Second Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Monday, April 12, 2010 Afternoon Sitting Volume 13, Number 7

the honourable bill barisoff, speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Second Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General and Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Ben Stewart Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Randy Hawes Minister of Environment...... Hon. Barry Penner Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. John Yap Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Labour...... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Iain Black Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Shirley Bond

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... John van Dongen Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... John Les Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Terry Lake Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... John Rustad Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... Ron Cantelon James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Pat Pimm Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Stephanie Cadieux Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Kash Heed Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1 CONTENTS

Monday, April 12, 2010 Afternoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Statements...... 4105 Condolences for victims of Polish airplane accident Hon. G. Campbell

Introductions by Members...... 4105

Tributes...... 4105 Chester Johnson Hon. G. Campbell

Statements...... 4105 Condolences for victims of Polish airplane accident C. James

Introductions by Members...... 4105

Tributes...... 4106 B.C. elementary schools table tennis championships R. Lee

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 4106 Terry Fox D. Horne Vaisakhi parade and celebrations H. Bains G.P. Vanier Secondary School improv theatre championship win D. McRae National Environmental Education Week R. Fleming Telestroke program at Chilliwack General Hospital J. Les Turban-tying competition in Surrey S. Hammell

Tabling Documents...... 4109 Report of the Chief Electoral Officer on Recommendations for Legislative Change

Oral Questions...... 4109 Role of T. Richard Turner in B.C. Place roof project C. James Hon. G. Campbell Hon. K. Krueger S. Chandra Herbert B. Ralston N. Macdonald J. Kwan B.C. Liberal Party fundraising with independent power producers J. Horgan Hon. B. Lekstrom R. Fleming Funding for farmworker safety programs R. Chouhan Hon. M. Coell Oral Questions (continued) School district funding and staffing levels R. Austin Hon. M. MacDiarmid Status of therapeutics initiative A. Dix Hon. K. Falcon

Petitions...... 4114 M. Sather N. Macdonald

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills...... 4114 Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act (continued) B. Routley J. McIntyre D. Routley D. Horne D. Thorne Hon. R. Hawes N. Simons Hon. P. Bell C. Trevena

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 4149 Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture and Lands (continued) Hon. S. Thomson K. Corrigan L. Popham B. Simpson V. Huntington D. Donaldson R. Chouhan J. Brar H. Bains M. Sather 4105

MONDAY, APRIL 12, 2010 great British Columbian. Chester Johnson passed away last month. The House met at 1:35 p.m. Chester was a great builder, a determined vision- ary and one of the best friends the province of British [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Columbia could have asked for. He was someone who saw the potential of our province and, most importantly, Statements the potential of the people who live here, and he always helped us reach for that potential. CONDOLENCES FOR VICTIMS He led the evolution of Whistler from a small resort OF POLISH AIRPLANE ACCIDENT town to an internationally renowned tourist destination. He helped us win the right to host the 2010 Olympic and Hon. G. Campbell: On behalf of all British Paralympic Games. He was the chair of B.C. Hydro. He Columbians, I'd like to express our condolences to the was the chair of the Vancouver Airport Authority, and people of Poland for the tragic losses they suffered in he was a leader in the forest industry. this weekend's plane crash in Russia. The terrible crash Chester always put the public interest ahead of his own killed 96, including Poland's President, Lech Kaczynski. personal interests. He's been recognized with some of Those who perished in the crash included top govern- the highest honours that British Columbia and Canada ment aides and lawmakers, military personnel, religious have to offer: the Order of Canada, the Order of British representatives, national historic figures and many more. Columbia and the Queen's 50th anniversary medal. The plane was travelling to Katyn to make the 70th an- Chester will be missed by his friends and his family, niversary of the horrific 1940 massacre of Polish officials but his memory will live forever in British Columbia. during World War II. British Columbians of Polish descent are in mourn- Statements ing today, and I know that this Legislature would like to send out our prayers and best wishes to all of them. CONDOLENCES FOR VICTIMS I ask all British Columbians to think of them in their OF POLISH AIRPLANE ACCIDENT hearts and prayers as well. This is a difficult time for the Polish people, and I'd like them to know that they have C. James: I'd like to add our condolences to the people the support of British Columbia's Legislature — all of us of Poland. This truly is a time when you see the strength here — and the people of British Columbia as they work of our global world and our global communities, when to overcome this incredible tragedy that's taken place at you have seen people from the Polish community and the heart of their nation. all people of the world come together to pass along our sympathies and our regrets to the people of Poland for Introductions by Members this incredible plane crash and incredible tragedy for their country. Hon. G. Campbell: Hon. Speaker, I am also pleased This plane, as was said by the Premier, not only had today to stand here and welcome back to the precinct the the President of Poland and his wife but also govern- current CKNW radio host Christy Clark, a former mem- ment officials, business leaders, community leaders from ber of this Legislature, a former Minister of Education. Poland, so this truly is a tragedy. I want to pass along, as She's joining us here in Victoria to help promote Pink the people of Poland mourn and as Polish communities Shirt Day, an important day to raise awareness of bully- across British Columbia mourn, that our thoughts and ing and to help remove it from our society. prayers will be with all of them as the country rebuilds This Pink Shirt Day is on April 14, and I know we'll and as they go through this tragedy. all be participating. We all have an important part to play to ensure that bullying stops here in our lives, in Introductions by Members our institutions and in our communities. I look forward to seeing all of our MLAs in their pink shirts. I thank Ms. L. Reid: We are joined today by some students Clark for helping raise awareness of this issue, and I ask from Linfield College in Oregon. They are in fact part the House to please make her welcome. of a comparative politics class, and they are studying Canada. They see this field trip as an opportunity to Tributes see our system in action as well as to have direct inter- actions with Canadian politicians and citizens in order CHESTER JOHNSON to better understand Canadian politics, political culture and Canada-U.S. relations. Hon. G. Campbell: Finally, it is with sadness and re- It was my pleasure to speak with them this morning. gret that I rise to inform the House of the passing of a They asked fabulous questions. They're joined by their 4106 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

professor, Dawn Nowacki, and I'd ask the House to I'd like to also acknowledge Lori Blackman and the please make them welcome. city staff of PowellR iver along with the mayor and coun- cil for doing an excellent job. The concert in the evening Hon. S. Bond: I'm delighted today to have as a guest was wonderful. Don James, Order of Canada recipient, in the Legislature someone who has been an absolutely conducted a wonderful choir. Lovely singing, Celtic exceptional public servant. He actually has a distin- music. It was enjoyed by everyone, and I'd like to thank guished career with over 38 years with the provincial the city of Powell River on behalf of the House. government. The majority of that time was spent with the Ministry of Transportation, or Highways, and he has Hon. B. Stewart: It gives me great honour to intro- done exemplary work. duce His Worship Mayor Doug Findlater from the [1340] newest municipality in British Columbia, the district of He has been a regional director in all three Ministry West Kelowna, and his chief administrative officer, Jason of Transportation regions — so all across the province Johnson, who are here in the precinct today to do work — and one of his final projects was actually work- and meet with other ministers. ing on the Olympic rings project. He was responsible for the thinking and design in the LED Olympic lights S. Cadieux: I have the great pleasure today of intro- and then turning them very quickly into agitos for the ducing my first guest in the House. In the gallery Paralympics, a spectacular accomplishment of which he today is one of my best friends and my mother, Patricia is very proud. Homewood. Please make her welcome. I know that you would want to help me today in hon- ouring Tracy Cooper. Many of you know him, I know. Tributes He's done a great job for all of us in British Columbia. As a side note, I want you to know that on Monday, B.C. ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS Tracy has qualified and will be running in the Boston TABLE TENNIS CHAMPIONSHIPS Marathon. So congratulations. R. Lee: I would like the House to join me to con- Hon. M. Polak: Joining us in the House today gratulate my daughter, Leanne Lee, for winning the B.C. are Louise Smith, Bret Rob, Penny Petersen, Robin Elementary Schools Table Tennis Championships. McNaughton and Sue Khazaie. I had the pleasure of get- ting to know each of them along with their colleague Rod Statements Santiago over the lunch hour, learning more about the (Standing Order 25B) services provided by Abbotsford Community Services. Would the House please make them welcome. TERRY FOX

N. Simons: It's a pleasure today to introduce in the D. Horne: One of the Tri-Cities' and Canada's most House my constituency assistant from Davis Bay, part of well-known citizens is being remembered today. Thirty the lower Sunshine Coast. She is a former child protec- years ago today, Terry Fox began his remarkable journey, tion social worker, and she's been excellent at both those dipping his foot into the Atlantic Ocean and beginning employments. I'd like to ask the House to please wel- his journey to go across Canada to raise money for can- come her here today — Kim Tournat. cer research. [1345] J. Les: I have the very great pleasure to announce Terry was determined to raise $1 million, a feat which the arrival of another granddaughter. Ashlyn Elizabeth many at the time saw as overly ambitious. It didn't take Kooyman was born on the 2nd of April, on Good Friday. long for the nation to get behind this young man and his She clocked in at about eight pounds. She's doing very cause. Terry spent 143 days running a total of 5,300 kilo- well. She's the first little girl for my daughter Sharon and metres, a marathon each and every day. The Marathon her husband, Ron, and of course a little sister for her big of Hope was to raise more than $24 million in just two brother, Nicholas. I'd like everyone to help me welcome years. This equalled a dollar for every Canadian at that her into the world. time. Terry received the Order of Canada in a ceremony in Port Coquitlam, and the province honoured Terry N. Simons: I also want to acknowledge the Minister with the highest award, the Order of the Dogwood. of Community and Rural Development and the Minister The Terry Fox Foundation is responsible for rais- of Healthy Living and Sport, along with the Leader of ing close to $20 million for cancer research each year, the Opposition and MLAs from the opposition who totalling more than $500 million worldwide. The recent were all in attendance in Powell River at the Association tribute to Terry Fox at the Paralympic Games provided of Vancouver Island and Coastal Communities. an opportunity to witness not only his contribution Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4107

to cancer research in Canada but his stature globally. national championship in the past two years. The team Thanks to Terry Fox and the money that his dream has been competing for several years now under the continues to raise each year, we have made huge steps brilliant tutelage of teacher Lori Mazey and local the- forward in beating this disease, but there's still much atre guru Robinson Wilson. These two individuals have work to be done. taken a combination of skills, focus and fun to help make Vanier a theatre powerhouse. VAISAKHI PARADE AND CELEBRATIONS To reach the national championships, Vanier had to compete at the Vancouver Island regional champion- H. Bains: I am pleased to stand here today to talk ships against eight other schools, and then after winning about Ross Street Temple Vaisakhi parade. This Saturday there, they travelled to Ottawa in March to compete in the Sikh community joined together in Vancouver to the nationals. celebrate Vaisakhi, the birth of Khalsa, and many mem- At the national tournament 20 teams from 14 regions bers of this House also were on hand to participate in came together to vie for the title. Vanier was dominant this event. on March 24, winning their semifinals by 60 points. The People of all ages, of all backgrounds, came together top five teams from the semis then competed on March to celebrate the rich history of the contribution of the 27 in the finals. Vanier ended that night with 1,074 Sikh community. There were children playing the points which assured them first place. Close behind dhol. Many community clubs and the Indo-Canadian them, with 20 points behind, was Guelph Collegiate Vancouver police officers were taking part in the parade. Vocational Institute. Family and friends were out together, handing out free The Vanier team was made up of captains Anthea food and drinks to all, and live performances took place Morritt, Paige Fraser, Kristie Gunther; players Alyssa at various stages along the parade route. Bell, Connor Lucas, Jasmine Ruff, Andraya Walters, The vibrant festival of Vaisakhi is considered to be an Dylan Sullivan, Dan Comeau, Mallory Gibson, Bri extremely important festival in India for a number of Summers, Chloe Naswell; and team alternates Alex reasons. Apart from being important for the farmers as Christensen and Ian McConnell. a harvest festival, the festival is of prime importance in I've had the privilege of knowing many members of Sikhism as a foundation day of Khalsa Panth. this team. I know their hard work and passion that they In 1699 something happened in a tiny village called bring to the sport. Not only are these great young men Anand Pur Sahib where the tenth guru of the , Shri and women, but they are skilled at improv, and they're Guru Gobind Singh Ji, decided to end the structure that also great role models in the community. separated and divided the society for centuries on the I've been fortunate to have a long relationship with basis of caste. He did not only preach those words but G.P. Vanier. I went to preschool there. I graduated from put a structure in place for the coming generations to the school, and I taught there for 14 years. The school follow. He brought out five Piaras from five different has always had a strong academic and athletic tradition. castes, and after serving them amrit, he asked them to The impressive trades programs have given countless serve him the same. students both job skills and confidence to enter the Then after giving them all the same name, Singh, he workforce, and the school also has a very strong trad- declared the end of the caste system and started a soci- ition in nurturing the arts. ety that is based on equality where everyone would be [1350] valued based on their character rather than what social G.P. Vanier's winning the national improv tourna- structure they belonged to. ment only serves to reinforce the importance that the This year tens of thousands of people came out to cele- school and the community place on the arts. I'd like this brate the 311th year of the Khalsa. I would like to take chamber to congratulate the students, their coaches and this opportunity to thank the executive members of the parents, the community who came together and helped Khalsa Diwan Society of Vancouver and hundreds of vol- the school and the performers win this honour. unteers for their hard work in organizing yet another very successful community event, which showed the values of national ENVIRONMENTAL these efforts. There's another one coming this Saturday, EDUCATION WEEK on April 17, in Surrey, and I invite all of you to come and join us in Surrey for another wonderful event. R. Fleming: National Environmental Education Week takes place this week from April 11 to 17. This year's G.P. VANIER SECONDARY SCHOOL theme is "Be water and energy wise," which speaks to IMPROV THEATRE CHAMPIONSHIP WIN our need for greater conservation in our lives, in our homes, in our places of work and in our businesses. D. McRae: I want to congratulate G.P. Vanier This is the largest organized environmental educa- Secondary School's improv team on winning its second tion event in North America. Environmental Education 4108 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

Week increases the educational impact of Earth Day later Telestroke is an excellent technology with incredible this month by creating a full week of educational prep- outcomes. It brings specialists and doctors hundreds aration, learning and activities in K-to-12 classrooms of kilometres apart face to face, and it bridges the gap and in places like nature centres and zoos, museums between patients and the very best specialists avail- and aquariums. able. I know that Chilliwack General is excited to have By participating in Environmental Education Week, Telestroke available, and they can now ensure that it is students in my constituency and elsewhere across this able to offer patients the best care possible while often province are being encouraged to make a difference in avoiding the need to transfer patients by ambulance to their schools and communities. World Fisheries Trust, Vancouver and elsewhere. which is a local non-profit education organization in As for me, I'm glad I was only acting the part of a stroke my community, hosted the kickoff event at the Gorge patient. But it is reassuring to know that Telestroke is waterway education centre yesterday on Sunday, April there for our community. In the past I've personally 11, from 1 to 3 p.m., to begin National Environmental seen how friends and acquaintances have been devas- Education Week in Victoria. tated by the results of a stroke. Telestroke will help to Along with the Galiano Conservancy, the Sierra Club alleviate and avoid those impacts for many patients and and the compost education centre, this week they will their families. For that, many people in Chilliwack will be showcasing hands-on education programs and dis- be very grateful. plays that will be available in a variety of public locations and in our schools. The event is designed to celebrate TURBAN-TYING COMPETITION and build awareness about the many opportunities for IN SURREY our citizens to be part of environmental education and stewardship in the capital region. S. Hammell: Hon. Speaker, about 3,000 people from With very limited funding, the Gorge waterway edu- the diverse city of Surrey and the surrounding com- cation centre has seen over 500 people volunteer their munities came together to enjoy the eighth annual time and come through their doors in less than two years. turban-tying contest or competition. There were six dif- The centre has delivered over 40 different programs to ferent categories of competitors based on age. nearly a thousand students and community members The contestants tying their turbans were judged on who are now trained, knowledgable and skilled in en- the form, the time taken and on not allowing the seven vironmental stewardship. They're aware that we live in a metres of cloth to touch the floor. The form a well-tied time of climate change and adaptation. turban will take, as I have now learned, is having the Mr. Speaker, I invite all members of this House to cloth's apex right in the centre of the forehead with neat join me in applauding the grass-roots organization, the and equally spaced folds. A well-tied turban will not al- sponsors and the many volunteers who put the 2010 low one strand of hair from the head to be shown under event together. I also want to take this opportunity in the turban. the House today to express my support for the great [1355] work that the Gorge waterway education centre has The Surrey turban-tying contest is the largest of its been doing. kind in North America and was covered by the ethnic and the mainstream provincial media. The event was TELESTROKE PROGRAM AT also attended by celebrities from the sports and enter- CHILLIWACK GENERAL HOSPITAL tainment fields, and the odd politician also wandered through. Kuldip Singh with Radio Sher-E- de- J. Les: Last Friday I had the opportunity to play the scribes the event as religious, cultural and educational role of a stroke victim to help launch the Telestroke in- for Sikh and non-Sikh alike. itiative at the Chilliwack General Hospital. Although I The idea for the competition grew out of the negative was fortunately only acting, I was able to put myself into reaction shown by some to people wearing turbans after the shoes of someone who had experienced a stroke. the terrorist attack in the U.S. on September 11. There Telestroke allows neurology specialists at a tertiary was then much confusion between the Sikh and the hospital to examine, diagnose and help treat patients Taliban, who both wear turbans. Radio Sher-E-Punjab at other hospitals. With Telestroke a patient is able to felt a turban-tying contest might draw attention to the "see" a specialist within minutes of arriving in emer- ritual of the dastar, and the competition was meant to gency. Doctors at Chilliwack General connect by video develop self-awareness, self-esteem and self-confidence. conference with neurologists working out of Vancouver The competition encourages kids that it's okay to be General Hospital and consult directly in order to make different. quick decisions for their stroke patients. The faster a Hon. Speaker, kudos to Sher-E-Punjab radio station stroke is treated, the less brain and neurological damage for conceiving the idea and organizing the contest. I in- a patient will sustain. vite everyone to the ninth annual next year. Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4109

Tabling Documents "I should call the minister responsible. We decided it was my role this time around." Mr. Turner, the chair of ICBC, Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, I have the honour to was handpicked by Paragon to lobby the minister. present the Report of the Chief Electoral Officer on Again, my question is to the Premier. Is this the conduct Recommendations for Legislative Change. of a chair of a major Crown corporation? Is that conduct acceptable to this Premier and his government? Oral Questions Hon. K. Krueger: Is there anything ethical about lay- ROLE OF T. RICHARD TURNER IN ing a matter, submitting a complaint to the registrar of B.C. PLACE ROOF PROJECT lobbyists and then wanting to interfere with his work by raising the matter subsequently in this House? C. James: Every employee and appointee of govern- ment has to live up to a code of conduct. The code of S. Chandra Herbert: Let's look at the facts. The conduct says that an employee is in conflict if he or she Minister of Tourism confirmed that he got a call on his "benefits from or is reasonably perceived by the public cell phone from Mr. Turner urging him to ensure that to have benefited from a government transaction over the $563 million project for the retractable roof would which he or she can influence decisions." go ahead as it was, according to the minister, essential My question is to the Premier. Does he agree with this for Mr. Turner's casino company. code of conduct? [1400] My question is to the minister. Over a week ago the Hon. G. Campbell: Yes, hon. Speaker. minister promised this House that he would provide more information on Mr. Turner's role. Will the min- Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a ister stand up today and tell this House what meetings supplemental. with government were organized by Mr. Turner, who attended, what was discussed and when did those meet- C. James: As chair of ICBC, T. Richard Turner is ings happen — as the minister promised to share with vested with the public trust. He heads up one of the the House? most important Crown corporations in the province. As such, he has a responsibility to live up to the highest Hon. K. Krueger: When the critic for the official standard. Yet Mr. Turner called the Minister of Tourism opposition submitted his complaint to the registrar of in connection with a decision about a major govern- lobbyists, surely he laid out his questions and the things ment project awarded to a company in which he was a that he believes in that submission. director, a project that involved hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. My question is to the Premier. Does he see anything wrong with that, or is that acceptable conduct from a S. Chandra Herbert: I guess it should come as no government appointee? surprise that this government wouldn't understand a question about ethics and a code of conduct and refuses Hon. K. Krueger: TheL eader of the Opposition must to release information on this deal which they promised be aware that her critic put this matter before the regis- to release to this House. trar of lobbyists last week, having thoroughly canvassed Again, my question to the minister: what's there to it with me before that. It is now inappropriate for us to hide? Release the dates. Release the meeting informa- discuss the matter in this chamber. tion. Release who was there. This is what the minister promised within estimates debate two weeks ago. Why Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a fur- doesn't he do it today? ther supplemental. Hon. K. Krueger: What comes as no surprise is that C. James: I don't suppose it would surprise the pub- this opposition cannot follow the rules of the House as lic to find out that this government doesn't believe it's they've failed to follow other rules all their lives. appropriate to talk about a code of conduct. Ethics are important to the public, and the government should be Interjections. talking about it. According to news reports over the weekend, T. Mr. Speaker: Members. Richard Turner said that after the May election he be- came concerned that the province might be waffling over B. Ralston: The Minister of Tourism made a public the retractable roof. He and his fellow directors decided: commitment here in the Legislature to release the infor- 4110 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

mation that my colleague has set out. These are objective Mr. Speaker: Member. facts about meetings that took place, who arranged them The member has a supplemental. and when they took place. So they're uniquely in the possession of the minister and his ministry. Why will the N. Macdonald: A fairly straightforward question. Does minister not release those to the public as he promised to the minister feel that the code of conduct was followed? do here in the Legislature more than a week ago? Hon. K. Krueger: Well, this member, like the one Hon. K. Krueger: The matter was canvassed between the who questioned before him, should take his false and critic and myself the week before last. A commitment was scurrilous and cowardly behaviour out in the hallway. made that PavCo would provide a letter within two weeks. If he wants to level accusations at Mr. Turner or any Two weeks is next Wednesday, and he will have his letter. other civil servant, he should go out there where he's in a forum where they can speak for themselves, because Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. his group, the opposition, have made sure that it's now inappropriate for me to answer questions in this House. B. Ralston: Mr. Turner's office as the chair of a major public Crown corporation carries a great deal of public J. Kwan: I have a straight-up question for the Minister trust. It's a very important office in the province, and it's of Tourism. Could he please advise this House if Mr. important that that office and those duties be discharged Turner followed the code of conduct set out by this with integrity. So my question is to the Premier. If the government? actions of Mr. Turner don't violate the code of conduct, what would? Hon. K. Krueger: This member has been in this House longer than anyone else on those benches, except Hon. K. Krueger: This matter has been put before the the member two seats to her right, and she surely knows registrar of lobbyists on a complaint by the critic. We better than to try and pursue this line of questioning will fully cooperate with the registrar of lobbyists, who when her colleague has put the matter in a complaint to is now responsible to investigate this matter. The oppos- the registrar of lobbyists. ition should really know better than to be following this line of questioning, let alone attack an honourable ser- Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. vant of British Columbia in this chamber in their typical cowardly way. J. Kwan: The Premier just confirmed that an employee I suggest that the opposition Finance critic should take is in conflict if he or she benefits from or is reasonably himself out in the hallway and make those accusations perceived by the public to have benefited from a gov- so that Mr. Turner can defend himself appropriately. ernment transaction over which he or she can influence decisions. N. Macdonald: Well, I think we've all heard some ri- My question to the minister is quite simple. It's not about diculous defences in this House, but this has got to top the registrar's office or the lobbyists registration; it's about the list. The fact of the matter is that this minister knows the government's own set of code of conduct. In the minis- what has taken place here. ter's opinion, did Mr. Turner violate the government's own Let's be clear. T. Richard Turner is not only a B.C. set of code of conduct that's set out by his employees? Liberal insider and donor, T. Richard Turner not only has a financial interest in the casino that we're talking about, Hon. K. Krueger: The opinion that matters now is but he is also in this case — and, I think, most import- the opinion of the registrar of lobbyists, to whom the op- antly for this House — chair of ICBC. There is a code of position has referred this question. conduct that he should be living up to. He is not. Does the minister think it is acceptable that that take place? B.C. LIBERAL PARTY FUNDRAISING WITH INDEPENDENT POWER PRODUCERS Hon. K. Krueger: This opposition has told us before that they can come to conclusions about environmental J. Horgan: Let's just see how elastic our ethics on that assessments before they're over, court actions before side of the House can be. On January 18 of this year, they're over. Now they refer a matter to the registrar of on the eve of the announcement of which companies lobbyists and then want to pursue it in this forum. would be awarded contracts by B.C. Hydro, the Minister [1405] of Energy and the Minister for Climate Action held a What is going to be required for this opposition to fundraiser. An invitation was sent from the Independent understand how to do its job after all these years? Power Producers of B.C. to all of its members saying: "This will be an opportunity for IPPBC members to Interjection. spend time with the ministers." Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4111

My question is to the Premier. Does he believe it's on the eve of an award for multi-billion-dollar contracts, appropriate on the eve of announcing contracts worth we have the B.C. Liberal Party taking the opportunity to hundreds of millions of dollars for his ministers to shake organize yet another fundraising shakedown. down those very companies for donations? The minister doesn't see a problem in any of this, but I want to ask the minister here today. Will he tell us, on the Hon. B. Lekstrom: As I said before, we've canvassed the eve of issuing these electricity contracts, how much did his issue of how contracts are looked at by B.C. Hydro. It's a party shake down from energy companies in January 2010, very rigorous process. They go through it.I have the utmost and will he disclose that in the House here today? respect and confidence in the men and women that do that work. There are independent evaluators of these contracts Interjections. that are looked at. I think they do an incredible job. I think all British Columbians should be thankful for Mr. Speaker: Members. the work that they do on all of our behalf, and I have the Just take your seat for a second. utmost confidence and the utmost trust in the people that look at those contracts before determining whether Interjections. to award or not award a contract. Mr. Speaker: Members. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Minister.

