Printed (by Authority) by CORRIE Ltd., 48 Bucks Road, Douglas, Isle of Man. REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, 20th October 1992 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: Immigration (Fees) Order 1992. The President of Tynwald (the Hon. Sir Charles Kerruish, OBE). In the Council: The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Acquisition of Land Act 1984 - Rev. Noel Debroy Jones), the Attorney-General (Mr. T.W. Acquisition of Land (Fees) Order 1992. Cain, QC), Mr. R.J.G. Anderson, Mr. B. Barton, Hon. A.A. Callin, Mr. E.C. Irving, CBE, Hon. E.G. Lowey, His Town and Country Planning. Acts 1934 to 1981 - Honour A.C. Luft, CBE, Messrs. W.K. Quirk and J.N. Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications) Radcliffe, with Mr. T.A. Bawden, Clerk of the Council. Order 1992.

In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon. J.C. Cain) (Douglas Property Repair and Modernisation Schemes - West); Hon. A.R. Bell and Mr. T.R.A. Groves (Ramsey); House Repair and Modernisation Scheme 1992; Mr. R.E. Quine, OBE (Ayre); Mr. J.D.Q. Cannan Property Repair and Modernisation (Conservation (Michael); Hon. H. Hannan (Peel); Mr. W.A. Gilbey Areas) Scheme 1992. (Glenfaba); Dr. E.J. Mann (Garff); Hon. D. North (Middle); Messrs. P. Karran, R.K. Corkill and G. Waft Insulation and Rewiring Schemes - (Onchan); Hon. B. May and Mr. W.D. Corlett (Douglas Roof Space Insulation Scheme 1992. North); Messrs. A.C. Duggan and D.C. Cretney (Douglas Residential Property (Rewiring) Scheme 1992. South); Messrs. D.F.K. Delaney and P.W. Kermode (Douglas East); Mr. A.F. Downie (Douglas West); Hon. Subsidy Schemes - J.A. Brown (Castletown); Hon. D.J. Gelling (Malew and Beef Cow Subsidy Scheme 1992. Santon); Hon. M.R. Walker, CBE, Hon. J. Corrin and Mr. Hill Cow Subsidy Scheme 1992. N.Q. Cringle (Rushen); with Prof. T. St.J. N. Bates, Clerk of Tynwald. Manx Decimal Coins Act 1970 - Manx Decimal Coins (Cat Crowns) Order 1992.

Companies Acts :1931 to 1992 - The Lord Bishop took the prayers. Companies (Prescribed Stock Exchanges) Regulations 1992.

BILL FOR SIGNATURE Financial Supervision Act 1988 - Banking Business (Compensation of Depositors) The President: We have one Bill for signature, hon. (Amendment No. 3) Regulations. members, and if you are agreeable we will continue our Banking Business (Compensation of Depositors) business while it is being signed. Thank you. (Amendment No. 4) Regulations.

Design Right Act 1991 - Design Right (Semi-Conductor Topographies) Order ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT 1992.

The President: I have to announce to the Court that Dogs Act 1990 - Royal Assent was given to the Transfer of Governor's Dog Licence (Exemption) Regulations 1992. Functions Act 1992 on 15th July 1992. Social Security Act 1982 - Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 9) Order 1992. PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT Pension Supplement - The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers. Pension Supplement Scheme 1992.

The Clerk: I lay before the Court: Merchant Shipping Act 1985 - Merchant Shipping (Safety Provisions) (Application) Policy Report 1992. Order 1992.

Fees and Duties Act 1989 - Trade Marks Act 1938 -

Bill for Signature Announcement of Royal Assent Papers laid before the Court T2 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Trade Marks (Cusforns) (Isle of Man) Order 1992. Extension of the International Cocoa Agreement to September 1993. Legal Aid Act 1986 - Legal Aid (Reniuneration) Regulations' 1992. International Road Haulage Agreement with the USSR. ' Draft, *Church• Legislation Procedure Bill 1992 ; RepOit of tii6 EeclesiaStical Committee of Tynwald on International Road Haulage Agreement with thetirifi Church Legislation Procedure Bill 1992. Czechoslovakia. . Alternative Policy Group - International Road Haulage Agreement with • 'EdonOmic Policy -Doturnent of the Alternative Policy Hungary. Group. Peripheral and Maritime Regions of the EEC - ; ' PaYment of Members' Expenses' Act 1989 Report of the Isle of Man delegation to the Islands Payment of Menibers' Expenses (Specified Bodies) Commission of the Conference of the Peripheral and (Aniendinefit) (No. 3) Order 1992. Maritime Regions of the EEC 1992. - ( • ; Ba 1k Holidays Act 1989 Annual Reports and Accounts - Holi4Y&11993) Order 1992. Isle of Man Government accounts for the year ended 31st March 1992. 'Diseases of Aniinalt1Preverition) Acts 1948 to 1978 Manx Electricity Authority's annual report and Mo:fernent of Aninials (Restriction) (Amendment) accounts for the year ended 31st March 1992. Order 1992. Financial Supervision Act 1988 - 'TMerchaiit Shipping' Act 1985 Banking Business (Compensation of Depositors) Merchant Shipping (Official Log Books) Regulations Regulations 1991 - 1992:' Annual report and accounts of scheme manager for •Merchant –.Shipping (Navigational Equipment) the year ended 31st March 1992. ReiulatiOns'1992. Merchant Shipping '(Safety Manning Document) European Communities - Regulations 1992. Applicable European Communities secondary legislation for May, June, July and August 1992. Copyright' - • Copyright (Isle of Man) (Revocation) Order 1992. Copyright (Application to the Isle of Man) Order 1992. "'r - GOVERNMENT ACTIVITIES — REVIEW — SALE TO PRIVATE SECTOR — QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER Appointed Day Orders CoMpaniei Act 1992 (Appointed Day) (No. 1) Order The President: Turning now to the Question Paper, hon. 1992. members, I call upon the hon. Mr. Speaker to ask the Church Act 1992 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order 1992. question standing in his name. Road Traffic (Amendment) Act 1992 (Appointed Day) (NO: 2) Order 1992: The Speaker: Mr. President, I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister: Iniernationar Agreements 'International Agreements whiclVithe Isle of Man Will you initiate a review of all major activities Government has requested to be extended to the Isle undertaken by Government with a view to determining those of Man during the period 1st April 1992 to 30th June activities which should be sold to the private sector with 100:= •r. • ' appropriate safeguards to protect the public interest therein?

International Convention on Certain Rules concerning Civil Jurisdiction in /natters of The President: The Chief Minister. Collision. Mr. Walker: Mr. President, I have briefly discussed the intern'ational Convention for the Unification of suggestion in the question with my colleagues on the Council 'Certain Rules relating to Penal Jurisdiction in of Ministers and am happy to confirm that I am prepared matters of Collision or other Incidents of to accept the suggestion and will initiate the review Navigation. suggested. I should, however, stress that we have always made clear that we do not adopt a doctrinaire stance in International Convention relating to the Arrest of privatisation, so that we do not argue that privatisation or Sea-Going Ships. that public ownership is preferable. Each activity is judged on its own merits, and I feel sure that that is the right AgreeMent On the Conservation of Bats inEurope. approach.

Extradition Treaty between the Government of the Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, would the Chief Minister United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern not agree that the public interest has not been served in the Ireland and the Republic of India. — United Kingdom through privatisation, and will he give

Government Activities — Review — Sale to Private Sector — Question by The Speaker TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T3

assurances to this hon. Court that before we proceed down Will you instruct the Treasury to draw up a suitable this road we will make sure that we do not end up in the rate rebate scheme as a matter of urgency? same situation as the consumers have suffered severely with water, gas and electricity in the UK? The President: The Chief Minister.

Mr. Walker: I am sure, Mr. President, that there are Mr. Walker: Mr. President,: the Policy Report makes many experiences in the United Kingdom that we as an island clear that our financial resources arelikelY to be cOntrained can learn by and there have been some good and some bad over the next. year ,or two. Our eiplicit intention is to examples of privatisation. I think there are examples, I do maintain existing services and not embark on new think we have to learn by experiences elsewhere, and commitments which add to our ,general revenue costs. certainly, as I said before, we would judge each activity on Accordingly,,we have no immediate plans for a rate rebate its own merits and we would look to see that the public scheme and certainly will not be considering .any such interest is preserved. development in advance of the outcome of the 'Time For Change' consultative document produced by, the, Department Mr. Groves: Mr. President, would the Chief Minister of Local Government and the. Environment. not agree that there is a difference between selling assets of We do of course,,provIde through our.. social' security the Island to the private sector and looking at those services system a comprehensive package of assisted measures for which Government currently carries out which could those who are in need and there are ,on today's Agenda otherwise be carried out by the private sector, and will he proposals which will increase the assistance available to include that in his instructions to Government departments? residentially qualified retired persons. Where perSoni are on supplementary benefit, - their , rates, arer„ taken fttlly ,into Mr. Walker: Yes, I would certainly agree with the hon. account to determine -the housing element in their. benefit. member for Ramsey, Mr. President. Mr. Delaney: The question has been answered in the Mr. Delaney: Mr. President, may I ask the Chief second question, Mr. President. Can I ask the Chief,Mintster Minister, now that the legislation is in place, due to the the following supplementary question? Now that the Chief amending of the Rating and Valuation Act passed by the Minister has indicated that nothing will Occur until:the 'Time House of Keys and the Legislative Council in the last session, For Change' document has, been implemented, will the Chief would the Chief Minister undertake to implement with the Minister then bear in mind the huge increases that'are going Treasury a scheme that would enable those people who pay to be borne by, Douglas ratepayersbecause-of the on-going large rates and differentials between town and country to cost of the re-development at the Villa Marina site which take place in this forthcoming financial year? will take the differential between Douglas and outlying areas to such a substantial rate that was only experienced in the The President: Reply. 1960s? Mr. Walker: I do not see how that is related to the Mr. Walker: The situation regarding the Villa Marina question, Mr. President. and its re-development, Mr. President, is something that is exercising our minds at the moment and we do appreciate Mr. Cretney: Wrong question, Dominic. that there will be an impact on the ratepayers of DOuglas unless some extraordinary measures are put into place. Mr. Walker: There is another question a little bit later on which addresses that particular issue. Mr. Karran: A further supplementary, Y Eaghtyrane. Could the Chief Minister give an assurance to this hon. Mr. Quine: Would the Chief Minister, in looking at this Court that a scheme could be drafted up and some idea of matter with particular regard to safeguarding the public what costings would be involved so that weclo, not have to interest, ensure that the exercise embraces the possibility of go through that long procedure if the situation arisei"Where franchise? pressure is put on our rating system, that the less well-off, who are not all on-supplementary benefit,,will not have to The President: Reply, sir. wait 18 months or two years for such a scheme to be developed and to be brought into use? Mr. Walker: Yes, I think that at this stage the suggestion is made that we should review activities - that is the situation The President: Reply, sir? that I would accept - and the different ways in which those particular activities of Government could be put out to the Mr. Walker: It is, Mr. President, a matter of priorities. private sector, if it is deemed beneficial: those different ways The hon. member suggested a scheme should be looked at will all be explored. at this stage. I would think it would be far more worthwhile to wait and see what the future of our local authority structure is on the Island and the impact that will have on the rating throughout the Island rather than anticipate any RATE REBATE SCHEME — URGENT proposals at this stage. INTRODUCTION — QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN Mr. Kermode: Mr. President, as the Chief Minister did The President: Question 2, the hon. member for mention social security, I am sure the Chief Minister is aware Onchan. of the financial restraints that are put upon the DHSS in this particular area. Can I ask him does he think it is right Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Chief that a person living in our community and getting £73 a week Minister: from social security, because that is all the department is • Rate Rebate Scheme — Urgent Introduction — Question by Mr. Karran T4 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 allowed to pay him and then being charged £50 a week for arrangements rather than past actions. rent and left £23 a week to live on, does he think that is fair in our prosperous and caring society? UK COUNSEL — LICENCE APPLICATIONS - .Mr. Walker: I have to say, Mr. President, that if we talk ADEQUACY OF REPRESENTATION - about hypothetical-cases it seems to me highly unlikely that QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN we have an individual whose total income is £73 a week paying £50 rent for an individual house. That may or may The President: Question 5, the hon. member for not be the case. I sincerely hope that it is not the case - Michael.

Mr. Kermode: It is the case and it is not hypothetical. Mr. Cannan: I ask the Chief Minister, sir:

Mr. Walker: - and that where that situation arises our (1) How many applications for a licence for United system would in fact go some way to assisting the individual. Kingdom counsel to appear in Manx courts were received by His Excellency the Lieutenant- Kermode: It cannot do it under statute. Governor during the period 1st January 1991 to 30th September 1992 and how many were approved?

' , BANKRUPTCY LAW — REVIEW - (2) How many of the approved licences for UK `' - ' QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN counsel were in respect of court proceedings to be funded by legal aid? The President: Question 3, the hon. member for Onchan. (3) What steps are taken by His Excellency to ensure that the continuing requirement for a Manx Bar Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Chief does not take priority over the need for a person Minister: to be adequately represented by UK counsel before the Manx courts? IS the law concerning bankruptcy to be reviewed? The President: The Chief Minister. The President: The Chief Minister. Mr. Walker: Mr. President, between 1st January 1991 Mr. Walker: Mr. President, an Insolvency Bill is and 30th September 1992 His Excellency the Lieutenant- included in the legislative programme for the 1993/94 Governor received 27 applications for English barristers to legislative session and that is set out in Appendix 14 of our appear in Manx courts, and 24 licences were issued relating report, sir. to 10 cases. In answer to the second part of the question, a legal aid certificate was issued to four of the persons represented by English barristers in these cases. MANX RADIO — PROPOSALS FOR THE FUTURE - The third part of the question: in very exceptional QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN circumstances and for good and sufficient cause shown the Governor, in his complete discretion, may license an English The President: Question 4, the hon. member for barrister to appear in the Manx courts in any particular Michael. matter. In making his decision His Excellency has regard to a number of grounds, which are published, and normally Mr. Cannan: Mr. President, I ask the Chief Minister, seeks the advice of Their Honours the Deemsters before sir: making his decision. The grounds used are essentially those recommended by the Commission of Inquiry into Legal (1) When do you intend to bring your proposals for Services under the chairmanship of Sir Cecil Clothier which the future of Manx Radio to Tynwald for reported in 1990 and those recommendations were debate? considered by Tynwald in July of this year, sir.

(2) Will hon. members have the freedom to debate Mr. Cannan: A supplementary, Mr. President, sir, a financial matters relevant to Manx Radio during two-part supplementary, with your permission, Mr. that debate? President. Will the Chief Minister, in order to ensure the need for a person to be adequately represented by an English The President: The Chief Minister. barrister before the superior courts of the Isle of Man, advise the Lieutenant-Governor that leave is being sought in the . Mr. Walker: Mr. President, on the subject of the House of Keys to introduce a Bill to amend Section 8 of Ownership and management of Manx Radio we say in the the Advocates Act 1826 to allow English barristers to appear Policy' Report that recommendations will be presented to at the Court of General Gaol Delivery, the High Court, the the Council of Ministers before the end of the present Chancery Court and the Court of Appeal in the Isle of Man? calendar year and thereafter to Tynwald. As regards timing, Such English barristers will only be permitted to appear I have nothing to add to that statement. subject to their having a Manx advocate as junior counsel The freedom that members will have within any debate to advise them on matters of Manx law. is of course a matter for you, sir, as presiding officer. Any The second part, Mr. Chief Minister, will you advise the report that we present will be concerned with the future Lieutenant-Governor to refrain from issuing a refusal for

Bankruptcy Law — Review — Question by Mr. Karran Manx Radio — Proposals for the Future — Question by Mr. Cannan UK Counsel — Licence Applications — Adequacy of Representation — Question by Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T5

any application for an English barrister to appear in the to advise the Lieutenant-Governor. May I suggest to you, senior courts, subject to him having a Manx advocate as sir, and would you not agree that as head of the Government junior counsel, while the matter of the proposed Bill to of the Isle of Man you may feel it in the national interest amend Section 8 of the Advocates Act 1826 is before the that while the proposed - House of Keys? The President: Would you pose your question, sir, The President: Reply, sir. please?

I . • Mr. Kermode: Follow that! Mr. Cannan: Yes. Would he not consider it in , the national interest? Mr. Walker: Mr. President, I have no doubt that His 4 Excellency will learn on his return to the Island, which I The President: You are making a suggestion to the hon. understand is later today, of the intent of the hon. member Chief Minister. to seek leave to introduce amending legislation in this particular area. Much publicity has been given to that Mr. Cannan: Yes, that was a preliminary, Mr. particular intent. I can certainly convey the message to the President. Will the Chief Minister not agree that it would Lieutenant-Governor if the hon. member would wish me to be in the national interest that while the proposal for a Bill do, but I would suggest that is unnecessary. to come before the House of Keys to amend Section 8 of If that leave is sought and if that leave is accepted, then the 1826 Advocates Act, that it would be appropriate that I have no doubt that His Excellency will seek legal advice he, the Lieutenant-Governor, refrained from making any as to the way he makes his decisions on these matters in the more refusals to applications that may come before him? near future, and I would hesitate as a maker of legislation to give, or be asked to give, that advice myself. The President: Reply, sir?

Mr. Quine: Mr. President, Chief Minister, you referred Mr. Walker: I know the point the hon. member is to the complete discretion exercised by His Excellency the making and again I hesitate to give a commitment that I will Governor, so could I ask two questions on that, please? First go to the Lieutenant-Governor and say to him It is in the of all, who does His Excellency the Governor consult before national interest because the hon. member for Michael he discharges this duty to decide on the issue or otherwise wishes to introduce an amendment to an Act of Tynwald of a licence, and, secondly, again in regard to that matter that may or may not be carried, that he in fact does not fulfil of complete discretion, is there any question of the his responsibilities that he has in front of him today,. I witholding of a licence resulting in a situation where we are hesitate to give that commitment, Mr. President. in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights and the International Covenant on Political Rights and Dr. Mann: Mr. President, a supplementary. Could I, Freedoms? please ask the Chief Minister, is it really a fact that the Governor did not ask your view before he made his decision? The President: Reply, sir. Mr. Walker: It is a fact, Mr. President. The Governor Mr. Walker: Mr. President, as I understand it, the told me what his decision was and that he had consulted and Lieutenant-Governor seeks the advice of the Deemsters that he was making his decision. I accept that situation and before making a decision on applications for visiting I think he was right in doing it the way that he did, sir. representation in the courts, and as far as I am aware it has never been suggested to me before the hon. member asked Mr. Delaney: Bearing the mind the Chief Minister's this question a few minutes ago that there was any Government and his policy particularly is to take away infringement on an individual's human rights. certain powers, reduce the powers of His Excellency the Governor within this Island, is this not one a very case where Mr. Quine: Is the Chief Minister aware that the Law the Chief Minister should be at this moment taking some Society is also consulted by His Excellency in these cases, steps to take away this particular function of the Governor and would he not agree that that is somewhat similar to and place it in more appropriate hands, bearing in mind the asking Arthur Scargill whether a coal mine should be closed year we are in? down? Mr. Walker: This matter is covered in the Advocates Bill Mr. Walker: Again, Mr. President, it is my which is to be discussed by the House of Keys in the understanding that the Lieutenant-Governors in the past comparatively near future. This particular matter is in that used to seek the advice of the Deemsters and the Law Society and it transfers responsibility away from the Governor to in such matters. It is my understanding that recently, and the Deemsters. I think shortly after the present Lieutenant-Governor came to the Island, he seeks the advice of the Deemsters alone. Mr. Kermode: Would the Chief Minister, Mr. President, They in turn on occasions can seek the advice of the Law not agree with me that in the best interests of our Society and do seek the advice of the Law Society when the international agreements and in the best interests of grounds for a request to have a visiting representative in democracy in the Isle of Man every citizen in the Isle of Man court are that there is no local advocate available, and I should have the right to the best counsel in whatever case suppose in those circumstances that it is just and correct to they may be involved in? consult with the Law Society. The President: Reply, sir. Mr. Cannan: Chief Minister, in your reply to me you stated that you did not think it was incumbent upon you Mr. Walker: I think it is incumbent on ourselves as a 110 UK Counsel — Licence Applications — Adequacy of Representation — Question by Mr. Cannan T6 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Legislature and the Law Society to make sure that the best UK PROSECUTING COUNSEL — LICENCE advice to people in our Island is available from people who APPLICATIONS — COST — APPOINTMENT OF UK are members of our own Law Society. I understand what BARRISTERS AS ACTING DEEMSTERS - the hon. member is suggesting, but if you take that argument QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN to its conclusion it would mean that anybody in any country of the world could employ any advocate that he thought was The President: We move on to question 6, the hon. best for him whether or not they were fully conversant with member for Michael. the law in that country, and I would suggest to the hon. inember that that situation would be wrong. What we should Mr. Cannan: I ask HM Attorney-General, sir: be doing is making certain that we have the full skills available for servicing this Island within the legal structure (1) How many applications have you made for a 'eif the Island. On occasions when that is not possible there licence for United Kingdom counsel to appear is a system which allows visiting representatives to appear, in Manx courts to act for the prosecution during and that is the system that is being questioned on the Floor the period 1st January 1991 to 30th September of this Court today. 1992 and how many have been approved?

Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, would the Chief Minister (2) What has been the total cost of employing not agree that it does not always increase democracy when United Kingdom prosecuting counsel in (1)? politicians interfere with the judiciary, as we have seen in many Commonwealth countries in the world, and would he (3) On how many occasions have United Kingdom not also agree that whilst many in this hon. Court sympathise barristers been appointed Acting Deemsters with the situation, there must be a safeguard so that it does during the period 1st January 1991 to 30th not just become a political issue over such a sensitive issue September 1992 and what has been the total cost ,which is dealing with the judiciary? of their employment?

Mr. Walker: I think it is a very difficult area that is being The President: The learned Attorney-General. considered by the hon. Court this morning, bearing in mind the general background that we have at the moment. It is The Attorney-General: Mr. President, the answer to the incumbent on us as legislators to make sure that we put the first part of the question is that I have made four correct law in place that will have the ability to serve the applications to His Excellency for English barristers to be people within our community, and I do believe that we will licensed to appear in Manx courts to act in the prosecution have an opportunity to address that law quite shortly. during the period 1st January 1991 to 30th September 1992, and all four applications have been approved. The four applications were in respect of three fraud trials each of The President: A final supplementary, the hon. member which was likely to last for several weeks. In each of the for Michael. three cases English barristers were also licensed by His Excellency to appear for the defendants. Mr. Cannan: The Chief Minister stated in his The answer to the second part of the question is that the penultimate reply that it was only when the law, the total cost to date of employing United Kingdom prosecuting advocates in the Isle of Man lacked the necessary skills and counsel since 1st January 1991 has been £35,620.13. There on rare occasions. In the answer he gave to the question, will be further costs but these have not yet been quantified. Mr. President, was the Chief Minister aware that 90 per cent. The answer to the third part of the question is that during of the applications are approved, 27 out of 24, in a period the period 1st January 1991 to 30th September 1992 His of 21 months? That is, will the Chief Minister agree, over Excellency appointed English barristers as Acting Deemsters more than one a month of advocates coming into this Island? in seven cases, five being civil cases and two being criminal And will the Chief Minister agree finally in response to the prosecutions. The total cost to date of employing English answer given to the hon. member for Onchan that the will barristers as Acting Deemsters since 1st January 1991 has of the Legislature is greater than the will of the judiciary: been £34,251.36. During the same period three Manx the role of the judiciary is to carry out the will of the advocates were appointed as Acting Deemsters to take three Legislature? civil cases at a total cost of £9,725.92.

Mr. Cannan: A supplementary Mr. Attorney, in your Mr. Walker: The role of the judiciary is to carry out and answer to the first part of the question may I offer you my fulfil the law of the Isle of Man, (Members: Hear, hear.) congratulations, sir, on your achievement of a hundred per not to fulfil the whims of the Legislature from time to time, cent. record in applications and will you confirm that your Mr. President. applications for English counsel are approved, shall we say, at the drop of a hat, just like that, and will you agree that Mr. Karran: Or the Executive! it is somewhat obscene in the public's eyes when a man charged with the most serious crime in criminal code, murder, is denied English counsel, and also will you confirm Mr. Walker: I am as aware of the figures as the hon. that your office will give me every support to expedite member for Michael, that is, the number of visiting preparation of a Bill to amend Section 8 of the Advocates representatives there have been in Manx courts, I have been Act? through the figures, I am aware of them, and it says to me that those people who have to make the decision to allow The Attorney-General: Mr. President, I am not quite those visitors to appear in fact do so with a fair amount of sure how to answer that flood of... As far as the last question willingness where the situation rightly applies. is concerned, the answer is quite simple: if the House of Keys

UK Prosecuting Counsel — Licence Applications — Cost Appointment of UK- Barristers as Acting Deemsters — Question by Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T7 give leave to introduce a Private Member's Bill, then of GOVERNMENT-OWNED LAND AND/OR BUILDINGS course the Legislative Draftsmen will assist the member with — REVIEW WITH A VIEW TO SALE — the drafting of the Bill of his wishes. QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER As regards the first part, I understand that His Excellency, in considering applications which I have made in those three The President: Question 7, Mr. Speaker. fraud trials, will have considered those applications in the light of Government circular 228/91 which is the direction The Speaker: I beg to ask the Minister for the Treasury: regarding the licensing of English barristers to appear in Manx courts. This directive is dated 7th July 1991 and sets In the knowledge that Government has a substantial out the circumstances under which His Excellency will capital programme, will you initiate a review of land and/or exercise that discretion. I have no reason to believe that His buildings owned by Government to determine those which Excellency has failed in his duty in considering the matters are surplus to requirements and should therefore be sold? which he had to consider in accordance with that direction. The President: The Minister for the Treasury. ,

Mr. Cannan: But nevertheless - Mr. Gelling: Mr. President, as part of the normal budgetary process departments are expected to identify any The President: The hon. member for Ayre. resources which they control which are surplus to requirements and which can therefore be utilised elsewhere or disposed of. Mr. Quine: With regard to your answer to part (1), can As the hon. Mr. Speaker states in his question, with a the learned Attorney confirm that the Manx Government substantial capital programme envisaged we must look at in fact employed a lawyer from the UK some year or so ago all options for funding such a programme. Therefore I can on the basis that he was going to deal with fraud cases? And inform Mr. Speaker that as part of the forthcoming estimate could you also tell us what salary that lawyer receives and rounds I will be seeking to review the land and buildings whether or not he has appeared in court up to this point in owned by Government to determine that which is surplus time? to requirement. I have already initiated this process with the Department of Education as part of the Policy Report The Attorney-General: Yes, Mr. President, on my discussions and the Department of Education is pursuing department an officer entitled the Legal Officer (Fraud) was several objectives. appointed in the summer of 1991. He is now able to appear in the Manx courts. Unfortunately the process by which he The Speaker: A supplementary, Mr. President. In had that authorisation was somewhat delayed for reasons thanking the Treasury Minister for his reply will he ensure which I will not go into and had it not been delayed it would that the contents of this document, which contains over 280 probably have been not necessary have licensed one of the pages and which lists, so far as I am aware, all the land and English barristers referred to in my first question. However, buildings vested in Government, are taken into account when he is very, very heavily involved with the new fraud that structured review takes place? investigation group, the majority of the work of which is concerned with giving assistance to foreign jurisdictions Mr. Gelling: Yes, I can give Mr. Speaker that assurance. rather than with our own domestic cases, but he has been heavily involved in the two and will be in the third of the The Speaker: Thank you. fraud trials which I have referred to, the second of which of course was concluded on Friday at Peel with the Mr. Karran: A supplementary. May I suggest to the hon. conviction of the defendant on a number of counts: a very Treasury Minister he could start with the Manx Museum's successful operation from the point of view of the bridge as a first start. (Laughter) prosecution, and the work of the Legal Officer (Fraud) and indeed the English barristers who were licensed to us to take The President: Hon. members, we are developing a the prosecutions are to be congratulated on their success in practice of making suggestions to ministers and some of that case. them are quite improper. (Laughter) Mr. Kermode: And some of them are physically Mr. Quine: Could the learned Attorney confirm that the impossible! Mr. President, would the minister, when he is long delay in obtaining the right of appearance before the doing his rounds and looking into trying to determine which court for this, I suggest, highly paid legal practitioner is the property and land are surplus to requirements and should result of objections from the Law Society? be sold, will he take into account at this present moment the climate regarding properties and the sale of properties and the cost of land, which at this moment in time is at a The Attorney-General: Mr. President, I do not think low ebb, and will he also remember when he looks at this that is entirely correct. There was certainly some delay in area that land that may not be of use to Government today, completing what had to be done as a result of some difficulty this year, may be of use to Government next year on a long- with the Isle of Man Law Society. I do not think I should term basis? So that we do not get the situation where go beyond that, but the matter was completed and the Legal Government sells off land then has to buy it back at a much Officer (Fraud) does now regularly appear in courts, higher price in years to come. although, as I say, in the three fraud trials, particularly the one which has just been concluded, it would have been Mr. Duggan: Like the Nunnery! totally impractical to have expected him to have shouldered the whole case on his own. Mr. Gelling: Yes, indeed, Mr. President, I hear and take

Government-Owned Land and/or Buildings — Review with a View to Sale — Question by The Speaker T8 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 on board what the hon. member states, and of course there Mr. Brown: Mr. President, as Mr. Speaker will be are many ways we can look at land and buildings that may aware, the current House Purchase and Refurbishment be in Government ownership, such as I had already stated Scheme contains a provision for a deferred loan element in my initial reply: the Department of Education, in building which is specifically designed to encourage existing public new schools, usually ends up with a small school or a sector tenants and others in similar situations who can afford building in that vicinity which could very well be an asset to do so to consider purchase of a suitable property. that could be sold, it could be useful to people in that As my department indicated in its Housing Report which particular area. So there are many things that have to be was approved by Tynwald in November 1990 the taken into consideration and I can assure the hon. member department's policy in regard to the sale of public sector I have heard what he says and we will be looking at that houses is that (1) there is no approval to the general sale in the long-term view. of public authority housing, but (2) the department should be prepared to look at individual cases, however, where special circumstances, particularly those relating to the dwelling rather than the individual, merit consideration of ACCOUNTS OF GOVERNMENT-OWNED the sale of the relevant individual property. The department COMPANIES — PROVISION OF COPIES FREE OF continues to keep that policy under review. CONFIDENTIAL COVER — QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN The Speaker: A supplementary, Mr. President. Could the minister kindly inform me as to why people who could The President: Question 8, the hon. member for well afford to occupy private property be permitted to Michael. occupy what I can best describe as subsidised public housing, to the detriment of those in need on housing waiting lists? Mr. Cannan: I ask the Minister for the Treasury, sir: The President: Reply, sir. (1) When will you provide members with copies of the accounts of Government-owned companies Mr. Brown: Yes, Mr. President, that whole statement and their subsidiaries for the financial year by Mr. Speaker is without foundation and I would be very 1991/92? pleased for him to give me examples of people who in fact he feels and why he feels, on presumably a single criterion, (2) Will the accounts be free of confidential cover? i.e. their income, that they can afford to buy a house? And I think it is easy for Mr. Speaker to make the statement, The President: The Minister for the Treasury. as do many other people, without considering the actual circumstances that may affect a family, and I would have Mr. Gelling: Mr. President, copies of the audited hoped it is not the intention of this Isle of Man Government accounts of Radio Manx Limited, Laxey Glen Mills Limited or this parliament to make people worse off, but to give them and the Isle of Man National Transport Limited for the the opportunities to better themselves, and that certainly is financial year ending 31st March 1992 are today being my aim. circulated, in fact I think they have been circulated to members, and in the second part the accounts are free of The Speaker: A supplementary. confidential cover. Mr. Kermode (rose) : I give way to the senior citizen. Mr. Cannan: A supplementary, Mr. President, sir. May (Laughter) I ask the Treasury Minister whether the accounts of those Government-owned companies for the years 1989/90 and The Speaker: Mr. President, in rising to ask a further 1990/91, which he gave to us in June of this year, whether supplementary could I express my gratitude to the member he is removing the confidential cover from those accounts for Douglas East. (Laughter) In expressing my also, sir? disappointment with the response that I have received from the Minister for Local Government could I ask him whether Mr. Gelling: Indeed, Mr. President. or not in his view the issues that I have raised are important matters of public interest on which members are entitled to know what Government policy is? It is not for me to raise specific issues. It is, with respect, an issue which should be HOUSING POLICY — REVIEW WITH A VIEW TO dealt as a matter of prime public importance by the SALE OF PUBLIC HOUSING — QUESTION department concerned and in my view should have been BY THE SPEAKER included in the Government policy statement. Could he please react to that expression of opinion? The President: Question 9, the hon. member for Douglas West, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Brown: Mr. President, my answer was absolutely specific. It reflected the Policy Report of my department, The Speaker: I beg to ask the Minister for Local which was a very comprehensive housing Policy Report, Government and the Environment: which was approved by this hon. Court after quite a substantial debate, and the hon. Mr. Speaker has never Will you initiate a review of Government housing changed his views on that and never will, and I can policy to the intent that those tenants of public housing who understand and respect that. However, I have to say, while could well afford to buy the properties they occupy are we continue to overview this situation and continue to look encouraged either to buy them on a predetermined basis or at ways of providing opportunities, my view is absolutely to vacate them so that people in need may be housed? clear: what we should do is provide opportunities for people

Accounts of Government-Owned Companies — Provision of Copies Free of Confidential Cover — Question by Mr. Cannan Housing Policy — Review with a View to Sale of Public Housing — Question by The Speaker TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T9

to become home owners. That does not mean, and I am not There can be nothing more important than making sure convinced that it means, that we should diminish our existing people have an adequate house to live in (Mr. public sector housing authority stock, especially at a time Kermode: Hear, hear.) and I think we are meeting that. when we have over 1500 people awaiting housing in those With regards to the deficiency, while I accept what the areas, and therefore I think a positive role is to try and hon. member is saying, what you have to realise is that the provide opportunities for people to be able to vacate that actual borrowings are reducing as you are paying off that property and buy in the private sector, and that is our aim. debt and the rents are increasing and at the end of the day there is a balance within that, albeit we have to re-invest. Mr. Kermode: Mr. President, would the minister, However, I think one thing should be clear on: really, to should he go down the road that is suggested by the hon. those who can afford it, it is to their advantage, if they can, Mr. Speaker, please give this hon. Court the assurance that to purchase a property, and that is where I believe the the moneys accruing from such sales, if it was a change in Government should play an active role in promoting to policy, would be ploughed back into building more local provide opportunities for home ownership. authority housing for those people who need it? Mr. Kermode: It depends on the interest rates. Mr. Brown: Mr. President, yes, if there was to be a policy like that I am sure that would be the case. However, Mr. Groves: Mr. President, may I ask the minister what there are a number of things members want to keep in their criteria do apply to determine who will be granted local minds, learning from the experience in another island which authority housing, which criteria will override the income has been a disaster, and that is that they are looking for that those people enjoy? And, secondly, do I understand houses to be cheap, not at full price, and in fact our survey from the minister that the department has no actual policy of saying 'Let us sell our houses at full price' did not go on the point which Mr. Speaker makes in his question to anywhere at all, so people would be looking for those houses encourage those who have substantial income to vacate the to be sold off at a cheaper rate. The building of a house local authority housing to precisely allow those who need that we would have to replace it would then be maybe a year it most to be accommodated? to two years on where the price would substantially be greater to replace that house than to retain the house, and it is much better for Government, I suggest, to provide Mr. Brown: If I could answer the last one first, Mr. incentives and opportunities for people to get the ability to President, my department has a policy quite clearly of trying purchase a home, and the mortgage scheme that we have to ensure that anybody who is able to have an opportunity in place at the moment, by having a primary and secondary to purchase a property is given support through the loan element, does that. What we do have to do is make Government First-Time Buyers Scheme, and that is done as sure that where there are difficulties, we are able to respond Government promotes it. As far as whether or not they are to that. a public sector tenant or somebody living in a privately I would say that while my department is willing to rented accommodation, we do not distinguish. What we do continue to oversee this matter and in fact actively spends is say, 'Here is a Government mortgage scheme that is time on a reasonably regular basis discussing what is beneficial, provides a primary and secondary loan to enable happening in this area of our responsibilities and those of you to get the opportunity to get into the housing market', local authorities, it is not rushing to go down the road of and I think that is the right way to go on that. selling off our public sector housing stock at a time when With regards to the other part of the question, the hon. there are people in need of housing. member asked, What are the criteria?' The criteria are not just financial. The criteria are a number of areas of the Messrs. Kermode and Gilbey: Hear, hear. circumstances of that family at the time they are put onto the housing list, and that judgement has to be made by the Mr. Delaney: Would the minister kindly indicate, if it housing authorities responsible, it is a matter of judging that is not true, that the policy document which is referred to need, and I think it is fair to say that we have concerns over in his answer and which was accepted by Tynwald Court how some authorities judge that need and that is something is the same policy that the Government had when Mr. the department are looking at with a view to giving some Speaker was a member of that Government as a minister guidelines. and during that period the policy has not changed since then, However, what we have to remember is somebody may it is still the same until this hon. Court makes a decision well go onto a public housing list and be housed in very dire to change that policy? circumstances and two years later can have had their And would he not further agree with me that the opportunities increased and in fact be in a different situation. deficiency which he unfortunately has to carry on housing That is why I believe we should take an active role in stock must be the major financial issue that he has to promoting the opportunities that are available for them then challenge in the oncoming years? to become home owners.

