[Wednesday, I11th April, 1979]16 467

with the Standing Orders of the Legislative ICniotathwr Arnwmbtg Assembly. Wednesday, the 11Ith April, 1979 The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be brought to the Table of the House. The SPEAKER (Mr Thompson) took the See petition No. 47. Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. PORNOGRAPHY RAILWAYS: FREMANTLE-PERTH Exploitation of Children: Pet' ion Closure: Petition MR OLD (IKatanning-M' ister for Agriculture) [4,34 p.m.): I present a petition MR RUSHTON (Dale-Minister for praying for greater protection of children from Transport) [4.31 p.m.]: I present a petition from exploitation through pornography. The petition 99 840 people praying that the Government give bears 44 signatures. I certify that it conforms with further consideration to its decision to close the the Standing Orders of the Legislative Assembly. Perth-Fremantle railway. The petition conforms with the Standing Orders of the Legislative The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be Assembly, and I have certified accordingly. brought to the Table of the House. The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be See petition No. 48. brought to the Table of the House. See petition No. 45. LICENSED CAR SALESMEN Compulsory Unionism: Petition EDUCATION: SCHOOL YEAR MR HJERZFELD (Mundaring) [4.35 p.m.]: I Alteration: Petition desire to present a petition bearing 466 signatures of licensed motor salesmen in the State of MR PEARCE (Gosnells) [4.32 p.m.]: I have a Western Australia which reads as follows- petition that is signed by 127 citizens of Western Australia who represent staff members of the The H-onourable the Speaker and following schools: Gosnells Primary School, Members of the Legislative Assembly of the Sea forth Primary School, Neerigen Brook Parliament Of Western Australia in Primary School, Yale Primary School, Langford Parliament assembled. Primary School, Wirrabirra Primary School, and We, the undersigned, express total Brookman Primary School. The wording of the opposition to the concept of compulsory petition ought to be well known to members of the unionism and object in the strongest terms to Chamber by now. 1 have certified and signed the provisions of Clause 17 of the Licensed thereto that it conforms with the Standing Orders Car Salesmens' Award 1979, requiring of the Assembly. licensed members of the industry to join the Car Salesmens' Association or apply for The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be exemption under Section 61 B of the brought to the Table of the House. Industrial Arbitration Act. See petition No. 46. Your petitioners therefore humbly pray that you will give this matter earnest EDUCATION: SCHOOL YEAR consideration and your petitioners, as in duty Alteration: Petition bound, will ever pray. MR NANOVICH (Whitford) [4.33 p.m.i]: I I have certified that it conforms with the have a petition addressed to the Speaker and Standing Orders of the Legislative Assembly. members of the Legislative Assembly. It is on the The SPEAKER: r direct that the petition be same basis as the petition read by the member for brought to the Table of the House. Cosnells. I have examined the petition. It is See petition No. 49. signed by 136 teachers teaching at schools within my electorate. The schools are the Bambara EDUCATION: SCHOOL YEAR Primary School, Allenswood Primary School, Greenwood High School, West Greenwood Alteration: Petition Primary School, Lymburner School, Padhury MR JAMIESON (Welshpool) f4.36 p.m.1: I Primary School, Sorrento Pre-School, and Craigie have a petition similar to those presented by the Primary School. I have certified that it conforms member for Gosnells and the member for 468 468[ASSEMBLY]

Whitford, It is from the teachers of the Kewdale "DIGEST OF THE PARLIAMENT Junior Primary School, Carlisle Primary School, OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA" Canning Kindergarten, Queens Park Primary Ta bling School, and Wilson Primary School. (t contains 69 signatures and it conforms with the Standing THE SPEAKER (Mr Thompson): I have for Orders of the Legislative Assembly. I have tabling the Digest of the Parliament of Western Australia for 1978. certified accordingly. The paper was tabled (see paper No. 12?) The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be brought to the Table of the House. QUESTIONS See petition No. 50. Questions were taken at this stage.

EDUCATION: SCHOOL YEAR SUPPLY BILL Alteration: Petition Introduction and First Reading DR DADOIJR (Subiaco) [4.37 p.m.]: I present Bill introduced, on motion by Sir Charles Court a petition in similar terms to those presented by (Treasurer), and read a first time. previous members concerning school teachers and the change in the school year. It bears 114 VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE signatures of residents of Western Australia. It IN SPEAKER conforms with the Standing Orders of the Standing Orders Suspension: Motion Legislative Assembly. I have -certified MR B. T. BURKE (Balcatta) [5.50 p.m.]: I accordingly. It comes from the following schools move, without notice- within my electorate: the Princess Margaret That so much of the Standing Orders be Hospital School, the Western Australian suspended as is necessary to enable me to Correspondence School at Subiaco, the move that thc Speaker does not have the Churchlands Senior High School, the Wembley confidence of the House. Technical College, the Wandarra Primary School, As I said previously, it is not without regret that I the West Leederville 'Primary School, the seek the suspension of Standing Orders to permit Teachers' Centre for Continuing Education, and the motion which I have foreshadowed, to be also the Isolated Students Matriculation Scheme. moved. I am sure members of the Opposition The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be would quite willingly agree to rethink the entire brought to the Table of the House. proposition upon your assurance, Mr Speaker, that you will reconsider the step which you have See petition No. SI. taken today. There is no doubt that prior to the ruling you EDUCATION: SCHOOL YEAR gave and the decision you made, Mr Speaker, you Alteration: Petition had placed upon the Opposition certain constraints in respect of behaviour at times when MR SODEMAN (Pilbara) [4.38 p.m.]: I have questions without notice were being taken. During seven similar petitions from teachers at schools in those times the behaviour or the Opposition has the Pilbara electorate. The signatories total 84, been such that it could not be described as and they are from the Roebourne Primary School, anything but in compliance with your request. Tomn Price Primary School, Karratha Primary The SPEAKER: Order! In the member for School, Onslow Primary School, Baler Primary Balcatta's opening remarks he asked me to School, Dampier Primary School, and the reconsider the situation. In the interests of trying Newman Senior High School. They are all in to maintain harmony in the House I will give the conformity with the Standing Orders of the member an assurance that I will reconsider the Legislative Assembly, and I have certified position and make a statement on this matter tomorrow, provided he is prepared to withdraw accordingly. the motion he has moved. The SPEAKER: I direct that those petitions be Mr B. T. BURKE: I am quite happy to brought to the Table of the House. withdraw the motion, Mr Speaker. See petition No. 52. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. [Wednesday, 11Ith April, 1979146 469 BILLS (6): INTRODIJCTION That section was inserted to deal with the AND FIRST READING difficulties in relation to knowledge of falsity. I . Bulk Handling Act Amendment Bill. Much of the problem of the section lies in its format as subsection (3) soeaks of "a statement in Bill introduced, on motion by Mr Old contravention of this section" when in fact it seeks (Minister for Agriculture), and to deal with the person who publishes the read a first time. statement and not the statement itself. 2. Land Tax Assessment Act Amendment The amendments to section 8, subsections (1), Bill. (3), and (4) seek to correct what is essentially a Bill introduced, on motion by Sir drafting difficulty. They provide for a person who Charles Court (Treasurer), and publishes a statement which is raise to have a read a first time. defence if he can establish that he had reasonable 3. Cattle Industry Compensation Act grounds to believe and did believe the statement Amendment Bill. to be true, or he did not know and there were no Bill introduced, on motion by Mr Old reasonable grounds on which a person might have (Minister for Agriculture), and suspected or by exercise of reasonable diligence read a first time. may have ascertained that the statement contravened the section. 4. Collie Coal (Western Collieries) Agreement Bill. Penalties at present under the Act are very low, being in the order of a maximum of $200 or six 5. Evaporites (Lake MacLeod) Agreement months' imprisonment or both for a first offence; Act Amendment Bill. $200 to $500 or 12 months' imprisonment or both Bills introduced, on motions by Mr for a second offence; $500 to $1000 or 12 Mensaros (Minister for Industrial months' imprisonment or both for a third and Development), and read a first subsequent offence. time. The graduated penalties will be substituted by 6. Stipendiary Magistrates Act one maximum penalty of $5 000. Amendment Bill. The limitations of section 8 have led to my Bill introduced, on motion by Mr O'Neil department referring matters to the Trade (Deputy Premier), and read a First Practices Commission for action. This is not a time. desirable situation since apart from the penalty TRADE DESCRIPTIONS AND which is much higher under the Trade Practices FALSE ADVERTISEMENTS ACT Act, local legislation should be adequate to deal AMENDMENT DILL with false advertisements published within the State. Second Reading The amendments outlined in the Bill now MR O'CONNOR (Mt. Lawley-Minister for before members will overcome the: existing Labour and Industry) [5.56 p.mn.]: I move- problems and upgrade the gravity of the offences, That the Bill be now read a second time. so that offences in this State are more in line with Mr Tonkin: About time, too! similar legislation in the Commonwealth and in other States, Mr O'CONNOR: Difficulty has been experienced in enforcing the provisions of the Act Mr Tonk in: Hear, hear! as it relates to false advertisements. The prime Mr O'CONNOR: I commend the Bill to the purpose of this Bill is to amend section 8 which House and am glad to hear I have support from presently requires the establishment that the the Opposition. publisher knowingly published a false and Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Tonkin. misleading statement. It was intended to establish a defence to this charge if he took reasonable WILDLIFE CONSERVATION ACT precautions against commnitting the offence, had AMENDMENT BILL ,reasonable. grounds to believe, and did believe the Second Rea ding statement to be true and had no reason to suspect otherwise. MR O'CONNOR (Mt. Lawley-Minister for Wildlife) [6.01 p.m.I: move- The section now, however, because of a drafting Fisheries and I format which is not entirely satisfactory, requires That the Bill be now read a second lime. a prosecution to establish the entire offence Members will recall that Act No. 86 of 1976 without calling upon the deeming provision which amended the Wildlife Conservation Act to better exists in section 8 subsection (3) as to knowledge. protect our wildflowers and other plants and to 470 470[ASSEMBLY) bring together the administration of flora ADDRESS-IN-REPLY: conservation and fauna conservation in the THIRD DAY Department of Fisheries and Wildlife. It also provided for the repeal of the Native Flora Motion Protection Act, 1935-1938. Debate resumed, from the 10th April, on the Closer examination of the amending Act has following motion by Mr Shalders- revealed the need for further amendments before That the following Address-in-Reply to it can be proclaimed. His Excellency's Speech be agreed to- Firstly, as a consequence of the Crown being May it please Your Excellency: We, bound in matters relating to flora it has been the Legislative Assembly of the Parliament of the State found necessary to provide for consultative of Western Australia in Parliament assembled, beg machinery between Ministers in charge of other to express loyalty to our Most Gracious Government agencies and the Minister in relation Sovereign, and to thank Your to the exercising of rights or duties by Excellency for the Speech you have been instrumentalities of the Crown or local pleased to address to Parliament. authorities. Similarly the Minister has been provided with powers of determination where MR HIERZFELD (Mundaring) [6.04 p.m.); Mr matters arise with respect to the exercising of Speaker- rights or duties conferred or imposed on a person The SPEAKER: I interrupt to advise the under any Act or agreement. House that the member for Mundaring has a Secondly, the defence for a person charged with slight cold and has asked permission for the sound taking protected fauna on Crown land without a reinforcement device to be used. This will give me licence has been expanded to include having taken an opportunity to try it out. Can the member for reasonable care. A similar defence has been Mundaring be given a microphone please? provided with respect to taking protected flora on Mr HERZFELD: Thank you for your private land. indulgence and assistance in this matter, Mr Speaker. It will make my task a little easier Thirdly, as the amending Act is presently tonight. worded the special penalty for the unauthorised Earlier it had been my intention, taking of rare flora can be imposed by the courts when speaking to the Address-in-Reply debate, to deal with on the holder of a licence to take protected flora matters of general interest within my electorate. on Crown land who takes rare flora without However, I have decided to take a different obtaining the further consent of the Minister. The course as a result of an article I read in this special penalty also can be imposed on a person morning's Press. It concerned certain action the who takes rare flora on private land without first TLC proposes to take against motorcar dealers obtaining the consent of the Minister. who do not employ unionists as salesmen. This is However, a person who does not have a licence a matter which has interested me for a considerable time because it has associated with it to take protected flora-that is, the majority of two important principles. the community-and takes rare flora on Crown land can be charged only with taking protected The first of these is the question of enforced flora and fined the lesser unionism, something about which we have heard a penalty attached to that little from the member for Morley recently-and offence. I will make reference to that shortly. Secondly, These amendments will clarify this situation. because in this particular case we have a typical Fourthly, to avoid the application of the example of the tactics and devices which are Interpretation Act whereby private persons may adopted by unscrupulous people-the sort of people to whom the member for Cottesine bring prosecutions against the Crown, a provision referred a few nights ago as gutless guttersnipes has been inserted that all proceedings in respect and other names and for which he was derided. I of offences shall be taken by the director. will provide documentary evidence to indicate the In addition, a new definition of "nature level to which these people will stoop to achieve reserve" has been included to cover such reserves their ends. created by Acts other than the Land Act. Of course I will be accused of union bashing because these are the semantics adopted by I commend the Bill to the House. members opposite when they have nothing to Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Barnett. contribute. I can assure them I have never in my [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979]47 471 life said anything or taken any action which could In this instance a mere 15 or 20 people were be described as union bashing and certainly I able to apply for and obtain registration and have no intention of doing so because I have subsequently, through the natural process of law, respect for the principle of unionism. Indeed, I see to apply for an award. It is what is contained in a great need for unionism in our community the award which has so incensed the licensed car provided the activities of unions are conducted in salesmen in this State and which has now been such a manner as to be fair and reasonable. compounded by the decision of the TLC to I will be dealing with matters which reveal the enforce sanctions against the dealer principals threats, bullying tactics, and the degree of who have clearly indicated they will not be coercion and blackmail which are being practised coerced and forced into employing unionists. by some organisations. I believe members should I am sorry the Leader of the Opposition is not be made aware of the situation and certainly the in the House at present, because I would like to public of Western Australia should be given the put a question to him and give him time to information because they deserve to know. What I interject so he can tell me quite clearly the views will say will indicate to the motor vehicle dealer of the Opposition on the proposed action of the principals that they have no need to fear the TLC. If he returns after the tea suspension, threats that have been made relating to the use of perhaps he will be prepared to give me an answer the might of the ACTU to force General Motors- because I want to know, as do the I 400-odd Holdens Sales Pty. Ltd. to intercede; for GMH to licensed car salesmen in Western Australia. force dealer principals to persuade their licensed The Press report indicates that the TLC also car salesmen to join a union which they have no endorsed the principle of the Licensed Car desire to join. The salesmen have indicated very Salesmen's Association organising the industry. I clearly on a number of occasions that this is an wonder what that means. It means of course that activity in which they do not want to be involved the TLC is giving the LCSA the authority to use and the petition I presented to the Speaker today whatever coercion and other tactics it might bears the evidence in the form of signatures of consider necessary, and I can envisage dangers in salesmen who in a very hurried manner were that respect. prepared to put their name to a petition. One thing is clear; the licensed car salesmen I turn now to the report which appeared on and the dealer principals will not bow to these page 5 of this morning's issue of The West pressures and I have a fair idea that members of Australian. It states that last night a meeting of the unions who intend to go along with the call of the TLC urged all affiliated unions not to buy the TLC, will find themselves riding push bikes. cars from dealers who employed non-unionists. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Watt): Order! We are told that the TLC has taken this action Before leaving the Chair I remind members of the because of a vicious anti-union campaign being film to be shown in the members' common room undertaken by some salesmen. Of course that is a at 6.45 p.m. by courtesy of Channel 9. It relates lot of rot. There has been no such vicious activity. to the I150th anniversary celebrations. There has been a very resounding statement by Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. the vast majority of licensed car salesmen in this Mr HERZFELD: Mr Acting Speaker (Mr State that they do not want a bar of unionism for Watt), before the tea suspension I was referring their industry. For the last 50 years* they have to action which has been proposed by the TLC successfully negotiated their own working against dealers who will not conform with their conditions. In fact they are very annoyed that wishes and have licensed car salesmen who work underhand tactics and weak provisions of the for them forced into union membership. I also Industrial Arbitration Act were used to the made brief reference to the tactics being adopted advantage of a mere handful of people to force by the TLC in order to force these car salesmen, the whole industry into unionism and into an who have no desire to be members of unions, into award which they do not want. the newly-formed Licensed Car Salesmen's I remind members that under the current Association. legislation only 15 people are required for a I will continue from that point and refer to society to apply for registration. There is nothing what I consider to have been a very courageous in the Act to prevent their registration because statement which was made recently by the there is no provision for the people member for Morley. when he came out and said concerned-that is, the affected employees-to be that in his belief it was against the interests of the heard before the commission. union movement to force people to join a union. I 472 472[ASSEMBLY] believe that in making that statement the member Rights, which says no-one should be compelled to for Morley acted in a very responsible manner. belong to an association. The fact of the matter is It was natural that his union bosses should the law of industrial awards is being used in a Come Out very strongly immediately afterwards very cunning way to force people to join and attack the member for Morley for making the associations and unions to which they do not want statement, but he is an intelligent man and I am to belong. sure he did not make the statement without If members opposite consider we should not having given a great deal of consideration to the subscribe to the article to which I have just matter. The result will be that, having upset his referred, I would like them to come out and say union bosses and the bosses of those who sit on so. If they do subscribe to it, let them speak up the benches on the other side of the House, the with courage and support the member for Morley, member for Morley will get it in the neck; no who had sufficient courage to come out and make doubt he will lose his seat on the front bench, and his views known. I would tip that is not what will in due course the same thing will happen to him happen. as happened to the Hon. Ron Thompson who also Mr Bateman: You might be in for a big shock, had the courage to stand up against the direction too. of his colleagues. Mr HERZFELD: His colleagues will desert Mr T. H. Jones: You have been misled. him as rats desert a sinking ship. They will bow Mr HERZFELD: I say the member for Morley and kowtow to their union masters. is an intelligent man. I am sure he spends a great Mr Bateman: You kowtow to your deal of time on research and that he has read, as I masters-that master over there. Look at you, have, the Mrest Of a Morgan gallup poll which was carried out late last year. They are very like sheep! interesting and should be of great interest to the Mr KERZFELD: Let us see why it is so people of Western Australia because they clearly important to the union movement and the ALP to indicate exactly what members of the public think force workers in this -country into union about the union movement at the present time. membership. The member for Morley spoke about a crisis in Mr Skidmore: Who does that? the union movement. I put it to the House that Mr IHERZFELD: I put it to the House it is there is a crisis, and it is a crisis of credibility purely in order that they can extract some money because of the way certain union leaders-those out of the workers for their own political ends-to militant left-wingers and communists-have maintain the bureaucracy the union movement forced their members into actions they do not has set up. Earlier this year, on the 31st January want and which they realise are to their own to be exact, we heard a bleat from the Secretary detriment and to the detriment of the Australian of the TLC that he was running short of society. membership and therefore the TLC was $7 000 The Morgan gallup poll published in down on its budget. For this reason the TLC had November, 1978, indicates that 73 per cent of the to take the action and sanctions which I described Australian people are totally opposed to earlier and which were described in the newspaper compulsory unionism. Even 63 three per cent of this morning, to force people into union the members of unions are totally opposed to the membership. compulsion aspects of industrial awards. If ever Mir Grill: You live in-a country where people there was an indictment of those militants and are forced to vote. What do you say about that? what they have done to the union movement, which used to have the greatest respect not only Mr HERZFELD: Members of the Opposition of the people of the nation but of people are very quick to interject but I have not heard throughout the world, it is the very fact that 63 any answers to the questions I have raised tonight. per cent of union members do not agree with the I will describe to the House the action which way they go about things. I therefore say the was taken to form the Licensed Car Salesmen's member for Morley was being realistic when he Association and the way the whole set-up was said it was time the union movement faced facts designed to raise money for the TLC and the and got rid of compu lsory membership. ALP. People should be allowed to join unions of their Mr Skidmore: That is absolute rubbish and own free will. People should be able to join unions piffle. Come-over and I will educate you in trade if they want to do so, in accordance with article union matters at the next TLC meeting. Be my 20 of the Universal Declaration of Human guest. [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979147 473

Mr HERZFELD: I might take the member for Mr HER ZFELD: The member for Swan ought Swan up on that invitation but I am sure when I to move around his part of town a little more. got to the door I would be locked out. O'Loughlin turned up and took on the job of It is very obvious that the unions need members secretary of this salesmen's association, never simply to provide them with funds and to enable having had anything to do with the sale of real them to force their members into taking industrial estate. This was checked out. action. Without full membership they cannot take Other little bits of skulduggery occurred. The the sort of industrial action which we have seen of trade union movement did not win that one, late. It is more than industrial action, it is because the real estate salesmen woke up to what industrial sabotage. That is the effect it has on the was happening and very quickly squashed the society we live in. whole deal. Mr Skidmore: Strike up the band! Then there was the effort made to force Mr HERZFELD: My main reason for raising supervisors of Cockburn Cement Limited into this issue tonight is my admiration for a group of joining a union. How was that attempted? By the people who are prepared to stand out against the union amending its constitution and rules so that coercion and blackmail designed to force them it could cover the particular supervisors who were into a union in which they do not have the salaried workers. The union movement did not slightest interest. They are not a small group of want these men outside the union, because if the people. They are the vast majority of licensed car union members went on strike the salaried men were prepared to look after the plant salesmen in this State. They are one group. and ensure that it was not damaged. That is another example. The same endeavour has been made in respect The main topic of my speech is that of the of other groups, and I believe a concerted effort licensed car salesmen and I will return to it. I has been made by the TLC and those on the spoke earlier of blackmail, and in this regard I opposite benches to gather people who were not will read to the House part of a letter signed by unionised into the union movement. They Mr Peter Cook who we all know is the Secretary recognised that there was a group of people in of the Trades and Labor Council. This letter was society who had not been touched by the union written on a TLC letterhead, dated the 15th movement; and there was a very good reason for February, 1979, and it was addressed to all that. Basically, they were people who earned their metropolitan area Holden dealers. Before I read living by their own enterprise through this letter, I would like to point out the commissions; they were paid on results. significance of the date of that letter. At the 15th The group of people I am talking about are February .. the Licensed Car Salesmen's salesmen, generally. I am not referring Association Union of Workers was not affiliated specifically to the licensed car salesmen at the with the TLC, so is it not strange that the moment. I can mention the licensed real estate Secretary of the TLC should write on behalf of salesmen, in respect of whom exactly the same that organisation? I wonder whether he had the action was taken. If we trace back to find out who backing of the TLC or whether be wrote on his pressed for the formation of the union for real own initiative. IF he did this off his own bat,.he estate salesmen, we find they were people closely deserves the censure of the TLC. allied to the trade union movement. The letter is marked, "For the attention of all Mr Skidmore: Put a name on them. metropolitan area Holden dealers," and it Mr Bateman: That is the trouble; you will not commences- put a name on them. I write you out of interest for our newest Licensed Mr HERZFELD: I will satisfy the member for affiliated registered Union-the Car Salesmen's Association of W.A. Swan and put a name to one member. In May, 1977, a meeting was held at a hotel whose name I The emergence of a Union in a completely Forget. Four or five people attended this meeting, new area has attracted interest even in the one of whom was found to be a member of the Eastern States, arnd no doubt, there arc Trades and Labor Council secretariat. His name among motor vehicle dealers themselves, is O'Loughlin. many who have noted with some pride that the very First award granted car salesmen Mr Carr: Who'? was brought about by way of a consent Mr HERZFELD: O'Loughlin. agreement. Mr Skidmore: Never ever heard of him. He has Let me just pause there to comment. Firstly, the never been a member of the secretariat. letter states- 474 474[ASSEMBLY]

tAhere are among motor vehicle dealers increased prices onto the general public. I ask themselves, many who have noted with some members to listen to this- pride- We have presently a query from the What an assumption! My information is that ACTU office in Melbourne, as to the Union's motor vehicle dealers themselves are totally progress, though I don't know the reason for opposed to what is happening1 but they have no this-their interest in Australia's biggest choice in the matter. Under the Industrial industry is normally at manufacturer level. Arbitration Act, once a log of claims has been Is that not fascinating? That is a veiled threat, if made, the dealers have no choice but to respond ever there was one, to bring the might of the to it. ACTU down on General Motors-Holden's Mr Skidmore: Could I just ask you a question? Limited if the local dealers did not force their Mr HERZFELD: The member for Swan can salesmen to become members of this union. the get up and make his own speech if he likes; I am letter concludes- not interested in his interjections. Hoping for a continuity of what has always It is rather interesting that the Secretary of the been a harmonious relationship-it is TLC speaks of a consent agreement, because not unlikely that we should want to move away one car salesman-and, after all, it is the car from the GMH product. salesmen who will be affected by this consent I was very interested in this letter, and I felt that agreement-was asked whether he wanted an the facts needed to be checked out with the agreement at all. The car salesmen were not Managing Director of General Motors-Holden's allowed to appear before the Industrial Limited. I wanted to Find out his attitude to this Commission- sort of blackmail and coercion from the trade Mr Skidmore: That is a lot of rubbish. They union movement. So I wrote to him on the 12th can appear as individuals if they want to. March, and I included a copy of the letter from the TLC. In my letter I had this to say- Mr KERZFELD: -even though there was a petition with 475 signatures on it saying that the In its letter, the TLC has very clearly salesmen did not want an award. indicated it will impose sanctions on H-olden dealers if they do not encourage their I will return to the letter, because it becomes salesmen to join the Union. more interesting as it continues. It reads- By inference, the penultimate paragraph of Shortly, I understand, the new Union will the letter would suggest they would -be not be visiting you, and obtaining information averse to the A.C.T.U. applying pressure on from your wage records, primarily for your Company at a National level, to ensure recruiting reasons. dealers in this State comply with their Of course, the union representatives had to call to directions. ind out who was working for the dealer The purpose of my letter is to ask you principals, because not one of the salesmen had whether you would be party to such action if come forward to seek membership of the union; the A.C.T.U. applied pressure on General they did not want a bar of the union. Mr Cook Motors H-olden to bring dealers "into line"? then had this to say- I was very gratified to receive a reply from the As you are aware, the 97 Unions affiliated managing director only four days later. Mr C. S. with the TLC are collectively large buyers of Chapman had this to say- Holden. I have read your letter of I Zth March with Now comes the interesting bit. It reads- interest. I see no harm in asking for a little return This subject has arisen in the past in other business by way of high content union areas. Our policy has always been that our membership amongst your sales staff-it is dealers are independent businesses and we of benefit to them, to the industry, and cannot, and do not, dictate to them on hopefully of public benefit too. Industrial Relations issues such as the one The public benefit came last! How would union you have raised. We have also made this membership be of any public benefit? The results policy quite clear to Unions on occasions of total union membership in this industry would where they have attempted to use this be the same as in any other industry where there Company to impose policies on dealers. is total union membership; that is, it would take So members will see that this type of thing has the competitive edge out of the industry and force been going on for quite some time. Thank [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 19791 4757 goodness that at last we have a company which attracts a penalty, and a very harsh one, I hope will not be dictated to in this manner. The letter the member for Swan will support it. I continues- Mr Skidmore: I say that the industrial coercion We advise dealers that as they are you are referring to is the same coercion relevant members of an appropriate employers' to your speech tonight. There is a big difference organisation, their initial approach should be between the two, and you do not understand to take the problem up with the employers' industrial relations. organisation. Mr Laurance: You are splitting hairs. You can rest assured that we will not be Mr HERZFELD: The member for Swan influenqid by an approach from any Union underestimates my understanding of industrial or the ACTU, and that we will advise the relations. Unions that this is solely a matter for the Mr Skidmore: I certainly do not. dealer concerned. Mr HERZFELD; I have a very firm I have deliberately read out this letter because I commitment to proper industrial relations that do want the dealer principals in Western Australia to not use force or coercion, but which use know what the situation is. I want them to know conciliation, and if that does not work, that General Motors-Holden's Limited will not be arbitration. But that is not the way the union dictated to, and rightly so. I hope that this gives movement works today in this nation. It believes the dealers the courage to stand up to the local in taking direct action first, and then having taken TLC. that action to soften up the system it thinks about Mr Skidmore: You have not got any more, have conciliation and arbitration. you? The whole sad story of the car salesmen and Mr Crane: Good stuffl. what has taken place in this industry provides an M~r HERZFELD: The member for Swan has example of how the union movement works. It been very vocal tonight. I would like to ask him describes the tactics used and how the legislation one question. provided to assist the union movement to conduct Mr Skidmore: I am all ears. its affairs for the benefits of its members is manipulated and used for its own ends. Mr HERZFELD: Does he support these kinds of tactics that I have described to the House It is interesting to note that when the car tonight? salesmen decided that they would discuss the advantages and disadvantages of joining a union, Mr Skidmore: I missed the question because they held a meeting at the Perth Oval and invited you were yelling and [ could not understand you. the union to send representatives to put the views If you will be a little patient, I will answer the of the union. Whilst it was known that the union question. members were in the audience, they did not have Mr HERZFELD: I asked the member for the courage, or the intestinal fortitude to address Swan whether he supports this type of industrial the 500-odd people who had assembled there. blackmail and coercion perpetrated by the TLC, They did not have the courage. They did not like the sort of blackmail I have exposed tonight. the normal channels of persuasion. Instead, they Perhaps the Deputy Leader of the Opposition will preferred the backdoor methods such as the ones I speak for his party on the subject. have described tonight. Mr Skidmore: Fair go-do you want me to I hope that those 500 or 600 members of the answer, or don't you? car selling trade maintain their courageous stand Mr Bryce: It seems quite clear you have in ensuring that they are not railroaded into exposed yourself as a fool, and that is about it. membership of this failing union. It has no chance Mr Skidmore: I can answer the question for of success. The sooner the TLC receives that message, the sooner the union will pull off and you. I do not believe in industrial blackmailI and just go and play its little games with the I5, or 20, coercion. or 100 members it has. They will not enlist any Mr HERZFELD: The honourable member more members. does not believe in industrial coercion? Those four or five people who, at the beginning, Mr Skidmore: I answered the question. Are you stood as guarantors for $26 000, as I understand satisfied? it, to float this enterprise will have to cut their Mr H-ERZFELD: If legislation is introduced losses and forget about their $26000. They will this year to ensure that industrial coercion not receive it from the staggering union dues of 476 476[ASSEMBLY]

