury and again. The electorate is not like that now; it is far and Civil Service Committee used to recommend that more differentiated and variegated. Governments may this should be done. The argument then was, “Well, we be elected now on the basis of a very small minority of think this may be a good idea in principle, but we have the vote and yet enjoy all the power that is accorded to worries about doing it.” Some of those worries were Governments in this country. At some point, we have very proper ones: it was said that the change should not simply got to address that issue because when our be done in a way that would become a source of circumstances change, we have to revisit our arrangements. controversy between the parties and that it should be done only if political consensus could be gained. It was Beyond all that, I hear a developing argument these in the same spirit that the civil service itself approached days that asks whether we need to revisit some of the these issues. It wanted this done, but it wanted an fundamentals of our governing arrangements. There is assurance that it would be done in a spirit of political far more interest now in whether we should begin to consensus. separate out more clearly the Executive functions from I take some pleasure in the fact that, after all this the legislative ones. It was interesting to see recently that time, we have now reached a point where this can safely a former Cabinet Secretary, Lord Turnbull, had written be done for the civil service. We can safely do it on the an article in the Financial Times advocating the separation basis of genuine consensus across the parties. What we of powers as the only way he thought we could get the are doing is something that everyone understands we skills that we needed into government and also provide ought to do, which is to try to define what we think the the sort of parliamentary scrutiny that was needed. The core values of our civil service are and to put them into fusion of power in our system is damaging on the one statute, as we have done with other things. Secondly, we side, but also damaging on the other side. need to put into statute the core institutional machinery It is interesting to see that even Prime Ministers necessary to ensure that those values are delivered. That nowadays want to push out the boundaries by bringing is the key point about the Civil Service Commission. more people in from outside. We have heard in exchanges This may not seem to be an exciting moment—indeed, this afternoon about proposals to bring people into it may seem a prosaic moment in the scheme of things—but government who may not have to be members of either it is constitutionally an extremely important moment. I House of Parliament or even to be elected. It is suggested very much want this Government to have this reform as that such people can come and be Ministers for a while. one item on the long list of actions they have taken to It may be a good idea. The Committee I chair is looking change the operation of government in this country. at some of these proposals at the moment, but if we go With a bit of luck and a fair wind, they will achieve down that route, we have to think it through. If we are that. That is my main welcome for the Bill. changing the nature of the Executive, we may want to Let me share another rather general thought, which change the nature of Parliament, including its scrutiny is that I do not know whether we are approaching a function. The principle should be that strong Government, time that could be described as a serious constitutional which is what we all say we have had in this country—and moment—one in which we want to examine in a more in many respects, we have—has to be matched by strong fundamental way how we are governed—but I doubt accountability, but we have not seen that. whether we can go on for ever simply making it up as we My conclusion from all this is that interesting discussion go along. I shall not resort to the cliché that every and argument is going on about the very nature of our disaster is an opportunity, but there is perhaps a moment system of government. My view is that we need some that arises out of the catastrophe that has overwhelmed mechanism to carry all this forward. When the Government this institution of Parliament, which has got people to came to power in 1997, instead of simply working begin to think, talk and discuss how they want to be through our shopping list of reforms, we should have governed—whether they are governed in a satisfactory had something like a constitutional commission, which way and whether it can be improved. Such a discussion could have looked at all the parts of the argument in is happening on a number of fronts. the round, ensuring that one bit was consistent with Shortly after I entered the House, I remember trying another, while also providing a reservoir of expertise on to introduce a Bill on fixed-term Parliaments, but I constitutional matters. It could even have engaged the could not get a hearing for that proposition. Another public—an issue I feel even more strongly about now. 827 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 828 Governance Bill Governance Bill It is no good simply having discussions or putting The serious question is, are we allowing a new system forward ideas about how the system could change; if we of government to develop out of the constitutional are approaching a constitutional moment, we must moment in which we find ourselves? Does the system have a mechanism to carry it forward that engages the that we are allowing constitute a kind of rule by the public, too. I would favour something like a democracy famous? The new system needs a name, and were we commission. I know that we are busy abolishing every to give it a name it would be not a democracy but a body in sight at the moment, but we need a place in our doxocracy: the rule of celebrity. A new and urgent system—other countries have it—where we can think constitutional question about which the Bill does nothing about the nature of our governing arrangements on a is what we should do about that form of politics. One continuing basis. If we find ourselves arriving at a view is that we should simply go with the flow, give in to moment when we will have to make some big constitutional the celebrity politics that is developing and institutionalise choices, we would then have some means of doing so. its elements, such as primaries; but I believe that that will not end well. The sheer superficiality of celebrity 6.19 pm politics will lead in the end not to greater engagement as its proposers hope, but to disappointment and to even David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): I agree with the more cynicism. vast majority of what the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) has just said—except for one thing. Mr. Drew: I am sure that, like me, the hon. Gentleman I think that we are already in a constitutional moment regularly visits schools, and that, like me, he is pleasantly and that the current crisis is very serious, requiring a surprised at how interested young people are in politics—not better reaction now than this Bill. I am afraid that it is party politics, perhaps, but issue-based politics. What inadequate to the present circumstances. There is nothing they always tell me is that they have a thirst for knowledge: in it specifically bad or obnoxious, but nearly all of it they want to know more about what we do in Parliament, needs improvement—some of it radically. What is really and about what Government do. Does the hon. Gentleman wrong with the Bill, however, is what it does not do and agree that that is where we fail absolutely in this country? its lack of ambition, given the size of the problem. As We have not engaged in real citizenship education at all. the hon. Member for Cannock Chase pointed out, it does nothing to change the system of election to the House of Commons, which is not just corrupt and David Howarth: I do agree, but that is a consequence unfair but, as the hon. Gentleman began to explain, of the great boundary that we have developed between politically disastrous. It fails to get rid of the undemocratic people in politics and people not in politics. I believe absurdity of a wholly unelected second Chamber—a that the position will become worse if we follow the House of patronage—and, as the hon. Member for celebrity politics route, along with the assumption that Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins) said in an intervention, being in politics means having to be a different kind of it fails to do anything about the extreme centralisation person from everyone else. of power in this country, which still remains after the The hon. Member for Cannock Chase mentioned the devolution settlement. It fails to do anything to prevent expenses crisis. I think that we need to mention it, but big money control of our politics, and it even fails to one of the aspects of it that strike me as dangerous is remove the possibility of political interference in the that, just as celebrities in show business are expected to criminal justice system. have some kind of physical perfection, political leaders There is a real crisis in British politics, but although are now increasingly expected to have moral perfection, all of us in the House know about it on a personal level, and that is simply impossible. We are not gods; we are but we do very little about it. It is a crisis of confidence only people. In both forms of celebrity, we have developed in politics that threatens the cultural basis of democracy a form of airbrushing. Photographs of celebrities are itself. Extremist parties are attracting support, and cynicism airbrushed, and before freedom of information we about politics and the people in politics is rife. I believe airbrushed what we were doing here. Exposure of that that confidence in Members of the House of Commons has, I believe, been fundamentally damaging. The alternative is now down to 14 per cent. The media are the only real approach is to reject the whole idea rather than going political power in the land, but the media’s own commercial along with it, and to aim to tear down the barrier that I difficulties mean that they use that power for increasingly see developing between politics and people outside politics. shallow populist ends. That is a difficult route, however, because it is one that the media would automatically oppose. Over the past few weeks, I have been wondering whether the position is even worse than that. We live in a society that is obsessed with celebrity, and what we Mr. Straw: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s now see is the growth of an expectation that politics is, interesting speech carefully. I do not think that he or should become, a kind of celebrity activity. We are meant that the exposure of expenses itself had been seeing celebrity candidates for public office, not only in damaging. It is what has been exposed that has been the United States but here. We are seeing TV celebrities damaging. I share, as I am sure he does, the view of my elevated to ministerial office and places in the House of hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) Lords. We are seeing political innovations, proposed or that, although this has been a very difficult period, we already in place, which, while they may appear superficially could not go on as we were. attractive, are in danger of turning into concessions to celebrity politics. Primaries, I believe, involve that danger; David Howarth: I thank the Secretary of State for leaders’ debates involve that danger; and elected mayors correcting me. What I meant was that we had been involve that danger—although I should perhaps add airbrushing the situation and that that had been exposed, that the newly elected mayor of Bedford won his place quite rightly. We should not have been airbrushing it without being a celebrity. along the way. 829 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 830 Governance Bill Governance Bill [David Howarth] Mr. Straw: Does the hon. Gentleman think that the Irish system of proportional representation has produced What we need to do is think about how to persuade better government—better economic management and more people to participate in politics in order to break less corruption—than in the United Kingdom? down the barrier—not just in the sense of having their views heard, although that is very important, but in the David Howarth: Until very recently it has certainly full sense of having responsibility for decisions and produced better economic management. As for the taking part in them. That means a decentralisation of recent catastrophes, as someone once said, it is not a power far more radical than what we have taken on so good idea to decide precedence between a louse and far. It also means putting barriers in the way of those a flea. who wish to control politics through money, which is incompatible with a democracy in which many people Mr. Straw: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? take part on an equal basis; and yes, it does mean representative bodies that reflect the political views of David Howarth: I do not think it is a good idea to the people who are represented. The Bill does not discuss this in detail now as the jury is still out. address that either. [Interruption.] Yes, the Speaker of the Dail is probably The hon. Member for Cannock Chase was right to not the best person to talk about in these circumstances. mention electoral reform, which is central to change in It is noteworthy that in the Bill the Government have politics and, in particular, to the changing relationship completely ignored all the problems to which I refer and between people in politics and people outside politics. A fail to engage in the debate. The Government’s own House of Commons that simply does not reflect the proposals on reform of the electoral system of the political views of the population will never command Commons are mysteriously absent from the Bill. There much respect. We have involved ourselves in the idea was a proposal, which the Secretary of State has discussed, that the only purpose of a general election is to choose a for the possibility of recall of existing Members of Government. According to current doctrine, a general Parliament—a proposal that the Government stole from election is not about reflecting the political views of the us. That proposal is not in the Bill. The Secretary of public. The trouble with that view is that it loses all State has explained that it is very difficult to think about credibility when the winning party wins barely over a and that it will take some time. I do not think it is third of the votes. When the supporters of the Government particularly difficult, however, and I believe we can get a are outnumbered by nearly two to one, it is not surprising move on with it if there is sufficient will and open that the Government are unpopular from the day on discussion among the parties. which they take office, remain unpopular after that, and The Prime Minister recently put forward the proposal are seen by the population as being alien to their own to hold a referendum in the next Parliament on moving political views. We have to move away from the present to the alternative vote system, but that too is not in the system. Bill. The AV system is not a wholly proportional one. It It is said that first past the post at least allows us to can produce some rather eccentric results, but at least it get rid of the rascals, but there is a fundamental problem is a preferential system, so from my party’s point of with that. It allows us to get rid of an individual rascal, view it is arguably a step in the right direction. The but only by voting for a party with which we may question the Government must answer is why that is not fundamentally disagree. The cry “Throw the rascals in the Bill. It is not a complicated system for them to out”therefore cannot work simultaneously for individuals design. I just put this thought to the Government: if and for parties. The system fails because it is trying to provision in this Bill for a referendum in, let us say, do too much at once. autumn 2010 were to pass into law, it would be very We also need to get rid of the idea of safe seats, difficult indeed for an incoming Government of any because it is safe seats that lead us down the path to other party to repeal it in time to stop it happening, so iniquity. We need competition, but we need a system why do the Government not include such provision now that allows competition and allows the number of safe in this Bill? seats to be reduced, but does not allow us to give up the The position in terms of the House of Lords is idea of the proportionality of the entire electoral system similar. If the Secretary of State is right—which I think to public views. There is such a system: the single he is—that Members in all parts of the House accept transferable vote multi-Member seat system. It puts that we should move to a predominantly, or, as we power in the hands of voters, not party machines. would prefer, a wholly, elected Chamber, why do we Interestingly, in Ireland 40 per cent. of Teachda Dalas have to wait until the general election to make a start on who lose their seats lose them not to members of other that? The Secretary of State says we need all parties to parties but to members of their own party. The whole put that proposal in their manifesto as that is needed to point of that system is that it is possible to throw out overwhelm, in some kind of argumentative way, the individual rascals while retaining general proportionality obstruction of those in the other place who do not wish and support for parties. there to be any change. I cannot see how that is so. They Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): Is the hon. already know the positions of the parties. They all Gentleman suggesting that there should not be a know what will happen at the next election. It is inevitable constituency element to the role of a Member of that there will be the result that the Secretary of State Parliament? talks about, so what is the point in waiting? Why do we not now try—we might not succeed—to include in this David Howarth: The STV system retains the constituency Bill a move to a more democratic, or a wholly democratic, element; it just has larger constituencies. They would be House of Lords, which an incoming Government from about the same size as American congressional districts, another party would find very difficult to repeal? We or perhaps even a little smaller. have heard, however, remarks from Conservative Members 831 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 832 Governance Bill Governance Bill that imply a certain amount of delay. I think we should whole process. Cannot the Government simply reverse be acting now, in this Bill, to make sure that such delay their control-freak stance—which they revealed yet again is not effective. last week—on the internal governance of local authorities which forces them to choose between a limited range of Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): The hon. Gentleman unsuitable Whitehall-based Government structures? is ranging widely on the omissions from the Bill. Does The draft Bill included extensive provisions on removing he agree that another omission is the failure to overcome the power of the Attorney-General to control decisions the lack of fairness shown to British citizens who vote about particular cases—about whether a particular person when they happen to be living, either temporarily or should be prosecuted or not. In my view, it made permanently, overseas? We are now one of only four unacceptable exceptions to that idea by talking about a countries in the whole European Union that have restrictive national security exemption, but even this limited concession rights that disfranchise millions of our citizens overseas. has now disappeared entirely from the Bill before the Should not those people be taken care of in this House tonight. constitutional reform Bill? The Secretary of State has not really explained what has happened. The current situation is entirely unacceptable, David Howarth: I would not argue as broadly as the and I notice that the Parliamentary Assembly of the hon. Gentleman does, and this might not be the right Council of Europe is now of a similar view. It is Bill in which to address that issue, but I think there is a unacceptable for a Government Minister—a politician—to problem, especially in terms of British citizens who have the power to undermine the prosecution of, or work for international organisations, who seem to be even to decide to prosecute, individuals in particular discriminated against in an unfortunate way. cases. We all know about the controversy regarding the BAE Systems case and so on, but I do not want to Mr. Wills: I wish to pick up on a couple of specific discuss individual cases; I just want to talk about the points. We are well aware that there is a specific problem principle of whether a Minister should have that sort of for British citizens who work for international organisations. power. The hon. Member for Cannock Chase mentioned We are looking at it, and we hope to be able to make the separation of powers, and this seems to me the most some significant progress. It is quite complicated, however, obvious instance where the principle of the separation not least because given the vast number of such of powers is being violated. Such decisions should be organisations, there are issues about whether they should exclusively for professional prosecutors. all be included. I accept that there is an issue, however, and we are considering it. Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman raises an important Turning to the point made by the hon. Member for issue, which I have always seen as one of fine judgment Ludlow (Mr. Dunne), he well knows that the House has and balance. We asked both Houses to establish a Joint regularly looked at the voting restrictions placed on Committee on this Bill—that was in addition to the British citizens who choose to live overseas. Of course specific investigations being carried out by the Select most of them are able to vote in this country, but if they Committee on Justice, the Public Administration Committee stay outside the country for longer than a specified and others. The Joint Committee on the Draft time, restrictions apply, as they do elsewhere as well. Constitutional Renewal Bill, which involved both Houses The hon. Gentleman therefore has not quite got that and all parties, concluded that the legal and political right, and I shall write to him to correct his role should be retained for the Attorney-General. It misunderstanding. also said: “Given our conclusions in Chapter 3, we question whether David Howarth: I thank the Minister for that intervention, there is a need for legislation in respect of the Attorney.” and especially for his initial comments, which amount I accept that we must keep this matter under review, but to considerable progress on an important issue. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will at least accept that Let me make one final remark on the House of the reason why what was included in the original draft Lords. I would not want an opportunity for real progress Bill is not included in this Bill is that we accepted a to be thrown away because the Secretary of State is recommendation from the Joint Committee. inherently conservative and the Conservative party is hesitant and wants to impose a first-past-the-post electoral David Howarth: The Joint Committee was far from system on any future elected House of Lords. That unanimous on that point, and the Justice Committee would be a disaster given that we could be making real report clearly went the other way. progress. There is an enormous amount to do in terms of the Mr. Tyrie: As a matter of fact, what the hon. Gentleman centralisation of power, but for now will the Government said is a big understatement. The Joint Committee had not at least commit to some small concessions? One to produce a minority report, making it clear that a thing they could do is implement the original intention sizeable proportion of its members agreed with the of the Sustainable Communities Act 2007, which was reports produced both by the Select Committee on that local government would be able to require central Constitutional Affairs and the Justice Committee. They Government to declare what central Government spend both concluded that the current arrangements for the in a local area so that negotiations can then take place Attorney-General, whereby he has both a political and on what should be done with that money. I gather that a prosecuting role, are unsustainable. what is currently happening is that central Government interpret that Act as meaning only that central Government David Howarth: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s tell local government what local government are already intervention, because that is precisely what has happened. spending, which of course completely undermines the I do not think we should give way to a Joint Committee 833 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 834 Governance Bill Governance Bill [David Howarth] negative procedure, in this House. That would at least ensure that a vote took place in this House, even if a report that is plainly more reactionary than the centre debate did not. of gravity of opinion in this House. It is possible to The Bill is very disappointing on prerogative powers. design arrangements so that there is a supervising Minister The document that the Government issued last week is who has some say in overall policy on prosecution, but possibly the most complacent that I have ever seen the idea that individual cases can be influenced by come out of government. Basically, it lists the prerogative Ministers strikes me as being beyond the pale. powers that are known to exist and then says, “Apart Let us consider the civil service aspects of the Bill, on from one or two that the Government have already which, like the Conservatives’ spokesperson and the covered, there is nothing wrong with the present system hon. Member for Cannock Chase, I welcome the basic and it is a very good idea that Ministers should have all principle. There is, however, a minimalist feel to the way these powers.” It simply makes a mockery of the Prime in which the idea of the “civil service Act” is being Minister’s promise to entrust implemented in the Bill. What has happened to the idea, “more power to Parliament and the British people.”—[Official mentioned earlier in the debate, that special advisers Report, 3 July 2007; Vol. 462, c. 815.] should not be able to exercise Executive power and Like the Secretary of State, I would have much more instruct civil servants? The Secretary of State says that strongly preferred to see something concrete about war there might be exceptions to that—I cannot think of powers in the Bill, rather than merely a proposal about any such circumstances that have led to good outcomes consideration of a draft resolution of the House. That in the past. Even if there are exceptions, should not the was rightly described by the Public Administration Bill put in place the presumption that special advisers Committee as leaving should not be able to do those things and provide for an open, transparent procedure—not an Order in Council—to “too much discretion in the hands of the Prime Minister.” make the exemptions clear and open in Parliament? The Bill contains nothing about the Dissolution of Why should only selection into the civil service from the Parliament and nothing about many of the other powers outside world—this is how I read the Bill—be subject to listed last week. Crucially, it contains nothing about the open and fair competition and merit? What has happened power to appoint the Prime Minister, which remains in to the idea that promotion within the civil service the mysterious official channels of ways and means. should also be exclusively by merit and open competition? That is not acceptable in modern democracy; this House On a lesser but still important point, what has happened should openly elect our Prime Minister, after a general to the provision in respect of GCHQ, which was included election. The prerogative is simply arbitrary power dressed in a previous draft of the Bill but has now been lost? up in mediaeval clothes, and it is a means for the Finally, and crucially, why does the Bill contain no legal Government to avoid democratic scrutiny. We should duty on Ministers to respect civil service impartiality? be discussing a general provision to shift all prerogative The treaty ratification aspects of the Bill have been powers on to a statutory basis or to this House, and the discussed extensively, but the conclusion that I have Government should have to argue for any exceptions drawn from examining the Bill and listening to the to that. debate is that what the Bill provides for is almost purely May I just briefly mention the public order provisions, symbolic; it is not a real change. That is because the because I was disturbed by part of the debate about Government—this is the central issue with which the that earlier? I am happy that the provisions that exist Public Administration Committee, which the hon. Member now on protest near Parliament are being repealed, but for Cannock Chase chairs, is grappling—have a complete the Bill replaces them with a regulatory regime that stranglehold on what we get to vote on in this House. If could be abused. I am thinking about, for example, the a purely negative procedure is to be used in respect of power at large to confer discretions on senior police treaties, this House will never get to vote on a treaty officers and the power to impose a limit on the maximum when the Government do not want us to do so. What number of protestors without there being any limit to the Bill says about the House of Lords is that the that power. When this Bill reaches Committee we will Government can simply, by fiat, ignore what it says on a need to examine carefully what those provisions are treaty. In any case, clause 23 contains a general get-out meant to do and, if necessary, restrict their remit. clause allowing the Government to evade the entire On the judiciary, as the Secretary of State said, the proposed structure. effect of the Bill is to take the Prime Minister out of the loop on judicial appointments. I suppose that that is Mr. Straw: It was my experience as Foreign Secretary, also largely symbolic, since the Prime Minister is replaced when I regarded it as offensive to this House and our with the real power in the land—the power behind the democracy that Parliament had no formal, proper role throne all the time—the Lord Chancellor. to agree or to veto treaties, that led to this part of the On human rights, I have no objection to tidying up Bill being laid before the House. This provision is not, the anomalies to do with the devolved Governments. in any sense, supposed to be symbolic. We are, of However, if the Government are in a frame of mind to course, open to arguments as to how it could be improved, tidy up the Human Rights Act 1998, I urge them to but I should say that never before has there been—as consider not only the Bill promoted by the hon. Member there will be if this Bill is enacted—power for this for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) on foreign civil servants, House properly to veto a ratification if it so judges. which he has mentioned before, but, rather more importantly, his Bill on human rights, which would David Howarth: I am glad that the Secretary of State ensure that Government contracted-out services, which is open to further suggestions—the obvious one is to are only technically in the private sector, are included in move to use the affirmative system, as opposed to the the scope of the Human Rights Act. 835 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 836 Governance Bill Governance Bill The financial provisions of the Bill on the Comptroller grand title, that it would have more to it than the and Auditor General and the National Audit Office are measures that the Lord Chancellor told the House mostly harmless, but there is nothing in the Bill to deal about in his speech. It is like opening the fridge on a with the ludicrous lack of scrutiny to which the Government Monday morning and finding that all the best bits have are subject in this House before they spend public gone. Perhaps we have legislated our way into constitutional money. Our method of scrutiny takes place almost history and there is nothing left to do, but I had hoped entirely after the fact. We in this House have less say in that there would be more in the Bill, because there is advance of Government spending than a parish council still more to do. Perhaps, as we are only five months does about what that council spends. Since the reality of away from a general election—as fixed a term as is politics is that expenditure is policy and policy is expenditure, possible, because we know that the election will happen we are reduced to merely a spectator in government. It next year—the Lord Chancellor feels that he should seems to me that serious reforms are required to the way keep his best bits for the manifesto and for the fourth in which Parliament relates to the Government on term, should the electors of the United Kingdom re-elect money issues. The Bill, as it does with so many other this Government, as I hope they will. issues, simply tinkers lightly with the far edges of a very It is right to pay tribute to all three Lord Chancellors serious problem. in this Government—to Lord Irvine; to my former boss A Second Reading debate is supposed to be about the when I was a Parliamentary Private Secretary at the principle of a Bill, and the principle of this Bill appears Attorney-General and Solicitor-General’s Department, to be to do as little as possible about as much as possible Lord Falconer; and to the current Lord Chancellor. in a limited way. The big issues that face us about the They have been serious about the need for reform and legitimacy of the political system and the future of our change, and it is important that we recognise that democracy have been ignored. If I am right that we are although the Bill might not be the Bill that we would already in a constitutional moment—in a serious political have liked at this stage, it is part of that process. crisis—that is simply an inadequate response. I urge the Let me pick up on two or three aspects of the Bill. I Government to think again about what they want to hope that the Lord Chancellor will follow it through in achieve through the Bill and about whether it is right to the spirit in which he introduced the Second Reading introduce such a pathetic little Bill at this stage and debate. I have known him now for 30 years, and I know carry it over into the next Session. It might be a better that when he says that he is willing to engage in debate idea to take the whole thing away and to return in the on issues he will do so. The way in which he has dealt next Session with a serious attempt at reform. with interventions from right hon. and hon. Members and from Front Benchers shows that he will be willing 7.3 pm to engage in such debate in Committee. Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): It is always a pleasure I was interested by the suggestion proposed by the to follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (David hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster Howarth). I do not share his pessimism that we are in a (Mr. Field), which appeared to have come from a pamphlet huge political crisis. Although aspects of the public’s written by the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie), confidence in this House and the conduct of its Members whom I have always regarded as one of the cleverest have been affected, I do not think that it is a huge Members of this House. If he has written a pamphlet constitutional crisis. I hope that by the end of the about the need for temporary peers, it will certainly be debate we will have cheered him up and shown him that worth reading, and I shall rush off to the Library to do some good work has been done in the past 12 years. so. Let me take his pamphlet at face value, as it was described by the Lord Chancellor and by the hon. I begin by declaring an interest as a non-practising Member for Cities of London and Westminster. Its barrister. intention is to ensure that we appoint peers for a short This is the first debate on constitutional affairs since period, whether or not they serve as Ministers. Such a the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. provision should not be limited to people who serve as Friend the Member for North Swindon (Mr. Wills), Ministers of the Crown; it should extend to those in a announced that he will step down at the next election. It particular area of expertise, who could be appointed for is right to pay tribute to him for the work that he has a couple of years, as it would be unfair to put them in done in this area of policy. He has always been for a month and hope that they can master the intricacies extraordinarily passionate about constitutional affairs. of the way in which the other place operates. I was delighted when he chose Leicester as the first city I fully support the principle of temporary membership, to visit on his roadshow. I am not sure how many other especially as there appears, as the hon. Member for places he visited—[Interruption.] Lots, he tells us. It Cambridge has pointed out, to be no great difference was great to have him in Leicester and I hope that it among the three major parties about the need to make gave him a flavour of the willingness of the people of the House of Lords more democratic. I am not quite Leicester to engage in this great constitutional debate. sure where we are on the percentages, but our position is The Lord Chancellor is absolutely right that this has that the other place should be almost wholly elected. I been a breathtaking 12 years of great changes to our am not sure of the Conservative position, but I think constitution. We have seen devolution and the creation that the Liberal Democrats are in favour of a wholly of the Supreme Court, as well as changes to many other elected upper House. Given that there is not that much aspects of constitutional policy. The Government should difference, and accepting what the hon. and learned be commended for what they have done. However, I am Member for Beaconsfield said about our not being able a little disappointed by the Bill—a disappointment I to legislate in a day, the idea of temporary peers is a share with the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield good one, especially if they are brought in to serve in a (Mr. Grieve). I had expected, as the Bill has such a Government for a particular reason. 837 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 838 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Keith Vaz] There has not been a mass recruitment of new people. I hope that those who serve on the Committee considering There is no reason why people should be in the other the Bill will probe Ministers about what is happening place for life—under the old terms of what life should with the JAC. I do not want to pick a quarrel with the be—if they are there for a specific purpose. That is why Lord Chancellor about removing the Prime Minister I welcome the proposals in the Bill to allow peers to from the process, but he needs to accept the importance resign. I do not think that there is a hidden agenda of accountability. about any particular member of the Government or of We simply cannot have members of the judiciary the other House, but surely it must be right for a peer choosing themselves. There are lay members of the who wants to resign and to contest an election to the JAC, but they are likely to defer to a senior judge’s views House of Commons to be allowed to do so. I am not on any appointment. The result will be that the same clear whether that would affect the next general election. people will select themselves: sadly, that is what we have Perhaps the Minister of State, when he winds up, will be had in recent months, and that is why the overall able to tell us. However, it would be pointless to introduce balance of the judiciary has not changed. a Bill that allows peers to resign but then not allow them to do so and contest the next general election, if that is I turn now to the public order provisions in the Bill. I what they choose. am not sure what they are. The Lord Chancellor said that the present restrictions will be lifted, but that there My second point has to do with judicial appointments. are to be more restrictions. That will have to be probed I take the Lord Chancellor’s point that removing the in Committee: people have a right to go into Parliament Prime Minister from the process would be a technical square to have their say about the great issues of the change, but I have been here long enough to know that day. the word “technical” can be used about matters that are a little more significant than that. I am not certain that I have many members of the Tamil community in my the present Lord Chancellor has been in a position to constituency. During the conflict in Sri Lanka, many make a recommendation to the Prime Minister, or Tamils demonstrated in Parliament square against the whether the president of the Supreme Court was in Sri Lankan Government in the belief that they could place before my right hon. Friend took over, but I influence our Government to do more than they were cannot believe that any serving Prime Minister would doing. In fact, the demonstration lasted several months have told any of the past three Lord Chancellors, “I’m and cost the taxpayer £7.5 million. When the Home sorry, but I cannot accept your recommendation.”Certainly, Affairs Committee took evidence from the Mayor and I cannot believe that the current Prime Minister would the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, it was pointed say to the present Lord Chancellor, “Sorry, I don’t like out that police resources for that demonstration had your choices for president of the Supreme Court, or for been moved in from other parts of London. the deputy president and other members. Please let me I do not want to try to stop people demonstrating, have some other people to choose from.” but perhaps we should try to find another focal point I am worried that, once the selection process is complete, where they can do so without causing so much disruption. appointments are merely rubber-stamped. I do not think That would also prevent the amount of resources used that they should be, as the appointment of these very on the Tamil demonstration from having to be used in senior judges must be accountable to Parliament. I future. Obviously, it would be very nice if people did served on the Constitutional Affairs Committee under not shout at Members of Parliament as they moved in the enlightened leadership of the right hon. Member for and out of the Palace—although I know that the Lord Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith). He and I, and Chancellor is very used to standing on a soapbox and the hon. Member for Chichester, were very keen to using a megaphone. He does so every week in Blackburn; make sure that we had the judges in on a regular basis. I have witnessed him standing in the middle of the town Yesterday, we saw how the pre-appointment process square, shouting at everyone who goes past— in respect of the Children’s Commissioner panned out. I am not sure how that process might have affected the Mr. Straw: I have a conversation with my constituents. appointment of the president of the Supreme Court, but I am sure that at some stage he would have come in Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend engages with his to answer questions from members of the Constitutional constituents, and they engage with him. It is always very Affairs Committee. friendly and polite, but that is quite different from what I am not saying that I want to go back to the previous happens in Parliament square. We need to look at the system, in which one man or woman—a man, in the matter and get the balance right, but we must also case of the present Lord Chancellor—selected every remember that there are policing aspects to it. There is a judge, tribunal president or magistrate. However, our big cost to policing: when demonstrations take place, current system has not impressed me with its ability to we must make sure that they are properly policed, open up the judiciary in terms of diversity and gender, without necessarily using too many resources. so I am glad that the Lord Chancellor has set up his review to look at how the Judicial Appointments My final point concerns the ratification of treaties. Commission operates. I am glad too that the Opposition This is an excellent initiative on the part of the Lord spokesman, the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, Chancellor, although of course it is Parliament that has said that he supports the review, because it is must make a final decision on these matters. I only wish important to see how the JAC has worked. that we had given the US-UK extradition treaty the I am not very impressed with the JAC, in part because same level of scrutiny. there is not enough feedback for people who apply for The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) posts. By and large, the same civil servants who ran the was here a moment ago. His constituent Gary McKinnon system at Selborne House are running the present system. is facing removal to the US under the US-UK treaty. 839 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 840 Governance Bill Governance Bill The Home Affairs Committee today decided to hold I broke a three-line Whip to vote against those provisions, evidence sessions to look at the treaty again, as I believe finding myself voting against both my party and the very strongly that the Americans got the best of the Labour party. In fact, in all three of the major rebellions deal. I am not alone in believing that: as I made clear that I have undertaken since I became an MP, I have when we discussed these matters recently, my view is been in the happy position, over 12 years, of voting shared by a former Home Secretary. It is possible that against both the major parties. It is those provisions in treaties will be subject to better scrutiny if they are the 1999 Act that clause 26 will reverse. If there is a vote brought before the House, and I welcome what the on them, I certainly shall not vote against clause 26. Lord Chancellor proposes. It is worth reminding ourselves just how pernicious There have been huge constitutional changes over the what was done in 1999 is. It enables deceased hereditaries past 12 years, and I am very proud to have served in, to be replaced by an electorate restricted to hereditaries and supported, the Government who made them. However, of the same party.Lord Steel gave an interesting description some of us are disappointed with the Bill, from which of this. He said: we expected more but which lacks a big idea. The Prime “We”— Minister took over in June 2007, and he talked about the new constitutional settlement. At the time, I said to that is, the Liberal Democrats— him, “What we need is a new Magna Carta. We’ve done “had six candidates for a by-election and four voters. Before the so much, but we need to join it all together.” He agreed, Great Reform Bill of 1832, the rotten borough of Old Sarum had and said that that was exactly what we needed. I said the at least 11 voters. In the Labour Party, there were 11 candidates same thing to the Minister of State, but the problem and only three voters, and we had the spectacle of the Clerk of the Parliaments declaring to the world that a new Member had been appeared to be that people objected to paying the elected to the British Parliament by two votes to one.”—[Official £1 million proposed for the consultation exercise. Of Report, House of Lords, 20 July 2007; Vol. 694, c. 485.] course, the Magna Carta did not cost so much. We need to move on from that. We need to join all the bits together—whether through a written constitution, a new Bill of rights, or a new The effect of removing the remaining hereditaries Magna Carta. As my hon. Friend the Member for and the clauses on the removal and resignation of Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) said, this is a moment in Members will reduce the size of the House of Lords. our history. It would be great if we could join together That is much needed, for many reasons. First, the all the changes that we have made, and thereby leave an House of Lords is the second biggest Chamber in the impressive legacy of constitutional reform. world. The only larger Chamber claiming to have any democratic legitimacy at all, and that is pretty thin, is 7.19 pm the Chinese National party congress. Moreover, the UK is the only bicameral country where the second Chamber Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): I shall confine is larger than the first. my remarks almost exclusively to part 3 of the Bill, on the House of Lords. I agree with most of the Bill and The second reason why the House of Lords needs to with quite a number of the remarks that I have heard be reduced in size is that the problem of size has got this evening suggesting that some good things that worse under Labour. That is because the Government should have been in the Bill were left out—concerning have created peerages at an unprecedented rate. Most of the Attorney-General, for example. Several people suggested the hereditaries who were removed in 1999 never attended that after the Prime Minister’s speech announcing all anyway. Half the active hereditary peerage survived in these wonderful constitutional changes, it must be 1999 and became more active. Meanwhile, the Labour Christmas—but it turned out to be Christmas in the Government have appointed a huge number of peers— workhouse, not the Christmas that most of us are 386 out of a total of about 740. More than half the fortunate enough to enjoy these days. Members of the current House have come in since 1997. Labour, albeit understandably, because it was under- The Lords provisions are pretty meagre, as I have just represented in the Lords, has been packing the second said, but at least clause 26, which will slowly remove the Chamber since it came in. hereditary peerage, is on the right track. It is certainly overdue and it will finally break the link between the House of Lords and the hereditary principle. That must Kelvin Hopkins: Is not that the real problem with the be right. There are those who still challenge the House of Lords—the power of the Prime Minister to constitutional notion that in the 21st century only those appoint people to it, which gives him a control over who have been put into Parliament by the electorate older Back Benchers in this House and friends in business should have the right to make our laws, but there are outside? My hon. and learned Friend the Member for now very few takers indeed for the notion that people Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) has made the point should inherit the right to legislate—although, who that these creatures of the Prime Minister are even less knows, there may still be a few. legitimate and less independent than the hereditary peers, who exercise a degree of independence in voting, It is often forgotten that clause 26 is necessary, and and may be better politicians than some of the creatures that the hereditaries are still in place, because it suited of the Prime Minister. the Blair Government’s purpose to keep them there. Not only did the Blair Government beat a hasty retreat from their pre-election promises of democracy for the Mr. Tyrie: If I did not know the hon. Gentleman Lords, but Tony Blair personally negotiated and stitched better, I might believe that he was a convert to the up a backroom deal with Lord Cranborne to perpetuate hereditary principle, but I presume that he is not. the hereditary peerage. That deal was subsequently Appointment is, by a short head, better than heredity, given legislative effect in clauses in the House of Lords but democracy is far better than both. I shall come to Act 1999. that in a moment. 841 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 842 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Tyrie] would be the introduction of term peerages: peerages conferred for a fixed period. I have held to the view for The Labour deficit that existed in 1997 has been some years that it might be necessary as an interim replaced with a Labour majority over the Conservatives measure. of a little under 10 per cent. in the House of Lords. The My right hon. Friend the Member for North-West third reason why size is such a problem is that that has Hampshire (Sir George Young) is now the shadow inadvertently created a ratchet. I do not think Labour Leader of the House, but earlier in the year, when he intended that. When the Conservatives come in, whether was still a Back Bencher, he and I published a paper now or later, we will not let matters rest. We will rightly setting out the proposal, with some detail attached to it. want to match Labour’s number with new creations, Term peerages would adopt the approach, already agreed then we will probably want to create a modest majority between the parties, that a predominantly elected second of our own. So in an effort to achieve parity and Chamber would comprise those serving a single, non- beyond, the overall size of the Lords will increase, renewable term of three Parliaments. The term of those because those will be life peerages, and so it will go on. appointments would therefore be the same as that which Each time there is a change of Government, there will we would eventually introduce for a democratic second be tit for tat. We cannot carry on like that, with an ever Chamber: three Parliaments. I do not support varying expanding House of Lords. the term to take account of a Government’s particular There is one radical solution, to which I referred a needs at a particular time to put in a Minister whom moment ago and for which I have argued since I was they might want for a short period. The term should be first elected to the Commons. Let us have a smaller, fixed and, perhaps, salaried, and it should be understood democratically elected second Chamber. This view is that getting a place in that Chamber would involve strongly held across the House of Commons—59 per work and commitment. It would not be a status cent. of Conservative MPs voted in the 2007 Divisions appointment. for at least one of the options for a largely or wholly The advantages of the measure would be apparent elected second Chamber. The equivalent figures for very quickly. It would end the ratchet and emphasise Labour were 76 per cent. and for the Liberal Democrats that those people were active working politicians. Lord 98 per cent. Jay, the Chairman of the House of Lords Appointments Furthermore, as the Lord Chancellor suggested earlier, Commission, recently emphasised that the appointments when it comes to much of the detail, there is a striking process should amount of agreement about the type of elected Chamber “move further along that curve from honour to job.” that we should put in place. I was initially sceptical I agree, as I think most people do. about the work being done on the basis of the White Paper that was published, but I am now much more Another reason why we should support the proposal optimistic that it has made a considerable contribution is that, unlike most proposals for democracy, it would to the debate. leave existing life peers unaffected. One might find it However, if the chances of securing democracy in the surprising that I should say that, but any proposal that near future were already relatively slim, they can now be would fundamentally alter the life peerage will meet considered virtually non-existent, as a consequence of such a wall of opposition that proceedings on it will the economic crisis. That has changed everything. Any take over this place for a year or two at a time. By Government who tried to make such a change in such agreement between the parties, however, new life peerages an economic climate would be accused of having the could be brought to an end, and we could restrict wrong priorities, and the accusation would probably appointments to interim peerages—much as, over time, stick. People would become all the more vitriolic if, as I hereditary peerages were largely but not entirely replaced suspect would happen and a number of Members have by life peerages after the 1958 change. implied would happen, introducing such a Bill precipitated Almost everyone agrees that the current arrangements a constitutional crisis. for the House of Lords are unsatisfactory to say the There are a good number of last ditchers in the other least—almost everyone, that is, except a majority in the place and they will throw out such a Bill. We will be into House of Lords itself, who are a somewhat interested a constitutional crisis, with huge amounts of parliamentary party in this matter. However, an increasing number time, energy and activity taken up with trying to get it acknowledge my earlier point that an early move to through. It will be a rerun of what happened 100 years democracy is unrealistic in this economic climate, so ago. Can we afford to engage in that while we are trying term peerages would be a practical means of invigorating to tackle the biggest economic recession since the war, the Lords while addressing many of its current problems, when the debt-to-GDP ratio has just doubled and we strengthening our Parliament and constitution and retaining are running a deficit unprecedented in peacetime history? some continuity with the best of the current House. I do not think the country would understand that, and I shall table an amendment in Committee to give any party that tried to achieve it would be making a effect to term peerages. In doing so, I should very much huge political and governmental mistake. like the support of my Front Benchers and, I hope, However, the choice need not be between the measures Labour Members as well as Liberal Members. I hope in part 3, on the one hand, and full democracy on the and believe that it is an idea whose time has come. other. There is another measure, very limited and with There has been a great deal of gloom, some of which immediate effect, which could control the ratchet on the we have heard today, about the British constitution, number of peerages created, improve the working of about Parliament and about the public’s loss of confidence the existing House, and at the same time lay the foundations in us. The proposal that I have outlined will not overturn for a more radical democratic House, should a subsequent all that, but by demonstrating that we can work together Parliament decide to go down that route. That measure on a relatively modest, yet in the long run far-reaching, 843 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 844 Governance Bill Governance Bill change, we will do something to show that we in this There is another fact about the civil service which Chamber are working for the common weal, and we worries me: civil servants have tended to be dominated will do just a little bit to help restore the public’s by the prevailing ideology of the past 20 or 30 years. confidence in us. When I was a student many years ago, I met a former senior civil servant who was a university lecturer. He 7.34 pm said that in his day there was a genuine debate inside the civil service about economics, and if policy changed Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): I very much there were always civil servants around who were schooled appreciate the speech by the hon. Member for Chichester in an alternative view, and they could put it into practice. (Mr. Tyrie), but I assure him that I am actually a That is not the case now. The Treasury was at fault in unicameralist who voted accordingly in our series of not seeing the recent crisis that occurred. I hear very votes in the Chamber. I voted for unicameralism and little criticism of the Treasury, but I think that it was at against everything else, as did a number of my comrades fault. If somebody had been ringing the alarm bells, we on the Labour Benches. Indeed, half of all Labour would not have got as close to the cliff edge as we did. Back Benchers voted for that amendment, despite the Perhaps I have a dream that there was once a golden age attractions of being put out to grass towards the end of for the civil service when it was dominated by people of their careers. They still voted in a principled way for good will—career civil servants who were not at all unicameralism, and I was very pleased by that. tainted by the interests of money outside, and had open I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak, and minds. even more pleased to be a member of the Select Committee on Public Administration, which my hon. Friend the Another fact about the civil service is that it is, in all Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) so splendidly things, wise to be able to discuss one’s view with someone chairs. It has really been an experience: we have discussed who opposes them. In this Chamber we have an enormous these matters at length on many occasions and interviewed range of views, and every time we put forward a view it many senior figures from politics and Government. can be challenged. Someone who surrounds himself with people all of whom agree with him, or eliminates I want to cover several issues, but I start with the from his office anybody who disagrees with him, will right to statutory protection for an independent civil finish up making mistakes. That has happened in the service. The civil service has certain problems. This view past. An example that has been put to me is that of may be unfashionable, but I do not like the idea that the Nigel Lawson, as Chancellor, pushing the exchange rate civil service should be permeated by business and outside mechanism strategy. Apparently he did not want people interests. It is absolutely accepted that we should have who took an alternative view, and surrounded himself staff of the highest intellectual calibre in the senior civil with those who supported the ERM strategy. That was service, but they should be career civil servants who see a catastrophic mistake that went badly wrong; I suggest themselves as lifelong, committed people—committed that it was even responsible for his party’s loss of the to the service of the public and the state. They should general election in 1997. It was the folk memory of the not have one foot in business, nor should they be disaster of the ERM strategy that destroyed the Tory politicised. They should not look for financial advancement Government more than anything else. If Nigel Lawson or advantage at any stage; they should see themselves as had had around him people who took a strongly different servants of the state and have a moral compass—to view, he might not have made that mistake. I like to coin a phrase—in respect of their attitude to the job. think that our civil servants will be strong enough to The post of senior civil servant should be a special welcome alternative views and at least to have a debate calling, not something tainted by association with making about major matters of policy. money and the like. I have another concern, about the Comptroller and I am worried about drift in the civil service. Some Auditor General—but excuse me, Mr. Deputy Speaker: people see it as beneficial to the service, but I do not. It I have a sore throat and a cold, and I do not think that I has been suggested to me, for example, that there is an shall be able to continue for much longer because of my in-house corporate lobby for the six big energy producers, mild indisposition. Having made some of the points meaning that civil servants resist proposals for localised that I wished to make, I will save the rest of my remarks renewable energy systems by dragging their feet and for another occasion. making life difficult for those involved. It is not without significance that we have less renewable energy than every other European country apart from Malta and 7.41 pm Luxembourg, and I suspect that civil servants have had a part to play in that. I do not blame all civil servants, Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): It is but the accusation has been put to me and I suspect that always a pleasure to listen to the hon. Member for there is a basis to it. Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins), even when he is Some years ago, a leading business man was employed struggling with a sore throat, from which I hope he by a company to secure private finance initiative contracts soon recovers. from the Department of Health, and all of a sudden he Before reading the Bill, I had a look at the explanatory was appointed as the Department’s industrial director, notes—I usually do it the other round—and found levering out PFI schemes from the inside to his friends to my surprise that they were full of aspirational on the outside. He subsequently went off to become a comments from the Green Paper of July 2007, stating banker. The civil service should not consist of such that the background to the Bill included the Government’s people. They should be in banking, no doubt, and in goals private business, but they should not be representing the “To invigorate our democracy…To clarify the role of Government, public interest from inside the civil service. That has both central and local…To rebalance power between Parliament concerned me for a long time. and the Government, and give Parliament more ability to hold 845 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 846 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Sir Alan Beith] merit in his proposal, particularly if it is possible that a new Government, of whatever kind, might—because the Government to account…and…To work with the British nothing had yet been done to change the Lords— have people to achieve a stronger sense of what it means to be British.” to make some initial appointments. That all sounds very fine, but it does not seem to have a An alternative solution to the problem is to allow great deal to do with the Bill that we now have before us. Governments to have a certain number of Ministers I appreciate that that Green Paper also related to some who are not a Member of either House but who can be of the other things that the Government have done. I questioned in either House. We already have the problem celebrated one of those with them only last Friday with that some of the most powerful Ministers in the the opening of the Supreme Court—a happy occasion. Government, such as the Business Secretary, Lord That is an important symbolic change that also has Mandelson, cannot be brought into the Chamber of some practical significance and one that I very much this House to be questioned, although they can be welcome. That measure was introduced only after my brought into Select Committees. There is no reason why Committee, the Justice Committee, had persuaded the we should not make arrangements for a small number Government to get it right following the back-of-an- of Ministers, whether from the Lords or not from either envelope job with which they started, but all credit to House, to be questioned in this Chamber. them for carrying it through. I have not made up my mind to oppose the proposal When I looked from those grand aspirations to the by the hon. Member for Chichester, but my worry is Bill, I saw a Bill that had first been stripped of some of that it would give a spurious legitimacy to appointment the important issues that were raised in 2007, such as for potentially quite a long period and further delay the the role of the Attorney-General, and seems even reform that is required—the creation of a predominantly slighter when set against the Prime Minister’s statement elected second Chamber. I suspect that he must have on the constitution in July this year. It represents a been influenced by hearing about leaders in his own distinct change of atmosphere. I was struck by the party starting to hand out their own future peerages. Secretary of State’s quoting the report by the Joint We even know who some of them will be, if the Committee on the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill Conservatives get the opportunity to create them. If we and indicating that there was significant opposition in are to believe what we read in the press, serving officers the House of Lords to the proposals to change the still receiving their pay in Her Majesty’s forces—in the precise status of the Attorney-General. I do not know case of Sir Richard Dannatt—are being told that a whether his experience compares with mine, but I find peerage will be theirs. In respect of the House of Lords, that in discussions in the other place one encounters the Bill, whether or not amended in the way that the the trade union of former Law Officers, who find it hon. Member for Chichester suggests, goes nowhere difficult to accept that there should ever be any change towards meeting the Prime Minister’s aspirations. in that position. They are rather like the Lord The Bill does not advance the aspirations about Chancellor in “Iolanthe”: rebalancing the relationship between the Executive and “The Law is the true embodiment Parliament. I agree that it is right that Parliament Of everything that’s excellent.” should approve treaties, but let nobody suppose that in In particular, members of that informal trade union most situations that will not mean the Government of believe that any change in the position of Attorney-General the day winning the support of their own Members to casts doubt on the ability that they themselves exercised ensure that a treaty is ratified. The Bill does not affect to draw a proper distinction between their political and the things that severely unbalance the relationship between legal roles—that it casts doubt on their integrity. Of the Executive and Parliament now. Even in the workings course, it is nothing of the kind—it is a consideration of of Parliament itself, so many things need to be attended what would be a proper system for the future. Nevertheless, to. I sincerely hope that those matters will be addressed that seems to be a pretty powerful body at the other end by the Public Administration Committee, chaired by of the building. the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), The Bill fails to meet the objectives set out in the Prime which plays a significant part in this process. Minister’s statement. Let us start with the House of In the Justice Committee, we feel strongly that there Lords. The hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie), are crucial things to be done. The control of the Order who is a valued member of the Justice Committee, Paper by the Executive means that what this House advanced his own interesting proposal, but what we are discusses is effectively decided by the Executive. The in danger of living with for many years to come is not dual role of the Leader of the House in being the main what this House voted for—a predominantly elected channel for House business, yet at the same time a second Chamber—but an appointed Chamber in which member of the Executive, is not the way in which most more and more people are appointed and all new legislatures would run their affairs. The House itself has Governments carry out a rebalancing by appointing no mechanism for introducing effective motions relating many more peers to ensure that the Chamber is not to business and the timing of business other than through overwhelmed by those from the previous Administration. the Leader of the House. The House itself is not making The hon. Gentleman quoted the very high figure of the decisions about how the Government’s business 300-odd peers appointed under the present Government. should be dealt with. The Government are entitled to The Prime Minister has himself appointed no fewer bring their business before the House and to have a than eleven peers to be Ministers, many of whom have means of ensuring that they are not frustrated by delay. since given up that role but still have the position of However, the House should have the power to decide legislator for life that membership of the House of what are the most significant parts of that business and Lords confers. It now looks as though we will have a how it can be effectively debated, as well as to say, “We long continuation of appointment, possibly moderated need more time to deal with this Bill even if we have to in the way the hon. Gentleman suggested. There is sacrifice some time on another Bill.” At the moment, 847 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 848 Governance Bill Governance Bill the House does not have that power. That is not to is governed by the Government of the United Kingdom. anyone’s benefit, least of all those who have to work It is governed by UK Ministers and the UK Parliament, with the legislation that the House passes. so not only is Parliament unrepresentative of the balance If anybody thought that the Government, in introducing of parties in England, but many Ministers dealing the idea of confirmation or appointment hearings, had entirely with English matters are drawn from the other any intention of rebalancing the relationship between parts of the UK. Parliament and the Executive, they will have been disabused There are many different ways of responding to that of that notion by the discovery that on a rare occasion problem, but it cannot be acceptable simply to say that when a Committee has said, “No, we don’t like the idea nothing has changed. Things clearly have changed—people of this appointment”, the Executive have replied , “That’s look at Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and see very interesting, but we’re taking no notice whatever.” different kinds of decisions being taken. They say, “We Nothing about the Bill or the measures surrounding it do not have the power to make those decisions, either in will rebalance the relationship between the Executive a region of England, in a local authority area or at and Parliament, so it totally fails to satisfy the Prime England level.” The Justice Committee has addressed Minister’s aspirations. that point in its report on devolution, and the Government What about the decentralising of power to local must address it. government? I see no evidence that the Government are Another crucial issue that is absent from the prepared to take many steps in that direction or that Government’s thinking and from the Bill is that of they have accepted the fundamental philosophy required fixed-term Parliaments. As long as the Prime Minister to so do, which is that local authorities in different parts can seek a dissolution at a time of his choosing, Parliament of the country can do things differently and frame is weakened in relation to the Executive and we impose different targets and objectives instead of having them a limitation on its ability to challenge them. set by central Government. That is an issue for all the I turn now to the role of the Attorney-General, parties to consider, and it is part of my party’s philosophy which I mentioned earlier. It was covered in the draft to a significant extent. Even we have to challenge ourselves Bill but is not in the Bill in front of us. The Attorney-General from time to time and ask whether we are abiding by the combines a ministerial role as overseer of the prosecution philosophy of recognising localism. system with the role of legal adviser to the Government I am convinced that the Conservative party has not and that of deciding whether certain prosecutions should absorbed a point that had a certain resonance in go ahead. The view of the Justice Committee was that Conservative circles in times past—the importance of those roles should be separated, and that view is widespread local decisions, locally made. The ideas that the party is outside the House. It is brought into sharp focus when currently putting forward are not backed up by a real controversial cases arise. philosophical commitment. Whenever anybody uses the The situation was in some ways worsened when the expression “postcode lottery”, I have to say, “Just a assumption was created that the Attorney-General should minute. We are bound to have differences between postcodes attend not just Cabinet meetings at which her advice if we genuinely allow local authorities to make different was needed but all Cabinet meetings, which was the decisions and make them democratically accountable situation until relatively recently. When we questioned for doing so.” I challenge that term whenever I hear it. the current Attorney-General about that, she indicated Of course people are entitled to campaign that their that it was the Prime Minister’s wish that she should area should get what another area is providing, but in attend all Cabinet meetings. I thought that that answer the context of different areas making different choices was rather revealing, because it showed the significance among competing priorities. to her of the Prime Minister’s wishes. I would rather The Prime Minister has raised the issue of electoral hear the Attorney-General say, “The Prime Minister reform and talked about a referendum on the alternative may want certain things, but I am the Attorney-General vote system. Indeed, the Government commissioned a and my role is very distinct.” There are many issues on substantial piece of work about the details of electoral which she has to say exactly that. reform, which produced a good, objective statement There have been some changes in the wake of the about various kinds of electoral system. It was one of discussions on the draft Bill, and the Attorney-General the more objective things that I have seen come from the does not now attend all Cabinet meetings. We are back Government on the subject. However, none of that to the previous situation, and she attends when asked to indicates any real progress or commitment. We will not do so to discuss particular matters. The decision was rebalance the relationship between Parliament and the made that there should be a protocol to strengthen the Executive if Governments can, for most of the time, independence of the Director of Public Prosecutions, rely on a significant majority in this House that is not which I welcome as it has given a certain new authority reflected in votes in the country. The Prime Minister has to the Crown Prosecution Service. My Committee recently also mentioned a written constitution, which can cover reported on the work of the CPS and the progress that a wide range of possibilities and would be a major it is making. undertaking for this country. One issue that the Committee was particularly concerned Perhaps even more significant are the issues that the about was the power in the draft Bill for the Attorney- Prime Minister has not mentioned and are not in the General to discontinue not only prosecutions but Bill, but are fundamental if we are reviewing our investigations by the Serious Fraud Office. That is no constitution. The one that few people dare to discuss is longer in the Bill, as that whole section has gone. The the English question. England has been left with a response to our questions and criticisms was that that pre-devolution form of government in a pre-devolution power essentially already existed, because the SFO is time warp. The government of Scotland, Wales and the responsibility of the Attorney-General. If anybody Northern Ireland has changed fundamentally, but England believes that that power exists, I am rather concerned 849 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 850 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Sir Alan Beith] To return to the overall theme, the Prime Minister has announced grand aspirations. Clearly, this is a time about it. I hope that its absence from the Bill can be when we need to offer people a basis on which they can taken as an indication that Parliament does not want it have greater confidence that they have a system of to be viewed in that light. It is one thing for the government that can respond to their concerns and Attorney-General to decide that a prosecution should govern the country efficiently, and in which nobody has not go ahead on the grounds of national security, but it too much power. That requires a lot a fundamental is quite another for her to decide that a matter should constitutional change. not be investigated at all. That power does not exist in The Government’s approach to constitutional reform, relation to police or Revenue and Customs prosecutions, the Committee has argued, has been ad hoc and piecemeal. and it should not be assumed to exist in the case of The reforms that we have been talking about will determine serious fraud. the direction and nature of our institutions for generations On national security, my view, which was reflected in to come, so we must get it right and it must be done what the Committee said, is that it is not really the properly. Therefore, we need an underpinning set of Attorney-General who knows about that. There are constitutional principles based on a proper understanding circumstances in which the Prime Minister, advised by of the position and role of Parliament in relation to intelligence agencies, knows things about national security other institutions of state. The reforms cannot be taken that will be unknown to the Attorney-General, and in isolation: one affects another. there are very exceptional circumstances when it will be I do not think we have had a process that best right for the Prime Minister to make representations to achieves that; nor do I think that the roadshow will the DPP about the national security implications of achieve it. As the hon. Member for Cannock Chase proceeding with a prosecution. When that is the case, indicated earlier, there is a case for some form of those representations should come directly from the constitutional convention or commission to take on a Prime Minister, which would make them persuasive to wider responsibility for ensuring that good, underlying the DPP. I do not see a necessary role for the Attorney- principles are carried through into sound constitutional General in that process. reforms. Essentially, the Justice Committee argued that the That is one of the lessons of devolution in Scotland office should be separated out. There should be a legal and Wales. It was much more difficult to persuade adviser to the Government who is a career civil servant, people that constitutional change should take place in which is the direction in which things are moving in Wales, because there had not been the same process of Scotland. The current Lord Advocate has moved from constitutional convention as there was in Scotland. one Administration to another and remained in office, Now that devolution has happened in Wales, I would so that is moving in the direction of a career appointment. not advise anyone to put money on people voting in There should still be a ministerial role for someone with future to reverse the constitutional changes that created responsibility for whether the prosecution system is an Assembly and Government there. In Scotland, the working, efficient and properly resourced. I hope that I process was made much easier by the fact that there was am wrong in imagining that the Government have carefully a substantial amount of agreement by a wide range of drafted the Bill to prevent us from discussing that bodies, parties, and community institutions and matter in Committee, because many of us feel that we organisations, about the direction of travel. Constitutional ought to do so. change needs to be properly underpinned, widely discussed and more ambitious than the Bill. Mr. Tyrie: I have just one point to make. I strongly agree with everything that the right hon. Gentleman has just said about the Attorney-General’s role, but he 8.3 pm did not make the point that it was not only the Justice Committee that came to that conclusion, but the Mr. Douglas Carswell (Harwich) (Con): This debate, Select Committee on Constitutional Affairs, both of I believe, illustrates what is so wrong with our constitution which the right hon. Gentleman chaired. The Public and demonstrates how dire things are, not because of Administration Committee also looked at the issue and anything that is being said, but by the manner of the came to the same conclusion. The same evidence from exchange. Look how barely attended the Chamber is! the same people was then heard by the Joint Committee, We debate our constitution, yet the people’s tribunes which extraordinarily seemed to divine from it a quite are not here. Whips scurry around outside desperate to different conclusion. I think that that might say something gather enough speakers to try to keep things ticking about how the decision to withdraw that part of the Bill along and running until 10 pm. The agents of the came to be taken. Executive try to create the illusion of debate—a debate with all the spontaneity of a Latin Mass. So moribund Sir Alan Beith: When talking about the Justice is our constitution, so monumentally useless our legislature, Committee, I tend to subsume our previous existence as it is reduced to a talking shop, and it cannot even do the Constitutional Affairs Committee, having been that until 10 pm without prodding from the Executive. Chairman throughout, as the changes of departmental So much for our proud tradition of Parliament, so name and structure were reflected in what we were much for this legislature. doing. However, the hon. Gentleman is quite right to There is much that is wrong with our constitution—a refer to the other bodies that have taken the same view. deep, deep malaise. The Justice Secretary galloped through Those on the Joint Committee who argued very strongly some of the changes of the past decade, which he for that view were perplexed by anyone drawing a proclaimed as a blueprint for change. It is more like a different conclusion from the evidence with which they blueprint to replace democracy with quangocracy. Power were presented. has shifted from those we elect to unelected officials. 851 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 852 Governance Bill Governance Bill Those whose names actually appear on ballot papers no envisages. There is currently too little debate, too little longer seem to have much actual say over public policy. oversight and too little scrutiny.Instead, Select Committees Instead, key matters are decided, for example, by activist should be required annually to approve the expenditure judges adjudicating on the basis of a bogus Human of their respective Departments and the non-departmental Rights Act. Public policy is formulated by an alphabet public bodies associated with them. soup of quangos. We have the Qualifications and Proper legislatures in other parts of the world properly Curriculum Authority, the Child Support Agency and scrutinise tax revenue and how it is spent. Committees the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency—the QCA, of Congress can go through budgets item by item. If we the CSA and the DVLA. In fact, there are so many had that, those who we elect might at last be able to quangos that they have run out of letters of the alphabet. make good on the tax-and-spend promises that they FSA stands both for Food Standards Agency and Financial pretend are in their gift now. Giving Select Committees Services Authority; a food quango and a financial service real power and independence, power to oversee finance, quango. and one even to confirm ministerial appointments, Nothing in the Bill will put any of that right. There is would lead us towards the separation of powers that we nothing to rein in the Executive, its agencies or the urgently need. quango regime. There is nothing to restore purpose to The Bill does little to improve our constitution. It is a this Parliament and nothing that will return dignity to product of SW1. Is it not the proud boast of the British politics. No wonder turnout has fallen in each election left that they were once the party of English radicalism and no surprise that fewer bother to vote. It is not that and the party that dispersed power away from the people are apathetic, but that the public have correctly unaccountable elites? The Bill focuses instead on the clocked that our democracy is broken. petty concerns of those elites in SW1—demonstrations The Bill ought to contain measures to renew our in Parliament square and such like. There is nothing in political system. What about a right of popular initiative? this Bill that invokes the spirit of the Levellers or the If people had a direct say over what the House debated, Chartists. It will do nothing to fulfil the incomplete there would be fewer debates like this. There would be English revolution. It will do nothing to provide us with more time to consider issues that actually matter to the far-reaching radical reforms that we so urgently people. Our agenda would be less the smug musings of need. a self-satisfied tribe in SW1. The Bill should contain provision for people’s Bills to be included in each Queen’s Speech. New Zealand has a right of popular initiative. 8.10 pm It is compatible with, and complementary to, a system Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I wish of parliamentary democracy. MPs would be obliged to today to address the proposals in the Bill to remove the vote for what people wanted them to debate, but they hereditary principle of the House of Lords. The wish to would no longer be able to ignore popular concerns. remove peers is based on the seemingly arbitrary principle Constitutional change needs to include the power to of how they were ennobled. That is a worrying portent recall MPs who are guilty of wrongdoing. I proposed a for the future. It takes another step towards the Bill to that effect last week, but the Justice Secretary did Government’s stated goal of a democratic second Chamber, not actually support it. For all his smooth words, nothing and it is another example of the Government’s scattergun happened. approach to Lords reform. What is one day deemed The Bill should address the balance—or, rather, it valid is the next day cast aside. Though the remaining should address the imbalance of power—between the hereditary peers were retained in 1999, the Government Executive and the legislature. Fiddling about with a now wield grand claims of democracy to advance the Ponsonby rule will not do. We need to recalibrate the case for their removal. relationship between the legislature and the Executive— The argument over the future of the second Chamber fundamental, radical change. It is not the Ponsonby is composition versus effectiveness. That is certainly rule that most explains how the Executive dominates the correct way to address this. However, viewed from this legislature, but the abuse of Crown prerogative over the House of Commons, the wrong question is presented— money and estimates, and over appointments and patronage. the question of popular accountability. The House of That is what has reduced the House. It has diminished Lords is built not upon the legitimacy of election, but hon. Members to being puppets of Whitehall and Ministers the legitimacy of knowledge. The level of experience to being apologists to the Sir Humphrey Applebys. and expert opinion in the Lords cannot easily be reproduced The House was given to understand that the legislature through election. However keen the minds of those in would approve key Executive appointments. Amid much this Chamber, few of us are held to be leading authorities fanfare, we were told how pre-appointment hearings or globally recognised figures on even the subjects that would help to democratise the quangos. Yesterday, we we hold dear. The experience of decades of work cannot saw a Secretary of State ride roughshod over legislative be picked up from simply studying an issue—it must be oversight. The Select Committee recommendations were lived. Peers contribute to a body of knowledge unique just ignored. Pre-appointment hearings are, frankly, in the world. worthless. The Bill ought to provide for full confirmation Therefore, the removal of the House of Lords would hearings for quango officials and senior civil servants. damage both the quality of legislation and the quality No approval, no contract: that would rein in the quango of government. The rush of legislation through this state. Until that happens, there will be no meaningful Chamber already leaves a mountain of details to be scrutiny over Executive appointments. amended by the Lords. Without the revision that the Likewise, we need in the Bill to reform how the House Lords provides, we have a choice between significantly oversees finances. Estimates days are a charade. Supply reforming this Chamber, and allowing the quality of estimates need to be more than just changed, as the Bill legislation to diminish rapidly. 853 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 854 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Andrew Turner] would insert more uncertainties and undesirables into the constitution than it could ever hope to remove. The second part of this point is that the creation of What is needed is not rapid change, but simply a limit an elected second Chamber would also undermine the on the size of the Lords, perhaps no larger than at the quality of government. Many members of the other present level. That would curtail the power of patronage place have served with distinction. Ridding ourselves of over successive Governments, with peers replaced as such a pool to satisfy the demands of democracy is one and when necessary. As Lord Hugh Cecil MP said, in thing, but ridding ourselves of individuals is utterly early 20th century, on the subject of Lords reform: self-defeating. I think of the Marquess of Salisbury, the “Why rush into danger instead of staying in safety?” first Prime Minister of the 20th century. His Government Finally, I would like to draw attention to the title of passed, for example, the Naval Defence Act 1889, which this Bill—the Constitutional Reform and Governance ensured the Royal Navy’s pre-eminence. I think of Lord Bill. It contains very few provisions for the administration Carrington and his integrity. He ended a lifetime of of this House. I question whether the Government are service by resigning on a point of responsibility which, simply trying to win a symbolic victory outside this sadly, does not echo as often as it should. I also refer to Chamber, when what is required is a substantive Lord Mandelson, who has sought so animatedly to reassessment of what goes on inside it. reinvigorate this Government. Indeed, it is the appointment of Lord Mandelson and others that betrays the inconsistency at the heart of the Government’s approach. 8.18 pm They cannot, on the one hand, endow an unelected Mr. Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): I person with a senior position in the Government, and am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the Second on the other, decry the same system that allowed them Reading of this Bill. I assure my hon. Friend the Member to do so. They cannot have it both ways. Is it not for Harwich (Mr. Carswell) that I am genuinely here to contrary to use such a wonderful resource while seeking speak on the Bill and under no other pretence. I wish to to do away with it for future Governments? Does the touch on two parts of the Bill in particular—part 1 in willingness of this Government to use the Lords not respect of the civil service and part 6 on courts and legitimise its existence—an existence that the Labour tribunals. party has lived with for 12 years now? First and foremost, however, I want to develop some As the Government are keen to point out, peers may of the arguments made already this evening about the not be accountable to the nation. But they are free from omissions from the Bill, many of which are extremely the concerns of keeping their seat. This independence significant. It is fair to say that the Bill has received would not be retained with an elected membership. rather muted applause. It has been described as lacking Such a Chamber would simply end up mirroring the in real zeal, as a mouse of a Bill, as trimmings rather arrangements and partisanship of the Commons. Two than meat and by the hon. Member for Cambridge Chambers, in which a Member’s allegiance is as much (David Howarth) as a pathetic little Bill. I shall be more to his party as to his conscience, would not be conducive charitable and call it a modest Bill, although the original to reasoned debate. Two Chambers, in which the constitutional reform plans have clearly been watered Government command the majority and the timetable, down since last year. would certainly not be conducive to effective scrutiny. The question is more what is not in the Bill than what Hereditary peers are, if anything, the epitome of is in it. Clearly the seeds of the Bill lay in the idea that independence. They carry with them a duty and a sense there was a deep fracture at the heart of our democracy of loyalty that exists outside politics. I am very sad that and that restoring public trust in the political system the majority of hereditary peers have gone, but gone was a priority. For me, the heart of that is ensuring the they mostly have. This Government, and Tony Blair’s independence of this House, and the genuine purpose before them, have sought to end generations of successive of its power is to hold the Government to account. service and instead replaced it with partisan appointment as and when they saw fit. To say one type of patronage On 27 May, the Prime Minister said that one of his is wrong, while promoting another, is nonsensical. More main priorities was the than 600 hereditary peers were removed because of “strengthening of Parliament against the executive”. their perceived lack of democratic credentials, but almost I am still a relatively new Member of this House, but I 400 life peers have been created since 1997, with the have been exposed to the system of Select Committees, same apparent deficit. in which one of the first innovations in trying to provide The proposals for an elected House simply advance greater scrutiny of the Executive through public this contradiction. Holding elections once every 15 years appointments has been tried out. Sadly, I can feel only would simply create life peers who are willing to stand— dismayed by the process that has been played out in the once—for election. These people are likely to be picked Children, Schools and Families Committee this week or at least pushed by parties. If that were the case, all and last. I was led to believe that we, as Committee that the Government would have accomplished would members, had a responsibility as well as a mandate to be to create a new system of patronage after they had ensure that those public appointments, through the abolished the present one. Furthermore, I fail to understand pre-appointment hearings, were genuinely in the interests how an individual’s actions can be held to account if of the public and that our word would be taken not for they serve only one term. How is a term of such length granted but with great seriousness and care by the any more responsive to the will of voters than the Executive making the appointment. lifelong terms at present? Despite the noises from the Government about wanting Ending the by-election of hereditary peers and beginning to open up the scrutiny of the Executive, we are left the sapping of their number represents a step toward an essentially with a charade in which Committee members—I unknown constitutional settlement. I believe that it include myself in this—feel no more than spectators of 855 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 856 Governance Bill Governance Bill an Executive sport. It raises the question whether what There is more that we can do with Select Committees. the Government want to achieve is what we want to We could have elected Chairmen. As my hon. Friend achieve. There is no point in holding pre-appointment the Member for Harwich said, we could also open up hearings unless they have meaning. How can a unanimous Departments’ finances to Select Committee scrutiny. decision by a Select Committee not to endorse a candidate That would send a clear message that the power of the for a prominent and important public post—the Children’s Executive needs to be far more measured against the Commissioner—not even be given a second thought by power of the legislature. the Secretary of State when deciding on the correct Let me move on to some aspects of the Bill that, in person for the appointment, and simply be brushed to the main, I welcome. I start with part 6, which deals one side without any consultation? with courts and tribunals. We have heard from other That is a huge disappointment, which reflects in Members, particularly the right hon. Member for Leicester, many ways my concerns about omissions from the Bill. East (Keith Vaz), about the judicial appointments system. Where in the Bill will the patronage of the Prime It is clear that the process of judicial appointments has Minister be cut? Where does the Bill address the Prime been subject to substantial change in recent years, as the Minister’s power to destroy or create Departments by Lord Chancellor acknowledged when he mentioned subjecting it to parliamentary approval? Where in the that judicial appointments would be best left as they Bill is the power for the introduction of annual debates stood because the system had been changed only a in the House of Commons on all Departments’ plans couple of years ago. and objectives? We have heard from both sides of the However, there is a deeper issue than that in judicial House the desire to introduce greater scrutiny of the appointments: how the current system is working. Only Government, particularly through the legislature, but recently, we have seen substantial changes, with the we see in the Bill very little attempt to bring that about. Constitutional Reform Act 2005, which introduced a Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman new Supreme Court and established the Judicial is talking about scrutiny of the Government. Does he Appointments Commission. We then had the Tribunals, share my concern that scrutiny is moving further away Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, which made changes from Parliament, through the creation of quangos, to the eligibility criteria. Now we see another, more which are growing like Topsy, employing more and symbolic change, in clause 35, with the Prime Minister more people, spending more and more public money being removed from the process of appointment to the and circumventing the normal democratic routes and judiciary in England and Wales. controls? I know that he, like me, wants smaller government. However, there is still a fundamental problem at the Does he think that the Bill misses an opportunity in not heart of judicial appointments: the backlog that has setting targets to reduce the number of quangos and the developed in the appointment of judges and recorders amount that the chairmen and boards of directors of in particular. We know that there is a shortage of judges quangos can be paid—for instance, to the maximum of in our courts, particularly in the family division. I an MP’s salary, which I think is a perfectly good salary? declare an interest as a non-practising barrister at the Would he agree with such a move? Would he like to family bar. It is clear that we are short of good, well-qualified debate that during consideration of the Bill? family judges, but we are also just short of family judges. The slowness of the process has dragged things Mr. Timpson: I could not agree more on the proliferation out to the point where a lot of extremely high-calibre of quangos, and also on the control that they exert and candidates are waiting to go through the selection process the lack of transparency within them. The point was to be appointed to the bench. If things are not brought made earlier that there are now so many quangos that forward, they may feel frustrated and we would miss they have to share the same acronyms. We need to look out on their great service. at where power lies. We need to ensure that the public not only have confidence in where power lies, but have Mr. Straw: I should like to say two things to the hon. trust in those who hold that power. With the current Gentleman about the judicial appointments process, system of quangos, which is prevalent in many areas one of which I should perhaps have said earlier. Although and particularly in education, not only is it impossible there have been criticisms, which I have echoed, about to hold the Government to account, but where quangos the process and about the lack of diversity, I think that are seen to be at fault the Government can say that they everyone accepts that the quality of the selected candidates are arm’s-length bodies and absolve themselves of all is as high as it ever was. That is of critical importance. responsibility. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman obviously has experience We heard from my hon. and learned Friend the of the family Bar, and if he has reasonably good Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) about the 12 areas evidence—it does not have to be cast-iron evidence—of of power that the Government were looking to shift. He delays or of how the system has operated unacceptably could name only two—bishops and quangos—that had or been disruptive in the way that he has suggested, I been affected and suggested that in fact the figure was would be pleased to hear from him. The chair of the perhaps only one and a half or one and a quarter, the Judicial Appointments Commission, Usha Prashar, is half or quarter being the quangos. I would go further concerned—as are the Lord Chief Justice and I—to and say that the figure is just one, because the Bill does ensure that, even though the system has certain delays not deal with the power that quangos still hold or with built in, we must make it work as swiftly as possible to our being able to hold them to account. My experience avoid all the frustrations to which the hon. Gentleman on the Children, Schools and Families Committee is an has referred. illustration of exactly how the Executive are still trying to hold close to their chest the power that we know Mr. Timpson: I would be very happy to write to the should be much more readily accessible to us as both Lord Chancellor with a specific example from two of members of the public and Members of this House. the circuits on which I have practised in the recent past. 857 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 858 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Timpson] of a stand-alone Bill, so that when we look back through the legislation, we have something to hang our hat on I would add that we have recently seen a 47 per cent. and say, “That was the Act that set in stone the statutory increase in the number of care applications to the footing of the civil service.” It should be enshrined in family courts, and that that is putting additional pressure that way. We will have to make do, however, with what on the system. We need to be able to make the appointments we have got. when necessary on a regular basis, as well as to predict The Bill is modest and could have gone so much any rush of applications that would necessitate greater further. Indeed, the Justice Committee itself deemed it judicial input. That would ensure that we were able to a disappointment in not going further. We have heard remain ahead of the curve, rather than simply reacting from many Members this evening about the opportunities to the situation, as is often the case in the courts system. that the Bill has missed. There remains concern that it I will be happy to write to the right hon. Gentleman on will still be hard to get all its provisions on to the statute that issue. book, but that should not stop us from trying to get It is important that we have judges who demonstrate some important measures through. I hope that we can diversity, high quality and, of course, independence. I develop some of these arguments further in Committee. therefore welcome the review of judicial appointments I join the Lord Chancellor in looking forward to the to ensure that we have as robust a system as possible, to untimed Report stage, which I know he has committed give us not only the best candidates but enough candidates himself to—[Interruption.] I hope that it will give us to keep the judicial system running as efficiently as enough time to debate some of the wider measures possible. discussed this evening more fully on the Floor of the There are small measures in the Bill with which I House. certainly do not disagree. They will provide a practical message in regard to what has been happening in reality 8.36 pm and to the appointment of the judiciary through the Lord Chancellor’s services, as it will now be, as opposed Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I rise to cover two to through the Prime Minister. In many respects, I am aspects of this subject—one included in the Bill and one more interested in the review that is now taking place to not. Let me start with part 7, which deals with arrangements ensure that the system works as efficiently as possible. surrounding the Comptroller and Auditor General. I I also want to touch on part 1 of the Bill, which for had the pleasure and privilege of serving on the Public the first time will put the civil service on a statutory Accounts Committee for two years, so I have some footing. Some might say that we have waited quite some familiarity with the splendid work undertaken by the time for this measure—since 1854, in fact. I put it to the Comptroller and Auditor General and by the National Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the right hon. Audit Office, which supports him. I believe it is appropriate Member for North Swindon (Mr. Wills), that it is such for this Bill to cover some of the arrangements for the a symbolic change, as well as a fundamental one, that it hiring and firing—if that is the right way to put it—of is surprising that it was meshed with other measures the Comptroller and Auditor General, so I welcome rather than put in its own, stand-alone civil service Bill. part 7. We should have had a separate Bill, but if the provisions Needless to say, the Bill appears to have missed one are here in this one, they should be supported. They or two aspects, which the Lord Chancellor, who I see in enshrine the core values of the civil service, and will go his place, may be able to pick up in case I have misinterpreted some way towards protecting its independence. the clauses that relate to my concerns. The first is the The provisions leave the door open on the issue of appointment itself. Clause 37 covers eight aspects of the retribution towards whistleblowers in the civil service, office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and however. That issue was touched on earlier, and I hope subsection (7) states that the that we will be able to discuss it in Committee, to “person appointed holds the office for ten years.” determine whether the right protections and independence It is entirely appropriate to have a time limit on the are available to all members of the civil service, particularly appointment, because, although I am not casting aspersions when those actions are taking place. The provisions are on previous incumbents, it became apparent that there an important part of the Bill and, although I would was no time limit only when Sir John Bourn reached an have liked to see a stand-alone civil service Bill, I age when people were starting to wonder whether there welcome the fact that the Government have moved was an appropriate point for him to retire; he decided forward in this way. to do so when he was, I think, 74. Having a 10-year appointment is thus entirely appropriate. The question Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): Does the hon. it gives rise to is: in what circumstances should an Gentleman agree that most civil servants are absolutely incumbent retire? delighted that this is finally happening? Does he not Provision is made for the incumbent to offer his own wholeheartedly welcome the fact that, although it has resignation, and Her Majesty, through an address from taken many Governments and a long time to reach this both Houses of Parliament, can also accept his removal spot, we have finally reached it? and replacement by somebody else, but there is also a third eventuality, which the Bill does not address. That Mr. Timpson: As I have said, it is an extremely is that, if the incumbent reaches a certain age and important part of the Bill. The provision is long overdue, becomes infirm, soundness of mind might become an but I agree with the hon. Lady that putting the civil issue—perhaps not to the incumbent, but to those who service on a statutory footing represents an extremely have to work with him or her. I have found no provision important step forward for civil servants. My point was in the Bill for that to be taken into account with regard that because of its importance it should have the status to a figure of such seniority within the accountability 859 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 860 Governance Bill Governance Bill structure of the civil service and Government of this have been a bit hasty in leaping to his feet to deny that country. If the Lord Chancellor has any inspiration there were many people in that category, and to appear while I am speaking, or perhaps later, during the wind-up to deny that many other countries had more restricted speeches, he might like to address that point. arrangements than ours. The second issue I want to deal with relates to In the Minister’s defence, I accept that it is hard to get clause 38(8). a handle on the numbers. The Foreign Office will reply to parliamentary questions, as it has from time to time. Mr. Wills: If the hon. Gentleman looks at clause 41, I believe that it produces an annual estimate of the which is headed “Resignation or removal of the Comptroller number of British citizens who live overseas, and it is and Auditor General”, it might set his mind at rest. It around 13 million. states: “Her Majesty may remove from office the person who is the Mr. Wills: I am sorry if I have misunderstood the Comptroller and Auditor General on an address of both Houses hon. Gentleman. Is he referring to people who are not of Parliament.” on the electoral register because they have lived overseas That is an accepted procedure that also applies to other for a certain period—which, under the existing provisions, senior posts, so I hope that it provides the hon. Gentleman renders them ineligible to be on the register—or is he with some reassurance. referring to people who have a right to be on the register because they have not been expatriates for the period concerned, but the registration process has not caught Mr. Dunne: I have read that clause, and I referred to it up with them for some reason, and we have not been earlier, but if the Minister is telling me that that is the diligent enough in some respects? Which of those is the form of words used for dealing with the eventuality that burden of his accusation, or is it both? If he can clarify I identified, I take some reassurance from what he has what he has said, I shall be happy to give him as much said. reassurance as I can when I wind up the debate. The Minister may well be able to help me with my second concern, too. As I was saying, it relates to Mr. Dunne: I am grateful to the Minister, who is clause 38(8)(b)(iv), which requires being very fair in trying to get to the bottom of my “the National Audit Office to monitor the carrying out of the concern. The short answer is that both categories exist, Comptroller and Auditor General’s functions”. and in fact there is a third, with which I shall deal later. Unless the Bill envisages a change in the relationship At the moment, I am focusing on those who are already between the Comptroller and Auditor General and the disfranchised as a result of decisions made in the House. National Audit Office, what the clause suggests is that the National Audit Office—of which the Comptroller David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): and Auditor General is, in effect, the chief executive—should I may be about to repeat remarks I made in the previous be the body to monitor the effectiveness of its own chief debate to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, but I executive. That seems to me to set up a relationship that do not accept the 13 million figure. That seems to me to could give rise to conflict and confusion. In most be enormous, and probably includes the £10-passage organisations an entity other than the chief executive people from the 1950s. The number of ex-pats registered monitors the chief executive’s performance, and that in a typical constituency is pitifully low, and of those entity is normally the board or governors of an organisation who are registered the number who use their vote is rather than the body of which he is chief executive. lower still, so what is the point of this? Again, I may be missing something, but I invite the Minister to respond to that concern as well. Mr. Dunne: I completely agree on both counts. The The third aspect of the relationship about which I number of people who participate in our elections from feel some concern appears in clause 38(8)(b)(vi), whereby overseas is pitifully low, but there are reasons for that, the National Audit Office and the Comptroller and and they are built into the system we as a House have Auditor General are charged with developing a code of devised for allowing such participation. I shall come on practice that deals with their relationship. Here we have to that. the National Audit Office monitoring its own chief The 13 million figure includes some 3 to 4 million of executive, and having to agree with that chief executive British national overseas passport holders who received the code of practice according to which it would undertake their passports at the time when the Hong Kong colony its monitoring role. The provision seems to me to have was handed back to China, so they can be struck out of been ill thought through, and I hope that either the the 13 million. That gets us to a figure somewhere under Minister will explain what it means this evening, or an 10 million. That figure is made up of estimates provided explanation can be given in Committee. by each of our principal missions overseas as to how I am also concerned about omissions from the Bill many British citizens are resident in the countries where that relate to British citizens living overseas. Two particular they are based. categories concern me. The first consists of those who are already disenfranchised by our present arrangements Mr. Wills: This is an important point, and the hon. for participation in general elections in this country. Gentleman will know from previous exchanges and Those who have lived overseas for more than 15 years correspondence with him and other Members that the are disfranchised, as the Minister mentioned when he Government take it extremely seriously. Every step we appeared to be provoked by my intervention on the have taken in terms of electoral administration has hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) to point been to make sure the register is as comprehensive and out that the issue had been discussed in the Chamber accurate as possible. Registration is key to that, including before. Indeed it has, but I think that the Minister may the registration of British citizens, wherever in the world 861 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 862 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Wills] Mr. Dunne: The arguments took place before I was a Member of this House. I have, of course, read some of they are, who are eligible to vote, subject to the statutes the debates, but I do not think it would be right for me of this House. As that is crucial, will the hon. Gentleman to rehearse all those arguments, because they range over be clear about these figures, because they are huge? As a large number of topics. I should say that one of the my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire main arguments used was that once people have left this (David Taylor) has said, they are very significant figures, country, they no longer pay tax here. That is not true; a and I hope the hon. Gentleman will agree that the large number of expatriates continue to pay tax in this methodology is also very important. I would therefore country—for example, tax on their pensions or tax on be very grateful if he would let the House know exactly property that they may have here. A large number of what question he asked of those missions and exactly these people also have family connections here; even if what the reply was, as well as what methodology they they themselves have severed their links with this country, used to reach their estimates, and whether it was the their families may well be educated here. same for each mission. Mr. Francis Maude (Horsham) (Con): The Minister Mr. Dunne: I will be very happy to provide the asks my hon. Friend what the arguments were when the Minister with the specific Hansard references for the House decided this. The Minister talks as if the House parliamentary questions that were asked, but I do not took a wholly free decision to reduce the period from have that information to hand at present. When he 20 to 15 years. That is not how I recollect it; the looks through his files and I provide him with the Government produced a proposal and, as they had a answer to his question, I am sure he will find that these majority in this House that was well into three figures, estimates are made by foreign missions and given on an they drove it through. There was no suggestion that annual basis to the Foreign Office, which supplies the there was a free, independent and wholly uninhibited figures. debate on the subject. These are not the numbers of people who are eligible; I completely accept that. They are the figures for the Mr. Dunne: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for overall quantum of British citizens estimated to be that comment. He has the benefit of having participated resident overseas at any one time. That includes both in those debates, whereas I do not. To develop my the currently enfranchised and those who have lived theme a little further, may I say that not only are the overseas for more than 15 years and who are therefore vast majority of EU countries much more liberal concerning by current rules disfranchised. It is of concern to me the rights of their citizens to participate in their national that that large category of an indeterminate number of elections—in essence, once a French citizen always a people—I think we can all agree that many of the French citizen, and once a German citizen, always a foreign missions do not know how many people are German citizen, and, as such, those citizens are allowed resident overseas, but that they estimate the figure—is to vote in their elections—but so, too, are other members currently disfranchised from participating in domestic of the OECD. The only country, aside from those that I general elections or by-elections to this place. They are have mentioned, to have more restrictive voting rights also, in most cases, disfranchised from voting in the than this country is South Korea, and it has a particular national elections where they happen to live, so they are, reason for that. in effect, electorally non-existent. That seems to me to be fundamentally unfair, unjust and not in accordance Mr. Straw: Let me take the hon. Gentleman back to with the principles of democracy that this House likes the point that my hon. Friend the Member for North-West to uphold. It is a great shame that that issue has not Leicestershire (David Taylor) raised with him. Since been addressed in the Bill. this arrangement for overseas voting was first introduced— The Minister said that many other countries have in, as I recall, the Representation of the People Act restrictions similar to ours in respect of the point of 1983—[Interruption.] Hon. Members say that that was enfranchisement. I accept that the current rule is that if done by consensus. I cannot remember what the final someone spends 15 years away they lose their right to vote was, but I do recall some intense arguments in this vote. However, from answers to parliamentary questions House. This was at the high point of Baroness Thatcher’s and research I have conducted, I have found that not Administration and Labour Members were concerned—I many other countries have voting rights more restrictive make this point in a serious way—that along with the than ours. Within the European Union, I believe there fiddling of unemployment statistics and much else besides, are three: Malta, Cyprus and Denmark—and it is an effort was being made to fiddle the franchise. I shall questionable whether Ireland has more restrictive rights return to the point very quickly, Mr. Deputy Speaker. than ours. That is a very small number of countries that In the event, the surprise for Members on both sides of provide a shorter period for which their nationals can the House has been—this applies to those who have continue to vote in their home country. been resident abroad for only three or four years, let alone 15 years—how few people have bothered to use Mr. Wills: The hon. Gentleman is making an important this right. The proportion is far fewer than the 65 to point. I wonder whether he would remind the House 70 per cent. who turn out from a UK base. that it has examined this issue on several occasions. He will be aware, from his careful research, that the House Mr. Dunne: I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for decided to vary the period after which expatriates are making that point, because it takes me on to the second no longer eligible for registration. Will he remind the category that I wanted to discuss, which comprises House of the arguments used to reach the current limit? 2.5 million people who we believe are eligible to vote; Will he give his own assessment of the arguments made the Foreign Office believes this and I accept its figures, at that time? although they are still estimates. I am talking about the 863 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 864 Governance Bill Governance Bill British expatriates who have lived abroad for less than Minister suggested that I might be heading towards, we 15 years. As he correctly says, a small proportion of that would have to knock on the doors not just of expatriates number participate in elections in this country, so I will but of everybody who happens to live abroad. We do return to the relevant question that was posed by the not know where they live. The Foreign Office missions hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire. The reason do not keep a full register of British expatriates resident why very few of those people participate is because we in their country. Every ambassador to whom I have make it almost impossible for their vote to count. At the spoken on this subject—I have touched on it with a previous general election, in 2005, 17,000 British expatriates number of them—says, “If only we could have a system participated; I believe that that was more or less the whereby we could identify where expatriates live.” They number who were registered, so the turnout among would like to have access to such a system so that they those who had bothered to register was quite high. could fulfil some of their statutory duties in the event of Today—as at the last time of calculation—there are an emergency, or whatever. only 14,000 such people, as evidenced by a response to We require our citizens overseas to register annually. a parliamentary question. Only 14,000 people, out of Citizens within the country are, as the Minister has 2.5 million, are registered. We have to ask ourselves suggested, sent an annual reminder of who is on the why. The Lord Chancellor and his colleagues will say register for their property, but those who are resident that it is because they have no interest—they have left overseas are not sent a reminder. If they do not bother the country, they cannot be bothered and they are no to register or if they are not prompted to do so by some longer engaged with the political process in this country. diary note that tells them that their registration will fall It is possible that a proportion of the 2.5 million feel due, they fall off the register. That is a major inhibitor that way, and that that proportion is similar to the to people remaining on the register. People have to proportion of the domestic population who, regrettably, register every year, whereas many other countries have feel sufficiently apathetic about our election process registration that lasts for the duration of their Parliament and politics in this place not to participate in voting. or for a fixed period of time. Some countries have Let me explain one or two of the practical difficulties 10-year registration; I think that that would be innovative of participating in a general election in this country for and would deal with the problem. those who happen to live abroad. The second practical problem for expatriates is that they have to have their identity confirmed on the registration Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Does my hon. form by another British citizen who is also on the Friend not agree that if one is living abroad, one feels a register. As we know from our earlier discussions, only sort of disengagement and feels isolated from realpolitik 14,000 such people live overseas. Many people who in the UK? Despite the fact that so many people have might like to vote while living overseas cannot, because Sky boxes—they are illegal, I might add—in Spain and they cannot find anybody who meets the criteria and is elsewhere, they cannot feel involved and do not feel the eligible to certify that they are who they say they are. need to get involved in a general election. The Government put forward a consultation on Mr. Dunne: As I was saying earlier—and as my hon. individual voter registration that was due to be published Friend will have heard—I think that there is a case for last June. We have not heard the results yet, so the saying that some of our citizens abroad feel disengaged. debate has been moved not one step further. The fact However, I am not seeking to address that audience—I that the Bill says nothing about voter registration is am seeking to point out to the Minister that the deficiency another deficiency, and a missed opportunity. of this Bill is that it does not address the practical steps Expatriates have the benefit of a very clear identifier. that could be taken by anybody who wants to encourage I am not allowed to use audiovisual props in the Chamber, those who have the right to vote from overseas to do so. but I am holding British passport in my right hand. It has a single-number identifier, and allowing expatriates Mr. Wills: The hon. Gentleman has been very generous to verify that they are British by use of their passport in giving way, and I appreciate it. He raises an important number would overcome the problem of identity point, which is difficult and complex. He is probably confirmation. I accept that there are some data protection aware that 3 million to 3.5 million people in this country issues, but unfortunately the Government have chosen are eligible to vote but are not on the register. There are not to go down that route, even though it would make it all sorts of problems with that, and it is enormously easier for people to register and therefore to vote. difficult. Most electoral registration officers are very I have tried the patience of the House and Ministers diligent in trying to get everybody who is eligible on to perhaps a little too long this evening, so I shall end by the register. We have laid duties on them and given them saying that people abroad who register to vote have to new powers, more or less with the support of the whole do so remotely. Most do so by post, which works well in House. Those duties include sending out regular canvass the UK. Participation in postal voting by citizens resident forms and making house-to-house visits. If we are to here is rising each year, and I welcome that. believe the Leader of the Opposition, we live in an age of austerity. I hope that the hon. Gentleman—perhaps Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My hon. he can confirm this—is not suggesting house-to-house Friend has not touched on the question of registration visits for the 2.5 million expatriates to whom he has by service personnel overseas. At the last election, whole referred. swathes of them were denied the right to vote. Does this Bill do anything to rectify that? Mr. Dunne: I am certainly not, but I am very glad that the Minister raises that point. One challenge for any Mr. Dunne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Administration, and for any individual electoral registration referring to armed services personnel. The Government, officer, is identifying where the people who are eligible with the Ministry of Defence and service chiefs, have to vote live. Were we to follow the practice that the taken steps to increase significantly awareness of voting 865 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 866 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Dunne] about constitutional reform, most notably in respect of devolution. When they came to power in 1997, one of among armed forces personnel overseas, but there is no the first things that I as a Welsh Member was involved doubt that operational risks are involved. We have all with was bringing devolution to Scotland and to Wales. heard the rumours that British Forces Postal Services in I remember feeling that it was an exciting occasion, theatre are at risk of being closed down for security notable for the fact that the Government were devolving reasons. That would mean that members of our forces power away from the central state. I was pleased to be currently serving in Afghanistan might well be denied a here and to be part of that process. vote if a general election were to take place very soon. As the Chairman of the Justice Committee said, it That would obviously be a tragedy; if possible, our was easier to take that process forward in Scotland than servicemen and women should not be deprived of the in Wales, because in Wales there was less history of opportunity to vote. different bodies working together. There was strong My point about postal votes for people overseas has support for devolution in Scotland, whereas in Wales to do with the date by which candidates are able to people had to be convinced before they would agree to withdraw their nominations from the ballot. That date it. Since then, there has been much greater acceptance is so close to the day of the election that ballot papers of devolution and a greater feeling that this is the right cannot be printed—and therefore posted overseas—until way for Wales to go. 11 days before the ballot. The result is that ballot papers Devolution has now been accepted in Wales, and a arrive overseas approximately one week before polling. convention is in place and looking at future powers for Many people cannot be certain, therefore, that their the Welsh Assembly. There is nothing in the Bill that ballot papers will get back to the relevant constituency further extends powers to Wales, but I would like the in time to be counted, even if they sign them and put Government to agree to a referendum on further powers them back in the post on the same day that they receive if that is requested by the Assembly in future. The them. progress of devolution in Wales has been steady and is David Taylor: The hon. Gentleman is talking about moving to the point where the people of Wales want the alleged difficulties of registration. However, my more power over their own affairs. Although there is registration authority is one of many to register voters nothing in the Bill to take that further, I see it as a by text or , so that is not a problem. Secondly, on further step in constitutional reform. the question of returning ballot papers, the fact that expats retain strong links with this country means that Mr. Bone: The hon. Lady is making a powerful point they will undoubtedly know people in the constituency about a missed opportunity. The Bill could have dealt where they are registered whom they can trust to cast a with referendums, including one on increased powers proxy vote. for the Welsh Assembly. Could it not also have included Mr. Dunne: I agree with the first part of what the a right to a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, for example, hon. Gentleman said, in that it would help if expats or on the European Union? could register using modern technology. However, they are not allowed to, as they have to complete the form. Julie Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his My understanding is that the Electoral Commission intervention. I would have liked the Bill to include does not allow electoral registration officers to accept provision for a referendum for Wales. registration from overseas by electronic means, because I shall deal briefly with two parts of the Bill, the first it is not satisfied with the present security arrangements. of which is reform of the House of Lords. Most parties The technology is there, but it is not yet being used. in this Chamber support a wholly or almost entirely On the hon. Gentleman’s second point, the evidence elected House of Lords. The measures in the Bill which suggests that after five or 10 years, many people who relate to the House of Lords are another step in that move abroad may not have family or friends in the area direction. It is good that there will be an opportunity they left. For instance, 18 or 19-year olds who go for Members of the House of Lords to resign their abroad to university may decide to stay overseas; although seats. Some Members of the House of Lords were they might have been eligible to vote as teenagers, they called the people’s peers. The history of their attendance no longer have people they can call on to exercise their and their involvement in the House of Lords suggests vote for them. that some of them do not show a great deal of commitment However, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that a to that House. They should have the opportunity to proxy vote is the only way that expat citizens overseas resign their seats. There are notable exceptions—in can be certain that their vote counts. Asking people to particular, Baroness Finlay of Llandaff, a close neighbour participate only by way of proxy invites them, in effect, of mine in Cardiff, who has been an outstanding Member to give away their vote. That is a difficult thing to ask of the House of Lords and an outstanding people’s people to do remotely. peer. Others have also made huge contributions, but I conclude by regretting that the Bill does nothing to recent research shows a huge variation in that group’s ease the participation of eligible voters or to facilitate attendance, and there should be an opportunity for voting for many British citizens who are disfranchised some to leave. Many such peers would probably like to at present. That is a great shortcoming and failure of leave, so the provision’s inclusion in the Bill is a good fairness in the Bill. thing. The Prime Minister can appoint someone to the 9.5 pm House of Lords to take up a ministerial appointment. It Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): I am pleased to happens frequently and has always happened under all welcome the Bill as a further stage in constitutional Prime Ministers, but there is an issue if that Minister reform. This Government have a great record in bringing resigns after a certain period but is left with a peerage 867 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 868 Governance Bill Governance Bill and a seat in the House of Lords indefinitely. That made by the Prime Minister at the inception of his should be looked at. Many people who were appointed premiership about how he was going to bring about a in that way were brought in because of their expertise, great constitutional renewal: he talked about a new and they have a lot to contribute, but they may not want settlement using very fine, splendid and high-sounding to take on the role of a Back-Bench peer, so the opportunity phrases. We have been through several iterations of for them to resign will, again, be a very good thing. draft Bills, White Papers and Green Papers along the Getting rid of the remaining hereditary peers is another way. As my hon. and learned Friend said, the mountain step towards a wholly or almost wholly elected House laboured and brought forth a mouse—not a ridiculous of Lords, and I hope that that measure will be in all mouse, as the phrase generally has it, but a rag-bag in parties’ manifestos at the next general election. It has terms of constitutional reform. To adapt the phrase, it taken a long time to reform the House of Lords, but is a modest little Bill with much to be modest about. there is one big block on any reform: the legislation has We warmly welcome the civil service parts of the Bill, to go through the House of Lords itself. Reform has which are my principal concern. This legislation has taken longer than many of us would have wished, but been talked about for a very long time; I think that the we have moved further down the road. commitment was made by John Major’s Government in I turn now to the issue of the Prime Minister’s ability the late 1990s. It has been a long time in gestation, and to appoint people to the House of Lords as Ministers, here it is, given birth to at long last. We hope that it can and whether those Ministers should have to be Members come into effect shortly. of either House. Is there a case for the Prime Minister It is interesting how much of the debate was not being able to appoint people who do not have to be about what is in the Bill, but what is not in it. The hon. Members of either House, but who could come to the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), in a typically House of Commons to account for their actions? It is intelligent, temperate and thoughtful speech—he was unsatisfactory that Secretaries of State who sit in the very unpartisan in his approach, as we have come to House of Lords cannot come here to answer to us in the expect—talked persuasively about the need to adopt a House of Commons, so certain things need to be looked holistic approach as regards constitutional reform. He at and there should be further change. referred to the dangers of making piecemeal changes I made it clear in an intervention that I welcome the without giving sufficient thought to the ramifications of Bill’s civil service provision. We have been waiting for a change and the interaction of different parts of our stand-alone civil service Act for some time, and the mysterious constitution, and the need to be looking at inclusion of the provision is a good thing. I particularly these changes in the round. We would all agree with welcome the establishment of the Civil Service Commission that. We look forward with keen anticipation to the ex and the requirement for appointments to the civil service cathedra pronouncements from the Public Administration to be open to competition and made on merit. It has Committee, which he chairs, on the role of the House of become more customary in the civil service to advertise Commons and its relationship with the Government. appointments externally, and more customary for people The hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) from the wider community to be able to apply. However, was another who talked about what the Bill lacks. As that is certainly not true of all appointments, and it is one would expect, he spoke about the need for electoral difficult to obtain a civil service that is representative of reform; we did not agree with him, but he made his case the population if many appointments depend on internal and we listened respectfully. He also talked about the civil service recruitment. The range of women and hole in the Bill that might have been filled by provisions people from black and minority ethnic communities in on party funding. The need for such provisions persists the civil service has improved in recent years. However, as strongly today as it did when the Hayden Phillips there is no doubt that the requirement that jobs should discussions were embarked upon three and a half years be openly advertised and open to competition, and ago, when Tony Blair committed the Labour party to specific efforts made to reach groups that are less well being willing to make the profound changes needed to represented, is bound to improve the situation in the tackle the abuse of union funding, which has made it civil service by making it more representative of the difficult to make serious progress on party funding country as a whole. reform in the mean time. I welcome the Bill as another step in the constitutional I am sorry that I missed nearly all the speech of my reform that this Government have done so well on—it hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Mr. Carswell), will take us further along that track. but I suspect that he talked about the case he has eloquently been making for recall provisions for Members of Parliament. They may not always be comfortable 9.15 pm with such provisions, but he is right to make the case Mr. Francis Maude (Horsham) (Con): It is a pleasure for them. to speak at the perhaps somewhat premature end of this There has been a certain amount of discussion about debate, which has been reassuring to some extent but the provisions on House of Lords reform. The Lord also slightly depressing. It has been reassuring because Chancellor’s defence of the proposals was interesting. I debates on Bills of this sort bring out the best in the do not believe that anyone would claim that the current House, in many ways, and the tone has been reflective, arrangements are in any way what we would want to thoughtful and serious in addressing very important start with. No one would design the system to look as it issues; but depressing because it has been poorly attended, currently does. It is a vestige, a residue, of the unfinished especially by Labour Members, and because so much of reform of the second Chamber embarked upon by the it has been about what is not in the Bill, not what is in it. Government 11 or 12 years ago. That reflects what my hon. and learned Friend the The point is that the system was deliberately left as Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said at the outset an untidy remnant, as an earnest of the intention to when he rightly dilated on the grandiloquent claims pursue full reform. It was meant to be an irritant, and it 869 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 870 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Francis Maude] tax credits scheme. It is now well attested that officials in the Treasury and the Inland Revenue advised very was deliberately and explicitly left in place as such by strongly that his proposal could not be administered the then Lord Chancellor, Lord Irvine, to hold the without risk of fraud, and almost more importantly, of Government’s feet to the fire and ultimately make them very serious error. He persisted and said, “I don’t care. deliver reform of the House of Lords. Parliament is This is my policy. You’re the civil servants, you go and entitled to treat it as a breach of good faith for the deliver it.” He ignored the advice. The result was a Government now to come along, without any justification system that has caused immense distress and human or any serious case for the steps taken in the Bill being misery to hundreds of thousands of hard-working people necessary, and remove the impetus on a Government to on low incomes, who suddenly found themselves persist in pursuing long-term reform. The House is traumatised—that is not an exaggeration—when they entitled to resent that. received demands from the Revenue to repay several I wish to say a little about part 1 of the Bill, which thousand pounds in overpaid tax credits. deals with the civil service and is effectively the first half Those hard-working people had done their best to do of the Bill. We welcome it, and it is long overdue. The the right thing. That episode was the result of a system that has existed for so long—a civil service that Minister—an arrogant Minister, I would say—not listening is independent and impartial, and to which an incoming to the advice that he was given by civil servants, who Government cannot make wholesale, sweeping changes were not being political but were simply giving impartial in personnel—is a great strength of this country. There advice about the effects of implementing a particular has been a debate going on throughout my political policy in a particular way. lifetime, and I suspect for a long time before, about whether we should change that and introduce scope for Michael Fabricant: Does my right hon. Friend not much more appointment, along the lines of the American illustrate the difficult balance that Ministers must strike? system. There, the senior echelons are removed and They quite rightly want to drive through Government appointed by an incoming Administration. We do not policy, but at the same time they must listen to civil believe that we should do that, because the system is servants’ impartial advice and to special advisers, who capable of being made to work extremely well. quite rightly will have the ideology of their party in We are pleased that the Bill will entrench the duty of mind, but not perhaps the practicality of implementation. impartiality, and we accept and support the case that That is why it is important that Ministers have the has been made that the existence of special advisers, ability to make good judgments, which is difficult when who are now desirably to be controlled by a code they are given such contradictory advice. protected by statute, provides civil servants with a protection against their impartiality being eroded by Ministers. Mr. Maude: My hon. Friend makes a good point. On However, if we are to put into statute an obligation on the tax credits episode, the special adviser in the Treasury, civil servants to be impartial, there should ideally be a who was notoriously the intermediary between the symmetrical requirement on Ministers to respect that Chancellor and Treasury officials, is now Secretary of impartiality. State for Children, Schools and Families. He was described There were ripples of unease at the weekend when on the radio yesterday by his hon. Friend—that may be The Sunday Times reported that Lord Mandelson had the wrong way to put it—the Member for Huddersfield sent a letter around Whitehall that appeared—I would (Mr. Sheerman) as a “bit of a bully”. When pushed, he always want to give the noble Lord the benefit of the said, “Well, actually, he is a bully”, not being inclined to doubt—to suggest that he was urging the civil servants wrap things up. That sort of arrogant approach is, “No, who form the Government’s communications operation we know best, don’t bother us with these pettifogging to deploy what are effectively Labour party slogans in details about how to implement this, just go and do it.” the sensitive period in the run-up to a general election. The consequence has been a lot of misery for many That would risk abusing civil service impartiality and it hard-working people and families on low incomes. is right that the head of the civil service should treat The hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) very seriously any attempt to erode it. Governments will referred to the article that appeared in The Times on always test those boundaries—that is kind of in the Friday, which seemed to suggest, in a rather hysterical nature of things—but it is important that the Cabinet way, that we had secret plans—even though I had Secretary, who is the head of the civil service, is robust announced them, admittedly in the obscurity of the in resisting it. If the Bill goes through before the general Conservative party conference, 10 days previously—that election, as we hope it will, there will be some statutory amounted to a politicisation of the civil service. That is reinforcement of his role in protecting that impartiality. absolutely not what our proposals would involve. I was It is important that we understand what is meant by heartened to say that the report of what I was apparently this concept of impartiality. It obviously does not mean proposing received the endorsement of the hon. Member independence in the sense of civil servants being empowered for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson), a notable blogger, to do what on earth they like. The obligation of impartiality who published in his blog on Friday a post headlined, is to deliver what the lawful Government of the day “In praise of Francis Maude”. I found that most lawfully set out as their policies. It is important that encouraging—these days one welcomes praise and support Ministers listen to officials’ advice. They should seek it from wherever they come. The hon. Gentleman is in a confidently, and be willing to challenge and interrogate position to know as he was until recently a Minister in it. They are not obliged to take it, but they should the Cabinet Office with responsibility for civil service always seek it and hear it. matters. I recently spoke about the episode in the life of this It is important to stress that we are not talking about Government when the Prime Minister, when he was giving Ministers the uninhibited right to hire and fire Chancellor of the Exchequer, sought to introduce his civil servants. That would be in conflict with the provisions 871 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 872 Governance Bill Governance Bill and protections that will rightly be put in place by the the taxpayers’ scarce pounds are translated into the best Bill, but Ministers who are rightly accountable to this possible public service. It would be a great wasted House for the conduct of their Departments must have opportunity, therefore, not to recruit to those boards the ability to ensure that their policies are delivered. people who are used to driving change through big This is not about hiring and firing officials, but about private sector organisations. At the moment, to a limited building on a broadly beneficial innovation that this extent, that happens, but it could be much enhanced. Government introduced—the departmental boards. These This has been an interesting, reflective and thoughtful did not exist when the Conservatives were last in debate. We are concerned about parts of the Bill, but government, and have since been introduced by this are keen for it to make progress. We support it, therefore, Government. It is a pity, however, if—as in most cases— but with some exceptions. these boards are attended only by officials. Some are or have been chaired by Ministers, and we think that that 9.36 pm is the right approach, because by bringing together politicians and officials they provide an opportunity to The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael create a genuine collective leadership that can be really Wills): We have heard many serious and thoughtful powerful in giving direction, purpose and energy to a speeches that have treated our constitutional affairs Department. The boards have non-executive members, with the dignity and respect that they deserve. The right but at present some 90 per cent. of departmental and hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Maude) made such a public sector board members come from a public sector speech. I was particularly interested in his comments background. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is about the civil service, most of which we on the Labour a missed opportunity to bring in non-executive board Benches agree with. Sadly, the speech of the hon. and members with serious experience in running big commercial learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) was not organisations. Such people would be able to transfer one of those serious and thoughtful speeches—my regret their skills and experience to interrogate proposals and is sincere, because I have great respect for the hon. and check up on their implementability. learned Gentleman. I suggest to him that abuse is no We have said that, in extremis, we would expect substitute for argument, and his memory no substitute non-executive members of a departmental board to be for the facts. able to recommend to the head of the civil service and Mr. Grieve rose— the Prime Minister that a permanent secretary who was an obstacle to delivery of the Department’s objectives Mr. Wills: I shall substantiate my point. should be removed. Without such a last resort power, the proposal would be seen to be window dressing, and Mr. Grieve: Will the Minister give way? the kind of people who could deliver great benefits for the taxpayer and the users of public services by improving Mr. Wills: All right, I will. their efficiency and quality would not be attracted to make that contribution. Mr. Grieve: The Minister said earlier that I was wrong about the national anthem, but in fact I was spot Mr. Straw: I am listening to the right hon. Gentleman on. Lord Goldsmith, who was asked by the Prime with care on this issue. I have not done a statistical Minister to carry out a review of Britishness, recommended analysis, but in the Foreign Office there were two non- that we might wish to change our national anthem. In executive directors, both drawn from the private sector one clause of the review, he said that he felt that one of and both very good. I am sure that, whatever the rubric the verses from the 18th century might be regarded by said, had they thought that the permanent secretary, or the Scots as offensive. [Interruption.] Indeed, it might! indeed the Foreign Secretary, of the day was beyond the It is all there. The Minister challenged me on that point, pale—which was in fact the opposite of the case—they but I got my facts right. would have told the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Secretary. I have also seen people with wider public Mr. Wills: It was out of great respect for the hon. and sector experience who have been just as good. Surely the learned Gentleman that I tried to persuade him not to crucial point is not to take an ideological view. We need intervene on me on this point. Had he remained seated, to look at the qualities that people can bring to these he would have heard what those facts are. He said—I jobs, their independence of mind and their experience. think Hansard will bear this out—that the Prime Minister, not Lord Goldsmith, made those comments. Had the Mr. Maude: I agree with much of that, and I am hon. and learned Gentleman done a little more research delighted to have the Lord Chancellor’s endorsement in the interim, he would have discovered that Lord of our general approach. It is most heartening and Goldsmith, when he made those comments, was not a encouraging. I accept that many of the non-executive member of the Government. I ask the hon. and learned board members are independent and have lots of experience, Gentlemen to listen to what No. 10 Downing street and that their presence is very beneficial. I certainly said, because he could have found it out just as well as I would not say for a second that we should not have did before he made his speech. This is precisely what I people with a public sector background on these meant. At the time of the review, Downing street said: departmental boards or public body boards. There are “This does not reflect the Government’s views. We are proud of many benefits to be had from that. our national anthem and the traditions it represents”. This is a time of great financial constraint, however, and it will be imperative for the Government dramatically Mr. Andrew Turner: Can the right hon. Gentleman to sharpen up their financial management. That constraint explain how someone can be in favour of the words of will definitely apply, whichever party wins the next the national anthem one day, as a member of the election, and the Government will have to ensure that Government, and later be against them? 873 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 874 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Wills: I have already made the point that the hon. the appointment of judges. On the power to direct and learned Member for Beaconsfield fundamentally prosecutors in individual criminal cases, the Attorney- misrepresented what the Prime Minister said on that General has decided not to make key prosecution decisions subject. He could have checked it out, but he did not. in individual criminal cases except if the law of national Lord Goldsmith was reflecting views that were given to security requires it. Powers over the civil services are his independent commission. dealt with in the Bill. On the Executive powers to determine the rules governing entitlement to passports, David Howarth: Will the Minister give way? the Government have decided in principle that we will introduce comprehensive legislation on the procedures Mr. Wills: I know that I have a bit of time, but I want for issuing passports after an extensive consultation. to make some progress. Draft legislation will be published before that consultation.

Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): Go on! Mr. Grieve: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Wills: No, I will not give way yet. I will give way Mr. Wills: I will finish my comments on the 12 issues many times, but—[HON.MEMBERS: “You’ve only just and then I will give way, but with all due respect to the started.”] I have indeed only just started and I will give hon. and learned Gentleman, he is third in line. way many times, but I want to address a fundamental The courts already scrutinise the exercise of the royal point. We heard several times from Conservative Members, prerogative of mercy. Twelve pledges were made, and starting with the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, 12 more or less fulfilled, as the record shows. The record that the Bill was a mouse—I think that “a modest Bill” speaks for itself. is the phrase that the Conservative Whips put out and which was repeated many times. The substance— David Howarth: There is a new meaning of “more or [Interruption.] I am only reflecting what Opposition less” in there somewhere, because the provisions on the Members said. Attorney-General, for example, are not in the Bill and the document on the prerogative powers basically says, Mr. Timpson: Will the Minister give way? “It’s all fine now.” However, I want to return to the points that the right hon. Gentleman made to the hon. Mr. Wills: No, I will not give way, because I want to and learned Member for Beaconsfield about the national address the point, if I may. I will give way to the hon. anthem. He did not answer the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) and then to Gentleman’s other point, about the fundamental debate the hon. Gentleman when I have gone through this list, about the national motto. Did that debate come to any but first I would like them to listen to some facts, conclusion? I thought at one stage that the national because facts were sadly absent from the speech that the motto should be “Mustn’t grumble”. hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield gave. He spoke about 12 issues on which the Prime Minister Mr. Wills: I am saddened to see the hon. Gentleman, made pledges in July 2007. Let me run through them. who is a distinguished lawyer and an intelligent man, falling into the same trap of getting his research from The first is the power of the Executive to declare war. the Daily Mail. It has never been part of Government The draft Commons resolution on the processes for the policy to introduce a national motto. The Government deployment of armed forces has been the subject of have committed to seeing whether we should have a extensive discussion. It has been prepared and will be statement of values, and we will do so through a series presented shortly. On the power to request the Dissolution of deliberative events where the British people will of Parliament, the Modernisation Committee is conducting decide. The party that the hon. Member for Cambridge an inquiry into Dissolution and recall, and quite rightly represents is in favour of having such deliberative events so. The Government proposed to the Committee in and of a constitutional convention based on exactly the March 2008 that when the Prime Minister proposes the same deliberative principles in relation to the statement Dissolution of Parliament, he would have to have a vote of values. I shall return to this matter later, because the on that in the House before it could go ahead, so there hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield mentioned has been progress on that too. a letter of mine earlier, and I want to share it with the On the power over the recall of Parliament, the House. Modernisation Committee—the correct place for this to be considered—is also conducting an inquiry. The Several hon. Members rose— power of the Executive to ratify international treaties without a decision by Parliament is dealt with in the Mr. Wills: I shall give way first to the hon. Member Bill. On the power to make key public appointments for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr. Timpson), then to the without effective scrutiny, measures on that have hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, then to the already been introduced. Proposals on the power to hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete restrict parliamentary oversight of our intelligence services Wishart). were debated and approved in their entirety by the Commons on 17 July 2008. Proposals for an appointment Mr. Timpson: May I take the Minister back to his procedure similar to that adopted by the Commons suggestion that the term “modest Bill” had come from were also approved by the Lords without debate on the Whips? I would like him to reconsider his position 13 November 2008. on that. He is welcome to look at my notes, which are in On the power to choose bishops, the Government my own handwriting, and which contain the word have removed the Prime Minister from the process. “modest”. On this occasion, I am going to take credit There are proposals in the Bill on the power exercised in for that description, rather than the Whips. 875 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 876 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Wills: Of course I accept the hon. Gentleman’s My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), word on that. It is a great tribute to him that the right who is no longer here, raised a question about the hon. Member for Horsham adopted his terminology public order provisions in the Bill, which I would like to exactly; he obviously has a great future in his party. address. He asked why certain conditions were not set out in the Bill, and I want to reassure him—I hope that Mr. Grieve: The Minister mentioned the power to he reads this in Hansard tomorrow—that schedule 4 is give directions to prosecutors. He wants to have precision very explicit about the powers that the police will have in these deliberations, and he must know that the Prime to impose conditions on demonstrations. The only Minister’s proposals were effectively watered down and additional power that the police will have around discarded as a result of the intervention of the Attorney- Parliament, above and beyond those that they will have General. To suggest that the end product amounts to in the rest of England and Wales, is the power to impose what the Prime Minister originally proposed is complete conditions on a demonstration to secure access around and total nonsense. Parliament. Clearly, there are concerns about this on both sides of the House, and I would like to say that the Mr. Wills: With all due respect to the hon. and Government have an open mind on these questions and learned Gentleman, he needs to look at what the Prime will continue to engage with the House authorities and Minister actually said, and what has actually been done. any interested Members on them. Pete Wishart: We have heard about the national We heard a characteristically serious and radical anthem and the national motto, but whatever happened contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for to Britishness day? That issue has never been addressed. Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright). I would like to take this The concept was universally popular in Scotland, and I opportunity to say that he has made a huge contribution think that the proposed date was that of the signing of to this Government’s programme of constitutional reform Magna Carta, which took place some 300 years before over the years. We have heard a lot of praise for it— not there was even a Britain. What has happened to Britishness altogether universally for this Bill, but I believe that day? every Member who has contributed to the debate has recognised that this Government have engaged over the Mr. Wills: Personally, I have always been very much past 12 years on a very serious programme of constitutional in favour of having such a day, and I would very much reform—and, as I said, my hon. Friend has played a like to see it happen. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman huge part in the reform. is obviously regretting its absence, although I am not altogether sure why he is doing so. Anyway, I would be My hon. Friend rightly pointed out that we do not happy to carry on that conversation with him. Right, have only organic change in this country, we also have does anyone else want to intervene? Not yet? Okay, very decisive radical action. He is right about that, and I do good. On we go. not think that anyone would claim that this Bill represents a decisive moment in our programme of constitutional The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield change, but that does not mean that it is not valuable or mentioned my letter to him about the deliberative events— that everything in it does not play an important part in [HON.MEMBERS: “Read it out!”] I am going to read it the continuing programme of constitutional reform. out. I think that he referred to it as “hysterical”. This is My hon. Friend rightly drew attention to the importance how it starts: of measures on freedom of information, devolution “Dear Dominic, and the independence of national statistics—and of As always it was good to talk to you yesterday,”— course I agree with him. That is true. It is always good to talk to you, Dominic— The hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) “but I am sorry you have ruled out participating in the deliberative made a serious speech. He talked about special advisers, events on a statement of values. The government’s commitment is…to an innovative deliberative process which transfers the so let me respond briefly on that subject. We should say decision-taking from government to the people.” that special advisers are already clearly governed by I then expressed regret that you were not taking part in transparent terms and conditions of employment. As this, and went on: my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor said, it is important to note that any transgressions of those “Your refusal to take part in any way speaks of nothing but your party’s unwillingness to engage constructively with the people terms are punished, but that that does not invalidate we all serve on an issue that matters deeply to them. I regret this their existence. This Government were the first to introduce and, should you wish to change your mind,”— and publish a model contract and code of conduct for I very much hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman special advisers that clearly sets out what they can and will do so— cannot do and their relationship with the permanent civil service. “you would still be very welcome to take part.” I now extend that invitation to you or to any of your We are going to table an amendment—this might be colleagues who want to take part— of particular interest to Scottish and Welsh Members—to make similar arrangements to those in place for our Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The civil service in respect of special advisers for Scotland Minister is continually using unparliamentary language. and Wales. Under the proposed amendment, the Minister for the civil service may publish separate codes of Mr. Wills: I stand corrected, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I conduct for special advisers in the Scottish Executive do apologise. I slipped from quoting from the letter into and in the Welsh Assembly Government. Where separate a direct address. I do hope that the hon. and learned codes are drawn up for special advisers in the devolved Gentleman will reconsider his position on this matter. Administrations, the Minister for the civil service must Other parties are taking part and he would be able to consult the First Ministers for Wales and Scotland, who play a valuable role in the process. must in turn lay the relevant code before the National 877 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 878 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Wills] of the British people, as I think all Members have, but I would caution him about being quite so cavalier as he Assembly for Wales and the . I hope sometimes is about jettisoning representative democracy. that that addresses some of the concerns that I know I was glad to note that on this occasion he put Parliament have been raised in both Scotland and Wales about that at the centre of any reform process. matter. In the context of direct democracy, it might behove all of us to reflect on the experience of California. As Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Northern Ireland is the hon. Member for Harwich will know very well, not referred to in the relevant part of the Bill. Was there 100 or so years ago California was beset by a similar any consultation with the office of First and Deputy constitutional crisis when the people of that state began First Minister; will the limits on the number of special to lose trust in their political processes. In the end a raft advisers remain; and did the office of First and Deputy of measures of direct democracy were introduced, including First Minister say that it did not want the system of propositions and referendums. Very recently—just last annual reports on the numbers and costs of special week, I believe—the chief justice of California called advisers to be introduced for Northern Ireland as it is to the system dysfunctional. I do not think that a healthy, be introduced for the other devolved Administrations? judicious introduction of measures of direct democracy— recall, for example—would in any way fundamentally Mr. Wills: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, in Northern compromise our system of representative democracy, Ireland it is a separate civil service and different but it is important that we do not jettison it. arrangements apply, but this is obviously an issue that we can return to in Committee. A number of Members referred to the measures allowing peers to stand down and perhaps to stand My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East again for election to the House of Commons. The Bill is (Keith Vaz) also raised a typically serious point about designed to ensure that there is a framework allowing engagement with the public. I would say that the public the House to deal effectively with discipline issues. We do not regard this as a road show, as it has been so have seen the need for that in recent months, and I hope derisively referred to by the Opposition. The public are that everyone will be able to take advantage of it. It is pleased to be consulted on these matters, they think it is right and proper, however, that in all other aspects of important for them to be consulted, and they think it is public life politicians are able to resign from office important for them to have a say in these matters. We should that be the honourable thing to do, and we are going to give them a say—and it is a great shame consider that the House of Lords should also form part that the Opposition parties do not seem to share this of that process. view. [Interruption.] I hear a sedentary intervention coming from those on the Conservative Front Bench, This has been a very useful debate. I think that the saying “Name them”. What I urge Conservative Members Bill is generally welcomed by Members in all parts of to do is to go on the Ministry of Justice website, where a the House. The hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne) recording of these events is available. They can then returned to a subject that I know is dear to his heart, the hear for themselves what members of the public think registration of voters living overseas. As I intervened on about these issues. If I were them, I would be a little his speech a number of times, I will not deal with all his more careful about questioning the public’s judgment comments again, but I want to make two points. At the on these matters. end of his speech, he referred to the requirement to register annually. I think that that is a fair point, and I I note my right hon. Friend’s support for the proposal will look at it again constructively. He also referred to on short-term peers, and the hon. Member for Chichester the need for an identity to be confirmed by passport. (Mr. Tyrie) also made an important contribution on the issue. We have noted his and other views; we will reflect The hon. Gentleman was intervened on by one of his on them and come back to report in due course. colleagues, the hon. Member for Wellingborough My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Julie (Mr. Bone), on the subject of service personnel, which I Morgan) made an important point about House of take very seriously indeed. I recently met representatives Lords reform and the importance of devolution. I am of service families to discuss how we could increase very grateful to her for her contribution. registration among service members. I have written to many Members inviting them to make suggestions, and My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Kelvin I shall be very open to any ideas about how we can Hopkins) started to make some very important points improve registration among service personnel, particularly about the civil service. I am sorry that he was cut short at this time. I have offered a meeting, and I have not by ill health, and I wish him a speedy recovery. The right received many responses from Members so far, but I ask hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) those who are actually listening to what I am saying— also made some important points—about decentralising including those whose constituencies contain service power—with which we agree. However, I take issue with personnel—to contact me with their suggestions. him slightly over his assumption that decentralising power and diffusing it—which, in my view, is a wholly We have had a very useful debate. I think that there benign process—should involve only local authorities. has been a general welcome for the Bill, although many Of course they are an important part of the process, but Members disagree with some of the detail and many we also need to devolve power much more directly to believe that it should have gone further. This is not the people. end of the process, but the Bill is an important part of a continuing programme of radical reform, and I hope The hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Carswell) made that the House will support it. a characteristic contribution about the importance of direct democracy. The hon. Gentleman makes many Question put and agreed to. very good points. He has clearly understood the mood Bill accordingly read a Second time. 879 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 880 Governance Bill Governance Bill CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM AND (b) amounts payable in consequence of liability for breach of GOVERNANCE BILL (PROGRAMME) duty in relation to audits, examinations and inspections carried out as part of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s functions. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing —( Mr. Watts.) Order No. 83A (7)), Question agreed to. That the following provisions shall apply to the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill: CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM AND Committal GOVERNANCE BILL (WAYS AND MEANS) 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52), Proceedings in Committee That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Constitutional 2. Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be Reform and Governance Bill, it is expedient to authorise— completed in four days. (1) the imposition of charges to corporation tax in relation to 3. The proceedings shall be taken in the following order: transfers of property, rights and liabilities, and Clauses 1 and 2, Schedule 1, Clauses 3 to 19, Schedule 2, Clause 20, (2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.— new Clauses relating to Part 1, new Schedules relating to Part 1, (Mr. Watts.) Clauses 21 to 25, new Clauses relating to Part 2, new Schedules relating to Part 2, Clauses 26 and 27, Schedule 3, Clauses 28 to 31, Question agreed to. new Clauses relating to Part 3, new Schedules relating to Part 3, Clause 32, Schedule 4, new Clauses relating to Part 4, new CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM AND Schedules relating to Part 4, Clauses 33 and 34, new Clauses GOVERNANCE BILL (CARRY-OVER) relating to Part 5, new Schedules relating to Part 5, Clause 35, Schedule 5, Clause 36, new Clauses relating to Part 6, new Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Schedules relating to Part 6, Clauses 37 to 43, Schedule 6, Order No. 80A), Clause 44, Schedule 7, Clauses 45 to 49, Schedules 8 and 9, That if, at the conclusion of this Session of Parliament, proceedings Clause 50, new Clauses relating to Part 7, new Schedules relating on the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill have not been to Part 7, Clauses 51 and 52, new Clauses relating to Part 8, new completed, they shall be resumed in the next Session.—(Mr. Watts.) Schedules relating to Part 8, Clauses 53 to 56, remaining new The House proceeded to a Division. Clauses, remaining new Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I ask the 4. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on the Lobby. fourth day. 5. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall The House having divided: Ayes 276, Noes 113. not apply to the proceedings on the Bill in Committee of the Division No. 227] [9.59 pm whole House. Consideration and Third Reading AYES 6. Proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously Abbott, Ms Diane Campbell, Mr. Alan concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the Ainger, Nick Caton, Mr. Martin moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cawsey, Mr. Ian are commenced. Anderson, Mr. David Challen, Colin 7. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously Armstrong, rh Hilary Chapman, Ben concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Atkins, Charlotte Clapham, Mr. Michael on that day. Austin, Mr. Ian Clark, Ms Katy 8. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall Bailey, Mr. Adrian Clarke, rh Mr. Charles not apply to proceedings on consideration and Third Reading. Baird, Vera Clelland, Mr. David Balls, rh Ed Coaker, Mr. Vernon Other proceedings Banks, Gordon Coffey, Ann 9. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cohen, Harry on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages Battle, rh John Connarty, Michael from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mr. Watts.) Beckett, rh Margaret Cook, Frank Question agreed to. Begg, Miss Anne Cooper, Rosie Benn, rh Hilary Corbyn, Jeremy Benton, Mr. Joe Cousins, Jim CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM AND Betts, Mr. Clive Crausby, Mr. David GOVERNANCE BILL (MONEY) Blackman, Liz Creagh, Mary Queen’s recommendation signified. Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cruddas, Jon Blears, rh Hazel Cryer, Mrs. Ann Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cummings, John Order No. 52), Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Cunningham, Mr. Jim That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Constitutional Brennan, Kevin Cunningham, Tony Reform and Governance Bill, it is expedient to authorise— Brown, Lyn David, Mr. Wayne (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of— Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Davidson, Mr. Ian Brown, Mr. Russell Dean, Mrs. Janet (a) any expenditure incurred by a Minister of the Crown or the Browne, rh Des Denham, rh Mr. John National Audit Office by virtue of the Act, and Bryant, Chris Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit (b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable by Buck, Ms Karen Dismore, Mr. Andrew virtue of any other Act out of money so provided, and Burden, Richard Dobbin, Jim (2) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of— Burgon, Colin Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. (a) amounts required for providing the remuneration packages Butler, Ms Dawn Doran, Mr. Frank of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the chair of the Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Drew, Mr. David National Audit Office, and Cairns, David Durkan, Mark 881 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 882 Governance Bill Governance Bill Eagle, Angela Linton, Martin Russell, Christine Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Ryan, rh Joan Tipping, Paddy Efford, Clive Love, Mr. Andrew Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Todd, Mr. Mark Ennis, Jeff Lucas, Ian Seabeck, Alison Touhig, rh Mr. Don Etherington, Bill Mackinlay, Andrew Sharma, Mr. Virendra Trickett, Jon Field, rh Mr. Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Shaw, Jonathan Truswell, Mr. Paul Fisher, Mark Malik, Mr. Shahid Sheerman, Mr. Barry Turner, Dr. Desmond Flello, Mr. Robert Mallaber, Judy Sheridan, Jim Turner, Mr. Neil Flint, rh Caroline Mann, John Simon, Mr. Siôn Twigg, Derek Flynn, Paul Marris, Rob Simpson, Alan Ussher, Kitty Foster, Mr. Michael Marsden, Mr. Gordon Singh, Mr. Marsha Vaz, rh Keith (Worcester) McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Skinner, Mr. Dennis Walley, Joan Foster, Michael Jabez McCafferty, Chris Slaughter, Mr. Andy Waltho, Lynda (Hastings and Rye) McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Ward, Claire Francis, Dr. Hywel McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Ms Angela C. Watson, Mr. Tom Gardiner, Barry McCartney, rh Mr. Ian (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Watts, Mr. Dave Gerrard, Mr. Neil McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Whitehead, Dr. Alan Gilroy, Linda McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, Geraldine Wicks, rh Malcolm Goggins, rh Paul McFall, rh John Smith, rh Jacqui Williams, rh Mr. Alan Goodman, Helen McGovern, Mr. Jim Snelgrove, Anne Williams, Mrs. Betty Griffith, Nia McGrady, Mr. Eddie Soulsby, Sir Peter Wills, rh Mr. Michael Gwynne, Andrew McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Southworth, Helen Wilson, Phil Hain, rh Mr. Peter McIsaac, Shona Spellar, rh Mr. John Winnick, Mr. David Hall, Mr. Mike McKechin, Ann Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hall, Patrick McKenna, Rosemary Stewart, Ian Wood, Mike Hamilton, Mr. David Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stoate, Dr. Howard Woolas, Mr. Phil Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Meale, Mr. Alan Straw, rh Mr. Jack Wright, Mr. Anthony Hanson, rh Mr. David Merron, Gillian Stringer, Graham Wright, David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Michael, rh Alun Stuart, Ms Gisela Wright, Mr. Iain Havard, Mr. Dai Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Wright, Dr. Tony Healey, rh John Miliband, rh David Tami, Mark Wyatt, Derek Hendrick, Mr. Mark Miller, Andrew Taylor, Ms Dari Tellers for the Ayes: Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Mitchell, Mr. Austin Taylor, David Mr. John Heppell and Hesford, Stephen Moffatt, Laura Thomas, Mr. Gareth Steve McCabe Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Mole, Chris Heyes, David Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Hill, rh Keith Morden, Jessica NOES Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Morgan, Julie Afriyie, Adam George, Andrew Howarth, rh Mr. George Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Alexander, Danny Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mudie, Mr. George Amess, Mr. David Goodwill, Mr. Robert Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mullin, Mr. Chris Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Green, Damian Humble, Mrs. Joan Munn, Meg Baron, Mr. John Grieve, Mr. Dominic Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, Mr. Denis Beith, rh Sir Alan Hammond, Stephen Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Benyon, Mr. Richard Harper, Mr. Mark James, Mrs. Siân C. Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Blunt, Mr. Crispin Hayes, Mr. John Jenkins, Mr. Brian Naysmith, Dr. Doug Bone, Mr. Peter Heath, Mr. David Johnson, rh Alan Norris, Dan Boswell, Mr. Tim Hemming, John Johnson, Ms Diana R. O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Bottomley, Peter Hollobone, Mr. Philip Jones, Helen O’Hara, Mr. Edward Brake, Tom Holmes, Paul Jones, Mr. Kevan Olner, Mr. Bill Brokenshire, James Howarth, David Jones, Lynne Osborne, Sandra Brooke, Annette Howarth, Mr. Gerald Jones, Mr. Martyn Owen, Albert Browne, Mr. Jeremy Howell, John Jowell, rh Tessa Palmer, Dr. Nick Bruce, rh Malcolm Huhne, Chris Joyce, Mr. Eric Pearson, Ian Burt, Alistair Hunter, Mark Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pelling, Mr. Andrew Burt, Lorely Jones, Mr. David Keeble, Ms Sally Plaskitt, Mr. James Campbell, Mr. Gregory Kawczynski, Daniel Keeley, Barbara Pope, Mr. Greg Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Keen, Alan Pound, Stephen Carswell, Mr. Douglas Knight, rh Mr. Greg Keen, Ann Prentice, Bridget Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Kelly, rh Ruth Prescott, rh Mr. John Crabb, Mr. Stephen Lamb, Norman Kemp, Mr. Fraser Primarolo, rh Dawn Davies, Mr. Dai Lancaster, Mr. Mark Kennedy, rh Jane Prosser, Gwyn Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Laws, Mr. David Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Purchase, Mr. Ken Dunne, Mr. Philip Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Kidney, Mr. David Purnell, rh James Evennett, Mr. David Lewis, Dr. Julian Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Fabricant, Michael Lidington, Mr. David Knight, rh Jim Reed, Mr. Jamie Fallon, Mr. Michael Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Riordan, Mrs. Linda Farron, Tim Luff, Peter Lammy, rh Mr. David Robertson, John Featherstone, Lynne MacNeil, Mr. Angus Laxton, Mr. Bob Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Foster, Mr. Don Mason, John Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Lindsay Francois, Mr. Mark Maude, rh Mr. Francis Lepper, David Ruane, Chris Fraser, Christopher McIntosh, Miss Anne Levitt, Tom Ruddock, Joan Garnier, Mr. Edward McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick 883 Constitutional Reform and 20 OCTOBER 2009 884 Governance Bill Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Timpson, Mr. Edward That the draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Moore, Mr. Michael Turner, Mr. Andrew Competence) (Exceptions to Matters) Order 2009, which was laid Mulholland, Greg Tyrie, Mr. Andrew before this House on 25 June, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Mundell, David Vara, Mr. Shailesh Question agreed to. Ottaway, Richard Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Price, Adam Walter, Mr. Robert DELEGATED LEGISLATION Randall, Mr. John Webb, Steve Reid, Mr. Alan Weir, Mr. Mike Ordered, Rennie, Willie Whittingdale, Mr. John That the Motion in the name of Secretary relating Robathan, Mr. Andrew Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann to Rule 56 of the Parliamentary Election Rules shall be treated as Robertson, Angus Wiggin, Bill if it related to an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Robertson, Hugh Williams, Hywel Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of Robinson, Mrs. Iris Williams, Mark which notice of a motion has been given that the instrument be Rogerson, Dan Williams, Stephen approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Rosindell, Andrew Willott, Jenny Russell, Bob Winterton, Ann Sanders, Mr. Adrian Winterton, Sir Nicholas ACCESS TO PARLIAMENT (UNITED KINGDOM Smith, Sir Robert Wishart, Pete MEMBERS OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT) Spink, Bob Young, rh Sir George Resolved, Stanley, rh Sir John Younger-Ross, Richard That the Resolutions of the House of 30 January 1989 relating Stunell, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: to House of Commons Services and 6 December 1991 relating to Swayne, Mr. Desmond Mr. Roger Williams and Access (Former members and United Kingdom Members of the Thurso, John Jeremy Wright European Parliament) shall cease to have effect insofar as they relate to United Kingdom Members of the European Parliament.— (Mr. Blizzard.) Question accordingly agreed to.

