$8.95 in the USA

™

A TwoMorrows Publication No. 8, Spring 2015 Madman TM & © 2015 Michael Allred. Flaming Carrot Bob Burden.

0 2

1 82658 97073 4

also: HARVEY KURTZMAN • VERNON GRANT • BATTON LASH • STAN LEE • RUTU MODAN Spring 2015 • Voice of the Comics Medium • Number 8 table of contents

Ye Ed’s Rant: Catching Up on Stuff...... 2

MAD SCIENTIST WOOdy Comics Chatter CBC mascot by J.D. King ©2015 J.D. King. Rutu Modan: Michael Aushenker talks with the Israeli graphic novelist who gets About Our to the characters inside of events in her books, Exit Wounds and The Property...... 3 Cover Incoming: Phew! Some thought Swampmen was worth the wait… thankfully!...... 8 Art by MIKE ALLRED & BOB BURDEN Vernon Grant: Where we discover the art of a neglected graphic novel pioneer...... 12 Color by LAURA ALLRED Stan Lee: CBC covers the Man’s final European comic convention appearance...... 16

The Good Stuff: George Khoury on the seductive art of Ilya Kuvshinov...... 18

Hembeck’s Dateline: Fred looks at the heroes of the Justice Society of America...... 21

Harvey Kurtzman: Bill Schelly is interviewed about his new — and exhaustive! — biography of the creator of MAD (and bona fide comic book genius)...... 22

Batton Lash: Part two of our interview with the creator of Supernatural Law...... 28

THE MAIN EVENTS Art & characters ©2015 M. Allred/B. Burden. Boy, just like so much appearing Michael Allred’s Pop Art Life: Sure, the artist has toiled for decades and has in Comic Book Creator these days, this issue is a long time rightfully earned his status as comic book great, but what charges his engine in coming! But while the cover more than fame and glory? A passion for pop culture and love of family...... 44 was completed by the wonky hero team of Michael D. Allred and Bob Burden more than a The Zen of Bob Burden: Flaming Carrot has the distinction of being one of decade back, take solace in the oddest oddballs in comics and his creator is a character unto himself, knowing the interviews herein this double-feature issue are as learned in this smart, funny, fast-moving and comprehensive interview...... 62 brand-spankin’-new! Our profound thanks to Mike & B.B. BACK MATTER for their patience and support — and to Laura Allred for her great Creator’s Creators: Kendall Whitehouse...... 79 coloring job, as well! Cowabun- ga, surfer dudes!— Ye Ed. Coming Attractions: Joe Staton...... 79 If you’re viewing a Digital Edition of this publication, PLEASE READ THIS: A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: The Carrot gets wild with Pussy Riot!...... 80 This is copyrighted material, NOT intended for downloading anywhere except our website or Apps. If you downloaded it from Right: The Flaming Carrot and background items are from an image provided by Bob Burden and the Madman another website or torrent, go ahead and read it, and if you decide to keep it, DO figure is from Michael Allred’s cover for The Superman/Madman Hullabaloo! #1 [June 1997]. THE RIGHT THING and buy a legal down- load, or a printed copy. Otherwise, DELETE IT FROM YOUR DEVICE and DO NOT SHARE IT WITH FRIENDS OR POST IT ANYWHERE. If you enjoy our publications Comic Book Artist Vol. 1 & 2 are now available enough to download them, please pay for them so we can keep producing ones like as digital downloads from twomorrows.com! this. Our digital editions should ONLY be downloaded within our Apps and at www.twomorrows.com Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: [email protected] subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $40 US, $54 Canada, $60 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their Comic Book Creator creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2015 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book is a proud joint production of Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING. Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows an icon’s final jaunt The Man’s Last Pond Hop Marvel maestro Stan Lee makes his final European comic convention appearance

by Robert Menzies would have taxed a man a quarter of Stan’s 91 years. Stan had flown into the U.K. on the Thursday morning, Below: Stan Lee having a ball Last summer, after decades of globe-trotting as Marvel’s July 10, so that before the con started he could film his at the London Film and Comic greatest promoter, the man they call The Man retired his cameo for Avengers: Age of Ultron, due to be released this Con last July, his professed final passport. Sunday, July 13, 2014, was the final day of the last month. (As an aside, during the Saturday “Meet and Greet,” European con. Photo by Chris European convention that Stan Lee will ever attend and Stan’s unreliable memory struck again. He claimed to have Gaskin. Next page bottom: Comic Book Creator was there to record the historic no idea who Ultron was, and mistakenly stated that the char- Stan Lee in 1965, from day. acter came after he had ended his day-to-day involvement at the inside front cover The London Film and Comic Con 2014 (LFCC), Marvel’s New York offices. Ultron, of course, made his first of Fantasy flagship event for serial con organizers Show- named appearance in The Avengers #55 [Aug. 1968], in a tale Masterpieces #1 masters, was the scene for Stan’s last hurrah. [Feb. ’66]. that Stan edited and written by Roy Thomas.) The convention location was the imposing Earls Interestingly, Joan Lee, Stan’s wife, was born in New- Court Convention Centre and alongside Stan castle, in the north of England, and still has relatives in the would appear over 100 film and media guests, Whitley Bay area. If this was to be Stan’s last trip, it would 60 writers, and 100 comic creators, as well as probably be hers as well. Sadly, Joan’s health was not good a vast marketplace of sellers. It was going to be enough for her to travel. a summary and a celebration of popular culture Sunday, the last day of Stan’s last European convention, in 2014, headlined by perhaps the greatest pop started for Stan with a signing session. Fans had spent culture figure alive. months agonizing over what to have signed; from listening Predictably, ticket demand was extraordi- to them, it was hard to escape the conclusion that many had narily high, as was media interest, although it given less thought to naming their children. soon became apparent that no one had antici- Drained by the hectic two days he’d just had, Stan ar- pated just how high. One film crew had flown rived later than planned. Regardless, it always appears as if in from football-obsessed Brazil, ignoring Stan has been covered with protective plastic sheeting until the World Cup Final that had its showpiece revealed to the public as he was immaculately groomed, final in Rio de Janeiro on Stan’s with freshly pressed white shirt and khaki colored smart final day. The crowds outside trousers. It was only later that I noticed he was wearing odd snaked around the halls socks: one white, one cream-colored. and beyond. There If you saw Stan over the weekend, you also saw Max were enough Anderson, as the Pow! (Purveyors of Wonder) Entertainment cosplayers to event coordinator is never far from Stan’s side. One sur- assemble every prising fact connecting the men, and one that reveals they incarnation of are close friends as well as business partners, is that Stan the Avengers taught Max to drive. Stan is known to drive with — how can and enough I phrase this delicately? — undue haste and seems a rather agents of poor, even reckless, choice of instructor. Privately on Sunday S.H.I.E.L.D. night he summed up one of his core driving principles in this to crew a he- way: “If somebody overtakes me, I’ve failed!” licarrier, with Max’s uniform on Sunday was a salmon-colored Marvel a re-enactment print T-shirt, jeans and loud lime green trainers that play of Secret Wars against his understated personality. Although quite laconic, thrown in to pass he’s easy-going, friendly and helpful. Around Stan he’s a the time while restless presence, pacing back and forth, shifting his weight waiting in line. from foot to foot, tapping his fingers on the wall behind him Stan’s itiner- and directing Stan’s entourage. Throughout the day, and ary included a press always unprompted, he’d approach Stan with a cup of water conference on the Friday, or a Smoothie. photo shoots with fans At one point during the Sunday signing, Stan reached on all three days, signing down for something on the floor, causing his chair to tilt back sessions (with fans on slightly. With a speed reminiscent of Spider-Man whisking a Friday, Saturday and pedestrian out of the way of a speeding bus, Max dived for- Sunday and private ward. Stan, however, righted the chair himself and continued sessions with signature signing autographs, oblivious to what had happened behind authenticators CGC him. Photograph ©2015 Chris Gaskin. on Thursday and In an effort to satisfy the massive demand, Stan only Sunday), a Saturday signs autographs and will not add testimonials – not even Meet and Greet and a “To Robert”, darn it. He will sign anything in front of him, a Sunday panel. It and the variety of objects is astonishing: comicbooks, was a merciless — prints, posters, toys, bobbleheads (of Stan!), scraps of and frankly unrealistic — schedule paper, canvasses, replica weapons and costumes, musical and, as his assistant Mike said, instruments, statues, books, photographs, even body parts.