$140 a year that they have tried to impose on car Firstly, 1 would like to refer to the plight of salesmen. people in the Donnybrook area who were in the few moments left to me, I want to make subjected to damage caused by cyclone ..Alby". some Final comments. I hope that when legislation The situation is still not good. Although the is introduced later this year by the Government, member for Stirling attempted to ask a question as has been promised by the Minister, the recently about surpluses in the cyclone "Alby" legislation will reinforce article 20 of the funds, he did not obtain an answer. As the Declaration of H-uman Rights which I quoted Western Farmer and Grazier pointed out in its earlier this evening. People should be free to join issue of the 21st December, 1978, the situation a union if they wish. No penalty such as clause still has not been resolved. That issue bears a 61 (b) should be imposed on them if they decide to photograph of two people in Donnybrook who are opt out. If they wish to enjoy the benefits that a in dire straits, to say the least. The heading reads- union can win for them, let them become members, If they do not want to be members, let AFTER eight months of waiting, I5 them fight for their own conditions of work, Donnybrook fruit growers who lost major individually or collectively, however they wish to portions of their orchards to fire at the time do it. of Cyclone Alby have been told that they will get no compensation. There should be heavy penalties and sanctions imposed on those who attempt to blackmail, to Those people are still concerned. coerce, and to force workers into union I wish to quote now a letter which is indicative membership. I want to see the fundamental right of thetype of letter I have been receiving from of freedom of association restored in this society. I fruitgrowers, particularly in the Donnybrook area. want to see any compulsion associated with The letter reads as follows- unionism repudiated. I want to see that. the 27.3.79 legislation which exists today is not abused in the Dear Mr Jones, way it has been. 1 want to ensure that when strikes are illegal, the sanctionts allowed in the I'm afraid the only excuse which I can give for the long delay in writing this letter is legislation are enforced. Those who wish to strike have that opportunity procrastination on my part. That is certainly and withdraw their labour not a fault which you can be accused of, and provided they do not do it under the protective we certainly appreciate the time and effort umbrella of the legislation which has been which you extended on behalf of the fruit provided for their benefit. growers of Donnybrook. I would also hope that when industrial awards And the letter goes on. are granted this will only be after the workers are consulted-after they have been given the I moved a motion in the House asking the opportunity to say whether they require an award Government to extend the criteria under which or not. We do not want the current situation to people could receive additional benefits. continue. That situation allows 15.people to band Unfortunately, in my opinion, the criteria have together and force an award on every worker in not been extended in the direction which my motion suggests it be done. There are some people that industry throughout the length and breadth in financial difficulties with the women working of Western Australia. away from the town of Donnybrook. Those people I hope that 1979 will be the year in which have no alternative. They are suffering as a result industrial democracy is returned in this State. of the effects of cyclone "Alby". Mr Stephens: I hope we have some I understand funds are still held in the Lord parliamentary democracy. Mayor's appeal fund. If that is the case, it is the MR T. HI. JONES (Collie) [8.06 p.m.]: The province of the Government-particularly the Add ress-in- Reply debate affords members the Minister for Agriculture and the Premier-to opportunity to refer to matters exercising their consider this situation with a view to extending minds. Tonight, in the time available to me, I will additional relief. be dealing with a number of matters which might Earlier this year the Minister for Health paid a be considered to be minor, and I will be dealing visit to the Donnybrook Hospital. He would know with one or two matters which are very important of the conditions which exist there. The hospital is and which are exercising the minds not only of the riddled with white ants. The Minister saw for Opposition but of people in Western Australia himself the very bad condition of the hospital. In generally. my opinion, it should be condemned. Sick people [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979147 477 should not be permitted to enter that hospital; but Mrs Craig: Something has been done, and you unfortunately they do. know it. We saw a spectacle during the inspection. Mr T. H. JONES: Last year I referred to the When people are taken into one of the bathrooms generally deplorable condition of State Housing in wheelchairs either to be bathed or sponged Commission homes. down, the bathroom door cannot be shut. There is Mr B. T. Burke: Hear, hear! not sufficient room, so a person in a wheelchair Mr T. H. JONES: I refer to the fact that little has virtually to be bathed in the open. maintenance or no maintenance at all is being As I said, the hospital is riddled with white ants done. The State Housing Commission homes in inmany sections. H-ow long are the Donnybrook Collie in a certain area are becoming a slum. The people expected to tolerate this unfortunate roofs are rusting; there has never been a lick of situation?! Unfortunately the Minister for Health paint put on the roofs. No maintenance has been is absent from the Chamber at the moment. We done on the homes. have been given numerous promises. However, I I have travelled around Western Australia, and plead on behalf of the people in Donnybrook this is the spectacle everywhere. I ask the whom I represent for some positive action to be Minister for Housing when will funds be made taken in respect of this matter. available for upgrading commission homes in Another matter which is causing me concern is Western Australia? I drew this problem to his the slowness of the Government in releasing attention during the Estimates debate last year. housing blocks at Collie. The former Minister for However, nothing has happened. When can we Urban Development and Town Planning (the expect some action to be taken in relation to the Hon. E. C. Rushton) promised that 22 units matter? I raise that matter for the Minister's would be available in November last year, and consideration. that another 100 units would be made available Mr Shalders: Would it not be a terrible thingif early this year. In fact, after continued they went out and bought a pot of paint? representations by myself we now Find that the 22 Mr T. H. JONES: When did the member for lots will not be available until May, and that Murray become the Minister? other lots will be made available later in the year. Mr Davies: Would it not be a terrible thing if This is not good enough. they could afford to buy a pot of paint? Mrs Craig: Two subdivisions have been Mr B. T. Burke: Why? It is the Government's approved. The people who had the approvals can responsibility to do it. That has been raised please themselves when they proceed. before. The Government says the Housing Mr T. H. JONES: I am not arguing about Commission will do it, but then nothing happens. subdivisions. The point is that the Minister's Mr T. H. JONES: That is right. predecessor said that the blocks would be made Another matter which concerns me relates to available last November. It is now April. and not the Western Australia Coal Industry Tribunal. I one block has been made available. The Minister understand that the Government is considering can say what she likes. This is a fact. The blocks abolishing the tribunal-that the matter has been are not available. The Government has not done discussed. However, I hope it never eventuates. as it promised. The Minister should accept her Surely the Government is happy about the good share of the guilt. It is time some positive action industrial relationships existing on the coalfields. was taken. Surely it would not do away with the tribunal, The Minister told the Press last week that the and place the coalmining industry under the member for Collie will be advised. The fact is that jurisdiction of the Industrial Commission. 22 blocks were not made available last November. Mr Sibson: You want to put it under an It is 11ow April, and not one block has been made authority. available yet. There is a shortage of building Mr T. H. JONES: I wish I could place the blocks in the town. It is time something was done member for Bunbury under something to shut to honour the promise the Government gave to him up for a while. That would do me. the shire. Mr Jamieson: Put him under the knuckle. Mrs Craig: Something has been done. You Mr T. H. JONES: I would do the job properly, want to check your facts. without undue interference. Mr T. H. JONES: The Minister knows the Another matter of concern to the coalmining situation. industry is the training programme for 478 478[ASSEMBLY] management officials. It would be right to say we Collie bridge so that boats can find their way up have very limited facilities available on the the Collie River. I hope some consideration will coalfield at present. As a matter of fact, there is be given to this matter. not one qualified manager available to the I am aware that there is a shortage of funds. Western Australian coal industry. I hope the Probably my problems are no different from those Government will consider the training facilities of other members. Insufficient funds are available available. They are very limited at the moment. for schools, hospitals, and public works. I hope, This matter is of concern to the unions and the with the advent of new federalism, we shall see a companies. They are concerned about the lack of change soon. experienced personnel for the coalmining industry of Western Australia. The main matter to which I wish to refer in the 34 minutes available to me is the Government's Another matter which is exercising my mind is policy in relation to power generation in Western the fact that no VIPs visit the coalfields. VIPs Australia. The Minister may laugh, but he has come from England-and we had one here made so many statements that he contradicts recently-and during the time I have been in himself. I do not believe he always remembers Collie, which is approximately 40 years, I have what he says. I hope in the 34 minutes available not seen a VIP visit the coalfields. They go to to me I can quote some of the comments Bunbury, fly down to Albany, on to Esperance, made by the Minister, because I am confident that I can and to Geraldion. They might touch down at Kalgoorlie illustrate that the Minister tells one story one day and then go north. What has Collie and another story the next. done to the Government? Is it not one of the major industrial centres of Western Australia? It is true to say the Minister has said the Surely Collie is entitled to a visit from one of the Government is forced to embark on a nuclear VIPs who come to this State from overseas. programme in Western Australia for a number of I want to lodge a protest on behalf of the people reasons and the least of these reasons is not the of Collie and the Collie Shire in relation to this restricted amount of coal available in Western matter. Australia. However, if we look at the performance of this Government and at the blunders Mr Shalders: We will get Mrs Thatcher to go committed by suc 'cessive Liberal Governments in down there next time she is over here. Western Australia, we will see that the decision to Mr Sibson: Yes; when she is Prime Minister of embark on a nuclear programme is not new, England. because such policies were introduced at the time Mr T. H. JON ES: When bands visit this State of the McLarty Government and they spell out they go to Bunbury and Busselton. I wonder why clearly the mismanagement which has occurred in some of the predominantly Labor areas do not relation to the power generation system and the receive the same attention as the Liberal coalfields of Western Australia. Government areas. I should like to discuss briefly what happened Mr Shalders: Mr Wran came to Mandurah. in the 1940s and I1950s. The Liberal McLarty Why didn't he go to Collie? Government introduced a cost-plus system in Mr T. H. JONES: I wonder how long the Collie which gave Amalgamated Collieries, the member for Murray has been representing the largest company operating in the Field, a Labor Party. guaranteed profit. Mr Shalders: He is a Labor Premier and he Mr Laurance: Are you sure you have gone back came to Mandurah. I thought you might have got far enough? him lo go to Collie. Mr T. H. JONES: We saw then the Mr Sibson: He said, "I will not go down to mechanisation which took place in the coalfields. Collie to see that old fellow". Large sums of money were made available for a Mr T. H. JONES: Another matter which is heavy mechanisation programme. Shuttle cars, concerning me is the dredging of the estuary at mechanical miners, and other large forms of Australind. We have a problem there, as the mining equipment were introduced. However, the memiber for Bunbury is aware. It is not a laughing programme failed. matter; it is a serious matter, because boats When these large machines were brought onto experience difficulties travelling from the estuary the coalfields, productivity was approximately into the Collie River. There is an urgent need for three tonnes per man, per shift. As a result of the dredging to be carried out and also for a beacon lighter machines which are used now, productivity to be erected somewhere in the vicinity of the has risen to eight tonnes per worker, per shift. [Wednesday, I11th April, 1979]47 479

Of course, we had the blunder at Kwinana. All Australian taxpayer's money which has been members know the story in relation to that. The wasted. chickens have certainly come home to roost at this This is the true Story and no-one can deny it. point in time. The Minister said in the Press on Wednesday, the We opposed the building programme at 6th September- Kwinana, as we opposed the doubling of capacity Moreover, I believe Mr Bligh is missing of the Kwinana power station in 1965; but the the main point. The share of the Government of the day said, "Coal will be commercially extractable coal reserves at finished. In 30 years there will be no coal left. Collie available for power generation is likely The coalfields will be closed and Western to be completely committed during the Australia cannot depend on Collie coal as a fuel 1990s. for power generation in this State in the long term." The Government took this action at a time What a lot of hogwash. The Minister knows that when the rest of the world was turning back to the proven reserves of coal as contained in the booklet he published on energy patterns in coal. However, this State was swinging over to oil. Western Australia stand at a figure of 400 million Members will recall that I moved three motions tonnes of extractable reserves at Collie. The condemning the Government for adopting this Mi nister said also that additional reserves may be policy; but apparently the Liberal Government of Western Australia was all right and the rest of found. the world was out of step. Like hell it was! We all That is not the true story. If we look at the know the situation. We all know the story very geophysical survey of Collie we find there are clearly. 5 000 million tonnes of coal. at Collie and the Minister cannot deny this. Those 5 Of course the biggest blunder made by the 000 million tonnes of coal cannot be extracted by the Liberal Government was that it did not install tunnelling dual-fired units at the Kwinana power station, system; but we have to reach the stage where we put down deep shafts. There because it has been decided now that the unit are large should be converted back to coal. This conversi on underground seams also. I should like to give has cost the State approximately $40 million to some examples of these. There is a 2.1 metre date. It will cost even more. Only some of the seam, a 2.7 metre seam, a 3.3 metre seam, a 4.1 units have been converted. metre seam, and another seam of 13.3 metres. I can go on and on. Then the Government gave us the stupid story Mr Young: You could go on and on! that in 30 years' time the coalfields would be finished. We did not accept that argument. We Mr T. H. JONES: These are not my figures. said, "What about getting on with the job and They are the figures of Mr Joe Lord. It is all very doing some boring on the Collie coalfields?" well for the Minister to say that our coal reserves However, the Government knew best. The will be committed by the year 1990, but this is not Minister for Industrial Development said it was a factual statement. In addition to the 400 million not necessary because the reserves of coal had tonnes of extractable coal which have been been proven. proven, 87 million tonnes of coal still remain in pillars on the coalfields. As the Minister We all know what happened. The Tonkin knows, because of the method of extraction we recover Government, along with the Peabody Company of America and Westcoal of Collie, initiated the only one-third of what we mine. There is another 87 million tonnes of coal, plus other veins of coal boring programme which lifted the extractable hanging on to the roofs of the mines. Therefore, reserves from 87 million tonnes to 400 million I say that the proven reserves of coal would tonnes. Prior to the increase in the price of be in was able to the vicinity of approximately 500 million tonnes. Arabian oil, the Tonkin Government We could obtain this coal without boring. announce the addition or two 200-megawatt units at the Muja generation station at Collie. The The Minister made a statement recently in Liberal Government came to power and deferred relation to the mine study he conducted. I spoke the project for 12 months. The cost of these two to a gentleman from the Australian Research units when the Tonkin Government announced Laboratories and asked him if it was possible to they were to be built was $87 million. The latest use the pillars which exist on the field and he said, figure I can obtain for the capital cost of the "Yes". The time will come when this coal will be installation of these two 200-megawatt units is used. $120 million, an increase of $33 million or 38 per It is time something was done about getting cent. If we add those two figures together, we will down under the earth and extracting these coal arrive at a figure of $78 million of the Western reserves. We could extract some of the 5 000 480 480 ~[ASSEMtBLY] million tonnes of coal. A total of 400 million know about the costs of nuclear power? We know tonnes of extractable coal is available in addition very little. to 87 million tonnes of coal in the mine pillars, Last year the Minister told me that the cost of The Figure of 5 000 million tonnes is contained in nuclear power in the United States of America the report of the Mines Department if anyone was le per kilowatt hour. Bringing that back wishes to read it. to- I should like to indicate the initiative taken by Mr McPharlin: What did happen in the Government in New South Wales when, as a Harrisburg? result of two years of hard work by the Mines Mr Skidmore: I will tell you. Department in that State, the Hunter Valley Mr MePharlin: We are not asking you. seam was discovered in the Gunnedah basin. There was concern that it might be larger than Mr T. H. JONES: I believe the honourable the Hunter Valley deposit. This is what has been member has woken up. I was about to say that the done. This type of work is being carried out in nuclear costs in America, based on Australian Queensland also. What is the Government of this currency, are 0.95c per kilowatt hour and, of State doing about boring for coal? It is doing course, the cost at the oil-fired power station at Collie is l.15c nothing. I wonder whether it wants to do per kilowatt hour, which is a anything. difference of 0.20c per unit. We do not know, however, what the American cost entailed. I do The Federal Minister [or National know that the Minister supplied me with an Development in a Press Statement recently said answer last year which said that the cost of 1.1 5c that his Government emphasised the important at the Muja power station in Collie includes fuel, role which coal will play in the energy resources capital charges, and operating and maintenance of Australia. If we want to refer to nuclear charges; but I do not know what the American energy, we must consider the report which I cost involved. mentioned briefly earlier. It was tabled in the We do have small units. We have 60-megawatt Senate of the United States last year. In that units operating which are not as efficient as some report we see that there are unknown costs of of the larger units, such as the 500-megawatt radioactive waste, and spent nuclear fuel units which have been installed at Yallourn, and management and decommissioning costs have not Vales Point and Liddell in New South Wales. yet been determined. Members will appreciate the fact that the The recent incident in Pennsylvania indicates higher the capacity the greater the performance the seriousness of the situation. in 1974 a total of from the plant. The Minister does not know very nine units were cancelled in the USA and another much more about nuclear power than he knew 91 units were deferred. The report continues. We last year. On the I1st August, last year, I asked- have to look at other factors associated with What is the estimated capital cost of a nuclear power and one of these is its efficiency. nuclear energy State power station compared This is demonstrated clearly by Charles with a coal-fired station on the basis of Komanoff, an expert in nuclear economics who megawatts? said that efficiency of a nuclear plant is nowhere The Minister replied- nearly as high as the efficiency of a coal-burning plant. This is what he said- As no recent detailed work has been carried out on nuclear power station costs in The average capacity factor for the larger Australia, only very approximate figures can plants is 55 percent as compared with 70 be given. percent [or coal-fired units. .. That is what the Minister told Parliament last This report indicates clearly the problems year. I asked a similar question on the 3rd April associated with nuclear energy. If we proceed this year and he gave me the same reply; that the with the construlction of a I 000-megawatt cost could be between $600 million and $800 nuclear plant in Western Australia and the plant million per kilowatt. In answer to a question goes out of commission, what will we do? Western asked by the member for Welshpool, the Minister Australia would be in turmoil, because we would showed he had not done his homework. On the not have additional capacity at our disposal and 8th April, this year, the Minister was asked- be able to use it quickly enough. What would Was the State Government's decision to happen if a similar situation occurred here as build a nuclear power plant in Western occurred in Harrisburg'? This is what the Australia based on the estimated cost of Government should be considering. What do we $600 million to $800 million which he gave [Wednesday, I11th A pril1, 19791 4818

this House on the-1st August last year or was The Minister replied- it made before the Government had any cost There are a number of matters which have estimates? to be considered in detail when considering a specific nuclear power plant and the matters The Minister replied- mentioned by the member are two which As it has been announced very often, the require attention. However, the prevailing State Government's decision for a nuclear opinion worldwide is that nuclear power generated power station is based on the stations are capable of being designed and necessity and the desire of any responsible able to satisfactorily overcome these and Government to supply the community with other problems and are in fact the most its required power. economic and satisfactory choice of power I ask members: Where is the necessity in view of generation in many parts of the world at the the 400 million to 500 million tonnes of known present time. extractable reserves of coal at Collie? The I would like to have a referendum of the people at commission will burn some live million tonnes this time in order to find out the opinion of the each year. Even if on present planning the burn is people in view of what has happened. Of course, extended to 10 million tonnes I can see a 50 years' white the rest of the world was swinging to coal- supply of coal available without any additional fired power stations, we are aware that Sir reserves. Wbere is the emergency? It is clear to Charles 'Court-as we now know me that the Government has gone overboard him-announced on the 17th June. last year, that again as it did on the question of determining the we would have nuclear power by 1995. 1 could go position of a nuclear power station in Western on and on. A newspaper headline stated, "Court Australia. prepares for nuclear site". On the 10th January this year the Premier said the site would be Mr Mclver. "Nationwide" asked the same announced by the 30th June this year. question of the Minister. Irrespective of what has happened at Harrisburg the Premier has said that the Western Australian Mr T. H. JON ES: And he did not answer the plant will go ahead. He is not worried about what question. His figures are out of date. He answered happened in Pennsylvania. HeI knows all about a question on the information available to him 12 nuclear power! He said he knew all about the oil- months ago; he has nothing new. versus-coal issue! Many people have queried the cost involved. We now ind the Premier is to send the Chief One person who wrote to The West Australian on Commissioner, Mr Kirkwood, on an N-power the 6th March this year, stated- study trip. The Premier said that he would It was said to be based on overseas announce by June of this year the site of the estimates, but a similar station in the United proposed nuclear power station, and he has now States cost $1200 million in January, 1973. announced that Mr Kirkwood will go overseas. Electricity commissions throughout the He was to leave Perth on Sunday, the 8th April, world were now estimating between $1500 to make a major study of nuclear power and $2000 million for these reactors and developments. The Premier was not worried about prices were expected to rise to $3000 million that when he said that we will have nuclear by 1985 and $4000 million by 1990. power. The Minister also has said that we will have nuclear power. I am sure the Minister does not know the cost. All Money has been spent on solar energy, but no he could give us in April were the same figures he money is available to do some exploratory boring quoted last year. However, all of a sudden we are on the Collie reserves. I will now refer to current embarking on a nuclear programme. The position world opinions. This is most important. was clearly spelt out on the 9th August last year -Unfortunately, the situation which we find when I asked- operating throughout the world is that the larger Is it a fact that among the serious nations are having second thoughts about nuclear problems associated with nuclear power power. plants are-- Firstly, I will refer to Britain. The Minister for (a) the disposal of waste; and Energy in Great Dritain (Mr Wedgewood-Benn) (b) the safeguards to be- adopted regarding said- safety and health, when the station is We have not established a safe means of taken out of commission? final disposal of high-level wastes which is (16) 482 482ASS EM BLY]

satisfactory or which we could put to the "No"; the Labor Opposition has said, "No"; and public as satisfactory. the Labor Opposition in Western Australia That is the situation in Great Britain today. clearly says. "No", because we do not know According to Mr Wilmhurst's report. Britain is enough about it. significantly behind Sweden in technology in this Some countries have no alternative but to area. It will be about two years before that embark on a nuclear programme but that is not situation can be successfully reappraised. the situation in Western Australia. I repeat: The What is happening in Sweden? A totally proven reserves of coal in Western Australia are different situation obtains there. The centre party, 500 million tonnes. A quantity of 400 million which formed part of the coalition Government, proven tonnes is available and between 80 million was elected specifically on a programme of not and 100 million tonnes are available in the pillars fueling one additional reactor. What happened, of and the roofs of the coal mines. The Minister course, was that Mr Falldin, the leader of the cannot deny that reserve is available. Five party-who later became the Prime hundred million tonnes is the proven extractable Minister-said no additional reactor would be quantity which exists at the moment. fueled. Four reactors have been built, but they People are asking the Minister how much coal have not been fueled. The original programme of is at Collie. The Minister is unable to tell those the previous social democratic party was to build people, and I cannot tell them. The Minister is a total of 13 stations. doing nothing to prove the reserves. Mr Mensaras: Have you caught up with the I do not know whether there is some hatred of referendum in Sweden just recently? the coalfields. The Premier showed his hatred Mr T. H. JONES: I know all about the when he doubled the capacity of the Kwinana oil- referendum, and I know of the Government burning station in 1965. That was the biggest decision made this year. blunder ever made in Western Australia. The Premier was responsible. I was secretary of the Mr Mensaros: You give a wrong picture. union at the time and we had discussions. The Mr T. H. JONES: Japan also is concerned Premier was responsible for the blunder which about nuclear energy, and in particular nuclear has cost the taxpayers of Western Australia in the waste. Japan has proved no repository whatever vicinity of $80 million. for the final safe disposal of waste. The Sir Charles Court: That was an election that a number of countries frightening thing is commitment by the then Premier on behalf of the faced with the Final disposal of waste are now Government. looking at the disposal of that waste on the seabed. No-one really can be satisfied with that Mr T. H. JONES: It was a commitment when for a final disposal of the waste. the present Premier was Minister for Industrial Development. Sir David Brand, in his memoirs, worse. France has The situation in France is far said he was sorry for what he did to the people at made it perfectly clear that it has no intention, at Collie. this stage or in the foreseeable future, of investigating or developing a technique for the Mr Stephens: Who was the Minister disposal of high level wastes. That country intends responsible for electricity at the time? to leave these wastes in air-cooled holds in the Mr T. H. JONES: Sir. Charles Court, as we floor of its plants. Those wastes could be there for now know him. He was the Minister with a heavy 40 years or more, and then a decision will be hand; the heavy hand he still uses in this made on what to do with the waste. What will Parliament today. He has said that we will go happen during that time? aheadwith nuclear power in Western Australia; it The Netherlands -is embarrassed about the does not matter what the rest of the world is position of high level wastes. The programme in doing. America is going back to coal, but that that country was to bury the waste in deep country is behind the times! We are supposed to subterranean salt domes. There are similar be in front of America and other nations with problems in West Germany and in the United regard to technology. What a blunder! States. Everywhere one looks on an international Members do not have to accept what I have basis the problems have not been solved. said; the information is available in booklet form. the Minister cannot know our coal reserves It is admitted that 400 million tonnes of without additional boring. There is no necessity extractable coal is available at Collie. The for a nuclear power station in Western Australia. maximum burn on existing estimates will require The Victorian Government has already said, some five million tonnes a year. [Wednesday, I Ilth April, 1979148 483

That is allowing for increased capacity. When wasted $80 million of the taxpayers' money and Kwinana and Collie are finished, we will have an he is not answerable for it. He should be increased capacity of 1 800 megawatts in our grid condemned, as should members of the Cabinet at system, and by 1995 it is envisaged, with some 7 the time, for agreeing to this policy which was per cent increase, that there will be a capacity of contrary to world opinion, and particularly 5 000 megawatts. So when the extensions at contrary to the policies being initiated in other Collie and* Kwinana are completed, we will parts of the world. require to use only five million additional tonnes a year. That will make 10 million tonnes a year, so Amendment to Motion that on his own admission there are 40 years of coal left without extracting pillars. That is what is Mr T. H. JONES: As a consequence of the bad stated in the booklet. performances by successive Liberal Governments and the stupidity of the present -Liberal I ask the people of Western Australia and the Government. I move- Government whether there is need to turn to this urgent programme of nuclear energy. We know That the following words be added to the there are many problems. Look at what happened Address-in-Reply to His Excellency's in Pennsylvania. It is doubtful whether that Speech- station will ever operate again. There is the but we regret to inform your Excellency problem of decommissioning and there is the that as a result of misguided and ill- problem of Wvaste. Every country throughout the conceived energy policies pursued by world is experiencing these difficulties your Government and previous State We should not be fooled. There is no necessity Liberal Governments, West Australians, particularly pensioners for Western Australia to embark on a nuclear and iow income earners, face unnecessary hardship programme at this time. through steeply increasing bills. .Mr Mclver: What did it cost the people of Furthermore, this House condemns Western Australia to convert the Kwinana oil your Government's determination to station? proceed with a nuclear power plant in Mr T. H. JONES: It has cost $40 million, but W.A., despite- that is peanuts to this Liberal Government. * inadequate safeguards for the use Mr Mclver: Good grief! of nuclear energy and disposal of Mr T. H. JONES: There is more to come. nuclear Waste; Somebody made a blue and the Government * potential risks to residents near a acted on it. The Government should have installed nuclear plant; dual-Fired units the same as those installed at the 0 insufficient information to justify power stations in South Fremantle, Bunbury, and the need for a plant on economic East Perth. Why were not these units installed at grounds. Kwinana? I know the reason for this. Unfortunately it was caused by the Premier's MR BRYCE (Ascot-Deputy Leader of the hatred of the Collie miners' union and the people Opposition) [8.48 p.m.]: I second the amendment of Collie. moved by the member for Collie. Sir Charles Court: Just your own imagination! I am proud to say that just slightly more than 10.years after the member for Collie entered this Mr T. H. JONES: The Premier knows the. place he has been proven to be correct. I am story. H-e threw all those men out of work. proud to stand in this place to give him my Sir Charles Court: I was not even the Minister support. If members of Parliament keep their eyes for Mines then, you know. and their minds open, they will see that for 10 Mr T. H. JONES: He made a blue. long years the member (or Collie has prevailed Mr B. T. Burke: What did Sir David Brand say upon this Government and the Tonkin in his memoirs? Government that held office between 19.71 and 1974 to see the importance of coal as a form of Sir Charles Court: I have not seen the memoirs. energy in Western Australia. Mr B. T. Burke: He dropped a big can on you. As the member for Collie suggested to the Mr T. H. JONES: Of course, by deferring the House, for some strange reason the Brand Tonkin Labor Governm ent's extension Gtovernment seemed to be heavily influenced by programme at Muja for 12 months it increased the oil lobby, and that influence during the 1960s the capital cost by 38 per cent. Our Premier has has cost us dearly. 484 [ASSEMBLY] Sir Charles Court: Why do you say that? Don't Sir Charles Court: Who told you that? you give any credit for the fact that we had very Mr BRYCE: There was panic inside the SEC. cheap fuel for a long number of years? Mr BRYCE: When the Premier says we had Sir Charles Court: Who told you that?) very cheap fuel for a long number of years, is he Mr BRYCE: Would not the Premier like to already forgetting that for all those years he says know? Would he not like to find out who told me, the price of fuel was so cheap, his colleague, the so that he could pursue the matter and the person Minister for Fuel and Energy, refused to disclose concerned to the point where he would be outside to the public of Western Australia what the deal the Public Service? seems that was a State was in respect of fuel? It Sir Charles Court: It does not happen to be had no intention secret. The Brand Government right. Somebody has led you up the garden path. of reve~ling to the people of Western Australia precisely what the deal was. Nobody in Western Mr BRYCE: There was panic inside the SEC. Australia really understands how cheap this Maps were called for, and chief engineers were supply of fuel was to provide oil-powered given direction to do some work to try to lend generators during the life of the Liberal some credibility to this wild and imaginative Government. statement that had been made by the Premier Over the last few months the member for Collie when he returned to Western Australia. At this has been vindicated; he has been proved to be moment, expert people working for the SEC will quite right. It is lunacy for the State Government concede privately-and I use the word "privately" to begin to make plans for a nuclear power because they fear for their jobs-that this State station. This is the same level of stupidity as was does not need a nuclear power station and that exhibited by the Brand Government in the 1960s there is no just ificat ion-eonomy-wise or energy- when it entered into a multi-million dollar wise-for its establishment. investment in capital to build an oil-fired power The SEC is being pushed from pillar to post station when we knew that the reserves of coal in because of the Premier's imagination. He needed our own State-less than 100 miles away from an issue, and he decided to pin his hopes for the that major generating station-were plentiful, 1980 election on the establishment of a nuclear and that those resources were there to be used for power station in Western Australia. decades. Mr Lau rence: I will remind you of ibis when I do not question the figures given to this your kids are living in the dark in a few years House by the member for Collie. I believe that time. not only is he a dedicated member, but also he is Well informed on the question of the use of coal Mr BRYCE: Will the member for Gascoyne and the amount of coal that we have at our indicate to me, by way of interjection, that he disposal in Western Australia. I can imagine that would be pleased to see a nuclear power station perhaps the Minister may care to east some doubt established in Carnarvon? on the member's figures, as the Minister now has Mr Laurance: Where? a vested interest in doing that. This Minister, In league with his Premier, is using the State Energy Mr BRYCE: Would the member for Gascoyne Commission as a political pawn. Members will be quite happy at the establishment of a nuclear recall that during the course of 1978 the Premier power station in Cernarvon? travelled the world at the taxpayer's expense Mr Lauraence; Well it is a hypothetical seeking vast sums of money for investment in question. Western Australia. His trip was a monumental Mr BRYCE: Is the member not prepared to failure, and on his way back he realised- answer it? Sir Charles Court: You have a vivid Mr B. T. Burke: Wriggle, wriggle! imagination. Mr BRYCE: We would like to hear the Mr BRYCE: On his return to Western member for Gascoyne tell us that he would, in Australia the Premier realised that the very best principle, support the establishment of a nuclear he could do to grab the headlines was to promise power statioft in Carnarvon. the people of this State that they would have a nuclear power station. The State Energy Mr Laurance: Absolutely. If we could get one Commission knew absolutely nothing about plans to support a community of that size, it would a for the establishment of a nuclear power station. breakthrough; a wonderful breakthrough. This proposal was the creation of the Premier of Mr BRYCE: Now I would like to ask the same this State while he was overseas because he question of the member for Murray. I understand desperately looked for a diversion. The SEC knew that some consideration has been given to the absolutely nothing about it, establishment of one of these stations somewhere L [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979] 485 in the Murray electorate between Mandurab and Mr BRYCE; Within the Albany Shire. Bunbury. Mr Watt: Yes. Mr Shalders: You will ind out my attitude at Mr Rushton: You would not even know where the appropriate time. that is. Mr BRYCE: Another one who is hedging on his bets. Mr BRYCE: I have a rough idea that the Albany Shire surrounds the Town of Albany for Mr Shalders: You were not prepared to tell the quite some distance. I have been there. Might I Premier of the man who gave information. say that if I was living in the Shire of Albany I Wriggle, wriggle. You are just as bad-the pot is would not be particularly impressed with the idea calling the kettle black. of a nuclear power station being built within that Mr BRYCE: Might I add that in this exercise shire. I would not want to rear a family within the there is no fear of anyones job except that of the proximity of such a power plant. member for Murray and mine. I will state categorically that I am unequivocally opposed to Mr Shalders: They were not very impressed the establishment of a nuclear power station with Labor at Albany. They got rid of your anywhere in the constituency I represent. Can the member. member for Murray condone his party's policy? Is Mr BRYCE: Let us wait and sewhat happens the member for Murray as courageous as was the in early 1980 or late 1979, because this issue member for Gascoyne. or is it that the member could well see a number of members opposite out for Gascoyne is more interested in gaining access looking for jobs. to Cabinet? The member for Gascoyne has Maid that he supports the Premier's plan and I again Mr O'Connor: You said that before the last ask the member for Murray: Would he .support election. the establishment orai nuclear ?ower station in his Mr Laurance: Would you prefer to see your electorate? electors face a situation such as that which Mr Shalders: It is a purely hypothetical occurred in New York when that city was without question. power? You know of the looting and murder that Mr BRYCE: The member's attitude is not occurred. hypothetical. If he does not want to hedge his Mr BRYCE: This man from Gascoyne has an bets, reserve his options, or wriggle at a imagination which I think warrants being subsequent date, he would be quite happy to put it committed to the form of a novel. on the record right now that he is opposed to it. The amendment before the Chamber at this Mr Shalders: You will find out at a later time. moment challenges members opposite to establish Mr BRYCE: Perhaps I might 4irect that that there is an economic or energy argument to question to the member for Albany. substantiate the need for the stupidity of this Sir Charles Court: One of your colleagues will particular decision. What this decision amounts to have a moment of decision if it is decided to is that the nuclear lobby in the United States and export yellow cake through (Jeraldton. in Europe brought pressure to bear on the Mr BRYCE: I ask the member for Albany Premier while he was there; and on the way home whether he is prepared to support the he realised it might not be a bad idea to back establishment of a nuclear power station within nuclear power for an election. We are pleased to the Albany electorate? see him back it for electoral purposes, because it Mr O'Neil: Wherdi would you put it? You could well be his swan song. would have to put it on its edge. Mr Watt: You might be right, but any Mr Watt: Yes, provided it was not alongside Government that did not plan for the future any town, It would not be put alongside Belmont, would be foolish. Carnarvon, or anywhere else. Sir Charles Court: Do you favour Esperance or dMr BRYCE: So there is no misunderstanding. Geraldton for the export of yellow cake? dI understand the member for Albany to say he Mr BRYCE: Before I leave this matter I would is quite happy to have such a power station like to direct a question to the Minister for Local established in Albany? Government, who happens to be the member for Several members interjected. Wellington. since there has been some talk about Mr Watt: Albany Shire goes for about 60 her neck of the woods being a possible site for a miles. nuclear plant. 486 486[ASSEMBDLY)

