Fift h Session, 39th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Wednesday, March 6, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 43, Number 7

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

Fifth Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Energy, Mines and Natural Gas and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education, Innovation and Technology and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and Minister of State for Seniors ...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of Citizens' Services and Open Government ...... Hon. Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education ...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Minister of State for Small Business ...... Hon. Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development ...... Hon. Dr. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Deputy Speaker ...... Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Dawn Black Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, George (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission ...... Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford South ...... Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff , Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... -Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Black, Dawn (NDP) ...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Harry Bloy Bloy, Harry (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Brar, Jagrup (NDP) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Cariboo North ...... Bob Simpson Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack ...... Cantelon, Ron (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Chilliwack-Hope ...... Gwen O'Mahony Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... –West End Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Chong, Hon. Ida (BC Liberal) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds –Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Th orne Coell, Murray (BC Liberal) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta North ...... Guy Gentner Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Delta South ...... Vicki Huntington Coons, Gary (NDP) ...... North Coast Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Juan de Fuca ...... Dix, Adrian (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway –North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington –Lake Country ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Falcon, Kevin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Gentner, Guy (NDP) ...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Colin (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Hawes, Randy (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Nechako Lakes ...... Hayer, Dave S. (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Nelson-Creston ...... Heed, Kash (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview New Westminster ...... Dawn Black Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock North Coast...... Gary Coons Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca North Island ...... Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Howard, Rob (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Hon. Ida Chong James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Parksville-Qualicum ...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River North ...... Krog, Leonard (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South ...... Krueger, Kevin (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Coquitlam ...... Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Joe Trasolini Lali, Harry (NDP) ...... Fraser-Nicola Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Hon. Pat Bell Lekstrom, Blair (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Les, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Richmond Centre ...... Rob Howard Letnick, Hon. Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond East ...... Linda Reid MacDiarmid, Hon. Dr. Margaret (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Richmond-Steveston ...... Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich North and the Islands ...... McIntyre, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... McNeil, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Shuswap ...... George Abbott McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Skeena ...... Robin Austin Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Stikine ...... O'Mahony, Gwen (NDP) ...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Surrey-Newton ...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Panorama ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Surrey-Tynehead ...... Dave S. Hayer Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Whalley...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Sather, Michael (NDP) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver–False Creek ...... Mary McNeil Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Simpson, Bob (Ind.) ...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Hastings ...... Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kensington ...... Slater, John (Ind.) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Stewart, Hon. Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver-Langara ...... Hon. Dr. Moira Stilwell Stilwell, Hon. Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Sultan, Hon. Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. Christy Clark Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Th orne, Diane (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vancouver–West End ...... Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Trasolini, Joe (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... van Dongen, John (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Hon. Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Joan McIntyre Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna ...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: BC Liberal 45; New Democratic 36; Independent 4

CONTENTS

Wednesday, March 6, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members ...... 13331

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 13333 Volunteer fi refi ghters in Cariboo area D. Barnett Bridges for Women Society C. James Aging and society G. Hogg Centennial of Port Coquitlam M. Farnworth Work and philanthropy of business leaders Joe Segal and Peter Legge H. Bloy Seabird College G. O'Mahony

Oral Questions ...... 13335 Government response to allegations regarding wood innovation centre bidding process N. Macdonald Hon. P. Bell D. Donaldson M. Karagianis Correspondence from Northern Development Initiative Trust to Jobs Minister J. Horgan Hon. P. Bell Jobs Minister's interaction with Northern Development Initiative Trust J. Horgan Hon. P. Bell Independent investigation into wood innovation centre bidding process J. Horgan Hon. P. Bell L. Krog Government response to closing of Kitsilano Coast Guard station K. Corrigan Hon. S. Bond M. Farnworth

Petitions ...... 13339 K. Conroy

Tabling Documents ...... 13340 Crown Proceeding Act, report, fi scal year ended March 31, 2012 Public Guardian and Trustee of B.C., Annual Report 2011-2012 B.C. Utilities Commission, 2011-2012 Annual Report Environmental Appeal Board, annual report, fi scal year ended March 31, 2012 Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 13340 Bill 13 — Supply Act (No. 1), 2013 Hon. M. de Jong B. Ralston B. Simpson

Committee of the Whole House ...... 13342 Bill 5 — Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2013 (continued) D. Donaldson Hon. T. Lake B. Simpson C. Trevena S. Chandra Herbert M. Sather

Report and Th ird Reading of Bills ...... 13359 Bill 5 — Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2013

Committee of the Whole House ...... 13359 Bill 6 — Local Government Statutes Amendment Act, 2013 H. Lali Hon. B. Bennett S. Chandra Herbert

Report and Th ird Reading of Bills ...... 13366 Bill 6 — Local Government Statutes Amendment Act, 2013

Committee of the Whole House ...... 13366 Bill 3 — Destination BC Corp. Act Hon. P. Bell S. Chandra Herbert B. Simpson 13331

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 6, 2013 D. Donaldson: I would like to have the House to make welcome Scott Ellis and Mark Werner from the Guide Th e House met at 1:35 p.m. Outfi tters Association of B.C., who are joining us in the precinct and perhaps in the gallery today with other [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] members of the Guide Outfi tters Association of B.C. We had a wonderful breakfast meeting with them this mor- Routine Business ning. Th ey're valuable small business people to rural communities and stewards of the land. I'd like to ask the Prayers. House to please make them welcome.

Introductions by Members G. Abbott: I had the pleasure today to join at lunch with a group of B.C. Young Liberals. Th ese are young Hon. R. Coleman: I'm proud to announce today, fi rst people who are very interested in politics and, in some of all, that the member for Chilliwack has not had an- cases, in political science. Th ey are here to learn of that other grandchild. great, dignifi ed and refi ned exchange of perspectives that However, in the press gallery Jonathan Fowlie and his we call question period. wife, Jaime Matten, had a nine-pound boy on Monday Among them are Nicole Paul, Allie Valiente, Eric named Lucas Cohen Matten-Fowlie. I'd like the House Servais, Sebastian Zein, Clark Assenheimer, Simrath to make Lucas welcome. Grewal, Conner McConkey, Andrew Reeve, Carly Aasen, Brody McDonald, Scott Jaroszuk, Zoe Ferry, Blake J. Horgan: Th e opposition would like to join with the Hodson and JJ MacLean. I'd ask the House to make them government. I guess we've noticed over the past number all welcome. of days that the hasn't been as interesting, and that's because Jonathan has been busy with his fath- K. Conroy: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to intro- ering responsibilities. Jaime Matten, the proud mother, duce a former constituent. Actually, to be truthful, she was, of course, a signifi cant part of the offi cial opposition was a former constituent of my husband, but she's since and now is a pillar in the mayor's offi ce here in Victoria. moved to the Cowichan Valley. She's here with her hus- band — Sandra and Rene Goth. Sandra works for the B.C. Certainly, on behalf of the opposition, we wish Jaime Association of Community Response Networks, and it and Jonathan and Lucas Cohen Matten-Fowlie the best was great to see her today. Could the House please join of luck in this year and every year that follows. me in making her welcome. [1340] R. Howard: Joining us in the House today is a very dis- tinguished Canadian, Mr. Ferry de Kerckhove. Ferry is Hon. M. Polak: We are visited today by a grade 11 civ- the former Ambassador of Canada to Indonesia, Egypt, ics class from the King's School in Langley, led by their and former high commissioner to Pakistan. He's also teacher, Laurena Hensel. I want to introduce the students. Canada's former chief air negotiator. Would the House I'm going to apologize ahead of time, because I'm sure please make him welcome. I'm going to mess up some names: Saria Ashfi eld, Tia Beard, Chloe Heuchert, Dahae Kim, Nahae Kim, Naeun C. James: I know our time is short, so I will not Kim, Jesse Land, Dean Li, Adrene Linton, Trisha Reid introduce the 20 women who are here with Bridges for and Isaiah Wooding. Would this House please make Women Society — staff , board members and volunteers. them welcome. But I would like to introduce some of the graduates from the program, if I may: Donna Bilsborough; Eileen Henry, N. Macdonald: Just to add to the introductions from who is Coast Salish; Rose Henry, Sliammon Nation; the beetle action coalition by the member for Cariboo- Colleen Kerr; Hilary Marks; Nancy Murphy; Deanna Chilcotin, we also have with us Rhona Martin, Grace Pulido; Tara Timmers; and Jodi Williams. Would the McGregor, Chief Judy Wilson, Gerry Thiessen, Don House please make all of our guests very welcome. Bassermann and Sharon Tower as well as the guests that were already introduced. Th e House could join us in wel- D. Barnett: I would like the House to help me wel- coming all the members of the beetle action coalitions come two special guests from the pine beetle coalitions, that are here. who were here this morning with a group meeting with members of cabinet. With us are Kerry Cook, mayor of Hon. I. Chong: Today I'm delighted to see in the gal- Williams Lake and chair of the Cariboo-Chilcotin Beetle lery my constituency assistants Matt Dolmage and Julia Action Coalition; and Dave Majcher, the manager. Please Keifer. Th ey are here to watch question period. welcome them to the House. I want to just say that Matt, who works in my offi ce, 13332 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

has been with me for almost fi ve years. Not only is he abuse were Joe Scaletta, a board member with the B.C. an exceptional constituency assistant; he excels in car- Association of Community Response Networks; Martha pentry. I've seen him build his own guitar. He is a gift ed Jane Lewis, executive director of the B.C. Centre for musician. One day I know he's going to be an outstand- Elder Advocacy; and Susan Brice, representative for the ing lawyer. Victoria Silver Th reads and a district councillor for the Julia, who I have only recently been acquainted with, Saanich municipality. Would the House please make is new to my offi ce and has joined us. She is as delight- them all welcome. ful as she is intelligent. I would ask the House to please make them both very welcome. M. Elmore: I'd like to welcome students and teachers from Sir Charles Tupper Secondary School in Vancouver- R. Fleming: I see in the gallery a couple of constitu- Kensington. Th ey're here — a number of social studies ents of mine who are with the Bridges for Women group classes. Th ey're accompanied by their vice-principal, Jim here today, and I wanted to recognize them. One of them Rutley; social studies teachers Autumn Lum and Bonnie is Colleen Kasting, who is just a tremendous resource Burnell; and also volunteers Dan Kramer, Leyla O'Shea, for the housing community in my constituency, helping Christina O'Neil, Katherine Olson; and a student teach- both tenants and landlords and the housing providers er, Adam Melnyk. I would ask everyone to please make in the capital region do a better job. Colleen, it's great to them welcome. have you here. [1345] I want to recognize Hilary Marks as well, who brings a tremendous passion to social work and will have many Hon. P. Bell: A couple of misses in the gallery still. accomplishments to come as a social worker here in the From the Guide Outfi tters Association, I should say capital region. Mark Werner is a constituent of mine in Prince George. It's an honour. I have three constituents in the precincts Hon. S. Thomson: I'd also like to join the mem- today. In addition, Michael Schneider has not yet been ber for Stikine in welcoming the representatives from introduced. Michael is from Prince George, a constitu- the Guide Outfitters Association here today. Mark ent and a member of the Guide Outfi tters Association Werner and Scott Ellis have been introduced, but of B.C. also joining them are David Beranek, director from Also joining us earlier on today from the BACs, but Cranbrook; Michael Young, a director from Smithers; missed in the earlier introductions, is Her Worship Marc Hubbard, a regional president from Penticton, Mayor Stephanie Killam from the district of Mackenzie. and his wife, Marcella Hubbard; Joyce Sword from Would the House please make all of those folks very wel- Cranbrook; and Jeana Schuurman, their director of come. policy and communications assistant with the Guide Outfi tters. As was mentioned, they do a great job in representing J. Horgan: Also joining us in the gallery today is the families and businesses all across British Columbia. But former chair of the school district 63 board of education probably the most important person that's along with — MaryLynne Rimer. She's a good friend of mine, and I them today is Reid Werner, who is the son of Mark know she's going to enjoy question period today. Werner. He's a grade 5 student at Beaverly Elementary School in Prince George, studying B.C. politics in class R. Lee: In the gallery today we have a delegation of six right now, so he's here to watch question period — a fu- leaders from China's Hubei province, the federation of ture guide-outfi tter in British Columbia. overseas Chinese, led by Lepei Li Pung and Lau Lin Yun. Th ey are accompanied by David Choi, national chair of H. Lali: We have three people visiting us here in the the National Congress of Chinese Canadians. Mr. Li is a galleries today. One is Valerie Adrian, who is a director former Hubei province CPPCC member and director of on the B.C. School Trustees Association and from Gold its external aff airs. Trail school district number 74; Sherri Moore-Arbour, Hubei is a province of national strategic importance in who is a communications director for the B.C. School central China with a population of 61 million. Its GDP is Trustees Association; and Gordon Swan, from my home- increasing from $250 billion in 2011 to a target of $400 town of Merritt, who is a director of the B.C. School billion in 2015. Hubei is experiencing over 10 percent Trustees Association, from the Nicola-Similkameen annual economic growth. Like B.C., it's strategic in the school district. Would the House please make all of my intermodal transportation hub and an ever-rising region- guests welcome. al economic force. Hubei also marked the start of Dr. Sun Yat-sen's national revolution. R. Cantelon: Joining us in the precinct today for an Would the House please join me in giving the delegates important announcement on the prevention of elder a warm welcome over there. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13333

Statements I'd like to off er my heartfelt congratulations to Bridges (Standing Order 25B) for Women Society on its 25th anniversary. As we mark International Women's Day this Friday, it's a particularly VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS fi tting time to acknowledge the exceptional contributions IN CARIBOO AREA of the inspiring women at the society. I'm so grateful for their years of service and dedication to our community D. Barnett: Today I am paying tribute to the volunteer and for making such a diff erence in the lives of so many fi refi ghters in my riding. Th ere are 18 fi re departments in women and so many families. On behalf of all of us, I of- the Cariboo-Chilcotin, two of which have full-time paid fer them congratulations on their 25th anniversary. chiefs. Most of the others are volunteers. Th ese men and women are professionals in other fi elds, who work steady. AGING AND SOCIETY Most have families and give their time helping others, whether a fi re, a rescue, a community parade or raising G. Hogg: Statisticians now tell us that our life expect- funds to buy equipment for their departments. ancy is rising by about fi ve hours per day or nearly three Emergency events do not distinguish between career months each year — not for all of us. Th is is a startling or volunteer responders, and training for both is very statistic and one that is set to transform everything from similar. Firefi ghting can be a very dangerous occupation, employment to welfare and the norms of family life. Our whether as a volunteer or a professional. Firefi ghters take traditional assumptions about aging and getting older are a major risk every time they enter a burning building or fundamentally fl awed. Moving beyond chronology as a other dangerous situations where they are needed. way of understanding age will be a key shift as we move to Sometimes their willingness to put themselves on an older society, and we need to innovate to enable us to the line in order to help others can even cost them their adapt to the aging population, including re-creating our lives. It takes a very special person to do this. In my rid- social institutions and creating new ways for us to care ing, since 1999, there have been three fallen fi refi ghters for each other, to help each other, to harness the oppor- in the line of duty. To all the volunteer fi refi ghters and tunities of an aging society and enable us all to age better. their families: thank you. We are all aging, but not in the same way. Our socio- economic status is a stronger determinant of how we BRIDGES FOR WOMEN SOCIETY age than our chronological age, and understanding the diversity and dynamics of aging is vital to the innova- C. James: Th e fi ve mothers who founded Bridges for tion needed to successfully transition to an older society. Women Society 25 years ago were determined to create Th ere is a gap between our current approaches to aging an environment where women felt safe enough to take and what people say they want. Research in what older on the challenges of changing their lives, realizing their people want and the factors contributing to their lives dreams and claiming their rightful places in society. Th eir suggest a vision that includes having a purpose, having foresight and courage built the foundation into a place a sense of well-being and feeling at home and connected of transformation, healing and love. Th e society's em- with others — not a surprise, and not at variance with ployment training and support programs help women what most people want throughout their whole life. impacted by violence, abuse, trauma and neglect to re- Our life expectancy is rising by fi ve hours today. May claim their lives. we use some of those to focus on the factors and needs Each year Bridges for Women provides services to of our future — a future of an aging society that requires more than 500 women through classroom programs, new perspectives, new thinking and new approaches. counselling and coaching sessions and its innovative on-line programs for women. Today the legacy of their CENTENNIAL OF PORT COQUITLAM work runs deep through our community, in the lives of women and families who have been profoundly touched M. Farnworth: It's with great pride that I rise in the and changed. House today to speak about an event of great signifi - [1350] cance to me in the community where I live and grew Th ese amazing women have rediscovered their self- up. Th at is, tomorrow will be the centennial of the city worth and value, and they are living healthier, safer and of Port Coquitlam in British Columbia. Th e land where more fulfi lling days. All are leaders themselves now, pay- Port Coquitlam now sits was the traditional territory and ing forward with gratitude all that was given to them. In still is the traditional territory of the Kwikwetlem Nation, the words of one Bridges graduate: "I learned I did de- which has been there since time immemorial. In the serve an education, a good job and mutually respectful mid-1800s, with the coming of settlements on the coast relationships." Another said: "Th e spectrum of experi- of British Columbia, it was explored by Colonel Moody ences I have learned began with trauma and ended with and was, for a brief time, considered to be almost a good self-defi nition of being an educated woman." location for the fi rst capital of British Columbia. Oh, what 13334 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

might have been. ence led him to volunteer even more time with the But with the coming of the CPR and the creation of Heart and Stroke Foundation, encouraging men to the spur line to New Westminster, a community called take control of their health and pay attention to the Westminster Junction grew up, and industrial activity warning signs. took place. In 1913 the community separated at that Th e same with Joe. He suff ered a stroke in 2009. In 2010 time from the district of Coquitlam, with the reeve of he and his wife, Rosalie, donated $12 million to Vancouver Coquitlam becoming the fi rst mayor of Port Coquitlam General Hospital and the UBC Hospital Foundation — — one James Mars. one of the biggest personal donations ever in the history Since that time, Port Coquitlam has grown from an of British Columbia. agricultural-industrial community of around 1,200 Th ese two men measure success not by wealth but by people to the community of some 55,000 today. Th e the ability to inspire, encourage and help others. I ask the railway is still an important part of that, as are many House to join me in thanking them for everything they've of the families that helped to found Port Coquitlam done for British Columbia. — names like Gillespies and Wingroves and, in fact, Routleys, one of whose descendants sits in this House SEABIRD COLLEGE today. Some interesting facts about Port Coquitlam. Th e fi rst G. O'Mahony: British Columbia is facing a skills woman alderman in British Columbia to be elected to lo- shortage. Roughly 80 percent of all jobs in the next fi ve to cal government was from Port Coquitlam, in 1934. Her ten years will require some form of post-secondary edu- name was Jane Kilmer. She served for 34 years. We're the cation. Seabird College is an example of how one creative hometown of Terry Fox, Canada's greatest hero. We're First Nations community in the Chilliwack-Hope riding also the home where the fi rst NDP Premier of British is preparing to meet the challenge of skills training and Columbia, Dave Barrett, resided — not East Vancouver, literacy by off ering the B.C. adult Dogwood along with but Port Coquitlam. trade or vocational training. Some other interesting facts. What community in It began fi rst as a vision. In 1971 Chief Archie Charles the Lower Mainland has the greatest park space of any- envisioned local education, from kindergarten to col- where in Metro? Port Coquitlam. Join me in wishing Port lege, available right within the community of Seabird Coquitlam a happy centennial. Island. Th ese houses of learning would be a place where [1355] students could receive their education, taught from a Stó:lô value perspective. It was an ambitious dream, but WORK AND PHILANTHROPY OF BUSINESS in 2009, under the leadership of Chief Clem Seymour, LEADERS JOE SEGAL AND PETER LEGGE Seabird College offi cially opened. It was considered the greatest goal of band manager Daryl McNeil and H. Bloy: It is my pleasure to pay tribute today to two successful British Columbians who work tirelessly to give council. back to their community. Today there are roughly 198 full-time students en- Joe Segal. Joe is a legend in British Columbia, known rolled in 16 diff erent programs. I had the honour of at- for his real estate ventures and sole ownership of such tending the graduation ceremony class of 2012, and I'll stores as Fields, Zellers and the Bay. Joe has built a far- never forget the testimony of one young man who com- reaching empire. His generosity is well known. Many pleted his grade 12 in a pipe-laying program. He recalled organizations have benefi ted from his guidance and his how he felt going into the program, racked with a sense ability as a leader and a fundraiser. At 87, Joe still goes of dread that he would not be able to complete the course to work every day with a smile on his face. work, especially the math. Peter Legge is co-founder of Canada Wide Media, the This young man was jubilant as he recalled, with largest privately owned magazine publishing company genuine gratitude, how with the assistance of his in- in western Canada. He is internationally renowned as structors and support staff he was able to attain his a motivational speaker and a best-selling author whose goal. In fact, he was guaranteed employment even be- success is matched only by his philanthropy. Peter has fore completing his course work. Seabird College had served as co-host of the Variety Club telethon, the chil- given him the tools to do just that. But his story and dren's charity, for the past 30 years. In that time he has the countless others were more than simple acceptance helped to raise more than $150 million towards the speeches. What is happening at Seabird College is a life- cause. But what sets these two men apart is not their transforming experience. success but that they have used their success to give I raise my hands to Chief Clem Seymour; the leader- back. ship of Diane Janzen, Diane Parkinson and Daryl McNeil; In 2002 Peter suff ered a stroke during a speech to the council; the education and college committee; the in- the American Mental Health Association. His experi- structors; and the students. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13335

Oral Questions Hon. P. Bell: Again, I answered that question last week. Th ose allegations are false. If the member would like to GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO ALLEGATIONS repeat those allegations outside of this House, I would REGARDING WOOD INNOVATION CENTRE encourage him to do so. BIDDING PROCESS D. Donaldson: These are serious allegations, and N. Macdonald: Last week the opposition raised ques- they're public allegations. Th ey are, in fact, the allegations tions in the House related to a complaint by two Prince of a longtime B.C. Liberal donor and well-established George business owners about the actions of two min- northern business owner. Th is business owner said the isters in the assembly of property for the wood innova- Jobs Minister was eventually…. tion and design centre. Now, the government asserted at the time that the fairness adviser had exonerated the two Interjections. ministers of any wrongdoing, but British Columbians are going to need proof to back up that assertion. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1400] Member, just take your seat for a second. Th e question for the Justice Minister is this. Will she Continue, Member. release today the full report of the fairness adviser, in- cluding all records and correspondence between the D. Donaldson: This business owner said the Jobs government, the complainants and all other interested Minister was eventually apologetic but that he would parties? continue to try to make the deal work in his donor's favour. "He tried to amend Partnerships B.C. proposal Hon. P. Bell: I was clear about this answer last week. structure, for sure," the business owner alleges. Another I'll repeat it for the member opposite. All documents quote: "He had his fi ngers way too close into it." It's sim- will be released when the contract is awarded. I'm led to ply not good enough for the Liberal government to ig- believe by the project board that that will be in the next nore these very serious allegations. week or two. Again, to the Justice Minister, what steps has she taken I do have a letter from the fairness adviser that ar- to address the allegations of impropriety by the Jobs ticulates, I think, the answer to the member opposite's Minister? question. Th e fairness adviser refers to the letter to her regarding the procurement process for the wood in- Hon. P. Bell: I'm certain that the member opposite novation and design centre, including the allegations will have an opportunity to answer this question in his that there were promises made. In the letter it says: "I supplemental. I would just ask the member opposite if reviewed the matter and subsequently reported to the he would confi rm whether or not Mr. Fehr, who is the project board that I was satisfi ed the evaluation process individual that he's referring to, has made a signifi cant had not been compromised and that the WIDC procure- donation to the NDP in the last 12 or 13 months through ment had been handled appropriately to date." either himself or one of his companies. Th e remainder of the materials, of course, will be re- leased, as I said, when the contract's awarded. Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental.

Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental. D. Donaldson: While this is question period, we're asking the questions. If the minister waits long enough, N. Macdonald: Clearly, selectively reading elements he'll get his chance on this side to ask questions. out of the report is not going to be satisfactory in any Last week the Jobs Minister claimed that he was…. way. Th e allegations are incredibly serious. I'll just read what one of the local business people said, Interjections. and this is on the record. It's a direct quote here, speaking about the Jobs Minister. "Th e Jobs Minister committed Mr. Speaker: Members. to me that if I would do that, purchase the land off Dan Continue, Member. McLaren, that he would make sure we got shortlisted, and then you could have what they call an alternative D. Donaldson: Last week the Jobs Minister claimed method in the bid. He absolutely promised me that he that he was completely hands-off from the decision- would get me shortlisted." making and the land deal at the heart of these allegations. Th ere have been eight days since the allegations were Yet the public record showed something diff erent. published in the media. What steps has the Justice [1405] Minister taken to investigate what are very serious char- A briefi ng note for decision prepared by the CEO of ges? the Northern Development Initiative Trust, Janine North, 13336 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

says that both the Jobs Minister and the Justice Minister Justice Minister had thrown their political weight behind were part of discussions about the location of the wood a specifi c purchase of land, she made the recommenda- innovation and design centre. tion that "a term sheet be developed to enable Northern Ms. North said: "I have had discussions during Sep- Initiative Development Trust to provide a secured loan tember 2009 with the Minister of Forests and Range, the to the Commonwealth Campus Corp." Th e term sheet Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure and the would be subject to a Treasury Board decision which ap- vice-chair of the Treasury Board, who have all clearly ar- proved suffi cient capital budget for the construction of ticulated the strong interest of having UNBC's wood in- the wood innovation centre. novation and design centre located in downtown Prince Again, to the Justice Minister. Th is contradicts what George." She then adds: "Th e government is aware of the the Jobs Minister has been saying and supports the al- land assembly opportunity." legations made by two Prince George developers. So what Now, given the discrepancy between what the Jobs steps is the Justice Minister taking to get to the bottom Minister says and what is on the public record from the of these allegations? CEO of the Northern Development Initiative Trust, what is the Justice Minister doing to investigate these ongoing Hon. P. Bell: It's interesting to me that one of the in- allegations? dividuals that's making the allegations has donated a sig- nifi cant amount of money to the NDP about a year ago. Hon. P. Bell: I challenged the member opposite to dis- Of course, we don't have any more current records than close whether or not Mr. Fehr, through any of his com- that, so it would be interesting to see what additional do- panies, had made a signifi cant donation to the NDP. nations have been made by these parties to the oppos- Perhaps the member doesn't know that last February, ition during that point in time. It certainly brings into February of 2012, Mr. Fehr, through one of his compan- question, for me, what is going on here. ies, wrote a cheque to the NDP for $50,000. Perhaps I know that research doesn't fall in the long suit of the the member opposite doesn't know that Mr. Fehr had opposition, but I would like to raise something for the one of his employees go and pick up the Leader of the member opposite that would be readily available, ac- Opposition, show him around Prince George for a day tually, on the racks over in the corner. It's the Northern and helped to start organize the NDP campaign in Prince Development Initiative Trust Act that was passed in this George. Perhaps the member opposite doesn't know that House. I actually think members on both sides supported this is the same Mr. Fehr that has been attending and it when it went through. helped organize diff erent events for the NDP throughout [1410] Prince George and in the forestry industry. If the members check section 2, they will note that the Th is member refuses to repeat the allegations outside responsibility of the Northern Development Initiative the chamber that he has raised inside the chamber. I'd Trust is to establish regional advisory committees. Who encourage him, if he has the conviction of his beliefs, to sits on those regional advisory committees? All of the do that outside. mayors of each of the municipalities within the region that have a population greater than 500; the chairs of the M. Karagianis: These are very serious allegations regional district that is, in part or in whole, within the against a minister of the Crown. region; and Members of the Legislative Assembly. Th at briefi ng note for decision was a well-considered It is our responsibility to advise Northern Development document drafted by the CEO of a trust that is now Initiative Trust, not to make the decisions — to advise. under the purview of that minister. It was presented to Th at's exactly what that note says. Of course we would the board of the Northern Development Initiative Trust be advocating for projects in our community. Th at's our by Ms. North, the CEO. responsibility.

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental.

Mr. Speaker: Members. M. Karagianis: Earlier this week we learned that the Member, just take your seat. Jobs Minister and the former Finance Minister met with Continue, Member. the mayor of Prince George and the CEO of the Northern Development Initiative Trust in the spring of 2012. Th ey M. Karagianis: Th e note was presented to the board of met to discuss the wood innovation centre. the Northern Development Initiative Trust by Ms. North, But the mayor of Prince George, Shari Green, is on the the CEO. Her purpose was to convince the board to lend record as saying that the Jobs Minister, aft er all of the en- a considerable amount of money to Commonwealth couragement to assemble this land and encouragement Campus for a public project. for these developers to make their submission, suggested After clearly saying that the Jobs Minister and the that the Northern Development Initiative Trust, aft er Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13337

having loaned them the money, foreclose on the loan to My question is to the minister. When does requesting Mr. McLaren — a loan assured by the lands involved in by the person who appoints the CEO or person who ap- the wood innovation centre. points the board…? When does that request become co- Six months later, and quite suddenly, the trust did ercion? Will he answer that question? exactly that. Now these two business owners are out hun- dreds of thousands of dollars and are alleging impropri- Interjections. ety at the hands of the Jobs Minister. So to the Justice Minister: these are very serious allega- Mr. Speaker: Members. tions — not to be taken lightly, not to be brushed off by the Jobs Minister. What is the Justice Minister doing to Hon. P. Bell: Th e member opposite usually comes bet- get to the bottom of these allegations? ter prepared for question period than he has today, clearly. I think that he has just crossed a line, and that is an in- Hon. P. Bell: If the member opposite were to read the teresting comment would it be made outside the House. entire clip that she just referred to, she would note that Clearly, the member opposite just read something, the mayor of Prince George noted that she thought I was and I don't have a copy of that document in front of me. speaking in jest and that I was not serious when I sug- I don't know what he's referring to. But I recall him say- gested that. Th at's actually what the full clip says. ing in his words that the mayor and council of Prince But I would point out to the member opposite — and George were also involved in that. again, I'm happy to provide a copy of the Northern [1415] Development Initiative Trust Act for her if she is unable Northern Development Initiative Trust is an independ- to source that document — that subsection 5(3) of the ent body. Th e province of British Columbia appoints fi ve act says: "Th e Northern Development Initiative Trust is of 13 members to that board. Th e board is controlled by not an agent of the government." mayors throughout the Northern Development Initiative Decisions are made by the board. It is the responsibil- Trust area, not by this provincial government. Th at's the ity of local MLAs, local mayors and local regional dis- way it was set up in the fi rst place. Th e Auditor General trict chairs to advise the board on good projects. We do has continued to confi rm that this is an arm's-length or- exactly that. I'm sure the member opposite would do that ganization. Th ey make decisions on their own. Th e mem- if she had that opportunity as well. ber opposite should do his homework.

CORRESPONDENCE FROM NORTHERN Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a further supplemental. DEVELOPMENT INITIATIVE TRUST TO JOBS MINISTER INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION INTO WOOD INNOVATION CENTRE J. Horgan: Will the Jobs Minister advise this House BIDDING PROCESS if he received correspondence in March of 2010 from the CEO of the Northern Development Initiative Trust? J. Horgan: Now, serious allegations have been swirling around the wood innovation and design centre in Prince Hon. P. Bell: I don't know what correspondence the George — serious allegations. Th e document prepared by member is referring to. I'll take that question on notice. the CEO of the Northern Trust says that moneys were lent — public moneys were lent — to private individuals Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental, but to assemble land at the request of the Minister of Jobs diff erent. and the Attorney General. Clearly, the Attorney General can't investigate herself. JOBS MINISTER'S INTERACTION My question is to the Premier. Isn't it past time that an WITH NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT independent body is appointed to investigate the scandal INITIATIVE TRUST swirling around the wood innovation and design centre? Isn't it about time? J. Horgan: Th e minister was referring to sections of the act whereby the advisory committees off er advice. I Hon. P. Bell: You know, in about 14 or so minutes, have a document signed by Janine North, the CEO of the maybe 15, that member opposite is going to have a Northern Development Initiative Trust, that says as fol- chance to walk through those doors and make that lows: "We have acted as the lender, fi nancing 75 percent same statement outside. Th at would be outside the pro- of the property acquisition costs of the following lots at tection that is off ered to that member when he's inside the request of the two local ministers of the Crown and this House. the interest expressed by the mayor and council of the You know what? Th ere was actually an interesting inter- city of Prince George." view by a gentleman who is a reporter in Prince George to- 13338 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

day, who has actually been on this fi le since last November. I would remind the Attorney General that she sits at a The member opposite should read the transcript. You cabinet table enjoying a very important role, a dual role. know what it says, Mr. Speaker? Th ey've dug as deep as She is not just a member of cabinet. She is the Attorney they can on this, and there's nothing there. It's that simple. General. It's a tough call for her to make, but I'm sug- If the member opposite has any evidence, any evidence to gesting to her today what the appropriate thing to do the contrary, I'd encourage him to step outside and pro- is: to advise the House that she's going to order an in- vide that evidence publicly. dependent investigation into this matter and clear the air once and for all. If this government has nothing to hide, L. Krog: It's most interesting. Now the standard of then let it be investigated appropriately. public inquiry in this province has devolved down to in- vestigative reporters being relied on to give proof of al- Hon. P. Bell: You know, it's interesting to me that that legations to the people of British Columbia. member would ask this question for a couple of reasons. Hon. Speaker, these allegations are not allegations One is that he's from Nanaimo, but the other is that he made by the opposition pulled out of thin air. Th ese actually sits on one of the advisory boards, for the Island are serious allegations made in written submissions to Coastal Economic Trust. I bet that he has gone and ad- the fairness adviser and corroborated by statements on vocated for projects to that particular trust in his com- the public record and written documents by public of- munity. I am almost certain of that. Perhaps the member ficials. When such serious allegations are made, and opposite could tell us what projects he has been advocat- when they're levied against cabinet ministers, it's vital — ing for in his community. I would trust and hope — and clear to all that the pub- lic interest be protected. Th at requires that the Attorney Interjections. General get to the bottom of it. Will the Attorney General, in her role today, commit to Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat, Member. a thorough independent investigation to get to the bot- Burnaby–Deer Lake. tom of the allegations around the wood innovation and design centre and land assembly? GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO CLOSING OF KITSILANO COAST GUARD STATION Hon. P. Bell: I find it a little tough to take from a member from Nanaimo, the only party in this House K. Corrigan: Th is morning we woke up to news of a that actually has had an organized kickback scheme near tragedy in the waters off Point Grey. At 5:15 a.m. a from charities to help fund their political party — to mayday call came in from a fi shing boat, and two men make such accusations, particularly for the member for were rescued. Th is is just days aft er another near miss Nanaimo to raise that. when a sailboat ran aground off Jericho Beach with two Ms. Shackell has thoroughly reviewed this matter. She'll people on board. be releasing her full report. I've already read into the record When the Kitsilano Coast Guard station was sudden- the key comments she's made to the board that is carrying ly closed just over two weeks ago, the Premier told us this project forward. The decisions are being made in- that she would fi ght to save it. On February 20 she told dependently at arm's length from me. It's going to be a great media: "If you think the fi ght is over, it ain't over." Well, project. It's going to advance wood technologies in British the Coast Guard signs are now gone, and the dock has Columbia. It's a long time coming, and it's going to really been hauled away. yield benefi ts for British Columbians well into the future. We know that the Premier intended to press the feder- al government on this issue. We heard that the Attorney Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental. General would write a strongly worded letter and that the Premier intended to make phone calls. Will the Premier L. Krog: If the minister has any allegations to make tell us: what were the results of this action? about my association, or lack thereof, with the Nanaimo Commonwealth Holding Society, let him take it outside. Hon. S. Bond: Th ankfully, today there was a fortun- We've heard denials from ministers of the Crown, but ate response. In fact, the two individuals that were poten- they fl y in the face of what's on the public record. Ms. tially at risk were actually rescued, and I'm grateful to the Shackell herself indicated she had no jurisdiction to in- men and women who helped participate in that. vestigate. Th e minister is suggesting an investigative re- Both the Premier and I have been very clear about porter has some jurisdiction to investigate. the role that we've taken. Not only have we written [1420] specifi c letters about this issue over the past number of So the issue becomes very much one of public trust. months, but in fact in the last week or so I spoke directly Th e only way you can ensure that trust is if there's an in- with Minister Ashfi eld and laid out very clearly British vestigation. Columbia's concerns. Th e Premier has also had contact Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13339

directly with the federal government. We've been clear Interjections. about this, along with the non-partisan reaction that has taken place across British Columbia. It is unacceptable. M. Farnworth: I fi nd it really interesting that I'm not Th is is a matter of public safety, and we continue to urge criticizing the minister, yet they want to heckle because the federal government to change their position. I'm pointing out the stupidity of the federal government's decision. Mr. Speaker: Th e member has a supplemental. So, hon. Speaker….

K. Corrigan: Last May this government turned down Interjections. an off er from the offi cial opposition leader to protest the federal government's Coast Guard cuts through a unifi ed Mr. Speaker: Members. strategy between our parties. We proposed a motion of Just take your seat for a second, Member. support, a joint committee and a trip to Ottawa presenting Members. a united front. Th is government turned us down fl at. Continue, Member. When a strong bipartisan action was required, this government played politics. Will the Premier please tell M. Farnworth: Th e member says: "Calm down." Well, us why she turned down an off er of support from other this kind of waste does make people's blood boil. It cer- elected representatives on an issue that is so vitally im- tainly got the public of British Columbia upset, and it portant to British Columbians? should get every member of this chamber upset. [1425] Given that it does not make sense to shut the Coast Guard station down to "save money" and then have to Hon. S. Bond: Perhaps the member opposite hasn't spend money to renovate the Sea Island base, will the heard my clips in the media. In every single interview that minister not recognize that now, more than ever, is the I do, I point out that this is not a partisan issue. So while time to put together a bipartisan approach to let Ottawa the member opposite may want to be hung up on the fact know, in no uncertain terms, how their decision to cut that she wasn't invited to go to Ottawa, I went to Ottawa on the Coast Guard station, to close it, does not make sense, more than one occasion, spoke directly to the Minister of budgetary or otherwise? Public Safety and Minister Ashfi eld. Th e Premier of British Columbia has actually had meetings and phone calls. In Hon. S. Bond: It's rare that we have heated agreement every one of those discussions I pointed out that, in fact, in this Legislature. I think that's exactly what we have. this was a non-partisan issue, that we've had politicians of We have made it clear and, as I've said in my previous virtually every political stripe, including mayors and MLAs answers, at no time did I stand or discuss with minis- and others, stand up and say: "Not acceptable." ters this issue without refl ecting the fact that it is a non- We actually understand the importance of making partisan issue — that leaders across this province have very diffi cult budget decisions. We've just gone through said clearly that it is unacceptable — and that we need a process. But we've made it clear that when it's a matter to urge the federal government today to consider look- of public safety, that's not acceptable, and we have asked ing at this decision. the federal government to change their position. Th e only thing that I'm worried about is the fact that that sounded like a question that would be far better M. Farnworth: Well, the minister actually made a very asked in the federal parliament. I'm wondering if the interesting point, and that was budget decisions. Th e member opposite has other career aspirations he hasn't federal government said that they are closing the Coast let his colleagues know about. Guard station for budgetary reasons, to "save money." [1430] Well, since that decision, we have now learned that the oil spill response boat that was based at the Kits Coast [End of question period.] Guard station, which fi tted at the Kits Coast Guard sta- tion, will not fi t at the new Sea Island base where it's K. Conroy: I seek leave to present a petition. supposed to be based. Th e federal government says, "Oh, we're doing it to save money," but now we fi nd out that Mr. Speaker: Proceed. the boat won't fi t at the Sea Island base, so they're going to have to spend money to extend the dock so that the Petitions oil spill response boat can fi t there. What kind of budgetary saving is that? They're clos- K. Conroy: I have a petition from over 2,000 residents ing it down to save money, and they're going to have to requesting the House pass legislation that mandates sen- spend more money to make the boat fi t. Never mind, never iors in care facilities in must be checked on mind…. and accounted for on a daily basis. 13340 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

Tabling Documents Th ose are my remarks at this stage.

