Transcript of Oral History Interview with Vuong Huy Thuan

Oral history interviews of the Vietnam Era Oral History Project

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Version 3 August 20, 2018 Vương Huy Thuần Narrator

Trần Thị Minh Phước Interviewer

November 25, 2018 Minneapolis, Minnesota

Vương Huy Thuần -TV Trần Thị Minh Phước -PT

PT: My name is Trần Thị Minh Phước. I’m going to conduct an interview with Vương Huy Thuần in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It’s part of a Minnesota Historical Society Vietnam War Era Oral History Project. Today is Sunday, November 25, 2018. Good afternoon em. TV: Good afternoon chị. PT: How are you today? TV: I’m good. Thank you! PT: First I would like to thank you for accepting our interview and first, do you have any question regarding this interview? TV: No question so far. I’m just glad to be here and thank you for inviting me to participate in this project. PT: Thank you. Now, let’s start the interview. Please state and spell your full name. TV: My full name is Thuan Huy Vuong. The last name is V U O N G, first name T H U A N, middle name is H U Y. PT: So, when you state exactly the way our Vietnamese state our name. How do you say? TV: Vương Huy Thuần. PT: Lovely name. Do you have any meaning to your name? TV: The last name is, according to my dad, my great-great-grandfather came from China. Vương is like a Vietnamese name but originated from China and Thuần is like, according to my dad when I was born, by the way I was born premature. I was just seven months. But anyway,

28 according to my dad when I was born, the nurse in the hospital said this was going to be a wild one so that why he named me Thuần. Wow so I can calm down and take it easy, something like that. PT: How’s about the middle name, Huy? Does he say anything? TV: Huy is like a family name every other brother has the same middle name. PT: Yes, you know, my family have all of us a middle name Minh. TV: Yeah, that is common. PT: Yeah, right. Tell me a little bit about your childhood. Where were you born and what was your daily life like? TV: I was born in 1970 in Sài Gòn, Việt Nam, Việt Nam. It was known as the capital of the South Vietnam back then to the Vietnam War. My parents’ house was about four to five miles from the capital back then. And that was where I was born I don’t remember much about my childhood but I had a very happy early childhood, an early childhood. PT: Wonderful, I am glad to hear about the special you were premature right? How many brothers and sisters do you have? TV: I have two brothers and two sisters. I am the second youngest. I have a younger sister. We— grew up together basically and we came to the US together. PT: So like you were born in 1970, so on April 1975, you were about five years old. Did you remember anything about your childhood at that time, five years old? TV: I remember particularly one event because our house was very close to Tân Sơn Nhất airport at the time. It was the most major airport in Việt Nam at the time and I remember there was some day as a kid, I had a lot of commotion. I saw a lot of airplanes on the sky. People run and hundreds of thousands people run on the streets. A lot of explosions here and there and I remember as a kid, I was a little mad because my mom wouldn’t let me go outside to play. She locked us inside the fence in the house and occasionally yelled at us to go inside the house. I thought it was fun but I later realized that was the evacuation going on when the fall of Sài Gòn on April 30, 1975. At the time, I didn’t know the scale of it. Now I am glad that my parents kept us safe. PT: Did your family live like in Tổng Tham Mưu, near Tân Sơn Nhất or no? TV: No, we had our private house near Tân Sơn Nhất airport. PT: So, maybe you were young but what was your favorite place when you were young? TV: My favorite was home. I was pretty much a very shy kid and I like to go out and hang out and play with the other young kids on the street, in the neighborhood. And then that I remember as a kid, I don’t have any particular place because we didn’t travel a lot, we couldn’t afford to. So home was my most favorite place for me.

PT: Of course, right? Home sweet home. TV: Yeah PT: Where did your parents do at the time? Can you tell me about where were they born? TV: My mom and dad came from— they were born and raised in Cần Thơ, a big major city in Southern part of Vietnam at the time. According to my dad and my mom, my dad, my grandfather was a mailman, and my mom’s father was like a manager of the farmers in the area, something like that. Both of my grandmothers were just housewives, which was very typical, very common back then. They grew up in that area and then both sides, my mom and dad, they both had ten brothers and sisters which were very common back then. PT: The more the merrier. TV: The more, the merrier (laughs), yes. So where my dad grew up along with his brothers and sisters, they moved out of Cần Thơ and went to Saigon for better education. And they were in school and college over there and then the war broke out and they just did what they did back then. PT: Thank you and what memories do you have of your parents? TV: I don’t remember a lot as a little kid. I just remember when I was a little kid younger, before the Fall of Sài Gòn on April 30 1975, we typically had a good childhood. I have— according to my siblings, I was a spoiled kid, whatever I wanted, and my dad just gave in. So I remember I was a happy kid, I didn’t have anything to worry about. So when the Fall of Sài Gòn on April 30, 1975, when that happened, I didn’t know much about it, I was five years old. But I knew some major happened, some major changed of life because I could see the atmosphere, by the look, I could see the look, the worry look on my parents’ face. The quiet, there was no laughter in the house. And then, a couple week later, my dad went away. I didn’t know what for until later I was told that he and his comrades were brought up to be shipped out to re-education camps for many years. PT: We can save this question for later on for your daddy in re-education camp. So— now you mention about your brothers were in college right? Do you have any special— memory about your siblings even when you were five years old? TV: They—we were just normal kid. There were nothing special about us. My oldest brothers, they went to school and my sister too and we all did. Nothing special. The most thing that was struck me was that we were very poor. Every day we were worried about what to eat the next day. But other than that, I think my mom managed to give us a good education back then. PT: Thank you. I agree. Especially your daddy was sent to re-education camp. Right? TV: Yes. PT: So now, you talked earlier a little bit about the Fall of Sài Gòn on April 30. Do you remember anything the last day when you were five years old, right? You saw people were evacuating and what else?