J. Horgan: Well, today we learned that ten of the 14 Hon. B. Lekstrom: Let me start off again by reiter- firms that were awarded energy purchase agreements this ating that the process that is used to evaluate these year over the past five years had given $385,000 to theB .C. contracts is very rigorous. It is reviewed by independ- Liberal Party — not an insignificant amount of money. ent third parties — someone that I think all of us can Again, my question is to the Premier, and it's, again, a very have a great deal of respect and time for. I have that re- simple one, and it goes to the heart of the ethics of his gov- spect for most British Columbians, to be honest. I think ernment. Does he believe it's appropriate for his ministers everybody goes out and tries to build a better province. to shake down procurement possibilities from companies I think all of us in this building are doing that. that are bidding on clean calls at B.C. Hydro? But let me go back. It's extremely interesting, and I [1410] won't lose the opportunity. I'm going to encourage the member to do his homework here — to go back and Hon. B. Lekstrom: I find it interesting that the mem- check to see the donations that these energy companies ber seems to be somewhat opposed to clean, green gave to the New Democrat Party prior to the last elec- energy. But if you're alleging something inappropriate, tion. Please do that, Member. I would encourage you to go outside and make those, because those allegations are not…. What I will follow Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. through with is…. Interjections. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second. R. Fleming: The minister doesn't get it. People in Continue, Minister. British Columbia trust B.C. Hydro. They do not trust this government. British Columbians know how this Hon. B. Lekstrom: I do find it somewhat hypocritical government works. When a donor wants a retract- from his comments when, in fact, one of these com- able roof as part of a bid process, he phones a cabinet panies that made, as the member indicated, significant minister. When a minister wants to raise cash from an contributions to the government has made a significant industry that's waiting for contracts, when a minister contribution to the NDP on the eve of the last election. wants to raise money…. So do your homework, Member. Interjections. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister. Members. R. Fleming: We know that this party pocketed a whop- ping $600,000 in IPP-related donations in 2009, and here, R. Fleming: When a minister wants to raise…. 4112 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

Mr. Speaker: Just wait. Just take your seat for a in the future when he's cutting funding to the program second. which saves workers' lives? Continue, Member. Hon. M. Coell: I'd first like to reiterate my condol- R. Fleming: When a minister wants to raise cash from ences to the families who lost relatives in that tragic an industry that's waiting on contracts, the B.C. Liberal accident and also to the people who were hurt. Party targets them for a shakedown. We take the coroner's report very seriously. We have [1415] responded to it, but I would remind the member that Now, the minister said that he would like to see…. He in 2007 we had an integrated approach to farmworker criticized parties for taking donations. Well, I would like safety. We have a testing program that has tested over a to hear the minister's opinion on this. People are tired of thousand vehicles. In 2007, 30 percent of those vehicles big money running politics. They're tired of it running failed. In 2008, 11 percent failed. In 2009, 10 percent this government. failed. The latest survey is 4 percent failed. We're working Will the minister put on the record today…? Will he to get compliance with this program, and it's working. support cleaning up his clean power call by banning cor- porate and union donations to political parties in British Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Columbia altogether for all time? R. Chouhan: The reality is that the minister's own inter- Interjections. agency that was established in 2007 has recommended that these programs must continue to save the lives of farm- Mr. Speaker: We're not going to continue, Minister. workers. They have not done it. In fact, the government is now cutting funding for all of these programs, including Interjections. the voluntary inspection in the field for these vans. My question again: if the minister is serious about Mr. Speaker: Members. protecting farmworkers, why is he cutting the funding Minister. for these programs which really protect farmworkers' lives? Hon. B. Lekstrom: First of all, we should clarify that as he indicated in his talk, I didn't criticize fundraising. I Hon. M. Coell: I think the member knows that we think both sides of this House utilize fundraising. That's legislated the use of seatbelts in all of those vehicles. We part of the political process. have checked, as I said, over a thousand of them. We What I do want to capture is something we do agree continue to check, with an integrated strategy. We're on. People do trust B.C. Hydro. I think it's a great Crown corporation, one our party fully supports, and we also getting compliance. Compliance is what will save lives support clean, green energy development. in the future. I'm not quite sure. I think the member's a little bit [1420] confused. He gets up and asks a question about fund- raising, about how that could actually affect an EPA, SCHOOL DISTRICT FUNDING AND when in fact it's B.C. Hydro — and independent people STAFFING LEVELS that B.C. Hydro contracts to — that evaluates the energy purchase agreements, looks at them, does their due dili- R. Austin: Last week school districts around B.C. an- gence and then makes a recommendation to move those nounced cuts to address shortfalls in education funding. forward or not. Here are a few examples: Vancouver school district, 30 job cuts in instructional support staff and 113 teaching FUNDING FOR staff; Saanich school district, 23 full-time, including 13 FARMWORKER SAFETY PROGRAMS teaching positions; Kamloops, 30 teachers, five princi- pals and 21 support staff;R ichmond, over 100 positions. R. Chouhan: While the Minister of Labour claimed My question to the minister is this: how do these cuts that he has taken action on recommendations from the that directly affect the classroom square with the B.C. coroner's jury into the tragic deaths of three farmwork- Liberals' commitment to protect public education? ers, the minister's words just don't match with his action. This year the B.C. Liberals are cutting programs like the Hon. M. MacDiarmid: Let's start with something voluntary inspection check program. The inspection that we agree on. The member opposite said on March rate has been reduced by 60 percent since 2007. 17 — this is the critic for Education, "We have one of the To the Minister of Labour: how can he say that he's best public education systems, probably, in the world," taking actions to prevent such tragedies from occurring and that's…. Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4113

Interjections. I'd like to point out that the last time the Vancouver school board saw a reduction in their funding was in Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister. 1998-99 under the NDP.

Hon. M. MacDiarmid: Let's talk about one of the dis- Interjections. tricts that the member opposite has mentioned. That's the Vancouver school district, a district that is facing sig- Mr. Speaker: Members. nificant enrolment decline, as are many other districts [1425] around the province. This is a district that has, actually, 7,000 empty spaces. Like many places around the prov- STATUS OF THERAPEUTICS INITIATIVE ince, there are classrooms that are 50, 60, 70, 80 percent empty. Imagine a school where eight out of every ten A. Dix: A question for the Minister of Health. UBC's classrooms are empty. therapeutics initiative has long put British Columbia on There is no question that this is difficult, and it makes the cutting edge of prescription drug policy. The minis- things difficult for districts. It means we have to do ter will know that. It's saved lives, and it's saved money. I things differently. think the minister may have heard it. My question is very simple to the minister. This Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. agency, the initiative, has garnered British Columbia an international reputation, and yet the government is R. Austin: It's true. We do agree on that. But here's getting rid of its role in the drug approval process and the difference.O n this side we want to protect it. On that threatening its grant. Will the government restore the side you want to chip away at it. therapeutics initiative to its appropriate role in the drug Here's what the former dean of education at Simon approval process, and will it restore its grant this year? Fraser, Professor Shaker, has to say: "The cutting that's gone on in the past couple of years has been severe, and Hon. K. Falcon: Actually, the member would know now they're in a kind of crisis management. I think that in 2007 there was a Pharmaceutical Task Force. The they're desperate. There's just no place to go. They're cut- Pharmaceutical Task Force was made up of eminent ting to bare bones. What was a school system in British British Columbians. [Laughter.] Apparently, that's humor- Columbia that the world would come to study is now ous to the members opposite. It looked at how we can going on life support." ensure we have a rigorous, ongoing drug review process in Again to the minister: are these cuts to teaching staff British Columbia. What was recommended by…. your idea of protecting education in this province? Interjections. Hon. M. MacDiarmid: There is no question that school districts around the province are working hard Mr. Speaker: Members. for the students in this province and that they are chal- Continue, Minister. lenged. It is largely because of the profound loss of students we've had. By this fall we're expecting thou- Hon. K. Falcon: What was recommended by the sands and thousands fewer students — probably 60,000 task force was that the review of new drugs should go fewer students. through a process that is more transparent, more open, Let's talk about some of the things that have been said that includes patient input, that allows professionals with by school districts. Today the former NDP Minister of clinical expertise from around the world to also have an Education, , had this to say. This is what he ability to have input into that process. But I'll tell you had to say about the claims the Vancouver school board this. We will continue to have a very rigorous process for is making: "The shortfall is a fiction on paper. It's not a drug review in the province of British Columbia. real deficit. It's a wonderful game that school districts use to jam Ministers of Education." Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

Interjections. A. Dix: It's the fox in the chicken coop. The minis- ter and the government put the chief lobbyist for the Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat, Minister. pharmaceutical industry in charge to decide the fate of Members. an agency which tries to constrain the excesses of the Continue, Minister. pharmaceutical industry. Not surprisingly, they recom- mended that the therapeutics initiative be eliminated. Hon. M. MacDiarmid: In fact, we've increased edu- This is an agency that saves lives, that garners inter- cation funding this year for the ninth year in a row, and national respect, and the minister wants to get rid of it. 4114 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

He wants to put British Columbia drug policy back. He HST was not on their radar. That's what they said — not wants to damage the long-term prospects for the entire on their radar. And now this government has taken to public health system with this ridiculous decision. How flying under the radar. can the minister justify putting the public interest so low on his list of priorities? [L. Reid in the chair.]

Hon. K. Falcon: Naturally, the NDP, of course, has al- With an absolutely thundering reversal of their polit- ready written his narrative. He ignores the fact that the ical position, they now intend to shake down all of the dean of medicine at UBC was part of the committee, that B.C. consumers — $1.9 billion of consumer tax just to a former Auditor General was part of the committee; ig- start with, and then escalating billions after that. B.C. nores completely the recommendations coming out of the consumers are going to pay and pay and pay some more, Pharmaceutical Task Force; believes, apparently, that there's year after year, day after day — tax, tax and more harm- no possibility whatsoever of improving processes. ful tax. The fact of the matter is that the new process will be And guess who's going to be benefiting. Guess who rigorous, but it will also be transparent and open and will be benefiting. If you would be thinking, "It's the will ensure that patients and other professionals have op- people of British Columbia," you would be dead wrong, portunity to have input into the review of drugs. That's hon. Speaker. No, it's the multinational and corporate exactly what's going to happen in British Columbia. pals of this government who are going to be winning the HST lottery. [End of question period.] Interjection. M. Sather: I seek leave to present a petition. Deputy Speaker: Member. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. B. Routley: They'll be receiving over $2 billion in tax Petitions cuts — truckloads of cash — all courtesy of the consum- ers of British Columbia, who will now be required to pay M. Sather: I have with me a petition signed by 500 the former corporate tax bill of $1.9 billion. That's just to folks in Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows calling on the start with. Yes, that's the plan. As a result of this bill, this government to scrap the HST. Liberal government will give the people of B.C. the tax bill for the corporate share of the provincial tax burden. N. Macdonald: I have a bundle of petitions from That's what this bill will allow this government to do. Canal Flats against the HST. This should be getting to- The tragic reality is that none of this harmful tax will wards the end of them, as we come into a different set of even help to reduce this Liberal government's growing petitions that are going around on the HST. deficit. It won't help to reduce the B.C. debt, which is now headed towards $40 billion, and it will not help Orders of the Day to reduce this province's $50 billion in contractual obligations. Hon. M. de Jong: I call, in Committee A, Committee This harmful tax. British Columbians will pay even of Supply — for the information of members, the ongoing more while the Liberals continue to slash, cut and de- estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture — and, in this stroy services to British Columbians. And they wonder chamber, continued second reading debate on Bill 9. why British Columbians are mad. [1430] This harmful tax will be forced on all British Columbians. They're going to be forced to pay a lot more Second Reading of Bills for a lot less service. British Columbians are already fa- cing a multitude of cost increases that are coming at Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate them in all directions. Bank reports show that consumer and Transition Act debt is already at record levels in British Columbia. Yet (continued) this government thinks they can just download billions more onto B.C. consumers, who are already stretched to B. Routley: ThisH ST is going to hurt, not help, British the max. That is why so many British Columbians are Columbians. More than 80 percent of British Columbians frustrated and upset with this government. Consumers are opposed to this harmful tax. British Columbians are are already hurting. angry and feeling tricked by this government. With this HST, it's just more corporate welfare. This Clearly this Liberal government has no mandate to bill makes absolutely no sense in terms of helping British bring in the HST. During the election they said that the Columbians. This Liberal government is absolutely fix- Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4115

ated on the notion that if they just give enough cash on their election platform. Then this government went away to all their big multinational and corporate pals, back on their word. surely they will reinvest here in B.C. and trickle down This government has never even called for a proper some things for British Columbians. independent study on the impact of the HST on the B.C. [1435] economy. They had not done any cost-benefit analysis Why, the Liberals are absolutely sure the big corpora- on the application of the HST before they signed a deal tions will not use this cash to pay down corporate debt. with the federal government, continuing with no con- Oh no. And they won't be hoarding any of the cash. They sultation, no debate, no transparency with the people of won't be using it to fatten up shareholder dividends or British Columbia. add to the bottom line. Oh no. Nor will they give big You know, even the pundits are saying this govern- bonuses to their executive pay raises or themselves. Oh ment "has already poured suffering taxpayers a poison no. And they will not be taking any of this money and cup of vile swill called the HST, and now comes the foul- investing it in the United States or other provinces or tasting chaser: a steaming tankard full of brutal fees and overseas. hikes" — everything from camping fees to ferry fares, No, these Liberals believe that the CEOs are going to hydro, Terasen Gas and transit. It's all going to cost tax- be sitting around the corporate board table almost right payers more, and yet this government's plan is to squeeze away making strategic plans on all the many wonderful taxpayers even more. It's a plan that's failing. It's not go- ways that they're going to help to trickle down all this ing to work, and it's hurting British Columbians. cash to the fine people of British Columbia. That is the fairy tale that they want us to believe in. J. McIntyre: I'm delighted to take my place and have Does this government honestly believe they can sim- the opportunity to address the House today on Bill 9, ply give away buckets of money and somehow it's all although I have to say that not being a former union going to work out best for the people of B.C.? Is this the organizer, I don't think I can do it at quite the same vol- best idea that they can come up with, acting in the pub- ume, but I'll try. Maybe I'll try. lic interest? It's shameful. It's absolutely awful. [1440] This government apparently chooses to ignore global I appreciate that debate today is on Bill 9, which evidence, particularly that corporate profits and invest- basically repeals an embedded provincial sales tax and ments are running off to nations with lower costs, lower provides for transition to a harmonized sales tax, but environmental standards, lower employment and safety having listened to members opposite for the last num- standards. Does this Liberal government really think ber of days in question period and even in estimates that they can win the race to the bottom? Is it their plan — where some of this subject doesn't even belong — and to lower provincial and community standards even debate for days now, I've decided that I can no longer sit further in some kind of rat race to the bottom? Is that still and just listen to this rhetoric without trying to put where we're headed? And what about the trade imbal- it into some kind of context. ance, hon. Speaker? I'd like to focus my remarks today on the role of the The problem we have here inB ritish Columbia, which NDP in this issue. I really believe it's important for points to this HST harmful tax, trickle-down theory viewers and the public to understand why the NDP is failing on many fronts…. Financial reports continue to so critical and so intent on dragging out debate on an show that investment is not connected in any straight issue that is absolutely fundamental to economic recov- line to government tax reductions. In fact, while this ery here in British Columbia. The NDP rhetoric and government and the federal government were reducing their actions all point to a single fact — that they're corporate taxes, investment was fleeing North America just merely exploiting this opportunity. So when we say and British Columbia for greener pastures. "white," they just automatically say "black." We say yes; This bill is not connected to investment in any way, they automatically say no. shape or form. It's just a pure and simple gift to their They never give credit where credit is due. I sat here corporate pals. That's what this is, and this harmful tax for five years. They can never give credit to any kind has created winners and losers amongst the B.C. busi- of good idea. Also, I sit here and have often wondered ness community. when sometimes one by one, every member of the op- With this harmful legislation and this bill, this govern- position stands up and speaks against a bill, and then ment has not properly accounted for all the jobs that will they turn around at the vote and all stand up and vote be lost in restaurants, tourism, real estate, the new home for it. As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty weird in what construction and other HST-impacted businesses that our Minister of Health likes to call the NDP world. will lose jobs as a result of these harmful tax increases. I have to make an important point here. TheL eader of These businesses feel absolutely betrayed and misled by the Opposition, after the last election about a year ago, this government. ThisL iberal bunch during the election admitted publicly…. I saw it on television. She admitted told them that the HST was not on their radar; it was not that they had made a terrible error in spending the last 4116 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

term only criticizing, just being negative and criticizing like NDP math — is absolutely ridiculous because they'd everything the government brought forward. I saw her need to be spending about $30,000 of their income sim- promise to work on behalf of British Columbians and ply on goods that were PST-exempt before. formulate a vision. Give us some alternatives. Give us [1445] positive alternatives. Let us see what the other side of the Well, that's a heck of a lot of movies and haircuts and House has as a vision for this. restaurants. No, it's ridiculous. I mean, the math doesn't As I say, it's been almost a year. What have we seen? even add up, and yet people are being taken advantage Absolutely nothing. Nothing. I am completely convinced of and being frightened. that NDP really stands for "no discernible policy." Let's look at the NDP track record in other areas. Let's What does the NDP plan for economic recovery? take the environment. I've debated about this on a num- We're in the worst recession since the Great Depression ber of occasions. They were anti–carbon tax, as I said. in the late '20s. Dead silence. What is the NDP plan for Actually a tax that was revenue-neutral, a tax that was the forest industry? It's been on its knees. Dead silence. offset by tax cuts to individuals, to small businesses and No, wait a minute. I think the best they came up with to corporations. No, they were all against it. was ripping up the softwood accord. Can't believe it. Then, lo and behold, it came back and bit them in the What's the NDP plan for mining? Oh yes, of course, election, when all of a sudden people who had previously they sent mining out of this province in the '90s — right? supported them admitted out loud that they were being We had to work very, very hard to get investment back in political opportunists and were exploiting carbon tax, this province after the NDP chased mining. when in fact it was a good thing for British Columbia. The HST is fundamental. It's a fundamental build- So there. They got caught on that. ing block in helping us kick-start economic recovery. Then cap-and-trade. They sat up in the House and It's especially to our resource industries — right? This voted against cap-and-trade. What happened? Then tax will remove about $140 million in costs for the for- we're flip-flopping. In the election, now the NDP is say- estry sector. It will remove about $80 million in costs for ing — I think their leader was saying: "Oh no, well, some the mining and oil and gas sector, about $880 million cap-and-trade is okay," or whatever. They have no -co removed from the construction sector and about $210 herent policy on any of this. million estimated to be removed from the transporta- Green energy. I've debated their Energy critic for tion sector. years now in the House on that. Again, fearmongering These are forestry jobs, mining jobs, jobs that are in and destroying jobs in the rural, resource-based com- rural areas of this province. Resource-based commun- munities and places where First Nations have an interest ities depend on them. These are the very people that the in economic development. No, they're opposed to that. NDP purport to represent. What are they doing? They're They're opposed to anything. They're opposed to all re- actually standing up here and blocking economic recov- newables. They're opposed to nuclear. Oh, and Site C. ery. They are actually working against jobs in the very No, none of that. They don't want anything. The only communities where we need them so badly. thing they've settled for is importing dirty power. That's As far as I'm concerned, the NDP absolutely lack cred- where they're at on that, so no credibility on that. ibility. They are standing here and opposing the HST What about health? The critic has been saying, "Oh, just like…. This is like déjà vu, just like that movie ofB ill just throw billions of dollars at health" — right? — with- Murray's, Groundhog Day. out any plan. I sat here in this House, and here's a great Now they're opposing the HST because they think example of political opportunism. I felt my heart went that on the surface, the public of course will just react. out to a number of seniors that were invited to the gal- They won't want any more additional taxes. It doesn't lery. They were from a long-term institution in Surrey. matter the merit of the tax; it doesn't matter the neces- I think it was the Zion centre. They were here begging sity. It doesn't matter how important it is or how many and trying to embarrass the government. of the sectors or resource communities it will help. They They said that this institution needed $80 million for a revert to their same old patterns and just oppose. revamp, a modernization of one of their wings and that In fact, what's even more shameful is that they go these poor people were going to be thrown out on the further than just opposing. They engage in some of the streets — scaring seniors. So what happens is the then fearmongering tactics. We've heard some of them. They're Minister of Health stands up and has to explain and em- scaring people. They're scaring seniors. They're scaring barrass the opposition. It was actually a private operator people on fixed incomes, and that is unconscionable. and had nothing to do with the Fraser Health or any- I'll give you an example. There's an e-mail going thing to do with government. They don't even do the around, sort of a viral e-mail that I'm sure most people facts right. They were talking about throwing $80 mil- in this House and many others have seen. It says that a lion without any plan. senior couple on a $40,000 income will be spending an How about advanced education? Let's look at the extra $2,100 as a result of HST. The mathematics — just record on that. Oh great. That was when they froze tu- Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4117

ition fees. Not only did it harm students; there were no Briefly, HST, harmonized sales tax, tax policies — al- investments in classes, no new instructors and no infra- ways technical. It's not easy to explain in some 30-second structure for new classrooms. Then, people are taking six or 60-second sound bite. Yes, some consumers will pay years to get a degree from UVic instead of four because more for a hodgepodge of goods that were previously they can't get any of the courses they need to graduate. PST-exempt. And yes, some industry sectors are being So that's a good idea. disproportionately affected, like some of the new home- How about transportation? Their record on that is builders of luxury homes. good: fast ferries. I don't even have to go into that one. We're not trying to pretend that there aren't some That was how good they were. They had a labour agenda negative implications to some in society, but we've been that produced ferries that didn't even properly work. straight-up about it. We've made adjustments where it They didn't invest in any infrastructure — no highways, was important, where we were able to adjust for home bridges or roads. The Leader of the Opposition flip- heating fuels and we exempted gasoline tax, things like flopped on the Port Mann bridge. She's going, "Wrong that. bridge, wrong time," and then — oopsies — some of We've been very, as I say, straightforward about some her members are from that region and — oh — maybe of these adjustments and implications, in fact, where some people in Surrey and the Fraser Valley would like it's been negative to our treasury. We've tried to sort of a bridge. soften some of the transition time as we move to a dif- How about finance? They raised taxes. Apparently, ferent taxation system. they are the party that raises taxes, and I just learned to- The NDP has been just basically trying to take advan- day that they actually were the party that raised the PST tage of this situation, and they've been misrepresenting from six to seven points. They loved it so much, they and exaggerating the impacts. It's really easy to simply thought: "Let's have more of it." say no — right? — to have no alternative but just to say no. I think they've been trying to whip up a frenzy and Interjections. whip up the public and, as I say, sort of use scare tactics. Now what we have is what I'll call an unholy alliance J. McIntyre: Yeah, the capital tax — right? They never of Bill Vander Zalm and the Leader of the Opposition. met a financial target in eight or nine years. They didn't Well, there we've got an ex-Premier, who was already have any reliance on outside economists to guide them discredited for financial dealings, and the Leader of the in their budget planning. No, they tinkered and inter- Opposition, who has had no credible plan in almost a fered internally, and you know what we got with that. decade of opposition. Now she's jumping into bed with That was the old famous fudge-it budget. a disgraced Premier. All I can wonder is what the pillow They have been opposed, as we were discussing this talk is like. That's all I can say. morning, to removing provincial barriers to trade across It's basically embarrassing that the NDP won't even the country. They've been protectionists forever and ever. say publicly whether or not they would repeal this tax — They have no credible track record on taxation policy. right? They've been all over the map.I 'd like to read into Then, the best thing is they position themselves as the record here some of what the NDP has been saying caring for the vulnerable and the poor — right? That's out there. I'll start with their Finance critic from Surrey- where the home is. Then what do they do? In the '90s Whalley. He says, meaning the HST implementation: they put a casino in at Main and Hastings. That was a "It's a bit like having your appendix out. Once it's done, good idea too. it's done. It's very hard to go back." That was on CKNW They got rid of volunteers. They got rid of all the vol- on August 4 last summer when it was introduced. unteers who were helping with Meals on Wheels. They Then the next thing is the leader is not saying that kicked parents out of schools. They said: "Oh no, parents they would keep it. She's now saying that they would can't be volunteering in schools. No, that's exploiting. serve notice to the federal government. She says: That's exploiting labour, so let's get rid of all the vol- "We're locked in for five years on this agreement if it passes. At unteerism in British Columbia." That was also another the end of five years you have an opportunity to serve notice, and fabulous NDP policy. As I say, no credibility and no dis- I've said that's what we'd do if we were elected. We'll serve notice on the federal government, and then you have an opportunity to cernible policy. I have to wonder why any member of get rid of it, to renegotiate it, to lower the tax, to look at what the public would put their faith and their trust in NDP works for British Columbia. That's our commitment, to serve that facts and also in NDP math. notice." [1450] Well, that's one heck of a commitment. That was on They have an extensive track record of not -under CKNW on March 30 of this year, just recently. standing economic matters or, maybe worse, ignoring Then we have another member, the member for Juan the realities and then exploiting public concerns and en- de Fuca, on CFAX on February 10. Now he's saying that gaging in fearmongering tactics. That's no record I'd be they would get rid of it. "That means that the next gov- proud of. ernment elected in 2013 will have a four-year mandate, 4118 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

and over the course of those four years, the HST will be "In what is arguably the most important provincial tax reform eliminated in British Columbia. That's what we've said." measure in a generation, the B.C. government has announced that it will harmonize the provincial sales tax with the federal How is the public supposed to know? Here we've got goods and service tax, effective July 1, 2010. For anyone keen to three prominent members of a party that are all saying see a more productive and globally competitive B.C. economy, something different. this is welcome news." On a positive note, I'd like to put into the record what He goes on to say: others, certainly more credible than the NDP, have to "Replacing the PST with a value-added sales tax tied to the fed- eral GST is the single best thing the province can do to promote say about the HST. This is not the government speaking. investment, exports and productivity; encourage the growth of These are third parties who have expertise and experi- higher paying jobs; and reduce the administrative and compli- ence and who have a global perspective, not just the ance costs for business. The HST system should position British narrow focus of the opposition. Columbia for a more robust and sustained economic recovery once the current downturn is behind us." Let me start with yet another quote from John Winter, Exactly what we need. who is the president and CEO of the B.C. Chamber of Even Les Leyne in the Victoria Times Colonist at the Commerce. This was in response to the recently released end of March this year, March 31, says: Mintz report, which was very favourable about what the "The HST will be simpler to administer. More than 300 prov- harmonized sales tax will do to the British Columbia incial Finance Ministry staff will switch to becoming federal economy. Mr. Winter says: employees. "This report is further evidence that the HST is essential for "It will cut business costs and may well spur growth. It will result creating jobs and attracting new investment in British Colum- in a $250 million cash transfer from Ottawa to B.C. by the end of bia. TheH ST will further contribute to B.C. being one of the best the week, with $769 million more to come July 2 and $580 mil- investment climates in the world and make our businesses more lion a year later. It's in line with economic thinking around the competitive." world." He goes on to say: Then finally, the last quoteI would just like to read into "There's been much discussion about the increased prices the record here is Richard Rees, whom I had the pleas- facing consumers with the implementation of HST. Making busi- ure of working with when we were looking to hire the nesses more competitive and eliminating the layers of imbedded new Auditor General. He's the CEO of the Institute of PST on consumer products will mean lower prices on a wide range of goods. We saw this when the Atlantic provinces adopted Chartered Accountants of B.C. He says: "We have been HST. Savings passed on to consumers means that household calling for harmonization for several years. Given the incomes will have increased purchasing power, and that, too, will current economic climate, and Ontario's recent move to strengthen the B.C. economy." harmonization, there is no better time than now to take Let me also quote a great article in the Tyee last sum- this important step." mer, 24th of August, by Calyn Shaw. It was actually quite There we have a number and a variety of different amusing, and I think some of us had to even chuckle experts who bring experience and expert views to this that an article like this could be in the Tyee, which is very important move that we're making. This is not just sometimes not so friendly. They're talking about com- the government trying to say what we think about it. I ing to realize that the HST was the right thing to do. He think it's very important. We've been trying to do a lot of says: reading and understand and have economists and have [1455] expertise and experience guide us in trying to make "It's hard not to think so, if you take the time to speak with tax policy experts, look at the results of HST in other jurisdictions, these decisions as legislators. It's very reassuring to have most notably Atlantic Canada, and consider that most other experts be so unanimous, I think, in their support for provinces are following Ontario's example by moving to HST. this move. "The opposition can muddy the waters, and consumers can There's also a number of business associations that complain that they are getting the short end of the stick, but the represent small and mid-size and even some large busi- truth of the matter is very simple. HST was a good policy move by the B.C. government. nesses that have been lining up since we introduced this "Is it perfect? Of course not. No government policy decision last summer. Again, some of them have jobs and support ever is. Are there going to be losers, especially in the short term? businesses that are in rural areas of the province, things Of course there are; there always are. Is this a policy that makes so like the B.C. Agriculture Council, the Lumber Trade much sense for the government that it belongs in the no-brainer Council, the Forest Products Association. We also have category? Absolutely. "And it isn't just the government that believes so. Professor Conference Board of Canada, Canadian Manufacturers Kevin Milligan from the department of economics at UBC is and Exporters, Mining Association of B.C., Retail an enthusiastic supporter of the new tax policy and gave it high Council of Canada. It just goes on and on. I won't read praise when I spoke with him last week. 'HST isn't a left-right them all into the record. issue, and it isn't ideological as far as economists are concerned. It is just good policy,' said Milligan. He went on to point out that 'it I would like to give a quote. This is a gentleman who isn't pro-business and anti-consumer. It's the necessary modern- is not in a major industry association but someone that ization of tax policy.'" I actually had the pleasure of meeting socially over the Jock Finlayson, who is the executive VP of policy at holidays. We got into a conversation. Quite naturally, the B.C. Business Council, last July said: when he found out I was an MLA, he sort of slipped into Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4119