Hon. S. Bond: I have the honour to present the fol- B. Ralston: I rise briefl y to speak to the bill, to just lowing reports: the Crown Proceeding Act report for the make the following comments. Section 1 authorizes the fi scal year ending March 31, 2012; the Public Guardian expenditure of six-twelft hs of the total amount of the and Trustee of B.C. Annual Report 2011-2012; the B.C. main estimates, which, by my rough calculation, takes Utilities Commission 2011-2012 Annual Report; and the the expenditure to the last week of September 2013. Th at annual report of the Environmental Appeal Board for the is in accordance with the practice that has evolved here fi scal year ending March 31, 2012. in the previous elections in 2005 and 2009. Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules says: "Interim sup- Orders of the Day ply provides the government with money to meet its obli- gations during the time before the main estimates are Hon. M. de Jong: I call second reading of Bill 13, to approved." It's also clear in parliamentary practice that be followed in due course by committee stage on Bill 5. "approval of interim supply does not authorize spending by the government on new programs. It only authorizes Second Reading of Bills spending in accordance with the main estimates." [1435] BILL 13 — SUPPLY ACT (No. 1), 2013 Perhaps the only further point I would note is that the minister has made reference, quite properly, to section Hon. M. de Jong: I move that Bill 13 be read a second 2. It refers to capital expenditures. He referred, perhaps time now. somewhat obliquely, to timing. This authorizes two- Existing voted appropriations will expire on March thirds of the total voted amounts, and that is to accom- 31 of 2013. Bill 13 will provide interim supply until the modate construction. Typically, construction in British completion of the 2013 election and the formation of a Columbia would begin in the late spring and be going post-election government. full tilt in the summer and perhaps being completed in the fall. But relatively few construction projects would [L. Reid in the chair.] be initiated in the winter. So that's designed to accom- modate the construction schedule of capital projects that Interim supply for ministry operations and other ap- the government intends to proceed with. propriations is based on the voted expenses as presented in the 2013-14 estimates. Th e interim supply period for [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] these appropriations has been set at six months. Th is will ensure the continuation of government services Just for those members of the public who may be con- until aft er the election and gives the government the full cerned, our support for this bill does not mean that in range of time contemplated in the Budget Transparency any way we support the budget. Th is is simply the legis- and Accountability Act for preparation and tabling of a lative and statutory mechanism to continue government post-election budget. spending until the Legislature has an opportunity to con- Interim supply for fi nancing transaction requirements sider the estimates in their entirety. Given the election is based on two-thirds of the combined voted amounts in timing, that will only take place aft er the election takes schedules C and D of the 2013-14 estimates. Th ese dis- place and a new Legislature is contemplated. bursements are not evenly distributed throughout the With those brief remarks, I would conclude my com- year. Additional appropriation is required to accommo- ments. date project timing. Schedule E of the 2013-14 estimates outlines the rev- Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the minis- enue collected for and transferred to other entities. As ter…. there is no impact on the defi cit, borrowing or debt re- sulting from schedule E fi nancing transactions, 100 per- B. Simpson: No, I'm going to speak. cent of the year's requirements is being sought in this My humble apologies to the Speaker. I was on a tele- supply bill. conference with a silviculture conference in Kamloops, Th ese interim supply appropriations are based on the and we were watching to see when this debate would accountabilities outlined in the 2013-14 estimates. Th ey come up. I thank you for your indulgence. are not outside the scrutiny of Committee of Supply. I want to thank the government that we have a six- Th e fi nal supply bill for 2013-14 to be passed by the next month interim supply. I know that there was some de- Legislature will incorporate these amounts to ensure the bate as to whether that would be three months, four estimates refl ect the total voted appropriation to be given months, fi ve months or six months. It is six months, as to the government in 2013-14. it ought to be. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13341

For people who aren't aware of what that means, it cal year, March 31, there will be no sense on the part of means that aft er the election whoever forms government ministries what their go-forward budget is, other than gets a six-month period of time to revisit the budget, to the minimum operating that they've got, which this bill allow MLAs to settle in — we're going to have a lot of new allows us to do. faces and a lot of new people in this chamber — and to It allows us to keep the minimum operations of gov- allow ministers to get their heads around their portfolios. ernment going. It allows us to give them the ability to pay The idea of going to three months' interim supply their employees. It allows them to do things that they've didn't even advantage the government, because they committed to do. But what it doesn't allow are those en- might even actually have half of their cabinet who were tities to understand what any of the strategic initiatives new who would have to defend service plans that they'd might be, where there's strategic funding. just got dumped on their desks. Having three-month As a classic example, the Minister of FLNRO has indi- interim supply would also have meant that if there is a cated a certain amount of money is going to be put to change in government there would have had to be spe- inventory work. Th at's a laudable promise. But in this cial warrants, which would have got that government off budget will that inventory work actually commence or on the wrong foot. not, because now we're just going to be living on interim Aft er the 2005 election the government reconvened fi nance for six months? September 12, and I would imagine that's around the What is it, if we are going to change government, that time that we're going to do that now. In 2005 it was a the NDP would do with that fi le? Would they dramatic- six-month interim supply. In 2009 the government re- ally change that? Would they increase it? Would they de- convened the Legislature August 29, so again, it does cline it? We need inventory work done now, so we need give that time. a budget passed now — not having to have government I believe that what interim supply in this case means live on interim supply. is that we need to understand clearly the problems as- Every year that we have a budget we get interim sup- sociated with a fi xed spring election date. I want to take ply. I want the audience or whoever is reading this to some time here — to give notice to the Speaker — to talk understand that interim supply is a normal function of about why we need to change that date. It's because with government. interim supply we trigger two things: No. 1, the budget When you get a non–election year budget, the gov- triggers cynicism, and No. 2, the interim supply triggers ernment introduces a three-month interim supply. Th at uncertainty in government. three-month interim supply allows us to operate past Th at uncertainty in government is patently unfair to March 31 — for April, May and June. Th e reason for that the ministries that depend on government for a budget is that this Legislature is sitting, this Legislature is debat- and for a budget cycle that occurs every four years the ing the budget, and this Legislature acts on the basis that same way, that gives the government — government min- the budget tabled will in fact be passed. Th at's fundamen- istries, agencies that depend on government fi nancing tally diff erent than what's happening now. — a budget, gives them what they need in the way of cer- When we have a normal budget cycle, we are in a tainty of their operating. If we continue on this vein, if we situation where the signals have already been given. Th e continue to have these fi xed election dates in the spring, work of Treasury Board, the work with all of those min- it means every four years we build in this uncertainty to istries is all incorporated into the budget. Th e leaders of the provincial government functions. We build in this those various ministries — the deputy ministers, the as- uncertainty to the workings of not-for-profi t organiza- sistant deputy ministers — can signal to their employees tions and trust funds, etc. that depend on government out in the fi eld and in their various offi ces what it's go- for their base funding. ing to look like. [1440] In this case, they can't do that. At the end of the budget We also create, if you will, a hiatus in government. And cycle in a normal budget year, when we pass the budget at in this case, that hiatus is fundamentally diff erent than the end of May, there's a period of time when we operate what the government has experienced before. under interim fi nance, and then letters go out. Spending I would argue that in 2005 we had a situation where authority letters go out to the various ministries, and the the government was expected to be the same governing various initiatives and the promises made in the budget party. In 2009 the expected government, the most like- start to get action. ly outcome, was the same governing party. So at a min- In a fi xed–election year budget — so this year — that imum, governing agencies could determine what their doesn't happen. For six months now post–March 31, budgets might be based on the budget that was tabled from April through until September, government agen- prior to the election. cies are going to be in the unenviable position of not In this case, that's simply not the case. Th e government knowing what it is they're supposed to be doing other agencies and dependent organizations don't have a clue than deliver basic government services. what the budget is going to be. As of the end of the fi s- I've heard field officers, conservation officers, told 13342 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

to stay in their office and Forest, Lands and Natural will, a promissory note to British Columbians that "If you Resource Operations compliance and enforcement offi - elect us, you will get this" — which they don't buy. cers, "Stay in your offi ce," because they don't know what What it would be is a budget that gets scrutinized, gets the budgets are. Th ey don't know what it is they're go- passed, gets verifi ed and looked at by two independent ing to do. offi cers of the Legislature. Th en both parties would go to What you get into is a cost management. You start re- the election in the fall of 2017 on the basis of that budget. ducing the costs of all of those operations in order to wait It would stop all of this uncertainty. It would stop feed- it out, if you will. ing this cynicism. Together with the other independent Th is year we're going to wait it out, and we have an MLAs, we're asking MLAs to assert themselves in their untenable situation in which the opposition party hasn't caucuses and ask for the change to be done. even tabled what their intentions are. Th is interim fi - I can pretty much guarantee you that if we don't do it nance bill gets passed, as it should — and, correctly, for now, the likelihood of it getting done is very diminished six months. But at the end of passing the bill at the end post-election. Th e government party in power will not of this session, we are then going to institute six months pass legislation that will appear to be self-serving. Quite of uncertainty — deep, deep uncertainty. frankly, they wouldn't mind going into an election with [1445] a pre-election budget in the same circumstances, where What we have indicated as independents, as part of they can put forward a promissory note and go to the a six-point democratic reform agenda that we have put electorate. forward, is that we have a unique opportunity right now. I thank the government that this is a six-month inter- It is very unique. im supply bill. Th at's the right thing to do. But let's not We have a government that proved it could not, even have to do this in another election year. Let's allow gov- by spending $25,000 of taxpayer money to get an in- ernment to operate every year on a passed budget, on the dependent economic assessment of their budget, move government actually funding the operations of govern- the public cynicism of that budget forward at all. Th ey ment more fully. couldn't do it. It didn't move the dial. People don't be- With that, I thank you again for your indulgence in lieve this is a real budget. We're compounding that now with the uncertainty in government. letting me start today. We think we have an ideal opportunity. If we change the election date now…. We could do it in fi ve minutes Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the Minister if the government was so inclined and if MLAs were so of Finance closes debate. inclined. Today we sent out a challenge to MLAs, ask- ing them to work within their caucuses to make this Hon. M. de Jong: Th anks to the members who con- change now. tributed to the debate. I move second reading of Bill 13. What would happen is we would bring a bill into this House — the government can bring that bill in — intro- Motion approved. duce it, and by leave of this House we can do all three readings in one time. In fi ve minutes we could make the Hon. M. de Jong: I move the bill be referred to a next election date…. Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the I want to clarify this. My staff are having angst right next sitting aft er today. now, because we get hit in Twitter that I want to give the current government a few more months at the helm. Bill 13, Supply Act (No. 1), 2013, read a second time Th at's not the case. Th is election would still occur on May and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for 14. But the next election would occur the fi rst week of consideration at the next sitting of the House aft er today. October in 2017. We would fi x the problem. Yes, that means if the current opposition forms gov- Hon. M. de Jong: I call Bill 5 committee stage debate, ernment, as some government MLAs have told me, that Protected Areas of B.C. Amendment Act. "the socialist hordes would get an extra eight months of [1450] government." But we felt it was fairest, recognizing the tradition in British Columbia of a fi ve-year mandate — Committee of the Whole House up until such time as it was a fi xed election, government could sit for a full fi ve years and govern for a full fi ve years BILL 5 — PROTECTED AREAS OF — to pull it back to 4½ years, not 3½. We didn't feel that BRITISH COLUMBIA AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 3½ years was fair if the government does changes hands. (continued) You still end up in a situation where that fourth budget cannot be a pre-election budget. It can't be a budget that Th e House in Committee of the Whole on Bill 5; L. doesn't have credibility. It can't be a fake budget, if you Reid in the chair. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13343

Th e committee met at 2:51 p.m. sibilities. I'm wondering if there would be additional re- sources to ensure that the concerns of the Gitanyow are D. Donaldson: Hon. Chair, if the committee would alleviated around the corridor and the potential for wild- indulge me, I'm required elsewhere about the time when life fatalities. section 6 may be considered. So I'd like to move that sec- tions 3 to 5 be stood down to accommodate me in order Hon. T. Lake: Th e highway itself is not in the park, al- to enter the debate on the aforementioned section. though it bisects the park, essentially. So the establish- If I could move we could stand down on sections 4 and ment of the park really has no bearing on the road and 5 so I can enter the debate on section 6. Th en we'll return its industrial use. In other words, if the park wasn't there, to section 4 aft er that. that road would still be used and would still run the risk of increased wildlife fatalities due to the increased use Th e Chair: Hon. Members, section 3 carried yesterday. due to industrial activity. However, of course, we will certainly work with the D. Donaldson: What I'm asking is, if you would in- Gitanyow and with the Ministry of Transportation and dulge me…. I'm required elsewhere when section 6 is Infrastructure to look at strategies if, in fact, wildlife fatal- coming up. I have asked that we may consider that sec- ities do pose a risk. Anywhere in the province where this tion now. So I would move that sections 4 and 5 be stood occurs, and certainly in my part of the province, this is down to accommodate me, and then I'll enter the debate a concern in certain corridors. And there are strategies on section 6. Th en we'll return to 4 and 5 aft er that. that are employed by the Ministry of Transportation — refl ectors and, at times, fencing. Th e Chair: Is it the wish of the House to move to sec- But you know, we would have to look at those strat- tion 6 for consideration and then return to 4 and 5? egies if, in fact, that turned out to be a concern. I'm cer- tainly willing to work with the Gitanyow to address those Sections 4 and 5 stood down. concerns should they be realized.

On section 6. D. Donaldson: Th anks for that answer. My other ques- tion is in regards to this particular conservancy. Th is D. Donaldson: Thanks for the indulgence of the particular section outlines fi ve mineral claims that are House and the members on the other side and the in- excluded from the conservancy. Could the minister in- dependents. I requested this because section 6 deals with form the House where…? I've looked at the maps a few the Hanna-Tintina conservancy, which is entirely within times. I had them spread out on the fl oor of the Clerk's the constituency of Stikine. So I appreciate the oppor- offi ce, and they were quite accommodating for that. It tunity to be able to address this conservancy at this time. wasn't apparent where the mineral claims are in the con- Th is conservancy is 23,702 hectares. servancy. So if the minister could explain where these fi ve I would like to start by congratulating not only the mineral claims are and what the nature of the claims are. Ministry of Environment but the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations and the Th e Chair: Th e member for Surrey-Tynehead seeks Gitanyow, because this conservancy is an integral part leave to make an introduction. of the Gitanyow Huwlip recognition and reconciliation agreement as well as the Nass River south resource man- Leave granted. agement plan. So congratulations to those involved in this conservancy. Introductions by Members I would like to describe one concern, though. Th e Highway 37 corridor bisects the Hanna-Tintina, and D. Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 50 the Gitanyow are very concerned about the potential for grade fi ve students visiting from my constituency, from wildlife fatalities along that corridor due to the increased a school, the Surrey Christian Middle School. It is one industrial traffi c along Highway 37. Th is area was set of the best schools in my riding of Surrey-Tynehead. aside not only due to high salmon values but also high Th ey are joined here by their three teachers — Mr. Eric grizzly bear values. Th ere are moose crossing that cor- Fernhout, Miss Karina Wiebenga and Ms. Kathleen ridor as well. Janzen — and 20 parent volunteers who have taken time [1455] out of their busy schedules to accompany the students. I note in the budget, under the B.C. Parks section, Some of these students maybe plan to run for MLA stewardship activities and compliance and enforcement or Member of Parliament or be a Premier or a Prime activities are part of the responsibility here. My question Minister or a mayor or councillor. Would the House around this particular section is whether there would please make them very welcome to learn about the gov- be…. Th e budget is fl atlined on that part of the respon- ernment. 13344 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

Debate Continued Hon. T. Lake: I want to assure the member that it's not the 11th hour of this government. Th is is maybe hour 3 Hon. T. Lake: The mineral tenures in the Hanna- of this government. Tintina conservancy are actually not in the conservancy. Th e Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan was approved Th ey've been excluded, so they are on the periphery of in October of 1994. Direction was provided. Th e goal the conservancy. In the Ne’āh' conservancy there are fi ve 2 areas would be identifi ed through further planning at placer claims that will be expropriated. But in the Hanna- the local level. So this process has been going on for a Tintina conservancy these existing claims are not includ- very long time. Of course, the mandate of the Ministry of ed in the boundary of the conservancy. Environment and B.C. Parks is to look for opportunities to provide conservation and recreational opportunities Section 6 approved on division. throughout British Columbia. Th at's why these land use management plans are created and, generally speaking, Th e Chair: Returning to consideration of section 4. I would say, widely accepted. In this case, extensive consultation…. First of all, iden- On section 4 (continued). tifi cation of proposed areas was done by the general pub- [1500] lic, by stakeholder groups and by the ministry. We had evaluations by local, regional protected area teams to B. Simpson: I want to thank the minister's staff for determine the regional signifi cance of the natural, cul- both the briefi ng note and them taking some time with tural or recreational values present, and extensive con- me the other morning to walk me through the maps as- sultation with First Nations, stakeholder groups and local sociated with some parks that are going to be new parks, government. for Cariboo North particularly. Establishing these goal 2 areas is integral to main- However, as the minister knows, that dialogue wasn't taining the balance of the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use on the public record. Th ere are some things I want to plan objectives and meeting the expectations of First put on the public record. Hence, I will ask some of those Nations in treaty negotiations and, of course, speaks to questions now. the Auditor General and his recommendations around I guess the struggle that I have is a struggle of com- conservation values through B.C. Parks. While I appreciate the member's point about the tim- munication. It's going to be very interesting when the ber supply and the concern with mountain pine beetle press release goes out into the Cariboo-Chilcotin — if and the mid-term timber supply challenges that we face, this bill passes — that 17 new parks are going to be I would say that we have looked at these areas and made formed and fi ve new class A parks are going to be ex- determinations based on recreational values, conserva- panded, when the Timber Supply Committee has just tion values. My understanding from talking to staff is been through the area. that there are not high timber values in the areas that One of the questions that was in that dialogue was: are designated. can we lift constraints from the land base? Can we make more of the land base available for timber that is cur- B. Simpson: I appreciate the minister's comments rently constrained? Of course, there was a debate with- about timber values. As I looked at the area and once I in that committee at one point about whether existing saw the maps…. I know where those areas are. But I think parks would be on the table or not. Th at had to be clari- there is a position. I take the minister's point. It's a little fi ed. Th ere was some discussion about the possibility of presumptive of me about the outcome of the election. Tweedsmuir being encroached upon in order to get ac- Who knows who will form government — whether there cess to more timber. will be a fundamental change in circumstances, just now? I wonder if the minister, just at a macro level, could [1505] answer the question of why now when we have a lot of I think the point that remains is that the member for issues spinning out there about cumulative impact. We Cariboo-Chilcotin was very much vested in the Cariboo- have a lot of issues spinning about the future of the tim- Chilcotin land use planning process. To say that that was ber supply, the future of the land base. Why now? Why, a hot environment is an understatement. I was involved in the 11th hour of this government, in a short fi ve-week on the periphery, because I was a founding member of session, are we getting this act and going to be having the Fraser Basin Management Council and was asked to new parks established in the Quesnel area and through- sit in on a number of the meetings that took place lead- out the Cariboo-Chilcotin — 17 new class A parks and ing up to the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan. fi ve additions to existing class A parks? At that time, the mountain pine beetle wasn't on the Maybe the minister could just give us a context for horizon. At that time, we didn't have the kind of under- why this should be done now when all those questions standing of climate change implications that we have now. are out there. At that time, we hadn't experienced some of the catas- Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13345

trophic fi re events that we have now. Hon. T. Lake: As the member knows, the Forests, And at that time, there was a concern that there was Lands and Natural Resource Operations Ministry is re- an encroachment on the land base, a significant en- sponsible for the land use plans. Th ese goal 2 areas were croachment on the land base, that would exclude a a recommendation from the land use plan, which the whole bunch of other values, to the point that I was ac- member described and I also described in terms of the tually hired as a result of the burning in effi gy of Stephen extensive consultation that is carried out. Th e land use Owen in Williams Lake, when he attempted to present plan tries to balance the needs of the area in terms of the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan in Williams Lake. conservation values, forestry values and mining values. I was asked to facilitate the Quesnel version of that and Th at lens is put on it. found myself squarely in the hot seat as an independent, What the member, I think, is getting at is that the plan neutral facilitator trying to get Mr. Owen his voice to has taken a long time to get to this stage. Th e member is, speak to that plan. I guess, recommending that we not go forward with this Nevertheless, I would argue that plan has taken root. important step of the plan because things have changed Again, the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin can speak to in that time — things related to the mountain pine bee- it herself, but it has taken root. Th ere is some ownership tle, which can be correlated to climate change. I guess I of that plan. would say, from a ministry point of view, that to me it's But what was uncovered during the timber supply more important than ever that we consider ecological in- review process — and I'm sure the Minister of FLNRO tegrity and climate change mitigation when we are look- could speak to this himself — is that people weren't sure ing at land use planning and the way we use the land base what the status of that plan was. So while we have a piece across British Columbia. of legislation in front of us just now that is going to at- Rather than start at the beginning again and 20 years tempt to fi nish that plan off , if you will, to add the addi- later wonder if we're still going to get these parks put in tional park areas, there are questions out there about to complete the land use plan — I think that would be whether the other values, the other protections, the other seen as a bit frustrating for many people in that area. I set-aside areas, the viewscapes, the mineral reserves…. guess the member is advocating that we start from square Th ere's a huge issue in the Horsefl y area, whether min- one, and I would argue that the importance of establish- eral reserve areas are actually open for mineral extraction. ing certainty on the land base and providing for the eco- What the Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Oper- logical integrity of the area is more important than ever. ations Ministry articulated to the government in advance of the Timber Supply Committee work was that they B. Simpson: Just as the minister indicated that maybe needed the capacity to go back and visit the plan writ I was being presumptive of the election outcome, I think large. Not just the parks, but the entire plan. the minister is being presumptive of what it is I'm try- Where are we at on actually achieving visual qualities, ing to do here. Th e question I asked the minister is: was actually achieving habitat restrictions, actually achiev- he given an update on the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use ing mineral reserves? Where are we at with all of the plan writ large? values that are there, including the old-growth manage- I'm not saying that we go back and start a brand-new ment zones, some of which are by regulation and some table and start a brand-new process. Okay? Th at's not of which the FLNRO staff are free to move. what I'm saying. But there are lots of questions out there, My question to the minister is…. Th is is almost 20 and they were asked through FLNRO staff . Th e minister years. It's 20 years in the making. It is very close to an is not wrong about that, but surely we can end this. It's election. We didn't have a fall session, so this couldn't not my responsibility — fi nger-pointing. Th at's under be done in the fall session, but we've had a long period FLNRO. It's not me. of time. If we're going to add parks that are part of the Cariboo- I see nothing in the briefi ng document that gives me Chilcotin land use plan, it seems prudent to me that the indication that there was something imminent or recent question is asked by the minister of a fellow colleague to catalyze this into having to happen now — within the in cabinet: what's the status of the plan writ large? If the context of not understanding what's happening with the minister is arguing that biodiversity protection and cer- whole Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan writ large. tainty on the land base — all of the things that that plan So my question to the minister is this. Has there been was supposed to achieve — are still important today, I a comprehensive assessment of the status of the Cariboo- would think that you would want an answer to the ques- Chilcotin land use plan that has been done as a context tion of where we're at with the rest of the plan. for completing the parks section of the plan? Do we know As the briefi ng document I was provided with…. And what's happened with the rest of the areas that are in that as the minister is correctly stating, this is 0.25 percent of plan? Has it been updated? And does a status report exist the planning land base. It's a small sliver. I've looked at the in his ministry or in FLNRO about the status of CCLUP? maps. Th ey aren't major timber-harvesting areas. Th at's [1510] not the issue, and I'll get into some of the questions. 13346 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

Th e question is, though, that that whole area has mas- Hon. T. Lake: Th e opportunity for the public to pro- sive questions about the status of the Cariboo-Chilcotin vide comment was through local newspaper adver- land use plan writ large. To make an announcement at tisements in January of 2011. Notices were placed in this juncture with those questions spinning, with Forests, newspapers — 100 Mile House, Williams Lake and Lands and Natural Resource Operations managers try- Quesnel. Public comment period was 30 days from the ing to get resources to revisit the plan writ large and with date of publication, until March 14. Maps were available the Timber Supply Committee having just been through for all those members of the public that wanted to view that area saying, "Can we unencumber the land base?" — them — in fact, were mailed out to people who requested. that's where the struggle will come from. Th ere's a com- I can't say whether there was a town hall meeting, if munications part of this. that's what the member is asking, in the town of Likely, My question straight-up to the minister was: is he but the media in these centres, I believe, cover that re- aware — yes or no — of whether we have actually re- gion. So the public were notifi ed, and if they wanted visited and updated the status of the Cariboo-Chilcotin more information, including the maps, those were made land use plan whole? available.