Mr. Brown: Yes, Mr. President, the hon. member is Mr. Cretney: Mr. President, could the minister confirm correct: Mr. Speaker was a minister at that time. However, that the most rapidly increasing deficiency in terms of what his views were exactly as they are now and he has never is seen to be public housing stock is that which applies to changed that, and in fact if I recall, he made that point here the welcome provision of sheltered housing in which the in this hon. Court. But I take the point and I think that is subsidy is somewhere in the region of £200 per week, whereas fair. the deficiency which relates to the public housing in, for With regards to the deficiency, yes, there is a deficiency example, Douglas, is somewhere in the region of £6 per on there, but again I would say to hon. members I think week, and would he confirm that that is good value and this Island has something to be proud of in the way it is would he confirm also that the two matters should not meeting the requirements of its people in housing provision. necessarily be mixed? • Housing Policy — Review with a View to Sale of Public Housing Question by The Speaker T10 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Mr. Brown: Yes, Mr. President, I thank the hon. with their mortgage. In some cases, however, that is not member for South Douglas for that and I think, yes, again necessarily purely because of the mortgage payment but my understanding of the political will of this hon. Court more of their way of re-adjusting their finances to meet their and its members is that we should be meeting the needs of commitments. But it is a very small number, and if the need those who are not in a position to buy and especially the is there because they have had to sell that house, then of needs of those who are elderly and need some extra support course they have the right to be housed on the list. but do not require support in terms of hospital care, and Can I just say that one of the things we have to be very I think if we take that into account the figures the hon. careful about as people with responsibilities for housing is member portrays provide us with good value in terms of that we do not confuse rumours with the reality of what is what are investment is, knowing that we as a Government going on, and I have to say that my experience has been that are able to provide such welcome and good accommodation where we have had major criticism, in most cases of people for people in the Island, accepting that we have got work who have been housed, where people have said they have to do on-going with maintenance, repairs and so on. But sold the house and moved out of that into the public sector, again can I just make it clear to this hon. Court that my in fact in many cases it is that that person only rented that department is not ignoring this issue in terms of what are house and has moved into the public sector and therefore we doing with our public housing stock? We are continually their circumstances have been judged to warrant it by the looking at maintenance, rents and where we should go in local authority. But again it is something that we constantly this area. All I can say is that at the moment the view is keep under view and I am aware of views of members. clearly from the department that we believe promotion of the opportunities of home ownership is the correct way to go forward.

Mr. Quirk: Mr. President, the minister mentioned REFUSE — PERCENTAGE RECYCLED - several criteria on which houses should be built. Would he QUESTION BY MR. CRINGLE not agree with me that one of the criteria should be that people can live in the place that they wish to? This does not The President: Question 10, the hon. member for seem to be the policy of the present Planning Committee Rushen. and department. Would he then consider that this should be one of the special criteria, particularly in our rural areas Mr. Cringle: Mr. President, I beg leave to ask the where we find that young people can no longer get Minister for Local Government and the Environment: permission to live in that particular area? What percentage of refuse is currently being recycled Mr. Brown: Mr. President, the hon. member for and what steps are being taken to increase that amount? Council is touching on planning policies as against housing for the public sector, but I would just say that our policies The President: The Minister for Local Government and are clear within the documentation that we provide, and the the Environment. point the hon. member, I know, is concerned about is the difficulty we have between the balance of sporadic Mr. Brown: Mr. President, I am grateful the hon. development in the countryside and trying to retain member for Rushen for his question and for the opportunity communities in the countryside, and that is something again of advising on the current situation in relation to recycling. that I know the planning people are aware of. At present the department has some 240 recycling bins at But with regards to this matter, again we do look at 19 sites throughout the Island to collect glass, aluminium purchasing land in areas in the countryside, if I use that term, cans and paper. The amount of material recycled is presently small portions of land, and we have looked at areas where some 1,700 tonnes per year, which is about seven per cent. we can maybe build four or six houses so they are part of of the total domestic refuse or 15 per cent. of the recyclable the village. So we are conscious of that. I think that is the fraction of the total domestic waste. This compares very well only way I can answer that question, Mr. President. with the situation in the UK where most authorities are only recycling about five or six per cent. of recyclable material. The President: And the final supplementary on this The department is shortly to produce a new leaflet dealing question, the hon. member for Douglas East. with waste management generally and promoting in particular the recycling of waste. We hope to promote this Mr. Kermode: Mr. President, listening to the member with a series of exhibitions throughout the Island, and may for Ramsey and the comments of the minister and I take this opportunity to say how much I and my supporting the need for local authority housing, can I ask department appreciate the overwhelming support we are the minister is he not aware, because it will come back to getting from the general public in their continuing support him in his department, that this Government, having to ensure that we recycle as much waste as we can, and I encouraged young people to take out mortgages and think that the point that people are taking time in actually provided a climate in which they can afford to buy their own making sure they do not just dispose of this waste in the house, that there are some young people who are now normal way that we have been used to is very encouraging. experiencing difficulties in paying that mortgage and will be asking local authority housing authorities to house them Mr. Cringle: A supplementary, Mr. President. While I as a result of them losing their homes? This, I am sure, will welcome the percentage which the hon. minister has told me be confirmed if he asks his own colleague from the Treasury. in recyclable goods and I also welcome the initiative which he his going to take in further increasing, hopefully, the Mr. Brown: Yes, Mr. President, as far as I am aware amount which we do recycle, can the minister explain or tell a very, very small number of the total people who had the us what he is intending to do with the compostable part of opportunity to purchase in fact have fallen into difficulty our refuse?

Refuse — Percentage Recycled — Question by Mr. Cringle

TYNW AL D COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T1 I

The President: Reply, sir. circumstances before a final decision would come to this hon. Court, and can I just say that again there are other Mr. Brown: As the hon. member will be aware, I have people who are asking us all the time to look at, for example, recently been to see the experience of a community which composting, to look at digestion and all sorts of things, and is dealing with composting on a larger scale and may I say all I can say is that until we can get to the stage where we that we are examining the practicalities of that for the Isle say, 'Yes, that is the way we are going', it is only right that of Man, and I make it clear: I am not anti-composting. What we look at these other areas as well. But certainly the idea I think is important is to see how we could deal with it here of incineration has not been thrown out by the department. on the Island and whether it is a practical and feasible option for the Isle of Man to take, and I think that is only right, Mr. Quine: The minister will be aware that there is a that I examine that very carefully. condition attached to the use of the landfill at the Point of Ayre requiring that all refuse that is deposited there be Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. President, could I ask the minister checked because only certain categories are permitted. In is he aware of the large amounts of good wood which are view of that obligation will he ensure that instructions are currently going into the refuse tip at Kerroodhoo in Bride given to ensure that this type, i.e. wood and that sort of and which could be recycled if the minister were to take steps thing, is in future not dumped at the Ayres? to have this commodity segregated so that members of the public could have the use of it, by purchase if need be? Mr. Brown: I am not sure whether or not in fact dumping wood is contravening our planning approval, Mr. Mr. Brown: I thank the hon. member for Council for President, but I am certainly happy to check that. It is not his question, Mr. President. I have to say I was not aware the intention of the department to blatantly ignore its of the substantial amount of wood that is being disposed planning obligations. of and I have to say, like the hon. member, I think that is unfortunate. Certainly we will look at that. In our first purpose-built civic amenity site, which is in the south of the Island, one of the bays is there for people to put in recyclable goods that they feel somebody else could get a use of, to LOCAL AUTHORITIES — INSURANCE COVER - save it just being dumped, and there is no charge for people QUESTION BY MR. DELANEY to come and take that away, and that is something that I will certainly ask our people to look at and I will certainly The President: Question 11, the hon. member for ask the Chairman of the Ballacallow Committee, who is a Douglas East. member of this hon. Court, to take on board the comments that have been made. Mr. Delaney: Mr. President, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment: Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. President, could I ask the hon. member is he aware that this particular commodity does not (1) Which local authorities have insurance policies come from an amenity site, it comes from the builders' skips with Municipal Mutual Insurance? which currently run down to the Ayres and are ruining everything down there? (2) What action has been or is being taken to obtain alternative insurance cover? Mr. Brown: Well, again, I think that all I could say is I would ask people who are dealing with this type of waste (3) What is the estimated increased cost to the that, where they can, they should try and ensure that wood ratepayers of the alternative insurance cost? is not just dumped and is used elsewhere. Again the difficulty may well be that if somebody has put a price in for The President: Minister. demolishing an old building or whatever, then unfortunately they may not take enough care in trying to ensure that such Mr. Brown: Mr. President, the majority of larger items as wood are used elsewhere. But certainly my authorities on the Island have policies of varying types with department would be keen to encourage that to happen and Municipal Mutual Insurance. Following the announcement I will take on board the comments and we will have a look of suspension of business by the company the department at that. contacted local authorities and confirmed that through their brokers alternative arrangements had been made for Mr. Waft: Mr. President, could the minister confirm or insurance cover. deny, for the main body of refuse disposal, whether he has As hon. members will appreciate, the situation in regard now decided that incineration is now not one of the options to MMI is still unclear, but if it does prove necessary for the department is considering? authorities to take out new policies, then there is likely to be an additional charge. In the case of public sector housing Mr. Kermode: They have been doing that for five years! any increase in deficiency will be met by my department. So far as other insurance arrangements are concerned, Mr. Delaney: Twelve years! however, any increased cost will either have to be absorbed by the authorities or passed on to the ratepayers. This will Mr. Groves: Both! be a decision for the authorities concerned.

Mr. Brown: The policy of the department at this stage Mr. Delaney: I thank the minister for his reply. Could is still that incineration is an option that the Isle of Man I ask him is it correct that certain increases of up to 50 per Government should go for. However, members will be only cent. have to be accepted by some local authorities because too aware that we have to take into account all the of the circumstances surrounding this insurance company? Local Authorities — Insurance Cover — Question by Mr. Delaney S T12 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Mr. Brown: I am not aware of up to 50 per cent. On Mr. Cannan: Give it a good caning, Hazel! the information I have, Mr. President, which we have been able to obtain it is likely that the additional cost would be Mrs. Hannan: Thank you, y Eaghtyrane. The strict between 10 and 15 per cent., but again that is, at this stage, answer to the question is 'No', but I have asked for a review all we can say. If there are substantial increases, of course of the use of corporal punishment in all the Island's schools that is a matter which the authorities will have to take into and that request has gone out last week. The purpose of the account before they decide to go with that firm, whoever commission of this review is to find out the situation in our it may be. But certainly on the information we have at this schools, and until I have any information, the purpose of moment in time we are being informed that any likely this information, I cannot make any comment on what use additional cost would be in the region of 10 to 15 per cent. this information is intended to serve, except to inform the department what is going on within the schools and to keep Mr. Waft: Mr. President, could the minister, in view of the minister informed. the differing local authorities employing different brokers and insurers perhaps consider the overall view of the insuring Mr. Gilbey: Mr. President, a supplementary. At the of local authority housing within the area of the Isle of Man prize-giving at QEII last week the headmaster said that the going out to tender? policy on corporal punishment had now been left by the department entirely to headmasters, it was up to them to Mr. Brown: Yes, Mr. President, I am sure I have no decide whether to use it or not, instead of being decided difficulty in giving it some consideration. I think it is fair centrally by the department. Is that statement true and, if to say, I think it would be unlikely that we would wish every so, why has the department left it to individual headmasters? authority to go with the one company because that in itself may well have problems, but I am happy to at least give that The President: Minister. some consideration. I think we would have to be careful because I am sure some of the authorities would say that Mrs. Hannan: A head teacher at a school is in fact in as they are autonomous authorities they wish to have their the same position as a managing director of a company, but own choice as to where they give their insurance work. But the policy is set in certain instances by the department and again I will consider it. the schools in certain areas are expected to follow department policy. Mr. Delaney: Just a quick supplementary, Mr. I think the reason why this happened at this particular President, just to make sure that there is no disagreement school was because the department asked for this or at least about this, that as things stand at this moment in time all discussed the review with headteachers, and it was then insurance companies that hold their policies with this explained that this was the position, that the headteachers company, the property they insure and the other services at this particular time could do exactly what they wanted, they insure are completely covered, that is the situation. and this is why this particular school took the position it Could I ask the minister to confirm that? did by stating that corporal punishment would no longer be the policy of the school. Mr. Brown: On the information my department has been able to ascertain from the authorities we are given to Mr. Gilbey: Could we ask, Mr. President, what is the understand that they have all got added cover to meet their position with the other three secondary schools: which way needs. That is on the information that the department have have their headmasters decided? been able to get from the authorities, acan I say that if there is anything that the hon. member knows where that is not Mrs. Hannan: Well, until I have a report, a review of the case, then I would be very pleased to hear that because the situation I do not know that. I have had no comments certainly we would take that up with the authority from them to say they either do or do not use corporal concerned. punishment. I believe there is another school which does not use corporal punishment but does not have it as a set policy, Mr. Delaney: I will take that up, that suggestion. and I am not sure of the position and that is simply why I have asked for a review.

Mr. Quine: Is the minister advising this hon. Court that she does not know in respect of the secondary schools, the CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IN SCHOOLS - handful of secondary schools in this Island, as to whether REVIEW — QUESTION BY MR. QUINE or not corporal punishment is being used in those schools? And if so, would she not agree with me that she has in effect The President: Question 12, the hon. member for Ayre. abandoned her responsibility for exercising proper control over these schools? Mr. Quine: Mr. President, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Education: Mr. Cannan: Hear, hear.

(1) Have you directed that a review of the use of Mrs. Hannan: I would say, no, I have not abandoned the cane in the Island's secondary schools be anything at all. As I explained before, the policy of the conducted? department is followed by the schools, the previous policy of previous departments supported corporal punishment; as (2) If so, when was this review commissioned and I say, some schools do not, and in certain circumstances what purpose is it intended to serve? other schools do carry out corporal punishment. There is a set process within the schools whereby corporal The President: The Minister for Education. punishment can be administered and there are special, set

Corporal Punishment in Schools — Review — Question by Mr. Quine TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T13 down rules directed by the department as to what should department is with regard to corporal punishment. I believe happen if somebody is to have corporal punishment she has stated that it is her department's policy to have administered to them and how this would be carried out. corporal punishment when applicable. The ultimate running of a school is within the remit of the headteacher. The headteacher has the responsibility Mrs. Hannan: No, it was the previous department's within that school to run that school in an efficient and best policy to support corporal punishment. I am waiting for this way that they feel that they should, and I am certainly not review before I make a policy decision on it. abrogating anything. Mr. Groves: Could I ask again of the minister, Mr. Mr. Kermode: A supplementary, Mr. President. Could President, has she not just said that her department's policy I ask the hon. minister that when she has carried out this has not changed? review that she has been talking about on corporal punishment in the schools, when she has formulated all the Mr. Kermode: It cannot change if you have not got a information, she will inform this hon. Court what is the policy. policy of her department? The President: The hon. member has, I think, assured Mrs. Hannan: Oh yes, I am quite happy to agree to that, the Court it has not changed. Is that correct? Y Eaghtyrane. Members: No, Mr. President. Mr. Downie: Mr. President, is the minister aware that there have recently been cases of severe assaults in the school, The President: The hon. member. Minister, will you allegations made that pupils are totally out of control, reply to that? unruly, and what does she intend to do about it to instal some sort of law and order in these schools? Mrs. Hannan: Yes, we have not issued an edict that corporal punishment will be carried out. We have asked for The President: I would regard that question as not a review of the situation as to what is happening in our related to the original question and I cannot accept that. schools.

Mr. Gilbey: Mr. President, the hon. minister has The President: Minister, would you clarify the point that admitted that the previous Minister of the Education your policy has not yet changed. Is that correct? Department had a clear policy on corporal punishment. She is now saying that she is leaving it to headmasters. Surely Mrs. Hannan: Our policy has not yet changed. this is a fundamental change of policy; that is the first question. The President: Thank you. Also, is this not a purposeful effort by the backdoor to do away with corporal punishment in schools because she Mr. Gilbey: Would the hon. minister then, Mr. probably knew that many of the headmasters, if it was left President, explain how it is that in a public statement before to them, would not have it as a policy any more? So is it very many parents the headmaster of QEII made it quite not a fundamental change of policy from the previous clear that whereas previously it was the policy of the Administration? department that headmasters should use corporal punishment where appropriate and he had used it, following Mrs. Hannan: No, there is no change of policy being told that it was entirely up to him, he was not going whatsoever. While it might have been the policy of the to use it any more and he made this a major statement in department, headteachers have to take every case into his speech. Is this not a major change from policy which consideration and they do not carry out corporal punishment the minister has either brought about or allowed to be on a regular basis. So, no, there has been no change of policy brought about? to date. The particular headteacher was not aware of his position within the school. However, I do not think it was Mrs. Hannan: No, the situation has not changed. He certainly the feeling that there would be a decree issued but was just unaware of the situation whereby he could choose a decree was issued and at the moment I have asked for a whither to or not and he has decided not to. review and we are waiting for the result of that review to come in. Mr. Kermode: What we need is the truth.

Mr. Groves: Mr. President, is the hon. minister then saying that it is the clear policy of her department that corporal punishment be applied in her schools and that the headteachers of the relevant schools are so instructed? SCHOOLS — ALLEGED ABUSE AND ASSAULT ON TEACHERS — QUESTION BY MR. QUINE Mr. Kermode: No, she is saying she has not got a policy. The President: Question 13, the hon. member for Ayre, The President: Reply, minister. Mr. Quine.

Mrs. Hannan: No, the headteachers have not been Mr. Quine: I beg leave to ask the Minister for instructed to carry out corporal punishment at all. Education:

Mr. Groves: With respect, Mr. President, I asked if she How many reports have been received by your instructed the headteachers clearly what the policy of her department alleging

Schools — Alleged Abuse and Assault on Teachers — Question by Mr. Quine T14 TYNWALD COURT. TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

(1) abuse; Mr. Downie: Mr. President, does the minister then (2) threatened assault; and consider that the proposed or suggested removal of corporal • (3) assault punishment or threat of any other form of serious deterrent would improve the situation in the schools? And is she aware on teaching staff in the academic years that there are instances that can be quoted where children would appear to be out of control, unruly, and I am in fact (a) 1989/1990; dealing with some cases now of severe bullying in a school? (b) 1990/1991 How is that going to be assessed and how are we going to (c) 1991/1992? have some sort of a deterrent or control over these children?

The President: The Minister for Education. Mrs. Hannan: I think, well I hope I explained in my question, Y Eaghtyrane. We are very aware of the problems of people in close situations, whether it is pupils and bullying Mrs. Hannan: I thank the hon. member for his question • or whether it is problems of behaviour, and we are trying which covers an area which is of concern to all those involved to address these problems. We do find that there is a in the education service. restraining attitude within schools which does control an The direct statistics requested are as follows. There has awful lot of the existing problems that society itself has. We only be one physical assault in the years mentioned; that are talking about communities of 10,000 people gathered was in the year 1991/92. There was a threatened assault in together, obviously in different sized schools and colleges, 1989/90 but none in the year 1991/92. The number of actual having to co-exist, and sometimes that is not very easy. recorded cases of verbal abuse were 8 in the year 1989/90; What we are trying to do is address some of these 10 in the year 1990/91 and 20 in the year 1991/92. problems. We are not saying that it is acceptable for children When one considers that this relates to a school population to be out of control. If they are, if they are bullying and of nearly 6,000 pupils in secondary and college students, one if there is a problem with behaviour, then the situation is might consider that the figure is small, bearing in mind the that the child would be removed from the school and that wide variety of social differences which are found in such they would be suspended. I would hope before we get to a community. However, this is a problem which is not just that stage that we can address it. We do have professionals one of schools but of the community in general. We are within the department who can be called upon to assist, not consistently aware of the restraining and socialising influence only the bully but also the person who is being bullied, to the school environment has on young people who behave cope with the situation. A lot of the people involved in this without such restraint out of school or after they have left - certainly bullies - tend to be people who are at a it. disadvantage themselves and they find a way of getting over I believe too that this success is the product of the their inadequacy is to attack someone else, whether that be professional conduct, tolerance and skills shown by the staff the teacher or whether that be a fellow pupil, and these are in schools. To supplement some of these skills the some of the problems which we have to address from day department has undertaken a number of initiatives. The to day. subject is clearly acknowledged as part of the department I would hope that if any members have got any problems development policy plan under objective 7 which covers with school, with behaviour, with bullying, that they will schools developing an ethos and environment that bring it to the attention of the department so that we can encourages a contribution to society and caring and tolerance try and deal with it. towards others. For the past two years the department, through Manchester Polytechnic, has been running staff Mr. Quine: Mr. President, against the backdrop of a training courses which have had a major input into doubling of incidents of abuse, threatened assault or assault emotional and behavioural difficulties and has been running as a group, against a backdrop of a doubling over the last counselling courses looking at alternative ways of handling three years, can the minister confirm that her response has difficult situations. Provision has been included in the been to set up a committee to look at this matter, and could department's budget estimate. she tell me first of all when was that committee set up? Currently a major course for key staff in assessment and intervention of severe and challenging behaviour is in Mrs. Hannan: If I could explain first of all, we do have progress. A working party of the department, to which all a policy on behaviour and behavioural difficulties, so we teacher organisations have been invited, is considering this already have a policy and that goes back to 1988. whole area of emotional and behavioural problems. The The committee was set up at the beginning of the summer. deadline for their recommendation is early in the new year. I am saying the beginning of the summer; it would be in Towards meeting the recommendations of this working July. party I would like to stress, however, that I consider there is no place for violence in our schools and should any Mr. Kermode: Mr. President - incident occur, the offender will be immediately suspended whereupon the department will request a full investigation The President: The hon. member for Ayre, I think, has to address the needs of the individual and the establishment. another question. If the department considers that there is a likelihood of any danger to fellow pupils or staff, the offender will not be Mr. Quine: Can the minister explain to us the rationale allowed to return to that school. of setting up a committee to look into problems of assault I can assure this hon. Court that my department will be and abuse on teachers and then setting in train subsequent striving to its utmost to achieve its aims, which are to enable to that a review which is clearly designed to dispense with individuals and groups to develop their potential to become the use of corporal punishment? Would she agree with me, positive and contributing members of society with a caring that all that that can surely achieve is a further lowering of and tolerant attitude towards others. morale of the teaching staff who are already complaining

Schools — Alleged Abuse and Assault on Teachers — Question by Mr. Quine TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T15

to you about the situation? difficulties for the children of moving from the area where they know people to an area where they would probably find The President: Minister. difficulties and difficulties of adjusting when they have been either bullied or been the bully. Mrs. Hannan: My information, Y Eaghtyrane, is that the teaching associations that we work with, their policy is against corporal punishment. The member for Ayre states that there has been a doubling of assaults and abuse and MUSEUM LINK BRIDGE — OPENING HOURS - he states that we have now set up this committee to look QUESTION BY MR. DELANEY at it. We have had a policy. Yes, there has been a doubling of abuse, but I think we have to take that in the context that The President: Question 14, the hon. member for this has taken place with corporal punishment in the schools. Douglas East.

Mr. Kermode: Mr. President, I can assure the hon. Mr. Delaney: I beg leave to ask a member of the Manx minister I was not bullied at school, but can I ask the hon. Museum and National Trust: minister, having listened to some of the questions that have been asked of her this morning, would she not agree with Does the Manx Museum intend that the new link me that the teachers do have a tremendous responsibility bridge should be a public amenity open 24 hours a day? towards our children whilst at school, but a great deal of the onus of the children's behaviour must start with the The President: Mr. Speaker. home and parents must accept some responsibility besides our teachers in our schools? The Speaker: Mr. President, the answer to the question is `No'. Mrs. Hannan: Yes, I think that is the case. I would hope that some of the reactions here this morning are not saying Mr. Delaney: Could the hon. Mr. Speaker then inform that the whole responsibility of the upbringing of children this hon. Court that on the proposition on three occasions is within my department. I think we all who have children no less the organisation responsible for this particular bridge realise that it is very difficult bringing up children, it is not and the promotion of this bridge have indicated to the people something that somebody should embark on at the drop of of this Island, the taxpayers of this Island, that this bridge a hat. fundamentally, 50 per cent. of it, would be for access from upper Douglas to lower Douglas and would be for that use, Mr. Kermode: You do not think you are doing it wrong! and is it not true at this moment in time the bridge is proposed only to be used on those occasions when the Mrs. Hannan: But I think that we are also looking at Museum itself, which includes the front gates of the Museum that, we are looking at relationships within schools, within for security purposes, is open? First of all could the Speaker families and it is part of GCSE, the National Curriculum, answer that question? we are trying to attack it from all sorts of areas. So I would hope by the developments that are taking place within the The President: Mr. Speaker. schools - maybe if members would like to know more about education maybe I could ask people to inform me; we could The Speaker: Yes, I am sorry, Mr. President, I cannot always have a presentation on it, it is very interesting. agree with the premise on which the question has been based. Whilst the new link bridge facility has the ability to function Mr. Gilbey: Mr. President, whereas the hon. minister on a 24-hour a day basis, it is the intention of Manx National has twice said in answer to questions that in cases of extreme Heritage to open the bridge from the Manx Museum grounds violence the pupils would be removed - and the was her word to the Chester Street car park in line with the current opening - removed from the schools, that whereas we have a duty hours of the Museum grounds. under the educational Acts to educate them, what does she propose should happen to them and where should pupils Mr. Kermode: Now we are getting down to it. removed go? Because it is easy to say remove them from school, but where do they continue their education and how The Speaker: Now, this information is, as I understand is that continued? it, fully within the knowledge of the member for Douglas East and the reason why the bridge is not proposed to be A Member: In other schools. open for a 24-hour period in any period of one day is that the planning appeal, in response to the concerns that were Mrs. Hannan: Yes, there is a problem with that because expressed at that time, an undertaking was given to that statutorily we are responsible for educating all young people. intent. However, should public demand for an increased use If the person is suspended and then if it is decided ultimately become apparent, the trustees would be pleased to assist in by the department that that child should not then return to enhancing the use of the community asset, but at the present the school, another school either has to be found or a home time they certainly have no intention of going beyond tutor service has to be set up to teach that child within the Museum opening hours. home. So it is a difficult problem. I would hope that we are Now, Museum opening hours will to a degree, as the trying to deal with these problems before we get to this stage, member for Douglas East is fully aware, fluctuate in that that we are not going to get pupils expelled, but if it does normally it is the intention that the bridge will be open not quite get to that - we have had a case recently in a school between 8 o'clock in the morning and 7 o'clock in the where before a child was expelled they were moved to evening on Mondays to Saturdays. However, there are another school and another school was prepared to take occasions when evening events are held within the Museum them, with all the difficulties that that entails, and also the - an average of three per month in the last financial year • Museum Link Bridge — Opening Hours — Question by Mr. Delaney T16 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

- and during those evenings the Museum site gates, including Mr. Duggan: Mr. President, I beg leave to ask the the two security gates at either end of the new bridge, will Minister for Highways, Ports and Properties: be locked following the departure of visitors after the end of the particular event, usually scheduled for no later than (I) How many square metres of office 10 o'clock at night. accommodation did -

Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Mr. President. Bearing (a) the Isle of Man Government; and in mind the Court has been given, through the good grace of Mr. Speaker, the indication that both ends of the bridge (b) agencies of the Isle of Man Government - will be locked when the Museum is closed, bearing in mind that one end of the bridge goes into a public car park which (i) own, and is serviced by a set of stairs at that end, how will you indicate to those members of the public who will get used to, through (ii) possess under lease the day, traversing this particular bridge that the lock now is being placed on that end of the bridge before they reach as at 31st March 1987 and 31st March 1992? the top where this lock is and save them the wasted journey of going through the car park, up to the top floor, to get (2) What were the rental charges of office to the gate, to then have to come back down again and then accommodation leased by - have to traverse the area which they did want to avoid, which on the main indication of this bridge would benefit, which (a) the Isle of Man Government, and is Crellin's Hill? (b) agencies of the Isle of Man Government Mr. Kermode: They will put the sign up, won't you? for the years ending 31st March 1987 and 31st The President: Mr. Speaker. March 1992?

The Speaker: Mr. President, it is a very interesting point The President: The Minister for Highways, Ports and that has been made and I think an issue that could be of Properties. concern of the people who perhaps over a period of time do get used - Mr. North: Mr. President, as at 31st March 1987 my department owned 13,722 square metres of office Mr. Delaney: Like the elderly. accommodation and leased a further 1,020 square metres. As at 31st March 1992 my department owned 15,892 square The Speaker: - to using the facility and wish to move metres of office accommodation and leased a further 1,933 from upper to lower Douglas or vice versa. I am sure that square metres. I speak on behalf of the trustees of the Manx Museum when Item (1)(b) - included within 31st March 1987 figure of I say that appropriate steps will be taken if necessary to 1,020 square metres of leased accommodation is 107/ ensure - square metres leased as agent for the Financial Supervision Commission. Included within 31st March 1992 figure of Mr. Cretney: A bridge! 1,933 square metres of leased accommodation are 700 square metres leased as agent for the Financial Supervision the Speraker: - that a proper indication is made as to Commission, the Insurance Authority and Everymann when the facility of the bridge is available for public access. Holidays. All these figures only relate to accommodation owned or leased by my department at the dates stated. Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Mr. President. Bearing Certain departments of Government and Government in mind that on the whole design of this bridge drawn into agencies own or lease accommodation on their own behalf. it were senior officers from the Local Government Item (2) - in respect of office accommodation leased by Department, two, bearing in mind that this has all been done my department the rental charges for the year ended 31st with all the co-operation of everyone and the expertise, March 1987 were £23,500. This figure includes £8,500 in wouldn't you have thought a little matter like that would respect of accommodation leased on behalf of the Financial not at this time be addressed but would have been addressed Supervision Commission. For the year ending 31st March on the basic premise as was indicated at the time of the public 1992 the rental charges for the leased office accommodation announcement that this was for the use of the people was £169,187.55, and this figure includes £73,841 in respect traversing from upper Douglas to lower Douglas, via the of accommodation leased on behalf of the Financial Museum and the car park, and that little thing would have Supervision Commission, the Insurance Authority and been identified for planning purposes if nothing else? Everymann Holidays. In the case of these bodies they actually meet the costs of the rental for the premises The President: There is no question to answer. occupied. Again these figures only relate to the rental charges for accommodation where my department is the tenant under the lease. In comparing figures for 1987 and 1992 allowance should be made for the fact that my department now provides OFFICE ACCOMMODATION OWNED AND LEASED accommodation for the Department of Tourism, Leisure and BY GOVERNMENT — QUESTION BY MR. DUGGAN Transport which it did not in 1987. The Department of Tourism, Leisure and Transport occupies 550 square metres. The President: Question 15, the hon. member for Douglas South. Mr. Kermode: You would get all our tourists in that!

Office Accommodation Owned and Leased by Government — Question by Mr. Duggan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T17

Mr. Quine: Can the minister confirm that his (1) What were the total receipts from:- department has recently taken over a substantial section of the Peveril building as office accommodation? And, (a) Customs and Excise Division; secondly, can he also confirm that as a consequence of the particular department moving there other accommodation (b) Income Tax Division; is now lying empty at Tromode? (c) other Treasury receipts; Mr. North: Mr. President, that does not fall in with the dates of this question but I can answer that my department for the periods has not taken any accommodation in the Peveril buildings. (i) 1st April 1991 to 30th September The Speaker: Mr. President, can I ask the minister, in 1991; respect of properties owned by Government which are vested in his department will he ensure that arm's-length agreements (ii) 1st April 1992 to 30th September are entered into with the tenants of those properties, be they 1992? Government departments or not, so as to ensure that the proper charge for the use of those premises is reflected in (2) Are you satisfied that the estimated revenue will the department's accounts concerned and that we can in his be achieved this financial year? department's accounts see the results of their property- owning exercise? Answer

Mr. North: Mr. President, I can assure Mr. Speaker that On 18th October 1988, in response to a question from Mr. from next year he will see that happening and that is Karran, Mr. Cannan, in his capacity as Treasury Minister, department policy. gave an undertaking to provide members with a half-year statement of income received by Treasury at each subsequent Mr. Duggan: A supplementary, Mr. President. Is the October sitting of Tynwald. minister aware that the DHSS has taken over the top floor That undertaking has been honoured since and members of Peveril buildings? will have found an information paper on their desks this morning summarising receipts and the financial position to Mr. North: I think I can confirm that that is so, Mr. 30th September 1992. A copy which provides the President. information requested in the question is attached for reference. Mr. Kermode: I think you better had confirm it is the Members will be aware that the bulk of income tax receipts middle floor! (Laughter) are received during the final quarter of the year. Although it is disappointing to note that income tax receipts are slightly Mr. Delaney: Now you know the answer! down compared to the same period last year, there is no reason as yet to assume that the estimate will not be achieved. The President: Hon. members, that concludes our Treasury is monitoring the situation constantly. session on questions. The remaining questions are for written answer. For the information of all members of Tynwald

TREASURY RECEIPTS REVENUE — TOTAL RECEIPTS — QUESTION BY for the half year to 30th September 1992 MR. CANNAN FOR WRITTEN ANSWER Question 16 At Tynwald on 18 October 1988, the Treasury Minister agreed to provide Tynwald with details of Treasury income The hon. member for Michael (Mr. Cannan) to ask the for the half year to 30 September, at each subsequent Minister for the Treasury: October Tynwald. SUMMARY

Receipts at £66.5 million at 3.9 per cent. up on the same period last year. However allowing for the effect of inflation shows a year on year increase of only 0.15 per cent.

The customs and excise receipts are currently forecast to slightly exceed the original estimate and achieve £85 million for the year.

Income tax receipts are 5 per cent. down on last year. However at this stage there is no reason to assume the estimate will not be achieved, as the bulk of tax receipts are only received during the fourth quarter.

Other Treasury receipts, which includes interest earned on the Reserve Fund and the Currency Account, is also currently forecast to achieve the estimate.

•With regard to payments, 48.2 per cent. of the estimate has been spent to the half year end. This compares with 50.4 per cent. of the final actual expenditure at this stage in 1991/92.

Revenue — Total Receipts — Question by Mr. Cannan for- Written Answer T18 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

FINANCIAL POSITION

Estimate incl. Actual Actual to Percentage Estimate Supplementaries Actual to Percentage 1991/92 30.09.91 of Actual 1992/93 to 30.09.92 30.09.92 of Estimate £m £m £m £m £m Receipts:- Customs & Excise 81,542 37,432 45.9 84,300 85,000 39,363 46.3 Income Tax 94,001 22,401 23.8 94.550 94,550 21,291 22.5 Other Treasury Receipts 5.901 4,207 71.3 11,159 11,159 5,856 52.5 Total Receipts 181,444 64,040 35.3 190,009 190,709 66,510 34.9

Payments:- Net Voted Services 175,480 88,485 50.4 194,468 197,153 94,931 48.2 Excess of Receipts over payments 5,964 (24,445) (4,459) (6,444) (28,421)

Add:- Balance brought forward from previous year 13,769 13,309 14,140 14,140 13,705 Less:- 19,733 (11,136) 9,681 7,696 (14,716) Irrecoverable VAT (0,972) (0,972) Transfer to Capital Account 7,000 3,500 Transfer to Reserve Fund Balance carried forward 13,705 (13,664) 9,681 7,696 (14,716)

REVENUE - PROJECTED INCREASE - QUESTION of the Manx Museum and National Trust: BY MR. CANNAN FOR WRITTEN ANSWER (1) What are the visitor figures for the past three years Question 17 for the following branches of Manx National Heritage:- The hon. member for Michael (Mr. Cannan) to ask the Minister for the Treasury: (a) The Grove; (b) Cregneash; What will be the projected increase in the Manx (c) Peel Castle; Government revenue over a period of 12 months if the United (d) Castle Rushen; Kingdom Government increases the VAT rate by 2.5 per cent.? (e) Laxey Wheel; (f) The Nautical Museum; Answer (g) Castletown Old School? An increase in the rate of VAT does not bring an exactly proportionate increase in revenue due to consumer resistance (2) (a) What are the visitor figures for the to tax increases and the tendency of some traders to absorb such Kingswood Grove section of Manx National increases as far as possible, particularly in times of recession. Heritage for the past three years? In the first year following the increase in rate additional revenue is also reduced by VAT returns still being received which relate (b) What method is used in ascertaining these to periods before the rate increase. figures? The estimated increase in Manx Government revenue from a 2.5 per cent. increase in the VAT rate based on current receipts (c) Given the large number of staff and those is £4.5 million in the first 12 months and £6 million per annum attending private functions in the theatre and thereafter. seminar rooms who could not be counted as It should be noted that these figures do not equate to the visitors, how is the figure for the visitors increase in VAT revenue arising from the increased rate from extrapolated from the overall arrivals at the 15 per cent. to 17.5 per cent. in 1991 as other changes in the Museum? VAT system at the same time reduced the amount by approximately £0.75 million. Answer (1) The visitor figures for the past three years for the following branches of Manx National Heritage are: MANX NATIONAL HERITAGE - VISITOR FIGURES - QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN 1992 1991 1990 FOR WRITTEN ANSWER (a) The Grove Rural Life Museum 12,645 10,150 9,181 Question 18 (b)Cregneash Village Folk Museum 17,856 13,832 14,223 (c) Peel Castle 14,573 14,104 15,477 The hon. member for Onchan (Mr. Karran) to ask a member (d)Castle Rushen 39,321 29,945 25,383

Revenue - Projected Increase - Question by Mr. Cannan for Written Answer Manx National Heritage - Visitor Figures - Question by Mr. Karran for Written Answer TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T19

(e) Laxey Wheel 44,653 45,778 54,765 BILL FOR SIGNATURE — REQUISITE (f) The Nautical Museum 6,503 7,030 5,989 SIGNATURES OBTAINED (g) Castletown Grammar School 13,639 11,679 10,711 The President: I have to inform hon. members that in The visitor figures at these site museums are based on ticket accordance with Standing Order 160 the Statute Law sales and recorded use of admission passes. Revision Bill has been signed by a quorum of each branch.

