4th Session, 37th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF

DEBATES OF THE

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

()

Wednesday, April 30, 2003

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 14, Number 12

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable

4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries...... Hon. Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations...... Hon. Minister of Children and Family Development...... Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development...... Hon. Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter...... Hon. Minister of State for Women's Equality ...... Hon. Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ...... Hon. Minister of State for Deregulation ...... Hon. Minister of Energy and Mines...... Hon. Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ...... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning ...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Minister of State for Mental Health ...... Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ...... Hon. Minister of Human Resources...... Hon. Minister of Management Services...... Hon. Minister of Provincial Revenue...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Skills Development and Labour...... Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management...... Hon. Minister of Transportation...... Hon. Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker...... John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ...... Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... E. George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...... Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...... Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian...... Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ...... Peter Bray

Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria. Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard

In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L) ...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Clayburn...... Hon. John van Dongen Anderson, Val J. (L)...... -Langara Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ...... Hon. Michael de Jong Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton–Okanagan Valley Alberni-Qualicum...... Gillian Trumper Bell, Pat (L)...... Prince George North Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...... Dennis MacKay Belsey, Bill (L)...... North Coast North...... Richard T. Lee Bennett, Bill (L) ...... East Kootenay Burnaby-Edmonds...... Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ...... Surrey-Newton Burnaby-Willingdon...... John Nuraney Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burquitlam Burquitlam ...... Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Mount Robson Cariboo North ...... John Wilson Bray, Jeff (L)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Cariboo South ...... Walt Cobb Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...... Surrey-Whalley -Kent ...... Brice, Susan (L) ...... Saanich South Chilliwack-Sumas ...... Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)...... Cowichan-Ladysmith Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Wendy McMahon Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Comox Valley ...... Hon. Stan Hagen Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ...... Surrey–Panorama Ridge Coquitlam-Maillardville ...... Richard Stewart Chong, Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Cowichan-Ladysmith ...... Hon. Graham P. Bruce Christensen, Tom (L) ...... Okanagan-Vernon Delta North...... Reni Masi Chutter, Dave (L) ...... Yale-Lillooet Delta South...... Valerie Roddick Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ...... Port Moody–Westwood East Kootenay ...... Cobb, Walt (L) ...... Cariboo South Esquimalt-Metchosin...... Arnie Hamilton Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Kamloops ...... Hon. Claude Richmond Collins, Hon. Gary (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Kamloops–North Thompson ...... de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)...... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman –Lake Country...... John Weisbeck Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Sindi Hawkins Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ...... Comox Valley Langley ...... Hon. Lynn Stephens Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ...... Richmond Centre Malahat–Juan de Fuca ...... Brian J. Kerr Hamilton, Arnie (L)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Ken Stewart Harris, Roger (L)...... Skeena Nanaimo...... Mike Hunter Hawes, Randy (L) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Nanaimo-Parksville...... Hon. Judith Reid Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Blair F. Suffredine Hayer, Dave S. (L) ...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster ...... Hon. Joyce Murray Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Coast ...... Bill Belsey Hunter, Mike (L) ...... Nanaimo North Island...... Rod Visser Jarvis, Daniel (L)...... –Seymour North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Katherine Whittred Johnston, Ken (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Vancouver–Seymour...... Daniel Jarvis Kerr, Brian J. (L)...... Malahat–Juan de Fuca Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Krueger, Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Okanagan-Vernon ...... Tom Christensen Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Okanagan-Westside...... Hon. Rick Thorpe Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Peace River North ...... Hon. Richard Neufeld Lekstrom, Blair (L)...... Peace River South ...... Les, John (L) ...... Chilliwack-Sumas Penticton–Okanagan Valley ...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Locke, Brenda (L) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Karn Manhas Long, Harold (L) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Port Moody–Westwood...... Hon. Christy Clark MacKay, Dennis (L)...... Bulkley Valley–Stikine Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Harold Long McMahon, Wendy (L)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Prince George North...... MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Prince George–Mount Robson...... Hon. Shirley Bond Manhas, Karn (L) ...... Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Prince George–Omineca...... Paul Nettleton Masi, Reni (L) ...... Delta North Richmond Centre...... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ...... Vancouver-Burrard ...... Hon. Linda Reid Murray, Hon. Joyce (L)...... New Westminster Richmond-Steveston ...... Hon. Geoff Plant Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) ...... –Garibaldi Saanich North and the Islands ...... Hon. Murray Coell Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)...... Prince George–Omineca Saanich South...... Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L)...... Peace River North Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott Nijjar, Rob (L)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Skeena...... Roger Harris Nuraney, John (L) ...... Burnaby-Willingdon Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Orr, Sheila (L) ...... Victoria-Hillside Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Penner, Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Kent Surrey-Newton ...... Tony Bhullar Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ...... Richmond-Steveston Surrey–Panorama Ridge...... Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Reid, Hon. Judith (L)...... Nanaimo-Parksville Surrey-Tynehead ...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley ...... Elayne Brenzinger Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ...... Kamloops Surrey–White Rock ...... Hon. Gordon Hogg Roddick, Valerie (L)...... Delta South Vancouver-Burrard...... Lorne Mayencourt Sahota, Patty (L)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Gary Collins Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)...... West Kootenay–Boundary Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Ken Johnston Stephens, Hon. Lynn (L) ...... Langley Vancouver-Hastings ...... Joy MacPhail Stewart, Ken (L)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Kensington...... Stewart, Richard (L)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vancouver-Kingsway...... Rob Nijjar Suffredine, Blair F. (L)...... Nelson-Creston Vancouver-Langara...... Val J. Anderson Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L)...... Okanagan-Westside Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Trumper, Gillian (L)...... Alberni-Qualicum Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ...... Abbotsford-Clayburn Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Jeff Bray Visser, Rod (L)...... North Island Victoria-Hillside...... Sheila Orr Weisbeck, John (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country West Kootenay–Boundary...... Hon. Sandy Santori Whittred, Hon. Katherine (L) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Wilson, John (L)...... Cariboo North West Vancouver–Garibaldi ...... Hon. Ted Nebbeling Wong, Patrick (L)...... Vancouver-Kensington Yale-Lillooet ...... Dave Chutter

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2.

CONTENTS

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 Afternoon Sitting

Routine Proceedings

Page

Introductions by Members...... 6349

Tributes...... 6349 Clem Chapple Hon. G. Campbell J. MacPhail

Introduction and First Reading of Bills ...... 6350 Industry Training Authority Act (Bill 34) Hon. S. Bond Personal Information Protection Act (Bill 38) Hon. S. Santori

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 6351 Women's hockey championship D. Hayer I. Chong National Volunteer Week H. Bloy

Oral Questions...... 6352 Fair Pharmacare registration J. MacPhail Hon. C. Hansen Infant mortality rate S. Orr Hon. S. Hawkins Barkerville historic site J. Wilson Hon. G. Abbott Long-term care beds in Powell River area H. Long Hon. K. Whittred Fair Pharmacare registration J. MacPhail

Reports from Committees ...... 6355 Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills

Petitions ...... 6355 J. MacPhail

Motions on Notice...... 6355 Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform (Motion 99) Hon. G. Campbell J. MacPhail P. Nettleton Hon. G. Plant J. Bray Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt M. Hunter P. Bell B. Suffredine B. Bennett Hon. M. de Jong R. Sultan G. Trumper Hon. G. Cheema Appointment of Special Committee on Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform (Motion 100) Hon. G. Plant

Committee of Supply...... 6374 Estimates: Ministry of Attorney General and Ministry Responsible for Treaty Negotiations (continued) T. Christensen Hon. G. Plant R. Lee J. MacPhail

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 6395 Estimates: Ministry of Advanced Education (continued) Hon. S. Bond J. MacPhail L. Mayencourt J. Les S. Brice

6349

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 thanks for his service. I would hope that the House and you, Mr. Speaker, will let the Chapple family know The House met at 2:03 p.m. that we, too, share their loss and send them our condo- lences. Prayers. Mr. Speaker: We will. So ordered. Introductions by Members J. MacPhail: I would like to join with the Premier Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, it was my distinct and all members of the Legislature in not only mourn- pleasure today to meet with the Order of British Co- ing the passing of Mr. Chapple but also celebrating his lumbia Advisory Council membership. We had a very long career. wonderful meeting today and a lunch and came to The Premier is quite right. Mr. Chapple was proba- some marvellous conclusions. bly the introductory member of the gallery to many of I would like to introduce the members: the chair- us in politics. He certainly was in my case. When I first man of the committee, the Hon. Lance S.G. Finch, Chief entered the public domain of politics, Clem Chapple Justice of British Columbia; Dr. David H. Turpin, was the first person to interview me, and I was ex- president and vice-chancellor of the University of Vic- tremely nervous. He was a huge presence, both physi- toria; Ms. Patricia Wallace, president, Union of B.C. cally and from an intelligence point of view. I had a Municipalities, and a councillor from the great city of person with me, and I introduced the reporter to this Kamloops; , deputy minister, inter- person as "Chem Clapple." I was just so nervous. Of governmental relations secretariat; Patsy George, Or- course, as was his way of doing things, he actually re- der of B.C.; and Gian Singh Sandhu, Order of B.C. ported that on TV as well. My career has never recov- Would the House please make them welcome. ered from that. So I want to get it right. [1405] Clem, we miss you greatly, and I join with the Pre- mier and all members of the government caucus in Hon. G. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that one mourning your passing. of the things you agreed with during your discussions at lunch was that there's an awful lot of exceptional Introductions by Members British Columbians out there who you're all going to have to file through. I want to say thank you to both R. Hawes: This morning the British Columbia As- the Speaker and the members of the advisory council sociation of Optometrists met with a number of mem- for the work they're doing. bers of the Legislature and demonstrated a program they've put together for preschoolers that would show Tributes the importance of eye-testing, early eye-testing, for children. In fact, it's quite astonishing. They pointed CLEM CHAPPLE out that up to one in five young children has vision problems that are, in some cases, misdiagnosed as be- Hon. G. Campbell: It's with regret that I inform the havioral problems or, at times, attention deficit disor- House today of the passing of Clem Chapple. I first der. met Clem back in the early seventies when I was work- The program they've put together is a wonderful ing as executive assistant for the mayor of Vancouver program. They've done it on their own initiative and and he was at work in the media. In the sixties he should be congratulated for that. started off with the Victoria Times as a reporter, but he [1410] really spent the vast majority of his time and his work- In the precincts today from the British Columbia ing life as a reporter for BCTV, and he was, indeed, the Association of Optometrists…. Unlike the introduction Victoria bureau chief from 1981 to 1984. the other day when they weren't here, today they are. Clem was struck with cancer. All of us who knew They are led by Dr. John Gentles, president of the asso- him and who had associations with him were hopeful ciation; Dr. Mary Lou Riederer, vice-president; Dr. Paul that his cancer had, in fact, gone into remission and Geneau, past president; Dr. Joan Hansen, president- was permanently gone. Unfortunately, he has just suc- elect of the Canadian Association of Optometrists; Dr. cumbed, after a lengthy battle with that disease. Paul Neumann; Dr. Michael Kellam; Dr. Lorie Bradley; He is survived by his son Julius and by his daugh- and Cheryl Williams, the chief executive officer of the ter, Alexandra. I know there are many times when association. Could the House please make them wel- those of us who are in this House or in public life look come. at members of the media and forget they've got fami- lies as all the rest of us do, but Clem does. Hon. G. Plant: We're joined on the floor this after- He served a real service to the public in British Co- noon by a former member of this assembly who repre- lumbia with years of reporting on the issues of the day sented the great city of Richmond some years back and in a way that was forthright and informative. I know who, in his life since politics, has developed a signifi- that his family will miss him. Certainly, our prayers cant reputation and expertise as a political scientist and our hopes go out to Clem Chapple's family. Our with particular interest in electoral reform. He's here to

6350 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 watch the debate this afternoon. He may probably be Hong Kong and Mexico. Joining them is their teacher, hoping in some way that he could participate in it, but Mrs. Sharon Douglas, as well as many parent volun- we'll have to hold him back from that. I hope that all teers who have taken time out of their busy schedule to members of the House will join me in extending a very accompany these students. Would the House please warm welcome to Nick Loenen. make them very welcome. [1415] Hon. L. Reid: I want to join with my colleague from Maple Ridge–Mission and acknowledge and, hope- J. MacPhail: We always have interesting people fully, encourage parents of youngsters in our province dropping by our offices. Today relatives of one of our — two- and three-year-olds — to absolutely go and staff dropped by, and they are in the chamber. Irving seek the early vision screening. Dr. Joan Hansen is in Sommerville and his wife Mabel and daughter, Sandra, the audience today, and she in fact performed that for are relations of one of our staff members. Sandra actu- my little girl at the age of two. It is an amazing gift that ally worked for Cyril Keeper, who was an NDP MP you can give very young children, which will indeed from . Would the House please make them have a benefit in the school system of British Columbia. welcome. If I could encourage members of this House, their ex- tended families and members of the British Columbia Introduction and populace to seek that service, it would be a benefit to First Reading of Bills all British Columbians. INDUSTRY TRAINING AUTHORITY ACT Hon. S. Bond: I'd like to ask the House to join me today in welcoming a number of guests to the gallery: Hon. S. Bond presented a message from His Hon- first of all, from my staff, Stuart Clark, the director of our the Administrator: a bill intituled Industry Train- industry training; Mr. Jim Utley, the vice-president of ing Authority Act. human resources for Teck Cominco Ltd.; Eric Gerrits, the president of the Canadian Home Builders Associa- tion of British Columbia; and Bob Clarke, the executive Hon. S. Bond: I move that Bill 34 be read a first director of the Automotive Retailers Association. time now. Mr. Utley is a member of our industry training ad- visory committee, and Mr. Gerrits's and Mr. Clarke's Motion approved. associations are both partners in two dynamic pilot projects that will lead to innovative industry training in Hon. S. Bond: After careful review of the Industry British Columbia. I'd like you to help me in welcoming Training and Apprenticeship Commission, we believe them and thanking them for the work that they have that a new model is needed to govern the industry provided and the input into the projects that have been training and apprenticeship system in British Colum- created. bia, a system that provides individual trainees with training opportunities that lead to employment and D. MacKay: I take pleasure today in standing and addresses skill shortages and meets employer demand introducing a friend of our family for the past 35 years for skilled workers. and the man who delivered both my children. I'd like The Industry Training Authority Act, which en- the House to please give a warm welcome to Dr. Peter ables the establishment of this new training model, Culbert from Williams Lake. implements recommendations contained in the discus- sion paper entitled A New Model for Industry Training in V. Roddick: I have two exciting introductions to British Columbia. This discussion paper, which was make today on behalf of Delta South. The Ladner prepared by government working with the Industry Footmen, members of the Delta Field Lacrosse Associa- Transition Advisory Committee, was the basis of broad tion, coached by Vic Clayman and Clayton Bennett, consultation in January and February of 2003 through won their first-ever provincial championship, to be eight regional forums. Many of the participants at the followed by the Tsawwassen Extreme girls soccer forums agreed that changes to the current industry team, who scored a major victory at the Gordon Head training system are necessary. Their suggestions and tournament in Victoria, playing what their coaches Jeff concerns have been helpful in shaping the new model Irving and Martin Ray described as "the perfect game." for industry training and apprenticeship in British Co- The depth of the Extreme lineup was displayed by nine lumbia. different players scoring in a 10-0 win against Victoria. The Industry Training Authority Act establishes the Will the House give both teams well-deserved con- Industry Training Authority, which will be responsible gratulations. for increasing the quality and quantity of training in British Columbia in order to address current and pro- D. Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 27 jected shortages. The act contains general enabling grade 5 students from Pacific Academy in my constitu- powers of the authority which will allow for the estab- ency of Surrey-Tynehead and also ten grade 9 interna- lishment of a more flexible and innovative industry tional students coming all the way from Korea, Taiwan, training and apprenticeship system with new mecha-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6351 nisms for skills development, assessment of skills and tronic commerce. This bill will help to reassure British knowledge, and the granting of credentials. Columbians that their personal information is pro- The minister's powers to make regulations will al- tected when they participate in electronic transactions. low for the designation of training programs that meet This bill will also ensure that British Columbia is provincial, interprovincial or national standards and able to take advantage of international trade opportu- will ensure the recognition of interprovincial Red Seal nities. The European Union, for example, may not al- trade credentials which facilitate interprovincial labour low trade with B.C. companies involving personal in- mobility. The new governance structure and service formation if the province does not have its own act, delivery system that are provided for by this act will because of the gaps in coverage left if B.C. is covered assure an industry-led system that is responsive to under the federal act. trainees and employers' needs as well as to economic This bill also responds to 92 percent of British Co- change. lumbians surveyed who want this legislation and is in I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the keeping with the overwhelming consensus of the over day for second reading at the next sitting of the House 150 B.C. business organizations or groups consulted after today. that do not want to be covered by the federal act. This bill minimizes the impact of privacy regulation on the Bill 34 introduced, read a first time and ordered to B.C. private sector by creating less regulation and be placed on orders of the day for second reading at clearer regulation than the federal legislation — im- the next sitting of the House after today. portant for small and medium-sized provincial busi- nesses. PERSONAL INFORMATION It ensures provincial control over this important PROTECTION ACT aspect of the B.C. economy, avoiding both federal regu- lation and oversight. It promotes harmonization with Hon. S. Santori presented a message from Her other jurisdictions by providing a model provincial Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Per- statute that other jurisdictions can copy. It provides an sonal Information Protection Act. essential foundation for electronic commerce and in- ternational trade by ensuring that British Columbia is Hon. S. Santori: I move that Bill 38 be introduced in compliance with international standards for data and read a first time now. protection, and it represents the culmination of exten- sive consultations incorporating private sector input in Motion approved. striking a balance between the public's strong desire to protect its personal information and the need for busi- Hon. S. Santori: This government is committed to ness to use personal information for legitimate busi- ensuring that the B.C. private sector is positioned to ness purposes. take full advantage of commercial opportunities, espe- Hon. Speaker, I move that Bill 38 be placed on the cially in electronic commerce. This government is also orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting dedicated, in its strategic plan, to removing barriers to of the House after today. business. As part of those commitments and the province's Bill 38 introduced, read a first time and ordered to leadership in protecting the personal information of be placed on orders of the day for second reading at British Columbians, I am pleased to introduce the the next sitting of the House after today. Personal Information Protection Act. This bill is im- portant for British Columbia for a number of impor- Statements tant reasons, but certainly there is no reason more important to British Columbia business than provid- (Standing Order 25B) ing a plain-language, easy-to-implement alternative to the confusing and cumbersome federal private sec- WOMEN'S HOCKEY CHAMPIONSHIP tor privacy act that will cover British Columbia in January 2004 if the province does not pass its own D. Hayer: I want to say how proud I am of the Van- legislation. couver Canucks and how exciting they are making the [1420] Stanley Cup playoffs. But, you know, the hockey ex- By retaining provincial jurisdiction over this impor- citement has not been confined to GM Place and the tant aspect of provincial commercial activity, this bill Stanley Cup. Back in my riding of Surrey-Tynehead we will reduce the regulatory burden for the B.C. private hosted the Western Shield women's hockey champion- sector, fill in significant gaps left by the federal act and ship, and these playoffs were also very exciting. We provide provincial oversight instead of oversight by a had teams throughout western playing in my federal commissioner located in Ottawa. riding, and at times Fleetwood rink was as tense as it Polls and surveys have shown a consistently high was in Salt Lake City when our Canadian women bat- level of concern over the use of personal information tled for and won the gold. over the Internet, a concern that is recognized as hav- Our own Fleetwood Hawks finished the four-day ing a stifling effect on the public's utilization of elec- competition with a bronze medal. Perhaps one day we

6352 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 may see one of my constituents representing Canada in porter of community groups, as I know every member the Olympics at the next women's hockey finals. of this House has been. So while I want to congratulate the Vancouver Ca- It's just in the past week I was with the Burnaby nucks and wish them much luck and skill in their pur- Optimist Club, where they held a banquet honouring a suit of the Stanley Cup, I also want to tell Fleetwood number of students in an essay-writing contest. The Hawks; their coach, Harbs Bains, as well as his assis- Optimist Club of Burnaby is supporting youth, and tant, Wendy Kaiser; and the chair of the host commit- they recognize them. In the past week I was with the tee, Karen and Rick Kupchuk, that they did Surrey, my Burquitlam Lions Club over Easter at an Easter egg riding of Surrey-Tynehead and all my constituents hunt, where there were over 500 participants coming proud in the Western Shield women's hockey champi- out and probably 75 volunteers, with many things do- onship. nated as a gift to the community. In the past two weeks I've sent a letter in support of Scouts Canada in a fund- UNIVERSITY OF VICTORIA raising effort. It's the experience, but in my position it's been an I. Chong: It is my great pleasure to announce that honour to meet so many volunteers in this province. this year the University of Victoria is saluting post- We wouldn't have the cities and the communities that secondary education by celebrating the fortieth anni- we enjoy today without volunteers. Volunteers do their versary of UVic and the 100th anniversary of its prede- work quietly, and we must recognize that contribution cessor, Victoria College. Both the campus and the as often as we can. In community they strengthen community are coming alive with more than 90 special bonds and family, and they help those who cannot events this year. help themselves. Victoria College first threw open its doors in 1903 It's a privilege for me to stand here today and salute as a public, co-ed, two-year university college. Then in all the volunteers of British Columbia. 1963, in the last of many moves, Victoria College estab- lished itself on the Gordon Head campus site and offi- Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements. cially became the University of Victoria. [1425] Oral Questions Over the last 40 years UVic has established itself as one of Canada's leading universities. People around FAIR PHARMACARE REGISTRATION the world recognize UVic for its dedication to excel- lence in teaching and for its innovative and interdisci- J. MacPhail: Yesterday the Minister of Health Ser- plinary approaches to research and scholarship. vices announced what amounts to a new deadline to Researchers at the University of Victoria work on register for Pharmacare coverage. Will he confirm to- the cutting edge of knowledge creation, making major day that the new deadline for registration is January 1, contributions in a wide range of fields from fuel cells 2004, and that those British Columbians who register and cancer cells to climate change and cultural change. after that are hit with big drug bills and will not be Thirty-seven current or former UVic faculty members reimbursed? have been elected fellows of the Royal Society of Can- ada, Canada's most prestigious accolade. Hon. C. Hansen: I have said this many, many times Today more than 18,000 undergraduate and gradu- to this member over the last couple of days, but I will ate students from around the world enjoy a campus repeat it again. There is no deadline for registering for community that offers outstanding social, cultural, Pharmacare. She or anyone she knows can register artistic, environmental and athletic opportunities. today, tomorrow, next week or next year. At least seven members of this House are proud UVic alumni, including the Minister of Community, Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a Aboriginal and Women's Services; the Minister of Hu- supplementary question. man Resources; the Minister of Health Services; and, of course, my colleague sitting right next to me, the mem- J. MacPhail: I know that the Minister of Health ber for Chilliwack-Kent. Services gets his little message box every morning, but I congratulate the University of Victoria and its perhaps he could listen to the question. I asked what predecessors on their centennial. May they continue to happens… bring pride to the people of Victoria and British Co- lumbia, and may they continue to play a role in the Interjections. health of the world by contributing to the multitude of the wise. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

NATIONAL VOLUNTEER WEEK J. MacPhail: …if one doesn't register by the new deadline he set yesterday, which is January 1, 2004. As H. Bloy: It gives me an honour today to rise in the the minister knows, yesterday he announced this new House in support of National Volunteer Week. As most deadline in response to a scripted question from the of you know, I have been an avid volunteer and a sup- member for Saanich South. But yesterday the minister

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6353 also admitted that the decision to set the new deadline tion he gives here on an hourly basis. While the minis- was made months ago, but that they deliberately with- ter was keeping quiet about the changed rules allowing held that information. That's an astonishing admission British Columbians to be reimbursed if they registered of deliberate deception on the part of this minister. after May 1, information provided on his website and How can the minister accuse anyone — whether it through advertising tells those same British Columbi- be a Liberal constituency association, a senior or the ans that if they fail to register, they will lose benefits. opposition — of fearmongering, when he admits that Here's the quote. he deliberately kept British Columbians in the dark about the new rules? Interjections. [1430] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Hon. member, Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, I would caution us all can we have the question now, please. to use parliamentary language, and "deliberate decep- tion" is unparliamentary. J. MacPhail: Yes, I will, Mr. Speaker. Here's the I would now ask the Minister of Health Services to question. I'm giving information that deliberately con- respond. tradicts what the minister says.

Hon. C. Hansen: I will reiterate this once again. Interjections. There is no deadline for registration for the new Fair Pharmacare program. But I will try to help the member Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I understand, hon. just a little bit. I think what she is trying to refer to is member. Could we please have the question now. the fact that if an individual British Columbian does not take the time to get registered and would have J. MacPhail: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is been eligible for benefits had they been registered, we the question on the website: "What if I don't register by will reimburse them at the end of this calendar year for May 1?" The answer is: "You will not be eligible to re- any overpayment they may have made. That is emi- ceive your maximum financial assistance." Can the nently fair, but there is still no deadline. A person can Minister of Health Services explain why he continues register whenever they want. There is no obligation for to spread information that he knows is not correct, ac- an individual to register. cording to his own website? It's a great program. It provides more financial as- sistance to 280,000 British Columbia families compared Hon. C. Hansen: There has been no change in pol- to the program that was in place before. I'm proud of icy on this file since we announced it. There has been the program, and I can assure British Columbians that, no change in the information. I think the excerpt that first of all, there's no obligation for them to register if the member just read out is…. We want to make sure they don't want to take advantage of these benefits. that a low- or middle-income family in British Colum- Secondly, they can register at any time, whether it's this bia that is eligible for benefits under the Fair Phar- year or next year. macare gets them at the time they get their prescrip- tions filled. The only way those families can get those Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a benefits at the time they get their prescriptions filled is further supplementary question. to make sure they are registered. I am pleased to report that of the 450,000 families J. MacPhail: How insulting to the people of British that have benefited from Fair Pharmacare in the past Columbia that he would somehow suggest there's not a and most of whom will continue to benefit in the future deadline because if they don't want the benefits, they — and many more families will benefit in the future — don't have to register. How insulting to the poor, the those families, overwhelmingly, are already signed up. sick and the elderly in this province. Yesterday he set a They will get the benefits starting tomorrow. new… [1435] It's unfortunate that this member did not get a more Interjections. comprehensive understanding of the program from the start. Clearly, we have seen her understanding of this Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Let us hear the ques- issue flip-flop from day to day as we have gone tion. through this process.

J. MacPhail: …deadline, saying that if you don't INFANT MORTALITY RATE register by December 31, you don't get your benefits retroactively. Not only did the minister deliberately S. Orr: My question is to the Minister of Health withhold that information that would have helped ease Planning. Recently the media and the opposition have the worry and confusion that surrounds this botched highlighted an increase in infant mortality rates. Fur- registration process, but he deliberately communicated thermore, some have suggested that this government and advertised information that was incorrect about no longer uses the infant mortality rate as a measure of the program's requirements, according to the informa- success in health care. This is very worrisome, if true.

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Therefore, I ask the minister to please tell us if this We have had some experience in the past with government has abandoned infant mortality rate as a community-based, non-profit and private sector man- performance measure and to explain how we compare agement of heritage sites, and we're going to build on to the rest of Canada. that very good experience in areas like Barkerville, Fort Steele and elsewhere. Hon. S. Hawkins: The measure of infant mortality We have taken a good deal longer — and it cer- is, always has been and will continue to be measured in tainly was our plan from the beginning to take longer B.C. Vital Statistics collects the information, and it is — for some of the larger, more complex sites in the monitored. The provincial health officer reviews the province, like Barkerville and Fort Steele. But in just a data. It's used by both the Ministry of Health Services few days, early in May, we will be going to an RFP for and the Ministry of Health Planning to assess how we Barkerville. I'm very confident that we will end up can continue to improve on it. with some very excellent management for Barkerville The provincial health officer informs me that he is as a consequence of that. aware of the rise…. LONG-TERM CARE BEDS Interjection. IN POWELL RIVER AREA

Hon. S. Hawkins: Mr. Speaker, the provincial H. Long: My question is to the Minister of State for health officer informs me that he is aware of the rise in Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care. Some of my infant mortality. In 2001 there were 40,391 live births constituents have approached me with concerns about and 162 deaths. In 2002 there were 39,870 live births the number of long-term care beds in the Powell River and 177 deaths. This data is not complete for that year. area. Families have had to face separation when those When it's completed, the provincial health officer will with needs for Alzheimer palliative care sometimes be reviewing it. have had to leave the community in order to receive He advises me that it is too early to say whether it's care they need. statistically significant or whether it indicates a trend. Can the Minister of State for Intermediate, Long He also advises that it's too early to say what's causing Term and Home Care explain what efforts are being the increase. It could be SIDS — sudden infant death made to keep families together and to ensure that long- syndrome. It could be congenital anomalies. term care is available in my riding? We are committed to making sure that infant mor- [1440] tality in B.C. is decreasing. We have the best infant mortality in the country according to our latest data, Hon. K. Whittred: I thank the member for his in- and we're going to continue to work with our provin- quiry. cial health officer and our health authorities to make Our first goal, of course, is always to ensure that the sure that we keep it low. patient has the appropriate bed for their level of care. To that end we are working in our redesign of long- Interjection. term care to ensure that all communities, including heartland communities, have a broad range of options Mr. Speaker: Order, please. for seniors' care. Powell River will be receiving new complex care BARKERVILLE HISTORIC SITE beds. In addition, there will be assisted-living beds; 20 have already been opened at Glacier Apartments. And J. Wilson: My question is to the Minister of Com- as we speak, B.C. Housing and the Vancouver coastal munity, Aboriginal and Women's Services. I recently health authority are working together on a project to heard from a number of constituents who have ex- renovate the Olive Devaud Residence into assisted- pressed concern regarding the devolution of manage- living units. ment for the Barkerville historic site. Barkerville is an important part of the tourist indus- FAIR PHARMACARE REGISTRATION try in my riding, as well as being a significant piece of history for Cariboo residents. Can the Minister of J. MacPhail: It turns out that my constituency office Community, Aboriginal, and Women's Services explain is as troubled as the Liberal constituency office. We've what steps have been taken to ensure that tourism in been trying for hours this morning to fax registration Barkerville will not be negatively affected by this initia- forms for seniors who can't afford to wait for the minis- tive and that all of the historical artifacts will be pro- ter to reimburse them at the end of the year, if that rule tected? still applies — nothing but busy signals. As a result of the minister's misinformation campaign, these con- Hon. G. Abbott: I certainly agree with the member stituents are desperate to get registered before the min- that Barkerville is a huge tourism and cultural resource ister changes the rules again. to the Cariboo. Certainly, what we're going to do I know the minister's had trouble keeping his story through the devolution process is ensure that that great straight and is lost in the tangled web of contradictory and resource is both protected and enhanced. confusing information he's provided British Columbians.

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So I ask the minister this: would it help if the opposition Motions on Notice provided him with a full briefing on the changes to the Pharmacare system that he announced last February, with CITIZENS ASSEMBLY ON a detailed accounting of the flip-flopping, the contradic- ELECTORAL REFORM tion, the withheld information and the spread misinfor- mation? If it might help him clear up the confusion, I Hon. G. Campbell: I move Motion 99 standing in would be happy to do that for him. the name of the Attorney General on the order paper. [Be it resolved that this House supports the creation of a [End of question period.] Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform as expressed in the terms of reference and duties of the chair tabled in the Reports from Committees House on Monday, April 28, 2003.]