Hon. T. Lake: As the member acknowledged, this is a B. Simpson: Th is is the same kind of public consul- very small part of the land base, 0.25 percent, so we're not tation that's proposed in Bill 8. It's called passive pub- talking about sterilizing large areas of economic activity lic consultation. Maps are made available. In the case of — quite the contrary. Th e member seems to imply that what we're going to see later on, you don't even have to there has been no consultation or no discussion about advertise that it's out there. this process for a long time, when in fact extensive con- One of the things I noted and raised with the minis- sultation with local communities, stakeholders and First ter's staff is that the reference point in the briefi ng note to Nations occurred from 2000 right through until 2012, where these parks are is all Quesnel and Williams Lake. Yet there are distinct communities where these parks are which is fairly recent. going to be. [1515] As I noted to staff in the case of Titetown park, which Stakeholder consultations occurred on the goal 2 is one of the proposed parks — which we'll get to in a candidate areas through the subregional sustainable re- minute because, of course, the Nazko First Nation have source management plans and through communications questions about that park — there's actually a Cariboo at the Cariboo Chilcotin Regional Resource Committee. regional district subdivision in the middle of nowhere, Th e Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Titetown, that I informed your staff is the subdivision Operations chairs the environment and land use commit- that would not evacuate a couple of years ago when there tee, of which I am the vice-chair, and these goal 2 addi- was a fi re encroaching on them. Th e park that is being tions were fully discussed at the environment and land proposed is directly across from them, and the commun- use committee, so they've been fully canvassed with the ity of Nazko is right in that area. ministry he is referring to. I think this has been, even in my riding, a kind of an urban-centric notifi cation-advertisement process that B. Simpson: I'll answer my own question that I asked didn't engage the communities at all. I would look for- the minister. Th e answer to the question is: no, there ward to working with whoever is in government next to hasn't been an update in the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use make sure the maps and that are brought out to the ap- plan. Quite frankly, that work needs to get done. Th ere propriate communities — Likely, Beaver Valley, Big Lake, has not been that work done. the Nazko, etc. — to show them what the maps are of Let's come to this extensive consultation. Th e minister these new parks, because it will impact all of those com- is indicating in the briefi ng, and the briefi ng note indi- munities. I think they also have input — and I'll get into cates, extensive consultations up through 2012. Have this in a minute — as to the best utilization of that. there been any public meetings at all with the maps for So the extensive consultation, as I see it, in the briefi ng these areas? note and in the minister's words, is predominantly either For example, one of the proposed areas is a bunch of in-house consultation with government staff or some of foreshore areas in Quesnel Lake. Has the community of the sub-regional planning consultation that is going on. Likely been given that map, has the community of Likely [1520] been invited to a town hall meeting to look at those fore- Th ere wasn't really the community consultation where shore areas, and has the community of Likely had any these pieces of land are going to be turned into parks, input into whether those are the right areas, implications and I think that's a shortcoming of the process. It doesn't for those areas, whatever? Has there been a meeting in mean it can't be fi xed and can't be rectifi ed, but it is a Likely with that map put up on a wall, inviting feedback shortcoming in the process. from the people of Likely? For clarifi cation — and I did go into this with staff — Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13347 why introduce it in a bill? Th e government could do this excluded existing mineral tenures from the boundaries by order-in-council. It could do class A parks by order- of the protected areas. Now, when mineral tenures cease in-council. Why introduce it as a bill? What is the twist, if to exist under the Mineral Tenure Act, the province may you will — for the public record — that introducing it as a look to include that land within the boundaries. But at schedule D addition, I believe it is, gets us in the Cariboo this time if there's an existing tenure, they are not includ- a freedom that we wouldn't get otherwise? ed in the boundaries of the parks. And all of the sites have no-registration reserves under the Mineral Tenure Act in Hon. T. Lake: Staff has generously provided me with place to prevent additional staking. an explanation of the Byzantine workings of govern- [1525] ment. Th ere are two ways to establish class A parks. One is through placing the park in a schedule to the Protected B. Simpson: Again, this is an area, I think, of com- Areas of British Columbia Act, and one, as the member munications to that area so that there isn't a big backlash. mentioned, is by order-in-council under the Park Act. As the minister is probably well aware, there's hypersensi- We are going through the Protected Areas of British tivity about small claims mining, placer mining in that Columbia Act in the legislative process here. Th e reason area. Th e communications around the establishment of for that is that the majority of the sites being established these parks should address that. in the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan's goal 2 process With that in mind, I want to be crystal-clear. Again, have grazing activity. Th ey're being placed in schedule because I use the public record, I know there was a bit D of the Protected Areas of British Columbia Act so that of back-and-forth there between the ministers about the enabling provisions of section 30 of the act apply, to me asking questions I already know the answers to — allow continuation of those grazing activities. If we were or think I do. It's because I can use the minister's state- to use the OIC process, those grazing activities would not ments to then communicate back to the Cariboo Mining be allowed to continue. Association or the Cattlemen's Association what they're already going to ask me. B. Simpson: I was deliberate in asking the question With that in mind, I do need a clarifi cation on placer that way. Th e same explanation was given to me by staff specifi cally. Will this encumber or restrict placer over of why not by order-in-council, why we're doing it this and above any of the freedoms that they have just now? way. Again, just by way of free advice to the minister, the Will it add another portion of the land base that they're reason I raised it is because I know the biggest push-back restricted from that they might otherwise be able to get we will get in those areas is on whether or not grazing to if these parks did not exist? leases have been extinguished. It would be good if part of the communication really Hon. T. Lake: I do appreciate, actually, the member's highlights that, because it will save the government a lot questions and getting it on the record. I also thank him of grief in having to deal with questions about whether for his advice in terms of counteracting some of the con- grazing has been extinguished or not. Th at's the reason cerns that are unnecessarily raised when something like for raising that and getting it on the public record. this occurs. Staff will be certain to include that in our The other area…. The minister was asked some communications around what we're doing here. questions around mineral claims here. Of course, the To the member's question, the only restriction is that Cariboo-Chilcotin region, the Cariboo in particu- there will be no new staking allowed in the boundaries lar, has the highest concentration of placer mining in of the park, but in terms of the existing claims that are British Columbia. I've already asked some questions in on the peripheries of the park, those will be unaff ected. question period about some issues around Ministry of Environment and Ministry of Energy and Mines and the B. Simpson: Just fi nishing these general questions, has application of the law relative to placer. But my under- staff or the minister's offi ce had any direct communica- standing is that in the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan tions with the Cariboo Mining Association or any of the there were areas that were for free mining and that were cattlemen's associations in the area where these parks open for placer along streams, etc. will be established? For the minister: I want to come down to Cariboo North in a minute here, but are any of the parks in the Hon. T. Lake: Th rough the land use planning process, Cariboo-Chilcotin area — any of those 17 new parks and the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource the extension of the fi ve — going to extinguish any min- Operations was in contact with organizations repre- eral claims, or do they encumber or preclude any placer senting grazing interests and mining interests. I'm sorry activities that currently are allowed? I can't answer whether or not those specifi c organizations were part of those consultations, but I'm told that organ- Hon. T. Lake: Th e short answer is no. Th ere are no izations representing grazing interests and mining inter- mineral tenures that are within the boundaries. We've ests were part of the planning process through Forests, 13348 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

Lands and Natural Resource Operations. Th ere would be consultations to look at what would make sense for high-value recreation areas — where a B. Simpson: Again, if the minister wants to take us boat launch may be feasible, where camping sites may be up on it, we have a pretty extensive stakeholders list, so located — versus other areas that would be left for a more we could help with some of the communications to the conservation-minded approach to the park. Th at's done smaller organizations. through the management plans, which are very much a Oft en in that area there's a disconnect between the public process, and we look forward to conducting those kind of umbrella organizations and the splinter organ- for these parks that we're adding. izations in the South Cariboo area. For example, there's the Cariboo Cattlemen's Association, but there's the Rose B. Simpson: Hopefully, in that level of consultation — Lake Livestock Association, and there's the Horsefl y live- and I raised this with the staff — the local communities stock association, etc. Sometimes the communication are actually not Quesnel and Williams Lake; they're the isn't that clean, so I'd be happy to help with any of the local communities, because they're the ones that will give communications forward on this to clarify those two you the best insight. particular points. With that in mind, I'd like to deal with some questions By way of a general question, what resources come around the specifi c parks. Th ere are fi ve new parks in the with class A park designation? Th e minister knows there Cariboo North riding. Th e fi rst one I want to deal with are questions out there about whether or not we're put- — and I guess I'm dealing with them in alphabetical or- ting adequate resources into the existing parks system. der, as staff had presented them to me — is the Beaver I will say, and for the public record, when I paddled Valley park. Th at's a small area that's in what is a chain the Bowron Lake this fall on my annual paddle around of streams and lakes. there with my buddies, I was thrilled to see the new shel- I just want to be clear, again on the public record, that ters that went in there. Th ey are brilliant; they're gorgeous. the Beaver Valley park is not in the proposed Williams [1530] Lake and Williams Lake Indian Band community forest I know that that was a signifi cant capital investment in that is currently working its way through the process. I the park and is much appreciated. But I think the minister see the Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource would also say that things are tight, so I think it's important Operations smile with me as we try and stickhandle that — for me, at least — to be able to communicate to people thing. what it means when we designate these parks. Th e general Is that park in the boundaries of the proposed Williams answer to that question is important when we get to things Lake and Williams Lake Indian Band community forest like the new Quesnel Lake park or the Dragon Mountain — yes or no? park. I will have specifi c questions about that. Will the class A park designation come with some re- Hon. T. Lake: No. sources to do some tourism or recreational development on the physical land that's designated as a park? B. Simpson: Let's go to the Dragon Mountain park, again for clarifi cation. I had indicated to your staff — and Hon. T. Lake: I appreciate the member's willingness for the minister's edifi cation — that Dragon Mountain to assist in communicating with constituents about how is in the viewscape of most of the upper subdivisions in the actions of government may aff ect them. Th ank you the Quesnel area. It has long been an area of concern for for that. residents. As the member mentioned, we've made some tremen- I was actually involved back in '92-93, I think, as a fa- dous investments in parks throughout British Columbia. cilitator for a potential community forest over that area. Th e capital program actually received a 27 percent in- Th e dispute around that, even in the preliminary stages, crease in the budget this prior year. Th at will continue on was so hot that we were having a meeting at the local for future years. Th e Bowron Lake investment is a good high school and I had so many phone calls going into example of that. the meeting that I went into their theatre room and got I just want to take the opportunity to remind the mem- a World War II fl ak jacket and helmet to come out and ber that of all the parks and protected areas we have, only facilitate the meeting. 2 percent of those areas actually have a human footprint [1535] on them. While we're adding large areas, the actual use Th at's just to give you context. Th at is in everybody's on a regular basis by visitors is fairly small. viewscape, and it is a hot area for people's concern. I think Having said that, for a class A park, before infrastruc- the designation of that area is the right area in terms of ture is put into the park there would be a management where that's situated, from looking at the map. Th e back plan, consulting with the local communities. I believe side of the mountain, I think, is going to be asked for, for that around Quesnel Lake area there are fi ve diff erent a community forest by the city of Quesnel. Th at's in due areas. process just now. Where it is located, there's not high Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13349

timber value, and it is the lion's share of the viewscape. know from experience that if mountain bike trails are Th e thing I want to raise for the minister, though, in not done well, they can cause signifi cant erosion. Th e that case — and I want it on the record — is that that is nature of that land base lends itself to that, so it is abso- also a heavy-use mountain bike area already. Th e road is lutely appropriate that planning be done and that some used to go up to the repeat towers, the cell towers, as the constraints be put on where those trails are built and to mountain bikers go up there. Previously, they used to go what standards. down the back side, so it wouldn't be in the park. But now Th at's great, but it raises a question. Th e minister has what they've developed are trails off that road. I'd let the indicated, twice now, a planning process. What does the minister speak to the status of the road in the park. Th at minister see as the time frame for when this next level of should be clarifi ed on the public record. planning would occur? In the case of Dragon Mountain And then, what would happen to the trails that are park, for example, the community would be engaged there once this gets a park designation? Th ere is a pretty in the planning for that park. I'm assuming designa- sophisticated network of mountain bike trails already tion occurs aft er this act becomes law — in which case, developed in there. What would happen to those? Th e then, when do we actually get into some kind of plan- minister should know that there's sensitivity in that area ning process? because of a situation that occurred in Williams Lake [1540] where FLNRO decommissioned a lot of mountain bike trails that a lot of time and energy and community eff ort Hon. T. Lake: Th ere will be sort of a priority to the had been put into. It caused a huge uproar. process of conducting the management plan. Th ose parks that are closer to population centres, that have a higher [D. Black in the chair.] use, that have a history, as the member has indicated, of confl ict of use, those that may require more capital I would hate to see a similar situation occur just be- investment in terms of infrastructure would be higher cause of a park designation here. So could the minister up the list to get to the management plans earlier. Th at clarify the status of the road and what might happen to should be about a six- to 12-month process, starting in those trails once the park designation occurs? early summer.

Hon. T. Lake: I'm very well aware of the type of issue the B. Simpson: For what it's worth, my pitch on the fi ve member describes, coming from the mountain-biking cap- that we've got in the Quesnel area would be Dragon ital of the world — Kamloops, British Columbia — where Mountain and Quesnel Lake — those two. And we'll we experience similar clashes between mountain bike use talk about Quesnel Lake in a minute. Th e others, I think, and other use. It can be controversial, for sure. would not have the same kind of focus those two would Just to clarify about the road, the road is not in the have. park. It's excluded from the park. Let's move on to Long Creek park. Staff clarifi ed for In terms of existing trails and how the park would be me, because that's in the middle of nowhere…. I think used, that's where the park management planning process it's off a road we call Ditch Road that connects Horsefl y comes in. We would consult with the local community. and Likely together. My understanding is that it's got a Of course, mountain biking is a very popular recreation- caribou habitat saltlick in that area that I wasn't aware al activity that brings a lot of people into parks. Kenna of. So it's kind of interesting that there's a protection Cartwright Park in Kamloops is one that I'm very fam- there for that. iliar with and, I think, in many ways resembles Dragon Let's go to Quesnel Lake park. In both the case of Long Mountain park in its use and its viewscapes. Creek park and Quesnel Lake park there are the explicit Th ere would be a planning process to look at what ac- exclusions of existing mineral titles, and the maps are tivities would be appropriate for the park. High recrea- drawn around that. I think that's going to be helpful to tional values like mountain biking would be taken into explain that to people. With respect to Quesnel Lake account in that planning process. I'm hopeful that the park, as I indicated to staff during the briefi ng, Quesnel community would come together with Parks to decide on Lake has become a hypersensitive area. Th at, I think, is how those existing trails would be used, if there are other important for the minister to understand. opportunities for mountain biking or if there are areas Above Quesnel Lake is the proposed Spanish Mountain that should be off -limits to mountain biking to preserve Gold. Th ere are a couple of small lakes up there that are other qualities. But that's very much a consultative pro- potential targets for the tailings ponds, but there is con- cess through the planning of the park management plan. cern about the leachate and the drawdown into Quesnel Lake. Mount Polley has an amendment to their effl uent B. Simpson: I appreciate that. I think the minister is permit that would see some overfl ow go into a creek that right. Th ere is a similarity to the park in the Kamloops goes into Quesnel Lake. area — both viewscape and heavy use. Of course, we Th ere is a proposal by an IPP to put forward…. I don't 13350 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

understand what they are talking about, but they would diff erent parks in the Quesnel Lake area. As mentioned, draw out of Quesnel Lake, put water up into the higher this would be one of our higher-priority parks in terms of lakes and then run it down a tube back through a turbine, getting to the management plan earlier rather than later. back into Quesnel Lake. As a consequence of all of that activity, there is a hyper- B. Simpson: Th e last park, I think, is the most diffi cult sensitivity around Quesnel Lake, and I do think the one of the ones that are in Cariboo North. I think the community of Likely needs to be consulted about this as park is in an interesting spot. As I told staff , as an avid quickly as possible. kayaker, I wasn't aware that that lake actually did what it Th ere's another reason for that, and that is that Likely did in terms of going into streams and bigger openings, is trying to expand its opportunities for tourism. Th e etc. I got chastised by one of your staff for being presump- minister may know there's a class C park — Cedar Creek tive that my wife and I would do a trip there this summer, park — in Likely that is actually managed by the com- but I think we will. munity. So that community has a very good track record Th e problem, of course, with Titetown is the Nazko of managing a class C park. Th ey know how to do it. Th ey First Nations have expressed concerns about the pos- know both how to manage it and make money off of it. itioning of that park. I'd like, again on the public record, Where the foreshore parts of this are, it looks to me, the minister to speak to the nature of the consultations are strategic areas that would allow that community to that the government has had with Nazko, the status of develop a kayaking and canoeing adventure circuit. Th e those consultations and what further communications lake is a Y-shape. As it stands just now, most people go are going to occur with Nazko about their expressed to a small lake that is at the split. Th ey camp there, and concerns. then they daytrip out of there, up the two arms. Th e way that these parks are designated, it actually looks like you Hon. T. Lake: Between May of 2010 and March of 2011 could create a circuit around the whole lake if it's de- eight letters or e-mails requesting input or providing in- veloped well. formation regarding the Titetown proposal were sent [1545] to the Nazko First Nation. Also an invitation was sent My only comment on this — I know it's a long- to Nazko representatives for a site visit to the Titetown winded one — to the minister on the public record is: area with B.C. Parks staff . At that time, there was limited I think there is a great partnership there with the com- response but no opposition to the area moving forward munity of Likely. Th ey can use their community forest as a park. money — and they do — for co-development projects. We have received a letter of concern from Nazko. I Th ey have an annual festival now that has really grown understand they have a new chief and council. We are — a canoe and kayak festival in September. I think it very interested in working with the Nazko First Nations would be an ideal opportunity for another area of our to develop a collaborative management approach to the province with small parcels of land as are in this park park. So certainly interested and have shared interests to develop a lot of economic activity. with the Nazko on this park and would be more than If I could, on the record, just have the minister indi- willing to sit down with the First Nation on a collabora- cate that he'd be willing to have staff go to that commun- tive management strategy. ity on a priority basis and have a conversation with them [1550] about the options. B. Simpson: Th e minister sort of alluded to it, but Hon. T. Lake: Th e member is quite right to point out during the recent time that this communication has oc- the strategic locations of the foreshore areas of these fi ve curred, as the minister has already indicated, there was parcels on Quesnel Lake. I think it's a testament to the some pretty signifi cant restructuring going on within the planning process that has been taking quite a while, but Nazko Band and council — a change in the chief admin- now we're fi nally at the culmination here today. istrative offi cer and various other things. Th ey've also got I want to take the opportunity to thank the volunteer a lot on the go because they're heavy into the treaty pro- members of the management board of Cedar Creek park cess. In fact, I was just talking to the Minister of MARR and the residents of the Likely area, because it really is about waiting for a Treasury Board completion of an of- volunteers that make B.C. parks what they are. We have fer of land and cash to them to advance that to an AIP. volunteers across the province that do an endless amount I would hate to see anything with this small parcel of of work protecting the ecosystems and working on trails. land interfere with the progress that we're making with We've just developed a volunteer strategy to support Nazko. You know, we can't take it out of the bill. I don't those volunteers. want to put forward an amendment saying that this one Yes, in fact, the member is quite correct. Th is could be may have to sort of be put aside for a little bit. But I'm a Bowron Lake kind of adventure, where you could do heartened by the minister's comments, and I think it is a canoe expedition and touch on all the fi ve areas of the important to communicate with the Nazko over that. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13351

Th e other thing, of course, as I indicated to staff , is that C. Trevena: It's always good to see a new park estab- there is a small subdivision there with people who face lished. I would like to ask the minister a few questions directly to that park. My offi ce would be happy to help about the Denman Island park being established, ob- to communicate to that group of individuals, because we viously, on Denman Island, which is just south of the didn't know a subdivision existed there until the fi re hap- islands that I represent. pened. We can communicate there. [1605] With that, Madam Speaker, my last question to the I wondered if the minister could explain a little just minister. Is the Titetown area that's proposed…? Is the on how this park was put together. I understand that it minister aware of whether or not that's in the land pro- was a result of private land acquisition and land transfers. posal area that's before MARR and, supposedly, going to I was very interested to hear from the minister how the Treasury Board? Are the two of them the same? process went. As the minister knows — not just for this park, but for other parks that we're trying to establish in Hon. T. Lake: Although I'm not part of that process, the province, including on Quadra Island — we're look- my understanding is that it has been raised as an area ing at land acquisition and just seeing how it has worked of interest. It's not unusual, actually, when we do in- for Denman Island. cremental treaty agreements involving land, that there would be some parks or conservancies that formed Hon. T. Lake: To the member, she and I have dis- part of that package. Certainly, it could be an oppor- cussed this before, because I know the member is keenly tunity, but I don't know if this particular park has been interested in this, as well as other park initiatives in her involved in those discussions. Certainly, there is that constituency. potential. Th is was a very interesting assembly and process that [1555-1600] we went through to establish this park. In fact, it was the recipient of the Premier's Innovation Award in 2011, with Section 4 approved on the following division: parks staff working with private landowners, with con- servation organizations and, also, carbon off set compan- YEAS — 67 ies like ERA and the Forest Carbon Group. So the 552 hectares were assembled through a public- Th omson Yap Sultan private partnership that did involve land donations, Stilwell Yamamoto Chong Crown land transfers and the transfer of local develop- Lake Letnick Stewart ment rights, as well as, as I mentioned, carbon seques- Abbott Barnett Lee tration. McNeil Hawes Lekstrom So 492 hectares of private land was acquired. Four Bloy Krueger Cantelon hundred hectares are included in the new park, and 152 McIntyre Reid Cadieux hectares of Crown land will also be included in the park. Polak Bell de Jong Th e remaining 92 hectares of private lands were acquired, Clark Coleman Bond and they're proposed to be established as a protected area MacDiarmid McRae Bennett under the Environment and Land Use Act. Associated Hansen Horne Th ornthwaite with this land assembly initiative, the administration of Dalton Hogg Hayer 52 hectares of Crown land has been transferred to B.C. Les Howard Corrigan Parks to be added, also, to Boyle Point Park. Horgan Farnworth Lali Th is was, I think, one of these interesting, innovative Popham Austin Conroy mechanisms of bringing people together that have shared Brar D. Routley Huntington interests, where we can see the new, emerging market of Pimm Foster Hammell the value of carbon sequestration, adding value to al- low us to establish a park for conservation purposes. As Trevena Elmore Mungall I mentioned, it was recognized with the Premier's award Chandra Herbert Krog Trasolini in 2011. Simons O'Mahony Macdonald Coons Chouhan B. Simpson C. Trevena: I'd like to ask the minister a little bit more Coell Th orne Gentner about the carbon off set program — how that actually Sather worked. I know it's quite a new idea for establishing parks. It seems a very sensible idea for establishing parks — that NAYS — 1 you can put companies' carbon off sets against the parks Rustad that then are going to be protected. It has worked here; it isn't working in other areas. On section 5. I'd just like to know how the minister made sure it 13352 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

could work here, when we are having trouble in other ervation of the ecological base in British Columbia either areas — specifi cally, as I understand it, the Small Inlet– through private lands that are managed by trusts, by pub- Waiatt Bay park up on Quadra. lic land that is either in conservancies or even in parks.