a conversation about HST. He was so excited. He couldn't it will be doing for the British Columbia economy. wait to tell me how he has a business in the Fraser Valley Take the time to understand the importance to British and also in Ontario, and in both jurisdictions, starting Columbia's competitiveness. July 1, his business is going to have the ability to take ad- When we have a positive, growing economy, as we just vantage of the flow-through taxes and all those things experienced for most of this decade under this govern- that will accrue to small to medium-size business. ment's leadership, we have more money for the social I asked him. I phoned him not long ago and asked if programs that we need and an ability to help the most he would mind stepping up publicly, helping me in my vulnerable in their time of need. We need to restore a dealings and the people I talk with. He agreed. Well, he strong economy. We need to restore funds in the prov- provided me with this, actually, and agreed that I could incial coffers. We cannot afford to be left behind. We use it publicly. He said: cannot afford to let the NDP's political opportunism [1500] prey on public concern and even their fears. We need "As a small to mid-sized business owner and farmer, I believe facts. We need expert opinion to help guide us. the move to an HST makes good economic sense and will be good I think that after the uproar when HST was first an- for British Columbians. No one likes taxes, but the HST makes a lot more sense than the PST it replaces. As a business owner with nounced last summer, once it was time to study the operations in both B.C. and Ontario, I support the HST as being situation and look at the pros and cons, you see that the long-term positive for our company and our employees." experts and businesses from all around the province That's John Schroeder, who's the president of Valleybrook have come to the conclusion that this is a favourable tax International Ventures. policy. I think we even got some favourable editorials in There's so much ammunition, and there are so many both the Globe and Mail and the Sun last summer after people who are supporting this. I just think that it's very all of this. important to get this on the record and for the public I just thought, as I close here, that I'd like to read what and those at home to understand that this is a very im- Gerry Martin said in the Vancouver Sun last August 13, portant economic step for British Columbia. 2009, under the heading "TheH ST Will Provide Benefits By opposing this Bill 9, the NDP want to maintain to B.C. for Years to Come." He comments that their re- an antiquated, cascading and penalizing tax regime cent report, Investment in British Columbia: Current that will make job creation that much more difficult. It Realities and The Way Forward, describes: makes B.C. industries less competitive nationally and "B.C.'s below-average productivity performance as well as internationally and, further, will make B.C. a less at- underlying causes and possible solutions. The most important tractive target for investment, exactly at the time when recommendation is to replace the provincial sales tax with a value-added tax, preferably harmonized with the federal goods we are trying to recover from recession and when we're and services tax. trying to create jobs. "Services and some goods will be subject to more tax, and rela- The quick timing on this move, which admittedly tive consumer prices will change, although they may not increase caught many off guard, is precisely because we want to significantly on the whole. There are several tools available to offset the impact on consumers. All of those identified by the launch simultaneously with Ontario so we don't lag be- B.C. Progress Board are incorporated in the proposed HST: less hind and lose share, and this is basically a pre-emptive than full input tax credits; special treatment for new housing; move. some items excluded from the provincial portion of the tax; and It's an important aspect — that alone — to catch enhanced tax credit; and federal transition funding. Ontario this July 1, because look even at what's happen- "Although the HST has critics, no one is claiming that harmon- ization is bad for the province as a whole. The diffuse benefits ing in our own film and new media industries, where from increased investment, productivity and increased living Quebec, Ontario and Saskatchewan are actively try- standards will benefit us all, even those who preferred the PST." ing to recruit and lure businesses away from British So I believe we have little choice in a global economy Columbia. So we need to be very attractive, not only to but to modernize and keep pace. A value-added tax get new business but also to keep the businesses that are like the HST does just that. For these reasons, Bill 9 has burgeoning and flourishing here in the province, and merit, and I think that in time HST will prove to be a HST helps that. major boon to B.C.'s economy. If only the NDP could As I said earlier, HST is a complex topic, and there's stop the gamesmanship, the fearmongering and the plenty of information during this debate and on the foot-dragging simply to score political points. It's a real Ministry of Finance website and other materials for shame sometimes when crass politics gets in the way of those who would like to dig deeper and learn more good economics and clouds the facts for the people we about it. It's wrong for government to just be patroniz- are so privileged to serve. ing and say, "You know, this is complicated," pat people [1505] on the head and say: "Trust us." That's ridiculous and sort of political suicide. D. Routley: Thanks to my colleagues on this side So I'm encouraging the public and viewers to learn of the House and the, I believe, somewhere around 88 not just how it might affect them personally but what percent of British Columbians who are opposed to the 4120 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

HST for listening in on this debate on Bill 9, intituled Real wages in B.C. over the past decade have declined Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act. 3.8 percent, while in neighbouring Alberta they have in- The previous speaker essentially said, "Ontario made creased by 6.8 percent. Growth in the 1990s was higher us do it," yet our Finance Minister claims not to have than in this Liberal decade of deceit. In fact, what we have been aware of the fact that Ontario had harmonized its seen is the decimation of the fundamentals of the B.C. sales tax. They were caught off guard. Well, that either economy. While housing prices provided, for a time, the displays an absolute incompetence or a lack of integrity. impression of increased wealth through increased debt, Pick your poison, Madam Speaker. people now see how the B.C. Liberal mismanagement Either way, British Columbians have come to hold of the economy has left us individually and collectively this government in such disregard that they feel sorry without the means to recover. for our democracy in British Columbia for having to ex- [1510] perience such a betrayal. Their principles, the principles The fundamental industries of this province are deci- of British Columbians, have been affronted by the be- mated — forestry, fisheries, agriculture. They have haviour of this government. doubled the provincial debt — that without even con- Over the past ten years this Premier has campaigned sidering the off–balance sheet debt of their privatization against harmonizing the provincial sales tax with the schemes. They have destroyed the forest industry, fish- GST. I would wager, in this age of expanded gambling ing and agriculture. Now their only answer, their only in British Columbia, that in fact not a single member on vision, is a $1.9 billion transfer of tax from corporations the other side of the House said nary a word about the to small businesses and consumers so that they can take HST on the doorsteps during their campaigns. a $1.6 billion payoff to do what they promised not to do If they were so proud and if they were so convinced of in the first place — $1.6 billion to cover up at least a frac- its merit, why weren't they prepared to share it with the tion of their mismanagement. people? That is what people have really reacted to. They Real people have been struggling under failed B.C. have responded to this continuing deceit — a govern- Liberal economic policies. We have seen this decimation ment that would mislead them, a government that has of the forest industry, a dismantling that led to the loss misled the province of British Columbia. of over 50 sawmills and over 20,000 jobs before there It is a double-cross. It continues a solid pattern of B.C. was any downturn. Those jobs were lost at the height Liberal deceit. Why should British Columbians believe of a North American building boom, and your govern- their government? Why should British Columbians? I ment, members on the other side…. believe that British Columbians want to believe in gov- Those members of the government deregulated reck- ernment and in democracy, but their cynicism grows lessly a forest industry and decimated the foundation with every passing day of this continued Liberal deceit. of the B.C. economy at a time when there was the lar- Why would we believe them when they promised not gest rate of growth in housing in the United States. A to sell B.C. Rail? The Premier promised the province that province dependent on an industry that supplies that he wouldn't sell B.C. Rail, and yet they sold B.C. Rail. marketplace died. Those jobs won't be coming back. It Why would the people of British Columbia trust a was a disaster. It was a double-cross of this province. government that promised not to tear up the contracts They sold out the province and gave away…. of the Hospital Employees Union workers and then The Auditor General has referred to the giveaway of did it? Condemned internationally, condemned in the the forest lands on Vancouver Island as a failure to pro- Supreme Court of Canada, it's not believable. This gov- tect the public interest — and now the ultimate symbol ernment is not believable, has lost all of its credibility. of that deceit: the HST. They stood in this House and campaigned through- There is not a single member on the other side who out B.C. before the election, promising the people of B.C. had the courage or the knowledge, perhaps…. Perhaps a deficit not exceeding $495 million and delivered five their Premier, perhaps their cabinet didn't share it with times that. It's clear to every British Columbia that they them, but not one of them went to the doorstep and told knew better, that they knew revenues to government the voters that what they planned to do, the best thing were sliding in such a way that that was an unachievable for the economy, was to harmonize the provincial sales target. But did they share that at the doorstep with the tax with the GST and transfer $1.9 billion of tax obli- voters of British Columbia? No. They misled the voters gation from the biggest corporations in this province of British Columbia. Finally, what has come to be the down to consumers and small businesses. crystallized symbol of this deceit? The HST. We are now to trust their judgment in bringing in this This province has experienced a very difficult decade. hated sales tax? We are now to trust those who betrayed We've seen the decimation of our forest industry. We saw the voters of B.C. on B.C. Rail, the HEU contracts, the the loss of over 50 sawmills and over 20,000 forestry jobs true size of the deficit and the real cost of theO lympics? during a housing boom in the United States. This is a mis- Two million British Columbians will be paying more. management of the fundamentals of the B.C. economy. This is a massive double-cross. Just as the province strug- Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4121

gles to emerge from a recession, the B.C. Liberals decide that it represents. All through its history, right from B.C. to burden that recovery with the HST. Rail, through the HEU contracts, all the way to the HST What wizards these B.C. Liberals — wizards who — a continued track record of betrayal. continue a bad spell, a spell that has seen this prov- If a person were to succumb to this depressing scen- ince maintain the tragic notoriety of having the highest ario, then certainly the most booming commodity in child poverty rates in the country, a spell that has seen B.C. would be cynicism. But I'm proud and I'm happy to B.C. sink to the lowest minimum wage in the country, say that I see British Columbians reacting with outright without even considering the $6-an-hour training wage. anger at this, and that reassures me that people still do That spell has seen our largest factor of growth become care about their democracy. People do still expect that growth in homelessness. these members, these B.C. Liberal members who were What a disaster. And now this, the HST, the ultimate elected on a promise not to harmonize the provincial hidden tax, hidden from the public during the election, sales tax with the GST, shouldn't do that — shouldn't hidden from the builders of B.C., who were double- do what they promised not to do during the election crossed in writing when the B.C. Liberals told them that campaign. the HST was not on their radar — that in writing to the Yet what did they do? A flip-flop, a gymnastic miracle. B.C. builders. They have decided that they can do whatever they please. Another double-cross. The B.C. restaurant and food It doesn't matter what they've promised the people of association sent out a questionnaire to all parties before B.C. — again. So when we speak to young people who the May election. One question was whether they would are rather dismayed and cynical about politics, we have implement the HST. The NDP replied that they would to defend our system against this kind of an abuse. not. The B.C. Liberals responded with detailed reason- ing on why they would not harmonize the HST with the Hon. B. Bennett: Is that like a fudge-it budget? GST. Let's take a look at what was said to these restaurant D. Routley: Then the members talk about a fudge- owners and their association. During the election they it budget. I think they're referring to the fact that their were told that the HST would extend the PST tax base Finance Minister promised the province that the deficit to a broader range of goods and services that are pres- would not be greater than $495 million. I think that's ently exempt from provincial sales tax. This is major what they're referring to. concern. Well, I guess not a big enough concern to hold What they're saying and confirming again is that the them back from implementing it the day after the elec- people of B.C. were misled, that just as the member says, tion, practically. they were manipulated and misled. They were misled [1515] by our Finance Minister, who told this province that The B.C. Liberals are also mindful that a harmonized the deficit would not be more than $495 million, even GST would reduce the provincial government's ability during the election campaign. But now we find out that to unilaterally adjust sales tax rates. Apparently, before the election they saw that it was beneficial that the prov- the minister and the Premier knew that revenues were ince have the autonomy to reward behaviours that it plummeting to such an extent that that was an impos- considered to be good for the economy and the environ- sible target. ment, such as buying bicycles, buying energy-efficient Did they share that with the voters? The member appliances, but all that is out the window now. who's talking on the other side — did he share it on So if this member on the other side had such cour- the doorstep with the voters in his constituency? "Well, age, why during the election didn't he knock on doors I know the Finance Minister said it's going to be $495 and tell the voters of B.C. that that was what he was go- million, but it's actually going to be about five times ing to do? Didn't the members on the other side have that." Did he share that? No. Just like he didn't share the the courage of their conviction, or were they aware that news about the HEU contracts, B.C. Rail or this har- had they shared that news, those 88 percent of British monized sales tax. Columbians who were opposed to this tax would have This is pathetic. This is very sad. This is very sad for turfed them from government? our democracy and our province that a government elected in British Columbia — such a beautiful province; N. Letnick: Because they're being misled. such a strong, wealthy, healthy province — can entertain such deceit. That is unfortunate. D. Routley: Yes, the member confirms it was because Now, on top of those disastrous facts, British they were being misled. Absolutely. That is why the vot- Columbians will see this $1.9 billion transferred from ers of B.C. are reacting with such anger. the biggest corporations in our province — particularly It is certainly dismaying to see a government behave those who are exporting our resources in raw form, like in this way, to see a government betray the population raw logs — onto the backs of small business. 4122 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

Interjection. HST hit list. Don't fret, Members. I've found it. Don't fret. You'll need to know, as you plan your monthly D. Routley: You're right — onto the backs of farmers budget, just like every other British Columbian needs to and small business people and consumers. This comes know what's going to cost them more. on the heels of massive MSP premium increases, soar- Restaurant meals, cable TV, new homes, non- ing ferry fares and huge increases in other fees, such as prescription medication, telephone services, Internet camping fees and health services. services, propane and natural gas, hockey tickets. Oh, [1520] hockey tickets, Members. How could you do it? Some TheT D Bank estimated that 21.4 percent of the goods groceries, prepared foods, haircuts, admission fees, British Columbians buy will be newly subject to the HST membership fees, movies, theatre, bus fares, magazines and that, on average, consumer prices will rise by 1.5 and newspapers, rent and strata fees, taxi fares. percent, even if businesses reduce their prices. B.C.'s Airline tickets — that'll affect the members opposite. PST applies to a narrower range of goods and services Golf fees — that will certainly affect a lot of the members than the sales taxes of other provinces, so the effect will on the other side. Music lessons — not so sure. Skiing, be even larger here. spa services, massage therapy, resort packages, park- Only 11 percent of British Columbians…. ing, coffee shops, fast food, beverages, dry cleaning, car maintenance and repair, vitamins, dietary supplements. Interjections. I'm halfway through the list, Madam Speaker. I can't read it all, because I want to finish my speech. Deputy Speaker: Member, forgive the interruption. It's amazing that we're going to take $1.9 billion from The other members will come to order. the biggest corporations and shift it onto the everyday Please proceed. lives of ordinary British Columbians — the very people that this government purports to represent, the very D. Routley: Only 11 percent of British Columbians people who were misled when they were told that the support this tax. More than 80 percent are opposed to it, government wouldn't do this. They were promised. and yet here it comes. It doesn't have to be this way. Well, you know what? One might arrive at the con- Only seven of those members…. If they could develop clusion that the B.C. Liberals have forgotten for whom the courage, if they could connect with the expectations of they work. That would be assuming that they ever really those they purport to represent…. The HST could be de- worked for the people in the public interest of British feated if only seven of them voted against it. I'm sure that Columbia. It is clear, though, through their many as- with the narrow margins that many of these members were saults on the common wealth of this province, that the elected by, they must be considering the dubious future they B.C. Liberals have never really truly worked for the face as politicians if they support this HST, which they cam- benefit of this province and its people but rather have paigned against implementing. This is not acceptable. always danced to the tune of their corporate masters — British Columbians are reacting across the political in fact, that narrow band of corporate interests that have spectrum with anger and outrage, and I'm glad they are. donated and supported the Premier and his party. If they weren't, it would mean that our democracy truly [1525] is in peril, because people would have resigned them- If your values and your beliefs tell you that it's okay to selves to the fact that being misled during an election funnel the wealth of a society up to the already power- campaign is acceptable. And it is not. Thank goodness it ful and secure, then fine. Fine. Put that in front of the is not, in British Columbia. people. Tell the people of the province what you are go- What is the raw cost of all this? Well, to use the gov- ing to do, and then do it. Don't mislead them by telling ernment's own claims, a $1.9 billion transfer, based on them you will not impose the HST and then do that very a population of 4.4 million people, results in $432 extra thing. If you have the courage of your conviction, if you for every man, woman and child. How on earth are we believe that this was the right thing to do, you should to pay? have put it in front of…. We will pay when we pay for…. Well, let's take a look at the list of what we're going to pay for. It's long, so I Deputy Speaker: Member, through the Chair, please. have to ask the member's and the Speaker's forgiveness for going through such a long list. It includes real estate D. Routley: Let the voters choose the real agenda. fees. It includes…. Don't hide your agenda and veil your plans. Don't cam- paign against the HST and then turn around and impose Interjections. it only after you're elected. If your values and beliefs are that this great province should work for every one of D. Routley: Yeah, okay. Well, they'll be glad that I its citizens, that every one of those people deserves an can't actually find the list right now. Here we are — the equal chance, an equal opportunity, then don't imple- Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4123

ment the HST. Don't impose crippling fee increases on That really summarizes the feeling of every British British Columbians. Don't mislead British Columbians Columbian — that we have been brushed off, that the about B.C. Rail, about HEU contracts, about the true commitment a government makes to its people in order state of the province's finances. to represent democratically has been brushed aside by Don't cut from services that support British the HST, by the promises made by this government and Columbians, like education and health care, and then then broken. pretend that you haven't done so. Don't give away the [1530] wealth of this province through transfers to corporations It's a long track record of betrayal — B.C. Rail, HEU and onto British Columbians, like the HST, like the for- contracts, education funding, and on and on. They est land giveaways. Don't mislead British Columbians. promised to protect education funding and health care The basic role of government is to protect the people funding before the election, and look what we see — and the province. The B.C. Liberal government has dis- school boards in crisis again. played its weakness again. It fails to protect the people Year after year this government plunges our public from want and harm as it transfers the HST to the services into crisis, and the HST will do nothing to re- shoulders of people. It failed to protect the people from pair that damage. The HST they've advertised as being want and harm as it decimated our forest industry and revenue-neutral will, in fact, cost this province money stripped supports from children and families, only to to implement. Revenue to government will, in fact, de- see child poverty and homelessness grow. crease, but the burden to ordinary taxpayers and small businesses will increase dramatically. [C. Trevena in the chair.] Why would this government choose to do this? Why would they choose to do it? If they had the courage of The people are ready and always have been ready to do conviction, why weren't they prepared to knock on the their part for their province. They stand ready in good voters' doors and tell them their plans? That's the least faith to invest the effort and sacrifice it takes to build a bet- British Columbians should expect. ter B.C. for them and their children. What they need is If it is not a question of integrity, if those members leadership that lives up to the commitment they make to on the other side honestly didn't know, then it's a ques- their province. This side of theH ouse stands ready to join tion of incompetence, because the Finance Minister has the people of B.C. in building a province that reflects their told this province that he wasn't aware that Ontario was vision of fairness, empathy, independence and security. considering the HST. The Finance Minister of British We are all proud of our province. We all know it is es- Columbia wasn't aware that for months and months sential that we as a people, as embodied in this House, Ontario had been saying that they were planning to im- never dishonour the legacy we have inherited by los- pose the HST. ing sight of our duty to put this province first. The B.C. In fact, the Ontario government had the decency Liberals, in so many ways, have forgotten this. Perhaps and integrity to consult with the people affected. The the clearest example of this failure is the HST. Ontario government went around the province and dis- The HST is representative, symbolic, a crystallization cussed the impacts, and how to mitigate them, on those of what it means to mislead the voters. It is the symbol affected. Still, there's a majority of Ontarians who op- of betrayal — the betrayal of B.C. by every B.C. Liberal pose it, but at least they didn't have to face this betrayal candidate who knocked on doors and campaigned for that British Columbians have had to face. election hiding the HST from voters, hiding cuts to edu- Let's look at the realtors. We're going to see an addi- cation, hiding the true size of the deficit. tional 2 percent tax on new homes up to $525,000, after Democracy depends on integrity. When we are failed the rebate, and then an additional 7 percent tax on the by such a betrayal, democracy has its remedy. value of a new home above $525,000. The HST will also I'd like to take a look now at the other groups who be charged on the real estate agent's commissions, as have come out with statements of disbelief over the HST, well as on services like appraisals and maintenance. anger over the HST and the feeling that they have been TheB .C. Real Estate Association has an anti-HST cam- absolutely betrayed by the people who represent them paign. My partner is about to write her realtor's exam. on that side of the House. Her brother is a realtor. Her father is a very well-known The First Nations. The Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs realtor. They were shocked. They came to me and asked opposes the unilateral implementation of the HST. Both me for information about how they could respond to the federal and provincial governments failed to consult this betrayal. Those are people who were formerly B.C. with First Nations and have refused to meet with the Liberal supporters and feel absolutely betrayed. Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs to discuss the impacts of When we look at tourism, the HST will increase the this tax. Chief Keith Matthew, Simpcw First Nation and average price of tourism-related products and services by member of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs HST com- almost 5 percent. It will lower tourism industry revenue mittee, stated: "They are brushing us off." by $363 million to $545 million per year. The tourism 4124 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

associations of B.C. say that it will cause jobs to be lost about $50,000. Right now that pickup truck has $3,500 — 3,400 to 5,000 direct jobs or 7,000 to 10,000 direct worth of PST embedded in the cost. That $3,500 has to and indirect jobs. Does this not matter to the members be recouped, and that $3,500…. I can tell you. opposite? What will it take to penetrate that thick skin You know, the members opposite go on about big that appears to have been developed over a sensitivity to business. They go on about the fact that this is a tax shift what happens to the people they represent? from business to consumers, but I hate to tell them that Democracy is offended by such a betrayal, and demo- businesses that don't recoup their costs are called one cracy has remedies. How many B.C. Liberal members thing, and that is bankrupt. So consumers are currently were elected by slim margins? I wonder how many sit- paying that $3,500 charged for that pickup truck in PST. ting in the House right now were elected by the slimmest Not only are they paying it, but when that company cal- of margins. If the B.C. Liberals had been truthful with culates its cost of goods sold, it takes into account that the voters, what would have been the result? PST, and then — I know the members opposite will be Here's a warning to the B.C. Liberal members. Here's a even more shocked by this — not only do they charge warning to those who were narrowly elected: democracy that $3,500 back to consumers, but they charge profit on has a remedy for such betrayal. The federalC onservative that $3,500 as well. Party, after implementing the GST against the wishes of They actually attach margin to that $3,500, and they Canadians, was banished to the hinterlands of politics say, "Okay, my goods cost X number of dollars, and that for 20 years. That would be a prediction from this side includes the PST I'm paying," and they charge profit on of the House for that side of the House. it. I know the members opposite would just be abso- [1535] lutely and utterly horrified by such a possibility, but the fact of the matter is that under the HST they will get this D. Horne: It's with great pleasure that I stand today in tax back. Surprisingly enough, they will no longer have debate and speak in favour of Bill 9, the Consumption it as a cost of goods sold, and they won't be charging Tax Rebate and Transition Act. I'd like to start by step- profit on it. ping back for a moment and examining the facts and The interesting thing…. The funny part is that some of how those members opposite and myself have reached the members opposite now are basically saying: "What? the positions that we now find ourselves in. What's he talking about?" Well, it just shows how they One of the things — with all of the drama, all of the know absolutely, utterly nothing about business. Put it political theatre, all of the comments from those oppos- this way. When you decide how you're going to make ite — that seems to be forgotten is that the reason why money as a corporation, you have to take into account this bill is structured the way that it is, is that it repeals your input costs. You have to take into account how the PST. We have a great deal of theatre happening on much it costs you to do business. Right now it costs a the other side and a great deal of, you know, "This is business the PST as well. After the HST is implemented, what should have happened," and all of that. But the fact it will not. of the matter is that I first heard about theH ST the same [1540] way they did. [Laughter.] I think it's funny because the NDP and their strange They can laugh all they want, but that's the truth. They bedfellow Mr. Vander Zalm…. I was trying to figure it can basically create all the theatre they want and all the out, and it's just actually come to me now. I've tried to drama. They can basically go on and on and try to cre- figure out what the connection is and how Bill Vander ate all this thing, but that is the truth. I personally heard Zalm and those opposite have come together. It's be- about the implementation of the HST the exact same cause they both live in a fantasy world. Coming from week that they did. that fantasy world, they go on, and they don't under- Since then, we've both had equal and ample oppor- stand the basic economics of input costs and the fact tunity to examine it. The one thing you won't find is any that companies charge margin on it. But they go on, of the members opposite standing and saying: "The rea- and this baseless fearmongering just continues and con- son why I don't support the HST is because the PST is tinues, and it's shameful. It's downright shameful. so much better than the HST will be." None of them, not You know, I had a call to my office recently.O ne of the a single member opposite, will stand in their place and members opposite recently read through a list of those say that the PST is a good tax. That's because it's not, and things that would be taxed. I had an older gentleman, that's because it creates level upon level upon level of and he called me. He's retired, and he's got a fixed in- taxation on the sales of many goods and services. come. He doesn't have a lot of money. He basically said There are many, many ways of looking at it, but one to me: "I can't believe that you're doing this and that you of them is to take a look at a piece of lumber. People are, basically, putting forward the HST." look at the single pickup truck. A logging company, a I said: "Well, let's go into the details. What have you forestry company, someone involved in the agricultural heard?" He says: "Oh, I have this e-mail, and it shows me sector, buys a pickup truck. The average pickup costs how I'm going to spend $2,100 more a year." He says: Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4125