I am pleased to stand today in support of this mo- B. Lekstrom: I have the honour to present a report tion. It is a long time. In fact, this has never happened from the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary before, where a legislative body has said to the people Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private who elect them that they want the advice of the public Bills. on how we should elect our elected representatives in I would move that the report be read and received. the province of British Columbia. Indeed, if you go Motion approved. back to 1858, this is the first time in 145 years we are actually giving the people of British Columbia a direct Law Clerk: say in how they should elect the MLAs that are meant "April 30, 2003: to serve them. After all, in a democracy, we should "Your Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary remember we are here at the service and the pleasure Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private of the people of this province. Bills begs leave to report as follows: [1445] "(1) that the preamble to Bill Pr405, intituled Score On April 17, 1999, while I was still in opposition, I Resources Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003, has said that it was time we gave the people of B.C. the been approved, and the committee recommends that right to demonstrate how they want to elect their the bill proceed to second reading; MLAs. I am proud to stand here today and say that this "(2) that the preamble to Bill Pr403, intituled Cam is the first government in the history of British Colum- Glass Inc. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003, has been bia — this is the first government in the history of our approved, and the committee recommends that the bill country — that has given the people that right. proceed to second reading; There is no more fundamental tenet that we agree to "(3) that the preamble to Bill Pr404, intituled M&M as we seek office than that in a democracy, the rules of the Insulations Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003, has democracy should be designed by the people they serve, been approved, and the committee recommends that not by the power brokers who may wish that the democ- the bill as amended proceed to second reading. racy worked in their interests. It is by turning to the peo- "All of which is respectfully submitted. ple and trusting the public that I believe we can re- Chairman." establish the critical link between our democratic institu- tions and those that they are supposed to serve. B. Lekstrom: By leave, I move that the report be I said before, as we entered office, that we wanted adopted. to try to restore and re-establish the trust of the public for their public institutions. I can think of no more im- Leave granted. portant way to do that than for those of us who are fortunate enough to be elected and to serve in these Motion approved. institutions to trust the public, to trust the public's judgment and to trust the public wisdom as we fashion Bills Pr405, Pr403 and Pr404 ordered to be placed a legislature that will truly meet the needs of every on orders of the day for second reading at the next sit- single part of this great province. ting of the House after today. Today we are debating a motion that will make our commitment to the people of B.C. a reality. The citizens Petitions assembly, as I said, is a first for British Columbia. It's interesting that since 1949 — between 1949 and 2001 — J. MacPhail: I rise to table a petition signed by 50 there was not a government in this province that was displaced IWA workers asking the government to en- elected by more than 50 percent of the popular vote. force section 71 of the Forest Act. Their jobs are directly There have been people that have asked legitimate affected by the decision not to enforce the laws that are questions with regard to how we elect our elected rep- designed to protect their jobs. resentatives. The former MLA Nick Loenen, who has looked at this and examined this for some time, has Orders of the Day some suggestions for how he thinks we could improve the system. I know members of this chamber, having Hon. G. Plant: I call Motion 99 on the order paper. experienced it, will have their own suggestions.

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The critical thing for us to recognize is that in a I was not, and the government was not, wanting to democracy, the open sharing of information, the open cast our citizens assembly in the former moulds that search for solutions to reform, to reinvigorate and to we may have had in the past where political interests revitalize our public institutions should be an ongoing — where a specific interest in a specific result — drove learning experience. It should be an ongoing search for the decisions of the assembly. I should say again that I discovery of what will do the best for the people that am proud that an assembly with this makeup is willing live in our province. I am proud to support this motion, to say to citizens: "You decide." and I am proud to be part of a legislature that has ta- There is no secret. We did particularly well in the bled it in the hopes that we can create that revitaliza- last election with the given set of rules for electing tion. MLAs in British Columbia. There is also no secret that I These decisions should be made by those who elect believe each member of this House is committed to us. Last September the government asked Gordon Gib- strengthening this institution. I believe that by giving son, a former member of this House, a former leader of the people of British Columbia the chance to shape this a political party in the province but, more importantly, institution, we will do just that. someone who has spent his life examining our public In keeping our commitment to people, we said institutions in Canada and here in British Columbia…. prior to the election that we believed the assembly We released Mr. Gibson's report, and I recommended should be selected like a jury. It should be randomly both to members of this assembly and to members of selected. It should be a selection process that reaches the public who are interested to look at the various out to each part of this province and, indeed, is reflec- issues Mr. Gibson dealt with and the recommendations tive of the people that live here in this province. Build- he came forward with. It is his recommendations that ing on the foundation of Mr. Gibson's recommenda- form the foundation for the motion which is before this tions, our recommendation that you will see in the House today. terms of reference says that we have asked the chief There are some critical components of those re- electoral officer to help guide a randomly selected citi- commendations, which I believe are fundamental to zens assembly. both the spirit and the intent of what this government First, let me say this: we all know in this House that is committed to doing. We wanted as much as we every British Columbian who is eligible to vote and could in this government to depoliticize this process, to eligible to be on the voters list has not necessarily regis- have this process driven by citizens. As hard as it is for tered. I would like to tell the members of the assembly those of us who stand in this assembly or who sit in and the public today that we want to encourage that this assembly and serve an elected office to recognize, registration. We will try to encourage it to take place in there are some British Columbians who aren't spending ways that will build our voters list and make sure that their every waking hour thinking about what we do as many people as possible are registered, that we at and how we do it. least give citizens the chance to register. The chief electoral officer will then be asked to An Hon. Member: No. stratify a sample of names. That simply does this: it [1450] provides for an equal number of names from each rid- ing. It will provide for an equal number of men and Hon. G. Campbell: That's true. But for us, what we women. It will provide for a distribution that's reflec- want to do is try and engage those British Columbians tive of the age of British Columbians. Anyone who is 18 — all British Columbians — in looking at this, because years or over and on the voters list will be eligible. we have a gift here. We have a gift that those of us who Again, we want our assembly to be reflective of the were born in Canada or born in British Columbia generations that live in British Columbia, of the regions sometimes take for granted. We have a gift where it is that exist in British Columbia and of the interests that indeed the work of the ballot, the casting of that ballot, exist in British Columbia. that can constitute the momentum for change, the cata- Interested persons will be able to attend local selec- lyst for change, the catalyst for strengthening our social tion meetings. They will self-select. They will randomly union here in this province, the catalyst for building select, but they will self-select. It is important for all of the kinds of communities that we want and the vehicle us to recognize that this is an act of true citizenship. It for imagining a future and then bringing people to- is an act that will require those who participate to be- gether to pursue that future. come educated, to spend time in deliberation and in I've worked and lived in a country where indeed it public hearings across the province. I believe that it's was not the ballot that drove those changes. It was the critical that they know both their obligations and their bullet. I've lived in a country that saw changes in gov- responsibilities, as well as the timetable for action that ernment that were carried out by coup, by military fiat. will be laid out for the citizens assembly. I've never even come close to thinking that would hap- We said that we wanted membership to be repre- pen in Canada. We're fortunate to live in a country that sentative of the entire province. There is not a member does take the ballot and our democratic institutions in this House that doesn't recognize what an enormous seriously. Not just seriously — they're the very founda- place British Columbia is, how vast our province is and tion of our culture, our beliefs, and what we can pursue indeed how vast even regions within the province can and achieve as a country and as a province. be. In terms of meeting the needs of the regions of the

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6357 people who live there, we wanted to be sure that there together as we make these changes, if indeed they was broad representation from each part and each cor- should be recommended. ner of the province. To achieve that, the terms of refer- Secondly, this change will require 60 percent overall ence provide a large membership of two members for voter approval. There are some who have already sug- each of the electoral districts that serve in this province, gested that that is too high an approval rating. Clearly, for a total of 158 members plus the chair, which will the government disagrees with that. We believe this is a make the citizens assembly 159. significant change. It's a significant change that should [1455] require the kind of approval that says, indeed, a great It is important, I believe, for us to recognize that majority of people in this province feel that they will while Mr. Gibson recommended some top-up provi- benefit from this change — that they will benefit from sions, we felt the expansion of the committee provided this change, Mr. Speaker; not that we or any given politi- for more representation and more opportunity for cal party will benefit from the change. people throughout the province. I believe this is a very important step. One of the We said we would have a mandate to hold public critical keystones of this assembly's success will rest in hearings throughout B.C. That will take place. And the person of the chair. It was important, I believe, for again, I want to say this clearly to this House. We have the chair to truly guide the assembly as we move for- recommended the appointment of a chair, and as you'll ward. As you know, the government has nominated know from the second motion before the House, it is Dr. Jack Blaney, the former president of Simon Fraser suggested that a special legislative committee be estab- University, the current chair of the Fraser Basin Coun- lished to review that nomination from the government. cil, the man who was the driving force behind the dia- Should that legislative committee unanimously sup- logue centre at , which is in- port the chair, then we will ask the chair to look at how ternationally recognized as a centre for building learn- this process should work, how many meetings should ing and understanding and for decisive decision- take place and where they should take place. But the making. Mr. Blaney is known not just as a conceptual spirit and the intent of the government are clear, and thinker but as a consensus builder. I believe he brings the budget for the assembly is clear. We expect those significant talents to the onerous task that lies ahead. meetings to be taking place throughout the province. [1500] It's important to allow the people of our province to Mr. Speaker, I want to be clear about this. I cer- have not just the oral opportunity but also the written tainly do not know what a citizens assembly will de- opportunity to present to the citizens assembly. That is cide. I do know this — that given the opportunity, citi- provided for in the terms of reference. zens will be creative, will be thoughtful, will be inte- We said we wanted to ensure clear endorsement by grative, will concern themselves with our entire prov- the assembly. Now, those of us who have been in- ince, will concern themselves with how government volved in public life for some time know there's noth- truly can serve the needs and the ideas of British Co- ing that can take up more time — often for fewer re- lumbians from every corner of this province. sults — than a constitutional debate, a debate about the I have confidence in the people of British Columbia. ifs and buts and what-ifs and maybes that take place in I have confidence that we have put forward before this the world we live in. I've experienced this at the local House today a motion which will set in motion a true level of government, and I've seen it time and time public debate, a true public discussion, a true public again where, because there is no single decision that's opportunity for learning about one of the critical parts made, there is never a decision to improve the system, of our lives: our democratic institution, our Legislature. if that is indeed what's necessitated and required in the This is a gift we've been given by previous generations. judgment of the assembly. This is our opportunity to strengthen that gift. This is We have specifically asked the assembly to recom- our opportunity to restore some of the confidence and mend a specific change. If the assembly recommends a trust that people should have in this great institution. change by a majority vote of the assembly, that will This institution is not made up of us as individuals. require at least 80 members of the assembly to support Each of us has the opportunity to serve. Each of us is it. If the assembly recommends a change, then that given the privilege of service when we come here. option will be submitted to a provincewide referen- I believe that in passing and supporting this mo- dum on May 17, 2005, just like we said it would be. tion, we will have exercised that privilege in a way that The government wants to ensure that all British is exceptional, in a way that says we remember first Columbians have an opportunity to vote before any and foremost that we are here at the service of the peo- change is adopted. We want to be sure any change that ple of this province. There's no more important mes- is adopted is truly endorsed by the regions of the prov- sage that we could send. ince and the people of the province. We believe this is a fundamental and significant change, and we therefore J. MacPhail: Speaking to the resolution for the citi- have placed a double approval process in place. zens assembly, I make the following comments. Mr. First, the assembly must receive a 50-percent-plus- Speaker, over a year ago I wrote to the Premier as one approval rate from 60 percent of the ridings in the leader of the NDP offering our support for a process province. That's important, because at the end of the whereby the people of British Columbia could partici- day we know we have to bring the whole province pate in a non-partisan discussion of electoral reform. It

6358 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 is worth noting that Canada is one of the few liberal the hard work of Mr. . He has consid- democracies continuing to use the first-past-the-post ered this problem at length, along with the assistance system. Elsewhere, the first-past-the-post system has of many knowledgable British Columbians, and has been losing ground certainly in recent years. also considered the expectations of government and In 1993 New Zealanders voted in a referendum to the promises it has made. scrap first-past-the-post and to replace it with propor- I would be remiss if I did not point out that Fair tional representation. In the United Kingdom the La- Vote Canada and others have expressed concern for the bour government, in its first term, introduced versions requirement of a supermajority, which is seen as an of proportional representation into the elections for the impediment to achieving the kinds of reform that some new Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland assemblies. — I would say many — people are hoping for. The government also adopted proportional representa- Acknowledging some of the shortcomings of this tion for the election of United Kingdom members of the proposal but also acknowledging the need for reform, I European Parliament in 1999 and is considering hold- do not want to impede the progress of this debate, ing a referendum on reforming elections to the West- whatever the form through which it will take place. But minster Parliament. we also want to hold true to the commitment, best ar- In Canada as a whole, the proportion of Canadians ticulated by Mr. Gibson, that the process, from begin- expressing dissatisfaction with the electoral system ning to end, be as transparent as is possible. increased from 39 percent to 49 percent just between Therefore, when I was approached by the govern- the years of 1990 and 2000 — a big shift by the begin- ment some weeks ago with the suggestion for appoint- ning of this decade. The biggest change was registered ing Mr. Blaney as chair, rather than holding to Mr. Gib- right here in British Columbia, where the proportion of son's suggestion of a candidate search by a committee of respondents who find first-past-the-post unacceptable the Legislature, I made an alternate suggestion that fell increased from 43 percent to a full 63 percent — the between the government's original suggestion of merely highest level of dissatisfaction of any region. That appointing Mr. Blaney and Mr. Gibson's suggestion study was Howe and Northrup of 2000. about a rather longer process of selection. I suggested A survey conducted in early 2001 by the Canada that a confirmation hearing might be the way to meet the West Foundation found that 71.6 percent of westerners, test of transparency but also deal with the very real including 75.9 percent of British Columbians, favour problem of a limited time line on this initiative. the introduction of an electoral system based on pro- I am pleased that the government acknowledged portional representation. That study was done by the that suggestion and put it in place. I'm also pleased Canada West Foundation in the year 2001. that the government has sought to make the process Electoral reform is also championed by non- more transparent by allowing for confirmation hear- partisan organizations such as Fair Voting B.C. — for- ings for the lead staff. That was another suggestion I mer MLA Nick Loenen is here today to observe the made a few weeks ago, and I'm pleased the govern- debate; it was a pleasure to see him on the floor of the ment has embraced it. Legislature — and also by a national group, Fair Vote Despite the late date for the beginning of this Canada, founded in August 2000. process, many of the suggestions from Mr. Gibson are Those who are watching this debate…. For the in- sage and should not be dismissed without full regard formation of the members of this chamber but also for the potential impact of dismissing his suggestions those in the public who are watching, a copy of my on both process and outcome. The government has letter to the Premier is available at www.bc.ndp.ca. I accepted many of Mr. Gibson's suggestions, but I am know that the Liberal MLAs go to that site regularly, concerned that it has left unanswered the matter of but I also hope the public will go and view that letter I taking the time to make sure all British Columbians sent to the Premier last year. know they need to be on the voters list. [1505] I did hear the Premier address that in his remarks earlier, except I do note that just a couple of days ago, An Hon. Member: I couldn't get in earlier. April 28, the government backgrounder on the sum- mary of the Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform J. MacPhail: Yes, it is true. It is such a popular site has this response to a recommendation made by Mr. that it is hard to get into. It's a little easier than the Gibson: "Mr. Gibson recommended that the selection Pharmacare registration. process should be preceded by a publicity campaign I would like to take some of the highlights that our for those not on the voters list to sign up." The decision proposal at that time made to the Premier. At the time, listed by the government is: "No decision taken. Await my proposal contemplated an appointed commission recommendations of the chair." that would have included expertise from other jurisdic- I hope we can take the Premier's words now that tions and then an accompanying process that would this government is going to proceed with a publicity have allowed the general population to participate in a campaign. However, I am concerned that the chair has referendum on a selection of options, followed then by not been granted the authority to make minor adjust- a final referendum on a single option. ments that may result in a change in the voters list and The government this week has brought forward an that would change the makeup of the assembly to bet- alternative model, which is in large part the result of ter represent the population as a whole.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6359

[1510] On the amendment. I would therefore propose an amendment to the motion. I believe the government has a copy of that J. MacPhail: My amendment would grant the amendment, and the Table has a copy of the amend- chair the opportunity to adjust the membership of ment. I'll read the amendment to the motion into the the assembly to compensate for the underrepresenta- record. Moved by me: tion of minority communities, as well as allow an [That Motion 99 in the name of Hon. G. Plant be alternative approach to the problems associated with amended by adding after Monday, April 28th, 2003 the using the voters list to draw the membership from. following: Of course, in particular, should the chair determine ", but recommends to government that it heed the advice there isn't enough time to conduct a program of pub- of Mr. Gibson that the Chair of the Assembly be given the power (but not the requirement) to add up to four licly encouraging sign-up over the course of two to additional members of the Assembly, randomly drawn three months — again, a recommendation Mr. Gib- from a category or categories of persons selected by the son made and the government has remained silent Chair."] on until the Premier's speech today — then some This amendment would grant the chair the oppor- 800,000 British Columbians will not be considered tunity to adjust the membership of the assembly to for membership. compensate for the underrepresentation of minority As Mr. Gibson points out, the group most under- communities, as well as allow an alternative approach represented is young people between the ages of 18 to the problems associated with using the voters list to to 24. I'm sure all members of the Legislature join draw the membership…. with me in wanting to make sure that generation is properly represented. This would be one way the Mr. Speaker: Hon. member, are you speaking now chair could try to make amends for failings in the to the amendment? Have you moved the amendment? sample process. Another example I give you on perhaps the J. MacPhail: Yes. potential for underrepresentation is this. Aboriginal persons make up only around 2 percent — perhaps Mr. Speaker: No, I don't think so. a little bit more, but right now about 2 percent — of the British Columbia population and so would only, J. MacPhail: I thought I asked that question. My by the law of averages, take up three positions in an apologies. assembly of 158 persons. Mathematically, the stan- dard deviation on a number so small is close to two, Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, we'll just take a meaning that the actual number selected could be moment while we ensure that the amendment is in just one aboriginal person or perhaps even none. It order. would be a shame if these proud people, who have In the meantime, the Minister of Agriculture, Food a special constitutional role in the history and fu- and Fisheries seeks the floor for an introduction. Shall ture of British Columbia, were to be completely ex- leave be granted? cluded. In support of the amendment to the motion, I refer Leave granted. members to Mr. Gibson's report, pages 9 and 19, for a review of his arguments on these matters. Introductions by Members Mr. Speaker: The member for Prince George– Hon. J. van Dongen: I'm pleased to introduce to the Omineca on the amendment. House today 46 grades 4 and 5 students accompanied by a number of parents and their teachers, Mrs. Kehler P. Nettleton: Thank you for this opportunity to and Miss Schmidt, and they're from Philip Sheffield speak to the amendment to the motion. Indeed, I am Elementary School in Abbotsford. Philip Sheffield rising in support of the motion to take very seri- School is very notable because it was once attended by ously Mr. Gibson's recommendation, as referenced a former Premier of this House, Premier Bill Vander by the Leader of the Opposition, that the chair of Zalm. I ask the House to please make all of these stu- the citizens assembly be able to appoint four mem- dents welcome. bers. [1515] I am disappointed to learn that the government has rejected this recommendation. Even the most carefully Debate Continued constructed, randomly developed selection process is subject to issues of potential underrepresentation. That Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, we will just pause is why even the government here takes public opinion here for a few moments while we check out one aspect survey results with a large grain of salt or two. There's of the amendment. Please stand by. just no way they are done perfectly, and so we must Hon. members, we have determined that the compensate. amendment is in order. We will now proceed with the The goal is to get a citizens assembly to look at elec- debate on the amendment. toral reform, and that assembly would be composed of

6360 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 people representative of the population of our prov- knowledge it, and I think we understand and accept an ince. What happens if, as luck would have it, a certain obligation to move forward to help address that issue. I group such as aboriginals are left off the assembly after believe it's almost inevitably the case that that work the names have been pulled from the hat? Surely, the will involve some activity on the part of the Elections government would want to have a per- B.C. folks, and I intend to commence that discussion spective on this most important issue. Surely, they immediately. In terms of making sure that we address would want to be known for allowing for the input of this issue of underrepresentation, I want to assure the British Columbians from all walks of life. Surely, that is House that we take that issue seriously, and we are why Mr. Gibson has added this recommendation and going to move forward with it. has done so in a reasoned and cautious manner. Funny There's also the issue that the member for Prince that the government now rejects this. George–Omineca identified of making sure that the [1520] assembly has the input of all British Columbians. I You would think that on the one hand, they are so think that assurance is implicit in the fact that we be- committed to making electoral reform happen in the lieve this assembly has an obligation to spend some interests of enhancing democracy as it is practised in time travelling around the province and listening to this province. But on the other hand, the government British Columbians. I think the members of the assem- appears not to be doing so, or at least not doing their bly will feel an obligation to listen to and receive input utmost to ensure that the assembly itself — the bedrock from all British Columbians, so all British Columbians of this new-era promise — is properly constructed and will indeed have an opportunity to provide input to constituted. the assembly. In conclusion, I support the inclusion of this re- [1525] commendation when it comes to the selection of the But the question that the amendment speaks to, citizens assembly. It will ensure that the assembly does fundamentally, is: how do we constitute the assem- the job it will be entrusted to do to the best of its ability bly? We think that the principle of random selection is and in a thorough manner. important. When we spoke to Mr. Gibson about his recommendations with respect to the size and compo- Hon. G. Plant: I appreciate the spirit with which I sition of the assembly, we asked him, among other believe the amendment is offered — that is, to ensure things, whether and to what extent his views about the that the citizens assembly is as broadly representative size of the assembly were influenced by the fact that of British Columbia as it can be. I want to speak now to the terms of reference for his work required that he the amendment, recognizing that after we deal with the take into consideration issues of budget. amendment, I assume the opposition leader will have He said that, in fact, his views were to some extent more to say about the main motion. I look forward to influenced by the issue of budget. To put that in another continued debate. way, in offering the recommendation that the assembly There are a couple of things that I think are relevant should be somewhere between 79 and 100 or so people, to the context of this issue. They were part of the con- Mr. Gibson was trying to live within the terms of a text, I suppose, identified by the opposition leader in budget that he thought was reasonable. That process, making the motion. She pointed out a concern with influenced or not by budget, inevitably led Mr. Gibson respect to underrepresentation of young people on the to wrestle pretty hard with the question of: how do you voters list. get an assembly that is as representative as possible? I think she was right to point out that in the docu- The members of the assembly and members of the ments we released a day or so ago at the time that we public who have read Mr. Gibson's report will have released Mr. Gibson's report, we stated that govern- seen, I think, that he identified that it's not necessarily ment had essentially not taken a position that we the easiest issue in the world and also offered a number would undertake a campaign to encourage voter regis- of ideas for how to get to an assembly that would be as tration at this point. We thought that might be a matter representative as possible of the interests of all British that could be left to the chair, but actually I think we do Columbians. have an obligation here as government to do some of Our view is that the majority of the concerns about that work now. representativeness of the assembly can actually be When the Premier said in his remarks earlier that dealt with and are being dealt with in our proposal, he thought that we did have an obligation to encourage which is essentially to double the size of the assembly. voter registration, he meant it. That is the view that we When I read the analysis in Mr. Gibson's report that have as government, so there will be some work done supports the amendment that the opposition leader has in that regard that does not require that we wait until put forward, I read it from the perspective of the con- the appointment of the chair. It may be that the ap- text that Mr. Gibson had before him. I think that be- pointment of the chair will not take long, in which case cause the circumstances have changed in a pretty im- some of this work may overlap with the chair's ap- portant way, the need for the amendment and the need pointment. for the process contemplated by the amendment have I think we have to acknowledge that there is an also changed. issue with respect to underrepresentation in the voters By making the assembly essentially twice as large list. That issue was identified by Mr. Gibson. We ac- as it had originally been conceived it could be, we have

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6361 increased significantly the chance that the assembly made clear by the fact that Mr. Gibson took quite a bit will be representative of the broad diversity of British of time to think his way through them. Columbia. We know going in that the first round of We've changed the framework a little bit — and I selection of possible members of the assembly will be think in an important way — by doubling the size of organized in a way that ensures gender balance, geo- the assembly. I think that has a great likelihood of pro- graphic distribution and some measure of age balance. ducing an assembly that is broadly representative of I may have more to say about those issues when we get the people of British Columbia. We're going to do some to the main motion. work to give all those people in British Columbia who By doubling the size of the assembly, I think we've could be on the voters list, but aren't, a chance to sign made it much more likely that we're going to achieve a up if they want to. That's probably work we should balanced and representative assembly. If we abandon always be doing in any event. the principle of randomness to adopt a principle that For those reasons, I think that we should maintain says the chair or some other person can select members the basic structure of the recommendations set out in of the assembly, there are, I think, both practical and the terms of reference, and the government will not be theoretical problems. supporting the amendment put forward by the opposi- First of all, the practical problems. It's not com- tion leader. pletely clear where the names will come from that will constitute the source of the top-up members or pro- Mr. Speaker: Thank you, hon. members. The posed members that are contemplated. I have to say question will be on the amendment as proposed by that while the voters list is clearly the best tool for iden- the Leader of the Opposition. I will read it just so that tifying the right class of British Columbians to partici- everyone is clear as to what the amendment is. pate in this process, the voters list doesn't tell us very [That Motion 99 in the name of Hon. G. Plant be much about people other than their names and their amended by adding after Monday, April 28th, 2003 the places of residence. following: [1530] ", but recommends to government that it heed the advice To get beyond that, even to deal with issues of age of Mr. Gibson that the Chair of the Assembly be given and gender — although I'm sure the voters list would the power (but not the requirement) to add up to four additional members of the Assembly, randomly drawn — be helpful for most cases as far as gender goes will from a category or categories of persons selected by the require a bit of work on the part of those who under- Chair."] take the first stratification. To get beyond that even [1535-1540] further, to explore issues of ethnic identity, and so on, will require even more work and perhaps a measure of Amendment negatived on the following division: invasion of personal privacy, in some respects, that some may find difficult to accept. I'm not saying that those issues are insurmountable obstacles, but it seems YEAS — 2 to me that they are pretty important practical chal- lenges. Nettleton MacPhail The philosophical issue, I think, is where I finally come to a landing on the proposed amendment. I think — that by giving the chair the power to appoint members NAYS 64 to the assembly, we are changing in a way that is more important than I may be able to appreciate standing Coell Hogg L. Reid here — changing in a pretty important way the funda- Halsey-Brandt Hawkins Whittred mental makeup of the assembly. Cheema Hansen J. Reid There will be some members who will have been Santori Barisoff Roddick selected by random and some who will have been ap- pointed by the chair. It may be that you could do it in a Wilson Masi Lee way that that wouldn't be known. I'm not sure how Hagen Murray Plant certain you could be about keeping that so for the Campbell Collins Clark whole time that the assembly was at work. The main Bond de Jong Nebbeling reason why that is so is because, if the member's pro- Stephens Abbott Coleman posal were to be accepted, there would be at least one and as many as four constituencies that would have Chong Penner Anderson one, two, three or four more members representing Orr Nuraney Bell their constituency than would be produced by the pro- Long Chutter Trumper posal that we have here, which will have two constitu- Johnston Bennett R. Stewart ents from each constituency in the province. Hayer Christensen Krueger I don't claim that these things are absolutely black and white. I don't know that there is an absolutely right McMahon Bray Les answer to these things. I think that the extent to which Locke Nijjar Bhullar it takes a bit of time to think your way through them is Wong Bloy Suffredine

6362 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003

MacKay Cobb K. Stewart last election a majority of the popular vote translated Visser Lekstrom Brice into a massive majority for one party in the Legislature. As a result, parties like the Greens received a signifi- Sultan Hamilton Sahota cant number of votes but received no seats or elected Hawes Kerr Manhas representatives in the Legislature. Hunter [1545]

On the main motion. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.]

J. Bray: I am proud to rise in support of this motion. The question of electoral reform raised in 1996 has First, I wish to congratulate the Premier, the Attorney not been answered, but it may have been redefined. At General and all members of government for fulfilling times the current debate focuses more on ways of en- what I believe is one of our boldest new-era commit- suring political parties are happy with the number of ments: the establishment of the Citizens Assembly on seats they get on election day, but the fundamental Electoral Reform. goal of elections is not to serve the needs of political For my constituents, the issue of electoral reform parties. The goal of elections is to give citizens a voice and the citizens assembly is very prominent. In discus- in choosing their government. Thus the urgent ques- sions I have had in my community, members of my tion for 1996, 2001 and all elections is: how do we cre- community have had great anticipation that we would ate a system that better serves all the people of the reach this day and that a real process would be devel- province? oped to let the voters review and choose the method of The history of electoral reform in British Columbia electing their MLAs. For me, this is one of my proudest has traditionally focused on enfranchising political days as a legislator. I believe this is a progressive step parties — not enfranchising political parties, rather, but in our vision of parliamentary reform that honours the enfranchising voters. In 1876, for example, B.C. voters rather than serving political parties. dropped property ownership as a qualification to vote, The subject is important because politics comprises thereby expanding the franchise. Forty years later the the institutions, rules and practices which permit and province extended voting rights to women. The voting limit access to state power. Politics, if you will, is the age has been dropped over time from 21 to 18. Even the space between citizens and state. It was W.H. Auden most significant changes in the last ten years have fo- who said: "There is no such thing as the perfect democ- cused on reforming politics to better serve the interests ratic state, good for all time." Our political institutions of voters — for example, the 1995 Recall and Initiative change even when we're not paying attention to them. Act. But as circumstances change, so, too, will our attention Of course, there is also a legislative history of regu- focus from time to time on the need to embrace more lating political parties, culminating in the 1995 Election consciously the project of political reform. Act, a statute which prescribes, in 160 pages of mind- The Premier has mentioned this to some extent, but numbing detail, the way in which we are and are not I wish to review some of the history around how we've permitted to engage in electoral democracy. But the arrived at this day. For many, this particular story be- main focus is, and ought to be, not the political party gins on election night in 1996. The B.C. Liberal Party but the voter. We must re-engage the public in the lost the provincial election by six seats, despite winning whole process around elections, around having repre- a majority of the popular vote. The election may have sentatives and around engaging that communication marked a turning point in B.C.'s political history, be- between government and individuals. We've heard a cause the outcome prompted people of every political lot of talk over the last several years about the disinter- stripe and even people not committed to any political est that young people feel in elections and the electoral party to take a good, long look at their electoral system. process, that various levels of government are seeing Some said the system had failed us. Others argued that declining numbers of people turning out to vote as the will of the people had not been served. There was a they feel the system doesn't reflect their wishes — ergo, call for electoral reform, and that call has never really why should I participate? That is not good for democ- ended. racy; that is not good for the Canadian way of life or Fast-forward, then, to 2001. In the run-up to the the British Columbia way of life. It is time for us to campaign, we told voters it was time for a change — engage in the conversation with British Columbians, by not just a change in the cast of governors but also a British Columbians, for British Columbians about how change in the way government works and a change to re-engage people in the process of elections. even in the institutions of government themselves. In It's not an easy task, but I do believe that we need our campaign platform we committed to changing the to ensure that our inquiry is not limited to a mindset public service, to changing the operations of govern- that automatically identifies partisan representation as ment and to opening up a formal discussion about elec- a benchmark of a successful electoral system. To date, toral reform through the mechanism of a citizens as- our government has amended the Constitution Act to sembly. provide that, barring dissolution for lack of confidence, The results of the last election have, for some, provincial general elections will be held on the second shifted the focus of debate on electoral reform. In the Tuesday in May every four years. Similarly, we have

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6363 followed up the fixed election date reform with laws what's critical — and what I hope to convey during my establishing a fixed date for tabling the provincial comments — is that it's not about just changing the budget and a set legislative calendar. We have also way 1996 may have unfolded or the way 2001 may committed to free votes in the Legislature to permit have unfolded. MLAs to vote freely on behalf of their constituents on What the citizens assembly is going to be reviewing all matters not specifically identified as a vote of confi- is how we hold elections for the next 150 years per- dence. haps, just as we have not really had this process in the This brings us back to the citizens assembly. B.C. is first 150 years. We're not just talking about doing a unique political entity. We are neither New Zealand things for the Liberal Party or the Green Party or the nor Germany nor Israel. Our population is widely dis- NDP Party, because 100 years from now all those par- persed and diverse. We cannot redesign our electoral ties will probably have different names and be talking system without asking ourselves the question: what is about different things, but the voter will still be there. it we expect our MLAs to do? We have to ensure that 50 and 60 years from now, vot- The fundamental objective of the citizens assembly ers aren't so disengaged from the process of elections takes us back to the fundamental objective of electoral that it almost makes it meaningless — that so few peo- reform. To achieve this objective, we believe it neces- ple participate that it is no longer representative of sary to take the question of electoral reform out of the anything but special interests rather than the interests hands of politicians and place it in the hands of people of every British Columbian and every voter. we are elected to serve. The challenge was to find a As a representative of a very active, engaged com- way to create a citizens assembly that effectively repre- munity, the citizens assembly represents a bold move sents the citizens of this province and gives voice to forward in our vision for parliamentary reform. I be- their concerns. lieve that the entire country will watch this process — The motion before us now answers that challenge. the process of citizen involvement, public engagement This motion sets forth the terms of reference that will and democracy. ensure that the process will reflect the views of citizens Today I am proud to be a Member of the Legisla- picked at random, that the system will reflect the views tive Assembly, proud to be a British Columbian and of all regions — urban, semi-urban and rural — and proud to be a Canadian. I encourage all my constitu- that should a change be recommended there is enough ents to contact my office over the weeks and months time for public debate and education before the refer- ahead to learn how to become involved and how they endum question. can make a contribution to this process. [1550] In closing, the electoral system belongs to the peo- I have been very encouraged by the initial response ple. It is only fitting that they should decide how they to the proposed citizens assembly. In fact, I note in my wish to elect MLAs. own community, which has a diverse political spec- trum represented, some very positive feedback. I've Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt: I rise this afternoon in fa- also noticed that we've had some good, positive feed- vour, of course, of Motion 99, the creation of the Citi- back from others in the community. I'd like to just read zens Assembly on Electoral Reform. a few of those examples. It's been almost 150 years since the founding of the From Chris Delaney of the Unity Party: "We sup- colony of British Columbia, and our province has had port the criteria put forward by the B.C. government the same system of electing its government over that for the assembly, especially the requirement that this past almost 150 years. Of course, that system is first be a citizens assembly by not allowing politicians or past the post. Whoever gets the most votes in a riding parties to participate. B.C. Unity feels strongly that all takes that particular riding or that seat. This, of course, political parties are in a conflict of interest with respect is our tradition of the British parliamentary system. It's to recommending electoral system change and that the same across Canada, and it's been the same over they should not try to influence the outcome of the the years in much of the British Commonwealth. assembly." Today, however, it's being used in increasingly I think that is exactly the intent that we're bringing limited numbers of nations around the world and in forward. We're actually removing our own self- states that make up those nations. Today it's still used interest. All political parties and individuals in political in Great Britain. It's used to some extent in the United parties are going to have that self-interest. We remove States, Australia and perhaps, as I said, a few other that from the process. countries. But even in countries like the United States Also, from Fair Voting B.C., I quote from director and particularly Australia — in the particular states Julian West: "The government deserves high marks for that make up those nations — they not only have keeping this election promise and for placing the pub- members of their congress, but they also have a senate lic interest first." as well within each state, which tends to balance off This is why I think this is such a significant step different views within those jurisdictions. forward in our whole vision for parliamentary reform. The first-past-the-post system has indeed stood the We are actually removing our own vested interest from test of time across Canada, because it has brought sta- the process. This will be a citizens assembly that will bility to our governments. We have had relatively few decide for the public how MLAs will be elected, but minority governments in Canada or in British Colum-