Hon. T. Lake: Th e use of carbon off sets is relatively C. Trevena: Part of the parcel of the land was Crown new, as the member knows, through our carbon-neutral land and land transfers. I wonder if the minister could government initiative. Th e Pacifi c Carbon Trust is in the say…. I think he mentioned 152 hectares of Crown land. business of purchasing off sets for the amount of green- I just wanted confirmation on that. When we're do- house gases that are left at the end of eff orts to reduce ing Crown land transfers — was the ministry looking GHGs in the public sector. Th ere are diff erent means of at acre for acre or the equivalent values in the diff erent acquiring those off sets, one of which is through carbon areas of forest? sequestration through forestry initiatives. In other words, instead of removing forest timber, we can preserve it. Hon. T. Lake: Just to clarify. Th is isn't a Crown land Th en the carbon that is incrementally sequestered by that transfer. It simply is moving Crown land into the park, initiative is counted against the carbon off set. so there's no exchange of values. It's essentially mov- [1610] ing from the purview of Forests, Lands and Natural So in this case we relied on ERA Carbon Off sets Ltd. Resource Operations into our ministry through inclu- and the Forest Carbon Group to verify that this met the sion in the park. criteria of additionality that is required for the carbon off - set program. So these are third-party verifi ers that look C. Trevena: So there has been no exchange of pri- at the plan and assess whether or not this meets the test vate lands for Crown lands elsewhere. It's just the trans- of additionality. Th en that money can be put towards the fer of Crown lands into the park. Again, I'm just using purchase of the land, which occurred in this case. the example of trying to put together a little piece of the Th e member mentioned Waiatt Bay and Small Inlet puzzle that we're seeing up on Quadra, where we're try- Park on Quadra. Th at certainly is in discussion as part ing to do a bit of a land exchange with private lands and of the piece of the puzzle for putting that land assem- with Crown land — getting that involved as well. So I bly together as well. It is a relatively small portion, as just wanted to see the comparison and where that land the member probably appreciates. At probably an aver- is coming from. age price of $10 to $12 a tonne over a 100-year period, it [1615] will not create, on a small tract of land, a large enough amount of money to make that purchase easily accom- Hon. T. Lake: As I mentioned, in this situation there plished at this time. was no transfer of land from the Crown to private land We are continuing with that initiative, looking for part- holder in exchange. However, that is a tool that can be ners, using carbon off sets as a small piece of the puzzle used and, in fact, in the case of Quadra Island, one that of assembly of that land as well. is being looked at. If a private land owner donates or exchanges land that can be put into a park, then other C. Trevena: I thank the minister for this. Th is is ob- pieces of Crown land elsewhere that may be of value to viously…. Th e Denman Island park was the fi rst time that that private land owner would be considered as part of the carbon off sets have been used for the acquisition of a the exchange. Th at is a mechanism that can be used and park. No, the minister is shaking his head. will be looked at in the Quadra Island situation. What I'm wondering is if there is now a sort of struc- ture in place that can be used for the possibility of other C. Trevena: I wondered if the minister could give me parks, other conservation areas — for how the ministry a sense of how long it took to get together the pieces of would like to proceed using carbon off sets. land for the park. Obviously it is quite complex, and there are lots of diff erent aspects of bringing in diff erent people Hon. T. Lake: Well, it is, I think, a tool that we and diff erent players, so just how long it has taken to get have in our toolbox. Th e member may be aware of the from idea to completion? Darkwoods initiative, which essentially was private land in the Kootenays that was preserved from forestry oper- Hon. T. Lake: I believe the process in this case started ations through the use of carbon off sets. Th e coastal First around 2007. Th e land was acquired in 2010, and here Nations certainly have been looking at initiatives around we are today, 2013, culminating with the inclusion in the carbon off sets and the Great Bear rainforest. We've heard park. I think the point the member is perhaps trying to a lot about that, and that represents, I think, a large op- make is that it can take a long time to get some of these portunity around carbon off sets through changing for- deals done. Th e more complicated they are, and the less est practices. resources available to government, sometimes the longer So yes, it is, I think, an emerging way of fi nancing pres- the journey is. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13353

In the case of Quadra, it has been, I understand, the the money. Th ey were told that they couldn't get the park better part of a decade or more. It is a little bit more com- without making substantial contributions. plicated. Again, with the resources of government chal- I'd like to ask the minister: how come the people of lenged in the particular fi scal period we fi nd ourselves, it Denman Island weren't asked, similarly, to make a simi- does make it more of a challenge, because then you have lar contribution? Or could the minister conceive of look- to look for those other opportunities involving things ing at the money from Quadra as…? Basically, why did like Crown land transfers, which are always a lot more one have to donate and the other didn't have to donate? complicated than outright purchases. Hon. T. Lake: Each land acquisition is different. C. Trevena: I think the people on the island can read Th ere's not a one-size-fi ts-all approach. In this particu- into it that it has taken six years for this one to come from lar instance, the provincial government cash donation start to fi nish, and it's at least 16 years for the Small Inlet– was $232,000 — I would say a very, very good deal for Waiatt Bay one. We're still working on it. the taxpayer. Th ere was a private landowner that donat- One of the questions I have for the minister is what the ed $1.4 million. Th at's a signifi cant contribution by any cost of putting together this park was. How much is it? measure. When these projects are examined, certainly, if there is a contribution, either through an individual or Hon. T. Lake: As part of this package, we were looking a community group, it helps the process — particularly at the Cariboo-Chilcotin land use plan, which was almost at times when the government is challenged in terms of 20 years in the making. It sometimes does take a while to the revenues that the taxpayers send to it. get these complicated land use plans fi nished. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule about who Th e purchase price of the private lands was $6.7 mil- pays what. It's a matter of local interest and the contri- lion. Th e private land owner donated $1.4 million worth bution that the taxpayers can aff ord to make on behalf of of land. Th e provincial government made a $232,000 government. In this case we had a signifi cant single con- cash contribution and transferred land development tribution, and in the case of Quadra, a signifi cant com- rights on parcels of Crown land, and those were valued munity contribution. Both are important. at $3.9 million, to the company for future residential de- velopment elsewhere. And $1.2 million was provided to Th e Chair: Member for Vancouver Island North. North Denman Lands Inc. through a third-party carbon off sets agreement, as I mentioned, with ERA Carbon C. Trevena: Almost, Madam Chair. Th at's federal, but Off sets and the Forest Carbon Group. Th e total price that's okay. Your former colleague Catherine. was $6.7 million. [1620] Th e Chair: Sorry, Member.

C. Trevena: I'd like to ask the minister: what propor- C. Trevena: I know we're talking about the Denman tion of that came from local fundraising? park, but there are similarities. It's the parallels that I'm interested in. I've got to say that I'm very proud of the Hon. T. Lake: In this particular instance, the private people of Quadra Island — to have raised that amount landowner donated $1.4 million worth of land, but there of money in such a short time. Th ey're very determined was no sort of community-organized contribution rais- to make sure this park works. ing money. Th e member knows that on Quadra Island Partly, it is now in memory of the woman who start- there has been considerable community eff ort to raise ed getting the parks moving on Quadra Island, Judy money in that eff ort. Th at certainly is very helpful. Leicester, who, very sadly, died very suddenly last year. As is oft en the case in any type of land purchase or Th ere has been a lot of emotion and a lot of sense that infrastructure contribution, if the local community is we're going to get it done for her. She got the other parks very invested, government always is more interested in going with a couple of other people, and we're going to making that happen, because it meets the needs of the lo- get this one done because of Judy. Th at's one of the rea- cal community. We certainly thank the people that have sons, I think, that we were actually able to get that fi nal been contributing to the Quadra Island eff ort. push on money. [1625] C. Trevena: I mean, the people of Quadra have man- But I did want to ask one last thing on the $232,000 aged to raise an extraordinary $200,000 for the park. It's provincial contribution to this park. I wondered if the not out of the desire, so much, to help add to the coff ers minister could tell me what portion that is of the parks- of the provincial government and carry on assisting by — acquisition budget for the year. as well as paying their now-increased ferry fares and their increased MSP and everything else — then volunteering Hon. T. Lake: As the member well knows, the area money up to help fund a park. Th ey were asked to raise of parks and protected areas in the province of British 13354 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

Columbia exceeds 14½ percent of the total area of British acquisition. Columbia — far in excess of the United Nations rec- ommended levels of conservation. As the member also Hon. T. Lake: To the member: when you were re- knows, there is some discussion around the balance that counting your childhood, I said I thought the members we strike between the formation of more parks and pro- on that side of the House didn't like to talk about the tected areas versus the development of the land base for '90s anymore. economic purposes. Anyway, in the Chickadee Lake area there are some We don't have an ongoing land acquisition budget. properties that have water access, in terms of obtaining We've met the targets in terms of the amount of land water, and those licences will be unaff ected. that we want to have in parks and protected areas, but [1630] we always look for opportunities as they present them- selves through treaty discussions, other private land ac- S. Chandra Herbert: No, the '90s were a great time. quisitions. When necessary, we can use our parks capital I had a lot of great times in the '90s. Yeah, I had a lot of budget to help us out with land acquisition as well. good times in the '90s. I had slightly more hair than I do Th e parks capital budget was increased 27 percent last now — certainly, more than the hon. minister, who's just year and will continue year aft er year at that level. So we leaving. Sorry. I can't say who it is. certainly have a few more resources available to us. Anyway, I guess the question, as well, is I'm wonder- But as the member and her colleagues have noted, it's ing…. It's called Denman Island park. Was that a local important to make sure that the existing parks that we name that they chose? How did the ministry decide that have are well serviced, that the infrastructure is replaced. that would be the name of the park? We heard earlier today about the new infrastructure at Bowron Lake as an example of the many investments that Hon. T. Lake: I'm feeling a little sheepish that I don't we're making in parks across British Columbia with this know my British Columbia history, and I have a sneaky increased capital budget. feeling that the member opposite does. I'm told that the parks staff consulted with the local C. Trevena: Th is is actually my last question. Just to community and that name was chosen by the local com- confi rm from the minister, then: there is no budget line munity. within the Ministry of Environment parks section for land acquisitions for existing or new parks? S. Chandra Herbert: Yes, it was Rear-Admiral Denman who Denman Island would have been named Hon. T. Lake: Th at is correct. aft er. Unfortunately — and I think it speaks to the coloni- al history of British Columbia — Rear-Admiral Denman S. Chandra Herbert: Well, Denman Island is a little was not exactly well-regarded by First Nations com- bit of a distance from Vancouver–West End, but it's a munities. Th ere was actually an attack on a village, led place…. by Rear-Admiral Denman, which I think is why he was An Hon. Member: Denman Street. noted at the time as being a hero. Of course, today we look back on that and have great concerns about some of S. Chandra Herbert: We have Denman Street; my that history. Anyway, I was just curious, because we have offi ce is on Denman Street. I thank you, hon. Member. Boyle Point Park, Fillongley Park, Sandy Island Marine It's a place that I certainly spent a lot of time at in my Park on Denman Island — interesting to note that this childhood — fabulous parks there, fabulous places — came from the community. and a tourism destination. Now, I know it's coastal Douglas fi r — one of the 1 percent, I understand, left of coastal Douglas fir bio- Interjection. geoclimatic areas. I seem to recall — and looking at the map, some of that area has been logged. I'm just curious S. Chandra Herbert: Sorry, I missed the hon. minis- what proportion — or if it's all natural and has not been ter's remark, but maybe he'll share it again later. I'm sure touched before. it was witty. Maybe it was something about ugly sweat- ers. I'm not sure. Hon. T. Lake: As the member noted, the lands are Anyway, I just was curious. I have a few questions within the coastal Douglas fi r biogeoclimatic zone. Th ere about the park. It's a park I've actually swum in before, has been some logging. I can't tell the member exact- in the lake there. I went swimming. ly the percentage of land that was logged, but I'm told I'm curious. I seem to recall a couple of properties very that because of that disturbed area, we have the Taylor's close to the Chickadee Lake, to Chickadee Lake water- Checkerspot butterfl y, which is a species at risk that likes shed. I'm curious how they will be aff ected by this park to take advantage of that former activity. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13355

S. Chandra Herbert: I'm just curious. Some of the It stretches from west of the Stewart-Cassiar Highway, area I recall as being fairly well maintained, some of it in which Dease Lake is situated on, all the way over to in- terms of road access for swimming and other things like clude part of the Alaska Highway in the Liard region. that. Is the provincial government considering making I'm pleased to ask the minister some comments about any steps to improve access to…? Th ere were also a num- this area, as I've had the pleasure of working in some ber of potholes and muddy areas that I seem to recall you of that area and also being there in a leisure capacity. could get caught in, and access to the lake was not always I've done wildlife work in the Spatsizi Park, on Mount easy. Are there any plans to improve the park for Denman Edziza, Tatlatui and the Cody plateau areas on the west- Island residents and potential visitors? ern part. Back in the '70s I was working on the then pro- posed Alaska pipeline, which would have come down Hon. T. Lake: Th e member may not have been able through Dawson Creek. It would have intersected British to participate in the earlier discussion over management Columbia in the Alaska Highway–Liard area. So I'm plans. But when we create a class A park, then a manage- somewhat familiar with that part of the world as well. ment planning exercise is done with the local residents It's an agreement that the province has come to with and parks staff . What they would do is look at the sort of the Kaska Dena First Nation and with input, also, from high recreational values of the area and determine what the Tahltan First Nation on the western side of this con- infrastructure would be appropriate and what areas are servancy. best set aside for conservation and less of a human foot- Th e whole conservancy is 233,304 hectares, and the print. So that planning process will be undertaken. Dease-Liard sustainable management plan of 2012 and the accompanying strategic land use planning agreement S. Chandra Herbert: Yes, I missed that part of the dis- between the province and the Kaska establish 231,300 cussion as I was arriving in the House, so thank you to hectares of protected area. So that's some 2,000 less than the minister for sharing that. is listed in the bill. Th en that will be closed to all indus- [1635] trial exploration and development, it says. Just a fi nal question. Maybe it's already been answered. [1640] Should a user of the water, somebody who uses it for their I just want to ask the minister: fi rst of all, is the discrep- home or their cabin or whatever, need to upgrade their ancy of the 233,304 hectares in the bill and the 231,300 in system for one reason or another, which could include the planning document a measurement diff erence as per access to the park to get at how they access their water, discussion of a previous section? Or is there some other that kind of thing…? Does this change how they might reason for the diff erences? do that? Maybe they have to alter a piece of the land to get at piping, for example. Hon. T. Lake: Th e member is correct in that better techniques of mapping and technology allow us to be a Hon. T. Lake: I appreciate the member's concern for little more precise in measurements. But also, through existing rights that are there now, making sure that they this process, what happens is that in the planning docu- are not impacted by the action that government is taking. ment you look at it from a high level. Th en, as you get When we put parks into the system through sched- down, there are fi ner measurements made, adjustments ule D, which is what we're doing in this case, it allows made to the boundary based on discussions with the for existing authorizations to continue. Now, if someone Kaska Dena, in this case, and the other natural resource were to do a very signifi cant upgrade of their water sys- ministries as those boundaries are adjusted — you know, tem that had impacts on the park, well, we'd like to have sort of fi ne-tuned. So it's probably a combination of both a discussion about that. But certainly we don't want to that fi ne-tuning process that occurs from the planning prevent them from doing maintenance on their systems, document to the implementation as well as better tech- upgrading their systems. Again, there would be discus- niques of measuring. sion with park staff to ensure that the ecological values were not impacted. M. Sather: Continuing on from the 2012 planning document, it says that the Dease-Liard area has some of Section 5 approved. the highest mineral potential in the province. It goes on to say that these resources are not likely to be developed Th e Chair: Section 6 passed earlier. in the near future. So I'm wondering if the minister can give me some information, then. If it's not likely to be On section 7. developed in the near future, when does the govern- ment anticipate that these mining resources are likely to M. Sather: Section 7 refers to the Ne'āh' conservancy, be developed? and that alone is the subject of section 7. Th is is a large conservancy in the very northern part of our province. Hon. T. Lake: Th is is back to the discussion of the 13356 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

balance between economic development and conserva- I mentioned earlier that 14.5 percent of the British tion values. In this case there are fi ve placer mine claims Columbia area is in parks and protected areas. That that will be expropriated as part of this park or con- leaves about 85 percent not in parks or protected areas, servancy. When we are looking at these areas for con- and those would be potentially open for mineral de- servancies, we consider the potential for economic velopment. development. Of course, with First Nations, that's an important discussion, because in many instances there M. Sather: Th e minister will have to explain to me are economic development agreements that are entered how on earth the discussion of mining in this conserv- into — revenue-sharing agreements that are entered into ancy is not relevant to the bill. I just don't get that. Can with First Nations. he explain? So, certainly, the opportunity to take advantage of sus- tainable natural resource development for the benefi t of Hon. T. Lake: As I've told the member, there is no the province and the First Nations involved is considered, mining in this conservancy. Th is is in the bill. Th e land but in terms of when those opportunities come forward, outside the conservancy around the province is not in the as the member knows, the market will be the thing that bill. We're talking about the land that's in the bill. Th is dictates. Government doesn't plan when that develop- conservancy has no mining opportunities. ment will occur but essentially responds to the market- place when those opportunities present themselves and M. Sather: I accept the minister's statement that there then, of course, goes through an extensive and rigorous is not at this time any mining within the conservancy, but environmental assessment process. there seems to be every indication — I think the minis- ter would agree — that there will be mining development M. Sather: So with regard to the fi ve properties that within this conservancy. the minister alluded to, are these, then, properties that are not under development at all, or are they under de- Hon. T. Lake: Perhaps I'm not being clear, and I apolo- velopment already? gize for that. A park use permit, which is what would be [1645] issued for activities within a conservancy such as this, must not be issued to authorize the following activities Hon. T. Lake: Th e fi ve placer claims are owned by one in a conservancy: commercial logging; mining; hydro- individual. We understand there has been some minor ac- electric power generation, other than local run-of-river tivity, but as the member knows, placer mining is quite dif- projects; any other activities that would not be in accord- ferent than open-pit mining or underground mining — so ance with this section. relatively minor disturbances over those fi ve claims. M. Sather: So for the government to permit, let's say, M. Sather: Well, I think it's instructive for the public to mining within the conservancy, they would have to do understand that 85 percent of the province is in the min- an amendment to the conservancy boundaries. Would eral zone designation and is open to exploration. that be correct? Th ey seem like confl icting statements. On the one hand, we have the statement that the conservancy is Hon. T. Lake: Th e member is correct. If any govern- closed to all industrial exploration and development, ment were to consider that kind of activity, they would but 85 percent of the province is part of the mineral have to go through a legislative process to remove the zone and open to exploration. Can the minister clarify land from the conservancy. that discrepancy for me so that we can have a clearer idea? M. Sather: Of course, that's exactly what the govern- As the minister is aware, there has been quite a bit of ment did in the Klinaklini River in the last sitting of the mineral development in the north — some of it of con- Legislature, I believe it was. Th at was in an area that was siderable proportions. Can the minister give myself and supposed to have the highest level of protection, the the public a better understanding of how we have a huge Great Bear rainforest, in the province. area that's closed to exploration and development, but 85 [1650] percent of the whole province is in the mineral explora- So how can the people of British Columbia have any tion development area — so that I can get a better sense comfort in the minister's words when, in fact, if some- of just what level of protection there actually is under body wants to put in a mine, the government can very this conservancy? easily, and I submit most likely would, do a change to the boundary of the conservancy — and it might be in the Hon. T. Lake: It's not really pertinent to the bill in middle of the conservancy; not necessarily at the edges — front of us. However, as mentioned, 100 percent of this to allow that development to take place? Is that not likely conservancy is protected from industrial development. what would happen? Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13357

