B ill Lloyd 05188-1 Page 1

L: . . .was a city clerk. 00:01 I: Yeah. That's right, he was a city clerk for a long time. He

talked to us, we talked to him for, oh, hours and hours. He

took us out around the old mines and introduced us around and.

L: Henry?

I: Yeah. He's a great old guy.

L: He just died, huh?

I: He did. We were very sad to heer it . He had some blood

disease or something.

L: Did his wife die too?

I: I don't think so. His wife is in a home.

L:_ She was in a home when I was up there.

I: Yeah. She's s t ill in a home. She'll probably go on forever.

Ok, well, le t's . . .Could you start out by x telling us what

your name is and how old you are?

L: My name is William Henry Lloyd. And I'm 84 years old, going to

85. I was born in 1893 in England.

I: Oh xxxxxx really?

L: Yeah. In Monmashire County England in Wales.

I: In Wales?

L: Yeah.

I: Oh, were your parents coal miners?

L: My dad was one of the best coal miners in Colorado, good coal

miner, pick miner.

I: Did he start mining in Wales?

L: Oh yeah. And in Pennsylvania. He dug coal in Pennsylvania too Bill Lloyd 05188-1 Page 2

in the pitching veins. And then went back, . . .he was here 1:13 out in this country here and then my oldest sister was xxxxx born

in Pennsylvania. And then he went back to England. And me and

my sister was born in England, younger sister. My oldest sister

was born in Pennsylvania. Then he came back to Lafayette,

Colorado.

I: How did he know to go there? How did he wind up in Lafayette?

L: Well, I got a. . .1 had an uncle that owned all them coal mines

up there in northern Colorado like I told you. See, he owned the

Blue Ribbon and the Patfield mine and the. . .can't think of the

mine. The Blue Ribbon and the Patfield and then my dad come out

and started working for him in Lafayette.

I: What was your uncle's name?

L: William Patfield. Patfield. And he wowned the Patfield mine too,

up there too. And then when the work slacked off up there and then

we came to southern Colorado. We come to Raus, see. And my dad

dug coal in Raus, over entry in Raus with my uncle Solomon Jones.

And then dad left there and we went over to Rugby. My mother run

the boarding house in Rugby, Colorado. And then from Rubgy, after

that she sold the boarding house and we came back to Raus. And

she run a boarding house in Lester. My dad was digging coal in

xxx Lester, see. And then from Lester, then after the big strike,

13-14 x strike, my dad sold the boarding house out and moved to

Trinidad. He owned his own home in Trinidad, see.

I: Well, when did you start to work?

L: 1903, when my dad went from Hastings, from Hastings we went up to

Delawa in 1903 and my dad opened up the Delawa mines. He was Lloyd 05188-1 Page 3

digging coal in Hastings and the transferred up there. The 3:38 Victor American Fuel Company transferred x him from Hastings

up to Delawa to open up them mines and he opened up Number 4, 5, 6

and 7, see. And then they wanted him to take general manager and

he wouldn't do it because he couldn't see very good, see. My

dad couldn't see very good. So he wouldn't take it so he went

then over. . .he quit and went over to Piedmont. 1903 when he

went to Piedmont. And he started bossing in Piedmont for a man

by the name of Hutchison. Hutchison was the superintendent and

my dad and Mr. Hutchison come from the same place in England, see.

And I went to working and trapping in the coal mines over in a

little mine they called Frisco.

I: What do you mean trapping?

L: Trapping, taking care of a trap door to direct the air going

from one place to another yoi*6ee, then the trap door is put on

to block the air to xxxxxxx transfer it around to another way,

see.

I: Was that a job children did all the time?

L: It's a job that kids always done. That was where they started

in the mines, when their dinner bucket x drug the xxxx ground, see

and that's the way mine done, see. And I was working over there

and I was trapping and we used to pick up two mules for the

drivers. They was coming over from Starkville to drive in the

mine there, see, and me and another driver used to ride the xx

mules from Piedmont, 3 miles over, about a mile and a half or

something like that over, from Piedmont over xxto Fresco, see.

And this old mule I was on, Old Beck they called her, an old Lloyd 5 : 3 0 05188-1 Page 4

red mule, she was old as Columbus. I was leading a bronco one

night going home and bronco got away from me and I . . next

morning we was going over and I had my dinner bucket in my hand

and had the rope in my hand and leading this bronco again. And

I pointed my hand to show this other driver where this mule got

away from me that night. And this old mule I was on, not

expecting it, raised up on her two hind legs up in the air and

come right down and missed my head and had my hands on the

ground and she hit my hand there. Right there's a mark yet,

broke that hand and see that mark there? Broke that thumb. She

was both feet like that. She just missed xx my head and come

down and, see. And I never lost a days trapping. I had my

6:25 hand like that and I stilled trapped. [Train passing through}

I : You get a lot of trains through here?

L: Oh, god, yes.

I: Coal trains?

L: Huh?

I: Do you ever get any coal trains?

L: Yeah. Pretty soon you'll see one coming down, 50 cars. 250

cars of coal went down through here one day, coming from thex

western slope somewhere over here by Gunnison I guess.

I: Where is it going?

L: Huh?

I: Wheredoes it go?

L: Going east I guess, down there. There'a a lot of coal goes down

through here. They got all the same kind of car. They got a big

black car with a xxxxx yellow mark on the front end of them.

xx Lloyd 05188-1 Page 5

I: I've seen those cars.

7:12 L: Did you?

I: Yeah.

L: Well we got the railroad train too. Heh, heh, heh.

I: Yeah, we got everything. We even get silver in the act there for

a minute here. Oh, let's see where we were. . .Oh, trapping in.. .

L: Piedmont. Yeah, then, yeah my dad . . .When my dad went to

England on a trip, him and Mr. Hutchison, I was paying the rent

on the house, my mother was running the boarding house there at

that time, see and I paid the rent and it tickled me to death.

And all I got for trapping in that mine, see, 10 hours a day.

Now look what they're getting today, see. I was getting 10 hours

a, day, getting 9¢ an hour, see. 90¢ a day and free oil, that's

what I got when I first started in the mine.

I: Free oil. You mean for your lamp?

L: Yeah, yeah, I had them. . .cotton in the lamp you know.

Ik: You wear the old soft hat and everything?

L: Yeah, yeah. The soft hat.

I: Well, how did you learn mining? Who taught you mining?

L: My dad. Yeah, my dad. I started when we left Piedmont. My

dad quit Piedmont and we went to digging coal at Cokedale and

I went with him to Cokedale. And I was loading the coal in

Cokedale and he was digging it and I was loading the car.

I: What do you remember about the town of Cokedale, what was it

like?

L: Cokedale? Cokedale was a pretty good-sized place. All cement they block houses and xx had a k clubhouse there. They had a great Lloyd 05188-2 1 Page 6

big hotel there and they had a big grocery store there and a

8:47 nice mine office, nice clubhouse and some nice houses there and

they had them in rows and up in one canyon they had a bunch of

baches, me and my dad was baching up there in that canyon.

I: What does that mean baching?

L: Well, just me and him. My mother was living in Trinidad, see.

And that's where I started in the coal mining digging coal with

my dad, see. And then we left there. We quit there and went

over to Bone. My mother got the job running the Bone boarding

house, so we left Cokedale and went over there and him and I

started digging coal in Bowen, see.

I: Where is that?

L: Bowen? That's 6 miles this side of Trinidad. You go right

up the hill, right up the side of the mountain, up above that

Trinidad sand rock. And we used to go up there in the morning

on a mantrip. They take 4 cars up of men. . .3 cars up of men and

4 carloads coming down that hauled the men up in the morning, see.

And that was a 66° pitch coming down, see, till it hit the change

of grade. Hit the change of grade then it was 24 percent pitch, see.

And then I dug coal with my dad there in Bowen for quite a while.

And then the boss wanted me to go out nipping on the motor. So

I nipped on the motor, oh, I guess 6 or 7 months, i guess after

that. And then the motorman quit and I got the job running the

motor, see. And I was only 16 years old then and I was running

the motor drawing man's pay at $3.25 a day. But when I was nipping

I was getting $2.05 a day.

I: What's nipping? Lloyd 05188-1 Page 7

L: That's helping the motorman and coupling cars and that for the

10:39 motor you know so. . .coupling the cars, see. And that's what

I was doing there and I got the job running motor. And I run

motor there , why, until the strike come on. No, I take it

xxxx back. It wasn't the strike come on. We moved from there

then. My dad. . .My mother quit the boarding house. And we

went in a private home. And if I can remember now, I'm not. . .

It's a long time back you know.

I: Sure.

L: It's hard to remember all this stuff. So we went from there

up to Lester. That's when we went up there with be CF&I. My

mother went to run the boarding house in Lester, see. And I

went up there then with them. And I went on and got a job on

then with a mechanic gang, moving pumps and everything under­

ground, moving pumps and xxxxxxxx stringing wires, electric

wires and everything like that, see. So I done that. There

was 6 of us on that gang for the CF&I there at that time. And

all the time mother was running the boarding house. Well, then

they took me out and put me xx in the power house. I was

running the power house then for a while. And firing boiler

night shift too, see.

I: What kind of company was CF&I to work for?

L: No damn good when I was there and that's plain English, see.

But after the xx big xxxx strike it was all right but before that,

no.

I: Why, what was. . .?

L: I don't xx know. They didn't care whether you made any money Lloyd 05188-1 Pagex 8

or not. And i f you didn't trade in the company store they kicked 12:15 you out.

I: Oh.

L: See. Andthey ___ that and they paid you in script.

I: Oh yeah.

L: Yeah. I ' l l te ll you in them days it was hard going, hard sledding,

in them days. But now it 's a lot different; it 's 100 percent

better now xxxx than i t was then. And you worked in water too

atx that time and they didn't care either. It was up to you.

And lots of these here guys, foreigners and that, used to pay the

boss for good places. They get good places you know at that time.

There's a lot of places was sold in these coal mines through the

bosses, you know, and superintendents.

I: You mean you paid off a lit t le bit. . .

L: That's right, on the xxx side, on the side. They can't tell me

that because I had both jobs but I never took a nickle off of

nobody. And they all had it offered to me, but I wouldn't take

it , see. So they got to go to canyon. You got to go to canyon,

they got to buy the lots on the property up there. That's what they

got to go, they got to be there at one thirty. No, and I le ft. . .

xxx le t's see, I le ft Lester then, xxxx after working there a

while. I le ft there and xx went back down to. . .1 went back

down to Bowen and I got a job down at Bowen driving, driving a

mule in xxx the mine. I worked there for a while. Then I le ft

there. I didn't work very long at Bowen. Then I went from there

over to Suffield, that's just about a mile over. I went over

there and I was working for a man by the name of Ef Wagstaff. Lloyd 05188-1 Page 9

He was superintendent over there and I got a job driving a mule

14:02 over there. And I drove mule over there then until the big 1913

strike. And then my mother and father they'd sold out everything

down there and they went to Denver and they had this xx big

Masonic conclave up there with the Knights Templars. And they

wanted me to come to Denver to see it . So I took out and went

to Denver. And while I was in Denver they didn't want me to

come back to the field at a ll. And I stayed in Denver there and

I went to. . .They got me a application to go into the YMCA

Automobile School in Denver. So I went there to the YMCA

Automobile S-chool in Denver and I graduated at x it . Then

after I graduated at the YMCA I went over to the Jackson

Automobile School there and completed over there for a few

months in Jackson, see. And I went to school there for a long

time. Now we come back from there. After that, at the time of

that great big snow in 1900, I think it was 1913-14 during the

big strike.

I: Yeah, i t was.

L: Big snow. I seen snow piled on civic center before civic center

was there, see. Well i t was there but there wasn't nothing

built on it . I seen snow piled 25 feet high on there and they

was hauling it up from downtown Denver up in these here dump wagons.

You see, up in Denver. And I even seen a 6-xxx horse team going

up one of those main streets in Denver plowing ice. The snow was

froze and was plowing ice up through there. And they was loading

it in railroad cars. Well, it was taken out with streetcars and

dumping down in the Platte River to get rid of it . See the Lloyd 05188-1 Page 10

trains was all stopped and everything coming into Denver, see. 16:35 I: What do you think it was like in those tent colonies down here

during that snow?

t: Oh, it was bad. It was awful bad. Well, I came back down after

that, I come down with my mother. She went to Walsenburg after

and she was running a hotel in Walsenburg, the Lloyd's Hotel

across the street from Cline's hotel, during the strike. And

all the organizers and that was eating at the house.