16 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR the good stuff Ilya Kuvshinov The seductive, alluring artwork of an emerging comics master

by George khoury CBC Contributing Editor next in the story — so the humor in it was pretty crazy.” Regarding his art training, “Academically, I started Popular culture is the common language that we all share. learning at age 11 at Moscow Art Lyceum,” he explains. When it hits all the right notes, it has the power to convey “After it, I attended an animation college and an architec- ideas that bring us all together from anywhere ture academy, but everything I know about digital around the globe. No matter who we are, what art started only three years ago when I began we have, or where we came from, it be- to work as a concept artist at game longs to all of us. And via the savvy use of development. My visual storytelling pop culture in his illustrations, skills started to develop only two years Ilya Kuvshinov has found a path to ago when I started directing motion our hearts as art lovers. comics.” “Pop culture has an enormous The tools of the trade are a Cintiq influence on young minds now, and Companion for his digital work and a I am not an exception,” says the mechanical pencil for sketching. In 24-year-old Russian artist. “I think rare instances, he’ll also use acrylic on the future of a whole new genera- canvas. As a real renaissance man, his tion of people depends on it, so you medium of choice is always the one that can’t underestimate it.” best helps him tell a story. The captivating art of Kuvshinov “Right now I’m engages the attention of everyone making my one- who encounters it. His choice of shot comic, subjects display a touch of class and maturity and, to be beyond the years of its creator. And, thanks to honest,” he social media and his openness, this up-and-coming confesses, illustrator has amassed a massive audience who follow “I really love his creative progress and insightful tutorials. Still growing the methods as an artist, every bit of digital feedback and criticism that of storytelling comes his way only motives him to carry on with his in traditional personal ambitions. printed “The importance of social media is huge,” says Kuvshin- comics — ov. “Sometimes it’s the only thing that keeps me going.” Among his earliest influences are master artists Al- phonse and Mikhail Vrubel, but his real passion ignited with his Japanese art heroes, particularly the works of Murata Renji, Katsuhiro Otomo, Satoshi Kon, and Hayao Miyazaki. American comics, too, have made an indelible impression. “It’s not hard to find a young man who isn’t influenced by Spider-Man, Batman, or the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I love Jim Lee’s work. I’m a big fan of J. Scott Campbell, Adam Warren, Kim Jung Gi, Bryan Lee O’Malley, Sean Galloway, and many others. But the Japanese stuff is the Above: Caption bigger influence.” Comics are nothing new to this wunderkind. “We did comics every day!” enthuses Kuvshinov. “When our classes were dull, my friends and I drew comics together — you’d draw a panel of comic, and then hand it off to a friend and he’d draw another and just make sure that the teacher All TM & © 2015 the respective copyright holders. wouldn’t see it! It was fun because no one knew what was going to happen Upper left: Detail of a lovely Audrey Hepburn portrait. Left: Evocative piece. Inset above: The young Russian artist himself. Right: Judge Anderson: Psi-Division #2 cover detail. Next page: Top left is Silent Hill: Downpour #3 variant cover. Top right is his piece “Trumpet Tower. Bottom is Rachel from the movie Blade Runner. All art by Illya Kuvshinov.

18 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR Hey, look: It’s Harvey! The Life of a MAD Man Bill Schelly talks about his forthcoming exhaustive biography of Harvey Kurtzman

Interview conducted by JON B. COOKE CBC Editor way they were. I really believe MAD had a lot to do with the emergence of the counter-culture in the 1960s. [Bill Schelly, an early and active member of comic book CBC: Was Harvey Kurtzman a genius? fandom back in the 1960s, has written innumerable Bill: Kurtzman was an innovator. There had never been books on those bygone days of fanzines and Alley a comic book like MAD when he invented it in 1952, or a Awards, and has earned considerable cred as an magazine like MAD when he changed its format in 1955. associate editor of the long-running magazine Alter There had never been a serious-minded, artfully produced Ego. Importantly, the historian is producing out- war comic book like Two-Fisted Tales when he invented it in standing biographies on comics legends, including 1950. And later, there had never been a fully-painted comic Otto Binder, Joe Kubert, and now a massive tome to strip like Little Annie Fanny when he and Willy Elder created be published by Fantagraphics this spring on the life it for Playboy in 1962. In my book, I quote philosopher Arthur of inarguably one of the most important comic book Schopenhauer who said, “Talent hits a target that no one creators of all, Harvey Kurtzman. The following took else can hit. Genius hits a target no one else can see.” Kurtz- place this past winter via e-mail. — Ye Ed.] man was a genius. Full stop. CBC: Give us the background of Kurtzman’s early life, his Comic Book Creator: What does MAD and specif- family and so on, please. ically the MAD comics run mean to you, and why are they Bill: Kurtzman’s parents were both immigrants from significant? Odessa, an important port city in Ukraine. Life wasn’t great Bill Schelly: First, Harvey for Jews in Odessa in 1920, so David and Edith were among Kurtzman’s work as the creator, the masses of Jewish people who came to America at this editor, artist, designer, and writer time. They had two children. Zachary was born in April 1923, of MAD, both as a comic book and Harvey in October 1924. They lived in a tenement apartment then as a magazine, set the pattern in Brooklyn. Harvey’s father died when he was four. Edith for one of the greatest publishing married Abraham Perkes about a year later. Harvey always success stories of the century. considered Abe his father. Second, during the early 1950s, a That marriage occurred the same year as the Wall Street time of great social conformity in crash of 1929, when the country was plunged into what America, MAD satirized popular we now call the Great Depression, when a third of all adult culture icons like Superman, then males in the U.S. were unemployed. Fortunately, Abe was a the consumerist lifestyle, and then even Senator Joseph McCarthy’s anti-communist witch hunts, which were happening at that time. MAD satirized attempts of do-gooders like Dr. Fredric Wertham who wanted to sanitize, if not destroy, comic books. Satire involves criticism, which is why it can be so controversial, yet Kurtzman had the ability to satirize and, at the same time, be very, very funny. In my opinion, the MAD TM & © Entertaining Comics, Inc. Two-Fisted Tales William M. Gaines, Agent, Inc. brilliance of his writing, and the finished art by Wally Wood, Jack Davis and Willy Elder, has never been matched in any oth- er humor comics and magazines… except, maybe, Kurtzman’s Humbug. MAD is significant be- cause it brought iconoclastic satire to every city, town and hamlet in the country, encouraging readers — most of them young — to question the status quo, and not just accept things the

22 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR brass engraver by trade, and was able to earn a living through those diffi- cult years. By 1935, they were doing well enough that the Perkes-Kurtzman family could afford to move to the Bronx, which was a step up from the Brooklyn ghetto. Harvey had shown an aptitude for artwork and cartooning early on. Therefore, he was chosen to attend the High School of Music and Art, a special school for talented youths. That’s where he met many of his future collaborators, such as Willy Elder, Al Jaffee, John Severin, Al Feldstein, and a number of others. How’s that for a quick capsule summary? CBC: Not too shabby. To what do you ascertain were the earliest influences on Harvey? Bill: His mother, Edith, was the most important single influ- ence in his early life. He once described her as a “nightmare of a nudge,” but a nudge is someone who doesn’t accept things as they are. Both she and Harvey’s stepfather Abra- ham were Communists, and read the Daily Worker. Edith used to say reading the Worker taught her how to “read between the lines” of the mainstream press. She inculcated in Harvey the penchant for reading between the lines. That is, looking for the reality behind the official version of events. Well, do you consider work-for-hire Harvey rejected Communism, but picked up Edith’s ques- fair? Yes, Gaines provided the financial capital to tioning attitude, which was, after all, the essence of what publish MAD, but Kurtzman poured every bit of his creative Top: Harvey Kurtzman’s elabo- became MAD. Also, his mother recognized and encouraged capital into the publication. When sales of MAD took off, rate and ornate MAD logo from his talent, and arranged for him to take weekend courses at Kurtzman’s salary went up a bit, but nothing in comparison to the first issues of the magazine the Pratt Institute and the Brooklyn Museum when he was the huge profits the comic book and magazine were making version. Inset left: Harvey eight and nine years old. for Gaines. Yes, Kurtzman accepted the work-for-hire system Kurtzman as lensed by E.B. CBC: What surprises did you find in his overall life? when he first got into comics, and when he started at E.C. Boatner, likely in the mid- to late Bill: There were so many. One was an FBI investigation of But Kurtzman was a freelance editor, writer and artist. As ’70s. Above: MAD #20, perhaps Kurtzman’s war comic books in 1952, to find out if EC and such, his financial arrangements were subject to renegoti- the most subversive cover of Kurtzman could be prosecuted for sedition under the Alien ation at any time, either by Gaines or by Kurtzman. In fact, all, allowing readers to sneak it Registration Act. That law, commonly known as the Smith Gaines actually agreed to give him 25% of the profits in the into classrooms. Below: First ap- Act, made it a federal crime to advocate or teach the desir- MAD paperbacks, and 10% of the profits in MAD magazine. pearance of Alfred E. Neuman, ability of overthrowing the U.S. government, or to be a mem- But Kurtzman never saw any of that money, because, not at least on a MAD back cover! ber of any organization that did the same. J. Edgar Hoover long after, in April 1956, he wanted to know if Kurtzman’s comics were detrimental to suddenly demanded 51% of the morale of combat soldiers, or urged insubordination or MAD. At that point, Gaines refusal of duty of Army or Navy servicemen. Obviously, since fired him. E.C. continued to publish war comics for another couple of As for the reasons why years, the FBI and the US Department of Justice decided Kurtzman made such an that they weren’t in violation of the law, but it’s a fascinating apparently outrageous shadow event in Kurtzman’s career. And it wasn’t the last demand, there’s disagree- time Kurtzman’s work came to the attention of Hoover. ment. He said he asked for Another surprise was how hard Kurtzman worked it so that he would have to break into television in 1959. He created proposals for the editorial power to pay original TV programs, and sought a position on the writing more for freelance writers, staff of established shows such as The Steve Allen Show. He because there was no way got very close to making it, but always something got in the he could write the whole way. He was actually hired as a writer for a major television magazine. Gaines would show, but then the star had a heart attack just as Kurtzman only pay $25 a page, which was reporting for work on his first day, and all bets were off. was what Kurtzman called Among Kurtzman’s papers, I found scripts, letters, pitches, “a schlock rate.” But was and all kinds of interesting material about his attempts to get Kurtzman simply after TV work. He spent quite a bit of his creative energy that year editorial control, or was he on such work, which ultimately didn’t pay off — but some after ownership of MAD? of his ideas were excellent. He was able to interest some Or was he trying to get people in his work, but never could “close the deal.” fired, to salve his con- CBC: How do you assess the relationship between Harvey science because he had and Bill Gaines? Was Harvey treated fairly? Did Gaines make already decided to leave a fair deal and was Harvey’s insistence on 51% ownership of MAD to work for Hugh MAD unrealistic? Hefner? These are some of Bill: Those are questions that have complex answers. It the things I sort through in took me the better part of two chapters in the book to fully the book. When I was in- lay out all the factors involved. Was Harvey treated fairly? terviewing Hugh Hefner, he MAD TM & © Entertaining Comics, Inc.

