LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11951
OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 22 May 2013
The Council met at Two o'clock
MEMBERS PRESENT:
THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
DR THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT FANG KANG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-HING, M.H. 11952 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
DR THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONNY TONG KA-WAH, S.C.
THE HONOURABLE CYD HO SAU-LAN
THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM TAI-FAI, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, B.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KA-LAU
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-CHE
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, B.B.S.
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALAN LEONG KAH-KIT, S.C.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11953
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KWOK-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP
THE HONOURABLE WONG YUK-MAN
THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN
THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING
THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H.
THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING
THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI
THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN
DR THE HONOURABLE KENNETH CHAN KA-LOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN, S.B.S., J.P.
11954 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI
THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG
THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG
DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN
THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN
DR THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.
THE HONOURABLE TANG KA-PIU
DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, J.P.
IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHUNG SHU-KUN, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11955
MEMBERS ABSENT:
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN
PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:
THE HONOURABLE MRS CARRIE LAM CHENG YUET-NGOR, G.B.S., J.P. THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION
PROF THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING
THE HONOURABLE TSANG TAK-SING, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
THE HONOURABLE MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE
PROF THE HONOURABLE K C CHAN, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY
THE HONOURABLE GREGORY SO KAM-LEUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND TAM CHI-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS
DR THE HONOURABLE KO WING-MAN, B.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH
11956 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHAN MO-PO, M.H., J.P. SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT
MR LAU KONG-WAH, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS
CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:
MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS FLORA TAI YIN-PING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS ODELIA LEUNG HING-YEE, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members entered the Chamber)
TABLING OF PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table under Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:
Subsidiary Legislation/Instrument L.N. No.
Tate's Cairn Tunnel Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule) 70/2013 Notice 2013 ......
Other Papers
No. 94 ─ The Government Minute in response to the Report of the Public Accounts Committee No. 59 of February 2013
No. 95 ─ Securities and Futures Commission Approved budget of income and expenditure for the financial year 2013/2014
Report No. 17/12-13 of the House Committee on Consideration of Subsidiary Legislation and Other Instruments
ADDRESSES
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Address. The Chief Secretary for Administration will address the Council on "The Government Minute in response to the Report No. 59 of the Public Accounts Committee".
11958 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
The Government Minute in response to the Report of the Public Accounts Committee No. 59 of February 2013
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): President, laid on the table today is the Government Minute responding to Report No. 59 of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC).
When presenting Report No. 59 on 6 February to the Legislative Council, the Chairman of PAC gave comments on four chapters in the Director of Audit's Reports: (a) Monitoring and reporting of air quality; (b) Implementation of air-quality improvement measures; (c) Regulatory control of private hospitals; and (d) Land grants for private hospital development.
First of all, I am grateful for the time and efforts that the PAC has devoted to investigating these subjects. We accept the Committee's various recommendations and have set out in detail the specific responses of the relevant bureaux/departments in the Government Minute. Today, I would like to highlight the key measures that we have taken in these important policy areas and the progress.
On monitoring and reporting of air quality and Implementation of air-quality improvement measures, the current-term Government is committed to improving air quality. The Chief Executive, in his first address to the Legislative Council on 17 October 2012, made it clear that public health is our primary concern when we formulate our clean air policy. Environmental protection carried significant weight in the Chief Executive's first Policy Address delivered on 16 January, 2013. The policies on air quality improvement have been broadly welcomed by the community.
The Environment Bureau released "A Clean Air Plan for Hong Kong" on 28 March 2013 to outline comprehensively and clearly the challenges Hong Kong is facing with regard to air quality. It also gives an overview of the relevant policies, measures and plans to tackle air pollution covering land and sea transport, power plants and non-road mobile machinery, as well as collaboration between Guangdong and Hong Kong to deal with regional pollution. Collaboration among various government bureaux and departments and the concerted efforts of different sectors will all contribute to attaining the goal of cleaner air and a healthier living environment for the public.
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The priorities of air-quality management initiatives are to improve roadside air quality, reduce emissions from marine vessels, and tackle the regional pollution problem in collaboration with the Guangdong authorities. The Government's efforts in these three fronts are briefly set out below.
To expedite the phasing out of heavily polluting diesel commercial vehicles, the Government has proposed to set aside $10 billion to subsidize owners of pre-Euro IV diesel commercial vehicles to replace the vehicles and to ban their use on road by phases. This will reduce the particulates and nitrogen oxides emissions by 80% and 30% respectively, and will go a long way in protecting public health. The Government also proposes to set a maximum service life of 15 years for newly registered diesel commercial vehicles. Consultation with the transport trades and other stakeholders is currently underway.
A major cause of the roadside air pollution problem is the high nitrogen dioxide concentration which increased by 22% between 2006 and 2010. To strengthen emission control on poorly maintained petrol and liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) vehicles that emit nitrogen dioxide, from 2014, we will use roadside remote sensing equipment to detect those vehicles with excessive emissions, and will require them to be repaired. Before the deployment of remote sensing equipment, we will provide a one-off grant to help petrol and LPG taxis and light buses owners to replace once the worn-out catalytic converters of their vehicles. The replacement is expected to commence in the second half of 2013.
With regard to bus route rationalization, in addition to the annual Route Development Programmes, a new "area approach" is being adopted, under which bus route rationalization will be carried out on an area/district basis, instead of on the basis of individual routes. Emphasis is placed on the overall transport and environmental benefits that rationalization proposals will bring to an area/district. Working in tandem, better arrangements for bus-bus interchanges will also be put in place to expand interchange network and enhance interchange facilities. More attractive interchange fare concessions will also be made available. The Administration will also pursue vigorously rationalization plans of franchised buses and other road-based public transport modes as and when new railway lines are commissioned. It should be noted that the above air improvement initiatives represent not only the efforts of the Environment Bureau and the Environmental 11960 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Protection Department, but also the full support from the relevant bureaux/departments.
Marine vessels have become the largest source of local air pollutant. To further control air pollution from the marine sector, the 2013 Policy Address announced several new initiatives, including the plan to introduce new legislation to enforce the requirement of fuel switch at berth following the completion of consultation with the relevant stakeholders; promote the use of cleaner fuels among local vessels; and seek funding approval from the Legislative Council to install on-shore power supply facilities for use by cruise vessels at the Kai Tak Cruise Terminal. The Administration will continue to take forward these initiatives and report the progress to the Legislative Council Panel on Environmental Affairs at appropriate juncture.
The Administration is also making efforts to expedite the legislative amendment exercises to reflect the International Maritime Organisation 2010 Standards relating to emissions from vessels; and to adopt in law the Ringelmann Chart as an objective benchmark for measuring dark smoke emission from vessels. Our target is to consult the Legislative Council Panel on Economic Development on the legislative proposals by June 2013.
President, in November 2012, the Hong Kong SAR and Guangdong Provincial Governments jointly announced a new set of regional emission reduction targets/ranges for 2015 and 2020 respectively. Both sides will implement additional reduction measures for the attainment of the emission reduction targets, which will bring continuous improvement to the regional air quality. We are also exploring with the Guangdong Government to jointly introduce fuel switch at berth in Pearl River Delta (PRD) ports for maximizing the environmental benefits in the PRD.
With regard to the updating of Air Quality Objectives (AQOs), we introduced the Air Pollution Control (Amendment) Bill into the Legislative Council on 20 March 2013. The Amendment Bill is being scrutinized by the Bills Committee. Subject to the passage of the relevant legislation, we expect the new AQOs to take effect in January 2014. To tie in with the implementation of the new AQOs, we will replace the Air Pollution Index system with a new health risk-based Air Quality Health Index system. The new reporting system LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11961 makes reference to relationship between local air pollution and hospital admissions, and thus provides a more useful reference from a health perspective for the public.
On regulatory control of and land grant for private hospitals, the Government agrees with the Audit Commission's and the PAC's comments. The Government will strengthen regulatory control of private hospitals' operation and ensure that private hospitals granted government sites by private treaties comply with the land grant conditions.
The Government established a "Steering Committee on Review of the Regulation of Private Healthcare Facilities" (Steering Committee) chaired by the Secretary for Food and Health last October. The Steering Committee will conduct an overall review of the regulatory regimes for private hospitals among other private healthcare facilities, including enhancing the safety and quality of private healthcare services and better protecting consumer rights through greater price transparency. The review will make reference to the recommendations of the Audit Commission and the PAC, in order to bring the regulatory regimes up to date and provide better private healthcare service to the community. The Steering Committee is expected to submit recommendations within this year. The Government will conduct public consultation subsequently and commence the necessary legislative process.
In the meantime, the Department of Health (DH) has tightened up the monitoring and regulation of private hospitals. The DH has been working with the Lands Department (LandsD) and other relevant bureaux/departments closely to make sure that land grant conditions are properly complied with by private hospitals.
In respect of the administration of private hospitals' daily operation, the DH has, in response to the audit recommendation, deployed a checklist to document inspections to private hospitals. Should any irregularities be found in inspections, the DH would take appropriate regulatory action. The DH will also carry out more in-depth analysis of public complaints lodged against private hospital services. If any serious non-compliance is identified during the analysis, regulatory action such as issue of advisory/warning letters would be taken. Furthermore, the DH will issue regulatory letter to any private hospitals which 11962 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 fail to report sentinel events to the DH within 24 hours upon occurrence. The DH will also continue to refer sentinel events suspected of contravening statutory provisions or of professional misconduct with significant public health impact to the relevant regulatory authorities for healthcare professionals for follow up. The Steering Committee will look into the suggestion of disclosing the identities of private hospitals where sentinel events are reported and the details of the sentinel events.
Besides, the Steering Committee will deliberate on and look for ways to improve price transparency of private hospitals. Meanwhile, the Government is encouraging private hospitals to put forth packaged pricing and quotation as far as practicable, in order to give consumers greater confidence in using private hospitals services.
With regard to the monitoring of compliance with land grant conditions by private hospitals, I wish to emphasize that land is a scarce and precious resource in Hong Kong. It is the Administration's objective to utilize our scarce land resource effectively with a view to fulfilling the development needs of Hong Kong in the social and economic aspects and benefiting the wider public.
The LandsD will continue to support the Food and Health Bureau and the DH in implementing the Government intention through land grants and other land transactions concerning private hospitals, as appropriate. The LandsD and the Planning Department will also provide necessary assistance and support to the Food and Health Bureau and the DH in the course of planning for the disposal of land for private hospital development and considering applications for private treaty grants (PTGs) or other land transactions for private hospitals. In light of the PAC's recommendation, the LandsD is developing a general protocol on matters related to the administration of PTGs for private hospital development at nominal or concessionary premiums, including division of responsibilities of bureaux/departments concerned.
Regarding the monitoring and enforcement of land grant conditions, the LandsD will step up its work and support the DH's active monitoring of compliance with those lease requirements under the land lease related to hospital service. Lease enforcement actions will be taken as appropriate to ensure lease compliance and rectification of breaches of lease conditions.
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On the DH's front, it will examine whether private hospitals have observed the relevant land grant conditions when conducting inspections to private hospitals. For those private hospitals bound by financially-related conditions under their land grants, the DH has requested the submission of auditor's certification and financial information for examination. Suspected case of non-compliance will be referred to the LandsD for follow up. Private hospitals are also required to apply to the LandsD for any business arrangement relating to land grant conditions in accordance with the requirements of land grants. Furthermore, the DH has been in discussion with the private hospitals concerned on the arrangement for providing free or low-charge beds, as well as means to increase the utilization of existing low-charge beds. One of the hospitals concerned has provided 20 free beds to benefit a greater number of patients.
The Government will in due course incorporate conditions into the land grants of future private hospitals to effect the latest Government intention. When granting sites for private hospital development in the future, the Government will take into account the demand and supply and service requirements of the private healthcare sector in order to determine the suitable size of private hospital sites, the scale of development as well as hospital-related lease requirements.
For the new private hospital to be developed on the Wong Chuk Hang site, the Government has required the tenderer to incorporate a set of special requirements into the land lease and the service deed. Apart from offering packaged charge, the new private hospital will not be allowed to change the land use.
President, the Government is grateful to the PAC for its constructive comments and recommendations. The Government will respond positively and implement necessary improvements as appropriate. The Government will continue to safeguard public health and interest by assuring that private hospitals provide quality healthcare services to the community and those granted with government sites by private treaties comply with the relevant land grant conditions.
Thank you, President.
11964 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions. First question.
Measures to Expedite Turnover of Public Rental Housing Flats
1. MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): The Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA) pointed out in its Report on the Review of Home Ownership Scheme published in 1996 that one of the objectives of implementing the Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) was "to encourage better off public rental housing tenants to upgrade to home ownership so that public rental flats released by them could be allocated to other families in need of assisted housing". With regard to expediting the turnover of public rental housing (PRH) flats, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of PRH flats surrendered by PRH tenants in each of the past five years, broken down by the reason for surrendering the flats; among these cases, of the respective numbers of PRH tenants who purchased homes under HOS and the HOS Secondary Market Scheme;
(b) whether it is one of the policy objectives of the Government of the current term "to encourage PRH tenants to upgrade to home ownership and surrender their PRH flats"; if so, of the various specific indicators set by the Government for this objective, and how such indicators compare with those in the past; if not, the reasons for that; and
(c) of the specific measures implemented by the Government in the past five years for encouraging PRH tenants to surrender their PRH flats; whether it has conducted any comprehensive review of the effectiveness of these measures; if it has, of the review results; whether it will introduce new measures in 2013-2014 to further encourage PRH tenants to surrender their PRH flats in order to expedite the turnover of PRH flats; if it will, of the specific details and implementation schedule of the various new measures; if not, the reasons for that?
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SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, the Government's housing policy is to provide public rental housing (PRH) for low-income families who cannot afford private rental accommodation. To ensure the rational allocation of limited public housing resources, the Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA) always encourages PRH households who have benefited from a steady improvement in their income and assets to return their PRH flats to the HA for reallocation to families that are more in need of the PRH flats. In 1987 and 1996, the HA implemented respectively the Housing Subsidy Policy and the Policy on Safeguarding Rational Allocation of Public Housing Resources (collectively referred to as the "Well-off Tenants Policies"). The objective is to reduce the level of subsidy given to "comparatively well off" tenants, using the two factors of "income" and "assets" to determine the appropriate subsidized level for PRH. Under the "Well-off Tenants Policies", households that have lived in PRH for 10 years or more are required to declare their household income biennially. Depending on the income levels, those with a household income exceeding the prescribed income limits are required to pay 1.5 times or double net rent plus rates. Households who are paying double rent are also required to declare their assets biennially. If their household assets exceed Waiting List (WL) income limits by 84 times, they are required to move out from their PRH flats. Details are at Annex 1.
My reply to the questions raised by Mr Tony TSE is as follows:
(a) The breakdown of number of PRH flats recovered by the HA and the net amount in each of the past five years is detailed at Annex 2.
There are various reasons for the HA to recover PRH flats. They include voluntary surrender of flats by tenants due to different reasons (for example, renting or purchasing flats in the private market; death of single tenants; elderly tenants admitted to elderly homes, and so on); PRH flats recovered by the Housing Department (HD) as a result of tenancy control actions; and surrender of PRH flats by tenants upon the purchase of the HOS flats under Green Form (GF) Status, and so on.
After deducting those reserved for the PRH tenants requiring transfer, there would be a net gain of about 7 000 recovered flats 11966 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
each year that could be reallocated to WL applicants and other PRH applicants (such as those to be housed through Compassionate Rehousing).
The number of PRH households moving out from PRH flats owing to the purchase of HOS flats from the HA or from the HOS Secondary Market with premium not yet paid in the past five years is at Items (iii) and (iv) of Annex 2.
(b) Our policy objective is to let the public choose accommodation according to their affordability and ability, including home ownership. We will provide subsidized home ownership flats on top of public housing so as to build a progressive housing ladder. We encourage PRH tenants who can afford to do so to purchase HOS flats from the HA or from the HOS Secondary Market with premium not yet paid under the GF Status. As such, in the past seven phases of the sales of Surplus HOS flats, the HA has reserved at least 60% of the flats for purchase by GF applicants, although the final take up ratio by GF applicants sometimes falls short of the reserve. PRH tenants are required to surrender their flats to the HA after purchase of HOS flats. This will facilitate the release of more PRH flats for reallocation. Nonetheless, we do not set any "hard targets" on the number of HOS flats to be purchased by PRH tenants.
(c) As mentioned above, to facilitate the turnover of PRH flats, the HA has implemented the "Well-off Tenants Policies" and allows PRH tenants to purchase HOS flats under the GF status, who then surrender their PRH flats to the HA upon such purchase. At the same time, the HD has taken a multi-pronged approach to proactively combat tenancy abuse. For substantiated tenancy abuse cases, the HA will issue a Notice-to-quit and recover the PRH flats for reallocation. Relevant measures include:
(i) front-line staff will conduct at least one flat visit to all the PRH households in the territory biennially. Any suspected abuse cases detected will be referred to the Central Team for follow-up action;
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(ii) the Central Team will carry out rigorous investigation into all suspected abuse cases, and will conduct online patrols on the Internet to detect abuse cases involving sub-letting of PRH flats, and so on; and
(iii) a series of publicity and education programmes have been organized to encourage the reporting of suspected abuse cases.
In this year, the HD will deploy extra staff to the Central Team to step up action to tackle tenancy abuse and to conduct additional checks on income/assets declarations and occupancy-related cases. Estate staff will also step up patrols in some older PRH estates which are more prone to tenancy abuse.
In addition, the Long Term Housing Strategy review currently in progress will also assess the effectiveness of the "Well-off Tenants Policies".
Annex 1
Income and Asset Limits under Well-off Tenants Policies
Households Households with Income Households with with Net Assets Income Limit exceeding Income ranging from Value for WL for Three Times Two to Three Times exceeding Household PRH WL Income WL Income Limit per 84 Times WL Size Maximum Limit per month are required to Income Limit Income Limit month are pay 1.5 Times Rent are required to Per Month required to pay plus rates move out from Double Rent flats plus rates 1 person $8,880 $17,761 - $26,640 $26,640 $750,000 2 persons $13,750 $27,501 - $41,250 $41,250 $1,160,000 3 persons $18,310 $36,621 - $54,930 $54,930 $1,540,000 4 persons $22,140 $44,281 - $66,420 $66,420 $1,860,000 5 persons $25,360 $50,721 - $76,080 $76,080 $2,140,000 11968 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Households Households with Income Households with with Net Assets Income Limit exceeding Income ranging from Value for WL for Three Times Two to Three Times exceeding Household PRH WL Income WL Income Limit per 84 Times WL Size Maximum Limit per month are required to Income Limit Income Limit month are pay 1.5 Times Rent are required to Per Month required to pay plus rates move out from Double Rent flats plus rates 6 persons $28,400 $56,801 - $85,200 $85,200 $2,390,000 7 persons $31,630 $63,261 - $94,890 $94,890 $2,660,000 8 persons $33,810 $67,621 - $101,430 $101,430 $2,850,000 9 persons $37,850 $75,701 - $113,550 $113,550 $3,180,000 10 persons $39,740 $79,481 - $119,220 $119,220 $3,340,000 or above
Annex 2
Breakdown of the Reasons of Flat Recovery by the HA
2012-2013 （As at Year/Reason 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 end December 2012） (i) Voluntary surrender by 5 400 4 850 5 145 4 560 3 645 tenants (ii) Issuance of 1 683 1 518 1 359 1 403 889 notice-to-quit (iii) Purchase of HOSs flats sold by the 1 984 482 1 933 7 0 HA (iv) Purchase of HOSs flats on the 1 176 1 228 1 500 1 181 908 Secondary Market LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11969
2012-2013 （As at Year/Reason 2008-2009 2009-2010 2010-2011 2011-2012 end December 2012） (v) Transfer and 8 367 6 918 6 535 7 331 4 869 others* Total 18 610 14 996 16 472 14 482 10 311 Reserved for transfer 8 367 6 918 6 535 7 331 4 869 and others* Net recovery 10 243 8 078 9 937 7 151 5 442
Note:
* Others include recovery of occupied PRH flats from sitting tenants who are allocated with alternative PRH flats through applications with family members (who are not PRH tenants) under the WL, and so on.
MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): May I ask whether the Government found the situation of better-off PRH tenants moving out of PRH flats on purchase of HOS flats satisfactory in the past few years? Will the Government provide more incentives to PRH tenants who are financially better off to achieve home ownership on the housing ladder?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as I mentioned in the main reply, the Government encourages tenants who can afford to do so purchase HOS flats, including flats from the HOS Secondary Market, according to their ability. Of course, it should be the tenants who ultimately decide whether they can afford it.
In addition, in respect of the HOS Secondary Market, the policy in the past was to allow GF buyers who are mostly PRH tenants to purchase HOS flats with premium not yet paid in the HOS Secondary Market. Recently, although we have increased the opportunity of White Form (WF) buyers to buy these flats, general speaking, PRH residents still enjoy better chances. In the meantime, GF buyers were given better chances by increasing their proportion when new HOS flats, including surplus HOS flats, were put on sale in the past.
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MR CHAN KIN-POR (in Cantonese): In the main reply, the Government mentioned that the Central Team would carry out rigorous investigation into tenancy abuse cases. May I ask what indicators or criteria are adopted by the authorities to gauge their effectiveness? In addition, if the Central Team can grasp substantive intelligence, it will be more confident of exposing such abuse cases. May I ask whether the Government will consider offering rewards to encourage the reporting of suspected tenancy abuse cases?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, certainly the HD encourages the reporting of tenancy abuse cases through various promotional methods. We believe a very good response has been induced by the existing approach. In our society, people are keen to report information to the relevant authorities. So, I believe the current approach is very effective.
We do not set any "hard targets" on the number of HOS flats to be purchased by PRH tenants because under the government policy, if there is no abuse of subsidized housing by the sitting tenants, they should not be required to move out. Therefore, what we ultimately have to deal with is abuse cases. Currently, the staff in the Central Team, coupled with the newly assigned personnel, has a total staff of 100 persons responsible for the relevant duties. In addition, staff in different estates will refer suspected tenancy abuse cases to the Central Team to facilitate focused patrols once such cases have come to their attention.
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): President, in the main reply, the Secretary said that some older PRH estates are more prone to tenancy abuse. I hope the Secretary can provide additional information on older PRH estates which are more prone to tenancy abuse and the respective figures. My supplementary question is related to well-off tenants. The Secretary said that patrols are conducted. May I ask the Secretary whether surprise checks are conducted during such patrols? Secondly, if well-off tenants have deliberately left their flats unoccupied, what will the Secretary do to deal with the problem?
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SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, regarding information on older PRH estates which are more prone to tenancy abuse, it will be provided after the meeting. (Appendix I)
Now, among the flats recovered from PRH residents through surprise checks or random checks in response to suspected tenancy abuse, the proportion of non-occupation cases is indeed higher. Over the past few years, out of the average of 400-odd PRH flats recovered annually on the ground of tenancy abuse, around 350 flats on average fall into non-occupation cases. It is obviously a kind of tenancy abuse. I believe it has been discussed extensively in the community because some people do not want to give up the flats. This has further demonstrated the need to combat tenancy abuse.
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my question.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEE, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): How will these unoccupied flats be dealt with?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, from the HD's enforcement perspective, a Notice-to-quit will be issued to tenants of unoccupied flats. Certainly, there is a mechanism for the tenants concerned to lodge an appeal. However, the tenants are required to move out upon enforcement of the Notice-to-quit.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK (in Cantonese): President, the HOS policy in 1996 aimed at allowing GF applicants to buy HOS flats, thereby releasing their PRH 11972 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 flats for reallocation to WL applicants. However, under the latest policy, 5 000 flats will be offered for WF applicants. Will the PRH residents who are waiting to buy HOS flats be denied the opportunity? As those flats are for WF applicants and GF applicants are turned away, this has affected the WL applicants' chances of being allocated PRH flats. Does the Government think that it is more important to help people buy flats than taking care of the needs of WL applicants?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, perhaps Mr SHEK has some misunderstanding. I believe he is talking about HOS flats with premium not yet paid in the Secondary Market, right? In fact, all households living in PRH flats can purchase HOS flats with premium not yet paid in the Secondary Market under GF Status. As it will take several years to build new HOS flats, the Government has launched a transitional plan this year to allow 5 000 eligible WF buyers to purchase HOS flats without paying premium in the Secondary Market. However, as there are a total of more than 300 000 HOS flats with premium not yet paid or Tenants Purchase Scheme flats in the Secondary Market, opportunity abounds. We are not worried that GF buyers living in PRH flats will lose home ownership opportunities after thousands of eligible WF buyers are allowed to purchase HOS flats in the Secondary Market.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK (in Cantonese): Thank you. President, I thank the Secretary for his explanation.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Abraham SHEK, you cannot follow up your question. If you wish to ask another supplementary question, please wait for another turn.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK (in Cantonese): President, I have no more questions. But he said that I have some misunderstanding, I in fact understand it very well. So, his problem is that the 5 000 flats should be offered to GF buyers who will move out of PRH flats upon purchase of HOS flats.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Abraham SHEK, this is not a debate session. Please do not express your views after the Secretary has answered your question unless you think the Secretary has not answered it.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): President, in the paper submitted to the Legislative Council earlier on, the Transport and Housing Bureau said that the Long Term Housing Strategy Steering Committee (the Committee) had also indicated that the period for the initial income declaration and subsequent declarations to be made biennially should be reviewed or shortened. However, the Secretary and the Permanent Secretary have told the Legislative Council that the Well-off Tenants Policies work well. It seems they do not agree with the views of the Committee. May I ask on what basis you do not agree with the abovementioned views of the Committee? It is generally considered that notwithstanding the prescribed regulations, the authorities may shorten the period for income/assets declarations because 10 years are a very long period. What does the Secretary think?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as I mentioned in the main reply, the authorities will in the course of the Long Term Housing Strategy review assess the effectiveness of the "Well-Off Tenants Policies". We think the Policies work well, meaning that we do consider it necessary to make any assessment of the Policies because we want to issue a very clear message to the public that we do not encourage the abuse of PRH resources. In the meantime, we also encourage well-off residents to move out in order to release their flats for reallocation to WL applicants who have a greater need for them.
Nevertheless, regarding the operation of the Policies, that is, households that have lived in PRH for 10 years or more are required to go through a means test which will be conducted biennially, the Committee actually considers that the requirement may be tightened, the period for asset declaration may be shortened and the number of patrols may be increased. The Committee is still discussing the matter and relevant proposals will be mentioned in the consultation paper to be issued in future.
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MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): When will the review be completed?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TIEN, has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): May I ask the Secretary when this review will be completed?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, according to our original plan, the review will be completed in around the middle of the year. Certainly, there are lots of issues to be discussed. But I hope that the date on which consultation is ready to launch will not deviate too much from the target date.
MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, I would like to ask a follow-up question. I do not mean to target any Honourable colleagues here. However, there are some real examples in which the incomes of the parties concerned have exceeded the maximum income limit by 10 times, including some public figures in this Chamber. So, what is the view of the Government on those who have occupied public resources for a long time? Are there any data which can reflect the number of persons who have occupied public resources for a long time? What policy has been put in place to deal with this problem? Can the Government answer this question as many people consider it extremely unfair?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, under the existing "Well-off Tenants Policies", households with their incomes exceeding WL income limits by a certain multiple are required to pay 1.5 times rent or double rent. Households with assets value exceeding a prescribed limit are required to move out of flats. Furthermore, they have to pay market rent during the short interim before moving out. I can thus provide some LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11975 figures as follows: among the 700 000-odd PRH tenants in Hong Kong last year, 19 300 are paying 1.5 times rent; 2 600 are paying double rent; and 30 are paying market rent. The total number is 21 930 households, representing 3% of the total number of PRH tenants. As the proportion is not high, it shows that the incomes and assets of PRH tenants mostly meet requirements.
When demanding PRH tenants to move out, we have to consider their income level as well as asset level. As pointed out in my main reply, the existing asset limit is 84 times of WL income limit.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary mentioned in part (b) of the main reply that the authorities had adopted a new method for the sale of HOS flats last year. Does the Secretary know that such an arrangement has relaxed the restrictions on the sale of HOS flats in the Secondary Market? As a result, the market price of HOS flats with premium not yet paid in urban areas such as Sham Shui Po and Wong Tai Sin has exceeded $3 million, which is generally not affordable to families in the lower middle income bracket.
Will the Government reconsider such an arrangement? Because it is contrary to the policy objective of selling HOS flats to PRH residents under GF Status, thereby releasing PRH flats for reallocation to WL applicants. On the contrary, PRH residents under GF Status cannot afford to buy HOS flats with premium not yet paid because in urban areas, including Sham Shui Po and Wong Tai Sin, the price of HOS flats with premium not yet paid has exceeded $3 million.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, we have always been concerned about the property price trend, including HOS flats with premium not yet paid in the Secondary Market. For some time in the past, or since last year, the HOS flat price has seen a rising trend which, however, has also reflected the market trend to some extent.
Anyway, the transitional plan which allows a limited number of WF buyers to buy HOS flats with premium not yet paid in the Secondary Market is in fact a response to aspirations in the community over the past few years. This includes some Legislative Council Members who urge that WF buyers be allowed to buy 11976 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
HOS flats on the ground that the Government has not provided new HOS flats to them and they cannot afford the prices of property in the private-sector market. Thus, it is hoped that they can purchase HOS flats in the Secondary Market. Given that there is a considerable number of flats in the market, they should be provided the opportunity to achieve home ownership.
Therefore, the new-term Government has proposed this plan for WF buyers after assuming office. Back then, we stated that this would be a transitional plan. In addition, there are various views in the community. We will certainly conduct a review of this plan. This plan, which allows 5 000 WF buyers to purchase HOS flats, will be launched in two phases. We will review its effectiveness and impact before making an assessment.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Yes. Just now I pointed out to the Secretary that the Government's original intention is to help people, especially the lower strata of society, achieve home ownership in the HOS Secondary Market. But now the Secondary Market has become a speculative market. Will the Government consider stopping this plan? In my supplementary question earlier on, I asked whether he would consider stopping the plan. But he has not answered this question in his repetitious reply.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, will you consider stopping the plan?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, the plan of allowing 5 000 eligible WF buyers to buy HOS flats will not be stopped because it has been launched. But we will review the results.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 22 minutes on this question. Second question.
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Measures to Promote Economic Development
2. MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress remarked in April this year that with the emergence of some deep-rooted conflicts in the economy of Hong Kong, coupled with the impact brought about by the global financial crisis, the competitive edges of Hong Kong were weakening, and the primary task at the moment was to focus on our economic development. He also pointed out that the coming three years would be crucial for us to get out of the shadow of economic crisis, and Hong Kong should raise her alertness to crises, seize opportunities pragmatically, strive to create new competitive edges and take forward new developments. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the new policies to consolidate the sustainable development of "the industries where Hong Kong enjoys clear advantages"; and
(b) how it will assist Hong Kong's industrial, commercial and professional services sectors in creating new competitive edges in the coming one or two years?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, the Chief Executive has stated in his policy address that to promote sustainable economic development, the Government must be "appropriately proactive" and vigorously seize the opportunities arising from the shift of the global economic gravity to the East and the wave of development for the Mainland economy ushered in by the implementation of the National 12th Five-Year Plan. In this regard, as the Financial Secretary has emphasized in the budget, we will strive to consolidate, expand and strengthen the advantages of our traditional pillar industries, and at the same time identify emerging industries with development potential, so as to broaden Hong Kong's economic base for long-term sustainable development. On the other hand, we will foster our economic integration with the Mainland to take advantage of its market development. In the light of our policies as mentioned above, my reply to the Member's two-part question is as follows:
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(a) As pointed out by the Financial Secretary in the budget, traditional pillar industries have been the major driving forces behind Hong Kong's economic development. These pillar industries have clear advantages internationally and are highly competitive. We must therefore expand and strengthen them to maintain our competitiveness. Currently, the four pillar industries are "trading and logistics", "tourism", "financial services" and "business and professional services".
Regarding the "trading and logistics industry", the Government has reserved sites for the trade to develop modern logistics facilities. Additional resources have been allocated to encourage companies' participation in the Hong Kong Authorised Economic Operator Programme operated by the Customs and Excise Department. The Government will explore how to make better use of the existing port facilities, and continue to promote the development of transport infrastructure. The Government will also assist local enterprises to tap new markets, including Southeast Asia and the BRICS countries.
To sustain the healthy development of the "tourism industry", the Government will assist in the further development of Ocean Park and Hong Kong Disneyland, and make comprehensive efforts in preparing for the commissioning of the Kai Tak Cruise Terminal. We will also collaborate with the travel trade on itinerary development and regional co-operation in order to reinforce Hong Kong's position as a regional cruise hub. Moreover, we will encourage the increase of hotel supply and enhancement of service quality, while seeking to host more mega events in Hong Kong.
As regards the "financial services industry", the Government will promote the diversification of business and products. We will further develop fund and asset management businesses, promote the sustainable development of the bond market, and enhance Hong Kong's competitiveness in the development of Islamic finance.
We will continue to assist the "business and professional services industry" in seizing business opportunities through relevant Government-to-Government platforms. For example, the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11979
Government has been assisting the services industry in Hong Kong, including the business and professional services sector, in gaining access to the Mainland market under preferential treatment in the context of the Closer Economic Partnership Arrangement.
On top of the above, the Chief Executive has established the Economic Development Commission (EDC), led by himself, to study from a high-level, cross-departmental and cross-sectoral perspective how to make the best use of Hong Kong's existing advantages and the opportunities made available by our country. The EDC will focus on studying the overall strategy and policy to broaden our economic base and enhance our long-term development, identify industries which present opportunities for further economic growth, and recommend policies and support measures for assisting these industries. Moreover, the Chief Executive has set up the Financial Services Development Council to provide views and suggestions from a high-level and cross-sectoral angle to the Government on how to promote the development of the financial services industry and reinforce Hong Kong's position as an international financial centre.
We believe that the existing specific measures, together with the views and suggestions provided by the high-level advisory bodies to the Government, can effectively help consolidate and sustain the development of the industries where Hong Kong has competitive edges.
(b) Apart from the measures mentioned in part (a) of this reply to support Hong Kong's industrial, commercial and professional services sectors, the Financial Secretary has also mentioned in the budget that the Government will continue to nurture emerging industries and support small and medium enterprises (SMEs) so that they can take advantage of the opportunities offered by the favourable general economic environment.
The Government will proactively provide appropriate support for emerging industries with the potential to flourish to facilitate their growth. Specifically, the Government will provide support for the cultural and creative industries in opening up more business 11980 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
opportunities and markets. The Government will also encourage the transformation of technology research outcomes into products with market potential, coupled with industrial production, to make an even greater contribution to Hong Kong's economy.
As for SMEs, we have extended the application period for the special concessionary measures under the SME Financing Guarantee Scheme for one year to the end of February 2014. We have also proposed to increase the cumulative amount of the grant for SMEs under the SME Export Marketing Fund from $150,000 to $200,000, subject to the meeting of relevant additional conditions. From 1 March 2013 onwards, the Hong Kong Export Credit Insurance Corporation has introduced a "Small Business Policy" (SBP) scheme for Hong Kong enterprises with an annual business turnover of less than $50 million, providing exporters with more flexibility in taking out insurance cover.
In addition, we will continue to make use of the $1 billion dedicated fund set up last June to assist Hong Kong enterprises in upgrading and restructuring, developing brands and promoting domestic sales in the Mainland. To step up our efforts to assist more Hong Kong enterprises, especially SMEs, to gain access to the Mainland market, the Hong Kong Trade Development Council will set up more Design Galleries in Mainland cities other than Beijing and Guangzhou to offer platforms for Hong Kong enterprises to showcase their products.
As regards support to the professional services sector, the Government will continue to strive for the most open trade conditions for the services industry in Hong Kong (including professional services) in the course of negotiating trade agreements with the Mainland and overseas countries, so as to facilitate the trade in exploring more business opportunities in these places. Furthermore, the Working Group on Professional Services under the EDC will consider possible areas of the professional services which have potential for further development and the government support required to help enhance their competitiveness.
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MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary's reply has been repeated so many times already that one can recite it and it is devoid of new ideas. However, at the end of the Chief Executive's visit to Beijing in April, he announced that the Central Government had decided to extend the "early and pilot implementation" approach in Guangdong to the six provinces in the Pan-Pearl River Delta Region (Pan-PRD Region). The total value of the Pan-PRD Region's economy accounts for a third of the total value of the national economy, so the region represents a tremendous opportunity and an important economic partner. However, it seems that so far, the Government has given this matter little publicity.
May I ask the Secretary what plans there are to assist SMEs, the business sector and the professional services sector to grasp this opportunity firmly?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, all along, in the context of CEPA, the SAR Government has striven to assist the service industries in Hong Kong, including the business and professional services sector, in gaining access to the Mainland market under preferential treatment. We will continue to promote the development of CEPA together with the Mainland, further promote the opening up of trade in services on the Mainland, create more business opportunities and expand the realms of co-operation, so as to secure preferential treatment in market access for Hong Kong enterprises and enhance Hong Kong's overall competitiveness.
Under the principle of gradual and orderly progress, in the past, many of the "early and pilot implementation" measures of the SAR Government were introduced into Guangdong as a start. In response to our proposal and with the support of the Central Authorities, the "early and pilot implementation" measures implemented in Guangdong have now been expanded into the "9+2" arrangement, that is, to eight provinces and the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region, so the scope of "early and pilot implementation" has been expanded.
At the same time, in the context of the "9+2" arrangement, we can also lobby for the introduction of the "early and pilot implementation" measures that have not yet been implemented in Guangdong. These proposals were put forward by the SAR Government to the Central Authorities and won the support of the latter. Concerning the next step of our work, we will liaise with various industries through our publicity and promotion efforts to explore what kind of 11982 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 treatment in market access they wish to secure the most. In this regard, we will liaise with the relevant units of the Central Authorities. Apart from the industries concerned, the relevant stakeholders will also undertake work in this regard.
MR CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, on the issue of industries where Hong Kong enjoys clear advantages, may I ask what new policies the authorities have to assist the financial services sector in creating new advantages, particularly given that Qianhai in Shenzhen has now reached a stage where it is poised for action after development. May I know what progress the Government has made in helping the financial services sector develop on the Mainland or promoting the Qualified Domestic Institutional Investor (that is, QDII) scheme, so as to further enhance our edge as an international financial centre?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): Thanks to Mr Christopher CHEUNG for his question. Just now, I also said in the main reply that the Chief Executive had established the FSDC to promote the development of the financial services industry from a high-level, cross-departmental and cross-sectoral angle.
Mr CHEUNG also asked about the development of Qianhai. I believe Mr CHEUNG is also fully aware that in the development of Qianhai, many projects are related to the financial industry. Such matters as adopting an "early and pilot implementation" approach, for example, by allowing banks in Hong Kong to offer Renminbi loans to enterprises or projects in Qianhai, and allowing the introduction of the "early and pilot implementation" approach in this regard, so as to make use of Qianhai to build an innovative pilot zone for cross-boundary Renminbi business, are all closely related to the financial services industry. We will liaise closely with the relevant departments in Shenzhen and those of the Central Authorities, as well as listening to the views of the sector, so as to secure more preferential treatment in market access for the financial services industry.
MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): President, the Government has established a working group to study the business of being an intellectual property trading hub.
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The DAB holds that since our neighbour, Singapore, has begun its development in this area a decade earlier than Hong Kong and published more new policies and policy reports recently, Hong Kong must expedite its study and development in this regard. Recently, we have submitted a proposal to the authorities, so may I ask what progress the Government thinks this working group has made? I also wish to understand if the working group has studied what should be done to provide greater assistance to SMEs and the development of innovation and technology in Hong Kong.
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): I thank Mr WONG Ting-kwong for his question. To develop Hong Kong into an intellectual property trading and management hub is exactly a major direction of our development.
In fact, Hong Kong enjoys many advantages and we can also see that the places surrounding us, such as Singapore, Shanghai and Beijing, are all competing with one another in the hope of making further progress in intellectual property trading. In this regard, Hong Kong has inherent strengths, in particular, it has a sound financial system and the capability to provide such professional services as legal, accounting, arbitration and mediation services. Our legal system and laws are based on the common law, so they can converge with the international community. In respect of our system, we practise a low-tax regime and our creativity and innovative technology are also highly developed. The greatest competitive edge of Hong Kong lies in the huge market of China, in which Hong Kong plays an active role in helping China going global and introducing new elements into China. Moreover, Hong Kong has its own special international outlook. Therefore, when we find that on a macro level, the places around us all want to develop the relevant industries, we can precisely make use of our advantages to promote Hong Kong's development in this regard.
The Chief Executive proposed in the policy address the establishment of the Working Group on Intellectual Property Trading, which is chaired by me and its Vice-Chairman is an expert in intellectual property rights, Andrew LIAO, Senior Counsel, and its members include representatives from the relevant sectors, for example, there are experts in valuation and professional services. It is hoped that we can pool collective wisdom and examine how best to promote intellectual property trading and management in Hong Kong. This is helpful to 11984 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
SMEs, in particular, they can choose suitable financial and business models for their operation, for example, if operators want to gain access to the Mainland market within a short time, they can adopt the approach of franchise or such other modes as acquisition and offer for hire their services, then develop in a high-value-added direction. Therefore, in respect of intellectual property trading, there is a lot of room of development for operators and these modes of operation can precisely help SMEs meet their needs in financing.
If the development of technology in many areas can be connected with the market, that is, if the market can be connected with technological research and development, the need for technological development can also be boosted significantly. This will also greatly enhance the effectiveness of technological research and development. Therefore, we believe that this is the direction of our development. Currently, the working group is conducting studies in these areas, in the hope that they can be linked together to form an overall goal. We are highly confident about this task.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): No, the Secretary did not give any reply about the time frame for the development of this trading hub and so far, no definite dates have been set. The question asked by me just now was: When can this intellectual property trading hub be established? We are waiting eagerly.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): Thanks to Mr WONG Ting-kwong for his question. This kind of platform or hub mentioned by us is not like that for stocking trading. In saying that this platform is a hub, what we mean is that this kind of activities in intellectual property trading can be carried out in such a place and there may not be any actual venue for conduct of such trading activities.
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In fact, there are already many such activities in Hong Kong. The direction in which we want to develop is, for example, to lower the costs of trading, or after standards have been set, both the Government and the industry have to join hands in building the infrastructure. At present, our working group is taking such a direction in its work.
MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): In part (b) of the main reply, the Secretary pointed out, "The Government will proactively provide appropriate support for emerging industries with the potential to flourish to facilitate their growth. Specifically, the Government will provide support for the cultural and creative industries in opening up more business opportunities and markets. The Government will also encourage the transformation of technology research outcomes into products with market potential, coupled with industrial production, to make an even greater contribution to Hong Kong's economy.". I believe that the relevant industries, on hearing these comments made by the Secretary, the importance attached by him to the creative industries and his encouragement for technological research, would express welcome very much. However, these remarks made by the Secretary are not creative enough because he has made this kind of remarks many times already and we can see that the results of technological research in Hong Kong are still lagging far behind those of other Asian cities.
Earlier on, in The Global Competitiveness Report of the World Economic Forum, the ranking of Hong Kong is 22nd, falling far behind other countries. May I ask the Secretary when he will introduce this locomotive of creativity? How can he raise the degree of creativity in Hong Kong, so as to support the development of the cultural and creative industries and the traditional industries in the direction of innovation?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): Thanks to Mr Jeffrey LAM for his question. Just now, I said in the main reply that the Government attaches great importance to the development of the traditional industries. Apart from this, the Government also highly values the development of the creative industries and innovative technology, in particular, it attaches great importance to how the results of the creative industries and innovative technology can be applied to the traditional industries.
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In reply to Mr WONG Ting-kwong's question, I said that an intellectual property trading or management hub could connect the business sector to our technological research as well as innovative or creative industries, so that economic benefits can be generated in this way.
Please allow me to say a little bit more on this. In respect of technological research, various schemes have been introduced by the Government under the Innovation and Technology Fund to encourage technological research activities, including the Small Entrepreneur Research Assistance Programme and the Research and Development Cash Rebate Scheme, and five research and development centres also focus on commercializing the results of certain technological areas.
On the creative industries, the activities organized by us in the past, for example, the Business of Design Week and the Knowledge of Design Week, were all designed to showcase the results of the creative industries in Hong Kong to the business sector. As regards training, the Design Incubation Programme is designed to help local designers, and 125 companies in total have participated in this incubation programme.
Generally speaking, we will focus our study on these items. The EDC established in January is designed to explore and study in depth various aspects of economic development, including diversified infrastructure development in Hong Kong. The Working Group on Manufacturing Industries, Innovative Technology and Cultural and Creative Industries under the EDC will hold specific and focused discussions on the needs and development of these industries.
We believe that with the collective wisdom of the members of the EDC and the Working Groups under it ― Mr Andrew LEUNG here is also a member of this Committee ― the EDC can surely make practicable proposals on Hong Kong's long-term economic development.
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary, in his response on the development of tourism, only focused on improving the existing hardware but there is no elaboration on the planning for tourism for the next few years, nor is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11987 there any new idea. May I ask the authorities what the ideas on the future planning for tourism are?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): Thanks to Mr YIU Si-wing for his question. Mr YIU is also well aware that we have done a great deal in respect of the infrastructure for and the regulation of tourism. For example, in relation to a framework for the regulation of tourism, we carried out an extensive consultation to pool collective wisdom and the Travel Industry Authority (TIA) was established. Under the framework of the TIA, we will examine the training and regulatory needs in relation to the development of tourism as a whole.
In addition, we are now carrying out an assessment on the capacity and direction of development of tourism in Hong Kong. In this regard, if it is necessary to explore certain aspects or pursue focused development, we will continue to undertake the relevant tasks. I believe, with the joint efforts of the industry and the Government, our tourism industry will see lively and diversified development.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): No, he only talked about one aspect of the issue. Planning should be holistic and involves various aspects of tourism, such as food, accommodation, transport, entertainment, sightseeing and shopping. The industry is just one of these aspects. I hope the authorities can give holistic consideration to the development of tourism.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, on holistic planning, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, on the provision of sightseeing spots and the training of 11988 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 manpower for the tourism industry, we have done a lot of work to identify our strengths in this regard. In addition, on finding new sources of visitors, through the promotions of the Hong Kong Tourism Board overseas and on the Mainland, we have developed new sources of visitors, in particular, we noticed that the numbers of visitors from many emerging markets, for example, Russia, have seen significant increases.
In addition, we have striven for the implementation of an "early and pilot implementation" measure for the industry in the context of CEPA. For example, a company can now organize outbound tours. In the future, we will continue to explore, together with the departments of the Central Authorities, how to help the industry develop more new business opportunities.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent almost 24 minutes on this question. Third question.
Adjustment of Statutory Minimum Wage Rate
3. MR POON SIU-PING (in Cantonese): President, on 1 May this year, the Statutory Minimum Wage rate (SMW) which had been in force for two years was adjusted upwards for the first time from $28 per hour to $30 per hour, representing an increase of 7.1%. Nevertheless, the rate of adjustment of the SMW is lower than the cumulative inflation rate in the same period, resulting in a drop, instead of a rise, in the living standard of those employees earning SMW. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether the Government has considered providing living allowances to employees earning the SMW, so as to ensure that their living standard will not drop as a result of the inflation rate being higher than the rate of adjustment in the SMW; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(b) whether it will consider requiring that the rate of adjustment in SMW recommended by the Minimum Wage Commission (MWC) must not be lower than the inflation rate in the same period; if so, of the details, if not, the reasons for that; and
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(c) whether the Government will make reference to the existing practice of adjusting the civil service pay on an annual basis and reconsider shortening the review cycle of the SMW from two years at present to one year; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): President, my reply to the question raised by the Honourable POON Siu-ping is as follows:
(a) The SMW aims at providing a wage floor to forestall excessively low wages, without unduly jeopardizing Hong Kong's labour market flexibility, economic growth and competitiveness or causing significant adverse impact on the employment opportunities of vulnerable workers.
Separately, the Government has put in place a non-contributory social security system which includes, amongst others, the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) Scheme serving as a safety net of last resort to help families which cannot support themselves financially to meet their basic needs. The amount of CSSA payment is the difference between the applicant's/family's "assessable income" (including their wages) and "recognized needs" under the CSSA Scheme. In addition, the Community Care Fund rolls out different programmes to provide support to those in need of financial assistance.
To relieve the burden of work-related travelling expenses on low-income workers and to promote sustained employment, the Labour Department implements the territory-wide Work Incentive Transport Subsidy Scheme. Applications may be made either on a household or an individual basis. An eligible applicant receives a monthly subsidy of $600 (for those working no less than 72 hours per month) or $300 (for those working less than 72 hours but at least 36 hours per month).
(b) Under the Minimum Wage Ordinance (MWO), the MWC is tasked to recommend to the Government the amount of the prescribed minimum hourly wage rate. In performing its role, the MWC must have regard to the need to maintain an appropriate balance between 11990 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
the objectives of forestalling excessively low wages and minimizing the loss of low-paid jobs and also the need to maintain Hong Kong's economic growth and competitiveness. In reviewing the SMW rate, the MWC has to take into account a basket of indicators reflecting the latest socio-economic and employment situation which include, among other things, relevant data on inflation. As a matter of fact, there has been substantial improvement in the earnings of grass-roots employees following the implementation of the SMW. For the period of January to March 2013, the average monthly employment earnings of the lowest decile group of full-time low-income employees registered a year-on-year increase of 7.7% (or an increase of 3.4% after discounting inflation), outpacing the overall average pay rise of 2.4%.
The SMW impacts significantly on an array of factors like the labour market, employment, society, economy, inflation, productivity and competitiveness which interact constantly and vary according to different socio-economic circumstances. If there is a rigid requirement that the rate of adjustment in the SMW recommended by the MWC must not be lower than the inflation rate in the same period, it cannot take account of the changing social, employment and economic environment in an effective, timely and flexible manner. It will also lead to the chain effect of wages and prices chasing each other, thus causing a self-perpetuating inflationary spiral.
Adopting an evidence-based approach, the MWC undertakes detailed analyses on wage distribution data and findings of other surveys, and makes reference to various employment, social and economic statistics. It conducts assessment of the impact of the SMW rate as well as extensive consultation with all stakeholders in order to recommend an appropriate rate. The existing arrangement is considered objective and appropriate.
(c) The MWO requires that the SMW rate must be reviewed at least once in every two years. Setting a limit of not exceeding two years for the review cycle is a pragmatic arrangement which was the consensus when legislating on the SMW. Following the implementation of the new SMW rate of $30 per hour with effect LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11991
from 1 May 2013, the MWC has now commenced a further study of the SMW rate.
MR POON SIU-PING (in Cantonese): President, the Government has recently launched an Announcement of Public Interests to publicize the SMW, saying the provision of a wage floor can protect grass-roots employees. According to the reply given by the Secretary just now, however, the Government will not provide living allowances to employees earning the SMW, nor is it prepared to shorten the review cycle of the SMW from two years to one year.
May I ask the Secretary, given that the present rate of adjustment in the SMW is unable to catch up with the inflation rate, how can the SMW protect grass-root employees?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): First of all, President, I would like to thank Mr POON for raising the supplementary question. I would like to clarify two very important sets of figures. First, I have explained clearly in the main reply that, according to the latest figures between January and March this year, the average monthly wages of full-time low-income employees in the lowest decile group (workers at the most elementary level) registered a year-on-year increase of 7.7%, or an increase of 3.4% after discounting inflation, outpacing the overall average pay rise of 2.4%. This is the first point. These figures are very important, too. In other words, there has been improvement in the earnings and living standard of grass-roots employees. This is the fact.
Second, the SMW has taken effect precisely for two years, and the new SMW rate came into force this month. According to the figures announced yesterday, the cumulative inflation rate over the past two years has seen an increase of 8.4% to render the SMW approximately at $30.3, if $28 is used as the base. Now, with the SMW rate increasing from $28 to $30, the rate of increase is approximately 7.1%, which is actually very close to the inflation rate.
Most importantly, as I have explained clearly in the main reply, the inflation rate cannot be used solely as the base for pegging with the SMW. Why? It is because consideration should also be given to a host of indicators and interactive factors and the retention of enough flexibility is very important. 11992 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Hence, the present evidence-based mechanism is considered objective and appropriate.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary pointed out in part (b) of the main reply that the average monthly employment earnings of the lowest decile group of full-time low-income employees registered a year-on-year increase of 7.7%, but he fell short of stating how many working hours they must work before their monthly wages can register an increase of 7.7%. I am now talking about the computation of the SMW on an hourly-rated basis, President, because it is the fairest calculation method.
The setting of the SMW is meant to enable workers to live with dignity. If they have to receive a supplement before they can survive, it will give people an impression that the Government is subsidizing employers. Hence, the prescription of the SMW and the considerations made are equally important. Nevertheless, the existing process of prescribing the SMW is far from transparent. May I ask the Secretary whether the process of and formula for the prescription of the SMW can be disclosed?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Every year, the Government will publish statistical data on income and working hours distribution. It is not only a very clear survey but also the cornerstone of the SMW review conducted by the MWC. The MWC also considers a basket of 36 indicators covering such information as the overall economic situation, the situation in the labour market, competitiveness and social integration. All of this is accounted for on the website of the MWC in a highly transparent manner, though it is no novelty. As Members are all aware, since the SMW has been in force for two years, and this is not the first time it is discussed here, we have already had a basis and a mode for follow-up.
I would like to tell Members that the SMW can indeed improve the livelihood of the grassroots. This is the fact. As regards the issue raised by a Member just now concerning the computation of SMW on an hourly-rated basis, the statistical survey of the Census and Statistics Department generally covers full-time employees and their monthly income. Simply put, the monthly wages of employee in the lowest decile group were $5,900 before the implementation of the SMW, but were increased to $6,900 in the first year thereafter, registering a year-on-year increase of 17.7%. The increase this year is 7.7%, which means an LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11993 increase of over 3% even after discounting inflation. Members can see that the livelihood of the grassroots has indeed improved. In particular, with more than 80 000 women having joined the labour market to date, there has been improvement in the livelihood of many grass-roots households.