TV: I would like to mention a little bit about the Vietnam War back in 1968. That was Tết Offensive that happened in Vietnam. Many years later, I went to the US, I learned from the history channel and my dad and his people that there was an event happened in Huế and when the communist North took over Huế, the central part of V, they rounded up all the government people, military people that worked for the South. They considered collaborators of the South and they considered them as traitors and they executed them in the neighborhood in front of your family. When the South and the Americans took Huế back, we found a lot of mass grave and because of that it affected my dad. So when—I later learned from him that when April 30, when the communist took over Sài Gòn, he was worried about it, he thought he was getting arrested, get executed in front of his family, neighborhood just like it happened years before. He thought about killing us all and committed suicide. He didn’t talk about this until many, many years later, not even to us but I overheard him saying this to his people later on, many years later when they go to America and once a while they went to meeting, reunion meeting and they shared the stories and I learned about that. He said the only thing that stopped him from doing that because of his parents. My grandparents who lived across the streets and he was worried about them that was why he pulled himself together. He didn’t do anything bad to us. I thank God for that. It must be very stressful. PT: Amazing! Your daddy, he is a good soldier, a patriot. Everybody was scared of việt cộng, you know right? They killed people. At the time, where did you live then? The same place? TV: The same house, yes. We lived in the same house. Basically, from—since I was a kid up until I left Vietnam. I went to America. We lived in the same house. PT: I know you didn’t come to America later on. So can you tell me now later you growing up. Can you tell me a day with the communist, your life, your school, everything? TV: What happened to my dad and his people was like when the Communist took over the South, they— propaganda my dad and his people that they need to go to report to the newly formed local authority. So the new government is going to inform my dad and his people how to adapt the new life, the new government. And at most couple days, it took a couple days or weeks. My dad went there and I remember my grandpa was sick so my mom went to the countryside. She took us to the countryside to visit our grandpa. When I came back, my dad wasn’t home. He left a little note on the desk saying that he got to report to the government and he’ll be back in a couple days. Then we never heard from him for a long time until a couple months later with a letter he was at a camp from far far away in a central highland in the country. I later learned from him that they escorted him and his people with military trucks, rounded them up, and shipped them out. He ended up eight years in the concentration camp. As far as I remember as a kid growing up, we were super poor. My mom was a housewife before the war, right after the war, the end of the war. By the way, she didn’t have any work experience. All the sudden, she got—she was a young woman with five kids and the husband got sent away into the camp. So she struggled to survive that was why I remember most in my childhood we were very poor. My mom was always worried about what we were gonna eat the next day. I remember I went to school. I didn’t— we couldn’t afford backpack or anything like that, the book, notebooks, pencils. I had to carry them as a stack in my hands. I remember some kids they teased

31 me, they picked on me saying that my dad is in prison. You know like the little kids, they didn’t know the difference between political and criminals. They think all people in prison are bad people. So they kept teasing me about my dad. And I remember that because it—it embroiled in my head in many years to come and I couldn’t forget about it. And so, I went to school. I think, my mom, as far of after a couple years, she was selling off whatever we had at our home, just to make a living. And then she managed to have a job as a teacher, elementary teacher. Then she supported us. She raised us until my dad came home about eight years later. PT: So talk about your daddy, what was his rank in military and what military branch? TV: My dad was— I should mention all of his brothers, both sides of my mom and dad, all brothers were in military, some lower rank, some higher rank. My dad was a captain in the Infantry, he said near the end of the war. During his—there was a picture in here that he still had it when he was joining the officer of school and he later he held a rank of certain his army. I remember when I was a kid at his desk, he had a lot of pictures from his military career. But of course, when he went to the camp, my mom had to destroy everything because the new government they can—could go into your home and searched and if they found those, you will be in big trouble. That was why we didn’t have a lot of pictures of my dad when he was in the military. He—he later mentioned to his friends that he worked an intelligence too. But for some reason, he never told us anything about it, of course. My dad very—kept to himself when it comes to war and his experience. Most of the things I learned from him was from later on when he told his friends and family. PT: You know, he did the right thing because living with the communists, you don’t want to share anything right? Especially your past, you are someone. You don’t want to say anything. TV: Yes. PT: Now how long has he been in concentration camp? TV: I mentioned that there was some time, what they call peace time, sometime he got deactivated from his military duty. Then my dad went home and he was a teacher. He was a college professor— PT: In Sài Gòn? TV: Yes in Sài Gòn. PT: What college do you know? TV: I don’t know. I think its called Mạc Đĩnh Chi, I think. PT: Mạc Đĩnh Chi? TV: Yes. And when the war gets intensified, he got activated again. It was on and off like that. This is like before I was born even. So I don’t know much about it. But he was a busy man. PT: And the brave man too, right? TV: Yes.