I : Did you get to know them?

L: Huh?

I: Did you get to know some of them?

L: Well, yes, I knew them all as far as that xxxxgoes. I knew Mike

Lovota, and I knew Doyle, Frank J. Hayes, Germer and his wife,

and I knew Mother Jones.

I: You did?

L: Oh yeah. I knew Mother JOnes. My mother used to cook for all

of them and Mother Jones was in jail in Walsenburg there and

my mother used to send her meals up in a bucket, up the jail for

her. And in these little lunch buckets, you know, while she was

in jail there. Yes, I knew Mother Jones. I knew all of them.

I: What do you remember about those times?

L: I still remember it.

I: Tell me. Tell me about what it was like. Must have been real

exciting in that boarding house.

L: Well, it was at that time with stuff like that. Course, it was

nothing to speak of. They'd come down there to eat and then

they'd leave you know. But they never roomed there. They just Lloyd 05188-1 Page 11

17:31 eat there, see, just was eating, was a ll, they never roomed there.

I: Did you hear a lot of talk about the strike and ____ what was

going on?

L: Oh God. I knew about i t a ll, but I was working for Conners and

Price. They had a taxicab service out of Walsenburg there, you

know, to the coal xxxx camps, see. And I was driving a taxicab

xx for Conners and Price. And I used to haul the organizers

from there to the tent colonies on paydays. See, the men, xxx

cuase the miners get their 3 dollars and the women get a dollar

and the kids get 50¢ apiece see. And I'd haul the coal

miners in the taxicab down to the main tent colony and then

over to Big 4 tent colony see when the time come. But as far

as telling the name to them organizers I couldn't te ll you who

they were. I can't remember their tames, see.

I: You remember some of them. We talked to Mike Lovota.

L: Well, I know Mike Lovota, yeah. But I don't know. . . I mean the

ones I used to haul. xxxx Mike Lovota was a big shot. He

wasn't one of the organizers in that d istrict, used to go down

to the tent colonies. I never hauled him around. But these

other ones would come in there you know from different places.

And I was with the firs t guy. I think it was the firs t guy, I

wouldn't say for sure. But me and a fellow by the name of, I

think it was George Harmon. He used to work in Bowen. Me and

George Harmon I think was with the firs t guy that was killed in

the southern Colorado coal strike.

I: where was that?

L: Lloyd 05188-1 Page 12

L: We were going up. . .We got off the train in Trinidad. We

talked up to Commercial Street. We started up Commercial Street 19:01 and we got going up through there and a fellow by the name of

Lepia who had come down xxxxx From Denver. He was an organizer.

And two fellows walked out with guns out from a pawn shop there,

stepped out with guns and stopped Lepia. But me and George

walked on up the street a lit t le . We hadn't walked x very far t i l l

they started shooting and they shot Lepia down in the middle of

the street and that was Belk and Belcher. Belk and Belcher. Well

Belcher, Belcher was killed across the streetx a little bit

across the street quite a few months after, coming out x of a

drugstore there when they had a big parade or something going

xx on in Trinidad. I wasn't there at the time but I heard it.

And he walked out of there and he had a cigar and somebody plugged

him in the head. They never did find out who it was, see.

I: I heard stories that he used to wear armor.

L: Yeah, they wore armor and when they'd go down the street they'd

walk, go down. . .when they come to the place, you know, they'd

turn and back in. They'd never walk in frontwards, they'd turn

around and back in, see. They was down there. I think they was

down there. . ;The CF&I had them down there as strikebreakers,

breaking up the strike, or trying to break the strike, see. Yeah.

I: Did you know Old Doc Beshoar down in Trinidad?

L: Yes, I knew of him. I didn't know him personally. But I knew

of him, see. I knew of him.

I: How about Jeff Barr, the Sheriff.

L: IN Walsenburg? I knew him personally. I Lloyd 05188-1 Page 13

21:00 I: You did?

L: Oh yes.

I: What kind of man was he?

L: Jeff was a pretty good egg. And I'll tell you. There was some

fellow by the name of Floyd, it wasn't Lloyd, it was Floyd, see.

And Jeff was pretty good friends of my family when they was

living there in Walsenburg running this hotel and that, see.

So it was old Jeff Barr. And this Floyd went over the humpback

when they had the. . .the miners was on the hogback rather. And

there was a lot of shooting going on between the state militia

and the hogback coal miners at that time. And this here guy

was going over the hogback on a motorcycle. And he went up there

a couple of times and they finally told him x up there not to

come back up there anymore. If he did, they'd kill him. But he

wouldn't listen to them. He's going up there you know getting

news and then carrying it x back, see. As far as I know, that's

just hearsay. And the last time he went up there they shot

xxxx and xxx killed him. Jess Barr thought it was me. And he

come down to the xxxxx house right away to see if it was me, see.

But it wasn't me. I wasn't even xxx around there, see.

I: You were lucky.

L: Yeah. So I got all that news and that was the time the battle

was going on on the hogback inWalsenburg when all them people

was killed there, see.

I: Was there a Major Lester?

L: Lester was killed down on 7th Street. Major Lester was killed

on 7th Street there that x same day. Lloyd 05188-1 Page 14

22:15 I: Do you know that story? L: Huh?

I: Do you know the story of how he was killed?

L: No, I don't know it at all. I just of his being killed. I don't

xx know the story at all about it. Someone told me. Of course,

it's just hearsay, that he was standing in xx the doorway down

there and somebody went up the xxx street and shot x him, that's

all I know. I don't know no more, about Lester. That's all that

I know of him. But I remember Charley Dick killed, the pay­

master from Oakly, was killed going up with the payroll. He

was killed. . .I was x in Walsenburg at that time when he left

that morning going up. But they never did find his x killers

either.

I: Was that during the strike?

L: Yeah, yeah, that was during the strike when he was going up to

pay the coal miners up at Oldfield. See Charley was xxx running

the bank, him and his brother run the bank in Walsenburg see.

And they killed Charley going up and I think the fellow that

was driving taxi or something went up behind him and seen him

in the ditch there and he was driving a coup, one of them you

know the x old time coups youk know that had these presto lights

and along side and his head was hanging out the window you xx

know. And it went over. . .Instead of going across the bridge,

it went over into the ditch there and that's where they found

him but they never did find the guy that xxxxx killed him,. . .

I: For the payroll I guess.

L: No, they never bothered the payroll. Payroll, they never. . .they Lloyd 05188-1 Page 15

23:30 didn't bother the payroll. The payroll was in the trunk of

the car. They never did find it. They never looked for it, as

far as that goes. I don't think they was after it. They were

stopping him from going to pay, see.

I: Did you ever know Shorty Martinez?

L: Oh the cop?

I: Yeah.

L: Oh God, yeah, old Shorty, big old tall piece of furniture.

Yes, I knew him. Yes, yes, I knew Shorty well.

I: Tell me about Shorty.

L: God I don't nothing about him, only he's a good cop, I could

tell you that. And Shorty, he was a good man, Shorty was. He

was everybody's man. He xxx wasn't a bit mean or anything that

I know of. And he was always friendly to everybody that I knew

of, was Shorty. He ate at my mother's house x lots of times too

in Walsenburg, see. Yeah, Shorty was a pretty good cop. Oh, I

know a lot of names there. And I know a fellow by the name

of Mora, was killed during the strike. He was a cop in Lester and Lester he quit xxxxxxxxxx when the strike was called and then I guess they

called him back at Raus. And when he was going back, his

furniture was in front, and I don't know, someway or another

his wife and his kids in the buggy and they shot and killed him

on the road back to Raus, when he was moving back in. That's a

fellow by the name of Mora, he was a cop in Raus, see. I remember

that during the strike, see. And then I was driving this here taxi

for Price and Conners and I went to Raus but they never bothered

me cause they knew who I was. And the tent colony was down over Lloyd 05188-1 Page 16

the h ill there at xx Main, xxx main tent colony. And I broke down 25:15 up on top of the h ill there and the back end of that there

Flander's car I was driving cuz them there every morning fixing

you know them cars at that time, Everett, Metsgear and Flanders.

And a fellow by the name of Houdini and Delphi and them, they come

from the tent colony up. They seen me up there. They had rifles.

And shit I was lucky that they didn't k ill me and I said why.

You're shooting at everybody going by. And I was under the car

fixing and trying to fix this gear and they come up there and I

was sitting there talking to them and they never bothered me.

They went on about their business after down over the h ill. x

And I went and got my car fixed and they went on about my

business. They never bothered me. That was southern Colorado

stuff. Then I was in Raus for quite a while in Lester when I

worked there on that pump gang and that.

I: Were you down in southern Colorado when the Federalies came in,

when they put the m ilitia in? The Federal m ilitia?

L: Yes. I was there when they put the xxxx troops in. Yeah, when

the troops came in there I was in there. They put them right

in .. .They put the xxxx troops in after that big battle, Ludlow

battle. They xx had to take and put the troops in there. The

m ilitia was getting killed off and they were killing everybody

there as far as I know.

I: What happened?

L: Well, they burned the tent colony down down there at Ludlow,

burned all the women and kids up and some women down in the

bottom went down in that basement and had kids down in there under Lloyd 05188-1 Page 17 26:48 where that monument sits now. And suffocated them all down in

there. See, and then they sent the troops in, see. The United

States army come in then and everything settled down then.

I: Well what did the miners do right after the tent colony was burned

and all those people were killed?

L: You mean when Ludlow was burnt? What'd they do? They couldn't

do nothing because the troops come in.

I: Yeah but I mean, I think they were. . .Wasn't there a 10 day period

before the federal troops got here when the miners attacked the

mines xx down there and there was a lot of fighting. . .?

L: Oh, there was a lot of fighting at Ludlow. They didn't go up

in the mines. They had their. . .CF&I had a bunch of mine

guards down around in there and they sent in a train load of

guards from somewhere. They come in from. . .They come from

Trinidad up, 2 big fla t cars with a bunch of guards in it . And

they come up into Ludlow there and they started to fighting there

and that firs t troop train called out there, they wouldn't go

with them. And then they called another crew out and they took

them up, see, up there. And they got up there and then this here

bunch that was in these cars, the biggest part of them I guess,

were killed off. Cause these lit t le guys, you know, these lit t le

south Italians were good ___ men, they knew how to fight. They

would dress but they knew how to fight these machine guns too.

They was trainedx, them guys. When they come over from Ita ly , I

guess they trained them over there, I don't know.

I: The companies had machine guns and stuff?

L: You ain't a kidding they had machine guns, lots of them. Yeah, Lloyd 05188-1 Page 18 28:11 they. . .oh, yeah they had a bunch of guards in the undertaking

parlors in Trinidad and Barney Sipes was there at one time. I

don't know how many, I couldn't te ll you. But there was quite a

few in there, see, during that x strike. But i t was a bad one,

there's no fooling about, i t was a bad one. I just hope they

never have another one like that. No, not in rr\y time anyhow.

I: What do you remember about Mother Jones? What kind of woman was

she?

L: Mother Jones? Well, she was a woman that was fighting for the

laboring man. And that's all I can say about. . .to te ll you the

truth about her. She was a fighter. She was a good fighter for

laboring men and she was fighting for labor all the time, was

Mother Jones. And course she may not havedone no dirty dishes,

but she sure done a lot of good work for the union. There's no

fooling about it . She was a lit t le old g irl. . . I was in Denver,

they had a xxx meeting at the union hall in Denver down on. . .I

forget what street it was on now, long time ago. Mother Jones

was there. And the day before we had this meeting she wanted

them to march on the state capital to Governor Ammons you know.