Mrs Craig; There has been no talk at all. A Mr BRYCE: Is the member not man enough to newspaper indicated that it may be so; that is all accept that challenge? If he will accept that that has happened. challenge and move to extend my time, I shall be Mr BRYCE: Is the Minister therefore going to only too happy to accommodate him. give us an unequivocal answer? Mr Shalders: Just a "Yes" or "No" will do. Mr O'Connor: Is this question time, or have Mr BRYCE: It is quite obvious that the you a speech to make? Premier is at this stage intending to ask Western Mr BRYCE: Or are we expected to accept at Australians of the future to pay a very dear price this stage of the debate that we must put up with for energy because of the blunder of his the type of answers we expect from the Minister Government during the 1960s. At this time the for Local Government at question time? Is she only price being paid for that blunder is a price in prepared to answer? dollars and cents, and it is being paid by Mr Rushton: You are back in the classroom pensioners, by ordinary citizens, and by now. businessmen in terms of the cost of electricity. Mrs Craig: Had you any manners, you would We are frequently told that the cost of have noticed I was being spoken to. electricity in this State is the highest of all the States. Part of that cost has been well and truly Mir BRYCE: One wonders to whom the established by virtue of the fact that the Brand Minister owes her primary responsibility. Government, strongly influenced as it was by the Sir Charles Court: Not to you. oil lobby, made a secret deal and set up oil- Mr BRYCE: She certainly owes it to this burning power stations; and in so doing it placed House. Western Australia on a very sticky wicket in the Mr O'Neil: The House is represented by the 1970s, As the member for Collie has pointed out Chair, not your ranting. to the House the consumers of electricity in this State have been expected to find in excess of $40 Mr BRYCE: As a matter of courtesy, I ask, million to convert part of the Kwinana power through you, Mr Speaker, whether the member station back to coal. The Minister indicated on for Wellington supports a proposition to build a nuclear power station within her constituency. the programme "Nationwide" that the cost to Convert that power station completely to coal Mrs Craig: The member for Wellington feels would be prohibitive. It would be cheaper to close very much the same as many other members. I down the station than to convert it completely to would not support any site unless it had been coal. He said the station will continue to burn oil. thoroughly researched and found to be the most efficient and best site. I suspect that no other Mr Mensaros: Two units have been converted member on this side of the House would say at Kwinana. anything else. Mr BRYCE: Yes, but that is only a saving Mr BRYCE: She will not answer, either! grace. Sir Charles Court: That is the answer of the Sir Charles Court: They are the big units. Government. Mr BRYCE: Exactly, but that conversion Mr Jamieson: I have never heard anybody be solves only part of the blunder, does it not? It more circumlocutory than that. solves only part of the error of judgment. Mr Shalders: Will you support your colleague, Mr Mensa roe: I will tell you later. the member for Morley, in respect of his stand on Mr BRYCE: Now this Government is unionism? suggesting to the people of Western Australia Mr Bateman: What has that to do with nuclear that they should enter the field of nuclear power; energy? that, arm in arm with the Government, they should embrace the concept of nuclear energy. Mr BRYCE: Why does not the member for Murray stick to the point? What is the question At this stage practically everybody involved in before the Chair? the planning and building of nuclear power stations throughout the world is concerned and Mr Shalders: Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle! very anxious that the cost of building such Mr BRYCE: If the member for Murray will stations is reaching prohibitive levels. Contrary to show he is a man of substance and move that my the arguments put to the people by the Premier, time be extended by a further 30 minutes, I will the technology does *not exist to make nuclear be very happy to accommodate him. generating stations safe enough, and that is Mr Shalders: Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle! precisely why the Diablo Canyon plant in [Wednesday, I I th April, 1979]18 497

California is costing the Pacific Gas and Electric Sir Charles Court: They are not worried about Company $1 500 million; and that was the figure it. current in 1977. How desperate would Western Mr BRYCE: Exactly! They are not worried Australia have to be in economic terms to be about it; as the member for Collie said, they are considering the need to find that sort of money in storing it in air-conditioned bins and great ponds. a decade's time-by then it would probably be They have said publicly that they cannot find a twice that amount-to finance a nuclear power proper solution to the problem of disposal of station? waste. Sir Charles Court: When did the Labor Party Sir Charles Court: You are a little out of date. change its view on nuclear power? Mr BRYCE: Might I indicate quite Mr O'Connor: Twice a week. unequivocally to the Premier that the information Mr BRYCE: The Premier is an authority on I have comes from a certain Professor Ringwood the Labor Party; why does he ndt answer his own who is associated with the Australian Atomic question? Energy Commission, and who presented evidence Sir Charles Court: When did you change your -efore a committee of my party at the national mind? level, of which 1 happen to be a member. He presented evidence in respect of the matter Mr T. H. Jones: Show where we have done scarcely a month ago. Is the Premier now going to that. tell me there has been a great breakthrough since Sir Charles Court: The Tonkin Government then? carried out a reconnaissance for a nuclear site. Mr Watt: There are experts who support the MrT T. H. Jones: Rubbish. other side of the argument. Sir Charles Court: Your present leader was the Mr BRYCE: There is not an expert in the Minister for Town Planning in that Government. world who will put his reputation on the line and Mr BRYCE: When the Premier returned from say there is a safe method of disposing of nuclear overseas it was his bright idea, and nobody else's, waste products. I have not seen one single expert to establish a nuclear power station in this State. who is prepared to sign his name to a document As far as the State Energy Commission was saying that a certain method constitutes a concerned, it was a dead letter. The commission technically safe method to dispose of such waste. did not know of the matter until it read about it in Mr O'Connor: Is there a safe method of driving the newspaper. Then there was a panic within the Motor vehicles On roads? SEC when its officers found out about the Mr BRYCE: If only the Minister for Labour Premier's comments. They had to get busy and and Industry, who aspires to be the leader of that dig up maps and look for something to* try to great party opposite, could see that there is a make the Premier sound credible. monumental difference between the effect on Mr Laurance: Are you not giving away your human beings and the human race of driving source of information now? motorcars on roads and of establishing nuclear power plants. If the Minister cannot see that Mr BRYCE: Part of the amendment moved by difference, it is not mry intention to take time off the member for Collie spells out to this my speech to explain it to him. Parliament that we believe there are inadequate ,in safeguards in respect of the use of nuclear energy The Premier said in this House tonight in his and the disposal of nuclear waste. I never cease to most glib fashion that all we have to do is find a be amazed at the manner in which the Premier piece of terrain which is geologically old and presents himself to this House as a technical stable, and then bury the nuclear waste. expert. He does a quick buzz around the world Sir Charles Court: I didn't say that. and comes back and says, "I assure members of Mr Jamieson: Yes you did, even though you the House that if is safe to use nuclear energy, mentioned salt mines and other things. that safe methods have been discovered, and safe Mr BRYCE: I think the Premier might have technology has been developed to dispose of mentioned granite or basalt. I go back to the nuclear waste products"-which is palpably and scientists in respect of this argument: There is no absolutely untrue. safe method for the disposal of nuclear waste. If The Premier knows that the French, for the Premier could give us details of a safe method example, are not disposing of their waste but are he would do so. He professes to have technical storing it on one side. They would like to pretend knowledge, but when we ask him questions in the it does not exist. House he merely says, "Find a piece of rock old 488 488[ASSEMBLY] enough and stable enough, and dig a hole and Mr BRYCE: The Premier very rarely hesitates bury the waste." on any stand he takes on anything. I think he Sir Charles Court: Nuclear plants have been realises there is a political time bomb involved in running for a long time without any disastrous this argument and that answer, and he is running results in respect of waste. for cover. If that were not the case he would say, Mr BRYCE: Does not that demonstrate the "Yes, I am prepared to dump the waste in those tunnel vision of the Premier? All he is concerned remote areas." The Premier never did explain about is the 1970s and the 1960s. When he makes whether he is in fact prepared to accept spent fuel a statement like that be shows he is not concerned rods from Japan or any other part of the world. about future generations. Sir Charles Court: You read the answer. There Sir Charles Court: That is just what we are was no evasion about it. concerned about, because if there is not a Mr BRYCE: It was a typically evasive answer. breakthrough with nuclear energy, future We just cannot get a definite statement from him. generations will not have jobs. Sir Charles Court: You have definite Mr Jamieson: Rubbish! statements from us on nuclear matters. You Mr Skidmore: They haven't got jobs now. should have the paper I gave at the seminar on Mr BRYCE: Thanks to the efforts of the Monday. Premier and his colleagues on the front bench Mr BRYCE: If it is a simple matter, why not there are now 40000 more Western Australians tell us now? out of work than when he came to office. Sir Charles Court: Our policy has been very What a pious argument the Premier has put clearly stated. We will not talk about this when forward. The Premier knows there is absolutely you use the phrases you like using about dumping no safe method. The French, who are the most wastes and which you feed to the gallery above. arrogant in respect of this argument in world Mr BRYCE: Perhaps the Premier would be terms, have said they do not really care. They just argue that the future will take care of itself. They prepared to accept- have nuclear power stations merrily churning out Sir Charles Court: The waste has to be dumped waste fuel rods of high, medium and low level properly, using the correct technology. forms of radioactive wastes and they are simply Mr BRYCE: I repeat what the article said: stockpiling it. They do not have the answer, "The Premier, Sir Charles Court, says he is neither do the British, the Germans, nor the prepared to have nuclear waste dumped in remote Americans. areas of this State." I think it is reasonable to In an article I have here the Premier ridicules assume that if this were wrong the Premier would President Carter. President Carter may not have say he had been misquoted. the political astuteness of the Premier of Western Sir Charles Court: I will not say that because I Australia but he was a nuclear physicist in the answered this matter in the proper fashion when Navy before he finally became President. One answering a question yesterday. There are varying would imagine that he has a reasonable circumstances to be considered. If you do not like understanding of the problems involved, my word, you should consult Professor Titterton. particularly with respect to technical problems. There is a fortune The article from The Canberra Times dated the to be made for future 30th July, 1978, headed "Court willing to accept generations of Western Australians if we have nuclear waste", starts off by saying, "The this waste with proper safeguards in geologically Western Australian Premier, Sir Charles Court, stable areas. says he is prepared to have nuclear waste dumped Mr BRYCE: The Premier has touched on the in remote areas of this State." Is that a correct vital question. H-e has said that for future and accurate attitude? Western Australians there is a fortune to be made Sir Charles Court: I answered the questions on in opening up Western Australia to receive this accurately and completely yesterday. nuclear wastes. Mr BRYCE: I am quite happy to give the Mr Spriggs: The Premier mentioned the word Premier all the time he needs to answer my "profit" and away they go. question. Mr BRYCE: He said there is a big quid to be Sir Charles Court: You look at the answer. The made for future Western Australians if we turn answer was given yesterday, properly and Western Australia into a nuclear waste garbage completely. dump. [Wednesday, 11Ith April, 1979]49 489

Mr Sodenian: You are a twisted person. IHe ,_Mr Sodeman: Yes, if it solved the problems and meant a fortune in jobs. produced jobs; if it could be done safely, the way Sir Charles Court: Australia could be in a we want it to be done. commanding situation in the energy field in Mr BRYCE: The member for Pilbara would be respect of the whole world if we had the sense to happy then to have nuclear waste from Japan and act properly. Why not talk to people who know other countries dumped in the Pilbara? about it? I do not profess to have technical Mr Sodeman: No, 1did not say that. knowledge. Mr BRYCE: How. else are the people of this Several members interjected. State going to make the fortune, if it is not to The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Blaikie): I ask open the State on a commercial basis as a rubbish the House to come to order and suggest that if tip? members wish to interject-which is highly Mr Sodernan: We are not talking about your disorderly-they should do so from their own interpretation of the word "fortune". seats. Mr BRYCE: I will leave that for the judgment Mr Pearce: It is the Premier doing all the of the people who read Hansard, to those who interjecting. know the Premier and know how he thinks. I will The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The member leave it to them to decide how we would make a for Gosnells will keep order. fortune from burying nuclear waste in our geological backyard. Mr BRYCE: Western Australians should have learnt tonight for the first time-I was certainly Sir Charles Court: Talk about the correct unaware before this moment-that it was the technology of the thing. Government's policy, and the Premier's intention, Mr BRYCE: The Opposition is disgusted and to make Western Australia's geological backyard wants to dissociate itself from the Premier's available for waste dumping. Perhaps the Premier remarks. We will be doing this in the Pilbara and is prepared to elaborate a little more. It seems his in every electorate of Western Australia. The idea intention is to make Western Australia available of using Western Australia as a means of to other countries of the world to dump nuclear dumping waste from other parts of the world is waste products. H-e has said quite clearly tonight abhorrent to me and many other Western that there is a fortune to be made by future Australians. generations of Western Australians. Sir Charles Court: If it is to be stored, it is to I denounce absolutely that attitude. I make it be stored under proper safeguards. clear-and I am certain I speak for all members Mr BRYCE: The man who makes that on this side of the House-that we are statement is the man who said in this Parliament completely, utterly and totally opposed to the idea tonight that there are in existence at this time of Western Auistralia's ancient geological technically safe methods to dispose of nuclear structure being turned into a nuclear garbage tip wastes. In fact, there is no such method and I for Japan, or any other nation. challenge the Premier to name a reputable expert Sir Charles Court: You do not have the ability who says there is. to think beyond your nose or beyond today. Sir Charles Court: Tell me of anyone who has Mr T. H. Jones: World opinion is against it- suffered injury from the storage of waste during the 25 years the industry has been with us? Mr BRYCE: The Premier implied to us all that his real motivation was the big quid; the prospect Mr BRYCE: This brings into sharp focus how of money. narrow are the Premier's views. The nuclear industry is in its infancy. All the Premier can see Mr Sodeman: That is not true. in order to establish his case is the need for us to Mr BRYCE: What else does the word find whether some accident has occurred. Let me "fortune" mean? inform the Premier that when he says that all one Sir Charles Court: I was talking of the end use has to do is ind a stable piece of geological rock, of energy. dig a hole, and bury the waste- Mr BRYCE: The Premier said future Sir Charles Court: It is not as simple as that. generations of this State stand to make a fortune Mr BRYCE: Of course it is not. The thing that by being prepared to receive this rubbish. Would has scientists baffled at this time is a method to the member for Pilbara be happy to have the solve the problem of vitrifying the material into a nuclear waste dumped in his electorate? glass-like substance which will not deteriorate. It 490 490[ASSEMBLY] has been proven that the tremendous heat given implying it does not matter if every country in the off by the waste is causing the vitrified world has nuclear weapons? Are members substance to devitrify. It is possible a method will opposite saying that is a fine state of affairs? be round. But the Premier is not being dinkum Mr Sodeman: If you extended your argument. with this Parliament. He will not acknowledge we should not be mining iron ore to produce the that at this moment there is no safe method of steel. storing nuclear waste. Mr BRYCE: There seems to be an enormous That is one of the principal objections which we vacuum in the logic of some of the members on this side have to any suggestion from this opposite. First we had the Minister for Labour Government that we ought to be making plans and Industry liken the building of nuclear power and arrangements to build a nuclear power stations to driving motorcars. station. Mr O'Connor: I did not. There is one other very important aspect to this argument which causes objection from this Sir Charles Court: Don't distort things! side of the House. I find it hard to imagine why Mr BRYCE: Now we have the member for members opposite could be so insensitive to this Pilbara- ultimate danger. There is no decent and effective Sir Charles Court: You have your mates up method of preventing the proliferation of nuclear there who will report you. weapons throughout the world. Can members Mr BRYCE: -likening plutonium to steel! opposite glibly dismiss the threat to humanity Several members interjected. caused by the threat of widespread ownership of nuclear weapons? While they are aware of Mr BRYCE: Cannot the member for Pilbara this-possibly-they should surely be aware there realise there is a monumental difference in is no effective means of controlling the spread of magnitude and degree? the plutonium economy. Mr Sodenian: You are too narrow. It is no good Mr Spriggs: You know countries can get that talking to you! type of material without it being mined in Mr BRYCE: I can suggest, with respect, that it Australia. is time the Minister for Labour and Industry, the Mr BRYCE: The sleepy member for Darling member for Darling Range, and maybe the Range ought to be told that is what we are talking member for Pilbara, went back to the about. classroom- Mr Spriggs: You are not in school now; you are Mr O'Connor: If we had a teacher like you we in Parliament. would not learn anything anyway. Mr B , YCE: We are talking about nuclear Mr BRYCE: -and do their homework before power stations. they begin to proffer opinions in this place. Mr Spriggs: There is a saying about a man I have indicated I have pleasure in supporting among boys. the amendment because I am proud to say in this place at this time that I believe the member for Mr BRYCE: I am quite proud to be that. At Collie has been completely vindicated. The Brand the present time the safeguards that have been Government made a monstrous error of judgment, mentioned, the methods of supervising the influenced by the oil lobby in the 1960s. The production, and the control of stockpiling of Court Government appears as though it is about plutonium in those countries which already have to embark upon an error of judgment of similar nuclear reactors leave a great deal to be desired. magnitude. There is a significant amount of plutonium that One wonders just how much pressure some of disappears and becomes unaccountable every the nuclear reactor salesmen exert. It is well year. So there are chances that some of the more understood in Europe and the USA that millions unstable dictatorships in the world and tbe more of dollars have been spent in developing nuclear unstable democracies in the world could easily technology and that the French particularly, and acquire nuclear weapons. This is directly related the West Germans, are very keen to recoup some to the inadequacy and hopelessness of the present of the money outlayed in research costs. Those system of international control and supervision of countries are keen to sell nuclear reactors to Latin the production and distribution of plutonium. America, Australia, and any other country they While this is so, by their attitudes, members possibly can in order to recoup some of the money opposite seem to be quite happy to sit and shrug outlayed. So the Premier has come back from one their shoulders and say, "So what?" Are they of his commercial jaunts and announced to [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979J19 491

Western Australia that he has taken the bait, Mr MENSAROS: -and to the so-called hook, line and sinker and will make the arguments voiced during the debate. The arrangements. It is disgraceful the way the SEC amendment commenced by referring to the ill- has been used as a political pawn because many of conceived energy policies of the Government. the commission's respected engineers privately do Anyone in Australia should know that Western not approve of the idea. Australia was the first State in the Mr Mensaros: That is not so. Who are they? Commonwealth to announce its energy policies. In fact, not only did we announce them) but we Mr BRYCE: Would not the Minister like to put them in writing in a booklet, and in this way conduct a witch hunt and get after them? What earned a tremendous amount of commendation as opportunity would they have to defend was evident in the letters I have received. themselves? The amendment then goes on to state that as a Sir Charles Court: In all their talks with me, result- not one of them has opposed the idea. Mr T. H. Jones: What about the waste of Mr DRYCE: I conclude on the point that this money? subject has become a political football and there is no economic justification Or any other Mr MENSAROS: The honourable member justification for it in terms of the energy needs of should listen and be patient! Only once did I this State. interject when he was speaking! MR MENSAROS (Floreat-Minister for Fuel The amendment states that as a result of these and Energy) [9.33 p.m.]: It is not only the ill-conceived policies the population of Western prerogative, but indeed the duty and Australia is suffering because of increasing prices. responsibility, of the Opposition to criticise the Then it deals with nuclear energy. Government and its policies and indicate to the I would like to answer the arguments in three Parliament and the electors of Western categories; that is, firstly the conversion of oil- Australia- generated plants to coal, and the associated costs; Mr T. H. Jones: With good reason! secondly, the policy regarding coal exploration and exploitation; and, thirdly, nuclear power Mr Bryce- Yes-$87 million-worth! generation. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Blaikie): Order! Mr T. H. Jones: What about the conversion to Order! oil at Kwinana? Mr MENSAROS: -that it has a better Mr MENSAROS: That was the first one if the alternative policy. However, when I listened to the honourable member would listen and let me talk. Opposition's criticisms, not only in this debate, but also yesterday during a similar debate, I could The argument concerning the decision on the not-and I doubt whether any other member oil-Fired generation plant being made in the late, could-detect any possible suggestion concerning or middle 1960s is completely refuted if one an alternative policy to those pursued by the considers the fact that at that time there was a Government. tremendo 'us saving in capital expenditure because the capital cost of the oil-fired units was much Mr Bryce: The member for Collie gave them to cheaper than the coal-fired units. The fuel was you. cheaper. No-one suggested, not even the present Mr MENSAROS: 1 cannot recall his giving Opposition, that the OPEC decision would alter any. this situation by 1973. Mr T. H. Jones: I said we had plenty of coal. Despite what the Deputy Leader of the Be fair. Opposition said-and I do not know where he Several members interjected. received his information-about the Western Australian Government having gone against the The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! main world consensus of opinion, quite the Mr MENSAROS: Unfortunately instead of contrary is the situation. He should realise that all this we had to listen to a very old and the utilities around the world at that time decided consequently-perhaps this is an advantage-a on oil-fired units. Western Australia did not make well and publicly - rehearsed discourse. the decision on its own. Parallel decisions were Nevertheless I will be patient and will reply to the made all over the world. contentions in the amendment- Mr T. H. Jones: They were not. America was Mr Bryce: Very condescending of you! going back to coal- 492 492[ASSEMBLY)

Mr MENSAROS: The member for Collie Opposition, was ill-conceived. It was the right one cannot prove that. which was made at that time. Mr T. H. Jones: -and you know it. You Let me deal with the other aspect mentioned by cannot get away with that. America was swinging the member for Collie which was coal exploration to coal. and exploitation. Despite the fact that the Deputy Mr MENSAROS: When we talk about- Leader of the Opposition, by way of interjection, suggested he had an alternative policy, I could not Mr T. H. Jones: Talk about facts.' find any in his speech or that of the member for Mr MENSAROS: -conversion, the member Collie. He complained because he said the for Collie repeats his argument. He now talks Government thinks we do not have enough coal about an additional outlay of $40 million. and-correct me if!I am wrong-that even in the Mr T. H. Jones: That is right. most extreme situation we would use no more Mr MENSAROS: I would like members to than 10 million tonnes a year. consider how much truth there is in that. The fact Mr T. H. Jones: I said that if we used 10 is that the conversion of the two large plants has million tonnes a year we would have enough for been concluded. The second plant has been 40. years on your figures. not mine. commissioned and is operating well on trial runs. The first is out of commission because of the Mr MENSAROS: The member (or Collie has strikes around Christmas time. not taken into consideration the fact that the Government wants other industries to use coal as Several members interjected. well until other sources of energy are available. I Mr MENSAROS: Those are the facts. As a do not know whether he took into consideration result, the whole conversion cost was $34 million the growth factor, but supposing we take-- which was about 7 per cent-or $2.5 Mr T. H. Jones: I mentioned it, if you had million-cheaper than the estimate which was listened! approved by the Government in 1975. Mr MENSAROS: The member for Collie We must bear in mind that the saving the on cannot listen! building of the original power plant because it was based on oil instead of coal was about $12 Mr T. H. Jones: You asked me a question! million when it was completed in 1970. If we also Mr MENSAROS: I said that the member (or take into consideration the fact that the value of Collie- money today is different compared with its value Mr T. H. Jones: I cannot understand you! I in 1970 and take, for example, wages- cannot hear you or understand you, and neither Mr T. H. Jones: Mention production costs! can anyone else over hero! That is our trouble! I Mr MENSAROS: When the honourable do not know what you are talking about! That is member was talking I interrupted him only once! everyone's trouble with you! He cannot listen to me! He cannot content himself Mr MENSAROS: The'situation is that even if by listening! He had unlimited time but I have we use his example, he does not take into only 45 minutes! consideration the fact that once we build the last As I was saying, $12 million was saved at that coal-fired generating unit, it has an economic life time because of the decision. I leave it to during which it has to be fed with coal, and that a members to estimate how much that $12 million nuclear plant cannot be built in one or two years. is worth today. One comparison is wages which Therefore the argument in his speech regarding have trebled between 1970 and 1979. Therefore, I the availability of coal for 40 years, and the fact woulif say that the $14 million today which was that we have enough time in which to build a -the cost of the conversion of the two units would nuclear reactor in the 40th year is wrong. - - not be any more in value than the amount which Mr T. H. Jones: I said there was 5 000 million was saved at that time. The saving in fuel from tonnes. now on would be approximately 80000 tonnes a year which means an amount of about $6 million Mr MENSAROS: The honourable member to $8 million depending on the different uses. This will find if he looks at Hansard that at one stage means the amortisation of the capital expenditure he said 500 000 million tonnes. connected with the conversion will be achieved in Mr T. H. Jones: I said 5 000 million. It is 40 about four years. years on your figure, not mine. I think I have dispelled the argument The SPEAKER: Order! I prevail upon the concerning the decision which, according to the member for Collie to reduce his interjections. (Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979J 4939

Mr MENSAROS: Therefore it can be clearly The honourable member's next argument was demonstrated that any responsible Government the emotional one in relation to nuclear power which is looking to the supply of power to the. and its safety. Let me say that nobody has ever public for domestic and industrial purposes and is claimed that any industrial enterprise or exercise looking for industrial development in this State is absolutely safe. However, it has never been must ensure that energy is available. In view of emphasised that power generation from the resources in Collie, and assuming there are no conventional sources has tremendous dangers. differences in the figures quoted, the last coal- The best example of the way this matter is being based power station must be built at a time when looked at occurred on Monday or Tuesday last it can be fed with coal for its full economic life, week, when the news items from Harrisburg, which is between 35 and 40 years; and the other Pennsylvania, were at their height. The first three existing coal-fired plants must be fed until they pages of The West Australian newspaper that become obsolete and have to be demolished. morning and the Daily News the evening before Therefore, it is not a case of the SEC not were spread with headlines, stories about agreeing to the nuclear power plant proposal. The Harrisburg, and all sorts of fear-mongering about SEC very responsibly acknowledges the fact that what could happen. Rut what did happen? by about the middle of the 1990s there should be Nobody diod. nobody was inconvenienced, and the an alternative energy source. Had the Opposition containment system worked. suggested any feasible, viable, possible alternative In the very same newspapers on the same day, energy source, the Government would have been on about page 6. there appeared a small one- quite happy to consider it; but no alternative column article of about two inches reporting that suggestion was made. We had only the old- 10 people had died in a coalmine at Goldburg, fashioned, well-rehearsed criticism. Lancashire. Nobody took any notice of that. The Contrary to what the honourable member said, Press and the other media did not want to take the Government had very well thought-out and any notice of it. flat is emotion: when people die properly developed policies to develop the Collie it does not matter, but possible dangers which coalfields. They culminated recently in the. have not happened, and fortunately did not signing of the first agreement with one of the happen, are interesting. producers. During the Labor Government's three In the very same newspapers many pages years in office I did not hear anything about its further on, there was an article stating that four having thought of writing an agreement between counties in the United States had been evacuated any of the producers and the Government. because of the derailment of a train carrying The agreement is the company's required poisonous gas. Has anyone heard of that again? security so that it knows it has a long-term Has anyone talked about it? That was an market and that it can borrow money and invest inconvenience which actually happened, not a in new plant and equipment. potential inconvenience which did not happen but which got all the headlines. The member for Collie would know that the present extraction rate on the deep mines is only That is the way emotions are used and fears are about 35 per cent. The very optimistic built up, instead of realising that no industrial calculations say it might go up to 60 per cent, but exercise in the history of mankind can be claimed that could not be achieved without sinking in to be absolutely safe. There are risks in capital or without loans for part of the capital, everything. All we can say is that based on past and that is precisely what we have done in the experience and scientific documentation, when it agreement, giving security to the company after comes to human lives and danger nuclear power the company had obliged itself, through signing generation is safer than any of the conventional the agreement, to make proposals to the power generation methods, taking into account Government for development and to do the mining, usage, and the rest of it. A few accidents required exploration. The Government is now have occurred in nuclear power generation but not obliged to give the company the mining tenements one person has yet died in commercial nuclear upon which it can do that. This is expressed in the power plant production. We must take all those agreement, as members will see when the Bill is factors into consideration. presented to the House. Balanced development The member for Collie typically ignored some will take place between open-cut and deep mining, of the facts when he spoke about the change of so that the coal will be mined according to the Gbvernment in Sweden. He ignored the fact that best technical knowledge available and we will since then in a referendum Sweden has supported have the largest recovery from the resources. nuclear power by a large majority. 494 494ASSEMBLY]

Mr T. H. Jones: What did the Senate party do? should allow him to do that without continual You know what it did. interjection, Mr MENSAROS: Does the honourable Mr T. H-. Jones: I had a few when I was member want me, to reply to his so-called speaking-when you were out. unfortunately. arguments? The next point is the question of cost. The SPEAKER: That may have been the case, I was accused of bringing in obsolete cost factors. but I now ask for your co-operation in allowing As I said in reply to a question, in the latest the Minister to speak. report, dated February, 1979, of Durmah Australia Ltd.-an internal report to the SEC Mr T. H. Jones: You are asking me to give from a large international Organisation which something I did not get from the Government. Is that advises on nuclear power-it was stated among a fair proposition? other things that, comparing all the price factors The SPEAKER: Order! related to a nuclear generating plant in Australia, Mr MENSAROS: I can give the undertaking it will still cost around $600 or $800 Australian that on account of the good energy policies of the per kilowatt. So it was not old information. It is Government the difference in tariffs will shrink. I contained in the latest report submitted internally am quite sure we will be able to contain tariffs to the SEC. There is no argument that if we build better than most of the other States of Australia, in 1995, by that time the value of money will be due to the policies of the SEC partly in relation to different-everybody knows that-but when we the conversion about which I spoke at length, make an estimation we must express it in terms of explaining the capital expenditure and the savings the value or money at the time the estimation is which will occur, and partly in relation to various. prepared. methods which were introduced by the SEC. some Coming back to the motion itself, having dealt of them on a large scale and some which may be with all the arguments I will say a few words claimed to be on a small scale, but which reduced about the so-called unnecessary hardship created the cost factor. Such is the new policy of joint by steeply increasing bills. meter reading with the Metropolitan Water Board which It is a fact that the operations in Western will be recommended to the Australia have been and are more costly than Government and no doubt adopted by it. those in other States. I have often stated the Many of these things have come about through reasons for this, and I will repeat them briefly. the financial policy and the loan raising of the The main reasons are the non-availability of State Energy Commission Of Western Australia; indigenous fuel in Western Australia; the the only utility in Australia which has had its enormous distances which commit us to building loans quickly and fully subscribed. I received a transmission lines which in comparison with the message today that the last $12 million loan was generating capacity are very much larger than fully subscribed within a very short period of those in Victoria and New South Wales; the time. The efficiency of this organisation has endeavour of this Government to connect almost already contributed to the fact that the difference everyone in remote areas to electricity, and less between tariffs in the other States and Western than I per cent of potential customers are not yet Australia-based, as I said, on the natural connected; and the policy of the Government to handicaps-will possibly fairly soon be much have equal charges in the metropolitan area and smaller, and hopefully it will ultimately. in remote areas where power is supplied. They are disappear. all the factors. But I guarantee one thing: that The Opposition amendment referred to ill- precisely on account of the good policies of the conceived policies. Everyone acknowledges that Government and not the bad ones- Western Australia has been bold in the energy Mr T. H-. Jones: What about the drilling field. We were the first to come out with the bes.t programme? policies; we have been the leaders in the Mr MENSAROS: Can the honourable Commonwealth. Let me mention, for instance, the member not listen? Solar Energy Research Institute. No State has preceded usin this field. Indeed, others have tried Mr T. H-. Jones: When are you going to do to tag along behind and they have endeavoured to some drilling? Tell us about that. do the same thing with renewable energy The SPEAKER: Order! The member for Collie research. However, I do not think any other State has moved an amendment and the Minister in would have given so much monetary support to an charge of the relevant portfolio is making his industry and science Organisation in proportion to speech in reply. I believe the member for Collie its population as Western Australia has done. Our (Wednesday, 11Ith April, 1979J 4959 contribution to this research has amounted to Mr MENSAROS: -he knows that a study has 5600 000 in the current financial year. been undertaken in Collie, and that Mr Watkins I would like to refer also to the RAPSI asked the delegation to speak to him. The project-the Remote Areas Power Supply honourable member knows that this is not just pie Investigation. Again this is a very positive and in the sky. On the initiative of our Government, practical approach to the power problems in this the Commonwealth came to the party and it will State. By the end of this year we will be using supply the technical underpinning- solar and wind energy for generating electricity in Mr T. IH. Jones: Did I not advocate that last remote areas. This is not merely idle research; it is year? reasonably practical considering the cost of Mr MENSAROS: As I said before, the transporting fuel to these remote areas. Opposition can only criticise. It has not put The Ord scheme is now being studied, together forward any good alternative suggestion. with the Northern Territory- Mr T. H. Jones: I advocated it. Mr B. T. Burke: That is rubbish and you know Mr MENSAROS: I would like to close on the it is. That isa publicity stunt. note on which I commenced, I am very sorry that Mr MENSAROS: Is it? I say to the member the Opposition can only put Forward criticism, for Balcatta that he should make a note of his and very old-fashioned criticism at that. It has not comments and come back with this in a year's put- forward any reasonably positive suggestions. time and then in another year's time. Even with the shortest explanation, the benefits of Mr B. T. Burke: We will, and we will haunt the Government's policies are so apparent that you with this one. The problems of supplying there is no alternative but to reject this Darwin-for God's sake! We will be back year amendment. after year with this, as with your conversion. MR D. T. BURKE (Balcatta) ( 10.06 p.mJ: The Mr MENSAROS: The studies will be prepared Minister, as usual, is petulant and patronising'in with the aid of the Snowy Mountains Authority, his reply to debate, and in a moment I will deal and the Commonwealth Government is prepared with the major points he dealt with: However, to co-operate unless the scheme is not feasible. firstly it is relevant to point out that the Premier This will be a very big scheme, and it will be of tonight is supported by some fairly weak reeds in advantage to the Kimberley as well as to the what has become his position on nuclear power Northern Territory. and, specifically, on nuclear power generation in Then we have the Pilbara integration scheme Western Australia. When the Deputy Leader of which was entirely initiated by the State the Opposition put so ably to each of those Government. The Loan Council agreed to lend members to whom he addressed the question the SI111 million to have this balanced scheme in the proposition that they should have sited within Pilbara to save generation costs. Rather than each their electorates a nuclear power station, not one generating plant having a reasonable surplus was able to give an unequivocal "Ye' to the capacity that is not being utilised, the idea is to question. combine the plants to balance out the capacity. At By a process of elimination, it seems quite clear present the tariff for domestic use of electricity in that the nuclear power station will be sited in the Pilbara is cheaper than the costs to generate Nedlands because the Premier will be the only electricity, and hopefully this integration scheme one prepared to bare his shoulders and take what will enable us to effect economies which will is coming over this issue, an issue that is rapidly ultimately benefit all the customers. turning against the Government in terms of I would like to refer to the customers advisory popularity. service which is part and parcel-no matter how Sir Charles Court: We will race up to it. small-of the energy policy. Many people have Mr B. T. BURKE: Given that situation, I think obtained advice from this service. it is appropriate for the Opposition to seek an The SEC converted 18 of its trucks to use LPG. assurance from the Premier. Given the current Has any other utility or State in Australia levels of technology, is the Premier prepared to conducted such an experiment? I could go on and give an assurance to this Parliament and to the on in this way. Even in regard to the Collie public that he will not permit contracts for the coalfields, although the member for Collie will, export of uranium if those contracts involve this not accept anything that is positive- State in accepting From those countries to whom Mr T. H. Jones: Be fair! the uranium is sold, nuclear waste in return? 496 496[ASSEMBLYI