6364 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 bia. However, as was stated earlier by other members, for this review is with the people of British Columbia, the drawback is that many parties and people in our randomly selected. Perhaps unfortunately for some of province and in Canada who make up perhaps a us, it's not involving the politicians, as we have a very smaller minority of voters in those constituencies feel strong vested interest and are a little too close to the that their interests are not being served. question. Perhaps first past the post will be chosen as [1555] the best system, and that will be the end of the debate, When we do look around the world, in fact, there but perhaps another system that reflects the diverse are many different methods of elections that are being geography and wide variety of political viewpoints used. Part of the pleasure of the particular portfolio will be recommended to the electorate. That will be up that I hold in intergovernmental relations is the oppor- to the assembly and go to a referendum in 2005. tunity to meet with many ambassadors or consul gen- In conclusion, I wish to congratulate the Premier erals representing those countries around the world. and this government for the courage to bring this mo- Just yesterday I had the opportunity to introduce to tion for electoral reform forward. Certainly, it's part of this Legislature the ambassador from Hungary. I had our New Era election document, and we are living up to the opportunity after that to have a brief meeting with that commitment. I look forward to a lively debate by him. One of the items we did cover, because I knew the citizens assembly and, if the recommendation for this was coming up today, was what system they used change is made, a debate during the referendum pe- in Hungary. It's fascinating, because in a sense it's very riod. new to their nation. I would like to also thank personally Mr. Gordon As we know, when the end of the Cold War came Gibson for his work in preparing his report on the citi- in the late 1980s, Hungary was a one-party state. That's zens assembly and all those British Columbians who what the constitution in fact laid out in that nation. At took the time to provide their input into Mr. Gibson's the end of the eighties they had to sit down and decide report on this very important issue. how they wanted to be governed as a new nation of

Hungary in 1989. M. Hunter: I rise today on what I think is a very A nation of ten million people, fairly small in geo- bright day for democracy in British Columbia. I want graphic area, had a little over 300 deputies in their Leg- to add my thanks to those of some of my colleagues islature. The system they chose was to do half of those who have spoken to the Premier, for his vision in deputies by geographic areas — by riding, if you will bringing this initiative to the state it is now at. I also — and half based on proportional representation. want to offer my thanks to my friend Gordon Gibson There was a caveat that parties had to get 5 percent, at for the enormous public service he has provided in least, of the popular vote in order to qualify for that giving us the basis for this debate and for moving for- proportional representation. If they didn't get that, they ward. were redistributed to other parties on a preferential ballot. That's how they came, as a new nation, to un- [1600] derstand how democracy would work in that country. I have to say that my entry into public life was a bit Sort of the other extreme is Holland. I understand of a surprise to me in many senses, but I made the leap that in that country, there are no ridings per se. It's all because, like many of my co-citizens, I was jaded and I done by proportional representation. Perhaps in a was cynical about the state of our public institutions country that small in terms of geographic area that and what was happening to them. I was attracted to system could work well for them. public life by a political party and a leader who prom- The country of New Zealand was mentioned by the ised to put the people's interest first. Really, today I rise Leader of the Opposition a few minutes ago. It brought on this motion because I just can't forgo the opportu- in a combination of geographical ridings and propor- nity to speak on a subject that is extremely important tional representation back in 1993. Each person in each and that affected my personal life by bringing me here. one of those ridings gets two ballots — one for their This is a very important landmark step that we are local member and one for the party list that comes out making in our promise to provide open government. that they wish to vote for. The charge we are giving our fellow citizens, whoever The thing that intrigued me about New Zealand they may be — those who will comprise the assembly was that they were perhaps wise enough to build into — is indeed, as other members have stated, a serious this change they brought in that they would review it one. The right to vote is one that was hard won, it was after two or three elections to see how it worked out. hard fought, and it has been hard defended over many, The population would have a chance to perhaps have many years. In fact, it is a right, as we know it, that another referendum, after two or three elections stretches back in my culture 400 years. Four hundred passed, to see if they were comfortable with that sys- years ago or more, my forefathers fought a civil war to tem or whether they wanted to go back to their old establish the right of the people to govern themselves system. That's something that the citizens assembly under the guidance, not the rule, of the monarch. It is might think about. why we sit here in this chamber two swords' length This motion on the citizens assembly offers us a apart. That's a result of the civil war. It is a right that I chance to have a fresh look at our electoral methods in think about every time I enter this chamber. And I British Columbia. Most importantly, the responsibility think anybody who tells you they don't have a certain

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6365 feeling or emotion about being here…. I don't think tainly said that this year was going to be the year of they should be here. forestry. Although I believe this particular initiative, Four hundred years later in our corner of the world Motion 99, has not had, perhaps, the press that some of we are now going about asking how our right to vote the forestry innovations we have moved ahead on have should be exercised and how, in effect, we govern our- had, I think that really it will change the face of the selves. I know that there are many examples of differ- history of this province more than anything else. ent voting systems and democratic systems based on There are some very, very exciting parts of this mo- British or French or American models. I'm sure the tion. I think the fact that we are engaging all of British assembly will examine proportional representation in Columbia in the process and that every individual who all its forms. It will examine runoff votes. It will exam- would like to have their thoughts and feelings and ine first past the post and others. emotions about our voting system addressed will have But at the end of the day, I really hope the assembly that ability…. In fact, I have received more e-mails will look at stability of governance and how any pro- from volunteers, individuals who actually didn't un- posals they may develop affect the stability of how we derstand how the selection process would work for the govern ourselves, because voting mechanisms can af- citizens assembly…. I've had many, many individuals fect and have affected that important part of this insti- already, just in the last 48 hours or so, volunteer to sit tutional structure. I believe the double majority system on this committee, because they feel that it's such a that is part of this motion is an important safeguard to significant initiative we're taking. I've had to break the ensure that if any changes are recommended, they will bad news to them that, in fact, the citizens assembly be clearly understood and clearly approved by the will be selected similarly to the way a jury is selected. people. I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense to Mr. Speaker, the time will come for discussions on exclude the people that are closest to the political sys- technical issues, and I can assure you and my col- tem. I think we need to open it up to all of our citi- leagues that I intend to submit my views, which I hold zenry, especially the individuals that will be impacted quite strongly, and I hope other citizens will express by this. their views strongly as well. That's not what this debate It's a very, very exciting time. It is historic, in my today is about, and we could spend an awful lot of view. It's something that I am very proud to be part of time discussing the merits. Indeed, this is why we have and that I fully support. I think it's integral to our a citizens assembly to talk about those technical issues. model of governance. I think it's absolutely critical that What is important today is that we are breaking a we move ahead. This building that we stand in today mould in Canada. The citizens assembly moves this has been open for about 106 years, and we haven't province away from the Meech Lake and Charlottetown changed our voting system in 106 years. I think the fact we-know-it-all-and-we'll-tell-you-what's-best approach to that this government is willing to actually have a look constitutional reform. That approach did not serve this at something that will dynamically change the way our country, did not serve this province. Here the people are representatives are elected is truly a comment on our going to decide the future of how they will exercise that openness and our willingness to do the right thing for hard-won right to vote. I am proud to support this motion the people of British Columbia, as opposed to the right and to be part of the evolution of democracy in British thing for the politicians that are here. Columbia. Make no mistake. Every government before us has had the ability to do what we are doing here today. P. Bell: I think this motion, being numbered Motion Every single government that has sat in this particular 99, is truly symbolic of something — certainly of the Legislature for the last 106 years, and the ones going greatest hockey player that we all know and love. In back before that, had the ability to make the decision my view, 99 years from now people will look back at that the Premier and the Attorney General have deliv- today as a historic day in the province. And I'm not so ered on here today, and yet none have been so brave as sure that this won't be a historic day, in fact, for de- to do so. I believe that you have to be brave to make mocracy. the type of decision that we are making here today, There are many bold moves this government has because under many of the new voting systems, if they taken in its first just under two years of office, but none are so chosen, there may be many of us that aren't here more bold than this particular one. Perhaps when in in the future. You know, if we're doing it for the right the year 2103 we look back at today, we'll see that reasons — if we're doing it because it provides for bet- we've truly changed the face of democracy. And I think ter representation — then I think it's the right thing to that's a good thing. do, and I fully support that. [1605] I am going to eagerly follow the process and moni- We've evolved as a society. We've accepted our tor the functionality of the citizens assembly. I think it current electoral systems and all the history that goes is an absolutely wonderful thing. I congratulate the along with them. But no one has actually taken the Premier for his vision in moving forward on this elec- time or thought to sit down and allow our citizens to tion commitment. I most certainly congratulate the decide for themselves what the best electoral system is Attorney General for his vision and his dedication and for governance here in British Columbia. I think that his very, very hard work on this. I think he's found an when you look at all the changes…. The Premier cer- excellent balance. I believe he's brought regionalism

6366 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 into the equation, which I think is significant and im- small communities that I represent, express a feeling of portant. I fully support the notion of the 60 percent disenfranchisement. It's been said that there is to be support for passage. I think that makes a tremendous selection based on the same system that the jury system amount of sense. This is a huge decision, not one to be works. Now, as you may know, I attended many a jury taken lightly, and I think it has to be supported trial, and in all the years I practised law, there was only broadly. one occasion where a jury was unable to come to a re- I think the Attorney General has done a wonderful sult — one occasion in close to 30 years where a jury job here. I fully support this. I am proud to be part of a was unable to come to a result — and that was the first Legislature that has the type of vision and the willing- time in the courts in the Kootenays in 45 years that had ness to move forward on the difficult decisions that happened. Simply put, I know the jury system works, we're faced with here today. and I know this method of selection offers us some [1610] strong prospects. I know it's a risk for me as a member that we're B. Suffredine: I rise in support of the motion as going to change the system, and the system that elected well. I saw something just a little while ago today that me may not elect me if we change the method of vot- emphasized to me how important people in small ing. But it's a risk I'm willing to take — and I'll take communities feel this is. The announcement was only very willingly — to improve the confidence of all the made at noon on Monday of our intention to proceed people who vote in our system and our system of gov- on this, and already today there was an editorial pub- ernment. Making them feel empowered is the most lished in the Arrow Lakes News in Nakusp strongly important thing we can do, and I congratulate the At- supporting the concept and suggesting that the citizens torney General for taking this rather bold initiative. assembly is worth the time and expense. In my view, if people in small communities in a short time frame can B. Bennett: I rise to speak in support of the motion, quickly recognize how important it is to them, that says Motion 99. It's my honour to do so. volumes as to how much they appreciate government I think that in addition to speaking in support of listening. the actual motion, we're all today — from what I can It's a very bold step. I was one of the members hear — speaking in support of what the motion stands elected to this Legislature with less than 50 percent of for. It stands for people who are elected — who have a the voting majority. Since my election, there have been vested interest in supporting an existing process — a number of people who have advocated proportional being prepared to put that process to a test and, for a representation. They ran a bit of a referendum of sorts change, to allow the public to decide whether that's the in my riding, and it probably had the strongest number appropriate process or not. of people anywhere in the province supporting that [1615] system of representation. But the question of what the I went on to the Net today just trying to find some best system is isn't something we should be telling the information about citizens assemblies, and I was really citizens assembly. I know they advocate that, because surprised at the amount of information that there is on right now we have the system of who gets the most the Net from around the world. There are many, many votes, even if that's not a majority. people around the world today who are concerned If we were looking at something like proportional about the state of modern democracy. I picked up one representation, do we then translate that into a state- piece that I thought was quite good and quite represen- ment of: if someone gets 1 or 2 or 3 percent of the vote, tative of the mood out there, I guess. It's from a group do they get 1 or 2 or 3 percent of representation in this in Toronto, the citizens assembly for Toronto. I'll just House? Is that the natural way of getting a House that give you a short quote from what those folks are say- can never make those hard decisions? Should we be ing. looking, for example, at a preferential ballot where we "Democracy is supposed to be government of the get a one, two and three choice? How do we ensure people…. Power is increasingly concentrated at the that opposition is heard without paralyzing the Legis- top…. lature? "Public hearings on issues are getting scarce…." This Legislature has to, on occasion, wrestle with Certainly not true here in B.C., but apparently it is there. difficult choices. I was one of the members, as well, "Parliament is becoming irrelevant, and now people who recently went through a recall campaign, and are saying that even cabinet is powerless. Nearly all decisions are made by the Prime Minister and his recall there was being used to intimidate members of advisers, the Premier and his consultants or the mayor government to not support the government. The and his city staff. In this sense, we don't live in a system of voting has to be a fair system that lets that representative democracy anymore. We live under representation occur and encourages members to use elected dictators at the federal, provincial and municipal their judgment. levels, our only role being to vote in elections controlled and manipulated by public relations people…." [H. Long in the chair.] You wonder sometimes how we got here, how we got to this sort of attitude that I think all of us run into What's most important about it is that we restore in our ridings. There is a tremendously high level of trust. People around the country, particularly in the cynicism out there, and I guess that's one of the reasons

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6367 why many of us came here in the first place. We to win or gain, other than they want to make a contri- wanted to be a voice for those folks out there that feel bution, I think, to democracy in this country. disenfranchised and alienated from what they view as [1620] the centre of power. It's a historic, precedent-setting motion. It's a his- I think this government's commitment to depoliti- toric, precedent-setting exercise to enter into. I think it's cize our approach to the citizens assembly is something unheard of anywhere across this country, certainly. It's that we should be inordinately proud of, and I'm per- an indication that this government trusts the people. sonally very proud of it. Specifically, what I'm referring We know that there is wisdom in the people. I believe to…. Mr. Gibson made several specific recommenda- entirely that there is wisdom in the people. I am com- tions, and then government dealt individually with pletely willing to allow the people of this province to those recommendations, accepted most of them and come together through the citizens assembly and to made some changes to some of them. I want to refer decide whether the method for electing members in specifically to some of the recommendations that Mr. British Columbia that we have today is appropriate or Gibson made, which were altered by this government whether we should move to another method for elect- — and I think rightly so — on the basis of principle. I ing members. refer specifically to the selection process and also to Once again, I do want to thank the Premier for his eligibility. Under the selection process, Mr. Gibson leadership because I know he drove this issue. I'm very recommended that there ought to be election by peers proud of him for doing that, and I'm glad to be part of to raise equality of the constituent assembly member- a team that has the intestinal fortitude to do this. ship. Government decided that there would be regional selection meetings, but the selection would be by ran- Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks, Mr. Speaker — and to dom sample only, and the reason given for the differ- the members, to the Attorney General and to the Pre- ence is that voting by peers introduces an element of mier, of course, for initiating a process that gives me a electioneering into the process and moves away from reason to be on my feet today to do something I don't the random model. I think that's true to the principle often do. I believe so passionately in the exercise that is that we're following in creating this citizens assembly. beginning, and will begin, as a result of the passage of Also under selection process, Mr. Gibson recom- this motion that I did want to register for all time in the mended that one member per riding be selected and pages we call Hansard my complete support for what is then 21 more members be selected from those not ini- taking place here. tially successful. The government decision was for two It has occurred to me that as we all go about our citizens assembly members per riding for a total of 158, business — the Attorney General as the chief lawmaker and no top-up power for the chair, which was sug- and negotiating treaties; the Premier and all the things gested by the opposition in the opposition's request for that he does; and each member of this House meeting an amendment earlier this afternoon. I think, with all with constituents, engaged in volunteer activities in due respect to the opposition in suggesting that their communities, trying to stay in touch with as many amendment, that perhaps the opposition doesn't quite people as possible, dealing with the issues on a day-to- get it. We really are trying to remove all potential for day basis…. Those things that are so important to the politics and control, and, I think quite rightly, we're people we represent, therefore important to us, and we trying to remove any appearance that we have any try to understand the problems that our constituents ideas of a preconceived outcome of this exercise. face…. It's very difficult. It's difficult at a very practical I ran into a former member of the Legislature. He level to think about some of the larger issues. was here a number of years ago. In fact, he was a Is there anything larger when it comes to politics, member of cabinet. We met at a social function, and we when it comes to democracy, than examining how it is got talking about the citizens assembly and this initia- that we elect the people who represent us? Other tive, this commitment that we had made in the New Era speakers have made these observations. I don't want to document under the Premier's leadership. This former take an unnecessary amount of time. It is an interesting member really couldn't understand why we were do- phenomenon — isn't it? I was thinking about this the ing this. He said to me: "What are you guys doing? other day as I was driving down the road, and I have You're opening yourself up to a result that you can't been thinking about this a lot, because, of course, none control." I told him that that actually is the point of this of us knows what's going to emerge out of the other exercise. We want the people to tell us what they think end of the pipe. about how members should be sent to this Legislature. Imagine that. Imagine a government initiating a It's an honour, a personal honour, to support the process legitimately — and something as important as motion. To pick up a little bit on what the member for this — and saying, as the member for East Kootenay just Prince George North indicated, this happens to be Mo- did: "I don't know what's going to emerge, and I won't tion 99. I assume that's just accidental, but it does hap- be able to control it, and the party that holds virtually all pen to be the old number for The Great One. I think of the seats in the Legislature won't have control over The Great One, Wayne Gretzky, would be proud of that process. We're turning the people loose to make this. This is, I think, a typically Canadian initiative. We some fundamentally important decisions." are prepared to allow people who are not in politics, I was thinking about how it is that politicians come who don't have a vested interest…. They have nothing to places like this. I think all of us have our own indi-

6368 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 vidual story to tell. It usually begins by being a mem- cast any amount of disrespect on this chamber, which ber of society — working, going to school, raising a is a product of a longstanding democratic history and family — and government does something, and you an institution that can trace its roots back to Westmin- say: "God, how could anyone be so stupid? How could ster, but it is, I think, a reflection of the reality that ex- a government make such a stupid decision?" That fol- ists in the minds of many members of the public. lows on another stupid decision and then another stu- As other members have said in this debate, today pid decision. we are passing a motion that says to one and all: it's Then you begin to question the institution itself. time to put up or shut up. You can be involved in re- Maybe it's just because it's a stupid institution. Then you creating one of your most important political institu- say: "Well, I'm going to change that. I'm going to try and tions — that is, by being involved in reforming, if you change that." A necessary component, prerequisite to choose to, the manner in which you elect people to that wanting to change it, is that you've got to join the club. political institution. Pretty heady stuff — big stuff. So you throw your name in. Maybe you join a party, or It's a debate that I think will, over time, engage the maybe you're already a member of a party. You decide attention of many people with many different ideas. It to get some friends together, and you run for a nomina- won't be politicians. We're members of another club tion. now. We're members of the club that can't be involved [1625] in reforming electoral laws or the manner in which we If you're lucky, you win the nomination, and then elect people to this institution. Anyone that's been in- you run in an election. All the while, in the back of volved in politics or has run for public office in the last your mind you're thinking to yourself: "God, you couple of elections is precluded because we — the know, I have to make so many changes. The reason I'm Premier, the Attorney General, I think the members of here is because that other government, the one I'm this House — actually said that we want to have the running against, made all these stupid decisions. Look unvarnished views of the unbiased and the benefit of at what they do over in Victoria or in Ottawa or in Ed- the views of British Columbians. We've initiated a monton — in any one of the capitals. The whole thing process that will let that happen. is not working. Now I'm going to go over there and [1630] change that." Then lo and behold, you put your name on a ballot, We've said to British Columbians that if that body and you run in an election campaign, and you have 28 of 158-plus-one British Columbians makes a recom- days of fun. You go to all-candidates meetings, and on mendation for change — and we don't know what that election night when you've got a box of Cheezies on recommendation is going to be — you're going to get a one side and some potato chips on the other and a chance to vote on it on May 17, 2005. On May 17, 2005, whole bunch of your friends in the room, the guy if that body of British Columbians has a recommenda- comes on TV and says you've been elected. tion to change the way we elect our politicians, every Maybe you have a glass of champagne to celebrate single British Columbian that is eligible to vote will — or tea, in my case — and you say: "Look at this. I've have a say in determining whether or not that becomes been elected." Almost overnight a transformation be- the law. gins, because you walk into this chamber, this democ- I think it is an exercise that will reinvigorate our ratic institution, and you're a member of a pretty exclu- democratic process, and I think others have articulated sive club to represent British Columbians. As you walk their pride and their support. I'm just thrilled to be a down the corridors here — you know, there haven't member of a government that has the courage to follow been that many members of this club in 130 years — through on a very specific pledge — but, you know, suddenly you begin to think: "Well, you know, maybe parties make pledges — to follow through on a com- it's not so bad after all. I mean, how bad could it be? mitment to put the fate of the politicians, the members I'm here." and the institution itself back into the hands of the It's natural. You begin to think to yourself: "Well, all people it was designed to serve. of those problems I had with the…. Maybe I didn't We will await the deliberations of this body with understand, because, you know, the people were smart interest and the recommendations that it presents. I can enough to elect me." You know, Mr. Speaker, I've been tell you this, and I wanted to say this today, because here a while, almost ten years now, and that same when I think of all the things that I have said over ten sense that I think I had — and that I heard from people years in this chamber, I'm not sure a lot of those back then about their level of disconnection with the speeches are things I'll ever want to reread ten or 20 or institutions that create the laws that govern them — 30 years from now, when this place may look very dif- still exists. In fact, I think it has become exacerbated, ferent — or maybe not — and I'm bringing my kids or not necessarily because of anything any single gov- grandkids through here. I'm just vain enough that I ernment has done, but it is a feeling that has developed might pull a dusty old volume of Hansard off the table over the years. or the shelf and say: "You know, the impetus for that When the institutions themselves begin to lose le- change came on April 30. The mechanism that allowed gitimacy in the eyes of the public they are designed to for that change came on April 30 from a government serve, then we have a problem. That, I'm sad to say, is that had the courage to put this institution back into where I believe we are today. That is not designed to the hands of the people it is designed to serve." I'm

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6369 pretty darn proud of that, and I'm supporting the mo- stick makers of our fine province; and let them decide tion. what our future system of governance will be. The people who framed this radically democratic notion — R. Sultan: Inspired by the remarks of the member from Gordon Gibson, the Premier, the Attorney Gen- for Abbotsford–Mount Lehman, I have requested to be eral and the framers of the B.C. Liberal Party's set of inserted into the speaking order because this is, indeed, election promises — I think deserve lasting praise. This an important occasion. will be this government's enduring legacy. I would like to begin by complimenting the Premier and the Attorney General. I would like to begin by G. Trumper: I am pleased to rise today to speak to complimenting the B.C. Liberal Party, which inserted the motion. Following on the comments of my es- this concept into their election plank and which has teemed colleague sitting behind me, I know that over followed through on that promise with the mandate to the years that I've been involved in politics, on many Gordon Gibson, a truly distinguished British Colum- occasions I have been the only woman amongst the bian, to develop this concept of the citizens assembly. group. On some occasions there may be a few more, This is a historic moment. Will this Legislature be but usually his statement is quite correct — that the remembered for passing the coalbed methane act as balance sometimes seems to be very skewed. history evolves? Will it be remembered for the debate This is a very special day, and it is a decision that I on the deadline inherent in Fair Pharmacare, or will it have looked at over the years. It's been one of my inter- be remembered for one of the myriad of miscellaneous ests in my spare time to have looked at electoral re- statutes bills that our Attorney General has presented form. A few years ago I was very fortunate to be at a to us with great excitement from time to time? I don't breakfast meeting with the ambassador from the think so. What this Legislature will be remembered for United Kingdom, and we got discussing electoral re- will be its act of generosity and risk-taking in putting form. He very kindly sent me all the information on the forward a bill to really reconstitute our system of de- electoral reform that took place in Scotland, which I do mocracy in British Columbia. have. I found it fascinating, and I've had the opportu- [1635] nity to talk to people about what their feelings are Many would say, as others have pointed out, that when I've been back in the United Kingdom. As you all Canadian democracy today is not really in the finest con- realize, that was the land of my birth. I was brought up dition. Some would say that it is flawed. We seem to have on the British parliamentary system from which our a tendency in some quarters to operate according to a system has evolved. As the system has evolved over model of what might to some be perceived as a one-party the centuries, so the system has evolved in Canada. state. We have a tradition, the academicians point out, of Today we are at another stage, where I believe we are choosing elitist solutions to our problems. Perhaps com- evolving once again. pared to others around the world, we don't really, truly [1640] feel that democratic when it comes right down to issues of This democracy is something that we hold dear in this governance. This has been an enduring Canadian issue country. Sometimes I believe that we take it for granted, from the Family Compact to the situation we observe in when we know that there are many countries, as has been our senior government today. The result, I agree, as others said before, that do not have the democratic rights that we have pointed out, has been encouragement of political have. Too often it is true that elections — be they local, indifference, low voter turnouts, a disconnect between the federal, provincial — take place with not even 50 percent voters and the government, and a decay of the govern- of the electorate turning out. That is a very sad state of ment model which has motivated western civilization, affairs, because if we were ever to lose that right, it would really, from Athens to Westminster. be a very, very sad day for Canada. This is an unfortunate situation and one that I This is an opportunity for the people of British Co- think, when we turn our minds to it, we should dispar- lumbia to have a say in how they want to see their gov- age. The old Canadian model of appointing a royal ernment run and how they want to be represented. It commission or a committee of wise men with a few isn't often that that can happen. I believe today is a day token women sprinkled in — a model which, curi- that will go down in history as taking the first step in ously, always seems to end up with people of the same letting the citizens of British Columbia choose how gender, by and large, who went to the same school, they want our elections to take place, how they want to drawn from the same neighbourhood, representing the be represented. If they see that changes are to be made, same point of view, and who even were members of we have made the commitment that it will be on the the same club — is a model that I think has run its ballot in 2005. course. But too often this has been the Canadian way. There isn't another jurisdiction in this country that has The radical notion motivating the Premier — and taken this step. The comment was made just recently, after I'm sure motivating the Attorney General, this party the provincial election in , that the successful party and in due course, I am confident, this House — is a is in with, I believe, 44 percent of the vote. That issue came very radical notion and a very different notion in our up again about electoral reform there, and it's been Canadian history. The notion is: trust the people. brought up by some of the parties there. Trust the people. Here we have a scheme to draw We have no idea what discussion and recommen- lots; choose from the butchers, the bakers, the candle- dations are going to take place by the citizens assem-

6370 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 bly. It is a very brave step, I believe, that we are taking. think it's about time that somebody in this country did We have no idea what is going to come out at the end that, and I think our province, our Premier, our Attor- of the discussions, but the Premier, before we were ney General, our cabinet and our caucus have taken the elected in the election, made this promise. We were most important step. committed that we would bring this forth in this ses- Now it's up to the public to decide how they want sion, and I do want to thank both the Premier and the to govern themselves. I truly believe that we should Attorney General for having the fortitude to go for- trust them, because we are one of them, and if they ward with this, to be able to put it in place, to have it trust us, we should do the same thing. I think, in the today. modern world, we have to move on and look at all the I know that as history goes down, in many years options possible, and let's see how the public will make ahead many of the discussions that take place in this their decision. House…. We all know what some of them are like at It's really strange that a group of people in this times. Some of them are very serious. Some of them are House…. Basically, we are phasing ourselves out of not always of the highest calibre. Some of the decisions our jobs. This can happen. That's truly remarkable. I may sometimes be what one would like to look back on think that's a true democratic process, because we are and maybe have made a different decision. That goes only the temporary custodians of a great democratic right through any government that is in power. But I process, and we should be respectful of that process. do believe that today is a day that will go down in his- That's the one reason that I am involved in politics. I tory and that I and people from future generations will want to do my part, and part of my responsibility is to be able to look back on and say this was the day we express my personal feelings about this motion and gave the citizens of British Columbia a chance and an support this motion wholeheartedly. opportunity to chart our future. I am very pleased to be able to speak to this. Hon. G. Plant: I rise to close debate. When I came here this afternoon, I came here to Hon. G. Cheema: I would also like to say a few listen. When I come into this room to listen, I usually words about this motion. I had no plan, but since I learn, and I've learned a lot. It's been a great privilege heard my colleagues…. I think this is, again, a rare op- in my life to have the opportunity to come here. Today portunity for me to stand in this House and support I feel a certain sense of responsibility that we are doing this motion. something that is important. I have to say that it will be I look at the democratic process from a different our successors that will judge the importance of what angle. I was brought up in another nation. I came to we do here today as much as any other day. But there this country 23 years ago. I had the honour and privi- is, I think, something special and pretty marvellous lege to serve in two provinces. I have seen the Meech about this initiative. Lake debate. I was in the Manitoba Legislature at the I guess what I wanted to do to begin my remarks, time when Meech Lake died. I was in the assembly while I'm thinking about whether there's anything I when the died. I saw how the could possibly say to add to the marvellous things my political process and the electoral process can be very colleagues have said on the floor of this assembly this misleading. I realized, as a student of politics, how all afternoon, is to think a little bit about some of the peo- of a sudden, when you get elected, you become an ex- ple who have helped make possible the initiative that is pert on every issue under the sun. Then when we come presented here today and also a little bit about the to the institutions, we think we know better than every- people who will find their lives are going to change in body else. I think that kind of attitude does not help the ways they don't yet actually know about if the House public and does not create a level of trust. decides to pass this motion. [1645] [1650] People elect us on the basis of the system we have. I first of all want to say that as a member of cabinet, If I look at myself, every time I got elected there was I am maybe a bit more than a foot soldier but not much only one-third of the population supporting me. Basi- more than a lieutenant in an infantry battalion that's cally, I was not working for the rest of the two-thirds of led by the fellow who sits on my right, the Premier. I the population, considering only 68 to 70 percent of can remember and will always remember the day I first people vote in this country. If you get 25 to 30 percent heard him give expression to the idea of a citizens as- of the real votes, you get in, and that's not the real de- sembly. I was struck then, as I am today, by what I mocratic process. In my view, you need to have a dif- believe is the fundamental brilliance of an idea that ferent kind of democracy where people can have more recognizes this is an issue we need to give up our con- say and where you should be able to come to this trol over as politicians and to give control to citizens House with a majority vote. That's my personal opin- themselves. I want to say a little bit more about some of ion. I think we should explore all the possibilities. the ideas that underlie that thought when I finish When I ran in 1996 with this party and again in thinking about some of the people who have helped 2001, this is one of the things I really liked. As one of make this possible. my colleagues was saying, people will not remember My own journey in the discovery of the questions us for all the other things we do, but they will remem- about how we're governed is as long, I'm sure, as the ber us for this very important step we have taken. I journey of most folks here in this assembly, but in re-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6371 cent years it's included some amazing experiences. I was a good one. It helped us, as a government, to had lunch with Baroness Gould of Potternewton in the shape our response to those recommendations in a way House of Lords dining room three years ago, and she that stayed true to the main principles underlying the told me with great excitement about the Jenkins com- Premier's idea — the Premier's brilliant idea — which mission, the work that had been done in the U.K. to is to say we want to constitute, as randomly as possi- explore whether or not even that institution could re- ble, a group of citizens that is as representative as pos- invent itself. sible to come together to talk, to learn, to think, to listen I remember meeting Nick Loenen — he'll forgive and to travel the province and ask themselves whether me if I say it may have been weekly — in my constitu- the way we elect our members is the right system and, ency office. It wasn't weekly, but it was on many occa- if they think there is a better alternative, then to offer sions, as he made clear to me the need for us to take that alternative. Then we would, in turn, offer it to the seriously this issue and over time infused me with just people of British Columbia in a provincewide referen- a small measure of his passion for this question. dum. I remember a marvellous conversation with Adri- So, yes, we fine-tuned some of Mr. Gibson's re- ane Carr, sitting on a sofa in a hotel in Courtenay last commendations, but I think we did so in a way that year, meeting a member of the New Zealand Legisla- holds true to the spirit of the basic project and I think ture, and getting some sense of Adriane's passion for holds true to the basic principles that Mr. Gibson fol- this and learning a lot about what New Zealand has lowed in doing his report. So, thanks to him. Thanks to done. all those who spoke with him and helped him do the I believe fundamentally that our institutions are work that he had to do, and thanks, frankly, to all of sound. But I think this process that will ask us to stand the members of the assembly who have offered me back while ordinary British Columbians take charge of ideas and thoughts over the last couple of months as the question of whether there are changes that we can we have studied this report — and I mean all of the make to them is a hugely important step at this time in members of the assembly. the political history of British Columbia. The Leader of the Opposition referred in her re- I also have learned much, over more years than he marks to the fact that she had made a couple of sugges- would want me to remember, about lots of things tions about the way this process should work, and she about how we're governed from Gordon Gibson. I did indeed. We have brought forward motions here think, in particular, we've all learned a lot over the last that respond to her suggestions. The goal is to try to year or so from Gordon Gibson about this particular have this process set sail from this room in a way that issue. I really want to echo the words of my colleagues is as broadly reflective of the interests of all of the par- this afternoon by saying thank you to Gordon Gibson ties represented here as we could make it — that is, in for his work in preparing a report that we have used as short, as non-partisan as we can make it. I know that the blueprint for establishing the assembly in the way when this little ship sets sail, we are going to start a that this motion contemplates. conversation that will take on a shape and a dimension One of the things that I thought was useful and that we can barely discern at present but I suspect will insightful about Mr. Gibson's report is the way in grow and, like all conversations about important issues which it made clear that while the concept is a pretty in British Columbia, will become a vigorous discussion. easy one to wrap your head around, the idea of how I expect that over the months and years to come, you can create an assembly that respects the principle we're going to hear strong ideas about how we should of randomness, that can work within reasonable finan- be governed, how we are governed and whether this cial limits according to a meaningful timetable, is actu- assembly is the right tool for thinking about those ally a piece of work that requires a measure of pretty questions. I, frankly, think that we need to be prepared detailed policy analysis. I want to thank all of the peo- for that. We need to welcome that when it happens, ple who took the time to offer their ideas, thoughts and because the vigorousness of the discussion will help us suggestions to Gordon Gibson in the course of his all as citizens think more clearly about the issues that work, and I want to congratulate him on the way he we're going to be confronted with as this assembly has managed to synthesize all of those ideas into a re- does its work. port that I think established a very useful blueprint. Let me move from the business of thanking the [1655] people who have helped make this little exercise here It was the case that many of us who read the report, today possible. That, I must say, includes all the folks I think, had our awareness awakened into the details in my ministry who both helped Mr. Gibson and have and the mechanics. The moment that happens, I think, helped me do the policy work that's an important part is a moment where all of us as people of experience, if of this stuff. I really want to thank those folks too. not also perhaps intelligence, start to rethink to some Let me move from that for a minute or two to offer extent our own answers to some of those questions. I my expression of good wishes to those who will as- thought that the process government followed over the sume responsibilities as a result of this work. As you past number of months, which involved a couple of know, Mr. Speaker, we're going to be debating a mo- good conversations with Mr. Gibson and tried to probe tion after this one where we constitute a select commit- him a little bit about what were the underlying princi- tee of the Legislature. Assuming now that the commit- ples behind some of the detailed recommendations, tee is constituted, I want to wish all the members of