And they wouldn't do it . So this one day, the next day, we was

all down. . .No, that evening we went down there and they sent

a committee up to see Governor Ammons about the m ilitia being down

there you know, see. And Louis Tikas was a Greek. He xxx was from

the Ludlow tent colony, see. And he was there at the meeting that

evening, see. And we was all sitting in there, in this building and

this here fellow. . .these guys got up and reported about they'd

been up to Governor Ammons, the committee did. And this one fellow, Lloyd 05188-1 Page 19

I think he was from Montana, x I don't know, he gave his name

and a ll. I don't know what his name was now, I couldn't te ll

you. And he said to them, he said I don't think xxxxxx you'll

give your Governor a chance, you see. And he said something

about the reason why and I can't recall it . But anyhow Mother

Jones got up and she took that lit t le old cape, she wore a lit t le

old black cape and she took that off, you know, and beat her

fists on the desk there and she said, "Damn the governor, damn

you," she said. If you'd have listened to me we'd have marched

on the capital this morning. Tomorrow morning we're marching.

Well, the next morning. . . . 30:41

[End of side 1] side 2 L: I f you'd have listened to me we'd have marched on the capital

this morning. Tomorrow morning we're marching, Well, the next

morning, we marched on the capital, the state capital, with the

Ludlow flag on one side and American flag on the other and Mother

Jones in the lead singing union forever. When we started out

there wasn't very many but by the time we got to the state capital,

there was about 500 strong. And when we got to the state capital

Adams wouldn't talk to nobody. He had another guy, lawyer or

whatever he was, to xxx talk to us but xx he wouldn't talk. So

that ended that there, see.

I: What was the Colorado m ilitia like when they were down, when the

governor sent them down to the southern fields?

L: Oh, they were nothing but a bunch of scrums. That's all the

m ilitia was was a bunch of scrums they pick up off the streets.

They wasn't trained men.

I: Lloyd 05188-1 Page 20

I: they weren't?

L: Heck no. They picked that bunch of scrums to put in the m ilitia

and sent them down there,just cuz they had that uniform on they

thought everybody down there had to recognize the uniform. But

they was nothing but a bunch of scrums, was all that m ilitia was.

See. I don't know what they got now. I couldn't te ll you. But

in them days that's all they was, see. I got no use for the

m ilitia. I never w ill have, because one of them hit my dad over

the head and he was walking on the main street in Trinidad.

I: When did that happen?

L: Just walking.

I: When did xx that happen?

L: That happened during the strike.

I : Tell me about it .

L: My dad was living in Trinidad. We moved to Trinidad and we went

downtown and he went downtown with a fellow by the name of

Charley McCoy. When my mother went to the show across the street,

my dad went in the saloon to get a beer. In the White Front saloon

I guess, the one across the street, White Front Saloon. He come

out of the saloon, was just walking down the street and one of

them m ilitia hit him in the head and knocked him on the sidewalk

and they didn't know whether he was going to live or not and he

lost his hearing after.

I: Is that true? That's terrible.

L: Yeah. So why should I have any use for the m ilitia?

I: Yeah, no reason.

L: No reason at a ll. x : Lloyd 05188-1 Page 21 32:40 I: Did you ever hear of one of them named Linderfelt?

L: Huh?

I: Did you ever hear of Linderfelt, Carl Linderfelt? He was one of

the m ilitia guys?

L: No.

I: Hamrock, Pat Hamrock?

L: I know Hamrock. I don't know the other guy. Yeah and I know that

when Mother Jones they had her inxx ja il out at the hospital

there in Trinidad and when we was living in town. And I know the

women all ganged up and they was going to march out and see

Mother Jones out there at the hospital. Streets wasn't paved then

in Trinidad. And they marched around the corner and this here

bunch x was on horseback you know. I forget the guys name now

xxx that was head of the m ilitia there.

I: Chase?

L: Tate.

I: Chase. L: Chase, yeah, General Chase, they called him. And this woman

from Starkville herx name was Worwick. I forget her firs t name,

I know her last name was Worwick, she was Pablo Worwick's wife.

x x x x . They come up there and he was going to stop them a ll.

We stood on the sidewalk there by the bank. And Chase them all

back and she slapped him off his horse. And he wanted them to

shoot the women even. So nobody fired a shot. But the women

s t ill went on out to the hospital just the same. Yeah.

I: Did you ever hear of a union man down in Trinidad named George

Gibson?

k Lloyd 05188-1 Page 22

L: No, I didn't know George Gibson. I knew Ishiwood, Joe Ishiwood. 34:29 And I forget thatother guys name, that was there at that time.

He went up. . .He was up at the boat dock at Monument Lake after.

I forget what his name was now, an old man. He had a son too,

I can't think of his name. But that's xxxx where he was after.

Then there was another fellow down there in the south field at

one time, Johnny Simpson. And he went to north, he went north.

He's up at Erie, Johnny Simpson. I think he died x up there

in that country. Course, Johnny Simpson after that when I was

at the Puriton mine he was my boss out at Puritan mine, when I

was super.

I: Simpson mine, there was a Simpson mine up there wasn't there?

L: Yeah. Yeah, that was right there in Lafayette, right there down

at the bottom end of Lafayette was the Simpson mine.

I: Have anything to do with this Johnny Simpson?

L: No, no, no, nothing at all, nothing at all. No.

I: When did you join the union?

L: Me? 1909. And I left in 1923 when I put my card into Erie local.

And I was supposed to be exhonorated. See I started in bossing

in 1923. I never took it out after. See, from 1923 to 1961 when

I quit the coal mines, when I retired in 61. See, I never did

join the union after. They wouldn't let me go in the union hall

cause I was bossing see. But I always hired union men. When after

the strike was over and I was up north and xx I was at the

Boulder Valley mine ,they had that. . .at the Puritan when they

had the Wobbly strike.

I: You were? Lloyd 05188-1 Page 23

L: Oh yes. In that Wobbly strike there at the Puritan mine when

they had that killing in the Columbine you know.

I: Tell me all about that.

L: They had 6 men over there that was killed off in the Columbine.

One of the guys was driving mule for me over at the Puritan mine,

was a fellow by the name of JOhn Aston. He had a wife and 6 kids.

And there was a woman by the name of Mrs. Koffman. She used to

travel around with that bunch, you know, that x traveled from

one mine to the other you know, was a caravan you see. A caravan.

And they'd go and they'd always give them doughnuts and coffee in

the morning when they'd go. Well all the rest of the mines was

on strikes, 100 %, up there during that Wobbly strike, see. And

they went over to Columbine mine this morning, see, and there

was only 21 men working at that xxxxx mine. And they tried to

get them out. They'd been there the time before and nothing

happened. But this morning when they went over there they was

told by Lou Binan, the sheriff of that district, not to go in

that morning. Don't go in. They was over there at the fence you

see and they xxxxx wouldn't open the gate for them to go in, see.

And they were standing there at the fence. So there was two

guys there that belonged to the Wobbly organization, I forget the

name now. One was a big fellow and the other was a short guy. I

can't think of their names.

I: Embry?

L: Huh?

I: Might x it have been Embry?

L: No. x Lloyd 05188-1 Page 24

I: Jerry Davis?

L: It's a big fat fellow, big fellow. He pulled out right after

that trouble and went to Wyoming. Went up to Montana or Wyoming.

I : Go ahead, I'm sorry.

L: I can't think of what his name was now. But anyhow he was there.

Him and this other guy was there and they were the head of the. . .

leading the IWW, see. And they were there that morning. Then this

Lou Binan told them not to go in that morning cuz there's going to

be trouble. But anyhow they wouldn't listen to Lou. They started

over the fence then and when they started over the fence, the

shooting started. These guys got on the xxxx fence x and they

pulled the trigger and killed them. The state constabulary, see,

was what they were called at that time. And this one lit t le Greek,

he worked for me too. I don't know what his name was now. They

shot him right between the eyes. And John Aston he was shot too.

He was driving over at the Puritan mine and he had a x wife and

6 kids, they killed him. Well, there was 6 of them killed that

morning at the Puritan xx mine. But I was over at the Puritan

mine at that time, see and I was super at the Puritan mine and

I had nothing to do with that see. All I knew was what was going

on, was told, see. But they had us down 100%, see. All we could

do was take care of the pumps, allowed to run the pumps, take

care of the mules, that was it , see. They had the northern

Colorado out 100%, outside of the Columbine.

I: What started that strike?

L: Wobblies coming in. It 's a different union altogether than the

United Mine workers. Well, my boss come out there after and he Lloyd 05188-1 Page 25

38:37 told me. That was the fellow by the name of Worthington. He died after. He was operated on fo r mastoids and he died from

it. And he told me, he said, B ill, he said, get everything cleaned up here. He said there's going to be trouble, he said. And he said, get everything cleaned up, he said and that. And we

got carloads of paint in. We painted the whole camp, houses. Get

a ll the kids and women and a ll was painting. We was paying them

for it. Painted the tipple, put in a new. . .made a new bath

house, put in new boilers, you see, down there. And I don't know how much paint, they got carloads of paint and painted the whole camp there see. And he told me that they didn't want to sign up

with thexxxxxx Wobblies. He said, we're xxxx going to have to sign up with United Mine Workers but we don't want the Wobblies.

He said that's a dynamite bunch. We don't want them. So he said we get everything cleaned up. We even painted the fences

around the camp, see. I: Well xxx how come the United Workers wasn't in there organizing?

How'd the Wobblies get into the fields? L: I couldn't tell you that either because there was just a . . .I

was on the other side of the fence at that time, see, I couldn't tellx you. So they was in there anyhow, but I used to signs. . .

they'd go down the mine and plaster i t a ll over thex mine down there about jo in the Wobblies, jo in the Wobblies, from the bottom of the shaft clean into working faces, see. Had these here posters

you see. I : I never heard about that before. L: Well, they had them all the way in the mines. And we had a Lloyd 05188-1 Page 26

stinking hunch who was doing it but we couldn't point him out,

40:11 see. He was a Greek. But we couldn't point him out, see. But

then I went up to camp and talked to the men after when Sam

Tercher wanted me to go and see the men, see i f they'd go to

work, see. So I went up to camp and got a hold of the men and

the head guy there and talked to him that Sam had offered them

$8 a day. Ix think they was getting 7. I think that's what, I

couldn't say for sure, but I know he offered them more money

than. . .$8 a day I think i f they'd go back. And they said no,

no, they wouldn't go back. And I said, well, he wants to talk

to the committee. So that's when a fellow by the name of . . .

that big Zeke B a llic, you know, him. And Charley Lasso and

a Bulgarian by the name of Steve x Minhoff. . .No, not SI Steve. .

Steve oh, what the heck's Steve's x name. Well anyhow it was

Steve. I can't think of his last name. He said no. But anyhow

they went down to see Tersher see. But this here one guy, this

Steve, told him, he xxxxxx said no. He said i f he puts a price

on top of a pole, he said, 100 feet high, he said it'd go this

way, that way, he said, we don't fool around, we don't sign with

you. So I said help yourself. So they went down and seen

Tersher anyhow but they wouldn't go back for Tersher at a ll, see.

They just said that was it. It was either. . .got to sign up

the whole works. So that's the way it done.

I: So how'd the strike end finally?

L: They got pretty near everything they wanted. You see what they're

getting today, 80 some bucks a day for working and it's been

going on ever since. I think the companies have found out that Lloyd 05188-1 Page 27

41:56 they make more xxxxx with the union than they made before. Because

I don't think the unions. . .er, the companies is anything out

because everyx time the union gets more money they raise the

price of coal. See, and anytime the steel works, they x raise the

price of wages at the steel works, they raise the price of steel.

So where's the stockholders. They're nothing out. But people, some

people's blind, they can't see that. But I can see it you see.

Because you go out here in the south field now, you buy a ton of

coal it cost you $30 a ton. At that day, in them days it used to

cost you x 4 and a half, 5 dollars. But look what it is xx now, see.

I: But the price of everything is up, isn't it?

L: Well groceries and all is going up. What's the use of putting

wages up.If you put wages up, groceries goes up. So why. . Bring

groceries down, keep bringing it down, let wages come down too.

Huh, let's come back to where we used to be. I think we had

better times and more fun. I do. I did. I don't know whether. . .

I don't have no fun now cuz it cost toox much money to even go out

that front gate.

I: What were times like in the camps? I know that people didn't have

a x whole lot of money.

L: Oh, we had good times in the coal camps Buddy. We had good times.