Some people say that the wages earned by the grassroots might not be enough for them to make ends meet. Actually, we still have two mechanisms in place. The first one is the transport subsidy. We encourage the grassroots who have to commute to their workplaces to submit applications. In general, qualified persons will receive a monthly subsidy of $600. Second, if they can still not make ends meet ― actually, more than 9 900 low-income households are currently receiving low earnings CSSA. In other words, we are helping these households improve their lot through these two channels.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered my question concerned how a formula is used for computation and come up with the $2. I consider the rest of the data highly transparent.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Is there a formula?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): We do not use a formula in Hong Kong. Like other places around the world, such as the United Kingdom, Canada, Japan and South Korea, Hong Kong makes reference to a basket of indicators. At present, except for France, few places in the world adopt the so-called formula approach, because it is restricted in some measure. Moreover, it is very rigid and lacks flexibility. For instance, wages have to be adjusted downwards in times of deflation. But do we have to adjust the SMW rate downwards immediately when we are hit by deflation? Hence, we need a more flexible mechanism. The existing mechanism, which has been in force for two years, is considered objective and appropriate.
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DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): According to the Secretary, the SMW aims at forestalling excessively low wages. We do not wish to see wages falling to such a low level that, even if members of the public are willing to work, their reward is so meagre that their basic needs cannot be met. With the SMW increasing from $28 to $30 now, the rate of increase is 7.1%. However, the increase in the cumulative inflation rate during the two years from 2011 to 2013 is more than 9%. In other words, the adjustment in the SMW rate has fallen far behind the inflation rate. This is the objective fact. Concerning the Secretary's repeated comment just now that the SMW can catch up with inflation, may I ask him, given that the main objective of prescribing the SMW is to forestall excessively low wages, but now it has even failed to catch up with inflation, why does the Government still insists on conducting a review once every two years? I think that the review should be conducted once every year. May I ask the Secretary the reasons for conducting the review once every two years?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Thanks, Dr CHEUNG. First of all, I have to clarify the figures provided by you just now. You said that the cumulative inflation rate over the two years was over 9%, but it is not the fact. According to the figures announced yesterday, during the past two years ― exactly 24 months from May 2011 to April 2013 ― the cumulative inflation rate was 8.4%. If we use $28 as the base and use the rate of increase of 8.4% for calculation (multiplying $28 by 108.4%), the product will be around $30. Therefore, $30 is an appropriate level. This is the first fact I have to clarify.
Second, regarding the question you raised just now as to why an annual review is not conducted, I have actually explained it repeatedly in this Council, and Members also understand that according to the consensus reached among us during the enactment of the SMW law back then, the review should be carried out at least once every two years. Why can we not conduct an annual review at this stage? We do not rule out doing so if the circumstances so warrant, such as a sudden change in the socio-economic situation, or a sharp rise or an enormous fluctuation in the inflation rate. If we consider that there is a need to do so, the MWC may carry out a review. The socio-economic situation is an important factor of consideration and we will use it as the basis. This is the first point.
Second, as we have already explained, an annual review has both merits and demerits. Its merit is that many wage earners can put their minds at ease LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11995 because a review will be conducted annually. However, Members should also understand that the review will not necessarily adjust the SMW rate upwards If it is conducted at the time of an economic downturn ― let me cite deflation as an example ― do we have to lower the SMW rate immediately? The present approach of conducting a review at least once every two years is more flexible. We can examine more data, but if the data for one year were not entirely accurate, can we examine more data? In that case, two years offer more flexibility.
If a review is conducted once every year, some short-sighted employers might offer their employees one-year rather than two-year contracts. Insofar as wage earners are concerned, the situation of their jobs becoming even more fragmented may worsen. Judging from the business environment, if the services industries (such as the cleaning and security industries) can enter into longer-term contracts of two years with employees, the latter's job security can be enhanced. Moreover, better arrangements can be made for staff recruitment.
Hence, as I have explained repeatedly, we do not rule out the possibility of conducting an annual review when necessary. We will adopt the evidence-based approach, and if the circumstances so warrant, we would conduct one more review. We can absolutely consider doing so.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Although the Secretary has just explained under what circumstances a review will be conducted in less than two years, I still want him to clarify, given that the evidence-based approach will be adopted, whether a figure will be used as a threshold, so that a review will be conducted in less than two years provided that the figure is lower or higher than that threshold?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): We do not provide the MWC with such guidelines. As all members of the MWC are experts, including academics, representatives from the labour sector and employers, and government colleagues ― one of them is the Government 11996 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Economist ― they have a good understanding of the economic situation and will perform their task objectively and impartially in the interest of Hong Kong as a whole.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has cited unilateral data to support his argument that the increase rate of 7.7% in the wages earned by grass-roots employees is already higher than the overall pay rise of 2.4%. We consider these figures and arguments unreasonable. As pointed out by a Member just now, the relevant figures have absolutely failed to take account of the working hours, workload and working environment of employees. Nowadays, many grass-roots people have to work long hours. Moreover, the workload of one person might be equivalent to that of two. Their working environment might be very poor, too. Hence, it is absolutely unreasonable for the Secretary to attempt to cite the figure of 7.7% alone to support his point that the SMW is neither low nor unacceptable, or it can already satisfy the needs of the grassroots.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWOK, please raise your supplementary question and stop making further comments.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is related to the workload and working environment mentioned just now. We have always held that the SMW must be implemented jointly with standard working hours before the working environment of grass-roots employees and their earning of standard wages can be protected. According to the Standard Working Hours Committee, a consensus cannot be reached until three years later. So, how can the Government protect wage earners against leading a tough life like a mule during the interim?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWOK, the main question is about the review and adjustment of the SMW rate. What does your supplementary question have to do with the main question?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11997
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): Just now, some Members expressed approval of our view that the SMW should actually be implemented jointly with standard working hours before the needs of wage earners can be met. If only ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): I would like to remind the Secretary again that the SMW must be implemented jointly with standard working hours before the livelihood of grass-roots can be protected and work-rest balance be struck. As the Standard Working Hours Committee cannot reach a consensus until three years later, what proposal does the Government have and what will it do to protect employees from working exceedingly long hours because of the SMW ― because it can simply not support one's living? During the interim, what measures will the Government adopt to prevent this from happening?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): First of all, President, insofar as standard working hours are concerned, I wish to point out briefly, as Members also know, that the Standard Working Hours Committee has got started and convened its first meeting. It will explore in a serious and pragmatic manner the direction of Hong Kong's policy on working hours, and whether working hours should be regulated through legislation or by other means. This is the first point.
Second, insofar as working hours are concerned, the implementation of the SMW has not had any marked effect on the working hours data. This point is very important, for longer working hours would mean that the SMW is counter-productive. In fact, no such situation has emerged. We have also seen that the situation has not worsened. These figures are helpful. President, I have to emphasize that the MWC and the Standard Working Hours Committee have only one common goal, that is, on the premise of balancing the interests of employers and employees as well as the interest of Hong Kong as a whole, to improve the labour interest and benefits of employees in Hong Kong.
11998 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fourth question.
Private Recreational Leases
4. MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): In reply to a question of a Member of this Council in March this year, the Home Affairs Bureau indicated that more than 50 private recreational leases (PRLs) that had expired in 2011 and 2012 were being renewed. The PRLs were granted by the Government at nil or nominal rents to sports clubs of social welfare organizations and private sports clubs (sports clubs) many years ago. It has been reported that the PRLs will be renewed for 15 years. On the other hand, the Office of The Ombudsman (The Ombudsman) published in 2012 a direct investigation report, in which it: (i) criticized the Home Affairs Bureau for its clear inadequacy of monitoring efforts in the enforcement of the lease conditions of the PRLs, (ii) criticized various sports clubs for serious scarcity of opening hours of their facilities for use by outside bodies, (iii) suggested that the Home Affairs Bureau should maximize the number of opening hours of facilities as far as the sports clubs' respective scale of operation permitted, and (iv) suggested that the Home Affairs Bureau should develop a proper mechanism for handling complaints concerning the opening of the sports facilities of the sports clubs and stipulate clearly who has the authority to make the final decision in case of disputes. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) as the facilities of most sports clubs are dedicated for use by their members and only limited access is granted to group applicants at present, whether the authorities know the conditions for membership application set by the relevant sports clubs of the lessees of PRLs; if they do, of the relevant information, broken down by the name of the relevant sports clubs; whether the Home Affairs Bureau has reviewed if those conditions can tie in with the Government's policy objectives for sports development (including the promotion of elite sports development), and can convince the public that the sports clubs' repayment to society matches the subsidies in land resources they receive; of the reasons for the authorities deciding to renew the PRLs with the various lessees for 15 years; whether they have considered shortening the terms of leases or requesting the lessees who occupy larger land areas to surrender part of the land for housing development;
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 11999
(b) whether the Government has policies and measures to follow up the aforesaid criticisms and suggestions raised by The Ombudsman; if it has, of the details; and
(c) as the Government informed this Council in 2011 that in renewing the PRLs, it would add new provisions requiring the sports clubs concerned to further open up their facilities to outside bodies, of the number of hours for which each sports club is required to open up its facilities to outside bodies under the new provisions, as well as a list setting out the name of each lessee, the address of the facilities concerned, and the number of opening hours of each of those facilities (for example, swimming pools and gyms, and so on)?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, whilst renewing PRLs that expired in 2011 and 2012, the Administration is overseeing lessees' compliance with the terms of the PRLs, including implementation of schemes to allow greater access to their facilities. We shall report the progress of lease renewals at a coming meeting of the Legislative Council Panel on Home Affairs.
My reply to the three parts of the question is as follows:
(a) PRL lessees determine their membership requirements in accordance with their individual circumstances, and such requirements are laid down in their articles of association. Generally speaking, a candidate for membership may become a member upon the recommendation of existing members and his or her acceptance of the objects of the club.
Sports clubs operating under PRLs have the promotion of sport and recreation as one of their objects, which is consistent with the Administration's policy for sports development. Over the years, sports clubs throughout Hong Kong have provided their services to over 650 000 members, their relatives and friends, as well as given outside bodies access to their sports facilities, by charging members or facility users or raising funds on their own to develop, maintain and manage their facilities. Up to the present, they still help to meet the sporting and recreational needs of the public.
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The Home Affairs Bureau has advised all PRL lessees that the Administration will conduct a comprehensive review of the PRL policy and that lessees shall not assume that their PRLs would be further renewed or be renewed under the same terms and conditions upon the expiry of the renewed lease. Renewing existing PRLs for 15 years is considered appropriate and reasonable in order to allow lessees time to respond to possible policy changes by the Administration.
Under the existing lease terms, the Administration has the power to resume specific sites occupied under PRLs, provided that an appropriate notification period is given to the lessee in question. This being the case, the length of the renewal term should not in principle have a bearing on the Administration's long-term planning.
(b) The Home Affairs Bureau is acting on the advice of The Ombudsman with regard to the administration of PRLs, for example, by requiring lessees under the new lease condition to submit reports on the utilization of their facilities, increasing publicity and consulting competent authorities on the establishment of a complaint handling mechanism. We have made good progress in requiring lessees to allow greater access to outside organizations in relation to the scale of their facilities.
(c) Up to now, we have approved 46 schemes submitted by PRL lessees to allow greater access to their sports facilities. Of these, seven have completed the lease renewal procedures (as at the end of April). As the renewal of the majority of the PRLs is still in progress, we shall provide further details regarding the extent to which lessees will allow greater access to their sports facilities at an appropriate time.
All of the seven lessees in respect of which we have completed renewal procedures have agreed to allow access to their sports and recreational facilities well in excess of the minimum requirement of 50 hours per month. Following formal consultation, the sports clubs concerned have agreed to open their facilities as far as possible in accordance with their respective scale and conditions, with the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12001
total number of hours of access ranging from 161 to 3 320 per month (please refer to the Annex for details). Facilities that are open to outside bodies are suitable for sports such as lawn bowls, squash, tennis, badminton, cricket and swimming. We have provided information to eligible outside bodies through the relevant competent authorities, and have published newspaper advertisements to promote the greater use of these facilities.
Annex
Schemes to implement greater access requirements at sites Operated under PRLs
Schemes to implement the greater access requirements Opening hours Opening hours Lease Total opening Lessees to eligible to national locations Facilities hours per outside sports month bodies(1) associations Filipino Wylie Road, Lawn bowling Club Kowloon green and table 320 240 80 tennis room Hong Kong Ping Shan, Campsite facilities Girl Guides Yuen Long (including 1 355 1 029 326 Association residential camp and day camp)(2) Kowloon Austin Lawn bowling Bowling Road, green, tennis court 161 96 65 Green Club Kowloon and swimming pool Kowloon Cox's Road, Badminton court, Cricket Kowloon bowling alley, Club lawn bowling green, grass pitch, 3 320 1 168 2 152 squash court, swimming pool, tennis court and cricket ground Municipal Wylie Path, Tennis court and Services Kowloon table tennis room Staff 612 516 96 Recreation Club 12002 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Schemes to implement the greater access requirements Opening hours Opening hours Lease Total opening Lessees to eligible to national locations Facilities hours per outside sports month bodies(1) associations Pakistan Princess Cricket and hockey Association Margaret training ground of Hong Road, and squash court 284 244 40 Kong Kowloon Limited South China Wylie Path, Tennis court Athletic Kowloon 382 382 Association
Notes:
(1) Eligible outside bodies refer to schools, social and welfare organizations, national sports associations, uniformed groups and government departments.
(2) The figures of campsite facilities denote the number of places available for residential camp/day camp.
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): President, the main reply from the Government has not addressed at all my questions on eligibility of membership and opening hours of the facilities. I hope that supplementary information can be provided after the meeting on points like the area of sites leased by each PRL lessee, the number of members of each lessee, the membership requirements for each lessee and the respective charges.
The most important message in the Government's reply is that a full-scale review of the policy will be carried out soon with a review to deciding whether or not it is appropriate and reasonable that such leases should be renewed for another 15 years. May I ask since the Government is so desperately in need of land and since a thorough review is going to be conducted, why this so-called appropriate and reasonable length of the term of leases is not five years or seven years? Why must it be 15 years? What are the justifications for that?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, thanks to Mr WU first for his question. About the question of the length of the term of leases, we have considered it in detail and balanced the demands of all quarters. Members may already know that before 1997, the term of lease for these sports associations was 15 years and that was a matter of practice. In 1997 and 1998, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12003 after the reunification, the SAR Government adopted the guiding principle of giving due respect to history and so the original system and rights remained unchanged. Hence the terms of such leases were extended for 15 years until their expiry in 2011 or 2012. When these leases are due for renewal now, we have made a very important decision, that is, all the lessees are informed that renewal of lease on this occasion does not mean that the SAR Government will renew such leases on the next occasion. Even if the leases in question are renewed, they may not necessarily be renewed on the same terms as before. This is a formal notice sent to all lessees for the purpose of enabling them to prepare for significant changes. In enabling these sports clubs to prepare for such significant changes, we will allow them to renew their leases for 15 years so that they can have enough time to make the preparations. We consider this an appropriate approach.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WU, what is your point?
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has actually not answered my supplementary question. Because part (a) of the main reply states clearly that "Under the existing lease terms, the Administration has the power to resume specific sites occupied under PRLs"……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): May I ask why the Government cannot consider resuming sites occupied under PRLs after five years or an even shorter period of time?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You are asking why the Government does not consider renewing the PRLs for a term of five years or seven years. The Secretary has explained the grounds held by the Government. If you do not agree, please follow the matter up through other channels.
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MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): President, I have read the leases renewed, that is, those found in the Annex. I find that some of these leases are surprisingly good. I do not quite understand why this is so and I must say I am overjoyed and almost moved to tears. For example, the Kowloon Cricket Club says that it will open up eight venues and the total opening hours per month are 3 320 hours. I have done some simple computations. If the opening hours run from nine in the morning to nine in the evening every day, that is, a total of 12 hours, the total opening hours each month would be some 3 000 hours. That means the opening hours daily would be 110 hours. Since that sports club has only got eight venues, then does it mean that all of them will be open to the public? Is it really that good? Shall I not be overjoyed at learning about that? I do not know if the Secretary knows that the so-called opening hours of that club are really that good. Besides, does that club set such opening hours with the imposition of restrictions in other aspects? Actually, this is to say that everyone will have the same right as members of the Cricket Club, for example. And they can book the facilities at any time. Is this the case? If not, has the Secretary ever thought about this in detail or has he ever questioned whether this is true?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, the information about opening hours is written down in this formal document after the Home Affairs Bureau has held detailed discussions with the relevant club and these opening hours will become part of the terms in the renewal of the land lease concerned. If these terms are not complied with, the Home Affairs Bureau will make its view known to the authority enforcing the land lease.
Mr TO may not understand that in effect the club concerned is not open to everyone. As a matter of fact, by making the facilities accessible it means that these facilities are open to eligible outside bodies such as schools, non-governmental organizations funded by the Social Welfare Department such as uniformed groups, and so on. By "opening" it means making the facilities accessible to designated bodies whereas not everyone can walk in and use these facilities.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
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MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): Such information has come to my knowledge because it is written down in the Annex. But what I mean is, has the Secretary ever studied the actual situation and see what it is like? By opening some 3 000 hours, it means that the eight venues will be opened at all times. Then members of the club will not be able to use them if they want to. Or are there some tricky restrictions which are hidden and which we do not know? Has the Secretary ever tried to find out the situation or does he know that the case is really that good? If it is, then of course I would welcome it. But may I ask the Secretary if he has ever found out what the situation is? Is it really the case?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I can see from the English version of the main reply that it is "total opening hours". Secretary, could you do some explaining? About the opening hours of some 3 000 hours, does it mean the time when these facilities are available or the hours when they are open to the public?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): These are hours which they are open to the public.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): President, I would also like to follow up.
The Secretary has just said that before 1997, as a general rule, existing leases were renewed for 15 years in general. The Secretary should know that now 1997 is already past and the government before 1997 is not the Government now. I hope the Secretary should not mix up the two.
Besides, I also know that the Secretary would like to see these clubs hold more sports and leisure activities. But the Secretary should also know that the nature of these clubs has changed and they do not hold sports and leisure activities anymore. This applies especially to clubs situated in busy locations and the town centre. They have become places for dining and socializing. I have at hand a lot of information in this respect …… People of different nationalities, such as the Nepalese, may ask why there is the India Club, and so on. Many people may ask this kind of question. So the supplementary question I wish to ask the Secretary is, I do not know if you …… you now renew their leases for 15 years in the hope that these clubs can be regulated for a longer 12006 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 time. And 15 years later, you may decide not to renew their leases. But Secretary, we will definitely monitor these clubs. Do you know? You ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHIANG, please raise your supplementary question.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): Have I not yet raised my supplementary question?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please ask your supplementary question.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): OK. Secretary, may I ask whether or not these clubs are regulated in respect of their income and expenditure? Because we know that some of these clubs charge membership fees as much as some $10 million. Where does that sum of some $10 million go? Also, if you renew the leases with these clubs, I wish to ask ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHIANG, you may only ask one supplementary question.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): I have done so. The one just raised.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please sit down.
DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): All right.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, all the clubs which the Home Affairs Bureau has acted pursuant to its sports policy and for which support is given to the land authorities to grant a PRL are LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12007 non-profit-making organizations and bodies. As for membership fees, these clubs have to comply with the Companies Ordinance and they are regulated by it.
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, the present government policy regarding these clubs is a kind of unequal treaty left over from the colonial times. In effect this creates an all-lose situation. Honourable colleagues have just mentioned that the membership fees of these clubs range from some $100,000 to almost $10 million. So if these clubs are open to everyone, it will be unfair to their members. But if these clubs are allowed to run at no cost, this is most unfair to the people of Hong Kong. Why does the Secretary not make use of this opportunity to consider collecting an annual rent from these clubs and set certain standards and use the rent or other moneys collected to build leisure facilities for use by people who cannot use these club facilities? Why is this not considered?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, we collect an annual rent from these clubs. We charge Government Rent at 3% of their rateable value. It is true that when these leases are renewed, we do not charge any premium. As Mr TONG has said, this is a problem left over by history. Since these clubs run on their own and raise funds or charge membership fees to set up sports and leisure facilities for use by their members, so based on our support for sports and leisure facilities, we lend them support by means of our land policy. These clubs are not required to pay any land premium when their leases are renewed, but they have to pay Government Rent.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, my question is: Will the Government collect a more reasonable Government Rent, such as at a certain percentage of the membership fees collected? Then the money will be returned to taxpayers for the building of leisure and sports facilities. This sounds to be a more reasonable approach. President, I am not talking about the 3% which is currently charged because in actual fact, this is like not charging anything. 12008 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Besides, I hope that the Secretary can give a reply as to whether or not a more reasonable Government Rent will be collected.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, will you consider changing the relevant policy?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, when we renewed these leases on this occasion, they were still based on the original policy. But after this renewal, we will undertake a full-scale review to examine the policy objectives of sports development as well as the land use policy and how a proper balance can be struck among different stakeholders, including club members and members of the public.
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): President, in March, Mr SIN Chung-kai of the Democratic Party raised a similar question. Secretary, now 46 of these leases have expired and they are waiting for government approval. Now the Government has approved seven of these leases and they will be renewed for 15 years. The Secretary has said in his reply to the previous supplementary question that a full-scale review will be undertaken after these 46 leases are renewed and consideration will be given to the policy for sports development, land use, concern of the members of the lessees and public interest in general before the way forward for the policy concerned is set.
My supplementary question is: Since you think that there are problems with the policy and a full-scale review will be undertaken, then why should serious consideration not be given to shortening the term of such renewed leases and change the leases into temporary leases instead of renewing them for 15 years? It should be noted that 15 years are three terms of the Government and Members sitting here will not know if they still serve in the Council by then. Moreover, even if this review is completed, it will have to wait for 15 years before the results can be put into practice. To me this is not acceptable. A number of Members have asked earlier whether or not the Secretary can shorten the leases in future, increase the Government Rents or make the venues accessible to more people, including individuals, especially in the light of the present situation that most grass-roots people are unable to join these clubs ……
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr WONG, please state your supplementary question clearly.
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is: Will the Secretary consider shortening the term of the leases so that they will become temporary leases and reducing the term from 15 years to a more reasonable length to make the future review more meaningful?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I wish to make a clarification regarding a few figures. Now there are about 70 such clubs; the exact number is somewhere between 71 and 69. This is because we have resumed some leases. As for the 46 leases mentioned by Dr WONG just now, I would like to point out that actually 51 or 52 leases have expired and 46 of them should be renewed. The lessees of these 46 leases have undertaken that they will introduce schemes to make their clubs more accessible. We have approved these applications and handed them to the land authorities for action.
As I have mentioned in the main reply, of the 46 schemes submitted by PRL lessees to allow greater access to their sports facilities, seven have completed the lease renewal procedures, but the number refers to the number of schemes to allow greater access which we have approved as at the end of April. Now it is May, and we have approved three more such schemes for greater access. In other words, the leases of 10 clubs have been renewed.
As to the question of whether the length of the lease term should be shortened at this moment before a review is undertaken, I have considered views in this respect very carefully. With respect to club members and the overall operation of these clubs, if there is only a transitional period of three years after the lease renewal, it would be difficult for them to engage in any work in development or repairs and maintenance. So it would be unfair to them. These clubs have had 15-year leases in the past and when we renew leases with them for 15 years, we state clearly that things may be very different after 15 years. This would in our opinion be a suitable approach.
12010 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent almost 23 minutes on this question. Fifth question.
Dental Services for Elderly
5. DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): President, quite a number of elderly people have relayed to me that their demand for dental services is extremely great. However, as there are only 11 government dental clinics with general public sessions (government dental clinics) in the territory, the service capacity is obviously inadequate. Also, the services provided are limited to pain relief and tooth extraction, and do not cover denture-fixing or tooth-filling services. As such, most elderly people can only seek treatment from dental clinics in the private sector, but they generally cannot afford the high fees charged by such clinics and the healthcare vouchers provided by the Government are also of little help. As a result, quite a number of them have put off treatment for their dental problems, thus causing long-term impacts on their physical and psychological health. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of service hours of various government dental clinics at present; whether it will consider afresh extending the service hours of such clinics, expanding their service capacity and increasing the number of such clinics; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(b) among the elderly people receiving the services of government dental clinics at present, of the respective percentages of those involving pain relief and tooth extraction services; whether the authorities have considered providing additional quotas of dental services specifically for the elderly people; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(c) given the great demand among the elderly people for dental services and their low financial affordability in general, whether the authorities have considered implementing new measures to provide subsidized dental services for the elderly people by means of, for instance, adopting a co-payment approach or providing LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12011
comprehensive dental services for the elderly people at low charges; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, the Government's policy on dental care seeks to raise public awareness of oral health and facilitate the development of proper oral health habits through promotion and education, thereby improving oral health and preventing dental diseases. The Government has been allocating resources primarily to promotion and preventive efforts. To enhance the oral health of the public, the Oral Health Education Unit (OHEU) of the Department of Health (DH) has, over the years, implemented oral health promotion programmes targeted at different age groups and disseminated oral health information through different channels.
At present, the Government focuses its efforts on providing emergency dental services for the public. The DH provides free emergency dental services (generally referred to as General Public Sessions) through its 11 government dental clinics. In addition, specialist oral maxillofacial surgery and dental treatment are provided by the Oral Maxillofacial Surgery and Dental Units (OMS&DUs) of the DH in seven public hospitals for the referred hospital in-patients, patients with special oral health care needs and dental emergency. The specialist dental care services in OMS&DUs are provided through referral. Members of the public in need of these services can be referred through hospitals and out-patient clinics or centres under the Hospital Authority or any registered dentists or medical practitioners. The OMS&DUs will arrange appointments for them according to the urgency of their conditions. Patients with emergency needs, such as cases of dental trauma, will be provided with immediate consultation and treatment. As regards curative dental services, they are mainly provided by the private sector and non-governmental organizations (NGOs).
My reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:
(a) and (b)
The service sessions of the 11 government dental clinics with General Public Sessions and the maximum number of discs allocated per session are given in the Annex. Patients holding discs for a particular session will receive consultation during that session.
12012 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Dental services at General Public Sessions cover treatment of acute dental diseases, prescription for pain relief, treatment of oral abscess and teeth extraction. The dentists will also give professional advice with regard to the individual needs of patients. As regards the elderly people receiving the services, we do not have any statistics relating to the percentages of those involving pain relief and teeth extraction services.
As indicated above, the Government has been seeking to raise public awareness of oral hygiene and health for the development of proper oral health habits through promotion and education. The OHEU of the DH has been actively organizing territory-wide activities for various target groups. For example, the "Love Teeth Campaign" is an annual campaign launched since 2003 to promote oral hygiene among various sectors of the community and enhance the oral health of the public. The Government has been allocating resources primarily to promotion and preventive efforts and currently does not have any plan to expand the public dental services.
(c) Primary dental care services in Hong Kong are mainly provided by the private sector and NGOs. At present, there are about 2 060 registered dentists in the territory providing services for the public. Under the Elderly Health Care Voucher Pilot Scheme launched since 2009, elders aged 70 or above can make use of the vouchers for dental services provided by private dental clinics and dental clinics run by NGOs. As at mid-April 2013, a total of 372 dentists have participated in the Scheme. In response to calls from the community, starting from 1 January 2013, the Government has increased the annual voucher amount to $1,000.
Apart from the above, as most elderly people residing in residential care homes (RCHEs) or receiving services in day care centres (DEs) are physically weak, their frail conditions have made it difficult for them to receive dental care services at dental clinics. In the light of this, the Government launched the three-year "Pilot Project on Outreach Primary Dental Care Services for the Elderly in RCHEs and DEs" (Pilot Project) in collaboration with NGOs in April 2011 to provide outreach primary dental care and oral health care services LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12013
to these elders. The Pilot Project is expected to provide services for about 100 000 attendances.
The Community Care Fund (CCF) has also set aside $100 million for the "Elderly Dental Assistance Programme" to subsidize needy elders for dentures and other necessary dental services. The Programme was rolled out in September 2012 and is expected to run for about two years, benefiting about 9 680 elderly people.
As for elderly people with financial difficulties, currently, dental grants are given under the Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA) Scheme to recipients who are aged 60 or above, disabled or medically certified to be in ill-health. Eligible CSSA recipients can approach the 54 dental clinics designated by the Social Welfare Department (SWD) for dental examination and estimate of cost, and then choose to obtain the relevant dental service from either the designated dental clinics or any registered dentists at non-designated dental clinics. The grant will be paid to meet the cost charged by the non-designated clinic, the cost estimated by the designated clinic or the ceiling amount set by the SWD, whichever is the less.
We will continue our publicity and education efforts to improve the oral health of the public.
Annex
Dental Services at General Public Sessions Provided by the 11 Government Dental Clinics under the DH
Dental clinics with Maximum number of discs Service sessions General Public Sessions allocated per session Lee Kee Government Monday (AM) 84 Dental Clinic Thursday (AM) 42 Kwun Tong Jockey Club Wednesday (AM) 84 Dental Clinic Kennedy Town Monday (AM) 84 12014 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Dental clinics with Maximum number of discs Service sessions General Public Sessions allocated per session Community Complex Friday (AM) 84 Dental Clinic Fanling Health Centre Tuesday (AM) 50 Dental Clinic Mona Fong Dental Clinic Thursday (PM) 42 Tai Po Wong Siu Ching Thursday (AM) 42 Dental Clinic Tuesday (AM) 84 Tsuen Wan Dental Clinic Friday (AM) 84 Yan Oi Dental Clinic Wednesday (AM) 42 Yuen Long Jockey Club Tuesday (AM) 42 Dental Clinic Friday (AM) 42 Tai O Dental Clinic 2nd Thursday of each 32 month (AM) Cheung Chau Dental 1st Friday of each month 32 Clinic (AM)
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not replied to part (c) of the main question. The Secretary has only explained that the Government's policy puts emphasis on promotion and education, and I would like to ask whether he knows that as part (c) of the main question has mentioned, there are currently over 200 000 non-institutionalized elderly people in Hong Kong. They are neither CSSA recipients nor inmates of residential care homes, and they do not meet the eligibility criteria of the CCF, and surveys found that these 200 000-odd low-income elderly have only 17 teeth or less left (people generally have 32 teeth). I wish to ask the Secretary whether there are ways to practically help these people. I am not asking him to tell us about the three situations mentioned in the main reply because those situations simply do not apply to these people. Is there any way for the Secretary to help these elderly people?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, we understand that the CCF is currently focusing on the provision of services for some non-institutionalized elderly people who are not CSSA recipients but for the time being, elderly people who are eligible for the subsidies are limited to those LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12015 currently receiving home care services of the SWD. As the programme has just started, so far the number of elderly people receiving subsidies is not large. On the one hand, we expect that when the programme can operate more smoothly, more and more elderly will receive subsidies and on the other, the CCF will, from time to time ……
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): The Secretary is only repeating his main reply. My question is: A group of elderly people are neglected after receiving tooth extraction services in government dental clinics, and as they cannot benefit from the CCF and are neither institutionalized nor recipients of CSSA, how will the Secretary help them? President, the Secretary has not answered this.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not finished. Please let him finish his reply first.
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I was actually going to deal with it. Dr LEE's question pointed out that some elderly people do not come under the several groups that I mentioned earlier on, while the coverage of the CCF is, at present, rather narrow. Having said that, a working group has been set up under the CCF to review the problem from time to time, in order to ascertain whether it is possible to expand the coverage gradually, thereby enabling the several groups of elderly people mentioned by Dr LEE to access these subsidized services in future.
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, a toothache is much worse than a serious illness, and this is particularly the case with the elderly. In fact, many people are reluctant to see a dentist, and some people are even terrified by the equipment used by dentists. Therefore, it is unlikely for this service to be abused. The original intention of the CCF is to make up for the inadequacy of government dental services, and the target is to use $100 million to help close to 10 000 elderly people. But four or five months have passed, and assistance has been provided to only a few hundred elderly, which falls far short of the target. Have the authorities considered relaxing the vetting procedures and requirements, such as considering the provision of dental vouchers, so that the 12016 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 elderly will not use these services when they do not have such needs but can receive dental services when necessary?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, just as I said in reply to the second question of Dr Joseph LEE earlier on, a working group has been set up under the CCF to consistently review the Elderly Dental Assistance Programme in the hope that when the programme can operate more smoothly, more elderly people can benefit from it and a review can also be conducted to ascertain whether the eligibility criteria can be relaxed to enable more elderly to receive subsidies. As regards the proposal of dental vouchers, the existing elderly healthcare vouchers also allow the elderly to use part of the voucher amount on dental services, and starting from 1 January this year, the annual voucher amount has been increased from $500 to $1,000. There is also another detail, that is, the elderly are allowed to accumulate the amount of their healthcare vouchers up to $3,000. In other words, the elderly can make use of the healthcare vouchers to receive the required dental services. However, we consider it inflexible to dedicate a certain amount for dental services.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEUNG, what is your point?
DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): With due respect, I think the Secretary is very cunning, because the increased amount of the healthcare vouchers does not particularly target dental services. For this reason, I hope that the Secretary will consider providing vouchers for dental services separately.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEUNG, no debate shall arise during Question Time. The Secretary has already given a reply clearly.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, I think the Secretary has failed to answer not only part (c) of Dr Joseph LEE's main question but even part (b) of it. The title of this oral question is "Dental services for elderly", and the main question asked the Bureau whether it will increase the provision of public dental services for the elderly. I think the President should recall that we had spoken a lot on "toothless tiger" during our deliberations on the amendments LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12017 to the Appropriation Bill. Do you see how the Secretary gave a reply this time around? He pointed out right in the first sentence that the Government takes forward the policy on dental care through promotion and education. Then, in his main reply to part (b) of the question, he said, "The Government has been allocating resources primarily to promotion and preventive efforts". My goodness! Those elderly ladies are well in their old age, and what is the point of talking about promotion and prevention? Their teeth have either decayed or fallen out but the Secretary is still talking about ways of prevention and teaching them how they should brush their teeth.
In part (b) of the main question Dr Joseph LEE asked "whether the authorities have considered providing additional quotas of dental services specifically for the elderly people; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that". Now that the Secretary's reply is obviously "No", and what are the reasons? Secretary, is it because of a lack of funds, a lack of dentists, a lack of space for building hospitals or a lack of sincerity?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, as I made it clear in the latter part of my earlier replies to parts (a) and (b) of the main question, and as I think Mr CHAN understands it correctly, we do not have any plan to expand the public dental services for the time being. Mr CHAN asked about the ultimate reason, and I wish to tell Members plainly that the resources and manpower involved in a direct expansion of public dental services are currently beyond our affordability. So, the overall strategy is firstly, we attach importance to preventive work; secondly, we very much agree that insofar as elderly services are concerned, especially when we do not have sufficient resources to expand public dental services, our strategy should focus on the provision of services targeting the elderly, and this is why there are those situations that I mentioned in the main reply earlier: Firstly, we will target elderly people who are institutionalized; and secondly, regarding the arrangements for non-institutionalized elderly people who are not CSSA recipients and about whom many people have asked, they will be provided with assistance by the CCF.
As regards the services provided by the CCF, I agree with Members that there are not many elderly people receiving these services. There are two reasons: First, the services are target-specific, which means that the elderly must meet certain requirements. The current requirement is that the elderly must be 12018 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 recipients of home care services under the SWD. Why do we target this group of elderly people? Because these elderly have already passed the means test and are in greater need of the services because of their poorer mobility. Therefore, these elderly people are first incorporated into the programme. We hope that when the services operate more smoothly in future, there will be more elderly people receiving these services.
Furthermore, as I have pointed out, the working group under the CCF will look into the feasibility of relaxing the eligibility criteria for the subsidies, with a view to enabling more elderly people to receive services.
MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Government's policies, especially its policies on dental care for the elderly, are obviously inadequate and outdated. In fact, Hong Kong has a treasure but the Government has never used it for the past decade or two. It is the Prince Philip Dental Hospital, which provides training to many dentists and dental ancillary personnel every year. All that the Government has to do is to provide the hospital with additional resources for operating dental services for the elderly and this will help the Government implement the relevant policies.
My supplementary question is very simple. Will the Government consider channelling resources to the Prince Philip Dental Hospital for it to provide dental services for the elderly?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, thanks to Mr LEUNG for his views. Put it simply and plainly, we will definitely take it into consideration, but it is not easy to actually implement it. I did personally visit the Prince Philip Dental Hospital after taking office and I had the opportunity to explore this issue with its management team. I hope that through continued discussion with the management of the Prince Philip Dental Hospital, we can eventually come up with a way to optimize the utilization of the resources of this hospital, with a view to creating more room for providing services to elderly people in need.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12019
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, as many colleagues have mentioned earlier, it is impossible to increase the provision of general out-patient services and these services already cannot meet the demand, whereas dental services at General Public Sessions only provide tooth extraction service but not tooth-filling or other services. We must know that to the elderly people, a fallen tooth is a permanent loss. Even though the Secretary pointed out earlier that the CCF also provides these services, we have clearly seen that there is a group of elderly people in the community who are still unable to access these services.
As the Secretary has said earlier, the healthcare vouchers can help some elderly people access dental services. But as we all know, the annual voucher amount is only $1,000, and how many items of service can they receive? We understand that the provision of community-wide dental services requires an enormous input of resources but since the Government has the ability to provide $1,000-worth healthcare vouchers, can it further increase the amount of the vouchers, so that the elderly can use these vouchers to receive dental services, or can it directly provide dental vouchers to the elderly?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, thanks to Miss MAK for her supplementary question. I have already stated our position on the provision of dental vouchers separately. The healthcare vouchers currently provided for the elderly cover a diversity of primary and preventive services, which include dental services. So, it would be inflexible if we particularly set aside an amount for dental services. As regards the question of whether we will comprehensively review the Elderly Health Care Vouchers Scheme and make improvements, this is actually what we have been doing. We have increased the amount of elderly healthcare vouchers from $500 to $1,000 this year, and we have clearly stated that after this financial year, that is, starting from the next financial year, elderly healthcare vouchers will be converted from a pilot project into a recurrent programme. Our plan is that after the regularization and review of the healthcare voucher scheme, we may possibly introduce some improvement measures.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): President, in part (c) of the main reply the Government pointed out that "primary dental care services in Hong Kong are mainly provided by the private sector and NGOs", and the Secretary also explained earlier that dental services are not incorporated into the public 12020 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 healthcare sector because the resources involved are too excessive and too broad.
I have this question for the Secretary. The recurrent expenditure on healthcare services is now $50 billion, and in order to incorporate community-wide dental services into the public healthcare sector, how much more will be required in addition to this $50 billion per annum? If we incorporate only elderly people aged above 65 but not all Hong Kong people into the public healthcare sector, what is the amount to be incurred? Can the Secretary provide the figures to give us some ideas about how enormous it is when he said that enormous resources will be required?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, thanks to Mr TIEN for his supplementary question. For the time being, I do not have the relevant figures for Members' reference. But money aside, I think another problem is dentists. In fact, since the introduction of the provision of dental services for the institutionalized elderly and the provision of services by the CCF, there have been views that manpower has become quite tight. So, resources aside, it is impossible for the existing manpower to cope with the provision of community-wide dental services in a short time.
MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): I thank the Secretary for his reply. Can he try to work out the amounts involved and provide them to us in future? I understand that he does not have these figures on hand now.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, can you provide such supplementary information?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): With regard to Mr TIEN's supplementary question, I can only say that we will try to conduct an assessment. But whether or not an accurate assessment can be made in a short time, I think that would be rather difficult.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12021
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 22 minutes on this question. Last oral question.
Water Supply for Hong Kong
6. MR DENNIS KWOK (in Cantonese): President, at present, 70% to 80% of the water consumption in Hong Kong is met by Dongjiang water imported to Hong Kong. It has been reported that, with rapid economic growth and urbanization on the Mainland, the demand for water resources in various provinces and cities is on the rise, and the water sources have been extensively and severely polluted, resulting in a gradual decrease in usable water sources. It has also been reported that the uncertainty in the supply of potable water on the Mainland may affect the supply of Dongjiang water, and it is therefore necessary for the Government to examine the development of new water sources early. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) given that the Government has reserved a site in Area 137 of Tseung Kwan O for the construction of a desalination plant, and it is anticipated that the annual output capacity of the desalination plant, upon its coming into operation in 2020, will be about 50 million cu m with the possibility of further increasing to 90 million cu m, whether, according to the Government's estimation, it will adjust the ratio of various sources of water supply by then; if it will, of the details, if not, the reasons for that; and
(b) as there are a certain number of water catchment facilities and stormwater storage tanks in Hong Kong (for example, the water catchment facility in Happy Valley which is under construction and the Hong Kong West Drainage Tunnel which was completed last year) for alleviating the flooding problem in the urban areas, whether the authorities will consider utilizing the rainwater collected by these water catchment facilities; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, the quality of Dongjiang water is closely monitored by Hong Kong's Water Supplies Department (WSD) and the Guangdong authorities. The current Dongjiang 12022 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Water Supply Agreement (the Agreement) signed with the Guangdong authorities provides that the quality of Dongjiang water supplied to Hong Kong should comply with the national standard set out for Type II waters in the Environmental Quality Standards for Surface Water (GB3838-2002). This is the highest standard applicable for water abstraction for human consumption. The Guangdong authorities have always attached great importance to protecting the quality of Dongjiang water. To ensure that the quality of Dongjiang water supplied to Hong Kong is in compliance with terms and conditions of the Agreement, the Guangdong authorities have proactively implemented various measures including the establishment of related laws and instructions as well as the implementation of a series of works projects. The regular monitoring results of the WSD have indicated that the quality of Dongjiang water has been maintained steady and complying with related standards. After suitable treatment and the rigorous disinfection processes at the WSD's water treatment works, the fresh water is in full compliance with the requirements set out in the Guidelines for Drinking Water (the Guidelines) of the World Health Organization (WHO) and is safe for consumption.
On developing new water sources, the Government has been working from time to time on its policies and measures for Hong Kong's fresh water supply. We have also implemented diversified water supply management measures under the Total Water Management Strategy (the Strategy) promulgated in 2008. They include developing seawater desalination and studying water reclamation, grey water re-use and rainwater harvesting.
My reply to the two parts of the question is as follows:
(a) The Planning and Investigation Study of Desalination Plant at Tseung Kwan O commenced in December 2012 and is expected to be completed by the end of 2014. The study scope covers detailed feasibility study, preliminary design, site investigation, impact assessments on environment, traffic and drainage, cost estimation, and cost-effectiveness analysis. Subject to the study findings, the Government will draw up a timetable for the construction of the desalination plant, which is expected to commence operation around 2020 at the earliest. The proposed desalination plant will have an output capacity of approximately 50 million cu m per annum, with provisions for future expansion to 90 million cu m per annum.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12023
The Strategy promulgated by the Government in 2008 has mapped out the strategy for a balanced supply and demand of water to support sustainable development in Hong Kong. The Strategy focuses on two major areas, namely water demand management and water supply management. On the management of water demand, the initiatives include stepping up public education, promoting water conservation, promoting the use of water-saving devices, enhancing water leakage control, and extending the use of seawater for toilet flushing. For the supply side management, the initiatives include strengthening the protection of existing water resources and exploring alternative sources of water supply. Other related measures include studying water reclamation, grey water re-use and rainwater harvesting while seawater desalination is only one of the options under consideration.
On the basis of a population of about 7.6 million in 2020 (as projected by the Census and Statistics Department in 2012) and accounting for the estimated savings achieved by various water demand management initiatives, the total fresh water demand will be about 990 million cu m in 2020. With an annual output capacity of 50 million cu m, the desalination plant will cover about 5% of the total demand in 2020. The amount of water supplied from other water sources should not exceed the current levels.
(b) To reduce flooding risk in urban areas, the Drainage Services Department (DSD) has adopted the strategy of flow interception and flood storage, involving the construction of drainage tunnels and underground flood storage tanks. In taking forward these infrastructure projects for flood prevention, we have also explored the possibility of re-using the rainwater collected in drainage tunnels and storage tanks.
When studying drainage tunnels, the DSD has examined various options for re-using the rainwater collected. However, all the options would require huge capital investments in building additional tunnels and/or pipe works, together with pumping or storage facilities. The result revealed that re-using rainwater collected in these drainage tunnels would not be cost-effective. As for flood storage tanks, for the purpose of effective flood prevention, 12024 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
the rainwater collected after a rainstorm in flood storage tanks must be discharged as soon as possible in order to prepare for the next rainstorm. Re-using the stored rainwater requires construction of additional storage tanks and associated water transfer facilities. As these facilities would only be used for several rainstorms a year, their cost-effectiveness is doubtful.
Moreover, rainwater running through developed areas would be contaminated by the filth on the surfaces of buildings and roads. The filth is the result of exhaust gases from vehicles travelling on roads, bird droppings on rooftops or animal excreta on the ground, and so on. To protect public health, the rainwater collected must be treated before it can be re-used safely. As such, the treatment cost is another factor to be considered.
All in all, re-using rainwater collected through developed areas in drainage system for non-potable uses is not cost-effective. Notwithstanding this, the Government keeps working on its policy and measures for drinking water supply, including harvesting rainwater for irrigation, toilet flushing and other non-potable uses. To date, the Architectural Services Department has installed rainwater harvesting and recycling systems for 33 schools and government facilities such as hospitals, government staff quarters, sports grounds, and so on. These systems have been installed and put into operation progressively. A review on their effectiveness is already underway.
MR DENNIS KWOK (in Cantonese): President, will the Secretary inform this Council of the amount of resources and capital the Government plans to invest in the desalination plant and the relevant technology, and of the country or region from which the technology will be procured?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, in this connection, we have not yet decided from which country the technology will be procured for the time being. We will commission a consultant to conduct a relatively comprehensive study. During my recent visit to Singapore, I LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12025 inspected the reverse osmosis technology there. We will carry out an open tender exercise only after the completion of the study.
MR DENNIS KWOK (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered my question on the amount of resources involved and the time frame for the completion of the study.
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, the authorities will commission a consultant to carry out the relevant study later this year, and it will be completed around 2014. According to the rough estimate at the present preliminary stage, the construction of a desalination plant will cost about $4-odd billion, yet for the specific figure, I think it will be easier to confirm when the consultant study is completed. We will pay close attention to the technological development for new breakthroughs.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, according to an article in the Oriental Daily of 12 May running the headline to the effect that "Our random tests shown Dongjiang water extremely poisonous", results of the random tests revealed that the iron content of the Dongjiang water at source exceeded the standard by 60% and the turbidity reached 233%. The spokesman of the WSD responded that the Guidelines of the WHO were not applicable to raw water. Secretary, does it mean that no matter how dirty, smelly, muddy and poisonous the Dongjing water at source is, it is not important and worries are unwarranted? If the water quality continues to deteriorate, what should be done? My supplementary question is: If the Dongjing water at source is severely and disastrously polluted, what contingency measures does the Government have?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, for a long period of time in the past, the Guangdong authorities have done a lot on the water quality of Dongjiang water supplied, ensuring and hoping that pollution at source will be minimized. In the transfer of water to Hong Kong, surveillance is carried out at various sections, and water is stored in a reservoir in Shenzhen. Meanwhile, we also carry out surveillance and treatment of various degrees at different sections throughout the transfer of water from Dongjiang to Hong Kong.
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President, the supplementary question raised by Mr CHAN Chi-chuen just now is about our measure in case of any anomaly in the quality of Dongjiang water. This is a question that warrants deep thoughts, one that we have to face. Currently, Dongjiang water accounts for 75% to 80% of the total water consumption in Hong Kong, and the exact percentage depends on the amount of rainwater collected locally in that year. According to my understanding, Guangdong Province attaches great importance to assuring the quality and quantity of water supplied to Hong Kong. On the other hand, Guangdong Province is preparing for a relevant study, hoping to initiate a project on "conveying West water to the East". It is hoped that by means of future works, Xijing water will be conveyed to Shenzhen, so that this water source will serve as a contingency water supply support for Hong Kong via Shenzhen.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is: Does it mean that no matter how dirty, smelly, muddy and poisonous the Dongjing water at source is fears and worries are unwarranted?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I can assure Members that, as I mentioned in the main reply earlier, the drinking water supplied to the public is in full compliance with the standard for drinking water set by the WHO.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): I do not expect my turn to come so soon.
The Secretary has been talking profusely about cost-effectiveness, but ironically, the fact is that we have been pouring HK$3-odd billion's worth Dongjiang water into the sea for several years in the past, which was the result of the excessive supply order placed and the failure to negotiate for a cut. However, the Secretary now says that the desalination project will cost $4-odd billion, as if it is very expensive.
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In the written question (Question 14) I put forth today, which is exactly about desalination ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please put forth your supplementary question on this oral question.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): Alright. In the Secretary's earlier reply to Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, he said fear was unwarranted and the authorities did not have a Plan B. Moreover, the Secretary said that the authorities had to deliberate over that, and the Mainland was working on this, only pending implementation. However, in the case of any major problem, what can be done? Regarding the Secretary's earlier reply to Mr Dennis Kwok's supplementary question on desalination, I have some questions. In 2007, the cost for desalination was $8.4 per cubic metre, and now it has increased to $12 per cubic metre. Inflation is naturally one of the reasons for the sharp increase in cost ……
PRESIDENT (In Cantonese): Please come to your supplementary question.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): …… yet another concern is that 20% of the cost of desalination comes from water distribution and customer services. May I ask the Secretary to explain clearly the definition of water distribution and customer services, and why these expenditure items will account for such a significant percentage in the cost of desalination?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, in the past few years, there was no incident of Dongjiang water supplied to Hong Kong eventually being discharged to the sea. Members can rest assured about this. As for the supply of fresh water, water treated by the desalination plant has to be distributed, so in calculating the cost of desalination, the authorities should at the same time factor into it the cost for laying mains and their repairs and maintenance, and so on. In respect of water supplied through the WSD for use by the public, the WSD has to provide a series of services to the public if they have any complaint or request.
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MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. There are existing water mains, and they should not be counted in the desalination in future ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms MO, please repeat your supplementary question. What is your supplementary question?
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): What is the definition of water distribution and customer services, and why will such items account for nearly 20% of the desalination cost per cubic metre?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Are you posing the present supplementary question according to the main reply provided by the Secretary in response to this main question, or are you quoting the Secretary's reply to your written question?
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): The Secretary has already given his answer, but still, I have to put forth this question, for he has also responded to Mr Dennis Kwok's question about desalination.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You are quoting from the Secretary's reply to your written question just now, am I correct?
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): Yes.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, this supplementary question from Ms MO is related to the present oral question. Mr Dennis Kwok has also asked about the cost of desalination earlier. Ms MO is now asking why customer services account for such a significant percentage of 20% of the cost. Secretary, please.
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SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, when water is distributed to the public for consumption, not only water mains have to be laid, it also involves electricity cost for the distribution. In the cost of desalination, about half of it is the operating cost of the desalination plant, of which half is expenditure on electricity. Since a lot of machinery is involved, the depreciation will account for 38% of the cost. As for the expenditure on distribution services, customer services and water transfer, and so on, they account for around 20%.
In the previous reply provided to Members in 2007, the authorities had only taken into account the inflation factor but not the cost of water distribution. In respect of cost, I hope Members will understand that the present cost of $12 per cubic metre has not taken into account the land premium, so it is not the full cost. Therefore, in considering the cost-effectiveness of desalination, we are obliged to make careful examination.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): President, he is playing with figures ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which part of your supplementary question has not been answered by the Secretary?
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): He has not answered my supplementary question. The expenditure on electricity and depreciation of machinery should have been included under the part on operations and maintenance ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You need only repeat your supplementary question.
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): My supplementary question remains the same: Why 20% of the desalination cost of $12 per cubic metre is spent on water distribution and customer services? He replied me that the figure includes electricity expenditure and depreciation, yet 38% of it has already been included ……
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You question is very clear. Secretary, the Member asked why the expenditure on water distribution and customer services accounts for up to 20% of the cost.
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, it has to be as high as 20%. Regarding the electricity expenditure mentioned by Ms MO earlier, the first sum of electricity expenditure is for the operation of the desalination plant, and the other sum is for electricity used for distributing fresh water out of the plant. The process of distributing fresh water to different districts and pumping stations requires electricity, and this is the expenditure incurred in customer service and water distribution mentioned by me earlier.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, the focus of the media today is the student who said he had not finished his homework when he was interviewed on his way to school during the black rainstorm warning. I think the Secretary has not prepared his homework well in his reply to Mr Dennis Kwok's question. In part (a) of Mr Dennis Kwok's main question, he asked whether the Government would adjust the ratio of various sources of water supply by 2020, but the Secretary stated in the last sentence of the third paragraph of part (a) of the main reply that, "the amount of water supplied from other water sources should not exceed the current levels". Such an answer is comparable to giving no answer at all, or he meant to say that there was little room for adjustment. However, the Secretary said on the other hand that the Government had been working from time to time on the policies for Hong Kong fresh water supply, and that it would explore alternative sources of water supply, while seawater desalination was only one of the options.
Actually, studies and surveys should be conducted with a direction. May I ask the Secretary why the ratio of other sources of water supply will not be increased? Why should it be maintained at a level not exceeding the current level? Moreover, since it was confirmed in the study report on seawater desalination in 2007 that Hong Kong had the potential for large-scale seawater desalination, may I ask the Secretary other than the designated site in Tseung Kwan O, whether other sites will be reserved for the construction of desalination plant with a view to increasing the percentage of water source from seawater desalination, so that we can reduce the amount of Dongjiang water we have to purchase which is contaminated and enormously expensive?
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SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, I have stated clearly in the main reply that Hong Kong population will increase from the present 7.1-odd million to 7.9 million in 2020, and water demand will thus increase. Where do we get the water supply to cope with the increase in water demand? If the amount of water supplied by other sources of water supply is not increased, seawater desalination has to be carried out. The output capacity of the desalination plant roughly ranges from 50 million cu m to 90 million cu m, accounting for about 5% to 9% of the current water consumption. Hence, overall, we are working specifically for our needs in the future. However, this cannot be achieved overnight, so the proposal on exploring more different sources of water supply and reducing the supply of Dongjiang water at the present stage is impractical.
At present, 70% to 80% of the water demand is met by Dongiang water, which is the lowest in cost. Members should bear in mind the expensive cost of seawater desalination and its impact on the environment. Besides, seawater desalination cannot be carried out in any place. From where should the seawater be taken? It must come from a clean water source. What impact will the water discharged have on marine ecology? We have to give careful consideration to a host of factors. Having said that, I am not saying we will not carry out seawater desalination. We definitely consider this a worthy direction for exploration. However, based on the cost calculated according to the existing technology, we must consider the issue in a progressive manner. After we have finished the studies, we will take the first step. When we have gained the support of Members for setting up the Tseung Kwan O treatment works, we will have gained more experience. By then, if there is any breakthrough in technology, bringing enhanced cost-effectiveness, and if Members support it, we will do more. Therefore, we must do it step by step.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): The reply of the Secretary is unsatisfactory, for ……
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which part of your supplementary question has not been answered by the Secretary?
