Y name is Lal Das. I was Interview appointed by the court as Mthe chief priest of Ramjanmabhoomi temple in 1983 and “I Wonder How I am Still Alive” continued in that position until March 1,1992. Before that I used to oversee Baba Lal Das interviewed by Madhu Kishwar the work of the Ramjanmabhoomi Seva Samiti. I was attending to the a few months before his murder court case [relating to the disputed site] from 1969 to 1983, before being appointed the chief priest. On paper I am still the chief priest. This appointment was made by the Government Receiver. Earlier, a magistrate or a judge used to be the Receiver. In 1992 the BJPgovernment removed me and appointed their own supporter as the priest there. Why did they do such a thing? Why did they feel that you would not work in their interest? The question of working in anyone’s interests did not arise. 1 was not under them. I was appointed by the court and the courts appoint an impartial person. Whatever they wanted from me and whatever expectations they had that I would work for them were not possible. What expectations did they have from you? How did they want you to work in their favour? They had two expectations, one Baba Lal Das that I should issue statements to the months, we would get about Rs 10,000 that we should tell all the visitors that press in their favour and second, that to Rs 12,000. On an average we the VHP owned the mandir because 1 should tell everyone that all income received about Rs 30,000 to Rs 35,000 they had already announced all over the Ramjanmabhoomi pujari receives a year. This was used for our India that they had rights over the belongs to the VHP. expenses. mandir. How much was received annually Did they want whatever money Since when did the VHP start as offerings? that came to go to them? coming to ? Initially it was not much. After the No, they were interested in From 1984 on wards. locks were opened, the amount of propaganda. What they wanted was Before that there was no offerings increased to between Rs 5 interference from them in Ayodhya? to Rs 10 lakhs a year. What they wanted was All the rioting and violence How much was received before that we should tell all the started in 1984. Before that there was the locks were opened? no dispute or trouble. There was a Before that, whatever used to visitors that the VHP owned small dispute in 1949 and both sides come used to be at the chabutara of the mandir because they had went to court to argue out their case. the akhara. People did not go inside already announced all over There was no fighting or slogan the mandir. When we opened the India that they had rights shouting on the roads, neither was donation boxes after five or six over the mandir. there any violence.

10 MANUSHI What happened in 1984 to cause on the streets to fight. But they did Congress. Right throughout till the them to suddenly remember this raise moral objections. demolition, the Congress has fully place? How did they do it? There have supported the BJP. Today also the BJP It all started at Sitamarhi in . not been many statements from them. has the full support of the Congress. There they took out a rath yatra to There are nearly 8,500 big and They have an internal arrangement— generate propaganda to get the locks small mandirs in Ayodhya. The press whatever the BJP does the Congress on the Ramjanmabhoomi opened. people come and meet a few people, supports. But to show the public that They got popular support and also a generally those who are in the they do not support the BJ P they lot of money. They got to realise that limelight. The Sadhu Samaj gave us make a big drama like the Ramlila. In they could make a lot of money out of moral support and protested against the Ramlila you bring Meghnad, this and also get publicity. So, with the VHP action, so did many members Ravan and Sita on the stage to show more money flowing in their of the public and political parties. the public a good drama. But behind programmes also went on increasing. Which politicalparties supported the curtain the actors are neither How did they remove you? you? Ravan nor Sita. Just in that manner, I was forcibly removed. It’s like We received support from the S all this drama is meant for public having some dacoits enter your home JP, Janta Dal, Janta(S) and the consumption. Behind the scenes both and take away everything. Bahujan Samaj Party. Only the BJP and Congress are one and the What about the police? Congress and the BJP were silent. same. What about them? The police was How come the Congress party did Supposing you were asked to on their side and the state government not support you even though you resolve the dispute in your personal was theirs. were appointed by their government? capacity, what steps would you have Did the other mahants of The Congress and the BJP have taken to settle the dispute? Ayodhya not protest about this? similar policies. What one does is Since the Muslims have never What can the mahants do? Those supported by the other. All the fought over it, the problem resolves who are on our side cannot come out troubles have been created by the itself. The Muslims had not used the

