Tuesday Volume 585 9 September 2014 No. 35

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 9 September 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 741 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 742

Mr Vara: I have to say, it really is rich of the Opposition House of Commons to talk in such terms. Here we have a party that is constantly criticising, yet has said that there will be no Tuesday 9 September 2014 more money available in the unlikely event of it being in government. The Opposition really do need to sort out their act: they need to decide whether they are opposing The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock for opposition’s sake, and, if they do want reforms, where the money will come from and how much. PRAYERS Mr Speaker: Mr Graham Allen. Not here.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Prisons: Books

3. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What assessment he Oral Answers to Questions has made of the availability of books to prisoners. [905235]

The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice JUSTICE (Chris Grayling): Prisoners have essentially the same access to books as they did under the Labour Government. Prison libraries offer the full service offered to all of us The Secretary of State was asked— by our local public libraries. There has been no specific Court Closures policy change about books under this Government.

1. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Whether he Philip Davies: I am grateful for that answer. The has any plans for further court closures. [905233] answer to a recent parliamentary question confirmed that £106 per prisoner is spent on libraries in prison, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice and from a recent freedom of information request I (Mr Shailesh Vara): With the exception of recently learned that in Leeds prison there are 10.5 books per published proposals on Abergavenny magistrates court prisoner, and in Wakefield prison 16.9. In contrast, in and Caerphilly magistrates court, Bracknell magistrates the libraries in my constituency for the general public, court, Knutsford Crown court and Spalding magistrates there is only about one book per person. On that basis, court there are no plans for further court closures. does the Secretary of State agree that, rather than prisoners being denied reading material, they are in fact Nick Smith: How many courts closed since May 2010 far better served than the general public? have yet to be disposed of? Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend makes an important Mr Vara: I will come back to the hon. Gentleman point. Those who have visited prison libraries will know with the precise figures. that they are well stocked and well supported by high-quality staff. In most prison libraries one will find local projects Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): As the Minister helping prisoners to read, and I pay tribute to the work says, the Ministry of Justice is consulting on the closure done by our prison librarians in tackling literacy problems of Caerphilly court in my constituency. The proposal in our prisons. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: the from the MOJ is, frankly, back-of-the-envelope stuff. It fuss made about this issue has been wholly disproportionate will create enormous inconvenience for my constituents, and detached from the reality. and what is more, the local MP has not even been consulted. Is that acceptable? Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): But will the Secretary of State give Parliament a report on how many minutes Mr Vara: There has been a consultation of which the each week each prisoner is able to visit a prison library? local MP is aware, and he, like anyone else, is entitled to We regularly hear reports of lack of staff preventing give his view in that. We are constantly reviewing the prisoners from visiting prison libraries, and lack of courts estate to ensure that it meets operational needs. space preventing toe by toe and similar reading programmes If any decisions are to be taken on the hon. Gentleman’s from being mounted. particular court, I hope that he will have been active in making his views heard. Chris Grayling: The challenge we have in our prisons is not making space available in libraries for prisoners Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Yesterday, to visit but encouraging them to visit. That is why we leading counsel told the High Court that the Lord are pursuing projects such as toe by toe and encouraging Chancellor was causing literacy programmes. To be frank, I wish more prisoners “very serious harm to the…criminal justice system” wanted to go to our libraries. and described his modus operandi as “a caricature of fairness: empty abuses, bluff and bully, divide Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): Will the Secretary and rule”. of State carefully consider the report published this Beyond the closure of hundreds of courts and law firms week from the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, and the destruction of legal aid, what else does the Lord which shows that improved literacy really supports Chancellor have in mind to undermine the rule of law, rehabilitation and recommends that prison libraries which his oath of office requires him to uphold? should be open at weekends? 743 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 744

Chris Grayling: I will read that very carefully; it is a Mike Penning: I pay tribute to the campaigning that helpful contribution to how we address the literacy the right hon. Gentleman has done over many years. I problem. I pay tribute to all the volunteers in the toe by look forward to him knocking on my door in the next toe programme, and to all the prisoners who can read couple of weeks, I am sure, to come in and see me as the and devote time to helping those who cannot. It is a new Minister. We are doing everything we possibly can path to the enhanced privileges available under our new to reverse the way victims are treated, or perceived to be regime. It is important that we take advantage of all the treated, within the criminal justice system. In the past resources available to us to try to tackle the problem of couple of weeks I have used the analogy that we should a lack of literacy in our prisons. look at the other end of the telescope and put victims first. That is why the victims panel was set up by the Victims of Crime Secretary of State. I look forward to working with many of the victims groups so that we can reverse the feeling that they are being treated unjustly. 4. Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab): What steps he plans to take to enforce the code Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May of practice for victims of crime. [905236] I press the Minister on the countless victims in towns The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims and cities up and down our country who were forced (Mike Penning): May I, with your permission, Mr Speaker, into illegal sex—underage sex—and who were raped pay my own personal tribute to Jim Dobbin, as it is my and pushed into child prostitution? Up and down the first opportunity at the Dispatch Box to do so? Jim was country, they have got no justice. Will this code help a personal friend and a colleague of all of us in the them? Will he join my appeal for an early, major debate House. He would, I am sure, have been here at Justice in the House on that issue as soon as possible? questions because they are the sort of questions he would have been here for. He was a great man. Mike Penning: I will be more than happy to respond to a debate on that very important subject, but it is I would have asked you, Mr Speaker, if I could group above my pay grade to decide what the business in the Questions 4 and 8, but I do not need to do so now, so I House will be—that decision is for the business managers. will just answer Question 4. The victims code is a The Backbench Business Committee has been enormously statutory document that places clear duties on criminal successful in this Parliament. I will be more than happy justice agencies. We will monitor criminal justice agencies’ to respond to any debate proposed by the business compliance with the victims code and my Department managers. will report back in March 2015.

Debbie Abrahams: I thank the Minister for his very Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): I welcome the kind remarks and support him in what he said. Jim victims Minister to his post. I know he will share the Dobbin was a neighbour and a long-standing friend of House’s concern about the number of young people mine, and a thoroughly decent man who will be sorely coming forward who have been victims of horrendous missed. abuse. It is very important that they get the support they need to ensure that justice is done. That includes The murdered police constable Nicola Hughes was a victims being able to give evidence away from a court constituent of mine. Her father Bryn has set up a setting via a video link. There are only a handful of charity in her name, particularly to support the families remote sites across the country, and the vast majority of murder victims. Will the Justice Secretary meet me are located within court buildings. The National Society and Bryn not only to hear about his experience but to for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has highlighted discuss how families of murder victims can be better the traumatic impact that this can have on young victims. supported, particularly during the court process? One mother described her daughter Iris’s court experience as being “like a second abuse”. Will the Government Mike Penning: I will be more than happy to meet the bring forward plans for more of these remote sites, and hon. Lady and her constituent. I have been very closely will the Minister do more to ensure that victims’ rights involved with this area for many years, not least because are protected, as we have proposed, with a victims law? my constituent Billy Dove was murdered right outside my constituency office, and the family set up a charity straight after that. I have had the honour of chairing Mike Penning: I am obviously very aware of the the victims panel. I will be more than happy to meet the NSPCC’s campaign, not least because, quite rightly, I hon. Lady and see the work that is being done brilliantly, am signing an awful lot of letters for colleagues at the I am sure, in her constituency. moment. I have also, in these early days, already met the chief executive and chairman of the NSPCC. We are Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): May I coming to the end of a pilot of remote video evidence add my condolences to the family of the late Mr Jim and I am waiting for the evidence of how it has worked. Dobbin? He will be sorely missed. I would like to roll it out as fast as possible, if the evidence shows—as I think it will—that it should be. As the Minister will be aware, victims are often secondarily victimised by poor treatment within the justice system. It seems that whereas perpetrators have HMP Northumberland rights, victims have only codes and charters. What plans does he have to improve the treatment of victims of 5. Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) domestic violence, including those who suffer from (Lab): What assessment he has made of the coercive control, which I hope—I am still campaigning— effectiveness of governance and security at HMP will become subject to a law in the coming months? Northumberland. [905237] 745 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 746

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Andrew Selous: I am extremely grateful to my hon. (Andrew Selous): The National Offender Management Friend for bringing a bit of balance to our discussions Service regularly carries out assessments of all aspects on HMP Northumberland. I thank him for what he has of security and delivery at HMP Northumberland and said. Of course, there are some pressures in our prisons, will continue to monitor the prison’s progress closely. but prison officers are doing magnificent work every day. Frankly, it is time that was recognised and celebrated. Mr Brown: May I caution the Minister against reading out what the civil service put in front of him as if that Criminal Convictions were a satisfactory answer to the question? The situation at the prison has been described by work force 6. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): What estimate representatives as a “powder keg”. The issue is the he has made of the number of offenders given a dramatic reduction in staffing and the increase in the number non-custodial sentence in the past three years who had of prisoners. I urge the Minister to look at the situation more than 100 previous convictions. [905238] and satisfy himself that the prison is safe, because all the advice that the region’s MPs are receiving is that it is The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice not. (Chris Grayling): There are far too many people in that situation. I am clear that there must be tough penalties Andrew Selous: I think I can give the right hon. for serious or repeat offences. More people are going to Gentleman some good news. Like all prisons, HMP prison and for longer under this Government. The basis Northumberland is subject to performance targets and of the hon. Gentleman’s question is precisely why I am it is currently at level 3, the second highest level. Twelve taking steps in the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill to new recruits have just joined the prison, 13 more are due ensure that we toughen up the system of cautions so to start next Monday and 22 reserve staff can be called that they are no longer available for serious or repeat up to make up any shortfall, so I do not recognise the crimes. We have also taken steps to ensure that all description given by the right hon. Gentleman. community penalties contain a punitive element.

Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Does Graham Jones: I thank the Secretary of State for that the Minister recognise that adequate staff numbers are answer, but I am sure that Members throughout the essential not only to safety but to rehabilitation, and House and the public outside will be deeply concerned that I expressed concerns to his predecessor that the that in 2013 more than 1,000 people were given a public sector bid and the Sodexo bid, which was successful, non-custodial sentence despite having 100 previous both involved a significant reduction in staff numbers? convictions, while 30,000 offenders were given a non- custodial sentence despite having committed 30 or more Andrew Selous: I absolutely recognise what the Chair previous offences. Should not more consideration be of the Justice Committee says. As I have just said, we given to residents, particularly in deprived neighbourhoods, are increasing staff numbers at the prison: 13 more who have to put up with persistent and repeat offenders recruits are due to start next week, 12 have already in their communities? joined and there are 22 reserve staff available. The prison will also have a further inspection next week, so Chris Grayling: I completely agree with the hon. we are keeping these matters closely under review. As I Gentleman. That is why we have brought forward a have said, more staff are joining. number of the measures in the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill, which is now in the other place. I hope that Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab) rose— it will reach the statute book by the end of the year, and that it will deliver much-needed change. Mr Speaker: Order. I say in all courtesy to the hon. Gentleman that HMP Northumberland is a long way Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): from Wrexham. It may be that the hon. Gentleman has Does the Secretary of State agree that sustained and a constituent who is incarcerated there and if he can meaningful employment is very important in reducing solemnly assure the House that that is the case, I shall high reoffending rates? be happy to hear him; otherwise, he might prefer to wait for another question. Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree, which is why I think that a combination of the efforts that this Government Ian Lucas indicated assent. are putting into that—the work being done to increase the number of employment opportunities within prisons; Mr Speaker: We will leave it there for now, but the the work being done by the Work programme to help the hon. Gentleman will be heard. I feel sure of that—he long-term unemployed, particularly those who have always is. been offenders; and, indeed, this Government’s great success in creating a fast-improving labour market—are Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I have constituents all contributing to tackling the problem to which he in HMP Northumberland and I visited the prison this rightly refers. summer. May I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests? When Treason I met the management and individual prison officers this summer, I was impressed by their hard work, dedication 7. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Whether and commitment to the prison. Does the Minister agree the offence of treason is available for use by prosecuting that we should get behind them and not endlessly snipe authorities against UK citizens participating in jihad in at the prison and its staff? the middle east. [905239] 747 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 748

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims Hughes): The coalition Government take very seriously (Mike Penning): With permission, Mr Speaker, I will the potential threat posed by a small number of British not read out the answer I read out earlier when, as is citizens who have travelled abroad and participated in understandable, the hon. Lady was not in her place. I conflicts in Syria and Iraq. Those who participate in just reiterate that the victims code is a statutory document foreign conflicts may be prosecuted for offences such as that places clear duties on criminal justice agencies. The terrorism under the Terrorism Acts 2000 and 2006, Department will report to the Criminal Justice Board in murder or conspiracy to commit murder, and offences March 2015. As I said to the shadow Minister, the hon. under the International Criminal Court Act 2001 for Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), I will keep breaches of international humanitarian law. It is of an enormously close eye on how this is being done, and course the case that treason remains on the statute if we need more powers we will take them. We intend to book, although the last prosecution was in 1945. spend £100 million, which includes a lot of money coming from the perpetrators of such crimes, across all Mr Hollobone: ISIS, al-Qaeda and other groups are Departments to help victims. sworn enemies of our country and hate everything we stand for, and British citizens who go abroad to take Stella Creasy: On 14 January, the Minister’s colleagues part in jihad—or holy war—are giving aid and comfort in the Foreign Office wrote to me extolling the virtues of to the Queen’s enemies. The British public want to see having signed the EU directive that means the families some exemplary prosecutions for treason so that the of victims of crimes that happen in Europe should seriousness of this international terrorist activity can be expect to be able to enjoy the same rights as they would fully and properly recognised. in their home countries, and on 7 April they wrote to tell me that it is the Minister’s responsibility to make Simon Hughes: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. that happen. Will he therefore meet me, my hon. Friend All Ministers in all Departments are very clear both the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) that we need to use effectively the powers we already and the families involved in the Tyrell Matthews-Burton have and that we have to take new powers, which have case? The victim’s family and the witnesses have all been been announced by the Prime Minister, to fill any told that they have to raise the funds themselves to be potential gaps in the protections we have. The powers able to go over to Malia to give evidence in this terrible will be targeted, proportionate and effective, and they murder trial. I am sure that he would agree that the will ensure that we meet our commitment to international victim’s voice not being heard is not what we would law and human rights. expect to see at home. As a Liberal Democrat Minister, may I make it absolutely clear on behalf of all the team in the Ministry Mike Penning: Of course, whether the new Minister of Justice that we as a Government will take all the or not, I will be more than happy to meet the hon. Lady measures necessary to keep our country safe? We have and her constituents, and the other hon. Lady’s already announced that there will be new powers to take constituents—I think that is the sort of role I should be passports from people temporarily while investigations playing—and look at the case closely, which I have not are made to prevent them from travelling to places such yet had an opportunity to do. as Syria and Iraq. Mr Speaker: I think that the hon. Lady was referring Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Does my right to an hon. Gentleman, if memory serves me correctly. I hon. Friend agree with the Law Commission’s 10th would not want the Minister to suffer from gender programme for law reform, which states that the offence confusion. of treason should be looked at again because it is outdated and needs improvement? It covers many offences David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Previous that we would not now consider to be offences, and it is grooming trials have been characterised by intimidatory not actually useful law. Will he get his team to look at and vicious cross-examination by defence barristers, that? and often by multiple defence barristers. Will the Minister assure us that steps are being taken to stop that happening? Simon Hughes: As I said, the offence of treason has not been used since 1945. It dates from a much earlier Mike Penning: Although I cannot interfere in the role statute. The Law Commission has not looked at it of barristers in the courts, we are looking at the matter recently, but there is no reason why it should not come very closely and have piloted the use of video conferencing forward with a proposal to do so. On this issue, the so that evidence can be given remotely or from behind a Government are absolutely focused on making sure that screen. It is vital that victims have the confidence to people who go abroad and either commit serious offences become witnesses, and I will do everything in my power abroad or when they come back to this country are to ensure that they have the support they need to do so. prosecuted now and effectively. I hope that my hon. Friend will accept that we need to make sure that we Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Colin McGinty have the full panoply of powers while respecting our was murdered almost 14 years ago. His parents recently international obligations, and that there are plenty of gave a victim statement remotely, but the chair of the such powers without using the offence of treason. parole panel forgot to turn off his microphone and they Victims of Crime overheard him say that their views would be disregarded. No doubt the Justice Secretary is explaining what happened. 8. Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): What They have received an apology for what happened, steps he plans to take to enforce the code of practice which was incredibly distressing, as Members will for victims of crime. [905240] understand. Can the Minister confirm that the Justice 749 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 750

Secretary’s written advice is that victim statements are The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice an important part of rehabilitation because of their role (Chris Grayling): Overall reoffending rates have barely in the demonstration of empathy and remorse by offenders, changed over the past decade. Under our transforming and will he ensure that that is put clearly to the Parole rehabilitation reforms, we will draw on the best services Board and to parole panels? from across the public, private and voluntary sectors in order to deliver better rehabilitation support to more Mike Penning: I have not yet had an opportunity to offenders, reduce the number of potential victims and look at the full details of the case the hon. Gentleman make our communities safer. For the first time in recent refers to, but I know that there is an ongoing investigation history, virtually every offender released from custody to find out how it happened and to ensure that it does will receive statutory supervision, rehabilitation and not happen again. I can only emphasise, as a human mentoring support in the community. being, that it must have been horrible to hear that being said in the background. We must ensure that it does not Heidi Alexander: A4e recently pulled out of a £17 million happen again. The Secretary of State met the group contract to deliver education and training in London only last week to discuss the matter. prisons. It has been suggested that one reason for that is staff shortages so severe that there are not enough Insurance Fraud officers to escort prisoners to classes. If prisoners who want to learn cannot even get to the classroom, what does that say about the Government’s so-called 9. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What rehabilitation revolution? steps his Department has taken to prevent insurance fraud. [905241] Chris Grayling: All I can tell the House is that the scenario painted by the hon. Lady is completely untrue. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara): I can assure my hon. Friend that Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): May the Government are committed to tackling insurance I encourage the Justice Secretary to look at innovative fraud. We are banning lawyers from offering inducements ways of tackling re-offending? My neighbouring in personal injury claims and are legislating to penalise constituency in Barnet is looking at using GPS monitoring fundamentally dishonest claimants. We are also consulting in new ways that go beyond traditional electronic on a requirement for lawyers to undertake previous monitoring and the Serco-G4S expensive model, and claims checks on whiplash claimants, which will combat into ways that tackle the behaviour of some of the most fraud at source. prolific offenders. It is having great results. Stephen Mosley: It is estimated that insurance fraud Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. and exaggerated claims cost some £2.1 billion last year, The arrival of GPS tags in this country provides a great with motor insurance alone costing about £811 million. opportunity for the criminal justice system in a variety Ultimately, it is not the insurance companies that pay of different ways. We will have first access to that out, but the consumers, who pay for it through higher technology in a form that is sufficiently robust to be insurance bills. What further measures is my hon. Friend used in courts if necessary later this year, and I think it taking to tackle the compensation culture in this country? has great potential. Mr Vara: The compensation culture to which my Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): The right hon. hon. Friend refers means that honest drivers are having Gentleman needs to know that the cost of reoffending to pay higher premiums because of abuses, especially in is now the same as holding the London Olympics every whiplash claims. That is why the Government have put single year. There is now more overcrowding, less education, in place measures to deter unnecessary speculative and and more violence in our prisons than ever before. Why exaggerated claims, while ensuring that genuine claimants will he not admit that the only intervention his Government can come forward and have proper redress. In the first have made in the past four and half years that has had phase of our measures, which will start next month, the effect of reducing reoffending statistics is the one there will be fixed costs of £180 for medical reports, when he decided to change the way he would calculate which in the past had been as high as £700. those statistics? Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): There have been Chris Grayling: I am afraid I have to correct the hon. many examples across the whole United Kingdom of Lady. At the moment our prison system is at its least scams being carried out by a number of individuals overcrowded for 10 years, and the number of prisoners with different insurance companies. Is it not time that going through education is set to increase significantly insurance companies exchanged ideas and ensured that this year. they are forensically competent in dealing with fraud? Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Mr Vara: The hon. Gentleman raises a good point. Will the Secretary of State say what action his Department That exchange of ideas is happening, and we are is taking to reduce the trend in shop theft, particularly encouraging it to happen more. where that might fuel a drug or substance habit?

Reoffending Chris Grayling: That is one reason why I think it is important that we address the caution system, because 10. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): What it has been possible for somebody who commits an act steps he is taking to reduce reoffending. [905242] such as shop theft simply to receive a caution again and 751 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 752 again. Those people must come to court to be dealt with before the end of the year. There were supposed to be properly by our magistrates, and that is why the measures dozens and dozens of private companies, charities and in the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill are so important. voluntary groups bidding for the contracts, but there Transforming Rehabilitation Programme are not—in some areas, only one company is bidding for a contract. Staff—both those who respond to surveys 11. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): and those who do not—are complaining of chaos at the What progress his Department has made on the probation service. Morale is at a record low and experienced transforming rehabilitation programme. [905243] and dedicated staff are leaving. Given that, are there any circumstances in which he would put a stop to the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice botched privatisation of the probation service? (Chris Grayling): Transition to the new probation structures took place on 1 June, and bids to run community Chris Grayling: I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman rehabilitation companies were received at the end of is plain wrong. He needs to stop listening to the trade June. More than half the bidders include a voluntary, unions; of course the trade unions still think this is a mutual or social enterprise organisation, and mutuals bad idea, but in reality our reforms are bedding in well continue to feature strongly. The contract winners for and we will deliver the changes necessary to provide each CRC will be announced by the end of 2014, as support and supervision to people who get none at the planned. moment. The Labour party has no answers about how Caroline Lucas: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree it would deliver that. that it is deeply worrying that a recent survey of probation On competition, the right hon. Gentleman’s facts are workers shows that more than 90% disagree with the plain wrong. I think we have 86 bids, with an average of view that the changes will provide value for money for four bidders in each area and a good mix of organisations the taxpayer, or improve service provision for users—they from the public, private and voluntary sectors,. I am talk about spiralling work loads, stress, and dysfunctional completely confident that we will shortly deliver a really IT? When will he stop ignoring the experts and admit innovative approach to rehabilitation, despite the blind that the best option to reduce reoffending and protect opposition of the Labour party. public safety would be to cancel the probation sell-off and re-integrate the two parts of the service at the Courts Rebuilding Programme earliest opportunity? Chris Grayling: I take greater comfort from the fact 12. Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland that 90% of probation officers chose not to respond to South) (Lab): What progress his Department has made their union’s survey and are getting on with the job, the on its courts rebuilding programme. [905244] excellent work they do on a day-by-day basis, and their good work to help the new systems bed in. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara): Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I Service continues to keep the use of its estate under find the Secretary of State’s complacency extremely review to ensure that it meets operational requirements. worrying. Two hundred probation officers turned up last week to lobby their MPs, all of them consistently reporting that the system is not working. The Secretary Bridget Phillipson: Last November, I and my hon. of State refused to undertake pilot schemes in advance Friend the Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) of these reforms, but he did enact what he described as met the Minister to press the case for the much-promised assessments called test gates. There have been three of rebuilding of Sunderland’s court complex, but unfortunately, those. The fourth was meant to start on 1 June but I since then, nothing has happened. Will he now join us, believe it has not started yet. Will he publish all the visit Sunderland and see the state of the existing court information from the test gates, so that we can see what buildings and the impact these new courts could have in they have reported regarding the implementation of the the regeneration of the city centre? reforms? Mr Vara: The hon. Lady is right to refer to our Chris Grayling: These reforms are going exactly according meeting about this matter and will be aware that in to plan and no test gate was due to start in June. We are March we announced a court reform programme to on time and the teams on the ground are making good ensure that the courts and tribunals of this country met progress. I and my colleagues have visited the trust’s the expectations of the public in the 21st century. Any successor organisations, and members of my team are decisions about the site in Farringdon row in Sunderland going out to hear what is happening on the ground. will be taken in the context of that reform programme. This is a nine-month process of delivering change in the Currently, no decisions have been taken about the site. public sector, before we reach the point of a change of ownership. We are trying to ensure that the new system Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Unless the Ministry of is bedded in well, and so far I am happy with the Justice commits capital funding to Wrexham magistrates progress being made. There is, of course, still work to be court, it will be in the peculiar position of having no done, but good progress is being made. custody facilities. Will the Minister commit capital funding Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): As usual, the Justice to construct cells at the court? Secretary has his head in the sand. He was warned against his plans to privatise the probation service, but Mr Vara: As I just said, a reform programme has he ignored those warnings. Preferred bidders were supposed been announced. It will take a comprehensive view and to be announced this week, but now he tells us it will be all matters will be considered. 753 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 754

Court Estates Reform Simon Hughes: Of course I will meet the hon. Lady who I know has been a strong advocate for the work of 13. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): What plans the Prison Fellowship and the Sycamore Tree project. he has for the completion of the court estates reform As I understand it, funding for public sector prisons programme. [905245] amounts to £917,000 over three years. I am sorry about the data problem, but I am sure we can help with that. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice The Government are clear, however, that our £30 million (Mr Shailesh Vara): The court estate reform programme pot is money raised from offenders to support the has been important in improving efficiency through the victims of crime. It cannot go to prisons or prisoners; it closure of poor quality and underused court buildings. is for activities outside the prisons to make sure that Through the programme, 140 courts have closed and people do not reoffend. these closures are expected to generate estimated savings of £152 million. The last court in the programme, Alton Reoffending magistrates court, closed last week on 5 September 2014. 15. Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con): What assessment he has made of the potential Richard Graham: The Minister will know that our merits of joint working between probation trusts and courts in Gloucester are barely fit for purpose. Land police forces to reduce reoffending. [905247] was bought for new courts by the previous Government, but they diverted the funds elsewhere. Will he confirm The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims that the site will be marketed as soon as possible to help (Mike Penning): I think we are all agreed that to tackle city regeneration, that the successful bidder for HMP reoffending to protect the public, it is critical for the Gloucester will be announced soon and that a new national probation service and community rehabilitation justice centre in the city centre will be considered positively companies to work very closely with our local police for all courts and tribunals once the justice review is forces. finished? Jesse Norman: Operation Castlemain is a police-led Mr Vara: First, may I commend my hon. Friend for initiative to tackle street drinking in Hereford. Local the diligence and conscientiousness with which he has probation officers and other agencies join police on the pursued the interests of his constituents? I fully appreciate streets in areas where street drinkers are known to the circumstances of the courts in Gloucester and am congregate. The result is a better environment for the mindful of the prison’s closure and the position of the public, closer working relations between the police and car park. As I have said, a court reform programme was probation service and a higher profile for probation announced in March and any decisions will be taken as with people at risk of offending. Will the Minister join part of that programme. me in praising this excellent example of joint working?

Restorative Justice Mike Penning: I will praise the work going on in my hon. Friend’s constituency and work that is going on 14. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What progress around the country. Joint working and joint partnerships his Department has made on increasing the provision are important. I would also like to pay to tribute to of restorative justice programmes for offenders. street pastors who do a fantastic job in constituencies, [905246] including my own.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Open Prisons Hughes): Restorative justice can play an important role in empowering victims by giving them a voice and 16. Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): What enabling them to explain the real impact of the crime assessment he has made of the effectiveness of open and hold offenders to account. There is a clear link prisons. [905248] between the use of restorative justice and a reduction in the frequency of offending. The coalition Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice have committed almost £30 million for restorative justice (Andrew Selous): Open prisons are subject to inspection services for the three years up to next year, with most of by Her Majesty’s inspectorate to measure performance this distributed through the police and crime commissioners in four key areas: resettlement, purposeful activity, safety as part of our broader approach to funding victims’ and respect. Alongside this, the Ministry of Justice services. operates an internal audit assurance mechanism. Open prisons are subject to audit in the same way as the rest Fiona Bruce: The Cheshire police and crime of the prison estate and are awarded a rating based on commissioner recently made a welcome grant to the assurance against national baselines. HMIP and internal Prison Fellowship for its restorative justice programme, audit outcomes are combined with scores from other the Sycamore Tree project. This is the first PCC funding performance measures to give an overall performance in the country for this project, which the Prison Fellowship rating on the prison rating system. All open prisons are is seeking to expand but is finding difficult to access currently rated as 4, which is exceptional, or 3, meeting owing to data provision requirements for funding. Will targets. the Minister join me in recognising the excellent work going on and meet me and the Prison Fellowship to Andrew Griffiths: I thank the Minister for that response, discuss how PCC funding can be accessed by it across but Sudbury prison is neither effective nor meeting its the country? targets. The local newspaper recently ran a story with 755 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 756 the mugshots of 24 prisoners who were still on the run Probation Service from Sudbury prison. We recently had four prisoners absconding in five days and two have disappeared in the 18. Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): last month. My constituents are concerned for their What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness safety. This is not working; what is the Minister going to of the probation service. [905250] do about it? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Andrew Selous):We are monitoring the performance of Andrew Selous: I recognise my hon. Friend’s concern, the probation service closely as we implement our reforms. but let me give him some helpful facts. The list of 24 Sudbury prisoners unlawfully at large that was recently Mrs Lewell-Buck: The probation service has warned published by Derbyshire police includes cases from of the disruptive effect of splitting up the probation 1992 onwards, with half occurring before 2006. Absconds system, and is already being proved correct. Dedicated have reduced by 80% in the last 10 years, and this officers in Shields tell me that long-standing and trusting Government have recently made significant changes to relationships with clients have been cut short, which has the way prisoners are assessed for eligibility for open made those individuals more difficult to engage, and, prisons and to receive relief on temporary licence. worse, more likely to reoffend. Why have the Government ignored those warnings? Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Following Andrew Selous: Government Members are not happy representations from me and others to the Minister’s with the very high reoffending rates that we have had predecessor, I welcome the fact that the Government for decades, and we are determined to do better. We reversed their decision on having steel-strung guitars for shall be introducing supervision for prisoners who have prisoners in prison cells. Will he update us on how the been sentenced to less than one year, and we believe that reversal of that policy is going? Have there been any our reforms will be highly successful. We are ambitious problems, and does he recognise the value of music as a to end the cycle of reoffending that has blighted our rehabilitative force in our prisons? communities for far too long, and we are doing something about it. Andrew Selous: I think that one of the first letters I Topical Questions received after my appointment was from the hon. Gentleman about this issue. I was pleased that we were T1. [905258] Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): If able to resolve it. As far as I am aware, there have been he will make a statement on his departmental no issues and no difficulties. I believe the new policy is responsibilities. settling down well. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling): Given all the questions that have been Prisons: Violence asked, I think it would be helpful for me to update the House properly on the progress of our rehabilitation reforms. 17. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) On 1 June we established new structures in the probation (Con): What steps he is taking to reduce the level of service for a period of shadow running and testing. violence in prisons. [905249] Twenty-one community rehabilitation companies are now managing low and medium-risk offenders, initially The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice in the public sector, prior to the award of contracts later (Andrew Selous): My right hon. and learned Friend the in the year. The new national probation service has also Attorney-General visited Swaleside, one of the prisons been established, to advise the courts, manage high-risk in my hon. Friend’s constituency, on 2 May this year, offenders and take enforcement actions. Those functions and spoke to prison staff there. As a new Minister, I will remain in the public sector. I am grateful to staff for have been visiting as many prisons as possible, and I their hard work as the changes bed in. look forward to visiting a prison in my hon. Friend’s In parallel, we are making good progress with the constituency in due course. competition for ownership of the community rehabilitation companies. Strong competition remains in all regions, Gordon Henderson: I welcome my hon. Friend’s reply, with more than 80 bids received and an average of four but does he accept that the Prison Service is undergoing bidders for each area. More than half the bidders a great many changes, and that, as a result, the three include a voluntary, mutual or social enterprise organisation, prisons in my constituency face a number of challenges? and mutuals continue to feature strongly. All bidders I am delighted that he has agreed to visit my constituency, have experience of working with offenders. and I hope that he will be able to talk to the prison Nearly 1,000 organisations have registered as potential officers who have been affected by the changes and partners in the wider supply chain, including more than tasked with implementing them. 700 listed as voluntary, community or social enterprise organisations. We remain on track to sign contracts with successful bidders by the end of the year. Andrew Selous: I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said. I have visited prisons on a very regular basis, Mr Hanson: There have been some strong reports and have observed that, while they are certainly subject recently from the chief inspector of prisons. For example, to some pressures, excellent work is being done. I talk to Glen Parva has been described as “unsafe”, Wormwood prison officers regularly as well, and I look forward to Scrubs as “filthy and unsafe”, and Doncaster as a talking to those in his constituency. “prison in decline”. I know from my experience as 757 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 758 prisons Minister that it is never easy, but has the Secretary on Chelmsford prison, which I visited last week. Two of State any belief in his ownership of the causes of weeks ago, we had an excellent report on Parc prison in those problems? south Wales. There are staff shortages in parts of our prison Chris Grayling: It is, of course, unfortunate that press system but across the prison system we have a dedicated coverage is always of the bad reports. Today we saw an staff working hard and doing the right job. I take very excellent report from Chelmsford, and two weeks ago seriously the issue of suicide in our prisons. We saw a we saw an excellent report from Parc youth offender rise in numbers earlier in the year. We saw a fall in institution. This year the chief inspector has rightly numbers across the summer. We may see a rise or a fall been looking at prisons in which there have been challenges in future. These things are difficult to track. We work in the past, but, as the right hon. Gentleman will know very hard to tackle what is a real problem. if he visits prisons around the estate, a great deal of very good work is being done by our teams. They are undergoing Sadiq Khan: This is classic, head-in-the-sand syndrome. a process of change caused by budget pressures, but they are doing a first-rate job. For every report that “The Government cannot pretend any longer that there is no questions performance in one prison, there are many crisis in our prisons. others that show that a first-rate job is being done—as Even their own backbenchers say the system is shambolic. he himself will remember. Mr Grayling’s priorities, regardless of his budget, must be the security of the public and prison officers—and the welfare of Mr Speaker: Mr David Davis. Not here. inmates. His department’s failing on all three.” T4. [905261] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The Those are not my words. They are from an editorial in Secretary of State has long argued that we should The Sun. The House should bear in mind that the increase magistrates’ sentencing powers to 12 months Secretary of State was appointed by the Prime Minister for one offence. I hope that he can now clear up some to appeal to the red tops. What has gone wrong? confusion on the issue, because that provision was a manifesto commitment which was then abolished Chris Grayling: I will think that I have a problem in under the Secretary of State’s disastrous predecessor. our prisons when I am forced through bad planning, as My amendment proposing the introduction of the new the last Government were, to release tens of thousands sentencing power was rejected by the Government as of prisoners weeks early to commit crimes that they recently as June, but the Prime Minister has now told should not have committed. I will know that I have a the Magistrates Association at a reception that it will problem when I have to hire thousands of police cells happen before the next election. Can we clear up the when we do not have enough space in our prisons. The question of where we actually are, and can we crack on truth is that we have space in our prisons. They are less with doing something that would save money and overcrowded. We are increasing education. They are would also be incredibly popular? less violent than they were under the last Government. We face challenges given budget pressures but we are The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims doing a much better job than they did. (Mike Penning): I love doing things that are enormously popular and I also like doing things that are right. T6. [905263] Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): It is Magistrates’ sentencing powers are being reviewed and an intolerable burden on British taxpayers that they I will be able to come back to the House at its very early should be funding the cost of so many foreign convenience, I hope, with some ideas. prisoners. Can the Secretary of State inform us what action is being taken to reduce the number and return Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): The Secretary of State more of them to their home country? has previously said, and he said it again today, how proud he is of his prison reforms. The Ministry of Justice’s own figures show that suicides are up 69% in a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice year. More people died in prison last year than ever (Andrew Selous): I share my hon. Friend’s concern before. Self-harm is up 27% since 2010. Serious assaults about the issue. Reducing the foreign national offender are up 30%. The riot squad has been called out 72% population is a top priority for the Government. Last more times than it was in 2010 and one in five prisons year, we removed 5,097 foreign national offenders compared are now rated as “of concern”, double the figure 12 months with 4,072 in 2012-13 and 4,539 in 2011-12. Whereas earlier. We heard from my right hon. Friend the Member this Government have begun to reduce the foreign for Delyn (Mr Hanson) that four reports by the chief national population in prison, the number of foreign inspector of prisons have been pretty damning; the nationals in our prisons under the last Government reports on Glen Parva, Doncaster, Isis and Wormwood more than doubled. Scrubs. What will it take for the Secretary of State to accept that we are in the midst of a prison crisis? Mr Speaker: Michael Connarty. Not here.

Chris Grayling: As always, the right hon. Gentleman T5. [905262] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Has the paints a very partial view of what is going on in our Secretary of State given specific advice to prisons, prisons. Our prisons are less overcrowded than they probation services and magistrates about historic sex have been at any point since 2001. They are less violent abuse? If so, what is it? than they were under the last Government. More work is being done in our prisons today than under the last Chris Grayling: No. It is for the courts to pass sentences. Government. The number of prisoners going through It is for our prisons and probation service to deal with education is rising. Today we have an excellent report the matter. The national probation service will focus on 759 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 760 the most dangerous sex offenders. Our prisons are T8. [905265] Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): The managing increasing numbers of historic and current mentally ill constitute a large group of those who have sex offenders. We now have a number of prisons that taken their lives in prisons—in the most recent year, specialise in that and are doing excellent work with there has been the highest number since 2007. Much of those offenders. Let us hope that those numbers do not this has been traced by commentators to the harsher continue to rise, but if they do we will be ready to tackle policies introduced by the current Secretary of State. that problem. Does he not feel any shame that mentally ill people are paying this terrible price for the Government’s crude T10. [905267] Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): As a former populism? prison assistant governor, I take a great interest in the rehabilitation of ex-offenders, so I am very proud of Chris Grayling: Let us be clear first of all: any suicide my constituent, Jason Turner, a former drug addict in our prisons is one too many, and I and my colleagues, who is today launching his film, “Making your past and the team in the National Offender Management pay.” He turned his life around after 22 years of crime Service, take these issues very seriously indeed. We are and addiction, and the film features Benjamin working very hard to address the issues as to why Zephaniah aiming to show offenders how they can turn people take their lives. As I said, we saw an increase their lives around. Does my hon. Friend agree with my earlier in the year and a fall during the summer. I hope constituent Jason that offenders seeking to rehabilitate we will continue to see a fall, but we might see an should never allow themselves to be defined by their increase; these things do not follow a pattern. The past? reality is that we have looked at all the cases and there is no common pattern to them, but I absolutely refute any Andrew Selous: My hon. Friend is rightly proud of suggestion that we are disinterested in this or want to her constituent, and the objective of the Ministry of create an environment that allows this to happen. Indeed, Justice is to make sure that people do turn their lives I have said publicly that I regard dealing with issues of around, as her constituent has done. All credit to him, mental health in prisons as the next reform that this and we believe our transforming rehabilitation reforms Government should embark on. will do that for many more people. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): In his recent T7. [905264] Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): written statement on the Office of the Public Guardian, There have been reports that a number of offenders the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member remain unallocated to supervising officers following the for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), division of the probation service into probation and alludes to a future segmented supervision model for community rehabilitation companies, with obvious deputies. Will he act to reduce the number of people concerns for public safety. The Secretary of State has forced to pay through their estate for expensive solicitors said that he will only proceed with the transforming to act as deputies, and find them better value alternatives rehabilitation programme if he is confident it is safe to instead? do so. Will he now undertake to publish the findings of the test gates, including the upcoming test gate 4, so Simon Hughes: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that the public can have that reassurance? his continuing interest in this matter, and I hope that he has found the response to the consultation helpful. It Chris Grayling: I have expressly asked the chief inspector makes it absolutely clear that we want to be much more of probation to come to my office and talk to me if, in hands-on in terms of managing the role of deputies the course of the work he and his team do, he identifies who are responsible for other people’s estates, to reduce any part of the reforms that are jeopardising public the number of allegations of abuse and misuse of funds safety. He has not done so. and to ensure that vulnerable people are better protected by the courts. I also hope he will have noticed that I Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): The Ministry have ensured that if anyone wants to make a decision of Justice’s own figures show that more than half of the about who should manage any future decisions relating parties in family courts are now unrepresented by a to life or death, that decision will have to be made in solicitor. There are concerns from the legal sector that person with someone there to witness it, so that there this means that people are not getting fair hearings, and can be no risk of anyone failing to understand the actually hearings seem to be taking longer. What plans decision they are making. has the Department got to review this? T9. [905266] Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon I very much welcome the decision by the victims Hughes): Before the legal aid reforms, one party did not Minister to meet me and my hon. Friend the Member have legal representation in about two thirds of private for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) and the families law cases. It is common for the courts to deal with of Tyrell Matthews-Burton. May I make so bold as to people who represent themselves. The Department is ask that the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the very watchful of what is happening, but we have already hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire supported organisations such as Citizens Advice and (Mr Vara), who has responsibility for courts and legal Advicenow to produce more guides. There is also support aid, should join us at that meeting? He is already aware for the personal support unit, and there is new material of the case, having recently written to me to confirm for litigants in person, and new leaflets and online that one of the gentlemen charged with taking part in advice and guidance, as well as judicial support and the fight in which Tyrell was killed was convicted of advice. We expect to make further announcements of carrying a knife just five days before the event but had support to deal with this matter in the very near future. his sentence suspended so that he could go on holiday. 761 Oral Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 762

Mike Penning: I think the hon. Lady might be pushing and simply says that the numbers go up and down; he it a bit with our diary secretaries in trying to do that. If has no explanation for that. However, his own chief she wants a speedy meeting with me, I suggest that we inspector of prisons says that this is down to overcrowding. have that meeting. I will get a full briefing from my Is he wrong? colleagues and I will know exactly what is going on. Chris Grayling: We have looked carefully at this matter, Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Further to the as have the ombudsman and a number of others. There reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley is no common pattern to the suicides. (Philip Davies), will the Lord Chancellor join me on a visit to Bury and Rochdale magistrates court so that he can see for himself the excellent work that the magistrates Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): May I ask the are doing and see that the capacity exists for their victims Minister to meet me and to review the handling sentencing powers to be increased from six months to and sentencing of repeat antisocial behaviour offenders? 12 months? In my constituency, there are two cases of people on year-long ASBOs, but the victims feel that the sentencing Chris Grayling: I would be delighted to do so. has been carried out solely on the basis of the most recent offence rather than the pattern of behaviour. Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): What colour is the probation service change programme Mike Penning: As well as being the victims Minister, I on the Cabinet Office evaluation scale? am also the police and criminal justice Minister. I am sure, given that portfolio, that my hon. Friend and I will Simon Hughes: The colour is green; we are proceeding have a very good meeting. successfully with an issue that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues never dealt with. A third of those who have community orders, and a third of those with Mr Speaker: Last but not least, Julie Hilling. long sentences, reoffend within a year, but the figure is nearly six out of 10 for those on short sentences. We are going to deal with that issue now. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The Joint Committee on Human Rights has reported that the Government do Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): How many not appear to have carried out an equality impact foreign national offenders are there in our prisons, and assessment of secure colleges. Many experts, and many what concrete steps are being taken to send them back in this House, are concerned about the impact of those to secure custody in their own countries? colleges on girls and young children. Why has no impact assessment been carried out and what is the Minister going to do about it? Andrew Selous: We have 10,834 foreign national offenders in our prisons. We have signed prisoner transfer agreements with the European Union, Albania and Nigeria and, as Andrew Selous: Any introduction of under-15s and I said in an earlier answer, we removed 5,097 foreign girls to those colleges would be carefully phased; they national offenders last year. I can assure my hon. Friend would not be placed in such a college from its opening. that this is a priority for me, as it is for him. At the moment, seven out of 10 young offenders reoffend within a year. They cost on average £100,000 and sometimes Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): The number up to £200,000. The hon. Lady will know very well that of prison suicides has risen by 50% since the coalition details of assessments have generally not been released came to power. The Secretary of State sits on his hands by any Government. 763 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Afghanistan 764

Afghanistan in the years to come. I would like to take this opportunity to thank our coalition partners—Australia, New Zealand, Denmark and Norway—which are working alongside 12.34 pm us at the academy to develop the future leaders of The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Afghan army. Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): With permission, Since my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on International Development made the last quarterly Afghanistan. First, I want to pay tribute to the courage statement to the House on 14 May, the academy has and commitment of our armed forces in Afghanistan, reached full operating capacity. The third kandak of where 453 UK service personnel have been killed serving recruits, including the first female blook, have commenced our country and many hundreds more have sustained training. That is an important milestone for the academy, life-changing injuries. At the NATO summit in Wales and we look forward to continuing to support the last week, the international security assistance force— Afghans in its development. However, for that to happen, ISAF—nations joined together in honouring the sacrifice the new Afghan Government will need urgently to agree made by those killed or injured during the mission in the US-Afghan bilateral security agreement, and the Afghanistan. Our servicemen and women continue to NATO status of forces agreement. risk their lives every day, even at this late stage in As well as an effective military, Afghanistan needs combat operations. Just a few weeks ago, on 5 August, political progress and stability to safeguard its future. an attack at the national defence university outside The elections in April and June were an important step. Kabul cost the life of US army Major General Harold The fact that they took place in a process managed by Greene and injured many more, including two UK Afghan institutions was no small achievement for a personnel. I know I speak for everyone in this House people who until 10 years ago had never had the right to when I say that our thoughts go out to the general’s choose their leader. friends, family and colleagues, and to all those who were wounded. A constitutional, peaceful transfer of power from President Karzai to his elected successor will be a It is a testament to the bravery and sacrifice of our milestone for Afghanistan and a source of pride and armed forces that Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven hope for its people. The enthusiasm for the elections for international terrorists of the kind who spawned the was demonstrated by the large number of people who 9/11 attacks, and that it now has the tools to maintain participated, with more than 7 million voting in the first its own security. Our troops have helped build the round. Afghan national security forces from scratch to a strength of approximately 350,000 personnel, capable of battling The UK continues to provide support to the electoral the insurgency without our help and of sustaining our process and good governance. We have committed progress in eliminating the terrorist threat to the UK £20 million to help Afghan election bodies manage the that once existed in Afghanistan. Afghan forces are 2014 and 2015 presidential and parliamentary elections. now leading 99% of combat operations across Afghanistan We are providing £4.5 million for a separate programme and proving increasingly effective. Nowhere is that clearer to increase women’s participation, and we have made than in the successful security operations to protect £7.5 million available to help strengthen political institutions both rounds of presidential elections in April and June. and processes. With minimal support from ISAF,they prevented insurgents The presidential election process has been challenging, not just from significantly disrupting the elections, but but we welcome the agreement between the presidential from prosecuting a single high-profile attack on either candidates to support a full audit of the ballots cast on polling day. 14 June and for the winner to establish a Government of Significant challenges remain, and it is clear the national unity. We welcome the joint statement to NATO insurgency will continue to test Afghan forces, particularly from the two candidates on 4 September, which reconfirmed in Helmand, but when the Taliban had some short-term their commitment to a Government of national unity. success earlier this year, capturing isolated checkpoints The UK helped the audit by providing dozens of and rural areas in northern Helmand, the Afghan national observers as part of an international effort, and now security forces quickly regrouped, reinforced the area that the audit has been completed, we encourage and reclaimed much of the lost ground. To maintain Dr Abdullah and Dr Ghani to continue to work together this progress, the ANSF needs our sustained support—and to build a Government of national unity. We have made they will get it; at the NATO summit, international it clear that our efforts are in support of the democratic partners reaffirmed their financial commitment to the process, and not any individual candidate. The choice ANSF post-2014. At the Chicago summit in 2012, the of Afghan President must be for the people of Afghanistan UK committed £70 million per annum to this crucial to make. activity. In Wales last week, we confirmed that we will Although there were reasonable and legitimate concerns continue to fund the ANSF at this level for at least the with the electoral process, they do not justify threats of next three years. violence or extra-constitutional measures. Such measures As part of the evolution of our support for security would only imperil Afghanistan by risking the international in Afghanistan, we are continuing to draw down our community’s future financial and security support for troops. We now have only about 4,000 personnel in the country. Afghan leaders now need to come together theatre, and have redeployed more than 70% of our to build on the progress and construct the positive, vehicles and equipment. All UK combat forces will peaceful future that the people of Afghanistan deserve. have left Afghanistan by the end of this year. The focus I spoke to our ambassador in Kabul just a few moments of our assistance is now the Afghan national army before coming into this Chamber, and the situation officer academy, which aims to provide the professional remains unresolved. We continue to use all our influence and effective leaders the army needs to maintain security to encourage both candidates in the presidential race to 765 Afghanistan9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Afghanistan 766 resolve the impasse over the election; to respect the 12.46 pm outcome of the audit; and to engage candidly in the political process towards a deal to form a Government. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I thank the Secretary of State for an advance copy of the quarterly statement. We look forward in due course to working with the Given the scheduling of the statement, as he is aware, I new Government as they build on the achievements of shall be responding on behalf of the shadow Foreign the past decade. We should be proud of the advances in Secretary. basic services and economic development that we have helped to bring about. Some 6.7 million children now Let me join the Secretary of State in paying tribute to attend school, almost 3 million of whom are girls—there the British service personnel who have served and continue was virtually no female education under the Taliban. to serve in Afghanistan, to their families, who support Some 15,000 km of roads have been rehabilitated, and them every step of the way, and to the 435 killed serving 60% of the population now live within two hours’ walk our country. They are in our thoughts every time we of a public health facility, compared with less than 10% meet to discuss Afghanistan in the House. I join him in having any access to health care services in 2002. offering condolences to the families of the two UK There has also been significant progress on human personnel who were injured in the attack at the Fahim rights, particularly women’s rights, since 2001, but we national defence university, which took place since the recognise that the gains made are fragile. We continue last such statement. to remind the Afghan Government of the need to abide This has been a significant week in securing the by their international commitments and the Afghan future of Afghanistan following the ISAF draw-down constitution to ensure the equal rights of all their by 2015, so we welcome the progress made at last week’s citizens and to respect freedom of worship. NATO summit, as outlined by the Prime Minister and To help safeguard those gains, the UK will continue the Foreign Secretary. It is clear that Afghanistan is a to support the Afghan Government’s efforts to build on different country from what it was before operations the progress made, to grow their economy and to provide began, and the whole House will agree that the priority basic services and opportunities to all Afghans, including now must be to agree a strategy for consolidating the women. We are providing £3 million to strengthen gains achieved through such sacrifice. That strategy access to justice for women in up to six provinces across must include a political settlement for Afghanistan, a Afghanistan. We contribute to the comprehensive stable security agreement, support from regional allies, agriculture and rural development facility—CARD-F— the continued engagement of international partners programme, which operates in five provinces, including and the defence of human rights. I shall take each of a pilot programme in Helmand and a new intervention those in turn. in Parwan. The programme promotes sustainable growth As the Foreign Secretary indicated, progress in in legal rural incomes and employment. We also contribute Afghanistan crucially depends on Afghan leaders resolving to the strengthening provincial administration and their post-election differences and agreeing to form a delivery—SPAD—programme, which helps local unified leadership for their country. As talks and dialogue government bodies in Bamyan deliver better public between Abdullah Abdullah and Ashraf Ghani continue, services in accordance with communities’ needs and the internationally backed process still holds the promise priorities. of being Afghanistan’s first democratic transfer of power, We are acutely aware of the challenges that the new so will the Foreign Secretary tell the House what progress Government will face. Although the Afghan economy is being made in the negotiations? Does he agree that has improved considerably over the past decade, it still the process is particularly important given the need, as remains extremely fragile. The draw-down of international he mentioned, for a status of forces agreement to be forces, a continued reliance on a volatile agricultural reached with the Afghan Government, for which, of sector and delays to mining projects all mean that the course, an Afghan Head of State is needed? Both candidates economy remains vulnerable to shocks. The protracted are committed to signing the agreement, but disputes election process has also affected economic growth. about the results of the election have delayed any signature. Afghanistan also faces significant fiscal challenges. Does he agree that an agreement is urgently needed so The new Afghan Government will need to take urgent that the non-combat mission can be officially launched steps to manage expenditure, increase revenue collection and the vital planning work can begin? further, address the fragility of its financial sector and Alongside vital political progress, Afghanistan’s future strengthen governance and transparency. We will have stability will inevitably require a strong and stable Afghan an opportunity to discuss those issues when the UK security force. Despite the important pledges made at Government co-chair the London conference on last week’s NATO summit, which we welcome, there is Afghanistan with the new Afghan Government in still a real risk of there being a shortfall in funding for November. That conference will be an opportunity for the Afghan security services after the international draw- the international community to reaffirm its support for down. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that more still Afghanistan’s development, to review progress against needs to be done to ensure that continued resources are commitments made at the Tokyo conference in 2012 available to the Afghan security forces in the long term? and to shape our future development partnership with Afghanistan, including the delivery of critical reforms, What is his assessment of the Government’s confidence in the period after combat operations. in the internal cohesion of those Afghan forces and This country should be proud of what we and the their capabilities in the face of sustained pressure in the Afghan people have achieved since 2001. Our focus now months ahead? is on helping the Afghans to build on the gains of the With the end of the ISAF mission by the end of the last decade and, through our enduring commitment to year, the nature and scope of our engagement with their security, continuing to protect the UK from harm. Afghanistan will change. The Foreign Secretary made it I commend the statement to the House. clear that Britain’s post-2014 contribution will be focused 767 Afghanistan9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Afghanistan 768

[Mr John Spellar] The right hon. Gentleman asked about progress on the presidential negotiation. I think I mentioned in my on the Afghan national army officer academy, but are statement the current state of play there. The audit is there any plans for the UK to contribute to broader complete. I am told that the results of the audit will be non-combat missions in Afghanistan? With those forces made available privately to the candidates on the 11th or remaining in a training role in Afghanistan for some 12th of this month; there will then be a 48-hour period time following the 2014 draw-down, can the right hon. in which they can lodge formal complaints with the Gentleman reassure us about the levels of force protection electoral complaints commission, with a public that are envisaged? announcement expected on the 15th of this month. Alongside our armed forces for many years now have Notwithstanding the result of the audit, we are urging been brave and committed British civilians from NGOs the two candidates to continue to work together on the and Government officials, who have worked hard as political process to form a Government of national part of an international aid effort to help to build peace unity, and that is where we are focusing our effort at the and progress in Afghanistan. Does the Foreign Secretary moment. agree that given events in Afghanistan and elsewhere, We have made our commitment on the funding of the threats to their safety could become more significant? ANSF, and many other nations have made commitments. What steps are being taken to ensure the protection of The US, which is leading the funding effort, continues international aid workers in Afghanistan? to chase the recalcitrants—those who have not yet Recent events across the middle east have highlighted signed up. My understanding, though, is that the United to all of us the effect that outside actors can have on the States is committed to meeting the funding deficit, if internal dynamics of a state. In Afghanistan it has long there is one after the hat has returned, having gone been the case that certain regional players, specifically around the loop. neighbouring countries including Iran, hold the key to The right hon. Gentleman asked about Afghan national securing the long-term peace and stability we all want security forces’ capabilities. From my time as Defence to see. There is still a real danger, if the neighbouring Secretary, I can say to him with complete honesty that countries pursue individual agendas leading to instability everyone I ever spoke to in the UK military had been in Afghanistan, that all of them, as well as the wider positively surprised by the progress that the ANSF international community, will suffer from the fallout. made in terms of both quality and the speed with which What is being done to ensure the sustained and ongoing they delivered. They have continued to surprise us by engagement of regional partners, in particular Pakistan? their capabilities, the rapidity with which they have The progress the Foreign Secretary has outlined is taken overall responsibility and the enthusiasm with welcomed by the whole House, but the continued which they have embraced the responsibility for defending commitment of NATO allies to the future security and their own country. prosperity of Afghanistan is still the key. Does the Regarding the UK mission post-2014, our principal Foreign Secretary agree that the protection of human military contribution will be the Afghan national army rights remains a cornerstone of Afghanistan’s future officer academy. I think the right hon. Gentleman is stability and security, and that the UK, along with aware that the level of our personnel contribution there allies, has a vital role to play in promoting this? We will draw down quite rapidly after 2016, because this is welcome the Government’s hosting the development essentially a train the trainer programme: we are building conference on Afghanistan in November. Can the right a cadre of Afghan trainers who will be able to staff the hon. Gentleman confirm that the conference will place academy in the future. I can give him the assurance he a significant emphasis on the protection of girls and seeks that we will maintain adequate force protection women in post-2014 Afghanistan? In particular, will levels for our people for as long as they are there. I Afghan women’s groups and activists be appropriately cannot tell him what that level will be, because to some represented at the conference, and can he assure the extent it depends on how many troops other parties, House that their voices were also heard at the NATO particularly the United States, have in that part of the summit? country, but we will work closely with them. We will The Foreign Secretary described the significant gains also have advisers in Government security ministries—small made by women and girls since the Taliban lost power, numbers of high-level people who will exercise a significant but there remains a very real fear that that could be put influence and help the Afghan security ministries to at risk by the Taliban’s re-emergence at a political level, reform their effort to support the Afghan national army so will he act on Amnesty’s call for the UK to improve in the field. its support for human rights defenders, especially women, The right hon. Gentleman asked about protection for some of whom it was my privilege to meet recently? UK aid workers. That is an issue, as we will have a Will he draw up a country-specific plan, including continuing significant aid programme. Most of that will appointing someone as a focal point in our embassy in be delivered through Afghan aid intermediaries, but we Kabul? What assurances has the Foreign Secretary sought will have a number of UK aid workers, who will be to ensure that those gains will be protected as part of Kabul based after the end of this year. We will make any future negotiations over a political settlement with sure that proper arrangements are in place for their the Taliban and other insurgent groups? protection. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that a Mr Hammond: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for key factor in the future stability of Afghanistan will be the constructive tone of his remarks. I am delighted to the attitude of its neighbours, particularly Pakistan but learn, as I am sure everyone in the House is, that the also Iran. We have an ongoing and very close dialogue shadow Foreign Secretary is not abroad somewhere, but with Pakistan. We are the sponsors of the trilateral working hard in and for the United Kingdom today. dialogue between Afghanistan and Pakistan, mediated 769 Afghanistan9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Afghanistan 770 by the UK. Both the Afghans and the Pakistanis have Practical decisions have to be taken by the UK and made it clear to us that they find this initiative of the other countries in order to get our forces out by 31 Prime Minister extremely helpful and they want it to December if an agreement is not in place, but our continue, so we will continue to facilitate that discussion. working assumption for now is that it will be put in On the NATO ISAF commitment, anyone present at place within the next few weeks. the NATO summit will have been struck by the resolute commitment of the ISAF nations to protecting the Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): The Foreign legacy in which they have invested so heavily, and the Secretary referred to our enduring commitment to the measured way in which the Afghan Defence Minister security of Afghanistan. He will know that the former representing the Afghan Government set out his position Supreme Allied Commander Europe, Admiral Jim Stavridis, and the commitments that were made. Of course there was very keen that the United Kingdom should leave a is uncertainty about the outcome of the presidential residual force of 1,000. We will be leaving about half election. The good news is that both candidates are well that number. If this commitment is to mean anything, known to the UK and the ISAF allies, and their positions what will be the mix of the residual forces, and is the on the security agenda and foreign policy are almost Foreign Secretary confident that they will be able to do identical. We expect to be able to work very well with the job? whichever one eventually becomes president. The right hon. Gentleman asked about human rights Mr Hammond: I should first say that Admiral Stavridis’s and the conference in November. There will be a significant comments, as my hon. Friend very well knows, were human rights component to the conference. The Afghan made in the context of a much higher total number that Government made significant commitments on both he was then bidding for to the Pentagon and other human rights and anti-corruption at Tokyo, and the ISAF partners. The force that we leave behind will be western and other financial commitments to support focused around the training force in the Afghan national Afghanistan’s development were made in response to army officer academy, the life support troops working those. We will want to remind the Afghan Government with them, the force protection element around that, of the solemn commitments that they have made and to and a detachment of engineers to support the small ensure the mechanisms are in place for monitoring helicopter lift capability that we will need to retain in delivery. There will be a significant presence at the order to get people safely in and out of the officer conference of Afghan non-governmental organisations, academy. We are confident that that self-contained force including the human rights activists the right hon. will be adequate for the purposes we have set out. Gentleman mentions. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The Foreign Secretary Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): There is aware of my concern about the early withdrawal of are clearly difficulties in the Afghan economy, with international forces from Afghanistan given the continuing revenues down by 30% and civil servants not being economic, political and security instability. Does he, on paid, and the Foreign Secretary has spoken of difficulties reflection, still think it was the right thing to do to in the agriculture and mining sectors. This will drive withdraw troops this early? young men into the arms of the Taliban, and it would be ironic if the economy undermines the security situation. Mr Hammond: Yes, I do. When the original What progress has been made in offering support or announcement of the decision to end the ISAF combat advice, or enlisting international institutions, to help mission in December 2014 was made, lots of people the Afghan economy? said that the ANSF would never be ready, that we could never build it up to its strength of 350,000, and that we Mr Hammond: My right hon. Friend makes a valid would never be able to maintain stability on the ground. point. The Afghan economy is fragile, even though it In fact, all those things have been achieved. The ANSF has very significant potential. We all know—perhaps, has built up its numbers and has demonstrated capability rather closer to home, we were reminded of it yesterday— and commitment on the ground. In a sense, the ISAF that uncertainty is the enemy of smooth economic draw-down has been a forcing mechanism for the Afghan development and sustained growth. Once the new Government, the Afghan people and the Afghan national Government are in place, this will become a major focus security forces, and it leaves them stronger as a consequence. for our effort and that of other allies. Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I am very proud When the Foreign Secretary was Defence Secretary, he of the achievements of international forces and services suggested that if the status of forces agreement was not in Afghanistan, including those associated with signed by the end of September, we may consider Gloucestershire, such as 1 Rifles, the allied rapid reaction accelerating the draw-down of our troops. Does he now corps, and of course GCHQ. However, with security assess that the outcome of the presidential election, or a once supported by international forces in Libya and dateline for that, is sufficiently certain that that will not Iraq threatening to unravel, does the Secretary of State be necessary? agree that it is as important to the international community as it is to the Afghan national security forces that we Mr Hammond: We keep this situation under continuous deliver all the financial and technical support necessary review. We have two candidates who disagree about the to ensure their future success? outcome, but nobody disagrees that one of them has won. They are both absolutely committed to signing the Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely right—that bilateral security agreement and the status of forces is of course essential. The analogy with Libya can be agreement at the very beginning of their presidential misleading, though. The problem in Libya is a power term. At some point, this agreement must be signed. vacuum. In Afghanistan, we have a Government clearly 771 Afghanistan9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Afghanistan 772

[Mr Philip Hammond] Heathrow airport from what he regards as the hell of life in modern Afghanistan. Now that we are faced with in control of most of the country, we have the basic many grave decisions on military activity in future, institutions of civil government in place, and we have would it not be appropriate that this House looks to the the 350,000-strong armed forces who are in control of decision that we took in 2006—when only two of our most of the country. That is a very different situation soldiers had died in combat—that led to 453 of them from the one in Libya. dying? That was the decision on going into Helmand. Should we not now plan to discover what went wrong Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Prior to the NATO with that decision? summit, Mr Rasmussen looked forward to a new chapter in our relationship with Afghanistan. What hope is Mr Hammond: The military, at least, regularly look at there for that new relationship, with further and continuing decisions that have been taken and consequences that Taliban violence and the election result as yet still flow from them, as part of their lessons learned process. undeclared? We should be proud of what we have achieved in Afghanistan. Notwithstanding an individual who has Mr Hammond: The situation is not perfect, and I am decided that life in the UK looks more attractive than not pretending that it is. We would have preferred a life in Afghanistan, the fact is that for ordinary Afghans clear and decisive outcome to the presidential election life has got enormously better over the past few years. that was accepted immediately by the losing candidate. That is not what we have, although we are very optimistic This country has been in a state of almost constant that the stalemate will be resolved over the next few war for the past 30 or 40 years, and for the first time in days. With regard to continuing Taliban violence, nobody most people’s living memory they have the beginnings ever doubted that there would be a continuing insurgency. of a functioning democracy; a rapidly growing, though The question is whether we have created strong enough still fragile, economy; human rights on a scale that they institutions of government, strong enough civil institutions have never seen before; and access to health care, education and strong enough armed forces to contain that insurgency and transport infrastructure that their parents could and allow the normal life of the country to go on and to never have dreamed of. That is real and tangible progress, function. Of course, once the new Government are and we should be proud of the part we have played in it. installed and foreign forces have withdrawn, thus removing one of the principal bones of contention for many of Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): the insurgents, there must then be a move towards a Nevertheless, I put it to the Foreign Secretary that those peace process that reconciles the elements of the Taliban of us who are critical of our Afghanistan policy point who are willing to give up violence with the existing to the mistake made when we allowed the original, forces of the Government so that we have long-term narrowly focused objective of defeating al-Qaeda, which and sustainable peace in Afghanistan. we succeeded in doing and could have sustained, to morph into a much broader mission of nation-building, Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): which we have struggled to sustain and which will My right hon. Friend has one or two problems on his ultimately result in the Taliban regaining control over plate at the moment, as he will be only too well aware. large chunks of Afghanistan. What lessons can the There are now reports of a pan-Islamist fundamentalist Foreign Secretary draw from this episode with regard to link-up between the Taliban and so-called Islamic State. our policy in the region generally? Would he like to share his views on that? Is there any truth in it? Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend insists on looking at Mr Hammond: There is some evidence for it. My this with a glass-half-full mentality. Enormous gains right hon. Friend will probably have seen evidence on have been made in Afghanistan and I simply do not his television screen of individual Taliban commanders. accept that the inevitable outcome of this process is that The Taliban are not a monolithic organisation but the Taliban, as he says, will regain control of large areas individual insurgent commanders who have indicated of territory. I hope that a process of genuine reconciliation an attraction to the ideology of ISIL. That will be a between the Taliban and the Government of Afghanistan problem that has to be managed. Everything is relative, will begin as soon as a new Government are in place. If is it not? A few years ago, we talked about the Taliban my hon. Friend is inviting me to recognise the risks of as an extreme Islamist movement. In the light of what mission creep, I promise him that I am up for that. I we have seen in ISIL, it is probably fair to say that much recognise entirely that when we go into any exercise, of the Taliban agenda looks more like a nationalist political or military, we need to be clear about the agenda. It remains our belief that significant elements objectives we are seeking to achieve and we need to be of the insurgency in Afghanistan are capable of being extremely resistant to the temptation to allow the mission incorporated into a peace process. There will be small to creep. elements that are ideologically opposed to any compromise, and they will have to be dealt with very harshly. Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): What discussions has the Foreign Secretary had, either in his Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): The Foreign current role or previously, with Pakistan about how to Secretary’s welcome admission of the fragility of the stop the bases in Pakistan for elements of the Taliban situation in Afghanistan was illustrated by the actions that may not be reconciled to the new political of Lieutenant-Colonel Enayatullah Barak, who did not arrangements? As he knows, the Durand line was drawn reach Newport, although he was planning to be his by a colonial administrator and does not reflect the country’s standard-bearer, because he sought asylum at Pashtun communities on both sides. 773 Afghanistan9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Afghanistan 774

Mr Hammond: I am discovering in my new role that border. Will he bring us up to date on the latest plans many lines representing the borders of many countries for the ownership and future use of Camp Bastion and turn out to have been drawn with a red pencil by Camp Shorabak and whether they might have a role to somebody in the Foreign Office many years ago. I play? visited Pakistan in my previous role and had many meetings here with previous Pakistani Prime Ministers Mr Hammond: The state of play when I was last in and Presidents. Progress is being made along the border. the Ministry of Defence, which was eight weeks ago, A significant Pakistani effort is going on at the moment was that Camp Bastion will be transferred to the Afghans. to deal with insurgents on the Pakistani side of the That has been agreed in principle: the Afghans want to border in the North Waziristan agency area. It is essential take control of it. At that stage, there was an issue about that we continue to make the case that calming this how the perimeter would be secured without stretching border is in the interests of both countries. There are the forces of 215 Brigade, which is responsible for that insurgents on both sides of the border operating across area of Afghanistan. In principle, however, a reduced the border in the other country. The situation has to be perimeter Bastion will pass into the control of the a win-win for both countries in order to make it sustainable. Afghan national security forces on 31 December.

Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): My right hon. Friend Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The Foreign might have noted that the Iranian authorities have just Secretary has rightly drawn attention to the very difficult arrested a number of Afghan and Pakistani citizens on and hard-won progress on equal rights and human their way across Iran to join the fight for the Islamic rights, not least with regard to the 6.7 million people— State in Syria. Will he acknowledge the significant 3 million of whom are girls and young women—who number of common interests we share with Iran in are now in school. Based on his analysis of the fragility combating the Islamic State and on issues such as drug of that progress and the fragile economy and politics of interdiction coming out of Afghanistan, and will he act Afghanistan, how confident is the Foreign Secretary accordingly? that it can be protected?

Mr Hammond: I recognise, of course, that we have a Mr Hammond: The Afghan constitution guarantees number of areas of shared concern, the rise of ISIL the rights of all Afghan citizens and we have to press the being one and concerns about the flow of drugs another. future Government of Afghanistan to ensure that the My hon. Friend will know that we are on the brink of constitutional rights of all citizens are met. We also, of reopening our embassy in Tehran and we hope that that course, have a crucial lever in the Tokyo agreement, will be the beginning of a sustained but properly calibrated which provides that the substantial international aid re-establishment of good working diplomatic relationships support to Afghanistan over the years to come is specifically with Iran, hopefully on the back of a comprehensive predicated on Afghan delivery on human rights, women’s agreement of the outstanding nuclear proliferation issue, rights and anti-corruption. By the way, this is not an which we hope to see later this year. agenda that we have to force on senior Afghans—all senior Afghan political players embrace it—but it is a Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): May I ask the deeply conservative country and they have to push this Foreign Secretary for two assurances? First, is everything message down the line and make it work in practice being done, even at this late stage, to ensure that the across the provinces, towns and cities of Afghanistan. Afghan security forces are at the highest level of capability? The conference in November will have a significant Secondly, although I completely agree that we should focus on how we ensure that the Tokyo commitments be proud of what we have achieved, will the Government are delivered and that we work together with the Afghan take the opportunity at some point to learn the lessons Government to make that happen. from our commitment? It is important that we understand what we got right and what we got wrong, to inform the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): From his conduct of our foreign policy in the future. time as Defence Secretary, the Foreign Secretary will recall the argument that the hard-won gains in places Mr Hammond: I have some sympathy with that last such as Afghanistan could easily be reversed unless a point, but think that if such retrospectives are to be strategic base or bridgehead area was established for the effective, we need to allow a little air gap so that the dust medium to long term in the region. Given what has can settle and we can look at the issues from a proper happened in Iraq, where equally optimistic predictions historical perspective. I think that means that it will be about the long-term resilience of Iraqi forces were made, an issue for the next Government to consider in a what would we expect to see in terms of a long or proper and timely fashion after the general election. medium-term American presence if the status of forces In response to the hon. Gentleman’s first question, agreement is eventually signed? even at this late stage we are, of course, still building the Afghan national security forces. The emphasis has moved Mr Hammond: The US intention, subject to the bilateral from the front-line forces—the fighting capability is security agreement being signed, is to have a continuing good—to making sure that their logistics are improving presence of US forces on the ground in Afghanistan, so that those front-line forces get the support they need both for counter-terrorism activity and for the protection in the field. of US interests, but clearly I cannot speak for the US Government beyond the plans that they have already Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I very much announced. welcome the Foreign Secretary’s announcement about I just want to pick up my hon. Friend’s analogy, the engagement with Pakistan and the work being done which many other people have sought to draw, between to reduce the porousness of the Pakistan-Afghanistan the Iraqi security forces and the Afghan national security 775 Afghanistan9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Afghanistan 776

[Mr Philip Hammond] rises. That prompts this question: what reassurance can the Foreign Secretary give the House that what happened forces. Afghanistan is a country of multiple ethnicity; in Iraq will not happen in Afghanistan? Along with the yet we have not seen the kind of ethnic tensions in the training and the equipment, is there a sincere and deep Afghan national security forces that have clearly been commitment there, and is the officer training college an present in the Iraqi security forces, and which are widely integral part of ensuring that the Afghan national army believed by western observers to have been instrumental can take on and continue to defeat the Taliban? in the failure of those forces to halt the ISIL advance earlier this year. Mr Hammond: The officer training college is clearly vital, because good leadership is the key to an effective Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) fighting force. The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s (Lab): I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s information question is that the Afghan national army has shown about the £3 million that is being provided for securing itself to be very capable in a fight. There are questions access to justice for women. Further to his response to about the sustainability of its logistics, about some of the question from my hon. Friend the Member for its senior command and control elements, and about Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) about confidence in the way in which the Ministry of Defence is organised protecting women’s and girls’ rights and ensuring that and how it interacts with the army—these issues are all they are secured, what are the Government doing and being addressed—but there are no questions about the what will they do at the Tokyo conference specifically to willingness of Afghan soldiers to engage in combat, or make sure that that happens? their ability when they do so. If hon. Members talk to any British service people who have served on the front Mr Hammond: I think that the hon. Lady means the line in Helmand, gone out on patrols with Afghan London conference; the Tokyo conference took place in soldiers or seen them in fire-fights, they will say that 2012, when the commitments were made. At the London there is no doubt about their commitment, bravery and conference, we will very much look to reassert and get willingness to fight. In Iraq, the situation was exacerbated reaffirmation of those commitments by Afghanistan. by a sectarian Government who were clearly not governing We can do two things: we can use the leverage of the on behalf of the whole of the Iraqi people, and by an very significant aid and support that we provide to army that reflected and was fatally undermined by Afghanistan, and we can use our direct ability to provide those sectarian divisions. Those conditions do not exist support to the indigenous institutions that monitor and in Afghanistan. promote such agendas. Many hon. Members who have been to Afghanistan have had the opportunity to meet Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I quite incredibly brave Afghan human rights activists, had the privilege some time ago of visiting Camp including women who have come to the British embassy Bastion to see the incredible work that our servicemen to talk to us about what they are doing. In what is still a and women have done there. Given those achievements, deeply conservative country, they take some considerable is my right hon. Friend convinced that the numbers, personal risk to promote the agendas in which they with the 350,000 personnel in the Afghan national believe. security forces and those going through the officer academy, are sufficient to maintain lasting peace for the Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I future? am very pleased that the UK Government are still contributing to the comprehensive agriculture and rural Mr Hammond: The surge number of 352,000 was not development facility with the view to establishing sustainable arrived at randomly; it was very carefully calculated, agriculture, which will make a huge difference to the and we believe that it is sufficient. It is not sustainable in stability of Afghanistan and to expanding the economy. the long term, but the US has made it clear that it, The UK once had a responsibility for bearing down on along with other allies, is prepared to commit the financial poppy growing in Afghanistan. Does it still have that resources to sustain that number at least until 2017. By responsibility, and how much progress has been made? that time, we hope to be in the position to see a gradual reduction in the number needed to maintain internal Mr Hammond: No, that is not our responsibility. An security. Afghan ministry is specifically devoted to poppy and drug eradication, and various initiatives are going on in Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): Does different parts of the country. I have to say that the drug my right hon. Friend agree that our emphasis must now eradication programme is not one of the most strikingly shift from military involvement towards securing an successful elements of the package being delivered in enduring political settlement by good governance measures, Afghanistan. It is clearly an area in which significantly such as encouraging the two presidential candidates to more work is required in the future. work together, and particularly by providing financial advice on tax-raising powers, as we have for several Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Foreign years? Secretary for his statement. Much progress has been made. There is a question, however, about whether the Mr Hammond: Good governance is, indeed, one of Afghan national army is ready and able to take on the the essential ingredients. I think my hon. Friend is role whenever the UK withdraws from Afghanistan. I aware that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has ask this question because the Iraqi army was well provided advice to the Afghan Treasury on how to trained by the US army and the British Army and it was improve its tax yield, which is an essential element in well equipped, but whenever the battle came from ISIS, stabilising the Government’s finances. We will continue it evaporated like snow off a ditch when the temperature to provide advice and support to the Afghan Government, 777 Afghanistan9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Afghanistan 778 but we will also continue to encourage the peace process the future use of the British Army as part of its Future and, once the new Government is in place, to encourage Force 2020 posture. If equipment cannot be brought outreach to moderate elements of the Taliban in the back but is of sustainable use to the Afghans, which hope of reaching a comprehensive peace settlement. means that they can sensibly use and maintain it—it is no good leaving them kit that they cannot service and Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): The London conference maintain—then it will, where appropriate, be gifted to will be an excellent opportunity to continue to remind them. Equipment that fits into neither category will be the Afghan Government, as my right hon. Friend has destroyed so that it cannot possibly fall into the wrong said, of their need to abide by their international hands. commitments to ensure the equal rights of all their citizens and to respect freedom of worship. How much Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): By what success has he had in such discussions so far? mechanism can international development assistance from a wide range of nations best be co-ordinated to Mr Hammond: As I have said already, the Afghan ensure sustainable economic development for the Afghan constitution guarantees the human rights of the citizens economy? and their right to freedom of worship. The Afghan Government made pledges to respect human rights and Mr Hammond: The International Monetary Fund freedom of worship at Tokyo. However, we are not and the World Bank are involved in that process, and naive: we recognise that there can be a gap between the London conference in November will of course be a what is written on a page of the constitution and what is further opportunity to co-ordinate the actions of the delivered on the ground, and we will focus on that in the donors. months and years ahead. Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Six years ago, 16th Air Assault Brigade, with personnel from all four battalions Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The Foreign Secretary of the Parachute Regiment, undertook an extremely has spoken about the future of Camp Bastion. Will he dangerous mission in transporting a huge turbine through say something about the equipment that may well be hazardous terrain to the Kajaki dam. Will the Foreign left behind and the steps being taken to ensure that it is Secretary tell us how much electricity it is generating? put to good use by the Afghan security forces? Mr Hammond: As the hon. Gentleman well knows, Mr Hammond: Most of the equipment in use in the turbine has still not been installed. However, the last Afghanistan—the big kit, as it were, or the serious bits time I was in Afghanistan, a US team was looking at of equipment—will be brought back to the UK. Indeed, what could be done to bring it into operational use, the vast majority of it has already been brought back to because doing so could satisfy the electricity deficit in the UK, rehabilitated and brought back into core for Kandahar. 779 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Hallett Report 780

Hallett Report involvement in crime, they will be investigated by the police, and if the evidence is sufficient to warrant prosecution they will be prosecuted. That was always 1.30 pm the intended status of the scheme, but the issues raised The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa by the Downey case and highlighted in the Hallett Villiers): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to report have made today’s clarification necessary. make a statement on the follow-up to the Hallett report I regard that as the appropriate position to take, and on the on-the-runs administrative scheme, which was not an unfair one, for the following general reasons. The laid before the House on 17 July. implementation of the scheme was highly unsatisfactory In response to the report’s recommendations, and on and suffered from a series of systemic failings, as the the basis of the advice I have received and considered, I Hallett report set out for the House. It was developed have decided that the statement I make today is the piecemeal and without appropriate direction. There fairest, promptest and most effective way to reduce the were various different forms of letters, and the content risk to future prosecutions and to provide the clarity of a number of them was unsatisfactory. We know that called for in the report. I make this statement on behalf errors of fact were made, and it may well be that errors of the Government, having consulted the independent of judgment were also made when cases were considered police and prosecuting authorities, who have seen this under the scheme. It is now clear that at least some of statement and agree that it represents the best way the letters were issued on an unreliable basis. The defects forward. in the scheme identified by the report mean that there is Lady Justice Hallett emphasised on a number of a serious risk that that will turn out to be the case in occasions in her report that the letters, however phrased, relation to other letters as well. were not an amnesty. They were not a commitment by The public interest in investigating and prosecuting the state that individuals would not be prosecuted, serious crime is too important for there to be a risk of it whatever the strength of the case against them. They being undermined by a scheme that, as is now clear, were only ever meant as statements of the facts, as they suffered from such significant flaws in its implementation. were believed to be at the time, as to whether or not an There is a particularly strong public interest in decisions individual was wanted for questioning by the police. about investigation and prosecution being taken on the They were not intended to preclude investigation or basis of the current views, based on assessment now of prosecution on the basis of new evidence emerging after all the evidence, of those responsible for investigating they were sent or fresh assessment of the existing evidence. and prosecuting serious crime. However, in the light of her report, and in the light of The letters have generated a serious degree of confusion the Downey case, it is clear to me that urgent clarification about precisely what their legal effects might be, whether is needed on what comfort, if any, can be derived from alone or when set alongside other facts, as in the John those letters now. Downey case. It is very important for there to be clarity, There are two key points that it is important that all particularly in the context of serious crime. It is to be concerned should be clear about. First, the letters described recognised that, correctly or not, some of the recipients by the Hallett report, issued in whatever form, or any will have derived some comfort from a “not wanted” similar or equivalent statements not made in letters, do letter. It might be that some “not wanted” letters were not represent any commitment that the recipient would issued in error or were based on flawed judgments at the not be investigated or prosecuted if that is considered time, and that the recipients of such letters were given a appropriate on the basis of the evidence available now. degree of comfort that was in fact unwarranted, even Those who received individual or composite letters, or on the basis of the information at the time. That is any other form of indication, stating that they were greatly to be regretted. Such errors should never have “not wanted” and who derived comfort from that should occurred. cease to derive any such comfort. In short, the recipients However, two points are to be noted in any such should cease to place any reliance on those letters. cases, in addition to the more general points I have just Secondly, decisions about investigations and prosecutions made. First, the public interest in mounting an investigation will be taken simply on the basis of the intelligence or prosecution, if the evidence warrants it, would remain and/or evidence relating to whether or not the person very powerful. It should be a rare case indeed in which concerned committed offences. That means that in any such an error should prevent such a prosecution—all of their cases, and whatever was said in the letters sent the more so if the crime in question is a very serious to them or in statements made in the past, decisions one. Secondly, those who have received such statements taken today and in future will be taken on the basis of now know in clear terms what position the Government the views formed about investigation and prosecution take. They now have fair and clear warning that such by those who now have responsibility for those matters. comfort as they might have derived from the statements Their views might be the same as those that led to the can no longer be taken. There is no continuing basis for letters being sent in the past, or they might be different. any reliance on past statements. The scheme is at an It is the views of those who take the decisions now or in end. future that matter. All the evidence will be taken into All those who sought or received statements through account, regardless of whether it was available before the administrative scheme should take note of today’s the letters were sent or whether it has emerged subsequently. statement. I have deliberately made it in the public That does not mean that all those who received “not setting of Parliament, recognising and intending that it wanted” statements in the past are now considered should be widely publicised as a result. I will take “wanted”; it simply means that they are in the same further steps to disseminate it. I will be drawing it to the position as any other member of the public. If there attention of each of those who made requests on behalf is considered to be evidence or intelligence of their of named individuals, reflecting the channels through 781 Hallett Report9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Hallett Report 782 which the communication of the original letters was agree that while there may be circumstances where an made. In these ways, I can be confident that fair and agreed truth recovery process could protect people from proper notice will have been given to those affected by incriminating themselves, an across-the-board amnesty this statement, including those to whom letters were would fail the non-negotiable test of creating a system sent under the scheme. I commend this statement to the to deal with the past that puts the needs of victims at House. centre stage? Is she willing to accept that there is an urgent need for the UK Government—where appropriate, supported by the Irish Government—to create and 1.38 pm facilitate a process in support of the Northern Ireland Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): I thank the Secretary parties that can seek to end the stalemate on the Haass of State for advance sight of her statement. The continued issues, including the past and welfare reform? I conclude pain of the families and friends of the Hyde park by thanking Lady Justice Hallett once again for her victims should be at the forefront of our minds today, as thorough and balanced report. well as all those in both communities who have never had truth or justice in relation to their own injuries or Mrs Villiers: I thank the shadow Secretary of State the loss of loved ones during the troubles. The outcome for his support for the statement. Like him, I think that of the Downey case undoubtedly caused further distress the concerns of victims must lie at the heart of our to people who have suffered enough and deserved better. response to the OTR scheme, and I apologise to them That is why I felt it was right to apologise for the for the error that was made and the pain that the catastrophic error that occurred in this specific case. I Downey case has caused. I am happy to reiterate that repeat that apology today. apology. As the hon. Gentleman said, I also recognise However, it is also right to be robust in reminding that the First Minister’s comments today in the Belfast people of the hard realities and tough choices that faced Telegraph are an important statement to which I will those striving against the odds to end the violence and give careful thought. It is important that these matters secure a historic political agreement. Decisions were are discussed with care across the Northern Ireland made and things done to make possible a peace process political parties. As I said in a speech to the British-Irish that, for all Northern Ireland’s challenges, has stood the Association last week, it is important that progress is test of time, a peace process that ended 30 years of made on welfare reform, as well as on flags, parading troubles and brought to an end the killings, brutality and the past. and fear that destroyed too many lives. In response to the last question by the shadow Secretary If anyone thinks that it was easy, they have neither of State, I say clearly that the Government will continue studied Northern Ireland’s history, nor reflected on the to do all we can to bring all the parties back to the table current political stalemate across a range of issues, a on those matters, and facilitate and push for an agreed stalemate caused partly by an inability to compromise way forward. and partly because some of the issues touch festering How long it will take the PSNI to assess all the cases sores not healed by the passage of time. In that context, processed under the scheme is primarily a matter for it, the First Minister’s comments today should be welcomed and it would not be appropriate for me to speak on its as a frank acknowledgement that although much progress behalf. It has indicated, however, that it could take has been made, the current situation is unsustainable. years and will not be done in a matter of months. We As the Secretary of State has repeatedly said, the also had a recent statement by the Chief Constable that OTR scheme was neither unlawful nor offered an amnesty his resources will impact on his ability to deal with to recipients of the letters. Lady Justice Hallett confirmed legacy issues of this sort, and the resources available to that to be the case. The clear intent of the scheme was to the PSNI are affected by the current debate on welfare inform people not being sought by the police or prosecuting reform. It appears that the in-year cuts being made to authorities that that was their status at the time their the PSNI’s budget will have an impact on its ability to letter was sent. It was also clearly the intent of the deal with legacy cases, so I expect they will also impact scheme to make them aware that if any future evidence on the speed with which it can consider these cases. of a crime became available, they would be subject to appropriate action by the criminal justice system. However, Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): I thank Lady Justice Hallett found that errors had been made in the Secretary of State for her statement. On matters to at least two cases in addition to Downey, and identified do with OTRs we should always consider the victims, the possibility that there may have been other examples and victims’ families will welcome her statement today, where the basis or content of letters was questionable. confirming the view of Lady Justice Hallett that the In those circumstances the Government are right to letters could never have been considered in any way to seek to minimise the risk that other victims could be represent an amnesty, and that should fresh evidence denied justice in the future. All Northern Ireland’s come forward those who received letters will be subject parties accept that the needs of victims must be at the to the full force of the law. Will the Secretary of State centre of any new approach to dealing with the past. If confirm the Government’s robust view that an amnesty that commitment is to mean anything, the Government was never appropriate, and that all applications for the had no option but to issue today’s clarification on the royal prerogative of mercy received by the Government status of the letters. have been refused by the Government? I have some questions for the Secretary of State. How long does she estimate that it will take for the Police Mrs Villiers: I am happy to confirm what I have said Service of Northern Ireland to assess each case covered on many occasions: this was not an amnesty, and that by the OTR scheme, and is she satisfied that it has has been confirmed by all those who have appeared in sufficient resources to undertake that work? Does she front of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. I 783 Hallett Report9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Hallett Report 784

[Mrs Villiers] best way forward to do whatever we can to try to remove barriers to prosecution that might be created by believe it is confirmed by Lady Justice Hallett, and it the scheme. was confirmed by Sir Nigel Sweeney in the Downey judgment. The Government have always strongly opposed Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Does the Secretary of amnesties, which is why they opposed the Northern State agree that in a way her statement confirms what Ireland (Offences) Bill. If we had inherited a scheme was the case all along: that the letters were not get out that involved an amnesty, we would have stopped it of jail free cards, but confirmed what the police and law immediately. This was not an amnesty, and we will not officers assessed at the time, which was that these people be introducing an amnesty under any circumstances. were not wanted—wrongly in the case of Downey, and absolutely and rightly an apology is due for that—but Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I welcome the that that did not preclude prosecutions in future should Secretary of State’s statement and the fact that she evidence come to light? I realise that that gives deep made it in the House after discussions with the Northern offence to victims and to my Unionist friends, but the Ireland Affairs Committee. I think that is appropriate, letters were essential building blocks to get the peace and I know a lot of people will appreciate the statement settlement to drag Northern Ireland away from the today.I also welcome the clarion certainty of the statement horror, evil and terror of the past. It would be very that this shameful episode is now over. Many people in dangerous and toxic somehow retrospectively to rescind Northern Ireland will welcome the fact that a line has those letters. I know the Secretary of State is not doing been drawn under this. that; she is simply confirming their legal status, or lack Last week at the Select Committee the Secretary of of it, but I caution people because the scheme was part State reiterated her appropriate and contrite apology of getting us from the horror of the past to the peace for this matter—indeed, that was echoed by the Labour and stability that we now enjoy. Front-Bench spokesman. In the Committee yesterday, however, the former chief of staff of the then Prime Mrs Villiers: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman Minister, Mr Jonathan Powell, refused to apologise. that my statement is consistent with how the scheme Does the Secretary of State agree that it would be was always intended to operate. It was intended to be a appropriate of the author of the scheme also to recognise scheme to establish whether an individual was wanted, that it was wrong and apologise? not to provide an amnesty or assurance to those who were wanted that they were not wanted. It was also Mrs Villiers: The hon. Gentleman has obviously taken clear from the Hallett report that John Downey should a close interest in this matter, and he is right to view never have received a letter. If the scheme had been today as drawing a line under it and reaching an end to properly administered, no such letter would have been what has been a painful episode for many people. On issued. It was that serious error that led to the result in the evidence given to NIAC by Jonathan Powell, I think the Downey case. it is a matter for him whether he chooses to apologise. On the legal effect of today’s announcement, as I As I said in relation to the scheme, although I would not have said, I do not believe that the words “rescind” or necessarily have done everything in the same way as the “revoke” are appropriate. It is much better to stick to previous Government, or necessarily agreed with their the fact that these letters should no longer be relied on, overall approach to OTRs, I recognise that they were and owing to the systemic flaws in the scheme, it might striving for a peaceful settlement in Northern Ireland, well be that further errors were made. Decisions on the and dealing with an extremely difficult situation and prosecution of recipients of letters will be taken in difficult judgments. exactly the same way as they are in relation to every other member of the public: if there is evidence or Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I thank the Secretary intelligence to justify arrest, that is what will happen. of State for her statement. At its start she mentioned that she discussed this issue with the various authorities Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD) rose— in Northern Ireland. At the Select Committee last week I asked whether she would consider asking those authorities Mr Speaker: I fear the hon. Gentleman toddled into to make a similar statement, so that we could be sure the Chamber slightly late, but I am in a generous mood. that the courts in Northern Ireland accept that this status is for the whole of the UK, not just the Secretary of State, given that she has no power over the courts in Stephen Lloyd: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I apologise Northern Ireland. Has she taken that on board and for being a couple of minutes late. ruled it out? I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement on the Hallett report. It certainly reassured me, and will reassure Mrs Villiers: I did give that suggestion some thought a lot of people in Northern Ireland, particularly because and I discussed it with David Ford. I continue to be of the report emphasises that any comfort that recipients the view that these statements were made by the UK would have taken from the letters is misguided. Does Government—largely by the Northern Ireland Office, she know how many people may not receive comfort and by No. 10 in a couple of instances—so it is for the and may be further investigated? UK Government to clarify their status. The key factor is that this is the Government’s statement of what the Mrs Villiers: The PSNI has told NIAC and the Policing letters now mean. In those circumstances I do not think Board that it is looking at all 187 “not wanted”indications. it is necessary for an additional statement to be published Lady Justice Hallett identified two cases in which she by the Department of Justice or the devolved authorities, believed a mistake had been made and highlighted a but, as I have told the House, they agree that this is the further 36 cases processed by the Operation Rapid team 785 Hallett Report9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Hallett Report 786 between February 2007 and November 2008 in which Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I commend she said there was a risk that an inappropriate threshold the Secretary of State for the clarity of her statement. might have been applied. There might therefore be at However, a line will finally be drawn under this grubby least 38 cases where there is reason to question the episode only when somebody who has received a letter original conclusions. It will be known whether that is is successfully prosecuted for a terrorist-related offence. the situation in further cases only once the PSNI completes Like me, would she be disappointed if there were not its investigations, but given the systemic failings, there such a successful prosecution? must be a risk that errors occurred in other cases as well. Mrs Villiers: These decisions are rightly matters for independent police and prosecuting authorities, and no Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The option is available to me that will give us 100% protection Secretary of State will be aware that some of the names against a successful abuse-of-process defence in the proposed for the scheme came from the Irish authorities. future. This is, however, the most effective and expeditious Given former Irish Justice Minister Michael McDowell’s way I can seek to remove potential barriers and reduce recent comment that the Irish Government were not the likelihood of another prosecution collapsing. pursuing those responsible for terrorist actions in their jurisdiction, what is her current understanding of that David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I welcome the Government’s position? Secretary of State’s statement, although the scheme should never have been implemented in the first place. Mrs Villiers: I have spoken to Charlie Flanagan, the Victims might take some comfort, however, from the Irish Foreign Minister, about this matter, and he has fact that not only existing but historical evidence can be given me the clearest assurances that there was no taken into consideration. However, does she agree that policy to refrain from prosecuting terrorist offences, even though the Hallett report said things were not that the statements and speculation were groundless done in secret, the evidence from all the senior police and that if there was evidence in the Irish justice system officers is that they were not informed about the letters to justify arrest and prosecution, that would happen. until the Downey case?

Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Mrs Villiers: Clearly, much of the distress caused to (Con): As my right hon. Friend knows, yesterday morning, victims was the result of the scheme not being transparent. Jonathan Powell, chief of staff to Tony Blair, gave People did not know it was happening and that has evidence to NIAC and confirmed—inadvertently or caused great distress and contributed to anxiety and advertently—that he might have perverted the course of misunderstanding about the scheme. It was clear that justice when in April 2000 he told Rita O’Hare, a the PSNI knew that indications were being given to leading republican politician, not to come to meetings OTRs about their status and it was pretty clear that the with British officials in Northern Ireland. Will she Royal Ulster Constabulary knew from the start that confirm that Rita O’Hare is still wanted by the PSNI indications were being given—though not necessarily for questioning over terrorist activities? how—but there was not enough clarity about how it was being done. A key problem identified by Lady Mrs Villiers: It would be inappropriate for me to Justice Hallett was that the PSNI did not see the text of comment on individual cases and I do not propose to the Northern Ireland Office letter until December 2011. do so. The lack of transparency created problems not only for the general public, who did not know what was going on, but internally by making errors in the scheme more Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): I thank the Secretary of likely. With hindsight, that aspect of the scheme should State for giving an oral statement, not a written statement, have been handled differently and it is regrettable that it on this important matter. was not dealt with more transparently. Will the Secretary of State put herself into the mind of one of these people who got a comfort letter and Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Secretary of State who has been very comforted for the past few years? If tells us that the letters are not rescinded, but that they they know that they did something appalling that is still are not to be relied upon. Should it arise that someone being investigated, would she advise them to leave the finds themselves in a court and seeks to rely on the letter jurisdiction of the United Kingdom? and on the case law, how confident is she that a court would not decide as it did in the Downey case? Does she Mrs Villiers: My advice to people who have received expect that, in that situation, evidence would again be letters is to read my statement with care and no longer given by former Secretaries of State and a former to take comfort from the letters they have received. I adviser to the Government which presents things in a emphasise, however, that today’s statement does not different light from that presented to the House today? mean that those who received “not wanted” letters are now suddenly wanted. It might be that after review of Mrs Villiers: As I have said, while doing everything their cases the conclusion turns out to be the same; that possible to reduce the risk that an abuse-of-process many of them are “not wanted”, and that there is no defence might succeed in future cases, today’s statement evidence to justify prosecution. It would be a mistake to cannot eliminate that risk. If a case were brought against assume that all the individuals processed by the scheme an OTR with a letter, it is certainly possible that they were terrorists—that has not been established—but it could seek to rely on that letter. What I am saying very has been established that mistakes were made in some clearly is that it is no longer safe to rely on those letters. cases, which is one reason that the letters should no What is more difficult to deal with is reliance that has longer be relied on. already taken place. That is certainly something that the 787 Hallett Report9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Hallett Report 788

[Mrs Villiers] circumstances it faces. We have confirmed that for the current spending review and for 2015-16. This, of course, courts can and will take into account, but I am confident is an important part of ensuring that the PSNI can do that this statement does everything possible to try to its job both in current policing and on legacy matters. ensure that an abuse-of-process defence does not succeed in the future. The Government are being completely Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Secretary clear that it is no longer safe to rely on the letters, and of State for the much improved statement and for the such reliance is obviously a key plank of an abuse-of-process Hallett report, which was very clear about the letters of defence, as it was a key plank of the Downey judgment. comfort. As the statement says, “the letter recipients should cease to place any reliance on those letters.” Will Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I thank the Secretary the Secretary of State confirm that those in other of State most sincerely for her statement and for the jurisdictions, such as the Republic of Ireland, should be strength of purpose with which she delivered it. I am made aware that if they cross the border into Northern curious—I am sure other right hon. and hon. Members Ireland or appear on a flight at Heathrow or elsewhere are, too—whether the Secretary of State has received in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern information from the police, or indeed the intelligence Ireland, they will be detained? Will she indicate the services, that would indicate that recipients of comfort exchange of information between the PSNI and the letters have already absconded again to the Republic of Garda Siochana in order to catch those responsible Ireland. If so, will that information be shared with the wherever they may be? newly established oversight board, including with the advisers who will be in attendance in a supervisory Mrs Villiers: I assure the hon. Gentleman that individuals capacity? coming from whatever part of the world will be treated on the basis of the evidence and the assessment if it Mrs Villiers: I am afraid that I do not feel it would be available today. If that evidence justifies arrest, that is appropriate to comment on individual cases or to share what will happen. The relationship between the PSNI that kind of information. I would emphasise, however, and the Garda Siochana is perhaps stronger than it has that the oversight board to which the hon. Lady has ever been; levels of co-operation deepen year by year. referred is looking at all matters relating to the OTR They work extremely well together on pursing offenders scheme. While entirely respecting the independence of either side of the border. I am sure that that will the police and prosecuting authorities, we are determined continue in respect of all individuals, regardless of to ensure that we do not make the same mistakes again whether they possess a letter under the scheme. and that all those who have a role or an interest in these matters are looking carefully at how we take forward Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): This is an important the Hallett recommendations. There will be a frank and and much needed statement, not least for its clarification full sharing of information within that policy board that those who have come to rely on the letters of between the police and the Northern Ireland Office. comfort should, in the Secretary of State’s words, “cease to derive” any such comfort, and that they will be in the Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I thank the same position as any other member of the public. In the Secretary of State for her clear statement today, in light of the breakdown of the all-party talks on mechanisms which she reiterated that the scheme was never a devolved to address the issues of the past, what additional support scheme. She has said in previous statements, too, that will the Secretary of State put in place to get that going this matter was never devolved to the Northern Ireland again? Assembly or to the Department of Justice. Will she therefore explain the justification for transferring the Mrs Villiers: I agree that it is absolutely vital that the financial burden of the review of the scheme and each parties get round the table again on flags, parading and of the cases to the devolved budgets, particularly given the past. There is so much to be gained in Northern that the PSNI is already facing considerable pressures Ireland from finding an agreed way forward. These on its finances? This was never a devolved scheme; it issues are hugely difficult, and every day they have the was never within any budget; no budget line has been potential to cause real gridlock and disruption to Assembly set aside for it—yet the costs are simply being passed on decision making. We all want the devolved institutions to the PSNI. Does the Secretary of State not agree that to succeed. They have a big programme of government she should have discussions with the Department of to deliver. They have achieved a lot, but unless they can Justice to resolve this matter in a much more fair and find a way to unblock the two issues of flags, parading equitable manner? and the past on the one hand, and welfare reform on the Mrs Villiers: I can assure the hon. Lady that I have other, their ability to deliver for their electorates will be had many discussions about their resources with the significantly impaired. I will continue to press all the Department of Justice and the PSNI, and indeed with parties to come together to find a deal and a way the Department of Finance and Personnel. It is a forward, as they have successfully done so often in the difficult situation; the hon. Lady raises a very good past. point about the allocation of responsibility for funding the ongoing work. The reality is that these are now Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): I matters for the criminal justice system, so it is within the apologise to you, Mr Speaker, to my right hon. Friend remit of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the the Secretary of State and to the House for not being PSNI. The lines between national security work and the present at the very beginning of the statement. rest of the criminal justice system are always blurred, Given that the situation regarding the letters has been which is why the Government have provided substantial clarified and that there is no longer a process to be additional funding to the PSNI to reflect the particular abused, would my right hon. Friend the Secretary of 789 Hallett Report 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 790

State consider talking to the relevant authorities in the Points of Order PSNI, the Metropolitan police and perhaps in the Garda about whether the case against Mr Downey could be re-opened? As she said in her statement, if the evidence 2.9 pm is sufficient to warrant prosecution, people will be Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): On a prosecuted, and it appears that the Metropolitan police point of order, Mr Speaker. An announcement was had evidence to pursue an allegation against Mr Downey. made earlier today that the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, Mrs Villiers: Once a stay of prosecution is granted, it wearing their hats as party leaders, are to go to Scotland is more or less impossible for it ever to be lifted. That tomorrow to spell out more details about further devolution means that I think it is inconceivable that Mr Downey of power to Scotland in the event of a no vote next could ever stand trial on a future occasion in relation to week. The Deputy Prime Minister was giving evidence the Hyde park bombing. It would, of course, be possible to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee for the police to look at other cases and other evidence earlier today and I asked him why the UK House of in relation to Mr Downey; there would be nothing to Commons was not going to be told first about the stop them doing so. details of further devolution so that Members could ask questions. There could, for example, be a Government statement on the issue at 7 o’clock this evening. The Deputy Prime Minister told me that the Government could not make such a statement, because of the rules of purdah. My point of order, Mr Speaker, is to ask whether it is correct, under the procedures of this House, that the rules of purdah prevent Ministers from making a statement to our House about proposals for further devolution for Scotland. If purdah is not a bar, and if the Government are genuinely keen to share this information with the House, would it possible for them to make a statement at 7 o’clock this evening?

Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. My understanding is that the convention of purdah during election and referendum campaigns is not a convention of a parliamentary character. There is nothing to prevent, or render illegitimate, the communication by a Minister of a view or intention to this House, and I therefore understand, having taken advice, that what the hon. Gentleman said about the possibility of a Government statement, either tonight or tomorrow, is correct. I am sure that there will be a warm glow on the countenance of the hon. Gentleman when he hears it said that he is correct.

Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. As both a former Leader of the House and a former Welsh Minister who led the referendum campaign in Wales in 1997, I can express some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s view. It seems to me paradoxical, to say the least, that Ministers, including the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, can make statements about the future of the United Kingdom outside the House, but cannot make such statements inside the House. As I understand it, the purdah applies to Government resources, and would prevent, for example, the sudden issue of a Government White Paper or a leaflet during the purdah period, but does not prevent the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s questions tomorrow, or the Deputy Prime Minister at any time, from making a statement to the House. I therefore strongly endorse your interpretation of the point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said, not least because, as he reminded the House, he has done so on the back of considerable experience of leading the House and, previously, of leadership responsibilities in Wales. My 791 Points of Order9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Points of Order 792

[Mr Speaker] circumstances it is quite common for the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) to represent understanding is his understanding, and it is also the the Government, and very common for the right hon. understanding of the hon. Member for Christchurch and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms (Mr Chope). In any case, in so far as purdah is an Harman) to represent the Opposition. The hon. Gentleman applicable concept in this regard, it applies to what is may disapprove of that state of affairs, but nothing said outside the House as well as what is said inside the disorderly has happened. House. There does seem to be a slightly paradoxical notion that it is okay to say something outside the Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) House, but not okay to say it inside the House. The (SNP): Further to the point of order, Mr Speaker. issue, it seems to me, is whether the basic convention is being adhered to or not: whether what is being said is a Mr Speaker: I do not think that the day would be proper thing to be said. If it is a proper thing to be said, complete without a point of order from the hon. it is perfectly proper for it to be said in this House. Gentleman.

Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Mr MacNeil: I am very grateful, Mr Speaker; thank Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. What we you very much. I wondered whether any of the procedures have learnt from the media is that significant new of the House can prevent Members—in this case, party powers for Scotland will be offered during a purdah leaders—from breaking the rules of purdah outside the period. I listened very carefully to your rulings in response House. to both the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), but it Mr Speaker: No. Nothing. seems to me that purdah will be broken, and that there Well, I think that the House is satisfied for the time is no excuse for the fact that the statement is being made being—or, at any rate, that the appetite for points of outside the House, because it is still being made. order has been satisfied. Can you tell us, Mr Speaker, whether this does indeed break purdah? Can you also tell us when you were first BILLS PRESENTED advised that the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition would not RECALL OF ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES be present for Prime Minister’s questions tomorrow, Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. what arrangements have been put in place, and why 57) they are fleeing—at such notice, and in such blind Zac Goldsmith, supported by Mr David Davis, Anne panic—to Scotland tomorrow? Marie Morris, Mr Andrew Mitchell, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nick de Bois, Mr Frank Field, Kate Hoey, Caroline Mr Speaker: I think that there are just two points for Lucas, Roger Williams, Jonathan Edwards and Mark me to make in response to the hon. Gentleman’s point Durkan, presented a Bill to make provision about the of order. First, although I have happily responded to recall of Members of the House of Commons; to allow points of order on the matter, it is important for me to for the extension of such provision to other offices; to emphasise—consistent with what I have said about provide that the recall of elected representatives in purdah not being a convention of a parliamentary Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland be a devolved character—that purdah is not a matter for the Chair. matter; and for connected purposes. The second point relates to a factual inquiry from the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on hon. Gentleman about when I heard that the Prime Friday 6 March 2015, and to be printed.(Bill 88). Minister and the Leader of the Opposition would not be here for Prime Minister’s questions tomorrow. I did AFFORDABLE HOUSING CONTRIBUTIONS receive an indication of that within, I think, the last (TEN UNIT THRESHOLD) hour— Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Tim Farron, supported by Annette Brooke, Sir Nick Pete Wishart: The last hour? Harvey, Jeremy Lefroy and John Woodcock, presented a Bill to give local planning authorities the power to Mr Speaker: I can only say to the hon. Gentleman, determine the requirements for affordable housing notwithstanding the expression of shock upon his contributions from sites of fewer than 10 units as part countenance, that absolutely nothing disorderly has of planning obligation agreements under Section 106 of taken place here. The hon. Gentleman is an experienced—I the Town and Country Planning Act 1990; and for will not say “old hand”, but he is an experienced hand. connected purposes. He knows that, periodically, Prime Minister’s questions Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on take place with the principals absent, and that in those Friday 6 March 2015, and to be printed.(Bill 90). 793 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Service Charges, Gratuities and Cover 794 Charges Service Charges, Gratuities and Cover a year. It has not been. There is strong evidence of Charges (Hospitality, Leisure and Service widespread abuse of the code and of many companies choosing to ignore it. Sectors) (Statutory Code) The Bill aims to do three things. First, it aims to set Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order out clear measures on the distribution of tips and No. 23) service charges, which are important in constituencies such as mine where the tourist trade is important. That is also true in the constituencies of my hon. Friends the 2.16 pm Members for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), who are here today, where Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I beg to there are many hospitality workers on the minimum move, wage. The Bill would secure a proper process for the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a code relating distribution of tips. I propose a model similar to the to service charges, gratuities and cover charges in the hospitality, tronc model that exists for national insurance liabilities. leisure and service sectors; and for connected purposes. Employees themselves will determine how tips and service The current position relating to tips, gratuities, service charges are distributed in the business: if kitchen and charges and cover charges is not clear or transparent for bar staff are to get a share, that will be decided by the consumers, and is also unfair to employees, who often employees. That is not happening at the moment. Where do not receive all the money that customers try to give troncs do exist, the policy is often determined by one them following their service. The Bill results from a person appointed by the management or business owner. number of examples that I have encountered in my We want a proper process in law that will allow employees constituency, where people working in the service sector to decide how tips will be distributed. have raised concerns about whether or not their employers Similarly, many businesses argue that there is an are passing on tips and service charges, but also from administration fee involved in collecting tips, particularly what has been said in some of the national media, and, via credit cards. The Bill aims to set a maximum at of course, from my own conversations in restaurants which that percentage could be charged. Personally, I and hotels with those who work in them. believe that there should be no percentage taken by the Consumers often do not know whether charges on a employer, but there is a view among some that they bill are mandatory or discretionary. They often have no incur a cost in collection. Therefore, I would seek idea of how much, if anything, the employee will actually consultation on that matter. However, the Bill would receive. There is no requirement in law for service provide a power to set the maximum percentage that charges or tips to be distributed to employees, and there can be taken by the employer. is far too much confusion over the whole matter. Customers There are plenty of good examples out there—Pizza often feel that there is more of a chance that the Hut, TGI Friday’s, Harvester, All Bar One and Toby employee will receive the tip if it is made in cash rather Carvery, distribute 100% of tips to employees. Other than with a credit card, but that varies from business to national chains have not done that, including PizzaExpress, business. That, too, proves that there is a lack of which sacked a waiter who revealed that it took an 8% transparency in the matter. admin fee, and Bella Italia, which took 10%. There are Following pressure from the hon. Member for Linlithgow examples of businesses taking even more. In the more and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty)—who, sadly, is extreme cases, businesses are collecting tips but not not here today; I assume that he is in Scotland trying to distributing them to workers at all. save our beloved Union—the last Government did The final element of the Bill would require the business implement changes by introducing a voluntary best-practice to display its policy on tips and service charges so that code in 2009, and also outlawing the previous arrangement the consumer is aware of exactly where the tip or service whereby tips could be used to top up the minimum charge they pay will go and how it will be distributed. wage, which, of course, was different in this particular My local radio station, BBC Radio Humberside—I will sector. give them a shout-out, thereby guaranteeing I will get The new code of best practice acknowledged four key on air again—did a vox pop on the issue this morning principles, and asked businesses to agree to them when with the, I am sure you will agree Mr Speaker, sound they signed up to it. Those principles were that businesses people of Brigg. When asked their view on the issue, should display, prior to point of purchase, their policy 100% agreed that tips should be distributed to the relating to mandatory and discretionary service charges people they expected them to be distributed to—the and tips; that businesses should have a process to deal workers in a business. with requests for information on how service charges, Conservatives are often challenged on whether proposing tips, gratuities and cover charges were dealt with and new regulation is something we should be doing. It is shared out; that businesses should ensure that workers not an un-Conservative principle to pass legislation that were able to explain the policy, and were confident protects the consumer and employees and benefits about doing so; and that workers should be fully informed employers. Under the Bill, a consumer who pays a tip or about how service charges, tips, gratuities and so forth service charge will know where it is going, which is a key were distributed, and how deductions were made. principle. When asked, most consumers have no idea The code was supposed to promote transparency, how tips are distributed. The Bill will protect employees, which is beneficial not only to employees but to employers many of whom are on the minimum wage. They can and consumers. A research poll by Gallup found that work at one restaurant one week and receive 100% of engaged employees generate 43% more revenue and are the tips and then go to another and receive none of the 87% less likely to leave the business than disengaged tips because there is no requirement for them to be employees. The code was supposed to be reviewed after distributed. For many people, particularly in constituencies 795 Service Charges, Gratuities and Cover 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 796 Charges [Andrew Percy] Business of the House such as mine, where wages are generally low and there are minimum wage jobs, the measure will provide a way 2.27 pm to top up their incomes. It is not right for employers to The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom be able to cream off a percentage of that. Brake): I beg to move, The Bill will be good for employers in a number of That at today’s sitting: ways. Someone asked me the other day whether employers (1) the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of rely on that percentage to help their business. I am proceedings on the Motions in the name of Secretary Patrick sorry, but employers’ profit margins should be built into McLouglin relating to the High Speed Rail (London - West the cost of the product, service or food that people are Midlands) Bill not later than two hours after the commencement buying. A business should not exist because it is able to of proceedings on the Motion for this Order; such Questions shall cream off service charges or tips. If there is a cost in that include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker regard, there is an argument to be made in a consultation which may then be moved; the Questions may be put after the on the maximum amount that businesses should take. moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply; and The Bill will also benefit employers in a different way (2) notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 20 because it will hopefully result in staff being more (Time for taking private business), the Private Business set down engaged. The Institute of Customer Service provided by the Chairman of Ways and Means may be entered upon at any me with some interesting statistics from its research on hour, and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, for three the issue. It found, as I said earlier, that engaged employees hours, after which the Speaker shall interrupt the business; the deliver 43% more revenue, 87% are less likely to leave business may be entered upon after the moment of interruption; and 67% would advocate for their company. When and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. employees considered themselves to be disengaged from Last Thursday, during the business statement, the their employer, only 3% said that they would advocate Leader of the House announced that the House would for them. The Bill will therefore be good for businesses, today consider motions relating to the High Speed Rail consumers and protect employees’ rights. (London-West Midlands) Bill, a motion to approve the I have been able to secure cross-party support for the draft Legislative Reform (Clinical Commissioning Groups) Bill. I am pleased to see the hon. Member for Scunthorpe Order 2014, and then opposed private business. The (Nic Dakin) in the Chamber, a near neighbour who business motion before the House helps to control these supports the Bill. I hope that the House will give me proceedings today. leave to bring in the Bill. The effect of passing the motion would be to allow Question put and agreed to. two hours for the debate on both of the high speed rail Bill motions, which would be debated together. The Ordered, clinical commissioning groups order motion is not included That Andrew Percy, Henry Smith, Diana Johnson, within the terms of the business motion as that motion Andrew Stephenson, Nic Dakin, Mr Graham Stuart, will be subject to 90 minutes’ debate under Standing Martin Vickers and Guto Bebb present the Bill. Orders. The business motion then allows up to three Andrew Percy accordingly presented the Bill. hours’ debate on the opposed private business, as well Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on as allowing that business to start at any time. Friday 17 October and to be printed (Bill 89). The motions relating to the high speed rail Bill have been on remaining orders since last Tuesday. The first amends the carry-over motion agreed by the House in April relating to the application of the electronic deposit of documents in this Session. The second is an instruction to the Select Committee considering the Bill to give it powers to consider amendments to accommodate the requirements of certain landowners and occupiers, utility undertakers and changes to the design of the works authorised in the Bill, as specified in the motion. Two hours would seem adequate to discuss these very specific procedural motions relating to the Bill. The business of the House motion also allows the opposed private business to be proceeded with at any hour and to last for three hours. I hope the House will agree that the business motion facilitates the business of the House in a sensible way and I commend the motion to the House.

Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): I thank the Deputy Leader of the House for that explanation of the business today? I am very grateful that he has explained why we have the business of the House in this order, but may I just say to him how grateful I am because today not only do I have an interest in HS2, but of course I have an interest in the opposed private business, which covers Buckinghamshire 797 Business of the House 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 798 and the film industry in Buckinghamshire. Therefore, I High Speed Rail (London – West am very grateful for the reordering of the business Midlands) Bill today which enables me to cover both debates in one sitting? [Relevant documents: Ninth Report from the Transport Committee, Session 2013-14, High speed rail: on track?, Mr Speaker: It is truly joyous for the House to see the HC 851, and the Government response, HC 1085 Tenth right hon. Lady in such a happy frame of mind. May it Report from the Transport Committee, Session 2010-12, long continue. High Speed Rail, HC 1185, and the Government response, HC 1754.] Question put and agreed to. Mr Speaker: Motions 3 and 4 on high-speed rail will be debated together.

2.30 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill): I beg to move, That the Order of 29 April 2014 (High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill (Carryover)) be varied as follows: After paragraph 10 of the Order insert– “10A. The Order of the House of 26 June 2013 relating to electronic deposit of documents shall apply in respect of a Bill presented as mentioned in paragraph 2 or 4 as in respect of the High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill read for the first time in the current Session.”

Mr Speaker: With this, we will take the following: That it be a further Instruction to the Select Committee to which the High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill is committed– (1) that the Select Committee have power to consider– (a) amendments to accommodate the requirements of landowners and occupiers in: (i) the parishes of the Little Missenden, Great Missenden, Wendover, Stoke Mandeville, Stone with Bishopstone and Hartwell, Quainton, Preston Bissett and Turweston in the County of Buckinghamshire, (ii) the parish of Finmere in the County of Oxfordshire, (iii) the parish of Chipping Warden and Edgcote in the County of Northamptonshire, (iv) the parish of Little Packington in the County of Warwickshire, (v) the parish of Berkswell in the Metropolitan Borough of Solihull, and (vi) the City of Birmingham; (b) amendments to accommodate changes to the design of the works authorised by the Bill in: (i) the parishes of Stone with Bishopstone and Hartwell, Fleet Marston, Steeple Claydon and Twyford in the County of Buckinghamshire, (ii) the parish of Mixbury in the County of Oxfordshire, (iii) the parishes of Culworth and Whitfield in the County of Northamptonshire, (iv) the parishes of Radbourne, Southam, Stoneleigh and Curdworth in the County of Warwickshire, and (v) the City of Birmingham; (c) amendments to accommodate the requirements of utility undertakers in: (i) the parishes of Denham, Wendover, Ellesborough, Stone with Bishopstone and Hartwell, Quainton and Grendon Underwood and the town of Aylesbury in the County of Buckinghamshire, (ii) the parishes of Offchurch, Burton Green, Little Packington, Coleshill, Curdworth, Wishaw and Moxhull and Middleton in the County of Warwickshire, (iii) the parishes of Drayton Bassett, Hints with Canwell, Weeford, Swinfen and Packington, Fradley and Streethay, Longdon, Kings Bromley and Lichfield in the County of Staffordshire, and 799 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 800 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill [Mr Speaker] provision. Additional land is also included around some electricity pylons where National Grid’s requirements (iv) the parish of Bickenhill in the Metropolitan Borough of have been refined. Solihull, and amendments for connected purposes; These changes, in total, will not increase the overall (2) that any petition against amendments to the Bill which the project budget or target price for phase 1. Indeed, they Select Committee is empowered to make shall be referred to the are expected to cost slightly less than our original Select Committee if– proposals. The estimate of expense for this additional (a) the petition is presented by being deposited in the Private provision, which will be published if this motion passes, Bill Office not later than the end of the period of four weeks sets out the total cost of these works at around £965,000. beginning with the day on which the first newspaper notice of the However, due to the prescriptive nature of this process, amendments was published, and it does not set out the net position, which is, as I have (b) the petition is one in which the petitioners pray to be heard already said, a slight saving. by themselves or through counsel or agents. The first motion being debated today instructs the That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House. Committee to consider these amendments, and to hear We are here to debate the merits of two motions: one petitions against them. It is important to note that the instructing the HS2 Select Committee to consider 55 minor motion does not agree that these changes should be amendments to the Bill and to hear petitions against made; it just agrees that the Committee be allowed to them, should there be any; the other to allow the consider them. documents relating to this additional provision and any Subject to the approval of this motion, the additional other in the future to be deposited in electronic format. provision and a supplementary environmental statement describing the likely significant environmental effects of Before I deal with the merits of the motions, let me the amendments will be deposited in Parliament, and in put them in context. The House will recall that in April local authority offices and libraries in those locations it agreed, by a large majority, to give the hybrid Bill for affected by the changes. Following deposit of these phase 1 of High Speed 2 a Second Reading. The Bill documents, a public consultation on the supplementary provides the necessary powers to allow the construction environmental statement will commence, which will and operation of phase 1 between London and the west close on 14 November. This consultation is 56 days midlands. long, in line with the approach taken for the main On Second Reading, the House agreed the principle environmental statement and in excess of the minimum of the Bill, which is that there should be a high-speed requirements in Standing Orders. As with the main railway that will run between Euston and the west coast environmental statement consultation, the responses to main line in Handsacre in Staffordshire, with a spur to the consultation will be analysed by Parliament’s Curzon Street in Birmingham. There will be intermediate independent assessor and the assessor’s report will be stations at Old Oak Common and Birmingham tabled in the House ahead of Third Reading. Interchange, located near the NEC and Birmingham There will also be a petitioning period for those international airport. directly and specially affected by these changes to submit Following Second Reading, the Bill, as it is a hybrid, petitions against them. This petitioning period will begin was remitted to a specially appointed Select Committee. on Friday 19 September and end on 17 October for all This Committee, under the chairmanship of my hon. petitioners. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms), is tasked with considering the petitions lodged against the Bill by Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): The those directly and specially affected by it, a task which it people now petitioning have already petitioned and has already started with commendable diligence and paid their £20. Will they be able to petition without good judgment, for which I thank it. Indeed, it is paying a further £20? continuing its work in Committee Room 5 today. In parallel with this, and as a key part of the process, Mr Goodwill: Yes, they certainly will. Indeed, this is a HS2 Ltd has been engaging further with those petitioners “buy one, get one free” offer from this Government and in order better to understand their concerns and determine I can reassure those who are affected and wish to whether these can be addressed without the need for petition that there will be that provision for a free them to appear before the Committee. This has proved opportunity. successful with a number of petitioners, including Newspaper notices will be published in national and Birmingham city council and Centro. As a result of local newspapers over the next two weeks, alerting the some of those discussions and further developments in public to these changes and the opportunity to feed into the design for the railway, we have identified the need to the process by petitioning or responding to the consultation, make 55 minor amendments to the Bill as originally as appropriate. deposited. The second motion before us confirms that the The motion before the House sets out their broad permission given by the House in July last year to location but, despite their minor nature, I think it would deposit environmental and other information in relation be useful to explain them in a little more detail. They to this Bill in electronic format applies to additional are mainly changes to access tracks required to construct provisions as well. Electronic deposit of the Bill and or maintain the railway and refinements to National related environmental information was an innovation Grid’s requirements for electricity wire diversions. For welcomed by the public, as well as avoiding the need example, where a farmer has suggested that it would be and cost of printing documents, a single set of which better to route an access track over this field rather than weighed 1.5 tonnes. I believe that it is only sensible that that field, that change is included in this additional the same approach be taken for this additional provision 801 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 802 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill and any subsequent ones that might come forward, alignments were built to serve Victorian service patterns, although I hasten to add this will not be such a weighty and many of our civil structures date back to the 19th document. century. As with the Bill deposit, the motion is permissive. It The west coast main line, the vital rail artery connecting allows those locations where documents are to be deposited the north-west, the west midlands and London, is to choose whether they would like documents in electronic approaching the limits of its capacity. As many hon. form only or also in hard copy. Many local authorities Members will know, there are also growing capacity affected by these amendments have already indicated constraints on the east coast and midland main lines. their preference for electronic format. A similar motion This is no theoretical challenge. Our lack of capacity to this has already been endorsed in the other place. means that it is increasingly difficult to run more inter-city, I hope that the House will agree that these are two freight and commuter services. very sensible motions to demonstrate the progress that Network Rail is being asked to deliver substantial this Government are making in transforming the country’s investment over the next five years, but Railtrack’s infrastructure and economic geography.It also demonstrates legacy on the west coast main line is a powerful warning that we are doing this in the right way, listening to the against relying on incremental upgrades. De-scoped, concerns of those affected and, where possible, making over-budget and over-time, the west coast modernisation changes to reduce impacts. I commend these motions to project cost the taxpayer £9 billion pounds and delivered the House. only a fraction of the capacity we need, and, just a few years after completion, that extra capacity has been exhausted. I know from speaking to the local authorities 2.38 pm and hon. Members whose constituencies are on the route that they never wish to relive that experience. Of Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Before course we support electrification programmes and other I move on to the detail of the motions before us, may I route improvements, but after the Norton Bridge area welcome the Minister back to his place? I know it has works are completed, the options for upgrading the been a particularly busy couple of weeks in the Department west coast main line further will be limited. for Transport, especially as Ministers from both parties A new approach is needed. The last Government race to catch up with Labour’s rail policies. First, we developed the initial proposals for HS2, but after the learned in The Times that the Liberal Democrats now election, some of the project’s momentum was sadly apparently support a public sector operator, even though lost. Labour rightly drew attention to the project’s they have rushed through the privatisation of East Coast rising costs, and we went so far as to change the law to trains in this Parliament. Then we heard the Chancellor ensure better value for taxpayers’ money, through an say that rail fares would be capped at the retail prices amendment that stood in my name and that of my hon. index in January, just three weeks after the Transport Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). Indeed, Secretary said that the policy would result in Baroness Kramer has described the changes, in another “more debt than our children and grandchildren could ever hope place, as putting in place to repay.” “a very vigorous reporting process under which the Government Last year, the Chancellor waited until Christmas to say must report back annually and record any deviation from budget, there would be a freeze. This year, the very next day he and the consequences of that…which has put in place a very took it away. Evening rail fares rose yesterday in the intense scrutiny process around the budget.”—[Official Report, north by up to 162%— House of Lords, 19 November 2013; Vol. 749, c. 949.] Since his appointment, David Higgins has taken great Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): strides to restore confidence in the project, and we Order. I have to say to the hon. Lady that one quip or welcome the renewed focus on connectivity and integration joke is fine, but we are discussing motion No. 3 on the with the existing transport network, especially for phase 2 Order Paper and this is not a general debate. I therefore of the project. Of course there can be no room for fear she might have to save her humour for another complacency on costs. The phase 1 route of HS2 is debate, and return to the motion please. currently being subjected to very close scrutiny, and it is inevitable that some changes will be made, both through the petitioning process and through agreements made Lilian Greenwood: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. directly with HS2 Ltd. The Minister estimated that I am sorry not to be able to continue to amuse the those additional provisions would lead to a net saving, House. although he did not specify its exact level. Will he give I am sure that while the Chancellor was busy with all us an estimate of the cost implications of the alterations his whatnots, Ministers were busy preparing these changes announced today, and the net saving involved? I would to the High-Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill be happy to take an intervention from him on this this weekend so that it could be considered by the Bill point. Committee following the vote today. In April, the House endorsed the principle of building a new high-speed rail Mr Goodwill: I can tell the hon. Lady that it is a small line from London to Birmingham. The case for introducing net saving; I am sure that the shadow Chancellor will more capacity is clear. Passenger numbers have doubled not be able to spend it on all his uncosted pet projects. over the past 20 years; the railways are carrying the same number of passengers as they did in the 1920s on Lilian Greenwood: It’s a laugh a minute today. The a network that is now half the size. Anyone who believes net saving is of course welcome. Will he also tell us, in encouraging the use of rail freight, in supporting when he responds to the debate, when we can expect the modal shift and in tackling road congestion should first report on HS2’s initial expenditure, under the want to see that growth continue. However, most of our terms of the preparation Act? 803 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 804 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill [Lilian Greenwood] impacts such as those on transport can be considered in the round. I remind the House that the changes being There are two motions before us today: the carry-over debated today were communicated to landowners and motion and the instruction motion to the Select Committee. to others who might be affected, including Members of The hybrid Bill is reckoned to be the longest piece of Parliament, back in May. legislation ever produced, once the environmental statement is included. When the new documents published today Lilian Greenwood: I thank the Minister for that response, are included, it will have broken its own record. It is particularly in relation to Euston. therefore right that the provisions for the electronic It is to be hoped that we will see confirmation before depositing of Bill documents should continue, although the election that the additional provisions mechanism there should also continue to be a number of specified can be used to resolve some of the long-standing mitigation sites where residents can consult physical copies. issues in Euston. We do not object to the principle of The instruction motion requires the Committee to making changes to the Bill in this manner. After all, consider a number of alterations to the route, which Parliament has already voted to remove the unsatisfactory take the form of additional provisions. The additional link to HS1 that was included in the original wording of provisions published by the Department cover a range the Bill. It is likely that further refinements will be made of recommendations, from the location of balancing as the Bill progresses through Parliament. However, it is ponds and the preservation of public rights of way to important that these changes are seen not as a final the maintenance of golf course car parks. They mainly draft but rather as proposals that must be subjected to affect the constituencies of Government Members and full scrutiny and a proper consultation period. When I shall do my best to finish my speech in a timely there are objections—as there might be, given the changes fashion, because I know that a number of hon. Members to land requirements set out in the additional provisions— wish to speak. those petitioners must be heard on the same basis as It must be noted, however, that these provisions cover those who have already started to appear before the Bill the end of phase 1 in Lichfield and Birmingham Curzon Committee. I look forward to further improvements to Street to Hillingdon, but no further. I am mindful of the scheme. the many contributions made in the House by London HS2 is the right project, and it can be improved colleagues, especially those of my right hon. Friend the further. On 1 October, we will mark the 50th anniversary Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), of the first Shinkansen service. The date is perhaps who I note is in his place today. It is vital that, when unlikely to be celebrated in this country, except in future additional provisions are brought forward, those specialist publications, but it will be a rather sobering areas should be given at least equal consideration to the reminder that high-speed trains were running abroad local authorities affected by the proposals. when many parts of the UK were still reliant on steam locomotives. High-speed rail is a proven technology, Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): As a London and it has been proven in this country. I recently saw for MP who is majorly affected by HS2, I echo what my myself the benefits that HS1 has helped to bring to hon. Friend has just said. I wish that the Minister had Kent, including the greatly improved journey times and mentioned London in his speech. I know that it is not the connections that allow fast services to radiate out the subject of the motions, but will he look again at the from the core high-speed line. HS2 must similarly be subject of the compensation for London being adequate fully integrated with the existing network, and that issue and commensurate with that being given to the rest of that will no doubt be revisited in David Higgins’s upcoming the country? I have just had details of a brand-new part report. of the rail link dumped on me today, as an afterthought, HS2 should also be seen as an opportunity for utilising in the form of a letter. If there are to be significant the skills gained through the Crossrail project, for training changes, proper notice must be given to Members of a new generation of highly skilled construction engineers Parliament and residents, and a full consultation must and railway operators and for supporting the 120,000 be carried out. That is not happening at the moment. jobs in the UK’s supply chain. To that end, we want to see a copy of the Government’s long-promised jobs and Lilian Greenwood: My hon. Friend speaks on behalf skills strategy for HS2. of his constituents, who will be particularly affected by the proposals for Old Oak Common. Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con): The hon. Lady In the area around Euston station in particular, is making an extremely interesting speech. She called considerable uncertainty has been caused by revisions for HS2 to be part of an integrated system with the to the designs for HS2’s London terminus. Three times existing conventional railway line. Will she elaborate a now, alternative plans for Euston have been presented. little on how she sees that being possible? Local residents deserve better. Lilian Greenwood: I thank the— Mr Goodwill: I should like to reassure the hon. Lady. I had lunch with the right hon. Member for Holborn Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) the other day and saw Order. Not on this motion. Perhaps the right hon. some of the issues at first hand. Indeed, I think we got a Gentleman would like to have a conversation with the freebie from the restaurateur; we should find out whether hon. Lady outside the Chamber, but she will talk only we need to declare it. Similar changes are being progressed about motion No. 3 from the Dispatch Box, please. in the London area, and they will be brought forward when other changes in London, such as the HS1 link Lilian Greenwood: I will take your direction, Madam removal, are ready to be brought forward, so that Deputy Speaker. 805 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 806 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill Overall, we want the railways to support regional As the Minister knows, several of the changes require a development, connect isolated communities and help permanent acquisition of land to provide services or deliver the balanced economic growth that this country access for HS2. needs. We want to build 21st-century infrastructure in the midlands and the north, not just in London and the Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I south-east, and we will continue to support HS2 as the am grateful to the right hon. Lady for giving way, and necessary legislation, including these motions, progresses she is always generous with her time. This is a poor through Parliament. show, because this debate was in the business statement announced to the House on Thursday afternoon. Will 2.50 pm she name her Conservative colleagues who cannot be bothered to turn up to represent their constituents? Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): I welcome the Minister’s opening statement on these Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman mistakes what I motions, but may I issue a word of warning? When I mean. Several Members of this House who serve as hear a politician say, “Buy one, get one free”, the other Ministers or in other positions of responsibility are phrase that comes to mind is, “Always beware of politicians unable to express, directly on the Floor of the House, bearing gifts”. Innocuous though this matter seems, I the views of their constituents. I am sometimes permitted am not sure that the Minister can get away without to make points on their behalf and at their request, answering a few questions. I have no intention of dividing which is usually the way we accommodate such matters, the House as this is a technical matter referring changes as he knows. to the Select Committee, so for those who are in any doubt may I say that I do not intend to cause too much Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): At the moment, of a fuss but I do intend to comment? my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher We find ourselves back in this Chamber once again Pincher), for example, is in Committee discussing the with the Government asking colleagues to vote on Modern Slavery Bill, where there might be votes. I know matters relating to HS2. I recall that the previous time that he would otherwise very much wish to be here for the Government asked MPs to vote on this project, we the debate. did so in the absence of the Major Projects Authority report, which identifies the risks of the project. That is Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend makes a very valid point. still unavailable to MPs and to the very Select Committee The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham to which the new changes are being referred. I reiterate Stringer) knows that he was a little naughty with his that it is not fair to ask the Select Committee to evaluate intervention. He was trying to make people look bad, the changes, or any of the other proposals being made and this is not a time to do that. I can honestly say that by HS2 Ltd, in the absence of the full MPA set of all my colleagues, on both sides of the House, are reports identifying the risks we are taking with this fighting the corner for our constituents and trying to project. put their point across. The sort of point the hon. I was surprised that more detail was not available on Gentleman makes is not particularly welcome. the changes before we arrived in this place. The Minister was good enough to send me details of the one change Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Will my that affects my constituency. However, 20 out of the right hon. Friend emphasise that not just constituents 55 changes affect Buckinghamshire, and issuing the list who live on the proposed line of route but almost all I had sent to me at 1.30 pm today does not give constituents, including mine, are concerned about the colleagues, particularly those who are not able to make enormous bill to the British taxpayer, to which they will representations in the same way as I am, an opportunity have to contribute if this Bill goes through? to study the detailed changes. Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Mr Goodwill: My right hon. Friend will recall that the costs of the project are a matter of concern right across Secretary of State wrote to her on 2 May with details of the board and to all Members. Hon. Members ought to the change in her constituency, and other right hon. and bear in mind that today the Minister has brought savings hon. Members, both Government and Opposition, were to the Dispatch Box—[Interruption.] He indicates to contacted in the same way. me that they are minute savings, but we know that size is not everything—savings are important. I hope that will Mrs Gillan: I am glad to have the Minister’s reassurance; go some way to showing that Ministers’ eyes are open at that is not exactly how I understood it from my colleagues, least to looking at cost savings ideas. I hope that they but I will take his word for it. Having looked at the list, I will be open to looking at other savings, not just monetary find that I have one minor change in my constituency, ones. which accommodates a footpath change at the request of my local landowner Mr Lund. I hope it accommodates Mr Goodwill: May I point out that there is not only a his request in full, and I repeat that I was grateful to the small saving but considerable improvement for my right Minister for providing details to me. However, I am not hon. Friend’s constituent Mr Lund? Although I would sure that details of the changes in other parts of not go so far as to say he is pleased to see the change, it Buckinghamshire have been communicated to my is certainly an improvement on what was there before. colleagues, because when I spoke to people in their May I remind the House that although we wrote in May offices I was told that the details that were made available to Members with details of the changes in their in the list that arrived in my office at 1.30 pm had not constituencies, we sent them an additional copy of the been made available to Members or their staff, so no letter this morning, in case they had missed the earlier comments on the changes could be fed into the debate. one? We have also tabled documents before the House 807 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 808 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill [Mr Goodwill] Mr Chope: My right hon. Friend makes an important point. Will she confirm that it is a matter of regret that so that any other right hon. or hon. Member who there is no agreement on the costs between HS2 and the wishes to look at the detailed changes, on moving promoters of the extended tunnel? Surely it should be electricity pylons, rights of way and so on, can see what possible for rational engineers, albeit from different is before the House today. Nobody can be in any doubt sides of the argument, to reach a conclusion over the about what we are discussing today. additional costs of a tunnel.

Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the Minister for that. It Mrs Gillan: I think that engineers are talking to was good of him to send the letter that he said was sent engineers. With the help of the Department, I have to me on 2 May. In his original letter to me he said it certainly facilitated meetings at which the tunnel has was sent on 1 May and we were looking in the wrong been discussed. The problem is that we do not have place, although I still have no record in my office of access to the costings prepared by HS2 Ltd, so we having received the letter on 2 May. That is just a small cannot make any comparisons. The truth of the matter point of no real importance; this was just poor staff is that we can make savings in time and money by work. reducing the need for those 550 petitions and we can I would like to know when the map books are going save an area of outstanding natural beauty. If we can to be available—I believe 17 are affected—showing the protect other areas of the country by kicking up a fuss, changes, with the list of affected owners. I understand we should protect the one that is nearest to our capital that they are not yet available, so will the Minister city and the one that is so fragile that it would be confirm when they will be published? When exactly will irreparably damaged if this scheme were to go ahead as the notices and the newspaper advertisements be placed? currently envisaged. I am willing to give way to allow him to answer that. The office of the right hon. Member for Buckingham (John Bercow) is also concerned that uncertainty still Mr Goodwill: They will be available on Wednesday— exists for its constituents. During the last petitioning tomorrow. period, it came to light that some people who were affected by the proposal had heard nothing from HS2 Mrs Gillan: If they are available on Wednesday, that Ltd. They heard about their properties being affected raises the question of why they could not have been only by word of mouth from neighbours. All of us in available in time for this debate. The Minister is obviously this House wish to hear that such behaviour will not be not going to allow us to have the detail until after this repeated in this or any future case. debate, and we have to put up with that. Following this debate, there will be a consultation on the environmental statement for the additional provisions Mr Goodwill: The purpose of today’s motion is to running from 19 September to 14 November. However, facilitate the depositing of the maps. That is why we are the petitioning period for those who are affected runs doing so on the first possible opportunity, should we get only until 17 October. If 56 days have been allocated to the consent of the House today, which is tomorrow. look at the environmental impacts, people whose land is affected should not be disadvantaged and expected to Mrs Gillan: I am grateful for the Minister’s clarification, respond with a petition in a shorter time frame. Will the but it would have been helpful if the map books had Minister consider extending that petitioning period to been available to Members before the debate. the same closing date as the consultation on the environmental provisions? My right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) was also concerned that he had not yet Let me put this matter in context. This project has been given details of the proposals. Let me make a small been going for nearly five years, and because of errors point. It is hard for Members of Parliament to allay and omissions by HS2 and the Department there have people’s fears or make the relevant representations if we been so many consultations and so many changes to do not have the details at the earliest opportunity. I am periods of consultations that the closing dates and sure that some of the proposed changes will be welcomed—I timetables continue to confuse people. It would be a certainly hope so. Sadly, the only change that my good idea if we had just one date for the additional constituents want is the adoption of a longer tunnel provisions. I hope that the Minister will give that thought under the area of outstanding natural beauty. That some consideration. would save the violation of our so-called protected What assessment has the Minister made of today’s environment and the Committee Members to whom motions and their compliance with key aspects of European these changes are being committed some 550 petition environmental legislation, specifically the habitats directive hearings, which have been lined up because of the lack and the environmental impact assessment directive, and of support for the long tunnel so far. the UK’s obligations under the Aarhus convention? As Like the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras I understand it, the EIA directive requires the entire (Frank Dobson), I am willing to offer the Minister a environmental effects of a project to be measured and freebie lunch in Chesham and Amersham if he visits to consulted on rather than it being done in individual look at the environment, the countryside and the grief stages through salami slicing. Perhaps the Minister will that would be saved if the longer tunnel, which I understand address that in his response. is being considered by the Department, is accepted. I I said that I have no intention of dividing the House know that it is currently being studied by the engineering on this issue as it deals merely with changes to the teams at HS2, and I hope that the Minister will confirm process for scrutinising the project, but I must again that any future changes from HS2 Ltd, which he mentioned make the point that this project as proposed is deeply in his letter of 28 August, will include the tunnel extension. unpopular not just with my constituents but with many 809 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 810 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill others who, like me, do not think that the business case, Michael Fabricant: Following the point that the right the route and the lack of connectivity to other transport hon. Gentleman has just made, does a blank cheque hubs justify the vast expenditure. come to mind?

Michael Fabricant: May I say how much I agree with Frank Dobson: Pretty much, yes, although I am opposed the point that my right hon. Friend has made? Is she to the daft £20 billion cheque in the first place, and have aware that if HS2 were to follow the route that we been all along. supported as the party in opposition, there would be What bothers me, besides the famous “connected less environmental damage and we would save £4 billion purposes” let out, is that we are also told: to £8 billion in costs? “That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.” According to HS2, the changes we are considering—or Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend has long supported the not really considering—this afternoon are minor, and other route. Before the election, it was the other route we are placing this procedure within the Standing Orders that was on the drawing board. Something happened of the House so that we have a sort of modern precedent when the coalition came into power that changed the for the Clerks to rely on if challenged. What concerns original understanding that we all had. The Government me is that the proposals that will eventually be made for still have time to look at this in a different way, and I the Euston part of my constituency cannot be considered urge them to start this project in the north and connect as minor by anyone on earth. our great northern cities and then revisit these plans to make better connections to Heathrow and the channel tunnel and of course to provide the extra tunnelling, Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): On the right should it still apply, that would protect the environment hon. Gentleman’s point about minor design changes, in the Chilterns to the highest standards. the same term is used in a letter written to me by the Department on 2 May. It cites three “minor changes”, I am afraid that, after five years, feelings still run which are in fact significant land acquisitions—at a really high in my constituency. This week, the National Grid sub-station; in the diversion of the Buckinghamshire Examiner says that HS2 will cost the Kenilworth greenway; and through provision of additional Chilterns £170 million. Chiltern district council has car parking at the national motorcycle museum. There done a study of what the costs of this project will be to is no indication in that letter of how compensation my local economy in my constituency. I hope the Minister schemes would affect those lands, which are significantly will understand the damage that will be done to the outside the present qualifying area. Like him, I think Chilterns and that he will consider my words yet again. that some of these minor changes seem quite significant to the landowners. 3.7 pm Frank Dobson: The right hon. Lady’s point simply Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): The emphasises how the detail is important. With Euston, debate this afternoon strikes me as rather strange, as we however, it is not a matter of detail. The current proposal are being asked to give the existing Select Committee that the House voted through has been abandoned. In power to consider amendments that we have not seen, fact, it was abandoned before the House voted it through. which is fairly unusual in the House of Commons. If we The situation is utterly crazy. The proposition included are asked to agree to some amendment, we have usually in the Bill was basically to build a rather elegant lean-to had the opportunity to read and digest them and possibly engine shed at the west side of the existing Euston to consult other people about them. The environmental station, so most of the concern and the emphasis and statements are apparently ready but will not be issued the source of petitions have been from people, homes until tomorrow, leaving us to proceed in ignorance. and businesses to the west of the station. The proposition They will contain all the details. When people are now is to abandon that and demolish the whole of the considering the impact on their homes, businesses, schools existing Euston station, which will clearly take longer or leisure provision, it is the detail that counts. and extend the impact. More time will be required because of the increase in scale and the impact on Mr Goodwill: I must make it clear that the House is businesses and people living to the east of the station being asked not to approve the changes, but to allow the will massively increase. Committee to consider the changes and for petitions to be submitted to help them in that work. Mr Slaughter: I share my right hon. Friend’s pain about the shifting sands. The letter to which I referred Frank Dobson: I understand that, but if we had the earlier, which I received today, invites me to a meeting detail, the House might decide that some amendments this Sunday at which I will have are so blindingly stupid that they should not be referred “an opportunity to learn more about a possible new rail link that to the Select Committee in the first place. It remains the has been proposed and how it might affect you. The new line case that we are being asked to endorse these propositions would connect the planned HS2 and Crossrail interchange station without having seen them. Six groups of changes are, it at Old Oak Common with the West Coast Main Line.” is claimed, in response to the requirements of local That might be very desirable—in fact, I thought it was people; four of them are in response to requirements of happening already—but it suddenly introduces a new the public utilities; and five are for “minor changes of railway line that skirts around a few streets on the edge design” and—these are the magic words—“connected of my constituency. The picture changes every day, the purposes”. What we are being asked to push through is consultation becomes redundant and we move to another not quite as specific as has been suggested. phase. 811 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 812 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Frank Dobson: The point that I am trying to make to Order. The hon. Gentleman might consider making his the Minister—and to anyone else who cares to listen—is observations in an Adjournment debate. They are not that we are being asked to endorse the approach set out directly relevant to the two motions we are discussing by the Government by incorporating it in Standing today, as far as I am aware, but he has put them on the Orders of the House. That could be taken as a precedent record. that such a procedure may apply to the massive changes at Euston, not just to the important but none the less Frank Dobson: Although I understand the concerns much smaller changes in the parishes and towns to of people who are directly affected by the propositions which the instruction motion refers. It is therefore perfectly that are not quite before us this afternoon, my principal legitimate for me to express my concerns about the concern is the application of the Standing Orders to threat to my constituents. That is what I was elected to what is proposed and likely to be proposed at Euston, do, and it is what I propose to continue doing. which will be the biggest building and engineering project in Britain for many a long year. Its impact will be 3.21 pm phenomenal and I believe that it is wholly inappropriate for the Government to try to use such a procedure to Mr Goodwill: With the leave of the House, I shall push through changes on that scale and with such an touch on several points raised during the debate. impact. I can tell my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) that the people Mrs Gillan: I am increasingly worried about the along the line of route who are affected by the changes process. My right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden are aware of them. The changes are minor. The process (Mrs Spelman) just said that in her letter she had been has been described as a tidying-up exercise, although I informed that four sites were subject to these additional recall the previous Government describing the treaty of provisions and changes, but the document issued to me Lisbon as a tidying-up exercise, so I should not go too at 1.30 today shows only two changes for Meriden. That far down that road. Of the 55 changes overall, there are reinforces the fact that there is a lack of clarity about 21 changes to access tracks, most of which, including the detail and there seems to be some confusion about the change in her constituency, are a result of discussions what changes are being referred to the Committee. With with farmers about developing preferable approaches. a project of this size, we cannot afford such discrepancy. Some 20 areas of land will be required, mostly temporarily, so that National Grid can undertake works to rewire Frank Dobson: Again, I sympathise with the right pylons. Three areas of land will be required temporarily hon. Lady, because nowhere has been subjected to the for works to pipelines, while a further three areas are absolutely stupendous incompetence of HS2 more than needed due to minor amendments for the laying of my constituency. HS2 proposed a link with HS1. Everyone roads. There will be eight other changes, including with said that that was crackers, HS2 said it was wonderful regard to car parking provision at the national motorcycle and then it had to drop it. HS2 proposed the lean-to museum in the parish of Hampton-in-Arden. engine shed proposal. Lots of people said that that was crackers, HS2 said it was the only thing it would be Mrs Gillan: Why did that change not appear to be possible to do and that it would be extraordinarily included in the list about the additional provision that expensive to have a full development of the whole was given to me at 1.30pm? station—and lo and behold, that is what is now being proposed. No apology has been issued to anyone, as far Mr Goodwill: It might be that just the parishes were as I know, for this stupendous incompetence and listed, not the actual works, but I understand that the ridiculousness. I understand that when an environmental documentation laid before the House did include that— statement is eventually issued, the consultation period [Interruption.] Indeed, I have been passed a bit of will run concurrently with the petitioning period. That paper that might well reassure the hon. Members. I am seems to me to be extremely unfair. told that the changes relating to the motorcycle museum Let me explain the difference in scale between what is site are no longer being brought forward as a result of being formulated now and what is in the Bill. The works negotiations, so I must apologise to the House if the at Euston in the Bill were going to cost £2 billion, but information was incorrect. HS2 let slip at meetings that it is now thinking in terms Such issues will be the subject of petitions that may of £7 billion. Even a fellow Yorkshireman like the be laid before the Select Committee. I believe that the Minister would admit that that is a few bob more. It is petitioning period is adequate, especially given the limited people with that grasp of reality who are behind this scope of the changes. I underline that, at all times, we scheme. In addition, and in a further source of perturbation will seek to comply with all our obligations under EU for my constituents, HS2 now says that the new Euston, and domestic legislation. when finally completed and in operation, would not be able to cope with the increased number of passengers Many of the changes will be welcomed by landowners without the building of Crossrail 2 to help take passengers and people in the relevant areas. They have arisen partly to and from Euston, at an additional cost of £20 billion. as a result of our continuing negotiations with those Will that be included in the new environmental statement affected by the building of HS2, and it is important that and will it be subject to petitioning? we ensure that people’s views are taken into account. We need to look at the overall picture, and the right Mr Goodwill: May I point out to the right hon. hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) Gentleman that none of the provisions we are considering referred to changes that may take place in his constituency. relates to Euston or the part of the line around there, as We are aware not only of the permanent changes that they refer merely to the parishes? will arise due to the line’s construction, especially to the 813 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 814 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill station itself, but of how businesses in the area might be clear about the changes, the pieces of land coming in affected due to the construction. I spent an enjoyable and out of the project, before they make the visits to the lunchtime eating a meal with the right hon. Gentleman sites, as the Select Committee is to do in my constituency in one of the area’s Bangladeshi restaurants, and I next Tuesday? understood precisely the worries of the owners about the erection of building hoardings in the area, which Mr Goodwill: I know my right hon. Friend is aware might make it difficult for the restaurant’s usual clientele that negotiations are ongoing with landowners and to access the site. others to try to mitigate the impact of the project on individuals. Indeed, we are determined to ameliorate—I Frank Dobson: But the point—I have clearly failed to was tempted to use the term “head off”—petitions that make it—is that that area is to the west of the station, are being laid, to ensure that they will not necessarily but there will now be similar problems to the east of the need to appear before the Committee. I think it is a station. good part of this dynamic process that a petition can be raised to alert us to particular concerns, so that we can Mr Goodwill: Sir David Higgins is considering how try to address those concerns. Many of the provisions we can best capitalise on the tremendous opportunity before us today are made in response to petitions. I am that Euston station presents as part of the project. interested to know what consideration has been made in Those of us who remember what the area around relation to the national motorcycle museum. Until very King’s Cross station was like a number of years ago will recently indeed, we intended to provide alternative car understand how it has been transformed. Indeed, the parking, so I shall make a point of finding out what the station itself has become a destination in its own right, solution to that problem is. and people often spend time in that area. We can I know that the two remaining changes in my right capitalise on the opportunity at Euston, but I understand hon. Friend’s constituency are, first, in the parish of that people will be severely affected during the Berkswell, where there will be a temporary diversion of transformation process, so we need to do what we can the Kenilworth Greenway, which will be realigned following to minimise the impact on them. discussions with stakeholders; and secondly, in the parish of Bickenhill, where there will be a requirement to Frank Dobson: David Higgins is apparently incapable oversail property to construct overhead lines, which is a of distinguishing between the land around the stations. minimal impact on the area. The redevelopment at King’s Cross took place on useless, Returning to Euston, I am determined to ensure that empty, brownfield railway land; the land on both sides we do all we can to make sure that customers can still of Euston station is not brownfield land to be rescued reach businesses that may be affected by the construction by some Australian missionary, but a place where people work. live, go about their business and send their children to school, and somewhere people go to old folks’ luncheon Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): clubs. They want to continue to do that; they do not Although my constituency is not affected by the provisions want the area levelled as part of some grandiose before the House, there is a great deal of solidarity redevelopment scheme that everyone can think is wonderful. between those who have this wretched line going through I speak as someone who has strongly supported or under our constituencies. I hope my hon. Friend the redevelopment at Euston and was the first person to Minister realises that although just one right hon. Member advocate using St Pancras station as the terminus for might be affected, we do actually share his concerns. the channel tunnel link, so I do not need to take any lessons from anyone, but the same situation does not Mr Goodwill: As a regular user of the Tea Room, I apply at Euston— am in no doubt as to the strength of feeling up and down the line of route. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Michael Fabricant: On a point of order, Madam Order. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that he was Deputy Speaker. I think my right hon. Friend the making an intervention, not a second speech—although Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John it did sound a bit like one. Randall) might inadvertently have misled the House by saying that only one person might be concerned. In Mr Goodwill: I would be the last person in the world fact, many people are concerned. He may wish to put to try to argue that I know better than the right hon. the record straight. Gentleman about the concerns and aspirations of the people in the area around Euston station. Indeed, when Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): he and I met, we were joined by Sarah Hayward, the No, I am sure he does not wish to put the record leader of Camden council—I have to admit that I am a straight. I do not think that was a point of order, or that little frightened of her—who set out similar concerns in it could possibly be the interpretation of what the right no uncertain terms. Indeed, I am pleased that we have hon. Gentleman said—[Interruption.] Indeed, I think managed to secure social housing provision to replace it is a case of beard solidarity, as he is pointing out. some of the housing that will need to be demolished. Mr Goodwill: I think we have digressed from the Mrs Spelman: On the subject of the motion, I thank subject of the debate. Yes, there are concerned people, the Minister for the clarification about pieces of land in not least those who seek to replace my right hon. Friend my constituency that now will not be needed for the as the Member of Parliament for Uxbridge and South project, but can he assure me, in the presence of the Ruislip. No doubt a number will express their views Chair of the Select Committee hearing the petitions, during the selection process. I am pleased that we have a that the Select Committee members will be absolutely tunnel under that constituency. 815 High Speed Rail (London – West 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 High Speed Rail (London – West 816 Midlands) Bill Midlands) Bill [Mr Goodwill] (b) amendments to accommodate changes to the design of the works authorised by the Bill in: I commend the motions to the House. I believe that (i) the parishes of Stone with Bishopstone and Hartwell, the provisions will give the Committee the opportunity Fleet Marston, Steeple Claydon and Twyford in to listen to any additional petitions, and I am sure the the County of Buckinghamshire, House will be content to approve the motions. (ii) the parish of Mixbury in the County of Oxfordshire, (iii) the parishes of Culworth and Whitfield in the Question put and agreed to. County of Northamptonshire, Resolved, (iv) the parishes of Radbourne, Southam, Stoneleigh That the Order of 29 April 2014 (High Speed Rail (London - and Curdworth in the County of Warwickshire, West Midlands) Bill (Carry-over)) be varied as follows: and After paragraph 10 of the Order insert– (v) the City of Birmingham; “10A. The Order of the House of 26 June 2013 relating to (c) amendments to accommodate the requirements of electronic deposit of documents shall apply in respect of a Bill utility undertakers in: presented as mentioned in paragraph 2 or 4 as in respect of the (i) the parishes of Denham, Wendover, Ellesborough, High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill read for the first Stone with Bishopstone and Hartwell, Quainton time in the current Session.” and Grendon Underwood and the town of Aylesbury in the County of Buckinghamshire, (ii) the parishes of Offchurch, Burton Green, Little HIGH SPEED RAIL (LONDON - WEST Packington, Coleshill, Curdworth, Wishaw and MIDLANDS) BILL: INSTRUCTION (NO. 2) Moxhull and Middleton in the County of Resolved, Warwickshire, (iii) the parishes of Drayton Bassett, Hints with Canwell, That it be a further Instruction to the Select Committee to Weeford, Swinfen and Packington, Fradley and which the High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Bill is Streethay, Longdon, Kings Bromley and Lichfield committed– in the County of Staffordshire, and (1) that the Select Committee have power to consider– (iv) the parish of Bickenhill in the Metropolitan Borough (a) amendments to accommodate the requirements of of Solihull, and amendments for connected purposes; landowners and occupiers in: (2) that any petition against amendments to the Bill which the (i) the parishes of the Little Missenden, Great Missenden, Select Committee is empowered to make shall be referred to the Wendover, Stoke Mandeville, Stone with Bishopstone Select Committee if– and Hartwell, Quainton, Preston Bissett and Turweston in the County of Buckinghamshire, (a) the petition is presented by being deposited in the (ii) the parish of Finmere in the County of Oxfordshire, Private Bill Office not later than the end of the period (iii) the parish of Chipping Warden and Edgcote in the of four weeks beginning with the day on which the County of Northamptonshire, first newspaper notice of the amendments was published, and (iv) the parish of Little Packington in the County of Warwickshire, (b) the petition is one in which the petitioners pray to be (v) the parish of Berkswell in the Metropolitan heard by themselves or through counsel or agents. Borough of Solihull, and That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.— (vi) the City of Birmingham; (Mr Goodwill.) 817 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 818

Regulatory Reform Norman Lamb: Currently, because there is no provision for a joint committee, the participating CCGs have to enter into some sort of arrangement that allows them, 3.33 pm under their constitutional arrangements, to approve The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman whatever plan of action is discussed and agreed at the Lamb): I beg to move, committee in common. There could be a process for each CCG to delegate responsibility to the person attending That the draft Legislative Reform (Clinical Commissioning Groups) order 2014, which was laid before this House on 13 March the committee in common to take the decision at the 2014, in the last Session of Parliament, be approved. committee on a unanimous basis, as the hon. Gentleman suggests. Alternatively, there could be an arrangement The draft legislative reform order seeks to amend the whereby they have to go back to their own CCG and National Health Service Act 2006 in two ways. First, it then have a further committee meeting to endorse the will allow clinical commissioning groups to form a joint proposal that has been discussed at the committee in committee when exercising their commissioning functions common. However it is done, it adds complexity and jointly. The 2006 Act already allows two or more CCGs additional cost to the process. It does not stop anything to exercise their commissioning functions jointly, but happening; it just makes it more complicated than it has makes no provision for them to do so via a joint to be. committee. Secondly, it will allow CCGs to exercise their commissioning functions jointly with NHS England As I said, such arrangements can be burdensome. and to form a joint committee when doing so. The Act Primary care trusts, the predecessors of CCGs, were already allows NHS England and CCGs jointly to able to form joint committees at which participating exercise an NHS England function and to do so by way PCTs were bound by the decisions reached. We therefore of a joint committee, but it makes no provision for them want to allow CCGs—I stress that we are allowing jointly to exercise a CCG function. them, not imposing anything on them, and it is entirely up to them to decide whether they want to participate—a This draft order has already been scrutinised by the route through which they can take decisions in a properly Regulatory Reform Committee, and I was pleased with constituted forum when they are collaborating with its recommendation that it be approved under the other CCGs. affirmative resolution procedure. I should say from the outset that the proposed Similarly, the lack of any power for CCGs to exercise arrangements are voluntary. One party cannot impose their functions jointly with NHS England is causing the arrangements on another. This allows CCGs to inflexibility. NHS England and CCGs may wish to act retain their autonomy and to continue to make decisions jointly to commission better out-of-hospital services, that are in the best interests of their local populations. for example. Making sure that services are integrated They can decide whether to enter a joint committee around the needs of the patient is the best way of arrangement with other CCGs. At the moment, the lack ensuring that care is provided in a safe and compassionate of provision for CCGs to form joint committees is way that most benefits the person involved. placing a burden on CCGs and preventing them from Sometimes there are issues that straddle the working in the most effective and efficient way. Without commissioning responsibilities of NHS England—the the power to form joint committees, CCGs have had to specialised end of the commissioning spectrum—and find other means of reaching joint decisions that are the responsibilities of the local CCG, and it seems to me binding. That means that they often end up seeking that it is worth trying to secure joint working on both legal advice to ensure that they are on a firm footing, sides of that divide in the most effective way possible. and that adds to cost and complexity without a proper The amendment would allow CCGs and NHS England, process in place. as co-commissioners, to develop and agree strategic As an interim measure, therefore, some CCGs are plans and delivery processes that take into account the forming committees in common whereby a number of effects of services across the whole pathway—from CCGs may each appoint a representative to such a specialist to local commissioning—supporting design committee. Those representatives then meet, and any and continuity of services across primary, secondary decisions reached are taken back to their respective and community care. CCGs for ratification. This leads to additional costs in For example, CCGs and NHS England may wish to terms of people’s time in sitting on multiple committees, review service delivery across specialised services administrative resources, and extra financial cost. Clearly, commissioned by NHS England and any impact a such arrangements are burdensome, particularly when redesign may have on non-specialised acute services compared with the simplicity of a joint committee. commissioned by CCGs, in order for services to be Primary care trusts, the predecessors of CCGs, were designed and delivered to achieve the best possible able to form joint committees at which all participating outcome for the population served. The inability of PCTs were bound by the decisions reached, subject to NHS England and CCGs to jointly exercise a CCG the terms of reference of that committee. function, and to form a joint committee when doing so, makes it more difficult to make timely decisions, which Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): can delay the ability to improve patient safety. The The Minister’s advice that all the members of a committee proposed amendments will encourage the formation of acting in common have to report back is at odds with new commissioning partnerships, allowing the most the letter from the Department of Health to a committee effective approach to be used. dated 8 April 2014, where part of its case is that When CCGs agree to form a joint committee, they decisions have to be taken unanimously. That is quite will have the freedom to agree terms of reference, including different from having to report back, and it undermines voting arrangements. They could, therefore, agree between his case about the administrative burden. them to allow decisions to be reached by a majority. 819 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 820

[Norman Lamb] created by the Government’s NHS reorganisation and by the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which will go Equally, however, if a CCG wants to be absolutely sure down in the annals of parliamentary history as one of that there would be no adverse effect on the area it the worst pieces of legislation this House has ever seen. serves, it could, as part of the agreement to enter the joint committee, require unanimity before anything is Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Will the hon. Lady approved. This will not dilute the emphasis on local give way? decision making. It is important that patients, members of the public Liz Kendall: No. I will make some progress. The hon. and other stakeholders are able to see how joint committees Gentleman may want to listen to what the Secretary of operate and, in particular, how decisions are made. State for Health admitted in a letter to the chair of CCGs must specify in their constitutions the arrangements Healthwatch England on 11 August: made for the discharge of their functions and for ensuring “The Health and Social Care Act, when it established CCGs, that there is transparency about the group’s decisions did not make provision for CCGs to form joint committees and and the manner in which they are made. That applies other CCGs. PCTs previously had this provision in legislation whether CCGs are discharging their functions individually and many formed joint committees to progress partnership work. or as part of a joint committee with other CCGs. Health organisations, including CCGs, have expressed concerns about CCGs’ inability to form joint committees that are able to CCGs already have a duty to involve patients and the make binding decisions. This inability has brought many practical public in plans and decisions about commissioning challenges in working together on issues that cut across boundaries, arrangements. This involvement can be by way of such as continuing healthcare, patient specific funding requests consultation, by the provision of information or in and service change” other ways. We would still expect CCGs to make suitable across the country. I do not know whether the Minister arrangements to make sure that that duty is complied wants to explain why the Health and Social Care Act with when exercising their functions in a joint committee. removed that provision, as the Health Secretary admitted In other words, the duty is exactly the same: arrangements in the letter to Healthwatch England. Does he want to for public involvement apply equally to decisions made stand up? If not, I will make some progress. by CCGs in a joint committee as they do to those made The Minister was fortunate not to be on the Committee by CCGs individually. There is no reason why decisions that looked at the Health and Social Care Bill twice, so taken in joint committees should be any less transparent he will not know that Opposition Members repeatedly than any decisions taken individually. The creation of warned during its passage that CCGs would often be joint committees would enable CCGs to take binding too small to secure effective changes to services across decisions without the need for separate ratification of wider areas. We have consistently made it clear that the complicated delegation structures. only way we can get the big changes we need to be able CCGs are still accountable as individual organisations— to improve care for patients, including by specialising they do not lose that by entering a joint committee. some services in regional centres and shifting others out Joint arrangements mean that each CCG is still liable of hospitals into the community and towards prevention, for the exercise of its commissioning functions, even is by working in partnership across larger areas. where they are being exercised jointly with another In principle, we support the need for collaboration CCG or with NHS England. To be clear: joint working and for CCGs to come together both with one another does not abrogate a CCG of their responsibilities as a and with NHS England, particularly in wanting to statutory, independent and accountable organisation. commission good services across primary, secondary, The proposed arrangements will not lead to reconfiguration community and specialist care. However, serious concerns by the back door; they will not affect the existing have been raised about the draft order by local healthwatch processes, the tests that any significant service redesign organisations, Healthwatch England and some of the needs to follow or the role of the overview and scrutiny organisations that responded to the consultation, and committee locally. my hon. Friends may want to raise real concerns. I will The proposed amendments build on existing powers go through the concerns in some detail. by giving CCGs greater flexibility and control in the The Minister has talked about the fact that CCGs way they work. They return, in a sense, to the arrangements will remain autonomous, but many of them are concerned that were in place with primary care trusts. The changes that that is not written into the draft order. Many CCGs will support more effective and efficient joint working feel that they are coming under increasing pressure and allow discussions about service redesign to take from NHS England and some of its local offices. They place across the local health economy. As CCGs become are concerned that the draft order might take away their more established organisations, they need to have more autonomy, forcing them into committees and decisions flexibility to work together and with NHS England. In that they do not think are in the best interests of local any commissioning structure, there will always be some people. decisions that need to be taken locally and some that span a wider population. Norman Lamb: Will the hon. Lady give way?