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not given a reply in respect of the issue of direction. Should such work be taken forward in such a slow and progressive manner? I think that 5% is too small. The site development and reclamation mentioned by the Secretary will only be ready in 2020, the entire artificial island ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr FAN, please stop. I have reminded Members repeatedly that no debate should be opened during Question Time. If you consider that the Secretary has not answered your supplementary question, please repeat it briefly. But if you are dissatisfied with the Secretary's reply, please follow up the issue on other occasions and do not express your views here.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): Alright, I am asking the Secretary about the ratio of water sources, for it involves ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat the part you consider not answered by the Secretary.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): Alright, I will repeat it, President, I will repeat it now. Since we are troubled by the contamination and expensive price of Dongjiang water, though the Secretary does not think so, will the Secretary examine in future whether we must purchase Dongjiang water at a fixed price or fixed amount instead of at a price charged according to our actual consumption?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr FAN, this is not the supplementary question you raised earlier. In fact, the Secretary has already answered it.
We have spent nearly 24 minutes on this question. Oral questions end here.
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WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Provision of a Cooling-off Period Clause in Consumer Contracts
7. MS STARRY LEE (in Chinese): President, in 2010, the Government published a consultation paper on combating unfair trade practices, in which the proposal of providing for mandatory cooling-off periods was included. However, the Government ultimately did not incorporate the proposal into the Trade Descriptions (Unfair Trade Practices) (Amendment) Bill 2012 (the Bill) due to the worries expressed by the business sector. During the Second Reading debate on the Bill, the Secretary for Commerce and Economic Development (the Secretary) indicated that he would explore and study the arrangement of a cooling-off period with various stakeholders in greater detail and focus. The Bill was passed by this Council in July last year. On the other hand, the Consumer Council (CC) proposed in April last year that the relevant industries should adopt a consumer contract of a standard format (standard contract) containing a cooling-off period clause to protect the rights and interests of consumers. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it knows the number of complaints involving the pre-payment mode of consumption received by the CC in the past three years, the total amount of money involved and follow-up results, together with a breakdown by industry (including beauty and fitness industries);
(b) whether the Government has reopened discussions on the cooling-off period with the relevant industries; if it has, of the details; if not, the plan and timetable;
(c) whether there are specific measures in place to encourage operators of slimming, beauty and yoga centres to adopt the standard contract proposed by the CC; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; whether it knows how many business operators have adopted the standard contract containing a cooling-off period clause; and
(d) whether it will consider promoting the adoption of the standard contract containing a cooling-off period clause among some industries first, so as to enhance protection for consumers; whether 12034 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
the Secretary has any plan to legislate on the provision of mandatory cooling-off periods within his term of office; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, the Trade Descriptions (Unfair Trade Practices) (Amendment) Ordinance 2012 (the Amendment Ordinance) was enacted by the Legislative Council in July 2012. The Amendment Ordinance extends the coverage of the Trade Descriptions Ordinance so as to prohibit some commonly seen unfair trade practices in the market, including false trade descriptions of services, misleading omissions, aggressive commercial practices, bait-and-switch, bait advertising and wrongly accepting payment. Convicted traders may be liable to a maximum penalty of imprisonment for five years and a fine of $500,000. The Administration's plan is to implement the Amendment Ordinance within this year.
Meanwhile, the Consumer Council (the Council) published the Report on Unfair Terms in Standard Form Consumer Contracts (the Report) in April 2012, the purpose of which was to encourage and assist traders to avoid using unfair terms. Taking the beauty services sector for illustration purposes, the Report provided a set of guidelines on drafting standard form consumer contracts and a sample contract for voluntary adoption by the trade. The Administration welcomes the Report and hopes that the trade will take reference from the recommendations of the Report when drawing up standard form consumer contracts.
My reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:
(a) The table below sets out the relevant complaint statistics in the past three years of five industries which are more frequently involved in pre-payment mode of consumption. As regards complaints about other industries, the Council does not keep a breakdown of complaints relating to the pre-payment mode of consumption. Regarding the result of follow-up actions, the Council has mediated successfully in around 75% of its cases on average.
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Number of complaint cases involving pre-payment mode of consumption in five industries (bracketed figures denote the amount of money involved) Beauty and Wedding Fitness and yoga Travel club Telecommunications Year slimming planning centres membership services services services 2010 568 775 74 6 476 15 ($11,963,511) ($9,326,528) ($2,491,019) ($7,848,491) ($99,551) 2011 606 637 55 5 251 37 ($16,516,993) ($9,716,523) ($3,496,868) ($5,504,065) ($285,884) 2012 695 350 79 5 196 5 ($53,401,224) ($6,291,096) ($4,741,329) ($5,262,879) ($68,200) 2013 165 89 8 1 227 7 (First ($2,851,162) ($1,454,395) ($538,898) ($1,849,825) ($105,148) Quarter)
(b), (c) and (d)
The sample standard contract recommended by the Report is for voluntary adoption by the trade. In this respect, the Council has been paying attention to the standard contracts used by slimming, beauty services and yoga centres, and has maintained communication with them. For example, earlier this year, the Council studied the standard contracts of a few relatively large-scale beauty and slimming services companies as well as telecommunications/ broadcasting companies. It has then written to these companies inviting them to amend the terms of their standard contracts with reference to the drafting guidelines and the sample contract in the Report. The Council will continue to heed various standard contracts in the market. If any contract is found to contain unfair terms, the Council will invite the trader concerned to refer to the Report and amend the contract. The Council does not maintain statistics on the number of traders having included terms on a cooling-off period in their standard contracts.
During the public consultation on the legislative proposals to combat unfair trade practices from 2010 to 2011, the community widely discussed the issue of cooling-off period, on which we had 12036 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
communicated with different stakeholders. On the one hand, there are aspirations for a cooling-off period from general consumers. On the other hand, the implementation of a cooling-off period involves certain non-straightforward and controversial fundamental issues. For example, whether a cooling-off period should generally apply to all goods and services; how small-value transactions should be handled; whether consumers may consume the goods or services concerned during the cooling-off period; and whether consumers having consumed part of the goods or services concerned during the cooling-off period should be required to pay for the consumed part if they request to cancel the transactions and how the payment should be computed. Furthermore, some practical issues should also be considered, including how consumers should exercise their right to cancel contracts, how refunds should be made, and so on. Some traders consider that a cooling-off period will increase the costs of honest traders but will have no substantial deterrent effect on unscrupulous ones.
Introducing a cooling-off period will change transaction modes and have significant implications on both traders and consumers. Detailed consideration is therefore warranted. In fact, the new offences under the Amendment Ordinance, such as aggressive commercial practices, wrongly accepting payment, bait-and-switch and misleading omissions, will combat unfair trade practices at source to enhance consumer protection. For the pre-payment mode of consumption, if traders at the time of accepting consumers' payment intend not to supply the goods or services concerned, or there are no reasonable grounds for believing that the traders will be able to supply the goods or services concerned within a reasonable period, they may commit the offence of wrongly accepting payment.
Malpractices in Works Under Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme and Mandatory Window Inspection Scheme
8. MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Chinese): President, since 30 June last year, the authorities have fully implemented the Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme (MBIS) and Mandatory Window Inspection Scheme (MWIS) (which are applicable to buildings aged 30 years or above and buildings aged 10 years or LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12037 above respectively), and have been providing subsidies and technical support to the owners of dilapidated buildings through "Operation Building Bright" launched by the Urban Renewal Authority (URA) and Hong Kong Housing Society (HKHS). Yet, quite a number of members of the local communities have relayed to me recently that the enormous commercial interests arising from mandatory building inspection, window inspection and the associated maintenance and renovation works (the relevant works) have resulted in some people profiteering through manipulation of the election and operation of owners' corporations (OCs), but the Home Affairs Department (HAD), which is responsible for assisting the operation of OCs, takes no heed of the situation. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of cases involving disputes in the operation and election of OCs received by the HAD since 30 June last year, as well as the types of such disputes; whether the HAD has initiated any mediation; if it has, of the number of mediated cases; if not, the reasons for that;
(b) of the respective numbers of complaints or reports involving tender exercises for the relevant works received by the police and the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) since 30 June last year, as well as the respective numbers of cases in which prosecutions have been instituted against the relevant persons; and
(c) whether the HAD, the ICAC as well as the URA and the HKHS, responsible for implementing "Operation Building Bright", have put in place comprehensive monitoring systems to prevent law-breakers from profiteering in the relevant works through manipulating the elections of OCs; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, building management is the responsibility of property owners. To ensure good and proper management of the building, active participation of owners in the work of building management is essential. The Administration also supports the owners through multi-pronged measures to encourage and assist them to form OCs in accordance with the Building Management Ordinance (BMO) (Cap. 344). The OC possesses an independent status and the requisite powers of a corporate body. 12038 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Under the BMO, an OC is empowered to act on behalf of the owners to handle matters relating to building management, while owners are also empowered to monitor the operation of the OC and its Management Committee (MC). According to the BMO, it is the duty of an OC to elect and appoint its MC. Owners should proactively participate in the election to elect suitable persons to carry out the functions of the OC.
The HAD and its District Offices (DOs) have been making efforts in offering advice and support to OCs in order to facilitate owners to perform building management duties in compliance with the BMO. However, the HAD is in no position to take up the responsibilities of monitoring the OCs or managing the buildings on behalf of the owners. Furthermore, the HAD and its staff are not empowered by the BMO to adjudicate on such matters as OC elections and enforcement of the BMO or provisions in the deed of mutual covenant. According to the BMO, the jurisdiction over building management matters vested in the Lands Tribunal.
My reply to Mr TAM's question is as follows:
(a) During 1 July 2012 to 31 March 2013, the HAD received a total of 458 cases which involved disputes over OCs' operations and elections, the breakdown of which is as follows:
Type of Disputes Number of Cases Building Maintenance 142 Financial Management 114 Performance of Management Companies/the 163 MCs of the OCs Building Security Management 10 MCs' Election 29
The DOs will try their very best to render assistance to OCs and owners to resolve disputes in a fair and impartial manner. Efforts will be made to arrange negotiation meetings for the parties in dispute. Where necessary, they will also be advised to meet experts (including lawyers, accountants and surveyors) of the Panel of Advisors on Building Management Disputes, a body specially set up by the HAD to assist in resolving building management disputes by LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12039
rendering authoritative and impartial advice. If both sides agree, the DOs shall refer them to a voluntary professional mediation service scheme launched by the Hong Kong Mediation Council and the Hong Kong Mediation Centre for free professional mediation services.
In case the disputes remain unresolved, the DOs shall suggest the OCs or the owners concerned to seek legal advice and convene a general OC meeting at the request of not less than 5% of the owners under the BMO. An alternative is to refer such unresolved disputes to the Lands Tribunal for adjudication.
(b) The police and the ICAC indicated that they did not maintain any relevant information on complaints or reports involving tender exercises for the relevant works. Nevertheless, from 30 June 2012 to 30 April 2013, the ICAC received a total of 282 corruption complaints involving building maintenance and renovation projects. No prosecution has been made so far.
(c) As mentioned above, an OC is an independent body corporate and its MC is elected in accordance with the procedures stipulated under the BMO. Owners who are of the view that the OC election is in contravention of the BMO may file their case to the Lands Tribunal for adjudication. OCs or owners may also report to the police cases suspected of involving criminal conduct.
The Development Bureau, which is responsible for the Operation Building Bright (OBB), the MBIS and the MWIS, indicated that since the OBB was launched in May 2009, the HKHS, the URA and the Buildings Department (BD) have been working closely with the ICAC, and have issued the "Operation Building Bright Maintenance Guidelines" for reference by OCs, consultants and contractors. The Guidelines stipulate the requirements and procedures for the recruitment, selection and management of consultants and contractors, anti-bribery and anti-collusion practices as well as the details on the various roles and responsibilities of different parties involved in OBB maintenance works. The Guidelines also require the Authorized Persons and their consultancy company to sign undertakings against malpractices including tender rigging. The 12040 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
ICAC, in collaboration with the HKHS and the URA, organized 18 talks for OCs, maintenance consultants and contractors and reached out to 587 OCs and 161 consultants/contractors to enhance their understanding of the anti-bribery legislation, the corruption risks pertaining to building maintenance projects, anti-corruption measures and ways to implement integrity building management.
Regarding the MBIS and the MWIS, the Development Bureau indicated that the BD had issued a Practice Note providing advice on the best practices on tendering procedures for the appointment of Registered Inspectors (RIs), Qualified Persons and Registered Contractors under the two Schemes. The HKHS and the URA will also provide support to owners taking part in the Schemes, including guidance on anti-bribery and anti-rigging practices in tendering, such as requiring RIs and contractors to sign an undertaking to comply with probity and anti-tender rigging clauses when submitting a tender, and to submit a declaration on compliance with ethical commitment clauses upon confirmation of appointment. The BD, the URA and the HKHS will continuously remind building owners and OCs to comply with the best practices on tendering procedures and promote anti-bribery measures through publicity and public education efforts.
In addition, between 2008 and 2010, the ICAC implemented a three-year integrity and quality building management programme, covering areas of building management, financial management and daily operation, and launched a series of publicity and educational materials (for example, practical toolkits, training videos, thematic webpages and television spot series and APIs) with a view to enhancing the prevention and integrity management capabilities of OCs. The ICAC also organized a series of publicity and educational activities in collaboration with 18 Districts Councils. Messages of integrity and quality building management were promoted through the mass media, roving exhibitions, workshops and publicity activities jointly organized with various district organizations. The ICAC will also fine-tune the Building Management Toolkit having regard to the experience gained in the management of the OBB and explore ways with relevant LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12041
stakeholders to enhance transparency of market information on renovation rates.
The ICAC also indicated that if corruption complaints were received, it would deploy resources in a flexible manner to investigate in accordance with the established procedures and having regard to the seriousness of the relevant complaints.
Language Fund
9. MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Chinese): President, the Language Fund (the Fund) has all along been providing financial support for projects and activities aimed at promoting "bi-literacy and tri-lingualism" (bi-literacy referring to written Chinese and English, and tri-lingualism referring to spoken Chinese (Cantonese), English and Putonghua) among Hong Kong people, including the English Enhancement Scheme and the Refined English Enhancement Scheme (the two Schemes) aiming at building up the capacity of schools for raising students' English proficiency. In addition, the Financial Secretary has proposed in this year's Budget that $5 billion be injected into the Fund. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the Fund's balance at present;
(b) of the specific uses of and the plans to use the $5 billion proposed to be injected into the Fund;
(c) whether it knows among the schools which were approved each year to participate in the two Schemes since they were launched, the respective numbers of those schools which, up to the present, (i) have not yet launched, (ii) are still implementing, and (iii) have already completed the relevant projects;
(d) whether it knows the total number of schools participating in the two Schemes which had used the relevant funding to employ English language teachers or English language teaching assistants in the 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 school years, and the respective numbers of those being employed; and
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(e) whether it has assessed the effectiveness of the two Schemes in supporting school-based teaching of the English language in schools; if it has, of the assessment results; whether the authorities will consider extending the implementation of the two Schemes; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that, and whether the authorities have formulated other policies whereby the English language teachers and teaching assistants employed under the two Schemes may continue to raise the English proficiency of students through other means after completion of the two Schemes?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President,
(a) As at 31 January 2013, the available balance of the Fund was $95 million.
(b) The Fund supports and funds various projects in enhancing the proficiency in Chinese (including Putonghua) and English of the people of Hong Kong. The proposed $5 billion injection is a seed funding which helps provide a stable stream of funding for the Fund to facilitate its longer term planning.
There is no intention to change the remit of the Fund. The Government will seek advice of the Standing Committee on Language Education and Research which comprises experienced principals and teachers, renowned language academics and private sector personalities on the use of the fund to support worthwhile initiatives and programmes. Activities supported by the fund in the past include researches and development projects on language education; school-based support to raise students' interests and confidence in language learning and cater for learners' diversity; enhancement of the professionalism of language teachers; and creation of a facilitating language learning environment, including building a closer partnership among relevant sectors.
(c) Both the English Enhancement Scheme (EES) and Refined English Enhancement Scheme (REES) under the Fund are time-limited projects with designated objectives. The former (that is, the EES), launched in 2006, is to strengthen the teaching and learning of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12043
English of secondary schools through strategic planning with a holistic school-based plan on capacity building of English teachers with a view to enhancing students' English proficiency. The REES launched in 2010 is primarily for supporting the implementation of the fine-tuned medium of instruction (MOI) arrangements. Schools can build on the foundation of EES to adjust and/or refocus relevant items of their plans as appropriate to put in place their school-based MOI arrangements.
Schools having taken into account their own situations and other factors including market capacity and adjustment could opt to start their projects under the EES in January 2007 the earliest and the last batch had also commenced their projects in July 2008. At present, 159 schools have completed their projects with the remaining 280 schools continuing their projects. As for the implementation of the REES, schools started their projects earliest in January 2011 and latest in September 2011. Six schools have completed their projects and the remaining 380 schools are still implementing their projects.
It is anticipated that about 230 schools will continue their projects into the 2013-2014 school year.
(d) A total of 440 teachers and 238 teaching assistants were employed under temporary contract terms by schools implementing the EES and REES in the 2011-2012 school year. In the 2012-2013 school year, the corresponding figures are 399 teachers and 220 teaching assistants. An estimated number of 150 teaching staff would be employed by the 230 schools continuing their projects into the 2013-2014 school year. The temporary teaching staff were/are mainly deployed to release experienced school teachers for devising and/or strengthening the school-based curriculum and measures including the planning for learning English across the curriculum with the collaboration between English and non-language subject teachers with a view to adopting the whole-school approach in providing students with more exposure to English. This enables schools to sustain the positive effects when the schemes are completed.
12044 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
(e) As mentioned in parts (c) and (d) above, the two Schemes aim at enhancing the professional capacity of teaching and learning English of individual schools. In evaluating their effectiveness, in addition to the requirements under the School Development and Accountability Framework, we also take into account circumstances of individual schools and recommendations of scholars and language experts at the professional dialogues with each participating school to draw up a performance contract setting out the outcome targets to be achieved within a specified timeframe to facilitate evaluation. In parallel, the Education Bureau conducts supervisory visits to each participating school to verify their performance. Upon completion of the schemes, we will conclude the evaluation findings.
Though the two Schemes are time-limited in nature, their purpose is that schools should continue to benefit from the sustainable effects upon lapse of the schemes, hence we have no plan to extend the two Schemes. In general, schools may absorb the teaching staff employed under the schemes concerned by filling the vacant teaching posts arising from staff wastage every year. Besides, schools may continue to employ the teaching staff concerned through flexible deployment of their resources.
Promoting Use of Liquefied Natural Gas Vehicles
10. MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Chinese): President, I have learnt that as the related technology has become increasingly mature in recent years, quite a number of neighbouring countries and regions have introduced liquefied natural gas (LNG) vehicles (for example, LNG buses) to their public transport systems one after another. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it has studied the energy efficiency of LNG vehicles and liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) vehicles in different countries and regions at present, and whether it has compared these two types of vehicles in terms of their levels of emissions, fuel efficiencies and prices, and so on; if it has, of the details of the study and results of the comparison; if not, the reasons for that; and
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(b) given that the Introducing Natural Gas/Liquefied Petroleum Gas Buses and Heavy Duty Vehicles in Hong Kong – Feasibility Study, which was conducted by the Government in 2007, had concluded that "the introduction of natural gas/LPG buses and heavy duty vehicles is not practical" because the difficulties associated with developing the infrastructure for an entirely new fuel outweighed the very small additional environmental benefits in reducing vehicle emissions and improving air quality to be brought about by the introduction of such vehicles, whether the Government will, in the light of the technological developments in recent years, consider afresh introducing LNG vehicles (for example, LNG taxis, public light buses and single-decked buses, and so on) to the public transport system in Hong Kong; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Chinese): President,
(a) and (b)
The Government completed a consultancy study on the feasibility of introducing natural gas/LPG heavy duty vehicles in Hong Kong in February 2009. The scope of the study includes the supply of natural gas/LPG in Hong Kong and elsewhere, emission performance of these vehicles, environmental benefits and safety risks. The Executive Summary of the consultancy study is uploaded on the Environmental Protection Department's webpage:
The study conducted at that time concluded that natural gas/LPG buses and heavy duty vehicles were not feasible in Hong Kong and the environmental benefits would reduce as the Government progressively tightens the emission standards of diesel vehicles. The consultant's major justifications include:
(i) Following the continuous upgrading of the emission standards for new diesel models in major vehicle production countries, 12046 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
the emission gap between new diesel vehicles and gas vehicles is narrowing.
(ii) The LPG used in Hong Kong is only suitable as fuel for light-duty vehicles. If LPG heavy duty vehicles (including buses, medium and heavy good vehicles) are to be introduced, we will have to provide another grade of LPG different from the current one and also separate filling facilities for this fuel.
(iii) Natural gas/LPG storage facilities must be kept at an acceptable separation distance from surrounding residential areas or other land users in order to reduce the risk. Since Hong Kong has a high density urban development, it is difficult to further identify sufficient suitable sites for setting up the required gaseous fuel infrastructure, including gaseous fuel storage depots and sufficient number of natural gas/LPG filling stations for these new gas vehicles.
Since the completion of the consultancy study, the natural gas/LPG safety standard requirements have not been changed. We consider that the conclusions of study are still valid.
Since June 2012, newly registered vehicles have to comply with Euro V vehicle emission standards. On the other hand, the Environment Bureau is now consulting the transport trades on the Chief Executive's proposal in this year's Policy Address on the phasing out of pre-Euro IV diesel commercial vehicles. Euro V heavy duty vehicles, whether fuelled by diesel, LPG or natural gas, are subject to the same emission limits. Hence, under the current requirement whereby newly registered vehicles shall meet the limits of Euro V emission standard, the environmental benefits of LPG/natural gas vehicles, as compared with new diesel vehicles, in reducing vehicle emissions are gradually reducing. Furthermore, with the growth in population and continuous development in Hong Kong, identifying suitable land to build the required filling infrastructure will become increasingly difficult.
As for light duty vehicles, we launched the LPG taxi and light bus grant schemes since 2000. The Government offered a grant to the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12047
concerned vehicle owners replace their diesel taxis and public light buses with LPG ones. Currently, over 99% of the taxis and over 60% of the public light buses are using LPG. LPG and natural gas are both clean fuels. Hence, there is no need to introduce natural gas taxis or light buses. As the existing LPG infrastructure is inadequate to support the expansion of the use of LPG to other vehicle classes, LPG is limited to taxis and light buses only.
Project to Revitalize Former Central Market
11. MR TONY TSE (in Chinese): President, the Urban Renewal Authority (URA) is rolling out a project themed "Central Oasis" to revitalize the former Central Market. URA had already awarded the comprehensive design consultancy contract for the project, but the project was subsequently frozen due to a judicial review case involving the Draft Central District Outline Zoning Plan (draft OZP). Upon conclusion of the case early this year, the Chief Executive in Council approved the draft OZP on 9 April and the project can thus be resumed. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council if it knows:
(a) the latest implementation timetable of the project and the time delayed when compared with the original timetable;
(b) whether URA has assessed the impacts of the delay mentioned in part (a) on the project (including its cost-effectiveness); if it has, of the assessment results; if not, the reasons for that, and whether it will conduct such an assessment;
(c) the counter-measures put in place by URA with regard to the various impacts mentioned in part (b), the specific contents of the various measures and the costs involved respectively; and
(d) whether URA has any plans to make good use of the former Central Market before the revitalization works commence; if it has, of the details and the expected benefits; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, in October 2009, the Government proposed to hand over the Central Market to the URA for 12048 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 conservation and revitalization. This will improve the air quality in the district and provide a precious leisure place in this busy city area. The revitalized Central Market will become an "urban oasis" for workers in the daytime and a new hang-out spot for locals and tourists in the evenings and on weekends.
In December 2009, the URA set up the Central Oasis Community Advisory Committee (COCAC), with members drawn from the Central and Western District Council and the professional and business sectors who had proven knowledge in the relevant fields to advise on the implementation of the revitalization scheme. The COCAC subsequently decided to initiate an extensive public engagement exercise to draw up proposals on the use and design of the revitalized Central Market building.
As the 80-year old Central Market is a Grade 3 historical building which ceased operation in 2003, there is a need for the URA to conduct preparatory work including a structural survey on the market building as well as a study on its character-defining elements. The relevant work is now complete.
My reply to the four-part question is as follows:
(a) The URA plans to carry out the revitalization works in two phases in order to meet the requirement that the second floor passageway of the market building, which links the mid-levels escalator with the harbourfront in Central, must remain open round the clock. According to the original plan, the URA would, upon completion of the public engagement exercise in mid-2011, submit a planning application to the Town Planning Board (TPB) in mid-2012 on the major additions and alterations proposed to the Central Market building. The plan at the time was to complete the Phase I works in 2015-2016 with the whole project to be completed by 2017-2018.
The rezoning of the Central Market from "Other Specified Uses" (OU) annotated "Bus Terminus, Open Space and Commercial Development" to "OU" annotated "Building with Historical and Architectural Interests Preserved for Commercial, Cultural and/or Community Uses" was incorporated in the draft OZP gazetted on 16 July 2010. As the approval of the subject OZP was delayed due to the judicial review and appeal proceedings since 2011, the URA LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12049
could not submit its planning application to the TPB in 2012 as scheduled.
When the subject legal action ended in early 2013, the Chief Executive in Council approved the draft OZP in April 2013. The URA promptly finalized the planning application for the former Central Market building for submission to the TPB by mid-2013.
Subject to the approval of the TPB, the first phase of the proposed works is expected to be completed by 2017-2018, while the whole project will be completed by 2019-2020, that is, two years later than the original plan. Apart from being affected by the legal action relating to the draft OZP, the original work schedule has also been slightly put back as there are complicated issues to be resolved in getting the novel design of the revitalized building comply with the existing building and other safety regulations.
(b) In 2009, the URA estimated that it would invest $500 million for the revitalization project. This cost estimate is expected to increase due to the delay. The URA will only be able to work out a more accurate estimate of the increase when the subject planning application is considered and approved by the TPB and the subsequent works plan approved. The delay of the revitalization of the former Central Market building has impacted on the project cost and the project completion date, thereby affecting the public at large.
(c) As the URA will pay in full the expenses of the Central Market revitalization project, there is no need to set aside government provision for the project delay. Upon the TPB's approval of URA's planning application, the departments concerned will make every effort to facilitate early implementation of the project.
(d) The Central Market building is a government property currently managed by the Lands Department (LandsD). From 2010 onwards, the URA has been renting part of the area along the second floor passageway of the building by way of short-term tenancy to carry out beautification works and to make available a temporary activity area known as the "Oasis Gallery". Over the past three years, the URA held some 80 exhibitions and activities at the "Oasis Gallery" 12050 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
in collaboration with local institutions, non-governmental organizations and arts groups. The URA has also collaborated with local artists to mount a huge curtain at the building with comics featuring life in Central to bring vibrancy to the building. The URA has pledged to continue organizing similar activities before the commencement of revitalization works.
As regards the remaining parts of the area along the second floor passageway, the LandsD has leased it out to eight commercial tenants for temporary operation on a monthly basis. Before the official handover of the market building to the URA, the LandsD will give timely notifications to the tenants to move out in accordance with the terms of the tenancy agreements.
Enforcement of Public Order Ordinance
12. DR KENNETH CHAN (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that on 8 May 2013, the police arrested a woman who participated in a public meeting on 1 July 2011 (that is, 22 months ago) and prosecuted her for the offences of "assisting in organizing and taking part in an unauthorized assembly" under the Public Order Ordinance (Cap. 245) (the Ordinance). As all the other prosecution cases relating to the same meeting had been concluded earlier, and that woman is currently a volunteer of the secretariat of the Occupy Central movement, some members of the public suspect that the police's arresting and prosecuting the woman was aimed at suppressing the movement. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of prosecutions instituted by the police under the Ordinance in the past five years, broken down by the duration between the arrest and the prosecution (set out in the table below);
Duration Number of cases (i) less than three months (ii) three months to less than six months (iii) six months to less than 12 months (iv) 12 months or more
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12051
(b) of the reasons and justifications for the police to prosecute the aforesaid woman after an elapsed time of 22 months;
(c) whether the aforesaid woman's identity as a volunteer of the secretariat of the Occupy Central movement has affected the police's decision and timing for arresting and prosecuting the woman; if not, of the justifications; and
(d) whether the authorities will consider conducting a comprehensive review of the Ordinance, including the law-enforcement process, to ensure that the Ordinance will not be used as a tool for suppressing political activities; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, Hong Kong residents enjoy the rights of assembly, procession and demonstration according to the Basic Law and other relevant laws. The police have always handled public meetings, processions and demonstration activities in a fair, just and impartial manner in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong. The enforcement policy of the police is to endeavour to strike a balance by facilitating all lawful and peaceful public meetings, demonstrations and processions on the one hand, and on the other hand, reducing the impact of such activities on other members of the public or road users, thereby ensuring public order and public safety.
When expressing their views, participants of public meetings, demonstrations or processions should, under the premise of observing the laws of Hong Kong, conduct such activities in a peaceful and orderly manner. Participants of public processions and demonstrations should not engage in any behaviour to the detriment of public order or any act of violence. In case the peace and public order are jeopardized, the police have to take decisive enforcement actions to restore public order and public safety.
Under the Ordinance, any public meeting or procession the attendance of which exceeds the limit prescribed in the Ordinance, that is, public meetings of more than 50 persons and public processions of more than 30 persons, shall give a notice to the Commissioner of Police (CP) not less than seven days prior to the intended event, and it can only be conducted if CP does not prohibit or object to 12052 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 it. The notification shall cover such basic information as the date of the public meeting or procession, time of commencement and duration, location or route, theme, as well as the estimated number of participants, and so on. CP may impose condition(s) on a notified public meeting or procession to ensure order of the event and overall public safety, and the corresponding condition(s) imposed will be stated explicitly in the "letter of no objection" issued to the organizers. Organizers may appeal to the statutory and independent Appeal Board on Public Meetings and Processions (the Appeal Board) if they consider CP's decision unreasonable. Chaired by a retired Judge, the Appeal Board, consisting of three other members selected in rotation from a panel of 15 members, can be convened at short notice upon receipt of an appeal application. The Court of Final Appeal pointed out in a judgment that Hong Kong's statutory requirement for notification is widespread in jurisdictions around the world. It also affirmed that such statutory requirement for notification is constitutional, and is required to enable the police to fulfil their duties by taking reasonable and appropriate measures, thereby facilitating lawful assemblies and demonstrations to take place in a peaceful manner.
My reply to the various parts of Dr CHAN's question is as follows:
(a) The police do not maintain such figures.
(b) and (c)
According to the police internal guidelines, Department of Justice (DoJ)'s prior advice will be sought if the police intend to press charges against any persons arrested in public order events. The police will also seek the DoJ's advice as to which legal provisions shall be invoked when pressing charges. The DoJ will make the prosecution decisions based on the Statement of Prosecution Policy and Practice and relevant laws, after examining the relevant evidence. All prosecution decisions are totally free from political, media or public pressure. In considering whether charges should be pressed in accordance with the Ordinance, the DoJ will adopt the same principles as those adopted when handling other criminal prosecution cases, that is, to consider whether there is sufficient evidence, and whether the public interest requires a prosecution to be pursued.
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A number of organizations conducted public meetings and processions on 1 July 2011. Some demonstrators gathered at the traffic lanes of Connaught Road Central that evening, seriously blocking up the traffic around Central. The police took actions at the small hours of 2 July 2011 after failure of repeated advice and warnings, and 93 demonstrators were arrested for occupying the above road access. The arrested persons were subsequently either released on bail or granted temporary release.
After considering the investigation information provided by the police, the DoJ instructed the police to press charges against nine persons among the arrested demonstrators for "assisting in organizing unauthorized assembly" and "taking part in unauthorized assembly" in late December 2011. The remaining 84 persons received written warning from the Director of Public Prosecutions. Upon the DoJ's above advice, the police have used the same approach, including by phone or paying visits to the addresses known by the police, to locate the nine persons in question since January 2012. The police successfully contacted eight among nine persons between January to May 2012 and invited them to police stations. They were subsequently arrested and prosecuted by the police.
The eight persons attended the hearing at the Kwun Tong Magistrates' Court on 24 and 25 September 2012. Among them, six persons pleaded guilty to a charge of "assisting in organizing unauthorized assembly" and a charge of "taking part in unauthorized assembly", whilst the remaining two persons were bound over by the Court.
The police had attempted to contact the remaining woman in question by phone for over 20 times since January 2012, and there were two occasions on which the police successfully contacted her in person and informed her of the arrest and prosecution decision. She was also required to go to the police station for completing the necessary procedures. The police had also paid 10-odd visits to a number of addresses in connection with the woman, relaying messages to her family members that the police were looking for her, as well as informing them of the way of contacting the police, in the 12054 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
hope that the woman would get in touch with the police. However, it turned out that the woman did not do so. Under the circumstances, the police arrested the woman in Central on 8 May 2013.
Hong Kong is a society under the rule of law, and the police have the responsibility to maintain law and order. The police will take enforcement action against any person who commits an offence in a fair, just and impartial manner, regardless of the person's identity, job or background. The police have been acting in accordance with the law, and there is absolutely no political consideration involved. The above arrest action by the police was entirely unrelated to the identity, job or background of the arrested person. As pointed out by police and the DoJ, the discussion on "Occupy Central" had not yet surfaced when the DoJ made the prosecution decision, therefore, the prosecution decision is absolutely not related to the issue. The police also did not know the woman's relation with the "Occupy Central" issue when she was arrested.
(d) As in other international cities, there are laws for the regulation of public meetings and processions to ensure public safety and public order in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. Such laws are particularly important to densely populated cities like Hong Kong, with the objective of maintaining an appropriate balance between the protection of personal freedom of expressions and the rights of peaceful assembly, and upholding social order and the overall interests of the community.
There are provisions under the Ordinance for handling such acts as disorder in public places and a breach of the peace. There are also notification and appeal mechanisms in relation to public activities as mentioned above. The Ordinance has been effective in that it has enabled the police to take reasonable and appropriate measures when discharging their duties, thereby facilitating peaceful conduct of lawful assemblies, processions and demonstrations. The Administration has no plan to amend such law.
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Combating Crimes of Indecent Assaults Occurred Within MTR Premises
13. DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that last year, the police received 197 reported cases of indecent assaults which occurred within MTR premises (indecent assaults in MTR), that is, an average of 16 cases per month. Among these cases, the youngest victim was only four years old. It has been learnt that these indecent assault cases mostly happened in overcrowded train compartments. Some pathological sex offenders even looked for their "preys" on the train platforms and then followed their targets into train compartments to exploit opportunities for sexually assaulting these targets. So, there are opinions requesting the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) to examine conducting a trial run for the provision of train compartments for women and children, especially during the morning and evening rush hours, so as to protect the safety of female passengers. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the trend of the reported cases of indecent assaults in MTR received by the police in the past three years, broken down by the gender of the victims;
(b) whether it knows if the MTRCL will consider conducting a trial run for the provision of train compartments for women and children; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(c) whether it knows what measures the MTRCL has taken to further combat crimes of indecent assaults in MTR, and whether the company will consider enhancing the closed-circuit television systems currently installed in train compartments if it will not consider, of the reasons for that; and
(d) if it knows the MTRCL's current passenger/staff ratio during peak hours, and whether the company has assessed if such ratio can effectively combat crimes of indecent assaults?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, the Railway District of the Hong Kong Police Force (the police) and the staff of the MTRCL are responsible for the security of the MTR network. Over the 12056 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 years, both parties have been working closely together to provide safe and reliable railway service to passengers. They review the effectiveness of the measures from time to time to prevent and curb crime within the railway premises.
My reply to Dr CHIANG Lai-wan's question is as follows:
(a) According to the information provided by the police, the number of cases of indecent assaults in the Railway Police District in the past three years and the gender of the victims are as follows:
Gender of the victims Number of reported cases Female Male 2010 151 148 3 2011 167 164 3 2012 197 195 2
(b) The MTRCL currently has no plan to introduce female-only compartments in the MTR network. The reasons are as follows:
(i) MTR provides one of the most frequent services amongst the railway networks in the world. During peak periods, crowds usually appear on the platforms, and train service is available around every two minutes. Any kind of exclusive compartments would have impact on the control of passenger flow;
(ii) as most MTR trains are of an open design, the introduction of female-only compartments would reduce the flexibility of passenger movement between train compartments;
(iii) when deciding whether to introduce female-only compartments, we should also consider whether there is a need to introduce male-only compartments to ensure both sexes are treated equally, so that the relevant arrangements comply with the Sex Discrimination Ordinance; and
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(iv) female-only compartments are not a common feature in railway systems around the world. Currently only a few jurisdictions such as Japan, Indonesia and Dubai offer them.
Notwithstanding, the MTRCL will continue to work closely with the police to take appropriate measures to prevent crime of indecent assaults in the railway premises.
(c) To prevent crime of indecent assaults in the railway premises, the MTRCL puts up posters at MTR stations to step up the promotion of anti-crime messages. Passengers are encouraged not to remain silent but report incidents or crimes immediately to the police or station staff for prompt assistance. MTR station staff are trained to prevent crime of indecent assaults, in order to assist the police in combating crime. The MTRCL will continue to work closely with the police to take appropriate measures to prevent crime of indecent assaults in the railway premises, and to protect the safety of passengers.
As at today, closed circuit television (CCTV) system is installed on all trains running in the West Rail Line, Ma On Shan Line and Disneyland Resort Line. It is also installed on some trains on the East Rail Line, Kwun Tong Line and Light Rail. New trains purchased by the MTRCL in the future will be equipped with the CCTV system. As for trains currently without the CCTV system, the MTRCL will, based on the design of different train models, consider installing the CCTV system during future modification works.
The main purpose for the MTRCL to install CCTV system in MTR train compartments is to enable the train captain to immediately understand the relevant situation in the train compartments through the CCTV system and provide prompt assistance, when passengers activate the in-train intercom where necessary. If passengers witness any illegal actions, they can contact MTR staff to timely notify the police for follow-up.
(d) Within the year up to 30 April 2013, the MTRCL carries an average of about 5 million passenger trips per weekday. The MTRCL has 12058 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
over 7 500 staff responsible for train and station operation. Their main duties are to maintain the daily operation of trains and stations, manage passenger flow and provide customer service, and so on. As mentioned in part (c) above, the MTRCL has on one hand stepped up the promotion of anti-crime messages in stations, and encouraged passengers not to remain silent but report incidents immediately to the police or train or station staff. At the same time the MTRCL also constantly reminds its train and station staff to be vigilant on crime prevention.
Cost for Production of Potable Water by Desalination
14. MS CLAUDIA MO (in Chinese): President, the Government plans to build a desalination plant in Tseung Kwan O and the anticipated unit cost is $12/cubic metre (cu m), which is three times of that of Singapore. On this, the Government has explained that direct comparison of such costs should not be made as different countries have used different calculation methods for energy charges. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the formula with which the authorities have projected the cost for seawater desalination (desalination cost) in Hong Kong; of the respective percentages of various expenditure items (for example, construction, management, repair and maintenance, equipment replacement, chemicals, electricity, osmosis membranes and operation, and so on) in the total costs;
(b) given that the desalination cost estimated during the one-year trial operation of the pilot desalination plant in Tuen Mun by the Water Supplies Department in 2005 was $7.8 to $8.4 per cubic metre, of the reasons why such cost will rise to $12 per cubic metre;
(c) of the specific differences between the calculation method adopted by Hong Kong for energy charges and those adopted by countries applying desalination technology, for example, the United States, Australia and Singapore, and so on; of any other factors that have resulted in the desalination cost in Hong Kong being substantially higher than those in other countries;
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(d) whether, according to the Government's assessment, the desalination cost can eventually drop, with the continuous improvement in desalination technology, to a level below the cost for Dongjiang water supply; if the assessment outcome is in the affirmative, of the specific plan and time frame for achieving that situation; if the assessment outcome is in the negative, the reasons for that; and
(e) given the Government's anticipation that the annual water production of the desalination plant is expandable to 90 million cu m, which amounts to approximately 9% of the total fresh water supply in Hong Kong, whether the Government will consider afresh further expanding the scale of the desalination plant so as to reduce the reliance of Hong Kong on other water sources; if it will, of the specific plan and time frame; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, in 2005, the Water Supplies Department commenced a pilot study on reverse osmosis technology for seawater desalination at Tuen Mun and Ap Lei Chau to test performance of the technology under different seawater regimes. The study was completed in early 2007. The test results confirmed feasibility of the technology in Hong Kong and that the potable water produced through reverse osmosis technology could comply with the drinking water standards set up by the World Health Organization.
Seawater desalination using reverse osmosis technology is now an energy intensive process. It entails a higher production cost as compared with other water sources. However, with continuous improvements to the energy recovery process, there is room for bringing down the production cost. The ongoing Planning and Investigation Study of Desalination Plant at Tseung Kwan O (the TKO Study) will consider practicable arrangements to reduce production cost.
My reply to the five parts of the question is as follows:
(a) The current estimated cost for producing potable water through seawater desalination is about HK$12 per cubic metre. The estimate is derived on the basis of the technology level reviewed and with reference to research findings of the pilot study on reverse 12060 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
osmosis technology completed in 2007. The respective percentages of various expenditure items in the production cost are as follows:
Respective Items Percentages Operations (including chemicals and electricity) 38% and maintenance (including replacements for equipment and membranes) Water distribution and customer services 20% Capital cost for the construction of a seawater 42% desalination plant and associated water transfer pipelines
The consultant for the TKO Study will consider the latest practicable technology and re-assess the unit cost of seawater desalination in the light of the design of the desalination plant.
(b) According to the abovementioned pilot study conducted between 2005 and 2007, the cost of producing potable water through desalination was estimated to be between HK$7.9 and HK$8.5 per cubic metre at 2006 price level. The current estimated cost of seawater desalination of HK$12 per cubic metre is derived by adjusting the average of the above prices in 2006 (that is, HK$8.2) upward by 18%(1) to account for the inflation from 2006 to 2012, and add the distribution and customer services cost, which have not been calculated in the 2006 cost estimate.
(c) According to the International Desalination Association's annual yearbook for 2007-2008 and 2008-2009, the unit cost for producing potable water by seawater desalination using reverse osmosis technology varied by country and region, ranging from HK$9.4 to HK$22.0 per cubic metre. The variations in seawater desalination costs in different parts of the world may be attributed to a number of factors such as construction cost, energy price, scale of ancillary facilities (including the facilities for seawater intake and outfall structures, fresh water service reservoirs and the length of the water transfer pipelines, and so on), capital cost and calculation methods,
(1) This is based on the changes to the Consumer Price Index (A) in 2006-2012. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12061
which can vary greatly. Therefore, the unit cost for desalination as estimated by the Water Supplies Department is not particularly high.
(d) With a growing number of countries and regions using seawater desalination to produce potable water, and the continuous improvements in related technology, we expect that there should be room for downward adjustment in the energy consumption in the desalination process. However, with the upward trend of local electricity tariff, it is considered at the present stage that the desalination cost cannot drop to the price level of Dongjiang water in the near future.
(e) Subject to the findings of the TKO Study and the water demand, the Government will formulate a development strategy for the project and time frame for the construction of a desalination plant. The site earmarked in Tseung Kwan O can accommodate a desalination plant with an output capacity of around 90 million cubic metres (mcm) per year. We expect that when the expanded output capacity of the desalination plant reaches 90 mcm per year, together with the rainwater collected locally and an annual supply of 820 mcm of Dongjiang water, it will be sufficient to meet the potable water demand of Hong Kong in 2030, after accounting for the projected water saving brought about by the achievements under various water demand and supply management initiatives. That said, we will continue to review the need to develop alternative water resources (including seawater desalination and reclaimed water) in planning new development areas, and to developing another desalination plant as necessary when the technology is proven to be cost-effective.
Implementation of Mandatory Window Inspection Scheme
15. MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Chinese): President, I have received complaints from quite a number of property owners expressing their dissatisfaction with the Buildings Department (BD)/Housing Department (HD) issuing "statutory notices" under the Mandatory Window Inspection Scheme (the Scheme) to them/the owners' corporations (OCs) of their housing estates. Some owners of Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats have pointed out that the HD is turning a blind eye to the problem of window safety of older HOS courts by 12062 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 selecting some HOS courts aged 10 to 15 years only for carrying out mandatory inspection of windows, but not those HOS courts aged 25 years or above in the same district. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the private buildings/housing estates and HOS courts to whom the owners/OCs of which (i) the BD and (ii) the HD had respectively issued the "pre-notification letters" under the Scheme in the past six months, and of the ages of and numbers of households in the buildings concerned (set out in the table below);
(i) Issuance of pre-notification letters by the BD Name of private Number of Age of the building(s) building/housing estate households involved
(ii) Issuance of pre-notification letters by the HD Name of HOS court Age of building(s) Number of households involved
(b) of the private buildings/housing estates and HOS courts to whom the owners/OCs of which (i) the BD and (ii) the HD had respectively issued the "statutory notices" under the Scheme in the past six months, and of the ages of and numbers of households in the buildings concerned (set out in the table below);
(i) Issuance of statutory notices by the BD Name of private Number of Age of building(s) building/housing estate households involved
(ii) Issuance of statutory notices by the HD Number of households Name of HOS court Age of building(s) involved
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12063
(c) whether the HD had issued (i) pre-notification letters and (ii) statutory notices under the Scheme to owners/OCs of housing estates under the Tenants Purchase Scheme (TPS) in the past six months; if it had, of the names, ages and numbers of households of the housing estates concerned (set out in the table below);
(i) Issuance of pre-notification letters Number of households Name of housing estate Age of building(s) involved
(ii) Issuance of statutory notices Number of households Name of housing estate Age of building(s) involved
(d) as the Government has indicated that in the selection of target buildings under the Scheme, "[v]arious relevant factors will be taken into account …… including building age, state of repair and maintenance, records of inspection and repair, and location", whether the authorities will review such criteria and accord the highest priority to buildings of older ages in the selection of target buildings;
(e) whether the HD had issued, in the past six months, pre-notification letters under the Scheme to the owners/OC of Kam Tai Court in Ma On Shan, which is only 11 years old; if it had, of the justifications; whether it had, during the same period, issued pre-notification letters to the owners/OCs of other HOS courts aged over 20 years in the district (including HOS courts such as Kam Ying Court, Chevalier Garden, Saddle Ridge Garden, Kam Lung Court, and so on); if it had, when the letters were issued; if the HD had issued the letter to Kam Tai Court but not the other HOS courts mentioned above, of the reasons for that;
(f) whether the BD and the HD have deployed staff to convene or attend residents' meetings at the housing estates of target buildings to 12064 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
explain the relevant arrangements to the owners (especially the elderly owners); if they have, of the housing estates the residents' meetings of which such staff members had convened or attended in the past six months; if not, whether these two departments have ignored the needs of the owners (especially the elderly owners);
(g) of the channel through which the owners/OCs of the buildings selected as target buildings under the Scheme may put forth their requests for removing the names of their buildings from the list of target buildings;
(h) whether the Government has collaborated with non-governmental organization(s) for deploying social workers to assist the elderly owners concerned in complying with the Scheme; if it has, of the details (including the name(s) of its partner organization(s)); if not, whether the Government has ignored the needs of the elderly owners; and
(i) whether the Government has set up a dedicated financial assistance programme for the Scheme; if it has, whether the leaflets and application forms of such a financial assistance programme have been attached to the pre-notification letters sent to the owners/OCs concerned so as to facilitate the owners/OCs to make applications; if no dedicated financial assistance programme has been set up, whether it has assessed if the Scheme will cause hardship to the owners (especially the elderly owners) of the target buildings?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, the BD fully implemented the Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme (MBIS) and the Mandatory Window Inspection Scheme (MWIS) on 30 June 2012 to tackle the problem of building neglect in Hong Kong at source. The MBIS and the MWIS cover all private buildings aged 30 years or above and 10 years or above respectively, except domestic buildings not exceeding three storeys in height. On the other hand, based on the delegated authority from the Director of Buildings, the Independent Checking Unit (ICU) of the HD has implemented the MBIS and the MWIS in accordance with the Buildings Ordinance (BO) over the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12065
HOS courts, the TPS estates and the public rental housing estates with divested retail and carparking facilities.
Under the MWIS, building owners are required, within a specified timeframe, to carry out a prescribed inspection and a prescribed repair found necessary of the windows in the building once every five years. One to two months before the issue of statutory notices, the BD and the HD will issue a pre-notification letter to the OC or post the letter at a conspicuous part of the target building to alert the owners/OC to get prepared and organized.
The BD and the HD have respectively established a panel for the selection of target buildings, which comprise representatives from professional institutions, relevant non-governmental organizations, property management professionals, District Councils and relevant government departments, to tender advice on the selection of target buildings for the two inspection schemes. The target buildings selected each year will represent a mix of buildings in different conditions and age profiles in different districts. Moreover, to minimize disturbance to building owners, the BD and the HD will synchronize the implementation of the MBIS and the MWIS, whereby buildings selected for the MBIS (that is, buildings aged 30 years or above) will also be selected for the MWIS under the same cycle so that owners can carry out inspection and repair works under the two schemes concurrently. The remaining target buildings will carry out the MWIS only.
My reply to the nine-part question is as follows:
(a) As selected target buildings may for various reasons be removed from the building list after the issue of pre-notification letters (see below for details), the BD and the HD will not announce at the first instance the initial list of selected buildings for the implementation of the MBIS and/or the MWIS.
During the 10-month period from the full implementation of the MWIS on 30 June 2012 to end April 2013, the numbers of private buildings that had been issued pre-notification letters by the BD for the implementation of the MWIS and the building age distribution are set out below. The total number of households involved is around 300 000.
12066 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Building age Number of buildings Between 10 and 15 years 357 Between 15 and 20 years 739 Between 20 and 25 years 925 Between 25 and 30 years 669 30 years or above* 1 644 Total 4 334
Note:
* These buildings were selected to implement the MBIS and the MWIS concurrently.
During the same period, the numbers of buildings in HOS courts that had been issued pre-notification letters by the ICU of the HD for the implementation of the MWIS and the building age distribution are set out below. The total number of households involved is around 38 000.
Number of Number of Building age HOS Courts domestic buildings Between 10 and 15 years 1 12 Between 15 and 20 years 5 19 Between 20 and 25 years 15 40 Between 25 and 30 years 2 10 30 years or above* 4 24 Total 27 105
Note:
* These buildings were selected to implement the MBIS and the MWIS concurrently.
(b) After the statutory notices under the MBIS and/or the MWIS have been issued, the building list concerned will be uploaded to the websites of the BD and the HD for public information. During the period from the full implementation of the MWIS to 10 May 2013, the BD had uploaded to its website(1) the addresses of 342 buildings which have been issued statutory notices under the MWIS. The
(1) Website:
total number of households involved is around 18 000, and the building age distribution is set out below. Given the large number of buildings involved, the details are not exhaustively set out in this reply. Members of the public may review the information on the BD's website.
Building age Number of buildings Between 10 and 15 years 14 Between 15 and 20 years 36 Between 20 and 25 years 39 Between 25 and 30 years 35 30 years or above* 218 Total 342
Note:
* These buildings were selected to implement the MBIS and the MWIS concurrently.
The HD has yet to issue statutory notices to any of the target buildings selected for the implementation of the MWIS.
(c) During the period from the full implementation of the MWIS on 30 June 2012 to end April 2013, the numbers of buildings in TPS estates that had been issued pre-notification letters by ICU of the HD for the implementation of the MWIS and the building age distribution are set out below. The total number of households involved is around 8 500.
Number of TPS Number of domestic Building age estates buildings Between 10 and 15 years 0 0 Between 15 and 20 years 0 0 Between 20 and 25 years 1 15 Between 25 and 30 years 0 0 30 years or above 0 0 Total 1 15
As mentioned above, the HD has yet to issue statutory notices to any of the target buildings selected for the implementation of the MWIS.
12068 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
(d) Founded on the principle of "prevention is better than cure", the MBIS and the MWIS aim to require owners to carry out regular inspection and timely repair for their properties so as to tackle the problem of building neglect at source. It is not the objective of the schemes that a building is included in the schemes only when it has become defective or dangerous. In respect of the MWIS, the BD and the HD will consider a host of factors when selecting target buildings, including the distribution of eligible buildings (that is, buildings aged 10 years or above) in the 18 districts, the maintenance conditions of the windows in the building, repair records of the windows, the traffic and pedestrian flows adjoining the buildings, location and building clusters, and so on. The MWIS needs to cater for buildings in different age groups. In fact, according to the BD's records, in the past there were reports on accidents associated with windows in younger buildings. On the contrary, in respect of older buildings with good maintenance and repair conditions, there is relatively less urgency for carrying out the MWIS.
(e) In respect of the implementation of the MWIS in HOS courts, in December 2012, the ICU of the HD issued pre-notification letters to Kam Tai Court in Ma On Shan, which had then reached the age of 12 years. At that time, the ICU also issued pre-notification letters to two other HOS courts aged 20 years or above in that district (that is, Sha Tin District). Buildings aged 10 years or above that have yet to be selected, including Kam Ying Court and Kam Lung Court which are under the jurisdiction of the ICU of the HD as well as Chevalier Garden and Saddle Ridge Garden which are under the jurisdiction of the BD, will be considered in future selection exercises based on the abovementioned criteria.
(f) After the issue of pre-notification letters, the BD and the HD will, in collaboration with the Hong Kong Housing Society (HKHS) and/or the Urban Renewal Authority (URA), organize district briefing sessions in various districts respectively to explain to the owners of target buildings throughout the territory the details of the two inspection schemes and assistance packages available. So far, the BD and the HD have organized a total of 59 and four briefing sessions respectively. Moreover, since the two schemes were implemented, the BD has visited the committees under the 18 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12069
District Councils and, upon invitation, attended a total of 31 residents' meetings and seminars arranged or organized by district organizations or OCs, to publicize the schemes in the community and answer residents' enquiries.