We had baseball games every Saturday and Sunday sometimes. We had

the CF&I league in southern Colorado when I was in Starkville and

I used to catch for them. I used to catch for Berwin when I was

playing at Berwin, working in Berwin. I caught for them and we

had,the CF&I used to have field day meets in Trinidad. Every year

was field meets under the Rockefeller plan.

I: What were they like? Lloyd 05188-1 Page 28 43:28 L: Boy, i t was good. The Rockefeller plan was good. They had

committees you know. When Rockefeller come in, see, why they

built modern houses for all the coal miners when. . .after the

big strike. And done all of that see, and had all these baseball

teams. And they had this big doings every year in the central. . . 43:49 43:47 [Tape cut] in this country.

I: Was he the Welshman, Englishman of something too?

L: I think he was an Englishman or Welshman or one of the two, I don't

know for sure. But he was a heck of a good guy. Yeah, I sure

liked old Tom. Well I liked old Jim Dirimple too. He was one of the chief xxxxxxx mine inspectors too when I got my certificate. I got fire

boss under old Dirimple back in 1918. Mine foreman in 1918.

And then under Tom Allen, see, I got my superintendent! and that

and went on superintendent. And in Tom Allen I was superintendent

a long time, 30 years I was super.

I: Where'd you start supering?

L: At Puritan mine, yeah.

I: How was it when you changed over from being a coal miner to being

a super? How did your relationship to the other miners change?

What was it like?

L: Mine didn't change because I always liked them. I used to mingle

with them. One time I was mingling with my bunch at the Puritan

mine. I used to go out on Saturday night just the same;it never

bothered me. And even my boss, Sam Techer, he was general manager

and he told me, he xx found out I was running around. . .He said,

B ill, I sooner you not run around with your miners, he said, as

superintendent, he said. I said, listen Sam, I said, i f I can't Lloyd 05188-1 Page 29

45:11 run around with my miners you can take your job because I'm xxxxx

going to run around. I said, they're my xxxxx friends. And I

said, I've got friends and I said, i f you want the job you x can

have the job. No, he said, that's all right, he says all right.

I produced a lot of coal for the National Fuel Company at that

Puritan mine. And ____ 64,000 tons of x coal a month. In the

month of February, 1928, I put over 64,000 tons of coal up out of

that shaft. And I think it was in the month of 1929 or 30, now

I can't remember just which, 64,200 tons more than what I put

up in 28 at the Puritan mine, see. I seen 100 cars of coal go

out in the Puritan mine in one day with 4 engines pulling it .

I: Where was it going?

L: To Denver. Denver Post had the contract xxx-xxx-xxxxxxxx- for

all that coal. They had coal yards a ll over the state of Colorado

and Nebraska and Kansas and that.

I: The Denver Post were in?

L: Denver Post had the contract for all that coal. They used to

call it the Denver Post mine at one time.

I: How did they get in the coal business?

L: I don't xx know, but they were in it . Boy, and what I mean, I

seen the Puritan mine when I firs t took on up there, worked 7 days

a week and summer and winter. But then it xxx cut down to 3 and 4

days a xxx week. In the wintertime. . .In the summertime we'd shut

down with just a skeleton crew, just enoughx to drive the entries to open up the following winter, see. I seen me hire 500 men one

afternoon at the puritan mine.

I: 500:

L Lloyd 05188-1 Page 30 46:46 L: 500 men one afternoon. I was around the mine, went down the

mine. . .see in the month of September, firs t of September. I

went down the mine pumping in the morning and making the rounds, see.

I come up at noon and I ' l l te ll you, I ' l l never see the picture

like that in my life again and nobody else. I come up out of the

mine, there was between 6 and 700 men standing around XX on that

top waiting for work. The superintendent there at that time, I

was only the boss, and George Matthews was superintendent there at

that time, see. And I come up out of that mine and I ' l l te ll you

there was 6 or 700 men there and everyx man out there, it was

just like a day like today, nice sunny and warm, no coats on

nobody. Every man there had a white shirt on. Now you believe

that or not, that's the truth. I never seen so manyx men in my

life and I sit right. . .I told them wait till I come back from

dinner. I lived right up from the mine. So I come back from

dinner and I was in that office. From the time I come back from

dinner t i l l 5 xxo'clock that evening I xxx wrote out 500 checks

for work. . .slips to go to the doctor. That x was that day. The

next day the men come to work, see. Went down the mine with a. . .

I had a face bosses, put them in place and driver bosses and a ll,

we took them in, their tools in and a ll. And the next day they

got lined up. And the next day, the 3rd day after I hired them,

we was xxputting out 2000 tons of coal up that shaft. Now you

believe that or not, but that's the truth.

I: I belive it . Boy you could handle that much coal?

L: That's right . . .the xxxxxx Denver Post handled all of x it.

And I seen xx i t sometimes, have to hold thatxxxxxxxx whistle after Lloyd 05188-1 Page 31 48:36 quitting time to make an extra two car of coal for the Denver

post. But it wouldn't take us long to make a car of coal there

with that much coal coming up you know. Make an extra and all

the cars was loaded. . .all the coal was loaded in boxcars, see

lump coal. You see and the slack was all loaded in flat cars,

in these here iron steel cars. They couldn't load it in wooden

cars, the xxxxx slack, because it catch fire pretty quick see.

And the boxcars. . .I've seen boxcars catch fire, leave it too

long in the yard, see, for that bituminous coal.

I: Was that the most xxxx prosperous time? Was that the best times

you think in the 20s?

L: Oh, in the 20s and 24, you bet your life. That. . .Like I told

you, that Puritan mine worked 7 days a week. We had to shut the

night shift off to put timber down that mine. We put timber down

one whole night on the cage see. Boxcar xxx loads, we used to

drop the boxcarx loads right in front of the shaft. See and have

a bunch of men unloading and putting them on the cage and taken

down. We had 3 trucks down in the mine and each truck had two

men on i t , see. xxx A motorman and a nipper. They'd take the

coal and we'd make. . .where we needed the timber in the mine they

used to d____ i t out and send this motor to xxx that xxxxxx

district see. And we had drivers in that district that would

hook on to this ___ and go unload a whole truckload of timber in

that place, a whole truckload. You see, and we used to have to

do that about twice a month and put 3 or 4 boxcar loads of

timber down that mine in a shift. And all the way from 6 porters

up to 9 foot timber, see, down that mine. See because that coal Lloyd 05188-1 Page 32 50:02 was always around 8 or 9 feet of coal in thst mining places, see,

at that time. Yeah, see. But xx way back I think it was, well

sometime in the 20s, I can't. . .around about 30 I xx guess, 1929

or 30, when they pulled out of that Zimmerman coal, see and they

didn't have nothing in the Zimmerman coal. We had to take all

our stuff over to the other coal, half a bar of coal and that

stuff down in there and they didn't do nothing. We had to put

in big dams in that mine. We put in 7 big dams there to hold

the water back so it wouldn't x go down in the other place

because we had the dam office this other section that the

company left, see, out there with x Zimmerman's outfit. We

put in dams there. They were 5 foot thick, see. They were tapered,

tapered damsx, see, so if the pressure come behind, you see x they

were tapered so it would tighten the dam. If the pressure of the

water got behind, toox much pressure. And we built arches in

behind the dam, see, about 50 behind and about 150 feet in front,

big arches, cement arches. Then we had pipe going up in them, see.

That we put 200 pressure of cement, raw cement. You see, just mix

it in you know, and put it up in there with pressure up in there

after the cement settled so there would be no leakage, see. And

when it was settled and got ready for that water, see, behind,

there wasn't a drop of water come through them dams. And them dams

was 30 pound steel, railroad steel, cut up and put in them dams

across, cross wards, like that, in the middle of them dams.you

know what I mean.

I: ______bar.

L: x x x x Yeah, and wired together with galvanized wire, you see. Just Lloyd 05188-1 Page 33 52:00 a kind of a fence like, see. We put down. . .We had one whole

room, 250 deep in there, that we hauled in gravel during the

summertime while it was nice and warm, see, for getting x away

from the winter so we could keep a going. We filled xxxxx that

room plumb full, 250 feet deep, 20 feet wide, 7 feet high, with

gravel to hold for the wintertime so we could take this gravel

from there and take it to these dams. In the wintertime it was

froze on top, see. And we had a shaft over in the field and we

built a big bend in this shaft. You see we drove this shaft

from the bottom up, see. And then we had a ladder up on the

side of it and then we took and down on the bottom of that

shaft we put a xx chute and we had cars go in there to load this

gravel so we wouldn't delay us moving coal going up thex main

shaft. And x we put the gravel down this air xx shaft over there

in the field. See, and then we'd put a bunch of cars in there

and then we had an extra motor and this motor would take that

gravel and haul xx it xxx into the where the dams was and xxxxx

store it in this room,see. Then go back but they had. . .had to

leave the coal go through. So we didn't stop the coal and we

still put them damx , we put 7 dams in like that. Some of thex

best dams put in any mine in the state of Colorado, see. Even

old Welburn the big shot, . . not Welburn, but the big shot of

the National Fuelx at that time. . .Not Welburn, Welburn's CF&I.

But anyhow, he come down there. Pretty near put out plush carpet

for him to walk on to go down and see the dams, a red carpet. We

had to fill all the little water holes you know, with dirt so

he wouldn't get his feet wet/ Lloyd 05188-1 Page 34

I: When did the industry start to go down? What spurred the decline

of the coal industry?

L: Well, the oil coming in I guess. Oil coming in Northern Colorado

and gas, that butane gas and stuff like that come in and kind of

cat it down a little bit. And I think that's what started the

coal down in northern Colorado because you couldn't store it. You

couldn't store that coal. They tried it; they tried to store it.

We stored. . .xxxx right below the tipple there, below the boiler

house, we had 3 big pools made out in front. Fill them full of

water. We made them deep you know. And xxxxx had 2 big long. . .

what's the names on there?. . .Them cables, to carry the coal

out. A tram way out from the railroad cars. See, had two of them,

85 feet long. And we put the coal in them ponds, see. And covered

it over with water. We thought maybe we'll put them in there

in water, you know, so they xxxxx wouldnt catch fire for the

winter and then we loaded up and we sent the coal to Valmont, the

power plant in Boulder. And by gosh you know we had that coal

in there ______and then the minute we took the water off of xx

that, it caught fire.

I: When did you come down here? Let's talk about these fields for

a while?

L: Here? I come down here in 32, down here. And I come down. . .1

wouldn't have come down. . .1 come down for my bus, er my

brother-xx in-law.. Not my boss, my brother-in-law. He opened

this mine out here. He had the Jacko Lantern mine out here going

and he opened up that Monarch mine out here. And he had it going

and he had a fellow bossing for him out there, Paul Hansen, for Lloyd 05188-1 Pge 35 55:37 bossing for him out there and he give him foss, I think it xxx xx x was lO¢ a ton. Over all this. . .If he got so much coal out

and then he'd give him 10¢ a ton after and they pretty near

hogged the mine. And he wanted me to come down and go in partners

with him. He said we'd all get rich. Well he got rich and I

didn't. So I come down here with him,went out there with him and

I opened up that mine out there for him and I was doing good, see.

But I couldn't get along with Bill, he's too hot headed. So I

stayed with him anyhow for 9 1/2 years. I went over there and I

helped him open up this Ball mine after Johnny Ball got out. Went

over and cleaned it up, got it going, had that mine going. Then

I went up the xxxxxx canyon over there where you got Tiger canyon

and Pine Gulch Canyon, went over there with a fellow by the name

of. . .Bob Didominic and I went over there one day and we found

that vein. So we dug xx it out and didn't own no property. But

he went down to I think it was El Paso Texas and he bought 40

acres there. And then when he got them 40 acres there why I opened

up this Pine. ..er Tiger Canyon mine. I got it opened up and

he leased it. He leased it to a fellow by the name of Iry Cory

and John Holt, see. And then I went across the creek from there and

found this vein over there across the creek, what they called Pine

Gulch. I opened it up over there, got it going, put a machine in

there, built a tipple and everything over there. But I was still

bossing, taking care of this other xx mine over here, this Monarch

mine. See I was always taking care of that but I'd go over there

in my spare time. I got it opened up and he leased that to a

fellow by the name of. . . .Tommy. . .1 can't think of that blooming Lloyd 05188-1 Page 36 57:45

name now. I can't think of the name. But anyhow there was 3

guys in there. Harmon West was one of them, yeah, Harmon West

was one and Tommy Thompson was another, lit t le fellow. He'd

go to sleep with a pipe in his mouth, stand there and go to xxx

sleep, see, and his pipe in his mouth. And can't think of this

other fellows name, a xxx big fellow, but anyhow he leased it to

them. Well, I asked him about a lease for me. Well I come down

here on the point of the h ill and I opened a mine up they called

xx the Majestic, right at the point of the mine just as you're

going up the canyon there, right on the corner of that h ill.