3.44 pm Liz Kendall: If the Minister will give me two seconds, before I allow him to intervene I want to read out what Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): The draft order NHS Clinical Commissioners—the independent collective makes important changes, so I welcome the fact that we voice of CCGs—said in its response to the consultation. can debate it properly on the Floor of the House. Hon. It said that it Members will forgive me if I say that the reason we are “would not want the Legislative Reform Order to become a ‘back here today is to try to clear up yet another problem door mechanism’ for reconfigurations.” 821 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 822

It asked for be in place. If they felt that unanimity was required in “some assurance the change will continue to respect the decisions order to protect the interests of the community they of CCGs as statutory bodies”, serve, they could make that a condition of entering the and it insisted that joint committee. It is entirely up to the participating CCGs to agree the rules. “CCGs must not be pushed into shared arrangements with NHS England if it is not in the interests or needs of their population”. I have heard the Minister’s words about that, but the Liz Kendall: I am grateful to the Minister for that draft order has not been changed. Perhaps he would helpful clarification. like to say more about it. The third concern has been raised by the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services and by the Local Norman Lamb: It is worth putting it on the record Government Association. They are concerned that any again that this does nothing to change the legal duties joint arrangements between CCGs, or between CCGs of a CCG and nothing to put any pressure on a CCG to and NHS England, must be fully aligned with the enter any arrangement, either with other CCGs or with geographical boundaries and strategies of local health NHS England. If a CCG feels under pressure, it has and wellbeing boards. That is not only because we have every right to resist it, if it feels that to do so is in its to get health and social care working together, with interests or those of its local community. This is entirely council care services and the NHS, but because of voluntary. With regard to the legal duties, nothing accountability issues. Perhaps the Minister will say changes. something about that later. The last two concerns about the draft order are, for Liz Kendall: If one of the 22 CCGs in the east me, the greatest. The fourth is about how the joint midlands, part of which I represent, decided that it did committees will be held to account for the decisions not want to come together to commission one body to they take and how patients, the public, local healthwatch, perform NHS continuing health care, for example, because health and wellbeing boards and Members of this House it did not like it, could it say no? can know what decisions are taken and hold the joint committees to account, because I understand that they Norman Lamb: Absolutely. There is nothing in the will not be required to meet in public. I raise that proposed amendment that could force any CCG to do concern because it has been raised in two letters from anything. I suspect that in such circumstances common the chair of Healthwatch England to the Secretary of sense might prevail, as everyone recognises that on State. In her first letter on 16 July, she wrote: something such as NHS continuing health care, “I am concerned about the impact this reform could have on collaboration makes a lot of sense, as the shadow the statutory role of local Healthwatch, the integrity of local Minister indicated, but there is nothing to force anyone accountability mechanisms, and meaningful public involvement to do that. in decisions about service redesign.” She goes on: Liz Kendall: Will the Minister also clarify that if “Whilst I recognise the important role CCG collaborations can NHS England wanted to form a joint committee with play in the effective commissioning of health and social care and CCGs in the area, it could not force them into it? the transformation of traditional service models, I am sure you will agree that it is vital they are accompanied by strong accountability Norman Lamb: This is a good exchange of views. and engagement mechanisms. This is of particular importance Again, I can confirm that this is about a voluntary given the scale of decisions being made by joint committees, and our anticipation that many more of these joint arrangements will arrangement between a CCG or CCGs and NHS England. be put in place. Without these safeguards in place, the public are There is no compulsion at all. far less likely to understand, or be accepting of, the changes that happen in their community.” Liz Kendall: I am very grateful to the Minister, who She recommends that the draft order be strengthened, has perhaps been much clearer on that point than the and makes four proposals: Minister in the other place was. “Ensure CCGs acting in collaborative arrangements have in The Minister has been clear that CCGs will not be place adequate mechanisms meaningfully to engage the…community.” forced into joint committees, but the second concern She suggests a relates to majority voting in the committees. He will know that the Regulatory Reform Committee’s report “mandatory non-voting constitutional seat on Committees…for cites a couple of CCGs that have been concerned that: local Healthwatch.” “Joint committees would be able to take majority decisions on and a behalf of their constituent CCGs and NHS England, and so “duty on all lead or co-ordinating commissioners to have due individual CCGs might find themselves accountable for implementing regard to existing local agreed priorities…(including Joint Strategic policies that their members did not consider to be in the best Needs Assessments and Health and Wellbeing Plans).” interests of the local population.” Finally, there should be To put it bluntly, if one or two CCGs on the committee disagree, they can be outvoted. Is that the case, and “a duty on all lead or co-ordinating commissioners to act within would it be possible for NHS England to have the existing local accountability mechanisms” casting vote on a committee? including local health and wellbeing boards. When the Secretary of State replied to Anna Bradley, Norman Lamb: It is helpful to respond straight away he said he felt that mechanisms for public accountability on these specific points. Again, I stress, as I think I were in place and that there would be no proposed made clear at the beginning, that it is up to the participating strengthening of the order. In her reply to him on 20 CCGs to determine what voting arrangements should August, Anna Bradley stated: 823 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 824

[Liz Kendall] to say that two of our hospitals, Stafford and Cannock Chase, are currently being integrated, the first with the “I do not yet share your confidence that the new joint committee University Hospital of North Staffordshire and the arrangements will address our concerns about transparency and second with Royal Wolverhampton hospital, while at accountability.” the same time an inquiry is being held into the entire The Government said throughout the Health and health economy in Staffordshire. It is characterised as a Social Care Act 2012 and all their reforms that there fragile health economy—which it absolutely is—and we should be “No decision about me without me”, but the await the report, due in the next few days, with keen patient and public voice, local and national Healthwatch, interest. has said it does not believe that that strong patient and Four CCGs in Staffordshire—Stafford and Surrounds, public voice will be effective under the proposed order. Cannock Chase, Stoke-on-Trent and North Staffordshire The Minister needs to respond to that. —have come together to commission cancer and end-of-life Finally—this is a particular concern of mine—one services. Like all Members, I have no problem with the decision that joint committees can take concerns individual idea of improving outcomes for cancer patients. Together patient-specific funding requests for things such as NHS with Macmillan, the CCGs have consulted heavily with continuing health care. Any hon. Member whose constituent local cancer patients, and that extremely valuable work has applied for that kind of funding, or funding for a has raised many concerns about the co-ordination of number of different areas, knows that it can be difficult services in Staffordshire that I share—constituents have to get to the bottom of those decisions. I had a particular come to me with the same concerns. That is all well and problem with Greater East Midlands commissioning good and I agree with that work. support unit, which manages continuing health care for We have very strong concerns, however, over the the 22 CCGs in the east midlands. I have barely been proposal for improving those services. As I understand able to get any information out of it about the bad it, everywhere else Macmillan has worked with CCGs decisions it has taken, and that is a real worry because I and NHS England, a co-operative and collaborative am concerned that the joint committees will repeat that. approach has been adopted to improve the co-ordination How will we know how those decisions are taken or of cancer and end-of-life services. CCGs have to commission hold them to account? services from many different providers—37 in Staffordshire, I believe—so it is a complex operation and I understand Norman Lamb: Perhaps the hon. Lady will give me why they want to simplify it, but in Staffordshire, instead details of that concern in her local area. It is important of saying to existing providers, “How can we work that we hold the different parts of the system to account, better together? Could someone take the lead and work and she should be able to establish the position. I am with us to provide better cancer and end-of-life services?” happy to pursue that matter for her if she would like. the services have been put out to tender for 10 years. These services are worth £120 million a year, which is Liz Kendall: I am grateful to the Minister. I will £1.2 billion over 10 years. forward him my concerns, just as I have done to my local CCGs and the chief executive of NHS England. I have two major concerns and plan to make a direct request to the Minister at the end of my remarks. First, To conclude, Healthwatch raised these concerns in an extremely large reorganisation and tender process relation to a particular issue in Greater Manchester and are being imposed on a fragile health economy that is the Healthier Together project, where 12 CCGS have going through an extremely difficult amalgamation of grouped together to reconfigure services. The local two hospitals into other trusts which we must support healthwatch is concerned that under the draft order and must be done properly to ensure patient safety and some of the problems it has seen with Healthier Together quality of care. However, one of the acute trusts, UHNS, could be replicated. For example, I understand that which will be taking over Stafford hospital and will governance meetings for Healthier Together started to effectively—there is no other alternative—be the one take place in public only in March 2014. That was after providing acute cancer services in the area, has also major decisions—such as the model for service expressed grave concern. reconfiguration—were discussed in a closed session of that committee. The local healthwatch remains concerned As a result of that concern, I and other colleagues about the lack of clarity on planned public involvement from Stoke-on-Trent and elsewhere wrote to the CCGs in Healthier Together in future, and, like the local asking them at least to suspend the process until the healthwatch, Healthwatch England is concerned that extreme fragility of the health economy had been made the joint committees will not be accountable to patients more robust as a result of the dissolution of Mid and the public. Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust. To date, that has not happened. There have been public meetings. I addressed Hon. Members across the House will say that previous one, with others, on Saturday in Stafford. I do not want primary care trusts were sometimes not open and to do down the work done with many patients in my accountable, and I may have shared some of those constituency and others who want to see improvements concerns. This is a chance to put things right, but I am in cancer and end-of-life services. I do not want that concerned that the draft order is not strong enough and work to be lost at all, but I believe there are other ways I know other hon. Members will also raise that point. to ensure that the co-operation and co-ordination are better. 3.59 pm My second point is about consultation. The shadow Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I rise to support the Minister raised important points. Does consultation order in general, while wishing to raise some serious have to happen independently in each of the CCGs concerns in Stafford and further afield in Staffordshire. involved in the grouping, or will it be done en masse, in I will not rehearse the circumstances there, other than which case, will there be assurances that the consultation 825 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 826 will be balanced across all the CCGs involved? In this one Member voted against it—and that has provided an case, as I say, we have had quite extensive consultation opportunity to look at the process governed by the 2006 with patients, but at the meeting I addressed in Victoria Act and assess whether the order complies with it. park in Stafford on Saturday, one cancer patient raised In the simplest, most common-sense terms, an order his concern that he had not been consulted. Members would be passed if it would remove a burden and was of Parliament from the area have not been consulted; non-controversial. I think that this order is controversial, nor indeed have the main providers of acute cancer care and I do not think that it meets the conditions in the in the area—the University Hospital of North Staffordshire Act. Those conditions exist because, effectively, the and, for the time being, the Mid Staffordshire NHS process and the order concerned will relieve the House Foundation Trust. They provide very good cancer treatment of the burden and responsibility of going through three and care, although the co-ordination and other services Readings in this House and three Readings in the other such as psychological counselling, financial advice and place, so we have to be certain that this order is non- so forth could be considerably better in some cases. controversial. There are serious questions about the consultation First, there is the question of the consultation on the with all relevant bodies. The Health and Social Care order. The report states that the Department consulted Act 2012 states that the clinical commissioning group the better regulation unit, and was told that, as the “must make arrangements to secure that individuals to whom order would remove only an administrative burden, services are being or may be provided are involved” “it would be appropriate to conduct a targeted consultation in various ways, including rather than a full public consultation.” “in decisions of the group affecting the operation of the commissioning I do not think that that is appropriate. Almost everything arrangements where the implementation of the decisions would (if made) have such an impact.” to do with the structure of the health service at the present time is controversial. My constituents and, certainly, I believe that that has not happened in this case. It must Members of Parliament have views and concerns about happen, which is why I am asking for at least a suspension that, but they were not directly involved or consulted of the process until it has happened. about the process, and I think that that is a mistake in Page 6 of the fifth report of the Regulatory Reform itself. Committee on the draft regulatory reform order refers to Then there is the claim that the order will remove an “concerns about possible loss of protection” administrative burden. When I questioned the Minister because earlier about the administrative burden, I tried to explain “Joint committees would be able to take majority decisions on that, at present, clinical commissioning groups can organise behalf of their constituent CCGs and NHS England, and so themselves into committees, and can make decisions if individual CCGs” those decisions are unanimous. They do not have to might find themselves increasingly concerned during report back to anyone, so there is not an administrative the process, as I know a couple of them are at the burden there. There are other ways in which they can moment. They could find themselves still heavily involved, co-operate: they can reach legal agreements, or, indeed, having committed substantial financial resources, but they can report back, as in the example given by the as a result of the consultation and listening to their Minister. patients and their members they no longer want to go I do not believe that there is an administrative burden ahead with the process. They would probably be outvoted. to be removed. However, I do think that there is the I conclude by asking the Minister to look very closely potential for repression of a clinical commissioning at this issue, which was featured in Private Eye this group. While it is voluntary to enter into these arrangements, week. I ask that some common sense be brought to bear if clinical commissioning groups entered into them in on the situation, if possible, and I ask for a slowing good faith and then encountered a more controversial down or suspension of the process until we have a issue, it would be difficult for them to move out; and if better health economy in Staffordshire and until we are they could move out, that would return them to exactly clearer about the consultation process that needs to the position in which they would have been had they happen. been entering into a voluntary agreement with a committee in common, which means that there is no removal of an administrative burden. If that is the case, we do not 4.8 pm need the order. If it not the case, it is possible for a Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I majority of clinical commissioning groups to overrule rise to oppose the order for two primary reasons. I shall the interests of other CCGs. attempt to divide the House at the end of the debate. In my view, the Regulatory Reform Committee and My first reason relates to the Legislative and Regulatory the Department have not followed the rules set down in Reform Act 2006. Right hon. and hon. Members may the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006, and not be over-familiar with the Act, but its purpose was to the House should reject the order on that basis alone. allow regulatory burdens to be taken away if it was I am not engaging in a theoretical discussion, and I unlikely that Parliament would find time to debate the am not going to ask the Minister to listen to a debate issues and if they were not controversial. It provides in that would be exactly the same as our recent Westminster the Act—this is why we are debating the order today—that Hall debate about the proposals in “Healthier Together”. if the Regulatory Reform Committee is not unanimous, However, a consultation—a very flawed consultation—is there should be a debate on the Floor of the House. If currently taking place in Greater Manchester. The health there is a majority against the order, a longer debate in a trust that covers Wigan, Wrightington, and Leigh in the different form would take place. The Committee did not west of Greater Manchester, and the one that covers unanimously support the order—I am not aware why south Manchester and Wythenshawe, fear that the proposals 827 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 828

[Graham Stringer] must ensure that any joint arrangements they enter into match up to the requirements under the Act. are unreasonable, and feel unable to support them at Under the Act, the essence of CCGs, compared with present. If the proposals were to go ahead, it would be primary care trusts, is that they are independent statutory possible for a majority of the 12 clinical commissioning bodies. I will not follow the hon. Member for Blackley groups that operate in Greater Manchester to make a and Broughton (Graham Stringer) and discuss the process decision that would impose changes on the hospitals in of the regulatory reform order, but he is right: it is not those clinical commissioning areas which are not wanted theoretical; it is practical. There is a practical reason by the clinical commissioning groups. why we are in a better place, with CCGs enjoying As I said, the consultation is deeply flawed. It involves statutory authority compared with PCTs. Although upgrading some hospitals to specialist hospital status they were statutory bodies, they did not have the authority and in effect downgrading other hospitals. Incidentally, that exists presently under statute to deliver and commission three of the hospitals—those in north Manchester, Bury services in the interests of the population they serve, and Tameside—have not been consulted on the proposed without interference or instruction by others. Therefore, changes in those hospitals. as the Minister rightly says, if they wish to enter into The local healthwatch team said that the way in these commissioning arrangements, they do so on a which our CCGs are operating is outside the law and voluntary basis. My view is that in the relatively short that this proposal would put them inside the law. We intervening period under the Act, they have probably can see the reason why: they want a majority decision, underestimated their capacity as statutory bodies to not a decision that would represent the areas of Wigan enter into arrangements voluntarily, exercising their and south Manchester. I could talk a great deal about statutory authorities as long as they do not improperly the rest of the “Healthier Together” proposals, but we delegate their responsibility. debated those details in Westminster Hall. I do not think That takes us back to the practical issue. I remember that the proposals are in the interests of the people of that in 2006, also in Manchester, as it happens—some Greater Manchester. They try to jump the gun before Members will recall this very well—there was the the general election. It would be better for the decisions reorganisation of maternity and children’s services across to be made by whichever Government are in power the city. I suspect that what is being complained of in after the general election. relation to Healthier Together is exactly the same kind The consultation documents omit to mention the of complaint as was made against that consultation, financial situation in which Greater Manchester finds which had its deficiencies, of which I complained. itself—a £1 billion deficit is projected in the next two Leaving aside whether the consultation was good, and a half to three years—and make proposals that bad or indifferent, the point is it did arrive at a position. could lead to the closure of hospitals, while pretending I can remember talking to the chief executive of the that they are only small decisions. The consultation paper primary care trust in Salford and also, separately to the wanders all over the place—through primary, secondary chief executive of Salford Royal, and they were told and tertiary care—but at the core of the consultation is that, as a consequence of the configuration, although the change in status of a number of hospitals in Greater the primary care trust wished to commission maternity Manchester. I worry that, if the CCGs work together services and paediatric intensive care services from Salford and make majority decisions, the proposals in the “Healthier Royal and the hospital wished to provide them, they Together” consultation will be used as a blank cheque— were not allowed to do so because the Joint Committee health authorities in Greater Manchester will have carte of Primary Care Trusts was preventing them from blanche to do what they wish, without taking account doing so. In fact, as they were, in effect, in a hierarchy of the views of the people of Greater Manchester. under the strategic health authority, under past legislation they could have been required—forced—to go down that route, and were forced to do so. 4.17 pm That, in my view, is not the position now, and it still Mr Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I will not be the position under these proposals because did not intend to say much about the regulatory reform they are voluntary. If a CCG takes the view that it is in order but I am prompted to do so to ask some questions the best interests of its population to deliver some and to respond to one or two points. I will not rise to service, it must take a decision consistent with that view. the bait of the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for If that means it enters into a voluntary arrangement to Leicester West (Liz Kendall), other than to say that I deliver that, that is to be supported. If it takes the view thought it deeply ironic that, in railing against the that it has to depart from any such arrangement in Health and Social Care Act 2012, she instanced for order to secure the best interests of its population, it most of her speech the views of Healthwatch England, must go down that path as well. It would be wrong, a body representing patients that was created under that under this order or otherwise, for it not to do what is in Act. It remedies one of the greatest failings of the last the best interests of the population it serves. Labour Government, who demolished successive efforts Finally I have a question, which in this respect is an to give patients a genuine voice. important one following on from what the shadow Minister I was grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for asked. In commissioning—quite often when commissioning, Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) for instancing the Act’s for example, out-of-hospital and community services—it requirements on CCGs in relation to patient involvement. is right that one may well need to co-ordinate across “No decision about me without me” is at the heart of CCG services and NHS England’s responsibility for the the principles of reform. They are set out in the primary commissioning of primary care services or, indeed, legislation. This reform order does not in any way other services such as dental care and pharmacy services. reduce the statutory requirements on CCGs, which That being the case, however, it is also important to 829 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 830 commission across social care services and some public That was reflected in the widely quoted comments health aspects of local authorities’ responsibilities. With made by Anna Bradley, the chair of Healthwatch England. local authorities having their own statutory authority, In her note, she said that and CCGs likewise, it is perfectly possible for them to “we are concerned that the proposed reforms could create the enter into joint commissioning arrangements, and they conditions for CCG decision-making to become disconnected do so. I hope the Minister will be able to reassure me from the transparency and accountability mechanisms put in that not only are local authorities and the geography of place by the Government’s health reforms”. health and wellbeing boards and scrutiny to be respected She recognises, as do many hon. Members, the importance in terms of the way in which CCGs enter into these of the tension. She also referred to it in a press release, kinds of voluntary arrangements, but also that where in which she stated: they enter into joint commissioning arrangements they “We understand the benefits of commissioners working are able to do so in ways that can mesh together NHS collaboratively but it remains crucial that local people are involved, England, CCGs, as necessary, and local authorities. asked what they want and understand how decisions will affect I urge that at the heart of this is a recognition that the way services are delivered in their area.” CCGs now have statutory authority. That is what is In my own area in Bedfordshire, we have been having a different. They are accountable to their local community, collaborative exercise between two clinical commissioning and must set out a commissioning plan and agree it groups, and they have done an extraordinarily good job with their health and wellbeing boards. If they try to of communicating and maintaining local decision making. enter into an arrangement which is contrary to the best interests of their population, as set out in that Graham Stringer: The House owes the hon. Gentleman commissioning plan or by agreement with the health a debt of gratitude for bringing the order before us and wellbeing boards, clearly it would be deficient and today. Will he tell us whether, in the example he is it should not be able to be pursued. giving, the order would help, hinder or be neutral?

Richard Fuller: I am not an expert, but in that particular 4.24 pm instance I do not think I would fear the joint committee making a different recommendation from the current Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): It is truly a pleasure committee in common, although it has yet to come to listen to my right hon. Friend the Member for South back with its report. The point is that the hon. Gentleman Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) and to follow him in the and others have aired important questions for the Minister debate. I am a member of the Regulatory Reform Select to answer. He has answered some of them, and that has Committee and it was my vote that enabled the House been the purpose of the debate today. as a whole to debate this measure, which might, on Underpinning all this is the fact—whose importance paper, seem rather arcane. The hon. Member for Blackley I hope the Minister will emphasise in his response—that and Broughton (Graham Stringer) asked why we are people want important health decisions to be taken debating it in this way. We are doing so because the core locally.They can be persuaded of, and they can understand, dilemma in much health reform involves the tension the issue of common advance, but they want to know between local decision making and common advance. that a decision is being taken locally. I think that the For many people, there is a tension between the priority Minister dealt with this in his response to the shadow to localise decision making and the need, as seen by Minister, but I would be grateful if he answered these professionals such as the doctors and clinicians whom points quite specifically. First, am I right in thinking we trust, for some decisions to be made on a common that he said that decisions on the part of commissioning basis in order to achieve overall advances in health care. groups to go into joint committees were voluntary, It can be difficult to find the appropriate boundaries as rather than compulsory, and that it would therefore we try to resolve that tension. remain possible for them to continue to set up committees I felt that it was important to bring this matter to the in common if they so wished? My second question— House so that other hon. Members could have a chance to talk about the experience in their own localities. The Norman Lamb rose— issues in Greater Manchester have already been mentioned, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Richard Fuller: I am happy to give way to the Minister Lefroy) has mentioned the issues in his own area. I also iteratively, or he can wait until I have given him the full felt that it was important to herald one of the most menu. Which would he prefer? important attributes of the reforms that my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire introduced, Norman Lamb: The answer to that question is yes, which was to enable, as far as possible, decision making absolutely; I repeat that this is a voluntary act by any on these issues to take place locally and to ensure that CCG. To address one of the concerns raised by the those local decisions were led not by politicians or shadow Minister, let me say that there may well be bureaucrats but by doctors. A concern has been expressed circumstances in which CCGs want the rules of the that this change would somehow draw us away from game established at the start of the joint committee those reforms. saying that there will be circumstances in which they The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Leicester can withdraw from that committee. So there are no West (Liz Kendall), asked some extremely pertinent circumstances in which any CCG needs to feel that it questions, although she perhaps got off to a bad start will be oppressed in any way by its neighbouring CCGs, by taking the political apparatchik line and suggesting NHS England or anyone else. that certain problems were the result of the reforms. This is actually about one of the best parts of those Richard Fuller: I am grateful for that clarification. reforms, which allows local people to make decisions. My second question is on the issue of voting on the 831 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 832

[Richard Fuller] change their rules, or are they bound by those rules once they have signed up to them? I am very grateful for joint committees. To be effective, is it a requirement that the opportunity to debate these issues on the Floor of joint committees should be based on unanimous voting the House, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s only and that all CCGs would have to agree, or will response. joint committees be substantially based on majority voting? Is it open to CCGs to create joint committees 4.34 pm with majority or unanimity voting depending on how they wish to set those up? Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I apologise for missing the opening speeches, but I was chairing the Health Committee. I am delighted to have been here to Norman Lamb rose— hear my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller). I absolutely agree with him, and am grateful to Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): him for raising this issue of the tension that exists Order. May I say to the Minister that I know he is trying between localism and the decisions that are being made to be helpful, but he will soon be seeking to answer this in good faith by clinical commissioners. There is a need debate? We have only one more speaker to go, so to help for us to engage local people in decision-making to the flow of the debate perhaps Members could finish ensure that we get the best possible outcome for them. their speeches and then he can respond. I am sure that other Members have raised concerns about Healthwatch and the possibility of the local voice Richard Fuller: I am grateful for the direction, Madam being squeezed out. Will the Minister address the issue Deputy Speaker. My third question relates to the legalities of the time scale that is often given to local people to and costs, which were mentioned by the Minister and consider quite detailed proposals? Indeed, detailed proposals were in the justification for making this change from will be given to local health and wellbeing boards at committees in common to joint committees. I am still a Devon county council with only a day’s notice, and little at a loss as to what those legalities and costs are. there is no obligation to include local healthwatch. We What costs are currently incurred or are anticipated to need guidance in that area, especially if we are to have be incurred, and why would the costs be substantially committees in common, which I support. I will support less with joint committees? I am not looking for a the regulatory reform order, as it is a good thing. Like generic answer such as, “There are some legal costs here my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire and legal costs there.” I am looking for something (Mr Lansley), I think that we could go further and specific, because if we are to make a change, we have to involve other groups in these permissive arrangements. demonstrate that a substantial administrative burden As he will know, for people living on the boundaries of has been taken away. clinical commissioning groups, such arrangements do My fourth question relates to the impact of the not always appear to be logical. This will allow change on existing committees in common. I think it commissioning to take place over a wider area with would be correct to say that the Healthier Together better outcomes for patients and often with great saving. review in Manchester is proceeding as a committee in I absolutely support the measure, but the concerns common, not as a joint committee. Would that be the expressed by Healthwatch, which have also been expressed case if this change is made, or would it be possible, to me, need to be addressed. either automatically or by choice, for existing committees in common to be transferred to joint committees with 4.36 pm the same decision rights that joint committees would have? I am not too clear as to the position for committees Norman Lamb: I am grateful to all Members for their that are already extant. contributions to this debate. Regarding the shadow Minister’s contribution, I am pleased to hear that she is My fifth question relates to the Minister’s statement supportive, at least in principle, of this capacity to that committees in common somehow place a “burden”. facilitate greater collaboration at a local level. As my I would be grateful for his clarification that he does not right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire believe that the essence of localism, which was a substantial (Mr Lansley) said, it is rather ironic that this is all about intention behind the reform introduced my right hon. a reformed health system that has much better clinical Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire, is the and democratic legitimacy than the one we inherited burden to which reference is being made. Sometimes from the Opposition. I notice that no one is out there one fears that there is tension between localism and waving banners demanding the return of the primary common advance. If we allow the people who are on care trust. Ultimately, that body had no accountability joint committees and their decision making to get further to the local community—[Interruption.] No, it had no and further away from the people, the burden of having accountability. Its accountability was entirely upwards to go back to get local approval is lost. I hope that the to the strategic health authority and to the national Minister can clarify that that is not what is meant in the level. order’s reference material. Finally, there has been a lot of commentary about the Liz Kendall: That is completely over the top. Sometimes fact that it is up to committees to change their minds I have had great trouble getting any answers out of my later on and to decide whether it is a joint committee or CCG. Sometimes they have been good and sometimes not. But the Minister can be clear that not all the they have been bad. I have also had great trouble getting consequences of what a committee will find can be anything out of the commissioning support unit. The known at the outset. Can he clarify whether it is possible Minister should not paint some super rosy picture of for CCGs that are already signed up to joint decision fantastic accountability and patient involvement, as making on joint committees by majority voting to there are still some real issues. 833 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 834

Norman Lamb: I fully understand that we should Concerns were raised that joint committees might always be arguing the case for greater openness and for not meet in public. Joint working does not need to mean greater legitimacy and accountability. All I am saying is that it will take place behind closed doors and exactly that the system that we inherited had no local legitimacy the same responsibilities will apply to CCGs when they at all, and that this is a significant improvement. work jointly as when they work on their own or through The shadow Minister talked about alignment with committees in common. Indeed, I understand that health and wellbeing boards. I think that that will committees in common have already on occasion met in almost always be the case. In my county of Norfolk, public and I would always encourage accountable there are several CCGs, but all are operating within a organisations to operate in public wherever possible. health and wellbeing area and a local health economy. That is the approach that I seek to advocate. There may be circumstances in which more than one In response to concerns raised by my hon. Friend the health and wellbeing board area is being considered, Member for Stafford, let me make the point that the and I think that that is the case within the Manchester requirements for service change that apply to a CCG area and the discussions that are going on there. But in regarding any major proposal for change will still apply, most circumstances, the sort of collaboration that we including that for appropriate consultation. Joint committees are talking about will be consistent with the health and might want to consult jointly to co-ordinate their wellbeing board area. communications to patients and the public where appropriate, but the duty remains on the clinical The shadow Minister also asked how CCGs will be commissioning group and it must demonstrate that it is held to account for joint decisions. When they act in meeting it. joint committee, they will be subject to the same duties as when they act on their own and the accountability The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham they face will be exactly the same. It is very important to Stringer) again raised concerns about the process going reiterate that point. on in Manchester and he and I debated the matter in debate to which he referred. I stress that his concerns The hon. Lady also raised concerns about the issues are about actions taken under the existing regime, with that Healthwatch England has raised, and I stress that a committee in common, rather than under the proposals the Department, NHS England and Healthwatch England in the order. are working together to ensure that CCGs have the materials and resources they need to support their effective and The hon. Gentleman expressed worry about the accountable collaboration and local healthwatch appropriateness of the order under the Legislative and organisations and others are supported to hold the Regulatory Reform Act 2006, but both the Regulatory system effectively to account. Everything on our side is Reform Committee and the Delegated Powers and about facilitating accountability at a local level, not Regulatory Reform Committee judged that a satisfactory undermining it. case had been made for the LRO and that the order met the tests under the 2006 Act, so his concerns are misplaced. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Although he has legitimate and genuine concerns about Lefroy) raised concerns about the issues in his area. I the process in Manchester and whether it is right for think that it is fair to say that they are not directly local people, I suggest to him that accountability will be related to the proposals under the order, in that his encouraged and improved if the new system is less concerns are about issues under the current arrangements opaque and more clearly set out in legislation than the rather than any potential impact of the proposed change. existing one. All the things about which he worries are I want to reassure him that nothing in the order in any happening under the existing arrangements. way undermines effective accountability for changes. I think it would be dangerous for me to go down the It is up to CCGs to set out terms of reference for any route of responding to the points he raises about his joint committee arrangement, such as the scope for local circumstances, and I suspect that you, Mr Deputy decision taking, and arrangements for membership or Speaker, would rule me out of order if I tried to do so. voting. They may also determine situations in which a CCG would wish to withdraw from a joint committee arrangement. The hon. Gentleman was worried that Jeremy Lefroy: The point I wish to make is that in our one CCG might feel oppressed or bullied by others, but case the group of CCGs that is seeking to put out to it could set the terms of reference so that it could tender the commissioning of end-of-life and cancer withdraw in defined circumstances, so his concern is services appears to be abrogating its responsibilities for misplaced. commissioning. These are clinical commissioning groups, My right hon. Friend the Member for South yet they seek to put out to tender the commissioning of Cambridgeshire spoke about important improvements vital services for our constituents for 10 years. One in democratic accountability and clinical leadership in might be concerned that the groupings would seek to do commissioning, and the benefits that that secures. He more like that. asked about collaboration on commissioning not only between CCGs, or between CCGs and NHS England, Norman Lamb: My hon. Friend expresses a concern but, critically, with local authorities and public health about what is happening at present and he is absolutely bodies. Such collaboration is facilitated, and he and I right as a local Member to challenge, question and hold share the view that we should try to promote a more to account the clinical commissioning groups in his permissive NHS health and care system within which area, but I do not think that there is anything in the local arrangements may be put in place to ensure that order that changes the arrangements about which he is the resources available throughout the health and care concerned. Indeed, I think that streamlining the system system are used as efficiently as possible. We should so that there is more effective accountability and less encourage such joint commissioning, rather than putting opaque decision making is better for local people. blocks in its way. 835 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 836

[Norman Lamb] Baker, rh Norman Evans, Mr Nigel Baker, Steve Evennett, Mr David My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Baldwin, Harriett Fabricant, Michael Fuller) rightly talked about the tension that exists between Barclay, Stephen Farron, Tim local decision making and clinical best practice. This Barker, rh Gregory Featherstone, rh Lynne approach is all about managing that tension, rather Baron, Mr John Field, Mark Barwell, Gavin Foster, rh Mr Don than trying to pretend that it does not exist. He made Bebb, Guto Fox,rhDrLiam the vital point, with which I agree, that people want Beith, rh Sir Alan Francois, rh Mr Mark health decisions to be taken locally, and we should try Bellingham, Mr Henry Freeman, George to facilitate open discussion and debate about the difficult Benyon, Richard Freer, Mike choices that we sometimes have to make, rather than Beresford, Sir Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine taking power away from people, which just undermines Binley, Mr Brian Fuller, Richard confidence in the system. Birtwistle, Gordon Gale, Sir Roger My hon. Friend asked about unanimity, so I repeat Blackman, Bob Garnier, Sir Edward that if a CCG wants to enter into a joint committee Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mark arrangement, but to protect its position on behalf of its Blunt, Crispin Gauke, Mr David Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick local community, it can insist that unanimity is the basis Bottomley, Sir Peter Gilbert, Stephen on which decisions are taken. That is entirely a matter Bradley, Karen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl for the participating CCGs. Brake, rh Tom Glen, John My hon. Friend asked about the cost and burden of Bray, Angie Goldsmith, Zac the existing arrangements. We all understand the possibility Brazier, Mr Julian Goodwill, Mr Robert of legal challenge, and there can be complex arrangements Bridgen, Andrew Gove, rh Michael that involve organisations going through hoops to ensure Brine, Steve Graham, Richard that they meet their legal duties, perhaps by going back Brokenshire, James Grant, Mrs Helen to their CCGs so that a decision taken in a committee in Brooke, rh Annette Gray, Mr James Browne, Mr Jeremy Green, rh Damian common may be endorsed. The more complicated those Bruce, Fiona Grieve, rh Mr Dominic arrangements, however, the greater the risk of legal Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew challenge, and therefore the cost, so simplifying in law Burley, Mr Aidan Gummer, Ben the basis by which CCGs and NHS England can come Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam together to make joint decisions, should they want to, Burns, rh Mr Simon Hague, rh Mr William improves accountability, makes the system less opaque Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert and reduces the risk of unnecessary costs. I totally agree Burstow, rh Paul Hames, Duncan with my hon. Friend this is not about the burden of Burt, Lorely Hammond, rh Mr Philip localism. Localism is a burden worth carrying; it is not Byles, Dan Hammond, Stephen to be avoided. The burden is bureaucratic complexity Cable, rh Vince Hands, rh Greg and the involvement of lawyers—I speak as an ex-lawyer. Cairns, Alun Harper, Mr Mark The more we can keep lawyers out of it, the better, and I Campbell, Mr Gregory Harrington, Richard am sure many hon. Members would agree. Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harris, Rebecca Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hart, Simon My hon. Friend made the point that not all consequences Carmichael, Neil Harvey, Sir Nick may be known at the outset and that things may change, Chishti, Rehman Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan but CCGs can set the terms of reference to provide for Chope, Mr Christopher Heald, Sir Oliver that if they choose to. The measure is absolutely permissive; Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heath, Mr David it does not impose anything on anyone. Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris My right hon. Friend—sorry, my hon. Friend the Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston). I thought something Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Colvile, Oliver Hendry, Charles might have happened as a result of her election to the Crabb, rh Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Chair of the Select Committee, but it will happen in Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian time, I am sure. I am delighted that she supports the Davey, rh Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark measure. She made the perfectly legitimate point that, Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip we ought to be encouraging and facilitating working (Monmouth) Holloway, Mr Adam across boundaries, both of CCGs and of the different Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris organisations involved in health and care, to get the best Davis, rh Mr David Horwood, Martin possible use of the resource available for any local area. de Bois, Nick Howarth, Sir Gerald Finally, I repeat that we take on board the concerns Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy of Healthwatch England. We intend to work with that Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Hunter, Mark body to ensure maximum accountability for the decisions Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian taken as part of these joint committees. Drax, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Question put. Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jackson, Mr Stewart The House divided: Ayes 276, Noes 152. Dunne, Mr Philip James, Margot Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Division No. 49] [4.51 pm Ellison, Jane Jenrick, Robert Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Gareth AYES Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew Adams, Nigel Amess, Mr David Eustice, George Jones, rh Mr David Afriyie, Adam Andrew, Stuart Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Aldous, Peter Bacon, Mr Richard Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel 837 Regulatory Reform9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regulatory Reform 838

Knight, rh Sir Greg Rutley, David Balls, rh Ed Jones, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Sanders, Mr Adrian Barron, rh Kevin Jones, Susan Elan Lamb, rh Norman Sandys, Laura Bayley, Hugh Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Lancaster, Mark Scott, Mr Lee Beckett, rh Margaret Kane, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Selous, Andrew Begg, Dame Anne Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Laws, rh Mr David Shannon, Jim Benn, rh Hilary Keeley, Barbara Leadsom, Andrea Sharma, Alok Berger, Luciana Kendall, Liz Lee, Dr Phillip Simmonds, Mark Betts, Mr Clive Khan, rh Sadiq Leech, Mr John Simpson, David Blackman-Woods, Roberta Lammy, rh Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Simpson, Mr Keith Blomfield, Paul Lavery, Ian Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Chloe Blunkett, rh Mr David Leslie, Chris Lewis, Brandon Smith, Julian Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Lewis, Dr Julian Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Brennan, Kevin Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Love, Mr Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Buck, Ms Karen Lucas, Ian Loughton, Tim Stanley, rh Sir John Burden, Richard Mahmood, Shabana Luff, Sir Peter Stephenson, Andrew Burnham, rh Andy Mann, John Lumley, Karen Stevenson, John Byrne, rh Mr Liam Marsden, Mr Gordon Macleod, Mary Stewart, Iain Campbell, rh Mr Alan McCabe, Steve Maude, rh Mr Francis Streeter, Mr Gary Campbell, Mr Ronnie McDonagh, Siobhain Maynard, Paul Stride, Mel Caton, Martin McDonald, Andy McCartney, Jason Stuart, Mr Graham Champion, Sarah McDonnell, John McCartney, Karl Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Chapman, Jenny McFadden, rh Mr Pat McIntosh, Miss Anne Sturdy, Julian Clwyd, rh Ann McKinnell, Catherine McPartland, Stephen Swales, Ian Coaker, Vernon Meale, Sir Alan Menzies, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Connarty, Michael Mearns, Ian Metcalfe, Stephen Teather, Sarah Corbyn, Jeremy Miller, Andrew Mills, Nigel Timpson, Mr Edward Crausby, Mr David Moon, Mrs Madeleine Milton, Anne Tomlinson, Justin Creagh, Mary Morden, Jessica Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Tredinnick, David Creasy, Stella Morris, Grahame M. Mordaunt, Penny Truss, rh Elizabeth Cruddas, Jon (Easington) Morris, James Turner, Mr Andrew Cryer, John Mudie, Mr George Mosley, Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Cunningham, Alex Munn, Meg Mowat, David Uppal, Paul Cunningham, Sir Tony Murphy, rh Paul Mulholland, Greg Vaizey, Mr Edward Dakin, Nic Nandy, Lisa Munt, Tessa Vara, Mr Shailesh Danczuk, Simon Onwurah, Chi Newmark, Mr Brooks Vickers, Martin David, Wayne Owen, Albert Newton, Sarah Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Denham, rh Mr John Pearce, Teresa Dowd, Jim Pound, Stephen Nokes, Caroline Walker, Mr Charles Norman, Jesse Dugher, Michael Powell, Lucy Walker, Mr Robin Nuttall, Mr David Durkan, Mark Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Ward, Mr David Ollerenshaw, Eric Eagle, Maria Reed, Mr Steve Weatherley, Mike Opperman, Guy Esterson, Bill Reeves, Rachel Webb, rh Steve Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Evans, Chris Reynolds, Emma Parish, Neil Wharton, James Farrelly, Paul Reynolds, Jonathan Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wheeler, Heather Field, rh Mr Frank Rotheram, Steve Pawsey, Mark White, Chris Fitzpatrick, Jim Ruane, Chris Penning, rh Mike Whittaker, Craig Flello, Robert Sawford, Andy Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Francis, Dr Hywel Sharma, Mr Virendra Perry, Claire Wiggin, Bill Gapes, Mike Sheerman, Mr Barry Pickles, rh Mr Eric Willetts, rh Mr David Glass, Pat Skinner, Mr Dennis Pincher, Christopher Williams, Mr Mark Glindon, Mrs Mary Slaughter, Mr Andy Poulter, Dr Daniel Williams, Roger Goodman, Helen Smith, rh Mr Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Williams, Stephen Green, Kate Smith, Angela Pritchard, Mark Williamson, Gavin Greenwood, Lilian Smith, Nick Pugh, John Willott, Jenny Gwynne, Andrew Smith, Owen Raab, Mr Dominic Wilson, Mr Rob Hain, rh Mr Peter Spellar, rh Mr John Randall, rh Sir John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hamilton, Fabian Straw, rh Mr Jack Reckless, Mark Wright, Simon Hanson, rh Mr David Stringer, Graham Hendrick, Mark Stuart, Ms Gisela Redwood, rh Mr John Yeo, Mr Tim Rees-Mogg, Jacob Hermon, Lady Tami, Mark Young, rh Sir George Reevell, Simon Heyes, David Thomas, Mr Gareth Zahawi, Nadhim Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Hillier, Meg Thornberry, Emily Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Tellers for the Ayes: Hilling, Julie Timms, rh Stephen Ruffley, Mr David Mr Ben Wallace and Hodge, rh Margaret Twigg, Derek Russell, Sir Bob John Penrose Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Twigg, Stephen Howarth, rh Mr George Umunna, Mr Chuka NOES Hunt, Tristram Vaz, Valerie Abbott, Ms Diane Ali, Rushanara Irranca-Davies, Huw Walley, Joan Jarvis, Dan Watts, Mr Dave Abrahams, Debbie Austin, Ian Johnson, rh Alan Whitehead, Dr Alan Alexander, Heidi Bailey, Mr Adrian Johnson, Diana Wilson, Phil 839 Regulatory Reform 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 840

Winnick, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: Transport for London Bill [Lords] Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Tom Blenkinsop and Wood, Mike Karl Turner Second Reading Wright, Mr Iain 5.5 pm Question accordingly agreed to. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I beg to move, Resolved, That the Bill be now read a Second time. That the draft Legislative Reform (Clinical Commissioning Groups) order 2014, which was laid before this House on 13 This private Bill is promoted by Transport for London. March 2014, in the last Session of Parliament, be approved. It was deposited on 26 November 2010, and ordered to commence in the House of Lords. It was read the First time in the other place on 24 January 2011, and it was read a Second time on 13 December 2011, when it was debated. It was a further two years until the Unopposed Bill Committee took place on 28 January 2014. It was read the Third time in the other place and transferred to this Chamber on 4 March, when the First Reading took place. It is therefore fair to say that the Bill has had a long gestation period. The Bill’s purpose is to provide Transport for London with a broader set of powers so that it can meet its business needs more flexibly and take advantage of more efficient arrangements for the stewardship of its financial affairs. Transport for London has identified various opportunities for maximising the value of its assets, but at the moment they cannot be fully realised unless it acquires new statutory powers or restrictions on the exercise of its current powers are removed. The Bill is also an opportunity to save money for taxpayers and fare payers. It has only four substantive clauses, but its principle is of importance to TfL, not least because the benefits deriving from the Bill will enable TfL to deliver much better value for money for the fare payer and the tax-paying public at large. The first three clauses broadly concern bringing the Bill into operation. The first substantive clause is clause 4, which allows Transport for London subsidiaries to borrow and grant security over assets and revenue streams, enabling TfL to have cheaper finance for projects and greater flexibility in how it borrows. TfL currently has the power to borrow and it has a borrowing programme, but it may offer lenders only a non-specific charge over revenues, not over properties. Borrowing on a secured basis will allow TfL subsidiaries to achieve lower interest rates than can be obtained through the Public Works Loan Board or through issuing bonds—the original aim under the legislation initiated by the previous Government—which are two of the significant debt financing options available to TfL. The clause will allow TfL to borrow money in circumstances where granting security is done predominantly or exclusively on a secured basis, and unsecured borrowing is either not possible or very costly. For example, property developments are usually financed by the lender taking a charge over the land being developed, which accordingly leads to a lower interest rate and means less risk to all parties. Clause 4 allows TfL’s subsidiaries to borrow for a discrete purpose and to structure security so that a creditor has recourse only against the subsidiary borrowing and not against TfL and its other subsidiaries. That protects the fare-paying and tax-paying public from any liability that arises on TfL debts. Clause 4 allows TfL to purchase subsidiary companies that already have secured debt. TfL will no longer be required to restructure secured debt when it purchases a 841 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 842 company with such existing debt. TfL had to acquire their status and is not unique to TfL. Indeed, many Tube Lines Ltd and Tube Lines Finance plc at very local authorities use limited partnerships for joint ventures expensive rates—I well remember the fiasco, as I was a and have been supported in doing so by the Treasury. member of the London assembly at the time. Had clause 4 then been in operation, TfL would have been Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I am spared significant costs, which ultimately have been fascinated by what my hon. Friend is telling the House, borne by fare payers and taxpayers and resulted in but surely there is a bigger picture. Would it be better lenders receiving enhanced value for their loans for nil for TfL effectively to be owned by the people of London? consideration to TfL. They could have shares in TfL, so it would therefore be Clause 4 includes important safeguards and limitations. funded to a larger extent by equity capital without the It provides that TfL subsidiaries must obtain the consent need to borrow. of the Secretary of State to grant security, except in respect of categories of property included in the schedule Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend for his suggestion. to the Bill, which Members can go through in detail if That would be a very radical move away from TfL’s they are interested. The exempt property may generally existing capability and the arrangements that are made. be described as property that is ancillary to TfL’s core I am sure the Mayor of London will be listening to the function of providing passenger transport services and debate and will consider that suggestion appropriately, includes such categories as property that is used for the but it is beyond the scope of Second Reading, which is purposes of car parking or retail units, for example. The limited regarding proposed borrowing changes. consent of the Mayor of London is always required, Transport for London’s subsidiary share of the profits irrespective of the type of property being changed. generated by a partnership will be liable to tax in the Clause 4 provides that the rights of existing TfL same way as if a company were used instead of a creditors are preserved in full. A secured creditor may limited partnership, thereby maintaining appropriate have priority over an existing creditor only where the tax transparency. Several individuals, and particularly existing creditor consents to the arrangement, so all the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport parties are protected. TfL subsidiary borrowings will Workers, have been concerned about whether the Secretary still be subject to the relevant provisions of the Local of State should give permission for such entities to be Government Act 2003. Borrowings must only be for entered into. I understand that a written undertaking any purpose relevant to a local authority’s functions or has been given to the hon. Member for Hayes and for the prudent management of its financial affairs. TfL Harlington (John McDonnell) and the RMT on the subsidiaries will also be subject to existing borrowing basis that an amendment will be introduced in Committee limits set by the Secretary of State, so the public sector that would require the Secretary of State’s permission borrowing requirement is protected and security is granted. for such an organisation to be permitted, which I hope Clause 5 expands TfL’s power to form different types answers one of the principal objections. of entities for the purpose of carrying out its functions. I understand that this is the most controversial clause Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Is for those who object to the Bill. I understand that the there an awareness of concerns that some of my local sponsors have had meetings with several of the individuals residents will have about proposals for the increased use who are concerned and that undertakings have been of the Acton depot? As my hon. Friend will know, there given in that respect. Currently, TfL may only form is a substantial residential community in that area, bodies corporate, which includes companies and limited which will not welcome the further increase in pollution liability partnerships. TfL is seeking a new power to that I suspect some of these activities will lead to. form, or join others in forming, limited partnerships and to invest in those partnerships once formed. TfL Bob Blackman: My hon. Friend is a doughty campaigner would like the option of using a limited partnership for her local residents, and she has been at the forefront when seeking third-party investment, which seems a of the campaign against environmental air pollution sensible process. and suchlike in her area. One objection to the Bill Pension funds and foreign entities are likely investors, comes from the hon. Member for Hammersmith so we are likely to see greater investment in joint (Mr Slaughter), whom we will hear from later, in relation arrangements with TfL, which will represent good value to the Earls Court development. I understand that part for the taxpayer. Those investors often prefer to invest of that process is to transfer the depot from the Earls in partnerships, rather than company structures, because Court area to Acton. Clearly, as sponsors TfL will have of the tax transparency that partnerships afford. If TfL to ensure that air and noise pollution is reduced considerably can offer a partnership as the joint venture vehicle, it is to answer the objections that my hon. Friend has related likely that there will be increased interest in the investment to the House. opportunity and that the maximum value of the asset Clause 6 seeks to expand the type of entities through will be realised. TfL proposes that it may form a limited which TfL’s commercial activities must be undertaken. partnership only for the purpose of carrying out its TfL is currently required to undertake profit-making functions, which prevents speculative arrangements. activities through a company limited by shares that is There is a limited tax benefit from using a limited either a subsidiary or a joint venture. The clause amends partnership, but it is confined to stamp duty land tax, that restriction to give TfL the option of using any type which is payable when land is transferred into a partnership. of entity that it has the power to form. In addition to a Stamp duty land tax is levied only on the proportionate company limited by shares, TfL would be able to use a share of the land being acquired by fellow partners, company limited by guarantee, a limited liability partnership, rather than the whole part. That benefit is conferred on or a limited partnership. Importantly, clause 6 preserves any partner of a limited partnership irrespective of the policy that TfL must undertake commercial activities 843 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 844

[Bob Blackman] The hon. Gentleman mentioned that TfL had offered an amendment inserting a new subsection in clause 5. through a taxable entity by requiring that a TfL subsidiary At some stage guidance must be issued to promoters of be member of a limited liability partnership, or a partner private Bills. TfL has been promoting the Bill since 2011; in a limited partnership. A company limited by guarantee it wrote to the RMT in May when it knew about some is itself liable to taxation. Clause 6 will enable TfL to of the specific objections and the petitions against the conduct its affairs more flexibly and at the same time Bill had gone in; we had a meeting on Friday afternoon; preserve tax transparency and ensure that the relevant and at 3 o’clock yesterday we received notice of an amount of tax is paid to the Exchequer. That will mean amendment. TfL’s parliamentary or advisory team needs that it can use the structure that best suits the opportunity, to be examined to see how we have reached this parlous and net the maximum value for money from its assets in state in debating the Bill. so doing. I would have expected TfL at least to consult everyone Clause 7 amends TfL’s hedging power, responding to who had petitioned against the Bill so far before introducing changes in the way financial institutions hedge risk the amendment. It was obvious that such an amendment away from specific commodity trading to trading by would be offered, because the lack of accountability to indices—for example, the use of an oil price index as the Secretary of State in clause 5 stood out, but rather opposed to a barrel of Brent crude oil—which protects arrogantly it thought it could force the Bill through in the hedging power considerably. It also gives TfL the the next few weeks without considering the main concerns capacity to enter into derivative investment when exposed expressed by the petitioners. Perhaps further advice should to risk by virtue of a contractual arrangement for the be given to TfL about how to behave when promoting provision by others of public transport services. For proposed legislation. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could example, movements in fuel prices, which obviously suggest that sending a “peace in our time” letter at affect TfL’s costs, would be protected. 3 o’clock on the day before the legislation is considered Currently, TfL’s hedging power may be applied only is simply unacceptable. to risks to which a TfL body is directly exposed. Clause 7 At this stage, I would expect TfL to withdraw the Bill, clarifies that it may use its hedging powers in respect of consult on the amendment and bring forward a properly its liability to any pension fund, for example. It is not drafted Bill, but I cannot see that happening, so let us proposed that TfL enter into any derivative investments have at least some general discussion today about why on behalf of the TfL pension fund, so members of that people are anxious about it. I think it is a matter of ever fund will be protected. It is not inconceivable, however, having confidence in Transport for London dealing that the fund might decide that a particular risk is with any property development. The hon. Member for acceptable, given that all its liabilities are long term and Harrow East mentioned problems with taking over tube that TfL effectively underpins the risks through an lines. Many of us have a long memory of what happened obligation to increase its contributions, if necessary, with TfL and its relationship with the public-private and that TfL might believe that the risk needs to be partnership, which was a disaster. Time and again, TfL mitigated. Clause 7 provides for that specific scenario officials and others came forward to advise us that PPP only. was an excellent way to raise funds and provide services, In summary, the Bill will assist TfL in securing the yet it was a complete disaster, which threatened £3 billion- most cost-effective borrowing possible. It will give TfL worth of investment in TfL. When we looked at the greater flexibility over how it structures its affairs, while figures, we found that £400 million had been spent on preserving the requirement that its profit-making activities consultants, accountants and legal advisers, first to set be taxed appropriately in the UK. It will improve TfL’s the thing up and then in some way to try to retrieve it hedging power by reflecting developments in the derivatives from the disaster it became. market and permitting the hedging of risks that arise I therefore think that this relatively small Bill of seven through contractual exposure and as a consequence of clauses has excited opposition among some members of its obligations to pension funds. It will allow TfL to the community and some Members of this House because maximise income and investment in its assets and to of lack of confidence in TfL’s ability to go into partnerships deliver better value for money for fare payers and with the private sector without either creating a disaster taxpayers, which we, as London MPs, crave every day. I or being ripped off. Many of us worry that TfL will be commend the Bill to the House. given new powers to enter into partnerships that are not secure. These are not limited partnerships—they are 5.22 pm not limited by guarantee or anything like that—but John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): It is straightforward partnerships in which I suppose the often a tactic in debates such as these to talk at length to main balance of interest will be with the private sector. delay a Bill as much as possible, to obfuscate and to try The concern is that, yet again, the public sector will be to prevent it from becoming law, but we do not need any left with the responsibilities. No matter what has been assistance for this Bill, as Transport for London has said about the hedging of some of the investments, been doing that for us since 2011. It has been a bizarre those responsibilities could be unlimited. process. People have examined the recent escapades of TfL in I reassure the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob private sector development, and I am sure my hon. Blackman) that I will not seek to divide the House and Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) vote against the Bill. I am a convener of the RMT will want to raise the issue of Earls Court, which does parliamentary group and we are assured that clause 7 not inspire confidence. In fact, if this legislation had will assist us in protecting the hedging process for been in place at that time, it would have been used pension funds, so there is one clause that might have a during the Earls Court development, which has aroused shred of justification. an amazingly sizeable opposition within the community. 845 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 846

I think it has cost the party of the hon. Member for into a partnership with, in particular, local authorities, Harrow East control of the local council, such was the in the hope of combining the advantages of improving scale of the opposition, and it has subjected local the transport network with the provision of residential residents to insecurity in their homes as well as raising homes. However, it seems from the examples that we concerns about the local community and the local have seen so far—notably in Earls Court—that the environment. The concerns about this Bill are real. residential homes will not necessarily be for local people: Let me run through some of those concerns. The Bill in fact, that applies to a relatively small percentage. will enable TfL to sell off or lease out land to developers Most of the sites are being used for speculative development, elsewhere and right across the capital in the attempt to and many are being bought by overseas landlords with link up with property speculators as a means of gaining a view to letting properties at extremely high rents. significant income—despite the track record of disasters People fear that if TfL is given these powers, it will go in the past. Discussions with the RMT and other unions on a development binge with the private sector throughout involved in TfL revealed their concern that such practices London, without taking into account either the needs could produce extensive speculation around TfL sites, of the transport infrastructure in the long term or the many of which should be secured for transport operations. needs of local communities. The Bill seems to take no Many within the industry raise with us the concern that cognisance of the need for TfL to bear in mind the this rush for short-term gain and short-term profiteering social criteria or social objectives relating to any future on individual sites will put at risk future developments development when using the powers. needed for TfL in the long term. As the hon. Member for Harrow East pointed out, The Mayor of London has rightly argued that we there also seems to be a lack of accountability in the should be expanding the transport network in the capital, case of some of the partnerships. We received that letter which means that some of the land currently in the on Friday specifically because concern after concern ownership of TfL will need to be used. It looks as had been raised consistently over the years—for instance, though individual developments will be allowed to take regarding the fact that even the Secretary of State did place, which will take the land away from transport use not have the authority to be consulted about the exercise into speculative development, as we have seen in the of some of these powers. We have now been told, in a Earls Court development. The hon. Member for Ealing letter that we received at 3.30 yesterday afternoon, that Central and Acton (Angie Bray), who is no longer in an amendment will be tabled to deal with that. It would the Chamber, mentioned that earlier. There is no guarantee have been helpful to have seen at least a draft of the that development of land in one area will not have amendment; all that we have is a letter of comfort, or consequences for other sites, and, as the hon. Lady said, discomfort, depending on people’s judgment of it . it certainly will consequences in her constituency. There If we look at TfL’s record of participation in is a real worry that giving Transport for London these developments with private sector entities, we see that it powers will result in a virtual frenzy in TfL—certainly is the commercial entity that has gained the profit and under the guidance of the current Mayor—to convert TfL that has been left with the responsibilities and, land in central London for uses other than transport often, the liabilities. In the case of some of the partnerships usage. that have already been entered into, ownership of some of the sites is so diffuse that it is difficult for the public, Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) in particular, to hold anyone to account when it comes (Lab): Is my hon. Friend saying that he believes that the to some aspects of the deals. leadership of Transport for London will sacrifice the long-term strategic interests of London’s transport Mr Chope: I am listening with fascination to the hon. infrastructure for short-term property development gain? Gentleman. Does he agree that the whole purpose of Transport for London should be to concentrate on its John McDonnell: What those who work in the industry core business—providing transport infrastructure for want is a consistent plan for the development of the the people of London? It is unlikely that Transport for transport infrastructure, but what the Bill does is give London will be capable of doing things that are not its more power to TfL to enter into speculative developments core business as well as they are done by specialists in on the sites that it owns, along with developers. In the those alternative businesses. case of Earls Court—on which I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith will wish to John McDonnell: The concern that many of us have is elaborate—we have seen property development for short- that Transport for London is not a property developer. term financial gain override the needs of the travelling It is not a developer with expertise in developing sites public and the need for long-term investment in the for high-value residential properties, yet that is the future of the transport infrastructure. That example venture that it seems to want to enter into across illustrates the loss of confidence in Transport for London London on most of its sites. There is an in-built lack of among the public that will result from its exercise of the expertise in Transport for London. Many of us think new powers, if they are given to it. We may well see a not only that Transport for London is putting sites at speculators’ charter in relation to properties that are risk by removing the possibility of their being used to currently in public ownership under the auspices of develop transport infrastructure, but that Transport for TfL. London as a whole will be at risk from some of the People are worried not only about the desire to gain liabilities that it will take on as a result of going into income, but about the fact that the current property limited partnerships, which are not protected, with developments are based largely on the selling off of developers. The Bill has consequences not just for specific land for the building of residential properties. Transport site development but for the stable funding of TfL in for London, as a public body, might well want to enter the long term. 847 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 848

[John McDonnell] Let me take Members to that new schedule. This is not a delaying tactic; I would like TfL to come back I say to the hon. Member for Harrow East that the with some clarity on all this. The schedule means that it Bill seems to be an attempt at a quick fix by an organisation can, without the Secretary of State’s approval, enter into that does not have the expertise to enter the activity that agreement with regard to subsidiaries to borrow and it wants to enter. I would be more convinced that it had charge against assets and revenue streams. As I have that expertise if the progress of the Bill had been more said, it can do that with regard to activities identified in efficient and effective. The legislation has been hanging this schedule without Secretary of State approval. Let around since 2011. At this late stage, the clauses have me give a selection of them. It can borrow against assets still not been drafted properly. Clause 4 has been redrafted including three times in that period. We have just received the “property related to a tolling scheme…property related to the letter of comfort on clause 5, but no amendment. That generation of power…property related to sponsorship activities does not inspire confidence. This organisation could sit being carried out by third parties”. down with some of the most rapacious developers in It can also borrow against the history of property development and secure deals “property related to the use of land for commercial letting”. without satisfying not just community interests but the long-term financial security of the sector. I have no idea of the scale that is envisaged, but it means that TfL, without Secretary of State approval, can I agree with the hon. Member for Christchurch become a sizeable landlord with commercial lets and (Mr Chope): when an organisation is called Transport borrow against those revenue streams. I would like TfL for London, it should concentrate on providing transport to say what is meant by this and I would welcome some for London, rather than go into property speculation in clarity as we move into the next stages. What is the scale this way. The argument may be that Transport for London of operation that it is looking at? is under financial pressure from the Government or others and needs to look at other ventures, but we must The schedule also refers in sub-paragraph (n) to take into account its record of working with the private “land which is not operational land”. sector to gain additional income or increase efficiency. Again, it would be useful to know from TfL what its There was the debacle of the public-private partnership definition of “not operational land” is and what the under the last Government—this is not a party political scale of that is in its portfolio. point. That demonstrates an inherent lack of expertise— I raise this because many of our individual constituencies I put it no more strongly than that—in the organisation; will contain pieces of TfL land which are set aside for it lacks the expertise to be able to do deals with the future transport developments, and it looks as though private sector that deliver the service and that avoid the this will enable TfL to raise revenue or borrow against scale of liabilities that we saw under that partnership. It those pieces of land without any Secretary of State approval was extraordinary. Members who were here may recall whatsoever. It would be useful to know the scale of that that throughout that period the House was not kept and to have some form of report setting out where these informed. On both sides of the House there was shock pieces of land are. They could be fairly sizeable. at the scale of the incompetence and risk that TfL Again, I would welcome clarity about the purpose of ventured into in those developments. this particular venture in this particular case. As Members Those are the main concerns. The organisation is have said earlier, we all have sites in our constituencies strapped for cash, by the sound of it, although the that TfL may want to borrow against and therefore Government advised us earlier in the year that it received develop with a private sector subsidiary. If it then a significant grant. However, TfL says that it is strapped removes a transport operation from that site, it will have for cash and needs another source of income. It is looking a knock-on effect on other sites because of the shift of at developing its sites to provide that and it wants to do functions, as is planned at Earls Court. I am concerned it through partnerships with the private sector. As a that there seems to be a lack of clarity from TfL in its result there are concerns that the overall operation of dialogue with the petitioners on some of these issues TfL will be put at risk. Those are the general concerns. with regard to the supply of information. Let me turn to the individual elements of the Bill. I In the presentation to the Unopposed Bill Committee advise Members to go to the minutes of evidence taken in the other House, clause 6 was explained as follows: before the Unopposed Bill Committee in the other “Clause 6 of the Bill will allow TfL to form or join with others House under Lord Sewel. TfL, with the Department for in forming limited partnerships. TfL would like to be able to use Transport present, took the noble Lord through the partnership structures to seek third-party investors in its property details of the Bill. As the hon. Member for Harrow East estate, and to manage secondary income generated from the estate.” has said, it went to clause 5 in particular, and it said: TfL mentioned, I think to reassure the noble Lord in “Clause 5 would allow TfL subsidiaries to borrow and charge charge of the Committee, that against assets and revenue streams. This will provide TfL with greater flexibility on how it borrows. Under secured borrowing, “Pension funds and development partners are identified as likely TfL subsidiaries may borrow for a discrete purpose, and the investors, who often prefer limited partnerships to other legal security could then be structured so that the creditor has recourse structures to invest in.” only against the subsidiary borrowing and not against TfL or I am sure that we will deal with this matter in Committee, other TfL subsidiaries.” but I would like to ask Members to look—if not today, It went on to say: then in Committee—at some of the concerns raised by “TfL subsidiaries may not grant security without the consent the petitioners about the concept of limited partnerships of the Secretary of State, other than in respect of those matters and, in particular, at a petition from Mr Richard Osband that are specified in a new schedule proposed to be included in the and other parties. Mr Osband was with us on Friday Bill.” when we met TfL. He is a knowledgeable person who The hon. Gentleman referred to that. has done a large amount of research in this area. 849 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 850

He admits that he is not a lawyer, but he has vast Mr Osband quoted to the TfL representative the issues experience in property development and commercial raised by the Law Commission on this matter. It said: activities. He tried to explain his concerns, which I now “The essential feature of a limited partnership is that the share, to TfL regarding limited partnerships. liability of the limited partners for the debts and obligations of The issue that Mr Osband raised was that a registered the partnership is limited to the amount of their contributions. limited partnership may not carry out any activities at This protection is lost if a limited partner takes part in management.” all. The partnership is between one partner and a general So as soon as TfL gets involved in the management of partner, and the general partner largely bears the main any element of the partnership and the development—I liabilities. If the other partner becomes active in some interpreted that, as did Mr Osband, as meaning any way in the management of the process, it will then form of management of even the individual site or become part of the definition of the general partnership some asset on it—it is no longer limited in its liabilities; and will bear liabilities. Mr Osband argued that the limited it becomes a general partner open to unlimited liability. partnership concept was opening up TfL to bearing I find it extraordinary that we have got to this stage in almost unlimited liabilities as a result of the process that the Bill—three years on from its original promotion by the legislation will enable it to enter into. On Friday, we TfL, nearly six months since the petitions were submitted were mystified as to why there was a need for limited on this issue and following a meeting on Friday—yet we partnerships. The legislation itself provides for the ability still have not had a response in any detail on Mr Osband’s to enter into partnerships with companies and others. valid criticisms of what has taken place in terms of the These would be proper legal entities and they would development of a concept of limited partnership at the ensure that the burden of risk was shared with the behest of the private developers. partner rather than falling significantly on to TfL. Let me quote from the briefing note that Mr Osband We are now at a late stage, and the petitioner has provided for TfL on Friday, although I will not use the made his position clear. On Friday, he was simply names of TfL officers, as to do so would be invidious. inviting TfL to get further legal counsel’s opinion, because He said that one of the officers dealing with this he and a number of others had contested the original “seems oblivious to the fact that it would be TfL’s Limited Partner counsel’s opinion that TfL had brought forward. I have that would be at risk of unlimited liability by virtue of TfL’s yet to hear a convincing argument from TfL as to why it participation in the management of the General Partner. Would would want to enter into limited partnerships, given the TfL really want to enter a Joint Venture with no management control?” element of risk involved. TfL said on Friday and in This is like choosing between the devil and the deep some of its other discussions with Mr Osband that this blue sea. One can enter into a limited partnership and was the preferred route of the developer. I am afraid one’s liabilities are limited if one is not part of the that that does not inspire confidence that any public management of that, but as soon as one enters into the investment in these developments would be secure. management one’s liabilities are unlimited, yet a public Ms Abbott: I think Transport for London would body such as TfL would be expected to have some form argue that that arrangement would be preferable to the of management responsibilities for the venture that is one-off sale of a freehold asset because it would guarantee taking place. So it automatically gets caught, as this is a a continuing revenue stream. Catch-22 situation. I cannot see what benefit there is for TfL, although there must obviously be benefits for the John McDonnell: Yes, that is one argument, but the individual developers who want to enter into these point of the legislation is to enable TfL to enter into not limited partnerships with TfL, because I fear that they only limited partnerships but proper partnerships. Clause 4 will seek to ensure that the liabilities are placed on TfL will enable TfL to enter into partnerships that are and not themselves. limited by guarantee, so why do we need a mechanism Again, let me cite what the Law Commission said, that is novel for TfL, that requires new legislation and which was quoted by Mr Osband on Friday. He provided that heightens the risk to TfL when there is already a the quote directly to the TfL officers and still has not vehicle available that will protect it? This mechanism had a response from them. The Law Commission said: appears to have been included purely and simply at the “We understand this lack of clarity is considered a major behest of some of the development companies that have defect in the law of limited partnerships in the United Kingdom.” approached TfL. That cannot be right. Surely the public purse needs to be protected in the best possible way. I Again, a structure has been proposed in the Bill which understand what my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney even the Law Commission now considers relatively North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) is saying, but opaque in its operation. it does not mean that the sole way in which TfL can I urge TfL, at this late stage, to reconsider the Bill and raise income streams is simply by a sell-off; it can enter whether or not the legislation—certainly the clauses up into proper partnerships with limited companies. The to clause 7—is actually needed, given the facilities that hon. Member for Harrow East mentioned, on a grander TfL has for forming partnerships under the existing scale, the ability to have shareholders and so on, but structures, which are flexible. My hon. Friend the Member that is the normal way of protecting one partner and for Hackney North and Stoke Newington has said that another: having a common shareholding in that way. I until now TfL has relied upon the sale of land to gain came at this on Friday afternoon, and I find it mystifying income, but that is no longer the case. It is able to enter that although Mr Osband’s petition and further detailed into wider partnerships and does not have to rely purely notes had been received, we had not been given by on such sales. This concept of limited partnership is today, even in the last throes of the briefings that were introducing a real vulnerability to the tax payer—the flying around yesterday, some form of assurance about London council tax payer in particular—and the the legal protections that would be provided as a result Government who fund Transport for London. I do not of introducing the availability of limited partnerships understand why TfL wishes to persist with this clause of to TfL. the Bill. 851 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 852

[John McDonnell] operation of the rail transport network have been raised and, as I have mentioned before, there is an increasing I am extremely worried that the general public will not threat to social and affordable housing. Indeed, there is be able to scrutinise development deals if limited even a public health threat because of the air pollution partnerships are established, and, even with the Secretary caused by the increased activity around that site, and a of State’s approval now being floated by TfL as an threat to some of London’s cultural heritage. amendment, that there will not be sufficient political Concern has been expressed about the lack of an accountability. My hon. Friend the Member for independent economic impact assessment on the Hammersmith will cite the example of what happened development and a lack of accountability to local people at Earls Court. On the examples that we have so far, this and the elected local authority in its current form. This issue of commercial confidentiality has prevented, without is a shining example of how TfL, although I am sure it resort to law in many instances, the ability of members has the best of intentions, can be driven by political of the community or individuals who are affected by motives. I know that there have been statements about developments from gaining information on the partnerships the nature of the people that some politicians want to —their purposes and their operations. When redacted live in the area. Mr Greenhalgh, in particular, wanted documents have been offered, they have been redacted to remove working-class people from the area and to in such a way to make them virtually meaningless. I populate it with wealthier people. That was one of the worry that this Bill offers the potential for a whole series statements he made publicly, but, regardless of that, of disastrous ventures by TfL on site after site. TfL seems unable to defend itself against such political The hon. Member for Harrow East also mentioned diktats from above and demonstrated extreme incompetence taxation. At the meeting on Friday, representatives of in its negotiations with developers and extreme ruthlessness the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport in preventing local people from having a say in the Workers said that they were concerned about ensuring development. That has resulted not just in a degrading the transparency of the operation not just of the partnership exploitation of public assets but a debacle. itself, but of the individual partners who have participated That is the example we would give of Transport for so far under existing structures. They were concerned London’s incompetence in dealing with a major strategic about their willingness to abide by and adhere to tax site and with speculative property developers. If this legislation in this country and also to some of their legislation goes through, developers in London will responsibilities. At least one company that was mentioned binge at the expense of the public sector and TfL in on Friday and that TfL entered into a partnership with particular. The land assets of TfL have been developed is based in a tax haven and is seeking to avoid taxation over nearly a century and they are land holdings specifically as a result of its established structure. Again, that is not for development of the transport infrastructure. They uncommon, but it is not something that a public body are not there for speculative development by TfL to such as TfL should be encouraging. Furthermore, it is gain some short-term income at a long-term cost to not something that we should be seeking to facilitate Londoners. The Bill will risk the long-term planning of even further by putting forward this limited partnership our transport infrastructure, increase the risk of the proposal. liability for property speculation falling on TfL and The concern is that if such a company is willing to have an impact on the public purse. operate from a tax haven to avoid taxation, it is quite We gave these warnings on the public-private partnership likely and quite able to walk away more easily from the and we were ignored. We were ignored by the previous liabilities on risks if any venture becomes problematic Government and, in fact, we were derided for those in the future. Again, it provides us with another example warnings that came from the RMT, the TSSA and the of questionable judgment by TfL. Going into a partnership other unions that were working on the ground on with a company that is based in a tax haven and that is London transport. They warned us and we had report seeking to avoid its taxation responsibilities does not after report that TfL was being ripped off in its dealings inspire confidence in the ability of TfL to develop with the private sector and that there would be a catastrophe, future deals. Such practice may not be unlawful, but it is and that is exactly what happened. The PPP became a immoral, and that point was put to TfL on Friday. disaster: the companies had to be brought into public Those are many of the concerns that have been raised ownership and control, we lost at least £400 million in the discussions so far. My hon. Friend the Member through payments to advisers, accountants, lawyers and for Hammersmith will go into some detail about what so on and we put TfL at risk. I think that this is what has happened at Earls Court. If Members want an will happen in this case. example of what could happen under this Bill because The work force, with their expertise, and those who of the lack of protection within it and because of the work deep within the heart of TfL are warning that the structure that has been put forward with regard to the property speculation promoted by the Bill will put the limited partnership, Earls Court is a classic example. In long-term infrastructure of transport in London at risk. fact, this Bill was designed to enable TfL to go into a As I say, I will not oppose the Bill this evening because limited partnership specifically with regard to Earls there is at least one clause on the hedging of protection Court. TFL was not able to do that, because the legislation for pensions that is supported by some elements of the had been delayed for so long, but it went into another work force, but I hope that by the next stage of our form of partnership that has exposed the local community debate TfL will either withdraw some of the clauses, to devastation, almost, and that has exposed TfL to making the Bill workable, or at least provide some form being ripped off for the development. of accountability and set objectives and parameters Overall, in that example we have seen a complete lack about the speculative developments that can be undertaken of transparency about the discussions with the limited as a result of the powers that TfL will be given. Unless company. The potential issues with that site and the safe we set those parameters, London’s transport infrastructure 853 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 854 could be put at risk, and we might face significant costs 6.9 pm and burdens. I hope that the House will fulfil its The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport responsibilities by not taking Transport for London’s (Mr Robert Goodwill): I congratulate my hon. Friend assertions at face value, but will be looking at the expert the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) on moving evidence with which we have been provided. Second Reading of this private Bill that will enable TfL I advise hon. Members to read some of the petitions to expand its financial freedom to use practices and against the Bill submitted by individuals with expert mechanisms it cannot currently access. We recognise knowledge of the operation of Transport for London that it will allow TfL to release greater value from its and the consequences of its developments so far. Given financing arrangements—a principle we welcome at a that TfL has brought forward, at this late stage, its letter time when we are continually seeking efficiencies and of comfort, it would be useful if we advised it that the value for money in public spending. petitioners should be not only contacted, but invited to The outcome of the 2013 spending review was a 25% petition again, if they wish, specifically with regard to cut in TfL’s operational funding from central Government, the amendment to which the letter refers. Although we and we have been clear that the Government’s aim is to are yet to see that amendment—we have received only reduce TfL’s operational funding over time to zero. the letter—I would welcome the petitioners’ views on That, on top of earlier reductions in TfL’s operational that proposal. I have so far received only a couple of grant, will require it to deliver £16 billion of savings e-mails from those who attended Friday’s meeting, although over the period to 2021. TfL has implemented a savings I know that others have an opinion, and their view is and efficiency programme that will allow it to continue that the amendment proposed in the letter would not to invest in infrastructure while at the same time holding save the Bill. They believe that the Bill should be opposed, down fares. TfL has already identified nearly £12 billion despite TfL’s assurances. As I said, I shall not oppose of savings to 2020-21, but it still needs to identify the Bill today, but unless we get a definitive view from further savings. I understand from TfL that the private Transport for London on some of the questions raised Bill could realise in excess of £50 million in immediate in the debate, unless we have clarity about some of the benefits by improving its hedging power, enabling it to Bill’s provisions and unless we understand how to set borrow money cost-effectively, and allowing it to make parameters for TfL’s operations in this speculative area more of its assets. of development, we will oppose it at a later stage. We believe that giving TfL greater financial flexibility I treat the Bill with real scepticism. It could be a will give it the opportunity to run its business more speculator’s charter for the Mayor of London, whoever efficiently, but in doing so we expect it to adopt a that might be in the future, and that may well be at a responsible approach in the use of its new powers. I am cost to London’s council tax payers. I warn the House pleased that the controversial clause on the disposal of that, as was the case with the PPP, the Bill could be a operational land, which was a matter of concern to disaster for the taxpayer overall, and if it goes through, their lordships, has been dropped from the Bill. I understand I fear that the Mayor and the Transport for London will that the hon. Members for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) place a sizeable bill before us in a couple of years and for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) still because we will have to bail them out for the losses that have concerns, but I hope that they are reassured to know they have incurred due to speculative development. that TfL has agreed to table an amendment in Committee To echo what was said by the hon. Member for to clause 5 that will require TfL to seek the Secretary of Christchurch (Mr Chope), TfL should concentrate on State’s agreement when it wishes to form a limited providing transport for London. It is not a property company for commercial property development purposes. developer. If there was the expertise in TfL to carry out Subject to what I have said and taking into account negotiations on such matters, an element of confidence the fact that the measure will deliver real savings and might be inspired in us, but its track record, especially at efficiencies for council tax payers and fare payers in Earls Court, demonstrates not only that such expertise London, I hope the Bill makes progress today, enabling is lacking, but that it does not even understand that it us to explore in Committee some of the highly pertinent lacks that expertise. Property speculators run rings around points made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington. it time and again, and those speculators then go off to international festivals to market sites that were once owned by the public of London. It is scandalous that 6.12 pm speculators can make vast profits out of public asset in Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): We such a way because of either the connivance or gullibility have already heard some important contributions to of the people responsible in TfL. today’s debate, but may I begin my speech by saying I urge hon. Members to pay more direct attention to that it is a pleasure to see my hon. Friend the Member the Bill. There are few Members in the Chamber today, for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) in his place—well, which I understand, given events in Scotland and elsewhere, almost in his place—this afternoon? I know he has but the Bill could be as catastrophic for London as followed the Bill’s progress closely and that it affects a elements of what might happen following the referendum matter of great concern to his constituents. It is important in Scotland. We might not only be presented with an not only that Hammersmith has a Labour MP, but that extraordinary bill in the future, but lose considerable Hammersmith and Fulham is now a Labour-run local assets on which we were hoping to build a modern authority. It was supposed to be the Prime Minister’s network for transport in London. While the Bill is in favourite council. Well, the people of Hammersmith Committee, I hope that we can find sensible amendments delivered a resounding verdict on that project last May. that will allow us to set parameters in the Bill to assure The Earls Court development in my hon. Friend’s us that this leap in the dark will not lead to a future constituency is close to the heart of many people following disaster. today’s debate, and I will discuss it in more detail 855 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 856