6372 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 that committee Godspeed and good luck as they do to debate, pass legislation, give the government per- their work. In particular, I want to express now my mission to spend money, hold the government to ac- appreciation to Jack Blaney for having even agreed to count for its decisions. But there is this question of consider doing this and to wish him well as he under- what our relationship is as members of this assembly to takes this serious responsibility. the people of the province and whether we see that in [1700] terms of a relationship that we have as constituency There will be staff. There will be employees of this MLAs to the citizens in our constituencies or as gov- assembly. It will not be evanescent. It will not be a will- ernment ministers with an interest in thinking about o'-the-wisp. It will be a significant institution — albeit a the larger public of British Columbia. Maybe it's a bit of temporary one — but it will consume public resources, both. and so for all of the people who will help support that [1705] institution, I wish you well. Most of all, I want to think What is it that we think is our duty of service when for a minute or two about the 158 British Columbians we seek and, if we're successful, accept the opportunity who will eventually become members of the assembly of service provided by a successful election outcome? If or maybe, for a minute or two, think of what could be a we could sit down for a moment and think about that thousand or 2,000 British Columbians who over the question, we might come up with different answers in course of the next few months — probably not until the this chamber. I suspect we would. I suspect right- fall, but sometime in the fall — are all going to be in thinking people in any democracy would come up their homes, sitting doing other things, when the with different answers to those questions. But what's phone will ring some day. Someone will say: "I'm so- interesting about this process is that it's going to give and-so. I'm calling on behalf of the Citizens Assembly some citizens an opportunity to think about how that on Electoral Reform. If you don't know what the as- might change. That, to me, is when we start to get sembly is, here's what it is. Here's what it's about. Are down to the level of the more fundamental issues that you interested in participating?" Through a process are going to be embraced by this citizens assembly. established in the terms of reference before the House If we just think in terms of electoral mechanics, I today that takes root in Mr. Gibson's recommendations think we're missing something. There may be different and which will ultimately be shaped by the chair, we ideas of representativeness. There may be different will end up with 158 ordinary British Columbians. ideas of obligation, duty and service — different con- Those people will have a very, very interesting job and nections between those who sit in this chamber and the some pretty darned important responsibilities indeed. four million or more British Columbians that would be I was thinking, and have been thinking for a long created over time, if we were to change the way in time, about what this idea of electoral reform is all which people are elected. about. I've been thinking about it particularly from the I know that even if we don't change the way in perspective of what we're asking the members of this which we elect our politicians, those relationships assembly to do and think about. Oftentimes I think — change over time anyway. The status quo is never and perhaps those of us who are politicians, particu- more than yesterday's answer to a problem that some- larly, most often think — about the idea of electoral one thought about then. Everyday, in the way we do reform in terms of the basic mechanics of how votes are our business in this chamber, we redefine what it counted in constituencies to produce an elected mem- means to have a relationship with those we are elected ber of this assembly. We know about the fact that there to serve and what it means to be accountable. are different systems for electing members in other Are we here as the mere delegates of the popular parts of the world. We know that there are different will of the majority of our constituents? Are we here as ways, therefore, of bringing people into this room. their representatives, free to make decisions according We most often think, though, about this issue from to our own best judgment? Are we here only because the perspective of what electoral reform might mean to we are subscribers to a party platform that we are political parties. That is, we tend to see this issue bound to implement? Are we here to exercise inde- through the lens of its impact on the distribution and pendent free will on these issues? representation of political parties in our system. That, I There are people who have, and text books that will think, is a hugely important part of this exercise, but it give us, good answers to these questions. What the seems to me that if that were the extent to which the citizens assembly will do is give 158 people the oppor- assembly considered the issue of electoral reform, there tunity to think about how to change that — to ask the would have been a lost opportunity. This is not just an question whether those relationships that exist now are opportunity to think about how we can count up bal- the right ones, whether they are adequate to meet the lots differently to produce different configurations of task of governing British Columbia in the twenty-first political parties in this chamber or, alternatively, century. choose to maintain a status quo which, after all, has That, I guess, takes me to the second set of ques- served the public interest of the people of British Co- tions. What does it mean to govern British Columbia? lumbia pretty well for 145 years. What is it we want government to do for us when we For me it also has to do with questions like: what is say to 79 men and women: "Go to Victoria and be our the role of a member of this assembly? What is it that members of the Legislature"? What is it we want them we do when we come here? Obviously, we come here to do for us in terms of governing the province? It's not

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6373 just about our relationship as individuals. What are we decide are important to determine these issues, they here to do collectively? I think those questions are also will decide to adopt — a marvellously time-honoured engaged, in some way, by this project called the citi- phrase…. They will decide that for all of its flaws, the zens assembly. status quo is the least offensive of the options. As you ask those questions, I suppose another way I think perhaps one of the other great virtues of this of asking similar questions is to say: what is it that a idea is that it preserves intact the possibility that ordi- vote means? What is it that a vote means to me as a nary citizens, properly instructed and reasonably moti- citizen of British Columbia? What should it mean to us vated, may decide that the way we do things, the way as citizens of British Columbia? What should it trans- we elect our MLAs, is the best possible way not just for late into? yesterday and not just for today but also for tomorrow. The people who understand the first-past-the-post This assembly will have the option of making and system will talk about the challenge of determining reaching that decision. what the effect is of a vote cast for the unsuccessful If they decide there is a model that the assembly candidate in a constituency election. Some of my col- believes would be a better way of reaching a result, a leagues this afternoon have spoken about that ques- better way of answering their questions of what de- tion. It's an interesting question. There are different mocracy should mean in British Columbia, then we'll ways of deciding what a vote should count for and all get a chance to vote, and we'll all be in for a heck of what it should not count for. That is, I suppose, ulti- a ride come May 17, 2005, when we go into the ballot mately the question that this assembly will be asked to box and look at that referendum question. determine. I appreciate the opportunity to join in this debate, I can't imagine more interesting questions. I can't and I look forward to observing the will of the mem- think of more important questions. It is clearly past bers of the assembly as we proceed to vote on the reso- time to start working on the answers to those ques- lution. tions. [1715-1720] One of the things that's kind of interesting, as sort of a final comment…. Maybe it's not that interesting, Motion approved unanimously on a division. [See but it was occurring to me as I sat and listened to my Votes and Proceedings.] colleagues on both sides of the House this afternoon speak about the need for an assembly which takes this Hon. G. Plant: I call Motion 100. project of electoral reform out of the hands of politi- cians to give it to ordinary citizens. That is the bril- liance of the idea. But surely there's something about what makes the idea brilliant that also speaks in some APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE way to the extent that there is a problem, to the realiza- ON CITIZENS ASSEMBLY ON tion that there is a problem. At some level, in some ELECTORAL REFORM way, we don't think that we in this assembly can be trusted to come up with the answers to those questions Hon. G. Plant: I move Motion 100 standing in my — or whether we think we deserve the trust and name on the orders of the day, to constitute the Special whether we believe the citizens would, in fact, trust us. Committee on the Citizens Assembly on Electoral Re- That says something to me about the state of represen- form according to the provisions of the motion. tative democracy in the first years of the twenty-first ["That a Special Committee on the Citizens' Assembly on century. Electoral Reform be appointed and authorized: [1710] (1) to review the nomination of Jack Blaney as chair of the The great virtue of this idea is that it transcends Citizens' Assembly and to report to the Legislative that problem and says that for this issue we can avoid Assembly whether the Special Committee unanimously endorses the said nomination; the charge that the decision-makers are motivated by (2) to review the chair's subsequent selections of senior self-interest. We can avoid the allegation that those staff of the Citizens' Assembly and to report to the charged with charting, deciding upon what to recom- Legislative Assembly whether the Special Committee mend in terms of a new course…. Those charged with unanimously endorses the said selections: and that task can be set up in a way in which they are inde- (3) to receive interim reports from the chair of the pendent of those partisan and political pressures that Citizens' Assembly on the progress of the Citizens' operate, and quite often operate perfectly legitimately, Assembly's work. here. They could be set aside in a way that's independ- The Special Committee so appointed shall have the ent from us and set up in a way that protects or does as powers of a Select Standing Committee and is also good a job as you could possibly do, I think, within empowered: practical limits of establishing a body that's representa- (a) to appoint of their number one or more sub- committees and to refer to such sub-committees any tive, that will be manageable, that will be affordable of the matters referred to the Committee; and that lets those folks have a go at this issue. (b) to sit during a period in which the House is You know, these are tough issues. It may be that adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until when the folks in the assembly, the citizens who com- the next following Session and during any sitting of prise the assembly, answer whatever questions they the House;

6374 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003

(c) to adjourn from place to place as may be level. I more or less want to get a bit of an update convenient; and around some of those. (d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Actually, I had made my notes a couple of weeks Committee; ago, so the first was the citizens assembly. We've found and shall report to the House on the matters referred to out most of what we need to know about that during the Committee as soon as possible or following any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case the course of this afternoon, so I won't ask any ques- may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the tions around that. Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of Second was the administrative justice project, and adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the my understanding is that there's been a pretty compre- House, the Chair shall present all reports to the hensive review of a good number of government agen- Legislative Assembly. cies — somewhere around 60 or so — and that the At- The Special Committee is to be composed of J. Les torney General has embarked on an examination of our (Convenor), J. Bray, I. Chong, K. Krueger, B. Lekstrom, J. administrative justice system really from the ground MacPhail, and R. Nijjar."] up.

I guess perhaps what I'd like first is if the Attorney Interjection. General could confirm that one of the principles being looked at in terms of the administrative justice project Hon. G. Plant: Oh, I'm sorry. What I mean is that is to try and bring some consistency among the general I'm about do that, Mr. Speaker, and I thought I'd give processes being followed from one administrative tri- you advance notice. bunal to another, and then perhaps expand a bit on Before I do that, I call the Committee of Supply in what the underlying reasoning and principles are in Committee A for the purpose of the estimates debate. moving forward with the administrative justice project. For the information of members, the committee will be entertaining the debate of the Ministry of Advanced Hon. G. Plant: I thank the member for his question. Education. Certainly, one of the underlying objectives of the ad- When that is done, then I will do the other thing ministrative justice project is to try to see if we can ex- that I was giving you advance notice that I was intend- amine our system of administrative justice as a system ing to do. rather than as simply an ad hoc collection of different [1725] agencies. It was certainly constructed one agency at a time over most of a century in an ad hoc way, but in Deputy Speaker: The question, members, is on fact I think there are some basic principles that we Motion 100. ought to be able to identify and that are common to the way administrative tribunals work. The administrative Motion approved. justice project is about looking for those principles and trying to see what role we have in central government Hon. G. Plant: I call Committee of Supply in this to implement them. House for the purpose of debating the estimates. We [1730] will be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Attor- One of the things I think it is important for me to ney General. say as a kind of a qualification to that is that while I do believe there is a need to look at the system of adminis- Committee of Supply trative justice as a system, there's no public purpose to be served by imprinting a one-size-fits-all approach to administrative justice agencies. The patient review The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck board that discharges functions under the Criminal in the chair. Code does quite different work from the work of resi-

dential tenancy arbitrators. There are common themes The committee met at 5:27 p.m. to those things in their work, but I think we need to do

the work of searching for common themes in a way ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF that is respectful of the unique circumstances of indi- ATTORNEY GENERAL AND MINISTRY vidual tribunals, where that's relevant and important. RESPONSIBLE FOR TREATY NEGOTIATIONS The first phase of the administrative justice project, (continued) as I'm sure the member knows, really was primarily concerned with assisting the core services review in On vote 11: ministry operations, $379,990,000 (con- examining the existing landscape of administrative tinued). tribunals to determine which ones of them were con- tinuing to serve a viable public purpose in the years T. Christensen: I've got a number of things I want 2001, 2002 and 2003 and, where appropriate, making to cover. I will at some point be going through the At- some decisions that might and did result in streamlin- torney General's service plan, but I want to start with a ing, consolidating and eliminating some agencies. I few initiatives that I know the Attorney General's min- don't have the exact number in front of me right now, istry is dealing with, which are at a relatively high but we've gone from something like 67 agencies down

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6375 to a number that's significantly smaller. Some of that Hon. G. Plant: The short answer to the question is work is still in train, in that some of the legislation that yes. One of the things we have been doing in the ad- I expect will come forward from different ministries ministrative justice project is reviewing the statutes over the course of the balance of this session and per- that create agencies to make sure that in the appropri- haps even in the next year will reflect the acceptance of ate places and in the appropriate way, the tribunals the recommendations of the core services project themselves have the tools in the legislation to use and around redesigning, consolidating or eliminating some encourage the use of alternate dispute resolution. administrative justice agencies. There are some agencies that have not had the power The basic principles we are trying to follow in reform- in the statute and have felt that because of that, they ing administrative justice are set out in the White Paper, don't have the power to do that — that they just have to which is called On Balance: Guiding Principles for Adminis- operate as a relatively passive adjudicative agency. So trative Justice Reform in British Columbia. It's a pretty com- we're going across the landscape, trying to make sure prehensive overview of a pretty complex subject. At some that we give tribunals the tools they need to undertake level what we're trying to do is ensure that we strike the alternate dispute resolution and also continue to encour- right balance between independence and accountability. age a culture that embraces the use of ADR. The tribunals are not courts. They need a measure of insti- tutional independence to ensure that their decisions are T. Christensen: As the Attorney moves forward fair and impartial, but they also, in many cases, are there with developing, perhaps, somewhat of a comprehen- to implement government policy, so there is a need for sive legislative framework to apply to a number of tri- accountability. There are, I think, basic issues of fairness, bunals, does he expect that would apply down to mu- courtesy, affordability and efficiency. nicipal tribunals — things like boards of variance and The administrative justice community in British those other relatively municipal creatures? Columbia has been concerned with these issues for a long time, and there have been many good ideas in the Hon. G. Plant: Our field of view is, I would say, community about ways to embrace reform. To a con- limited to provincially created agencies. I think that siderable extent, what we've been doing is listening to municipally created adjudicative bodies may be draw- the administrative justice community. I think what ing on some of the work that has been done here, but we've been adding is sort of the political will, if you we're concentrating on the agencies, the tribunals, that will, of government on a commitment to listen and are created by this Legislature directly. undertake systemwide reform. There are more issues and principles at play here, T. Christensen: Just in terms of the overall review but maybe just to finish my comments in response to as well, has there been any effort put into looking at the question…. Having moved on from the first project, how the various provincial tribunals might operate which was the participation in the core services review more efficiently in terms of shared support staff or that I referred to, we have spent a fair bit of time over shared services, and looking at it more from a dollars- the last number of months examining the issues of in- and-cents perspective in terms of the resources re- dependence and accountability. One of the ways the quired to support a number of these tribunals? issue of independence raises itself is in the context of appointments — these questions: who appoints tribu- Hon. G. Plant: That work has been and continues nal members? What are their terms? Do we appoint at to be undertaken. There are some places where there pleasure? Do we appoint for terms of years? are economies of scale that can be achieved. There are We have been working on developing a legislative some places where it's not possible. I don't have in package that is getting close to being ready to come to front of me now any examples, although there are one the House, I hope, so there will be more on that par- or two that are coming to mind. But more broadly even ticular subject in due course if we can get a bill ready in than the administrative tribunals across government, time for the spring session. within my ministry we're also looking at ways in [1735] which the different agencies that aren't necessarily tri- bunals can share some services, can co-share space and T. Christensen: Thank you to the Attorney General some of that stuff. There are some opportunities for for giving me a pretty comprehensive idea of the direc- that — not as many as I might like, but we're doing tion of the administrative justice project. Certainly, it what we can. seems from his comments that it's something that's long overdue. T. Christensen: I'm going to switch now to the civil Just a couple of sort of minor points in terms of that liability review. Certainly, it has the potential, I would review. In looking at how administrative tribunals op- expect, to be even a much bigger task than the adminis- erate in the province now, has the Attorney incorpo- trative justice project, particularly given some of the rated, in looking at how we would like them to oper- history behind common-law principles and other statu- ate, alternate dispute resolution mechanisms to try and tory obligations that arise in our civil liability system. encourage ADR as an option, given that I know in Perhaps I could ask the Attorney General to answer other areas of the ministry that's certainly somewhat of what is the most basic question around the civil liabil- a priority? ity review, and that is: why was it initiated?

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[1740] been there in the past, whether it was the Law Reform Hon. G. Plant: From the outset of my time as an Commission here in B.C. or otherwise…. Can you elected official, I've been interested in the extent to comment briefly on what is happening in other juris- which we could reinvigorate private law reform in dictions either in Canada or in the U.S.A. where there British Columbia. There is a great history of private law seems to be — or it's my impression, at least — a gen- reform under the leadership of the Law Reform Com- eral concern about civil liability and on where we're at, mission, going back some number of years, and in the at this point in time? 1990s the Law Reform Commission was essentially There's no question it has changed dramatically allowed to wither and die. The Law Institute was cre- from where we were perhaps a century ago or even ten ated out of the ashes of the Law Reform Commission, years ago. Do we see that a number of other jurisdic- but it seems to me that government has a role to play in tions are embarking on this same sort of public discus- ensuring that the kind of law reform that's necessary — sion? Is there an opportunity there to learn from one if our system of laws is to keep up with modern cir- another in terms of what some of those challenges are cumstances — is undertaken even if, as is often the and where we should be going? case, the individual initiatives are not terribly signifi- [1745] cant politically. So you've got to look at the Warehouse Lien Act Hon. G. Plant: Yes, there have been developments from time to time. That has, frankly, been part of what on this front in virtually every common-law jurisdic- motivated me to undertake this civil liability review. I tion. That includes Australia; it includes New Zealand. think the other thing was my sense, as an observer of I believe it certainly includes many in the United the development of statutory and common law over States, and it also includes Canada. For example, in the time, that in some areas of the law the development of area of joint and several liability, the federal govern- legal principles was tending to favour plaintiffs at the ment has responded to concerns that existed in the expense of defendants. In some ways the system was banking industry, I believe, with respect to the liabili- losing a basic sense of fairness, or to be more precise ties that can flow from reliance upon financial state- about it, at least there were some legitimate questions ments. The federal government has enacted some legis- about whether that is so. lative changes in that area. The review began, really, with an attempt to start a The American jurisdictions have gone through a public discussion in which I asked people to think period of what is often called tort reform for the last about whether the principles of joint and several liabil- number of years. If we look at the American landscape, ity — which are partly statutory, partly common law many jurisdictions have wrestled with these issues in — are fair and whether the Limitation Act in the way it different ways and have reached different solutions. operates today is fair. It was a great law reform initia- The civil liability review from the outset has looked tive in the early 1970s, but it's nearly three decades old. to the experience in other jurisdictions as helping to at There have been significant changes to limitations leg- least lend some support to the idea that change may be islation in some other provinces. Maybe it's time that necessary and also to provide examples of different we looked at ours and in particular we look at the ul- kinds of reform that could be looked at. I will say this: timate limitation period, which is sort of the final back- this project is about basic and fundamental principles. stop for most cases, and other issues. It's a deeper project than simply particular questions I deliberately started a conversation on the basis of that are arising in particular industries from time to a suggestion that I thought there were some questions time. I've always thought this review is about asking about whether the law was striking the right balance, people to think of themselves potentially as individu- and that's continued to motivate what this review has als, both as prospective plaintiffs and prospective de- been about. fendants, and to put forward questions about the way To anticipate the member's next question, per- the law operates now and to ask them to think about haps…. As the member knows, we turned this public whether a particular result is fair or would be fairer conversation into something more formal in April of from your perspective as a plaintiff or, more impor- last year. We started a public process involving the tantly, as a defendant. publication of a consultation paper. We invited re- It's also the case, though, that there are factors at sponses from members of the public. We gave them a play out there in the larger world that are relevant. It response date of October 1. Much of the fall and winter appears to be the case that in an increasing way, con- was taken up with collecting the responses we re- tractors are having a hard time getting liability insur- ceived, and most recently we put a summary of those ance for the work they do. Those are factors that are at responses on the Attorney General's webpage so peo- play in the universe out there in terms of thinking ple could see what views were expressed. We are con- about whether the law is fair. tinuing to consider that input and to decide what, if We're trying to look for the right balance between any, action government will take as a result of this the interests of victims, who clearly have the right to work. compensation for a wrong that's been done to them, and also the legitimate interests of defendants in know- T. Christensen: You touched on it a bit in the last ing how long it is they have to wait to engage in a de- answer, but in terms of law reform initiatives that have bate about whether they, in fact, were committing a

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6377 tort or some other wrong. There is evidence out there What I'm trying to get around to is: could the Attor- that's relevant, but it's not necessarily determinative of ney comment on what efforts are ongoing or what suc- how this process will continue. cesses you may be having in better engaging some of the folks in the legal profession in this province, whether in T. Christensen: Is there any joint work being done practice or at the academic level, in consideration of the in terms of the Uniform Law Conference — I think it's issues raised within the civil liability review? called — or the uniform law commission that, as I un- derstand it, deals with things across Canada? Is this Hon. G. Plant: The member has pretty accurately tort reform or civil liability reform something that is characterized what we might call the institutional re- being looked at, at that level? sponse of the legal profession. But in fact, at the indi- vidual level many provided responses, and Hon. G. Plant: I don't believe that the issues that their input was received and has been taken into ac- were expressly raised in the civil liability review have count. It's also fair to say that a number of the larger been examined or are being examined by the Uniform institutions or organizations that provided submissions Law Conference. There are some issues that have been on behalf of their members probably did so with a bit examined by the Uniform Law Conference, which have of help from the lawyers who work for the members of been brought into this Legislature in the form of a cou- those associations. So at least at that level, we've got ple of bills we have introduced in this session around the beginnings of input from the legal profession. court jurisdiction and the enforcement of judgments. I certainly recognize that to the extent that there are We try to be active participants in the Uniform Law going to be different opinions about some of these is- Conference work. There are certainly some pretty dedi- sues among lawyers, it's going to be harder for the Bar cated folks in my ministry who are leaders in the Uni- Association or the Law Society to come up with a set- form Law Conference work, but I don't think the spe- tled position, and it may probably be better for those cific issues engaged in the discussion about the civil institutions that they don't try that. I mean, far be it liability review are the subject of review at the Uniform from me to tell those institutions what to do. Law Conference level. The trial lawyers, I think, would agree with me that it Another example of an issue that came from the ULC would be wrong to characterize their position as ambiva- and made its way onto the floor of the Legislature last year lent. But you know, it is interesting that I saw, for exam- was a change to the law with respect to trustee investment ple, in the most recent edition of The Verdict that came my powers. That's another example of the kind of law reform way, a pretty principled discussion of some of these is- that I think we have a duty to try to help with here. sues. So I guess I could say that while the deadline for [1750] submissions has passed, we're still paying attention to what people are saying about these issues. I'll forbear T. Christensen: Earlier the Attorney mentioned the from any other comment on the general approach taken summary of responses that have come in to the civil by my friends in the Trial Lawyers Association. liability review and the fact that that's available. I've [1755] had a bit of a chance to look at those. What concerned me most, in reviewing the responses, was the apparent T. Christensen: Actually, that is a helpful lead-in to position taken by much of the legal profession that my next question, which is: where do we go now? they weren't going to get integrally involved in the We've identified six main areas of discussion in the discussion at this point. The Summary of Responses liability review document, and we've got some re- document itself notes that the Law Society of B.C., the sponses from those. Certainly, what seems to be consis- Trial Lawyers Association of B.C. and the B.C. branch tent from folks like the Law Society and others that of the Canadian Bar Association, among others, had weren't taking a particular position is that these are taken the position that their objection to the launching important issues, that they deserve very thorough con- of the civil liability review was so fundamental as to sideration — given the impacts that they have on peo- preclude their responding to the individual issues. ple, whether plaintiff or defendant — and that, if any- The reason I'm concerned is that notwithstanding thing, one of the complaints seemed to be that we need that there's a good deal of perhaps concern among a to do much more. There should have been a lot more good number of lawyers in the province, the reality is background information thrown out to the public be- that they're the folks who have to deal with this stuff fore we asked for a response. That may be true if we on a day-to-day basis. They're in a position to see the were only asking for responses from the legal commu- impact of what potential changes might be on their nity. Can the Attorney comment on how we take these clients, whether they be plaintiffs or defendants, and six different issues and move ahead from here — what that if we don't have them engaged in the conversation, he anticipates doing? that's to the detriment of the process certainly. I've been heartened a little bit that I've seen in a couple of Hon. G. Plant: Well, first, if I can be just ever so recent issues of The Verdict, which is the Trial Lawyers slightly more direct, it's hard to take seriously the con- Association's journal, that they're at least putting for- tention by the legal profession that they needed more ward certain positions, and obviously those positions background information. The areas of law that we're may be debated. talking about here are areas of law that many lawyers

6378 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 are engaged in every day of their lives. They are the One of the documents the B.C. Justice Review Task subject of extensive academic and jurisprudential dis- Force has concluded is a background and discussion cussion. There are many views expressed on all sides of paper in terms of the unified family court. That con- every question about whether the state of the law to- cluded back in October. One of the issues raised there, day is correct or right or fair. On a number of these which perhaps the Attorney General can comment on, issues, in fact, those arguments are taking place, more firstly is that apparently at one point there was some or less as we speak, in the , federal money available to assist in expanding the where lawyers are arguing about the scope of non- availability of unified family courts. Is that sort of delegable duty, for example, and not telling the Su- funding still available? preme Court of Canada that they don't have enough information about whether or not there are issues here. Hon. G. Plant: I appreciate the question. The second point — a small point, but important — One of the ways in which the unified family court is that although the civil liability review formal discus- model has been implemented in some other provinces sion paper organized thinking and asked questions involves a commitment of federal funding that sup- about six issues, we never have closed the door to other ports, in most cases, the appointment of some addi- issues. We received some input that has allowed us to tional judges to the superior court. Then the fact that think about some other generally smaller issues, and there is no longer a need for as many Provincial Court that work continues. judges tends to free up some resources typically used To the main question, we've had a public conversa- to provide some of the support services important to a tion about these issues for a year and a half. As we family court reform initiative. identified in the last exchange, the conversation hasn't [1840] continued. Even though the formal deadline for re- Traditionally, the federal government has supported sponses to the discussion paper has ended, there are the provinces that have adopted this approach in a way still people out there writing about these things, and that it appears they are not, at the moment, prepared to we're still reading. It's now time for government to do in British Columbia. We've been doing a fair bit of decide what, if anything, to do about these issues — work with the federal government since the last federal whether to make changes in the law or not. budget to try to determine just what their commitment is I always ask myself the question whether there is a to family justice and family court reform in British Co- need for more process. I can say, in this case, that 18 lumbia, and it appears that there has been a new atti- months' worth of public discussion, I think, represents tude. It may be just a new fiscal attitude. Whatever it is, a pretty reasonable attempt at engaging the public in it appears as though the fiscal support we had thought the issue. I don't have a firm answer yet to whether or would be there when we began exploring this idea in the not we may need some more work on some issues, and Justice Review Task Force may not be there. I don't have a firm answer to what, if anything, gov- I have not given up trying, and I am on the verge of ernment will do about these things. I believe the ques- maybe writing a letter to the federal minister. But we tions were real and legitimate and important. The dis- haven't been given much lately from the Department of cussion has been useful and insightful and, I think, Justice in Ottawa that gives us much hope, which I necessary, and now government is going to have to think is very disappointing because there is an oppor- decide what, if anything, it wants to do about that. We tunity here to do something that would help improve will move forward in the months to come towards the quality of family justice services for people in Brit- making that decision. ish Columbia. Noting the hour, Mr. Chair, I wonder if I could ask I do think the federal government has a role here. the committee to recess until 6:35. They can help, and they have helped in other prov- inces. What appears to be a change of approach is what The Chair: The committee stands recessed until we're faced with, and we're still doing what we can to 6:35 p.m. see if we can roll away the obstacles. But I'm a little less optimistic right now than I would like to be about The committee recessed from 5:58 p.m. to 6:36 p.m. whether or not we're going to be able to move forward with the unified family court reform. [H. Long in the chair.] T. Christensen: In the absence of the federal gov- T. Christensen: Before the 30-minute dinner break, ernment providing the funding…. I take it that having we were talking about a few of the initiatives the Attor- the ability to appoint additional Supreme Court judges ney General has undertaken with respect to law reform. is critical to the whole process moving forward so that A further one we hadn't gotten to yet was the B.C. Jus- in the absence of that additional federal funding, tice Review Task Force. I understand that's a relatively there's really no opportunity to move in the direction recent group in terms of being organized. They propose of a unified family court. to look at a broad range of things to see how we can make the justice system more effective, affordable, re- Hon. G. Plant: I think it's fair to say that the federal sponsive, accessible and cost-effective — all of which I funding is important and very significantly important, think we would all agree are laudable goals. but I'm not prepared to close the door right now, partly