Baba Lal Das praying in the Ram Janamsthan Mandir

No.79 (November-December 1993) 11 since 1949. The Muslims was not constructed. Their slogans foundation stone there would be more of Faizabad did not even know where changed from that point onwards. violence. Then construction would be Babri Masjid was situated, leave They held processions all over India halted. After construction was halted, alone the Muslims from the rest of announcing that they would continue the Hindus would get angry and join India. Theolder generation of their fight as long as the mandir was their side in the dispute. Faizabad may have known where the not constructed. They also used a They started construction work Babri Masjid was but the younger slogan: “This is just for starters — after they laid the foundation stone. generations did not know anything Mathura and Kashi are yet to come.” Vir Bahadur Singh stopped the about it. The started (Abhi to yeh jhanki hai, Mathura construction work. Then the VHP propaganda to take revenge on the Kashi baki hai.) After this they announced that they had been descendants of Babar and to send started taking out processions in the prevented from building a mandir. them to Pakistan. Their propaganda Muslim dominated areas and started After that Rajiv Gandhi was killed. brought attention to the fact that Babri abusing them. The Muslims, who Then the elections were held. The Masjid existed in Ayodhya. It is they were in mourning, became upset at Congress formed the government at who united all the Muslims in India. these attacks. From February 7, 1986 the Centre and the BJP in Uttar When they brought the Muslims riots started. Pradesh. That the Congress and BJP together, the Muslims gave the One result of these riots was that have a common programme was not expected reaction that it was a royal many Hindus were attacked in known to the common man. The masjid and that it should not be Kashmir. The state government was Indian public could not see through touched while there was a case going dismissed in Kashmir as a result of the BJP-Congress deceptions as they on in the courts over it. The Muslims the riots. Elections have not been would alternately blow hot and cold. did not come out in the streets to fight held in Kashmir ever since then. Even The lock was not put on because over it till they were attacked openly. now there is governor’s rule in of anyone’s order. The lock was put On February 1,1986 the district Kashmir. on in 1971. It was not locked in 1949. court ordered the locks opened. The When the riots broke out on The legal aspect of this situation was BJP-VHP rathyatra processions had February 7 and continued till that the place was in charge of a to be cancelled. They were silent till February 20-22, the rath yatras were “Receiver.” The food was cooked in February 7, wondering what to do, as stopped by the then chief minister Vir the kitchen of the Ram Chabutra. The their source of income had dried up. Bahadur Singh. It was a Congress sentry would open the lock for the They used to collect a lot of money government then. When the locks bhog (food offering to deities). through the rath yatra; the villagers were opened on the orders of the In 1971, Priya Dutt Ram, who was used to pay for getting the mandir central government, Vir Bahadur the Receiver, expired. There was a opened. Now that the mandir was stopped the processions. Otherwise dispute between the new Receiver unlocked, what should they do? there would have been more and the Nirmohi Akhara. The police Did the Muslims not create any violence. After the locks had been intervened, put their own lock on, and trouble in all this time? opened, the VHP started a campaign kept the key. The sentry on duty was No, they were mourning, but they to lay the foundation stone for the changed; he handed over the key to did not come out on the streets. They construction of the mandir at the the new sentry. There were two doors. were fighting a legal battle in the disputed spot. One door used to remain open for courts. They never showed their real bhog offering and prayers. This There was a meeting in Lucknow intentions. In their affidavit to the system was continuing. The BJP and on February 6,1986. At this meeting, government they announced that the VHP found a very good the VHP decided that the they would only lay the foundation opportunity in this to publicise and establishment of a mandir on the stone of the mandir on three feet of propagate their ideas and then the disputed site was the basis of their land. They claimed they would not other lock was taken off. So it was not movement. They had already gotten disturb anything else; they would not that the place was completely locked. a lot of money and political mileage destroy or cause any harm to the Only from the point of view of security out of the dispute. They now called disputed structure; there would be no was the place locked at times. for the construction of a mandir, and violence of any kind. But their real It could have been opened announced that their struggle would intentions were different. Their without fanfare and all the continue for as long as the mandir thinking was that after they laid the propaganda on TV.