Hon. T. Lake: Th is is a democracy, and when a govern- shall occur in this conservancy. ment is elected by the people of the province of British [1655] Columbia and puts an act in front of the Legislature, it Now, I can't guarantee what future governments will gets debated, as we are doing today, and the people's do. I can't guarantee that future governments won't raise representatives have the right to vote on that. taxes 300 percent. I can't guarantee that future govern- It is not our intention as a government to allow min- ments won't privatize B.C. Hydro. I can't guarantee any ing activity to occur in this conservancy or any other of those things. conservancy or park. We would have to do that in pub- We as governments have to make decisions, and we go lic view in the Legislature and go through an act of the through an act of the Legislature, in this case, to change Legislature to make that happen. Th at's the essence of if we want to do that. Th at's a very public process. But if democracy. I'm pretty happy with it. the member is looking for lifetime ironclad guarantees that I can hold future governments to, I'm afraid that's a M. Sather: Well, I think we just need to be clear on the little beyond the powers of my ministry. reality. I mean, it's great to have the conservancy, because, you know, it's hopefully going to provide some protec- M. Sather: Yes, I made it clear that I was referring to tions. I read in the plan that the Kaska First Nation have the ministry's 2012 Dease-Liard sustainable resource concerns about some of the development that's taken management plan. place in their territory and do want to see improvements Moving on to another area, this refers to the earlier upon it. edition of the same Dease-Liard sustainable resource Th e reality is that 85 percent of the province is in the management plan. Th is is the 2004 edition that the gov- mineral development zone. We know that there's been ernment had. Th is is with regard to caribou management. lots of development in the north already. It just kind of Th ere's a section in that 2004 document about cari- defi es logic to suggest that there's really much measure bou management. Th ere are two caribou herds of note of protection with regard, at least, to the issue of mining. in this area, the Little Rancheria caribou herd and the I think I'll leave it go at that on that part, but certainly, I Horseranch caribou herd — substantial natural re- think we need to be aware of what the reality is with re- sources. Th e Little Rancheria herd and the Horseranch gard to development. herd have distinct seasonal alpine ranges but overlap on Now, there's another statement in that planning docu- winter ranges. "Caribou management," this document ment that I found rather astounding — but not surprising, said, "has been identified as the most sensitive issue at the same time. It says: "All mining and mine-related ac- within the plan area due to the overlap between the best tivities are carried out in ways that minimize impact on caribou winter habitat and timber that is the most suit- their surroundings, and B.C.'s standards for environmental able for harvesting." protection are amongst the highest in the world." In 1997 the province of British Columbia, represented I know this is the fantasy that this government clings to, by the Premier and the Yukon government, signed an but how in good faith can the minister have that in their agreement called the B.C.-Yukon intergovernmental rela- planning document? We know that the Environment tions accord, because these herds cross the boundary into Ministry, his ministry, has been gutted. We know that on the Yukon as well. A memorandum of understanding the ground, staff have been eliminated in large measure. was signed between the government ministry in British We know that we don't have the capacity to know what's Columbia and the department of the Yukon. happening on the land. We don't have proper planning Now, the thing that jumped out at me is that in the up- procedures, as a result. dated version, the 2012 version, there's virtually no men- How can the minister in good faith…? I know they've tion, of any substance whatsoever, of caribou. I want to been saying this for years, but I ask the minister again: ask the minister why that is. What happened to the part how in good faith he can or his government can make of the document in 2004 that discussed these two very this statement that B.C.'s standards for environmental signifi cant caribou herds? protection are amongst the highest in the world? I'm talking to the minister about a quote that's in his Hon. T. Lake: Well, I need to draw the member's atten- planning document for this conservancy. Now, if the tion to the process here. Th e sustainable land resource minister doesn't want to respond to that uncomfortable management plan is a document created by Forests, nature of it, so be it. But this is about the planning docu- Lands and Natural Resource Operations, working with ment that supports this conservancy. So how can the the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. minister suggest that that's not relevant? Th e result of that plan is a recommendation to create the conservancy. Th at's what we are doing here today, creat- Hon. T. Lake: I can only speculate that the statement ing the conservancy that is a result of that land use plan- comes from the Dease-Liard land use management plan. ning process. Th e fact is that the legislation is clear: no mining activity I was not a part of that process. Our ministry was 13358 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

given the plan in order to create the park. We're creat- seriously. Th e minister says that they're protecting the ing the park. As the member understands, some of the habitat and that they have the interests of this import- high-value habitat is for woodland caribou, for moose, ant species at heart. He loves animals, and that's great. for Stone's sheep, mountain goats and bears, as well as But in fact, it appears to have been completely dimin- migrating neotropical songbirds and waterfowl. So all of ished in terms of importance. It's not that it wasn't the the values that the member is discussing that were in- same document. It was the same plan, the Dease-Liard cluded in the SRMP are accepted, which is why we are sustainable resource management plan — just two itera- creating this conservancy to meet and preserve those val- tions of it. One of them talks about the caribou; the other ues identifi ed in the plan. really doesn't. Th e other thing that was brought up in that 2004 docu- M. Sather: We know that the government made a deci- ment was the concern that there's this overlap between sion to remove from the Ministry of Environment many the best caribou winter habitat and timber that's the most of the functions that the ministry has had historically and suitable for harvesting. Has the minister had any dis- up to very recent years. However, the minister, I would cussions with his colleague on that factor? In fact, is it a hope…. I guess I should ask the question, because I'm concern, and what is the level…? Well, I'll just ask him, making an assumption. So I will ask the question. fi rst of all, if he's had that discussion with his colleague. [1700] Th e minister has alluded to the fact that his colleague Hon. T. Lake: Not specifically. As mentioned, the in the Ministry of Natural Resource Operations has been woodland caribou is an important species. Th e planning responsible for the creation of the wildlife management process identifi ed that. Th e conservancy was created to park, or the lack thereof, but did the minister have dis- allow preservation of habitat. I'm not sure if the mem- cussions with his colleague about those resources with ber is upset that the word "caribou" was left out of one regard to this conservancy? document. Certainly, there was no eff ort made to exclude caribou habitat from the conservancy as outlined in the Hon. T. Lake: Perhaps the member was not partici- bill. It includes important habitat for woodland caribou. pating earlier when we discussed the process by which I'm not sure if the member is just upset that one word these decisions are made. All of the land-based planning was left out of a document or he's upset that the park regimes come up through the environment and land use somehow excludes caribou habitat. It certainly does not. committee, which is chaired by the Minister of Forests, [1705] Lands and Natural Resource Operations. I serve as the vice-chair of that board, and that committee is com- M. Sather: Of course I'm upset that "caribou" was left prised of all of the natural resource ministries as well as out of the document. But I do want to address the sub- the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. stantive issue that is put here about the confl ict between All of these plans that you see coming forward in legis- caribou winter habitat and timber that is the most suit- lation are discussed and approved at that level, which in- able for harvesting. cludes all of the natural resource ministries. Can the minister advise: has there been timber har- vesting within this conservancy? M. Sather: Well, I would like to ask the minister: does he think that these caribou herds are important, and if Hon. T. Lake: In 2004, as part of the Dease-Liard sus- so, why are they not mentioned at all in this document? tainable resource management plan, the horse ranch zone was created to conserve cultural and historical val- Hon. T. Lake: I am an animal lover of all types. I do ues, not allowing timber harvesting within the zone. As not discriminate against caribou, for sure. As I indicated mentioned, the conservancy will not allow timber har- to the member in my previous answer, this area has high- vesting to occur in the future. value habitat for woodland caribou, which we know is a Th e conservancy includes about 4.7 percent of the an- species at risk that we are taking extraordinary eff orts nual allowable cut in the Cassiar TSA. Th ere's a small across the province to protect. amount of the AAC that falls within the conservancy I'm not sure why the member thinks that somehow we that will not be accessed due to the inability for forestry have excluded caribou and the values that are important activities to occur in the conservancy. to caribou in this conservancy. In fact, one of the reasons the conservancy was created was to provide that habitat Sections 7 and 8 approved. for a species which is important for British Columbia and is at risk. Title approved.

M. Sather: Well, it makes it diffi cult for this side of the Hon. T. Lake: I move the committee rise and report House, I think, and for the public to take the document the bill complete without amendment. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13359

Motion approved. the clearance. I want to also ask the minister that even though the choice is there for folks who want to receive Th e committee rose at 5:08 p.m. their notices electronically…. Let's say, for instance, that some individuals have re- Th e House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. quested it electronically, and they change their mind aft er a year or a couple of years and realize they actually want Report and it in the hard copy form in the mail. Is the process fairly Th ird Reading of Bills simple, that they make a request to the municipality that they want to go back to the old system, rather than hav- BILL 5 — PROTECTED AREAS OF ing to go through some lengthy process of having to re- BRITISH COLUMBIA AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 verse all that?

Bill 5, Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Hon. B. Bennett: It would be very simple for a taxpay- Act, 2013, reported complete without amendment, read a er to do that. Just a notice in writing to the municipality third time and passed. is all it would take.

Hon. I. Chong: I now call committee debate on Bill S. Chandra Herbert: It's an interesting bill. Certainly, 6, intituled Local Government Statutes Amendment it's one I would have thought might end up in a miscel- Act, 2013. laneous bill, but it's here nonetheless. I would like to thank the minister for bringing this forward. Certainly, Committee of the Whole House Vancouver city council has made this request before. I wanted to ask the minister: when did Vancouver city BILL 6 — LOCAL GOVERNMENT STATUTES council request this change? AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 Hon. B. Bennett: Th e city of Vancouver requested the Th e House in Committee of the Whole on Bill 6; D. changes to allow for electronic notice in 2012. Black in the chair. S. Chandra Herbert: It's good to see that on this Th e committee met at 5:10 p.m. one, at least, the government has moved a little bit more quickly than they have around the local elections act, Section 1 approved. which I know has been requested many times over. On section 2. A question I had is: what happens if somebody pro- vides an e-mail address…? You know how e-mails some- H. Lali: Section 2 allows for the municipality to e- times change, or sometimes e-mail services no longer mail property tax notices upon request of a resident. I exist as the Internet evolves. What would happen in a just want the minister to put on the record that this is case like that? voluntary for those folks who request the property no- tice to be sent electronically — what is allowed here — Hon. B. Bennett: If an e-mail address changed, the and that people still have a choice, especially folks that property owner, taxpayer, would be under the same obli- are elderly or who don't have computers or who are not gation they're under today to advise the local govern- very well-versed electronically, to receive their notices ment that their address had changed. Nothing really has by the regular mail. changed with regard to this particular question. [1715] Hon. B. Bennett: Before I answer the question, I If somebody moved, or if somebody changed their ad- would like to introduce, to my right, Meagan Gergley, the dress, they'd also be required to notify the local govern- director of legislation for the ministry; Michelle Dann, ment of that change. to my left , the director of local government advisory services; and hidden away in the Cedar Room is Talitha S. Chandra Herbert: Does the minister know how Soldera, director of local government fi nance. oft en this option has been used elsewhere in the prov- To the member's question, we did consider making it ince, or is this a Vancouver-only change? mandatory in Merritt, but on the whole, we decided that we would make it voluntary for the whole province, or Hon. B. Bennett: If I understood the question, this for the city of Vancouver. is brand-new for all local governments — Vancouver and the rest of the province — so we have no experi- H. Lali: I thank the minister for that explanation, ence yet. 13360 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

S. Chandra Herbert: Yes, of course. It's the Community Sections 2 to 4 inclusive approved. Charter, not just Vancouver. Vancouver can be accused of being Vancouver-centric sometimes. Th at was not my On section 5. intention. [1720]

Interjections. H. Lali: I think my colleague from Peace River South is a little too eager to pass this section. S. Chandra Herbert: Never, says the member from the Section 5 of the Vancouver Charter "provides the au- Kootenays. Never, says the member from the Th ompson- thority for the city to regulate hours of business for li- Nicola area. censed establishments generally and for other businesses One last question. What's the experience across gov- prescribed by regulation." I sort of have a general idea ernment in doing this kind of work — you know, with about our liquor laws in this province, and I was won- Hydro and ICBC, potentially, and other Crowns or other dering if there was any dialogue by the minister's offi ce or areas in government? the ministry with the B.C. liquor control board. If there was, then what was their reaction to this? Hon. B. Bennett: I don't think that I'm qualifi ed to an- swer that question — how something is working broadly Hon. B. Bennett: Yes, there was discussion with the across government. I just don't know. provincial liquor regulators. Perhaps to go a little bit fur- ther, in case the member still has a question left there, H. Lali: A couple of questions just arose aft er my col- this is intended to allow Vancouver to do what all other league asked a couple of questions. municipalities in the province can already do, which, for In what other provinces have this electronic e-mailing a change…. Actually, the rest of us can do something of property tax notices been implemented, and what are they can't do. their experiences? Anyhow, we're going to change that and allow the city of Vancouver, if they wish, to pass a bylaw that would Hon. B. Bennett: We don't know. We were asked to make their hours for the service of liquor diff erent than do this by Vancouver and by many local governments what the provincial permit that the establishment has in British Columbia because they wanted to, so we're states — if that's clear. responding to their requests. We're not really sure how much it's used across the country. H. Lali: I thank the minister for the answer. A quick follow-up to that. Is the legislative route here of changing H. Lali: My colleague just previously asked a ques- the Vancouver Charter the only way this could have been tion about e-mails changing. Th is is not a question done? Or does the minister know if the B.C. LCB — the about e-mails changing, but sometimes servers are liquor control board — had any kind of authority to be down, and sometimes service providers go out of busi- able to regulate this? ness as well. Oft en the individual might not immediately know that Hon. B. Bennett: Th ere's no other way for us to assist they are not receiving e-mails. For instance, if a tax no- the city of Vancouver with this matter. As I said, other tice has been sent by e-mail, and it doesn't go through, communities in the province have the legal authority oft en you'll get the bounce-back that says the e-mail to supersede the terms of a provincial liquor licence in didn't go through. terms of the hours of service. Vancouver's authority to Has the minister or municipalities that requested this do that was very much unclear. Th ey wanted it clarifi ed, contemplated that in such an event, if there's a bounce- and that's what this is about. back a few times, perhaps they would send the notice by regular mail because repeated attempts to send it by elec- H. Lali: In terms of clarifying the city's power, is this tronic mail have not been successful? what this is all about — to be able to clarify the power and authority that they have, or were there any problems Hon. B. Bennett: Two parts to the answer. First of all, that were identifi ed by the city of Vancouver that needed it is, once again, optional for the property owner, the tax- to be fi xed? Were there problems that perhaps the hours payer. Th ey choose whether or not they want to receive were too long, or they wanted to regulate it backwards tax notices electronically or not. Th e second and more to shorten them, or was it to allow them the fl exibility to germane response, I suppose, is that one would assume actually lengthen the hours of service? that all local governments are utilizing best practices and that if a notice bounced back several times, that local gov- Hon. B. Bennett: Th ere was a real, specifi c problem ernment would send it by mail or contact the property that the city of Vancouver identifi ed and asked the prov- owner in some fashion. ince for help on. Th at problem was that there are some Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13361

establishments, liquor establishments or establishments Interjection. that serve liquor in Vancouver, that had provincial per- mits that allowed them to serve liquor later than what H. Lali: Slot machines were like that, the hon. minister the city bylaw allowed. says. Th at's certainly true as well. It was unclear as to whether the city of Vancouver With more and more advances in technology and also had the authority under their bylaw to tell those estab- parking meters and parking machines that dispense tick- lishments that they must stop serving liquor in accord- ets…. I know that I've had personal experiences where ance with the city bylaw, as opposed to what it stated on most of that technology, in many instances, doesn't work. their provincial permit. Th is amendment makes it clear People are constantly putting in their credit card and that the city of Vancouver's bylaw has the authority to pulling it back out, and it says to please try again. It gets supersede the terms of hours of service on the provin- frustrating for people over and over again to be able to cial permit. do that. I'm wondering if the minister could comment on that. H. Lali: Another question that just comes to mind…. Th ese changes, which I'm not against, and neither is the Any of these requests from Vancouver — did it have any- caucus on our side — was there any kind of feedback that thing to do with, perhaps, any negative aspects of the had come in from Vancouver with people complaining Stanley Cup riots that have taken place in the past? to the city? I know that the option to pay for street park- [1725] ing by credit card or phone has actually been available in Vancouver since 2006 for the credit card and 2010 for the Hon. B. Bennett: Th e city of Vancouver hasn't indi- phone, respectively. But this legislation now allows the cated that to me or to my staff . city to be able to do further — like also collect fees direct- ly, rather than through a third party, as they currently do. Was there any kind of feedback that came in as a re- S. Chandra Herbert: I understand that this is one sult of your consultation that highlighted the problem change around liquor regulation that Vancouver has re- that folks may have complained to city hall about — ma- quested to bring them up to the level of other cities, mu- chines not working, or even paying by telephone? I've nicipalities, towns across the province. I'm curious. Is done it myself, where you keep trying the same proced- this the only change around liquor policy that Vancouver ures. Th e directions are pretty clear. You keep trying over has requested? and over again, and it doesn't work. Of course, that leads to a lot of frustration for some folks that may want to be Hon. B. Bennett: Th is is the only change requested by able to do this. the city of Vancouver dealing with liquor. I wonder if the minister could tell me if that kind of discussion had taken place, where the complaints have Section 5 approved. already come in over these two systems to the city of Vancouver. On section 6. Hon. B. Bennett: Th e ministry has no recollection of H. Lali: Th e minister's press release of February 13 on ever having heard from the city of Vancouver that they this bill says that, under this section, it provides the op- were experiencing complaints about this process. Th is is tion of being able to pay for parking with a credit card more a matter of this old legislation needing to be mod- or phone and not just cash. Th is is for the Vancouver ernized and the situation where the local government, in Charter. I was wondering if the minister could tell me this case, probably already has the process in place to col- if there is still a choice available for folks to be able to lect parking fees with credit cards and so forth but didn't, pay with coins or even machines that take dollar bills, strictly speaking, have the legal authority in this old piece for instance. of legislation. So they asked us to modernize this piece. [1730] Hon. B. Bennett: This will not prevent those who want to park on the street in the city of Vancouver from H. Lali: I guess my fear is…. I'm going to give you paying cash. It just allows the city to accept payment in an example of something similar that has taken place. other forms. When you look at the Canadian dollar bills — I guess we don't have dollar bills now; we have fi ve and above — it H. Lali: I've talked to a number of people, and people says there in little print that this note is legal tender. It have complained about a lot of these machines that they says that in many currencies around the world as well. put out there. I mean, in the good old days, I guess you Obviously, it is contrary to the constitution to be able to put your coins in, you push that little lever in, you pulled reject cash payment for something, because the note is it out, and there's your ticket that came out. legal tender. 13362 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