(2) (a) The visitor figures for the Kingswood Grove section of Manx National Heritage for the past three years are: SEWAGE — STRATEGY FOR COLLECTION AND TREATMENT — STATEMENT BY THE MINISTER Figures for financial year FOR HIGHWAYS, PORTS AND PROPERTIES

April 1990 - March 1991 113,763 The President: Now, hon. members, we turn to item 5 145,171 April 1991 - March 1992 on the Agenda and I call on the Minister for Highways, Ports 100,494 April 1992 - 30 September 1992 and Properties to make a statement. (equivalent period last year 90,290)

(b) The visitor figures at the Manx Museum in Douglas Mr. North: Thank you, Mr. President. In May of this are recorded as follows: year in a Tynwald statement I undertook to make a statement of progress on the department's strategy for (i) all visitors to the Manx Museum facilities are sewage collection and treatment either immediately before recorded by electronic counters at both entry or shortly after the summer recess. Subsequently on 25th and exit points, the mean figure of both daily August 1992 I issued the following written statement to all counts is used as the base figure for members of Tynwald: 'Property Purchase. Contracts have calculating visitor numbers. In the day this been exchanged by which the department has purchased the operates between the public opening times farm Meary Veg, in Santon. The purchase price is £350,000, of 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. Staff morning arrivals including all the various rights. Initially, this property will and evening departures and all main form part of Government's "landbank", and I intend to deliveries which take place prior to 10 a.m. give members further information after the summer recess.'. fall outside these hours. A further scientific I am now pleased to have the opportunity to inform hon. adjustment is made to allow for staff and members that the department continues to progress the other service personnel movements during strategy for the collection and treatment of sewage, this public opening hours. This adjustment is strategy being known as the IRIS project. based on a mean annual figure established The Water Research Centre, WRC, has confirmed by recorded sampling techniques. In the through its environmental impact work and particularly the evening visitor figures are established by independent option assessment referred to in my Tynwald recording the electronic counter figures statement of May this year that their preferred option for before and after the arrival of the public for the resolution of the Island's sewage treatment and disposal an event. problems is to develop (1) a pump main transfer system serving all of the Island's sewered catchments, and (2) a (ii) Educational visits, special functions and single treatment works to which the pumped main transfer private views, both during the daytime and system should discharge. The WRC has also concluded that evening are by prior booking specifying the best location for the treatment site would be in the numbers attending. vicinity of Santon Head. The Water Research Centre's Option Assessment Report, further copies of which are being (c) No staff or service movements are ever included printed by the Water Research Centre, will be available in the Manx Museum visitor figures. The original shortly, hon. members, in the Central Reference Library, concept of the Manx Museum extension was to and it is certainly worth reading. provide facilities and opportunities for a wider use Resulting from the independent advice from the Water of the Museum's potential for the community as Research Centre the department, as advised to hon. members a whole. The trustees have been highly successful in my written statement of 25th August 1992, pursued and in achieving this aim. Many different aspects of the was subsequently successful in purchasing the land and/or Museum facilities including gallery viewings, and rights at Meary Veg Farm, Santon, having been for sale on the regular showing of the promotional film, 'The the open market. The purchase price, with vacant possession Story of Mann', are enjoyed by Museum users out and inclusive of all rights, was £350,000. of normal hours. Such events are a fundamental It has been acknowledged since the inception of the project part of the public service offered by Manx National that the acquisition of land for the treatment site was a Heritage and provide a valuable opportunity to crucial issue and would be one of the most difficult hurdles promote the national heritage assets to audiences which the project would have to overcome. This strategic and in an atmosphere which would not be available purchase from a willing seller is therefore seen by the during normal opening hours. department as a major breakthrough. However, all of the land at Meary Veg will not be required Therefore there is no sustainable logic which for sewage treatment purposes but there may need to be separates this category of visitor. A separate count some amendments to the site boundary. I would therefore of such users is kept and is included in the above emphasise that investigations and design to revised briefs Manx Museum figures. and leading to the earliest possible submission of a planning

Bill for Signature — Requisite Signatures Obtained • Sewage — Strategy for Collection and Treatment — Statement by The Minister for Highways, Ports and Properties T20 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 application for the IRIS project are continuing as a matter Mr. North: Yes, Mr. President. We have vacant of priority. These investigations will cover many areas, possession of the farm and in fact the land purchase was including the on-going study into the ultimate disposal of £315,000 and the shooting rights were £35,000. That was sewage sludge. as requested by the owner. I would also emphasise the design will be based upon (1) compliance with the Tynwald standards objectives adopted Mr. Kermode: A politician! by resolution in March 1990, and (2) compliance with the Tynwald strategy principles adopted by resolution in Mr. Cannan: A question. In the meantime, Mr. February 1991. The project also continues to be progressed President, can I ask the minister does he intend, in order within the financial limits approved by Tynwald in July to recuperate some income, to let out the shooting rights? 1991. In addition the Douglas storage tanks and pumping station Mr. North: Mr. President, we have not considered which form an important part of the overall proposals for letting out the shooting rights but I can tell the hon. member the development of Douglas harbour are being progressed that somebody has already asked to purchase them, which as the first construction phase of the IRIS project. It should we have refused. be noted that the storage tank and pumping station will form part of any proposals for the resolution of the Island's Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, can the minister tell this sewage disposal problems. They are not, therefore, exclusive hon. Court what will be the annual running costs of IRIS to the IRIS project. and can he give some guarantee that they will not vastly At an appropriate stage in the further investigation and increase by the time that we start this project? design process I will bring a resolution to Tynwald which will seek to take the project to the next stage, beyond the Mr. North: Yes, Mr. President, as I said, the detailed limits of the present Tynwald approval. If any members option assessment by the WRC will be available in the would like a copy of this statement, would they please let Tynwald Library and that will indicate the various running me know and I will supply them with one. costs of the various options which were considered and all the costings are there for the hon. member to see, and it should be there within the next few days, I have been Mr. Cretney: Could I ask the minister prior to the informed. purchase of the Meary Veg site did any consultation take place with his officers and the Department of Local Mr. Kermode: Mr. President, when we do really get Government planning officers in relation to any proposed round to doing this, and we are doing enough talking, there future use? is a serious problem with sewage in the Isle of Man - Mr. North: Mr. President, no, as far as I am aware no The President: Hon. member, if you have a question to consultations took place with the Department of Local ask on the statement, pose it. Government and the Environment. Mr. Kermode: I am going to do it right now, Mr. Mr. Cretney: Would the minister then not agree that a President. As there is a serious problem in the Isle of Man more sensible course of action might have been to have an can you give us an assurance that for a lot of the labour option to purchase, as would normally be the case, subject and work that is going to be put into the IRIS project you to planning permission, and that the way that this has been will be considering Manx-registered companies? gone about would be seen by some to be pre-empting the planning process? Mr. North: Mr. President, I can certainly give the hon. member the assurance that every effort to provide what he Mr. North: Mr. President, yes, I can agree with the hon. is looking for will be done. My department is already doing member for South Douglas because we did in fact try to get that with any project we consider and it will certainly be done an option on Meary Veg but unfortunately that was refused with the IRIS project. and we had to act fairly rapidly. Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, can this hon. Court have Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, can the hon. minister tell an assurance that no contracts will be broken, if it incurs this hon. Court has he got all the site that he requires as more costs to Government, without coming back to this hon. far as this purchase of this farm? Is it true that that is not Court in the first place? the case and we have not bought correctly as far as this farm is concerned? Mr. North: Sorry, I do not understand the 'contracts broken' piece, Mr. President. Mr. North: Mr. President, as I said in my statement, all of the land of Meary Veg will not be required for sewage Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, the problem is that when treatment purposes but there may need to be some contracts get broken, then there is another amount of design amendments to the site boundary. At this stage, until we fees that are incurred, one of the tricks of consultants which decide on the type of treatment, it is too early to say. we have suffered from in the past.

The President: The hon. member for Michael. Mr. North: Yes, Mr. President, I have full confidence in my chief executive who is monitoring this situation very Mr. Cannan: I have the answer, Mr. President. closely. We will not go outside financial regulations or the resolution approved by this Court. Mr. Groves: Might I ask the hon. minister what rights, if any, have been purchased with this acquisition? Mr. Quirk: Mr. President, in view of the apparent

Sewage — Strategy for Collection and Treatment — Statement by The Minister for Highways, Ports and Properties TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T21

acceptance of this situation would the minister now consider Mr. North: Yes, Mr. President, we did. In fact I was that an infill site in a somewhat similar area would be very aware that we had tried to get an option for this farm acceptable? and we were refused. We also were aware that another offer had been made for the farm, although it had been on the Mr. North: Infill site? market for something like 18 months two years, and we also have subsequently found out that one particular purchaser Mr. Quirk: For the waste. would have gone in and probably paid more than the asking price if he had known that we were about to purchase it. Mr. North: Mr. President, sorry, is the hon. member In fact we did consider using a company in the early stages for Council suggesting that an infill site - a landfill site, are to be absolutely, I suppose 'secretive' is the word, and trying you talking about? - for this farm? to keep it within the department, and in fact I think that the way things did work out we did purchase it at the asking Mr. Quirk: For the surrounding area. I myself have price and we did not run up against any sort of Dutch proposed, as you probably well know, that a farm closer auction on the farm. to Douglas should be bought for the purposes of an infill site. I wonder would it be acceptable? Mr. Quine: On the matter of disposal of sewage sludge could the minister confirm that if incineration is not Mr. North: No, Mr. President. I can assure the hon. available, then presumably this sludge will be conveyed to member for Council at this stage that although - and we have a landfill site and could he tell us what quantities does he had people over already from the CAA - although a sewage anticipate? treatment works is acceptable at Santon Head, and this was part of the assessment, in terms of landfill site or Mr. North: Well, all I know, Mr. President, I cannot incineration, because both attract a lot of birds it would not remember the quantities but there will certainly be a be acceptable on that farm. contribution from everybody. (Laughter) Certainly there are three options, as I said. One is to recycle the sludge and put Mr. Cretney: Mr. President, could I ask the minister in it to farm land or to the land, not necessarily agricultural view of the fact that his department has paid £35,000 for land. The other one is a landfill site - I think that would the shooting rights, in view of the fact that the re- be opposed, I suspect - and also, incineration. development of the site may be some way down the road, Certainly the department's policy at this stage, which is why he has reached the decision not to accept an offer to the major use, I think, in the United Kingdom in some areas, provide money for these shooting rights in the interim by is to put it to the land. But the policy has changed in the another party? last two years in that whereas the sludge used to go direct to land, it now is kept for six months to remove the various Mr. Kermode: He was worried about his health! pathogens after it has been dewatered and it is then spread on the land. But as I said earlier, the disposal of sludge is Mr. North: Basically, Mr. President, we have to be very something that is an on-going problem, not only throughout careful as to any rights we grant on that farm. We have the United Kingdom and the British Isles, throughout vacant possession of that farm and I intend at this stage - Europe, and it is being addressed and we are watching every we will consider all possibilities - but at this stage we want development. to retain vacant possession. The farm will be managed and I will take one further question. we will look after it in a proper manner. The President: in June of 1991 we were told Mr. Karran: YEaghtyrane, the report that will be in the Mr. Karran: YEaghtyrane, that there would be a report at the latest February. Now, Members' Room, is this the report that was supposed to be is the report that is going to be in the Members' room the issued last February and, if so, how does the project intend same report as this report in February? If not, what has to get rid of the settlement from IRIS if we are not to have an incinerator? And will he assure this Court that we will happened to that report, why has that report never come to see the light of day? That is what I am concerned about. not end up having to be forced down the road of then having to have an incinerator to get rid of the settlement from IRIS? The President: Will you answer, sir?

Mr. North: Yes, two points there, Mr. President. Mr. North: To be honest, Mr. President, I am not sure Certainly one of the options for the disposal of sludge is which report the hon. member for Onchan is talking about. through incineration and there are others, but it is a problem, It cannot be the one that will be in the Library, that I can the disposal of sludge, which is not unique to the Isle of Man assure him, because that report was only commissioned at and certainly it is an on-going problem which is being the beginning of this year because we wanted a proper investigated and addressed by every Water Authority independent option assessment of all the options. So, I am throughout the United Kingdom. sorry, I cannot answer the other part because I do not know The report in February - no, this Option Assessment about any other report. Report I think was only completed finally in September, August/September this year. In fact it was only commissioned, I think, early this year. GOVERNMENT WHOLLY-OWNED COMPANIES - Mr. Cretney: Mr. President, prior to the purchase of the REMOVAL OF CONFIDENTIAL CLASSIFICATION Meary Veg site did the department consider the setting up ON ACCOUNTS — AMENDED MOTION CARRIED of a private company for that purchase prior to them buying it as a department? The President: Hon. members, we now turn to item 6,

• Government Wholly-Owned Companies — Removal of Confidential Classification on-Accounts — Amended Motion Carried T22 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 a motion which was adjourned from the last sitting, and I share owned by John Frederick Kissack, and they have five call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr. Cannan. directors to supervise this company: William Alan Wilcocks, John Charles Fargher, Stewart William Watterson, Robert Mr. Cannan: Mr. President, I beg to move: Brisco MacGregor Quayle. The directors hold no shares. The beneficial owners are the Manx people. Yet for six months That Tynwald requests the Minister for the Treasury the Treasury Minister, at the behest of the directors who own to remove the confidential classification on the accounts for no shares and have no financial interest in the company, the financial years 1989/90 and 1990/91 of the Government refused to disclose the accounts. I am reminded of the wholly-owned companies and their subsidiaries and provide activities of the late Mr. Robert Maxwell who had a the fullest details of all financial transactions. reputation for bullying people to prevent them disclosing the accounts. This resolution is about the integrity of government, So we now know about that company and we know its accountability of government and open government, and directors, and then we see from the accounts that the Government wholly-owned companies belong to the people directors authorised a company to be established called of the Isle of Man who are the beneficial owners. Now, a Cushag Communications with two £1 shares, the £1 shares simple question was asked in another place on 7th April, being owned, one by Manx Radio Limited and the other by `Can we have the accounts?', and for six months the row Stewart William Watterson. But prior to that of course, as went on, and on and on, and the Treasury Minister refused we have been informed in another place over the summer to sanction any information to the elected representatives months, they came to the Treasury and were told they could of the people. At last today somewhere some vision has not do it. So they got that Treasury decision overruled, and occurred over the recess where he suddenly decided that we of course there is only one place where you can get a ought to have a little more open government, and so he has Treasury decision overruled, and they established a company this morning said that the accounts that he gave us in June and they poured into it, as you will see from the accounts and the accounts which he has given us today no longer have ending in the first instance 31st March 1991, according to confidential cover. the reports, which are no longer confidential, as the minister But the accounts are, to a certain extent, a minimum. This said in answer to a question this morning, they allowed to resolution is about the fullest details of all financial be poured into that the sum of £82,667, and the auditors transactions and I intend to say this morning why is this reported, in fact they gave an adverse report, ity is here: 'The necessary that we have details of the fullest financial accounts of the subsidiary made up to 31st March 1991 show transactions, because the accounts that we are given are not an excess of liabilities over assets at that date of £68,779.' accountable and do not give full information of what I They were hoping that they might get something back. 'The believe we should have. audit report of the subsidiary company having been qualified Now, first of all 1 will look at the accounts of National with regard to its ability to pay its liabilities as and when Transport Limited. We could not have them before. They they fall due. Consequently, we', that is, the auditors, 'are were all secret, but in actual fact the company is dormant unable to gain assurance that the investment in the subsidiary and has been dormant for years, but you could not tell is recoverable by the company.', and those distinguished anybody, that was secret, it was one of the Treasury gentlemen that were Directors of Manx Radio and then Minister's great secrets. But in actual fact if you look at the appointed themselves Directors of Cushag Communications, blue book of the Government accounts it is written in there in spite of getting a qualified auditor's report allowed the that they are a dormant company, so those accounts were business to carry on using public money and public money confidential until today. as a security. In private business those directors would not And now another Government-owned company is the have lasted. They had no security. The only collateral they Laxey Glen Mills, and at last I think and I hope that all had was public money in Manx Radio, and so they members of Tynwald will join with me in congratulating the manoeuvred the accounts to pay off £20,000 in that year new Directors of Laxey Glen Mills on their achievement in of the business development loan and then in the current turning round the fortunes of that company. For 10 years year, as from the accounts which are before you, they have in this hon. Court Laxey Glen Mills has been a great written off £75,000: nearly £100,000 of public money contention, it has required much public money, and then written off with no explanation. I believe the people of the when we knew, or some of us knew, that the directors, Henry Isle of Man who own the company - they are the Thomas Robinson and John Raymond Kniveton, had at last shareholders, the real shareholders - should know what got to grips with it we could not tell anybody and we could happened and I believe the directors should give an not congratulate them and we could not tell them the amount accountability of why they allowed all this nonsense to carry that they had started to put the company on the road to on. success. So there we are. I congratulate, and I hope it is on Now, I know that the matter has gone to the Public behalf of everybody, those two gentlemen for what they have Accounts Committee and I know that there are a lot of done for Laxey Glen Mills. questions outstanding, but it is important that we know why And now we return to the third of the state secrets up to a director was introduced called Roger Anthony Atyeo. It today, the third of the state secrets. National Transport was is in the General Registry. His business occupation was one of them, Laxey Glen Mills was the other and now we advertising and PR executive and he was an Australian. He have Radio Manx Limited and their subsidiary, Cushag was brought in and money was poured in apparently to keep Communications, and I think that all members should know everything going and these distinguished mainboard a bit more about what has happened and how the substantial directors never asked what was going on. In two and a half losses or business loans, unrecoverable in the accounts, have years they lost £95,000. It is not bad going when you know been allowed to happen and why no action has been taken. that the Government is going to pick up the tab. You see, Mr. President, the fullest details of all financial So we are at last, and I congratulate all members of transactions. Radio Manx Limited is a £2 company. One Tynwald in this, approving the Audit Act amendments and £1 share owned by John Alfred Cashen and the other £1 today signing the Statute Law Revision Bill which will in

Government Wholly-Owned Companies — Removal of Confidential Classification on Accounts — Amended Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T23 future make all their transactions public year by year. But would appear that I personally am being accused of being there are two items which people widely talk about and I secretive and keeping these confidential. We are trying to would like the Treasury Minister to confirm or deny. It is work with directors of a company which we put there to do a rumour that the principal account of Cushag a job for us. Now, if we are not satisfied with the job that Communications was Sea Containers Limited and Mr. they are doing for us, there is one thing we can do, and I James Sherwood. I would like him either to confirm or deny think that again is up to the Government. that, and that this company was kept on being used with But what I am really saying is that to try to go along with public money, its debts, in order to have as its main business the resolution that we have before us today, that every detail client, as I say, Sea Containers and Mr. James Sherwood, must be supplied, is totally unpractical. So therefore I would and that the chief executive of the company, this Australian not wish to enter into an argument with the hon. member gentleman, was provided with a very expensive car in order who is trying to mislead the Court saying that £100,000 has to carry out his activities and which car, I understand, has been written off when he knows how to read the accounts not yet been able to be sold. and he knows fully well that it is £75,000. But, however, So what I am really saying is that while I am satisfied that I would like to move the amendment which I have had the main confidentiality of the accounts has been removed circulated to members: at last and after a long struggle and myself being harangued by Manx Radio - That the words "and provide the fullest details of all financial transactions" be deleted. Mr. Brown: Ah! Mr. Radcliffe: I beg to second the amendment in the Members: Shame! name of the hon. member for Malew and Santon.

Mr. Cannan: Yes, shame on this issue - the public Mr. Brown: Vote! require and I believe Tynwald require that the fullest details of all financial transactions should be disclosed. The President: Do you wish to reply, sir?

Mr. Quine: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Mr. Cannan: Yes, sir. I too can read accounts, in response to the Treasury Minister, and if he looks on page Mr. Gelling: Mr. President, As members have found on 4 of the current accounts he will see that the Business their desks this morning, we have circulated to members the Development Loan lost £20,000 in 1991 and £75,000 in 1992, accounts, as I answered in a question this morning, of the and that is £95,000 in my view. I have not been misleading Isle of Man National Transport Limited who I informed the Court - there we are, and we also see on page 9 that the members at least six months ago did not function and also loan is secured by way of a conditional bond and security, Laxey Glen Mills Limited and Radio Manx Limited for the in other words re-mortgaged, over the company's property financial year ending the 31st March 1992. Now, these known as Broadcasting House and a floating security on the accounts show the most recent up-to-date position of each company's other fixed assets. of those Government companies. These are matters, I think, of concern and should be of Now, I have no objection to the removal of the concern. The Treasury Minister, in his remarks, said that confidential classification on the accounts of these of course he had confidence in the directors. I think the companies for the financial years 1989/90, 1990/91 also directors ought to give a statement as to what on earth they which I replied in a supplementary question answer this were doing in the matter of Cushag Communications and morning. But I do urge members to view these accounts in how they came to allow this financial collapse. They would the light of the 1991/92 accounts circulated today. do in any other situation, hon. members. It seems Incidentally, contrary to what has been said, the accounts extraordinary that they are excluded. of our companies have not always been made freely available And the other little bit of phase that we have just had to to everyone, but I think people's memories do get a little listen to was their accounts were never previously available. hazy over the years. Well, if you just look in Hansard, the accounts of Laxey It is not possible or practical to provide the fullest details Glen Mills, during my term of office, were paraded in and of all financial transactions for these companies. This is out of this Court because we were busy pumping money into simply because I am not provided with such detailed them. No accounts were ever kept back from anybody, and, information for the various companies and I do not think as I say, this argument, which I hope now comes to an end, it appropriate that the company should be asked to provide would have been resolved on 7th April had the Treasury the details of every transaction in the accounts. Should I ask Minister done what he has done today and that is just acted the question: is it really practical to provide details right properly and said, 'Yes, there are the accounts for hon. down to the petty cash account? Now, Government has members.' I beg to move. installed directors in each of these companies to run the companies to the best of their ability, and I feel that we must The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out allow them to carry out that job to the best of their ability at item 6 on your Agenda Paper and to that resolution we on our behalf. Now, it is therefore not appropriate to have the amendment which has been circulated in the name approve their every transaction. of the hon. member, the Minister for the Treasury. I will Now, the annual accounts and the directors' report of each put the amendment first of all. Will those in favour of the of the companies provide the main details that are amendment standing part of the resolution please say aye; appropriate for the shareholders and for the Government against, no. as a whole and therefore, having listened to the mover of the resolution, I find it difficult to understand when he was A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: in my position only just over three years ago when these accounts were not made available to everyone and now it In the Keys -

Government Wholly-Owned Companies — Removal of Confidential Classification on Accounts — Amended Motion Carried T24 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

For: Messrs. Gilbey, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, Brown, That the Acquisition of Land (Fees) Order 1992 be May, Corlett, Kermode, Downie, Mrs. Hannan, Messrs. approved. Bell, Groves, Karran, Corkill, Waft, Gelling and the Speaker - 17 This order provides for a two-tier fee structure for unqualified lay persons and professionally qualified persons Against: Messrs. Cannan, Quine, Dr. Mann, Messrs. acting as official arbitrators for the purposes of the Duggan and Delaney - 5 Acquisition of Land Act 1984. The existing level of fees for unqualified lay persons has The Speaker: Mr. President, the amendment carries in been increased by the Retail Prices Index and rounded to the House of Keys with 17 votes recorded in favour and 5 the nearest 50p, and a new higher hourly rate of £56 is against. prescribed for those persons holding a professional qualification. I beg to move. In the Council - Mr. Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Lowey, Radcliffe, Quirk, Barton, Anderson, Callin, Irving and Luft - 9 The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members, standing at item 9 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in favour Against: Nil please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: In the Council, 9 votes in favour of the amendment and no votes against, the amendment therefore carries. I will put, therefore, the resolution as amended now to the Court. Will those in favour of the resolution as TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (FEES FOR amended please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The APPLICATIONS) ORDER 1992 — APPROVED ayes have it. The President: Item 10, the Minister for Local Government and the Environment.

IMMIGRATION (FEES) ORDER 1992 — APPROVED Mr. Brown: Thank you, Mr. President, I beg to move:

The President: Now, hon. members, with your That the Town and Country Planning (Fees for agreement I would like to bypass item 7 until after the Applications) Order 1992 be approved. luncheon break and at this stage proceed with item 8 and subsequent items. Item 8, then, the Minister for the Hon. members have in fact been circulated with an Treasury. explanatory note which I hope has explained it and I wish to reserve my remarks. Mr. Gelling: Mr. President, I beg to move: Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir. That the Immigration (Fees) Order 1992 be approved. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution The Immigration (Fees) Order 1992 introduces two new standing at item 10 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in charges to be levied under the Fees and Duties Act 1989. favour please say aye, against, no. The ayes have it. The The first sets the fee to be charged for applications for a ayes have it. certificate of entitlement to the right of abode at £18. In the United Kingdom a charge has been made for the issue of this certificate for at least two years. The charge now being introduced in the Isle of Man is the same as that currently DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION — EXCESS being charged in the United Kingdom. EXPENDITURE AUTHORISED The second charge to be introduced allows Crown Division of Government Office to make a £50 charge when The President: Item 11, the Minister for Education. staff are called outside of the usual office hours to issue a passport. I beg to move item 8 on the Agenda Paper. Mrs. Hannan: Thank you, Mr. President, I beg to move:

Mr. Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr. President. That Tynwald authorises the Treasury in respect of the year ended 31st March 1992 - The President: I will put the resolution, hon. members. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes (1) to apply surplus receipts totalling £452,161 of have it. The ayes have it. the Department of Education in payment of excess expenditure; and

(2) to apply from general revenue the sum of ACQUISITION OF LAND (FEES) ORDER £417,807 in payment of excess expenditure by 1992 — APPROVED the Department of Education.

The President: Item 9, the Minister for the Treasury. I will clarify one or two of the points if I may. The department exceeded its gross budget estimate for the year Mr. Gelling: Mr. President, I beg to move: ended 31st March 1992 by £869,968 which represents 2.38

Immigration (Fees) Order 1992 — Approved Acquisition of Land (Fees) Order 1992 — Approved Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications) Order 1992 — Approved Department of Education — Excess Expenditure Authorised TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T25

per cent. of the budget. The two main budget heads Fund Investment Account of the balance carried forward overspent were aid to students and teachers' into 1992/93 and unfortunately the excess in receipts is superannnuation. insufficient to cover the excess in gross expenditure, hence I have circulated a document. If members would like the supplementary vote which is required from general further clarification I will certainly clarify the points. The revenue. I beg to move, sir. aid to students was £510,000; the superannuation overspend was £263,433. I beg to move. Mr. Barton: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Mr. Karran: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 12 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in Mr. Corlett: Mr. President, I would like clarification of favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The the item which merely says, 'in the interests of the service' ayes have it. and standing at £218,000.

Mrs. Hannan: Mr. President, 'in the interests of the service' it means that someone retires, maybe due to ill health ROOF SPACE INSULATION SCHEME or some other situation whereby it can be deemed that it 1992 — APPROVED can be in the interest of the efficient discharge of the employer's functions. In this case this is due to the payout The President: Now, with your permission I propose to of teachers' superannuation, and in this case there were seven be a little selective with the Agenda Paper at this stage and teachers from King William's College and the Buchan who I would like, hon. members, if you would agree, to move were offered early retirement under that heading, 'in the on to item 16. (It was agreed.) With your agreement, the interests and the efficient discharge of the employer's Minister for Local Government and the Environment. functions, following amalgamation of King Williams College and the Buchan School. The cost to the department of Mr. Brown: Mr. President, I beg to move: superannuation benefits for the year ended 31st March was £111,000. That the Roof Space Insulation Scheme 1992 be approved. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 11 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in I reserve my remarks, and, as I say, a matter has been favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The circulated to members with information. I beg to move. ayes have it. Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir.

The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY standing at item 16 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in — EXCESS EXPENDITURE AUTHORISED favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: Item 12, the Minister for Health and Social Security.

Mr. May: Mr. President, I beg to move: RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY (REWIRING) SCHEME 1992 — APPROVED That Tynwald authorises the Treasury in respect of the year ended 31st March 1992 - The President: Item 17, the Minister for Local Government and the Environment. (1) to apply surplus receipts totalling £4,216,068 of the Department of Health and Social Security Mr. Brown: Mr. President, I beg to move: in payment of excess expenditure; and That the Residential Property (Rewiring) Scheme 1992 (2) to apply from general revenue the sum of be approved. £247,324 in payment of excess expenditure by the Department of Health and Social Security. Again a memorandum has been circulated with details of the scheme and therefore I reserve my remarks. I have cause to submit the resolution to the hon. Court seeking approval to the department's excess gross Mr. Kermode: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. expenditure of £4.46 million in the year ended 31st March 1992. As can be seen from the memorandum which I have The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution had circulated to hon. members, £3.4 million is attributable standing at item 17 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in purely to an accounting technicality under the National favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Insurance Fund Operating Account and it represents the ayes have it. balance of the operating account carried forward in that account to 1992/93. No carry-forward had been anticipated at 1991/92 Budget time and Treasury has advised us that PUBLIC SECTOR HOUSING — WINDOW the carry-forward must be treated as a gross payment. REPLACEMENTS — EXPENDITURE APPROVED The excess receipts on the NI Fund Operating Account arise largely through deferment of a transfer into the NI The President: Item 18, hon. members, the Minister for

Department of Health and Social Security — Excess Expenditure Authorised Roof Space Insulation Scheme 1992 — Approved Residential Property (Rewiring) Scheme 1992 — Approved Public Sector Housing — Window Replacements — Expenditure Approved T26 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Local Government and the Environment. to them under the proper item when that comes forward. In the meantime I beg to move. Mr. Brown: Mr. President, I beg to move: The President: I will put the resolution standing at item That Tynwald - 18 on the Agenda Paper, hon. members. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have (1) approves the Department of Local Government it. and the Environment expending a sum not exceeding £150,000 on window replacements to existing public sector housing;

(2) authorises the Treasury to expend out of the BEEF COW SUBSIDY SCHEME 1992 — APPROVED - Consolidated Loan Fund during the year ending ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE AUTHORISED 31st March 1993 a sum not exceeding £150,000 to meet the cost of the above; and The President: Item 19, the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. (3) approves of and sanctions borrowings not exceeding £150,000 being made by Government, Mr. Corrin: Mr. President, I beg to move: such borrowings to be repaid within a period of 20 years. That -

Again a memorandum has been sent explaining the basis (a) the Beef Cow Subsidy Scheme 1992 be of our schemes for window replacements and I therefore approved; and reserve my remarks. (b) Tynwald authorises the Treasury to apply from Mr. Kermode: I beg to second that too and reserve my the general revenue during the year ending 31st remarks, Mr. President. March 1993, an additional sum not exceeding £80,000 to meet the extra costs of the scheme. Mr. Quirk: Mr. President, one of the points that has been brought home very forcibly to me over this last I think it is important to say a few words about item 19 considerable time has been the lack of funding for registered and also to say that my comments apply equally to the next buildings or buildings which are controlled by registration. item, item 20. There have been times when people have wanted to get on The purpose of both schemes is to encourage the with their repairs to their particular property and there has production of good quality beef cattle. Both schemes provide been a lack of funding here, and I would like the minister for payment not on the beef animal itself but on the suckler to assure me that there will be funding in for these people. cow which is the mother which produces the beef animal. It is very important. They are caught in a trap where they Payments are only made on cows which have been certified have to supply, where they have to replace by standard as being of an appropriate beef herd. articles which are more costly than what they would be in Livestock-based production systems are the mainstay of the commercial world and it is right that in that situation Manx agriculture and take advantage of the natural they should receive practical and essential assistance. So I advantages of the Island in terms of grass production. It would like your assurance, Mr. Minister, that they will is desirable to encourage the production of good quality beef receive a compensation according to what they wish to do. cattle because this provides for adequate levels of throughput through the existing abattoir and, in the future, the new meat Mr. Kemode: Mr. President, I totally support this plant in which the Government is investing a significant sum. scheme and I am grateful that the minister has come back It all produces a better quality product for onward sale, for for the finance for this scheme today. For a long time now higher returns, and that is most important. I have heard people within this hon. Court and in other Now, the proposals before the hon. Court today are very places claiming that the private sector, when they get to a much a catching-up exercise, intending to restore levels of certain age, are always penalised because over the years they support in the Isle of Man similar to the levels as those have saved up, bought their own property and not relied on appertaining in the United Kingdom, and I must emphasise local authority or Government housing, and this is a that the current proposals do not represent the department's situation where you get some of our elderly people in our response to the recent reform of the European Community community that retire, they end up with having high cost Common Agricultural Policy but provide for a base on of living, higher rates and everything and yet they have still which the Manx reaction to the CAP reforms can be based. got to live, and this scheme does help those people within The proposals now put forward have been finalised after that bracket as far as I have been lead to believe. full consultation with the industry's representatives and they are supportive of the aims I beg to move. The President: Reply, sir? Mr. Anderson: I beg to second, Mr. President, and Yes, Mr. President, I think there has been Mr. Brown: reserve my remarks. a bit of confusion by the members who have spoken that in fact they are talking of item 15 which we have not yet moved which is the one we bypassed at this stage until later. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution This is to do with window replacements in the public sector standing at item 19 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in housing which is item 18, and I think it would be favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The appropriate, if members wish to raise it, that I will respond ayes have it.

Beef Cow Subsidy Scheme 1992 — Approved — Additional Expenditure Authorised TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T27

HILL COW SUBSIDY SCHEME 1992 — APPROVED The President: If the Court is agreeable I am quite happy — ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE AUTHORISED to do so.

The President: Item 20, again the Minister for Mr. May: But item 29, sir, is quite a substantial one and Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. you may not wish to commence that at this stage of the proceedings, Mr. President. I am quite happy. Mr. Corrin: Mr. President, I beg to move: Mr. Delaney: Grab it with both hands, Bernie! That - The President: How long is your speech, sir? (a) The Hill Cow Subsidy Scheme 1992 be approved; and Mr. Kermode: It is long! (Laughter)

(b) that Tynwald authorises the Treasury to apply Mr. May: It is about six or seven minutes, sir. from the general revenue during the year ending 31st March 1993 an additional sum not The President: Hon. members, I think in the interests exceeding £52,000 to meet the extra costs of the of doing justice to the issue before us we should reconsider scheme. our position there and leave over items 28 and 29.

I reserve my remarks.

Mr. Anderson: I beg to second, Mr. President. MERCHANT SHIPPING (SAFETY PROVISIONS) (APPLICATION) ORDER 1992 — APPROVED The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 20 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in The President: Perhaps, however, we could move on the favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The merchant shipping. and have the Minister for Highways, ayes have it. Ports and Properties deal with item 30.