Business without Debate REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE (WEST MIDLANDS) DELEGATED LEGISLATION Motion made, That Dr Richard Taylor be a member of the West Midlands Mr. Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall Regional Select Committee.—(Mr. Blizzard.) take motions 7 to 11 together. Hon. Members: Object. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE CAPITAL GAINS (YORKSHIRE AND THE HUMBER) That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Motion made, Enforcement (Guernsey) Order 2009, which was laid before this That Mary Creagh be discharged from the Yorkshire and the House on 17 June, be approved. Humber Regional Select Committee and Mr Austin Mitchell be That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax added.—( Mr. Blizzard.) Enforcement (Jersey) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 17 June, be approved. Hon. Members: Object. That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Virgin Islands) Order 2009, which was laid before REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE this House on 17 June, be approved. (SOUTH WEST) Motion made, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW That Linda Gilroy be discharged from the South West Regional That the draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Select Committee and Roger Berry be added.—( Mr. Blizzard.) Competence) (Social Welfare) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 25 June, be approved. Hon. Members: Object. 885 20 OCTOBER 2009 Power Cuts (North-West Kent) 886

Power Cuts (North-West Kent) cut off, they did not have the internet, and the recorded messages from EDF were not updated, which caused Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House real concern. do now adjourn.—(Mr. Blizzard.) The first contact that my office had was to say that there had been a power cut and that engineers were out 10.18 pm working on the problem. Like my hon. Friend, I was Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): appalled at the lack of information given to me and my I am very grateful for the opportunity to raise the constituents. It was not until the following morning, important matter of power cuts in my borough of Tuesday, that we were advised of the severity of the Bexley in north-west Kent in the week commencing situation. EDF subsequently reported that it was seeking 20 July. There are a number of issues that I would like to to put residents on a power cycle, which meant that they raise in relation to the event, the impact that it had on would get three hours with electricity and six hours my constituents, the response of network operators without, in order that some customers would have some EDF Energy, and matters that need to be considered power supplied. going forward. I hope that the Minister will consider EDF circulated information the next day about postcode carefully the points that I will raise in the debate, as well sectors that would receive the three-hour bursts. It was as contributions from colleagues. These issues are of at that time that the massive problem was identified, great concern in our area of south-east London and which would have a considerable impact across the north-west Kent. Locally, there is great anger and concern area, particularly in Slade Green and Crayford. We about many aspects of the incident, as well as about established that, owing to the network infrastructure, how it has been dealt with and the consequences of the power bursts could not be provided there. The consequences power cuts. were massive, and I shall highlight them later in my I am very pleased to see my neighbour, the hon. speech. We were advised later on Tuesday 21 July that Member for Dartford (Dr. Stoate), in his place. His although some people were getting supplies, 10,000 constituents were heavily affected by the power cuts, as were unlikely to get any power in the foreseeable future. were mine. I am also delighted to see my hon. Friend the Those who were able to get information about the Member for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire), as he power cycles could limit the impact and plan ahead, but has an active interest in these matters. My hon. Friend many more could not. Power would sometimes be restored the Member for South Holland and The Deepings to households in the middle of the night; some of the (Mr. Hayes) is also with us to listen to the debate this information about the power cycles was inaccurate; evening. postcode sectors did not get the bursts that they were I shall begin by informing the House of the background expecting until later; and some sectors never got them at to the debate and to the incident. At around lunchtime all. Many were not able to make use of their three-hour on Monday 20 July the power failed across our area. cycle because they were at work or were out. It was not Subsequently we were advised that vandals had broken until 6.30 on Thursday morning that the vast majority into an access point to the Dartford creek cable bridge had power restored. and caused what was later described as malicious damage The lack of information about the incident has been to the cable infrastructure. That affected supplies to shocking. Only last night did EDF offer me a briefing 93,000 households in Bromley, Bexley and north-west note about the incident. Since the summer, its silence on Kent. Traffic and street lighting were also affected. the incident has been deafening. I have had responses Some households in the south of Bexley borough were only to letters and e-mails that I have sent, which says cut off for a very short period before having their power something about how proactive EDF has been. restored, and experienced no further problems. However, Bexley residents in Slade Green, Erith, Since the power failure, scores of constituents have Crayford, Bexleyheath, Barnehurst, Welling, Belvedere contacted me about the incident, questioning how and and Thamesmead, and residents in Dartford, were not why it happened, and the response of EDF.The company so fortunate and suffered because of the prolonged claims that the incident was caused by malicious damage power cuts. In the immediate aftermath, many contacted to the network, and that therefore the power cut was my office here in Parliament, seeking information about not its fault. There is some truth in that statement. what had happened, as they were unable to find out However, nobody has forgiven EDF for allowing it to much information. happen. EDF’s response to the incident was inadequate, as it clearly had no contingency plan in place for such an incident. It obtained some generators, but only the James Brokenshire (Hornchurch) (Con): My hon. most vulnerable got power on the first night. It was not Friend is making a number of important points, of until the next day that more generators were in place. It which a significant one is the issue of information and attempted to contact sheltered housing schemes, and the inability to provide it in a timely and effective some it successfully did contact. However, it claims that manner. Can he comment on his own experiences and owing to data protection laws it was unable to contact those of others who, I have heard, felt that they were vulnerable network customers. Little was done to help literally cut off, not knowing when the power would people in tower blocks, and information that was provided come back on or the cause of the power cuts, and online was not much use. I am really concerned about feeling a sense of insecurity as a consequence? the lack of consideration that has been shown to my constituents, especially those in Slade Green and Crayford. Mr. Evennett: My hon. Friend makes a powerful In the worst examples, people were cut off for up to point. I shall come to that a little later. There was indeed 70 hours. They did not receive generators or three-hour a feeling that people did not get information; they were bursts. 887 Power Cuts (North-West Kent)20 OCTOBER 2009 Power Cuts (North-West Kent) 888

The public meeting held at St. Martin’s church in Another concern is the imbalance in the level of Barnehurst on Thursday 30 July, organised by the vicar, payments to different parts of the constituency. An Rev. Gareth Bowen, was well attended, and the anger address that was without 24 hours’ power is getting the that people felt towards EDF for allowing the power same level of payment as those who were switched off cuts to happen and for its response was overwhelming for three days. That is unfair. These inconsistencies are and clear. We heard of problems that families had furthering the anger felt towards EDF. There are now feeding and bathing their young children, of pensioners suggestions that EDF may have been wrong to limit the trapped in tower blocks because the lifts were not payment to those without power for 24 hours. Ofgem working and stairwells were not lit, and of thousands of has suggested that people make their claims under the people who went without hot water for days. In Britain guaranteed standards scheme under the 18-hour rule, in 2009, that is quite unbelievable. Bexley council’s despite EDF’s claims. Ofgem is still deciding whether social service teams made the effort to contact as many the event was exceptional and whether EDF should known vulnerable residents as they could. take some of the blame. In most of the area, however, there was also financial The deadlines for the good-will payment are imminent. loss as a result of the power cuts. Regrettably, many I have outlined the concerns about what happened, and residents who shopped that weekend and had full freezers I would like to make a few suggestions about what and fridges lost hundreds of pounds worth of food. In needs to be done properly to address and acknowledge addition, people had to have their alarms re-set at a cost the impact that this has had on my constituents and to them. Even the Linkline alarm system in Bexley others, and what can be done in the future to prevent allegedly did not work for part of the time. Tropical fish such events from happening. were lost, and people have suffered considerable financial The first issue must be the apparent complete lack of hardship. EDF got its response to the financial loss security at the point where the incident took place. Yes, completely wrong. When challenged about recompense EDF is responsible for tens of thousands of miles of for the losses, its response was merely to refer people to network and cables, but my constituents do not understand their insurers. That has caused much anger, especially as why vandals were able to get on to the site and cause so the excess on most people’s domestic policies is the much damage. Why was there no alarm at the gate? same or more than the amount that they have lost. As a Why was there no CCTV at the site to capture images? result of that advice, many people regard EDF as Why was there no back-up for the network? I was unsympathetic. astounded by that lack of security. EDF now claims EDF has repeatedly told us that, as the power cuts that it will undertake a security review. were caused by malicious damage and exceptional The next point is about contingency. Why was EDF circumstances, the usual rules relating to compensation not prepared for this incident? Of course it did not or the electricity guaranteed standards scheme do not vandalise the network, but better security could have apply; that it does not have to pay; and that it had prevented it. Contingency plans put in place for a agreed as much with the regulator. However, that is now large-scale network failure could have minimised the not so clear, as Ofgem, the regulator, is still awaiting the inconvenience and problems that my constituents faced. results of an independent audit of the cause of the I am very concerned, too, about the problems faced by accident. Under the guaranteed standards scheme, residents vulnerable people. It is shocking and worrying that who went 18 hours without power would have been EDF did not have a list of its more vulnerable customers. due compensation of £50 plus £25 for each additional That needs to be looked into. 12 hours. However, EDF has offered only a one-off My final point is about the financial loss and the payment of £50 for those who were without power for good-will payment. In Slade Green and Crayford, there 24 consecutive hours. That decision has been met with are some very underprivileged people who are not able disbelief, and it has caused people to mistrust EDF. to sustain the loss of a week’s or a month’s supply of Many people see the offer as a way of limiting the food and were greatly inconvenienced financially by amount that EDF has to pay out. My constituents feel losing it. It is clear that £50 is inadequate to deal with that it was inadequate and unfair, and I have to agree. their loss. Does the Minister think that EDF can claim EDF has written to all customers, advising them of not to be responsible for such losses? Is he satisfied that the offer and telling them to apply for it by the end of the system of payments is fair and reasonable? What the month, but the response to applications has been will he be looking for in providers such as EDF ensuring inconsistent to say the least. I have had constituents better security on the networks for which they are complain that they have not had a good-will payment, responsible? Does he believe that this incident falls while their neighbour in similar circumstances has been outside the guaranteed standards scheme? granted it. Mr. and Mrs. Lee, of Crayford, attended my EDF failed to secure the site adequately, failed to surgery last Friday. They have had to pay a call-out fee implement adequate contingency measures after the to fix their alarm and may have to pay more for further incident, failed to assist large numbers of vulnerable work. They also lost food and other things, and they people, failed to appreciate the problems they faced, alleged that they were advised on the phone that they and failed reasonably to recompense residents. I urge it would receive the payment. However, they were to look at its good-will payments and think again. subsequently refused payment in a letter despite, they claim, other residents in the same street having received 10.33 pm the money. I also have examples of people receiving the payment despite not meeting EDF’s rules. One customer Dr. Howard Stoate (Dartford) (Lab): I thank the hon. received the money without even applying—acquiring Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr. Evennett) it in response to a letter of complaint rather than an and the Minister for allowing me to contribute to this application. That is unbelievable. debate. As they will know, my constituents in Dartford 889 Power Cuts (North-West Kent)20 OCTOBER 2009 Power Cuts (North-West Kent) 890

[Dr. Howard Stoate] Within hours of the start of the incident, and once it became clear that the restoration of some customers’ were particularly badly affected by this incident. Tens of supplies would be protracted, EDF informed my thousands of houses were out of power for the full Department, as it was legally obliged to. EDF instigated 64 hours and had no back-up power, not even intermittent its emergency plans and started the process of supply supplies—absolutely nothing. The hon. Gentleman has restoration. As the hon. Gentleman said, about 31,000 eloquently set out the level of hardship felt by individual customers were quickly reconnected to unaffected parts constituents, reflecting many of my own experiences, so of the network. Overnight, further limited emergency I do not need to rehearse those. interconnection was made available, enabling supplies When I wrote about this matter to Lord Hunt, Minister to be restored to a further 45,000 customers on the rota of State at the Department of Energy and Climate disconnection basis that he described. Rota disconnection Change, he replied: is used when there is insufficient network capacity to “The purpose of the Guaranteed Standards system is to encourage supply all customers simultaneously, so that blocks of companies to provide acceptable standards of service, not to customers are connected for three hours at a time to penalise them for events beyond their control.” share out the available network connection. That is fair enough, but equally it is not fair to penalise As the hon. Gentleman said, throughout the incident customers for events beyond their control leading to mobile electricity generators were deployed, with priority power cuts that have caused them great inconvenience, given to vulnerable customers and critical infrastructure. loss and hardship. Many people have lost well over It was the largest deployment of mobile generators on £100-worth of food and other goods that are not covered the London network. The last remaining customers had by their policy excesses. Many of my constituents find it their supply restored at 6.30 am on Thursday 23 July. extremely hard to meet the extra costs involved. In parallel with the restoration efforts, there was Rather than bending over backwards to be fair to the continuous work to repair the cable bridge and replace power companies, we should remember that our first one of the damaged cables, but 132,000 V cable jointing responsibility is towards ordinary customers in ensuring is a highly skilled and time-consuming process. To that they are treated fairly. Having seen the hardship achieve what was achieved in less than three days was a caused to my constituents by these power cuts, I should considerable achievement by the staff involved, and like the exemptions to the guaranteed standards system they deserve credit for what they did. to be scrapped altogether and full compensation to be paid to every customer who applies for it. Will the EDF tells the Department that while customers were Minister review the current arrangements so that customers without electricity, it worked with local authorities—the who, through no fault of their own, have suffered hon. Gentleman confirmed that with his praise of local considerable hardship are treated with at least equal authorities—and enlisted the help of the British Red fairness, and preferably with the balance of fairness in Cross to provide support for people in need. I give my their direction? They deserve better than they have thanks and praise to the local authorities and the British received. Red Cross for the contribution that they made. As for my Department’s involvement, we have an 10.34 pm emergency response arrangement and Ministers were The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy kept informed of the progress of the restoration. We and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): I congratulate offered assistance to EDF if it was required. Officials the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford were in regular contact with EDF during the incident, (Mr. Evennett) on securing this debate on an incident and afterwards an official visited the site on 18 August that clearly caused much disruption to those who lost to see the progress of the repairs and assess the security their electricity supply for a long period. This is a prime measures that were in place. It was found that the example of what an Adjournment debate is for—Members damage done to the door and lock was still visible, but speaking up passionately on behalf of people in their the undamaged end of the bridge was found to be area who have had a hard time, and in this case, seem to secure and in a good state of repair. Methods of improving have been treated badly in the ways that he has described. security or modifying the network to prevent such Like the hon. Gentleman, I understand that the incident incidents in future have been discussed with EDF, and in question is likely to have been caused by one or more those discussions are ongoing. people breaking into a locked chamber adjacent to the Electricity companies have a legal obligation to ensure cable bridge over Dartford creek. While they were there, that their network is designed and maintained to protect during the afternoon of Monday 20 July, a fire was the public and consumers from the dangers of electricity started. If there is a difference between us, it is that I and provide quality and continuity of supply. Those understand there is some suspicion that the intention of obligations are contained in the Electricity Safety, Quality those who broke in was metal theft rather than simply and Continuity Regulations 2002, which have been amended to cause damage. Nevertheless, the fire then destroyed since, and are enforced by the Department. Furthermore, four 132,000 V cable circuits. As he said, that resulted in those regulations require a report of all major supply more than 90,000 customers losing their electricity supply. interruptions to be made to the Secretary of State. There is an ongoing police investigation into the Typically, there are fewer than 60 reportable interruptions enforced entry to the bridge, and the police are of the a year, and this was one of the most significant, and mind that it was probably an attempt at cable theft. certainly the longest, for many years. There has been a rise in cable theft in modern times, The official who visited the site and discussed the because of the high value of scrap metals, and the incident with EDF is assessing whether there has been Department and the industry are aware of the problem non-compliance with the regulations. A decision on and trying to make new plans and prepare better defences that has not yet been announced. As a condition of against the risk. their distribution licence, electricity companies are required 891 Power Cuts (North-West Kent)20 OCTOBER 2009 Power Cuts (North-West Kent) 892 to secure customer supplies in the event of such a fault. while we are all together, I thought it would be helpful The loss of four major circuits could be described as to give hon. Members the number of the ombudsman’s more onerous than the networks are designed for. The advice line, too: it is 03304 401624. cable bridge was installed late in the 1950s, at which time incidents of cable theft and malicious damage were Mr. Evennett: That is helpful. not likely to have been specific design considerations. No electricity network can guarantee 100 per cent. Mr. Kidney: Good. supply reliability. There is an economic balance between The larger payments would be £50 for domestic customers the cost of the network and the degree of supply or £100 for non-domestic customers who were without security, but in this country, electricity supplies are power for 18 hours, and there would be subsequent typically 99.998 per cent. reliable. Even with a good payments of £25 for every successive 12 hours without record on reliability, we must not be complacent. Between power. Those payments are intended not to compensate the Government and the electricity industry, emergency consequential loss, but to encourage electricity companies response arrangements are in place and are exercised to achieve good restoration times for more routine fault regularly. events. The incidents considered range from relatively frequent In addition to the exemption that EDF has claimed, storm events to the extremely remote possibility of a it submitted an exceptional event claim against its Ofgem complete national blackout. That means planning, training interruption incentive scheme targets. The hon. Gentleman and exercising alongside those likely to have a stake in a spoke about that. The claim is still being assessed by potential crisis, including the energy sector; local and Ofgem’s independent auditors, to establish whether regional administrations, devolved Administrations and appropriate actions were taken to limit the severity of other Departments and agencies whose interests would the event. From this determination, the immediate be affected and whose assistance would be needed in significance would be the effect on EDF’s performance such an event. rating under the scheme; crucially, that would affect its Since the incident, EDF has placed 24-hour security regulated revenue. However, of course, if the ombudsman at both ends of the bridge until additional security had to make a determination about the exemption, that measures can be implemented. In the longer term, EDF might be relevant information to be taken into account. is investigating the feasibility of rerouting some or all of While this was clearly a significant incident that the cables. A number of the methods being considered caused major inconvenience to the customers affected, to achieve that would not have been a practical option the recovery from it demonstrates that the electricity in the 1950s when the bridge was built. An assessment is industry retains the capacity and expertise to respond also being carried out to identify whether there are any to such emergencies. The hon. Gentleman asked me to similarly vulnerable parts of the network. consider four suggestions. The issue of security has On compensation, in addition to the disruption caused come back to our notice because of the growing incidence to those affected by the incident, many will have suffered of metal theft, and prompted by that, we were already a financial loss. EDF tells me that it has offered a considering whether new levels of security would be £50 good-will payment to any customer who was without required. Like the hon. Gentleman, I wondered about electricity for more than 24 hours. Owing to the exceptional CCTV cameras in this day and age. nature of the incident, EDF has claimed an exemption I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the contingency from the guaranteed standards of performance, in plans of each energy company should be able to minimise accordance with the Electricity (Standards of Performance) inconvenience. I stress the extent and scale of this Regulations 2005. Performance regulations were introduced incident, and the staff who acted to put things right as in 1991 under section 39 of the Electricity Act 1989 and quickly as they could did a good job. However, the hon. have been regularly updated to reflect changes in the Gentleman does not think that the arrangements with structure of the industry. the local authority and the Red Cross for the identification The regulations would provide larger payments to of vulnerable people so that they could be helped were more customers if the exemption did not apply. That sufficient, and so we will need to look at that some point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for more. On the issue of compensation, I hope that the Dartford (Dr. Stoate). EDF certainly did not consult hon. Gentleman will have found the general comments me on whether it should claim an exemption. I have that I made helpful. asked whether I can object to it claiming an exemption, My Department takes the lead for the Government but apparently the regulations do not provide for that. on resilience in the energy sector. We take our responsibility My hon. Friend asked whether I would look closely at very seriously, including by having regular reviews of the regulations in future, and I certainly will. preparedness and a programme of exercises. Our review I say this to my hon. Friend’s constituents and those of the causes of this incident and the lessons to be of the hon. Gentleman: any customers who lost their learned from it is ongoing, and I assure the hon. Members electricity supply and who dispute the application of who have taken part in this debate that we shall make the exemption are entitled to continue their dispute all available the findings of that review, and take action on the way up to the energy ombudsman, who would have any recommendations. to make a determination. Information on making a Question put and agreed to. complaint to the ombudsman is detailed in EDF’s complaints procedure, and on the energy ombudsman’s website. For the sake of completeness, I should add that 10.46 pm the address is www.energy-ombudsman.org.uk. And House adjourned.

179WH 20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 180WH

bingo and outings. They call on residents in the mornings. Westminster Hall They are always around to convey a sense of warmth and to provide a listening ear when one or other of the Tuesday 20 October 2009 residents experiences trouble or ill health. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. and learned [MR.BILL OLNER in the Chair] Gentleman has brought an important matter to the House and he has started in a very sound manner. He Wardens (Sheltered Housing) was right to make avoiding generalisations a premise of Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting his remarks, but he is equally right to generalise about be now adjourned.—(Kerry McCarthy.) one thing—that wardens are real heroes. They go the extra mile and they are extremely valuable. Will he therefore join me in deploring the fact that some councils 9.30 am have told wardens that they could be sacked or disciplined Mr. Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): if they speak to anyone at all about changes to the It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, warden system? Gagging wardens is not the way to run Mr. Olner, and to have secured this debate on a subject a reasonable democracy or local government. of increasing importance throughout the country. I should say that I speak with a degree of personal Mr. Cox: I would agree with the hon. Gentleman on interest because I have relatives in sheltered housing the general principle, although it is difficult to know who have experienced the benefit of that form of care about the individual circumstances. for a number of years. Although this is sometimes difficult in the House, I It is an amazing fact, when one first reads it, that just want to avoid the tit-for-tat mudslinging that the debate over 7 per cent. of the retired population are in some could descend into. I want to invite hon. Members to form of sheltered or extra-care housing, and about embark on a real review and analysis of the changes 500,000 people are affected by the issues that we are to taking place throughout the country. The Government debate. seem not to have evaluated those changes or even Let me say right at the outset what I am not here to always to have a coherent picture of what is happening, do—perhaps I can address the Minister directly. I am and we need to consider whether they should be getting not here to say that any particular local authority is a grip on the process and offering some clear leadership. uniquely bad or uniquely good. I am not here to argue As I said, I do not suggest that any particular local that the growing orthodoxy of floating support is always authority is uniquely bad or uniquely good, but the wrong. I am not here to argue that floating support Government have a role in the process. They should does not have significant benefits or that it ought not to offer leadership and set out clear guidelines and good be developed throughout the country. I am here to practice. If changes are to be implemented, the Government argue that something is going wrong with the process should take the initiative in setting out how they should being followed in Supporting People administering be implemented in general terms, leaving it to the Supporting authorities throughout the country, with the manner in People administering authorities to devise the specifics which changes are being implemented and with the and take the decisions that best suit them. view that they are always right in all circumstances. The Help the Aged report predicts that although Most particularly, there has plainly been a failure to about 5 per cent. of provision is floating support, the make the elderly and the residents of sheltered housing figure will rise to nearer 40 per cent. in just two or three feel that they have truly been consulted. years. A fundamental, albeit silent and invisible, change The Minister will have read the excellent report called is taking place across the country in the provision “Nobody’s listening—The impact of floating support offered to tens of thousands of elderly people. on older people living in sheltered housing” from Help I was speaking of the value of wardens. In many the Aged and the Housing and Support Partnership, cases, wardens are the life support for very frail, vulnerable and I make no bones about saying that I am particularly and elderly people. Often, such people are newly widowed. indebted to those organisations. The report reflects Sometimes, they have no experience of carrying out many of the concerns that I intend to air this morning, small housing maintenance tasks or looking after the but they are also reflected in the worried letters that plumbing, the kitchen or the bathroom. A supportive Members throughout the country are receiving—my environment with a single point of contact—the constituency is no exception—about the changes to the warden—on hand to help therefore provides intensely delivery of sheltered housing. valuable care and support. It is important to reflect on what sheltered housing with resident wardens provides for those who experience David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): it. First, most residents speak of the sense of security, I am grateful to my Select Committee colleague for companionship and collective community in which they giving way. Like him, I regret the passing of resident reside. At Glebe Court in Northam in my constituency, wardens, although I do not believe that could have been the proposed changes will have distressing consequences the intention of the Supporting People changes. In my and are causing residents enormous anxiety. Like other authority, there are 14 schemes and 333 places, 20 per residents of sheltered housing, they speak of the warden cent. of which are vacant. Does the hon. and learned as the life and soul of their little community. Gentleman agree that the problem is that some schemes Invariably, wardens go well beyond the call of duty. can reach a tipping point, with vacant property accentuating They organise social activities. They often preside over and accelerating the feeling of vulnerability, such that fish and chip suppers or sausage and mash. They arrange the rest of the residents eventually leave? They will be 181WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 182WH

[David Taylor] I shall tell the Minister of a startling statistic given in the Help the Aged report. It found that something like decanted by the local authority, which will then flog the 67 per cent.—it was certainly two thirds—of SPAAs property off for other purposes, and that would be a whose consultation processes were considered had consulted tragedy. Like the hon. and learned Gentleman, I believe residents only after the critical decisions had been made. that floating wardens have a role to play, but they That simply cannot be right. If one cry is coming from should not de facto be the only means of providing coastal regions such as the one that I represent and support? Does he agree? from the urban centres represented by other Members in the Chamber today, it is that elderly people feel Mr. Cox: Yes. I agree also that vacancies have driven utterly disempowered by the process. They feel helpless, change; the hon. Gentleman might suggest—I would believing that their voice is not heard. They feel that not necessarily demur if he did—that they are often they are not consulted, and that if they are it is nothing manipulated and engineered to produce a situation in more than a sham. which the home or the development is essentially changed If it is true, as the report tells us, that 66 or 67 per in nature. cent. of authorities have already taken their decisions Today, however, I wish to place the spotlight firmly and only then condescended to consult those most on the changes going forward under the aegis of the deeply affected, it is a disgrace. The Government have a Supporting People programme. Having looked into the responsibility; I urge the Minister to take hold of the subject, it seems to me that it is happening at a much matter and to say to local authorities, “This is the way accelerated rate, and that it is happening as a result of a you should consult. You should not take decisions growing orthodoxy about how such care and support before you talk to the residents that are affected, just ought to be delivered. because they are elderly and frail and preoccupied with the complexities of life.” Such actions are disgraceful. Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): I thank They are exactly replicated in the experience of those at the hon. and learned Gentleman for laying out the Glebe Court, at Northam in my constituency. There, I argument as he has. I am sure that we all have had was confronted with residents who were distressed and people raising concerns with us about the changes, such anxious, some tearful, and who were in a state of as those recently raised with me about the Rosemont uncertainty and suspense. flats in Bramhope in my constituency. We have touched When implementing change of so fundamental a upon the question of costs. Does the hon. and learned character to the welfare of elderly people, it cannot be Gentleman agree that there is a glaring gap in the right to catapult them into such a state of mind in the debate? Getting rid of wardens is used as an argument twilight of their years, when they are entitled to peace for lowering costs, yet we are not dealing with the cost and security. The change is being implemented in a way of not having wardens to look after the vulnerable that does no credit to our Government. I do not mean people that he so eloquently describes. to make a party political point; I mean that it does no credit to the systems that we have put in place. We need Mr. Cox: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. There is clear leadership from the Government. At the very no doubt that the kind of environment that a warden least, we need clear principles of good practice that can create will prevent the decline among elderly people local authorities and SPAAs are required, or at least that can often lead to knock-on and consequential costs encouraged by the Government, to follow. of a much higher order. However, I can see the other side of the argument, Those principles of good practice should make it which has been expressed to me by the county council in clear that the wishes and desires of elderly residents, my area. It is that floating support allows the release of and their expressions of preference, are important factors resources to cover a wider range of people in a wider when considering a move to floating support. It is a range of settings. I realise that floating support has such clear symptom of the failure of consultation that elderly a benefit. One can reach people with the current people do not feel that they are participating in the accommodation-based support and tailor it to individual change for which their assent is being sought. They need. However, the argument runs that accommodation- should be persuaded by the arguments for floating based support does not do that, often delivering support support. to people who do not need it and sometimes do not Such symptoms suggest that we face yet another even want it—although people can opt out. The release judicial review. I understand that yet more local authorities of resources enables people’s needs to be met in their are being taken to the High Court to challenge the own homes and in other types of housing. changes that they are bringing forward. It is a great pity I fully accept the virtues of taking that approach. I that we should have to rely upon the judges, although I fully understand that with floating support, the use of declare an interest in that the law is my profession. scare resources is vital—even more so at present. I fully I suppose that I should rejoice in the opportunity for agree that the practice being developed in many Supporting lawyers to make more money, but I do not. People administering authorities—SPAAs—can often deliver considerable benefits. However, I am concerned David Taylor: Yo u d o. that one increasingly meets a kind of intransigence over the idea that floating support is always considered Mr. Cox: I do not, because if it is done at the expense better. The consultation resulting from that sense of of the insecurity of mind of a single elderly person—the righteousness over the delivery of floating support—if House will recall that even as I speak I am reflecting it is held—does not attract the confidence of those who upon the faces of loved ones—if it is done at the are consulted, and it is frequently not held at the appropriate expense of a single trace of anxiety in them, I deplore it. time. If they and others like them have to go to the High Court 183WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 184WH of England and Wales to seek consultation and democratic sheltered schemes. But does the hon. and learned Gentleman participation over things that affect their circumstances agree that there must be recognition that a good proportion and their lives, I would deplore it. I hope that the House of the half million people who live in sheltered would deplore it. I hope the House will send the Minister accommodation need the sense of community and security the clearest expression of its wish that the Government that can only be provided by someone on site? I know should offer leadership. that it is accepted that 24/7 cover has always been an Help the Aged, in “Nobody’s listening”, says of the illusory ideal. Government’s current approach: “There has been a serious—and surprising—lack of leadership Mr. Cox: I accept that. It is the burden of my submission from the Department of Communities and local Government to the Chamber this morning. There are cases when (CLG) and the Housing Corporation (HC), which are allowing nothing but a resident warden will do. If we are to make retirement housing to wither away without proper debate or residents feel that they have been consulted, there are discussion. This is disgraceful, and a continued lack of engagement times when, if the majority of residents in a particular and leadership is likely to have further negative impact on existing housing development vote or express the clear wish that and future residents.” they do not want their resident warden to go, it would Those are striking words. They are stark in their warning be wrong to remove him or her. I do not accept the of the abdication of responsibility that the Government point—although the hon. Gentleman was well are choosing to adopt. I fully understand that the intentioned—that 24-hour care is an illusion. decisions are for the SPAAs and the local authorities, but that does not mean that the Government should not take a role in leading the right approach in implementing David Taylor: On site. the changes. For when a warden is removed, it affects an elderly person in the most acute way. It removes the Mr. Cox: I still do not accept the point. In the single most important thing to them—the symbol and sheltered housing schemes that I have seen, the wardens substance of their peace of mind and security. may not be around all day, but they are known to be What I find particularly distressing and troubling is somewhere they can easily be reached. That sense of that there are cases in which the situation is even graver. permanent presence conveys confidence and security to I am talking about real cases. Elderly people may have the frail and vulnerable. taken big decisions in their lives based on the understanding I was speaking about a situation where individuals that a warden would be present in the development into have made important decisions to their detriment, based which they move. They have sold their houses and made on the understanding that 24-hour wardens would be family decisions. They have chosen not to live with their present, and then they find that those wardens are daughter who was going to create an annexe for them. removed. That cannot be right. In particular, it cannot They have chosen to sell their house and have made be right when written or oral representations have been financial allocations to their children, yet they find, made to residents saying that the 24-hour warden will having been in the sheltered housing development for a be there and that there is no risk of them being removed number of years, that the warden upon whom they have from that particular housing development. How can it placed their reliance is removed. be right then to break those representations? It cannot Some 67 per cent. of SPAAs acknowledged that be right, and I apprehend that the legitimate expectations elderly people in a warden-resident housing development to which such situations have given rise are the basis of regarded the warden as integral to their welfare but, some of the cases before the High Court now. perhaps significantly, a far lower proportion of those We as a House of Commons should not leave it to the SPAAs agreed that wardens were in fact integral to their judges to sort out the problem. There is a developing welfare. I ask the House to reflect for a moment on what picture of incoherence in the way in which such changes that means. It is as if the SPAAs who filled in the are being implemented throughout the country, and it is questionnaires for Help the Aged said, “We accept that up to the Government, as the Help the Aged report says the overwhelming majority of elderly people regard so plainly and eloquently, to take hold of the situation wardens as integral to their welfare, but we don’t accept and to offer leadership. There should be no prescription it. We, the SPAAs, think we know better. We, the for floating support. There should be no presumption SPAAs, say that they are not really very integral and that floating support always yields the better benefits. residents would not be lost without them.” That The system adopted must take account of residents’ permutation of answers to the Help the Aged researchers views, and when elderly people have made decisions shows that an orthodoxy, or ideology, is developing based on the understanding that a resident warden will about the way in which care should be delivered. My be present, it is not right for an authority to withdraw request to the Minister is that the Government should that warden contrary to the wishes of the majority of not only take hold of the process of change by delivering the residents in that development, and no authority and setting down clear guidelines of good practice, but ought to do so. Only if we offer that safeguard—only if they should reject the idea—as I hope the Minister will we offer not just consultation but the knowledge that say that he does—that the orthodoxy of floating support their wishes will be a critical factor in any decision that is, in all cases and circumstances, the only way in which is taken—will we restore to tens of thousands of elderly extra-care housing should be delivered. people throughout the country the confidence that the Government and the House are listening, and that David Taylor: The Minister is a decent man of integrity individual Members are willing to stand up and fight and I guess we shall hear him say that the floating for them, as we are here to do this morning. They must warden scheme, together with the emergency call system have confidence that the system does not have to be a and other means, will provide—and does provide—an juggernaut that rides roughshod and tramples over the equivalent level of security for the people who live in interests of individual elderly people. The Government 185WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 186WH

[Mr. Cox] context of sheltered accommodation. I must say absolutely clearly that Supporting People was a good concept. must understand that elderly people are a critical and I say so, because Gloucestershire did peculiarly well out precious responsibility of this House. I urge them to get of the early budgetary arrangements for Supporting a grip on the situation as soon as possible and to offer People. The difficulty was that it was not at all clear moral and political leadership as a Government should. how the money would be divvied out, and as the money has been reduced, the allocations have definitely become Several hon. Members rose— much more tense and controversial, to the extent that Gloucestershire has had to pay back money, relatively Mr. Bill Olner (in the Chair): Before I call the next speaking, and it has certainly been capped, which is speaker, let me say that three Members have written in very unhelpful. This debate is highly pertinent, because to say that they wish to contribute to the debate, and I in April 2009, we lost the ring fence, which has brought want to bring them all in. However, I advise some this issue to a head and led a lot of tenants to question self-discipline because I intend to call the winding-up how sheltered accommodation will continue to function speeches just before 10.30 am. in future. 9.58 am I take it as read that sheltered accommodation is appropriate for those who choose it. I deliberately use Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I am delighted those words, because sheltered accommodation is not to take part in this debate. I congratulate the hon. and suitable for everyone. However, I become very annoyed learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox) when people see it as a historic form of institutional on choosing this topic. I know his part of the world provision, because that is not what it is. It is very good rather well, but I will not talk about specific areas. at what it does, and the key to that success is not the However, I should like to put it on record that I was in buildings but the people involved. The most important one of my sheltered units in Sherborne under the tutelage person involved is the warden or scheme manager, and of a scheme manager. I have to say at this point that it if a unit gets a good one, it functions very well. has taken me nearly 10 years to use that title rather than “warden”. If I get it wrong, I apologise because I am One of the things that was drawn to my attention by always being told that wardens are now called scheme Pauline Simpson of USAP was a report on this subject. managers. The unit to which I refer is under the scheme The hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West managership of Marilyn Wood. It is an excellent unit Devon talked about a report by Help the Aged, but the that has become a very sheltered scheme. I want to say a report to which Pauline Simpson referred me was by few things about that, given the way in which the Pascalle van Bilsen and others. It looks at sheltered arrangements have moved on from the days of the housing, and compares it with independent housing, traditional sheltered unit. and the discussion section begins: Stroud is very good in this field, as we have 29 units, “The most prominent finding of this study is that two comparable groups of frail elderly people in two different housing conditions which are enormously varied. In many respects, however, differed in perceived quality of life, autonomy and feelings of my message to my hon. Friend the Minister about the insecurity; respondents living in sheltered housing evaluated their current system is that if it ain’t broke, why are we trying quality of life more favourably and experienced greater autonomy to fix it? However, we must also recognise that sheltered and fewer feelings of insecurity than respondents living independently accommodation has to move on, and one of the ways in in the community.” which it should do so is in building more units, which That sums up the situation. Why do people want to go are needed. Recently, the only units that have been into sheltered housing? It is not to lose their independence provided are either in what I call the not-for-profit but to protect it, because they get the best of both sector or, more particularly, in the private sector, whereas worlds; they have someone just keeping an eye on them, to me sheltered accommodation is a function of local but they can keep their own room and their own way of authorities and one that they fulfil very well. living, despite the fact that they are living communally, I pay due regard to Pauline Simpson, who chairs the which I think has an enormous amount to be said for it United Sheltered Accommodation Panel in Stroud. in older life. Somewhat contrary to what the hon. and learned Member The problem is that much of the accommodation has for Torridge and West Devon said, it is interesting that aged and we must recognise that it is necessary to invest in Stroud, people have organised terribly effectively, to in sheltered units, just as it is necessary to invest in every the extent that they are pushing the boundaries of other unit of accommodation. If Stroud is taken as an participation and consultation. It is certainly not uncommon exemplar, which I think it can be, many sheltered units for 28, even on occasion 29, of the units in Stroud to be are bedsits, which in this day and age are not popular, represented at that panel. It is a fairly fierce body for because of the lack of space. Moreover, there are always anybody going before it, because the people on it do not issues related to pets and the way in which people think hold back in saying what they think and they are very that their home is really a home, rather than something else. clear in their thinking. There is also the issue of the age at which people can The starting point, or backdrop, to this discussion is go into sheltered accommodation—I am always wrestling that Stroud, perhaps like the rest of the country, has with that issue. Notionally, people can go in, from the been reviewing the role of sheltered accommodation for age of 60 onwards and I think that that is quite important. some considerable time. The current review started in For some people, their situation is such that they need March 2007, which is more than two years ago, and that to enter into this type of sheltered living at a relatively review was itself conducted on the back of earlier young age, normally because they have a disability or reviews. I think that we need to reach a conclusion because they are vulnerable in some way or other. about what we want to do. Much of the review process However, that causes some tensions, because there may is about establishing where Supporting People fits in the be a huge age range of people in sheltered accommodation. 187WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 188WH

We must also consider the suitability of some of the sheltered accommodation, as it was a stepping stone. accommodation for people as they become frailer. We However, the issues are not easy, and they must be need to talk about wet floors and how people can be coped with at an individual level. bathed. All of the facilities, for bathing and for other We need to get out there and proclaim the value of activities, need to be made fit for purpose, if someone’s sheltered accommodation. It must change and updated, quality of life is to be kept at such a standard that they and it certainly needs investment, but the benefits are want to live in sheltered accommodation rather than there for all to see. I congratulate the hon. and learned seeing it as a trap. There are also issues related to things Member for Torridge and West Devon, who spelled out such as mobility scooters, which in many respects are a those benefits much more fluently than I have done, but pain, but they are absolutely vital for the people who consultation with those in sheltered accommodation use them. In the area where I live—Sherborne is in must be a real exercise. It must involve participation, Stonehouse, where I reside—mobility scooters are very and it certainly must give people— attractive, as it is a flat part of Stroud. However, if people are not careful, there are mobility scooter motorway Mr. Bill Olner (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Gentleman wars, with scooters buzzing around. That is great, but was doing quite well until he took that last intervention. each scooter needs to be powered up and kept in an appropriate place, which is not always easy in some of Mr. Drew: I will bring my remarks to a close, Mr. Olner. our older buildings. We need definitive support from Government and local Turning to the subject of resident scheme managers, authorities, and we certainly need the support of those there is always tension about availability. It is important whom we would like to live in sheltered accommodation. to lay down standards that are fair to the scheme That is where we should be going. Let us make sure that managers, but of course back-up is required. My father, we put it on the record, along with the support that who recently passed away, relied on an alarm system in exists for it, because it is very appropriate for many of the community, and that system is crucial. What happens our older people. when someone falls over? Who picks them up? There are some real tension points in that situation. Is it the ambulance service that picks them up? Is it a requirement 10.11 am that the scheme manager should do so, or is there some Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the other way to deal with that situation? It is a perennial hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon debate. (Mr. Cox) on how thoroughly and exhaustively he I am aware that other Members want to speak in the introduced this topic. I will explain briefly, widening the debate, so I will bring my remarks to a fairly speedy debate a little, why I am here. conclusion. We have spent long enough reviewing sheltered I picked up a lot of additional casework recently accommodation, which has a part to play. I certainly relating to tenancy and leasehold issues, many of which welcome some of the material from ERoSH—a consortium centred on service charges and quite a few of which on the essential role of sheltered housing—which examines concerned the role of scheme managers. There were the role of sheltered accommodation in the round. complaints and discussions about their availability, the ERoSH is not against floating support per se. There is a change in service and the cost—in many cases, the gentleman in my constituency called Ron Birch who increased cost—of the service. It seemed to affect a provides floating support and he himself is quite critical wide variety of accommodation in my constituency, about some of the ways in which we are going, because with a wide variety of clients and providers, ranging he believes that floating support is seen as a cheaper from the more traditional model of low-cost sheltered option and as a way in which people can try to pretend housing to high-cost bespoke luxury developments. that they are providing quality support when in reality Generally, the picture was fairly simple. It was generally nobody is providing such support. agreed that less was being provided for more. That is annoying, as the hon. and learned Gentleman explained Bob Spink: Does the hon. Gentleman think that it in his initial remarks, to anybody on a fixed budget would help to inform and improve decisions about trying to manage their finances who does not anticipate sheltered accommodation if there was some more reliable those finances growing to any extent. If one talks to research into the overall total cost of this decision to residents, they often put the cause down to something remove wardens? Establishing that overall total cost relatively simple: they blame either the parsimony or would take into account contingent expenses in the the profiteering of the organisation in putting up the national health service and in social services when wardens charge. are withdrawn and floating support is provided, because However, when one talks to the organisations there is a cost differential in the longer term. themselves—the various housing associations and companies that provide sheltered housing—it gets a Mr. Drew: Yes, I agree with the hon. Gentleman. As little more complex. They talk about tax changes and much as I do not want to see death by review, there is a the changing treatment by Her Majesty’s Revenue and lack of good qualitative research that looks at costs and Customs of benefits in kind. Some—I must be careful some of the reasons why people go into sheltered with the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) accommodation. The point that I was going on to make here—talk about the effect of the EU working time was about how we manage the way in which people directive on the number of hours that wardens in sheltered exit—I do not mean “exit” in the worst possible way, housing can work. Many, of course, talk about the but literally the way in which people need to move into change in the Supporting People budget, the separation residential care because they are no longer capable of of housing and care costs and the end of local authority being nursed. That is why I liked the concept of very ring-fencing. 189WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 190WH

[Dr. John Pugh] the documentation loaded on them by the local authority, which goes as far as to ask individual clients, including All those issues are, frankly, out of the range of 90-year-old ladies with dementia, what they think of ordinary tenants and leaseholders. They are simply procurement strategies. I have seen the documents; they confronted with the effects. A particularly acute case in are wholly inappropriate and make it difficult for smaller my constituency occurred in a housing development providers to prove they are doing a really good job, as is run by Anchor housing, a reputable sheltered housing the case. provider, and involved a tenant who was locked out. More bureaucracy is not the solution to any of those She happened to be locked out after the on-site warden problems. The solution, which has been well mapped had finished her hours. Other tenants visited the on-site out in this debate, is to empower the vulnerable citizens warden on the tenant’s behalf, trying to get her to open who end up in sheltered housing. That might require up the house, but the warden refused, saying that it was considering arrangements for advocacy on their behalf, beyond her role at the moment. The tenants went one as some of them are not particularly capable of doing step further and asked for a key, which was not provided so themselves. As was also illustrated by the hon. and either. In the end, a locksmith had to come all the way learned Gentleman in his opening remarks, we as policy from Bolton—that was how the Anchor scheme was makers must decide what should be provided, or we will supposed to run—to let in the old lady who had waited simply end up with what we get, not having planned for two hours in the cold to get into her accommodation. it. That throws the ball back into the Minister’s court, That is not the nature of sheltered housing, which is because the call for clear leadership is well supported. why the incident attracted a degree of media attention in the national press. I suppose that the case could be 10.18 am seen as the extreme tip of quite a large iceberg. Generally speaking, the pattern is fairly clear. The warden service Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I, too, is changing, sometimes in good ways—wardens now are congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Torridge probably better trained now than they have been hitherto— and West Devon (Mr. Cox), as well as the hon. Member but generally, there is a switch away from the beck and for Stroud (Mr. Drew) and my hon. Friend the Member call model, which had its limitations and sometimes for Southport (Dr. Pugh), on not only the content of imposed on wardens in ways that were inappropriate, to this debate but the tone in which it has been carried out. the less popular remote model. That raises three key It is absolutely right that we seek a consensus on this issues. issue, which affects our constituents, rather than indulging The first is a straightforward consumer protection in party political debate. It is not a party political issue. issue. People choose and budget for a particular care I am particularly indebted to the hon. and learned package when they go into care housing, as the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. Had he not done and learned Gentleman explained clearly in his initial so, I would have had to, in order to meet my commitments remarks. They pay for a warden service that is then on the matter to the residents of Elizabeth court in reduced, or they pay for an on-site service that is then Martock, whom I met only last week. I said, “Of course removed, seemingly with limited redress. The possibilities I will try to secure a debate early in the next parliamentary for redress must be explored. Warden service is not the Session.” The hon. and learned Gentleman has done me only area in which that can happen. I do not want to a great service. make Anchor housing the villain of the piece, but the The residents of Elizabeth court have a particular organisation also goes to residents and says, “You’ve concern. They are losing their part-time warden, having got a bath now. We are replacing it with a shower lost their full-time warden some time ago. That is not a whether you like it or not, unless you have a doctor’s local government housing scheme, but a housing association note.” That does not strike me as being in the spirit of scheme that did not derive from council housing. That sheltered housing. widens the context of the debate slightly from the That brings me to the second issue. Sheltered housing traditional question of what a council provides, because providers need to think hard about their mission. They the issue concerns all providers. are identified with a particular product and a particular While talking about my constituency, I ought to kind of client relationship. I know that some of the mention a case that was well publicised in the national larger ones want to change the nature of that relationship, newspapers over the summer. A gentleman in his 80s and are more attracted to the provision of peripatetic fell in his home in Holcombe and broke his hip. He was care packages than to the traditional role of providing left for some time before being discovered by a neighbour. sheltered housing in the understood sense. However, There was no easy recourse to deal with his problems. such providers risk becoming more business-like and That illustrates the exposure of many elderly people. losing some of their original sense of mission or soul. They are anxious, correctly, that if there is an emergency One thing weighing heavily on people who complain they will no longer have the support they used to have. about what sheltered housing provides is the very high Four years ago there was an on-site warden who would salaries paid by some of the bigger housing associations have dealt with that gentleman’s issues. to their chief executives. In 2003, there was a court case in which 20 wardens The third issue is public accountability. If providers from Harrow borough council claimed that their have access to the public purse, how can they account conditions fell foul of the European working time for that better? Ironically, it is the bigger providers that directive because they were contracted to work sometimes find it easier to fill in all the forms and 37 hours per week, whereas they were working for more assessments for which they are asked. I have Abbeyfield than 100 hours per week. The court found in their homes in my constituency, as well as a number of favour and awarded substantial compensation. As smaller providers. They genuinely struggle to deal with a result, concern spread quickly among housing 191WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 192WH managers that they could no longer have on-site We have very few minutes at our disposal, so I will sheltered accommodation wardens. That is still used as close to allow others to speak. I say simply that there the reason for many of the changes we are discussing. must be alternative ways of delivering a better service for those who wish to see a physical presence. I will not The changes have now gone well beyond that, because prescribe the alternatives, but one that comes readily to it is often not on-site wardens but part-time non-residential mind was instituted many years ago when I was the wardens who are being withdrawn in favour of the leader of Somerset county council. Then, there was a model described in this debate. Far from the amount of movement from institutional care to so-called care in sheltered accommodation being increased, as the hon. the community. We developed core and cluster systems Member for Stroud urged, 50,000 sheltered housing that provided a resource to a group of people living in units have been lost over the last five years. It is estimated houses. That is not quite the same as sheltered housing, that there are 470,000 units in the country, compared but perhaps such a system could be provided by long-term with 520,000 units five years ago. When I say those units care establishments under contract, to give at least have been lost, I do not mean they have been bulldozed, part-time warden support for sheltered housing schemes but that the support for residents that provided them that goes beyond the simple emergency response and with sheltered accommodation is no longer provided. call-up systems being proposed. As the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon said, it is estimated that within three years, We need to look at the consultation process and the 40 per cent. of schemes will have floating support. kind of executive decisions that are too often being taken for the good of the residents, but without their Like other hon. Members, I am not critical of local agreement. authorities or housing associations that are putting the greatest possible effort into providing support for their Mr. Bill Olner (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Gentleman residents. There are some for whom floating support is should give his party’s spokesman an opportunity to the right answer; I simply argue that it is not right for all contribute. residents. For many residents, it creates a high level of anxiety. Like the rest of the population, residents of Mr. Heath: I am very happy to give way to my hon. sheltered housing schemes as a demographic are becoming Friend. older and frailer. They are now more likely to lack comparatively young, good neighbours who can come 10.28 am to their aid and support them in difficult times. That is why wardens are valuable. As is so often the case with Sarah Teather (Brent, East) (LD): Thank you, Mr. Olner. people who work in social support systems, wardens It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the have sometimes been exploited because they provide first time. added value. They often go beyond the strict terms of I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for their remit. However, that provides not only support, Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox) on securing the but vital reassurance for residents. debate. This issue is of extreme interest to many people up and down the country. I congratulate him on the Moving wardens away appears to provide a cost tone with which he opened the debate. He was careful to saving for the housing association. However, as the hon. ensure that we understood that he was saying not that Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) said, the costs are floating support is always wrong, nor that wardens are often simply transferred elsewhere in the system, making always right, but that the key point is consultation. We the cost saving only an illusion. We have adduced similar must ensure that residents in sheltered accommodation arguments in debates on the value of community beat get what they need and that their views are listened to officers. Such officers were never cost-effective in terms and taken into account. of fighting crime, but they are desirable because they The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) spoke of provide intangibles such as reassurance for the community. the complexities of the support that is needed in sheltered In the same way, rural post offices have high unit costs housing schemes and the dangers of appearing to follow and cannot be justified by looking just at the bottom cheaper models. The hon. Member for Castle Point line on the balance sheet. However, they provide enormous (Bob Spink), who is no longer in the Chamber, pointed value to a community that goes well beyond the strict out that the cheaper option might not always be cheaper terms of the business. in the long term. My hon. Friend the Member for I have mentioned that we are discussing not just Southport (Dr. Pugh) spoke about changes in the models local authority housing but housing associations. for warden schemes, even where they continue. The current judicial review is against the withdrawa My hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome l of warden facilities in non-municipal housing associations. (Mr. Heath) spoke about what happens when wardens As my hon. Friend the Member for Southport suggested, are not in place; for example, people might fall and be it is reasonable for residents to expect warden support unable to access support. That reminded me of what after they decide to enter such housing. It is a contractual happened to my grandmother 20 years ago. She was issue because when the housing is bought, the living in sheltered accommodation that had wardens advertisements say that it is sheltered housing with when she fainted and broke her shoulder. Unfortunately, warden support. I have seen such advertisements. The she lay on the floor for the best part of eight hours, so it contract they sign is therefore for sheltered housing is not always the case that, where wardens are in place, with warden support. Residents are now being told that people are prevented from being left in a vulnerable the support is being withdrawn unilaterally, without a position for an extended period. consequent amendment of contract. We must wait and As I listened to the opening remarks of the hon. and see what the judicial review says, but I think there is a learned Member for Torridge and West Devon, I was reasonable expectation. reminded of a consultation meeting with Age Concern 193WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 194WH

[Sarah Teather] That is why the type of consultation I have mentioned is absolutely vital. The Help the Aged report that the hon. that I attended just last week. Age Concern has been and learned Gentleman cited in his opening remarks running a series of focus groups with elderly people to suggested that before a decision is made to remove a look at the Government’s Green Paper, “Shaping the warden, it should be put to a vote of local residents. Future of Care Together.” It wants to make sure that That seems to be an example of good practice, which I local politicians understand what older people think hope housing associations and councils will consider about the questions posed in the Green Paper and that following. It is perhaps most important that any changes we understand what older people feel most strongly introduced are given time and are not brought in overnight. about. All too often there is a three-month consultation and a What struck me most particularly about the comments month later, the warden is removed. Someone who is of the people on the group in Brent was what was said vulnerable needs longer to adapt, even if the proposed about their complex needs and how meeting those changes might be better in the long run. needs allows them to remain independent. The issue is I strongly encourage the Local Government Association, not always about practical elements of support, for and perhaps also the Department for Communities and example, meals on wheels or adaptations to homes; it is Local Government, to produce a piece of research on often about emotional support. People on the group in good practice in consultations. In addition, I strongly Brent spoke about the extent to which depression is encourage all housing associations and councils to get under-reported and under-diagnosed in older people involved with their local organisations, whether Help and how daily emotional contact is essential if they are the Aged, Age Concern or older people’s forums, to to remain independent. Once depression sets in, it often ensure that any questions asked in a consultation are has a knock-on effect on many other aspects of physical properly framed around local need. well-being and someone’s ability to remain in their own home. The Help the Aged report also suggested that the Tenant Services Authority should have a role to play. I think that it has a role in holding local providers to Dr. Pugh: My hon. Friend is making an excellent account if they fail to live up to good standards of point about the specific nature of consultation and how consultation. I hope that it will set up a clear independent it can be tailored to individual circumstances. One complaints procedure for tenants who are unhappy consultation pattern is for large housing associations to with their support services, rather than just for those consult at national level and ignore the variants in who are unhappy with their housing management. establishments across the country. In such a situation, consultation has taken place, but it is not the right kind On consultation, it is undoubtedly the case that because of consultation—with the residents on site. housing management and social care are provided by different packages, it can be confusing for elderly residents to work out exactly what is on offer. The Help the Aged Sarah Teather: I agree. My hon. Friend makes an report recommended that the Government should consider excellent point—I was actually going to make it myself— providing retirement housing as a coherent package, about the nature of consultation and the importance of and I hope that the Minister will respond to that point good practice. I am always a little cynical when central in his closing remarks as I would be interested to know Government lecture either local councils or housing whether the DCLG has any plans to provide housing in associations on what qualifies as good-quality consultation a more coherent way. because they are often just as poor at producing decent consultation, and they almost inevitably fall into the Ultimately, the question is whether it was the right trap that national consultations bear no relationship to decision for the Government to end the ring-fencing of local needs, as my hon. Friend has just mentioned. funding for the Supporting People initiative. Unfortunately, By highlighting the issues that the Brent Age Concern when people are unhappy with what is happening on group raised with me last week I was making the point the ground, it is easy for the immediate knee-jerk reaction that consultation needs to be sensitive, because to get at to be to bring back ring-fencing for a particular funding the issues relating to personal contact, and the kind of scheme. However, that is not the answer. I am no more personal contact people need, requires sensitively framed confident that central Government will provide the questions. The questions in consultations are often framed right kind of care for people in a particular area than I in such a way that people feel unable to give the answers am that local government will. In fact, local government that they want to give, and they feel unable to express is more likely to be held to account by local residents their needs. In terms of the support that they would when it gets things wrong—it is far more difficult for like, even in relation to one-on-one support from a people in a residential or sheltered care scheme to hold particular support worker, local residents have said to the Minister to account if he decides that a particular me that day centres and group activities can often be as care package is appropriate for a residential home than important as practical issues. All those matters are part it is for people to bang down the doors of their local of the mix that needs to go into any kind of funding to council. support people in sheltered accommodation. We know that we face great financial difficulty over I accept the point made by the hon. and learned the next five or possibly even 10 years in relation to Member for Torridge and West Devon, which other public spending, but it is important that ending ring-fencing hon. Members also mentioned, that elderly people have does not become an excuse for phasing out funding or often made decisions about their life on the basis that squeezing budgets, and that local councils do not end support and a live-in warden is provided—for example, up getting the blame for what is, in essence, the removal they may have decided not to live with their family. of money by central Government. 195WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 196WH

10.37 am arrangements were later altered arbitrarily and unfairly. As a distinguished lawyer, he knows that will be a Mr. Paul Goodman (Wycombe) (Con): It is a pleasure matter for the courts, so I shall not go any further down to see you in the Chair, Mr. Olner. This has been an that road. Instead, I shall ask the Minister a few questions. expert and calm debate that has been mercifully free of the party political rancour that sometimes disfigures As the Liberal Democrat spokesman indicated in her these occasions. The reason for that lies in the contributions remarks on ring-fencing, with which we agree, it is of all hon. Members to date, and in the fact that the important to strike the right balance between localism tone was set from the start by my hon. and learned and what national Government should properly do. My Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon hon. and learned Friend painted a picture of huge (Mr. Cox). I congratulate him on securing the debate, social change, with the move towards floating wardens, during which he reminded us that we all have sheltered without the Government having any grip on the matter housing schemes in our constituencies. I think that the at the centre or providing adequate guidance. I have hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) said that he had three quick questions for the Minister. First, are the an Abbeyfield scheme; I have one in my constituency, Government making any central assessment of the great too. social change to which my hon. and learned Friend referred? Obviously, we do not want what the hon. At the start of the debate, my hon. and learned Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) rightly called death by Friend acutely and sensitively tried to focus the minds review, but we want to be sure that the Government of hon. Members on the psychology of the older people have a grip on the issue, including a grip of costs. who use sheltered housing. In some cases, the older people concerned will have perhaps recently lost a relative, Secondly—this question arises directly from the Help be separated by a long distance from their children if the Aged report—what could the Government do to they have any—their children may work elsewhere—and tackle complaints? What guidance could they give local may not have easy access to their grandchildren. They authorities? As the report has made clear, older people may therefore suffer from the loneliness and depression in sheltered accommodation, who have not necessarily to which the hon. Member for Brent, East (Sarah been consulted about change, are vulnerable and there Teather) referred. Of course, the warden is important in is a question about where they should go if they have a such situations because, in many cases, they can take complaint. Should they go to the local government the place of a family member. Because wardens fulfil ombudsman or to the housing ombudsman? What is that function, they sometimes—perhaps often—work the Minister doing to ensure that the complaint process well above the literal demands made on the time for is more streamlined? What are the Government doing which they are paid, as the hon. Member for Somerton to ensure that the local government and housing and Frome (Mr. Heath) reminded us. It is quite right for ombudsmen in particular work together better on the hon. Members to highlight the role of wardens. issue, just as the local government and health ombudsmen are being encouraged to do by the Government? My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon said that he was not here to defend, per Finally, I have a brief question about advocacy, which se, the application of any particular system. I have read has been raised by the hon. Member for Southport and both the Help the Aged report and the remarks of others. What plans do the Government have to make Imogen Parry of ERoSH—the Essential Role of Sheltered recommendations to local authorities regarding advocacy Housing, which is the national consortium of sheltered services, or to put such services in place themselves, to and retirement housing. It is worth noting an important allow older people who may not have been properly point that she made in that organisation’s assessment of consulted to make their case to the housing association what is taking place. She said: or the local authority? “Many residents are pleased with changes that have been made I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend again on to their support services, including a move away from resident having secured this important debate. warden services, particularly”— this is the key point— 10.45 am “when they have been fully involved in the process.” The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for If there is a single word that sums up this debate, Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): It it is “consultation”. As the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Olner. the hon. Member for Brent, East, has just reminded us, I know what a great interest you have taken in these consultation should be carried out in the right way, matters, both as an MP since 1992, and prior to that as sensitively and with face-to-face contact whenever possible. a local councillor. Imogen Parry has said that the Help the Aged report, “Nobody’s listening”, which I have seen, I, too, congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox) on securing the “noted a link between satisfied tenants and good communication debate. He is well known for his expertise on this issue and engagement by landlords or support providers…We promote better understanding of the reasons for the withdrawal of resident and for his commitment and dedication to campaigning wardens, meaningful engagement with residents, better use of for better services for older people, not only in his assistive technology…and a strategic approach to sheltered housing constituency but across the country. allocations.” I echo what several hon. Members have said about Members have mentioned the legal challenge involving the tone of this debate. They have raised a series of more than 40 authorities that is being carried out by the important issues that I shall try to address. I hope that solicitor, Yvonne Hossack. My hon. and learned Friend they understand how seriously the Government take indicated that a key issue relates to arrangements entered the housing and support needs of all elderly and vulnerable into by older people, perhaps including the older people people, whether they live in their own homes, with to whom he directly referred, and the feeling that the family or in supported housing such as sheltered or 197WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 198WH

[Mr. Ian Austin] Hon. Members have set out cases in which residents of sheltered housing schemes across the country are extra care schemes. I want to pay tribute to all those concerned about changes to resident warden schemes, who provide care for older people, whether in sheltered especially how those changes are being implemented. schemes or in their own homes. I echo what hon. I want to spend some time addressing that important Members have said about wardens and the heroic work and complex matter. It is fair to say that changes in that they do, and I pay tribute to all those who provide support services for sheltered housing and the replacement floating support in the community, thereby enabling of resident wardens by alternative service models are people to stay in their own homes, as many wish to do. not a new phenomenon. Those changes has been taking The Government’s aim is to ensure that our vulnerable place for two decades, as was acknowledged in the and older citizens get the best housing and support campaign report by Help the Aged entitled “Nobody’s services that can be made available locally in the most listening”, to which the hon. and learned Gentleman effective way. In February 2008, my Department published referred. “Lifetime Homes, Lifetime Neighbourhoods: A National There are several reasons for those changes. An Strategy for Housing in an Ageing Society”, in which independent review of floating support services conducted we set out how sheltered housing is often a positive for the Department last year identified a range of choice for older people who want to remain independent, factors. It found that there was less demand for sheltered but who value that little bit of support or shelter and housing, as people tend to move into sheltered housing the sense of security and community that such a scheme later in life; that a large number of sheltered housing can provide. We said in that document that schemes are not up to modern standards, perhaps “extra care and care homes at their best can be vibrant community providing only bedsit accommodation; and that a hubs, tackling exclusion and promoting active ageing, even if the significant number of sheltered housing residents do accommodation itself is dated.” not require support services and are defined as the As the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and “active elderly”. That is also reflected in the correspondence West Devon has pointed out, it is for local authorities to we have received from residents of sheltered housing, as decide how best to design and commission such services. they complain that they are sometimes required to pay We all agree that local authorities are best placed to for services that they do not want. As a result, some identify the services that are required to meet the needs administering authorities are commissioning flexible, of their local areas and to balance local priorities. We mobile support to sheltered housing tenants, based on are not in the business of dictating to local authorities an assessment of support needs, and they are extending or service providers the detail of what local services that mobile support to older people in other types of they should provide and how to do so, or in micro-managing accommodation. That is a key benefit of the Supporting the delivery of those services. However, we are equally People programme, which makes housing-related support clear that in developing and commissioning local services, services accessible to all vulnerable people, regardless of local authorities should take into account the views and where they live or their type of tenure. experiences of local service providers, local people and Other factors driving those changes include problems especially of service users. recruiting resident wardens, which have arisen in several Consultation and needs assessment are critical, both areas, as sheltered housing is not immune to the wider to ensure that any changes in services are effectively demographic, technological and economic challenges managed and reflect the wishes of service users, and to and changes that society faces. We need to encourage enable local authorities to meet the needs of all service innovative ways of caring for and supporting people to users. That was emphasised in the Supporting People provide a more personalised service and make the most strategy paper, “Independence and Opportunity”, which of emerging technology. For example, greater use of the Department published in 2007. One of the strategy’s telecare can bring substantial benefits, including assisting most important features is the emphasis that it places people to remain in their own homes. It can reduce on keeping service users at the heart of the delivery of inappropriate admissions to hospitals, facilitate discharge housing support. from hospital more quickly and provide advance warning if someone’s condition deteriorates. The importance of needs assessment and consultation with service users is also enshrined in the quality assessment The “Shaping the Future of Care Together” Green framework for the Supporting People programme, which Paper, published earlier this year, sets out the Government was introduced in 2003 and sets out the standards ambition for a national care service in England. It expected in the delivery of Supporting People services. recognises that Supporting People put in place structures One of its five core principles is client involvement and that enabled partnerships of local authorities, health empowerment, which demonstrates the importance the services and probation services to make decisions about Government place on that issue. It also identified methods improvements and local investment in housing for of evidencing achievement and has been a successful vulnerable people. It demonstrates the opportunities for practical tool for ensuring continuous improvement in increased innovation in the joint commissioning of those services delivering housing and related support over the services. Supporting People contributes to the developing past five years. It was reviewed last year to bring it up to work on the national care service, as it shares the same date and further emphasise the need for high-quality, aims of improving service user choice and control and individually focused services that aim to improve outcomes keeping service users at the heart of the programme and for service users. The majority of administering authorities its local implementation. continue to use the QAF, and there is evidence that Hon. Members will be aware that my ministerial other services across authorities, such as adult social colleague, Lord McKenzie, is chairing a working group care, are adopting it as a standard tool to measure the on sheltered housing, providing precisely the sort of quality of services provided. leadership that has been called for in the debate, and I 199WH Wardens (Sheltered Housing)20 OCTOBER 2009 Wardens (Sheltered Housing) 200WH will take this opportunity to update hon. Members on sort of work that the hon. Member for Brent, East that work. The group was established in April by Baroness (Sarah Teather) called for. The Centre for Housing Andrews, and brings together a range of interested Support is leading work on a good practice guide for organisations, including representatives of service providers and commissioners of services on how to commissioners, providers and residents, to consider how engage and consult residents. The guide will improve best to support good local decision making and practice. providers’ ability to consult meaningfully and engage It is taking forward several projects on resident engagement people. It will help service users to understand what and consultation and on service models, and that addresses they can expect of consultation, and it will provide a the second and third questions asked by the hon. Member bench mark so that they can make comparisons with for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman). what happens in their own organisations. The National Housing Federation is leading work on The ministerial working group is also looking at a good practice guidance in the implementation of any key concern raised by Help the Aged: the lack of clarity changes to current support services, including case studies over the complaints procedures for residents of sheltered on a variety of successful models for support services housing. The Chartered Institute of Housing is leading for older people, whether flexible community-based work to produce a guide providing clear and concise support, a scheme management service, the innovative information about the roles and responsibilities of the use of technology or a hub-and-spoke model. That different regulatory agencies; when, how and by whom work will look at the costs and benefits of the various those services can be used; how the agencies relate to models—not just the financial costs, but the psychological each other; and the type of information they require to costs to residents as well. By identifying value for money act. The complaints guide will enable tenants and residents and overall benefits for older people, the case studies in sheltered housing and their families and carers to will present providers and commissioners with a sound judge who to complain to and how to do so if they have evidence base for commissioning support services for exhausted the landlord’s internal complaints processes. older people. Those three guides will be published early in 2010. Consultation is an absolutely vital part of any service, and that cannot be emphasised too strongly. I do not This debate has raised several serious issues about the condone the examples of bad practice that the hon. and way in which residents in supported housing schemes learned Member for Torridge and West Devon gave. As are treated, as well as their concerns about the changes the report “Nobody’s Listening” points out, if an that they face. I thank the hon. and learned Member for organisation has really involved and consulted its service Torridge and West Devon again for securing the debate, users, often change might not be such a contentious or which has provided me with an opportunity to show frightening issue, and that is why consultation should how seriously the Government take those concerns and happen before those decisions are made, rather than our determination to ensure that older people can live after. safely and independently in their own homes, wherever Consultation should also be a proper two-way process, they may be. As I have explained, the key decisions on ensuring that the provider is able to portray the situation the provision of services such as warden support must it faces and offering the opportunity to discuss why be a matter for local authorities, but we have always those changes are being considered and all the options made it clear that any changes to the way in which available. It is for those reasons that consultation and services are provided should be designed to meet the engagement with residents is a critical issue for the needs of residents and take account of their views ministerial working group, which is doing precisely the through proper engagement and consultation. 201WH 20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 202WH