If you look at the airline industry now, with almost province of British Columbia. everything you've got to pay for, whether you try to [1735] get a sandwich or a drink or you're going to buy duty- free goods on airplanes…. You look at the policy of Air H. Lali: I guess that doesn't actually lessen my fears. It Canada, where they don't accept cash anymore. It's all actually heightens my fears in that…. If this body had a credit card. I'm using this as an analogy here. Basically, certain amount of control that you could say to the muni- what it does is it discriminates against people who don't cipalities: "You can't do that. You can't end cash machines, have credit cards, for whatever reason. I'm talking about coin-operated parking meters, etc…." Th e minister basic- the airline industry, and I'm going to use the analogy and ally said that that decision lies with the city of Vancouver. how it would apply here. Well, therein lies my fear. It discriminates against youths who may not be eli- Has any dialogue taken place between the minister or gible for getting credit cards because they're too young the ministry with the city of Vancouver or its offi cials that and they haven't built up credit. It discriminates against this ought not to happen? Coin- or bill-operated, paper- folks who are on welfare or people who are working operated machines ought not to be done away with be- poor or unemployed poor who don't have credit cards cause it would bring undue hardship on constituents that or people who, for whatever reason, fall into a bad credit we all have in common. history and have chopped up their credit cards because Th ese would be constituents who do not own credit of some agreement or voluntarily. So they deal only with cards, who do not have the credit history to be able to cash or cheque. have credit cards. Th ere are many constituents that we all When you look at Air Canada, for instance, they don't have who don't even have chequing accounts in banks, accept fi ve bucks for a sandwich. You've got to pull out etc. Th ey can't have the use of a card, a debit card even, a credit card to be able to do that. So if you're poor or as well. So cash is the way that they operate oft en. you're a youth and you don't have a credit card and you Th erein lies my fear that people who are disadvantaged, haven't eaten…. You get on the airplane, and you're there people who are on the lower rungs of the economic cycle, for fi ve or six hours. You're going to be hungry for that do not have the ability to have credit cards to be able to fi ve or six hours unless they keep giving you peanuts to pay for parking. Th ey're going to be the ones who are go- eat. Even then, I think peanuts cost. ing to be hurt the most and will not be able to have the Bringing that over to the municipal angle here, my fear use of coin-operated or bill-operated parking meters on is that in the city of Vancouver, even though the minis- the street or in parking lots in Vancouver. ter said the choice is available…. If you still want to put Can the minister assure this House that the minister coins into a machine to get your couple of hours or 25 and the ministry will make every eff ort to pass the mes- minutes for parking, that's there. But if you want to use sage on to the city of Vancouver that coin-operated ma- a credit card, that's there. If you want to use a phone to chines are not to be done away with in terms of parking phone it in, that's also there as well. meters? My fear is that eventually the coin machines — or, if there are any, paper bill–operated machines — in park- Hon. B. Bennett: I certainly respect the member's ing lots are going to be done away with. It's all going to be heartfelt concern for those who like to use cash. However, just credit card or by phone to be able to then give your it would be in excess of my jurisdiction to tell the city of PIN number on the credit card or by debit. Vancouver to do what he has just suggested. Can the minister assure me that this is not the slippery slope that is going to take us the same way as Air Canada H. Lali: Just one question before my friend from has in terms of no cash accepted for a $5 sandwich? Well, Vancouver has some follow-up questions. I guess it's probably $7.95. But whatever the case may be, I apologize if I came across a little bit strong. I in no this is not going to happen in the future? way am suggesting that the minister or the ministry tell Vancouver what to do. Rather, would the…? Well, I [H. Bloy in the chair.] would like to rephrase that. Would the minister and the ministry — perhaps not the minister but the minister's Hon. B. Bennett: I would really like to bring peace to offi cials; we've got a couple of them sitting beside him the member opposite. He clearly is disturbed about this — be able to inform that this is a concern which is legit- issue. What I can say to the member is that this legisla- imately being raised by members in this House: that the tion certainly leaves it open and available to the city of folks who are least able to access credit cards are going to Vancouver to continue collecting for parking fees in cash. be hurt if coin-operated or bill-operated parking meters Certainly, if the calamitous eventuality is achieved that are going to be done away with? the member described, where we're no longer allowed to Would the minister be willing to do that — to actual- use cash to pay for parking in Vancouver, that decision ly inform the city of Vancouver that we have members would be made by the city of Vancouver and not by the who are raising this issue and that they have some legit- Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13363

imate concerns? Hon. B. Bennett: We're not aware of the city's current practices for collecting parking fees. We know, from hav- Hon. B. Bennett: Th e member is insisting on asking ing been told by the city of Vancouver, that they want- this question that really is irrelevant to these proceed- ed to clarify their authority to collect those parking fees ings. I will say to the member that when this government in a form other than cash, so we are responding with was fi rst elected, we were asked by representatives of lo- that amendment today. I understand that the city of cal government to provide local government with more Vancouver is quite pleased about it. freedom and independence to make their own decisions about matters like this — about parking, how parking S. Chandra Herbert: I guess this just provides greater fees should be collected — and a myriad of many, many clarity for the city in terms of how it collects fees, because other things that local government is responsible for. it's probably been at least two years that they've been col- Aft er much work and much consultation with UBCM lecting fees via cell phone through parking meters across and local governments across this province, we eventu- the city. I would have thought that the ministry would ally passed what's known as the Community Charter. have looked into that if they were being asked to do this Th e Community Charter provides governments in this amendment. province with that latitude, that freedom that they need. If the amendment wasn't required because they're The Vancouver Charter also provides the city of already doing it, that would be one thing. But if they Vancouver with the same sort of latitude and discretion weren't allowed to be doing it before, that's another thing. to act in accordance with what they believe are the best If the minister could provide just a little bit more clar- interests of their citizens. ity on what the request from the city was. Was it to give [1740] them permission to do this, or was this just to clarify the So to answer the member one last time on this ques- legislation to make sure it was explicit that they had the tion, the province of British Columbia…. Neither the right to do that? minister nor the staff are going to suggest to the city of Hon. B. Bennett: It really is more of a clarifi cation. Th e Vancouver in this case that they should do things diff er- current legislation authorizes the city of Vancouver to ently. Th at's up to them. Th ey are elected as mayor and collect fees for parking. It is unclear in the current legis- council. If the member thinks that they ought to be do- lation whether they can do that through cell phones and ing things diff erently there with respect to parking fees, credit cards and so forth, so the city asked the province he ought to go see the mayor, who I understand he has to clarify it for them so that it would be clear. Th at's what some association with. this amendment is about. My staff advise me that they're not aware of any chal- S. Chandra Herbert: It's an interesting one. I'm trying lenges of the practices that the city of Vancouver has been to understand — and maybe the minister can clarify it for employing up to this point. me a little bit — the question of giving the city the ability — I know it's been talked about — to charge for parking Section 6 approved. through the phone and other things. Of course, the city of Vancouver has been doing that now for some time. On section 7. I'm just curious. Does this bill give the city the abil- ity to, if they wanted, bring it in-house, so to speak — to H. Lali: Th is section, this change, actually gives the not have to use a private provider? How is this changing city of Vancouver the ability to create its own bylaw for what the city is currently already doing? Certainly, I've the number of years a property's value can be averaged paid for a parking fee by cell phone already. over. So it goes from three years to a fi ve-year averaging. We don't have a problem with that, but I have a question Hon. B. Bennett: This particular amendment that that I'd like to ask the minister. we're discussing is limited to providing the city of [1745] Vancouver with the authority to collect parking fees in What if the five-year averaging actually raises the essentially any form they wish and not be restricted to assessment level there? What is the appeal proced- cash, which is what the current legislation allows. ure for that? Is there a diff erent appeal process, or is it still the existing appeal process that we have for a B.C. S. Chandra Herbert: Can the minister help me under- Assessment appeal? stand how the city has been charging people for parking by cell phone right now, before this legislation? Was it a Hon. B. Bennett: Th e appeal process remains the same. special agreement with the minister or with the govern- Th e taxpayer, if unhappy with the assessment, would go ment that allowed them to do it — temporarily or some- to a local city of Vancouver panel. If they were still un- thing like that? happy with the result from that, they would take their ap- 13364 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

peal to the Property Assessment Appeal Board. S. Chandra Herbert: Can the minister share why he believes that this change should only be made for S. Chandra Herbert: I'm just curious if the minister Vancouver? has looked at some of the criticisms of the land-averaging policy put forward by Don Cayo. Th ere's some concern Hon. B. Bennett: Th e answer to that question is fairly around fairness. straightforward. Th e city of Vancouver is the only local It works well when property values are all climbing at government that uses averaging, and it is the only local a similar level. His criticism is that at a time when prop- government that has asked the province to change the erty values are increasing and dropping in diff erent ways, averaging from three years to fi ve years. it can distort things and make it so that some properties [1750] are kept with greater increases on their bill for longer than they would need to be if it was left at three years or S. Chandra Herbert: I know Vancouver has a special if it was dealt with in a diff erent manner. status with its own charter. I can't claim to be an expert on the land-averaging sys- I guess my question…. Maybe it's a broader policy tem, the property valuation system. I just was interested question, but does the minister have some reasons in if the minister has looked at that issue and if he has why other municipalities do not use land averaging? If any concerns around that. Vancouver is the only one who has ever used land aver- aging, why is it that others have not decided to do that? Hon. B. Bennett: Averaging is used by the city of Vancouver. Of course, it's available to other communities Hon. B. Bennett: It's a fair question. Th e short answer in the province as well. To try to address the instability to the question is that all other communities, other than of the real estate market and actually to protect taxpay- Vancouver, have just not seen fi t to get involved in aver- ers from radical changes from year to year is the purpose aging, because it is a very complex process. It requires of averaging. more than three years of information to do it. Th ey've just Th e city of Vancouver believes that with fi ve-year aver- decided they don't need to do it. Th ey don't want to do it. aging, they can accomplish that goal — more likely with Th e city of Vancouver, which, I'm sure everyone would fi ve years rather than three years. So we agreed to eff ect agree, has the most interesting and complex real estate this amendment. market in the province, has decided that it is in the best With any property tax system, some property owners interests of their taxpayers to use averaging. We're happy, will end up paying more and some will end up paying as a province, to comply with their request to change the less. Th at's the nature of fair market value. averaging from three to fi ve years. Ultimately, it's Vancouver city council that must make the choices regarding how taxes will be distributed S. Chandra Herbert: Does this change impact how the among the diff erent property classes. Council will con- province does their work around land valuation or any tinue to determine taxation levels for all property classes. of the provincial necessities or organizations? Does this Th at's what they do. Th e province doesn't do that. change any administrative functions or anything within the provincial government, or is this just wholly a city of S. Chandra Herbert: I'm curious, with this land value Vancouver issue and it won't impact the province at all? taxation — and I could have asked it about the other question, around parking — if any thought had been Hon. B. Bennett: Th is is a learning experience for me given to giving this to all communities. Why was this as well. Apparently, the city of Vancouver actually con- decided just for Vancouver? tracts with B.C. Assessment Authority to do the calcula- tions for the three-year averaging, and now, presumably, Hon. B. Bennett: All communities in the province it will have to pay B.C. Assessment Authority for the tax have the authority to average. Some choose to use it, and rolls for fi ve years to do that averaging. Th ere would be some choose not to use it. no other change that we can think of that will be created by this change. S. Chandra Herbert: Vancouver is asking for an exten- sion from three years to fi ve years. Do all municipalities Section 7 approved. have the ability to do fi ve years? On section 8. Hon. B. Bennett: Th e city of Vancouver, if this legis- lation is passed, will be able to use fi ve years in its aver- H. Lali: I wonder if the minister can explain what ef- aging. Th e Community Charter, which governs all the fect section 8 would have in terms of this change, if any. rest of the communities in the province, allows for three- year averaging. Hon. B. Bennett: Th is is entirely housekeeping, clean- Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13365

ing up the act. Th ere's a reference to the British Columbia can't guess what a court of law would do with this legis- Transit Act in the Vancouver Charter, and this act — the lation. It has been draft ed by experts. Th ere's no reason, British Columbia Transit Act — no longer applies to the I would suggest, to think that the circumstances that the city of Vancouver, so we're just removing it. member describes, where a taxpayer failed to receive a notice by e-mail…. Th ere's no reason to think that that Section 8 approved. would be dealt with any diff erently in a court of law than a situation where a taxpayer failed to receive a tax notice On section 9. by regular Canada Post mail.

H. Lali: I'd like to ask the minister if section 9 here, for Section 10 approved. the Vancouver Charter…. Does it give the same chan- ges for powers as the previous section, for communities, On section 11. that we debated about? Is it exactly the same, or are there any changes? H. Lali: I guess we're coming to a close here, because in [1755] the subsequent sections aft er that I don't have any ques- tions. So we're going to pass those. Hon. B. Bennett: Th is change is related to the earlier I've got a question on this one, and depending on the amendments dealing with the delivery of tax notices by e- answer, I may have another question. Other than that, mail. All this does is provide a defi nition of "mail" which if there are other members that might want to jump in, now includes e-mail. that's fi ne. Otherwise, this will be the fi nal section that I'm going to ask a question on. Section 9 approved. Now, under this section 11, on the Vancouver Charter, the wording change is from "sent" to "mailed" to align On section 10. with allowance for e-mailed property tax notices. Again, I'm just wondering if the minister can clarify for me…. H. Lali: Under this section, it just provides that a per- What about for those folks who still want their notices son actually may authorize the collector — this is for the sent via the post, because the reference here says it's for Vancouver Charter — to use an e-mail address on the real e-mails? property tax roll and also that the collector may use that Is there really a need to change this wording in par- e-mail address "for the purpose of transmitting by elec- ticular, you know, from "sent" to "mailed"? Previously, tronic means or making accessible by electronic means obviously, a notice was sent by post mail, whether it's (i) a notice under section 401A (3)" of the act and the tax home delivery or post offi ce box delivery, where you go to statement under section 403 of the act. the post offi ce downtown to check, as it is in some areas. I'm just wondering. Will this actually stand up in court What the diff erence would be…. I mean, that's still mail. if e-mail is not received due to electronic or cybermail Th e post offi ce is mail, or delivering it through the post malfunction? offi ce. Home delivery is still mail. [1800] Hon. B. Bennett: Th is section essentially addresses the Because you have e-mail, which is another form of city of Vancouver's right to send tax notices electronically. mail, why would we actually change the wording from I really don't want to provide any sort of conjecture about "sent" to "mailed"? what would or wouldn't stand the tests in a court of law. So I really can't answer the rest of the member's question. Hon. B. Bennett: Th is is a consequential amendment that makes clear the city of Vancouver will not only be H. Lali: Just to clarify, the reason I ask this question is, able to send out original tax notices by e-mail if the tax- for instance, if the individual claims that they never re- payer requests that, but the city of Vancouver will also ceived their tax notice by e-mail. Th e city says: "Yes, we be able to send out additional information on the taxa- sent it out." Th ere's a dispute. Obviously, there's a charge tion of that property. If there is a supplementary role or attached to, perhaps, a late payment as a result of not re- if somebody has appealed successfully and there is a dif- ceiving the e-mail on time, and the matter ends up in ferent assessment, they'll then be able to send out other court for some reason. Th at's why I asked the question if notices dealing with the taxes by e-mail in addition to this would stand the test of the courts if, for some reason, that fi rst notice. because of electronic or cyberspace malfunction the e- mails were not received. H. Lali: My question, then, is that…. You know, the section is amended by striking out "has been sent" and Hon. B. Bennett: I no longer provide legal opinions. substituting "has been mailed." Why not just call it "has Th erefore, I'm sorry. I apologize to the member, but I been sent or mailed" and have both "sent" and "mailed" in 13366 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

there rather than substituting one for the other? and formula-funded. We'll poke around through here, and I appreciate the minister's answers, and I appreci- Hon. B. Bennett: If the member thinks back to an ate the support of staff . Certainly, this has been a long earlier discussion of a few minutes ago, we're adding a time coming. defi nition of "mail" to the Vancouver Charter such that it will include e-mail, and that's why "mail" is being used [Interruption.] in this consequential amendment. S. Chandra Herbert: Somebody is singing in the Sections 11 to 19 inclusive approved. Legislature. Still singing. All right. A moment of har- mony in this House. Title approved. We'll go to section 2. I appreciated the moment of lev- ity from the member opposite. Hon. B. Bennett: I move that the committee rise and I just question around purposes of the corporation, report the bill complete without amendment. subsection 4(b)(iv).

Motion approved. Th e Chair: If I can remind the member, we're on sec- tion 2. Th e committee rose at 6:04 p.m. S. Chandra Herbert: Yes, sorry. Part 2, Destination Th e House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. BC Corp. Is that correct?

Report and Th e Chair: Yes. Th ird Reading of Bills S. Chandra Herbert: Yes, so then it would be 4, under- BILL 6 — LOCAL GOVERNMENT STATUTES neath there. AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 Th e Chair: No, it's section 2. Bill 6, Local Government Statutes Amendment Act, 2013, reported complete without amendment, read a S. Chandra Herbert: Part 2, Destination…. Oh, I see. third time and passed. It's 2 underneath there. I can say yes, I approve of this section. Hon. I. Chong: I now call committee stage of Bill 3, intituled Destination BC Corp. Act. Sections 2 and 3 approved.

Committee of the Whole House On section 4.

BILL 3 — DESTINATION BC CORP. ACT S. Chandra Herbert: I apologize. I'm a little rusty at this place. It's been eight and a half months since we Th e House in Committee of the Whole on Bill 3; H. have been here. Bloy in the chair. Interjections. Th e committee met at 6:05 p.m. S. Chandra Herbert: Th e members say that I'm whin- Hon. P. Bell: I'm looking forward to the debate on Bill ing over here. I guess the member is retiring, and was 3. I'm joined by George Farkas, who is the CFO of our hoping to retire early, but apparently that's not okay. We organization, and John Blakely, who is the exec director. have to actually show up here to do our job, so I'm glad we can do that. Section 1 approved. Under "Purposes of corporation" it discusses provid- ing support for visitor centres. I'm just curious. Is that On section 2. thinking capital infrastructure, or is the suggestion mar- keting support or integration, some funds? What's the S. Chandra Herbert: I'm going to go through this bill, thinking behind that? not every section, but maybe. We'll see. Th ere are lots of inquiries, and I think there's lots of interest in the tour- Hon. P. Bell: Th e activities that we will be participat- ism community around Destination B.C. and whether ing in are similar to what took place previously under or not it fulfi ls the commitment to be truly industry-led Tourism B.C., and then when it was within the ministry. Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13367

Th ey would include operating funding. It's generally min- quite what they want to do, will they be creating a new or capital, although I think the province did originally plan? What does the minister expect to happen? build some of the larger tourism centres as well. Certainly, we have been spoken to about other opportunities for lar- Hon. P. Bell: I've had some good initial discussions ger tourism centres. with the board chair. Certainly, my view…. Th en residual services, such as brochures and informa- Th ere will be one thing absolutely certain. On May 15 tion coordination, those sorts of things. So the services there will be a new Minister of Tourism, as I step into that were provided previously by Tourism B.C., carried whatever future role I do outside the political arena. I'm into the ministry and now into Destination B.C. would hoping that the rest of my colleagues will continue to be be the same. in the portfolios that they're in. I've certainly suggested to Andrea that I think they S. Chandra Herbert: I see it talks about marketing should at least give Gaining the Edge an additional year. British Columbia domestically, nationally and inter- I think it's a fi ve-year plan. Th at was the way we framed nationally as a tourist destination. My understanding it. Th e government letter of expectation will continue to was the Gaining the Edge document the ministry cre- support Gaining the Edge. ated talked about the B.C. government focusing on the At the same time, if the board in the future feels that international markets, the regional destination market- there needs to be amendments to Gaining the Edge or if ers focusing on the more regional markets as well as the they need to make changes, that's their decision to make, United States and a couple of other places, and then the and I think we want to take advantage of the advice that community DMOs focusing much more locally. they would provide. Th is talks about doing all three. Is this a change? Is the Like most things…. It's probably easier for me to an- ministry suggesting we should change from the Gaining swer some of these questions, since this is my sixth-last the Edge plan? Is that plan out the window now and a day in this House, unless there's an emergency session new plan will be started, as this is an industry-led organ- that I don't know about. If there's something that is near ization, as the minister asserts. and dear for me, it is that, oft entimes, governments make If that is in fact the case, then I will likely make an change for change's sake, and I think that implementa- argument that that is a questionable thesis. tion of key strategies at a minimum should be a fi ve-year [1810] plan and implementation over that plan. If diff erent ministers want to rebrand it to meet their Hon. P. Bell: Same answer, kind of, in the sense that own personal needs or purposes, that's fi ne, but I think what behaviour was occurring previously under Tourism it's a shame if we shift gears too frequently. It served us B.C. and then came into government and now is moving well in other areas, and I think Gaining the Edge will back out — similar sorts of initiatives. serve us well here. It was a good piece of work, industry- What I would point to is that, generally, Tourism B.C. driven, and I think it can provide results and is arguably or Destination B.C. deals with long-haul markets. So demonstrating results. even though Ontario's not international, that's an area Certainly, the government letter of expectation will of focus for us. Generally speaking, Destination B.C. co- indicate that for the fi rst year we'd like to see them stick ordinates the long haul. with it, but it will ultimately be up to the board to make Th e regional DMOs focus their eff orts on the shorter those decisions. haul — so Alberta, Washington — but they may do some marketing internally within British Columbia. Th ose S. Chandra Herbert: Maybe the minister can explain. regional DMOs are funded through Destination B.C., Th e letter of expectation in some ways has to be agreed which was the model in the past. Th at's why you have with by the board. Is that correct? If the government the multiple layers that are spoken to in this. Th en the says, "You must follow this strategy" in the letter of ex- city DMOs, of course, market as they please, sometimes pectation, does the board have the ability to say no, or is within British Columbia, sometimes out. that something — as an expectation — that they actually have to follow? S. Chandra Herbert: Hon. Chair, if I stray too far out- side of the ambit of this, please bring me back. Hon. P. Bell: All Crown corporations have govern- Th e question, again, I guess is…. Tourism B.C., when ment letters of expectation, as did the previous Tourism it was within government, created the Gaining the Edge B.C., so there's no change in that area. It is what govern- strategy. Th ere was a big press conference and a number ment expects of that Crown. It's the way that they com- of promotions around that. municate with the Crown in terms of setting their goals Is the ministry expecting, with the creation of this, that and objectives. When they prepare their service plan, they will follow that plan? Is the minister suggesting that? their service plan is compared to the government letter Or if the new board and staff decide that that plan is not of expectation to ensure that it is fulfi lling the mandate. 13368 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