Mr. North: Mr. President, a memorandum has been circulated for members and I beg to move: DOG LICENCE (EXEMPTION) REGULATIONS That the Merchant Shipping (Safety Provisions) The President: Item 21 is a substantial item which I (Application) Order 1992 be approved. propose, again with your permission, to bypass and, hon. members, could we proceed to item 27 in the few remaining Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir. minutes that we have? Item 27, if the Minister for Local Government and the Environment is ready, the Dog Licence The President: May I put the resolution standing at item (Exemption) Regulations. 30 then, hon. members, on the Agenda Paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Mr. Brown: Yes, Mr. President, I am happy to move ayes have it. that if you so wish:

That the Dog Licence (Exemption) Regulations 1992 be approved. TRADE MARKS (CUSTOMS) (ISLE OF MAN) ORDER 1992 — APPROVED Again a memorandum has been circulated to members with regards to the change in this and I therefore beg to move The President: Item 31, the Trade Marks Act, the the motion standing in my name at item 27 on the Agenda Chairman of the Board of Consumer Affairs. and reserve my remarks. Mr. Kermode: Mr. President, I beg to move: Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir. That the Trade Marks (Customs) (Isle of Man) Order The President: I will put the resolution then, hon. 1992 be approved. members, standing at item 27 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have Although it has been circulated, I would like to read it it. The ayes have it. out just for the public's benefit; it will take two minutes. I would like to say in moving this that provision has been made within the Copyright Act 1991 for the seizure by customs, at the copyright owner's request, of pirated works PROCEDURAL imported into the Isle of Man. The Treasury recently made the Copyright Customs Regulations 1992 to supplement that The President: Item 28, the Minister for Health and provision. Similar provision is made by the Trade Marks Social Security. Act 1938 of Parliament as it has effect in the Isle of Man in relation to fake branded goods - fake Levi's and Rolex Mr. May: Mr. President, I did request permission of the watches and such like. Clerk to Tynwald that item 28 and 29, we have been As trade in fake branded goods is now on the increase approached to take them together, sir. it could be embarrassing if the Isle of Man could be used

Hill Cow Subsidy Scheme 1992 — Approved — Additional Expenditure Authorised Dog Licence (Exemption) Regulations Procedural Merchant Shipping (Safety Provisions) (Application) Order 1992 — Approved Trade Marks (Customs) (Isle of Man) Order 1992 — Approved T28 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 as a backdoor through which fakes could be imported into Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir. the British Isles and I therefore urge you to support the introduction of this order. Thank you, Mr. President, sir. Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, could I just ask the Attorney-General what sort of financial implications will Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir. there be as far as the legal aid vote is concerned by passing this resolution? Mr. Downie: Mr. President, I would just like to ask the chairman, in view of the tremendous range of goods now The Attorney-General: Mr. President, I am afraid I am that are pirated, which range from videos, perfume, clothes, not able to answer that. The civil legal aid of course only watches, does he envisage having to take on any staff or any comprises a part of the total Legal Aid Bill. Criminal legal form of inspectorate who will examine these goods, and if aid is not affected by this, nor is the green form scheme they are found to be defective or reproduced, what steps affected by this. So I am afraid I have not got a breakdown. would he take to dispose of them? It will obviously increase to some limited extent but I do not think it will be significant. Mr. Delaney: I have one or two questions, Mr. President. In congratulating the chairman could I ask him The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution this as regards to people who are actually in business within standing at item 32 on the Agenda Paper. Will those in the Island? Most of the fancy goods shops in Douglas and favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The around the Island carry already groups of these watches, ayes have it. Rolex et cetera, with the markings on. Is the chairman saying I think it an appropriate time to adjourn, hon. members. the situation is that they will no longer be able to be imported The adjournment will be until 2.30 and at that time we will or these people will not be able to retail the ones they still go back to item 7 and deal with the policy issue. Thank you. have in stock? Because there are large quantities of stock available, unfortunately. And would he indicate to the Court The Court adjourned at 1.00 p.m. whether or not it covers just on the complaint of the person who manufacturers or has the trademark or from any other person, just clear that? GOVERNMENT POLICY REPORT 1992 - DEBATE COMMENCED The President: Reply, sir? The President: Hon. members, we turn to item 7 on our Mr. Kermode: I will take the last question first. Agenda Paper and I call on the Chief Minister to move the Certainly if there is a complaint to my department or to any resolution standing in his name. officers within my department we will act on that complaint. Now, if the hon. member for East Douglas, my colleague, Mr. Walker: Mr. President, I beg to move: has got any information relating to goods of this nature being sold in a particular shop, if he would like to ring That Tynwald receives the Policy Report 1992 and Consumer Affairs I am sure my officers will act on that information. (a) approves the report as a statement of policy; and I thank the hon. member for West Douglas for his comments as well and can assure him that any goods that (b) endorses, as a general strategy, the provisional we find are disposed of in a manner by which they will never programmes of legislation, revenue and capital be circulated in public again. And that is it, Mr. President. expenditure and other initiatives contained therein. The President: Hon. members, I will put the resolution standing at item 31, on the Agenda Paper. Will those in I am pleased to present our policy report to Tynwald this favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The afternoon. But before I do so, can I draw members' ayes have it. attention to page 69 and page 70 of the document. There is a table at the bottom of page 69; the hon. member, Mr. Delaney, drew our attention to a mistake with the notation on the left hand side of that table. and the top figure should read '20,000'. In fact, we need add a nought to those four LEGAL AID (REMUNERATION) REGULATIONS 1992 figures so the number of bedrooms reduced to 20,000 down to 5,000 rather than 2,000 down to 500. The other point I The President: And, finally, item 32, Legal Aid, the would draw attention to, Mr. President, is paragraph 19.7 learned Attorney-General. where we make a statement that the local operators have been afforded the luxury of maintaining fares and retaining The Attorney-General: Mr. President, I beg to move: profitability, and I would just like hon. members to know that Manx Airlines have in fact been in touch with me and That the Legal Aid (Remuneration) Regulations 1992 suggest that they may well be in line for making a loss this be approved. year rather than maintaining profitability as we say in that paragraph, but I would just like to clear those two particular A memorandum has been circulated to members by the points with hon. members. Legal Aid Committee with regard these regulations. The Mr. President, this year there have been particular regulations abolish the 10 per cent. deduction in the problems in putting our policy document together, problems remuneration paid to advocates in civil cases under the Legal because of rapidly changing external circumstances. We Aid Act 1986 and the reason for this change was described cannot avoid the impact on the Island of what happens in the memorandum. around us and there is a real question as to whether the

Legal Aid (Remuneration) Regulations 1992 Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T29

current United Kingdom recession with its continuing job it as our goal to achieve at least parity with the UK in the losses and cut-backs will be the dominant influence on us short to medium term. The growth that is reflected in the or whether the UK, leaving the Exchange Rate Mechanism, statistics is not to be found in all sections of the economy the devaluation of the pound and lower interest rates, will and we have to be concerned about our traditional industries spark the beginnings of recovery. We have approached this and those who depend on them, for they are struggling. problem of uncertainty by adopting a cautious approach in But the financial sector continues to strengthen. It grew our expectations and by reaffirming our basic policies and by 14 per cent. in 1990/91 and it is now the biggest employer goals because we believe that they continue to be valid and of any of the primary sectors of the economy. Although to be right. But we have attached to our programme a there has been some slowdown, many firms are still particular degree of flexibility so that we can add to or recruiting and expanding and remain very optimistic about subtract from those programmes according to how the future. I have no doubt that, provided we maintain our circumstances develop over the next two to three years. Our supportive approach and the Island and the Island's people general approach, therefore, is stability - to continue to maintain a supportive approach, that the finance industry pursue the same goals to continue existing services within will lead the Island through the current difficulties into the financial and staff resources available and to continue resumed growth in the future. In any discussion the finance with our programme of long-term investment in the Island, sector tends to get aggregated but it is important to recognise but to be sufficiently light on our feet that we can trim or a diversity that exists within the sector and that diversity is expand our activities according to circumstances. illustrated by the table at the bottom of page 9 which In this introduction I would like to concentrate on parts identifies the number employed in each part of the sector. 1 and 2 of the report, which present the general overview This diversity is healthy in that it provides stability and it which need to be the core of today's debate. Part 1 begins also illustrates that the Island has a broadly based with a chapter which restates and elaborates on attractiveness for financial business of various types. Government's central policies. The seven policies were set The report mentions some of the initiatives that have been out and endorsed in the 1991 report and they remain valid. taken to promote the sector over the last year. Promotional We have expanded on them by setting out more specific work is, of course, on-going and it is not always readily objectives which flow from the policies. Those policies and apparent on the Island because by its nature it usually occurs objectives provide the bedrock for the departmental activities off-Island and is in periodicals and quality journals which and Government programmes which follow in the rest of circulate in other parts of the world. That emphasis will the report. continue. Chapter 2 focuses on the central planning asumptions This year's legislative programme includes the Income Tax which were first set down in the 1990 report and which have (International Companies) Bill and that will extent exempt been refined each year since then. It is with some concern companies legislation to public and quota companies. The that the assumptions about growth have had to be revised same Bill will also allow accepted limited partnerships and downwards, but it would be irresponsible of us to ignore this will be a particular assistance for business involving what it going on around us and we have sought to reflect shipping and in fund management. Although not yet in our assumptions a realistic appreciation of what we see featuring in the programme, we are likely to be able to as being likely to happen. It is worth stressing that whilst promote some change in our trust law to give greater we acknowledge a lack of growth in the short term, we do certainty to settlers and beneficiaries. This should encourage see the Island at least holding its own and, in the longer term, major new source of business for the Island. Capital duty resuming the sort of healthy economic expansion that we has been kept at £5,000 for companies and partnership enjoyed in the late 1980s. capital duty has been abolished. By prescribing the Hong The chapter on the economy is, of course, the important Kong Stock Exchange the prospectus requirements of the one. So much of our future and what we would want to do Isle of Man's Companies Acts have been relaxed, making depends on how the economy preforms and that, at the end the Island more attractive to corporate business. We hope of the day, is not dictated by Government; it is determined to extend that facility to most other member countries of by external factors and by the everyday decisions of dozens the OECD. French and German versions of our corporate or hundreds of people in business on and off the Island. growth will shortly be available and a foreign language What we can do is create an environment which is attractive media campaign will be commenced soon after. to business, encouraging to business and supportive of As regards promotion and marketing of the Island as an business. We promote the Island in these terms and can boast offshore business centre, we participate regularly in events a track record of considerable success over the last five or in various parts of the world and are always ready to six years, but we should never deceive ourselves into participate with the private sector in joint initiatives to believing that within Government we can wave a wand or promote this Island. Offshore financial services is a adjust a few mechanisms and turn on a supply of economic competitive business environment. Our unique combination expansion at will. of geographic position, stability and the progressive Our Policy Report does, however, set out explicitly our approach to securing good quality business has allowed emphatic commitment to the pursuit of economic growth. considerable growth within that environment, but we cannot We have provided in the report a commentary on the world afford to stand still. Quality, reputation and value for money and UK economic situation. That has been changing so must be dominant in all our thinking. rapidly over recent weeks it has been difficult to keep the Manufacturing industry continues to be a vital ingredient draft report up to date, and the situation remains far from in our present and future economic strategy. It provides a clear. The important thing to recognise, though, is that the diversification away from the finance industry and an Island's economy is still growing, albeit slowly. The alternative form of employment for those unsuited or spectacular growth of the late 1980s has faded but growth disinterested in the more sedentary type of work which the is still there. It was 4 per cent. in 1991 and an estimated 1 finance industry generates. Our latest figures are from 1991 per cent. in 1991/92. We are therefore still gaining on the and these show a decline in numbers employed in UK in terms of national income per head and we still have manufacturing but an increase in the contribution to national 4110 Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced T30 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 income. This contribution in 1990/91 stood at some £53 underway. The agreement of the Council of Ministers to the million - a significant amount. department's proposals postdates the report that is in front Members will have no illusions about the condition of of members. manufacturing industry in the United Kingdom. No day goes In due course, Mr. President, it will be necessary for the by without the announcement of more bankruptcies, plant department's proposals to come before Tynwald for closures and redundancies. It is to the credit of local approval because there are considerable financial industrialists that they survive and remain competitive in implications. There are however, two points which should what is becoming increasingly a hostile environment. Indeed, be made now: first, our response to the CAP reform it is possible for us to point to some very welcome and reaffirms our support for the Island's agriculture industry, expansionist developments: we can point to the construction and secondly there will be a need to accommodate the of the new corporate headquarters for Strix at Ronaldsway; financial implications of our response within our estimates. to the new factory for Marown Engineering at Ballafletcher; These implications are not included at present and they will the continued development of Pacini in the freeport and to serve to make next year's potential revenue account deficit the very recent arrival on the island of Racal Health and worse and they will make the task of balancing the Safety Limited, who are part of one of the UK's largest Government's books that much more difficult. industrial concerns. Tourism, too, is having a difficult time. Members will not The Department of Industry remains vigorous in its efforts need to await the official verdict of arrival numbers to know to promote manufacturing. Recently we saw the introduction that this season has been a poor one. The Isle of Man is not, of a new scheme which offers financial assistance to all of course, unique in this respect; a similar verdict is been export-related small business to help them achieve recognised handed down on the 1992 summer season from all around quality standards such as BS5750. There is now a manpower the coast of the United Kingdom and the Channel Islands. committee to co-ordinate and lead policy related to all Within the generally disappointing story of tourism there employment matters. There is a joint industry consultative are those who have still done well. This is particularly true committee with the Chamber of Commerce to increase outside Douglas and there are clear indications that the contact with local industry and, looking ahead, the problem with tourism is particularly relevant to the Douglas department is proposing the production of a new sea front. The consequent neglect and dereliction to be found promotional brochure aimed specifically at the attraction on the promenade is a testimony to the decline in Douglas's of industrial investment. It is continuing negotiations on the tourism and is now a contributory factor to that decline. creation of an equity fund scheme and the provision of risk That cycle of depression needs to be reversed. It is our belief capital. There are other proposals to use counsellors to that the Island should sustain a tourist industry, not the mass provide advisory services to firms and to launch a scheme tourism of yesteryear but a discerning and a sophisticated similar to the Northern Ireland partnership in order to utilise tourism which makes up with the individual spending power expertise and friends of the Island over here and in target what it lacks in numbers. It is inconceivable that somewhere areas for promotion, to assist in our promotional efforts with the natural attributes and attractions of our Island and to back up local companies' marketing plans. should not have a viable tourist future. The Council of Ministers has given its support in principle To foster this tourism we have sought to maintain and to the concept of simplified planning process for designated enhance the tourism product. Assistance is available to industrial areas in order to avoid unnecessary planning upgrade tourist premises; the Government itself funds many delays which are counter-productive and which are costly. of the Island's attractions - sport and leisure facilities, trains So whilst manufacture may have its difficulties, there are and electric trams, the castles and other sites improved and solid acheivements which we can point to and no shortage managed so well by Manx National Heritage. We encourage of ideas to help maintain success and growth into the future. conferences and a considerable range of events and But Mr President, it is in the area of our traditional attractions and we operate a substantial marketing budget. industries that the greatest problems are apparent. Our commitment to these attractions and to this expenditure Agriculture has had to contend with low world prices and will continue in the future. There are further plans to Government-inspired world over-production for some years. enhance the product: the National Indoor Sports Centre, These difficulties have not been helped by the very the Celtic and Viking Heritage Centre, to give just two considerable uncertainty created by the GATT talks and the significant examples. The Tourist Department has undergone proposal to reform the Common Agricultural Policy. some restructuring this year and we look to a number of Throughout this difficult period we have kept faith with our improvements next year; we now have the Tourist Board agricultural industry. We have committed substantial and the Tourist Marketing Committee established and resource in supporting the industry financially, we have operating. These have a significant private sector provided an expert advisory and educational service and we involvement and a direct input from the industry. We expect have assisted individual farms with capital projects and, to see the new Mount Murray development in operation, most recently, have committed substantial funds for the and that will be the biggest single investment in tourism the provision of the new meat plant. Island has yet seen. We will have the Year of Railways to As regards the future it is only now becoming clear what celebrate the centenary of the Manx Electric Railway and the reform of the CAP will imply in general terms: it means special marketing has been undertaken to take advantage a change of emphasis in agricultural support away from of that centenary. There is, I believe, a real possibility of production-based incentive towards direct income support. improvements to the passenger sea service to the Island next As an agriculturist, I think a sad day. It also means increased year, and I feel encouraged by the more enterprising direct Government funding. The Department of Agriculture, approach being adopted by the new management of the Isle Fisheries and Forestry has formulated a set of broad of Man Steam Packet Company. A Crown Grading Scheme proposals as response to the CAP reforms and these has been introduced and will assist our marketing. A new proposals have been endorsed by the Council of Ministers. advertising agency has been appointed and there are various So recent is this development that the Policy Report confirms proposals for enhanced marketing and the events only the examination of the implication of CAP reform is programme. Furthermore, the devaluation of sterling, which

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T31 will increase the price of foreign holidays, should encourage few months if it is considered desirable. In addition, we have more British people to holiday within the British Isles. identified a programme of other works which can also be Against all this we must acknowledge that the news from brought forward if need be. These are small-scale the areas from which we attract our tourists is grim and, employment relief schemes in the public sector which could whilst we will fight for our share of the available market, provide short-term employment for worthwhile purposes. it would probably be unrealistic to expect too much of a turn They tend to envisage the employment of unskilled workers around to our fortunes in 1993. or clerical workers, the two most numerous catagories of Looking to the need to focus attention on upgrading and unemployed who may not benefit from the additional work improving Douglas, Mr. President, we have the Douglas we are putting out to private firms in the construction 2000 initiative which is being lead by the Department of industry. Local Government and the Environment but to which all Looking at the wider economic position of Government's Government departments are committed. The dereliction in role in promoting economic development we have stated in Douglas is a problem, but it should also be made into an the Policy Report that a Central Economic Strategy Unit opportunity. If we can provide a sufficient vision and a is being established. I expect to be in a position very shortly framework and make it easier for development to happen, to announce the membership and remit of this unit, but in if we can prime the pump, if need be, and create a sufficient general terms it will comprise senior officers of Government, sense of civic pride, there is no reason why over the next led by a member of Tynwald, and the function of the unit few years we should not see a new Douglas which people will be to provide advice to myself and to the Council of want to live in, to work in, to visit and to enjoy. Ministers on matters of economic strategy. The steady increase in unemployment that we have seen This year we have included in the Policy Report a chapter over the last two years is one of the most pressing issues we on external relations, and there are two reasons for this: face. It is higher than at any time since 1987 but it must be firstly, the year has been a significant one in terms of seen against the very greatly increased number of people in international developments which have a bearing on the work. Set against the increase in employment the rate of Island; and secondly because such a chapter gives us the unemployment is still 4.7 per cent. That is a very respectable opportunity to re-state our position in relation to the rate by comparison with the United Kingdom and other European Community. This re-stating is desirable to avoid European countries. We are also anticipating that any uncertainty or misunderstanding. This year in theory unemployment will fall in the medium term as economic sees the completion of the 1992 European Single Market. growth returns. It is at present, however, too high and we In fact there will be some slippage, as we all know, into 1993 must aim to get back to the full employment rate of and beyond. Also, the implementation of the single market something like 3 per cent. Unemployment is not only a waste programme has been phased over several years and this has of valuable resources; it is debilitating, it is demoralising and insured that the impact has been gradual. Although some it is a sourse of social hardship. It offends against all the fears were expressed about 1992 and what it might mean objectives we have set for ourselves and the vision we have for the Island, in fact there has been little perceptible impact. for the Island. It has reached the point where we need to What 1992 has brought, however, is agreement in principle take specific measures to stem that growth. to create the European Economic Area from the 1st January The principal policy aim is to promote secure economic 1993, and that agreement will mean the Island will effectively development. Government policies, therefore, pointed secure free trading goods with the seven EFTA countries as specifically in a direction which will create good quality well as with the Community. employment, maintain good quality employment and bear However, 1992 is likely to be best remembered for the down on the numbers who are unemployed. There are Maastricht Treaty. We have already reported to Tynwald measures to safeguard local employment and jobs: the on that treaty and, if it is to be ratified by the UK, we will Control of Employment Act with its work permits; the work have to put before Tynwald a specific recommendation which is given to local firms when it comes to allocating regarding the inclusion of this Island in that ratification. As Government contracts and indeed the volume of capital regards our relations with Europe, we have confirmed that schemes being proposed and undertaken which will maintain Protocol 3, which defines our relationship with the a high level of work in the construction industry. But over Community, remains our best option and we have confirmed and above these on-going policy features we are directing that our stance and strategy is to maintain the position of some specific measures at the growing problem of the offshore Europe. That means maintaining and defending unemployed. We have recently announced some new the present status and ensuring that we do not adopt initiatives on training and these will provide additional European Community measures unnecessarily and create the training and rehabilitation based places prior to March of impression that our links with Europe are closer than they this next year. These include training and building work, are. Those who negotiate the Protocol 3 arrangements some keyboard skills, information technology, and service and 20 years ago did the Island a great service. We must, Mr. retail trades. Not only does the creation of training places President, ensure we do not undermine or squander that attack unemployment numbers but, much more importantly, inheritance. it raises skill levels and improves the employability of our Within the chapter on external relations we have people. confirmed that we will be bringing before Tynwald a In addition, we are bringing forward a range of minor proposal to restore the individual right of petition to the capital schemes which are not in our existing estimates and Court of Human Rights. There is now no impediment to which will require additional money votes. There are several restoring the right of petition and it is time for our people resolutions on this month's Tynwald Agenda which have to regain their rights in this respect. been tabled for this purpose. They will provide work for We have also included the chapter on the territorial sea, small and medium-sized firms in the construction and related because again this year has seen some significant industries, they will safeguard existing jobs and encourage developments. Securing the extention was, of course, an these firms to recruit, and there are further such minor important constitutional and legal development. It is also capital schemes which can be brought forward over the next beginning to yield an economic return. Members will know

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced T32 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 about the Mercury cable which was laid across the Island limitation on our freedom is outweighed by the benefits that and through our territorial sea and the proposed gas pipeline derive from the agreement as a whole, and that is the balance to be laid from Scotland to southern Ireland, again through that we have to weigh up. It was only in July of this year our territorial waters. Licence fees for these developments that Tynwald received a report on VAT harmonisation that are expected to more than recoup the original cost paid in had been prepared by the Treasury. That report discussed purchasing the mineral rights below the territorial sea. abrogation and showed clearly that if we abrogated there Potentially of greater longer-term significance is the would be an immediate loss of revenue to the Isle of Man possibility of there being hydrocarbon deposits in the Government of nearly three million pounds a year. extended area. We have no firm evidence of such deposits, Abrogation would increase administrative requirements here but interest has now been shown by oil companies in areas on the Island with the need to inspect and control goods and immediately adjacent to Manx waters and we are taking steps passengers arriving from the UK. A need for 28 additional to see whether there is any interest in exploration within our customs officers was identified plus additional capital area. The Island is not well blessed with mineral resources expenditure on facilities at the Sea Terminal and at and if there are exploitable oil or gas deposits within the Ronaldsway. Greater concern is the erection of a custom's territorial sea last year's agreement will have proved to have barrier by the UK against the Isle of Man in the wake of been of great significance. When the agreement was reached abrogation. Our manufacturing industry have said quite last year, Mr. President, we were not able to secure the rights explicitly that such a barrier would be an administrative and to any coal that might be in the extended area. This was a financial burden and a significant disincentive to them. because of the uncooperative attitude adopted attitude The voice of our manufacturing industry is too important adopted by British Coal at that time. The forthcoming to be ignored. For their peace of mind if for no other reason, denationalisation of the coal industry and the tranfer of we must confirm that we will do nothing which will create ownership of coal may provide a one-off opportunity for a trading barrier between ourselves and the United Kingdom. us to secure the rights to any coal that is in our territorial In addition, of course, abrogation does not necessarily mean area and we are ready to take advantage of that opportunity reduced taxes. We still need the revenue to maintain public should it arise. (Interruptions) A few people over here are services. If we listen carefully to people in the business looking for jobs without considering the problems on the community who argue for abrogation, they are not actually other side. arguing that we sever the customs link with the UK. What Part 2 of the report looks at Government's plans and they are in fact seeking is lower VAT, a reduction in programmes over the next three to five years. So far as taxation. What needs to be understood is that abrogation revenue account, income and expenditure is concerned, we does not mean lower taxes; it may well mean higher taxes. are of course constrained by the slow rate of increase in our Our approach is to tackle head-on the possibility of receipts as a consequence of the slowing of growth. flexibility in indirect taxation. It is to secure that flexibility Therefore we have indicated to departments that they must within the existing agreement that we are presently not expect new money beyond what is necessary to service negotiating with the United Kingdom. Some flexibility within the new capital projects that are coming to fruition. They the structure which preserves our free and uninhibited trade must operate within the targets that we have set for them of goods with the UK and Europe must be the best solution and secure whatever improvements in service they can from for us. We do not believe that abrogation gives us that savings and efficiencies. We have also said to them that we position. may yet ask them to reduce their expenditure below the As far as our capital program is concerned, we are provisional targets. We hope that it will be possible to avoid proceeding boldly with that as is planned. In the longer term this but we have to be prepared to give such instructions if and if our revenue position does not improve, the capital it becomes necessary. program may have to be phased further, but we do expect As far as our income is concerned, we have no plans for our income position to improve and growth to resume. When increasing taxation. I say that because low taxation remains it does we shall need the infrastructure and investment that the corner-stone of the Island's attractiveness and the central is now underway in order to continue to live with a modest part of our political and economic strategy. Members will standard of service. In the meantime we need to sustain a see that our present forecast for the next three years suggest substantial flow of Government work to keep the that our expenditure will exceed our income by an increasing construction industry in employment. I do not need to margin. These are our present best estimates but I would remind members that it was the rapid development of our not want members to read too much into any individual economy against the background of an infrastructure that figure. Clearly we will not continue to run an annual deficit was failing that caused many of the problems in the middle and steps will be taken as necessary to bring income and 1980s. I want to avoid that position returning again if at expenditure into balance. Like everyone else, we do have all possible. It is, in fact, an explicit part of our economic to live within our means. policy to use Government capital investment in a We have, within the section on Government's receipts, countercyclical way. We will therefore be at odds with our confirmed that we still see the 1979 Customs and Excise declared policy to cut back on capital investment at a time Agreement as being in the Island's best interests and that when private sector investment is limited. we have no proposals to abrogate that agreement. It is The capital program continues to be built around a perhaps worth stressing our stance on this as the question number of major schemes: the Health Service Estates of abrogation has been raised. Obviously the agreement can Strategy, the Sewage Disposal Strategy, the Courthouse and cause discomfort from time to time, as we are bound to Registry and, of course, refuge disposal. There are then a follow UK decisions on indirect taxation. Increasingly on range of small to medium-sized schemes across a broad range VAT those decisions are having to be made to conform with of services-housing, education, transport, infrastructure and European Community policy. The agreement limits our so on - which gives our total programme. It is accepted that freedom to determine our own indirect taxation policy, but we have never been able to deliver in full in any one year any international agreement limits your freedom of action; the capital programme as planned. There are a number of I think that is self-evident. The question is whether that factors which cause this, but the greatest contributing factor

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T33

is over-optimism by departments, and this year will be no Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my exception. Again this year the prime cause of capital remarks. underspending will be the revue of the Health Service Estates Strategy, and that issue will be considered as a separate item Mr. Cringle: Mr. President, I rise to support the later in the Agenda, and one of the consequences of the resolution on the Agenda Paper and I think probably it will review that has taken place is that expenditure will be be true to say that everybody will do just that. The Policy delayed. When delays such as this is occur for entirely Report 1992 Tynwald - receives the Policy Report and legitimate reasons it is doubly important that other schemes approves the report as a statement on policy and endorses which we are able to pursue and which are often in part in as a general strategy the provisional programmes of substitution get the backing of Tynwald, and I do hope that legislation revenue capital expenditure and other initiatives hon. members will approve the various proposals which are contained therein, and I think we all will, and I do so to be found on this Agenda Paper. because, to be quite honest, I believe that it is a good I will not dwell on the chapter in the report on personnel document in so far as it is an historical record. It is a save to confirm our determination to keep a tight control document which tells us where we are at and I think that on personnel numbers. Next year there will be little scope is very important, and I thank sincerely the Chief Minister for any increase in staff numbers. The actual limits which and the Cabinet for bringing forward a document which does we will impose for 1993/94 will be determined as part of just that, because I think possibly at this time in the life of the Budget process. the Isle of Man when we are approaching, as the Chief The last chapter in part 2 of the report contains the Minister said, the year 2000, it is possibly right that we legislative programme. It is a varied programme which will should take stock of just where we are. update significant parts of the statute book and introduce But, Mr. President when listening to the Chief Minister new legislation in a number of areas. No doubt the Death I did begin to wonder, are we listening or are we attending Penalty Abolition Bill will claim the headlines, but in reality a wake rather than attending a policy statement from a that will not be as significant in practical terms to some of Government which believes in itself, has some fire in its belly the other items. and is prepared to go forward with some initiative? I was Mr. President, it is difficult in the confines of one address a little bit disappointed, in fact, when I read the document to cover all that is in our policy report but, by way of resume, originally right at the outset, that whilst I accept it is very let me emphasize just four points. We remain committed necessary that we have the record of where we are at, we to policy planning, to efficiency and value for money and also really need to have some vision of where we are going, for customer service. The economy has slowed down but and the Chief Minister again is absolutely 100 per cent. right, is still growing. We are committed absolutely to restoring and I looked down on those children on the platform at the the higher rate of growth and we are investing time and Villa on Sunday night and exactly the same, and I know that effort and money in pursuit of that goal across all the main that is the future of the Isle of Man and I know that it is sectors of the economy, and we remain optomistic that the our future and I know that we need to care. But were we goal will be achieved. Thirdly, in the mean time and whilst really listening to a Government which was really going to present difficulties continue we will be keeping a tight rein provide that future, or were we listening to a jolly good on revenue expenditure and on personnel numbers. Also we housekeeping exercise which says 'Steady as you go at all are taking a number of particular initiatives aimed at costs and do not step over the border in case'? In fact, the minimising unemployment. And fourthly, we propose to document and the brief to us this afternoon has told us many pursue a business as usual policy in relation to capital reasons why we should not do anything but it has not given spending and to legislation. That is in the long-term interests us a single reason why we should do something and I cannot of our Island. help it, Mr. President, it is in my make-up and I know that I am a person that likes to see something getting done, and So the central message of this year's policy statement is if that means that we have a go with something, well then, that we propose to chart a steady course. We acknowledge I will have a go; it might come off, it might not. But there the difficulties that have been caused by the slowdown in are times when you really should be prepared to have a go, growth, difficulties not just for Government but for the and I think that we are rapidly approaching that time. We whole of the Island's society. These difficulties are not such have appended ourselves and we are very closely and that we need panic measures or violent changes in any economically tied to the UK. Whether it be through customs, direction. Our general aims and objectives still seem to be through low taxation policies or whatever, we are tied right for the Island. We will need to trim our immediate inexplicably and we know it. Each and every one of us knows ambitions. But, Mr. President, let me say that our vision that and, my word, they have a few problems! The Chief of a prosperous and caring society is as clear today as it was Minister this afternoon says that 1992 may very well be when our first policy document was written. We seek an remembered in history for the Maastricht Treaty. I am not island without discrimination, an island with social justice too sure that in fact the Maastricht Treaty will be the thing and an island with opportunities, and the importance of an which 1992 will be brought into remembrance in the UK for. island with opportunities was identified to me on Sunday I think they have a major problem right there now in the evening, when I attended a presentation of Noyes Fludde UK which is more than likely going to be what will have at the Villa Marina and there were over 500 energetic and an effect in 1992. Energy, and the energy crisis which they enthusiastic young people involved there, and I looked down face in the UK, is of paramount importance, and it is of on them and thought, 'That is our responsibility, our paramount importance to the Isle of Man if the Isle of Man responsibility to provide opportunities for all those young is to develop in the future, and the Chief Minister this people in 6, 7 or 8 years time' - a grave responsibility, but afternoon has relied solely, in effect, on the finance sector I believe if we all work together, Mr. President, hon. for bringing in the future of the Isle of Man. members, then we can achieve for them a good future. He has unashamedly said that we rely on the finance sector, and frankly we do, and I acknowledge that as well. Members: Hear, hear. Mr. Chief Minister. without any doubt, because we are now • Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced T34 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 in that position that we rely on them. Reliance on them does As far as tourism goes I am bitterly disappointed with the not mean to say that you have to at all stages bow backwards tourist industry and the way our tourist industry has from them, and I think that is where we might just be declined, and I am sure that the hon. members for Douglas showing a little bit of fear today, and I would say again - must be even more disappointed than I am, and I am and I am just picking up the Chief Minister's words, I am disappointed on a number of accounts, because I was not just picking straight up - he comments that it is a solid convinced, and have been for a long time, that our tourist backbone of the policy of our Government for low taxation industry is dependent on being event-led. I have said that - said that again, quite unashamedly. Whether it be direct, on numerous occasions and previously, when here, I fought which he did not mention, but he did mention considerably a battle in this hon. Court to bring forward a Year of Sport the relationship on indirect taxation, so the question is raised in 1985. It took two years of battling here before, in fact, there of low taxation at all costs. I am not too sure, Mr. we eventually got 1985 to a successful conclusion. In 1990, President, that in fact the maintenance of a low taxation not as a member of Tynwald, I had a meeting with the system at all costs to the Isle of Man is the one which is going Tourist Department and suggested to the Tourist to carry us successfully through the year 2000 and beyond, Department that 1992 could be designated a Year of the and if it does mean, as far as I am concerned, that we have Arts. I wanted the Tourist Department to pick up 1992 and to look at our taxation structure, well then, I for one this have a go. As chairman of the Music Festival, I knew that afternoon am telling the Chief Minister that if necessary I there there was something which was celebrating 100 years. would be prepared to consider that - I do not particularly There are many things - Mananan Arts, art shows, jazz want to, but I am prepared to consider some element of groups, all sorts of things which you could have said, 'Okay, interventionism in that system if the Chief Minister so wants. let's go for it and have a special year of the arts'. I am His comment was that the finance sector is there, we must delighted that in fact there was an element of support given look after it. The ones which cause us the hardship as far but no enthusiasm for 1992 to develop, and I know that not as the policy document was concerned were the basic only was any impetus coming from myself to the Tourist industries: manufacture, agriculture and tourism. I can say Department but I know that there are others from appended to the Chief Minister that I find it uncomfortable - and this to the Tourist Department who were pleading the same 41 is really as an aside - that at the present time our cause. So I look then at 1993, and I think to myself, 'The manufacturing industry, our industry board, is led by two Year of the Railways' - fine, I did not know at that time members of the Legislative Council and only one member that 1993 was going to be a Year of Railways - fine, because from the House of Keys, and I think that is wrong, so I will it is again bringing impetus, and I find it rather interesting just get that in as an aside, but that is just purely as an aside. that appended to, for example, the Year of the Railways (Laughter and interruption) The manufacturing industry on is a Jazz Festival - it could have been in a Year of Arts. Those the Isle of Man is of immense importance now and in fact sort of things are very necessary and it takes enthusiasm and let us be honest in any policy looking forward and you have to get out there and fight your corner. acknowledge that it is going to come under immense pressure So disappointment as far as tourism goes, but again I have again as a result of what is happening in the UK today, right to come back to how I started this afternoon, Mr. President. now. If - and it looks more like when rather than if - a It is a document which we are discussing which is labelled number of these pits in the UK do get closed there is going a policy document. It is an excellent housekeeping document; to be massive unemployment in certain areas, and what are there can be no question about that, and as a reference book they going to do? They are going to go out to seek to bring will be of immense importance to anybody on the Floor of into those areas manufacturing industry, so our this House. But what I was looking for and what I failed manufacturing industry, we must acknowledge, is going to really to find were very many opportunities which were out come under increasing competition. Does that mean that we there for us to grasp, and I was looking for a lead from stand back now? I would say to the Chief Minister and his Government to get out and grasp some opportunities, to Cabinet of Ministers: 'Get in there now and get fighting to come forward to us and say, 'Well, okay, we know we have bring more industry to the Isle of Man.' I would like to see got hard times, we know that the UK are going to go through the Isle of Man flooded out with small units, and if that hard times but this is what we are going to do to protect means that we create the whole Isle of Man a freeport I do the future into 2000 and beyond.' Mr. President, I am not care. But let us get out there and bring something in. supporting, as I said, the policy statement, I am supporting Let us say to ourselves, as far as manufacturing is concerned, the item on the Agenda Paper, but please - to our Cabinet this we can do, and I want some enthusiasm again instilled - have a look at some opportunities and not the reasons why into the Industry Department to get out there to fight to we cannot do things. bring something to the Isle of Man, and if this means that we have to go further afield than the UK looking for industry Mr. Barton: Mr. President, it is very difficult to follow to come in, well then, I am quite prepared to say 'Get out that, but one thing I would like to say, Mr. President, is there and do it'. that I think two weeks ago we had a briefing session with If we look at agriculture - and I acknowledge that my the Chief Minister and up to that time, when I first got the other colleague, Mr Corrin, as Minister of Agriculture, is document, I did not find it a very presentable and readable in fact getting the messages across to the agricultural document but after that meeting, when we were able to community rather well, but I will equally say, as far as the sweep away quite a lot of the detail and try to identify where agricultural industry is concerned, it has long had something we are going from, I think what one should come away - of an albatross which is known as the Marketing Act, which and I think that the member for Rushen has just said that is sometimes regarded as a sacred cow, but it was written we have got to be thinking positive and be positive and look in the days when horse power was of importance in the on the wealth-producing areas. I think that we have got to agricultural industry and it genuinely needs to be taken off remember there are more people in employment in the Isle the shelf and had a look at, and I noticed in the legislative of Man now than five years ago - that is thinking positive programme its not there. That is something, because - more people in employment, and if we stimulate the wealth- marketing again is of all importance to agriculture. producing areas then I think we will reduce the present

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T35 current high unemployment figure. say 'A Central Economic Strategic Unit is being established The Chief Minister's recent action, which I fully endorse, to provide advice to the Council of Ministers. So here we I think will assist the Minister for Tourism and the Minister have an essential body, the creation of which I applaud, for Industry in stimulating two wealth-producing areas. which is responsible to the Chief Minister amongst the Every coastal area in the British Isles has not been down plethora of other responsibilities that he has got and indeed this year: Blackpool, Llandudno - they are fighting back and to the Council of Ministers, and it is my firm belief that a I think that the Blackpool figures are up this year, but I think senior politician should be given overall responsibility for there is a positive attitude now appearing, certainly within economic development and that it must and it should be the tourist sector, and I think this will aim to raise tourism taken away from the responsibility of the Treasury. The from the base level which we are at present, and in fact, if Treasury at the present time under the 1985 Act has a specific you talk to some people there is a bullish attitude in relation responsibility for the economy as well as the multifarious to next year. I was a non-Tynwald member when the member activities of controlling Government revenues and for Rushen was talking about the Year of Sport; it was very expenditure and the plethora of other activities with which exciting and identifying these things - and next year we have it is involved, and I believe that there is nothing more got the Year of Sport and let us be thinking ahead for these important to the development of the Health Service, the future years, because these joint ventures and Government Social Services, the housing of this Island, to the life and and the private sector, I think, should be welcomed and they standard of living of the people than proper economic should be well supported, and I think, with the additional, planning led from the front, and I would urge the Chief I understand, improved boat services next year, this is a good Minister to give a commitment to the creation of one or more starting point to get going. I know that none of these details economic ministers who are given a specific responsibility have been confirmed but it does sound very promising. and are accountable to Tynwald through the Council of I think it is also interesting to look at page 72 of the report. Ministers, thus restoring a balance within the Council which I have never seen it in print before, but it is good that the I believe has got a little bit out of joint in that you have more Tourist Department is saying, 'Visitors are willing to pay ministers primarily responsible for Government expenditure more for a better product'. Now, that is thinking positive. than for the raising of revenue or the economy of this Island. Visitors are willing to pay more for a better product, and I believe that is the core message that should come out of we have got an improving product now appearing on the this debate. Island. Douglas 2000, we have heard about, is imaginative Now, apart from that issue, I want to raise one or two and with effort this could be reality. The bottom line is that other issues which I would call matters of omission and the producers of wealth must be at the forefront for support which I believe need to be addressed, but they are in and for our effort. The Treasury, industry, tourism and to comparative terms of much lesser importance than the one some degree our agriculture - if they are not successful we that I have just sought to address. Now, I have talked about, will not be able to support the policies of the rest of this earlier this morning, Mr. President, the need to review document. Many people in the Island, surprisingly, are Government activities and I thank you for the reply that you confident. Let us not dispel that confidence but let us use gave to that question, and I would also take the opportunity it. of thanking the Treasury Minister for the positive reply that What does worry me in today's introductory by the Chief he gave to my plea for a review of the need to retain Minister - and I did raise this at the meeting two or three Government assets, but I would still take issue with my weeks ago - was the rather unclear statement about this friend and ex-colleague, the member for Castletown, the Central Economic Strategy Unit. I do trust, in his summing Minister for Local Government. He and I, I think, will agree up, he will be reassuring us that he will soon be appointing that we will not agree and I think that is the position that a third member in the Treasury which is, I think he agreed, we have both recognised for some time. We have a different long overdue and I trust that this, the additional member philosophy on the underlying issue involved on which neither in the enlarged Treasury, one of them, will chair this unit, of us will agree to be moved from our existing positions. because if not I fear that the wrong message will be going I am convinced that I am right and that the needs for housing out but I will be supporting this document. in terms of the public sector should be determined by Government and by policies emanating from Government The Speaker: Mr. President, I would like to open my rather than by the individual wishes as expressed by remarks by carrying on from the remarks of the member individual tenants. I have no doubt that I am right in that for the Leglislative Council, Mr. Barton in terms of the issue regard. of economic development and its relative importance. I have Having mentioned that, I would like to turn to a 10-year felt for a very long time that the emphasis within the Council old document which I believe incorporates within it a fund of Ministers, and indeed within Government generally, has of common sense. It is a Policy Planning Programme which been in controlling and developing expenditure as distinct I understand, although it is undated, was introduced in about from the economy and the revenue of this Island. I do not 1882/81. I stand corrected because in looking through it I want to over-emphasise this point but I would support the cannot find a date. remarks made by Mr. Barton that the remarks made by the Chief Minister and indeed paragraph 5 on the summary at Members: Nineteen ninety one! the front of this policy document which I would like to read, needs to be reinforced. This, I believe, is essential to the The Speaker: Sorry, I do apologise. (Laughter and future development of this Island. The paragraph, Mr. interruptions) I do apologise, Mr. President, of course 1981. President reads as follows: 'Government reaffirms Even I cannot remember that far back! But there are some emphatically its commitment to economic growth and principles enshrined within this document which I believe Government programmes and schemes which have as their are of fundamental importance to the creation of good aim the promotion of growth or the creation of the policy planning and I would like an assurance from the Chief infrastructure necessary to service growth will be given a Minister that the principles which are enshrined within this particular priority.' I applaud all of that and it goes on to document are still being adhered to by Government as I