Comic Book Creator • Spring 2015 • #8 23 go west, young man Of Torts and Terrors The conclusion of the CBC interview with the cartoonist creator of Supernatural Law

Conducted by JON B. COOKE CBC Editor the story? So I was interested in comics, but my gut feeling was, “I’m never gonna enter this field.” But I just loved [Last ish, cartoonist Batton Lash, creator of Supernatural The Spirit and the different situations that Eisner was able Law, discussed his early years as Ditko aficionado and to put this character in. It was just incredible how flexible attendance with John Holstrom at the School of the premise was that he could do any type of story with it. Visual Arts, in New York City, where they were Anyway, that’s the summer of ’74. students of comic book giants Harvey Kurtzman Also, one more footnote about Eisner: he liked John and Will Eisner. Though the legends took young Holstrom and me. I can’t remember the circumstances, but in Lash under their wing, it was suggested to the July or August, we went to his studio on Park Avenue South neophyte artist that maybe the field of comics to help clean up. I think he wanted some of the students just wasn’t the right choice, leaving our subject to to help him move stuff around. And while there, he gave me a ponder his future. The following interview was copy of Graphic Story Magazine, which had this cover story conducted in mid-January and transcribed by and interview with an artist I had never heard of, Howard Steven “Flash” Thompson (who actually is Nostrand. I was fascinated with it! My first thought was this mentioned herein as an able assist in a was an elaborate hoax, that someone created this golden time of need for Batton!) — Y.E.] age artist and this is what his stories would have looked like. But after I read that interview, I saw that Nostrand was, Comic Book Creator: Last we indeed, the real deal. His impression of Eisner and Kurtzman, left it, Batton, you’re getting out of and how he appropriated the best qualities of their work Above: Batton Lash’s the SVA, it’s the mid-’70s, and without swiping was fascinating to me. And also, another signature characters, what are you gonna do? comics history footnote, Eisner, just in passing, said, “Oh, I Wolff & Byrd. Batton Lash: I was at a turning just got this very ambitious project. An old-time artist named Right: Lash doing the networking thang at point. That summer of 1974 was Jack Katz who I don’t remember meeting, but he sent me a comic con in a pic an interesting one. I decided that I this… This is the first book in his series of graphic novels he by his wife, Jackie wasn’t going to be a cartoonist, that I wants to do.” It was The First Kingdom. “He wants a quote Estrada. probably wasn‘t cut out for it, but I still from me.” That was the first time I’d ever heard of Jack Katz really liked comics and liked the form. I and his ambitious goal to publish this wide-ranging, rambling was still in the middle of my tenure at SVA, graphic novel. So that was interesting. so I was looking more towards video, film, I’d see Will in SVA, of course. I was always there every and writing to express my creative urges. Inter- so often to say hello, but I had moved on to cartooning and estingly, that summer, I just weaned myself comics and started going into more playwriting and video off of comics. Usually every Tuesday I productions. For a term project, I did the musical version of would go down to the newsstand and Night of the Living Dead. [Jon laughs] That was fun to do see what came out, but one Tuesday and being the director. I just thought that was fun. When I woke up and there was no urge. I I say musical version, it was sort of the MAD magazine just quit was cold turkey. Broke the version where it would take pop songs or classical songs comic mold. I just had no interest in and just fill in new lyrics to it. You know, “As sung to the tune it anymore. The Marvel and DC stuff of Yankee Doodle.” Something like that. It was fun to just at the time just wasn’t too interest- drag people out of the student lounge and just put them in ing to me. I don’t know if it was the zombie makeup. Someday I have to convert that videotape to product DVD because I haven’t seen it in years. Maybe I’ll put it up on itself or YouTube one of these days. I finally CBC: Did you graduate SVA? just Batton: Yes. I graduated in 1977. That was another turning outgrew it, point. What to do? Because I was interested in playwriting but I turned and theater. I was particularly taken with Charles Ludlam my back on it. and Ridiculous Theater, down in Greenwich Village. I liked Wolff & Byrd TM © Batton Lash. Photo ©2015 Jackie Estrada. So that’s where that whole idea that you can rent out a whole space and my knowledge of have your stock company and every couple of months pre- Marvel and DC comics miere a play that you wrote and you could perform in. You’ve ends: 1974. When people ask gotta remember I was very young and very naive then, and I me, “What do you think of Dead- thought that was just something I would like to do. pool?” I don’t know what they’re talking CBC: Now, did you attend a lot of theater? about! However, the only comic I would Batton: Yes. Off-Broadway and Broadway. At the time, seek out was The Spirit, which Warren New York was in a very bad fiscal state. Anyway, the plays was reprinting. That summer, without the could get you into the theater, they would do it. So ticket pressure and stress of Eisner’s class every prices weren’t as expensive as you might think. There was week, I was able to just sit down and look great bargains to be had on the Great White Way. I discov- at The Spirit. What made it work? What ered George S. Kaufman and Moss Hart, and there were a lot was the storytelling? How did he approach of revivals of those plays. Room Service… I liked the older