"Well, there are some items on it. So I won't be quite at ried about that boogeyman," and your big brother keeps $2,100 on it, because there are some things…. I don't saying: "That boogeyman is coming. He's coming. He's golf, for example, so I won't be paying the membership going to come and get you. You better hide from the fees." boogeyman." There are a lot of people who are on a fixed income at [1545] $40,000 who pay almost 50 or 30 percent of that, accord- Well, we all know when the lights go on and you open ing to that calculation, in golf fees, but we won't get into the closet door, there's no boogeyman there. I want to the mathematics of that. know what happens on July 1 when British Columbians Basically, you go through item after item after item. turn on the light and open the closet door and realize The first item on the list is groceries, which is just fun- that the boogeyman that this opposition and Bill Vander damentally wrong. It's just deceitful and wrong. It's Zalm told them was there isn't there. sad that the members opposite and Mr. Vander Zalm What are they going to say then? What are they going have to deceive people in order to get their point across. to say to the members opposite? What are they going Actually, Mr. Vander Zalm mentioned that the other day, to say to Bill Vander Zalm, who…? You must question about this deceit, and that this was the only way it was what his motives are, because he's a bright guy, and I going to work or something. I wasn't quite certain what know for a fact that he knows there's no boogeyman in he was exactly meaning, but the fact of the matter is that the closet. you go through that list…. You know, the difficulty is that when it comes to tell- The member read the list. He says telephone and ing people the way it is, when it comes to economic Internet and cablevision. I hate to tell you this, but tele- policy, when it comes to how you deal with these issues phone right now, all but the basic line charge, is already and how you can convey them, it's the same thing as subject to the PST. Everything but the basic line charge the carbon tax. This opposition was so opposed to the will be no increased cost. Oh, I know you wouldn't want carbon tax. They stood up. They jumped up and down. to tell people that. They said this was the worst thing that could happen The second thing — cablevision, for example. They to British Columbia, and then when reality set in, they use a number. To create this $2,100, they say cablevision. realized that their own supporters actually supported Well, my cablevision costs $80. I hate to tell you this; the carbon tax as well. It was like: "Oh, we better not say you're already paying PST on the majority of that $80 anything about that any more." and the same as the phone cost as well. You're already The difficulty is that you can have all the theatre you paying PST on a majority of that phone cost. want. You can go on and on and on about how it was put If you take the personal tax measures and other meas- forward, but the fact of the matter is that it all comes ures that this government has put into place and you down to one simple question. Is this the right thing for take those into account with the HST, for a family earn- British Columbia? Is this the right thing for our econ- ing $30,000, what will that mean for them with the HST? omy, and will this make British Columbia stronger in That's this family earning $30,000. the future? Resoundingly, the answer to that question Let me emphasize this for a second. With the har- is yes. monized tax credit that they will receive, they will save The idea of the harmonized sales tax has actually $552 a year. Then you go and you take a look at a family been around for years. One of the members opposite earning about $60,000. What will this HST cost them? said earlier: "Did we have a study on this? Why would According to Statistics Canada, on average consump- we do this without any studies?" Well, we have a study. tion, it's going to cost that family making $60,000 a year It's called 130 countries around the world. It's called 29 about $134 or about $10 a month. Well, that's a long way of 30 OECD countries in the world who have moved from the thousands of dollars that Bill Vander Zalm and to this form of taxation. And why do they continue to the members opposite are scaring people and scaring transition? Why do they move to these types of taxation? British Columbians into believing that it's going to be. Because it's the right thing to do. It allows for competi- The biggest difficulty, one of the things thatI find most tiveness within businesses. amusing about this whole conversation, is that it's very There have been comments even this morning about easy to scare people when they don't know, when they competitiveness with Alberta. Alberta doesn't have a can't go to the store and see, when they can't see what sales tax. Well, I hate to tell you. If you're a business in the truth is, when they're sitting in the dark, and they're British Columbia and you're competing against a busi- not exactly certain what will happen in the future, what ness in Alberta and you're paying the sales tax, and is really happening around you. they're not, surprisingly enough — and I know the NDP It's like your big brother who comes in and says has trouble with math, and they live in this fantasyland there's a boogeyman in the closet, and you sit there and — you're at a competitive disadvantage. you hide. You hide under your covers, and you say, "Oh Surprisingly, when you institute an HST so that those my gosh. I'm frightened of that boogeyman. I'm wor- input tax credits come back to them, the shocking thing 4126 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

that happens is that the playing field becomes level very, very successful, and they're great guys. You know, because now both the company in Alberta and the com- they do very, very well in the restaurant business. pany in British Columbia no longer have to worry about Through the conversation I said: "Well, how much the tax. GST did you get back when you built out your restau- You know, when I ran my company, I can tell you that rant?" He said: "It was over $50,000." I said: "Well, how we bid on projects in Alberta. One of the other things much of the PST did you get back? How much of the that was complex with that is that we had to register PST that you spent on your counters, your flooring, your in Alberta. We had to register with their equivalent of stoves, your fridges, everything else that went into that WorkSafe in Alberta, and we had many, many hoops to restaurant, how much of that did you get back? How jump through. Not only did we have to jump through much of that came back so that you could basically have all of these hoops in order to compete for business it in your business to run your business, to make sure in Alberta, but in the design business which I was in, that your business was properly capitalized?" on each one of our computers we had approximately He looked at me, and he said: "Well, of course I got $10,000 worth of software. none of it back." Surprisingly enough, the PST that I had paid as a "None," I said. "Well, the restaurant business has been businessman on that $10,000 worth of software on every very, very critical of the HST. You know how much of single one of my computers…. For those that don't do that you would have got back with the HST if you had the math well, that's $70 per computer. The difficulty is an HST and we were in an HST world?" that I didn't get that back. So that was a cost of my do- When you build a restaurant starting in July, how ing business. That was a cost that me, as a company, that much of that are you going to get back? Well, the answer my partners, that we simply had to include in our cost of is: all of it. They're going to get all of it back. I know, for doing business, and it had to be included and recouped. the members opposite, that would be horrible — to have Obviously, in doing business and in being successful, we tens of thousands of dollars in their pockets so that they made sure that that was the case. can build the restaurant, build more restaurants, build [1550] jobs. I know that's difficult, because when you have ex- We can debate this for long, long periods. The other tra money and you're in the restaurant business and you comment that was made this morning was the Tim have the ability to build another restaurant, surprisingly Hortons doughnut theory. One of the members oppos- enough that creates jobs. ite said that the Tim Hortons on this side of the British They would convince you. They would spend con- Columbia border was going to be in big trouble com- siderable time telling you about all the jobs that'll be lost pared to the one on the other side of the border in in the restaurant sector. It's funny, I think, that when Alberta because, of course, that 14 cents was going to time proves eternal, these restaurants will be far further compel all of those people to spend $20 on gas to drive ahead than they've ever been now. and get a doughnut. It's not just the restaurant sector. You know, take a look It just shows you how utterly silly from an economic at the employers in British Columbia, the major em- standpoint some of these arguments are. Quite frankly, ployers — people like the B.C. Agriculture Council, the someone who is going to spend $20 to save 14 cents B.C. Business Council, the B.C. Chamber of Commerce, needs an examination of the way they think financially the B.C. Lumber Trade Council, the Canada West because, obviously, they're doing something completely Foundation, the Motion Picture Industry Association of wrong. B.C. You take a look, association after association, repre- You know, the restaurant sector has spoken a lot about senting many, many workers here in British Columbia, the HST. They've created some signs, and they've- cre and they're all in favour of the HST. Why is that? ated some things. I find it interesting, having been a Why is it — if you actually look back and you lis- businessman, because I think that to spend significant ten to the Finance Committee and you listen to what's amounts of money convincing people that your pro- happened over many years — that people would come duct is going to be outside of their purchasing power on before the Finance Committee every year and say: a certain date because of a certain policy isn't terribly "You have to harmonize this tax. You have to make it good business and might be, to a certain extent, a self- easier"? fulfilling prophecy. [1555] I don't believe for a moment, for most of them, that this I can tell you, as a businessperson for many, many will have a significant impact.I n fact, I actually spoke to years, that filling out many, many forms that govern- a local restaurant owner in my riding the other day. He's ment requires in order to do business — filling out your just built a new restaurant, and he spent over a million tax forms, filling out your WorkSafe forms, filling out all dollars on leasehold improvements to build out his new of the forms that are required by government in order to restaurant. He's actually in the process, he and his part- comply with their rules and regulations — is a huge task ners, of building several more restaurants. They've been in itself. How much does a company actually get back Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4127

for filling in all of these forms? The answer is: nothing. I've pointed out in this House twice now the fact that They're a cost of doing business. the Leader of the Opposition talks about it costing a So when the opportunity comes to streamline things, thousand dollars for the average family. For it to cost a when the opportunity comes to not duplicate the col- thousand dollars would mean that they'd have to spend lection of taxes, when the opportunity comes to make it over $14,000 on goods and services not currently cov- much, much simpler and have a system that people al- ered by the PST and that, basically, in order for them to ready understand and is in place and move to it, would do that, they'd have to have a huge, huge disposable in- we say no? Would we say: "No, that makes no sense. We'd come that average British Columbians just don't have. prefer to spend $30 million a year in British Columbia [1600] continuing to collect the PST"? As they continue to be frightened, as British I go back to my original comment, and that is: I chal- Columbians continue to fear the unknown, the boogey- lenge the members opposite to actually stand up and talk man in the closet, I ask a very, very simple question. This about the benefits of the PST, talk about how great the government was elected on a simple question, and that PST is, talk about how it's such a better tax, how the PST was: who do you believe is best to manage our economy that we currently have is so much better for business, is in these difficult times? I think that if you asked that so much better for the economy, is so much better for same question now, with the comments that we hear British Columbia in the long run than the HST. I can often from those opposite, the answer is very simple, tell you right now that there won't be a single member and it hasn't changed at all. Our government is the best opposite that will stand up and make that speech, will to manage our economy. stand up and make that argument, because the argu- Our government has a proven track record of man- ment's not there to make. aging this economy. We have the proven track record And that's why their members, when asked…. You of making certain that the tax burden that we place on know, when my colleague on the Public Accounts British Columbians has the least impact possible. I'd like Committee, the critic for Finance, says that it's like an to talk about that tax burden for a little bit. I mentioned appendix — once it's done, it's done — and the Leader of earlier in my speech the fact that the family that was the Opposition says, "We'd serve notice," but it doesn't…. making $60,000 a year was going to have to pay, accord- You know, what that actually means is another question. ing to consumption statistics, about $132 more, so I'm The reason why they're as vague as they are is because going to just read through some numbers for a second. they know that once it's there, it's there. They also know As I get to that, I just want you to remember that it's go- — which is the sad reality of the situation, which is why ing to cost that family $132 more. they won't say anything — that the HST is actually better Basically, if you had an income in 2001 of $10,000, than the PST. They know that. That's why whenever they you paid $168 in income taxes. If you made ten grand, all stand up, they always go on about who knew what you paid $168 in taxes. Today that person pays noth- when, about all of these other theatrics, about basically ing. That person pays no taxes in British Columbia. To all and everything about everything. say that this government cares about big corporations, They will speak to everything but the case in point that this government cares nothing about those that are — that is, the principle of this bill, the principle of elim- the hard-working people is just absolutely and utterly inating the PST, a tax that is detrimental to business, wrong. This government has eliminated taxes to more a tax that costs businesses significant amounts each British Columbians in the last while than any period in month and year to manage, a tax that costs businesses our recent past. considerable amounts to make sure that they're in com- You take a look. Someone that was earning $20,000 pliance with, a tax that is quite complex as to how it's was paying $1,008 in taxes. In 2010 they'll pay $91. dealt with and what it's charged on and how you deal That's a savings of $917. A family or an individual earn- with things. ing $40,000 was paying $3,041 in 2001. That person now One of the things that I find funny as well…. I had pays $1,450, or a savings of $1,591. a meeting. One of the members spoke earlier, and they Let me get to that family who is making $60,000. This said: "Have you gone and talked to people about the is also assuming that that family making $60,000 has a HST? Have you spoken to them? Have you had a chance single income, because this is not based upon two indi- to actually go out into your community and talk about viduals making $30,000 each. This is based upon a family the HST?" And I think he was a bit surprised because my making $60,000 with one income earner. That family, as answer was: "Yes, of course I have." Yes, because basic- I said, under the HST will pay about $132 more. That ally what people have been hearing and what people family paid income taxes in 2001 of $5,401. In 2010 that continue to hear from the opposition and from Mr. family will pay income taxes of $2,969, or as I say, that Vander Zalm and from the media who are propagating family will save $2,432 in income taxes. Mr. Vander Zalm's and the opposition's story, is simply When we talk about the tax burden, about how we not true. You know, it's simply not true. collect the taxes from those citizens of British Columbia, 4128 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

I think that by burdening them with an additional $132 My constituents understand breaking a promise. They and by saving them $2,432, we've done a very decent job don't need pontificating politicians and fancy press releases. of making sure that their overall burden has gone down They just want the truth, and the truth is that this govern- substantially. ment made a written commitment during the election not That's what this government will continue to do be- to go forward with the HST, and yet here we are today. cause we know that by making sure that the way we My Coquitlam-Maillardville constituency office has collect taxes is the least cumbersome on the economy, received literally dozens of letters on the proposed im- the least cumbersome on British Columbians, we will plementation of the HST. Many of these letters begin build a strong province, one where future generations with the words: "I've never written to a politician before, can enjoy the same benefits, the same wealth and the but…." Then they go on to outline very real concerns same opportunities that we have all enjoyed here. about what this tax will mean in their own lives. [1605] Today I want to share some of the comments that I person- ally have received in my office. Let's start with the response D. Thorne: Before I begin my notes, I would like to from the business community. This is from Sandra. assure the last speaker, the member across the way, that "At a time when taxes should be cut to spur economic growth, I it isn't just the people across the way — in other words, simply cannot believe that this is even being considered. This will the official opposition — that are espousing opinions to have a direct impact on just about everyone's wallet and will also have an effect on the tourism, restaurant and housing industries, which he was referring in his speech. It's people right to name just a few. across the province of British Columbia. In fact, I may "This tax will hurt all B.C. residents, but most especially single be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure it's the big majority of parents, the working poor and those who are trying to start over people across the province of British Columbia. by starting their own small businesses due to a job loss. I fall into this latter category, and a tax grab is not the way to fund the Brit- One of the lessons that I learned very quickly as a pol- ish Columbia government." itician is to listen to the people that elected me. They This letter is from Mark. know what matters in their own lives, and they know "I have been very happy with the actions that the federal gov- when enough is enough. I believe, as they do, that we've ernment has taken to alleviate the impact of the recession, such reached the tipping point with this harmonized sales as the renovation tax credit for homes. But now that we have tax, masquerading in this House as the Consumption emerged from the recession, the provincial government is taking action that will hurt businesses like mine. Tax Rebate and Transition Act. [1610] The people in this province are not stupid. They know "We should be giving people incentives to spend money to help this is a tax grab. As the old saying goes, if it looks like a the economy start running smoothly again, but instead we are duck and quacks like a duck, don't step in what the duck giving them reasons not to spend money. I get the idea that the leaves behind. B.C. Liberals think that this is probably their last term." I'm proud that my constituents and those from other I'd just like to add that these aren't my words. This is areas of the province, many writing in a second language, from Mark, one of my constituents. trust the system and write to express their unhappiness "So they don't care how they look in bringing in the with this disgusting tax grab. I hope they stay politically HST, but they shouldn't bring us down with them." This active and continue to fight. Together seniors, students, is from Ken. "If the HST is to make B.C. companies more young families, small business owners, comfortably off competitive against more than 130 countries, why don't or struggling, can make this government wake up and the Liberals harmonize the tax at, say, 9 percent? Then pay attention. B.C. companies would be worldbeaters." Perhaps I should rephrase that. We may not be able to From another Ken: "It's not fair to use a new sales tax make this government realize the error of its ways, but I to pay for tax cuts for selected industries and businesses. have to believe that individual MLAs on the other side The HST will shift hundreds of millions of dollars of of the House are finding it very hard to justify the HST costs to restaurant customers, putting the jobs of people in their own individual ridings. The figure I keep hear- in one of B.C.'s largest industries in jeopardy." ing is that this HST has a resounding 2 percent to, at the This letter is from Ed: "Tourists won't come here any- very most, approximately 10 percent support across the more, and so many small businesses will fail." province of British Columbia. From Carolyn: "Premier Gordon Campbell said about So these individual MLAs in the government, who the HST that this is the single.…" campaigned along with their party less than a year ago on a platform that promised not to implement the HST, Deputy Speaker: Member. Remember, please — no must be doing some pretty fancy footwork as they con- names. tinue to switch gears in their ridings. How exactly do you support a bill that is the opposite of what you promised D. Thorne: I'm sorry, Madam Speaker. I withdraw. I in an election campaign? I don't know, but I'm certainly was just reading the letter. I'm sorry. I didn't realize it interested in finding out how they're doing that. said that. Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4129

"The Premier said about the HST that this is the single biggest "My wife and I are semi-retired, living in Coquitlam. With the thing we can do to improve B.C.'s economy. I believe this is com- recent downturn in the economy, we're finding it more difficult pletely false, because B.C. has been one of Canada's best survivors to make ends meet. Like so many others, we have cut back on our of the recession, and Canada has been one of the world's best sur- spending and our charitable donations because we have to. We vivors. So overall, B.C. is doing pretty good in comparison. lead a simple life. That is what our financial situation allows. "Also the Bank of Canada announced that the recession in our "At a time when consumer spending is needed to bring the country is essentially over, so there is no need for the HST to 'help' economy out of a recession, a new tax is the last thing we need. improve the economy. It is doing fine on its own.I t has recovered I would think a tax reduction would be more appropriate right from far worse than this without introducing ridiculous taxes that now. See U.S. President Barack Obama for a leadership example. hurt everyone. I have voted Liberal in the past, but if they proceed with this idea, "Finally, could you please explain to me how charging everyone they will not receive another vote from me." more for everything is going to help anyone? I'm an intelligent From Winnifred: person with a business degree, but I can't see how reducing pur- "Seniors living in retirement enjoy a lifestyle different from the chasing power will do anything but harm the economy and make one they lived while at work. In retirement, to be active often a lot of people very upset." means paying a fee, a membership, an admission, a subscrip- The next letter is from David. David says: "This will harm tion or for costs of travel, etc. We have calculated that the impact the restaurant, home renovation and real estate sector." of this will be more costly for seniors than anyone has reported. From Georgina: Consider a retired couple receiving a total retirement income of $41,400 after taxes each year, healthy enough to enjoy some com- "A lot of people in businesses are suffering right now, and I fort in retirement. don't see much of an improvement in the next while. I'm sure "Look at just a few of the items that will cost more without get- they are not able to handle more tax. In this time of recession, ting more: cable TV; golf fees; gym memberships; hydro; hair- when all forms of government have their hands out for more cuts; heating fuel; Internet; income tax preparation" — I repeat, money, what are we supposed to do to find more money? Our Madam Speaker, that these are not my words; this is from Win- wages certainly aren't increasing. We are making less and having nifred — "heating fuel; legal fees; hockey, football and baseball to pay out more. game tickets; magazine subscriptions; movie tickets; newspaper "They are trying to make us believe that the tax is a godsend that subscriptions; curling fees; telephone; live theatre tickets; vaca- will improve the economy, create jobs, improve productivity and tion travel; vitamins; the veterinarian; ferry fees; chiropractic and boost new business investment. Yeah, right. Who is going to want massage therapists; and a Tim Hortons coffee." to come here when we slap a 12 percent tax on everything? It is ludicrous, and it is embarrassing." From Dave: Now, let's hear from some of our students and young "My wife and I are retired. The pensions we have allow us to just survive, and that is the situation we live with and accept, as this people. From Jenna: is our lot in life. I wish our pensions would go up as much as, if "I'm an arts student attending Emily Carr University of Art and not more than, the HST. I am still angry that the Premier, since Design, and I rely on the British Columbia student loan program. his first election to be Premier, has raised his salary by at least 53 Now, there have been cutbacks on the current program, and even percent, and the rest of the politicians got a 30 percent increase. with a part-time job I'm only just barely about to cover the short- The 40 years that we worked we never once got a double-digit pay fall. Now I'm told that the cost of supplies will increase by 7 per- raise. I truly care very much about how all British Columbians cent. That's a very significant figure. live and survive, though not at someone else's expense." "Many people believe that we, the younger generation, do not From Carol: "Think about the single mothers and the contribute to society or the political system, but that is because of our mistrust in the political system, a system that doesn't work for seniors of this province. It just cost me $30 in parking us. Things like the HST not only hurt us financially, but it hurts to take my 88-year-old mother to emergency. For some our whole trust in the political system." seniors, this could mean the difference between food or From Marie: "TheH ST will cause a lot of hardship for medication. You need a reality check on the average in- everyone except big corporations. For example, univer- come of the people of British Columbia." sity students who pay hundreds of dollars each semester In a letter to the Minister of Finance last July the B.C. for textbooks will have to pay 12 percent HST instead of Care Providers Association raised concerns about the 5 percent GST." negative financial impact the HST may have on many Here is one parent's perspective. From Laurie: seniors care providers in B.C. The letter continues: "I am in a position where I can afford theH ST, but my children "We are concerned that the HST will exacerbate existing inequi- in their 20s cannot. They are beginning their independent lives ties in the seniors care system because of the differing rebates that and looking at paying off student loans and attempting to buy a various providers receive. Health authorities will receive an 83 condo, never mind a house, at this stage. They're paying off car percent rebate; non-profit providers, a 50 percent rebate; and pri- loans, etc. Young people these days seem to be shouldering more vate providers are not eligible for any rebates. debt than their parents ever had to. Adding on HST makes a big "The impact of the HST will be especially critical for those pro- impact on their lives. viders that contract out services, such as housekeeping, laundry, [1615] maintenance and care staff. Rather than a GST tax of 5 percent, "For example, just take a look at the impact of the HST on the the provision of these staffing services will now be subject to 12 cost of a wedding. This is something that a lot of baby boomer percent HST. Contracting out of services was one of the major families are planning. Every aspect of a wedding will be affected vehicles for providers to reduce costs and manage within funding by the HST because services are involved. This will probably add levels. The net impact on these providers will be wage and bene- another thousand dollars to the cost of an average wedding — fits costs that will increase by 7 percent." banquet and beverages, hall, photographer, bride's dress." [1620] This tax grab will be particularly hard on our seniors. Again and again, my constituents and other British Let's hear from some of them. From Dave: Columbians write about their fears for the future. From 4130 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

Carolyn: "The worst part is that it will be applied to food, she exhibits too much independence. Now the very lit- and I do not believe that people should be taxed more tle money she does have will be further taxed when she for the necessities of life. My grocery bill is already huge buys the things she needs." because I have so many allergies that I have to eat spe- Here are some additional comments from ordinary cialty foods, which are more expensive. This will make British Columbians. From David: "Please fight hard."H e my grocery bill climb." sent this to me. "Please fight hard against the HST. This From Carol: "These are tough times for many people, tax is unfair to the people of B.C." and this will make it more difficult." From Barb: "This is another ripoff by a government I'm reading all of these letters — in case people on the that's done nothing but take and take, not to mention other side are getting bored with it — because I believe lying to the people of this province. Putting money in it's better for me to speak the words of my constituents our pockets is something this government just doesn't rather than how I feel about it. I think the people in the do." opposition…. Sorry — just projecting ahead, Madam From Don: Speaker. I think the people on the government side "The government must be told in no uncertain terms that they know how I and the opposition feel about the HST. But do not have a mandate to harmonize the GST and the PST in this province, and should they continue on this course of action, these are the words of my constituents. they will be reduced to insignificant numbers come the next elec- I'm pretty sure that they're getting the same kinds of let- tion. Many of us are still angry over the carbon tax, which again is ters. If they're not…. It's unimaginable to me that they're nothing more than smoke and mirrors. The Premier can no more not getting them, that if we talked to the people running have an effect on global warming than he could empty Lafarge their offices, the people running their offices would say: Lake" — which is a little lake in my riding — "with a teaspoon." "No, no, we're not getting letters opposed to the HST." Actually, it's not in my riding. Oh, this letter might be I've heard members of the government read petitions from the member opposite's riding, in Coquitlam– they've had about the HST from their ridings, so I'm Burke Mountain. That's where Lafarge Lake is. pretty sure they're getting these same letters. They may Bob says: "One word — no." That's whatB ob says. not have read them. [1625] They have to listen to me today, so that's whyI 'm read- Finally, from Jenna again: "Industries, the planet, stu- ing these letters, because these are the people of British dents, and people of all sizes and shapes will be hurt by Columbia. This is how they feel. This isn't how I feel. this tax. Please do your part to make B.C. HST-free." I Well, it may well be how I feel. That's not important, couldn't agree more with that. Madam Speaker. What's important is that these are the Ordinary Canadian consumers and many businesses people that vote. These are the people that pay the taxes, have been expressing their opposition to this tax since it and what they think counts. was first announced. The bottom line for individuals and This is from Carol. Carol says: families is that they will pay more. Costs will go up, but "To implement this tax is a disaster for the working-class people wages will remain the same. It transfers approximately of British Columbia. It is already bad enough that the world has $1.9 billion in taxes paid by big business onto the backs messed up so many of our small investments. Now you are imple- of consumers. B.C. already has the highest child poverty menting a tax that is going to impact our family budgets even rate in Canada, as one of my letters just said. I suggest more. Parents of children are going to be hit very hard. You want our youth to stay off the streets? This is definitely not going to we try moving in the opposite direction. help. If you really want to educate young people, then let's put a Why don't we look at some of the groups that are op- tax on books — really." posed to the HST? The Restaurant and Foodservices From Ellen: "We have the highest rate of child poverty Association of B.C and Canada calls this "a 7 percent in Canada. That is something to be proud of. Let's now meal tax." They say that it will cost the industry $750 make it even worse." million each year in lost sales, or nearly $50,000 per res- More on the subject of poverty from Brian: taurant in British Columbia. Wow. This translates into "I am already sliding down and feeling like the middle class is jobs as about 7 percent of B.C.'s workforce is in the food vanishing. All the taxes taken from us seem to have been chan- nelled into the poor to make everyone a bit poorer, creating a service industry. When restaurant meals become more rich and a poor class. This tax grab will further my slide down to expensive, we'll all be looking for layoffs. become one of the truly poor in the province, and I really don't TheC ouncil of Tourism Associations of B.C. says: "The want to become dependent on the government or, even worse, HST will cost up to 10,000 tourism-related jobs. It seems become a homeless panhandler, something that 20 years ago wasn't even in my wildest dreams and now looks like an ever- like a counterproductive act to invite the world to see increasing possibility in my life." our magnificent province during the winter Olympics, Words to be remembered. This is just an ordinary guy, then force cuts in tourism jobs. It will also lower tourism Brian, looking at a picture of the future that he never, industry revenue by up to $545 million per year." ever thought he'd have to look at. I'll remind Madam Speaker that these are not my From Jenna: "This tax hurts many people, like my dis- words. Those are the words of the Council of Tourism abled mother who cannot qualify for disability because Associations of B.C., whom I would think would be one Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4131