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced T36 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 believe that they are fundamental to the proper creation of of the finance sector I believe that the time-share legislation forward policies for the future of this Island. which is envisaged for 1994/95 - I think that is the right year Now, although you may find this a little bit unusual, I - should be brought forward. I think it should be given a would like to congratulate the Treasury, and I mean this higher priority in time-scale than that which is given in the most sincerely. They have produced in the last month or two document itself. It is of importance to the good government the annual accounts of the Isle of Man Government for the and indeed the image of this Island in the finance sector. year ended 31st March 1992, and I want to congratulate them Secondly I would make the same remark with regard to any on three counts: first of all that they have been produced pending trust legislation to which I think the Chief Minister earlier than ever before - they are dated 30th June, which also referred in his opening remarks. Now, these two areas is in Manx terms almost a miracle, but I would applaud their of activity are, I believe, essential in terms of the future early creation and I would urge that every effort be made proper development and indeed control of this amorphous in the future to even bring forward the date yet again. body which is termed the finance sector, and I do believe Secondly, the form of the accounts - and this is perhaps more that these two issues in terms of economic development and fundamental - has been revised very substantially. They are in terms of the good image of the Island need to be now readable and intelligible and therefore, if you accept addressed. Now, it is the very nature of things, Mr. what I have just said, they are much more readily President, that each member of this hon. Court, as he gets understandable and information can be adduced from them up to talk about the policy document, will tend to be critical which previously was, to say the least, difficult to obtain, but that does not mean that you will not receive my support so I would congratulate the Treasury on that. - far from it; you will receive my support, but I would ask Nevertheless, being a politician you would not expect me you to take into account and hopefully respond in a very to have anything but one or two minor criticisms. I would positive fashion to the issues that I have sought to ask you urge the Treasury once again to consider the issue of accrual to address. Thank you. accounting as being in the best interests of the Isle of Man and that we should seek to follow the example given to us Members: Hear, hear. by New Zealand on this issue. I am quite convinced that to show what we have actually done in monetary terms rather Mr. Quine: Mr. President, I am conscious that economic than what we have spent is far more beneficial to the matters will, of course, be debated on another item, sir, and understandability and for the proper reading of any financial for that reason I will contain my contribution to one figures. I would also like the statement of balances, which particular facet of the economic scene, so that will reduce has again been simplified and is in far better form than ever it to 12 pages. (Laughter) it used to be, to be reconsidered with a view to at least Mr. President, the Chief Minister in this year's report has contemplation being given to the idea of assets owned by expressed the view that the year ahead could be a repeat of Government which are deemed to have a value, and there the pattern of 1991/92, which saw growth in national income are many assets owned by Government which have no value, of 1 per cent., or could signal the beginning of the next and that is necessarily the position. Any assets which are period of expansion; that is the Chief Minister's prognosis. deemed to have an on-going value to the community, to be And that confidence, I would suggest, is not borne out on valued on a current use basis periodically, so that the Isle the information contained in this report. I do agree with his of Man residents, the people of the Isle of Man, can at the comment, however, that one way or another it would be an end of the day be enabled to determine whether that which important year. I certainly agree with that but perhaps not they owe equates to or is greater than that which is owned for the same reasons. Now, the Chief Minister concedes that by the community - in other words, a balance sheet of assets our economic well-being is interwoven to a very large extent and liabilities. We have got one half of the document and with that of the United Kingdom and I think that for that I would like to suggest that efforts be made in that regard. reason, although it has been touched upon, it would be Having said that, I would also like to applaud the Treasury prudent for us to recognise the United Kingdom's economic with the active help that is being obtained, I believe, from plight at this point in time and the prospects for the future. major Government departments on the use of better In my view the United Kingdom is destined to make hay management accounting techniques. This is happening over slowly for a number of reasons. Having shot themselves in the years. It is vital for the proper management of our both feet and knees and narrowly missed the head recently, undertakings. It is the job of politicians to create policy; I think their economic woes are very considerable and they it is the job of our senior executives to ensure that that policy are destined to increase. I do not believe for one moment is implemented and they cannot do that unless they are given they are on the up, and that is something that we must take the proper tools with which to do the job, and the vital tool serious cognizance of. I am therefore unable to take on is proper management accounting techniques and I am sure board the view expressed in paragraph 3.7 of this report that that, no matter what else may have to be done in cutting - and I quote from the report: 'Just a few weeks ago it would back on expenditure, this particular area should not be cut have been no exaggeration to say that the United Kingdom back on. economy stood on a precipice, but recent events and Now, on the issue of legislation, there are two or three international currency markets and sterlings withdrawal pages at the back of the Policy Report which detail the draft from the Exchange Rate Mechanism should have the effect legislative programme, and I would like to make two of avoiding what could have been a severe recession'. I think comments on this. I am first of all very grateful that we have that that comment is singularly inappropriate. It could be a legislative programme in some detail and I would applaud in fact that the situation has grown worse in recent weeks, the Council of Ministers for that, but, like everyone else, not better. I suppose that if we all were asked to put this programme Mr. President, it is perhaps somewhat problematic in order we would come up with 32 different programmes; whether the fact or of devaluation and the floating of the well, I am going to have my penny's worth in terms of pound is a plus or a minus, and the Chancellor in the UK changes that I would like to see take place, and they are very over the next few years or so will need to be both a juggler modest, really, but first of all for the proper development and a contortionist; I think that is fairly apparent. For the

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T37 moment I think he is preoccupied with trying to produce marketing the better. Provisional identification of small an economic policy, and we here must, because of that, have capital projects and employment relief schemes to ease additional problems to contend with; we must have unemployment - fine, that is great; I would trust most of additional problems put before us because of that situation. those will be geared more towards revenue generation, Be it as it may, it is my belief that the quotation which I though, not to the simple expenditure of the Government gave to you from the Chief Minister's preface to the report funds. I would trust that he will have a priority towards those is unduly complacent and in fact he should have taken on schemes which offer some means for generating funds. The board, and I would still recommend that he takes on board, creation of an Industry Consultative Committee to increase that not only are we faced with a situation that we may contacts with industrialists - I would have expected that to maintain the 1991 rate of economic growth, not only is there have been in place all along; I do not see that as a new some prospect that it may become better but there is even initiative. The creation of an Isle of Man Tourist Board - greater probability that matters will grow worse, and that an institution with responsibility, an institution which I is something that he does not appear to have taken on board would suggest, as presently constituted, is one that has in this report. responsibility without authority. I believe that what we have I may, Mr. President, not have access to highly paid got at the moment represents a hesitant step and in truth economists and accountants but certainly I have plenty of we should have taken a much larger step - and I have made exposure to the business world and this is a view which they this point to the minister many times, I know - and that is are putting abroad, and honestly and sincerely believe that that we should have gone for a corporate body and let them we have much more difficult times ahead of us. If we do, get on with it. Mr. President, hang on to 1991/92 growth levels it will, I Now those, Mr. President are the matters that I have been would suggest, not be assisted through events in the UK; able to pull out of this report which I would call new it is going to depend on confidence and initiatives generated initiatives. They are the matters which we are expected to locally. We should not be looking to the UK and say that - which we are, I suppose, invited to - look towards as being we will ride back on the strength of some revival in the UK. sufficient to generate confidence in our present situation. That is not in prospect, with due respect. You see, it is all very well to speak in generalities of the need So let us look at the so-called economic indicators for the to attract new investment, to pay greater attention to past three years and if you wish, those that are ahead of legislative framework, to improve the general business us. Business traffic is down over the three-year period by environment, to provide better resourced and targeted 26.5 per cent. and clearly still slipping. Unemployment marketing, to diversify the economy, to control and direct figures have more than doubled in three years. New company public expenditure, but what new policies and strategies have registrations down by 13.7 per cent., and there is one the administration to offer in our present serious situation? important statistic which I cannot find in the report but it I am suggesting to you that I have, as fairly as I can, is a very important statistic, and that is that companies struck extracted those from this report and that is what I can find. off by court order or voluntary liquidation are now in the Those are the matters of substance that I can find in this order of one company per day - one company a day being report. struck off by order of the court or by voluntary liquidation Perhaps it would have been helpful also, Mr. President, - and is approaching another two companies per day which if this report had reflected on one or two of the policies are being removed for other reasons. Some of those may which were introduced in the last Budget and gave us an be because of their economic problems but they have update on those policies to see if they are working. What motivated their own removal from the companies register. impact has the reduction of capital duty, from a maximum Now, we surely must take note of that situation and I would of £50,000 to £5,000 had on the registration of new suggest that against this backcloth it is unrealistic to project companies? Certainly, given the present trend in the increases in national income over the period 1993/94 to registration of new companies, the answer must be no 1995/96 of the percentages given in this report. Certainly apparent effect, but perhaps the Minister for the Treasury those percentages do not sit comfortably with the projected has some more detailed information and he can tell us standstill in Government's estimated receipts for those three whether that policy is working or not. After all, some years, so the point I am still belabouring and I feel has to considerable time has now passed. And rather, Mr. be belaboured is that we are not out of our economic President, than congratulate a struggling industrial sector difficulties. If anything we are still very much embedded in about their robust approach in the face of external recession, economic difficulties and they are likely to be with us for which of course is only part of the story, should Government a considerable time, and if we are going to break even, never not be addressing the two major constraints which our mind advance, it is going to be on the strength of confidence industrialists face? That is, of course, energy and generated here and initiatives generated here. transportation costs, and I am not talking about ScotPower, So with that in view, Mr. President, I have gone through that is an entirely different issue; I am not talking about that. this report looking for these new initiatives and, quite The basic issues, the basic problems of energy and frankly, they are few and far between. The establishment transportation costs, because I feel that these matters in the of a Central Economic Strategy Unit and in the longer term long term are more important to the health of the industrial the possible creation of the Department of Economic sector than the current UK recession, and again I would ask Development - most welcome, but both of those the Minister for the Treasury: going back to the last Budget, developments were advocated some four years ago; they has the rebate of 10 per cent. on the employers' national should have been in place now, they should have been insurance contributions, another new policy that was bedded down now, and in fact some years ago a document brought in at the last Budget at a cost of £2 million to the was passed to the Chief Minister along with a number of National Insurance Fund - and that is a questionable action other proposals and this was one of those proposals. So in itself - but has that, accepting that, helped the employment welcome, but it is perhaps too little too late. The creation situation or has it simply enhanced company profits, as some of a financial marketing group to formulate an in-depth forecast? Perhaps the Minister for the Treasury at some strategy - very welcome, fine, that is great, the more point in this debate can answer those two specific points for

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced T38 TYNWALD COURT. TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

us. But important as it is, Mr. President - and I accept that It is all very well, of course, to recognise the adverse the most important issue before us is the economic situation impact of the virtual monopoly of our sea and air services at the moment - there are two further matters on which I as this report does. It is all very well to recognise that feel I must comment. Over the last five years or so, the situation and to make the point that the consequential high education system has been subjected to some fundamental fares have made the Island non-competitive - that is fine, and wide-reaching changes emanating in the main from the but what is in this Policy Report to deal with that situation? United Kingdom and the changes that have taken place Nothing. there. To mention but two, the examination system has been Conversely, of course, the agricultural scene is changing changed and the National Curriculum introduced. Some of and that is in for quite a dramatic variation in its structure these changes are subject to further revision - it sounds because of the amendments to the common agricultural ridiculous but that is the situation. They had been revising policy, and I am pleased to see that there are moves afoot some of these matters before the proposals had been fully to restructure, if that is the right word, the support implemented, but that is something that is outwith our gift framework for agriculture. At least that has been taken on to change anyway. We have to follow and I must say, 'Full board, it is not spelled out in this report, I am aware of that, marks to our teachers and parents and children' for bearing but I do know from the agricultural industry that there have up so well to what changes have taken place; they have been been some meaningful discussions on that and I am pleased quite fundamental and quite large. But against this to see that, but I would ask just to add two points there. backdrop, can the Minister for Education explain the First of all I would ask the minister to make sure - it is only rationale behind the changes which she seeks to impose a small matter but is a matter which irritates the farming which can but add to this upheaval? The teaching community no end - that Knockaloe do not continue to associations have been concerned for some time by, as we compete with the private sector. There are still certain have heard this morning, increased violence towards them elements of activities at Knockaloe Farm which in effect by certain pupils and have called on the department - and represent competition with the farmers themselves, and that I use their words, 'for protection, support and advice'. The is something of an irritation to say the least, and very department has responded by setting up a working party to importantly, if we are about to go through some quite look into the problem. I suppose that is a standard response. substantial changes in the structure of support for the Now while this study is progressing, the minister has set in industry, it is vital at this juncture that we give to the motion a review on the use of, as she terms it, corporal industry, that we put before the industry, a vision of where punishment - I would be quite frank and say the use of the that industry is going to be in five years' time. I speak to cane - in secondary schools. Now, to me it seems for to set farmers regularly and what they are saying is 'Well, changes in motion a review of the use of corporal punishment in come about peacemeal, there is a change on this, there is schools against a backdrop of the very serious concern which a change on that, but how are we supposed to look ahead? our teaching associations have about the breakdown of How are we supposed to take a longer-term view of how discipline to a certain extent in our schools and the show we should restructure operations?' What they are looking of violence towards our teaching staff; that to me makes for, minister is - I know it is difficult - five years hence, how no sense whatsoever. Either consciously or unconsciously do you see the agricultural industry here on the Island? And she seems to be determined to undermine what little perhaps now offers the best chance to do something like that authority our teachers have over disorderly pupils, and of because we are going to have to make changes consequential course in any event, when she has completed this exercise upon this change in the support schemes that are being and she has got the weorking party report on how to deal enforced, are being placed upon the industry. These changes with disorderly pupils - and I have got my idea on how to will have to be made because of the amendments to the deal with them - what is going to happen is we will have Common Agricultural Policy and because of the GATT another demand for further resources, more staff, so they negotiations. So I hope that the minister will take those on can be abused. The whole idea of setting in motion an board. examination into the use of corporal punishment in schools So, Mr. President, my concern with the economic content against a backdrop of concern by the teaching staff about of this report is really on several grounds. We are facing lack of discipline in schools makes no sense to me a serious situation economically. I would suggest a situation whatsoever. I can only assume that she has lost her way as which has been underplayed in this report, and that is a Minister for Education. matter which really should be of concern to us. Complacency does not help. If we have problems we must recognise those Mrs. Hannan: You never expected me to find it anyway, problems. And secondly, the United Kingdom economy, I Edgar. believe, certainly has not peaked; it certainly has not broken the bottom yet. They have far worse situations to confront Mr. Quine: You never had it! them than what is presently with them and, because of that, Then there is the issue of the school year holidays, as it the local initiatives are all-important. I ask members to look is called. As if there was not enough turmoil, we then have at this report against that backdrop and ask yourselves this matter of the school year holidays! I accept that the whether the initiatives that are identified in this report match present minister did not start the ball rolling but she most that situation. Are you satisfied? Perhaps I have missed certainly should have kicked it into touch. What case is there some of these initiatives perhaps you can identify them. All for a change in the school holiday arrangements? If it right, fine. All I ask you is to look at this report and say, amounts to no more than what the director has promulgated, `Right, we have got these initiatives and we are satisfied that then there is no case of any substance as we have seen that they match the situation, they match the economic problems already; we have that to hand. Who wants to change the which are ahead of us.' It is my assessment that they do not. arrangements? Certain officials in the Education It is my assessment that we need more and I will come on Department and some secondary school staff. It is my belief to that in the other part of the debate later on when we get and certainly from the correspondence that I have received, to item 35. that the vast majority of teachers and parents do not want

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T39 a change and amidst the present unavoidable changes to the to long-term economic vision for the Island? I have asked education system, we can do without further self-inflicted this before three or four times and I am sure that he injuries. recognises the words. Well, he ought to because the words If I may now turn to the matter of illicit drugs, a major are not mine, the words are those from Peat Marwick evil, eroding both the health of the abuser and the well-being McLintock in their report on the economic implications of of the community. Such activity impacts heavily on the 1992. But I put the same question: what is his medium to general state of law and order and that is a fact. Official long-term economic vision for the Island? Where is the Chief sources on the Island now assert that the level of drug abuse Minister taking us in economic terms? Surely it is not too here equates with some areas in the UK, and according to much to ask whether we be politicians, industrialists or the Chief Constable it is increasing at an alarming rate. Well, members of the public. you would not think so from reading this report. This report Turning to the motion, Mr. President, we are asked to commands 10 lines on the subject. What is proposed? Well, receive the report which, of course, is a relatively harmless there is a professed intention at some point in time to action, to approve the report as a statement of policy and increase the drug squad from 4 to 10. Of course, that could endorse the general strategy. We are asked to treat the go on for year after year after year. That is just a professed report, I would suggest, like a box of Lego and make of intention. And legislation to permit intimate body searches it what we will. (Laughter and interruptions) To my mind, - that is what is in this report. Well, I submit, Mr. President, Mr. President, the prerequisites to approving such a that those steps are completely inadequate, sir. I am statement of policy are the following: that such policies are conscious of the fact that there is an item on the Agenda readily identifiable and with the fusion of commentary and that deals with this subject and again I wish to avoid policy this is not a matter that is easy to my mind - I cannot duplication, but suffice to say that I have some knowledge decipher one from the other in certain parts of this policy of this problem and, on behalf of my colleagues in the APG, statement; that the statement of policy is sufficiently I did research this matter some months ago and I put embracing and that no important matters have been omitted, forward a fairly lengthy paper with a list of and we have had previous speakers already identify several recommendations. I forwarded a copy of that paper to the important matters which are omitted; that the content of Minister for Home Affairs some months ago but I have not the policies which go to make up the statement are adequate been advised by the minister of what action, if any, he has and clearly they are not; and that the components of the taken on my suggestions. Indeed, I have not had a written statement of policy are acceptable, and that is a matter for response to that paper. I know there is a certain fear in this members. But to ask members to approve a policy statement hon. Court of guilt by association, (Laughter) but I did not when they are not readily identifiable, that is obviously the think it extended to ministerial level! (Laughter) I will make most difficult aspect of this. a copy of that paper available to all members of this hon. The third legacy of this motion is even more sweeping: Court before item 38 is called. Mr. President, I say without to endorse as a general strategy the provisional programmes fear of contradiction that no serious effort is being made of legislation. Of course, in the main the contents are by Government - and I exclude the police force - to deal with unknown. All we have got are a list of title headings; we this problem and I commend the fact that the member for do not know what this legislation embraces. Also to endorse Onchan, Mr. Waft, has put an item on the Agenda to, again, the revenue and capital expenditure and other unspecified air this matter. initiatives. I have identified some but I cannot identify any Let me conclude by returning to the economy and putting others. We have been asked to draw on the contents of the two final questions to the Chief Minister, if I may. How report and devise in our own minds, to our own does he propose to secure the viability of the finance sector specifications a general strategy and give it your blessing. in the face of increasing competition from within and It matters not to the Chief Minister that the general strategy without the European Community? We have heard a great which you conjure up does not match his, as long as you deal of generalisation today; I would like to put that approve it. particular question to him. With an increased level in VAT Clearly hon. members, this motion is one which I find in prospect, he will, of course, as he said, not countenance to be wholly impractical and I look forward with interest abrogation, albeit he has been tasked by Tynwald Court, to see how other hon. members come to terms with it. Thank as I understand it, to re-examine the matter of indirect you, Mr. President. taxation and it is my understanding that, from the July debate, he was required to look at this matter of indirect Dr. Mann: Mr. President, this present debate I find very taxation but irrespective of our wishes he appears to have worrying. It is almost as if the report and the Chief written it off. The answer to the problem does not lie in such Minister's introduction to the report have in some way given vacuous statements as and I quote: 'The Treasury is you all a shot of morphine - the soporific effect is quite monitoring the effectiveness of the Island's competitive incredible! I think we need to look very closely at the position'. That will not protect them at all. Something document that you are being asked to not only receive but positive needs to be done, but I would like him to tell me, to approve and endorse, because if in reality our response what is his administration going to do to secure the position, is so soporific, the people outside this Court are going to bearing in mind, whether we like it or not, that our needs worry just what is happening - in this Island are both led and fed by the finance sector? We may not like it but it is true, and if the contribution from Mr. Cannan: They are now! the finance sector over the last five years has gone up from 37 per cent. to 47 per cent. if you take the finance sector Dr. Mann: - because here we have a potentially very and the related sectorial activities. So you can not get away difficult and dangerous situation. from it. So what are you going to do to secure the future I am going to keep my remarks very tightly to the of that sector? There is nothing in this report to secure it. resolution and very tightly to one particular part of the (Interruption) document because there is a great danger, as ever body gets One further question: what is the Chief Minister's medium up, to pick little bits here and little bits there. I am not going

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced T40 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 to refer at all to the recommendations of the expenditure the input except that so often I have to admit that even of individual departments, mainly because I do not think ministers alone do not read their own statistics, otherwise there is any basic argument amongst us as to what sort of they would not be doing the things they are doing. services we would like to see - none at all, very little. In fact But if we come to Government systems - and here I have in subsequent resolutions and subsequent sections of our to refer to the long-term situation in which we find ourselves, Agenda we will fine - tune those, we will ultimately agree looking back over the life of this particular administration even if they are modified. What worries me is where the - the gross national product of the Isle of Man from 1987, money is coming from, and here we are confusing ourselves, of course, increased enormously in one year to 17 per cent. we are ignoring reality, and I think we have, all of us, got and in the following two years the growth rate dropped from to look at why this is happening. It is not a matter of 11 per cent. back to 11 per cent. again and 6 per cent. in personalities, it is not a matter of who is minister of who, 1989 and now 5 per cent. the last time, and possibly is now there is something happening in the structure of Government down to 1 per cent. Nobody that I know of ever asked the that has caused this situation, and there is a growing danger question, 'Why did this start sliding?' We did not need to that unless we face the issues, that situation will get worse ask the question because everybody was enjoying a very large and I would say that we have to look at two systems within Government income; nobody turned round and questioned Government that are at the moment having an undue it and, as a previous speaker has said, it is no good blaming influence on the situation. the recession in the United Kingdom alone for all our woes; The first one, I think, is a political one and I think we the job of a good businessman and a good Government is are now seeing, after five or six years of ministerial to survive and succeed whatever the circumstances. Why did government, that there may be a downside to this system the level of growth decrease here when it was increasing which is also influencing the financial circumstances of this elsewhere? Nobody has ever asked this question as far as Government and this Island. Secondly, that within the I know, nor has anybody answered it. I know in absolute financial section, or the Treasury department with its terms we were well ahead, for instance, of the growth rate associated groupings, there is also a deficiency of the system. in the United Kingdom, but during the years in which their Now, I do not mean that in any unkind way; it is something growth rate was rising, ours was falling, and these are that is happening, and if we look at these in order - because questions which we should ask. from the political point of view, we really have for the first Now we come to our immediate situation and it is in our time ever a continuation of a Government basically with two immediate situation that I find the greatest concern, and I new members, a continuation of Government from one five- think we all ought to find the greatest concern because once year period to another, something that has not happened again we do not have the economic indicators that we should up to now - first we must look at our relationship to the have. If somebody says to us, 'Are you in recession? in private sector, to the outside world outside this building and, technical terms we could not answer, because in technical as the Chief Minister has quite rightly said, our ultimate terms we should have quarterly indicators which should give prosperity depends on decisions made in the private sector. us an indication of whether growth is continuing, standing I do not think anybody who has any real knowledge would still or falling back. We do not have that. The only economic argue with that. Out there at this moment there is indicators we have are between 18 months and two years considerable doubt as to the ability of this Government to out of date, and while we are sitting here enjoying this move us forward. Now, that may be anecdotal; it may be. relative growth rate, while we are enjoying the income we The fact is we do not know and we should know, and are at the moment, that income is based on taxation which without insulting the Treasury Minister I would call upon has been set up 18 months to two years ago. Now, the gross you to listen to an extract from his speech, not because it national product is also about 18 months to two years out is a criticism of the Treasury Minister but it is a criticism of date as well, and therefore it is guesswork at the moment of the system. The Treasury Minister should never have been that our growth rate is probably not 5 per cent. but, as this in the position of being able to say this: 'I, unlike the UK document quite rightly says, is nearer 0.5 per cent. But at Chancellor, do not need to don thick gloves to go searching this moment, if we agree it, we are agreeing an increasing for the green shoots of economic growth' - this was six deficit. We are estimating a deficit going on over the next months ago - 'in the Isle of Man. The branches are still few years which has to be funded in some way. That deficit strong and showing real signs of life. It is evident, for and the provisional revenue is £2.7 million 1993/94 and example, in the upturn in arrivals and in advance holiday £5.95 million in 1994/95 and £9.57 million in 1995/96. Now, bookings, (Interruptions) in the relative buoyancy in our own that is based, as far as I can read into this document - and VAT receipts,' - which really is not surprising - they have somebody had better tell me otherwise - on the assumption just gone up by 2 1/2 per cent - 'in the recent take-up of office that this year we are in the region of 0.5 per cent., but accommodation,' - the only people taking up seem to be following this, by some miracle we are going to have a Government - 'in the development of our retailing centres growth of two per cent. Now - - in the wave of advanced enquiries concerning inward manufacturing investment at the Department of Industry'. Mr. Cannan: It is the fairies, Edgar. Now, if that was really true six months ago we should not be facing the situation we are in now. Somehow the Dr. Mann: Anyway, I ask anybody at this moment to economic indicators that guide this Government have got agree that next year, the next financial year, we will have to be improved because at the moment all we are relying two per cent. growth when at the moment we are barely on is what somebody told somebody the other day when they getting along at 0.5 per cent. Now, who decided that happened to be meeting. Now, if I relied on that alone, we suddenly we are going to get a two per cent. increase in are facing destitution with so many companies just breaking growth next year? There is not a shred of evidence that this even, so many companies thinking of folding up, any is going to happen, and I am sure that not a single one of number of shops that are about to close. If those anecdotal you will put money on betting that that will actually happen. comments are right, then this Government is progressing the Now, if these projections are based on the assumption that wrong way and at the moment statistically we have improved growth is going to be two per cent. next year and will then

Government Policy Report 1992 — Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T41

start rising and it does not happen, what is going to happen - and I mean that in money terms - or it is having to in some to the deficit then? This deficit is based on the fact that we way accommodate itself to the pressures of the decisions of are actually going to increase, and it clearly is not going to the Council of Ministers. Now, one or other of those things happen. But even if it did happen, the returns to Government must be right. My suspicion is that the Treasury is being in those years will be based on this year and that is not going forced to accommodate itself to the demands made upon to happen either. So you are being asked to mislead, and it. Maybe it has always been that way but it is certainly more I use those words because that must be the case; you are evident now that it was. misleading the people of the Isle of Man in the way in which this Government is going to function over the next few years. Mr. Cannan: Not in my time there. Now, it is all very well to bring out the proportions of gross national product that has been identified in the papers Members: Oh! Give over! (Laughter) that have been circulated to us in the last few weeks. Of course, the one thing the gross national product does not Dr. Mann: I did not plan that! say is whether any of those industries are profitable, and I think we all know that a fair proportion of those industries Mr. Kermode: That certainly woke them all up, Edgar, are not profitable and therefore they are not taxable. They anyway! (Laughter) are only taxable on the personal incomes of the people working therein, and I think I am right that something in Dr. Mann: So when it comes, Mr. President, to the region of two-thirds of tax yields are on actual company considering the resolution I am certain that we will need to income rather than on personal income. And if you then think very carefully before individuals agree to actually look at the statistics more closely, most of that is not derived endorse or approve the basic thoughts of this document. I from tourism, it is not derived from agriculture and fisheries, think possibly to receive it is a more accurate assessment it is not coming from public administration, a very large with the possibility that some of these figures can be proportion comes from the finance sector alone. And so are elucidated, and certainly I would welcome an explanation we going to continue, then, to suggest that the finance sector that would prove me wrong that the central assumption that is going to get us out of this mess? I can assure you, fellow our growth rate will increase by two per cent. next year, how members, that the finance sector at this moment is bound that was reached. I therefore, Mr. President, recommend to have reduced profits. Certainly the banking sector is that certainly the way I will vote - well, I do not recommend absolutely bound to reduce its tax revenues. So we have an any longer - the way I will vote is to actually receive rather accumulated problem. We are misrepresenting the situation, than approve of this document. maybe accidentally, but we are misrepresenting the situation, and the ability to get out of this situation is fairly limited. The President: Hon. members, the Court will now take Now, there are all kinds of ways in which we can stimulate a break. We will resume at five o'clock and the first speaker and bring in additional revenue. I will not prolong my I will call upon will be the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. contribution in this debate but I will certainly list them later Karran. on the Agenda. What I do say is that we should very seriously look at the systems within Government. We must work towards a better set of indicators to enable us to respond more definitely and more accurately to the situation. GOVERNMENT POLICY DEBATE 1992 — DEBATE If we do not, we are not leading the Manx community, we CONCLUDED — MOTION CARRIED are not leading the economy of the Isle of Man, we are following it, and unfortunately this is just the impression The President: We resume the debate, hon. members, that we are giving out there to the people who are making on item 7 on the Agenda Paper and I call upon the hon. the decisions. member for Onchan, Mr. Karran. Just since it is relevant to this debate, I come back to something that has worried me for a long time and I have Mr. Karran: Y Eaghtyrane, I am not afraid to associate expressed it on more than one occasion, and that is the way with any group or faction within this hon. Court and I will in which we are financing the capital programme. Because say that the AGP's paper on the drug problems has very of the very large size of our capital funds, year by year we many worthy points. It is nice to know that the AGP's policy are able, quite rightly, to use those funds for new projects. on education, which is the department that has had the But the size of that ability is now so great that it throws an greatest financial pressure on it of any department of undue burden on ordinary revenue expenditure, and while Government, and all their policy seems to be is to worry there is a standstill or decreasing revenue income I think we about caning. I admit with this debate today that I have had have very seriously got to look at the impact of this capital a geography lesson from the hon. member for Rushen. I programme upon revenue expenditure which then affects the always thought Foxdale was the back of the moon, not services that we provide for the public and for various Ballabeg! It is only because of the policies of the Council industries. In listing these things I am not trying just to of Ministers we have not seen the mess that is in the UK criticise; I am trying to be constructive. I think that it is very and I think we should give credit where credit is due as far necessary, if we go back again, to looking at the systems. as this is concerned, and I think that is the end of the That brings me finally to the political system. The political Christmas present for the Ard-shirveishagh. system which is now enshrined in the ministerial government, The Policy Report of 1992, the overview, is good. What for which I have always been firmly supportive, has changed concerns me with this document is, it does make some good the relationship between the Treasury and Government as policies but there are a number of flaws, and I shall try and a whole, in many ways quite rightly, that the Council of address a couple of those flaws. It is great to hear, as a Ministers is now able to direct the Treasury in its member who has put resolutions and questions down, that expenditure. But if I am right in my assessment, then the a residency Bill is to see the light of day, and I should be Treasury has either not had the ability to defend the Treasury grateful as far as this seeing the light of day is concerned. • Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T42 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY. 20th OCTOBER, 1992

I am still deeply concerned at what the contents of the Bill the advertising agents', and I have heard that so many times will be. Another concern that I have when we talk about before, and our problems are solved. residency and population is that we must get some policy It is nice to see that IRIS is the answer for the crude sewage on how many new houses we are going to build out there. problem of the Island, and if I had not had concerns before If we are not careful we are going to destroy the centre of I have now after listening to what was said this morning! our towns and we must have a policy over how many new With the increasing problems of not enough teachers for houses are going to be built on this Island. schools, and realistic policing levels for drug squads and We see fine words as far as the expansion of the economy other financial problems that we have, if we could afford is concerned and yet many flaws within these proposals. The the running costs we would be lucky without the capital costs energy policy of this Island is a joke with no overview, no on top. structure, no short, medium and long-term development We have to face the reality that there may be a long world programme. Looking for oil and gas without a strategy for recession and I think that what we must do is learn from the long-term development of energy and the suitable the mistakes of what has happened in the past, and I would requirements for the nation, which is needed for us to ever hope that we do not have a repeat of the early 1980s where achieve a large increase in the industrial bases on this Island, we where forced into a position where they were impotent even allowing for UK privatisation which has made the to be able to develop policies because the fact is that the Island not such an expensive commodity for energy, but the money had all been tied up in major capital schemes, and truth is we need an energy audit and we need a strategic I do not want to see a return of that situation. policy on this ground and even in the short term, an energy I believe that the policy as far as alleviating the minister. I am glad that my hon. friend from the Council unemployment situation is important. We should be warning agrees with me: The political reality is that because it is a the people now that if we want to solve the sewage discharge Pandora's box the body which would have to deal with this problem on this Island they might have to face a sewerage would have to face up to some political hot potatoes, but rate and we need to get a proper rate rebate scheme in place we have got to face up to these problems because those so that the less financially well off will not be affected under problems are growing hotter and hotter and they are going these proposals. I believe that should be done as an insurance to be even worse to have to handle. factor. I applaud the capital programme scheme but I think We hear many words on training when the truth is that that we have to be realistic about this particular major item apprentices are the first item on an expenditure list to be now. hit. I am glad to hear that the Council of Ministers is looking I know this debate will be long today and I hope that some at the contents of a Government tendering scheme which of my proposals on changing some of the policies, such as needs to be totally reviewed, and we should be changing it the present construction tendering policy and my so that we give Government contracts out to the builders Government captive insurance scheme, which is receiving who at least have a specific number of apprentices and full scrutiny from the Public Accounts Committee at the workers on the cards in order to try and get some control moment - I know that the Ard-shirveishagh will be big back on the black economy in this Island in the building enough to take them on board if they seem right, and I am industry. We have no enterprise allowance scheme, no happy to accept this report so long as it is not written in proposal to build new starter business units, but the Council stone, and we do have the flexibility from whichever section of Ministers will be looking for coal under the Irish Sea. of this hon. Court the ideas come from to include them to The fact is we have got no long-term policy as far as our minimise the suffering on this Island. energy is concerned, so why we are looking for coal when we have got no policy over energy in the first place is beyond May I just say on one of my other stuck record policies me. We see on page 5, Section 28, paragraph 5(18) 'Off- that I am keen on - my final words: I am disappointed that shore Europe remains the best strategy for the financial the Government has evaded the question of the long overdue services.' We all agree with this, and I know I must sound need for a race circuit on this Island and I hope the Ard- like a stuck record, but why can we not explore trying to shirveishagh will take on board the very worthy project that get organisations who would want to be in a position of off- this would be for a Government work scheme to alleviate shore Europe? It is about diversification. the unemployment. I find some of the input, like the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, saddening. Why can we Mr. Lowey: Mr. President, I do not know whether - I not tell the truth? The simple reality is we have over- think one of our previous speakers said that - the Court had production in this industry and without a legislative package been given morphine. I do not know what was put in the which is needed for the survival of this industry we are doing tea at teatime but it certainly made the member for it no service. We should be totally reviewing the Agricultural Onchan... it was a good antidote to the dose of morphine Marketing Act, creating an animal welfare legislation and that you had before! supporting an organic based industry if we want to see this It will come as no surprise to members to find that I will section of our economy having any future and to expand be supporting (Laughter) the book that is before you and instead of trying to compete on a totally disadvantaged basis so I would just like to get that off my chest early in the in an over-productive system at present, throwing new proceedings. But I would like to commend members to abattoirs at this industry and, to quote one member of the compare this policy document with the policy documents department: 'Well, at least we will be able to sell the lambs that have gone before. It is more detailed. It has taken note to the French when we get an abattoir.' Well, you tell that of your comments which you have said and commented on to the lorry drivers! It is a crazy policy and I feel the truth in previous years and it has tried to accommodate the needs to be hammered out because this sector of our legitimate points that have been made. It is a progressive economy is important and I think that we should be document, as the Chief Minister said at the opening of his addressing this problem. remarks. The theme in this document is keeping you in I have to say I found the input from the tourist problems touch. I think it is reasonable and fair and it should be of this report - 'it is nice to know that we have got rid of judged in that light.