I opened that up. And I used to go down there in the evening

after I come off from Monarch and run the machine there and

cut a place or two down there for the men for the next day. I

wouldn't get home t i l l 7, 8 o'clock at night. See me and my

nephew and my son-in-law, the one that died, him, and a nephew

that lived down here on the east end of Florence there, Floyd

Beer. So, hah, come home after I cut that place. See we loaded

the machine up with one of these lit t le buddy machines, loaded up

on a coal car. See, just a lit t le thing, wasn't much bigger than

that. Load it up on a car of coal and push out to the mouth of

this room, see. And I would come home, all of us come home the

next morning, went off to work and I went over to Monarch. While

I was over there my nephew he was down there at that mine and he

come a running up the mine. He said, Uncle B illy , he said come

on down, he said, that place caved in last night, see. I thought

that night when I was there that something wrong cuz it kept

chipping from the roof but I thought it was heat from the Lloyd 05188-1 Page 37 59:03 machines see and I took my picx and sounded all over. It sounded

solid, see, so I didn't pay no more attention to it. So I went

down there next morning. There was a great pot, it fell out.

About 14 feet long and several feet wide. It went right up

to a point. Both sides was just as slick as glass. It just seems

like we cut right in that, where them cracks was on the rim.

That thing come down, just missed the machine. Got all the tools

in at the face. I don't xxx think they ever got them anymore.

The drilling xxxxxx machines and pick and shovels was at

the face, I don't think xxxxxx they ever got them, but I never

went back there no more. I told them that was all I wanted of

that mine. So they leased it to a fellow by the name of. . .to hell,

I can't think of names any more. I forget what his name is now.

Frank is his first name. Hmm. I:

Did you ever see any accidents in the mine? L:

Plenty of them. Plenty of accidents. I've xxxxxxx carried them

out dead, out of the mines too.

I: Want to tell us a little about that? L:

Oh yes, I've seen one little fellow, little driver at Starkville. I was

driver boss there at the time, Starkville. Coming down the hill and

on one part and up on HI and HI, he coming down there and

he missed his spragues. He was trying to get them in along on

the parton see. And they had these big timber, great big round

timber like that, before the CF&I had bought the mine off Oregon of the Sante Fe. See they had these xxxxx timber at that time, come

from Oregon. And he got caught in between there going down

from them timber, see, just scalped him. Took of the back of Lloyd 05188-1 Page 38

his head here, scalped, just layed i t right over in his face.

See all his scalp, just like an Indian scalped him, see, layed

over in his face like that. But that poor lit t le bugger died

that night. Yeah, and then I had. . .1 seen a fellow up at Oak

View. He was rope rider and they used to bring the trip up on

the tipple you know and then going in. He cut the rope off and

throw it down on the empty tracks side. The rope rider would

see them and. . . 1 :0 1 :1 7

[End of tape]

1:02:25 Beginning of Tape Bill Lloyd 05188-2 Page 1

00:04 L: And the way I Want. There was a motor on the bottom of the

shaft that the power was on, see, and the motor was down on the

bottom, one of them camel back motors, and I grabbed this

motor, see. And I started in with this motor, you see. Any

other time the power wouldn't have been on. xxxBut the Snyder

was on for some reason. So I got on that motor and away I went.

And I met Big Zeke coming through what we call the tunnel coming

out. He'd been around, he made his rounds and he was coming

out. So I told Big Zeke, I said, Big Zeke, come on let's go.

I said there's a man killed in here. He says where? And I

told him. He said, why heck Bill, it ain't long I been through

there. He said everything was all right, he said. Well, I said,

they say he's dead. Let's go. So Big Zeke got on the xxx

motor with me. So away we went in. So we got in there and

when we got in there there was 4 men working together but there

was three of them sitting on the switch. You see the other

one was dead inside. There's 3 of them sitting at the switch

when we going in. And I said to one when we going in, I said,

where's he atx? And they said, in there, we got him out in

front of the car and the stretcher was laying there by him.

They never even took the stretcher in. The stretcher was laying

there by him. So I picked up the stretcher and I took it in, see.

And they had him laying out in front of the car. They had a car

in there, see, and he was laying out in front of the car in the

middle of the track but they had a blanket over him, see. So

I opened the stretcher up and I put it at his feet. And I got

on one sidsand Zeke got on the other xxxx side. Them guys Lloyd 05188-2 Page 2

1:28 wouldn't go in with us. Just me and Zeke, see. So when. .. I

got on this one side and Zeke on t he other side. I took the

blanket and I throwed it off him, see. When I did he was

looking right straight at me. xx His eyes wide open. And I said,

Zeke, I said, Jesus, I said, close his eyes Zeke. Zeke took his

two fingers like that, see, and shoved in his eyes and closed

his eyes, see. So then when he closed his eyes we lifted him

up and put him on the stretcher and we had to carry him, just me

and Zeke. Them other guys wouldn't help us. Me and Zeke carried

him from there. Leaned down and put him on top of the motor and

took him out and took him to the office. And then that's when

they took him to ____ , er take him to the undertaking parlor,

you see. He was a Mexican fellow and I forget what his name

was. And just about 4 days after that a fellow by the name of

Terpin got killed there. And Terpin, he was up in another

district and then in 11 south. And he was up in there and Terpin

was loading coal, a coal loader, you see. And he fired a shot

and he had what they called a safety prop up in front of his

car. But he had that all full of coal in front of his car. And

he had a big rib that he'd shot and was hanging up. It hadn't

come down. And he was x working on that rib. And the driver

hollered at him and asked him i f he was loaded. He said yes, see.

So he was working on this here rib so he can get it down you know.

And he hit the key point and overcome this big rib coming over and

he was backing up. And as he backed up, see, he stumbled

backwards and he fell over backwards. And when he fe ll over

backwards, he struck the side of his head on the wheel of the

car. It killed him. Right there, see, that's another one, see. Lloyd 05188-2 Page 3 3:13 It was there, see. So it killed Terpin, see. Then another fellow

there. I was superintendent this time. And Tom Carruthers was

bossing. A fellow by the name of Tom Carruthers, the one I was

telling you about is up in Raus County now. And this fellow Tom

went through the place and this fellow was chunking his car, see,

putting chunks on the car. Him and his boy was working together,

see. And they was chunking this car. And the old man picked

up a chunk and went to lift it up to put it on the car and the

chunk broke and come down and hit him on the toe, on the big

xxxx toe, see. The big toe was black and blue. Well, he worked

all day. Tom went through there and he never said nothing to

Tom when x he went through. So he was coming out that night

and a fellow by the name of Johnny Behatchy was running the

motor. And Johnny seen him when he was coming out that he looked

sick so he stopped and picked him up and put him on the motor

and brought him on out. So they called me xup from the bottom

and told me they had a man that was sick, so I better get the

doctor. So I called the doctor in Frederick that was the

closest doctor over there. We had 3 doctors. One in Frederick,

one in Erie and one in Longmont, see. So we called the one in

Frederick and he was over there right away, see. And so when

we got him, this guy he sat up in the mine office there, in the

back of the office when the doctor got there, see. The doctor

know who he was and that and I knew him at the time. I can't

recall his xx name. But anyhow that fellow sat there and he

drilled a hole in his own toenail with the doctor's instrument,

you see, in his own toenail. So we had a doctor in Longmont and 4:57 he livedxx in Longmont. So called up the doctor in Longmont and

told him to meet him up there which he did. And he got his

ceiling washed and everything and that. And the next morning

the doctor went down to see him, you see. So when the doctor

went down to see him that morning he was. . .he stood up alongside

the bed and the doctor said how you feeling? Just fine he

said, just fine. x x He dropped over dead. Right on, right

that quick on the bed, see, dropped over dead. So they had

an autopsy of the body. And they found out that there had been

a clot of blood that left that toe and went up through the veins,

you see, all the way up into the heart and stopped the heart, see.

That's was another. . .That's another case.

I: Well a lot of people died inxx the mines, didn't they? It's

a dangerous occupation.

L: I had another fellow in Boncarbo. Well there was two killed in

Boncarbo while I was there, I was superintendent there and two

men was killed there. One was a timberman and the other was a

nipper, see.^This timberman had no business getting killed, see.

He went in and pulled the timber out of the place you see and

standing around watching it like a big dummy, you know. And

when the darn place started to x come and come in, then he

started to run. And when a big rock come down acrossed up there

and slid across and hit him on the side of the head and broke

his neck, see, as he went to turn, see. It hit him. . you know,

when he went to turn, with that force you see, it broke his

neck. Before he died he had chewing tobacco in his mouth and

the fellows was right there and he said take this chew tobacco Lloyd 05188-2 6:32 Page 5

out of my mouth. So they take the chew tobacco out of his

mouth and that was i t , see.

I: What happened to the wives, what happened to the widows and

the orphans?

L: We had to take up a col lectin for them. They didn't have this

here pension as they got now. We take up a collection in the

mine. And this here. . .Another one that was going to kill

in Boncarbo, I 'll finish that up to. This other kid was a

nipper. His father-in-law run that Big Six Saloon on the west

end, that big 2-story brick on the west end. His father-in-law

run that. Put i t towards .you column . That was his father-in-

law. He was on the outside, he was checkweighman and he didn't

want to work as checkweighman. He wanted to go inside so I

put him inside and put him nipping on the motor inside. And I

told him, motorman, fellow by the name of Tap, be careful with

him, see, because he xxxxxx hadn't nipped very long. So

anyhow this nipper he started to nip and he nip about, oh, about

3 or 4 weeks, something like that. So I went in the side and

I was talking to the mine foreman in there, Johnny H ill, and I

said to Johnny, how's he doing. He said fine, when he passed

us on the trip you know. He says fine, he's doing good, he's a

good nipper. And I said to Tap, the motorman, I said, how's

your nipper. He says, he's a good nipper, Bill. I come out,

went home and got my dinner. I come back to the lamp house and

they said there was a guy hurt. And I said, who? And Tap

calledM up and said he'd hurt his nipper. I said, what? He said

tap called up and said his nipper was hurt. Jesus cripes, you Lloydxx 15188-2 Page 6 7:52 never seen such a sight in all your life. See, that mine was

low, see the cars was low in that. He went to couple a car

and he got his head too high and he got his head caught between

one of the cross bars and that just mashed his head here and his

eyes was out, see. So that's what you run into in coal mining,

see. And they brought him out, he was still alive. But he

didn't know it, see. So the doctor was there and he was standing

around there and he was fooling around. And I xx said why don't

you give him a shot? And the doc said he don't need it. I said,

you give him a shot. That fellow by the name of Doctor Raus you

see and a fellow by the name of Jules Straub was running the

check house and they was fooling around feeding the bull you

know. Made me mad. So they finally, they give him a shot. And

they called the ambulance, come and took him to Trinidad to the

hospital but he died the next morning, see. And his first name

was Richard. I can't think of x what his last name was, but his

first name was Richard. And then up there at that, well, down

there. . .now I'm going to tell you about another one, that

Billy Von. I don't know whether you know him or not. He used

to be organizer for the union, United Mine Workers, a big

organizer. Well, I was running machine in Tolerburg down there

for the CF&I. I'd fire boss for a long time. And they got

machines in Tolerburg, see, brand new machines and nobody'd

run them and I'd been fire bossing. And I knew gas when I seen

it. So they wanted. . .And I was a x machine runner. I knew how

to run a machine so when they got the new machines in there they

didn't have nobody to run them. Dave Hansen asked me if I'd Lloyd 05188-2 Page 7 9:23 take over the machine for a while. I said give me a contract

and I will. He said, yeah. So he said he'd give me a contract,

see, and I went on running machine. Well, I run the machine

about a month and I guess I opened up that contract, in pretty

good shape and I made pretty good money. And no kick on the

money, I made good money contracting. But then Bob McAllister

was inspector for the CF&I and he wanted me to go back on fire

bossing, see. So he talked me into it. So he asked me if I

could get a machine runner. So I went down to Berwin where I

had been working in Berwin, loading coal down there and Tom Von

was running a machine, where I was working. So I went and got

Tom Von to come up there and take that machine over see. So

Tom come up and took the machine over. And 4 days after he took

the machine over. . .no, 7 x days a fte r,. . .no, 4 days by God,

after he took the machine over, why he was cutting the place

number 4 room. I'd went through there in the morning, I was

fire bossing. Used to have to get 2:00 in the morning you know

and run through. And I seen that slip inx the roof and I

notified, I put it on my books and I put a deadline there.