28 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR plays the best! They were very funny, very antic. The actors like it out there so maybe I can that were performing them really nailed it, I thought. So I get a few gigs just drawing. At went to a lot of stuff like that. The trouble with theater is the the time — this would be the late same trouble with film: there’s just too many people involved. ’70s — there was still a market And that was always difficult, getting all the people on the for local weeklies. Even though same page — especially getting everyone on the same people used clip art, a lot of non-paying page as well. places wanted commissioned art, CBC: What happened with your theatrical ambitions? whether they were drawings for Batton: Well, I tried writing a couple of screenplays. I went advertisements or little editorial out to California. I had relatives and had friends who moved spots. So I thought I could pick up out there. This would be the road that would become very fa- some money doing that. I hauled miliar with me. I was very excited that there was actual inter- my portfolio around to different est in this screenplay I wrote. Of course, I get out there and it places. At night, I’d go home and was just lots and lots of talk and lots of meetings. I must have either work on a new screenplay been 21 years old. What did I know? I just thought this was or work on a play, but my dreams protocol. Instead it’s just mammoth wasting of time. I mean, of theater were fading because it everyone’s interested and everyone can take a meeting, but was increasingly difficult to crack that doesn’t mean they had any juice to get anything made. that market. CBC: What was the screenplay? CBC: Did you return to buying Batton: I tried to get this off the ground and had some comics at all? You had caught interest. It was called Bartholdi’s Masterpiece and it was wind of The First Kingdom. Wen- about a group of thieves that stole the Statue of Liberty and dy and Richard Pini were coming hid it in Hoboken! out with Elf Quest, Cerebus was CBC: [Laughs] Okay, Batton: How’d they do that? coming out. There was a real Batton: Piecemeal, of course! I’ve got 10 drafts if you ever beginning of possibilities! wanna read it! Batton: I didn’t learn of any of CBC: A caper comedy? that stuff ’til the early ’80s. There Batton: Oh, it was definitely a caper comedy. In fact, it was were still enough head shops an over-the-top caper. One of my favorite authors was Don- around that sold undergrounds, but I really wasn’t interested. Above: Once titled Wolff & Byrd: ald Westlake and I liked The Hot Rock, a caper movie and I had a friend who worked in a second-hand bookstore in Counselors of the Macabre I just thought I wanted to take the caper one step beyond. Brooklyn that was called My Friend’s Comics. That bookstore Law, Batton Lash renamed the Go very brazen and take the Statue of Liberty! Of course, I is the subject to an article all to itself. I found out how many series Supernatural Law at the would never want to do something like that now because comics people got their back issue there when they were behest of Hollywood producers just the symbolism of destroying the Statue of Liberty is just fans! Everyone from Howard Chaykin to Jimmy Palmiotti pitching a cinematic adaptation, something I would never want to perpetuate. to Paul Levitz. When I was a rabid fan, I used to go there. which alas hasn’t yet come to It was never optioned for money. It was always, you They would have a box and you could get back issues and be. Below: Nifty Radioactive know, “I’ll show it around.” At the time, I had no idea what they were incredibly cheap. The current stuff was incredibly Man and Bartman image shared options were. It was very low rent producers that — I’m cheap, also. But I had a friend who, just by coincidence, by Bill Morrison, which actually taking their word for it — showed it around. I’d been to some began working there, and when The Spirit would predates Batton’s scripting on offices, I remember some poolside meetings. I can’t say it’s a come in she’d pick it up for me. They got in the character. waste of time because everything is an education, but it pre- John Benson’s Panels. She gave me a pared me for what was gonna come later when Hollywood copy and said, “I thought you’d be was interested in Supernatural Law. interested.” Well, I thought it CBC: How long did you stay out in California? was just terrific because it Batton: I had several trips out there. Like I said, I had was dealing with comics relatives and I had a friend out there who I stayed with so theory which reminded it was like a few weeks at a time. I think the longest I was me of Howard Nos- out there was six weeks. But eventually, you’ve gotta come trand’s interview and, back to Brooklyn! Gotta pay the rent! What am I gonna do? before that, Gil Kane’s I can’t wait for these schnooks to make a motion picture Alter Ego interview. It out of my screenplay — a screenplay by someone who had was just fascinating absolutely no credits to his name. So I had to do something. and I said, you know, I put together a portfolio. I should add even though I thought comics are just such a cartooning wasn’t for me, when I would do my videos in SVA, fantastic medium and

Supernatural Law TM & © Batton Lash. I would draw the storyboards and the costume designs and you can do anything in what the characters should look like. A fellow student who comics. And I thought became a very close friend — I’m still friends with him — there’s got to be an Russell Calabrese, was in one of my videos. He looked at outlet somewhere for my sketches and said, “Are you doing comic books?” I said, this, “I still like com- “Naw. No, no.” He goes, “Why not? This stuff’s terrific!” I ics and I’m drawing was shocked! For two years, no one ever said my work was anyway. Maybe I any good at all and I go, “Really?” He says, “Yeah! Why are should just find different you doing this? You should be drawing comics!” So that was markets. Why do I have to go quite encouraging and all through the years, Russell’s always through Marvel and DC?” At been a very big supporter. I was always indebted to him for the time, if you weren’t doing that encouragement! It really gave me that shot in the arm Marvel or DC, the best you that when I came back to Brooklyn, put together a portfolio, could do after that was and thought, “Well, if Russell likes it, someone else has to Gold Key or Charlton or stuff Radioactive Man & Bartman TM © Bongo Entertainment.

Comic Book Creator • Spring 2015 • #8 29 Michael Dalton Allred was born into pop culture. Nursed on cartoons and comic books, weaned on rock ’n’ roll and science-fiction movies, he has grown to become one of the true comic book greats. His effervescent style, emitting a charming, earnest joie de vivre, is at once instantly recognizable as his own and yet reminis- cent of the giants who came before him. Simply put, Allred’s artwork is friendly and warm, whether X-Statix TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. iZombie Monkey Brain Michael Allred. Batman DC Comics. depicting the antics of his Madman or the living dead terrors of iZombie. And the creator himself, loving husband to wife Laura (also his colorist of choice!) and dedicated family man, exudes an authentic friendly and warm nature (never mind generosity!) befitting the artist. The following interview with Michael was conducted by telephone over two sessions this past winter. — Jon B. Cooke

Comic Book Creator: Where do you come humor. You’d have these Sergio Aragonés drawings running from, Michael? down the sides of the magazine. My favorites were the mov- Michael Allred: I was born in Roseburg, ie satires. I remember having the Planet of the Apes issue Oregon. It’s about an hour south of Eugene, where which had Alfred E. Neuman on the cover looking ape-ish. we live now. Laura’s from Orange, California. [Jon laughs] I still have the MAD magazine with the Batman CBC: I read some interviews and was surprised to TV show satire inside. Also, it was the first time I ever heard read perhaps that you were a rebellious kid? of Clockwork Orange [laughter]. When I was a little kid, Michael: Not a rebellious child; a rebellious I’m reading about Clockwork Orange and was fascinated adolescent. with this movie. And I was probably 20 the first time I saw CBC: How was your childhood, then? A Clockwork Orange! But for years Michael: My childhood was about I had always been fascinated as perfect and ideal as you can imagine. with it! The poster was just Very Leave It to Beaver-ish. My older brother, Lee, was the pretty iconic and strange Wally to my Beav. [laughs] Then, when I was about four, my and mysterious. I was just younger brother, Curtis, was born. I was about 11 when my very curious about it and parents split up and then shortly after my parents remarry- so when I saw it… It ing, puberty struck, and I turned into a monster. remains one of the most CBC: [Laughs] Did comics come into play early on in your powerful viewing expe- childhood? riences of my life but Michael: Always! They were always there. My older my first introduction brother had the greatest taste. Probably the single most to it was in Mad important thing in my life as far as my interests and what magazine. spurred any talent (or anything positive artistically) occurred because of my older brother’s taste in comics and what always surrounded me my entire childhood. So all the best stuff was always there and my parents were really great about keeping us supplied with pencils, paper, and paints, so we were always encouraged to be artistic. CBC: Were you exposed to MAD magazine and the humor stuff coming out as well? Michael: Absolutely! Yes, it was always there. I have countless memories of going on trips to Cabot Creek, which was our swimming hole, where you could… You know, all these rocks and waterfalls where you could actually sit un- der the waterfall and watch it flow over you because of the air pockets, and jump off cliffs into the water. It was about

a 30–40 minute drive so we would always be given stuff to TM & © notice read and MAD magazine, for some reason, seemed to be one of the more popular things that we would have on these little driving trips. You’d get these little bursts of

44 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR Conducted by Jon B. Cooke • Transcribed by Steven Thompson • Photography by Kendall Whitehouse CBC: I guess it’s important to point out younger people chained into a pool — this dark dungeon-like pool with a that it was very hard to get into an R-rated movie then and gigantic clam in it — and Robin was starting to get eaten. we didn’t have video at the time. The best exposure that At the end of the episode, you just saw the horror of his we could get to forbidden movies was through the satire feet dangling out of the mouth of the clam. It was years of MAD because they would satirize R movies quite often. I and years and years before I ever saw the conclusion of think Clockwork Orange was actually X-rated for a while. So that. [laughter] He was fine, but I can just imagine the you must have been quite young. You were born in ’62. Do trauma of my older brother because every week in its you remember the first run of the Batman TV show? initial run, he was conscious and mature enough to be Michael: I have very hazy memories of its original run. incredibly frustrated by not seeing the conclusions I’m not even sure. My older brother, Lee, tells me that we’d because my parents wanted to see something else. watch the first episode of the week… I’m sure most people CBC: A lot of your work is joyful. It’s antic. I know it aired twice a week. You’d get the first installment don’t know why I’m asking this question but and there’d be a cliffhanger and then you’d see the conclu- maybe it could be so because reruns were sion of that particular story on the second show. Apparently really big when we were kids: Were the Mon- our parents watched something on the second night… kees an influence on you at all? That crazy, CBC: [Laughs] Oh, no! moptop kind of Beatles joy? Michael: … So we would always see Batman and Robin Michael: Again, you’re hitting on the most get into trouble and never see how they got out of it. That important things that I was exposed to in my was a more frustrating experience life — and the most lasting! The British Invasion for my brother. I don’t remem- was huge for me. We had an older cousin, Robin, ber that so much. Me being who came to live with us for a while and, again fortunately younger, I remember the for me, she had… Just like Lee had this amazing taste in satisfaction of seeing comic books, Robin had the greatest taste in music. That it in the reruns where was just really huge to me. The Beatles remain the most im-