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T43

Mr. Kermode: It has got some nice pictures! return for each employee over the coming years. The incentives that are being offered by Government to attract Mr. Lowey: Forgetting the nice pictures, can I just say, new industry - and remember the world outside - and this the one thing that has been lacking this afternoon, as far is where I come to my friend Mr. Cringle - and I welcome as I can see, for those who have opposed or are less than his enthusiastic endorsement of my appointment and I enamoured with the document is - let me say where we agree. recognise my friend - he was the gentleman who We are all agreed that the world is in recession and it is a recommended me for this top shelf, by the way; he difficult world in which business has to operate. We can all nominated me a few years back. However, I am quite aware agree on that. I just want to make a point. I want to say that my friend is not in a personal capacity attacking me; how grateful I am and how pleased I am that the private it is the number of members of the Legislative Council, and sector in all its forms out there has created and produced I appreciate the point that he made. Can I just say that the as well as it has in the circumstances for this Island. It is incentives that are offered to new industry... and his cry, not in spite of them that we have employment manageable; if I remember him right - and I must remember him right it is because of them and Government working together, and - was that he wanted some action. He cried out for some that is the point I want to stress - the two of us working action, he was impatient, he wanted something to be done together, not in isolation. And I want to counter the - no matter what it is, just something to be done. Well, if arguments that are being put forward that somehow he is looking for what I would call knee-jerk reactions and Government is working in isolation from the business jumping around trying to create something out of nothing, community out there. Never in the whole of my time in then he has certainly got the wrong man in me. What I can Government have there been closer working relationships. tell the hon. member is, in the week that I have been there, It is not perfect, but it is closer now that it has ever been, that already the department is looking and has got things and I can tell you from the Council of Ministers, the aim in motion for promotions to get inward investment in this is to get closer co-operation and closer working ties, and Island in industry from within the UK and well outside that can be illustrated with chapter and verse in virtually Europe as well as within Europe. They have already got every department of Government. plans, they have already got identified areas where Now, having said that, can I say my good friend from potentially we will invest. Those will be followed up Ayre said he was looking through the book for positive signs vigorously, not riskily but vigorously, and I am sure that to latch on to. He said it was full of - and I use the word is what he is after. But I do say that the incentives that are - generalities, not specifics. Well, can I say - and I have been on offer to would-be industrialists are second to none on appointed Minister of Industry - I have got to remember the Isle of Man, and we have not a standard rate but a variety what I am! - for just a week and I cannot take any credit of schemes that will meet the needs of most inward for anything in the book regarding industry or past investment, whether that is tax holidays, whether that is performances. But in that week, as you can imagine, I have investment in machinery, in training, rental of properties, been settling in, trying very hard to read, listen to the a whole range we can max and mitch... mix and match - advisers that advise the department, listening to my political I knew I would get that wrong! colleagues for what they have done, and can I tell you the last word that can be claimed about the Industry Department Mr. Kermode: You were right the first time! is complacency. They are not complacent and there is a stream of investments, and investigations and plans that will Mr. Lowey: I have only one further thing to say and that becoming to fruition in the forthcoming months, and I will will be on abrogation. I do not believe in a personal capacity be doing everything that I can to make them positive results. that... you know where I stand on abrogation and it has not altered at all, but I am equally convinced in my talks in the Now, can I just say, somebody, my hon. friend from short time that I have been in the ministry that the vast Ayre, said he was looking for positive signs. Well, could majority of industrialists on this Island are very, very I just say, if he looked on page 63 and looked at the grant apprehensive about abrogation and to introduce that spectre expenditure summary, the investment by existing industry at a time where they are fighting for markets seems to me in their businesses recently and this year, and there is a 40 an unnecessary hindrance. (Members: Hear, hear.) I make per cent. increase. Never has investment in existing industries no apologies for that and I believe that we are doing no been so high as it was in 1992 and I would suggest that that favours, and the solution that my hon. friend suggests - and is an indicator of confidence for today and, much more no doubt we will come to it later in the Agenda is that we important, for tomorrow. It is quite clear that industry today will go and talk to the industrialists and assuage their fears. has confidence in the Isle of Man as a place for investment Oh, that life was just that simple! But on abrogation, this and their growth per employee is higher, productivity is Policy Document is clear and the Court should send a clear higher and, while the numbers are slightly down, I would message out to the outside world. suggest that the investment in existing industry heralds a Can I just say that, on behalf of industry, I believe that good omen for tomorrow. Can I read the figures - not 'watch I have a first-class team. The training initiatives that I my lips' but read the figures? They tell a story. Now, as far announced at the weekend were already put in place, and as I am concerned, I believe that the main thrust of the the architect is in the House of Keys, and I have full Industry Department is to develop the Island's economy. confidence with his moves and I look forward to working It has achieved real growth at a steady rate over the years, very closely with Mr. Gilbey in the immediate future to and I would suggest to members what we are looking for expand on those initiatives that have been taken. is a steady growth, not the magical seven and eight per cent. I believe that the words that were used by Dr. Mann who which is unsustainable in a real world, but the steady growth was in his best Cassandra mood this afternoon - he really that has been achieved by the Industry Department over the was a Cassandra man. He said the Government was giving last few years, and I make no bones about it that that steady the impression to the outside world that we were giving the support by Government will continue, and I believe it will wrong impressions, we were giving the wrong vibes, we were be seen to be creating real jobs with real wages and a higher not giving incentives, we were not giving the lead. All I could • Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded Motion Carried T44 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 say to him, when I put on my notes, was that he was giving which clearly sets out what policy action we are going to the impression of doom and gloom (Members: Hear, take in the present circumstances to continue to move hear.), that there was no light at the end of the tunnel and towards achieving those aims. For example, in transport on it was all downhill. Well, I do not accept that. I believe that page 53, the 'Transport' policy is stated as, 'to provide and the private sector is performing remarkably well. They are promote a safe and efficient infrastructure for travel doing that with the assistance and encouragement of transport' and so on, and it goes on to say that the Government and that will continue, and this document spells department is actively developing an integrated transport out clearly that it will continue along those lines. policy. That last statement is the accurate one. In order to The world is difficult, there are no simple answers, it will achieve the aim - to provide and protect and so on, promote not be easy, and if anybody had listened to what the Chief - our policy is to develop an integrated transport system. Minister had said they would have recognised immediately That illustrates what I am trying to say. in his opening address to us in moving this resolution that So I return to the walled garden. I have no disagreement he was not offering an easy ride, that the road ahead was with the social policies but I do criticise - constructively, I difficult, but if we all work together we can achieve a lot hope - Government's approach in this Policy Report to for the Manx people, and again I want to stress those words economic policy and to the present situation and that of the of the Chief Minister: we should all be working together in near future. The words are fine, the language is articulate, this Court for the people of the Isle of Man. but what is missing is the conviction that this Government is committed to economic growth above all else and knows Mr. Groves: Mr. President, I was not expecting to where it is going. I believe that is missing from this report. follow Cassandra's Job's comforter quite so soon. For nothing else is possible without economic growth. (Laughter) I believe, in fact, that it is the duty of every one I make the point again that the document really sets out of us in this hon. Court to tell the truth as they see it. I am the aims of Government, whereas what the people of the sure you all do, and I believe that by telling the truth as we Island, the businesses of the Island want is a firm statement see it that does not mean that one is talking down, or doom of policy action, where we are, why are we there? What and gloom, or generally acting against the interests of the constraints, what external factors are there today that are Island. affecting us, what have we decided to do in the light of them? I commented to the Chief Minister some days ago when Our economic action policies in the present circumstances. we met that I thought the Policy Report as such was a great That is not a comment about how our private sector or improvement and definitely, as he has said in it, a businesses have performed in the past. He who puts his hand progression on those that have previously been submitted, to the plough and looks back ploughs a crooked furrow. and I think that is right. The so-named central policies of We must look forward, and I think that is missing from this Government set out in Section 1, Part 1 of the General report, for without doubt the current economic climate Review on the yellow pages, I am sure, have the support demands at the very least a review of the existing mechanisms of most of us, and so should the set of objectives that have that we are using to manage our economy. Why has it taken been formulated to each of those central policies indicated until today with Mr. Speaker's question, the first question in the report in paragraphs 1.1 to 1.8. As the report states, of the day relative to the sale of assets, potentially, of these are the framework for Government departments and Government to the private sector, for the Chief Minister to statutory boards alike, within which they work, the bricks acknowledge that this is going to be looked at? Or a similar and mortar of the walled garden within which all life of the answer given to my question about looking at the services Isle of Man should grow, social and economic. Government currently provides that might be contracted out As an ideology, as a statement of the political philosophy, to the private sector. I am in no doubt that those sorts of I support the central policies but that is all I think they are. actions of policy should be in this report. They are the basic framework only. My criticism would be A reduction of public expenditure must be addressed. I that, as with previous policy reports, it concentrates far too am certain that to entertain the likelihood of public much upon social policy rather than economic policy. That expenditure exceeding income is madness. I am not using is not to say that the Government has no economic policy violet-coloured language other than to demonstrate that that at all but it is so that its social policies are very well is economic madness. It cannot be right. Do we not formulated and clearly set out, and I do not think that that remember, do we need to be reminded about Charles is how economic policy comes across in this policy document Dickens and Mr. Micawber? The most telling phrase is in which is, after all, available in the fullest sense to every the policy document, to me, when it says that a continuing member of the public. It does not appear to come across series of years when actual expenditure exceeds actual as the number one priority. I make these points about revenue will not be entertained. To me, in the face of the political philosophy and principles that have led to the economic climate we are running into - some of us think formulation of these central policies, this framework, this we are not there already and I think we are - to entertain walled garden, because it is rather how Government and this at all that public expenditure will exceed income is folly, it hon. Court lead and help the businesses and the people of has to be, and I am reminded of the remarks of the hon. the Island to feed and nurture what is within that walled member for Garff, Dr. Mann, with regard to his concerns garden. as to the political position of the Treasury at present, and I think is the real issue that we face today and is the real very much look forward to the answer to that, the pressures issue for the people outside. It is essential not to confuse that Treasury may be under. policies with aims, and I think that we are. I think this Have we considered, given that the resources of the Island document sets out what it declares to be central policies and are finite, whether the public and private sectors should not we appear to give the impression that, having set those work together to invest in our future, to work on our capital policies out, that is it, but aims as they are are quite different projects relating to infrastructure? Why are we just assuming from policies which are what one should put into effect to that we will always find the money from the public purse? achieve the aims, and all the central policies and objectives I believe the partnership with private capital in the very vital set in here are merely aims, and there is very little in here and necessary capital schemes to improve our infrastructure,

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T45

which I support, that the use of such private capital know where we are going - 'If you do not like it, fine, but obviously will reduce the impact of those schemes in terms by golly we are going there and you can follow us because of capital expenditure on our budget. we are leading.' And the other 30 per cent. is to carry out I understand the Chief Minister's opening remarks about the right actions to support what you are saying. rapidly changing circumstances making it difficult for this I found the remarks of the hon. member for Garff, Dr. report to be all-embracing, and I can accept that, but I Mann, quite thought-provoking and what he said contained suggest, Mr. President, hon. members, that what I have a great deal of clear thinking (Mr. Cannan: Hear, hear.) mentioned so far, none of this would fall within those which I hope hon. members have taken to heart. changing circumstances that would mean they could not have been considered and contained within this Policy Report. Mr. Cannan: You are doing well, Terry! The Chief Minister has referred to the hostile environment our businesses face. He is right and we must face up to the Mr. Groves: I really do not believe that the Isle of Man fact that no matter what message we wish to promote here, and its people simply wish to be kept in touch at this time. the message from the United Kingdom Press and media Finally, I would say to the Chief Minister that whilst I available in the Island will be almost overpowering, which support the aims, the ideology, the political philosophy and is why I am critical that this report does not carry the the intent behind what is in this Policy Report in addition conviction of commitment to economic growth that I know to the remarks I have made, if by supporting the resolution the Chief Minister personally shares. I am talking of course on the Agenda Paper I am agreeing with the principle that about medium to long-term strategy and not the short-term public expenditure will exceed income, then I will be unable measures announced vis=a-vis small work schemes, minor to support the document, and I look forward to a response capital schemes and training initiatives, which I welcome. on that particular point which I consider elementary and The previous recession that this Island went through in important. 1980 to 1985 in reality was not driven forward in terms of us getting out of it by the then Government of the day's Mr. Corrin: Mr. President, the policy document that we policies. It happened because we had cheap housing, we had have before us now and indeed other years, clearly it is not office rents at £6 a square foot, we had a supply of labour a tablet of stone - it is a statement of views, intending to and the fax had just been introduced, and if anyone thinks provoke thought for others, give guidance, but that is about that it was primarily Government policy that drove us out as far as it goes in reality because no-one can control world of recession after those years, they are fooling themselves. events as such; they obviously affect the Island the same as Today we do not have any of those advantages over our they affect anywhere else. competitors, this time the task is much, much tougher, and But I immediately spring to one or two of the statements all of us as politicians in this hon. Court, and the of the last speaker, with respect. He said economic growth Government, must give the most positive, the most above all else. I cannot agree with that, economic growth determined, leadership, leadership which says to the above all else. That is what even lots of Conservatives in Department of Industry, have you considered a Manx BES the UK are saying right now: above all else. I cannot agree scheme, Business Enterprise Scheme? There is £9 billion on with that. deposit in the banks of the Isle of Man and if we assumed that only 1 per cent. of that was available as private capital, Mr. Groves: There is nothing else without that. that capital could be unlocked to become working capital for new businesses who would operate to a certain criterion, Mr. Corrin: But equally I can agree with another: perhaps new businesses who would employ a minimum of spending more than you earn is economic madness. I totally two or three people and who are going to be manufacturing. agree with it. So clearly it is between the two, that is where The private capital investors in those new companies would an acceptable course of action lies. receive tax relief. That is a way of unlocking private capital. Over the years when I have exercised the privilege of That is not in here. That, I think, is the sort of initiative expressing views I have always tried to give some I would have hoped to see in this report. Leadership which encouragement and certainly not sell our Island short and says, are we satisfied with the quality of our management I think it is important in this debate and right at this time within Government? If we do not ask the questions about when life is so difficult in the world that we should not be the quality of management, if we have poor management, preaching doom and gloom because in reality we can count that will lead to poor information and that will lead to the our blessings, many of them. wrong decisions. I happen to believe that we have obviously The Chief Minister, just one or two of the main headings some very good managers, but we have a great deal of people that he said, he spoke of stability, and that is true, we do in post in management who may well have been trained as have stability. He said that the policy was to continue long- administrators. Administration and management are two term investment, and that is good for stability, for different skills. Has the Government considered in the investment in itself and to give people encouragement. He current climate that it is necessary to match the same said he would be continuing policies from 1991, and that pressures that the private sector are under with regard to is good. At least he has some confidence that some of the pay? I am not saying what the decision should be, but has policies in 1991 are worth continuing, and that is good. We that been considered? In this sort of climate these sorts of could look at some Governments in the world and the things should be considered. policies of last week are chucked overboard. To me the actions of Government can, broadly speaking, But perhaps the best thing he did say is being realistic, be compartmentalised into two sections. Seventy per cent. and that is important, being realistic, realistic of what you of what we do is designed to give confidence to the people can do and what you cannot do, and a lot of that depends of the Isle of Man and the businesses who work here. Our on the external factors. We depend in the first instance on attitude to how we recognise the problems that we face, how the United Kingdom, and yet look at the people of the we are going to deal with the conditions that we are in, to United Kingdom, discussions on television and radio, at the give confidence that we know what we have to do, that we apparent drift and lack of direction that appear to have • Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T46 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 gripped the United Kingdom in the last couple of years we can do. especially. Forecasts not fulfilled, economic upturns just The fishing industry - I am presently looking at that and • round the corner, unemployment - look at the coal mining indeed I would invite any help from any colleagues who feel situation. It may well be true why they are doing it, but it that it is not their duty to participate in Government as it certainly has not been explained to the people, I am sure, is tradition on this Island. I am looking at the fishing and it may be not really the mines as such, it may be going industry - a very difficult situation, a diminishing resource, back to when the privatisation of the electricity supply poor prices for what is caught because it is over-subscribed industry took place and the situation at that time where the in terms of the market. You have this web of fishing rights, new companies had to buy British coal, and now that you have got the EEC imposed on top of that and it is a freedom has been relaxed and they are going elsewhere, and very difficult area, but somehow we have got to sort it out, the consequences of that could be what they are struggling but very little can be done locally because of our about now. responsibilities with traditional fishing partners around us. The EC situation, it is so important for us, for trading. The Forestry Department is making a useful contribution There is disunity within the EEC, some of the magic bubble to the life of the Island and certain commodities. of all going forward seems to have disappeared, national Agriculture - I am very heartened by the attitude of those interests are looming on the horizon, Maastricht and all that employed in agriculture. They are very conscious of their argument and upset, and then the world situation, and some responsibilities and if they are given the support there is no of our companies, they trade worldwide, and that is for the doubt that they will make a good job of what they are doing, good. But we have this unusual situation of seeing starvation there is no question whatsoever, and that is the hopeful sign. in one place and an abundance of food in another, the Reference has been made today to the 1934 Act. In respect European war situation there causing concern, the American of the Act I see no reason and indeed in the industry the election, a big economy there, and yet we see the basis of the Act, that is, a collective system, I do not think performance of those who are standing for the presidency anyone questions how they operate, indeed the farmers of the United States, and that does worry us. (A themselves are looking now at the relevance of it in terms Member: Hear, hear.) It may seem amusing, but when we of the numbers of elected representatives and so on and so wonder we are here conscious of the performance of our forth, they are looking at that and so are we. So they are Island and our future prosperty and obviously the influence thinking for their future and we are putting a lot of stress of the United States and you see the election debates, you on getting the best return in real terms, in other words the really do wonder, it does worry you where we are going in real return for selling a commodity, we are stressing that the future. and that is accepted. The support that comes from Government must be the second priority, but it is so Mr. Kermode: He must have Sky television! important that it is there, otherwise I am afraid it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to compete. Mr. Corrin: We must nevertheless put out a message of Our construction industry - the indications are that it is quiet confidence in our finance sector. Where would we be heading for a tough time, or indeed it is perhaps having a if we did not have a finance sector? For all the criticism that tough time right now, but in trying to protect the Manx it has taken, I think now - it was kind of new - it has settled construction industry - and I am serving on a committee down, it is settling down, a lot of the local people employed looking at that - it is not easy. Some ideas have been in the finance sector, they have gained and they are gaining suggested and no doubt we will be making our report in due experience in the industry, (Mr. Kermode: Hear, hear.) and course, but to put in place protectionism just like that is not that is all to the good. easy and equally there are certain activities where we on the Industry - the many and varied activities that take place Island do not have that expertise, we have to look elsewhere, on this Island are under the heading of industry and that and then if you try and control who works with that was evident when we held the opportunities exhibitions at company, you start interfering with a signed contract, then the Sea Terminal in 1988 and 1990 and over 50 companies, you are walking on very dangerous ground. So I would ask Isle of Man companies, exhibited what they were doing and colleagues not to underestimate the problem of when you all their varied activities, and of course you could multiply are looking, but nevertheless of course it is only right and that up because some of the associations were there proper it should be examined and indeed it is examined. representing a number of others and they were saying, not The Chief Minister referred to under-spending on our only to the general public who were invited in, but certainly capital schemes, and here again it is only right and proper, they were saying to the young people of this Island, 'This if a project gets behind so the expenditure does not take is what we are doing on the Island and if you want to perhaps place, it is only right and proper to revise the scheme, but gain future employment with us, these are the qualifications we must be very careful that we do not get two, three or that are required.', and I trust that the new Minister for four large projects all going at the one time and we find then, Industry, the hon. Mr. Lowey, will look at that. Recession and perhaps with the recession, as we all accept, that we get has nothing to do with that: you still have to motivate the contractually locked in and all our resources are going into young people, now is the time to get them trained, motivated a very narrow area, we must watch that; even if that means and look for the future. Hopefully we are not so pessimistic that some schemes dear to our heart, most desirable that that we are saying there is not a future. Of course not. So have been spoken of, discussed freely in the last five years, that must go on. because at that time it was perceived anyway that money Tourism - it is difficult, but quietly a lot of tourism still was available, we must really re-think as we go along, can goes on, that is the reality of the situation, quietly a lot still we afford that now, desirable as it is, or should now we goes on. A lot may not come and be counted through concede that perhaps that ideal is not going to be achieved Tourism Department channels, but nevertheless those who for perhaps five years, longer or whatever? We must watch slip in or come for other reasons, they participate in the event that very, very carefully and that brings us right back to what and so on and so forth. A very difficult area, very difficult, the hon. member for Ramsey said, that spending more than but nevertheless I am sure we must persevere and see what we earn is economic madness, because that is how we could Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T47

end up, in that state. Now, how we can get in that is very teenage drug and alcohol abuse. Despite successive moves easy and it has been mentioned about the emphasis on by different members of this Court to address the situation spending departments and not so much emphasis on earning. there is rising public concern over the steady increase. There is an attraction there because spending is something I acknowledge the fact that this problem transcends all you say to people, 'This is what we are doing.', they can Government departments but with 60 to 70 per cent. of all see it, they can nearly feel it, but on the earnings side it may cases referred to the Probation Department being alcohol- well be a company that you are supporting and for various related and 50 per cent. of the prison population there reasons private companies, you cannot even mention that because of alcohol-related offences the costs to the Island, you are giving them support. It may well be after a couple both economic and social, are obvious. In the Island's of years that you will get an invitation along to open it or schools it has been reported by the Isle of Man Alcohol something, and that is a very pleasurable event. So there Advisory Service that some children are drinking regularly is that political attraction, but we must be conscious of that at the age of 13 and by the age of 15 over 60 per cent. drink and we must not fall into that trap. regularly. We can no longer rely on volunteers to do the So all in all I think that we must be quietly confident, work that alcohol education requires. We must provide well- thankful too in many respects - it is clear that the recession paid, well-resourced adequate staff. Eighty-two per cent. of in the United Kingdom is something that has not been boys and 77 per cent. of girls in England and Wales have experienced and perhaps few of us in this Chamber will had their first alcoholic drink by the age of 13. It would take remember anything like it in the past, obviously only some too much of this Court's time to highlight all the aspects senior members will, but it is bearing on this Island, there of alcohol abuse, but I am sure members are well aware of is no doubt about it, and that, I am sure, is why certain the problem. activities like the construction industry is wondering why The increase in the divorce rate is resulting in more and there is such a severe pressure on them. Well, one reason more one-parent families having to cope with the pressures of course is because in the past, even though there has been of bringing up children alone, having to go out to work, recession in the UK, it has not been to this degree and those leaving children alone for longer periods of time without companies looking for work have not taken such an interest adequate parental control. Even within the two-parent in the Island, whether it is for supplying materials or family group some children are not receiving enough whatever. So we have to be conscious of this different guidance to avoid alcohol and drugs. situation. As a Government we have a direct responsibility to But all in all I think this policy document is a basis for legislate and control the possibility of any type of going forward and after that it really is up to all of us to exploitation, whether it be in the way of drugs, alcohol or demonstrate our commitment to working for the people and solvents, which would endanger the youth of this Island. I am sure if we do that, then that confidence will be returned I am delighted the police have recognised the need for an many times. Thank you, Mr. President. increase in the Drugs Squad, and the DHSS deal with the effects of the alcohol abuse on a daily basis. Mr. Waft: Mr. President, the problem I find with this I have no criticism of any of the departments of policy document, and I think most people are in exactly the Government who are trying to deal with this situation, but same situation, is that 90 per cent. of the facts and figures I feel that we should be taking a more proactive rather than that are in this policy document are absolutely correct, a reactive role in this area. I have asked in item 38 that a nobody can fault them, they are an historical review of what committee of three members be set up to examine the extent is going on in Government at this present time, and there of the problem here on the Island. But if the Home Affairs is very little in it, unfortunately, to find the policies and Minister can assure me that the committee is looking into extract the policies from the actual fact of the historical draft legislation on the Licensing Bill, if he will investigate review that it presents. It is a very good document, it is a the whole of the problem of alcohol abuse and report back comprehensive document, but you are very hard-pressed to within six months, there will be no need for the resolution. find out, well, what exactly is that department doing for the The same goes for the Misuse of Drugs Committee. I have future and what exactly are we as a Government going to no wish to cut across or duplicate the work of any other be doing for the future and how are we going to cope with committee. My main aim is to highlight the urgency of the the recession? It is a very big difficulty for us all to situation. Alcohol and drug abuse is rising and all possible comprehend given the situation as we are, as an island, action should be taken urgently by this Government to within the context of the European Community and the address the problem, and in view of the public concern I recession in the UK. So there is very, very little that we can would have expected more prominence given to the Policy do apart from manipulate as best we can in the situation Report. that we find ourselves in. Without going through each and every part of the report, Mr. Quirk the MLC's committee in 1987, of which the economists will give you a different idea as to the way hon. members Mr. Barton and Mr. Corrin, Mrs. Hannan forward tor the Isle of Man, but unfortunately economists and Mr. Karran were part, there were 55 cases of drug abuse vary in the way that they see the facts and they would portray in 1987. In 1991 there were 114 cases of drug abuse. By them entirely different from one economist to another, in September 1992 we already have 169 cases. We have a fact one perhaps would tell you to build a hospital in one number waiting for General Gaol and in the lower courts place and the next year another would tell you it would be they are piling up. So I would stress that if the Minister of better somewhere else. (Laughter) (Members: Hear, hear.) Home Affairs can give this his urgent consideration and give However, I would just like to extract one part of the me a definite report that he will give us his word that he document which does concern me and that is with regard will report back in six months, not with recommendations to a section on the Home Affairs. Whilst appreciating that that have been put forward in the past, but recommendations this policy document is only a snapshot of the work and the that are concrete and they will be seen by the public to be policies of each department, I would have thought that more done and they will be of further benefit to the Isle of Man. space would have been given to the problems associated with Thank you, Mr. President. • Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T48 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

The President: Hon. members, before calling the next of service which the public should be able to expect from speaker your guidance on time. Shall we have as our the DHPP. The performance charter is an integral part of objective the conclusion of this particular item on the our objective of improving the service provided by the Agenda Paper? (It was agreed.) And when we have department to the general public, such as response to concluded that, then that will be the end of business for this requests for work, speedier execution of the work, and value day. for money, and I would like to mention that during the next year we will be inviting local authorities to submit to us a Mr. Kermode: Mr. President, wouldn't it be better for list of the work and works that they would like to see done members to get an idea of how many members intend to in their area. We will then be able to cost it, return it to them, speak on this before you say that? Because we could end they can prioritise it and hopefully we will get it done within up here until midnight if everybody wishes to speak on that, the existing funds. and I would suggest that 7 o'clock would be time enough. Talking of productivity and efficiency leads me on to investment in infrastructure. There is one other very Members: No! fundamental way of increasing productivity and standards of service to the public and that is timely investment of Mr. Cretney: Go on your own then! resources in infrastructure. Primarily it is maintenance, refurbishment and, where necessary, it is renewal. For The President: I did not conclude it, I asked for a instance, if there had been timely investment in properties reaction, and, as I understand it, the reaction is favourable, we would not have had to spend so much of these resources so shall we carry on, hon. members, and I call on the hon. in patching up old assets which have to be replaced sooner member for Middle, Mr. North. rather than later. A similar situation applies to sewerage. We now have an opportunity to avoid wasting future Mr. Kermode: Well, I have got 12 pages just of my own. resources in a big way, by bypassing the many inefficient sewage works. This can be done by making use of the The President: The hon. member for Middle. proposed central treatment works. That sewage works must be installed for Douglas and Onchan in any case if it is Mr. North: Mr. President, I am pleased to have this accepted that untreated sewage should not be discharged into opportunity to comment on some of the activities. A lot has the sea. been said in previous debates about the DHPP and I do not Therefore, hon. members, I hope you will agree that it intend to dwell on what is history. What I would like to do is good management of resources, not a waste of resources, is expand on what my department is doing, and, as the hon. to invest in infrastructure at the right time and in the right member for Rushen, Mr. Cringle, said, what or where we way. To delay investment beyond a certain point always are at. At least I think that is what you said. I would like leads to inefficient use of resources, that is, it wastes money. to say what we are intending to do with the funds that my But also it includes, and I should mention that I am not just department is given. There are many facets of a department talking about the infrastructure cared for by the DHPP, but that could be introduced but I will deal basically with four. it also includes hospitals, schools, housing and so on. Central to our overall operation is the new client/contractor Careful investment in the transport infrastructure of roads, concept which has been established in the DHPP and for the airport and the harbours can be particularly beneficial the first time in Government. The concept endeavours to because not only does it directly contribute to the economy identify the true cost of providing services and, as hon. through contribution construction work but it also gives members know, we have client teams in the harbours, the long-term improvements in transportation, which leads to airports, highways, drainage and properties and a contract a spin-off of savings and increased efficiencies for team in the works division. The main thrust of the commercial operations as well as for the economy generally. client/contractor concept is therefore to separate the It is therefore the DHPP and the infrastructures it creates, function of deciding what work should be done from particularly those in relation to transport, that provide for actually doing the work and it provides for a framework the development and expansion of our industry and of management in such a way as to ensure the work is done commerce and the economy as a whole. efficiently and achieving, hopefully, value for money. This Now I should like to mention very briefly, if I dare, new form of management, hon. members, will eventually transport and in particular our intention, which the hon. lead to the position where our works division and their member for Ramsey dwelt on, to produce an integrated managers have to examine their every practice and procedure transport policy. I am well aware that Sir Humphrey and to ascertain whether they are purchasing the best price evidently once remarked that many political careers had been and appropriate quality and to carefully manage the use of wrecked on trying to produce an integrated transport policy. materials and manpower for every job. This hopefully will It is not just a matter of making sure that the planes, ferries, lead to the introduction of changes in working practices and trains and buses run on time and to the right places on their thus provide better value for money. right schedules and that they all co-ordinate with each other. I should like to invite any hon. members who would like It is also a matter of making sure that we do our best to to see at first-hand what we are doing and where we are going encourage efficient transport and discourage inefficient to please contact me or any members of the department and transport arrangements, unless of course the main purpose we will arrange to show you what the staff of the DHPP of a particular form of transport, such as the steam railway, regard as an exciting challenge. What we are intending is its very existence is as a tourist attraction. No integrated more work done within the available resources of money transport policy would have any depth of meaning unless and personnel. it attempted to ensure that the principles of commerce are Although the client/contractor concept is the main thrust consistently applied. Should or should not there be towards obtaining increased productivity a special aid to competition on sea services, air services or bus services? increase productivity, is the adoption of a performance Should there be regulation of those services in the overriding charter whereby the department will be producing standards interest of the nation? We need a consistent approach and

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried TYNVI'ALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T49 any variations in that approach should be planned properly. to speak so far in this debate, because he has clarified at Within the DHPP we are setting up a form of client team least a little bit of that part of this document dealing in the to be headed by the hon. member for Onchan, Mr. Waft, tourism section of what we are going to do about the to initiate an integrated transport policy by which all situation, which is not new, in relation to our sea and air Government agencies which have an involvement in carriers. This situation is not new certainly in my 16 years transport will have a focus for discussion of their transport here as it was the first issue I addressed on arriving here and interests and policies. it has been addressed on many occasions. But what he did Finally, I should like to mention the extension of the not indicate to me and I would like the Chief Minister, if territorial sea from three miles to 12 miles. Its acquisition he would be so courteous in his reply, to indicate to us what on 2nd September 1991 by the Manx Government has has changed certainly since I was a minister when we brought I think what could be referred to as an awesome addressed the problem of the sea transport, particularly in additional responsibility upon Government. It is not just that the options open to this administration in what we can do we have more waters to patrol for fishery protection, we about it, because the options were very clearly made out to have effectively increased the area of the Island by over 1,000 the Government that I was a member of and the policy that square miles. Over 80 per cent., hon. members, of the area came from that Government which I was a member of was of the Isle of Man is now under water. (Laughter and quite clear and we were told, and I can quote the words from interruptions) I am definitely getting that sinking feeling. the debate, 'That is the best we can do in the circumstances The management of this marine environment is a prevailing at this time.', and that policy was to hire one of particularly complex task but it has its good fortune in that the linkspans or the site for a linkspan, if we could not get it looks as though it will be a lucrative acquisition. Such an a linkspan and put our own on the end of it, to ensure two important asset as the sea and seabed cannot be left to look things. That was that the Isle of Man, in the case of hardship after itself if the marine environment is to be protected, and or strike or lock-out, we would have the ability at least to if any commercial worth which it might yield is not to be put a ship, a modern ship, on a ro-ro berth. Well, that policy lost or inadvertently not realised, we must watch it very went out the window because we renewed the lease to the carefully. Therefore the department has established an present incumbent and we have not got that facility and we Interdepartmental Territorial Sea Committee to co-ordinate probably will not have it because of the lease that is still the statutory and management roles and activities of the drawn up on both linkspans and the sites they occupy. So whole of Government in relation to the sea and seabed in that policy cannot be implemented quickly. And I would our territorial sea. The committee has put a large amount like the Chief Minister to be courteous enough, following of data about the territorial sea onto computerised charts his minister dealing with this problem, which he said he is through a geographical information system, and this has going to address, on what new options are open to us, been an enormous task. because the other options that I saw clearly at the time and The management of the territorial sea has turned out to he saw clearly was we could do what the Channel Islands be a very exciting project and it is being managed and did some five years ago, that was fund an alternative administered in a thoroughly professional and a detailed shipping line which they did with the Channel Ferries, or way. It can be confidently anticipated that the wealth of the we could actually get to the situation where we bought a ship, Island and its economy will benefit over the years from the which was out of the question at the time and is probably acquisition of this asset and its management. still out of the question, or the next alternative to that was I am sorry to have gone on. (Members: Hear, hear.) to go out there and pay somebody else to service the Isle of Man; that is in to do with shipping. There are very few Mr. Delaney: Dive in! options new that I can see but I would be very grateful and I am sure the people I represent would be grateful to find Mr. North: But I would like to reiterate and I was trying out what the policy is that the hon. minister is going to come to illustrate where we are and why we are there - back to us with and what options he is going to have to work with, because I cannot see anything new. A Member: At sea! (Laughter) Now, someone might throw at me, ah, a wave-piercing craft, you know, the one we talked about virtually 10 months Mr. North: and that we are active, and certainly the hon. ago from the Minister for Tourism when it was announced member for Ramsey, Mr. Groves, was referring to a plough by him and his colleagues that this was what they were in a field. All I can say is, as you well know, you will never pursuing. It still is not there and maybe that is going to be plough a field by turning it over in your mind. (Laughter) the policy. But when you come to that policy, be warned. Thank you. After eight months of research I can tell you one of the things, the illusions you will create is that bringing on a wave- The President: The hon. member for Michael. piercing vessel, if you can get one, will automatically increase the number of tourists, to start with, to this Island. That Mr. Cannan: May I give way to the member for East is not true and is a wrongful illusion to create for the people Douglas, Mr. President. of this Island, because to justify another wave-piercing craft you have to produce on top of those tourists which have Members: Oh! (Laughter) just been reduced by a figure this season, May to September, by 18,000 people, you have to produce 30,000 new customers A Member: A pecking order! if you just want that wave-piercing vessel to operate from May to September, just to justify it, unless you want to lose The President: I am quite happy to accept the hon. one of the two ships presently running to the Isle of Man member. by the Steam Packet. Now, how do you come to that decision and how do you come to that conclusion? It is very Mr. Delaney: Mr. President, I am grateful to the last simple, simple mathematics - if you take the number of speaker, the minister, who has been one of the few ministers people who are carried at present by the Steam Packet

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T50 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Company against all the sailings which are all listed, carried Because the problem he identifies in this document, of the in this year's sailing programme, if you do that you will find company, is not new, it did not just happen for 1992, it is the Steam Packet have used the same reasoning for getting the established policy, and probably rightly so in the interests rid of the Mona's Queen two years ago and can very well of their shareholders. But we have known about this all my use the same reason: there is no need for their second vessel. time here and we have always ignored it, we have always said we do not want to interfere. But now, from what I read So be warned. Anyone who tells you that the solution to here, we are going to interfere. But we have not only left this problem is down that road, without having a proper it until the horse has gone from the stable, we have waited constructive increase in real tourists and passengers, is until the barn burnt down. Now we are going to go in. Fine, fooling not only the people outside, which is politics you at least, if nothing else, I will see, before I go to the sun, can sometimes get away with, not only members of Tynwald, that the situation is that they have finally addressed the real but we will be fooling you, Chief Minister, and certainly problem of an island community and that is the ability to the people in your Cabinet. It will not be the solution to get on and off into that community. Fine. But the one thing the problem. you cannot do, if you take the figures of the losses, and they Now, I mentioned in that opening remark the numbers are identified in the same document by the Chief Minister, we lost this season because I am fascinated and I was grateful the difficulties for 1993, you cannot wait until the minister to Dr. Mann, the Chairman of the Alternative Policy Group, comes back, you cannot wait for another season, you cannot when he quoted what was said by the Treasury Minister only wait for another six months, because the marketing season six months ago, because unless you know where you are now for tourism starts in January and you have got to have in and accept where you are, no Government, no organisation, place your whole marketing programme with the new no business, no family in a house can plan where they are advertising agents, whoever you have, and you cannot leave going to be after they take certain steps, you have to know it because you are putting what is left of the industry, and where you are, and I can say, hon. members, and this is not I say industry, not hotels, and these hotels that are closing doom and gloom or Cassandra, which seems to be the word are not the trash that we originally used to talk about, they of the day if you tell the truth, the situation is so desperate are not the boarding houses. The hotels which have been that just saying that we here in this Court follow a policy, sold by the coroner are en suite hotels, financed in some cases as outlined two years ago by the 'Tourism and Reality' by the taxpayer on the scheme introduced by document, which has failed - and I will go into why it has Administrations - I am sorry he is not here - by Mr. Lowey, failed - and can be proved that it has failed, is suicidal even to say we were going up market. Well, now the up-market if you were not running a Government; if you were running establishments are going under. So listen, hon. members, a private business it would be suicidal. The figures, and it we cannot wait that long. It is not the trash. We are closing frightens me, the figures for this summer season, when they down now the vital organs of the industry, and the industry are produced, finalised, put the little dots there, you will is just not the hotels, the industry is everybody in this show that the real loss was not in January, February and community, and I wanted to just sound a warning here when March, not in those three months, as indicated in this I read this document and I listened to the minister when he document, through the business traveller and the Manx talked about railways and about the interconnection and the person travelling - the figures are your figures, the organising of the railways and the transport system, which Government figures - the figures were lost between May and sounds very logical. The fact of it is the hon. member September and that figure will show an 18,000 drop on 1991 who occupied a seat over there - I sat in the Gallery before which in itself, recognised by the Chief Minister, the I joined this Court - and unfortunately now he has left us, Government, in this document, was not a good year when he is deceased, the hon. member for Ayre lost his seat in we lost 15,000, of which 10,000 were lost between May and the House of Keys because he was forced through economic September. circumstances to have to close the northern section of the Now, I am not cribbing, I am not saying that it is all your Manx railway all those years ago. As resources came back fault, I am not saying that all the policies did not work. I we opened it up again, but do not forget this - of all the am telling you what the reality of the situation out there is. structure in the Isle of Man geared to tourism, all the Those 18,000 people, which frightens me still, of those organisations for the benefit of tourism - railways, Wildlife 18,000 we lost from a traditional market who only come here Park, horse trams, all these things - 70 per cent. of all those for tourism purposes, 99 per cent. of them we lost from the amenities are subsidised by the Manx taxpayer or the local Republic of Ireland, 3,000 sea passengers and 2,000 by air, authority. So what I am saying is if you do not accept that from Belfast we lost by sea 3,000, giving us a total, if you we are going to be so well off in the next two or three years, do the count, of nearly overall 40 per cent. of what was left would somebody please tell me when it comes to the cuts, of our market from that country. which have to come, and I have looked through two lots Now, hon. members, today you have heard about, and of them in here, will we be still saying that nobody is rightly so, from the hon. member from Ramsey, Mr. travelling on the trains and we are losing, nobody is Groves, that he cannot see why it is that we can get into a travelling on the horse trams, nobody is going to the Wildlife position where we are going to be expending moneys we have Park except a few locals, will we be saying that we are going not got or putting us possibly in debt to run the policies in to be cutting them? Because when you think of the losses this document, if you want to call them policies. But what in tourism, those 18,000 people who did not turn up from I am saying is can you, knowing what I have just said, May to September this year, it is 90 per cent. certain that knowing the truth of this vital industry, which in 1991 each one of them would have at least travelled the once on committed to the Government 7 per cent. of the revenue the railway, or visited the Laxey Wheel, or gone to the required to run this community, which if you take the Wildlife Park. The real loss of 18,000 people from May to calculation I have just given you reduces it to 5 'A per cent., September this year was not only in the fact they did not knowing that, can we just stand by and leave it to the hon. stay in hotels or they did not buy anything in the shops, on member, the minister, or to the Chief Minister to say, 'Fine, the Government figures from you, Mr. Treasury Minister, now after all these years we accept there is a problem.'? on the figures supplied, we lost just under £3 million in