(g) The BD and the HD take into account a number of factors in selecting target buildings including their repair records. In general, if a building has undergone repair works in the common parts and on the external walls in recent years in compliance with a statutory repair order issued by the BD or the ICU of the HD under the supervision of an authorized person, or the building has repair works completed or being carried out under the Operation Building Bright, the BD and the HD will not select the building for the MBIS and the MWIS within a certain period after the completion of the repair works. However, a building having carried out repair works in recent years may still be selected for the MBIS and the MWIS if the BD and the HD have no record of the repair history of the building. In such cases, upon receipt of a pre-notification letter, owners may contact the BD or ICU of the HD to provide information about the repair works carried out in recent years. The departments will consider deferring the issue of statutory notices on a case-by-case basis. Moreover, an owner intending to raise an objection after receiving a statutory notice may lodge an appeal to the Appeal Tribunal under the BO.
(h) In association with various operations to enhance building safety, the BD has appointed contract consultants to provide social services to needy owners affected by its operations including the elderly, thereby assisting them in complying with the requirements of the BD including the statutory requirements under the MWIS. At present, there are a total of five organizations providing in-house social support services in the BD, including Christian Family Service Centre, Yang Memorial Methodist Social Service, Methodist Centre, Neighbourhood Advice-Action Council and Hong Kong Lutheran Social Service. The BD has also provided support to owners and the elderly of target buildings under the MWIS through the "Resident Liaison Ambassadors" recruited in the "Resident Liaison Ambassador Scheme" launched by the Home Affairs Department.
12070 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
While the ICU of the HD has yet to put in place such arrangement at present, it will make reference to the BD's experience and consider whether to implement similar schemes.
(i) The Government, together with the HKHS and the URA, have launched various assistance schemes to assist owners in complying with the statutory notices under the MBIS and the MWIS. In respect of the MWIS, the "Home Renovation Interest-free Loan" under the "Integrated Building Maintenance Assistance Scheme" jointly administered by the HKHS and the URA, the Building Safety Loan Scheme administered by the BD, and the Building Maintenance Grant Scheme for Elderly Owners administered by the HKHS provide various grants or interest-free loans to eligible owners for carrying out window inspection and repair. The BD and the HD have set out, in their pre-notification letters and statutory notices as well as the enclosed supplementary information to the owners, the names and the enquiry hotlines of the various assistance schemes mentioned above and the websites of the HKHS and the URA, so as to facilitate owners to contact the two supporting organizations direct and obtain details of the schemes.
Management of Private Moorings
16. MR DENNIS KWOK: President, under the Shipping and Port Control Ordinance (Cap. 313) and the Shipping and Port Control Regulations (Cap. 313, sub. leg. A), no person shall lay a private mooring anywhere in Hong Kong waters except with the written permission of the Director of Marine and in the place specified in the permission. There are 46 designated areas within Hong Kong waters for the laying of private moorings. To apply for a private mooring, a vessel owner must make an application to the Marine Department (MD) and indicate in the application up to four preferred locations in order of priority. If there is no suitable or available space in the applied locations, the application is placed on a waiting list. The successful applicant is given a written approval, subject to various standard conditions, including that no vessel exceeding the designated length of the mooring shall be secured to the mooring. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12071
(a) of the current number of private mooring spaces in each of the designated areas, broken down by the designated length of the mooring (set out in the table below);
Name of the Designated length of Number of private designated area the mooring (metres) mooring spaces less than 11 11-30 31-50 more than 50 Total: less than 11 11-30 31-50 more than 50 Total:
(b) of the number of vessels in respect of which permission for the laying of private mooring had been granted in each of the designated areas in the past five years, broken down by the designated length of the mooring (set out in the table below);
Number of vessels Name of Designated length of in respect of which designated area the mooring (metres) permission was granted less than 11 11-30 31-50 more than 50 Total: less than 11 11-30 31-50 more than 50 Total:
(c) of the current number of applications for a private mooring on the waiting list and the average waiting time that an application stays on 12072 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
the waiting list before permission is granted, broken down by the name of designated area (set out in the table below); and
Number of Average waiting time Name of applications on the before permission designated area waiting list is granted
(d) whether the Government has reviewed if private mooring spaces are sufficient to meet the demand; if so, of the outcome of the review; and whether it has plans to increase the number of private mooring spaces in the near future; if so, of the details; if it has no such plans, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING: President, our reply to Mr Dennis KWOK, in the same consequence as the several parts of his question, is as follows:
(a) As at 31 March 2013, the number of private mooring spaces in each designated area is given below:
Designated Number of private Name of the length of the mooring spaces designated area mooring Occupied Vacancy (metres) less than 11 0 0 Aberdeen South 11-30 0 0 Typhoon 31-50 1 0 Shelter more than 50 0 0 (Pak Sha Wan) Total: 1 0 Aberdeen South less than 11 26 0 Typhoon 11-30 422 0 Shelter 31-50 1 0 (Po Chong more than 50 0 0 Wan) Total: 449 0 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12073
Designated Number of private Name of the length of the mooring spaces designated area mooring Occupied Vacancy (metres) less than 11 30 0 Causeway Bay 11-30 156 129* (frozen) Typhoon 31-50 0 0 Shelter more than 50 0 0 Total: 186 129* (frozen) less than 11 1 0 Cheung Chau 11-30 10 0 Typhoon 31-50 0 0 Shelter more than 50 0 0 Total: 11 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 3 0 Lai Chi Kok 31-50 0 0 more than 50 0 0 Total: 3 0 less than 11 0 0 New Yau Ma 11-30 3 0 Tei Typhoon 31-50 9 0 Shelter more than 50 4 0 Total: 16 0 New Yau Ma less than 11 0 0 Tei Typhoon 11-30 3 0 Shelter 31-50 30 0 (Outside more than 50 0 0 Breakwater) Total: 33 0 less than 11 0 0 North of Yau 11-30 0 0 Ma Tei 31-50 1 0 Anchorage more than 50 0 0 Total: 1 0 Rambler less than 11 0 0 Channel 11-30 2 0 Typhoon 31-50 4 0 Shelter more than 50 (Outside 0 0 Breakwater) Total: 6 0 12074 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Designated Number of private Name of the length of the mooring spaces designated area mooring Occupied Vacancy (metres) less than 11 0 0 Sam Ka Tsuen 11-30 1 0 Typhoon 31-50 0 0 Shelter more than 50 0 0 Total: 1 0 less than 11 2 0 11-30 32 0 Ting Kau 31-50 27 0 more than 50 2 0 Total: 63 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 0 0 To Kwa Wan 31-50 1 0 more than 50 3 0 Total: 4 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 0 0 Tsing Yi North 31-50 3 0 more than 50 1 0 Total: 4 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 23 0 Tsuen Wan 31-50 39 0 more than 50 29 0 Total: 91 0 less than 11 0 0 Tuen Mun 11-30 7 0 Typhoon 31-50 0 0 Shelter more than 50 0 0 Total: 7 0 Aberdeen West less than 11 0 0 Typhoon 11-30 16 0 Shelter 31-50 0 0 (Outside more than 50 0 0 Breakwater) Total: 16 0 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12075
Designated Number of private Name of the length of the mooring spaces designated area mooring Occupied Vacancy (metres) less than 11 1 1 Chek Keng 11-30 0 0 Hau, Long 31-50 0 0 Harbour more than 50 0 0 Total: 1 1 less than 11 18 0 Cheung Sha 11-30 15 0 Lan, Lantau 31-50 0 0 Island more than 50 0 0 Total: 33 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 6 0 Discovery Bay, 31-50 0 0 Lantau Island more than 50 0 0 Total: 6 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 6 0 Ha Mei Wan, 31-50 0 0 Lamma Island more than 50 0 0 Total: 6 0 less than 11 330 0 11-30 350 0 Hebe Haven, 31-50 0 0 Sai Kung more than 50 0 0 Total: 680 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 0 0 Junk Bay 31-50 1 0 more than 50 0 0 Total: 1 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 4 0 Kau Sai Chau, 31-50 0 0 Sai Kung more than 50 0 0 Total: 4 0 12076 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Designated Number of private Name of the length of the mooring spaces designated area mooring Occupied Vacancy (metres) less than 11 1 0 11-30 0 0 Ko Tong Hau, 31-50 0 0 Long Harbour more than 50 0 0 Total: 1 0 less than 11 0 1 11-30 0 0 Lo Tik Wan, 31-50 0 0 Lamma Island more than 50 0 0 Total: 0 1 less than 11 0 0 11-30 1 0 Luk Chau Wan, 31-50 0 0 Lamma Island more than 50 0 0 Total: 1 0 less than 11 58 12 11-30 30 0 Middle Island 31-50 0 0 more than 50 0 0 Total: 88 12 less than 11 12 0 11-30 3 0 Nim Shue Wan, 31-50 0 0 Lantau Island more than 50 0 0 Total: 15 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 0 0 North Lantau 31-50 0 0 more than 50 1 0 Total: 1 0 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12077
Designated Number of private Name of the length of the mooring spaces designated area mooring Occupied Vacancy (metres) less than 11 30 30# (frozen) 14# 11-30 14 (12 are frozen) Shuen Wan 31-50 0 0 Hoi, Tai Po more than 50 0 0 44# Total: 44 (42 are frozen) less than 11 3 0 11-30 1 0 Stanley Main 31-50 0 0 Beach more than 50 0 0 Total: 4 0 less than 11 2 0 11-30 1 0 Tai Lam 31-50 0 0 more than 50 0 0 Total: 3 0 less than 11 14 0 11-30 20 0 Tai Mei Tuk, 31-50 0 0 Tai Po more than 50 0 0 Total: 34 0 less than 11 4 0 11-30 3 0 Tai Mong Tsai, 31-50 0 0 Sai Kung more than 50 0 0 Total: 7 0 less than 11 2 0 11-30 1 0 A Kung Wan, 31-50 0 0 Sai Kung more than 50 0 0 Total: 3 0 12078 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Designated Number of private Name of the length of the mooring spaces designated area mooring Occupied Vacancy (metres) less than 11 21 0 11-30 22 0 Tai Tam 31-50 6 0 Harbour more than 50 1 0 Total: 50 0 less than 11 7 0 11-30 3 0 Tsam Chuk 31-50 0 0 Wan, Sai Kung more than 50 0 0 Total: 10 0 less than 11 0 0 11-30 0 0 Tsing Yi West 31-50 1 0 more than 50 2 0 Total: 3 0 less than 11 3 0 11-30 11 0 Tso Wo Hang, 31-50 4 0 Sai Kung more than 50 0 0 Total: 18 0 Tuen Mun less than 11 0 0 Typhoon 11-30 6 0 Shelter 31-50 0 0 (Outside more than 50 0 0 Breakwater) Total: 6 0 less than 11 2 11 Wong Wan, 11-30 0 10 Wong Chuk 31-50 0 0 Kok Hoi more than 50 0 0 Total: 2 21 less than 11 1 0 Yung Shue 11-30 1 0 Wan, Lamma 31-50 0 0 Island more than 50 0 0 Total: 2 0 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12079
Summary Designated Number of private Number of the length of the mooring spaces designated area mooring Occupied Vacancy (metres) less than 11 568 55 11-30 1 176 153 42 31-50 128 0 more than 50 43 0 Grand Total: 1 915 208*#
Notes:
* One hundred and twenty-nine mooring spaces at Causeway Bay Typhoon Shelter have been relocated to Po Chong Wan, Aberdeen South Typhoon Shelter and have been frozen to facilitate the Central-Wan Chai Bypass and Shatin to Central Link projects. The frozen mooring spaces will be re-allocated to the owners of the affected moorings upon completion of the projects in around 2020.
# Forty-two vacancies at Shuen Wan Hoi, Tai Po have been frozen to facilitate the dredging works of Fish Culture Zone at Yim Tin Tsai, Tai Po.
(b) As at 31 March 2013, the number of vessels in respect of which permission for the laying of private mooring had been granted in each of the designated areas in the past five years is as follows:
Number of vessels Name of Designated length in respect of which designated area of the mooring (metres) permission was granted less than 11 0 Aberdeen South 11-30 1 Typhoon Shelter 31-50 0 (Po Chong Wan) more than 50 0 Total: 1 less than 11 0 11-30 1 New Yau Ma Tei 31-50 0 Typhoon Shelter more than 50 0 Total: 1 12080 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Number of vessels Name of Designated length in respect of which designated area of the mooring (metres) permission was granted less than 11 1 11-30 0 Chek Keng Hau, 31-50 0 Long Harbour more than 50 0 Total: 1 less than 11 2 11-30 6 Cheung Sha Lan, 31-50 0 Lantau Island more than 50 0 Total: 8 less than 11 1 11-30 1 Hebe Haven, Sai 31-50 0 Kung more than 50 0 Total: 2 less than 11 0 11-30 4 Kau Sai Chau, Sai 31-50 0 Kung more than 50 0 Total: 4 less than 11 1 11-30 0 Nim Shue Wan, 31-50 0 Lantau Island more than 50 0 Total: 1 less than 11 30 11-30 14 Shuen Wan Hoi, 31-50 0 Tai Po more than 50 0 Total: 44 less than 11 2 11-30 0 Tai Mei Tuk, Tai 31-50 0 Po more than 50 0 Total: 2 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12081
Number of vessels Name of Designated length in respect of which designated area of the mooring (metres) permission was granted less than 11 7 11-30 14 Tai Tam Harbour 31-50 2 more than 50 0 Total: 23 less than 11 0 11-30 1 Tso Wo Hang, Sai 31-50 0 Kung more than 50 0 Total: 1 Grand Total: 88
(c) As at 31 March 2013, the number of applications for a private mooring on the waiting list and the average waiting time that an application stayed on the waiting list before permission was granted are as follows:
Average waiting time Number of before permission was Name of applications on the granted for private designated area waiting list moorings laid in the last five years (months) Aberdeen South Typhoon Shelter 136 66 (Po Chong Wan) Causeway Bay (No private mooring was 21 Typhoon Shelter laid in the last five years.) (No private mooring was Ting Kau 20 laid in the last five years.) (No private mooring was To Kwa Wan 1 laid in the last five years.) (No private mooring was Tsuen Wan 41 laid in the last five years.) Tuen Mun Typhoon Shelter (No private mooring was 1 (Outside laid in the last five years.) Breakwater) 12082 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Average waiting time Number of before permission was Name of applications on the granted for private designated area waiting list moorings laid in the last five years (months) Cheung Sha Lan, 4 3 Lantau Island Hebe Haven, Sai 49 99 Kung (No private mooring was laid in the last five years.) (There are 12 vacancies for vessel with length Middle Island 20 overall less than 9 m. However, the vessels on the waiting list are all over 9 m.) Nim Shue Wan 7 3 (42 vacancies are frozen to facilitate the dredging works of Fish Culture Zone at Yim Tin Tsai, Tai Po. There are two Shuen Wan Hoi, 23 vacancies for vessel with Tai Po length overall between 15 m to 20 m. However, the vessels on the waiting list do not fall into the above range.) Tai Mei Tuk, Tai 19 6 Po A Kung Wan, (No private mooring was 3 Sai Kung laid in the last five years.) Tai Tam 11 3 Harbour Tsam Chuk (No private mooring was 9 Wan, Sai Kung laid in the last five years.) Tso Wo Hang, 18 12 Sai Kung Total: 383 -
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12083
(d) Under existing policy, the Government is responsible for providing sufficient sheltered space for local vessels and small visiting vessels to take refuge during inclement weather. From time to time, the MD conducts assessment on the supply and demand of typhoon shelter space on an overall territory-wide basis. The last assessment was conducted in 2009 and updated in 2012. The data showed that the overall existing supply of typhoon shelters and sheltered anchorages is able to meet projected demand up to 2025. As the sheltered space can be used flexibly on a first-come first-serve basis, the MD currently has no plan to designate new private mooring area in sheltered space. Except where it is prohibited for the purpose of mooring, the masters and owners of local vessels are allowed to anchor their vessels at any safe and suitable area in the Hong Kong waters (that is, not just moored in designated private mooring areas) according to the vessels' operational need.
Addressing Problems Caused by Rise in Number of Private Cars
17. MR WU CHI-WAI (in Chinese): President, statistics from the Transport Department (TD) show that the number of registered private cars rose from 421 062 in 2008 to 494 646 in 2012, representing an increase of 73 584 cars in four years' time which constituted 90% of the increase in the total number of registrations over the same period. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the design capacity of the roads/sections listed in the table below; the following in respect of these roads/sections on weekdays in the past three years: (i) the average hourly throughput during morning rush hours (that is, from 7.30 am to 9.30 am), (ii) the average hourly throughput during evening rush hours (that is, from 6 pm to 8 pm), (iii) the volume/capacity ratio during morning rush hours, and (iv) the volume/capacity ratio during evening rush hours; whether measures had been put in place in the past three years to mitigate the problem of congestion on such roads/sections, and whether it had assessed the effectiveness of such measures (set out in the table below);
12084 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Design Improvement capacity measures Road/section 2010 2011 2012 (vehicles/ and their hour) effectiveness Hong Kong Island Canal Road Flyover (i) (i) (i) (southbound) (ii) (ii) (ii) (iii) (iii) (iii) (iv) (iv) (iv) Canal Road Flyover (i) (i) (i) (northbound) (ii) (ii) (ii) (iii) (iii) (iii) (iv) (iv) (iv) Gloucester Road (eastbound) between Harcourt Road and entrance of Cross Harbour Tunnel Gloucester Road (westbound) between Harcourt Road and entrance of Cross Harbour Tunnel Connaught Road West (eastbound) Connaught Road Central (westbound) Pedder Street Harcourt Road (heading towards Central) Hennessy Road (heading towards Central) Hennessy Road (heading towards Victoria Park and Eastern District) Queen's Road Central LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12085
Design Improvement capacity measures Road/section 2010 2011 2012 (vehicles/ and their hour) effectiveness Des Voeux Road Central (eastbound) Des Voeux Road Central (westbound) Wong Chuk Hang Road (heading towards Aberdeen Tunnel) between Ap Lei Chau Bridge Road and the toll booths of Aberdeen Tunnel Kowloon Chatham Road North (southbound) Chatham Road North (northbound) Princess Margaret Road (heading towards Tsim Sha Tsui and Cross Harbour Tunnel) Princess Margaret Road (heading towards Ho Man Tin and Waterloo Road) Gascoigne Road (eastbound) Gascoigne Road (westbound) Kwun Tong Bypass (near Lei Yue Mun) (eastbound) Kwun Tong Bypass (near Lei Yue Mun) (westbound) 12086 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Design Improvement capacity measures Road/section 2010 2011 2012 (vehicles/ and their hour) effectiveness Argyle Street (westbound) between Tong Mi Road and Yim Po Fong Street Prince Edward Road West (westbound) between Nathan Road and Waterloo Road Boundary Street Nathan Road (southbound) Nathan Road (northbound) Waterloo Road (northbound) Waterloo Road (southbound) Lung Cheung Road (eastbound) Lung Cheung Road (westbound) New Territories Lion Rock Tunnel Road (heading towards Kowloon) Lion Rock Tunnel Road (heading towards the New Territories) Tate's Cairn Highway (heading towards East Kowloon) Tate's Cairn Highway (heading towards various districts in the New Territories) Shing Mun Tunnel Road (heading towards Sha Tin) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12087
Design Improvement capacity measures Road/section 2010 2011 2012 (vehicles/ and their hour) effectiveness Shing Mun Tunnel Road (heading towards Tsuen Wan) Tolo Highway (southbound) Tolo Highway (northbound) Tsuen Wan Road Flyover (southbound) Tsuen Wan Road Flyover (northbound) Tuen Mun Road (heading towards Tuen Mun) between Tsing Long Highway and Tai Lam Tuen Mun Road (heading towards Tsuen Wan) between Tsing Long Highway and Tai Lam Castle Peak Road-Yuen Long (eastbound) between Long Tin Road and Pok Oi Interchange Castle Peak Road-Yuen Long (westbound) between Long Tin Road and Pok Oi Interchange Fanling Highway (southbound) Fanling Highway (northbound)
(b) of the respective numbers of private cars registered under the names of Hong Kong permanent residents, non-Hong Kong permanent 12088 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
residents and companies among the newly registered private cars in each of the past five years; and
(c) whether it has studied the implementation of any measures (for example, implementing electronic road pricing (ERP) on busy road sections, limiting the validity periods of vehicle licences, and introducing additional measures to make good use of the existing public transport network) in order to address the problems arising from the continuous rise in the number of private cars; if it has, of the details of each measure (including whether a consultancy study has been conducted, the findings of the study, the anticipated year of implementation of the specific measures and the expenditure involved, and so on)?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, my reply to the various parts of Mr WU Chi-wai's question is as follows:
(a) The maximum capacity of and traffic flow during rush hours on the roads and tunnels concerned are shown in the tables below. It has to be pointed out that their volume/capacity ratios cannot always accurately reflect the real traffic situation. At times of heavy traffic, the traffic flow on these roads and tunnels may be affected by signalized junctions or congestion at downstream roads, such that the capacity may not be fully utilized and the vehicular flow could not be raised to an efficient level. As for some road sections where queues will appear due to busy traffic, the tabulated figures have not taken the queues so formed into account.
Hong Kong Island Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Canal Road Flyover (southbound) (i) 3 100 (i) 3 100 4 700 (between Cross Harbour Tunnel (ii) 2 800 (ii) 2 800 (CHT) and Sharp Street East) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12089
Hong Kong Island Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Canal Road Flyover (northbound) (i) 3 000 (i) 2 900 4 700 (between CHT and Sharp Street (ii) 3 200 (ii) 3 100 East) Gloucester Road (eastbound) (i) 5 000 (i) 4 900 (between Arsenal Street and 7 900 (ii) 4 500 (ii) 4 300 CHT) Gloucester Road (westbound) (i) 5 900 (i) 5 900 (between Arsenal Street and 7 900 (ii) 5 300 (ii) 5 200 CHT) Connaught Road West (i) 2 300 (i) 2 100 * (eastbound) (ii) 1 400 (ii) 1 400 Connaught Road Central (westbound) (i) 1 220 (i) 1 260 * (between Cleverly Street and (ii) 1 270 (ii) 1 200 Gilman Street) Pedder Street * 14 270# 15 270# Harcourt Road (heading towards Central) (i) 6 600 (i) 6 500 7 900 (between Tamar Street and (ii) 6 400 (ii) 6 300 Arsenal Street) Hennessy Road (heading towards Central) (i) 700 (i) 600 * (between Luard Road and (ii) 800 (ii) 800 Fleming Road) Hennessy Road (heading towards Eastern District) (i) 800 (i) 800 * (between Luard Road and (ii) 800 (ii) 900 Fleming Road) Queen's Road Central (westbound) (i) 860 (i) 910 * (between Queen Victoria Street (ii) 910 (ii) 920 and Bonham Strand) 12090 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Hong Kong Island Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Des Voeux Road Central (eastbound) (i) 250 (i) 240 * (between Morrison Street and (ii) 320 (ii) 310 Queen Victoria Street) Des Voeux Road Central (westbound) (i) 180 (i) 170 * (between Morrison Street and (ii) 190 (ii) 170 Queen Victoria Street) Wong Chuk Hang Road (heading towards Aberdeen Tunnel) (i) 2 300 (i) 2 300 4 200 (between Nam Long Shan Road (ii) 2 100 (ii) 2 200 and Nam Fung Road)
Kowloon Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Chatham Road North (southbound) (i) 2 500 (i) 2 600 5 600 (between Wuhu Street and Hong (ii) 2 100 (ii) 2 400 Chong Road) Chatham Road North (northbound) (i) 3 700 (i) 3 500 5 600 (between Wuhu Street and Hong (ii) 4 600 (ii) 4 500 Chong Road) Princess Margaret Road (southbound) (i) 2 000 (i) 2 100 4 700 (between Chatham Road Flyover (ii) 2 200 (ii) 2 500 and Wylie Road) Princess Margaret Road (northbound) (i) 1 800 (i) 1 900 4 700 (between Chatham Road Flyover (ii) 2 400 (ii) 2 600 and Wylie Road) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12091
Kowloon Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Gascoigne Road Flyover (eastbound) (i) 2 200 (i) 2 300 2 800 (between Jordan Road and (ii) 2 800 (ii) 3 000 Chatham Road South) Gascoigne Road Flyover (westbound) (i) 1 600 (i) 1 800 2 800 (between Jordan Road and (ii) 1 600 (ii) 1 700 Chatham Road South) Kwun Tong Bypass (eastbound) (i) 3 900 (i) 4 000 4 700 (near Lei Yue Mun Road) (ii) 3 900 (ii) 4 100 Kwun Tong Bypass (westbound) (i) 4 300 (i) 4 100 4 700 (near Lei Yue Mun Road) (ii) 3 200 (ii) 3 100 Argyle Street (westbound) (i) 1 500 (i) 1 600 (between Waterloo Road and * (ii) 1 300 (ii) 1 400 Yim Po Fong Street) Prince Edward Road West (westbound) (i) 3 200 (i) 3 200 * (between Embankment Road and (ii) 3 200 (ii) 3 100 Yuen Ngai Street) Boundary Street (eastbound) (i) 2 400 (i) 2 300 (between Tai Hang Tung Road * (ii) 2 500 (ii) 2 600 and Embankment Road) Nathan Road (southbound) (i) 1 000 (i) 1 000 (between Shantung Street and * (ii) 900 (ii) 900 Dundas Street) Nathan Road (northbound) (i) 500 (i) 500 (between Shantung Street and * (ii) 800 (ii) 800 Dundas Street) Waterloo Road (northbound) (i) 1 300 (i) 1 300 (between Yim Po Fong Street * (ii) 1 500 (ii) 1 400 and Pui Ching Road) Waterloo Road (southbound) (i) 1 300 (i) 1 300 (between Yim Po Fong Street * (ii) 1 200 (ii) 1 200 and Pui Ching Road) 12092 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Kowloon Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Lung Cheung Road (eastbound) (i) 4 100 (i) 4 000 (between Nam Cheong Street 4 700 (ii) 3 600 (ii) 3 500 and Lion Rock Tunnel Road) Lung Cheung Road (westbound) (i) 3 800 (i) 3 800 (between Nam Cheong Street 4 700 (ii) 3 400 (ii) 3 500 and Lion Rock Tunnel Road)
New Territories Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road/Tunnel (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Lion Rock Tunnel (heading towards New Territories) (i) 2 300 (i) 2 300 3 000 (between toll plaza and tunnel (ii) 2 900 (ii) 3 000 portal) Lion Rock Tunnel (heading towards Kowloon) (i) 2 900 (i) 2 900 3 000 (between toll plaza and tunnel (ii) 2 600 (ii) 2 700 portal) Tate's Cairn Tunnel (heading towards East Kowloon) (i) 3 000 (i) 3 000 3 000 (between toll plaza and tunnel (ii) 1 900 (ii) 1 900 portal) Tate's Cairn Tunnel (heading towards New Territories) (i) 2 000 (i) 2 000 3 000 (between toll plaza and tunnel (ii) 2 600 (ii) 2 600 portal) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12093
New Territories Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road/Tunnel (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Shing Mun Tunnel (heading towards Sha Tin) (i) 1 900 (i) 1 800 3 000 (between toll plaza and Shing (ii) 2 000 (ii) 2 000 Mun Tunnel Road) Shing Mun Tunnel (heading towards Tsuen Wan) (i) 2 100 (i) 2 100 3 000 (between toll plaza and Shing (ii) 1 800 (ii) 1 700 Mun Tunnel Road) Tolo Highway (southbound) (i) 5 400 (i) 5 600 (between Ma Liu Shui and Yuen 6 300 (ii) 4 300 (ii) 4 100 Shin Road) Tolo Highway (northbound) (i) 4 200 (i) 4 000 (between Ma Liu Shui and Yuen 6 300 (ii) 5 000 (ii) 5 000 Shin Road) Tsuen Wan Road (near Container Port Road) 9 400 118 340# 121 840# (two-way) Tuen Mun Road (heading towards Tuen Mun) (i) 3 000 (i) 2 900 4 700 (between Sham Tseng and Tsing (ii) 4 600 (ii) 4 800 Long Highway) Tuen Mun Road (heading towards Tsuen Wan) (i) 5 100 (i) 5 000 4 700 (between Sham Tseng and Tsing (ii) 3 500 (ii) 3 500 Long Highway) Castle Peak Road (eastbound) (i) 1 100 (i) 1 100 4 700 (Yuen Long Section) (ii) 1 100 (ii) 1 100 Castle Peak Road (westbound) (i) 1 200 (i) 1 300 4 700 (Yuen Long Section) (ii) 1 500 (ii) 1 600 12094 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
New Territories Traffic Traffic Maximum flow flow capacity Road/Tunnel (vehicles/ (vehicles/ (vehicles/ hour)@ hour)@ hour) 2010 2011 Fanling Highway (southbound) (i) 2 400 (i) 2 400 (between So Kwun Po Road 4 700 (ii) 2 300 (ii) 2 400 Interchange and Wo Hop Shek) Fanling Highway (northbound) (i) 2 300 (i) 2 300 (between So Kwun Po Road 4 700 (ii) 2 400 (ii) 2 400 Interchange and Wo Hop Shek)
Notes:
@ Morning and evening rush hours: (i) 7.30 am to 9.30 am; and (ii) 6 pm to 8 pm
* Capacity of the road cannot be accurately estimated as it is affected by signalized junctions and traffic flow at other roads.
# Daily average traffic flow
Information is taken from the Transport Department's Annual Traffic Census. For road sections whose traffic flow during rush hours is not available, the average daily traffic flow is provided instead.
Information on traffic flow for 2012 is being finalized and the data are expected to be available in mid-2013.
Regarding improvement measures, apart from carrying out minor road improvement works to ease traffic congestion at individual road sections, we have been tackling the congestion problem using various approaches as detailed in the ensuing paragraphs.
We encourage members of the public to travel by public transport means. Currently, 90% of passenger journeys taken make use of public transport services. In terms of transport modes, railway is the backbone of our public transport system, carrying over 4.5 million passengers per day. This accounts for about 40% of all public transport passenger trips.
The development of rail transport can speed up passenger flow, alleviate road traffic congestion and reduce vehicle-induced air LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12095 pollution. Therefore, our long-term planning for public transport will revolve around a railway-based network complemented by bus services. We are pressing ahead the construction of five new railways (that is, West Island Line, South Island Line (East), Kwun Tong Line Extension, Shatin to Central Link and Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link) for scheduled completion between 2014 and 2020. By then, our railway network will serve areas inhabited by more than 70% of the local population.
On bus services, the TD and franchised bus companies are vigorously pursuing bus route rationalization. In addition to the ongoing annual Route Development Programme for each district, the TD and franchised bus companies are also rationalizing bus routes through an "area approach". Bus routes are re-organized on the basis of the district/area concerned instead of individual routes, with a view to achieving effective use of resources. Under the area approach, a rationalization proposal may involve frequency reduction, re-routing, cancellation or amalgamation of overlapping and under-utilized routes. There may also be new bus-bus interchange (BBI) schemes or improvement of existing ones so that there are more route choices and more attractive BBI concessions. Upon commissioning of new railways, the TD will re-organize franchised bus and other public transport services with greater vigour. In parallel, the TD and franchised bus companies have been reducing the frequency of bus trips plying along busy corridors as far as practicable. In 2012, over 700 bus trips were removed from busy corridors in Central and Causeway Bay as well as Nathan Road.
Separately, we alleviate traffic congestion via using new technologies in traffic management and implementing ongoing traffic management measures. For example, Internet and mobile applications are employed to provide passengers and motorists with real-time traffic information and route search service to facilitate their early planning of preferred routes. Speed Map Panels have been installed before divergent points of various trunk roads in the New Territories heading to Kowloon to advise drivers on the Kowloon-bound traffic conditions. With the real-time traffic 12096 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
information displayed on panels, drivers can plan their driving routes beforehand more efficiently. Also, various traffic management measures are implemented in various districts, such as bus priority schemes, pedestrianization schemes, control of loading/unloading activities and Area Traffic Control Schemes.
We have been monitoring the effectiveness of the above measures, and will continue to enhance traffic management by a multi-pronged approach, with a view to alleviating traffic congestion.
(b) At present, there are two categories of registered owners on the Register of Vehicles maintained by the TD, that is, "individuals" and "non-individuals" (such as associations and institutions). Statistics of registered owners of newly registered private cars in the past five years are as follows:
Number of private cars Year of first Registered by Registered by registration owners who are owners who are Total individuals non-individuals 2008 24 704 9 910 34 614 2009 19 932 8 500 28 432 2010 28 667 12 573 41 240 2011 32 026 12 543 44 569 2012 32 004 12 979 44 983
For registered owners who are individuals, the TD has no breakdown on whether or not such applicants are Hong Kong permanent residents.
(c) To tackle vehicle growth, we have been closely monitoring the number of vehicles and vehicle journey speed for early identification and determination of the need to implement measures to curb excessive increase. Previously we have implemented financial measures to control the size of the vehicle fleet, including adjustment in the first registration tax (FRT) and annual licence fee for vehicles. In 2011, we raised the rates for all FRT bands for private cars by about 15% so as to contain the growth of this vehicle type to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12097
alleviate traffic congestion. We have noted a drop and a slowdown in the increase of licensed private cars in 2012 subsequent to the upward adjustment of the FRT. During the period, the overall journey speed of vehicles in Hong Kong has remained stable in general. We have no plan for the time being to limit the validity period of vehicle licences.
We have also examined toll measures to improve the traffic distribution on roads. The most recent example is the proposal to rationalize traffic distribution among the road harbour crossings by toll adjustment. We have conducted a consultancy study with a view to identifying an option that is feasible both in financial and legal terms. In end-2010, we conducted a public consultation on the findings and recommendations of the consultancy study. In response to the opinions gauged during the public consultation, we have revised the toll adjustment options proposed by the consultants, and have just completed early this month a three-month public consultation exercise on our proposed toll adjustment options. The fee for the consultancy study on the revised toll adjustment options is about $0.8 million.
ERP aims at regulating the traffic flow by charging tolls at congested roads, thus relieving traffic congestion. ERP was first suggested in early 1980s but the views have been diverse in the community. Whether or not ERP should be introduced, we have to take into account many factors such as the availability of alternative routes for motorists to bypass the charging zone to avoid mandatory toll payment. To take forward any proposal, apart from its being feasible from the technical aspect as well as the traffic management perspective, we would also need to have consensus within the community. We need to further study these issues.
Regulation of Sale of Rooftops Together with Residential Flats
18. MR RONNY TONG (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that the price of penthouse flats with rooftops of a residential development, which has been completed for intake recently, is almost $30 million each, but the occupiers need to pull down the folding maintenance ladders installed at the ceilings inside 12098 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 their flats, climb up to the top of the ladders and push open the skylight windows in order to reach the rooftops which are completely fenceless, making it difficult for the occupiers to use the rooftops. It has also been reported that "inaccessible flat roof, access for maintenance only" was specified in the building plans submitted by the developer concerned to the Buildings Department (BD) for vetting and approval. However, the Agreements for Sale and Purchase of such flats not only had no mention of such restriction but specified that owners were entitled to use the rooftops. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it is mandatory for the developer concerned to apply to the BD for amending the building plans and obtain the BD's approval before it may sell to prospective buyers the aforesaid rooftops, which are accessible for maintenance purpose only; if it is not, of the reasons for that; if it is, the criteria adopted by the BD for vetting and approving such applications, and whether the Lands Department will request the developers to pay premiums;
(b) whether it knows the number of developers in the last decade which had adopted the same or similar practices to increase the saleable area (SA) of residential flats; whether the Government had exercised control over such practices; if it had, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(c) whether it is a criminal offence for a developer to withhold information on the actual use of certain areas of a residential development in the building plans submitted to the BD; how the Government follows up such cases; of the number of such cases uncovered by the authorities in the last decade, and the details of such cases; and
(d) whether the authorities will prohibit developers from selling fenceless rooftops to prospective buyers in order to avoid accidents; if so, of the regulations and justifications based on which such sale may be prohibited; if not, the reasons for that; whether the authorities had uncovered similar cases in the last decade; if so, of the number of such cases and their details?
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SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, the Buildings Ordinance (BO) aims to regulate the planning, design and construction of buildings and associated works on private land and, for this purpose, to prescribe building standards on various aspects such as structural and fire safety as well as sanitation. Matters concerning property transactions fall outside the jurisdiction of the BO. The BD enforces control on buildings and associated works in accordance with the powers conferred by the BO. Under the BO, any person intending to carry out building works is required to appoint an authorized person (AP) and, where necessary, a registered structural engineer (RSE) and/or a registered geotechnical engineer (RGE) to prepare and submit building plans for approval by the BD, unless the works fall within the scope of designated minor works that can be carried out under the simplified requirements of the Minor Works Control System or such works are exempted works. The person must also appoint a registered general building contractor (RGBC) and a registered specialist contractor (RSC) to carry out the building works in accordance with the approved plans. After the building plans have been approved, the AP must obtain written consent from the BD before commencement of works.
On the other hand, the Government respects and protects, in accordance with the law, the right of individuals and legal persons to the acquisition, use and disposal of their property. Private residential developments are the private property of the owners of the developments. Under lawful circumstances, the owners of private residential properties are free to offer their properties for sale. At the same time, the Government understands that the purchase of a flat is a major undertaking for most people and that vendors and purchasers of first-hand residential properties are not on an equal footing. The Government has been striving to enhance the transparency and fairness of the sales of first-hand residential properties and consumer protection, with a view to ensuring that vendors will provide clear, comprehensive and accurate information on residential properties to the purchasers. In this connection, the Residential Properties (First-hand Sale) Ordinance (the Ordinance) was brought into full implementation on 29 April 2013.
My reply to the four-part question is as follows:
(a) As matters concerning property transactions fall outside the jurisdiction of the BO, it is not necessary for a developer to apply to the BD to sell a "rooftop accessible for maintenance purposes only", and no amendment of building plans is involved. In respect of the 12100 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
land lease, it is also not necessary to apply to the Lands Department for the sale of such kind of rooftop, and no payment of land premium is involved.
(b) and (d)
According to the Transport and Housing Bureau, standardization of the definition of SA was one of the important tasks accomplished by the Government and is a major contribution to the improved transparency of information on sales of first-hand residential properties over the past years. Starting from 10 October 2008, the standardized definition of SA clearly delineates what is meant by the area of a residential property. If there is a balcony or a utility platform in the residential property, the areas of the balcony and/or utility platform are also included as the SA for the property. As regards other areas which form part of the residential property, such as a roof, although the vendor may sell those areas to the purchaser, the vendor cannot include those areas in the SA for the residential property.
To further enhance the transparency and fairness of the sales of first-hand residential properties and provide better protection to purchasers, the Ordinance was brought into full implementation on 29 April 2013. Under the Ordinance, when a vendor offers first-hand residential properties for sale, he must present the area and price per square foot and per sq m of the residential property in the sales brochures, price lists and advertisements only on the basis of SA according to the definition in the Ordinance. The definition of SA in the Ordinance largely follows the aforementioned standardized definition. For other areas which form part of the residential property, such as a roof, although the vendor may sell such areas to the purchaser, the vendor must set out those areas item by item and must not include them in the SA for that residential property. Moreover, the vendor or a representative of the vendor can no longer present the area of a first-hand residential property in the form of "gross floor areas".
Also, under the Ordinance, vendors should set out "relevant information" that is specific to a residential property in the sales LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12101
brochure. In simple terms, if a piece of information is known to the vendor but is not known to the general public, and the information is likely to materially affect the enjoyment of the residential property, such information is "relevant information". If a residential property is connected to a rooftop and is sold together with a rooftop, but the owner of that property cannot use the rooftop in the normal manner, or the owner of the property is required to allow rooftop maintenance workers to enter his/her property in order to carry out maintenance work on the rooftop, and if this information is known to the vendor but is not known to the general public, such information is regarded as "relevant information" and must be set out in the sales brochure.
Agreement for Sale and Purchase (ASP) is an important document to protect the interests of both the vendor and the buyer in a residential property transaction. There are mandatory provisions in the Ordinance in respect of an ASP, including the setting out of the areas of a first-hand residential property according to the definition of SA in the Ordinance, and the setting out item by item of the other areas which form part of the residential property. The vendor and the buyer may suitably include in the ASP other provisions which are relevant to the transaction in order to clearly reflect the details and unique terms of the transaction. However, such provisions must not be in conflict with the mandatory provisions provided under the Ordinance.
The Administration does not have information on the number of residential properties which were sold with rooftops and the number of residential properties sold with rooftops for which fencing could not be mounted.
(c) Under section 40(2A)(c) of the BO, any person for whom any building works are being carried out and any AP, RSE, RGE, RGBC or RSC directly concerned with any such works who knowingly misrepresents a material fact in any plan, certificate, form, report, notice or other document given to the Building Authority under the BO shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine of $1,000,000 and imprisonment for three years. Where the BD identifies a situation involving a suspected contravention of the above provision, it will conduct investigation and take follow-up 12102 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
action and, depending on the circumstances and relevant evidence, consider instigating prosecution action. In the past decade, the BD had instigated prosecution action in one case involving a contravention of the provision. As the legal proceeding of the case is in progress, it is not appropriate to disclose the details.
Applications for Naturalization as Chinese Nationals
19. MRS REGINA IP (in Chinese): President, according to Article 18 of and Annex III to the Basic Law, the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China (CNL) shall be applied in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) from 1 July 1997. The Explanations of Some Questions by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress Concerning the Implementation of the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (Explanations) have been endorsed by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress and the Government of HKSAR is authorized to designate its Immigration Department (ImmD) to handle applications related to Chinese nationality in HKSAR in accordance with CNL and the Explanations. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) given that in handling applications for naturalization as Chinese nationals, the ImmD will consider factors including "whether the applicant has sufficient knowledge of the Chinese language", how the authorities conduct assessments in this regard, and whether the assessments include appraising the applicants' proficiency in four aspects, namely listening, speaking, reading and writing;
(b) given that in handling applications for naturalization, certain countries require the applicants to be familiar with the situation of the countries to which they apply for naturalization and even assess the applicants' knowledge of the history, background and origin, and so on, of these countries by way of examination, whether the authorities have plans to implement similar measures to ensure that people who are granted approval for naturalization as Chinese nationals have certain understanding of China; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
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(c) whether the authorities have any policy to encourage people who wish to be or who have been naturalized as Chinese nationals to learn about the situation of the country, so as to facilitate their early integration into society?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, the reply is as follows:
(a) Pursuant to Article 7 of the Chinese Nationality Law (CNL), foreign nationals or stateless persons who are willing to abide by China's Constitution and laws and who meet one of the following conditions may be naturalized upon approval of their applications:
(i) they are near relatives of Chinese nationals;
(ii) they have settled in China; or
(iii) they have other legitimate reasons.
Article 8 of the CNL stipulates that any person who applies for naturalization as a Chinese national shall acquire Chinese nationality upon approval of his application; a person whose application for naturalization as a Chinese national has been approved shall not retain foreign nationality.
The ImmD will consider each application for naturalization as a Chinese national on its own merits and will in general give consideration to the following factors:
- whether the applicant has a near relative who is a Chinese national having the right of abode in Hong Kong;
- whether the applicant has the right of abode in Hong Kong;
- whether the applicant's habitual residence is in Hong Kong;
- whether the principal members of the applicant's family (spouse and minor children) are in Hong Kong;
12104 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
- whether the applicant has a reasonable income to support himself/herself and his/her family;
- whether the applicant has paid taxes in accordance with the law;
- whether the applicant is of good character and sound mind;
- whether the applicant has sufficient knowledge of the Chinese language;
- whether the applicant intends to continue to live in Hong Kong in case the naturalization application is approved; and
- whether there are other legitimate reasons to support the application.
Each application for naturalization as a Chinese national will be handled on its individual merits. The ImmD will consider the naturalization applications in accordance with Articles 7 and 8 of CNL and the aforementioned factors on a fair and appropriate basis. In assessing the applicant's knowledge of the Chinese language, the ImmD will in general consider whether the applicant is capable of communicating with others in Chinese in daily life. However, it has to be pointed out that the knowledge of the Chinese language is only one of the factors to be considered. This does not imply that applicants who do not know Chinese will be refused, nor will those who know Chinese necessarily be eligible for naturalization as Chinese nationals.
(b) Each application for naturalization as a Chinese national will be handled on its individual merits. The ImmD will consider naturalization applications in accordance with Articles 7 and 8 of CNL and the factors as stated in answer (a) to fully assess the applicant's relation with Hong Kong, whether he/she can integrate into the community, and so on. At this stage, we have no plan to institute examinations similar to those used by some foreign countries in handling naturalization applications.
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(c) The Government of the HKSAR is committed to encouraging integration of the ethnic minorities (EMs) into the community while preserving their cultural characteristics. Various government departments have been providing a range of services to meet the needs of EMs, including educational support, career counselling and social welfare, and so on, to help them adapt to the lives in Hong Kong and integrate into the society as soon as possible. For example, the Home Affairs Department provides tailor-made learning classes, counselling and integration programmes via five support service centres, two sub-centres for EMs and other programmes with a view to facilitating their integration into the community. Furthermore, government departments also support organizing cultural and arts activities of EMs, carnivals, and so on, through various channels to promote integration of different ethnic groups.
On education, the Government is committed to supporting the integration of non-Chinese speaking (NCS) students, notably EM students, into the community, including facilitating their adaptation to the local education system and mastery of the Chinese language. Measures to be implemented in the 2013-2014 school year include refinement to the Summer Bridging Programme for NCS students progressing to Primary One to Primary Four to enable NCS parents to accompany their children during the Programme with a view to supporting NCS students' learning of Chinese through parent-school collaboration; planning the launch of an incentive grant scheme aimed to enhance the professional competencies of Chinese language teachers in teaching NCS students, and so on. Besides, in light of comments of the stakeholders and views of the Special Needs Groups Task Force of the Commission on Poverty, the Education Bureau plans to revise the funding mode for schools admitting NCS students with a view to widening NCS parents' school choices, enhancing the effectiveness of NCS students' learning of Chinese and removing the labelling of the so-called "designated schools".
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Measures to Reduce Emissions from Vehicles
20. MR TANG KA-PIU (in Chinese): President, it has been learnt that the roadside air pollution problem has aggravated in recent years. The Government launched the voluntary incentive schemes (VIS) in 2007 and 2010 to encourage vehicle owners to replace their pre-Euro and Euro I as well as Euro II diesel commercial vehicles (DCVs) respectively. In view of the low participation rates of the two schemes, this year's Policy Address has proposed to set aside $10 billion to appropriately increase the financial incentives for phasing out DCVs which comply with emission standards below Euro IV ("pre-Euro IV") in order to alleviate the roadside air pollution problem. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it has assessed the causes for the aggravation of the roadside air pollution problem in recent years; if it has, of the details, and whether such causes include the increase in the number of DCVs; if it has not, of the reasons for that; the anticipated effectiveness of the plan proposed by the authorities to set aside $10 billion as subsidies for phasing out pre-Euro IV DCVs;
(b) of the respective numbers of vehicles participating in VIS in 2007 and 2010 and the percentages of such vehicles in the total number of DCVs, broken down by the use of the vehicles (for example, nanny vans), the emission standard with which they complied and whether they were registered in the name of individuals or companies;
(c) whether it has compiled statistics on the average prices of various types of DCVs from 2007 to 2013 and their year-on-year rates of increase; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; whether it has regularly (for example, on a quarterly basis) compiled statistics on the number of various types of DCVs;
(d) of the number of registered DCVs from 2007 to 2013, broken down by year, the emission standard with which they complied and whether they were registered in the names of individuals or companies (set out in the table below);
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12107
Number of registrations in the names of in the names of individuals companies which Type of which who who who owned vehicles/emission owned owned owned owned more standard with who three or two three four than Total which they owned less DCVs DCVs DCVs … three complied only one DCVs of of the of the of the DCVs of DCV the same same same the same type type type same type type Light goods pre-Euro/ vehicles Euro I Euro II Euro III Euro IV or above Total Medium goods … vehicles … … … …
(e) based on the current natural phase-out rate and on the premise that replacement subsidies will not be provided, of the respective numbers of pre-Euro, Euro I and Euro II DCVs in 2016 as estimated by the authorities; the levels of emissions from such vehicles by that time, and the number of levels by which the pollutants concerned will cause the Air Quality Health Index (to be launched in 2014) to rise;
(f) whether it has regularly compiled statistics on the emissions from various types of vehicles (including franchised buses, taxis, light buses and DCVs, and so on) in Central, Causeway Bay and Mong Kok, and the proportion of such emissions in the total vehicular emissions; if it has, of the current situation; if not, the reasons for that;
(g) in respect of the emission reduction measures targeting at other sources of emissions (including power plants, vessels, franchised buses, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) taxis and light buses), of the estimated expenditure for each measure and the respective percentages of the quantities of roadside air pollutants expected to 12108 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
be reduced in the total quantities of the pollutants concerned (set out in the below table); and
Percentage of the quantity of air pollutants expected to be reduced in the total quantity Details of of the pollutants concerned Source of Estimated the Respirable emissions expenditure Sulphur Nitrogen measures suspended dioxide dioxide Others particulates (SO2) (NO2) (RSP)
(h) whether the authorities' plan of subsidizing franchised bus companies to retrofit Euro II and Euro III buses with selective catalytic reduction (SCR) devices to alleviate roadside air pollution will extend the service life and the depreciation period of the buses concerned; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; whether it has assessed the benefits to be obtained from the devices by franchised bus companies and the costs that the companies will need to share out; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT (in Chinese): President,
(a) Between 2006 and 2012, the concentrations of SO2, RSP and nitrogen oxides (NOX) measured by roadside air quality monitoring stations in Hong Kong dropped by 52%, 29% and 12% respectively, indicating that the vehicle emission reduction measures implemented by the Government have been effective to a certain extent.
However, the concentration of NO2 at roadsides rose by 23% over the same period, resulting in the number of days with Air Pollution Index (API) exceeding the prescribed standard (that is, over 100) to increase from 51 to 142 days.
The relatively high level of NOX (including nitric oxide (NO) and NO2) emitted from vehicles is a major contributing factor to the high concentration of NO2 at roadsides. Apart from direct emissions of NO2, the NO in emissions from vehicles will form NO2 by photochemical reaction in the presence of ozone (O3) or volatile LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12109
organic compounds (VOCs) in the air. Moreover, as the O3 level in the Pearl River Delta (PRD) Region has risen in recent years, the oxidation of NO to NO2 at roadsides is exacerbated, causing a rise in NO2 at roadsides.
NOX at the roadsides mainly come from franchised buses, LPG taxis and light buses with dysfunctional catalytic converters and DCVs. To improve the roadside air quality effectively, the Government has adopted a three-pronged strategy as follows:
(i) to conduct a trial jointly with the franchised bus companies on retrofitting Euro II and III franchised buses with SCR devices
to reduce NOX emissions. Subject to satisfactory trial results, the Government will fund the bus companies for retrofitting these buses with SCRs.
(ii) to provide one-off subsidy to owners of LPG taxis and light buses to replace their catalytic converters. Upon completion of the replacement programme, roadside remote sensing equipment and advanced emission tests will be deployed to strengthen the control of emissions from petrol and LPG vehicles.
(iii) to propose setting aside $10 billion for adopting an incentive-cum-regulatory approach to phase out pre-Euro IV DCVs.
Meanwhile, we will continue to co-operate with relevant authorities in the Guangdong Province to reduce emissions of major air pollutants in the PRD Region. This can lower the O3 level in the PRD Region and slow down the oxidation of NO emitted from vehicles to NO2 which causes air pollution.
The above measures will help the levels of RSP and fine suspended particulates at roadsides meeting the new Air Quality Objectives proposed for implementation in 2014.
Besides, the World Health Organization announced last year that emissions from diesel vehicles are carcinogenic. Phasing out 12110 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
pre-Euro IV DCVs can also reduce the risk of cancer due to exposure to emissions from diesel vehicles. The amount of RSP
and NOX emitted from these vehicles can also be reduced by 80% and 30% respectively.
(b) The Government launched incentive schemes for replacement of old DCVs in 2007 and 2010 respectively. The statistics on participating vehicles, broken down by the types of vehicles and emission standards, are listed below.
Numbers of Vehicles Participating in Incentive Schemes for Replacement of Old DCVs Types of (Participation Rate) Vehicles The 2010 Scheme The 2007 Scheme (as at end April 2013) Pre-Euro Euro I Euro II Light Goods 5 529 3 081 2 082 Vehicles (27.1%) (23.1%) (14.2%) Medium 4 693 1 448 2 078 Goods (30.4%) (34.8%) (24.1%) Vehicles Heavy Goods 211 128 187 Vehicles (21.6%) (29.2%) (17.6%) Non-franchised 392 857 922 Buses (51.8%) (75.4%) (42.9%) Light Buses 440 324 55 (45.0%) (29.2%) (6.1%) Total 11 265 5 838 5 324 (29.2%) (28.9%) (19.4%)
The Transport Department (TD) does not have statistics on vehicles participating in the above scheme broken down by the types of registered owners (individuals or companies).
(c) We have not gathered information on the prices of DCVs. The average taxable value of vehicles at first registration plus their total first registration taxes were kept in the TD's computer database since February 2007. They can broadly reflect the prices of these LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12111
vehicles. The relevant tax data on DCVs between February 2007 and the end of 2012 as gathered by the TD is at Annex 1.
(d) A breakdown of the number of registered DCVs (excluding franchised buses) by the emission standards for the past three years (that is, between 2010 and 2012), as provided by the TD, is shown in Annex 2. The data for 2008 and 2009 have already been sealed by the TD and are thus unavailable. Moreover, the TD does not have statistics on the number of registered vehicles broken down by the types of registered owners (individuals or companies).
(e) Between 2010 and 2012, despite the incentive scheme for vehicle replacement launched by the Government, on average only about 200 pre-Euro III DCVs were phased out each month. As at the end of 2012, there were around 49 000 licensed pre-Euro III DCVs on roads. If the phasing out of these vehicles cannot be expedited significantly, we will still have nearly 42 000 pre-Euro III DCVs operating in 2016. Given the low retirement rate of these vehicles and their ageing will lead to increased emissions, we anticipate that their emission level in 2016 will be about the same as present. In other words, emissions from pre-Euro III DCVs will account for
80% and 55% of the total emissions of RSP and NOX from local DCVs respectively. If the scheme for phasing out pre-Euro IV DCVs could not be rolled out as scheduled, the roadside API is expected to remain high as at the present, and we will not be able to comply with the standards for RSP under the new Air Quality Objectives.