[Lilian Greenwood] authorities and other representative groups have dealt directly with TfL, they need to have confidence that shortly, but first I want to say a few words about past agreements will not be rendered void just because a Transport for London and its current legal framework. limited liability partnership has been formed. The Greater London Authority Act 1999 was one of Given the concerns that my hon. Friends have rightly the longest pieces of legislation passed to date, containing raised, Labour Members expect further reassurances 35 schedules and more than 400 clauses. It was also one from Transport for London and the Secretary of State. of the most important Acts passed in the first term of The way in which these powers are used must be subject the last Labour Government. For too long, London’s to scrutiny. It is vital that TfL fully engages with political governance had been subject to sudden changes communities and local councils as this Bill progresses imposed by Westminster. Since the second world war, through Parliament. the general pattern was of political interference, and by 1997 there was a serious investment backlog. The transformation since then of the underground, London’s 6.17 pm buses and the overground rail network is there for all to Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): As the see. hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) It is to Transport for London’s credit that under said, these extensive powers must be subject to scrutiny devolved management it has risen to the challenge of and any safeguards in relation to their being exercised meeting the rapid rise in demand for public transport. It must be included in the Bill. We do not want things to is also overseeing the successful delivery of Crossrail, happen in future that we had not expected, because, and just yesterday a new consultation was published on perhaps, we did not think that Transport for London or proposals to extend the Gospel Oak and Barking line to its subsidiaries would behave in a particular way. That is Barking Riverside. It should be acknowledged that over why I welcome the fact that we have a full Second the past 15 years TfL has delivered substantial service Reading debate on this Bill. The promoters of a lot of improvements. private Bills that come before this House get agitated As we have heard, this private Bill has a long history. because some of us think that such Bills should be There have been some changes since it was first introduced subject to scrutiny, but an increasing number of our in 2011, but the current proposals can be summarised as colleagues now recognise that without such scrutiny we transferring additional borrowing powers to TfL’s and our constituents can be taken for a ride. subsidiaries and allowing them to enter into limited I do not represent a London constituency, although liability partnerships under clause 5. We are not opposed many years ago I was the leader of a London borough, to the principle of allowing greater commercial freedoms so I take an interest in what happens in London—and to Transport for London, but it has to be recognised of course I am resident in London during much of the that there are particular sensitivities around the Earls week. I go along with the hon. Lady in giving a lot of Court development, especially as Hammersmith and credit to TfL for the improvements in transport in Fulham council is now seeking discussions with the London over recent years. There have been enormous developer and carrying out a review of its contractual improvements in the reliability of the services provided, commitments. the extent and range of those services, and the sensitive TfL is the freeholder for Earls Court exhibition centre. way in which the Mayor and TfL have responded to the The history of that planning application, which the developing needs of the populace of London. That is Mayor of London granted last year, is well known. In all the more reason for us to ask why, given that TfL has this climate, the powers contained in clause 5 have made such an enormous amount of progress, we should attracted a great deal of scrutiny. It is therefore reasonable want to encourage it, through this Bill, to move its focus to ask that in this development and others, TfL should away from its main task and responsibility, which is to seek to gain the best value for taxpayers’ money while provide transport for the people of London. maintaining a commitment to providing decent, affordable My hon. Friend the Minister set out the financial homes and taking all other social and environmental context and made it clear that, ultimately, Transport for factors into consideration, including the future needs of London will need to be self-sufficient and not dependent the transport network, as my hon. Friend the Member on grants from the national taxpayer. I am sure my for Hayes and Harlington said in his detailed and constituents will be pleased with that objective, because knowledgeable speech. it will save them money as national taxpayers and TfL will have to fund its future operations from the income Ms Abbott: Is my hon. Friend arguing that the Bill it receives from fare payers, its investments and operational will have an effect on Earls Court? My understanding is efficiencies. I am all in favour of that. that the deal in relation to Earls Court, whether it was a I was interested to hear my hon. Friend say that, of good deal or a bad deal, has already been done. the £16 billion saving that TfL needs to find by 2021, £12 billion has already been identified. He then said, Lilian Greenwood: My concern is that the Earls Court however, that he thought the Bill might save TfL £50 million, development is one of the issues potentially affected by which is of a rather different order from the actual gap this Bill. I think there are further discussions to be had. between the two figures, namely £4 billion. Perhaps that provides a bit of a precedent, or an example TfL should try to save some money. It has a lot of of why concerns are being raised about this Bill. assets and if some of them are not core assets that it It is also reasonable to ask that TfL’s subsidiaries requires for its operations, the first port of call should maintain a commitment to those public service values surely be to try to sell off those surplus assets so that even when they are acting in partnership with commercial they can be utilised by other people. This Bill, however, developers under the terms of the Bill. Where local seems to be designed to discourage TfL from selling off 857 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 858 its surplus assets. It encourages it to put them into release a lot of revenue and capital, we need to be vehicles such as subsidiary companies and limited suspicious. At the end of the day, the only way to get partnerships, which are not open to the same public better quality transport in London is by investing in it, scrutiny as TfL through its annual accounts. Obviously, which means using money from fare payers or taxpayers, that raises public accountability concerns. or encouraging Transport for London to reduce its The Bill’s promoters have a heavy burden of responsibility costs and find alternative revenue streams. Of course, and they will have quite a job to persuade the hon. one way would be to sell off surplus assets, and we Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) should use the provisions of the Bill to encourage that, and me. We do not always agree on political issues, but rather than to discourage it. the fact that we are both expressing concerns from I do not know about the situation in Earls Court different angles should cause TfL to think what can be exhibition centre. I have no specialised knowledge about done about it. it, and I look forward to hearing from the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), who represents the Ms Abbott: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Hammersmith and Fulham interest in it. As a result of the last London borough elections, the issue of political Mr Chope: It is a delight to give way to the hon. Lady. risk has once again raised its head. The people engaged in that project thought that the council was benignly Ms Abbott: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for supportive of their proposal, but now that there has giving way. The fact that he and my hon. Friend the been a change of council, the new democratically elected Member for Hayes and Harlington agree on something council has said that it wants to revisit it all. I do not is a sign either that it is absolutely the wrong thing to do know the extent to which the council can do that, or or that it might be absolutely the right thing to do. I do whether the contract was already a done deal. not understand why the hon. Gentleman is so opposed to TfL attempting to create arrangements for a long-term Mr Slaughter: I have resisted intervening because I revenue stream rather than a one-off profit from simply want to get my full whack of time, but I have to come in selling the asset. As the taxpayer subsidy goes down, on that point. There was always going to be a political surely it is prudent for TfL to try to ensure long-term risk in relation to that massive site—it covers two boroughs, revenue streams for itself, which is what the arrangements with the mayoralty and various other interests, such as are all about. They may not be perfect, but how can the that of TfL—because it was a 20-year project. TfL hon. Gentleman deny that that is a reasonable aspiration signed up to a 20-year project, and tied its hands. It, for TfL? above all people with political masters, should have known that that was the case. Mr Chope: The short answer to the hon. Lady’s intervention is: once bitten, twice shy. I think that most Mr Chope: That is fascinating. I am glad that I gave of us in this House—certainly those of us who have way to the hon. Gentleman. When there is talk about served for a certain time—feel that we were bitten by the reducing risks—the statement from the promoters states enthusiasm of successive Governments for the private that the Bill will reduce risk and the costs of interest—we finance initiative and the public-private partnership. We need to look at such assertions with quite a lot of were told that they were new ways of financing our scepticism. public services and public infrastructure and that they To finish my point about TfL as the freeholder of could only be good news for everybody. I speak as a Earls Court exhibition centre, let me ask why it is still member of the Conservative party, which promoted the freeholder: why does TfL need to own Earls Court PFI, but what a disaster some of those PFI projects exhibition centre, and why does TfL not sell it? I do not have turned out to be, largely because people thought know whether it could sell it to Hammersmith and they could get something for nothing and that, instead Fulham council. In my view, TfL’s core business should of saving on revenue expenditure, they could start borrowing not be to own an exhibition centre. If that had been the and use rather obscure vehicles and arrangements to do situation in my days in Wandsworth, we would very so. Then, however, after reading the small print, we much have regarded it as one of those things to sell and found out that, instead of being transferred, the risk—that get rid off to benefit local taxpayers, on the basis that if was the principle the Treasury kept talking about in a freehold asset is sold, the receipts from it can be relation to PFI: it said it was not possible to have PFI utilised immediately for the vendor’s top priorities. If unless there was a transfer of risk—had actually been TfL did not own the freehold of Earls Court exhibition retained. centre, would it think of buying it? That is the sort of As a London Member, the hon. Lady will be all too question that should be asked by those people who well aware of the problems in London associated with become star-struck by the idea that they are charged PFI/PPP projects in the health service, which have been with developing some great property. a disaster in many respects. The people or the patients There has always been a glamour associated with whom we should have helped are finding that the services owning assets. Municipalisation, whether of race courses they want are not now as good as they would like or arts and entertainment centres, was often associated because of the costs of those projects, which in some with the desire of the mayor and councillors to be able cases continue to be a millstone around the necks of to get free tickets and hospitality by using what they saw quite a lot of hospital trusts. as their role in looking after those important assets. My I have answered the hon. Lady by referring to a philosophical view is that they should never have had different sphere, but as soon as people start talking those assets in the first place. They should have sold about new practices and methods, as the Minister did them off and then enjoyed going out, paying for a drink when he began his remarks about how the Bill will themselves and saying, “Great. We’ve reduced the size 859 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 860

[Mr Chope] and Fulham, and because we are buying them from Hammersmith and Fulham, if there are any difficulties, of the local state and its apparatchiks in our area.” I am the money it owes us will be guaranteed by the suspicious and sceptical about all of this. There are Government.” The Department had to make clear to some fine people working for TfL, but if they think that those foreign banks that if Hammersmith and Fulham, they have skills that can be deployed in the property sector, or any other council, defaulted on its obligations, the they should go and get a job in the property sector. Government were not going to stand behind it. I am particularly concerned about clause 4, which is I fear that some of the same thinking is creeping into the first clause of substance in the Bill. It proposes that this Bill, which is that in order to get over the problem what TfL cannot do itself should be allowed to be done of the £4 billion shortfall we should allow the proliferation by its subsidiaries. Members often speak of their concern of these vehicles. As the hon. Member for Hayes and about Henry VIII clauses, and this clause is the private Harlington pointed out, if one couples clause 4 with the Bill equivalent. It would allow TfL to set up subsidiaries schedule, the mind boggles at all the things that could at its own behest without any accountability, and those be charged by a TfL subsidiary without the consent of subsidiaries could then be used to do what TfL itself is the Secretary of State—always remembering, of course, not allowed to do. Why are we countenancing that? that under its existing powers TfL is not allowed to Why should the original safeguards, which were written subject those things to a charge. If that measure were to into primary legislation—section 164(a) of the 1999 go through unamended, it would create the potential Act—be removed? My hon. Friend the Member for for enormous mischief not just to London taxpayers, Harrow East (Bob Blackman) said that if one had to go but to people who use TfL facilities. If Transport for to the Public Works Loan Board or get bonds, one London gets strapped for cash, it will have to put up its would have to pay higher interest rates than those one fares, reduce staffing or whatever, so the situation would could get using these new subsidiaries as vehicles, but I not be without consequences. think that is an unproven assertion. Let us consider I have a number of concerns about the Bill and I other ways in which those things could be done. hope that some of them can be ironed out during the Clause 5 would extend the power to invest in subsidiary opposed Bill Committee. Underlying them all is that companies to include limited partnership vehicles of fact that I think it would be better if Transport for one sort or another. Why are we doing that? Surely it London concentrated on its core business and sought would be much more transparent for TfL to set up a more equity investment—in other words, shareholder limited company that is properly accountable and then investment. Why does Transport for London not set up ensure that it produces accounts so that people can keep a subsidiary company, as it can do at the moment, and an eye on what it is doing. As soon as we get into the say, “We are going to sell shares in this limited company murky waters of partnerships and deal making that is to the people of London”? Why not sell shares to users not subject to public scrutiny, the people are not well of Transport for London services? Why does it not raise served. It might be that among the well-paid employees that sort of money and, for good measure, say, “As an of TfL there is a group of people who are much better incentive, we will throw the assets of the Earls Court than the directors of British Land at making deals to exhibition centre into the subsidiary company”? People enhance the value of land in their ownership, but I who enjoy going to exhibitions at Earls Court could buy somehow doubt it. Rather than encouraging TfL to into that subsidiary company and perhaps get discounted aspire to set up subsidiaries that are like British Land, entry prices, or whatever. we should say that if it wants to set up subsidiaries, they There is a lack of imagination in some of this, possibly should be proper companies that, as under the existing because this process has been dragged out for so long law, are subject to limited liability and open to that people have got into a tramline way of looking at public scrutiny. it. Why do we not think more radically? Why do we We know that when we allow public organisations need to be stuck with TfL, however good it is, and the effectively to engage in devices to get themselves out of same structure? Why do we not allow British taxpayers a short or longer term financial fix, it often results in and property owners to buy shares in TfL, instead of tears. I remember when Hammersmith and Fulham was using this sort of device, which will probably give the mortgaging all its lamp standards. It sold them—was it benefits to sovereign wealth funds, foreign banks, Russian to a Japanese bank? I cannot remember—and it then oligarchs and whoever? They will be benefiting at the leased them back because it obviously needed to have expense of the people of London. As somebody who lamp standards. Those were the early days of what one was born in London, has spent a lot of time in London might describe as a sort of barmy behaviour by Labour and had the privilege of leading a London council, I councils—that was one of the things that ultimately have the interests of the people of London at heart. contributed to Hammersmith and Fulham becoming a Conservative-controlled authority. 6.41 pm There are examples of councils selling their assets then leasing them back and paying a lot more for them Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I thank in the long term, but in the short term it looks good on my hon. Friends the Members for Hayes and Harlington the accounts. The council has a capital receipt from the (John McDonnell) and for Nottingham South (Lilian sale of the asset, although local taxpayers will have to Greenwood) and the hon. Member for Christchurch pay for the next 50 years for the consequences. That was (Mr Chope) for their excellent contributions, not least at a time when the Department of the Environment, as because they will allow me to be more succinct. it was then, made clear to the banks that we would not I was impressed by the knowledge of the hon. Member guarantee those assets. The banks thought, “Fantastic. for Christchurch of landownership in west London. I We will buy all these lamp standards from Hammersmith do not have the same knowledge about Christchurch. 861 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 862

Without wishing to go off on a tangent, however, I must under planning development in London. It will remain say that his knowledge of politics in west London is not so until the High Speed 2 site, also in my borough, so good. Though other councils did, I do not think that comes along. Hammersmith and Fulham council ever engaged in the As to the history, it has been pointed out that the selling off and buying back of lamp posts. It indulged in legislation for the scheme was presented to Parliament capital market swaps, which is perhaps more historically on 29 November 2010. It had an uneventful Second famous, but that began under a Conservative council, Reading on 13 December 2011, largely because it was as I know because I was chair of finance and was below the radar for many people. Before I come on to involved in unravelling all that, and we were granted, as the current petitioners, I must thank the then petitioner a privilege for doing so, 15 years of glorious rule Mark Ballaam on behalf of the West London Line thereafter. He has conflated political events, therefore, group, which is a fantastic organisation. It would be but I forgive him because his summation of the arguments absolutely wrong to call it an amateur group. It had against the Bill was so good. such a degree of professional expertise that it became I would be interested in this Bill in any event, being a the de facto guardian of the railway system in west London MP and given the many concerns, which I will London, doing a huge amount to promote it. not repeat, raised by my hon. Friend the Member for The group spotted what TfL was up to and got its Hayes and Harlington and the hon. Member for petition in. Were it not for that group, I am not sure Christchurch, who from their different political perspectives whether we would ever have got the first major concession. have put their finger on the issues at stake, but I have an The Bill came before the Unopposed Bill Committee of additional and perhaps more specific—some might say the House of Lords, which my hon. Friend the Member parochial—interest. I can demonstrate that the origin for Hayes and Harlington has mentioned. It is peculiar of the proposals lie in the Earls Court-West Kensington when we go back and look at these documents: there development in west London and might well end there, had to be a corrected transcript because the first entry unless things happen. in Hansard showed that there was no debate or discussion I shall say more about that development in a moment, at all. In fact, we have quoted from the quite substantive but first I want to resolve the point raised by my hon. debate that took place. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) about, “Hasn’t the Earls Court There is a slight confusion because the clause numbers deal already been done?”. Yes, part of the deal—concerning have changed. What was discussed in the earlier debate the exhibition centres—has been done, to the extent as clause 5 is now clause 4. As my hon. Friend the that the partnership agreement has been entered into, Member for Hayes and Harlington rightly pointed out, but the other major part of the site, also owned by TfL, what appeared to be a major concession was not quite the Lillie Bridge depot, is a minimum of five or six years such a concession because of the schedule that lists all down the line. the circumstances under which TfL can continue to dispose of land. In any event, what happened at Earls Court is highly relevant to the Bill, and had the developer not pushed It was said to the Chair of that Lords Committee: to get on with the proposals and had TfL not delayed “My Lord, I would mention that following discussions with the Bill, I suspect that the original idea would have been DfT, TfL has proposed certain amendments to Clause 5”— exactly the sort of vehicle envisaged in clause 5 and that now clause 4, the clause would have been used for the first part of the scheme. “which are contained in the filled-up Bill before the Committee today, and those amendments provide that TfL subsidiaries may not grant security without the consent of the Secretary of State, John McDonnell: For the record, I can confirm that other than in respect of those matters that are specified in a new point. On 6 May, TfL and Sir Peter Hendy CBE wrote schedule proposed to be included in the Bill.” to the RMT that TfL Yes, there was a concession, but it might have been “may only use a company limited by shares as the joint venture more apparent than real. It was to deal effectively with vehicle”. the objections at that stage in January this year. The So that facility is open to them. He wrote: issue limped on until it arrived here, with no urgency or hurry at all as far as I can see—until very recently when “The new powers will be of most relevance to joint ventures with the private sector involving property development”, things take on a frenetic aspect. and he With the petitioners, I have had three lengthy meetings with TfL, the last of which was attended by my hon. “anticipated that any such projects will be done using a partnership structure. Indeed, the choice of joint venture vehicle for the Earls Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington last Court development would have been different if TfL had the Friday. That is good; I am glad that it is prepared to put powers it is now seeking.” in that time. It is an important Bill to TfL and it has been courteous throughout the process. That is true, but it concerns me that, having allowed things to drift for Mr Slaughter: I am juggling a lot of papers here, so I four years, it has now taken on this extraordinary am most grateful that my hon. Friend had that letter to degree of urgency. Similarly, it concerned me when the hand to confirm the point. hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) said It is important to note the ideas and the opportunity that we should support the Bill because it would make that came out of the Earls Court scheme. Let us be clear public-private partnerships run rather more smoothly. I that this scheme is the Tennessee Valley authority in all do not think we want anything like PPP to be run more of this: it is not just a scheme; it is a magic scheme—an smoothly. There are lessons for us to learn that we do £8 billion development and currently the largest site not want to be repeated in the context of this Bill. 863 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 864

[Mr Slaughter] TfL manages its property portfolio in the best interests of the farepayer with the aim of keeping fares down Yesterday, the letter arrived, as has been said, following and, indeed, reducing them, I do not object to its the Friday meeting. It said: finding ways of establishing the best return on assets, “We have considered the comments made at the meeting provided that those ways are legitimate and sound. In regarding clause 5 and the concerns expressed and, consequently, some cases, that might involve not selling an asset and TfL intends to propose an amendment to clause 5. The amendment investing the money at what would possibly be a low will insert a new sub-clause in clause 5 which will provide that TfL rate of return, but embarking on some form of joint must obtain the Secretary of State’s consent to form, promote or venture. However, let me now deal with the rest of what assist a limited partnership when the purpose for it doing so is to I am against. I promise that, before I finish, I will carry on the development of land otherwise than for the purposes of TfL’s functions.” respond to the hon. Gentleman’s specific point about whether sales per se are simply a better option, and Well, so be it. That is another attempt to deal with the whether we trust them. objections that have been received in an emollient way, albeit at the eleventh hour. The concession has been There is a sense in which I would say yes to that. I do made, and it is right that it should have been made, just not want to be rude to TfL’s management, because I as it was right that it should have been made in relation think that many of them are very good at what they do, to what is now clause 4. However, it misses the point of particularly on the technical side. On the whole, however, our objection—at least, my objection, and what I they are no match for the major property developers of understand to be the objection of the petitioners—which London. I am afraid that the same could be said about is that we do not think that this is the right approach for local authority regeneration and planning officers. Property TfL to take. The fact that there will be a check is developers see them coming and fleece them for everything helpful, but we would prefer the clause not to be included that they have, which is very unfortunate. It is particularly in the Bill at all. unfortunate because it is our money. What is presented in the first instance as a way of maximising return for John McDonnell: During the meeting that my hon. the farepayer ends up with the poor old farepayer— Friend and I attended on Friday, one of the points and the taxpayer—picking up the major share of the raised—and it has been raised by the hon. Member for bill. I think that when I say a little about Earls Court the Christchurch (Mr Chope)—concerned not the principle House will understand exactly what I mean, because of limited partnership, but the need to establish some that is the best example. sense of the scale of these operations. In July, my hon. It surprised me to learn that, unlike local authorities Friend had a meeting with a Mr Graeme Craig of and other public bodies, TfL does not have a duty of Transport for London, during which Mr Craig said that best value under section 123 of the Local Government TfL had 5,700 acres of land across London, and Act 1972. It says that it still tries to obtain best value for approximately 800 archways. There was a list of schemes a site—presumably from a commercial point of view as involving South Kensington, Baker Street, Old Street, much as for any other reason—but for a public body Oxford Circus, Victoria, Golders Green and Northwood such as TfL this is a balancing exercise. stations. Whether we look at the schedule, which relates Of course we want TfL to maximise the return on its to charges against land, or whether we look at clause 5, assets in the interests of its core business, as my hon. which provides for developments by a limited partnership, Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said, but we are talking about a huge property portfolio for we also want it, as a public body under democratic potential development with the private sector. control, to behave responsibly in environmental, social and economic terms. I fear that we are getting the worst Mr Slaughter: Absolutely. I do not know whether I of both worlds. We are getting poor-quality development, am right in suggesting that Earls Court was the fons et poor-quality decision making and poor-quality financial origo of that, but in any event the potential for it across return. Therefore, the point about TfL’s area of competence London is huge. Moreover, as the hon. Member for is a serious one. I do not make it as a debating point to Christchurch pointed out, the potential for it to go have a go at TfL. I wish it every success. But I have seen wrong is huge, and I think that that is what is going to the evidence with my own eyes over many years. happen. Another reservation is to do with the collateral effects. Mr Chope: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Again, I will be brief on those, because they have been complimenting me earlier on what I had had to say. dealt with. According to the committee minutes, there May I ask whether he thinks that TfL should sell off will be some tax benefits in avoiding stamp duty, at least many of these surplus assets, rather than risking the for TfL—it is a moot point whether we think that is a setting up of vehicles for their development? good thing to do or not—but when the benefits of avoiding tax go to the partner, that is a concern. As is Mr Slaughter: I am coming to that point. I have given the case with the Earls Court partner, major multinational the House the benefit of what could be described as my property companies are avoiding paying UK tax by knowledge of how things have progressed so far and being registered in Jersey. TfL is facilitating that. That is what concessions have been made, but it is clear that plain wrong. A lack of transparency comes from the clause 5 is intended to enable such vehicles to be set up, limited partnership model, rather than the limited liability along with deals with pension funds and development partnership model. That is also plain wrong. partners for the management of secondary incomes to I also think, to put it crudely, that TfL is getting into create income streams. bed with some dodgy characters. If they are not dodgy Obviously—this brings me back to the point that I characters, then the people those people are getting into think my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North bed with are certainly dodgy. Capco, developers of and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) was making—if Earls Court, has a partnership with the Kwok brothers, 865 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 866 who are on trial for fraud in Hong Kong. When I put it already had housing that people wanted to live in and to TfL last Friday that it should not be in that company, jobs people that wanted to do, and they were sold on it said, “We have no association with the Kwoks”, but the belief that it was a good commercial deal for the they signed a section 106 agreement for the site they owner of that site. In my view it is simply unacceptable were developing. for that to happen. It is unacceptable that there should Let me give this example because it makes the point. be that loss of homes—affordable, good-quality homes The Earls Court area is subject to a masterplan. That that people have occupied for 40 or 50 years—and their was devised by Capco and everyone fell into line: the being demolished simply to hand over a site. Mayor of London fell into line, as did TfL and the two Yes, TfL got a terrible deal, but Hammersmith and Conservative-controlled boroughs. Therefore, we had Fulham council got an extraordinarily negligent deal the obscenity of a planning framework being designed that has to be investigated. It sold 23 acres of prime around a planning application and of allowing a developer residential land for a net sum of £50 million, except to act as predator on almost 80 acres of prime land in within that £50 million it has to pay for the relocation central London without any competition. The developer and the purchase of the properties on that land, and dictated its terms over a period of years, feeling that it with every month that property prices rise, that net sum had such pliant partners that it could do whatever it had is decreasing. Hammersmith and Fulham council—under to do. its new Labour ownership, but gifted by its previous As the hon. Member for Christchurch, who is long in Conservative administration—could end up actually the tooth and rather shrewder than a lot of politicians, owing money for having given away 23 acres of prime said, that may work for a year or two or even five, but it land and having to displace 2,000 people who did not will not work for longer than that and sooner or later want to be displaced. That is what is happening in west there will be a change of regime in Hammersmith and London at the moment but it is on the basis of that Fulham and the apple cart will be upset. Possibly, in a strategy and plan that TfL wants to go forward with year and a half, there will be a change of control at city this kind of proposal. Can you wonder, Madam Deputy hall and these schemes will still be in their infancy. Yet Speaker, that I am not terribly happy by it pursuing this TfL has signed up to that masterplan, which I can course of action? evidence is not just a terrible scheme for the whole of west London but a terrible financial deal for the public Mr Chope: What the hon. Gentleman has said is sector partners. fascinating. Does he accept that what he has just described All that land is being lost. Those premier exhibition is available to us because of the transparency of the centres in London contribute 16% of exhibition space existing arrangements? However, if this Bill goes through, in the UK and 30% of exhibition space in London. We it may not be so easy in the future to be able to describe will lose over 750 good-quality affordable homes, which exactly what happens because there will not be that will be demolished to make way for unaffordable homes. transparency. We will also lose the main engineering and maintenance depot for TfL and even TfL admits it does not know Mr Slaughter: I have to say that I agree with the hon. how it will cope without it. The first I heard about the Gentleman, although it has not been that transparent: move to Acton was when the hon. Member for Harrow it has taken rather a lot of work, over the last six of East mentioned it today. It may have been a surprise to seven years and I am probably prematurely grey as a the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton. It was consequence of that. It has been like getting blood out certainly a surprise to me. of a stone, and so much work has been done, not At the Friday meeting and previously, I was told by primarily by me, but by the residents, the RMT, and TfL that there were no plans, that the operational people like my colleague my hon. Friend the Member decisions had not been taken and probably would not for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and the be taken until 2020. However, it is a question not only petitioners. They have worked day and night on this and of manufacture and maintenance but of the stabling of have harried these people who are so irresponsible with the trains. At the moment, TfL says that they have the public assets that they hold—all public land at Earls nowhere else to go. Therefore, we have a peculiar situation Court, all being squandered and given away to developers, in which TfL has signed and voluntarily bound itself up for losses of hundreds of millions, if not billions, of to that masterplan, a terrible financial plan, a terrible pounds. social deal for my constituents and a terrible deal for the economic life of west London even though it is not John McDonnell: The greyness becomes my hon. in a position to deliver on it and does not look as if it Friend, by the way, but on the point he is making, the ever will be. I cannot believe that by 2020 there will not issue is that a limited liability company will lodge its have been some change in political control that would accounts at Companies House, whereas a limited rule that out entirely. That is what I mean by the partnership has no responsibility to do that, so even naivety, for want of a better word, in the way it has then there will be complete opaqueness about the financial operated these schemes. transactions of that limited partnership. We have some of the players from the earlier debate here. The Minister and the shadow Minister and myself Mr Slaughter: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for are present, and I wish we still had my right hon. Friend that intervention. the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), I was going to talk more about the formal instrument, because we had a very similar debate about the plans for but we have heard quite a lot about that already and I HS2. As was largely not the case with Old Oak Common hope we will have more time to look at it in Committee. but is largely the case with King’s Cross, they involved I also hope that if this Bill does go ahead we will at least going into an area that was already populated and remove this pernicious clause 5. 867 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 868

[Mr Slaughter] If TfL focused a little more on that, rather than on spending four years getting this needless Bill through, Before concluding, however, I must make two final we would have a better transport system in London. points. The first is that I must pay tribute to the petitioners. Richard Osband has been quoted at length and he is an 7.7 pm absolute star. He is a constituent of mine and he was a Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) property developer. He bought a house on the west (Lab): I have listened with great interest to my hon. Kensington estate, a large council estate in my constituency, Friends the Members for Hayes and Harlington (John because he liked the area and he wanted to live there, McDonnell) and for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), and he is utterly affronted by the fact that he is being and in particular to all the ups and downs of the forced out of his home—that, with the connivance of developments in Earls Court and Shepherd’s Bush. public authorities, his home is being compulsorily purchased and he is being chucked out of it in order to do this This debate is taking place under the long shadow of terrible deal. I must also mention Joss Bell and Anabela public-private partnerships and private finance initiatives— Hardwick. Anabela is also a constituent of mine and two wholly misconceived financial fixes designed to Joss is an environmental campaigner, and they are also achieve public sector good. I will take this opportunity petitioners, and the next stage with this will involve to say that PFI is of narrow merit and normally suited their formidable talents being ranged against TfL. to capital projects that have a natural revenue stream, such as toll bridges. I certainly did not support the vast I shall end my speech in a moment, as my hon. Friend extension of PFI that happened under my own the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington Government; nor did I support the misconceived PPP is waiting patiently to speak, but I want to make one for public transport. more point about the sale of land. Until recently, TfL I can understand the scepticism being expressed by owned Shepherd’s Bush market. Indeed, I think it still Members on both sides as a result of local authorities owns part of the freehold. The market is not only an trying to be clever with financial instruments. However, iconic London market but a massively important asset I was taken aback by the headlong attack on the to my constituents. It sells relatively low-priced and management of TfL by my good Friend the Member incredibly varied produce, with a wider range of ethnic for Hayes and Harlington. He accused them of wanting produce than almost any other market in London. It is to go on a property development binge and of sacrificing highly successful. The only thing that makes it less the long-term strategic interests of transport in London successful is the fact that its landlord, TfL, has failed to to property development. That is a tiny bit unfair. maintain it. Every stall is let, and it is very popular, but what has TfL done? Rather than take the revenue John McDonnell: Let me make this clear. TfL is stream, it has sold it to facilitate the demise and destruction working under the political direction of the current of the market and the building of 200 luxury flats on Mayor of London. This is about Boris Johnson selling the site. I am pleased to say, however, that with the help off sites to speculator friends to try to bail himself out of local residents and shopkeepers, the new Hammersmith following the cuts that have been made by this Government. and Fulham council is endeavouring to prevent that This is not an attack on the individual officers of from happening. TfL—far from it. There is political direction behind this. How contradictory is that? Is this new policy of setting up these wonderful joint ventures instead of Ms Abbott: I will come on to deal with political selling off sites, as we have seen in Earls Court, going to direction later. The point I make is that on the long-term spread across London? It is a policy that TfL appears to strategic development of transport in London the key have no control over but every liability for. The partnership elements in the current TfL management have an exemplary in Earls Court is with a £2 company with no covenant record, be it under a Mayor for whom I did not vote or strength based in Jersey. If things go wrong and the under a Mayor for whom I did vote twice. It is a little project goes belly up, that company could be dissolved unfair to accuse them of not having any long-term and the parent company, Capco, which has all the strategic vision. A lot of what has been spoken about by assets, could simply walk away. Who would be left to my hon. Friends the Members for Hayes and Harlington pick up the tab? It would be TfL. In the meantime, and for Hammersmith, and the hon. Member for however, it has sold off substantial assets—namely, the Christchurch (Mr Chope) is the consequence not of freehold of its property in Earls Court—for a 37% malign forces within TfL’s management, but an overheated stake. In my view, the way in which TfL negotiated that property market in London, predatory developments and deal is almost criminal, yet we are being asked to give it a climate of tax avoidance generally among multinationals. more powers to do more of the same. That is absolutely The House must address such things. We need changes not on. In Shepherd’s Bush, TfL had an income stream in planning law; enhancement of local authority powers; from a successful market that needed just a little investment, and fiscal measures to deal with issues relating to the but for political reasons, it sold the development to overheated property market in London and some of the facilitate another developer making a mint out of it. consequences. I put it to the hon. Member for Christchurch that TfL Mr Slaughter: Will my hon. Friend give way? gets it wrong every time, whether it is selling property or entering into a deal. It needs rather more financial Ms Abbott: I will not, because I am mindful of the rigour and better financial officers. It also needs to be time and I believe there is a wish to close this debate at less ambitious about being a property developer and, as 7.15 pm. my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and has said, more ambitious when it comes to managing Harlington said, much of what is happening is due to our money and providing reliable bus and tube services. financial pressures from the Government—they would 869 Transport for London Bill [Lords]9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport for London Bill [Lords] 870 say that they are obliged to do this. It is important this debate is that, in addition to the undoubtedly not to confuse TfL, which was named throughout this passionate attacks on TfL, we must give TfL credit for debate, with the Mayor of London. It is not my role to its stewardship of London’s transport system over the stand up to defend him, but I would want to defend the years. I hope that in Committee the Bill can be improved, long-term, responsible, strategic approach taken by the so that whatever vehicles emerge from it ensure fairness management of TfL. on both sides of the agreement. Given the constraints There is no question that there is a danger that TfL under which TfL operates and given an overheated may be dazzled by the glories of the property world. I property market, which is not its responsibility, Members was looking on TfL’s website at what it says about itself would be unreasonable in not seeing the need for TfL, and property development. It states: and in not allowing TfL, to go forward with measures “Transport for London is a brand that is recognised around that it hopes will provide it with ongoing revenue. As for the world and owns great properties in prime locations. Our this being a quick fix, it surprises me that Members can unique selling point is the: say that a Bill that has taken five years to get this far is a Location of our assets quick fix. I understand what my colleagues are saying, and I am particularly concerned about what I have Impressive property space” heard about Earls Court, but let us give the management and so on. Clearly, it sounds like people who are perhaps of TfL just a little credit going forward. overly dazzled by the notion of being property developers, but I remind the House that it is not a question of TfL 7.14 pm buying and selling property just to make a profit; TfL, in the course of its activity, has acquired assets that could Bob Blackman: We have had a full and reasoned be developed, be it airspace above tube stations, bus debate on the principles of the Bill. The hon. Members stations, disused depots, archways, surplus London for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for underground land or large-scale transport projects. It is Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) and my hon. Friend the not as if TfL has been wilfully engaged in property Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) have raised development; it has these assets, which in some cases reasonable concerns that need to be considered in detail have transpired because of changes in the nature of public in Committee. On behalf of the promoters of the Bill, transport and in technical aspects relating to transport, let me say that the key is allowing Transport for London and clearly it wants to do the best with them. I do not the opportunity to borrow money at lower interest rates think TfL has any aspirations to be a property developer. and to reduce the risk for Londoners as a whole, and that is something of which we should all approve. John McDonnell: Come to Earls Court. The issue of ensuring that Secretary of State approval is given for any such venture is a concession to be taken Ms Abbott: I do not think TfL has any aspirations to in Committee. The hon. Member for Nottingham South be a property developer; I think TfL would argue that it (Lilian Greenwood) raised a series of legitimate issues does not simply want to sell off assets in a one-off that need to be considered. I thank the Minister for his manner, as some Members have suggested. It wants to support and contribution. The hon. Member for Hackney construct a way to have long-term revenue streams to North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) set out what pay for things, such as bus service enhancement. TfL was almost a mini-manifesto for a bid possibly for can get capital, but revenue is harder to come by. another position in the future. I listened with great care to what was said about Earls I hope that the Bill is given a Second Reading. I trust Court and it seems to me that the Earls Court deal may that it will proceed now to Committee and then to law have been misconceived; it may be one of those unfortunate in due course. instances where the public sector was out-negotiated by Question put and agreed to. private developers. The only point I wanted to make in Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed. 871 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Buckinghamshire County Council 872 (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] Buckinghamshire County Council (Filming stage, and it truly is magnificent—as well as of the on Highways) Bill [Lords] Richard Attenborough stage, which is dedicated to the late Sir Richard’s large body of work in film and television. Second Reading May I say, having worked for two years with Sir Richard Attenborough and David Puttnam on British film year 7.16 pm back in the ’80s, that he was a treasure to work for and will be much missed? It is fitting that we have a stage at Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): Pinewood named after him. In June 2014, there were I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. reports that a £200 million expansion plan for Pinewood I thank Members involved in the previous Bill for studios, which will make it rival the Hollywood sets, had allowing me to come in as the bridesmaid after the main been approved. That will be a great jewel in the crown of event. I was worried that we would not get our chance, Buckinghamshire. so I am grateful to all the Members concerned for the Adjacent to Pinewood studios is Black park, a popular constraint that they showed when debating a very important film location offering large areas of heath and woodland. Bill for London. The 500 acre site is used extensively for filming. Recent The Bill was first introduced in another place, and productions include “Casino Royale”, “Snow White has gone through all its stages there. It is a private Bill and the Huntsman”, “Jack Ryan”and Kenneth Branagh’s promoted by my own county council in Buckinghamshire. forthcoming film, “Cinderella”, which will be released During the course of consultation, no petitions were in 2015. Over the past year or so, West Wycombe park, deposited against the Bill by interested parties in either the Ashridge estate, Waddesdon manor, Basildon manor House, so we are talking about a modest and and the Hughenden estate have hosted productions uncontroversial measure. such as “ALittle Chaos”, “Maleficent”, “The Monuments I pay tribute to Mr Emyr Thomas of Sharpe Pritchard, Men” and “The World’s End”. They were all filmed in our parliamentary agent, who has provided commendable Buckinghamshire. professional advice on the passage of this Bill. The Bill’s Those who have heard me opine about HS2 will overall objective is to assist the council in continuing to know that it is no word of a lie that the county contains encourage the film industry to produce films in a rich diversity of landscape that is frequently used by Buckinghamshire by formalising the legal position as film-makers for location filming. There are quiet country regards the closure of highways for the purposes of lanes, picturesque towns and villages and urban settings. filming and to enable objects to be placed on the The proximity of those locations to the studios and the highways and used for those purposes. The Bill is fact that the county is on London’s doorstep help to precedented in private Acts promoted first by the London ensure that Buckinghamshire remains a popular filming boroughs and Transport for London in 2008, by Kent location and a place to which new films will be attracted. county council in 2010 and, most recently, by Hertfordshire The Beaconsfield film studios, which opened back in county council in 2014. The film industry that is referred 1922, were the site of the first British talking movie but to includes not just movie makers but the producers of are now the home of the national film and television television programmes and advertisements. It also includes school, headed by Nik Powell, whose credits include film-making by charitable organisations and film students. “The Company of Wolves”, “Mona Lisa”, “Scandal” Most Members know how important the film industry and “The Crying Game”—for those who are interested, is to the UK. The industry directly employs about they were all Oscar nominated. He runs the school, 43,900 workers and contributes about £1.6 billion to which employs about 30 industry professionals, including our GDP and £490 million to the Exchequer. Stephen Frears. Its 220 or so students produce about Buckinghamshire has a long tradition of film-making, 100 films a year in and around Buckinghamshire and and the county council supports the film industry, the school has some notable alumni, including the which it considers to be an important part of the director of “Harry Potter”, David Yates, and, of course, Buckinghamshire economy. Nick Park, who was the creator and director of our very Buckinghamshire is located in the so-called super-region own “Wallace and Gromit”, a set of characters that is of the south-east of England, which accounts for familiar to those on the Opposition Benches, at least, approximately 60% of the UK’s film and television and on which we all look with much affection. production. It is home to 22 production companies that Filming is very good for our local economy. For serve different sectors of the industry, including feature instance, a considerable proportion of the film budget is films, animation, TV, digital production and corporate spent on local facilities such as hotels, restaurants, films. One of these, of course, is Pinewood studios, retailers, transport companies, florists, construction which is renowned as a leading provider of studio and materials, location fees and directly employed local related services to the film and television industry. people. It is estimated that for every £1 spent on production, Pinewood studios opened back in 1936 and over the £2.50 goes into the local economy. It is therefore really past 78 years it has played host to several huge blockbuster important that Buckinghamshire retains its position as films and numerous iconic television series. Most people an attractive place for the film industry that offers watching the debate will know that the “Carry On”, genuine advantages. As part of the council’s commitment “Superman”, “Star Wars”and “Harry Potter” series were to increasing economic investment in the county and all produced at Pinewood, as were “Alien”, “Batman”, ensuring that Buckinghamshire benefits from the film “Love Actually”, “Mamma Mia!”and, of course, 20 James industry’s presence, the council is keen to encourage Bond films, and I have had the pleasure in the past of more location shoots and investment in our studios. being on a film set in Pinewood for one of those James In November 2013, the Bill was deposited in the Bond films. Pinewood is the home of the largest sound Lords, and it has cleared all its stages in the other place. stage in Europe—it is called the Albert R Broccoli 007 Why is it needed? The existing position in law is that it is 873 Buckinghamshire County Council 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Buckinghamshire County Council 874 (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] an offence wilfully to obstruct free passage along the see our towns, villages and streets on screen not only in highway. Coupled with that, a highways authority has a some of our wonderful television productions, but as statutory duty to assert and protect the rights of the locations in big feature films. The Bill also offers protections. public to the use and enjoyment of any highway for which it is the authority. What constitutes an obstruction Sir Greg Knight: My concerns are about not the local is a matter of fact and degree in each case, but it is safe person, who might well be aware that a film crew is in to say that if a film-maker prohibited people from the area, but the motorist who is travelling through the proceeding along a road either on foot or in a vehicle area but might not have received adequate notice that a for anything longer than the briefest period, that would road will be closed. What attempts will the council be likely to amount to an obstruction. If the stopping make to ensure that motorists travelling through the up of or interference with a highway is authorised by area are given adequate notice that they should use an statute, that provides a defence to any prosecution for alternative road? obstruction. Utility companies have such powers, as do the police and local authorities, but the provisions are Mrs Gillan: May I commend my right hon. Friend, always drafted so that the powers allow interference who takes a great interest in motoring matters and who with the highway for specific purposes. It is important I know has a fine collection of cars himself. The council to note that the council’s proposals are fully supported has a code of practice, readily available on its website, by our local police. entitled, “Filming on Highways: Buckinghamshire County Why is it important to allow the closure of our Council Code of Practice”. The council has already highways? It is not the case that there is just a perception drawn up draft proposals in the eventuality that the Bill that film-makers might go elsewhere to shoot without is passed by the House. When consulting the Department proper powers to allow the council to close roads, because for Transport, it has entered into provisions and given I can give hon. Members an example of that happening. undertakings about placing well sited notices and giving Vodafone recently wanted to film an advertisement in as much warning as possible. Like my right hon. Friend, Buckinghamshire involving the closure of a road. The I know how annoying it is to find one cannot go council explained that it did not have the power to close somewhere, and one can see all the film vans. I therefore the road as the company wanted, so I am afraid that hope that the notices will have been adequately covered Vodafone went elsewhere. The council is worried that in the rules and guidelines that will be readily available Buckinghamshire could lose its locational and competitive to the public, and the council gave the Department for advantages, and economic benefits through the supply Transport assurances about notification to fire, ambulance chain, unless it is covered by legislation similar to that and police services, and so on. We hope that the disruption enjoyed in London, Kent and Hertfordshire. will be minimised and a great deal of thought will be given to road users, as my right hon. Friend wants. Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): As most films, and indeed adverts, are months or years in the Mr Chope: The film order can last for five days—or is planning, why would clause 3 give the council the power it seven days?—and there can be six film orders each immediately to make a prohibition of traffic order? year, adding up to 42 days a year. If someone can find ingress and egress from their home interrupted for 42 Mrs Gillan: My right hon. Friend made interventions days a year, is that proportionate? during the House’s consideration of the Hertfordshire County Council (Filming on Highways) Act 2014. It is Mrs Gillan: Before I reply to that intervention, may I not rocket science; it is simply weather, weather, weather. thank my hon. Friend for the helpful advice he gave The inclemency of the British weather means that there when he was approached by Buckinghamshire county is sometimes a need for film crews immediately to take council to discuss the Bill? His expertise in opposed the opportunity to film on our roads. The immediacy private business has always been invaluable, as was his for which the Bill provides offers great assistance. contribution to the Bill prior to that. I think that closure for 42 days must not be taken in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport isolation. Do not forget that the council has to consider (Mr Robert Goodwill): I have heard the measure referred section 122 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, to as a “sunshine clause”, which explains exactly why it which also applies. That section puts a duty on the is in the Bill. council Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the Minister for that “to secure the expeditious, convenient and safe movement of helpful little ray of sunshine in our debate. vehicular and other traffic”, including providing adequate pedestrian access to people’s Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I homes and taking into account the needs of the disabled. congratulate my right hon. Friend on the way in which In practice, because the council must give consideration she is setting out the case for the Bill. As someone who to the provisions of section 122, closure of such duration has lived in a home where filming takes place on the would be unlikely and would probably not be demanded. road once or twice a year, I have never yet heard a The provisions of the Bill have the effect of extending, neighbour complain if they have been given reasonable with modifications, the existing powers of the highway notice, which is to be expected, and if the time of authority to close roads for special events. Those powers filming is limited to hours or even days. were brought in specifically to enable a wonderfully successful event—the Tour de France—to be hosted in Mrs Gillan: I am grateful for that helpful intervention England for the first time in the 1990s. I am sure we all and I think that the people of Buckinghamshire feel saw the great success of the recent Tour de France in exactly the same. Indeed, people are always delighted to this country. The relevant provision of the 1984 Act 875 Buckinghamshire County Council 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Buckinghamshire County Council 876 (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] [Mrs Gillan] In order to understand whether there was support for the proposed Bill, throughout the summer of 2012 the also allows closures to facilitate the holding of “a county council held a six-week consultation, and a huge relevant event”, which is defined as number of bodies were consulted. A total of 19 responses “any sporting event, social event or entertainment which is held were received. Nine responses were absolutely positive, on a road.” seven were positive but expressed some concerns which The council takes the view that, sadly, that does not have been addressed, one was neutral, and two were include film-making. The Bill would have the effect of negative. It was considered that none of the concerns categorising the making of a film as a relevant event, raised was significant enough to prevent the promotion thereby allowing the council to make the subsequent of the Bill. Given that no one has objected to the closure orders. legislation, it is good to see that it is welcomed by the people of Buckinghamshire as much as it has been in The Bill goes a little further than that, in the same Hertfordshire, Kent and London. way as the Acts for London, Kent and Hertfordshire, by allowing what will be known as “film notices” to be I hope that I have done justice to Buckinghamshire issued where it appears to the council where it is expedient county council in sponsoring this Bill. It is a simple Bill that the closure should come into effect without delay. that has precedent. I hope that the House will find As I mentioned, that is particularly useful in the film favour with it and give it fair passage. industry because of the unpredictability of our weather. The existing restriction, which allows special events 7.38 pm orders to continue in force for up to three days, is Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I altered to allow for seven days for a film order. Similarly, thank the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham a restriction on the number of orders that can be made (Mrs Gillan) for the way in which she introduced the in any year on any stretch of road is relaxed to allow for Bill. She opened her remarks by saying that she was up to six film orders. Under the existing rules, only one worried she was going to be the bridesmaid to the main special event order can be made per annum, but that event tonight. I do not think I would ever accuse her of number can be increased with the consent of the Secretary that. Certainly, as regards the encyclopaedic knowledge of State. of the British film industry that she demonstrated, she How will our residents who are affected by this squashed any suggestions of that absolutely. I was a legislation be treated? As I have indicated, whenever the little worried, I have to say, when she told the House council exercises the powers under the Bill, section 122 that she had spent an interesting time on the set of a of the 1984 Act protects the users of the highway. That, James Bond film. I hope that that was instructive, but I I am sure, is the safeguard we would be looking for, am a little worried about what it involved. If it involved because it requires the council to have regard to the car chases, Beretta pistols or self-defence courses, I, for desirability of securing and maintaining reasonable access one, will be watching my step a little more carefully to premises. when I say anything at all about HS2 in future. As I said, the council has made a commitment to the I am very pleased that, in commenting on the strength Department for Transport that it will follow the procedures and importance of the UK film industry, the right hon. that it has to follow for temporary street closures under Lady took the opportunity to say a few words about other legislation. I referred to the code of practice for Richard Attenborough, whose passing is mourned by location filming in Buckinghamshire, and I want to give us all. He was a giant of the UK film industry. Obviously, the House a bit more detail on that. It includes, for we on the Labour Benches had a special affection for example, provisions about litter removal, historical or him, given his politics, but nobody can take away the cultural and protected locations, night filming, noise contribution he made over so many years and we will all and nuisance, and parking. It also contains a section miss him. about residents, including disabled residents, and businesses As the right hon. Lady has said, the Bill is pretty requiring consultation. The code has recently been updated, much identical in logic and purpose to the Hertfordshire as requested by the Chairman of Committees when the County Council (Filming on Highways) Act 2014, which Bill was considered in Committee in the Lords. As I we debated last November. We understand why it is understand it, we would be perfectly prepared to place a important for Buckinghamshire to have clarity on rules copy of the draft rules and regulations, and the code, in and regulations, in order for it to be able to sustain and, the House of Commons Library if that was wanted. indeed, to continue to attract the film industry, which, as the right hon. Lady has made clear, is a significant Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Does contributor to local jobs and the local economy. It is this require consultation with residents associations? Is also a significant contributor to jobs across the country, there any provision to ensure that residents associations given the national significance of the UK film industry. can be compensated for the inconvenience that their The Bill enables the council to prohibit or restrict members encounter? There is a lot of filming in the area traffic on roads for the purposes of making a film. where I live, and there is provision for residents associations Those powers are already available to local authorities to receive money from the film company. in London, Kent and Hertfordshire. Like the Hertfordshire Act, this Bill will enable the council to close roads, Mrs Gillan: I will place the code and the terms and including, where necessary because of the weather, with conditions in the Library so that my hon. Friend can only 24 hours’ notice. It aims to deal with unpredictability, read them, because I am getting to the end of my speech which is something that obviously has to be dealt with if and I want to allow enough time not only for any we are going to sustain the film industry.After Hertfordshire colleague who wishes to speak but for the Minister to gained those powers, Buckinghamshire wanted to retain respond. its competitive position as a filming location. 877 Buckinghamshire County Council 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Buckinghamshire County Council 878 (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] I understand the concerns that have been expressed Mr Chope rose— today—the same concerns were expressed about the Hertfordshire Act—about the possible impact of sudden Hon. Members: Too late. road closures on local people and, indeed, on motorists passing through the area. That is why a code of practice is important. I am pleased that one has been agreed and 7.45 pm think it would be an excellent idea for a copy to be placed in the Library of the House of Commons. I Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): It is a detect no desire from anybody—certainly not from the pity that I was too late to intervene on the Minister, but film companies themselves, the right hon. Lady or the perhaps he will intervene on me. Opposition—to restrict anybody’s rights unnecessarily. The leader of Buckinghamshire county council, who For the film industry to survive and prosper, it needs the knew that I had concerns about the Hertfordshire County support and confidence of local people. It would not Council (Filming on Highways) Bill, wrote to ask me make sense for any company to ride roughshod over what I was going to do about the Buckinghamshire Bill. any concerns. I said that I thought it would be much better if That is why it is important that we discuss the Bill in a Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire got together to measured way. It is also why the code of practice is so promote a joint Bill, because that would be much less important, and if anything in it needs a bit of tweaking, expensive, but Hertfordshire did not want to play ball. that can be looked at—that is one of the great things As my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and about a code of practice. If we are able to do that, Amersham (Mrs Gillan) said on introducing the legislation building on the experience in Hertfordshire and elsewhere, and as the Minister has just mentioned, there is now a this Bill will be a positive contribution enabling the UK competitiveness issue. film industry in Buckinghamshire and elsewhere to go from strength to strength. Mrs Gillan: Perhaps I may tell the Minister that the idea of bringing forward a Bill for the whole country is 7.43 pm perfectly sensible, because the issue is important. I appreciate The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport that such locations are not just in Buckinghamshire, (Mr Robert Goodwill): I congratulate my right hon. although Buckinghamshire is best. The Road Traffic Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham Regulation (Temporary Closure for Filming) Bill, which (Mrs Gillan) on moving the Second Reading of this has been introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for private Bill, welcome the opportunity for this debate Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), would cover the and endorse the comments that have just been made by whole country, although as a private Member’s Bill it the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard may not get through and as yet no Bill has been published. Burden). I am very pleased to put the Government’s As there is only one day a year on which a Bill of this position on the record, particularly as I have appeared nature can be published, Hertfordshire went ahead and in an Oscar-winning motion picture. published its Bill, so Buckinghamshire had no choice but to publish its own Bill on the due date the following Richard Burden: Tell us more, please! year. That was a long intervention, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Mr Goodwill: If the hon. Gentleman watches a film Mr Chope: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for called “The Iron Lady”, which is about one of the her short intervention, but in a sense I am even more greatest ladies ever to have lived on this planet, he will disappointed. Why did the Minister not refer to such a see me playing the part of a Government Whip. That is private Member’s Bill? It might well deal with the issue about as far as my acting goes, but I am in the credits, by giving all local authorities a power to introduce such which counts, as I understand it. provisions without the need to use the private legislation I want to make it clear from the start that the Government route. do not oppose the Bill, which largely replicates previous Bills such as the London Local Authorities and Transport Sir Greg Knight: Does my hon. Friend not agree that for London Act 2008 and the Kent County Council if we had a Bill covering the whole country that perhaps (Filming on Highways) Act 2010, and closely mirrors gave councils the power to preserve outdoor film sets by the Hertfordshire County Council (Filming on Highways) banning unsightly wind farms, the House might pass it Act 2014. with acclamation? During the passage of the Hertfordshire Bill, we had some initial reservations about the limited procedural Mr Chope: I look forward to supporting my right protection that it offered to property owners and the hon. Friend’s Bill on that topic. I think that there may travelling public. However, following discussions with be a chance to present such a Bill even on Friday if he Hertfordshire county council, it reassured us that it will gives notice of it tomorrow. follow procedures similar to those set out in the Road To return to the point about the private Member’s Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations Bill, the Minister did not say whether the Government 1992 when it puts film orders in place. We are grateful to will support it, which is rather a missed opportunity, if I Buckinghamshire county council for agreeing that, to may put it like that. Whether in relation to pedlars—we the extent that that there are no mandatory requirements know all about such iterative Bills—or filming on highways, in law, it will also follow the procedures in those regulations. it is much better to try to have general legislation to My only surprise is that we have not yet had a North which local authorities can opt in if they wish, without Yorkshire county council (Filming on Public Highways) the need to engage in the expensive and often protracted Bill, but I suspect that it is only a matter of time. process of private legislation. 879 Buckinghamshire County Council 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 880 (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] [Mr Chope] Mr Deputy Speaker, I can see that you feel that there comes a time when all the points that need to be made Having said that, because there are no petitions against have been made. I made many of the points that I would the Bill, it will go to an unopposed Bill Committee and like to have made on this Bill when I spoke to the will not even come back on Report unless the Committee Hertfordshire County Council (Filming on Highways) finds some reason to amend it, and it will then go Bill. In conclusion, I hope that this is the last time we straight through on Third Reading. have to deal with the Second Reading of an individual However, that is an expensive process. I hope that by local authority Bill for filming on the highways and that the time the Bill returns for Third Reading we will have in future they can all be dealt with under delegated more news about the private Member’s Bill to which my legislation. right hon. Friend referred. [Interruption.] I see the Minister nodding in agreement. Private Members’ Bills 7.53 pm are often rather extensive in ambit, and therefore Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the Opposition spokesman controversial and difficult to get through, but it sounds for his support for the Bill, to my hon. Friend the as though that Bill will have a narrow ambit. If it is Minister, who has indicated the Government’s support, supported by the Government and the Opposition, it and to the two hon. Friends who have intervened to could have a fair wind and result in our spending less make their points gently but who have also been supportive time looking at private legislation. of the Bill. It would be otiose for me to say anything Sir Greg Knight: If this Bill goes ahead, is there not a more. Mr Deputy Speaker, that’s a wrap. case for giving the council more powers? Clause 6(2) Question put and agreed to. allows it to impose a charge for placing objects on the Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed. highway, but only to cover its reasonable expenses. Taking into account my hon. Friend’s earlier point Business without Debate about local community groups, perhaps the council should be given the power to levy a fee that includes a donation to the local community. DELEGATED LEGISLATION

Mr Chope: I am against that, because I do not see Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the why we should burden the blossoming British film leave of the House, we shall take motions 7 to 10 industry with additional stealth taxes. However, I support together. film companies working closely with residents and residents Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing associations and, where appropriate—I think that this Order No. 118(6)), is best practice in the industry—making ex gratia payments to compensate them for the inconvenience. REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE That happened recently in a street that I am familiar That the draft Political Parties, Elections and Referendums with where a company is shooting a film about the (Civil Sanctions) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014, which was Krays—“Legend” is the working title—which I think laid before this House on 5 June, be approved. will be very popular. The buildings in the ganglands where the Krays operated have long since been demolished, LEGAL SERVICES so the company had to find some lookalikes. They came That the draft Legal Services Act 2007 (Approved Regulator) along to the street in question and painted all the (No. 2) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 23 June, houses grey in order to make them look as dingy as they be approved. must have done in the 1950s. This is not an advertisement for “Legend”, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I wanted to LICENCES AND LICENSING explain that the film company, in order to ensure that That the draft Licensing Act 2003 (Mandatory Licensing local residents did not feel that they had been taken Conditions) (Amendment) Order 2014, which was laid before this advantage of, made a donation to the local residents House on 23 June, be approved. association as well as to individual residents who were particularly inconvenienced. If you would like to speak ROAD TRAFFIC with me afterwards, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will give you That the draft Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) the details of the residents association and the fantastic (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014, which Christmas parties it can throw as a result of the donations was laid before this House on 19 June, be approved.—(Alun it has received, and not only from that film company, Cairns.) but from many others. Question agreed to. 881 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 North Wales Police and Anonymous 882 Blog Site North Wales Police and Anonymous Despite being MP for Aberconwy since 2010 and Blog Site knowing of this site since before then, I have attempted to ignore the blog as far as I could. On occasion the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House authors have been complimentary about me, but more do now adjourn.—(Alun Cairns.) often than not I have been attacked. Such attacks, on the whole, need to be expected and accepted by a 7.54 pm politician as part and parcel of the decision to become a public figure. Councillors are also, to an extent, in the Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I am pleased to have same position—indeed, even the family home of the secured this debate on the relationship between North Deputy Speaker has been subject to online comments. Wales police and a local anonymous blog site. I suspect However, the attacks made by this site against my that I am not the first or last MP to highlight issues of colleague, Assembly Member for Clwyd West, Darren internet trolling and online harassment, and I suppose Miller, and subsequent vitriolic attacks on my hon. there will be further debates of this nature in the House Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), in due course. In this debate I hope to the hear the which included despicable comments about his cancer Government’s views on what police forces should do treatment, were rather too much in my view for even a when complaints are brought to their attention. I will politician to accept, although accept it they did. To have also highlight concerns about the lack of consistency the skin of an elephant is apparently part of the job across police forces, where the stated manner of dealing description for any politician these days. with such issues in the Hertfordshire constabulary, for example, can be contrasted with the manner in which For me the turning point came this summer when the North Wales police have dealt with numerous complaints site published a number of libels against me that were about a rather vicious and nasty local blog. picked up by the press in Wales and by other websites. I do not want to detain the House for too long with My inbox was flooded with abuse and accusations of a details of the sordid site in question, but a quick overview very serious nature. Emotions were high because the of the content will give the House a feel for what we are original article referred to my position on the Israel-Hamas dealing with. The site is called “Thoughts of Oscar”, conflict and as such some of the e-mails received were and it is probably best described as a small-town poison of the “we know where you live” variety. All e-mails pen letter blog, with an added interest in politics—mostly referred to the article printed by this anonymous website. local politics, but it has a rather remarkable interest in With five children at home, I had no choice but to Welsh Conservatives, wherever they may be located in contact North Wales police to highlight my concerns Wales. and to seek advice on the precautions I should take. I Over the years the site has harassed, abused, libelled would like to pay tribute to Chief Inspector Moses from and generally targeted a series of individuals, businesses, North Wales police for his calm and assured support, council officials and local councillors. All that, as would which allowed me to reassure my family. In addition to be expected, has been done behind the cloak of anonymity, taking such precautions, I had to engage a solicitor to while claiming the moral high ground of being the highlight where the claims were inaccurate, but legal purveyor of free speech. The hon. Member for Liverpool, action was impossible. How can anyone sue an anonymous Walton (Steve Rotheram) said in a previous Adjournment website? It should also be noted that despite the legal debate: letter highlighting the libellous inaccuracies, neither Google, the site owners, nor Twitter, which hosts the “Trolling is not about normal social discourse, or even about disagreeing vehemently with someone who has a contrary opinion. Twitter account, were co-operative. The test should be quite simple: would someone be happy to put I was therefore left with no means of redress. However, their name to what they have said under a false identity?”—[Official what I had not counted upon was my constituents. As Report, 17 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 758.] the vitriol on the site increased, a number of individuals I will describe that as the Liverpool Walton Test on came independently to my office to highlight their trolling. concerns about their treatment at the hands of this There are circumstances under which free speech and website. It became apparent that constituents, councillors, protection of an individual from identification is both small business owners and residents, after being harassed right and proper. However, I would be hard pressed to and abused online, had taken their complaints to North argue that such protection is justified to protect the Wales police. All had been told that nothing could be identity of the authors of a website that runs a vicious done and that the police could take no action. I find campaign against a councillor who has breached planning that response surprising. rules on double glazing, or a food vendor who found Online trolling has become a key issue for the Director themselves under such vicious assault that even the of Public Prosecutions and the Crown Prosecution Service, reputation and integrity of their deceased family members and they and other law enforcement agencies have were called into question. Such harassment of individuals highlighted guidelines on how such issues should be in the public domain is an electronic replication of the dealt with. Perhaps the best of these is the guide to poison pen letter of old, and has nothing to do with the online abuse and harassment published by the Hertfordshire principle of free speech. Constabulary. It appears to be a guide that has not been Such articles were the staple of this rather sad and read by North Wales police, where an Inspector Verberg, bitter website, which in my view fits perfectly with what now a member of the professional standards team, is I have described as the Liverpool Walton test. If the reported to have told no fewer than four constituents authors want to be anonymous, what are they ashamed that nothing could be done about online trolling, harassment of? Is it the power to put others through a degree of or abuse, which is the daily staple of this blog. He was mental anguish and concern that gives them a kick? wrong. 883 North Wales Police and Anonymous 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 North Wales Police and Anonymous 884 Blog Site Blog Site [Guto Bebb] of North Wales police, asking why he had visited both premises. When the nature of the inquiry was explained, As numerous debates in the House have highlighted, he was told in a friendly but clear manner that the blog there is plenty of legislation on the statute book that in question was being monitored and he should leave it could be used to protect victims from such harassment—for to the police. example, the Telecommunications Act 1984, section I think that the whole House will be intrigued by the 4(a) of the Public Order Act 1986, the Computer Misuse contrast between the quick response of the North Wales Act 1990 and the Protection from Harassment Act police to a perfectly legal visit by a registered investigator 1997. These are all options for the victim and should be to two premises in my constituency and the complete understood as such by the police. In view of the failure lack of interest shown in supporting constituents who of North Wales police to investigate my constituents’ brought reasonable complaints about harassments and claims, does the Minister believe that the Home Office online abuse to the same police force. To be perfectly guidance is sufficiently clear? Does the fault lie with the honest, there are victims of actual crimes in my constituency North Wales police? who would be pleased to receive a police visit on the day Although the lack of action by North Wales police is they contacted the police force, let alone a call within 20 a significant failure, two further meetings at my constituency minutes by a superintendent. office resulted in much more serious questions being My final point is that evidence received yesterday by raised. Two constituents, both local businesses, came to another constituent would indicate that the North Wales see me with evidence collected on their behalf by a police are well aware of the names of the people behind private investigator. Both had been subject to a significant this blog. Mr Michael Creamer, a constituent and by his amount of online abuse and harassment from the blog own admission no angel, visited my office yesterday. He in question, and their complaints to the police had been was convicted and sentenced to four years for his part in met with the same response as previous complaints: a mortgage fraud. During his trial at Mold Crown “It’s nothing to do with us”. They therefore decided in court, material that appeared on this “Thoughts of 2012 to hire a private investigator who, utilising IT Oscar”website about him was serious enough to potentially skills that I do not understand let alone could explain, prejudice the trial. According to a written statement traced pictures and other content on the blog to a provided to me by Mr Creamer, the presiding judge, domestic dwelling in Deganwy and a solicitors practice Judge John Rogers requested assurances from North in Trinity square, Llandudno. Three names were identified Wales police that the material published would be removed as a result of his work. and that no other material would be published during The private investigation company, Lewis Legal, is a the trial. Within two hours, DC Kenyon of North Wales north Wales-based civil and criminal evidence-gathering police provided such assurances to the judge under service that numbers among its clients local authorities oath, and the trial continued. in North Wales and which has worked with and for This raises a significant question for North Wales some police forces. I met Mr Michael Naughton from police. If, during a Crown court case back in October the company to discuss the names mentioned in his 2010, North Wales police were able to speak to, and report and the nature of the evidence gathered. On a receive assurances from, the authors of this website scale of one to 10, with one being “no confidence” and within two hours that no further comments would be 10 being “absolute confidence”, I asked him how certain made, why have they been so unwilling to support my he was that a Mr Nigel Roberts, a local business man, constituents who have brought legitimate concerns about and Mr Dylan Moore, a solicitor at David Jones and online abuse, trolling and harassment to their door? Company, were involved. In both cases, he stated that When this question is coupled with the rather bizarre he would rate both names as a 10 and would be confident speed at which North Wales police responded to a call in his evidence in any court of law. Indeed, this morning, from two of those named as being involved with this I received an e-mail from Mr Nigel Roberts confirming site after a visit from an investigator, it is in my view his involvement with the blog site in question. The third clear that North Wales police have significant questions name mentioned was classed as being rated at eight on a to answer. scale of one to 10 and despite parliamentary privilege, I This debate has highlighted two important issues. do not intend to name this individual. First, what powers are available to the police to deal The names in question were not a huge surprise to me with the harassment and abuse that my constituents since a local journalist had previously provided me with have suffered at the hands of those hiding behind a veil the same names, but had not furnished me with any of secrecy that an online blog affords them? Are those supporting evidence. I did, however, highlight these powers sufficient? Are they simple enough for victims to issues with the Whips Office some two years ago since understand and, for that matter, are they clear enough Mr Dylan Moore is the business partner of my right for police officers even at inspector level to understand? hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). I Can the Minister offer me assurances that the failures I want to reassure you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I have have highlighted in north Wales are not a result of a informed my right hon. Friend that I would be mentioning lack of clarity from the Home Office, the Director of this connection in passing. Public Prosecutions and the Crown Prosecution Service? What disturbed me about the statement made by It is, I think, important to identify whether this is a Mr Naughton was that within 20 minutes of visiting the north Wales problem or a wider issue that needs to be premises of Mr Dylan Moore and Mr Nigel Roberts, looked at. identifying himself as a private investigator and explaining Secondly, and even more concerning, is the fact that I his interest in the blog site—he was told to leave on both have many constituents who are now adamant that the occasions and promptly did so, leaving a business card—he reason why the police in north Wales did nothing was received a phone call from a Superintendent Humphreys that this site was being afforded a degree of protection. 885 North Wales Police and Anonymous 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 North Wales Police and Anonymous 886 Blog Site Blog Site I would be distraught if that was the case. I am a themselves down or let their forces down, rather than supporter of the North Wales police service and I know the vast majority who, as I have said, do such a fantastic that officers across north Wales do an important job in job for us day in, day out. difficult circumstances and are available at all times. My hon. Friend asked me whether harassment, or However, there are in my view clear questions that “trolling”, was an offence. It is, and there are myriad demand a response from the police and crime commissioner pieces of legislation to deal with it, including those to for north Wales and the chief constable. The oft-stated which my hon. Friend referred on the basis of his research. claim that the North Wales police force had no evidence We have the Defamation Act 2013, the Communications as to the authors of the blog and could offer no support Act 2003, the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to the victims can be contrasted with their ability to and the Malicious Communications Act 1998, to name obtain, within two hours, assurances in regard to any future but a few. It is therefore probably inaccurate to say that postings that might prejudice a Crown court trial. nothing can be done should evidence be there—although It is my view that the question of collusion is left I stress that it is up to the police to conduct their hanging over this entire sordid affair. investigations and to decide whether a criminal act has taken place—and I can answer one of my hon. Friend’s most forthright questions by saying “Yes, the legislation 8.10 pm is there, on the statute book.” The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims Let me now turn to the guidance that is provided for (Mike Penning): It is a privilege and an honour for me the police, and the question of whether the way in to take this first opportunity to respond to a debate as which it is used in north Wales is different from the way the new policing Minister. I congratulate my hon. Friend in which it is used in other parts of the country. I do not the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing a know exactly how it is being interpreted in north Wales, debate that concerns an enormously important issue. but it is being interpreted around the country, and As he knows, there are aspects of that issue on which I prosecutions have taken place, and continue to take can comment openly, and others in regard to which I place, on the basis of the guidance that has been issued am subject to a degree of restriction. to police authorities. A lead chief constable is responsible for these matters through the Association of Chief The part of Wales that my hon. Friend represents is Police Officers. It is clear to me that, if prosecutions are so beautiful, and so brilliantly represented by him, that taking place in other parts of the country—I personally some of my constituents continue to leave my constituency have not seen anything like this in my constituency; I for the area around Conwy. Indeed, some of my friends have come close but not anything like what has been have retired there. My friends are still my friends, but I described today—I would expect, as a constituency MP, am envious of those who have gone to my hon. Friend’s the police to do a full investigation in my constituency, constituency, and envious of the fact that he represents and in any other part of our great nation. them and I do not. That must indeed be a very beautiful To answer directly again the question: is the guidance part of the world. I also know that my hon. Friend is in place? Yes it is. Do I as the Minister for Policing feel enormously popular there. The fact that his constituents that that guidance is robust and simple and has been stood up and spoke out against the accusations that explained? Yes I do, clearly, as other forces are ensuring were made about him shows what a fantastic constituency that it is being used in that way. Nothing is perfect and I Member of Parliament he is. If only more constituents am sure that we can find other examples around the recognised the hard work and dedication of MPs, perhaps country where people think a prosecution should have we would have a better reputation around the country. taken place and it has not. We are not in a perfect Let me add, Mr Deputy Speaker, that no matter what world. It is not for politicians, rightly, to tell the police the job is—whether you are a Member of Parliament, a what they should and should not do. The Crown member of the Government, a doctor, a nurse or a Prosecution Service and the Director of Public Prosecutions policeman—no one has the right to level pernicious are involved in the ongoing discussions that we have on accusations against you. No one has the right to threaten this area. Online jurisdiction and what can and cannot your family, no one has the right to “troll” you, and no be used is a very difficult issue. one has the right to create the atmosphere that has I always do this when I stand at Dispatch Box. I am clearly been created in my hon. Friend’s constituency. now in my fifth role in this Parliament so I must be My hon. Friend raised several questions in his short doing something wrong. I think I have broken all records— speech. The best news that I have heard today is that five Departments in four years in one Parliament. I try the site is now down, and is no longer operating. Let us to stand here sometimes and think to myself, “What hope that continues to be the case—not least, perhaps, would I think if I were the constituency MP who had as a result of some of the comments that I am about to raised this issue today?” First, I would be on the Back make. Benches raising the issue in an Adjournment debate. It Let me also take my first opportunity as policing is absolutely right and proper that this issue has been Minister to praise the police throughout this great brought to the House this evening. What would I do? I country of ours, both in the devolved parts of our would be complaining on behalf of my constituents Union and in England and Wales. The fact is that 99.9% and of myself; my hon. Friend represents himself in his of the police do a fantastic job for us day in, day out, on constituency as the MP for that constituency. I would 365 days of the year. I think that more politicians make a formal complaint with my concerns to the chief should stand up and say the sort of things that my hon. constable in North Wales. Friend has said today, although he is obviously concerned I know that sounds complicated sometimes. Often about the actions of some—and it is always the “some” constituents say to me and the Department, “You are whom we talk about: those who have let us down, let complaining to the people who you think have done 887 North Wales Police and Anonymous 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 North Wales Police and Anonymous 888 Blog Site Blog Site [Mike Penning] days, naturally. Although we have a review on the ongoing role of the IPCC and what sort of complaints something wrong.” That is right. It is right and proper it should deal with, in my opinion, that is exactly where that, if mistakes have been made and concerns exist, this complaint should be going. any force, whether that be the police force or the local To sum up, I am really sad that my hon. Friend has health authority, has the opportunity to address the had to raise the issue. He has done the right thing in concerns of our constituents. If we are not happy, in doing so. It is a tiny minority of police in this country this particular case, it should go to the Independent who cause problems. If that is the case in North Wales, Police Complaints Commission. That is, in my opinion, and it has not been addressed by the correct complaints where this should go, if my hon. Friend is not happy, procedure, my hon. Friend has the right and should and clearly he is not, with the response that he has had take it to the IPCC. from North Wales. Question put and agreed to. It would be difficult for me to go further than that because the Independent Police Complaints Commission is what it says on the tin—independent. I have met the 8.18 pm chairman and chief executive only in the last couple of House adjourned. 215WH 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 216WH

North Tees and Hartlepool Hospitals NHS Foundation Westminster Hall Trust is closing two nurseries, at North Tees hospital and Hartlepool hospital. Will she join me in expressing Tuesday 9 September 2014 shock at such a decision, which will lead to excellent provision going away and lots of jobs being lost?