of the stakeholders friendly with the government, so ample, estimates that it will increase the city budget by surely they know that this is what they're saying — that up to a million dollars a year. As a former city councillor, it will "lower tourism industry revenue by up to $545 I know how hard municipalities work to keep the budget million per year and reduce government tax revenues in control and avoid unnecessary tax hikes. for all three levels of government by up to $157 million." According to budget documents, harmonizing the Pretty catastrophic, I would say. PST and the GST will mean that B.C. consumers will be Now we have the B.C. Association of School Business taxed per year — I'm going to read some of the increases Officials, who initially said: "The HST will cost B.C. now — at least $55 million more for school supplies, $82 schools approximately $40 million per year. That's $24 million more for basic telephone and cable service, some million in increased operating costs and $14.7 million portion of $63 million more for magazines and news- for capital facility costs." papers, at least $8 million more for bicycles, $5 million While I am pleased that schools will now receive more for hybrid electric passenger vehicles, $23 million a rebate of 87 percent of the provincial portion of the more for energy-efficient appliances and building- ma HST, they will still be paying much more at a time when terials, and at least $11 million more for conventional school boards are already struggling with higher MSP fuel-efficient vehicles. Some portion of…. premiums and cuts to facility grants, parent advisory Excuse me. I'm getting carried away, Madam Speaker. councils and school sports. These figures are so big. I'm not used to such large TheB .C. Care Providers Association, who I referred to amounts of money escaping from the pockets of con- earlier in my notes, says: "TheH ST will transfer millions sumers, so I get a little carried away. from seniors care back to the Ministry of Finance. An They will be paying some portion of $991 million average 100-bed facility would see its costs increase by for food because while basic groceries will still be ex- over $60,000, especially for vital services like employee empt, restaurant meals and prepared foods will not be development, housekeeping, laundry, resident outings, exempt. travel, building maintenance, contract services, voca- We should also consider what the HST will do to tional therapists, refuse removal, pest control, landscape children's sports. Sports associations will be paying an and snow removal." All very, very important things to additional 7 percent for field and facility rentals. That the B.C. Care Providers Association. cost will be passed on to children and their parents The Federation of Community Social Services of B.C. through higher fees. Families will be paying more for says that the HST will cost non-profit social service safety equipment like helmets. I can safely say that some agencies. They want the rebate level increased from 57 families with more than one child wanting to participate percent to at least 75 percent so that this tax will be fis- in a sport will find that the costs and higher fees make it cally neutral for them. impossible. Do we really want healthier children? It cer- The B.C. Real Estate Association says that it will in- tainly doesn't look that way. crease the cost of new homes and professional services I believe we've reached the tipping point on the HST such as appraisals, inspections and realtor commissions. where there is such vast opposition that this government Even with rebates, the HST will cost B.C. Housing and is going to have to look at a way of back-pedalling and the Provincial Rental Housing Corporation — even saving face. I for one and I'm sure all the members sit- with rebates — between $1.7 million and $6.6 million ting on this side and, of course, up to 90 percent of the per year. Even with rebates — that's important. Very im- residents of British Columbia…. None of us can wait portant words there. and see what this government comes up with. The Rental Owners and Managers Society of B.C. — many, many groups here with their comments, very Hon. R. Hawes: Before I start, just a question for the important groups; many, many people are members of member for Coquitlam-Maillardville. She served on a these groups — says that the HST will increase costs to municipal council. I wonder how many times, when tax operate rental buildings by up to 3 percent or $300 per increases went through, she listened when people said rental every single year. they didn't want a tax increase. I guarantee you that they [1630] did say that. I wonder how many times during an elec- Guess who's going to pay that ultimately — the tion campaign municipally she went out and said: "Gee, tenants, of course. We already suffer from a lack of af- we're going to raise your taxes." Never. So come on. Let's fordable rental housing and have thousands of families get down to real facts here. on the waiting lists for subsidized housing, which hardly I'm going to start by going back a little bit to 2001. In exists. 2001 when our government was elected, we inherited a Municipal governments are opposed, even though structural deficit of $4.7 billion. These members oppos- they have had a small rebate. But the HST will in- ite like to say they had a surplus. It was fiction, done crease costs for everything, from their perspective, from with the old accounting standards that really weren't recreation programs to cemeteries. Richmond, for ex- standards at all. We inherited that deficit, and we said in 4132 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

2001 — we passed legislation, in fact, balanced-budget Who else? Oh, the member for Skeena, who is repeat- legislation — that we would balance the budget in three edly in this House decrying the HST. The member for years. Malahat–Juan de Fuca, the critic for Energy, said: "Let's At that time the two members of the NDP that sat in look at the HST and see if it makes sense." And the this House…. Joy MacPhail and the member for — what member for Coquitlam-Maillardville, who just spoke. is it — Vancouver–Mount Pleasant sat here for the four Unbelievable. She said to the Finance Minister: "Take a years. For the entire time they said that it's not possible look at the HST and see if it makes sense." She didn't to balance the budget. Year after year they said that. say: "See if it makes sense, and if it does, don't do it." She In the first month that we took power in 2001, we said: "Take a look, and see if it makes sense." Clearly, that put through a 25 percent income tax cut. The NDP de- means if it makes sense, you would implement it. cried that along with their leader at that time and today's Now, what happened with that recommendation? Do leader, Jim Sinclair — decried that income tax cut say- you know what happened with it, Madam Speaker? It ing it was going to destroy the province financially. It came to the Legislature in February of 2009, and every was never going to be recovered. We were heading just single member on that side in the NDP — every NDP — into doom and gloom, and the sky was going to fall. This voted in favour of the Finance Minister taking a look at went on for some period of time. the HST. Every one of them did it. It was unanimously [1635] adopted by the Legislature. The media said it was not possible to balance the The members opposite don't like facts, but the truth budget. We did everything that we said we were going to is…. do. We balanced the budget. We put the province back into surplus, and we adopted GAAP — generally ac- Interjections. cepted accounting principles — so there could never be a fudge-it budget like we saw in 1996. Deputy Speaker: Order, Members. Order. Let the We did those things against all of the opposition, all minister speak. of the chattering "never, never, no, no, no" people on the other side. We put through legislation that actually Hon. R. Hawes: Check Hansard. It's on the record. helped rebuild an economy, but they voted against every The members opposite don't like to be on the record single tax cut. In fact, they have voted against every about anything. They don't like to take a stand on any- tax cut that we've put through over the past nine years. thing, but they did on this issue. They voted to have the There are over a hundred of them. Finance Minister conduct a cost-benefit analysis on the Now, let's move forward. I sat on the Finance HST. Committee for several years. The Finance Committee That's February. So now let's figure out: did it travels the province every year and listens to British happen? Columbians, gathers input on what a budget should look like, what should be in the budget. The Finance Interjections. Committee then makes recommendations based on what they heard around the province, first to the Legislature Deputy Speaker: Minister. Minister, one moment. but also to the Minister of Finance. Let me read one of the recommendations from 2008. Hon. R. Hawes: Well, if anyone thinks that the This was the committee that travelled, looking at the Finance Minister himself sits down and just does a cost- budget for 2009. One of the recommendations said: "The benefit analysis on something, you'd better bone up on Finance Committee recommends…the provincial govern- how government works. There is very, very dedicated ment consider…conducting a cost-benefit analysis on the and very good staff in the Ministry of Finance, and harmonization of the provincial sales tax and the federal things like a cost-benefit analysis on something like goods and services tax." Gee. So the Finance Committee this are conducted by staff. It's not done in a three-day was saying to the Finance Minister: "Take a good look, and period. see if there's a reason to go to a harmonized tax." So over a period of time, as has happened, by the Now, they weren't saying: "Take a good look, and way, in previous years…. In previous years the Finance don't do it at all." They were saying, "Take a good look, Committee made the same recommendation. The same and if it makes sense, then you should go to it" — ob- members voted for it, and year after year, the Finance viously, otherwise the recommendation wouldn't be Ministry has looked at the HST and has determined there. Who made that recommendation? Who signed in previous years that it didn't make sense. That look on to that recommendation? Gee, I see it was the mem- doesn't happen overnight. ber for Surrey-Whalley. The critic on the opposition for [1640] Finance was recommending to the Finance Minister Now, we go through an election, and the members that he look at the HST. opposite make a big deal about, you know, misleading Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4133

— all the stuff that they say.B ut let's go this way, Madam Now, I just want to quote John Maynard Keynes Speaker. What I want to say is this. I sat on Treasury — maybe the folks opposite have never heard of John Board before the election. This never came to Treasury Maynard Keynes — a pretty influential economist. In Board. I know it never went to cabinet. I know the addressing someone who asked him why he appeared to Finance Minister says that it wasn't considered before have changed his mind on an issue, he said: "Well, when the election. I happen to believe him. the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" Interjections. I would put that to them, to the members opposite. When facts change, they seem to be stuck in the same Deputy Speaker: Minister. Minister, just one mo- thing, and they're incapable of changing their mind. ment, please. They're incapable of looking at change. Unfortunately, Could the members please give the minister of state as the world is changing, the global world is changing, the opportunity to make his remarks. I know that every they're stuck in this "Let's build a moat around British member has the opportunity to talk on this debate, and Columbia," this defensive policy that nowhere should I would like the members to give him the courtesy to we recognize, first, world trade, second…. They always make his remarks so we can all hear them. use the word "multinational" like it's some terrible thing. It's all a red herring. Hon. R. Hawes: Madam Speaker, I don't mind if they The debate here needs to be about: is HST good heckle, because it means that (1) they're listening, and policy? That's the debate. Will it build a better British (2) the truth hurts them. They don't like the truth. They Columbia? never have liked the truth. You know, over and over the last speaker got up and The opposition likes to go out to the public and say that read a whole bunch of e-mails from her constituents, or there was misleading and all the things they say. There's who she claims to be her constituents. Many of those nothing we're going to do to change people's minds on are actually form letters that are going out, and I suspect that if that's the way they want to think. I know in my some of them authored by folks that represent the NDP. heart of hearts what happened. I know that we did not They go around as viral e-mails that spread, actually, a mislead the province of British Columbia. whole bunch of misleading and untrue information. But this is politics, and the members opposite are go- Today we've heard — and I assume we're going to hear ing to go out and they're going to mislead the public this all the time we go through this debate from mem- wherever they can to score their political points. That's bers opposite — $1.9 billion transferred from the biggest the way it works. I get that, but let's get over whether corporations. Well, in the 1990s at the start…. In 1991 somebody knew or when you knew. big corporations were actually big — by the definition That's not relevant. What's relevant here is: is theH ST of those folks. By the end of the 1990s, corporations had good policy? Why can't you talk about whether or not left and gone to Calgary, moved their head offices, and HST is good policy? I think that's what we should be the definition of who was a big company began to slide. talking about. [1645] I think also you should take some responsibility for Now, I don't know what they call a big corporation. having the HST put in place. You are the ones, along The biggest corporations are getting the benefit. I know with this side of the House, that recommended to the that the benefit is actually going to businesses.B ig, small Finance Minister that he look at the HST. Frankly, I want — all businesses — are going to get…. Any business for to congratulate you for being astute enough to make that whose product or service there will be HST is going to recommendation. It's great policy. get their PST back. That's a benefit to those businesses. Let's talk about whether it's a good tax. Over the past Those small businesses are getting a benefit. several years there have been some changes made by the The member opposite said that we should be listening federal government…. to the groups that she quoted. Well, I'm going to quote a few groups too. These are groups that represent small Deputy Speaker: Minister, if I might remind you. business, and they're saying: "We write paycheques for Through the Chair, please, Minister. Thank you. people. We provide jobs for people, and the HST helps Again, I'd like to remind members about the level of us stay in business." the heckling, and from their own seats, please. I just think it's a little much for that group over there to disregard the voices of those who write the paycheques Hon. R. Hawes: With regard to the HST and the look and provide the jobs. I know the folks over there would that the government's had over several years, there was prefer to see every single job in British Columbia pro- very little flexibility. There were a number of reasons vided by the government as a union-type job. But the why it wasn't acceptable in the past, but things have reality, folks, is that, actually, private enterprise is the changed. job engine for British Columbia, and the beneficiaries 4134 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

of the HST are the workers who work for those small Now, if you listen to some of the leading financial businesses. You can't argue against that. It's a fact, an prognosticators in British Columbia, they will say that economic fact. prices actually will come down, and I believe they will But yet you stand up, and you talk as though this is come down. The leading economists in the country said a benefit for big corporations. Which are they? What's they'll come down because, unlike what the NDP don't your definition of a big corporation? Mom and pop that seem to grasp, it's a competitive world. built their business up, and they've got 15 employees? [1650] Is that a big corporation? Are you talking about an oil When your competition lowers its price, you do one company? What are you talking about here? of two things. You lower your price, or you go out of Every job, whether it's from a huge company…. If business. So what will happen is that prices actually are it's from Imperial Oil, that job is valuable to the person going to come down. Costs are going to come down for who holds the job. If it's a job in Teck Cominco's mine, many businesses. The impact of the HST is not going to it's an important job to that family, and if it helps Teck be anywhere near as significant certainly as people that Cominco keep those people employed, it's an important are travelling around with the Vander Zalm–NDP side- move forward, and I think you shouldn't forget that. show…. The impacts will not be anything like what they are talking about. Deputy Speaker: Through the Chair, Minister. I want to look at mining. That's the portfolio that I now have some responsibility for. Unlike what the mem- Hon. R. Hawes: Madam Speaker, I want to just talk bers opposite like to say, when they say there were no about, first and foremost, the embedded nature of the metal mines opened for the last twelve years…. Actually, existing tax, and some of us on this side get it. We've that's not true. There is a metal mine that opened ac- tried to explain it. I know the previous speaker from our tually in the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke's side did speak about the embedded nature and how it riding. There was a metal mine opened there in 2003. compounds. PST compounds. He's perhaps not aware of it because the folks who run I don't know. If you take any kind of a good that you that mine perhaps don't speak to him. purchase that will attract HST — a chair — the manu- I know that the mining industry is not a supporter of facturer goes and buys the lumber for the chair, but the the NDP in any way, shape or form. In fact, they recoiled mill paid PST on its equipment. The mill paid PST on a in terror during the 1990s when the NDP were here, in whole bunch of the goods that they use. If they are go- power. They have a fear, a deep-seated terror, of a return ing to…. ever of the NDP. I can tell you that the financiers around the world who look at financing mining are also afraid N. Macdonald: You're the expert. Do they pay it on of the return of a socialist agenda like the NDP carried. their equipment? You can hear it every day here. We can hear it when you talk about big corporations as though they are dirt, Hon. R. Hawes: They pay PST on much of the equip- amoral and just bodies that should be abhorred by ment that they use. They also, for example, if they have everyone — big business, corporations. Listen to the trucks, pay PST on their trucks. As it moves forward members get up. They make snide comments about that. through the system, the goods that are used by that They get up one after the other, and they talk about big manufacturer can have PST embedded on every single business as though it's the enemy. Frankly, all business thing that touches that piece of wood that went into that is our friend in British Columbia if it employs British chair. Columbia people, and they do employ British Columbia When it ultimately hits the consumer who's going to people. pay the HST, it may have had PST on those components I wonder if these people, if the members opposite, compounded many, many times. But when it hits the would want to go to people that work for Imperial Oil floor in the retail store, you don't know that that PST is or any large corporation and tell them that the company embedded, because it's just part of the business cost that they work for is a big corporation and therefore should was passed on and passed on and not identified as tax. be taxed, basically, until their jobs are gone. I don't think It's just part of the cost. they would hear that from the employees. So they marked up their cost, and as our member I think they are very disrespectful of the free enter- pointed out, actually built profit on it too, so that by the prise businesses that run our province, especially — oh time that it hits the floor, the consumer's actually pay- god — if they're non-union. "Oh my god. We must stamp ing a whole bunch of PST that's embedded. So now with out those non-union profit-makers." It's just ghastly the the HST, on some of those goods, they would have con- comments that come from them. We need to build a tinued to pay, but the PST will be rebated. Every step stronger economy, and the HST does that. along the way, the PST is going to be claimed back. That I want to speak for a minute about the restaurant should allow costs to decrease. industry and tourism and housing. The member for Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4135

Coquitlam-Maillardville made a lot of comments about the doom and gloom from the housing industry — not the restaurant…. The restaurant industry is out there there. making all these comments. "Thousands of jobs, no- I will also say that, as a realtor, I frequently, as do all body will eat in the restaurants. Oh my god. Come July realtors…. When you look at the GST on the commis- 1, no one will even order a pizza. Nobody's going to go to sion, all realtors are flexible. Now, they don't want me McDonald's and have a $1.50 hamburger because it's go- to say that, but every realtor is flexible on commission. ing to cost them an extra dime." Let's get real, folks. That's what they do, and you cut deals all the time with The restaurant industry needs to understand that people. "Gee, you don't want to pay, you know, $15,000 if they're out there telling people that come July 1 no commission on that house? Fine. We'll make it $12,000. one will be able to afford to eat in their establishments, Whatever." Those kinds of deals are cut every single day. people might believe them. That's pretty scary. I can tell I can tell you, real estate is highly, highly competitive, you, if I was running a restaurant, I would be saying: and the HST is not going to have an impact on people "I provide value for the money. The tax — don't worry paying realtors. That's just not going to happen. about it. I still provide great value for my meals. Come So it's time to actually get down to the reality of this. on down." Forget talking about the timing: "Who said what; when But here's the big deal. The big deal is that with the did they say…?" Is this a good tax for British Columbia? HST, people are going to have jobs that are more secure, That's what this debate needs to be about. and there will be more jobs. People who actually work I happen to think that on the other side, the NDP are are the ones who go to restaurants. It just follows, does not capable of engaging in an intelligent debate about the it not? I think it does. merits of the HST. They can read e-mails from people. Tourism. "My god, it's going to dry up. We're go- But I can tell you, and I started off by saying — speak- ing to see no tourists coming here. They're all going to ing about when that member opposite, the member for Europe." Oh gosh, though, in Europe I think that their Coquitlam-Maillardville, was on a city council — that I VAT, value-added tax, which is equivalent to ours, is 20 also spent three terms as a mayor. percent in most places in Europe. Golly, they won't go There were lots of times that we put through tax in- there. I wonder where the tourists are going to go, then. creases. We didn't go out and actually consult and ask Let's get real here. The HST is not going to stop tour- people: "Do you want a tax increase?" I know what the ism at all. Maybe the increasing value of our dollar will answer would be. We did what we had to do because have an impact, but I can tell you that the HST will not it was the right thing for the municipality. We believed have the impacts that they're talking about. that. [1655] If there was heat that came from it, as a city council, They're sending a message out, andI don't understand why the tourism associations would want to send out a we had the courage, as did the member for Coquitlam- message to tourists that they're trying to attract, telling Maillardville when she put through a tax increase on them: "You can't afford to come here anymore."I t's a dis- councils that she sat on…. She had the courage to look service to everyone who is really engaged in the tourism people in the eye when they complained about tax in- industry. The people who represent them should under- creases, and I'm sure they did because they always do. stand that they should stop saying these things. It scares I'm sure she had the courage to look them in the eye and tourists. It is not something that's going to stop tourism. say: "I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's the right thing I was a realtor for some years. I built condos, and I did to do." development work. I know what happens in housing. I Sometimes doing the right thing takes some courage. have a pretty good idea of it. I spent a decade doing that. It takes no courage — in fact, the opposite; I would al- I know that even over the past, say, decade, look at what's most call it cowardice — to just say: "Let's see which way happened with house prices. There were months when a the wind blows. We'll jump on that train, because that's house in Vancouver would go up $20,000, $30,000, in its the way people are saying…. You know, we don't care if asking price, and people were paying it. it's right or wrong." Now look at what the HST could add on a higher- But you know what? That's what makes people cyn- value house. It's way less than the increases that you've ical. It's not…. What makes people cynical is when you seen over the past little while. They get absorbed very have politicians that would do anything to buy a vote, quickly. If there's an impact in the housing market, it's and that's what I see going on here on that side, Madam going to be short-term — very short-term. It will be ab- Speaker. They will say anything. They will do anything. sorbed, and people will just move on. There is no morality to it. They will do whatever is When I was a builder, I said to people: "I will absorb necessary. the GST." Because I just built it into my price and said: "Buy the house, and it's GST-free." I paid the GST. That Deputy Speaker: Minister, would you please be very sort of thing is going to happen and still happens. So careful about what you're saying. 4136 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

Hon. R. Hawes: I'm trying to be very careful, Madam and the members opposite, I'll just add that myself Speaker. — "is the right thing to do for British Columbia," says I have heard over and over the word "mislead" from Pierre Gratton, president and CEO of the B.C. Mining the other side, and I can tell you that we did not mislead Association. anyone. The misleading is going on there. If there's mor- But what do these people know? They just represent ality in that, in making those kind of statements, I can't thousands and thousands of workers, huge investment see it. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I will be care- in this province. They drive the investment in this prov- ful, Madam Speaker. ince. But maybe we shouldn't listen to these business I heard some quotes from the member opposite. leaders. Maybe we should listen to Jim Sinclair. He's Perhaps the members opposite, who like to chirp a created a lot of jobs, I'm sure. I'm sure Jim Sinclair has lot…. Perhaps they want to just have the courage to go made huge investments through his organization, the and look some of these people in the eye and tell them B.C. Labour Council. There's been huge financial invest- they're wrong. ment just pouring out of that organization. No, Madam [1700] Speaker. I'd like to know if anyone in the NDP wants to stand The B.C. Ag Council, B.C. Business Council, B.C. up and say: "These people are wrong." "We think it's go- Chamber of Commerce, B.C. Lumber Trade Council, ing to be very good for the provincial economy over the Canada West Foundation, Coast Forest Products long term," says Jock Finlayson of the B.C. Business Association, Conference Board of Canada, Retail Council Council. Does he know what he's talking about? of Canada, New Car Dealers Association — golly — B.C. Construction Association. These are all people in fa- Interjection. vour. B.C. Pulp and Paper Steering Committee, truck loggers…. Hon. R. Hawes: Perhaps he doesn't. Is that what you're saying? Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Minister. Madam Speaker, are they saying he doesn't know? "Harmonization of the B.C. sales tax with the federal Hon. R. Hawes: But why would we listen to them? GST is one of the most important policy directions we Why would we listen to the business leaders of British can put in place today to position us for a strong recov- Columbia when we could listen to the NDP, who have ery at the end of our current economic difficulties," says never provided a paycheque to anyone? John Winter, president and CEO of B.C. Chamber of Commerce. I wonder who he represents. Oh, he repre- Deputy Speaker: Minister, thank you very much. sents the big corporations, doesn't he? Or maybe, just maybe, he represents moms and pops all over British N. Simons: Madam Speaker, it's an honour to stand Columbia. in this House and represent the constituents of Powell He's saying what they're saying, and that's that the River–Sunshine Coast, who stand solidly behind me and HST is good for us. But do you have the courage to step my colleagues when we decry this public policy double- out and say to Jock Finlayson or John Winter that they cross of the Liberal government, who announced one don't know what they're talking about? thing before the election and changed their mind six weeks after the election. Deputy Speaker: Minister, through the Chair. It's bad public policy. It's terrible public policy. It's hurtful public policy, and it was brought in through Hon. R. Hawes: Madam Speaker, I'm guessing not deceit by this government. Members like the one who one member opposite has the courage to go out and look bellowed before are capable of speaking loudly, but they at these people like Max Logan, B.C. director, Retail don't have an ounce of realism. They don't reflect the Council: "The time savings of collecting just one tax ver- people's concerns of this province, and they think that sus two is really going to make life easier." Or how about: by being bellicose, they can get away with anything. "This initiative is the biggest thing that could be done Well, that's going to stop, Madam Speaker, and they to boost the B.C. economy," says Craig Williams, vice- should know it. president, B.C. division, and Jayson Myers, president They're offering assistance, but their assistance to me and CEO, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters. is like their assistance to the people of this province. It's What about: "The implementation of the HST is nonexistent, it's fake, and it's a double-cross. The people one of the most important and innovative tax reforms of this province were double-crossed by the government the government could bring forward. The HST will who promised one thing before the election and did an improve B.C.'s tax competitiveness, attract new invest- entirely different thing after the election. If that's not an ment, improve productivity and create jobs. To proceed example of a double-cross, I don't know what is. with implementation, despite some public concern" — [1705] Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4137

[L. Reid in the chair.] want to claim that they're experts because they were once a realtor. I'm not making a comparison, but I There are approximately 85 percent of the province understand. who agree with me, 85 percent of the province who I taught criminology at the university level, and if I take insult from the comments of members oppos- had one paper submitted to me with one single refer- ite, 85 percent of the province who have listened to the ence to one person, I would fail that person in my class. failed arguments of this government and don't buy for a That's unheard of that a government can come to this minute that "Taste this; it's good for you," because that's House, present a complete change in their public policy not true. after an election and justify it with one reference — eight As you know, the people of the province are reeling months after. from one example of poor government after another. I'm speaking as a lecturer in criminology. If someone This was announced six weeks after an election, during submitted a term paper to me and claimed that their which period they had ample opportunity to come clean arguments were justified using one source — to be more with the people of this province. But instead they hid clear, if they used one source, if they used five sources their true intentions. They hid their true intentions dur- — that would be considered academically insufficient to ing the election period. Six weeks after the election, by make a proper argument. Yet this government, on the anybody's standard, even if it were good policy…. That's backs of the people, is going to justify their ill-thought- a bad thing to do, when we live in a democracy and out public policy based on the retroactive comments when we have already as much disenfranchisement as of one economist. That is a failure for this government. we have in this province. They wouldn't get past first year. My point is made. They're doing everything they can to make the people Earlier, another member referred to the boogeyman. of this province care less and less about government. I'm not sure if they're back or not. Well, the sooner they're out of there, the better. The The question before us is debate over a tax policy that sooner they're out of there, the better for the people of was contemplated before the election, according to the this province. member opposite. It was contemplated before the elec- There are so many arguments that will clearly indicate, tion. It was thought about before the election. It was as if we really need to make them…. I think the people apparently something that they'd thought about. of British Columbia have heard enough. They've heard [1710] enough from this government about their bad policies Ontario implemented the HST a month or two before that are going to punish them for simple purchases that the election. The federal government was offering incen- they've been able to make until the implementation of tives for provinces to buy into this system, yet somehow the HST. our Minister of Finance must have been relaxing some- They have one report. I used to teach in criminology. where, unaware of the public policy changes occurring I understand the Liberals pretty well. I was a criminolo- in large provinces in this country. gist, and I used to work in prisons. So conveniently, six weeks after the election was de- cided, the government decides to bring in not just an Deputy Speaker: Member. unpopular tax, but a tax that is regressive, a regressive tax that will shift the burden from large corporations N. Simons: Well, I'm speaking about…. to the individuals of this province — individuals who, I might say, polling results show to be against this tax by a Deputy Speaker: Member, is it your intention to im- margin of approximately 85 percent. pute an improper motive to another hon. member? Now, it's regressive because it hurts people in the pocketbook. It hurts for the goods and services that N. Simons: I'm not sure, Madam Speaker. If I said they've been purchasing without this tax, and it will hurt anything that would take any offence by any member them even more after July 1 if this goes through. opposite, I withdraw wholeheartedly, but I don't know I understand how there was some concern when I what I said. mentioned criminology, but my reference was, of course, now that I'm thinking about it, obviously about justifying Deputy Speaker: Thank you. a position. As a sessional instructor, you expect students to be able to justify their positions. I could have been a N. Simons: I'm a criminologist. I've got a master's psychology prof. I could have been anything. I'm talking degree in criminology. I understand the Liberal govern- about the fieldI was in. Yes, I did work in prisons. There ment. Those two — if you want to put them together, was an education program for prisoners, making sure that's the choice you can make on that side of the House. they were more capable of dealing with the challenges in But I'm telling you right now that they don't have to im- life after they get released. But I didn't necessarily think pugn what I do or what members of this side do. They of that when I looked at the minister across the way. 4138 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