Prisoner Release Decisions mean life, we would send a signal to potential offenders that they will not actually face the threat that they would appear on paper to face. However, if, even in 10.59 am hard cases, we say that a prisoner has to stay in prison Dr. Nick Palmer (Broxtowe) (Lab): This Adjournment for the rest of their days, that sends a strong message. debate is something of an experiment. Traditionally in The counter to that, which, again, a significant minority Adjournment debates, as colleagues know, Members of my constituents argued, is that no useful purpose is seek to press a particular viewpoint and persuade colleagues served by keeping somebody in prison at considerable and the Government to change policy in the direction public expense—the average prison place costs around that they favour. What I shall try to do with this debate £36,000 a year—when they obviously pose no further is discuss a process that the political system as a whole threat to society. We can think of cases where that was demonstrably does not handle very well. I apologise to provable beyond reasonable doubt. There has been those who may have come here on the assumption that I some discussion in the cases of Megrahi and Biggs would speak about prisoner release in general. The about how firm the medical opinions were and so on, specific issue that I wish to deal with is the release of but I do not want to get bogged down in those cases. prisoners who have developed serious illnesses, in particular fatal illnesses. Let us assume that we have a case involving a serious offence, and the perpetrator is now bedridden with Hon. Members will be familiar with the cases that cancer and expected to die within weeks. It is obvious arose in the summer of the Libyan bomber Megrahi that if we release him he will not start rushing around and Ronnie Biggs. Both attracted considerable controversy, and committing more crimes, so the immediate concern and I do not think they showed any of the parties in an is probably not applicable, and few people would think ideal light. Rather than a serious and compassionate of his position as enviable. Very few would say “Life analysis of the situation as it affected the prisoners and imprisonment is not really for life” if a prisoner who is the victims of their crimes, what we got was a good deal bedridden and about to die is let out. They would not of manoeuvring for position between political parties, a feel that that was so bad. good deal of feverish media speculation on what the real motives were and all the usual stuff that we associate with everyday party politics. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): That situation seems unfortunate, not just in those Section 30 of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 deals with cases but more generally. If someone has committed a the power of the Secretary of State to release on grounds serious crime and been convicted—we have to work on of compassion a prisoner who is suffering from a terminal the assumption that they were guilty—we owe it to the illness and likely to be dead within three months, but do victims, the justice system and the individuals concerned not some of my hon. Friend’s constituents have reasonable to treat their case rationally and to try to apply consistent cause to point to past cases? The case of Ernest Saunders principles that stand up in difficult cases. is not directly parallel, but all those years ago he was One of the fundamental questions I would like to supposed to be suffering from dementia but suddenly raise is whether it is appropriate that such decisions be recovered as soon as he was released from the court taken by a politician in the first place. In many other process. There were suggestions that Ronnie Biggs would sensitive areas, Parliament sets up guidelines for how a be out celebrating in the pub within a few days, although decision ought to be taken, but the final decision does he was not, but how can people be reassured? not actually rest with the senior Minister responsible, whether in Westminster or a devolved Government. We Mr. Bill Olner (in the Chair): Order. The intervention are all familiar with cases where a constituent wants has been well made. treatment that has not yet been authorised by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, and which is remarkably expensive. It might extend their lives—such Dr. Palmer: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that cases are very emotional. They are not decided by the question. It anticipates another point, which several of Secretary of State for Health but by the primary care my constituents made, about the possibility of recall. trust, occasionally with the involvement of the law. We do not want to swarm like vultures around someone I would like to put forward for consideration the who is released on the basis that he or she is fatally ill, proposal that such decisions should ultimately be made checking every moment that they are really dying, but by a High Court judge. They should be based on there is appropriate public outrage if there is a miraculous criteria set down by Parliament but should not involve recovery. An argument that several constituents made, ultimate referral either to the Home Secretary, in the with which I agree, is that if we are going to do this, one case of Westminster, or to his counterparts in the devolved of the conditions should be that the person remain in Governments. the jurisdiction of the British Government, or whichever What might such criteria look like? I consulted Government have made the decision, so that if they constituents on that last week and heard a wide range of prove not to be nearly as ill as they appeared to be, they views. A significant minority simply say that if somebody can be returned to prison. In effect, the reason for their has been sentenced to life imprisonment, it needs to release would have been proved to be invalid. mean life, and, if they are dying, that is part of life. The parallel is people who are released on probation Basically, prisoners should be kept in prison until they on the basis that they are thought no longer to be a are dead. The argument is that life imprisonment itself threat. As my hon. Friend knows, if they were to is a compromise, that we have abolished hanging for the commit a further crime, they would be sent back to reasons that we all know but if, in addition, we were to prison to serve not only the sentence for the new crime water down life imprisonment so that it did not really but the rest of the sentence for the old crime. 203WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 204WH

Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. Friend I should like colleagues to consider a number of has not as yet mentioned the victim or the victim’s criteria that we might use for such cases. The first is the family. I always think that the greatest hurt when early gravity of the offence. If somebody is in prison for release takes place is caused by a lack of communication burglary and dying of cancer, for example, it is probably with those affected. If that were got right, matters inappropriate, even if they have a relatively short sentence, would become much easier. Too often, the last people to that we keep them in prison till their dying day. In a hear about what is happening are the victim or their serious case, we are more likely to feel that, at least for family. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is a great the deterrent effect, we will want to keep them in prison. weakness of the present scheme? We should consider the question of how long the prisoner has already served. We are all aware of cases Dr. Palmer: Yes, I strongly agree. I, too, have come where apparently pretty serious offenders have been across cases where the victim of individual violence—not released after 10 or 15 years on the basis that they are in high-profile cases like Megrahi—has only been informed no longer a threat to the public, and that would apply at the very last moment, if at all, and then feels under with additional force if the person concerned is dying. immediate threat. Another point, which relates to what my hon. Friends More generally, the feelings of the victims are clearly have said today, is that we should consider how soon a relevant. A number of judicial authorities have said that prisoner is expected to die. Medical science is not exact, the judicial process is not about the victim but fair so a doctor will never say, “He’s going to die in two justice. However, when we talk about compassion we months and seven days”, although they may say, “He’s are talking about representing the feelings of the general not going to last more than another 48 hours.” However, public and the values of society. It is appropriate for the if we are talking about three months, as my hon. Friend victims of the crime to be consulted before the decision. the Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor) It was noticeable that, in the Megrahi case, victims’ mentioned, we have to allow for the possibility that it is families had mixed feelings. Some felt strongly that he going to be three months and three days or slightly less. ought to continue to be detained; some felt that, yes, it We do not need be too finicky about the precise number was reasonable to release him to show that our values of days, but we need to be clear that the position is as were better than his; and some said that they wanted to described, which means that in any such case at least move on and did not want to express an opinion either two doctors with absolutely no connection to the prisoner way.In such cases, before making a decision it is appropriate need to give a concurring opinion. for the victims, in so far as they can be identified, and their families to be informed that the matter is under How confident can we be that the offender will not consideration, so they have the opportunity to make offend again? Someone’s having a fatal illness does not representations. necessarily prevent them from committing certain types of crime. For instance, a gang leader who is resentful Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): about the person who got them into prison might feel I commend the hon. Gentleman for the thoughtful, that revenge should be one of their dying acts—one of measured way in which he is approaching this matter. their last acts on earth. They might feel that they could He has spoken about compassion and justice. May I put do that better outside prison. Issues such as that need to it to him that compassion is just one element in justice? be considered. We need to consider whether a person is If justice serves any purpose, it is surely about the safe to be released, regardless of the other considerations. reconciliation of offenders and victims. Does he not Does the prisoner show remorse? There is a general think that that is the yardstick we should use when problem in the justice system that hon. Members will be measuring the impact of these decisions and deciding familiar with, which is that if someone denies that they whether what we have got, at the end of the day, is committed an offence they are treated as not showing justice? remorse, because they say they have not done it. There will be cases, given that everything is fallible, including Dr. Palmer: Ideally, yes, there would be reconciliation. the justice system, where people really have not committed Realistically, there will be cases where that is not going an offence. We probably do not want to make a decision to be practical. If someone blew up a relative of mine, I dependent entirely on the prisoner’s confessing and might, if they were dying in prison, say, “Yeah, okay. showing remorse, but it is obviously helpful if the I won’t insist that they stay in prison till their dying person involved says, “Yes, I did it. It was right that I day.” But I would not want to meet them and make was imprisoned for it. I’m grateful for any compassion friends. We cannot make the process entirely contingent shown, but I appreciate that it was right to sentence on that. If we can do it in a way that encourages that, me.” Personally, I would be inclined to count that in his that would be great. If, as in the Megrahi case, some of favour, without completely ruling out a release if he the victims’ families are in favour of a release, and if the says, “No, it’s all unfair. I didn’t do it.” offender is willing to acknowledge that and express We need to consider whether the prisoner has family some gratitude for it, we have made a step forward in nearby who are able to take care of him. There is a terms of civilization. simple cost issue, which I mentioned briefly earlier—keeping There is a parallel here with the Brighton bombing, someone in a high-security prison is expensive—but I where the perpetrator has, as I understand it, expressed am not sure that releasing him from prison straight into regret for what he did. He is now a free man. Some of hospital, especially if there is no family to look after the victims feel that they accept the process and some, him, would achieve a great deal. It is more helpful if perfectly understandably, do not. But the fact that we family are available and it somewhat strengthens the get such a dialogue going is a step forward. I agree with case, because the family are not guilty parties, generally the hon. Gentleman. speaking, and they might feel that, whatever the prisoner 205WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 206WH

[Dr. Palmer] and has attracted a lot of attention in the past few months. I believe profoundly that my colleagues in the has done, they would like to spend a little time with him Scottish Government were absolutely right to release before he dies. That is a relevant consideration and him on compassionate grounds. It was totally consistent something to think about. with the principles of Scots law and Scottish values of The issue underlying all this is the difficult question compassion. of what the justice system is for. I mention this because The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) mentioned I am a member of the Justice Committee, and we victims, who are absolutely important when considering grapple with this issue when considering alternative release, in particular compassionate release. We all identify forms of punishment. The hon. Member for Orkney with the suffering of the families of victims, and no and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) said that reconciliation family would want to endure such an experience, but I is an important objective. Many of our constituents am sure that you will recognise, Mr. Olner, that the believe that retribution is part of prison’s purpose, and prisoner release decision related to something that happened that to some extent society is entitled to believe that if on Scottish soil and that Scottish victims were involved. someone commits a terrible crime they will face a We know what it feels like to be violated by those who penalty. That penalty need not be sadistic, but it should kill and maim indiscriminately for the darkest possible be a penalty nevertheless so that as we go through life reasons. we are aware that if we do something wrong, there will be consequences. Rehabilitation in the context that I am David Taylor: Was the hon. Gentleman as dismayed discussing is relatively irrelevant if the offender is about as I was by the routine and opportunistic way in which to die, although it is obviously relevant in a wider Opposition parties north and south of the border jumped sphere. in with big boots with relation to the al-Megrahi decision, More broadly, society’s values are reflected by the to gain political advantage irrespective of the case? judicial system. We tend to believe that whatever our current values, they are superior to any others. We Pete Wishart: I am grateful for that good intervention. express abhorrence at the practice in some countries of Yes, I was disappointed by the response from other cutting off the hand of people who have committed political parties in the light of the decision. We still do theft, which slightly skates over the fact that we used to not know the UK Government’s view. We know the hang people for stealing horses. We should not assume view of the Labour party in Scotland and the Liberal that our system reflects the ideal society. One may be Democrats in Scotland, but we do not know the UK too misty-eyed about such matters, because we are Government’s view. Some of the interventions from generally dealing with people who are not deserving of political parties stank of the worst type of political great sympathy, although elements of their background opportunism and short-termism, which was disappointing. may have made them what they are today. Nevertheless, there is something to be said for a judicial system that The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria reflects a humanitarian ethos—I am not suggesting a Eagle): The hon. Gentleman said that the British Christian ethos, although it could include that—and Government’s view is not known, but we made it clear that anyone may be forgiven at some point, such as at that the matter was for the Scottish Justice Minister and the end of their life. the Scottish Government. That is the British Government’s The issue is difficult, and the political system does position. not handle it very well. I hope that my debate has encouraged sensible and non-partisan discussion that Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the Minister for stating might move matters forward. that. Of course, the Scottish Government’s view is that it is their job to make such decisions. We know that. That is what this is all about, so we do not need the Minister 11.22 am to tell us that. What we do not know is whether the UK Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I Government believe that the decision to release al-Megrahi congratulate the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) was right. Everyone else has a view on that. The hon. on raising this important issue, on his measured approach Members for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) and for and on the questions he raised, which were relevant and Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) have a view. pertinent. I have a view. The leader of the Labour party in Scotland It will probably not surprise you, Mr. Olner, that I has a view.Wejust do not know what the UK Government’s shall deal almost exclusively with probably the biggest view is. prisoner release decision in recent times—the Scottish Government’s decision to release the Locherbie terrorist, Maria Eagle: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, on compassionate grounds a it would be appropriate for UK Justice Ministers to few short months ago. I shall try to explain some of the express a view on a particular case that was devolved to conditions of that release and the process that was the Scottish Justice Minister when the decision was followed in reaching it. entirely within his personal remit, as he said? Does he believe that would be an appropriate use of UK Ministers’ Mr. Bill Olner (in the Chair): Order. That is fine, but time? we are discussing prisoner release decisions—the release of prisoners anywhere on compassionate grounds. Pete Wishart: If that were consistently the case, it would be okay, but unfortunately it is not. The Foreign Pete Wishart: I shall try to follow your advice strictly, Secretary recently said that the Locherbie bomber should Mr. Olner, but I am sure that you appreciate that the not die in a Scottish prison. Other Cabinet Ministers decision to release Abdelbaset al-Megrahi was a big one have said something different. The UK Government’s 207WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 208WH response is all over the place. If it were a matter of Mr. Bill Olner (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the remaining silent and repeating and parroting the line hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete that it is a matter for the Scottish Government, that Wishart) to respond, I remind hon. Members of the would be okay, but there has been no consistency. If strictures that I tried to place on the debate. This is a there had been consistency, that would be fine. general debate about prisoner release decisions on That big prisoner release decision probably attracted compassionate grounds. I would not want the whole more attention than any other issue during the summer, debate to centre on something that was not the decision with international ramifications and much debate. We of the British Government. know the Scottish Government’s position, but we are still finding out the UK Government’s position. My Pete Wishart: Thank you, Mr. Olner; I obviously take Scottish Government colleagues always knew that the your remarks very seriously. decision would be painful. It was not one that any Any Minister, when they make decisions regarding a colleague in the Scottish Government sought to make, compassionate release, whether in the UK or in Scotland, but they solemnly met their obligations and responsibilities has to consider all the available evidence. The Scottish to consider that prisoner release decision in the best Government have to follow a particular Act, and I hope interests of Scots law. I am immensely proud of how that this will answer the question asked by the hon. Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, made Member for Orkney and Shetland, if that is allowed, that difficult decision. He knew that it would not be Mr. Olner. The Scottish Justice Secretary has the power popular in all quarters, and that there would be political to make decisions on a compassionate basis because of opposition to whatever decision he took, but he section 3 of the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings defiantly defended his quasi-judicial role and was not (Scotland) Act 1993. That Act requires that there be prepared to be influenced by external political pressures— solid evidence that a compassionate release should be rightly so. made. The grounds for compassionate release are given in the guidance about how such Dr. Palmer: In view of the pressures described by the releases should be made. I am sure that the situation is hon. Gentleman, and the intense political controversy, very much the same for UK Ministers in this House and does he believe that it is desirable for a politician, that they must consider all the available evidence when however honourable, to make that final decision? they come to make releases on compassionate grounds. Consideration has to be given to the recommendations Pete Wishart: I was just coming to that point. I noted from the prison governor and the Parole Board, and all that the hon. Gentleman said in his speech that such the medical evidence that is provided to support any decisions should be taken out of the hands of politicians. compassionate release has to be considered. In terms of We all have a certain sympathy with that position, but the guidance in the UK but particularly in Scotland, that is not where we were when the decision was made. there are no fixed time limits, but life expectancy of It was solely and exclusively for the Cabinet Secretary about three months may be considered an appropriate for Justice in the Scottish Parliament, as laid down in period. The guidance makes it clear that all prisoners, statute. It was his decision alone, and he made it not on irrespective of sentence length, are eligible to be considered economic, diplomatic or trade issues, but solely in the for compassionate release. interests of Scots law and the best values of Scottish In all the cases in which there has been compassionate compassion. release, but particularly in the case of the most important When an approach is made for a release on prisoner release decision that we have had, all the compassionate grounds, regardless of where that is in necessary criteria for consideration of release were met. the UK and regardless of which case it is, the Justice It is also important to say that very few appeals for Secretary in Scotland or the Cabinet Secretary in this compassionate release are turned down. Most are fulfilled. House has no option but to consider that request and According to the figures that are available, since 1999-2000 to make a decision based on all the available evidence all the applications for compassionate release in Scotland presented by the statutory bodies involved. In have been met. It would have been extraordinary, Scotland, in the case that I have been discussing, Kenny therefore— MacAskill followed due process, including all the procedures laid down in the prisoner transfer Maria Eagle: Would the hon. Gentleman like to tell agreement and in the Scottish Prison Service guidance hon. Members what the figure is in England and Wales on compassionate release. as well as the Scottish figure in that respect?

Mr. Carmichael: I am interested to explore with the Pete Wishart: I am sorry to say to the Minister that I hon. Gentleman the question of what he calls due do not know what that figure is, but I am sure that she process. Does he not accept that this is one of those will tell hon. Members when she has an opportunity to occasions on which the decision that is made is perhaps do so. of equal importance to the way in which it is made? On reflection and in the spirit of the candid and objective Maria Eagle: Some 28 per cent. of applications for analysis that we have undertaken this morning, does he compassionate release are granted in England and Wales. not think that it was regrettable that so much of the decision-making process was carried out in the public Pete Wishart: I am grateful to learn that particular eye? I am thinking of the visit to Barlinnie and the fact from the Minister. In Scotland, all applications that constant stream of briefing. That was inevitably going have met the criteria have been fulfilled, so it would to result in the scenes, which everybody deplored, of have been an astonishing precedent for the Scottish Megrahi’s return to Tripoli. Secretary to refuse the application in the case that we 209WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 210WH

[Pete Wishart] Let me talk about compassionate release in general. I do have some figures and they disagree with those given have been discussing, given that the criteria were met. by both my hon. Friend the Minister and the hon. He could have been accused of making a political Member for Perth and North Perthshire. According to decision, given that the criteria were met on all those my figures, in Scotland there have been 31 applications considerations and conditions. since 2000, from which 24 prisoners have been released The decision was taken because of the best interests on medical grounds, with seven requests denied—only of Scots law. Due process was absolutely followed in the one of those involved a murder. In England and Wales, release of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. No political factors 48 people have been granted permanent early release in influenced it. No decisions about trade or whatever the past five years, but there are no figures for the influenced the decision by the Scottish Justice Secretary. number of applications rejected, so I shall have to The other point is that it was made possible because accept my hon. Friend’s 28 per cent. Of those 48 people, Scots law is different from that in the rest of the UK, 14 were serving life sentences, so I have to ask my hon. and it is right that it is different. Our Justice Secretary Friend what about their victims’ families? Who was made the right decision for the right reasons to release thinking of them when those people were being released? Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, and Scotland has been shown Pete Wishart: It is fascinating that we are kicking in a good light in terms of the way in which we have around these figures once again, but perhaps the hon. been able to respond to that issue and the actions that Gentleman can tell us something for the sake of clarity. we took. Of the seven applications that were rejected in Scotland, how many did not meet the full criteria? 11.35 am John Robertson: The hon. Gentleman talks about full John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): I do criteria, and of course the full criteria would apply to not intend to make a long contribution—although it anybody who was released. If somebody was not seems to get longer every time I write a note. First, I released—I talked about whether somebody would receive congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe better medical attention within the prison system or (Dr. Palmer) on securing this important debate. Anybody without it—he would say that they did not meet the who knows me knows that in all my time in Parliament criteria. I would be more inclined to ask whether they and before that, I have always tried to voice my backing had the criteria to make the application. If that were the for the victim of any form of injury and for the family case, my figures would be right and his figures would be of any victim who is killed. I was sorry that the hon. wrong. It is an argument that we could go to and fro Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) with, which in the end would mean absolutely nothing. spent so long talking about the Megrahi case. Suffice it to say that I disagree with everything that he said. I feel Mr. Bill Olner (in the Chair): Order. We will not go that the 270 people who were killed on that day and through that argument in the debate today. their families deserve a bit more than somebody being released. John Robertson: I apologise, Mr. Olner, and will continue with my figures. Part of the criteria—this applies on both sides of the border—is that the person who is released can receive In Northern Ireland 248 prisoners have to date been better treatment somewhere else. I would argue that the released under the Good Friday agreement. Of those, treatment in Scotland would be a lot better than the 78 were convicted of murder, 76 received life sentences treatment that Megrahi would receive in Libya. Therefore, and two were detained at the pleasure of the Secretary under that criterion alone, he should not have been of State. None was held solely on a discretionary life released. I had the pleasure of meeting some of the sentence, and eight were serving sentences for offences families in America and I can assure hon. Members that that they had committed in England. I wonder who their feelings are completely different from those expressed talked to the victims’ families about why those people by Mr. MacAskill when he made his decision. should be released. Could what I am concerned about happen more Dr. Palmer: Does my hon. Friend agree that one often? The warns that the number difficulty about the decision was that Mr. Megrahi of prisoners over the age of 60 tripled between 1996 and was released outside Scottish jurisdiction and the miraculous 2008, to make up about 4,000 of the 84,150 people in recovery scenario worries people? If he proves to be in prison in England and Wales. The trust states that that better health than was thought, there will be absolutely is due to harsher sentencing, and to DNA testing enabling nothing that the Scottish Government can do about convictions to be obtained years after crimes. Well, well. that. Now we are complaining about how many people are to be sentenced for crimes. I do not have a problem with John Robertson: My hon. Friend is right. We are two 84,150 people being in prison. If they have been convicted months down the line of what was basically a three-month of crimes they should be in prison. If we must build death sentence, according to the medical expertise. That more prisons I do not have a problem with that. said, the medical expertise was given before 20 August, We talked about the al-Megrahi case, but I shall pass when Megrahi was released, so we are not quite sure over it as I know, Mr. Olner, that you do not like us to how far down the road we are in terms of the three talk about it; it does not really matter. months. However, whether he dies before three months have elapsed or after, that is not really the argument. Mr. Bill Olner (in the Chair): Order. It is not a matter I believe that he should not have been released. That is a of my not wanting to hear the case discussed; I said personal belief. It is not a political belief. I have just only that it should be put in perspective. It was not in always felt that victims and victims’ families must be the jurisdiction of this Parliament, and the Scottish protected. Executive made the decision. 211WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 212WH

John Robertson: I apologise, Mr. Olner. I was totally I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe for in error in what I said, but people will get the gist of securing the debate, and I thank you for your indulgence, what I am trying to say. Mr. Olner. A constituent of mine has a daughter who is in prison abroad, who is not, unfortunately, being dealt 11.45 am with using the same criteria as we use in this country. She has been convicted on the ground not of having Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): committed a crime, but of being associated with the I commend the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) person who committed a crime. We have seen how in for bringing the debate, and for the way he framed its this country—I am referring to the al-Megrahi case terms. Some massive issues are involved. People who because it is the one that has had all the coverage— have spent their whole lives as jurists have struggled someone receives the best of attention and help from with the question of the purpose of the criminal justice solicitors and advocates, and generally from the system, so to expect a handful of MPs to come up with Scottish judicial system. It would have been the same if the answer after a 90-minute debate is a tall order; but it the crime had been committed in England or Wales. is a worthy debate, none the less. Unfortunately, I cannot get the same treatment for the The matter is of some public interest at the moment, daughter of my constituent, who is in prison in the as a consequence of the decision to release Abdelbaset Dominican Republic. al-Megrahi and, earlier in the year, Ronnie Biggs. We can tease issues from those cases that are of broader We must look at such things in the round. We are application and might assist us in establishing the criteria in effect releasing people who have committed murder—in that the hon. Member for Broxtowe rightly said were one case 270 murders—but my constituent’s daughter is needed. I shall from time to time refer to those cases, guilty only by association. I say that not because I know but in a way that I hope does not fall foul of your earlier the judicial system in the Dominican Republic but stricture, Mr. Olner. It is helpful to take lessons from the because it was written on the court record when she was practical for more general application. sentenced to eight years. I do not think that is fair, but we are more than a little fair to people in this country—we The debate is timely because the consequence of the allow them to be released if they are not well and are Biggs and al-Megrahi cases is that there is now a lively going to die. public debate. It is of supreme importance that there should be public confidence in the justice system. The I worry that if, as the Prison Reform Trust have said, maintenance and restoration of public confidence requires more and more people are living longer and getting to a clear set of guidelines—protocol, perhaps—for Ministers an age where they have no quality of life, we shall allow to apply when considering such cases. It also requires them to go free. If my wife had been in the aeroplane in that any such guidelines and protocols should be put in question and had been killed I should be very unhappy the public domain. It is important that the public should if a prisoner were to be released because he was going to see that there is a robust procedure that balances the die in a certain space of time, and was in effect to be often competing and occasionally contradictory interests given some luxury and help. We saw the television that the Minister must take into account when making scenes when Mr. al-Megrahi arrived in Libya, and that the relevant decisions. The public should have confidence was probably what got the Scottish public going. I do that that is done in a proper manner. not think that it was really the fact that he was let loose; it was more to do with the way it was portrayed in the When I intervened on the hon. Member for Broxtowe media. It was a disgraceful situation, and we need to to say that the purpose of justice is to effect reconciliation, examine that. I should have explained a little more. That purpose is the nirvana, which we may never reach, but we should I have said what I wanted to say. It is important that still have it very much in mind when we approach the Members of Parliament should understand what is entire subject. It is not relevant just in questions of early going on. I agree to some extent with my hon. Friend release. The interest of the victims, about which the the Member for Broxtowe that we must consider the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson) question of who makes the decisions. He seemed to spoke, should be uppermost for every party in the think that judges could do it, but the judges are the criminal justice system, whether police, prosecutor, Minister, problem in some cases, not the solution. I hope that I defence solicitor or advocate, or even the prison authorities. do not come before one now that I have said that, but I have never had great faith in our judicial system, and We are not concerned only about difficult early release what I have seen recently backs up my feelings. I do not cases, there are many routine early release cases. We do think that the decision should be down to one not, in any jurisdiction in this country, impose life individual. Kenny MacAskill has been vilified, rightly without parole. Therefore we accept in principle that no or wrongly, depending on what side of the political matter what a person has done, at some point the day divide we are on. He had to make the decision, but it can come when someone will turn the key in the door was not fair that he should do so. There must be a and they will walk free. better way to ensure that victims’ families are listened As a former criminal justice practitioner, my concern to, and are part of the process. If someone has been is that we do not deal well with the victims, whose found guilty and granted an appeal, and is still found interests are not always easy to identify and certainly guilty, I believe that he probably is guilty. If his case not easy to pursue. We should not—I offer this as a goes to another appeal we should not drag it out, but gentle stricture to the hon. Member for Glasgow, North- should allow it to happen quickly. Perhaps that was the West—confuse pursuing victims’ interests with giving problem with the al-Megrahi case. If the second appeal victims everything that they want. The symbol of justice had happened more quickly perhaps we would not be is the set of scales held up by Justicia, and she is having this debate. blindfolded because justice, we are told, is blind. That is 213WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 214WH

[Mr. Alistair Carmichael] The hon. Member for Broxtowe suggested that the gravity of the offence and the length of time that has an important metaphor for us to bear in mind, because been served should be taken into account. Although justice often requires us not fully to meet the different those are clearly considerations, I must gently tell him competing interests. that I am not persuaded that they should be primary considerations. I come back to the first principle that I Dr. Palmer: The issue is complicated enough, but elucidated—that we accept that everybody who is to be does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is also the imprisoned can be released at some point. Our focus possibility of collective reconciliation, as we have seen should be on the substance of the application for early in Northern Ireland. The figures that my hon. Friend release. As the hon. Gentleman suggested, we should the Member for Glasgow, North-West gave for the consider whether we have robust, independently obtained number of convicted murderers who have been released medical evidence about the prisoner’s condition. Thereafter, in Northern Ireland would be pretty unthinkable had it we should consider how we give effect to any decision, not been for the Northern Ireland peace process. There while respecting the feelings of the victims and families. will be situations where a collective decision is made to move forward, and the victims might have greater Dr. Palmer: Just to test what the hon. Gentleman has understanding for the releases that take place than they said, does he agree that the length of sentence is pretty would if an individual murderer were released. important, certainly in extreme cases? Let us imagine that I was suffering from terminal cancer and assassinated Mr. Carmichael: The question of collective reconciliation Mr. Olner. If I then applied for immediate release on is very interesting and runs to the heart of much of compassionate grounds, would there not be something what criminal justice is about. However, we can achieve a bit inappropriate about it? collective reconciliation only if the public have confidence in the criminal justice system. For whatever reason—there Mr. Carmichael: The assassination of our Chairman is no single reason, but a whole amalgam of them—too would certainly be a lot more than inappropriate. Evidence many of our constituents do not have confidence in the that pre-existing illness was a determining factor in the system as it operates today. commission of the crime and, in fact, part of the mens The hon. Member for Broxtowe outlined a number of rea would be a highly relevant consideration. However, criteria, and I want briefly to explore a few of them. I come back to the point that we cannot go beyond the One was the possibility of recall, which is important. general principle. With respect to the hon. Member for Perth and North My other point, to return to something that I said Perthshire (Pete Wishart), the issue was not fully taken earlier, is that it is not just the decision that is important, into account in the decision on Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. but how we reach it. My concern about the al-Megrahi If any of the outlandish possibilities that have been decision is that it has left a significant number of the discussed ever became a reality, that man would be Lockerbie families feeling more alienated than ever completely outwith the jurisdiction of the Scottish Justice from the justice system. In that sense, the decision is Minister. One option that could have been considered, regrettable. I have many friends in Lockerbie. In fact, I and which should perhaps have been considered with have friends who were living in a house on Sherwood more care and force, was release, but not release from crescent when Pan Am flight 103 came down. It had a Scotland. That is important because we are talking severe impact on their lives, the lives of their children about release from prison, not the end of the criminal and the lives of people in the surrounding area. Many justice process, and that is as true for people who are of the victims have been left feeling alienated. released on compassionate grounds as it is for those My concern, which I would like to be central in any who are released on licence in the normal course of protocol that is constructed, is that the decisions that things—it is not the end of the story, as the hon. we are discussing, being quasi-judicial, should be taken Member for Broxtowe said. in a quasi-judicial way, by which I mean that they should be taken beyond the public gaze. Judges do not Pete Wishart: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s send out press officers to address the press when they comment about someone from a third-party country make their decisions. We do not see pictures of judges’ remaining in the home country. Is he aware that in cars going into Barlinnie prison when judges go to response to the suggestion that al-Megrahi could have interview prisoners. It was wrong and inappropriate been placed in a hospice or in his former home at that others should have done such things. If the Minister Newton Mearns, the deputy chief constable of Strathclyde is to construct a protocol, that is the sort of thing that police said that the burden on the police would have she should be at pains to exclude. Such exclusions are been disproportionate and that 48 police officers would necessary here and in Edinburgh to restore public confidence have been required just to police that one man in that in our system. one setting? 11.58 am Mr. Carmichael: Again, we are in the realms of competing interests. Many people might feel that would Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is have been a price worth paying, given the damage to a pleasure to take part in this timely debate. I congratulate Scotland’s reputation when people saw flags flying on the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) on introducing the tarmac in Libya when al-Megrahi was returned. this issue, which it is important for Parliament to deal Although the people we are talking about should be with. I also congratulate him on not being unduly released from prison, it is important that there is no drawn into the high-profile al-Megrahi case, which is question of their being at the end of their involvement plainly not within the jurisdiction of this Parliament or with the criminal justice system. the Government. 215WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 216WH

It is important to focus, as the hon. Gentleman did, may also be considered where the prisoner is bedridden or severely on early release on compassionate grounds, and that is incapacitated. This might include those confined to wheelchairs, what I shall do. paralysed or severe stroke victims. Applications may also be considered if further imprisonment would endanger the prisoner’s [MR.ERIC ILLSLEY in the Chair] life or reduce his or her life expectancy. Conditions which are Given the title of the debate, however, it is important to self-induced, for example following a hunger strike, would not make some general comments about Government policy normally qualify a prisoner for release.” on prisoner release, which needs to be criticised. It is Further detailed criteria are given in the appendix to the important, although it has not yet been done, to clarify PSO. Reference is made to various factors, including the position in relation to release on compassionate the prisoner’s health, the benefits or hardships to him grounds, because that can easily be distorted in debate, and his family, the risk of reoffending, the length of the although I do not accuse the hon. Member for Broxtowe sentence remaining—a point that was made during the of doing so. However, because it often comes to light in debate—and any remarks made by the trial judge. the public domain in relation to high-profile cases, Another factor mentioned by the hon. Member for whether Ronnie Biggs or, in another jurisdiction, Broxtowe and by others is the views of the victim of the al-Megrahi, it is easy to lose sight of the reality. crime for which the prisoner is serving a sentence. We have already heard that 48 prisoners have been However, the criteria make no specific reference to that released on compassionate grounds over five years, and factor. The Minister may wish to comment on that that only 28 per cent. of applications have been granted. aspect of the criteria, which it could be argued is As for the timing of those releases, I understand that missing, and say whether it should be included. those prisoners who are terminally ill are likely to be released with no more than a day or two to live, unlike Dr. Palmer: Would the hon. Gentleman agree with those high-profile cases of which we heard. We should my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire recognise that the context is important. (David Taylor) that it is important that the victims are Compassion was mentioned throughout the debate, informed at least that the process is under way? It does and it is a key element of the criminal justice system. not always happen, with the result that those who might However, it is important that it is applied properly, be perceived as a threat by the victim, regardless of given the other factors and principles of the system that whether it is an accurate perception, are released at need to be taken into account. We must also consider what the victim will see as fairly short notice. the fact that the concerns of administration and cost can in many ways replace that important principle. In Mr. Burrowes: That is a good point, particularly in the debate arising from the high-profile cases, one concern connection with early release on compassionate grounds. is that many of those 48 prisoners were released ultimately In relation to the Parole Board’s consideration of for the benefit of administration, given the cost of such matters, I understand that a protocol was keeping them in prison with a terminal illness, as opposed published last month specifically to clarify victim to the cost of their being released and dying in a hospice participation in hearings. The victims can thus be clear or somewhere else with their families, a factor that the about their expectations, knowing that their voice can hon. Member for Broxtowe prayed in aid. It is important be heard through statements to be considered by the to know whether those decisions were based primarily panel. It also clarifies their ability to apply to attend on compassion. and present their statement in person. The protocol is We must also consider the criteria that are used. The welcome; it has been a long time coming, but it clarifies hon. Gentleman sought to submit new criteria, but the matters and provides a greater opportunity for the present criteria seem to be little different. I shall briefly victim’s voice to be heard. So far, whether in parole go through the criteria in Prison Service Order 6000, to hearings or elsewhere in the criminal justice system, the which reference has already been made. It outlines the victim’s voice has not been heard properly; indeed, they circumstances in which, in cases where the prisoner is are often the last to hear information that they should terminally ill, bedridden or severely incapacitated, early be the first to hear. That needs to change, so the release on compassionate grounds may be appropriate. protocol is welcome. In instances of terminal illness, there are no specified My party has yet to be convinced that change is time scales, something to which the hon. Gentleman needed. We recognise the significant role of the Parole referred, but the PSO suggests that release may be Board, and it is important that its recommendations are appropriate where life expectancy is three months or respected. However, in exceptional cases—those that less. It specifically states: involve the most serious of crimes—the Secretary of “Early release may be considered where a prisoner is suffering State should have discretion, and there should be proper from a terminal illness and death is likely to occur soon. There are accountability so that he can make difficult decisions on no set time limits, but three months may be considered to be an individual cases. I disagree with the hon. Member for appropriate period. It is therefore essential to try to obtain a clear Broxtowe on the question of equating decisions by the medical opinion on the likely life expectancy.” National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence I note the hon. Gentleman’s reference to the fact that on health matters with those that involve serious crime. there should be two opinions; will the Minister confirm It is surely for the Secretary of State to take the onerous whether, to accord with the PSO guidelines, such a decision on whether to release someone early. medical opinion would require two medical reports? The PSO continues: Dr. Palmer: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the “The Secretary of State will also need to be satisfied that the parallel that I made was not between general sickness risk of re-offending is past and that there are adequate arrangements and crime, but between the political process that we all for the prisoner’s care and treatment outside prison. Early release accept is associated with jockeying for position, point 217WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 218WH

[Dr. Palmer] Under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, we have seen an estimated 20,000 prisoners released automatically halfway scoring and so on, and the rational process that we hope through their sentence. Some 70,000 prisoners have is made in all such situations? Does he not agree that been released early on home detention curfews, 4,000 of the furore about the Megrahi case was slightly unedifying, whom have gone on to reoffend. In the press, we have and that few felt that the outcome was entirely unrelated seen magistrates’ concerns about short sentences. Someone to political considerations? in Essex could be sentenced to 42 days on a Friday, but after the sentence is automatically halved with the provisions for home detention curfew and the problems of housing Mr. Burrowes: I hear the point that is being made—that a prisoner over a weekend, they end up being released, we can characterise the political process as jockeying turned round and given a grant for good measure, and point scoring. It does happen, but one cannot apply which undermines the confidence of both the magistrates that caricature wholly to political decisions made about and the public. release on compassionate grounds. I agree that such things must be dealt with in a clear and rational manner. John Robertson: I hear what the hon. Gentleman I would want to scrutinise those decisions to ensure that says, and I do not necessarily disagree with him, but they had been made rationally and clearly, particularly such a problem has happened to successive Governments. in high-profile cases, and not as a result of pressure Is it not a fact that we are convicting more people from the media. They should be decided on the because we are catching them? Nowadays with the use compassionate grounds and the other factors given in of DNA testing, it is easier to catch people. Is the hon. the PSO. However, as I said earlier, I do not wish to be Gentleman against that? Does he feel that people who drawn into the al-Megrahi case, as it does not come are convicted should go to prison or be let out? within the provenance of this debate. The Secretary of State’s decisions and the principles Mr. Burrowes: As time is running short, I do not want behind them must be governed and prescribed by case to get into a long debate about the Government’s policy law, including recent judgments by the House of Lords in relation to DNA and such like. There are more and by the European Court of Human Rights, which prisoners on the imprisonment for public protection restrict his decisions to being proportional, reasonable level who are serving sentences, thus putting pressure and fair. Therefore, taking all those factors into account, on the estate. The Government could have planned for I suggest that the discretion of the Secretary of State that. The Prime Minister was given the information should remain. However, it must be applied properly in back in 2002 and could have signed the cheque for more all cases—high profile or not. prison places. He took the decision not to do so, and I wish to make some more general comments about now we are all regretting it. the issue of prisoner release in relation to Government Finally, let me briefly mention the Parole Board, policy on prisons. I am sure that we all agree that when which has not been given enough attention in this a decision is made to release a prisoner, public safety debate. It plays a key role, but it, too, has suffered from must be the primary consideration. However, prison the Government’s failed policy on prisons. Capacity overcrowding has reached a crisis point. The number of challenges affect it, and as a result, its case load has prisoners has reached an all-time high of 84,702, which almost doubled since 2002. In March, the National is an increase of 25,000 since 1997, and is a problem of Audit Office reported problems of hearings being delayed the Government’s own making. Prison releases, beyond and prisoner risk assessments arriving late. It is important the specific case of compassionate release, are too often to take note of the concerns of the Parole Board’s chief motivated by consideration of prison capacity, rather executive. The board has been concerned for some time than a prisoner’s capacity not to reoffend. As I said in about the timing and quality of the information on my opening comments, it is important that we do not which it has to base its decisions and about the rate of simply deal with principles of administration, cost and deferrals in some cases. capacity and lose sight of the principles of compassion and, more fundamentally, of justice. Concern was also As the Parole Board makes important decisions on expressed about prisoners being released early without prisoner releases, it must have the proper information. the victims knowing about it, which leads to a loss of As I mentioned earlier, it is important, too, to inform confidence in the whole system. the victims and involve them in appropriate representations, so we must address the issue of capacity. We must ensure It is important that we restore honesty to sentencing that we have enough prison places to deal with those and that offenders are properly punished for their crimes. who commit crime. It is important to have honesty in Moreover, sentencing must be properly understandable, sentencing and a system of minimum and maximum both to the victims and to the public, and must ensure sentencing. The courts must know the minimum time that reparation and rehabilitation take place properly as that will be served up to the maximum time, and the well as fulfilling the important need for the prisoner to effect of earned release with appropriate conditions. We serve their crime. The Labour Government’s failure must ensure that prison governors have the powers to properly to plan and provide sufficient prison places make those initial decisions on prisoner suitability for has forced them into a policy of releasing prisoners earned release. Finally, we want to see prisons that have early and inappropriately. If we look at the current the purpose of real work and rehabilitation so that estate, which is at about 112 per cent. of capacity, with prisoners are ready to lead constructive, law-abiding some prisons at as much as 150 per cent., with 25 per lives and not reoffend. It is important that when prisoners cent. of prisoners doubled or trebled up in cells, we can are released, they have not been set up to fail so that they see that decisions are increasingly based on capacity end up coming back, having created more victims of and administration rather than on justice. crime. 219WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 220WH

12.15 pm should be adopted as to how they will exercise that power in practice. There has been a bit of a debate The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria about whether or not politicians should do that; there Eagle): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for has been a suggestion that it might be better if judges Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) on securing this important debate. did it, but there has been some disagreement with that He said at the beginning of his remarks that it was an suggestion. I do not think that there is any obvious or experimental debate. His own speech was extremely easy answer. However, on the question of specific prisoner thoughtful and non-partisan, which is what he said he releases on compassionate grounds, which are sometimes wanted the debate to be. I have listened with interest to controversial, as the debate today has indicated, there is the contributions from hon. Members. It comes as no an argument that the Secretary of State, who is accountable surprise that there are strong views about early release to the House and responsible for taking these decisions, of whatever kind. As various hon. Members have said, should do so in a quasi-judicial way. there have been some controversial cases recently in various jurisdictions of early release on compassionate Generally, that system has worked well, although I grounds, and which led people to consider the issue of accept the points that my hon. Friend the Member for when and under what circumstances that should be Broxtowe has made about the recent controversial cases. done. My hon. Friend discovered as much when he Most releases on compassionate grounds are not as consulted his own constituents and set out his suggestions controversial as those recent cases that have appeared in for criteria upon which such releases should be made. the newspapers. Of course, such releases can be upsetting to victims, which was the point that my hon. Friend the Let me assist the Chamber by explaining the legislation Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson) under which prisoners may be released on compassionate made. Even release at the end of sentence, which is not grounds. The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate made on compassionate grounds, can be very difficult, (Mr. Burrowes), in the less partisan first half of his both for victims who have suffered at the hands of speech, which I enjoyed a great deal—I did not think particular individuals and for those victims’ families. much of the second half of his speech—said that there I agree with the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland is a Prison Service Order and that there are criteria, (Mr. Carmichael) that, although the views and sensitivities which is correct. There is also legislation. It might help of victims must be taken into account and must be in the debate if I set out what that is. My remarks relate the mix, they cannot be an overriding consideration. purely and simply to the jurisdiction for which I speak, which is England and Wales, but not Scotland. There are some similarities with the rules and practice in Dr. Palmer: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Scotland, but they are not identical and I do not purport Minister for her thoughtful response to the debate. On to speak for the Scottish Justice Minister in any way. the issue of reoffending, one problem, which was not Moreover, I will address some of the points that have raised with me during my preparation for this debate, is been made and describe how the power has been used in that people released on compassionate grounds commonly practice. As a general principle, it is right that there go on to commit other offences. Does she agree that, in should be a power to enable the release of certain practice, it is very rare that such reoffending happens, prisoners in the most exceptional and compassionate because we are talking about people who are probably circumstances, such as if a prisoner is about to die. A staying in hospital or who are too ill even to contemplate number of Members have read out the existing criteria. carrying out other offences? It should be possible for that person to be released early to be with his family and to receive the appropriate care Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is right. I think that the at home or in a hospital or hospice during his final days. existing criteria are applied properly, and I know that a In practice, that often relates to removing the handcuffs great deal of care is taken to ensure that they are being and taking away the guards from the hospital room in properly applied in our jurisdiction. Many applications which the individual is going through the final part of that are made for release on compassionate grounds do his life. That is what that kind of release often means. not meet the criteria sufficiently and are not granted; The statutory authority itself is broad and simply provides only 28 per cent. of such applications are granted in that the Secretary of State may, at any time, release a England and Wales. Furthermore, prisoners who are prisoner on licence if he is satisfied that exceptional released on compassionate grounds go on to die; that is circumstances exist that justify the prisoner’s release on what they go on to do, generally. So, as I have said, my compassionate grounds. However, for prisoners serving hon. Friend is correct. a determinate sentence, the power is contained in the There is a further back-up, to which the hon. Member Criminal Justice Act 1991 or in the Criminal Justice Act for Orkney and Shetland made reference. Even when 2003, depending on the dates of their offences and prisoners are released on compassionate grounds, they which of those Acts govern their release. For prisoners are released on licence, so that if there is any subsequent serving life or other indeterminate sentences, the power doubt or concern about them they can be recalled. To is provided by section 30 of the Crime (Sentences) Act respond to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member 1997. I can assure hon. Members that a great deal of for Broxtowe, they cannot be recalled if their medical care is taken with every application for compassionate condition improves suddenly; that is not a reason for release. However, the primary consideration is, and will recall. In practice, however, that does not occur in always be—and this comes on to the point that my hon. respect of this type of cases; it has certainly not occurred Friend the Member for Broxtowe made about the criteria— in the past few years. Nevertheless, if such prisoners that it will not put the public at risk. present any risk to the public or if it starts to become The authority in this area is conferred on the Secretary clear that they are doing some of the things that my of State by Parliament, and therefore it is the Secretary hon. Friend suggested as examples of what they might of State who determines the policy and criteria that do—plotting a revenge killing, or harassing a victim—they 221WH Prisoner Release Decisions20 OCTOBER 2009 Prisoner Release Decisions 222WH

[Maria Eagle] public at risk. Furthermore, a decision to release would not normally be made on the basis of facts of which the can be recalled. There is absolutely no reason why, in sentencing court was aware at the time of sentencing. those circumstances, they cannot be recalled to prison, There has to be a development after sentencing that because they are out on licence. leads to a subsequent illness. If the sentencing court was Reference has already been made to the strict criteria aware of a person’s medical condition, it is fair to that we have adopted in medical cases. In such cases, the assume that that condition was taken into account in criteria are that the prisoner is suffering from a terminal the original sentencing. Therefore, that condition is not illness and that death is likely to occur soon, which is something that can be considered later, by way of some normally taken to be within three months, although, in type of pseudo-appeal to the Secretary of State. respect of the cases that I have dealt with in the Department, I therefore say to my hon. Friend the Member for death is likely to be much sooner than that. Alternatively, Broxtowe that there are criteria that must be met for the prisoner is bedridden or severely incapacitated, for release on compassionate grounds. It may be the case example by a severe stroke. that they are not generally known to the public; there is For prisoners serving a determinate sentence, the certainly some truth to that. It may well be that, in the policy allows for compassionate release where there are party political furore and game that occasionally tragic family circumstances. In practice, however, such a accompanies one or two of these types of decisions, the release hardly ever happens. Only 10 per cent. of applications criteria upon which the relevant justice Minister makes for release on compassionate grounds are made on the their decision are not at the forefront of the headlines basis of tragic family circumstances. Release in those that one reads in the ravenous media that report these circumstances would be granted only in extremely rare things. However, that is not to say that justice Ministers situations, which do not apply in the type of cases that in whatever jurisdiction they are responsible for do not we have been discussing. Furthermore, the Secretary of follow those criteria very carefully. The hon. Member State would have to be satisfied that any such release for Enfield, Southgate said very clearly—and I agree would not put the public at risk. with him—that there are other arrangements that bind the decisions that Ministers make, which are there to Prisoners serving an indeterminate sentence may be check that Ministers are making those decisions in a released on compassionate grounds only for medical rational way and according to the criteria that are set reasons. They may not be released for tragic family out and according to the statute as it is set out. Of reasons. For such prisoners, in addition to meeting the course, those decisions, like any other decision that a criteria of being terminally ill, bed ridden or incapacitated, Minister makes, are bound by those general considerations it is also necessary to establish that the risk of their of rationality and fairness. reoffending is minimal, that there are adequate arrangements for their care and treatment outside prison Generally speaking, we have had an excellent debate. and that their early release will bring some significant I do not know if my hon. Friend the Member for benefit to themselves or to their family. The figures for Broxtowe considers that his experiment with regard to recent years for such releases were correctly referred to this debate has succeeded. Nevertheless, I think that all by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, North-West the criteria that he has set out for considering release on in his remarks. compassionate grounds have something to be said for them. Some of them are already part of the current For prisoners serving an indeterminate sentence, the criteria that must be met for compassionate release. I Secretary of State is required by the relevant legislation think that those criteria can be established if anyone to consult the Parole Board, unless circumstances make seeks to do so. Individual cases are assessed according that impractical. The Parole Board is usually asked to to those criteria, and in my experience those criteria are provide a risk assessment before the Secretary of State assessed very carefully and on a case-by-case basis; makes a decision on release. That assessment will be there can be no general arrangement that would meet taken into account, along with all the other relevant all situations. material and reports from medical practitioners, and from prison and probation staff. I shall end by expressing some regret about the contribution by the hon. Member for Perth and North There has been some discussion today about whether Perthshire (Pete Wishart), which I thought was an or not one doctor’s opinion is enough. It is usually the unfortunate and partisan rant that sought to score treating physician, who is in a good position to know political points. It did not really succeed in its aim, what the situation is, who gives an opinion. In addition, because my impression, as I sat and listened to it, was there are often prison physicians, as well as physicians that he was protesting a little bit too much. He is not from outside the prison who give an opinion. Without himself the Justice Minister of Scotland. It is my observation conducting some kind of investigation, I could not tell that Mr. MacAskill, who is the Justice Minister of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe whether one Scotland, made it clear that he made the decision about or two medical opinions are usually given, but my al-Megrahi himself and did so alone. Mr. MacAskill suspicion is that there is usually more than one opinion can defend himself, and has done so in the relevant that is given; the report that is issued is usually the parts of his jurisdiction where he needs to do so—in the product of more than one doctor’s opinion. Having Scottish Parliament and in the court of Scottish public said that, however, the opinion of more than one doctor opinion. Mr. MacAskill hardly needs what I consider to is not required under the existing criteria. be the somewhat dubious assistance of the hon. Member There are also general principles that must be satisfied for Perth and North Perthshire, which, on the basis of by any application for release on compassionate grounds. his speech today, has not exactly been helpful to No prisoner may be released early if that would put the Mr. MacAskill’s cause. 223WH 20 OCTOBER 2009 Mental Health Services (New 224WH Forest) Mental Health Services (New Forest) constituents as well as his. I hope that the NHS trust does not underestimate the huge anxiety being caused to relatives who know the needs of the loved ones who 12.30 pm habitually come and go from the units. Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): Speaking in debates in the House of Commons is always a slightly Dr. Lewis: That point about the revolving-door nature tense occupation, but Westminster Hall is normally a of the service offered is crucial; I thank my hon. Friend more relaxed environment. Today, however, for the first for making it. I was about to say that Dr. Yonace time in Westminster Hall, I feel nervous. I know that on describes the closure of Ellingham ward as a potentially the outcome of this debate depends the future and fate catastrophic development if it becomes permanent and of some of the most vulnerable members of my community. the great team that runs it is broken up. That is not I am pleased that my colleagues, my hon. Friends the some politician sounding off; that is an extremely senior Members for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) and for professional who is intimately personally acquainted Broxbourne (Mr. Walker), both of whom have an interest with the hospital concerned. in the subject of mental health, have taken the unusual The people who run the Hampshire Partnership NHS step of coming along to such a short debate. It is a Foundation Trust—these organisations are customarily measure of the concern felt in the community about the honoured with such short and snappy titles—are not closure—allegedly a temporary one, for four months—of monsters. They are dedicated and civilised people. I have a psychiatric intensive care unit, or PICU, at Woodhaven spent time with Mr. Nick Yeo, the chief executive, and I hospital in my constituency. find him an empathetic character. What he says relates This is not the first time I have operated outside my not only to the Ellingham ward closure but to the comfort zone of defence and security concerns. Back in potential closure of a place called Crowlin house, again 1997, when I was a brand-new Member of the House, I in my constituency. Indeed, I believe I was involved in came second in the private Member’s Bill ballot. We all the opening ceremony only eight years ago. It is another know what happened to the person who came first: he effectively brand-new establishment. chose the important subject of banning fox hunting, a Crowlin house has had a reprieve for the moment, decision with which I happen to disagree. On the Friday but Mr. Yeo says that places such as Crowlin house were when that important Bill was debated, the Chamber opened initially to process people from the old long-stay was packed. A week or two later came my Bill, the mental hospitals that closed in the 1960s and 1970s. Mental Health (Amendment) Bill, to improve conditions I find that hard to understand, as there is rather a long for people suffering catastrophic mental breakdown gap between the closure of those hospitals and the and needing a safe and secure in-patient environment in opening of Crowlin house as a halfway house in the which to recover. Needless to say, because the debate community in 2000, but the idea is that such units are concerned desperately ill people rather than foxes, meant to look after people who are, hopefully, in transition attendance was down to the usual dozen or two hon. back to society but who have been institutionalised by Members. having been too long in in-patient facilities. One person who gave me invaluable support in preparing Mr. Yeo says that it is not the intention or the for that debate, which involved an issue in which I have objective that people should stay in PICUs for very no specialist expertise, was Dr. Adrian Yonace, an long. He says that the national guideline for the average independent consultant psychiatrist and fellow of the stay is 26 days, and that people have been staying as Royal College of Psychiatrists. Since then, he has become long as 40 days, or even 90 in a couple of cases. Mr. Yeo a personal friend. He is well acquainted with Woodhaven, has considered the overall figures for the four PICUs in the marvellous modern mental hospital built and opened the trust. The unit at Basingstoke has eight beds, the in my constituency, much to my delight, only five years unit at Southampton has nine, ours at Woodhaven has ago. six and one at Havant has eight. That makes 31 beds Woodhaven has two wards: a 24-bed acute ward, in all. containing a mixture of people who have voluntarily admitted themselves and people who have been sectioned; Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): My hon. and a six-bed PICU where the most seriously ill, difficult Friend makes a good point. We do not want to lock and challenging people are confined in a locked and people away in institutions. However, there will always regimented environment. Dr. Yonacedescribes Woodhaven be a need for acute beds. The problem is that if we get as an excellent local psychiatric service, with a PICU rid of acute beds, the threshold for admission rises, and alongside the acute ward so there is always the potential all too often very sick people are left out in the community, for interchange between the two units. I will have more which is not in a position to support them. to say about that later if I have time. Dr. Yonace says that the closure of the psychiatric Dr. Lewis: Indeed. It is supposed to be the case that intensive care unit will put great pressure on other people from PICUs are not discharged except to another PICUs, which are already bulging at the seams. He ward. After intensive care, they should be discharged to describes the intensive care ward team under Dr. Guy an acute ward and then, hopefully, back into society, Powell as widely known for its excellence in the care of perhaps via some sort of halfway house. If they do not the most acutely mentally ill, particularly helping those get better, they should go to a low or medium-secure who live in close proximity and their relatives. unit for a long-term stay. The problem is that although there is a guideline of Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): My 26 days and the trust therefore proposes to get by with hon. Friend will know that mental illness is no respecter 25 PICU beds rather than 31 by losing the six at of parliamentary divisions and that the unit serves my Woodhaven, the fact is that there is a long waiting list 225WH Mental Health Services (New 20 OCTOBER 2009 Mental Health Services (New 226WH Forest) Forest) [Dr. Julian Lewis] bed. None were free, so Ellingham ward’s admissions policy had to be reversed so that the patient could be for the low-secure unit at Southfields, in my constituency, admitted. If that had happened a week later, the situation which has 18 beds, and people cannot be shifted in the would have been impossible. way that theory dictates. That is why Dr. Yonace said Any bed that is freed up by somebody going to the that the system is bulging at the seams. PICU enables somebody in the community who is in I have been contacted by Rethink, which used to be serious need of a bed on the acute ward to have it. I said called the National Schizophrenia Fellowship. It is earlier that I would refer to such interchange. When a concerned that during the recession, mental health services crisis emerged in the acute ward, the staff and capacity will come under much greater strain: of the PICU were available to meet it. The reverse is “Rethink expects that different elements of the current crisis—home true: when someone was ready to come out of the repossession, debt and unemployment—will all take their toll.” PICU, but not ready to go home, they could go straight It is concerned because: into the adjacent acute ward. However, even the future of the acute ward is under threat, because who can say “Users of Rethink services appear to be experiencing greater what will happen to it when it is a small stand-alone financial difficulties and associated stress, which can trigger relapses”. hospital, albeit a brand new one? Another concern is that: On the night when the Ellingham ward PICU was “Mental health services in general face increased caseloads as a closed and everyone was shifted out, there was only one result of individuals experiencing mental health problems triggered free acute bed and one free PICU bed in the trust’s or worsened by straitened economic circumstances”. institutions, hospitals and organisations. That was at I have spoken to professionals from Ellingham ward the start of the weekend, when admissions are usually and Crowlin house, and to the relatives of people who higher. A small, windowless meeting room on Windsor have used those services. Crowlin house, which has had ward has been used recently to accommodate patients a temporary reprieve, is a small unit in my constituency on a put-you-up bed. In the two weeks since Ellingham where people with long-term problems are held in a ward was closed, that box room with no toilet or wash kind of halfway house in the community with round-the- basin has been in constant use. clock support. I have been told that such places are not Helen Barnett, whose brother was one of the five just for a transitory group, but are vital in caring for patients who were forced to leave Ellingham ward, has people at different points on a spectrum that extends met me and written to me. She has given me permission from the most grievously and dangerously ill, through to mention the case. She wrote that her brother was those who can go to acute wards, to those who are not ready to go back home but who need an environment “a patient on Ellingham Ward at Woodhaven Hospital until…he that will help them to reintegrate into the community. was suddenly transferred to…Royal South Hants Hospital.” She was As my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne said, no matter how far care in the community is taken, there “horrified to read of the proposed closure of Ellingham Ward will always be some people who need in-patient care or due to the under-utilisation of the beds.” at least to be surrounded constantly by specialised I do not accept that and nor do the professional medical support. Outreach teams usually visit somebody at home staff. twice a week for 30 minutes. When a person at home is She went on: seriously ill, the teams visit them once a day for 30 minutes. “He regularly requires the specific secure environment and That means that the person has 23.5 hours of every day treatment that Ellingham provides. When he is acutely unwell in a in which to cope by themselves. heightened elated presentation he can and has previously required When Ellingham ward was closed temporarily, there several months of a strict monitored regime that can only be were five people for the six beds. One of the patients offered on an intensive care ward.” went straight home. He was ready for an acute ward but She says that it is now more likely that he and other a bed could not be found, so, reluctantly, he was allowed service users to go home. Windsor ward, the 24-bed acute ward in “will be admitted to units that are not local to their existing care Woodhaven, was chock-a-block. The second patient team and where the nursing team will not have the personal went to another PICU in Basingstoke. His parents live knowledge of the patient that currently exists and which is locally and are worried about the distance and disruption. invaluable in the treatment of those with mental health conditions.” The third patient, who also went to Basingstoke, was so It is not as though extra resources are being found for distressed that he had to be manhandled to the car. His the active outreach teams. We have the strange situation normal home is in the west of the New Forest and his in which figures are being presented that are supposed elderly mother now has no way of seeing him unless the to show that there is spare capacity in the PICUs. That trust arranges it. The fourth patient went to Havant and is the basis on which these half a dozen beds can go. In the fifth to Southampton. There are lulls in the occupation fact, over the last two months, if those half a dozen of beds, but it is not true that there are always several beds had not existed, there would not have been enough empty beds among the 31 PICU beds in the area. This PICU beds in the trust area for 80 per cent. of the time jewelled operation in our community is being smashed. and we would have been struggling and in great difficulty. The PICU in Woodhaven was closed to new admissions on Tuesday 6 October, although some patients were still Mr. Walker: For any system to work, there must be there. By Friday 9 October, the PICU network in the spare capacity. trust was completely full. All acute beds in the trust were taken up and the system was in crisis. At 6 pm on Dr. Lewis: My hon. Friend is right. In this case, an the Friday, a patient on Windsor ward—the acute ward— inadequate capacity is being built in. I am concerned became very disturbed and had to be found a PICU that the system we are so fortunate to have in the New 227WH Mental Health Services (New 20 OCTOBER 2009 Mental Health Services (New 228WH Forest) Forest) Forest area is being dismantled on the same basis as the Dr. Julian Lewis: It is not in my constituency. mass closures of the ’60s and ’70s, even though the units we are discussing were designed for the people who were Phil Hope: Indeed. The trust has decided to close that not catered for by those mass closures. As for the highly ward and unit for four months. Given the brief time I specialist prize-winning team at Ellingham, it is being have left to reply and the local responsibility for the sent off to an adolescent unit, to a forensic unit and to decisions, I should say that I hope the hon. Gentleman’s other places where its skills will not be properly used. concerns will be read and heard by the trust, which will Those staff are just being used to replace other staff want to respond to the specific points he has made. I who will now not have to be recruited. understand that he met the chief executive of the trust I will conclude by saying that this is not a cheap shot, just last Friday, when he raised some of his concerns but it is worrying to have been presented with a long list about access to psychiatric intensive care units. I think of non-clinical posts that have been advertised by the he was assured by the trust that there are no plans to trust. In terms of annual salaries, the posts total more change the clinical thresholds for access to the units and than £1.25 million a year and include jobs such as: head that, indeed, the trust’s clinicians were confident that of consumer experience at £42,000, chief operating officer they would continue to ensure high-quality care. I know at £90,000, project manager at £39,000, interim deputy he has been invited to meet those senior clinicians and director of operations at £59,000, graphic designer at tour some of the trust’s services to see for himself how £28,000, associate director of contracting and commercial things are run. I hope that he will take further opportunities, development at £59,000, assistant communications manager apart from the one he had last Friday, to meet the trust at £28,000, human resources principal workforce information and present the points he is making. data analyst at £34,000, and so on. It has also been Let me make it clear, and in so doing reassure all hon. reported—this has been taken badly by the community Members who have contributed to this short debate, and I give credit to the Southern Daily Echo for exposing that these temporary closures will not jeopardise the it—that, while all these closures have been going on, recovery of existing patients and will not lead to a bed part-time health chiefs in the trust have had some very crisis or a drop in the quality of care, as the hon. nice pay rises indeed. Gentleman fears. The temporary closure of the two I think it obvious from my remarks that I have had units is in line with wider plans to transform mental information from people who are directly involved in health care in Hampshire. workingforthetrustontheclinicalside—nottheadministrative In keeping with many trusts across the country, side. I hope that there will be no question of any form of Hampshire has been on a journey in relation to mental recrimination, victimisation or career disadvantage against health services and the trust deserves credit, not criticism, those people who have spoken out. I was absolutely for thinking progressively about how mental health can thrilled when Woodhaven opened in my constituency. be improved across the region. In particular, it has The problem is being driven by cuts, but it is being recognised that some patients in Hampshire have spent dressed up as the dogma of being the means of coming more time in in-patient rehabilitation units and psychiatric into the modern world and bringing people into the intensive care beds than is recommended. For example, community more. We have done all that and we were an audit taken this September found that the average right to do it; but even then, it was recognised that the length of stay in psychiatric intensive care units in the pendulum could have swung too far. The wonderful trust was 40 days, compared with a national average of system we have, of which we are so proud in the New just 26 days. Forest, must not be dismantled. I look to the Minister to reassure me; but, more importantly, to reassure my The temporary closure also reflects the wider successes severely ill constituents and their extremely worried families. of Hampshire NHS in re-evaluating the way mental health services are delivered locally, and shifting away 12.52 pm from a ward-centred, in-patient-focused model of mental health care. Opposition Members know that that is the The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil right direction of travel. We must get it right, but such a Hope): I congratulate the hon. Member for New Forest, model of mental health care is the right direction of East (Dr. Lewis) on securing the debate on a matter that travel as it means reassessing how services are used. is clearly of great concern to him and his constituents. Indeed, as he remarked at the beginning of his contribution, On the specifics of the PICU on the Ellingham ward, he has had a long and active interest in these matters. from April to June 2009 the average bed occupancy was Clearly the contribution and presence of two of his 94 per cent., and from July to September occupancy parliamentary colleagues and neighbours, the hon. dropped to just 74 per cent. The need for a level of Members for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) and for flexibility in the system was mentioned, and if we Broxbourne (Mr. Walker), shows the wider interest in consider Rivendale, from April to June 2009 its occupancy the issues he is raising. was 70 per cent., after which occupancy dropped to just I am sure that the hon. Member for New Forest, East 54 per cent. Those are the realities of the pattern of will join me in paying tribute to the NHS staff in usage of these services. Hampshire for showing outstanding energy and commitment to providing high-quality care for all patients, Dr. Lewis: I am sorry to cut into the short time I have including those with acute mental health needs. His allowed the Minister, but I have heard those statistics concerns are clearly fundamentally based on the current before and I am assured that there will always be lulls at action being taken by the Hampshire Partnership NHS some point. This was an atypical couple of weeks and Foundation Trust, which has decided to close the Ellingham for 80 per cent. of the time, if there had not been those psychiatric intensive care ward and the Rivendale six beds, the system would have been in crisis. He must rehabilitation unit, to which he did not refer— not rely on those figures. 229WH Mental Health Services (New 20 OCTOBER 2009 230WH Forest) Phil Hope: Those are the figures I have but as I said, Free School Meals the hon. Gentleman has the opportunity to challenge the trust in more detail in due course. On the reduction in demand for beds, there may be 1pm fluctuations because of changes that have nothing to do Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): with how the health service is managed. However, such It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, fluctuations are partly due to changes in the way acute Mr. Illsley. I am pleased to have the opportunity to and community services manage patients. For example, speak about this subject, which is very close to my changes in clinical practice mean that people spend less heart. From the start, I want to pay tribute to the time in psychiatric intensive care units before being Minister, who has played an important part in the discharged into more appropriate clinical settings. In campaign to highlight the importance of universal free line with the principles of the national service framework school meals. She hosted a visit to Hull so that we could for mental health, the trust and the primary care trust learn more about people’s experiences of the school have been looking carefully at how they can move care meals pilot there, which was prematurely and abruptly out of in-patient wards while crucially ensuring patient, ended by the Liberal Democrats when they took over staff and public safety. And they have been successful. the council. The growth in community-based services is helping to I am especially pleased that after much lobbying, it reduce the number of patients needing to be admitted has to be said, the Secretary of State for Children, and maintained as in-patients for extended periods. As Schools and Families, my right hon. Friend the Member a result, demand is falling for in-patient services and for Normanton (), agreed to fund a free school increasing for community services such as assertive meals pilot in three areas: Newham, Wolverhampton outreach, crisis resolution and home treatment. That is and County Durham. I thank also my hon. Friend the in line with the Government’s vision for mental health. Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West However, the trust did not take the decision to close (Mrs. Hodgson) for the role that she played in getting the beds lightly and it will review the situation in that free school meals pilot. Our campaign was also January 2010. The closures were necessary to maintain helpfully supported by the GMB union, Unison and the the quality and safety of services for patients and to End Child Poverty alliance. ensure sustainable working conditions for staff. I would My mother was a school cook, so I have always like to take this opportunity to assure the hon. Gentleman believed that the quality of what children eat at school that these moves are part of the patients’ care plans, is extremely important. I have watched, however, as which are developed and agreed with patients and/or over the decades, particularly the 1980s and 1990s, their carers. The decision was taken on the basis of successive cuts have led to more and more school kitchens patient and staff safety and was supported by senior closing and to a complete withdrawal of hot school clinicians and service directors across the trust, including meals in many areas. I instinctively thought that Britain medical and nurse directors. There has been no suggestion was not doing enough to support school meals, but I that patient, staff or public safety will be compromised. got the jolt to do something about it in Parliament after Hon. Members have talked about the pressure on I went to Sweden in 2006 and visited schools in which other psychiatric intensive care units, but there are local school meal provision was good quality, universal and PICUs that have enough capacity, and there has been a free. It was after I returned from that trip that the growing number of PICU bed vacancies across the serious lobbying for something similar to happen here trust. However, I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s concerns began. That experience in Sweden was quite extraordinary. about these matters, which he and his colleagues have Teachers there were rather bemused that we were so had a good opportunity to articulate. I hope that he interested in their free school meals, because they took takes future opportunities to address these issues with them for granted. They said, “When children go to the trust directly, so that he and his colleagues, his school, we provide a desk for them, somewhere to sit, a constituents who use these services, their families, carers chair, books and stationery, so why wouldn’t we provide and the wider community can be assured that patient food as well? They need that to learn just as much as and community safety and patient care always come they need a desk.” first. Those of us who have been pressing the case for free school meals have been helped enormously by Jamie Oliver’s school dinners campaign. His exposé of how little we spent on school meals, the variation in quality and the lack of nutrition in some packed lunches helped to raise the issue hugely and led to an increased investment in school meals and to new nutritional guidelines. The Government’s response to Jamie Oliver’s campaign was very welcome, but it was not enough. In most schools, including primary schools, only about half the children take school lunches. If Jamie Oliver is listening and if he would like to help us to extend the free school meals programme, his help would be very welcome. Other factors have also helped to raise the profile of this issue. We know that when many children start school, they have not learned at home the social skill of eating a meal around a table or the practical skill of using a knife and fork. Childhood obesity is an increasing 231WH Free School Meals20 OCTOBER 2009 Free School Meals 232WH problem, so it is important that healthy eating be not all terribly concerned about climate change, so we should only promoted but experienced at school. I was pleased note that food miles are also being cut, with enormous when the Government announced the pilots, and simply environmental benefits. Lastly, children are learning delighted when Durham county council submitted a bid social skills and how to eat healthily, which will hopefully to be a pilot authority. David Williams, the director of help us to tackle obesity in future. children’s services at Durham county council, and I want to take a minute or two to mention some Councillor Claire Vasey, who is the portfolio holder for recent statements from head teachers in the schools children’s services, and their team, deserve much praise where the pilots are running. Pauline Warren is the head for putting the successful bid together and, more teacher at Sacriston junior school, which has 175 children significantly perhaps, for identifying the resources to on roll, 154 of whom are having free school meals. implement the project in Durham. I congratulate them Before the pilot was introduced they served only 58 hot on the successful celebration event that they held with meals. She has said that everyone at the school is very Steve Cram this morning. But Phil Barclay, head of enthusiastic and positive; they all think it is a wonderful finance, deserves particular praise for the way in which idea. She said that it is good that children can try the the pilot has been implemented, so that a free school food to see whether they like it before asking for a full meal that meets high nutritional standards has been helping, and that lunch times are now a more sociable offered to each primary school child in the county since event, with the children all having the same meals and September, when the pilot began. sitting down together. In the few weeks since the pilot began, the results Judith Hodgson, the head teacher of Witton Gilbert have already been staggering. After the bid’s success primary school, said her school has 100 per cent. take-up was announced on 1 May, the county had only four and no packed lunches coming in. Interestingly, they months to get kitchens ready to extend capacity in the have clean plate awards, and because there is a competition, system. That was achieved using a Department for children encourage each other to eat up all their dinner Children, Schools and Families grant, money from the because tables can also get prizes. That is a really good primary care trust and big contributions from schools, addition to the pilot, and one that we had not thought and in some cases dioceses, all of which were put of before. Judith Hodgson reports very positive comments together in a fund of £3 million to upgrade school from the children and their parents. The children say kitchens. The lasting outcome has been that most schools they very much enjoy the meals, and the school says now have modern, high-quality catering facilities. that the cook is absolutely fabulous and has coped What has been truly amazing about the pilot, however, extremely well in getting to grips with the new kitchen, is the take-up figures. Currently, 86 per cent. of children and that everything is working smoothly. Everyone take up a school meal in the schools covered by the main from lunch time supervisors to staff and pupils are now county council contract, and the figure is 90 per cent. for converts. They very much like the new system. She says those schools operating outside the contract, whereas that the really good thing is that children are eating a last year, take-up was just 50 per cent. The county healthy meal at lunch time, and many teachers are council is confident that even the current high figures doing so too. will rise further. I am extremely fortunate because some schools in my constituency are operating at 100 per cent. We need the scheme to continue. I know that some take-up, which is truly extraordinary. Credit must be people will say we need to wait for the results of the paid to Taylor Shaw, the main contractor, which has evaluation. It is a great pity that we did not get the Hull done well to concentrate mostly on the quality of the evaluation before the Liberal Democrats cut the scheme food being produced, and has also risen to the challenge there. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will join of taking on more staff at very short notice. me, even at this early stage, in pressing the Chancellor to make money available so that local authorities that For those who are not yet convinced of the benefits wish to bid into a fund to extend and continue that of free school meals—I am sure there are not many out programme can do so. I know that this is not a good there—I shall highlight a few of them. Throughout the time to be asking for more money, with expected savings pilot areas, children in our primary schools are receiving on the way or savage cuts, depending on whom one a hot, nutritious, free school meal at lunch time. Take-up talks to. It is probably too much to ask for the £1 billion is high. In addition to the nutritional benefits, and there needed to extend the programme to all local authorities, are many, there is no longer any stigma in taking a free but at least having a fund that would allow local authorities school meal, because all children have them. Even though to bid for some money would be a start. the pilot has been running for only a few weeks, teachers are already reporting better concentration levels among We know that the Government must do more to pupils in the afternoon. tackle child poverty, and I know that Ministers are committed to that, but I think they have overlooked to a The economic benefits of free school meals are large extent the role that free school meals could play in substantial for parents. That has been particularly important an anti-poverty programme. They could be a very effective because the project has been launched in a period of measure in helping to tackle child poverty. Extending economic downturn. Not having to pay for their children’s free school meals is supported by the End Child Poverty school meals saves parents £8.50 a week per child. alliance, and I am pleased about its support. In particular, Many local parents have told me that the pilot has made it backed the case for extending the programme to those all the difference to their family weathering the recession. in receipt of child tax credits. That might be a start, so I Many families with two children in primary school are would like the Government to look at that. However, saving £633 a year. the universality of the system as it operates in the pilot Much of the food is sourced locally, so local businesses areas is the key to its success, and I hope the Minister and farmers are also benefiting from the programme agrees. I hope she will join me in pressing the Chancellor and, as I said, additional jobs have been created. We are to extend the programme to other local authorities and 233WH Free School Meals20 OCTOBER 2009 Free School Meals 234WH

[Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods] Families launched our two-year free school meals pilots in Durham, Wolverhampton and Newham. Those pilots, beyond the time frame currently allowed in the pilot backed up by £20 million of funding from my Department areas, so that all the parents in my constituency, and in and the Department of Health, offer free, nutritionally others, who have so warmly welcomed the programme balanced meals to all primary students in Durham and will know that it has a sound future. Newham. In Wolverhampton we are testing extending the eligibility rules for pupils whose parents receive working tax credits and have an annual income of up to 1.15 pm £16,040. I recognise what my hon. Friend says about the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, tax credit system, and I hope that the experience in Schools and Families (Ms Diana R. Johnson): I congratulate Wolverhampton will let us make a decision at the end of my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham the pilot to see whether there has been an effect on (Dr. Blackman-Woods) on securing the debate. She take-up. mentioned that she visited my constituency a while ago When I visited the launch of the pilot in Newham to look at the experience in Hull after a far-sighted with the Secretary of State in early September, it was Labour council decided to have free school meals in its clear what an impact the meals were already having on primary schools and special schools for three years, to the children and their parents. Just yesterday, I was in be evaluated by Professor Colquhoun of Hull university. Wolverhampton to see for myself a pilot scheme in a Unfortunately, as my hon. Friend mentioned, the pilot secondary school, and take-up there was increasing. was cut short because of the short-sightedness of the In both Newham and Wolverhampton, there are Liberal Democrat council that came in and abandoned positive attitudes to the pilots and a keen interest in the project. It is unfortunate that we do not have that them. That interest is shared by many local authorities evidence to look at, but I will talk a little about the who applied to take part in the pilot projects, and it is pilots we do have now, and hopefully we can draw important to note that local authorities already have the evidence from their experience. power to innovate and introduce free school meals in I, too, visited Sweden last month and spoke to school their area, if they so wish. I understand that under students about school meals. I concur with my hon. pressure from a Labour budget motion, Islington council Friend’s comments about school meals there—all children is about to do that. I am extremely pleased that my hon. take them and the meal is a very natural part of the Friend’s constituency of City of Durham is taking part, school day. and I ask her to pass on my congratulations to everyone One of the most important lessons we can teach our who has been involved in ensuring that the pilot started young people is how to look after themselves and on time. maintain a healthy lifestyle. A large part of that depends on eating a healthy diet, and the consequences of not Dr. Blackman-Woods: Would my hon. Friend find it having a healthy diet are evident. We know that an helpful to visit my constituency, in particular some of unbalanced diet directly affects not only children’s school the schools that have 100 per cent. take-up, to see how work, but their behaviour in the classroom and at home. effective free school meals are locally? Currently, 1.5 million children in the UK are overweight or obese, which means they are in danger of developing Ms Johnson: I am delighted to receive that invitation. serious medical conditions later in life, including type 2 Actually, I was about to say that having visited Newham diabetes, heart disease and cancer. We must ensure that and Wolverhampton, I would be pleased to go and see our young people know the value of eating healthy food for myself some of the primary schools in Durham and and choose to eat a sensible and balanced diet. My talk to the teachers and pupils to find out what they Department is taking steps to ensure that healthy school think about the meals. lunches are a cornerstone of our education system. We started the pilots because we wanted a robust and Generally, the Labour Government have recognised independent evaluation of the benefits to children of the importance of improving school food. That is why eating free school meals. We wanted to see whether we have backed significant investment—£650 million having a free healthy meal would reduce childhood between 2005 and 2011—to help support the cost of obesity and change eating habits at home, and whether healthy school lunches, to help build or refurbish kitchens school standards would rise. That information will lead and dining facilities for the excellent catering staff around us to a decision about the value for money in extending the country and to better support the development of the project. The design of the pilots focuses on encouraging training centres for the school food work force. healthy eating habits in children from a young age—in We recently introduced tougher nutritional standards primary school—and throughout their time at school, for school food, which will ensure that all primary, so that they are not tempted to eat junk food by the time secondary and special school pupils have access to a they reach secondary school. balanced meal, including lots of vegetables, salad and I want to speak generally about the uptake of free fruit. It is also worth mentioning that my Department, school meals. As my hon. Friend knows, the key is that working with the Department of Health, has schemes children and parents are fully behind the meals, and to ensure that at key stage 1 we have fresh fruit in our that the school is actively promoting healthy food and primary schools, and many schools also operate breakfast the benefits of a school lunch. There is clear evidence clubs to help give children access to good, healthy food that although most children who are eligible for free throughout the day. school meals take school lunch, there are still too many With regard to the free school meals pilots, as my who do not. Figures from the January 2009 annual hon. Friend will know, this September my right hon. schools census show that 16 per cent. of nursery and Friend the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and primary school pupils are known to be eligible for the 235WH Free School Meals20 OCTOBER 2009 Free School Meals 236WH meals but only 13.6 per cent. take them up, and 13.4 per Dr. Blackman-Woods: Does my hon. Friend accept cent. of secondary school pupils are known to be eligible that my local authority did an amazing job in getting a but only 10.3 per cent. take them up. It is vital that partnership together to put money into school kitchens? schools work with their local authorities and the School It was far-sighted of the authority to involve the primary Food Trust to ensure that those who are eligible for free care trust, the schools themselves and the diocese, because school meals know that they are. they all have an interest in children’s health.

Dr. Blackman-Woods: Does my hon. Friend accept Ms Johnson: That is absolutely right, and I pay that one of the reasons why children do not take up free tribute to the local authority, the diocese and the PCT. school meals is that they feel there is a stigma attached They are all key players in ensuring that we can deliver to them? Unfortunately, too many schools still single healthy school meals for our pupils. out in some way those who are having free school meals There are excellent signs that children and families as different from the others. What is so important about think that the meals are worth having. My hon. Friend the pilots is that free school meals are universal—everybody should take credit for that, as she fought hard to get a has them—and that is why we have seen such an free school meals pilot. I am pleased indeed that one of extraordinary rise in the take-up figures. them is in Durham. As I said earlier, I am very much looking forward to visiting Durham, hopefully later Ms Johnson: That was clear from my experience in this year. my constituency of Kingston upon Hull, North. When I shall turn to the issues my hon. Friend outlined on there were free school meals in primary schools, that the next steps for the pilots. I would like to be clear at was exactly what parents and teachers were saying to this stage that we are not making any decisions about me. The stigma attached to them in the past had gone, future roll-out. We shall test each pilot throughout its and that will be an important part of our evaluation of two-year process and a full evaluation will be carried the success of the pilots in Durham and Newham. out by the National Centre for Social Research. The In the pilots, we obviously focused on areas of the evaluation will determine whether the additional benefits country with deprivation and low incomes, because we resulting from the pilot offer value for money in terms felt that those areas were most likely to benefit from the of costs to schools, and it will also determine whether extension of free school meals. As my hon. Friend said, the current eligibility rules are right. they are a great way of putting money back into the In closing, I again congratulate my hon. Friend on pockets of the hardest hit in the current recession and securing the debate. I believe that we can all agree that of improving children’s health and fitness. However, we the health of our students is of the utmost importance. recognise that not all children in the pilots will be from I am glad that we are taking steps towards a healthier low-income families. We want to improve the health lifestyle for all our pupils and students—steps that are and educational benefits for all children, not just those already getting a positive reaction. It is important to from a low-income background. Not all children who monitor the pilots closely and to ensure that a full can afford school meals eat them, so it is right that the evaluation is made at the end of the two years. We need pilots test to see whether offering free school meals to keep good food for our children and young people helps children across a spectrum of families. high up on the agenda. On the early evidence about the uptake of meals, as Dr. Blackman-Woods: Would it make sense to complete my hon. Friend said, the pilots have been in operation the evaluation before the end of the two-year pilots? If only since September, but already positive feedback is local authorities are not given a signal early on about being received in local areas. As she explained, average whether their scheme will continue, it could be put in school lunch take-up is estimated to be about 80 per jeopardy. cent. in Durham, and I understand that around 10 schools are achieving take-up of 100 per cent., compared with Ms Johnson: As Minister with responsibilities for around 49 per cent. before the pilot started. school food, it is my intention to keep a careful eye on Opposition Members raised objections at the start of evaluation during the two years, and we shall use it as the pilots that many of the areas would not be ready for effectively as we can in discussions with local authorities. them because of the lack of kitchens. It is clear to me, I look forward to working closely with my hon. Friend from my hon. Friend’s experience in Durham and from on the issue as we continue to monitor the success of the statistics, that those objections were unjustified. the pilots. 237WH 20 OCTOBER 2009 Electoral Register 238WH

Electoral Register On the forms going through letterboxes in recent weeks, throughout Chelmsford and the rest of the country, people are invited to renew their registration on the 1.29 pm electoral register. The form asks people for their surname, Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford) (Con): I am first name and nationality, with the text in brackets pleased to have the opportunity to raise the crucial issue stating that this should be of ensuring that the electoral register, which is one of “as shown on your passport if you have one”, the engines that drives our democracy, is accurate and which suggests that if they do not have one they do not honest and works in the way in which it was designed to have to complete that part. I also suspect that, if they work. There is a problem in the country with regard to do have a passport and forget to complete that part of the integrity of parts of the electoral register, partly the form, it will make no difference to their registration. caused through ill-information and by deliberate abuse The notes on the reverse of that form say: of the system. I accept that this is a tricky and difficult “Who should be included on the form? Include the following subject that has to be treated with sensitivity. people: All residents from Great Britain and qualifying citizens of During the 2005 general election, one afternoon as I the Commonwealth, the Republic of Ireland and the European was canvassing in Waveney drive in my constituency in Union…who will be living at your address on 15 October 2009.” Chelmsford, a lady aged about 55 opened her door and That is fine. However, it does not say that qualifying told me that she would not be able to vote for me, even if citizens of the Commonwealth should put their names she wanted to—although she did not express whether on the register or renew their entry only if their status to she wanted to—because she could not vote in a British remain and live in this country has been regularised and general election. It came as a surprise to me. When I approved by the Government. asked her about that, she said that, notwithstanding the There is a similar situation in respect of the registration fact that she had lived in Chelmsford for 25 years and forms that people use to register in the first place. The had been married for 25 years to a Chelmsford man, she form mentions Commonwealth citizens and lists the was a Swedish citizen, so she was not legally entitled to relevant Commonwealth countries in great detail, but vote in a British general election, because she did not nowhere does it say, “but only if your residency in the have British citizenship. I accept that that is right, United Kingdom is regularised within the immigration because if she is not a British citizen she does not fit law.” Anyone who is not that familiar with our system into the rules and she will not be able to vote in a British will see that they come from a Commonwealth country—the general election. However, I am concerned that there form says that people “may register” if they come from are numbers of people in Chelmsford—it is not restricted a Commonwealth country—and will register, even if, at simply to Chelmsford; I suspect that in certain parts of that moment in time, they have no legal status to live in the country it is far more extensive—are putting themselves this country or are fighting hard to get a decision on on to the electoral register who have no right to do so, their remaining here reversed. More guidance should be because they are asylum seekers or economic migrants provided on both those forms, so that people cannot whose status in this country has not been determined. use ignorance as an excuse or claim that they misunderstood Even though they may have come from a Commonwealth the notes accompanying the forms and, in that way, not country, they are not entitled to go on to the electoral comply with the law. register. If someone puts themselves on the register and they The rules for those people qualifying to go on the should not be there, it is remarkably difficult to get electoral register say: them off. There are a number of ways in which such a “Commonwealth citizens who are resident in the UK qualify person can be discovered: just by talking with neighbours, to be registered if they do not require leave to remain in the UK, and so on, for example, although it would be incredibly or if they do require leave and this has been granted.” embarrassing for a neighbour or someone who knows Unfortunately, there are individuals who have come to the person to report them. Members of Parliament can this country seeking indefinite leave to remain who have find out relatively easily whether someone should legally not yet had that leave granted or may have been refused be on the electoral register, but it is rather tricky to do it and are appealing against the procedure. They may so, because of the mechanisms by which one identifies even have a deportation order issued against them, individuals and the procedures that have to be adopted against which they are appealing. Such people may have to determine whether they should be, or remain, on the placed themselves on the electoral register and I have no register. doubt that in some cases they have exercised their right The electoral officer can look into the matter, as hon. to vote. I know of one definite case in my constituency a Members will know. Chelmsford is no exception in few years ago, in which someone with a deportation having an excellent electoral registration officer, whose order was not only on the electoral register but voted in team works hard. Those officers will be less than likely the last election. This is wrong, because these individuals to know if someone has registered themselves but is not are not entitled to vote. entitled to do so. I suspect that in most parts of the People who play by the rules—that is, my constituent country, few electoral registration officers find many who is a Swedish national—do not vote in a general cases where someone has put themselves wrongly on the election. This matter should be looked into and sorted electoral register. They do not have the time to find out: out, so that people who should not be on the register are it is a rather complicated issue. removed and denied the right to vote until their status If an individual finds out about someone who should in this country has been regularised so that they comply not be on the register, they have to go through a set with the law. I suspect that individuals sometimes put procedure to notify the electoral registration officer. themselves on the register through ignorance. This is They must make an objection to someone’s being on the the first issue that I would like to raise with the Minister. register in writing. The letter has to be signed and dated 239WH Electoral Register20 OCTOBER 2009 Electoral Register 240WH by the elector making the complaint and has to include boils down to someone’s immigration status, that must the name, address and electoral number of the objector, be fairly clear when the UK Border Agency informs the as well as the qualifying address, and everything, of the electoral registration officer of their current status, and person they are complaining about. That letter is, of I do not understand why it is necessary to go through course, in the public domain, which does not encourage that costly and time-consuming effort for a matter that people to draw to the attention of the authorities a is relatively simple. Does the Minister have any ideas for situation where an error, deliberate or not deliberate, improving and tightening the system without denying has been caused. That is a failing. people natural justice? I have a proposal to put to him. If an individual in Chelmsford, Swindon or wherever I think that I am right in saying that until changes were were to complain that their neighbour’s hedge was made, if a complaint was made against an individual on going on to the public footpath too much and needed the electoral register and it was not obviously a vexatious cutting back and trimming, the local authority would complaint, that person was automatically removed from write to the owner of the property where the hedge was the register until they could prove that they should be causing the problem and ask them to take that course of on it. I am not a lawyer, but that seems a sensible way to action. If the homeowner then telephoned to ask who proceed. If someone should be on the register and had made the complaint, the complainant would be wants to be on it, it is not difficult to prove their legal guaranteed anonymity and the local authority would status in this country, and that would speed things up. not disclose the complainant’s name. The final thing I should like to raise is a little more The Government have a social security benefit fraud complex and grey. What happens to Commonwealth hotline, and openly advertise the fact that confidentiality citizens of states that have been suspended from the is guaranteed. If an individual suspects that someone is Commonwealth? Are they allowed to be on the electoral defrauding the benefits system, all they have to do is register? Under immigration rules, a Zimbabwean may ring the hotline, provide the information and the grounds not be allowed indefinite leave to remain in the UK, but on which they believe that someone is defrauding the they may not returned to Zimbabwe for very good and system, and it will be investigated with anonymity correct reasons, given the situation in that country. guaranteed. In electoral fraud, which may often be However, the Government’s responsible attitude to that deliberate, why is anonymity not guaranteed? I suggest appalling situation should not mean that Zimbabweans that it should be guaranteed for a complainant, because may vote in a general election in this country. I suspect that might help to achieve an electoral register that is that the Minister will say that if a country is suspended, more accurate, fair and honest. and its citizens, who would not normally be allowed to remain in the UK, may stay here because of the situation If someone goes through those hoops, what is the in that country. He will say that until it improves and it procedure for trying to remove someone from the electoral is safe for them to return, they will be allowed to appear register if they should not legally be on it? The electoral on the electoral register. That is illogical, and I hope registration officer must determine whether that person that he will reconsider the issue. I am sure that the is on it illegally, and if their status in this country is Minister agrees that it is crucial that the system is not involved, the UK Border Agency should be contacted. abused, and that measures should be taken to tighten A few years ago, a local authority asked the Home the system and to minimise the opportunity for abuse. Office, which then had responsibility for such matters, I hope that my modest suggestions are both logical and to check on someone who was on the electoral register acceptable, and I look forward to his response. and voting in elections when they should not have been because they were fighting a deportation order. The local authority wrote to the Home Office, but after six 1.47 pm months it had not even received an acknowledgement The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael of its request for information. It then stopped pursuing Wills): I congratulate the hon. Member for West Chelmsford the matter, because October came along and the individual (Mr. Burns) on securing this debate. That is the usual concerned did not re-register. If that is UKBA’s record courtesy, but I mean it because the subject is enormously in responding to an electoral registration officer’s request important, and it is to his credit that he has gone into it for information on an individual, it is pitiful. in such detail and so thoroughly. I hope that I can Secondly, if the electoral registration officer receives provide some reassurance. such information, they must inform the person who The hon. Gentleman and I agree, as does every allegedly should not be on the register, who may call for sensible person in this country, that the integrity of the a hearing to argue that they should remain on it, even if electoral register is fundamental to our democracy. the electoral registration officer has a piece of paper Everyone in this country must have faith in the processes, from the UK Border Agency stating that, for example, so the register must be comprehensive and accurate; they have been refused indefinite leave to remain and otherwise its integrity is flawed. The Government have should not be in this country because they are an made huge efforts to ensure both. We have introduced economic migrant, or whatever the reason. Imagine the measures for individual registration, which place those legal fandango if people who were the subject of complaints two requirements—comprehensiveness and accuracy—at called for a hearing and lawyers became involved. It the forefront of the electoral registration system. would spin out the whole process, which would become It is worth noting in passing that the Electoral immensely costly, and I suspect that it would be months, Commission estimates that 3 million to 3.5 million if not years, in cases in which the lawyers were determined people who are eligible to vote cannot do so because to string things out, before a decision was made. they are not on the register. That is a huge problem, and Something must be done to improve procedures. Natural a flaw in our democracy. We must do more to tackle it. justice should not be denied, but if a decision on We have taken measures, and we intend to ramp them whether someone should remain on an electoral register up in the months and years ahead. I hope that the 241WH Electoral Register20 OCTOBER 2009 Electoral Register 242WH

[Mr. Michael Wills] of work will be further enhanced and electoral registration officers will have a further range of mechanisms at their hon. Gentleman agrees that that is fundamentally disposal. important. With every measure involving the register it is important to ensure that everyone who is properly Mr. Burns: The trouble is, though, that electoral eligible to vote should be able to do so. Equally, as the registration officers in most areas will not know that hon. Gentleman rightly said, the register is flawed if someone is on the register who should not be unless people on it are not entitled to be on it. He raised a someone tells them. There is a problem with that. For number of issues that I want to address. example, Members of Parliament are probably one of the groups of people who will be most likely to know, I assure the hon. Gentleman that the matter is extremely because of their dealings with those individuals and the serious. We have introduced a range of measures to UK Border Agency. However, given that people have to protect the integrity of the postal vote, and the introduction write to the registration officer to make the complaint, of a system of individual registration will make fraud which Member of Parliament is going to do that, given more difficult. It is also worth pointing out that recent that it might then get into the public domain that if studies by the Electoral Commission and the Association someone goes to see an MP on an immigration case, the of Chief Police Officers suggest that the incidence of electoral registration officer might get in touch with fraud is declining. It is mutating, but it is declining. I do them because they have wrongly put themselves on the not want to sound complacent for one moment. Even a register? single incidence of fraud is one too many, and even being on the register inadvertently, without out-and-out Mr. Wills: I was coming to the hon. Gentleman’s fraud, but perhaps because of a mistake in the process, point about the ability to report possible abuses is unacceptable for all the reasons that the hon. Gentleman anonymously. I see some merit in that; it is a perfectly gave. We accept that. Therefore we are never complacent reasonable point of view. I can say straight away to him and are always looking for new ways in which to improve that we will look into it, but in doing so we must be the system. That is why I am so grateful to the hon. careful to strike a balance. We must be careful to protect Gentleman for initiating the debate: we will be able to against malicious, vexatious complaints. They could be make some progress. made because of neighbour disputes; they could be Before dealing with specific points, I shall make some made for all sorts of malign reasons. I do not think at general observations about the process. The hon. Gentleman all that the idea is without merit. I want to look into it will be aware that under the Representation of the and I want to say some other things in a moment that People Act 1983, there is a duty on electoral registration will give comfort to the hon. Gentleman in this context. officers to maintain the register. That means that they must be responsible for its integrity. They must ensure Mr. Burns: I understand the point about balance, but that everyone who should be on it is on it, but also that that principle does not guide the Government’s own people who are not entitled to be on it are not on it. The social security benefit fraud hotline. vast majority of electoral registration officers are extremely diligent in discharging that duty. We have given electoral Mr. Wills: I was coming to that. I hope the hon. registration officers increasing powers to ensure that Gentleman will accept that these are categorically different they can do the job properly. It is not just a question of issues. Both relate to fraud and are extremely serious, the will; it is also the means to discharge it. In 2006 we and of course, there could be malign intent and vexatious placed a statutory duty on electoral registration officers issues in relation to social security as well. However, I to take all necessary steps, which include sending the hope he will accept that there is something else at play annual canvass form more than once, making house-to- regarding the electoral register, which is politics. This is house visits and inspecting records. a difficult issue and we must be careful that we do not open up our electoral system to being the plaything of The hon. Gentleman is particularly concerned with a party politics. That is all I shall say to him on the specific area, and I will come to that. He has raised the matter. question of illegal immigrants—people who are here illegally—people who are facing deportation and people This is not an open-and-shut case. As I said at the whose cases may not have been decided yet. None of beginning, we must be vigilant all the time. We must them is entitled to be on the register. There is no doubt never be complacent, and I give the hon. Gentleman my about that. If they are on the register, that is wrong. It assurance that we will consider the matter that he has may be a case of fraud or inadvertent error, but they are raised. I will come back to him on that and some of the not entitled to be on the register and there should be no other issues that he raised. I still have a few more doubt whatever about that. minutes to address them, but just in case I run out of time, let me say straight away that we will take up all If such people are on the register, they are committing those issues with his local electoral registration officer. an offence, almost certainly. We have given electoral We want to get to their experience of what has been registration officers guidance—they are regularly issued going on in Chelmsford. As a result of that, we shall with guidance—on how to identify fraud. They have the come to a view about what needs to change, if anything. power to investigate any registration at any time, and If he would like me to do so, I will then meet him to go they have the power to remove individuals from the through what we have found and the reasons why we register and report them to the police if they suspect have come to the decisions. That will be the start of a them of supplying false information, which, as the hon. dialogue if he so wishes. It will not be just me telling Gentleman will know, is an offence. As we move over him what we think. I will still be open to further the next four or five years to a system of full compulsory representations from him privately. Perhaps it will not individual voter registration, that existing programme be in Westminster Hall, but I am very anxious to pursue 243WH Electoral Register20 OCTOBER 2009 Electoral Register 244WH that issue and every other concern. I suspect that other the electoral registration officer is not satisfied about an MPs have similar concerns, and I hope that they will all applicant’s nationality, they have the power to require come to me as well. the applicant or the elector to provide specified documentary The hon. Gentleman referred to a local authority—he evidence confirming it. As we move to a system of did not name it—not getting a response from a Government individual registration, clearly much of that information Department. That is unacceptable in all circumstances; will have to be provided anyway, which is why it is such there is no defence for it whatever. It sounds as though an important guarantor against fraud. it is a historical case and it may not be worth pursuing. I shall touch briefly on the question of the Swedish If the authority wants to come to me, I will take the citizen who could not vote. I know that the hon. Gentleman matter up. Generally, it is worth sending a message to was not raising that particularly, but it is worth saying all local authorities that they should expect to get that we keep these things under constant review. Parliament replies from Departments, as every citizen should, but if has regularly expressed views on which foreign nationals they do not get them—sometimes Departments are not should be eligible to vote. It is always worth reminding as deft at dealing with their correspondence as they constituents—we all have constituents in the situation should be—they do have local Members of Parliament, of that Swedish citizen—that in the circumstances described, who should be able to get such responses and whom they would almost certainly be eligible for dual nationality, they can approach, so I would urge all of them to do depending on the regulations in their country of origin. just that. The situation is unacceptable and should not That would enable them to vote in this country. I would have arisen. have thought that if they wish to take a stake in this It is worth saying a little more about the powers that country by voting in it, the acquisition of nationality electoral registration officers have, because they are would be appropriate in those circumstances. It is always considerable and the hon. Gentleman, in his understandable worth responding to people such as that, because it is a concern about the issue, may have not quite registered frequent cause of complaint that I have; I see frequently just what powers are available to them. It is an offence as a Minister that people who have contributed a lot to give false information to an electoral registration and pay taxes in this country wonder why they cannot officer, and the penalty is six months in prison. It is not vote in general elections. There are avenues open to a slap on the wrist; it is a serious punishment for them to vote, should they choose to do so. something the Government take very seriously. Officers I hope I have given the hon. Gentleman enough can investigate any registration at any time. The Electoral comfort so far. This is not the end of the story. He has Commission’s guidance to electoral registration officers raised serious concerns and we will pursue them with makes it clear that if they have any doubts about the the electoral registration officer in Chelmsford. I will eligibility of any applicant, they have the power to come back to the hon. Gentleman on this issue as soon require any person to provide information relating to as possible—I am talking about weeks, not months—so the eligibility of that applicant: age, nationality, residence he will get a reply from me and then, if he so wishes, I and whether or not they are disqualified in any way. If will be happy to meet him and discuss any remaining the officer has any doubts about that, they can also concerns that he has. require the person to provide evidence demonstrating that they meet the requirements. 2pm Regulation 24 of the Representation of the People Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order (England and Wales) Regulations 2001 provides that if No. 10(11)).

49WS Written Ministerial Statements20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS Written Ministerial b) Financing of climate change Ministers will discuss and adopt conclusions on financing aspects of climate change in order to inform Heads at European Council. The UK is committed to making progress in advance of Statements the negotiations at the United Nations framework for climate change convention in December. Tuesday 20 October 2009 c) Financial supervision: state of play The presidency will give an oral report on the state of play of financial supervision in order to inform the European Council of progress made, in line with the request of the June European Council. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS European Systemic Risk Board Ministers will discuss the draft legislative proposals Letter of Credit Guarantee Scheme establishing the European systemic risk board (ESRB). As part of the wider package to improve financial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, regulation and supervision, the Government firmly support Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): My noble Friend the the establishment of the ESRB, which should assist Minister for Trade, Investment and Small Business (Lord with the identification of possible risks in the European Davies of Abersoch) has today made the following and global financial systems. statement: Strengthening EU financial stability arrangements ECGD, the UK export credit agency, today launched a letter Building on discussions at the informal ECOFIN, the of credit guarantee scheme to assist UK exporters by boosting Council will agree a set of conclusions on financial the availability of short-term export finance. stability arrangements, including cross-border crisis In the current economic climate, UK exporters are looking for management. The UK supports the conclusions as they secure forms of payment from their overseas buyers, particularly stand, and welcomes efforts by the EU to ensure a those in emerging economies. One of the most secure payment co-ordinated approach to crisis prevention, management mechanisms for foreign trade transactions is a confirmed letter of and resolution in order to promote financial stability. credit. Under this a bank in the UK guarantees payment to its exporting customer, provided documents stipulated in the letter Taxation: Anti-fraud agreements with third countries of credit issued by the buyer’s overseas bank are presented to it. a) Liechtenstein In this way, the UK exporter is able to eliminate the risk of Ministers will be invited to reach political agreement on a draft non-payment by its buyer. anti-fraud agreement now in its final stages of negotiation with By sharing with banks the credit risks associated with confirmed Liechtenstein. The Government look forward to making further letters of credit, ECGD aims to increase the amount of short-term progress on anti-fraud agreements, as part of the wider good export finance which the banking sector can make available to governance agenda, which links closely with work by the G20 on UK exporters. This is particularly important at a time when the tax transparency and exchange of information. overall risk appetite of the trade market has been reduced due to b) Other third countries the recent difficulties in the financial sector. The Council will be invited to consider a possible mandate for To start with, five banks—Barclays, RBS, HSBC, Lloyds TSB the Commission to open negotiations on anti-fraud agreements and Standard Chartered—are supporting the scheme and will be with Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Switzerland. The making arrangements in the coming weeks to allow exporters to Government welcome progress in this area, which should lead to participate. It will cover 282 overseas banks in 36 export markets. significant improvements in tax co-operation with these countries. More banks and export markets are expected to be added to the scheme. Equitable Life

TREASURY The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): Last week, I promised to update the House on the Government’s response to the judgment handed down ECOFIN on 15 October 2009 in the claim for judicial review brought by the Equitable Members’ Action Group. The The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): judgment was handed down last Thursday and I am The Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be now able to tell the House of the Government’s proposed held in Luxembourg on 20 October 2009. The following approach. items are on the agenda: The claim challenged several aspects of the Government’s Preparation for the G20 Finance Ministers meeting response of 15 January 2009 to the Parliamentary Ministers will discuss and agree a terms of reference Ombudsman’s report into the prudential regulation of which will form the basis of the EU’s contribution to Equitable Life. The Government have studied the terms the meeting of G20 Finance Ministers and Central of the judgment with care. Bank Governors in St. Andrews on 6-7 November. We welcome the Court’s rejection of the challenge to our decision to establish a scheme to make ex gratia Preparation of the October European Council payments to policy holders who have suffered injustice. a) Exit strategy These payments will be to people who have suffered Following progress made at the October informal ECOFIN, disproportionate impact, arising from maladministration Ministers will adopt a set of Council conclusions outlining the and resulting in injustice accepted by the Government. specifications for the possible design and timing of a co-ordinated fiscal exit strategy. The Government believe that while at this The Court accepted the Government were entitled to stage it is important to design such exit strategies, the priority is to seek Sir John Chadwick’s advice in establishing the ensure that the recovery is fully secured through full implementation scheme, and recognised that it is legitimate to consider of fiscal support measures. the public purse in its design. 51WS Written Ministerial Statements20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 52WS

The Court went on to identify three instances where the members of the Office of Qualifications and it held that the Government have focussed too narrowly Examinations Regulation (Ofqual) before Parliamentary on the issue of regulatory compliance. It found that a approval of both the specific enabling legislation and wider interpretation of injustice was required, and thus the necessary estimate. ruled that the Government would need to reconsider The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning their decision to reject the Ombudsman’s findings of Bill will, subject to Royal Assent, provide for the creation maladministration in relation to Finding 5 and of injustice of Ofqual, a new non-ministerial department. We plan in relation to Findings 2, 5, and parts of 4. that commencement of Ofqual should be on 1 April These three findings can be summarised as follows. 2010, before the summer 2010 examinations and national Findings 2 and 4 relate to the failure to ask and resolve curriculum tests round that begins in May. An open and questions arising from Equitable Life’s regulatory returns transparent appointment process to the board rightly for 1990-1996, in particular in relation policies around takes time and needs to commence now in order for the interest and bonus rates. The Ombudsman’s view was, appointments to take effect from 1 April 2010. The broadly, that any policyholder relying on these returns, appointment process will make it clear to applicants who suffered either a financial loss or a loss of opportunity that any appointments would be contingent on Royal to take an informed decision, suffered an injustice. Assent to the necessary provisions. Finding 5 found that, with regard to returns filed in Parliamentary approval for additional resources of 1995, the Government Actuary’s Department failed to £70,000 for this new service will be sought in a ask for the necessary information from Equitable Life Supplementary Estimate for the Department for Children, in order to ensure proper scrutiny of the company. The Schools and Families. Pending that approval, urgent finding also found that the regulator failed to correct a expenditure estimated at £70,000 will be met by repayable misleading impression given by these returns when it cash advances from the contingencies fund. knew independent observers were being misled. The Government have decided that, in the interests of speed and their wish to act fairly for policyholders, they COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT will accept the findings of maladministration in relation to Finding 5, and of injustice with regard to Findings 2, 5 Business Rates and those parts of Finding 4 dealt with by the Court. I have asked Sir John to include these findings within those accepted cases of maladministration resulting in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for injustice upon which he is advising HM Treasury. Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): This will expand the scope of his work, primarily by Following the motion “to regret that the Non-Domestic bringing forward the start date for the findings he is Rating (Deferred Payments)) (England) Regulations 2009 considering from July 1995 to July 1991 (the time regulatory (SI 2009/1597), laid before the House on 6 July, does returns first had the potential to mislead users), but not remove the retrospective application of a revaluation should not unduly delay it. His overall task remains the of non-domestic rates for port-side operators”, the same, namely to advise the Government on those Government are placing their response on record. policyholders who have suffered disproportionate impact The business rates deferral scheme, which these as a result of those cases of maladministration leading regulations established, is not aimed at businesses that to injustice which the Government now accept. The find themselves with significant and unexpected backdated Government remain firmly committed to introducing a rates liability, like some port businesses. Instead, this fair ex gratia payment scheme as soon as possible, scheme allows all ratepayers, who wish to apply, to get taking benefit from Sir John’s advice on the apportionment help with their cash flow during the current economic of responsibility and practicality of delivery, and having climate, by enabling them to spread increases in their taken account of the public finances. Our goal is to 2009-10 rates bills over three years, to 2011-12. introduce a scheme that is administratively quicker and However, there have been a number of debates over simpler to deliver than that envisaged by the Ombudsman. the past year which refer to the occupiers of properties In light of the timing of the judicial review judgment, affected by the ratings review of ports. The Government Sir John has extended to 27 October his deadline for have listened carefully to the concerns raised by affected representations to his 18 August interim report. His businesses that, as a result of the review, they are being task is considerable and complex, but he will advise as separately assessed for rates for the first time, and are quickly as he is able, including by providing interim now in receipt of unexpected and significant backdated updates and conclusions on a continuing basis. I will rate bills. update the House on his progress in due course. In the current economic conditions, the Government are concerned about the impact that significant and unexpected backdated rates liability could have on businesses. The ratings system has to be fair and equitable CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES to all, and waiving a tax liability for some would confer a disadvantage among other rate payers who have paid Office of Qualifications and Examinations Regulation their legally established rates. Given the present economic circumstances the Government believe that there is a general case to be The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and made for assisting all businesses liable to receive large, Families (Ed Balls): The Department for Children, Schools unexpected backdated bills that have to be paid immediately, and Families sought an advance from the contingencies as is the case with a number of companies, including fund to meet the urgent cash requirement of recruiting some port-based businesses, across England. 53WS Written Ministerial Statements20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

Therefore, the Government have put in place the NOMS senior management received the completed Non-Domestic Rating (Collection and Enforcement) investigation report on 2 October. The investigation (Local Lists) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2009 found that 11 prisoners were subject to temporary (SI 2009/204), to help all businesses, including some in transfers. Six were moved from Pentonville to port areas, to pay significant and unexpected backdated Wandsworth immediately prior to the Pentonville rates liabilities over a period of eight years. inspection (11-15 May), and five from Wandsworth to Pentonville immediately prior to the Wandsworth inspection (1-5 June). Several were known to be vulnerable JUSTICE prisoners, and two prisoners self-harmed during this process. The investigation found that the 11 transfers Temporary Transfer of Prisoners Prior to Inspection had been arranged as deliberate attempts to manipulate the outcomes of the inspections. The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor As a result, on 13 October disciplinary charges under (Mr. Jack Straw): Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of the Prison Service Code of Conduct were laid against a Prisons, Dame Anne Owers, has today published two number of individuals. Disciplinary proceedings are inspection reports concerning HMP Pentonville and currently underway. HMP Wandsworth. The inspections took place in May and June this year. During the course of the investigations, information A short time after the Wandsworth inspection, letters emerged to suggest a similar incident may have occurred were sent to the Inspectorate and HMP Wandsworth on in HMP Brixton. A further investigation is underway behalf of two prisoners, which indicated that prisoners and we are awaiting a formal report. had been temporarily moved out of the prison for the The Prisons and Probation Ombudsman and Her duration of the inspection. The implication of these Majesty’s Coroner are currently conducting separate letters was that the transfers were an attempt to manipulate investigations into the self-inflicted death of another the inspections to secure a more favourable outcome. prisoner transferred to Pentonville, following a court The Chief Inspector sent a team of inspectors back to appearance, in the week before the inspection, and held Wandsworth to examine the claims. That team also there during the inspection before being returned to investigated the involvement of HMP Pentonville, which Wandsworth. was said to have received prisoners temporarily from Wandsworth and to have transferred prisoners to I have now asked Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Wandsworth for the duration of its own inspection. Prisons to work with the Ministry of Justice Director Ministers and senior management of the National of Analytical Services to investigate whether the Offender Management Service (NOMS) first learnt of temporary transfer of prisoners prior to inspection is these allegations on 30 July when the chief inspector’s more widespread across the estate. The chief inspector’s team was undertaking further inquiries into Wandsworth reports have highlighted practices in two prisons which and Pentonville. The director general of NOMS, Phil are quite clearly reprehensible and neither justifiable Wheatley, immediately launched a formal investigation nor excusable. Those involved neglected one of their and wrote to all governors to reiterate that the temporary primary duties—to treat prisoners with decency and transfer of prisoners to manipulate inspection outcomes respect. As investigations and disciplinary proceedings is unacceptable. I issued a public statement reflecting are currently underway, there are obvious constraints Mr Wheatley’s message, and wrote to inform my Opposition until these are concluded. I will of course keep the counterparts of these investigations. House informed of further developments.

1323W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1324W

unit). These figures are for all contracts that are arranged Written Answers to through CPD (or, prior to 3 November 2008, the NIO’s procurement unit). Collating information on other Questions procurement contracts could be done only at disproportionate cost. Northern Ireland Independent Monitoring Board Tuesday 20 October 2009 Mrs. Iris Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many (a) employed and (b) self-employed members of the public are participating NORTHERN IRELAND in the work of the Independent Monitoring Board. Criminal Damages Compensation 1997 [293661] Paul Goggins: There are 13 employed and two self- Mr. McGrady: To ask the Secretary of State for employed members across the Independent Monitoring Northern Ireland how many successful applications Boards. under the Criminal Damages (Compensation) (Northern Ireland) 1997 Order in each of the last five years were made by (a) the Loyal Orange Order and CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT (b) the Gaelic Athletic Association. [292758] Circuses: Licensing Paul Goggins: The following table sets out the number of successful applications for (a) the Loyal Orange Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Order and (b) the Gaelic Athletic Association. Media and Sport what progress his Department has made in the development of a new licensing system for The Loyal Orange The Gaelic Athletic travelling circuses; and if he will make a statement. Order Association [293940] 2004-05 4 0 Mr. Sutcliffe: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I 2005-06 3 0 gave him on 14 October 2009, Official Report, column 2006-07 2 0 907W. 2007-08 12 0 2008-09 0 1 English Heritage: Fees and Charges 2009-10 (to date) 0 0 Total 21 1 Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what the (a) minimum, (b) average and (c) maximum price of entry to an English Departmental Procurement Heritage property was in each year since 1997. [292301] Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Margaret Hodge [holding answer 12 October 2009]: Ireland what percentage of procurement contracts (a) English Heritage has over 400 sites in its care of which his Department and (b) its agencies awarded to small around 112 charge admission. The remaining sites are businesses in (i) 2006-07, (ii) 2007-08, (iii) 2008-09 and free to visit. (iv) 2009-10; and if he will make a statement. [293244] For the purposes of this answer, English Heritage has provided data for the 104 sites that were consistently in Paul Goggins: The following table shows what percentage their care for the full period in question. The average of procurement contracts (a) the Northern Ireland price of entry to an English Heritage property, based on Office (NIO), including the Public Prosecution Service one full price adult ticket, in each of the following years Northern Ireland but excluding its NDPBs and (b) its was as follows: agencies awarded to small businesses in (i) 2006-07, (ii) 2007-08, (iii) 2008-09 and (iv) 2009-10. £ Constant Percentage Minimum Average Maximum sample of 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 charge charge charge sites

NIO282630131996-97 1.00 2.16 6.00 104 Forensic 201301997-98 1.10 2.26 6.00 104 Science NI 1998-99 1.30 2.48 6.60 104 Youth 70461999-00 1.40 2.61 6.90 104 Justice 2000-01 1.50 2.70 6.90 104 Agency 2001-02 1.60 2.83 7.20 104 Compensation 2000 Agency 2002-03 1.60 3.01 7.50 104 NI Prison 17 13 13 0 2003-04 1.80 3.24 8.00 104 Service 2004-05 2.00 3.48 8.50 104 2005-06 2.30 3.69 8.95 104 From 3 November 2008, the NIO contracted out its 2006-07 2.30 3.88 9.50 104 procurement services to the Central Procurement 2007-08 2.40 4.09 9.80 104 Directorate (CPD) in the Department of Finance and 2008-09 2.50 4.33 10.50 104 Personnel in Northern Ireland under a service level 2009-10 3.00 4.52 13.40 104 agreement (prior to this, the NIO ran its own procurement 1325W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1326W

Football: World Cup Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Commission has published statistics on remote gambling conducted by its licensed John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for operators since the changes under the Gambling Act 2005 Culture, Media and Sport what representations he has came fully into effect on 1 September 2007. received on the inclusion of Leeds as a venue in the Estimated figures are available for the second half of Football Association’s bid to host the 2018 World Cup; 2007-08 and for the full 2008-09 financial year as set out and if he will make a statement. [294016] in the following table:

Mr. Sutcliffe: The Football Association are leading in Estimated gross the bid for the 2018 and 2022 FIFA World Cups and are gambling yield (£ Estimated new player following a selection process to make venues available Time period million) registrations (million) for FIFA to select host cities and training venues. 1 September 2007 to 614.5 1.6 31 March 2008 Gambling Research, Education and Treatment 1 April 2008 to 31 896 4.9 Foundation March 2009

Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for These figures do not include amounts gambled on Culture, Media and Sport how much has been spent on sites located overseas by British residents but do include re-branding the Responsibility in Gambling Trust into amounts gambled on sites located in Britain by overseas The GREaT (Gambling Research, Education and residents. Treatment) Foundation; and how much will be spent on setting up a new website for the organisation. Holiday Accommodation [293878]

Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Research, Education Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for and Treatment Foundation (GREaT) is a registered Culture, Media and Sport whether his Department has charity funded through voluntary donations. Therefore, contributed to the impact assessment on the abolition it would be appropriate for the hon. Member to write to of the furnished holidays letting rules being carried out the chairman at The GREaT Foundation, 10 Brick by HM Treasury. [294594] Street, London, W1J 7HQ. Margaret Hodge: My hon. Friend the Member for Gambling: Licensing Stevenage (Barbara Follett) raised this issue with Treasury Ministers and wrote to them setting out the industries Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for concerns about these changes in detail. Culture, Media and Sport how many remote gambling My officials and I remain in discussion with Treasury licences have been issued by the Gambling Commission and HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) about the in each year since 2007; and how many such licensed impact of these rule changes on the tourism industry. remote gambling operators are regulated by the UK HMRC will be publishing their assessment of this together Gambling Commission. [293624] with draft legislation at the same time that the pre-Budget report is issued. Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Commission has provided the figures on remote licences issued in each of the last three calendar years. National Lottery

Number Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Remote Media and Sport what recent estimate he has made of Remote operating Ancillary Ancillary remote operating licences remote licences1 the administration costs of each of the National Calendar licences surrendered/ licences1 surrendered/ Lottery distributors. [294375] year issued revoked/lapsed issued revoked/lapsed

2007 189 2 366 4 Mr. Simon: My Department encourages the national 2008 96 29 56 38 lottery distributors to keep their administration costs as 2009 86 34 52 47 low as possible and to share best practice, and their 1 An ancillary remote licence allows a non-remote licence holder to provide latest accounts indicate that most have reduced their ancillary gambling facilities by means of remote communication in restricted operating costs in cash terms. However, as administration circumstances. costs vary considerably depending on the type and size As of October 2009, there are 306 operators holding of grant given and the amounts that applicants receive, a remote operating licence with the Commission and the costs listed by the distributors in their annual reports 385 operators holding a remote ancillary operating are not readily comparable between distributors. licence. These figures include 18 operators who hold both a remote operating licence and a remote ancillary operating licence. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what the income of the National Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Lottery good causes has been in (a) actual and (b) Culture, Media and Sport what the gross gambling real terms in each year since the National Lottery yield from remote gambling was in each of the last two began. [294646] years; and how many new player registrations for such gambling there were in each year since statistics have Mr. Simon: The information requested is provided in been collected. [293625] the following tables: 1327W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1328W

(a) Actual (cash) terms £000 Big Lottery Fund and Arts Sports Heritage predecessors Olympics

1994-95 58,693 58,688 58,691 117,396 — 1995-96 306,475 306,580 305,869 614,372 — 1996-97 314,924 316,730 316,623 637,746 — 1997-98 353,541 363,280 365,747 867,390 — 1998-99 281,714 302,742 310,209 1,021,756 — 1999-2000 264,733 276,000 291,820 902,980 — 2000-01 277,321 294,821 316,085 874,309 — 2001-02 295,442 301,776 320,324 900,322 — 2002-03 255,701 258,090 290,925 784,402 — 2003-04 229,020 227,294 246,318 687,757 — 2004-05 241,062 239,616 266,275 723,458 — 2005-06 245,059 244,000 270,119 732,537 16,525 2006-07 212,604 213,132 234,040 630,507 115,759 2007-08 217,040 217,040 217,043 651,124 151,229 2008-091 207,783 210,256 207,785 612,961 211,063 1 Provisional outturn, net of Olympic transfers totalling £73 million between National Lottery Distribution Fund and Olympic Lottery Distribution Fund (b) Real terms using GDP deflator £000 Big Lottery Fund and Arts Sports Heritage predecessors Olympics

1994-95 83,586.83 83,579.71 83,583.98 167,187.90 — 1995-96 424,274.94 424,420.29 423,436.01 850,518.45 — 1996-97 420,296.55 422,706.83 422,564.03 851,133.74 — 1997-98 459,806.99 472,473.31 475,681.83 1,128,106.75 — 1998-99 358,830.20 385,614.39 395,125.40 1,301,450.79 — 1999-2000 330,693.03 344,767.28 364,528.94 1,127,963.62 — 2000-01 341,924.15 363,500.85 389,718.39 1,077,983.13 — 2001-02 356,306.23 363,945.10 386,314.19 1,085,798.02 — 2002-03 298,744.04 301,535.19 339,897.42 916,443.13 — 2003-04 260,235.21 258,273.96 279,890.92 781,497.64 — 2004-05 266,511.15 264,912.49 294,385.91 799,834.16 — 2005-06 265,966.64 264,817.29 293,164.68 795,034.68 17,934.86 2006-07 224,112.16 224,668.74 246,708.48 664,636.06 122,024.98 2007-08 222,363.38 222,363.38 222,366.45 667,094.24 154,938.22 2008-091 207,783.00 210,256.00 207,785.00 612,961.00 211,063.00 1 Provisional outturn, net of Olympic transfers totalling £73 million between National Lottery Distribution Fund and Olympic Lottery Distribution Fund

Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much the National Lottery has Media and Sport what the cost of the National Lottery generated in sales in (a) actual and (b) real terms in Commission has been in (a) actual and (b) real terms each year since the National Lottery began. [294647] in each year since its establishment. [294649]

Mr. Simon: The information requested is as follows: Mr. Simon: The information requested is as follows:

£ million £ million FY ending March 31 Actual Sales Sales Real Terms FY ending March 31 Actual cost Cost in real terms1 1994-95 1,191 1,760 1999-00 3.6 4.5 1995-96 5,217 7,465 2000-01 5 6.2 1996-97 4,723 6,600 2001-02 3.1 3.7 1997-98 5,514 7,458 2002-03 3.3 3.9 1998-99 5,228 6,857 2003-04 4.1 4.7 1999-00 5,094 6,577 2004-05 4 4.4 2000-01 4,983 6,247 2005-06 8.9 9.7 2001-02 4,834 5,970 2006-07 11.4 12 2002-03 4,575 5,536 2007-08 8.3 8.5 2003-04 4,615 5,433 2008-09 5.8 5.8 2004-05 4,766 5,440 1 Costs in 2008-9 prices. Calculated using GDP deflators 2005-06 5,013 5,576 2006-07 4,911 5,265 Playing Fields: Planning Permission 2007-08 4,966 5,114 2008-09 5,149 5,149 Note: Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Real Terms calculated using the Retail Price Index Culture, Media and Sport how many times Sport 1329W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1330W

England has been consulted on planning applications Mr. Khan: The Government recently improved the on playing fields below 0.4 hectares in size since statutory minimum concession to provide free off-peak April 2009; and how many of those planning local bus travel anywhere in England for eligible disabled applications have been rejected. [293881] people and those aged 60 or over. There are no plans at present to extend the statutory Mr. Sutcliffe: In December 2009 Sport England will minimum to include companion passes. Under the publish the latest annual playing field statistics available Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007, local authorities for the year 2007-08. However, information on the have the flexibility to offer locally funded benefits over number of applications referred to Sport England as a and above the statutory minimum, including companion consequence of the change in definition of a playing passes. I believe that local authorities are best placed to pitch from 0.4 to 0.2 hectares will not be available until know about the needs and circumstances of their residents December 2010. and to decide on the most appropriate concessions to Sports: Facilities offer in their particular area based on their overall financial priorities. Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what proportion of sports The inclusion of companions to the entitlement is facilities in each region are listed on the Active Places not just a question of cost, but also of ensuring robust website; and how many unique users the website has and fair definitions of eligibility, mitigating against had in each year since it was set up. [293880] fraud and managing bus services’ ability to respond. The Department for Transport recently commissioned Mr. Sutcliffe: Active Places only lists certain types of some research on the cost and impact of options for sports facilities. It is therefore not possible to say what extending the current statutory minimum concessionary proportion of sports facilities in each region are listed travel scheme. Based on this research, the Department on the Active Places website as there are no figures estimates that it would cost around an extra £104 million available for this. per annum to extend the statutory minimum concession The number of unique users the website has had in to enable free companion passes to those older and each year since it was set up is as follows: disabled people who require them.

Number Cycling: Helmets 2004 59,660 2005 161,506 Annette Brooke: To ask the Minister of State, 2006 204,348 Department for Transport what recent representations 2007 218,378 he has received on the wearing of cycle helmets; and if 2008 114,270 he will make a statement. [294371] Source: Sport England Paul Clark: The Department for Transport frequently receives representations both for and against making HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION the wearing of cycle helmets compulsory. Parliament Square: Construction On Thursday 13 August, the Government responded to a petition submitted by Luke Griggs of Headway—the Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the hon. Member for North brain injury association—to introduce a new law to Devon, representing the House of Commons make it compulsory for children under 16 to wear Commission if the Commission will take steps to helmets while cycling. The response sets out the ensure that contractors digging up and closing Government’s position on cycle helmet wearing and can Parliament square and Victoria street do so as far as be found on the Number10.gov.uk website at: possible at times when the House is not sitting. http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20350 [294141] Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls Nick Harvey: Works in the streets around the Parliamentary Estate are controlled by Westminster city council and Transport for London. These organisations Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, are aware of the requirement that Members’ access is Department for Transport what studies his not to be impeded. The Parliamentary Director of Department has undertaken on the effect of the 50 per Estates will make representations to both organisations cent. toll rise on the number of vehicles using the on the need to minimise disruption to the House during Dartford crossing; and if he will make a statement. sitting times. [293865] Chris Mole: The Department for Transport has not TRANSPORT commissioned any specific studies to consider the effect Bus Services: Concessions of the recent changes to charges at the Dartford Crossing. However, the Highways Agency regularly monitors the Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, performance and use of the crossing. An impact assessment Department for Transport what recent assessment he was undertaken on the proposed changes when they has made of the merits of the introduction of were consulted upon. mandatory free companion passes for those who In a six-month period before the changes to the accompany blind or partially-sighted people on bus charges (1 April to 30 September 2008) 27,356,979 journeys. [292781] vehicles used the Dartford Crossing. In a comparable 1331W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1332W period (1 April to 30 September 2009) 27,054,297 vehicles The hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan used the Dartford crossing after the changes to the Ruddock) wrote to local authorities on 20 June 2008 charges. inviting them to come forward, noting that DEFRA would only release the name of any authority which Roads: Speed Limits came forward, at the point of an explicit expression of interest. Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what guidance he has issued Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Highways Agency on the imposition of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he expects temporary speed limits on main roads at times when to publish the summary of responses to his road works are not taking place. [294142] Department’s June 2008 consultation on draft guidance on incentives for recycling by households. Chris Mole: National guidance to all highway authorities, [294617] including the Highways Agency about applying temporary speed limits during the suspension of road works, is Dan Norris: A summary of responses to the formal given in Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 8 paragraphs consultation on “Waste Incentive Schemes: draft recycling D3.7.10 and D3.7.11. The guidance seeks to prompt service guidance” was published on 27 March 2009 and designers and operatives to remove speed limits when can be found on DEFRA’s website. cones etc. have been removed and there are no other risks which justify retaining the lower limit. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, organisations responded to his Department’s Department for Transport for what reasons a 50 miles consultation on the guidance on the operation of waste per hour limit on the A1 in the vicinity of the junction incentive charges for the collection of household waste. with the B1048 was in force in September 2009; and if [294629] he will make a statement. [294143] Dan Norris: The Department received 29 responses in Chris Mole: The 50 miles per hour speed limit was in total to its informal June 2008 consultation on incentives place in September 2009 on the A1 in the vicinity of the for recycling by households, which also included the junction with the B1048 for safety reasons, as the safety recycling service guidance. fence was incomplete and there were excavations along the verges for drainage repairs, as part of the A1 Eaton Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal Socon Bypass resurfacing scheme. The works and speed limit started on 4 September and will be in place until Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for completion of works in late December 2009. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment This scheme involves drainage repairs, resurfacing of he has made of the implications of the transposition of both concrete carriageways with low noise surfacing the revised Waste Framework Directive (Directive and the renewal of the existing safety fence. The works 2008/98/EC) on the municipal collection of household are carried out using overnight lane closures during the waste. [294454] week, and weekend full carriageway closures. Dan Norris: On 16 July 2009 my Department published a consultation paper on the transposition of key provisions ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS of the revised Waste Framework Directive. The provisions addressed in that consultation paper include those in Domestic Waste: Fees and Charges Article 11(1) on the collection of waste. The consultation paper contains an initial impact assessment. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for The consultation paper referred to is available on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his DEFRA website at: Department has issued any recent guidance to waste www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/waste-framework/ collection authorities on charging charity shops for the index.htm disposal of donated but unsold non-reusable household waste. [294558] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Dan Norris: On 12 October 2007, the Department for answer of 1 June 2009, Official Report, columns 8-9W, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs issued guidance on waste disposal, if he will place in the Library a copy to all local authorities on the classification and reporting of the WasteDataFlow returns of each local authority of waste. This letter included DEFRA’s interpretation for (a) quarter 3 and (b) quarter 4. [294456] of the Controlled Waste Regulations (1992) with respect to waste from charities and charity shops. Dan Norris: The WasteDataFlow data for quarter 4 of 2008-09, and the final data at local authority level for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for all of 2008-09, will be published on DEFRA’s website Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which local on 5 November 2009. In line with the National Statistics authorities have expressed a preliminary interest in Code of Practice, these data cannot be released before levying charges for the collection of household waste. this date. [294559] Provisional data for quarter 3 of 2008-09 is published Dan Norris: No authorities have yet come forward to at regional level on DEFRA’s website at: formally express an interest in participating in a pilot http://www.defra.gov.uk/evidence/statistics/environment/ waste incentive scheme. wastats/bulletin09qtr.htm 1333W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1334W

Provisional local authority level data for quarter 3 A joint waste authority (JWA) would be able to put can be viewed by registering to use WasteDataFlow at forward a proposal to pilot a waste incentive scheme in http://www.wastedataflow.co.uk/ its area if it had responsibility for waste collection. and downloading summary reports. These reports, including the background datasheets, are publicly available and Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for contain detailed data for each local authority. To print Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance out and put in the Library every data entry by each the Waste Improvement Network has published on the local authority in England could be done only at operation of (a) closed lid policies and (b) no disproportionate cost. side-waste policies for the collection of household waste. [294610] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether he Dan Norris: Neither the Waste Improvement Network proposes to amend (a) enforcement powers and (b) (WIN), nor the Waste and Resources Action Programme penalties levied in respect of household waste offences has issued any such guidance. consequent upon the coming into force of the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for [294548] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate (a) his Department and (b) the Waste and Resources Dan Norris: I do not propose to amend either the Action Programme has made of the average capital enforcement powers or the penalties. cost, excluding value added tax, of a household wheeled refuse container, including the cost of delivery. [294616] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for what reasons Dan Norris: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I no (a) impact assessment and (b) equalities impact gave to the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) assessment was conducted in relation to clauses in the on 20 July 2009, Official Report, columns 723-24W. Climate Change Act 2008 in respect of the statutory duties of waste collection authorities for the collection Marine Aggregate Levy Sustainability Fund of household waste. [294554] Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Norris: The amendment to section 46 of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what procedures Environmental Protection Act, made through the Climate are followed in deciding what research projects to fund Change Act 2008, provides a single point of reference in from the Marine Aggregate Levy Sustainability Fund. legislation for local authorities. As it was a clarification [294308] of published policy and not a new measure, consultation and development of an impact assessment were not Huw Irranca-Davies: The DEFRA chaired Marine deemed necessary. ALSF Steering Group agrees the strategic direction of marine projects funded by the ALSF and ensures that Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for they meet with the ALSF objectives. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent For the majority, the Marine ALSF Steering Group research has been commissioned by his Department commissions projects via open calls advertised on the into the (a) waste collection and (b) waste disposal MALSF website. All Expressions of Interest and full implications of the shift to mercury-based compact tenders are evaluated by a panel drawn from the Marine fluorescent light bulbs for domestic use. [294557] ALSF Steering Group members. There may also be occasions where a short list of contractors is compiled Dan Norris: I refer the hon. Member to the answer from previously submitted Expressions of Interest and given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, these contractors invited to submit full proposals at a Wavertree (Jane Kennedy) on 23 February 2009, Official later stage of commissioning. On a few occasions the Report, column 8W. Marine ALSF Steering Group may commission work by single action tender. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for All procurement and operation of evaluation panels Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent is governed by the Marine Environment Protection guidance his Department has issued to local authorities Fund procurement protocol and panel terms of references on the adoption of (a) no side waste policies and (b) contained within document “MEPF: who we are and no closed lid policies. [294560] how we operate” which is published on the MALSF website at: Dan Norris: DEFRA has issued no such guidance. http://www.alsf-mepf.org.uk/downloads/documents/mepf--- how-we-operate.aspx Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if his Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Department will accept bids from joint waste Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many authorities to participate in waste collection charge applications for (a) Collaborative Offshore Wind pilot schemes. [294608] Research into the environment and (b) Marine Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund project funding Dan Norris: Powers provided in the Climate Change have been made by the Centre for Environment, Act allow up to five local authorities to pilot incentives Fisheries and Aquaculture Science; and how many of to encourage household waste minimisation and recycling. them have been successful. [294374] 1335W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1336W

Huw Irranca-Davies: The figures for (a) Collaborative Dan Norris: The Waste and Resources Action Offshore Wind Research (COWRIE) and (b) Marine Programme’s grant funding for 2008-09 was £55 million. Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund-Marine Environment The cost of running the Waste Improvement Network Protection Fund (ALSF-MEPF) applications made by (WIN) for 2008-09 was £195,783. This cost covers delivery the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture of the WIN Website, the Waste and Recycling Mentoring Science are as follows: Scheme (WROMS) online conferencing tool, the COWRIE co-ordination of waste network chairs and the development Number of an online self assessment tool for councils.