PT: Early you mentioned about he was sent to concentration camp or re-education camp? So how long and did you know where? TV: He was sent to a camp, one of the newly camps that was built at the time called Hàm Tân, Thuận Hải. He was sent there because of his rank. Most of his people were sent to the camp based on the rank. The higher rank you are, the further North you would go. One of my uncles was a major colonel and they were sent up to the North side, in the mountain. From the stories I gathered later, my dad said lot of his friends and comrades didn’t survive because of the poor conditions in the camp: starvation, disease, and poor health care and then—a lot of time, he even said some people tried to escape and they got captured, tortured in front of the whole camp because the communists want to make an example of them. And it was a very tough time for him I suppose. I remember once every year, we were allowed to go up to visit him at the camp and as poor as we were, it was hard. Because we had to travel about 2-3days different means of transportation to get there and my mom would for months prepare little by little some basic foods for him like sugar, salt, rice, something like that. And my mom had five kids, so she told us she could afford one or two of us come at a time to come visit dad. Her condition was she only picks the two with the best school records. So and — that comes to me because compared to my other siblings I usually got the best grades in school and I used to be the one to go all the time and they were not happy about it. But I remember every time we went there, my mom constantly reminded us when you see dad, don’t mention what we experience at home. Tell him we are happy, we have foods to eat, don’t tell him what we were suffering because she didn’t want him to suffer more or stress out for his kids suffering at him. We were told to lie about it and as a kid, we listen to our mom so we didn’t mention it. PT: So, for the first time when your mom visited your daddy for the first time, were you the one who was chosen to or no? If so, tell me the experience, the first time you saw your daddy and your daddy saw you and his wife. TV: I remember vividly— I’m sorry. I remember a little bit of that, but later when I heard my mom and dad kept talking about it and I put two together and tried to remember the best of it. But this is the time we didn’t have the internet or phone or anything like that. So the main communication was mail and with that system back then, once you sent a letter, your loved one or the other would get the mail three or four months later. I remember the first time my mom took us to go visit him. In Vietnam, it was a very very sad experience because in Việt Nam, when somebody in your family, some loved one died we pin a piece of black cloth on the shirt for a year I think — PT: Để tang. TV: Để tang, as to show memory— PT: Respect. TV: Respect and that. So my mom went up to see my dad and my dad heard from the letter, my dad heard that his dad was in poor health. He was old and because he was stressful, my grandfather was stressed a lot because all of his sons came from, went from high ranking, from a

33 happy family, everybody went to prison and the family was destroyed. So my dad noticed when seeing two of the pieces of cloth my mom was wearing, he started to cry. He was like “Are you making a mistake because I know something bad happened to my dad. Why you wear two, you don’t have to wear one for me?” And my mom was saying: no, both of your parents died. PT: Oh! TV: Yes, and he didn’t know anything about that. So that was devastating. That was one of the stories that was still very touching to us every time we hear our dad talking about it many years later. And that was one of the bad memories I heard about it. Other than that, I was happy to see him but of course, as a kid you expect to see your dad as a man of the house. PT: The hero TV: The hero, you don’t expect him to be in prison uniform and very dirty and very skinny, it looks like he was in poor health. Yeah, it was very stressful for us at the time. PT: And was it a one day trip? Or you stay there at night and you go back home the next day TV: Typically, the camp, they make the prisoners build a temporary hall, if you would. So the family would go over there and fill out some sort of forms and they would go up to the mountain and where they actually reside to bring the prisoners down. And sometime for some security reason or whatever else, or excuse they had, sometimes they said, Well we can’t bring him out, we have to see him tomorrow. Then we have to go to that hall and stay there overnight. If we got lucky we would see him in the same day and went back right away. But other than that, sometimes we stayed overnight over there and typically it was very quick. I don’t remember how long it would take but for days of travel—and we see him there very quick. I would say less than an hour. But I am not sure exactly how long. We just—I remember I just say hi to him, give him a hug and most of the time my mom and dad just talked. We just sit there looking at him. We didn’t have enough time for us to talk to him. PT: Is this was in Hàm Tân? TV: Yes. PT: At the time when your family saw each other, did you remember you saw any việt cộng watching, listening to your talk. TV: Yes, I remember we sat across the table from him, like a make-shift table and everybody else around the room doing the same thing and we had a lot of guards around, a lot of prison guards around. They were watching us and we were not supposed to exchange anything—I remember my mom and dad holding him but I—we were always being watched, that’s why I remember as a kid I was scared to look at those guys walking around, staring at us. I didn’t know what was going on at the time. But it was scary. I don’t know I was in there but I wanted to be there to see my dad. But at the same time I didn’t want to be there as a kid. That was how I felt. PT: Yes it was a terrifying situation. The guards with guns watching your daddy, your loved one.