12 MANUSHI It was all done for political gains. Dr Golwalkar has written in his I think that a grand Ram Mandir They have no love for Ram, these book that the biggest mistake of the must be constructed. Ayodhya is a people from the RSS, Bajrang Dal, Hindus is that they think of Ram and city of mandirs. In Ayodhya, Ram Vidyarthi Parishad, Shiv Sena and so Krishna as gods. If, according to him, Mandirs are everywhere. on. These people are of the Arya this is the Hindu’s biggest mistake, Is there need for one more mandir Samaji faith, they do not believe in then it is clear that they think of Ram when there are already over 8,000 idol worship. But because they were and Krishna as ordinary mortals. mandirs there? getting a lot of money and political Whenever they talk of Ram they The question is that of a gain, they whipped up Hindu always say Bhagwan Ram. Ramjanmabhoomi Mandir. Ayodhya sentiments. In the entire history of the All that is just play acting, as I is a city of 8,500 mandirs. The RSS they have not constructed a have already told you. Muslims have never objected to the single mandir anywhere in India. If you say that Ram is God, how construction of a new Ram Mandir Our flag of the Devi is hexagonal can he have a birthplace? although 42 acres of land adjacent to and flags over the mandirs of Ram or Whether this is so or not is a the disputed site are even now Krishna have the symbol of subject of intellectual debate, I do not recorded as a Muslim graveyard Hanuman. Their saffron colour flag is want to go into that. It is a matter of (kabristan) in the books of the not a symbol of the Vaishnavs but of belief; we treat them as gods and they revenue department. the Arya Samajis. Om is part of our treat them as ordinary mortals. But the Babri Masjid also comes mantras also, but they have made Om You said earlier that there was in the disputed area. the basis of everything, setting aside no dispute about the mandir at all. That is part of the dispute. But the all the mantras. Thus the way we pray When I asked you how you would whole area is recorded as a has no similarity with the way they resolve the crisis, you said that this graveyard. Eight mandirs were pray. They consider Ram to be human dispute is an artificial crisis. Are you constructed in the graveyard after while we think of Him as a Brahm in favour of this campaign that has 1949. They were demolished by the (God). We consider Krishna to be been started to construct the Ram BJP, who wanted to show the people God, they think of him as a man. Mandir there? that they were doing something.