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T51

revenues according to the statistics that your department has been thrown to us, a small lifeline but nevertheless a produced for me to what is the value of a tourist who stays lifeline, and I must thank the Attorney-General'S for more than two bed nights. So it did not just cost us £5 1/2 Department and the customs and excise people and an awful million to run the Tourism Department, it did not just cost lot of people in the last six months who have given me advice us the situation they did not turn up in the shops and keep on this. other people employed, it cost the actual exchequer, if you In January, as you have read now and you have heard look at the revenues lost through VAT et cetera, a huge and we have listened about, the customs barriers per se will amount of money. come down. Now, no great benefit to us travelling to Britain Now, I am saying that, and I am not going to row with because we have this agreement on duty-free and all the other the Minister for Tourism, I am not going to row with him, goods, but the Irish Republic, Eire, is a member state and I have had it, it is finished, the system is gone now except as the French are so keen and are taking the advantage of for there is light at the end of the tunnel for at least my the British tourist going back to Britain and carrying all this constituency, if not yours, hon. members. Through the stuff in and they are all geared up to do it, we ourselves in summer I wanted to know why it was that suddenly the other the Isle of Man have to be geared up for that small market sea competitors in the Irish Sea, Sealink and British Irish but nevertheless a market that is there in the same way that Ferries, why suddenly they had got to a situation where they the Irish carriers, Sealink and Irish Ferries, are geared up said, 'Right, it's going to be a bad season. What we're going ready for the summer. When you get to any Irish port - and to do' - and not only them, by the way, the Channel Island this is official after my enquiries in Ireland - there will not Ferries did the same thing - 'we're going to slash our prices be, apart from a token presence, a customs officer, there and make sure that when our ships sail, they're full.' It seems will not be in Ireland, stopping you automatically, a red and a drastic step, more than competition, a real policy. So when a green channel. Now, this is good news: at least they get you get down you find out why, for the simple reason being back those 8,000 customers we lost this summer from May they were getting ready for this next year, for 1993, they to September from Ireland. But we have got to do it and were putting into practice the policy they are going to have the only way we can do it is through the carriers. It is no this next year and the policy is, if the ship sails, fill it, even use the Steam Packet ships leaving Ireland at 2 o'clock in at £10 a head - which they were charging, Sealink, to go the afternoon, it is no use them leaving Douglas taking Manx across from Rosslare - because when you get that person people on day trips to Dublin, it is a pointless exercise in on the boat if you sell him £20 worth of duty-free at a 100 national politics and national economy. The ships have got per cent. mark-up, we take £10 off him, if he has a meal to leave Dublin dock which is right in the city centre. The on board the ship we take another £5 in profit. These are only ship now that goes to a city centre is the Steam Packet what they did, and what did we do in the Isle of Man, what vessel: it goes to the capital of Ireland. What are we doing? did we do? Exactly what the Chief Minister identified in the We have to get that ship leaving at 8 o'clock, at the latest document, exactly what he said, we said, 'Well, it doesn't 9 o'clock, in the morning, getting here for midday, get the matter, lads, if we lose 18,000 people, next year to keep the people ashore to spend their money and on the way to take £4 million profit' - a million less than he made the year in as much duty-free as they are legally entitled to take in. before, the £5 million - 'what we'll do is put the prices up The Steam Packet cannot be the losers because they are and we'll make up for the 18,000 we lost by putting the prices going to make twice or three times as much on the duty-free up.' - a policy of suicide because eventually they will get to sales, but what they have got to do is put the fee on, to get the poSition where they themselves will only justify one boat across that piece of water, to get the customer on board, and they will not be able to do the runs necessary, not only that the Irish people will pay. What will they pay? They will to keep us alive, but to keep their own business alive. I agree pay anything up to 20 punts; that is what the competitors with the Chief Minister in this document - great to do it, are charging. This summer it was amazing to watch hundreds but you cannot wait to do it for a year or two years or talk of hundreds of cars leaving Dublin, actually travelling past about it, because by this time next year, unless certain steps the Isle of Man Steam Packet boat to travel two hours down - two I have outlined here - are taken, you lose another to Dun Laoghaire or Rosslare to get a day trip across to 10,000 tourists and it will not be worth your while putting spend their money on Sealink and Irish Ferries, to have a a ship on to Ireland or to anywhere else you want to put trip across to come back with duty-free and gifts. They were it on because Britain, as we have all heard, we know about actually passing our ship because you have only got to go that, they are not going to get out of this recession next year, across the Liffey from North Dublin. We have not taken it might be three or four years, and hopefully then, maybe. advantage of that and we must for this summer because not Contrary to what it says in this document, the indication to do it would be virtually criminal, Chief Minister. is that if Britain comes out of recession the Isle of Man may On top of that, if you had given them a taste, as we used automatically follow. Not true - the figures and statistics to, of coming to the Isle of Man the Irish people might once do not show that to be a fact, because in the best times in again - because we are losing them, do not you kid yourself: Britain we in tourism in this Island were still going downhill. out of 50 people I asked were they coming back to the Isle So what gives you the indication that if we come out of the of Man 43 said straight off the cuff, 'No'. 'Why?', we asked recession in Britain we automatically will gain back any them. It is not the hotels, it is not that they do not love the tourists? Tourists go to places they want to go to because Isle of Man - three things they said: the cost of getting here, they want something out of it, whether it be relaxation, et there was nothing to do when they got here, and nobody cetera, et cetera. In two years' time not only what is left of cared. Three answers - we have got to reverse that because the Douglas promenade will be devastated but all the what is going to happen - and I can prove this - the reason facilities that go to servicing the tourist will have disappeared the Villa Marina cabaret went from £11,000 deficit to £1,000 because it is not economical for the private sector to run deficit, let me tell you - and I congratulate them, and I hope and Government probably will not have the money, when we all will, the committee - but the reason was it was the it comes to laying out the cash, to keep them in operation. only cabaret for a family to go to in the whole of Douglas Now, hon. members, if that is being a Jonah, I do not mind East. There was no other family entertainment - all right, being it because that is the truth. What do we do? A lifeline you can say there was the other Government-owned and run

• Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T52 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 and underwritten event which is the Gaiety Theatre, but they Company, will not lose money, we in the Island will have did not have a family cabaret on - and the reason they were more money being in our shops, certainly in Douglas if they successful - they still lost a thousand pounds on the season do not get out to the country, and we will actually be - was because there was nowhere else to go. Now, if you producing something for the money we are investing. Failing are on holiday you are only going to see a cabaret once, to do that, hon. members - and that is why I am saying it unless you are really a fan, and that is what happened: after is the last effort - you are condemning what is left of the five days our customers were bored to tears. Now, do not Tourist Board and the industry to a total collapse caving take my word for it: ask people. inwards because the substance has gone out of it and if you The second piece of policy for this season, this summer, do not believe me, walk along Douglas promenade - that this year has to be why is it that the figures did stay up during is the substance: it has gone, and the rest is going to cave January, February and March and will stay up probably the in. latter months outside the season? Because we have a built- Hon. members, somebody said, 'I did not come here to in market in this Island, we have the Manx people, your praise Ceasar, I came to bury him.', or the other way relations, my relations, your friends, my friends who still around. I did not come for any other reason than to tell you: come to the Isle of Man. The unfortunate part is they are the writing is on the wall and it has been on the wall for coming in smaller numbers and you ask your friends and a long time. If you do not believe me, look at the two charts your family why that is, and they will tell you it is the cost which the Chief Minister referred to, which I have studied of getting here. They still love you and they still love the and I have studied every other document concerned. If you Island, but they will not pay exorbitant charges when they do not believe me, read the charts, look at Douglas can get better value by going somewhere else. If they only promenade, but instead of spending £5 1/2 million just to keep come once a year, try and get them twice a year and if we the department going and the brochures going and the agents put in a special package for Manx people coming back - going, spend some of it - I am only asking for 1'/ /2 per because they spend money in the shops, they spend money cent. - to underwrite that ship, to guarantee the shareholders in the restaurants, they do all the things that we do - if you will not lose money, and I guarantee you if you go out there want to keep the economy going through this recession, in with it, and you sell it you will not regret it, and, what is tourism, they are just as much a tourism, they just maybe more important still there will be hope for what is left of sleep in your house or their friends' house rather than in the tourist industry and the industry of the Island. Thank a hotel, but they are still tourists. That policy has to be you, Mr. President. adopted and it has to be with vigour we attack the policy. Now, I do not expect the Steam Packet shareholders to The President: Now, before the next speaker, who is the pay for this, I do not expect that at all. I put forward a hon. member for Michael, I just want to make a point, hon. document two years ago, which never came to fruition, on members. In the course of Mr. Delaney's presentation to the third ship which is now being demolished in Liverpool. the Court papers were being circulated which were entirely I tell you this: if the policy of the Department of Tourism unrelated to the debate. I have made this point before, I am had been perceived and pursued as being 'Tourism and not going to accept the practice during this session, and the Reality' the funding was already built into that policy. If messengers will please note that no papers will be circulated you take the document, the matter I raised, the Government unrelated to the particular debate unless authorised by the through the department stated in this Court that the policy Clerk. It is a practice, hon. members, which, when you have was to reduce by 30 per cent. the staff of the Department a member in full flow and you then get a paper thrust in of Tourism. That has not occurred. I am not going to front of you, is disconcerting to everyone concerned. Thank criticise, they will tell me for all reasons. It has actually gone you, hon. member. Will you proceed, sir. up by two-plus, but that is beside the point. If that policy in any other private company when it is going downmarket, Mr. Cannan: Thank you, Mr. President. Well, you have when they are losing their customers, they are losing their heard the hon. member for East Douglas when he was sales, they have to focus on overheads and you have to cut talking about tourism and the writing on the wall. People, your overheads. Well, what makes us so different? Tourism in this Policy Report, are looking for confidence, whether is a business and if you are not producing the goods and they are in the tourist industry, or the agricultural industry, your customers are going down, you have got to address or finance, or manufacturing, they want to hear a policy the overhead. So when they said they were going by 30 per of confidence for the future, not dwelling on the past. We cent. two years ago I could accept that, but I asked how are an independent nation and Tynwald is responsible for it was going to be done. Well, to now it has not been done the performance of our Government and Tynwald is but had we done it, take the wages that would have given responsible for the success or failure of the economy and us - 30 per cent., at least £1/4 million of extra revenue without it is really no use blaming everybody else and pretending asking for any more from the Treasury to put into the thing that it is everybody else's fault. If you are running a business I am asking for - guarantee the Steam Packet Company - and we always tried to run the Isle of Man as Isle of Man against loss and instead of that ship coming out in TT week, Limited - you start to look to yourself because when you bring it out in April - and Easter this year, by the way, falls run out of money and you go down to the bank manager earlier on 9th April - bring it out, use the second ship, not he does not want to hear that it is all Joe Bloggs's fault that only to promote Easter, but after Easter start that ship you are in trouble; he wants to know what you are doing running from Dublin and get the people used to, by the time about it and what you are going to do about it for the future. they get to the summer, coming out and instead of travelling This document, as I have said, offers little inspiration or to Rosslare to get on the Welsh boat to spend their money confidence or vision for the future, but the document, as on there, to come across and get the same advantages from Mr. Speaker has said, tells us much about how we are going the Isle of Man and instead of travelling two hours down to spend money and how we are going to be governed. to do it from Dublin, the capital, we can at least get 10 per Wonderful! I have no real fault in that. But before I spend cent. of the market which this year was over 180,000 persons. money I generally check up whether I have got it and this That alone will get more money back so the Steam Packet document tells us nothing about how we are going to earn

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T53

the money. determined, all our rates and monetary policy are determined Now, what really is the resolution we are being asked to outside the control of this Island, outside the control, and debate? 'That Tynwald receives the Policy Report 1992 and really caution at this time in expenditure and a vision and (a) approves the report as a statement of policy;'. That is action and confidence in obtaining the growth, the economic difficult to justify that is very difficult to justify and many set-up, is the way it should be, because, as another member speakers have already said they find it hard to approve it has said, as the belt tightens in the United Kingdom, so they as a statement of policy. And it also 'endorses, as a general will be pursuing every possible aspect to obtain growth strategy, the provisional programmes of legislation, revenue somewhere, somehow. Every factory that we chase outside and capital expenditure and other initiatives contained the United Kingdom to come and invest here, they will be therein.' How can we endorse it when it has already been chasing too. We have a tremendous challenge ahead and pointed out to us, hon. members, that they talk about a 2 when you have the challenge ahead - caution with our per cent. growth in the economy, that the Treasury Minister expenditure, caution, and I ask you just to receive the Policy has not yet got to his feet to give an explanation as to how Report, do not endorse it, do not endorse the capital and the 2 per cent. got in, an explanation of how when in his revenue you might - I hope not of course - but you might Budget speech he said everything was going to be rosy? He live to regret it; better to just sit on the side and keep on has not replied to the hon. member, he has not said how the margin. he intends if we do not get the 2 per cent., how we are going to go along on deficit budgeting, because approving this A Member: Do nothing. document means agreeing to deficit budgeting - it is based on growth and if that growth does not occur, what is going A Member: Sit on the fence. to happen? Now, the hon. member for Ramsey has already spoken Mr. Cannan: It is not do nothing: we have got a policy well of the problems of deficit budgeting. Are we to use our that will do something. This is a policy of do nothing, this reserves? Are we to continue spending without a policy for is a negative document in terms of economic growth. Do earning? We are already spending the interest on the you know, I met in the corridor outside the Chief Minister's reserves. We have got to bear in mind that if we vote for Office the other day two or three builders, they were going this resolution in all its parts we will be approving it as a in, they told me, to see the Chief Minister to tell him the statement of policy - state of the economy and to tell him the state of the construction industry, and those three builders - they were Mr. Kermode: Do not spend it on Glen Wyllin! not my constituents but I happen to know them - they all had the same message, Tor God's sake, let's give the Island Mr. Cannan: - it will be endorsing a general strategy of a vision forward, give us confidence, let us know what is revenue and capital expenditure. It will lead us down the happening.', and I am quite certain that they said the same road to deficit budgeting and that, it has already been said thing to the Chief Minister when they went in to see him, by other people here, is crazy economics. That is the issue I am quite certain they did. There is a problem - before you and while there are many things in the document that I am quite willing to support, many expenditure Mr. North: They were waiting for a planning appeal. programmes, I am happy to receive the Policy Report, I am certainly not willing to approve the report as a statement Mr. Cannan: They were not waiting for a planning of policy and I am certainly not willing to endorse as a appeal. general strategy the revenue and capital expenditure programmes. You cannot; if there is to be financial Mr. Kermode: I can understand why people are shooting responsibility then you just cannot accede to that. themselves in Kirk Michael! So, Mr. President, I am moving an amendment: Mr. Cannan: They were not there either. They were Omit all words after "1992". people who are very seriously concerned because they are going to have to lay off their workers, which may well be Yes, let us receive the report but you will be fairly bold in your constituency, Mr. Kermode. Perhaps you treat it as if you agree to approve the report as a statement of policy a joke, I am sure you do, when your workers are paid off and very bold if you endorse the capital and revenue in your constituency. expenditure plans when you have not really got a plan for economic growth, and that is fundamental, without a plan Mr. Kermode: Certainly not. for economic growth there are unlimited problems. The Treasury Minister knows it, the Treasury officials certainly Mr. Cannan: Well then - know it. It is not an easy path to go. The member for East Douglas has just explained that there The President: Hon. members, address the Chair. are ways of creating income and we will be explaining later on on the Agenda a policy which we believe will see us into Mr. Cannan: - that is why those construction employers the future and will give confidence and we will be prepared were there, to state the serious extent of the business, and to justify that when the time comes later on in this sitting it is serious, and unemployment is growing and everywhere of Tynwald. So I would say to hon. members a cautionary you go outside, even in the villages in the north of the Island, tale: do not go hang yourself or to commit yourself to they are beginning to feel the pinch too. endorsing everything here, just receive it. Nobody knows what is happening. We are of course committed to sterling, Mr. Kermode: Cut Government spending. our money is sterling, we have limited economic independence because our money is sterling, our bank rates Mr. Cannan: It is not Government spending. When you are determined by the Bank of England, our inflation is are short of money you have got two things to do: you either • Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — _Motion Carried T54 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 cut back or you decide to earn more to cover up, and that (Laughter) is what we are trying to do. We have problems, we have heard all the problems of the tourist industry - it is shocking. Mr. Catlin: This problem is intrinsically linked to Are you satisfied with what is happening? Of course you licensing laws. The committee intends to carry out an in- are not. Tourism affects everywhere, it even comes into the depth study into the Island's licensing laws which will also North, the farmers cannot sell their vegetables as they used include the seeking of relative information from selected to because there are no tourists to go to sell them to. We jurisdictions in various parts of the world with the aim of have tourist camp sites in other parts of the Island, and so producing long-term recommendations. on. It is important, hon. members, it is important, Mr. In relation to drugs the department was asked by the President, that we get everything into perspective in what Council of Ministers in June to consider a number of matters can be a very difficult time. Hon. members here might not including identifying other statutory and voluntary bodies think it is difficult - you ask and talk to ordinary people which could play a part in combating the drugs problem and outside. As I meet them they are very, very concerned: where the staffing of the Police Drug Squad. The department has is the Island going and how is the Island to meet its held a special meeting to consider these matters and an commitments? interim report is due to go to the Council of Ministers So, hon. members, I just ask you to receive the report shortly. and leave it at that. I move the amendment. A number of bodies have been identified as having a role to play in helping deal with this problem and letters have Mr. Duggan: I will second the amendment, Mr. been sent to them advising them of this fact and notifying President, of Mr. Cannan. them that an open forum meeting was to be arranged to which they would be invited to send representatives. The Mr. Kermode: Well, I am not surprised about that. purpose of this meeting is to bring representatives of interested bodies together for a full and frank exchange of Mr. Brown: No speech? views and identify further measures that can and should be taken. Mr. Catlin: Mr. President, there is much that I could The investigation of drug offences is being and has been, say in support of the 1992 Policy Report but I will keep my and I want to emphasise that, has been given priority by the remarks as far as possible to my own department. police. Members will, I am sure, have noted the comments Now, we all realise the importance of retaining the quality of the Chief Constable on this subject in his last annual of our Island life. Apart from having a good Health Service, report. One of the matters which my department was asked a good education service, the provision of adequate and by the Council of Ministers to examine was the staffing of good housing, a very important element is also the the Drug Squad and after seeking the advice of the Chief maintenance of law and order, ensuring a safe place in which Constable we concluded that the staffing of this squad to live, both as it affects the person and as it affects our needed to be increased from four officers to eight. As a result property. I firmly believe that it is the duty of each and every two extra officers are in the process now of being transferred one of us to do all that we can to ensure respect for the law. to the Drug Squad from other sections of the force, bringing There is of course an added duty on all those who have a the establishment to six, and it is intended that the situation responsibility involving young people, and I am thinking will be reviewed again later this year. Now, this is also here particularly of parents and school teachers. The important: additionally, the Drug Squad will continue to Department of Home Affair are aware there is concern in receive extra support from the CID and uniformed officers, certain areas involving the subject of law and order, and as it always has when operational matters make this essential I am thinking here again particularly about both the drug and when they can be spared from other duties. abuse and the alcohol abuse, but we accept and understand The transfer of two officers into the Drug Squad will the reasons for these concerns, and that is what is important, necessitate two other sections of the force being deprived and as a consequence we are taking steps to try and find of the services of one officer and could well have a a way forward to try and reduce these problems. detrimental effect, I have to say this, on the efficiency of I would now like to thank Mr. Waft for his concern and those sections. HM Inspector of Constabulary did state as his comments and I will do my best to respond in a positive recently as his 1991 report, July 1991, on the Isle of Man way. police, that he was satisfied that the resources then dedicated to combating the trafficking and misuse of drugs on the Mr. Kermode: As usual! Island were adequate. But there is no doubt that the situation has changed during the past year, and we accept this and Mr. Catlin: Firstly, my department is currently therefore the proposed increase in this establishment of the investigating, separately, both the alcohol and drug abuse Drug Squad is fully justified. problems. In relation to the alcohol problem a committee Now, I share and I understand the concern of hon. has been set up under my chairmanship to consider the draft members, and so I am pleased to give the assurances Mr. Licensing Bill and licensing laws generally and the abuse of Waft, the hon. member for Onchan, has asked for. I believe alcohol is one of the matters that the committee will be that the Department of Home Affairs should be left to looking into as part of its remit. The membership of that continue the work it has already commenced in investigating committee consists of my hon. colleague on the department, alcohol and drug abuse. A Select Committee investigation Mr. Karran, who is also a member of the Department of would, in my submission, be duplicating what my Education, the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Quine, the hon. department is already doing, and I do not believe that it is member for East Douglas, Mr. Kermode, the hon. member in the best interests of Government to have separate bodies for Council, Mr. Luft, and Mr. John Morley, who is investigating the same problem at the same time. representing the Tourism Department. The Home Affairs Department intends to be in a position to report with findings and recommendations within a period Mr. Kermode: That is why he has turned to drink! of six months on the problem involving drugs, and with

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T55

regard to the licensing and alcohol problems it may not be (Members: Hear, hear.) This could have not have taken possible to prepare a final report with recommendations place without of course the extra grant from the Treasury: within the six-month period, but the committee will at least Now, arts are demanded today by the people. It has been be in a position, I am certain of that, to make an interim rightly said that as a civilising influence art enhances the report within this period of time. quality of life, it is, at its best, the highest achievement of If I could just briefly refer to the comments that were the human spirit. made by Mr. Quine, he referred to the problem of illicit The members of the Arts Council have put in many hours drugs which he stated, according to the Chief Constable, of work this year to prepare policies, to ascertain views, to was increasing at an alarming rate. That is not in dispute, go out and see people, to ask the teachers and to consult we accept that fully, and he was quite right to say it. He with the various organisations and they have provided tried to make capital out of the fact that seven lines on this documented lists of activities, examples of what may be done serious subject was all that was included in the policy and there is altogether some form of artistic activity or document. The hon. member for Ayre is never satisfied endeavour included in their findings that would suit because last year his complaint was that the drugs problem everyone, every single person could benefit, and if all these did not receive one line. To be serious, however, comment plans can could be put into operation there will be by the departments for inclusion - and this is all departments incalculable benefits. What could be more important, for - in the Policy Report have to be condensed, and I would example, than guiding young persons into activities that can have thought that hon. members would have appreciated absorb their whole interest and provide worthwhile activity that. I can assure the hon. member for Ayre that, as already for the rest of their lives? How beneficial in fighting stated, the Department of Home Affairs is deeply concerned fundamentally problems such as the drug question and so over this particular problem and are acting accordingly. on. The benefits, of course, would be for all ages, and it Reference was also made to his paper, 'Review of Illicit is a materialistic world in which we are living today and the Drug Problem', a copy of which was sent to me. Contrary people do want an alternative. to his apparent belief, it has been fully considered by the All I would ask is that the Treasury, continuing their department and, a report is shortly to go to the Council of beneficent view, would continue to give serious consideration Ministers from the department and, as my colleague on the to making a considerable increase in the grant that may be Department, Mr. Karran, has already remarked, we did available for the Arts Council. We spend less per capita in consider that many of the points that were made were this Island than any other country in Europe on the relevant and were helpful. In my defense I did not appreciate advancement of the arts, and that is what I would urge might a response was called for from me because I was only one be a very appropriate provision and would be, as I say, of of several members who received that copy. benefit outside of material matters, so important as they are, Now, on a final note, nothing to do with the with the which have been thoroughly discussed today. policy debate but I do think it is just worth mentioning and that is that Mr. John Foster, the Assistant Emergency Mr. Kermode: Mr. President, I really was not going to Planning Officer, is due back on the Island shortly after a speak today. What brought me to my feet was the member very successful tour of duty in the Sarajevo danger zones. for Michael, as he usually does, because I am always Now, John has been the team leader of 15 truck convoys surprised when I listen to the ex-Minister for the Treasury. which have driven the 500 mile, 48-hour journey round trip He says and asks me do I care about unemployment, do I between the Croatian port of Split and Sarajevo 11 times care that people are unemployed in the Isle of Man. Of in the past month, and I think that is something that is very course I care about unemployment in the Isle of Man and nice to be able to report today. that is why I am supporting this document, this policy document that is before us today. The last time that the Mr. Luft: Mr. President, the policy document wins my Alternative Policy Group put a policy to this Court was to support. These policy documents seem to improve each year cut Government spending. At a time of recession when the and this one must be the best so far, (Interruption) but no private sector are not spending we look to Government to policy document, of course, is perfect and we have had today spend for the capital schemes of Government to create very interesting contributions, critical and otherwise, and employment in the Isle of Man. He never had much success very lengthy discussions and they have covered the economic with the airship coins and I do not think they will have much state of the Isle of Man, its advancement, they have covered success with their resolution this afternoon. (Laughter) industry, the tourist industry, they have covered the finance If members want to support his amendment, support it sector, law and order, they have covered education, almost by all means, but what are you supporting, what are you anything which is covered in the report, and in fact I telling this hon. Court to do? Do not support to protect the recognise the force of the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. human rights and fundamental freedoms of every individual, Groves' remark that without a succussful economic policy do not support to create oportunity for self-development and nothing else is possible. self-expression through education and training, do not But, hon. members, all these matters do not provide support to encourage self-reliance, and all the rest that is completely for the needs of man. One element which is in this policy document that I believe we should be lightly touched on in the report is that of leisure and I am supporting, and where does this document generate from? not going to deal with leisure generally because it is not Not just from the Chief Minister and not just from the everyone who can indulge in sport, but the arts have a niche ministers. It generates from departments, department for everyone. Now, this year the newly reconstituted Arts policies put into this document to come before Tynwald for Council has been enabled by a substantial grant by the your endorsement, and I am glad I am a member of a courtesy of the Treasury to arrange a visit, the weekend department, not like the hon. member, when I am on the before last, of the Halle Orchestra. Now, all those who inside doing a job of work and influencing that policy and attended one or both of those concerts given by this making my views well known, and if he was a member of magnificent orchestra must have come away from the Villa a department he would probably earn his coin in the eyes Marina excited and uplifted by the experience. of the people that he represents and influence this • Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T56 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Government policy and then could have more credibility in Mr. Kermode: You received it. Oh. (Laughter) my eyes. I listened earlier on to my colleague talking about the Mr. Gelling: You are impressed with this one, though. tourist industry and I cannot help it really, I have got to agree with him - it is true what he is saying about the tourist Mr. Kermode: I am certainly impressed because I am industry, so much so that I have had - and one of the biggest only sorry I never went through the Hansard and looked problems, forget all the rest of it, I do believe we have got at Dr. Mann's efforts when he was in Government once attractions in the Isle of Man, we do have things that people before, but I might do that before we get to his policy want to come and see, but the biggest problem that we have document and then we can see what he said years ago before got, and make no mistake about it, he mentioned Ireland coming here. and getting people in from Ireland. I have family in Southern I urge members to support the document, I will be Ireland. When they can go to Spain for £129 for a week, supporting the document, and they are not aims, I still which includes flight and everything else, they are not going believe they are policy, Mr. Groves. to come the Isle of Man. The cost of getting to the Isle of Man - the service is good, I am not complaining about the Mr. Gelling: Mr President, we have heard today, I think, service on board the ship or on board the planes, the service a cross-section once again as we hear every year and at is good, they have done their best to upgrade the services, Budget time because we hear members saying we should be both transportation companies to the Isle of Man - but the spending a little more here and a little more there and at cost of getting to the Isle of Man and I have had many a the same time cutting down on our costs, and recently I was person in the little club across the road who has come on at a seminar where it was suggested that the fees for the holiday, bowlers who have said they are not coming back seminar be put up a hundred per cent. and the statement next year because the cost of getting to the Isle of Man is was made that it was not the expenditure that was wrong, getting to be far too great. So what did I do about it? Like it was the income, and of course this is the problem, I think, my colleague - are you falling asleep or are you listening? that we all have, when we get used to a certain amount each year of an increase in a department's budget, I think successive people in my position, and certainly I have said Mr. Delaney: Oh, I am listening. I always listen to you. it at every Budget time, this cannot keep going on with the (Laughter) increases in department spending unless our incomes increase. Mr. Kermode: Like my colleague I too have done a little Now, I am sorry Mr. Quine is not here because he posed bit of research and in correspondence that I have had with the question was I personally under pressure within the Mr. Liddiard of Manx Airlines, on a regular basis, to-ing Council of Ministers. I would say certainly that is correct. and fro-ing, and I do believe that now, according to the I think any Minister for the Treasury at this time would be Chief Minister, the Minister for the DHPP is taking up one under pressure, under pressure to find income for services of my suggestions and I hope if he has not already spoken, that we have introduced in this Government for our people that maybe he could enlighten the members some time at which we want and the political will is there to keep those a future date exactly which way he is going with those talks, services for our people. So certainly we are under pressure. which was looking into the financial situation of that But to say that we are only looking perhaps at one side is company to prove if it is justified, the fares they are charging wrong. We are looking at the expenditure of departments in the Isle of Man. I wrote to them asking them if they would and we are looking very urgently, and have been for quite accept a consultant to look in behind the scenes as to what some time, at ways of increasing the income for our Island their operation and whether the cost of flights was justified and then in turn for our Government. to the Isle of Man. That was negative, but they did say that Statistics that we have and let us get down to assumptions. they would allow Government to go in and meet with Peat There have been remarks made about the two per cent. The Marwick McClintock, their accountants, and look at their two per cent. is not a prediction, the two per cent. is an financial situation to see where they were. So that was a step assumption it is so that all departments of Government are in the right direction and I am hoping some good might come operating to the same criterion, if you like, for assuming out of it. I cannot see it because I honestly believe they have where we will be. These are not there and predicted to stay diversified so much elsewhere outside of the Isle of Man and there, they are manipulated and manoeuvred as conditions that the Manx people are paying for it. I honestly believe and as statistics that we get come to the fore. that, I believe they have stretched themselves too far and I think the difference again, taking the hon. member for that the Manx people are having to pay for it. Ramsey when he mentioned ploughing and looking back, I do not want to speak for too long but I do intend to of course he was talking about a horse with a plough and support this document and I do not think any member, any the plough was in front, but of course today we have tractors hon. member of this hon. Court can do otherwise, because where the plough is behind you and you are always everything, all of you who are members of departments, all manipulating the plough each week with the new indicators of your policies that you have put forward are all in this and the new figures to be able to get perfection. We perhaps document, and what you are saying if you do not support will never get perfection but that certainly is what we are it and support the amendment is that you do not agree with after. what you have recommended to the Chief Minister and the Our VAT receipts from our own trade codes - now this Council of Ministers - what did you say, yes sir? is an indicator and those VAT receipts are up. Now, that is a fact, it is a fact, it is an indicator that we use. Office Dr. Mann: That is what you did last year. space - now, you cannot tell me, because I can see it with my own eyes, James Caine's site has now been taken over, Mr. Kermode: Did I? people are moving in, you have got the Victoria Street Gelling's Foundry site, people have moved in, you have got Dr. Mann: Yes, received it. the Saint Andrew's Church, people have moved in - this is