Madman, It Girl TM & © Michael Allred. Wonder Woman TM & © DC Comics. All others Marvel Characters, Inc. Woman Madman, It Girl TM & © Michael Allred. Wonder you’d watch it and then portant musical influence for me and everything I’m passion- immediately see the ate about musically branches off from them. And again it’s conclusion. Although mostly British. From the Beatles, you’d have the Who, Rolling there was one Stones, the Kinks, and then the next groups to come in were particular episode Led Zeppelin or the glam rock with David Bowie and Mott where they got the Hoople, Roxy Music. But as far as what we would get on a daily basis musically, it would be the Monkees! And they remain a huge favorite for me. I’m ready to get into it as far as how important they were musically, the quality of their music. I don’t think they get the credit they deserve as far as just how really good their stuff was. [laughs] Also my childhood was The Partridge Family and I could also argue how important their music was and culturally, their impact, how im- portant it was. To a lesser degree than the Monkees as far as being songwriters and performers — especially performers since David Cassidy was really the only one who performed at all as far as the Partridge Family goes, but the Monkees were incredibly talented musicians and writers. You could go through their catalog and see some of the incredibly innovative stuff

TM & © notice that they did and just don’t

Comic Book Creator • Spring 2015 • #8 45 years of 1965 and 1970. Just five years! Look how much they changed from month to month and then, culturally, the youth at the time. It’s just amazing. You listen to a band like Led Zeppelin in 1970 and imagine hearing that kind of music in 1960, for instance. Or 1965. Just how quickly things changed! The giant leaps that were happening. Here we are in 2015. You just go back 10 years to 2005 and not much has changed as far as music or film. There really hasn’t been that much groundbreaking art in the way of what was happening get credit for. between 1965 and 1975. CBC: You named your own Just look how quickly film changed. Like Clockwork Orange publishing company AAA again, using that as an example in film. The idea of that kind Pop. Pop is big for you, yes? of movie being made in 1965 is unthinkable. Michael: Yeah, it’s what CBC: Right. drives my life. Other than Michael: Very strict rating systems had to come into play, friends and family, pop cul- which didn’t exist before. The strongest thing you’re gonna ture is what I get the most joy see in that decade was probably going to be a Hammer from. I like mixing it up. My horror film. Then more graphic violence became introduced entire life I always wanted and nudity and sexual content. So this is the decade that I’m to be a storyteller to some born in and all of this stuff is just happening in the air around degree, either as a comic me. But, at the same time, because of the fact that there book artist or a filmmaker or were only three TV channels in that decade mostly, that I’m a writer or a musician. Be- exposed to. Only one radio station that we have any interest in listening to — you know, the one that’s gonna have your This Page: Music is a very cause of any success I’ve had in comic books, I’ve been able important component in Michael to do all of that. It’s what I’m most curious about. The only top 100 songs which, in that decade, would be primarily Allred’s life, whether as guitarist magazine I subscribe to is Entertainment Weekly. [laughter] rock ’n’ roll. So, again, I have an appreciation for it because for his (shades of the Partridg- I feel sorry for all the generations before us that weren’t the world, through my eyes, came through… and then, of es!) family band, The Gear, or as able to have access to all the creativity that’s available to us. course, cable television was introduced. an influence in his artwork, as I’m very grateful to have lived in the time that I live. And to When I would come home from school, all of a sudden, witnessed by his ambitious Red have lived without certain things growing up where, again, instead of nothing being on TV, everything would be on TV! Rocket 7 mini-series. Above is a band like the Beatles could make the impact that it did So, in one afternoon, I would be exposed to The Twilight the cover of The Monkees [#13, to pretty much the entire world because of the limitations Zone, Star Trek, The Monkees, Lost in Space, Land of the July ’68]. Of the band, Michael of what was available. Nowadays, everything is available Giants, Batman, you know. The Saint — Roger Moore before says, “I don’t think they get the instantly with iPads and… You know, everything is just he was James Bond — The Avengers. So this incredible credit they deserve as far as just coming at you. To have the kind of impact that one musical rush of pop culture was available to me every day after I’d how really good their stuff was.” entity had and the kind of influence that the Beatles had… come home from school and then, on Saturday mornings, Below is a Madman pastiche of you’d get this incredible wealth of beautiful animation with the David Bowie album cover for because they influenced absolutely everything. Everything! Music, movies, fashion! I think the decade between 1965–75 the Looney Tunes, which was a huge impact on me. So I Alladin Sane [1973] for Michael’s really appreciate how just the best stuff was available to Image series, #15 [Apr. 2009]. is probably the most exciting and groundbreaking decade in pop culture in the entire history of mankind. me! And then there’d be this kind of garbage in the periph- During that ten-year span some of the ery. [laughs] But generally, for whatever reason, I was just most exciting things happened and fortunately exposed to just the best of everything! we’re talking about even how it Then, what is it? All of a sudden, in the early ’80s, people The Monkees TM & © Rhino Entertainment Company. Madman TM & ©2015 Michael Allred. influenced behavior, the Civil could have a VCR and own movies! The video store boom Rights movement, and again, kicked in and all of a sudden movies were… You didn’t have you just look at the fashions to wait for them to show up cut on television. Like, Wizard as opposed to the previous of Oz, for instance, is the classic example. Every year, if decade where all men had you weren’t sat down in front of the television to go to this a certain kind of haircut. incredibly magical world, you were gonna miss it! Even stuff Then, after 1965, it was like A Charlie Brown Christmas or Rudolph the Red-Nosed any kind of hairstyle, Reindeer. They were these annual events that there was facial hairstyle, the this incredible appreciation and excitement and anticipation anti-war movement. for. I remember, when Planet of the Apes first showed up on Look at Life magazine television, it was an amazing thing to me, and, because of between 1965 and MAD magazine, I loved Planet of the Apes! The first time I 1975. The photographs saw Planet of the Apes was at a drive-in theater where there are just… the incredible was… Conquest of the Planet of the Apes was the new changes that took place! film so the night before it premiered, the first three Planet of It… It’s mindboggling! Using the Apes movies were at the drive-in — Planet of the Apes, the Beatles as an example Beneath the Planet of the Apes, and Escape From the Planet of cultural change, just look of the Apes. Pow! I got to see all three first films in one at their appearance between the evening and then the next day was Conquest of the Planet of the Apes. So I was just huge into Planet of the Apes. To me, it