Danger, bad roof, see, put across over a big slab. So that's the

only place xxxxx that was cleaned up. So Tom went in there and

he took that slab and throwed i t over in the gob and then paid

no attention see and the mine foreman he didn't pay no attention

when I xxx had i t on the books. S o when I went in xxxx there. .

I went for breakfast, I come back and I went down. We used to

go home for breakfast there, see, from fire bossing. So I went

down the slope and I was down the slope and a guy come running Lloyd 05188-2 2 Page 8

down there, the rope rider, come running down, "Man killed, he

11:00 said, man killed." I said where? He said in the main north.

I said Tom Von? He said yeah. And I xx knew right then, see, it

come to me that quick. He said yeah. So I xxx beat it up the

slope and I went in there but they'd already loaded xxx Tomx up

and took himx out of there. So I went in there and I seen what

it was, see. And they had Tom's helper, he had something wrong

with his back and he went home that morning and he had a green

helper. This green helper put this here jack pipe up in the

slip, you see, up in this slip and when the machine was loading.,,

he loaded, he cut the place and he was loading up, see. As he was

loading up on the truck, see, this jack pulled up in that slip

and the slip come down and h it Tom on the back of the head and

knocked his head down in the pan, see this pan where they load

the machine in, is about 6 inches,xsee. And xxx cut him, got

his head right through here and the pan went in his head here,

laid his brains out in the truck. That was the end of Tom. Well,

they didn't have nothing for it them days, for pensions or any­

thing for coal miners. So I took up $900 for that man and his

wife, family, through that mine, going through you know, getting

people to donate so much money. I got $900 for them, you see,

for Tom Von there. Then 7 days after Tom got killed a kid by

the name of Hobo Jones, they called him. I forget what his

f ir s t name was. We called him Hobo cuz th at's all he done was

hobo around the country. He knew all the hobos and I used to

know the hobos too at one time. I knew a lot of them. I draw

trap for a lot of them. And Hobo anyhow he was riding rope, see. Lloyd 05188-2 12:38 Page 9 And a fellow by the name of Harry Bebella xx was running a

hoist, see. So Hobo went down this entry gathering the loads

coming out and he xxx had on 4 loads and he dropped in on what

they call Number 1 hoist to pick up another load see. Well, he

picked up this load and as he coming around the corner, he got

off on the wrong side and it was pretty narrow, And these cars

rolledx him on his rib, you see. And when the cars got by he

fell out in the middle of the track, see and Harry come on up

you know and when he come up there was xxx xx nobody to cut the

rope off and the trip started on down towards the bottom. So he

had to pull the first load off the track and he went down to see

where Hobo was and there was Hobo laying in the middle of the

track. He'd been caught. They brought Hobo out and I'd been

out of the mine then. I was fire bossing, I'd come home you know.

And I'm out of the mine and I went down to see, he was down the

office when they told me, see. So I went x down to see Hobo and

Dave Hansen was super there. So he told Dave that he had so many

dollars coming in the office. I don't know just how much it was

now. But anyhow he had so much money coming and he told him to

pay his board. He owed so much to the boarding house. Pay the

board and he said I owe the clubhouse so much, he said, and what's

left he said give to that little baby in the boarding house. SHe

was just about that high, a little girl. Little Hobo used to

carry her around all the time see. And he said give it to that

little girl. And Dave said, no, he said, we're going to keep that

for you for tobacco money, he said, when we send you up to the

hospital. Yeah, he said, you ain't xxxxx sending me to no L 1oydd 05188-2 Page 10

hospital. Dave said, oh, yes we are. He said no you ain't.

14:18 He said, where you sending me? He said where do they always

send guys? And he said you know Dave, he said, I'm going where you my sister. . .his sister committed suicide xxxx know in Trinidad.

And he said I'm going with my sister, he said. And he said

you are? He said yes. He said, who do we notify, where's your

folks, he said. Well he said, who did they notify? Dave said I

don't know. Who should we notify? Well he said, notify the

undertaker, that's who you notify. He said that's where I'm

going. But I went in ;I was talking to him and I said How are you

doing? E-very bone on his le ft side, all through here, every

bone in his body was broke, all except this right arm. And he

said I still got a good arm Bill for pitching. That's the words

he said to me. Cuz I knew him when we was kids you know in Delawa.

When Delawa firs t opened up. His folks was the second family

that moved into Delawa when Delawa opened up. My family was the

firs t family lived in Delawa see and his was the second. That's

how I knew Hobo Jones and he traveled all around the country, see,

there. So that's another one was killed in Tolerburg, see, Jones.

And up north of course I don't know of anymore that I. . . .

I: That's plenty. I heard enough xxxxxxx xxxxx disaster stories

to last me for years.

L: Oh, I was over there at Delawa when that blowed up you know. I

didn't work there no. I went over there, but there was nothing

you could do, just stand around there. It blowed up twice.

Killed more at the mouth of the mine than on the dead end. Why,

when everybody, bartenders and clerks and all went up the mouth Lloyd 05188-2 Page 11 15:52 of the mine to see what was going on it blowed up again and

killed them. Blowed them clean down the canyon.

I: I never heard that.

L: You didn't? Well, that's what happened there, see.

I: At Hastings?

L: No, in Delawa, Number 6. Number 6 mine. Oh, x Hastings, heck,

I think there's a. . .what is it 6. ..I think there's 6 men still

in Hastings. I xxx know 2 men that's in there now. Tom Mansville

and Burt Figs is still down the slope in Hastings mine right

today. They never did xx get out. They couldn't get them out, see.

I knew. . .1 worked along. . .1 dug coal alongside of Tom

Mansville, me and my dad, alongside of Tom Mansville and Burt

Figs and I know them personally and I know they're in the mine,

you see.

I: How many men were killed in this?

L: 126 in Hastings. 13 killed in Bowen. 56 in Starkville, see was

killed in Starkville. And 13 in Cokedale, see 13 Cokedale. And

Delawa xxxxx I think was 78 I think was in Delawa. xxx I think

that was what was killed in Delawa. There was a lot of explosions

in that time down through there you know.

I: It sounds like it.

L: Oh yeah, heck yes. I seen a lot of xxx poor buggers brought out.

I: We're about to go xxx down and spend a week down in Cokedale.

There's still peopled living in that town down there.

L: Down where?

I: Cokedale.

L: Oh, Cokedale's incorporated. Yeah I know a lot of people still Lloyd 05188-2 17:23 Page 12 in. . .1 know Harry Curry. . .er, not Harry Curry, Johnny Curry,

him and his wife is still there. I think she runs the post

office there yet, down in Cokedale.

I: Do you know somebody named Ferraro? Emilio Ferraro?

L: Oh yeah. Emilio was. . .1 think he was coke oven boss down there

when I was down there at that time. Yeah, and Johnny Johnson.

I think he's mayor there now, down in Cokedale. I think he's

running for election again. I see in the paper where he's

running for election inCokedale. Oh, I used to know pretty

near all of them in Cokedale at one time. See, but Cokedale. . .

You know they didn't tear much of that town down, but they tore

down pretty near all of Boncarbo up there. Cuz I know Johnny

Belsford I think is still living up in Boncarbo, the first

house on the right hand side as you cross the bridge up there.

I think he still lives there. I think he's been retired. The

union's been keeping him ever since Boncarbo shut down. After

Boncarbo shut down he complained of his heart and the union

started keeping him. So it's been keeping him ever since, see.

So he's doing all right.

I: Did you ever run into a guy named Basinelli?

L: Who?

I: Basinelli.

L: No, I know Ernest Medina down there and Alec Chavez. Alec Chavez

used to be tipple boss up at Boncarbo. And Bob Tapia. Bob

Tapia worked up there and Sam Martinez, he worked up there.

99% Mexicans worked in Boncarbo and if I'd have been a Mexican,

it'd xxxx been 100 percent, in Boncarbo.

I Lloyd 05188-2 Page 13

18:57 I: That's interesting.

L: And the xx same way in Van Heuten, New Mexico, over there when

I was working at VAn Houten. And see it was all Mexicans over

there, the biggest part of them. Oh there was about 90%

xxxx Mexicans worked in that mine.

I: Were these camps like segregated? Did the blacks live in one

place. . .?

L: No, they. . .no, no, no, no. Not in the last, the last 4 going

off. They all lived together. It dort't make no difference.

I: The people got along and. . .?

L: Yeah,, yeah. And Mexican next door, nigger next door to you,

live here, and nigger. Didn't make no difference. They all

c____. Like way back in 1900. . .le t's see 19. . .I believe 1909. .

No, take it back. About 1906 or 7 back in there, back in 1906 or 7

these black men say that they didn't have freedom. That's what

burns my ta il feathers up everytime I hear it over the TV, see.

It just burns my x ta il feathers up that these black men say

xxxx they didn't have xxx freedom. They're lie rs, bit liers

too. Because down there in Bowen when I was a kid, I remember.

I was working with xx my dad, see, and they had niggers down

there working the mine. They all congregated together, went to

the saloon together, drank beer together. Well there's freedom. . .

free then. They run around, they played ball together. Well they

was all free then and that was back in 1906 and 7. And when I

went up to. . .When I went up to Raus County on that vacation

I was telling you about I went down there going up Elk River,

just returned to go up Elk River on the 4th day of August. We

just turned in two great big tents. Oh, god, looked like great Lloyd 051882 Page 14

21:00 army tents there. I bet you there was 500 niggers there, having

a. . .celebrating the 4th, Emancipation day, the 4th of August,

see. That's when Lincoln set them free, see, Emancipation Day.

Well they invited us to come over there and eat chicken or any­

thing we xxxxwanted, but we didn't stop. Well we stopped to

say hello and everything, see, but we went on up the river. Well,

they was enjoying theirself. They was mixing and you go up to

Oak Creek, up at Mount Harris and them, they were x all mixed i up outside of a few over there at Hickory Flats as they called

it , they congregated over there, but heck you see nigger families

living t here and living there. They were free then. And I used

to go to a nigger barber all the time in Bowen. Oh Pete Moss, he

was a barber and he xxx used to dig coal in the mine;in the

evenings he'd barber down at the saloon. I'd go down there and

get x my haircut down in the saloon. And they were free then.

And when x we moved up to Lester, we had nigger rope riders

and nigger drivers in the mine at Lester and at Raus. They were

free then; they went where they wanted, they done what they

wanted. They lived among the white people then. And then they

turn around when they get back there and say they're not xxx

free because they don't get 2 or x 3 million dollars for playing

baseball. That's where I madex a big mistake see. I was a ball

player too. I should have got me a million dollars too cuz I

could have went up the time Babe Ruth and them went up but I-

didn't do it , see. No, I was a pretty good ball xxx player and

I got the results there see, in there, I was catching see. I

used to knock home runs too. I used to get grand slams too, down

in Trinidad d istrict. I got $60 for hitting x one home run one Lloyd 05188-2 Page 15

time in Trinidad, over the fence, 3 men on base, grand slam

hone run. It beat Primero. Yeah, that was during the field day.

That's the CF&I field day that they had.

I: What were those field days like?

L: Oh, boy I'm telling you they had big parades in Trinidad. They

had floats from every coal camp that they had, they bring floats

in and they had bands come in. They had all kinds of these here

flower girls and whatnot and oh, they used to build some of the

beautiful xxxx floats you ever seen. And the baseball teams

used to parade up the streets, up Main Street and Commercial

in Trinidad before the game, before they went out to the parkx.