Submitted 2 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Successful 2 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will place in ALSF-MEPF the Library a copy of the Waste and Resources Action Number Programme’s Waste Prevention Toolkit. [294469]

Submitted 28 Dan Norris: I refer the hon. Member for Meriden to Successful 17 the answer I gave on 13 July 2009, Official Report, Unsuccessful 9 column 16W. Awaiting outcome 2 Pesticides: Licensing Waste Management

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for : To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate answer of 9 September 2009, Official Report, column his Department has made of (a) the amount and (b) 1919W, on weedkillers, what recent discussions officials the percentage of waste sent to landfill abroad in each in his Department have held with representatives of of the last five years. [294056] Dow AgroSciences Ltd on the relicensing of the herbicide aminopyralid; and if he will make a Dan Norris [holding answer 19 October 2009]: The statement. [294385] UK Plan for Shipments of Waste, which sets out Government policy on shipments of waste, prohibits Dan Norris: The Chemicals Regulation Directorate the export of waste from the UK for landfill or other (CRD) of the Health and Safety Executive is the part of disposal operations with very few exceptions. Waste central Government responsible for the regulation of may, however, be exported for recovery, including recycling. pesticides, detergents, chemicals, on behalf of DEFRA Therefore, no such estimate has been made. Ministers. CRD officials had a number of contacts, as is usual, during the course of the consideration of recent applications for approval of two new products containing Weed Control: Avon aminopyralid. Mr. Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for River Lymington: Ferries Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment he has made of the effects on farmers incomes of Mr. Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for English Nature discontinuing the practice of weed Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he cutting in the lower Avon Valley; and if he will make a plans to take to protect the Natura 2000 site at the statement. [293148] mouth of the Lymington River from damage by commercial ferry operators; and if he will make a Huw Irranca-Davies: In 2004, the Environment Agency statement. [293175] gave notice to landowners and farmers that it would review mechanised weed cutting in the lower River Huw Irranca-Davies: Natural England is in discussion Avon in five years time. The review, which was undertaken with the relevant ferry operator over the action that can through a local partnership between the Environment be taken to avoid any adverse effect on the integrity of Agency, Natural England and fishery and farming interests, the Natura sites in the vicinity of the Lymington river concluded that there were no flood or nature conservation from ferry operations. benefits from the practice. Consequently mechanised Should Natural England advise that mitigation action weed cutting was discontinued. cannot be taken to prevent any adverse effects, the Secretary of State, in conjunction with Natural England, No assessment has been made of the implications on will consider what steps it might be appropriate to take farmers’ incomes of discontinuing mechanised weed to avoid any damage to the protected sites. cutting in the lower River Avon, although Natural England continues to give support and advice through Waste and Resources Action Programme Environmental Stewardship to farmers and landowners who wish to change their farming practice. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the total Mr. Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for annual cost to the public purse was of (a) the Waste Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what and Resources Action Programme and (b) the Waste expenditure English Nature incurred on weed cutting Improvement Network in the last year for which figures in the lower Avon Valley in each of the last five years; are available. [294459] and if he will make a statement. [293149] 1337W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1338W

Huw Irranca-Davies: Natural England (formerly English The disclosure document summarising the assessment Nature) is not involved operationally in weed cutting will be placed on this website shortly and a copy will be but does provide scientific advice on the likely impacts placed in the Library of the House. of this activity. Mechanised weed cutting on the River Avon System has been carried out by the Environment Agency as HEALTH part of its routine river management. Blood: Contamination The Environment Agency estimates the annual cost of weed cutting on the Lower Hampshire Avon over the Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health last five years to be in the order of £120,000 per annum. how many people have (a) died and (b) contracted This figure includes the direct operational costs (e.g. sepsis as a result of receiving bacterially contaminated staff time and equipment), indirect costs (e.g. proportional transfused blood components in the last five years; and costs for plant and consumables), plus additional costs if he will make a statement. [293867] such as those associated with liaison with local stakeholders. Costs vary year on year depending on how much weed Gillian Merron: Since 8 November 2005, the Medicines has been cut, the timing of the cuts, and patterns of and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) activity. has been the United Kingdom competent authority for the safety and quality of blood components for transfusion. Weedkillers In that time MHRA has received 14 statutory reports of transfusion-transmitted bacterial infection where the transfused component was identified as probably or Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for definitely the source of sepsis. Of these 14 reports, two Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will place in involved deaths. the Library copies of the reports his Department has received on the half-life of the herbicide aminopyralid. A voluntary reporting scheme Serious Hazards of [294487] Transfusion (SHOT), funded by the UK Blood Services, operates alongside the statutory MHRA system. Between Dan Norris: There is a range of information relating 1 January 2004 and 31 December 2008, SHOT recorded to the way that aminopyralid degrades in a variety of 13 confirmed cases of bacterial infection transmitted by situations. This information can be found in the disclosure blood components in the UK. Of these, three individuals document published by the Advisory Committee on died. Although both MHRA and SHOT actively encourage Pesticides. I will ensure that a copy will be placed in the participation in the SHOT scheme, it is possible that not Library of the House when it is published shortly. all reports to MHRA will be shared with SHOT, and there may be further clinical investigation of individual Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for cases reported via SHOT, hence the slight discrepancy Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will place in between MHRA and SHOT figures. However, the two the Library a copy of each item of correspondence schemes are working to reconcile their data. between Ministers in his Department and (a) Dow Dental Services AgroSciences Ltd and (b) the Advisory Committee on Pesticides in relation to the herbicide aminopyralid Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health exchanged in the last three years. [294488] whether NHS dentists are permitted to refuse to provide further treatment to patients if they do not Dan Norris: A copy of the requested correspondence attend for check-ups when advised to do so. [294353] will be placed in the Library of the House shortly. Ann Keen: Most dental practices choose to provide Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for ongoing care to their patients including recalls at appropriate Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent clinical intervals. However, once a course of treatment assessment he has made of the potential effects of is completed, patients are free to change practice. Equally, aminopyralid on human health; and if he will make a dental providers are not compelled as part of their statement. [294489] national health service contractual arrangements to offer further courses of treatment once the current one Dan Norris: The core data package for aminopyralid is complete. It is up to individual practices to decide was first considered by the Advisory Committee on whether to offer further courses of treatment to patients Pesticides at their meeting in September 2005. The who do not respond to advice on recall intervals. assessment has been published by the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) as part of the European Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for consideration of aminopyralid, and can be obtained via Health how many dentists were providing NHS their website: services in (a) Vale of York constituency, (b) North Yorkshire and (c) England in each year since 1997; http://dar.efsa.europa.eu/dar-web/provision and if he will make a statement. [294573] The Advisory Committee on Pesticides considered whether there was any risk to human health arising Ann Keen: The number of national health service from the misuse of that led to aminopyralid products (NHS) dentists, in England, as at 31 March, 1997 to appearing in manure earlier this year. The ACP considered 2006 are available in annex E and annex G of the “NHS that there was no unacceptable risk. The records of Dental Activity and Workforce Report England: 31 March these meetings (in May and June 2009) can be found on 2006”. Annex E provides information by strategic health the ACP website at: authority (SHA) and by primary care trust (PCT). www.pesticides.gov.uk/acp.home.asp Annex G provides information by constituency. 1339W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1340W

This information is based on the old contractual In addition to the order, the Government have also arrangements, which were in place up to and including introduced the Human Fertilisation and Embryology 31 March 2006. This report, published on 23 August (Statutory Storage Period for Embryos and Gametes) 2006, has already been placed in the Library and is (Amendment) Regulations 2009. These enable embryos available on the NHS Information Centre website at: that remain in storage by virtue of the order to benefit www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dwfactivity from the extended storage periods set out in the Human The number of dentists with NHS activity during the Fertilisation and Embryology (Statutory Storage Period years ending 31 March, 2007, 2008 and 2009 are available for Embryos and Gametes) Regulations 2009 provided in table G1 of annex 3 of the “NHS Dental Statistics they fulfil the conditions set out in those regulations. for England 2008/09” report. Information is provided for England and by SHA and PCT but is not available In Vitro Fertilisation by constituency. This information is based on the new dental contractual arrangements, introduced on 1 April Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of 2006. This report, published on 19 August 2009, has State for Health what guidance his Department has already been placed in the Library and is also available issued on the requirement to destroy embryos frozen on the NHS Information Centre website at: under the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act (a) 1990 and (b) 2008; what his policy is on embryos www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats0809 which have been stored for five years; and if he will Following a recent consultation exercise, this measure make a statement. [291817] is based on a revised methodology and therefore supersedes any previously published work force figures relating to Gillian Merron: The Human Fertilisation and the new dental contractual arrangements. It is not Embryology Authority (HFEA) code of practice provides comparable to the information collected under the old guidance for centres on fulfilling the requirements placed contractual arrangements. This revised methodology on them by the legislation. counted the number of dental performers with NHS As a result of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology activity recorded via FP17 claim forms in each year Act 2008 the statutory limit on storage for embryos has ending 31 March. been extended from five to 10 years, bringing it into line These published figures relate to a headcount and do with the storage period for gametes (sperm and eggs). not differentiate between full-time and part-time dentists, The Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Statutory nor do they account for the fact that some dentists may Storage Periods for Embryos and Gametes) Regulations do more NHS work than others. 2009 set out the criteria that must be fulfilled for storage periods to be extended beyond 10 years. Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill 2007-08 For embryos that had been in storage for more than Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health five years on the 1 October, where a five-year storage (1) if he will place in the Library a copy of each period applied to those embryos, the Government have document in his Department’s file EAX/036 Human made the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Fertilisation and Embryology Bill 2007-08; and if he (Supplementary Provision) Order 2009. The order permits, from 1 October, such embryos to remain in storage for will make a statement; [293282] 10 years from the date they were first put into storage. (2) if he will place in the Library a copy of each In addition to the order, the Government have also document in his Department’s file EAX/034 Human introduced the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Tissue and Embryos (Draft) Bill; and if he will make a (Statutory Storage Period for Embryos and Gametes) statement. [293283] (Amendment) Regulations 2009. These regulations embryos that remain in storage by virtue of the order to benefit Gillian Merron: We can confirm that the Department from the extended storage periods set out in the Human does hold these files. It will take some time to review the Fertilisation and Embryology (Statutory Storage Period information requested and assess what information can for Embryos and Gametes) Regulations 2009 provided be released. We will endeavour to do so within 20 working they fulfil the conditions set out in those regulations. days, which is the period of time that would apply had the hon. Member submitted his question as a freedom Low Birthweight Babies of information request. I will write to the hon. Member in due course and place a copy of my letter in the Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Library. what percentage of babies born alive had a birth weight Human-Animal Hybrid Embryos of less than 2.5 kg in (a) England, (b) each strategic health authority area and (c) each primary care trust Mr. Dhanda: To ask the Secretary of State for Health area in each of the last three years. [293187] if he will bring forward legislative proposals to amend Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. the Human Fertilisation Act 2008 to extend protection to embryos whose statutory storage period has expired; The information requested falls within the responsibility and if he will make a statement. [289162] of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Gillian Merron: Yes. The Government have made the Letter from Jil Matheson, dated October 2009: Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Supplementary As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Provision) Order 2009 which applies to embryos whose recent questions asking: statutory storage period had expired. The order permits, What proportion of babies born in each primary care trust from 1 October, such embryos to remain in storage for area of England were of low birth weight in the period since 1997. 10 years from the date they were first put into storage. (293188) 1341W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1342W

What percentage of babies born alive had a birth weight of less Gillian Merron: None. than 2.5 kg in (a) England, (b) each strategic health authority and The point has not yet been reached where it would be (c) each primary care trust area in each of the last three years. (293187) possible to undertake the secondary research from which a comparative assessment of the effectiveness of this The table attached provides the percentage of live births that were of low birth weight (less than 2.5kg) in: (a) England, (b) each relatively new therapy could be made. strategic health authority and (c) each primary care organisation area for 1997 to 2008 (the latest year available). Social Services: Leeds A copy has been placed in the House of Commons Library. John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Figures for 15 primary care organisations have been suppressed what steps his Department is taking to increase the because of small numbers, in order to protect the privacy of individual mothers and babies. provision of social care and support in Leeds West constituency; and if he will make a statement. [293946] NHS Foundation Trusts: Governing Bodies Phil Hope: The Department is investing circa £3.5 billion over this comprehensive spending review period to support Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Health improvements in the provision of social care. In particular, what estimate he has made of the average size of the the social care reform grant will provide an extra electorate of a foundation hospital governing board; £520 million for the reform and transformation of adult and what the average number of votes cast in elections social care, helping people to retain independence and to such bodies has been. [292564] exercise choice and control over the help they need. In 2009-10, Leeds adult social care received a total of Mr. Mike O’Brien: The average size of the electorate nearly £17.6 million of revenue and capital grant funding, of a foundation trust governing board is shown in table both specific and non-specific. Of this, Leeds adult 1. These figures are based on the 115 foundation trusts social care received £2.74 million in social care reform authorised on or before 1 March 2009. The average grant (revenue). Total grant funding by the Department number of votes cast in elections, referred to as aggregate to Leeds adult social care will increase to nearly £17.9 million election turnout in table 2, was collected by Monitor for in 2010-11. No data are available to identify the proportion the first time in 2008-09 and relates to elections held of this funding used to support people in West Leeds. between 1 April 2008 and 31 March 2009. The responsibility for the provision of adult social Table 1 care within West Leeds lies with Leeds city council and Average At year end Average 2009-10 2009-10 it will have worked with its local partnerships to inform (31 March) 2008-09 2008-09 (Estimate) (Estimate) and develop joint strategic needs assessment to identify and agree local priorities. Public 924,087 8,036 1,065,096 9,262 constituency Social Services: Tamworth Staff 420,783 3,659 432,340 3,759 constituency Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to increase the Patient 120,453 1,047 143,326 1,246 provision of social care and support in Tamworth constituency constituency. [292559] Total 1,465,323 12,742 1,640,762 14,267 membership Phil Hope: The Department is investing circa £3.5 billion Notes: over this comprehensive spending review period to support 1. Total foundation trust membership grew by 11 per cent. in 2008-09. improvements in the provision of social care. In particular, 2. Public membership grew by 14 per cent. and staff membership by 9 per cent. during this period, however, patient membership fell due to a number of trust the social care reform grant will provide an extra consolidating their patient and public constituencies. £520 million for the reform and transformation of adult 3. Foundation trust plans show forecast membership growth of 12 per cent. social care, helping people to retain independence and during 2009-10. exercise choice and control over the help they need Table 2 Uncontested elections In 2009-10, Staffordshire Adult Social Care received Aggregate a total of nearly £15.5 million of revenue and capital election grant funding, both specific and non-specific. Of this, Number of turnout Constituency elections Number Percentage (Percentage) Staffordshire Adult Social Care received £2.85 million in Social Care Reform Grant (revenue), which is set to Public 233 40 17 27 rise to £3.54 million in 2010-11. Patient 34 3 9 26 The responsibility for the provision of adult social Staff 86 27 31 19 care within Tamworth lies with Staffordshire county Total 353 70 20 26 council and it will have used Local Strategic Partnerships Notes: to inform and develop a Joint Strategic Needs Assessment 1. 283 of the 353 elections held were a direction competition between more than one candidate. in Staffordshire to identify and agree local priorities. 2. More than 125,000 members voted in these 283 elections. Swine Flu: Aviation Radiotherapy Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for he will commission research on the effects on swine Health what research his Department has evaluated on influenza transmission of the number of cabin air the effectiveness of stereotactic radiosurgery in the changes per hour during commercial flights; and if he treatment of low-grade brain tumours. [293970] will make a statement. [293601] 1343W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1344W

Gillian Merron: The Department via the National asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner to write to Institute for Health Research has funded fourteen research the hon. Member with the information requested and I projects related to swine influenza. None of these projects have seen the response. investigates influenza transmission during commercial Letter from Stephen Geraghty: flights. In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Aircraft cabin air in the majority of commercial Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive aircraft is exchanged and filtered every two to three reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child minutes, exceeding the minimum number of air changes Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance per hour that the World Health Organization recommends and Enforcement Commission. for healthcare facilities to prevent the transmission by You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how droplet nuclei of infectious pathogens. In addition, a long on average it takes the Child Support Agency to pass deduction of earning payments onto the recipient parent; and study published by the American Medical Association what steps she is taking to introduce (a) same-day and (b) in 2002 found no evidence that cabin air re-circulation same-week processing. [292105] increases the risk for upper respiratory tract infections Once the Child Support Agency has received the payment in commercial jet passengers. from the non-resident parent’s employer, the average length of The Department therefore does not have any plans to time it takes the Agency to process the payment and pass it on to commission research in this area. the parent with care is one day. Cash and postal orders can be passed on to the parent with care on the same day as they are received into the Agency’s bank. Many automated methods of payment such as child maintenance received from the non-resident WALES parent by direct debit are forwarded once the banking system has cleared the funds. In these cases the parent with care receives Departmental Training maintenance three days later on average. This process takes longer if payments are made to the parent with care by cheque. John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales It should be noted that employers are required to pass on how many external training courses have been attended maintenance deducted from employee’s earnings by the nineteenth by staff of his Department in the last 12 months; and day of the following month, parents with care may therefore what the cost of attendance at each such course was. experience a delay in receiving their first payment. I hope you find this answer helpful. [289695] Mr. Hain: Staff have attended a total of 18 external Employment and Support Allowance training courses in the last 12 months. The total cost for all 34 of those attendees was £16,094.19. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the average (a) cost of carrying out and (b) time taken to carry out a work capability assessment for the WORK AND PENSIONS Employment Support Allowance; and if she will make a statement. [294032] Carer’s Allowance: Birmingham Jonathan Shaw: It is not possible to supply the cost of Mr. Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work medical examinations. This is because if the information and Pensions how many people in Birmingham was disclosed it would prejudice the commercial interests Sparkbrook & Small Heath constituency (a) are of the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) entitled to and (b) receive carer’s allowance. [291566] and/or Atos Healthcare IT Services Ltd., the Medical Services contractor. This falls under the exemption in Jonathan Shaw: The information is in the following section 43 of the Freedom of Information Act. table. The time taken to carry out a work capability assessment Carer’s allowance—Birmingham Sparkbrook and Small Heath constituency (WCA) for employment support allowance varies dependant Number on the customer’s medical condition. This is because Total number entitled at February 2009 3,080 the examining health care professional’s (HCPs) aim is Total number in payment at February 2009 2,450 to obtain the necessary information that is required by Notes: the Decision Maker, whose task it is to make the decision 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. on benefit entitlement. The examination will therefore 2. Carers entitled to receive carer’s allowance may not be paid it because they receive an overlapping benefit equal to or greater than their weekly rate of take as long as necessary to obtain sufficient information carer’s allowance. for the purpose of determining entitlement to benefit. Source: DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study Incapacity Benefit: Appeals Children: Maintenance Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Alan Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the Answer of 29 June 2009, and Pensions how long on average it takes the Child Official Report, columns 1287-8, on incapacity benefit, Support Agency to pass deduction of earning what proportion of incapacity benefit claimants in (a) payments on to the recipient parent; and what steps she the UK and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber who had is taking to introduce (a) same-day and (b) same-week their claims terminated for failing a personal capability processing. [292105] assessment/own occupation test between December 2007 and November 2008 (i) appealed and (ii) had their Helen Goodman [holding answer 12 October 2009]: benefit reinstated on appeal. [290005] The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have Jonathan Shaw: The information is not held centrally. 1345W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1346W

Incapacity Benefit: Employment Support Allowance Jonathan Shaw: Following receipt of a claim, a Jobcentre Plus decision maker will decide whether the claimant Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work satisfies the occupational criteria for the prescribed and Pensions how many incapacity benefit claimants in disease. If the prescription is satisfied, a referral is made each region she estimates will be migrated to to Atos Healthcare who will request any previous X-rays employment support allowance in each quarter until and/or any relevant hospital letters relating to the condition. 2013; and if she will make a statement. [293578] All claimants are subsequently examined by a doctor working for Atos Healthcare. The doctor will, through Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is not a combination of history and examination findings, available. provide advice to the decision maker as to whether the We are still making detailed plans for the migration condition is diagnosed, and if it is, on the level of of existing incapacity benefits claimants to employment disablement with reference to a person of the same age and support allowance. and sex whose physical and mental condition is normal.

Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many assessors (a) there are and and Pensions what use her Department makes of the (b) there are expected to be in 2010 to assess (i) WOMAC index questionnaire in assessing industrial existing incapacity benefits claimants and (ii) new disease claims for coalminers’ beat knee and employment and support allowance claimants; and if osteroarthritis. [292768] she will make a statement. [293582] Jonathan Shaw: The Department for Work and Pensions Jonathan Shaw: Currently there are 526 health care does not use the WOMAC index questionnaire in assessing professionals who are fully trained to undertake incapacity coalminers’ beat knee and osteoarthritis. benefit (IB) medical examinations and 687 health care professionals trained to undertake employment and support allowance (ESA) medical examination. I can Jobcentre Plus: Manpower advise that Atos Healthcare are undertaking a training programme to enable health care professionals to undertake Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work both IB and ESA medical examinations. and Pensions how many dedicated mental health Projected figures relating to the expected HCP resources experts are working in the Jobcentre Plus network. for the year 2010 are currently not available. [294500] Industrial Diseases: Compensation Jonathan Shaw: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. and Pensions what percentage of claimants for Member with the information requested. industrial disease claims for coalminers beat knee and Letter from Mel Groves, dated October 2009: osteoarthritis were refused a claim in the first three The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question months of eligibility of claim for medical assessment. asking how many dedicated mental health experts are working in [292765] the Jobcentre Plus network. This is something which falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief Executive of Jonathan Shaw: Information on the number of disallowed Jobcentre Plus. claims for prescribed disease A6 (beat knee) is not We are introducing the post of Mental Health Coordinator available. within each Jobcentre Plus District. We currently have 42 coordinators The number of cases for osteoarthritis of the knee in post, with a further six to take up post in November. It is not decided following a medical examination was 375. Of our advisers’ nor that of the Mental Health Coordinators’ role to be expert in mental health conditions. However, the coordinators these 234 were either refused industrial injuries disablement have an important role in improving and facilitating links between benefit (IIDB) or refused an increase in IIDB. This local mental health organisations and employment services. They equates to 62 per cent. of claimants. also ensure that Jobcentre Plus advisers are aware of the mental health support available in their district for those customers who John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work would benefit. and Pensions what assessment her Department has made of the incidence of coactivity in claimants when Pensioners: Poverty assessing industrial disease claims for coalminers beat knee and osteoarthritis. [292766] John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jonathan Shaw: The Department for Work and Pensions and Pensions what recent estimate she has made of the has made no specific assessment of the incidence of number of pensioners living in poverty in Leeds West coactivity in industrial disease claims for coalminers constituency; and if she will make a statement. [293939] beat knee and osteoarthritis. The medical assessment in these claims would assess all the relevant loss of faculty Angela Eagle: Estimates of poverty, published in the and resulting disability from osteoarthritis of the knee Households Below Average Income series, only allows a or beat knee or both. breakdown of the overall number of people in poverty at Government office region level. Therefore, information John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for Leeds, West constituency is not available. and Pensions what health assessment process her Latest information for Yorkshire and the Humber Department uses to assess industrial disease claims for Government office region, is based on three-year averages coalminers beat knee and osteoarthritis. [292767] and is provided in the following table: 1347W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1348W

Pensioners falling below various thresholds of median household income, after publication hub. A copy of the publication has been housing costs, Yorkshire and the Humber Government office region, 2005-06 to 2007-08 placed in the Library and can be accessed directly on Number the following website: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca.asp Below 60 per cent. of contemporary median 200,000 household income The published data summarises work capability Below 50 per cent. of contemporary median 100,000 assessment results for employment support allowance household income claims up to the end of February 2009. The Department Below 60 per cent. of the 1998-99 median household 100,000 does not assess people on the basis of passing or failing income uprated in line with prices the work capability assessment. At the work capability Pensions: Costs assessment people can be assessed as falling into one of three categories: Support group (for those with severe disabilities)—they receive Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for a higher rate of benefit entitlement overall and exemption Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the from mandatory involvement with pathways; effect on the Exchequer of a change in the eligibility Work related activity group—they receive higher rate of benefit age for the state retirement pension for (a) men and than those on jobseeker’s allowance and are mandated to (b) women to (i) 66, (ii) 67 and (iii) 68 years. [293621] engage with Pathways to Work; Fit for work—individuals can ask for a reconsideration or Angela Eagle: Estimates of the net savings from appeal if they disagree with the decision. increasing State Pension age for men and women to 66, The following table summarises the published figures 67 and 68 as part of the additional benefit spend of the for Great Britain and the equivalent figures for overall package of reforms in the 2007 Pension Act Scotland. package of reforms can be found in the pension reform factsheet. The relevant tables are Figure 16 (spend in ESA on-flows October 2008 to February 2009 by result of medical assessment cash terms), Figure 19 (spend in 2007-08 prices terms) Great Britain Scotland Work capability and Figure 22 (spend in per cent. of GDP terms). A result Volumes Percentage Volumes percentage copy of the factsheet has been placed in the House of Commons Library and is also available at the following Support group 10,000 5 800 4 link: Work related activity 21,600 11 1,500 7 group http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pensions-reform-factsheet.pdf Fit for work 68,800 36 8,600 42 Work Capability Assessment Claim closed before 74,500 38 8,000 39 assessment complete Assessment still in 19,000 10 1,600 8 Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work progress and Pensions what her most recent estimate is of the Note: likely effect of the new Work Capability Assessment on Figures are rounded to the nearest 100 the proportion of existing incapacity benefit claimants expected to (a) pass the assessment and move into the work-related activity group of the employment and support allowance, (b) pass the assessment and move HOME DEPARTMENT into the support group of the employment and support allowance and (c) fail the assessment when they are 62 South Eaton Place reassessed between 2010 and 2013. [290731] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 9 September 2009]: Home Department on what date the home information When the new Work Capability Assessment is applied pack for 62 South Eaton Place was updated to reflect to existing incapacity benefits claimants, our initial the fact that the freehold was being sold with the estimates are that overall, around 65 per cent. will be leasehold. [293112] assessed to be in the work-related activity group of employment and support allowance, 20 per cent. will be Mr. Woolas: The Department has served notice under assessed to be in the support group, and 15 per cent. will the Leasehold Reform Act to acquire the freehold to be disallowed employment and support allowance. merge with its leasehold interest of 62 South Eaton These are working assumptions that will continue to Place so as to achieve better value for money on its be evaluated and updated in light of new evidence. outright disposal. Until the freehold is acquired the home information pack cannot be amended. : To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many and what percentage of Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the applicants in (a) the UK and (b) Scotland (i) failed Home Department whether a property information and (ii) failed with no points the work capability questionnaire has been produced as part of the home assessment in the latest period for which figures are information pack for 62 South Eaton Place. [294083] available; and how many of those in each category had their employment support allowance re-instated after Mr. Woolas: There was no legal requirement to prepare appeal. [293042] a property information questionnaire with the home information pack for 62 South Eaton Place. The sale Jonathan Shaw: National level statistics on the work particulars and supporting information held by the capability assessment covering Great Britain were published selling agent has met the requirements of prospective on 13 October 2009 and are available via the ONS purchasers. 1349W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1350W

Alcoholic Drinks: Crime Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 9 September 2009]: The latest available published data on the number of Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued covers the the Home Department how many shopkeepers were period 1 April 1999 to 31 December 2007 and are not prosecuted in (a) England, (b) West Yorkshire and (c) available below Criminal Justice System (CJS) area Leeds North West for selling alcohol to underage level. drinkers in the latest period for which figures are The available information is shown in the following available. [294291] tables. The first table shows the number of orders issued to young people (defined as being aged 10 to 17 at the Mr. Alan Campbell: I refer the hon. Member to the date of appearance in court) and the second the number answer I gave on 3 February 2009, Official Report, of orders issued to adults (defined as being aged 18 or column 1024W. The table is broken down into male, over at the date of appearance in court). female and other defendants, but we are not able to differentiate between shopkeepers and any other defendants. Table 1: Number of antisocial behaviour orders issued to persons aged 10 to 171 at the Cambridgeshire criminal justice system (CJS) area and at all courts in Figures are broken down into police force area and are England as reported to the Home Office by the Court Service, January 20032 to not available by constituency. The data for 2008 will be December 2007 available at the end of January 2010. CJS area Cambridgeshire England Anti-Semitism 2003 10 598 Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2004 3 1,291 Home Department (1) what estimate he has made of 2005 14 1,493 the number of anti-Semitic attacks during Jewish high 2006 15 971 holydaysin(a) 2008 and (b) 2009; and if he will make 2007 4 869 a statement; [R] [293290] Total 46 5,222 (2) what steps the Government is taking to protect 1 Previously issued data have been revised. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and the Jewish community from anti-Semitic attacks; and if complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted he will make a statement. [R] [293291] from large administrative data systems generated by the courts. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable Mr. Alan Campbell: The Government abhor all forms limitations are taken into account when those data are used. of hate crime. It is not possible to make estimates of the Table 2: Number of antisocial behaviour orders issued to persons aged 18+1 at number of anti-Semitic attacks during Jewish high holy the Cambridgeshire criminal justice system (CJS) area and at all courts in days. However, the Association of Chief Police Officers England as reported to the Home Office by the Court Service, January 20032 to December 2007 National Community Tension Team (NCTT) collects Cambridgeshire England intelligence data on hate crime which informs police deployment decisions and acts as an indicator of community 2003 5 679 tension. As such, NCTT data can inform responses to 2004 23 2,013 fluctuations in anti-Semitic attacks connected to particular 2005 34 2,344 events on an operational basis for the police. 2006 16 1,509 The Home Office has identified £5 million from the 2007 16 1,250 2009-10 budget of the Office for Security and Counter Total 94 7,795 Terrorism (OSCT) to reduce the vulnerability of crowded 1 Previously issued data have been revised. Note: places to terrorist attack. This funding will be allocated Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and to priorities identified by local partnerships and risk complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted assessments carried out by Counter Terrorism Security from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection Advisers (CTSAs). The funding will be directed at local processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those authorities to improve the protection of crowded places data are used. locations and third sector organisations, such as the Source: OCJR Court Proceedings Database Community Security Trust, should work with local authorities to explore how they may make use of this Antisocial Behaviour: Crime Prevention funding. The All-Party Inquiry into Anti-Semitism: Government Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Response One year on Progress Report published in Home Department (1) what recent estimate he has May 2008 set out our current programme of work to made of the number of Mosquito ultrasonic devices in combat anti-Semitism. A command paper will be published use in (a) London and (b) England; [293535] by May 2010 setting out further progress. We have also (2) if he will review the use of Mosquito ultrasonic recently published a Cross-Government Hate Crime deterrent devices by (a) police forces and (b) others. Action Plan to tackle all forms of hate crime, including [293536] anti-Semitism. Antisocial Behaviour Orders Mr. Alan Campbell: Information on the use of mosquito dispersal devices is not collected centrally by the Home Mr. Moss: To ask the Secretary of State for the Office. Home Department how many antisocial behaviour We encourage local agencies to consider the full orders were issued to people (a) under and (b) over range of innovations, schemes and practices intended to the age of 18 years in (i) England and (ii) North East reduce crime, the fear of crime and antisocial behaviour. Cambridgeshire in each of the last five years; and if he It is for local agencies like the police and local authorities will make a statement. [290669] to decide on the most appropriate interventions to 1351W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1352W tackle antisocial behaviour based on their knowledge of Table 2: Offences recorded by the police in Enfield—2002-03 to 2008- what works best locally. The Home Office does not 091 promote or recommend any particular commercial product Number of offences or venture above this. 2002-03 30,042 The use of any device like “Mosquito” which claims 2003-04 29,998 to disperse groups of young people should be treated 2004-05 28,131 with caution and if used should form part of an overall 2005-06 27,473 strategy to tackle drivers of that antisocial behaviour 2006-07 27,058 and to encourage more constructive behaviour. 2007-08 25,248 We have no plans to review the use of Mosquito 2008-09 24,566 ultrasonic deterrent devices. 1 The data in this table takes account of the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are Asylum not directly comparable with those for earlier years.

Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Crime: Leeds Home Department how many cases have been (a) dealt with and (b) concluded under the legacy Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for casework programme. [293168] the Home Department how many incidents of crime were recorded in Leeds North West constituency in Mr. Woolas: The total conclusions now stand at over each year since 1997. [294294] 197,500 cases concluded to end of May 2009 and Lin Homer, chief executive of the UK Border Agency, will Mr. Alan Campbell: Statistics for the Leeds North update the Home Affairs Select Committee on performance West constituency are not collected centrally. to date this month. The available information relates to offences recorded by the police in the Leeds local authority area and is Closed Circuit Television given in the following tables. Data for total crime for Leeds is only available centrally from 2001-02. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1: Offences recorded by the police in Leeds, 2001-021 the Home Department what progress has been made Number of offences on implementation of the National CCTV Strategy; 2001-02 120,477 and if he will make a statement. [294212] 1 The data in this table is prior to the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not Mr. Alan Campbell: Progress continues to be made directly comparable with those for later years. on implementing the National CCTV Strategy led by the National CCTV Strategy Programme Board. The Table 2: Offences recorded by the police in Leeds, 2002-03 to 2008-091 Programme Board has been reviewing the recommendations Number of offences made in the strategy and, as indicated in my answer to 2002-03 128,920 the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) on 11 May 2009, Official Report, columns 521-22W, 2003-04 125,692 some of the recommendations are either no longer 2004-05 103,404 appropriate or need reviewing. We will announce the 2005-06 98,014 outcome of that review in due course. 2006-07 94,184 2007-08 85,737 2008-09 82,272 Crime: Enfield 1 The data in this table takes account of the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are Joan Ryan: To ask the Secretary of State for the not directly comparable with those for earlier years. Home Department how many incidents of crime were recorded in Enfield North constituency in each year Departmental Advertising since 1997. [294194]

Mr. Alan Campbell: Statistics for the Enfield North Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for the constituency are not collected centrally. Home Department on which initiatives of his Department and its agencies expenditure on The available information relates to offences recorded advertising has been incurred in each of the last five by the police in the Enfield local authority area and is years; how much was spent on each such initiative; and given in the following table. Data for total crime at local which such initiatives were offered for tender through authority level are only available from 2000-01. the Central Office of Information. [292528] Table 1: Offences recorded by the police in Enfield—2000-01 and 2001-021 Mr. Woolas: The following table outlines Home Office Number of offences and its agencies spend on advertising in each of the last five years, broken down by campaign area. All were 2000-01 28,019 carried out via the Central Office of Information. 2001-02 29,401 1 The data in this table is prior to the introduction of the National Recruitment advertising is not done centrally but Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not carried out across the Department and hence spend directly comparable with those for later years. could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. 1353W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1354W

Campaign Cost (£) Campaign Cost (£)

2004-05 Acquisitive Crime Reduction 6,100,808 Community Safety 2,246,390 Antisocial Behaviour 366,553 Drugs (including FRANK 717,397 Child Protection on the Internet 290,225 campaign) Clean Up campaign 2005-06 25,722 Human Trafficking 8,928 Domestic Violence 432,263 Immigration—Points Based 2,453,007 System Drugs (including FRANK 936,688 IPS Communications1 21,500 campaign) 1 IPS Communications costs (and its predecessor the UK Passport Gun Crime 162,042 Authority) were related to informing the public of passport fee Police Specials Recruitment 1,885,559 increases and encouraging the public to get the applications in early to UK Passport Service1 124,670 help distribute passport demand more evenly throughout the year.

2005-06 Acquisitive Crime Reduction 4,123,311 Departmental Procurement Alcohol Misuse Enforcement 92,204 Campaign Antisocial Behaviour 396,475 Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what percentage of procurement Child Protection on the Internet 862,229 contracts (a) his Department and (b) its agencies Clean Up campaign 39,819 awarded to small businesses in (i) 2006-07, (ii) 2007-08, Crime Stoppers 82,182 (iii) 2008-09 and (iv) 2009-10; and if he will make a Domestic Violence 534,587 statement. [293234] Drugs (including FRANK 1,524,701 campaign) Mr. Woolas: The Home Department is committed to Park Mark Car Parks 94,260 implementing the recommendations of the Glover Report Police Specials Recruitment 1,389,166 and is working to achieve these. It has the ability to Rape 66,153 identify small and medium enterprises (SMEs) on its system and currently has 1,883 registered. UK Passport Service1 76,000 The Department does not capture company size information in relation to number of employees below that of the definition of SMEs, which are enterprises 2006-07 Acquisitive Crime Reduction 3,266,192 that employ fewer than 250 employees. Alcohol Binge drinking 1,975,005 To provide information of the number of contracts Alcohol Misuse Enforcement 231,713 awarded to small businesses for the Home Department Campaign and its agencies for each of the last four financial years Child Protection on the Internet 46,824 would incur disproportionate cost. Domestic Violence 800,384 Drugs (including FRANK 3,467,021 campaign) Departmental Travel Immigration 790,860 Knife Amnesty 137,083 Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for the PCSO Recruitment 1,748,743 Home Department how much his Department spent on Rape 280,022 first class rail travel for officials in each of the last three Single Non-Emergency Number 780,325 years; and if he will make a statement. [293334] Stop and Search 134,501 Identity and Passport Service 105,950 Mr. Woolas: During 2008-09 the Home Office spent (IPS) Communications1 £3.8 million on first class rail travel with its main travel service provider. The Department’s spend on all travel 2007-08 Alcohol Harm Reduction 2,900,411 2008-09, not including expenditure incurred by its agencies, Community Safety 866,889 was £14.6 million. The cost of travel for previous financial years cannot be provided without incurring disproportionate Drugs (including FRANK 898,509 cost. campaign) Immigration 1,973,558 All Home Office expenditure on rail travel conforms to the principles of regularity, propriety and value for Kerb Crawling 218,025 money, and any other guidance as applicable contained Blocking 190,162 within Managing Public Money and the Treasury handbook IPS—Passport Authentication by 1,043,714 on Regularity & Propriety. Interview IPS Communications1 78,417 Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much his Department 2008-09 Acquisitive Crime Reduction— 918,170 spent on (a) train travel, (b) hotels and (c) restaurant Burglary meals for (i) Ministers and (ii) staff in his Department Alcohol Harm Reduction 2,790,203 in each of the last five years. [290167] 1355W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1356W

Mr. Woolas: Information required to answer this Disadvantaged question could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the purpose of the Adults Details of business expenses and hospitality received Facing Chronic Exclusion pilot is; how much funding by departmental senior officials for the quarter 1 April under the pilot has been (a) distributed to and (b) to 30 June 2009 can be viewed at: spent by each local authority in each year since the pilot began; and how much such funding he expects to http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/publications/annual- be (i) distributed and (ii) spent in the next two years. reports-strategy [291944] The Cabinet Office annual list of overseas travel over Mr. Malik: The ACE Programme is a three-year, £500 undertaken by Ministers for 2008-09 was published £6 million fund designed to test new approaches to on 16 July and can be viewed at: tacking chronic social exclusion among the most marginalised people in society. http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/propriety_and_ethics/ ministers/travel_gifts.aspx 12 pilot projects have been directly funded across England. They are testing out ways to improve outcomes Travel by Ministers and civil servants is undertaken for adults with chaotic lives and multiple needs through in accordance with the Ministerial Code and the Civil developing new types of intervention and changing Servant Management Code respectively. All spending local service provision. They are led by voluntary on official entertainment is made in accordance with organisations, working in partnership with other local the principles set out in Managing Public Money. agencies. The funding breakdown is as follows:

Funding (£) September Pilot location Pilot organisation 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total

Newcastle Tyneside Cyrenians 107,061 189,673 0 0 296,734 Luton NOAH 87,194 189,478 102,280 0 378,952 Lambeth and Southwark Thamesreach 110,379 222,390 225,654 113,642 672,065 Islington Forensic Therapies 87,500 175,000 175,000 87,500 525,000 Merton South West London 94,500 189,000 189,000 94,500 567,000 Lambeth St. Mungo’s 81,898 177,808 208,395 112,483 580,584 Chatham, Kent MCCH 88,667 159,833 159,833 82,667 491,000 Bolton Turning Point 92,915 214,214 147,846 0 454,975 Milton Keynes RDA Milton Keynes 89,000 178,000 178,000 89,000 534,000 Halifax Calderdale Women’s Centre 96,276 177,659 196,936 95,434 566,305 Manchester and Durham After Adoption 52,874 85,308 90,603 38,594 267,379 Bristol Fairbridge 60,000 112,745 112,954 55,372 341,071 Total 1,048,264 2,071,108 1,786,501 769,192 5,675,065

Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Offering practical help to people to access several social services the Home Department what recent assessment he has at one time made of progress made under the Adults Facing Helping people to negotiate difficult times in their lives such as Chronic Exclusion pilot to date; to what areas of leaving prison, leaving care and fleeing domestic violence expenditure funding under the pilot is available; what The pilots work with approximately 1,000 people per estimate he has made of the number of people year. supported under the pilot in each year since its establishment; and what forecast he has made of the Drug Seizures: London Airports equivalent number in each of the next two years. [291945] Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Malik: Assessment of the progress made by the Home Department how much cocaine has been seized Adults facing Chronic Exclusion Pilots is being measured at (a) Gatwick and (b) Heathrow airport in each through the ACE national evaluation, which is being month since April 2009. [293126] undertaken by Matrix Consultants. The evaluation aims to assess the project process, its impact on outcomes for Mr. Woolas: From April 2009 until the end of September both service users and services, and the cost effectiveness 2009, a total of 496.51 kilos of cocaine were seized by of the interventions. UK Border Agency officers working in the Border Force south region, which includes all ports along the The ACE programme is spent on services which south coast and Gatwick airport. During the same achieve one or more of the following: period, a total of 234.07 kilos of cocaine were seized by Simplifying the complexities associated with several statutory UK Border Agency officers in the Heathrow region. services working collaboratively (Housing, benefits, health and criminal justice system) to offer co-ordinated support to someone The following table provides a monthly breakdown with multiple needs. of these seizures. 1357W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1358W

Cocaine seizures Quantity (kilos) Year to date April May June July August September

South region 496.51 59.46 79.58 72.82 135.35 26.25 123.05 Heathrow region 234.07 30.86 46.54 48.69 21.40 44.34 42.24

The above data have been extracted from locally-collated were deemed to have mental health problems in the management information. They are provisional and latest period for which figures are available. [293980] therefore may be subject to change. Mr. Hanson: The information requested on arrests is Entry Clearances not collected centrally. The arrests collection held by the Home Office covers Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for the arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) only, Home Department what the average time taken by the broken down at a main offence group level, covering UK Border Agency was from the receipt of an categories such as violence against the person and robbery. application from a European national for permanent Information on the mental health of persons arrested residence to the determination of a case in the latest does not form a part of the collection. period for which figures are available. [293115]

Mr. Woolas: In the current operational year to date Police the average time taken to determine an application for permanent residence submitted by a European National Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for is 7.3 months from the date of receipt. the Home Department how many serving (a) police officers and (b) police community support officers Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for the were arrested for (i) drug-related offences, (i) offences Home Department what target his Department has set related to possession of a knife, (iii) offences related to for the average length of time for the UK Border possession of a gun and (iv) theft in the last 12 months. Agency to determine applications for leave to remain [293794] under the seven years child concession. [293116] Mr. Hanson: The Home Office does not hold this Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency considers information. each case on its own individual merits and as such the length of time taken to consider an application Police Stations under the seven years child concession will vary. Therefore we are unable to provide a specific time frame for considering these applications. However, all remaining Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for the applications made under the seven year child concession Home Department (1) how many police stations there will be considered by the UK Border Agency by were in each police force area in (a) each of the last spring 2010. five years and (b) each of the last 12 months, excluding mobile police stations; and if he will make a statement; Entry Clearances: Appeals [294072] (2) how many police stations were (a) opened and Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) closed in each police force area in (i) each of the the Home Department how long on average it took for last five years and (ii) each of the last 12 months; and if a visa to be issued following a successful appeal against he will make a statement. [294073] a visa refusal in the last three months. [291871] Mr. Hanson: The management of the police estate Mr. Woolas: It takes approximately six weeks for the and allocation of resources are matters for each police decision of the AIT to be notified to visa sections authority and chief officer, who are responsible for overseas, including time taken for the UK Border Agency assessing local needs. to decide whether to appeal against the decision. The visa section will then contact the appellant within three Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 weeks, to request return of the passport. Once this is obtained, further checks may be carried out to ensure there has not been a change of circumstances since the Mrs. Iris Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for decision. The visa is then issued. The visa section aims the Home Department how many people have been to complete the further processing as soon as possible convicted of offences under the Regulation of but this will depend on the speed with which the passport Investigatory Powers Act 2000; if he will commission is returned and the number of checks that need to be research into the efficacy of the legislation; and if he carried out. It is too early to give details on the last will make a statement. [293656] three months. Mr. Hanson: Information showing the number of Offenders: Mentally Ill persons found guilty at all courts for offences under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (‘RIPA’) Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the in England and Wales from 2000 to 2007 is shown as Home Department what proportion of people arrested follows: 1359W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1360W

Persons found guilty at all courts of offences under RIPA in England and Wales Offence Statute 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Unlawful interception of a Sections1(1),(2),(7)——1341—— postal, public or private telecommunications system Failure to give effect to an Sections11(4),(7)———— 1——— interception warrant Unlawful disclosure of Sections19(4)——————— 1 details of interception warrant Failure to disclose key to Section53 ———————— protected information Disclose details of a S49 Section54 ——————— 1 notice Total ——1351—2

These are from the official Ministry of Justice statistics. Minister for the Armed Forces Figures for 2008 are due to be published at the end of 21 to 24 December 2008: Afghanistan January 2010. The encryption provisions of RIPA came 26 to 30 July 2009: Afghanistan. into force on 1 October 2007 and these figures are therefore not yet reflected in the table. Some information is available in the Chief Surveillance Commissioner’s Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations report for 2008-09 which shows there were two s53 convictions for failing to disclose the key to protected Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for information. Defence how many Royal Navy personnel have been The Government are satisfied that offences set in injured in Afghanistan in the last 18 months. [293821] RIPA are appropriate and that the legislation is being used effectively. Mr. Kevan Jones: Between 1 March 2008 and Roads: Accidents 15 September 2009 (the latest date for which validated data are held) there have been 95 naval service personnel Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for the injured in Afghanistan, of which 15 were from the Home Department pursuant to the answers of 17 June Royal Navy and 80 were from the Royal Marines. Injury Official Report, 2009, columns 295-6W, on road can either be as a result of battle (wounded in action) or accidents, what the estimated cost in police time of non battle (operational accidents). dealing with road closures due to road traffic accidents on (a) motorways and (b) trunk roads in each police force area in the South West was (i) from July to Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for December 2005, (ii) in 2006, (iii) in 2007, (iv) in 2008 Defence how many UK armed forces’ rounds of and (v) in 2009 to date. [287098] ammunition of each type have been (a) lost and (b) stolen in Afghanistan in each month since 2001. Mr. Alan Campbell: This information is not collected [293833] centrally. Mr. Bob Ainsworth: This information is not held DEFENCE centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Afghanistan cost.

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what visits each of the Ministers in his Defence how many Royal Air Force personnel have Department has made to Afghanistan in each of the been injured in Afghanistan in the last 18 months. last 12 months. [293808] [293836] Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The dates of both my and my predecessors’ visits to Afghanistan in the last 12 months, Mr. Kevan Jones: Between 1 March 2008 and and those of Ministers in my Department are detailed 1 September 2009 (the latest date for which validated as follows. The Minister for International Defence and data is held) there have been 65 RAF personnel injured Security and Minister for Strategic Defence Acquisition in Afghanistan. Injury can either be as a result of battle Reform have not visited Afghanistan in the last 12 months. (wounded in action) or non-battle (operational accidents). Secretary of State for Defence—John Hutton 18 to 23 October 2008: Iraq and Afghanistan Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 18 to 21 January 2009: Afghanistan and Pakistan Defence how many UK weapons of each type have Secretary of State for Defence—Bob Ainsworth been (a) lost and (b) stolen in Afghanistan in each 26 to 30 June 2009: Afghanistan month since 2001. [293840] 2 to 7 October 2009: Afghanistan and Pakistan Minister for Veterans Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Information on lost and stolen 4 to 8 February 2009: Afghanistan UK weapons in Afghanistan is not held centrally and Minister for Defence Equipment and Support could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Individual 5 to 8 January 2009: Afghanistan units record their weapon losses but information is not 10 to 12 August 2009: Afghanistan aggregated centrally. 1361W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1362W

Armed Forces Compensation Scheme Royal Navy Number of positive results Total Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for number of Defence how many serving armed forces personnel are tests Class A Class B Class C awaiting (a) reconsideration of a decision on their 1Julyto30 3,239 25 0 4 claim under the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme September and (b) an appeal hearing before the Pensions Appeal 1 September to 31 3,026 14 0 2 Tribunal. [293999] December

Mr. Kevan Jones: As at 16 October 2009 there were 2009 15 serving armed forces personnel who had registered 1 January to 31 2,779 5 3 1 for a reconsideration prior to 1 July 2009 (the latest date March for which validated data are available) and are awaiting 1 April to 30 June 3,879 5 5 0 an outcome under the armed forces compensation scheme 1Julyto31July 1,829 3 5 0 (AFCS). As at 16 October 2009 there were 125 serving armed Army forces personnel who had registered an appeal prior to Number of positive results 1 July 2009 (the latest date for which validated data are Total number of available) and are awaiting an appeal hearing before the tests Class A Class B Class C First Tier Tribunal (formerly the Pension Appeal Tribunal) under the AFCS. 2008 1 January to 31 19,885 127 5 87 Armed Forces: Cadets March 1 April to 30 June 24,787 199 3 96 1Julyto30 19,978 128 4 69 Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for September Defence how much will be spent on pay for adult 1 September to 31 32,652 168 3 111 instructors in the Cadet Force in the next six months. December [293151] 2009 Mr. Kevan Jones: Details of the remaining budget for 1 January to 31 25,045 90 40 33 2009-10 paid days training (PDT) for adult instructors March in each of the three services cadet forces and their 1 April to 30 June 26,932 83 88 10 respective combined cadet forces (CCF), are provided 1 July to 31 July 10,540 16 28 5 in the following table. Royal Air Force Remaining PDT budget (£ Number of positive results Cadet force and CCF million) Total number of Army Cadet Force and CCF 1.3 tests Class A Class B Class C (Army) Air Cadet Organisation and 2.0 2008 CCF (RAF) 1 January to 31 3,310 2 0 2 Navy Command Cadets 0.36 March 1 April to 30 June 2,436 4 0 7 1Julyto30 3,477 2 3 4 Armed Forces: Drugs September 1 September to 31 4,458 6 0 6 December Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many drug tests for each class of drugs on (a) Army, (b) Navy and (c) RAF personnel from each 2009 regiment produced positive results in each quarter since 1 January to 31 2,742 3 0 0 March January 2008. [293998] 1 April to 30 June 3,386 0 0 2 1Julyto31July 804 0 0 0 Mr. Kevan Jones: The following tables reflect the Notes: results of drug tests in the armed forces since January 1. A single test sample may contain more than one class of drug; the sum of 2008. A breakdown of the Army figures by regiment positive test results for class A, B and C drugs may therefore be greater than the overall number of positive results. could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 2. Cannabis was re-classified from class C to class B in January 2009 and is Royal Navy therefore included in the positive results in whichever class the drug was considered in at the time the test was taken. Number of positive results Total number of tests Class A Class B Class C Armed Forces: Foreigners

2008 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 1Januaryto31 3,114 15 0 7 Defence how many citizens from (a) British Overseas March Territories and (b) Crown Dependencies are serving in 1 April to 30 June 3,404 8 0 6 the British armed forces. [293308] 1363W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1364W

Mr. Kevan Jones: As at 1 September 2009, the number Departmental Information Officers of UK regular armed forces personnel from British overseas territories was 390. This figure includes 40 people Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for who recorded their nationality on the joint personnel Defence how many press officers his Department has. administration (JPA) system as ‘British Hong Kong’. [293994] Since the introduction of JPA, we cannot identify those from Crown dependencies. Mr. Kevan Jones: Currently, there are 110 Press Officers employed across the Ministry of Defence (as recorded Due to ongoing validation of data from the JPA in the Central Office of Information’s White Book). system, these statistics are provisional and subject to This includes civilian and military staff across the review. Department (including within single services) and is defined as those who directly interface with national or Armed Forces: Housing regional media on news issues, and in direct support of operations. Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many cases of carbon monoxide Departmental Pay poisoning were reported as occurring in services accommodation in each of the last five years. [294001] Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many of his Department’s staff received Mr. Kevan Jones: There have regrettably been three annual remuneration, including benefits, of £100,000 substantiated cases of carbon monoxide leaks, all in or more in the last year for which figures are available. 2007. Immediate action was taken in all three cases and [293996] in two cases occupants required medical attention. Mr. Kevan Jones: For financial year 2008-09 the This Department takes the health and safety of all MOD had 95 employees, of these, three have left MOD occupants of service family accommodation seriously employment, whose gross earnings paid through payroll and has a legal duty to investigate all suspected reports for the year exceeded £100,000. of carbon monoxide, test any suspect appliances and conduct annual gas safety inspections. Departmental Training

Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many engineers are contracted by Defence how many external training courses were Modern Housing Solutions to undertake work on attended by staff of his Department in the last service accommodation; and at what cost. [294002] 12 months; and what the cost was of each course. [289675] Mr. Kevan Jones: Given changes in works undertaken, it is not possible to provide a meaningful figure for the Mr. Kevan Jones: MOD is dedicated to developing its number of engineers contracted at any particular time. staff and provides training and development opportunities The numbers vary depending on the work being undertaken, to help employees realise their full potential and support and seasonal variations. the achievement of business objectives. External training costs are delegated to lower level Armed Forces: Pay budgets and as such, the information requested is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) overpayments and (b) European Fighter Aircraft underpayments of salary there were to armed forces personnel in each month since January 2008; and of Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for what total amount in each case. [293997] Defence how many Typhoon aircraft are expected to be mothballed after delivery to the Royal Air Force. Mr. Kevan Jones: Detailed information about the [294484] number of armed forces personnel over and underpaid since January 2008 is not held because the joint personnel Mr. Kevan Jones: The term ’mothballing’ has been administration system used is now in “steady state”. taken to mean a serviceable aircraft in long-term storage The Service Personnel and Veterans Agency’s and subject only to Anti-Deterioration Maintenance. performance against its key targets for pay accuracy There are no current plans to mothball Typhoon aircraft can, however, be found in its annual report and accounts, after delivery to the Royal Air Force. and copies of these can be found in the Library of the General Richard Dannatt House. Details are set out as follows. For financial year 2007-08, 99.49 per cent. of personnel were Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for paid accurately with 99.9 per cent. being paid by the due date. Defence whether his consent was sought for During financial year 2008-09, 97.9 per cent. of personnel were substantive discussions between General Richard paid accurately with 99.9 per cent. being paid by the due date. Dannatt and the right hon. Member for Witney while Delays or errors in individual payments can also the General was a serving officer. [294140] occur as the result of late or incorrect inputs by individuals or unit human resource staff. We do not hold data on Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 19 October 2009]: this. No such consent was sought. 1365W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1366W

Government Communications Mr. Kevan Jones: The level of aircrew manning is currently sufficient to meet the tasks that they are Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for required to undertake. Defence how many staff in his Department (a) are Aircrew who rejoin the services following retirement classified as Government communicators and (b) have already undergo refresher training before taking up access to the Government Communications Network. flying appointments, as do flying crew returning from [293995] non-flying assignments. The proper distribution of flying crews between the Mr. Kevan Jones: Our records indicate that the Ministry flying training system and front line units is reviewed of Defence has 508 staff classified as Government regularly. It is, of course, vital that the flying training communicators, all of whom have access to the Government system remains sufficiently manned to maintain the Communications Network for their professional throughput of crews onto the frontline. development. This figure is split approximately 35 per cent. service and 65 per cent civilian employees. These On financial retention incentives, I refer the hon. staff principally perform communications roles and Member to the answer I gave on 12 October 2009, include: press officers, media, marketing, internal comms, Official Report, column 430W, to the hon. Member for e-media, stakeholder communications, media training, Romford (Andrew Rosindell). events, visits, branding, design, publications, our deployable military media operations capability, strategy and planning. Military Attachés

Iraq and Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to which UK embassies in the Middle East a Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence defence attaché is deployed. [294485] how many serving soldiers have injuries sustained during operations in (a) Iraq and (b) Afghanistan. Mr. Kevan Jones: There is a defence attaché deployed [293632] to the following UK embassies in the middle east: Bahrain [holding answer 16 October 2009]: Mr. Kevan Jones Iraq For the period 1 January 2003 to 15 September 2009 (the latest date for which casualty data is available) Kuwait 1,521 soldiers (Army personnel only) who are currently Oman serving sustained injuries on operations in Iraq. Qatar For the period 7 October 2001 to 15 September 2009 Saudi Arabia (the latest date for which casualty data is available) 841 United Arab Emirates soldiers (Army personnel only) who are currently serving Yemen. sustained injuries on operations in Afghanistan. Please note that Service personnel may have deployed Parachute Regiment: Manpower to both theatres of operation and therefore it is possible for an individual to have been injured in Iraq and Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan on separate occasions. Any such individual Defence how many members there are of the Parachute will have been counted once in both datasets. Regiment; and how many of them are combat available The information supplied in this answer is a subset of in the parachute role. [294492] that published on the MOD website on a fortnightly basis. Mr. Kevan Jones: As at 19 October 2009, there are a total of 1,076 members of the Parachute Regiment of Mediterranean Region: Navy which 676 are combat available in the parachute role. The figures above are for the 2nd and 3rd Battalions Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Parachute Regiment and, include both officers Defence how many Royal Navy personnel have taken and soldiers. part in Operation Active Endeavour in the last two Combat available has been interpreted as personnel years. [293818] who are able to be deployed and are ready to parachute. This figure therefore excludes recruits arriving in the Mr. Kevan Jones: The number of Royal Navy personnel Battalion who have not yet completed their parachute who have taken part in Operation Active Endeavour in course, those who are not jump trained and who are not the last two years is approximately 3,600. fully effective to deploy. Military Aircraft I am withholding the information for 1st Battalion the Parachute Regiment as its disclosure would, or Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness Defence what consideration he has given to improving or security of the armed forces. helicopter support to front line services by (a) providing short refresher courses to recently retired Territorial Army personnel, (b) providing short refresher courses to crews serving in ground appointments, (c) taking Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for flying-current crews from flying training appointments Defence what assessment he has made of the effect of and (d) providing financial retention incentives to air the decision to reduce Territorial Army (TA) training crew. [294493] on (a) the morale of members of the TA, (b) the 1367W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1368W ability of the TA to support the regular Army on Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for operations and (c) retention rates in the TA. [293127] Defence whether his Department plans to reduce levels of training of Territorial Army recruits. [293135]

Bill Rammell: This year is very challenging in resource Bill Rammell [holding answer 15 October 2009]: This terms, and success in Afghanistan must take priority. year is very challenging in resource terms, and success As such, the Army has directed that the regular forces in Afghanistan must take priority. As such, the Army and the reserves must focus available resources on has directed that the regular forces and the reserves supporting the ongoing campaign in Afghanistan, which must focus available resources on supporting the ongoing means reducing activity levels elsewhere. All TA activity campaign in Afghanistan, which means reducing activity not directly in support of operations will therefore be levels elsewhere. All TA activity not directly in support stopped or reduced for the remainder of this financial of operations will therefore be stopped or reduced for year. This does not affect TA soldiers who have been or the remainder of this financial year. This does not affect will be earmarked for deployment to Afghanistan. These TA soldiers who have been or will be earmarked for individuals are getting and will continue to get the deployment to Afghanistan. Nor does it affect initial training that the Army considers necessary to prepare training for Territorial Army recruits. them for their deployment. The Army recognises the potential impact on the morale of those whose opportunities to train will be JUSTICE reduced, and the possible consequent impact on TA Criminal Justice System retention. However, the current fiscal climate requires that we direct resources where they are most needed, Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and our priority remains the support of current operations, how many people in each age group entered the where the TA continues to make a vital contribution. criminal justice system for the first time in each year since 1997. [294204] Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Claire Ward: The requested figures are shown in the how many Territorial Army reservists live in (a) following table. Figures before 2000 have not been Pembrokeshire and (b) Wales. [294324] included as the available data are known to be incomplete before that date. Mr. Kevan Jones: Data on the UK residential location These figures have been drawn from the police’s of members of the Territorial Army are not held centrally administrative IT system, the police national computer in databases of individual records, and it is therefore (PNC), which, as with any large scale recording system, not possible to provide figures for the numbers of is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Territorial Army reservists living in Pembrokeshire or The figures are provisional and subject to change as Wales. more information is recorded by the police.

First time entrants1 to the criminal justice system, England and Wales, by age group, 2000-01 to 2008-09 Number of offenders Age group 10-14 15-17 18-20 21-24 25-29 30-39 40-49 50 and over Total

2000-01 41,600 48,200 46,500 33,200 27,600 35,900 20,900 16,400 270,500 2001-02 40,600 48,400 43,900 34,000 27,400 37,300 22,000 16,600 270,100 2002-03 36,100 47,200 42,800 36,700 28,700 39,800 23,300 17,800 272,500 2003-04 38,300 49,800 42,800 38,300 29,100 42,000 25,400 18,800 284,600 2004-05 42,900 52,800 39,600 35,800 29,200 42,800 26,800 19,900 289,800 2005-06 48,700 58,400 42,500 39,600 33,300 47,600 31,200 22,500 323,800 2006-07 50,200 59,600 42,900 39,700 34,400 48,100 32,200 23,000 330,200 2007-08 44,400 56,000 42,000 39,300 34,700 47,500 32,900 24,000 320,700 2008-092 n/a n/a 38,000 36,300 33,100 43,600 30,300 22,700 n/a 1 An offender is considered to be a first time entrant to the criminal justice system on the first occasion they receive either a conviction, a caution, a reprimand or a final warning as recorded on the police national computer. 2 Figures for juvenile first time entrants for 2008-09 for England will be published in November by the Department for Children, Schools and Families.

Cybercrime phones. The Government are determined to address the risks that mobile phones in prison present to security Mrs. Iris Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for and to the safety of the public. This is a significant Justice what steps he plans to take to prevent people in challenge given the advances in technology and our prison issuing threats through the internet. [293655] commitment to running decent and effective regimes. We have, though, made significant progress in implementing Maria Eagle: Prisoners are allowed only supervised a strategy to tackle illicit mobile phones. This includes: access to the internet for educational purposes and this minimising the number of mobile phones entering prisons; is limited to specific learning sites. finding mobile phones that are smuggled into prisons; disrupting mobile phones that cannot be found. Prisons take a variety of measures to prevent unauthorised access to the internet by prisoners which In addition, the National Offender Management Service will be mainly through use of illegally acquired mobile has an agreement with one of the leading internet social 1369W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1370W networking sites to ensure that any inappropriate material of the election and they do not exceed the overall that may be posted by prisoners is removed as soon as it maximum recoverable amount specified in an Order can be identified. made by the Secretary of State. Provision is made for this purpose from the consolidated fund. Employment and Support Allowance: Appeals Homicide Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how long on average it has taken for appeals against James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for refusal of employment and support allowance to be Justice (1) how many people have pleaded guilty to a heard in the last 12 months. [293636] charge of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility in each of the last five years; [294223] Bridget Prentice: The first tier tribunal—social security (2) how many people who had pleaded guilty to a and child support target is to bring 75 per cent. of charge of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished appeals to hearing within 14-weeks of receipt. It has responsibility were being held in secure taken an average of 10.22 weeks for appeals against the accommodation at each location on the latest date for refusal of employment and support allowance to be which figures are available. [294225] heard during the period 1 October 2008 and 30 September 2009. This time is calculated from receipt of the appeal Claire Ward: The number of persons who pleaded by the Tribunals Service to hearing by the first tier guilty at the Crown court and were sentenced for tribunal—social security and child support. The Tribunals manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility, Service is unable to provide information on the length in England and Wales, from 2003 to 2007 (latest available) of time between the appeal being lodged with the is shown in the following table. These figures include Department for Work and Pensions and it being submitted offenders who were given an unrestricted hospital order, to the Tribunals Service. a restricted hospital order or an immediate custodial General Elections sentence. The statistics given relate to persons for whom these Mr. Pickles: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice offences were the principal offences for which they were what proportion of costs to local authorities of dealt with. For example, when a defendant has been administrating a general election poll are refunded by found guilty of two or more offences the principal central Government grant. [294370] offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two Mr. Wills: Returning officers are entitled to recover or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for their charges in respect of services rendered or expenses which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. incurred at parliamentary elections if they were necessarily Data for 2008 are planned for publication at the end rendered or incurred for the efficient and effective conduct of January 2010.

Persons who pleaded guilty and sentenced at the Crown court for manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility, England and Wales, 2003to20071, 2 Offence: Manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility Statute: Homicide Act 1957, section 2 Sentence breakdown Unrestricted Restricted Immediate Otherwise dealt Pleaded guilty Total sentenced hospital order3 hospital order4 custody with

2003 19 19 9 1 9 — 200419194483 200519193682 20061010—721 2007 19 19 1 12 6 — 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Unrestricted hospital order, under the Mental Health Act 1983, section 37(1). 4 Restricted hospital order, under Mental health Act 1983, section 41. Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform.

Land: Registration strategic objectives. Over 70 per cent. of England and Wales, including most urban land, is now registered in Mr. Boswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice about 21 million registered titles. The registered area what consideration he has given to the expansion of the has increased from 45 per cent. in 2004 when data on programme of compulsory land registration; and if he geographic coverage first became available. This growth will make a statement. [294023] is principally attributable to Land Registry’s strategy of Mr. Wills: The creation of a comprehensive land persuading landowners of the benefits of voluntarily register for England and Wales is one of Land Registry’s first registration. 1371W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1372W

First registration of unregistered land is compulsory Legal Aid: Eligibility after certain specific trigger events, including, a sale, a first mortgage or a transfer on death. Two new trigger events, the appointment of a new trustee and the Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice partition of land among trust beneficiaries, were added what criteria are used to determine eligibility for legal by the Land Registration Act 2002 (Amendment) aid. [291939] Order 2008, which came into force on 6 April 2009. There are no plans at present to introduce any Bridget Prentice: There are different eligibility criteria additional triggers. for civil and criminal legal aid: Other potential trigger events and methods of Eligibility for legal aid in civil matters depends on compulsion were examined as part of the preparatory the client satisfying the relevant financial eligibility work for the 2008 Order but at that time were considered criteria, and the case must pass a merits test and be impracticable, due to their complexity, or inappropriate, within the scope of the scheme. Those in receipt of because of the nature of the sanctions that would be income support, income-based jobseeker’s allowance, required. guarantee state pension credit or income related employment support allowance automatically qualify Legal Aid financially for legal aid. Otherwise, they can obtain ’free’ or non-contributory assistance, if they have a gross monthly income of less than £2,657, a monthly Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice disposable income below £315 and disposable capital of how many applications for legal aid from residents of £3,000 or less. If their monthly disposable income is (a) Devon, (b) East Devon constituency and (c) between £316 and £733, or disposable capital between England there have been in each of the last five years. £3,000 and £8,000, they will be offered funding on the [291940] basis that they agree to pay contributions towards their legal costs. On 6 April 2009 we increased the financial Bridget Prentice: Applications for civil legal aid advice eligibility limits for civil legal aid by 5 per cent. to their are made to individual providers, and we record the current level. number of instances of advice provided, rather than the The merits test considers whether legal aid applicants number of applications made. Applications for civil have reasonable grounds for taking, defending or being legal aid representation are made to the Legal Services a party to proceedings, and that it is reasonable, in the Commission. Not all applications are granted. The particular circumstances of the case, for legal aid to be applications received for representation for the last five granted. years in the requested areas is shown in the following Eligibility for legal aid in criminal trials depends on table: the defendant satisfying the ’Interests of Justice’ test and the relevant financial eligibility criteria. Suspects Number being held at the police station as part of a criminal East Devon Devon England investigation are automatically entitled to legal advice, 2004-05 327 3,450 180,591 regardless of income; this may be provided on a ’face to 2005-06 310 3,357 182,187 face’ basis under the police station duty solicitor scheme, 2006-07 277 3,019 177,309 or for less serious offences, via a national telephone 2007-08 239 2,690 161,206 helpline. 2008-09 218 2,899 171,492 The income-based means test for defendants appearing before the magistrates court weights the applicant’s gross annual income to reflect their family and household Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for circumstances. If an applicant’s weighted gross Justice how many applications for legal aid there have annual income exceeds £22,325, they are financially been from residents of (a) Derbyshire, (b) ineligible for a grant of representation; if it is £12,475 Chesterfield constituency and (c) England in each of or less, they are financially eligible for a grant of the last five years. [293666] representation. All applicants in receipt of income support, income-based jobseeker’s allowance, or the guaranteed Bridget Prentice: Applications for civil legal aid advice state pension credit are automatically deemed financially are made to individual providers, and we record the eligible, as are applicants under the age of 18. number of instances of advice provided, rather than the For those applicants whose adjusted gross annual number of applications made. Applications for civil incomes fall between the two thresholds, a more legal aid representation are made to the Legal Services detailed assessment of their income is carried out. Commission. Not all applications are granted. The After certain deductions are made, if the applicant’s applications received for representation for the last five disposable income does not exceed £3,398, they will be years in the requested areas is as follows: financially eligible under the new scheme.

