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Attorney-General LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 26, 1978 Time: 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Gentlemen, come to order. We are innormed by Mr. McKenzie, who chaired this afternoon in my absence, that we are on 1.(b), Planning and Management, (1) Salaries- pass - the Member for Selkirk. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to deal in some general terms under Legal Aid with the Minister, because I believe when we deal with Legal Aid itself, that section, we should deal with detail, but in this case I would like to ask the Minister a question pertaining to policy. First, I would like to ask the Minister insofar as policy in the providing of Legal Aid services in Manitoba, whether that policy is determined in his government by the Board of Directors of Legal Aid or by government itself? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think to date the policy has been decided by the Board of Legal Aid. MR. PAWLEY: Is that to be the continued practice insofar as Legal Aid in Manitoba is concerned? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I think we're all aware of the changes that Legal Aid had made as the result of some reduced funding this year. Those changes have basically been in force since April 1st of this year and I would like, certainly prior to preparation of the Estimates next fall and hopefully much earlier, I to review with the Board of Legal Aid the experience that they have had in delivering Legal Aid services with their reduced funding. We have not yet received the budget for Legal Aid; we would like to receive that and I would like to review with them at the earliest opportunity possible, probably some time thisssummer or early fall, their experience with reduced funding in order to deal with the whole subject matter next year. MR. PAWLEY: Then I would like to ask the Minister if he could deal with one particular aspect of Legal Aid, and that is pertaining to the provision of Legal Aid services to juveniles in juvenile court. Is it correct that Legal Aid Services are not provided to juveniles facing charges in Juvenile Court even in the event that that juvenile may face a term of incarceration? I know that generally there's been a policy determination that Legal Aid Services will not be provided in Juvenile Court. But I'm asking the Attorney-General whether, in instances where incarceration is a real probability, whether Legal Aid is provided. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in the news release put out by Legal Aid, by the Chairman, they state: Legal Aid for Juvenile Court matters will be restricted to cases in which there is a likelihood, if the juvenile is found delinquent, of a committal to a juvenile institution or in cases in which the juvenile is liable to be transferred to an adult court. In addition, I am advised verbally by the Chairman of Legal Aid that he has instructed the executive director that he does not wish to have any hardship imposed upon anyone as a result of the positions taken by the Board of Legal Aid. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley is next on my list, and I might remind members we are on Planning and Management section of the Attorney-General's Estimates. The Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Well , under Planning and Management this afternoon, we were talking about the crystal-balling and the possible indication by the Minister of some of the priorities and 4339 Monday, June 26, 1978 wishes that he indicated he would like to see for the future. I'm sure that many of us have similar aspirations for our areas as well as the province as a whole, and I can't help but think of possibly the former Mayor, with his thoughts of a new aquarium, and of course the former Member for Elmwood, the new Autopac building. The Minister talked about a new Provincial Law Courts Building and a possible Provincial Judges Building. Now out of that Plannnng and Management, it seemed to me that I had to express a concern of one, that whenever you build anything new you have the maintenance costs and all the things that go with it, and I wondered at what point in time would the Minister be supplying for those of us who are not turned on to the priorities expressed by the Ministerr, if he could supply us with information that might help us reach a decision, possibly in concurrence with himself. I realize for years now the judges have expressed a desire to get out of the Public Safety Building - I stand to be corrected, you can correct me if I'm wrong - and I see nothing wrong and I wondered if you could possibly elaborate on the difficulties that are involved in having a courtroom in St. Boniface, three or four courtrooms in the Public Safety Building and of course, two to four courtrooms in the Law Courts Building. I wonder what some of the problems might be that would sort of demand that we centralize this particular function. I see certain advantages to it not being centralized and out of this grows a concern that has crime increased that much in Manitoba to go along with the seemingly number of unending appointments made to and for the addition of provincial judges. Does the Minister possibly envision a study to see if the former government maybe appointed far too many provincial judges and far too many part-time judges? If we in turn make appointments, then we would be increasing the amount of provincial judges, part-time and full-time, to an extent where we may be diluting the system so that judges really weren't doing a full day's work. Maybe they might only be handling one or two cases a day rather than four or five. Sometimes when a person has a very light workload, they spread the work over a week to make it appear as if they're overworked. I would like the rationalization for the new Provincial Judges Building. Would it not be better to renovate the present site of the Law Courts Building? Is this the intention of the Minister or are we talking ... The Member for Selkirk was talking about a new building. Would it really not be just renovating the present facility? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the process of consideration of a new Law Courts Building or a new Provincial Judges Building began some time ago. I believe it was 1964 under the then Attorney-General and now Premier. Unfortunately it hasn't progressed much further than planning. It might be interesting to note that in Manitoba our province has the lowest ratio of judges to population in Canada but there is, of course, still a concern that I have that the existing facilities and judges be used to the maximum possible degree of efficiency and we are certainly concerned with that and are continually reviewing that. The backlog of cases still continues to rise and I think there's approximately six to seven months time now but we are reviewing that and hopefully there may be some things that we are able to do to expedite the process but it's a problem that exists right across Canada. MR. WILSON: Well , before we get onto the rationalization of why we need a new Provincial Judges Building, I realize it started some years ago but we are in a period of restraint and it would seem to me that, in my humble opinion, a Provincial Judges Building and a new Law Courts Building would be very low on my particular ladder. But I wondered, you talk about the lowest rate of the judge per population, if one was to consider the fact that the former Corrections Minister, and indeed many people have talked about Manitoba having a very low crime rate, so it would seem to me it is very unfair for the provincial judges and their planners to equate Manitoba to Quebec and Ontario where you have a larger influx of industry and possibly unemployment. So, I'll leave it at that and await the Minister's material because if indeed he has not got any money in his Capital Works budget then we possibly would get some warning, because I would share the concern that the Cabinet wouldn't try to have a special warrant to create a new Law Courts Building when I have so many things that I think would take priority over that and I must at this time lobby for Misericordia Hospital and some of the work that needs to be done there. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can undertake to review the matter with the Member for Wolseley at a later date with respect to the rationalization for a new Provincial Judges Building. MR. CHAIRMAN: (bX1)-pass - the Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. Mr. Chairman, the Member for Selkirk was quizzing the Minister with respect to a recent Legal Aid withdrawal of service pertaining to youth access to the Legal Aid service and I understood that the Minister responded that where 4340 Monday, June 26, 1978 there was a demonstrated need, in other words, where there was some possibility of imminent incarceration, that Legal Aid was taking steps to intercede on behalf of the youth in question and provide defence services.
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