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6379 because our discussions continue. So I don't know that criminal justice system works now that create ineffi- I'm in a position now where I could state with confi- ciencies, that compromise our ability to deliver justice dence what the outcome of this process will be. We are and that, frankly, may result in innocent people being committed to the idea of reform, and I think that re- convicted and guilty people being acquitted because it form is necessary, and if the federal government is not takes so long to get cases to trial. We spend so much willing to treat British Columbia the way it has treated money and time now on the complex cases. The institu- other provinces in the past, then there is no doubt that tions of the criminal law that have been in place for that creates serious obstacles. We're going to continue decades — or centuries, in some cases — and were to work on that. created for a time and a place where you could do a pretty serious criminal case in a couple of days come T. Christensen: Certainly from my perspective, I under stress when you take very minor criminal cases would encourage the Attorney General to write the and stretch them out over two weeks. What I was try- letter, and a strongly worded one, in terms of the inter- ing to do in the Advocate article was to stimulate a bit of ests of British Columbians. a public discussion, at least within the profession, Given my own limited experience certainly in fam- about whether it's time we start asking bigger ques- ily law, it would be very helpful to try and bring some tions. better integration between the Provincial Court and the The challenge I have faced is thinking about what it Supreme Court. I think it would better serve, certainly, is we could do as a provincial government, as one actor families who find themselves in the difficult situation in this complex thing we call a system, to actually effect of a family law situation to be dealing with one level of change. The Criminal Code and criminal procedure are court. established by the federal government. The courts are Keeping on this general theme of law reform, I staffed by an independent judiciary. The criminal de- note, as well, that in a relatively recent issue of the Ad- fence bar considers itself to be pretty vigorously inde- vocate the Attorney General raised the issue of criminal pendent, and prosecutors themselves exercise inde- justice reform. We don't want to leave any part of the pendent judgment in relation to the discharge of their law out, I take it. But could the Attorney General please duties — and there's more. The landscape is filled with comment on what, if anything, has been initiated in sets of actors that operate occasionally in a way that's respect of criminal justice reform at the provincial interconnected but sometimes in a way that's not. level? It's hard to know where to start in terms of figuring out what it is that we could do to initiate a conversa- Hon. G. Plant: I'm delighted to know that some- tion about these changes. We have, however, initiated body reads that column in the Advocate. the conversation. I have spent some time talking with There are some important initiatives that have been some of my provincial colleagues. These issues are underway and some that continue, which probably percolating under the surface at the federal-provincial- represent part of an answer to the member's question. territorial level — maybe a little bit further under the If you examine the criminal justice system broadly, we surface than I'd like. I'm going to continue to try and are continuing to work to expand — in some ways, this raise awareness, and we'll see where it goes. is culture change — the possibility of the use of video I do think that gradually, the public is becoming conferencing, for example, to reduce unnecessary ap- disconnected from this thing that is our criminal justice pearances and travel time. That has a big impact on system and that it's not working for them. It has to appearances by people in custody who are waiting trial work for the public, broadly speaking. I mean, it has to on criminal matters. meet the public interest eventually, or the public will [1845] write it off, and it will become irrelevant. That's not We are still working on the implementation of traf- right; it's not good for us. fic dispute reform, which was a legislative initiative The need is there. Unfortunately, I think sometimes that was passed here last year. We're still working on the conversation about how the system works is a con- municipal bylaw forums. That is an initiative we talked versation that the system actors have amongst them- about that has not yet, I believe, made its way here in selves as an internal dialogue, and that internal dia- terms of legislative changes. There are changes to the logue tends to become a self-sustaining conversation young offenders legislation that the member knows looking for the good things in what is happening as about, which mean that we are going to have to change opposed to a full and frank exchange of views, recog- some of the ways we do things here in British Colum- nizing the ways in which the system needs some pretty bia. I think it's right to describe the Youth Criminal important change. That article in the Advocate repre- Justice Act, the federal act, as a reform act. To the ex- sents one part of an attempt I'm making to at least raise tent that we are active participants and doing our part public awareness and awareness in the profession in implementing that act, I think that can fairly be de- about the concerns I have about these things. scribed as a reform initiative. That list of those sorts of initiatives is incomplete, and I could probably add T. Christensen: I appreciate that the Attorney Gen- quite a few other items to it. eral is looking at these issues in the context of that dif- The point of the Advocate article was to ask a deeper ficult federal-provincial relationship in many cases, question, which is whether there are ways in which the particularly around criminal law matters, and that

6380 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 other provinces are being engaged in this discussion, try and has essentially moved into contingency fund- notwithstanding that it may be well under the surface. ing, so it's not reflected anymore. You could say that's Does there appear to be much interest from the federal really an accounting entry in terms of looking at the front, given that they are going to have to drive a good overall expenditures of government. deal of reform if, in fact, we're going to have effective Then courthouse closure adjustments represent reform? $2.23 million. A decrease in building occupancy costs [1850] produces a saving of $0.4 million and some general budget reductions of just under $2 million. Those de- Hon. G. Plant: There has been and continues to be creases probably add up to more than the number the some federal interest, and there has been some federal member sees. That's because there are some budget legislative reform. I think it's Bill C-15A. Anyway, there increases, due largely to a COLA lift for staff in the have been some recent federal changes that have af- branch. fected issues like the availability of preliminary hear- ings, which strikes me as being one of those things that T. Christensen: I appreciate the Attorney General was good at a time and a place when it was invented clarifying that, because I think what tends to happen is and no longer serves a necessary purpose, at least for that people pick up these documents, see a quick num- the vast, vast majority of cases. So there has been fed- ber and then wonder what on earth that means when eral engagement. the rubber hits the road. It's helpful to know that there I think it's also fair to say that there are different are numbers going in each direction. degrees of concern and shared concern around the fed- [1855] eral-provincial-territorial table but as yet no real con- Certainly, it's been no secret that over the course of sensus around these issues. That's fine. It takes time to the last year one of the progressive means of ensuring build the awareness. Sometimes the most effective way that the court services needs of various communities of dealing with these things is to settle on two or three that perhaps saw courthouse closure has been the in- particular initiatives and see if you can make those troduction of circuit courts. Perhaps the Attorney Gen- work. There's been a lot of effort directed at the issue of eral could comment briefly on the ongoing costs of preliminary hearings, for example. That work will con- those circuit courts, whether that introduces additional tinue, I'm sure. costs back into the Attorney General's budget and There is a bit of a progress report. whether there are cost-sharing arrangements around

those circuit courts with municipalities who may be T. Christensen: I thank the Attorney General for using the building for another purpose — or other giving some information on those broad areas of law agencies, for that matter. reform.

I'm going to switch now to going through the ser- vice plan a little more specifically. I'll try to basically Hon. G. Plant: In general terms, the answer is that follow the route the plan takes. I'm going to start in there are cost-sharing arrangements. There are differ- respect to court services. The first question there is: do ent arrangements in some different places. For the most the expenditures in '02-03 reflect any savings from part, if not in terms of all of them, the circuit court loca- courthouse closures that occurred during the course of tions that we have established over the last year have last year? all involved some measure of municipal contribution. In terms of the cost to the Ministry of Attorney Hon. G. Plant: I'm told the '02-03 numbers do re- General which is involved in our commitment to pro- flect some of the savings that we anticipate will be real- viding those court services, we've sort of elbowed and ized as a result of the courthouse closures, but that in scratched the room necessary to achieve this purpose all likelihood the full savings won't be manifested until from within this overall budget envelope. I think we the '03-04 year that we're embarked upon. have about $700,000 in our expenditures, offset by $550,000. We have a net cost of about a quarter of a T. Christensen: That leads nicely to the next ques- million dollars in order to sustain the circuit courts that tion. There's a little under a $7 million reduction in '03- have been established over the last year, although I 04, and the natural question is whether you contem- think that's probably a court services budget cost. plate more courthouse closures to try to meet those There are also, in some locations, some criminal justice targets. costs associated with maintaining Crown counsel or getting Crown counsel to some of those locations. Hon. G. Plant: Let me first explain or provide a summary of the reason for the decrease in the operat- T. Christensen: How many circuit courts have now ing budget figure for the court services branch from been established? I tried to keep track, but I lost track '02-03 to '03-04. The decrease in the operating budget is of the number because there were a few recent an- primarily due to the removal of Air India funding. nouncements. Are you anticipating any more? That's $4 million. Now, what's meant by that is that Air Perhaps you could also comment on, from a practi- India funding has basically been pulled out of the op- cal standpoint as a member of the public, what the dif- erations funding of the different branches of the minis- ference is between a regular court registry and a circuit

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6381 court location in terms of the types of services available Hon. G. Plant: Yes. at the location. T. Christensen: Does it show any sort of marked Hon. G. Plant: The status now is that we have put difference between the service you would receive from in place 15 circuit court operations since the service a circuit court in terms of the timeliness of adjudication reductions and courthouse closures were announced in as opposed to a community that has a full-time court- January of last year. Just to put that number in con- house? text…. I'm sure I'll get corrected if I get these numbers wrong. When we came into government, there were 99 Hon. G. Plant: I think it may be that circuit courts court locations in British Columbia. Sixty-eight were are a little bit less efficient. There is, I suppose, a higher served by a full-service courthouse, and 31 were circuit risk in a circuit court town that if the matter doesn't court locations. The reduction in the number of full- finish within the more limited time allotted, then you time courts from the 24 that were closed was a reduc- may get bumped to a longer time down the road. I tion from the 68 number. The addition of the 15, I think it would be fair to say that's a general observa- guess, is in addition to the 31. tion. I am certain that the actual experience differs from We always had a big part of the judicial system in court location to court location. British Columbia being delivered in smaller communi- This issue presents at least one challenging tension ties through the use of circuit courts, and we expanded — on the one hand the desire to make justice accessible that to help 15 of the communities that were otherwise in smaller communities. By that I mean physically ac- affected by the courthouse closures. There is a possibil- cessible so that there is a courtroom with a judge pre- ity of another circuit court being opened. We have had siding over matters in the community so that citizens some productive discussions over the last while with in the community can have a feeling that they are con- the people in Merritt, but I can't necessarily predict or nected to a justice system. All of that operates in favour commit to an outcome. of having a wide-ranging system of circuit courts. The Unfortunately, I also have to say that we are having countervailing tension is that it's not the world's most some difficulty in the district of Hope. I think it's fair to efficient way to use scarce and valuable judicial and say that the district of Hope was expecting to get more legal resources. service for less money than we understood that they If you happen to be in a small town where court is had agreed to when the arrangement was made, and so set for one day every two weeks, yeah, there are some things don't look very positive right now in terms of of the problems I talked about earlier. But if what hap- the district of Hope. pens in the court on the day when court is sitting is that [1900] the four matters collapse and one is dealt with in an What the public sees, by and large, in terms of the hour, then everybody could be standing around by difference between a circuit court and a full-time court 10:30 or 11 o'clock and there's no other business to be depends a lot on what they come to do in a courthouse. done. Now, if you're 222 Main Street, leaving aside If they come to a courthouse on a day when court is what the lawyers may have planned, the judge will get sitting to attend a trial as a witness or as a party or as a a call saying: "Here's some more work coming your member of the public, they don't see much that's dif- way." But if you are in some small town where you've ferent. There's a judge, there's counsel, there are par- gone just for the day, it may be nice to feel that in some ties, and things are pretty much as you'd expect. How- way there's no pressing business to occupy you for the ever, if they come to court to file documents in a regis- balance of the day. That isn't to say that judges won't try, that's what's different. have lots of work to do to keep up with reserves and all The main difference between a full-time court service of that stuff, but it's not really always the most efficient and a circuit court is that the circuit courts do not have use of our judicial resources and other resources, which full-time court registries. That's why, in addition to things are awfully expensive. like the circuit court initiative that I talked about, we have [1905] worked hard to expand the use of fax-filing, for example, so that people don't necessarily have to get in their car and T. Christensen: I take it that in establishing a circuit drive five miles or 50 miles to file a document. They can court in any particular location, there's some reference to go find a fax machine and just fax it in to the courthouse historical caseloads so that there's a relative degree of con- that has the registry. That's the main difference, though, fidence that we're going to be able to keep the people between the two arrangements. we're putting there busy for the day or two they are there. Is that something that's monitored on an ongoing basis so T. Christensen: In respect to the operation of the we can assess whether we're getting good value for the circuit courts, both the new ones and the ones that have dollars being spent in terms of those courthouses? been there for a good deal of time, does the ministry Equally importantly, is there any work or consulta- keep statistics separately in terms of the number of tion with the legal profession in a particular area that cases heard in those and the time it takes to either get has a circuit court to try and ensure that you don't have to trial or get through a trial in the event that perhaps the scenario you talked about where you have a good it's prolonged a bit if the court is not sitting five days a number of cases collapsing on the courthouse steps? week? That's a problem at all court registries, but it seems it's

6382 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 perhaps a bit more worrisome at a circuit court, where to better support the level of court and processing cases you don't have something then to fill the docket. in a timely, efficient manner is to use more video con- ferencing. Certainly, I'm aware that even since five Hon. G. Plant: Well, we're on the verge of having a years ago, there's been a dramatic increase and a good conversation about the difficult challenge of introduc- deal of efficiency from having introduced video con- ing the concept of management into the judicial sys- ferencing. Could the Attorney General comment firstly tem. I'm being partly facetious. There is a tremendous on whether the bar in general and, equally importantly, amount of work done by court services staff and by the the judiciary have essentially embraced the use of judiciary to make the most efficient use of their re- video conferencing and whether there's been any sig- sources. Nonetheless, the structure, as it is, creates the nificant assessment of the effectiveness of video confer- issues I've talked about. encing — where it works well, where it doesn't work To illustrate the range, I've got in front of me a well and perhaps where it may be expanded? number of circuit court locations where, in some cases — for a town or village like Klemtu or Tahsis — we're Hon. G. Plant: I think that much of this initiative talking about two sittings a year. That ranges all the was led by the judiciary. I know that in some of the way up to some towns, like Vanderhoof or 100 Mile time I've spent in different courthouses in British Co- House, where we've got two days a week. In all of lumbia, the local administrative judges have been very those towns I think it's fair to say that the ministry tries keen to explain the extent to which they're using the to monitor what the demands are and to manage them. technology and the extent to which they are, over time, The judiciary are also very actively paying attention trying to expand the range of matters where the tech- to the need for their services. At some level you could nology is available. I think it's fair to say that, generally say there is kind of a dialogue that over time, hope- speaking, the bar has also been receptive. There are fully, results in the right decisions being made about obviously going to be some individual cases where allocating resources to different places. It's a very sensi- lawyers are going to disagree about whether a particu- tive issue, obviously, in the towns where these services lar witness really ought to be there in person as op- are being provided. I obviously can attest to the sensi- posed to by video conferencing. tivity of it from having been a participant in the experi- This has been a hugely valuable tool to the sheriffs ence over the last year and a half. and the corrections folks in terms of transporting peo- I think what we need to do is continue to think ple in custody, and I think it reduces the number of hard about what is meant by that idea of access, what unnecessary in-person appearances in lots of places. is meant by the idea of the presence of justice in a But we're still learning how to use it, broadly speaking, community. How much of that is composed of bricks in the actual trial, where we're talking about perhaps a and mortars or needs to be, if at all, and how much of it critically important witness who may be 5,000 miles can be achieved through other means? What are the away. I think there's probably still some growing and cases that go into court in these towns, and do they adjusting and thinking that have to happen. We moni- need to be in courthouses? Could we be resolving some tor it, and we monitor its use and its impact. I also of these issues in other ways? know that its use and impact have been the subject of You know, I'm always mindful of the fact that most study by criminologists generally, and I think there's of my practice as a was in the Supreme Court of probably a bit of academic literature on this out there British Columbia. If you practise in the Supreme Court that I, frankly, don't know enough about. of British Columbia…. For most of the time when I was a lawyer, if you had a matter that went on for more T. Christensen: Is it accurate to say that the ministry, than three or four days, there was a pretty good chance in looking at the expansion of video conferencing, is look- that — it didn't matter where you were in British Co- ing at the academic research that's out there so that we're lumbia — you were going to have a trial in downtown moving ahead in accordance with the best science? Vancouver or maybe Victoria. You might be lucky to get a week trial in Prince George or Kamloops or Hon. G. Plant: We are moving ahead, and we are Kelowna, but if you were in Smithers, you weren't go- expanding. The service plan says that the number of ing to get a long trial heard in Smithers. I don't remem- video conferencing units in use is expected to increase ber litigants beside themselves with anxiety over over the next few years. whether or not they were having adequate access to A distinction has to be drawn between the work justice in that respect. that we can do as a ministry to make the technology The world has always been composed of a whole available and to help people understand what it might bunch of different approaches to these things, and be used for…. Then the bar and the judiciary have to we're continuing to monitor them. set their own limits in terms of what happens in a [1910] courtroom. I think it's fair to say that B.C. is a leader in Canada in the use of video conferencing, and I hope T. Christensen: Just referring back specifically to that we will continue to be. the service plan, the Attorney General alluded to it earlier in terms of the increased use of video conferenc- T. Christensen: Shifting to municipal bylaw dis- ing. The service plan indicates that one of the strategies putes — again, you referred to that briefly earlier —

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6383 there's been a stated intent to work with municipalities citizens who receive tickets from them from time to to look at a new process to resolve minor bylaw dis- time. putes more efficiently. Can you give a bit of an update as to where that's at, at this point? It obviously has T. Christensen: Just flipping over to the perform- some pretty significant implications in terms of some of ance measures that are set out in the service plan for the performance measures set out in the service plan court services. I note there's a goal, at least, to lower the under court services, as well as probably the overall average number of appearances per completed case in impact on this particular branch. Provincial Court. What sort of strategies are being pur- [1915] sued to try to reduce the number of appearances that counsel, with or without their client, need to be there? Hon. G. Plant: Consultation has been continuing for the last while. We've moved, to some extent, be- Hon. G. Plant: The criminal case-flow management yond the kind of basic concept of what a bylaw forum rules are one of the tools we rely upon in planning for a might look like and started to focus on what might be modest reduction in the number of appearances per called the business plan side of it. That is, how much matter. The use of video conferencing is part of the will it cost, and where will the money come from to picture here — that's a bad use of term. Anyway, gen- support that? What does that mean in terms of the dif- erally trying to manage the system more efficiently…. ference between, say, large communities on the North The judiciary, as I say, are working hard on some of the Shore in Vancouver versus some smaller communities? problem areas, if I could call them that. Our ministry is That work continues. I think we may have, in fact, trying to support that work and help in that work. some pilot sites up and running perhaps as soon as this [1920] fall. One of the major contributors to the numbers the We have also been working on the legislation that member is looking at is the number of appearances in is needed to create the framework for this. It's getting cases that are heard at 222 Main Street. I think it's fair risky to say this when we're almost on May 1, but I still to say that the 5.2, 5.4, 5.6 numbers in the service plan am hopeful we'll have some legislation at least intro- would probably be lower if we could find a way to duced for exposure purposes during the current sitting. achieve a miracle transformation of the process at 222 Main Street. If the member has any ideas about how to

make a miracle happen, I'd be happy to hear them. T. Christensen: We can look forward to the legisla- tion perhaps in the next month or maybe a little bit T. Christensen: Unfortunately, I never had the longer than that. pleasure of practising at 222 Main Street, so I wouldn't What financial implication or potential financial know the problems and certainly don't have any ideas implication is there to the court services branch in off the top of my head in terms of solutions, but I'm terms of perhaps moving municipal bylaw actions out- sure there are a number of good minds working on it. side of the Provincial Court? I note that in the supple- In terms of some of the performance measures mental estimates it looks like there are total external around criminal cases, has there been any thought of recoveries for court services of, I think, $1.2 million. incorporating, as a performance measure, the number The note, at least, suggests that some of that comes of successful Askov applications where cases are being from municipal bylaw–type actions. Can you comment dismissed because they've taken too long? Presumably on that generally? I may have the number wrong. we keep track of that, and it would seem to me a pretty relevant measure of the efficiency of the criminal court Hon. G. Plant: I believe I'm right in saying the re- system. covery relates to an agreement the government has had with the city of Vancouver for a number of years. I'm Hon. G. Plant: In the case of an Askov-related per- advised that we anticipate that the gross savings to the formance measure, I assume what the member means Ministry of Attorney General from the implementation is that we would establish a baseline — the number of of the bylaw reform initiative could amount to a mil- successful Askov applications made now — and then lion dollars annually, but we've already spent some of commit to try to reduce them over time. I don't have that money. the exact numbers in front of me. I think there are very, The savings were kind of planned and anticipated very few successful Askov applications made in any when we were asking ourselves where we could get given year in British Columbia, and it is certainly in the money to pay for circuit courts, for example. I'm our interests to keep that number to a very, very small told that the net savings to the ministry are $50,000 a number — if not eliminate it altogether. year when all these other costs are taken into account. We do monitor the time it takes to get to trial in It clearly should reduce some of the pressures on adult and youth criminal cases at every courthouse the court system, generally speaking, and that's a good around the province. When I speak about managing to thing. It's a good thing from an expenditure point of achieve greater efficiencies and the work that the judi- view, but I hope also, fundamentally, it's a good thing ciary do and that my ministry does, it is work that is from the point of view of providing a more accessible, responsive to the numbers we see at particular court affordable service to municipal governments and the locations around the province. We are constantly

6384 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 mindful of the issue and doing what we can to make Hon. G. Plant: We don't know much about the de- sure it doesn't become a problem. I do think it would tails of what the federal government is thinking about. be interesting to sort of take a step outside the status To be fair, I'm not even sure yet that the federal gov- quo and all of its pressures to see if we could find ernment knows much about the details of what it's places and ways in which we could achieve, much thinking about, and so it's too soon to say. more ambitiously, a shorter time to trial in some court locations than we seem to be able to achieve. T. Christensen: I'm going to shift to the legal ser- The member practised in one community where vices branch now. there was probably one set of expectations and experi- I know the answer to this, but just on the record, ences. The province is filled with a whole bunch of can the minister confirm that when he talks about "cli- different stories in that regard. I think Askov cases, by ent" under the legal services branch, the client for the and large, are the products of specific circumstances — most part is other ministries of government? in fact, even specific dynamics and tensions between the prosecutors, the defendants and their counsel in a Hon. G. Plant: That's correct. particular case — much more than they are a result of the systemic issue. The systemic issue is the big-picture T. Christensen: The natural follow-up to that: are numbers about how long it takes to get a criminal case there any other clients beyond ministries of govern- to trial in Chilliwack, Surrey, Vancouver, Hope or ment? Vernon and managing to get those numbers to a level that is reasonable. Hon. G. Plant: I think the simple answer is: nothing outside government. The legal services branch, I think, T. Christensen: I saw in the notes here the com- does provide some support to some agencies, boards ments that approximately 85 percent of the criminal and commissions that aren't necessarily the ministries cases are initiated and prosecuted by provincial Crown per se. I'll find out about whether there is any support counsel and the remaining 15 percent are initiated by provided to Crown corporations. I know all the larger federal Crown counsel. Does the federal portion of Crown corporations provide themselves with their that…? How is there cost-sharing for that in terms of own counsel. I don't know about smaller Crowns. I am who's footing the bill for the part that is related to fed- advised there are some smaller Crowns that get their erally prosecuted offences? legal services from the legal services branch.

Hon. G. Plant: It isn't cost-shared. The feds pay T. Christensen: The estimates indicate recoveries of their prosecutors, we pay our prosecutors, and we pay about, I think, $661,000 external recoveries. Would that the rent on the courthouses and turn on the lights. If it's be money coming from Crowns, or where are those a Provincial Court matter, it is heard by judges that are dollars coming from? paid by the province. If it is a superior court matter, it's heard by judges that are paid by Ottawa. Hon. G. Plant: If the member is looking at STOB [1925] 89, I'm told that what appears there is a number re- presenting recoveries from agencies outside of gov- T. Christensen: In terms of keeping statistics about ernment. I don't think I was wrong in what I said ear- the efficiency of our court services, do we keep similar lier, because here are some of the agencies we're talk- statistics in terms of those federal cases? Are we track- ing about: the B.C. Pension Corporation, B.C. Securi- ing the number of appearances that may be on a nar- ties, the B.C. Investment Management Corporation, cotics offence versus an assault? I guess what I'm get- the liquor distribution branch, Land and Water B.C., ting at is: are the federal either efficiencies or inefficien- PSERC, Forest Renewal B.C. and the Columbia Power cies perhaps skewing some of the statistics that we Corporation. The numbers that we're talking about have around our own prosecutorial abilities? there range from — oh, I don't know — $100,000, $200,000 in a couple of cases and all the way down to Hon. G. Plant: I am advised that we don't see much about $400 in one case. difference in the statistics that we keep. As the member knows, the two main categories of cases that federal [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] prosecutors handle in British Columbia are drug cases including conspiracy-to-traffic cases, which are often T. Christensen: I'm glad they've got that billing quite long and very resource-intensive, and the federal efficiency to pick up the $400 one. That explains it well fish prosecutions. Many of those are also quite long in terms of those simply being agencies within gov- because they involve constitutional issues. ernment but outside of a particular ministry's budget. There's a little over a $15 million net operating ex- T. Christensen: Given that there's ongoing discus- pense that's not billed to other ministries. Does that sion at the federal level in terms of some of their poten- simply account for general operating expenses of the tial legislative change around drug laws in particular, I legal services branch in terms of offices and support take it that it's too early to assess what, if any, impact staff and that type of thing, which don't get billed to that would have on court time in the province. another ministry?

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6385

[1930] In terms of the performance measures listed in the Hon. G. Plant: Not all of the legal services that are service plan, can you comment briefly on the legal risk provided by the legal services branch are billed to management plan? Firstly, what is it? And secondly, other ministries. For example, the constitutional and where are we at in terms of reaching some of the goals administrative section is supported internally within of that plan? my ministry. We have expanded the extent to which [1935] there is cost recovery from other ministries of govern- ment, but there are still portions of what we do that are Hon. G. Plant: Broadly speaking, we're talking not cost-recovered. about trying to help the client ministries do a better job of identifying risks and of managing them, of looking T. Christensen: In terms of some of the overall sav- for opportunities to resolve pending disputes before ings or reduction in the budget for the legal services they become real disputes, of expanding the use of branch over this next year, is part of that an accounting alternate dispute resolution. We're trying to get minis- for better recoveries from within government? tries to think more like actual clients of legal services. One of the things that is still expected to happen Hon. G. Plant: Is the member looking at the reduc- over time is that we're looking at the fact that the tion in the operating budget from $23 million to $15.5 Crown Proceeding Act dollars, which are essentially million? The member nods yes. I think the answer is the resting place for all of the damage claims and set- that that reduction is primarily due to the implementa- tlements against the Crown and currently rest in the tion of the charge-back recovery model. Ministry of Attorney General…. We're looking for some way in which to increase the sense of T. Christensen: I see that in terms of FTEs over the accountability ministries have for the extent to which next few years, there's an increase from 257 to 291. Is those dollars represent the consequences of their errors that primarily lawyers, or is it a broad range of staff or omissions in doing their job over time. That's sort of members within legal services branch? a bigger objective. We have done a fair amount of work to develop Hon. G. Plant: It's about half and half: lawyers and the structure for a risk management plan. I'm told it's non-lawyers. The increase results from the fact that not quite in place, but we are expecting to roll this out there is an increased level of service requested of the as pilot projects with some ministries during the cur- legal services branch by the other ministries. Interest- rent fiscal year. This, in part, was a result of the core ingly enough, although they are starting to pay more services review and a budget exercise, where we kept for it, they appear to want more of it. looking at the fact that in the Ministry of Attorney General — with a budget, in broad figures, of $500 T. Christensen: That's an interesting correlation. million or thereabouts — there is this $30 million In terms of the number of articling students, is that whacking thing here called the Crown Proceeding increasing as well, or is that pretty static? How are we Act. I think there are ways in which government can doing in terms of building our future staff resources on do a better job of trying to manage its liability expo- that end? sure. This is what this initiative has been working towards. Hon. G. Plant: I'm advised that we have reduced our articling program from seven students to four stu- T. Christensen: Is part of the strategy around a dents as part of the challenge of achieving some budget legal risk management plan sort of akin to a legal audit, reductions. where the legal services branch would be going in and working with the ministry to identify what they've T. Christensen: Has there been any human re- been doing, how they're monitoring their activities in source assessment? We hear about looming skills terms of the type of work a particular ministry does shortages in a number of areas right across society in and potential liabilities and what they're doing to fol- terms of the pool of talent that I feel we certainly need low up on concerns? within the legal services branches. Are we keeping track of that in terms of age cohorts and the need to be Hon. G. Plant: Well, it may be work that will be bringing in younger lawyers — younger both by age done by the legal services branch working with the and by call — to ensure we have those resources in the client ministries. One of the challenges here is to find future? different areas where the activity of the ministry cre- ates these sorts of claims or leads to more of them — Hon. G. Plant: The answer is yes. Some of the best and perhaps being more focused in searching for those lawyers in British Columbia work for the legal services areas and working harder on those areas. We know, for branch. Some want to. We just hired one of the best example, that the government gets sued too often — lawyers in British Columbia as the Deputy Attorney perhaps because of accidents on highways. That's an General. area where there's just a lot of exposure year in, year out. What can we do to manage that exposure better? T. Christensen: That's very good to hear. That's the kind of work we're going to do.