Sir Charles Court: There is no question of those gall to ask the member for Dianella if there was contracts dealing with nuclear waste in return. So one issue he had not dealt with. That is like let us deal with things in the proper sequence, in Goebbels: tell a big lie, leave out the most the proper way. Don't be a smart aleck. important issue, and then ask someone if there is Mr B. T. BURKE: As usual, the assurance is anything that has not been dealt with. It is not forthcoming, and the Premier sidesteps the unbelievable that the Minister could leave out the question. question of the disposal of waste and then ask the member Given the present levels of technology, is he for Dianella if he could think of one issue prepared to assure the public that he will not that he-the Minister-had not.- dealt with. He did not allow Western Australian exporters of uranium to deal with the biggest issue of all, and the write contracts that involve this State's reason he did not deal with it was that it is the acceptance of nuclear waste once the uranium is most difficult. used? The Premier has been unable by interjection, and the Sir Charles Court: I tell you it is not involved. Minister has been unable by contribution, We are exporting yellow cake-not the processed to give this House an assurance on the question of material. nuclear waste. The Premier is not even able or willing to assure the public that we will not permit Mr B. T. BURKE: Once again, if it is not companies to write contracts that involve this involved, the Premier should give the assurance. State in the acceptance of nuclear waste. If the Sir Charles Court: I am telling you it is not Premier says that is not pertinent at this time, involved. What are you griping about? then the assurance should be easily made and Mr B. T. BURKE: Is the Premier prepared- readily forthcoming; but it is neither of those things. Sir Charles Court: You are the Perry Mason around this place. We are sick and tired of you. Let us consider the contribution of the Why don't you get a bit normal for a change? Minister, who so easily vacates his seat when it comes time for him to answer the wild statements Mr B. T. BURKE: The Premier will not give he has made. an assurance that he will He spoke firstly about the cost to not allow contracts to be the State of the written in the terms that we will accept the conversion of the Kwinana generation capacity. nuclear waste. If that is not an issue, the assurance should be forthcoming readily. He politely and easily omitted the question of the deferment of the expansion of Muja, which Sir Charles Court: My position is clear in cost $40) million. Hansard. He easily and eagerly left out the question of the cost of power generation, Mr B. T. BURKE: The Premier's position is which at Kwinana is three times the cost of the clear in 15 different places, but the problem is generation at Collie. HeIeasily and eagerly turned that he gives 15 different opinions, each one to inflation as his solace for the escalation of a adopted as public opinion changes, each one $12 million bungle into a $87 million impost on adopted as he is confronted with a conflicting the people of this State. How can the Premier so expert opinion. easily accept that proposition when there are If we move on to the contribution of the 47 000 unemployed people? How far would that Minister, it is passing strange that during his $87 million go towards the provision of the entire contribution he did not once refer to the facilities and the basic needs of life for those question of nuclear waste- 47 000 people? Mr T. H. Jones: He completely avoided it. Sir Charles Court: You are distorting the Mr B. T. BURKE: -as though that was not problem in your usual fashion. something that exercised the minds of the Mr B. T. BURKE: The Minister attempted to Opposition and the public. Yet time and time minimise and dismiss lightly his own bungling by again it has been brought home by public saying that other countries have made the same comment, by parliamentary debate, and by expert mistake at the same time. That is Mo reason for opinion and contribution that the storage of the Minister to make a mistake. He said his nuclear waste is the matter which has most mistake could be excused simply because other preoccupied the minds of people concerned with people also made it. That is not acceptable to the the dangers of this whole issue. Opposition. Notwithstanding that, the Minister chose not Once again, regardless of what the Minister on one occasion to deal with the question of says, the member for Collie has been proved quite nuclear waste. Then he had the gumption and the correct. [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979]19 497

Sir Charles Court: What about the time when .The Minister was neither convincing nor the member for Collie tried to convince the people plausible when he talked about the timetabling of of Western Australia that there was not as much the construction of power generating facilities and coal in Collie as the Brand Government said there the amount of coal that remains in the Collie was? coalfields, and the need to timetable the Mr T. H-. Jones: That was based on the construction of facilities, taking into account the Marshall report. life of those fields. The member for Collie has competently and ably demonstrated time and time Sir Charles Court: You said we were Over- again that the life span of the Collic coalfields optimistic. that the Minister used in his argument is not the Mr T. H-. Jones: You were hoodwinked. The Correct one. The timetable upon which that lire General Manager of the SEC pulled the wool over span is based is also incorrect. your eyes. Yet the Minister persists in doing this time and The SPEAKER: Order! The House will come time again simply to try to push the people of this to order. State into believing that there is a power Mr B. T. BURKE: The member for Collie has generation crisis-a crisis which does not exist very ably and competently defined in this place a and will not exist while we possess the sorts of mistake of major proportions that has been made reserves of which the member for Collie has by this Government and by its predecessors. spoken, and a crisis which will not exist if this Mr Mensaros: It is no wonder he does it so ably Government is prepared to adopt those procedures when he repeats it all the time. and policies which I will outline in a moment as positive steps towards the conservation of power Mr T. H. Jones: Would the Minister use a and the recognition of coal as a major resource. microphone so that we can hear him? Before doing that, let us consider another very Mr B. T. BURKE: As far as the Opposition is blatant example of the Minister's concerned, the situation, the mistake, the error misrepresentation. He talked about the great outlined by the member for Collie bear repetition steps this Government has taken in respect of the time and time again. It is interesting to note that Collie coal producers, but he ignored completely the former Premier, in his memoi rs, the fact that the last Labor Government offered acknowledged the disservice he did to Collie at long-term contracts to the same producers; and the behest of the then Minister for Industrial the producers did not want them. Now the Development. He acknowledged the mistake that Minister stands up in this place and says, "We now this Premier and this Government attempt to have offered long-termn contracts; that is a positive deny. step forward on the part of our Government", and Sir Charles Court: It was not done at my he ignores the fact that this side has gone twice to behest. Get your facts right. the place he is going. Mr Jamieson: It was. We will deal with that. I Mr Mensaros: But you Were unsuccessful had too many meetings with you not to know because you did not offer proper protection. otherwise. Mr T. H. Jones: You made the blue, and you Sir Charles Court: It was a Government policy know it. decision which was part of an election Mr B. T. BURKE: Talking about the nuclear programme. power generation aspects of this amendment, it is Mr B. T. BURKE: On the question of the interesting to note that the Minister trots out the conversion of generation facilities to oil and the same time-worn argument about the dangers capital cost and saving in which the State was involved in other operations. He was joined by the involved as a result of that decision to convert, the Minister for Labour and Industry who, in his Minister's argument fails to hold water. It is not faintly ridiculous manner, spoke about whether convincing either in its content or in its detail. It we know of a safe way of driving motor vehicles; is not convincing in its lack of information about and he implied that if we do not know of a safe the cost of the product which was to be converted way of driving motor vehicles then we should not into power. It is not convincing in its lack of bother trying to talk about nuclear power acknowledgment about the deferment of the generation. If that is not a self-evidently expansion of Muja in an area which is a much ridiculous argument, I do not know what is. It is more efficient producer of power than is the area self-evidently ridiculous, because it is a little less which was converted. subtle than the pronouncements of the Minister 498. 498(ASSEMBLY] for Fuel and Energy when he spoke about The Minister seems to claim in his strange way coalmine accidents and derailments., that the Harrisburg happening is something We are not in the throes of a debate on the which supports his own position. Of course it does adoption or the implementation of a system of not. The Minister does ill to talk down the mover coalmining or of train driving or of car driving; and the seconder of this amendment with his own we are talking about nuclear power and its idle arguments because when they are examined adoption as a means of the generation of closely they are found not to hold water. They iire electricity in this State, and the implementation intellectually dishonest and naive and are an of the policies of this Government. That is why insult on a personal basis to the member for the Opposition has a right, an obligation, and a Collie. duty to point out to the Government the Mr Mensaros: When are you going to come to shortcomings of its policies; and if that is not good an alternative policy? enough argument in the Minister's eyes then let Mr B. T. BURKE: In just a moment brother; him turn his mind to the potential dangers hang on. I wish to touch briefly again on the involved in the policy we are about to adopt. Let question of the conversion to coal-firing of the him name one coalmining accident that has power generation facilities in this State, and ask forced the detailed planning of the evacuation of the Minister why the perjunit cost of fuel used in one million people. What other mining operation these facilities was such a secret for such a long holds out the potential of such disaster and time. If it represented so much of a saving to the damage? How can an accident in a coalmine State, why was the Government not boasting maim, injure, and deform children born three about it? If we were leading the way in producing generations in the future? How can dangerous car cheaper power more efficiently, why was the drivers or train drivers cause accidents that Government not boasting about it? produce cancers in millions of people or produce Mr Mensaros: For precisely the same reason nuclear waste which remains lethal for hundreds, your Government maintained that so-called thousands, and millions of years? secrecy; namely, it honoured a iommercial That is the idle sort of intellectually naive agreement. argument this Government and this Minister Mr B. T. BURKE: At the same time, the throw up time and time again. Yet the Minister Minister for Industrial Development says that in says he has answered all the arguments. He did the mid-1960s, it was impossible to predict what not once mention the subject of nuclear waste. would happen to the price of oil and the reserves Not only did he not mention the danger; he also of oil controlled mainly by countries in the Middle tried to equate the operation of a nuclear power East. Of course it was not impossible! The generation facility and all it involves with the Government was quite wrong. It bungled in extraction of coal from a mine in Lancashire and failing to predict what naturally would occur and then insultingly told the Opposition it did not care what was bound to happen. When what was about the deaths of coalminers in Lancashire; it bound to happen did occur, the responsibility cared only about deaths at nuclear power should have been sheeted home straight to the generating stations. That is a gross insult to the Government because that was where the member for Collie, who spent years and years of responsibility lay. his life fighting for better conditions for men the It is the Government's job to care for the Minister only reads about; it is an insult to welfare of the people of this State, and to predict anybody, and the Minister should be thoroughly with all the expert knowledge at its disposal the ashamed of himself. most efficient means to implement economic I turn now to the Minister's further arguments. policy. In this matter, the Government failed and When considering the Minister's exposition of the its failure has come home to roost in a State happenings at Harrisburg, the Opposition is led to where today tremendous hardship is suffered by believe that accident supports the Minister's many members of the community-hardship contention, because he boasts that no-one was which could be alleviated and overcome by the injured. No-one knows who was injured; no-one availability of funds which have been so knows how many people will suffer in the future wastefully squandered on the conversion of our because of this accident. No-one knows whether power generation facilities to coal-firing. the multi-billion dollar plant will ever It is true to say that Australia's oil production recommence operations. No-one knows the effect will decline within the next few years and it is this accident will have on the lives of the people equally true to say that the one certain thing living around that plant. about this whole debate is the diminishing supply [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979149 499 of oil in the world. At the same time, as far as Mr B. T. BURKE: I am talking about the members on this side are concerned, the story is windfall profits from already discovered fields, not one which has been painted correctly by the not about the effect of parity pricing on fields oil companies, which represent such vested which may be discovered in the future. interests in this situation. Mr Mensaros interjected. Let me refer briefly to the question of parity Mr b. T. BURKE: Is the Minister dull? With pricing. I can see some very sound arguments for due respect to the Minister, it is obvious there is parity pricing. At the same time, however, is there no guarantee the windfall profits which have any member on the Government benches who can resulted from the imposition of parity pricing on honestly say the windfall profits that parity the production from already discovered deposits pricing has thrust Into the pockets of the oil of oil will be spent on oil exploration. The companies will be spent on oil exploration? Can Minister may say that exploration has increased the Minister give us that guarantee? and it may be argued that this is a result of the Mr Menssros: It is being spent. windfall profits and is financed by the money which makes up those profits, but there is no Mr B. T. BURKE: Of course he cannot! guarantee. Mr Mensaros: I am giving you that guarantee; It is just as valid to argue that parity pricing of it is being spent in that area. Where else is so itself begets increased exploration and that the much money being spent on exploration than in increased exploration we are now witnessing is a Australia at the present time? You just ignore t he result not of the profits accruing to the already facts. discovered deposits of oil but to the profits which Mr B. T. BURKE: The Minister's naivety is will accrue to future discoveries. That is the whole astounding. point of the exercise. No guarantee was sought or Mr Mensaros: You simply pick out words to insisted upon by the Federal Government or gain headlines. suggested by this State Government. It would seem to me there is a responsibility on this State Mr B. T. BURKE: Hubble bubble, bubble Government, on behalf of the people of Western bubble! If the Minister will just listen for a Australia, to insist on such a guarantee. momnent- The truth is that the Western Australian Mr Mensaros: That is what you are skilled in; community and the Australian public have been you do not debate the question sensibly, you ripped off for years and years by oil companies simply use headline words. which have held Governments to ransom, oil Mr B. T. BURKE: If the Minister is able to companies which have refused to tell prove parity pricing ensures that the windfall Governments of their cost structures and which profits which result to oil companies are claim they do not even have the information the themselves spent on additional oil exploration, I Government seeks from time to time. The public am quite happy to pause. has been ripped off with the connivance of Mr Mensaros: I can prove that the money is Governments which have not sought the being used in this area. information which was so elemental; they have been ripped off by oil companies and Mr B. T. BURKE: Do not interject! I am Governments acting in collusion, to ensure the prepared to pause in My remarks and let the cheaper fuel prices of which we were once so Minister tell everybody. The Minister can go proud now have become a part of history. ahead. I have not heard the Minister speaking out Mr Mensaros: A large part of it is spent in that against the cost of fuel and the increase in petroll direction. prices. He has been remarkably silent on that Mr B. T. BURKE: A large part of it now, is it? question. Mr Mensaros: You said you would listen to me. In regard to the dangers associated with Nowhere else in the world is there such a measure nuclear power generation, it is only necessary to of exploration. Perhaps the member for Balcatta refer to the two Fox reports, which, are the most would prefer a policy which meant the company authoritative documents on this issue available which risked its capital in oil exploration was not within Australia to see there are a number of allowed to reap the Profits. If that policy were areas and causes for concern. In the first report. followed, we would never get oil exploration. That at page 151, the following statement appears- was amply proved during the term of the Whitlam A Commissioner of the US Atomic Energy Government. Commission has stated that the development 500 500ASSEMBLY)

of a blackmarket in plutonium is We applaud the funding of the unit; we likely .., numerous breaches of security in applaud its establishment; but we do not applaud nuclear installations have been recorded. the guise under which the Minister takes credit. At page 153, the following appears- As I have mentioned previously, the fundamental problem racing this country is the location of an A terrorist team could, if conditions favoured them, construct a very destructive alternative to oil and the conservation of energy device. as it exists at present. One of the major points to realise is that energy use patterns are very slow to At page 155, it states as follows- change. The Government, when it talks about The Commission was informed of time-tabling power generation facilities and their numerous incidents where nuclear materials construction ought more profitably to be talking had been stolen or lost or simply could not be about time-tabling methods by which it hopes to accounted for. bring about a change in the consumption pattern At page 159, the following statement appears- as far as energy is concerned on the part of the Australian public. An attempt by even a small well trained and armed group to take over a nuclear The first and the most viable, the most installation could have a good chance of valuable. the most possible, and the most positive success.-.. way in which this Government and this Opposition can work towards providing sufficient The evidence indicates that the risks are power'for the future generations of the State is to presently real and Will tend to increase with adopt and employ a policy of conservation. The the further spread of nuclear technology. famous Ford Foundation energy policy study said As far as other aspects of the question are that it is cheaper to save a watt of energy than it concerned, 1 will quote one or two references from is to produce a watt of energy. the second Fox report. At page 320 of the second Mr Pearce: Six times cheaper. Fox report we read- Mr B. T. BURKE: Six times cheaper. If the No Overseas country has an absolute need Minister wishes us to'deal in detail with the policy for our uranium. he should have formulated long ago, let us take up On page 6 of the first report- the question of solar .beating units and the policy We understand that it is unlikely that that the Australian Labor Party put forward four there can be production from any of the years ago to subsidise householders who are mines we have mentioned before 1980. prepared to install solar hot water systems. The purpose of that subsidy Then on page 31 of the First report-and this would be not only to really gives the key to what we should be conserve energy but also to promote employment in considering in discussing nuclear energy- an industry that is largely Western Australian-an industry that is exporting its . . ... The developing countries with products to other countries which have recognised market economies which accounted for the value of solar heating. nearly 50% of the world's population, Why will not this Government commit itself to consumed only 10% of total energy that? Why will the Government not consider consumption. subsidising householders who are- prepared to Therein lies the seed; therein lies the essence of insulate their homes? That is another policy of the present dilemma, the present failure of this the Australian Labor Party. That is another Government. practice of the English Government. That is Regardless of what the Minister says-and another fuel-saving, fuel-conserving step. That is there was only one matter of substance he spoke another employment-producing policy that this of when talking about positive alternatives-this Minister can look at. However, he is too busy Government is guilty of neglecting proper funding criticising the Opposition for criticising the and the enunciation of a proper policy of energy Government, and in so doing he is doing exactly conservation in the State of Western Australia. what he is accusing the Opposition of doing. The Minister's one claim to fame during his long The second of the alternatives that the Minister tirade was that the solar energy research unit was should consider is the generation of liquid gaseous established by his Government. However, that fuel alternatives. The immediately available was a policy of the Australian Labor Party and options include the liquification and gasification Government before that Minister even took office. of coal. The Minister criticised the Opposition for HeIclaims credit for that! not putting forward positive alternatives, and then [Wednesday, I Ith April, 1979150 501 did not mention any himself. He spoke about activities, his Government's progress in all of some high-fangled, way out scheme, with the these matters. Of course he did not outline them. Premier shooting from the hip in announcing He has simply criticised the Opposition for not some policy of providing power to Darwin. and referring to positive alternatives. presumably Timor, Indonesia, Calcutta, Bombay, The other alternative, and perhaps the more and Rome! interesting one, is the use of low-grade solar Mr Mensaros: Is liquification of gas a policy heating: That subject can be explored at length. you are putting forward if you were the The Opposition has put forward positive Government? alternatives. The Minister has failed to make a Mr B. T. BURKE: That power would come positive answer to the case put forward by the from the Ord River scheme. Everybody knows member for Collie and the Deputy Leader of the that that scheme is not a goer, and it will not be a Opposition. The Premier has failed to guarantee goer. This is an attempt by the Government to try to the public that he will not, in contracts to be to resurrect the biggest white elephant, the most written for the export of uranium, involve us in expensive white elephant to which Sir Charles the acceptance of waste for storage that cannot be Court has ever put his name. done safely. Mr Mensaros: Is that your policy if you become The Minister's answer was less than the Government-the liquification of coal for the satisfactory. The Premier's position continues to alternative energy? Is that your policy? be so. Mr B. T. BURKE: I asked the Minister once MR SKIDMORE (Swan) [10.38 p.m.]: I rise to before: Is he dull? My statement was this- support the amendment moved by the member for Mr Mensaros: Is that your policy? Collie. Mr B. T. BURKE: I will answer that question I would like to remind myself, and I would like if the Minister will be quiet for a moment; I am to remind those members who were in the House talking about investigation of the alternatives- when the Minister said that there had not been Mr Mensaros: investigation is going on. I am one death from a nuclear reactor accident, that an asking you: Is that your policy? accident took place at an Idaho reactor which has been documented by the Department of Energy, Mr B. T. BURKE: If investigation is going on, which is the department in the United States of then the Minister should not criticise the America to which I will refer. I wanted to inform Opposition for suggesting that it should proceed. the Minister at this stage that it is my intention to That is what we are doing. We are only pointing deal with that matter SO he will not be caught out that the Minister did not mention it. unawares. Perhaps it is well that I deal with it Mr Mensaros: Not pie in the sky in 100 years' first, in case he leaves. time. It has to be something for 1995. If you can I am going to read a short article so that the supplement nuclear energy with liquified coal by essential part of it will not be distorted by my 1995, and you prove that that can be done, it interpretation or summary of it. would be an alternative; but of course you cannot do this because it is pie in the sky. The Department of Energy claims that no workers have had any commercial reactor Mr B. T. BURKE: The Minister asked for accidents; and it is quick to point out that there positive alternatives. We have pointed out one are fewer accidents in the entire nuclear industry which should be-under investigation. The Minister than there are in the coal industry. That is the has been sharply critical and then he has argument that the Minister used, and that is conceded that investigation is proceeding. being used in other places by the Department of Mr Mensaros: The investigation is proceeding. Energy in the United States of America. I quote Mr B. T. BURKE: One of the other from the article as follows- alternatives is the use of liquid petroleum gas as a However, accidents to nuclear workers can transport fuel. have terrible consequences. People who know Mr Mensaros: I ask about that, too. the story of the AEC reactor SL-1 at Idaho Mr B. T. BURKE: The use of methanol as a Falls, Idaho, cannot forget the details. transport fuel, and the less encouraging [ trust members are not too squeamish. They may generation of ethanol from plants, algae, waste, not like to be told some of the terrible truths of and other biological matter, are other what happened after this nuclear accident. alternatives. It would be helpful to the Parliament Perhaps they should leave the House if they are if the Minister would outline his Government's too squeamish. To continue- 502 502[ASSEMBLY]

SI-I was a small reactor belonging to a reactor control rod had run through his groin gigantic AEC testing station that covered an and out his shoulder. It was six days before area nearly as large as Rhode Island. Three the body could be removed from the building. men, all in their twenties, were manning the Twenty days later the three corpses were still reactor on the night of January 3, 1961. for in the vault. The heads and hands were so several months the reactor had been having radioactive that they had to be cut off and internal problems, and the crews had been buried with the rest of the "hot" waste. They ordered to perform regular safety tests on the will be radioactive for years-a. grim signpost control rods. Some of the rods had been for the future. disconnected, and others had been sticking. It I suggest that when the Minister tells this House was up to the three young men to perform and the people outside that his Government the rather tricky job of standing on top of the believes there is no inherent danger with nuclear reactor vessel and pulling up a rod that, if reactors he should stop and think again. The raised too high, could send the reactor out of instance I have quoted tonight exposes the control in less than a second. They had narrowness and shabbiness of the Government, performed the test before, however; and it and the Minister is part of that Government. He didn't seem to present a problem. should understand that I have not even bothered That was the First great safety procedure these to deal with the Harrisburg incident to this workers were forced to face. If they pulled the rod moment. The Minister has told untruths! up too high they had one second before they were Mr T. H. Jones: Shame on the Minister! struck by the radiation. To continue-- At 9.01 p.m. a radiation alarm sounded at Mr SKIDMORE: What happened to the men the AEC fire station and at security who cleaned up the radioactive wreckage? headquarters. Two health physicists, a Aire The American Department of Energy is unable brigade, and security crews raced to the to establish whether those people are going to reactor, where they confronted deadly silence suffer from the effects of radiation, because it will and enough radiation in the atmosphere to take a period of perhaps 20 or 30 years or even make their meters go off the 'scale. The longer before any effects will become evident. The reactor was so severely irradiated that men Minister does not have to rely on my word; he had to enter in turns, trying to stay for short need merely cast his mind back to the Hiroshima periods of time so that they could not receive atom bomb and the effects on the people in the too much exposure. The entrance alone area which became evident generations registered 500 rads and was a burned afterwards. wreckage. Inside, their meters hit 1000 Surely the Government's attitude to industrial rads--double what it takes to kill a person. safety has been shown up. I agree with the One man was dead, and another died in the member for Baleatta who so ably laid to rest the ambulance. Their bodies were so notion that one can make a comparison between, contaminated that they had to be packed in not industrial safety, but accident safety with water, alcohol, and ice and then deposited in nuclear reactor stations and a motorcar' or the radiation-proof vault at the chemical whatever. processing plant. One should surely recognise the problems faced So, Mr Minister, people have been killed as a by the Mayor of Harrisburg who had virtually to result of nuclear reactor accidents. What the evacuate 80 000 citizens because of the indecisive Minister said was an untruth. details coming from the experts of the Energy Mr T. H-. Jones: He said there had been no Commission in America. Some people believe the accidents. experts in the commission did not know how bad Mr SKIDMORE: I am only quoting this one the situation was. I believe they knew all right; I instance, but.I could find more. 1 have quoted this believe they Were keeping the truth from the instance to give the lie to the Minister's statement people in the hope that in 30 or 40 years' time and to his obvious unconcern for humanity and people would say, "Yes, it is a great tragedy the safety of wor'kers and people in this world in about the people in Pennsylvania today, but 40 his pursuit of the holy dollar, which is all the years softens the blow caused by mutations." This Government is interested in. To continue- situation could and possibly will fall upon the It took the searchers a while to spot the people in that American State. other victim. -Finally, they saw his body, I hope the Minister for Mines and the Premier impaled one story above the reactor floor. A sleep well when they consider all these points. [ Wed nesday, 11Ith April1, 1979]50 503

I refer now to the report handed to the United Wastes were put into temporary storage States House of Representatives on the, 26th facilities such as tanks, but no provision was April, 1978, which dealt with nuclear power costs. made for their permanent storage-necessary It was a report by congressmen who formed the since some of these wastes are toxic for as Environmental and Energy Natural Resources long as 250,000 years. Subcommittee. One of the members was a I am not bringing up the figure from the depths of William S. Moorehead of Pennsylvania. Members nowhere. It is a Congress report to the American may be interested to learn how he felt about the Government by experts in the field. To investigation held into the nuclear power industry continue- and the results of possible disasters which may hit One such waste-a radioactive isotope of people because of its use. nickel created in the structures of the steel I shall paraphrase portions of the report, reactor-will continue to emit hazardous although this is rather difficult when dealing with levels of radiation for more than I million a highly technical report such as this. Like the years... Premier, I am not an expert in the field of nuclear Again that is not my figure, but the figure of the energy. I have to rely on my ability to read and experts. According to one expert this waste will be learn things. I quote from the summary on page 2 dangerous from 200 000 years to 500 000 years. If as follows- we take the most conservative estimate of the It was expected that construction activity Atomic Industrial Forum of 200 000 to 500 000 would grow at a rate of nearly 20 percent a years during which time the material will be year for the rest of the century. radioactive and will radiate energy at a hazardous That extraordinary growth rate was level, or if we take the estimate of one million achieved and continued through the early years as suggested by the person at the ultimate 1970's, but then it plummeted. Major extreme, we have a problem. There is no question economic, as well as technological and safety about it. problems had become evident. In 1974, 9 In the early stages in America the Government units were canceled and 91 deferred; from put the waste in tanks and buried it in the ground. 1975 through the first 6 months of 1977, 20 It is still there and it still presents a problem. To more were canceled and 192 units deferred. continue- That is surely an indication there was more Costs of decommissioning the highly concern in the minds of the people who prepared radioactive structure of the plant itself once this report. its 40-year. useful life is over were also examined. Here the problem is twofold: To continue- cleaning up the site of the plant itself, and Since the advent of nuclear power more disposing of the mass of radioactive rubble than 30 years ago, nuclear proponents have once the reactor is dismantled. addressed themselves primarily to the I shall leave that particular section and turn to development of nuclear fuels and the waste management costs. It always surprises me production of power. The disposal and that this Government, and in particular the storage of millions of gallons and thousands Minister, forgets to worry about the question of of tons of high and low level radioactive who will pay the waste management costs. The wastes generated from this process were not idea propounded by the Government is that we afforded the same priority. should forget about it; there is no need to worry That is exactly the manner in which the Minister about it; in which case we do not need to account performed in this House tonight. The people who for it when arriving at a cost for nuclear power pushed nuclear energy to the full in America energy versus coal-produced energy, versus fossil operated in the same manner as does this fuel-produced energy. It is easy to make an Minister. Will we never learn from the mistakes equation, because there are no worries about which have been made in other parts of the world waste from a coal-fired power station. There is no in relation to nuclear energy or are we going to be waste from a fossil-fuelled power station. like the animals which were led over the cliffs to However, there is certainly a big problem with their destruction? Are we going to be led over the waste from a nuclear power station and somebody cliff by the Minister for Tndustrial Development has to pay for the disposal of that waste. who so easily brushed aside the question of If we do our homework as well as the nuclear waste from these processes? The report Congressmen in America have done theirs, it will goes on- become abundantly clear that the cost of 504 504[ASSEMBLY 1

generation of nuclear power energy far exceeds shown that there is a problem in regard to tailings that or fossil fuel energy. It exceeds the cost of and perhaps we could come back to that on fossil-fuelled energy to the extent that the mind another occasion. almost boggles. To continue- Costs must be determined and in relation to About 74 million gallons of high-level this matter I should like to quote from page 18 of radioactive wastes are stored at the three the report as follows- sites at present, and about 41 million gallons It is not convincing, however, to say that more will be generated by the year 2000. the as yet undetermined costs of commercial -- By the year 2000 it amounts to a total of 115 nuclear waste management would contribute million gallons of radioactive liquid waste alone. only a negligible amount to the current price On top of that there is clothing, plant, and of nuclear-generated electricity because: equipment which wears out internally in the Estimates run from $2 billion to $20 reactors themselves and in the stations. billion to clean up the Government's This must all be disposed of. It has to go military wastes. somewhere. To continue- Measured in terms of radioactivity, And the volume of low-level radioactive the amounts of waste projected to be waste-equipment, material and generated in the 1990's by civilian clothing-that will be produced in the nuclear power each year will be United States alone by the year 2000 will be comparable to the total military waste about one billion cubic feet .. inventory. Members should listen to these quotations, Therefore, it will cost the American Government because it makes one wonder whether we should somewhere between $4 billion to $40 billion to have this sort of energy. To continue- clean up the waste it has to date-not what it will ...- enough to cover a four-lane, coast-to- have in the future-as a result of its nuclear coast highway one foot deep, according to the power generation programme. No wonder the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. American Government wants to cut down on From one side of America to the other a four-lane expenditure on nuclear power. highway will be covered one foot deep with I suppose it would be easy as a matter of garbage and radioactive material. A comparison economics to say, "Let us go ahead and have it. is made in this document between military waste, Let us have one or two disastrous accidents and which is not accounted for by this committee, and we can wipe out about 300 000 or 400 000 people. waste produced by commercial plants. It says that That in turn will relieve the economic situation military waste exceeds that produced by and the unemployment problem." We will then commercial plants. If we accept that, it means we find ourselves in the situation of saying, "Is that - would have to double all the figures I have what the Government wants?" mentioned tonight in order to obtain an estimate I notice the Minister for Labour and Industry is of the amount Of radioactive waste lying around laughing; but it is a reality. The people of America at the present time. No wonder the Harrisburg were so concerned about the matter Americans are exhibiting great concern. No that they were going to evacuate one million wander the President of the USA has said all of a people so that they would not be affected by the sudden that enough is enough. He has said, "We radiation. have too much of this waste. The re is far too much of it around. We have to stop the Mr O'Connor: You said, ... .wipe out about production of it." 300 000 or 400 000 people." Has that ever been done in the world up to the present time? We must look at the matter of a fast breeder reactor which has been suggested as a means of Mr SKTDMORE: That is always the argument. disposing of some of the waste which can be used It has not happened, so it will not happen. That is again; that is, the unspent fuel. However, such a the argument advanced by people who are pro- reactor would increase and multiply the waste. It uranium. They always say, "You cannot tell me will not lessen thi quantity of waste. about one accident that has happened which involves 300000 people or one million people. Tailings are referred to, but they are a portion Therefore it is not going to happen." of the waste from another Part of the fuel cycle which is uranium mill tailings. However, we are The people from the Australian Atomic Energy talking about nuclear energy production at the Commission who addressed a seminar I attended present time. On page I I of the report it is clearly last Monday had the same worries as I have. [Wednesday, 11Ith April, 19791 5050