They had these here Scotsman used to play this saccor football.

I: Oh really?

L: Oh, I'm telling you they had everything. No fooling. They used

to run these special trains from x every coal camp out there

the CF&I had into Trinidad, see.

I: CF&I put on a barbecue or give you some beer or something? t: No, no, no they didn't do that. They never done that. You had

to put that on yourself see. But there was all kinds of

concessions there if you wanted it. See all kinds of concessions.

Yeah. And pretty near everything you wanted, see. And we went

up to Primero one time on a field day meet, clean up there in

the mountains, see. And they put on. . .run a special train up

there, see, to wait for you. And then when we won the championship

at Starkville on the field days, er in that season we won the

championship in Starkville, they got a special train on the D&RG

train from Trinidad to Pueblo to Steel works and sent pretty near Lloyd 05188-2 Page 16 23:56 all of Starkville up to Pueblo the day we played ball up there,

and took us to the clubhouse and they gave us a big meal there

at dinner at the clubhouse and then had these great big limosines

and took us from there to the baseball park, you see, to play

ball. After the ball game they took us over to the. . .took us

back to the clubhouse, we changed clothes, put us on the train

and fed us our supper going home on the train. That was a CF&I

put out.

I: Who won the big game?

L: We did, 4 to 1. We won the championship thatx year under the

CF&I, see.

I : Are you down now Ron?

12:-^No, we're still running but I thought maybe you might want to

break up and go inside, and relax a little.

I: I think we should. I feel like I'm a baked Alaska here. I know

you must be hot.

L: Oh, it's getting kind of warm.

I: Do you mind if we go in the house and talk some more or. . .

L: No. Oh sure if you want to. Don't make no difference. Now

much more news you want?

I: I want everything you've got.

L: I don't know where to stop.

I: Your daughter said that you have your dinner about 4:30 usually,

your supper?

L: Oh, sometimes 6:00 too. Well i t 's only 5 minutes to 3.

I: Sure, right. So do you mind i f we spend some time with you?

L: No, no. Help yourself. We'll go in there and I don't know whether Lloyd 05188-2 Page 17

that cooler. . .Will that cooler interfere?

I: No. Oh, to turn it on? Yeah, but that doesn't. .. We don't 25:22 w need the cooler on, but just that there's not as much sun

inside.

L: Okay.

25:30 29:13 [Camera talk and moving inside] v [Tape cut]

L: . . . in Boncarbo, in Tolerburg. . .[Talk about lighting.]

There's that lamp, 60 years old.

I : Where'd you get this? Did you have to buy this?

Lx That lamp?

I: Yeah.

L: Yes, I had to buy it. Bought it from the Kohler company. Yeah.

xxxx I had. . .1 used to have a Wolf at one time.

I: Let me finish getting set up here.

L: Lots of maneuvering, huh?

I: Yeah, too much, too much sometimes.

L: You got enough light in here?

I: Yeah. Yes, it's fine. You got yourself a real nice bright

kitchen.

L: Always going to make enough light. I know I seen them before.

My kids used to take pictures and he had them. Boy, I'm telling

they're bright. You want to turn this one off? Or you want this

one on? Here's a plug in over here if you want a plug in.

I: Ron says no, so. Wait a minute.

L: YOu think you've got enough light.

I: Yeah. Its. . .The problem is that this light has a xxx yellowy Lloyd 05188-2 Page 18

31:19 color and the sunlight has a bluish color.

L: You canp plug i t in over there. There th a t's daylight. That's

daylight.

31:43 [Still discussing lighting and setting up]

32:42 L: I think i t was the day before yesterday I sent him down. She

clipped him. There's a lot of them around here. The goddamned

women surprise you. They want th e ir dogs bred and i t 's women,

not the man. The woman called me up and want to breed xx their

dog. Ah Christ. I'm tellin g you i t 's a____ . Not only old

women, young g irls, wants th e ir dogs bred. Oh h ell, xxx I

tell them xxx no, he's not for sale. I won't let him go out.

Uh huh. One woman here from Canyon City ju st about two weeks

ago called me up. This down here you know Mrs. Kozak, the one

that clips him, see. She always sicks them on me because he's

the prettiest little dog around here you know, little silver

poodle you know. And she xalways sends them around here. Come

around. I had 3 from Canyon City now and about 4 from Pueblo.

I said, no, nothing doing. Hell, he goes crazy. If you breed

a g dog you can't keep him in the house and he. . . . 3 3 : 3 4

[End of side 1] m issing transcript side 2

L: See my wife had her leg cut off from diabetes, sugar diabetes. Got

3 4 : 4 0 gangrene set in the foot. See and they took her down here to this goddamned hospital and they cut her leg off and after that,

well, when they cut the leg off they xxxx might as well cut herx

head off cause she died right then, as far as that goes. But Lloyd 05188-2 Page 19

34:50 oh, she lived after that but I had x to. . .took her to Pueblo

and got a leg for her and she done pretty good with that leg,

walking good with that leg. We went to El Paso, Texas. Went

down there and we was down there for a while and then she got

water. She all swelled up with water and I had to bring herx

back, so we come back and doctor called the doctor down here and

he come. And the minute he seen her he said you're xxxx going

to the hospital Mrs. So he took her down to the hospital and

he got the water down all right and she was down there and then

she got that one foot, she had something wrong with the toe and

it started swelling up and she got gangrene in that xx foot so

they had to cut it off below the knee. Well hell, might as well

have cut her head after that. So she went down here to the

hospital and ___ for a while and then they took her from the

hospital. . .er, no, I xxxx brought her home after that, brought

her home and hell she got so I couldn't take care of her. It was

a 24 hour a day job. She. . Goddamned it kept me going night

and day. So she seen that. I xxx didn't know what the hell So they they were doing.xx her and that daughter xxx figured i t out.

She xxx called up the manor down here, the rest home and wanted

a room down there and I didn't know it . The woman called me

up. I was sitting here one day and the phone rang. I x x went

to the phone and woman down at the manor said Mr. Lbyd? I said,

yeah. He said this room's ready for Mrs. Lloyd down here at

the manor. I said what? He said this rooms ready down here

for Mrs. Lloyd xxxxxxxxx at the manor. I said all right, just

a minute. So I hung up the phone anyhow. I went in. . She was

in there in the bed. I said what in the heck did you do? Lloyd 051882- Page 20 36:25 Did you call up the manor for a room? She said yes. I said

what for? Well she said, it 's getting you down. She said you

can't take care of me anymore. She said it 's getting you down.

There's no usex you getting down and me too. She said I'm going

down to the xxx manor. I said what for, I'm taking care of you.

No, no, she said, I'm going to the manor. So the daughter at

that time, she was working over here at the Pen, see, she's

working at the women's pen. Well, she's a technician over there.

She had to retire too. Goddamn womans making 1600 dollars a

month and x have to quit a job like that is bullshit buddy. So

she had to quit, see her back got her down see. So I had to

take her down to the manor. She wanted to go so I took her

down there and she was down there 20 months down at the manor.

And I went everyday. I went down to xxx that manor and fed my

wife everyday and even the evenings down there too, once and

twice a day. I f I go fishing in the morning up Louis dam I'd

be back in time to go down and feed my wife down at the manor.

E-veryday, just as regular as the day come in.

I: What was. . .When did you get married?

L: Married? I was married 1915 in Walsenburg, 1915. On May 11,

my anniversary just passed May 11.

I: Could I unplug this refrigerator for a minute because of that

noise?

L: The switch? Oh yeah, yeah, pull. . .pull it out.

I: I ' l l plug in back in.

L: That's all right, pull it out.

I: Its ' not going to get hot in there. I wanted to ask you. . .So Lloyd 05188-2 Page 21

38:12 she was with you when you were xxx working in the mines and

she was with you all the time after you became super and. . .

L: Oh yes. We. . .

I: Well what was her life like? What is the social arrangements

for the wife of a super? YOu said that they told you not to

hang xxx around with the men, who were her friends?

L: Oh, she had all the women in the coal camp. They used to have

parties and that you know, in the coal xxx camp all the time.

They was more sociable in the coal camps than they are around

here. Everybody knew x everybody in the coal camp. You don't

know nobody. You don't xxxx even know your neighbor around

here half the time, see. I butt into my neighbors, see. But

I know this woman next door, Mrs. Brasse, her husband was an

old coal miner, see. Old John Brasse. He worked out here

in Radiant and then they owned a ranch up here on the Hartz

Gravel. . the south Hartz Gravel and then John got killed right

there in his garage, right out there in that garage. He was

killed in that garage there. His two kids was working on the

car, see. They took a motor out of the car and was overhauling

it in the garage, see, back that old place right there. They

was overhauling it. And they got the motor back in and that.

One of the boys got up in the car and they had the pickup in

the back and they put the jumpers through the window to start

the car, see, putting on the battery to start the car. Well,

they didn't xxx know the car was in gear, see. Well, x when they

put the switch on in the car to start the engine the car jumped

forward and John was standing in front of the car, him and his

other boy, Bobby, the one that's in Phoenix Arizona. Course Lloyd 05188-2 Page 22 39:38 Bobby was around the corner, but John' was right in the front.

So it smashed John's two legs, tw ice below the x xxxxxxx knee

and one of them just mashed him. And the other one mashed. Took

him down to the hospital and he died that night, see down here. And John was in his 80s when he died. And that left her a widow see. Yeah.

I: In the camps did the. . .You were the super, when you were living

in the camps, in a coal camp, and you were the super, would your

wife entertain and have parties for other people?

L: Oh God yes, we had parties every week and dances. They'd move

the chairs out and have a dance and some guy in camp would have

an accordian or may be a violin or guitar. They'd have dances

and move the furniture out and they were all together and have. . .

well we used to go on picnics every weekend in the summertime

too. But the wintertime they'd go and they'd have parties in in the house, see. Down xx the afternoon or something like that.

They'd go to your house today and the other house tomorrow and

travel around you know from different houses. You didn't only

know one x guy in camp you knew everybody. And the women didn't

only know one woman, she knew all the women,, in camp see.

And they used to go to shows. They'd take and load up the kids

in the car and take off and go to the shows and would drive

clean to Longmont to the shows. My wife and my two would drive

to clean to. . .from Van Houten drive clean into Raton to the

shows in the evenings.

I: What kind of x car did you have?

L: Well, down there Ihad a New xxx Yorker. I had a New Yorker when Lloyd 05188-2 Page 23 41:13 I was living in Van Houten and I traded it in x for a Buick.

And I had that Buick, Buick Special, I had that xxxBuick for

23 years, I kept that Buick, see. And I sold i t when I come

back from down there. I had it 23 years and I bought this here

station wagonx. I got a Rambler Station wagon out here now. I

bought that in El Paso Texas at an auction, see. It only had

20,000 miles on it , see. And they had it up for bid down

there. And I was on. . .Some other guy, him and I were bidding

on this car and it got up to $750 and I bid 775. He said. . .Oh,

I said. . .No, he said 800. I said 825. And he said you just

bought yourself a car. I said that's what I wanted. I'd have

went a thousand dollars you see because i t was worth more than

that. So I got it for 825. It only had 20,000 miles on i t , see.

A 67 model. Well, it was 68 when I got it , see. And I've had

it . . .oh,let's see. I've had it about 4 or 5 years now I

guess. I drive it. I don't use to gas. I got weaned. I can Eleven mile drive from here to xxxxxx, that's 50 miles. I can f i l l the

tank about. . .oh, I can make about 3 or 4 trips to Eleven mile

and the same way to Louise dam.

I: You sti11x do a lot of xx fishing?

L: Oh, I do lots of fishing. Oh yeah, last year I caught a great

big old Northern Pike over here at Eleven mile, 20, 30 inches

long. He weighed 7 pounds. Yeah, rainbows, oh yes, I catch

a lot of rainbows. Me and my son-in-law from Pueblo one day, we

got 65 down in Monument lake, with a bunch of us around. You

know with all the kids and that that was around there they was

all fishing but me and him caught 65 of them for the bunch of Lloyd 05188-2 Page 24 43:07 us and we done the same thing up at Louise dam. We filled up

the whole bunch of us.