Financial years Chesterfield Derbyshire England Magistrates Courts: Closures 2004-05 524 2,597 180,591 2005-06 607 2,930 182,187 2006-07 613 2,773 177,309 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2007-08 618 2,564 161,206 how many magistrates courts have been closed in (a) 2008-09 587 2,546 171,492 rural and (b) non-rural areas in each year since 1997. [293205] 1373W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1374W

Bridget Prentice: The following table shows details of rural and (b) non-rural areas) which have taken place the magistrates court closures (broken down into (a) since 1997.

Number of magistrates courts closed in each year since 19971 Total number of Rural 75 Rural 50 Significant rural Other urban Large urban Major urban courts closed

1997 243318 21 1998 12 41323 25 1999 101212 7 2000 810202 13 2001 12 73332 30 2002 502000 7 2003 921100 13 2004 100001 2 2005 000000 0 2006 010001 2 2007 120001 4 2008 000000 0

Total number of Rural 802 Rural 50 Significant rural Other urban Large urban Major urban courts closed

2009 100000 1 1 The rural constituency classification (introduced by the Rural Evidence Research Centre on behalf of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in 2006) has been used to define whether court closures took place in rural/urban areas. The classification divides constituencies into the following six categories: Rural 75: Over 75 per cent. of the population live in rural settlements (including 207 large market towns) Rural 50: Over 50 per cent. of the population live in rural settlements (including 207 large market towns) Significant rural: More than 37,000 or between 26 per cent. and 50 per cent. of the population live in rural settlements. Other urban: Fewer than 37,000 or less than 26 per cent. of the population live in rural settlements; Large urban: A minimum of 50,000 or 50 per cent. of the population live in a large urban area; Major urban: A minimum of 100,000 or 50 per cent. of the population live in a major urban area (i.e. over 750,000 of the population). 2 The rural constituency classification (introduced by the Rural Evidence Research Centre on behalf of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) changed in April 2009 and one rural classification has changed from rural 75 to rural 80

Offenders: Mental Health Maria Eagle: As of 8 May 2009, there were 32,126 prisoners held in prisons more than 50 miles from their home area. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what estimate his Department has made of the This figure includes male and female prisoners, those number of offenders subject to a custodial sentence sentenced and on and adults, young offenders who have previously been given a conditional and juveniles. discharge; and what proportion of those offenders have All prisoners are asked for details of their home been diagnosed with mental health problems. [293552] address on first reception to prison and on discharge from prison. Approximately 60 per cent. of prisoners are shown to have given a recognised address. Claire Ward: Out of 94,600 sentences of immediate custody in England and Wales in 2007, the latest year If no address is given, various proxies are used to for which figure are available, 52,200 offenders (55 per determine distance from home, including next-of-kin cent.) had on at least one previous sentencing occasion address and committal court address. received a conditional discharge. Information about the mental health of these offenders is not available. Prisons: Parole Board for England and Wales These figures have been drawn from the police’s administrative IT system, the police national computer Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for (PNC), which, as with any large scale recording system, Justice how many prisoners serving sentences of life is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. imprisonment at HMP Standford Hill are waiting for The figures are provisional and subject to change as an oral parole board hearing. [293962] more information is recorded by the police. Bridget Prentice: There are four prisoners serving The figures represent a further breakdown of the sentences of life imprisonment at HMP Standford Hill criminal history statistics published in chapter 6 of who are waiting for an oral parole board hearing. “Sentencing Statistics 2007” which can be found at: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/sentencingannual.htm Prisons: Politics

David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Prisoners: Location Justice (1) what recent steps he has taken to tackle radicalisation in prisons; and what assessment he has Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice made of the effectiveness of such measures; [292613] how many prisoners were held in prisons more than 50 (2) what recent assessment he has made of trends in miles from normal place of residence at the latest date the level of radicalisation in prisons; and what evidence for which figures are available. [294177] was used in making such assessments. [292614] 1375W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1376W

Mr. Straw: There is a range of continuing activity Number of indeterminate sentences for sexual offences, given to better to reduce the risks associated with violent extremism offenders aged under 18, since 2000 and radicalisation in prisons, as part of the wider All indeterminate1 programme of work being delivered by the National 2007 10 Offender Management Service to deal with these issues 1 Detention for public protection and life sentences across prisons and probation services. Recent steps Note: include: commencing the roll out of an awareness raising These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. package across all prisons in England and Wales, building Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the on the series of briefings, written material and training detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. events that have already been delivered at both national Source: and local level; strengthening arrangements to collect OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice and share intelligence; and continuing to build upon a detail programme of research, trial and evaluations to The sentence of detention for public protection for develop intervention approaches for extremist offenders. serious offences committed by those under 18 was This activity contributes directly to the Prevent objective introduced in the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and was in the Government’s Contest strategy to reduce the risk commenced for offences committed on or after 4 April of people becoming terrorists or supporting violent 2005. The data are presented on the principal offence extremism. basis: where an offender has been sentenced for more Systematic assessments of trends in the levels of than one offence the principal offence is the offence for violent extremism and radicalisation in prisons, based which the heaviest penalty was imposed; where the on intelligence gathering and analysis undertaken by same sentence has been imposed for more than one prison staff and police, are undertaken on a regular offence the principal offence is the one for which the basis. The nature and extent of the threat, and the statutory maximum is most severe. effectiveness of measures to manage the associated risks Sexual Offences: Young Offenders are assessed as part of public service agreement 26 “to reduce the risk to the UK and its interests overseas from international terrorism” Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many Schedule 1 offenders there are; and how which is classified and not reported on publicly. many of them committed the relevant offence when under the age of 18-years. [294150] Robbery: Young Offenders Maria Eagle: The term “Schedule 1 offenders”originates Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice from the list of offences contained in Schedule 1 of the how many people aged (a) 10 to 12, (b) 13 to 15, (c) Children and Young Persons Act 1933. Following that 16 to 17, (d) 18 to 20 and (e) 21 or more years old in Act, the term was informally extended to a range of each police force area were convicted of robbery in offences in subsequent Acts, resulting in different definitions each year since 1997. [294179] between Agencies. To resolve this, the Home Office issued guidance in 2005 and officially discontinued the Claire Ward: Information showing the number of term. persons found guilty of robbery, broken down by age This information is therefore unavailable in the format and force, England and Wales, from 1997 to 2007 (latest requested. available) has been placed in the Libraries of the House. Data for 2008 are planned for publication at the end of January 2010. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Sexual Offences: Sentencing Cayman Islands: Hurricanes and Tornadoes

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for how many people have been given indefinite sentences International Development how much the Government for sexual offences committed when they were under has spent on post-hurricane reconstruction efforts in the age of 18 years in each year since 2000. [294176] the Cayman Islands since September 2008. [293304]

Claire Ward: The available information is shown in Mr. Michael Foster: The Government of the Cayman the following table. The table relates to the age at Islands did not request external assistance for the emergency sentence as the age at offence is not available centrally. period or for reconstruction. The United Kingdom has provided no further support to the emergency assistance Number of indeterminate sentences for sexual offences, given to offenders aged under 18, since 2000 provided by the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Wave Ruler and All indeterminate1 support to a study on the impacts of the hurricane by the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin 2000 1 America and the Caribbean (UNECLAC). 2001 0 The Department for International Development is in 2002 0 regular contact with the Cayman Island Government 2003 1 and Governor’s Office. Much progress has been made 2004 0 on reconstruction; housing repair is well under way, 2005 4 hotels have re-opened and all Government buildings, 2006 12 schools and hospitals are now functioning. 1377W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1378W

Consolidated Contractors Corporation Mr. Thomas: The UK Government have taken a strong lead on debt relief and are carefully monitoring David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for the effect of the current financial crisis on debt levels of International Development what (a) meetings, (b) the poorest countries. Recent steps taken include: communications and (c) other contacts Ministers and Support to the World Bank and IMF’s review of the Debt officials in his Department have had with the Sustainability Framework. This is the main instrument for Consolidated Contractors Corporation (CCC Group) monitoring debt levels and guiding new borrowing and lending, and its international offshoots in the last five years. and is used by the Multilateral Development Banks to determine assistance to the poorest countries. [294378] A call from the Chancellor at this year’s IMF spring meetings Mr. Michael Foster: There have been no formal meetings, for a temporary reduction in interest rates to zero for the communications or other contacts between Ministers of IMF’s concessional lending to low-income countries. This was agreed and will apply until December 2011. the Department for International Development and the Consolidated Contractors Corporation (CCC Group) Many countries are better off today because of and its international offshoots in the last five years. international initiatives to reduce debt, in which the UK Similarly, our records do not indicate any meetings, has played a lead role. Under the Heavily Indebted Poor communications or contacts with officials. Countries (HIPC) and the Multilateral Debt Relief Initiatives, $117 billion (approx £74 billion) of debt Departmental Procurement relief has been agreed since 2000. 35 out of 40 eligible countries are now receiving debt relief under HIPC, Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for and this year Burundi, Central African Republic and International Development what percentage of Haiti all completed the process and received irrevocable procurement contracts his Department awarded to debt cancellation. small businesses in (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08, (c) 2008-09 and (d) 2009-10; and if he will make a Global Environment Facility: Finance statement. [293236]

Mr. Michael Foster: The percentage of procurement Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for contracts let by the Department for International International Development how much funding the Development (DFID) to small businesses during the Government have contributed to the Global requested period cannot be provided without incurring Environment Facility in each of the last 10 years. disproportionate cost. [293461] Developing Countries Mr. Thomas: The UK is currently contributing towards the fourth replenishment period of the Global Environment Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Facility (GEF) Trust Fund. Our contributions are International Development (1) how much his £35 million each year, totalling £140 million across the Department plans to spend on social protection four years 2007-10. programmes in developing countries (a) bilaterally and Previously, the UK contributed a total of £118 million (b) through multilateral institutions in the next three to the third replenishment period of the GEF Trust years; [293972] Fund, averaging £29.5 million in each of the four years (2) how much his Department plans to spend on 2003-06. We contributed £85 million towards the second nutrition-related programmes in developing countries replenishment of the GEF Trust Fund across the four (a) bilaterally and (b) through multilateral institutions years 1999-02, averaging £21.25 million each year. in the next three years; [293973] (3) how much his Department plans to spend in Overseas Aid: Internet support of maternal, newborn and child health in developing countries (a) bilaterally and (b) through Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for multilateral institutions in the next three years. [293974] International Development what recent support his Department has given to developing countries to Mr. Michael Foster: Latest information on the develop (a) broadband, (b) wireless internet and (c) Department for International Development’s (DFID) other internet capabilities. [293841] aid allocations by programme to 2010-11 were published in its 2009 annual report which is available in the Library of the House and on the DFID website: Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development has not recently given support to developing www.dfid.gov.uk countries to develop broadband, wireless and other More detailed allocations are made by individual internet capabilities. country programmes, or in the case of core funding to multilateral institutions by those organisations. As such aggregate projections by sector are not available. Overseas Territories: Climate Change

Developing Countries: Debt Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment he has Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the outcomes of the participation of the UK International Development what recent steps he has Overseas Territories in the Caribbean Community taken to help developing countries to reduce their debt. Climate Change Centre’s Enhancing Capacity for [292563] Adaptation to Climate Change project. [293460] 1379W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1380W

Mr. Michael Foster: The Project Enhancing Capacity Vietnam: Overseas Aid for Adaptation to Climate Change is ongoing. Monitoring reports show progress is being made against each of the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for objectives—establishing climate change focal points and International Development what aid his Department committees, building capacity, developing public education plans to send to victims of the recent flooding in and outreach programmes, developing national strategies, Vietnam. [293842] and sharing information. Department for International Development officials Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International participated in two of the project’s workshops and Development (DFID) is contributing to relief funding reported that the project team were well qualified and by the European Commission (16 per cent. of this is experienced, there was strong stakeholder engagement, attributed to DFID). The European Commission has and a high level of awareness of climate change impacts allocated ¤2 million for Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. among Government, non-government, business, and In Vietnam, the funding is being used to support relief other organisations. efforts by non-governmental organisations in the affected Additional feedback from the territories indicates areas. that they welcome the opportunity to participate in this DFID is also supporting strategic programmes aimed programme. They acknowledge it is ambitious, but remain at disaster risk reduction in Vietnam. This is implemented committed to delivering the objectives. through support to the United Nations in Vietnam as Overseas Territories: Nature Conservation well as the Global Facility for Disaster Reduction and Recovery with the World Bank. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what outcomes were reached at the conservation conference hosted by the United Kingdom Overseas Territories Conservation FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Forum held in June. [293296] Iran’s Nuclear Programme Mr. Michael Foster: The aim of the conference was to bring together representatives from Government, non- 14. Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for government organisations, academic, and other Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most organisations working in the UK overseas territories recent assessment is of the development of Iran’s and other small islands to promote co-operation and nuclear programme; and if he will make a statement. sharing of information and experiences on solving [293915] environmental problems. This will help meet obligations under international environment agreements and David Miliband: We remain extremely concerned about UK/Overseas Territories Environment Charters. Iran’s nuclear programme. In August the (IAEA) Director My hon. Friend. the Minister for Marine and Natural General reported that Iran had not suspended its Environment, spoke at the conference and announced enrichment activities contrary to the requirements of an additional £1.5 million over the next three years for five UNSCRs and still refuses to answer questions biodiversity projects in the overseas territories. about studies with a possible military dimension. The UK Overseas Territories Conservation Forum The fact that Iran has been covertly developing an will submit a final report on the conference shortly. enrichment facility near Qom, in breach of UN and Pakistan: Internally Displaced Persons IAEA obligations, casts further doubt on their peaceful intentions. Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan International Development what assistance his Department has provided to those who were displaced from and are returning to the Swat district of Pakistan. 15. Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for [293857] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has received on the new UK foreign Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International policy strategy for Afghanistan. [293916] Development (DFID) has so far provided £22 million for people displaced by the conflict in the North West Mr. Ivan Lewis: As a top foreign policy priority, my Frontier Province and the Federally Administered Tribal right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary frequently discusses Areas. These funds are being used by humanitarian Afghanistan and Pakistan with his counterparts. agencies to meet critical needs of people displaced in Discussions regularly cover the strategy approach camps and host communities. This support is providing announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister vital assistance to those who have started to return on 29 April 2009, Official Report, column 869. There is home through the provision of shelter, protection, water, broad international agreement on the importance of sanitation, food and medical assistance. The UK is also addressing the situation in both countries, and on the providing funding through the UN’s Central Emergency need to seek political solutions alongside military ones. Response Fund and the European Commission’s Humanitarian Aid Office. Trade Unions: Iraq On 14 October the Prime Minister announced a further UK contribution of £10 million for early recovery 16. Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of programmes to help vulnerable communities affected State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the by the conflict to start rebuilding their lives and to Government’s policy is on trade union rights in Iraq; support them through the coming winter. and if he will make a statement. [293917] 1381W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1382W

Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have supported, and will continue Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign to do so, the efforts of all Iraqis to build trade unions Secretary met US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton across the workplace and free from government most recently on 11 October 2009. Their conversation intervention, the rights to which are enshrined in their focused on the need for all parties to exercise restraint constitution. We have made clear to the Iraqi Government and to calm tensions in Jerusalem, and the need to our view that the right to form free and fair unions is a launch negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians. fundamental right. The UK and US work together to give strong support to the Palestinian Authority’s work to improve the Gaza capability of and reform the Palestinian security forces. We commend the Palestinian Authority for the 17. Mr. Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for improvements it has made, which have delivered real Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is changes in the lives of many on the West Bank. taking to ensure early consideration by the United Nations of the report of the United Nations fact EU Budget finding mission on the Gaza conflict. [293918] 21. Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ivan Lewis: The report of the UN Fact Finding Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Mission on the Gaza conflict has already been considered assessment he has made of progress towards reform of by the UN. It was discussed in an open meeting of the the EU budget; and if he will make a statement. Security Council on 14 October 2009 and by a Special [293922] Session of the Human Rights Council on 15 and 16 October 2009. As we made clear in those discussions, while we Chris Bryant: The Government remain committed to have concerns about aspects of the report, there are far-reaching reform of the EU budget refocusing it on serious issues remaining about both parties’ conduct jobs and growth; tackling climate change; and, ensuring during Operation Cast Lead. security, stability and poverty reduction. We look forward to the publication of the European Commission’s Budget European Parliament Review White Paper, which will likely set out recommendations for the future of the budget. The 18. Mr. Borrow: To ask the Secretary of State for Council will discuss these recommendations in late 2009 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent and 2010. assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Government’s work with political groups in the Macedonia European Parliament. [293919] 22. Mr. Martlew: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: Both Ministers and officials continue Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the to engage effectively with the European Parliament at Government are providing support to the Government all levels in order to promote UK interests and secure of Macedonia in their application for membership of the best outcomes for our citizens. The Government the European Union. [293923] have a strategic plan for this engagement. Since June’s European Parliament elections, we have averaged one Chris Bryant: The UK strongly supports Macedonia’s ministerial visit in each week when the Parliament has EU membership aspirations and welcomes the been sitting. Commission’s recent recommendation to open accession Non-proliferation Treaty negotiations. The Government co-operate with EU partners to encourage the required reforms in Macedonia. Alongside 19. Tony Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for its contribution to financing programmes under the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent EU’s Instrument for Pre-accession Assistance (IPA), discussions he has had with his US counterpart on the the Government are providing bilateral support in 2009-10 2010 non-proliferation treaty review conference. of around £890,000. [293920] UK projects include work designed to improve Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Macedonia’s public administrative capacity, strengthen Secretary discusses the 2010 NPT Review Conference its Parliament, and help fight corruption. regularly with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Mrs. Clinton said on 11 October 2009 after their most Economic Recovery: EU recent meeting that British leadership had been pivotal in the run up to the historic Security Council session on 23. Mr. Plaskitt: To ask the Secretary of State for nuclear non-proliferation and disarmament chaired by Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent President Barack Obama on 24 September 2009. discussions he had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the co-ordination of policy on the EU’s West Bank economic recovery with other EU member states. [293924] 20. David Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friends the Chancellor discussions he has had with the United States and Foreign Secretary discuss the co-ordination of the Administration on the security situation in the West EU’s economic recovery regularly in meetings of the Bank. [293921] Cabinet and the National Economic Council. 1383W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1384W

Zimbabwe Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, Lord Mandelson also raised this issue with 24. Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of the Japanese Prime Minister on 5 October 2009. Our State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what embassy in Tokyo has been regularly taking joint action reports he has received on the progress of the together with other embassies, including the Canadian, Government of National Unity in Zimbabwe. [293925] French, US and Italian embassies. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government of Zimbabwe have made some progress, most notably on the stabilisation Cyprus of the economy. Progress on political reform has been slower. We continue to urge the Government of Zimbabwe Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for to meet their commitments under the Global Political Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make Agreements; notably to media, electoral, legislative, judicial representations to the Government of (a) Cyprus, (b) and security sector reform, and to address the issue of Greece and (c) Turkey on cancelling of the annual the appointments of the Central Bank Governor, Attorney- military exercises conducted in Cyprus; and if he will General and Provincial Governors. make a statement. [293709] Bahrain Chris Bryant: Both the Turkish Cypriot and Greek Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Cypriot leadership announced on 13 October 2009 the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his latest cancellation of the Toros and Nikiforos military exercises assessment is of the state of relations between the UK respectively. The Government applauds this decision and the Government of Bahrain. [294486] which is a positive development and shows what can be achieved through trust and co-operation. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK has a long standing and strong relationship with Bahrain. But we are always Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for considering ways in which we can make even stronger Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment our political, defence, cultural and trade relations to he has made of the implications for progress towards a mutual benefit. settlement in Cyprus of the policy of the new PASOK Children: Kidnapping government in Greece on such a settlement; and if he will make a statement. [R] [293720] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he Chris Bryant: We believe that the new Panhellenic has made of the number of children abducted from the Socialist Movement (PASOK) Government in Greece UK in each of the last five years who are being held in will be supportive of the two leaders’ efforts to achieve a Japan; and if he will make a statement. [294490] settlement. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary discussed Cyprus with Greek Prime Minister George Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are aware of the following cases Papandreou on 15 October 2009 and both reiterated involving British children who have been abducted to their support for the settlement process. Japan in the last five years. Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent 2008-09 4 assessment he has made of progress on the negotiations 2007-08 11 towards a settlement in Cyprus; and if he will make a 2006-07 3 statement. [R] [293723] 2005-06 3 2004-05 10 Chris Bryant: The leaders of the two communities have shown a strong commitment to the Cyprus talks Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for process. We welcome their recent decision to meet more Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is regularly and urge both leaders to intensify their efforts taking to encourage the Government of Japan to sign to ensure this unique opportunity is not missed. the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction; and if he will make a Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [294491] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with international partners on Mr. Ivan Lewis: I welcomed the Japanese Government’s the funding of a possible settlement in Cyprus; and if announcement last year that it was considering ratifying he will make a statement. [293725] the 1980 Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. We have made frequent Chris Bryant: The Government have had no recent representations to the Japanese Government on the discussions with international partners on the funding issue. of a possible settlement. This is an important issue On 16 October 2009 our ambassador took part with which will need to be addressed as the talks progress. representatives of a number of other embassies in a joint demarche on Japanese Justice Minister Chiba, Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for calling on Japan to accede to the Convention. My Rt. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary encouraged Japan to reports he has received of progress in the opening of sign the Convention when he met the Japanese Foreign the Limnitis crossing point in Cyprus; and if he will Secretary Okada on 22 September 2009. My Noble make a statement. [293726] 1385W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1386W

Chris Bryant: We welcome the agreement of the Chris Bryant: The UK has donated a total of $159,298 leaders of the two communities to open the Limnitis to the UN committee on missing persons since its crossing point and have been following subsequent inception. In August 2009, the European Commission developments closely. We consider this initiative to be a (EC) allocated ¤2 million in funding to the committee valuable contribution to the building of mutual trust from the EC Aid Regulation for the economic development between the two sides. of the Turkish Cypriot community. This will provide for half of the yearly needs of the committee for missing Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for persons for the next 24 months. The Government have Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment no plans for further donations. he has made of the effect of the Famagusta Mayors’ proposals to restore the historic walls of Famagusta Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for and to conduct a survey of the work required to restore Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make an the infrastructure of Varosha; and if he will make a estimate of the value of the cessation of the division in statement. [293727] Cyprus in terms of (a) gross domestic product for the island and (b) income per capita; and if he will make a Chris Bryant: We attach importance to the restoration statement. [293736] of historic monuments, including the historic walls of Famagusta. We believe that work, both to restore Chris Bryant: The Government have funded independent Famagusta and to plan for eventual resettlement of research by the International Peace Research Institute Varosha, would be useful confidence building measures. of Oslo (PRIO) into the economic benefits of a solution. Their report, “The Day After”, found that Cypriots Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for stand to gain an additional ¤1.8 billion per year in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent recurring benefits from a solution to the Cyprus problem. progress has been made on the planned erection and This translates into approximately ¤5,500 for every family unveiling of a memorial in Northern Cyprus to British every year. These were deliberately conservative estimates. people killed in the Cyprus war of independence; and if he will make a statement. [293728] Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Chris Bryant: This is an independent initiative undertaken he has made of the likely consequences of the by the British Cyprus Veterans Association to withdrawal of the United Nations Peace-keeping Force commemorate the British servicemen who died in the in Cyprus in the absence of a settlement in Cyprus; and 1950s. The memorial will be unveiled on 8 November if he will make a statement. [293738] 2009. Chris Bryant: It is for the UN to produce its own Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for independent assessment of the impact of any changes. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of recent progress in the remaining phases Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for of the opening of the Ledra Street crossing point in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will hold Nicosia; and if he will make a statement. [293732] discussions with the European Commission on the co-ordination of the consideration of bids for funding Chris Bryant: We are following this issue closely and for the Nicosia Master Plan for projects in the buffer stand ready to support the UN’s efforts to achieve zone in respect of (a) south and (b) north Nicosia agreement. being considered by the EU Directorate General for (i) Regional Policy and (ii) Enlargement; and if he will Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [293743] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent progress has been made by the UN committee on Chris Bryant: This is a matter for the European missing persons in Cyprus in recovering and Commission and the municipalities concerned. We are identifying remains of missing persons; and if he will not involved in these discussions. make a statement. [293734] Cyprus: British Nationality Chris Bryant: The UN committee on missing persons reported that, as of 15 October 2009, the remains of 570 people had been exhumed from different burial Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for sites across the island. Of these, the remains of 179 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most individuals had been identified and returned to their recent estimate is of the number of British nationals families, of which 135 were Greek Cypriots and 44 resident in Cyprus (a) north and (b) south of the Turkish Cypriots. Green Line; and if he will make a statement. [293741]

Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: We do not have precise figures for the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what grants the number of British nationals resident in Cyprus. However, UK has given to the UN missing persons committee in we estimate that there are approximately 60,000 British Cyprus since its inception; if he will make an nationals resident in the south of Cyprus and 7,000 assessment of the merits of providing a further grant to British nationals resident in the north of Cyprus. We support that committee’s work; and if he will make a estimate that approximately half are dual British-Cypriot statement. [293735] nationals. 1387W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1388W

Cyprus: Politics and Government Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which projects Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) contracted and (b) completed in Northern Cyprus Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has have been funded from the 259 million euro of EU received reports of the (a) hacking of the e-mails of provided aid; what the value of each project is; and if the UN special representative in Cyprus and (b) he will make a statement. [293730] publication of those e-mails in Phileleftheros newspaper; and if he will make a statement. [293724] Chris Bryant: Information on the projects funded by the Financial Aid Regulation can be found on the Chris Bryant: The Government are aware of the theft European Commissions website: of UN documents and their subsequent publication in http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/turkish_cypriot_community/ various newspapers. We continue to have every confidence index_en.htm in the UN Good Offices Mission and the UN Secretary Turkey General’s Special Advisor, Alexander Downer. Northern Cyprus Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for representations he has made to the government of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his latest Turkey on permission for UN Committees on Missing estimate is of the total compensation paid by the Persons teams to work in areas under Turkish army Immovable Property Commission in northern Cyprus; control; and if he will make a statement. [293733] and if he will make a statement. [R] [293711] Chris Bryant: The Government have consistently Chris Bryant: According to recent figures, the Immovable supported resolutions by the Committee of Ministers at Property Commission has over the past three years paid the Council of Europe urging the Turkish authorities to close to £35 million in compensation. take additional measures to allow effective investigations into the fate of missing persons, in particular by granting Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for the UN committee on missing person’s access to all Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he relevant information and areas. has received of allegations of Turkish Army outlets Turkey: Northern Cyprus undercutting prices charged by Turkish Cypriot businesses in respect of the sale of consumer goods in Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for northern Cyprus; and if he will make a statement. [R] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he [293712] has made of the financial subsidies given by the government of Turkey to the Turkish Republic of Chris Bryant: We have received no reports on this Northern Cyprus in each of the last three years; and if matter. he will make a statement. [293740] Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: The Government do not hold independent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent figures, however, in a speech given on 4 October 2009, estimate he has made of the number of (a) Turkish Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan estimated that between and (b) Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus troops 2003 and 2009, an average of $523 million per year, and in Northern Cyprus based on information from (i) in 2009 $815 million of aid was provided to the north of Turkey, (ii) Cyprus, (iii) the United Nations Cyprus. Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus and (iv) the UK; and if he will make a statement. [R] [293714] Turkey: Varnava

Chris Bryant: The Government have no estimate of Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for the number of Turkish or Turkish Cypriot armed forces Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment in the north of Cyprus. There are no troops from the he has made of the implications for his Department’s Republic of Cyprus, UN Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus policy of the judgment of the European Court of or from the UK in the north of Cyprus. Human Rights Grand Chamber in the case of Varnava and others v. Turkey; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for [293742] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has been made in the disbursement of the 259 million euro Chris Bryant: The Government have made no such package of EU assistance to Northern Cyprus; and if assessment but will continue to call on both sides to he will make a statement. [293729] release all information in relation to the tragic case of the missing in Cyprus, and will also continue to support Chris Bryant: By the end of September 2009, the the good work of the UN Committee for Missing Commission had contracted ¤133.9 million (52 per Persons. cent. of the overall programme) and endorsed ¤45.5 million for payment (18 per cent. of the programme). Tangible United Arab Emirates projects such as providing modern equipment to farmers, funding scholarships for students, improving traffic safety Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for and replacing asbestos water pipes have already started Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the and are making a real difference to the lives of ordinary objectives are of UK foreign policy to the United Arab Turkish Cypriots. Emirates. [294502] 1389W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1390W

Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK aims to strengthen relations pre-announced for publication on the United Kingdom with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in all fields to Statistics Authority (UKSA) publication hub for our mutual benefit. November/December 2009. We work closely with the UAE to promote support Council Tax for enhanced regional and global security we aim to improve cultural, sporting and scientific cooperation including supporting the creation and promotion of Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for large scale renewable energy programmes by the UAE. Communities and Local Government how many properties in each local authority district are in council Our work also aims to support British citizens in the tax band (a) A and (b) B. [294495] UAE and to foster effective trade and economic cooperation that will further enhance links between British and Barbara Follett: A table has been placed in the Library Emirati businesses to operate successfully. of the House giving details of the number of properties in each billing authority in England that are in council tax Band A and Band B. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT The data are as at 29 March 2009 and are supplied to Council Housing: Finance Communities and Local Government by the Valuation Office Agency. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for The data are also available on the Communities and Communities and Local Government how much has Local Government website at: been received gross in council tax receipts in (a) cash http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ and (b) real terms by each local authority in England localregional/localgovernmentfinance/statistics/counciltax/ in each year since 1997-98. [293324] dwellingsvaluationlist/ Barbara Follett: A table will be placed in the Library Council Tax: Valuation of the House containing details of the gross council tax receipts collected by each local authority in England in Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for each year since 1998 -99 in both cash and real terms. Communities and Local Government under what The data are taken from the Quarterly Return of circumstances the Valuation Office Agency will review Council Tax and Non-domestic rates returns completed the council tax banding of a dwelling upon the request annually by all billing authorities in England and the of an occupier; and what the Agency’s policy is on real terms data are given at 2008-09 prices. whether it will review a banding if the current occupier has resided in the dwelling for more than six months. Council Housing: Sutton [293348]

Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Barbara Follett: A review will normally be initiated, Communities and Local Government when he expects irrespective of duration of residence, in circumstances to respond to the points raised by the hon. Member for where the occupier provides information to suggest that Sutton and Cheam during the summer recess the banding might be inaccurate. adjournment debate on 21 July 2009, Official Report, columns 837-38; and if he will make a statement. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for [293267] Communities and Local Government how many dwellings have had their property attributes updated by Mr. Ian Austin: On 17 July, the Secretary of State the Valuation Office Agency as a result of data announced as part of the Housing Pledge that over this obtained from the Rightmove portal in the last year for year and next Government will be investing a further which figures are available. [293370] £1.5 billion to build an extra 20,000 new affordable homes for rent and low cost sale. Barbara Follett: A total of 64,014 dwellings have had As a consequence, £150 million has been reprioritised their property attributes updated by the Valuation Office from the Decent Homes programme in 2010-11, to fund Agency as a result of data obtained from the Rightmove the Pledge initiative to contribute to the building of portal during the period 16 October 2008 to 30 September these new homes. That means the Government are 2009. spending more on housing this year. Rightmove data is used routinely by VOA staff in the Council Housing: Waiting Lists course of considering approximately 30,000 proposals/ appeals and over 450,000 cases annually in respect of Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for maintaining current council tax valuation lists. This Communities and Local Government when he expects provides quality assurance to ensure information about to publish updated data on the number of households properties is correct and, ultimately, that taxpayers are on local authorities’ housing waiting lists; and if he will asked to pay the right amount of tax. Rightmove also make a statement. [293415] alleviates the need to inspect substantial numbers of properties thus minimising inconvenience to taxpayers. Mr. Ian Austin: Local authorities report the number The use of Rightmove data more often than not results of households on their housing waiting lists on the in no change to property attribute data. Housing Strategy Statistical Appendix (HSSA). This information will be published in a statistical release, Christopher Fraser: To ask the Secretary of State for ‘Local Authority Housing Statistics, England 2008/09: Communities and Local Government how many HSSA and BPSA Statistical Release’, which has been properties are recorded with each individual (a) 1391W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1392W dwellinghouse code and (b) value significant code, Financial year First class rail (£) broken down by (i) individual type, (ii) number of rooms, (iii) number of bedrooms, (iv) number of 2007-08 406.232 bathrooms, (v) number of floors, (vi) floor level, (vii) 2008-09 419.249 parking, (viii) garaging, (ix) conservatory type, (x) age, 2009-10 (to date September) 142,473 (xi) outbuilding and (xii) modernisation code, in the local authority area of (A) King’s Lynn and West The figures shown in the table came from the Norfolk and (B) Broadland according to electronic Department’s travel suppliers but it should be noted records held by the Valuation Office Agency. [293896] that staff may also purchase rail tickets directly from stations or through other suppliers. Identifying first Barbara Follett: The number of properties with each class rail travel expenditure from these sources could be individual dwellinghouse code and each value significant provided only at disproportionate cost. code, for all local authority areas in England, will be placed in the Library of the House. Eco-towns Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for properties in Forest of Dean district are recorded with Communities and Local Government how much his each individual (a) dwellinghouse code and (b) value Department has spent on the eco-town programme significant code, including each code for (i) type, (ii) since its inception. [293252] number of rooms, (iii) number of bedrooms, (iv) number of bathrooms, (v) number of floors, (vi) floor John Healey: The Department’s spend for developing level, (vii) parking, (viii) garaging, (ix) conservatory the Eco-towns Programme, including communications- type, (x) age, (xi) outbuilding and (xii) modernisation, related activity form part of the Department’s running according to electronic records held by the Valuation costs which are set out in the departmental annual Office Agency. [294497] report 2009. Barbara Follett: The number of properties with each individual dwellinghouse code and each value significant Fire Engines: Sales code, for all local authority areas in England, will be placed in the Library of the House. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Dismissal Communities and Local Government which Minister took the decision to dispose of the green goddess fire Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for engines used to provide emergency fire cover. [293367] Communities and Local Government how many staff have (a) been dismissed and (b) had their contract Mr. Malik: The decision to dispose of the Green terminated by his Department in each of the last five Goddess fleet was taken by the Government. Green years; what the reason was in each case; and what the Goddesses no longer offered the most flexible and severance costs in relation to (i) dismissal and (ii) efficient means of delivering emergency fire cover. In contract termination were in each such year. [290581] addition the Department provided 46 high volume pumps to the fire and rescue service which removed the need Mr. Malik: The number of staff that have been for a reserve pumping capacity. The National Framework dismissed or had their contract terminated over the last for the fire and rescue service makes it clear that fire and five years cannot be released due to reasons of rescue authorities are responsible for the supply of all confidentiality. necessary vehicles and equipment. Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Home Information Packs Mr. Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 16 July Communities and Local Government what assessment 2009, Official Report, column 656W, on Tony has been made of the effect of increasing the personal Clements, whether Mr Clements was a candidate search fee for the local land charges register on the cost selected to stand by a political party at a general of a home information pack. [292556] election on the date of his appointment, 29 June 2009. [293538] Bridget Prentice: I have been asked to reply. Barbara Follett: Mr. Clements was not a parliamentary The Ministry of Justice carried out an assessment of candidate on the date of his appointment. the effect of increasing the personal search fee for the Departmental Rail Travel local land charges register—see the impact assessment in the post-consultation report “Local Authority Property Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Search Services” published by the Ministry of Justice Communities and Local Government how much his on 16 September 2009. This stated that the increased Department and its predecessors spent on first class cost was likely to be passed on by personal search rail travel for officials in each of the last three years; companies to their customers. If this happens it may and if he will make a statement. [293328] lead to an increase in the cost of home information packs in England. However, this is a matter for the Barbara Follett: The information requested is set out market and the Government have no role in this. Copies in the following table. of the report are already available in the House Library. 1393W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1394W

Housing: Construction Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for funding his Department has allocated to tenant Communities and Local Government what timetable participation in local housing authorities in each of the has been set for the publication of the results of the last three years. [293494] second stage of his Department’s review on the extent and effect of housing development on garden land. Mr. Ian Austin: The Tenant Empowerment Programme [293263] supports tenants living in social housing to access information and training as well as enabling tenant Mr. Ian Austin: Our intention is to make a further groups to explore and undertake management of their announcement before Parliament and publish the findings homes. Grant is not paid directly to local authorities of the review together with the evidence shortly. but rather to national, regional, and local tenant organisations and training providers working across all Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for social housing providers. Communities and Local Government which local Grant allocations for TEP were: planning authorities responded to the Government’s 2007-08: £2.6 million review on the extent and impact of housing 2008-09: £3.14 million development on garden land; and if he will place in the 2009-10: £3.14 million. Library a copy of each such response. [293264]

Mr. Ian Austin: There were 127 detailed responses Housing: Regeneration from local planning authorities to stage 1 of the Review of Evidence. I will make a further announcement before Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Parliament and my Department will publish the findings Communities and Local Government what the of the review together with the evidence shortly. These timetable is for the review of the allocations to Housing will all be placed in the Library of the House. Market Renewal Pathfinders; and what funding has been allocated to date in each year in each Pathfinder Housing: Databases during the current Comprehensive Spending Review period. [293183] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what role John Healey: Funding allocations for HMR pathfinders Ordnance Survey has in the geo-referencing of the during the current CSR period are given in the following property database held by the Valuation Office Agency. table. The 2009-10 figures include £311 million allocated [293253] in March 2009 and a further £35 million which I announced in July 2009 and which was based on strong progress. Mr. Ian Austin: Ordnance Survey and the Valuation Figures for 2010-11 are indicative. Office Agency have been working together to align their spatial address databases. Through the Pan Government £ million Agreement, Valuation Office Agency currently receives HMR pathfinder 2008-09 2009-10 2010-111 the Ordnance Survey’s ADDRESS-POINT product. It will shortly receive Ordnance Survey’s latest spatial Birmingham 25 19 11 addressing product OS MasterMap Address Layer 2. Sandwell East Lancashire 52 50 48 Hull and East 30 29 28 Housing: Public Consultation Riding Manchester 52 46 42 Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Salford Communities and Local Government what assessment Merseyside 54 51 47 his Department has made of the effectiveness of the Newcastle 34 32 29 spending of grants provided for tenant participation in Gateshead North 40 38 36 local housing authorities in each of the last three years. Staffordshire [293493] Oldham 32 30 28 Rochdale Mr. Ian Austin: The Tenant Empowerment Programme South Yorkshire 46 38 31 (TEP) is a grant programme funded by Communities TeesValley131110 and Local Government and administered by the Tenant West Cumbria 3 2 1 Services Authority. It enables tenants living in social Total 381 346 311 housing to access independent advice, training and 1 Indicative allocation. information directly.This helps them to challenge, influence or control how housing services are delivered to their Housing: Valuation communities. It does not fund landlords to undertake mainstream tenant participation which is core housing Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for management activity. Communities and Local Government in what The last internal evaluation of the TEP programme circumstances a proposal submitted to the Valuation occurred in 2006. We are currently re-examining its Office Agency to reduce the banding of a dwelling is scope and governance in light of the new institutional (a) considered by the agency alone and (b) referred to landscape for social housing. the Valuation Tribunal Service. [293106] 1395W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1396W

Barbara Follett: All proposals must be submitted to Local Authority Business Growth Incentives Scheme the Valuation Office Agency (VOA), who will issue a decision on each proposal. A proposal is considered by Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the VOA alone unless the decision is appealed to the Communities and Local Government for what reason independent Valuation Tribunal by the taxpayer or any the Local Authority Business Growth Incentive other party who, by law, is in a position to make such an funding scheme funding has been reduced to appeal (e.g. the owner if not also the taxpayer). £50 million for 2010-11; and whether the funds previously allocated to the programme are to be Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for transferred to another programme. [293259] Communities and Local Government what obligations there are on property owners to respond to requests Barbara Follett: LABGI funding for 2010-11 was from the Valuation Office Agency to complete reduced from £100 million to £50 million as part of a questionnaires gathering information for the purposes review of Government spending priorities in early 2009 of property valuation. [293320] in light of the economic downturn. Local Government Barbara Follett: For domestic property questionnaires are issued to taxpayers so that they may voluntarily Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for supply information that would otherwise have to be Communities and Local Government what assessment obtained by other means, such as an inspection. Using the has been made of progress in the operation of two-tier questionnaires reduces the need to inspect, minimises pathfinders; and if he will place in the Library a copy the inconvenience to the taxpayer and enables the VOA of the report by the Office for Public Management to deal effectively and speedily with taxpayers’ enquiries. consultancy, PricewaterhouseCoopers and Cardiff While, under section 27 of the Local Government Business School on two-tier pathfinders. [293358] Act 1992, the VOA can require an owner or occupier to supply information that will assist in maintaining council Ms Rosie Winterton: My officials are currently reviewing tax valuation lists, the questionnaires are not issued to progress on two-tier innovation with the four pathfinders taxpayers using these powers. and other councils. In the light of this we will be considering how best to encourage and facilitate improved LLM Communications two-tier working, particularly in the context of the Total Place initiative. The research contractors are still finalising the qualitative report and associated documents Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for from the long-term evaluation of two-tier pathfinders Communities and Local Government pursuant to the and new unitary authorities. We anticipate this will be answer of 21 July 2009, Official Report, column 1662W, published early in the new year and will place a copy in on LLM Communications, for what reasons the the House Library. Department paid LLM Communications directly. [293250] Local Government Finance

John Healey: In 2006 the Campaign for More and Mr. Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Better Homes (CMBH) approached the Department Communities and Local Government if he will place in seeking funding for a series of regional housing debates. the Library a copy of the underlying wage data (the It was agreed with CMBH that LLM Communications ASHE Dataset) used as the basis of the calculation for would be engaged to support this work and CLG engaged the area cost adjustment for the most recent three LLM on behalf of the partnership. years. [293537] Barbara Follett: Information contained in the ASHE Lobbying data is collected by ONS under the Statistics of Trade Act (1947), and is regarded as confidential. It is therefore Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for not possible to make the ASHE dataset available in the Communities and Local Government what recent Library of the House. guidance his Department has issued to its (a) special advisers, (b) civil servants and (c) policy advisers on Local Government: Publicity 12 month contracts on meetings with lobbyists; and whether central records are kept of any such meetings. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for [293003] Communities and Local Government what estimate his Department has made of the number of local Barbara Follett: Special advisers meet many people as authorities which publish a weekly municipal part of the process of policy development and analysis. newspaper. [293161] All such contacts are conducted in accordance with the Ms Rosie Winterton: My Department has made no Ministerial Code, the Civil Service Code, the Code of estimate of the number of local authorities that issue Conduct for Special Advisers and Guidance for Civil publicity in the form of a weekly newsletter or freesheet. Servants: Contacts with Lobbyists: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/propriety_and_ethics/ Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for civil_service/lobbyists.aspx Communities and Local Government which (a) In addition guidance on contact with lobbyists is individuals and (b) organisations responded to his provided to all civil servants through the staff handbook Department’s consultation on the Code of Conduct on which is available on the Department’s intranet. Local Authority Publicity. [293162] 1397W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1398W

Ms Rosie Winterton: I have arranged for a list of the Mr. Ian Austin: Part of the National Housing and over 300 people and organisations who responded to Planning Advice Unit’s remit is to commission research the consultation on the code of recommended practice in support of building an evidence base to advise on local authority publicity to be placed in the Library Government and other stakeholders on the implications of the House. We intend to publish a summary of of housing supply on affordability. Since its launch it consultees’ comments by the end of the year. has developed and delivered a focused research programme exploring specific aspects of the housing Mortgages: Government Assistance supply and affordability problem from an independent perspective, with the aim of engaging stakeholders and Mr. Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for informing the development of housing supply policy Communities and Local Government pursuant to the and practice. This programme of research activity is answer of 14 May 2009, Official Report, column ongoing, and the unit is currently carrying out the 1007W, on mortgages: Government assistance, which following projects: lenders are participating in the Homeowner’s 1. The Geography of Housing Market Areas in England: Mortgage Support Scheme; how many borrowers are Implications for Analysis, Modelling and Policy. participating in the scheme with each lender; and how much funding has been made available in respect of 2. Developing sub-regional or cross regional models of housing markets supply and affordability in England—proposal for each lender. [289897] feasibility studies. John Healey: A full list of lenders participating in the 3. The effect of supply constraints on housing costs. scheme is available at: 4. An empirical investigation of planning delay and its impact http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/ on housing supply. Keepingyourhomeevictionsandhomelessness/ 5. The Implications of Housing Type, Size, Mix and Density. Mortgagesandrepossessions/DG_177637 6. Mortgage possessions in the UK: a regional and national The following lenders have recently joined the scheme: analysis. Bank of Ireland (including Bristol and West and the Post Office) and Kensington Mortgages on 1 October; 7. The need for market and affordable housing. and Basinghall Finance on 8 October. 8. House Prices and Cohort Home Ownership. A maximum guaranteed amount is set for each 9. A review of European Planning Systems. participating lender. This is based on market share information and is commercially confidential. The Department plans to publish information in National Housing and Planning Advice Unit: Pay December on the number of households who have been helped through Homeowners Mortgage Support. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Muslim Council of Britain Communities and Local Government how much the National Housing and Planning Advice unit spent on Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for staff costs in each of the last three years. [292485] Communities and Local Government on what dates Ministers in his Department have met representatives of the Muslim Council of Britain in the last 12 months. Mr. Ian Austin: The National Housing and Planning [294631] Advice Unit was first set up in October 2006, had a fully operational team by March 2007 and was officially Mr. Malik: The former Communities Minister chaired launched in June 2007. It is a small team of civil a meeting of the Faith Communities Consultative Council servants (there are currently 13 staff in post) whose on 11 November 2008 which was attended by a work is shaped and steered by an expert board. The representative of the Muslim Council of Britain. My unit’s remit is national, and its prime objective is to hon. Friend also held meetings with the Mosques and develop a strong and reliable evidence base on which to Imams National Advisory Board (MINAB) Steering provide independent advice to Government and other Group on 2 December 2008, 15 January 2009, 4 March, stakeholders about the impact of planning proposals and 22 April 2009 which were attended by representatives on affordability. In supporting this objective, it has of the Muslim Council of Britain. In addition my hon. provided comprehensive advice on housing supply numbers Friend met representatives from the Muslim Council of to be tested in the planning process, developed and Britain in a separate meeting on 2 December 2008. delivered a focused research programme, and delivered The former Secretary of State for Communities and affordability training events for stakeholders, with the Local Government and the former Communities Minister aim of raising awareness of the affordability problem. attended a meeting hosted by the Prime Minister on The unit spent the following on staff costs1 in each of 25 November 2008 at which representatives of the Muslim the last three years. Council of Britain were present. 1 Staff costs are salaries of permanent staff, including pension National Housing and Planning Advice Unit and national insurance contributions. They do not include board fees, or salary costs of temporary staff.

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Communities and Local Government what research projects the National Housing and Planning Advice October 2006 to March 2007 168,490 Unit is carrying out; and if he will make a statement. April 2007 to March 2008 578,968 [292351] April 2008 to March 2009 606,212 1399W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1400W

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Communities and Local Government how many firms April 2009 to Current2 330,688 eligible for small business rate relief were not claiming 1 This amount accounts for the six-month set-up period for the unit. it on the latest date for which figures are available. For the first five months of this period, the unit had only one member [293369] of staff—it’s chief executive, who was setting up the unit during this period, with other staff members joining the unit during February and March 2007. The £68,490 quoted applies therefore to only 1.42 Barbara Follett: Data is not currently available on the full-time equivalent staff years. For the following years, the salary number of businesses eligible for Small Business Rate costs quoted relate to the full team (which equates to 12-13 staff Relief (SBRR). We asked local authorities to estimate years). the numbers of businesses that were eligible for SBRR 2 To end of September 2009. in the annual national non-domestic rate return. We are examining this data to assess its quality before making a Non-Domestic Rates decision about whether it is are suitable for publication. Meanwhile, we are working to see if we can establish an Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate of the number of businesses eligible for SBRR Communities and Local Government what the value using previous research in this area and so assess the was of unpaid business rates (a) uncollected and (b) level of take-up. written off in each of the last five years in England. [293354] The number of properties reported by local authorities as claiming SBRR as at December 31 2006 was 392,000. Barbara Follett: The amount of business rates, in Local authorities also reported that they had granted £ million, not collected within the year to which it £997 million in SBRR between April 1 2005 and March relates for 2004-05 to 2008-09 is given in the following 31 2009. They expect to grant a further £306 million in table. 2009-10. Non-Domestic Rates: Greater London £ million 2004-05 261 2005-06 269 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 229 Communities and Local Government with reference to 2007-08 215 the answer to the hon. Member for Brentwood and 2008-09 423 Ongar of 10 January 2008, Official Report, columns 767-68W, on the Crossrail line: finance, what Collection of non-domestic rates continues after the information his Department holds on the likely (a) year to which it relates has ended so the final amount start date and (b) end date of the supplementary not collected for the year will be lower than that shown business rate in London. [293226] in the table. This information is available in Table 3 of the statistical Barbara Follett: The Department’s understanding is releases Collection Rates for Council Tax and Non-domestic that the Mayor of London intends (a) to start levying a Rates in England that are available on the Communities BRS to support the funding of the Crossrail project and Local Government website at from April 2010 and that (b) dependent on the future conditions of the financial markets which will facilitate http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ localregional/localgovernmentfinance/statistics/counciltax/ the borrowing that the BRS will support, that the collectionrates/ London Crossrail BRS will run for between 24 and Estimates of the amount of business rates (in £ 30 years. million) written off each year in the period 2003-04 to The Mayor of London’s plans are set out in his 2007-08 are given in the following table. Crossrail BRS prospectus, published on July 30 2009 for consultation. The Business Rate Supplements Act 2009 £ million requires that any revision to the prospectus would have to be consulted on. 2003-04 818 2004-05 779 Planning Permission 2005-06 714 2006-07 579 Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 759 Communities and Local Government how many planning applications were made in each district and Data for 2008-09 will not be available until spring single-tier authority in the last 12 month period for 2010. which figures are available; and how many and what This information is published annually in Table 2.3k proportion of these were referred to planning of Local Government Financial Statistics England No 19 inspectors for decision in the case of each district or 2009 that is available on the Communities and Local single-tier authority. [293804] Government website at http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ Mr. Ian Austin: The number of planning applications localgovernmentfinance/localgovernmentfinance/statistics received for each district or single-tier authority in The data are taken from the Quarterly Return on England in 2007-08 is published in table 1.7 from the Collection of Council Tax and Non-domestic Rates annual Development Control Statistics, which can be return (QRC4) and the national non-domestic rates found at: return (NNDR3) that are completed annually by all http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ billing authorities in England. statistics/developmentcontrol200708 1401W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1402W

Information on the number of planning applications Mr. Ian Austin: The Planning Inspectorate has considered referred to planning inspectors is published by the eight planning appeals by the Starbucks Coffee company Planning Inspectorate but is not disaggregated by local in the two-year period from 1 October 2007 to 30 September authority. 2009. Of these, five appeals were allowed and three dismissed. Playing Fields: Planning Permission

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Tony Clements Communities and Local Government what planning guidance has been produced by his Department on Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for using (a) green belt, (b) countryside and (c) open Communities and Local Government whether space for use as playing fields in the last three years. Mr Tony Clements played a role in drafting the letter [293344] sent by the Minister for Housing and Planning to the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition dated 28 July Mr. Ian Austin: Planning guidance on playing fields is 2009. [293248] contained in Planning Policy Guidance note 17—“Planning for Open Space, Sport and Recreation”, which was Barbara Follett: Tony Clements had no role in drafting published in 2002. No new planning guidance on playing the letter sent by the Minister for Housing and Planning fields has been issued since then. to the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition dated 28 July Public Sector Relocation Independent Review 2009.

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Communities and Local Government what use has been made of the dataset of revaluations produced for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Lyons Review by the Valuation Office Agency since Communities and Local Government how many times the conclusion of the review; and which public bodies the power contained in section 79, paragraph 3 of have access to the dataset. [293261] Schedule 6 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 has been used since 1997; on how many of Barbara Follett: No revaluations took place for the those occasions his Department and its predecessors Lyons review. A number of datasets containing address has not accepted in full the Planning Inspector’s report information, attribute data and value estimates were and recommendations; and if he will place in the provided to the review team during the period of their Library a copy of the guidance issued by his review. The data were provided to the Lyons review Department on the exercise of such discretion. [293531] team expressly for their use only. The Valuation Office Agency has made no use of Mr. Ian Austin: Since April 1997, the Secretary of these datasets since the conclusion of the review. State has used the power mentioned (to recover planning No other public bodies have access to this information. appeals for determination by Secretary of State) on a total of 1,301 occasions. Since April 2002, the Secretary Regional Development Agencies of State has disagreed with the Inspector’s recommendation Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for on a total of 76 planning appeals. This information was Communities and Local Government on what date not routinely collected before 2002. regional development agencies will commence their A written ministerial statement setting out the revised roles as regional planning bodies. [293345] criteria for the recovery of appeals was made on 30 June 2008, Official Report, columns 43-44WS. Mr. Ian Austin: There are no proposals for regional development agencies to become regional planning bodies. Travelling People: Caravan Sites Social Rented Housing: Standards Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what level of Communities and Local Government what recent grant aid was provided to each local authority for representations he has received on the decision to improving Gypsy and Traveller sites in each of the last reduce Decent Homes funding; and if he will make a five years; and what the relevant outturn expenditure statement. [293101] was by each authority in each year. [293490]

Mr. Ian Austin: Following the Housing Pledge Mr. Malik: Grant for refurbishing existing and building announcement of 17 July 2009 the Department has new Gypsy and Traveller sites was paid through the thus far received around 34 representations. The Gypsy Site Refurbishment Grant up to and including representations were from Members of this House and financial year 2005-06 and since 2006-07 has been paid representatives of local authorities. through the Gypsy and Traveller Site Grant. Starbucks: Planning Permission The level of grant paid to each local authority by the Department for Communities and Local Government Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for in financial years 2005-06 to 2008-09 has been placed in Communities and Local Government how many the Library of the House. The Department does not planning appeals relating to the establishment of hold records of the outturn expenditure by local authorities Starbucks coffee shops have been considered by the following these grant awards in financial years 2005-06 Planning Inspectorate in the last 24 months. [293254] to 2008-09. 1403W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1404W

The Homes and Communities Agency is responsible CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES for paying the Gypsy and Traveller Site Grant in the current financial year 2009-10. The agency has received Children: Databases bids for grant funding, but no payments have yet been made to local authorities. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families which Minister has Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for responsibility for the security of data held on the Communities and Local Government what assessment ContactPoint database. [293545] his Department has made of the effectiveness of the spending of grants provided to local authorities to Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 16 October 2009]: improve Gypsy and Traveller sites in the last three Baroness Morgan of Drefelin is responsible for years. [293491] ContactPoint at a ministerial level.

Mr. Malik: The Department has not carried out any Children: Social Services formal review of effectiveness of the Gypsy and Traveller site grant in the last three years From 2006-07 The Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for process through which successful schemes were Children, Schools and Families (1) with reference to recommended was changed. Gypsy and Traveller site page 14 of the Ofsted report Learning lessons from grant from this point formed part of the regional housing serious case reviews: year 2, how many of the 38 deaths pot, with recommendations for successful schemes being arising from homicides were (a) reported in serious made by Regional Assemblies. This helped to ensure case reviews that were inadequate in each local that local knowledge about the ability of authorities to authority and (b) of children known to social services deliver schemes of this nature was better taken into at the time of the incident; [294637] account. (2) what the executive summary titles are of the 173 Bids were assessed, in a competitive process, against serious case reviews examined in preparation of the published bidding guidance centrally and analysed by Ofsted report entitled Learning lessons from serious independent consultants to assist Regional Assemblies case reviews: year 2. [294638] in assessing schemes. The evaluation assessed bids against the following key criteria: Dawn Primarolo: These are matters for Ofsted. HM Does the scheme meet a clearly assessed need Chief Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the Does the scheme offer value for money hon. Member and copies of her replies can be found as follows. Is the site sustainable Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 19 October 2009: Can the scheme be delivered to time and to budget Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as Since April 2009, administration of the Gypsy and Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for response. (UIN 294637) Traveller site grant has transferred to the Homes and In the recently published report “Learning lessons, taking Communities Agency who will be paying grant under action: Year 2”, Ofsted reported that between 1 April 2008 and their own new powers and monitoring regime. 31 March 2009, Ofsted received 174 notifications of deaths of children where abuse was or was suspected to have been a factor. Mr. Malins: To ask the Secretary of State for This figure included 38 deaths arising from homicide. Interrogation Communities and Local Government whether he has of data relating to these 38 deaths of children has identified that, received any (a) letters and (b) other communication to date, 10 of these notifications have resulted in serious case requesting anonymity of representation in planning reviews that have been received and evaluated by Ofsted. The 10 application cases for Gypsy and Traveller pitches or reviews relate to 15 children. Four reviews were judged good, four adequate and two were inadequate. sites in the last six months; and if he will make a Of the 15 children concerned, three were on the child protection statement. [294369] register at the time of the incident, two were previously referred to social care services prior to the incident but were not receiving Mr. Malik: The Department has not received any services and ten were not known to children’s services. Ofsted has letters or other communications in the last six months not yet received the remaining serious case reviews. The majority requesting anonymity of representations in planning of serious case reviews take between 4 and 12 months to complete application cases for Gypsy and Traveller pitches or as, in some cases, the requirements of judicial proceedings can sites. lead to delays in the review process, A copy of this reply has been sent to Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo Valuation Office: ICT MP, Minister of State for Children, Young People and Families, and will be placed in the library of both Houses. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 19 October 2009: Communities and Local Government what proportion Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as of the Valuation Office Agency’s domestic property Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for response. (UIN 294638) attribute data has been digitised; what the targets for To protect families and especially vulnerable siblings, the executive full digitisation are; and what the total cost of the summaries of all serious case reviews are anonymised prior to digitisation project is. [293256] publication by Local Safeguarding Children Boards. To enable inspectors to link each serious case review accurately Barbara Follett: All of the Valuation Office Agency’s with the notification of the specific incident, Ofsted records all (VOA) domestic property attribute data is digitised. serious case reviews under children’s actual names or initials and not the pseudonym which may be used for the executive summary For the cost for digitising the VOAs property attribute when it is published. It is not possible therefore for Ofsted to data, I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on provide details of the executive summary titles later used by the 9 January 2006, Official Report, column 268W. Local Safeguarding Children Boards. 1405W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1406W

Ofsted does provide details of the date of its evaluations by DCSF: 2008/09 local authority and has included a full list of the 173 serious case Publication Expenditure (£) reviews as an annex to the report. Sunday Mirror 75,036 Using this information, it is possible to access each of the executive summaries through a helpful web link hosted by the Sunday Telegraph 68,430 National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children: The Guardian 69,656 The Independent 24,630 http://www.nspcc.org.uk/inform/factsandfigures/readinglists/ serious_case_reviews_2009_wda62916,.html The Independent on Sunday 12,850 The Mail on Sunday 100,650 A copy of this reply has been sent to Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo The Observer 32,600 MP, Minister of State for Children, Young People and Families, and will be placed in the library of both Houses. The Sun 299,550 The Sunday Times 218,400 The Times 94,600 Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 1,905,183 Children, Schools and Families with reference to the Ofsted report entitled Learning lessons from serious case reviews: year 2, what steps he is taking in respect Departmental Consultants of those serious case reviews which were found to be inadequate. [294639] Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what his latest estimate is of Dawn Primarolo: Since 1 December 2008 all Local expenditure by his Department and its predecessor on Safeguarding Children Boards responsible for serious all forms of consultancy for each (a) year and (b) case reviews which have been judged inadequate convene quarter from 31 March 1997; and if he will make a an independently chaired panel to reconsider the review statement. [293396] before sending a report to the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families, and copied to Ofsted, Ms Diana R. Johnson: Figures for the former Department which addresses the review’s inadequacies. This process for Education and Skills show that it spent the following was applied retrospectively to all serious case reviews sums from administration costs (the Department’s internal which Ofsted had evaluated as inadequate, as well as to running costs) on consultancy from 1997. those receiving an inadequate judgment after 1 December. Ofsted reported that 62 out of the 63 reports received £ million by 31 March 2009 following inadequate SCRs were 1997-98 3.9 judged to be satisfactory. A further report was requested 1998-99 5.0 in respect of the one inadequate report; the revised 1999-2000 3.7 version was judged by Ofsted as satisfactory. Ofsted 2000-01 4.3 noted in their report that the reconsiderations had 2001-02 5.0 resulted in greatly strengthened reviews and valuable 2002-03 4.0 lessons learnt with regard to safeguarding practice. 2003-04 4.7 These arrangements are reflected in new draft guidance 2004-05 3.9 currently subject to public consultation (chapter 8 of “Working Together to Safeguard Children”). The costs of consultancy charged to programmes budgets (supporting external front-line delivery) before November 2004 were not recorded centrally, and could Departmental Advertising now be provided only at disproportionate cost. The total cost of consultancy charged to programmes from November to March 2004-05 was £4.4 million. Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for From the year 2005/06, consultancy costs as a whole Children, Schools and Families how much his have been captured. Set out as follows are comparable Department spent on newspaper advertising carried in annual consultancy costs for the Department; your each newspaper in the most recent year for which request for quarterly expenditure details is however one figures are available. [289511] which could be met only at disproportionate cost. Expenditure on consultants Ms Diana R. Johnson: Expenditure on newspaper £ million advertising by the Department for Children, Schools and Families for the period April 2008 to March 2009 is 2005/06 21.5 outlined in the following table. 2006/07 45.1 2007/08 61.4 DCSF: 2008/09 2008/09 59.2 Publication Expenditure (£)

Daily Express 104,980 Departmental Internet Daily Mail 312,327 Daily Mirror 141,500 Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Daily Star 37,480 Children, Schools and Families which officials in his Daily Star on Sunday 6,950 Department write the tweets on his Department’s Daily Telegraph 113,148 Twitter site. [293376] Financial Times 25,000 News of the World 120,901 Sunday Express 46,495 Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department’s Twitter channel is managed by the Digital Communications 1407W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1408W

Unit. Updates to it form part of the business as usual Departmental report allocation 2010-11 editorial process for corporate news updates. For some Programme details £000 policy announcements, officials from across the Department (c) Qualifications and Curriculum will provide the draft text for updates, which are then reviewed and edited as necessary. Qualifications and Curriculum 91,762 Qualifications and Curriculum total 91,762 Departmental NDPBs (d) Youth Programmes Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Contact Point (Capital) 35,200 Schools and Families what budget his Department has Youth Challenge Fund 4,300 agreed with each of its non-departmental bodies for Workforce Development Capital Grant 218 the period 2009 to 2011. [283290] National Youth Agency (NYA)/National 8,000 Voluntary Youth Agency (NVYO) Grants Children and Families Directorate (CFD) Capital 21,334 Ms Diana R. Johnson: Funding has only been agreed Grant for 2009-10 and is shown in the following table. Voluntary Child Services (VCS) Children Young 21,802 2009-10 People and Families (CYPF) Grant and capacity improving Name £ million Communications/Participation/Child and 864 British Educational Communications and 43 Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAHMS) Technology Agency (BECTA) Vetting and Barring Scheme (VBS)/Integrated 59,523 Children and Family Court Advisory and 124 Children’s System (ICS)/Making Safeguarding Support Service (CAFCASS) Everyone’s Responsibility (MSER)/Adoption Strategy/Quality Protects (QP) Children’s Workforce Development Council 70 (CWDC) Family Fund Trust/Contact a Family 23,322 National College for School Leadership 86 10 Year Strategy Additions 66,000 (NCSL) Youth Sector Support 40,000 Partnership for Schools (PFS) 21 Peer Mentoring 240 Qualifications and Curriculum Authority 132 Youth Programmes total 280,803 (QCA) School Food Trust (SFT) 7 (e) Other Standards Fund Training and Development Agency for Schools 708 (TDA) Standards Fund Current 2,213,161 11 Million 3 Other Standards Fund total 2,213,161

Departmental Public Expenditure (f) School Standards Grant School Standard Grants 1,665,925 Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for School Standards Grant total 1,665,925 Children, Schools and Families with reference to table 8.4 of his Department’s annual report for 2009, which (g) Academies individual programmes and corresponding allocations for 2010-11 are aggregated under the items (a) Sure City Academy recurrent 284,312 Start, (b) 14-19 Development, (c) Qualifications and Academies total 284,312 Curriculum, (d) Youth Programmes, (e) other students’ fund, (f) school standards grants and (g) Education: Finance academies. [292052] Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department’s programmes Schools and Families what resources from which shown aggregated in DCSF’s Departmental Annual standards funds have been allocated by his Department Report 2009 for the year 2010-11 are provided in the in the last 12 months. [293405] following table: Departmental report allocation 2010-11 Mr. Coaker: The following table shows the Standards Programme details £000 Fund allocations made to local authorities for 2008-09 and 2009-10 to date. (a) Sure Start Standards Fund allocations to local authorities Sure Start: Other Current Programmes 72,309 £ million Sure Start LA Current Grants 1,540,382 2008-09 2009-10 Childcare Initiative 41,900 Sure Start—LA Capital Grants 315,025 Revenue Grants Extended Schools and Study Support 457,466 School Development Grant 1,915.0 1,950.8 Sure Start total 2,427,082 School Lunch Grant 78.8 78.8 Ethnic Minority Achievement Grant 184.9 194.0 (b) 14-19 Development Targeted Improvement Grant1 12.2 15.1 14-19 Local Delivery 116,681 Making Good Progress 7.7 126.6 14-19 Diploma Costs 25,500 1-2-1 Tuition and Participation Key Stage 2 15.7 — early roll out2 Attainment at 19 30,071 Extended Schools—Sustainability 73.5 134.5 Bridging Allowances and Community Industry 1,455 Pensions Extended Schools Subsidy 7.1 37.8 14-19 Development total 173,707 Targeted Support for the Primary National 195.8 220.3 Strategy 1409W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1410W

Standards Fund allocations to local authorities Social Workers: Young Offender Institutions £ million 2008-09 2009-10 Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for

Targeted Support for the Secondary National 109.5 108.3 Children, Schools and Families how many social Strategy workers have worked full-time in young offender City Challenge1 32.8 10.13 institutions in each year since 1997. [293649] Extending and increasing flexibility of free 80.0 170.0 entitlement for 3-4 year olds Maria Eagle: I have been asked to reply. Music 82.6 82.5 The information requested is not held centrally and Playing for Success 12.8 13.1 could be provided only at a disproportionate cost. Key Stage 4 Engagement Programme 17.0 18.5 Vetting: Appeals National Challenge1 54.9 37.3 Total Revenue Grants 2,880.2 3197.7 Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many people Capital Grants3 convicted of each type of offence have successfully Devolved Formula Capital 802.0 1,090.5 appealed against automatic barring from working with Building Schools for the Future (BSF)4 635.8 849.4 children. [293543] Primary Capital Programme 143.5 734.8 Targeted Capital Fund (TCF)—Standards 53.6 66.8 Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 16 October 2009]: and Diversity No individuals who have been automatically placed on Targeted Capital Fund (TCF)—One School 435.4 329.0 list 99 and barred from working with children have Pathfinders successfully appealed against automatic barring from Targeted Capital Fund (TCF)—Main 170.5 9.5 working with children. Programme Targeted Capital Fund (TCF)—Kitchens 8.3 47.1 Targeted Capital Fund (TCF)—Cookery in 1.0 30.1 the Curriculum TREASURY Targeted Capital Fund (TCF)—14-19 — 302.3 Adjudicator’s Office Diploma/SEN Targeted Capital Fund (TCF)—Specialist — 22.0 Sports Colleges5 Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the Modernisation — 300.6 Exchequer what training staff of the Adjudicator’s Harnessing Technology 200.8 200.8 Office receive in respect of handling (a) complaints Framework Academies4 101.3 263.0 and (b) applications for compensation. [294632] Extended Schools (Capital) 84.0 89.0 Mr. Timms: New staff at the Adjudicator’s Office Miscellaneous Capital 24.8 34.7 normally receive a 13 module training programme when Basic Need Safety Valve 22.7 19.3 they join the office. This programme includes separate City Learning Centres 15.8 15.8 modules on complaints handling and redress Specialist Schools Capital 17.5 12.9 (compensation). School Travel Plans 15.4 11.0 Home Access for Targeted Groups6 18.0 — Consolidated Contractors Corporation Total Capital Grants 2,750.3 4,428.6 1 Further allocations to be made during 2009-10 as projects progress. David Davis: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2 Within Making Good Progress from 2009-10. what (a) meetings, (b) communications and (c) other 3 From October 2009 the Department has transferred certain of its operational functions in relation to schools capital funding, including capital grant payments contacts Ministers and officials in his Department have to local authorities, to Partnerships for Schools. had with the Consolidated Contractors Corporation 4 Full year spend for 2009-10 could reach £1,010 million (BSF) and £350 million (CCC Group) and its international offshoots in the last (Framework Academies) if projects in the pipeline reach their expected milestones during the year. five years. [294381] 5 Part of TCF Standards and Diversity programme in 2008-09. 6 Home Access Programme will be not routed through local authorities in Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials 2009-10. have meetings with a wide variety of organisations in Pupils: Migration the public and private sectors as part of the process of policy development and delivery. As was the case with Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s Schools and Families what estimate he has made of the practice to provide details of all such meetings. level of pupil mobility in (a) primary and (b) Council of Economic Advisers: Departmental secondary schools in each local education authority in Responsibilities 2007-08. [286238] Mr. Tyrie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if Mr. Coaker [holding answer 20 July 2009]: The DCSF he will place in the Library a copy of the job does not publish any estimates of pupil mobility. Estimates specification and terms of reference for members of his of pupil mobility in primary and secondary schools are Department’s Council of Economic Advisers who have provided here using the mobility indicators that form the status of special advisers. [292600] part of the DCSF’s Contextual Value Added (CVA) models. These identify pupils as mobile if they join a Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Prime Minister provides school at non standard times. Only pupils at the end of Parliament with details of special advisers through an Key Stage 2 and the end of Key Stage 4 in 2007/08 are annual written ministerial statement. This includes members included in the figures. A copy of these tables has been of the Council of Economic Advisers, who are appointed placed in the Libraries. on special adviser terms. 1411W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1412W

The terms of reference for the Council of Economic Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Ministers and officials meet Advisers are: the FSA on a regular basis to discuss a wide range of “To advise the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the design and issues. implementation of policies for the achievement of the Government’s The paper “Reforming Financial Markets”, published economic objectives.” on 8 July 2009, sets out the Government’s approach to reforming regulation of financial services. Departmental ICT Government: Assets Justine Greening: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what IT systems have been in development Mr. Tyrie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for use within his Department in the last five years, pursuant to the answer of 12 October 2009, Official what the reasons for the development of each system Report, columns 23-28, on sale of Government assets, are; how much has been spent on the development of what valuation his Department placed in October 2007 each system; and which systems have subsequently on (a) the Tote, (b) the Dartford Crossing, (c) the been (a) implemented, (b) terminated prior to student loan book, (d) the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, implementation and (c) terminated following (e) the central Government property proposed for sale and (f) the local authority assets proposed for sale. implementation. [290597] [293443] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The following table summarises the information requested for expenditure over £0.1 Mr. Byrne: Publishing details of valuations of million on IT systems developed within HM Treasury Government assets ahead of any commercial negotiations in the five years to October 2009. with potential buyers would undermine the value for money of any disposal. However, departmental and Reason for Amount spent national accounts provide some details of the book System name development Status (£ million) value of Government assets.