TV: Yes PT: At the time, like you say, your uncle and family members were sent to re-education camp. Were they the same camp or different? TV: As I mentioned earlier, they classified my dad and his people by rank. So regardless of your family, they don’t put them together, they go by rank. One of my uncles, he was a colonel in province before the war ended and he was sent to the North. And it was like I said: disease, starvation and other things going on I couldn’t even imagine. But at one point, in the morning, when it was rounded up for force labors, my uncle didn’t get up so they went over there to check on him and they said that this guy is dead, he didn’t move, he didn’t breathe anything like that. They ordered two of his fellow prisoners to take him out to the cemetery and bury him. And then on the way there, God helped us. I meant very fortunate, one of the prisoners who carried him, previously was a corpsman so he knows about medical and stuff. And he told the other guy, “Hey I think this guy is still alive." So they did something to turn him over, what happened and they woke him up. They carried him back and said, “This guy is still alive, give him some medical help and whatever.” and— he was on his way to be buried but yet he survived. But after that, his health kept deteriorating. One day, according to my dad, when you get older and got very sick, too much for them to handle you, to give you care, so they moved you closer to the South, to the less secured camps. At the final years, they moved my uncle to the same camp with my dad—to the same camp with my dad. . And then my dad talked to us about his story, he said one of his buddies said hey, I saw the name on the list and this one guy with the same last name as you, is it your brother? And then he looked at the list and said it was my brother. And then when the guy came, very old guy, this is like eight years later they didn’t see each other. My dad said he remember seeing a very thin dark skin guy. He couldn’t even recognize his own brother. That guy came to him and say my dad’s name is Hi, Hi. That guy came to my dad, close to my dad, he said Hi, is that you, are you my brother? Then they just broke down. So it was a very touching and they stayed together. The guard was nice enough at the end to let them stay together in the same unit for a while until they get released a couple months after that. PT: You might mention earlier. How long did they stay, both your uncle and daddy, in the camp? More than ten years or less than ten years? TV: My dad stayed in the camp eight years total. He told us once— because towards the end, the communist government, they didn’t see them as a danger to them anymore. So they started to let old and unhealthy people to get out and to go back to their families. And they started to drain out of money and supplies to run those camps, according to my dad. So they started to let people to go and this was a couple days travel. So my dad was released along with his brother, they came out and they didn’t have any fare—There was no way to communicate so they couldn’t get any money from the family to send out for them to travel home. And they worked in the camp for many years as political prisoners, they didn’t have any money, they didn’t earn any money. My dad said, they walked alongside the highway for a long long time and some of the bus drivers recognized their prison uniforms and felt bad for them and gave them a ride here and there until they make it home. And yet I remember that when they came home, it was late in the evening and there was an old man, very skinny old man came to the door, knock on the door. We

35 opened the door and we didn’t know it was him. He just came in and yeah, I was super excited I remember that my little sister screamed because she was like who is this old guy. My mom said that was your dad. “No, my dad "is very handsome, he smells good and he looks good. He is handsome, not this guy.” That my little sister, she was little. But yeah, it was very quiet journey for him, eight years. PT: I would like to hear more about, you just said, besides your sister, she didn’t recognize your daddy and how about you and other people? How’s about your mom? When he knocked on the door, she opened. What is the whole story? Can you tell me more? TV: I— I don’t remember much details about it but it was a lot of screaming, yelling, happy. And my dad was the first and the only one that came back from the camp in the entire neighborhood. I remember it was the celebration of the whole neighborhood, not just our family alone because we have a lot of people from neighbors coming in to see him, and congratulate him, and say hi to him. Everybody comes and wants to hear his story. This is the first ever they witness that. So yeah, I just remember my mom said, my mom told us go take a shower, put on your best clothes, we are gonna have nice dinner and— I remember he stays very late that night to talk to everybody, to all the neighbors. It was a very happy day. Yeah I was very happy too I know that. I know thing was gonna change after that. PT: I saw among your pictures. You had a picture of your daddy. Can you show me? Or this one? Can you show us? TV: This picture here marked number two. This is the house I talked to you about. We grew up—I grew up in there until at the end, we sold it and went to the US. This is me and this is my dad. This is the time he got out of prison. Like I mentioned, when we were little, we were poor so it was common none of us could afford camera. So pictures were luxury so that was why I didn’t have records as far—. [PT and TV looking at the photos] PT: You guys still wear dress and pants. TV: Yes, like I said. PT: Best clothes, not like the clothes in the camp. TV: This is the best clothes that we had, like I said. We only wear— PT: He is handsome, your mom is beautiful and you too. Look at you. TV: Thank you, we only wear these clothes on special occasions like on New Year’s or big celebration. The house that we grew up in. This is picture marked number four when our family came to the US in May 1993. This is the one we set foot in America, we got out of Minneapolis St. Paul International airport and we took this picture, 1993. Yup, you can see my dad is here, he looks happy. Mom here. This is me, my youngest sister right next to dad. PT: You’re all happy!