I can tell the member opposite what I do. I can't speak ferent times in my career, we don't recall anything other for everyone else, but certainly it's an iterative process for than a GLE, a government letter of expectation. me. I sit down with the board chairs of the Crowns that I think the purpose of having fl exibility in the wording I have responsibility for. We talk through what we think is if in some future time government wanted to use a dif- would be the right business model for the coming year, ferent tool. Rather than calling it a government letter of and then we really jointly prepare the GLE. expectation, they could use some other sort of agreement. [1815] We are not aware of any other direction that is used for But that's only me. I can't confi rm that that is the case any other Crown or that has been over the last number for everyone. However, that's no change from the previ- of years that I've had responsibility for these. ous Tourism B.C. model. B. Simpson: Just some questions that are a bit more of S. Chandra Herbert: I'm sorry. When the minister a specifi c nature. With respect to the outline here, "pro- says "the former Tourism B.C. model," is he referring moting development and growth of the tourism indus- to the former model within government or with it be- try," it's explicit that that's at the "regional, sectoral and fore when it was industry-led? My understanding of that community tourism marketing" level. model was that the government and the corporation and I wonder if the minister could comment on what the the former Tourism B.C. when it was outside of govern- relationship will be with heritage sites. As the minister is ment had to come to agreement. Somebody called it a well aware, in my area we have . It's the largest standoff . Neither had more power than the other, and one. Th ey're doing a lot of work in China. Right now, in they had to come to some sort of agreement on the let- fact, I think there's a delegation that went over to China ter of expectation for it to actually enter into Tourism very recently. B.C.'s planning. We have the Cottonwood House Historic Site. We have Quesnel Forks. What would be the relationship between Hon. P. Bell: Th e member is incorrect. Th e previous this new iteration called Destination B.C. and heritage model — and I'm speaking of when Tourism B.C. was sites? How tight would that relationship be? a Crown corporation — would receive an annual GLE. [1820] I was not the minister at the time that it was there, so I can't speak to whether or not it was an iterative process Hon. P. Bell: I was just thinking, as I looked at the or not. Certainly, the minister has the authority to write critic and the member for Cariboo North, that I'm glad the GLE — that should be clear — or cabinet provides I didn't wear my green suit, or there would have been that direction. So no change, but I think it's a best prac- people getting dizzy. I actually contemplated that this tice for any minister to try and work collaboratively with morning, but I thought: "No, today is not the day for a the board chair. green suit." I'm happy that there's at least some mix. St. Patrick's Day is my birthday — remember? So that's com- S. Chandra Herbert: Is that what is referred to, the let- ing up right around the corner here. ter of expectation, under subsection 4(e) where it talks Th e answer to the member's question is…. First of all, about "administering and performing agreements as- I think the member knows that heritage sites are man- signed to it by the minister"? Or are there other things aged through the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural that that could potentially relate to? Resource Operations, so they actually kind of control those entities. We see them as a client, or at least we did Hon. P. Bell: Th e only agreement that we anticipate through the period of time that I had Tourism B.C. inside is the government letter of expectation — the acronym the ministry. I guess we still have it inside the ministry is GLE. for another three or four weeks or so. We see them as a client. We helped them with their S. Chandra Herbert: I know the minister is fam- China trip, as an example, because we thought there was iliar with a number of Crown corporations and with value to that. In return, they help us in marketing British how other entities work within government, as are his Columbia. But those decisions will be taken at a board staff . What other sorts of agreements could potentially level, not forced upon them. So the board will have to be considered? I know right now that it's the letter of balance off all of the diff erent client base that they're expectation. But given how other corporations work in dealing with. government, what other kinds of examples might be pos- Certainly, my advice to them, if they were to ask me, sible under this section? is that I think there is real value. Th e member opposite knows that we have done quite a bit with Barkerville over Hon. P. Bell: I'm just checking with staff , but of the the last number of years, as we have with the other herit- Crown corporations that we currently have responsibil- age sites, including most recently creating an opportunity ity for and the ones that I've had responsibility for at dif- at the Vancouver Trade and Convention Centre for them Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13369

to have a display there throughout the year. people that have a diversity of skills on it. So that deci- But they are seen as a client, and they would be one of sion will have been taken out of the hands of government a number of tourism facilities that we would help sup- directly and placed into the hands of the board. port around the province. [1825] Now, I suppose a GLE, if a minister felt compelled, B. Simpson: Th e minister is right. I think that there could direct the board to allocate specifi c amounts of has been a good relationship there since Tourism B.C. funding. I don't see the GLE working in that way — not came into government. One of the concerns, of course, to that degree. But certainly, best practice, in my view, is with the heritage sites is that the operating budgets get ongoing support for visitor centres around the province. stretched thin. It is good to get some help. Th e fi rst year that I had responsibility for the fi le we Just if the minister could clarify: does he see any kind added some money to the visitor centres, and we've con- of diff erence, for heritage sites in particular, in terms of tinued to try and do that because I, like the member op- the level of funding? Because this will now be a stand- posite, agree that the visitor centres are oft en the real alone Crown corporation, will there be any diff erence in gateway to a community — for rubber-tire traffi c in par- terms of the increased capacity or decreased capacity for ticular, which supports many small rural communities. Destination B.C. to service its clients in either joint ven- tures or partnerships? How does he see that playing out? B. Simpson: Th e other aspect, of course, as the minis- Is it going to be a plus or a minus? ter is aware, of visitor centres is that they're oft en linked with things like museums, a chamber of commerce — Hon. P. Bell: Th e funding envelope for Destination you know, front-counter kinds of things. So they are vital. B.C. will remain fl atlined this year. Th en it will increase Th e other piece that strikes me in this section, section with activity within the tourism industry or decrease, 4, just in terms of the purposes of the corporation, is: potentially — the downside, I suppose, of being formula- does the minister envision a rebranding exercise? In the funded. Th ere will be a measure put in place that will establishment of a new organization, oft en one of the fi rst align funding to the amount of activity that's occurring exercises they do is: "Who are we? What are we? What's in the industry. But it will always be trade-off s. our logo?" All of that stuff . Coming from rural B.C., as does the member oppos- What does the minister envision in terms of that? If it ite, I have had a passion for heritage sites for a long time. is, as the minister has indicated, a fl atline budget, how We did what we could in my two-year tenure to try and much of that could end up being simply a rebranding support that activity. I know there are many other mem- exercise that actually detracts from some of the ongoing bers in this House that feel the same way. work that a lot of the regional organizations, visitor cen- But I can't — or I shouldn't — prescribe what future tres, heritage sites are already doing? Does the minister ministers or what the board chair would do. Certainly, I envision a signifi cant rebranding exercise being under- would be providing advice that would be encouraging taken here in the fi rst year? them to continue to support the heritage sites around the province. I think they're a tremendous tourism asset. Hon. P. Bell: No, I don't anticipate any rebranding. All But that will ultimately be the board's decision, as they of the brands were transferred to the new Destination decide on their budgets. B.C. Crown corporation with — or will be, I should say…. No, I guess they have been already. Yes, they have been B. Simpson: Th is section also states that Destination transferred already with the assets, or will be on April 1. B.C. will provide support for visitor centres. As the min- We're anticipating that they will continue to use the ister knows, in our smaller rural communities, visitor brands that are in place. But again, if the board believed centres are a hub of activity. Th ey also are a job creation for some reason that that was important, that they want- centre, particularly in the summer. We generally get a ed to make a change, as long as it was within the gov- couple of jobs, additional jobs, in there. ernment letter of expectation, they'd be able to do that. Does the minister see any signifi cant changes in how I would not anticipate it. Th e indications, for me, from visitor centres will be aligned or funded or supported by board members and board chair is that they think we Destination B.C. from what the current practice is? have a great brand. Th ey just want to build on it and make more eff ective use of the dollars. [L. Reid in the chair.] S. Chandra Herbert: The minister will know…. Hon. P. Bell: Again, this bill by itself does not change Certainly, I've heard at many tourism conferences around the funding that is available to Destination B.C. What it the province and with many tourism business owners changes is who controls that funding. It's now controlled some concerns about alignment between the community by the board, which, I would argue, is representative of destination marketing organizations, the regions and the the industry and of good practice in terms of having provincial and that sometimes they may work at cross- 13370 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

purposes or sometimes we're not getting the most bang cessful — that, in alignment with the tourism marketing out of our buck because we're not bringing a greater har- committee, which will be the 18 representatives, three mony between all of the eff orts. I know we've discussed from each of the six regional DMOs across the province. this before. Th ose two things are intended to help support or create In terms of the purposes of this corporation, I'm curi- that alignment. ous why the minister or if the minister thinks this cor- poration will be able to better synthesize the eff orts of S. Chandra Herbert: I'm curious. Certainly, I appre- each level, as there are currently no changes to do that ciate the discussion. I think there is still a lot more work within this bill. that needs to be done around alignment. One thing, you want to encourage the private sector to partner with Hon. P. Bell: I would argue that section 24 helps to Destination B.C. to do cooperative marketing. Th at's do that. Section 24 is the section that establishes the certainly something that has gone on in our province a marketing committee. Th e marketing committee, as the long time. member opposite I believe knows, will be made up of 18 Something I hear when I talk to business folks is that individuals — three from each of the six regions across they want the confi dence that the money will be used the province. well. And that greater alignment between the commun- [1830] ities, the regions and the province is still a strong desire Th is was a very, in my view, innovative idea that came of theirs. forward from the Tourism Industry Association task Th e minister talked about the task force and discus- force. Not my idea, but I wholeheartedly endorse it. I sions with the task force. Is this bill…? Is this Crown cor- think it's a wonderful idea. Th e principle is: it starts to poration and how it's set up…? Was this the model that bring forward the opportunity for greater alignment. they proposed from the start? Th is is kind of getting off topic, so this is kind of for the record and if anyone really cares and reads this stuff Hon. P. Bell: Just by way of a process explanation…. somewhere in the future. Of course, bills, because of privilege of all members of this House, are not allowed to be provided to private in- An Hon. Member: Some of us do. dividuals, so the task force did not see the bill prior to it being tabled. Th ey have obviously seen it now. My under- Hon. P. Bell: Some people do. standing is that they all support it and agree that that is Th e other thing that I think is worth contemplating…. where they had landed and that it's refl ective of the dis- I believe the Forestry Innovation Investment Crown cor- cussions and the recommendations that they made. poration has a very good model — and I've had a dis- cussion with the chair, Andrea Shaw, of Destination B.C. S. Chandra Herbert: I realize I should be more precise about this — that they have used to help lever funding in my language. I guess what I meant was: was the idea of from the private sector and really create the alignment a Crown corporation, with things like ministerial direc- that I think the member opposite is asking about. It prob- tive — with the model that's laid out in the bill, the gen- ably is beyond the debate of today to do that, but I think eral broad frame of the bill…. Was this their top choice? it's a very interesting model. It targets specifi c areas of Was this the proposal that they came up with fi rst? Or did forest industry marketing opportunities, from areas that they have another model that they proposed, and then are new ventures, new markets, new opportunities, new they settled on or decided to go with this, instead of that product lines, to ones that you are just trying to sustain. original model? Th en it requires diff erent percentages of funding from the private sector to support each of those activities, ran- Hon. P. Bell: As the member, I think, knows, it took ging from a place where government, or FII, will con- quite some time to go through the process. So obvious- tribute up to 90 percent of the funding for activities that ly, it was an iterative process over time. It went back and are considered new ventures and new opportunities, to forth, and people in the ministry that had worked in the places where it's 50-50, where they're contributing 50- previous Tourism B.C., as well as individuals that were cent dollars with the private sector on areas that are sus- working in the current ministry, were looking at diff erent taining activities. ideas that were being brought forward by the task force. Th at gets changed every year. Th e board sits down and [1835] reviews that and makes recommendations on how that We took that and explained: "Well, that makes sense should look. I think that's a pretty good model, actually, here. If you do that, this might be the outcome of that." if Destination B.C. wanted to try and create more align- So it was defi nitely an iterative process. It was not like the ment amongst all of the diff erent destination marketing tourism industry came and said, "Here's our recommen- organizations, the private sector — all of those diff erent dation," then went away and delivered it for you. It took, organizations. I think that's a model that will be suc- well, a year, I guess, of going back and forth and really Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13371

making sure that we could explain what we thought the When you put those two elements together, the Crown benefi ts and the disadvantages were. corporation came out as being the most reasonable mod- One of the elements that I'll be very upfront with the el to move forward on, on that basis, and the committee member opposite on is that, of course, they did pursue agreed with that. the notion of formula funding and tying it to activity. I certainly suggested to them that they should think that S. Chandra Herbert: I'm just curious. Was a mod- through, because there is the risk of declining revenues el like…? For example, in 2003, I think, Freshwater when you tie to activity. Fisheries B.C. was created out of government, as govern- I laid out a couple of other potential models for them that ment wanted to move those resources outside and make included three-year rolling funding envelopes and that sort it independent. I think at the last minute they created a of thing, but they were fi rm in their conviction that they non-profi t model with, my understanding is, a contract wanted it formula-funded. So that's where we landed. with government with a set standard of accountability Th at's a good example of a place where I certainly sug- for dollars, openness and that kind of thing, as well as gested to them that they might want to think about the accountability to those that rely on the fi sh. complications of the request that they brought forward. Was this model considered at all? And if so, why was Even though I laid out what I thought was a reasonable it rejected? argument, they said: "No, we want formula funding. Th at's what we think we've been told." So that's what we have. Hon. P. Bell: Same answer as to the fi rst question. We did look at a wide variety of models. Nothing was taken S. Chandra Herbert: I appreciate the minister shar- off the table. Everything was considered. I mean, I have ing that example. I know there has been a desire amongst to go back, but it seems to me that a not-for-profi t, ac- some in the tourism industry for a non-profi t model. tually, was the very fi rst one that was brought forward. Th ey put forward the argument that it would be better But when we went back to a principal position and said, than a Crown corporation because of a number of provi- "Where do we really start from? What's really important?" sions in how they spend their money year to year, in how I think what we all agreed with was that accountability they elect boards and those kinds of things. to the taxpayer and to the industry were the two key ele- Can the minister tell this House why he believes a ments that were really critical. Crown corporation would be a better model than a non- [1840] profi t model, as some have suggested? Th en when we started building the model around that and providing ideas and suggestions — like I said, it was Hon. P. Bell: Th ere were a number of diff erent ideas an iterative process; it went back and forth — the clear explored in terms of authorities: not-for-profi ts, Crowns, winner in that was a Crown corporation. It was the only left inside the ministry — a wide variety of diff erent op- thing that really could provide accountability back to the tions and the pluses and minuses with each one of those. taxpayer in terms of openness and transparency for how One of the things that was important to me and that tax dollars are spent. they agreed with right out the gate was that we needed accountability in two different areas. We needed ac- S. Chandra Herbert: Th anks to the minister for that. countability to the taxpayer, because ultimately this is What about…? I know when Tourism B.C. was brought tax money. Th ese are resources that are being taken out into government, the argument was that it would be of provincial revenue streams and provided to a Crown more efficient and more accountable to the taxpayer. corporation each year. How is this model, this Crown, diff erent from the for- So there had to be accountability to the taxpayer for mer Tourism B.C. model, when it was a Crown, in terms how money is being spent. Is it being spent transparently? of accountability? Are wages that are set for CEOs appropriate? You know, all of the diff erent elements of public spending. Hon. P. Bell: I was just looking through…. I know I Th en for accountability to the industry, our view and had a slide in one of my presentations that I put up, and my view and the collective view of the committee was: it was the last slide, which was what's diff erent between how do we make sure that there is accountability to the these. I was looking for it quickly. I couldn't fi nd it. industry for making sure that the money that is spent I think, really, there are 2½ pieces that are diff erent, gets maximum value? that are important. Th e fi rst one is that the original board So the two accountabilities are openness and trans- was a stakeholder board in Tourism B.C., and this is a parency — the things that you would expect with pub- professional board. lic dollars in how they are spent — to the taxpayer and Stakeholder boards. Lots of people would argue that accountability to the industry to make sure that every there are good reasons for stakeholder boards. Th ey tend dollar that is spent, is spent in the best possible way, en- to end up — particularly with an industry like tourism, couraging the maximum amount of activity. which is so diverse — kind of representing certain sub- 13372 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, March 6, 2013

sectors of the industry as opposed to the broad sector, in deciding on who their board members were. I'm sure or certain regions of the province without representing the minister didn't mean to suggest they didn't do that. My the entire province. Th eir responsibilities oft en are dif- understanding is that the skills matrix was actually very ferent, because when people get appointed to the board, similar to the same skills matrix that Destination B.C. is cur- they feel accountable back to their specifi c subsector or rently using. If that's not the case, I'd appreciate some clarity. to their region or something like that. As well, I guess, the argument — and I'm sure the min- It was also a much larger board, of course, previously. ister didn't mean it this way — of professional board ver- Th is is quite a small board, nine people. Th ere's a skills sus stakeholder board…. Certainly, we had many very matrix that's made up, so their accountabilities are quite good professionals on previous boards as well, from a diff erent. Th at's why we also said that at least fi ve of the range of perspectives. Maybe the minister could just members had to be not currently active in the industry. clarify what he meant around the skills-based matrix. Now, when the member looks, I think, at the resumés, he'll fi nd that they are well qualifi ed to take on the task. Hon. P. Bell: Th ere are a couple of diff erences. Of course, Th ey certainly have good experience, and many of them there was a much larger board. A minimum of ten was the worked in the industry at one point in time or another. I requirement previously. But also, I'll just read from section think it's a good group of people. 2 of the previous act to the member opposite: "At least 10 Th e second key thing that's a signifi cant diff erence is directors appointed under subsection (1) are to be indi- the marketing committee, three individuals — I've cov- viduals nominated and recommended by the board to the ered this off already — from each of the six regions of Lieutenant Governor in Council as representatives of the the province. tourism industry, one of whom may be a representative of [1845] the Council of Tourism Associations." I can tell the member opposite, from the perspective of So it actually sets out that individuals must be partici- someone who lives in Prince George, that I never really pants in the industry. In the old Tourism British Columbia felt all that connected with Tourism B.C., even though I Act, there was no skills matrix defi ned in the act. Th ere sat on the board, as the member knows from my resumé, may have been some work done by policy, but we don't of Tourism Prince George for a number of years. I sat on have that here. I will say that our skills matrix is by policy that board. I really never felt connected. It was this distant as well. It is by policy — a couple of diff erences there. group that really didn't care about us and wasn't paying attention to us or our needs. S. Chandra Herbert: My understanding in that com- I think this model will be very successful. Again, it's ment from the minister is that the skills-based matrix not my idea — it came from the task force — but, I think, wasn't in the old act. It's not in this act, either, as a re- a wonderful idea, because it will create that representa- quirement. It's just policy, so it's not really diff erent. What tion. You have a professional board, and then you have was in the skills-based matrix may have been diff erent, the stakeholder-driven board that then plugs in and helps or it may not have been. But both boards did use a skills- direct the marketing. Again, you get the two separate based matrix. lines of accountability. [1850] Th en the third thing that's maybe a half-diff erence is Th e diff erence is, of course, that the old act suggested that the funding formula. Previously the funding formula they all had to be from the tourism industry, whereas the was based on hotel tax revenue. We're currently in dis- new act suggests a minority of the board would be from the cussions with the industry to see if that's the best model industry — as is my understanding — with fi ve being from of capturing true activity in the industry. outside the industry. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I don't know where we're going to land on that. It may I just want to make sure that that's clear for me. default back to hotel tax revenue. Th at's possible. But the While we're just on the general question around the industry certainly has said that that does not represent purposes of the corporation, I wondered if the minis- all of the interests in the industry and may not even ac- ter had had a chance to review a submission from the curately represent the activity in the industry at any given Wilderness Tourism Association. point in time. So they've asked us to rethink that, and Sorry, was that a head…? we're looking at that. Th e biggest pieces are a professional board — a small Interjection. non-stakeholder board — and a marketing committee that provides that input. S. Chandra Herbert: Yes. Just if the minister has any responses…. I could read S. Chandra Herbert: I appreciate the answer. into the record what their concerns are, but I'll just let In talking to former board members and talking to the minister respond fi rst, to shorten the time if we can. people who worked with the organization, I understand the former Tourism B.C. also used a skills-based matrix Hon. P. Bell: Th e member, I believe, knows that the Wednesday, March 6, 2013 British Columbia Debates 13373

Tourism Industry Association is the lead organization in and objectives. British Columbia for tourism. I made it very clear that When I think back to my time in this House, I think, that would be the avenue for me to receive input. Th e too, of people like Dan Jepsen, who was the chair or the WTA had the opportunity to provide input through the CEO of the B.C. and Yukon Chamber of Mines, which Tourism Industry Association. is now the Association for Mineral Exploration B.C. He I have seen the document. I think, to be honest, that coordinated all of the advice that was provided to gov- should have been provided to the Tourism Industry ernment from the exploration side of the business, and Association a year ago when the opportunity existed. I would argue we have made tremendous headway with Th ey, for whatever reason, either chose not to, or they that industry. I would also argue that it's largely because may have and their views may not have been shared by we just have to listen to one person. others in the industry. When you have fractured industries — when you have I accept that they have some concerns, but the body industries that have many, many diff erent associations that is representative of the industry that we're dealing — it becomes extremely diffi cult. As minister, it doesn't with is the Tourism Industry Association, and that's matter how hard we work and how much we listen to the one, as minister, that I have to use to receive my the industry. Th ere are not enough hours in the day to advice. really work through the communication that we receive from many diff erent organizations. When that occurs, it S. Chandra Herbert: Th ank you to the minister for forces the minister, ultimately, to make the decision on that. what the priorities are. I rarely think that's successful. I Certainly, I think, it's always useful when you have rarely think that's a successful model. some unity amongst people for advice. Th at doesn't ap- [1855] pear to be the case within the tourism industry right now. If, in my last fi ve days and fi ve minutes in this House, I Some are very supportive, or say they're supportive, and could send out one plea to the tourism industry, it's that think this is a good fi rst step. Some are of a mixed pos- they should put the eff ort behind the Tourism Industry ition on that. Association to make sure that it is a successful organ- I understand the Tourism Industry Association of B.C. ization. Ultimately, that will create a far more eff ective is currently deciding whether or not they want to con- tourism industry and achieve better results in the future, tinue in existence, whether or not they think there's a role regardless of who the minister of the day is. I just want- for them or how they model what they do, so there's a ed to put that on the record, because I thought that was certain amount of concern right now within the indus- particularly important. try around what will happen with that advocacy organ- Now we can pass this section, and then we'll note the ization. hour. Certainly, there is a very good role for a non-partisan advocacy organization, and I think it's very important Section 4 approved. that they be non-partisan and cooperate with all sides of the House. I think, in terms of the purposes of the cor- Hon. P. Bell: Madam Chair, noting the hour, I ask poration, I can fi nish at this stage and move on to the that the committee rise, report progress and seek leave next subsection. to sit again.

Hon. P. Bell: We're just kind of getting near to the Motion approved. witching hour here, so I just wanted to take a moment before we pass this section, and then perhaps we'll go to Th e committee rose at 6:56 p.m. call the Speaker back in. But I just wanted to — given that I only have fi ve days and seven minutes left in this Th e House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. House — maybe share some thoughts or perspectives, on the member's comments, that are intended to be in a Th e Committee of the Whole, having reported progress, non-partisan way, just a factual way. was granted leave to sit again. I have had the honour of having the portfolios and responsibilities, including mining, agriculture and Hon. I. Chong moved adjournment of the House. lands, forestry and now the general economic port- folio — as well as, of course, the residual ones that are Motion approved. attached to this portfolio. Th e one thing that I am ab- solutely convinced of, having been in cabinet for nine- Mr. Speaker: Th is House stands adjourned until 10 plus years now, is that when there is a coordinated a.m. tomorrow morning. industry association that speaks with a single voice, government can do wonders to help support their goals Th e House adjourned at 6:57 p.m.

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