But what we do have in this province right now is a tion to anybody who would suggest that there was some population that is outraged — outraged at the double- skulduggery. cross that they feel has been implemented by this [1715] government. I understand their sensitivity. They're ob- viously getting the huge amount of e-mail that we're Interjection. getting as well. I understand their difficulty in justifying an unjustifiable position. I know how it makes a person N. Simons: The minister wants to bring me back to a little bit cranky, might make them a little bit short- my high school days, and I'm not sure I want to go there. tempered, might make them a little bit sensitive and I understand this is not the Senate of Rome, and I under- might make them a bit paranoid. stand that he was a young man then. But I'm here now, But the fact of the matter remains that the vast major- and I'm representing the people now. I was elected first ity of British Columbians, who this party is supposed to in 2005. The member might remember that; he might represent as government, are angry that their govern- not. ment has turned their back on the people of this province I'm pleased to say that the people of Powell River– and has decided that somehow imposing higher costs Sunshine Coast were satisfied with my efforts to re-elect on households and household goods…. Regular, every- me again. I think that the minister opposite probably is day necessities are going to be higher. The list is huge. a little bit sensitive, because if he went before the people The list is long. We've heard others mention it. of his constituency now, with the information that the Of course, members from the government side aren't people of the province have now, he would find himself going to list these, you know. The taxes, the increases are out of work. on top of the other costs that have been imposed by this Perhaps he would go back to being a realtor, but he government through their lack of action or for their wil- would find himself punished by his government's poli- ful action. Those, you know — hydro, Terasen rates…. cies, as a realtor. So he's sort of caught between a rock We've got ferry rates that have skyrocketed, impacting and a hard place. That's a fine place for him. I'm not go- my community in a huge way. Many of them probably ing to have a problem with that. But there is certainly a don't travel on the ferries, but many of my constituents huge list of individuals and agencies that are very con- have to do that out of necessity. They visit doctors by cerned about this. taking the ferry. They sometimes shop; they have to take Let me just talk about the community social ser- the ferry. They go to work. They take the ferry every vices sector, which whether the members opposite…. I day. give them credit for understanding the importance of The minister may not care about those people in my community social services, not that that translates into constituency. He certainly doesn't seem to be concerned support. about the 85 percent of the population that disagree We all know what community social service or- fundamentally with his party's platform. Not the party's ganizations do for our community — maintain our platform. Rather, their party's actions, because their cohesiveness and ensure that we don't have people left platform didn't mention this. I might have pointed that completely without supports, whether it be the record out already. number of homeless people in the province, whether it be the record number of children living in poverty or Interjection. whether it be the number of children who are left with- out supports after being abused or neglected. N. Simons: Absolutely correct. I am absolutely The social service agencies do provide important ser- correct, and the Minister of Labour, or minister of vice to our communities, and they have been cut. They something that he shouldn't be, is agreeing with me. So have had $10 million cut from their community social I'm not alone, and I don't feel any sort of negativity from services budget. On top of that, they've had to pay for members from the government side. They know that the municipal pension plan, and on top of it now, they I'm speaking on behalf of the vast majority of British have to pay for the HST, with a very minimal rebate Columbians when I say that they should change their compared to other agencies. mind about this tax or, if not, put it before the people of Just taking the social services sector alone, we know the province if they're that sure about it. that the burden of the HST will be great. We know that If the minister opposite and the members opposite are if social services agencies making choices about their that sure that this is the appropriate public policy state- budget…. We know that since 2002, when the core re- ment or public policy to take, they should not have fear view happened, they've been cut to the bone, and now of bringing that before the people of the province. By the they're being asked to cut even more. most neutral arbiter, looking at this situation, they will When you do that in social service agencies, what you see that a tax imposition of this magnitude so shortly do is you create the cracks that our system should be after an election certainly can provide ample ammuni- designed to eliminate. When you cut back funding for Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4139

agencies that need to have good communications with We saw this government implement pay parking in each other in communities, what you're cutting out is the parks. We've seen them cut environmental protection. that ability to communicate. You're cutting out social We've seen them now increase camping fees. We've seen programs that are impacting children, programs that policies that make it more difficult for families to go camp- have been proven over a long period of time to be bene- ing, and now we see an HST, an HST that's going to certainly ficial for children. make many families think twice about how they're going In my constituency we have programs that support to spend their holidays. We would like to encourage people young people who may be in trouble with the law, young to stay in British Columbia, stay in the province so that we people who are having trouble finding stable living ar- can, you know, support our own economy and experience rangements, young people who are having difficulty and explore the wonder of our natural assets. holding down jobs. We have children who have wit- Policies that infringe on individuals' choices like nessed violence, children who have been victims of that…. I find that troubling, very troubling. But camp- sexual abuse. We have programs that promote parenting ing fees aren't the only thing. skills for parents who may have challenges themselves, They're dinging us with increases too.E verything from the whole array of programs for communities, and those taxi fares, veterinary care, yoga, dance classes, mem- communities' programs need to be supported. berships for gyms, ice rentals if your kid's in hockey or When you see a government removing funding from figure skating or broomball or ice fishing — oh no, not their core services, from their operational funding, from ice fishing — haircuts, personal care products…. their capital funding and then, on top of it, announce a punitive tax that will add major costs to their operations Interjections. without any compensation or even acknowledgment of that, I think those agencies are right to be extremely N. Simons: See, I'm just wondering if they're listen- concerned. ing, Madam Speaker. I don't know. Now, I don't want I'm concerned because of the tenuous position it puts to see any of them wandering onto a sheet of ice with a agencies in, but I'm even more concerned because of little stick with a hook on the end of it. I know they're the tenuous position it leaves children and vulnerable in need of finding fans, but they're not going to find it families in. I notice that on this topic there seems to be below the surface of an ice rink. rather more agreement than simply that the HST is bad Bicycles, bicycle repairs, wedding planning, catering, for individuals. It's bad for agencies. It's bad for com- funerals — that's almost a life span, and all of those munity social service agencies. They have said so loudly, costs are going to be increasing when July 1 comes clearly and succinctly to government, to no avail. along. Events, festivals — the choral festivals and writ- Ultimately, we have to remember that government ers festivals and folk festivals. Admission to those events said one thing before the election and did another thing are going to up. They're going to have to go up, and you after. Their concerns and their complaints and their at- have to pay that price now if the event takes place after tempts to get the government's ear have failed. July 1. Basic residential telephone service will now have [1720] an additional tax. Basic cable TV service, smoke alarms, It's a sad day in democracy when you see a govern- work safety equipment, energy-saving building materi- ment so turn its back on the people who have elected als. Bicycles. Did I mention bicycles? them. It's just bad for democracy. The items that I'm enumerating…. You know, as an opposition member, for the last couple of months…. People say: "How are things going?" An Hon. Member: You forgot haircuts. I say: "Well, you know, everyone's mad at the govern- ment." I can duck, you know. I just get out of the way of N. Simons: I did forget a haircut, and I forgot haircuts the line of fire. Everybody is mad at government. on my list. It's two things. It's not just the double-cross, which in What I see as problematic, and others have pointed my opinion is enough to be a reason in itself to oppose this out as well, is that the jurisdiction that the province any government policy, but it's the impact, the impact has had over taxation is going to be eroded. Our ability on families — just regular families. to shape public policy, as governments do, through taxa- It's bad enough that government has increased the tion policy will be lessened. I think this is really quite an cost of camping in this province. They've allowed the in- important issue that has in some ways sort of become crease in cost for trailers on ferries. So for people with secondary to the other issues of the double-cross and a tent trailer now on ferries, it's almost too exorbitant the cost to individuals, but it's our jurisdiction over our for them to consider coming to a coastal community ability to shape taxation policy. for a holiday. It's certainly much more expensive. And [1725] now we're having an additional tax, an additional tax on So far, I have just pointed out that the people of the camping fees. province are adamantly opposed to this tax, partly be- 4140 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

cause they feel that they were double-crossed, and But despite the Minister of State for Mining's claims secondly, because they see such a large list of items for that they were thinking about this, other members which they're going to be paying more. They're also con- said they hadn't heard about it until after the election. cerned about the cost of so many other services — the So now I'm wondering: did some members of cabinet increase in the medical services premium, and I men- know? Because the member seems to think that some- tioned ferry fares, B.C. Hydro. how we all said we wanted an HST. Let's just talk about schools for a moment. You know, [1730] as much as we get berated for not listening to individ- I mean, I think he pulled that out of thin air, because uals that support their side of this, if you will, there are I understand that the minister, in defence, said that this important agencies which are not themselves getting was not on his radar. You know, when it comes to pub- any benefit from being critical. lic policy, I'm not sure radar is the best way to identify I always think about the source of supporters. What's trends. your source? So it's not just good enough to have one Let me just, for the minister's information, make a source. If you have more than one source, and you enum- few points here. This is a quote from the Premier of the erate them, question their particular perspective…. We've province on August 7, 2009. I should point out this was seen a correlation, at least, between government policy shortly after the people of the province woke up to the and who their supporters are. We see that in private power. shock of being told that they were going to be subject to We see that in new car dealers. We see it in optometry the HST. regulations. I could probably name quite a few others. "The fact of the matter is it wasn't on our radar. We The simple fact remains that the people of the prov- didn't engage in any discussions." Why would they, if it ince can draw that line. They can see who donates to the wasn't on their radar? But he pointed it out. "We didn't Liberal party. They can see what policy the government engage in any discussions. I wasn't thinking about it implements. When you withdraw that line, sometimes until after the election." it's eye-opening. "I wasn't thinking about it until after the election." Was So when the government tells us who's supporting it "I didn't think about it" or "I hadn't thought about it, their particular perspective, they don't mention indi- but I wasn't thinking about it until after the election"?I n viduals like the seniors or the families or the kids or other words, he didn't want to think about it more than the young people. They mention organizations claim- just letting it pass through his mind. ing to represent entire industries, and I think that's The people of the province were not convinced by this. unfair, partly because I've spoken to many people who Here's another quote. "After the election, asI mentioned, are members of chambers of commerce. I've spoken to the Deputy Minister of Finance came and said: 'Look, many people in other agencies that the members oppos- let's find out what's going on in Ontario and how that's ite have cited as supporting the HST. working.'" I can say it's certainly not unanimous, because when They'd heard about it. They definitely heard about it. you have 85 percent of the population disapproving a They knew our most populous province in the country government policy, you need to know that it's a lot was implementing this massive change in public policy, more than those listed by government. Municipalities in taxation. Yet they didn't go any further. They didn't — they're going to certainly feel the hit, and of course, start thinking about it until after the election. I'm glad when municipalities have to pay more, it's the people I'm not the only one that finds the opportunity for satire that are going to be paying more. rich and fertile. I find the government's defensiveness on this and But you know, the people of the province are going to their secretiveness on this entirely troubling. If it was a hear more about this. We'll be called fearmongers more. tactful election scheme, then it's equally troubling, be- We'll point out the obviously duplicitous nature of this cause they would have had an opportunity to put this policy. The people of the province are going to have to idea before the people of the province, and they would continue to follow this and continue to engage in pub- have had an opportunity — maybe a better opportunity lic policy, which I think is a good thing. Unfortunately, than they have now — to make their point. it's over an issue that causes a lot of anger. It's not the They would have been engaged in debates, all-candi- best way, in my opinion, to engage the public. But I'm dates' debates. They would have been going door to door. glad the public is engaged, because through this HST we They would have met people in parking lots. They would have a view into the manner in which this government have met them in the mall. They would have spoken at operates. schools. They would have addressed community service I hope the people of the province see the HST as the groups. They could have addressed religious organiza- symbol of how this government operates, because it's a tions, and they would have been able to put before these clear one. It's straightforward, and it's easily understood. people the idea, the government's idea on what their Logic would suggest that government is aware of the plans were for the province. mistake it has made — not just the mistake of promising Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4141

one thing before the election and doing something after an impact in terms of companies deciding which mills contrary to their promises, but also that they didn't do stay open and which mills close. due diligence in examining the impact. It's such a fine margin at those very fine rates of re- turn when you're selling lumber for as little as $135 a Hon. P. Bell: Madam Speaker, it's a pleasure for me thousand board feet, which we're only about 14 months to rise and take my place in what is undoubtedly one away from now. Just over a year ago that was the price of the most important debates that will likely take place of lumber. Even a year ago it was under $200 a thousand in this House in the second decade of the 21st century. board feet. Although the HST has become a controversial issue, I do That $7 a thousand board feet easily makes the dif- think it is one of the most important things we can do to ference between that mill or that operation staying help support our rural resource-based economies in this open and that mill closing. We are in a global industry. province. I'm going to take some time to articulate why Certainly anyone that is involved in the forest industry, I believe that is so important. in the mining industry or in the energy industry under- The resource economies are what built this province. stands that we are competing with jurisdictions all over When you go back over the decades and consider the the world. importance of the forest industry, the mining industry That $7 a thousand board feet might make the differ- and the energy industries, they are clearly what have ence between the mill in British Columbia closing versus provided us with the wealth that has been necessary to the mill in Washington State or in Oregon or in Norway build the transportation infrastructure, the hospitals or in Chile or in New Zealand or in some other jurisdic- and the education system that we are all so very proud tion. Surely we have the responsibility to make sure that of today. we have the most competitive forest sector anywhere in Yet our export industries have been very challenged, the world. particularly in the last number of years, as a result of You know, we often talk about being top performers global economic trends. So it's important that we pos- and mills that are very effective operations.T ypically, we ition ourselves and our export-based industries in a way refer to those as top-quartile performers — mills that are that ensures that they are the most competitive export- operating in the top 25 percent of operations around the based industries anywhere in the world. world. I think one of the things we learned from this most [1735] recent downturn is that that's not good enough anymore. You know, there are about 30 or so forestry-based We can't just be a top-quartile performer because if we jurisdictions that all vie for the international market- are, we're still subjected to the marketplace and the risks place to sell their lumber products. Whether that's associated with the marketplace and mill closures. somewhere close to us like Washington State or Alberta That's not something that any of us are proud of or or somewhere further away like Chile or New Zealand, are happy about. In fact, we want the exact opposite. We Norway, the Scandinavian countries or other jurisdic- want to make sure that all of our mill operations have the tions around the world, 29 of those 30 jurisdictions have ability to operate in the absolute worst markets around something in common. the world because we are the most efficient and the most That is that every single one of them has a value-added competitive anywhere in the world. tax model that does not ask the communities that im- This is one key element that helps support that.L et me port their goods to pay a tax back into that jurisdiction. share with the members opposite some of the thinking They all operate under a model where, when they ex- around this and some of the cost implications. I come port goods from their jurisdiction, they don't tax those with a logging background. I used to log throughout the goods as they leave the jurisdiction. 1990s, so I'm pretty familiar with the cost structures that There's one of those 30 or so jurisdictions across the are involved in it. world that don't do that, and that's British Columbia to- If you were to go out today and purchase a new log- day. In fact, we impose upon our export industries — our ging truck to add to your fleet — something that I'm energy industry, our forest industry, our mining indus- hopeful we're going to actually see people doing in the tries — a tax that is equivalent to about 2 or 3 percent coming months and years as we see the industry re- in embedded taxes that flow out into those jurisdictions. invigorated — the PST on that truck by itself ranges, For the forest industry, that works out to about $7 per depending on the type of truck you purchase, between thousand board feet. about $14,000 and $17,000. Now, in very good economic times that $7 per thou- That's not something that individual can ever recover. sand board feet is probably not all that relevant, not a The tires on the truck get charged PST, and all of the re- game changer, not something that would be impactful. pairs and other costs to that truck get charged PST. That But in very challenging economic times like we have just PST gets embedded in the system. It gets embedded in come through, clearly it is a game changer. Clearly, that the cost of the logs that are harvested and brought to the $7 a thousand board feet on our export lumber will have mill. Then when the mill mills those logs into lumber 4142 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

and ships them overseas, clearly that cost gets embed- labour movement, and I have to tell you that I think the ded in that lumber and those logs. steelworkers have worked hard to make sure that we [1740] have the most competitive industry that we can possibly That's what is really key here. We need to be cost com- have. petitive. We have some of the best mills anywhere in the Frank Everitt, who is a leader of the steelworkers in world. When you look at an operation like Interfor in northern British Columbia, has worked hard to estab- Chase on Adams Lake, $100 million of investment in lish new relationships with the businesses to make sure that operation has made it a world leader. By removing that we are competitive and to make sure that it's not the PST from the system and moving to a value-added his members that are put out of work when times are tax, it will make them that much more competitive, and difficult. it will make sure that those employees continue to work You look at the U.S. housing market, Madam Speaker. in the most difficult times. Clearly, that's been a huge challenge for our forest in- You know, Madam Speaker, when I look around the dustry. When you go from two million homes per year room, I think about some of the areas that are repre- down to half a million homes per year, you're going to sented by some of the members in this room and how have mill closures. forest-dependent these communities are. The member I understand that you're going to have mill clos- for North Island sits across the way, and I know that she ures. I just don't want those mill closures to be here in knows the importance of the forest industry in her com- British Columbia. If they end up closing in Alberta or in munities. I know that's a key driver. She often talks to me Washington State or in Chile or somewhere else around about what she can do to help support some of the small the world, I understand and accept that. But we have to be value-added operations, and I think she does a great job competitive, and the HST is about improving competitive- trying to support that and move that forward. ness and making sure that we are not just a top-quartile This is one of those elements that makes some of those performer but that we're a top-decile performer. value-added producers in the member opposite's riding In my view, the HST is built around the principle that much more competitive. When they're trying to ex- of supporting our export industries. Clearly, those port a shake or shingle from their marketplace, the cost large exporting industries that we have here in British is reduced on that, and they can then compete with the Columbia — our forestry, our mining, our energy and best anywhere in the world. It means they have a viable actually, interestingly, our film as well…. Those are the operation that can sustain itself through difficult down- four key industries that import significant dollars from turns in the marketplace. other jurisdictions into our province and ensure that we You know, if British Columbia was an island and we have the level of support that is necessary for all of the only served our own needs, it would perhaps be a differ- services we provide. ent market. But if we were to do that today, if we were to What's interesting for me is you don't have to look only supply the lumber products that we consume here very far to hear people that typically have varying views in British Columbia instead of exporting the lumber on political issues, to find out that there clearly is align- around the world, 19 out of 20 sawmills that are open ment on the shift to HST on the part of economists. today would be closed, and 19 out of 20 jobs that we I had a very interesting debate a number of months have in the forest industry today would be gone, because ago with an individual, Iglika Ivanova, from the CCPA, we export 95 percent of the lumber that we produce here the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, in Prince in British Columbia. George. The CCPA, as I'm sure most people will know, If we were to rely only on the minerals that we con- does not typically support policy positions of this gov- sume here in British Columbia for our own needs, ernment. They tend to align themselves more frequently almost all the mines would close. All the coalmines cer- with the opposition than they do with our government. tainly would close, because we export 100 percent of the [1745] coal that's produced here in British Columbia. All of the As I did the research to prepare myself for the debate, jobs that are associated with that would go. I found very quickly that the CCPA very much sees a If we were to only consume the pulp and paper that value-added tax or an HST model of tax as the right we need here in British Columbia and if all the other driver of economic activity and actually believes that is pulp mills were to close, we'd have maybe about half a the right model. pulp mill that would remain open instead of the literally Well, we may vary on some issues within the HST, on thousands and thousands of high-paying, family- some of our thinking. That largely revolves around de- supporting jobs. Many of the things that we have done tails in terms of thresholds and where cutoffs should have worked very effectively for the forest industry, but come, in terms of exemptions around the HST model. we need to continue to build on that. But the key principle of a value-added tax, or HST, is one I think there are lots of people in the industry who that the CCPA does support. Clearly, that has been iden- understand this. I have worked hard to meet with the tified on their website as well as in the debate. Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4143

It was a very interesting debate, because what I found and down the riding and you look at Merritt, it's clearly and what we found very quickly was that we were a centre of forestry. Aspen Planers and Tolko are two aligned in terms of our views on a value-added tax. It key mills in that community that employ hundreds and really became a debate around details. I think, actually, hundreds of people. But the spinoff jobs that are associ- that's the level of discussion we should be having. We ated with those mills create far more employment and should all clearly understand that HST value-added tax long-term support for the community of Merritt. is the right model for economic stimulus and for ensur- I challenge the member for Fraser-Nicola, when he ing that we have the best possible opportunities for our takes his place in this House, to say to the employees that export-based industries. But at the same time, let's make they matter, that the HST will make us that much more sure that we work through the details and that the de- competitive, and that in fact that member will stand up tails of the model are correct. and support the HST because he absolutely knows that Recently a report by Dr. Mintz, the economist Mintz, the HST will help support those jobs in the community clearly says, again, that the HST is the right model of tax- even in the most challenging of times. ation. What's interesting for me is that it really doesn't [1750] matter who you go and talk to. Economists around the The member forN anaimo–North Cowichan. Two key world acknowledge that when you remove that taxa- operations are in his riding: Harmac, which is a tremen- tion from your export industries, your export industries dous success story, something that I think we all have have a much better chance of success. Bringing in those seen as just an incredibly successful operation; and then dollars from foreign jurisdictions and putting them the Ladysmith mill that is not currently operating. internally within your economy helps support all the You know, there was at one point in time at Ladysmith service-related sectors inside the economy as well. not 200 but close to 200 employees working in that oper- I think we need to make sure that people clearly ation. I know he's already taken his place in the House understand that the HST does help support small, rural, on this debate, but I challenge that member to think resource-based economies and will help us be that much about those jobs, those 200 people. more competitive. Would that Ladysmith mill be operating today if the The opposition often talks about their forestry plan HST was in place and Western Forest Products was that and support for forestry and looking for initiatives, of much more competitive? You know what? I know that which we have taken many, and I'm very supportive. We Ladysmith mill is at a decision point, and very, very had, I think, 5½ pages in our platform document that quickly, I'm hoping we'll have some good news. But spoke specifically to forestry. We're executing on the would they have opened earlier? Would those guys have plan, and it's working well. gone back to work? Would those ladies have gone back TheN DP often talk about the need for a forestry plan, to work if that mill had been operating? Again, I think and I would suggest to you that in fact if they believe that is absolutely the case. that, they need to come on side with the HST. When I look across the way and think about some of the mem- Interjection. bers opposite…. The member for Skeena. Skeena has had very chal- Hon. P. Bell: I hear the member from Cowichan lenging times in forestry over the last ten or 15 years, Valley chirping away over there. Again, there are a num- going back well into the 1990s, and in fact just recently ber of operations in that member's riding that could suffered the loss of theE urocan linerboard plant and the easily reopen under a model that sees the most com- literally hundreds and hundreds of jobs that were asso- petitive environment in the world, the most competitive ciated with that plant. Yet by having an HST in place, taxation environment in the world, and you do that by that plant becomes that much more competitive. The supporting the HST. These members opposite can sit opportunity for that plant to survive is much more real over on the other side and chirp away all they want, or with an HST in place. they can do the right thing, because what those guys are The member for Skeena I don't think has spoken yet, saying over there… and I would challenge him to stand up and say: "Yes, HST is the right thing. It is the right thing for forestry- Interjections. dependent communities." It helps us be that much more competitive. It helps make sure that the almost 500 Deputy Speaker: Members. Members. people who were working at Eurocan have a chance to actually have those high-paying, industrial, family- Hon. P. Bell: …is that they don't care about those supporting jobs that we all care about in this province. jobs. They don't care about those jobs in the riding. The I look at the member for Fraser-Nicola, heavily question is: will they stand up and do the right thing? dependent forest-based communities, lots of small com- Will they stand up and do the right thing and actually munities in that member's riding. When you look up support the HST, which reduces costs on the mill? 4144 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