[SIR ROGER GALE in the Chair] Pat Glass: I am disappointed to hear that, because I remember visiting those nurseries when I was an assistant Nursery Schools director of education in Sunderland in the mid-1990s. They were seen as a beacon of good integrated practice, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting bringing together education, health and social services. be now adjourned.—(John Penrose.) They were offering what we were hoping would be the future. 9.30 am Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): It is a pleasure, Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate Sir Roger, to serve under your chairmanship—something the hon. Lady on securing this debate on an important that I seem to have done quite a bit recently; we are subject. On a slightly more positive note, will she entertaining one another on the same Bill Committee. I congratulate the six Cambridgeshire nursery schools—three welcome the Minister to his place. We genuinely look of which, Brunswick, The Fields and Colleges, are in forward to working with his team, and I hope his my constituency, and one of which, Homerton, is a few appointment will usher in a new era of listening, which metres outside it—on being part of the first nursery we have not had a lot of from the Department for teaching school in the country? That shows that there Education team in the past four years. He will be can be excellence, which we can, I hope, spread to relieved to know that I do not intend this debate to be everywhere else. made up of political ping-pong; the neglect of nursery Pat Glass: Yes, I congratulate them. That is exactly schools in this country spans this Government and the the model that the Education Committee was suggesting previous Government. I hope, however, that we will at for nursery schools in the future. I am pleased to hear least get a Department that listens to what is happening that; perhaps the hon. Gentleman and I can have a chat and ceases the neglect. after the debate. The maintained education nursery sector does not have a long history in this country. Prior to the 1970s, David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the local authorities were prevented from opening education hon. Lady for giving way. Chair, I apologise for being nursery schools and offering early-years education. I do slightly late. On a point of clarification, given her not know why that is, so do not ask me, but that was experience can the hon. Lady say whether we have the what happened. In the early 1970s, the rules were changed necessary qualified staffing for nursery provision? Is and local authorities were encouraged to provide nursery that an issue? Some 130,000 places were issued this year, education for pupils aged three and above. Prior to that, but there are still tens of thousands of spaces that most centres known as nursery schools were social cannot be filled. Is there a staffing problem? services-run provisions or health-run provisions, largely admitting children with significant special educational Pat Glass: I will come to staffing in nursery schools in needs or children on the at-risk register. From the early a moment. The qualified teaching staff in nursery schools 1970s onwards, local authorities started to open education are what makes them so good. nursery schools, often concentrating on areas of deprivation There were 475 nursery schools in 2003, and there are first. The first nursery schools that opened in the 1970s now 414. While the number of nursery schools has were often large, 52-place provisions, offering early steadily reduced, the number of children attending them education to 26 children in the morning and 26 children has remained pretty static. There was a dip in the in the afternoon. mid-2000s, but admissions are rising again as a result of Once the benefits of early universal provision became increasing numbers of live births, and because clearer from the 1980s onwards, local authorities started educationalists and parents recognise the additionality to follow a policy of opening nursery classes attached to that nursery schools deliver. infant or primary schools, with the long-term intention However, as local authorities have been hit by of creating universal coverage, but that meant that local unprecedented cuts in funding since 2010, nursery schools authorities often had an uneven pattern of provision by are finding themselves at greater risk. There is no doubt the 1990s. Nursery classes were attached to most, but that each nursery school place is relatively expensive not all primary schools, and large nursery schools often when compared with a nursery class place, but the sited in the wrong geographic areas. From the early evidence is clear that that is because of the high proportion 1990s onwards, there was a programme of gradually of graduate and teacher-trained staff. It is equally clear reducing standard numbers in nursery schools, that that is what gives them their additionality and amalgamating nursery schools and nursery classes and makes them so successful. They provide great outcomes closing some nursery schools. There were moves to for all children, including the most disadvantaged, and more appropriate buildings or more appropriate geographic they outperform any other form of early-years education settings for others. provision, even that in the most affluent areas. That is an important distinction. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. I know she has Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): tremendous experience in child services. She talked I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate. I about closures, and we have learned on Teesside that the absolutely concur with her on the high standards achieved 217WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 218WH

[Annette Brooke] school and that nursery classes cannot therefore be judged against nursery schools, but I remind him of in maintained nursery schools, but is she concerned that what I just said: 90% of nursery schools are judged to one of the hits on the maintained sector was moving to be good or outstanding, with the same results in the single funding formula prior to 2010? We need to disadvantaged and affluent areas. That goes beyond look at funding for good quality nursery education. what we can say about the primary sector across the country. Pat Glass: I absolutely agree, and I will come to that. Of nurseries inspected between 1 January and 31 March I thank the right hon. Lady for her intervention. 2014, 55% were judged outstanding in comparison with What is happening to nursery schools now and why 8% of primaries and 14% of secondaries. The disparity should that matter? As I said at the beginning, all is huge. I also remind the Minister that I do not have to Governments—this Government, the previous Government rely solely on statistics to support my case; I can draw and no doubt the next Government—periodically state on 25 years of direct experience in education, and I that they want good schools for every child, the best know what I have seen over and over again in nursery possible start in education, particularly the most vulnerable schools. and disadvantaged, and good outcomes. Yet successive Of nursery schools judged by Ofsted up to 30 June Governments have failed to recognise that that is exactly 2013, 58% were rated outstanding in leadership and what they have in nursery schools. management, which compares with 20% in primary, Every Government say that they are not in the business 29% in secondary and 39% in SEN. Nursery school of closing good schools, and yet that is precisely what is provision is extremely well managed and is recognised being allowed to happen through the neglect of this as such by Ofsted. I ask the Minister to consider that sector. Historically and currently, nursery schools have 62% of nursery schools are in 30% of the most provided the best educational outcomes of any model disadvantaged areas in England, so we are getting in the early-years sector for all children, particularly outstanding results and leadership despite the fact that those who would be described as vulnerable or the schools largely operate in such areas. There are a disadvantaged. That is why what happens to nursery higher proportion of nursery schools in the north-east—it schools now matters and why it is important that we appears that there may be slightly fewer in future—than intervene. we would see nationally, and those nursery schools are Everyone is talking about school readiness as the concentrated in the most disadvantaged areas of the silver bullet to improved early-years outcomes, but Ofsted’s most disadvantaged region. Yet we are seeing incredibly evidence to the Education Committee’s recent inquiry good results. into early years and child care showed us very clearly Nursery schools admit children from many different that when it comes to school readiness, nursery schools backgrounds and give priority to children in social and are the most successful delivery model. They are also medical needs categories. That is confirmed by the the most successful model when it comes to integrating Department for Education’s survey statistics: at least pupils with SEN, including the most severe SEN, into 11% of children at 47% of nursery schools have special mainstream schools, and I will talk a little more about educational needs. No other category of school, except that later. Furthermore, they are the most successful special schools, comes anywhere close to that level of model for narrowing the gap in the early years, for admission and yet no other category of early-years helping to get vulnerable children and families into a provision comes close to the outcomes that nursery more secure place and for long-term outcomes for their schools achieve with SEN pupils. Ofsted has highlighted small pupils. that nursery schools have particular expertise in the I do not just rely on Education Committee evidence. teaching of young bilingual children. Children from Ofsted evidence clearly demonstrates that 90% of nursery BME backgrounds make up 33% of nursery school schools are judged to be good or outstanding. That pupils and yet have outcomes that outperform BME goes way, way beyond any other form of early-years children of a similar age attending nursery classes, even provision in the system—here or in any other developed in the most affluent areas. The statistics really highlight country, so far as I am aware. the quality of the provision that nursery schools provide. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My hon. Friend A significantly higher proportion of maintained nursery is explaining that stand-alone nurseries are the best schools offer wrap-around day care provision than any form, and all the evidence points to that. Is the key other form of maintained early-years provision—just factor in that the quality of the staff? By improving the kind of provision that the Government say that they quality and standards and providing qualified teacher want to support working parents and parents training status for all lead staff in all nursery settings, can we for or looking for work. Nursery schools often provide have the same standards in other nursery settings or it much cheaper than can be achieved in the non-maintained does she think we should be moving towards having a sector, which is one of the reasons why parents like greater number of stand-alone nurseries? them so much. Why on earth have successive Governments not recognised the value of nursery schools and stopped Pat Glass: I will discuss leadership in nursery schools the threats to their future? It is beyond me. The Government shortly, but the Education Committee model suggests say that they want good schools and these are the best that nursery schools should stand at the centre of the in their sector by far. hub-and-spokes model, providing good practice out to In her last appearance before the Education Committee nursery classes across their region. on 18 June, the previous Minister, the right hon. Member I expect the Minister to tell me in his response that for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), appeared to primary schools are judged as a whole, that there is no give just two reasons why she was not wholly supportive separate Ofsted inspection of nursery classes in a primary of nursery schools. She told me that 219WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 220WH

“49 local authorities do not have any maintained nursery schools SEN—children with less significant SEN and perhaps at all” younger children—but it never works out that way. As but I reminded her that that meant that 153 or 154 local soon as it became known that we were looking at authorities have at least one and that many have more. inclusion, I received two phone calls. One was from a It seemed sensible to the Select Committee that local 14-year-old child who had spent her life in a special authorities and the Government should use these highly- school because she was in a wheelchair and had brittle specialised beacons of excellence to build good practice bones. We would think that amazing nowadays, but it across authorities. The Minister also told me that nursery was the norm in the 1990s—it appears that if someone schools are expensive, and they are—this is where things stepped off a path and twisted their ankle, they would do become slightly political, because it is about priorities— end up in a special school. The girl told me that she because they employ a head teacher, a higher proportion wanted to go to university and recognised that that was of graduate staff and qualified teachers. That, too, is much less likely to happen if she continued to attend a why they are so successful. special school. Yes, these tried and tested, highly successful schools The second phone call was from the parent of a may be slightly more expensive than nursery classes, but two-year-old with quadriplegia—he had a little bit of they are nowhere near as expensive as the experimental, head movement. He was a delightful little boy and he is untried and untested free schools programme that the a delightful young man now. His mother wanted, as was Government are pushing so hard and that has a budget absolutely her right, mainstream school provision for overspend, at the last count, of well over a billion her child. We definitely started with the more difficult pounds. It is not only me who recognises the value of end of SEN. nursery schools and is concerned about Government I worked closely with the head teachers of the Oxclose policy. The British Association for Early Childhood cluster, comprising the nursery, primary and secondary Education described them as “beacons of high quality” schools. The only thing that they had going for them at and as playing the time was that they were on the flat and close “a leading role in developing the early years work force”. together. By far the most important factor, however, The Ofsted chief inspector’s first annual report in 2014 was that the head teachers of the three schools shared on early years noted: my vision of what inclusive provision should be. “The only early education provision that is at least as strong, or If the Minister goes to Pen Green, which is halfway even stronger in deprived areas compared with wealthier areas is up the country, will he please go a little further and visit nursery schools”. the Oxclose cluster in Sunderland? If he wants to see If we are concerned about narrowing the gap and, like truly amazing, inspirational and outstanding provision the Education Committee, about outcomes for white that will move him, he could go nowhere better. Oxclose working-class children, nursery schools in deprived areas nursery school was truly inspirational then for all its seem to be the most successful model. pupils and is truly inspirational today. I strongly advise the Minister to visit any of the schools mentioned or Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): any of the 400-odd nursery schools across the country if Does the hon. Lady agree that one of the best early he wants to see outstanding early-years provision. Do it visits that a new Education Minister could conduct quickly, because that provision is under threat. would be to the Pen Green centre, which the Committee The very future of nursery schools is under threat in has visited, to see the masters and PhD courses? It not an era of local authority cuts, Government pressure on only provides an excellent local service to children, schools to expand reception classes, rising infant class many of whom are from deprived backgrounds, but sizes, the expansion of foundation provision and relentless also acts as a beacon of best practice and education for Government pressure to push more and more children a much wider area—nationally and internationally. The into schools earlier. Minister would be spending his time well. Nursery schools are facing constant pressure to merge with local primaries. A recent survey of nursery schools Pat Glass: I agree. The Minister smiled at that, so I highlighted how maintained nurseries are on a knife am assuming that he has heard of Pen Green, which is edge, threatened by cuts in local authority funding, known internationally for its outstanding provision. based on the flawed premise that they are simply one Margy Whalley will make him feel very welcome. more form of child care and pressure from Government Nursery schools right across the country are providing that funding levels for all providers should be the same, outstanding outcomes for young children and I could with no recognition of the special provision offered or give the Minister a long list that would start with Pen of the way in which nursery schools can and do outperform Green, but I want to mention just two. The Rachel every other form of early-years provision. Keeling nursery school is situated in one of the most More than three quarters of nursery schools in the deprived parts of London and yet has been identified in survey said that they were concerned about their immediate the “The Effective Provision of Pre-School Education” future viability or that they faced imminent loss of their report as providing high-quality early education that independence. None faced immediate closure, but many has a continuing influence on its young pupils’ intellectual said that they were at risk of closure in future, while and social development and their subsequent progress only 12% said that they were optimistic about their in school. future. Yet the Department for Education’s own child Oxclose nursery school in Washington is another one care and early-years parents’ survey for 2012 to 2013 that I know well. When I was working with parents in highlighted that the value of nursery schools was beyond Sunderland in the early 1990s to include children with the number of children enrolled, acknowledging the special needs in the mainstream, we thought, rather vital role that they play in training early-years professionals foolishly, that we would start with the easy end of throughout the sector. 221WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 222WH

[Pat Glass] that they had. None the less, it is possible to allow infant schools to do more for younger children and to The number of nursery schools has gradually eroded provide good or, I hope, excellent provision in an area, over the past 10 to 15 years. The Government need to without destroying those often long-standing nursery look at that carefully. Ministers go all over the place to schools that are brilliant today. That is the appeal to the look for good practice, but seem to fail to recognise that Minister: not to get so caught up in coherence and we have outstanding practice in this country and we are uniformity that we end up, inadvertently, destroying letting it wither on the vine. I am calling on the Government jewels that might not be everywhere, but certainly are to wake up before it is too late. They must recognise present and deserve to be preserved. At that point, I how good nursery schools are and the vital contribution could sit down— that they make—not only to the children whom they admit, but to the training of early-years specialists Bill Esterson rose— throughout the sector. I call on the Government to stop the financial and educational neglect that is leading to Mr Stuart: And I will, to give way to the hon. an unstable future. Gentleman. The right hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) mentioned the financial pressure Bill Esterson: I am giving a chance for a pause for on nursery schools. In 2010 the Government rolled thought. The hon. Gentleman mentioned Denmark 14 different grants into the single funding formula and and Holland—I went on those visits—and much higher they have subsequently rolled more grants into the spending is clearly committed to early years in those early-years funding formula. That is what is putting countries, as part of the contribution of having such nursery schools under pressure: the refusal to acknowledge well-trained and excellent staff. Does he agree that that that not all nursery provision can survive on the same is the route we need to go down in this country? To do amount of money. It is not about being equitable across so, to make the case and to be accepted by Governments the system but about recognising where good practice is of whichever colour, do we need to demonstrate that and accepting that it does need to be paid for. Let us that would be not only a cost, but a long-term saving? recognise that nursery schools offer the best and most successful provision in the early-years landscape and Mr Stuart: I will come on to funding and raising the build on that. status of early years. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will come back to that, but he is right. Nursery schools do a particularly good job of supporting 9.52 am children from poorer homes—that is worth saying. The Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Government’s educational reforms have two main aims: It is a pleasure to take part in the debate under your to raise standards for all and to close the gap in attainment. chairmanship, Sir Roger, and to follow the hon. Member If we have things that do a peculiarly good job in for North West Durham (Pat Glass), who is a distinguished looking after the interests of disadvantaged children, member of the Education Committee. As she showed in we should be extremely wary before risking, inadvertently her powerful and passionately argued speech, she is or otherwise, their destruction. deeply informed about education and the welfare of Ofsted’s early-years report, published in March, stated young people. that only just over a third of children from low-income The future of nursery education is an important backgrounds reach a good level of development in the issue, and one at which the Education Committee looked early years. In some local areas, that figure is less than a closely during our inquiry into Sure Start children’s fifth. Crucially, some types of provision, such as centres last year. As I touched on, we visited the Pen childminders, are considerably less likely to be good or Green centre for children and families in Corby, run, as outstanding in deprived areas. By contrast, Ofsted found the hon. Lady said, by the brilliant Margy Whalley. We that children from low-income families make the strongest also visited the Netherlands and Denmark in February progress when supported, as has been said, by highly 2013 to compare provision for early years in those qualified staff, in particular with graduate-level countries with that in England. qualifications. Where are such staff most frequently found? In nursery schools. The clear message we heard is that education is too important to wait until children reach school age. In To quote Ofsted’s report: particular, we concluded that if we are serious about “Nursery schools have high levels of graduate level staff and closing the attainment gap for disadvantaged children, perform as strongly in deprived areas as in more affluent ones.” it is imperative that Ministers should set out coherent, Of how many types of educational provision can we say long-term thinking on early years and children’s centres. that they perform as strongly in deprived areas as in It is worth asking the Minister—a central message from more affluent ones? I cannot think of one, actually, but many of us today—not to let coherence or a desire for we have nursery schools managing to achieve that, to uniformity and equity to allow or excuse the destruction achieve what the previous Government and this of rare, peculiar centres of excellence that do a brilliant Government want to do for social justice, delivered job and that are found to be doing so by everyone who through education. I again make the case: let us ensure looks at them. that we do not inadvertently lose them. The Government have a vision of doing more through Despite that, the Government’s policy seems a little schools, utilising the resource, and we heard during our confused. The Education Committee expressed regret hearings on the children’s centres that perhaps the previous that the right hon. Member for South West Norfolk Government made an error in building entirely new (Elizabeth Truss), the then Parliamentary Under-Secretary things, rather than better utilising the infrastructure of State for Childcare and Education, now the Secretary 223WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 224WH of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, will have to take the existing budget and orient it more showed little enthusiasm for maintained nurseries, many to the early years. It could be said that this Government of which have closed over the past decade. Likewise, my have done that in a number of ways, from abolition of Committee expressed concerns about how the Government’s the education maintenance allowance—that act was ambition to create an integrated nought-to-18 teaching enormously unpopular—at one end to the introduction work force will be delivered successfully. It is important of the offer for two-year-olds and its extension from to focus on that, although it sounds like a soundbite. An 20% to 40% at the other. integrated nought-to-18 teaching work force is the The truth is that considerably more money is being Government’s stated policy. The then Minister told us spent on early-years provision, despite overall constraints that she wanted on spending. I would imagine there will a combination “to see a much greater consistency across the teaching workforce of some re-engineering—a lot of which will be unpopular, and much less of a silo between the early years and primary as anyone we take the money away from will hate us for school”. it—and potentially finding additional funds. However, Who can say, in any party, that she was not right to do given that this supposedly austere Government are still so? spending over £100 billion a year more than they have With that in mind, Ministers have set out their plans coming in, I am not clear that additional funding outside to reduce the number of different early-years qualifications, the budget could easily be found. to improve the quality of training and to raise the status and quality of the work force by replacing the current Bill Esterson: I probably did not make myself clear early-years professional status qualification with new enough in my earlier intervention. The point I was grades of early-years teacher and early-years educator. driving at is how we make the case for using money Early-years teachers will be graduates and will need to further upstream. It is about the costs of social failure meet the same entry requirements and pass the same that are avoided by getting early-years provision right. skills tests as trainee school teachers. So far, so good: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the case can be there is an inspiring vision of integrated nought-to-18 made for saving money later in life by getting early-years teaching work force, with an upgrading and re-engineering provision to the highest standard possible, that will deal of the training, requirements and qualifications of those with the point he is making? working in that sector. They will not, however, be accorded qualified teacher status in the same way as Mr Stuart: Well, it will, but not for a Treasury Minister. primary and secondary teachers. That is not to visit the As the hon. Gentleman will know, every Department obsession of the shadow Secretary of State for Education, comes along and says, “If only you gave me more the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram money, you’d save so much later. No one would go to Hunt), with the tiny number of people who are not prison and you’d be saving money all round.” qualified teachers, which seems to be a sideline in the Understandably, the Treasury is a little sceptical. On overall education debate; it is to go to the heart of the that basis, we would for ever simply throw more money status of those people in relation to those who work in at the education system, because if we only provided the primary schools. right start in life, we would have greater economic My Committee concluded that the Government are success and more highly skilled industries, and would right to want to increase the qualifications of the early-years live in nirvana. work force. As Susan Gregory of Ofsted reminded us, The greatest thing I can say about the previous the historic situation is that Government’s education policy is about how much they “you need a higher qualification at entry level to work with spent on education. The fruits are slow to emerge, but animals than you do to work with young children.” that is not to say that there are not benefits to be had if those resources are used well. Given the constraints we Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): The are under and the overspending by Government today, hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case for raising let alone five years ago, we are going to have to find the standards in early-years education, with which I money for early-years provision from re-engineering wholeheartedly agree. I am interested in his comments our education budget. That could be said to be the more about the new qualification. May I infer that he agrees mature debate. It is always easy to say, “Oh no, we that the Government should take action now to equalise should just find the additional money.”The truth is that the status of the new qualification, so that it does have that will be very difficult. qualified teacher status? It is bizarre that we have On status, the Committee said in our report that the circumstances in which graduates can earn half as message that early-years teachers will not be equal to much for teaching those between the ages of nought teachers in schools is “strong and unjust”. On pay, we and five as if they chose to teach early-years three to said that it is not enough simply to set out a vision of seven. Some early-years teachers can command twice equality with other teachers: if we accept the premise the salary. Is that not a poor state of affairs? that the early years are a peculiarly critical time in a child’s development, Ministers need to set out—and Mr Stuart: I agree with the hon. Lady that that is an this is the key point, whether it is done through finding anomaly in the Government’s vision for the future. more money or re-engineering the budget— There is an inconsistency. However, I would gently “a course of action…to a position where equal pay attracts equal chide her by saying that the money has to be found from quality” somewhere, because there are real cost implications. If of applicants. That is the key. We cannot have Government we are going to will the ends, we have to will the means, setting out an aim of an integrated work force, with that and that will mean taking tough decisions—unless people equality as a premise, and then failing to put in place think that there is an infinite money tree somewhere. We any of the building blocks to take us there. At the 225WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 226WH

[Mr Graham Stuart] use of over £1 billion of taxpayers’ money to offer free school meals to the children of middle-class parents moment, it seems to be all aspiration, with very little who can already afford them, rather than deploying evidence of a closing of the gap. Even if it were to take that funding in the classroom, where it could have been 10 or 15 years, we would at least have a vision of how we used to attract and retain the quality teachers who we were going to create a genuinely integrated work force, know make such a difference to children’s attainment. in which early-years teachers were given pay and status In conclusion, the Government have more to do, to equal to that of teachers elsewhere in the education ensure the survival of maintained nursery schools, to system. encourage the development of the network of nursery At present, figures from the Pre-school Learning schools with children’s centres around the country and Alliance reveal that pre-school staff earn, on average, to set out a strategy to realise their proper aspiration for £17,000 a year, which is only around half as much as an integrated nought-to-18 work force. primary school staff, who earn an average of £33,000. The former Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member 10.7 am for South West Norfolk, confirmed that England has the biggest gap in salaries between those who work in Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): I nurseries and those who work in schools of any country congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North in western Europe. As all members of the Select Committee West Durham (Pat Glass) on calling this important here today, and others, know, the key issue in raising debate on an issue that I know she has long campaigned educational quality for anyone, at any time, is the quality about. I will adopt her spirit and approach the debate in of the teacher. That is what counts. If we pay people a non-partisan fashion. The two speeches we have heard half the rate of what is paid to those working with have shown that that spirit is being maintained. children who are just a little bit older, is it any wonder I also welcome the Minister to the Front Bench. We that we struggle to bring in the innovators, pioneers and have had an exchange of sorts in the main Chamber, greatest communicators? We need to set out a plan—it but this is our first opportunity to debate some of the would be good to hear the Opposition’s funded plan issues here in Westminster Hall. I see from the profile of from their Front-Bench spokesperson—to bring about him in The Independent today that he and I have two that outcome. things in common: first, like me, he has a passion for It can be no surprise that there is a continuing disparity early-years education and the impact it can have on the of status between early-years and school-based teaching. life chances of children; secondly, like me, he attended The impact of that lower status is felt beyond the issue Somerville college. I was in the last all-women year of attracting high-quality recruits into the nursery sector. there, so I know that he is younger than me: he must Naomi Eisenstadt told us that the perceived low status have come in the vanguard of men who subsequently of children’s centre staff can create a barrier to successful followed. On that point, I was slightly horrified to see multi-agency working, adding that the all-male Somerville team on this year’s “University “if you do not have status within the community and you ring the Challenge”, but I digress. health agency, they are not going to ring you back.” Delivering equal pay for early-years teachers would Mr Graham Stuart: I forgot to welcome the Minister of course require the extra resources I have talked to his place, which was very rude of me. It is a delight to about. see him in his position, bringing his youthful enthusiasm to the early-years sector and the challenges it brings. Alex Cunningham: The hon. Gentleman will have heard me refer earlier to the nurseries at the North Tees Lucy Powell: I thank the hon. Gentleman, and yes, and Hartlepool hospitals, which are scheduled to close. the Minister obviously is very youthful—more so than He has talked about staff. The Ofsted report on the me, clearly. nurseries says: This debate on nursery schools is important because “All staff attend a wide range of training to develop their they have become the poor cousin in the sector. They knowledge and skills”, fall between two stools: they are not considered to be so there is ongoing professional development in that schools in many legislative frameworks, nor are they hospital nursery setting. Does he agree that that model like other nursery providers in the sector, as others have should be rolled out elsewhere? Does he also share my said. The Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member opinion that those making the decisions on those nurseries for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), had a mission might have benefited from the scrutiny and clinical and a drive to expand provision of nurseries in the examination that he would have given them had their school setting, something which I shared with her. decision come before our Committee? However, she did not have the same zeal for nursery schools. That was a missed opportunity. I hope the Mr Stuart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Minister, as her successor, will rectify that position. I point. I do not know all the details surrounding that will come on to some of the things that could be done in case, so I will not rush to judgment on those who made that regard. that decision, but he makes powerful points, which I On the wider debate about early-years provision, the hope will be heard clearly by those responsible for those Chair of the Education Committee, the hon. Member centres, as they consider what they will do about them for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), is absolutely in the future. right to say that high-quality, skilled, graduate-led settings The issue is that we either find additional money or are the very best that we can offer, especially for the rebalance the existing budget. Speaking for myself, that children, in my community and many of the communities gives us yet another demonstration of why it was a poor represented here today, who do not have the best start in 227WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 228WH life because they do not have the advantages—the home schools to see the Department some months ago and learning, the communication and the security at home—that pressed that exact case. I hope we may hear the Minister’s many of the most advantaged children do. As policy thoughts on that subject. There is an opportunity to makers, we have a responsibility to get that right. unleash places such as Pen Green and others through More specifically, nursery schools are consistently academy status and allow them to innovate and further the highest-graded part of the early years system, as has expand what they do in future. been said. Some 96% are graded “good”or “outstanding”, many of them in some of our most deprived communities, Lucy Powell: I am pleased to hear that the hon. including my constituency. That compares with 64% of Gentleman took such a delegation to see Ministers. I childminders and 76% of other child care providers in hope some of that is taken forward. I passionately our community. They are the crème de la crème of the believe that we cannot do early years on the cheap. This system in early years in many of our most deprived will require some tough decisions on how slim resources communities. As my hon. Friend the Member for North will be spent, but will allow some of the best examples West Durham said, where they exist they act as a hub of of early years education in this country to have not only leadership across the whole provision in their area. the extra resources that are coming into the system, but They have a unique role in doing so. The evidence is the freedoms to give them the security and allow them incredibly strong that nursery schools are the beacon to have the sort of innovative, creative and leadership for the highest quality provision in the early years. role that the Oxclose cluster or Martenscroft nursery I will comment on some of the challenges that maintained school in my constituency provide in some of our most nursery schools face and how we might begin to address deprived areas. some of them. The challenges and threats are specific, In conclusion, I reiterate the points that have already for a number of reasons. As has been said, the single been made. My party has to accept its responsibility for funding formula was intended to create a level playing ignoring the potential of nursery schools during our field. However, for a number of reasons nursery schools time in office. Nursery schools provide some of the best have fallen foul of the funding system. First, nursery education and provide for some of our most vulnerable schools have higher overheads compared with the private, children, not just those who are deprived, but those voluntary and independent sector because they are with disabilities, special educational needs and those required to employ qualified teachers. They also have who would elsewhere be turned down by private providers, higher costs because they are required to have specialist which do not have to accept them. My hon. Friend the head teachers—something that their equivalents in the Member for North West Durham recently published a PVI sector do not have. We have already heard about fantastic report on child care for disabled children, the additional value that that brings to the education which is a long-forgotten issue in this area. Parents with provided in them. For that reason., many local authorities disabled children face barriers up to 10 times greater provide nursery schools with a much higher hourly rate than those without disabled children. than some of their competitors, but that is significantly under threat, given the cuts that are coming to local Alex Cunningham: I am grateful that my hon. Friend authority budgets. raised the issue of children with special needs. Claire Yet this is an issue not just of funding, but of status Guffick and Russ Andrews’s 16-month-old son Dylan in the system. Because nursery schools are seen neither attends the North Tees nursery that I spoke about as schools nor as nurseries, they cannot enjoy some of earlier. He has a severe form of atopic dermatitis—a the freedoms and powers that schools enjoy. Nursery form of eczema. He is registered disabled because of the schools are not eligible for things such as the pupil high level of care he needs. His mother said: premium. The Chair of the Education Committee, the “We visited a number of nurseries but North Tees was the only hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness, asked how nursery able to cater to his health condition and also cater we could rebalance the system. I would strongly welcome towards his restricted diet.” the extension of the pupil premium to the early years. That is all the more reason why that nursery should be There is significant scope to add more value by drawing saved: it caters for the very special needs of very special down the pupil premium earlier. However, as nursery children. schools cannot qualify for that money, which does not come on stream until next year in any case, they are unable to take hold of this opportunity and lead the Lucy Powell: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. debate on how the pupil premium can be best used in He and I both attended the launch of the report by my the early years. The pupil premium has huge scope for hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham, providing the kind of early intervention that my hon. which examines how we can better look at meeting the Friend the Member for North West Durham described. child care costs of parents with disabled children. We heard some profound examples of just the sort of Another anomaly is that nursery schools are unable situations that my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton to become academies. Nursery schools are unable to North (Alex Cunningham) describes. Nursery schools take that opportunity while we are in this dog-eat-dog are often the only option that many parents have. I world in the education sector, where all schools are would gladly join the Minister in making progress on trying to come together or achieve the freedoms of the issue. academy status, therefore leaving behind a smaller and smaller cohort of maintained schools and a smaller and If the Minister has not done so already, I urge him to smaller role for local authorities. read the final report of the Education Committee on some of the issues we have been debating. There are Mr Graham Stuart: I am glad the hon. Lady has good recommendations in it, and perhaps he will use raised the issue of allowing nursery schools to become today’s opportunity to update us on how he is advancing academies. I took a delegation of heads of nursery those. Does he agree with me about enabling nursery 229WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 230WH

[Lucy Powell] Maintained nursery schools make up a very small part of early education in this country. As we have schools to hold the pupil premium for the early years? heard, there are now 414, compared with nearly 7,000 Will he consider the question of allowing nursery schools primary schools with nursery classes—6,843, to be some of the freedom that other schools have to take on precise—and almost 18,000 private or voluntary day academy status? nurseries and pre-schools delivering early education. We have a mixed economy for child care and early 10.20 am education. To respond to what the Select Committee The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education Chair said, that should be evidence enough that the (Mr Sam Gyimah): I congratulate the hon. Member for Department is not pursuing coherence at the expense of North West Durham (Pat Glass) on securing today’s equity. We do not actually have a coherent sector at all; debate. She has a long and commendable track record we have a mixed economy, with different types of provision. in education and the welfare of young children, within and outside the House, and I thank her for obtaining Alex Cunningham: I congratulate the Minister on his the debate. I thank the Select Committee Chairman, my new role. I do not want to be boring about the North hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness Tees and Hartlepool hospitals nursery closures, but (Mr Stuart), who made his case with characteristic they are part of the mixed economy the Minister has forcefulness, and the shadow spokesperson, the hon. talked about. Can he suggest any intervention he could Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), for her make? Could his officials speak to the hospitals about arguments. I did not realise that we shared an alma advice or other help that the Government could provide mater. I notice that she is wearing the colours of Somerville that would save the specialist provision of those nurseries college, red and black, today. However, I guess we share for disabled and other special needs children? That something even more important, in that we are both would enable parents to set their anxieties aside. parents. When it comes to early years, we have the same objective as most parents—wanting the best start in life Mr Gyimah: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman write for our children. There is no greater responsibility or to me, and I will then respond accordingly and get my privilege. officials to look into the matter. The hon. Member for North West Durham made a I am conscious of the time, so I shall race quickly point about listening, and in the spirit of willingness to through my remaining points. Closures have been mentioned listen, I will mention that the Department is planning a several times. The small number of closures that have series of visits. We will make sure that Pen Green happened are not necessarily a sign of a long-term nursery school in Corby is on that list, and I shall trend or a decline in the number of maintained nursery go sooner rather than later. I thank her for that schools. Some have merged or federated with neighbouring recommendation. schools, so some of the reduction in the overall numbers from 468 10 years ago to 414 now is down to sensible We can all agree on the importance of early education. restructuring based on assessment of local need. Despite The research about effective pre-school, primary and that reduction, I can reassure all hon. Members that the secondary education published by the Department for number of pupils attending maintained nursery schools Education today shows that the effects of pre-school has increased over the same period, from 39,000 in 2004 last to the age of 16, so it is vital to ensure that children to 40,000 in 2014. The hon. Member for North West get a good pre-school start. In that context, maintained Durham would describe that as static, but it is a modest nurseries are delivering. As we have heard several times increase, and it does not seem at all like a decline to me. in the debate, they are often doing that in disadvantaged areas, where such high-quality provision can make the There is as much protection for maintained nursery greatest difference. I fully support those schools where schools as there is for any other school, if not more. they are delivering high-quality, sustainable provision Local authorities cannot close maintained nursery schools responsive to parents’ needs. One example of that is without following due process. In fact the current school Beechdale nursery school in the constituency of the organisation guidance, published in January 2014, states hon. Member for North West Durham, with outstanding clearly that provision and additional child care beyond the free “there is a presumption against the closure of nursery schools”. entitlement. Another is the maintained nursery schools That does not mean that a nursery school will never that are part of the Bristol early-years teaching consortium, close. Indeed, it cannot be right to guarantee that where designated teaching schools link with local primary maintained nursery schools will stay open at all costs, schools and private-sector providers to share their best without ensuring that they provide sustainable, high-quality practice. I look forward to the continued success of provision that meets the needs of local parents and those fantastic maintained nursery schools, and more children. Nevertheless, the case for closure should be like them, in the years to come. strong. The guidance requires that We should always bear three things in mind in considering “any proposal to close should demonstrate that: plans to develop child care and early education. We need it to be accessible, alternative provision clearly demonstrate that it will be at least as equal in terms of the quantity as the provision provided by the affordable for parents and of high quality. There has nursery school with no loss of expertise and specialism; and been some discussion of priorities, and with that triangle replacement provision is more accessible and more convenient for the equation is not always as straightforward as it can local parents”. seem. With child care, one size does not fit all. Parents are obviously concerned about their children’s learning Bill Esterson: The Minister’s predecessor made it and development, but often they also want somewhere clear that her preferred route was for nurseries to open for them to be looked after while they are at work, or in schools, at the expense of stand-alone nursery schools when they need a break. Parents look for various solutions in the maintained sector. Will the Minister clarify his when they look at the child care marketplace. position? 231WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 232WH

Mr Gyimah: As I said early in my speech, parents and stage profile outcomes. Some make use of maintained their needs are the starting point. No one size fits all for nursery schools as part of local provision, but others early education and child care. We should accept that are doing that with high-quality nursery classes in primary we have diverse provision and we should support those schools and private providers, not large numbers of different forms of provision and ensure that, whether maintained nursery schools. parents choose a childminder, a maintained nursery Maintained nursery schools play an important role in school or a private, voluntary or independent setting, many areas, but our approach, including that to funding, they get the quality they expect. That has some relevance must ensure that parents retain a choice of early education to priorities, which the hon. Member for North West provision that meets their needs and, whatever their Durham mentioned. There was a suggestion that somehow choice, that they can be assured of high-quality provision. the Government’s priorities were biased against maintained Maintained nursery schools are more costly than other nursery schools. In a time of austerity, we need a providers, but it is for local authorities to determine targeted and effective approach to the early years. funding levels. There are often good reasons for higher funding levels and many local authorities have chosen Pat Glass: The Minister is saying that we need a to retain them with their single funding formula, indicating targeted approach, so will he commit to looking again that most deliver excellent value for money, but they are at the report from the Education Committee and its not the only solution. recommendations for placing nursery schools at the Many primary school nurseries and private and voluntary centre of a network? Given the quality of the provisions, providers offer high-quality, affordable early-years provision it seems sensible that they should sit at the centre of a that is good value for money, and that provision must network providing support and good practice for other also be funded fairly. We must ensure the highest-quality provisions. He should commit to the Committee’s provision across the board and our policy approach and recommendations. funding decisions should reflect that. Mr Gyimah: I thank the hon. Lady for making that point. I am very aware of the Education Committee’s Mr Graham Stuart: In their response to the Select recommendations and I will come to some of the points Committee’s report, the Government noted the engagement in a moment. As the hon. Lady rightly said, we should in teaching school alliances of nursery schools and said not just look at what other countries do, but remember that it was collecting and sharing best practice. Can the to praise the good practice in this country. There is Minister add anything now or write to me about that great practice and some excellent and visionary practitioners and whether he thinks that involvement through teaching in this country. There is a lot to be proud of. school alliances could help by sharing that expertise with others and whether funding could be provided to We have universal provision for three and four-year-olds allow continuation of the high-quality services we get in this country so every three and four-year-old is from nursery schools? entitled to 15 hours of child care. That is a tremendous achievement. The latest “Education at a Glance” report from PISA—the programme for international student Mr Gyimah: My hon. Friend the Chairman of the assessment—puts us in the top 10 of OECD countries, Select Committee makes an excellent point, and I will which we can be proud of. More than 90% of three and write to him on that specifically. He alludes to quality four-year-olds in this country receive 15 hours of free and we know that a large proportion of maintained child care at the moment. nurseries deliver outstanding provision, and in areas where maintained nursery schools rightly remain part On targeting, the Government have introduced the of the answer, we want local authorities to work with free early-years entitlement for two-year-olds, which them to ensure they spread their expertise. We are will benefit 260,000 two-year-olds from the least advantaged seeing that already. Nineteen maintained nursery schools families in the country who will receive 15 hours of care are designated teaching schools and a further 109 are a week. We should be proud of that, but we must be members of a teaching school alliance. I will write to targeted in how we use finite resources. the Chairman of the Select Committee with the details We have also introduced the early-years pupil premium, of how that is working. In Bristol, for example, where which is £300 a year for three and four-year-olds. I maintained nursery schools are linked to local primary assure hon. Members that maintained nursery schools schools and private sector providers in a teaching school will receive the early-years pupil premium from 2015 alliance, they can share and disseminate best practice. and I hope that private voluntary independent organisations That is an important way to guarantee the continued and maintained nurseries will use that to help to boost success of our best, high-quality maintained nursery their ability to attract higher-quality staff for children schools. in nurseries. Qualified teaching status and early-years teachers There is a lot to be proud of, and the Government were mentioned by the hon. Member for North West have a plan and clear priorities for the early years. Durham. I believe, as do all hon. Members here, that However, funding for maintained nursery schools is there is a need to raise the status and quality of the obviously an issue, and we fund that provision through professionals in the early-years sector. We cannot say local authorities to enable them best to make decisions that early years are critical to a child’s development and for parents and children. Some 49 local authorities do not do everything we can to attract the best people into not have any maintained nursery schools and 43 have the sector. There are several ways of doing that. For only one or two. Therefore, a funded approach that example, one of my first decisions as Minister was to treats maintained nursery schools differently would not look at the early-years educator level 3 qualification. be fair to those areas. Many areas of high deprivation On literacy and numeracy, staff who qualify for level 3 have good inspection results in early-years foundation must have GCSE level A to C in maths and English. We 233WH Nursery Schools9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Nursery Schools 234WH

[Mr Gyimah] what we are discussing can be done in a number of ways and that there are knotty issues, but they need to set out phased that in for the first year and it will be on exit, but a strategy for how the proposals can be implemented. after 2015, they will have to have that on entry to start a At least, we can then discuss it. Will he commit to level 3 early educator course and to qualify. producing a strategy to bring about the true integrated A broader issue is attracting graduates to early-years nought-to-18, or nought-to-19, work force the Government education. QTS is one way to do so, but not the only say they want? one. We cannot set pay expectations for all early-years providers. The private voluntary independent sector is Mr Gyimah: I thank my hon. Friend for another significant in the early-years sector, so we must think of forceful point. As I said, it is in my in-tray. It is something ways of attracting the best graduates into the sector. that I am looking at, and at the appropriate moment, I will let him know what my thoughts are. Lucy Powell: I do not know whether the Minister has Ofsted assessments were also raised, I think, by the met some of this year’s cohort on the course, but many hon. Member for North West Durham. I assure her that have come to me to complain that they were misled from September 2014, Ofsted will give primary schools about the course because they thought that they would a separate assessment for their early-years provision. have the same pay and status as if they had done the other available course for full qualified teaching status. I Pat Glass: Ofsted will give a separate assessment for appreciate the impact on the sector of looking at these early years, but the Minister will no doubt be aware that issues, but we must be mindful of attracting people to that early-years assessment will include nursery classes, the courses. People have the choice of becoming fully reception and year 1 and the foundation stage, and qualified teachers, early-years qualified teachers or to therefore will still not be a direct comparison against qualify as a new early-years graduate. They will vote the nursery school, which is purely nursery years, prior with their feet and choose where they think they can get to reception. the best paid job because they all come from the same place. The Minister must think about that. Mr Gyimah: There are different Ofsted inspections, depending on the type of organisation, but one thing Mr Gyimah: The shadow Minister makes an excellent that is not in doubt is the quality of the provision of point. If people believe they were misled about a course, maintained nursery schools. That is not in doubt at all. the first solution is to ensure that the details are In summary, I think that we all agree that maintained communicated clearly to people when they sign up. On nursery schools provide excellent provision. They do a the broader issue of discrepancy in pay, we must look at tremendous job in meeting local needs, especially in that as it applies to the whole early-years sector, not just deprived areas. In a mixed economy, with maintained between primary school teachers and early-years teachers. nursery schools, private and voluntary providers, and The problem can be addressed in several ways. However, nursery schools in primary schools, they have a role to there is a more fundamental point. I was speaking to play. They have greater protection than other sorts of Andreas Schleicher, who presented to the Department providers, and because there is a presumption against on the PISA rankings yesterday, and raising quality is closure, the local authority has to think long and hard not just a question of increasing the salary; we need to before embarking on closure. I shall bring my comments ensure that we have the right sort of career progression. to an end by saying that, yes, we value them, but the If we look at other countries where teachers are very starting point for this—whether we are looking at provision, motivated and excited, they have career progression quality or funding—should be parents, and when it built into the system as well. It is a knotty issue to get comes to parents, there is no one size fits all. We should around, but it is in my in-tray and I am looking at it. therefore support diversity of provision in the sector. Mr Graham Stuart: The central ask is that having set out the aspirations so clearly, the Government need to 10.43 am come forward with a strategy. The Minister said that Sitting suspended. 235WH 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Asbestos Removal 236WH

Asbestos Removal built before 2000, who have more than 25 employees. In many instances, the advice is to employ a qualified asbestos removal contractor who is licensed and monitored 10.57 am by the HSE to remove the asbestos in a controlled and Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): It is a appropriate manner. However, I will detail how that pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, process is not always as safe as some at the HSE might and to have secured such an important debate about the envisage. role of the Health and Safety Executive in asbestos removal. Since the debate was tabled, I have been contacted Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. by numerous people who have informed me of unsafe Gentleman for bringing this important matter to the asbestos-removal practices that are happening in various Chamber for consideration. He has outlined the role of locations and businesses across the country. I thank the HSE, but 4,000 deaths a year are still caused by each and every whistleblower for getting in touch. I asbestos poisoning. The last asbestos training pledge regret that I cannot elaborate in great detail on many of initiative took place from September 2011 to November their stories this morning because of time constraints. 2011. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that it is time Instead, I intend to focus my remarks on a very specific for the Government to initiate another such campaign area—the HSE’s role in the removal of asbestos from to educate people across the whole United Kingdom of high street stores. Great Britain—not only on the mainland, but in Northern I shall focus on three key areas. The first is the Ireland, Scotland and Wales as well? deficiencies in the HSE when it comes to adequately assessing the scale of the asbestos problem on our high Steve Rotheram: That is a timely intervention. I absolutely streets. Next, I shall consider the HSE’s ability to enforce agree that it would be appropriate to revisit that strategy regulation and how the HSE is involved in the process at this juncture, and that is part of what I will ask the of asbestos removal, and suggest improvements to Minister to provide us today. I will also ask the Minister procedures that would provide better protection for the about updating education to ensure that people are public. Finally, I shall examine the moral and ethical fully aware of the dangers of exposure to asbestos. position of our high street retailers and question whether Throughout my speech, I will refer to numerical risk they are doing all they can to protect people or whether ratings. For the benefit of those who are not from the the financial imperative—the need to drive profits— construction sector, I want to clarify that the risk rating obscures their duty of care. ranges from 1 to 20, with 20 representing the highest I shall begin by looking at the existing legislation and risk. Disturbed asbestos that is rated 18-plus usually regulations in this area. The Control of Asbestos refers to asbestos likely to come into direct contact with Regulations 2012 place a duty to manage asbestos on the public—for example, on the shop floor of a store duty holders in respect of non-domestic premises. The through the ventilation system or in an area of a store duty holder will usually be the person or organisation that is easily accessible to staff and maintenance workers. with responsibility for the maintenance or repair of the Millions of our constituents, and shoppers from across premises. The duty holder is required, among other all five continents, flock to Britain’s high streets on a things, to take reasonable steps to find out whether daily and weekly basis. Our retail industry is truly one there are materials containing asbestos in non-domestic of the great British success stories. With that success premises and, if so, the amount, where it is and what has come the need for high street retailers constantly to condition it is in; to make and keep up to date a record rebrand themselves as companies and to update and of the location and condition of the asbestos-containing upgrade their facilities to improve the retail experience. materials or materials that are presumed to contain The refurbishment of their properties usually has to be asbestos; to assess the risk of anyone being exposed to done as efficiently and as effectively as possible to fibres from the materials identified; to prepare a plan ensure that it does not have a detrimental impact on that sets out in detail how the risks from those materials profit margins. will be managed; to take the necessary steps to put the Although asbestos was for many decades believed to plan into action; periodically to review and monitor the be a perfectly reliable and safe material to use in plan and the arrangements to act on it, so that the plan construction, people are no longer in any doubt about remains relevant and up to date; and to provide information its dangers and health risks. When the 2006 regulations on the location and condition of the materials to anyone were introduced, the HSE was given clear instructions who is liable to work on or disturb them. on how to deal with asbestos removal in commercial Further, the duty to manage asbestos is a legal units. However, retailers consistently try to minimise requirement under regulation 4 of the Control of Asbestos disruption to their stores and trading hours, with the Regulations 2006. That applies to the owners and occupiers result that asbestos—often in ceiling voids, where dust of commercial premises such as shops, offices and could be moved by air conditioning and ventilation industrial units, who have responsibility for maintenance units—has the potential to come into contact with staff and repair activities. In addition to those responsibilities, in shops. In some cases, dangerous fibres may find their retailers, as duty holders, have a duty to assess the way on to the shop floor and the space used by the presence and condition of any asbestos-containing public. materials. If asbestos is present or is presumed to be That is not speculation or an unlikely hypothesis. In present, it must be managed appropriately. 2011 it was widely reported that high street giant Marks In the context of today’s debate, it is clear that the & Spencer was prosecuted and fined £1 million for duty holder is the high street retailer that occupies a failing to protect customers, staff and workers from unit or building. The Health and Safety Executive has potential exposure to asbestos. The court case detailed produced a step-by-step guide for duty holders in buildings works carried out during the refurbishment of the 237WH Asbestos Removal9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Asbestos Removal 238WH

[Steve Rotheram] surveys have disturbed asbestos products in buildings with a rating of 18 and above, those products should Reading and Bournemouth stores in 2006 and 2007 in not be contained indefinitely in restricted areas. which asbestos regulations were not followed. Billy I am led to believe that there are fewer than 150 HSE Wallace, a health and safety practitioner from Greenwich inspectors engaged in monitoring the removal of asbestos in south London, was a key witness in the case, and I throughout the whole country. In reality, an inspector have a copy of his statement to the HSE from 21 December spends only one day a fortnight on site inspecting the 2006 regarding his experiences at the Reading store. I licensed removal of asbestos. When the surveys were will read a passage from it, which makes scary reading: first brought to my attention by Billy Wallace, it was “I was asked to work at the refurbishment of Reading Marks made clear to me that the HSE believes that any asbestos and Spencer...when I arrived at the job, I became concerned by that has been disturbed and rated 18-plus must be my observations of many contractors working on and within removed, no questions asked. When pushed, however, ceiling voids because I suspected the ceiling tiles were asbestos the HSE seems content with disturbed asbestos rated insulation boards...In order for these operators to carry out their 18-plus simply to be placed in restricted areas. works they were rubbing and pushing against asbestos tiles, both Marks & Spencer now has an industry-leading health damaged and broken asbestos fillets...I could not find any history of tool box talks, especially related to asbestos which could have and safety team that specifically looks at disturbed been particularly pertinent to these works in areas known to asbestos and its removal. The team, however, does not contain asbestos...The impression I got was that there were severe as a matter of course remove disturbed asbestos when it pressure and constraints on all contractors to get the job done at is initially identified due to the prohibitive costs. We any risk...In my opinion the shop floor would have been contaminated must equip the HSE with the flexibility to undertake with asbestos on many occasions, thereby placing the public at unannounced field visits outside normal working hours, risk...I strongly suspect that members of the public on many when most asbestos removal is undertaken. As the HSE occasions would have left the M&S store having purchased contaminated goods (foods, clothing, furniture etc)...This is because budget continues to be cut, there is increased likelihood the merchandise was still in the shop and vicinity of the works that inspections will not take place at all in high street being carried out which on many occasions would have generated stores. asbestos fibres”. We could also consider introducing an annual inspection When I read that statement, I immediately began to of every commercial store in Britain to analyse in detail wonder how widespread the practice was on our high the property’s safety and to ensure the removal of any streets. How many shops visited by our constituents disturbed asbestos that has been identified. That would contain asbestos that may have been disturbed during eliminate incidents in which asbestos is left in restricted refurbishment or maintenance work? Could the food areas for decades. For some employees, customers and chains in such shops really have been contaminated, as contractors who may have been exposed to asbestos, alleged in Billy Wallace’s statement? Could clothes that however, it would come as too little, too late. It is people purchase contain highly dangerous asbestos fibres? already a matter of public record that Marks & Spencer In his summing up on the Reading case, Judge Clark has been forced to pay out large sums of money to alluded to the tension that he believed existed in Marks former employees who have contracted asbestos-related & Spencer between health and safety and profit: diseases following lengthy stints of service in its stores. Marks & Spencer is by no means alone in the practices “The response from Marks and Spencer was in effect to turn a that it employed, and it has agreed out-of-court settlements blind eye to what was happening…it was already costing the with a number of former employees. company too much money”. Just a few months ago, the investigative journalist After investigation, I obtained copies of more than David Conn reported that Janice Allen, an M&S employee 30 fully intrusive asbestos surveys at Marks & Spencer in the Marble Arch store in the 1970s, settled out of stores across the UK. I will give hon. Members a court with M&S for a six-figure sum after contracting flavour of the type of comments recorded. One states: mesothelioma. The dangers that M&S staff encountered “third floor fallow area, main staircase, debris, risk rated 19 (out were exposed due to the diligence of health and safety of 20), action: restrict access to fallow areas and bring in licensed professionals such as William Wallace, but the truth is asbestos removal contractor” that nobody knows how widespread the dangers could be. We simply do not know how much disturbed asbestos That survey was dated 21 May 2003, and as far as I am identified through surveys carried out by licensed asbestos aware, the asbestos is still there; there is no record of its contractors is still lying in commercial units on high ever having been removed. The argument is that as long streets across the country; perhaps worst of all, neither as it is left alone and undisturbed, it poses no risk. does the HSE. Although the HSE currently endorses that position, it is I am confident of five things. First, to the best of my a theoretical consideration rather than an example of knowledge, and barring the conviction in Reading, M&S best practice. That prompts a fundamental question: has not broken the law as it stands. Secondly, and far how can the HSE be presented with such surveys and more alarmingly, from the surveys that I have seen both never follow up on whether companies have removed Marks & Spencer and the HSE know that dangerous the asbestos? 18-plus risk rated asbestos is still on sites across the The examples I have highlighted are from high street country.Thirdly, putting a restriction on disturbed asbestos retailers, but the same may be true of hospitals, schools—I and leaving it for decades is simply not good enough. know that the right hon. Member for Mid Dorset and Fourthly, profit should not take precedence over people North Poole (Annette Brooke) is very concerned about in the application of enforceable safety practices. And that—public buildings and other commercial and domestic finally, the HSE is weak. units, in which duty holders have undertaken fully intrusive The treatment meted out to William Wallace has services, identified asbestos and notified the HSE, only been of great concern. Instead of Mr Wallace’s expertise for the process to stall. I believe that where fully intrusive being utilised to help improve asbestos removal practices, 239WH Asbestos Removal9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Asbestos Removal 240WH he has been ostracised. This is a man who, through his The HSE’s advice on asbestos is clear. If the material dogged determination to uphold the law, defend the containing asbestos is in good condition and is not rights of workers and see that justice is done in the vulnerable to damage, it should be left in place because courts, has undoubtedly saved lives that would otherwise the risk to those who work in or use the facilities will be have been put at risk through asbestos exposure. That lower than if an attempt is made to remove the material. has come at a tremendous personal cost. Mr Wallace If the material is in good condition, removal is better believes he has been blacklisted, and he has been unable done at the end of a building’s life, when the building to find permanent employment for the best part of a will not be reoccupied. If the material is not in good decade. Let us be clear: he is not just a whistleblower condition, however, or if it is likely to be damaged or but a trained health and safety professional who deserves disturbed, leading to the release of asbestos fibres, it the thanks and praise of Parliament. should be removed. I know my debate is specific to the high street and Those decisions should be taken on a case-by-base that the Minister may not have all the specific answers basis because they depend on the specific situation of to some of the issues I have raised. I am, however, the building, the location of the asbestos-containing looking at pragmatic steps that he may be able to take materials, the likelihood of their being disturbed and, to ensure that the risk of asbestos exposure is reduced. of course, the future plans for the building, such as Will he seek assurances that all recommendations laid whether it will be refurbished or whether it is coming to out in the judgment of Judge Christopher Harvey Clark, the end of its life. Those duties fall on the duty holder. QC, particularly on toolbox talks for staff, have been That is the HSE’s approach, and the current regulations, implemented by the retailer in question? Does the Minister which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, and the legislative agree that such practices should be carried out by other framework on the risk, and on dealing with the risk retailers where asbestos has been identified in their proportionately, was reviewed relatively recently by the stores? Is he satisfied that retailers are adequately informing Government’s chief scientific adviser, who thought that and educating staff currently working in some older the legislative framework is proportionate to the risks high street branches of the potential dangers to their from asbestos. The framework is good. health of asbestos exposure? In the case of Marks & Spencer, which was mentioned Does the Minister agree that the public will find it by the hon. Gentleman, there were two stores being difficult to accept that Marks & Spencer can still have refurbished in Reading and Bournemouth in 2006. As high-risk, previously disturbed asbestos in its stores he said, the work required the removal of asbestos- that it has not removed despite a recorded risk rating of containing ceiling tiles. Marks & Spencer took the 18-plus? Does he believe that the inspection and enforcement decision to remove the asbestos and engaged licensed of asbestos removal regulations by the HSE is being contractors, who were asked to work overnight in enclosed implemented as he would expect? Is he willing to accept areas so that small areas could be completed, thereby that the HSE knows about disturbed asbestos and does enabling the shops to open the following day. not seem to be fundamentally willing to enforce removal However, the way the work was planned did not action? Does he share my concerns about the potential allow the contractors to remove the asbestos in accordance exposure to asbestos, over many decades, in some of with minimum standards. As the hon. Gentleman said, our high street stores? If he is unable to answer any of there was a prosecution for failings under the Health those questions fully because of time constraints or and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, which led to significant because he has only just heard some of the claims, I fines for Marks & Spencer and for some of the other would appreciate it if he committed to writing to me companies involved. The prosecution was brought by further about the issues. the HSE, and it is right that there were significant penalties because asbestos, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said in his brief intervention, 11.15 am causes the deaths of a significant number of people in The Minister of State, Department for Work and the United Kingdom—many from exposure over a Pensions (Mr Mark Harper): It is a great pleasure to considerable period. The best estimate, which I think he serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I am grateful suggested, is about 5,000 a year, so the issue is serious. to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Duty holders must take appropriate steps. Rotheram) for having secured this debate, which enables On Marks & Spencer’s continuing work on the issue, us to discuss an important subject. I can answer a I should say that licensed contractors undertaking asbestos number of his questions, but if he thinks that there is removal must notify the enforcing authority. Since 2011, anything that I have not answered, I will of course be the HSE has received 112 notifications of such work happy to write to him. that were identifiably related to Marks & Spencer stores The responsibility for the management and control of and has inspected on 14 occasions. In those cases, it has health and safety risks, including from exposure to found that no enforcement action needed to be taken, asbestos, ultimately lies with those who create the risk. meaning that the work was being conducted in accordance As the hon. Gentleman correctly said, the duty holder with the appropriate risk controls. will be those who either own or control buildings that The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton mentioned contain asbestos or materials that contain asbestos, and retail premises generally. It is worth saying that the they have a duty to manage safety. Duty holders include retail sector takes this issue seriously. The Retail Asbestos retail stores and other businesses used by members of Working Group deals with managing asbestos-containing the public. People need to identify where asbestos- materials in the retail sector, recognising that retail containing materials are present, and they need to ensure environments involve circumstances and conditions that that such materials are either properly maintained, enclosed present challenges in terms of public access and dealing and repaired, as appropriate, or removed, where necessary. with removing and managing the risk from asbestos. 241WH Asbestos Removal9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Asbestos Removal 242WH

[Mr Mark Harper] about when asbestos is best left in situ and when it should be removed. My sense, not being an expert, is A range of organisations are involved in putting together that judgments about the condition that the asbestos is guidance, and the guidance includes a foreword by the in and when it is best left there are a technical question. head of construction at the Health and Safety Executive, The hon. Gentleman mentioned some specific surveys demonstrating that it sets out what steps retail premises that had come into his possession. If it is helpful, I will of all sizes should take. I mention that because the hon. ask officials to advise me on the issue of where retailers Gentleman specifically referred to training and the sorts or others have identified damaged asbestos, to use his of work done by retail premises. phrase, in situ and the decision is taken to leave it while The guidance makes it clear that there is a range of containing it. I will ask for advice on that and write to training. Some of it involves those undertaking licensed him. It might be helpful if he shared some of the asbestos work for high-risk situations, but it also goes specific reports that he mentioned. I would be happy to right down to information and training for shop assistants ask some of the HSE’s technical experts to look at them who put up notices and decorations, maintenance and see whether that asbestos properly falls into the contractors who carry out daily repairs and other category of situations in which it is best and safest to contractors who enter such premises to undertake work leave it where it is, or the category in which action that might expose them to asbestos. The guidance is should be taken. It sounds more like a technical, case-specific clear that training must take place across a range of question, but I am happy to ask the experts to look at staff in the retail environment. I hope that that at least those reports and come back to me. Then I will report gives the hon. Gentleman some confidence that retail back to the hon. Gentleman what their professional businesses are aware of the requirements. judgment is. It is also worth saying generally, so that the hon. Gentleman and others are aware of what the regime Steve Rotheram: That would be a partial solution. looks like, that where it is decided that the proper What I am trying to understand is whether the Minister management of the risk from asbestos-containing materials thinks the situation is acceptable, given the framework involves removing the asbestos, licensed contractors that he has outlined and the fact that HSE’s guidance must be engaged and the enforcing authority must be says to remove asbestos. I am talking about broken notified 14 days before work starts. That will either be pieces of asbestos, not a hole in the wall. I am talking the HSE or local authorities, which can then plan visits about dust being left. It is obviously dangerous; it is to monitor the work done. 18-plus risk-rated asbestos. Surely best practice would In the year 2013-14, the HSE received 37,553 notifications be to get rid of the asbestos as soon as reasonably and did 1,318 inspections, meaning that 91% of all practicable. Does the Minister think that a decade is a those holding a licence were visited in that year. Those suitable time scale? reviews are taken seriously, so evidence of unsafe or poorly managed work can result in formal enforcement Mr Harper: I was clear in what I said; the HSE action, which may lead to stopping the work or, in the advice, which I think is sensible, is also clear. If the most serious cases, to prosecutions. Licences can also be material is not in good condition—from the hon. reviewed. Gentleman’s description, it sounds as though that is the It might be helpful for the House to know that there case—and it is likely to be damaged or disturbed, are 415 contractors licensed to remove asbestos as of leading to the release of asbestos fibres, it should be April this year. Licences are for a fixed period of up to removed. Duty holders have a responsibility to do so, three years. To give an example of the quality assurance and to ensure that their workers, shoppers and others involved in the process, 188 licences, including renewals, are not exposed to that risk. were granted in 2013-14, while 25 were refused, and On judgments in specific cases, as I said, I take the 91% of those licensed contractors would have been hon. Gentleman’s word for it; he has read the reports visited by the Health and Safety Executive at one or and I have not. Clearly judgment must be made on a more sites where they were removing asbestos. Over the case-by-case basis, which is why I said that it would be past five years, the HSE has issued 1,715 improvement helpful, just to get a flavour of the issue, to have experts notices, 552 of them under the duty to manage asbestos, look at the reports that he mentioned to see whether the and taken out 129 prosecutions, 24 of them under the HSE’s guidance is being complied with and, if not, duty to manage the risk from asbestos. The HSE is whether action can be taken. absolutely focused on the importance of monitoring It is a shame that the hon. Member for Strangford asbestos removal, and it takes robust enforcement action. has left the Chamber, as I was just about to address his Steve Rotheram: The Minister is being helpful in intervention on the campaigning idea. He and the hon. identifying the legislative framework in which the industry Member for Liverpool, Walton mentioned training and must work. Is he therefore concerned that asbestos education. The HSE has well advanced plans to run materials with a risk rating of 18-plus have been left in another campaign this autumn particularly targeting what have been described as fallow areas within stores at-risk tradespeople, such as plumbers, joiners, builders for years, even up to a decade? Surely that flouts what and electricians, who are aware that asbestos is dangerous he said at the beginning about the HSE guidance that but are often ill-informed about how to deal with the damaged asbestos should be removed as soon as reasonably risk. practicable. The campaign will include the distribution of 200,000 free asbestos safety kits, information and a web app to Mr Harper: Let me address that point directly, as the help people work more safely with asbestos, as well as a hon. Gentleman spent some time on it. The general national and regional media campaign that will cover principle that I set out was that the guidance is clear Scotland and Wales as well as England. Northern Ireland— 243WH Asbestos Removal 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 244WH this is particularly relevant to the hon. Member for Cyprus Strangford—will make its own arrangements, but the HSE will provide advice about the campaign and share relevant information so that it can be run across the [MR GARY STREETER in the Chair] whole United Kingdom. To return to the point made by the hon. Member for 2.30 pm Liverpool, Walton about a toolbox, I should say that everyone involved in the sorts of trade affected, whether Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is a they are licensed contractors or tradespeople who may pleasure to speak in this important debate under your be exposed to risk, should be properly educated about chairmanship, Mr Streeter. the risk and the steps that they need to take to ensure I welcome this opportunity to raise the issue of that they do not expose themselves to the known risks Cyprus. I also welcome the Under-Secretary of State from asbestos. We want to reduce the annual death toll for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend resulting from historical exposure to asbestos. I hope the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), to that that is helpful, and I think that I have set out clearly his post; he will respond to the debate. what work we can do after this debate to take forward It should be noted that a number of my hon. Friends the hon. Gentleman’s points. are not present. In fact, there are not a huge number of hon. Members in this debate, but that should not suggest 11.30 am that there is a lack of interest in Cyprus in the House. Sitting suspended. There are particular reasons why a number of Members cannot attend. A number of members of the all-party group on Cyprus, who would normally take part, are out campaigning for the Union. Furthermore, my hon. Friends the Members for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) and for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) are in Committees. I also wish to make a particular reference to the chair of the all-party group, my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord), who is unwell due to a detached retina. He is now undergoing surgery and we send him our best wishes. This is my first opportunity to pay tribute to the late hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton. He was a good friend of Cyprus and fought for many causes. As we know, he stood up primarily for human dignity, from the very beginning of life to the end. He has been described by many others as a man of great principle and I am sure we all agree that he is a great loss to the House. We send our condolences to Pat and the rest of his family at this difficult time for them all. My hon. Friend the Minister has much to occupy him, given his brief, particularly in relation to the middle east—let alone having to cover Cyprus while the Minister for Europe, my right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), is travelling overseas. However, therein lies one of the main reasons for raising Cyprus as a subject for debate; there are so many countries of concern to the Foreign Office that it would be a surprise if Cyprus was not up there as a priority. One of the primary purposes of this debate is to emphasise that a solution to the Cyprus problem must be a priority, and it would be good to receive an assurance from the Minister in that regard. Cyprus is not just an issue for Cyprus itself; given the troubles across the eastern Mediterranean, particularly in relation to the middle east, a reunited and stable Cyprus must be good—not only for the island itself, but for the wider region. The other reason for the timing of this debate is that this has been the first opportunity for one since the 40th anniversary of the division of Cyprus and the Turkish invasion of the island. Others may wish to remark that it is more than 50 years since a power-sharing agreement between the two communities in Cyprus collapsed, in the wake of the island’s independence from Britain; we can go back in history and pick particular moments to focus on. However, the point of this debate is that it 245WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 246WH

[Mr David Burrowes] hear from the Minister about the impact of increased US diplomatic involvement and its significance in trying provides us with a formal opportunity to reflect on the to reach a solution, or at least in gaining momentum passage of those 40 years, such that Cyprus—sadly—is towards a solution. now the longest-standing western dispute. Other areas Obviously, an immediate significance of Cyprus is of conflict have seen peace and unity break out, with the use of the sovereign base areas. Can the Minister divided capital cities being reunited and different confirm whether they are being used to provide communities reconciled. The Berlin wall has come down humanitarian aid from Akrotiri or being considered to and Germany has been reunified, but Nicosia stands provide future support for allies in the region? Also, alone in Europe as a divided capital. although the Minister may be may less able to comment How sad it is that after these 40 momentous years on this issue than on others, the use of Ayios Nikolaos Cyprus remains divided, with more than 40,000 troops GCHQ—in terms of intelligence for the whole middle still situated in northern Cyprus, which I understand east—should be noted. It amplifies the strategic value makes it one of the most heavily militarised parts of the of Cyprus in the wider region. whole world, let alone Europe. It is extraordinary that there is such a continuing heavy military presence, given A few months ago, I had hoped to participate in a that since 2003 there have been 18 million incident-free debate on Cyprus in the House with a positive view crossings of the green line. about the optimism arising from the joint declaration on 11 February, but sadly the recent news from Cyprus Since I have been in Parliament—no doubt my neighbour, is negative. President Erdogan referred to “two founding the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), will be able states”, which I understand soured talks between Greece to take us even further back in history—a rally has and Turkey at the NATO summit last Friday. taken place outside this House every July. Those rallies have mainly been attended by women, who hold pictures Having been elected, the President initially spoke of of their brothers, nephews, cousins, uncles or other Cyprus as one of his four key priorities, which in many relatives. The people in the pictures are the missing. For ways was encouraging—not least because of the number 40 years, those women have not known what has happened of other priorities, problems and challenges that Turkey to their relatives; the men are missing, presumed dead, has. One would look at Cyprus in that context and but the women do not have any information about think the problem eminently solvable, with good will on them. The missing people are their loved ones and the all sides. It is also encouraging that Cyprus is such a women have a basic human right to receive information high priority for Turkey, given the key influence that about them, but that information has been lacking for Turkey will have on the island’s future. However, after all these years. the President’s comments last Friday about “two founding states” and citizenship, that influence does not appear That right transcends communities, and we should to be a positive one. note that the reality of missing persons is one shared by both the Greek-Cypriot and Turkish-Cypriot communities; Such comments take Turkey backwards from showing later, I will mention the progress made in relation to the that it truly wants a settlement; indeed, in making them missing persons committee. The point is that every year, it goes back on its support for the Annan plan in 2004. every month, every week and every day that goes by The comments constitute not a solution but, sadly, a without a solution to the Cyprus problem is a human perpetuation of the division of Cyprus, and they fly in tragedy for all Cypriots. That reminds hon. Members, the face of the United Nations basis of the talks and the the Government and even those of us who have been commitment to a reunited Cyprus based around a involved with this issue for many years that we must not single legal personality. They cast a dark shadow over rest until we have a solution to the Cyprus problem that the talks between Greek and Turkish Cypriot leaders delivers justice and respect for the human rights of all and, sadly, they do not bode well for the future success Cypriots. of negotiations, particularly when opening sensitive Wherever one stands and whatever one’s viewpoint, chapters on territory and citizenship. the current situation throughout the island is as unacceptable It is vital that Turkey backs a realisable settlement. and intolerable in 2014 as it was in 1974—and given the Erdogan is understandably receiving criticism about his history of conflict in Cyprus, the island’s problems go increasingly authoritarian policies in Turkey. Many of back even further than that. my Turkish constituents—I join them—want Turkey to The timing of this debate is important given the talk and act like a liberal democracy with great potential, recent events in Cyprus and Turkey. This last week, which we all want, because that is important for itself President Erdogan has visited northern Cyprus and the and the wider region, including Europe. It is important UN Secretary-General’s new special adviser has arrived for Turkey to talk and act like a liberal democracy, on the island. In addition, there has been the NATO rather than slide into being an illiberal, authoritarian summit, which I understand provided an opportunity state. for Cyprus to be discussed, at least by Greece’s Prime It is also plainly in the interests of Britain, which Minister and Turkey’s new President. I hope that the supports Turkey’s accession into Europe, that Erdogan Minister, who attended the summit, can confirm that. should talk and act in relation to Cyprus in a manner Perhaps he can also say whether the importance of that respects the democracy and human rights of what establishing peace and unity in at least one part of the is a European nation state. Given the significant relationship troubled region—namely Cyprus—was discussed by the between Britain and Turkey, and Britain’s role as a NATO allies. guarantor power, how do the Government respond to Plainly, Cyprus has an important strategic role in the the comments that have been made? What are they region, which appears to be increasingly, and helpfully, going to do about what would appear to be continuing recognised by the United States. It would be good to Turkish intransigence on the Cyprus question? 247WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 248WH

Will the Minister confirm the Government’s ongoing to the Prime Minister last year. The petition, and similar support for the United Nations and high-level Cypriot motions placed before the House, promotes the immediate agreements? On 11 February, the then Foreign Secretary return of the city of Famagusta to its lawful citizens in said in a statement: advance of any comprehensive solution. It notes that “The Joint Declaration they adopted is an important step such a confidence-building measure, which is supported forward, and provides a real opportunity to secure a lasting and by the United Nations, would act as a bridge for a comprehensive settlement…Many of the broad principles for a settlement. It has also gained the interest of the United united Cyprus have now been agreed, and I trust that the parties States. Vice-President Joe Biden visited in May and will now negotiate in good faith on that basis until a final wanted to find support for a technical team to be settlement has been reached…With continued co-operation and allowed into the fenced-off part of Varosha to start to pragmatism, and a sustained commitment to the vision of a assess the state of the buildings. Sadly, that did not reunified Cyprus, the two communities will be able to agree a solution which they will approve by referendum.” happen, although many think it vital to provide genuine confidence for a positive outcome—not just in getting Those were positive words, and rightly so. However, is to the point of a solution on paper, but for voting in that declaration really valid? One also has to accept that favour in a referendum. Turkey’s then Foreign Minister and now Prime Minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, had detailed discussions with Dr Eroglu Additionally, more immediate economic and social before that key, important declaration was made, but do benefits will accrue to both communities. There is a we now have to reflect on whether President Erdogan’s United Nations development programme project for call for two founding states affects these fundamental developing co-operation between Famagustians living foundations of the negotiations? in Famagusta and those in Deryneia, which would be assisted by another checkpoint at Deryneia. I look Since February, there has been a series of leaders’ forward to the Minister’s confirming the previous helpful meetings between Nicos Anastasiades and Dervis Eroglu responses from the Prime Minister and the Minister for and the negotiators. In addition, the two negotiators Europe about the Government’s absolute commitment have made one cross-visit to Turkey and Greece respectively, to justice for Famagusta and what they are doing to speak with the Foreign Ministries in each country. about it. Unfortunately, I understand that the cross-visits planned to Ankara and Athens did not take place in August. Other confidence-building measures can happen, not least in relation to cultural and religious heritage. Cyprus As a guarantor power, do the Government envisage has heritage of great value that needs to be valued by all themselves, as a nation, having any role in meetings communities, and by us all. I welcome the leadership of before a settlement is reached? Given that the Republic the Swedish embassy in Cyprus, which has helped tackle of Cyprus is a full member of the European Union and some issues of access and supported real work on will continue to be after what we hope will be the churches and mosques around the island, from the solution of the Cyprus problem, one has to regret that Tekke in Larnaca to Apostolos Andreas in the Karpas Ankara does not accept the reality and does not recognise peninsula. Some Maronites have been allowed back to the Republic of Cyprus. Furthermore, I understand worship in one village—I have raised this issue previously that Ankara and the Turkish Cypriot leadership reject in the House, as have other hon. Members—but they any notion of further EU involvement in the negotiation are still, intolerably, excluded from their basic right to process. What are the Government, as a member of the worship, because their churches are in an army camp EU and a guarantor power, doing to convince Ankara and a military area. to change what seems to be an unproductive stance? It is good to hear about work taking place to restore Veterans of these debates and talks over so many the Othello tower in Famagusta and I understand that years will know that confidence-building measures are the Armenian monastery in Nicosia has been largely often pursued. Unfortunately, no confidence-building restored with US support. What is the United Kingdom measures have yet been agreed. The key confidence-building doing to support former British cultural heritage as measure is the return of Famagusta. President Nicos well? I appreciate that the Minister will probably not be Anastasiades’s proposal for the return of Famagusta is able to reply in detail to all these specific points and that a positive and practical step. It is a tangible sign of the Europe Minister with the brief will be able to, so I determination to move the Cyprus issue out of the should welcome a note on any detailed points. current deadlock and create the conditions that will Much more needs to be done to restore religious and give necessary impetus and momentum to efforts for a cultural heritage and respect for freedom of worship. In comprehensive settlement. It is in the interests of Greek a region, and a wider region—we will no doubt debate and Turkish Cypriots to return Famagusta to its lawful this issue in the world affairs debate—where freedom of inhabitants and open up the economic benefits of the religion is often denigrated and abused, Cyprus really port. I welcome the Bicommunal Famagusta Initiative, should set an example of proper respect for the freedom founded last year. to hold and practise any faith or none. The problem is The issue is also a matter of justice that should that without more progress in Cyprus, indifference, concern us all, because for more than 40 years 65,000 perhaps, or lack of respect for religious and cultural people have not been allowed to go home. I will say that heritage can provide succour for the extreme discrimination again: 65,000 people, including my constituents, are that we see elsewhere in the middle east. essentially by force not allowed to go home to a place in I am trying to be positive and there are some positive Europe. That should outrage us as a Parliament and a initiatives. The Home for Cooperation building, created Government. from a shop left behind by an Armenian owner in 1974 Famagusta has been the subject of EU resolutions, on the road now connecting the north and south proposals and motions, as well as a petition, which I, checkpoints at the Ledra Palace, has become a hub for with other hon. Members present today, helped submit meetings, conferences and offices, and for teaching Greek 249WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 250WH

[Mr David Burrowes] the UN special adviser breathes new confidence into the process, which appears, to some extent, to be at a and Turkish languages. It is also a coffee bar. It grew standstill. out of the Association for Historical Dialogue and In the 40th year, will the Minister assure me that the Research and the building and work received the Europa Government are doing all they can to support a settlement? Nostra award in May. That is going to be celebrated on I fear that unless we see a settlement at the end of this 16 September. round of talks, we will have lost an opportunity for at The Cyprus Community Media Centre, next to Ledra least a generation. The younger generation are increasingly Palace, now has a studio that broadcasts in different disillusioned or disinterested about the prospect of a languages—not just English, Turkish and Greek. CCMC reunited Cyprus. At the very least, can we as a Parliament is asking an interesting and important question: where and a Government never give up on speaking for Cyprus are all the women in the Cyprus peace process and in and a just settlement? politics as a whole? Chambers of commerce and industry, trade unions, women’s groups, youth groups and 2.53 pm environmental groups are all doing what they can to work together. They are asking where we can fit civil Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I society into the peace process, so that people, as well as congratulate the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate politicians, feel an ownership of the process. That would (Mr Burrowes)—my immediate neighbour—on securing encourage confidence in voting yes at the end, when we this debate. I join him in paying tribute to the former have referendums. It is that confidence, which needs to hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton, who was a transcend generations, that is of real concern as time doughty campaigner on behalf of Cyprus, which was moves on. among the many issues he took up in the House. As is often said in these debates, by far the most As the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate said, this successful of the joint projects is the bi-communal is a timely debate at a time of great change in the Committee on Missing Persons, which is responsible for eastern Mediterranean. Although, interestingly, Cyprus finding sites and the exhumation, identification and did not, as I understand it, play much of a role in the return of remains to relatives. The Secretary-General of recent Turkish presidential election, the successful candidate, the United Nations, in his recent report on the UN’s Mr Erdogan, chose the country for his first official visit operation in Cyprus, underlines that it is critical that the on being elected President. As the hon. Gentleman work of the committee suffers no further delays. He indicated, he made some controversial speeches while highlighted the need to expedite the process, including there, and they have considerable ramifications for the through the accelerated granting of access to military process. areas. As the UK is a permanent member of the Security We have recently seen the interesting appointment of Council, will the Minister indicate how the Government a new UN special adviser, Espen Barth Eide from intend to exercise their leverage on Turkey to facilitate Norway; I wish him every success in bringing the parties access to military areas expeditiously? Will he confirm together for a successful negotiation. The NATO summit, that the UK continues to contribute the necessary costs if nothing else, ranged far and wide. I will return to to the operation, which benefits all Cypriot families and giving Cyprus greater priority on the international agenda, allows for some degree of closure? but the NATO summit was an opportunity that does Finally, but perhaps most importantly, there is the not seem to have been seized. I regret that Cyprus did discovery in the east Mediterranean of vast amounts of not appear much on the agendas of the meetings held oil and natural gas reserves. That has, probably rightly, there. been described by all sides as a game-changer. In the We now have in place the infrastructure for a successful immediate future, that could be game-changing negotiation. The two leaders of the communities have economically, given the real challenges facing Turkish met reasonably regularly and the negotiators appointed Cypriots. They express concern about isolation and to do the nuts and bolts of the agreement are in place impoverishment. and working hard. As the hon. Member for Enfield, Obviously, we know very well the huge economic Southgate mentioned, we have the joint declaration. challenges for Cyprus from the recent crash. The reserves Although it took some time to put together, it is a very provide an opportunity for a sustainable economic future good basis for such a negotiation, which could and that could transform the economic prospects of all should take place. A number of innovative procedures Cypriots, to the benefit of the whole island. One has to have been entered into as part of that infrastructure. I recognise, however, that the exploitation of hydrocarbons think particularly about the cross meetings, where the requires regional stability involving Cyprus, Turkey and negotiator for the Turkish Cypriot side visits Athens Israel, so the fruits of labouring for a solution are and the negotiator for the Greek Cypriot side visits immense. That is why it is important that everything is Ankara to update two of the guarantor powers about done to reach a settlement for Cyprus and the wider progress on the negotiations. I understand that the region. August meeting was cancelled, but a meeting has taken place and I hope that that will be successfully deployed The Secretary-General has stated that the appointment as a mechanism to draw the guarantor powers into the of the new special adviser on Cyprus illustrates the negotiating process, which will be critical if we are to United Nations’ determination to continue supporting make progress over the coming months. The negotiation the parties in arriving at concrete results in the coming is on the basis, as is usual with such negotiations, that phase of negotiations. Despite the momentum generated nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. That is not by the joint declaration by the two leaders on 11 February, exceptional or surprising, but we wait to see how things we must hope that the 17 September joint meeting with will develop. 251WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 252WH

Like the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate, I have Returning to the role that Britain could play, although to say that a shadow hangs over the negotiations. It is a I recognise the difficult international situation in the time to reflect that for the past 40 years the island has middle east, Ukraine and other parts of the world, I ask remained divided and the two communities separated. the Minister to re-energise international involvement in It is a time for negotiations on that failure and Cyprus and to do whatever the United Kingdom can disappointment. Whenever I visit Cyprus, I always go do. The international community looks up to the UK in to the immediacy of the green line and Nicosia, the only its role in Cyprus, so we must do more to engage the divided city in Europe. In the immediate vicinity of the international community. green line, Nicosia can be seen, frozen in aspic, as it was Of course, the international involvement situation is in 1963. That is a constant reminder that we have failed not all negative. Some months ago, Vice-President Joe Nicosia, Cyprus and the Cypriot people. It reaffirms Biden, who is the first senior US official to visit the the need for us to be hard-headed, and while we are not island since Vice-President Lyndon Johnson in 1963, optimistic, we must maintain a positive attitude towards travelled to Cyprus. The United States is re-engaging the negotiations. with the negotiation process and sees a successful conclusion Of course, it was not always that way. In 1977, the as a priority. Joe Biden seems to have a direct interest then President Makarios was able to enter into a high-level not only in Cyprus but in the eastern Mediterranean agreement that set a framework, which was built upon and seems acutely aware, as the entire international in 1979. In the 1980s, Boutros Boutros-Ghali put more community should be, of the importance of stability in detail on that framework, including political equality, the region not only because of the discovery of oil, but and we then had the Annan proposals, I to V, and the because of the current frictions that have resulted from referendums. There has been plenty of negotiation, but the division of Cyprus. we have failed to reach agreement. To echo the hon. On the negotiating process, the meetings have been Member for Enfield, Southgate, we need greater engagement frequent but, sadly, progress has been disappointing from the international community. and is going at a glacial pace. It is particularly disappointing, The United Kingdom has a unique role to play in as mentioned by the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate, that, because we have a long, historical connection with that the confidence-building measures that it was hoped Cyprus stretching back to the 1870s when it became would accelerate the process have not met with the part of the British empire. We were the main international approval of both communities. It is important that we party to the negotiations of the London and Zurich stress the need for such measures in order to boost the agreements in 1960 that set the framework for the prospects of finding an overall settlement. There are independence of Cyprus, and we were a guarantor some positives, but it is mainly negative, so I would like power in the settlement. The UK has a large Cypriot briefly to discuss some of the measures. community, many of whom live in the constituencies of Missing persons have been a critical issue since the Members present today, and Cyprus has a large, but start of the dissolution of the two communities in often forgotten, community of UK citizens. The connections Cyprus in 1963 and going on to 1967 and 1974. As has between our two countries are strong, so Britain has a been mentioned, the Committee on Missing Persons in unique responsibility. Cyprus comes to Parliament every year to remind us that they still do not know what happened to their My constituents constantly remind me that we must relatives. Closure is a luxury that has not been afforded do more to seize the opportunities of the negotiation to them. Work on this is vital and must involve both process and to involve the international community. communities to bring them together. Successes have Now may not be the most opportune moment to grab been achieved and a number of remains have been the international community’s attention, however. Problems returned to families, but there appear to be two main in Iraq and Syria, which are continuing to inflame the difficulties on which I ask the Minister to focus. The situation in the middle east, and in Afghanistan were first is adequate funding for activities to push the process foremost in concerns at the NATO summit, and if we forward and the second is access to parts of Cyprus that add to that the developing situation in Ukraine, there is are currently off limits, but where it may be possible to a great deal for the international community to deal exhume the remains of those missing following previous with. conflicts. It is the most successful of the joint projects and must be given some priority. I hope that the Minister Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I can confirm that. apologise for being late; I was detained on a Delegated The Famagusta initiative has been mentioned, so I Legislation Committee. On Ukraine, does the hon. will just say that it has the backing not only of the Gentleman agree that it is rather unusual that the President of the Republic of Cyprus, but also the Turkish- European Union seems exercised about Ukraine being Cypriot city of Famagusta itself. Bringing those two occupied and divided by a military power while being together, it should be possible to push the initiative oddly silent and acquiescent to the continuing occupation forward, to return Famagusta to international control and division of Cyprus? and to take forward what has been the major confidence- building measure that has not succeeded so far. If we Mr Love: I agree with the hon. Gentleman and would can put that in place, it should be possible for the add that Cyprus is a full member of the European negotiating process to get under way. Union and should therefore get priority over non-member Finally, religious and cultural heritage has been states. It is a constant battle to remind the European mentioned. There have been two successes. In particular, Union of its responsibilities. It took Cyprus into the we have succeeded in bringing about the refurbishment European Union, hoping that it would be reunified. of the Apostolos Andreas monastery, which is on the That has not happened, and engaging in the process tip of the Karpas—well into Turkish Cypriot territory. and finding a solution must be a priority for the EU. As I understand it, that process has now started. 253WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 254WH

[Mr Love] background, can benefit in the future.” The children and grandchildren of those living there today will hopefully Confidence-building measures could make such a have a better time, not simply because of the mineral difference to the negotiating process, but there are some resources that we have mentioned. negatives as well. President Erdogan’s speech in Cyprus As I have said, the eurozone crisis clearly is not was, to say the least, disappointing. It set back the behind us. It is entering a new phase, and the Greek negotiating process. It starts from a position that, even economy still requires a boost from the European Central under Annan, was not taken by either of the two Bank to buy its own bonds. I hope Cyprus can be an communities. I hope that President Erdogan and the element of that thinking. It is timely that political Turkish Cypriot community will reflect on the need to leaders in this country now recognise that what is happening reach a compromise on all the issues that are outstanding. in Iraq and Syria will not be over in a matter of weeks If they do so, then, after 40 years of division and or months; it will be there for years to come. We have to separation, we can reunite Cyprus as an island and ensure that Turkey is a part of that discussion and a reduce tensions in that part of the world. I hope that, part of that coalition: Turkey is, of course, a member of with oil, gas and the other benefits coming on stream, NATO, as is Greece. Turkey also has a significant we can look forward to a bright economic and political Kurdish minority. If we are to make common ground future not only for the island, but for the eastern with Kurds in Iraq, we have to recognise the sensitivities Mediterranean. in Turkey. One hopes that, in bringing them together, Cyprus can be part of the solution for the long term, 3.11 pm rather than an ongoing problem. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): It is fair to say—perhaps understandably, given the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, relative populations in Enfield Southgate and in Southgate (Mr Burrowes) on introducing this debate. It Edmonton—that criticisms have been made of President is always important to debate Cypriot affairs. Those of Erdogan, but there has been intransigence on both us who represent London seats, particularly those in sides. It is important that we progress. I have had the north London, will have large Greek and Turkish Cypriot opportunity to visit both sides of the island. Most populations; as one who contested such a seat in the last recently, I spent a few days last September as a guest of millennium, I recognise that. There are significant numbers the representative office in London of the Turkish of people of Cypriot heritage living even in my part of Republic of Northern Cyprus, to see that part of the central London to this day. On the 40th anniversary of island, having seen parts of what we would call Greek the division of Cyprus, one might argue that the debate Cyprus in previous years. There are tremendous comes at a time when both Turkey and Greece are at the opportunities there. The economy is clearly having its forefront of some important international events, which difficulties, but potentially could thrive, not just on the I shall touch on. back of mineral resources. Tourism or the educational The truth, to be brutally honest, is that Britain’s place offering that can be provided on both sides of Cyprus in the world is not as strong as it was 40 years ago. It is are important ways forward. I would like Turkish Cyprus probably not as strong as it was even a decade or so ago, not to be seen as a pariah state. An important way to not least given the decisions that have been made by encourage some cross-fertilisation across the island would Governments of all colours—by the current coalition be to ensure that more flights go directly from the UK Government and by the previous Labour Government—to to the northern part of Cyprus, rather than going via make the cuts in defence that make us less of a world Istanbul, as they are currently obliged to do. That power. However, we are still a guarantor for Cyprus, as would be an important economic first step. we were a guarantor for Ukraine, which is one reason These debates in Parliament are important. As I say, why our voice cannot be entirely ignored, nor indeed we are a guarantor power. A significant number of our responsibilities relating to those affairs. Cypriots feel strongly about this issue. From my experience However, I do think one thing very profoundly. It is as a London Member of Parliament, it strikes me that all very well to talk about our responsibilities, but there many of the Turkish Cypriots I encounter—this applies is an ongoing responsibility that, in my view, has been to many Greek Cypriots as well—do not harp on the sadly lacking in political leaders on both sides of the past. They are looking to make their lives here in the Cypriot divide. They, too, have a responsibility to look UK. They are proud of their Cypriot heritage. They to the future, rather than simply hark back in a negative have family in Cyprus and often have business interests way to the past. The Turkish and Greek Cypriot people there. I hope the UK can play a small part, but that has have not been well served by their political class over the to be by having a firm eye towards a better future, which past four decades. They need leadership with a firm is clearly in the grasp of the people of Cyprus. Above focus on where the future should lie. I say that as all, it has to be by ending a sense of grievance and someone with heritage from eastern Europe: my late blame. I hope we can play a small part in pushing it mother was an ethnic German from what is now Poland. further forward, but that future ultimately must be in It is thankful that many of the millions of people from the hands of the Greek and Turkish Cypriot political that background do not constantly hark back to lands class. If there is one small message that can come from in what is now Poland. The biggest message I have, the debate—whether from the Front or Back Benches—it which I hope is a robust message, which should be put is that we hope they will take their responsibilities across by the UN, the US and British politicians to seriously to ensure that better days lie ahead in the politicians in Cyprus is, “For heaven’s sake, you owe it whole of Cyprus. as a responsibility to the people who live in your islands not to constantly hark back to slights and difficulties of Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Winding-up speeches the past, but to try to ensure the world is a better place will begin no later than 20 minutes to 4. There are two and one in which Cypriots, of Turkish or Greek speakers left. 255WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 256WH