TV: Yes, we wear suit and ties. We were very nice but we had to sell the house to buy— PT: To buy— TV: To buy those. That was another story too. PT: I would love to hear. TV: Yup, yup. PT: What is this picture? TV: This picture marked number five when— this is the New Year celebration when my two brothers and my dad got together to buy the first house in the US and moved out of the apartment. This house was in Minneapolis. This is one of the good pictures that I still had because I still remember at the time, we were getting better since we got into the US. PT: So, he was released in 1993? TV: I am sorry, 1983. PT: And you stay for almost seven years he stays almost seven years with the việt cộng before he came here in 1993. What kind of the status? H.O? Diện H.O? TV: Yes, diện H.O. So when he got out, he got odd jobs here and there. Mostly just general labor try to survive, try to help my mom with financial support. Odd jobs here and there and it was very hard for all of us. My two oldest brothers as soon as they could, look for jobs to help my mom too. So and then we just make dues. I graduated in high school in Vietnam and then me too, I just went out have odd jobs here and there. Not a lot of people noticed but in America when you apply for a job or you apply you go to the school, you fill out your qualifications. Under communist rules back then, when you fill out application or anything, you fill out your family tree. They don’t care what your education or work or experiences, they just care about who you are connected to, what is your family member do, that how they class people back then. So like me, my brothers, and my sisters, we—because of my dad background, we couldn’t go to [school], we couldn’t have better job, government jobs or we couldn’t go to higher education or anything like that. So—and then at the end, American government sponsored a program called like you mentioned H.O. program and they sponsored refugees like bring my dad, bring his immediate family to come to the US as refugees. So that was what happened and then my dad had to sell the house that we had. The house was the only thing that we had of that value and he had to sell in a hurry for a very cheap price. Because if he didn’t the communists would confiscate it. And so—he decided to sell the house in a hurry and gather money here and there to buy luggage, the things that we need to get to America. PT: Beautiful clothes right? TV: Yes PT: At the time, your sisters and brothers still single right?

TV: Correct, we were, we came here. My mom’s youngest brother, my uncle, he was a boat people. He escaped the country by boat in late 1970. He later settled down in St Paul, Minnesota. So once my dad applied to come to America, he didn’t know where to do. My mom said why don’t you come to my brother, he can help us at the beginning. That was why they picked Minnesota and why we came here. I remember the first night when we got off airplane, go the apartment that my uncle rented for us, got it prepared for us. I remember that night after a quick dinner, we sat down in the living room and my dad called for all five of us, his kids come sit at the table. He told us, you guys know me, I don’t have any money to give you, don’t expect any inheritance or anything like that. But I bring you here, I try my best. I brought you here to the US, I give you a pair of hands, and a set of prayers, from now on you went out there to build your own life, to make good of your life. Don’t expect me because I don’t have money to give you. He keeps saying that. He said, however, many years from now, you are gonna make your own future but don’t come back to blame me for what you do. You are on your own, basically that what he said. So yeah, that’s why my two older brothers decided to go look for jobs and to help my mother to pay for rent, something like that. My sisters too. My younger sister and me, we decided to go to school and learn English first because English was the most important thing to me at the time. I remember we live in the apartment, every time the phone rang, we looked at each other and nobody wanted to pick up that phone because we knew that somebody on the other line is gonna speak English and he was scared. We didn’t understand what was going on. So yes, I decided to go to school. In the first couple years when we came here, we were on Welfare. I was on Welfare for a couple years. I remember I came to apply to go to high school and they looked at my paper and they were like you were too old, you were twenty-two years old we don’t wanna accept you. So asked them what I am gonna do then. So I know some friends around in the neighborhoods, and I ended up going to the basement in the church to study ESL, English as a second language, basically just starting over to learn English from A B C. And then I later went to library—public library to apply for a card and I would borrow books with cassette tapes, most of the kids nowadays don’t know what the cassette tapes are. I would bring them home, listened to tapes and read alongside with what they are in the books. And that is how I learned English. Then it took time, it took a lot of patience. A lot of time I was frustrated because when I went out to public to talk to people, nobody understood what I was trying to say. But I managed and that was how beginning was like. PT: So from what I heard earlier, you didn’t go to college when you were in Việt Nam, right? Because of your family background, your daddy’s work with former government. But when you come here, you and your sister started from the beginning, learned English. You went to college, right? TV: Yes. PT: Which one? TV: I studied some test, some admission test to the University of Minnesota. PT: MELAB

TV: MELAB. I took that test. PT: All of us took the same test. TV: Thank you, we had something in common finally. I studied those tests for a little bit and then I didn’t have any job, my main goal was to study English and to get an education and. I took the test. It’s been too long, more than twenty years. I don’t remember how many times I took it but it wasn’t many. I remember one day I came home and I get a letter of admission to the University of Minnesota. I was scared, oh my god, I don’t even know English yet, how can I go to the University. And I went to meet the counselor and they had a program called Commanding English. So the first year, you don’t do anything but study English, study how to write essays or college course on all these days. They help you with that for the first or second years. So I was sad a couple years later when I was in the middle of the university, they ran out money and they shut down the program. They had no funding for the program and they shut it down. But I was thankful to have that opportunity. PT: You know when you mentioned about Commanding English, I get the same program. Do you know the teach Ms. Miller? TV: Yes PT: Ms. Miller. TV: Yes, she was my teacher. She was later promoted to the director of the Commanding English program. PT: Right. Another one, I think her name is I think— Fraser. Everybody knows Ms. Miller, right? I remember when we learn English in her class, the bell rings, everyone wants to leave, and she said hold your horse. Do you remember the sentence “Hold your horse?” TV: I remember that yes. PT: Yes. So what is your major? Why did you select this major? TV: The first couple years I was focused on English, and hard to move on, I changed my major a couple times first couple years because I didn’t know what to do. But at the end, I studied International Relations and It took me more than typical 4years to graduate because at the end, I—and towards the end, I took part-time, I took one course at a time per semester and use the spare time to have part-time jobs to pay for my insurance and gas and all that. It took me more than four years to graduate and I graduated there and then I worked—when I went to the U, I had some part time job here and there and one of the jobs was being a security on the campus and from that job, I met some people and later they helped me out with some security job and ended up work for a company, a private security company, armed security and I also worked for an Armor truck, a company in St. Paul called American Security Corporation, driving armor trucks around picking up money from and to the banks. From those jobs, I met, some time you had some incidents you have to write reports, call the police to come over to handle the things. You know from those I met a couple good policer officers and they seemed to like me. So they said, “Hey, you do a good job, it looks like you are organized and well put together. Why don’t