Now, on this side of the House we believe in free votes. I know that the critic has taken some time to look We have seen that time and again. We have seen free votes at this, and I know, actually, that he understands and time and again. In fact, in this session we saw a member accepts that this is good for the forest industry. His argu- opposing an element of a bill that he didn't support. ment is somewhat different in terms of…. He looks at But you know, my real challenge to the members other components of the economy, and I guess I accept opposite, those that represent forest-dependent com- that that's the way he wants to look at it. munities — those that we know for a fact have hundreds I know that the critic actually understands that the and hundreds of employees, key union individuals forest industry is a significant beneficiary from the HST whose jobs depend on the forest industry — is to stand and our ability to compete, but it appears that some of up and do the right thing, because that's really what it the members from Vancouver Island — not all, but a few comes down to. of them in particular — are in denial that this is not an The forest industry is what built this province, and it's element that does support competitiveness. been very challenging in the last few years in terms of You know, it's the unfortunate side of the business trying to make sure that we have the most competitive in- when you have that reality, when people are in that level dustry around the world. Although the members opposite of denial, because that really is what has challenged the don't like to face the realities of the global downturn and coastal forest products industry for some time. Although particularly the U.S. housing market, if they would just we're trying hard to rebuild that industry and make sure take the time to look at British Columbia, they would know that they are competitive globally, that is what has to hap- that we are a top-quartile performer. This new element, this pen. If you are a high-cost producer, there is no question change is a real game changer for our people. that in difficult times your mill is going to close. It makes sure that all of our operations have the ad- I don't want that for anyone in British Columbia. I vantage, the opportunity to export their lumber around don't want that for the millworkers. I don't care whether the world — to make sure that they can compete with they're in Cowichan or in Prince George. I don't care Norway, make sure that they can compete with Chile, whether they're in Fort Nelson or Revelstoke. I want all make sure that they compete with Argentina, with all of of those people working in those mills. That comes from the forest jurisdictions around the world. being competitive, and everyone has to do their part to You know, Madam Speaker, these people that like be competitive. Everyone has to make the decision: what to kind of chirp away on the other side all the time are is more important here — a high-paying industrial job either in denial on this issue or aren't being honest with or a cheap cup of coffee? their constituents. I would challenge them to go and talk For me the answer is pretty simple. I want to make to the CCPA because the Canadian Centre for Policy sure that the people who work in our forest industry, Alternatives…. the people who work in our mining industry, the people who work in our energy industry are working in indus- Interjections. tries that are vibrant, that are successful and that are not just top-quartile performers but top-decile performers. Deputy Speaker: Minister, please take your seat. When there is a difficult time in the marketplace…. Members, I need to hear the debate that is underway. All of these industries are cyclical, and we will go back Minister, please continue. to a point in time — although we seem to be in a re- covery mode at this point, and I think that's good news Hon. P. Bell: The members opposite, I know, trad- for everyone — when we face a downturn. I want our itionally have respected the views of the Canadian people to be able to continue to operate through that Centre for Policy Alternatives. In fact, when they were downturn. government…. Some will argue that they weren't in I know that members opposite feel that way as well. I government — in fact, I guess all of them at this point. know there isn't a single person in this House that rel- But some of them, when they were in government, were ishes the idea of seeing a forestry worker laid off because a constant source of policy advice for the NDP through of a difficult time in the market. The HST is a game the 1990s. changer for the forest industry. I'm not a huge CCPA fan. I'm not someone that relies I used the simple example of a logging truck owner. I on them for advice. But I think what is interesting, and was one, so I understand that. I know what those costs what I would suggest to the members opposite if they are. I can go through the entire gamut of the forest in- don't believe me on this issue…. I understand there's dustry and point to the costs that are embedded in the political partisanship in here. I understand that they forest industry in terms of the PST versus a value-added- might not necessarily want to follow the advice that I'm tax system. giving them. I would suggest they go talk to the CCPA If there's one plea, I guess, that I have to the mem- and ask them what this does for the forest industry. bers opposite, it's to really take the time to understand [1755] the impact of the HST on our export industries, particu- Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4145

larly on our forest industry. I do think that they owe it For us to provide the level of services that the public to their constituents. I do think they owe it to make sure is asking us to provide, we need to have a vibrant econ- that they fully understand the impact and the potential omy in this province. We cannot afford to have people benefits of the HST to make sure that our forest indus- unemployed and not working, particularly in our key try workers are actually physically working, that they industries — in forestry, mining, energy, even in film. are as competitive as we can possibly be, that in fact our Those are key industries for us that we need to compete guys are the guys that are working when a market gets globally in, in order to be successful. difficult. As the members opposite take time over the com- Although the member opposite might be okay…. ing weeks to listen to reasoned arguments on both sides of the House, I would strongly encourage them to take Interjection. some time, read the Mintz report, understand what it means in terms of being globally competitive. Deputy Speaker: Member, you will direct your com- Take the time to go and talk to some of the leaders in ments through the Chair when you are on the floor. the forest industry, to some of the leaders in the min- ing industry, and say: "What does this mean to you as Hon. P. Bell: Madam Speaker, it might be okay an industry? Does it mean you're going to be able to from the member opposite's viewpoint to have some- employ more people? Does it mean you're going to stay one working in Washington State, Oregon, Quebec or open when you might have closed otherwise, when you Ontario instead of a British Columbia–based forest might have had to lay off 200 or 300 people? Does that company investing in working. But it's not okay for me, mean you're going to be able to stay open and survive and I actually don't think it's okay for the member op- that next little go-around, that next little challenge in the posite. I think he's just playing partisan politics over this, economy?" and I guess that's the role he has to play. Because it will come. It's our responsibility as legisla- I would challenge each and every one of the members tors, as elected officials, to try and position our industry opposite, whether it's the member for Alberni–Pacific in a way that ensures that doesn't happen. Rim, who has three or four different manufacturing fa- W.A.C. Bennett was a tremendous leader. He left us a cilities in his riding — Western Forest Products, Somass, tremendous legacy behind in this province, and he did Catalyst, Coulson — the member for Nanaimo–North it by building a resource sector that was second to none Cowichan or the member for Nanaimo, with Western — a resource industry that ensured that we had the fis- Forest Products at Duke Point with just a few jobs there cal resources that we needed in this province to have a today but the potential for 130 additional jobs in a highly standard of living second to none, to build the quality of competitive environment. life that we see across this province, regardless of where [1800] you're from. You know, we're competing globally. This isn't just Whether you're from Victoria or Fort Nelson, it about British Columbia. People who think that British doesn't matter. Whether you're from Haida Gwaii or Columbia can work through economic downturns down in the Kootenays in Castlegar or Creston, he had globally don't understand the impacts of the globe and the vision, the courage, the guts to make the difficult the importance of our export-based industries, the im- decisions to make sure this province was the most com- portance of us being able to compete with the best of petitive province anywhere in the world. the best. TheH ST is going to do that, and I encourage each and When I go over to China to sell lumber, they don't care every one of the members opposite to pay attention, get where they get it from. They want the most competitive on side and support the HST. It will make us the most product they can get, and we owe it to our industry. We competitive jurisdiction in the world. owe it to the employees on the line in Quesnel, on the line in Port Alberni, on the line in Campbell River to C. Trevena: I have to say it's very interesting to be make sure that their operations are the most competi- standing up after the Minister of Forests and Range has tive in the world, and we have to do that collaboratively. given his comments and finished his comments extol- We have to do that together. ling the benefits of W.A.C. Bennett and what he did for When the member opposite starts chirping away at the forest industry. I think what the minister forgot to those comments, clearly he shows that he doesn't under- mention in this — and it's very relevant to the debate stand that we are living in a global climate. about the harmonized sales tax and the replacement of I think that many of the members opposite do under- the provincial sales tax — is that W.A.C. Bennett also stand this, and for those that want to take the time to had a social contract. do the research, as I've said, I would strongly encour- When a company had access to our Crown lands and age them to go and look at some of the work that's been our Crown timber, they also had to create jobs through done on this. industry. The minister was talking about all the wonder- 4146 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

ful investments that forest companies could make, that debate. There hasn't been that debate about the HST the manufacturing could have in our communities, and from day one, from when it was going to be introduced. talked in one community about how there were two key I think that people's concern…. We keep quoting and mills and the thousands of highly paying jobs that there will continue to quote the 82 percent who oppose the are in the forest sector and in the value-added sector. HST and however many of those are strongly opposed. Well, he can't speak about that for the north Island, Eight out of ten people at the moment oppose the intro- because the two key mills in Campbell River closed. duction of the HST. They oppose it because they do feel When the TimberWest sawmill closed, it meant, really, they've been deceived. the death-knell for the Catalyst pulp mill. So no matter If there had been a discussion at the election last April, what the HST does, no matter what's going to be hap- this time last year; if the HST had been on the table; if pening with the HST, it's not going to be benefiting the there had been an open opportunity for people to have forest industry in Campbell River. It's not going to be a debate, talk about the pros of it, the cons of it, how it's benefiting the workers of Campbell River. going to affect small business, how it's going to affect [1805] value-added, how it's going to affect the industries that I will come back to some of the discussions about the we cite — the restaurant industry, the tourism industry, forest industry later on in my remarks, but I have to say the hairdressers, how it's going to impact those — and that I am very pleased that the minister didn't cite, in likewise how it's going to impact the side that govern- his chain-of-production line, what other members have ment's talking about, the small businesses that they say been citing. The minister talked about the running of are going to be involved…. If they'd had that full debate, logging trucks and when you're having to pay cost upon I think that people could have accepted it more. cost. We get that. On this side of the House we do under- But people felt that they didn't have that opportunity stand what this involves. to have the debate. They felt that it was unfair that we I have talked to friends in the business community had the election and that it was not, as we have heard who will say they like the HST. They don't like the PST. time and again quoted, on anybody's radar — that it was They think it's going to make things easier. It's going to not there. Yes, it was happening in Ontario, but it was make life easier for them. not something that was really going to be happening in The example I have been hearing in the last two days B.C. — and we have only been debating this for two days, sur- If there had been forewarning through the election, prisingly — is the chain of production, where you've got I don't think we'd be where we are today. I don't think the guy going into the bush with his chainsaw, and he's we'd be having the 82 percent opposed. There'd be a lot going to cut down a few trees. As we see these logs move of people very disgruntled. There's no question. We al- through the system, eventually they are going to pro- ways have this discussion. duce chairs here in B.C. I think what is missing in this People don't like taxes. People don't like flat taxes. As scenario is the fact that we don't have that chain of pro- I go on and talk a bit about taxation policy, I will stand duction in B.C. anymore. here and say how I don't like flat taxes. Progressive taxa- What we do have is guys going to the bush, and we tion is a good form of taxation. Flat taxes that eventually may have people paying more than they would hope end up meaning the consumer pays more are not a fair to pay in taxation through provincial sales tax on the part of taxation. various pieces of equipment. The HST may well make Again, talking to business colleagues, talking to people a difference for them, but it isn't going to be creating that I know who run businesses…. They accept that yes, this wonderful chain, where we will end up having our it may be good for their business, but they also know chairs built here in B.C., unless the government is ser- that they're going to be paying more in the long run. Flat ious about reintroducing the W.A.C. Bennett style of taxes are not the best way, I believe and this side of the social contract, where people really care about the end House believes, to be funding the economy. results. [1810] There's been discussion here about what we're talking But if we'd had more of a discussion back this time about — the HST; the PST; the bill itself, which is the last year, April last year, when we were all out on the Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act; what it all sidewalks, all knocking on the front doors and saying, means; and the idea that we need to have some debate "This is where we want to take the province," we'd have on tax policy. I think that will be very healthy. I think had a very different outcome, and I don't think we'd be that if we could take away some of the partisan issues having this debate. here, if we could broaden this into a debate about what After the election, six weeks on, we hear that we're go- we want to see in taxation, that would be very healthy. ing to get the HST. There hasn't been any research. It's I think one of the reasons, definitely, that we on this not been on anybody's radar that this is what's going to side of the House have been so strongly opposed to the happen. What we end up with is that 82 percent don't harmonized sales tax is because there hasn't been that like it. Many of those — 87 percent — believe that it's Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4147

going to cost them money, and 71 percent of people are from a senior. He lives in Port McNeil and is concerned strongly opposed. That's seven out of ten people who are about the costs. Because he heard about the HST in the strongly opposed to this decision. summer, he decided to track how much it would be. His As I say, if there had been the research, if we'd had view is that it's an unfair tax. It's what he says in his e- the discussion and we'd been given a fully documented mail to me. argument…. But again, we see research coming in March Countering the fact that the amount of the costs of this year which undermines people's faith that this is wouldn't be too great, he says: anything more than, really, the opportunity to have a "To get a better idea of what to expect, I tracked what the actual model that will allow $1.6 billion to be transferred from costs may be, calculating the costs of an additional 7 percent on two weeks of purchases this past September and again in Nov- the federal government to the province to help through ember. I've also calculated how much extra I'd have to pay on a the deficit which has, as we all know, got a lot higher six-day holiday in B.C. this past October." than anybody predicted it was going to be. So we have [1815] the $1.6 billion there. These are seniors on a fixed income. I think that if people had had more of that debate, "Our extra costs from September 1 to 14 would have been they would be happier about it. Likewise, if the govern- $31.36. Part of that total is calculated tax on a couple of books, and I understand they may now be exempt. For the first two ment had just said, "We need this money. We need the weeks in November the added costs would have equalled $19.33. $1.6 billion. We're going to have this. It has proven to be Our seven-day holiday additional costs would have been between here, here and here," and brought this well before…. $90 and $100. I did not calculate the added cost of gasoline." Whether it's the VAT in Europe…. I know it's 17 per- He should have done. cent in Britain. It's 20 percent in other parts of Europe. "Based on these examples, the average additional yearly cost In many other countries it's very high. If they'd brought could be as high as $700 for a senior couple, and I believe it costs young families more." these arguments in much earlier and had said, "We need Madam Speaker, $700 for a senior couple may not this money because we need to fund our provincial sound a lot, and it isn't the thousands of dollars that services. We need to pay off the deficit. We need to do have been quoted in this e-mail that's being going this…." But to come in and then to say in the budget in around. We have the list here: November 1, newspapers the beginning of March that the HST is needed because cost $9.88, and some other things — those are expensive we need to pay for health care…. I think that was really, newspapers — building in the GST, the PST and how for people I've talked to, somehow the icing on the cake. much, breaking down hotel costs, and so on…. These It's the one that really makes people shudder and say: are seniors. These are seniors who have a fixed income "This is just too much. Yes, you're going to bring in taxes. and are concerned that that extra 7 percent is going to Yes, you didn't come out openly and say you're going really impact them. to bring in the taxes early enough. What do we expect The other peopleI 've been hearing from, like others, from politicians, yourself included?" But now to be told are people in the business community. As I say, I it's to pay for health care…. People really just say that know some who say that it's going to be fine. But on this is too much. This really is too much. the north Island I have mentioned that we have the We've heard through the last couple of days before the issue of forestry. Following the Minister of Forests break and now again today a lot of different arguments and Range's discussion about how good it is, hope- and a lot of different assertions about the harmonized fully it will help those small, value-added operators sales tax from both sides of the House. We've had a lot who are trying to make business through their small of people reading into the record, from constituents, dif- mills work. But the big guys — it would be nice to ferent…. One e-mail has been discussed and debated. have them come back. Again, I'm not sure where it's come from. I haven't ac- The north Island is trying to rebuild, trying to build tually seen this e-mail. It could be one of these urban up new avenues. One area is tourism. There's no doubt legend e-mails. that this is not going to be the be-all and end-all, but It's on a senior who is going to be paying so much for tourism is important. I was talking to a kayak operator, HST and that we are going to be using this on this side of who is saying: the House to justify the opposition to HST. Members on "Well, this is fine. We've got our various tax credits, but we've that side of the House have given a breakdown of figures got a customer looking at the cost of two kayak operations, both of why that has to be an apocryphal e-mail, about how going to the same areas of the north Island, around our beautiful no senior really would have that sort of income to pay coastline. One is an operation that is run out of the United States, that level of HST when they are paying the 7 percent on and one is operated out of B.C. The customer isn't going to make that much difference. You're still doing a camping and kayaking many more things than they were doing before — on the trip. They're going to buy the cheap one. That's going to be the haircuts, on the cups of coffee, on heating oil, if they're American one, and that hurts B.C. businesses." going camping, and so on. That's a small operator. I actually have had e-mails from seniors and would The larger operators. I have a letter here from the just like to address this issue of the seniors' cost. This is Oak Bay Marine Group, which has got two hotels in the 4148 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

north Island, April Point and Painter's Lodge. They are I raise this because this is, again, preventative health seriously worried about this tax. They say: care. It is very useful. It is all part of the benefits to people "I implore you not to go through with this. Understanding that in B.C. that are going to cost. the funds made through taxes are needed to continue growth, I have a person who runs one of the chains of gyms please do so some other way. This year was especially tough on the tour and travel market." and who is very worried about HST being applicable to This was the end of last year. fitness, saying: "Not only do we not get a fitness credit, "This market is very competitive and price point–sensitive. Tax- but those of us who choose a healthy lifestyle will be ing not only British Columbians but travellers from other prov- penalized, because fitness is now taxable provincially." inces, the United States and all over the world can only become another reason for lower occupancy in hotels, lower sales in stores, restaurants and so on. The economy needs more time to heal, and [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] people need time to regain the confidence they once had to spend their hard-earned money here." This actually does get me towards more of a discus- These are the big operators and the small operators, like sion about how we should be raising taxes, what we others I have talked to — people who run restaurants. should be raising taxes on, whether it should be these Yes, there are partisan politics. Of course, there are flat taxes and whether we are actually going to have, as always partisan politics, but a lot of restaurant owners I other members — the Minister of State for Mining — know in my constituency are not necessarily supporters earlier said…. Are we going to have the opportunity to of my political party. They would tell me they're not sup- have a debate on taxation? Is this the place to have the porters of my political party, but they will tell me that in debate on taxation? I believe that it is a debate we should the present climate, the HST is going to hurt them. It's be having across the province, and it should be a debate not fearmongering; it's not warning off people. we're having in this Legislature. There's one restaurant that particularly caters to sen- I've heard many members talk about how we have iors. They're worried about the fact that the seniors will such a low personal income tax rate. "We have such a buy their doughnuts in a store rather than come to the low tax rate, and isn't this a wonderful thing — that coffee shop and sit down with friends to have a coffee everybody's paying so little tax?" and a doughnut. Others are already laying people off be- We have also seen over the last ten years the increas- cause Campbell River and the north Island are hurting. ing fees. We've got MSP going up. We've got ferry fares It has not recovered from the recession and from what going up. We've got the cost of camping going up. We've has been happening to our forest-dependent commun- got the cost of many health care areas going up that were ities for the last ten years. not there before. So while we may have a low basic tax We've got businesses that are already worried, and rate, we are seeing much more in fees, and now we are they are not worried about the fearmongering. They're seeing another level of taxation in the flat tax of theH ST. really worried about their survival, and that means their I think there is a huge concern that with this flat tax, it's ability to carry on employing people. going to really be having a big impact on many, many Other businesses. As I say, I know that there are some consumers. who are in favour. Others are very, very concerned. We I would like to continue talking about the ways that have gyms that are worried because it's going to be the we are going to redistribute the wealth of this province increase in fees and whether people can pay the increase through a progressive tax system rather than a flat tax in fees — and other professional services. system — through a tax system that doesn't penalize in- [1820] dividuals and doesn't start asking people to be paying One of the areas we talk about is health care. One of taxes on magazines; on vitamins; on classes, whether it the areas is massage therapy. I know that many, many be yoga or a gym; or on vet care for your dogs; on taxi members got a number of e-mails and letters right at the fares; on all these things. beginning of the proposed implementation of the har- I think this should be an issue that we should be hav- monized sales tax. ing a debate upon. I think it's very important that we The registered massage therapists, who do sterling have a healthy debate on how our tax system should be work in supporting our health service — at a cost, ob- worked; on whether we should be adding levels of taxa- viously; it's a private cost — are very worried. They say: tion that consumers do pay, that are a flat tax — you "Our profession did not receive exemption, as other health care don't have the flexibility there; on how it's going to work; providers, because we are only regulated in three provinces. Fed- on how businesses are going to benefit; and on how busi- eral GST requirements state that a sector must be regulated in five provinces and territories in order to be exempt.I n fact, while nesses are going to pass any savings that they have on to we're currently only one of two health care providers that will be the consumer. affected by the HST, once the HST comes into effect, the naturo- Noting the time, I would like to reserve my position paths will be exempt, as they have recently become regulated in in this debate and adjourn the debate for the evening. five provinces. So the registered massage therapists will become the only primary health profession in British Columbia required to charge their patients this tax." C. Trevena moved adjournment of debate. Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4149

Motion approved. Maybe just by way of a quick summary…. It's my understanding from reading Hansard that the minister Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported confirmed that about $80,000 had been spent on various resolutions, was granted leave to sit again. initiatives — the Canadian food and wine affair and so on — but that that money was to be recovered from the Hon. G. Abbott moved adjournment of the House. Growing Forward program. So there would essentially be no cost associated with Motion approved. that — approximately no cost associated with that — but that the cost items that would be associated with those Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 events would come from the ministry and would be a.m. tomorrow morning. staffing support to engage in these promotional events. Then I believe the minister also said that the minister The House adjourned at 6:25 p.m. had some responsibilities as official host, and I believe that after some discussion, the minister said that the minister attended five events: two sporting events and PROCEEDINGS IN THE three medal ceremonies where the minister was the of- DOUGLAS FIR ROOM ficial government representative. Then, finally, by way of summary, the minister wasn't Committee of Supply clear but thought it perhaps would be right that it was Intergovernmental Relations that provided the tickets. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF [1440] AGRICULTURE AND LANDS If there's no contradiction on that…? I'm just go- (continued) ing through Hansard and just confirming some of the things that happened before. The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. Following from that is my first question. I'm wonder- Bloy in the chair. ing if the minister could let me know what the costs to the ministry were of staff and time and expertise with The committee met at 2:37 p.m. relation to those various hosting duties of the Olympics. On Vote 14: ministry operations, $68,494,000 (con- Hon. S. Thomson: To confirm, for the events that tinued). you're referencing — the Canadian food and wine af- The Chair: Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome fair and the other initiatives that we did specifically for to the Douglas Fir Room. We're doing the budget esti- agriculture — we had two staff that were primarily re- mates on the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands. I want sponsible for ministry involvement in there in terms of to remind everybody in the audience that there's no au- organization, along with the committee. That was for dio portion to your electronic devices and all the same about an eight-week period that those staff had a por- rules apply here as they do in the main House. tion of their time dedicated to that initiative. Travel costs were $2,600 for that time period, for Hon. S. Thomson: Just before we get started with the those events — travel costs for the ministry staff. In questions, I'd just like to introduce the staff again who addition, we had a number of staff that were seconded as are here. part of the overall government staff support forO lympic initiatives. The Chair: Continue, Minister. K. Corrigan: I appreciate that it's tough to get the Hon. S. Thomson: With me is Deputy Minister Larry specific numbers related to that right now. I'm wonder- Pedersen; and behind are Harvey Sasaki and Lindsay ing if it would be possible to get a commitment from the Kislock, assistant deputy ministers in the ministry; and minister to provide an estimate of what the actual costs Denise Bragg, our executive financial officer. I look for- would be, related to those two staff and to the travel ward to the questions. costs which have been mentioned as well as to the em- ployees who were seconded, and in addition — maybe K. Corrigan: I was going to follow up with the line of following up on that, as well — a confirmation about questions that were being asked a week and a half ago, whether or not this includes either the volunteer leave and that was about the Olympics and a comparison be- matching program or the employee loan program. I'd be tween 2010-2011 expenditures as opposed to 2009-10 interested in getting the numbers, as well, for those — in on Olympic-related costs. addition, if they're separate numbers. 4150 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

Hon. S. Thomson: Yes, we'll provide that information then I'll not ask any more questions on this matter right for you — the more specific information that you've now. asked for. I think that's the best way to handle it. Rather than give you sort of estimates, we can provide a more Hon. S. Thomson: Hopefully, I can provide the answer detailed response to you directly as a follow-up. I think but then would move on to another line of questioning that's the most appropriate way to do that. that's more specifically related to our estimates for 2011, [1445] which is the purpose of this estimates process. Just to confirm, I'm fully cooperating from our min- K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if I could get a sense of istry's perspective in terms of providing information when that could be provided. and answers to all the questions that are asked by the ministry that's responsible for providing that report. Hon. S. Thomson: We can commit to provide that As the minister said, that report will provide a full ac- within a week, if that's appropriate. counting of the business-hosting program and all costs related to that. So we're providing that information as K. Corrigan: I appreciate that. requested from our ministry, and that will come out in I wanted to follow up quickly on another matter. The the full report. minister mentioned that the minister attended five events in which the minister was the official government K. Corrigan: Well, I appreciate that. representative or host. I'm wondering if the minister Can the minister then tell me that included in the in- could confirm for me whether or not the minister was, formation that has been reported as requested — that as far as the minister is aware, the only MLA that at- information, for example, of who it is that was hosted tended those events. Or does the minister know? and the reason for hosting and what the plan was and what the intention was for having those people hosted The Chair: I just wanted to remind the member to and all the costs associated with hosting them…? make the questions relevant to Vote 14 and to bring the [1450] point forward. Is the minister telling me that that information, first of all, was requested in the reporting mechanism that Hon. S. Thomson: Just to confirm that on the official there is for hosting the Olympics and, secondly, whether hosting responsibilities I had for those events, it was a or not that information was provided by this ministry? shared responsibility. I did host it with another mem- ber of government at each of the events. As has been Hon. S. Thomson: Again, as I said, we have been canvassed in previous estimates and has been canvassed providing all the information requested. The ministry with the Minister of Economic Development, a full re- responsible…. Those estimates have been canvassed. porting of the business-hosting program is going to be The indication has been given that a full reporting will provided, and all of the details with respect to those be provided. We are providing the information re- events will be part of that reporting. quested of us. It's important to recognize that I was there, asked to be K. Corrigan: I'm absolutely happy to compare it to a representative for the provincial government, as part 2010-2011, but I do appreciate that the minister is being of the business-hosting program in my overall respon- quite forthright with the answers. If I can avoid doing sibilities as part of government. That report that you're that in every question, I will. I do appreciate the warning referencing will be provided in the fullness of time, and that it should be in some way related. as I said, we are providing the information requested of The problem that we've had and we've expressed be- our ministry to that report. It will be up to the ministers fore about waiting for the full report is that we don't responsible to provide that report. know what is going to be in that report. That's why we're going around to each of the ministries and asking min- The Chair: Member, if I could, I believe that the ques- isters or government members what exactly it is that tion has been answered, and if you'd like to move on they're doing. with a new line of questioning. I'm hopeful that that report will be full — that it will include exactly who went to what events, what the costs K. Corrigan: Well, I do have one more question on were associated with each of the ministries for their this, hon. Chair, just for clarification. It's just a final Olympic hosting responsibilities, who they hosted and clarification on this area. what the plan was, why it was that they hosted those The minister said that all the information that had events and what they expected to get from that. been requested was provided. I asked about some very If the minister can give me an assurance right now specific things that…. I was wondering whether they're that all that information is going to be in that report, involved in that, in those questions. My question is: Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4151 what specific information was requested of the minister Hon. S. Thomson: Again, I have some question about to provide for this report? the reference of these questions to the 2011 estimates of the ministry. But again, I'm not the author of the re- Hon. S. Thomson: Again, I think I've disclosed all the port. This issue has been canvassed extensively with the information that I can at this time. I've indicated that we're minister. The information has been given that the full ac- fully providing the information — what events I was asked counting will be provided. As I said, we have provided the to participate in and attend on behalf of government and information with respect to our ministry, and I expect that the responsibility that I had as part of the business-hosting the report, as the member opposite has referenced, will be program, which was to be a government representative at provided by the appropriate minister in due course. those events. I fully disclosed the ones that I did attend on behalf of government, with the ticketed events. The Chair: Member, you may not like the answer, but The costs that I incurred as far as travel and things it's been answered on a number of occasions, and the are concerned, as part of my ministerial responsibilities, questions are now becoming repetitive. I would like you are known or will be disclosed. It's all part of the report to move on to a new line of questioning, or we'll call the or all part of the information, so I don't think that I can vote. add anything further at this point to the fact of the full disclosure. As has been canvassed in previous estimates, K. Corrigan: I didn't get an answer to my last ques- the report is going to be provided as part of the govern- tion. It's one very specific question, and thenI will move ment response to the business-hosting program and the on. One question. information that's been requested. I was told about a report that had the required infor- I've been fully forthright in terms of the information mation in it. The question that I very specifically asked that I've provided. I was honoured to be able to repre- was, using this as an example: will that report include sent government at this event. This was an opportunity the names of the people who were hosted by government to showcase British Columbia to the world in terms of — and in this case hosted by this ministry — who, for ex- business opportunities and things. ample, got free tickets and what the reason was that they As I said last week, as well, or previously, it also was a got free tickets? That's a really specific example. great opportunity to be able to showcase the agriculture industry and to be able to create awareness and under- Hon. S. Thomson: Again, I think I've answered the standing of the agriculture opportunities, business question fully. Because I'm not the author of the report opportunities here in British Columbia with our indus- — we provided the information; I haven't seen the report try, the opportunity to promote the great B.C. food and — I can't answer the specific question that the member wine products that we produce. opposite is requesting. As I said, we have fully disclosed [1455] my involvement in the business-hosting program. At every opportunity that I had during that process I was asked to be a government representative at a when the eyes of the world were upon British Columbia, number of ticketed events, as I've fully disclosed. The I took that opportunity. reports for the business-hosting program will be forth- coming, and since I'm not the author of the report, I K. Corrigan: Well, I'll give you an example, then, of think that the line of questioning is — as you mentioned, a specific piece of information. It's not been clear to me hon. Chair — becoming repetitive and is not specific to whether or not it's going to be included in this report. I the 2011 estimates. think it's important because what the public, I would as- sume, wants to see and what the taxpayers, I think, are The Chair: Are there any other questions from entitled to see at the end of the Olympic process is some members? understanding of what it is that this ministry was trying to accomplish and what the government was trying to L. Popham: The budget for Agriculture has been accomplish. decreasing for years, and again this year we see an ap- I think agriculture is a very important part of our proximately 4 percent decrease in some areas and economy. So if the minister was, in fact, hosting and at- more in others. When asked about the decrease in the tending events, then I would wonder whether or not the budget, there's a tendency to explain away the cuts as reporting included information about who, for example, administrative. attended a hockey game or an Olympic event at the cost One of the items cut in the budget, I believe, is travel. of taxpayers that perhaps the minister was either there I know that the minister and staff have been attending with or was aware was given free tickets. more meetings by teleconference, and I'm just wonder- I think that's information that the people of B.C. ing how much money has been saved in this budget by would want to know. Would that information be in- attending meetings that way. cluded in the report? [1500] 4152 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