3.19 pm That is, I think, what the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate said. He is, like me, a man whose glass is half Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to full rather than half empty. We always look for the serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I look positive, and should do that today. The main difference forward to making a contribution. I congratulate the today is that a gas field, called the Aphrodite gas field, hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) on has been discovered off the southern coast of Cyprus, bringing this matter for consideration. By doing so he some 21 miles west of Israel’s notorious Leviathan gas gives us all an opportunity to make a contribution, field. which I hope the Minister will be able to respond to. This is an important debate. Some of my constituents I had an opportunity to go to Cyprus through the are Cypriots, but many of my constituents have homes armed forces parliamentary scheme. As well as asking in Cyprus, whether in the north or the south. They are about the defensive role, we had the chance to speak to therefore aware of the issue. Cypriots and find out where they see their future. The I pay tribute to two former Members of this House gas field is a key to moving forward for Cyprus, and who are now Members of the other place: Lord Kilclooney that is how the people of Cyprus see it. Unemployment and Lord Maginnis of Drumglass, who as MPs made a was high at the time of our visit, and it still is. There are significant contribution to debates and who retain their problems with banking and the economy, and if the gas interest in the matter. The situation in Cyprus may seem field pulls things around and enables people to envisage bleak, after several attempts at finding peace—most a better future, we should focus on it. Turkey wants to notably the Annan plan of 2004, which produced a no be the transit route for Israeli gas, to provide easy access vote in a referendum. I hope that in the referendum here to international markets, and so it should. the no vote will again be strong. The most recent round A reunified Cyprus would allow the north to reap of talks, aimed at forging a federation between the some benefit from the newfound undersea wealth, and Turkish Cypriot north and the internationally recognised would constitute direct accession to the EU and the Greek Cypriot south, ground to a halt in the middle of eurozone. It would also bode well for reviving Turkey’s 2012. That is a matter of concern to all the Members now all-but-defunct EU ambitions. If the reaching of who are here for the debate, and those who wanted to an agreement between the two communities of Cyprus attend but could not. could bring Turkey and Greece closer together, we Peace talks were launched again this year, but the should see whether we can move it along. The time has situation in the country is difficult to repair, partly now really come for them to bury the hatchet—not in because of the still raw emotions on both sides of the each other, but in the ground—and to let bygones be UN-patrolled green line. That has been described by bygones. hon. Members today. The difficult tensions are no I come from a country that was torn apart by fighting doubt largely due to the fact that some 2,000 of the at about the same period as what took place in Cyprus, country’s 1 million people vanished in the fighting from where there was a realisation—not just personal, but on 1974 onwards. If there is one issue that rankles, it is, as the part of everyone involved in the political process—of the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) made clear, the difficulty and pain. The only way in which Northern the disappeared. As hon. Members will know, there has Ireland could move forward and become the absolutely been a similar situation in Northern Ireland. The fantastic little country that it is today was by doing just disappeared are still a raw issue for many in Northern that—moving forward. Religious beliefs and cultural Ireland, although the numbers involved are clearly much heritage have been mentioned, and I have a strong larger in Cyprus. interest in such things, as hon. Members know. More At the time of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus the movement in that respect is good news. Turkish press was inundated with reports of unspeakable atrocities committed by Greek Cypriots—families being The memories are still fresh and the pain is still real, buried alive and houses burned. There were accounts of but when I think about the situation that Northern summary executions and other atrocities, which made Ireland has come from and where we are today, I realise Turkish blood boil, resulting in Prime Minister Bülent that we had no choice but to co-operate and start Ecevit ordering the Turkish army to intervene. In their afresh. We had to make those difficult but necessary turn, many Greek Cypriots and their sympathisers claim decisions for the next generation and the generations that the Turkish military killed and maimed numerous after that. When we listen to the young people in today’s Greek Cypriots. They accuse Turkish soldiers of war society and hear that their concerns and aspirations are crimes and other unwarranted and unprovoked violence, for peace without threat, a strong economy and job in addition to chasing 200,000 Greek Cypriots from opportunities—the same aspirations as those in mainland their homes in the north of the island. There was a clear Britain, the United States and western Europe—we polarisation of two communities over a number of know we did the right thing. years. I always say that if Northern Ireland had adopted Lord Wood of Anfield referred in the other place to the same attitude of not seeking a way forward, we “a line in the February declaration that reads that, would still be in the situation we were in for 30 years up to 10 to 20 years ago. ‘nothing is agreed until everything is agreed’.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 15 July 2014; Vol. 755, c. 579.] The result of what happened was that the island has effectively been split into two since 1974, with the If we had adopted that attitude in Northern Ireland we northern part necessarily turning to Turkey for aid and would never have made progress, so perhaps it is time to support, in view of its isolation within the international agree on what can be agreed first, and use that as a community. That is a clear issue. The split has remained foundation. From that point there can be movement despite attempts to reconcile north and south over the towards other things. It is not a perfect process—let us years, but 2014 might actually be the year for change. be honest—but it is a way of moving forward. 257WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 258WH

Mr Burrowes: Did not we get to that point in February To focus on the missing, 1,500 people are still in the joint declaration? Despite some people’s cynicism unaccounted for—a subject that I have raised many and concern the joint declaration was made, with an times. They may be missing, but they are not forgotten. agreement on the fundamental principles. There was That is a message that the House has to send out. The forward momentum, but since then noises off have families have a right to know what happened, whether suggested otherwise. their relatives are dead and, if so, where their graves are to be found. If those people are dead, why can the Jim Shannon: Yes, it takes both sides to recognise the location of their remains not be disclosed and their need for initial engagement, and a basis on which to remains returned? What about those who were relocated move forward. I am disappointed that things have not to Turkey? Might they still be alive, or imprisoned? gone beyond that, because polls seem to have suggested Might they be dead and, if so, where are they buried? a way forward. I have expressed concern before about the missing I feel that real change may be brought about through children, such as Christaki Georghiou, the brother of the work of the Committee on Missing Persons in Mrs Hatjoullis, a constituent of mine. He disappeared Cyprus. I mentioned the 2,000 people who went missing, at the age of five in 1974. Recent newspapers reports and we cannot bypass the hurt of the people affected by suggest that he might still be alive and working in that. If people are given some form of closure perhaps Ankara, but the Turkish authorities refuse to answer their emotions can begin to recover, and the past can be letters or to give even a scrap of information. How left to rest in the past. Then I believe people will find it many other children might have been placed with Turkish easier to talk, co-operate and, as has been said, compromise families and still be alive in mainland Turkey? and make the necessary changes—to be totally committed to finding a way forward. When I think how far we have The tragedy of missing persons is a humanitarian come in Northern Ireland despite not having closure for problem with implications for human rights and many family members, and despite the constant rather international humanitarian law. The Cypriot Government ludicrous debate over who the victims really are, I think comply with efforts to identify the missing on both that real change is every bit as likely in Cyprus as it was sides, and it is time that Turkey followed suit. The for us. organisations involved in locating and identifying the The article headed “Turkish poll sees shift on Cyprus” missing should have full access to the archives of all refers to organisations, both civilian and military. The right of “24 per cent saying the Cyprus issue has lasted too long and a family members to know the fate of their missing solution should be reached ‘no matter what the conditions are’.” relatives, including their whereabouts and the circumstances It adds: and causes of their disappearance, is a humanitarian matter. The obligation to carry out an effective investigation “Another 26 per cent argued ‘there is no need to insist for a solution’, the best option is to have two separate states on the into the circumstances is required by international human island. rights law and international humanitarian law. Eighteen per cent support the formation of a new Cypriot state” When focusing on the humanitarian dimension of with another 19% in support of a similar notion. Clearly, missing persons in armed conflicts, it is necessary to almost 87% want progress. bear in mind that the cases of missing persons can There has been some progress in recent months, with sometimes constitute criminal offences, including war. the newly elected Turkish President Erdogan making Perhaps that is why Turkey is dragging its feet. The lack some fairly positive remarks, beneficial to both sides. of an investigation by Turkey into the fate of those who However, his meeting with Greek Prime Minister Samaras went missing has condemned relatives to live in a prolonged did not go entirely to plan, as relations between the two state of acute anxiety. Time has not lessened that anxiety, soured because of their differences on Cyprus. That is and any Member who has seen the relatives of the to be expected, however; finding a peaceful solution missing holding vigil outside this place or, for those of with which to go forward will not be easy, but it is a us who have visited the green line, in Cyprus know the possibility to be pursued with all eagerness. The Pancyprian pain and anxiety that the families still have—it is still Federation of Labour, the Turkish Cypriot Revolutionary vivid to them. The families simply want to know what Workers Trade Union Federation, Turkish Cypriot teachers has happened; they want to be able to grieve and to lay and workers unions and the United Cyprus party have their relatives to rest. called for a Finally, I join my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, “just and mutually accepted solution”. Southgate and the hon. Member for Edmonton in As always when there are two opposite opinions, asking the Foreign Office if it will continue to apply compromises will need to be made if change is to be pressure on Turkey to open up all the sites that are now made possible, and talks should begin as soon as possible. restricted and, on a perhaps easier note for the Minister, to help the missing persons commission to fund the 3.29 pm latest equipment that could be used to find the remains Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I of people. Those are two quite simple asks, and I hope congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, that the Minister will comply. I finish by congratulating Southgate (Mr Burrowes) on securing the debate. I my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate want to focus on the missing people, but first may I again on securing the debate. reiterate to my hon. Friend the Minister that the Foreign Office needs to be as vocal about Cyprus as it has been 3.34 pm about Ukraine? As the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) said, Cyprus is a fully fledged ally and a Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I member of the European Union that we are hanging congratulate the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate out to dry. (Mr Burrowes), in the usual way, on securing the 259WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 260WH

Adjournment debate. It would be wrong of me not to The green line is the UN buffer zone, which stretches acknowledge his gracious and deserved tribute to our from Morphou through Nicosia to Famagusta. It is hon. Friend, the late Member for Heywood and Middleton, patrolled by UN troops and has only a small number of in particular on this issue, but more generally as well. designated crossing points. It now divides the two parts The debate is timely, especially given Britain’s long of Cyprus. There have been a number of serious attempts association with Cyprus and the continuing challenge to secure a lasting resolution to the situation in Cyprus, facing the country’s leaders and people and those of us but to date they have been unsuccessful. who are friends of Cyprus on how to secure a lasting I understand that for the first time, last Friday, the resolution of the division of the island. Many people of new UN special adviser, the Norwegian diplomat Espen Cypriot extraction, Greek and Turkish alike, live in the Barth Eide, met separately with the leaders of the two UK, with many in my own constituency. They, too, sides, President Nicos Anastasiades and the Turkish want to see a lasting solution to the island’s divisions, Cypriot leader Dervis Eroglu. Plans for a further joint but they certainly want to see a fair and just resolution meeting next week are encouraging. It is also encouraging of the many issues that have prevented a successful that, despite some recent comments, both President settlement to date. Erdogan and Prime Minister Samaras were able to meet I want to acknowledge the contribution of my hon. in the margins of the NATO summit on Friday to Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) and that discuss Cyprus. I hope the Minister will set out what of the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green further steps the Government are taking to support the (Mike Freer), who echoed in a different way one particularly effort to build personal and political trust between the powerful point made by my hon. Friend, which was key leaders on Cyprus. In particular, what support is about the important joint work on missing persons—the being given to the new UN special adviser? 1,500 people still missing—and especially the missing Trust between political leaders is clearly a first, essential children, an issue that will have struck many of those step if a deal is to be achieved, but other opinion reading the record of our proceedings. My hon. Friend formers on both sides of the green line need to feel their asked two questions of the Minister, about funding and voices are being listened to. Will the Minister tell us about access to areas where missing persons’ remains what steps the Government have put in place or are might be buried. I hope that the Minister will address encouraging to build dialogue between faith leaders those two key requests. and others in civil society, to help engender better relationships? I understand that there have been some The hon. Members for Cities of London and Westminster encouraging contacts between business leaders in the (Mark Field) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made two parts of Cyprus. Again, it would be good to hear important points about the need for the political leaders what efforts our Government and others are making to with crucial roles in the talks to let the potential of build those relationships further. Cyprus’s future inform the negotiations. Clearly, the past cannot be forgotten and the legacy has to be It would be useful, too, to make sure that at this point addressed, but the potential for Cyprus’s future, to of transition the European Union continues to be heavily which the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate alluded, involved in the effort to get a lasting settlement. Will the should surely provide the ongoing motivation for those Minister discuss not just the role of the current High closely involved in the present negotiations. Representative but the efforts being made to brief the incoming High Representative, to prioritise the need for Cyprus has been divided since 1974, when Turkey her active engagement in resolving the situation? invaded the north. A military coup on the island backed by the Government in Athens was the supposed pretext Other Members have already alluded to the encouraging for the invasion, which saw the island partitioned. Roughly, visit of the US vice-president to Cyprus recently. Again, the northern third was inhabited by Turkish Cypriots it will be useful to hear what further discussions the and south by Greek Cypriots. There are many estimates Foreign Office has had with the US to encourage it to about the scale of the upheaval that followed. The maintain its interest and engagement in finding a solution. United Nations suggested at the time that some 165,000 Previous efforts to achieve a long-term solution to Greek Cypriots had had to flee or were expelled from Cyprus’s political future have been conducted against a the north, with some 45,000 Turkish Cypriots going very different economic outlook. Cyprus is currently from the south. emerging from a difficult time economically—its banks Such figures are heavily contested. Whether one accepts have had to be bailed out—and in the north, too, the them or thinks that they are higher, they nevertheless economic situation is a long way from ideal. Other hide many individual tragedies arising from the events Members have already alluded to the potential long-term in 1974. Furthermore, communities that had lived together prospects for the Cypriot economy, partly from the for hundreds of years were torn apart. A considerable discovery of oil and gas. I understand that the UN has number of people are still missing, which I alluded to estimated that a long-term settlement could deliver a earlier; homes invested with incomes and considerable 3% boost to economic growth on the whole of the emotion had to be deserted, almost at a moment’s island—a far from insignificant potential peace dividend. notice; and many cultural and religious sites, including There are, inevitably, regional powers with a crucial many churches, are unused and inevitably in poor condition role to play. Greece and Turkey are the two most as a result. My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton obvious, but Israel, too, has a role. Will the Minister mentioned parts of Nicosia that have been left almost update hon. Members on the discussions he or others untouched since then. The still deserted Varosha part of have had with those three regional powers? Famagusta stands as the perhaps most permanent challenge It is to the credit of both President Anastasiades and to the status quo on the island. Its future will be one of Premier Eroglu that they have been willing to embark the many issues that needs to be addressed. I will come on renewed negotiations. We should continue to be back to that point. positive about the signing of the joint declaration after 261WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 262WH

[Mr Gareth Thomas] My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate has had a long and active interest in promoting the case such lengthy discussions in February and welcome the for a solution, and I thank him for his efforts. I also pay dialogue between both men personally and between the tribute to the British Cypriots of all backgrounds who negotiators. have done so much to promote ties between the UK and Previous negotiations have moved the process forward, Cyprus. This debate comes as we reflect on the difficult but serious and significant challenges remain, not least events of 40 years ago. Although it is important to on security, property, compensation and the distribution understand the past, as hon. Members have said, it is of powers in a new Government. The challenge the vital that we look ahead to the new hope for the negotiators have to think through is how to build confidence reunification of Cyprus. A settlement would help Cypriots among the peoples of Cyprus, while those difficult take full advantage of the economic, political and security issues are being explored. I encourage the Minister to opportunities of their region, not least the mineral welcome the potential involvement of European opportunities mentioned by the Opposition spokesman. parliamentarians and the High Representative and to I can assure hon. Members that this Government will think through what else can be done to build trust and continue actively to support the efforts under way to confidence in the negotiations, among people on the reach a lasting solution. Indeed, our diplomatic activity island and in ex-patriot communities. Other commentators continues apace. My right hon. Friend the Minister for have suggested that negotiators from other, successfully Europe invited both chief negotiators to London in resolved conflicts might offer a helpful perspective to June. Last Friday, at the NATO summit, my right hon. those currently negotiating the future in Cyprus; it Friend the Foreign Secretary raised the issue of Cyprus would be good to hear the Minister’s view on that. with the Turkish Foreign Minister. Comments on both sides about the negotiations—both The UK’s efforts are in full support of the UN’s on specific elements and, more generally, on the way leading role in facilitating the talks. Like others, I warmly they have been conducted—have had a slightly less welcome the appointment as UN special adviser of positive tone of late. I am sure we all recognise that all Espen Barth Eide, who will bring a wealth of skill and difficult negotiations have their bumpy moments, but it experience to that important position. As my right hon. is important for those of us who want a long-term Friend the Minister for Europe said when they spoke on settlement to continue to encourage the key players and 28 August, we hope that Mr Eide will soon help the support deeper and wider engagement in the process, to parties to accelerate progress on the substantive negotiations. help continue to achieve progress even when there are difficult moments. I look forward to hearing from the The prospects for a lasting solution are promising, Minister about how that wider engagement is being even if progress is less apparent or rapid than either built and, in particular, about how the Foreign Office is community would like. The two communities and, just supporting the key players in Cyprus in continuing to as importantly, Turkey are showing the right ambition move the process forward. to reach a settlement. The UK and Greece—the two other guarantor powers—are also fully supportive of 3.46 pm the UN’s efforts to encourage the parties to work further The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign forward. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): It is a I should now like to turn to some of the specific pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. points that have been raised, and I hope that hon. I begin as others did by saying how grateful I am to my Members will allow me to focus on those raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate. If I am (Mr Burrowes) for initiating this timely debate on the unable to do so in the limited time available, I or my future of negotiations to solve the Cyprus problem. I right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe will do our am also grateful for the valuable contributions from best to reply in writing. hon. Members. I recognise that at a different time more of our Hon. Members will note that I am here, rather than colleagues might be here. This is an interesting week in my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe. He sends politics and some hon. Members are in different parts his apologies, but he is in Hungary at the moment. of the country. I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Although this is not my portfolio, Cyprus is a country Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) is not here and that he that I am familiar with, having served there as an officer is undergoing surgery. We wish him well. in the 1990s with the 1st Battalion the Royal Green Jackets. It is an incredible island, and it was a pleasure I pay tribute, as my hon. Friend the Member for and honour to serve there and travel the island extensively. Enfield, Southgate has done, to the late hon. Member I would probably have taken more notes had I known for Heywood and Middleton, Jim Dobbin. This is the that one day I might be speaking on the subject. I was first opportunity I have had to do so. He was certainly a based in Larnaca and am familiar with Akrotiri, Episkopi, man of great principle and integrity, and he will be Paphos—the birthplace of Aphrodite—Famagusta and missed on both sides of the House. the amazing monastery in Bellapais. Restrictions on Reference was made to the Committee on Missing travel were severe then, and it was difficult to move Persons. The UK fully supports its work whereby communal backwards and forwards. It is good to see that there teams undertake painstaking and sensitive work. So far, have been some advances since the days when I served more than 571 individuals have been identified and there and that the key industries that Britain is involved returned to their families. We recognise the anguish in—tourism and banking, which has been mentioned—are suffered by families of the missing people from both in a good position, as are our strategic role, through communities, and we encourage parties to help the which we play an important part, as I shall mention CMP to accelerate its work, which becomes more later, and our links with the diasporas in the UK. challenging as the years pass. Since 2006, we have 263WH Cyprus9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Cyprus 264WH donated more than $220,000, and bilateral EU funding, the settlement. We welcome the work being done under which comes partly from UK contributions, totalled the EU financial aid regulation aimed at bringing Turkish $15.3 million from 2006 to 2013. We stand ready to Cypriots closer to EU standards. However, the UN consider further requests for funding from the committee rightly remains the lead in chairing talks and facilitating if they are forthcoming. the process. The EU has said that all parties will have to agree to an upgraded role. We recognise that Cyprus is a Jim Shannon: In Northern Ireland and in the Republic, member of the EU, but the talks take place between two we have had specific attempts to try to find people who communities with equal status. The UN has led have disappeared. Has the Minister considered giving international efforts since 1964 and both sides will have help with equipment because advanced equipment is to agree to any change in modalities. available to find bodies that have been buried for many My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate years and perhaps that could provide an advantage? and others referred to Famagusta, which I visited not too long ago. Sadly, it is not the place it used to be, but Mr Ellwood: I am grateful for that intervention, and I we fully support UN resolutions 550 and 789, and have am aware of initiatives in Northern Ireland, having also also raised the issue with Turkey. We understand that served there. I am not aware of any such equipment, but this is important for many Cypriots, which is why so I will ask my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe many efforts have been made over decades for a package to write to the hon. Gentleman. It is an interesting deal, unfortunately without success. Varosha, as part of thought. Famagusta is known, is best addressed as part of a The UK will continue to urge all those in control of comprehensive settlement, given the myriad complexities, such areas, including the Turkish military, to co-operate and we welcome the work of civil society, such as the fully with the committee and allow it to accelerate its bi-communal Famagusta initiative, in preparing the vital work. way. Sovereign base areas are pivotal to Britain’s strategic Hon. Members also referred to religious freedom. interest in the region, as has been said many times on My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate the Floor of the House, and that applies not just noted that some of the challenges faced by religious recently in relation to the humanitarian aid drops that groups in Cyprus were caused in no small part by the are taking place in Iraq at the moment. Cyprus is an political situation. We recognise the constraints, which important staging post and location for our military: my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe discussed the Army, Air Force and Royal Navy. The hon. Member with the Cypriot archbishop in May, and we also discussed for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) mentioned Operation such matters with the Turkish Cypriot community. More Tosca, which, sadly, is one of the longest running UN can be done, but we are pleased that progress has been operations and polices the green zone. It is hoped that it made in recent years on religious services in both churches can be wrapped up in the near future if the final and mosques, on mutual understanding and on cultural agreement can be made. I am pleased that Britain has heritage. been a long-term contributor to that operation. Flights were mentioned. The UK Court of Appeal My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate has confirmed that direct flights from the UK to the also mentioned Turkey’s role in the current negotiations. northern part of Cyprus would breach obligations under It remains an important part of reaching a solution and international law. The court found that it is for the I welcome Ankara’s strong support for a settlement. We Republic of Cyprus to determine which airports are regularly discuss Cyprus with our Turkish counterparts, open for international traffic and as a result no airlines including at ministerial level, and we encourage Turkey are licensed to operate flights from the UK direct to to maintain its constructive engagement to make this north Cyprus. round of talks successful. One example is the visits of In conclusion, this debate has underlined the warmth the two negotiators to Athens and Ankara, and it of the ties between the UK and Cyprus and shown how would be useful to repeat them in the near future. it is in the UK’s national interest to help the Cypriots to reach a lasting settlement. No one should underestimate Turkey remains committed to supporting international the scale of the challenges ahead, but the Government efforts to solve the Cyprus problem. We do not believe firmly believe that a solution that meets the fundamental that its support has been affected by the recent elections. concerns of both communities is possible and that there We are aware of the remarks by President Erdogan on 1 has been no better time to achieve it. The parties have September. The UK continues to support the UN-chaired stated their willingness to reach a deal and we urge both negotiations to reach a just, lasting and comprehensive sides to seize this opportunity. Cypriots of both settlement on the basis of the relevant Security Council communities want to live and prosper together in peace. resolutions. As they strive for a lasting solution, we will continue On EU involvement, to which my hon. Friend the our active support in Cyprus, Ankara, Athens, New Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark York, Brussels and beyond. I am grateful to my hon. Field) referred, the EU has an important technical role Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate for securing to play—he is familiar with it—in providing advice on this debate and giving us the opportunity to discuss the EU acquis and technical assistance to help to implement these important issues. 265WH 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas) 266WH

Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas) extend superfast broadband. Access to that has now been extended to some 78% of the UK—88% in London— 3.59 pm and it is hoped that that will be extended to some 95% in total by 2017. The Mayor of London has also made it Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): a clear aspiration for every resident and business in I am grateful for the opportunity formally to put on the London to be able to have access to an affordable record the frustrations of my constituents and many high-speed internet connection. businesses about the roll-out of superfast broadband in According to the Government’s own body, Broadband my central London constituency. I know that the hon. Delivery UK, if faster broadband is rolled out, it would Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), be expected to boost the economy by £17 billion annually whose constituency neighbours mine, has similar concerns. by 2024. As a consequence, there would be a huge It may come as a surprise to many that here in central economic opportunity cost to not comprehensively rolling London there is a problem with superfast broadband. out high-speed broadband in central London. The square The perception is that this is an issue only for the rural mile alone hosts some 13,500 small and medium-sized parts of the United Kingdom, but there are some enterprises. It is often thought that it is only the very big fundamental issues that I want to address, and I know international corporate businesses that are based in the that the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch City, but that is not the case, and has never really been. will want to make a brief, broadly supportive contribution, There are many small businesses employing literally a although she does not know exactly what I will be handful of people that are still based in the City of saying. London and which require this most up-to-date global The speeds in the centre of London are, in fact, broadband access. among the slowest in the capital as a whole—some My concern is that there is a failure in how the 11.9 megabits per second on average for the City of market currently operates. In urban environments, the London as compared with some 20.9 Mbps for the approach of network providers seems to be based on a capital as a whole. Ofcom defines superfast broadband belief that there is insufficient demand to invest further. as 30 Mbps and has recognised that the gaps in the That means that large swathes of urban areas with superfast broadband coverage in Westminster and the important SME users are poorly served and restricted City are particularly pronounced. to outmoded copper broadband, which I referred to For clarity, there are three common types of connection. earlier. The slowest, and the sort that many colleagues may well UK telecommunications regulation has successfully have at home, is copper broadband, which uses a phone created healthy supply-side competition in connectivity line. The fastest is the sort used by larger companies, for London’s larger corporations, which are prepared to which have a private or a leased line connection, but pay many thousands of pounds a month for high bandwidth those are expensive and affordable only to relatively few connections—indeed, many of those are businesses that larger businesses. To put that into figures, copper broadband absolutely need the most state-of-the-art global bandwidth costs at least £10 a month, whereas a leased line will connection. That competition has created a rich network cost many hundreds of pounds a month to install and of wholesale fibre-optic cables across the capital, but run. The other connection option is, of course, superfast there is a gap between that wholesale fibre-optic network broadband, which operates between the copper and and the retail network that serves small businesses and leased lines in terms of both price and performance, but residential properties. The policy must now begin to is largely affordable for domestic users and small and focus on how that rich wholesale fibre core can be medium-sized enterprises. extended to London’s small business community and to I recognise that the Government have already directly the residential community here in the centre of London. supported the supply of superfast broadband to over 1 million homes and businesses where it would otherwise Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ not have been commercially viable. Many of those Co-op): I concur with nearly everything that the hon. residents and businesses are, unsurprisingly, located in Gentleman has said; he has summarised the challenges rural areas and the current roll-out is expected to provide that are also present in my constituency. Does he not a £1.5 billion boost to local economies. It is also estimated agree that some of the key challenges are the length of that the superfast broadband programme will deliver time it takes to get connected, unreliability of speeds returns of up to £20 for each £1 invested, which would, and the misleading maximum speeds that are often if that came to pass, represent tremendous value for advertised, which is just not delivering for SMEs and money. many residents? My constituency—the one we are sitting in today— includes the political, business, cultural and ceremonial Mark Field: That concern has certainly been put to heart of the UK, yet a large number of residents and me by many of my constituents as well. In today’s SMEs from right across this patch still do not have the debate, I am trying to focus on what the Government option to connect to superfast broadband. That is might do, given their ambitious programme, which, as I somewhat surprising, given the level of investment that said, has made some real headway in relatively depopulated, the Government have ploughed into improving the rural parts of the UK, but which has left behind, UK’s digital infrastructure. Needless to say, that is an ironically, the sorts of areas that the hon. Lady and I integral part of the Government’s long-term economic represent. plan. Just last month, the Secretary of State for Culture, Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): In Media and Sport proudly announced that central and my constituency, we have an area called a “notspot”, in local government are investing some £1.7 billion to that it is a group of houses at the end of the copper line, 267WH Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas)9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas) 268WH and the speed degrades the further away people get economic growth in the sector has not increased relative from the exchange. In terms of asking what the Government to other sectors in the past decade. That is likely to can do, does my hon. Friend agree that we need a relate to the fact that broadband speeds are lower in proper investigation into what the cause is? He is being London than in some of our European rivals and told that there is a lack of demand, but when I met BT, I connection is generally of a lower standard than that was told that BT cannot find the location to put the available to a number of our Asian competitors. boxes on the pavement, so we are being misled. Does he agree that the Government need to get a grip on why Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I am trying not suppliers cannot supply in London? to approach this debate with the green eyes of a Wiltshire MP. I think that the hon. Gentleman is right to say that Mark Field: I very much agree with that. I confess our international competitiveness is a critical consideration. that when I was doing the research, I assumed that the Does he have any insight, through his research, into word “notspot”was a typographical error. I then recognised other approaches that have been taken with more success exactly what was being suggested, which my hon. Friend to achieve really substantive, robust internet connectivity has rightly pointed out. for other urban centres and which it would be worth the Yes, there is a particular problem for London. Listen, Government looking at afresh? London is a wonderful capital to live in, but it is an absurdity that, literally, within a few hundred yards or Mark Field: I should like to come on to that, if I may, even less of first-rate digital broadband, individuals in what I say in a moment or two. should find they have difficulties. Of course, we all take for granted that we will have instant access to the Clearly, there is much that we can learn. Let us be internet—I recall going on a holiday only 10 years ago honest: one of the difficulties that we face is this. It has to a distant part of Africa and the frustration one felt always been the way in the United Kingdom that when about the situation. Of course, we recognise that back a huge amount of money has been paid to put an in the 1980s and 1990s, these things did take a hell of a infrastructure in place, it is difficult to dismantle it long time to get up and running, and all of us as entirely. Pudong district in Shanghai, which was literally consumers now have expectations that are very different paddy fields only 20 years ago, is now a city of 7 million from those of the past. Those expectations will only or 8 million people who live and work there. Clearly, it become greater as time goes by. can have state-of-the-art infrastructure in place, because It strikes me that only the sort of thinking to which it had a more recent starting point. hon. Members have referred will enable London to continue to compete effectively on the global stage and Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): My hon. Friend meet the future bandwidth demands of all its citizens. is generous in giving way and is making very powerful My seat suffers particularly from the technology divide points. Does he agree with me on these two things? and it is frustrating to receive regular reports from First, although it is great to see BT’s progress in rolling constituents that they are caught between the cheaper, out broadband, that has been mostly focused on rural slower, copper broadband and the unaffordable leased areas. Secondly, the blind spots in the urban network lines. Many SMEs, in keeping with current business that he is referring to can be very frustrating for business practice and as a way of making economies in what growth, and not just in London. The Waterwells business remains a difficult economic environment, use cloud-based park in Gloucester is a very good example of where services. Those services need, as an absolute essential, growth is frustrated by not having decent broadband. faster and reliable connections and the failure to provide sufficient connectivity is a fundamental issue undermining Mark Field: My hon. Friend’s area does not only our global competitiveness. have green fields; I expect that there are also green Even the much politically celebrated success that is boots in that bit of Gloucestershire. However, as he will Tech City—based, sadly, just outside my constituency, rightly point out, many of his voters and constituents around the Old street roundabout—is having difficulties live in a relatively urban part of Gloucester, which I do getting the broadband speeds it needs to continue to appreciate. There are some fundamental problems, and thrive and grow. I know that those concerns are shared I am glad that we have had an opportunity to ensure by the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch, that this is not seen just as a central London issue. It who has the good fortune to have Tech City in her might have come as news to my hon. Friend and to the patch. I know that in the past, she has called for a hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) that comprehensive review of superfast broadband provision. we have a specific problem here in central London. Closer to home here in Westminster, the West End Many firms in London require superfast broadband partnership, which brings together public and private as much as they require electricity or water. More than sector stakeholders in central London, has identified 98% of the UK’s visual effects firms are in the Soho the poor broadband service as the single biggest threat area of London, bordering Covent Garden, which is to London’s international competitiveness. It puts at cited as being in a broadband notspot—the term mentioned risk the continued attraction of investors and the continued by my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders growth of the digital, media, tech and creative sector, Green (Mike Freer). Not all firms, especially start-ups, which has provided some quarter of a million jobs in are able to link into the private Sohonet, which notionally central London alone. serves that part of W1. Instead, they rely on BT and the London has the biggest concentration of digital other telecommunications companies, which do not yet businesses in Europe, with some 23,000 firms and over offer such a comprehensive service. 390,000 employees, according to a Greater London However, there is good news, and I want to give credit authority study of two years ago; I suspect that those where it is due. Recent developments suggest that a figures may underestimate the reality today. However, number of the private sector providers are now taking a 269WH Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas)9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas) 270WH

[Mark Field] and local authorities to minimise the cost of providing this vital infrastructure. For example, we might reduce more positive approach. BT, for example, committed the cost of permit schemes for broadband upgrade only last week to working with the City of London to works by limiting charges to A and B category roads, investigate how new forms of technology can benefit and consider allowing for installation via narrow and local SMEs. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for micro-trenching for broadband deployment only. Hackney South and Shoreditch. We have worked together I understand that there are ongoing discussions with to try to ensure that BT works on this, and that is an the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the example of where some cross-party co-operation can Department for Transport on updating the “Reinstatement work well. Clearly, these issues affect parts beyond a of Openings in Highways” code of practice to allow single constituency. That is in addition to BT’s promise such a move. Narrow trenching would cut the costs of of an extra £50 million of investment specifically aimed trench deployment by about one third, and micro-trenching at expanding coverage further in urban areas. I hope would reduce it by a further third, so that would be two that some of that investment will make its way into my thirds in total. patch. Progress, of course, can be made through innovative It is important that we take a dynamic and innovative schemes at local level. I should like to highlight the approach to dealing with the coverage problem, as creation by Westminster city council and its arm’s-length laying cable underground may, in the not-too-distant management organisation, CityWest Homes, of a new future, become an entirely outdated process. That will partnership with the private sector called Community be especially true as mobile superfast broadband coverage Fibre. The aim of the project is to install a fibre-optic becomes increasingly available, now that speeds of up telecommunications network in the council’s social housing to 50 megabits per second are physically possible. That and associated commercial property stock. That service has the advantage that there is no need for a landline started as a pilot of only 1,000 or so properties, but has and there is the ability to supply a connection flexibly now been extended to cover 22,000 properties in and and quickly. Local authorities must be encouraged to around the Pimlico district of my constituency. co-ordinate with superfast mobile broadband providers, as providing that service is likely to have implications on Until the spring of 2015, businesses have the option public works, street furniture and new developments. of applying for vouchers worth up to £3,000 towards Ofcom can also keep a close watch on this market as it the installation of superfast broadband from a range of develops, to ensure that any technological progress provides providers, through the Government’s SuperConnected as much benefit as possible to the end consumer. Cities programme. However, I understand that, to date, the take-up has been pretty low. I am informed that the It is widely assumed that the demand for bandwidth Greater London authority has issued only 812 vouchers will continue to grow tenfold every five or six years. The across London as a whole. The total funding pot for legacy fibre and copper network will still be able to vouchers in London was set at £23.8 million. deliver superfast broadband to some customers, but If we assumed that all the vouchers were allocated for competitive global city economies will in truth require a the maximum amount of £3,000—some, of course, full fibre-optic network after 2015 in order properly to would have been for a smaller sum—the total funding compete. I should be keen to see the Government would account for barely 10% of London’s total allocation. encourage greater activity by broadband providers, in There is therefore a compelling case for the Government’s co-operation with local authorities, to press quickly extending the scheme well beyond the spring of 2015, as ahead with the creation of affordable broadband. well as for making the application process more straightforward. Meg Hillier: I agree with everything that the hon. There is clearly a place for Government investment in Gentleman has said about the need to ensure that this broadband infrastructure where there is a market failure issue is a high priority. I could not have put it better in supply, but, as responsible policy makers, we should myself, so I thank him. limit the exposure of the taxpayer by first establishing the extent to which the market can address unmet Mark Field: Lovely! I shall just finish my own points demand. Physically rolling out high-speed broadband by saying this. I say to the coalition Government that networks in urban areas provides a number of challenges we need fully to harness the digital capabilities in the for broadband providers. Some 85% of the cost associated heart of the UK’s cities—I accept that this applies to with building broadband infrastructure is accounted other urban areas as well—because that is truly where for by civil engineering. On average, it costs £43 per that is most needed. metre to dig a traditional trench in a footpath. Of course, digging a trench is particularly expensive in London, for a number of reasons. The large number 4.18 pm of heritage and protected status sites leads, of course, to significant bureaucracy and up-front delays. Other reasons The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy are the cost of permits, parking charges and the nature (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is an honour to serve under your of surface materials, such as York stone, which makes chairmanship, Mr Streeter, in this unusual and temporary that sort of excavation extremely expensive. The dig rate setting for Westminster Hall debates. I thank my hon. in London is approximately 25% of the rate of digging Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster seen outside London, as a result of congestion measures (Mark Field) for his excellent speech, which encapsulated such as early finishes and close-down requirements. all the concerns. I am also grateful for the contributions To aid the private sector in rolling out superfast from the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch broadband in London at minimal cost, I should like to (Meg Hillier) and my hon. Friends the Members for encourage Ministers to work with the Mayor of London Chippenham (Duncan Hames), for Gloucester (Richard 271WH Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas)9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas) 272WH

Graham) and for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike the UK is now a world leader in international rankings. Freer). It is nice to have contributions from so far afield We are the best connected of the top five European outside London. economies. In answer to the hon. Member for Chippenham, The main focus of the debate is broadband in London, I do not believe that he will find a better scheme than but I know that the issue of broadband is of huge our rural broadband scheme when it comes to Government concern to hon. Members all over the country. I am support for broadband roll-out. pleased that a similar level of consensus has been established in this debate as has been established in relation to all Meg Hillier: One of the real concerns of small businesses our efforts to keep Scotland in the Union. May both in Shoreditch is that upload speeds are simply not elements of consensus achieve similar levels of success. suitable for businesses that deal with a lot of digital My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London data. Will the Minister address that if he has a moment? and Westminster, who secured the debate, talked about how his expectations had changed over the past 10 years Mr Vaizey: As my hon. Friend the Member for Cities since he went to Africa, and I think he hit the nail on the of London and Westminster said, it is important to head. Even during the past two or three years since we distinguish between business and residential broadband. started the programme, the legitimate expectations of Businesses that want certain speeds must recognise that businesses and residents for superfast broadband speeds they have to get a service that is more expensive than have grown exponentially, not least because of the residential broadband. That does not mean, however, entertainment applications that residents are now used that we should not focus on ensuring that commercial to using, such as BBC iPlayer, and because of businesses’ providers provide good broadband speeds for residential use of technologies such as the cloud. use as well as for commercial use. It is important that we recognise some of the successes To pick up on what my hon. Friend said in his speech, of the broadband programme that we have undertaken, it is important to look at deregulation. He outlined the as well as the commercial roll-out of broadband. Since I huge cost of laying fibre in a city environment. That is last discussed the subject in the House, we have, under why we have introduced legislation to permit the installation the rural broadband programme, passed more than of broadband street cabinets and new overhead lines 1 million homes, and we are now passing 40,000 homes without the need for prior approval from planning a week across the country. By spring 2015, we will have authorities. That measure will last for five years. We passed at least 2 million premises. have also introduced changes to streamline the planning Of course, broadband is equally important in urban process to support the deployment of mobile infrastructure areas, and it is right to raise that issue; people sometimes and encourage the 4G take-up that I mentioned earlier. think that urban broadband will simply take care of In some urban areas, commercial investment in residential itself. In some respects, it has done so with commercial broadband has not happened for reasons to do with the roll-out. We should recognise that BT’s commercial original network, the anomalies in coverage and the broadband roll-out scheme, which had no Government potential expense of resolving those problems. Nevertheless, subsidy, reached some two thirds of premises in the we have 88% superfast coverage in London, and London country and was completed two years ahead of schedule. stands against any of the major cities in the world in I was pleased that, as a result of discussions with the terms of broadband availability. There are clearly vast Government when we were putting together the extension amounts of fibre in the City of London, but that has of our rural broadband programme, BT committed been designed for commercial use. As my hon. Friend another £50 million, as my hon. Friend mentioned, to said, the challenge is to extend more coverage to the reach another 400,000 urban premises. residential sites. I was pleased at the beginning of last month that We are initiating dialogue. The chief executive of Virgin Media announced plans to extend its network in BDUK, Chris Townsend, will talk to the Mayor’s east London to a further 100,000 premises, which will connectivity summit later this month, and all suppliers make a significant difference. I am pleased to see Virgin have been invited to discuss this important matter. We Media investing not only in faster speeds for its existing must support commercial deployment wherever possible. customers but in extending its footprint. UK Broadband We can subsidise the supply side only where the case for has launched its own superfast wireless service across public intervention is absolutely clear, to avoid chilling much of central London, including the Cities of London the appetite for commercial investment. We must satisfy and Westminster. In my press cuttings today, I came state aid provisions. We have engaged with the European across a company called Optimity from Tech City, Commission on those matters, and we have agreed with which also plans to offer a wi-fi superfast service. We the Commission that our focus must now be on stimulating have seen the announcement that CityFibre Holdings the market to invest in and supply services to close gaps will be working with TalkTalk and Sky to bring fibre in urban broadband supply. broadband to many of our key cities across the country, My hon. Friend mentioned the SuperConnected Cities as will companies such as Hyperoptic. programme, which is at the heart of our approach, In the debate about broadband, we must not forget particularly the broadband connection vouchers of up the importance of 4G. Thanks to the successful auction to £3,000 each. The sheer richness of the market is that we carried out, we now have the fastest roll-out and demonstrated by the fact that 530 suppliers are registered take-up of 4G mobile speeds anywhere in the world. In for the scheme and another 100 have applied to take superfast broadband terms, in London the average part. We have also issued almost 2,500 vouchers. There download speed, as I understand it, is 60 megabits a has been a learning curve, and we have streamlined the second and the average upload speed is 59 megabits a system, making the application process much simpler. second. I understand how important it is for my hon. We have also removed the requirement to look for Friends to make their case, but we must recognise that competing quotes. 273WH Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas) 9 SEPTEMBER 2014 274WH

[Mr Vaizey] Money Transfer Organisations Under the same scheme, we are rolling out wi-fi in public buildings across the country. For example, 12 major 4.30 pm museums and galleries in London, covering 30 million Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): It is a visitors, will have wi-fi. For your interest, Mr Streeter, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. should you wish to visit, there is now wi-fi in the National Gallery—where they will now allow you to I am extremely grateful and delighted that we have a take photographs, and even selfies—the Natural History chance to debate the important issue of international museum and the Imperial War museum. Wi-fi will soon finance and money transfer organisations. The new come to the Tate, the National Portrait Gallery and the Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for British Museum. Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), was extremely supportive in responding to and working with officials and many I turn to the concerns in Tech City, which the hon. Opposition Members to try to get a lasting solution to Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch mentioned the challenge faced by money transfer businesses, which in her intervention. The voucher scheme has benefited need banking facilities to ensure that remittances can be firms in the Shoreditch cluster and, as my hon. Friend sent to developing countries, particularly to support the Member for Cities of London and Westminster family members and economic and humanitarian mentioned, the scheme already supports more than development. I hope that the Minister will update us on 600 businesses across London. I have asked BT to sit the progress that her Department and other Departments down with the chief executive of Tech City UK, Gerard have made on trying to come up with a workable and Grech, to look at the problems. I have to say frankly effective solution that will ensure that the sector gets the that at the moment some of the evidence is simply support it needs and that there is greater transparency anecdotal. We need a much clearer picture from Tech on the actions of banks and on how they enable remittance City and the hon. Lady’s constituents about where the to flow safely. gaps lie. The important thing is to bring people to the table, to analyse where the problem is and to encourage In June 2013, Barclays bank announced its decision commercial providers to meet demand. Clearly, they to close accounts held by community-based money will invest where they believe there is demand and where transfer businesses. A number of the affected businesses they know there is a genuine need for the service. were in my constituency, which is how I got involved To pull back to the bigger picture, the overall broadband with the campaign to build support in Parliament and scheme is very much on track. We remain committed to across the country. I am grateful to some 50 hon. achieving superfast broadband coverage for 95% of UK Members on both sides of the House who joined the premises by 2017. We remain committed to universal campaign, who spoke in community meetings with access to standard broadband of 2 megabits per second. Ministers and who supported me and others in setting up the “Save Remittance Giving” campaign, which has I will pick up on a few other points. In terms of commanded the support of some 122,000 people who advertised speeds, which the hon. Member for Hackney signed the petition to highlight the concern about the South and Shoreditch mentioned, Ofcom and the ending of banking facilities for the many UK money Advertising Standards Authority have worked to ensure transfer businesses that were trying to get help and that when broadband providers sell a service, they make support to people in developing countries. We were it clear what the average speed, rather than the highest fortunate in having the support of not only parliamentarians speed, is likely to be. I absolutely understand the hon. but people from community groups—particularly in the Lady’s frustration about the length of time that it takes British Somali community but also in the British Asian to get a connection. Commercial providers must improve community and many other diaspora groups and ethnic their customer service to ensure that people can get a minority communities—and, more broadly, from the connection as quickly as possible. media and non-governmental organisations such as Oxfam My door is always open, and I frequently have meetings and, of course, the Overseas Development Institute, with colleagues. Wherever a “notspot” causes frustration both of which lent their expertise and are examples of in the constituency of a colleague, such as my hon. how important remittance is in complementing development Friend the Member for Gloucester, I remain ready and aid efforts. willing to meet them. I urge colleagues to engage with The flow of remittance from the UK to people in BT, because the company will come to the table, although developing countries accounts for more than £15 billion it will not always provide the solution that a colleague each year, and the vast majority of those transactions wants. It is important to keep raising such issues and are made by people to poorer family members and to not to think that we will simply push the matter under remote places across the world in the form of food, the carpet. medical aid and assistance. The transactions can help to build schools, hospitals and roads. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have visited countries, working with their constituents, to see some of those projects happen because the British ethnic minority and diaspora communities have contributed directly to develop their countries. That is particularly the case in countries that have come out of conflict and are trying to rebuild. Somaliland, which is the beacon of a region that is trying to rebuild after a conflict that affected the region’s fate for so long, is one such example. Many of my constituents who are originally from Somaliland have 275WH Money Transfer Organisations9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Money Transfer Organisations 276WH worked tirelessly to raise money and find appropriate beyond, so we must ensure that there is a way for them ways to get remittance into Somaliland and beyond, to do so. We must also ensure that non-governmental particularly during the east African famine crisis, to organisations can get assistance in countries where support people and help rebuild their country. remittance facilities are not available. For example, Mo The stakes are incredibly high, not only for development Farah, double Olympic winner, joined our campaign and developing countries but for us. If we do not have because his country is affected but also because the Mo legitimate ways to ensure that ordinary people can get Farah Foundation is in exactly that position. Aid agencies support to their family members and the societies that have a vested interest in ensuring that facilities that they have come from, so making their contribution to work are set up. rebuilding those countries, we will miss out on an I hope that the Minister will use this opportunity to important opportunity to ensure that remittance can answer our questions. First, although the pilot is welcome, play a significant role not only in the past but in the there is an urgency to the situation of money transfer future. businesses that have been operating successfully but Governments across the world have faced pressure to that now face the prospect of banking facilities being reduce their aid budgets, and our Government have made unavailable to them. That has already happened faced that pressure from certain sections of the media. I to some of them. There is a gap before a new facility is am glad that the aid budget has not been reduced, and introduced, and they are unable to access banking I hope that on Friday the International Development facilities in the meantime, so their businesses could go (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill, which bust. Therefore, no such businesses could be left operating would legislate for a development aid target of 0.7%, in some countries. Essentially, we face the possibility takes a step closer to being enshrined in law. Successive that a facility that can have a powerful and positive Governments across the world have faced pressure on effect will be made available too late. Will the Minister their development assistance budgets, and we all know update us on whether she has had any success in her that, combined across the world, remittance eclipses the Department working with the Foreign and Commonwealth world’s combined budget for overseas development Office to ensure that the banks that have withdrawn or assistance. This is not about small amounts of money threatened to withdraw provide a further period of going to individuals, although that is important; it is reprieve until the pilot is tested and can be rolled out about the collective effort that citizens make to support and until the final programme is in good shape and family members and fellow citizens across the world, lessons have been learned? particularly in the poorest countries. I am grateful that the World Bank has been drawn Last year, following the campaign, following the efforts into the discussion and is a member of the group. It has of communities across the country and following the an important role to play in co-ordinating efforts and media attention, we encouraged Ministers in the Treasury getting the US Treasury involved. What role has the and in the Department for International Development, World Bank and the Minister’s Department played in working closely with officials, to find a long-term solution discussions with the US regulators and US Treasury? to the problem, so that money transfer businesses can Decisions made in the US on banking regulation have be given the bank facilities that they need. Without had a knock-on effect on our banks and their choice to access to clearing banks, it is virtually impossible to give withdraw banking facilities. It is critical to ensure that assistance, particularly to countries without a proper the UK and US Governments work together. Both banking system. countries, as well as other western countries, can benefit I am grateful to the Minister for continuing the effort from a lasting solution, from the humanitarian, economic to try to establish a process through the action group on and security perspectives. cross-border remittances. As the framework set out, the Our final questions are about the advice and guidance process needs to be robust, effective and safe. Will she published by the Minister as soon as she took up her provide an update on that process? I thank her for new ministerial position. It may be too soon to say, but keeping us updated. My understanding is that the safer how confident does she feel that the banking sector will corridor pilot will be implemented in September and see the guidance as addressing its concerns and that its that, subject to the effectiveness of that pilot, further confidence will be improved and increased, so that it action may be taken to roll out the facility to other can start to provide banking facilities to remittance countries in which the problem has arisen. businesses? Is an impact assessment process built in to We need to act quickly because if citizens are left to see whether the guidance is having the desired effect of their own devices to get help to their families in places building confidence in the banking sector? I know from such as Somaliland, Somalia and elsewhere—countries the feedback I have had that some money service businesses that have no banking system and no proper provision, do not see any change. Can the Minister give any and about which there are terrorism and security examples of banks that have come back and said, concerns—without the support of safe routes through “Given this guidance”—I understand that it is legally money transfer companies, they are more at risk of binding—“we are in a position to provide banking having their money hijacked, which is not only dangerous facilities to MSBs that pass those tests.”? Are there any and damaging for those affected but can have major such examples, and are her officials working to establish ramifications for our security. There is a clear economic that? and humanitarian dimension, but there is also a security On the effort to build a commercial environment in dimension. which small and community-led businesses can operate, In the wider context, many parts of the world are given that they have extensive and trusted community undergoing humanitarian emergencies. Families want networks in the UK and the countries where they to get help to loved ones in post-conflict and conflict-affected operate, how can we work with the grain of those states, whether they are in Afghanistan, Somalia or networks, so that money flows transparently and in an 277WH Money Transfer Organisations9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Money Transfer Organisations 278WH

[Rushanara Ali] particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray)—who have explained appropriate and safe way that reinforces the kinds of their personal concerns and those of their constituents. safeguard needed by both the remitter and our Government As many people will know, the context for this debate and so that the money is not at risk of ending up in the is growing concern among banks globally about money wrong hands? laundering and terrorist financing, and of course the The debate has gone on for about 15 months now, real possibility of banks facing potentially crippling since the day when Barclays decided to withdraw banking enforcement action for failing to protect properly against facilities from a number of money transfer businesses in those risks. The money service business sector has been my constituency and throughout the country. The sector particularly affected by this trend, but it is not the only creates 3,500 jobs, which are at risk, and it has been one. quietly doing important work to get help and support Tackling organised crime and terrorism is quite rightly to millions of people in some of the poorest places in a priority for the UK and our international partners the world. around the world, including the US. The Prime Minister I believe that we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity took the lead in driving forward this agenda during our to work together rather than saying, “The banks have presidency of the G8 last year, and we are doing the decided that they will get big fines from the US regulators.” same through the G20 this year. Our banks and regulators The MSBs predominantly have had nothing to do with have a real responsibility to ensure that they are not that. The US regulators fined HSBC and other banks supporting activities that could pose a threat to British for their activities, and the banks have responded by citizens and undermine the progress that developing trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer, punishing countries are making. I know that hon. Members will the vast majority of MSBs, which are law-abiding. entirely agree that it is vital that, in ensuring remittances Many MSBs provide assistance to security services where are safe, we do not encourage money laundering, financial necessary, by supporting them to tackle money laundering crime and support for terrorism. and terrorism, and work responsibly with our Government The right approach to tackling those threats should and agencies. It is vital to ensure that the sector is strong effectively deter, detect and deal with those who seek to and can support people in developing countries. use the financial system, including money remitters and This is also a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to ensure banks, to launder money or fund terrorism; at the same that the pilot involving World Bank officials, Treasury time, it must support and protect legitimate businesses officials and others, if it is effective, provides a tool to and the critical lifelines for countries such as Somalia. I get money safely into post-conflict countries without wish to assure hon. Members today that the UK banking systems. If the pilot is successful in Somalia, it Government are fully committed to achieving that aim. might be applicable to Afghanistan and many other I also want to take the opportunity to provide an countries where money flows are happening, but we are update on the state of the remittance market in the UK, not clear how, and where they could be fuelling terrorism and to set out the steps that the Government have and other activities that are extremely dangerous not taken, and are taking, to support it. First, the UK only for those countries but for us. In that context, I Government have been closely monitoring the UK hope that the Minister will seize this big opportunity for remittance market, and we have been working with her, through her role and her brief, to develop a tool banks and businesses such as Dahabshiil and other that could save millions of lives and improve security in MSBs to help them to understand and manage these our country. risks, and to mitigate the impact on remittances to Somalia and elsewhere. 4.47 pm At this time it remains possible for Somali families in the UK, charities and others to continue to send money The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea to Somalia. However, we recognise that the situation Leadsom): It is a great pleasure to serve under your remains fragile. Since my predecessor—my right hon. chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I say first of all to the hon. Friend the Education Secretary—last addressed hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) Members, action to deal with this issue has remained an that I completely understand how vital money service urgent priority for the Government, and for me personally. businesses are to the humanitarian effort. I assure her that the Government and I have been extremely focused on creating safe remittances for UK residents to post 4.52 pm money to relatives and friends in developing countries. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. We are very much aware of that. We are particularly aware that annually, such remittances from the UK amount to more than £15 billion. It is a vital lifeline for 4.59 pm many, and I assure her that we understand that. In the On resuming— specific case of Somalia, remittances support 3.4 million people and account for approximately half of Somalia’s Andrea Leadsom: The action group on cross border gross national income. remittances, led by Sir Brian Pomeroy, has made real That is why, since I came into my new ministerial role progress on all fronts and regular updates on the work earlier this year, I have made sure that the UK Government of the group have been published on Gov.uk. As a do everything that we can to ensure that remittances result of the work of the group, which includes continue to flow through accessible and secure channels representatives from Government, regulators, law from the UK to all regions of the world. I am grateful enforcement, banks and remittance firms, the following to the hon. Lady and other hon. Members—I mention actions have been taken. 279WH Money Transfer Organisations9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Money Transfer Organisations 280WH

First, new guidance has been developed for MSBs Of course, I recognise that the real threat of United and those banking MSBs, providing a legal safe harbour States enforcement action is contributing to the de-risking for regulated firms; that is to say that in the event of a activity that we are seeing. Treasury officials are working prosecution, the firm or individual concerned could closely with their US Treasury counterparts and have provide a defence by saying that they had followed the established a US-UK bilateral banking group for the Treasury-approved guidance. Secondly, the National largest US and UK banks, to discuss the challenges Crime Agency has worked collaboratively with banks they are facing in this area. In fact, the second meeting and MSBs to share information about the risks and of this group is taking place today, with the issue of enable a better understanding of those and how they de-risking the highest priority on the agenda, and yesterday can be mitigated. Thirdly, Her Majesty’s Revenue and the Treasury hosted a meeting with US and UK banks Customs has continued to strengthen its supervision of and MSBs with the US Treasury to discuss that in the remittances sector, including by taking an increasingly particular. risk-based and intelligence-led approach to supervision, The hon. Lady asked a couple of specific questions providing better support for firms to help them comply about the urgency of working with the Financial Conduct with their legal and regulatory requirements, and Authority to retain banking facilities. I reassure her that particularly by doubling the number of inspections of the Government have considered a wide range of options firms to 1,200 per year. that could support the continued flow of remittances at The progress of the Somalia-focused working group, current levels, prior to the safer corridor pilot’s being led by the Department for International Development fully operational. We continue to encourage and facilitate and the World Bank, is of particular interest to many. engagement between relevant industry participants, to Through the safer corridor pilot, a series of co-ordinated help banks engage with MSBs that are raising standards interventions have been identified and are being developed now, as well as through the longer-term solutions provided to improve the transparency of remittance payments at by the safer corridor pilot. each stage of the transaction chain from the UK to Somalia. The pilot is in the design and consultation The hon. Lady also asked what engagement we have phase and is expected to be tested in early 2015. We will with the US on this point, and I think that I have just continue to consult community representatives to make answered her. It is understandable that US regulators sure that proposals for the safer corridor are designed in are very concerned about this issue, and that banks in a way that works for the Somali diaspora in the UK. I the UK that provide banking services to MSBs are also thank community representatives very much for their concerned, but it is true to say—I have made the point engagement with this whole process; they have certainly to the UK banks—that fines levied by the US on UK been willing and keen to help ensure that we find a banks have been for systematic failures in respect of resolution. anti-money laundering, counter-terrorism and financing programmes, rather than being cases where banks have Over the past few months, the UK Government have made reasonable efforts to manage their risks. worked particularly closely with the Somali community on the issue of remittances. Community representatives, Quite apart from the efforts by Her Majesty’s Treasury the Government and money remitters have prepared a and the banks here in the UK to talk to US regulators, I fact sheet, to ensure that those remitting funds to Somalia have also found it encouraging to see public messages have clear information about how they can do so. Over from US authorities, including in recent speeches, expressing the summer, a number of community events took place confidence that banks do have the ability to manage across the country. I particularly thank the hon. Lady higher-risk customer relationships, such as those with and my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and MSBs. Good steps are being taken and there is some Acton for kindly hosting some of those community reassurance there. events. I was pleased that Treasury officials, as well as In conclusion, I reassure hon. Members and the officials from DFID, HMRC and the National Crime Somali community that the UK Government are committed Agency, were able to attend, listen to community concerns to working with the firms affected, and with regulators and share information on the action the Government here and in the US, to promote and facilitate short and have taken. I understand the events were well received, longer-term solutions that will enable remittances to with the Somali diaspora appreciating the opportunity continue to flow while protecting the financial system to convey their concerns. and our countries from organised criminal and terrorist I am sure that hon. Members present will want to activity. know that we have been engaging closely with the Question put and agreed to. banking industry, both through the British Bankers Association and directly with those banks involved in this issue. I have personally rung and written to a number of UK banks, asking them to provide support 5.5 pm for the safer corridor pilot. Sitting adjourned.

33WS Written Statements9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Statements 34WS

Paris will not be the end of the road in terms of tackling Written Statements climate change, but an ambitious agreement would be a huge step forward which we can then build on in the Tuesday 9 September 2014 future. That is why today I am publishing the UK Government’s view on why we need a global deal on climate change, DEFENCE why one is good for the UK and what such a deal needs to look like. “Paris 2015: Securing our prosperity through Gifting of Equipment a Global Climate Change Agreement” sets out: what the science says and what the direct and indirect climate impacts are for the UK and the world, some of The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): I which we are already seeing today; am laying a departmental minute today concerning the the benefits of low-carbon action for our prosperity, security gifting of military equipment to the Government of and well-being, and how many leading British businesses, Iraq (GoI), including the Kurdish Regional Government. including SMEs, are already realising the commercial gains This is at the request of the GoI. from climate action; The UK is committed to assisting the GoI by: alleviating the scale of the challenge, the progress made so far and why we are better placed than we have been for a long time to the humanitarian suffering of those Iraqis targeted by reach a global agreement; and ISIL terrorists; promoting an inclusive, sovereign and our vision for what a successful global agreement needs to democratic Iraq that can push back on ISIL advances include and the UK’s role in helping to deliver that. and restore stability and security across the country; The Government are not alone in advocating action. and working with the international community to tackle Featuring support from businesses, NGOs and the broader threat that ISIL poses to the region and organisations, the publication demonstrates that we are other countries around the world, including the UK. united in our call for global action. The Kurdish forces remain significantly less well equipped Copies of the publication will be placed in the Libraries than ISIL and we are responding to help them defend of both Houses. themselves, protect citizens and push back ISIL advances. The initial gifting package is scheduled to arrive in Iraq on Wednesday 10 September and will consist of ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS heavy machine guns and ammunition. The total cost is approximately £1.6 million plus an estimated £475,000 Bovine TB in transport costs. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): I am today announcing that the second year of our planned, four-year badger culls is underway. This is part of our comprehensive Climate Change strategic approach to make England TB-free. This approach includes cattle movement restrictions, vaccination in the The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change edge area, and culling where the disease is rife. Culling (Mr Edward Davey): Climate change is almost universally operations started last night in the same areas as last recognised as a serious threat to global prosperity, year, west Gloucestershire and west Somerset. security and well-being. We are already experiencing the It is vital that we work to make England bovine impacts of climate change within the UK. Extreme TB-free—doing nothing is not an option. England now weather events at home and abroad already cause significant has the highest incidence of TB in Europe—greater costs and disruption to UK businesses, and we are than the sum of all other EU member states combined. predicted to experience increasingly frequent and severe Between 1997 and 2010, TB in cattle increased ninefold, flooding and are vulnerable to a predicted rise in heat threatening the future of our beef and dairy industries waves, storms and gales, as well as rising sea levels and our nation’s food security. which will cause increased encroachment on our coastal That is why this Government are pursuing a areas. comprehensive strategic approach, based on best The world is not asking if we need to tackle climate international practice, supported by leading vets and change, but how. Over 90 countries, covering 80% of endorsed by the Government’s chief scientific adviser, global emissions, have already pledged to cut their DEFRA’s chief scientist and the chief veterinary officer. emissions by 2020 under the Copenhagen accord. But Overseas experience shows that in order to eradicate this is not nearly enough to prevent global temperatures the disease, the problem must be tackled in both cattle exceeding the globally agreed target of 2° C and, as a and wildlife. Therefore, our approach includes tighter consequence, the world is increasingly experiencing the cattle testing and movement restrictions, vaccination of worst impacts of climate change. Action is needed on a badgers in the edge area and culling of badgers in those co-ordinated global scale from every country in the areas where the disease is rife. This approach has worked world. in Australia which is now bovine TB-free, and Ireland All countries of the UNFCCC agreed in 2011 to and New Zealand, where incidence has dramatically negotiate a global legally binding agreement by 2015, to reduced. come into force by 2020. These negotiations are progressing, Last week I launched the badger edge vaccination and will conclude at the 21st UNFCCC conference of scheme to support badger vaccination projects in those parties in Paris in December 2015. The UK is at the areas next to the high- risk area. Vaccinating healthy forefront of helping to shape and deliver this agreement. badgers in this way is intended to create a buffer zone to 35WS Written Statements9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Statements 36WS help prevent the spread of bovine TB to new parts of After the significant increases in 2013-14 and 2014-15, the country where the incidence of the disease is currently in real-terms funding for local authorities will remain at very low. Vaccination cannot, however, replace culling £2.79 billion for 2015-16. This funding will remain in TB hot spots such as Gloucestershire and Somerset ring-fenced for use exclusively on public health measures, as it does not cure infected badgers who will continue to and we are confident of local authorities’ continuing spread disease. ability to sustain and improve the quality of their This year’s culls incorporate improvements learned services in the coming financial year. from last year’s culls and those set out in the independent expert panel’s report. We have made changes to improve Taken together over the period 2013-14 to 2015-16 the humaneness and effectiveness, including better training we have increased public health spending by 4.7% in and monitoring. real terms and over 10% in cash terms. This represents a major investment in health and the prevention of illness. The culls will be monitored closely and we have published details of the monitoring procedures that We will also allocate an additional £5 million towards AHVLA and Natural England will follow on gov.uk. a new health premium incentive pilot scheme in 2014-15, As with last year, these results will be independently meeting our commitment to introducing a health premium audited. that will encourage local authorities to improve the health of their populations and will reduce health HEALTH inequalities. Local authorities are invited to give us their views on this scheme. Local Authority Funding (Public Health) “Health Premium Incentive Scheme 2014-15 and Public Health Allocations—A Technical Consultation”, which The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health contains details of the allocations and the incentive (Jane Ellison): Today I am announcing public health scheme, has been placed in the Library. Copies are allocations for local authorities in England for 2015-16 available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to and details of a new health premium incentive pilot noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. scheme. 11P Petitions9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Petitions 12P

prove that the barrister had misrepresented his situation Petition but this request was refused by HHJ Cardinal via court correspondence of 3 February 2014 indicating that the Tuesday 9 September 2014 other party needed to be able to oppose the provision of a transcript; further that the Petitioner provided a copy of his GP’s report dated 13 September 2013 which PRESENTED PETITION stated that the investigating medical practitioner Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor “felt, following his own assessment that as Mr Flynn did not complain of any symptoms or display [any] signs of mental illness Access to Court Transcripts that a referral on the NHS [for mental health assessment] was not The Petition of Andy Flynn, appropriate” Declares that the Petitioner is a father living in England; and that is why the Petitioner was not referred for further that the Petitioner instigated family law proceedings; psychiatric evaluation; and further that during the final further that on 27 February 2013 the Petitioner was hearing on 17 October 2013 HHJ Cardinal refused the ordered by the court to serve a medical report to disprove Petitioner permission to present evidence to the court false allegations about his own mental health made by to support his case. his ex-wife in an attempt to mitigate her actions; further The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of that the Petitioner believes that on 20 June 2013 his Commons Justice Select Committee investigates the estranged wife’s barrister Miss Fox misrepresented to way in which the courts refuse litigants access to the the court the contents of a medical report; further that evidence which would allow them to prove malpractice the Petitioner believes that Miss Fox falsely stated that in the courts; further requests that the Justice Select his medical report contained information that he was Committee proposes legislative changes in order to stop treated with a medication called risperidone for a psychiatric this from happening in the future; and further requests condition and misrepresented to the court the contents that the Justice Select Committee reviews the manner in of a medical report; further that the Petitioner believes which the family courts selectively refuse to allow evidence that as a consequence of the statement by Miss Fox he to be presented thereby undermining justice. was prevented from having contact with his children and at the final hearing was not permitted to make his And the Petitioner remains, etc.—[Presented by John own case; further that the Petitioner requested a copy of Hemming.] the transcript of the hearing of 20 June 2013 in order to [P001387]

501W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 502W

Lynne Featherstone: The current outbreak of Ebola Written Answers to poses a serious public health risk to West Africa and is deeply concerning. The UK is taking a leading role in Questions working with the countries affected and with the international community to ensure that the outbreak is contained and help reaches those in need. In total, over Monday 8 September 2014 £25 million of British funding is supporting the global effort to contain this disease. This includes £5 million of [Continued from Column 500W] new direct funding to help partners working on the ground like the WHO, Red Cross and Médecins Sans Frontières? to treat victims and prevent the spread of Ebola. Over £20 million of UK support is helping INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT contain Ebola through commitments to multilateral Iraq institutions (the World Bank and the African Development Bank) and the EU. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much humanitarian Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State aid the UK is offering to support victims of Islamic for International Development if she will take steps to State in Northern Iraq. [207677] provide further support to West African countries to deal with the ebola outbreak. [208069] Justine Greening: DFID is leading the UK’s humanitarian response and is getting life-saving aid to people across Lynne Featherstone: The UK is taking a leading role Northern and Central Iraq who have fled ISIL terrorists. in working with the countries affected and with the In addition to the £13 million already pledged, I announced international community to ensure that the current a further £10 million of support during my recent visit Ebola outbreak is contained and help reaches those in to Iraq. Over £18 million of this is specifically focused need. In total, over £25 million of British funding is on helping those in Northern Iraq. supporting the global effort to contain this disease. This includes £5 million of new direct funding to help partners Overseas Aid working on the ground like the WHO, Red Cross and Médecins Sans Frontières? to treat victims and prevent Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for the spread of Ebola. The UK is working with partners International Development what the GDP is of each of to explore options for further support. the 10 countries receiving the most aid from the UK; and what the average GDP value is of all other aid Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State recipients. [207777] for International Development what assessment she has made of the implications for her Department’s policies Mr Swayne: The GDP of each of the 10 countries of the briefing given by Médecins Sans Frontières at the receiving the most bilateral Official Development Assistance UN on 2 September 2014. [208070] (ODA) from the UK in 2012 and the average GDP value of all other aid recipients are shown in the table. GDP is presented both in absolute terms and per capita. Lynne Featherstone: The UK welcomes the call to GDP per capita is more widely used since it takes into action from Médecins sans Frontières (MSF). The UK account the population of each country, giving a more is taking a leading role in responding to the Ebola outbreak meaningful measure. and is working with other donors, the Governments of affected countries, and partners on the ground to coordinate GDP per capita a more effective response to the crisis. UK officials are Country (£) GDP (£ million) in regular contact with MSF to discuss improving the response to the outbreak. To date, over £25 million of India 949 1,173,054 British funding is supporting the global effort to contain Afghanistan 434 12,942 this disease. Ethiopia 295 27,014 Nigeria 1,718 290,064 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Bangladesh 473 73,229 for International Development what discussions she Pakistan 792 141,922 has had with Médecins Sans Frontières on the recent Tanzania 384 17,828 ebola outbreak. [208071] Congo, Dem. Rep. 264 17,325 Zimbabwe 574 7,871 Lynne Featherstone: The current outbreak of Ebola Malawi 168 2,676 poses a serious public health risk to West Africa and is It is not possible to give an average for other countries deeply concerning. The UK is funding Médecins sans as GDP data for 2012 is not available for all countries. Frontières (MSF) to provide treatment and care to Ebola patients in Sierra Leone and Liberia, and officials West Africa are in regular contact with MSF to discuss the response to the outbreak. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent support she Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of has provided to countries in West Africa to help them State for International Development what assistance with the recent ebola outbreak. [208068] her Department is giving to (a) Sierra Leone and (b) 503W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 504W other countries in West Africa to them help counter the Corporation Tax outbreak of Ebola; and if she will make a statement. [208085] James Wharton: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what recent representations he has received on the Lynne Featherstone: The current outbreak of Ebola level of the threshold for corporation tax exemption for poses a serious public health risk to West Africa and is charities and unincorporated associations; [207637] deeply concerning. The UK is taking a leading role in working with the countries affected and with the (2) if he will raise the threshold for corporation tax international community to ensure that the outbreak is exemption for charities and unincorporated associations. contained and help reaches those in need. In total, over [207638] £25 million of British funding is supporting the global effort to contain this disease. This includes £5 million of Mr Gauke: There is no restriction on the level of new direct funding to help partners working on the charitable trading a charity may carry out, and any ground like the WHO, Red Cross and Médecins Sans profits are exempt from tax so long as the profits are Frontières? to treat victims and prevent the spread of used for wholly charitable purposes. When charities Ebola. Given the UK’s historical relationship with Sierra carry out non-charitable trading, there is a corporation Leone, the majority of UK direct funding is supporting tax exemption so long as the trading receipts are no the response in that country. Overall £20 million of UK more than £50,000 a year and represent no more than support is helping contain Ebola across West Africa 25% of the charity’s incoming resources. through commitments to multilateral institutions (the Charities that wish to carry out non-charitable trading World Bank and the African Development Bank) and above these limits can set up and trade through a the EU. subsidiary trading company, which protects the charity from the possibility of trading losses. The subsidiary can then use corporate Gift Aid to pass any profits back to the parent charity without incurring a corporation TREASURY tax charge. There is a similar exemption from tax on trading Banks: Telecommunications income for community amateur sports clubs, which is currently set at £30,000. The Government has announced this threshold will be raised to £50,000, to align with the Steve McCabe: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer charity small-scale trading exemption. if he will introduce legislative proposals to require all retail banks to offer a secure automated messaging The Government has no further plans to raise these services for customers. [206966] thresholds which allow charities to undertake small scale non-charitable trading without the administrative burden of setting up a trading subsidiary. However, as Andrea Leadsom: There are no current plans to introduce with all reliefs and exemptions, we continue to keep the legislation to require all retail banks to offer secure exemption for small-scale trading under review. automated messaging services to customers. Unincorporated associations are taxed as companies Consumers: Protection and have no specific corporation tax exemptions. In the same way as other companies, they are chargeable to corporation tax and are eligible for the same reliefs. Stella Creasy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The only exception to this rule concerns clubs and pursuant to the answer of 9 July 2014, Official Report, unincorporated organisations with very small tax liabilities, column 355W,on consumers: protection, what assessment which are run exclusively for the benefit of their members he has made of the effect on consumers of the limits on and whose annual corporation tax liability is not expected the Financial Conduct Authority’s powers to issue fines to exceed £100. In this case, HMRC will treat the in cases which involve (a) breaches before April 2014 organisation as dormant. and (b) investigations begun by other agencies before April 2014. [206826] With regards to the representations received on these matters, Treasury Ministers and officials receive and consider a wide variety of representations from Andrea Leadsom: The Government has considerably organisations in the public and private sectors as part of strengthened the FCA’s powers in relation to misconduct the process of policy development and delivery. which occurs under the new regulatory regime. For example, the FCA has the ability to impose unlimited The Treasury publishes a list of ministerial meetings fines for breaches of regulatory requirements that take with external organisations. This is available online at: place after 1 April 2014. https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/hmt-ministers- Additionally, the Government has ensured that the meetings-hospitality-gifts-and-overseas-travel FCA has inherited the OFT’s powers (both criminal and regulatory) in relation to misconduct which occurred Credit: Interest Rates before 1 April 2014. This means that the FCA can apply the sanctions available to the OFT under the previous Mike Kane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer regulatory regime. (1) what estimate his Department has made of the share The FCA also has the ability to take into account of the payday lending market covered by (a) Experian, evidence of previous misconduct when considering a (b) Equifax, (c) CallCredit (d) CoreLogic and (e) firm’s fitness to hold FCA permission. FactorTrust; [207344] 505W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 506W

(2) what assessment his Department has made of the to 877,414 policyholders. In the context of Scheme’s effect on credit scores of increased data sharing by £1.5 billion allocation, which includes funding for the payday lenders; [207339] continuing annual payments to With-Profit Annuitants, (3) if he will take steps to prohibit credit reference the Scheme has made good progress in tracing policyholders. agencies from selling payday customer details to However, the Scheme remains committed to finding marketing agencies and lead generators; [207340] and paying as many eligible policyholders as possible prior to its closure. Any decision will therefore be taken (4) if he will instruct the Financial Conduct at the end of the Scheme, taking account of ongoing Authority to require credit reference agencies to report challenges facing public finances at that time. their data to the Authority for enforcement purposes. [207341] Fuels: Excise Duties Meg Hillier: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he is taking to introduce regulation which Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer requires payday lenders and credit reference agencies to what assessment he has made of the fuel discount contribute data on a real-time basis. [207380] scheme for rural communities. [207971]

Andrea Leadsom: The Government has made clear to Priti Patel: The current rural fuel rebate scheme is in lenders that credit data sharing is key to proper affordability place for the Scottish Islands and the Isles of Scilly. An assessments and promoting a competitive market, and evaluation of the scheme by HMRC found it to be more progress on recording and using payday lending effectively meeting the policy objective of reducing the data in real time is vital to addressing problems around pump prices faced by motorists. The evaluation report multiple loans. can be found at: Having access to comprehensive real-time data about http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/rural-fuel-duty-relief.pdf their customers’ outstanding commitments may help Revenue and Customs avoid consumers taking out a loan which they cannot afford to repay. Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The FCA has already made clear to payday lenders how many employees HM Revenue and Customs had in and credit reference agencies (CRAs) in its policy statement, each of the last five years. [207623] published in February, that they must identify and remove any data sharing blockages involving payday Mr Gauke: The Office for National Statistics publishes lenders as a matter of urgency. staffing figures in the Annual Civil Service Survey reports. In its consultation on the cap on the cost of payday These can be found at: loans, published in July, the FCA stated it expects to see http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pse/civil-service-statistics more than 90% of current market participants - by market share and volume of loans-participating in real-time Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Chancellor of the market-wide data sharing by November 2014, and more Exchequer what his Department’s regional location than 90% of loans being reported in real time. In order strategy for HM Revenue and Customs offices is up to to improve the coverage of real-time databases, firms 2020. [207740] will also need to share data with more than one CRA. The FCA stated that it will request information from Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is firms and CRAs in order to get an accurate picture of reshaping to become a smaller, more highly skilled whether the standards it has proposed have been met by organisation to meet the efficiencies required by the November. If the FCA does not see sufficient progress spending reviews, 2010 and 2013. by November or CRA coverage does not improve, it Its strategic intention is to move to fewer, larger will consult on the introduction of data sharing regional centres, supplemented by other offices to provide requirements. It has also placed a requirement on firms specialist resources or touch down facilities for mobile to provide product sales data on high-cost short-term staff. HMRC is considering what the offices of the credit agreements every three months once they are future will look like and where they will be located. It is authorised. currently involving all staff in a national conversation Credit reference agencies must ensure that that their on progress and expects more detail to be available at use of personal data is compliant with the Data Protection the end of 2015. Act 1998 (DPA). The Information Commissioner’s Office In 2012 HMRC gave a commitment to retaining a is an independent UK supervisory authority that oversees presence in 16 key centres until at least 2020. and enforces compliance with the DPA. Revenue and Customs: South West Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the what assessment he has made of the potential effect of Exchequer if he will distribute any remaining funds in proposed closures of HM Revenue and Customs’ enquiry the Equitable Life Payment Scheme to Equitable Life centres on people in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset. victims at scheme closure. [207625] [207739]

Andrea Leadsom: No decisions have been taken. As Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) reported in the Scheme’s July Progress Report, the launched a new service across the UK on 29 May 2014 Scheme has now issued payments of around £972.9 million to support people who need extra help in getting their 507W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 508W tax and benefits right. This replaced HMRC’s network Lindsay Roy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of 281 Enquiry Centre’s which closed to the public on what progress he has made on tackling tax avoidance in 30 June 2014. the UK; and if he will make a statement. [208142] The decision to make this change was based on extensive evaluation from independent customer research, Mr Gauke: This Government is committed to taking a 10-week public consultation exercise and a successful strong and robust action to tackle tax avoidance. Since pilot of the new service which took place in the North April 2010 the Government has made 42 changes to tax East of England involving the closure of 13 Enquiry law, closing loopholes and introducing major reforms Centres from June to Dec 2013. to the UK tax system. These include the introduction of a General Anti-Abuse Rule and strengthening the The evaluation assessed the impact and effect on Disclosure of Tax Avoidance Schemes regime. rural areas, transport links and costs to customers. Through a tougher monitoring regime for high-risk The new service is more accessible to these communities, promoters of tax avoidance schemes, backed up with since customers are able to arrange appointments with penalties, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is taking HMRC at locations convenient to them, this includes significant action to discourage people from entering visits to their home if appropriate. into expensive avoidance schemes which, in the majority Self-employed: National Insurance Contributions of cases, don’t work. We legislated for Accelerated Payments in this year’s Finance Act, which will enable HMRC to collect disputed tax upfront, along with the Karen Lumley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer new High Risk Promoters regime. what recent assessment he has made of the extent to which employers use self-employed staff to avoid paying We have invested £1 billion over this spending review national insurance contributions. [207809] period to tackle tax avoidance and evasion. HMRC have secured over £77 billion in compliance yield since Mr Gauke: The Government has not made a recent the beginning of the Parliament; £31 billion of which assessment of the extent to which employers use self- was from large businesses, and £850 million of which employed staff to avoid paying National Insurance was from High Net Worth individuals. Around 80% of contributions. the avoidance cases heard in the courts are being won by HMRC, with 30 wins protecting £2.7 billion of tax in Sovereignty: Scotland 2013/14.

Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer VAT: Imports how many leaflets produced by his Department promoting the Government’s policy on the Scottish independence Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer referendum have had to be amended, altered or destroyed; what progress has been made on the HMRC review and at what cost to the public purse. [207049] into Simplified Import VAT Accounts. [207981]

Danny Alexander: HM Treasury has not produced Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) any leaflets promoting the Government’s policy on the expect to publish a report by 30 September 2014 on Scottish independence referendum. Simplified Import VAT Accounts. Tax Avoidance WORK AND PENSIONS Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in how many tax avoidance cases HM Revenue and Carer’s Allowance Customs has litigated in each of the last five years; and in how many of these it was successful. [207624] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Mr Gauke: Between March 2010 and April 2014, adequacy of the carer’s allowance; and if he will make decisions were handed down by the courts and tribunals a statement. [208015] in 124 tax avoidance cases litigated by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC). HMRC was successful in winning Mr Harper: The primary purpose of Carer’s Allowance all or some points in 101of these. Many of these cases is to provide a measure of financial support for people involved several taxpayers, and concerned marketed who give up the opportunity of full-time employment avoidance schemes used by many more. The following in order to provide regular and substantial care for a table sets out the number of litigation cases that have severely disabled person. It is not, and was never intended been decided upon and the number of cases where to be, a carer’s wage or a payment for the services of HMRC has been successful on some or all points in the caring. It is also not intended to replace lost or forgone years 2010-11 to 2013-14. A similar analysis has not earnings in their entirety. been made for 2009-10. In addition to Carer’s Allowance, carers on low incomes can claim income-related benefits, such as Income Support Decisions in Successes for and Pension Credit. These benefits can be paid to carers avoidance cases HMRC at a higher rate of up to an additional £34.20 a week. 2010-11 28 24 2011-12 27 23 Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2012-13 30 24 and Pensions if he will make it his policy that a person 2013-14 39 30 in receipt of carer’s allowance may claim that allowance for each person cared for. [208016] 509W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 510W

Mr Harper: Carer’s Allowance was introduced to However, in the majority of cases, claimants will be provide a measure of financial support for carers who expected to sign on whilst participating in a course. have forgone the opportunity of full-time employment Where conflicting appointments/course times arise, we in order to care for a severely disabled person. Carer’s make every effort to re-arrange claimants’ signing on Allowance is not a payment for the services of caring, arrangements. therefore it is payable for the care of only one severely If the decision is that the claimant is to continue disabled person, even if the carer is looking after two or attending the Jobcentre and the claimant fails to do so, more people and there are no plans to change this without having a good reason, their benefit may be policy. sanctioned. EU Law Lead: Industrial Health and Safety Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many new EU directives and regulations Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for have been transposed into UK law by his Department Work and Pensions how many prosecutions have been since May 2010. [207267] brought against employers in respect of exposure of employees to lead in each of the last three years. Esther McVey: Since 2010, 66 EU directives have [207775] been transposed and 49 direct-acting EU regulations have come into effect. Mr Harper: Occupational exposure to lead is regulated by the Control of Lead at Work Regulations (CLAW) Industrial Health and Safety 2002. In the last three years to April 2014, the Health and Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Safety Executive has prosecuted the following number and Pensions what assessment he has made of the level of cases in relation to breaches of CLAW: of variation of health and safety regulations between local authorities and of the effect of such variation on Number small and medium-sized enterprises. [207810] 2011-12 0 Mr Harper: The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) 2012-13 1 has ongoing discussions with local authorities (LA) in 2013-14 2 respect of their regulation of health and safety, including an annual statistical return. The most recent assessment for 2013/14 and comparisons with previous years showed Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for a continued move towards a greater consistency in Work and Pensions what steps the Government is taking approach by local authorities. to protect the health of painters and decorators at work in relation to lead paint. [207774] The national activity and variation between local authorities is reported to the HSE/LA Enforcement Liaison Committee, published on the HSE website and Mr Harper: Protection of the health of painters and used by local authorities in bench marking and peer decorators at work in relation to lead based paint is review processes. achieved by restricting access to such paints and by limiting exposure. No assessment has been made of the effect of any variation on small and medium-sized enterprises. The marketing and use of lead based paint is restricted in the UK by the EU Registration, Evaluation, Jobseeker’s Allowance Authorisation and restriction of Chemicals Regulation (REACH). Under the current conditions of the REACH Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work restriction, there is a derogation to allow for limited use and Pensions whether it is his Department’s policy to of lead based paint in the restoration and maintenance permit jobseeker’s allownce claimants who follow their of historic buildings and artwork. Those intending to advisor’s instructions to attend a jobcentre course use lead based paint must provide a declaration of the instead of signing on to be sanctioned or have their intended use to both the supplier and to the relevant competent authority before any work commences. claim stopped because they did not sign on. [207548] Further protection is afforded by the Control of Esther McVey: Where a Jobseeker’s Allowance claimant Lead at Work Regulations (CLAW) 2002. These is required to participate in a Jobcentre course, they are Regulations apply to activities involved in the application given information, verbally and in writing, which includes of lead based paint in permitted circumstances as described details about the course itself, what they are required to above and also to refurbishment work such as maintenance do by way of participation, and whether they are still of buildings, where the removal of lead based paint can required to attend the Jobcentre and meet their benefit create risks of exposure. conditions whilst attending the course. Under CLAW duty holders are required to make a There are some circumstances where DWP can excuse suitable and sufficient risk assessment, including identifying a person from the requirement to sign on, in order to whether lead based paint or other lead-containing material enable them to participate in a course. This includes is present. Informed by that assessment, duty holders those claimants who are participating as a full-time must identify, and implement adequate control measures student on an employment related course for a maximum to minimise the exposure of workers to inhalable lead of two weeks. particles and ensuring high standards of personal hygiene. 511W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 512W

If exposure to lead is likely to be significant, employers Institute for Employment Studies. This evaluation includes are also required to carry out air monitoring and medical large scale surveys which include significant numbers of surveillance of employees. ethnic minority Work Programme participants.

Unemployment: Brighton Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions which recommendations made by Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the Work Programme Best Practice Group have been and Pensions what estimate he has made of the effects (a) fully implemented, (b) partially implemented and of the benefits cap on reducing unemployment in (c) not implemented; and if he will make a statement. Brighton, Kemptown constituency; and if he will make [208078] a statement. [207091] Esther McVey: In October 2014 we will be publishing Esther McVey: The DWP will be evaluating the benefit the full report of the Work Programme: Building Best cap policy and, where possible, its impact on movement Practice Group, and the Department’s responses to into work later this year and expect to publish these each recommendation. findings in autumn 2014. The latest official Benefit cap statistics, available at www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE attachment_data/file/341890/benefit-cap-may-2014.pdf show that by May 2014, 120 households had been Biofuels: Imports capped in Brighton Kemptown constituency. Among the 54 households that are no longer capped, 17 have Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for moved into work, as shown by them having an open Energy and Climate Change what proportion of the Working Tax Credit claim. In addition to this there may demand for biomass for combustion in the UK is met be a small number of cases who have moved into work by imports. [207889] with sufficiently high salaries that they are not entitled to Working Tax Credit. Amber Rudd: In 2013, 35% of the demand for biomass Universal Credit for combustion was met by imports, net of exports. Source: Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Table DUKES 6.1 (columns B-E), Digest of UK Energy Statistics Work and Pensions (1) what proportion of universal 2014, available at: credit claimants have a payment made directly to their https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/renewable-sources- landlord; [208008] of-energy-chapter-6-digest-of-united-kingdom-energy- statistics-dukes (2) what the value is of payments made directly to landlords for universal credit claimants in (a) total and Energy: Billing (b) each local authority. [208007] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Steve Webb: The information requested is not currently for Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment available. he has made of the effect of changes in energy bills on The Department published its strategy for releasing households and businesses in rural areas. [207640] official statistics on Universal Credit (UC) in September 2013 which can be found at: Amber Rudd: The Government is concerned about https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/universal-credit- the effect of changes in energy bills on all households statistics and businesses, including those in rural areas and considers As outlined in the strategy, officials are currently the needs of all types of households and businesses quality assuring data for UC therefore it is not yet when developing policies. possible to give a definitive list of what statistics will be We publish regular information on industrial energy provided in the future. These statistics however will be prices and on domestic energy bills in DECC’s Quarterly published in accordance with the relevant protocols in Energy Prices. Industrial prices are only available at the the Code of Practice for Official Statistics. UK level. Average domestic energy bills are produced The latest official experimental statistics on UC can for each of the 15 Public Electricity Supply (PES) be found at: regions in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/universal-credit- https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/quarterly-energy- statistics prices We also publish regular information on the impact of Work Programme policies on prices and bills. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/estimated- Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for impacts-of-energy-and-climate-change-policies-on-energy- Work and Pensions what steps he will take to ensure prices-and-bills that evaluations of the Work Programme look at its performance for ethnic minority jobseekers. [208014] Energy: Meters

Esther McVey: DWP commissioned a comprehensive David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for evaluation of the Work programme which was conducted Energy and Climate Change (1) with reference to the by a consortium of external researchers led by the policy document entitled, Helping households to cut 513W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 514W their energy bills, supporting pages on smart meters, As is the case with traditional meters, the Government updated online on 24 July 2014, who receives the expects that both costs and cost savings as a result of benefits of £17.1 billion for the installation of smart smart metering will be passed to consumers by competing meters in homes; and what form those benefits take; energy suppliers through energy bills. We estimate that [207543] this is will result in energy bill reductions as a result of (2) with reference to the policy document entitled, smart metering of £26 a year by 2020, rising to around Helping households to cut their energy bills, supporting £43 per household a year by 2030, for the average dual pages on smart meters, updated online on 24 July 2014, fuel domestic consumer—taking into account all the who incurs the costs of £10.9 billion for the installation costs and savings. of smart meters in homes. [207542] The Impact Assessment, updated in January 2014, provides further details of these benefits and costs: Matthew Hancock: Smart meters will bring an end to https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/smart-meter- estimated billing, helping consumers to budget better roll-out-for-the-domestic-and-small-and-medium-non- and help make switching between suppliers easier and domestic-sectors-gb-impact-assessment faster. Domestic and non-domestic consumers will have Fuel Poverty near-real time information on their energy consumption to help them control their energy use, and avoid wasting Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for energy and money. Smart metering can transform the Energy and Climate Change (1) with reference to chart prepay experience. Topping up a smart meter in prepay 4.6 of the Annual Fuel Poverty Statistics Report 2014, mode should become as easy as topping up a mobile published by his Department on 12 June 2014, what phone. New products and services will be supported in proportion of the (a) local authority, (b) owner-occupied, a vibrant, competitive, more efficient market in energy (c) private rented and (d) housing association households and energy management. are in fuel poverty; [207538] Suppliers will have access to accurate data for billing (2) with reference to table 4.6 of the Annual Fuel and to improve their customer service. They will also be Poverty Statistics Report 2014, published by his Department able to reduce costs, for example by reducing call centre on 12 June 2014, what proportion of the total fuel traffic, removing the need for a site visit to read meters poverty gap is made up of (a) local authority, (b) and better manage debt. owner-occupied, (c) private rented and (d) housing Energy networks will have better information upon association households; [207537] which to manage and plan their activities and smart (3) with reference to section 4.2.4 of the Annual Fuel meters enable smart grids which support sustainable Poverty Statistics Report, published by his Department energy supply. on 12 June 2014, what proportion of fuel-poor households Energy suppliers will be responsible for purchasing live in (a) local authority, (b) owner-occupied, (c) and installing smart meters. Energy suppliers and other private rented and (d) housing association housing. energy industry participants, such as network operators, [207541] will also incur costs as part of upgrades to their systems and for Data and Communications Company services, Amber Rudd: The figures requested under the Low so that they are able to take full advantage of smart Income High Costs (LIHC) indicator for the years metering. 2003-12 are given as follows:

Fuel Poverty by tenure, England, As a Average Proportion of proportion Aggregate fuel Total Number of households of fuel poverty poverty Proportion number of Fuel Poor within group households gap (£ gap (£): of aggregate households households who are Fuel who are fuel million): Real fuel poverty Tenure (thousand) (thousand) Poor (%) poor (%) Real Terms1 Terms1 gap (%)

Local Authority 2003 2,338 528 23 21.6 107 203 17 2004 2,215 477 22 19.2 86 180 13 2005 2,059 374 18 15.4 75 201 10 2006 1,980 310 16 13.7 75 242 8 2007 1,885 278 15 11.8 66 236 7 2008 1,908 286 15 11.7 70 244 7 2009 1,776 277 16 11.1 62 224 6 2010 1,758 234 13 9.5 53 226 5 2011 1,816 183 10 7.7 42 232 4 2012 1,728 164 9 7.2 36 218 4

Owner Occupied 2003 14,870 1,235 8 50.6 320 259 52 2004 14,922 1,301 9 52.2 369 284 56 2005 14,998 1,315 9 54.2 458 348 59 2006 15,128 1,265 8 55.9 559 442 61 515W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 516W

Fuel Poverty by tenure, England, As a Average Proportion of proportion Aggregate fuel Total Number of households of fuel poverty poverty Proportion number of Fuel Poor within group households gap (£ gap (£): of aggregate households households who are Fuel who are fuel million): Real fuel poverty Tenure (thousand) (thousand) Poor (%) poor (%) Real Terms1 Terms1 gap (%)

2007 15,221 1,348 9 57.2 587 435 63 2008 14,628 1,302 9 53.4 567 436 58 2009 14,566 1,321 9 53.1 637 483 59 2010 14,511 1,325 9 53.6 643 485 62 2011 14,368 1,220 8 51.0 608 499 57 2012 14,291 1,163 8 50.9 589 507 58

Private Rented 2003 1,966 467 24 19.1 152 324 24 2004 2,184 490 22 19.7 165 337 25 2005 2,326 511 22 21.0 196 383 25 2006 2,368 495 21 21.9 232 468 25 2007 2,472 540 22 22.9 233 432 25 2008 2,996 626 21 25.7 288 459 29 2009 3,287 663 20 26.7 323 486 30 2010 3,401 701 21 28.3 290 414 28 2011 3,716 782 21 32.7 361 461 34 2012 3,929 755 19 33.1 336 445 33

Housing 2003 1,550 211 14 8.6 42 202 7 Association 2004 1,611 224 14 9.0 41 182 6 2005 1,752 228 13 9.4 46 201 6 2006 1,745 193 11 8.5 47 243 5 2007 1,802 190 11 8.1 45 239 5 2008 1,875 224 12 9.2 59 264 6 2009 1,907 225 12 9.1 59 261 5 2010 1,930 213 11 8.6 54 253 5 2011 2,018 205 10 8.6 53 261 5 2012 1,987 201 10 8.8 51 252 5

All households 2003 20,724 2,441 12 100.0 621 254 100 2004 20,931 2,492 12 100.0 661 265 100 2005 21,134 2,428 11 100.0 774 319 100 2006 21,221 2,262 11 100.0 913 403 100 2007 21,380 2,357 11 100.0 931 395 100 2008 21,407 2,438 11 100.0 984 404 100 2009 21,535 2,486 12 100.0 1,081 435 100 2010 21,600 2,474 11 100.0 1,040 421 100 2011 21,918 2,390 11 100.0 1,065 445 100 2012 21,935 2,283 10 100.0 1,012 443 100

EDUCATION (3) how many academies and studio colleges which Academies: Closures were entirely new businesses were closed by her Department in the first year of trading. [207510] Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) how many new academies and studio colleges have been closed by her Department on the Mr Timpson: Two studio colleges were closed by the basis of lack of student numbers within their first year Department for Education on the basis of lack of of trading; [207508] student numbers within their first year of trading. They (2) how many academies and studio colleges created were both entirely new businesses. No studio colleges from a pre-existing education institution were closed by created from a pre-existing education institution were her Department in the first year of trading; [207509] closed by the Department in the first year. 517W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 518W

No academies which were entirely new businesses choose to focus on is entirely their decision and we were closed by the Department in the first year. Three expect to see a diverse range of approaches building on academies created from a pre-existing education institution existing partnerships. This is not intended as a direct merged with another establishment in the first year. replacement for HEI delivered post ITT SKE programmes, and the opportunity remains for teachers and schools Armed Forces: Cadets to purchase courses from HEIs to meet their professional development needs. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for The National Science Learning Centre and five regional Education what recent progress she has made on the Science Learning Centre Consortia offer high quality bursary scheme to set up cadet units in schools. science CPD for teachers and technicians working with [207651] pupils aged 5 to 19. Teachers are encouraged to consider the opportunities offered by the Regional Science Learning Mr Timpson: The Cadet Bursary Fund was launched Centres, who also provide professional development by the Prime Minister on 18 June to help state schools bursaries (Impact Awards) that are funded by the set up, grow and sustain new cadet units. The aim of Department for Education. our Cadet Expansion Programme is to see 100 new state school units established by September 2015. 49 new Sir Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for units have been approved so far. Education if she will make it her policy to encourage The Cadet Bursary fund will be administered by the more universities to provide chemistry subject knowledge Combined Cadet Force Association. The Department enhancement courses which are 24 weeks or longer. for Education is supporting the development of a [207387] fundraising strategy to ensure the legacy of the fund. To date, £1,560,000 has been donated or pledged to Mr Laws: Initial teacher training (ITT) providers and the fund. This comprises £1 million from Libor funds, School Direct (SD) schools are responsible for identifying £250,000 from Youth United funding and £310,000 whether an ITT applicant needs to undertake a subject from private donations. The fund will open to applications knowledge enhancement (SKE) course and the length from schools involved in the Cadet Expansion Programme of any course required. This decision is based on the on 15 September, and grant decisions will be announced ITT provider or SD school’s assessment of the applicant’s in early December. subject knowledge and the requirements of the ITT course they have applied to. We will publish the full details on the application process and detailed guidance for schools shortly. ITT providers and SD schools can commission SKE courses from any source or they can deliver SKE courses Chemistry: Teachers themselves. All universities are able to offer SKE courses. The National College for Teaching and Leadership promotes these courses through its online SKE course Sir Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for directory and “Get into Teaching” website. The course Education if she will extend the provision of post-ITT directory includes 53 SKE courses in chemistry provided Subject Knowledge Enhancement courses for chemistry by 20 universities, including the university of Worcester. teachers. [207367] Officials are working with the Royal Society of Chemistry to promote chemistry SKE in the coming academic Mr Laws: For the past two years, the National College year. for Teaching and Leadership (NCTL) has funded a number of higher education institutions (HEIs) to deliver Children: Abuse post ITT subject knowledge enhancement (SKE) training to support schools to address workforce capacity challenges Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for in shortage subjects, traditionally secondary maths, physics, Education what steps her Department is taking in chemistry and modern foreign languages (MFL). The response to research in the NSPCC’s report, Returning programme has provided subject knowledge training to home from care. [208034] a level that would be required to achieve qualified teacher status (QTS) to qualified teachers who did not Mr Timpson: A robust assessment of the needs of a train in their SKE subject. child and their family and how these needs will be met The Department for Education’s vision is to work through ongoing support from the local authority is with schools to develop an education system in which crucial if children are to return home safely and successfully teacher and leadership training, continuous professional from care. Improving practice when children return development (CPD) and school-to-school support are home from care is a priority for the Government. delivered locally by partnerships led by the best head In September 2013, the Government published the teachers. We are encouraging schools to find local solutions ‘Improving Permanence for looked-after children’ data to their particular challenges and supporting teaching pack, which is published online: school alliances (TSAs) and system leaders to deliver innovative solutions to drive up standards. In line with www.gov.uk/government/publications/improving- permanence-for-looked-after-children-data-pack this vision, NCTL are no longer funding HEIs in 2014-15 and instead are running a test and learn project with 45 The data pack encourages local authorities to consider teaching school alliances. TSAs will be responsible for their own systems and processes for returning children designing and delivering post ITT SKE provision, focusing home and to improving their rate of success. on secondary maths, physics, chemistry, computing, In 2013 the Department consulted on a range of MFL and primary maths to meet their local/regional proposals to improve permanence for looked-after children. need. How they deliver the project and the subject they Department for Education officials have convened a 519W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 520W meeting of the relevant Expert Group on 9 September birth data and data on families with children under five to discuss these issues and the Government’s formal who have recently moved into the area) with children’s response will be published later this year. centres on a regular basis. The Government has commissioned the National EU Law Children’s Bureau (NCB) and the Centre for Child and Family Research (CCFR) at Loughborough University to deliver an action research project. The project is Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Education working with frontline practitioners and families to how many new EU directives and regulations have been support improved practice in returning children home. transposed into UK law by her Department since May 2010. [207257] This project is complemented by research we have commissioned from the NSPCC and the University of Bristol. Their approach is ‘top down’, working with Nick Boles: The Department for Education has not senior practitioners to implement a specific model of had responsibility for transposing into UK law any EU support for children returning home, developed and directives or regulations since May 2010. tested by NSPCC. This research will build on earlier Free School Meals work by NSPCC and includes a focus on implementation science, identifying savings and efficiencies, and developing a practice model that can be used by local authorities Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for without the need for specialist support from the NSPCC. Education if she will place in the Library all assessments her Department has conducted on the planning and Both of these research projects will report in 2015. implementation of providing free school meals to all infants; and if she will make a statement. [207301] Children: Protection Mr Laws: Evidence collected from local authorities Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and 14 multi-academy trusts between 11 August and what steps she is taking to ensure that children who 22 August 2014 suggested that 98.5% of schools would have been looked after because of abuse or neglect be providing hot meals from the start of term. We have receive appropriate support and monitoring to prevent published a statistical notice that provides further details further abuse when they return home. [207911] and is available at: www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-infant-free- Mr Timpson: A robust assessment of the needs of a school-meals-schools-offering-a-hot-meal child and their family and how these needs will be met A copy has also been placed in the House Library. through on-going support from the local authority is crucial if children are to return home safely and successfully GCE A-level from care. The Care Planning, Placement and Case Review (England) Regulations 2010 are clear that the Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for child’s care plan must provide details of the advice, Education how many students enrolled to study A2 assistance and support that the responsible authority levels in September 2013 in (a) school sixth forms, (b) intends to provide after the child has returned home. academy sixth forms, (c) sixth form colleges and (d) Page 19 of ‘Working Together to Safeguard Children 16 to 19 free schools. [207566] 2013’ sets out the principles and parameters of a good assessment. The guidance is published online at: Mr Laws: The information requested is not currently www.gov.uk/government/publications/working-together-to- available. Provisional information for students entered safeguard-children for A2 levels in the 2013/14 academic year will be Improving practice when children return home from available in October 2014. care is a priority for the Government. In 2013 we consulted on a range of proposals to improve permanence GCE AS-level for looked-after children. Department for Education officials have convened a meeting of the relevant Expert Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Group on 9 September to discuss these issues and the Education how many students enrolled to study AS Government’s formal response will be published later levels in September 2012 in (a) school sixth forms, (b) this year. academy sixth forms, (c) sixth form colleges and (d) 16 to 19 free schools. [207565] Children’s Centres Mr Laws: Information on the number of students who entered AS level qualifications in the 2012/13 academic Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Education year by school type is provided in the table. if she will review the adequacy of current statutory guidance on the sharing of live birth data with children’s Number of students1 aged 16 to 192 entered for GCE AS levels by institution type. Year: 2012/13 (Final). Coverage: England centres. [208025] Number of students entered for Institution type AS level qualifications Mr Gyimah: The Government has no plans to review the statutory guidance for children’s centres on the State-funded mainstream 226,081 sharing of live birth data. schools3 The Department for Education’s Sure Start children’s centres statutory guidance says that health services and All state-funded schools4 226,111 local authorities should share information (such as live Of which: 521W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 522W

Number of students1 aged 16 to 192 entered for GCE AS levels by Mr Laws: The information requested is not held by institution type. Year: 2012/13 (Final). Coverage: England the Department for Education. Number of students entered for Institution type AS level qualifications Mandarin: GCSE Local authority maintained 95,270 mainstream schools5 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Sponsored academies- 17,861 Education how many students in state schools secondary mainstream6 education obtained a GCSE in Mandarin Chinese in Converter academies- 112,082 each year since January 2011. [208111] mainstream6 City Technology Colleges 435 Mr Laws: It is not possible to identify pupils entered Mainstream free schools, 433 for Mandarin Chinese from the Department for Education’s university technical colleges data. However, the Department does hold information (UTCs) and studio schools7 on the number of entries into GCSE Chinese which State-funded special schools, 30 includes Mandarin Chinese and other Chinese subjects. hospital schools, pupil referral In the academic year 2010/11, there were 2,480 entries units (PRUs) and alternative provision (AP) free schools8 for GCSE Mandarin, 2,307 in the academic year 2011/12 and 2,346 in the academic year 2012/13. This information is published in the GCSE statistical first release (subject Independent schools 34,174 time series table) at: Of which: www.gov.uk/government/publications/gcse-and-equivalent- Independent schools 33,999 results-in-england-2012-to-2013-revised Independent special schools and 175 non-maintained special schools9 Science: Teachers

All schools10 260,285 Sir Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps she is taking to help schools FE sector colleges 118,492 provide subject-specific continuing professional development Of which: for science teachers. [207364] Sixth form colleges 77,780 Mr Laws: The Department for Education currently Other FE sector colleges11 40,712 supports curriculum-focused continuing professional development (CPD) for science teachers and technicians All schools and FE sector 378,777 through a contract with Myscience.co Ltd to manage colleges five regional science learning centres (RSLCs). The five 1 Covers students who were entered for at least one AS Level RSLCs additionally co-ordinate and quality assure up qualification in the 2012/13 academic year. to 10 local science learning partnerships (SLPs) each, 2 Covers students aged 16, 17 or 18 at the start of the 2012/13 academic year, ie 31 August 2012. which bring together teaching schools and other outstanding 3 Academies (sponsor and converter mainstream); community, schools, higher education institutions, independent schools, voluntary aided, voluntary controlled and foundation schools; city further education and sixth-form colleges and employers technology colleges (CTCs), free schools (mainstream, UTC, studio and industry experts to deliver CPD locally. school, 16-19). 4 Includes all state-funded mainstream schools plus community In addition, the Department provides funding to special, foundation special, community hospital and foundation Myscience.co Ltd to support the payment of impact hospital schools; PRUs; special academies; converter academy awards for science teachers and technicians who attend special schools; special free schools; and AP free schools. and undertake CPD run by the regional science learning 5 School sixth forms are defined as community, voluntary aided, centres and science learning partnerships. voluntary controlled and foundation schools with 16-19 year old students. The Department also funds the Triple Science Support 6 Academy sixth forms are defined as sponsored and converter Programme (TSSP), delivered by Myscience.co Ltd, to academies with 16-19 year old students. provide an extensive programme of practical support 7 In 2012/13, there were no students aged 16 to 19 in 16-19 free and guidance to schools on how to provide triple science schools only, however, this does include students from other types of free schools. at GCSE level. The TSSP focuses its support on schools 8 Community special, foundation special, community hospital and that do not currently offer triple science or that have few foundation hospital schools; PRUs; special academies; converter pupils taking triple science. academy special schools; special free schools; and AP free schools. The Department supports the improvement of science 9 Independent special schools, independent schools approved to take pupils with special educational needs (SEN) and non-maintained teaching through a joint arrangement with the Wellcome special schools. Trust and industry partners to fund CPD through 10 All state-funded schools and independent schools. scholarship awards called Enthuse Awards. Over five 11 Further education sector colleges; other government department years from August 2013 to July 2018, the Department funded colleges; and special colleges. will provide £10 million to schools to support teachers’ Source: 2012/13 Key Stage 5 attainment data (final) attendance at high quality science CPD training delivered by the National Science Learning Centre. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for The Stimulating Physics Network has also been set Education how many and what proportion of students up to provide support at regional level to increase who enrolled in September 2012 to study AS levels in a progression to A-level physics. This is funded by the (a) school sixth form, (b) academy sixth form, (c) Department and administered by the Institute of Physics. sixth form college and (d) 16 to 19 free school dropped The network provides two strands of support: universal out during the first year of their course. [207567] support for all schools, which offers programmes of 523W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 524W workshops, networking opportunities and other professional Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I development events though a team of physics network gave on 10 July 2014, Official Report, column 360W. co-ordinators; and developing intensive partnerships with selected schools provided through a team of teaching Energy and learning coaches who facilitate tailored programmes of CPD. Simon Kirby: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Special Educational Needs Office what steps he is taking to reduce energy costs in his Department; and if he will make a statement. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for [208335] Education pursuant to the answer of 1 July 2014, Official Report, column 551W,on disadvantaged pupils, Mr Maude: Information regarding my Department’s what research her Department has commissioned into energy consumption and meeting the cross-government the role of special educational needs co-ordinators in Greening Government Commitments (GGC) can be decisions on how to spend the Pupil Premium; and for found in the 2013-14 Annual Report at: what reason no guidance was issued to schools on this https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ matter. [208026] attachment_data/file/325326/ 41432_HC_Cabinet_Office_annual_report_2013_to_2014_print_ready.pdf Mr Timpson: The Department for Education has not commissioned any research to date specifically on the A copy of this publication is also available in the role of special educational needs coordinators (SENCOs) House of Commons Library. in decisions on how to spend the pupil premium, just as the Department does not advise schools in any general Government Departments: Cybercrime sense on how they should spend the pupil premium. This is because schools are best placed to understand Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and respond to the needs of their disadvantaged pupils, Office what assessment he has made of the number of and to develop their own processes for deciding pupil cyber-attacks on Government IT systems since January premium spending priorities. Schools will of course 2014. [208102] wish to involve SENCOs in reviewing the evidence on effective practice in raising the attainment of disadvantaged Mr Maude: We are now seeing around 100 sophisticated pupils with special educational needs, and use their attacks a month on UK Government or industry networks. findings to inform spending decisions. The Government has committed £860 million until 2016 to the transformative National Cyber Security Programme to bolster the UK’s cyber defences. The CABINET OFFICE National Cyber Security Strategy, published November Big Society Network 2011, sets out how the UK will support economic prosperity, protect national security and safeguard the Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet public’s way of life by building a more trusted and Office (1) under what criteria the Big Society Network resilient digital environment. was contracted to run the Giving summits; [208125] We do not comment on specific details of cyber (2) how much the Big Society Network has received security attacks on Government IT systems. for administering the Big Society Awards in each of the last three years; [208126] Government Departments: ICT (3) against what criteria the Big Society Network was awarded the contract for running the Big Society Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Awards; [208127] Office what guidance the Government Digital Service (4) how much has been given to the Big Society issues to department on minimum requirements for IT Network for the purpose of running the Giving summit systems reliability and availability. [208089] in each of the last three years. [208128] Mr Maude: The Government Service Design Manual Mr Newmark: Grants were awarded to Society Network provides guidance and advice on designing and building Foundation to deliver aspects for the Big Society Awards digital services. This covers both reliability and availability. and the Giving summit following consideration of proposals This is available at: put forward by Society Network Foundation. https://www.gov.uk/service-manual In 2012-13, £350,000 was paid to Society Network Foundation for the delivery of aspects of the Big Society Awards, £12,000 for delivering certain aspects of the Radiation Exposure Giving summit and promotion of the Big Society. In 2013-14, £150,000 was paid to Society Network Foundation Paul Flynn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office for delivery of aspects of the Big Society Awards. (1) what work the Horizon Scanning Programme has Domestic Visits undertaken on the implications for environmental security of (a) an accident at a nuclear facility involving a large Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet release of radiation and (b) the sabotage of a nuclear Office pursuant to the answer of 10 July 2014, Official facility or nuclear cargo in transit by a terrorist group; Report, column 359W,on domestic visits, what domestic [208053] visits he has made since January 2013; and what the (2) what issues are currently under examination by purpose of each such visit was. [208003] the Horizon Scanning Programme. [208051] 525W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 526W

Mr Letwin: The Horizon Scanning Programme has 1 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as investigated emerging technologies, emerging economies, an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality below. the changing supply and demand of resources, changing Guide to Quality: social attitudes of young people, and the future of The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, demographic change in the UK. The Programme continues the smaller the CV value, the higher the quality. The true value is to draw on observations from these areas alongside likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of exploring potential new areas of investigation, which 200 with a CV of 5%, we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. include the future of work, regulation and rural Key: communities. * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered The Horizon Scanning Programme has not examined precise ** 5 = CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered the implications for environmental security in regards reasonably precise to nuclear facilities and does not plan to do so in the *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered future. The risks posed in the question are however acceptable considered as part of the National Risk Assessment **** CV = 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered process. too unreliable for practical purposes CV = Coefficient of Variation Source: Annual Population Survey and Annual Labour Force Survey Unemployment: Older People

Stephen Timms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Office how many people over 50 years old in each region and constituent part of the UK have been unemployed for over 12 months. [208076] Brass Bands

Mr Newmark: The information requested falls within Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Media and Sport how many requests for funding have asked the authority to reply. been made to the Arts Council by brass bands in each of the last three years; and how many such requests Letter from Glen Watson, dated September 2014: were (a) accepted in full, (b) accepted in part and (c) As Director General for the Office for National Statistics rejected. [207353] (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary question asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many people over 50 years old in each region and constituent part of the UK have Mr Vaizey: A list of the eligible applications to the been unemployed for over 12 months (208076). Arts Council in the last three years in the sub-art form “Brass and Silver bands” will be placed in the Libraries The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles labour of both Houses. However, some activity for which brass market statistics for areas smaller than the UK from the Annual Population Survey (APS) following International Labour Organisation bands play a constituent part may not be included, as (ILO) definitions. the wider activity has not been classified specifically as such. Ineligible applications are not recorded by sub-art The table shows the number of people aged 50 years and over who had been unemployed for 12 months or more in each region form. and constituent part of the UK, according to survey responses from the APS for the 12 month period April 2013 to March 2014, Domestic Visits the latest available period. As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for to a certain level of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates of the levels is included in the table. Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 10 July 2014, Official Report, column 13W, on domestic National and local area estimates for many labour market visits, what domestic visits he and his predecessor has statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at: made since January 2013; and what the purpose of each such visit was. [208005] http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Number1 of people aged 50 or over unemployed for 12 months or more Mrs Grant: Details of Ministers’ visits are published Thousand quarterly and can be found at:

North East ***12 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dcms-meetings- and-hospitality-data-october-to-december-2013 North West ***21 Yorkshire and the Humber ***16 East Midlands ***13 EU Law West Midlands ***19 East of England ***12 Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for London ***24 Culture, Media and Sport how many new EU directives South East ***16 and regulations have been transposed into UK law by South West ***12 his Department since May 2010. [207255] Wales ***7 Scotland ***18 Mr Vaizey: Since January 2010, DCMS has transposed Northern Ireland ***7 four EU directives into UK law; and four EU regulations UK **176 have come into effect within our areas of responsibility. 527W Written Answers8 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 528W

National Anthems Mrs Grant: DCMS does not have any direct employees who are paid less than the rate defined by the Living Wage Foundation as a living wage. Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if he will bring forward DCMS is not responsible for setting pay levels for proposals for an English national anthem. [207647] contracted workers. This is a matter for the organisations who employ them. However, we actively encourage employers to ensure that the living wage is paid and we Mr Vaizey: There are no plans to recommend to Her would monitor these when contracts are being negotiated. Majesty the Queen that any change should be made to We do not hold central records for our arms lengths the UK national anthem, nor are there any plans to bodies. introduce an official English anthem. Television Pay Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much his Department Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for spent on the purchase of televisions in (a) 2013 and Culture, Media and Sport how many (a) direct employees, (b) 2014 to date. [207210] (b) outsourced workers and (c) agency workers in Executive agencies which report to his Department are Mrs Grant: The Department for Culture, Media and paid less than the living wage as defined by the Living Sport has not purchased any televisions in the periods Wage Foundation. [208011] stated. 529W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 530W

been employed, what support they need, the size of the Written Answers to employer and whether they are self-employed. The Department does not provide alternative financial Questions support for communication for deaf people who are in work. Where necessary, the Department can provide British Tuesday 9 September 2014 Sign Language interpreters and in some cases other non-spoken language interpreters to enable deaf people to communicate with our staff and to participate in job WORK AND PENSIONS interviews. Where it is appropriate and where they are able to do so, deaf people and people with hearing Apprentices impairments can utilise lip reading in face-to-face communications. The Department also provides induction Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for loops and text phones. Our staff can also communicate Work and Pensions what discussions he and Ministers by e-mail or through a representative, with the claimant’s in his Department have had with Ministers in the permission. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on the proposed reform of apprenticeships; what effect those Flexible Support Fund discussions will have on his Department’s projects and the work of their supply chain; and whether officials in Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department sit on programme boards managing the Work and Pensions how much has been spent on the reform. [208214] Flexible Support Fund in each region of the UK in each year since it was introduced. [208077] Mr Harper: The Secretary of State or his Ministers have not had any specific discussions with Ministers in Mr Harper: Expenditure on Flexible Support Fund the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (FSF) since it was introduced in each year is shown in solely about the proposed reform of apprenticeships. the following table. Neither are any of the Department’s officials sitting on programme boards managing the reform. £ million Employment: Hearing Impairment 2011-12 70.2 2012-13 125.0 Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013-14 106.2 Work and Pensions (1) what guidance his Department 2014-15 1— issues on the funding and allocation of support for 1 This information is not currently for release as the data is subject to deaf people in work; [207823] audit and change. (2) what financial support his Department provides The FSF expenditure is only captured at a national to deaf people in work while they await a decision on level, not across UK regions, this information is not their Access to Work budget; [207838] readily available and could be provided only at (3) what communication support his Department disproportionate cost. provides for deaf people who are (a) in work or (b) actively seeking work; [207839] Incapacity Benefit (4) what additional support his Department makes available for deaf people whose Access to Work Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work budgets do not cover the support they require to carry and Pensions what the recorded primary medical condition out their work. [207913] of incapacity benefits reassessment claimants, where the outcome of the assessment was Fit for Work, were Mr Harper: Access to Work provides practical and in each of the last three years; and if he will make a financial support with the additional costs faced by statement. [207639] individuals whose health or disability affects the way they do their job. The support provided is tailored to Mr Harper: The information requested on incapacity individuals needs and can include travel to work, support benefits reassessments is shown in the following table: workers, and specialist aids and equipment. Access to Work does not replace the duty an employer has under Number of incapacity benefits reassessments with a Fit for Work outcome split into International Classification of Diseases (2010) the Equality Act to make reasonable adjustments. Instead Condition Groups it provides support that is over and above that which is a Number reasonable adjustment. Access to Work can pay for Fit for communication support workers and British Sign Language Work (BSL) interpreters where these are required to enable Date Disabling condition groups decisions deaf people to work. Autumn 2010 Certain Infectious and Parasitic — Access to Work is delivered by Jobcentre Plus in (trial areas) Diseases accordance with Department for Work and Pensions Neoplasms — Access to Work guidance. The amount of help an Diseases of the Blood and Blood — individual may receive from Access to Work depends on forming organs and certain their individual needs and personal circumstances. The diseases involving the immune award will also vary depending on how long they have mechanism 531W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 532W

Number of incapacity benefits reassessments with a Fit for Work Number of incapacity benefits reassessments with a Fit for Work outcome split into International Classification of Diseases (2010) outcome split into International Classification of Diseases (2010) Condition Groups Condition Groups Number Number Fit for Fit for Work Work Date Disabling condition groups decisions Date Disabling condition groups decisions

Endocrine, Nutritional and — Pregnancy, Childbirth and the 100 Metabolic Diseases Puerperium Mental and Behavioural Disorders 200 Certain conditions originating in — Diseases of the Nervous System — the perinatal period Congenital Malformations, — Diseases of the Eye and Adnexa — Deformations and Chromosomal Diseases of the Ear and Mastoid — Abnormalities Process Symptoms, Signs and Abnormal 6,700 Diseases of the Circulatory — Clinical and Laboratory findings, System not elsewhere classified Diseases of the Respiratory — Injury, Poisoning and certain 4,000 System other consequences of external Diseases of the Digestive System — causes Factors influencing health status 500 Diseases of the Skin and — and contact with health services Subcutaneous System Not recorded — Diseases of the Musculoskeletal 100 system and Connective Tissue Total 62,900 Diseases of the Genitourinary — System October 2011 to Certain Infectious and Parasitic 700 Pregnancy, Childbirth and the — September 2012 Diseases Puerperium Neoplasms 900 Certain conditions originating in — the perinatal period Diseases of the Blood and Blood 200 Congenital Malformations, — forming organs and certain Deformations and Chromosomal diseases involving the immune Abnormalities mechanism Symptoms, Signs and Abnormal — Endocrine, Nutritional and 1,400 Clinical and Laboratory findings, Metabolic Diseases not elsewhere classified Mental and Behavioural Disorders 56,400 Injury, Poisoning and certain — Diseases of the Nervous System 3,800 other consequences of external causes Diseases of the Eye and Adnexa 300 Factors influencing health status — Diseases of the Ear and Mastoid 400 and contact with health services Process Not recorded — Diseases of the Circulatory 3,700 Total 400 System Diseases of the Respiratory 1,500 System March2011to Certain Infectious and Parasitic 400 Diseases of the Digestive System 1,800 September 2011 Diseases Neoplasms 500 Diseases of the Skin and 800 Subcutaneous System Diseases of the Blood and Blood 100 Diseases of the Musculoskeletal 26,300 forming organs and certain system and Connective Tissue diseases involving the immune mechanism Diseases of the Genitourinary 700 System Endocrine, Nutritional and 700 Metabolic Diseases Pregnancy, Childbirth and the 100 Puerperium Mental and Behavioural Disorders 30,000 Certain conditions originating in — Diseases of the Nervous System 2,000 the perinatal period Diseases of the Eye and Adnexa 200 Congenital Malformations, — Diseases of the Ear and Mastoid 200 Deformations and Chromosomal Process Abnormalities Diseases of the Circulatory 2,000 Symptoms, Signs and Abnormal 13,200 System Clinical and Laboratory findings, not elsewhere classified Diseases of the Respiratory 800 System Injury, Poisoning and certain 8,000 other consequences of external Diseases of the Digestive System 900 causes Diseases of the Skin and 400 Factors influencing health status 1,000 Subcutaneous System and contact with health services Diseases of the Musculoskeletal 13,000 Not recorded — system and Connective Tissue Total 121,400 Diseases of the Genitourinary 400 System 533W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 534W

Number of incapacity benefits reassessments with a Fit for Work Independent Living Fund outcome split into International Classification of Diseases (2010) Condition Groups Number Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Fit for and Pensions if he will take steps to retain the Independent Work Living Fund and continue access for new claimants. Date Disabling condition groups decisions [207893]

October 2012 to Certain Infectious and Parasitic 500 September 2013 Diseases Mr Harper: On 6 March 2014 the Government Neoplasms 600 announced that the Independent Living Fund (ILF) would close in June 2015 with responsibility and funding Diseases of the Blood and Blood 100 transferred to local authorities in England and the forming organs and certain diseases involving the immune devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales. Funding mechanism for Northern Ireland is already a matter for the Northern Endocrine, Nutritional and 800 Ireland administration which is currently consulting on Metabolic Diseases the best way to support users living there. The ILF has Mental and Behavioural Disorders 24,900 been closed to new applications since 2010. Diseases of the Nervous System 2,200 Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Diseases of the Eye and Adnexa 300 and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Diseases of the Ear and Mastoid 300 performance of the Independent Living Fund. [207894] Process Diseases of the Circulatory 2,200 System Mr Harper: There is a legislative requirement for the Independent Living Fund Annual Report and Accounts Diseases of the Respiratory 900 System to be laid by the Secretary of State before Parliament each year. The report is published on GOV.UK: Diseases of the Digestive System 1,000 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent- Diseases of the Skin and 500 living-fund-annual-report-and-accounts-2013-to-2014 Subcutaneous System Diseases of the Musculoskeletal 16,600 system and Connective Tissue Diseases of the Genitourinary 400 Jobcentre Plus System Pregnancy, Childbirth and the 100 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Puerperium Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has made Certain conditions originating in — of the security of staff at Jobcentre Plus offices. [208359] the perinatal period Congenital Malformations, — Steve Webb: The Department keeps security Deformations and Chromosomal Abnormalities arrangements under constant review, amending these in Symptoms, Signs and Abnormal 7,700 the light of prevailing circumstances, and taking account Clinical and Laboratory findings, of advice from the relevant security authorities. Beyond not elsewhere classified this, for obvious reasons, it would not be appropriate to Injury, Poisoning and certain 4,800 comment further. other consequences of external causes Factors influencing health status 700 New Enterprise Allowance and contact with health services Not recorded — Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 64,700 Work and Pensions how many businesses have been Notes: created with help from the New Enterprise Allowance; 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. “—“denotes nil or under and how many of those businesses have sustained operations 50. Totals may not sum due to the rounding method used. [208044] 2. Disabling condition groups are based on the International Classification for more than 52 weeks. of Diseases (2010). 3. Data is given up to 30 September 2013, which is the latest data Mr Harper [holding answer 8 September 2014]: Latest available. statistics show that since the launch of New Enterprise 4. The outcome recorded is the final DWP decision maker’s decision or the recommendation made by the Atos Healthcare professional Allowance (NEA) in 2011 to the end of March 2014, where the decision maker’s decision is not yet available. there were 46,000 NEA weekly allowance claims. The 5. The data presented above comes from benefit claims data held by weekly allowance is payable when the participant closes the Department for Work and Pensions. In October 2008, ESA their claim to benefits and commences trading which is replaced IB for new claims. Starting with a trial in October 2010, and a proxy measure for business starts created by the reaching a full scale national roll-out in April 2011, existing IB claims scheme. began to be phased out, with claimants reassessed to see if they qualify for ESA instead. We do not have data on the numbers of NEA businesses 6. The reassessment of existing incapacity benefits claimants was trading for 52 weeks. However, an analysis of the benefit rolled out nationally from April 2011 and therefore a full three years status of NEA participants, published in 2013, highlighted worth of data cannot be provided. Source: that of 3,000 people who took part in the scheme in the Data in the table above is derived from administrative data held by the first year, 78% had remained off benefit continuously DWP and assessment data provided by Atos Healthcare. for 52 weeks after claiming the NEA weekly allowance. 535W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 536W

Personal Independence Payment Number of adverse benefit sanctions applied in Denton and Reddish parliamentary constituency, Tameside local authority, Stockport local authority by referral reason Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Work April 2011 to April 2013 to March and Pensions when a decision will be made on the March 2012 2014 application made in November 2013 by Mrs Staltmeier of Christchurch for a personal independence payment. Failure to participate in 10 110 [208252] work-related activity Refusal of employment 60 30 Mr Harper: The Department cannot respond to the House of Commons with regards to a specific case. I will write to my hon. Friend. Stockport Poverty Truth Commission Failure to attend a 1,080 800 mandatory interview Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Non-compliance with a 20 70 Work and Pensions what discussions his Department jobseeker’s direction has had with the Poverty Truth Commission. [208356] Not actively seeking 430 920 employment Mr Harper: Ministers and officials continuously engage Failure to participate in 10 280 with a wide range of organisations to help shape and work-related activity inform policies. Refusal of employment 150 20 Checking whether any member of staff from across the Department for Work and Pensions has held any discussions with the Poverty Truth Commission would Tameside involve disproportionate cost. Failure to attend a 1,240 1,110 Social Security Benefits mandatory interview Non-compliance with a 150 60 jobseeker’s direction Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Not actively seeking 530 1,790 effectiveness of the current level of the benefit cap; and employment if he will make a statement. [208147] Failure to participate in 10 280 work-related activity Steve Webb: I refer the hon. Member to the written Refusal of employment 250 80 answer given by the Minister for Employment which Notes: was provided to the hon. Member for North West 1. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), on 1 September 2014, 2. Data provided is up to March 2014 which is the latest available. Official Report, column 41W. 3. The number of benefit sanctions applied is the number of sanction or disallowance referrals where the decision was found Social Security Benefits: Greater Manchester against the claimant for those in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance (JSA), employment and support allowance (ESA) in the work- related activity group, or income support (lone parents). Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for 4. The following reasons for referral apply to JSA only: not actively Work and Pensions how many benefit sanctions on the seeking employment; refusal of employment; non-compliance with a grounds of (a) not actively seeking employment, (b) jobseeker’s direction. refusal of employment, (c) failure to attend a mandatory 5. Refusal of employment is defined as follows: refusal or failure to apply for, or accept if offered, a job which an employment officer interview, (d) failure to participate in work-related has informed him/her is vacant or about to become vacant without activity and (e) non-compliance with a jobseeker’s good reason. direction were received by claimants in (i) Denton and 6. Failure to attend a mandatory interview includes: failure to attend Reddish constituency, (ii) Tameside local authority and a mandatory interview for ESA claimants, failure to attend/ (iii) Stockport local authority between (A) April 2011 participate in a work focused interview for ISLP claimants and failure to attend an adviser interview for JSA claimants. and March 2012 and (B) April 2013 and March 2014. 7. Failure to participate in work-related activity applies to ESA [207769] claimants in the work-related activity group only. 8. New sanctions rules came into force for JSA from 22 October Mr Harper: The available information as requested is 2012 and for ESA from 3 December 2012. The number of JSA shown in the table below. sanctions applied for the new regime is the number of low, intermediate and high level referrals where the decision was found Number of adverse benefit sanctions applied in Denton and Reddish against the claimant. Further information can be found at: parliamentary constituency, Tameside local authority, Stockport local https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jobseekers-allowance- authority by referral reason overview-of-sanctions-rules April 2011 to April 2013 to March 9. New regulations for ISLP claimants came into force on 28 April March 2012 2014 2014. An explanation of the full regulations is provided below and can be Denton and Reddish found at: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1097/contents/made Failure to attend a 390 410 10. This information for JSA and ESA sanctions is published at: mandatory interview https://stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk/ Non-compliance with a 30 20 Sources: jobseeker’s direction 1. (JSA and ESA): DWP Statistical Services: Sanctions and Not actively seeking 160 520 Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database. employment 2. (IS): Income Support Computer System. 537W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 538W

Number of adverse benefit sanctions applied in Denton and Reddish accessible ways, including information about preferred parliamentary constituency, Tameside local authority, Stockport local authority by referral reason means of communication and sending information in April 2011 to April 2013 to the formats requested by deafblind claimants. [207976] March 2012 March 2014 Mr Harper: DWP provides support to all claimants Denton and Reddish and customers who have specific communication needs Failure to attend a mandatory 390 410 in order to allow them full access to our services. DWP interview can provide British Sign Language (BSL) interpreters Non-compliance with a 30 20 jobseeker’s direction or other communicator support, which includes Deafblind Not actively seeking 160 520 Communicators, to customers or claimants who are employment deaf, hard of hearing or speech impaired. The Department’s Failure to participate in work- 10 110 staff also undertake diversity and equality learning to related activity raise awareness and help them understand the issues Refusal of employment 60 30 faced by disabled claimants, including those who are deaf or hearing impaired, and provide individual support Stockport as required. Failure to attend a mandatory 1,080 800 Requests for information to be provided in an alternative interview format are tailored to the personal needs of the individual Non-compliance with a 20 70 and will depend on which benefit is being claimed or jobseeker’s direction which service is being used. The support offered by Not actively seeking 430 920 employment DWP includes a variety of communication methods: Failure to participate in work- 10 280 face to face contact on our premises; home visits; telephony; related activity online services; and written communications in alternative Refusal of employment 150 20 formats such as Braille. DWP staff can also communicate by e-mail or through a claimant’s representative or Tameside intermediary. A request for an alternative format from an individual will be detailed on the customer’s record Failure to attend a mandatory 1,240 1,110 interview of the appropriate benefit system to ensure requests are Non-compliance with a 150 60 carried out. jobseeker’s direction This Department is committed to continuously improving Not actively seeking 530 1,790 claimant access to benefits and services. DWP officials employment are currently reviewing the processes we have in place Failure to participate in work- 10 280 related activity for providing information in alternative formats to see Refusal of employment 250 80 what improvements can be made. Notes: 1. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Training 2. Data provided is up to March 2014 which is the latest available. 3. The number of benefit sanctions applied is the number of sanction or disallowance referrals where the decision was found against the claimant for Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for those in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance (JSA), employment and support Work and Pensions how much was spent per head on allowance (ESA) in the work-related activity group, or income support (lone training staff of his Department in (a) 2010-11, (b) parents). [208357] 4. The following reasons for referral apply to JSA only: not actively seeking 2011-12, (c) 2012-13 and (d) 2013-14. employment; refusal of employment; non-compliance with a jobseeker’s direction. Steve Webb: The Department is fully committed to 5. Refusal of employment is defined as follows: refusal or failure to apply for, the development of its staff by investing in learning to or accept if offered, a job which an employment officer has informed him/her is vacant or about to become vacant without good reason. create a highly skilled, motivated and flexible workforce. 6. Failure to attend a mandatory interview includes: failure to attend a The Department fully supports the Civil Service Reform mandatory interview for ESA claimants, failure to attend/participate in a work Plan commitment to provide at least five days a year focused interview for ISLP claimants and failure to attend an adviser interview for JSA claimants. investment in learning and development for all Civil 7. Failure to participate in work-related activity applies to ESA claimants in Servants. Further learning activity has been generated the work-related activity group only. by the DWP Annual Skills Review, the development of 8. New sanctions rules came into force for JSA from 22 October 2012 and for ESA from 3 December 2012. The number of JSA sanctions applied for the a departmental Capability Plan and an increased training new regime is the number of low, intermediate and high level referrals where requirement necessary to support the DWP Welfare the decision was found against the claimant. Further information can be found at: Reform agenda. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jobseekers-allowance-overview- The Departmental spend per head is shown below of-sanctions-rules 9. New regulations for ISLP claimants came into force on 28 April 2014. and has been calculated by dividing the total annual An explanation of the full regulations is provided below and can be found at: spend for DWP by the staff in post figure for the years http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1097/contents/made in question. 10. This information for JSA and ESA sanctions is published at: https://stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk/ (a) 2010-11—£110.40 Sources: (b) 2011-12—£85.27 1. (JSA and ESA): DWP Statistical Services: Sanctions and Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database. (c) 2012-13—£58.80 2. (IS): Income Support Computer System. (d) 2013-14—£91.32 Telecommunications: Disability Welfare State: Northern Ireland

Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State and Pensions what steps his Department has taken to for Work and Pensions on how many occasions his ensure that it communicates with deafblind people in Department has had discussions with the Social 539W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 540W

Development Department in Northern Ireland on the Work Capability Assessments implementation of the welfare reforms in Northern Ireland. [208058] Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what process is in place for the Mr Harper: Northern Ireland is responsible for its transition from Atos to another provider for work own social security, pensions and child support systems. capability assessments; how will this be communicated Therefore, the enactment and implementation of the to employment and support allowance claimants; and welfare reforms in Northern Ireland is a matter for the if he will make a statement. [207649] Northern Ireland Executive. However, I can confirm that my officials and I continue to work closely with the Mr Harper: The Department will work very closely Social Development Department. with the new provider and Atos during the transition period to ensure a smooth and effective handover of services, including the staff and infrastructure that will Welfare State: Reform move from Atos to the new provider. The process for claimants will remain the same during the transition and so claimants should continue to attend their Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State assessments. We are considering the communications to for Work and Pensions what progress has been made claimants as part of the transition plan. in the implementation of his overall welfare reforms in the last six months; and what progress he expects to be made in the next six months. [207879] TREASURY Mr Harper [holding answer 5 September 2014]: This Business: Taxation Government has made significant progress in implementing the most far-reaching programme of welfare reforms Jim Shannon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a generation. We have how many small and medium-sized businesses have Launched Universal Credit, the biggest change to the welfare been subject to an HM Revenue and Customs tax system in a generation, in April 2013. Currently operating in 38 review in each of the last three years; and in how many areas. It will be available in 90—or one in eight—of the country’s cases such a review has revealed significant errors in the jobcentres by the end of the year. accounts of such a business. [207832] Rolled out the household ‘Benefit Cap’, which ensures families do not receive more benefits than the average family earns. In Mr Gauke: The information requested is not centrally total, more than 42,000 households had their benefits capped by held and could be provided only at disproportionate March 2014. Almost 6,000 households who have had their benefits capped have moved into work. The policy is expected to save cost. £110 million in 2014/15. HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) do not use the Returned fairness to housing benefit by ‘stopping paying housing term ‘tax review’ as such our management information benefit for spare rooms’. The policy is already saving taxpayers systems do not record this information. Compliance over £1 million a day. interventions in respect of Small and Medium Enterprises ‘Auto enrolled 3.6 million people into a workplace pension’—saving are carried out across a range of HMRC Directorates for the first time or saving more for retirement. and can relate to any tax regime. Launched the ‘Child Maintenance Service’ to replace the failing HMRC do not use the term ‘significant error’ as such Child Support Agency, introducing it first in December 2012 for our management information systems do not record parents of four or more children, in July 2013 for parents of two this information. or more children, and since November 2013 to all separated parents. Jim Shannon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Brought how claimants find work into the 21st century by how many HM Revenue and Customs tax reviews of launching ‘Universal Jobmatch’, rather than just leaving jobseekers large companies have revealed instances of significant to manage with old-fashioned job boards and vacancy printouts. evasion in each of the last three years. [207833] Implemented the ‘Work Programme’—the biggest single payment by results employment programme Britain has ever seen—which Mr Gauke: HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) is has helped around 300,000 long-term unemployed off benefits active in assessing and tackling the risks of evasion, and into sustained work—more than previous schemes. avoidance and error among large businesses. HMRC’s Introduced the ‘Claimant Commitment’ in all British jobcentres, Large Business directorate supports work to tackle spelling out what we expect from jobseekers when they search for fraud within supply chains, as well as monitoring the work, resetting the relationship between benefit claimants and behaviour of large businesses themselves. Jobcentre Plus help. Precise numbers giving the information in the form Started the phased introduction of ‘Personal Independence requested is not centrally held and could be provided Payment’ on time and on budget in April last year. only at disproportionate cost. Rolled out the biggest ever campaign to help disabled people into work—‘Disability Confident’—breaking down barriers and Child Benefit boosting employers confidence and dispelling myths. We are implementing these major reforms in a careful Richard Burden: To ask the Chancellor of the and gradual way, testing and learning as we move Exchequer what the saving to the public purse will be forward. This is the right approach. All this while we from the removal of child benefit for households where have cut DWP costs by £2 billion a year compared to one parent earns £50,000; and what estimate he has 2009-10. In total, our welfare reforms are set to save made of the increase in administration costs arising £50 billion over this Parliament. from such a policy. [207461] 541W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 542W

Mr Gauke: The estimated annual fiscal saving as a Andrea Leadsom: National Savings and Investments result of the high income child benefit charge has been employ 165 people, of whom eight work in Scotland. published by HM Treasury and the Office for Budget National Savings and Investment’s (NS&I) operational Responsibility at fiscal events. services are provided by Atos, with 1,528 FTE (Full The administrative costs of the high income child Time Equivalent) people employed across the UK as of benefit charge were included in the National Audit 13 August. Of these, 1,074 FTE are permanent staff, Office 20/12-13 HMRC Standard Report: 430 FTE are agency staff (varied on demand) and 24 http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/10174- FTE are IT contractors from SOPRA. At present NS&I 001_HMRC_Standard-report.pdf and Atos work at one office in Scotland at Cowglen (Constituency: Glasgow South) but will be moving to two new offices: Capella (Constituency: Glasgow Central) Listed Buildings: VAT and Orbital (Constituencies: East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) in the near future. Dr Offord: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The building at Cowglen is much larger than the what estimate his Department has made of the money current headcount of staff requires according to accrued to the public purse through VAT paid on the Government space standards. Our two new sites will repair and maintenance of protected buildings. [207896] provide for the anticipated future needs of NS&I operations in Glasgow. Mr Gauke: No estimate has been made. Data is not available on the VAT paid on repairs and maintenance With the introduction of the ‘Savings bonds for the to protected buildings as this is not itemised separately 65s and over’ in January 2015 there will be a temporary on VAT returns. increase in the number of staff to handle peak demand. Exact numbers are yet to be finalised and are still under Dr Offord: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer discussion but some of these will be based in Glasgow what estimate his Department has made of the money Capella and Orbital. accrued to the public purse through VAT paid on The headcount and geographical breakdown as of approved alterations to protected buildings in each of 13 August 2014 is as follows: the last five years. [207897] Staff (all numbers Full Time Equivalent) Mr Gauke: Data is not available on the VAT paid on Scotland, by constituency approved alterations to protected buildings as this is not Cowglen Capella Orbital (East itemised separately on VAT returns. (Glasgow (Glasgow Kilbride, Strathaven South) Central) near and Lesmahagow) UK current future near future Mobile Phones NS&I 165 8 8 0 Stephen Barclay: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to the statement by the Chief Secretary Atos 11,074 1471 1340 1131 to the Treasury, reported in The Sunday Times on 31 August 2014, what provision will be made in the 2430 2188 2168 221 autumn statement 2014 to double the funding for tackling 324 — — — mobile blackspots; and what criteria will be used to 1 Permanent decide which locations will benefit from that funding. 2 Agency [208163] 3 Contractors (SOPRA)

Danny Alexander: The Government is taking action Objects in Lieu of Tax to improve mobile coverage across the UK. For example, the Mobile Infrastructure Project, first announced in October 2011, provides £150 million for the building of Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the additional mobile phone masts to provide coverage in Exchequer what the total value of works of art accepted areas which are poorly served. in lieu of inheritance tax was in each of the last five The Chancellor has announced that autumn statement years. [207429] this year will be on 3 December. Full details of autumn statement announcements will be announced at that Mr Vaizey: As the Minister of State for Culture and time. the Digital Economy I have been asked to reply. The total value of items accepted under the Acceptance- National Savings and Investments in-Lieu Scheme for the last five years is as follows:

Mr Davidson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer £ million (1) how many people are employed in (a) the UK, (b) 2009 19.8 Scotland and (c) each Scottish parliamentary constituency 2010 15.7 by sub-contractors or agencies working on behalf of 2011 8.3 National Savings and Investments; [206752] 2012 31.3 (2) how many people are employed by National 2013 149.4 Savings and Investments in (a) the UK, (b) Scotland 1 Includes the first item accepted under the Cultural Gifts Scheme and (c) each Scottish parliamentary constituency. which operates from the same budget as the Acceptance-in-Lieu [206753] Scheme. 543W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 544W

Oil: Excise Duties The Government is confident that both the project and the infrastructure provider will be classified to the Simon Hart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer private sector, and will not impact the public balance (1) how much has been disbursed to oil supply companies sheet. for the repayment of duty on petrol subject to vapour recovery since January 2013; [207842] (2) how many Excise Payment Security Systems have HEALTH been approved for retail petrol filling stations in 2014; [207843] Aspirin (3) whether the Excise Payment Security System has been approved for use by individual retail petrol filling Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for stations; and if he will make a statement. [207850] Health what discussions he has had with professional medical bodies on the implications for the NHS of Priti Patel: Oil companies account for the repayment research on the effects of taking aspirin on the of duty on petrol subject to the vapour recovery process likelihood of heart attacks. [207836] in their monthly duty return, so there is no disbursement by HMRC to these companies. Jane Ellison: There have been no discussions between Eligibility for the Excise Payment Security System the Secretary of State for Health and professional medical does not apply to or exclude particular sectors; criteria bodies regarding the implications for the National Health are published by HMRC, and apply to all applicants. I Service of research on the effects of taking aspirin on can confirm that EPSS approval has been granted to the likelihood of heart attacks. petrol retailers in 2014. In England, the current consensus is that low dose aspirin is not recommended purely for primary prevention Thames Tideway Tunnel of cardiovascular disease.

Dialysis Machines Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the full burden of (a) demand, (b) construction and (c) availability risk for the Thames Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Tideway Tunnel project has been transferred from the what assessment he has made of the effect that proposed Government to Thames Tideway Tunnel Limited; and changes to tariffs for Renal Dialysis in Monitor’s 2015/16 what the effect of each such transfer has been on the National Tariff Payments System: Engagement on national UK national balance sheet under the guidance given in prices consultation would have on health outcomes for ESA 95 Manual Chapters VI.4 and VI.5. [208368] kidney patients. [207813]

Danny Alexander: The Thames Tideway Tunnel is a Jane Ellison: In July 2014, Monitor and NHS England private sector project. The Government has never been published the 2015/16 NHS National Tariff Payment responsible for ‘the full burden’ of the project referred System 2015/16: Engagement documents, and subsequently to in the question. Until 5 June, Thames Water Utilities began a process of engagement with the sector on draft Ltd had full responsibility for the project. proposals. Draft national prices were also published, seeking feedback from relevant stakeholders. On 5 June, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs tabled a Written Ministerial Monitor and NHS England are currently reviewing Statement informing the House that the Government the feedback received for the draft relative prices and had Specified the Thames Tideway Tunnel project, in carrying out further discussions about kidney dialysis accordance with the Water Industry (Specified with stakeholders including patient representative groups Infrastructure Projects) (English Undertakers) Regulations such as the National Kidney Federation. Monitor and 2013. He also issued a Preparatory Work Notice for NHS England are also seeking views from the sector via Thames Water Utilities Ltd requiring or permitting it to the National Tariff Advisory Group regarding the proposed do certain preparatory work in relation to the Tunnel prices. project. Under section 118 of the Health and Social Care Act The full statement is available here: 2012, Monitor is required to consult on the methodology used when deciding and setting national prices for http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/ National Health Service commissioned health care services. cmhansrd/cm140605/wmstext/ 140605m0001.htm#14060532000008 Monitor is also obliged to assess the expected financial impact on trusts of the draft proposals in accordance The full notices issued on 5 June, together with the with section 69 of the 2012 Act. The Consultation reasons for exercising these powers are available here: Notice (section 118) is expected to be published in https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thames-tideway- late-October along with a full financial impact assessment. tunnel-project-specification-and-preparatory-work-notices The consultation period will be 28 days to allow for the Specifying the project means that, other than those sector, including patient groups, to respond. works described in the Preparatory Work Notice, Thames Water Utilities Ltd is prevented from undertaking the Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health infrastructure project and is instead required to put it what discussions he has had with patients’ groups on out to tender, by running a competitive procurement for changes to tariffs for Renal Dialysis in Monitor’s 2015/16 an infrastructure provider which will finance and deliver National Tariff Payments System: Engagement on national the Tunnel that is separate from Thames Water. prices consultation. [207814] 545W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 546W

Jane Ellison: As part of Monitor’s and NHS England’s Food: Crime engagement plan for the Tariff Payments System: Engagement on national prices consultation, Monitor Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health spoke to patient representative groups and charity pursuant to the written statement of 4 September 2014, representative groups, including the National Kidney on the Elliott Review, when the Food Crime Unit will Federation, British Kidney Association, Polycystic Kidney be operational. [208360] Disease Charity and the Renal Association. Monitor has since arranged follow up discussions with these Jane Ellison: The Food Standards Agency advises patient groups to discuss their feedback. that the Food Crime Unit will be operational and the first phase will incorporate a well-developed intelligence The consultation process is designed to enable Monitor capability by the end of 2014. and NHS England to review the draft prices, suggested within the consultation, in light of feedback received. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Monitor will continue to be in contact with these specialist pursuant to the written statement of 4 September 2014, renal groups prior to the publication of the final national on the Elliott Review, how many staff at each grade will prices, due October 2014, which will vary from the draft be (a) recruited and (b) seconded to the Food Crime relative prices published in July 2014. Unit. [208362] Jane Ellison: The Food Standards Agency advises Disease Control that it has already reorganised existing teams that deal with food incidents, fraud and intelligence to form the Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for core of the new unit and is recruiting a small number of Health what steps he is taking to ensure that the additional permanent and seconded staff to support decrease in incidence of (a) HIV, (b) tuberculosis and this. This is likely to include seconded police officers (c) malaria continues. [207835] and other experts, as appropriate. The exact mix of background and skills has not been finalised. Jane Ellison: The Public Health Outcome Framework Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health includes an indicator on reducing late human pursuant to the written statement of 4 September 2014, immunodeficiency virus (HIV) diagnosis which promotes on Elliott Review, how many police officers will work in access to testing. The Department funds the Terrence the Food Crime Unit. [208364] Higgins Trust to deliver the HIV Prevention England programme and this targets gay men and African Jane Ellison: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) communities who are at greatest risk of acquiring HIV. advises that the Food Crime Unit is likely to include Following a period of multi-stakeholder consultation, seconded police officers and other experts, as appropriate. Public Health England (PHE) and NHS England are The exact mix of background and skills has not been jointly launching the Collaborative Tuberculosis Strategy finalised. In addition to officers working within the for England, 2015 to 2020 in September 2014. This Unit, the FSA will continue to work with an extensive strategy brings together best practice in clinical care, network of law enforcement partners (including the social support and public health to strengthen tuberculosis police and Local Authorities) to access and draw on (TB) control, leading to halving of TB incidence by intelligence to task investigations and to build links 2025, to reduce health inequalities, and ultimately eliminate internationally. TB as a public health problem in England. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Reducing the incidence of reported malaria in the pursuant to the written statement of 4 September 2014, UK relies on improving the uptake of preventive measures on Elliott Review, what budget the Food Crime Unit by at risk travellers. To support this, the PHE Advisory will be allocated for (a) setting up and (b) operating in Committee for Malaria Prevention in Travellers (ACMP) financial years (i) 2014-15 and (ii) 2015-16. [208365] produces annual national guidelines for malaria prevention in travellers from the UK which is available on the PHE Jane Ellison: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) website at: advises that the set up and operating costs will be www.gov.uk/government/publications/malaria-prevention- resourced from the FSA’s operating budget. The FSA guidelines-for-travellers-from-the-uk has committed to a review of likely future needs after These guidelines form the basis for malaria prevention two years. The Elliott report estimates that the Food advice given to health professionals advising travellers Crime Unit will cost between £2-4 million per year. It is by the PHE-commissioned National Travel Health Network too early to predict exact costs at this stage. and Centre (NaTHNaC) and the PHE Malaria Reference General Dental Council Laboratory. A PHE malaria advice leaflet is also available for patients, in English and four south Asian languages Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for at: Health pursuant to the answer of 2 September 2014, www.gov.uk/government/publications/malaria-information- Official Report, on the General Dental Council, if (a) for-people-travelling-overseas his Department and (b) the Professional Standards The largest proportion of malaria cases reported in Authority For Health and Social Care will publish its the UK is in at-risk ethnic groups resident in London. review of the business case for the increase in years The PHE London Malaria Group is working with local charged by the General Dental Council; and if similar community groups to increase their awareness of the reviews will be published of the Care Quality risk of malaria and of the need to protect their health Commission increase in fees to dental professionals. [R] on visits to affected countries. [208258] 547W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 548W

Dr Poulter: The business case referred to in the answer Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Health given on 2 September 2014, Official Report, column when his Department will publish the results of the GP 203W,is the General Dental Council’s (GDC) consultation patient survey conducted on behalf of NHS England document setting out the GDC’s rationale for the proposed by Ipsos MORI. [208255] fee rise. The consultation closed on 4 September 2014 and the document is available at: Dr Poulter: The latest GP Patient Survey (GPPS) www.gdc-uk.org/GDCcalendar/Consultations/Pages/ results were published on 3 July 2014 and can be found Consultation-on-the-Annual-Retention-Fee-(ARF)-Level-for- on the GPPS website: 2015.aspx https://gp-patient.co.uk/ The GDC is an independent body and therefore The data included in the July publication was collected neither the Department nor The Professional Standards in two waves during July to September 2013 and January Authority for Health and Social Care as a formal role in to March 2014. reviewing the GDC’s case. However, in my role as Parliamentary Under Secretary for Health, on 3 September Health Professions: Training 2014 I met with the GDC where this issue was discussed. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Each year the Care Quality Commission (CQC) consults Health what assessment his Department has made of on its proposed fee structure for the following year. The the efficacy of Return to Practice courses by healthcare CQC intends to publish a consultation on its proposed providers to address workforce supply needs and fee structure for 2015-16 and draft impact assessment in alleviate the need for the recruitment of health the next month. The final impact assessment will be professional staff from overseas. [207816] published in 2015. These documents will be available on the CQC’s website. Following consultation, the CQC Dr Poulter: Working in concert with National Health will present its proposals to my Rt. Hon. Friend the Service healthcare providers, Health Education England Secretary of State for Health. (HEE) is leading a programme of work to encourage nurses to return to practice. This work includes ensuring General Practitioners that the education programmes being commissioned are effective and meet the needs of patients and the Mr Love: To ask the Secretary of State for Health NHS. All programmes are validated by the Nursing and how many GP practices (a) closed and (b) opened in Midwifery Council. In addition, HEE has developed a (i) England, (ii) Greater London and (iii) Enfield in checklist of the elements required for an effective each of the last five years; and if he will make a programme. Local Education Training Boards are working statement. [207684] with Universities to review their programmes against this checklist. Dr Poulter: The Health and Social Care Information Centre collect information on the number of practices Health Services opened and closed, which is contained in the following table. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health It is important to note that these figures also include what steps his Department has taken to make stakeholders practice mergers and takeovers and do not provide an aware of its 2015/16 National Tariff Payments System: accurate representation of activity or service provision. Engagement on national prices consultation. [207815] In many cases, practices listed in these figures as having closed, will have in fact merged and will continue to see Jane Ellison: The National Tariff Payments System: patients. In addition, in this time period the definition Engagement on national prices consultation ran from of general practice has changed to become a more 18 July to 15 August 2014. To engage stakeholders with stringent classification. the consultation, Monitor and NHS England undertook the following activity: Practice closures and openings 2009-14 the consultation was published on Monitor and NHS England’s England NHS London area Enfield Clinical website; Commissioning Group area the consultation was sent to commissioners via NHS England’s Closed Opened Closed Opened Closed Opened July bulletin; to seek feedback, Monitor directly emailed the sector announcing 2010 79 55 12 21 0 0 the consultation, this included; patient groups, commissioners, 2011 111 19 21 6 0 1 care providers, professional organisations, clinical groups and 2012 124 14 31 4 7 0 other relevant national bodies; 2013 126 13 39 5 2 0 Monitor and NHS England held workshops in Birmingham, 2014 (to 78914430Leeds and London, covering acute and mental health care; 31 August) Monitor and NHS England held a selection of webinars, Source: providing an opportunity for participants to ask questions; Health and Social Care Information Centre Monitor carried out social media work, via Twitter and LinkedIn, Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Health interacting with Monitor’s digital content relating to the how many patients (a) were invited to participate in consultation and engagement work; and and (b) responded to the recent GP patient survey. a press release by Monitor and NHS England was issued to all national and healthcare trade broadcast, print and online [208254] media outlets resulting in coverage in Health Service Journal, National Health Executive and Commissioning Review. Dr Poulter: The survey was sent to 2.63 million Approximately 500 responses to the consultation were received. patients. There was a 34% response rate to the survey, Monitor and NHS England are also having further conversations with 903,357 surveys being returned. with a number of those who have provided feedback. 549W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 550W

Health Services: Worcestershire commissioners and providers the key elements of a high quality service in a particular area of care. The IBD Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Standards Group made a submission to the development Health what recent assessment he has made of the group which drew on its new standards of care, published reconfiguration of health services in Worcestershire and in October 2013. The Quality Standard is due to be its effects on Alexandra Hospital, Redditch. [207986] published later this month.

Jane Ellison: The reconfiguration of local health Irritable Bowel Syndrome services is a matter for the local national health service as they are best placed to know the needs of local Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for people and how to deliver them in the best interests of Health if he will fund the provision of a minimum of patients. 1.5 specialist irritable bowel syndrome nurses per 250,000 people. [207847] Hearing Aids Norman Lamb: The Government has no plans to Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health fund the provision of specialist nurses for irritable bowel what the policy of the NHS is on providing hearing syndrome. Through the Mandate, we have asked NHS aids for adults with mild to moderate hearing loss. England to deliver continued improvements in relation [207818] to the experience of care, including long term conditions such as irritable bowel syndrome. Local healthcare Norman Lamb: The provision of hearing aids for organisations, with their knowledge of the people they adults with mild to moderate hearing loss is a matter for serve, are best placed to plan and employ a workforce local commissioners and the level of provision is based based on clinical need and sound evidence. on the needs of the local population. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence Hospitals: Waiting Lists is currently developing a quality standard for irritable bowel syndrome. This is due to be published in September 2014. NHS England expects clinical commissioning Mr Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for groups to take into account the needs of their population Health how many people aged over 50 were on NHS and for service providers to be fully aware of the new hospital waiting lists for in-patient treatment on the guidance and to examine the performance of their latest date for which figures are available. [207898] organisation and assess improvement in standards of care they provide for people with irritable bowel syndrome. Jane Ellison: The information is not collected in the format requested. Consultant-led referral to treatment Medical Treatments waiting times are collected and published each month and include information on the number of patients who are waiting to start treatment at the end of the month. John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health However, these data do not include information on what estimate (a) his Department and (b) the either the age of these patients or whether their treatment National Institute for Health and Care Excellence will involve inpatient treatment. Latest data shows 3.1 (NICE) have made of the savings to the NHS which million patients were waiting to start treatment at the have resulted from NICE rejecting treatments for end of June 2014. routine use on the NHS; if he will list for each medicine which NICE has rejected for use on the NHS in the last Inflammatory Bowel Disease four years the estimated cost saving which resulted from that decision; and if he will make a statement. Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for [207914] Health if he will adopt the latest Inflammatory Bowel Disease Standards Group standards for the care of George Freeman: Neither the Department nor the patients with the condition. [207822] National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) have made any such estimate. Norman Lamb: The National Institute for Health NICE publishes costing templates to help support and Care Excellence (NICE) provides the National implementation of positive technology appraisal Health Service and social care providers with advice on recommendations, but does not prepare information on delivering effective healthcare. NICE has published the possible financial impact on the national health guidelines on inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), set service where a treatment is not recommended in NICE out in, Crohn’s disease: Management in adults, children technology appraisal guidance. and young people, published in October 2012 and, Ulcerative colitis: Management in adults, children and young people, Medicine: Education published in June 2013. NHS England expects local commissioners and providers to consider the latest evidence Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for and guidance when planning services for patients with Health what steps he is taking to increase the number all conditions, including IBD. of places for medical students to undertake training in NICE is currently developing a Quality Standard for GP practices. [208308] IBD, covering both ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease, and invited submissions to its development group from Dr Poulter: Health Education England (HEE) is the key stakeholders as part of this process. Quality Standards special health authority established by the Government are important in setting out to patients, the public, to promote high quality education and training for the 551W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 552W current and future National Health Service workforce Dr Poulter: The Department has set up Health Education backed by a near £5 billion annual budget. England (HEE) to deliver a better health and health HEE have advised that responsibility for the development care work force for England. It is responsible for the and organisation of placements for undergraduate medical education, training and recruiting for values of doctors. students rests with individual medical schools, including HEE is responsible for ensuring a secure work force those placements in GP practices. These are all negotiated supply, i.e. balance against demand and not a growth or locally to ensure high quality education programmes. reduction in the national health service work force. HEE supports moves to increase opportunities for more HEE published its national work force plan for England students and trainees to obtain experience in GP practices. on 17 December 2013 which increased training places Additionally, HEE has been mandated to ensure that for clinical radiology by 1.3% to a planned level of 50% of trainees completing foundation level training 1067. The plan forecasts that this level will be sufficient enter GP training programmes by 2016. to grow the consultant work force by 23% in 2020.