46 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR CBC: Can you describe Frank Einstein when you originally when you look at the original design of Madman, he kind of created him? What made him your favorite? looks like a skeleton. I always intended to have the top of Michael: I didn’t realize it at the time but subconsciously his mask open up so his hair could spill out. I always loved it was the first character that I instilled my personality into, the Kid Flash costume. But I thought… you know, I’ve got a all of my insecurities. Like, I’ve never understood what Laura handful of people that like Grafik Muzik and Frank Einstein, sees in me. [Jon laughs] Here she’s this beautiful, perfect, For those dozen people, I’m gonna give them a thrill when sweet woman with this giant heart and I felt like a creature! I reveal that Frank Einstein is the man in the costume! So You know, some Hunchback of Notre Dame or Frankenstein’s I did the full head mask. The stitching in his mouth kind of creature… so with Frank Einstein all scarred up and beat-up suggested teeth and a skull. There’s like a little crack in the and nasty looking, that was me on paper. And there was his forehead. That’s whey he has the black around his eyes. girlfriend, Joe, and, with Frank Einstein, he can’t understand They were like skull eyes. The original costume had stripes why Joe is kind to him and has affection for him. So, with on the side which suggested ribs. He was very skeletal. And Madman putting the costume on, you see those early issues because of my love and affection for Will Eisner, I thought, and it’s like he then has this burst of self-esteem! He’s able “Well, I’m gonna call him ‘The Spook.’” And so we made to imagine himself as a hero and handsome and somebody Spook T-shirts that had glow in the dark ink and man, we special and worthy of Joe’s affection. That was kind of… sold tons of Spook T-shirts! [laughs] So we’re at Wondercon me! With Laura being able to say, “You know what? You and they have this display of The Spook T-shirts and I took have this passion for the comic book art form. I’m going to do what became my first cover, for the first issue of Madman. everything I can to help you where you only have to do this.” I made a faux copy of it, out it over another comic book and Previous & this page: Doubtless I could never understand that! Again, I didn’t realize that at stuck it in a bag with a board behind it so it looked like a pub- what brought Michael to the attention of the vast majority the time but Madman was really a love letter to Laura and to lished comic book. I had like apiece of foam core that was of readers was his delightful this huge appreciation I have to her making these enormous cut out with Frank Einstein’s head on it wearing the T-shirt Madman, a charming and efforts to me so I can do what I was exited about. So you can so if you can imagine! It was like a display on an easel with exquisitely drawn character that imagine how exciting it was to have something so personal this foam core dummy wearing this T-shirt and in front of seems to have a perennial life, become our first major success. that was this bagged in board faux issue of The Spook! through multitudionous series, CBC: Is Joe Laura? [Jon laughs] It was all intentional to show people, “Here’s whether Madman Adventures, Michael: Yes, very much. Laura doesn’t have red hair or what my next book’s going to be! So buy a glow-in-the-dark Madman Comics, Madman, freckles, but when I’m writing Joe, I’m pretty much thinking: T-shirt!” Madman Atomic Comics, What would Laura say? What would Laura do? That sort of Now what was really cool about this was exactly a year Madman Boogaloo, Madman thing. later at the next Wondercon, Tundra had picked it up and King-Size Super Groovy Special, CBC: Was it at Tundra first or was it in Grafik Muzik? made these balsa wood gliders with Madman printed on Madman All-New Giant-Size Michael: Around the time that I came up with Madman — the wing and Madman is, like, strapped to the wing of this Super Ginchy Special, or, most and, again, the idea of the world that Frank Einstein would balsa wood glider and Tundra was giving them away. So this recently, Madman In Your Face exist in was every comic book that I loved as a kid. Anything was one of my favorite comic shows ever. It was so thrilling 3D Special. Certainly, too, an could have happened. It could be a blood-&-guts and mud because you would be in the convention hall and you’d just aspect that makes the series so action sequence or an adventure story or an outer space ad- see balsa wood going through [laughs]. You’d see balsa endearing is Madman’s devotion venture. Because these scientists who pretty much become wood gliders flying overhead everywhere. They were just to his freckled, wholesome the mentors for Frank Einstein, they can pretty much take flying everywhere all the time! So within a year, pow! It hit. girlfriend Joe, who (sans him on any kind of adventure, place him on any kind of land They promoted the heck out of it and it was this unexpected complexion) is based on Mike’s real-life wife of 30-plus years, or situation. So I had laid the groundwork for this all-encom- wonderful hit but it was at Laura. Long live passing comic book world for Frank Einstein to exist in which that Wondercon where we Frank Einstein! then also started or was cemented by my favorite place in had The Spook. the world, which is here in Oregon. I met Greg Baisden So Snap City is very much a mix of Portland, Oregon, and he introduced me to Kevin and Eugene, Oregon, but at the same time I would throw in Eastman, who was just completely behind elements of other great cities. You’d see a little bit of Paris it. They gave me an incredibly generous or New York, like him on the Brooklyn Bridge or something. page rate, and it was from Kevin that I So Snap City became this amalgam or “Everycity,” but very really learned everything that I should much inspired by my affection for Eugene and Portland. So expect as a creator like what my rights when Frank Einstein gave me the vehicle of a super-hero should be, what I should never accept comic by just slapping a costume on him… It was really that from a contract, what I should expect from simple. a contract. Kevin was invaluable and just All of a sudden, I got this world that came together very being incredibly generous with the success he quickly. Around that same time, we were planning on going had with the Turtles and spilling it into this publishing to Wondercon, which was then in Oakland. One thing we had entity where he was giving great chances to newcomers like done to make ends meet… There’s this great company that me and Al Columbia and also some of his favorite artists like would make custom T-shirts for us for not too much money, me and Bernie Wrightson, just saying, “Here’s a company for a very reasonable price. So we would make T-shirts and where I know everybody has this project they’ve always when we went to comic book shows, it was just another wanted to do. Well, you can do it here!” So he would just way to make money because these were really cool T-shirts kind of open his door to these established people with this and we would make way more money selling T-shirts than incredibly generous contract, which, now in retrospect, is we would selling our comics [laughs]. So I made a T-shirt the contract you, as a creator of your own entities, should for Madman. Now, at the time it was called The Spook. And expect! So a lot of creators really learned how to go in to any TM & © Michael Allred.

Comic Book Creator • Spring 2015 • #8 55 kind of business with any publisher and CBC: You think that was fortuitous? Is that a better name? make sure they were gonna be treated Michael: Oh, yeah. And it’s funny because I don’t think fairly. That was huge for me! While anybody’s ever used The Spook, even though there was an this was all happening… Very shortly intention to use the title, I don’t think anybody ever used it. before going to press, Tundra had done CBC: Well, it potentially carries some baggage, right? a trademark search and somebody had Michael: Oh, yeah. A lot of times, when they would hear filed an “Intent to Use” for The Spook. The Spook, there was some concern. You know, a racial Above: A ginchy Madman My favorite book at the time and, in fact, it has been my slur. For me it was, like, let’s use the word the way it was crossover occured when Frank favorite book until recently, Catcher in the Rye, and Holden intended. He’s like a ghostly character. Let’s win it back and Einstein teamed for a three- Caulfield constantly uses “madman” as an expression. Like, let’s erase the negative connotations. It’s kind of hard, too, issue mini-series with the “he ran like a madman,” “he ate it like a madman.” It’s just because, with Madman, “madman” has negative connota- Man of Tomorrow in 1997’s The “madman” this, “madman” that! So when I was told that I tions and when you’re talking about somebody who’s literally Superman/Madman Hullabaloo, couldn’t use The Spook, we then scrambled for another title a madman, it’s like an axe murderer or something and yet published by Dark Horse. for the book and for about a week it was gonna be called The Frank Einstein is, in some ways, the most sane character in Goon. I even did a logo for it and did some mock-ups. Eric the entire series. But it mirrors my concerns of mental stabili- Below: In the ’aughts, Michael Powell knows this, too. In fact, I wrote an introduction to one ty, which were inflicted on me by my father, the shrink, and gave us The Atomics, featuring of his collections and you’ll see Madman with The Goon and my existential terrors. So, it was through Frank Einstein that It Girl, who also you’ll see the Goon logo that I created. But, thankfully, I was I could spill all this and express all this. Even though there’s had her own one-shot. on a plane reading Catcher in the Rye and I was, like, “This all these fun, goofy, colorful adventures taking place, there’s is it! Madman! Madman!” So when we landed, I immediately constant opportunities for introspection. Like, he’ll wonder if called and said, “What about Madman?” And we were able God really exists or where does the universe end or what is a to use it and Frank Einstein as Madman ever since. soul. And this is where I could kind of exorcise demons and polish off my insane edges while on the surface giving somebody a comic book that’s just big fun! So it has all these levels in it, which has always been very satisfying to me. Again, going back to Love and Rockets and learning that there should be no rules. You can tell any kind of story you want and do anything you want. That’s what Madman has always been for me. So I’ve had all these wonderful collaborations that I’ve been able to be a part of but I’ve nev- Superman TM & © DC Comics. All other characters Michael Allred. er felt frustrated because if there’s anything that I don’t feel that I’m able to do elsewhere, I always have Snap City and Madman and Frank Einstein. This is where I can go to do anything I want and tell any kind of story I want or express any idea, thought or feeling. It’s always been this outlet for me. I never felt like there was something left unspoken. CBC: Wasn’t there a time when Madman went over to Kitchen Sink? Michael: Denis stepped up and picked up the loose threads, shep- herded some of the projects that were almost finished. I could have

56 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR Bob Burden, akin to his most beloved creation’s head, is a man on fire. Despite having been off the scoreboards for a few, long years now, he is still writing and creating all sorts of deranged, offbeat and charming artistic oddities, probably even as you read this. And even if you don’t “get it” or quite understand why any sane person would foist such a bizarre and outré character as Flaming Carrot on an unsuspecting public, it’s hard not to admire his American born-and-bred verve, initiative and salesmanship. But, dig, daddy-o: Burden ain’t no huckster square; rather the cool cat is cut from the same cloth as the Beats of another generation, only funnybooks and not poetry are his scene and Bob’s impact on the world of comics has been a crazy wild trip. This interview with the bang-tail gone cat is wide-ranging and involved and was conducted in two sessions, with the transcript copyedited by Mr. Burden. — JBC

Comic Book Creator: Okay, Bob, a few warm up onto each page, and that makes it hard for the artist. You questions first. know you wind up with 18 panels on one page. Bob Burden: Sure. CBC: The writer/artists we talked about before, E. C. Segar, CBC: Beatles or Elvis man? Carl Barks, and Will Eisner, are some of the best in the field. Bob: Sorry, the Doors. Bob: See if I’m going to draw something, spend time on it, I CBC: What would you do if you saw a monster? want it well-written. A bad story becomes an ordeal to draw. Bob: I’d kill it. CBC: You’d rather be writing. CBC: Why have two cell phone numbers? Bob: I do have a special love for comic book art. As an art Bob: It makes me feel more important. form. In my mind, it is not only a legitimate art form — just CBC: Is it true that you used to drive around like oil painting or sculpture — but one of the most inter- with a human skull on the dashboard of your car esting and intriguing art forms there is. I used to deal comic out in San Diego or in L.A.? Was that a rumor? book art. I can sit here and debate, evaluate, and criticize Bob: No rumor. I used to leave a skull on the all the wonderful and fantastic comic book artists that dashboard of my rentals so no one would we’ve been gifted within the last 50, 75 years of comic book break into my car. Like for when I was in history — but, for me, the racecar driver is the writer and the a bad area or something. You know, in mechanic in the pit is the artist. Hollywood late at night. CBC: Yeah, right. That’s not always been so, but people are, CBC: How would a skull keep someone more and more, beginning to see it that way now. out of your car? Bob: The fans all love artists. People always start out with Bob: If you were a criminal, would you break in what they see on the outside, without looking into the es- a car with a skull on the dashboard? Or would you sence of a thing. Like actors were super-stars, but today a lot just go on to another car? of people follow directors or screenwriters. I like to take time CBC: I guess, as Batman said, criminals are a to see the essence — the subtleties. You know, the things superstitious and cowardly lot. you don’t see, but you feel, you hear, you taste. Or things that