No.79 (November-December 1993) 13 Demolishing a mandir is not “There is no difference But you said that you had all the considered to be a good thing, between them and accounts. That is, only if they believe in Ram. Khalistanis. The Khalistanis I know about the money received But as they do not believe in Ram .... want totalcontrol over from Germany and I know that Was there no protest in Ayodhya? Ramchandra Paramhansa took Rs 30 There was a lot of protest. They Punjab. The RSS wants total lakh as commission. Then only did he demolished eight mandirs, including dictatorial control over sign an authorisation to let the BJP the Sakshi Gopal Mandir, Hanuman Hindu society.They want withdraw the money before the Mandir and Keshavdas Mandir. people to agree to whatever elections. They withdrew the money All these were recent they say.” from here and deposited it in other constructions? banks. Most were recently constructed. The money collected for the Sakshi Gopal was an ancient mandir. Muslims. Things were going on Ramjanmabhoomi was withdrawn and The ancient mandir, Sita ki Rasoi, was smoothly; there was no deposited in banks in Delhi and used destroyed by them during the kar discrimination. In fact, for the last 40 for the elections. seva on December 6. years the manager of one of the How much annual income are The Muslims never objected to mandirs (Mangal Bhavan) is a they getting now? the construction of mandirs in their Muslim. They have no income from the graveyard; rather, they had willingly In Ayodhya there was peace Ramjanmabhoomi at the moment as it handed over the land to the maths in between the Hindus and the Muslims. is under thecontrol of the government. Ayodhya. In that area behind the People from outside have created the But aren’t they still collecting Janambhoomi there is a Shanti rift. For them the issue proved to be money all over the country in the Bhavan and next to it is a temple. The one which could arouse passions and name of the Ramjanmabhoomi ? area was given willingly by the create a rift between the Hindus and All the capitalists like Tata, Birla, Muslims to the Hindus to construct the Muslims. For them it was an Dalmia are giving them a lot of money. their temples. They may have received opportunity to unite the Hindu votes They give them money because they some compensation but the fact behind them—they wanted to form want the problem to continue so that remains that the land was given their own government even though it public attention is diverted from the willingly by the Muslims to the meant a holocaust which may ruin the real issues and they can keep making Hindus. There was no dispute at all country. They were not concerned money the way they want to. between the two communities over about the consequences. They had In the film Ram Ke Naam in the the construction of these mandirs in only one aim—votes. interview with you, you were told the graveyard. Whatever dispute This money that they have that you sound like a communist. existed was being sorted out in court. collected in the name of the Is speaking the truth speaking like They never objected to our praying Ramjanmabhoomi Mandir, some say a communist? I am just saying what at the disputed site. it is Rs 800 crores. Is there any is actually happening. How many Muslims are there in account of that? The VHP has removed you and this area? I have all the documents and forcibly taken over the mandir; In Faizabad and Ayodhya the total proofs. The VHP had an office near similarly, it is said that they have population would be around 1.25 to the Bharat Sadhu Samaj. They removed many mahants from the 1.30 lakhs. In Faizabad, the Muslims received Rs 21 million from West mandirs in Ayodhya and installed would be 25 to 30 percent. In Ayodhya Germany. Apart from that they their goons in their place. Is it true? there would be around 5,000 Muslims. received bricks of gold and silver. This is true. Not only in Ayodhya, There has never been any dispute or Hindu families all over India donated but their idea was that everywhere in quarrel with the Muslims. In fact there money to them. They have collected India, wherever there is a big mandir was a great deal of cooperation from hundreds of crores of rupees, divided or math, they intend to send their men the Muslims in the maintenance of the money before the 1991 elections to take over the mandirs and maths the mandir. They owned flower .... so that their writ runs everywhere. gardens and they sold flowers to the What would be the total amount? How did they take over the mandirs. Other ingredients required The total can be found out from mandirs? for prayers were also provided by the the banks here. First of all the VHP and RSS people

14 MANUSHI asked for places to stay. They said “I hate all political parties or toe their line is murdered. they were working for a Hindu society. because they are the root of In the last two years how many People here are not so shrewd or all our problems.” mahants have been murdered? clever so they gave them a room to At least 50 to 60 mahants have stay. After that one by one they been murdered, such as the mahant started bringing in more of their What would be the solution to of the big cantonment, Ram Pratap workers into the mandirs and maths. this problem according to you? Das, Maithli Sharan of Jana ki ghat. Since we don’t have family dynasties Both Congress and the BJP should Bajrangdas at Hanumangarhi was but a guru tradition, they chose one keep quiet and stay out of this. We murdered some time ago. Recently of their own disciples, made him the the people of Ayodhya and Faizabad many people have been murdered. together will resolve the matter. The mahant and threw out the original How many people can one name? mandir will be constructed and the mahant. There should be some list Muslims will not object. This could have been done only somewhere. Were you in favour of demolishing I have a list. I cannot remember if the guru agreed. the Babri Masjid? the names without the list. Every There is no consent of the guru; No, not at all. week there are murders—if not every it’s all happening on the basis of You felt that without demolishing week, every month. I wonder how a force. The gurus have been thrown it a mandir could have been out on the streets; no one is constructed? person like me is still alive. concerned about them. For these The mandir was already there. Yes, it is a wonder that they have people there is neither God nor guru Prayers were being offered while the left you alive after what you said (na guru, na Gobind). What can the court case was going on which was about them in public. gurus do? The police will not listen to dragged on by the government. They I am alive by the grace of God. them; they can’t get justice. wanted to keep the issue alive because They have tried to do everything to Out of the 8,500 mandirs, how at any lime they could raise it and start kill me. They have attacked my home, many have they taken over? riots. taken away my land and house. They I know of eight mandirs they took Is it true that murders are have thrown bombs at my house and over just as they took over the routinely taking place in Ayodhya ? tried to burn it. They have tried all janamsthaan. This is all their doing. They have methods to destroy me. Vinay Katiyar There was no internal resistance goons and murderers on their side. of the VHP even organised a yagna over this? Any mahant who does not obey them to kill me. Who will protest? Lakhs are protesting against Khalistanis but what is happening? These people are another incarnation of the Khalistanis. What similarity do you see between them and Khalistanis? There is no differ- ence between them and Khalistanis.The Khalistanis want total control over Punjab. The RSS wants total dictatorial control over Hindu society. They