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T57

reality, this is what is happening, these are indicators, these must remember that we are now in a very, very competitive are indicators that we use to see how our economy is doing. world in offshore activities. A few years ago, again• I would say certainly there are people who are not doing mentioned by the hon. member from Ramsey, we had low as well as they were over the last four or five years, but wages, low-priced houses and certainly low-priced office certainly as I see the Island, we are still doing very, very well, space. That is not the case any more, and thankfully so - thank you very much, to what we were doing probably seven our salaries are up but our office space also is up, and our or eight years ago, and this is again what we have to gauge houses are at a level that we are out now in competition with ourselves on and as long as there is growth there, there is these people, we are not taking the overflow from other areas something that we can build on and, as that assumption has that are full we are now out there competing, and I would said, we are using the assumption that there will be very little like to say that as far as I am concerned we are looking to growth, but the indicators that we have available show us get the legislation right so that the private industry can go that that will get better after two years. out there and do the business; they are the people that do Now, I would be the first to agree that perhaps the the business. But if someone is asking me to start saying we indicators we have go are not as good as we would like them will not have these regulations and we will not have this to be, I would be the first to say absolutely right, because inspection and we will start now to encourage people who the indicators from the private sector are indicators that we probably two years ago we would not have liked to get voluntarily, it is not mandatory. Now, in the adjacent encourage, that is not, as far as I am concerned, the name isle these companies are told there is legislation, they have of the game. We are looking for good business for this Island to produce it. Perhaps this is the next step, but I think, in a well-regulated situation and there is business out there moving on, certainly whilst I have been in Government this to be got and we are definitely committed to going out to policy document has year by year given members more and get that business to increase our income, Mr. President. more information to try to be helpful in steering them on a policy course. We obviously give figures that then we can Mr. Gilbey: Mr. President, I do hope that we will not be criticised for, if we do not hit that particular target, but be spending money on getting more economic indicators. certainly, as I have said previously in this Court, the officers Frankly, it makes no difference whether we define the of the Treasury use the indicators available to give us the position as a recession, depression or slump. What matters politicians the best possible advice at that moment of time, is that we know things are not as good as we would like them and you only have to look back on records on our census to be and that there are problems. And we can find out and - my word, the statistics they had and the indicators came we do find out what is happening by contacts with pretty close within a few hundred of people on the Island industrialists and other business people. But the really when the census was taken. important thing is what are we doing to deal with the But pressures we are under, of course we are under problems, whatever we call the problems? I personally pressure at times when things are not as good as they were, believe that, being a small economy, our actions may well as I say, a few years ago, but the policy document gives you prove to be more poductive and more successful than the again the indication of how the situation would be year on actions of Govenments who have much larger economies to year if we decided in Government that at Budget time we manage. took those figures. We are not saying that we are going to The hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann, seems so far to budget for a deficit, we are showing how the figures would have only suggested spending money on introducing a system stack up if we left the figures as they are in that policy to get more economic indicators, which would not only be document. I certainly will not be budgeting for a deficit. expensive but, far more important, would provide more But it gives members the indication of where we are, where work and red tape for the very productive sectors of the the growth is, where we think we are going to be, economy who we are trying to encourage, and, as the hon. because let us face it, we are all in it — departments are Treasury Minister has mentioned, the difference is that in there, all members of departments are looking within this Island, thank goodness, the production of these figures their department to try to get value for money, to try is voluntary, whereas across the water it it compulsory and to see whether all the operations that are taking place often takes up a great deal of time and work. are still necessary, but then that is balanced again by I believe that, having read the Alternative Policy Group's the hon. member for East Douglas who has just resumed document, most of the small policies suggested in it are his seat when he said, yes, but that is the very time when already being carried out by various departments of Government should be spending to keep these people in Government, and I would certainly suggest that the two work. Well, I would hope the three builders who were going policies that the APG seems to regard as their centrepieces to see the Chief Minister would have been heartened by the would lead to nothing but economic disaster. (Mr. fact that Government is taking steps to put into the Kermode: Hear, hear.) However, there is no doubt that workplace work which is phased down particularly for the others and I will refer to this in a debate later in this session. small builders in our Island to keep them going until such On the other hand, what does this policy document say? times as the private building comes up again. And this is One only has to turn to the first page of the Chief Minister's the balance, we all know, we have all been through it before, introduction and there at the bottom it says: 'Existing we know there is a balance between we in Treasury would businesses should be encouraged and sustained; investment love to cut all the departments back and have a nice clean, should be promoted and the Island's international reputation straightforward Budget, but then there are the political should be defended. Training and retraining incentives inputs as to what we should be doing for our people to keep should be continued. The low taxation strategy should be them in work, to keep their houses up to the condition they maintained. Robust marketing and promotion of the Island should be in, and this is the balance that I am quite sure should be continued.', and a very important part, 'New that in the heart of hearts of all members when they read legislation should be aimed at encouraging growth rather this policy document, what they are seeing is a document than at greater regulation.' And then it says, furthermore, which shows that we are doing the very best for our people `Government's capital programme should be sustained to in the Isle of Man with the resources that we have, and we provide long-term infrastructure and a flow of work for • Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded —.Motion Carried T58 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Island firms.' Now, I do not see how anyone could object words. to agreeing to these very clear objectives. Also, those who attended the excellent briefing and discussion that took place Mrs. Hannan: Y Eaghtyrane. This debate or this policy on this document will know that the Chief Minister gave document has been described as not adventurous and good an absolute commitment to economic growth as a top housekeeping. Well, I would have thought there is nothing priority and said that the private sector should have our full unadventurous about good housekeeping. It makes the support. books balance and as one of the ministers who is a spending However, even more important, perhaps, than those minister and has not been able to make the books balance statements of policy is what is actually being done at the in the last financial year I suppose I stand in fear and moment to make them into realities, and there is no doubt trepidation of this hon. Court. However, it is not boring at all that the Treasury Minister and the Treasury are doing to have good housekeeping, it is not boring to make the everything they can to stimulate the expansion and books balance, and I think that it might be boring, this diversification of the financial sector. I well know what is debate might be boring, when you compare with what has being done in the Department of Industry, but there is no been going on in Britain in the last recent weeks, whether need for me to take up the time of this hon. Court by it has been Maastricht or whether it has been coal or energy repeating it because the hon. minister has both explained policy, ministers having to go before the first House and it to this hon. Court and to the media. When we turn to answer questions from their own side. So, yes, I suppose agriculture it must be extremely welcome that the Chief this afternoon is boring, it is only about making ends meet Minister has said that a new policy of agricultural help is having balanced the books to a great extent. going to be introduced and has intimated that this will cost There has been comment made today in questions and in more and therefore must be of greater benefit to the farming the debate by the Department of Education, and that is why community. When we turn to construction we only have to I am speaking now. It seemed that the comments were that read the Agenda of today's sitting to see the very worthwhile the National Curriculum as imposed by the United Kingdom efforts that are being made: the Property Repair and was very well, very nice, very good. There were revisions Modernisation Schemes, the Roof Space Insulation Scheme, coming up proposed by the UK, and I also got the the Residential Property (Rewiring) Scheme, to name but impression that that was okay. But any suggestions of a few, will all provide a worthwhile economic stimulus to change on our side were absolutely and strictly taboo. Could the building and constuction industry. I explain that the Department of Education does not have And that brings me to the point where I cannot agree with to follow the UK, we can pick and we can choose what policy my very good friend the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. of the National Curriculum we want, to fit in with our Groves, in saying it is madness for Government expenditure desires and our wishes for our pupils. We do choose to a to exceed income in the present circumstances, and I great extent to follow the National Curriculum of England certainly hope that the hon. Treasury Minister will not be and Wales because that is what it is, England and Wales, persuaded by such arguments which are totally contrary to because the majority of our pupils do go on to further all Keynesian economic arguments. To cut back Government education in England and Wales. expenditure, whether on revenue or capital accounts, at a The National Curriculum is not new, the National time of recession can only have an economically depressing Curriculum was first dreamt up in the 1940s and that is when fate and make the recession worse. the UK brought forward their Education Bill of 1944, our Now, it is true that the UK may have to cut back their Bill of 1949 and it is a Bill which we still use in the capital and revenue expenditure, due to that huge forecast department for statutory purposes. I believe that we can take revenue deficit of £20 billion to £30 billion and also their out the best of education from other areas and use it to the substantial borrowings. However, we are in a far stronger best for our pupils, for our students, and I do not see nything position. Our forecast deficit is miniscule. Furthermore, we wrong with their being Manx changes or even Manx have substantial reserves, although personally, I wish, as I investigations into how things can be done better. have said previously, that we had built them up more in the The comment was made that there was increased violence last boom so we had more to use now. However, I am certain and I thought that I had made it quite clear this morning that it would be quite right to draw on those reserves in times that there was one case of violence in the year 1991/92, there of difficulty to stimulate the economy and in particular the was a threatened assault in the year 1989/90, but none in building and construction trade. I believe that as a matter the year 1990/91. Now, somebody has got the impression of principle Government should have revenue surpluses and that there is increased violence. There were increased build up reserves at a time of boom, but it is equally quite recorded cases of verbal abuse. There is a difference and proper for Governments to have reasonable revenue deficits I would not want this hon. Court to think that there was and to draw on reserves in difficult times. Indeed one can mass violence going on out there. There was a feeling, after say for a fact that if all the worlds Governments go in for the last case was so publicly brought to the public's notice policies that depress economic activity by cutting expenditure in the paper, that a licence was being issued to students: you or raising taxes the present worldwide recession will most can do it, all you have got to do is go round your classmates, certainly become a slump. If we cut our expenditure at the collect enough money - I mean this is what was said - and present time we will certainly further depress the economy. you can get away with it. I therefore support deficit budgeting in the present Could I assure members that the case that was involved circumstances and for this reason alone would not support in the last year did go to court, the student was fined, he the amendment but support the adoption of the report. Of did not return to the school except when it involved taking course no-one can agree with every item of the report and examinations, and this was a point raised by the member I am sure, in approving it, it is not expected by anyone in for Glenfaba this morning when he said what happens to this hon. Court that that means one agrees with every word students when they leave school, when they are expelled from on the 100-plus pages of it or every proposal in it. However, school or when they are suspended from school? The I certainly support its main aims and policies and particularly department does have a responsibility and in this case there what is actually being done, because deeds mean more than was concern because this pupil was allowed to go back into

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T59 the school to complete his examinations, and that, I believe, which I must commend to this Court. I will be supporting is where the concern has led and the extra publicity being the document obviously, but there are two areas which I given to this case. commend fully and in doing that I would urge the member But I certainly would not want members to think that there for Michael not to proceed with his - I know he has moved is this huge amount of greatly increased violence going on it - but I would urge him to vote against it as well purely in our schools. I think I covered this morning what we are for some of the remarks that he made this morning at doing within the schools and within the department and Question Time. The individual right of petition - I believe working with everybody involved. But at the moment we that it is something that we should have had restored to our have a strict policy which we intend to adhere to, and I will people as long ago as 1976 when it was removed from our repeat it again because I feel that from the comments made people, and I believe that as a mature Government we should this afternoon the member did not understand what I was be able to give that right back to all our people. Article saying, that there is no place for violence in our schools and 6(3)(c) - and this is the point that he was making this morning should any incident occur, the offender would be - is: 'Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the immediately suspended whereupon the department would following minimum rights' and (3)(c) says: `To defend request a further investigation to address the needs of the himself in person or through legal assistance of his own individual and of the establishment. If the department choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal considers that there is the likelihood of any danger to fellow assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice students or staff the offender will not be allowed to return so require.' I would hope that the member for Michael, to the school. The department has taken this matter very saying what he did this morning before the Court on a seriously and will continue to take it seriously and will be certain subject, can actually support this policy document, awaiting the report from this committee which is sitting at because it does restore the right of individual petition, it does the moment. guarantee that to every individual in the Isle of Man. The There was mention made of school holidays. This, at the other area that I support wholeheartedly is under the 'Police' moment, has not been brought before me, it is still before where it says: 'The United Kingdom's Police and Criminal a committee. The committee is made up of association Evidence Act of 1984... introduced many safeguards and members, that is, members of teaching unions, and also rights for persons in police custody. Some of the provisions Board of Education representatives and this committee is of this Act have already been introduced in the Island and attended by the officials of the department. others will be introduced in the 1992/93 legislative year.' The other area of concern this afernoon is drug abuse and I commend this policy document, I believe it does protect alcohol abuse. The member for Onchan did raise the point or at least it affords protection in the long run to some of this afternoon about the Drug Abuse Committee of 1987/88. our people. I commend it to the Court. There is still work going on within the Department of Education and the Department of Health and Social Security Mr. Brown: Mr. President, I have listened with interest with regard to further developing. There already is a health to the debate that has gone on this afternoon and early this policy, a health education policy, but we are further evening and in fact the emphasis that has been put on by developing this and this development goes on continually certain members about the status of the document, and it all the time. In the document under 'Education' on page 37 is interesting that that argument now is about three or four it might only be a small mention but it mentions next to the years old with regards to how, when it suits, the emphasis last line: '...cross-curricular links providing Health, Careers is changed as to why they do not like to think the document and Information Technology Education will give a balanced is the right way forward. Curriculum within which all children can prosper.' The I think what we have to do is realistically look at this movement is towards education. This report also, and it has document as it is, which is it gives an overview, its states not been addressed and I hope that the member for Home the policies and aims of Government, and it gives Affairs will take up the very grave concerns expressed by information that is not easy to find within the governmental this committee at that time about under-age drinking, about structure, and that informtion is of importance and of off-licences, about the control of the numbers of off- assistance to Government departments for planning and for licences, people serving in off-licences - there are many areas the private industries in the Isle of Man for their planning here which still have to be addressed. But I believe that the if they are fitting into an area that may well be within the policy, the Department of Education, along with the document. Department of Health and Social Security, are actually The other thing that I think we have to realise is that this developing this from this report today and I feel that we are document in a way, while saying a bit of what has gone on going some way. In this report. I am not sure whether I will is looking forward, we should not forget that the be able to find it or not, but there is concern expressed that departments of Government are in fact going on, work is you cannot say 'Don't' because if you say 'Don't', as in going on, long term, medium term, short term, with regards prohibition, people will go out and they will do it. What to creating work, creating opportunities, investing or we have to do is educate the young people and not so young whatever it may be, and I think the hon. member for people about the dangers of alcohol. It is socially acceptable Glenfaba was right when he said, whether it be capital or to drink, but I think we have to educate people to address revenue, this Government, through what it is doing, is alcohol in an informed capacity, knowing the problems that feeding into the economy which in fact is reliant on a lot can be afforded by the over-indulgence and addiction of of Government work. alcohol, and I would hope that the Home Affairs can The first thing we should rely on or should remember is actually take notice of the drug abuse because when we that in fact we have a very small and therefore a fragile looked at drug abuse on that committee we decided, yes, economy. Our economy can be affected quite easily by there was a drug problem, but the biggest problem was abrupt changes of policy by Tynwald Court because it has alcohol, and it is socially acceptable, obviously it is a legal such a direct effect in feeding what it does into the market. drug, but it is still a drug, a drug of addiction. For example, if the Government decided tomorrow it was Before I end there are two areas in the policy document going to cease having a Government mortgage scheme the Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded —Motion Carried T60 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

number of first-time buyers would drastically reduce, continuing story, it goes on each year; the document has therefore the number of houses being built would drastically improved, it has provided more information. reduce, the number of houses sold would drastically reduce, I believe, for example, the criticism that has been about and that is just one item. So while we are providing a system the capital programme, andnd again the hon. member Mr. that is providing opportunities for people within the Island Gilbey was absolutely right: it is very easy to cut back our that we feel we should, it also has another benefit which is capital programme. But what are the implications of that? that it creates business within the market, and therefore that The first thing it will hit is the building industry. The one is important. that is already having the greatest difficulty at this moment But one thing I am surprised that has not come out in is the building industry because it is always the first that is the debate today, no member has really touched on it, and hit. So therefore it is an instant barometer of that section that is while we all have a concern about unemployment and, because if work stops, that is the first to pay off. yes, unemployment is rising and, yes, Government is Now, I think the way we are going forward is correct. We responding to that to some degree by introducing some new are trying to encourage our capital programme to carry on. schemes at this session, and I hope members will support There are difficulties in a number of areas so we are also them - and we are not overreacting, but we are responding, introducing some new capital. But there is also a lot of our I think, sensibly - but the one thing that has surprised me money we spend in revenue terms that creates work in the which nobody has mentioned and that is school leavers. Not building market, not just in capital, and what is important one member has talked in this whole debate, the APG as is that we as ministers and we as members of departments they call themselves, or anyone else, has said, what is make sure that we work hard to meet our commitments for happening to the young people? Because whereas we have the year, what we are saying we are hoping to achieve, and got the unemployment figures, the one area that is causing that we work hard to create opportunities. the greatest difficulty - it is not a big number but it is there I think it is important in determining the way forward, - is a small number of young people who are having difficulty to see that we use what we have to the best ability, and, getting jobs. They are having difficulty getting again, the hon. member for Glenfaba said something like apprenticeships because some of the bigger firms will not a time like this is the very time we should use our reserves take apprentices on, even though, through the Department to help the economy keep moving, and I think that is of Industry, we actually provide very good support. Local absolutely right, as long as we are careful, as long as we authorities arguing, one arguing they could not afford to know consciously what we are doing and we are not going take an apprentice on this year because they had not mad, and that has to be right because otherwise the question budgeted for it. They did not even get off their butts, pick has to be, what are we building reserves up for if we cannot up the phone and find out what could they get. And what use them at a time when things are poor or things are could they get? A year, at no cost to them, an apprentice. reducing? And that was always said, one of the reasons. So instead of saying, 'What are the long-term implications Reserves are there for other reasons, and I understand that, to us as ratepayers?' they just said, 'We could not afford but when you have a situation where things are a little bit it.', and that is just one area. And the thing that I have been difficult, you should use them. trying to say to local authorities in my discussions with them One of the things I have to say that is concerning me a over the last year or so is Government has a job to do and little bit, and I have to say this is my own personal political they have a job to do because they are Government also, view, is this sudden what I find rush, strong interest in they are not something separate, they are part of us, and privatisation in the Island. I think we have to be very, very they have a job, the same as us, to help in the market. But careful with that, again for different reasons than the UK. that is just one example, a very small one, of a problem we We have a different infrastructure and we may be able to have of attitude, and if Government itself is reluctant to privatise certain aspects of it, but I would think that is going create opportunities for apprentices or unskilled young to be something we have to look at very carefully and I people who maybe have not got qualifications, then private would hope members would not be rushing into 'It's a great enterprise itself will be reluctant. And all I am saying is I idea because it gets rid of something.' We have to look was surprised nobody raised the point of, where are the further than that as to the effects on the whole of the problems? And that is a small number, but a very important infrastructure. small number which I think and I know the Minister for One of the points that was made quite strongly was, what Industry is taking on board because he is concerned also. is Government doing with the private sector? And I think But the one thing that we have to do is to look at the for the first time for many, many years we have actually document overall, and it is very easy in a dcoument like this got Government and the private sector working together to pick out one piece and say 'Isn't that bad?' and if you better than they have done for a long time, and I just give want an excuse to vote against it, then you have found it. the example of Douglas 2000 where we have this partnership, What you have to do is take a view of the whole document where there is tremendous interest, at this time when people and you look at what it is doing or what it is saying about, know things are a little bit more difficult, where there is and at the end of the day all of us in this hon. Court, apart tremendous interest from private industry in saying, looking from five who are elected members, in fact have an active further ahead, 'Now is the time to be working this up to role to play within departments and we therefore have a get ready to go because when things improve or if our direct influence on the way forward that we are all trying situation improves we can get out and get on with it.' We to progress to create investment opportunity. are looking at Douglas seafront. Again the hon. member for East Douglas I think said a lot of pertinent points with A Member: Six. regards to the problems of tourism, and 1 think we are all aware of that and we have seen it going down and declining. Mr. Brown: Sorry, six - the hon. Mr. Speaker, but I You only had to walk along Douglas promenade this know he does other work. But anyway I am just making summer and some areas were beautiful, but you walked a the point that in fact we all have got a job to do. This bit further and it was terrible - weeds growing out of document is not the end of something, it is the start of a pavements. It was diabolical. Buildings with old bits of paper

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T61

lying about and so on and so on; you can go on. You walked is no doubt about that. up there and you imagine being a holiday-maker and seeing I was pleased to here Mr. Brown gave us some indication that. But, with respect, that responsibility is elsewhere, for of what his department were doing, in particular with keeping it clean, for keeping it weed-free or whatever. So Douglas 2000. I am very, very pleased to see that the private there are things that we all need to work for and we all need sector are working with Government. Any of us who are to work at. realists know that when we look at Douglas now and the We are looking at simplified planning zones, we are state of the seafront and the promenade there is no other looking at enterprise zones. Things are happening, looking way to go. There is only one logical course left to us, that to generate confidence, to generate investment and to is, to get involved with the private sector and make this generate interest, and all I can say is I think we all accept Douglas 2000 work. If it does not, this place will be like a criticism of policies because that is what this forum is about: ghost town in no time at all. members are here to criticise, to put points of view, to put We also need, as Mr. Brown said, to look at special alternatives. I do not think anybody objects to that. I think development zones. To take my own minister Mr. Bell's idea the point that I find unfortunate is when it is overplayed forward, this fast-track planning, that has got to be and the message can go out, which I think is overplayed something we have got to look at. (Interruption) And when sometimes, giving the wrong impression of what is going you see or you hear that a firm has wanted to come to the on. I still believe, and certainly talking to most of my Isle of Man and they have been sensible about coming here constituents, that most of my constituents certainly are and it has taken three years from planning to them actually reasonably confident in the way things are in the Isle of Man. getting the first spade in the ground there is something They are worried about what is going on in the UK, there radically wrong, and I think it is something that we have is no doubt about that, because they think that will affect really got to work to and bury some of these differences that us if it does not get sorted out in the near future, but at the we may have as individual members. Let us try and fly the moment they are still seeing themselves reasonably well off, flag for the good of the Isle of Man. they are still seeing their sons getting jobs and their daughters Incentives through tax, that is another thing. But another getting jobs, but, as I say, once that starts to cause a area I think we have got to look at, particularly as a tourist problem, that is the time when people will start to lose town now and as the capital of the Isle of Man, Douglas, confidence, and I think we all have a job to play, not we have got to look at a more sympathetic mix in the town. pretending, not overplaying anything, but telling people We have got to get rid of the old ideas, that that has got what is going on and trying to make sure that we encourage to be tourism, nothing else, and, I mean, it goes without people to invest and to go down. And the hon. member for saying you do not put an old people's home next to a disco, Council, Mr. Anderson, has just eradicated me with his but whatever we have down on Douglas promenade has to finger and I was just coming to the end of my speech be sympathetic and it has to be something that is going to anyway. But I do think it is important that we do at least improve what we have got down there in the town. go in the right direction and that direction is to give confidence and to work to make sure people are working Mr. Kermode: They would enjoy that! with us, and I think a supportive vote in support of the Chief Minister's resolution is what we need. Mr. Downie: I was quite taken aback with Mr. Delaney's speech. I thought it was a very, very good speech, Mr. Downie: Mr. President, I see no difficulty in well put together and it is good to see that he has picked adopting this policy and in fact giving it my full support, up a few tips from his trip in Australia, (Laughter) very, the report. There are one or two points, though, that have very good indeed. been discussed throughout the debate. I was quite pleased to hear Mr. Callin, the Home Affairs Mr. Delaney: Sometimes I was with 'roos! Minister, give an assurance to the hon. Court that his department were prepared to set up this committee. I have Mr. Downie: He is quite right what he says: we have been very, very worried about the way things have gone on got a major problem with the transportation. But 1, just recently and in fact for the last two or three Friday and unfortunately, do not share his belief that we are looking Saturday nights there have been incidents where there have now at the death throes of the tourist industry, and I would been gangs of up to 150 to 200 youths in Douglas on the use this example. There is one man in this Isle of Man that Douglas seafront, some as young as 11 and 12, absolutely has probably got more business brains and acumen than the drunk out of their minds, inhaling solvents in plastic bags, rest of this Chamber put together. Now, he is investing up taking pills and tablets, and through the auspices of Mr. to £30 million in the Isle of Man, the tourism development. Callin I actually went out with the police on Friday night Now, what does that tell us? It tells us that we may be and saw what action was being taken myself. I also was thinking of doom and gloom, but he may see another privileged to meet the hon. member from Onchan, Mr. picture, and, let us be honest, he has backed a lot of winners Karran, who was very, very aware of what was going on in his day and without naming the man, I am sure he is and very supportive, and I would just like to say that, in working in the right direction - support of Mr. Waft and the resolution he has before the Court, it is a major problem, it has got to be addressed, it Mr. Kermode: We know it is Mr. Speaker! is totally alien to the Manx way of life, and I think that together we can stamp it out or do something to contain it. Mr. Downie: - and we should be supporting schemes, This teenage drugs and alcohol-related problem has we should be improving the economy in the Isle of Man. tremendous overtones and when we see the way the Island has gone in the last 12 months there has been a dramatic Mr. Kermode: It is Mr. Speaker he is talking about! increase in crime and vandalism. It is a regular thing on Douglas promenade now for dustbins to be set on fire and Mr. Downie: To move on to the sea services, as I said rolled across the streets. It has got to be stamped out. There before, Mr. Delaney is quite right. Here we are on an island. • Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T62 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992

Everything that comes to this Island or goes off it is tomorrow and not at quarter past eight in the evening. dependent on the carriers, and we have heard all the arguments, all the different elements have been brought out Mr. Kermode: It depends what time we get home and dusted off. We have got to make a decision and we have tonight. got to make it much more accessible, for a start, and a lot cheaper to travel to the Isle of Man. It saddens me that on Mr. Downie: Having represented the area where the a Saturday people can travel from the Isle of Man to hospital is in town at the moment for the last five years, Liverpool to take their money and inject it into the economy four years as a councillor and a year now as a Member of of Liverpool for £20 (Mr. Cretney: Hear, hear.) and yet the House of Keys, I can understand all the problems it is virtually nearly half as much as that again to come from associated with that building and as far as I am concerned the other side to the Isle of Man. Now, something has got Mr. May will have my one hundred per cent. support. (Mr. to be wrong there when we are trying to support a tourist Kermode: Hear, hear.) (Interruptions) industry. We hear about all these ideas - I wonder whether In conclusion I would just like to say I am sure this is there is a need maybe to run the boat and just have it a right and most sensible policy for the people of the Isle stopping in the Isle of Man. If it ran between a UK port of Man and I would urge members to support it. Thank you. and Ireland would they not come in for some sort of an EEC subsidy or a grant? Mr. Cretney: Vote!

Mr. Kermode: Or a drink! A Member: Vote!

Mr. Downie: I do not know. It could be worth pursuing. The President: May I call upon the Chief Minister to Something has got to be done. We are dying here because reply? Reply, sir. it is definitely too expensive to get here. Despite what all these people in the carriers may tell you, that is the main Mr. Walker: Thank you, Mr. President, I will keep it problem and the main complaint we get about the Isle of short but I think it is too important a debate just to gloss Man, the cost of getting here. But in fairness I think over over and take a vote like that. the last few months, I know my department has seen it, there My intention when I moved this Policy Report earlier this is a better thread of relationship building up now with the afternoon was not to put a false gloss on our economy, not Steam Packet Company. We have seen a tremendous change to cover up the hard facts of what is happening in this Island and I think all looks well for the future. But we still must of ours. My intention was not to mislead, as was suggested keep the pressure on and we still must bring the price down by one of the members who made his contribution. My and get travel at a more realistic cost. intention was to place in front of members the situation as As far as doing things in the Isle of Man and providing we see it, unpalatable as that may be in some areas, but I things for people to do, I think without question one of the was not going to give a false picture in any one of those best success stories that the Isle of Man has seen has been areas. the way the Story of Mann package has come together, and I think the debate has been a constructive one, at least I know some members may be critical in some areas, but I will accept that the majority of remarks made were one has to appreciate how important or how big a prize it constructive, although I have to say I found just a little bit is for a place like the Isle of Man to go out and be awarded of difficulty in that. The debate is important, though, the 'Museum of the Year'. I mean, it is a tremendous because it is an opportunity for members to make their achievement. And we have got Castle Rushen now, we are contribution in a way which can mould and be taken into bringing new life to Castletown, and I hope eventually the account when we are developing the various policies of story of Mann will finish off with a Viking Centre in Peel, Government. So we have been listening and we have been so we have a really good package to put together to give taking careful note of members' contributions. our tourists something to do while they are here. I do not As I said before, it was suggested that it was a misleading agree with Mr. Delaney that there is nothing to do in the document that I had placed in front of this hon. Court. I Isle of Man. have to say it is an honest presentation, it displays some of the problems we face in as straightforward a way as we are Mr. Delaney: I did not say there was not. I said that is able to do. what the customers think. I have sat here for five years now listening to members respond to this policy debate, taking advice of how to Mr. Downie: Well, if the customers think there is develop policies, taking advice of how to develop objectives, nothing to do, maybe we are attracting the wrong type of taking advice of how to develop strategies. I do hope that customer - hon. members will recognise that we have learnt some of what they have been saying, although I have to say it is rather Mr. Brown: They need a bridge to get to the Museum! like chasing the end of a rainbow. There is an acceptance, (Laughter) though, that the policy formation, the objective - setting and so on in this document today is more useful and more Mr. Downie: - and the majority of people who I talk practical than it has been in the past, and for those members to, once they get out of Douglas they say it is a fantastic who have made that sort of comment, I thank them. An Island here, beautiful. awful lot of work, not of ministers, but of officers, of senior officers, a lot of work and a lot of time has been spent in Mr. Kermode: Hear, hear. They do say that. developing and producing those policies and objectives and I think it would be a shame if they were just glossed over Mr. Downie: I want to move on briefly now to the the and ridiculed, as has been the attempt from time to time health services, nobody has discussed the health services. I with our documents. look forward to the debate and I hope it is fairly early on I was interested to hear members criticising the economy

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T63

and its development and the activity within it. It is not long, with and that is in overall terms advantageous to this Island it is only a couple of years ago when some of the same of ours. (Mrs. Hannan: Hear, hear.) members who have been criticising the slowdown in the There are suggestions that there are no new initiatives economy were criticising it as being overactive, being produced today rising out of this policy document. (Members: Hear, hear.) a very short time ago, and I just I would just say to that that I think it is right there are not. ask the question, who is really committed to economic Government is an on-going thing and when new initiatives growth? Is it those who are suggesting and criticising what happen, they should be put forward into the market place, is happening out there today or is it those who were put forward to their departments at the appropriate time. supporting the development of the economy two years ago There is no reason at all to save them up until policy when the opportunities were there? And I would suggest it document time or even until Budget time, and I think that was the latter. I said in my opening remarks it was difficult is something we need to look at. We need to get away from - no, it was impossible for Government to turn on the tap the thought of Budget being Christmastime, and I think the and produce more economic development just like that. work of Government is on-going, it is a development of What we need to do and what we did do two years ago was ideas, it is a development of policies. But there are new take the opportunities that were open to us and available initiatives, members of departments themselves have for this Island, and I think that that was a right thing to mentioned them during the course of the debate, and I do do. As I say, I think we just have to think a little bit about not think that those initiatives should be underestimated. who are the ones that are supportive of developing the There was also criticism about the data that is available economy in this Island in a real way. for Government on which to place its planning and its It is, I think, of little point in going through all the projections and so on. We accept that criticism. We share contributions that were made today, but one or two members in it, we make it ourselves. But that data is certainly did suggest that we should change the Marketing Acts. That improving and it is coming forward far quicker than it used would help agriculture. I would just say to those hon. to and we do not have to allow on as much historical data members that just to change the Marketing Acts would help as we used to, it is more up to date. But I have to say I agree no-one. What they need to do is to be sure of what they are with the hon. member for Glenfaba: there is little point in going to put back in their place, and that positive suggestion pouring vast resources after it just in order to get more up- certainly did not come over to me today. If it is a thought to-date and quicker figures. I believe the data we are getting that by doing away with the Agricultural Marketing Acts is improving, it is useful, and will continue to be improved; or changing them in some way you will get rid of the of that there is no doubt at all. monopolies that have grown up over the last decade or so, As far as tourism is concerned I am not going to try and it is not necessary in fact to disturb the Marketing Acts to respond to all the points made by the hon. member for East do that. For years those Marketing Acts were in place in Douglas, Mr. Delaney, and I know he would not expect me this Isle of Man and the Agricultural Marketing Society to. The suggestions that he has made will be looked at in touched not one product that was produced by the detail by the department, as will suggestions from other agricultural industry. So just to make easy comments like, members. As far as I am concerned I have a commitment `Change the Agricultural Marketing Acts.' means nought to tourism, it is publicly stated over and over again, but there unless members know what they are going to do in their place is no easy fix, there is no quick fix. We need to build a and what they are going to do when that legislation is product here for our tourists. We used to have one in the changed. shape of the sea and the sand. We know that product is not I am not going to apologise for a commitment to forward- acceptable any more, they go elsewhere for that. So we need planning. We have been criticised over and over again for to build a new product, and that we are doing. We have not doing enough of it. Under all the service headings in invested vast sums in national heritage which I believe will this policy document today are indications of forward- lead our tourism into the future. We need to improve the planning and what we are going to do when circumstances access to the Island, of that I have got no doubt, and I am are right. Hardly a mention of them. It is all right members sure that those who are involved in the carrying industry saying expenditure is too high, but nobody has suggested would also accept that, and we need to improve the where that expenditure should be trimmed back, nobody has marketing and the packaging of our tourist products. This suggested the agricultural services, the education services must be one of the few places in the world the tourist goes should not get the remuneration and resources that they on holiday and pays his fare with a cheque and pays his hotel require, nobody has suggested the health services should be with a cheque and does not have it all packaged into a neat trimmed back, nobody has suggested that our infrastructure little bundle paying Ex amount for the trip. I am absolutely should not be invested in. What we have said is all those convinced in my own mind that we are lacking in that area things are important. If we are not able to afford them all and we need to put more emphasis on it. The group of hotels rightaway there may be a need for phasing, but we have a that appear to be doing well against the backdrop of a tourist commitment to them, we have plans for them, and I think industry that is struggling does just that. I think we should that the departments in fact should be given a pat on the learn from success. back rather than criticised for it. As far as our expenditure and our revenue account are There was also a suggestion that because the service concerned, we see the lines on the graph coming closer headings take up more space in the policy document than together and in fact overlapping and so on. That is an honest that part committed to the development of the economy, presentation of the situation that is developing. We say quite the development of the economy takes second place. Nothing clearly in our document that that situation is not acceptable could be further from the truth, although I am not one to and expenditure or revenue need to be changed in order that say economic development at any cost, because I believe that we do not run into deficit budgeting for a number of years. our environment, I believe that our quality of life are very Again I have to say I agree with the hon. member for important, and we have to make sure that the economic Glenfaba, that there are times you have to dip into your development we attract to this Isle of Man is the sort of reserves. I hope that time is not yet. I say that quite clearly. development that we are comfortable with, that can be lived It seems to me that there are a heck of a lot of efficiencies

• Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried T64 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 and savings that can go on within Government before we business in general terms is worldwide, there are marketing need to get into that situation, but when that time does opportunities in the Community which we should not arrive, so be it. I hope it is a long way off, but if it does bypass. arrive, then we need to face up to it. Treasury is developing on an on-going basis its co- The central planning assumptions and Government operation with the private sector to ensure the Island is forecasts came in for some criticism from the hon. member represented at a wide selection of international seminars for Garff. All I can say to him is that the assumptions are covering a range of financial activities. Consideration is just that and they are not forecasts, and every time we talk being given to the creation of an international financial about the assumptions we make sure that people do not services centre as part of the Douglas 2000 project. accept them as forecasts because they are purely for planning Investigations are taking place in order to identify the purposes. necessary legislative and planning requirements for that to The figures for Government income that we have are not happen. based on the assumptions. They are based on the best Income tax legislation is being developed, such as the estimates we can get from our Treasury officials. That is Income Tax International Companies Bill, which could have where they come from. They are not wild guesses, they are substantial consequences in terms of new business for this not hazardous guesses. They are the best information that Island. There is partnership legislation and additional is available to us, and again we display that information prescribed Stock Exchange regulations. Our general profile honestly in the policy document for hon. members to take is being raised as a reputable offshore centre, and I think note of. that reputation is one of the things we should be proud of As far as the amendment is concerned, I just wonder how and we should be out there marketing because we are contrary we can get. It seems only a short time ago - it is reputable and it is very, very important. a few months now, I suppose - it was January when we Trust legislation is in the offing. It is in its infancy, there presented the policy document to this hon. Court, and is a deal of work to do on it, but it is there, it is being knowing that hon. members had just come in from the polls considered, and I am sure that we will find the right answer. and not been involved in its contents to any great extent we The Insurance Authority is continuing to develop its asked for that document to be received, and what did we products and it is also developing its marketing initiatives. find? An amendment from the Alternative Policy Group The Marine Administration is also going forward and we saying that it should be taken on board, it should be have now, as we know, Japanese ships on the register for accepted. Here we have a policy document that hon. the first time. There is international interest in that register members have participated in some way in, those that have and in the Isle of Man. Let us not dismiss easily what is been involved in departments and so on, and we put it on happening. the Agenda to be approved and we find ourselves with an amendment to receive it. What a load of nonsense. And with industry - a whole range of things that the hon. I would ask hon. members to approve the resolution as member for Glenfaba just touched on when he was on his it is on the Agenda Paper, but before that I would just like feet. They are happening, they are energetic, and there is to go through one or two points which should underline our interest in the Isle of Man. But it is difficult because at this commitment to economic growth. The hon. member sighs. moment in time industrialists are not in an expansionist I would suggest that it is of the utmost importance. frame of mind, they are contracting. The time to get new (Members: Hear, hear.) And I am afraid it is a repetition business is when they are expanding and those are the of what is said in the policy document but it is picked out, opportunities that we must not miss and we must not shy I hope, in a way that will draw members' attention to the away from because the Island is getting too busy. particular points that I am going to make. And so it goes on. We know about tourism, we know the As far as the finance sector is concerned in its broadest struggles they are having, we know about agriculture. But terms, and, as I said in my earlier remarks, we aggregate I would suggest that the Minister for Agriculture and his the finance sector when we talk about it usually, but colleague on the department are working, and it was Government is playing an increasing role in marketing the accepted by the hon. member Mr. Cringle when he spoke, Island and raising its profile. We are actively encouraging that there is now a feeling among the agriculturalists that and promoting the writing of articles in professional there is now support in Government for what they are trying international journals about this Island and its finance to do, and I think we owe to my hon. colleague a debt of sector, and that is not haphazard. It is a planned gratitude for that. programme, it is happening, and they are getting into There are good things happening, hon. members, but we professional offices and services. do have to remain competitive, we have to remain reputable, Special incentives have been developed to develop this and we have to give quality. Whatever we do in this Isle of Island as a location for fund management activities. In Man, whether it is tourism, industry, agriculture or finance, support of that the effective rate of taxation for those quality is the keynote because without it I believe we are lost. activities has been reduced from 20 per cent. down to 5 per Mr. President, I beg to move the resolution that is on the cent. The Financial Supervision Commission has been in Agenda Paper in my name and I ask hon. members to discussion with Japanese fund management authorities and support it in its entirety. has successfully negotiated special arrangements with those authorities. Representatives of the Financial Supervision The President: Hon. members, the resolution is set out Commission attend fund management conferences on a at item 7 on your Agenda Paper and to that resolution I regular basis and they have been to Dublin, to Bermuda and have an amendment in the name of the hon. member for to New York, and those initiatives are continuing. There are Michael which has been circulated to you on the white paper, initiatives taking place in Switzerland, in Hong Kong and and it should be clear as to what the resolution is: to omit in South Africa, and it is important that we do not just all words after '1992'. I will put the amendment first. Those dismiss the marketing opportunities that are available in the in favour of the amendment standing part of the resolution European Community, because although the source of our please say aye; against, no.

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th OCTOBER, 1992 T65

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: (AMENDMENT No.2) REGULATIONS 1992 - APPROVED, and amend the motion (line 43 on that paee In the Keys - and the references at the foot of pages T480 and T481 accordingly. For: Messrs. Cannan, Quine, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Duggan Tynwald Court, 7th July 1992, page T486, column 2, line and Delaney - 5 25, for '1991' please read '1992'.

Against: Messrs. Gilbey, North, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, Brown, May, Corlett, Cretney, Kermode, Downie, Mrs. Hannan, Messrs. Bell, Groves, Karran, Corkill, Waft, Gelling and the Speaker - 19

The Speaker: Mr. President, the amendment fails to carry in the House of Keys with 5 votes being recorded in favour and 19 against.

In the Council -

For: Nil

Against: Lord Bishop, Messrs. Lowey, Radcliffe, Quirk, Barton, Anderson, Callin, Irving and Luft - 9

The President: In the Council no votes have been cast in favour of the amendment and 9 votes against, the amendment therefore fails to carry. I will put the resolution as printed. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no.

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys -

For: Messrs. Gilbey, North, Walker, Corrin, Cringle, Brown, May, Corlett, Cretney, Kermode, Downie, Mrs. Hannan, Messrs. Bell, Groves, Karran, Corkill, Waft, Gelling and the Speaker - 19

Against: Messrs. Cannan, Quine, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Duggan and Delaney - 5

The Speaker: Mr. President, the motion carries in the House of Keys, with 19 votes recorded in favour and 5 against.

In the Council -

For: Lord Bishop, Messrs. Lowey, Radcliffe, Quirk, Barton, Anderson, Callin, Irving and Luft - 9

Against: Nil

The President: In the Council, hon. members, 9 votes have been cast in favour of the resolution, with no votes against, the resolution therefore carries. Hon. members, the Court will now adjourn and the adjournment will be until 10.30 tomorrow morning. Thank you.

The Court adjourned at 8.40 p.m.

CORRIGENDA

Tynwald Court (Vol. 109), 7th July 1992, page T480, col. 2, line 38, please replace the heading with BANKING BUSINESS (COMPENSATION OF DEPOSITORS)

Government Policy Debate 1992 — Debate Concluded —.Motion Carried • Corrigenda