Budget and Secure single data Implemented 0.2 Inheritance Tax: Housing Finance Bill repository for Database Budget and pre- Budget report data Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the management and Exchequer pursuant to the Answer of 9 July 2009, reporting Official Report, column 967W, on Taxation: Valuation Office, how many inheritance tax valuations submitted In respect of the Department’s Corporate Shared by taxpayers were adjusted following a challenge by the Services Programme, which had an IT-enabling element Valuation Office Agency in (a) 2004-05, (b) 2003-04, to underpin the shared Human Resource service for (c) 2002-03 and (d) 2001-02. [294446] people in HM Treasury and the Office of Government Commerce, I refer the hon. Lady to the answer my Ian Pearson: The number of inheritance tax cases in predecessor gave to the hon. Member for Cardiff, Central which the valuations submitted by taxpayers were adjusted (Jenny Willott) on 28 January 2009, Official Report, following a challenge by the Valuation Office Agency in column 584W. It is not possible to disaggregate the cost 2004-05 was 6,169. Figures for the earlier years cannot of the IT-enabled element from the overall costs of the be obtained without incurring disproportionate cost. programme. Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines: Financial Economic Situation: Leeds Services

John Battle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Hague: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment his Department has made of the effect pursuant to the written ministerial statement of of the recession on the economy in Leeds West 12 October 2009, Official Report, column 1WS, on constituency; and if he will make a statement. [294022] delegated legislation (counter terrorism), how many offices the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government recognise that maintains in the UK; whether they will be required to the global economic downturn has affected all regions be closed; and if he will make a statement. [293789] within the UK. Yorkshire Forward, as the regional development agency in the region, has taken forward a Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Companies House records state number of initiatives to provide assistance to families that the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines (IRISL) and businesses in these difficult times. The Chancellor has one registered office in the UK. will provide an update on the state of the economy at a The direction contained in the Financial Restrictions national level in the 2009 pre-Budget report later this (Iran) Order 2009 requires all UK financial and credit autumn. institutions to cease business relationships and transactions with both Bank Mellat and IRISL, and their branches, Financial Services wherever they are located. It does not require the IRISL office in the UK to be closed. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Research and Development Tax Credit Exchequer what discussions he has had with the Chairman of the Financial Services Authority on the Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the social usefulness of activities of the financial services Exchequer what recent representations he has received sector. [293993] on the research and development tax credit. [294584] 1413W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1414W

Ian Pearson: Treasury Ministers and officials receive by his proposed amendments to the furnished holiday representations from a wide variety of organisations in letting rules. [294476] the public and private sectors as part of the process of policy development and delivery. As was the case with Mr. Timms: From the information supplied in the previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s 2007-08 income tax returns, HM Revenue and Customs practice to provide details of all such representations. estimate that the repeal of the furnished holiday lettings rules from April 2010 will affect approximately 75,000 Taxation: Holiday Accommodation properties. An impact assessment will be published at the 2009 Lembit Öpik: To ask the Chancellor of the pre-Budget Report alongside draft legislation. Exchequer how many people obtained relief under the furnished holiday letting rules for occupancy rates of Valuation Office (a) 10, (b) 15, (c) 20 and (d) more than 25 weeks in the 2007-08 tax year; and if he will make a statement. [294435] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a gateway review was undertaken Mr. Timms: HMRC administrative systems do not in relation to the Valuation Office Agency’s hold information about the occupancy rates of let property, Geographical Information System. [292636] including properties let by those obtaining relief under the furnished holiday lettings rules. Ian Pearson: The OGC Gateway review process applies An impact assessment will be published at the 2009 to all major projects across Government and is designed pre-Budget report alongside draft legislation. to ensure high standards of project management. OGC has not carried out a Gateway review of the Lembit Öpik: To ask the Chancellor of the VOA GIS project as it does not fall into the category of Exchequer whether following the abolition of the a major project. The VOA’s GIS project has been categorised furnished holiday letting rules owners of self-catering as low risk and is therefore subject to a different level of cottages and owners of bed and breakfast review. establishments will be subject to the same taxation regime. [294473] Valuation Office: Data Protection

Mr. Timms: Following abolition of the Furnished Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Holiday Letting rules, the owners of most self catering Exchequer pursuant to the Answer to the hon. Member cottages will be taxed on the basis that they are carrying for Ludlow of 14 September 2009, Official Report, on a property business, but where additional services column 2134W, on the Valuation Office: data are provided, some or all of the activities may amount protection, whether photographs of dwellings held on to a trade. the Valuation Office Agency’s photographic database There are long established rules for deciding whether are treated as personal data. [294361] an activity is a trade. Under these rules, running a bed and breakfast establishment is normally a trade. Ian Pearson: All data, including photographs, which qualified as personal data in accordance with paragraph Lembit Öpik: To ask the Chancellor of the 1.1 of the Data Protection Act 1998 is treated in accordance Exchequer what recent discussions his Department has with that Act by the Valuation Office Agency. had with European Commission on the furnished holiday letting rules; and if he will make a statement. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the [294474] Exchequer pursuant to the Answer to the hon. Member for Ludlow of 14 September 2009, Official Report, Mr. Timms: The Government discuss a range of column 2134W, on the Valuation Office: data issues with the European Commission. As was the case protection, since what date the Valuation Office with the previous Administration, it is not the Government’s Agency has treated domestic property attribute data on practice to provide details of these discussions. individual dwellings as personal data. [294367] Lembit Öpik: To ask the Chancellor of the Ian Pearson: Since 1998, all data, including domestic Exchequer how many (a) organisations and (b) property attributes, which qualified as personal data in individuals have made representations against his plans accordance with paragraph 1.1 of the Data Protection to amend the furnished holiday letting rules since those Act 1998 is treated in accordance with that Act by the plans were announced; and if he will make a statement. Valuation Office Agency. [294475]

Mr. Timms: Treasury Ministers and officials receive Valuation Office: Land Registry representations from a wide variety of organisations in the public and private sectors as part of the process of Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the policy development and delivery. As was the case with Exchequer how much the Valuation Office Agency has previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s spent on the Land Registry Direct service since practice to provide details of all such representations. February 2007. [294531]

Lembit Öpik: To ask the Chancellor of the Ian Pearson: Over the period February 2007 to September Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of 2009, the VOA spent £56,831 on the Land Registry holiday cottages owned by those who will be affected Direct service. 1415W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1416W

Valuation Office: Training Welfare Tax Credits

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer pursuant to the Answer of 21 May 2009, if he will estimate the effect on public expenditure of Official Report, column 1514W, on the Valuation removing the second income threshold on tax credits Office: training, what the content of the Euclidian and applying a consistent taper rate of (a) 40 per cent., programme is. [294444] (b) 41 per cent. and (c) 42 per cent. in each of the next five years; and if he will estimate the number of people Ian Pearson: Euclidian is a suite of web-based interactive who would have their awards reduced to zero in each learning tools designed and developed by the Institute case. [293380] of Revenues Rating and Valuation (IRRV). The programmes, which cover a variety of benefit and revenue Mr. Timms [holding answer 15 October 2009]: The topics, are predominantly aimed at people working in estimated savings from 2010-11 to 2014-15 from removing local authorities. the second income threshold and applying a consistent taper rate at each of the rates requested, is provided in Euclidian is hosted on the IRRV website at: the following table. No account has been taken of www.irrvlearning.org.uk possible behavioural effects.

Effect on expenditure £ million Taper rate 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15

40 per cent. -1,010 -1,020 -1,000 -990 -960 41 per cent. -1,290 -1,320 -1,310 -1,310 -1,300 42 per cent. -1,560 -1,600 -1,610 -1,620 -1,630

Estimates of the additional number of claimants who Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. would have their awards tapered to zero if these measures The information requested falls within the responsibility were implemented immediately are shown in the following of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority table. to reply. Additional number of claimants with awards tapered to zero Letter from Jil Matheson, dated October 2009: Thousand As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your 40 per cent. 1,520 recent questions asking: 41 per cent. 1,590 What proportion of babies born in each primary care trust area of England were of low birth weight in the period since 1997. 42 per cent. 1,640 (293188) What percentage of babies born alive had a birth weight of less Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer than 2.5 kg in (a) England, (b) each strategic health authority and if he will estimate the effect on the Exchequer of (c) each primary care trust area in each of the last three years. reducing the income disregard for tax credits from (293187) £25,000 to (a) £2,500 and (b) £0 in each of the next The table attached provides the percentage of live births that five years. [293572] were of low birth weight (less than 2.5kg) in: (a) England, (b) each strategic health authority and (c) each primary care organisation area for 1997 to 2008 (the latest year available). Mr. Timms: This information requested is available A copy has been placed in the House of Commons Library. only at disproportionate cost due to the complexity of the computations and assumptions involved. Reducing Figures for 15 primary care organisations have been suppressed the income disregard would result in significant additional because of small numbers, in order to protect the privacy of individual mothers and babies. overpayments being generated. The extent to which these impact on the Exchequer will depend on the timing of these overpayments and whether or not they are ultimately recovered. There may also be a behavioural CABINET OFFICE effect as incentives to report income changes could also be affected. Charities The hon. Member may find it informative to refer to the answer given to the hon. Member for Rayleigh Jenny Willott: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (Mr. Francois), on 7 November 2006, Official Report, Office pursuant to the answer of 12 May 2009, Official column 1043-1044W, regarding the estimated cost of Report, columns 690-92W, on charities: insolvency, (1) increasing the income disregard from £2,500 to £25,000. how many registered charities have declared themselves insolvent in each month since March 2009; and if she Low Birthweight Babies will make a statement; [294028] (2) pursuant to the answer of 6 July 2009, Official Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Report, columns 251-53W, on charities, how many what proportion of babies born in each primary care charities there were on the Charity Commission trust area were of low birth weight in the period since register in each month since March 2009; and if she 1997. [293188] will make a statement. [294029] 1417W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1418W

Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls With regard to how many registered charities declared themselves within the responsibility of the Charity Commission. I insolvent in each month since March 2009, the Charity Commission have asked the Commission to reply. does not currently record this information centrally. However, I have set out the number of charities who were removed from the Letter from Andrew Hind, dated October 2009: register, in each month, since March 2009 with the reasons As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, I have recorded for their removal. been asked to respond to your written Parliamentary Question on The table below refers to those charities which are required to how many registered charities declared themselves insolvent in register with the Commission by law. Smaller charities are not each month since March 2009; and how many charities have been required to register with us; the threshold for registration was an on the Charity Commission register in each month since March annual income of £1,000 until April 2007 when this threshold was 2009. increased to £5,000.

Number 2009 Reason for removal March April May June July August September Total

Ceased to exist or 103 188 90 124 214 74 141 934 operate due to merger, incorporation or transfer of funds Ceased to exist or 328 290 195 247 559 2,553 6,277 10,449 operate for other reasons Voluntary 300 1,379 739 216 108 69 52 2,863 removal of charities below the minimum registration threshold Duplicate 6172334035 registrations and other corrections Total 737 1,874 1,026 590 884 2,700 6,470 14,281

Charities removed from the Register due to insolvency are removal of charities that are inactive and with which we can no likely to have fallen under the category “Ceased to exist or longer establish contact. The marked peak of removals of charities operate for other reasons”. However, it is unlikely that insolvency that have ceased to exist or operate in September 2009 is a direct accounts for more than a small minority. consequence of this strategy. The increase in numbers of charities removed from August With regard to how many charities have been on the Charity 2009 is a result of our work to improve the accuracy of the Commission register in each month since March 2009, please see Register of Charities. A key aspect of our strategy is the prompt the table below.

Number 2009 31 March April May June July August September

Main charities 166,132 164,847 164,368 164,388 164,144 162,417 157,415 Linked charities 22,769 22,662 22,657 22,639 22,486 22,083 21,305 Total 188,901 187,509 187,025 187,027 186,630 184,500 178,720

Main charities are those required to prepare accounts and send £1.7 million has been provided to organisations in and an Annual Return or Annual Update to the Commission. Linked around the Leeds area: charities, such as subsidiary, group or constituent charities are each linked to a main charity for administrative purposes and do The Hardship Fund made three awards to organisations in not report their financial results in their own right. Leeds totalling £228,498. It is a rather complex picture because of the unusually high The Targeted Support Fund made 55 grants, which totalled number of charities removed from the Register in recent months. £1.38 million in Calderdale, Kirklees, Wakefield and Bradford. I would be happy to give you a more detailed background briefing if that would be helpful. Nine organisations in the Leeds local authority area were successfully awarded Modernisation Fund bursaries (worth Charities: Government Assistance £9,000 in total). One organisation has received a Modernisation Fund loan in Leeds for £100,000. John Battle: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet As part of Government’s response to recession, the Department Office what support her Department has made for Work and Pensions is working with Voluntary Action available to charities in the Leeds area during the Leeds to provide volunteer brokerage to individuals that have recession; and if she will make a statement. [294014] been unemployed for longer than six months. A regional roadshow was held in the Yorkshire and Humber Angela E. Smith: As part of the Government region on 21 April 2009 to promote the Government’s recession support for the third sector during the recession, over support measures. 1419W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1420W

I am pleased that many third sector organisations in Teenage Pregnancy the Leeds area have been successful in accessing the Government’s recession measures. This support is in Tim Loughton: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet addition to the £515 million that Government are already Office how many maternities of mothers aged under providing to support the third sector across England 20 years there were in each constituency in England in through its core programmes. each year since 1997. [294606]

Internet: Advertising Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Annette Brooke: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet I have asked the authority to reply. Office when the (a) Central Sponsor for Information Letter from Jil Matheson, dated October 2009: Assurance and (b) Centre for Protection of National Infrastructure was informed that trials of 121 Media/ As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking how many maternities of Phorm systems had taken place. [294373] mothers aged under 20 years there were in each constituency in England in each year since 1997. (294606) Angela E. Smith: The Information Security and Assurance (ISA) team (formerly the Central Sponsor The table provides the number of maternities among women under the age of 20 years for each parliamentary constituency in for Information Assurance) within the Cabinet Office England, for 1997 to 2007 (the most recent year for which figures has the lead strategic role in setting and co-ordinating are available). A copy of the table has been placed in the House of data handling policy for government and for delivering Commons Library. the National Information Assurance Strategy. ISA does not determine which particular systems, or Telephone Services ICT products are used within the UK and as such ISA would not be informed officially of any trials carried Mark Williams: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet out by 121 Media/Phorm systems. Office what the Government’s policy is on call charges The Centre for Protection of National Infrastructure by Government Departments for hon. Members for use reports to the Home Office and is accountable to the of a telephone hotline on behalf of their constituents; director general of the Security Service. and if she will make a statement. [292831] Lord Ashcroft Angela E. Smith: There are currently no plans to consider special charging arrangements for Members of Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister for the Parliament calling government service providers on behalf Cabinet Office on which dates her Department passed of constituents. material to the Information Commissioner in connection with the Freedom of Information request Unemployment: Chelmsford lodged by the hon. Member for Pendle pertaining to Lord Ashcroft. [293198] Mr. Burns: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) how many people aged between 16 and 24 years in Tessa Jowell: I refer the hon. Member to the replies I (a) Chelmsford local authority area and (b) West gave him on 14 July 2009, Official Report, columns Chelmsford constituency had been unemployed for 340-41W and 15 July 2009, Official Report, column over (i) six and (ii) 12 months in each of the last six 462W. months; [294057] (2) how many people aged between 16 and 24 years Performing Arts in (a) Chelmsford local authority area and (b) West Chelmsford constituency were unemployed in (i) May Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 1997 and (ii) each of the last six months for which what guidance her Department has issued to (a) figures are available. [294058] executive agencies and (b) non-departmental public bodies on the hiring from public funds of celebrities for Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls (i) endorsement and (ii) other marketing purposes. within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. [292096] I have asked the authority to reply. Tessa Jowell [holding answer 12 October 2009]: The Letter from Jil Matheson, dated October 2009: Cabinet Office has not issued guidance to (a) executive As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your agencies and (b) non-departmental public bodies on Parliamentary Questions asking how many people aged between 16 and 24 years in (a) Chelmsford local authority area and (b) the hiring of celebrities using public funds for (i) West Chelmsford Parliamentary constituency have been unemployed endorsement and (ii) other marketing purposes. for over (i) six and (ii) 12 months in each of the last six months; Government Departments, their agencies and NDPBs and how many people aged between 16 and 24 years in (a) decide their own communication priorities and will seek Chelmsford local authority area and (b) West Chelmsford to make use of the most effective and cost efficient Parliamentary constituency were unemployed in (i) May 1997 techniques to achieve their communications objectives. and (ii) each of the last six months for which figures are available. (294057 & 294058) The use of personalities is one such approach which can help engage people extremely effectively. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey and All Government communications activities are subject its predecessor the annual Labour Force Survey (LFS) following to strict propriety guidance, which, along with relevant International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. codes of conduct and guidance, define how public However, estimates of unemployment for the requested age servants can properly, efficiently and effectively present bands and geographies are not available. As an alternative, in government policies and programmes. Table I we have provided the number of persons, aged 16 to 24, 1421W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1422W claiming Jobseeker*s Allowance, in the requested geographies, for Mr. McFadden: On 22 September 2009 BIS launched (a) over 6 months and (b) over 12 months in September 2009 and a £2.5 million awareness raising campaign aimed at the previous 5 months. Table 2 contains the number of persons promoting the Pay and Work Rights Helpline to vulnerable aged 16 to 24 claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in the requested workers and employers. This includes communications geographies for (a) May 1997 and (b) September 2009 and the previous 5 months. in national press, radio, leaflets, online, and face-to-face National and local area estimates for many labour market activity. Areas covered by the GLA have been included statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant in this messaging and a specific element aimed at count are available on the NOMIS website at: gangmasters and their workers is planned. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk. Higher Education: Admissions Table 1: Number of people aged 16 to 24 claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in Chelmsford Local Authority and West Chelmsford Parliamentary constituency for over 6 months and 12 months. John Battle: To ask the Minister of State, Chelmsford West Chelmsford Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how over six over12 over six over12 many school students from Leeds West constituency Date months months months months entered higher education in the academic year 2008-09. April 2009 115 5 85 5 [294020] May 2009 130 10 100 5 June 2009 155 10 115 5 Mr. Lammy: It is not possible to identify whether July 2009 145 10 105 10 entrants to higher education from Leeds West constituency August 2009 170 10 120 10 attended schools or further education colleges. The September 150 10 110 10 number of 18 and 19-year-old undergraduate entrants 2009 from Leeds West constituency is given as an alternative. 1. Data have been rounded to nearest five. 2. People claiming for over 12 months are included in the counts of people The latest information from the Higher Education claiming for over six months. Statistics Agency (HESA) shows that in the 2007-08 Source: academic year there were 180 undergraduate entrants to Jobcentreplus administrative system higher education, aged 18 or 19, from Leeds West Table 2: Number of people aged 16 to 24 claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in constituency. Chelmsford Local Authority and West Chelmsford Parliamentary constituency. Undergraduate entrants from Leeds West constituency Date Chelmsford West Chelmsford are defined by full and valid home post codes recorded May 1997 565 385 for the student in the HESA student record. Some of April 2009 850 585 these students, although resident in Leeds West, may May 2009 850 595 not have attended schools in Leeds West constituency. June 2009 800 560 Figures for the 2008-09 academic year will be available July 2009 845 590 from HESA in January 2010. August 2009 900 630 September 870 610 Higher Education: Greater London 2009 Note: Data have been rounded to nearest five. Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Minister of State, Source: Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Jobcentreplus administrative system percentage of school leavers from each London borough went on to begin a university course in each of the last five academic years; and if he will make a BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS statement. [293047] Gangmasters: Telephone Services Mr. Lammy: The Department does not collect data on the number of school leavers, who are resident in a Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister of State, particular area, who do not go on to higher education. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Therefore, it is not possible to calculate the percentage mechanism exists for his Department’s Pay and Work of school leavers from London boroughs who do go on Rights telephone helpline service to work in to higher education. conjunction with the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. [293761] It is not possible to identify whether entrants to higher education from London boroughs attended schools Mr. McFadden: The Gangmasters Licensing Authority or further education colleges. (GLA) was closely involved in the design and set-up of The numbers of 18-year-old undergraduate entrants the Pay and Work Rights helpline, and relevant cases to higher education from London local authorities, in are automatically referred through to them. The GLA each of the last five academic years, are shown as an is a member of the Fair Employment Enforcement alternative in the table. Board and involved in several other joint-working bodies Figures for the 2008/09 academic year will be available supporting the helpline and related campaign. in January 2010. 18-year-old undergraduate entrants1, from London local authorities2, UK higher Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister of State, 3 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what education institutions , academic years 2003/04 to 2007/08 steps he has taken to publicise his Department’s Pay 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 and Work Rights telephone helpline service to City of London 10 10 5 15 10 vulnerable workers, including those employed by Camden 350 350 445 420 405 gangmasters. [293762] Greenwich 435 475 455 550 570 1423W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1424W

18-year-old undergraduate entrants1, from London local authorities2, UK higher 3. BIS are also funding a full time inter-faith and Prevent education institutions3, academic years 2003/04 to 2007/08 officer at the NUS to work specifically to raise awareness and 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 undertake training of NUS staff and officers.

Hackney 335 385 465 460 460 4. Funding is being given to the Association of Muslim Chaplains in Higher Education through the CLG Community Leadership Hammersmith and 265 285 315 310 320 Fulham Fund to help them increase their capacity to support Muslim Islington 295 295 385 370 390 Chaplains working in HE and enable to them to deliver more effective pastoral support for Muslim students. Kensington and 255 295 330 295 345 Chelsea Higher Education: Student Numbers Lambeth 480 455 570 575 590 Lewisham 515 535 625 645 690 Southwark 520 450 575 550 595 Jim Cousins: To ask the Minister of State, Tower Hamlets 465 510 540 545 555 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Wandsworth 435 445 515 455 555 many (a) UK and (b) overseas students there were at Westminster 325 330 385 415 385 each university in (i) 2004-05, (ii) 2007-08 and (iii) Barking and 255 305 350 345 395 2008-09. [293184] Dagenham Barnet 1,075 1,220 1,345 1,405 1,345 Mr. Lammy: The numbers of UK and overseas students Bexley 595 620 665 690 740 enrolled at UK higher education institutions in 2004-05 Brent 950 1,020 1,120 1,095 1,080 and 2007-08 are given in Table 1 and Table 2. Enrolment Bromley 935 1,040 1,095 1,170 1,135 numbers for 2004-05 and 2007-08 may not be directly Croydon 1,055 1,100 1,200 1,225 1,300 comparable due to institutions changing their names Ealing 955 1,005 1,170 1,175 1,105 and/or merging. Enfield 930 1,010 1,135 1,140 1,100 Figures for the 2008/09 academic year will be available Haringey 475 510 600 600 610 in January 2010. Harrow 1,100 1,180 1,185 1,245 1,245 Table 1: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher Havering 550 600 650 685 690 education institutions, academic year 2004-05 Hillingdon 770 785 840 925 860 Region of student domicile Hounslow 690 665 745 775 760 Other Kingston upon 455 560 635 575 585 Institution UK EU overseas Thames Merton 470 505 570 560 600 Open University 173,010 5 5 Newham 755 800 870 1,000 1,020 Cranfield University 2,825 940 800 Redbridge 1,060 1,070 1,220 1,335 1,285 Royal College of Art 535 200 130 Richmond upon 525 540 685 645 630 Royal College of Nursing 850 5 25 Thames Bishop Grosseteste College 1,485 0 0 Sutton 560 615 620 670 625 Buckinghamshire Chilterns 8,130 255 895 Waltham Forest 615 615 650 735 765 University College 1 Covers entrants to full-time and part-time courses. Central School of Speech and 770 65 65 2 The table does not include entrants where the local authority area of the Drama student cannot be established due to missing or invalid information. University of Chester 12,040 210 250 3 Excludes the Open university due to inconsistencies in their coding of Canterbury Christ Church 14,015 250 355 entrants across the time series. University Note: Figures are on a standard registration population (SRP) basis and are rounded York St John College 5,515 25 180 to the nearest five. College of St Mark and St John 4,400 45 180 Source: Darlington College of Arts 510 45 20 Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). Edge Hill College of HE 14,470 90 50 Higher Education: Radicalism University College Falmouth 1,805 55 100 Harper Adams University 1,650 60 35 College Mrs. Iris Robinson: To ask the Minister of State, Homerton College 2,740 5 20 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Kent Institute of Art and 1,740 220 265 steps he is taking to minimise the influence of extremist Design Islamic activists in universities. [293660] University of Winchester 4,650 35 95 Liverpool Hope University 6,485 280 485 Mr. Lammy: There is some evidence of extremist or University of the Arts, London 8,475 1,475 2,775 radical groups or individuals operating on a handful of University of Luton 8,240 1,130 2,400 campuses. Where the problem occurs it is very serious University College 9,640 150 540 but it is not widespread. As part of HMG’s Prevent Northampton Newman College of Higher 2,305 75 10 strategy, there are a range of activities taking place Education within universities to help them manage the risk of Ravensbourne College of 950 55 90 violent extremism or radicalisation taking place within Design and Communication their institutions. Roehampton University 7,170 320 435 1. In January 2008, the former Department for Innovation, Rose Bruford College 745 55 65 Universities and Skills issues guidance to all universities in England Royal Academy of Music 410 110 205 setting out practical advice and guidance on how to increase Royal College of Music 335 135 130 cohesion on campus and manage the risk of violent extremism. Royal Northern College of 420 45 90 2. This guidance is now being followed up with targeted Music support from BIS officials and police colleagues to some universities Southampton Solent University 10,070 390 790 which fall within Prevent funded local authority areas. St Martin’s College 12,055 205 90 1425W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1426W

Table 1: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher Table 1: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher education institutions, academic year 2004-05 education institutions, academic year 2004-05 Region of student domicile Region of student domicile Other Other Institution UK EU overseas Institution UK EU overseas

St Mary’s College 3,200 290 10 Robert Gordon University 10,055 675 1,340 Trinity and All Saints College 2,440 30 35 University of Paisley 12,050 260 345 Trinity College of Music 535 165 90 Glasgow Caledonian University 14,885 315 660 Surrey Institute of Art and 2,445 135 175 Napier University 11,000 1,465 975 Design, University College Aston University 6,270 360 1,350 University College Worcester 7,290 130 120 University of Bath 10,835 830 1,800 Anglia Polytechnic University 24,055 1,155 1,085 University of Birmingham 23,615 1,020 3,865 Bath Spa University 6,010 100 160 University of Bradford 8,565 460 2,080 University of Bolton 6,685 150 600 University of Bristol 18,195 805 1,965 Bournemouth University 13,605 465 1,125 Brunel University 11,725 890 1,655 University of Brighton 17,345 1,405 1,250 University of Cambridge 19,280 1,505 3,410 University of Central England 21,240 440 1,220 City University 16,990 1,270 2,730 in Birmingham University of Durham 13,955 570 1,925 University of Central 24,440 605 1,675 Lancashire University of East Anglia 12,180 505 1,200 University of Gloucestershire 8,100 125 350 University of Essex 7,370 940 2,055 Coventry University 16,465 1,050 1,875 University of Exeter 11,920 515 1,285 University of Derby 12,920 505 495 University of Hull 17,910 665 2,235 University of East London 13,205 950 2,180 University of Keele 10,425 290 980 University of Greenwich 18,130 970 3,170 University of Kent 13,505 1,015 1,550 University of Hertfordshire 19,110 530 3,325 University of Lancaster 14,540 755 1,585 University of Huddersfield 16,635 445 795 University of Leeds 30,180 1,065 4,215 University of Lincoln 11,960 580 445 University of Leicester 13,025 620 2,300 Kingston University 17,695 1,110 1,675 University of Liverpool 17,855 620 1,865 Leeds Metropolitan University 24,675 730 2,630 Birkbeck College 13,965 290 485 Liverpool John Moores 20,145 855 1,770 Goldsmiths College 5,925 555 735 University Imperial College of Science, 7,900 1,400 2,810 Manchester Metropolitan 29,525 785 1,385 Technology and Medicine University Institute of Education 5,635 345 795 Middlesex University 18,865 1,205 4,785 King’s College London 17,410 1,450 2,315 De Montfort University 21,225 400 1,040 London Business School 580 265 770 University of Northumbria at 21,955 730 2,770 London School of Economics 3,235 1,440 3,740 Newcastle and Political Science Nottingham Trent University 24,770 555 1,065 London School of Hygiene and 405 125 440 Oxford Brookes University 15,095 905 2,200 Tropical Medicine University of Plymouth 27,095 695 1,130 Queen Mary and Westfield 8,135 545 2,080 College University of Portsmouth 17,015 1,310 2,440 Royal Holloway and Bedford 5,515 650 1,290 Sheffield Hallam University 25,365 495 2,065 New College London South Bank University 17,750 980 2,320 Royal Veterinary College 1,175 80 140 Staffordshire University 12,910 825 1,255 St George’s Hospital Medical 3,195 80 140 University of Sunderland 15,280 735 2,560 School University of Teesside 19,220 590 615 School of Oriental and African 2,180 545 1,145 Thames Valley University 17,385 1,000 1,625 Studies University of the West of 25,200 800 1,215 School of Pharmacy 1,010 45 170 England, Bristol University College London 13,940 1,830 3,805 University College Chichester 4,895 145 125 University of London 270 55 75 University of Westminster 20,790 1,840 3,670 (Institutes and activities) Wimbledon School of Art 555 45 50 Loughborough University 13,120 565 2,580 University of Wolverhampton 19,875 825 2,325 University of Newcastle-upon- 14,485 810 2,490 Tyne University of Wales, Newport 8,635 165 255 University of Nottingham 25,740 870 4,245 North-East Wales Institute of 5,235 830 75 Higher Education University of Oxford 17,225 1,625 3,770 University of Wales Institute, 8,150 255 550 University of Reading 11,935 660 1,410 Cardiff University of Salford 16,960 580 1,550 University of Glamorgan 18,865 1,005 1,460 University of Sheffield 20,985 800 3,390 Swansea Institute of Higher 5,230 205 125 University of Southampton 18,970 845 1,995 Education University of Surrey 10,995 1,360 2,510 Trinity College, Carmarthen 2,155 50 10 University of Sussex 9,945 890 980 University of Abertay Dundee 3,420 280 445 University of Warwick 21,660 1,870 5,265 Edinburgh College of Art 1,295 185 210 University of York 10,065 635 1,530 Glasgow School of Art 1,330 120 140 University of Edinburgh 18,370 1,535 2,355 Queen Margaret University 4,330 245 525 College, Edinburgh University of Glasgow 22,080 700 1,650 Royal Scottish Academy of 580 40 55 University of Strathclyde 20,300 560 1,385 Music and Drama University of Aberdeen 11,465 685 1,295 1427W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1428W

Table 1: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher Table 2: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher education institutions, academic year 2004-05 education institutions, academic year 2007-08 Region of student domicile Region of student domicile Other Other Institution UK EU overseas Institution UK EU overseas

Heriot-Watt University 6,195 745 1,255 University College Plymouth 3,525 40 185 St Mark and St John University of Dundee 14,910 555 2,040 Dartington College of Arts 585 30 10 University of 5,475 765 1,905 Edge Hill University 19,960 85 95 University of Stirling 7,485 305 585 University College Falmouth 2,205 45 70 Scottish Agricultural College 750 30 10 Harper Adams University 4,000 75 145 University of Wales, Lampeter 7,335 675 475 College University of Wales, 9,050 505 690 University of Winchester 5,015 85 140 Aberystwyth Liverpool Hope University 6,525 235 300 University of Wales, Bangor 8,680 385 435 University of the Arts, 10,195 1,660 3,505 Cardiff University 24,115 975 2,780 London University of Wales, Swansea 12,405 300 990 University of Bedfordshire 10,855 1,660 1,680 Royal Welsh College of Music 565 20 30 University of Northampton 10,550 190 845 and Drama Newman University College 2,620 60 5 Queen’s University of Belfast 21,940 1,350 880 Ravensbourne College of 895 40 75 University of Ulster 22,935 2,755 535 Design and Communication University of Wales, Registry 0 0 0 Roehampton University 7,460 315 455 Institute of Cancer Research 75 25 30 Rose Bruford College 840 60 60 Royal Academy of Music 410 125 195 Writtle College 1,025 50 95 Royal College of Music 350 135 135 Norwich School of Art and 765 25 30 Design Royal Northern College of 525 50 115 Music Northern School of 000 Contemporary Dance Southampton Solent 9,280 605 965 University Cumbria Institute of the Arts 925 105 15 University of Cumbria 11,690 260 95 Stranmillis University College 1,390 40 0 St Mary’s University College, 3,800 315 30 St. Mary’s University College 1,045 65 0 Twickenham Royal Agricultural College 625 20 45 Leeds Trinity and All Saints 2,885 40 80 UHI Millennium Institute 6,130 115 60 Trinity Laban 670 125 85 Arts Institute at Bournemouth 1,340 65 90 University of Worcester 7,350 200 215 Bell College 3,830 5 10 Anglia Ruskin University 17,150 1,090 765 Conservatoire for Dance and 750 155 85 Bath Spa University 7,290 70 105 Drama University of Bolton 7,070 190 585 Birmingham College of Food, 2,645 170 655 Bournemouth University 15,845 680 1,350 Tourism and Creative Studies University of Brighton 18,630 1,400 1,190 Courtauld Institute of Art 255 45 85 Birmingham City University 21,365 385 1,495 London Metropolitan 22,075 1,935 4,760 University of Central 25,385 1,030 4,830 University Lancashire University of Buckingham 165 45 475 University of Gloucestershire 8,010 205 300 University of Manchester 32,425 1,580 5,060 Coventry University 16,680 1,245 2,450 Total 1,939,150 93,995 203,125 University of Derby 14,735 740 675 1 Covers full-time and part-time enrolments to postgraduate and University of East London 16,055 875 2,500 undergraduate courses. University of Greenwich 19,625 1,010 3,875 Notes: 1. Figures are on a HESA Standard Registration Population (SRP) basis. University of Hertfordshire 19,170 570 3,095 2. Figures have been rounded to the nearest five and components may not sum University of Huddersfield 18,955 680 800 to totals. University of Lincoln 10,720 605 315 Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Kingston University 20,060 1,525 2,405 Leeds Metropolitan 25,175 795 1,245 Table 2: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher University education institutions, academic year 2007-08 Liverpool John Moores 21,780 795 1,875 Region of student domicile University Other The Manchester Metropolitan 30,060 1,125 1,780 Institution UK EU overseas University Middlesex University 16,880 1,380 3,360 The Open University 181,365 210 120 De Montfort University 18,875 395 1,120 Cranfield University 2,360 1,150 1,075 University of Northumbria at 24,690 80CL 4,505 Royal College of Art 575 230 145 Newcastle Bishop Grosseteste University 1,895 0 25 The Nottingham Trent 21,175 500 1,830 College Lincoln University Buckinghamshire New 8,075 475 715 Oxford Brookes University 15,065 975 1,995 University University of Plymouth 27,465 840 1,070 Central School of Speech and 770 40 70 Drama University of Portsmouth 16,845 890 1,825 University of Chester 13,135 195 185 Sheffield Hallam University 27,355 705 3,030 Canterbury Christ Church 14,455 635 460 London South Bank 19,235 1,165 1,940 University University York St John University 6,050 70 85 Staffordshire University 14,135 420 1,180 1429W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1430W

Table 2: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher Table 2: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher education institutions, academic year 2007-08 education institutions, academic year 2007-08 Region of student domicile Region of student domicile Other Other Institution UK EU overseas Institution UK EU overseas

University of Sunderland 14,530 705 2,470 Royal Holloway and Bedford 5,895 805 1,680 New College University of Teesside 23,995 595 815 The Royal Veterinary College 1,615 65 115 Thames Valley University 15,160 1,185 1,795 St Georges Hospital Medical 3,805 110 245 University of the West of 29,130 980 1,585 School England, Bristol The School of Oriental and 2,655 710 1,365 University of Chichester 4,660 75 65 African Studies University of Westminster 17,780 2,030 3,420 The School of Pharmacy 1,005 45 180 University of Wolverhampton 18,260 1,180 1,865 University College London 14,150 2,335 4,510 University of Wales, Newport 8,620 130 370 University of London 180 40 70 Glyndwr University 5,135 1,635 495 (Institutes and activities) University of Wales Institute, 8,060 230 1,615 Loughborough University 12,765 665 3,215 Cardiff University of Newcastle- 15,590 930 2,535 upon-Tyne University of Glamorgan 18,935 1,740 2,040 University of Nottingham 24,340 1,655 5,830 Swansea Metropolitan 5,185 200 210 University University of Oxford 17,560 1,975 4,445 Trinity College, Carmarthen 2,145 55 25 University of Reading 11,905 825 1,745 University of Abertay Dundee 3,105 625 405 University of Salford 16,475 910 1,800 Edinburgh College of Art 1,200 195 200 University of Sheffield 19,775 1,035 3,750 University of Southampton 19,645 1,165 2,955 Glasgow School of Art 1,325 155 270 University of Surrey 11,195 1,625 2,250 Queen Margaret University, 4,560 320 450 Edinburgh University of Sussex 10,465 890 1,100 The Royal Scottish Academy 605 45 125 University of Warwick 21,640 2,010 4,795 of Music and Drama University of York 10,460 685 2,040 The Robert Gordon 9,835 815 1,615 University of Edinburgh 18,785 1,755 3,015 University University of Glasgow 21,020 1,025 1,690 University of the West of 17,080 490 565 University of Strathclyde 19,235 565 1,940 Scotland University of Aberdeen 11,185 1,210 1,745 Glasgow Caledonian 15,215 330 1,225 University Heriot-Watt University 7,015 1,140 1,905 University of Dundee 14,120 735 1,865 Napier University 9,930 1,625 1,435 University of St Andrews 5,575 800 1,795 Aston University 7,065 495 2,010 University of Stirling 8,225 450 1,130 University of Bath 9,650 1,090 2,225 Scottish Agricultural College 850 45 25 University of Birmingham 23,110 1,185 3,945 University of Wales, Lampeter 6,660 555 670 University of Bradford 9,210 960 2,205 Aberystwyth University 8,560 745 560 University of Bristol 14,635 890 2,285 Bangor University 9,030 445 1,040 Brunel University 11,310 765 2,195 Cardiff University 22,445 945 3,20C University of Cambridge 17,520 1,790 3,435 Swansea University 12,160 345 1,36E The City University 16,100 1,805 3,505 The Queens University of 20,190 1,135 90C University of Durham 13,320 625 2,330 Belfast University of Ulster 20,720 2,510 41C University of East Anglia 13,445 580 1,670 The Institute of Cancer 225 35 4C University of Essex 8,360 1,075 2,075 Research University of Exeter 12,455 610 1,640 Writtle College 880 30 7£ University of Hull 18,420 705 1,880 Norwich University College of 1,200 15 E University of Keele 10,215 315 885 the Arts University of Kent 14,985 1,170 1,650 Stranmillis University College 1,260 35 0 University of Lancaster 11,080 885 1,755 St Mary’s University College 1,000 40 0 University of Leeds 27,020 1,185 4,045 Royal Agricultural College 740 30 115 University of Leicester 12,485 720 2,150 UHI Millennium Institute 7,420 75 90 The Arts Institute at 1,810 80 110 University of Liverpool 16,885 665 1,830 Bournemouth Birkbeck College 16,025 595 605 Conservatoire for Dance and 850 185 105 Goldsmiths College 6,055 700 740 Drama Imperial College of Science, 8,480 1,800 3,560 University College 3,000 255 665 Technology and Medicine Birmingham Institute of Education 6,230 395 760 Courtauld Institute of Art 295 55 90 Kings College London 16,955 1,675 2,480 London Metropolitan 21,600 2,370 4,005 University London Business School 500 245 810 University of Buckingham 370 65 550 London School of Economics 2,935 1,675 4,495 and Political Science University of Manchester 28,985 1,910 6,465 London School of Hygiene 545 110 440 Heythrop College 675 30 40 and Tropical Medicine University for the Creative 4,725 385 320 Queen Mary and Westfield 10,450 840 2,320 Arts College Leeds College of Music 670 15 20 1431W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1432W

Table 2: Student enrolments1 by institution and region of domicile—UK higher Mr. Lammy [holding answer 14 October 2009]: The education institutions, academic year 2007-08 income and expenditure for the National Endowment Region of student domicile for Science, Technology and the Arts (NESTA) in the Other Institution UK EU overseas last three financial years was as follows:

Guildhall School of Music 505 190 100 £000 and Drama Income Expenditure The Liverpool Institute for 735 25 125 Performing Arts 2006/07 21,987 20,531 University Campus Suffolk 4,235 20 25 2007/08 35,574 31,571 Total 1,964,315 112,150 229,640 2008/09 29,969 25,496 1 Covers full-time and part-time enrolments to postgraduate and undergraduate courses. Notes: This information can be found in NESTA’s annual 1. Figures are on a HESA Standard Registration Population (SRP) basis. report and accounts for each year, which are available in 2. Figures have been rounded to the nearest five and components may not sum the Library. to totals. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Lord Truscott Arts: Party Conferences

Greg Clark: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will place in the Library a copy of the minutes of each whether the National Endowment for Science, meeting held between officials in his Department and Technology and the Arts sought approval from his Lord Truscott since the latter ceased to be a Department to attend the party political conferences in Government Minister. [256917] 2009. [292946]

Mr. McFadden: During the passage of the Energy Mr. Lammy [holding answer 14 October 2009]: In Bill, officials from the Energy Bill Management Team accordance with Cabinet Office Guidance, the National in BERR met with a range of Peers and other interested Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts (NESTA) stakeholders to answer questions and clarify the policy sought and obtained permission from the Department in the Bill. This included one meeting on 22 July with for Business, Innovation and Skills, its sponsor department. Lord Truscott. There are no minutes but I have placed information concerning the meeting in the Library, Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Minister of State, including correspondence between Lord Truscott’s Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what researcher and officials from the Department seeking costs were incurred by the National Endowment for clarification on some of the discussion points at the Science, Technology and the Arts in attending the (a) meeting. Liberal Democrat, (b) Labour, (c) Conservative and (d) conference in 2009. Low Carbon Industrial Strategy [292947]

Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Lammy [holding answer 14 October 2009]: NESTA Department for Business, Innovation and Skills for incurred the following expenditure from attending party what reasons copies of the Low Carbon Industrial conferences in 2009: Strategy were not placed in the Vote Office after publication on 15 July 2009. [288596] £

Mr. McFadden: Around 30 copies of the Department’s Liberal Democrats 3,598 report “The UK Low Carbon Industrial Strategy” were Labour 13,436 placed in the Vote Office on the morning of its publication. Conservative 13,400 Unfortunately, demand for the report exceeded the number SNP 8,294 of copies available and there was a delay in obtaining additional copies for the Vote Office. I am sorry that Post Offices some hon. Members were inconvenienced by being unable to get a copy from the Vote Office. The report was placed in the Libraries of the House on the morning Mr. Charles Kennedy: To ask the Minister of State, of its publication, however, and it was also available on Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what the Department’s internet site, as indicated in the written recent discussions he has had with Post Office Ltd on ministerial statement. the future of the Network Change programme; and if he will make a statement. [293883] National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts: Finance Mr. McFadden: I am in regular contact with Post Office Ltd. on a range of issues relating to the network. Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister of State, The Network Change programme is now completed Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what with the exception of three branches which will be the (a) income and (b) expenditure of the National replaced by Outreach services during the autumn. 93.3 per Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts was cent. of the total UK population remain within one in each of the last three financial years. [293009] mile of their nearest post office outlet. 1433W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1434W

Post Office Ltd. is on course to achieve the expected Mr. Lammy: Figures on total enrolments in UK cost-savings as a result of the programme, as part of an higher education institutions (HEIs) for 2008/09 will overall plan to reduce its costs by £270 million per not be available until January 2010. The information in annum, by 2010-11. the table below relates to the latest available year, 2007/08. The level of customer business migrating from post Total enrolments in higher education courses at UK HEIs by offices which have closed under the programme to the domicile1, 2007/08 remaining branches in the network is above target at Domicile Number 88 per cent. UK 1,964,315 Republic of Ireland 15,260 Public Bodies: Finance Overseas excluding Ireland 326,530 Total 2,306,105 Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister of State, 1 ‘Domicile’ refers to a student’s home domicile prior to enrolling on Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what their course. the return profit from the National Endowment for Note: Science, Technology and the Arts’ portfolio of Figures are rounded to nearest five. investments was in each year since 1998. [292123] Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Mr. Lammy [holding answer 12 October 2009]: The National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts (NESTA) received the following returns from investing ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE its endowment: Carbon Reduction Commitment

£ million Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for 1998-99 8.37 Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has 1999-2000 11.80 made of the effectiveness of the projected emissions 2000-01 12.85 savings of 1.2 million tonnes of carbon per year by 2001-02 9.66 2020 under the Carbon Reduction Commitment in the 2002-03 9.39 achievement of the target to reduce greenhouse gas 2003-04 9.76 emissions by 32 per cent. on 1990 levels by 2020. [294070] 2004-05 13.40 2005-06 13.75 Joan Ruddock: Initial modelling indicated that at 2006-07 9.26 least 0.9MtC (3.2MtCO2e) pa. of cost-effective savings 2007-08 22.46 are available through the CRC alone, while synergies 2008-09 14.27 with other measures such as the Energy Performance Buildings Directive and decarbonisation of the electricity These figures are exclusive of bank interest received supply within this sector can contribute to additional and are lower than the figures quoted in NESTA’s savings up to 1.2MtC (4.4MtCO e). However the final annual reports and accounts for each year, which are 2 savings from the CRC will be determined by the emissions available in the House of Commons Library. cap. DECC and the Committee on Climate Change are undertaking further analysis to determine the appropriate Royal Mail: Industrial Disputes level of the cap, taking into account our carbon budget targets. Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister of State, We intend to announce the potential savings available Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he in 2011 and the actual cap in 2012. will make an assessment of the merits of the proposal by the Communication Workers Union that the dispute Carbon Reduction Commitment: Local Government with the Royal Mail be resolved with third party mediation; and if he will make a statement. [293540] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what the base year is for Mr. McFadden [holding answer 16 October 2009]: I carbon dioxide emissions for local authorities under have been in close contact with the unions and management the Carbon Reduction Commitment scheme. [293372] and have made it clear that strikes are not the way to resolve differences or safeguard the future of our postal Joan Ruddock: All participants’ position in the CRC service. Energy Efficiency Scheme league table will primarily be It is of course for the disputing parties to consider determined by their average annual emissions over the and agree to third party mediation. preceding five years of the scheme, or since the start of the scheme, whichever is the shorter period. Students: Nationality Climate Change

Mrs. Iris Robinson: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how and Climate Change on how many occasions Ministers many students on university courses were (a) UK from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland’s devolved nationals, (b) Republic of Ireland nationals and (c) administrations have been included in the UK foreign nationals other than from the Republic of delegation to UN framework convention on climate Ireland in the 2008-09 academic year. [293659] change conferences since 1999. [293424] 1435W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1436W

Joan Ruddock: Ministers from the Devolved In the longer term, the recently published UK Low Administrations have never been included on the UK Carbon Transition Plan sets out our ambitious plans delegation to the Conference of the Parties to the for increasing efficiency and reducing emissions to meet UNFCCC. our emissions targets under the framework of carbon The Scottish Executive has been represented by either budgets. We expect policies driving energy efficiency one or two officials on the UK delegation every year and the provision of low carbon energy, will reduce since 1999, but where Ministers from the Devolved emissions from homes by 29 per cent. and from workplaces Administrations have attended, this has always been on by 12 per cent. by 2022. other delegations. For example, in 2007 a Scottish Minister participated as a member of the Climate Group delegation. Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Committee on Climate Change and Climate Change what steps his Department is taking to reduce end-user energy consumption. [293869] Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change for what reasons the Joan Ruddock: The Heat and Energy Saving Strategy Committee on Climate Change’s first annual report to (HESS) consultation published in February and Parliament was not available in the Vote Office to hon. consolidated by the UK Low Carbon Transition Plan Members on its day of publication or the following published in July, set out the steps we are taking to day; and what steps he has taken to ensure that future reduce energy consumption and emissions in the UK. such reports are available to hon. Members on These include: publication. [293936] building on existing commitment to make all new homes and non-domestic buildings zero carbon by 2016 and 2019 respectively Joan Ruddock: The delay in making the Committee our aim for smart meters to be rolled-out to all domestic on Climate Change’s (CCC) first annual report available customers by the end of 2020 in the Vote Office was the result of the CCC not being fully aware of the requirements. The annual report was and new initiatives to incentivise low carbon energy generation; Feed in Tariffs for electricity and the Renewable Heat Incentive laid in both Houses on 12 October as required, but the available from 2010 and 2011 respectively CCC did not make copies available to both Houses through the Vote and Printed Paper Offices. When The Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) is alerted to the need to do this, the CCC did send copies the principal driver of energy efficiency improvements to both Houses on 14 October. in existing homes in Great Britain. We have recently increased the target suppliers must deliver by an additional The CCC regrets this oversight and has advised the 20 per cent. to save 185 million tonnes of CO2.In Department that they have put in place steps to avoid it addition we intend to extend this scheme for a further being repeated. 21 months from the current end in April 2011 out to the Electricity end of 2012 delivering more benefits. Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy We also recently launched the Community Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department is Saving Programme (CESP) trialling the delivery of energy taking to encourage the Distribution Network efficiency measures following a house-by-house, street- by-street approach, and focusing on low income Operators to meet climate change targets. [293870] communities. Joan Ruddock: Distribution Network Operators (DNOs) In the non-domestic sector, the Carbon Reduction will play an important role in a range of measures Commitment Energy Efficiency Scheme (CRCEES) is a DECC is taking to meet climate change targets. DECC new energy efficiency scheme that will be introduced in is working with Ofgem to review the regulatory framework April 2010. It aims to reduce energy consumption in the governing networks and ensure DNOs support our business and public sector workplaces through both targets, including through the current price control behaviour and infrastructure change. The CRC will review. DECC is also working with Ofgem to encourage build on the existing Climate Change Levy (CCL) and more innovation in the grid through the low carbon Climate Change Agreements (CCAs) which encourage network fund and through direct engagement with DNOs businesses to use energy more efficiently and reducing on smart grids. their emissions. Energy: Conservation Nuclear Generation Sites Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what targets his Department has for the reduction of end-user energy consumption. Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for [293868] Energy and Climate Change what analysis the Government has conducted of the effects of (a) sea Joan Ruddock: Across the whole economy reducing level rises and (b) storm surges on present and planned end-use energy consumption through increased efficiency civil nuclear generation sites over the next (i) 100, (ii) is a crucial part of our strategy to meet emissions 200 and (iii) 300 years; and if he will make a statement. reduction targets. [294036] In the short-term we have targets to increase the energy efficiency of housing by at least 20 per cent. Mr. Kidney [holding answer 19 October 2009]: Ensuring from a 2000 baseline and to cut annual residential the safety of existing nuclear power stations from sea carbon emissions by 3.5MtC (12.8MtCO2) by 2010 level rise and flood risk (including storm surge) is from a 1990 baseline. We are on track to meet both of carried out by the site operators, overseen by the Nuclear these targets. Installations Inspectorate (NII). 1437W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1438W

The nuclear licensing regime enforced by the NII and secure storage of all the spent fuel and intermediate requires existing site operators to ensure their sites are level waste produced from operation and decommissioning safe against sea level rise and storm surge throughout until it can be sent for final disposal in a geological the life of the nuclear power stations, including during disposal facility (GDF). The nominations are available decommissioning. As a condition of each nuclear site at: licence the operator must review the site safety case at www.nuclearpowersiting.gov.uk regular intervals (typically on a 10 year basis), taking The SSA will look at the capacity of nominated sites account of the most recent climate change projections to withstand flood risk and storm surge to 2100 using and to make any necessary modifications to flood defences climate change modelling data from UK Climate Projections and operating arrangements. 09 (UKCP09). For new nuclear power stations the Government is Predictions of potential climate change impacts become running a Strategic Siting Assessment (SSA) to identify less certain the further into the future the assessments sites that are potentially suitable for deployment by are for, and it is not practicable to consider for existing 2025. The government response to the consultation on or potential stations beyond 2100 at this stage. However, the SSA criteria and process the SSA assessment will also consider the adaptability of the proposed flood protection mechanism to changes http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file49865.pdf in the demand to give confidence that if the current outlined that nominated sites would be assessed against predictions are revised, modifications to the defences their capacity to be protected against flood risk, tsunami are practicable, and as set out above all licensed stations and storm surge throughout its lifetime, including the are subject to periodic review which takes the most potential effects of climate change, allowing for the safe recent climate change projections into account. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 20 October 2009

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 755 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Afghanistan ...... 764 continued Arab Peace Initiative...... 768 Refugee Camps (Chad) ...... 770 China ...... 763 Sri Lanka ...... 766 Freedom of Expression...... 760 Tibet ...... 758 Iran’s Nuclear Programme...... 755 Topical Questions ...... 770 NATO...... 759 Turkey and Armenia ...... 769 Palestine...... 761 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 20 October 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 49WS JUSTICE...... 53WS Letter of Credit Guarantee Scheme ...... 49WS Temporary Transfer of Prisoners Prior to Inspection ...... 53WS CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 51WS Office of Qualifications and Examinations Regulation ...... 51WS TREASURY ...... 49WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 52WS ECOFIN...... 49WS Business Rates...... 52WS Equitable Life ...... 50WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 20 October 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1421W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued Gangmasters: Telephone Services ...... 1421W Education: Finance...... 1408W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 1422W Pupils: Migration ...... 1409W Higher Education: Greater London ...... 1422W Social Workers: Young Offender Institutions ...... 1410W Higher Education: Radicalism ...... 1423W Vetting: Appeals...... 1410W Higher Education: Student Numbers...... 1424W Lord Truscott...... 1431W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 1389W Low Carbon Industrial Strategy ...... 1431W Council Housing: Finance ...... 1389W National Endowment for Science, Technology and Council Housing: Sutton ...... 1389W the Arts: Finance ...... 1431W Council Housing: Waiting Lists ...... 1389W National Endowment for Science, Technology and Council Tax ...... 1390W the Arts: Party Conferences ...... 1432W Council Tax: Valuation ...... 1390W Post Offices ...... 1432W Departmental Dismissal...... 1391W Public Bodies: Finance...... 1433W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 1391W Royal Mail: Industrial Disputes ...... 1433W Departmental Rail Travel...... 1391W Students: Nationality ...... 1433W Eco-towns ...... 1392W Fire Engines: Sales ...... 1392W CABINET OFFICE...... 1416W Home Information Packs...... 1392W Charities ...... 1416W Housing: Construction...... 1393W Charities: Government Assistance ...... 1417W Housing: Databases ...... 1393W Internet: Advertising...... 1419W Housing: Public Consultation ...... 1393W Lord Ashcroft ...... 1419W Housing: Regeneration...... 1394W Performing Arts ...... 1419W Housing: Valuation ...... 1394W Teenage Pregnancy...... 1420W LLM Communications ...... 1395W Telephone Services...... 1420W Lobbying...... 1395W Unemployment: Chelmsford ...... 1420W Local Authority Business Growth Incentives Scheme...... 1396W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 1404W Local Government ...... 1396W Children: Databases...... 1404W Local Government Finance ...... 1396W Children: Social Services...... 1404W Local Government: Publicity ...... 1396W Departmental Advertising...... 1405W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 1397W Departmental Consultants...... 1406W Muslim Council of Britain...... 1397W Departmental Internet ...... 1406W National Housing and Planning Advice Unit...... 1397W Departmental NDPBs...... 1407W National Housing and Planning Advice Unit: Pay. 1398W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1407W Non-Domestic Rates...... 1399W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— continued continued Non-Domestic Rates: Greater London ...... 1400W Bahrain ...... 1383W Planning Permission ...... 1400W Children: Kidnapping ...... 1383W Playing Fields: Planning Permission ...... 1401W Cyprus ...... 1384W Public Sector Relocation Independent Review ...... 1401W Cyprus: British Nationality...... 1386W Regional Development Agencies...... 1401W Cyprus: Politics and Government ...... 1387W Social Rented Housing: Standards...... 1401W Economic Recovery: EU ...... 1382W Starbucks: Planning Permission...... 1401W EU Budget ...... 1382W Tony Clements ...... 1402W European Parliament ...... 1381W Town and Country Planning Act 1990 ...... 1402W Gaza ...... 1381W Travelling People: Caravan Sites...... 1402W Iran’s Nuclear Programme...... 1380W Valuation Office: ICT...... 1403W Macedonia...... 1382W Non-proliferation Treaty...... 1381W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1324W Northern Cyprus ...... 1387W Circuses: Licensing...... 1324W Trade Unions: Iraq...... 1380W English Heritage: Fees and Charges ...... 1324W Turkey...... 1388W Football: World Cup ...... 1325W Turkey: Northern Cyprus...... 1388W Gambling: Licensing...... 1325W Turkey: Varnava...... 1388W Gambling Research, Education and Treatment United Arab Emirates ...... 1388W Foundation ...... 1325W West Bank...... 1381W Holiday Accommodation...... 1326W Zimbabwe ...... 1383W National Lottery...... 1326W Playing Fields: Planning Permission ...... 1328W HEALTH...... 1338W Sports: Facilities...... 1329W Blood: Contamination ...... 1338W Dental Services ...... 1338W DEFENCE...... 1359W Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill Afghanistan ...... 1359W 2007-08 ...... 1339W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 1360W Human-Animal Hybrid Embryos ...... 1339W Armed Forces: Cadets...... 1361W In Vitro Fertilisation ...... 1340W Armed Forces Compensation Scheme...... 1361W Low Birthweight Babies ...... 1340W Armed Forces: Drugs...... 1361W NHS Foundation Trusts: Governing Bodies...... 1341W Armed Forces: Foreigners ...... 1362W Radiotherapy ...... 1341W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 1363W Social Services: Leeds...... 1342W Armed Forces: Pay...... 1363W Social Services: Tamworth ...... 1342W Departmental Information Officers ...... 1364W Swine Flu: Aviation...... 1342W Departmental Pay ...... 1364W Departmental Training ...... 1364W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1348W European Fighter Aircraft ...... 1364W 62 South Eaton Place ...... 1348W General Richard Dannatt ...... 1364W Alcoholic Drinks: Crime...... 1349W Government Communications ...... 1365W Anti-Semitism...... 1349W Iraq and Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations.... 1365W Antisocial Behaviour: Crime Prevention ...... 1350W Mediterranean Region: Navy...... 1365W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 1349W Military Aircraft ...... 1365W Asylum ...... 1351W Military Attachés...... 1366W Closed Circuit Television ...... 1351W Parachute Regiment: Manpower...... 1366W Crime: Enfield...... 1351W Territorial Army ...... 1366W Crime: Leeds...... 1352W Departmental Advertising...... 1352W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1434W Departmental Procurement...... 1354W Carbon Reduction Commitment...... 1434W Departmental Travel ...... 1354W Carbon Reduction Commitment: Local Disadvantaged ...... 1356W Government...... 1434W Drug Seizures: London Airports...... 1356W Climate Change ...... 1434W Entry Clearances...... 1357W Committee on Climate Change ...... 1435W Entry Clearances: Appeals ...... 1357W Electricity...... 1435W Offenders: Mentally Ill...... 1357W Energy: Conservation...... 1435W Police ...... 1358W Nuclear Generation Sites ...... 1436W Police Stations...... 1358W Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000...... 1358W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Roads: Accidents ...... 1359W AFFAIRS...... 1331W Domestic Waste: Fees and Charges...... 1331W Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 1332W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 1329W Marine Aggregate Levy Sustainability Fund...... 1334W Parliament Square: Construction...... 1329W Pesticides: Licensing...... 1335W River Lymington: Ferries...... 1335W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1376W Waste and Resources Action Programme...... 1335W Cayman Islands: Hurricanes and Tornadoes...... 1376W Waste Management...... 1336W Consolidated Contractors Corporation ...... 1377W Weed Control: Avon...... 1336W Departmental Procurement...... 1377W Weedkillers...... 1337W Developing Countries ...... 1377W Developing Countries: Debt...... 1377W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1380W Global Environment Facility: Finance ...... 1378W Afghanistan ...... 1380W Overseas Aid: Internet ...... 1378W Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued TREASURY ...... 1410W Overseas Territories: Climate Change ...... 1378W Adjudicator’s Office...... 1410W Overseas Territories: Nature Conservation...... 1379W Consolidated Contractors Corporation ...... 1410W Pakistan: Internally Displaced Persons ...... 1379W Council of Economic Advisers: Departmental Vietnam: Overseas Aid...... 1380W Responsibilities ...... 1410W Departmental ICT ...... 1411W JUSTICE...... 1368W Economic Situation: Leeds ...... 1411W Criminal Justice System ...... 1368W Financial Services ...... 1411W Cybercrime ...... 1367W Government: Assets ...... 1412W Employment and Support Allowance: Appeals...... 1369W Inheritance Tax: Housing...... 1412W General Elections...... 1369W Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines: Homicide ...... 1370W Financial Services ...... 1412W Land: Registration ...... 1369W Low Birthweight Babies ...... 1415W Legal Aid ...... 1371W Research and Development Tax Credit ...... 1412W Legal Aid: Eligibility...... 1372W Taxation: Holiday Accommodation...... 1413W Magistrates Courts: Closures ...... 1372W Valuation Office ...... 1414W Offenders: Mental Health ...... 1373W Valuation Office: Data Protection...... 1414W Prisoners: Location...... 1373W Valuation Office: Land Registry...... 1414W Prisons: Parole Board for England and Wales...... 1374W Valuation Office: Training...... 1415W Prisons: Politics...... 1374W Welfare Tax Credits...... 1416W Robbery: Young Offenders...... 1375W WALES...... 1343W Sexual Offences: Sentencing...... 1375W Departmental Training ...... 1343W Sexual Offences: Young Offenders ...... 1376W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1343W Carer’s Allowance: Birmingham ...... 1343W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1323W Children: Maintenance ...... 1343W Criminal Damages Compensation 1997...... 1323W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 1344W Departmental Procurement...... 1323W Incapacity Benefit: Appeals ...... 1344W Northern Ireland Independent Monitoring Board . 1324W Incapacity Benefit: Employment Support Allowance ...... 1345W TRANSPORT ...... 1329W Industrial Diseases: Compensation ...... 1345W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 1329W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 1346W Cycling: Helmets...... 1330W Pensioners: Poverty ...... 1346W Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls ...... 1330W Pensions: Costs ...... 1347W Roads: Speed Limits ...... 1331W Work Capability Assessment...... 1347W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 27 October 2009

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index—Single copies: Commons, £6·80—published every three weeks Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS CUMULATIVE INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 497 Tuesday No. 127 20 October 2009

CONTENTS

Tuesday 20 October 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 755] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Transfer of Prisoners [Col. 777] Answer to urgent question—(Mr. Straw)

Royal Mail [Col. 784] Statement—(Mr. McFadden)

Marine Accident Investigation Branch (Reports) [Col. 796] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(David Cairns)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill [Col. 799] Read a Second time Carry-Over motion—(Mr. Blizzard)—on a Division, agreed to

Power Cuts (North-West Kent) [Col. 885] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Wardens (Sheltered Housing) [Col. 179WH] Prisoner Release Decisions [Col. 201WH] Mental Health Services (New Forest) [Col. 223WH] Free School Meals [Col. 230WH] Electoral Register [Col. 237WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 49WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1323W] [see index inside back page]