want people to agree to India Today whatever they say. Ramjanambhoomi Mandir

No.79 (November-December 1993) 15 Was this agricultural land? country, if the system does not for the farmers. He worked for the No, it was land to build a house change fully, if the IAS and PCS interests of the poor and the farmers. on. I am staying in someone else’s people remain here the total He did a lot—like waiving agricultural house. revolution that Jaiprakash Narayan loans upto Rs 11,000 and removing What are you doing these days? had spoken about cannot occur; India octroi. The things that farmers needed I am looking after the mandir of cannot change without these things were made available at cheap rates. the riyasat. happening first. In case he comes back to power, You mean the government? Why do you want to abolish the will this problem be solved? No, not the government, the IAS and the PCS? Until a different government is erstwhile king. Because the the IAS and PCS formed at the Centre, how can the Do you have a leaning towards think they rule the country. The any political party? thinking amongst them is: “While we problem be solved? The condition of I have no leaning towards any are in service, we rule the country, and the mandirs depends on the people political party. I hate all political after we retire, we should get a ticket who control them. If they are corrupt, parties because they are the root of from the BJP or Congress so we can the mandirs will perish; if they are all our problems. rule again.” Their wish is that from honest, mandirs will improve. In your eyes is there any party childhood to their death they should What do you feel about the that would reduce tensions? be the rulers. They want money and politicisation of the mandirs in the I don’t see any such party. power. Both the Congress and the BJP last 50 years or so? Not even the communists? have money and power. The capitalists Earlier thoughtful people used to The communists have also are providing the money to these come to the Sadhu Samaj, good become corrupt. parties. The common man, the worker, people who had become tired of this / had read in the newspapers the peasant has still not been able to material world and wanted to devote that the communist MP from understand why we have the vote. It their thoughts to prayers. They stayed Faizabad had done a lot of good in is fools like me who have understood away from jealousy and hatred. Today Ayodhya. this. society has become such that on the He is a sinner. In this moment of Did the Mulayam Singh one hand there are these so called crisis he never issued a statement government do any good, in your followers of BJP who want to bring that what is happening is wrong. He opinion? about Ramrajya through bloodshed did not even go to the Muslims. He The Mulayam Singh government and on the other hand you have the did not go to anyone—neither the did its duty well. If I had been in his Sadhu Samaj which is becoming the Hindus nor the Muslims. He is MP place I would have done more. By home of criminals. Until the time there only of the Ahirs and Yadavs, not of more I mean that I would have had so are good people in them there is no the whole region. many bullets fired that people would chance for improving political parties Have the Muslims whose houses not have dared to raise their eyes. He or mandirs. were burnt down returned to was a fool — he got scared. If I had How will people improve? Ayodhya? Most of them have been the chief minister in his place, I When there is change in society, returned. would have had thousands of people when there is a total revolution, when How is the situation now? killed so that they would not have the system changes, only then will The situation is still not good. dared to look towards Ayodhya people change. They are still unprotected. They will during their lifetimes. remain insecure as long there is Do you see any chance of Congress rule. Mulayam Singh coming back to Along interview with Will they be unprotected even power? under the BJP? It is possible. Baba Lal Das is included Yes, even then they will be What about the hatred the Hindus in ’s unprotected. have towards him? film, Ram Ke Naam. A What should be done? Should we Where was the hatred among the video cassette of thisfilm is banish the Congress and BJP for a Hindus? It was all a creation of available for Rs 350 from: hundred years? propaganda. Even today the people If the Congress and BJP are not of Uttar Pradesh realise that Mulayam P.O.Box No. 5216 Dadar removed by their roots from this Singh was a good person. He worked (E), Bombay 400 014

16 MANUSHI