(f) While the Environmental Protection Department (EPD) did not estimate the emission levels and profiles of vehicles in Central, Causeway Bay and Mong Kok on a regular basis, the EPD estimated the emissions for the three pilot low emission zones in the above three districts in 2010. The details are set out in Annex 3.
(g) The table below shows the estimated effectiveness of the emission reduction measures targeting at power plants, vessels, franchised buses, and LPG taxis and light buses:
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Percentage of quantity of air pollutants to be reduced Emission in the total quantity of the pollutants concerned sources SO2 NOX RSP Others Power 5% 2% 3% - plants Vessels 24% - 9.7% Not applicable Franchised Not applicable 1% Not applicable Not applicable buses LPG taxis VOC: 2% and light Not applicable 5% Not applicable CO: 18% buses
(VOC denotes vocs and CO denotes carbon monoxide)
Details of the relevant measures and their estimated expenditures are as follows:
(i) To improve air quality, we have required power plants to obtain licences for their operation and adopt the most advanced and practicable emission reduction technologies since 2005. In addition, we have also set and progressively
tightened stringent emission caps for SO2, NOX and RSP since 2005.
Since 2008, three Technical Memoranda have been gazetted respectively, on which reviews have been conducted at least once every two years. In the latest Technical Memorandum gazetted in November 2012, we further tightened the emission caps which will be effective from 2017. Compared to the levels in 2005, the new annual emissions of relevant pollutants would be reduced by 44% to 87% respectively against the total annual emission of relevant pollutants. In order to meet the emission caps, the two power companies have installed emission abatement devices in their main coal-fired units and used more natural gas and low emission coals for electricity generation to reduce emissions. The overall ratio of natural gas in the combined fuel mix of the two power companies for local electricity generation is expected to increase from 28% LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12113
in 2012 to around 50% in 2015. In 2011, the respective actual emissions from the power sector were reduced by 35% to 82% against the levels in 2005.
The expenditures for the Government for the implementation of the above control measure are absorbed by the resources provision of the Air Programme of the EPD.
(ii) In September 2012, the Government introduced a three-year incentive scheme that waives half of the port facilities and light dues for ocean-going vessels (OGV) which switch to cleaner fuel (that is, light diesel with sulphur content not exceeding 0.5%) while berthing in Hong Kong waters. The Government is preparing to mandate OGV to switch fuel at berth by legislation and aims to submit the new legislation to the Legislative Council for consideration in the next Legislative Session. The Government is also going to tighten the sulphur limit of light diesel used by local vessels from 0.5% to 0.05% by legislation which is expected to come into effect in 2014. Upon the implementation of the above two
new measures, the emissions of SO2 and RSP in Hong Kong can be reduced by 24% and 9.7% respectively as compared to the levels in 2011.
The expenditures for the Government for the above two schemes are absorbed by the resources provision of the Air Programme of the EPD.
(iii) We are conducting a trial jointly with the franchised bus companies on retrofitting Euro II and III franchised buses with
SCRs to reduce NOX emissions. Subject to satisfactory trial results, the Government will fund the full cost of retrofitting Euro II and III buses with these devices. The trial commenced in September 2011 and we are now analysing the data together with the franchised bus companies. The initial
results of the trial show that SCRs can effectively reduce NOX emissions by more than 60% for the bus models under trial. Coupled with the diesel particulate filters already retrofitted, 12114 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
retrofitting SCRs could raise the emission performance of these buses to that of Euro IV and V models respectively. $550 million has been set aside by the Government for this retrofitting scheme.
(iv) In 2014, we will make use of remote sensing equipment to identify petrol and LPG vehicles with excessive emissions. The vehicle owners will be required to repair their vehicles properly and pass an emission test aided by chassis dynamometers to be conducted in a Vehicle Emission Testing Centre within a specified period. Vehicles failing the test will have their licences revoked.
As taxis and light buses run on high mileage and need more frequent replacement of the catalytic converters, the Government will, before the implementation of new measures, provide a one-off subsidy to owners of these vehicles to replace their catalytic converters and oxygen sensors so that they can be better prepared to the above measures.
We estimate that about 80% of petrol/LPG taxis and 45% of petrol/LPG light buses have damaged catalytic converters, which have caused a 10-fold increase or more in emissions from individual vehicles. Petrol/LPG taxis and light buses
on busy corridors account for up to 40% of the total NOX emissions and are one of the major causes of roadside air pollution. Replacing ageing converters on petrol and LPG vehicles can help reduce 90% of emissions. It can also reduce fuel consumption and improve driving performance. $150 million has been set aside by the Government for this replacement scheme.
(h) All franchised bus companies are required to operate their franchised bus services with buses under the age of 18, and have been replacing their serving buses accordingly. The objective of retrofitting Euro
II and Euro III buses with SCRs is to reduce their NOx emissions. The service life and depreciation period of the buses concerned will LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12115
not be changed. Subject to satisfactory trial results, the Government will fully fund the capital costs of retrofitting these buses with such devices, while the bus companies will bear the subsequent operational and maintenance costs. We are now analysing the trial data together with the franchised bus companies and will report the trial results to the Legislative Council. We aim to roll out the large-scale retrofit programme as soon as possible in order to improve air quality.
Annex 1
Average sum of taxable value and first registration tax of diesel vehicles (from 2007 to 2012)
First Registration Year(1) 2007 (since Type of Vehicles 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 February) Public Light $412,000 $448,000 $441,000 $454,000 $456,000 $537,000 Buses Private Light $406,000 $389,000 $445,000 $465,000 $464,000 $520,000 Buses Non-franchised $794,000 $840,000 $1,081,000 $916,000 $967,000 $902,000 Buses Franchised $1,724,000 $2,374,000 $2,382,000 $2,432,000 $2,527,000 $2,502,000 Buses Light Goods $245,000 $255,000 $256,000 $278,000 $299,000 $304,000 Vehicles Medium Goods $492,000 $517,000 $547,000 $585,000 $648,000 $670,000 Vehicles Heavy Goods $729,000 $787,000 $886,000 $827,000 $900,000 $949,000 Vehicles Taxis Starting from 2003, new registered taxis must use LPG or petrol.
Note:
(1) The above figures are the average of the sum of the taxable value and first registration tax of diesel vehicles first registered in the relevant year. As the current computer system of the TD has been in use since February 2007, it can only provide data for February 2007 and thereafter.
12116 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Annex 2
Number of registered DCVs between 2010 and 2012
Type of Vehicles End of 2010 End of 2011 End of 2012 Light Euro I or Pre-Euro 23 164 21 625 20 268 Goods Euro II 14 655 13 727 12 681 Vehicles Euro III 17 729 17 665 17 608 Euro IV 15 218 18 335 20 887 Euro V 484 1 596 3 448 Total 71 250 72 948 74 892 Medium Euro I or Pre-Euro 12 056 10 943 10 138 Goods Euro II 8 569 7 656 6 645 Vehicles Euro III 9 728 9 689 9 670 Euro IV 7 712 8 542 8 538 Euro V 539 2 147 4 279 Total 38 604 38 977 39 270 Heavy Euro I or Pre-Euro 1 036 1 007 994 Goods Euro II 1 065 975 882 Vehicles Euro III 519 517 516 Euro IV 700 979 982 Euro V 20 272 972 Total 3 340 3 750 4 346 Non-fra Euro I or Pre-Euro 466 388 332 nchised Euro II 1 979 1 568 1 013 Buses Euro III 2 811 2 759 2 687 Euro IV 2 002 2 103 2 110 Euro V 311 751 1 470 Total 7 569 7 569 7 612 Light Euro I or Pre-Euro 1 169 1 080 1 030 Buses Euro II 901 887 915 Euro III 550 546 545 Euro IV 363 454 481 Euro V 166 217 371 Total 3 149 3 184 3 342
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Annex 3
Estimates of emission levels and profiles of vehicles in the three Pilot Low Emission Zones in 2010
Major Busy Emissions of Pollutants (Tonnes) (Percentages) Type of Vehicles Districts RSP NOX VOCs CO RSP NOX VOCs CO Central Franchised Buses 0.14 13.04 0.89 2.28 45% 71% 36% 15% LPG Taxis 0.00 3.43 0.52 7.13 0% 19% 21% 46% LPG Light Buses 0.00 0.04 0.11 0.61 0% 0% 4% 4% DCVs 0.16 1.67 0.49 0.82 53% 9% 20% 5% Others 0.01 0.22 0.47 4.82 2% 1% 19% 31% Causeway Franchised Buses 0.20 24.04 1.72 4.27 59% 87% 60% 28% Bay LPG Taxis 0.00 2.44 0.23 5.21 0% 9% 8% 34% LPG Light Buses 0.00 0.16 0.46 2.61 0% 1% 16% 17% DCVs 0.14 1.04 0.21 0.49 40% 4% 7% 3% Others 0.00 0.11 0.23 2.59 1% 0% 8% 17% Mong Kok Franchised Buses 0.42 41.69 3.45 8.29 37% 69% 35% 14% LPG Taxis 0.00 12.03 1.80 24.83 0% 20% 18% 41% LPG Light Buses 0.00 0.37 0.96 5.52 0% 1% 10% 9% DCVs 0.67 5.68 1.65 2.96 60% 9% 17% 5% Others 0.03 0.72 1.95 18.46 3% 1% 20% 31%
Provision of Escalators and Lifts at Footbridges
21. MR CHRISTOPHER CHUNG (in Chinese): President, regarding the provision of escalators and lifts at footbridges for public use, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the respective numbers of footbridges in Hong Kong which were constructed by the Government and developers, with a breakdown of those which are provided with escalators and lifts (set out in the table below);
12118 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Number of footbridges Total Escalators With lifts number Nil One only Two or more Constructed by the Government Constructed by developers
(b) of the respective criteria based on which the Government decides, when planning to construct footbridges, (i) whether or not to install escalator(s), and (ii) whether one or two escalators (that is, two-way) will be installed;
(c) whether the authorities have short and long-term plans to retrofit escalators at those footbridges currently provided with no or only one escalator, for the convenience of footbridge users; if they have such plans, of the details and the number of escalators to be retrofitted;
(d) whether, at present when incorporating the clauses in the land leases of private developments for requiring the developers to build footbridges, the Government has specified that such footbridges must be provided with escalators; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(e) given that some members of the public have relayed to me that certain pairs of escalators installed at the same locations of the footbridges operate in the same direction, causing inconvenience to users travelling in the opposite direction and wastage of electricity, which government departments are currently responsible for managing the escalators installed at footbridges, and whether the duties of the officers concerned include ensuring that the aforesaid situation will not occur; and
(f) whether the authorities have drawn up a timetable for retrofitting lifts at those footbridges in Hong Kong which have not yet been provided with lifts for the convenience of the elderly, persons with disabilities and other people in need when using footbridges; if they LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12119
have, of the details and the timetable; if not, whether such a timetable will be drawn up?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, currently, most footbridges open for public use are constructed by the Government and maintained by the Highway Department (HyD). There are also some footbridges located outside public road areas (such as public housing estates and hospitals), while some are constructed by private developers under land grant provisions and open for public use. My reply to the six parts of the question asked by Mr Christopher CHUNG is as follows:
(a) The number of footbridges in Hong Kong constructed by the Government as well as developers and maintained by the Government and a breakdown of those provided with escalators and lifts are tabulated below:
Number of footbridges Escalators Total Two With One number Nil or lifts only more Public footbridges that are 725 687 30 8 75 constructed by the Government and maintained by HyD Footbridges open for public use 21 20 1 0 3 that are constructed by developers under land grant provisions and handed over to HyD for maintenance
The Lands Department (LandsD) does not have comprehensive information on the number of footbridges that are built by developers and the escalators and lifts retrofitted to these footbridges. The data available in LandsD now is that of the footbridges constructed in 1980 or beyond of which the construction is required by the land leases of private developments to provide 12120 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
various facilities/open space for the public. Such data has been uploaded onto the LandsD's website
(b) When planning the construction of new footbridges, the Administration will, in accordance with the actual environment and need, consider the provision of suitable linkages such as stairs, ramps, lifts or escalators. On whether or not to install escalators and the number of which to be installed, factors taken into account include the estimated utilization of the footbridge concerned and if such installation will promote the use of the footbridge and reduce non-compliance of traffic rules by road-crossing pedestrians. Other environmental considerations are land space, availability of similar facilities in connecting buildings, technical feasibility, and so on.
(c) According to the Transport Planning and Design Manual (TPDM) published by the Transport Department (TD), given sufficient space, compatibility of the surrounding and confirmed technical feasibility, installation of up-and-down escalators at proposed footbridges in developed and development areas could be considered when either one of the following criteria is fulfilled:
- the footbridge, when both stairs and ramps/lifts are provided in the design, has an estimated pedestrian flow of at least 3 000 per hour in both directions; or
- the footbridge, when stairs alone are provided in the design, has an estimated two-way pedestrian flow of at least 1 500 per hour in both directions.
The Administration has no plan for the time being to retrofit all existing footbridges in Hong Kong with escalators. However, the Administration will examine the utilization of existing footbridges that are not yet provided with escalators or retrofitted only with one-way escalators whenever necessary. If the above criteria are met, the installation of escalators will be considered.
(d) When vetting land leases of private developments, the Administration will, taking into account the development need as LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12121
appropriate, request the developers to install pedestrian accesses and facilities (including escalators) and open them for public use. When installing such pedestrian accesses and facilities (including footbridges), the developers have to comply with the requirements under the TPDM published by the TD, including the provision of escalators as necessary.
(e) For public footbridges constructed by the Government and maintained by HyD, the daily operation and maintenance of the associated lifts and escalator facilities are taken up by the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department. The travelling direction of the escalators depends basically on the major direction of pedestrian flow. The Administration will from time to time review the utilization of footbridge escalators to ensure proper utilization. Should there be comments, members of the public could present their views on the travelling direction of individual escalators to HyD for follow-up.
(f) The Administration announced a new "Universal Accessibility" policy in August 2012. The policy aims at retrofitting existing public walkways (that is, footbridges, elevated walkways and pedestrian subways maintained by the HyD) with barrier-free facilities (such as lifts) to facilitate access of the public. The HyD has just consulted the 18 District Councils on proposals suggested by the public under the new policy (involving about 250 public walkways) on the priority for implementation, and is taking forward preliminary feasibility studies for the three selected prioritized projects for each district. For projects preliminarily confirmed to be technically feasible, detailed design and construction works will be arranged by HyD as soon as possible.
Meanwhile, we will continue to implement the retrofitting programme planned earlier (that is, about 170 projects for retrofitting existing public pedestrian accesses with barrier-free facilities as proposed by the Equal Opportunities Commission), and aim at completing the majority of the projects by 2016-2017.
12122 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Expansion Project for Prince of Wales Hospital
22. DR ELIZABETH QUAT (in Chinese): President, a survey conducted by a political party has found that the waiting time for consultation in the Accident and Emergency (A&E) Department of the Prince of Wales Hospital (PWH) in the New Territories East (NTE) Cluster is much longer than the average waiting time in the A&E Departments of other public hospitals (101 minutes) and it is the longest in Hong Kong. Over half of the respondents have indicated that there were occasions on which they had waited for over five hours for consultation, while 20% of the respondents had the experience of waiting for up to eight to 12 hours. According to information of the Hospital Authority (HA), the average daily attendance of the A&E Department of PWH exceeds 410, and its attendance last year was 160 000, representing a year-on-year increase of 7.1% which was higher than the average rate of increase of 4.4% across the HA. Meanwhile, the residents have been continuously complaining about the prolonged waiting time for consultation at various specialist out-patient (SOP) clinics in PWH and the shortage of hospital beds. It has been reported that as the bed occupancy rate of the medical wards in PWH in January this year was as high as 130%, temporary beds accounting for 30% of the total number of beds had to be placed in the corridors. Faced with the ageing population in Sha Tin and the pressure of rapid population growth brought about by the completion of a number of new housing estates in Ma On Shan, the demand for PWH's healthcare services has far exceeded its capacity for a long period of time. As a result, members of the public are concerned that PWH's epidemic prevention and infection control capabilities have been hampered. On the other hand, the Sha Tin District Council endorsed the Phase Two expansion project for PWH (the expansion project) in 2006 and PWH finalized the proposal for the expansion project in June 2010. However, up to now, funds have not yet been allocated for the implementation of the project and there is no timetable for its completion. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council if it knows:
(a) the progress as well as the expected commencement and completion dates of the expansion project; if there is no timetable, of the reasons for that;
(b) whether the authorities have formulated any short, medium and long-term measures to tackle the problem of prolonged waiting time for consultation for various specialties of PWH; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12123
(c) the details of the expansion project; how the expansion project will strengthen the services provided by various specialties of PWH, especially those specialties with longer waiting time for consultation (for example, mental health services for young people, medicine and A&E services), including by how long the waiting time for consultation for various specialties may be shortened;
(d) the respective bed-to-population ratios for the various specialties in each cluster at present, and the relevant ratios in the NTE Cluster upon completion of the expansion project; and
(e) given that the population of Sha Tin and Ma On Shan will continue to grow in the coming few years, whether the authorities have assessed if the NTE Cluster will, upon completion of the expansion project, meet the proposed standards in relation to healthcare services as set out in the Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines, and the results of comparison of the NTE Cluster with other clusters regarding the relevant standards of services?
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, apart from being the largest acute hospital serving the NTE, the PWH is also the teaching hospital of the Faculty of Medicine of The Chinese University of Hong Kong, as well as a referral centre for various specialties in the territory, including adult and paediatric oncology, cardiothoracic surgery, paediatric surgery, neurosurgery and major trauma. In addition to the 1.3 million population in the NTE including Sha Tin, its service users also include cross-district patients.
In recent years, the NTE Cluster, which includes the PWH, is facing an increasing demand on healthcare services from local elderly population (including the large number of residents in elderly homes within the district) and cross-boundary patients. The elders are mainly in need of medicine in-patient service whereas the cross-boundary patients mainly require trauma treatment and paediatric service. As for the PWH, the hospitalization rate of patients attending the A&E Department has been on the rise. The occupancy rate of acute medical beds saw an increase of over 6% in the past two years. The hospital has to open more wards and add beds to meet the demand.
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My reply to various parts of the question is as follows:
(a) The PWH was planned in the 1970s and opened in 1984. It is the largest hospital in the NTE Cluster, providing acute and tertiary healthcare services. It is also the teaching hospital of the Faculty of Medicine of The Chinese University of Hong Kong. In order to provide adequate space to meet the long-term healthcare needs of the district and healthcare training, the Government and the HA carried out the Phase 1 Redevelopment of the PWH in 2007. The 14-storey new building, the Main Clinical Block and Trauma Centre, provides in-patient services including intensive care unit and intensive care center, operating theatres and day services. The new building, with a total gross floor area of 71 500 sq m to provide a better hospital environment for patients, was opened in late 2010.
The original proposal for the phase two redevelopment project of the PWH was to demolish Staff Blocks A, C and D and the lecture hall of the nursing school for the construction of a new block and provision of sufficient clinical space and facilities in compliance with the current design and standards. Provision of additional beds was not included in the original plan. In light of the relevant government departments' latest projection of population growth and expected changes in demographic structure in NTE, the HA is reviewing the phase two redevelopment project, with considerations given to increasing the number of beds and expanding the in-patient services so as to meet the long-term medical service demand of the NTE Cluster, including Sha Tin. Upon completion of the review, the HA will conduct a technical feasibility study on the new proposal and draw up an overall development plan for the PWH. As the review is in progress and will take some time to complete, the estimated timetable for the commencement and completion of the phase two redevelopment project is not yet available for the time being.
(b) and (c)
Although there has been a shortage of manpower in recent years, to cater for the increasing demand for medical services, the PWH has implemented various measures to improve its A&E service, SOP services and the waiting time for hospital beds, with a view to enhancing the overall service quality.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12125
As for SOP services, the NTE Cluster will improve the management of SOP waiting lists in 2013-2014. Additional consultation sessions for Ophthalmology will be conducted to manage a total of 4 000 new cases. Moreover, anti-vascular endothelial growth factor treatment will be provided to 60 new age-related macular degeneration cases and 500 new cases of diabetic related eye diseases, including sight threatening diabetic retinopathy.
Additional resources are allocated to the NTE Cluster for granting special honorarium to doctors who work overtime voluntarily to speed up the handling of routine cases in Surgery, Gynaecology and Psychiatry. New patients who are considered to be in suitable condition after assessment may be given an earlier appointment.
The HA has implemented a new initiative since August 2012 to facilitate patients in certain specialties with stable condition to seek earlier SOP appointment through cross cluster arrangements. The HA is now exploring a similar arrangement to transfer some gynaecological patients in NTE Cluster to Hong Kong East Cluster for consultation.
There is an established mechanism in PWH for referral of patients in SOP clinics who are in stable and simple medical condition to Family Medicine Training Centre or general out-patient clinics for follow-up treatment, so as to spare places in SOP clinics for handling new patients.
The PWH has also been improving the environment of specialist clinics as well as the consultation procedures and comfort of patients. For instances, the new Eye Centre opened last year has an increase in area by 60% as compared with the old clinic, the expansion of the psychiatric clinic has also been completed.
As regards A&E service, the PWH will continue to actively recruit doctors to fill the vacancies in the A&E Department. At present, staff have been deployed from other departments (such as the Department of Family Medicine) to the A&E Department, part-time doctors have been recruited and support has been sought from doctors who are willing to work extra shifts or sessions through the Special Honorarium Scheme. As for nursing manpower, nine 12126 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
additional nurses were deployed to the A&E Department of the PWH in April 2013 to relieve the work pressure of front-line staff. Other contingency measures include increasing the A&E Nurse Clinic sessions from two days a week to seven days a week, subject to the manpower situation. Non-emergency and mild trauma cases will be treated by nurse specialists so that doctors could attend to patients in critical condition.
The PWH plans to launch a mobile phone application this year, providing real time information on the number of semi-urgent and non-urgent patients waiting in the A&E Department as well as the waiting time needed. Information on local private doctors available for services will also be provided for reference of the public so that they can make their own choices on the suitable consultation channels.
To cater for the increasing demand for in-patient services, the PWH will provide 30 day beds at the Medical Ambulatory Care Centre in 2013-2014 to divert the non-emergency cases of acute wards and alleviate the access block at the A&E. Besides, three High Dependency Unit beds will be added, 1 500 psychiatric consultation liaison attendances will be provided at the A&E department for patients with probable mental health problems to facilitate timely assessment and early intervention and reduce unnecessary admissions.
In-patient wards of the PWH have speeded up the workflow of discharge and transfer of patients to rehabilitation hospitals with a view to vacating beds and receiving in-patients as soon as possible. Beds will be added where necessary to receive patients from other specialties who are in stable condition. During the peak seasons of influenza, the community outreach nursing team will extend service to seven days a week, and strengthen visits to local residential care homes for the elderly so as to reduce the need for hospitalization of their residents. Direct admission to Shatin Hospital (without going through the A&E Department) will be arranged for the elderly as necessary to alleviate the burden on the A&E Department.
To relieve the work pressure on the front-line staff, an additional 31 nursing graduates will be deployed to the Department of Medicine in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12127
August this year. The PWH is drafting its work plan for 2014-2015 to apply for funds for adding medical beds and enhancing the ambulatory services so as to reduce the admission needs of patients.
In the long run, the phase two expansion project of the PWH will be implemented to alleviate the shortage of acute beds in the district and shorten the waiting time for in-patient admission.
(d) The table below sets out the number of general beds in the HA per 1 000 population by hospital cluster in 2012-2013 (excluding infirmary, mentally ill and mentally handicapped beds).
Number of general beds Hospital cluster per 1 000 population in 2012-2013 (as at 31 March of the year) Hong Kong East 2.5 Hong Kong West 5.3 Kowloon Central 5.9 Kowloon East 2.2 Kowloon West 2.7 New Territories East 2.6 New Territories West 2.0 HA Overall 2.9
Notes:
While the ratio of beds per 1 000 population varies among clusters, the difference in such a ratio cannot be used to compare the level of service provision directly among the clusters because:
(i) in planning for its services, the HA has taken into account a number of factors, including the increase of service demand as a result of population growth and demographic changes, advancement of medical technology, manpower availability as well as organization of services of the clusters and hospitals and the service demand of local community. Population is only one of the factors under consideration;
(ii) patients may receive treatment in hospitals other than those in their own residential districts; and some specialized services are available only in certain hospitals, and hence certain clusters, and the beds in these clusters are providing services for patients throughout the territory.
12128 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
The PWH is revising its phase two redevelopment plan to ensure that the services to be provided upon the completion of the phase two project could better tie in with the demand of the community.
(e) The Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines provide a general indication of the sites reserved by the Government for medical and healthcare services such as public and private hospitals, infirmaries and elderly homes. The HA will take into account a number of factors in planning for the provision of public healthcare services, so as to formulate service development guidelines which better tie in with the demand of the community. For instance, it will project the demand for medical and healthcare services by the public in the short, medium and long term having regard to demographic changes, population growth, the rate of patients seeking cross-district medical treatment, the growth rate of services of individual specialties and changes in healthcare services utilization pattern.
BILLS
Second Reading of Bills
Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bills
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bills. We now resume the Second Reading debate on the Pilotage (Amendment) Bill 2013.
(Originally scheduled to be dealt with at the last Council meeting)
PILOTAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 20 March 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12129
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): President, point of order.
I notice that at the back of this Chamber and around the seats there are still posted many slogans not related to the question today. As a matter of fact, this has affected the image of this Council in the eyes of the public and it does not comply with the Rules of Procedure. I hope the President can make a ruling. Is there a need now to suspend the meeting in order that all these slogans not related to the question today can be removed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you, Mr TSE, for pointing this out. I notice that the articles on display at the several seats in the back are actually about contents of the last meeting. Since Members cannot leave their seats while a meeting is in progress and go over to the other side of the Chamber, I now suspend the meeting for five minutes. Will Mr CHAN Chi-chuen with the help of the staff here please remove the articles on display not related to this meeting?
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I would also like to raise a point of order. May I ask which provisions in the Rules of Procedure stipulate that articles or notices displayed by Members must be related to the topic of a debate? Would you please tell me which provisions carry such stipulation?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, previously when you put forward your view regarding the display of articles by Members in this Chamber, I already explained to you that there are no stipulations in the Rules of Procedure in this regard. But pursuant to precedents and the consensus reached during the past two terms of this Council, articles brought into the Chamber by Members shall meet the following two requirements: first, these articles will not pose any obstruction to other Members or public officers in attendance, in particular, they will not obstruct Members in maintaining eye contact with their Honourable colleagues or affect their attendance of the meeting; second, the articles concerned must be related to items on the Agenda. We have issued a circular to Members on this subject and if Members are not clear about it, I shall ask the Secretariat to reissue the circular.
12130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, first, I do not know why you people did not remove these articles last night and second, President, you mentioned my name just now, but they are not mine and they may be Mr Albert CHAN's. You may ask the staff to remove them and return them to him or ask him to come back and remove them.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you for drawing my attention to this. It could be that the meeting ended quite late last night and there may be no staff to remove the display articles. This is an omission.
I now suspend the meeting for five minutes to enable the staff to remove these articles on display.
4.34 pm
Meeting suspended.
4.40 pm
Council then resumed.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, what is your point?
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): A quorum is not present in the Chamber. I request a headcount.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members back to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members returned to the Chamber)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12131
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We now resume the Second Reading debate of the Pilotage (Amendment) Bill 2013.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Pilotage (Amendment) Bill 2013 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Pilotage (Amendment) Bill 2013.
Council went into Committee.
Committee Stage
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.
12132 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
PILOTAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the Pilotage (Amendment) Bill 2013.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 to 13.
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That clauses 1 to 13 stand part of the Bill. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council will now resume.
Council then resumed.
Third Reading of Bills
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12133
PILOTAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, the
Pilotage (Amendment) Bill 2013 has passed through Committee without amendment. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Pilotage (Amendment) Bill 2013 be read the Third time and do pass.
Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Pilotage (Amendment) Bill 2013.
12134 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bills
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We now resume the Second Reading debate on the District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013.
DISTRICT COUNCILS (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 20 February 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him, Chairman of the Bills Committee to study the above Bill will address this Council on the report of the Bills Committee.
MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): President, in my capacity as Chairman of the District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013, I now submit the report of the Bills Committee to this Council and brief Members on the highlights of the deliberations made by the Bills Committee. The Bills Committee has held a total of three meetings and heard the views from members of the public.
The District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bill) proposes amendments to the District Councils Ordinance and other relevant subsidiary legislation to abolish the system of appointing members to District Councils (DCs) by the Chief Executive with effect from 1 January 2016, that is, the commencement date of the fifth term of the DCs.
Members of the Bills Committee in general have expressed support for the proposals made in the Bill. Some Members consider that the appointed members have also made significant contribution to the work of the DCs, but they support the proposed abolition as it has the support of the public and ties in with the constitutional development in Hong Kong. Some other Members consider that the DCs should comprise all directly elected members, they therefore support the proposal to abolish all DC appointed seats.
The Bills Committee has discussed in detail the impact of the proposed abolition of the appointed seats on the operation of the DCs. Some Members have expressed concern that with the abolition of all DC appointed seats, DCs LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12135 with a small elected membership may have difficulty in maintaining effective operation and the provision of services to the public. They have asked whether the Administration would consider increasing the number of elected seats correspondingly for these DCs when their appointed seats are abolished, and whether the proposed abolition would entail a review of the boundaries of the DC constituencies.
The Administration has advised that the number of elected seats and its increase is generally linked to the population. Currently, the number of elected seats is based on the latest population distribution projections. The Administration would work out the number of elected seats for each DC, taking into account the population quota and other relevant considerations. It will revert to the Panel on Constitutional Affairs on the review of the number of elected seats for the fifth term DCs at the Panel meeting this month.
Some Members consider that the ex officio seats in the DCs should also be abolished so that DCs would comprise all directly elected members. Some other Members, however, consider that the public have diverse views on the matter and no consensus has been reached yet. The Administration has explained that the 27 ex officio members in various New Territories DCs are Rural Committee Chairmen who have individually gone through the relevant election procedure to become ex officio members under the District Councils Ordinance. Moreover, public opinions differ on whether to retain the ex officio seats in the DCs. On these bases, the Administration has no plan at present to abolish the ex officio seats in the DCs.
Some Members have suggested that the Administration should consider reviewing the name of "ex officio members" and changing the name as "indirectly-elected members" so as to avoid misunderstanding by the public. Ex officio members are appointed by the Government without going through any election. The Administration has advised that the suggestion should be considered in the context of an overall review of the ex officio membership of DCs. Some Members have requested the Administration to commence the review as early as possible.
President, the above are my remarks on the report of the work of the Bills Committee. I will now speak on the views of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) on the Bill.
12136 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
The amendments proposed by the Administration to the District Councils Ordinance relate mainly to the abolition of all DC appointed seats. These amendments do not touch on other issues such as DC boundaries, duties and the electoral system. In the course of scrutiny of the Bill, the Bills Committee has held public hearings. Members of the public and representatives of political parties, including those from the Civic Party and the Democratic Party, who attended the public hearings think that an abolition of the DC appointed seats alone is not enough and a reform should be carried out on the electoral system of DCs.
In fact, in a Panel meeting two days ago, Mr Ronny TONG and Ms Emily LAU expressed a similar view. Mr Ronny TONG pointed out that currently the DCs adopt a small constituency system and the result is that there is not enough acceptability of DC members. Therefore, the constituencies should be enlarged and DC members should be returned by a proportional representation system.
However, I have great reservations about this suggestion. I wish to use of this opportunity to ask Mr TONG this question. When a DC member is returned by "one person, one vote" and through a lawful procedure, how can we say that there is not enough acceptability? In 2011, Mr TONG took part in the DC elections and his opponent was elected by some 3 000 votes. How can he say that there is not enough acceptability of his opponent?
The scholar, Mr LUI Tai-lok, has written on the question of what is meant by "acceptability" and how to foster the same. He pointed out that the key to fostering acceptability is performance. Even though a DC member is returned in a small constituency, if only he or she is willing to do practical work to serve the people, he or she will command public recognition and there is acceptability for that DC member. On the contrary, if a DC member is returned in a large constituency, but that member does not do practical work to serve the people, I am sure that he or she will be abandoned by the public for failing to do any practical work for the people after the election. In such circumstances, the member may lose his or her acceptability. So I find it hard to accept the idea that DC members are returned from small constituencies and hence they have no acceptability. I would also consider this as an unfair criticism and accusation of DC members.
I think Members will understand that DC members returned from large constituencies under the proportional representation system are certainly at a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12137 more advantageous position compared to candidates who do not have a good service record at the district level but only "parachuted" into a constituency by dint of their familiarity in the eyes of the public. But those candidates who do not enjoy such familiarity will be at a disadvantage. I am sure the constituents have discerning eyes and they know well whether or not a candidate has done any practical work for the community. The system of a small constituency presently adopted in the DC elections currently is meant to let constituents have a greater opportunity to know their DC members. If only the candidates have done practical work for the constituents, even if the constituents are not familiar with them or know them not well enough, they will get the support of the public.
During the numerous DC elections held in the past, many Members of the Legislative Council who can be called stars in politics and are well-known throughout Hong Kong parachuted into certain constituencies and run for DC elections, but they were defeated by people from the district who did not have such familiarity with the constituents but nevertheless had been doing practical work in the district. This shows that the present small constituency system works well.
Ms Emily LAU pointed out two days ago in a Panel meeting that DC members are not representative because there are only some 10 000 constituents in a DC constituency. She questioned when DC members discharged their duties in such a small constituency, they would be hampered by short-sightedness and the result would be the failure to groom political talents.
As far as I know, the policy objective of setting up DCs is to enable DC members to provide tailor-made services to solve district problems. Now each DC member serves an average of some 17 000 people. In the view of the DAB, this number is appropriate. If the population quota is enlarged, it would be difficult for DC members to forge a close relationship with the residents and when residents meet a DC member on the streets, they may not know that the member is a DC member of the district where they live.
Some people think that it is impossible for this system to groom political talents. I consider this argument will not hold water. There are many Members of this Council who used to be DC members or are DC members at the same time. These Members include those from the pan-democratic camp like Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Frederick FUNG and Mr SIN Chung-kai. They are either serving DC members or former DC members. I 12138 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 therefore find Ms LAU's comment that the DC system cannot nurture any political talents incomprehensible.
I would advise certain Members that they should not attack the present DC electoral system because the political parties to which they belong were defeated in the last DC Election. These Members should not be wilfully look down on the large number of DC members with such a condescending tone.
In the view of the DAB, there is no need to change the present DC electoral system. My reaction after my defeat in the DC Election in 2003 was that I would stage a comeback from exactly where I failed. Both DAB members and I will not blame the electoral system for the defeat in the election. In 2007 and under the same electoral system, the DAB managed to win 115 DC seats and the success rate of our candidates was 64%. As for me, I could manage to fulfil the pledge I made to the people of Hong Kong and returned to the Central and Western DC by winning 85% of the votes. In 2011, the DAB won 136 DC seats and our rate of success was 74%. All these are facts of history of the DC elections in Hong Kong.
The DAB agrees to the Government's move to abolish all DC appointed seats for the sake of fostering the development of democracy in Hong Kong. But on the other hand, as a representative of the DC Constituency in this Council, I must say something fair for appointed DC members. I wish to tell the people of Hong Kong that there are no appointed DC members in my Constituency who can vote in this election as only elected DC members are eligible. So irrespective of elected or appointed DC members, as far as what I have learnt during my close to 20 years' work in the DCs, there are no differences between them in nature and as a matter of fact. They both serve the local residents in their respective constituencies.
Some Members of this Council from the pan-democratic camp are always saying that appointed DC members are the result of giving away of political free lunches. I cannot agree to this view. There is no such thing as free lunch in this world. The Government will not appoint any person into a DC if he or she has not done any practical work to serve the people of that particular district and if the person does not have any track record of that.
I fully recognize the contribution made by appointed DC members in the districts. There are many appointed DC members who perform as well as DC LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12139 members returned by popular elections. For example, some years ago in Sham Shui Po there was a case of objects thrown from a height. The appointed DC members of that district raised a fund of some $400,000 and a CCTV system was installed in the old buildings. Some appointed DC members used the remuneration they received as DC members to sponsor district activities or promote district affairs. These are very common and such DC members also include the few appointed DC members of the Central and Western DC. They have really used their remuneration to support activities to serve the people.
Many appointed DC members work very hard in the districts and this is evident to all. According to information from the Home Affairs Bureau, the attendance rate of appointed DC members in the DC meetings is very high. For some of them, they had been very active in serving the community before they took part in politics. So when they are appointed to the DC, they are elected as chairman of that DC by the DC members. For some of them, after they had built a certain popularity base, they took part in DC election of this term and they won. This shows that they are recognized by constituents.
It is the hope of the DAB that after appointed DC seats are abolished, the Government will commence a study on providing another mechanism for locals to have more opportunities of taking part in district affairs.
With these remarks, President, I support the Bill.
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): President, I have listened very carefully to the speech given by Mr IP Kwok-him on behalf of the DAB regarding this Bill. However, in terms of logic and after listening to Mr IP, I think that the DAB should oppose this Amendment Bill because he has said a lot on the contribution made by appointed DC members and their great achievements. They are considered exceptional talents and they have served the community wholeheartedly and with dedication, even to the extent of taking money out from their pockets to solve problems in the districts. These are tasks which even the Government finds impossible to do, but they have taken the lead to complete them. We should therefore keep these appointed DC members and defend them. We should not just be saying a few words for them, thinking that these can give them a fair deal and defend their reputation, then vote later to support the Government to abolish the system of appointed DC members.
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President, I am a professor in political science and international relations. I have joined the democratic camp for more than 20 years and I am a staunch supporter of it. About the appointed DC members system, what we are talking about are institutional problems. Of course, there are bound to be good persons, dedicated persons and hardworking persons who benefit from this system. Doubtless there are people who want to contribute their part to the present and future development of Hong Kong. There are certainly such people around. But how many of them are there? Are there any people who simply occupy the office and do nothing? Or are there people who want the appointment by the Government only to pave the way for some other matters? I have no idea, but I cannot rule out the possibility. So Mr IP Kwok-him, honestly, this discussion is not about people, their character or the question of human nature. It is a question of the system. When we talk about a system, we have to look at its development. As a matter of fact, what we discuss today is actually a system which is already moribund and defunct. This is an appointment system which the last Governor of Hong Kong, Chris PATTEN, had abolished during the British Hong Kong era of the last century. At that time, we were talking about full-scale direct elections. However, after the reunification, TUNG Chee-hwa revived this moribund and defunct system. It was amazing to see how he did it. And now we have to talk about this issue today and this appointment system is to be abolished in phases and in a so-called gradual and orderly manner.
The Civic Party, I myself and the democrats will certainly support the abolition of the appointment system. Do you know that there will be great troubles for some DCs if this system of appointed DC members is not abolished? In a representative council which used to be returned by popular elections and which has a popular mandate, even if individual members have a certain degree of representativeness, the various political parties and groupings have to compete under a fair system. But after the election is over, the situation could be that there is only a difference of a matter of a few seats between the democrats and the pro-establishment camp, and the democrats may even enjoy a slight advantage. But with the appointment system, the Government will add in a number of appointed DC members. The result can therefore be reversed. This is a grave defect of the system, something we have been criticizing for years.
We wish to discuss two issues today. President, the first is the functions and status of DCs. In this regard, I would often have an impression that even Honourable colleagues from the pro-establishment camp would share our feelings. Mr IP Kwok-him said just now that DC members provide tailor-made LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12141 services to the residents and solve their problems. I agree very much with the first part of this argument. It is because even if we are returned by direct elections and even if the Legislative Council is a big constituency, we have to do our best for our constituents, regardless of whether they have supported us. We should provide them with tailor-made services. But as to the question of solving problems at the district level, given the present functions, resources and power of the DCs, can they really help the people solve problems at the district level? Often as we walk on the streets, we can see many DC members use some pet terms to describe their work, such as "strongly demand" and "have fought successfully" to get something done. May be in recent years, these words have changed to "continue to demand" and "continue to fight". Of course, these fights and demands are what we should do as Members. I would also do these things. But do DCs have this function? Do they have the resources? Can they make the Government willing to discuss how problems can be solved in the DCs? I am sure those Honourable colleagues who have been DC members or who have studied the DCs or who care about DCs or the development of district government will think that this is impossible. These include many people from the academic circle whom I know and who are not Members of this Council. We have a previous example to which we can refer, that is, the abolition of the two Municipal Councils after the reunification.
There is this question which is often asked. If the functions of the DCs are enhanced, and if their resources are increased, or even, if they are given a certain amount of power of policymaking, would this constitute a contravention of the Basic Law? I do not think so. Because in the case of the two Municipal Councils, there was a smooth transition for them after the reunification. How can the functions of the DCs be fully enhanced? This is a very meaningful question to ponder over. When dealing with this question, about the grooming of political talents and the development of policies, and as Mr IP Kwok-him just said, how tailor-made services can be provided and problems in the districts solved at the same time? This will give us some sort of a direction in this respect.
However, as I have said on various occasions, once the issue of DCs is involved, Mr IP Kwok-him would become very annoyed. Today Secretary Raymond TAM is in attendance. But it turns out that once the issue of the functions of DCs is involved, Secretary TSANG Tak-shing should be in attendance too. If either one of them is not here, it would be difficult for us to discuss this question. Therefore, I have tried to find the chairmen of two panels, 12142 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 that is, Mr MA Fung-kwok and Mr TAM Yiu-chung, in the hope of asking them to come to the meeting. This issue has been discussed since the meeting in October. Both Members from the pro-establishment camp and the democrats say that it is time that a review should be conducted. But what we can discuss or deal with today is only the abolition of these appointed seats. I think we can also discuss issues like the size of the constituencies and what kind of electoral system should be adopted. I do not think we should force ourselves to choose between "single seat, single vote" or "proportional representation". President, if we are to engage in some rational, systematic and effective discussions, I can say frankly that we should refer to the system of "single seat, single vote" adopted in the United Kingdom. There is a long history of that system in practice there. However, after 1997, the Labour Government of Tony BLAIR engaged in a devolution of powers to the district level and certain new concepts were introduced to carry out a reform in local government. In the assemblies in Wales and Scotland, there are elections held under the "single seat, single vote" system while the proportional representation system is also used in the second vote. This will enable the assemblies to further manifest representativeness. For Honourable colleagues interested in reforms in the local administration and in the electoral system, this kind of mixed-mode election should not be regarded as trivia or new knowledge but common sense. Persons without this kind of common sense will appear to be very stubborn, conservative and very defensive of their position when they talk about issues like these. They are afraid of being criticized by others as not having enough power and ability, not representative enough or lacking acceptability. When the functions of a political assembly are enhanced, it is natural that there will be more resources and matching policies. These can ensure that our local administrative system can offer services which better meet public demands and solve district problems. There will no longer be the situation like the meetings between Members of the Council and DC members where it is always claimed that matters cannot be handled in the DCs and requests are made to follow up the matters in the panels of this Council. For example, we have to follow up issues like light pollution and droppings of birds on the streets. This is really weird. It can only proves that district administration is not effective and it has even failed.
After talking about enhancing the functions and conducting a review, I hope that the two Secretaries can sit down together and tackle this problem. What I can do is trying my best at the beginning of last October to arrange for an appointment with Secretary TSANG Tak-shing. I hoped to get my friends from the academia for a talk with the Secretary to share our views with him. We LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12143 hoped that we could spur the Secretary into taking greater steps and pondering over the problem. I hope that Secretary Raymond TAM could co-operate. The two Secretaries should not be kicking the ball to the other side of the pitch back and forth. I feel like a boy whose job is to pick up the ball. I have to get the ball as they kick the ball back and forth. If they kick the ball past the line, I have to pick it up. I will have to pick the ball again when they have kicked the ball beyond the line. In this way, they can go on talking.
President, after the abolition of the appointed seats in this exercise, there are still 27 ex officio seats lefts. This is an issue which we should ponder over seriously. Both the Civic Party and I consider that it is worthwhile to raise the issue for discussion now. However, people can give a convenient reason and that is, no consensus has been reached. But it only shows that they are lazy. And so the issue is left unattended. Twenty-seven seats cannot be said to be plenty or small in number. But the office expenses involved are more than $10 million and it is not a small sum at all. In my opinion, as a concept, ex officio seats are really seats of a functional constituency. If our goal is to have all the seats returned by direct elections, we should conduct a review of ex officio seats.
Why should a review not be conducted? Why do I say that ex officio seats are functional constituency seats in the DCs? It is because they represent the views of the villages, or roughly speaking, the views of the rural committees. The representativeness and base of these seats come from the villages. But an interesting thing is that ex officio seats are filled by Chairmen of the Rural Committees. But how is the Chairman of a Rural Committee returned? It is the result of elections held at different levels and from bottom up. If you ask any ordinary villager, when he votes ― no matter if it is a village representative who is an indigenous person or a non-indigenous person ― who will get this ex officio seat and become a DC member, he or she cannot be sure of the answer. This is an electoral system which is indirect and characterized by many levels. Should it not be reviewed? I am sure there are problems with it.
I am not denigrating persons with a rural background or who hold or represent views or interests of the villages of getting into the DCs. But they can choose other channels to take part in the elections, or they can choose to run in direct elections. Why should an ex officio member be returned in such a complicated and indirect manner? Or in terms of district administration, the DCs and rural committees may set up channels for co-ordination or 12144 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 communication in the system or organization, and there is no need to add some ex officio seats to the DCs in an arbitrary manner.
When we were discussing this issue, there was this resident from Sha Tin who came to this public hearing session. When I raised these queries, he expressed grave concern. He said, "Dr CHAN, I do not know if you have lived in Sha Tin before. I can tell you that there are 600 000 people living in Sha Tin and there is one rural committee." I thought, is this person trying to impress me with the size of the population in Sha Tin, that is, an ex officio DC member can represent 600 000 residents? I am sure it was not his point. No single person can claim that he represents 600 000 people. I do not think a Chairman of a Rural Committee can say that. It was certainly not what he meant. I have lived in Sha Tin, Tai Wai and Fo Tan. So I can say that I am almost a Sha Tin person. Although I am living in Tai Po now, I can say that I know much about Sha Tin and issues like its history and the environment there.
Let us return to the question of system. Just how many electors are there in a rural committee election or an election for a village representative? I can tell you frankly that there are only some 1 000. In the case of Sha Tin, a village representative is returned by some 100 votes at most or just some 20 to 30 votes. These were the election results of rural representatives in Sha Tin in 2011. This is a fact. It remains, of course, that feelings are very subjective. It is fine when someone feels good about himself. But this good feeling cannot become a reason which gives full support to ex officio seats, saying that there should not be any review of them and there is no need to take an objective and rational stand to handle the issue and there should not be any query of it. So I would think that there should be a review in the near future of the functions of DCs, the resources allocated to DCs and the ex officio seats in the DCs ― or what I would call functional constituency seats.
Lastly, President, I wish to talk about the demarcation of constituencies. This is because in the reform this time, some constituencies in certain DCs will be put under great pressure. In the case of Wan Chai, there are 11 seats left and the amount of work and responsibilities to be borne are huge. How should problems regarding the Wan Chai DC be handled? These problems do not appear because the Wan Chai DC goes about finding such problems but because it has to deal with a large number of issues. But there are only 11 DC members there. So how should work be done? Or in the case of the Outlying Islands DC which covers a very large area but a relatively small population, there are only 10 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12145 directly elected seats. How should this problem be handled? A suggestion made is to incorporate certain constituencies in Island East into the Wan Chai DC.
A few days ago, Secretary Raymond TAM briefed members of the Panel on Constitutional Affairs on these ideas. I wish to use this opportunity to urge the Government and Secretary Raymond TAM to stop talking and take actions. The issue of demarcation of administrative districts can be raised for discussion seriously. Of course, the problems involved may not just be how boundaries are to be demarcated between Wan Chai and Island East or whether boundaries should be demarcated at all. I have also heard later that other Members would also like to discuss with the Government questions regarding the demarcation of Kowloon City and Wong Tai Sin. Would this be the right time to do so? We can discuss issues like the demarcation of administrative districts, the functions of DCs, the electoral system and even reform of the ex officio seats all in one go. The Secretary may not be able to undertake a large-scale constitutional reform. But this is certainly his responsibility, something he must do under "one country, two systems". And he has to do it at once and well.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, I am honoured that Mr IP Kwok-him mentioned in his speech my crushing defeat in the 2011 District Council (DC) Election. It is a great pity that he did not have much patience, unwilling to stay in the Chamber to hear my response.
President, I wonder if he was criticizing or teasing me, or bragging about the ability of the pro-establishment camp in the Election or the co-ordination ability of the Liaison Office of the Central People's Government (LOCPG). As a politician, I certainly accept criticisms. I have to admit that I did not rise from the DC. In order to fight for a chance to run for a "super DC seat", however, I had spent two years in City One, Sha Tin. My election campaign team, including my wife and me, had 10 persons in total. Given that the number of votes gained by the previous pro-democracy candidate was less than 1 000, I thought I was very successful in securing 1 500 votes, an increase of 50%, out of the 4 600 votes cast in the City One, Sha Tin Constituency in 2011, compared to less than 3 000 votes cast in the previous DC Election.
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Although Mr IP Kwok-him might be teasing me, I feel honoured despite my defeat. If we look at the figures, we will find that the overall turnout rate in the whole territory was 41.5% in 2011, the turnout rate in Sha Tin was 41.03% but, President, do you have any idea of the turnout rate in City One, Sha Tin? It was 56%. Mr WONG Ka-wing and I attracted the highest turnout rate in Hong Kong history. So far, no other candidates have been able to attract a turnout rate close to 56%. President, I was really flattered. Given that my only desire was to contest the "super DC seat", was there any need to mobilize such a large machine to set the territory-wide voting record?
If Mr IP Kwok-him thinks that it reflects the ability of the pro-establishment camp in the Election or the co-ordination ability of the LOCPG, why does he not support universal suffrage? He will definitely win. If 413 Ronny TONGs in the territory ran in the DC Election, it might arouse the interest of Hong Kong people in the Election, and the turnout rate in every Election might exceed 50%. However, history tells us that the turnout rate of the DC Election has all along remained at 30% to 40%. The turnout rate of the last Election was already among the highest. President, what does it mean? It means that members of the public are not satisfied with the DC Election. It is not that they do not have any polling desire. We can see that the turnout rate of the Legislative Council Election, which stood at 45%, was high. But honestly, many people might really not be very interested in selecting a representative of just a couple of streets. If we are to arouse their interest, we must tell them that the DC Election can really help them.
President, we have waited exactly, or at least, eight years for the Bill under discussion today. Our first public appeal for the abolition of the appointed DC seats was made in the 2005 constitutional reform package, though the latter was vetoed by the pro-democrats. Although we made an appeal for the abolition of the appointment system again in the 2011 constitutional reform package, the Government was reluctant to or, I should say, dared not do so. Despite the grand speeches delivered by Mr IP Kwok-him, why did he not tell the Government that "we will render our full support to implementing election by universal suffrage for the Legislative Council and, given the enormous electoral machinery behind us as well as the constant supply of resources, there is no need to be frightened".
President, I finally realized the truth after running in the DC Election. Compared to my election campaign team which had only 11 persons, including LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12147 my wife, the election campaign teams of other candidates might each comprise a hundred people and be able to organize Tai Chi classes, dancing classes, and so on, all day long. They will certainly win, so what are they afraid of? Why do they not embrace universal suffrage? President, given that the pro-establishment camp can win in the Election in such a beautiful fashion, I very much hope that they can resolutely hold onto their position to become the largest ruling party in Hong Kong and gain the majority seats in the Legislative Council. I will give them a big hand, provided that universal suffrage is implemented.
President, let me come back to the DC Election. Why did I appeal to the Secretary to take this opportunity to take a step forward? One of my reasons given just now is that we have waited, or lagged behind, for eight years. Should we not seize this opportunity to catch up some lost ground? President, I once openly asked the Secretary how he came up with the figure of having one constituency serving 17 000 residents, but he was unable to give me an answer. It appears that the number of residents served can vary from 15 000 to 12 000 and even 20 000. If the number of residents is 17 000, according to the assumed ratio of our constituents of 40% or 50%, the number of constituents who can actually vote …… I am referring to the general picture rather than City One, Sha Tin. As 56% is an unprecedented record, mine is an extreme example and hence cannot be used as reference.
Generally speaking, if a constituency has 17 000 residents, the maximum number of its constituents is one half of it, or 5 000 to 6 000. As I said just now, the turnout rate of the DC Election generally remains at around 30%, with the highest turnout rate being 41% to 42%. Even if there are 6 000 constituents, a 40% or so turnout rate would mean 2 000-odd votes. As I pointed out just now, 2 000 is just an average number. In the previous DC Election, the turnout rate of City One, Sha Tin was precisely between 2 000 and 3 000, which can be considered high already.
If there are 2 000 to 3 000 votes and two rather than three candidates ― do not use my example because, as I pointed out just now, it is not a good example, as some people were determined not to let me win the "super DC seat" ― in an ordinary example, as the number of votes gained by each candidate is to several hundred and 1 000, several dozen or a hundred votes will be the key to victory or defeat.
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President, even the games of rock, paper, scissors have been played. There were times when candidates having won the same number of votes had to resort to playing the game. How great was the chance? In some circumstances, there was a difference of several votes only. When Mr IP Kwok-him was beaten by Ms Cyd HO in the Kwun Lung Lau Constituency, I being Bar Association chairman declared my intention in the press of dragging him down, and he ultimately lost by a margin of six votes …… was it six votes? Excuse me, it should be 60 votes. How much acceptance can be gained by a DC member who has won by a margin of 60 votes? Certainly, the acceptance gained by a DC member elected through "one person one vote", however small is the margin of victory, is still greater than that by an appointed or ex officio member, but an elected member can still not live up to the expectations of the constituents or residents.
Hence, we call on the Government to expand the constituencies and enhance the popular mandate of DC members. I do not mean that direct elections lack popular mandate. It is only that we hope to enhance the popular mandate of DC members, so that they can get more resources to do more for the residents, and prevent political forces at the district level from becoming scattered. The goal of the Government is to scatter political forces at the district level by all means, or most preferably turn it into a tray of loose sand, because nothing can then be done by them.