39 you become a cop?” And so I look into it and I went to University, I am sorry—I went to Minneapolis community and technical college. They said since I already had a four years degree all I need is like a certificate, a law enforcement certificate. So I took a couple courses from there. PT: Skills class? TV: Not skills; skills come after PT: How long? TV: I got that certificate first. I thought it was a year. I took—I spent a year there at MCTC and I got the law enforcement certificate. I graduate as an honor student. I was one of the few that got top lists in the national dean’s list book. And then when I had the certificate, I applied for skills. One of the questions we had here is skills. It’s like about a year program they teach you how to shoot a gun, how to drive a squad car properly. All kind of things, more like a police academy. And I did that and then that’s how I get into law enforcement. PT: Before I go back to your career, I want to ask you about because most people when I interview with amazing story, tell us your first experience, and challenge as newcomers in America when you left Việt Nam. How did you feel? You know you left the communist behind, you come to the new country, you’re happy but what is your experience. TV: I like to— I remember the feeling when we left the city, as the first time in our life, we sat in an airplane, that was a huge experience for us and I remember looking down out the window and thought that was the place I was born and raised, and I had like my whole life there. And now I’m not gonna to come back. It was overwhelming, it was sad and super sad actually. But to me, way more than the future, what are we gonna do now from now on, where we gonna go, what gonna happen in the future in the new country where we are going into? I would like to share a story when I was in the U of M, a lot of my friends when they learned about my background, I remember one friend got interested, his name is Jim. He is just Caucasian, no more U of M student, he asked me: how do you feel when you first come here and start a new life, start to learn English? So I remember I told him that imagine you, him, you know, you and your family the government tells you and your family to go to China and start a new life there and don’t ever come back. So you have new language, new culture, you don’t fit in, you just stick out like a sore thumb your whole life. I ask him though, you have to start all over again, to learn a new language, new culture, try to fit in, try to create something out of your own, that is how I felt. And I stick with that story when people ask me how I felt at the time because there are a lot of things, all of us, each of us experience different things. But we can hear things and stories form people where you don’t know the truth, the meaning until you’ve been through it yourself and that is how I’d like to put them into my shoes at the time. PT: Thank you. And go back to your career now. Did your family, your parent’s support of your career choice? TV: My dad—when we first came to the America, he started to connect with his friends and people that he knows and he heard about the newcomers, you don’t speak English, you don’t

40 have any money, you’re— your kids exposed to gangs and they are likely to join the gangs to do bad things, trying to fit in, and this and that. I remember he told us whatever you do, don’t join the gang, jokingly but he was so dead serious. So he was super supportive when he heard I was gonna join the law enforcement. He was happy, yes. Many times I accompanied him to go to his reunion with his comrades at other states, he used me. Hey my son is a cop, PT: He was very proud. TV: He was very proud of me. He didn’t say to me whatever, but he was proud and I am proud too. It just came to me the career choice. Once I left Việt Nam I didn’t know what my future was gonna be like. When I came here, my focus was just to learn English. I didn’t know I was gonna be a cop back then. So it just happened along the way but I was happy to make the right choice when I looked back. PT: And you know I heard you got a promotion that you can talk about later on. My next question not only your parents but myself and our community are very proud of you. We have a Vietnamese refugee, newcomer to become the cop to serve the country. Did you do a lot work with a lot of communities? I know you did with me at a couple events. It was wonderful, thank you for your support. TV: Thank you very much. I enjoy working with you in those events a lot. So started with the sheriff office, Hennepin county sheriff office 19—sorry in 2002. At this time I was assigned to the adult detention prison. I worked in the jail managed inmates. And then I later on I was reassigned to the court division where we provide services for the justice systems, the judicial system. And in 2016, I was hand-picked to join the newly form unit called Community Engagement Team and that when I had an excellent opportunity to go out and about and worked with the communities, all different co-chairs’ background and political background from all ages, and I was proud of it. I brought a lot to my department too because we try to reconnect the public and law enforcement community, that was the gap there at the time. People don’t trust the cop and there are a lot of things going on back then. But we tried our best, tried to reconnect the two communities. PT: And are there any challenges as a people of color when working with colleagues in the law enforcement? TV: There are some occasions. First of all because of my background, for the immigrants— we try to— and refugees community, the first generation who come here as adults, they don’t speak English and they experience the new culture. For those, most of the time, they don’t have a lot, if any, trust in law enforcement community because where they come from the law enforcement and the military are totally different. So they don’t have that trust. So I use that experience to connect them and explain to them the law enforcement here to help people, not like in the old day, in the old country where you just bride the cops and get away with things. It doesn’t work like that here. I went to a lot of community groups, newcomers, we called them, people that freshly immigrated into the US and I explain to them DWI laws, about domestic abuse, things like that, whatever the communities request or require me to educate them to try to explain things to them. I was more than willing to do that because of the language barrier and