Bob: And mostly none too bright. aren’t said, but are in the tone of somebody’s voice. Pandemonium Boulevard TM & ©2015 Bob Burden. CBC: Let’s get down to business: Talk about being While I was in the hospital back ten years ago, I noticed a writer and being an artist. What makes that differ- this thing about the way the medical people thought. You’d ent, Bob, than being just an artist? ask a nurse a question or a doctor or some medical person a Bob: I’d rather write right now. There are so question, they’d give you an answer, right there, right off the many other artists out there that are so much top of their head. Then they’d bunker it in with why it was better than me. But I do enjoy drawing. true and sandbag it in with two or three reasons supporting Now a writer/artist, is often better at their statement or their guess. writing a story, pacing the story. A So then you’d ask the same person the same question writer who doesn’t understand three days later, and they’d come up with a totally different visual storytelling and pacing the answer, just like out of the Magic Eightball… and they’d panels tends to write too much bunker that in, and blah blah blah. See, it’s because they’re

62 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR Conducted by Jon B. Cooke • Transcribed by Steven Thompson trained that way — in school, they’re trained to grab the first of the late ’30s and early ’40s but somehow Flaming Carrot thing that comes into their head, spit it out, and then defend captures the essence of, for lack of a better term, the je ne it before somebody else raises their hand and comes up with sais quoi, the certain something, where it is discovery. It’s an answer. They’re not trained to think. storytelling unfettered. I guess I’m just making an Well, I never followed that particular observation, but that’s a sense that I feel within thought process. It’s a competitive kind of your stories, beyond the actual working thought process. Now me, I like to take within the construct of a comic book. something and roll it around in my Bob: Yes, it was great being there in mind, roll it around like a pebble in the frontier period, the revolution- my mouth, taste it, feel the shape, ary period, before they fenced off the texture. When confronting a the range. As Kafka says, “Every problem or anomaly, I like to line revolution degenerates into some up possibilities or theories — line form of bureaucracy later them up there like pencils of differ- on.” I liked that early ent lengths, put ’em in order and explosive energy basically look at all the different that you had in possibilities. the first stage CBC: Yeah, right. That’s not always of comics. been so, but people are, more and There was a more, beginning to see it that way now. magic in that And this applies to your writing? 1938–’41 period. You Bob: If there’s some kind of engineering problem or a prob- could really see it from the comic lem with a story, you don’t want to just grab the first thing collector’s point of view. The best that pops into your mind; you want to come up with all the golden age comics, for collectors, different possibilities, lay ’em out, and pick out the very best are in 1939, ’40, and ’41. By ’42, it just one. Try each on for size, you know. all of a sudden became lame. And CBC: Comics are really rather idiosyncratic in the way that I was curious about this! Why did they developed. I’ve seen written that you revel in the fact this happen? And you know, I mean, — perhaps. You can tell me if this is true or not: that comics I was around back in the days really came from a trash medium and that they’re perhaps when the people who made it all disposable or what…? Is that so? happen were still alive — Jack Bob: Not a trash medium, but it’s kind of a vulgar medium, Kirby… I would talk to him about and with that comes a certain amount of… how would you the early days of comics, and Gil say? Lack of self-consciousness. The feeling that this comic Kane, and some of these other story really doesn’t matter because it’s “just a comic book,” guys who used to go to conven- that’s what’s best about it. So you can write with a sans sou- tions. From those discussions of ci attitude. So you can go ahead and say whatever you want. the early days, I got the picture If you’re making a movie, you’ve got six months or a year of that before 1942, it was kind of the your life tied up. Then there’s from 40 to 180 other people’s wild, wild West. By ’42, the mothers lives involved, from the key grip to the actor to the lighting were chiming in, and the editors guy. A lot on the line. started saying, “You can’t do this, So you tend be a lot more careful and meticulous, and you can’t do that,” you know, when you do that, you lose the sort of flair and élan that is this whole “Mommy-land” possible with comics. Now that being said, comics have concept. The real early stuff become a more self-conscious medium. Now that people are was great, and it was kind taking themselves more seriously. of bloody, violent. Like some CBC: To me, looking through Flaming Carrot, through of the cable series today. stories that you’ve written and drawn, they’re… they’re Like Rome or Black Sails

Flaming Carrot, Mysterymen TM & ©2015 Bob Burden. not throwbacks necessarily to the very early comic books or Spartacus. The blood’s

Comic Book Creator • Spring 2015 • #8 63 CBC: As a young kid, reading Feiffer’s The Great Comic about print runs and Book Heroes, which included his childhood handmade com- paper quality. They’d ics, was mind-blowing. It was, ‘Wow! I could do this, too!” I say, “You never sell as didn’t just have to be a reader, but also make my own comics. much of a book later Bob: Everybody in early fandom read that Jules Feiffer on as you do with a book! It was in every library and it was just fantastic. It was #1. The # 1 is always a wonderful book. a bestseller.” I said, CBC: So where did the idea come in for you to do your own “No. That’s only true of comic book? a book that’s a failure. Bob: That’s a good question. I was talking about doing it And why should you with Iger in ’75 or ’76. I had a bunch of other stuff going on at publish garbage? the time that were different schemes, and it seems like every Why not just publish week we were up to something else. At one point in time, me something that’s gonna and my roommate had decided to license all the Herschell be good?” Back then Gordon Lewis movies, so we got a bank account and started a book would dip at putting some of our money into it just to get these things and around #5–7. Good buy ’em up because… Well, the funny thing is that neither of or bad. But if it was a us had ever seen those movies at the time, but we just had good book, a hit, then this vision that someday they would be marketable. But they it would start coming were so horrible! You had Blood Feast and 10,000 Maniacs. back up. Then, by #10, We’d heard so many stories about how horrible they were, it would be double over we said, “These things are so bad, they’ve gotta be good!” what #1 was. So we were gonna license them! My friend Bob flew up CBC: Why didn’t you to Chicago to talk to lawyers and the people up there and self-publish in the early years? everything. And this is all before VCRs! You gotta remember, Bob: I did. My roommate. Lamar put out a too, back in those days, all this is before cell phones, VCRs, book called Visions. We had a Neal Adams and just so many things. It was a different world back then! cover. The idea was that a Neal Adams cover How many channels were there on television before cable? was sure to sell X-amount of copies. We had In any major city you had NBC, CBS, and ABC, and only a Jim Steranko in it, and Rudy Nebres on the few UHF stations. back cover. It was sort of a fanzine and sort CBC: Right. So you were entrepreneurial. What’s the of a comic book, so it was able to sell through genesis of Flaming Carrot? Did that fit into an entrepreneurial that Phil Seuling distribution network. You see, scheme, or was that self-expression? Was that an offshoot the distribution network has a lot to do with the of those homemade comics that the Crumb brothers were product, sometimes as much as the artist does. doing? I’m trying to see a connection, a pattern. Music changed when radio was invented. Bob: Well, there were a number of factors involved. I had Certain things were possible once radio was always wanted to do a comic book, but I didn’t think that I invented that would never have been possible could actually do a really good serious comic book, so if you if radio hadn’t come along. did something just goofy like Robert Crumb or Herbie… I CBC: Collateral effects? hoped that readers would be a little more lenient with the Bob: Yes, like with rock ’n’ roll — would quality of my artwork. it have ever even happened if it wasn’t for CBC: [Laughs] You’re a force of personality amphetamines? I mean, there would have been enough that you could say, “Hey, maybe the something musical there in that decade, but I quality reaches a certain level on this...” don’t think it would have been as much fanati- but you could sell it? Are your skills as cism and energy if it wasn’t for all the bennies salesman part of the equation? and uppers and downers that were floating Bob: Well, there’s different times in the around back then. whole history of Flaming Carrot where CBC: Amphetamines among the performers, I had to bring my business sense in you mean? and had to push it. Like, for instance, Bob: Yes. Everyone was on that stuff. Come- early on, when Flaming Carrot was dians, actors, songwriters… Take On the Road. TM & © Bob Burden beginning to launch into the regular It was written in a few days on one big roll of series, I was at odds with the paper and I’ll bet Kerouac didn’t sleep a lot publishers a good bit simply during the writing of it. You look at early televi- because I wanted to do sion, look at those early kinescope things, and things my way, and they watch them talk. If you’ve been around people wanted to do things on speed, you know what you’re looking at. It their way. I argued was commonplace back then. It was a house- with publishers hold thing. It was “Mother’s Little Helper.”