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T. Christensen: I'm going to move ahead now to sions the Attorney General needed to make was to re- the prosecution services branch. One of the goals there duce the specific victims workers that were employed in terms of the performance measure is to increase the by the ministry. Who's performing those services that total number of accused persons referred to alternative are required by the act? measures programs. What sort of strategies are being undertaken to increase those referrals? Hon. G. Plant: Some of the services may be pro- [1940] vided by or picked up by the community- or police- based programs that the Solicitor General is responsi- Hon. G. Plant: Well, the work here involves identi- ble for and has been working on. But to the extent that fying success stories that exist on the ground in com- we're talking about Crown responsibilities, they have munity accountability programs and try to see if there been picked up in large measure by Crown staff. are ways in which we can expand the use of those. I think that over the next little while, there's going to be T. Christensen: In terms of the performance meas- an emphasis on more work with the Solicitor General's ures and the number of total accused persons referred ministry to see if we can collectively identify resources for alternative measures programs, do those numbers and opportunities to expand alternate measures pro- include young offenders, or are those recorded sepa- grams. I recognize that's a challenge in the current fis- rately with the feds? cal climate. My ministry does not in fact program-fund any of those initiatives, so we're standing there firmly Hon. G. Plant: Actually, we're not sure if that par- convinced that more of this is necessary to achieve bet- ticular number includes young offenders, so we'll look ter outcomes in the criminal justice system, but we're into the underlying work that supports the number not going to get there without a certain amount of as- that's in the service plan, and I'll get an answer back to sistance from, well, the Solicitor General and to some the member. extent perhaps also the ministry of state for women's equality and other ministries of Crown. T. Christensen: Regardless of whether the numbers in the current service plan include young offenders or T. Christensen: If an accused is referred to an alter- not, do you anticipate…? I've heard conflicting views nate measures program, how do we track them? Is that on what the impact of the new federal legislation case entered in the JUSTIN system so that we are sort around young offenders is going to be. One group of keeping track of the person, what they've been ac- seems to think it's going to mean a lot more kids going cused of, what the outcome is and, I guess, the poten- into alternative measures–type programs. The other is tial down the road — whether they're a repeat of- basically saying, well, probably not — more status quo. fender? Can the Attorney General comment on that and what you anticipate the…? Assuming that the young Hon. G. Plant: Yes. offender numbers are in here, I would expect the num- ber of people referred to alternative measures, then, to T. Christensen: And is JUSTIN then integrated, or increase. Or should the federal legislation have much is it going to be integrated with the Solicitor General's of an impact? new PRIME police record system? [1945]

Hon. G. Plant: Yes. Hon. G. Plant: It may be that the debate that the member may be seeing out there turns on this point. I T. Christensen: You're giving me the right answers, think British Columbia is already a leading jurisdiction anyway. in terms of the use of alternate measures and diversion Victims of Crime Act. I see that one of the perform- for young offenders. In many respects, I believe that ance measures…. Actually, the performance there ap- the structures and the processes and the spirit and the pears to be very good: 93 percent in terms of victims intent, if you will, of this part of the YCJA, the Youth who are contacted and given an opportunity to provide Criminal Justice Act, were inspired by work that's been a victim impact statement. The goal, obviously, is to done in British Columbia for a number of years. increase that over time. There are certain funds that The question is: as a result of the reforms, will there under the act — I believe it's under the Victims of be an increase or not? To some extent, I think we don't Crime Act — are essentially allocated to a victims of know the answer to that question because some of the crime fund. Where are those dollars spent? processes and tools — right now they exist in a statute — are going to have to be made real in courtrooms. Hon. G. Plant: Ask the Solicitor General. Some of the new settlement conferences and those processes are similar to stuff that's been happening in T. Christensen: Fair enough. British Columbia in the past, but if the judiciary refined In terms of the specific services required under the them or developed them somewhat differently, there Victims of Crime Act in terms of contacting victims, may be different outcomes. trying to get victim impact statements and providing I think one of the intentions of the YCJA is that services to victims, I know that one of the difficult deci- those cases where the young offender does not belong

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6387 inside the traditional criminal justice system should not formance goal. I think the member's question is a good end up there, and we support that initiative. Also, I one. I think the branch would agree that to the extent have to say there isn't quite as much money around to that there are offenders who present as people who expand or, in some cases, even maintain all of the exist- should be subject to those applications, the branch will ing program options that I might like to see in place to make those applications based on the situations that make this real. We have our work cut out for us in exist, not based on some number in the service plan. terms of that. It's more just a figure to tell the public a little bit about I'm not certain I could stand here now and say or what we do. guarantee at least — I'm sure I can't guarantee; I'm not even sure I can safely predict — that the implementation T. Christensen: In terms of the performance meas- of the YCJA in British Columbia will mean a significant ures, the percentage of total accused persons referred change in the existing pattern of alternate measures. to alternative measures programs, the percentage of That's my view. Others may have a different view. total accused persons approved to court for trial — those don't add up to 100 percent. I take it that the T. Christensen: Given that we're talking about prose- other small percentage is the percentage of accused cution services and budgets and things like that, I would persons where the Crown doesn't feel there's suffi- be remiss if I didn't ask what the impact is in terms of two cient…. What's an accused person? Is it somebody for of the really big cases we all know about in this province whom the police have made a recommendation that — one being the Air India and then the other being the there be a charge? Or is an accused person somebody Pickton investigation and eventual prosecution. Could the for whom the Crown has approved the charge? Attorney General comment on those two? Hon. G. Plant: I'm not certain that the two numbers Hon. G. Plant: Just to make sure the picture is ex- added together should equal 100 percent. We don't pressed fully, in addition to some of the high-profile have the exact figures here right now with us with re- cases the member I am sure is referring to like Air India spect to the number of stays of prosecution that may be and Pickton — or rather, including those cases — I entered. One number is intended to indicate one thing, think there are something like 119 murder cases un- and the other number is a different sort of indicator. derway in the criminal justice system in British Colum- The member's question is interesting. When we come bia right now. What that means is that the criminal to think about how to present this information next justice branch administrators are working hard to year, we'll keep that in mind. If the member was con- make the most efficient use of a very valuable group of fused, then others may be, and I don't think that's a Crown counsel and to make sure we can do the job that good confusion to create. is expected of us. I think we are confident we can continue to main- T. Christensen: I guess, just to follow up on that, tain the existing level of service. There are quite a lot of ideally what we would have is something that explains lawyers for the Crown that are on the Air India file. the balance of percentage, whether that's a number of There are not as many, I think, right now on the Pick- cases stayed, or if this in fact includes persons where ton case, which is a resource-intensive case from the the Crown chooses not to approve the charge. Ideally, police perspective. in both those cases, over the course of time we would I think the question is a fair one. I'm sure there are see fewer proceedings stayed and less, perhaps by vir- some Crown counsel who feel they've been working tue of the interaction between police and Crown…. awfully hard lately, and I suspect that will continue. Ideally, police wouldn't be putting forward reports to [1950] Crown where Crown ultimately is deciding not to ap- prove the charge. Anyway, that's just sort of additional T. Christensen: Just in terms of some of the specific comment. performance measures under prosecution services, I [1955] was curious more than anything, in terms of the per- In terms of the further performance measure, the formance measure, about the number of dangerous percentage of victim impact statements received and offender applications made. It's 18, and it's consistent. I used at sentencing, the question that raised to me was guess my question is: why are we measuring perform- the relationship between victim impact statements and ance there based on the number of applications made? the JUSTIN system. That's, I think, in the note here. I Presumably, the number of applications made should take it the goal here is to try and ensure that we're, be based solely on the need to make those applications. number one, getting victim impact statements, pre- It may be that at some point in time we have 50 folks sumably because they give us more information about that we think are dangerous offenders, and we should the impact on the victim but also more information be making applications in respect to all of them; an- about the accused or, by the time they become really other time we may only have ten. Is there some reason relevant, the convicted. We can then put that informa- for that consistency? tion in JUSTIN, which in turn is entered or transferred to PRIME so that when police are dealing with a par- Hon. G. Plant: I think that what this number repre- ticular offender or accused, they've got that additional sents is more an output measure than a particular per- background information in relation to where they

6388 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 might find that person and whether they should or [2000] should not be in the vicinity of a particular potential T. Christensen: I know one of the concerns under victim. the current policy has been that in some cases, the Did any of that make any sense? I know I rambled a Crown is essentially obligated to proceed with the bit there. prosecution of a case that perhaps has very, very little chance of resulting in a conviction. Could the Attorney Hon. G. Plant: I'm not sure if JUSTIN and PRIME General comment briefly on the percentage of these and CORNET, which I think is the acronym for the types of cases that are being stayed relative to the over- corrections system, and CPIC, another acronym, which all percentage of cases that are being stayed, relative to is the Canadian tool…. I'm not sure if all those tools the overall percentage of cases we find end up being working together are intended to permit someone out- stayed? side the criminal justice court part of the system to have a look at a victim impact statement. It may be that Hon. G. Plant: The last number I saw was about 40 that's digging a little deeper into the files, as it were, percent. That is to say, there is about a 40 percent stay than would be contemplated by the use of PRIME in its rate in domestic violence, spousal assault cases. I don't most typical situation, which is going to be attending at want to necessarily lead the member to conclude that a site or an incident and wanting something quickly — the reasons for all of those stays are those that he gave to know about what might be happening here. I also in his question. Clearly, there are many cases where don't know specifically the extent to which the victim that's the result; that's why there is a stay. That may be impact statement is an accessible, searchable document the vast majority of cases. I want to give that number as within JUSTIN. I'll go find that out, but my initial sus- an order-of-magnitude number rather than necessarily picion is that it's not. a scientifically precise number at this point.

T. Christensen: Thank you to the Attorney General T. Christensen: I want to comment on a couple of for explaining that relationship a bit and raising a few things that I'm pretty confident are part of the Attorney more questions as well, I guess. General's review of the spousal assault prosecution The last thing I want to canvass a little bit or speak policy, but I want to put them on the record in terms of about a little bit in terms of prosecution services…. I my own views of what the Attorney General should be know the Attorney General is undergoing a review in looking at. Perhaps he can then confirm that, in fact, he terms of domestic assault policy, prosecution policy. is looking at that. Certainly, that's something of great interest, as the At- To me, there's a twofold impact of whatever policy torney General knows, in my constituency, given that is adopted in the application of the law. The law is ob- my understanding is that some of the current policy viously clear that you shall not assault your partner was based on the Josiah Wood report, which stemmed and that it's wrong to do so and it's criminal to do so. from a couple of tragic incidents in my constituency in But there are two things that occur in respect of a par- particular. ticular policy. One is the general deterrent effect on the I want to say a few things in respect of the spousal community. It seems to be the emphasis under the cur- assault policy. I've spoken with a number of folks in rent policy that provides that there's going to be a my community about it, including members of the le- prosecution in all cases. It sends a message of zero tol- gal profession. What I was very pleased to hear was the erance for spousal assault, and it doesn't allow the ac- absolute confidence in the abilities of Crown counsel to cused to try and coerce the victim into trying to get the be making that determination of whether a particular charge dismissed, because there's no opportunity for accused should be prosecuted in respect of a domestic the victim to do that because it's a zero tolerance type assault or whether they should be referred to an alter- of policy. "Zero tolerance" is the wrong term. It's a native measure. Firstly, that was comforting to hear, "prosecute regardless of the circumstances and regard- and I'm sure that's the type of information the Attorney less of the likelihood of conviction" type of policy. General hears on a consistent basis. The second issue in terms of the policy is, rather But there are a couple of things that, firstly, I'd like than general deterrence, the specific deterrence and clarified. There seems to be some confusion around consequence to the perpetrator. There it gets a little them — the relationship between the prosecution pol- more difficult, in that if you're charged but there's little icy and any policy that the police may have in respect likelihood of conviction, at the end of the day there's of how they deal with a situation where somebody is very little deterrence to the alleged offender. There's no alleged to have assaulted their partner and their charg- effective way to then deal with that perpetrator, which, ing policy. Can you comment on that briefly, in terms I expect, is the primary intent of the alternative meas- of whether it has any influence on the police? ures. Where you're a little uncertain about the likeli- hood of a conviction or the circumstances of the case, Hon. G. Plant: Well, the two sets of policies are you may look at alternative measures programs. distinct. What we've been looking at is the prosecu- Really, I guess the challenge for the Attorney Gen- tion policy. Police policy is not within the scope of the eral is to try and balance those two. The concern I'm review we've been undertaking. I think that's the an- certainly hearing is that the potential impact or the swer. potential change may undermine that general deterrent

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6389 impact on the community at large — that somehow by reasonable course through the minefield of some of the changing the policy, the Crown is no longer taking issues the member rightly identifies that will lead to a spousal assault to be the very serious offence that it is. better implementation of our general objective, which Perhaps the Attorney General could comment on that. is to protect the victims of assault and abuse.

Hon. G. Plant: I think the member has identified T. Christensen: Just to add on to that point. The some of the important issues in the discussion that has one other comment I did hear, particularly from mem- taken place. Really, overall the goal here is to try to bers of the bar, in terms of those spousal assault prose- make sure that we make the criminal justice system a cutions and what they thought would assist in dealing better tool for dealing with spousal assault and there- with those — and I'm sure it would assist in dealing fore send a broader, better message that's more effec- with any specific type of prosecution — was the desire tive and perhaps more effectively heard — that the to have some sort of fast-track of those cases so that the criminal justice system does take spousal assault seri- offence and the consequence are closely linked. Cer- ously. It doesn't treat all cases of spousal assault as tainly, we hear that all the time as a complaint around though they were exactly the same when that is mani- young offenders cases and the need to link the two, festly not the case. and perhaps there's a similar, I guess, exaggerated con- [2005] cern when we're dealing with relationship-based cases We need to recognize that an arbitrary policy pro- too. I simply add that comment. duces arbitrary results, and although the existing pol- I've got a number of other questions. I know there icy is not really written as an arbitrary policy, in prac- are other members that have questions tonight as well, tice it's been implemented in a way that's pretty close so I'm going to yield the floor for a moment. I suspect to arbitrary. It's so inflexibly applied that it has had we'll be back another day, or I know we will. But I some of the impacts that the member has talked about. thank the Attorney General for certainly shedding light What we're really trying to do is just reintroduce a on a number of issues I was concerned about and the reasonable level of the discretion that I believe is fun- general direction of the ministry. damentally necessary in all charging situations. Prose- [2010] cutors who do this work are generally very well trained. We have an ongoing commitment to ensure R. Lee: I would like to ask a few questions of the that the prosecutors who do this work get the training Attorney General. One question is about court services. they need to be able to distinguish among the kinds of We know that one of the strategies to better utilize the cases where the witness may be reluctant for the wrong Provincial Court resources is to remove the municipal reasons as opposed to reluctant for reasons that, really, bylaw disputes from the Provincial Court hearing we better acknowledge and take into account. It's going process. There are proposals to let the municipalities to be up to prosecutors to make those decisions on a handle their own bylaw disputes. What is the status of case-by-case basis, and I'm glad to hear the member this proposal? hears confidence in the community in the ability of prosecutors to make those decisions. At the end of the day I think that we're actually Hon. G. Plant: We are making good progress. We going to see not as much change here as some of the may be in a position to introduce some legislation later opponents of this initiative have claimed — that on a this year that will create the legislative framework for case-by-case basis, much of what has been happening this. We are looking at the possibility of some pilot is going to continue to happen. I just think that we're projects in one or two locations over the next little going to have the tools now to do a better job in more while to see if we can establish a business case for this cases to protect the victim, to protect society at large proposal that makes good sense for the citizens in a and to prevent revictimizing victims where that's a real particular community, so we are making progress. risk. I mean it's easy, frankly, to overstate these things. I R. Lee: How many municipalities are planned to be guess the way the public debate often takes place is in this pilot project? In the final stage, are all munici- that unless the voice of concern has a bunch of pretty palities getting the authority to have their bylaws re- colourful adjectives included in it, there's a fear that solved in their local courts? they won't be heard. Well, I think this is not one of those cases. Hon. G. Plant: We have had discussions, I guess, This is a situation where we've done some pretty with the three municipalities on the North Shore in careful and thoughtful work for over a year now. We Vancouver. That's West Vancouver, the city of North did undertake a public conversation about this issue. Vancouver and the district of North Vancouver. They We heard from people. I think the prosecutors and the have expressed interest in working together to create criminal justice folks responsible for this have done the sort of a joint initiative, and that's an idea that we have best they can to respond to what they heard. We're been discussing with them. very close to actually moving forward on this initiative. I think in all likelihood this is an initiative that will I think we're ready to go — just about. I think that fair- be of more interest in larger urban centres than in minded people will see that we've struck a fair and smaller rural communities. I also think the legislative

6390 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 framework is likely to be a framework that, at least in The Chair: Leader of the Opposition. theory, would be available everywhere. J. MacPhail: Thank you. I understand that the floor R. Lee: Do you anticipate this pilot project will be is ceded to me. happening this financial year? Interjection. Hon. G. Plant: Toward the latter part of the year, we hope. J. MacPhail: Oh, okay. All right.

R. Lee: Is there any impact to the budget? R. Lee: My last question here is about human rights education. I understand that the Ministry of Attorney Hon. G. Plant: We had planned and hope that if General has the responsibility to implement a human this initiative is rolled out completely, it may produce a rights education program to promote an understand- savings of a million dollars a year to the Ministry of ing of the Human Rights Code. How many resources Attorney General budget. As I said earlier, we've pretty are located in this budget? What is the plan to do that? well spent all that money already. It was in anticipation of that savings that we de- Hon. G. Plant: I do apologize to the member. This cided we could make the commitments with respect to is an issue that we canvassed at least once already in circuit courts. That's already used up a portion of the this debate. My recollection is that…. As the member anticipated saving. I would have to say at this point knows, there is a clinic model that has been estab- that we don't anticipate much additional saving that lished, and that has resulted in contracts being entered will make a huge difference in the bottom line for the into or about to be entered into with service providers ministry. who will have responsibility for, among other things, education. The range of the contract price associated R. Lee: I would like to move to justice services. One with the relevant service provider is upwards of $1.3 of the goals of justice services is that the law and justice million. There are also some dedicated staff in the min- services are administered effectively and efficiently. I istry that are responsible for overseeing some of that understand that an objective of the Ministry of Attor- work and will also be responsible for assisting in what- ney General is to encourage greater public use of the ever other initiatives may be undertaken in relation to out-of-court dispute resolution options. Are there any education. increases in the number of disputes settled through the That is a partial answer to the question. I think court mediation program last year? Are there any in- there may have been other parts of the debate of these creases in settlements over the years? estimates where there may be more information than I [2015] can get my fingers on right now.

Hon. G. Plant: If the member is talking about, for J. MacPhail: I have five very brief areas. Two of example, mandatory mediation in small claims court, them are new, and three are just follow-up to our esti- I'm advised that the numbers in terms of settlements mates. The first area is the citizens assembly questions, produced are roughly about the same. In part, that's and then child and youth officer. Those are the two because the resources dedicated to this particular ini- new items that have occurred since the estimates. tiative are holding about the same. That's an example [2020] of a program that's been up and running for a little We had a good debate this afternoon, but I have while, and I think it's proven its success. I don't think some questions just on the actual list of recommenda- the picture is changing much. I think our goal and our tions from Mr. Gibson's proposal and the government's challenge are to expand the kinds of situations where response, mainly relating to budget. On page 2 the people use mediation and other forms of alternate dis- summary makes it clear that the overall budget respon- pute resolution so that we expand the range of cases sibility for the citizens assembly resides with the Minis- where people look at mediation as an alternative. try of Attorney General. On page 5 of the summary — I'm talking about the summary of Mr. Gibson's report R. Lee: I understand that the province has, right — it states that the budget will be set at $5.5 million. now, 120 qualified mediators. What's the number of Can the Attorney General explain how that $5.5 million qualified mediators next year? The plan is that we have gets broken down over the next two fiscal years? Un- 190 by the end of the next year. Are there any support- der what budget line is it or will it be located? ing programs to increase the number of mediators? They need some kind of training. Are there any re- Hon. G. Plant: I don't have the breakdown with sources to train additional numbers of mediators? me. Mr. Gibson's report, I think, had an appendix which showed a breakdown of how he expected — Hon. G. Plant: There are resources. We do assist in what I believe his view was — that about $4.5 million providing training. These people are not employees of would be spent. I'm sure that's at least a starting point the Ministry of Attorney General. The number at pre- or a guide in terms of figuring out what the $5.5 mil- sent is 175, and it's climbing. lion is likely to consist of, recognizing, I suppose, the

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6391 major adjustment in terms of what we have decided to Hon. G. Plant: One possible outcome is that the do compared to what Mr. Gibson recommended. assembly will determine that the existing system is the We've increased the size of the assembly, so we have best option. That will bring an end to the work of the increased the amount that is anticipated to be spent for assembly and, I think, from the government's perspec- per diems for the members of the assembly. tive, an end to the issue. The other possibility is that the Vote 45, in the estimates for '03-04, has a $1.5 mil- assembly will make a recommendation that satisfies lion allocation for the assembly. I think we have, in the the obligations of its terms of reference, which is suffi- service plan for '04-05, $1.7 million. At this point, ciently detailed to be put on the ballot in the general there's a total recognized commitment of $3.2 million. election in 2005 as a referendum question. At this point Based on the anticipated budget of $5.5 million, we will government has no position, necessarily, on whether it continue to have our work cut out for us in my minis- will or will not support that second option. I don't try to find the dollars that are needed if, in fact, the think we will have a position until such time as the assembly costs the full $5.5 million. assembly does its work and decides what it wants to recommend. J. MacPhail: Who monitors the budget and is re- sponsible for the budget? Is that the chair or the Attor- J. MacPhail: Just one question that arises out of ney General? that. My reading of the government's citizens assembly is that there will be one option, not two — the status Hon. G. Plant: Both. I mean, the chair is going to quo and an alternative. Or is it possible to have two manage the expenditures, but ultimately, it's a matter options? that is my ministerial responsibility. Hon. G. Plant: If the assembly decides that the J. MacPhail: Yes, I understand that. Let me ask this status quo is their view, then that's the end of it. If the of the Attorney General: will the chair be required to assembly decides that they have an option they want to make regular reports, quarterly reports, on the cost of put forward, there will be a referendum question ask- the assembly? ing the people of British Columbia if they want to ac- cept that one option. Hon. G. Plant: We don't have a fixed answer to that question, but I think regular reporting is a good thing. J. MacPhail: Status quo doesn't require a referen- When we have a chair in place, we'll have to sit down dum? and work out an arrangement that the chair thinks is reasonable and that also satisfies my obligation to en- Hon. G. Plant: That's right. If the assembly decides sure we are accountable to the public for the expendi- that they believe that first past the post is the best sys- ture of this money. tem for British Columbia, they will report that, and that will be the end of the matter. Only if the assembly de- J. MacPhail: One of the recommendations Mr. Gib- cides that there is another system which they believe son made was that he suggested the hearings of the would be better than the current system will there be a citizens assembly might be televised. What's the Attor- question on the referendum ballot. Now, that question, ney General's view on that? of course, will provide the voters of British Columbia [2025] with an opportunity to vote either for it or against it. I would say a vote against it would be, in effect, a vote Hon. G. Plant: For the most part, I think those are for the status quo then. I think we've been pretty clear matters that the member should take up in her discus- on that throughout — that if the assembly decides that sion with the nominee, Dr. Blaney. I think it's impor- the status quo is what they believe is the best system, tant that the citizens assembly does some part of its then that's the end of the matter. work in public, that it spends some time listening to British Columbians and that it travels. There are some J. MacPhail: Well, perhaps it's just a matter of me pretty fundamental commitments around what I being too busy to thoroughly read everything the would expect the assembly to do. government has put out, but I would have assumed The issue of televising its proceedings may be an that British Columbians would get a vote no matter issue on which the chair himself has a view. I don't what, even on the status quo, because acceptance or know what that view is right now, so I don't have an rejection of that is the final participation of the pub- absolutely hard-and-fast answer to that question. lic. If the government has been clear on that, I missed that. J. MacPhail: That's fair enough. I will do that in the [2030] Selection Committee. The child and youth officer. We did not have a This is my last question on the area of the citizens chance to discuss this because, of course, the new assembly. Regardless of outcome, has the government child and youth officer had not been appointed until made a commitment, or is it implicit that the govern- this week. There are some issues in the transition ment will support the one option being put forward by that I would like to explore with the Attorney Gen- the citizens assembly in the subsequent referendum? eral. The children's commissioner reported that the

6392 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 now defunct Children's Commission oversaw some J. MacPhail: I apologize if I've missed this public 800 fatality reviews and has established a database reporting. Has the Attorney General removed Ms. Mor- that has achieved international recognition. Who ley as the trustee of the Legal Services Society? will now take responsible for reviewing youth fatali- ties? Hon. G. Plant: Not yet.

Hon. G. Plant: As the member knows, because we J. MacPhail: So what's the overlap period? Is Ms. discussed this at some length when we discussed the Morley doing both jobs now? legislation, the answer is the coroner's office. Hon. G. Plant: The appointment of Ms. Morley as J. MacPhail: Yes, but much has changed since then, child and youth officer takes effect tomorrow, and we including…. are very, very close to being in a position to appoint a new board of the Legal Services Society. So the overlap Interjection. that may exist will certainly not exist for very many days. J. MacPhail: I'll just finish. Much has changed. The [2035] size of the coroner's office budget has been changed. It's been reduced, so I'm wondering how…. It will be J. MacPhail: I will await the briefing from the At- interesting to see how a reduced coroner can investi- torney General as the office gets set up. My particular gate 800 fatalities that were previously reviewed by the interest is accountability to the public to ensure that children's commissioner. children remain protected. Is the Attorney General giving direction to the I've got three short areas left, three brief areas. The coroner in terms of priority of reviewing all youth fa- first one arises out of the estimates, the discussion be- talities? tween the Attorney General and me prior to our going on a break from the Legislature — not from our work, Hon. G. Plant: As the member knows, the coroner's but a break from this Legislature. office does not report to the Attorney General. Earlier this month I asked the Attorney General certain questions regarding the treaty negotiations of- J. MacPhail: Sorry, Mr. Chair. I'm not quite sure fice. One of the issues we discussed pertained to the why the minister is treating me that way. I don't have Carrier-Sekani tribe, and the Attorney General de- all of this at my disposal in my memory bank. scribed the Carrier-Sekani table as one that was "not In terms of the office of children and youth, the particularly productive." I have since received a fax minister has just appointed Jane Morley, and what is from Harold Prince, who is the vice–tribal chief of the now…. Has the Attorney General established a report- Carrier-Sekani tribal council. I'll just tell the Attorney ing relationship between the child and youth officer General the date of it: this week, April 28. He was ask- and the Attorney General — frequency, public report- ing if I could raise some of the council's concerns in ing, matters such as that? regard to the Attorney General's comments. I'm summarizing what they sent to me. I'm sorry. Hon. G. Plant: Those are issues that we are work- The fax is so long because they put in the transcript of ing on. I apologize if the member misapprehended the Hansard. They are concerned that the Attorney the way I answered the last couple of questions, be- General has categorized their table as one that is not cause I do know the member has a real and enduring productive. They actually come at it from this perspec- interest in this issue. As we get established in terms of tive. They believe that they signed a bridging agree- the details of those particular questions of the report- ment in good faith. It was done under the previous ing relationship, I will certainly do my best to offer an administration, the former government. There's no opportunity to the member to get a briefing or get question about that, but the bridging agreement was some information about it so she can continue to signed in good faith and was to lead to an interim monitor that. measures agreement. According to their fax, they had asked the govern- J. MacPhail: Thank you for that. The budget for the ment for the comanagement of forest resources, forest child and youth officer for '03-04 is…? tenures as follows: (a) 100,000 cubic metres of long- term, area-based tenure, (b) 400,000 cubic metres of Hon. G. Plant: It's $2.4 million. long-term, area-based tenure from major licensees, (c) 1.3 million cubic metres of short-term, volume-based J. MacPhail: Has the Attorney General established tenures, and then funding in the amount of an initial the location of the office and the head office yet? Or is $6.8 million and then $8.2 million for each year thereaf- there to be one office and, if so, where? ter. They assumed, given the legal nature of negotia- Hon. G. Plant: We're pretty sure it's going to be one tions, that good-faith negotiations meant that things office in Victoria, but those are also issues that are be- aren't removed from the table but they continue to be ing worked on. negotiated. According to the Carrier-Sekani, the Liberal

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6393 government offered them 100,000 cubic metres of a unproductive table, the Carrier-Sekani would say that community forest pilot agreement of area-based tenure the responsibility for that lies at the feet of this gov- and then 400,000 cubic metres of short-term tenure and ernment. no additional funding beyond the $500,000 initially in They then go on in this fax to say: the bridging agreement. This occurred with the new "The ramifications of the Liberal government government, and that led to the Carrier-Sekani's deci- changing the negotiations is that on Thursday and Friday sion to terminate the forestry bridging agreement as of this week the United Nations special rapporteur will well as to take the position that the government has meet with the Carrier-Sekani and other first nations to hear their situation surrounding the forest legislation and negotiated in bad faith. policy changes that are occurring without The Carrier-Sekani wanted me to put that to the accommodation of our concerns while we are negotiating Attorney General as clarification of their position and in good faith at the treaty table. We may reopen our to ask for his response to that. human rights petition at the Organization of American States surrounding the Prince George timber supply area Hon. G. Plant: The member tells me that she has cell allocation process that occurred in 1999 without our summarized from a document I haven't read, and as it consent. happens — having participated in the Attorney Gen- "Three, we will challenge all tenure sales and eral ministry estimates this evening — I don't have renewals within our territory. treaty negotiations office staff with me. "Four, we will bring our concerns to the marketplace to let the world know how unjustly we are being dealt [2040] with. This is just the start of a coordinated financial I am certainly interested in pursuing any and all pressure campaign to challenge the legislation and all the opportunities to find ways to make progress at a treaty proposed tenures until the province decides to meet and negotiations table with the Carrier-Sekani, but having negotiate these changes in good faith. heard what the member said, that sounds to me like "Five, we have requested companies such as Home the description of a treaty table that's not making very Depot to purchase wood certified by the Forest much progress. So I think my original characterization Stewardship Council since this system is the only one was probably not inaccurate. It's certainly not intended that recognizes first nations title and rights. to be critical. It was merely intended to be an observa- "The Carrier-Sekani, along with nearly all first nations in B.C. including the First Nations Summit and tion that at this particular table, there seem to be some the Northwest Tribal Treaty Nations, has asked that no difficulties that impede progress. I'm grateful that the more forest legislation be passed until they are properly member has put those concerns on the table, as it were, consulted and accommodated. and I'll certainly go back and have a look at where "We have asked in writing that Bills 27 and 29 are things are from our perspective. That summary didn't postponed to the fall session of the Legislature in order sound completely different from what I understand is that an accommodation negotiation process be the situation. immediately arranged to deal with these changes. There appears to be a significant gap between what Furthermore, the $200 million in compensation to the forest companies money must be repealed." the Carrier-Sekani had in terms of expectations and I merely say that the Carrier-Sekani thought that what government may have been able to think about the comments of the Attorney General didn't fairly offering. Those are often good reasons why it's not pos- reflect how the negotiations broke down and perhaps sible to make the kind of progress that both parties or the responsibility that this government could assume all three parties might like to make at a particular table. for re-engaging in productive negotiations, so I'll give

this to the Attorney General. J. MacPhail: I was summarizing the document in as balanced a way as I could, but I will read very briefly, My last two areas are…. I'll just give that to the and I will then give this to the Attorney General. Attorney General, but I'm going to move on, if that's…. At the time, the Carrier-Sekani was seeking three Or did you want to…? Sorry. major commitments for an interim measures agreement dealing with forestry: "One, comanagement of forest Interjection. resources through a protocol. We are not solely seeking a mechanism to allow the province to move forward J. MacPhail: I hope and pray, because of the impor- with legislative policy or operational decisions. We tance of that treaty, that negotiations can resume in want an equal voice in all of the above." good faith and with vigour. Forest tenure I've already described to the minister, [2045] and funding I've already described to the minister. This On Thursday, April 10 during question period I then goes on to say: rose in the House to ask the Minister of Community, "Here is what the B.C. Liberal government did to Aboriginal and Women's Services a question regarding facilitate the accusations by the Carrier-Sekani, as they the appeal of a monetary award to the Woodwards acted in bad faith." protesters. At that time the minister stated that it was a That is what I had summarized as what the Liberal matter of principle, that his ministry was attempting to government offered that led to the Carrier-Sekani's recoup the costs awarded to the protesters, costs position. I assume and I believe this to be the Carrier- awarded by the judge. It was a total of $3,900. The Min- Sekani's position. It being labelled as a particularly ister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services

6394 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 has reported publicly that there has been a little less low the progress of the appeal to determine what the than $30,000 spent on an appeal. issues are that are put before the court and what the Was the Attorney General consulted by the Minis- court decides as a way of resolving those issues. ter of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services regarding the decision to recoup the costs awarded to J. MacPhail: That will be done with interest — I can the protesters in the Woodwards decision? guarantee you. I'll have to re-examine, as I read Han- sard, to determine what role the Attorney General actu- Hon. G. Plant: Well, I believe I can recall something ally did play in deciding the appeal. of the circumstances here. As I recall, the issue is My last question concerns a piece of correspon- whether there should be an appeal from an order made dence that the Attorney General received from the Bur- with respect to costs. I believe the decision that was rardview Neighbourhood Association on April 8. The made was that there should be an appeal. That being Burrardview Neighbourhood Association is in my rid- the case, I don't know that there is much else I could ing. It is to the office of the Attorney General. I will say about it, because the matter, I think, is before the read it into the record because there has been no fol- courts. low-up to this letter, and it's quite crucial — no follow- up to date. J. MacPhail: Yes, it is before the courts. I'm merely "Dear Attorney General: asking the Attorney General whether he was consulted. "Re: the appointment of Mr. Alan P. Seckel as Deputy Was that an answer? He recalls it, and he recalls that Attorney General. the appeal is going forward. Was he involved in the "I am the director of the Burrardview decision to pursue? Was his ministry involved in mak- Neighbourhood Association, BNA. The BNA is represented by Mr. David Hobbs and has been successful ing that decision? in a lawsuit against Lafarge Canada Inc., the Vancouver Port Authority and the city of Vancouver. Hon. G. Plant: Well, the best of my recollection is "The Attorney General of British Columbia was an that I was involved in the matter. But the challenge is, intervener in the matter, as there were constitutional frankly, that I'm the government's lawyer, and the ques- issues as to federal and provincial and federal tion is almost completely, I think, caught by solicitor- jurisdiction. client privilege. I've pretty well given the member all "Mr. Seckel has represented the Vancouver Port the information I can in relation to that issue. Authority and, on behalf of the Vancouver Port Authority, has filed an appeal of the decision. The

Attorney General of British Columbia continues to J. MacPhail: Okay. In order for the public to under- intervene and has filed a factum in the appeal, which, stand the matter of principle, they would have to fol- again, generally supports the Burrardview low the appeal. Is that it? Neighbourhood Association's position. "While Mr. Seckel has conducted himself in a Hon. G. Plant: Well, I don't mean to be difficult, but professional manner at all times in this matter, I am the member is cross-examining me on a statement concerned that there is a possibility and a perception that somebody else made. Why doesn't she ask the question Mr. Seckel may now be in a position to unduly influence of the person who made the statement? the position taken by the office of the Attorney General in this matter. What steps do you propose to take to assure me that Mr. Seckel will not either be in the position or J. MacPhail: No, no, I'm just going by memory of appear to be in the position to unduly influence these the role the Attorney General plays in government matters? decisions around courts. That's all. I mean, as far as I "Yours truly, know, the Attorney General's ministry decides these Daniel S. Barber on behalf of the Burrardview matters. I'm not asking the nature of the decision. I'm Neighbourhood Association." just asking if this is a case where it is the standard prac- tice that the Attorney General is involved in making Mr. Barber has not received…. That was sent April the decision to appeal. Then the last question wasn't 8 to the Attorney General, and this is an ongoing case, cross-examination. The Attorney General has said he's as we speak. I also understand that Mr. Barber has kind of invoking solicitor-client privilege. I'm asking written a second letter seeking an answer and has not him for direction on where the public gets the informa- received the reply. When can he anticipate an answer? tion about the appeal. Are they required to follow the My final question is: what steps does the Attorney actual court case to determine the matter of principle General propose to take to assure that Mr. Seckel will that is at stake? not either be or appear to be in the position to influence [2050] these matters?