Mr Pearce: Three weeks ago they would have has not done exceedingly well because inflation said that the Harrisburg incident could not certainly runs higher than S per cent. Therefore happen. we could be looking at a cost of something like Mr SKIDMORE: Then we deal with the cost $500 million to decommission a plant of that size. which must be compared with the cost of To continue- generation;, surely we do not say in Western Though the Federal Government has made Australia that we will build a nuclear power no commitment to pick up the West Valley station and at the end of its useful life the people tab, it has paid $85 million to clean up will be told they will not be charged any more residues from closed privately owned because the plant is not generating electricity. uranium mills, and has shared with the State Surely no-one will believe that the plant will be of Tennessee the cost of approximately cleaned up without cost. Come on! Someone has $110 000 to decontaminate a facility from to pay and, of course, it will be the people of this which the owners walked away in 1971. State who will pay, and then we will see the escalation in the cost per unit. The cost has been Of course, I have mentioned those wastes which worked out. The report reads- come from the reactor, but there are other wastes which I have not mentioned yet, but which should For example, the Clinch River Breeder Reactor Project was estimated to cost $700 be taken into consideration. I am referring to million. It is now estimated at $2 billion. cleaning out the crud, which is the highly Estimates for the Fast Flux Test Facility at radioactive sludge which forms in the coaling Hanford rose from $87 million originally to systems of all nuclear plants. Although I am no more than $647 million. scientist or an engineer in nuclear production, I would hazard a guess that it could have been crud Obviously the cost would be dependent upon the which caused the problems at the Harrisburg size of the station, but not to a great extent. Once plant because it is formed inside the pumping the reactor is built its size is not proportional to the cost at the end of the road. How much residue system. The report says-- and radioactive material would be involved in the "Crud," as it is referred to by nuclear $2 billion clean-up at the end of the road? Maybe engineers, consists of metal oxides which the Minister can Find some answers and, if so, I become radioactive in the cooling water and would be happy to hear them. accumulate on the insides of reactor piping Decommissioning of the plant is a problem like rust on ordinary iron pipes. which will face the Harrisburg people very soon. I feel perhaps that could have been the problem at If I have time I will deal with the information Harrisburg and it certainly is a problem which provided at the seminar. However, if I do not have faces those people who decommission a station. time, and the member for Mt. Marshall speaks, Let us consider some of the pipelines which run he may mention it. externally to the nuclear reactor station itself. In The dismantling of the nuclear plant may cost some instances in America the radioactive cooling anything from $31 million to more than $100 water has actually been pumped into rivers which million in 1977 dollars, which is between 3 per will be completely radioactive because of the cent and 10 per cent of the $1 billion capital cost. sludge content. It must be. Engineers, have proved So if we apply that back to the other $7 billion it is there. What will we do with it? about which I was speaking, we will have a fair This is a tremendous problem and it is not just bill to decommission the station and this does not include the cost of getting rid of the waste. I am an emotional subject. I am trying to be as referring merely to the decommissioning of the unemotional as I possibly can be in an endeavour station to make it safe, if it can be made safe, and to point out the inherent dangers involved, but there is doubt about that. members on the other side laugh because they are bloody ignorant and are unable to accept what The report continues- will happen to people who should be their After 30 to 40 years, the expected lifespan concern. They treat the subject as a bit of a joke, of a nuclear plant, decommissioning costs as they did the three people who lost their lives- would quadruple (assuming 5 per cent annual inflation). Mr Spriggs: You are the expert and the rest of the world is silly! That is a fairly conservative estimate of our galloping inflation, although I understand the Mr SKIDMORE: This sort of remark is always Federal Government is poking its chest out being levelled at me. manfully because it has done a good job; but it Mr Bryce: We are not all like you. 506 506[ASSEMBLY]

Mr SIKIDMORE: Let me say that at no time inherent in the use of nuclear power. Without a during my address to the House tonight have I doubt the stations do present problems. said that I am submitting my views. I have When there indicated they are riot mine. They are the views is a shutdown of one of these plants expressed as a result of the findings in the United there are problems. Again, might I indicate to States, the Government of which has made those members who are listening that these are decisions which members opposite do not like. not my own thoughts. I ask members to read the The member for Darlitig Range is in the same book and read the report. Hundreds of man-hours category as the other members on his side. They have been put into the book by people acting laugh like hyenas and show no concern for human under the advice of experts in the United States. beings. I would like to be in the electorate of the The report continues- member for Darling Range and debate the matter The Maine Public Utilities Commission, in front of his electors. for example, required Central Maine Power Mr Spriggs: Any time you like. to refund to customers the $3 million cost of Mr Jamieson: You would be the easiest one in a reactor malfunction a few years ago. the world to beat in a debate. What happened, of course, was that the people Mr SKIDMORE: The report states that to who were being supplied with power from the clean up the crud is a difficult process and it is reactor which failed jacked up on the company estimated that the cost would be $36 million. This and said, "Not on your life, we have had enough is in addition to the figures 1 have already of paying for something we are not getting." mentioned. Those people took court action and secured a Consumers pay twice, and in the findings of the payment of $3 million from that particular inquiry is the following- private supplier. If Komanoff's conclusions are valid, the Mr. Tonkin: Of course they did, unreliability of nuclear plants requires consumers to often pay twice for nuclear- Mr SKIDMORE: I hope no-one doubted what generated elect ri city-once for the Fixed cost I said. per unit of electricity and again for replacement fuel burned when the reactor is I will now deal w ith the question in the report, shut down for repairs. "Was It Ever Economical?" I suggest that those There is no question about that. They pay twice. members who have not had time to read the They do not get power, but they are paying for report might like to look at it. It is readily power consumed when the reactors are shut down. available, although mine had to come from the Someone has to pay. I hope we never ever have a United States Embassy. The report reads- nuclear plant, but if we do have one how will the Diverse groups have begun to question SEC supply power when the nuclear plant is shut whether nuclear power was ever the real down? answer to America's dream of low-cost, Mr T. H-.Jones: That's a good question. abundant, energy supplies. Mr SKIDM4ORE: Will the SEC start up the A recently released. Rand Corp. report oil-fired plants and coat-fired plants? disputes that nuclear power was ever Mr T. H. Jones; They would be out of economical. commission. A notice accompanying the report says the Mr SKIDMORE: The report continues- study notes that: This double cost is well exemplified by: the $23 million surcharge New York's ... beginning in 1963, during the Consolidated Edison customers were asked to transition from demonstration to full- pay when one of its plants was shut down for scale commercial operation, a plague of 6 months in 1976., and the $240 million cost economic troubles beset the industry. To to TVA customers, when a 1975 fire caused. the chagrin of government and industry a I 7-month outage at the Brown's Ferry advocates of nuclear power, Atomic nuclear plant in Alabama. Energy CZommission demonstration So do not let the Minister try to tell those on this projects failed to convince utilities that side of the House that we are not acting nuclear power could compete in the responsibly when we speak of the dangers marketplace with conventional fuels. [Wednesday, I11th April, 1979150 507

According to the study, the notice says. demonstrated, and the costs of dismantling General Electric and Westinghouse- such a reactor are still unknown. No-one would ever doubt the capacity of those One must realise there is no demonstrated way international giants in America. The report the cost can be associated. The report goes on- cont inuies- 4. Operating reliability of nuclear plants is -buoyed by overly optimistic projections of an important factor in the cost of nuclear- cost effectiveness, began building plants for generated electricity because the less reliable utilities. The resulting financial the plants are, the more expensive the debacle-G.E. and Westinghouse absorbed electricity becomes. losses in excess of $850 million- 5. Because nuclear plants are less reliable A cost of $850 million. Is that economical? Was than conventional plants, customers of it economical in America? Will the Minister try nuclear-generated electricity often pay extra to convince me it is economical, or will be for the replacement fuel burned when the economical, to construct one plant when hundreds reactor is shut down. of plants in America have obviously railed? No 6. Capital construction costs of nuclear doubt, if we looked at other countries we would plants, as well as fuel costs, have risen find that the same thing has happened in those dramatically. Construction costs have risen countries. The report goes on- 10 times faster than the consumer price -while some utilities wound up paying twice index, and more than twice that of coal-fired the estimated cost for new plants.. . plants-undermined the credibility of The Minister has tried to tell us this is a good nuclear power advocates. thing economically. Surely it is about time we me I want to started to learn from other countries which have In the short time left available to had problems. Or, are we to sit here with our attention to the findings in the conclusion of draw heads in the sand? To continue- the paper. Therefore, I will skip over to page 74 of the report and to the concluding remarks. The 7. Utilities have overbuilt their capacity conclusions of the committee submitted to the for electrical generation far in excess of United States were- demand. This high-capital overbuilding has cost consumers many millions of extra dollars I. Radioactive waste is a significant and for nuclear-generated electricity. For growing problem-at least 3 000 metric example, Potomac Electric Power Co. tonnes of spent nuclear fuel are now being customers in Maryland paid an extra $26 stored at commercial reactor sites with an million in 1976. additional 17 000 metric tonnes expected to accumulate in the next decade- Iwonder how much the people in this State will pay for the oversupply which must occur. If the This is the most telling and damning part. To station is to be economically viable it will have to continue- create a surplus of electricity. I wonder how m,uch -yet there is still no demonstrated we will have to pay, as an economic factor, for the technology for permanently and safely use of a very doubtful return from nuclear disposing of this waste. energy? That is contrary to what the Minister tells us I referred earlier to Congressman William S. about the French experiment. If one likes to Moorhead from Pennsylvania in which State, of analyse that experiment and note what was said course, is the Harrisburg reactor. It would be in the Press recently one will see that the reports appropriate to hear what he had to say. I quote- have shown that the French have said they do not However, the future of nuclear energy is care, and that is where the stuff was going. To now threatened by the continuing failure of continue- Government and industry to deal effectively 2. Neither the Federal Government nor the wish the nuclear waste disposal problem. nuclear industry has prepared reliable cost According to the committee report, no one' estimates for the ultimate disposal and has yet demonstrated a safe and perpetual care of radioactive wastes and technologically functional method for spent nuclear fuel. disposing of nuclear wastes. When one considers that this country's commercial 3. After 30 years of nuclear power nuclear powerplants every day produce more development, technology to dismantle a large and more radioactive wastes-some of which commercial reactor has not yet been retain their dangerous level of radioactivity 508 508(ASSEMBLY] for tens of thousands of years-the question conveniently forgot to mention. The President of of what to do becomes increasingly pressing. the United States has said, "Wind down." That was a congressman replying to the Congressmen have said, "We will shut down 27 Pennsylvanian people. The report goes on- stations because we cannot find anywhere to put the waste. We are up to our eyeballs in it. We will According to the committee report, an shut the stations ERDA report down until we find out what to has found that 23 of our do with the waste." nuclear power plants may be forced to shut down beginning as early as 1979 due to a The Minister says no-one has been killed by a lack of waste storage space if no action is reactor explosion, burn-out, or shut-down, but I taken soon. think I have adequately demonstrated that is not so. People have been killed in a terrible way, to Because there is so much waste in America, 23 the extent that shut down !ntenarftr their hands and bodies were stations will be disposed of because they were so radioactive. because that country cannot store any more waste. The congressman from Pennsylvania was M~R MCPHARUIN (Mt. Marshall) [11.23 so concerned about radioactive waste that he p.m.]: I think it should be made clear at the actually moved a resolution in the House of outset that the Opposition appears to be Representatives in the United States to the effect neglecting a very vital factor; that is, fossil fuels that the Government had to deal with the are limited. Members of the Opposition must be question of waste on a permanent basis within a aware that there is a limit to the fossil fuels period of two years. That is what he thought of available in the world to cater for the generation the problem, and that is how much concern he of power and other uses. had. In fairness to the Minister, when he made the comment about deaths in the nuclear industry he So that I will not be accused of picking out the items which are favourable to me, t will read said there had been no deaths resulting from the what William S. Moorhead went on to say, when development of commercial power stations. talking about the committee. He said- Mr Tonkin: How do you know that? Mr McPHARLIN: The member for Swan However, it has made findings and quoted statistics relating to deaths which occurred recommendations on a far broader spectrum, at an experimental power station. Nobody denies some of which I am unable to support. I am that deaths have occurred at experimental particularly troubled by those aspects of the stations, but of course a higher risk is always report strongly suggest that nuclear energy is attached to any experimentation in the an option which America should not pursue. development of industry, and no scientist would I am also troubled by the tone of the report ever say no risks are attached to the development which, in my opinion, has an overly of nuclear power. In dealing with a radioactive antinuclear stance. substance, naturally risks must be involved. I wonder whether, since the 26th April. 1978, Mr Pearce: Is this- National Party policy or are when the report was tabled in the House of you speaking just for yourself? Representatives, the feelings of Congressman Mr McPHARLIN: An amendment has been Moorhead have changed. Would he be prepared moved to the Address-in-Reply criticising the to say he was in favour of nuclear power, bearing Government on its intention to go ahead with the in mind the disaster which affected the people he development of a nuclear power station in represents? I think he would say, "I believe I was Western Australia. Members should be made wrong to adopt that attitude a short time ago." If he does not, he certainly aware of how long it takes from the initial has his head buried in planning stages until the station actually comes the sand, because the dangers inherent in the use book which was given to of nuclear power for electricity generation must on stream. I have here a be patently me when I visited the Lucas Heights power clear to him. station in Sydney last year. It deals with the steps I hope the member for Mt. Marshall will deal to nuclear power and explains how long it takes with the Harrisburg question. If he does not, I from the planning stage, site selection, feasibility will take the opjolrtunity to refer to it at a later studies, and all the rest of it, and it is a fairly long stage of the debate. It is doubtful that even the time. From the initial stages to bringing experts know the true reasons for it, but I electricity on stream we would be looking at understand two human failures and two plant something like 15 years. I therefore say it is failures were involved in the problems associated advisable at least to do the planning at this stage with the Harrisburg reactor. and have a look at what is required by way of site Surely to goodness one could not but be selection, feasibility studies, manufacturing, and concerned about the points the Minister so all the other aspects. [Wednesday, I Ith April, 1979150 509

I think it would take longer than IS years in recognise the problems, and I think it will. Even Western Australia because we do not have the when this subject was debated on previous facilities and expertise to build a nuclear power occasions in this House, another aspect was not station. -looked at. Discussion is taking place amongst the Mr Pearce: Would you have it in Mt. scientists and researchers about combining Marshall? nuclear power stations with water desalination plants by using the heat generated. By combining Mr McPHARLIN: The Government would have regard for all the safety aspects in the these two uses, the plant becomes quite an development of a power station of this kind.- No economic proposition if there is a need for the responsible Government would neglect the safety desalination of water in the area. Looking ahead, factors. I believe the Government would form a it may be desirable to undertake a feasibility regulatory body to ensure the health and safety of study on just that project. the people who would be involved, as has been the Of course other developments are taking place practice in other countries. Every day of every all the time. Although there are no immediate week of every year research is continually carried prospects of a successful fusion process research out on disposal methods, the use of uranium, and into this aspect is taking place in several countries every aspect of the industry. including Russia, the United Kingdom, and We in Western Australia should support the Japan. Many problems have to be overcome, but mining and milling of uranium. We would be according to the comments of one scientist, if it neglecting the needs of countries which are very does become practicable we will have a power short of oil, coal, and other resources for the source for billions of years. development of power if we did not export our Mr B. T. Burke: Who was the scientist? uranium to them; and Japan is one of those Mr MePIIARLIN: This could be a quite safe countries. process involving hardly any waste, Or course it is I go further and suggest to the Government it a long way off yet. would be advisable to consider the development of Mr Pearce: We do not argue about fusion. an enrichment plant. Mr McPHARLIN: Uranium must be used Mr Bryce: I cannot understand why you left the initially to generate the tremendous degrees of coalition. heat required. Mr Pearce: Would you have the enrichment I believe there is need for planning at this stage. plant in Mt. Marshall? The Government would- be remiss if it did not Mr McPHARLIN: I would not mind having plan for the future because we must provide an the enrichment plant in Mt. Marshall. As a adequate power source. When fossil fuels are in matter of fact, I would not mind having it on my short supply, we must look for other sources. If a farm. I would not have minded had I been given renewable clean source of power were available, the plutonium which was buried at Maralinga; it every country that has developed nuclear power could have been buried on my property as long as would embrace it and implement *it. However, it was given to me. It was a highly valuable piece, such a source is not available to replace fossil according to the stories. fuels to the same degree that nuclear power is Uranium enrichment plants in Australia have able to do. been discussed at some length. No firm plans have I have here many statistics giving comparisons been made to build a plant of this nature, and I between coal, oil, gas, and nuclear power, and also at do not think the Government has closely looked setting out the rates of death and man-days lost. Australia. With an building a plant in Western We heard some of these flgures given the other enrichment plant we-could attract a far greater income by selling the enriched uranium. This day at the seminar at WAIT. would be a great profit earner. America has been Mr Bryce: What a lopsided seminar that was; it enriching uranium under contract from all parts was a disgrace. of the world, including Australia. We could Mr McPHARLIN: Some questioned the consider further the prospect of developing such a authenticity of it, and some said it was plant to obtain the trade that is now diverted to propaganda. However, I believe that the figures other countries. presented came from very reliable sources and We are all conscious of the need for safety in they were fairly conclusive in regard to assurances regard to a nuclear power station. The about the safety built into nuclear power reactors. Government would be remiss if it did not T do not propose to become involved in what 510 510ASSEM BLY] happened at Harrisburg because [ do not claim to Mr Bryce: Plenty of coal in Collie. know what happened. Mr MePHARLIN: Speaking of~coal reminds Mr Tonkin: What about Whittington? me that South Africa has thousands of millions of Mr B. T, Burke: What about Windscale? tonnes of coal but it is going ahead with nuclear Mr Stephens: We were talking about that last development because it wants to extract the oil week-wake up. from the coal. Mr B. Mr McPH-ARLIN: Scientists are not clear T. Burke: The Minister will start about what happened at Harrisburg. As the interjecting in a minute-he did when I got to this member for Swan knows, Dr Symonds related stage. what he thought had happened but he would not Mr McPHARLIN: We must not run away commit himself. He said that they did not yet with the idea that our coal supplies are have the information to decide what happened, so inexhaustible. far be it from me to debate something the .Other speakers have referred to radioactive scientists are not sure or. waste and the vitrification of this waste into Mr Bryce: But a melt-down nearly occurred. solids, glass, and so on. We have heard all this before. Mr Stephens: It rather proved they have the ~technology to control the situation. Mr Bryce: It is not safe. It doesn't work, does Mr Bryce: They were lucky. it? Mr MePHARLIN: I would like to read Mr Pearce: And the technology to evacuate the the reply given to a question about this matter. It population. states- Mr Bryce: They got ready to evacuate the The long term physical stability of the people because they did not think they could glasses against devitrification through control the situation. irradiation damage, or from internal Mr Stephens: The fact remains that the generation of helium gas, has also been technology was good enough to handle the studied. situation. So this has already been studied. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Crane): Order! Mr Bryce: That is the point I made-it is Mr McPHARLIN: We must accept that devitrification. evacuation could be necessary. The Government Mr MePHARLIN: The answer continues- was ensuring the safety of those people. Everything was done to ensure that nothing Some glass samples have been irradiated happened to the people. with an electron beam to an integrated dose of loll rads, without change in structure, Mr B. T. Burke: What about the Liberal leaching rate or tendency towards Party? What does it say about this? devitrification. This radiation dosage is about Mr !vcPHARLIN: The Government was not one tenth of that calculated for 1000 years prepared to take the risk. I am very keen, as many storage of a glassified high level waste from other people are very keen, to find out what did LWR fuel. happen. The Harrisburg plant is a new one; it was They projected those tests forward and have commissioned recently and it wilt be very found the material would not disintegrate in 1 000 interesting to know what did happen. We should years. Experiments and research are being endorse the plan proposed by the Government. conducted in respect of the matter of nuclear We should undertake the planning, the site waste. I assume the waste to which the member selection, and the feasibility study. In fact, we for Swan referred was high level radioactive should do all those things necessary for us to liquid waste. install such a plant. Mr Bryce: Why aren't the French going to bury Mr B. T. Burke: Let us have a Select their waste? Committee. Mr McPHARLIN: There are different kinds of Mr McPI-ARLIN: I do not think there is any waste; there is high level radioactive liquid waste, immediate urgency at this stage. mediant low level liquid waste, solid waste, and so Mr Tonkin: Would you chair a Select on. Committee? Mr Barnett; You said nothing would happen Mr McPHARLIN: In Australia we have a for 1000 years. Was this research done by fairly reliable supply of coal. Harold? (Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979])1 511

Mr McPHARLIN: The Harwell Research time the Federal Government estimated that by Laboratory in England carried out the tests. the turn of the century something like 1 000 *Mr Barnett: Oh, it was Harwell, and not nuclear reactor plants would be in operation in Harold, was it? the United States. However, the latest estimation is that only about 300 plants *Mr McPHARLIN: Who is will be operating by Harold? Is he a that time. This indicates that there friend is a downturn of the member for Rockingham? in this sphere. The United States still has the Mr Barnett: Obviously you are not a student of Capacity to turn out 25 to 30 reactors a year, but history. there are only two reactors on order. Mr McPHARLIN: It seems to me there is no If that is not a sufficient warning that it is an extreme emergency at this time, and I know the act of crass irresponsibility for politicians to people concerned'in Western Australia will adopt proceed towards nuclear energy production, I do a responsible attitude towards this problem. We not know what is. I am sure that article can be will watch very closely the planning and the regarded as being authoritative. safety factors in respect of any nuclear For the information of members I point out development. I do not believe the amendment that the article indicates that as a result of moved by the member for Collie is warrantedat problems in the United States caused by this stage and, therefore, I oppose it. environmentalists and others, it now takes an MR JAMIESON (Welshpool) [11.42 p.m.]: average of 12 years to build and license a nuclear For any political party to proceed-as the plant, whereas it takes only eight years to build Government has announced its intention of and license a coal-fired plant. I would say that is doing-with nuclear power generation in the face a fair indication we should be looking at coal- of the things that have been said tonight, and the fired plants. comments just made by the member for Mt. The member for Mt. Marshall indicated that Marshall, would obviously be an act of crass the Harrisburg plant is a fairly new one and old irresponsibility. We have had all sorts of plants probably do not pose a great problem. It Is warnings. I refer not only to the recent interesting to note that the final several Harrisburg accident, but also the warnings of paragraphs of the article state- people in the United States who are expert in the production and use of nuclear power plants. But even thriving nuclear operations can prove vulnerable. Until late 1977, GE's small I am indeed indebted to an article which reactor at Vallecitos, California, was the appeared in The Australian Financial Review of main source in the US of isotopes for medical Wednesday, the-28th February, 1979, which was use. Then, during a routine inspection, headed, "Nuclear Industry's Bleak Future". The federal officials found a seismic fault near report comes from The Wall Street Journal, and the plant and closed the reactor down. it indicates clearly* that the development of In order to calculate the potential hazard, nuclear power, once the hope of the future, has giant trenches up to 40 feet deep and 2 000 begun to slow; and many people are questioning feet long have been dug around the reactor. whether nuclear energy is merely a transition to "it looks like the excavation for the Great solar power and the increased use of coal. Wall of China," says a GE Official. Mr Bryce: That is a fairly radical and Meanwhile, the plant remains closed and the unreliable source of information! medical isotope business has gone to other Mr JAMIESON: The point I am making is companies. that the people mentioned in this article would Therefore we see a warning in a very reliable have more knowledge of nuclear energy than publication from both an economic and a those who defend it. Thfe Wall Street Journal production point of view: that we should not rush people were merely interested in the financial into nuclear energy at this stage. downturn ih companies that had spent millions of I have never denied that man is the master of dollars on setting up factories to manufacture his own destiny; and as was mentioned by the parts for nuclear power plants. One such factory member for Mt. Marshall ultimately we will have was opened in 1974 at a cost of $30 million. It nuclear fusion instead of nuclear fission to provide was opened by the Chicago Bridge and Iron Co., power. Then and only then will we be in a position but it was closed down a little more than a year effectively and properly to use nuclear reactors. ago. Until that time we should do all that we can to At its peak, the United States had a record of provide electricity by other means. Of course, that 41 reactor orders in the year of 1973. At. that is what the amendment is all about. 512 512[ASSEMBLY]

This year the Government has given an Electricity I was approached by the Taylor indication that possibly there is more coal in the Woodrow organisation with a request to Collie area than we have been led to believe is investigate the possibility of establishing a there. The member for Collie says there is 5 000 thermal plant north of the city. The company million tonnes of extractable coal; and that believed it had a sufficient quar~tity of coal on the estimate has been made probably by guess and areas it had under lease to supply such a plant. with the guidance of a few drilling operations. If all these reserves are proved, in addition to However, we notice that the Governor in his those mentioned by the member for Collie, we Speech indicated aerial mapping of the area will be carried out this year. have no need at this stage of our history even to plan entering a nuclear era. We have an abundant Mr T. H. Jones: Will you tell me what that will supply of fossil fuels to satisfy our electricity achieve? requirements well into the next century. I suggest Mr JAMIESON: I do not know, but if the we should be wary of racing into something which aerial mapping is proceeded with the only point I could lead us to disaster and could cause problems would make to the member for Collie is that his for generations to come because we did not know estimate probably will be found to be short. what we were doing. That to me seems to be the Obviously the Government considers it worth basis on which we should conisider this decision. while to conduct aerial mapping in order to ascertain what deposits of coal are available; and Having mentioned the future, I should like now it appears the Government has an idea there is to refer to the past. The Premier was quite more coal in the area than is generally thought to vociferous from his seat in disclaiming be the case. responsibility for the situation which developed after the Government's decision to opt for oil- The most recent figures I have-they are not as fired power generation. I say here and now-and recent as I would like-are calculated as at the I defy the Premier to prove otherwise-that he end of 1978. We were able to assess that it cost was the influence behind the decision 1.57c per unit to generate electricity at the oil- to cut back burning Kwinana power station and 0.58c per on the use of Collie coal in the 1960s. I know this unit at the coal-burning Muja power station:- to be a fact because I was on the negotiating committees dealing with him. Whilst we could The facts seem clearly to indicate to every always get somewhere with the Hon. Arthur Western Australian that the Court Government is Watts and the Hon. Arthur Griffith, every time blundering by going ahead with something it does they were about to make a decision the now not or will not understand and which is not Premier took them away and they came back and necessary at this point in our history. No other State in Australia has adopted such a policy. It is changed their minds. This occurred week after true that some States have a great deal of coal. week after week. We were driving backwards and There is any amount of steaming coal in New forwards to Collie, negotiating with the South Wales, Queensland, and Victoria, and to a companies, the Government, and the miners limited extent, South Australia but no State has themselves. I certainly know what I am talking coal reserves to the extent we have in Western about on this issue because I know what I went Australia, if the full reserves are properly through and I know what the Premier was doing. examined. When we went into Government we knew what We have not touched on those deposits to the his attitude was. When he could not get his own north of the city. True, they have some way, he had a habit of having Premier's overburden lying on them, but they are still vast committees established, which were answerable to deposits. They have not even been assessed by the the Premier. However, somewhere along the line Mines Department. In fact, for some unknown they always seemed to go through the Minister reasons it would appear they have not even been for Industrial Development. We set about getting reported to the Mines Department because every rid of some of those committees. They were quite time I ask the Minister about this matter he looks excessive; they seemed to be on everything. We blankly at me and says there is no knowledge of would start working somewhere and would find a such deposits. Nevertheless, drilling has taken Premier's committee was established to examine place-for mineral sand and the like-and large the matter. We knew exactly what his idea was: It deposits of coal have been located in the Hill was for the now Premier to keep a very tight rein River area and in the general Eneabba region. in case any one of the Ministers happened to be A number of deposits are known to exist by advising the Premier of the day in a way which many firms. In fact, while I was Minister for did not suit his particular line of action. [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 19791 5131

The Premier mentioned that the Tonkin among the top-ranked negotiating companies in Government selected a site for a nuclear power the world. plant. We will have the truth of that one, too. Mr T. 'H. Jones: Do not forget it did not pay Sir Charles Court: I do not think I said it any wharfage. That saved the company a few selected a site; I said it sought one. hundred million dollars. Mr JAMIESON: I happened to be Minister at Mr JAMIESON: The company did not give the time. Because a site which had been allocated political donations, either; that was probably to its to the State Electricity Commission at Long Point disadvantage. I recall a time when I was acting as was to be taken away from the commission, the party secretary, signing a letter requesting a then manager (Mr Gillies) sought an alternative donation from British Petroleum. We were site. He suggested it would be advisable when politely informed the company donsated only to selecting a site to consider the possibility of the Salvation Army and the like. It said that nuclear power at some stage in the future. That because it was owned by the British Government, form of power generation in those days was very much in its infancy but it was thought prudent to it could not make political donations. reserve a sufficient area to cater for any future Mr Ton kin: What about Shell? move in this direction. Mr JAMIESON- That is different; that is He returned some time later with plans to Royal Dutch _Shell; that company is not part of acquire a large tract of land near the Alkimos our establishment. I do not know whether the wreck, going inland for several kilometres. We member for Morley would be very happy with ran into a lot of trouble with that one; some that company. owners were not too keen on the idea and before That is the situation associated with the British very long the area had withered down to almost Petroleum company. If it had not been for that, I negligible proportions and was not proceeded would say we would be in a much better position with. today. The State Energy Commission would Now the suggestion is that the station be probably be able to give greater concessions than situated at Ledge Point. This may be the case. it has been able to give. However, there was never any firm intention on In the amendment of the member for Collie he the part of the Labor Government to establish a mentions particularly pensioners and low-income nuclear power generating plant. Indeed, it was the earners, and the trials and tribulations they policy of the Labor Government to generate experience in meeting their payments. Recently a electricity by other means. We felt nuclear power number of these was not necessary then, and we say 4t is not people were worrying me about necessary now. the fixed charges for electricity. They felt that, with their low bills, they were required'to pay a However, what we do say is that, due to the very high comparative percentage cost per unit. I lack of foresight of the Government and in view of wrote to the State Energy Commission, and I the figures I have quoted relating to the received a reply from the manager of marketing comparative costs of generating electricity, the and gas. I do not know whether it means the people of this State have been placed at ransom as marketing of electricity and gas. It just says, to the amount they are paying for electricity. "Manager, Marketing and Gas". I thought that It was all very well the Premier in his days as the letter did the State Energy Commission very Minister for Industrial Development believing in little credit. I think that the last paragraphs of free luncheons. This is where he got into bad that letter arc worth recording in Ha nsard. habits. British Petroleum found it cheaper to give its furnace oil to the Government than to take it After telling me that they have to make these away. Naturally, Collie coal could not compete. fixed charges because they have to provide However, the Labor Party realised this situation transmission lines and equipment associated with could not last and we said at the time it should the supply to the property of the customer, and on not be tolerated, and that British Petroleum was and on and on, the manager advised me as using the Government only to suit its own follows- convenience. You may recall that when tariffs were British Petroleum's officers were top-rank increased by 20% in 1977 the energy charge operators and were very smart negotiators. for domestic customers was only increased by Despite the ract it is owned by the British I1I% to compensate for the transfer of fixed Government and should be considered as one of costs from the energy component to the fixed those worthless socialist companies, probably it is cost component. (171 514 514[ASSEMBLY]