41 because of the culture barrier, a lot of them, they don’t want to approach law enforcement even though they have questions, and concerns for their family members, for the communities, for the young kids and some stuff like that. That’s why I have that advantage to help them out. Sometimes I got some other occasions, I have some individual who would not approve much law enforcement work and I tried my best to explain to them that law enforcement is just a job, we are out to do our job. But at the end of the day, we are just one of you, when we take the uniform home, go home and spend time with family. We are just one of you. And occasionally I go to school to talk to kids, to educate them about my job, about law enforcement in general and try to explain to them the cops are there to help people again and interestingly, a lot of kids came up to ask me about how to become a law enforcement in the future. A lot of kids were like, was it too hard? I used my story to explain to them. I came as an adult, I didn’t speak English, and I didn’t have any work experience or educational experience. But I made it, so you guys have more than what I have when I was at your age, if you want it, you are gonna get it. Just work hard for it. That is what I keep telling the kids. PT: You speak Vietnamese. It helps you a lot to, right, in law enforcement career? Can you tell me more about this one? TV: Yes, so yeah I came here when I was twenty-two. So I speak Vietnamese. It helped a lot. There was a lot of time when we have the members, the public that need help with language barrier, and if I speak their language, I help them out. If we don’t speak their language, we have a language line that we can connect them to and I find that if you speak the language to the members, the public, they trust you more. They tend to listen to you and they more appreciate about what we do and occasionally, we have some investigation like phone call or audio record or some documentations that are in Vietnamese. If we like to do investigation and—. So I help the detective and other law enforcement agencies whenever they need Vietnamese language skills, then I help them too. PT: Wow, they are lucky to have you, right? TV: Yes. PT: So now, I heard about— let’s talk about your promotion to sergeant. Are you the first Asian sergeant in the Hennepin County Deputy Office? TV: Yes, in the Hennepin Sheriff Office, in one-hundred sixty-six years of history, they never have—we never have an Asian sergeant before. We have like —we have a lot of good people, supervisors, deputy and civilians that work with us. We are a very excellent department and my sheriff, he has been tried to diversify the department and in the last couple years, we hired a lot, a lot, both law enforcement and civilian staff, people of color and what not. We’ve been very successful. We have a lot of support and I—a week ago I got promoted to the rank of sergeant. So yes, I am the first Asian sergeant of the department. PT: Wow, in sixty-six. TV: One-hundred sixty-six years

PT: One-hundred sixty-six years, wow. Again, congratulations! And truly an honor but not only for our community but also beyond. Can you tell me more about your new position? What will you do? TV: First of all, we have to go to the training as a supervisor. And we go from there. Basically, what we do is every time we get a promotion or new assignment, we get trained how to handle the job and then we just do what we are assigned to do. Right now, I am assigned back to the adult detention division. That is where I am gonna start next week and we go from there. Basically when you are a law enforcement like in my department we have many divisions, so in the future, if any division that needs your help out there, they will reassign you to go somewhere to work. But to me, it doesn’t matter where they assign me, just do your best and help each other out. That is my goal. I don’t have any favorite or unfavorite division to work in as long as I keep telling my boss as long you give me a good team, I work hard for and keep each other safe. PT: So if we have any young Vietnamese boys or girls who are interested in law enforcement. What would be your advice? TV: Well, I would say go for it, like I mentioned before. I had a hard time— a disruption in my life when we left the country and came here but we made it and perseverance, you want— something bad enough, you go for it and you are gonna get it, you are gonna be successful. That is what I would tell the young generation. Don’t give up if you really, really love to do it, you just go for it, and just fight for it. That is what I would say to them, if I can make it, you can make it too. PT: Thank you. We are here and for—like myself, I have younger kids, I have older kids, but for me. I preserve the culture, the tradition. Been living in here right. For me I write books, I tell my kids stories, our tradition. I did a lot of presentations in different communities. How’s about you? How do you preserve our culture to the younger generation? TV: Thank you. First of all, I want to mention that I got one of your books about the Folk stories that you published years ago and I am appreciative because the big thing to preserve our folk stories in culture and we need more people like you to preserve it. To me, I just keep my own culture and practice, respect the elders, all the thing I was raised. I keep practicing here and hope that I can pass it on to the next generation to do the same things. My mom and dad raised me as a good person. So I hope I can keep that and pass it on to generations to come. PT: Thank you. I have the book published early last year. So you will have one ok. TV: Ok. PT: My next book is All About Việt Nam. TV: Ok. PT: So I need to submit it to my publisher. I want to ask —when you we are here and a lot of kids saw police officers pass by, officers of colors and in their minds like you said. You give them some advice. Do you have a special program in Richfield, we have like Richfield Explorer for the young kids? Do you have anything at Hennepin County?