Hon. G. Plant: Well, I thought originally that the Hon. G. Plant: I'm informed that a reply has been member was asking me to comment on a statement prepared for my consideration. I can only say to Mr. that the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Barber that he's going to get an answer from me a lot Women's Services had made with respect to something faster than most people who write to me, which is a he had done. The fact is that, so far as I can recall, there subject of continuing concern but not material to the is an appeal underway. The member will have to fol- issue the member raises. I believe, though, that there

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6395 will be an answer on its way within the next very, very ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF short while. ADVANCED EDUCATION [2055] (continued) In general terms, the answer is that the Deputy At- torney General has nothing to do with this file. Ar- On vote 9: ministry operations, $1,899,007,000 (con- rangements have been made to ensure that is the case. tinued). There has been communication with the appropriate regulatory authorities to talk about those arrange- Hon. S. Bond: I would like to reintroduce the staff ments, which appears to have resulted in a measure of that are with me at this particular session. I have Jim satisfaction. I am told that if those arrangements — and Soles, assistant deputy minister, post-secondary divi- they'll be discussed in the letter that will be sent to Mr. sion; Tom Vincent, assistant deputy minister, manage- Barber — are not satisfactory to Mr. Barber, then I will ment services division; and Arlene Paton, director, be inviting him to contact my ministry to determine public institutions branch. what else, if anything, needs to be done.

J. MacPhail: As I said off the record, I'm going to be J. MacPhail: A very final question: has Mr. Seckel discussing Vancouver Community College. Just a bit of started, and is in he in the room? I missed the introduc- background of where I'm coming from. Earlier this tions. Sorry. year Vancouver Community College — I'm going to

refer to it as VCC, if that's acceptable to everyone — Hon. G. Plant: There were no introductions, because announced a projected shortfall of $5.8 million for '03- this was the continuation of the estimates. Mr. Seckel is in 04. Of course, we did have a discussion earlier about the room and has been sitting beside me this evening. the new moneys that are going to Vancouver Commu-

nity College, but the projected shortfall was the reason J. MacPhail: Thank you very much — and welcome behind VCC raising their tuition this year from $210 a to the new Deputy Attorney General. month to $275 a month. At least seven programs were Mr. Chair, noting the hour, I move that the commit- considered for closure, and close to some 70 faculty tee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. and staff members were laid off.

Now, most people here know that VCC is a unique Motion approved. part of B.C.'s post-secondary system — very unique, I

would say. Many of its programs require specialized The committee rose at 8:56 p.m. equipment and small class sizes, and that makes deliv-

ering services more expensive, perhaps, than some The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. other forms of education. As VCC people would put it,

they're being treated as the one-size-fits-all funding Committee of Supply B, having reported progress, approach from the Ministry of Advanced Education. was granted leave to sit again. Now, having said that, I do acknowledge that of the

allocation of the $12 million, OUC got a marginal rate Committee of Supply A, having reported resolu- of about $300 per student and VCC, I think, got a mar- tion, was granted leave to sit again. ginal rate of about $8,000. Maybe I'm wrong on that,

but they got a marginal rate that was at the higher end. Hon. M. Coell moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved. The Chair: Twenty-one thousand.

Mr. Speaker: The House is adjourned until 10 a.m. J. MacPhail: Yes, $21,000. That's right. Thank you. tomorrow. But some of these concerns still remain. Has the minister or her staff met with VCC directly on concerns The House adjourned at 8:58 p.m. raised?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, I did meet directly with the president and the board chair of the college more than once, I believe, but one time most recently related to PROCEEDINGS IN THE this. At that time I arranged with them to have my staff DOUGLAS FIR ROOM meet with them on subsequent occasions. Two of my staff people have met with different groups of people, Committee of Supply including the president, board chair, staff at the institu- tion and the faculty as well. The House in Committee of Supply A; L. Mayen- court in the chair. J. MacPhail: I've received information from VCC students, faculty and staff. I guess the most current The committee met at 5:30 p.m. information would have been about two weeks ago.

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Has the minister met subsequent to that? Otherwise, I'll We recognize the challenges there. In short, we're go- just make my information known. ing to continue to work with VCC to create a plan to bring them as close to their target as absolutely possi- Hon. S. Bond: Neither I or my staff has met with ble. Then we'll be looking at each institution's targets VCC staff, faculty or students in the last two weeks. for next year, to make sure they're reasonable and as reasonable as possible. J. MacPhail: Okay. So my information has not [1740] changed as a result of a meeting with the ministry or minister. J. MacPhail: I appreciate that, but there is some If I could just give a backgrounder — this was, as I urgency to this matter. Let me just put that urgency on said, received two weeks ago — on student access and the record. The VCC board at the beginning of this faculty layoffs. This is an analysis that was done after month, on April 3, imposed its second tuition increase the board tabled its budget, and I assume it was within the last 12 months. The second increase in tui- passed, that the college plans to not deliver its full tion was at least 30 percent. The cumulative tuition quota of 7,900 full-time student spaces by not deliver- increase since 2002 is now 82 percent in tuition, but the ing at least 700 FTEs. This will affect at least 1,200 stu- ESL tuition increase is a cumulative 98 percent. ESL dents, and almost 500 of those FTEs that are not going fees are now $412.50 for three months at half-time. to be filled are being taken from ESL programs. That's about 12 hours per week. Some fees are actually [1735] going to rise by over 300 percent. Of course, the minister knows that many of my Hon. S. Bond: Just to comment. The anticipated constituents attend Vancouver Community College cuts, as we understand them, in January were 776 because of its excellent record in English-language FTEs. Since that time, and with the work we have done, training. I'm proud to say that now over 40 percent of there has been an increase in a number of areas, but 140 my constituents in Vancouver-Hastings have Chinese seats specifically have been restored to ABE and ESL. as a first language and English as a second language. That number is no longer 776. We've actually worked Let me read you this letter from one my constitu- with them, and they're restoring 140 of those seats to ents. It's a young woman whose name is Cindy Lho. ABE and ESL. She sent this letter to me earlier this year. "Dear Ms. MacPhail: J. MacPhail: Yes, and thank you for that informa- "I'm writing this letter to you because I am concerned tion. It's my understanding, as of April 3 when the about the increasing tuition at VCC. I am a current board passed its budget, that this is the current infor- student at VCC and live in your riding. mation: VCC is going to underdeliver by approxi- "Increasing tuition fees will affect me a lot. I am a mately 10 percent across, and 500 of the 700 underde- full-time student and don't have a job. I still depend on livered FTEs will come from ESL. That's why I was my parents. However, my parents earn just enough money for living and my education. If the tuition fees asking yesterday about what happens to colleges that increase, they cannot afford to pay the tuition fees for me. don't meet their quotas. That means I might not be able to go to school anymore. "As an immigrant, my English is limited. It's not Hon. S. Bond: The encouraging news is that my staff good enough to enter university or look for a job yet. My is continuing to work with Vancouver Community Col- goal is to graduate from university and find a good job so lege. We recognize the challenges they have expressed to that I can support myself instead of depending on my us. I think we've demonstrated that by meeting with parents or the state. them and restoring funding where appropriate. We con- "If I don't go to school to study English, my English tinue to work on a plan with them. We're simply going will not be improved and I will never reach my goal. Of course, I don't want to be in this situation. Therefore I to continue to work with them to say: "Here are the tar- write to you to ask for some help. I'm wondering if you gets that we think are reasonable, and we're going to can do something to help me and a lot of students here at have you work with us to create a plan to bring them to VCC. as close to 100 percent as possible." "I hope after reading this letter you will care about the The other thing I've said as I've met with institu- problem that we are facing. I appreciate your reading about tions and presidents from every institution is that each what can be done about the problem and paying attention to year we're going to look at their capacity and their tar- this letter. I'm looking forward to hearing from you." gets to make sure they're actually deliverable. As we continue to look at VCC's case, we're doing a number Hon. S. Bond: I appreciate the Leader of the Oppo- of things. We're going to look at how we're counting sition's sharing that letter. FTEs, because we want to make sure there are no disin- Certainly, one of the things that motivated us as we centives. We want to make sure we're counting them looked at the unique nature of Vancouver Community accurately and appropriately and if there's something College, and certainly, letters like that which we have in the system that is causing an issue. received from students…. We have worked very hard We're also looking at the issue of ESL across the to restore additional funding. We are continuing to system, to say: "How are we delivering it? Is it the most work with Vancouver Community College on a plan efficient way? Are there other ways to deliver ESL?" that would see them not simply deliver on their targets

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6397 but also look at the evolution of those numbers over women in the area of high school completion and then the next number of years. access-to-work and post-secondary training. But there The board had very difficult choices to make, and are particular programs: education and employment the issue of tuition is never an easy one. I can simply access for women — that's EEAW, and basic employ- say that we recognize the nature of VCC. I've been very ment skills training — BEST. Those are going to be pleased with the work my staff has done with the insti- combined into a new program that is less than half as tution to try to find as many areas of support and re- large as the current two programs. They will provide sources as we can, and I can simply say on the record 11.7 FTEs as opposed to the former 30 FTEs. that we will continue to work with Vancouver Com- I've given the minister the information about the '03- munity College. We recognize the nature of the institu- 04 budget and the surplus. There's also information here tion. The board does have difficult choices to make. — now, this is also interesting — that the minister may We do care about English as a second language. In want to look into. It's the issue around FTEs. When fact, my ministry, along with the Ministry of Commu- you're talking about post-secondary education, just for nity, Aboriginal and Women's Services, has launched the record, FTEs means student FTEs. In other public an English-language training services review to look at service discussions we have, that means the workers the development of our plan to ensure that we have a providing the services. This package shows the total long-term and effective delivery of English-language number of student full-time equivalents that the college training programs. It is a priority, and we will continue is planning on delivering in each of its programs. to work with Vancouver Community College. This is page 15 of the budget that was presented and passed on April 3 at the college. The total VCC J. MacPhail: Well, I expect that's probably the line, on page 15 of their budget, shows a planned de- maximum of what the minister can say. livery of 7,182.36 FTE student spaces for '03-04. The Let me offer other statistics from what's happening production targets below it are what the ministry ex- at VCC. It will take me a few minutes to do this, be- pects and are taken from the funding letter that they cause it is quite important. In addition to the statistics received in March of '03. They total 7,903. The differ- I've already given the minister…. And I do want to say, ence of 720.64 FTEs or student spaces means a loss of Mr. Chair, that all of these statistics have been updated access to well over 1,000 individuals or potential stu- since the minister's March 18 announcement of addi- dents, since in the programming areas that they're cut- tional money being given to VCC. ting, most students come half-time. Student-assistance money for the Adult Basic Edu- Mr. Chair, if I may indulge, I'm going to put this cation Student Assistance Program goes half as far and information on the record. Then we have to rise at that therefore runs out twice as fast, and that is slowing point anyway, and then we can carry on. Is that okay? enrolment. Forty-five instructors and a half-dozen staff [1750] got a layoff notice or a reduction that will take effect this summer. Subsequent to this, my information is that The Chair: Yes, it is. there also are no administrative layoffs, so the minister and her staff could certainly look into that. J. MacPhail: Thank you. It will only take me a min- [1745] ute. My apologies. This is the curious aspect of the budget that I want to March 25, in a letter to the minister from the Fac- point out to the minister. It's something that I'm going to ulty Association of Vancouver Community College, it be discussing as a general premise. Perhaps we won't get says, halfway down: to it before our break. VCC's budget, which they passed "We greatly appreciated the good work President April 3, has a surplus of about $1.5 million built into it. Dorn and your staff" — meaning the minister's staff — The surplus is made up of the projected cumulative ex- "have done over recent months that resulted in almost $600,000" — and that's what we discussed earlier, Mr. cess of $1.07 million, which they're putting in their own Chair — "to assist VCC in overcoming the particular budget. Then they've budgeted $400,000 for new initia- difficulties caused by the change from envelope funding tives, which are not, upon questioning, being spent. An- to block funding. other $376,000 is for new severance costs. "Nevertheless, we were dismayed to find that this will Of course, it was curious about that, because cer- not completely go to mitigating the planned cuts, as was tainly the layoff notices and the calculation of those stated in the funding letter from Deputy Minister layoff costs had already been incorporated in another Armstrong. To quote from that letter: 'It is anticipated that line. That's just an aside. That makes us very curious. this funding will assist VCC in mitigating some of the reduction in developmental programming in 2003-04.' Here are the programs with severe reductions. "In fact, at college forums, the president announced Adult basic education. There's a reduction of one-third that while half would be used in this way, some of it was of the seats for adult basic education over the course of going to new programs that we have not offered before." '02-03 and '03-04. A one-third reduction in the pro- We can carry on these discussions afterward. grams delivering ESL over the years '02-03 and '03-04. I move that the committee recess until 6:35 p.m. As of September 2003, just as a note, the levels will be 1,000 FTEs lower than the March '02 levels. The committee recessed from 5:51 p.m. to 6:41 p.m. Of course, adult basic education and ESL are two programs that are taken up greatly by youth and [G. Trumper in the chair.]

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J. MacPhail: I'm just wondering — I put that infor- J. MacPhail: I'm wondering if the minister has had mation on record — whether there's a reply. a chance to get the cost pressures for '03-04 on the insti- tutions. I asked for that yesterday. Hon. S. Bond: Well, in fact, the reply is simply this one. We have recognized the circumstances of VCC. Hon. S. Bond: We do have some information. We have worked incredibly hard to help mitigate the Hopefully, this is what the Leader of the Opposition circumstances as best we can. We have given them the would like. We were a bit surprised to be up so quickly maximum amount of resources this year. As the Leader again today. of the Opposition points out, they are carrying a sur- Universities, colleges and institutes face wage pres- plus. sures across the sector of $31.45 million and CPP rate increases totalling $3.36 million. [L. Mayencourt in the chair.] J. MacPhail: Thank you for that information. The One of the things that institutions have said to us institutions are actually in a deficit situation, even with over time is they want the ability to look at a three-year the $12 million. There are almost $35 million of pres- budget envelope. That's exactly what this institution sures that aren't inflation pressures, that are pressures has decided to do. We are going to continue to work created by governments. I use the term "governments." with VCC to urge them and to work with them to meet CPP pressures are from the federal government, and their targets. Ultimately, the board of this institution wage pressures are from the provincial government. will make these decisions. They will look at the evolu- They've got $35 million of pressures and $12 million of tion of their institution. We will continue to work with actual increased money over last year. I note that for them, but at the end of the day these are board deci- the record. All of the institutions are still in a situation sions. They are making strategic decisions about how where they can't even stay even with the funding in to budget and what courses are appropriate and terms of the pressures they face. important for their institution. We will simply continue Did you answer the adult basic education question? to work with them. Hon. S. Bond: We said we'd get the numbers back J. MacPhail: How much money does the province to you. We'll get them to you. get from the federal government for English-language training? J. MacPhail: Oh yes. I'm sorry. I say this to the minister: the questions I had pre- Hon. S. Bond: We receive $45 million. Not all of pared on industry training and apprenticeship I will that comes to Advanced Education. We get $20 million save for the debate of the legislation. If I could just get of that, which is used throughout the system. The Min- the agreement of the minister, I will be asking details- istry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services of-funding questions in the debate of the Legislature. receives $25 million. Hon. S. Bond: That would be fine. I think there is a

section in the bill that speaks to appropriation. If we J. MacPhail: Is there a way of tracking to make sure could handle it all there, that would be excellent. I ap- that all of the federal funding in the post-secondary preciate that. system for English-language training goes to English- [1850] language training? J. MacPhail: That's what I noted too. Just for the Hon. S. Bond: Yes, indeed. We do track those dol- record, Mr. Chair, that's where I'll be doing the discus- lars. We report back to the federal government. In fact, sion. I'm going to go in order. I'll try to get the fewer- we spend $20 million, if not more than that, and we are questions sections finished. accountable to the federal government for those dol- BCcampus and Open Learning. The minister had a lars. brief discussion with the member for Prince George– Omineca, but if I could have a status of BCcampus…. J. MacPhail: The last question around VCC has to From the discussions we had last year till now, what do with adult basic education. Adult basic education has occurred? used to be free. The tuition for it was free. Does the minister have any tracking of how many Hon. S. Bond: Sorry for the delay. FTEs there are for adult basic education in the colleges We have the implementation steering committee up and universities system, and does she have any infor- and running. It has met three times. We have allocated mation about how many are now in the K-to-12 system $2.8 million. We are working on and very shortly we'll as well? be pleased to open — I can't do it tonight — the project [1845] office. The location of it will be announced very shortly. We have the implementation steering commit- Hon. S. Bond: We will be happy to provide that tee. We are looking at advertising for an executive di- information to you. The staff don't have it with them rector. We are developing the on-line registration pro- tonight. gram, which will be piloted in the fall. All the institu-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6399 tions are at the table and are feeling very positive about courses outside. That one is not one of them. But the the progress to date. That does, as you know, include whole point and, we hope, opportunity through students as well. So three times, in terms of the whole BCcampus is for courses like that to be developed so group — a very positive beginning, with people feeling that they can be offered on line. that this has been a worthwhile effort to date. We're If it would be helpful to the Leader of the Opposi- making several announcements in the short term. tion, my staff would be happy to contact the student that's concerned, and we could see if there are any J. MacPhail: So what's the status of Open Learning other options available to them. We'd happy to do that. Agency and Knowledge Network? If she wouldn't mind sharing the information, we'd be happy to follow up. Hon. S. Bond: As we indicated, I would be asking the board of the Open Learning Agency for a transition J. MacPhail: Yes, I'd be happy to do that. I'm just plan. I did receive that plan, and most of that has been going to get permission from the person who e-mailed made public. The important pieces are that Open Uni- me first, but I'd be happy to do that. versity and Open College will be maintained. The $2.8 million. Can the minister give me a break- We are currently looking at using an expression of down on how that's going to be spent in this fiscal? interest for the public institutions to ask them to ex- [1900] press to us how they might manage Open University and Open College. We recognize the importance of Hon. S. Bond: The budget is being refined by the those particular programs, and they will be main- implementation steering committee, but $1.5 million tained. We're looking forward to actually enhancing will be used for program and course development. those services, working with a public institution that is That's the actual placing of courses and preparation of successful through an expression of interest. them. Approximately $400,000 — and I say that care- In terms of the Knowledge Network, to answer the fully, that it's approximately — is for the on-line regis- Leader of the Opposition's question, the Minister of tration system as we develop that. We also are work- Finance actually has the lead now. We are working ing, obviously, to staff the office and hire a CEO. In with Partnerships B.C. to look at all the options and addition, we're doing some developmental things potential that remain with the Knowledge Network — around student services, including advising and library how best to make sure we maximize the resources that services for students. That would represent the invest- have been invested in the Knowledge Network. That is ment that we've made. under the leadership of Minister Collins. [1855] J. MacPhail: How much did the designing and un- veiling of the new logo cost? J. MacPhail: What is the enrolment for Open Learn- ing Agency this year through the various programs? Hon. S. Bond: We don't have that number with us, but we're happy to find it and get that information for Hon. S. Bond: The enrolment at the Open Learning the Leader of the Opposition. Agency is 2,654 students this year. I should've added in the BCcampus question — if I J. MacPhail: Thank you. could just go back to that for a minute — that we have Can the minister update me on the Sea to Sky Uni- added 230 additional seats in on-line learning, and versity, please? those are spread across the institutions that are partici- pating in BCcampus. So we have added 230 seats there Hon. S. Bond: The Sea to Sky University Act was and 2,654 in the Open Learning Agency. passed in May of 2002. That legislation enables the creation of Sea to Sky University. At this point in time J. MacPhail: That actually leads me to a question I there has been no formal process in place for Sea to have about accessing on-line learning. In order to be a Sky. In fact, they are waiting, I'm sure, for the comple- student of the Justice Institute, even as an on-line stu- tion of the degree of the quality assessment process, dent, is one restricted to having a residence in the because, as was made clear, it will need to undergo a lower mainland? I got an e-mail from someone today quality assessment process before it can begin to grant — well, she sent it yesterday; she was watching the degrees or offer programs in British Colombia. estimates — who is from Prince George and wanted to access distance courses for youth probation officer J. MacPhail: Are there any tax dollars that are flow- through the Justice Institute. But she can't, because ing now to the Sea to Sky University? apparently it's delivered only through the Justice Insti- tute, and no courses are on line. Hon. S. Bond: No, there are not, and there will not be. It will be a private institution, and there will not be Hon. S. Bond: The youth probation course is only public dollars going to Sea to Sky University. offered face to face, so the student would actually have to attend the Justice Institute, although they do certain J. MacPhail: I'm doing my smaller-area questions courses around the province — that is, they take before we finish on tuition.

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I had a question from yesterday sent in as they leges increased tuition fees last year — every single one were watching the debate, but also it relates to a ques- of them last year. tion of funding of organizations, sort of advocacy or- This is a list of the increases for this year. The in- ganizations or service delivery organizations. How creases last year were an average of 30 percent to 40 much funding does the…? Or is the government still percent. Then, this year, what I have gleaned so far is funding…? that Northern Lights College has increased tuition an The minister will know this better than me, so I'll additional 25 percent. University of Northern British just put the question out. The relationship of the CFS — Columbia had an additional 33 percent increase in tui- Canadian Federation of Students — to the collection of tion. Malaspina University College, in the second year, fees. Has anything changed around that? increased tuition an additional 29 percent. Northwest And then, I'll just read this question from yester- Community College: the second year of increases in day, from the public. itself is a 40 percent increase. "I would be interested to know how much funding B.C. Institute of Technology, in its second year of organizations such as the University Presidents Council, increases, raised fees between 10 percent and 27 per- the B.C. College Presidents and the University Colleges cent. University College of the Fraser Valley's second Consortium receive directly from the post-secondary round of increases in the one year alone was 47 per- system. It seems strange to me that these organizations cent. University of British Columbia: second year of receive government funding via the post-secondary increases in a row of 30 percent. University of Victoria's system to lobby government for more funding." second round of increases was 30 percent, and at North [1905] Island College, the second round was 36 percent.

[1910] Hon. S. Bond: There has been no change in the way Many institutions are suggesting that they will be the Canadian Federation of Students — the relation- carrying on these increases right through to '05-06. It ship with the collection of fees…. There has been no has been estimated by the predictions of the institu- change, and there's no formal process underway in my tions that tuition fees may rise by as much as another ministry dealing with that. 45 percent by '05-06. That basically means that post- In terms of the funding of groups like the Univer- secondary education costs during this government's sity Presidents Council, institutions contribute to the mandate will have risen for the individual…. With the funding for those groups to exist. I guess, from our compounding factor and the rollup costs as a result of perspective, I simply point out that for the University inflation, it could be as high as 140 percent — 140 per- of British Columbia, for example, only 39 percent of cent under these Liberals' mandate. What is the minis- their funds come from public dollars. Institutions have ter's tracking of tuition fee increases for '03-04? a variety of sources of funding. Out of their total reve- nue they fund those particular organizations. Hon. S. Bond: To be candid, our tracking at this

point very much reflects what the Leader of the Oppo- J. MacPhail: Does the minister have the budgets of sition has just listed. those organizations? J. MacPhail: Last year we had a discussion that the Hon. S. Bond: No, we don't. They are not required institutions were going to be encouraged to expand the to file budgets with government because they are bursary system. What has been the success of that? I'd funded through the institutions, so we do not have like to start with the five universities on that, please. their budgets. Hon. S. Bond: We don't have the breakdown insti- J. MacPhail: Does the minister or her staff know tution by institution, but we can tell you this. There whether they're subject to FOI? was $70 million generated across the system in tuition last year, and $14 million of that went to student finan- Hon. S. Bond: We would actually have to speculate cial assistance in one form or another. to answer that. We don't know the answer to that. But institutions, of course, are subject to FOI, so it may be J. MacPhail: Seventy million additional dollars in that through an institution, you may be able to access tuition fee hikes, and $14 million of that went to stu- that. We don't actually know the exact answer to that. dent financial assistance. Was it income-based student financial…? Or was it scholarships? J. MacPhail: Okay. I'm just wondering how we could get that information, so I'll just investigate that Hon. S. Bond: There was a combination of support, myself. both bursary and scholarship. Most institutions chose All right. I'm moving to tuition increases now. I just the path of assigning a percentage of tuition revenue to want to outline for the minister what I have gleaned so student financial assistance. We assume at this point — far on tuition increases for the '03-04 academic year. we could name some specifics, but to be safe — that This is the second year of tuition increases under this between 15 percent and 25 percent of tuition revenue at government's mandate. All B.C. universities and col- most institutions would be assigned to student finan-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6401 cial assistance — bursaries and scholarships. That was cess to university. I wondered whether his cabinet col- the number that was chosen. league had raised it at a federal-provincial-territorial meeting. J. MacPhail: One would have to remove "scholar- I want to quote from an article what Finance minis- ships" from that accounting if one is actually trying to ter John Manley said. This article is from January 26 of accommodate students who can't afford the tuition this year, so it's before the federal budget. The minister increases. I would appreciate a breakdown of what may have some comment on that. I'll just read quotes exactly the funding is that is going toward income- from it: based bursaries to accommodate students who can't "Finance minister John Manley criticized provincial afford the tuition fee increases. governments Saturday for ever-increasing university tuition fees and pointed for comparison to Ireland, where Hon. S. Bond: Institutions are expected to report free university tuition turned a depressed economy into a booming Celtic tiger. 'The key to the Irish miracle was out to the standing committee on the use of their tui- free education. That was the stimulus that brought the tion revenue. They've actually been excellent in dem- investment. The investment allowed for corporate tax onstrating the usages, and UBC was basically a tem- breaks.'" plate for how the description was done. It was literally Just as an aside, what Mr. Manley is referring to line-by-line, dollar-by-dollar on where the tuition there is that companies invested in Ireland because revenue went and how it benefited students. of the skilled workforce, and therefore the govern- At this point we can attempt to break down for the ment itself was allowed to give corporate tax breaks Leader of the Opposition the scholarships and the bur- on the basis of that investment. I'll carry on quoting sary portion, and we will attempt to do that. I guess from the article. This is another quote from Mr. from my perspective, while I understand the bursary Manley: side of things, I also believe that scholarships are a very "'I advocate everybody getting access who's qualified important part of helping students finance their educa- to post-secondary education. I think it's of crucial tions. I get the difference, but I also think it's important importance to the future of Canada.' that both of them assist students as they move forward. "He said the federal government is trying to help We will attempt to do a breakdown. We have not universities by granting funding for research and equipment and by providing loans and scholarships to done that at this point. students, but he said the intent is undone when [1915] provinces continue to raise tuition fees. "'I'm frustrated by our transfer system where we give J. MacPhail: Just a couple of things. The purpose of money and it goes into the big provincial pot, and we scholarships is to reward those who have high marks, have no say in how it's spent. I'll be damned if I'm going regardless of income. The children of wealthy families to put more money into it for the provinces just to raise apply for scholarships as well. If $14 million of $70 mil- tuition fees and take the money out of the back pocket. I lion — 20 percent of the tuition hikes — went toward think the got it wrong when they gave post-secondary education to the provinces, but scholarships and bursaries, I can pretty much predict that I don't think we can revise that now.'" it's substantially less…. Let's just be conservative and say I'll just read what the article goes on to say: that less than 20 percent of the hike went to accommo- "'The federal Liberal government is at least partly to date income-challenged students. Of course, the fee hikes blame for rising tuition costs and for the system of were 30 to 40 percent, so there are people falling through transferring funds to the provinces. In 1995 the Liberals the cracks. There's no other way of interpreting that ex- combined the transfer payments for education, health cept that there are people falling through the cracks. I and welfare — once separate budget items — into a would very much appreciate that information. single lump sum. They then slashed the total from $16.7 Has the minister had a federal-provincial-territorial billion in '95-96 to $12.6 billion in '97-98, according to the figures from the federal Finance department.' This is meeting with her colleagues since the federal Finance interesting: 'The federal transfer for education, health and budget has been brought down? welfare did not recover until the 2001-02 budget, when it hit $17.3 billion.'" Hon. S. Bond: Yes, I have. As a matter of fact I met I actually wasn't going to make this partisan political with other ministers and my territorial colleagues, we point, but what the hell — I'm here. believe, in April. It has been really busy. I'm quite cer- So it's the people who suffered. It was the gov- tain it was April that we met in London, . ernment of the nineties that suffered from the cuts of the transfer payments, and that government here kept J. MacPhail: Was the federal government there — tuition fees frozen. Now we have a restoration of the federal representative? transfer payments, and this government is raising tuition fees. I'm wondering whether there is a federal- Hon. S. Bond: There was a representative that met provincial-territorial meeting where this item is on with deputies, but certainly no one was there to meet the agenda. with us as ministers. [1920]

J. MacPhail: I was very interested in comments that Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, from our perspective it is federal Finance minister John Manley made about ac- not on a joint minister's agenda. Provinces very much