If we can enhance the representativeness and resources of districts, I believe Hong Kong people will definitely stand to benefit. So, why do we not do it? President, I do not mean that the proportional representation system must be adopted. However, if the 400-odd seats must be retained because some people earn a living by being a DC member, they will become jobless if the number of DC seats is reduced.
Never mind, let us expand the constituencies, so that a few more seats can be added under the proportional representation system. Certainly, I am not insisting that this system must be adopted. If the popular mandate of DC members can be enhanced and resources at their disposal increased, this system will definitely be better than the existing one.
However, the Secretary has simply missed this opportunity. I wonder whether another opportunity will arise in the future. I have waited for eight years for the abolition of appointed DC seats. I wonder for how many years I LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12149 still have to wait before universal suffrage will be introduced. President, I am talking about genuine, not bogus universal suffrage. Sometimes, when it comes to the issue of constitutional reform, I cannot but feel sad.
It has been nine years since I first joined this Council, and it is the first time I witness the abolition of the DC appointment system. President, has this nine-year wait been a waste of time? Despite my criticisms of the Secretary, we will definitely support the Bill. We cannot possibly oppose it because it is what we have been fighting for. Despite it has come too late and too little, we will render it our support after all.
Originally, I did not intend to rise to speak, but I think I have to give a response after hearing the lecture given by Mr IP Kwok-him. I hope he can hear my comments on the television upstairs. Thank you, President.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, being a newcomer, I thought that the arguments advanced by Mr IP Kwok-him, as my predecessor or a veteran Legislative Council Member, would definitely have more depth in terms of policy, but unfortunately, I am a bit disappointed.
First of all, I wish to say that the SAR Government has not moved an inch in district administration, even though it has been nearly 16 years since the handover of sovereignty. Furthermore, there has been retrogression over the past many years. Let us refer to international experience. Many political leaders and figures seized and exercised actual administrative power through their training at the district level and elections to build their hands-on experience and political skills. This has been the case for many people in our Motherland, China, other parts of Asia, European countries and the United States, too. Soon after the reunification, however, "Uncle TUNG" revived the appointment system, thereby significantly delaying democratization and leading to the dissolution of the two Municipal Councils subsequently. The dissolution of the two Municipal Councils, which possessed actual powers like the city councils in overseas countries, has dealt a serious blow to the training of political talents in Hong Kong.
The political parties to which Mr IP Kwok-him or other Members belong are simply going against the trend of party politics and making preparations for the implementation of universal suffrage in Hong Kong. President, you used to 12150 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 be Chairman of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB). It appears that you as Chairman of the DAB and people in the same generation as you have been assigned the duty of assisting the SAR Government in delaying the democratization of Hong Kong, rather than assisting Hong Kong in making preparations for tasks considered by me to be very important such as achieving "one country, two systems", "Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong" and "a high degree of autonomy", in the wake of the reunification of Hong Kong.
I wish to emphasize that the significance of the two Municipal Councils at that time was attributed to their possession of powers in terms of formulation of district policies, appointment of officers and financial autonomy, for which DCs have been fighting for years. At that time, not only did a certain percentage of rates revenue go to the Urban Council, its annual budget even amounted to hundreds of million dollars. President, now the annual expenditure for the 18 DCs is just several hundred million dollars, which means that each DC is allocated only $10 million to $20 million. In comparison, the highlight projects committed by the Chief Executive of the current term at a cost of $100 million are merely a drop in the ocean.
The mission of DCs is not to spend money for the sake of it. Instead, they should co-operate properly with government departments, through making proposals for and promoting district works, with a view to upgrading the level of administration of the Government at the district level, training political talents and boosting the sense of belonging among the people, rather than concentrating efforts on the "organization of feasts and repairs of pipes" ― repairing sewers, fresh water mains or seawater mains, organizing vegetarian and snake feasts, giving away seasonal delicacies, and so on. According to academics, this is just trivial district welfarism, or the so-called practical tasks frequently mentioned by our colleague, Mr IP Kwok-him. President, have I performed such tasks before? Having been a DC member for 13 years, I certainly have done so before. However, such tasks must not take up most of the time of DC members. Organizing leisure activities through district welfarism to get involved in the lives of the people in order to keep tabs on the pulse of the community and get to know the people's needs for district facilities and services is what DC members should do.
What did the "practical work" mentioned by Mr IP Kwok-him refer to? I recall that after the landslide victory of Mr TAM Yiu-chung in 2011, he cited the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12151 experience of one of the winning female candidates in the Kwai Tsing District. He said that she accompanied a female kaifong who found the leather peeling off from her handbag to have it replaced. It was indeed a most intimate service. Do we have to use public funds to enable a DC member to accompany the woman to replace her handbag? Certainly not. It was a waste of public money. Sometimes, a DC member might accompany a person who has not been treated fairly to report to the police or go to the Labour Tribunal. We are supposed to do so rather than offering little favours, organizing snake feasts or giving away seasonal delicacies.
I remember very clearly that Mr TAM Yiu-chung, the Member mentioned by Mr IP Kwok-him just now, was my opponent during the DC Election in 1999. Now, he is among the leaders of the DAB. What would he do during the Election? He would use a loudspeaker to remind kaifongs to collect their clothes when it rained or ask them to claim a found wallet. Should DC members perform these tasks? I think they just need to hand over the wallet to the police and post a notice. Should DC members alert kaifongs of the rain and remind them to collect their clothes? They remind me of the role played by LAW Ka-ying in a movie made by Stephen CHOW who reminded people to collect their clothes when it rained.
DC members have been dwarfed by our system, so much so that they are responsible for the localized work of several streets only. As a result, their vision is extremely narrow. President, the Government will thus have to pay the price ― there was enormous resistance when the Chief Executive of the previous term suggested that a columbarium be built in every district. Why did the Chief Executive of the current term mention in the Policy Address the rationalization of bus routes as one of his highlights? Because no DC member would undermine the well-being of the 17 000 to 20 000 people in his or her own district. Hence, after months and years of reform, bus routes are now found serving various districts and making long and winding trips, such that the entire territory can be covered. Under such circumstances, how can visionary planning be made and the level of district administration upgraded? This is impossible. President, this is most regrettable.
We hope that reform, if any, should proceed in the direction of more than simply abolishing the appointment system. Secretary, since I have exchanged my views with you at the panels, a direction should have been set. To move towards the goal of "Hong Kong ruling Hong Kong" and "a high degree of 12152 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 autonomy", the functions of DCs must be substantially upgraded and changed to become more than an advisory framework. It is possible to do so, and the provisions of the Basic Law will not be violated as a result. Training political talents to enable them to take the actual ropes of power is the only way to enable DC members in Hong Kong to take part in politics in a more responsible manner.
It is a more arduous task for a DC member serving a constituency of 17 000 to 22 000 people to stand in the Legislative Council Election than landing on the moon. President, the size of the population is more than 80 times bigger. Taking a leap from serving a constituency of 20 000 people to serving one of more than 1 million people is unimaginable. In performing the tasks after the reunification, the SAR Government has been worse than the government of the colonial era. The colonial government emphasized "three-tier assemblies": For the sake of training, political talents had to first stand in the District Board election; if successful, they should seek to stand in the Regional Council and Urban Council Elections, for the number of constituents in these two Elections was tens of thousands, precisely five to six times the number of constituents in the District Board Election. Should the result turn out to be satisfactory, they should make a further attempt to stand in the Legislative Council Election, in which the size of the constituency would reach hundreds of thousands of people. We must take one step at a time before proper training can be achieved, though it is impossible to do so now.
Regarding our criticism that appointed DC members are like free lunches, Mr IP Kwok-him was right in saying that there is no free lunch in the world. In my opinion, this is the only impartial remark he has ever made. Certainly, DC membership is no free lunch. The SAR Government is indeed using free lunches to win them over in exchange for their political loyalty, so that they will defend the Government at the DC level. President, I remember very clearly that I knew a doctor who was an appointed DC member between 2000 and 2003. During the four-year term of office, he and I were on a united front, and he opposed the Government's bid to regularize football betting and implement local public works. While he was not reappointed by the Government after one term, there was a chance for appointed DC members who were obedient to be reappointed for another term upon the completion of their current term. Even if they did not defend the Government, appointed DC members would prefer to remain silent on some livelihood matters of great import. Is this what we are pleased to see? During our discussions, our colleagues, especially pro-establishment Members, often said that some appointed DC members were LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12153 good, and these problems were dwarfed and regarded as personal problems. Indeed, our discussion has all along been focusing on the system. Even though I am a DC member, I also agree that only through expanding the electorate base of the DC Election can the DC members be trained to have sufficient vision.
President, I also remember the remark made by the Chief Executive that "district problems have to be resolved at the district level". Earlier, the Panel on Environmental Affairs of the Legislative Council inspected the incinerators in South Korea during a study tour. The country was really capable of "resolving district problems at the municipal level". Why? The various municipal councils in the country were required to contemplate ways to reduce the quantity of municipal solid wastes by all means and dispose of the wastes. Of course, members of the municipal councils would refuse to accept wastes shipped from other municipalities. Not only did they have to shoulder responsibilities, they also had to be accountable to the people living in their municipalities. Hence, the number of incinerators under study was progressively expanded from "reducing the number by all means" to "one for every municipality".
Secretary, had the Government divided Hong Kong into five to six municipalities in 2005 or 2006 according to the proposal put forth by the Hong Kong Democratic Development Network, which was similar to a district administration reform proposal, so that each municipality had to deal with their own affairs, be they municipal solid wastes, columbarium or rationalization of bus routes, the result must be better than what is now achieved by the existing 18 DCs. It is not that our colleagues, including Mr James TIEN who is going to speak next, do not see these problems. I remember very clearly the remark he made after the 2003 DC Election ― at that time, members of the Liberal Party were appointed to many DCs in almost every term ― that he earnestly hoped that members of the Liberal Party were appointed for one term only, for they should stand in direct elections four years later. Certainly, it is an arduous task, for enormous hardships will be encountered in the process. Nevertheless, the underlying meaning of this remark is that, in order to fight a tough battle to train political talents, we must go through the baptism of direct elections rather than appointment.
Lastly, I wish to refute a most serious point. Just now, Mr IP Kwok-him accused pro-democracy Members of putting the blame on the electoral system and teased Mr Ronny TONG as well. Did the DAB do very little of such? Before the reunification, the DAB proposed the most significant reform to the 12154 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 electoral system ― President, I suspect you were one of them, too. In 1995, the DAB proposed to the then colonial government turning the electoral system of the Legislative Council from a "single seat, single vote" system to a "proportional representation" system, which is still in use nowadays. Did the DAB not put the blame on the electoral system? It is unfair for the DAB to use the same reason to criticize other political parties, especially the pro-democracy camp.
What we pursue is not the interest of our own political party or the number of seats. We just hope to pursue universal and equal suffrage, so that political parties can develop in a healthy manner. People can only see our real ability through our district work, promotion of policy, monitoring of administration by the Government, our efforts to benefit people's livelihood, and canvassing people for their votes. All of these form the only institutional reform pursued by us. President, I so submit.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, I very much agree with the remark made by Dr Kenneth CHAN earlier, that he did not understand why Mr IP Kwok-him would support this Bill. Indeed, apart from the comment that "I would support it", Mr IP did not say anything showing genuine support for the Bill. Particularly on the appointment of Members, I heard him mention eight to 10 merits of the system but not any demerit of it. In fact, I hoped that he would point out several demerits of the system, so that I can follow and develop the points further in my speech. Regrettably, I have no clues to follow, for he did not say a word about the demerits of the appointment system. At the end of his speech, he even said that having abolished the appointment system this time around, the Government must take care of and identify ways to comfort the appointees. President, the critical problem lies in here. Actually, I find it very strange. Debates in the legislature are comparable to the adjudication by a judge. It is almost two sides of a coin, "head" and "tail", depending on which side is chosen. Today, they choose to support abolishing the appointment system, so they make remarks in this direction, but if they oppose it, they will tell quite another story. Yet, no matter what they say, their remarks are confined to the same frame. This is the most undesirable point.
Members all know that I can be regarded as the most senior of the District Council (DC) Members in this Chamber. I have been a DC Member together with James since 1985. James left midway, but I have stayed to this day. I have gone through the many phases and witnessed the changes of the DCs. As LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12155
Dr Kenneth CHAN said, the most significant change was the transient abolition of the appointment system during Chris PATTEN's era. In the past, many considered the appointment system indispensable. However, the DCs of that term, which did not include any appointed members, did run smoothly as usual in serving the public and society, did it not? Therefore, I see no reason for supporting the appointment system.
Earlier on, Mr Gary FAN expressed his agreement with Mr IP Kwok-him's remark that "appointed membership is no free lunch". I also agree with the remark that "it is no free lunch". Apart from protecting and defending the authorities, appointed members in the early years in general shared one condition, they would be the one footing the bill, yet it may be somehow different now. Money is important. More often than not, in district affairs, when the Home Affairs Department (HAD) wanted to organize certain activities but lacked or was short of money, it would seek assistance from these people. Therefore, the more money one contributed, the greater chance he would be appointed a DC member. In this sense, it is definitely no free lunch, and the amount of resource contribution is significant. These appointed members can be classified into two types. The first type needs to exchange money for reputation; and the second type sometimes needs to abandon their stance in order to protect and defend the authorities. Therefore, they cannot win any acceptability after all. When it comes to recognition, I am not referring to the acceptability of the Government but that of the public, for the acceptability of the latter is of the utmost importance. I find something very strange about the issue of acceptability. Earlier on, Mr IP Kwok-him commented on the remarks made by Mr Ronny TONG, saying that the merit of Mr Ronny TONG's proposal of expanding the constituencies, as well as adopting the proportional representation system, for the DCs election is that famous candidates parachuted into a certain district can get elected easier, but pragmatic candidates ― he emphasized the pragmatic candidates ― will be put in a less favourable position. But he then gave remarks contradicting his own words. He cited Mr Ronny TONG as an example. He said that despite Mr TONG's fame, he lost in the DC election for not being pragmatic, for only candidates who do practical work could win the election. Therefore, at issue is not the size of the constituency, or whether or not the candidate does practical work or is famous. The issue is not that simple. Indeed, the most important concern is the political stance and working attitude of the candidate, as well as his or her contact with constituents. The key is that candidates must have these characteristics in order to foster a relationship with constituents, and the latter will then consider casting their votes to them.
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The question today is the abolition of the appointment system, and we will certainly accept and support it. Regrettably, the Bill has not touched on other issues, including that of ex officio members. Why should the seats for ex officio members be retained? I really do not understand this. Why will some people "naturally" get a seat in district work? What qualifications do they possess? Why can they be included "naturally" but not me? If the rural areas are entitled to this privilege, by the same principle and logic, certain candidates from the functional constituencies may query why they are not given such entitlement. Therefore, it is untenable in terms of logic.
(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MR RONNY TONG, took the Chair)
Though many colleagues accept this Bill, I cannot. I do not understand why the seats for ex officio members are not abolished altogether, which is the gravest concern. Moreover, the Bill has not dealt with the terms of reference and functions, the delineation of constituencies and the electoral system of DCs, as mentioned by other colleagues. In my view, these three areas are interrelated. In respect of the terms of reference, it is difficult to discuss the terms of reference of a DC with a small constituency. More often than not, it induces disputes. The dispute over bus routes as a number of colleagues mentioned earlier is a case in point. Actually, bus routes are not the only cause of dispute, traffic lights will also cause disputes, for they will affect the access of residents and their crossing roads. In view of these issues, if the constituencies are not expanded, it will be very difficult to discuss the functions of DCs. I have some good experience about the Regional Council. If the constituency is large, the functions will be larger correspondingly, and it will be easier to spot the social problems, including municipal and recreational problems. I recalled during the era of the former Urban Council and Regional Council, the operation of district wet markets was much better than that now. Why? It was because some elected members had formulated strategies and directions for wet markets in response to public demands, so as to address the needs of the people. Regrettably, after the dissolution of the two former Municipal Councils, all wet markets were returned to and managed by the Government. At present, nine out of 10 stalls in most of the wet markets are left vacant, failing to function effectively. This is one of the examples. If DCs are given the authority to manage district affairs, it will benefit the operation of districts greatly. At the same time, if the functions of DCs can enable them to solve these problems, it will boost the passion and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12157 support of constituents for DCs, and their intention to vote in the election will in turn be boosted.
Come to think about this. What can DC members do after they are elected? If they do not even manage to add a bus route, what value do they have in the constituents' minds? It will be useless to seek assistance from DC members, for they do not have such authority. They can do nothing to improve the operation of wet markets. What can they do indeed? If the constituents cannot see any close relationship between DC members or DCs and their daily life, and if they find that their votes cannot bring about any change, they will not bother to vote, will they? This is related to constituency boundaries. If a constituency is too small and people know each other well, it will be embarrassing to not to vote. In fact, I am often teased by my colleagues by calling me a village representative. Indeed, I am no different from a village representative. How much area will a DC member oversee? Just one village, so I am similar to the village representative in the past. However, village representatives are in a better position than we do, for in the past, they were powerful. As in the case of existing villages, the acceptability of village representatives comes from indigenous villagers who are entitled to indigenous rights. But DC members have no power at all.
According to the existing terms of reference stipulated in the law, DCs have six functions, and it is stated clearly in four out of the six functions that the DCs are to give advice and nothing else. What are the remaining two functions which carry some authority? That is, DCs may transfer government funding to district organizations and use the relevant funding for operation. These are the two types of power given to DCs, other than these, they have no power. For this reason, DCs under the existing structure should not be called DCs but should be renamed to "District Advisory Councils". This name is most suitable and realistic. It is better not to give people the wrong impression. When we chat with the constituents, they often say that members are different from residents, so members should be able to strive for their interest in many aspects. I asked them in return what the difference was. They may express their views to officials and I may express my views to officials, there is no difference at all, for we do not enjoy any privilege. This is not only applicable to me personally, the DCs do not enjoy any privilege too, then what can DCs do?
Therefore, the key to enhancing constituents' support for DC members and DCs is to expand their terms of reference, lest it is hard to arouse their interest 12158 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 and muster their support. When DC Members are given more powers, I think the constituencies should not be delineated too small, and constituencies should be expanded, the larger the better. It is most desirable to expand to a scale comparable to the arrangement for the former Urban Council and Regional Council. Yet it is definitely inappropriate to have only one or two DCs. There should be five to six DCs each with their own constituency in the territory. A combination of various types of election, such as the proportional representation system, instead of a single approach, should be adopted. Yet, the electoral arrangement is open to further discussion. These arrangements will enhance the operation of DCs as a whole and reinforce the services and relationship between DCs and the relevant districts.
Deputy President, apart from the terms of reference and delineation of constituencies, I would like to talk about the existing electoral system of DCs. As Members mentioned earlier, we have now adopted the "one man, one vote" and "one seat, one vote" system. The arrangement is not impracticable, just that given the small size of constituencies, this mode of election cannot instill high acceptability generally. One only needs to strengthen the work in offering seasonal delicacies to boost the voting result. This is definitely true. I recall that in 1985, when I first stood in an election, the constituencies were much larger than the present ones and each elector had two votes. In my view, that arrangement had enabled electors to truly have a choice. Due to the large coverage of constituencies, candidates would not earn votes easily through their connections in the district but had to use their manifestoes, their contact with constituents or their attitude in actions to attract electors to cast their votes to them.
For the Bill under discussion today, I have the following conclusion. First, I regret that the seats for ex officio Members are retained. Second, the Bill has not dealt with the terms of reference, delineation of constituencies and the electoral system of the DCs. All these are inadequacies. I hope that the Government will review these issues shortly.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the Liberal Party did not appoint any representative to participate in the scrutiny of the District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bill), for the Government had already stated that the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12159 appointment system of the District Councils (DCs) would be abolished. Since the abolition of the DC appointment system was already an established fact, it would not have much effect even if we appointed representatives to participate in the discussion. Having said that, why am I speaking now? I have listened to the speeches of a number of Members earlier. Mr IP Kwok-him said that the appointed DC Members had done a lot of work over the years, though some Members from the pan-democratic camp may not agree that they have made outstanding contribution. It is evident that there are two different views.
I had been an elected member and an appointed member of the DC in the past. Back then, between 1985 and 1991, I was appointed as a member of the Kwai Tsing DC, and I came to know Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung there. Now, he has a head of grey hair, whereas I have my hair dyed. I recall that Kwai Tsing was a newly developed district back then, where many manufacturers had set up factories and many residents lived in Kwai Tsing District. When I was appointed to the DC at the time, I was the representative of manufacturers who had set up factories in Kwai Tsing District and I served as a bridge to facilitate good communication. Manufacturers would only be active in Kwai Tsing District during the daytime, and by night, only the residents would stay there.
Residents of the district would express their views on district policies via DC members, such as their views on the locations of bus stops, as well as the closure of a small bridge for dedicated use of residents but not factories of a larger scale. In my view, all appointed DC members have made great contribution.
Based on my experience as a DC member in those few years, I consider that appointed DC membership definitely is no free lunch. Appointed DC members, like elected DC members, receive remuneration. At that time, I used my remuneration to employ an assistant to help me to understand the issues concerned, and I had to pay out of my own pocket to make up for the difference.
A number of Members said that whenever the Government sought assistance, say when they looked for sponsorship, most of the appointed DC members would render their support at the time. Despite being in that era, I did not accede to every request of the Government. In the period between 1988 and 1991, I continued to be as an appointed DC member. As for the days after 1991, my memory about that is a bit hazy. Probably because I was appointed as a 12160 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Member of the Legislative Council in 1988, I did not have the time to perform the duties as a DC member and I thus submitted my resignation.
These were past events of several decades ago. Today, do appointed DC members still have their value? I think they have. Take the Central and Western District as an example. Appointed DC members of the Central and Western District have to oversee the entire Central and Western District, while elected DC members can focus on the constituencies they represent. I had been an elected DC member for three years ― sorry, it should be four years ― from 2000 to 2003. At the time, I only focused on affairs related to the Peak area. However, the agenda of the Central and Western DC seldom included items related to the Peak area. I felt bored during the meetings, for the agenda items had nothing to do with the Peak area which I represented. On the contrary, appointed DC members of the Central and Western District had to deal with the affairs of the Central and Western District as a whole. The Central and Western District is a commercial district with banks, food establishments and hotels. In the case of the Central and Western District, appointed DC members have made vigorous efforts to improve the district.
The primary target of appointed and elected DC members is to make contribution to society via mutual exchange of views and co-operation, it does not matter whom they represent. At present, there only a small number of appointed DC members, and the voting results on all issues are one-sided. There is a popular saying in society, that motions passed at the meetings of DCs do not have legal effect, and in comparison with motions passed at meetings of the Legislative Council, the Government attaches lesser importance to the former. Therefore, though appointed DC members have certain stances, I do not think they can prevent elected DC members from doing what they wish to do in the course of voting.
On the whole, since the Government has decided to abolish the DC appointment system, the Liberal Party can say nothing even though we disagree. However, I agree with the comment that the course of appointment will arouse the interest of many to engage in politics, and this is one significant point. Many people, such as manufacturers or businessmen, may not necessarily be interested in standing in the elections of DCs initially, yet during the office of the appointment, they may develop a keen interest in district affairs and wish to participate more and express more views to serve the community. Therefore, after taking up the office of appointed DC members for a term or two, they will LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12161 be willing to stand in the DC elections. Certainly, if they have made contribution during their term of office as appointed DC members and made frequent communication with local residents, they will naturally get more support and their chances of being elected will also be increased. Hence, the DC appointment system is a channel for nurturing political talents.
The pan-democratic camp or other political parties and groupings may not necessarily need this channel, but people with business and industrial background may need a channel like the appointment system to develop their interest in politics in a gradual and progressive manner, and they will stand in direct elections later. In the political scene today, it seems that various political parties and groupings, though not to the state of failing to find successors, are making hard efforts to identify successors. Many young people face problems in finding their better halves and arranging for education for their children, whereas engaging in politics seems to be a hard but thankless job.
In the next five, 10 or 20 years, in the face of the abolition of the functional constituencies and the DC appointment system, will the business and industrial sector adopt the "agent system" instead of standing in elections personally? In other words, they may support university graduates to engage full time in politics to become politicians, as in the case of the election in the United States. When I use the term "politician", I do not imply any negative meaning. In nurturing political talents, will the business and industrial sector only employ others to engage in politics and do not do so personally?
Hong Kong is a small society, the direct engagement in politics by the business and industrial sector will achieve better results and foster better communication than simply employing agents to speak for them, for members of the sector know full well how to run a business and what difficulties are faced by small and medium enterprises. As far as I know, overseas countries, European countries and the United States in particular, have all adopted the "agent system" and members of the business and industrial sector seldom engage in politics direct.
No matter how, the authorities have already decided to abolish the DC appointment system. I speak for I would like to express my views, and another reason is that I consider Mr IP Kwok-him's conclusion relatively fair. I hope the Government will first deal with one issue ― just put aside the arrangement for appointed DC members ― that is, residents staying in the district at night are 12162 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 given the right to elect DC members as their representatives, but people working in the district during the day do not have that right. Actually, the comprehensive operation of the district needs the co-operation of the two groups. What channel does the Government plan to use? Since members of the business and industrial sector cannot participate in the operation of DCs through the appointment system, what channels does the Government plan to provide and what role will it play in encouraging them to participate in district affairs? In this regard, I am supportive of the Government handling it.
Thank you, Deputy President.
MR CHRISTOPHER CHUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I support the District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013 (the Bill) which proposes abolishing the system of appointing members to District Councils (DCs). I have been serving in DCs since I was elected a DC Member in 1991, and I have been the vice-Chairman and Chairman of DCs. I do not think that DC members are incapable of making contribution. I now speak in response to the criticisms made by a number of Members from the pan-democratic camp earlier.
Any DC member serving the public with a dedicated heart can make achievements. In 1993, Chris PATTEN launched the "rose garden project", and the whole sea was overpowered by stench, causing tremendous difficulties to the livelihood of tens of thousands of fishermen. I was only a DC member then, but I helped the fishermen to strive for compensation. Eventually, I managed to get compensations amounting to $205 million for the fishermen. I think this experience of mine as a DC Member is evident that DC members can make achievements. Therefore, the earlier remark made by Dr Kenneth CHAN, who is hurrying to leave now, that DC members are incapable of making achievements is not the fact.
Last year, a school under the English School Foundation (ESF) intended to construct a new campus at Woodside, Quarry Bay, the residents then sought assistance from DC members. After considering the views and the motion of the DC, the Government eventually refrained from granting approval for the ESF school to construct their campus on the hill. Do DC Members fail to make any achievement? At the press conference, various political parties and groupings had sent their own representative. It was most ludicrous that when a Member of the Legislative Council from the Civic Party was posed a question, it had to be LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12163 answered by a DC member. It proves that DC members can make achievements.
Moreover, Dr Kenneth CHAN said that the existing constituencies of DCs are too small and that the proportional representation system should be adopted. Some Members from the pan-democratic camp mentioned earlier that in 1995, the DAB supported the proportional representation system for their own interest. Back then, they rebuked the DAB, criticizing that the proportional representation system was undemocratic, a distortion of democratic election and that the system was tailored for our needs. Now, is the request for implementing the proportional representation system made to tailor for their needs? Actually, I think it does not matter which system is adopted. Everyone will support a system that suits him or her best, so do not brag that it is never done for one's own interest. I do not take issue with that. Even if the system proposed best suits the needs of a candidate, the candidate has to be dedicated in serving the residents in order to win the seat.
Deputy President, perhaps I may put it this way. Members from a certain political party are considered blue-blooded, who never go to the districts to serve the residents, the party will not be saved no matter which system is adopted, not the "single seat, single vote" electoral system, not the "double seat, single vote" system and not the proportional representation system. But only the appointment system can save the party, under which members of the party are appointed as DC Members. Indeed, if they want appointment, they may still get it now, and this is the fact.
As in the case of the Democratic Party, it has once been the political party with the greatest number of DC members. Today, the Party still has quite a number of DC members, but it has dropped significantly. Why? I think it should be left to the Party to draw the conclusion. Now, Wan Chai is a "prohibited area for doves", "a sky without doves". In the Eastern District, "doves" are endangered species, and we should protect them. In view of the circumstance, it is concluded that the number of seats that can be obtained depends on how the candidates serve the public.
Earlier on, the Deputy President mocked Mr IP Kwok-him of his defeat by 60 votes in 2003. In my view, candidates participating in elections will either win or lose, and they are well-prepared for victories or defeats in elections. The key lies in whether they can retake the lost seats. This is the most crucial point. 12164 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
In 2007, for some unknown reasons, Ms Cyd HO did not stand for election and another Member from the pan-democratic camp stood for election in the Kwun Lung Lau constituency. I do not know by how many votes that Member lost, for I had not paid attention to affairs in the far end of Western District. One of the reasons is that someone had failed to serve the public through this platform after assuming office, so the person eventually lost the seat. Victories and defeats are no surprise, and the crux is whether the lost seats can be retaken. Therefore, what matters is not the electorate size of DC seats but the approaches adopted by the candidates.
Mr Gary FAN derided the DAB just now for organizing events offering seasonal delicacies. Actually, in the case of the Eastern District, when Ms Emily LAU, who is not in the Chamber now, and I attended a debate forum last year, she posed to me this question, but I have never organized tours. Ironically, the Democratic Party is the largest tour organizer in the Eastern District, and the five-day tour to Seoul organized by the party is very cheap. The Civic Party has also organized Mainland tours to the Chime Long Safari Park. If you and Dr Kenneth CHAN do not know about these, it is probably because you two do not join these tours organized by your comrades. If that is the case, it is of course bad.
Why are events offering seasonal delicacies organized? Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung has explained it very well earlier. The purpose of these events is to contact constituents and establish a relationship with them. The constituents are not so naïve that they will cast their votes to a candidate after joining the tours twice or receiving some rice dumplings. Now, all political parties organize such activities. Mr WONG Yuk-man has also organized quite a number of such activities, has he not? They even give away packets of rice, as well as water heaters and water boilers, on Mother's Day. Their give-aways are quite impressive. However, electors may not necessarily vote for him after taking the give-aways, they will after all consider whether the services he provided suit their needs.
Earlier on, Mr Gary FAN criticized the propriety of Mr TAM Yiu-chung's practice of accompanying a resident to exchange a handbag, and queried if TAM was wasting public money. It is definitely not a waste of public money. No affairs relating to people's livelihood should be considered insignificant. When residents and the public need assistance, we have to lend a hand. If there is a problem with the handbag, we should help them to get an exchange, which is a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12165 matter of consumers' right. Since he regards these as trivial concerns, he definitely will not do such things. This is particularly so for the blue-blooded Members. When it comes to serving the residents, if a Member considers helping residents to exchange a handbag a small issue, what about the fight for the compensation of $205 million to the fishermen, is this also a trivial issue? I have suddenly become a representative of the fishermen, but I do not know how to swim. Today, some colleagues tease me that as the representative of fishermen, I suffer from seasick when I travel in a boat. It does not matter after all, for if one is sincere in helping others, one will get their support. It is just that simple. Why do they not understand this?
Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung made self-contradictory remarks. He criticized us for organizing events offering seasonal delicacies, yet all of us are organizing such events. It is not surprising, is it? However, we have different purposes. We hope that by means of offering these seasonal delicacies, we can have more contact with the public and understand their needs in living, so that we can seek improvement for them, reflect their views and strive for their interest. We are different from certain people who think that they will get the votes of electors by simply organizing two tours. Definitely, our motive is different with theirs.
Lastly, I would like to offer some views to the Secretary on the reform to be made to the political system. In my view, the wholeness of a community established in two to three decades warrants respect, for the style of living of the public should not be jeopardized. As in the case I mentioned earlier, only 11 seats remain in Wan Chai District now, should some seats from the Eastern District be transferred to Wan Chai District then? For the wholeness of the community, DC members do not prefer this arrangement. However, under the operation of DCs, we have no alternative but to discuss the possibility. However, the wholeness of the life of residents should not be jeopardized.
Take the school net as an example. If certain areas in Causeway Bay and North Point are delineated to become part of Wan Chai District, how should corresponding arrangements be made to the school net? Therefore, under certain circumstances, re-demarcation of administrative districts may be possible, but for school nets and other community facilities, caution should be exercised to examine the feasibility of applying the re-demarcation. In this connection, the authorities should examine whether it is necessary to effect the delineation according to the demarcation of administrative districts, or should some community facilities be provided to the Eastern District as a kind of 12166 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 compensation for the transfer which will cause inconvenience to residents in their daily life. We must bear this in mind. It cannot be glibly regarded as a simple re-demarcation of two to three or even 10 constituencies, for it will cause great problem to the life of the public.
Some colleagues mentioned earlier that more often than not, DCs have become narrow-minded nowadays because of the small size of their constituencies. How big a constituency should be? I think the size of constituencies is not the key. At issue is how the DC structure can be improved and enhanced. Take transport as an example. No matter how large a constituency is, there will always be the possibility of conflict of interest with neighbouring constituencies. If so, what is the solution? A large constituency is not a solution, yet the routes provided in a small constituency may not cover every district. In my constituency, Chai Wan, bus routes No 788 and 780 are direct routes to Central. At night, the journey takes only 15 minutes, which is quite fast, for even if one takes a taxi, it will only be three minutes faster.
In view of this, I propose that the authorities should consider setting up some inter-district committees on certain functional issues, such as transport, environmental hygiene, social welfare and recreational facilities, and so on, so that the committee chairman of each DC committee or their representatives may join these territory-wide or inter-district committees for discussions. They may also put forth the concerns of their own constituencies and those of their neighbouring constituencies. Since they will learn the information about neighbouring constituencies at the meetings, they can share the information with other DC members and colleagues in their district, thereby breaking the district barriers.
Therefore, I think Chief Executive LEUNG Chun-ying is correct in saying that DCs used to adopt a vertical perspective in the past, and that it is necessary for DCs to adopt a horizontal perspective. Thus, I consider the setting up of inter-district functional committees will remove the district barriers.
With these remarks, Deputy President, I support the Bill.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I speak on behalf of the Hong Kong Federation and Trade Unions (FTU) in support of the abolition of District Council (DC) appointment system in 2016. We understand that the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12167 abolition is meant to tie in with the needs of our constitutional development. In spite of such abolition, we cannot, however, deny the contribution appointed DC members have made to the community over the years.
I was sitting right here listening to the criticisms made by many Honourable Members of the appointed DC members. Some Honourable Members may say that we are incorrect in saying this. When I was first appointed as a DC member in 1993, I was probably the last person appointed by the colonial Government. I might be the youngest appointee at that time although I definitely am not now. Having been an appointed DC member, I am not going to discuss the demerits of the appointment system as if I am suffering from schizophrenia.
An Honourable colleague just now pointed out that there are two types of appointed DC members. One type refers to those who buy reputation with money. To your disappointment, it was only three months after my university graduation and I had no money to even repay the grant/loan. I absolutely could not afford to buy reputation with money. The other type refers to those who relinquish their stances to support the Government. But Members can all see that I come from the FTU, which means that I generally would not support the Chris PATTEN Administration at that time. I have made my point clear. Colleagues insisted that they were only talking about the system, but they were actually making comments about people. What system were they talking about?
The second point I would like to raise is that many colleagues keep talking about the need to enhance the functions and upgrade the powers of DCs. They have actually never stopped in their speeches dwarfing DC members. I do not know the reasons. Some colleagues dwarfed them as some kind of "a security group head of a village". Some DC members even say they are only "village chiefs". Some colleagues have even equaled DC members to an ordinary citizen. Such an analogy is, nevertheless, terrible. Why do electors cast their votes to someone whose calibre is no different from an ordinary citizen? DC members should at least possess the capability as well as competence to serve the community. If a candidate says in the front of the public that his calibre is as ordinary as everyone else, the next thing he ought to say is to urge his electors not to vote for him. Since the candidate's quality is no different from yours or mine, why do we not simply resolve issues among ourselves? Why does the candidate bother to run in the DC elections? So, I think we should have some sense of logic when we advance arguments or put the blame on others.
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I beg your pardon Deputy President. You said just now that you lost in the DC Election because of the machinery activated by the LOCPG. You have also mentioned that there were only 11 persons in your electioneering team. I very much agree that a small electioneering team definitely makes the campaign efforts very difficult. In 1993, I was an appointed DC member. A year later when I was 23 years old, I became an elected DC member. My electioneering team was made up of classmates with whom I organized student union activities. We had never before voted in any election or even entered any polling station. We somehow applied our experience in organizing student union activities to DC elections. It was how we got into the DC Election. Therefore, when you mentioned that there were only 11 members in your campaigning team, I can tell you that my situation at that time was nearly the same as yours. We did not even have a computer or photocopier. We borrowed the necessary equipment from elsewhere. In spite of all these disadvantages, we still managed to win the election. Is my victory a result of the LOCPG's effort, as you said? Your remarks seem to have degraded my electors. You are not degrading me. Do you think that my electors simply voted under someone's instigation?
Some Members have raised the issue of seasonal delicacies. I do agree that many people are giving away flowers or something in various districts. Take the recent Mother's Day as an example. I accompanied my colleagues to give away flowers in the district. I happened to see three candidate-like persons giving away flowers in a public housing estate. One of them was a DC member-designate while the rest of them were intent on running in the election, including members of the Democratic Party. Some people then said that everyone was giving away flowers. This is my 20th year as a DC member. I do not mind seeing people giving away flowers since residents will largely be benefited from such activities. In my opinion, fierce competition among candidates is a good thing. At least more people are willing to offer their help to fight for the erection of a rain shelter or give away flowers and rice. It really does not matter if more people can be benefited.
Regarding the issue of seasonal delicacies, I remember that it was the year before last when I was giving away rice dumplings that an old lady came up to me with six coupons for rice dumplings. Those six coupons were from the pan-democratic camp, a political party of the pro-establishment camp, a centre for the elderly, an owners' corporation, the district where she lived and the district where she did not reside in. She asked me, "Miss MAK, which one of these is yours? You pick for me." Can you tell me whether the old lady will cast her LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12169 vote for me after eating my rice dumpling? She even has difficulty in distinguishing those six coupons. If some people have organized tours, the old lady will also take out those coupons and ask which is which. She may ask, "Who is organizing today's tour?" People like the old lady have already got many such coupons. Hence, they will not cast their votes for those whom they go travelling with. Bear in mind that they have to pay for the tour as well as the snake feast. No political parties have ever said that such activities are free. They have to pay in order to join the tour and snake feast. It does not necessarily mean they have to vote in favour of the organizer. Neither does taking rice dumplings mean favourable voting. All in all, what you have said is not a vilification against me; you are actually defaming the electors.
When someone ever talks about buying votes with sweeteners like seasonal delicacies, please ask yourself: How do you face the people who have voted for you? Mr Gary FAN also said that elections should go level by level in order to train political talents. I very much agree with him. Hong Kong really needs political talents. But we do not use public money or votes to train political talents. As a taxpayer and elector, I will not use my money or vote to nurture any political talent for any political party for the Legislative Council election. If I vote for a candidate in the DC Elections, vote again for him during the Urban Council or Regional Council elections and subsequently casting my vote for him in the Legislative Council elections, I do not aim at using my money or vote to nurture political talents. I have no idea why he would say something like that.
Hong Kong is in need of political talents. I also think that Hong Kong requires the development of party politics. We cannot nurture political talents by just blaming others running for office or simply organizing more elections, say for the establishment of Urban Council or Regional Council, and so on. Having said that, the making of political talents depends on the effort of the community as a whole. Any single electoral system alone will not suffice.
As for the election method, each takes what he needs. Honestly speaking, there are always people criticizing others although they, their friends, their party comrades or even the mutual aid committees on their side would have done the same things. Therefore, I often feel that we have to be fair. Before scolding others, we should first ask ourselves and refrain from barking up the wrong tree. I do not mean that such scolding will hurt me. It does not affect me at all. Frankly speaking, I am totally numb to those allegations that our winning the 12170 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 election is due to the offering of seasonal delicacies plus the help of the LOCPG. I know that when they scold me like that, they are not speaking negatively of me; they are defaming my electors. I feel that they, being elected Members, are very wrong in defaming the electors.
Let me come back to what I should have said. What I wish to say is that the abolition of the DC appointment system is a result of the constitutional reform, but we should not ignore the contribution of appointed DC members. Some colleagues think that the appointment system is some kind of pork barrel politics. In fact, I was still a student when Mr James TIEN was an appointed DC member of Kwai Tsing. I was still studying when Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung was a DC member. Why were there seats for appointed DC members in Kwai Tsing? What was the candidacy for the appointed DC members? Take Mr James TIEN as an example. He was representing the business sector. Kwai Tsing District at that time was mainly an industrial area where there were many industrial buildings. For the subsequent and incumbent appointed DC members, there has always been a member from the container freight industry. What is the reason for it? As we all know, Kwai Tsing District comprises the Kwai Chung Container Terminal, which had the world's biggest cargo-handling capacity at that time. As the industry's interest had to be represented, the Government then made relevant appointments. Therefore, the appointment of DC members or the whole appointment system is necessary at the district level. As the constitutional reform package has arrived at the current stage, the appointment system has to be abolished. But I do not think that these appointed DC members should leave simply because of unfounded allegations. Moreover, not every appointed DC member lacks acceptability. I became an elected DC member after acting as an appointed one. During the colonial era, I had been referred to different districts. I joined the district election here this time and then changed to other districts for election the next. There are, in fact, quite a number of appointed DC members who have commanded public acceptability.
After this constitutional reform, that is, abolition of the appointment system, I hope that the Government will take a few more steps to enhance the functions of DCs. The Secretary may perhaps suggest that I go find the Home Affairs Bureau because it is the Bureau's job. But what I really want to say is that there are some issues that the Secretary can offer help. What I mean is the districts that we are currently talking about, as Mr Christopher CHUNG mentioned just now. No matter how we are demarcated as administrative districts, we can see that our Government does not attach any importance to the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12171
DC constituencies. It is because other institutions or government departments will not regionalize their service areas according to the DC constituencies. Simply take the Islands DC as an example. There are several hospital clusters under the Hospital Authority (HA) serving Islands District. Let us also consider Kwai Tsing District. There are already two Police Districts serving Kwai Tsing. It is thus evident that the services provided by any government department or institution are actually not constituency-based. Take police districts into perspective. A Kwai Tsing Police District should be set up to cover the whole Kwai Tsing District. But the fact is that North East Kwai Chung is under Sham Shui Po Police District. If the Government really attaches great importance to the functions of DCs, it should do something to let people realize the significance of DC constituencies. It should align police districts, HA service districts and school nets with our constituencies. Only in this way will the people be enabled to see the status of DC constituencies and the weight our Government attaches to the opinions expressed by DC members out of the concern for their respective communities.
Deputy President, having said all this, my ultimate hope is to see subsequently the continuous enhancement of the functions of DCs and also actual enhancement of the quality of members. Hong Kong needs political talents. But it is not due to anything wrong with our DCs. Thank you, Deputy President.
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, today we are discussing the abolition of all appointed seats in District Councils (DCs) in 2016. The Democratic Party welcomes this arrangement. All appointed seats of DCs were abolished in 1995 before the reunification. But after the reunification, TUNG Chee-hwa restored the appointed seats. Now many years after the reunification, we are still discussing the abolition of appointed seats only in 2016. In the discussion on constitutional reform in 2010, the Democratic Party proposed the abolition of all appointed seats in 2012. But the Government insisted that the proposal should be carried out in two stages and the full abolition of appointed seats could be achieved in 2016. Considering that such an approach is too sluggish, we will support the Bill today. However, we very much hope that the Government will complete its unfinished task, that is, all 27 ex officio seats of the DCs will be abolished so that the 27 Chairmen of Rural Committees cannot become DC members automatically.
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Deputy President, what we are talking about is how to restore order out of chaos. In other words, the errors repeatedly committed during the democratic process in the past should be rectified so that all DC members are returned by election. Deputy President, I also hope that the Bureau can respond expeditiously to the aspirations of many Members. We have to deal with not only the abolition of all appointed seats in 2016, but also a comprehensive review of reforming the DC system. Our three-tier representative structure has been revamped into a two-tier structure. As for present-day DCs, there is still much room for review so that the system can be optimized and DCs, as regional organizations, will serve not only as advisory bodies, but also assume an aggregate role and take up the functions of making contact with residents, reflecting public opinions and training of political talents. We hope that the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau can expeditiously follow up such a review, particularly the expansion of DC constituencies and reducing the number of DCs which stands at 18. This may not necessarily reduce the number of DC members. However, a reduction in the number of constituencies may lead to changes in space so as to enlarge the constituency area and electorate population represented by each DC member. Besides, it will also broaden the horizons of DC members who will consider residents' interests from a wider and holistic perspective instead of placing their focus on a tiny constituency of just thousands of constituents. Thus, they will grasp the full picture rather than the interests of a small area. This will play a very important role in the training of political talents who will participate in the DCs, the Legislative Council or the Government. It is because DC members may have to be concerned not only about the ditches of some streets. They may also be concerned about the environmental hygiene problem of a larger area. They have to please not only the constituents of some streets or several buildings. Instead, they have to consider some wider and more complex issues of public interest. The Government should further review the constituency system and electoral methods of DCs as a whole in order to achieve these goals.
Regarding the review in future, I very much hope that ― the Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau is also present ― apart from the size of constituencies, the electoral methods and the roles of DCs, we will also review an issue which has been neglected, that is, the serious problem of gender imbalance in DCs. Deputy President, since the establishment of district boards in 1985, the number of female DC members has increased from 369 to 480 at present, representing a percentage increase from 10.3% in 1985 to 18.5% LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12173 currently. After almost two decades, the proportion of women members has only increased from 10% to slightly above 18%, or below 20%, which is totally contradictory to the target of the Government. We hope that the participation rate of women in public offices and committees at various levels of the representative structure will not be less than 30%. It should be 40% or even 50%. Why does the proportion of women members in our DCs remain at below 20% since 1985?
Certainly, the same situation can be seen in the Legislative Council. The number of women Members is few. Although the number of seats has increased by 10 in the Legislative Council, the number of women Members in the Legislative Council has not increased and the proportion of women Members has never exceeded 20%. Why has the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau never reviewed such a situation? In this Council, we represent more than 7 million people in Hong Kong, of which more than half are women. Why is the percentage of women DC members who are the people's representatives less than 20%? Do we consider such a situation only normal, or a problem which can be taken lightly or ignored? Deputy President, I hope the Government will make a pledge of introducing more incentives in the future to reverse the serious unfairness in gender representation in the Legislative Council or DCs.
Deputy President, a delegation of women Members of the National Assembly of South Korea visited Hong Kong Legislative Council recently. I also met with them on that day. They mentioned that in the past the National Assembly was also dominated by men and women's participation in politics was rare. But in recent years, the Korean Government has striven to promote women's political participation by various means, including increasing electoral funding for female candidates or other electoral means to provide more encouragement and support to women in participating in the National Assembly of South Korea. On this issue, has the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau of Hong Kong conducted any relevant study? I hope that the Bureau, when reviewing the representative structure of Hong Kong in future, will restart the study, and this study should include such questions as whether quotas for women or gender-based quotas should be introduced into the elections of Hong Kong.
As we all know, emphasis is also placed on promoting women's political participation in the Mainland. In the promotion of local cadres, quotas for 12174 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 women are set. In Taiwan, quotas for women have also been introduced in an attempt to reverse gender inequality by stipulating the number of women. In recent years, the term "quotas for women" has been changed to "gender-based quotas" in Taiwan. In other words, if the number of representatives of a gender in the assembly is less than the prescribed level, be it male or female members, a line has to be drawn so that different views and perspectives of both genders can be reflected in the assembly.
In Hong Kong, we have never seen any relevant document issued by the Bureau. Neither have we seen the Central Policy Unit studies this issue. Does the Bureau consider that nothing has to be done in promoting women's political participation? In this regard, I think Hong Kong should be developed into a more civilized and advanced city so that this Council can represent the voices of both genders and even transsexuals in the future. How can we ensure that their voices can be given expression? This should not be ignored in the course democratization. Certainly, we have to consider universal suffrage and the fairness of the electoral system, in addition to pondering how gender representation can be embodied in this Council.
Moreover, there are many aspects regarding the electoral law. If we consider that DC constituencies should be expanded by merging the existing 18 DCs, thereby reducing the number of DCs and increasing the number of DC members, we may consider introducing different electoral methods, including multiple seats and the proportional representation system. If we move in this direction, we may consider gender-based quotas as I mentioned just now. Deputy President, we may also consider providing special financial incentives so that women who lack financial resources can also participate in political activities.
Deputy President, just now I heard that the DAB express a keen concern about the Democratic Party. Back then, many of our party members were DC members, but now we have lost some seats in certain districts. Certainly, the Democratic Party is prepared to conduct a review and make more efforts to improve our services for local communities.
Nevertheless, regarding elections, the most important responsibility of the Bureau or the Government is to maintain a fair and impartial election. In the last DC Election, we read a lot of media reports. We also reported some suspected LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12175
"vote rigging" cases to the Independent Commission Against Corruption as these are very serious in the election.
In some small constituencies, there may be only 10 000-odd residents or electors. In such a small constituency, a candidate will win if he or she gets only about 2 000 votes. Thus, it will be most unusual if some coaches of unknown origin carrying some elderly pulled into a small constituency and then picked them up after they have cast their votes. In such a small constituency, the polling stations are within a walking distance for residents. Why were there coaches carrying some elderly electors to the polling stations?
Deputy President, we have reported a lot of suspected cases. However, the progress of investigation into "vote rigging" and arranging for people from outside a constituency to a polling station in order to cast votes has been very slow. Although criminal prosecution has been initiated in some cases, the Bureau has not informed us of the progress in respect of some suspected cases of voter registration which are reported by us. I hope that the Bureau can make more efforts to maintain a fair, impartial and clean election.
Deputy President, today I would like to respond to one point. Just now an Honourable colleague questioned the role played by the LOCPG in elections. At a meeting of the Panel on Constitutional Affairs, I raised this question. What role do the LOCPG and its regional offices play in the elections of various levels in Hong Kong including the DC elections, the Legislative Council Election and the Chief Executive Election?
Just now, a Member said that we should not criticize the LOCPG. We do not wish to make any criticism or assumption. But we hope that the Bureau can tell us whether, on the basis of its understanding, the LOCPG and its regional bodies have played any role in local elections. If such information is ambiguous, there will be speculations or grievances. Thus, we might as well make it clear whether the LOCPG should intervene in local elections. Has any intervention been ever made? In what form was such intervention made? The public should have a right to know. Otherwise, some people may be accused of having benefited from the co-ordination effort and assistance offered by the LOCPG behind the scene although they deny it. I think we should uphold the fairness and impartiality of the electoral system of Hong Kong. We do not want any manipulation by an invisible hand behind the scene while we are kept in the dark. Certainly, it is most desirable that the Government will undertake that it 12176 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 will give an account to us should any fact remains unclear and we have such worries.
Deputy President, we support the Amendment Bill today.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I am grateful to you and Mr Christopher CHUNG for talking about the DC Election in the Kwun Lung Constituency in 2003. Many people say that anyone involved in politics would begin his political career at the DC level, then move on to the Urban Council, and then to the Legislative Council, getting promoted from one grade to another like going to school. I can be considered the odd one out because I started out as a Legislative Council Member from the very beginning. However, I consider myself lucky to have had the opportunity to serve in a DC for four years and I am also grateful to the electors of the Kwun Lung Constituency for their trust in us. Of course, I am also very grateful to the friends in the predecessor to the Article 45 Concern Group. They had never visited local communities to distribute leaflets or paid home visits in buildings before but still, they assisted me in conducting the election campaign. I am very grateful to them for this.
Mr IP Kwok-him was really a great opponent. In the course of the election campaign, we found that our opponent really had a very strong foundation in the district, so it is really worthwhile for us to observe and learn. I believe the Deputy President will also recall that the supporters of our opponent were indeed very passionate. No matter how we searched, we could not find a group of supporters with such great drive and passion to help us. In contrast, our supporters were all very reserved and sometimes, we also hoped that they would not be so reserved and that they could give expression for the feelings in their hearts by all means. As regards the competition on that occasion, I hope that it was a good experience for all the people who took part in it. The numbers of votes won by both sides were very close, with a difference of just 64 votes and coincidentally, there were 23 invalid votes. I believe the Deputy President will also remember this and these two figures gave everyone an even deeper impression of the event.
Here, I must stress that Mr IP Kwok-him was an extremely gentlemanly opponent. In fact, the sophistication of a politician does not lie in how he wins an election but how he faces the moment of a defeat. Mr IP Kwok-him's conduct was really impressive. I wonder if I was lucky or not, but in the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12177 election in 2004, I also suffered a defeat. I think both Mr IP Kwok-him and I coped with it quite well. We both had this unforgettable experience, so we should actually congratulate each other.
At the moment when I was elected a DC member, in fact, I was full of fear and trepidation, not just because I had never served as a DC member before but also because the numbers of votes for both sides were very close. At that time, the very first thing that occurred to me was that instead of having supporters accounting for 51%, I had to face 49% of the constituents being opponents. The relationship of a DC member with the kaifongs in a constituency, particularly in a constituency with such a small area, is very close and the proportion of supporters for the other side was as high as 49%, so that was actually a great warning and also a strong whip on the elected candidate. Therefore, I had to learn how to establish a relationship with local residents even more quickly. This is the most important as well as fundamental requirement for a DC member and it is even more important to a DC member than to a Legislative Council Member.
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
At the same time, the electoral system also determines the relationship between the elect candidate and local residents. Take the "single-seat, single-vote" system as an example, the elect would definitely be more middle-of-the-road cum moderate, and this electoral system also requires him to establish a very close relationship with residents. Therefore, given that the area of a constituency is so small, the establishment of relationships with residents would consume most of the energy and time of a DC member. However, if this DC member has to look at the planning for a larger area, there will really be difficulties. Of course, to me, this presented an excellent opportunity to hone myself because I had never been a DC member before, so this learning process was very valuable.
I think that in some ways, the power of DCs is actually greater than that of the Legislative Council. This is because even though the law stipulates that DCs are only an advisory framework for matters of hygiene, culture and recreation in districts, the contact between DCs and officials is very close. Moreover, the officials attending DC meetings are executives and engineering and technical officers who actually undertake the work. Often, when dealing with local 12178 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 problems, DCs have the opportunities to communicate directly with these front-line officials to explore ways of improving district administration. For example, on the problems of the notorious stinky sewers in the Central and Western District and the flooding in Wing Lok Street, in the relevant DC meetings, we could communicate with front-line engineering officers to study in what specific aspects improvement could be made. In the end, local problems were actually ameliorated as a result of this kind of contact between both parties.