TV: We do, we have Explorer Program in Hennepin County too. You can join us. We have a lot of opportunities for volunteers and young kids who are interested in law enforcement. We have a lot. Hennepincountysheriff.gov. Just go there, you are gonna see a lot of offers that we post up there and we welcome everybody. We actually need you to come out and help us. That is what I would tell the kids. We have program. We have a lot of events that we worked with RPD [Richfield Police Department] too so all of the department in Hennepin County, we partner with them and we work very well as far as volunteering and helping younger kids to focus in this career and then reconnect with the public and law enforcement communities. PT: Thank you. I remember you came to our library to support our events and you came to Heroes and Helpers in Richfield. I am a PMAC member [Police Multicultural Advisory Committee] that is why I love, I respect law officers to serve our country. Now I know a lot of readers who are interested in hearing from you to talk about your daily routine as a sheriff deputy, before promoting to sergeant. What do you do? TV: What I do daily depends on my assignment. Like I said there was a time I worked in the jail, I just go in there and start the shift. Just to manage the inmates and run the jail smoothly. Once I work at Community Engagement Team, you go in there, you make your schedule, you make a plan how you go out and then help the community and give them what they need. So the daily activities, majority is based on what your assignments are. But any of the day, as a law enforcement officer, you—whatever the law requires you to do, you do your best. So we just go in the office and do— work like everybody else. But for law enforcement, we don’t actually have days off because during the days off, we have any major event or something big, we have to go back and help partners and keep the community safe— It is easy, you get a routine but it doesn’t matter what kind of job you are—have, as long as you support each other,—what kind of job you have.? I’m sorry, we support each other, and we should be living in harmony. PT: Thank you. Now, I know you have a wonderful work and job and good ideas. Is there anything else you would like to add to this interview? TV: I like to share my personal story, my experience to somebody who would like, who is interested in hearing it like not long ago, we have the senator John McCain, he passed away and he was a national hero and I was sad. And I talked to my dad about it and we mentioned that in Vietnam War Era, my dad and his generation start dying off. Nobody knows their stories and not a lot of people especially American public, we don’t know much about what they’ve been through after the war and back then. So I’d like to have every opportunity to share it and I never forget where I come from. Another note about my career, like I mention, we— it doesn’t matter what kind of job you have, law enforcement, or factory workers, or work in the shop or something, we just who we are, we need to support each other. Also, I’d like to add that to the younger generation, if you want something bad enough, just go for it, you have all the support and you look for it and I encourage them to join law enforcement because I love it, I love my job and just— thank you for this opportunity. PT: Thank you very much for the interview and again anything else besides talk to another generation. Anything you can share with the readers. You have another opportunity then.

TV: Thank you for being interested into my story. If you’d like to hear more or learn more about the law enforcement, background— my background. I’m here to help. So I have—just be happy. PT: I love to hear more about the pictures, you and your uniform. Can you tell me more about the picture? When I look at this picture, I know one of your daddy’s friends, I don’t know who she is. That is your daddy right? Where is your mommy? TV: My mom isn’t here. PT: Can you tell me more about the picture in uniform. TV: This is the picture that marked number three, one of my dad’s reunions with his people. My dad, by the way, now lives in Houston, TX. And every time he goes to the reunion, he is very interested in meeting with his people to talk about the old times and share the stories. He told me he is very sad as years go by, his group is getting smaller and smaller. People get old, pass away and leave the legacy. This is him, right there and this was published in a couple of local magazines. This is me. Picture marked number one, I was just sitting in the car getting ready to go to work. Number six is a picture of me in the other guard uniform in Hennepin County Sheriff Office and I am also a member of honor guard and one of those moments, I am very proud of to join the team. PT: Yeah, very proud of you too. TV: This is a picture of me in another uniform sheriff deputy. Number nine is gonna be the picture of me in the Sergeant uniform. PT: At your promotion, right? TV: Yes, just had last week. Marked here number seven is some of the thing I did back then like this time I was on TV they interviewed me about a trip I went to Dallas, TX for the five officers that were ambushed and assassinated back then. This is K11 and I was in a Hmong TV. I am with a Latino TV. Here when we advertised for the state fair booth that we have every year in the Minnesota State Fair. PT: So you reach out to a lot of communities, not only Vietnamese but a lot of communities. TV: Yes, I was lucky enough to, like I mention to join the Community Engagement Team and my sheriff has sent me to a lot of events, to participate in a lot of ceremony events and other things. So I was very happy and very fortunate to work with, not only the community college, but all types of communities, even law enforcement like you see here. I work with law enforcement community too, try to help out whenever we can. Yes, it was—it was a good time. I wish I could go back to that unit if they need me to be there. PT: You mentioned about your promotion to Sergeant last week, the—ceremony. Could you please tell more about like how many people were invited, how was the ceremony? TV: We typically have, twice a year we do a ceremony we call Award Promotion Ceremony. If you are promoted or you are a recipient of a Lifesaving Award—you do an extraordinary act

45 to help people, to save people lives, something like that. We give out awards to those individuals and your family is invited, and the members of the public are also invited to come and witness your special moments. So it was good, it was very emotional award. We have a couple of my friends I worked with for so many years also got promoted too. So I feel proud to be among them. And I can’t wait to see what our future holds. Now I have been promoted now I’m just gonna do my job just like whatever we do. But we have a bigger thing to worry about. We have— I would say more responsibilities to worry about as a sergeant. But I think I will do fine as we have a lot of good people that would help me out. PT: So your work like other people, five days a week or you have more than five days a week. TV: We just work typical business days, forty hours a week. But because some of our divisions open—I mean operate 4/7. So being a new Sergeant we don’t know what our schedule will be like yet. PT: As busy as you are, you still love to help the community, right? Our community when we have events. TV: Yes, definitely, I would help when I can. PT: Anything else? TV: No, I’m good. Again thank you for the opportunity. PT: Again, thank you, thank you very much. I love the story and it was pleasant, happy to hear your story and again thank you, thank you. TV: You’re welcome.

End of Interview