Again in 1978 when tariffs were increased biggest problem has been in controlling the by an average of 7% the domestic energy device. charge was only increased by 4.7% to This is the aspect in which the present uranium compensate for a further transfer of fixed system has an advantage. That is why scientists costs. are persisting with that process at this stage. The In 1977 a low consumption pensioner control rods may be varied and a different output rebate scheme was introduced, not as a social obtained; whereas with the fusion device, once it services benefit but to ensure that low has been fuelled it must be kept going. This is the consumption pensioners were not main disadvantage. Undoubtedly skilled scientists disadvantaged by comparison with a typical will find ways and means of controlling the customer. The rebate wai marginally output. increased in the 1978 review to again ensure that the low consumption pensioner did not I hope that when that is achieved-maybe in see a greater than community average the year 2000 or 2010-the Government of this increase in their accounts. State will show interest in securing such a plant for the people of this State. However, until that The Commission is a trading organisation required to produce a product for sale and time there is abundant evidence that there is any should not become involved in fragmented amount of fossil fuel available to us, at least in social service benefits. Social service benefits this State and at least in Australia. are the responsiblity of the Commonwealth I understand that one of my Federal colleagues where benefits can be applied uniformly at a has been trying to sell some of his New South national level. Wales coal to Western Australia. It seems more I thought that was a rather profound statement than passing strange; but he is an experienced for an employee of the State Energy Commission man, and he shows good salesmanship. His to make. The letter continued- endeavours were to indicate that there- was an availability of coal in Australia to provide for Please rest assured that whilst the thermal power stations. Commission is very conscious of the effect that increases have on the community as a I suggest that until there is an absolute whole, and particularly on those in the fixed necessity for us to begin nuclear power or lower income groups, it cannot reduce generation, we should plan for future thermal tariffs to one section of its customers by power stations to pick up the load as they are increasing the price to the remainder. required. If necessary, theancient thermal power I do not know why it cannot reduce tariffs. It is stations may be phased out, and the power only a matter of policy. If the manager had said, stations that are not efficient may be phased out. "It is not the policy to do that", I might have Modern plant should be put into the power believed him. I do not believe that they cannot do stations. The thermal power stations would then that. The manager did the commission less than suffice for the future, and provide for the people justice in writing a letter in that form. of Western Australia the electricity that they will A lot has been said tonight to convince people need at a very cheap price. in this House that it is not desirable to begin the As I quoted earlier, the price per unit for other production of electricity by means of atomic methods of generation is not known at present. It power. I sincerely believe that the production of would be best for us to keep going with something atomic power will come about a lot quicker if we we know. do not encourage the use of a dirty -type of I support the amendment to the motion. It is generator. We will have the clean generator: we justified at this stage. I hope that members give will have the fusion generator before we would very keen consideration to this matter. It is a otherwise have had it. matter for the future. It is a matter that we Throughout history, necessity has proved to be should worry about, and we should not discuss it the mother of invention. We know from what we lightly. have read in the Press and from what has been available in various technical magazines that the MRTONKIN (Morley) [12.07 a.m.]: It is quite fusion generating process has been achieved clear that this Government is prepared to take the already. That process does not necessarily need world's nuclear waste in order to make sure that it uranium triggering. The stage has been reached exports uranium from Yelirrie and elsewhere. where, by various other means, the device can An answer given to me by the Premier is very effectively be triggered. However, at this stage the interesting. Part of that answer reads as follows- (Wednesday, I11th April, l9791 5151

While the policy statement does not have accidents", as if one could equate the kind of address specifically the question of radio accident that a motorcar can have with the kind active waste management such, aspects would oif accident that could occur with nuclear wastes. form part of the processing of nuclear A car accident is over in minutes, whereas materials in Western Australia (policy statement No. 25) which the Government is nuclear waste goes on killing for hundreds of resolved to encourage. thousands of years. Not only does it kill those living at present, but it alters the genes which can The Government has committed itself to affect the health of generations-not just the next encouraging the processing of nuclear materials in few Western Australia. That includes radioactive generations, but for hundreds of generations waste management. Clearly, the Premier has to come. Once these genes are mutated they will entered into a deal with those who want our not recover. The damage is permanent. Through uranium, and he is prepared to say, in order to genes we pass on our characteriajics, such as blue have our uranium exported at the expense of eyes, baldness, weight and height. Once the genes other uranium in the world, that we will take their are subjected to radioactive bombardment the waste. mutation lasts for all time. This is the kind of Sir Charles Court: Who told you that? material the Government is encouraging to be buried here. Mr TON KIN: The Premier said that in his answer. We know of the article in The Canberra Times of the 30th Sir Charles Court: No I did not. July last where the Premier was quoted as saying -he was quite happy for Western Mr TON KIN: I have already read that to the Australia to take radioactive wastes. Here we see House. a person who is development mad. As the member Sir Charles Court: You read the answer. for Collie pointed out, the Brand Government Mr TONKIN: We will encourage the use of sold out to the oil lobby in the 1960s over power Western Australia for radioactive waste. generation. Now this Government is selling out to Sir Charles Court: You read the answer. the uranium lobby. Mr TON KIN: All right, I will read the lot. Just recently the Government also sold out to Mr Bryce: You would like to think your double- the oil lobby. So this is a Government controlled Dutch was confusing enough, but it is not. by international big business; controlled by international oil companies and uranium Mr TON KIN: It reads as follows- companies. While the policy statement does not address specifically the question of radio The other day the Premier indicated that he active waste management such aspects would was not too happy about some of the package of form part of the processing of nuclear measures suggested by the Federal Minister, Mr materials in Western Australia (policy Wal Fife. However, in the WAACC newsletter statement No. 25) which the Government is the Deputy Premier said, on behalf of the resolved to encourage. Premier, that the Government supported the Sir Charles Court: That is right. package of measures. What happened between December when the measures were acceptable Mr TONKCIN: The Government is resolved to and 'the Deputy Premier's statement which encourage the processing of nuclear materials showed they were not? which, the Premier says, specifically includes the question of radioactive waste management. What happened is that the SEC, which is under Therefore, the Government is resolved to take oil lobby control, made a submission to the it-not if it is safe; not at some future time; but it Government. The Premier indicated in his answer is resolved to take it. to me that this was so. The SEC has put forward The member for Mt. Marshall, who has been the oil lobby argument. So no longer is the on a trip to become the expert of this Parliament Premier prepared to back the Australian on nuclear matters, said that he would be happy Government's package of measures put forward to have plutonium put on his farm. This is the by Wal Fife, who has said it would be no use kind of mentality, the kind of inability to unless every one of the components of that understand we have to deal with. package was accepted. The member for Balcatta earlier tonight * We see a Liberal Government, of the type pointed out the abysmal ignorance of people who which sold out to the oil lobby in the 1960s, say, "You do not buy motorcars because people selling out to another lobby, the uranium lobby. 516 516[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Mensaros: The Government has taken note next State election; he is not concerned about of the consumers' interest as well as the retailers' future generations of Western Australians. He is interest. not concerned about people being affected by Mr TONKIN: Is that why the Government nuclear waste for hundreds of thousands of years decided to move away from coal and move to oil in the future. By that time all of us in this in the 1960s, even though it was quite clear that Parliament will be dead and gone. The Premier is petroleum was in short supply and was going to very short-sighted in living from one three-year come to an end in a very short period of time? election to the other. Why has the Government changed its mind in This is the kind of situation which I and all respect of the package of measures? Is it that the Opposition members believe the people have a uranium lobby has got to the Government? Is it right to know about. There should be no secret because of the donations made to the Liberal deals. There have been secret deals made with oil Party funds by the oil lobby and the uranium companies such as in the 1960s. These deals cost lobby? These are the facts of the matter. this State millions of dollars. These blunders have We have a Premier who is development mad to be paid for, not by the Government, but by the and who sees the next election in terms of what consumers of electricity. development he can arrange. He is prepared to The situation is different with nuclear waste take nuclear waste in Western Australia, while because the people will have to pay for it with the rest of the world will have nothing to do with their lives, as well as with their money. This is the it. This is the same Government that says to the kind of irresponsibility we have from the Commonwealth Government, "Stay out of Government. We have the Premier strutting environmental matters; we want a free hand". It about the place talking about responsible is a wonder the Premier has not called himself Government and having a sensible look at things. the leader of the secession party. He always says he does not want interference from the Federal We cannot trust this man. In the. 1960s Government, that he wants to go ahead with the Western Australians trusted the Government to development of uranium so that it can be do the right thing, and the Government made a exported to other countries and for the wastes to massive blunder. It caved in to the oil lobby. Why be returned to Western Australia. should the people trust the Government when it has that sort of record? Before the last State election when I moved a motion in this House in respect of nuclear wastes, With respect to the Federal Government's the Premier interjected and said, "You want to package of measures, we see the State get Veelirrie off the ground, don't you?" He said Government changed its view in a matter of that in connection with our taking nuclear wastes. weeks. Having given an undertaking in December, The motion was about nuclear Wastes being it caved in to the oil lobby. received in Western Australia. There is obviously The Premier says. "Trust me, I am an honest a connection with Yeelirrie getting off the ground man. I will not say whether I had conversations and having nuclear wastes. with the Victorian Government about Dr This is the deal the Government has made. It Chittleborough, but I am an honest man." That is says such discussions are not matters for the what the Premier has said. Why should the people Parliament. We have seen the Premier's attitude trust the Premier? Does the State belong to the in connection with conversations he has had with Premier or the people? the Victorian Government with respect to Dr I repeat: We knew before the last State election Chittleborough. The Premier will not deny the when we were talking about waste disposal, and conversations took place; he merely says there are the Premier kept interjecting and asking, "Do you some things that the people should not know; that want Veelirrie or not?", that he was prepared to it is only for the Government to know. For some accept these wastes. A deal was made then. No- reason the Government will not inform the people. one in the world except this Government wants When the Premier is dead and gone and when nuclear waste. If there are sellers of uranium this State has been blighted and ruined forever, competing with~one another, what do they have to the people will know about the deal and they will offer to make a sale? The only country-in fact curse the Premier's memory. A car accident is the only State-in the world prepared to pay the over in a few minutes, but nuclear wastes go on price of accepting nuclear waste is Western killing for hundreds of thousands of years. Australia. The Government is prepared to accept The Premier has an obsession with the waste; it is prepared to accept the nuclear development. He is interested only in winning the garbage of the world in order to sell our uranium. [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 19791 5171

How development mad can a person be; how does he refuse to deny his conversation irresponsible can a person be? with the Victorian Deputy Premier Amendment put and a division taken with the concerning Dr Graham Chittleborough? following result- Sir CHARLES COURT replied: Ayes 19 Mr Barnett Mr Jamieson There is a very good reason, which I Mr Bertram Mr T. H. Jones hope the Leader of the Opposition will Mr Bryc Mr Mclver appreciate, that discussions between Mr B.TBurke Mr Pearce Mr Carr Mr Skidmore Governments at the Premier level are Mr Davies Mr Taylor not normally the subject of public Mr H. D. Evans Mr Tonkin discussion and revelation. Mr Grill Mr Wilson Mr Harman Mr Bateman Mr Hodge (Teller) Noes 29- Mr Blaikie Mr O'Connor TRADE UNION: BUILDING WORKERS' Sir Charles Court Mr Old Mr Cowan Mr O'Neil INDUSTRIAL UNION Mrs Craig Mr Ridg Wanneroo Hospital Mr Crane Mr Rushton Dr Dadour Mr Sibson 2. Mr NANOVICH, to the Minister for Mr Grayden Mr Sodeman Labour and Industry: Mr Grewar Mr Hassell mr Stephens Is the action of the Building Workers' Mr Herzfeld Mr Tubby Mr Laurance Mr Watt Industrial Union in connection with the Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams Wan neroo Hospital in accordance with Mr McPharlin Government policy? Mr Mensaros Mr Shaltrs Mr Nanovich (Teller) Mr O'CONNOR replied: Pairs No. Courses are open through the Ayes Noes industrial arbitration system.' for Mr T. D. Evans Mr P. V. Jones Mr T. J. Burke Mr Coyne aggrieved unions to appeal. However, a Dr Troy Mr Carko minority of unions appear not to want to Amendment thus negatived. abide by the system, and take the law into their own hands. Their actions may Debate (on Morion) Resumed be likened to the protection rackets in operation overseas which are Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr objectionable to the Government and to MacKinnon. the majority of the community. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: SPECIAL SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands-Premier) 112.22 a.m.iJ: I move- TRANSPORT: ROAD That the House at its rising adjourn until Truck Drivens' Protet: Mfinister's Statement 10.30 a.m. today (Thursday). 3. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for Question put and passed. Transport: Is the Minister correctly reported in The House adjourned at 12.23 a.mi. (Thursday). West Australian of the 7th April as QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE having told the police that the truck drivens' protest should be dealt with "in CHI1TLEBOROUGH, DR G. a low-key manner"? If "Yes", why did Premier's Discussions with Victorian Government he tell the police this, and have the 1.Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: police acted on the basis of this direction? In view of his eagerness to deny unequivocally conversations with the As to his words "a low-key manner"- Director of WAIT concerning an (a) did he mean that no photographs or electoral reform pamphlet when asked a film should be taken of the question without notice yesterday, why protesting truckies; 518 518[ASSEMBLY]

(b) did he mean that the names of Approximately two years ago agreement protesting truckies should not be was reached with the council that the taken; Public Works Department would carry out a research project of three years' (c) did he mean that the police should duration which would lead up to a firm not harass or appear to harass the recommendation as to a suitable means protesting truckies; or, of restoring the beaches. The Public (d) did he mean that any minor, or Works Department has, over the past other offences committed by the few years, carried out a general coastal truckies should be ignored? engineering study involving beach profile surveys, near-shore geological If his answers to (a) to (d) are "No", investigations, wave studies, etc. for this what did the Minister mean? purpose. An interim report was provided to the council in October, 1978, and a Mr RUSHTON replied: final report is expected to be provided during the financial year 1979-80, which If I remember the article correctly, there will include recommendations for a were many reported statements which further works programme. The were totally incorrect and untrue. department has agreed with the council that any programme jointly approved will be funded on the basis of $I from the council to $3 State. The proposed works programme for 1979-80 involves the total expenditure of $28 000 of LOCAL GOVERNMENT which $7 000 will be required from the Cot tesloc Town Council: Beach Pro blemns council and $21 000 required from the State. 4. Mr HASSELL, to the Treasurer: LOCAL GOVERNMENT (1) Is the Treasurer aware of the statement Metropolitan City Councils: Constitution reported in The West Australian today, page 65, that the Cottesloc Council has 5. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Local unsuccessfully sought Federal and State Government: funds to help solve the problems of the Cottesloe beaches? My question arises out of the Minister's answer to question No. 344 on today's (2) Is the statement correct? Notice Paper, in which she referred to a (3) What funds, if any, have been provided possible problem faced by the City of to the Town of Cottesloe to assist with Belmont. the problems of Cottesloe beaches? (I ) Is it not a fact that there is a Sir CHARLES COURT replied: similar doubt concerning the City of Stirling and the City of (1) Yes. Gosnells? (2) No. (2) Is the Minister aware of any other council being similarly affected? (3) Significant funds have been provided to combat beach erosion in the coastal area (3) is it a fact, as quoted in this week's for many years. The construction of the South Suburban supplement, that Mudurup Rocks groyne and the Beach after the Belmont City bad advised Street groyne are examples of early the Minister of a legal opinion that works provided by the State it was illegally Constituted, she Government for this purpose. Recently, wrote to the council asking what technical advice has been provided by action the council could suggest? the Department of Conservation and (4) Is it not her responsibility, as Environment, the Department of Minister for Local Government, to Agriculture and the Public Works act to ensure the Local Government Department. Act is correctly adhered to? [Wednesday, 11Ith April, l979J11 519

(5) Will the Minister give an As neither of these figures is close to the undertaking to the House that she, $3000 million estimate used by him as Minister, will accept that when attacking the union pamphlet, is responsibility and initiate action to he now prepared to apologise to the have the problem resolved? union for having misleading information MrTS CR AIG replied; supplied to the Press. (1) to (5) 1 refer the member for Mr MENSAROS replied: Geraldton to the second section of 1 thank the member for Welshpool for my answer, which very clearly the confidence he displays in my ability indicates the matter currently is to answer off-the-cuff a prepared and being examined by the Crown Law typewritten lengthy question without Department "in respect of that notice-which 1 intend to do. Firstly, I particular. municipality, and others am not aware of any statements or which have changed from shires advice by the Minister for Labour and since the inception of the Act". I Industry, referred to by the member for am not prepared at this stage of Welshpool. Secondly, 1 have only the proceedings to comment further to estimates of the cost of this project, include the individual shires the which I have been given not once bul honourable member has seen fit to from time to time for approximately the mention. last 18 months by the joint venturers of As to the rest of the question, I also the North-West Shelf project and by made it clear in my reply that I was officers of my department and other awaiting a Crown Law Department people who are engrossed in following determination in relation to the Act this exercise and who should be taken to and that when I was in receipt of be better informed than a Singapore that determination, I would act in publication which is unknown to me. accordance with it. Consequently, I do not intend to apologise because there is nothing for which I should apologise. ENERGY: GAS North- West Shel? Cost of Development PRITSON 6. Mr JAMIESON, to the Minister for Industrial Development: Fremantle In view of the Minister's endeavour to 7. Mr B. T. BURKE, to the Chief Secretary: disparage the Amalgamated Metal I refer the Minister to his answer to my Workers and Shipwrights Union question No. 329 on today's Notice publication "Australia Ripped Off"' by Paper. From the Minister's answer it claiming among other things that the would appear there are 51 prisoners, 33 statement contained in the publication of whom had no previous record, that the development of the North-West currently serving periods of less than 12 Shetf would be between $4 000 and months fOr the offences to which the $6000 million is incorrect, how does he question referred. As this figure is in reconcile this statement with the fact excess of 10 per cent of the population in that his colleague, the Minister for Fremantle Gaol, would the Minister Labour and Industry, submitted details please take steps to assure himself that to the Labour Ministers conference in any overcrowding which may be Canberra on the 24th November last alleviated by the transfer of suitable indicating that this project was likely to prisoners is so alleviated? cost in excess of 54 000 million in 1977 The SPEAKER: Could I just intervene at value? this point? It appears to me that Can he also reconcile his statement with questions like the one just asked by the the statement to the Singapore seminar member for Balcatta are not those on the North-West Shelf development, which ought to be approved during the that development costs were estimated session of questions without notice. In in excess of $3400 million? my view, his question certainly does not 520 520[ASSEMBLY)

meet the requirement that it be a matter The SPEAKER: Order! of urgency. I would ask members to Mr Bateman: This Parliament is becoming a have regard for the statement I made closed shop. yesterday. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. Point of Order TerminatLion Mr B. T. BURKE: Mr Speaker, there is no The SPEAKER: Order! Notices of motion: I way, apart from your making call the Treasurer. pronouncements from time to time in Mr B. T. Burke: That was an absolutely the manner in which you have just done, stupid decision on a genuine point of that members are able to determine order. When I pointed to the position "urgency". For example, it may be every member would face when asking argued that severe overcrowding at questions without notice, you made a Fremantle Gaol causes tinder box stupid decision like that. Absolutely situations which could become stupid! emergencies. We are already past the The SPEAKER: Order! The House will time before which I am permitted to come to order. Will the Treasurer please place a question on notice for the next proceed with notice of motion No. I ? day, which means a break of some I I Mr B. T. Burke: You have no reputation left, days before I can get a question on not that you had a very good one before notice answered by the Minister. In the today, anyway. meantime, of course, the situation at Fremantle Gaol may have turned into an emergency. Perhaps the Minister might like to answer my question without Withdrawal of Remark notice, and give the House an assurance The SPEAKER: Order! The member for as to the possibility of relieving Balcatta will withdraw that remark. overcrowding at Fremantle Gaol. Mr B. T. Burke: I am quite happy to The SPEAKER: Order! As of now, I will withdraw it. revert to the procedure adopted by Speaker Rodoreda in that questions The SPEAKER: The member for Balcatta without notice will be allowed only when will withdraw the remark in the proper they have been submitted to me before manner, on his feet. the sitting of the House-I will make a Mr Davies: Click your heels! statement later as to the closing time for Mr Skidmore: Throw out your chest! those questions-and only if I agree Mr B. T. BURKE: I am quite happy to there is a degree of urgency in the withdraw that remark, Mr Speaker. subject matter of the question. Mr Bryce: How bloody childish! You would have the place running like a kindergarten. Debate Resumed Mr Davies: The Government now has given Mr B. T. Burke: It was an absolutely absurd three cheers; it is off the hook. decision. The SPEAKER: Order! Mr Bryce: It is a disgrace to the institution of Mr Bryce: How childish can you get! Parliament. Mr Bateman: What a disgraceful Mr B. T. Burke: The point was quite Parliament! genuinely made that unless the Speaker Mr Jamieson: Put the boots in! makes a pronouncement on every question, there is no way of knowing Mr Bryce: Why don't you ban them whether or not a question without notice altogether? will be allowed. It was absolutely stupid. Mr Davies: When did you receive your The SPEAKER: Order! The House will directions? come to order, and interjections will Mr Bryce: Let us have no scrutiny. cease. I call the Treasurer. [Wednesday, 11Ith April, 1979152 521

Sir CHARLES COURT: I move- The SPEAKER: Order! What I am trying to Mr B. T. Burke,. There was nothing do is adopt a reasonable policy in respect controversial or premeditated about the of questions in the House. I said question. yesterday- Opposition members interjected. Opposition members interjected. The SPEAKER: Order! I said yesterday that The SPEAKER: Order! The next member to one of the conditions that must be interject will be named. complied with was that any question Opposition members interjected. without notice had to be about a matter Mr Bryce: I think it is a disgrace. of urgency. After questions without Opposition members interjected. notice were asked yesterday and after I had made my statement I took the trouble to look at the nature of the Points of Order questions which I had allowed."In my Mr DAVIES: Mr Speaker, for how long does view many of them were not questions that threat last? We would like to know that ought to have been allowed. as there will be more interjections before Opposition members interjected. we rise tonight. There will be more than Mr B. T. Burke: Why make a ruling like that one interjection. Do you want us to on a point of order and deliberately make arrangements? If you want our inflame the situation? interjections to be organised. they will Mr Grill: You made a ruling that we were be arranged in order, You can have it not to interject at question time, and we your way. stuck by that ruling. Your decision was Mr O'Connor interjected. quite arbitrary. In my view it was Mr DAVIES: There has just been an premeditated. interjection by the Minister. Are you Mr B. T. BURKE: I would like to move that going to name the Minister for Labour so much of Standing Orders be and Industry? suspended as will allow me to move that The SPEAKER: I am not going to name the this House has no confidence in your Minister, nor am I going to name the Speakership. Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I it is not without regret that I seek leave certainly would hope the Chair will be of the House to have Standing Orders. respected because if it is not we will suspended to permit the motion I have have a shambles. I have been asked how foreshadowed to be moved. this situation could arise. There were Mr HASSELL: Mr Speaker, did you not 109 questions on the notice paper today give the call previously to the Premier? and yesterday there were, I think, 80 How can a motion to suspend Standing questions on the notice paper, and I Orders be moved -when another member allowed 12 questions without notice. I already has the floor? think if members make a search of the The SPEAKER: I agree with the point of records in this place- order raised by the member for Mr Grill: Your decision was quite arbitrary. Cottesloc; it is true I had given the call The SPEAKER: Order! If a search were to the Treasurer. Several points of order made members would find, after a study had been taken and I was dealing with of the number of questions without those. I revert now to the question which notice which have been allowed over the is to be moved by the Treasurer that last five or six years in this place, that I leave be given to-introduce a Dill. have allowed more than any other Mr Bryce: You will only delay things for five Speaker of this Parliament, minutes. Mr Skidmore: We don't say that you have The SPEAKER: That may be so, but we will not. proceed as 1 have Ordered. 522 [ASSEMBLY]

QUEST1IONS ON NOTICE

EDUCATION Mr RIDGE replied: Schools and Hi1gh Schools: Greek Language Generally it is the policy of the Coin- 324. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Educa- mission not to house families withsyoung tion: children above the first floor in flats unless the applicants so request. (1) In how many Western Australian prim- ary and high schools in the Greek last gage taught to studentsi? (2) What is the nature of the courses? (3) Arc there any plans to expand the teach- in; of the Greek language in Western HOUSING Australian schools? A pplican is: Emergency Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: 327. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to Lhe Minister for (1) Mount Lawley Senior High School as Housing: part of the Saturday school of language. (1) How many applicants, classed as enter- (2) Available to anyone from years 7 to 10 gcey by the State Housing Commission, inclusive. have been offered flats by the Commis- (3) The department will conduct courses inl sion and have rejected them in the past any Government secondary school where 12 months? there is sufficient demand, provided teachers are available. (2) Of chat number, how many applicants were made a second offer?

(3) In each case, what was the time which lapsed between the rejection and the HOUSING: APPLICANTS second oiler being mnade?

Emergency, Priority, andr "Wait Torn" Mr RIDGE replied: 325. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for Housing: (1) 201 emergent applicants have declined apartments during the period Ist April. How many applicants for State Housing 978, to 30th March, 1979. Commission assistance are currently listed on an (2) and (3) No records kept. (a) emergency; (b) priority; (0) wait turn, basis?

Mr RIDGE replied: PRISONS (a) Emergent, 182 up to date; frimates and Siaff: Number (b) priority, nil as this category is not 328. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Chief used:, Secretary: (c) Wait turn, as at 28/2/79- (1) As at 1st January in each of the past (1) rental. 6 115. four years, how many prisoners were (2) purchase. 5605. there at each of the minimum, medium and maximum security prisons and at work release centres under the control of the Department of Corrections? 42) As at Ist January in each of the past HOUSING four years, what number of staff were Flats employed at each of these establish- nments? 326. Mr BRIAN BURKE. to the Minister for Housing: Mr UNEIL riplied:- Has the Slte Housing Commission a policy of not allocating flats two or more (1)I and (2) Statistics are not kept as at floors shove ground level to families with 1st January, but as at 30th June in each young children? financial year. [Wednesday, I1ItII April, 1979) 523

The figures as at the 30th June in each of the past four years sum as follows:

Inttto euiy 30/6/75 30/6/76 30/6/77 30/6/78 Tytpuioert In- No. of In- No. of In- No. of In, No. of Tye mates staff mates staff mates staff mates staff Fremantle ._ .. Maximum 398 210 403 220 474 225 463 236 Albany ... .. Medium .. 35 29 39 29 48 32 61 34 Bandyup...... Medium .. 28 40 36 38 36 40 45 49 Broonne Medium .. 2S 13 34 12 43 14 23 16 Bunbury...... Medium .. 56 49 41 46 63 51 64 55 Kalgoorlie. Medium .. 40 13 33 12 44 It 4S 14 Roebourne Medium .. 26 staffed 28 5 31 9 32 12 by Police Barton's Mill Minimum 17 24 3 --.-Is 3 55 Is Brunswick Junction Minimum 18 11 2i3 10 1I 22 11 Gemaldton . Minimum 60 31 57 33 92 35 77 34 Kamnet ... .. Minimum 59 39 65 41 71 37 79 38 Pardetup...... Minimum 29 21 30 22 27 24 so 26 Wooroloc. Minimum 71 59 103 59 103 57 109 60 Wyndham. Minimum 21 8 11 9 27 11 31 11 West Perth Work Release Centre _ Minimum 24 11 29 Highgate Work Re. I1 32 12 29} 12 lease Centtre Minimum East Perth._ Police Gaol "iI staffed i6 Staffed 29 Staffed 48 Staffed by Police by Police, by Police by Polile Total .. 918 558 938 550 1 135 572 1239 625

PRISON (IN) most short term prisoners ate trans- ferred directly from the East Perth Fremantle police gal to outstations following 329. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Chief vetting by the welfare officer sta- Secretary: tioned at East Perth. (I) Now many prisoners in Fremantle goal The data given is based on the position are serving senences of less than 12 as at Thursday, 22nd March, 1979, this months for offences involving: being the most recent ocasion on which (a) disorderly conduct: a survey of this nature was conducted. (b) driving breaches; (a) Disorderly-I sole offence; (c)drunkenness; (b) driving-19 sole offence and 27 (d) possession of marihuana? with other offences; .2) How many of those have no previous (c) drunkenness-2 with other offences; record? (d) possession of marihuana-nil; Mr O'NEIL replied: Ce) disorderly and driving-I with other (1)It is difficult to answer this question in offences; a meaningful manner without some de. tailed explanation. (f) driving and drunkenness-I with (i) Prisoners serving sentences for the other offences. offences indicated are often also (2) Of the 5I prisoners concerned, 31 had serving sentences for other offences no previous record. and may also be facing further charges; (ii) most of these prisoners would be in transit between the Cowlts to outstations via Fremantle Prison with between 20-30 prisoners in the CONSUMER AFFAIRS: MOTOR VEHICLES short term and very short term cate- gories being transferred out of Fre- Dealers: Backyard mantle each week: 330. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for (iii) a few of these short term prisoners Consumer Affairs: are retained at Fremantle Prison Now many 'back yard" car dealers have for employment on work outside been prosecuted in each of the past five the prison perimtneers: and years? 524 [ASSEMBLY)

Mr O'CONNOR replied: Mr RIDGE replied: Priom to August, 1974, prosecution of Statistics for number of maintenance unlicensed motor vehicle dealers was requests received are not regularly vested with ThePolice traffic branch. by recorded on a systematic basis. Period- way of the Used Car Dealers Acm.1964. ical checks on work loads are carried The Motor Vehicle Dealers Act, admin- out to ascerain an average of corn- istered by the Bureau of Consumer plaints or requests dealt with over a Affairs, came into operation in August. nominated period from three main 1974. sources: The following figures are the only ones Telephone coils from tenants available from bureau records: Personal visits to offices 1974 (from August). nione: Reports received through rent col- 1975, none; lectors. 1976, none: These show average requests per month 1977, none; of: 1978, two: Metropolitan area .. 4 400 Country regions... .. 2000 1979 (to date), one. Total average for month .. 6400 The above total is considered a con- sistent average.

HOUSING: BUILDING SOCIETIES HOUSING Terminating and Permnanent: Ersablislhment by SYC Inspectors 331. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for 333. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for Housing: Housing: (1) Has consideration been given to estab- How many inspectors were employed by lishing terminating and permanent build- the Stale Housing Commission on Ws ing societies operated by and in con- January. 1979 and on Ist January in junction with the State Housing Com- each of the preceding five years? mission lo give the commission greater access to funds?~ Mr RIDGE replied: 12) If "Yes" what was the nature and re. As at 1st January: .stilt of ainy consirion? 1974-22. 31 If "No" witl he cause such considera- 1975-29. tion to he given to lhis queotion? 1976-31. 1977-32. 1978-32. Mr RIDGE replied: 1979-32. (1) Yet. (2) and (3) This matter has been con- sidered from time to time over recent years. No proposition has been HOUJSING developed which will give the State Housing Commission greater access to Parliamn~etary Liaiso 0&ie funds and at the same time stay within 334. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for the Loon Council rules so as to produce Housing: a net increase in funds available to the State. How many people were employed in the Parliamentary liaison office of the Slte Housing Commission on Ist January of each year since 1974?

Mr RIDGE replied: HOUSING 1st January Number Maintenance 1974 3 1975 ...... 4 332. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for Housing: 1976 ...... 4 How many maintenance requests have 1977 ...... 4 been received by the State Housing Com- 1978 ...... 3 mission in each of the Past 12 months? '979 ...... 2 [Wcdaiesday, I1Ith April, 1979J 525

HOUSING HOUSING: PURCHASE Emergency: Aborigines Legal Fees 115. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for 337. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for. Houting: Housing: Referring to the State flouting Commis- Whatt was the effect on the level of legal sio's requirement Ahat applicants for fees paid by State Housing Commission emergency assistance have an address applicants, of the decision to channel for inspection, how is this requirement all purchase home finance through ter- applied to "fringe" and "bush" dwelling minating building societies? Aboriginals?

Mr RIDGE replied: An applicant is interviewed wherever Mr RIDGE replied:. he/she is living, whether it be at a camp or somewhere else. The applicant is Only Building society clients way be charged required to advise where he/she is living up to 2/3 of the fees set by the Law anid how he/she can be contacted for Socieiy sVlsich (or a -loan of $27 000 ik inspection interview. $145. In practice, the charge varies from The only exception is where the address $40 to $145.% is given as cure of the Post Office. The State Housing Commission charge fur preparation of documents is $20.