I: What do you do with all those fish? Eat them?

L: I put them in here. My share of them. Well, I sometimes I run

out in the summertime. I haven't been doing much fishing this

year to what I generally do. But this time of the year I

generally have my freezer full and then I give them all x away,

give them away. No, that lamp is as good today as it was when

I x quit.

I: How's the striker work on it?

L: I think it worked. No, that ain't the striker. That's it there,

yeah. Pull it down, pull that down, yeah, that's it. I don't

know. Maybe this flints gone. No, it's still working. Yeah.

I: Well, when you were talking to Eric a little earlier I kind of

missed some of the stuff that you were talking about. I kind of

overheard it. But I was wondering if maybe you could. . If you

could recap a little bit about that period, the early,early

days. I over heard you saying that you had some experience aroum

the time of that 1913-14 strike. You were around. . .

L: Oh, I was down in Trinidad sunmertime, but I was xx in Denver

most of the time. See, I was going to school up there. See I

went to Jackson. . .1 went to the YMCA automobile shcool in

x Denver for a xxxwhile and then I graduated from there, from

the automobile school and then I went over and transferred to

the Jackson automobile school there. And I went there for a

long long time, there. Then when we left there my mother was

running the hotel in Walsenburg and I come down there, see, when Lloyd 05188-2 44:40 Page 25

she was running,xxx and all the union organizers was eating

at the house there. I come down there and me and my brother-

in-law, Bill Beer, opened up the Sears and Sheers garage in

Walsenburg. And we run that quite a while, see Sears and Sheers we garage. Well the strike ended, see, while xxx was in that

garage, see. And they raised the wages in the mines to xxxx.

5.25. It was 3.25 and they raised them to 5.25, see a day. So

I quit the garage. I told him you can have it and I quit it.

And I went back to the mines. I went to Oak viewx , you see.

So I started xx working in Oakview then, see, after that.

I: So there were some xxxx raises after that, after that strike?

L: Oh yeah a lot of raises after. I xxx want to tell you one thing

that I done. I better try to get this in. I won!t tell you

when. 19. . .1 think it was 1916 if I'm not mistaken, either

16 or 17,x now it's one of them two years. I don't know which

now it was. But after the big strike, see it was after the big

strike that Rockefeller owned the CF&I at that time, the biggest

part, the biggest stockholder, see. Well he came out here from

back there and he went from one mine to the other, see and he

went in the mines, Rockefeller did and his wife went around the

camp from house to house seeing how the women was living. And

he went in the mines to see how the miners was working and what

they had in their buckets and he was eating right out of their

dinner buckets and I'm the one was running the motor in Starkville

x that took John D. Rockefeller in the Starkville mine. In I think

it was 1916, if I ain't mistaken. And I took John D. Rockefeller

in the Starkville mine and after that that's when they started Lloyd 05188-2 Page 26 46:19 the Rockefeller plan, see and they built all of them modern

houses in the CF&I coal camps, see. And that's what they called

the Rockefeller plan, see and they had these baseball teams

that was practically salaried teams all of them. And every

coal camp in southern Colorado and all the superintendents in

southern Colorado was the managers of these teams you see. And

they used to compete with one another, see. Them in Las Animas

county used to play the best two out of three games you see in

Las Animas county. We used to play together until they see whoxxx

was the champion and the best 2 out of 3 in Huerfano County

used to see who was the champion. Then the champion from Las

Animas county and Huerfano county, see,. Then on field day, see,

the big field day that they had with the CF&I, they would play

it out in Central Park in Trinidad. But only one year we went

to Tercio and played it in Tercio, see. That was during that

time, see.

I: Were you a player then or a manager?

L: I was playing, I was captain, I was catching then like I was

catching then for Starkville at that time. Then another time

I was catching for Berwin, you see, I caught for Berwin. Then

another time, when I quit Starkville and went to Berwin I was

catching for Berwin. Another time I was catching for Tolenburg

when I was up there. See, they had a team there and I wasxxx

catching for Tolenburg. You see. And then I used to go

around and play around there. I used to be called. . .With

Aguilar come, youknow, we'd go over xx to Dawson New Mexico. I

used to catch over there. I used to get $15 a game for catching

in them days. Now look what they're getting for catching. Lloyd 05188-2 Page 27 48:00 I: Who was the best team in this area?

L: Well, Coal Creek had a good team here. I don't know who.. .

I: No, no I x mean who was the xxxx best xxxx team in southern

Colorado.

L: We always had a good team in Starkville. Starkville.

I: How was Picktoo?

L: Picktoo had a good team too but Picktoo never did take the

championship. We played Picktoo all the time in. . .Well, we

played Picktoo one time in Trinidad for field day and we beat

them 9 to 1, Yeah. Yes, I used to know a lot of them playing

in Picktoo. Used to know Joe Irons and Mugsy Irons and, what

the heck was the other's name? Joe, Mugsy and Sam. Sam Irons,

I don't know whether you know them or not.

I: Yeah, where did you get. . .Where were you working when you

became a super of a mine?

L: Boulder Valley Mine when I firs t started.

I: And you were bossing. You were foreman or . . .?

L: I went. . .They promoted me from foreman to superintendent.

At the Puritan Mine, I started in the Puritan xx mine as night

boss. Then I was transferred from night boss to day boss. Then

the superintendent retired, Joe, er John, er George Matthews

retired, see and they called me out of the mine. And him and

Sam Tersher was sitting in back of the xxxx mine office when I

come out. So when I come out Sam Tersher said, B ill, yotfre the

one for the job, superintendent, take George's place. George

was retiring. He'd been sickly and getting old. So George

quit and I took over his xx job as superintendent at the Lloyd 05188-2 Page 28

49:25 Puritan mine. Then I le ft the Puritan mine after superintendent

there. I come down here in . . .with my brother-in-law out here

in the south field. We was all going to get rich but he got

rich and I got poor. So I had a chance to go down from here, ent you see, to southern Colorado, superintendxxx at Boncarbo for

the St. Louis Rocky Mountain Pacific Coal Company. . .No, no, take

it back. For the American Smelting and Refining Company at

Boncarbo, you see. So I went down there and Charley Gartet was

the General Manager there so I went there and got the job,

superintendent there at Boncarbo. Well, I worked there 5 1/2 years

and the American Smelting pulled out. They shut it down. So

I got a job superintendent then over at New Mexico for the

St. Louis Rocky Mountain and xxxxxxxx Pacific Coal Company, see.

Under Andy Grasi was General Manager there, see. Well, I was

there 7 1/2 years when they shut down there. Kaiser bought all

of that out and he shut it down. Soon as he bought it out there.

I think shut a big bunch of us men. . .bunch of the men were

laid off at Kaylor and a big bunch at Van Houten, a big bunch

at B rillia n t, laid off, see. He bought that whole works up, see.

So that le ft us all in the wind so I sold out everything I had

there and I moved to Greeley with my son. He was a scoutmaster

in Greeley, see. And I went up there with him. He wanted me

up there so I went and lived with him and then we went. . .He

was transferred back. . .from there back to North Platte, Nebraska.

So we moved back to North Platte Nebraska, see. Oh, we was there

quite a while and then pretty soon they transferred him from

North Platte Nebraska back to Cedar Rapids Iowa. So we went back Lloyd Page 29 05188-2

51:13 to Cedar Rapids Iowa, see. So I didn't like it . . .No, I'm a

lit t le head of my story. Wait. So he moved from Nebraska back

to Cedar Rapids Iowa and I moved from North Platte Nebraska right

here where I'm living now, see. And then he went to Cedar Rapids

Iowa but I went back there on a v is it, see. I stayed back there

for 3 months on a v is it when he was back there, see. Well, when

I come back from up there I went down here. . .I'd le ft Boncarbo

which shut down see. No, he was living in McCook Nebraska when

I le ft here, when I le ft here and went downx to Boncarbo and

Boncarbo shut down. I le ft Boncarbo and I went back to visit

him back in Cedar Rapids see and was back in Cedar Rapids there. .

or back in. . .Back in McCook Nebraska. I'm getting ahead of

my game there, getting a lit t le wind up here. 52:25 I: Here come your groceries. Let me take this off you.

< L: Oh, it's all right, [Grocery delivery] You see how I live.

I: Is n 't that great. [Long pause for the grocery man]

I: How often do you get groceries? 56:03

L: Once a week, once on Friday. We take x out a lis t on Thursday

because she goes gets her hair fixed tomorrow. I get i t once

a week. I spend about, oh, le t's see, about $120 a month for

groceries for myself. What'd you say, Mike, take how much off

of this?

GB: Take a dollar and a half off of there because I got thank you

cards.

L: Take a dollar and a half off of that. There's 21.14 on this one.

58:06 There's your medicine. 130, 9.83, what's this 9.83. [More discussion on the b ill for groceries]

I: Groceries are starting to get expensive, aren't they? Lloyd 05188-2 Page 30 58:11

L: Oh, you a in 't a kidding, boy.

I: Have you noticed it go up lately?

L: You're darn right I have. I used to. . .Used to be about $10

a week. Now it cost me 25 or 30, see. That's what I got. . .

This here. . .See I live on p ills , see. Live on p ills. Oh, I

got to get them.

I That doesn't look like p ills. That looks like back rub.

L Huh?

I Looks like back rub.

L:x Yeah, that's right. I don't know, that's for my hands. You

see this thumb and these two fingers, you see, actually dead.

See the nerve is gone here. See how deteriorated. Right there,

deteriorated. All right, you pay them.. . .my tie clasp. . .okay.

Now I'm square with them. See that, that son-in-law of mine

there, he's retired now. He's foreman down at Portland firm,

about 30 years,

I: He's a miner too, huh?

L: No, he's foreman out at the rock quarry.

I: At the quarry?

L: Yeah, at the quarry. He's foreman out there for 30 years. He

worked down there. And my daughter there she was a technician

over here at the women's pen and she had to quit over there

on account of her back. Lifting too much and pretty near broke

her back. See there used to be. . .Over there at one time before. .

they used to make the convicts work. But the convicts got so

they wouldn't work. Then the officers had to do the work,

lifting and stuff like that and she started to lift and that and Lloyd 05188-2 Page 31

1:00:05 hurt her back. So by God, she had to go to Denver for examina­

tion and that. She went down here in the hospital for a while.

She was under, what do you call it? Having her back treated

with big weights on. . .traction, down here for a long time in

the hospital and sent her up to xxxxxx Denver. She was up there

for a while. The doctor up there hex said no more work little

girl. So now she's on a x state pension. And he draws a pension

too and social security too from Portland. So, I guess they'll

be all right. They're all right now.

I: Sounds like they'll be okay.

L: Well I'm doing all right too myself. I get black lung.

I:x Do you?

L: Oh yeah, black lung and social security both. Yeah, so I do

all right. I get enough to go fishing.

I: Do you make out pretty well on that?

L: Oh, you're darn right I do. You bet I do buddy. I go anywhere

I want to go. If I want to go, I go.

I: What happens with people that don't have pension plans like if

you were to. . .The union would have had a pension plan by now,

right?

L: Well, they go on old age pension. Like my neighbor next door,

she's on old age pension. They take care of them pretty good

too. See,now she. . .That house next door to me, she bought all

the paint with that house and the welfare sent men over here and

they painted that house--all the inside and all on the outside.

But she had to pay for the paint, you see. Even that, and that's

welfare. But I'm not on welfare. I ain't going on welfare. I

x don't have to. I don't like it. See, that's state. I buy all Lloyd 05188-2 Page 32 1:01:50 my medicine, I pay my hospital b ills , everything. Now of course,

I got insurance for the hospital. See that Medicare takes care

of 80% and I got Blue Cross, Blue Shield that takes up the

balance. I had Blue Cross, Blue xxxxx Shield since about 36,

1936, I guess that I've been on Blue Cross, Blue Shield. And

the company when I was working for the company, the company used

xx to pay it , see. And then the company quit paying for it when

they shut down. The company quit it and I took it over, see.

So I took. . .

I: What happens to. . .Do many xx of the supers get any kind of

company pensions or was the fact that you worked with so many

companies has that hurt you.

L: You don't get it no more. They used to. See before this social

security come in, why they used to give the superintendents a

, pension. They'd get a

[END OF TAPE]