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Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill Committee

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Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill Committee H O U S E O F K E Y S O F F I C I A L R E P O R T R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Y C H I A R E A S F E E D P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N LANDLORD AND TENANT (PRIVATE HOUSING) BILL COMMITTEE HANSARD Douglas, Monday, 8th September 2014 PP2014/0116 LTPHB, No. 3 All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year: Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2014 BILL COMMITTEE, MONDAY, 8th SEPTEMBER 2014 Members Present: Chairman: Mr C C Thomas MHK Mr D C Cretney MHK Mr L I Singer MHK Clerk: Mr R I S Phillips Contents Procedural ...................................................................................................................................... 55 EVIDENCE OF Mr D Ashford, Chairman of the Housing and Property Advisory Committee, Ms K Rice, Chief Executive, and Mr I Clague, Borough Engineer and Surveyor, Douglas Borough Council ............................................................................................................... 55 The Court adjourned at 3.15 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 3.26 p.m. when Mr Harmer and Mr Whiteway were called .......................................................................... 68 Procedural ...................................................................................................................................... 68 EVIDENCE OF Mr T Harmer, Commissioner and Mr P Whiteway, Clerk, Ramsey Town Commissioners ....................................................................................................... 69 The Committee adjourned at 4.06 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 4.14 p.m. ............................... 79 Procedural ...................................................................................................................................... 80 The Committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m. ......................................................................................... 80 __________________________________________________________________ 54 LTPHB BILL COMMITTEE, MONDAY, 8th SEPTEMBER 2014 The Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill Committee The Committee sat in public at 2.30 p.m. in the Legislative Council Chamber, Legislative Buildings, Douglas [MR THOMAS in the Chair] Procedural The Chairman (Mr Thomas): Welcome. This is a further oral evidence session of the House of Keys Committee on the Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill. Today the Bill Committee is taking evidence from Councillor David Ashford, Chairman of the Housing and Property Advisory 5 Committee, Ms Kathy Rice, the Council's Chief Executive, and Mr Ian Clague, the Council’s Borough Engineer and Surveyor. I am Chris Thomas, Chairman of this Legislative Committee and my fellow members of the Committee are Leonard Singer MHK and David Cretney MHK. Thank you very much indeed for coming along today and indeed for submitting your written evidence previously. A procedural piece of information, which is that please could all of us, and 10 anybody in the Public Gallery make sure that mobile phones are completely switched off and also to help us get the best possible recording of the proceedings, it will be helpful if we could try and make sure that we speak sequentially rather than in parallel. EVIDENCE OF Mr D Ashford, Chairman of the Housing and Property Advisory Committee, Ms K Rice, Chief Executive, and Mr I Clague, Borough Engineer and Surveyor, Douglas Borough Council Q152. The Chairman: Can I invite, first of all, you to say how you are going to present to us? Should we be asking questions of all of you as one or each of you separately? 15 Mr Ashford: If you could direct the questions to me, Mr Chairman, and then if necessary I will refer to the officers of the Council. Q153. The Chairman: Thank you very much, Councillor Ashford. 20 The first question is then to invite you to make any opening statement that you would like to make including summarising the written evidence, if you possibly can, that you have submitted to us, because although that is now published it might be helpful for you to summarise the main points? 25 Mr Ashford: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. We certainly would like to make an opening statement. Can I start by thanking you, Mr Chairman, and the members of your Committee for inviting the Council to attend today. __________________________________________________________________ 55 LTPHB BILL COMMITTEE, MONDAY, 8th SEPTEMBER 2014 Can I firstly remind the Committee that the Council originally responded to the initial 30 consultation to the Bill in 2013. At that point the Council took the view, and still has the view, that the introduction of the Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill 2013 be supported, with the comment that registration and enforcement of registration should be a local authority responsibility. The Council's decision was based on the perception that in the current climate, where the 35 Government needs to and is devolving services, this service is one that could rightly be assumed by local authorities in the same way as legislation pertaining to unsightly buildings and flat registration. To this end, the Council supported the consultation document, Housing Standards Regulations 2013, Housing Registration Regulations 2013, Housing (Definition of a House or Flat in Multiple Occupation) Order 2013, all promoted by DEFA. 40 As I understand it, we are here today to speak and to answer questions on the proposal to extend the Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill to cover public sector housing. The Committee has had a copy of the Council's formal written response, which details the reasoning behind the Council's view, that the simple extension of the Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill 2013 to cover public sector housing would be inappropriate as the Bill is entirely 45 the wrong vehicle for the subject matter. Mr Chairman, we feel that there is already sufficient legislation covering the provision and regulation of social housing. The primary Housing Act 1955 is supported by a number of subsequent instruments that provide standards and scrutiny for the provision of social housing. That is not to say there is not a need to review this, and this has been recently highlighted by 50 the consultation into the provision of social housing by Tolson. The outcome of this clearly, in my opinion, points us towards a reformation of all the existing social housing legislation by the provision of a new Act to reflect the requirements of 21st century. Having said that, the Council is not saying that there should be dual standards of accommodation between public and private sectors; in fact we are saying quite the contrary. It 55 should be incumbent that the Isle of Man Government has appropriate instruments in place to ensure that all citizens have the opportunity to reside in decent homes. It is just that we feel the Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill 2013, which is designed to regulate the private sector by introducing standards of accommodation, registration of landlords and registration of dwellings is not the vehicle for social housing. Extending the 60 Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill 2013 to the public sector confuses the original purpose of the Bill. Mr Chairman, I hope this summarises the Council's position and I am, and my officers, obviously willing to answer any questions that the Committee may have. 65 Q154. The Chairman: Thank you very much, Councillor Ashford. Just for clarity and clarification, I think I heard you say then that you were expecting questions solely about extension to the public sector. Does that mean that you will not be prepared to answer questions about other matters, not that, or will you still address it? 70 Mr Ashford: No, we will answer any questions posed by the Committee, Mr Chairman. Q155.The Chairman: Thank you very much. It is a very helpful opening statement and one point I wanted to pick up on straight away was the experience that you had with flat registration and dilapidated properties that you 75 mentioned. Is there anything from that experience that you wanted to share with us as we consider this Landlord and Tenant Bill? Some of the issues that would seem to be being addressed, like not being able to find who actually owns or is responsible for the standard of a property is something presumably you have quite a lot of experience of with your work in dilapidated properties and flat registration. 80 __________________________________________________________________ 56 LTPHB BILL COMMITTEE, MONDAY, 8th SEPTEMBER 2014 Mr Ashford: In relation to dilapidated properties, Mr Chairman… I will refer to the Borough Engineer when it comes to flat registration, if I may, but in relation to dilapidated properties, obviously in a former life I was Chairman of the Public Works Committee before I became the Chairman of Housing and my experience with dilapidated properties is that a lot of them tend to 85 be houses that have not been out for lets. I am not sure how the Landlord and Tenant Bill would actually assist with that because they are houses that had been in private ownership. We have had one recently where it is the case of the lady has died and it has been left to someone in her will, a member of the family who is actually in another country. I do not see quite how the overlap of the Landlord and Tenant Bill would actually assist with that, unless the 90 dilapidated property in that instance was actually something that was being rented out. So if I could refer to the Borough Engineer in relation to the flat registration. Mr Clague: Thank you, Councillor, and thank you, Chairman. On flat registration, all I can really inform the Committee, as far as experience we have in the 95 Council, is that the current legislation appears to be adequate and that the enforcement is carried out on behalf of the Council by Members of the Environmental Health Unit of DEFA.
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