HOUSING: RENTAL Purchase by Tenwuis

336. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for HOUSING Housing: (1) How many requests to purchase homes Units Completed and Pro jected in which they are living have been re- 338. Mr BRIAN BURKE. sO the Minister for ceived by the State Housing Commission ins each of the past three years from Housing: tenants in occupation? (1) How many units of accommodation were (2) How many applicants were- completed by the State Housing Com- mission in each year from 1974 to (a) approved: 1977? hIb rejected? (2) How many of these were- 03) In how many instances%did the commis- sion provide finance either directly or (a) fists: through a terminating building society? (b) duplexes: (0) town houses; Mr RIDGE replied: (1) to (3) This information is not recorded Id, single houses? and could be produced only by a (3I How many units in each of These lengthy process of tearching personsl categories were projected for construction files. I am not prepared to divert staff in 1977-78? from necessary day to day activities in order to carry out the necessary Mr RIDGE replied: searching, (1) and (2)

Rental

Year Flats Duplex Town Single Purchase Abor Ina units houses houses Housin 232 92 496 413 440 135 1974/751973/74 86 Q2 248 166 373 219 156 14 93 ISO 377 50 1916/771975/76 .. 434 96 28 170 160 64* 1977/78 163 212 106 566 251 39

(3) Not applicable: answered by (I1)and (2). 526 526ASSEMBLY]

HOUSING: PURCHASE (5) Why has the Government allowed a situation whereby under its policies lInd Repaymeent Rates developers can obtain information which 339. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for is confidential to others and can make Housing: large profits from its knowledge, whilist (J) Under present State Housing Commis- councillors are unable to use the same sion purchase policy, what is the maxi- information to protect their ratepayers? mum monthly payment rate which would be paid by a purchaser who hod the Mrs CRAIG replied: full deposit and legal fees required and (1) to (4) The question is not based on fact. who borrowed the maximum amount (5) It is the policy of the Government not available. assuming the bond rate re- to release confidential information with. mains at its present level? out its proper authorization. 'This policy (2) As in the preceding case, what would the will continue to be adhered to. maximum monthly repayment rate be if the purchaser referred to obtained a second mortgage of $I1500 at 17 per cent as has been the case? HOUSING Girrawheen Mr RIDG0E replied: (1) The maximum repayment an a loan of 341. Me~ BRIAN BURKE, to the Minister for 127 000 at the maximum interest rate of Housing: 9 per cent over a loan tern of 30 years For what period or periods was the is $218.00 per month. Al 6 per cent, State Housing Commission propert at and similar other terms, the repayment is 62 Girrawheent Avenue, Girrawbet, 5162.00 per month. vacant during 1978 and 1979? (2) The repayment on a second mortgage loan of $1 500 at interest rate of 17 per Mr RIDGE replied: cent over a loan ternmof 7 years is Continuously fronm 5th December, 1978 $47.76 per month. to 4th February. 1979. As from today, 95 per cent of loan is being made available. Therefore, the second mortgage is not necessary. On this new maximum loan of $28 500 EDUCATION: SCHOOLS the repayment over 30 years at 9 per Montrose, Waddington. end Xoondoolo cent is $231.00 per month, and at 6 per cent is $171.00 per month. 342. Mr WILSON. to the Minister for Educa- tion: (1) What is the number of year 7 children attending the following primary schools; LOCAL GOVERNMENT (a) Montrose primary school; Con fldenia) Injormatioir (b) Waddington primary school; (c) Koondloola primary school? 340, Mr DlAVIES, to the Minister for Urban (2) What Development and Town Planning: are the projected numbers of year 7 children for 1980 and 1981 at the same (1) Is she aware that the chairman of the primary schools? Metropolitan Region Planing Auth. ority has advised representatives of one (3) What is the number of year 8. 9, 10, 11 council that a lower level of confiden- and 12 students in each year at the tiality is expected from council officers? Girrawlteen Senior Nigh School? (2) In respect to which matters is a lower (4) What are the projected numbers for each level of confidentiality expected? year at the same school in 1980 and 1981? (3) Is the -chairmtan's advice based on the policy announced by the Premier on the (5) What is the capacity in terms of student release of information, which resulted numbers of the Oirrawhee,, Senior Nigh from the misuse of confidential infor- School? mation by a member of the Main Roads (6) In view of these figures, whea does the Departmaent? department anticipate that there will be (4) Does the chtairman's advice constitute a need for a high school in iKoondoola? an alteration, to the policy announced by the Premier on the 271h November, 1978, Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: which, in effect, allows information to be In view of the length and complexity of freely given to land developers which .an answer to the above question the local government bodies must treat as -member will receive an answer by letter confidential? in due course. [Wednesday. I11th April, 1979152 527

HEALTH: NOISE Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (1) to (4) 1 have beard and read Abatentenr Act:, Amendments with some amusement about the speculation sur- 143- Mr HODGE, to the Minister for Health: rounding my potitical future. Further to question 47 of 1979, otn what The member's concern about my person date did he receive the request from the would be very touching if only it had a Public Health Department suggesting genuine ring about it. However, knowing that the Government should make his motives, I can%only tell him I am amendments to the Noise Abatement far too busy and far too fit and well to Act? even give a second thought to the mat- ters about which he is concerned, Mr YOUNG replied: I suggest he is a little premature and Submitted to me on 30th March, 1979 he might put the question on the notice and considered on 2nd April, 2979. paper in a few years time; if he is still in this place, by which time I might get around to giving it some thought. LOCAL GOVERNMENT Mfetropolitan City Councils: Consitelion 344. Mr CARR, to the Minister for 1=0a Gov- erment: POLICE (1) Is it (act that at least three and possibly more than three city Councils in the Fojotbrslers: Assault of Players metropolitan area are incorrectly con- 346. M~rBERTRAM, to the Minister for Police stituted? and Traffic: (2) If so>- (1) Does he intend to take action this season (a) which cities are involved: to enforce the law in respect of foot- (b) how has the situation arisen; bailers who clearly assault other players or persons ins obvious breach of the (c) what are the implications of such a state of affairs; Criminal Code? - (d) what action has she taken to resolve (2) If "No", why? the matter? Mr O'NEIL replied: Mrs CRAIG replied: (1) and (2) Police in their discretion will (1) and (2) The City of Belmont has raised nut take action if it appears that the the question of whether its membership matter can adequately be dealt with by conforms with the provisions of the the tribunal. Local Government Act as a consequence of its recent change from shire to city status. The matter is currently being examined by Crown Law in respect of that par- ticular municipality and others that have HEALTH changed from a shire sinice the inception Heroin! Use for Term inal Patients of the Act. I will determine whether any action, 347. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for Health: needs to be taken as soon as Crown Law (1) Has the Government taken any action advice is received. to allow medical practitioners to admn- later heroin to ease pain and help persons who are suffering terminal cancer and other painful, terminal conditions? MINISTER OF THE CROWN (2) If "No" why? Premier: Retirement fromt Politics 345. Mr BERTRAM, to the premier: Mr YOUNG replied: (1) Is he aware of speculation that he will (1) No. shortly retire from politics? (2) The importation of heroin is controlled (2) What has caused this speculation or is by the Commonwealth Government. it simply irresponsible and unjustified However, I am aware of representations reporting? to the Commonwealth Government to permit the reintroduction of heroin for (3) (a) If the speculation is inaccurate has medical use in such cases. The issue is to he denied it; be examined at the next meeting of the (b) if so, where and when? national standing committee onbcontrol (4) If the speculation is factually based, will of drugs of dependence on which West- he confirm it? ern Australia is represented. 528 528[ASSEMBLY]

SMALL CLAIMS TRIBUNAL TRAFFIC: MOTOR VEHICLES Cost of Reference Dealers: Newv and Used Cart 348. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for Labour 350. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for Labour and Industry: and Industry: (1) Did he recently increase by 50% or (1) Is it the Government's intention to more the cost of a reference to the Small abandon or ease the present trading Claim Tribunal? hours for new and used car dealers? (2) (a) If "Yes" why did he do this, (2) If "Ye-. (b) how did he calculate the amount of (a) when; this additional burden to consumers? (b) why?

Mr O'CONNOR replied: Mr O'CONNOR replied: (I) Yes-froma $2 to $3 for filing a small (1) and (2) No. claim. (2) (a) and (b) Jurisdiction of the tribunal was increased in August, 1977 to ENERGY: ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES provide for a small claim to be in. creased from less; than $500 to less Glenda tough than $t1000. This has caused an increase in claims lodged which 351. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for Fuel means added operating costs of the and Energy: tribunal. (1) is it a fact that the State Energy Corn- mission is charging tenants of the units situated at 16 Leeder Street, Glendalough a meter reading fee of $6.00? (2) (a) It "Yes" why is this fee so high; (b) how is it calculated; and TRANSPORT (c) when was it first charged? Bus: Forrestlield Services Mr MENSAROS replied: 349. Mr BATEMAN, to the Minister for (1) and (2) There is no meter-reading Transport: charge. There is however, a fixed charge In view of the possible lack of bus ser- of $6.00 raised as an integral part of vices in the Forrestfield area to carry the domestic tariff. passengers to the metropolitan area and That charge has now been increased to other nearby surrounding suburbs, will S7.50. he advise: The fixed charge is raised to cover those (I) Is he aware of the number of people costs associated with the supply to a working in the Midtand, Carnington customer's property irrespective of the and Canning Vale areas who live in amount of energy consumed. Forresthield and require such a service? (2) If "Yes" will he give attention to ROAD upgrading this service to cater for Tyler Street the transport needs of that particular are? 352. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for Police and Traffic: (3) If not, why not? (1) Has he Yet replied to the City of Stirling's letter dated 27th February, 1979 request- Mr RUSHTON replied: ing approval to close Tyler Street at its (1) The exact numbers are not known. intersection With Cape Street, Tuart Hill? (2) and (3) The MIT constantly moni- (2) If 'Yes" when and to what effect? ton the demand for bus services (3) It "No" when will he do so? to and from all suburban areas. To date there have not been any Mr O'NEIL replied: indications that present services to (1) Yes. and from Forresifield are not ade- quate to meet the demands placed (2) The town clerk has been advised that on them. the legality of the proposal is being The MIT will continue to monitor examined. the situatiost (3) Not applicable. [Wednesday, IiIbt April, 1979152 529

HEALTH4- DRUGS DAIRYING: MILK Pushing Skim 353. Mr BERTRAM, to the Premier: 356. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Agricul- What actions has his Government taken ture: so far to stop the pushing of each of (1) Was skim milk powder shipped from the the following drugs: Eastern States to Western Australa ist year? (a) heroin; 41) cannabis; (2) If so, how much of the total used casme (c) marihuana; from the Eastern States?- (d) alcohol; (3) Is skim milk powder coming from (e) cigarettes? the Eastern States again this yeas? (4) If so, does this indicate a shortage of Sir CH4ARLES COURT replied:' skim milk powder being produced in Western Australia? Government has (a), (b) and (c) The (5) If "Yes" to (4), why? been to the fore among the Stales in legislating for increased maxi- mum penalties in line with recoin- Mr OLD replied: mendations of the national standing The information sought is not readily control committee on drugs of available from statistical sources but dependence. will be provided to the member as soon Police activity in the field of detec- as possible. tion and prosecution of drug of- fenders has increased. The State is Co-operating fully with POLICE the Australian Royal Commission of inquiry into Drugs established by Computers the Commonwealth Government 357. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Police with the concurrence of the States. and Traffic:; (d)and te) it is assumed that in ans- (1) Have the police taken actiont in recent wering (a), (b) and (c) "pushing" years to purchase a computer? refers to the illegal sale of the drugs (2) If so, was the purchase put to tender? mentioned. The sale or provision of alcohol and cigarettes is not illegal (3) If not, why not? and "~pushing" does not occur. (4) Was a committee formed to assess the suitability of various forms of com- puters? (5) If so, who were its members sod who did they represent? 354. This qijdtW was i'fhdraw-n. (6) Did the members travel to other States to view and/or assess computers in those States? (7) If so, to which States and when? (8) Who paid for the cost of the visit/visits? COMMUNITY WELFARE (9) Which company was awarded the con- tract for purehase and/or installation of Intrmationgal Year ol Me Chil'd the computer? 355. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: (10) What was the original price? (1) Has the W~estern Australian Govern- (11) Has that price since altered? nient responded to the Federal Govern- (12) If so, why? ment's dollar for dollar offer usp to $4 000 for grants for the International Year of the Child? Mr O'NEIL replied: (1) to (4) Yes. (2) If so, what projects will be commenced? (5) Sergeant A. R. Paslsley-Otlicer-in- (3) If "No" to (1), why has no response been forthcoming in view of every other * Charge, Police EDP centre; State's and Territory's official acceptance? R. Severn-Analyst, Police EDP centre; * K. O'Neil-Public Service Board; K. Smith-Director, ADP Treasury De- Sir CHARLES COURT replied: partmnent, (0) and (3) Yes. (6) Yes. Sergeant A. R. Pashley and R. Sev- (2) Details are not yet available. ern. 530 [ASSEMBLY]

(7) Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, Mr RIDGE replied: South Australia and New Zealand-4ep- (1) Rental .. 98 units ... ember, 1977. Aboriginal ...... 4 units (8) Air fares and part accommodation by Total .... l02 units Police Department, part accommodation (2) and (3) by the two companies finally selected for close evaluation, IBM and Sperry e it Ialit3B/R 43/ft SE/a Univac. Caucasian(Rental) 54 76 65 4 Nil Currnt rana af Agit Oct. Mat. Oct. (9) IBM Aust. Ltd. attounuon . 1 6 1977 t977 1977 Aboriginal .. L I I Nil Nil Current month or Mair. I~ Dee. (10) Accepted tender was (or lease of small aitneatir ... L579 t6 L977 central processor unit for 12 months for development purposes, with update to larger processor after 12 months. Lease price $20 413 per month. (11) and (12) Price of original. equipment in HOUSING tender specification has only altered to IKarratha allow for inclusion of inflation allow- ances. Some items of hardware have 360. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Comn- been decreased in lease price. msunity Wlfe: (1) Ras his department expressed an altitude to proposals for housing the expected influx of workers to Karratha if the North-West Shelf gas project proceeds? HOUSING (2) Ifso, what suggestions have been made? Karrtuh Mr YOUNG replied: 358. Mr DAVtES, to the Minister for Homing: (1) yes. Will he table the various plans being considered for housing the expected coo- (2) Comment was made on the Department strutiton workforce and permanent work- of Industrial Development's town site force which Karraths will gain if the developments' committee's draft report North-West Shelf gas project proceeds? entitled "Dampier/Karratha Accommo- dation Plan". The deparinent's response ws on a Mr RIDGE replied:, confidential basis. Planning for this requirement is with the Minister for Industrial Development. The General Manager of the State Homs- ing Commission is a member of the CONSERVATION AND THE planning and co-ordinating authority and ENVIRONMENT the commission is also represented on the townsites development committee. IKornnlso Towasite: Representative on Departent of l,,dnsrrial Dev'elopmntt As members, the commission is kept Commite informed as to the projected consequen- lial housing demand and consideration 361. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Conser- will be given to the necessary home vation and the Environment: building programme when the need (1) Is there a representative of the Depart- arises, osent of Enrvironment on the Depart ment of Industrial Development's town site committee which deals with the development of Karratha towosite?

H-OUSING (2) If "No" why not? (3) Did his Karrarhs and Dam pier department ask to be represented on the committee? 359. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Housing: (1) How many State Housing Commission Mr O'CONNOR replied: homes are there in Rarratha? (1) No. (2) How many people from Karratha and ()The committee deals with many matters Dampier ire on waiting lists for State other thtan environ mental ones and where Rousing Commission accommodation? environmental issues are involved the (3) How long is the waiting period for Department of Conservation and Envir- accommnodatioo with each of the cate- onment is available to give advice. gories of accommodation available? (3) No. (Wednesday, 11th April, 1979153 531

TRANSPORT (2) Do those minutes allege that the State Energy Commission officers. clisned that Air: Blind Persons the State Energy Commission bad 362. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Transport: breached Award No. 19 of 1975? (1) Referring to pant (2) of my question (3) Do the minutes also record that members 256 of 1979, what criteria are used of the Federated Engine Drivers Union to judge whether a blind person is and the Australian Metal Workers and capable of trvelling alone? Shipwrights Union had complained that (2) If a blind person is capable of travelling they were being harassed and victimised alone without a guide dog, are they by the State Energy Commission adinin- eligible for a 50% reduction? istration? (3) Will he advise me of the reults of his (4) Will he check the accuracy of the con'- representations to the afrlincwhten they plaints referred to in pant (3) of this ate received? question? (5) How many resignations have been made Mr RUSHTON replied: within the last 12 months at- (1) None. The decision as to whether blind (a) Redbank power station;, persons trawel alone is left to the indivi- (b) Broome power station; dual concerned. (c) Derby power station? (2) No. (6) In what categories have the resignations (3) Yes. occurred? (7) Is he aware that further resignations may occur because of the attitudtm of the 363. This queti on was postponed. State Energy Commission administration?

TRAFFIC: PEDESTRIAN CROSSINGS Mr MENSAROS replied:. Underpass: .Sheppeflon Road (1) Yes. No minutes were taken of the 364, Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Transport: meeting at the Redbank power station on the 29th March 1979 but a union (t) Will urgent consideration be given to abridged version of proceedings has providing a pedestrian underpass in been received from Messrs C. E, Shepperlon Road between Harvey and Muinme, FEDFU Organiser and J. Duncan Streets, so that school children, Scales, AMWSU Acting Organiser. blind persons and others who must cross the road can do so in safety? (2) The union notes allege that a Mr Perry (2) Is he aware that a small girl wa conceded an award breach-but this is knocked down. by a car in this area on denied. Thursday, 5th April? (3) The union notes allege harassment and victimisation. Mr Perry denied the Mr RUSHTON replied: accusations in discussions and requested (1)Joint funding by Perth City Council from the union officials and shop ste- and Main Roads Department is pro- ward details of actual complaints instead posed for 1979/80. This will enable an of generalisations. underpass near Harper Street to be con- structed during next financial year. (4) Have not yet been informed of any (2) Yes. - specific case. (5) from permanent employees at- (a) Redbank power station-I; ENERGY: ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES (b) Droome power atation-3 Power Stations: Redhank. Broomse (c) Derby power station-7 and Derby (6) Engine drivens. 365. Ms DAVIES, to the Minister !or Fuel and Greasers. Energy: Mechanical luecrs and assistants. (I) Further to mnyquestion 257 of 19791, has Electrical fitters. be received correspondence from the Australian Metal Workers and Ship- Trades assistants. wrighta Union containing the minutes of Cleaners. a meeting held at Redbank power station on 29th March this year? (7) No. 532 532[ASSEMBLYI

GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND 03) Under existing flexitime provisions, STATUTORY AUTHORITIES which the Government believes are ade- quate, inquiry facilities can be provided Office Hours up to 6.00 p.m. where necessary. An ex- 366. Mr DAVIES, to the Premier: tension of hours to 9.00 p.m. could only (I) Referring to the answer to question 115 be provided by paid overtime, and this of 1979. is is not a fact that most is not proposed. employees in private enterprise work (4) Where there has been a denmonstrated until after 4.30 p.m., and hence, in some need to provide an improved, service, cases find it difficult to conduct over the extended facilities have been introduced. counter business with Government It should be appreciated that public departments and instrumentalities? servants, like other Citizens, desire to (2) Would it not be of considerable benefit enjoy the late shopping facilities and for to the public if employees of Govern- the same reasons. ment departments and instrumentslities (S) No. could work till 5.30 p.m. on weeknights (excluding Thursday) and until 9.00 (6) 5.00 p.m. p.m. on Thursday, on she basis that they (7) 9.00 p.m. would be paid overtime? (8) Counter Business to 5 p.m.- (3) Could fiexitime be introduced to :over Department of Industrial Development the hours suggested in part (2) of this State Government Insurance Office question? Tourism (4) In view of the Government's willingness (Up to 9 p.m. on Thursdays) to allow extended trading hours to Private Public Service Board enterprise on the premise that the public Government Stores will obtain improved service, why is it Telephone Inquiries to 5 p.m. unwilling to provide an improved service Department of Industrial Development in respect of its own organisations? State Government Insurance Office (Also 24 hour telephone service) (5) Has the Government conducted investi- gations to ascrtain. whether there are Tourism advantages or disadvantages to the Public Service Board Corrections public because Government departments Crown Law Department close at 4.30 p.m.? Town Planning Department (6) At what time does the State Govern- ment information centre close each night of tbe week? ROAD

(7) At what hour does the W.A. Govern- Great Northeris Highwray ment Travel Centre close on Thursdays? 367. Mr HERZFELD, to the Minister for (9) Which departments remain open until Transport: 5.00 p.m. or later each night from Monday to Friday? (1) Would he indicate the purpose, nature and cost of the work currently in pro- gress on Great Northern Highway insthe vicinity of lane Brook? Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (1) A detailed survey would be necesary to (2) Does this foreshadow further improve- establish whether most employees in ments to the highway between Middle private enterprise work until after Swan Road and the Upper Swan bridge? 4.30 p~m. (3) If "Yes" would he indicate the nature However it is apparent large numbers of of the work and when it is proposed it the workforce employed in banks, be undertaken? insurance companies, commercial organisations. manufacturing establish- Mr RUSHTQN replied: ments and the building industry cease (I) The work involves- duty between 4.00 p.m. and 5.00 p.m. (a) widening of the two bridges cross- The main group to work to 5.30 p.m1. are ing Jane Brook on she highway persons employed in retail trading and providing a concrete overlay establishments. Any extension of Gov- on the deck of one of. them. The ernment office hours would not assist estimated cost of the work is these people. $42 000. (2) There is no evidence available to the (b) reconstruction and sealing of the Government to show there would be con- approaches to the two bridges at siderable benefit to the public in extend- ankestimated coat of $53 000. ing Government office hours to 5.00 p.m. (2) end (3) Yes, but as yet no Airm plans on week nights and 9.00 p~m. on Thurs- for improvement of the section have days. been developed. (Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979153 533

ENERGY INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT: DEPARTMENT Nuclear: Re/erendum 368. Mr BATEMAN, to the Premier: "Western Australian Business Letter" In view of the attitude being adopted 371. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Industrial by the Swedish Government to hold a Development: referendum to decide the future of (1) What was the total coat of the distribu- nuclear energy in that country. will he tion of Western Australian Business Let- advise: ter by his department, including postage (1) Will he give the people of Western and handling costs, foe each issue in Australia the same'demnocratic right the last 12 months? to decide the future energy needs, especially in respect of nuclear (2) Was a contract let for the service? energy? (3) If not, why not? (2) If not, why not? (4) On what basis was a decision made to Sir CHARLES COURT replied: use Lipscombe & Associates newsletter? (1) and (2) The Western Australian' (5] What are the production costs per copy Government's policies on nuclear for Lipscombe & Associates? power ate very clear and well known by the people of Western (6) How many copies are distributed in each Australia. They have voted us into issue? office on the basis of these policies. (7) Are they all distributed without charge? At the time of the next election we will again clearly slate our policies on nuclear power, uranium mining, uranium processing and waste dis- Mr MENSAROS replied: posal. This we regard as a demo- (I) WA Business Letter:. Packaging, hand- cratic, practical and sensible way ling, and postage for. regular mail dis- Of getting a response from the tribution are: electorate. 1978 March quarter for 640 copies-- $3 15.24. 1978 June quarter for 800 copies- CONSUMER AFFAIRS $38 t.78. Beer Prices 1978 September quarter for 3 300 copies-3$737.17. to the Minister for Con- 369. Mr BATEMAN, 1978 December quarter for 3 686 sumer Affairs: copies-S$i 188.20. With reference to question 79 of Thurs- Total $2 622.39. day, 61h April, will he advise: (2) Why does 8 025. of beer, no matter (2) No. Distribution is done internally by what size container it is sold in, departmental staff or externally by out- cast 10 cents more in Western side agents such as Act iv Industries, Australia that any other State? Good Samaritan Industries etc. (2) Will he advise why diet beer made (3) Arrangements can be made without con- in Western Australia is sold at the tracts. same price as imported'diet beer from the Eattern States? (4) It was deemed advantageous to augment the departmental promotional material Mr O'CONNOR replied: with a publication expressing a private sector economic overview (1) and (2) Not known. of Western Australia. It was further considered that Lipscombe and Associates were best qualified in this area. Recent reports EDUCATION indicate that the publication is very highly regarded in international busi- School: Afillen Special ness circles. 370. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Edisca- (5) Production costs per capy' are not in- lion: voiced to the department. (1) Are any changes proposed to the status of Millen special school? (6) See answer to (I) above. Currently the department is endeavouring to have 6 000 (2) If so, what are these changes and when copies distributed. will they take place? (7) Departmental literature is available free Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: of charge on request; this includes the (1) and (2) No. WA Business Letter. 534 534[ASSEMBLY]

CONSUMER AFFAIRS CONSUMER AFFAIRS Cycles Motor Vehicle Delers: Unlicensed 372. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister (or Con- 374, Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- sumer Affairs: sumer Affairs: (1) Has he or the Consumer Affairs Bureau (1) Has he or his department had discus- been consulted on the new standards sions recntly with the Western Aus- which are to be approved for pedal tralian Automobile Chamber of Com- bicycles? merce with respect to the operations of (2) If so, what are the details? the Motor Vehicle Dealers Act, partict- larly in connection With nlicensed (3) How does the State Government fit into dealing? the standard-making procedure for such articles? (2) If so, what has been the outcome? (4) Will WheSlate Government have a role in the enforcing of the standards? Mr O'CONNOR replied: (5) If so, what are the details? (I) Yes. (2) Possible co-operative awroaches by the Mr O"CONNOR replied: chamber end the teparinents concerned (1) Yes. are still under discussion. (2) and (3) The Commissioner for Con- sumerT Affairs is a member of the Consumer Standards Advisory Com-. mittee of the Standards Association of Australia. In that role he receives drafts of all standards relating to con- CONSUMER AFFAIRS sumer products. Wish suitable technical Microwave Ovens advice he comments upon the drafts. He also receives copies of the final stand- 375, Mir TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- ards when they are published. sumer Affairs: (4) and (5) Under the Consumer A ffafrs (2) Has the Consumer Affairs Bureau re- Act, as amended last year by this Gov- ceived complaints that there are long ernment, pursuant to section 23U delays in receiving parts for the Sharp (which I commend to the attention of microwave oven, parts for which appar- the member), regulations may be made ently have to come from Japan? which maiy adopt, wholly or in part. (2) What remedy is available? either specifically or by reference, any Australian standard or any of the standard rules, codas, or specifications of Mr O'CONNOR replied: the Standards Association of Australia. (1) No. In the case of pedal bicycles, regula- tions are now ink preparation by Par- (2) Appropriate action will be taken if comn- liamentary Counsel to adopt Australian plaints arise. Standard 1927 of 1978.

POLICE FUEL Fraud Squad: Freeworid Motors Petrol: Price Dljlerentlaf 373. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Police 376. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- and Traffic: sumer Affairs: (1) Is the fraud squad investigating Free- Adverting to question 222 of 5th April, world Motors of 797 Beaufort Street, 1979: Mt. Lawley? (1) What is meant when the attement (2) If so, what is the nature of the comn- 7 is made that the Consumer Affairs plaint Bureau is "monitoring- prices? (3) Is part of sie investigation related to the (2) Would such monitoring include a failure of Freeworld Motors to pay out determination as to whether price to Citicorp moneys owed to it on a differentials as between different Holden Kingswood Station wagon reg- centres in the State were justified istered No. XCN 5137 an the grounds of freight costs? (3) Are the price differenitiala referred Mr O'NEIL replied: to in question 222 justified by any (1) to (3) No. criteria? [Wednesday, I11th April, 19791 5353

Mr O'CONNOR replied: CONSUMER AFFAIRS (1) The statement means simply that Keepy Krawly Swimming Pool Vacuum the bureau is examining and record- Cleaner ing prices in some field usually as the result of a specific request. 379. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- (2) No. However, in some inquiries the sumer Affairs: bureau has expressed the view that (1) Has the Consumer Affairs Dureau re- price differentials between different ceived any complaints with respect to centres were justified on the grounds the tale or advertising of the Kreepy of the freight casts. Krnwly swimming pool vacuum cleaner? (3) Not known. (2) if so, what are the details?

TRANSPORT: AIR Mr O'CONNOR replied: (1) and (2) No, although some complaints Fares: Domestic have been received about the perform- 377. Mr TONKIN, to the Premlir ance of the unit. Will he make a Statement to the House indicating the Government's attitude regarding the cost of domestic air fares so that: (a) there may be public knowledge of COMPANIES AND SECURITIES SCHEME the Government's role in this mat- ter; and Working Party and Commission (b) there may be debate on the subject? 380. Mr TON KIN, to the Minister representing Sir CHARLES COURT replied: the Attorney General: The Government has made numerous (1) When is the report of she working party statements on its attitude to domestic air of Commonwealth and State officers in- fares and hs been in close conversation vestigating the possible introduction of a with the Commonwealth Government national companies and securities and domestic airlines for a considerable scheme expected to be presented? period of time. Thet Government's (2) Is it expected that there shall be estab- attitude is straightforward and unequi- lished a national companies and securi- vocal; namely, that it considers domestic ties commission? air fares too high if the full tourist and other travel potential is to be developed. Mr O'NEIL replied: Some of the fruits of our l-abours will be apparent in a statement soon to be issued (1) There is no such working party and, by the Federal Minister for Transport. hence, no report expected. In fact, I understand it has been issued (2) Yes. today.

CONSUMER AFFAIRS Nurfanns of Aurrralia TAK E-O VERS 378. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- sumer Affairs: 1 Legislation (1) Is the Consumer Affairs Bureau con- 381. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister representing cerned at the advertisements of "Nut- the Attorney General: farms of Australia"? (l) Will the Attorney General table the (2) What are the details? draft legislation on take-oven3 which has been devised by Commonwealth and Mr O'CONNOR replied: State Ministers? (I) and (2) The bureau has become con- (2) Are Comments on the Bill being invited? -cerned generally about the operations of (3) If to, what is the deadline for such this company for two main reasons. submissions? firstly, technical advice received froms the Department of Agriculture casts some Mr O'NEIL replied: doubt on the viability of the scheme. Secondly, and more importantly, the (I) There was an officers' working draft company's clearing licence for the land which is now being substantially revised. concerned ls been revoked. It is nut a suitable document to table. Investment in this scheme would now (2) and (3) Comments were publicly have to be regarded as fraught with invited last year with a deadline of 28th risk. February, 1979, 536 536[ASSEMBLY]

BUSY BEE PERSONNEL EMPLOYMENT (4) Will his Government consider amending AGENCY the Industrial Arbitration Act with a view to deleting the loophole whereby Fees, Inspections, and Complaints life appointments to trade union posi- 382. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Labour tions can be made? and Industry:. (1) Will he table the scale of fees of the Sir CHARLES COURT replied: Busy Bee Personnel Employment (1) The State Government has policies on Agency which has been approved by the industrial, relations which are appropriate Department of Labour pursuant to the to the State jurisdiction. Policies outlined Employment Agents Act? in the document referred to are not (2) Upoin which dates have the books of the necessarily appropriate to this State. agency been inspected during the past 12 (2) Democratic control of unions by mem- months? bers is Consistent with State Government (3) Have complaints been received that any policy. agencry is acting illegally by charging (3) and (4) Senior Commissioner Kelly in employees more than employers in con- his review of..the Industrial Arbitration travention of section 36 of the Act? Act has covered the issue of democratic control of unions and the matter of life Mr O'CONNOR replied: appointment of union officials. His pro- posals are being considered by the Gov- (1) The scale of fees of the Busy Bee Per- ernment. sonnel Employment Agency approved to operate on and from the 81h May, 19789 is: 50 per cent of the first full working week's gross salary for a full time posi- t-on and/or $25 from the first full working week for a permanent casual HEALTH position. Ethylene Glycol An equal amount is payable by both employer and employee. 384. Mr.TONKIN, to the Minister for Labour and Industry: (2) The 29th September, 1978. (1) In which occupations are employees in The 12th February, 1979. Western Australia exposed to The 19th March. 1979. ethylene glycol? (3) Yes, a complaint baa been received (2) Is there regarding the fee charging activities of concern at the effects of acute Busy Bee Personnel Employment or chronic exposure to this substance? Agency. Tnvestigation has shown that the activi- Mr O'CONNOR replied: ties did not couitravene the Employment (1) Employees is the automotive'and paint- Agents Act. inn industries may be exposed to ethylene glycol. (2) The substance has low toxicity and may have some effects if swallowed which may EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL happen if it is badly or incorrectly- labelled or if it is misused. RELATIONS There have been no reported instances Federal Document: Government Policy to give cause for concern at the effects of exposure. 383. Mr TONKIN, to the Premier: (1) What is his Government's policy with respect to the document issued by the Minister for Employment and Industrial Relations in the Australian Government and entitled Industrial Relations-A Pol- CONSUMER AFFAIRS icy Jor People? Clothing and Fabric "Seconds" (2) Is his bovemnment committed, as the document referred to above suggests the 385. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Con- Australian Government is, 1o the estab- sumer Affairs: lishment of democratic government in Has there been any development in the trade unions? appointment of inspectors so as to (3) If so, what is his Government's attitude classify "seconds" in clothing and fabrics to the life appointment of trade union along the lines of the employment of officials? such inspectors in the Eastern States? [Wednesday, 11th April, 1979]57 537

Mr O'CONNOR replied: TRADESMEN AND APPRENTICES No. I am not aware of the existence of V'ickers Hoskins any such inspectors. The Commissioner for Consumer Affairs checked with his 388. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Labour colleagues in New South Wales and Vic- and Industry: toria and neither is aware of such in- (1) How many tradesmen are employed by spectors. It is suggested that the Member Vickers Hoskins? may be confusing official inspectors with the internal inspectors employed by the (2) How many apprentices are employed by industry to carry out normal quality Vickers Hoskitns? control procedures. Mr O'CONNOR replied: (1) This information is not available to my EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT department. (2) 43. New Zealand Farm Workers 386. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Labour and Industry: (t) Has he received a letter dated th Dec- TRADESMEN AND APPRENTICES ember, 1978, from Mr Rt. Reid, assistant Transftield (WA) Pry. Ltd. ,secretary of the Trades and Labor Coun- cil, outlining problems associated with 389. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Labousr the employment of people from New and Industry: Zealand on farms? (1) How many tradesmen are employed by (2) what action is being taken with respect Transfield (W.A.) Pty. Ltd.? to this matter? (2) How many apprentices are employed by Mr O'CONNOR replied: that firm? (1) Yes, as the Member is well aware. Mr O'CONNOR replied: (2) As indicated in may reply to the Trades (1) This information is not available to my and Labor Council on 25th January, department. approaches had at that time been made (2) Eight. to the Commonwealth Government for funding under NEAT of additional train- ing schemes in the farming area. Unfortunately, the request in respect ABORIGINES of a further two year course has been rejected. Emiployment in Governmsent Departments and Instrumsentalities The request for funds to allow short term courses to proceed is still under 390. Mr TONKIN, to the Premier: consideration by the Commonwealth. (1) Does his Government support the policy adopted by the State Energy Comsmis- sion on 8th November, 1978, in which MEAT it was decided to encourage the entry of Aborigines into its work Force?., Marketing Referendumn (2) In what ways is the Government taking 387. Mr HI. D. EVANS, to the Minister for concrete steps to encourage the employ- Agriculture: ment of Aborigines: , What measures have been taken to (a) by State Government departments implement question 2 of the Livestock and instrumentalities; Marketing Referendum of 1977, which (b) by the private sector? the Government stated it intended to introduce by way of meat marketing re- Sir CHARLES COURT replied: form? (1) and (2) The State Government in co- Mr OLD replied: operation with the Commonwealth Gov- The general intent of question 2 will be ernment is actively engaged in a national implemented through the marketing strategy to provide employment and division of the Western Australian Meat training opportunities for Aborigines. Commission to which a marketing Departments and authorities have been manager was recently appointed. Also required to participate in the strategy the membership of the commission has by- been increased by an additional two (i) identifying positions where Abori- producer representatives to ensure that ginality could be a significant factor producers' views are fully reflected in in the performance of the dlutie& the commission's marketing activities. associated with the position; 538 538ASSEMBLY]

(ii) nominating areas within the organi- EDUCATION sation where Aboriginal trainees could be placed tinder the NEAT Schools: Freedom of Chokce for Parents Scheme; and 392. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Educa- (iii) generally providing employment op- tion: portunities for Aborigines. Has the Schools Commission established The policy adopted by the Stole Energy in Western Australia a pilot programme Commission is in conformity with this or programmes to determine the degree overall Government Strategy. of freedom of choice that may be possible The State is also represented on the for parents sending children to different National Aboriginal Employment Dev- Government schools? elopment Committee. The primary oh- jectivt of this committee is to stimulate Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: positive action by employers in employ- No. ment and training opportunities for Aboriginal people.