6402 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 believe in provincial jurisdiction of educational mat- As we looked at our budget, one of the things we ters. While we may discuss tuition sort of peripherally, did was increase our student financial assistance it is not a matter of discussion at our table. While I'm budget by $8.7 million. The studies are mixed; the re- interested in John Manley's comments, I guess, ulti- views are mixed. But from our perspective, certainly, mately, he could simply send a cheque. we're concerned about access. We believe that those students will still have opportunities. And I must say J. MacPhail: But his point is that he did in '01-02. I'm always impressed by institutions that have created And they continue to do this year, after cutting at least policies that ensure no student who qualifies to attend the last seven years ― well, from '95-96 through to '01. an institution — UBC, for example — will be turned They do continue to increase transfer payments to the away because of financial need. provinces. During the tuition freeze, British Columbia univer- J. MacPhail: However, the distribution of bursaries sities continued to rank close to the top. I'm thinking of was a much higher percentage in Ontario. I'm going to the Maclean's annual universities surveys. I also under- get to that in a minute. stand that Maclean's annual universities surveys have Secondly, the student financial assistance program flaws in them. However, they are regarded by parents in British Columbia is a $165 million program, so an $8 and students, and institutions never challenge the million increase is about a 5 percent increase. We also rankings. They express either pleasure or disappoint- know that the reallocation of tuition fee hikes to bur- ment, but they do not challenge the rankings. saries is nowhere near proportionate to what the fee SFU, UBC and UVic were all consistently rated in hikes are. On top of that, I will just reiterate that the the top five in their respective categories. Now, I am institutions across the board have cost pressures im- not standing here yet and making the link between posed on them from the two levels of government far higher tuition rates and quality of education, either exceeding — over triple — the amount of money positively or negatively. But it is intuitive — and I will they're getting as a budget lift this year. challenge anyone to tell me I'm not right, given the What's the change in completion rates for students information around bursaries — that higher tuition at the post-secondary level? rates do limit students from low- and middle-income families from accessing post-secondary education. Hon. S. Bond: At this point we don't have specific It's also interesting to note that in the Maclean's outcome data on whether or not there have been faster university rankings this year, in '03, UBC has dropped completion rates, because we just did that last year. to No. 5 from No. 2 in the medical doctoral area. That Having said that, we have heard anecdotally from stu- was where they were: No. 2 ranking. SFU has dropped dents that they are able to get into more sections. There to No. 3 from No. 2 in the comprehensive rankings, are opportunities for them to take classes they didn't and UVic remains at No. 4. UNBC is rising from posi- have previously. tion 14 to position 8 in their undergraduate area, but it is interesting to note that UNBC's undergraduate tui- [G. Trumper in the chair.] tion fees are now at the top. Has the minister had a chance to look at this? Also, institutions have been asked to document [1925] what they did with tuition dollars. What they did was hire more teachers, add more sections, add things to Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, I do read the Maclean's the library, get better equipment. They are very much rankings, as I'm sure other parents do. I am a parent of focusing on the issue of getting students through the post-secondary students. system at a more appropriate speed. We knew that Having that said that, while we look at the rank- students were taking sometimes five years to complete ings, one thing is that very often between second and — often not by choice, sometimes by choice. third place, it's a tenth of a percent. Oftentimes, it's a I just want to go back to one question and get it off very small difference. The fact of the matter is, from my our long list of things we have to get back to the Leader perspective — and, yes, as the Leader of the Opposi- of the Opposition. The University Presidents Council tion has pointed out, there may have been changes in and the other organizations the Leader of the Opposi- ranking — our institutions continue to be excellent. tion asked about are not covered by freedom-of- They are extraordinary in the country. We're proud of information legislation, so if they have records, I guess, them, and we need to continue to support them. with a particular institution, you may be able to access In terms of the issue of whether tuition hinders it that way. access, we've looked at studies, and there are studies I did just want to comment, also, that as we talk about that reflect both points of view. But it was very inter- the issue of tuition and tuition increases and the fact that esting to note that an Acumen study in Ontario around there are, as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, a tuition found that when tuition went up, there was a number of challenges, from our perspective we have in- higher percentage of lower-income students who actu- creased student financial assistance by $8.7 million, recog- ally applied to attend university, because as tuition nizing the need for additional resources. went up, student financial assistance also went up. Institutions have been very responsible about re- That's an important principle to remember. turning $14 million of revenue to students in this prov-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6403 ince, either through bursaries or scholarships, and we'll J. MacPhail: I know, I know. Me neither. check the breakdown. We have continued to try to add What is going to be the consequence of these two as many dollars to institutions as we possibly can. factors — a larger age cohort here in British Columbia We're working hard to focus on student needs, and we and the double cohort from Ontario? The net effect of will continue to do that throughout this budget year. the funding is actually a decrease, given the cost pres- [1930] sures of universities, starting this year and definitely continuing in the decline next year, '04-05. J. MacPhail: How are completion rates being [1935] tracked? Hon. S. Bond: In fact, the number of seats we have Hon. S. Bond: Student outcome surveys are done planned for in our budget — and we are pushing insti- annually, and this does include information about how tutions to deliver in a variety of ways and making sure fast a student would complete an entire program and they are at maximum capacity — is actually 2 percent. also whether they face any challenges getting into any It is double the growth rate. The growth rate in that particular sections or courses. cohort is expected to be 1 percent. We're growing the seats by 2 percent because we recognize the need to J. MacPhail: When can we expect it for this com- increase access. pleted academic year? In terms of the double cohort in Ontario, we under- stand that as recently as yesterday, the Ontario gov- Hon. S. Bond: We do the tracking yearly. Having ernment said they are going to make sure they can ac- said that, the students who began in the first year of commodate the double cohort. One of the interesting deregulated tuition won't graduate for four years, so in things I've learned as minister is that we are actually a fact, we will be assessing graduates that have started in net exporter of students. More of our students choose the middle of that. Students that started at the begin- institutions that better serve their needs in terms of ning of the deregulated tuition process won't graduate choice or geography or whatever it happens to be than for four years or less. Hopefully, they get in quicker. In students that actually come to British Columbia. We're fact, it will be a number of years that we will have to a net exporter of students. evaluate the impact of their completion rates. J. MacPhail: That's interesting. My statistic is that J. MacPhail: Actually, you can do yearly comple- that age cohort here is going to increase from '03 to '06 tion rates. There are so many courses you need to com- by 4.8 percent. No? Perhaps the minister could break it plete a year, so it will be easy to calculate. out for me, and I can correct people. I'll tell you, the minister has anecdotal evidence that Maybe I could just read from the minister's own is directly contradictory to the anecdotal evidence that demographics on page 5 of her service plan. "Between I get. It's probably due to the roles that we play in life. 2002 and 2006, B.C. will experience a net increase in the Students are telling me, and I am doing a tour of cam- traditional post-secondary age group" of 4.8 percent. puses, that they have to work part-time jobs more in order to pay for the increased costs associated with the Hon. S. Bond: The number the Leader of the Oppo- higher costs of going to school. It will be interesting to sition was quoting was accurate. It's over five years. Let see the yearly completion rates. me give you the growth rate according to B.C. Stats. In Again, I refer back to work done by Robert Clift, 2003-04, the anticipated growth in the 18-to-29-year-old who is the executive director of the Confederation of population will be 1 percent. In 2004-05, 1.3 percent. In University Faculty Associations of B.C. I did use some 2005-06, 1.2 percent. The new student spaces that we of his work yesterday. He is saying that, as we said have built into our budget reflect a 2 percent growth yesterday…. He's referring to the fact that there will be rate, significantly higher than the anticipated growth an increase in the age group of 18-to-29-year-olds. He rate. I should have made that much clearer. The seats got this information from the minister's own service that we have provided reflect a 2 percent growth in the plan, that states: "Between 2002 and 2006, B.C. will ex- number of new student spaces provided each year. perience a net increase in traditional post-secondary age group." That's at the minister's own service plan on J. MacPhail: Perhaps the minister could give me the page 5. absolute numbers. I'm wondering if she could explain In addition to that, we have the phenomenon of the how that increases overall participation. Isn't it just double cohort coming out of Ontario. This is the last holding steady? year for grade 13 in Ontario, and so the students graduating from grade 13 and the new grade 12 end- Hon. S. Bond: No, it isn't a steady state. We're ac- year are now entering their first year of university. It tually increasing the cohort. In the case of '03-04, the seems amazing. I graduated from grade 13 in 1970 in cohort is growing by 1 percent. We're increasing it by 2 Ontario, and they were talking about phasing it out percent. then. I'll give you the number of seats. If it was a one percent increase, we'd require 1,577. We are providing An Hon. Member: Can't believe it. 3,154. In 2004-05, in order to meet the cohort growth

6404 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 rate, it would be 2,082. We're providing 3,217. It's position for how aggressively we are pushing institu- slightly lower. It's actually a 1.3 percent expected tions to meet the access requirements of the province. growth, and we're growing it 2 percent. In 2005-06 we We're working hard. There's a plan in place, and we're would require 1,972 seats, and we're increasing it by going to continue to look at growth rates that exceed 3,281 seats, and that's in the traditional 18-to-29-year- the cohort growth quite significantly. old population cohort. [1940] J. MacPhail: Let me put this, because this is a ru- mour circulating around. It's a rumour circulating J. MacPhail: I'm sure the University Presidents around that post-secondary institutions are being pres- Council will correct me if I'm wrong on this, but they sured to meet these demands, to raise tuition costs, and said — it was this year that they said it; it was Charles that they will, in return, receive more money from the Jago: "At a time when the age cohort for post- ministry — i.e., their base budget will go up propor- secondary education is growing rapidly, it is disap- tionately to how they raise tuition increases. Is that just pointing to see the lack of an overall plan, let alone a vicious rumour? adequate funding to address the already critical short- [1945] age of capacity in the university system." There have also been comments from the Select Hon. S. Bond: We would absolutely never make a Standing Committee on Education report that said: connection like that. The reason we made the public "There is not a single official mandate to guide the policy decision we made about tuition is that we actu- post-secondary system. For example, more than a ally believe the people who govern and run institutions dozen statutes concern the affairs of the post-secondary in this province are in the best position to make deci- system." Is there a plan? This was said. I mean, I know sions about tuition. We also believe that students the University Presidents Council likes to correct me, should invest in their education, and we made a deci- and I'm happy to have that happen. Is this outdated — sion that institutions are in the best place to determine what the University Presidents Council is saying? the rates that are appropriate for their institutions. That is absolutely a rumour, and we would certainly never Hon. S. Bond: I think we've articulated the plan make that connection. incredibly well, and we have more than one plan. We have incredible, exciting plans. We have the plan to J. MacPhail: Let me ask if this data is available double the number of computer science–electrical en- from the minister, then. Does the minister have data on gineering students over five years. Actually, that was funding received from all sources from post-secondary developed and certainly encouraged and supported by institutions? the University Presidents Council. We have a growth rate in general access to the institutions that reflects a 2 Hon. S. Bond: A couple of answers to those ques- percent growth rate when the cohort is growing this tions. First of all, institutions. The public investment in year at 1 percent. institutions is different in terms of the percentage that We're looking at a plan to develop medical school reflects. I can give you an example. We don't have the graduates in this province. We have a dynamic and excit- charts in front of us, but off the top of my head, the ing plan that focuses not just on access but on specific University of British Columbia, for example, gets 39 needs. We recognize the challenges around continuing to percent of their funding from we the people, or the provide access. That's why we're pushing the envelope so government of the province. They have an incredible hard, and that's why we expect institutions to deliver as ability to raise revenue from external sources. A small many seats as possible for students in this province. rural college, on the other hand, or a small college might receive 80 percent of its funding from the gov- J. MacPhail: Yes, well, just for the record, that ernment, so it varies. statement was made after this budget was tabled — the In terms of the percentage of tuition revenue that is budget that we're discussing — so where do we go a percentage of total revenue, I can give you the British from here in terms of reconciling those different opin- Columbia average compared to the rest of Canada. In ions? 2001-02 the tuition revenue as the percentage of total revenue reflected was 20.1 percent. We are still slightly Hon. S. Bond: In fact, we're being very aggressive below the Canadian average, with Alberta and Ontario about addressing the access challenge. We're trying being significantly higher than we were in 2001-02. very hard to…. As a matter of fact, we're trying at 2 to 1. We're trying at a rate of 2 to 1 to increase the seats for J. MacPhail: Yes, but my premise is a different the number of students that we anticipate needing premise that I'm putting forward to the minister. I did them. We certainly are working very hard to increase say it's a rumour, but it would be interesting to see access. what the trends are. It's on an individual institution-by- I think on reflection, the University Presidents institution that the rumour is: "You raise your tuitions; Council would realize that there certainly is a plan in we'll raise the base." place. We are working on that. As a matter of fact, we I would appreciate having the data on funding re- have been challenged today by the Leader of the Op- ceived, across funding. I guess I can go to each institu-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6405 tion and get their financial statements. The total fund- of construction? If you're making that kind of invest- ing received per institution and the increases in tuition ment, it seems like a year of construction. raised '02-03 and '03-04 — not the increases, the total amount of tuition raised per institution…. Can the min- Hon. S. Bond: In the medical program, UBC is al- ister provide the opposition with that data? ready in construction phase. UNBC is starting shortly, and we actually have a letter and a commitment from Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, the institutions have all of those institutions that student intake must take place in their budgets on their websites, but we'll be happy to 2004. We have strict guidelines around that. Both of try to put together that information for the Leader of those pieces are underway. the Opposition. I simply am very disappointed with Doubling the Opportunity is also on schedule but rumours such as that. slightly behind in terms of its evolution, because it is a I can say to you this. Institutions are autonomous five-year program. We are in a series of phases there, institutions in British Columbia. The discussions they but certainly on target in all of those areas. have about the tuition decisions they make are by a [1955] board of governors with other stakeholders present. The Ministry of Advanced Education has nothing to do J. MacPhail: How was it determined that in terms with the decisions and certainly no correlation with the of critical skill shortages, these were the areas that decisions around tuition with any of the institutions in needed to be expanded? this province. [1950] Hon. S. Bond: There was a great deal of analysis done. We certainly looked very carefully at why those J. MacPhail: It will be interesting to see…. I find it particular areas were important. In fact, we were difficult to believe that there's such a hands-off approach graduating 48 percent less than the national average in to it — but whatever. I put forward the rumour, and the terms of engineers and computer science students. In minister says such, and we'll just look at the data. the case of doctors, we were graduating 120, and we My last area of exploration, whoever's doing the needed 300, so we addressed the numbers that were managing of these estimates, will take about 20 minutes. the lowest, actually, in terms of professions in the prov- I'm going to the service plan now. I'm looking at debt ince. We identified and addressed very specific needs, service, the debt service costs and amortization of pre- and I think that's a great-news story for the province as paid capital advances on page 13. Can the minister sug- we try to catch up in those areas. gest…? There's an outline here saying that approxi- mately $99 million of capital will be spent to address J. MacPhail: But was that what the analysis was — new-era commitments. Is that for this fiscal year, '03-04? to meet the national averages? Shouldn't it depend on what workforce is required by your economy? For in- Hon. S. Bond: Yes. Major capital projects that will stance — and I know we're finally getting around to be in design or construction in 2003-04 include these: addressing the apprenticeship shortage, and that does- approximately $99 million to address new-era com- n't overlap here — are the targets for RNs, LPNs and mitments; $72 million for medical training facilities at other health care professionals on track? Were they UBC, UNBC and UVic; and $27 million for facilities to determined just by meeting national averages? double the number of graduates in computer science and electrical engineering. So our Doubling the Oppor- Hon. S. Bond: No, it was a combination of things, tunity initiative capital expenses this year are $27 mil- obviously, in looking at labour and market needs in lion and $72 million for the medical facilities. British Columbia. In fact, these were both areas of criti- cal shortages. We're also dealing with health care pro- J. MacPhail: How much has already been commit- fessionals, as you know, in terms of nurses and li- ted to these initiatives in previous budgets? censed practical nurses. In fact, there's a lot of need. We needed to start somewhere. Hon. S. Bond: The total amount set aside for Dou- We picked the most critical needs that we assessed bling the Opportunity is $95 million, so that would for the province. We're starting and will continue to include the $27 million that's noted here. And $135 assess the labour market needs in the province. The million for the medical school components. That in- Leader of the Opposition is absolutely correct. As we cludes the $72 million. So the totals are $95 million for look at the new model for apprenticeship, one of the Doubling the Opportunity and $135 million for the things we're looking at is what the critical areas of need medical program. are and how we produce the workers required to do that. That's why we announced the new legislation J. MacPhail: Is this infrastructure on target? today.

Hon. S. Bond: I'm very pleased to say that it is. J. MacPhail: I know the member for Prince George– Omineca asked this — well, maybe not directly this J. MacPhail: Perhaps the minister could give me question. But if so, I apologize for repeating it. The more detail about how it's on target. Like, is this a year minister has a target, and I just want to talk about a

6406 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 couple of enrolment targets. The target of 134 on-line interest relief, but are simply unable to repay their debt spaces for '02-03: was that met? That is also the same due to low income. So we do have a debt reduction number for '03-04. Will that be met? program. The projection for '02-03 was $200,000. The budget for that in '03-04 is $1 million. We look at op- Hon. S. Bond: The targets have been met, and in tions for helping students who simply are unable to fact, we've adjusted them. In the service plan in '03-04 pay us back because of their low income. we initially had 130 spaces for on-line learning. We've I also want to highlight the loan forgiveness pro- actually increased that to 230, and we anticipate 230 in gram for disabled students, should they be unable to '04-05 and 230 in '05-06. Currently, we have about 700 repay their loans. Our budget estimates amount is on-line courses in the province, so we're very confident $800,000. that those targets are easily manageable. [2000] L. Mayencourt: Thank you, minister. That's very, very useful. I'm particularly glad we're doing that for J. MacPhail: And for RNs? That's the other one I the medical students. I think that is a great way of get- asked about. ting medical students into the heartlands of British Columbia and encouraging them to stay and practice in Hon. S. Bond: As I think I mentioned to the mem- British Columbia. That's great. ber for Prince George–Omineca, we obviously don't The next questions I have revolve around the De- have final data until the end of June. It will be released gree Authorization Act. What it comes down to is…. I then. But I'm confident those targets will be met. think the Leader of the Opposition referenced the Sea If the Leader of the Opposition will permit me, I'll to Sky University, which is going to be a private uni- just include…. We've got care aides, licensed practical versity not receiving public funds but nonetheless be- nurses and registered nurses in one category. I'll give ing able to grant degrees in British Columbia. Where you what that is. In 2002 the FTE target there was 981. are we in terms of the Degree Authorization Act? I In '03-04, an additional 693. In '04-05, 431. In '05-06, 578 know that in Alberta and Ontario, for instance, both of seats. That's the combined care aides, LPNs and regis- those provinces went through a process of developing tered nurses, for a total of 2,683 spaces over those criteria for acceptance or authorization to grant those years. We are on target, and certainly, at the end of degrees. How are we approaching that? How is our June we'll be able to confirm that. approach in comparison to Alberta and Ontario?

J. MacPhail: That concludes my questions. There Hon. S. Bond: We did, obviously, examine the sys- may be some follow-up questions that we can do by tems in particular in Alberta and Ontario, and our goal correspondence with the information the minister has was to create a degree authorization process that was given. Thank you to the minister and her staff. less costly and more streamlined. We have been able to do that. We are currently finalizing the regulations and L. Mayencourt: Yesterday, when we were talking also the board appointments — the group of people about loan forgiveness, the minister had mentioned that will deal with the approval of degrees in British that a number of opportunities for loan forgiveness Columbia. I'm pleased to tell you that we hope to be were available for students studying in the medical able to put that in place by late spring or early summer. profession. I understand that there's also a group get- ting loan forgiveness because of financial hardship. L. Mayencourt: That's good news, because I under- Can you give some sort of indication of how that stand that there are a number of private universities breaks down, please? looking at our jurisdiction and saying: "Hey, this [2005] would be a good thing for us in terms of business." Also, it provides the minister with another alternative Hon. S. Bond: One of the reasons it's taking us a bit for providing post-secondary education for a lot of of time here is that there is a variety of ways we help students that would like to get into schools. students with their loans, and that's really good news. When we look at public and private institutions, It does make for a complicated answer. In terms of loan there is going to be a need for some form of consis- forgiveness for nurses, physicians, midwives and tency. I wonder if the minister has looked at the way pharmacists, we have a budget of $1.32 million. As you the programs are articulated and how a student might know, that is done on a 33 percent…. If you spend transfer from one sector to another. Are those issues three years in an underserved community, your loan being considered as well? will be forgiven 33 percent each year. We've been able [2010] to actually reduce that from five years initially, so it's 33 percent per year. Our budget is $1.32 million dollars Hon. S. Bond: That's a great question. One of the in '03-04. reasons we want a degree quality assessment process We then have a program that is called debt reduc- in the province is to ensure that very kind of compati- tion. The debt reduction program helps former stu- bility between the programs. In fact, B.C. does. Despite dents who have exhausted all other options for repay- our challenges with articulation, B.C. actually leads the ment, including loan remission, revision of terms and country in articulation between institutions. In British

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6407

Columbia now we have three private institutions that Hon. S. Bond: Yes. We do intend for that to be pub- are included in the B.C. Transfer Guide. lic and transparent. Well, there's some information in It's absolutely the practice of the province. I would the proposal, obviously, that we may not be able to like to see that expanded, and in fact, we've included make public, but there will be a website. We're actually the increase in articulation agreements in our account- going to use an on-line process, so we do intend to ability framework to institutions to say that we expect make British Columbians aware of the kinds of oppor- to see these increased. But we already include three tunities that are possible within the province. private institutions in our Transfer Guide, and we [2015] would hope to see that expanded significantly. L. Mayencourt: I would assume that the board is L. Mayencourt: Perhaps we could go now to the going to be looking at some of the administrative ca- degree quality assessment board. Obviously, that's pacity and financial stability of the institutions. That going to be an integrated system. When is that board would be the kind of information that would allow going to be appointed? Will that board replace the de- British Columbians to be informed about these things. gree program review committee? What other factors might be considered in terms of what that board would want to be reporting to the Hon. S. Bond: Yes. It absolutely will replace the public? other process. That's how we decided to streamline it: to bring it under one umbrella. We had a lot of discus- Hon. S. Bond: The board will be providing me with sion about how to do that. We've gone back and forth, advice in three areas in particular, and you've sort of but we have a streamlined process that will then take reflected one of them, generally. The three areas are the place of the degree-approval process. educational capacity — obviously, educational re- The board itself will be appointed shortly. It will sources and capacity; it doesn't necessarily mean that include members from public and private institutions, they need a library, but they need to have those kinds and it will also include some external experts. We're of resources for students, so we'll examine them; or- hoping to include people from the high-tech sector, ganizational capacity, which would include such perhaps, or from small business or from business, be- things as finances and those things; and the third thing cause as we move to applied degrees, we obviously would be advice around whether or not the institution need to have the expertise there to look at the applied should have the right to use the word "university." side of the degree program as well — so a streamlined There is a set of criteria around that. Basically, the process with a board that has a very broad representa- board will look at three areas for each application. tion. We hope to appoint that, probably, very shortly — late spring or, at the very latest, early summer. L. Mayencourt: I want to ask a question about de- gree assessment. I would assume that the board is go- L. Mayencourt: I wonder if you could tell me about ing to need to assess the academic qualifications and that board. Is it going to have its own staff? Where the viability of the proposed programs that the univer- would they be located? The other question I had was sity is offering. Would that be correct? Is that part of on the issue of transparency and openness. That's been what they're doing? I would imagine that matters such a very important theme for this minister. I'm just won- as curriculum and program content are going to be dering, in the interests of openness and transparency: important. What other criteria might be considered? are the board's minutes going to be available to ordi- nary British Columbians? Will we be able to see what Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, the member has high- kind of decisions they're making in an open way? lighted two of the most important, but two others that we can identify are transferability — whether or not Hon. S. Bond: My ministry will be providing sup- they have the ability to transfer those courses — and port to the board. It will come from the private institu- also faculty expertise, another very important part of tions branch of my ministry. We will be providing what we're going to do. I think what's important to support to the board. In terms of the accessibility of point out is that we will be making public the criteria minutes, that's an issue we will present to the board. against which those proposals would be judged. Be It's not something we've made a determination about, very clear: here is the set of criteria that the proposals but we will certainly present that to the board as one of will be judged against. Those will be public. You've the discussion items for their consideration. articulated two of the criteria, and we've given you two others. L. Mayencourt: So if a private university applies and wants to come to British Columbia, how are we L. Mayencourt: The next area I want to bring to the going to be informed? Is the public going to be in- minister's attention is that I have a lot of English- formed of the fact that this particular university has language schools in my riding, and there's been a lot of applied? Is there going to be a way for people to know, discussion around PPSEC and whether or not ELS as that application goes forward, what qualifications schools belong in some government-mandated regula- that particular university has, their record in other ju- tory body. Many of the schools have spoken to me and risdictions, those sorts of things? written to me — I've shared some of those letters with

6408 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 you — advocating that they'd like to be in a self- Aiden Mackaleer, who have almost made it their life's regulating body. Do you have any updates on the status work to make sure students in the Sardis and Chilli- of that particular decision? Have you made a decision on wack Secondary schools have this opportunity avail- the English-language schools? If you haven't made a able to them. decision, are you leaning in a particular way? I would ask the minister if she could give us a bit of a road map for the future in terms of that program, Hon. S. Bond: That is a discussion of future policy. which has, obviously, been so beneficial to students in I hope to be able to actually clarify those questions with the Fraser Valley. the introduction of legislation very shortly. [2025]

L. Mayencourt: The other questions I have relates Hon. S. Bond: I'm glad I get the chance to talk to ITAC. As the Leader of the Opposition suggested in about secondary school apprenticeship, because I think her questions, it's probably more appropriate to do that it is an excellent program. I have seen the benefits. I with the legislation you brought in this morning. can't remember what day it was, but I know that last That concludes my questions. Thank you very week, I was in another school district that had just much, minister. demonstrated the importance of this program as an [2020] option for student learners in this province. I think your particular secondary school apprenticeship pro- J. Les: I want to take just a very few minutes this gram under the leadership of Gary Wall is also an ex- evening to talk about post-secondary education. traordinary example in this province. First of all, I want to thank the minister and her I'm pleased to say that one of the working groups staff on the record for the interest they've shown in that we set apart when we did the industry training post-secondary education issues in the Fraser Valley. advisory committee was basically around student sec- The Fraser Valley, as we all know, is a very fast- ondary school apprenticeship and where it is going to growing area of the province, and there's tremendous go in the future. I'm expecting a series of recommenda- upward pressure in terms of spaces for students. We tions to come back to me within the next couple of also have an area in the Fraser Valley where, histori- weeks, and I'm anticipating a suggestion that the pro- cally, post-secondary education participation rates gram be expanded. have been at provincial lows. That is being addressed, We think, actually, that it's a template for how we and I think that's one of the keys to diversifying the should be doing training in British Columbia. I'm al- economy in the Fraser Valley. ways amazed by the stories I hear from young men and It has been at least twice or probably three times that women who are students, who literally would not be in the minister has been in my riding in the last year or so, school, and certainly not being trained, without the and for that we are very grateful. The plans we are cur- secondary school apprenticeship program. rently working on with respect to an alternative location I want to thank the member for his advocacy and for the University College of the Fraser Valley are very support of students and that particular program and exciting, though maybe not moving along quite as quickly for bringing it to my attention every single opportunity as I would've hoped. But I hasten to assure everyone here he gets. I also want to reassure you that we have main- that it certainly is not the fault of this minister or her tained the funding for the secondary school appren- ministry, and I can assure the minister I will be working ticeship scholarships, and as you know, the awards with her on that in the months to come. they get are $1,000. I had the privilege of presenting, In an area that is perhaps not as clearly within the with the member from Mission the other day, 23 or 24 purview of the Ministry of Advanced Education — that of them, I think it was, to students. is, secondary school apprenticeship training — the I should assure you that as the number of students minister has, to her credit, shown great interest in the in the secondary school apprenticeship program program. She came to Chilliwack last year to the grows, so will the budget for those particular awards. graduation exercises where about 150 students gradu- They reflect the number of students, and we intend to ated from the apprenticeship program. I know the min- see that continue to grow. We believe it's an important ister has taken a great interest in this program, and I part of the present, and we hope it can be bigger and wondered whether she could advise the House as to even better in the future. the long-term plans for this program and where it fits into the education scenario for students. J. Les: I really don't have any more questions to ask. This is a very important program. At the risk of I just want to say this: I find it extremely heartening sounding a little trite, we all know that 80 percent of that this very important program, as I see it, is being students do not go to university. They access other solidly supported by this ministry. It's so encouraging forms of post-secondary training, and a lot of kids de- to see people like Gary Wall, for example, putting basi- rive a lot of benefit from getting some direction at the cally their heart and soul into this program and getting secondary school level. We've seen tremendous benefit results that are commensurate, I think, with the effort in the Chilliwack area with the availability of this pro- they've put into it. gram. I would hasten to point out, as well, that we are The encouragement that the minister has given this very fortunate to have people like Gary Wall and evening with respect to the expansion, possibly, of this

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6409 program and to the maintenance of the funding will be The review will look across the sector and simply very good news to the people who are exporting this try to look at how institutions relate to one another, program at the community level. I want to thank the how we better connect and what important roles col- minister for her very important work in this area, and leges, for example, play. We think it will simply en- if ever I can do anything to help push it along further, dorse the role Camosun is already playing. don't hesitate to call on me. S. Brice: I think that's certainly very encouraging Hon. S. Bond: I just want to comment on that. and comforting. I know you work well with the man- Many members in caucus have been helpful in terms of agement there. supporting and advocating on behalf of the secondary There's also going to be a priority, I see in your ser- school apprenticeship program and also for trades and vice plan, to ensure that education costs are shared skills training in the province. That is so important. I'm equitably. I wondered when I saw that: did it mean very proud of a government and a caucus that place cost to the students? If it did, would it mean that a stu- such high priority on alternate training for students. dent that was, say, going in for early childhood educa- I would certainly be remiss if I didn't, on the record, tion, where ultimately they're so poorly paid at the give credit where credit is due. I know that with me end, would be paying less for their courses than some- tonight — and he hasn't been introduced on the record body taking another course, such as an RN? yet — is Stuart Clark, the director of our industry train- ing branch. In fact, Stuart was responsible for the crea- Hon. S. Bond: In terms of the approach we took in shar- tion of the secondary school apprenticeship program a ing cost equitably, I think we took it at a much higher level number of years ago. than that. What we looked at was the principle of who I was really glad that Stuart was with me the other should pay and who should invest in a person's education day when we presented scholarship cheques to a num- — and that it should be equitable. The people we looked at, ber of students. It must have been a very rewarding in fact, were students and, in many cases, families, society. opportunity to see the fruits of your labour and to be Obviously, government has a major role to play. very proud of that. I know Stuart has no intention of As we looked at that in terms of a public policy seeing that program get smaller. In fact, he was saying discussion — who should pay, how much they should he had hoped it would be bigger by now, so I can as- pay and who should determine what that is — as we sure you that emphasis will remain in our ministry. I did that as a ministry, what ended up as a result of it wanted to recognize Stuart for a job very well done. was, obviously, the deregulation of tuition. We believe [2030] institutions are in the best place to determine what the appropriate rate of tuition should be. It also allows S. Brice: I just want to take a moment as these esti- institutions to reflect the market and adjust tuition ac- mates wind down to put a couple of questions on the cording to the market and the appropriate costs. We record about the college in my riding, Camosun Col- took a much higher level look at who should pay, how lege. Camosun College has many decades now, actu- much they should pay and who should make the deci- ally, of exemplary leadership, board and staff. sions about the degree of investment. As I read through the service plan, I do have a couple of questions. I'd like some reaction, if I could, from the S. Brice: Just as a follow-up to that, it has distressed minister. I notice that in your service plan, there's a prior- me over time to have young people come to me after ity to encourage system integration, and it talks about they finish their course having a $20,000 or $25,000 stu- legislation in '03-04 that's going to talk about reviewing dent loan. I know they've chosen a career path that may systems mandates and roles. I just wondered what the be wonderful and good for humanity but probably implication for Camosun College would be for that. doesn't have a big dollar attached to it, and they're left with a big, big bill to pay out over a long period of time. Hon. S. Bond: The member is certainly correct I notice you're going to maximize graduate pro- about the excellent opportunities available to students grams for identified skills shortages. I guess I would be through Camosun. I've always been impressed by their interested in your understanding now of nursing stu- entrepreneurial thinking. They're looking outside the dents particularly. I'm most familiar with that because box as to how to address needs of students in the prov- of a number of people in my own family who went ince. through the nursing program at Camosun and then The review across the sector in terms of mandates through the University of Victoria. They heard about and roles is simply to look at the role each type of insti- skill shortages and then found out…. They came out tution plays: colleges, institutes, university colleges and into the workforce and couldn't get themselves any universities. In all likelihood it will simply endorse the kind of full-time employment. Has that situation role Camosun plays as a college within the region it changed? What is the situation currently for graduates serves, but I hope it would also allow us and Camosun in the nursing program? to look at the opportunity to grant applied degrees. It is [2035] a new opportunity for colleges in the province and, really, an expansion of mandate, one that we think will Hon. S. Bond: I think the answer to the question, if provide new and exciting opportunities for students. I heard it correctly…. We seem to have two different

6410 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 versions here. I think my deputy's ears are plugged, into the university and seeking the Camosun or other but that may or may not be the case. college route as an opportunity?

G. Armstrong: We'll see. Hon. S. Bond: That's a great question. In fact, I couldn't agree with you more. In the beginning, people Hon. S. Bond: Yes, we will see, won't we? The an- choosing a college route is very important, and British swer to the question will determine whether or not his Columbia has an outstanding college system. In fact, if ears were plugged or I'm just numb at this point. you look at participation rates in Canada, the rate of There is still a problem in getting full-time em- participation in colleges in British Columbia is second ployment, but that continues to be an issue of contract, only to the province of Quebec. We have extraordinary typically, between the employer and employees. There participation in colleges. is an availability of part-time work much more fre- Because of the great articulation we have, agree- quently. Having said that, if the question is also about ments in British Columbia…. Again, we are a leader in whether there are jobs available in Victoria or in the articulation. While we have challenges, when I meet rest of the province, we still have a challenge filling with my provincial and territorial colleagues, ours do positions in underserved communities in the province. not begin to compare to some of the challenges they As we train people, we're hoping that one of the have in other provinces. There is room for improve- things we can do is incent them to go to parts of the ment, but we are a leader. province that actually can be very wonderful to live in. [2040] I happen to live in one of those areas. One of the things The University of Victoria, for example, accepts we've done is create the forgivable loan program that hundreds of Camosun students each year, probably, as you're very familiar with, to try to encourage people they transfer in. I guess the bottom line is that there who are looking for full-time work and looking for jobs still is the need to compete for those seats — obviously, to move to those communities where we really need the best advice we give students is to do well, and en- their help. sure that your grades are high — but our articulation is excellent, particularly between Camosun and the Uni- S. Brice: I think you both heard different parts of versity of Victoria. We think we have a superb college the question. A very complete answer. Thank you. system in this province, which offers literally thou- My final question, I guess, relates to the interrela- sands of students a chance to start a post-secondary tionship between the college and the university. We education in the province. certainly hear about these gargantuan grad numbers that students purportedly need now to even get into Vote 9 approved. university. I believe there is a mark inflation underway. That aside, when you hear about these huge num- Hon. S. Bond: I move the committee rise, report bers…. Camosun has always filled a good role for resolution and ask leave to sit again. those who were looking to get into an academic trans- fer program. Could you give me some idea of someone Motion approved. graduating in, say, this part of the province — or any part of the province — and wanting ultimately to get The committee rose at 8:41 p.m.