This situation is different from our present discussions with the Secretary because the Secretary would deal with us perfunctorily, taking us on a wild goose chase and we are also subject to constraints in speech delivery. Therefore, in contrast, the communication between the Legislative Council and officials can actually be more annoying. In the local districts, be it the repairs and maintenance of old buildings, the construction of university hostels, the problem of rodents in markets and even how the shelves and books of libraries in local districts should be arranged and displayed (for example, not to display books in two rows to avoid blocking the view of books in the rear row, so as to facilitate borrowing by the public), they are all very practical tasks and it is true that nothing relating to public living is trivial. Through this kind of practical tasks, DC members will find that improvements are made to local communities and can derive great satisfaction from them.
Certainly, DC members can also be involved in the planning for a larger area. Although DC members have to care about the matters in their small constituencies, they also have to care about the planning for larger areas to ensure that no obstacles would be encountered. I congratulate myself on the fact that back then, the Central and Western District was really a civilized area and we could lobby the members of other political parties and groupings to jointly approve the resource allocation for the production of a narrative history together with the University of Hong Kong. In addition, we also co-operated with Caritas-Hong Kong in studying the housing conditions and choices of tenants who were forced to move out of the Central and Western District because of exorbitant rents, as well as studying the effects of the gentrification and expensivization of the whole district brought about by the West Island Line as a result of inflation in the district. We could even put forward bold proposals in respect of the redevelopment of Sai Wan Estate, for example, increasing the number of units from 630 to 3 600 through redeveloment. In fact, no one can stop members from taking part in this kind of planning for a larger area. All members can lobby the members of other political parties or those of their own to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12179 work together. In addition, we also brought about some actual changes, for example, by making the Hong Kong Housing Society make available 100 vacant units in Kwun Lung Lau, so that tenants who could not afford the exorbitant rents in the district could be allocated housing on compassionate grounds. Subsequently, we also succeeded in making the Urban Renewal Authority (URA) provide a building on Connaught Road West with a vacancy rate as high as 78% to tenants affected by urban renewal, so that they could rent the units therein. In fact, all such tasks can be accomplished by lobbying members of various political parties and groupings to work together.
As regards the reason for my not running in DC elections again ― here, I wish to give Mr Christopher CHUNG a reply ― for one year, I was a "Member who held two offices at the same time" and I found that I really could not cope. Since I had to devote myself to the work of both the DC and Legislative Council, which are totally different in nature and regrettably, multi-tasking is not my strength, I decided to run in the Legislative Council Election in 2008 again. However, during the same period from 2003 to 2007, some of my colleagues in the Civic Act-Up, such as Ada WONG and Mary Ann King, were doing an even better job in Wan Chai. Not only did they deal with the affairs in their small constituencies, they were also involved in the redevelopment of the "Wedding Card Street", mobilizing local residents to carry out democratic planning. In the end, the "dumb-bell proposal" was proposed and as a result, the URA eventually agreed to the "flat for flat, shop for shop" proposal, even though in the end, quite a number of concepts were quietly substituted. In addition, they also took part in the work relating to a pet garden and the redesigning of the Southorn Playground.
Our target at that time was to change the roles and functions of DC members as well as those of DCs, so that instead of paying close attention to cases involving residents and providing tailor-made care, their roles and functions can be expanded ― I am talking about expanding rather than replacing them ― and DC members and DCs would be able to look at the town planning for the greater district as a whole, for example, how the culture, housing, transport and even quality of architecture of the community as a whole can affect the micro climate of local communities. DCs can accomplish all such matters.
Now, the resources for DCs have increased. The past fund allocation for the Central and Western District was about $3.5 million and now, each DC can have as much as $100 million at its disposal. However, problems have emerged 12180 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 as a result. I do not understand why the authorities have so little trust in DCs. They said that the funding of this sum of $100 million had to follow the procedure for other funding allocations and if the amount of funds involved exceeded a certain amount, it would have to be submitted to the Legislative Council for approval. I believe this is an insult to the electors who cast their votes in DC elections because the electors in these two tiers of representative council have different expectations. Many residents told me that in the DC elections, they had voted for a certain political party or grouping but in the Legislative Council elections, they had voted for another political party or grouping. It can thus be seen that the residents or kaifongs have different expectations for these two representative councils. The Legislative Council has its own task of approving funding in a centralized manner. Since this sum of $100 million is allocated to DCs, the Legislative Council should not be asked to exceed its functions and meddle with the affairs of DCs by curtailing the latter's power. Rather, DC members should be allowed to assume collective responsibility and carry out planning collectively by discussing how this sum of $100 million should be used together with the residents in their districts.
President, various political parties and groupings have different ways of winning the trust of constituents, some by organizing outings and vegetarian feasts, some by providing tailor-made services ― I have heard that some people had helped members of the public in home removals ― thus catering closely to the personal needs of constituents in their lives. In fact, to use a remark made by the communists, this is to "care about the living of the people". I do not think there is anything wrong in doing so. Each member of the representative councils, no matter to which tier he belongs, should care about the living of the people. Those with more resources can take certain approaches, whereas those lacking resources can adopt other ways. If we do not have the resources to provide tailor-made care, we can explain to members of the public that so long as we can provide assistance in respect of the policies of the central authorities, the living of each family would change for the better.
Therefore, I think that the pro-democracy camp does not have to worry. It can also make use of the planning rules of the greater district to serve local communities but they must explain this clearly to the public. In fact, this approach of using the democratic planning rules of the greater district to serve the public is now gradually being adopted by various political parties and groupings as well as DCs. However, if the constituencies are too small, this would really impose constraints on the DC members when they consider policies. For LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12181 example, with regard to the plan to build the student hostels of the University of Hong Kong in the Kwun Lung Constituency, of course, DC members in the area voiced their opposition ― sorry, rather, it was residents in the district who did so. At that time, I was the DC member for that area but, regrettably, I did not voice any opposition on behalf of residents. I am grateful to Mr IP Kwok-him because on this matter, he supported the University. He was a member of the Court of the University of Hong Kong but he did not go along with the demands of residents by opposing the construction of student hostels for the sake of the votes in that constituency. However, I believe he also had to bear quite a lot of pressure on account of this.
President, I very much support changing the electoral system for DCs to "proportional representation", so that the political party winning a great majority of seats in a district can become the ruling party of that district. In this way, it can carry out planning for the district by working towards the same goal and taking an objective and a direction through. Therefore, President, I support the abolition of appointed DC seats but I hope all the more that the authorities could conduct a review of the electoral system as soon as possible, so that DCs can serve residents in local communities more effectively by adopting the mode of ruling parties. Thank you, President.
MR WONG YUK-MAN (in Cantonese): President, it is no use even if you drive at full speed, for people will still want to speak. If I ask for a headcount now, the meeting would surely have to be adjourned. President, do you want me to do so? Just tell me, since you like to cut off filibustering so much. You are driving at full speed by holding debates on four motions but still, you have to let people speak. Even the discussion on this Bill alone will take a long time. We surely have to talk about this Bill, and I in particular want all the more to speak.
On 11 February 2009, there was an oral question about the composition and power of the DCs and it was here that I was thrown out by you. Most strangely, I am often driven out by you but since I am so eloquent, how come I was driven out by you so frequently? That is because I violated the Rules of Procedure and refuted you. On that day, my target was the "human audio recorder", who was the superior of Raymond TAM. Raymond TAM is unable to imitate his former superior very well because he is not gifted, whereas LAU Kong-wah is slightly more gifted than him. In the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau, the person whose talent of being the "human audio recorder" can 12182 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 match the person who only wears a superficial smile, Stephen LAM, is none other than LAU Kong-wah. On 11 February 2009, I asked Stephen LAM a supplementary question. That oral question was not asked by me. I brought along an audio recorder ― last time, when I played an audio recording to "689" here, it was not the first time but the second time I did so. When Stephen LAM was answering my supplementary question, he acted just like an audio recorder and the most despicable thing was that he went so far as to say, "Because in 2005, the pan-democratic camp did not support the constitutional reform proposal. Had it supported the constitutional proposal, the appointed seats could have been abolished at that time.". On that occasion, Stephen LAM was talking about Mr Frederick FUNG. In 2005, Mr Frederick FUNG once negotiated the conditions with him, saying that if the Government abolished the appointed seats in the DCs, he would support the constitutional reform proposal. Frederick, am I right?
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): That is not the whole story.
MR WONG YUK-MAN (in Cantonese): If that is not the whole story, you can supplement it later on. If I have not told the whole story, often, it is necessary for you to add a few words. Can you add a few words later on?
All parties had negotiations but in the end, the constitutional reform proposal was negatived, so the Government refused to abolish the appointed seats. This is how the Government acts. Originally, it was necessary to abolish them because the principle of gradual and orderly progress had to be followed. If we review history, we will know that in 1982, the first district board elections were held and in 1985, the official seats were abolished. Subsequently, up to 1991, the number of seats in the district boards was on the increase, including over 100 appointed seats. Then, in 1994, all the appointed seats in the district boards were abolished. Subsequently, for reasons known to us all, on 1 July 1997, everything was dismantled and started anew and the Provisional DCs were established. Frederick, do you know that? No elections were held for the Provisional DCs and gradual and orderly progress became gradual and orderly regress. Therefore, we are just getting back our fair deal. By 1994 in the mid-1990s, all appointed seats had been abolished and the appointed seats in the two Municipal Councils had also been abolished, had they not? However, the SAR Government took retrogressive steps by reinstating the appointed seats in the DCs and "scrapping" the two Municipal Councils. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12183
Certainly, this buddy sitting here does not have to assume any responsibility. However, although he is not the "human audio recorder", he still has to act according to the imperial dictates and dance to the tune. Of course, he is only a "salaried man" making a living, is he not?
The discussion now is about waiting until 2016 before the appointed seats in the DCs are abolished. Moreover, the 27 ex officio DC members from the Rural Committees will be retained. President, this is exactly the same as the proposal put forward by Chris PATTEN back then and we have reverted to the era of "a sinner of a thousand centuries", as LU Ping put it. It is now 2013 AD and in 1994, Chris PATTEN already abolished the appointed seats in the district boards but retained the 27 ex officio members. According to this Bill, it is necessary to wait until the expiry of the term of the DCs in 2015 before all appointed seats can be abolished, but the 27 ex officio members will be retained. There are as many as 21 years between 1994 and 2015. "Son", what were you doing in 1994? Were you a "junior AO (Administrative Officer)? That is to say, you had not yet won promotion and got rich at that time, had you? Back then, you were just a "young son". This term "young son" does not carry any negative connotation.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, please address the Chair.
MR WONG YUK-MAN (in Cantonese): That means back then, you had not joined the Government for long. When it comes to this, you have risen through the ranks fairly quickly. However, unfortunately, since you have taken up this post, you will be dealt with by me from time to time.
President, this is the story of the development of democratic politics or district administration in Hong Kong. The other day, I talked about "lowly people " and in fact, there are also many lowly people in the DCs and this can be attributed to the system. I do not quite agree with the comments made by Mr Ronny TONG just now because I believe that when running in elections, a defeat is simply a defeat and even if one loses by just a single vote, one is still defeated. People often talk about seasonal delicacies. A few days later, I will be giving away rice dumplings, too. My view is very simple. There are so many poor people and in particular, many elderly people, in my district. If I have the means or can find sponsors, I will host two birthday parties each month. Here, I have 12184 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 to report this to the President because I am a Legislative Council Member, not a DC member. I host two birthday parties each month and invite elderly people whose birthdays fall on that month to have a meal. However, they must be aged 65 years or more in order to be invited. Your honour, President, can also qualify marginally. It is only necessary for you to join the "Senior Friends of Yuk Man Club" for you to be invited in the month on which your birthday falls. If we can find the resources to make up for the inadequacies of government welfare, what is bad about it?
You people may criticize me, saying that I am doing this for the sake of votes. However, many people who eat the food offered by me will not vote for me. Do you know why? You think they will surely vote for me? I even tell those elderly people that if the FTU hosts a meal for them, I will notify them and if the DAB gives away dumplings, I will certainly tell them immediately. As a result, an elderly person can get two rice dumplings from the DAB, two more from the ward office of Yuk-man, another two from another political party and with a total of six dumplings, they can have a good time during the festival. I am not joking. They really do not even have the money to buy rice dumplings. I may as well tell Members that I would do the same with regard to moon cakes. Each year, when the Mid-Autumn Festival comes, I will give away moon cakes. I also give away rice in July each year. As regards outings, I organize fewer of them but on 25 May, there will be an outing to visit the Legislative Council and then a meal.
I believe that there is no problem if DC members or the Offices of Legislative Council Members do this sort of things. What matters the most is a fair, impartial and open electoral system and not to violate the law because there are restrictions under the Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Conduct) Ordinance. Therefore, let us not talk about this sort of things anymore. I think that the pro-democracy camp has really failed to live up to expectations. President, I remember that after the pro-democracy camp won a sweeping victory in the DC Election in 2003, your honour had a conversation about the DC Election with me. The Secretary General of your esteemed party at that time was MA Lik and subsequently, he went on to become the Chairman of the DAB. After the 1 July rally in 2003, he approached me for a chat and at that time, I was still working for a radio station. He asked, "Yuk-man, what is your view on the elections to come?" I said that the DAB would surely lose. That year, the pro-democracy camp won a sweeping victory by winning 151 seats, whereas the pro-establishment camp won 62 and independents won 181. Of course, many LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12185 independent candidates were pro-establishment. Then came 2007 and the pro-democracy camp suffered a rout, winning only 108 seats, whereas the pro-establishment camp won 148. In 2011, the number of seats increased but the pro-democracy camp won only 103 seats, even fewer than in 2007. In contrast, the pro-establishment camp and independents won 276 seats and 33 seats respectively. What else could the pro-democracy camp say? Even if all appointed seats are abolished and replaced by directly-elected ones, can the pro-democracy camp emerge victorious? Why can it not win? Here, I am not going to talk about this in detail. I only wish to raise one point concerning appointed seats. Some people say that the performance of appointed members is no worse than that of directly-elected members. This is nonsense, just like saying "mothers are women". I can also say that the performance of directly-elected members is no worse than that of appointed members. It all depends on the subjects of comparison, does it not? Appointed members are appointed members and directly-elected ones are directly-elected ones. If it is about popular mandate, direct election is the only option. Otherwise, the appointed seats need not be abolished. Now, in speaking favourably about appointed seats, maybe you just cannot bear to trample on them any further when these seats are on the brink of death.
I have sympathy for this sort of argument but you must not lavish praises on appointed members, as if they were unparallelled in the world. This just does not hold water. The appointed seats are obviously a tool for the Government to extract benefits from the pro-establishment camp. Where does the pro-establishment camp find its "vote captains"? Obviously, appointed members are their "vote captains". As in the case of Mr Tony TSE running in the election in Kowloon East, he would not invite the DAB to be his "vote captain", nor would the LOCPG ask the DAB to act as his "vote captain", or would it? The DAB and FTU also have to look after their own interests. However, those so-called independents and many appointed members can act as his "vote captains" and the same applies to Dr Priscilla LEUNG in the Kowloon West Constituency. President, the rules of the game are very obvious. The communists are now taking part in direct elections and this is very clear. However, I do not think this is a problem either. If all seats are directly-elected ones, just let all the people take part in the elections.
However, the appointed seats of the past have formed a foundation for the pro-establishment camp to take part in direct elections. It is necessary to make this point clear. Apart from the lack of a popular mandate, appointed 12186 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 members ― we all know this full well and there is no need to say certain things very explicitly ― they are all "vote captains", unless you say, "I will appoint people from the pro-democracy camp" ― but you did not do so. You have emerged victorious on all fronts and even Mr Ronny TONG also said just now, "All right, you will surely win" ― he is really giving other people a boost in morale while undermining his own power and prestige.
This is the situation. The number of seats held by the pro-democracy camp in DCs decreased from 151 in 2003 to 103 in 2011 and this has not factored in the increase in the number of seats. The same applies to the seats held by the pro-democracy camp in the Legislative Council. What else can they say? Now that the pro-establishment camp has emerged victorious in direct elections, the pro-democracy camp has to do some self-examination. What is the use of finding excuses? Today, I must criticize the functional constituencies, which are the cause of all evils, then tell the pro-democracy camp that it has been slow in realization ― let us not call this slow in realization because this is also a political deal ― frankly speaking, had it not been the support of the pseudo-democratic camp for the constitutional reform proposal in June 2010, would the Government have agreed to abolishing the appointed seats of the DCs in 2015? Basically, this is karma, but I will not thank them. If we review history, we would understand it. Why were all appointed seats abolished in 1994? Frankly speaking, the Government is utterly retrogressing.
Therefore, what we have to stress is that appointed seats should not exist at all and this is the justification. The justification is not, as some Members of the pro-democracy camp put it just now ― it is just like whining by an embittered women ― that they do not have as many resources as other people. Even if this is true, so what? The arrangement of appointed seats does not violate the law. If you do not believe it, you can inform the ICAC and tell it how the law has been violated, can you not? This is very simple. In each election, the ICAC received at least 2 000 complaints.
Today, if the appointed seats were to be abolished, of course, no one would oppose this in the legislature. However, why do we have to raise this for discussion? On constitutional development in Hong Kong, no matter if we describe it as a matter of "taking a retrogressive step" or a path fraught with obstacles, it all boils down to the problem with the system and this problem with the system is in turn a problem of people, that is, the lack of popular mandate for this regime. That day, I talked about "the one who only has lowly aides under LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12187 his command" and the President admonished me, saying that this comment could be applied to all places and that it could also be applied to my organization. Now, I no longer belong to any political party or grouping, so what you said was right. You were really astute. However, what I said was also right. Barry CHEUNG has now got into trouble. All that I said on that day referred to him. Do you still remember it? At that time, I was citing evidence in support of my claim that the Executive Council is full of lowly people and in the end, Barry CHEUNG got into trouble. Is this not proof of my claim of "lowly people"? It turns out that he is a thief.
I am only side-tracking. I still have more than a minute of speaking time. There is no reason for you to stop me, saying, "Mr WONG Yuk-man, please speak to the question or you have to sit down.". We will certainly support this motion but I must also point out that if all the appointed seats are abolished, the demarcation of the constituencies in all the DCs …… I hope the Secretary can listen to more views and think more carefully rather than making more blunders. This is one point.
The second is the functions of DCs. This is because the Government has failed to honour a cheque issued by it and gone back on its promises. The Government must strengthen the administrative functions of DCs and through the abolition of appointed seats, form completely new DCs. The Government must introduce two complementary measures, one being the demarcation of constituencies, which really must be done more carefully, so that no blunders would be made; and the second being the functions of DCs, which must be enhanced. I hope the Government can consider these two points. Thank you, President.
MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): President, the appointment system is a continuation of the work of the ruler or the power-that-be in districts. If the ruler, say, the Chief Executive or the Executive Council, wishes to make appointments to functional bodies, I would still see it as reasonable, such as the Chief Executive making appointments to the Housing Authority (HA), social welfare committees and committees that operate as consultants on financial matters. Why do I say that I still consider it reasonable? Because these functional bodies will tender advice to the Government on government policies. For example, if the Chief Executive had drawn up a manifesto during the election, he should, in accordance with his manifesto, facilitate the work of the HA through the housing bureau. 12188 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
In fact, the role of these various committees is to implement policies for the Government. However, District Councils (DCs) are non-functional groups; nor are they functional bodies. They are a parliamentary assembly, a venue for consulting public views. This venue for consultation of public opinions is not required to promote views, manifestoes or relevant work, just as the ruler is required to do, because the DCs are an advisory framework and a place where opinions are sought. In these places where opinions are sought, if the people who give opinions are not members of the public but people appointed by the ruler, it is actually like the ruler bringing his own voices into the parliamentary assembly and making his voices public opinions or pretences of such, since the ruler has turned himself into people who convey views to the Government. This is, in fact, a way to control public opinions. Therefore, supporters of democracy consider that an appointment system is even worse than functional constituencies.
The appointment system under a democracy is like a cat's dung in a bowl of porridge. Anyone who sees the cat's dung would not wish to eat the porridge. The appointment system is the archrival of democracy fighters. Since the first day when I participated in politics, the Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (ADPL) and I have opposed the appointment system.
DCs (formerly known as district boards) were established during the British rule. They were set up on a pilot basis in 1981 with all the seats being appointed seats. In March 1982, one third of the seats in the New Territories were directly elected, and in September 1982, one third of the seats in the urban areas were directly elected. Subsequently, with a term-on-term reduction in the number of appointed seats, the appointment system was fully abolished in 1994.
Some people have thrown weight behind the appointment system ― many pro-establishment Members have just said so ― the pro-establishment Members were actually opposed to the abolition of the appointment system back then. Today, when the Government proposes to abolish the appointment system, they nevertheless support or approve of the appointment system. Their reason is that appointed members are professional and wealthy. Besides, they come from different classes and districts, and their views are more reasonable because they do not have political aims and do not come from any constituency. However, the biggest problem with them is that they do not care about public opinions and do not collect public opinions. Some people argued that some appointed members have done so, such as Tom, Dick and Harry. Ninety-nine percent of the appointed members just do not do this, and most of them know only to defend LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12189 the Government's policies. Are there appointed members who oppose government policies? Yes, there are. But what do they oppose? They oppose just minor and trivial policies. When it comes to livelihood policies involving major district issues or political position or the development of democracy, they will all follow the Government.
Please tell me how many appointed members have held views different from that of the Government, especially on issues relating to the development of democracy. It is because they are appointed by the Government. I will not criticize these people for being hypocritical or deliberately toeing the line of Government. The appointed members are selected by the Government. People who do not see eye to eye with the Government will not be appointed in the first place. How many members of the People Power have been appointed? How many members of the ADPL have been appointed? Certainly, members of the ADPL oppose the appointment system and so, we will not accept any appointment even if we are offered it. This is precisely the problem with the appointment system, and the problem lies in the system and the source of its powers. The source of its powers dictates that this system can only find people in these statuses.
What will happen if they are returned by elections? President, the powers of people returned by elections naturally come from the local residents of the districts concerned. If the constituents are residents in the Mid-Levels, one will naturally speak up for residents in the Mid-Levels, and one will naturally promote the position and values of the middle class or the business community. If the constituents come from the impoverished districts, one will naturally speak up for residents in these districts, such as public housing tenants or people living in temporary housing areas and squatter areas. Let us look back on the 1980s. Members who were elected back in those years would discuss the problems of the squatter areas, but the representative of the Peak would not touch on these issues while people living in the squatter areas would not discuss matters relating to the Peak. This is all natural, and what is wrong with it? You may think that a district is too small with only 17 000 people. We must bear in mind that it is right for the representative of 17 000 people to discuss issues relating to these 17 000 people. If 17 000 people should discuss issues involving 300 000 people ― which is like DC members from a certain constituency having to discuss issues concerning the entire Sham Shui Po or Wong Tai Sin, and this is exactly the function performed by the Sham Shui Po DC and the Wong Tai Sin DC. When people from 30 constituencies come together and point out problems in the 12190 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 district, which hence infringe upon the interests of individual constituencies, the constituencies affected will raise objection. When an issue involves the interests of the entire district, all the 30 members will show support. For these members who are involved in the interests of the entire district, they are unlike those under the appointment system who are said to be able to discuss issues of the district from an overall perspective because they do not come from constituencies. Since this is how the system is like, we must look at the problem from the angle of the system.
So, this is precisely the problem of the appointment system. This is not about treating voters to seasonal delicacies such as snake feasts, vegetarian feasts, moon cakes and rice dumplings or organizing tours for them. This is why when Mr WONG Yuk-man mentioned these problems just now, we gave him a thumbs-up to show that we share his views. We do not wish to engage in an argument over this. If I have won a seat by treating voters to seasonal delicacies, I would rise to make a bow. This is not my constituency, and these are not my voters, and I cannot provide seasonal delicacies for this purpose. I will only serve communities that support us in implementing community reforms and social reforms.
Why is the ADPL willing to stay in and serve Sham Shui Po for three decades? This is an old district, a slump, and a community where reforms are warranted. We are willing to "蹲 點" (meaning to work in a selected grass-roots unit for investigation and study) in Sham Shui Po for three decades ― "蹲 點" is a term used in the Mainland ― How many political parties and how many people are willing to do so? I do not believe these seasonal delicacies can beat us. Of course, we do treat voters to such delicacies, too, but this is not our "main course".
President, the DCs, being a system comprising appointed and elected members and a parliamentary assembly ― I stress that they are a parliamentary assembly, not a functional organization ― should be made up of members who mainly come from the voters or the public directly or indirectly. This is the key point and everything else is secondary.
President, over the years, we have consistently supported and championed for the abolition of the appointment system for DCs. Never would I have possibly expected ― as a person who supported the reunification of Hong Kong in the 1980s, and the ADPL also supported the reunification of Hong Kong in the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12191
1980s ― that the SAR Government would, over such a significant issue and major principle, reinstate and restore the appointment system in 1999. The ADPL has since its establishment in 1986 opposed this appointment system at all levels. As I have just said, the appointment system is the archrival of the pro-democracy movement. I do not mean individual persons, but the system itself.
President, this proposal on the abolition of the appointment system is, in my view, long overdue indeed. Why do I say so? I remember the constitutional reform package in 2005, and I think the Secretary who is in this Chamber must have seen our negotiations with the Chief Executive. Although the negotiations were held in camera, I made public the entire process before and after the negotiations.
As Chief Executive Donald TSANG would need to secure six votes in order to get his reform package passed, he must have the supporting vote of the ADPL. The ADPL, therefore, put forward three conditions to him. First, he must provide a timetable and a roadmap for dual universal suffrage in the remaining one and a half years of his term (from 2005 to mid-2007); second, he must fully abolish the DC appointment system; and third, he must lead a deputation comprising the pan-democrats or members of the democratic camp to Beijing to discuss with the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office matters relating to the dual universal suffrage in future. Chief Executive Donald TSANG acceded to all of these demands at the time. In other words, it means that from administration or management to the development of parliamentary assemblies ― Chief Executive Donald TSANG might wish to secure my vote back in 2005 and considered that the DC appointment system could be used to trade in for this vote from us ― it means that the proposal to abolish the appointment system was feasible at the time and the Government was not afraid of doing it. But given insufficient votes, this agreement ultimately fell through but it shows that the abolition of the appointment system was a feasible idea back then.
The second time was the 2010 package. On the night before the package would be put to the vote, the Chief Executive approached me again, and I was not the only person whom he approached. Secretary Raymond TAM was also privy to this ― Sorry, and concerning the 2010 package, the Chief Executive only negotiated it with us, and the Secretary and his predecessor were also there in attendance. They hoped to solicit our support because they had already secured sufficient votes from the Democratic Party. But we insisted on the abolition of 12192 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 the appointment system and told them the ADPL would otherwise vote against the package. The Chief Executive acceded to our demand on that day and announced the next day and on the Thursday after the vote that public consultation would be conducted on the abolition of the appointment system in the autumn of 2010 before drafting the legislation for the purpose. I was persistent in pursuing this matter, and does the Secretary remember it? Had there been a consultation document or a conclusion drawn after the discussion, the appointment system would have been abolished before 2011, which means that the appointment system should not exist in the DC Election in 2011.
We are now in the year of 2013, and is it late? It is late for a term. The Chief Executive promised on that day that a consultation document would be published in the autumn of 2010, but he cheated me. He cheated me out of my vote. Of course, some people may ask why Frederick FUNG is so stupid that he, after being cheated once, continues to be cheated. As someone who engages in politics, I agree to the need of negotiation. I believe the other party at the negotiation table, like me, would wish to settle some political issues through negotiation. But I was cheated as a result, and I can even tell everyone openly that I was cheated! But though I was cheated, I am not hurt by it, and the person who is hurt should be Chief Executive Donald TSANG. He who held such a high position as the Chief Executive cheated a Member of this Council!
President, do the DCs serve any functions? The ADPL won more than half of the seats in Sham Shui Po DC in the 1990s. Let me tell Members that DCs do serve functions. The ADPL did not need to make much effort; nor did we stage petitions and rallies, but it was through lobbying that we secured support from the Housing Department (HD), the HA and the Urban Council for the redevelopment of Cheung Sha Wan Estate ― Due to a collapse accident, it was originally planned that the residents would be relocated to other districts. At that time, we proposed that the adjacent park site be used and eventually facilitated an early land exchange between the Leisure and Cultural Services Department and the HD, so that the HD could develop the existing Fortune Estate on the park site to provide in-situ rehousing for residents affected by the redevelopment of Cheung Sha Wan Estate. The residents were then rehoused in the adjacent Fortune Estate and after Cheung Sha Wan Estate was pulled down, a park was developed on the site.
With regard to the renewal of old districts, the Government had never paid attention to Sham Shui Po. We, therefore, lobbied the Urban Renewal Authority LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12193 to accord priority to the redevelopment of Sham Shui Po after 1997 and 11 redevelopment areas were identified in a few years' time. In respect of district management, drying racks were a problem all over the territory at the time. I believe Members have been aware of this problem since a decade ago but Sham Shui Po was the first district where this problem was raised for discussion. After discussions, the views were submitted to the Legislative Council which subsequently referred the issue to other DCs for discussion. Drying racks can now be retrofitted outside the living room of units in all old housing estates. I wonder if Members know that there were no street lamps in all the alleys in Hong Kong 15 years ago. After discussions in the Sham Shum Po DC, the installation of street lamps was approved by a majority of vote. Street lamps are now installed in all the alleys in Hong Kong. Members must not think that the installation of street lamps is easy because it is an important question as to who will be responsible for their installation. Should it be the HD, the Buildings Department, the Highways Department or the Lands Department? As no department was willing to take up this job at that time, we eventually had to spend two years to enable an agreement to be reached.
On the question of hawking, there was not any market in Nam Cheong Street and Pei Ho Street back in the 1980s and a total of 1 000 unlicensed and licensed hawkers subsequently had to be removed. On the day of the removal operation, a few hundred hawkers besieged the Hawker Control Team while yelling and hurling abuses at them. As a result, it was after discussion by the Sham Shui Po DC and members from the ADPL that the Pei Ho Street Market was provided. We even reached an agreement on the designation of hawker areas with yellow box markings, and these yellow box markings were also one of our inventions back then.
I also wish to cite a simple example. In the 1980s, after receiving complaints from street sleepers, we urged the Government through the DC to come up with a policy to deal with street sleepers properly. This matter was subsequently referred to the District Office, but it was because we had staged protests that they were willing to take up this matter. As we have not staged any protest now, they are no longer paying attention to it.
President, do the DCs have any functions? These are all their functions, though they are indirect rather than direct. But I maintain that the DCs have a role to play, but what can we do about them? President, if the DCs will not be developed or they will remain as an advisory framework, I agree that a 12194 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 proportional representation system should be adopted, for this will enable all political parties and groupings, community groups and the disadvantaged to have the opportunity to be elected to DCs, just as the Legislative Council comprising Members from various political parties. But if the DCs will be developed into a parliamentary assembly with solid powers, similar to municipal councils in other places, and if they will be even made responsible for managing policies in their districts, I will oppose adopting the proportional representation system because it will only cause continued divisions in the DCs and preclude them from accomplishing anything. If we want the DCs to have solid powers, the political parties or people managing the DCs must be given solid powers and for this reason, the "single seat, single vote" system must be adopted. But then, how should the DCs develop?(The buzzer sounded) …… I hope that the Government can further discuss this issue.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr FUNG, your speaking time is up.
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): President, I wish to declare my interest first. I am a DC member. I have been a member since the first term of district boards, and I used to be a member of the Urban Council (UC) as well. So, I have a deep understanding of how the DCs and the UC compare with each other in terms of their duties and functions.
The Government always stresses the need to delegate powers to DCs, hoping to expand their scope of work or powers, but every time when the Government conducts consultation on or a review of DCs, it just never examines the relevant provisions in law. The District Council Ordinance states right from the outset that the DCs are just advisory bodies and so, every time when Secretary Raymond TAM discusses the DC review and passes this job to the Home Affairs Bureau, I think it obviously shows the Government's reluctance to conduct a review. At the end of the day, the conclusion drawn on every DC review is that more funding should be provided to DCs, such as providing $100 million to each DC for development purposes, or providing each DC with $30 million for construction projects and an additional $30 million for community building as a result of the two reviews conducted some time ago.
As a result, the DCs have become a political framework which is given attention when its service is needed but neglected when it is not. Is this in any LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12195 way helpful to the Government in nurturing political talents? I think colleagues in government departments know the answer only too well. People often say, "No, this is not true, because we do have many colleagues who started out as DC members and this is proof that DC members have a role to play.". Certainly, since we have so many colleagues working in the DCs, I entirely do not rule out the possibility of some individuals managing to move upward to become Members of the Legislative Council or take up work at higher levels through this very channel. Having said that, is it possible for this structure of DCs, being a political system or political organization, to achieve the objective of nurturing political talents? My answer is: The result is indeed utterly disappointing.
Let us take an overview of the DCs and the Legislative Council. The Government may often mention that a group of DC members has been elected to the Legislative Council. If we do some counting here, we can see that Mr LEUNG Che-cheung used to be a Member of the Regional Council (RC); Mr Christopher CHUNG used to be a UC Member and so did Mr WONG Kwok-hing. Mr KAM Nai-wai of the last term used to be a UC Member, and I myself was also a UC Member. I am not saying that we have broader outlooks because we were UC Members before, just that as we can see from the objective conditions, the fully directly-elected UC and RC, which were rather short-lived, had actually done a lot of work in the training of political talents. However, the Government subsequently scrapped them. After scrapping the two Municipal Councils, the Government deceived all the DCs that they would be given more powers. What powers are they? What powers can they have?
When we discuss staff deployment, say, when we consider it necessary to extend the opening hours of libraries in the districts, do the authorities allow us to do so? They certainly do not allow it because this will affect the overall manpower resources. When we hope to reprioritize some construction projects in the districts, do we know how the resources are arranged? There is no way for us to find out about it. As a result, DC members in their districts always ― Put it in our words, we have powers and we can oppose anything or hang our amendments onto the "Christmas tree" of government policies until it is all full. But do we need to consider the relevant resource support? We do not need to particularly consider it because the management of resources does not rest with us. This is entirely different from the Municipal Councils.
In the Municipal Councils, we had in our hands government rates ― the resources provided to us by the Government every year ― and we must decide 12196 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 how they should be utilized. When we clearly made a decision to proceed with item A, it might in turn reduce the resources for item B. This is what a political person most needs to learn in a parliamentary assembly or in the process of political training. But we have lost this opportunity because the Government has scrapped the two Municipal Councils.
The Government has not only scrapped the two Municipal Councils, but also gone further to state by hook or by crook that appointed members have great values, adding that appointed members can provide professional advice to DCs and that to people who are interested in taking part in politics but do not wish to run in elections, this can provide a channel for them to become DC members. Why should we do this? If those remarks can stand to reason, honestly, why should we need elections? We would need no elections. From the angle of the Government, this is meant to appoint people whom it considers suitable, in order to offer advice and solutions to the Government on its policies.
The problem is that the Government has all along considered the role of appointed members vitally important and indispensable. In fact, TUNG Chee-hwa made arrangements for the appointment of DC members right away in 1997, and this is telling us that ― as he said it very clearly ― the purpose is to balance the political forces in DCs. By balancing the political forces in DCs, it means ensuring that the power of the pro-establishment camp can be brought into play in DCs. How can this be a reason for the Government to make a policy decision? This is particularly so when it involves political policies. When a political system applies this logic, it means that the Government has obviously declared war on the system of DC members who are elected by the people and who have the people's mandate. This is absolutely unacceptable.
Our debate on this Bill today is to discuss the abolition of the appointment system. We certainly welcome this, and how can one oppose it? But as Mr WONG Yuk-man said earlier, it is still necessary to debate structural problems in order to explain them clearly to the public.
However, there is another question which has aroused less attention among the public but the Government has exploited it by making use of its own political influence. It is the demarcation of constituency areas. For the purpose of demarcation of constituency areas, there is originally a clear guideline which provides for a basis of 17 000 voters. This is used as the population quota, having regard to the principle of community integrity. So, this is the most LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12197 fundamental basis. But if we look at the past several DC Elections, we will find that many constituencies were split up or fragmented. Let me cite an example to explain this. Tak Tin Estate in Lam Tin is divided into two constituencies under the Government's plan. Why? Can this preserve community integrity? People can hardly believe that the Government does not have any political mission in dividing a community into several constituencies.
It is difficult to cite all the examples in detail as there are too many of them. But in the forthcoming DC Election, if the Government, on the question of the demarcation of constituency areas, cannot address the political interferences in the process of demarcation, the community or members of the general public would lose their confidence in the electoral system. What good does it do? Why should we do this? Does the Government not always stress the need to attract political talents through elections and the wish to see more participation? Speaking of participation, we also have to consider balanced participation, rather than encouraging one-sided participation or skewing towards the pro-establishment camp. Why should so many "small gestures" be made in respect of the electoral system?
Second, the size of DC constituencies is very small at present. As a constituency has only 17 000 residents, four or five buildings can already form a constituency. Some colleagues opined that small constituencies have caused DC members to become short-sighted and as a result, when we discuss major issues in DCs, we may concentrate or over-emphasize the interests of a small constituency. Should we change this system? Should we come up with ways to enable DC members to think out of the pure or lesser interests of their constituency in considering policies? What can we do?
Expanding constituency areas and increasing the population quota for a constituency can be a way, or a "double seats, double votes" system can be adopted. Simply put, the electoral system is changed in the hope that DC members will see the need to broaden their targeted scope of interests and realize that their failure to do so will take toll at the foundation for them to be re-elected in future. Have you ever thought about it?
If you have thought about it, the best proof is that next time when you conduct a DC review, you should not again pass it to the Home Affairs Bureau. I hope that Secretary Raymond TAM will agree to personally taking charge of the review of DCs. The reason is that for an issue relating to the constitutional 12198 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 system, if the Secretary is not taking the lead to do the relevant work, how can the Home Affairs Bureau be expected to do this job effectively? The Home Affairs Bureau can only work in accordance with the guideline under the District Councils Ordinance (Cap. 547). What can the Home Affairs Bureau do? In fact, there is really nothing that it can do, for the Bureau can only play an advisory role and does not have powers to carry out work in other areas.
In the past, the law conferred on the UC powers relating to various municipal affairs, while the Urban Services Department was also empowered to enforce decisions made by the UC. Moreover, the Chairman of UC could write the annual appraisal of the performance of the Director of Urban Services. Is such a system in place for DCs? No, it is not. If we want to change this situation, we will not succeed if we do not revamp the system but only make minor patch-ups and provide more funding as suggested by Mr IP Kwok-him who often said that it is necessary to fight for more resources for DC members.
In fact, only a small number of DC members share my view. I think if the constituency area remains so small, we really should not provide additional resources to DC members. Let us make a comparison. For instance, in the Wong Tai Sin DC and Kwun Tong DC or the Kowloon East, we have 63 DC members (excluding appointed DC members). Each DC member can have resources amounting to some $50,000 monthly, including accountable expenses. How much is it to multiply $50,000 by 63? It is more than $3 million. What about Members of the Legislative Council? All the resources that five Members of the Legislative Council can have are no more than $1.5 million.
From the above figures, there is a big difference between the DCs and the Legislative Council in the amount of resources given to them. Our work covers the entire …… I said just now that adding 25 and 38 makes a total of 63 constituencies, and a DC member is required to handle the affairs of only one constituency. From this angle, the resources provided to DC members are absolutely not small at all. If the Government would like more political talents to join the Government, it should think about why, under the UC system in the past, people of relatively better quality from various political parties and groupings could join the parliamentary assembly to offer advice and solutions on the policies of Hong Kong. If the work of DC members is limited to a small community and if their task is to give advice only, the Government has, in fact, made arrangements for various organizations to perform this role. For instance, Area Committees are set up in various districts and their structure is more LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12199 meticulous. From this perspective, the work of DC members can be easily taken up by other organizations.
Therefore, in this debate on the District Councils Ordinance, I actually most wish that Secretary Raymond TAM can hear the point raised by Members about how much effort the Government is willing to make in respect of the role of DC members and the nurturing of political talents, and whether it is willing to further enhance the political power and participation of DC members, instead of making arrangements in the system which cause DC members to see no further than their noses, just as it has been doing now.
With these remarks, I support the amendments. Thank you, President.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, we cannot and we should not oppose this Amendment Bill. But we may as well recap some history. DCs serve several different functions. In the British Hong Kong Administration era, district boards were set up as a means to realize the district administration system. With the reunification in 1997, we all know that the DCs took on a new function and, that is, to groom political talents in preparation for and take forward the principles of "Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong" and "one country, two systems". Of course, there are also many people who regard DCs as a training ground to train up mature political talents.
However, as we review the development in Hong Kong over the past some 30 years, I would think that it is absolutely disappointing. As many Honourable colleagues have pointed out, under the influence of the Hong Kong SAR Government, the functions and image of DCs have been belittled. Recently in the 18 districts territory-wide, face-lifting projects worth $100 million each have been proposed, and they are classic examples. These white elephant projects are meant to erect landmarks in the districts concerned, but when people look at these projects proposed by the DCs, they cannot help laughing. These projects are of such a low level and even bad taste that they can be seen as stupid. Examples are the erecting of sculptures of a goose or a ring as the landmarks for the districts concerned. One just wonders why such ideas can be proposed. But the Government seems to be very happy because the more the DCs belittle themselves and the more bad taste they have, the Government would be happier.
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President, in the past when the Government conducted consultations, it would often first reach a consensus with the Legislative Council or the public. Proposals were made and it would be stated that the Government had managed to garner much support. Then these proposals were implemented. But now things are different. For the Government, the policy papers which it submits often cannot pass any test and no consensus can be reached during discussions in the Legislative Council, and so policies are handed over to the DCs and often support is secured in almost all the 18 districts in Hong Kong. As we all know, under the present constitutional arrangements, the DCs have appointed members, ex officio members and the many pro-establishment political parties who come to the defence of the Government. And it goes without saying that the Government sets aside huge amounts of resources to help DC members in their election campaigns. Those so-called Environment and Conservation Fund and Community Investment and Inclusion Fund have caused many disputes in this Council as funding applications are submitted to the Finance Committee because government funding is meant to help people on the Government's side ascend on the political ladder.
It turns out that investments of this kind do yield returns. All those unpopular policies, provided that they are handed to the 18 DCs and undergo a cooling period, they will get the full support of the chairmen of these 18 DCs and as a result the Government can proceed with what it sets out to do. Can this be called public opinion? Forget it. In fact, most of the government policies agreed and supported by the DCs will not get extensive support from the public in the end, nor can they get the support of most Members of the Legislative Council returned by popular elections. As we have just said, the Government indulges in a feeling of self-complacency and a make-believe world created by itself. There is a view which I do not wish to talk about and that is, the DCs are slowly changing into a modern version of the Boxers. In other words, with the creation of DCs by the Government and the assistance it provides to them, the Government manages to hold on to many unpopular and retrogressive policies such as Old Age Living Allowance, refusal to take forward universal retirement protection, the unpopular healthcare reform, mandatory medical insurance, and so on. Most of these policies and proposals are supported at the first instance they are presented to the DCs. And we can detect this if our heads are cool enough.
But the Government should not feel at ease or happy about it, because this is in actual fact counter-productive. There are some political talents and let us put aside the democrats camp, and if we would talk about only Honourable LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12201 colleagues from the pro-establishment camp, we would feel dismayed. Just now a colleague of this Council, Mr Christopher CHUNG, made a groundless attack on my party comrade, Dr Kenneth CHAN. This Mr CHUNG is a very experienced DC member and he often takes pride in that. But his performance often makes us laugh. For example, he says in his Facebook that he is a Member of the Council from the Hong Kong Republic and a Member of the "主 法 會".1 If this is the kind of political talents the Hong Kong Government wants to groom, it is really ridiculous.
For us we may think that this practice can be regarded as all right because after all, the Government should nurture talents for the pro-establishment camp. This is something it should do because in the context of constitutional development, we would also hope that there can be a law on political parties some day and that all the Members of the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive can be returned by universal suffrage. It is true that we need political talents, but not this kind. We do not want those tiny constituencies formed by just 17 000 constituents where trivial matters are raised and magnified, thinking that in so doing political talents can be attracted. We hope to see aspiring young people who are committed to developing a career in politics have a chance to train themselves in the DCs. Then some day they can take part in politics under a mature political system. They can then enact a mature piece of legislation on political parties. In the end, there can be development of the DCs which is orderly and carries clearly defined goals. If the DCs and the Legislative Council can face the public and the whole society, this would offer solutions to Hong Kong's problems. But what we see now are actions meant to condescend and deprecate the DCs.
Now there are many of this kind of low quality people in the DCs. Of course, it is easy to get their consent. Whenever the Government has got any requests, provided that these people are informed, they would be happy to oblige. But would this be helpful to Hong Kong? Can this steer our political system towards the direction of developing more competent political parties and politics? Can you find people who can replace you and become top officials? Do you think so? If not, this kind of practice will only hamper the development of Hong Kong. Some people may say that there is a motive behind it, a conspiracy, and it is a preferred option. Because DCs of this calibre can never hope to produce
1 This must be a typographical error for it should be "立法會", that is, the Legislative Council. 12202 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 talents and so naturally, it obviates the need for constitutional development. Universal suffrage can be held further back. But this kind of practice is not in line with Hong Kong's development, something which voters and the public would not like to see.
We hope that with the amendments made to the DCs, the political system here can grow into maturity. The constituencies should be expanded and more resources should be allocated to the DCs. Secretary, I do not think you are not aware that before 1997, district administration used to be something with the British Hong Kong Government could boast about. At that time, all those who could become District Officers were all stars in the Administrative Officer grade. That means these people were considered as possessing the abilities to go further up. So they became District Officers under the district administration system. Many top officials used to be District Officers. An example is Stephen IP. But can we find such people now? Can you name someone who used to be a District Officer but is promoted to the rank to which you now belong? Now some District Officer posts are held by officers from the Senior Executive Officer grade. This is really belittling them.
At that time in the 1980s and early 1990s, we used to hold enormous expectations for district administration and the DCs. This resulted in many people aspiring to run in the DC elections during the early 1990s. In 1994 when I first ran in the DC elections, I had this mindset. But I found out later that things became far short of my expectations. Not only were the DCs not moving forward but in many cases they were moving back or standing still. It was something we did not wish to see. Now the Government hands out some trivial tasks to the DCs, such as erecting some landmarks, inspecting the alleys, organizing cleaning campaigns for officials, and so on. But do these help the constitutional development of Hong Kong? No, certainly not. The development of DCs in the real sense of the word should be towards better DCs, more resources and powers, the constituencies should be enlarged and DC members should be groomed so that they can become Members of the Legislative Council some day. And they can be cultivated to develop an ability to take part in politics and make quality contribution. This will enable young people aspiring to develop a career in politics to ascend on the ladder rung by rung.
In the long run and as mentioned by Mr WU Chi-wai, a DC like the Kwai Tsing DC, which only covers some hundreds of thousand residents and which has an electoral base of 511 000 electors, can have 35 DC members. But a DC like LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12203 the Tsuen Wan DC which covers 300 000 people has only 22 DC members. The Tuen Mun DC serves a population of 487 000, but there are 35 DC members. That is to say, each DC member is returned by an average of 17 000 electors. This kind of arrangement puts off many people who may be interested. But more of these experienced DC members still remain in such posts. Yet I do not think this will do Hong Kong any good.
President, we know that regardless of who will become the Chief Executive, and no matter if the pro-establishment camp or the democrats will become the majority in this Council, we hope that more talents can join this Council. Likewise, we hope that more people with vision and quality can join the DCs. Now it is very difficult to retain young people and persuade them to run in DC elections because there are no prospects or opportunities for them. They can expect only a remuneration of some $20,000 and they can only claim expenses amounting to about $25,000. If the area of the constituencies can be doubled, that is, if every DC member can be returned by at least 34 000 people, this will in effect give him more authority in district administration. This would be true authority, not the authority to build landmarks. And the DCs which propose to erect such landmarks will not be laughed for their stupid ideas. The Government can give them real authority such as assuming a certain role in district administration or having some say in financial matters, and a certain system can be set up so that DCs can examine and assess the performance of government departments in the districts concerned.
Now the District Management Committees are chaired by the District Officers. Some kind of change should be made in the future and that is, the chairmen of these Committees should be elected from among all popularly elected DC members of quality. This is the practice found in many overseas parliamentary assemblies. If the number of DC members can be reduced by half, the scope of their duties can be enlarged. Given the same amount of public money, each DC member can be eligible for reimbursable expenses amounting to about $50,000 monthly. This can give them greater room to bring their talents into play. When this is added to a remuneration of about $40,000, it can retain talents to serve the districts.
I would also like to talk about the issue of ex officio members which is not mentioned in this Bill. The existence of ex officio members is also a most unfair arrangement. The constituencies to which these ex officio members belong already have members returned by popular elections. But why do we not give 12204 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 political talents a chance and instead appoint ex officio members? This practice is not in line with the development of representative government. If only a person is committed to serving the public, even though he or she may have a rural background, he or she is still qualified to stand in an election. And since many people with such rural background can win in an election, there is no need to afford them any special protection.
President, this is a long overdue move to abolish the system of appointment. But it is only a very small step forward. What we need to change the DCs so that they can become an important part in the political development of Hong Kong is more courage and vision. I can only hope that the current-term Government and Director of Bureau can do their best to DCs a worthy framework that can attract more outstanding talents.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, as the saying goes, those talented people would not join the ranks of one who only has lowly aides under his command. I found it laughable when I heard you quarrel with Mr WONG Yuk-man. Certainly, MENG Chang-jun did not appoint those people as his "guests". He entertained them just because they had come without being invited. Honestly, it is similar to the existing appointment system in Hong Kong. Given the large number of "lowly people" who wished to be invited as "guests" and the need to work in accordance with the Basic Law, MENG Chang-jun could only opt for an appointment system. The Executive Council is actually formed in this manner. Now, everyone is talking about the appointment system. Some people hold that the electoral and appointment systems are two concepts in dichotomy. This idea is wrong. Election is actually the best way of making appointments through popular mandate. Certainly, a president will pick and appoint his ministers. This is the case in the United States. After the President is elected, he will pick his aides. The Congress can only comment on the choice of candidates for the Justices at the most.
President, since the system has rotten to the very core, what is the point of talking about the DC appointment system? Five out of the 10-odd people have already been found to be problematic. I wonder if the rest of them will be found problematic, too. Nevertheless, some people still wish to defend the system. Honestly, if LEUNG Chun-ying were really elected by 6.9 million rather than 689 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12205 people, he would have been empowered to do so. But was that really the case? Has he been authorized to make appointments and bear the consequences? No, that was not really the case. It is really laughable that we are still discussing here whether DC appointed seats should be retained when the system has rotten to the very core. I remember Mr Frederick FUNG once bragged on and on here, saying his goal was to fight for the abolition of the appointment system for all DC members. Even "covetous TSANG" once said, to this effect, "Having all DC seats directly elected in 2016 is absolutely out of the question should the pro-democracy camp reject the 2012 constitutional reform package. I will never accede to their call for the abolition of the appointment system". He even resorted to extortion by offering us so little, as if some unwanted food on the table had been swept under the carpet but still we were asked, "Do you still want these two grains of rice?" Honestly, it is really shameful.
President, the functions of DCs were certainly related to the wish of the British Hong Kong Government to shape public opinion. Undeniably, there was a need for Hong Kong to develop district administration because, with the expansion of various districts and the emergence of many new towns, consultation was required for development projects. Second, there was a need for the British Hong Kong Government to set up district boards to boost Hong Kong's status for the introduction of the so-called "three-legged stool" during the Sino-British talks. After this purpose was achieved, the British Hong Kong Government certainly had lost interest in pursuing the development of district boards. As a result, it suggested before its departure that "all appointed seats be directly elected". However, after the extremely rotten TUNG Chee-hwa Administration ascended to power, the appointment system was revived immediately. Otherwise, what else can we discuss today? Of course, the pro-establishment Members at that time expressed support for the revival of the appointment system by TUNG Chee-hwa. But now, in order to pledge allegiance to another Chief Executive, they are calling for the abolition of the appointment system.
President, are the final decisions not made entirely by the Mainland? Because of the keen observations of the LOCPG, the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office and the Central Leading Small Group, a decision of robbing Peter to help John was made, whereby a little benefit was offered to encourage them to make a volte-face. At that time, appointed DC members were described as supreme and irreplaceable, because the standard of elected DC members was considered extremely poor, whereas appointed DC members were proved to be fit 12206 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 for appointment because of their competence. People who made such comments were actually wasting time. Was the Hong Kong Government not big enough? Why did they not seek appointment as government officials and take up public offices in other statutory bodies? Why did they want to be appointed as DC members? These arguments were actually untenable. Why did they choose to be appointed as DC members?
Hence, as an idiom goes, "His success was on account of Xiao He, and his defeat was on account of Xiao He (The key to his success is also his undoing)". When "Grandpa" wishes to do something, a reason must be found. President, you understand this all too well. Holding a pair of scissors here, you can wield them in the air at any time, only that you have to decide when and how to act and find a better justification. It is so simple. This Council is so corrupt that it is devoid of logic and independent thinking. How can Members still talk about dignity?
President, it is much too boring. Let me tell you a story. When a Civil Rights Act on the rights of black people was discussed in the United States Senate in May 1964, a 26-year-old black man called Kenneth WASHINGTON ― not George WASHINGTON, the Founding Father of the United States ― walked into the Senate building but was barred by the guards from entering the chamber. As a result, he said in the corridor, "How can we believe that you are protecting the blacks? Of the 100 Senators in the United States, only five are blacks, and only two of them will speak. The 30 million people in the United States do not know what you are doing here." President, he was regarded as a mental patient because he was speaking the truth. Like this man, I was expelled by you and criticized by others for filibustering. This legislature has simply failed to discharge its function. Although I am not WASHINGTON or a black, what else can I do in this insane and distorted legislature where only half of its Members have popular mandate?
The logic of debating the DC appointment system here today is indeed very simple: Should certain people be allowed to enjoy more rights than others? This is precisely the point made by George ORWELL. When the highest point in the entire political system is the darkest place, if you ask the darkest person ― Satan, the devil ― to carry out reform, you have to ask whether he is going to reform heaven or hell. The higher a political structure is, the darker and more closed it is. Have you ever seen a house in the form of an inverted triangle standing LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12207 firmly? No way. It will definitely collapse and crush people to death. Raymond TANG will definitely be fine even if he sits here daydreaming.