Comic Book Creator • Spring 2015 • #8 69 outs… they’d come on and they’d just do some things. It was just plain weird. He was like a kid in a candystore. Just being creative and having fun, you know? CBC: Do you see a connection between you and that style some- times, pushing the...? Bob: One of my earliest memories is sneaking into my Aunt Mary’s bedroom while she was watching TV, and peeking at the TV, where just something weird seemed to be going on and I wanted to see it. And it was an Ernie Kovacs show they were watching. I was sitting They were prescribing this there watching and this singing Mountie comes for everybody. They didn’t along and he’s rowing in a boat with a girl in it and he’s ser- know how dangerous it was. enading her — and as he does, the camera pulls back and It was like science was on you see this guy watching this on his TV set and he’s just sit- the loose. I remember shoe ting there kind of disgruntled and bored with it. He stands up stores X-raying your foot to and goes over and gets a drill, and he starts drilling into the determine what kind of shoe top of the TV set and the people are screaming and the boat you should have. sinks — and it was just so cool that they broke this fourth or CBC: I can’t say that I truly fifth or sixth wall, whatever it was. It was like a Don Martin understand your humor, but cartoon! [Jon laughs] I just sat there and said, “That’s great! I find it funny and I don’t I want to do that!” When you’re a young teenager or young know if I necessarily need to kid or whatever and you want to do something, you just play understand it. Ernie Kovacs, around with it. You mess around with it. I could have just as for me, is the same way. well picked up a guitar and got together with some buds and Sometimes I don’t know why done something like that. It’s just goofin’ around and having This page: The Mysterymen I laugh, but I do at those stupid monkeys. [laughs] fun. That’s where the magic comes from. That’s why I don’t comic, turned into a 1999 feature Bob: Oh, you mean the monkeys with the derbies on? The really agree with all this modern educational system stuff. film starring Ben Stiller and Nairobi Trio? They were freaky. Scary. I don’t know what Learning how to use your tools and utensils is important, but Bill Macy. Now considered they were all about either. Just kind of disturbing. not everyone is an artist. You can teach how to draw a little, visionary and ahead of its time, CBC: Right, but so much of what Kovacs did was within the and you can teach ’em how to format a script — but as far it has garnered a cult following, medium itself — to really use the tools available to him in as teaching ’em how to do the magic? Either you’re born and the windfall gave Burden those early days of television and use the camera in such a with it, I think, or you discover it and mature into it. Some the freedom to create and write way that it made it funny unto itself. people may just have it, and some people don’t. They used to more madness. Artwork by BB. Bob: Other things he did were not funny, but more of an say that every artist has 500 bad drawings in him, and he just artistic thing. He did some of the most bizarre little black- has to draw and get them out. I disagree. I think some people Myesterymen, The Mysterians TM & © Bob Burden. Mystery Men the respecive copyright holder.

70 #8 • Spring 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR do that that easily. You know, you. By the later ’80s, some really big changes were taking you’d need like $50–100$50–100 place in comic books that perhaps culminated with Image. grand and that won’t go very There was gold in them thar hills, wasn’sn’’tt there? I mean, the far! BatmanBatman movie was coming out, The Dark Knight Returns, CBC: YYouou went to school Watchmen. These things were gaining notice, right? in Athens, Georgia, where Bob:Bob: From the start, I was aiming at reach an audience REM, the B-52s, and a lot of beyondbeyond comic book fans and the direct market with Flaming good bands came from. WasWas Carrotarrott. I knew there was an audience out there for the weird Athens receptive to you as — I just had to find it. The Far Side did. SNL, Monty Python, an artist? KKidsids in the Hall, Second City… Bob: I had my own little Flaming Carrott was always meant to be something that group of odd and creative tthehe average person could just sit down and read. Flaming people that I would hang Carrotarrott did well with readers who were average people that out with. It was sort of like jjustust didn’t read comics. I would get that a lot. Also a lot of a Jack Kerouac/William S. ffemaleemale readers, too. Gumbyy was popularpopu with women, too. Burroughs/Neal Cassady CBC: YYouou wanted to get women readers? Girl readers? kind of group of odd char- Bob: I always aimed to make my books accessible to the acters and friends. We had average person — to produce the kind of story that went bizarre adventures and a lot bbeyondeyond the Marvel and DC continuity so its audience wasn’t of partying. It was just thisI F YOallaUll 14-yearENJOY-oldED boys.THIS Comic PREV fansIEW were, very open minded, and nice, abnormal existence. CLICKthey TH acceptedE LINK TFlamingO ORD CarrotER TtH. TheyIS gaveg me a base. So I’m ISSUE IN PRINT OR DIGITAL FORMAT! CBC: WWereere you hanging definitely not knocking the fans. Comic book people stepped with an avant-garde crowd? up big time. Or a beat crowd? CBC: WWereeerere there thoughts to different modes of distribu- Bob: Yeah, it was Bohe- tion? Of getting it out there in front of those type of people mian, avant-garde, creative who wouldn’’tt typically go into comic stores? Or were you people. These kind of people trapped in that...? tend to find each otherr.. They Bob:Bob: Yeah, there was thought of that. I had the idea of create a center of gravity breaking Flaming Carrott stories down into half-page or one- and 99 times out of 100, page segments and putting it in college newspapers. There nothing ever happens. They would be maybe five or ten panels between gags. I just just go their merry ways and don’don’t know if they would’ve gone for it. I didn’t think doing on to their normal lives. And single-gagsingle-gag things like Zippy the Pinheadeadd would work for the ours did too, but for me, I just stories we had, broken down like that. But it was one of the kind of held onto the oddball ideas I had. I also felt Gumbyy could getge out there and go far thing and continued with it. and wide. At one point, we were trying to break it down to CBC: In social circles with CwherewOhereMIC itB OwouldOK C beRE likeATO aR children’ #8 s storybook, with text down people outside of comicT he creatorsbelow of Madm andan an dthe Flam Ricking Ca rGearyrot— MIK picturesE ALLRED & above that. BOB BURDEN —share a cover and provide comprehensive inter - books, did being a comicvi ews and arCBC:t galore, pTToluos BgetILL S CitH intoELLY isbookstores interviewed abo orut h musicis stores or any other book creator have a kid nofew HARVEdistributionY KURTZMAN b iooutsidegraphy; w eof pr eregularsent the co channels?nclusion of our BATTON LASH interview; STAN LEE on his final European social cachet? WasWas it cool?comic conveBob:Bntiob:on tou rW; faen -wantedfavorite HEM toBE getCK , a itnd outmore into! the regular bookstores. Bob: Oh, it was reprehensi- (PeopleP84eople-page F UhaveLL-CO toldLOR m meagaz thatine) $ 8Pandemonium.95 um Boulevardd is some- ble! [Jon laughs] If you were thing that(Digi tcouldal Edition go) $3 .into95 a regular bookstore. Probably would a comic book artist, people http://twowantmorrows.c oam/ indifferentdex.php?main_pag ecover=product_in foand&produ ctsomes_id=1150 tweaking. would look at you like you CBC: YYouou wouldn’’tt go with the Dave Stevens cover to the were criminal. mass market. CBC: Even the Bohemian Bob:Bob: That’s a pretty sexy coverr.. ComicCom fans know who crowd? Dave is, but maybe something less salacious for prime time Bob: Yeah, back in those bookstores. days, they looked down their CBC:CBC: How has that book been received?

nose at you! Even the artsy Bob:Bob: The book has a lot of memoirs and explanations; it ©

B o

people. “Oh, you’re a comic ttalksalks about creativity and all that kind of stuff. So it’s not your b

B u

book artist? Please! I don’t aaverageverage comic artist book. Some people don’t know what to r d e n

even know you! I forgot make of it, and others seem to get it. . what you look like already.” They didn’t want anything to do Above: Even as a child, Bob was with you. That’s why I would tell people I was in the drawing,drawing, creating and envision- movie business. And at times I was. At one point I was ing a new comic universe for a actuallyactually working with a retired producer named Ted yet-to-be direct market. Toddy. He made a lot of all-Black feature films back in the ’30s and ’40s. I was trying to get these old films out to a college audience like they had been doing with the Marx Brothers or WW. C. Fields.Fields. OrOr Reefer Madness. There was a market rentingrenting themthem toto colleges.colleges. AlsoAlso I I was writing screenplays. I wrotewrote aa screenplayscreenplay backback in the ’70s for Sheena, Queen of the JungleJunglee because Jerry Iger said, “Hey write a SheenaSheena screenplay. We ccanan sell it!” And ofof course,course, II didn’didn’t have the vaguest Right inset: AtAt Forrest J Ack- idea of whatwhat II waswas doing.doing. II thinkthink II may may even even still still have have erman’’ss fabled AckermansioAckermansion, a copy of the f*ckin’ screenplay around somewhere. Bob Burden is in awe before the CBC: YYouou had the Teenageeenage Mutant Ninja Turtles “WWallall of VirgilVirgil Finlay OriginalsOriginals.” show up within your comic book,ok, and that did well for

72 s3PRING  s #/MICC BBOOK CREAATT OR