ENERGY: STATE ENERGY COMMISSION EDUCATION: TERTIARY Aborigines Tertiary Institutions: Academic Staff 391. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Fuel and Energy: 393. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Educa- Pursuant to the resolution passed by the tion: State Energy Commission on Sth Are there any arrangements whereby the November, 1978 what success has the academic staff of- commission so far had in encouraging (a) Murdoch University: the entry of Aborigines into its work (b) University of Western Australia; force? (c) any other tertiary institution, Mr MENSAROS replied: can work for the Commonwealth Seven Aboriginal apprentices have com- Scientific and Industrial Research Organi- menced in the engineering and building sation on secondment! trades at a number of the commission's depols. They are all progressing well. Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: Their probationary period has been Yes. served satisfactorily and they are now being indentured. Ten other young Aborigines ranging in age from 17 to 25 years have been en. gaged as junior clerical assistants, junior workers, linesman's assistants, trades- POLICE man's assistants, and labourers. They are Domestic Arguments being trained in electric and gas distri- butiosn methods, underground cables, 394. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Police vehicle maintenance workshops, power and Traffic: station operations, and office procedures. (1) Is it the policy of the Police Department The training is being carried out in the not to interfere in domestic arguments? metropolitan area and country districts. (2) Is it not a fact that the Criminal Code Indications are that alt the trainees are extends its protection to all citiaens progressing satisfactorily. whether or not they are being threatened The above information is in relation to or physically dealt with by a sporuse? the special Aboriginal training scheme (3) Was the report in Tite West Australian and does not include people of Aborig- of 9th March factual when it was stated inal descent employed prior to the reso- that the police would not interfere in a lution above coming into effect. domestic argument in which Paul Ray- The commission has always given Abor- mond Hipworlh was charged with igines the opportunity of permanent em- assaulting a woman? ploynment and at present, apart from those listed above, has approximately Mr O'NEIL replied: 34 in its workcforce. (1) Generally, yes. Arguments as such are These include: not offences. Tradesmen, 1; apprentices, 2; (2) Yes. skilled, If: (3) The Member has misquoted the report. semni-skilled. 2; The quote "did not usually interfere in unskilled. 16. domestic arguments" is correct. [Wednesday, I Ith April, 1979] 5393

HEALTH Mr O'CONNOR replied: Radioactivity Leiels: Rainwater mid Air Question 226 was asked on 22nd March, 1978 by the Member for Rockingham 395. Mr TONKCIN, to the Minister for Con- to the Minister representing the Minister servation and the Environment: for Conservation and the Environment Advertisg to question 35 of 1979: and referred to fish dleaths. (1) When was rainwater last measured (1) The number of inspectors employed tot radioactivity levels? pursuant to the Factories and Shops (2) What were the results? Act engaged in inispetios of pee- trdses where asbestos is used is 14. (2) The premises are norrtially inspected Mr O'CONNOR replied: twice a year except when it is neces- (1) A sample for the week ending 26th sary to remedy a problem, in which March, 1979, has now been analysed. case the frequency of inspections (2) 8263 Picocuries per kilogram. depends on the nature of the problem.

EDUCATION Mfigration Education Service LAND 398. Mr TONKIIN, to the Minister for Educa- Morley tion: 396. Mr TONKCIN, to the Minister representing (1) How many students in the various crate- the Minister for Lands: gories are attending coursct provided by (1) Does the block of land between house the migration education service at numbers 21 and 25 Napier Road, Motley, presenit? belong to the Crown? (2) What were the comparable figures for (2) If so, what is its vesting and purpose? 1977 and 1978? (3) Has a survey of nearby residents indi- (3) Does any mining company provide ac- cated that they are in favour of it being commodation for families from the used for residential purposes? north-west who are attending such educa- tion in Perth? (4) If not, what are the details? (4) What are the details of such sccom- (5) When can action on this matter be mnodation? expected? (5) What special arrangements are made for adult migrants from the Pilbar. to Mrs CRAIG replied: receive courses conducted by the adult (1) Yes. migrant education service? (2) It is vacant Crown land. (6) For which courses is there a waiting list and of what order is such a waiting (3) No survey of residents is known to Lands list? Department. (7) What is the percentage of women en- (4) and (5) Not applicable. rolled in these courses? Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: (1) 67 fult-time. 1 105 part-time. HEALTH (2) 1977- 45 full-time. Asbestos Product, 1 321 part-time. 397. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Labour 1978- and Industry: 43 full-time. I1542 part-time. Adverting to the answer to question 226 of 5th April, 1978 in which the Minister (3) No, but assistance has been given to for Health slated that "all premises individuals coming down from the Pit- where asbestos is used are supervised' bara by the continuation of salary while by the inspectors employed pursuant to on the cours and jobs being held open. the Factories and Shops Act, (4) The Immigration Department has (1) HOW Many inspectors are employed assisted in sime cases by accommodating on that work? people in Graylands Hostel. (2) How often per year wilt any pre- (5) Where numbers are sufficiet classs are mists be inspected by said inspec- arranged in the Pilbara through local tors? school principals. 540 540[ASSEMBLY]

(6) There is a waiting list of 263 people Sir CHARLES COURT replied: for full-time courses. Yes and we will continue to co-operate (7) Only a small percentage of women arc in the search for additional ways of enrolled owing to the courses being dealing with the problem. restricted to breadwinners.

EDUCATION HEALTH Tertiary Admittance Examination Notional Model Food Act 399. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for Educa- tion: 402. Mr TONKtN, to the Minister for Health: How many students were enrolled for the (1) Has a national Model Food Act been leaving certificate examinations in each drafted? subject for the years- (2) Is it expected that uniform food regula- (a) 1971; tions will be developed pursuant to such (b) 1972; an Act? Wc 2973: (3) Does the Government intend to redraft (d) 1974: the Health Act, using the Model Food Act as a basis? We 1975: Cf) 1976: Mr YOUNG replied: (g) 1977; (1) and (2) Yes. (bi) 2978? (3) The Government has a commitment, in Mr Old (for Mr P'. V. JONES) replied: principle, to adopt the draft Model Food Act by an amendment to the Health These statistics are being compiled and Act. the Member will be advised isnwriting shortly.

ORGANISATION FOR ECONOMIC LAND CO-OPERATION AND DEVELOPMENT North-west Tow Quality of Lift Index 403. Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister repre- 400. Mr TONKIN, to the Premier: snoting the Minister for Lands: (1) It he aware that the development assist- (1) How many blocks of land for- ance committee of the Organisation for Ca) housing purposes other than Slate Economic Co-operation and Develop- housing; mein has accepted the concept of a physical quality of life index and that (b) light industrial purposes, Australia is very poorly placed on the were made available during the Year 1978 list, indicating the order of quality? in each of the following towns: (a) Kununurra; (2) If so, to what factors does he ascribe (b,)Broome; this list Position? (c) Derby; Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (d) Hedland; (1) and (2) There are numerous OECD (e) Karratha? p~,blications relating to the various con- (2) (a)Is the Minister's department pro- cepts of the physical quality of life. posing to release blocks during 1979; If the Member would provide additional and details as to the specific document to (b)if so, in respect of each purpose in which he is referring, I &hall endeavou each town, bow many? to obtain a reply. (3) (a) Is the Minister's department aware of outstanding, applications for HEALTH such land; and (b) if so, how many outstanding appli- Dt-nj:: Smruggling cations are there for each purpse 401. Mr TONKIN, to the Premier: by each town? Is his Government satisfied with the (4) Does the Government regard the level of efforts being miade by the Australian land release in each town for each pur- Government in the detection and appre- pose as adequate? hension of those who are engaged in die (5) What is the proposed cost of land for smpigling of drugs? each purpose by each town? [Wednesday, 11th April, 19791

Mrs CRAIG replied: (2) (a) Yes. (1) (a) Residential (b) The Queensland infections were de- (i) Kununurra-46. tected between November 1977 and (ii) Broome-Nil. March 1978. The dates of earlier (iii) Derby-Nil. outbreaks in NSW and SA are not 0iv) Hedland-Nil. known. (v) lKarratha-73. to) The method of natural spread is not has been transmitted arti- (b) Light Industrial known. It ficially using infected larvae. Li) lKununurra-3. (ii) Broonse--4. (d) Voluntary apiary hygienic neasuces (iii) Derby-Nl are advocated within infected (iv) Hedlasid-74. - apiaries. (v) Karratha-40. (2) (a) Yes. BEEKEEPING (h) Number of lots to be released will depend upon availability of funds Bees and Honey; Imports from Queensland for servicing. 405. Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister for (3) (a) Yes--all inquiries registered. Agriculture: (b) Experience has shown that a firm (a) Can queen bees or honey be imported application frequently does not fol- into Western Australia from Queensland low an inquiry. at the present time; and (4) Yes. High servicing costs are exercising (b) if so, uinder what conditions? a restraint on land release but most genuine applicants have been satisfied. Mr OLD replied: (5) Broome upset price for single residential (a) and (b) Queen bees cannot be imported. lot $6 800, Duplex $10 500. Although honey may be imported sub- Currently available for over the counter ject to certification of freedom from application: disease, Ihe matter is currently beaing Karratha- reviewed. Single residential $10300, Large residential $13 2404$13 840. HEALTH: CHIROPRAaTORS Duplex $15 270415 950. I Patio sites $17 430-440 670. Registration Board; Prosecution and United Kunsnurra- Chiropractors Association Single residential $6350. 406. Mr HODGE, to the Minister for Health: Large residential $7 950, Further to question 48 of 1979; in view Medium density $18 100.$32 950. of his admission that it was the W.A. Cost of future releases cannot be esti- Chiropractors Registration Board that was responsible for the unsuccessful mated with reliable accuracy. prosecution against Mr H. Van Der Veldon, will he explain why the amount of legal costs incurred by the board is unknown and how the matter is in any way the business of the Australian KASHIMIR VIRUS Chiropractors Association? Oulbreaks Mr YOUNG replied: 404. Mr H. D. EVANS, to the Minister for It was advised that, the Australian Agriculture: Chiropractors Association initiated the (1) Is the disease kashlmir virus established action of investigation and reported the inaypat *Australia as the present results to the board and agreed to pay time, and if so, where? the account for legal costs which, at the time of the last question, had not been (2) (a) Has the disease been recorded pre- rendered by the lawyer engaged for viously in Australia; the action. (b) if so, whens and where were out- breaks recorded; (c) how is the disease transmitted;- RAILWAYS: STATION (d) how is the disease controlled? Perth Mr OLD replied: 407. Mr HODGE, to the Minister for Transport: (1) Yes, in Queensland, New South Wales (1) What are the Government's plans for and South Australia. the future of she Perth railway station? 542 542[ASSEMBLY]

(2) If the Perth railway station remains on The international commission does not its present site will it disrupt plans to recommend individual monitoring in open up the approach from Forrest Place circutmstantces where it is likely that to the new art gallery and cultural doses exceeding 3/10th of the annual centre? maximum permissible dose will be (3) Does the Government have any intention received. However, the Radiological of relocating *the Perth-Armadale rail Council considers it prudent to continue terminal to East Perth or any other lo- monitoring and to maintain records of tion? doses received, even where these are much less than the 3/10ths level. (4) If the Government decided to retain the Perth-Fresnantle rail service would it be possible to have the line terminate at a site near the presenit bus station? HEALTH: NORTH-WESr7 RESIDENTS Mr RUSHTON replied: Dental and Specialist Treatment: Air Fates (1) There are no plans for the removal of the Perth Railway Station at the present 409. Mr HARMAN. to the Minister for Health: time and intention for its use will be (1) (a) Is there any means test applied to released shortly. north and north-west residents who (2) Not necessarily. need to come to Perth by air for specialist treatment; and (3) No. (b) if not, what are the general criteria (4) Yes, it would be possible but the Gov- for their eligibility? ernment intends to close the passenger service on 1st September, 1979 and (2) Is orthodontal and other dental work remove freight services by about 1982. sufficient reason for obtaining a fare to Perth?

Mr YOUNG replied: ()(a) No. (b) (1) Referral must be initiated by HEALTH: RADIOACTIVITY local practitioner. Radiation Workers (2) Prior consent of the Director General of Medical Services is 408. Mr HARMAN, to the Minister for Health: required. (1) By what means or criteria is a (3) Medical treapment sought is "radiation worker" sosclassified by the required urgently. Government? (4) Medical treatment sought is not (2) Are "radiation workers" monitored for available locally or at the radiation dosages in Western Australia? closest regional centre. (3) If so, what standards and actual measu- (2) No, except where the orthodontic treat- rements are utsed to determine average ment is a part of a multi-disciplinary dose and upper dose limits of such treatment regime, for example, cleft- workers? palate.

Mr YOUNG replied: (1) The Radiological Council regards as "radiation workers' those persons for whom there is a potential of significant EDUCATION exposure to radiation arising out of their School Chzildren: Traffic Problems employment or occupation. (2) Yes. 410. Mr WILSON. to the Minister for Educa- tion: (3) The Radioactive Substances Act Regula- (1) Has he raised the W.A. Council of State tions provide for a maximum permissible School Organisations' request for an weekly dose of ionising radiation of 100 inquiry into the problem of fraffic/ millirem. This is essentially the same children conflict in the vicinity of schools, as the annual maximum of 5 000 with other Ministers, as he undertook ,nillirem recommended by the interna- to do in his letter of 23/8/78 to the tional commission on radiological pro- organisation? tection. Film badge monitoring service, records show that the average dose (2) If "Yes" to (1), can he say what develop- tevels do not exceed 1/101h of the ments have since taken place? permitted maximum dose levels and that (3) What other action, if any, has he taken individual doses exceeding the weekly to further the establishment of a eoarn- maximum of 100 mitlirem are rare. miie of inquiry into this problem? [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979154 543

Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: (2) Does his Government's policy take (I) Yes. account of the need to adopt a pro- gramme to make physical education a (2) A group representing the interested daily requirement aitall levels in Govern- parties meets irregularly to discuss the ment schools and to provide gymnasia matters referred to in the Member's so all schools and a physical education question.- specialist teacher on the basis of one (3) No permanent committee of inquiry is physical education teacher to every 200 envisaged as these mailers. are on-going. children? (3) How many Senior Nigh Schools are still without gymnasia in W.A.? (4) H-ow many gymnasia are to be built in- EDUCATION (a) new schools, School Children: Traffic Problems (b established schools, 411. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Police in 1979-80? and Traffic:. (5) How many full-time specialist physical When can the W.A. Council of State education teachers are currently em- School Organisationa expect a reply to ployed in Government schools? their request for a discussion with him (6) What is the teacher regarding the need for the establishment student ratio of full- of a committee of inquiry into the prob- time specialist physical education teacn- er5 in- lem of traffic/children conflict in the vicinity of schools? (a) primary schools; (b) High Schools? Mr O'NETL replitd:. (7) How many graduates from 1977 and On 14th February 1 received a letter 1978 who specialised in physical edluca- front the Western Australian Council tion are still without appointments, as of State School Organisations Inc. re- specialist physical education teachers, Or ferring to motions passed at a 1978 con- are unemployed? ference relating to problems of traffic/ children conflict in the vicinity of Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: schools, This answer is being compiled and the The letter sought my co-operation in Member will he advised by letter. havingi a committee of inquiry estab- lished into the matter and indicated that the members of the executive would wel- come the opportunity of discussion with EDUCAT7ION: SCHOOLS me should this be desired. The letter Waddington and Koondoola Special alto indicated that both the Minister for Transport and the Minitter for Educa- 413. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Education: tion had been approached and it implied Can he say when work on the reticulation that the initiative for such an inquiry and landscaping of Waddington primary would rest with the Minister for Educa- school and the Koondoola special school tion. is due to begin? This cannot be regarded at a request for discussion. Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: The submissions in this letter are cur- Waddington primary school-Reicula- rently being examined by departmental tion work is scheduled to commence officers and a reply can he expected soon. The landscape work is expected within the next few days. to be underiaken in mid-June. Koondoola special school-Reticula-. tion has been completed. Landscape work is expected to be undertaken to- wards the end of next month. EDUCATION: SCHO0OLS AND HIGH SCHOOLS

Physical Education EDUCATION 412. Mr WILSON. to the Minister for Educa- School: Hainswonsh tion: (1) Is be aware of a 1970 survey which 414. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Educa- revealed that 75% of post primary tion: children in Government schools were (1) Can he say whether consideratinn is being denied a planned continuous programme given to extending the grassed playing of physical education, 'because their area or school oval at' the Hainsworth schools were without a gymnasium? primary school? 544 544[ASSEMBLY]

(2) If "Ye', what form is any suich exten- EDUCATION sion to take and whetn is the work likely to be carried out? High School: Mifrabooko (3) Has consideration been given to provid- 417. Mr WILSON. to the Minister for Education: ing an additional cluster at the samne (1) Further to his answer to question 1077 school? of 1978, can he smy if the Mirrabooka (4) If "Yes", when is work to begin on the Senior High School is to be included in the 1979-90 repairs and maintenance new classrooms? programmea? Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: (2) If "Yes" what form will the repairs and maintenance take? (1)and (3) No. (2) and (4) Not applicable. Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: (D) The Mirrabooka Senior High School was given an external and internal repairs and rdnovation programme in 1974/75 and is not due- for further work at present. (2) Not applicable. EDUCATION School: flionello Heights 415. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Education: (1) Can he smywhether consideration has EDUCATION been given to tinting windows in class- High School: Sal go rooms at the flianella Heights primary school, to protect children from the 418. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Education: intense heat of direct afternoon sunlight? (1) Further to his answer to question 1409 (2) If "Yee", when is the necessary work to of 1978, can he say whether considera- be carried out? tion has been given to a major upgrading of existing facilities at the E.18. Senior High School in 1979-80. and if so. what Mr P. V. JONES) replied: Mr Old (for form will this take? (2) Prevention of sun penetration (I) and (2) Will the provision of a hall-gymnasium classrooms is being investi- into some be included in the upgrading pro- gated. Action will be taken when funds gram me?7 are available. Mr Old 4for Mr P. V. JONESO replied: 4t, Yes. The detail. are still under con- siderat ion. (2) No.

EDUCATION High School: Mofley 416. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Education: SMITH, R. E. (1) Can he say what attention is being given Comnpensation jor Assault to the acoustics problem being experi- etnced in the manual arts workshop at 419. Mr WILSON, to the Treasurer: the Morley Senior High School? (1) Can he say why he exercised his discre. (2) What action is proposed to alleviate the tion under the Criminal Injuries (Com- problem and when will the necessary pensation) Act in January this year in work be carried out? relation to a claim by Raymond Edward Smith, to authorise a payment for com- (3) What, if atiy. action is proposed to.- pensation and loss of wages, which was provide sonme means~ of dust extraction $2 300 lesa than the amount of the in the same workshop and when can any award made by the magistrate? such action be expected to be imple- mented? (2) Is he aware that out of the SI 951.6 granted for compensation and loss o( wages, Mr Smith had to pay over $500 Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: in legal fees and that action to mover I1) to (3) An investigation of the problem the outstanding damages would entail has been made and action to be taken further heavy legal fees, thus possibly (within finances which may be available) leaving Mr Smith well short of being is under considertion. properly compensated? [Wednesday, 11th April, 19791 5454

(3) Is he further aware that as a result of 06) Mr Smith has been paid full and proper the assault and the subsequent repcr- compensation for his injuries and for cussiona on his health, Mr Smith was his Loss of earnings in accordance with unemployed for six weeks in 1978 and the Act and there is no basis for review. has not worked this year because he has had to undergo an operation which his doctor links with the injuries he received at the time of the assault? HEALTH (4) Is he also aware that the person responsible for the assault has since Medical Manpower Supply joined the army and that as it is possible he entisted without having admitted to 420. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Health: any criminal record, further legat action (1) Has he had an approach from his Fede- would only lead to his discharge from ral counterpart seeking his views on she the army and again being placed in a report of the committee of officials on position in which he could claim inability medical manpower supply? to pay the outstanding damage? (2) Can he say whether he will be making (5) Dons the burden of costs on the victim a formal submission to the Federal Min- of the assault and the nature of any ister on this matter? course available to Mr Smith for the (3) Has the Western Australian Govern- recovery of substantial outstanding dam- ment established a policy on medical ages, place him virtually beyond any manpower supply in this State? hope of full and proper compensation? (4) If "Yea" to (3), can he outline the (6) Will lhe review the compensation pay- Government's policy? ment in view of Mr Smith's present (5) What is the number of medical students predicament? presently enrolled for courses in West- ern Australia. and what are the job prospectis for new graduates in the next Sir CHARLES COURT replied: five years? (1) Taking into account the cir'cumstances (6) How does the ratio of doctors per head surrounding the assault, the medical re- of population in Western Australia com- ports, the evidence given at the applica- pare with the situation in other States tion, the opinion of Counsel and pre- and Australia as a whole? vious comparable assessments. (2) The Member has informed the Under Mr YOUNG replied: Secretary for Law that Mr. Smith has Iti There have been aL number of reporl~s legad costs of $502.10. I am not aware on medical manpower. I am nut able of ainy estimtes'. of legal costs of further to identify the report from the proceedings. Member's question. (3) This is according to the information (2) Not applicable. supplied by the Member to the Under Secretary for Law. (3) Yes. (4) 1 am informed that the assailant has (4) For the present, it is considered joined the Armed Forces but am not sufficient to monitor the availability of aware of the circumstances of his en- medical manpower, the numbers of listment. doctors in practice, including differenti- ation into general practice and the (3) The Criminal Injuries (Compensation) various specialities, and to study the Act makes no provision for costs and trends in any changes which occur. there is no authority for the Treasurer to pay an applicant's Costs out of public (Si 698. Newly qualified doctors graduating moneys. The Act allows and contem- from the University of Western plates that a victim may make his appli- Austratia are guaranteed hospital cation for compensation at the comple- employment in the first year after tion of the proceedings at which his qualifying. Job prospects for new assailant is convicted. Not only may he graduates in the next live years must bring his application immediately after he considered so be reasonably gooid. conviction but be may also do it in but this to some extent depends Upon person without the need for legal repre- appropriate action being taken by the sentation. Nevertheless, courts have de- Commonwealth to limit the numbers cided that they have a discretion to of immigrant doctors. Representations award costs to a victim and in the have also been made to the University present case of Mr Smith was awarded of Western Australia to ensure that costs of $166.00 which he may recover the number of doctors graduating each from his assailant. year is maintained at a consient level. 546 546[ASSEMBLY]

(6) Uniform statistics have not been collected 42) (a) Of these applications, how many in all States so direct comparisons are Were pranted; and not possible. The overall doctor to (b) what area of land dlid these population ratio in Western Australia licences involve? appears to compare favourably with pub- lished information from other Stales. (3) (a) How many applications for com- pensation by land holders who have had applications to cleat land in the Wellington calchment area have WATER SUPPLIES been received; has been paid to tand- Dlronnention of Sertice (b) how much holders by way of compensation? 421. Mi SKIDMORE, to the Minister represent- ing the Minister for Works and Waler Sup- Mr O'CONNOR replied: plies:, (1) 238 applications. (1) Is the Water Board empowered to dis- (2) (a) 209. connect a water service where the omut- (b) 4 759 hectares. pant of the residence concerned refuses to pay drainage rates? (3) (a) 15. (2) Would the Minister advise the cost of (b) $60000 has been paid in com- the storm waler drain installed between pensation. In addition, $451 300 Myles Road and the broad gauge rail- has been paid to purchase land way line in Morrison Road, Swan View, from landholders whose applica- and the individual amounts paid by all tions for licences to clear were authorities participating in the installa- refused, tion of the drain?

Mr O'CONNOR replied: LAND (1) Yes. Kaibarfl (2) $180 000. The Metropolitan Water Board proportion of this was $90000D, 424. Mr CARR, to the Minister representing with the balance being met by the Shine the Minister for Lands:- of Swan town planning scheme No. 6. (1) Has the Government received an ap- proach from a development company wishing to build a $1.5 million tourist complex on a class A reserve at Kal- RAILWAYS hardi? U~niforms and/or Clothsing (2) If "Yes" what is the attitude of the 422. Mr SKIDMORE, to the Minister for Trans- Government 10 releasing the class A port: reserve for this purpose? (1) Have tenders been called for the supply Mrs CRAIG replied: of uniforms and/or clothing for West- (1) Such an approach was received in res- rail? pect of vacant Crown land north of the (2) If "Yes" are tenders still open? Murchison River and the application was (3) Would the Government ensure that refused. A verbal inquiry was received Western Australian firms are given pre- concerning possible use of class "A" ference when tenders are determined? reserve between the town and Red Bluff. (2) No particulars of the proposed new site Mr RUSHTON replied: on the -A"-ctass reserve have been (I) Yes. received and the attitude of the Govern- ment has therefore not been determined. (2) No. (3) Yes. local companies till be given the usual preference of 10 per cent. EDUCATION: TECHNICAL Coftege: Gerafdron WATER SUPPLIES: CATCHMENT AREAS 425. Mi CARR. to the Minister for Education: Land Clearing: Ucenrcer and Compensation (1) Did the original proposals and plans for the Geraldton technical college include 423. Mr H. D. EVANS. to the Minister repre- provision for hostel accommodation to senting the Minister for Lands: be incorporated? (1) How many applications for licence to (2) Is consideration presently being given clear forested land in the Wellington by the Government to the provision of catchment area have been received? hostel accommodation in the college? [Wednesday, I1Ith April, 1979] 5474

(3) It "Yes" to (2). is consideration being Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) tepliect given to incorporating a course in cater- .Students Iag and hostel management with tbe tblse Prkmy secedety hostel? 17 (4) Uf "Yes" to (2) or (3), will be advise Nonhtgtad of the stage of the Government's cots- Resat...... 4+ (3 cawn.q 2 awna! stmd- aideratioa7 poufee) au of Caat4 Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: BigaPp10t Tots!...... 43 (1) Although an area has been reserved for a future hostel there have been no firm plans produced. (2) Yes. PORT (3) No. Gefaidton: Opening ol Berth (4) Consideration by the relevant Govern- ment Departments is -at a very early 428. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Police and Traffic: (1) At the opening of the fifth berth at the Geraldton Wharf by the Premier last Friday- (a) were signs critical of the Govern- ment held up by about seven CULTURAL AFFAIRS people: Western Australian Museum: (b) did a machl take place: Gereldion Branch (c) did blocking of access lake 'place. 426. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Cultural (d) did shouting take place: Affairs: (e) did protesters remain stationary at the rear of the gathering throughs- (1) What stage has been reached in pre- Out the opening ceremony? paration for the establishment of a branch of the W.A. Museum in (2) Prior to the day of the opening, did the Oeraldton? local press carry an advertisement from the Geraldton Port Authority inviting ()Specifically, is it his intention that a citizens onto the wharf to attend the branch be established during this year? opening? Mr Old (for Mr P. V. JONES) replied: (3) Why did the police take the names of these people? (1) Renovation of the old railway station building, Marine Tce., adjacent to the (4) Who ordered the names to be taken? present Cieraldton Maritime Municipal (5) What action is intended arising from Museum, has been completed. The the taking of names? Trustees of the W.A. Museum plan to ase the two buildings together to provide Mr OINEIL replied: branch Museum facilities in that area. (I) (a)and (e)Yes. (2) The branch cannot be fully established until suffcient funding is provided to (b) to (d) No. allow for professional and gallery aten- (2) Yes, dant staffing, provision of displays and (3) Police were apprehensive that a breach other services, and on-going mnaintens- of the peace may occur. ance. (4) Senior Inspector Jones. (5) Nil.

EDUCATION4 JUSTICES OF THE PEACE AND MEMBERS School: A4brolhos Islands OF PARLIAMENT 427. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Educaton: Witnessing of Document Further to his answer to question 148 of 1979 advising that 45 primary sin. 429. Mr CARR, to the Minister representing dents and three secondary students the Attorney General: attend "schools" at the Abrolhos Will the Minister please advise of any Islands, will he indicate how many of documents which can be witnessed by a these students are located at each of Jusltc Of the Peace which cannot be the relevant islands? witnessed by a Memtber of this House? 548 548[ASSEMBLY]

Mr O'NEIL replied: t2) There are several technologically safe Any instrument that may be signed or methods of disposing of nuclear waste, executed in the presence of a Justice of including storage in igneous rock for- ihe Peace may be signed or executed in mations and underground salt beds. the presence of a Member of this Parlia- Other overseas governments are about ment, unless statutorily excluded. Mem- to adopt methods for permanent nuclear hers of Parliament have no power to waste disposal including Sweden, West administer oaths or take affidavits. Germany, France, UK, USA and Japan. When Western Australia adopts nuclear power we will have the advantage of many years' combined experience from these countries which should satisfy even the most sceptical opponents of nuclear PUBLIC SERVANIS AND MEMBERS OF power. PARLIAMENT Standard 01 Dress 430. Mr CARR, to the Speaker: (1) Is he aware of a memo from the Chair- man of the Public Service Board to all permanent heads dated 24th January, SESQUICENTENNIAL CELEBRATIONS 1978 dealing with the dress of public servants? Cost and Tourism 12) In particular, is het 2aar that Para- 432. M~r BRYCE, to the Premier: graph 12) reads as follows: "Following a recent approach by the Further to question 321 of 10th April, Civil Service Association for the 1979: wearing of ties by male officers to be (1) Will hie provide the Parliament optional, the Board has decided to with a breakdown of the expend i- agree to this request and also to ture on WAY 179celebrations? approve of good quality safari suits being worn, either with or without a 42) What proportion of the WAY '79 shirt, but specifically in the latter budget Was spent Within Western ease on the strict condition that the Australia and what proportion was jacket not be removed."? spent outside the State? (3) Will he reconsider hsis previous rulings (3) Which orgaisat ions .received declaring ties to be compuilsory? grants from the State Government for she purpose of celebrating WAY The SPEAKER replied: '79? (1) and (2) Yes. t3)1I have nothing to add to remarks I made Sir CHARLES COURT replied: on 21st March, 1978. (See Hansard (1) Expenditure to 31st January, 1979- page 274.) Publicity and promotion 321 760 Salaries .. .. . 187 860 Office adminigtration .. 17420 International Conference HEALTH: RADIOACTIVITY on Indian Ocean Waste Material Premier's Statemnent studies ...... 15 000 and Disposal Arts and entertainment 91 081 431, Mr BRYCE. to the Premier: Ceremonies committee 47 173 (1) Was he factually reported in the 1978 Education committee 272 436 30th July edition of the Canberra Times, Industry committee .. 25000 page 3, in which he is alleged to have Commerce committee .. 10000 stated: Media promot ion and .. that. technology for safe disposal travel committee 52202 already exists."? Primary industry com- (2) If so, what is the technologically safe mittee...... 107 909 method of disposing of nuclear waste? Women's committee .. 37 456 Youth, spot and recrea- Sir CHARLES COURT replied: tion committee 145397 1) Yes. In the sense that the word "Safe" means within safety standards acceptable Total: 51 199894 to regulatory authorities. [Wednesday, 1 Ith April, 19791 549

(2) A very small amount of morley has entertainment, Ceremonies, commerce, been spent outside of Western Aust- education, industry, media promotion ralia. and travel, primary industry, women's, Meat of the publicity has been from youth, spot an recreation, Parnielia pamphlets, posters, etc., used in travel yacht race management committee. centres, airline offices, airports and the Where grants have been made direct like. from the board to sporting and other Money spent in England on the organisations, it has been on die Parmelia yacht race has come from condition that the organisation first sponsorship. obtained a large percentage of the the board made (3) Grants in all cases have been money required before by the any contribution. 150th Anniversary Board through the various committees of Arts and