Members: Correspondence John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent estimate his Department has made of the Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Health number of radiologists in training. [207854] if he will arrange for a reply to be sent to the letter concerning a constituent sent by the hon. Member for Dr Poulter: Post graduate training for radiologists in Walsall North to the Walsall Clinical Commissioning England is commissioned locally by the 13 Local Education Group on 7 July 2014, which was sent on to NHS and Training Boards (LETBs) of Health Education England Patient Experience Team in West Bromwich; England (HEE). HEE conducts a twice yearly stock-take and if he will inquire into the reasons for the time taken of its LETBs seeking the number of radiologists in to send a substantive reply to that letter. [208177] training. The last data available (April 2014) shows 952 individuals in radiology training at the time of the Jane Ellison: NHS England has advised a reply to the survey. hon. Member’s letter of 7 July 2014 was issued on 8 Smoke and Chimney Gases September 2014. NHS England has also advised the NHS Central Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Midlands Commissioning Support Unit has sought Health what information his Department holds on the consent from the hon. Member’s constituent to investigate quantum of premature death in the UK caused by the the concerns regarding the level of care received; they emission of wood smoke; and whether he plans to are awaiting a response. publish that information. [207855]

Prescription Drugs Jane Ellison: Figures for premature death in the United Kingdom caused by the emission of wood smoke are John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health not calculated and the Department has no plans to do pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Eddisbury so. of 8 July 2014, Official Report, column 237W,on medical The Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants treatments, which appraisals conducted by the National (COMEAP) has considered the wider issue of the potency Institute for Health and Care Excellence in the last four of particulate matter from different sources in causing years resulted in a recommendation to use a medicine adverse effects on health. This work included consideration on the NHS and specified criteria for starting and of evidence on biomass combustion. COMEAP’s current stopping treatment with that medicine; which starting view (as published in reports in 2009 and 2010) is that and stopping criteria were applied in each case; for what particulate matter measured as PM2.5 is the most conditions each such treatment was recommended in appropriate measure of air pollution for estimating the each case; what the estimated eligible patient population impact on mortality of long-term exposure to air pollution was for each recommended treatment; and if he will in the UK. COMEAP believes that the available evidence make a statement. [207916] does not make it possible to distinguish with confidence between the effects of the different components of the George Freeman: Information about technology ambient air pollution mixture, nor of different sources. appraisals where the National Institute for Health and COMEAP’s reports are available at: Care Excellence (NICE) has included criteria for starting and stopping treatment with the medicine appraised www.comeap.org.uk/documents/reports can be found within each published technology appraisal Wood smoke is a small contributor to the overall on NICE’s website at: level of PM2.5, which is mainly related to traffic and www.nice.org.uk industry emissions. NICE has advised that collating the information Varicose Veins requested would incur disproportionate cost. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Radiography Health how many people aged (a) 30 to 40, (b) 41 to 60 and (c) over 60 have been diagnosed with varicose John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health veins in each of the last three years. [207837] what assessment his Department has made of the challenges experienced by NHS hospitals in recruiting Jane Ellison: This information in not available in the consultant radiologists. [207830] format requested. 553W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 554W

In the table we have provided information concerning Mrs Grant: This year, to date, the Department has the number of finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 replied to 90% of letters from hon. Members within the with a primary diagnosis2 of varicose veins3 for the 20 working day standard. We aim to improve still years 2010-11 to 2012-134 for patients aged (a) 30 to 40, further during the remainder of the year. (b) 41 to 60 and (c) over 60. This is not a count of people as the same person may EU Law have had more than one episode of care within the same time period. We are not able to identify newly diagnosed Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for cases, and have reported on hospital activity where the Culture, Media and Sport how many times the UK has patient is receiving treatment for this condition. Additionally, lost EU infraction proceedings since May 2010 which this data only includes hospitalised cases and does not relate to matters that fall within his Department’s include those treated in primary care. responsibility. [206652]

Age Mrs Grant: There have not been any instances where 30 - 40 41 - 60 61 and over the UK has lost infraction proceedings since May 2010 2010-11 8,271 19,361 15,816 which relate to matters falling within DCMS’ 2011-12 6,599 16,986 15,470 responsibilities. 2012-13 5,899 15,667 15,342 Note: Football Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Culture, Media and Sport what steps his Department is Centre taking to improve supporter involvement with football 1 A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of inpatient clubs. [208170] care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted against the year or month in which the admission Mrs Grant: I continue to press the football authorities episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within to better engage with their fans and have been encouraged the period. by the introduction of a designated Supporter Liaison 2 The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to Officer into each of the Premier League and Football 2006-07 and 7 prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital League clubs. Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason A proposal from Supporters Direct for an expert why the patient was admitted to hospital. group on supporter ownership in football is under 3 Codes used to identify varicose veins include varicose veins of consideration by Government and the football authorities, lower extremities, oesophageal varices, varicose veins of other including terms of reference and timeframes of any sites, varicose veins of lower extremity in pregnancy, and genital resulting work in the area. varices in pregnancy. 4 HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements Football: Qatar in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, changes Culture, Media and Sport when he met the Secretary in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. General of the Qatar 2022 Supreme Committee for Delivery and Legacy; and what plans he has for future meetings. [208222] CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Arts Mrs Grant: I have not met the Secretary General of the Qatar 2022 Supreme Committee for Delivery and Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Legacy and do not currently have any plans for future Media and Sport how many and what proportion of meetings. However, the UK looks to maintain and build (a) directors or senior managers and (b) trustees of the on its strong relations with Qatar. National portfolio organisations for 2015-18 are of BAME background. [208256] Museums and Galleries Mr Vaizey: Of the 670 successful organisations for Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, the National Portfolio 2015-18, 11.7% of management Media and Sport how many and what proportion of staff confirmed in their applications that they were (a) directors or senior managers and (b) trustees of the from a BAME background. Information of this nature Major Partner Museums 2015-18 are women. [208257] on trustees is not requested as part of the NPO applications but ACE are looking at this for future applications. Mr Vaizey: Of the 21 Major Partner Museums 2015-18, Correspondence 57.1% of directors are female. Of the senior management, management committees, boards and governing bodies Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for or councils of these museums, 33.4% are female, of the Culture, Media and Sport whether he has any plans to 55.9% who disclosed this information. Information of increase the number of replies within his Department’s this nature on trustees is not requested as part of the working day standard; and if he will make a statement. application process but Arts Council England are looking [206484] at this for future applications. 555W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 556W

Pay Amber Rudd: Previous and present Secretaries of State carry out official visits to different parts of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, UK as part of their role, both for departmental business Media and Sport what the (a) highest and (b) lowest and for broader Government business such as regional full-time equivalent salary paid by (i) his Department Cabinet meetings. The destinations of regional visits and (ii) its public bodies was in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12, are in the public domain at the time of the visit, but the (C) 2012-13, (D) 2013-14 and (E) 2014-15; and if he will Department does not keep a central log of such visits. make a statement. [208304] Members: Correspondence Mrs Grant: The following table shows the lowest and highest full-time equivalent salaries paid to DCMS Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for employees in each year specified. The highest salary is Energy and Climate Change when the member for shown in bands of £5,000, in-line with the Department’s Walsall North will receive a reply to his letter of 28 July annual disclosure of senior salaries through its annual 2014 to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Climate accounts and reports. The 2014-15 figures are shown as Change concerning the early closure of the Green Deal at 1 September, 2014. Home Energy Efficiency Improvement Fund. [208178]

Highest salary (£) Amber Rudd: A reply to the hon. Member was sent Lowest salary (£) (given as range) on 8 September 2014. 2010-11 19,436 225,000 to 229,999 2011-12 20,034 225,000 to 229,999 Nuclear Power 2012-13 20,034 155,000 to 159,999 2013-14 20,234 150000 to 154999 Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 2014-15 20,234 170,000 to 174,999 and Climate Change pursuant to the contribution of Note: 4 September 2014 by the Minister for Business and Figures as at 1 September 2014 Enterprise, on sustainable energy, what the evidential DCMS does not hold this information in relation to basis is for the statement that nuclear power is its public bodies. zero-carbon energy. [208325]

Viral Haemorrhagic Disease: West Africa Matthew Hancock: The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates that the life cycle emissions associated with the generation of electricity from nuclear Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State power groups are virtually zero-carbon with no direct for Culture, Media and Sport if he will have discussions CO2 emissions and less than 1% of the life-cycle CO2 with UEFA and FIFA on the Ebola infection risk emissions of natural gas or any other fossil fuel. arising from the decision to stage the Ivory Coast versus Sierra Leone football match on 6 September Television 2014. [208060]

Mrs Grant: I have not had discussions with FIFA or Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for UEFA on this matter, however, I am assured by the Energy and Climate Change how much his Department Premier League that UK based Premier League players spent on the purchase of televisions in (a) 2013 and (b) taking part in this fixture took advice from their individual 2014 to date. [207213] club doctors. We understand that none of the players and staff of the Sierra Leone team had entered Sierra Amber Rudd: The Department has no recorded Leone in the 21 days up to the fixture as requested by expenditure on the purchase of televisions in either the Ivory Coast and this was viewed to be an effective a year. quarantine measure. The Department of Health advised that the risk of Ebola infection at a football match is considered low. ATTORNEY-GENERAL Exit screening measures, including body temperature measurement when leaving affected countries, are in Members: Correspondence place. Mr Chope: To ask the Attorney-General when he passed the letter from the hon. Member for Christchurch about Mrs Kirkhope of Ferndown to the Chief Constable ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE for Hampshire; and what steps has been taken as a result of that letter. [208253] Domestic Visits The Attorney-General: Our records suggest that a Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for copy of the letter should have been posted to the Chief Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of Constable of Hampshire on 3 April. However, no record 18 June 2014, Official Report, column 618W, on official exists of whether it was received or not by his office. My visits, what domestic visits he and his predecessor have office has since been in contact with Hampshire police made since January 2013; and what the purpose of about the matter and they have now received a copy of each such visit was. [208298] the letter and will be taking it forward. 557W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 558W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Data has been taken from the Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Database. Biofuels Defendants proceeded against at magistrates court for offences under 1,2 Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Control of Dogs Order 1992, England and Wales, 2009-2013 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what information Statute Offence 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 her Department holds on the level of biomass power Control Owner/ 32 29 26 19 16 generation in the UK located in (a) urban areas and of person i/c (b) areas of above average atmospheric pollution; and Dogs of a dog, if her Department will publish that information. Order w/o lawful 1992, authority/ [207821] article 3 excuse, cause/ Dan Rogerson: DEFRA only holds information for permit to biomass generation in England. Power-generating stations be in that burn only biomass are located in: Brigg, Lincolnshire; highway/ Ely, Cambridgeshire; Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire; place no collar— Selby, North Yorkshire; Sleaford, Lincolnshire; Snetterton, owner n/a Norfolk; and Telford, Shropshire. There are power attached generating stations that co-fire biomass with other fuels 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons such as gas or coal, but the proportion of biomass for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they burning in these is very low. were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is DEFRA assesses air quality through a combination imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more of fixed monitoring and modelling, and data is freely offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory available on our website. While it is not straightforward maximum penalty is the most severe. to define “above average air pollution”, pollution levels 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate can be found at: and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by uk-air.defra.gov.uk/interactive-map the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken by locating the nearest monitoring station and looking to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are at the latest and historical data for that site. Modelled taken into account when those data are used. Source: data is presented on a GIS map at: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. uk-air.defra.gov.uk/data/gis-mapping Domestic Visits Locations can be searched and overlays are displayed for different pollutants. Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Cetaceans: Faroe Islands Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2014, Official Report, columns 626-7W, Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for on official visits, what domestic visits she and her Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent predecessor have made since January 2013; and what discussions her Department has had with the government the purpose of each such visit was. [208297] of Denmark about hunting cetaceans in the Faroe Islands. [208168] Dan Rogerson: Information on Ministers’ meetings with external organisations is published quarterly on George Eustice: The UK continues to raise its opposition the Gov.uk site. This reflects the Government’s commitment to the Faroese cetacean hunts at every appropriate to transparency. However, we cannot identify without opportunity. incurring disproportionate cost every visit over the period Most recently, in May 2014, the UK Commissioner for all Ministers. to the International Whaling Commission (IWC) wrote Relevant transparency reports can be found as follows: to the Danish and Faroese governments to reiterate our 1 January to 31 March 2013: concerns over the welfare and sustainability of their https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ hunts. Prior to this, the UK ambassador to Denmark attachment_data/file/212312/defra-min-transparency-1213- visited the Faroe Islands in April 2014 and raised the q4.pdf issue in a meeting with the Prime Minister and officials There has been a delay in publishing transparency data from their Fisheries Ministry. for 1 January to 31 March 2014. We expect it to be Dogs available shortly. 1 April to 30 June 2013: Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many attachment_data/file/246396/Ministerial_expenses_- prosecutions there have been in England and Wales in _1_April_to_30_June_2013.pdf the last five years for failure to comply with the collar 1 July to 30 September 2013: and tag requirements in the Control of Dogs Order https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ 1992. [207820] attachment_data/file/265462/ Ministers_Quarterly_return_July_to_September_2013.pdf George Eustice: Defendants proceeded against at 1 October to 31 December 2013: magistrates court for offences under the Control of https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Dogs Order 1992 in England and Wales from 2009 to attachment_data/file/320333/ 2013 (latest available) can be viewed in the following Ministerial_Quarterly_Transparency_information_- table. _October_to_December_2013.pdf 559W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 560W

Food: Crime Mr Goodwill: The A65 runs from the M6 in Cumbria to Leeds in Yorkshire and is the responsibility of the Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for five local authorities along its route. I am not aware that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to her any of the local authorities have plans to widen the written statement of 4 September 2014, on the Elliott section of route that runs through their area. Review, what extra resources (a) her Department and (b) the Government will provide to the Food Standards Crewe-Derby Railway Line Agency for the establishment and operation of the Food Crime Unit in financial year (i) 2014-15 and (ii) Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for 2015-16. [208361] Transport what assessment he has made of the need for extra capacity on the Crewe-Derby rail line. [207817] George Eustice: Professor Elliott estimates that the Food Crime Unit will cost between £2 million and Claire Perry: I have made no such assessment. Network £4 million per year. The costs of a unit this size will be Rail is currently undertaking a Long Term Planning met within the Food Standards Agency’s (FSA) existing Process in consultation with industry, local and other budgets, however it is too early to predict exact figures. stakeholders to identify the strategic priorities for future No other budgets within the FSA will be cut and development of the rail network following the 2014-19 their core remit will remain food safety and consumer Control Period. protection. Instead the FSA has used a recent restructuring exercise to bring together skills in intelligence and Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency investigation and redirect them to resource the new Unit. The FSA is also bolstering its analytical and Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State intelligence capability through recruitment and secondments for Transport how many complaints his Department from other agencies. has received from people in Northern Ireland about the The FSA has committed to review likely future needs DVLA since July 2014. [208059] after two years. At this point there will also be further consideration of budgetary implications. Claire Perry: Since 1 July, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency has received 38 complaints from Northern Horse Meat Ireland residents. Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for East Croydon Station Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she intends to publish the official report examining the causes of Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2013 horse meat scandal; and what the reason is for Transport if he will make it his policy to increase the delay in publication. [208030] capacity at East Croydon station; and if he will make a George Eustice: On 4 June 2013 the Secretary of State statement. [208154] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs announced that Professor Chris Elliott would lead an independent Claire Perry: Network Rail’s Sussex Route Study is review of Britain’s food system in light of the horsemeat considering options to enhance capacity right along the fraud. The ‘Review into the Integrity and Assurance of Brighton Main Line. A draft report for consultation Food Supply Networks’ focused on consumer confidence will be published later this year, and a final report will in the authenticity of all food products and any weaknesses be publish in 2015 setting out options for potential in food supply networks which could have implications schemes beyond 2019. for food safety and public health. The review started Energy in June 2013 and the final report was published on 4 September 2014. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Unmanned Air Vehicles Transport what steps he is taking to reduce energy costs in his Department; and if he will make a statement. Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for [208348] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many quadcopters or similar remote controlled devices her Claire Perry: The Department for Transport has Department has purchased; for what purpose such introduced a number of measures across its organisations quadcopters were so purchased; and at what cost to the to improve energy efficiency and reduce energy costs. public purse such quadcopters were so purchased. These include: [208032] An overarching Operations Sustainability Strategy which enables Dan Rogerson: Core DEFRA has not acquired or the identification, management and delivery of energy efficiency measures; used any quadcopters or similar remote controlled devices. The development and implementation of the Carbon Trust endorsed organisation specific Carbon Management Plans by the Central Department and the Driver and Vehicle Standards TRANSPORT Agency (former Driving Standards Agency estate); A65 Rationalisation of offices to maximise the efficient and effective use of office space; David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Relocation of staff to more appropriate sites where functions Transport if there are any plans to widen the A65 which have diminished or changed; connects Cumbria and North Lancashire to Yorkshire. Partial closing of buildings during low occupancy periods (i.e. [207895] Christmas, new year); 561W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 562W

Optimising building management systems to minimise the use with the reliability of the mechanical signalling in the of heating and cooling; Worcester area, Network Rail has provided an additional Installation of boiler optimisation controls to improve boiler maintenance team based at Worcester which is working efficiency; to address underlying causes of poor reliability. Installation of voltage optimisation equipment at large administrative buildings to reduce electricity consumption; Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Lighting improvement programmes (including the installation Transport with reference to the National Rail framework of LED lights where appropriate and passive infrared (PIR) agreement published on 1 September 2014, when the controls); National Audit Office will have access to Network Optimisation of IT servers; Rail’s accounts. [208092] Improvements to building insulation; Updating desktop IT with more efficient models; Claire Perry: The Comptroller and Auditor General will audit Network Rail’s Annual Report and Accounts. Rationalisation of peripheral IT equipment such as printers and faxes with the introduction of multi-functional devices It is intended that the appointment of the Comptroller (MFDs); and Auditor General as external auditor to Network Installation of renewable energy sources such as wind turbines, Rail will take effect from April 2015 to time with the air source heat pumps and photovoltaic cells where appropriate start of the new financial year. Until then, Network and cost-effective; Rail will continue to ensure that another appropriate Motorway lighting switch off scheme between midnight and 5 auditor will carry out a statutory audit under the Companies am in pre-assessed areas of the motorway network. Act 2006 and that its annual regulatory financial statement The Department for Transport is committed to achieving is also suitably audited. all its sustainability targets and lowering energy costs Paragraph 5.5 of the Framework Agreement explains through improving energy efficiency is seen as a key that to enable the Comptroller and Auditor General to element in attaining that goal. exercise his or her function as the statutory auditor, Network Rail will make available relevant information, Level Crossings: Accidents documents and access to staff as necessary, including in the period prior to appointment, to develop a sound Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for understanding of the Network Rail business and accounts. Transport how many people were killed on unmanned Railway Stations: Accidents rail track crossings in each year since 2011. [208113] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Claire Perry: The following table sets out the number Transport how many people were injured as a result of of accidental fatalities at unmanned level crossings each staff negligence at railway stations in each year since year: January 2010. [208101] Accidental fatalities 2011 2012 2013 20141 Total Claire Perry: The Department does not hold this information as it is a matter for the individual train Total 5 7 9 7 28 operators. 1 2014 is a part year; this figure refers to January to March. Railways: Greater Manchester Network Rail Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of whether the Transport if he will make it his policy to sell Network new Northern Franchise will take account of increased Rail to the train operating companies following the connectivity to Reddish South and Denton arising failure of the signalling system on the Great Western from the better use of existing infrastructure through Rail line between Hereford and London Paddington on those stations. [208033] 21 July 2014. [207848] Claire Perry: The Department for Transport is currently Claire Perry: On 1 September Network Rail was working with Rail North in the development of the reclassified to the public sector and the Department specifications for the TransPennine Express and Northern and Network Rail published a Framework Agreement franchises. In doing so we will take account of all setting out their new relationship. Reclassification is an relevant data and the views expressed in responses to independent statistical decision that does not change the consultation. the structure of the rail industry. The Framework Agreement represents Government policy on Network Railways: Kingsnorth Rail and there are no plans to change this. Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Following its reclassification, Network Rail is now an Transport what plans he has to provide a new rail halt arm’s-length public sector body. The reliability of the at Kingsnorth in Ashford, Kent; and if he will make a signalling systems on its Western Route remains an statement. [208299] operational matter for the company. Network Rail advises that a signalling failure at Worcester Claire Perry: In line with our localism agenda, it is for in the early morning of 21 July caused considerable local authorities to decide whether they want a new delay to both First Great Western services to London station that meets local transport needs. It is for Kent and to London Midland services to Birmingham. Normal county council to decide on whether building a new working was restored around midday. To address issues station in Kingsnorth meets local transport needs. 563W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 564W

Railways: North of England Driver only operation is a safe method that is already the working practice on around 30% of existing franchise services (including for instance many commuter services Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for in London and Glasgow). Transport what steps are being taken to ensure safety Roads: Accidents on Northern Rail and TransPennine Express trains running driver-only operations. [207965] Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many pedestrians who are (a) male, Claire Perry: There are currently no services on either (b) female, (c) children and (d) aged over 65 suffered the TransPennine Express (TPE) or Northern franchises (i) fatal and (ii) serious injuries in each of the last that use driver only operation (DOO). In the consultation 10 years for which figures are available. [207929] on the future of these franchises, which concluded on Mr Goodwill: The numbers of reported pedestrian 28 August, we stated that: casualties (killed, seriously injured and slightly injured) “on the Northern franchise, we expect to require bidders to set in Great Britain who were male, female, children (aged out how DOO may be introduced onto suitable services. On TPE, 0 to 15) and aged over 65 in the years 2004 to 2013 are this will be left at bidders’ discretion.” given in the following table:

Reported pedestrian casualties by gender, selected age and severity: GB, 2004-2013 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013

Male Killed 450 421 452 422 362 324 275 308 290 270 Seriously 4,208 3,889 3,867 3,838 3,626 3,344 3,115 3,211 3,345 2,947 injured Slightly 15,654 15,028 13,505 13,192 12,278 11,643 11,449 11,528 10,736 10,406 injured All casualties 20,312 19,338 17,824 17,452 16,266 15,311 14,839 15,047 14,371 13,623

Female Killed 221 250 223 224 210 176 130 145 130 128 Seriously 2,597 2,568 2,508 2,440 2,439 2,200 2,085 2,243 2,214 2,050 injured Slightly 11,737 11,095 10,420 10,053 9,540 9,197 8,780 8,763 8,502 8,228 injured All casualties 14,555 13,913 13,151 12,717 12,189 11,573 10,995 11,151 10,846 10,406

Child: 0-15 years Killed 77 63 71 57 57 37 26 33 20 26 Seriously 2,262 2,071 1,954 1,842 1,727 1,623 1,620 1,569 1,525 1,332 injured Slightly 9,895 9,116 8,106 7,628 6,864 6,323 6,283 6,205 5,454 5,038 Injured All casualties 12,234 11,250 10,131 9,527 8,648 7,983 7,929 7,807 6,999 6,396

Aged over 65 years Killed 221 234 240 251 211 176 130 151 161 131 Seriously 1,000 957 926 990 981 889 803 890 936 860 injured Slightly 2,358 2,255 2,124 2,069 1,991 1,949 1,727 1,840 1,886 1,845 Injured All casualties 3,579 3,446 3,290 3,310 3,183 3,014 2,660 2,881 2,983 2,836

Data for 2014 will be available in June 2015. This is published on a sessional basis by the committee, and includes evidence regarding departmental performance. Written Questions The monitoring report relating to the 2012-13 Session was published on 13 February 2014 as HC1046. The Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport report covering statistics relating to performance during what proportion of named day written questions were the 2013-14 Session will be published very shortly by answered by his Department within the prescribed period the Procedure Committee. in the (a) 2012-13 Session, (b) 2013-14 Session and (c) 2014-15 Session to date. [208432] The Department for Transport has answered all named day parliamentary questions in the 2014-15 Session Claire Perry: Departmental performance information, within the prescribed period. for ordinary and named day parliamentary questions, is collated by the Office of the Leader of the House of Commons and submitted to the Procedure Committee. 565W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 566W

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Mr Simon Burns: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Carol Mills Commons Commission, who authorises expenditure for the Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy; and out of which budget-heading such funding has Michael Fabricant: To ask the hon. Member for been allocated. [208217] Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, whether the John Thurso: Expenditure for the Speaker’s Commission selection panel for the new Clerk of the House and was authorised by the Director General, Information Chief Executive was informed by Saxton Bampfylde of Services. The Commission on Digital Democracy has a the Australian Senate investigations into the conduct separate budget heading within the Department of of Ms Carol Mills; and when the panel became aware Information Services budget. of those investigations. [207728]

John Thurso: I refer the hon. Gentleman to my answer of 8 September 2014, Official Report, column 430W, to CABINET OFFICE the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns). The panel was not made aware of the investigations Cybercrime before reaching its conclusion. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Pay Office what role the National Security Adviser has in relation to cyber-security. [208223]

Mr Frank Field: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Mr Maude: The National Security Adviser is the Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Head of the National Security Secretariat within the Commons Commission, how many (a) direct, (b) Cabinet Office, which supports the National Security outsourced and (c) agency employees on the Parliamentary Council and the Prime Minister in the full range of estate are (i) paid less than the London living wage and national security issues across Government, including (ii) employed on a zero-hours contract. [208038] cyber security, and ensures that departmental work is effectively co-ordinated. The Office of Cyber Security John Thurso: The House of Commons is an accredited and Information Assurance sits within the National London Living Wage Employer. In order to obtain our Security Secretariat and has responsibility for coordinating licence the House had to satisfy the Living Wage Foundation work to achieve the aims of the UK Cyber Security that no directly employed or contracted workers engaged Strategy and oversees the National Cyber Security to work on the Parliamentary estate are paid less than Programme. the London Living Wage (LLW). The House of Commons has gone further than its obligations under this licence Immigrants: Russia by adopting a policy of assuring that all contractors supplying a service to the House, regardless of whether Lady Hermon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet they work on the Estate, are paid at least a living wage. Office what estimate he has made of the number of The House is committed to offering guaranteed minimum Russian citizens resident in the UK; and if he will make hours contracts to all directly-employed staff on call-off a statement. [208331] (zero hours) contracts and has recently completed a process of offering guaranteed minimum hours contracts Mr Newmark: The information requested falls within to all affected staff. The only call-off contracts that the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have remain relate to two employees who have yet to accept asked the authority to reply. or who preferred not to accept our offer. Letter from Caron Walker to Lady Hermon, dated We do not have information on whether or how many September 2014: contracted workers are employed on zero hours contracts. On behalf of the Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to ask what estimate he has made of the number of Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy Russian citizens resident in the UK; and if he will make a statement. [208331] Mr Simon Burns: To ask the hon. Member for The latest estimates that are available for the number of Russian Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing citizens resident in the UK are derived from Annual Population Survey (APS) data for the 12 month period of January to December the House of Commons Commission, what the total 2013. cost has been of the Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy; and how many people are employed to The estimated number of Russian citizens resident in households in the UK was 35,000, with a corresponding margin of error of work on the Commission. [208179] +/- 8,000. The margin of error refers to the 95 per cent confidence interval and is a measure of the uncertainty associated with John Thurso: The total cost assigned to the Commission making inferences from a sample. In this case we expect the true on Digital Democracy’s budget to the end of July 2014 number of Russian citizens resident in households in the UK to is £146,512. be within the range 27,000 to 43,000 in 19 out of 20 possible samples drawn. There are currently four people employed to work on The APS is the Labour Force Survey (LFS) plus various the Commission, although one of these spends 20% of sample boosts. It is a household survey and so does not include his time working on other matters. people living in most types of communal establishment. 567W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 568W

Pay The Prime Minister: Shortly after its creation in 2010, the National Security Council (NSC) approved a new Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet National Security Strategy (NSS) to ensure a strong Office (1) what the (a) highest and (b) lowest full-time Britain in an age of uncertainty. There have been no equivalent salary paid by his Office was in (i) 2010-11, fundamental changes to our policy on national security (ii) 2011-12, (iii) 2012-13, (iv) 2013-14 and (v) 2014-15; issues since then. The NSS has provided a sound basis and if he will make a statement; [208279] to guide our response to subsequent challenges to our national security. Whitehall Departments are brought (2) what the (a) highest and (b) lowest full-time together through the NSC to take collective decisions at equivalent salary paid by No. 10 Downing Street was in a time of increasing strategic uncertainty. (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12, (iii) 2012-13, (iv) 2013-14 and (v) 2014-15; and if he will make a statement; [208290] Radicalism: Wales (3) what the (a) highest and (b) lowest full-time equivalent salary paid by (i) his Department and (ii) its public bodies was in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12, (C) Stephen Doughty: To ask the Prime Minister what 2012-13, (D) 2013-14 and (E) 2014-15; and if he will recent discussions he has had with the First Minister of make a statement. [208302] Wales on tackling extremism; and whether he plans to discuss the issue of tackling extremism at his next Joint Mr Maude: The Deputy Prime Minister’s Office and Ministerial Council meeting. [208166] the Prime Minister’s Office are integral parts of the Cabinet Office. The Prime Minister: I regularly meet the First Minister The following tables set out the highest and lowest of Wales to discuss a range of issues and will continue full-time equivalent salaries paid by my Department to do so. and its public bodies, during the years specified: Cabinet Office £ 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 2013/14 2014/15 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS

Min 15,938 16,229 16,229 16,229 16,807 16,807 Biofuels: Imports Max 238,526 238,526 238,526 190,000 191,813 193,923

Big Lottery Fund Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Business, Innovation and Skills what information he 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 2013/14 2014/15 holds on the proportion of wood pellets imported from Min 13,459 12,632 13,853 13,853 13,853 North America that were derived from roundwood in [207891] Max 140,000 140,000 141,400 140,000 140,000 the latest year for which figures are available.

Written Questions Matthew Hancock: The Government does not hold any information on the proportion of imported wood Hilary Benn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet pellets from North America from roundwood. Office what proportion of named day written questions were answered by his Department within the prescribed Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for period in the (a) 2012-13 session, (b) 2013-14 session Business, Innovation and Skills what information he and (c) 2014-15 session to date. [208418] holds on the level of wood pellet imports from (a) the USA and (b) Canada in each of the last three years for Mr Maude: Departmental performance information which figures are available. [207892] for ordinary and named day Parliamentary Questions is collated by the Office of the Leader of the House of Matthew Hancock: Data on the value and net mass of Commons and submitted to the Procedure Committee. imports of wood pellets are published by HMRC in This is published on a sessional basis by the committee, Overseas Trade Statistics. Data for the year 2011 to and includes evidence regarding departmental performance. 2013 are shown in the following tables. Due to routine The monitoring report relating to the 2012-13 session updating of the commodity codes by EUROSTAT, was published on 13 February 2014 as HC1046. The wood pellets were coded as ‘44013020—sawdust and report covering statistics relating to performance during wood waste and scrap, agglomerated in pellets’ in 2011, the 2013-14 session will be published very shortly by the but then classified to the new code ‘44013100—wood Procedure Committee. pellets’ in 2012 and 2013. For this analysis, we have combined these two headings to provide a consistent series. Wood pellet imports to the UK from the USA PRIME MINISTER 2011 2012 2013

National Security Council Value wood 32,516,769 59,993,226 196,894,259 pellets imports Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Prime Minister whether the (£) National Security Council has reviewed the collective Net mass of 274,453,183 475,336,518 1,684,810,418 strategic impact of policy changes since its creation in wood pellet imports (kg) 2010. [208171] 569W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 570W

Wood pellet imports to the UK from Canada Greg Clark: The latest figures published by UCAS 2011 2012 2013 for the 2014 application cycle show that, as at the main UCAS deadline of 15 January, the application rate for Value wood 77,712,194 108,073,728 168,603,061 pellets imports young people from the most disadvantaged areas in (£) England had risen to the highest ever level (20.7%). The Net mass of 591,780,847 854,602,676 1,355,464,003 detailed figures can be found at: wood pellet http://www.ucas.com/news-events/news/2014/2014-cycle- imports (kg) applicant-figures-january-deadline-2014 Note: Wood pellets were classified as ‘HS 44013020—sawdust and wood The latest data on ethnic background show that waste and scrap, agglomerated in pellets’ in 2011 and as ‘HS application rates for all ethnic groups rose in 2014, 44013100—wood pellets’ in 2012 and 2013. reaching new highs for most groups. The figures can be Source: found at: HMRC Overseas Trade Statistics. http://www.ucas.com/data-analysis/analysis-notes Business: Billing

Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment he has made of the effect of late payments on small and Local Enterprise Partnerships: East of England medium-sized businesses (SMEs); and whether his Department plans to bring forward any further measures Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for to assist in SMEs with cash flow. [207890] Business, Innovation and Skills for what reasons the new Anglia LEP has received an extension on its loan Matthew Hancock: In the May 2014 Government facility but the Greater Cambridge Greater Peterborough Response to our discussion paper, ‘Building a Responsible LEP was refused a similar request. [207492] Payment Culture’, we set out measures to create greater transparency of payment practices and a more responsible Greg Clark: Growth Deals were bespoke to each LEP payment culture. Through the Small Business, Enterprise area and negotiated with Government based on each and Employment Bill we are developing a requirement LEP’s multi-year Strategic Economic plan, taking into for large firms to publish their payment practices and a account their priorities for which interventions would measure to prohibit contractual barriers to finance. drive economic growth in their area. Greater Cambridge In addition, we have committed to working with the Greater Peterborough LEP submitted two proposals to Institute for Credit Management and signatories to support existing business support initiatives. GCGP strengthen the Prompt Payment Code. And the British LEP prioritised one of the proposals, the Agri-tech Business Bank aims to address long standing, structural fund, during negotiations, which received £1.55 million gaps in the supply of finance to businesses and provide in 2015/16 in their Growth Deal. diverse sources of funding for small and medium sized businesses. Construction Pay Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of the level of construction output in (a) Coventry, Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, (b) the West Midlands and (c) England in each of the Innovation and Skills what the (a) highest and (b) last five years. [208173] lowest full-time equivalent salary paid by (i) his Department and (ii) its public bodies was in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12, Nick Boles: Data on construction output is published (C) 2012-13, (D) 2013-14 and (E) 2014-15; and if he will by the ONS, in their statistical bulletin ‘Output in the make a statement. [208300] Construction Industry’. This includes information on construction output for the regions of England, plus Jo Swinson: The following table shows the highest Scotland and Wales. No data for individual cities is and lowest full-time equivalent salaries paid by the published. This information has not been adjusted for Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) inflation. in bands of £5,000 between 2010 and 2014. Value of Construction Output: current prices (£ million) 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 Lowest full-time Highest full-time equivalent salary equivalent salary England 97,068 102,005 106,456 102,195 106,468 2010-11 10,000 to 15,000 220,000 – 225,000 West 8,243 9,158 8,927 8,329 9,347 Midlands 2011-12 15,000 to 20,000 200,000 – 205,000 Source: 2012-13 15,000 to20,000 185,000 to190,000 ONS 2013-14 15,000 to20,000 170,000 to175,000 Higher Education: Admissions

Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for As we have not competed the financial year 2014-15 Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has we are unable to provide figures for that period at this made of the recent trends in the number of university time. applications from students from disadvantaged or This information is not held by BIS in respect of minority ethnic backgrounds. [207993] non-departmental public bodies. 571W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 572W

Students: Loans Matthew Hancock: The UK Government is a strong supporter of the Trade in Services Agreement, which Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for provides an opportunity to address barriers to trade in Business, Innovation and Skills when his Department services through seeking to deepen services trade rules plans to make a decision about future funding of and regulatory disciplines and to address market access students and recognition of courses at the 23 private objectives. Given the crucial role of financial stability to colleges which it suspended from recruiting further overall economic stability, governments and regulators students in November 2014. [207043] need to have the ability to closely monitor and regulate banks, insurance companies and other financial services Greg Clark: The Department required all alternative providers. The TiSA text will contain a prudential carve-out providers to reapply to have their courses designated for which will fully protect the ability of UK and international student support for the 2014/15 academic year. All financial regulators to regulate and take any prudential alternative providers, including those that had their actions for the sake of financial stability or to protect designations suspended for the remainder of the 2013/14 investors, depositors, policy holders or persons to whom academic year, are being reviewed against the new criteria, a fiduciary duty is owed by a financial service supplier. and have already received a final decision or have been invited to submit additional information.

Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Business, Innovation and Skills what guidance his Department has issued to the 23 private colleges which Affordable Housing: Construction it suspended from recruiting further students in November 2013 on their ability to advertise and recruit Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for students to commence courses in September 2014. Communities and Local Government what assessment [207044] his Department has made of the proportion of affordable homes delivered through section 106 agreements on Greg Clark: The Department required all alternative sites of fewer than 10 homes in each of the last five providers to reapply to have their courses designated for years. [208220] student support for the 2014/15 academic year. All alternative providers, including those that had their Brandon Lewis: The Government does not hold statistics designations suspended for the remainder of the 2013/14 on the proportion of affordable homes delivered through academic year, were told that they should not advertise section 106 agreements on sites of fewer than 10 homes their courses as attracting student support until such in each of the last five years. time as these course had been redesignated. The Government’s public consultation on proposed changes to national policy on section 106 planning Textiles obligations agreements closed on 4 May. Interested parties were invited to submit evidence on the impact of Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the proposed measures, both in terms of developer Innovation and Skills which projects have received how contributions to local infrastructure and affordable much funding under the Textile Growth Programme to housing, and on unblocking stalled sites and increasing date. [207546] the pace and scale of small site development. Unrealistic Section 106 agreements result in no housing development, Greg Clark: The Department for Business, Innovation no regeneration and no community benefits. Over and Skills does not hold the data in the format requested. 300 responses were received and the Government is now carefully considering the evidence submitted before Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, announcing the outcomes of the consultation. Innovation and Skills what the key objectives are of the Textile Growth Programme. [207547] Affordable Housing: Rural Areas Greg Clark: The key objectives of the Textile Growth Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Programme are to: Communities and Local Government what assessment Stimulate private sector enterprise by investing in work force his Department has made of the potential effect of skills, design and innovation capacity and modern plant and removing section 106 planning obligations from sites of machinery in small and medium-sized enterprises. fewer than 10 houses on the provision of affordable Strengthen local supply chains, support reshoring of textile housing in rural areas. [208221] manufacturing and promote sustainable growth. Create or safeguard over 1,000 private sector jobs at all skill Brandon Lewis: The Government’s public consultation levels in Greater Manchester, Lancashire and West Yorkshire. on proposed changes to national policy on section 106 planning obligations agreements closed on 4 May.Interested Trade Agreements parties were invited to submit evidence on potential local impacts of the proposed measures both in terms Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, of developer contributions and on increasing the pace Innovation and Skills what information his Department and scale of small site development. Over 300 responses holds on whether the proposed Trade in Services Agreement were received and the Government is now carefully treaty is likely to contain provisions to prevent increased considering the evidence submitted before announcing regulation of the financial services sector. [207177] the outcomes of the consultation. 573W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 574W

Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty independent review into council tax support schemes; and if he will make a statement; [207597] Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what progress he has made in identifying the right Communities and Local Government if he will issue data sources for an independent review into council tax guidance to the Planning Inspectorate on decisions support schemes; and with which local authorities his where the location of a planning appeal is within an Department has been working. [207596] Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty. [207849] Kris Hopkins: The Department is currently working Brandon Lewis: Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, with the Council Tax Partnership Forum and local along with National Parks and the Broads, have the authorities to identify appropriate and proportionate highest status of protection in national planning policy data for the review. The Council Tax Partnership Forum in relation to landscape and scenic beauty. This is set consists of representatives of local authorities, fire and out in the National Planning Policy Framework, which rescue authorities, the Society of County Treasurers, must be taken into account in the preparation of local the Society of District Council Treasurers, the Police and neighbourhood plans, and is a material consideration Authority Treasurers Society, the Association of Chief in planning decisions. Police Officers, the Society for Information Technology In March 2014 we issued web-based planning guidance Management, Unitary Treasurers, London Councils, to support the policies in the Framework. This guidance the Local Government Association, the Institute of is available to all decision makers at: Revenues, Rating and Valuation, and the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy. http://planningguidance.planningportal.gov.uk/blog/ guidance/natural-environment/landscape/ The timetable, coverage, process for data collection and detailed terms of reference for the review will be Council Tax agreed and published in due course. Spending on council tax benefit doubled under the Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for last Government, costing taxpayers £4 billion a year— Communities and Local Government what estimate he equivalent to almost £180 a year per household. Welfare has made of the cost to local authorities of holding reform is vital to tackle the budget deficit by the last council tax referendums. [207133] Administration. Our reforms to localise council tax support now give Kris Hopkins: Further to the passage of the Localism councils stronger incentives to support local firms, cut Act, the Government published an impact assessment fraud, promote local enterprise and get people to into on the council tax referendums policy. A copy has been work. We are ending the last Administration’s ’something placed in the Library of the House. for nothing’ culture and making work pay. Notwithstanding, the costs will be significantly lower Fire Services if a referendum is held at the same time as another election. Given a general election will be held in May Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for 2015, the marginal cost to the public purse of holding a Communities and Local Government if he will estimate referendum next year alongside this would be minimal, the Government spend per head of population on fire other than the small costs of printing and counting the and rescue services in (a) Nottinghamshire, (b) the extra ballot papers. East Midlands and (c) England in each of the last three years. [201779] Council Tax Reduction Schemes Penny Mordaunt: The following table shows local Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for authority expenditure on fire and rescue services, as Communities and Local Government (1) with reference well as the number of fire incidents attended, over the to the answer of 27 February 2014, Official Report, last decade. It illustrates the significant fall in the number column 442W, on council tax benefits, when he expects of incidents attended, whilst average spending has remained to (a) begin and (b) publish the findings of an broadly the same over that long-term period.

Expenditure per head (£) Fire incidents attended (number) Nottinghamshire England Nottinghamshire England

2003-04 31.98 34.82 13,800 473,600 2004-05 35.83 38.36 9,000 342,000 2005-06 35.40 40.56 8,700 336,100 2006-07 36.85 43.03 8,600 336,200 2007-08 38.61 43.46 7,700 293,900 2008-09 38.61 40.60 6,300 249,200 2009-10 39.54 41.71 6,200 241,400 2010-11 38.48 41.12 5,600 228,400 2011-12 37.64 39.87 6,100 223,900 2012-13 36.98 39.61 3,300 154,400 Sources: Revenue Outturn forms and Office for National Statistic’s mid-year population estimates. 575W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 576W

My Department does not publish statistics by the Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for former Government Office Regions. Communities and Local Government whether the money Last year, Sir Ken Knight’s independent review of allocated by his Department to Eastbourne pier is the fire and rescue services found huge variations in the covered in full or in part by insurance. [207776] way that local fire and rescue authorities operated. Services continue to spend according to the budget they Penny Mordaunt: The £2 million of funding to are given, rather than to the risks they have to manage. Eastbourne council will be used to help counter the Huge variations exist between how the 46 different fire impact of the loss of the pier on local businesses and authorities operate, with the cost per head of providing the community. None of the funding will be provided a service almost double in some areas to that of others. for rebuilding of the pier itself, which, I understand, is This did not seem to be related to whether they are large covered by the pier owner’s insurance. or small, rural or urban, deprived or affluent. Sir Ken concluded that there were significant Planning opportunities for sensible savings such as through: sharing of senior staff, reforms to flexible staffing and crewing Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for arrangements, better procurement, shared services, Communities and Local Government what assessment collaboration with emergency services and other he has made of the effectiveness of village or neighbourhood organisations on service delivery and estates, sickness plans; and how many such plan have been lodged and management, locally-led mergers and operational accepted. [207990] collaborations, new fire-fighting technology, preventative approaches and working with local businesses. Brandon Lewis: Neighbourhood planning, for the Fire Services: Pensions first time, gives residents and individuals in businesses the opportunity to produce neighbourhood plans that Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for have real statutory weight in the planning system and Communities and Local Government if he will provide grant planning permission for development they want additional funds to Essex fire and rescue service to to see through neighbourhood development orders cover the cost of payments to the firefighters injury (including community right to build orders). Over 1,100 pension scheme incurred in each financial year since communities have taken the first steps towards producing a neighbourhood plan for their area and there has been 2006. [207773] overwhelming support for neighbourhood plans at the Penny Mordaunt: The regulations governing the 27 local referendums held so far. The first 19 neighbourhood firefighters’ pension schemes set out which payments plans are now in force (made) and are part of the are eligible for annual pension top-up grant claims by development plan for the area. Planning applications fire and rescue authorities and is paid by the Department. will be determined in accordance with the development The statutory “Guidance for fire and rescue authorities plan unless material considerations indicate otherwise. on new financial arrangements for firefighter pensions with effect from April 2006” issued by the Department Right to Buy Scheme: North East in 2006 provides guidance for fire and rescue authorities to implement the finance arrangements, including setting Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for out which specific payments are eligible for top-up Communities and Local Government how many grant expenditure and which are not eligible. The guidance tenants exercised the right to buy in each local sets out that injury awards are not eligible expenditure authority in Northumberland, Durham and Tyne and for the top-up grant. Wear in each of the last five years. [207969] We understand that, since the changes were implemented in 2006, Essex fire and rescue authority has incorrectly Brandon Lewis: The number of Right to Buy sales claimed certain injury payments as eligible expenditure made by each local authority can found in Table 685 at: through the top-up grant. We are in discussions with https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- the fire authority on this issue. tables-on-social-housing-sales Figures for sales by private registered Piers: Eastbourne providers (housing associations) are not available at a local authority level.

Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Solar Power Communities and Local Government under what cost heading Eastbourne pier has been granted money to help in its reconstruction. [207426] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many planning Penny Mordaunt: The Government announced that applications were made for solar energy generation on up to £2 million will be made available to Eastbourne farmland in each of the last three years. [207710] council to help them recover from the fire at Eastbourne pier. HM Treasury will provide additional funding as Kris Hopkins: In publishing our new planning guidance required and this will be agreed as part of the 2014-15 in March, we took the opportunity to make clear to supplementary estimates. The £2 million funding to local councils the factors they should consider in relation Easbourne council will be used to support local businesses to solar farms. These include making effective use of and traders. None of the funding will be provided for brownfield land and steering proposals away from good the rebuilding of the pier itself, which, I understand, is quality agricultural land. We also underlined that visual covered by the pier owner’s insurance. impacts need particular attention. 577W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 578W

To help focus these developments on brownfield sites, has been introduced by the Anti-Social Behaviour, we are consulting on increasing the amount of solar Crime and Policing Act 2014 been in force at the that can be installed on commercial and industrial relevant time. [207063] buildings without the need for a planning application. This Department does not gather statistics on the James Brokenshire: A full impact assessment has number of planning applications for solar energy been conducted on Framework Decision 2002/584/JHA. developments by land use type. However, the Department Details of this assessment can be found in Command of Energy and Climate Change’s Renewable Energy Paper 8897 at: Planning Database (RESTATS) includes information https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ on a range of renewable energy projects above 0.01 attachment_data/file/326698/41670_Cm_8897_Accessible.pdf megawatts, including applications for solar energy published on 3 July 2014. developments. The database tracks the progress of potential The Commission has been clear during negotiations new projects from inception, through planning, construction that a bilateral treaty between the UK and the EU on and operational stages, and can be accessed at: any matters falling within the scope of the block opt-out https://restats.decc.gov.uk/cms/planning-database is not feasible. Furthermore, on 16 January 2013, President Barroso responded to a European parliamentary question from Daniel Hannan MEP on this matter and stated INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT that West Africa “the Commission sees no room for the conclusion of international agreements between the EU and the United Kingdom on such matters.” Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what action her Department The Government has not undertaken an assessment is taking to help tackle the ebola epidemic in West of the number of extraditions of British nationals from the UK under the European arrest warrant that would Africa; and if she will make a statement. [208061] not have proceeded had the proportionality test been in Lynne Featherstone: The current outbreak of Ebola place at the relevant time. The proportionality bar is poses a serious public health risk to West Africa and is intended to ensure extradition is barred in the most deeply concerning. The UK is taking a leading role in minor cases, irrespective of the nationality of the person working with the countries affected and with the concerned. international community to ensure that the outbreak is contained and help reaches those in need. In total, over Extradition: EU Countries £25 million of British funding is supporting the global effort to contain this disease. This includes £5 million of Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home new direct funding to help partners working on the Department with reference to the answer of 14 May ground like the WHO, Red Cross and Médecins Sans 2014, Official Report, column 620W, on arrest Frontières? to treat victims and prevent the spread of warrants, in addition to Slovakia, Latvia, Belgium and Ebola in West Africa. Over £20 million of UK support the Czech Republic, which other EU member states is helping contain Ebola through commitments to retain an absolute bar on extraditing nationals in multilateral institutions (the World Bank and the African non-European Arrest Warrant extradition cases. Development Bank) and the EU. [201018]

James Brokenshire: In non-European arrest warrant HOME DEPARTMENT cases, the following EU member states have an absolute bar on extraditing their own nationals: British Nationality Austria Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Belgium Home Department on what date section 65 of the Czech Republic Immigration Act 2014 will be brought into force. France [207807] Germany Greece James Brokenshire: Section 65 of the 2014 Act will Latvia insert new registration provisions into the British Nationality Act 1981 for people born to British fathers before 1 July Luxembourg 2006. Slovakia The 2014 Act is being implemented in phases to Slovenia ensure the provisions are brought into force in an orderly Spain and effective manner. We have not yet set a commencement In addition, Finland and Sweden have an absolute date for section 65. bar to extraditing their own nationals to countries other Extradition than Norway and Iceland.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for Extradition: EU Law the Home Department what estimate she has made of the number of extraditions of British nationals from Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK under the European arrest warrant that would the Home Department what assessment she has made not have proceeded had the proportionality test that of the possibility of the UK concluding a bilateral 579W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 580W treaty with the EU on extradition instead of remaining James Brokenshire: The specific information that has bound by Framework Decision 2002/584/JHA. [207061] been requested is not held centrally. The Home Office does publish statistics on extensions James Brokenshire: A full impact assessment has of stay in tables ex_01 to ex_02_o within the ‘Immigration been conducted on Framework Decision 2002/584/JHA. Statistics’ release. A copy of the latest release, “Immigration Details of this assessment can be found in Command Statistics April to June 2014” is available from the Paper 8897 at: Library of the House and at: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ attachment_data/file/326698/41670_Cm_8897_Accessible.pdf series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release published on 3 July 2014. The Commission has been clear during negotiations that a bilateral treaty between the UK and the EU on Members: Correspondence any matters falling within the scope of the block opt-out is not feasible. Furthermore, on 16 January 2013, President Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Barroso responded to a European parliamentary question the Home Department when she plans to reply to the from Daniel Hannan MEP on this matter and stated letter to her dated 14 July 2014 from the right hon. that Member for Manchester, Gorton with regards to Dr “the Commission sees no room for the conclusion of international M. Naz. [207851] agreements between the EU and the United Kingdom on such matters.” The Government has not undertaken an assessment James Brokenshire: A Home Office official wrote to of the number of extraditions of British nationals from the right hon. Member on 28 July 2014. the UK under the European arrest warrant that would not have proceeded had the proportionality test been in Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for place at the relevant time. The proportionality bar is the Home Department when she plans to reply to the intended to ensure extradition is barred in the most letter to her dated 22 July 2014 from the right minor cases, irrespective of the nationality of the person hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regards to concerned. Mr Kenny Edobor Friday Ake. [207852]

Human Trafficking James Brokenshire: We understand that this question relates to correspondence dated 2 July 2014. A Home Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for the Office official wrote to the right hon. Member on Home Department what the (a) nationality and (b) 18 July 2014. gender was of each suspected victim of trafficking referred to the Trafficking Victim Support Scheme Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for operated by the Salvation Army in July 2014; in which the Home Department when she plans to reply to the (a) region and (b) county, each of the suspected victims letter to her dated 12 June 2014 from the right hon. was found; which agency referred each person to the Member for Manchester, Gorton with regards to Mr E. scheme; in which town the shelter was in which they M. Bendoki. [207853] were placed for the relevant period; and what contact is maintained with each victim after he or she leaves the James Brokenshire: I wrote to the right hon. Member shelter to ensure he or she is not re-trafficked. [207591] on 4 September 2014. Karen Bradley: The data requested for July 2014 can be found on the Salvation Army’s website, at: Police: Training http://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/uki/ Anti_Human_Trafficking_Latest_Report Monthly reports are published on the website providing Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the information on victims that have been supported. In the Home Department what assessment she has made of interests of the victim’s safety, only the region in which the cyber skills of police forces; and what steps she is the victim was encountered will be provided. taking to improve those skills. [207635] Upon leaving Government-funded care, a victim is provided with tailored support either to safely return Karen Bradley: Tackling cybercrime is one of the key home or integrate in the UK, if they are eligible to do objectives of the UK’s Cyber Security Strategy. The so. Once a victim leaves the service, no formal mechanisms Government has supported this with £860 million of exist to maintain contact with them. However, ongoing investment over five years through the National Cyber support of victims is being considered as part of the Security Programme (NCSP). We have so far committed review of the National Referral Mechanism. £70 million of NCSP funding in improving law enforcement agencies’ ability to respond to this threat, including setting up the National Cyber Crime Unit in the National Immigration Crime Agency, and cyber teams in each of the Regional Organised Crime Units. We are also supporting the Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for the training of police officers and investigators in local Home Department how many individuals have been forces in England and Wales, through the development granted limited leave to remain with no recourse to of new online and classroom-based training packages public funds in each year since 2003. [207459] by the College of Policing for 5,000 officers. 581W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 582W

Radicalism A recent report from Barclays that looked at the NATO summit and its impact on Wales concluded that: Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the “A successful Summit will create direct and indirect business Home Department how many organisations have opportunities for Welsh companies for many years to come”. received funding from her Department to deliver the I want to build a lasting legacy for Wales following Channel programme in each of the last five years; and the summit. As part of this, the Celtic Manor will host a what assessment she has made of the effectiveness of UK investment summit in November which will showcase the programmes delivered by each such organisation. Wales as a great place to invest. [207904]

James Brokenshire: Channel exists in every local authority Pay area in England and Wales—the programme was rolled out nationally in April 2012. Each of the nine police Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales regions receives funding to support the Channel programme. what the (a) highest and (b) lowest full-time equivalent In most areas, the local authority and other partners salary paid by his Department in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12, work effectively together to support people at risk of (iii) 2012-13, (iv) 2013-14 and (v) 2014-15; and if he will radicalisation and getting drawn into terrorism. In order make a statement. [208294] to ensure that all partnerships work consistently well, we are placing Channel on a statutory footing to secure Alun Cairns: The following figures (which include the effective local co-operation that is required in all allowances) are all full-time equivalent salaries. As the areas. Wales Office has a relatively small staff complement, to protect the confidentiality of individuals, the highest Unmanned Air Vehicles and lowest full-time equivalent salaries are shown via reference to a range. Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many quadcopters or similar 2010-11: remote controlled devices her Department has Highest (FTE): £80,000 to £85,000 purchased; for what purpose such quadcopters were so Lowest (FTE): £10,000 to £15,000 purchased; and at what cost to the public purse such 2011-12: quadcopters were so purchased. [208031] Highest (FTE): £80,000 to £85,000 Karen Bradley: No quadcopters or other designs of Lowest (FTE): £10,000 to £15,000 unmanned air vehicles have been purchased by the 2012-13: Home Office. Highest (FTE): £80,000 to £85,000 Lowest (FTE): £10,000 to £15,000 2013-14: WALES Highest (FTE): £80,000 to £85,000 Energy Lowest (FTE): £10,000 to £15,000 2014-15: Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Highest (FTE): £80,000 to £85,000 what steps he is taking to reduce energy costs in his Lowest (FTE): £10,000 to £15,000. Department; and if he will make a statement. [208350]

Alun Cairns: The Department has a number of energy Television efficiency measures in place and all staff are made aware of our sustainability requirements. The Department’s Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Cardiff office is a modern building with built in energy how much his Department spent on the purchase of efficiency measures. televisions in (a) 2013 and (b) 2014 to date. [208324] NATO: Newport Alun Cairns: The Wales Office did not purchase any Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for televisions in 2013 or 2014 to date. Wales what estimate he has made of the benefits to the Welsh economy of holding the NATO summit in Newport. [208313] DEFENCE Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the potential Challenger Tanks financial benefits to Wales arising from holding the NATO Summit in Newport and Cardiff. [208174] Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Crabb: The NATO summit has shown the Defence how much his Department will spend in each world that Wales is an excellent location to invest, set up year under the Challenger II Life Extension programme. a business or host world-class events. Many Welsh [208108] businesses, including those in the tourism and hospitality sectors, have benefitted from Wales’ successful hosting Mr Dunne: I am withholding the information as its of the summit. disclosure would prejudice commercial interests. 583W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 584W

Defence: Procurement This incident only impacted the latest batch of engines in production. No engines from this latest production Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for batch were destined for installation within any UK Defence what progress has been made towards meeting aircraft planned for delivery. All suspect vane arms have the assumed savings in the (a) Complex Weapons now been removed from the F35 inventory and all Programme and (b) Submarine Enterprise Performance engines waiting to be delivered have been replaced with programme; and how much has been saved through new vane arms. each such programme to date. [207919]

Mr Dunne: The Complex Weapons Programme is on Saudi Arabia track to deliver significant cost benefits, providing greater flexibility and responsiveness to changing requirements, Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for and supporting the industrial skills and capabilities Defence how many (a) civilian staff of his Department needed to deliver Operational Advantage and Freedom based in the UK, (b) military personnel based in the of Action. Financial benefits of £196 million have so UK, (c) civilian staff of his Department based in far been achieved against a forecast of £1.2 billion. Saudi Arabia and (d) military personnel based in The Submarine Enterprise Performance Programme Saudi Arabia were employed by the (i) Saudi Arabian is also making good progress, with the signature of two National Guard Communications Project and (ii) of the three Foundation Contracts, the establishment of Ministry of Defence Saudi Armed Forces Project on 1 a robust benefits delivery and audit process, and the April 2014; and what the function is of each of those formation of the Submarine Portfolio Office providing projects. [207819] a coherent joint programming function across the Enterprise. Financial benefits of £356 million have so Mr Dunne: The number of civilian and military staff far been achieved against a forecast of £900 million. based in the UK and in Saudi Arabia working on both the Saudi Arabian National Guard Communications Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for (SANGCOM) Project and the Ministry of Defence Defence whether he plans to let the contracts for the (MOD) Saudi Armed Forces Projects (MODSAP) on 1 managed service providers (MSP) before the end of April 2014 is shown in the table. The Saudi Arabian September 2014; and if he will place relationship with Government reimburses the UK MOD for these staff the services and Defence Equipment and Support. costs and there is, therefore, no cost to the UK taxpayer. [208062] Manpower number as Mr Dunne: We continue to make excellent progress at 1 April 2014 SANGCOM project MODSAP on the competition for the managed service providers UK-based civilian 169 (MSPs) and expect to place the first contracts in the staff next few weeks. UK-based military 042 The MSPs will have an important role in supporting staff the transformation of Defence Equipment and Support Saudi Arabia-based 28 32 (DE&S) into a world class programme management civilian staff organisation, capable of delivering the best possible Saudi Arabia-based 20 50 equipment and support to our armed forces. Strengthening military staff the relationship between the Service Commands and DE&S is a key aspect of the transformation programme. The function of the SANGCOM Project is to support the United Kingdom’s commitment to the Kingdom of Domestic Visits Saudi Arabia by acquiring and supporting modem communications capabilities for the Saudi Arabian National Guard. Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what domestic visits he and his predecessor The function of the Ministry of Defence Saudi Armed have made since January 2013; and what the purpose of Forces Projects is to support the United Kingdom’s each such visit was. [208176] commitment to the defence of Saudi Arabia through the supply of modem military aircraft, naval vessels, Mr Brazier: This information could be provided only weapons and associated support services to the Saudi at disproportionate cost. Details of all ministerial overseas armed forces. travel is published on a quarterly basis.

Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft Warships

Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he was made aware by his US counterpart Defence what process the Royal Navy uses when of the suspension of F35 engine deliveries as a result of deciding the names of new vessels; and whether names subgrade titanium. [208244] of UK cities can be used for the Type 26. [208052]

Mr Dunne: The Joint Strike Fighter Programme Office Mr Dunne: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I was notified in May 2014 of a potential problem with gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, regard to the quality of the titanium used in the manufacture Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), on 5 September of a component, a vane arm, within the F35 engine. 2014, Official Report, column 363W. 585W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 586W

As a new class of Royal Navy warship, the naming of Mr Gibb: The Department for Education has already the Type 26 Frigates will follow a theme, and this is made excellent progress in reducing its energy costs by under consideration. The Ships’ Names and Badges £1.4 million per annum since 2009-10 to 2013-14. This Committee has noted the proposal to use names of is despite the cost of energy increasing during the same UK cities. period. The Department has achieved this primarily through low and no cost energy efficiency measures, a reduction EDUCATION in the size of the Department’s estate and a small number of capital investments. These measures have Apprentices also contributed to a reduction in associated greenhouse gas emissions of 44% during the same period. Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Plans to reduce energy costs further include: continuing Education what recent assessment she has made of the to refine building (energy) management system programmes; role of schools in encouraging pupils to consider conducting annual audits of all key plant and equipment apprenticeships post-16. [207983] to identify cost-effective options for asset replacement and enhancement; staff awareness campaigns; monitoring Nick Boles: Schools are legally required to secure and targeting unexpected building energy profiles through independent careers guidance for 12- to 18-year-olds automated meter reading devices across the estate; and that includes information on the full range of education estate rationalisation and co-location. and training options, including apprenticeships. In 2013, Ofsted’s study of the early implementation Languages: Education of this duty found that apprenticeships were rarely promoted effectively, especially in schools with sixth Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for forms. Education what steps she is taking to broaden the The Government has published new statutory guidance number of foreign language subjects available to state and departmental advice on careers guidance and school students in secondary education. [208097] inspiration, informed by the Ofsted study, which is effective from September 2014. This provides a clear Mr Gibb: Maintained secondary schools must teach framework and practical support for schools to help a modern foreign language to all pupils at key stage 3 them inspire their pupils about the options open to (ages 11-14). The choice of which language or languages them. The guidance is clear that schools should give to teach is for schools to make, though the great majority employers and other providers delivering apprenticeships of secondary schools teach one or more of French, the opportunity to inform pupils directly about what German or Spanish, with small numbers teaching an they offer. It emphasises that apprenticeships and university additional language or languages. offer two equally effective routes to a successful career. Awarding bodies determine which languages they Ofsted is now giving careers guidance a higher priority will offer as GCSE qualifications. Schools decide whether in school inspections and we will work with them to to enter pupils for any particular language GCSE. The monitor carefully the impact of the statutory guidance English Baccalaureate is already encouraging more young and the wider improvements that the Government has people to take a language at GCSE level. Take-up of a put in place. modern foreign language by key stage 4 pupils in England Domestic Visits increased by over 20% between 2012 and 2013.

Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Special Educational Needs Education pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2014, Official Report, column 621W, on official visits, what Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for domestic visits she and her predecessor have made Education pursuant to the answer of 1 July 2014, since January 2013; and what the purpose of each such Official Report, column 551W,on pupils: disadvantaged, visit was. [208296] whether her Department holds records on how much of the Pupil Premium is used to fund support for those Mr Gibb: The Department for Education does not pupils with special educational needs who are economically hold a list of domestic visits in the format requested. deprived, looked after by the local authority or who Information about visits, meetings and events held in have left care via adoption or other routes. [207080] the diary is not set out in a way that would enable a list to be compiled without exceeding the cost threshold. Mr Timpson: The information requested could be Domestic visits attended by the current and former collated only at disproportionate cost. Secretary of State would include attendance at events, visits to schools and other institutions as well as external meetings held from May 2010. To compile a list of all domestic visits stating the purpose of each in an accessible JUSTICE format would therefore exceed the cost threshold. Energy Legal Aid

Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 19. Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State what steps she is taking to reduce energy costs in her for Justice what assessment he has made of the effectiveness Department; and if she will make a statement. [208339] of recent changes to legal aid. [905251] 587W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 588W

Mr Vara: The Ministry of Justice and the Legal Aid from across the public, private and voluntary sectors so Agency keep the legal aid scheme under constant review, that we can deliver better rehabilitation support to both in terms of expenditure and the impact of reforms. more offenders, reduce the number of potential victims The Government is currently undertaking a review of and make our communities safer. For the first time in the operation of the mandatory telephone gateway. It recent history, virtually every offender released from will undertake a full post-implementation review of the custody will receive statutory supervision and rehabilitation legal aid provisions within the Legal Aid, Sentencing in the community. and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (LASPO) within three to five years of implementation. Magistrates: Training Prison Population Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will place in the Library a copy of the National 20. Andy McDonald: To ask the Secretary of State Annual Report of Magistrate Training mentioned in for Justice What forecasts the Government has made of the Quarter 3 performance report of the Judicial future trends in the prison population. [905252] College; and whether subsequent training reports will be published. [207996] Andrew Selous: Projections of the prison population are published annually in November. We are currently Mike Penning: This report on magistrates training is seeing a higher population driven by changes in the case an internal document and is provided for judicial monitoring mix, including more sex offenders being sentenced to purposes only. I am therefore unable to comply with custody. Updated projections will be published on your request. 27 November. As these are National Statistics, I cannot The Judicial College delivers a programme of core comment on what they will show. courses and prepares training packs for magistrates I can assure the House we will always have enough which are delivered under the direction of Magistrates’ prison capacity for those committed by the courts. We Area Training Committees (MATCs). The college has currently have over 2,000 spare prison places, a further a statutory responsibility to prepare the National Summary 2,000 by April, Wrexham in 2017, and by the end of this of MATC Annual Reports for the Lord Chief Justice, Parliament will have 3,000 more adult male places than as Head of the Judiciary, and its purpose is to satisfy we inherited. him that magistrates training is being appropriately addressed. The most recent report (for 2012/13) shows Prison Places the intended learning was delivered and that magistrates felt it met their needs. The Judicial College publishes a 21. Martin Vickers: To ask the Secretary of State for report on the training it delivers to the judiciary: Justice what steps his Department is taking to ensure http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications/review-of-activities- that there will be sufficient prison places available for 2012-2013/ those offenders given custodial sentences over the next and magistrates’ training is also covered in the Lord 10 years. [905253] Chief Justice’s Annual Report 2013 http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications/lcj-report-2013/ Andrew Selous: We will always have enough prison capacity for those committed by the courts and are The Judicial College is part of the Judicial Office committed to increasing overall capacity by more than (JO) which supports the judiciary in discharging its 3,000 new places by 2017. responsibilities under the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. The report was mentioned in the College Activities Decisions on the future size of the prison estate will Report (which is publicly available) to confirm it had reflect the current and projected prison population. been done. Youth Custody Sexual Offences: Rehabilitation 22. Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent assessment he has made of the Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for potential effect of his plans for youth custody on (a) Justice what studies his Department has commissioned young children and (b) girls. [905254] on the relative efficacy of prison-based treatment as against treatment in the community for sex offenders Andrew Selous: We have considered the impacts of convicted of similar offences. [207844] our Transforming YouthCustody proposals on different groups. We believe that secure colleges have the potential Andrew Selous: It is difficult to compare the efficacy to deliver improved educational and rehabilitative outcomes of programmes delivered in prison and in the community, for all the young people they will accommodate. as at the moment they are different programmes and the sexual offender populations accessing treatment in the Probation Service two settings may also differ in a way that could affect comparison. 23. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for The National Offender Management Service’s (NOMS) Justice what the Government’s strategy is on the future programmes delivered to sexual offenders across prison of the probation service. [905255] and probation have been developed in line with the available evidence to address the needs of this group. Andrew Selous: Overall reoffending rates have barely They have been designed in accordance with the principles changed over the last decade. Under our Transforming of effective intervention, and have all been accredited Rehabilitation Reforms, we will draw on the best services by an independent body of experts, the Correctional 589W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 590W

Services Accreditation and Advisory Panel. The latest Middle East published reconviction outcome study for the NOMS Core Sex Offender Treatment Programme (SOTP) delivered Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for in prison was conducted in 2003 (Friendship, Mann & Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is Beech, 2003. taking to support the Israeli government in its campaign NOMS are working towards the development of a against Hamas. [208099] new programme for sexual offenders which will be delivered across prison and in the community. As part Mr Ellwood: Throughout Operation Protective Edge, of this development, NOMS will be commissioning we condemned Hamas’ indiscriminate attacks on Israeli research into the best methodology to evaluate this civilians and reaffirmed our support to Israel’s right to programme as it is rolled out across both settings. self defence. We have also repeatedly made clear that Hamas must renounce violence, recognise Israel and Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice accept previously signed agreements. Hamas need to be (1) what the reoffending rate is of sex offenders who part of any ceasefire negotiations in response to the have undergone (a) the sex offender treatment programme current Gaza crisis—we support Egyptian-led efforts to at HMP Northumberland (formerly Acklington) and this end. Today, the UK has three objectives—to maintain (b) the Northumbria Sex Offender Groupwork programme a ceasefire, to alleviate humanitarian suffering, and to in the community; [207845] get meaningful negotiations underway so that we can (2) what the national reoffending rate is of sex offenders begin to address the underlying causes of the conflict who have undergone the sex offender treatment programme on both sides, which is the only hope of breaking this (a) in prison and (b) in the community. [207846] cycle of violence and devastation once and for all. We stand ready to play our full part in supporting a settlement. Andrew Selous: The Ministry of Justice publishes proven re-offending rates for adult and juvenile offenders Russia on a quarterly basis. However, these rates cannot be provided for offenders who have undergone the sex Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for offender treatment programme in prison or in the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions community as the information held centrally on re-offending he has had with his European counterparts on further does not separately identify these offenders. sanctions against Russia. [208107]

Mr Lidington: Since the start of the Ukraine crisis, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Diplomatic Service Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), and I have regularly discussed Russia, including sanctions, Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for with European colleagues. Most recently, further sanctions Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is were discussed at the Gymnich on 29 and 30 August, taking to protect staff working in HM embassies from the European Council on 30 August, and at the NATO security threats. [208094] summit in Wales on 4 and 5 September. Saudi Arabia Mr Lidington: Staff in our overseas posts face a range of security threats, which are currently running at a historically high level. We monitor the risks carefully, Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and manage them rigorously using a mix of threat and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he assessment, security advice, staff training and provision has made to the Saudi Arabian government over its of specialist security equipment. financial and logistical support for Islamic State terrorists in Syria. [207997] Estonia Mr Ellwood: The UK and Saudi Arabia maintain a Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for close dialogue on a broad range of counter terrorism Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent issues, including terrorist financing and logistical support. assessment he has made of the strength of business The Saudi Government is acutely aware of the threat relations between the UK and Estonia. [208098] from terrorist groups such as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) to their own and global security and Mr Lidington: Business relations between the UK they have been at the forefront of efforts to combat the and Estonia are stronger than ever and continue to threat facing us all. Saudi Arabia has a comprehensive improve. In 2013 the UK was the eighth largest exporter set of laws in place to prevent terrorist financing, which to Estonia, totalling 571.1 million EUR or 4.2% of they vigorously enforce. total Estonian imports. This share has more than doubled since 2010. In 2013 the top UK exports were: machinery Sri Lanka and mechanical appliances; food and beverages; vehicles, aircraft, vessels; transport equipment; mineral products; Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for chemicals or allied industries. In 2013 Estonian exports Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he to the UK totalled 294.7 million EUR or 2.4% of plans to take through the Commonwealth and UN to Estonian exports. Through joint planning and activity, secure Sri Lanka’s compliance with the UN Human UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) are continuing to Rights Committee’s resolution on the war crimes and deepen their partnership with their Estonian counterparts. civil rights investigation. [208355] 591W Written Answers9 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 592W

Mr Swire: We welcome the passing of the UN Human an active role and offering significant contributions to Rights Council resolution on Sri Lanka on 27 March, NATO efforts. As part of reassurance measures, the which established an international investigation into UK is contributing four Typhoons to NATO’s Baltic alleged violations and abuses of international law on Air Policing mission and a Sentry E-3D aircraft, as part both sides of the military conflict in Sri Lanka, in of the NATO Airborne Early Warning and Control addition to calling for progress on human rights and Force. We are also augmenting NATO exercises in reconciliation. The UK was a main co-sponsor of the which we were already participating and contributing to resolution and will continue to give full support to the new ones. At the NATO Summit on 5 September, the Office of UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Prime Minister stated that the UK would always uphold (OHCHR) in establishing an international investigation, Article 5 commitments to collective self-defence and as mandated by the UN Human Rights Council. expressed the hope that a multi-national spearhead The UN resolution calls upon the Sri Lankan force deployable anywhere in the world in just 2 to government to co-operate with the OHCHR in the 5 days would be formed. implementation of the resolution. We continue to urge Mr David Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sri Lankan government to co-operate with the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment OHCHR, and to view the international investigation as he has made of whether the actions of the Russian an opportunity to address the grievances of the past in Federation in relation to Ukraine are compliant with the spirit of lasting peace and reconciliation. We also the provisions of the Budapest Memorandum on continue to call for the Commonwealth Ministerial Security Assurances. [208218] Action Group, and the Commonwealth Secretary-General, to use their leverage to encourage Sri Lanka’s co-operation. Mr Lidington: The situation in Ukraine remains of very grave concern to the UK, and Russia’s actions have Ukraine: Russia presented the most serious security crisis in Europe since the end of the Cold War. With international Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for partners we have unreservedly condemned all illegal Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contingency interventions by Russia in Ukraine. In particular, the plans are in place for the eventuality that Russia UK does not, and will not, recognise the illegal annexation continues to place troops in Ukraine. [208093] of Crimea by Russia. This violates the UN Charter, is illegal under international law and breaches the Mr Lidington: The situation in eastern Ukraine is of commitments Russia made in the Budapest Memorandum. grave concern. The 18 August European Council That is why Russia has been isolated in the Security condemned the increasing inflows of fighters and weapons Council and in the wider international community. We from the territory of the Russian Federation into eastern have, as required under the the terms of the memorandum, Ukraine as well as the aggression by Russian armed consulted the US frequently since the occupation and forces on Ukrainian soil. It called upon the Russian annexation of Crimea and destabilisation of the east by Federation to immediately withdraw all its military Russian-backed separatists. Both the US and UK continue forces from Ukraine. In response to the ongoing action to ensure that Russia pays a price through sanctions for against Ukraine’s territorial integrity the EU has imposed the annexation of Crimea and its incursion into south- sectoral measures against Russia in addition to measures eastern Ukraine; we will maintain our pressure on already imposed in response to the illegal annexation of Russia to use its influence to de-escalate the situation in Crimea. We called on the European Commission to the east. continue work on further measures to act as a further The Budapest Memorandum does not specify any deterrent to Russia and to ensure we are prepared to military commitments. In this Memorandum, in return apply greater costs if Russia continues on its path, this for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons, Russia joined work is progressing swiftly in Brussels. On 5 September, the UK and US in reaffirming their obligation to ″refrain The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth from the threat or use of force against the territorial Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymead integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) expressed determination none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine to impose further sanctions in response to Russia’s except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with actions in Ukraine if a ceasefire was not reached and the Charter of the United Nations.″ Russia is in clear upheld. breach of those commitments as well as a number of NATO has also been working to help strengthen other international obligations and commitments, including Ukraine’s security capability, and undertaken a number under the UN Charter and the OSCE Helsinki Final of reassurance measures for Allies. The UK is playing Act. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 9 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 741 JUSTICE—continued Court Closures...... 741 Probation Service...... 756 Court Estates Reform ...... 753 Reoffending ...... 749 Courts Rebuilding Programme...... 752 Reoffending ...... 754 Criminal Convictions...... 746 Restorative Justice...... 753 HMP Northumberland ...... 744 Topical Questions ...... 756 Insurance Fraud...... 749 Transforming Rehabilitation Programme...... 751 Open Prisons...... 754 Treason ...... 746 Prisons: Books ...... 742 Victims of Crime...... 743 Prisons: Violence...... 755 Victims of Crime...... 747 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 9 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 33WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Gifting of Equipment ...... 33WS AFFAIRS...... 34WS Bovine TB...... 34WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 33WS HEALTH...... 35WS Climate Change ...... 33WS Local Authority Funding (Public Health) ...... 35WS PETITION

Tuesday 9 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION Access to Court Transcripts...... 11P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Monday 8 September 2014—[Continued.]

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 523W EDUCATION—continued Big Society Network ...... 523W GCE A-level...... 520W Domestic Visits ...... 523W GCE AS-level ...... 520W Energy...... 524W Mandarin: GCSE...... 522W Government Departments: Cybercrime ...... 524W Science: Teachers ...... 522W Government Departments: ICT ...... 524W Special Educational Needs...... 523W Radiation Exposure ...... 524W Unemployment: Older People ...... 525W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 512W Biofuels: Imports ...... 512W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 526W Energy: Billing ...... 512W Brass Bands ...... 526W Energy: Meters...... 512W Domestic Visits ...... 526W Fuel Poverty...... 514W EU Law...... 526W National Anthems...... 527W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 501W Pay...... 527W Iraq...... 501W Television...... 528W Overseas Aid...... 501W West Africa ...... 501W EDUCATION...... 515W Academies: Closures ...... 515W TREASURY ...... 503W Armed Forces: Cadets...... 517W Banks: Telecommunications...... 503W Chemistry: Teachers...... 517W Consumers: Protection...... 503W Children: Abuse ...... 518W Corporation Tax ...... 504W Children: Protection...... 519W Credit: Interest Rates ...... 504W Children’s Centres ...... 519W Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation .. 505W EU Law...... 520W Fuels: Excise Duties ...... 506W Free School Meals...... 520W Revenue and Customs...... 506W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Revenue and Customs: South West...... 506W EU Law...... 509W Self-employed: National Insurance Contributions . 507W Industrial Health and Safety...... 509W Sovereignty: Scotland...... 507W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 509W Tax Avoidance ...... 507W Lead: Industrial Health and Safety ...... 510W VAT: Imports ...... 508W Unemployment: Brighton ...... 511W Universal Credit...... 511W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 508W Work Programme...... 511W Carer’s Allowance ...... 508W WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 9 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 556W EDUCATION—continued Members: Correspondence ...... 556W Languages: Education...... 586W Special Educational Needs...... 586W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 568W Biofuels: Imports ...... 568W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 555W Business: Billing...... 569W Domestic Visits ...... 555W Construction...... 569W Members: Correspondence ...... 556W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 569W Nuclear Power...... 556W Local Enterprise Partnerships: East of England .... 570W Television...... 556W Pay...... 570W Students: Loans ...... 571W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Textiles...... 571W AFFAIRS...... 557W Trade Agreements ...... 571W Biofuels...... 557W Cetaceans: Faroe Islands...... 557W CABINET OFFICE...... 566W Dogs ...... 557W Cybercrime ...... 566W Domestic Visits ...... 558W Immigrants: Russia ...... 566W Food: Crime...... 559W Pay...... 567W Horse Meat...... 559W Written Questions ...... 567W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 559W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 572W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 589W Affordable Housing: Construction...... 572W Diplomatic Service...... 589W Affordable Housing: Rural Areas...... 572W Estonia...... 589W Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty ...... 573W Middle East ...... 590W Council Tax ...... 573W Russia ...... 590W Council Tax Reduction Schemes ...... 573W Saudi Arabia...... 590W Fire Services...... 574W Sri Lanka ...... 590W Fire Services: Pensions ...... 575W Ukraine: Russia ...... 591W Piers: Eastbourne...... 575W Planning...... 576W HEALTH...... 544W Right to Buy Scheme: North East...... 576W Aspirin...... 544W Solar Power...... 576W Dialysis Machines ...... 544W Disease Control ...... 545W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 553W Food: Crime...... 546W Arts...... 553W General Dental Council ...... 546W Correspondence ...... 553W General Practitioners ...... 547W EU Law...... 554W Health Professions: Training ...... 548W Football ...... 554W Health Services ...... 548W Football: Qatar ...... 554W Health Services: Worcestershire ...... 549W Museums and Galleries...... 554W Hearing Aids...... 549W Pay...... 555W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 549W Viral Haemorrhagic Disease: West Africa ...... 555W Inflammatory Bowel Disease ...... 549W Irritable Bowel Syndrome ...... 550W DEFENCE...... 582W Medical Treatments...... 550W Challenger Tanks ...... 582W Medicine: Education...... 550W Defence: Procurement...... 583W Members: Correspondence ...... 551W Domestic Visits ...... 583W Prescription Drugs...... 551W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 583W Radiography ...... 551W Saudi Arabia...... 584W Smoke and Chimney Gases...... 552W Warships ...... 584W Varicose Veins...... 552W

EDUCATION...... 585W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 577W Apprentices...... 585W British Nationality ...... 577W Domestic Visits ...... 585W Extradition...... 577W Energy...... 585W Extradition: EU Countries...... 578W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued TRANSPORT—continued Extradition: EU Law ...... 578W Railways: Greater Manchester ...... 562W Human Trafficking ...... 579W Railways: Kingsnorth...... 562W Immigration...... 579W Railways: North of England ...... 563W Members: Correspondence ...... 580W Roads: Accidents ...... 564W Police: Training ...... 580W Written Questions ...... 563W Radicalism ...... 581W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 581W TREASURY ...... 540W Business: Taxation ...... 540W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 565W Child Benefit...... 540W Carol Mills...... 565W Listed Buildings: VAT ...... 541W Pay...... 565W Mobile Phones ...... 541W Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy ...... 565W National Savings and Investments...... 541W Objects in Lieu of Tax...... 542W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 577W Oil: Excise Duties...... 543W West Africa ...... 577W Thames Tideway Tunnel ...... 543W WALES...... 581W JUSTICE...... 586W Energy...... 581W Legal Aid ...... 586W NATO: Newport...... 581W Magistrates: Training ...... 588W Pay...... 582W Prison Places...... 587W Television...... 582W Prison Population ...... 587W Probation Service...... 587W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 529W Sexual Offences: Rehabilitation...... 588W Apprentices...... 529W Youth Custody...... 587W Employment: Hearing Impairment ...... 529W Flexible Support Fund...... 530W PRIME MINISTER ...... 567W Incapacity Benefit ...... 530W National Security Council...... 567W Independent Living Fund ...... 534W Radicalism: Wales...... 568W Jobcentre Plus ...... 534W New Enterprise Allowance...... 534W TRANSPORT ...... 559W Personal Independence Payment...... 535W A65 ...... 559W Poverty Truth Commission ...... 535W Crewe-Derby Railway Line ...... 560W Social Security Benefits...... 535W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency...... 560W Social Security Benefits: Greater Manchester ...... 535W East Croydon Station...... 560W Telecommunications: Disability ...... 537W Energy...... 560W Training ...... 538W Level Crossings: Accidents...... 561W Welfare State: Northern Ireland...... 538W Network Rail ...... 561W Welfare State: Reform ...... 539W Railway Stations: Accidents ...... 562W Work Capability Assessments ...... 540W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 16 September 2014

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 585 Tuesday No. 35 9 September 2014

CONTENTS

Tuesday 9 September 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 741] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Afghanistan [Col. 763] Statement—(Mr Philip Hammond)

Hallett Report [Col. 779] Statement—(Mrs Villiers)

Recall of Elected Representatives [Col. 792] Bill presented, and read the First time

Affordable Housing Contributions (Ten Unit Threshold) [Col. 792] Bill presented, and read the First time

Service Charges, Gratuities and Cover Charges (Hospitality, Leisure and Service Sectors) (Statutory Code) [Col. 793] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Andrew Percy)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

High Speed Rail (London – West Midlands) Bill [Col. 798] Motions—(Mr Goodwill)—agreed to

Regulatory Reform [Col. 817] Motion—(Norman Lamb)—on a Division, agreed to

Transport for London Bill [Lords] [Col. 840] Motion for Second Reading—(Bob Blackman)—agreed to

Buckinghamshire County Council (Filming on Highways) Bill [Lords] [Col. 871] Motion for Second Reading—(Mrs Gillan)—agreed to

North Wales Police and Anonymous Blog Site [Col. 881] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Nursery Schools [Col. 215WH] Asbestos Removal [Col. 235WH] Cyprus [Col. 244WH] Superfast Broadband (Urban Areas) [Col. 265WH] Money Transfer Organisations [Col. 274WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 33WS]

Petition [Col. 11P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 501W] [see index inside back page]