President, the appointment system is certainly the source of all evils. It might become even more evil if people with even less mandate in turn appoint other people. Is this the case with Hong Kong? Yes, precisely. President, some people say that political talents should be nurtured through the appointment system. To put it somewhat crudely, are we going to nurture soccer stars through holding soccer matches between the able-bodied and the disabled? Here is the venue for such matches to be held. Furthermore, some people can play in these matches direct without going through qualifying matches, and what is more, reject or recommend other people. This is what the appointment system and political trust involving functional constituencies are all about. The two are the easiest to control.
Coming back to the appointment system, all members can be described as appointed because some of them are ex officio members and some are elected after obtaining several hundred votes. President, it is not going to work, right? Otherwise, this situation should not have emerged. Assuming a discussion is held among DCs on the spending of $50 billion on introducing universal retirement protection, I can tell you that if influential people in the top echelons disapprove of it, the DCs will also raise objection. I can assure you they will behave in this manner.
If Miss Alice MAK's comment that they work very hard is a fact, there is no need for explanation as brainwashing will be conducted after the offer of seasonal delicacies. A meal cannot influence the brains of the people, unless they are infected with swine fever after eating raw meat. They should not have distributed raw meat to the people, right? After washing someone's brain, they will have one more public opinion machine to serve the dictatorial system for political rewards. Members will know what I mean by looking at the Executive Council appointed by the Chief Executive. Executive Council Members are truly "lowly people". Yuk-man has actually shown much respect for the Chief Executive by describing the Executive Council in this manner. In fact, five Executive Council Members have been found problematic. The expression "雞 鳴狗盜" (meaning "lowly people") consists of four Chinese words only, right? Confucius once said that he had 3 000 students and 70 of them became scholars, but LEUNG Chun-ying has only 15, and yet some of them ran into trouble. What has he done? President, for the sake of discussion, the coterie Chief 12208 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Executive Election, which is similar to an appointment system, and the appointment system, whereby the power of the minority can override that of all constituents, must be abolished. Otherwise, we will not know how to begin.
President, we should begin discussing what should be done in 2016-2017. DCs are useless. Furthermore, many people defending the appointment system emphasize the importance of nurturing political talents. Should political talents not be nurtured through practical experience? Should political talents not act like WU Wai-kin, who fled the Shaolin Temple by crawling out from the dog's hole? We must bear in mind that WU Wai-kin was beaten to death in the end. What does real political experience involve? The political experience gained in Hong Kong nowadays involves all these questions: Should Hong Kong people enjoy universal suffrage and when can they do so? What arrangements should be made in the run-up to 2017? With respect to 2016, what arrangements should be made? The problem faced by Hong Kong people is that 700 000 elderly people have no more money to sustain their living. All this involves real political experience. He who can do practical work for Hong Kong people will have a chance to become a political talent.
President, I know I have been beaten by you. However, I must tell you I will never give up. Just prepare to cut off the filibuster again next year. How can a person polish his political skills in this amphitheatre, the Legislative Council? There is simply no need for debate and address here. Like the Olympic Games, the Legislative Council has included a new event, namely the pressing of the voting button with one's thumb. This event is even more important than the decathlon. Certainly, the little finger may also be used, though it is pretty awful when the finger is used for nose picking.
President, I am almost done. I think it is really enlightening for this deal to be laid on the table of the Legislative Council for endorsement. It means that one can get small gains only after negotiating with the communists. As 2016 is fast approaching, they have begun asking the pro-democracy camp again whether it is willing to swallow a booger ― 2016. If they disagree, they will have no chance to have a big feast, which means that discussion on the issue of 2017 will be out of the question. This is how they are threatening us now, right?
President, there are two views on this issue. First, there is nothing wrong with the appointment system and unequal rights. This I disagree. Of all the trust systems, although elections allowing equal rights of political participation LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12209 might not always achieve the best result, they are relatively fair because voters are accountable for their wrong decisions. In the present case, however, we are held accountable for the appointments made by someone else.
President, I would like to talk to you, but I know I will be expelled by you again. I have written a poem dedicated to you, "I have the right to speak, but you do not let me; please repay the debt, let me see your membership card". I cannot but ask you this question again: Are you a communist? I am not greedy. You have denied me the right to speak 10 times and expelled me, thus adding up to 11 times. I only ask you to show me your card. Do you have it with you? Let me see it if you have it ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, you have strayed away from the question.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): Right, I certainly know that I am not supposed to say it, and it will be disastrous for me to do so. President, I am convinced that you are a communist. I hereby proclaim that you are a communist. It is most regrettable ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, you have strayed away from the question.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): I am telling you that I will definitely continue to filibuster to fight for universal retirement protection for all elderly persons. Just prepare to cut off the filibuster next time.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, you have strayed away from the question.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): Quick, let me see your card. Goodbye.
12210 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I would like to express my support for the Amendment Bill which is going through the resumed Second Reading.
The appointment system of DCs has already existed since the 1980s. It has been in existence since the setting up of district boards. The abolition of the appointment system today indicates the completion of its historic mission. What is its historic mission? As I have served as a district board or DC member since 1994, I have some knowledge of this episode of history. From my observation made while working in a DC for several terms, I think the appointment system can help DCs make various considerations from different perspectives, including the professional perspective. Some upright appointed DC members can also tender useful advice to the Government, including advice that even elected members dare not raise. In this regard, I believe credit in this part of history should be recorded against such members.
Just now a pan-democratic Member claimed that the appointment system aims at providing political rewards to members of the pro-establishment camp. I think such an argument is overly one-sided and erroneous. In retrospect, I remember that in the election of Chairman of the Central and Western DC in 2000, a member of the Democratic Party was elected with the support of appointed members. He later realized that it was politically incorrect and thus resigned. This goes to show that the appointment system does not aim at giving away political reward. On the contrary, the appointed members can make their own choice and the choice is not necessarily made in favour of the pro-establishment camp. Some may fall into the hands of the democrats. However, after being given a favour, the democrats severely criticized the appointment system. Is this not self-deception? Is such an argument not due to half-baked knowledge of the appointment system?
In my opinion, the appointment system is the product of the so-called "progressive and orderly" democratization during the development process of district administration. To achieve his political objectives, Chris PATTEN confronted Beijing in 1994. As a result, the political system changed from a "through train" to "starting a new kitchen". Hence, the SAR Government can only accept the established system under the "separate kitchen". After 10 years of development, the appointment system has to complete its historic mission and be abolished.
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We believed that the DC appointment system played an important role in the past and its importance is proven. In fact, the appointment system is not bad as reflected by the work of DCs. But for the sake of its functions, it should be transformed into a democratic system and direct elections should be implemented. Moreover, many appointed members have striven to become elected members gradually and continued to play their roles in the DCs. Thus, this is an inevitable consequence of historical development.
After the abolition of the appointment system, what counter-measures should the Government adopt so that the new DCs, in the absence of an appointment system, can widely solicit professional advice that I mentioned just now, and views which are taboos to elected members but truly reflect some people's wishes? I think we have to do something with respect to the reform of DCs. The first thing is to strengthen and enhance the functions of the existing DCs so that they can genuinely do a good job in district management and serving the public.
In respect of district management, as DCs are a structure endowed with "non-constitutional powers", they are only advisory bodies unable to play a leading role in respect of significant events or important matters in the local communities. Consequently, government departments implement their measures in spite of the DCs' views. Out of 10 discussions by the DCs, nine were ignored by the Government precisely because the DCs do not have the necessary powers. Thus, the reform that the Government should consider in the context of the abolition of the appointment system is to upgrade the DC's powers in district administration.
To achieve this, the most crucial factor is to expand the arrangement adopted by the Government since the beginning of the last-term DCs. Back then, the Government increased the funding for district administration by $0.2 million so that DCs could decide on their own the implementation of some minor works projects. Furthermore, the Government has recently set up a funding of $100 million for the DCs to provide infrastructure and services essential to people's livelihood. However, these account for only a small part of district administration, failing to focus on the needs of community work and the public, or make any breakthrough in this regard. So, I think the Government should gradually delegate street management, work relating to hygiene problems and restaurant management to the DCs, thereby giving DC members the opportunity to gain experience when DCs have taken up such responsibilities. 12212 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
In doing so, the DCs will learn how to tackle matters that are previously handled by the Government. This is the proper step to reform the DCs in a pragmatic manner.
In addition, as the DCs can only play an advisory role, particularly in respect of some major social issues, they always give people an impression of being a venue from empty talk. Worse still, even though they have expressed their views, the departments concerned will not follow up. Hence, to reform the DCs, their authority in administrative framework should also be enhanced. Although the DCs are only advisory bodies under the Basic Law, District Officers may be empowered to enhance the authority of DCs, which can then instruct other departments, through the District Officers, to complement their district administrative work.
Today, the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) explained to the Yuen Long DC the causes of a light rail derailment incident on 17 May. However, the MTR staff who explained the incident was not candid enough. Unfortunately, the DC has no authority to compel the MTRCL to give a truthful account. Neither could it ensure that the MTRCL would review in practical terms the causes of the light rail accident and safety issues in the future. However, this is a major concern of the public because it is related to their personal safety. Thus, it is most imperative that the DCs can have greater powers to oblige the relevant authorities to be accountable to the DCs. Therefore, in my opinion, the Government should study whether it is necessary to reform the functions of DCs when the appointment system has been abolished. In doing so, the DCs will be able to advance with the times and establish a close relationship with the needs of society and the people.
An Honourable colleague mentioned just now that there would be a direct relationship between the abolition of appointment system and the reform of DCs. In particular, Mr Frederick FUNG pointed out that the offering of seasonal delicacies was one of the channels to serve the public and he did not object it. He even claimed that he had also done so. In my opinion, under the democratically elected system, serving the public is the responsibility of all DC members and this is their means to serve the public. Thus, the pan-democrats should not blame their defeat in election on other candidates' offer of these seasonal delicacies. If they really want to be elected as DC members, they should serve go deep into the community and serve the people.
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As an elected DC member of Tin Shui Wai, I think that apart from Sham Shui Po, Tin Shui Wai is another community where our service is solid. We welcome any pan-democrats to come here and serve the community so that we can have fair competition. They should not blame their defeat in election on the fact that they have not treated constituents to seasonal delicacies. In fact, Mr Frederick FUNG has put it right. We should provide intensive service to the public in order to become the ultimate winners.
Lastly, President, I hope that on the benevolent advice of abolishing the appointment system, the Government will conduct a further and in-depth review of the DCs' development for the drawing of a good conclusion on the appointment system as a token of the true completion of this historic mission. Thank you.
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, Governor Chris PATTEN actually abolished the district board appointment system 20 years ago. Owing to TUNG Chee-hwa's conservative, pro-communist and pro-establishment position in addition to his eagerness to win over the rich and powerful, the appointment system was re-introduced. It was a retrogressive step in history. In the blink of an eye, 20 years have passed and the Government is going to abolish the appointment system for the second time. It is a perfect example of absurdity in history. Steered in full effort by the pro-government camp, the appointment system has sustained for almost two decades. At this stage, I believe it is an international laughing stock to talk about abolishing the DC appointment system. Having appointed seats or an appointment system for some advisory bodies is understandable, but it is feudalistic poison or residual colonial influence if we try to put it in any formal organization that claims to be representing the public. This kind of dictatorial system and feudal ideology must be abolished.
Actually, I have served as a DC member for a very long period of time, witnessing the development of DCs. I have been a DC member for 27 years. During those years, the DCs basically have not changed. A DC is essentially an organization with little power or responsibility. To a certain extent, it was a place where the rich and powerful divide their political spoils. Now, it has become a venue for dividing political spoils among political parties. The remuneration of a DC member has increased from $2,000 monthly during the early days to over $40,000 inclusive of accountable allowances now. A DC member was only remunerated at $2,000 monthly at that time and that was 12214 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 already "all inclusive". If accountable office allowances are included, DC member is currently paid at $48,000 or more than $40,000. I have no idea about the exact amount, but it is staggering. The monthly allowance of more than $20,000 equals the salary for a full-time job.
However, the DCs still do not have any power or responsibility. Many people have, after becoming full-time DC members, subsequently turned their offices into semi "travel agencies". They often organize tours and even earn rebates through co-operation with some travel agencies. I hereby urge the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) to conduct a thorough investigation into the activities of all DC member offices. There must be some people abusing their power for personal gains as I have been invited by many travel agencies to enter into co-operation with them. For local tours, there is a rebate of $5 per head. For Mainland tours, there is a rebate of $30 to $50 per head. As for who should be receiving those rebates, the practice differs among DC member offices. Why do they like organizing tours? Because those in charge will be directly benefited and gain rewards from them. Let us leave it to the ICAC …… I often raised my opinion when attending seminars held by the ICAC, but I have not seen any action taken by the ICAC.
There have been numerous cases of DC members, abusing their powers for personal gains. It is also not uncommon to see those DC members prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned. The close relationship and intimacy between the District Offices and DC members have made it easy for them to abuse their powers for personal gains. Take Mid-Autumn Festival evening gala as an example. With a sponsorship of $100,000 from the DC, a DC member will first of all distribute admission tickets and gifts in his own constituency in a very high profile. For the sake of purchasing gifts, this DC member will then chair the Mid-Autumn Festival evening gala organizing committee. He will then become responsible for assigning uses for the $100,000 allowance. He will manage to find some people to issue invoices and receipts. The question is: Are those vouchers bona fide? We have seen cases involving the Red Cross Society of China in which a $50,000 receipt was issued for a $10,000 spending. In fact, such cases are not uncommon in district-level activities. In some activities, organizers claimed that there were printed materials and public consultation. As a result, reimbursement was claimed for 10 banners when only one banner was ordered. Such cases are numerous. Abuse and embezzlement of public funds happen almost every day. The District Offices have mainly failed to perform LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12215 their supervisory role. I can, therefore, say that corruption in DCs is common and ubiquitous.
If the Government's additional allocation of $1.8 billion to DCs for carrying out local projects …… Of course, DC members may not be able to directly abuse their powers for personal gains in view of the gigantic size of the projects involved. However, it is an indisputable fact that the waste of resources has reached an alarming extent. It is because the money spent is not forked out from their pockets. The DC members want to gain prestige, but they are unwilling to work a bit more. What concerns them most is that they can pay lip service to the constituents of their respective constituencies. Hence, festive events most often cost a DC tens of thousands of dollars.
When I was a social worker for the Tsuen Wan squatter area, I helped the local residents to apply for the construction of a footpath because the area always turned muddy during rainfall. That is one of the reasons why I stood in the DC election at that time. As Members all know, squatter huts were all over the hillsides in Tsuen Wan area. The residents wanted to apply for $30,000 to buy cement and concrete in order to build road themselves, but the district board turned it down. In the same year, the district board set aside $300,000 to fund the Christmas lighting. In refusing the squatters' application for $30,000 to build a footpath while endorsing a ten-fold of that amount or $300,000 for Christmas lighting decoration, this sort of council is simply indifferent to problems in people's livelihood. So, I feel that a district board controlled by the rich and powerful ignored the hardships of the general public.
Coming back to the present DCs, they have actually accomplished their mission. In the course of decolonization, the DCs can be said to be a democratic component introduced during the British colonial administration. In a traditional British colony, the DCs were a key strategy adopted in the course of decolonization. After taking over Hong Kong, the Communist Party of China (CPC) has played remarkably well by stealing the concept of DCs and used DC elections as a means to strengthen its network influence, political manipulation and political bribery at the district level. The CPC has been doing it much more magnificently and successfully than the British Hong Kong Government. Perhaps it has something to do with the character of Chinese. They are not good at creation, but they are only good at privacy. After earning the nickname of global factory, their expertise has turned China into a kingdom of privacy. Similarly, they stole Karl MARX's communism and concepts of Lenin. They introduced those concepts into China, only to become more successful than the 12216 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
Soviet Union. In terms of manipulating the people, the Party's machinery is more successful in its operation than the role and machinery promulgated by Lenin. Certainly, the ideology of democracy will never be realized. Under the CPC's rule ― the Communist Party with Chinese characteristics ― the concept and structure of DCs and local administration carries a stronger CPC flavour. The effective control at the district level naturally makes the communist-manipulated elections even more successful.
To date, the development of DCs has achieved a certain function in Hong Kong under the rule of local communists in Hong Kong. The system will not be abolished because it is suitable for united front work and manipulation by the CPC. But if we base our viewpoint on the actual development of DCs, the system should be abolished completely because DCs have neither power nor accountability. The system has failed to nurture any political talents other than a bunch of political fools, mediocre politicians and greedy crackpots. Rather than nourishing political talents, it has become a breeding ground for these three kinds of "nincompoops". Among the six responsibilities of DC, four of them are related to consultation. The remaining two are the provision of cultural, creational and sports activities and the provision of minor environmental improvement projects. Therefore, according to the current responsibilities and mode of operation, the DC system can be considered as completely useless to local administration. It does not help improve local people's livelihood. To our dismay, it often constitutes a stumbling block.
Under the manipulation of DCs, many projects or plans that are in line with the interests of Hong Kong or the residents cannot be implemented possibly because they affect the personal interests of individual DC members or political parties. I can remember clearly that when Yuen Long DC formulated its priority projects for Yuen Long District, beautification of the park adjacent to Maywood Court of Kingswood Villas became one of the top priority projects. An urgently needed library in Tin Shui Wai was placed at the lower part of the list because the Chairman of the Culture and Sports Committee was a DC member from Maywood Court Constituency. This is exactly favoritism among influential officials. The DAB was in control of the DC, underscoring the fact that they have turned a blind eye to the plight of Tin Shui Wai residents. Mr CHAN Han-pan can check the records as this is a hard fact. Back then, I openly criticized the DAB for being indifferent in the DC to the plight and difficulties of Tin Shui Wai residents.
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From the perspective of district administration, many people have proposed to dismiss all the 18 DCs in order to form five to six local councils that have substantive policymaking powers. With the conferment of a planning authority, these five or six local councils can operate in the way of municipal governments, endowing them with the practical power to formulate both policy and planning. In this way, the elected members can improve the local people's livelihood, enhance the local economy and even train political talents. Many local councils all over the world possess solid powers. If the councillors can do well or successfully in local councils, they can run in the elections at the provincial or state level. If they can do even better, they can run in national elections. Most Presidents of the United States need to be State Governors.
This kind of ladder-like training and practice, together with actual local experience, are effective and useful to the Government in carrying out its measures. This is totally different from the current state of DCs where members raise ideas, talk about rubbish and then leave as if nothing has happened. When the Government wants consultation, DC members' help will be sought. DC members will be called upon in time of need and basically left alone when their service is not required. More often than not, the Government ignores the proposals made by DC members. Judging from the current situation, DCs can be described to a certain extent as a hotbed of political sins. Whether for the overall long-term development of Hong Kong, or for the most significant public interests, or for the improvement of people's livelihood, DCs can be regarded as useless. Undeniably, DCs have played an important function and role in terms of being a useful mechanism for the CPC in united front work.
Hence, under the current situation, I consider that it is necessary to dissolve all existing DCs and regroup them into five to six local administrative councils possessing substantive powers. We can, therefore, enhance people's livelihood as well as economy via elected representatives on the one hand while training political talents on the other. The training of political talents includes enhancing the experience of officials in district administration and enabling them to bring their strengths into full play. Besides, elected representatives can demonstrate their capabilities through local administrative councils with substantive powers. They may also bring their talents into full play via participation in the affairs of these councils. Under the current situation, DCs are devoid of power and responsibility. What DC members can do is to continue to be political con men, cheating the constituents and wasting public monies.
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MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, after listening to the remarks made by Mr Albert CHAN, I just cannot think of any words to describe him. This is because after losing the election, he said that he wanted to dissolve the DCs and that DCs were good for nothing. Now I can think of a word to describe him: shameless. Constituents have discerning eyes and they know who really do practical work and who do not. That he lost in the election last time because he had been talking about political issues every day in the district but caring nothing about issues of people's life. The result was that electors did not vote for him. Now he is saying that DCs are good for nothing. This is why I say he is shameless.
With respect to the remarks made by Dr KWOK Ka-ki of the Civic Party earlier, I would think that they are utterly self contradictory. This is because he has been a DC member for many terms. But now as he looks back, he says that DC members only serve some 10 000 persons of the district concerned and DC members do not have much work to do. But can we say that things like cleaning the alleys, making phone calls for elderly persons, queuing up for medical consultation in an out-patient clinic, and so on, not to be regarded as work? Nothing is trivial when it comes to matters of people's livelihood. When people need help and if they have trust in DC members, they will seek help from them. Should these not be regarded as things that should be done? Even though we are Members of the Legislative Council, if an elderly lady asks us to make a phone call or queue up for medical consultation in an out-patient clinic, or suppose someone says to me that the alley in the place where he lives is very dirty, I would think that Members of the Legislative Council should attend to such matters. It is because matters related to hygiene, transport and the environment are problems faced by citizens. Why should these problems not be tackled? For tasks which DC members do, why should Members of the Legislative Council not be required to do anything about them? It is like saying that things done by DC members are trivial. But the case is really one of sour grapes. He is not elected or he may think that he will lose if he runs in the election. So the result is he does not stand in the election.
He also talked about how the structure of DCs should be improved. He said that a law on political parties is needed. When a political party does not even dare to publicize a list of its members, it is not qualified to talk about a law on political parties.
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The fact that the DAB can garner the support of the people in the districts and win in elections across the territory and in the DCs is because we have watered the communities with the sweat of our labour. And we have touched the hearts of every member of the public with our sincerity. In my case, I have been a volunteer in the district ever since I graduated. And after a period of time, the constituents asked me to stand for the election and said that they would lend me their support because they thought that I could do something for them and so they would vote for me. Then I became a DC member for three terms. All along we have been following this principle of doing concrete work for the community. Is this goal not correct? I do not think that talents cannot be groomed under the framework of a DC. This is because if a person has got talents, he or she can be trained up under any kind of framework, including the DCs. I therefore think that DCs can do a lot of work. But some people want to sink the boat after they have ridden on it or tear down a bridge after they have walked on it. Such people are the likes of Mr Albert CHAN and Dr KWOK Ka-ki.
What Mr WU Chi-wai said earlier is even more ridiculous. He said that the resources at the disposal of DC members are really too few and so resources should be increased. But when the current-term DCs wanted a funding of $100 million to be put into each respective community, they used filibustering to oppose it. The result is chaos in the Council. Do DCs have to filibuster here before they can do anything? I do not believe it. I think helping the people solve their problems and difficulties is the solid task of every member.
I would consider the DCs as a kind of platform on which people with different talents can give full play to their strengths and they can contribute to society with their experience and track record. I would like to pay homage and extend thanks to each appointed DC member of every term. I would like to mention Mr KWONG Loi-hing in particular. I have great respect for him. He is a lawyer. He was an appointed DC member from 1999 to 2004. He made use of his spare time to serve the community together with his children. He used his expertise to serve the people. He approached problems with an objective frame of mind and he was fair in everything he did. He was not concerned about getting any reward. As a lawyer, he would give us a detailed answer to any problem in law that we had. Whenever the DC faced any legal problems, he would give us an explanation in the most objective manner. I would think that his selfless and generous attitude was something we all should learn from him. 12220 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
He was different from other lawyers in having this spirit. Unfortunately, Mr KWONG passed away two years ago and I will never forget his deeds.
The march of history is relentless and after the appointment system has fulfilled its mission in history, the Government wants to undertake a reform of the DCs and revamp the framework of district administration. Regardless of what kind of reform is to be carried out, we must not say that DCs are only a forum for empty talk or that it is detached from people's life. We must not adopt a condescending attitude and look down upon the DCs, saying that they do not do anything for the community or, as Dr KWOK Ka-ki said, that a DC member only serve some 10 000 people. Well, some 10 000 people are citizens all the same and even if the number is not some 10 000, but just a dozen or so, I would still think that they are very important. Why would a Member of this Council returned by direct election think that a DC member will only serve some 10 000 people and so DC members are worthless? It is really very strange. I hope that I can debate with him on other occasions.
President, the question today is the abolition of this appointment system. In my opinion, if there are more people like Mr KWONG who can do practical work for the community, it would be a great blessing to both society and the people. I therefore support the proposal that the appointment system be abolished because we have to go forward. I also hope that in the course of carrying out this reform, the Government can bear in mind that the DCs should be developed into a framework that can really help citizens solve their problems.
I so submit.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If not, I now call upon the Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs to speak in reply. After the Secretary has spoken, this debate will come to a close.
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SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, in February the SAR Government introduced the District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013 to the Legislative Council, the purpose of which is to amend the District Councils Ordinance (Cap. 547) and the relevant laws in order to abolish the District Council (DC) appointment system with effect from 1 January 2016.
In the fourth-term DC the SAR Government reduced the number of appointed DC members to 68. A public consultation exercise was conducted from February to April 2012 and the public opinions collected showed support for abolition of all the appointed seats in the following term of the DC at one go. So the SAR Government decided that with effect from the next term of the DC, that is, 1 January 2016, to abolish all appointed seats in the DCs and introduced a relevant Bill to the Legislative Council in February this year.
I would like to thank the Bills Committee chaired by Mr IP Kwok-him for their efforts. As a result, the deliberations on the Bill can be completed smoothly and the Secondary Reading of Bill resumed today. Many Members have spoken today and given many constructive views on issues like the electoral system and functions of DCs. On behalf of the SAR Government, I will bring these views back for detailed and serious consideration.
I noticed that Members who have spoken today may have different viewpoints on the overall functions of DCs and the electoral system, but I can hear a common point and that is, Members all hope that members of the public in the respective districts can be better served through the DCs and their members. I would like to supplement a little bit on the speeches made by Members and the report of the Bills Committee. Although these arguments and views may not bear direct relevance to the object of the Bill today, that is, abolishing the appointed seats, I would like to respond briefly to a number of issues.
First, there are worries in the Bills Committee that DCs with a smaller number of seats would find it difficult to operate effectively after the abolition of appointed seats. With respect to this, we have taken into account the relevant views in our review recently of the number of elected seats in the fifth-term DC. Therefore, we submitted the policy proposals two days ago to the Legislative Council via the Panel on Constitutional Affairs. We hope that before the current-term Council goes into prorogation, we can submit a formal motion on the number of elected DC seats to the Council for its consideration.
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In addition, there is a view that consideration should be given to preserving or abolishing the system whereby the current 27 Chairmen of Rural Committees in the New Territories shall be ex officio DC members during their term of office. Many Members have spoken on this issue earlier. As the SAR Government has explained to the Bills Committee, the system of ex officio members is not an issue to be dealt with in the context of this Bill. In fact, the views collected during the public consultation last year show that there is a divergence of public opinions on this issue. We will keep a close watch on views in society on this issue.
As for other issues, I noticed that quite a number of Members have mentioned the duties and functions of DCs. In this regard, I can emphasize on behalf of the SAR Government that the Chief Executive in his Policy Agenda has presented a very detailed description on how to enhance district administration and the functions of DCs. Last week, when I met with the Chairmen and Vice-chairmen of the 18 DCs, I discussed work in these aspects with them. I am sure in the future, the Chief Executive, the Home Affairs Bureau and the Government as a whole will all attach great importance to DC matters and follow them up seriously.
Some Members have mentioned problems related to the demarcation of the 18 administrative districts. In the meeting of the Panel on Constitutional Affairs the day before yesterday, I pointed out that we would continue to listen to views from the public on matters related to demarcation of Island East and Wan Chai, or Wong Tai Sin and Kowloon City. We will consider whether these problems should be handled together with the number of seats for elected DC members, or another consultation exercise should be conducted. We will give a further account on this on another occasion.
A number of Members have talked about the issue of demarcation of some DC constituencies, that is, the demarcation of the some 400 small constituencies. After finalizing the number of seats in the greater constituencies, we will defer to the independent Electoral Commission to conduct consultation and make recommendations pursuant to the relevant laws. The relevant work is expected to commence in January 2014.
Some Members have mentioned the issue of the electoral system, such as "single seat, single vote", proportional representation, or whether it is too many or LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12223 too few when each constituency represents 17 000 constituents. Members have put forward different views on these subjects, but I will not discuss them in detail now. In this respect, as I said the day before in the meeting of the Panel on Constitutional Affairs, irrespective of the "single seat, single vote" system or the population quota of 17 000 constituents, these were already set up and recognized before the reunification and they are proven. We have to be very careful in dealing with views demanding fundamental change.
Dr Helena WONG has mentioned earlier the problem of "vote rigging". Although this is not related to appointed DC members, I think I can give a brief reply to that. After the emergence of the "vote rigging" problem more than a year ago, the Administration and the Electoral Commission have adopted a number of measures. I believe now the accuracy of the voter register has increased greatly. In fact, after the implementation of the measures last year, about 210 000 voters have been struck off from the register because they have not confirmed their address within a reasonable period of time. Both the ICAC and the police handle "vote rigging" complaints received very seriously in accordance with law. As Dr WONG has mentioned, the Court has handed down judgments on certain cases. We appeal to citizens of Hong Kong to register as voters and update their residential address. If they want to update their residential address, they must do so on or before 29 June to enable the formal voter register for next year to be updated. I would like to call upon members of the public to update their addresses upon home removal.
Lastly, I wish to respond to the view also raised by Dr Helena WONG. She hopes that the proportion of women Legislative Council Members or DC members can be raised. Her idea is consistent with our policy direction. In fact, we hope to increase the proportion of women members appointed to many advisory bodies. We wish to see more women participate in politics and policy discussions through publicity and encouragement. However, if we were to prescribe some quota as Dr WONG has mentioned, I am afraid we cannot proceed with that too rashly. This is because I think that in such matters of affirmative action, a certain degree of controversy is involved. In fact, I think there may be some conflict with equal rights in standing for elections and the right to vote advocated by Dr WONG and her political party all along. This applies especially to the equal right to stand for elections. However, I am sure there will be occasions in future for such discussion with her.
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President, we believe the Bill today has responded to the public view that supports full abolition of appointed DC seats. We are sure that after the passage of the Bill, a step will be taken forward in the democratization of the constitutional system in Hong Kong. I hope the Bill can get the support of the Legislative Council tonight and be passed.
Finally, like Mr CHAN Han-pan, I would like to make use of the opportunity tonight to thank all incumbent and former appointed DC members. They have made selfless and wholehearted efforts to serve and make contribution to society over the years.
With these remarks, President, I implore Members to support the passage of the Bill at this resumed Second Reading. Thank you, President.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013 be read the Second time. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr CHAN Chi-chuen rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Chi-chuen has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for five minutes.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Mr Albert HO, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr TAM Yiu-chung, Mr Abraham SHEK, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Vincent FANG, Dr Joseph LEE, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Mr WONG Ting-kwong, Ms Cyd HO, Ms Starry LEE, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr WONG Kwok-kin, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr Steven HO, Mr Frankie YICK, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Mr LEUNG Che-cheung, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr Christopher CHEUNG, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Dr Helena WONG, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Dr Elizabeth QUAT, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr POON Siu-ping, Mr TANG Ka-piu, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr Christopher CHUNG and Mr Paul TSE voted for the motion.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that there were 54 Members present and 53 were in favour of the motion. Since the question was agreed by a majority of the Members present, he therefore declared that the motion was passed.
CLERK (in Cantonese): District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013.
Council went into Committee.
Committee Stage
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Committee stage. Council is now in Committee.
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DISTRICT COUNCILS (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the following clauses stand part of the District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013.
CLERK (in Cantonese): Clauses 1 to 18.
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council will now resume.
Council then resumed.
Third Reading of Bills
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Third Reading.
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DISTRICT COUNCILS (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, the
District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013 has passed through Committee without amendment. I move that this Bill be read the Third time and do pass.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013 be read the Third time and do pass.
Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
CLERK (in Cantonese): District Councils (Amendment) Bill 2013.
12228 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
MOTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Motions. Proposed resolutions under the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance to approve the Pharmacy and Poisons (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulation 2013 and the Poisons List (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulation 2013.
Members who wish to speak on the motion will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon the Secretary for Food and Health to speak and move the motion.
(Originally scheduled to be dealt with at the last Council meeting)
PROPOSED RESOLUTION UNDER THE PHARMACY AND POISONS ORDINANCE
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I move that the motion under my name, as printed on the Agenda, be passed.
Currently, we regulate the sale and supply of pharmaceutical products through a registration and monitoring system set up in accordance with the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance. The Ordinance maintains a Poisons List under the Poisons List Regulations and several Schedules under the Pharmacy and Poisons Regulations. Pharmaceutical products put under different parts of the Poisons List and different Schedules are subject to different levels of control in regard to the conditions of sale and keeping of records.
For the protection of public health, some pharmaceutical products can only be sold in pharmacies under the supervision of registered pharmacists and in their presence. For certain pharmaceutical products, proper records of the particulars of the sale must be kept, including the date of sale, the name and address of the purchaser, the name and quantity of the medicine and the purpose for which it is required. The sale of some pharmaceutical products must be authorized by prescription from a registered medical practitioner, dentist or veterinary surgeon.
Arising from an application for registration of two pharmaceutical products, the Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong proposes to add the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12229 following two substances to Part I of the Poisons List and the First and Third Schedules to the Pharmacy and Poisons Regulations:
(a) Fampridine; its salts; and
(b) Vemurafenib; its salts.
Pharmaceutical products containing the above substances must then be sold in pharmacies under the supervision of registered pharmacists and in their presence, with the support of prescriptions.
For amendment regulations concerning the adding of two substances to Part I of the Poisons List and the First and Third Schedules to the Pharmacy and Poisons Regulations, we propose that they take immediate effect upon the first Friday available for gazettal after this meeting, which is this Friday, May 24, to allow early control and sale of the relevant medicine.
The two Amendment Regulations are made by the Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong, which is a statutory authority established under the Ordinance to regulate pharmaceutical products. The Board comprises members engaged in the pharmacy, medical and academic professions. The Board considers the proposed amendments necessary in view of the potency, toxicity and potential side-effects of the medicine concerned.
With these remarks, President, I hope Members could support the motion.
Thank you, President.
The Secretary for Food and Health moved the following motion:
"RESOLVED that the following Regulations, made by the Pharmacy and Poisons Board on 28 March 2013, be approved ―
(a) the Pharmacy and Poisons (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulation 2013; and
(b) the Poisons List (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulation 2013."
12230 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Secretary for Food and Health be passed.
Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Proposed resolution under the Loans Ordinance.
Members who wish to speak on the motion will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury to speak and move the motion.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION UNDER THE LOANS ORDINANCE
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I move the motion on the Agenda pursuant to the Loans Ordinance.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12231
This Resolution seeks to authorize the Government to borrow, under section 3 of the Loans Ordinance, a maximum amount of HK$200 billion or equivalent that may be outstanding by way of principal under the Government Bond Programme.
To further promote the sustainable development of the local bond market, the Financial Secretary proposed in the 2013-2014 Budget expanding the size of the Government Bond Programme from the current HK$100 billion to HK$200 billion so as to provide adequate room for the Programme to continue.
Pursuant to a resolution passed by this Council under section 3 of the Loans Ordinance on 8 July 2009, the prescribed maximum amount of borrowings under the Government Bond Programme is HK$100 billion or equivalent at present. The outstanding amount of bonds issued under the Programme is projected at HK$87 billion at end August 2013, leaving an issuance quota of HK$13 billion. Such a size is not sufficient for further issuance of Government Bonds from September 2013 onwards, not to mention expanding it to a scale eligible for inclusion in some widely tracked global bond benchmark indices.
The Government proposes that the maximum amount of borrowings under the Government Bond Programme be raised to HK$200 billion to continue to operate the Government Bond Programme in a sustainable manner to cater for the increasing demand of local and international investors for high quality bonds issued by the public sector. This will help promote the sustainable development of the local bond market as a financial intermediation channel to complement the banking sector and equity market, thereby strengthening the competitiveness of Hong Kong as an international financial centre and asset management centre.
President, the Government Bond Programme has been instrumental to the development of the local bond market since its launch in July 2009. We have briefed the Financial Affairs Panel of this Council on 8 April and received its support.
I invite Members to pass this Resolution. Thank you.
12232 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
The Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury moved the following motion:
"RESOLVED that ―
(a) the Government be authorized to borrow from any person from time to time for the purposes of the Bond Fund established by a resolution made and passed under section 29 of the Public Finance Ordinance (Cap. 2) such sums not exceeding in total $200 billion or equivalent, being the maximum amount of all borrowings made under this paragraph that may be outstanding by way of principal at any time;
(b) sums borrowed under paragraph (a) are to be credited to the Bond Fund; and
(c) this Resolution is to replace the Resolution made and passed by this Council on 8 July 2009 and published in the Gazette as Legal Notice No. 169 of 2009."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury be passed.
MR TANG KA-PIU (in Cantonese): President, I support this Resolution. However, I can see from the eyes of colleagues that they might be questioning as why a representative of the labour sector would like to discuss financial or accounting matters. Actually, I only wish to seize this opportunity to discuss Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF) issues.
The Government has not explained whether the amount of borrowings or the issuance quota is raised for the sake of generating more revenue for the coffers or for social development or development of the financial services sector. So, can the Government do one more thing? When this motion was proposed by the Government at the meeting of the Panel on Financial Affairs on 8 April, some colleagues, including me, already queried the extremely low issuance quota, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12233 being only a single-digit percentage, dedicated to institutional investors for mainly retirement funds. The rest of the quota, however, will be used for the issuance of iBond ― which is supposed to be a measure to benefit the people. We cannot take issue with but express approval regarding the issuance of bonds to institutional investors or in the form of iBond. Given that the maximum amount of borrowings is going to be raised by $100 billion, can the Government do something to address the long-standing vexation of the wage earners in Hong Kong?
When a study report was published by the Mandatory Provident Fund Schemes Authority (MPFA) in November last year, its Chairman, Anna WU, presented a proposal in a media briefing session ― the proposal was not raised by the Government ― indicating her hope that a public trustee can be introduced. Although the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) was on everyone's mind, it firmly rejected the idea, saying it did not wish to perform so many administrative tasks. In fact, Hong Kong people, particularly most of the wage earners and grassroots, do not understand what are meant by "trustees", "sponsors" and "investment managers", and they only wish to look for some reliable investment products. And they learn from media reports that the rate of return of the HKMA appears to be not bad. According to the annual report compiled by the HKMA, its average rate of return since 1994 has remained at 5.6%. The budget has even projected the average rate of return to be yielded by its funds placed with the HKMA to reach 5%. In fact, the only wish of wage earners is to ensure a reasonable and stable rate of return for their MPF savings rather than switching their MPF schemes.
The MPF System is mandatory in nature. Since there is no contribution from the Government, the MPF is absolutely a social retirement policy mandating wage earners or employers to make contributions. Such being the case, should the Government not adopt a new mindset to deal with this matter? As I said just now, many wage earners in Hong Kong and the MPFA agree that a public trustee should be put in place to rectify the existing loopholes of the MPF. What loopholes am I referring to? I wonder what I have invested ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TANG, having spoken for such a long time, what does your speech have to do with the question?
12234 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
MR TANG KA-PIU (in Cantonese): Fine, let me put forward my proposal.
Regarding the proposed issuance of additional bonds worth $100 billion, the Government has not mentioned whether the bonds will be dedicated to any new purposes, such as allowing the existing 19 MPF trustees to underwrite the additional bonds as a choice for wage earners in Hong Kong ― as you said just now ― to enable the existing bond market, especially the one in the public sector, to better achieve its social functions and purposes.
The performance of the bond fund in the budget has actually been quite good. After interest and expenditure deductions, the revenue from these bonds has brought an additional revenue of $6.6 billion to the coffers over the past four years.
President, since the Resolution has right at the beginning pointed out that the issuance of more bonds is aimed at achieving social objectives rather than generating more revenue to the coffers, can the authorities respond to some of the demands of wage earners for reform of the MPF System by putting aside $10 billion or $20 billion out of the additional $100 billion allocated for the issuance of bonds and injecting it into the MPF market on a trial basis? Since 60% of the MPF contributions are invested in equity, the MPF market is now extremely unhealthy. It appears that it cannot offer any retirement protection at all.
While some investment academics have criticize the iBond now on offer for not giving the best value, people who have knowledge in investment think that they will be tied up by iBond for three or five years, during which their capital cannot be used for other purposes. In addition, people who know how to make investments will naturally opt for high-gain investment products by, for instance, opening Renminbi accounts, not to mention that iBond is not the best investment tool. The assumption is: For people who know how to make investments, iBond is not the best investment tool. However, since the majority of wage earners do not even have securities accounts, can the authorities consider including the programme of issuing an additional $100 billion bonds as part of the MPF schemes as a choice for wage earners who would like to attempt more bond investment options. At present, the maximum tenure for iBond is three or five years. I wonder if the authorities can attempt a maximum period of 20 or 30 years and set the fixed rate at 4% or 5%, so as to offer one more option to wage LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12235 earners. I believe most of them do not know how to choose from the MPF schemes, especially when "MPF semi-portability" has now been introduced.
I believe Secretary Prof K C CHAN understands the cause of the default fund problem. If the relevant persons have not indicated their preferences, their trustee(s) will opt for the highest risk products for them. Given that the Government is considering amending legislation to invest default fund in products with relatively low volatility and risks as well as stable returns, it might as well invest default fund in bonds issued by the public sector. Can it do so? In my opinion, a new mindset should be adopted in considering these issues.
President, although I have seized this opportunity to make these comments, I hope that the Secretary for Financial Services and Treasury, who is responsible for dealing with MPF and its reform, can respond to the voices in the community. It is the hope of many people that the MPFA can be made one of the trustees. It does not matter even if the MPFA cannot do so. Perhaps the HKMA can take charge of some of the investment funds to boost the confidence of Hong Kong people.
With these remarks, President, I hope that the relevant authorities can give a response. Thank you.
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): President, in 2009, the Government formulated a policy and decided to issue the iBond. I believe the Government still remembers that the proponent at that time was the Democratic Party. The issuance of the $100 billion iBond has now proved to be popular. We supported this policy at that time because we believed our goals were consistent with those of the Government ― first, we hoped the issuance of iBond could promote the development of the bond market, that is, deepen the market; and second, it could provide small investors with an investment channel offering a rate of return which would be close to, or at least not lower than, the inflation rate. However, Members who care to look up the records will find that the Democratic Party voted against the Bond Fund set up at that time for the issuance of iBond. Therefore, we cannot possibly support this Resolution today.
First of all, I will explain why we voted against the Resolution at that time. Despite our support for the policy objective of issuing iBond and the 12236 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 establishment of the Bond Fund, we considered the rules prescribed by the Government for the Fund extremely sloppy. The objective of the Government is in line with ours. As mentioned repeatedly by the Government, its objective is to promote the further development of the bond market and strengthen the status of Hong Kong as an asset management centre and provide more options to investors. Nevertheless, there is one rule ― which is identical with the existing provision ― the Fund will be used for bond redemption and meeting administrative expenses. However, the rule concerns the power required for operating the Fund rather than the object of the Fund. Since it is not the object, I do not think the Government should put it this way. Instead, the policy objective should be stated clearly in the rule.
The second point I wish to raise concerns the making of investments. The Government has repeatedly indicated that the Bond Fund will be invested together with the Exchange Fund to ensure the same degree of risk of investment as a result of prudent management and diversification. Nevertheless, the Government is fully reluctant to clearly state in the rule the restrictions on the power of investment.
The third point I wish to raise concerns our call for the setting up of an advisory committee to oversee the operation of the Bond Fund, though the Government insists that there is no need to do so because a committee set up by the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau will be in charge of this task. We are greatly dissatisfied because the Government's justifications for its refusal to prescribe the rules clearly are totally untenable. Hence, with great reluctance, we cannot support the Resolution because, according to the wordings of the Government, the $100 billion Bond Fund might become a mini vault of the Government in the future. In addition to the $1,000 billion or so Exchange Fund reserves, which the Exchange Fund Advisory Committee can decide how to invest, an additional $100 billion is now made available to the Financial Secretary and the Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau for their decision on investment. This time around, the sum has even been increased from $100 billion to $200 billion. As a result, a mini vault will suddenly come into being. We do not think the Fund should be administered in this manner.
I am very disappointed that, despite years of operation and the popularity of the Bond Fund, we have absolutely no knowledge or guarantee of its way of investment and whether the existing investment strategy will continue to be used in the future. Given that it is not a small sum, I do not think we as a responsible LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12237
Council should support the Government in continuing to adopt this modus operandi.
Nevertheless, it is a great pity that I have not proposed any amendment since I have not joined the committee scrutinizing the relevant Resolution. Such being the case, I do not wish to vote against it without proposing any amendment. Hence, we have decided to abstain today to express our disappointment with the Government's reluctance to consider perfecting the provisions of the Bond Fund and making them more specific. Therefore, I would like to state once again that the Democratic Party will abstain. I will not request any decision because it is now a moment of high risks, and I hope the motion debate can continue tomorrow. Hence, I hope to put it on record that the Democratic Party is abstaining.
I so submit.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If not, I now call upon the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury to reply. This debate will come to a close after the Secretary has replied.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, thanks to the two Members for speaking on the motion. I would like to respond briefly to the issues raised by Mr Albert HO concerning the investment of the Government's Bond Fund. According to the provisions in the law, the Bond Fund must be invested "in the manner the Financial Secretary considers appropriate for the prudent management of the Fund". In fact, the purpose of the Bond Fund, which is now placed in the Exchange Fund for investment purposes, is to meet the needs for issuance and redemption of bonds. It is invested under the Exchange Fund for stable investment returns to ensure its smooth operation. I would like to cite some figures for Members' reference. Since the launch of the Government Bond Programme, the "fixed rate" adopted for the Bond Fund in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013 was 6.8%, 6.3%, 6.0%, 12238 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
5.6% and 5.0% respectively. These figures illustrate clearly what the returns of investment are all about.
Broadly speaking, the Bond Programme is considered effective. Since the launch of the Government Bond Programme, there has been a steady increase in the number of debt instruments in Hong Kong dollars issued in the private sector. Between 2008 (prior to the launch of the Government Bond Programme) and 2012, the total annual issuance of Hong Kong-dollar bonds not issued by the public sector has increased at a year-on-year growth rate of 12.8%, from approximately HK$138 billion to nearly HK$243 billion. It is helpful to the development of the local bond market into a financial intermediation channel to complement the banking sector and equity market.
As regards the circumstances surrounding the Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF) as mentioned by Mr TANG Ka-piu, I must point out that the MPF is not within the scope of discussion on this motion proposed by the Government. Even the Member confessed that he was making use of the subject under discussion to voice his views out of his concern about the MPF. Certainly, the Government Bond Programme cannot do anything for the MPF because its objective is to develop the local bond market. However, I would like to point out that MPF funds can invest in bonds direct, or in approved MPF funds, whereas these funds may in turn invest in bonds. According to the Hong Kong Monetary Authority's understanding from the Primary Dealers, about 1.3% of investors of institutional government bonds at tenders are retirement funds. In fact, there are considerable channels through which MPF members can invest in bond products, including government bonds.
I would like to call on Honourable Members to support this motion proposed under section 3 of the Loans Ordinance to enable us to continue to develop Hong Kong's bond market. Thank you.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12239
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Proposed resolution under the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance to approve the Pharmacy and Poisons (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulation 2013 and the Poisons List (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulation 2013.
Members who wish to speak on the motion will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon the Secretary for Food and Health to speak and move the motion.
(Scheduled to be dealt with at this Council meeting)
PROPOSED RESOLUTION UNDER THE PHARMACY AND POISONS ORDINANCE
SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Cantonese): President, I move that the motion under my name, as printed on the Agenda, be passed.
Currently, we regulate the sale and supply of pharmaceutical products through a registration and monitoring system set up in accordance with the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance (the Ordinance). The Ordinance maintains several Schedules under the Pharmacy and Poisons Regulations and a Poisons List under the Poisons List Regulations. Pharmaceutical products put under different Schedules and different parts of the Poisons List are subject to different levels of control in regard to the conditions of sale and keeping of records.
For the protection of public health, some pharmaceutical products can only be sold in pharmacies under the supervision of registered pharmacists and in their presence. For certain pharmaceutical products, proper records of the particulars 12240 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 of the sale must be kept, including the date of sale, the name and address of the purchaser, the name and quantity of the medicine and the purpose for which it is required. The sale of some pharmaceutical products must be authorized by prescription from a registered medical practitioner, dentist or veterinary surgeon.
Arising from an application for registration of three pharmaceutical products, the Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong proposes to add the following three substances to the First and Third Schedules to the Pharmacy and Poisons Regulations and Part I of the Poisons List:
(a) Aflibercept;
(b) Crizotinib; its salts; and
(c) Ruxolitinib; its salts.
Pharmaceutical products containing the above substances must then be sold in pharmacies under the supervision of registered pharmacists and in their presence, with the support of prescriptions.
For amendment regulations concerning the adding of three substances to the First and Third Schedules to the Pharmacy and Poisons Regulations and Part I of the Poisons List, we propose that they take immediate effect upon the first Friday available for gazettal after this meeting, which is this Friday, 24 May, to allow early control and sale of the relevant medicine.
The two Amendment Regulations are made by the Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong, which is a statutory authority established under the Ordinance to regulate pharmaceutical products. The Board comprises members engaged in the pharmacy, medical and academic professions. The Board considers the proposed amendments necessary in view of the potency, toxicity and potential side-effects of the medicine concerned.
With these remarks, President, I hope that Members will support the motion.
Thank you, President.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12241
The Secretary for Food and Health moved the following motion:
"RESOLVED that the following Regulations, made by the Pharmacy and Poisons Board on 22 April 2013, be approved ―
(a) the Pharmacy and Poisons (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulation 2013; and
(b) the Poisons List (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulation 2013."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Secretary for Food and Health be passed.
Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
MEMBERS' BILLS
First Reading of Members' Bills
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' Bills: First Reading.
12242 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013
(Originally scheduled to be dealt with at the last Council meeting)
PROFESSIONAL ACCOUNTANTS (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
CLERK (in Cantonese): Professional Accountants (Amendment) Bill 2013.
Bill read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Rule 53(3) of the Rules of Procedure.
Second Reading of Members' Bills
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): As the Professional Accountants (Amendment) Bill 2013 introduced by Mr Kenneth LEUNG relates to government policies, in accordance with Rule 54(1) of the Rules of Procedure, I shall call for the signification of the written consent of the Chief Executive by a designated public officer before the Council enters upon consideration of the Second Reading of the Bill.
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I confirm that the Chief Executive has given his written consent for the Professional Accountants (Amendment) Bill 2013 to be introduced into the Legislative Council.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' Bill: Second Reading.
Mr Kenneth LEUNG, you may now move the Second Reading of the Bill introduced by you.
PROFESSIONAL ACCOUNTANTS (AMENDMENT) BILL 2013
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that the Professional Accountants (Amendment) Bill 2013 be read the Second time.
The Bill was gazetted on 26 April 2013. The purpose of the Bill is to amend certain provisions in the Professional Accountants Ordinance (PAO) and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 12243 in the Professional Accountants By-Laws. The amendments proposed in the Bill mainly relate to two areas.
First, it permits a sole certified public accountant (CPA) (practising) to incorporate a company with only one director/shareholder and to register the company as a corporate practice qualified to provide auditing services.
Under the PAO, an accounting firm may register as a company with limited liability and register with the Hong Kong Institute of Certified Public Accountants (HKICPA) as a corporate practice to provide auditing services. All the directors and shareholders of a corporate practice shall be CPAs and there must be a CPA (practising).
The Companies Ordinance (CO) before 2003 provided that a company must have at least two directors/shareholders in order to opt for incorporation. And as corporate practices are limited companies, they have to comply with this requirement.
In order to permit accountancy practices with only one CPA to be registered as a body corporate and comply with the requirements of the CO before 2003, the PAO allows the Council of the HKICPA to permit a person who is not a CPA or CPA (practising) to become a director or nominee shareholder.
Since the CO was amended in 2003 to allow a company to be incorporated with a single director/shareholder, therefore the requirement in the PAO on sole practitioner firms appointing persons who are not CPAs as director/shareholder has become obsolete and is no longer necessary.
The second major proposal is to prohibit any company from using the description of "certified public accountant", the initials "CPA" or the characters "會計師" in its name or use together with its name. It remains, of course, that the above prohibition does not apply to corporate practices registered with the HKICPA.
Currently there are a number of specific descriptions related to professionals qualified to provide auditing services. These include "certified public accountant (practising) and "public accountant". The initials in English are "CPA (practising)" and "CPA", or in Chinese characters: "執業會計師", "註 冊核數師","核數師" or "審計師". Under the existing PAO, it is a criminal 12244 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 offence for a non-corporate practice company to use the above descriptions, initials or characters.
However, the existing PAO does not prohibit a company from using the description "certified public accountant", the initials "CPA" or the characters "會 計 師". And there are companies which use the above descriptions, initials or characters in their names, resulting in the public being misled into believing that these companies are practice units.
In order to prevent members of the public from being misled by persons not qualified to provide auditing services, the Bill seeks to amend section 42(1)(ha) of the PAO to prohibit a company which is not a corporate practice from using the description "certified public accountant", the initials "CPA" or the characters "會計師" in their names.
President, as a Member of this Council from the accountancy functional constituency, I hereby table this Bill on behalf of the HKICPA and I hope Members can lend it their support.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
PRESIDENT(in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Professional Accountants (Amendment) Bill 2013 be read the Second time.
In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, this debate will now adjourn and the Bill referred to the House Committee.
SUSPENSION OF MEETING
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now suspend the meeting until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
Suspended accordingly at twelve minutes to Ten o'clock.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 22 May 2013 A1
Appendix I
WRITTEN ANSWER
Written answer by the Secretary for Transport and Housing to Dr Joseph LEE's supplementary question to Question 1
As regards older public rental housing (PRH) estates which are more prone to tenancy abuse, tenants living in older PRH estates generally have longer residence period, during which time their economic and family conditions may have improved significantly. The older estates are thus more prone to tenancy abuse. In the past five years, two thirds of the flats recovered by the Housing Authority due to tenancy abuse came from estates completed in or before 1999. Hence, 12 older estates were selected for intensified patrols and inspection of occupancy position as a trial scheme to identify suspected cases for further investigation on tenancy abuse in March 2013.