Hon. S. Thomson: The travel costs for the ministry in L. Popham: The conversationsI 've had are alluding to the estimates from the previous year to the current year the fact that there's actually a lack of presence at the na- are $991,000 down to $904,000 — a drop of $87,000. It tional level, and I'm wondering if the minister believes is true that that is administrative savings. What we are that British Columbia is being represented at the na- doing is taking more advantage of technology for con- tional level. An example of that is the minister playing ference calls and video conferencing and those kinds of an in-person role in the national agriculture planning. processes in order to save those administrative costs. Our experience to date, in the previous year, indi- Hon. S. Thomson: Yes, I think we have been effective cated that that was effective, and we in many instances in our representation. We critically assess the agenda be- managed to continue to have very meaningful input into fore we attend to determine whether there will be critical processes and things using that technology and using decisions made at those meetings that may impact our video conferencing. It's part of, as you know, the fiscal interests here in British Columbia. challenge that all ministries are facing. To have some ad- We have had, at a number of the meetings, an actual ministrative savings on travel, we're going to continue presence through either the deputy or assistant deputy to use that technology. It worked for us in the previous where they are in attendance, and I'm participating by year, and we expect that we will continue to refine it as conference call or by phone or by video. But we do look we move into the next year. very critically at the agenda to make sure that the ex- penditure of resources and time to be there is critical for L. Popham: The conversations that I've been having British Columbia. If there are critical decisions that im- with the agriculture industry are that there's a lack of pact our industry, particularly in programs like you talk Agriculture presence. The meetings that happen around about with the Growing Forward agreement, then we'll B.C. and outside of B.C. to do with agriculture…. There's be in attendance. a formal meeting, and then there are a lot of meetings If you look at our cost-sharing and what we've that happen around that meeting. Does the minister be- achieved through the Growing Forward agreement, lieve that by attending meetings in the new way it's an currently I think we've been very effective in our in- effective presence for B.C. Agriculture? volvement in that program and our ability to leverage dollars to the benefit of British Columbia through the Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question. It's Growing Forward agreement. We continue to do that. a good question. There is a balance that needs to be Every agenda is assessed very carefully before a decision achieved in terms of face-to-face participation and par- is made as to how we participate in those meetings. ticipation using the technology of video conferencing and teleconferencing, and we're trying to manage that L. Popham: It does seem like it's a struggle right now balance. with the budget the way it is and having to weigh out the I think, and my experience to date has been, that importance of each agricultural meeting to tell you when we have fully participated whichever way we do it. We you should have a presence there. For me it's a warning fully participated in the formal agendas. Chairs of those that the budget is getting too low, because I think that meetings have gone out of their way to make sure that your presence should be everywhere and that there's a our participation is recognized. Our participation is need for British Columbia to be represented. asked for. Does the minister believe that there's enough money We are not the only province that is participating in this budget to run the Ministry of Agriculture in that way. A number of the meetings have been full effectively? teleconferences — for example, federal, provincial and territorial meetings that ministers had been at by con- Hon. S. Thomson: As you know, the province is fa- ference call where all ministers are participating by cing a $1.75 billion deficit. This is a constrained budget. conference call. All ministries are required to tighten their belt to work We are working the balance. But it's also important…. within the current fiscal framework that we have within We've developed very strong relationships with my the province. fellow ministers, particularly in western Canada, and We've worked very, very hard to ensure that we main- through the FPT process, we've developed the relation- tain the critical programs that are so important and ships to the point where I can contact them at any time — what we've heard from industry — critical to the cur- to follow up on items or issues. rent agriculture industry. That includes the business risk It is a balance. We are working to make sure that we management programs; the core programs of produc- can maintain the funding for the core critical program tion insurance, sometimes known as crop insurance; services of the ministry, and this is part of that — find- the business risk management programs of AgriStability ing those administrative savings that help us do that. and AgriInvest. [1505] [1510] Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4153

We've maintained the critical nature of our lab in Within our current budget, I think we're delivering Abbotsford to deal with animal and plant health. We've those programs that are critical to the industry, and we ensured that we've got the resources to continue to continue to do that in partnership and in regular consul- fully leverage the participation in the Growing Forward tation with the industry leadership. agreement of the federal government. which provides that 40-60 cost share between the provincial and fed- K. Corrigan: I had a few more questions about the eral government for core programs, both through the Olympics, but they are different questions. Perhaps we business risk management side of things and the non– can save a little time on this one, because when I was business risk management programs of environmental asking questions about costs for this ministry related farm planning, business planning, innovation, food to the Olympics, I didn't use the word "Paralympics." safety — all of those kinds of programs. Unfortunately, I found in another ministry that if I didn't We've been very successful in ensuring that we've specify that I was including the Paralympics, I was told maintained the budget and, despite the fiscal challenges, that that information was not what I had requested. maintained the core budget to be able to ensure that we [1515] have that core of critical programs that the industry has I guess my next question is: will the minister commit told us is essential to maintain. to providing all of the information which has previously been promised, including information about the num- L. Popham: I appreciate your answer, but the in- ber of tickets, the employee loan program, the cost of teresting thing about that answer is that I think we're those individuals that were assigned to the Olympics changing the definition of what core services are to volunteer leave matching program — that informa- meet the dropping budget. Core services used to include tion…? Will the minister commit to providing that as things like marketing — the Buy B.C. program — and well for the Paralympics if there were costs associated? extension services, which are critical to agriculture in British Columbia. Hon. S. Thomson: Yes. I'm just wondering: how much lower can the budget decrease before the Ministry of Agriculture becomes in- K. Corrigan: That has to be the shortest answer ever effective at aiding agriculture in British Columbia? in this House. I appreciate that. I also wanted to ask the minister whether it's the Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question. I minister's understanding that any extra costs that we're think it's a very good question. What we've done is work in partnership with the industry to ensure that the discussing — the cost of tickets, the cost of hosting, the critical programs that the industry has told us are very, cost of employees and so on — are part of the $765 mil- very important for their continued viability and success lion Olympic budget. are the programs that we've maintained as the priority programs. As I said, we're working within a constrained Hon. S. Thomson: What I'd agreed to do was to pro- fiscal environment. vide the follow-up, as per the request to provide the We still continue to provide extension services. They are ministry-specific information as far as the specific min- targeted in specific areas around environment, food safety istry expenditures around the Olympics and Paralympics, — areas that are critical right now in terms of meeting con- and we've agreed to do that within a week. sumer demands and the marketplace. We also work very The follow-up question — that is not the subject of closely in partnership with the industry in terms of as- these estimates. That has been canvassed in other esti- sisting them in accessing other resources to do some of mates, and that will be provided in the report that we the things they need to do within the industry. have referenced in previous questions on this subject. We work in those kinds of partnerships, and we've been successful — I think very successful — in ensuring The Chair: Member, if I…. The questions have to that we can continue to maintain our key partnership come back to this vote. with the federal government in the delivery of the Growing Forward programs. K. Corrigan: Yes. It's a five-year agreement. We're partway through that agreement, and the process is now underway to start to The Chair: So if I can remind you of that. And you do the strategic review of that current agreement leading have canvassed the Olympics quite extensively. to, I hope, a new agreement with the federal govern- ment following the current five-year agreement. That's K. Corrigan: I have. an evolving program that continues to shift in terms of priorities as in partnership with the industry, there's a The Chair: You may not like all the answers, but full consultation process. you've been receiving answers. 4154 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

K. Corrigan: Thank you, hon. Chair. Well, I will ex- culture; the Savour Canada event, organized by the plain why I believe that these questions relate very closely federal government in partnership along with the fed- to the vote. This government has said repeatedly that the eral minister and others there; and the work with the Olympics are partially successful because of the ability to CTV breakfast event focusing on the agricultural in- leverage whatever benefit we got from them, and the gov- dustry and being able to feed breakfast and promote ernment has specifically hired PricewaterhouseCoopers the industry to 2,000 people in Robson Square in part- and has engaged OGI, the Olympic Games Impact study, nership with the industry and a number of agricultural to look at the costs and benefits of the games before, dur- organizations. ing and after the games. As I've said, we've committed to agree to provide the The point of my questions is to find out on behalf of full numbers as far as the ministry expenditures are con- taxpayers whether or not the money that was spent by cerned, and the other information will come out in the this government before, during and after the games is report that we've referenced a number of times already a good use of taxpayers' money. We can't possibly de- in these estimates. termine whether or not this is an investment which is a good one, or let the taxpayers decide whether it's a good The Chair: Member, if I can remind you that it ap- investment of money, unless we know what the costs re- pears that the questions are becoming repetitive, and an lated to the games were — either in the $765 million or answer has been given, which you may not agree with. I not — before, during and after the games. would suggest that you now move on with a new line of The government has made a great point of saying questioning. that we are using this event to springboard onto greater things. The only way we can find out whether or not that K. Corrigan: I did have one more question that's re- has, in fact, happened is to look at what the actual costs lated to this that I haven't had answered yet, just because were. That's why I'm asking these questions. it's a little hard to tie the minister down. So I will just ask I think that it does very closely relate to what is going one more to make sure I haven't left anything. to be happening in the next few years in each of these I would like to know that if there are any other costs ministries that are supposed to be attracting business. related to the Olympics, the minister will provide that For example, as the minister has said, he proudly used information to me — if it's something that I haven't those events as an opportunity to promote agriculture thought to ask about yet. in British Columbia. I will ask one more question to the [1525] minister, just sort of tying it all up. [1520] Hon. S. Thomson: As I've said, I've committed to I appreciate the commitments that the minister has have the staff provide the disclosure of the costs that made, with the notable exception that the minister ap- were specific to the ministry. It's a little bit hard to be parently is refusing to answer or cannot — refusing to a mind reader in terms of what you might be thinking answer, because I asked very specifically about who it about that I might not disclose or something like that in was that got Olympic tickets, not necessarily the minis- this process. I've agreed to fully disclose it. I'm not aware ter but other people as well. of anything that won't be covered in the commitment Actually, I do want to ask one more question about that I've provided. that. I assume that when the minister says that there were five events, the minister is saying that those are K. Corrigan: This truly is my final question. I just the only events that the minister attended with taxpay- finally wanted to address…. It's not really a question. I ers' dollars. In other words, there weren't other Olympic know that the minister said he had not refused to an- tickets that the minister received that weren't part of his swer a question, and that is technically correct in that the official hosting that were still paid for by the taxpayers. minister answered the question. But the minister didn't provide the information that I had been requesting, which Hon. S. Thomson: Again, I don't think that I've re- was very simple. Who else got free tickets? Who was be- fused to answer any questions. I've fully disclosed. I've ing hosted at these events that the minister went to? advised of the events that I attended, ticketed events that It doesn't sound to me like that information is going I've attended on behalf of government. That's been fully to be in the report, or there's certainly no confirmation disclosed as part of the business-hosted program. that the information is in the report. So I stand, finally, We did have a number of events that were specific for and do say that I don't know why the taxpayers shouldn't the agricultural industry, and we've talked about that know that information — who was being hosted. It previously in the estimates. Initially, the Canadian food sounds to me like the minister is saying that that infor- and wine affair, the event featuring the First Nations mation is not going to be provided in the report, and I Agricultural Association and the work that's been done think the taxpayers should be able to know who got tick- in the aboriginal community with development of agri- ets from this government to go to the Olympics. Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4155

Hon. S. Thomson: I'll stand again and say that we will confirmation. Is the Ministry of Agriculture following fully disclose the costs that have been incurred by this the B.C. agriculture plan right now? ministry in our initiatives with respect to the Olympics and the balance of the information that the member op- Hon. S. Thomson: The short answer to that ques- posite is asking me, specifically. We've referenced the tion is yes. It still guides the direction and guides the fact that it has been canvassed in previous estimates and work that our ministry does. As the member oppos- that the report on the business hosting program is going ite indicated in her opening comments on this area of to be provided. questioning, she also believes that much of the plan is valid and that it's a good plan. It is continuing to guide L. Popham: I'm going to be changing gears and talk- our work, but as I said, we're continuing to address the ing about the agriculture plan that we have for this recommendations in the context of the fiscal environ- province and how it fits into this vote. ment that we currently operate in. The ministry's agriculture plan is about five years old We're continuing to work on many of those recom- now, and I've been going through it strategy by strat- mendations. We have addressed and moved forward on egy. There are a lot of very good parts of this plan, and a very significant number of them. There are some that I think the focus and vision was on the domestic mar- remain part of the plan that I, as minister, would still ket and on our local markets here in British Columbia. I like to continue to follow through on as resources be- think the focus and vision of the ministry has changed come available. over the last little while, and to me it seems like we're not following this plan. It might be time for a review, a new L. Popham: I understand the budget constraints and agriculture plan to reflect what the ministry is doing. having to maybe alter the plan a little bit, but I think this Is there enough money in this budget or has any plan is actually different now. I think there's a different money been put aside in this budget to review and redo tone to what's happening with agriculture in B.C. the agriculture plan for B.C.? I think what I should do, that would help me under- stand how you're following it, is go through each strategy Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the reference to the and ask you how much money is being spent in the plan. Just to correct the record, the plan was released in budget in this vote per strategy. It's a strategy that this 2008, so the plan is two years old. I appreciate the member government came up with, so I would assume that that opposite's comments around, you know, many very good shouldn't be too hard to figure out. aspects of the plan in terms of the work that went into the The first strategy is "promotion ofB .C. agriculture and plan in partnership with the industry and the process. food products at the provincial and local levels." The first We're continuing to work with that plan. We're con- note is to contribute $1 million per year to promote lo- tinuing to address the recommendations in that plan cal agriculture products and develop a B.C. brand. This — but within the context, as was indicated previously, of brings me to the food miles program, which I know was the fiscal environment and the constrained resources shut down, but it was replacing the Buy B.C. program. that we have to address some of those. So the development of a new B.C. branding program [1530] seems odd, and we could actually just fall back onto the That doesn't mean that we're not continuing to focus one that was already established. on those recommendations. We're continuing to work I'm looking at the agency responsible for this, and the through them, to address them and move forward on Minister of Agriculture and Lands is responsible for this them as resources may and will become available to fol- strategy. I'm just wondering what part of the budget is low up on those. But we're not specifically at this point being spent on that strategy. considering a process to redo the plan. [1535] From my perspective and my view, the elements of the plan are still valid. We will continue to work with the Hon. S. Thomson: The member opposite has raised industry in working through the elements of the plan as the question around the provincial branding program resources will allow us. and the initiatives around the Buy B.C. program pre- viously. She's also heard my comments publicly, and I L. Popham: Thank you for the correction. I under- know she's probably aware of my comments at producer stand it was released in 2008, but the birth of the plan meetings as I'm out meeting with the farm organizations was 2005. That's when, I believe, six MLAs formed a and groups around the provinces as part of my respon- committee and went around the province consulting sibility as minister. with stakeholders, the public. It was a very extensive In terms of the specific reference to this part of the process with a lot of cost to it. plan, this is one of the ones where the current fiscal re- From listening to the minister's answer, it seems to sources have resulted in the fact that we don't have the me that he believes it is being followed, but I just want specific dollars that are referenced in the plan to support 4156 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

the provincial branding program. That does not mean, continue to try to find that investment as the resources however, that it doesn't remain a priority for me as re- become available. sources become available. It also does not mean that we Again, I just want to confirm and reiterate that despite are not focusing work in this area. the fact that we don't have that specific line item within We continue to work with both the B.C. Agriculture our ministry in the 2011 estimates, we continue to work Council and the B.C. Food Processors Association. They in partnership with the industry using resources and hold the sublicence now for the Buy B.C. program. They every opportunity to help promote local food produc- have requested of us to extend that sublicence agreement, tion and the Buy B.C. principles in cooperation with the which we're going to do. I think it expires in September. Agriculture Council. We will work with them to extend the term of the subli- I know that their recommendation to the standing cence agreement they have so that they continue to work committee was to reinstate. They were disappointed with it. that the financing or the investment wasn't there.A s I've We are working with them, with some resources that indicated, it still remains a priority of mine to find the they have to be able to devote to branding local food resources and continue to assist the industry to do that. promotion. We'll work with them. We've committed to In the meantime we're going to continue to work very provide staff support and resources to them. closely with them, using resources that they have, using We have other initiatives that we provided. For ex- the sublicence agreement that they have, to help to build ample, we provided money to support some adjustment or re-establish some components of that program. within the B.C. hog industry. For example, we have one We also, as I said, continue to work on specific -in of the major packers, Johnston Packers, now going out itiatives that assist that overall principle — so things in with a specific program with respect toB .C. pork. That's partnership with organizations like the Agriculture in part of the resources that were provided as part of tran- the Classroom Foundation and other groups; the B.C. sition adjustment funding to the B.C. Hog Marketing Hog Marketing Commission, which I just referenced. Commission through the Investment Agriculture B.C. Tree Fruits, for example, as a marketing agency, Foundation. has just indicated that they're moving into a Buy B.C. So we continue to use the resources that we have as ef- local tree fruit promotion program on their own. We'll fectively as we can in promoting local food production continue to help work with them as they can, as part of and the Buy British Columbia principle, and we'll con- dealing with some of the challenges facing the tree fruit tinue to do that. It still remains a priority for me, for this industry. overall program, as a future program when resources So while we don't have that specific line item, we are become available. committed to continue to work with industry in those partnerships that I had talked about. L. Popham: It's interesting that you bring up the B.C. Ag Council as sort of housing the Buy B.C. program. L. Popham: I guess it's a technicality that the Buy B.C. In September the Standing Committee on Finance and program wasn't cut, but the funding was cut for it. It's Government Services…. A report was submitted by the now housed with a group that you…. If you want to use B.C. Ag Council, and they expressed their disappoint- the Buy B.C. logo, you have to license it and pay a mem- ment that the minister wasn't funding that program. I bership fee. That's great. Maybe that's the way it should think the Buy B.C. program was actually terminated be- work. I don't know. I personally believe that the govern- fore the economic downturn, and I'm wondering if the ment should be funding it. minister could tell me why it was cut. But a program like that doesn't work unless everybody is using it. If it's just some members signing up and get- Hon. S. Thomson: Just to confirm, the program was ting licensing, I don't think that's an effective way to use not terminated, as the member opposite references. At it. I don't think it's fair for the Ministry of Agriculture to that point — and this was in 2001 — the government be claiming that it's still alive and well. It's not. funding for the program was not continued. It was felt I think you can go to almost every part of the agri- at that time that the program had matured to the point culture sector, and they will be telling you that it's…. that it could be carried on and sustained by industry, in At least, they're telling me that's what they want and partnership with primary producers and processors and that that's going to help the industry. So it has been cut the retail value chain. That was the decision then. from this ministry. It's alive and well in a closet at the [1540] Agriculture Council. Through the agriculture plan process, we heard the The next part of this strategy was to fund, with $1 message from the industry that continued investment million per year, the food miles project. I understand in that program was important to the industry. It was that's cut. I remember the day it was. The reason that part of the agriculture plan. As I said in my answer to this project became part of the strategy was to reduce the previous question, it remains a priority for me to the greenhouse gas emissions associated with food pur- Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4157

chases. How much money in this budget is being spent L. Popham: Another action that's listed under strategy to help reduce greenhouse gases and food purchases in 1 is the expansion and delivery of the Eat B.C. program. B.C.? I'm just wondering if the minister could give us an up- [1545] date on that. [1550] Hon. S. Thomson: First of all, before I answer the specific question, I just want to comment that the mem- Hon. S. Thomson: TheE at B.C. program is a program ber opposite made the claim, I think, or appeared to that's delivered by the B.C. Restaurant and Foodservices indicate that I was indicating that the Buy B.C. program Association. The ministry provided initial funding to get is alive and well. I think it's quite fair to say that, as she that initiative underway. It started out with a week fo- indicated, it's struggling. It's not at the level that would cused on B.C. food products in the restaurant and food be envisioned under the part of the agricultural plan services industry. where we talked about funding and a provincial brand- I know that initiative has expanded since the initial ing initiative. That's why I've said it's still a priority of investment by the ministry. They have got a successful mine, as the resources become available, to be able to partnership, and they've expanded it to a month-long address that part of the agricultural plan. initiative. I'm not sure of their plans for the coming year, We're working under a very fiscally constrained en- but they have support provided by participants in the vironment, but it's still my priority as minister to want program, by sponsors, by other partners that they have. to continue to find those resources, and we are continu- It's an initiative that is led by the Restaurant and ing to work with the council with the licence that they Foodservices Association, and we can get you a briefing have. They have come to us and said that they would like on it, if you would like, in terms of their specific plans to engage. They would like some more staff support to for 2010. I'm not up to date currently on all their specific be able to take the existing licence that they've had and initiatives that they have in the planning stages for the use it more effectively than they have in the past. They coming year. want to re-engage on that, and they have some resources L. Popham: Yep, that would be fantastic. I'd love to available that can be put towards that effort, so we're go- have that briefing note. ing to continue to work with them. So that's the end of the strategies and actions that are I know that the program has a user licence fee. I think under strategy 1. I would still like to know how much that is appropriate to a degree if you're moving the pro- money from this budget has been spent on strategy 1 of gram forward, because it's important that people who the agriculture plan. are participating in those programs also have some in- vestment in the program as well. The user fees were not Hon. S. Thomson: We'll provide you with that at an onerous level for participation, but when you're specific number. We don't have it at hand here because it paying user fees you also have to see value in the pro- involves some breakout of estimate of staff time and sup- gram and things as well. So we have to work on those port for those areas of activity. There's not a specific line areas in the program. item for that in the '10-11 budget estimates, but we can Just with respect to the food miles program, again, provide you with a level of ministry investment through that was one that, because of the fiscal constraints, was doing that calculation, and we'll commit to provide that not specifically funded as we had to adjust to that fiscal to you as a follow-up. reality we're facing. But we do continue to work with the industry on a number of initiatives that help reduce the L. Popham: Before I move on to strategy 2, I would carbon footprint of the industry. just like to know if the minister feels that the Ministry So we're working through our climate action initiative. of Agriculture has fulfilled its responsibility with strat- Just as a couple of specific examples, we have support egy 1. that's provided under the Growing Forward, under the beneficial management program, to convert from diesel Hon. S. Thomson: Yeah, I think I've been quite clear to electric for farm equipment. We are working on in- in the questioning around this item and on the specifics itiatives that are looking at anaerobic digestion on farms around the Buy B.C. program that it is work in progress, to deal with waste and providing alternate energy and that we're continuing to work with the industry, that it reducing the carbon footprint through that means. is a priority for me to continue to look for resources that So through that initiative and with support from could help move that part of the strategy forward. Growing Forward, we're continuing to focus on a num- I think we are making good progress. I think we're ber of areas that help reduce the carbon footprint of the working well with industry on it, but it's also clear that industry and reduce greenhouse gas emissions within more can be done in that area. We're committed to con- the industry. tinue to do that as resources become available and as we 4158 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

continue to address the current fiscal challenges of the the public and the work that agriculture does. Fairs do a province. lot of great work in the communities, but we are not in a financial position to be able to provide them the annual L. Popham: I'm going to move to strategy 2, which grant that we have historically in a number of years. is to "implement initiatives to strengthen community As I said, they've just gone through a strategic review. food systems." The first action is to "support direct farm There is a report coming forward, and I am going to sit sales through Farmers Markets Directory — brochure — down with the leadership of the B.C. association and re- farmers' markets newsletters and farm-fresh guides in view that report for them as we look to opportunities four regions." I'm just wondering if the ministry is com- going forward. mitted to this action. [1555] B. Simpson: First off, just an opening comment. I want to express my appreciation to the minister for rec- Hon. S. Thomson: Thanks for the question. Moving ognizing some of the work that my office did on that on to the second strategy, we continue to work very mobile poultry abattoir. I know the minister was up in closely with the association of farmers' markets. We pro- the Quesnel area and saw what good work was done up vided them with initial funding of $20,000 in 2006-2007 there. I appreciate the recognition for the work our of- — to the association — to help them build capacity. This fice did to try and facilitate it and make that happen. is work that we're hoping they continue to do to build Now what I'd like to do is a little bit around specific their self-sustaining capacity. budget figures. The budget speech indicated that all They've recently been provided a grant through the natural resource ministries were going to have $320 Investment Agriculture Foundation where they've million taken from them and refocused. We are be- undertaken a strategic review of the work of the asso- ginning to flesh out some of the implications of that in ciation, and that report has been prepared. I've been some of the other ministries. What is the direct implica- advised that they're going to provide that report to us tion to Agriculture and Lands? How much of that does and that we are going to be sitting down and meet- Agriculture and Lands have to absorb? ing with the leadership and the association of farmers' markets to review that strategic planning report, which Hon. S. Thomson: In specific response to that, the they had the funding assistance from the Investment impact of that decision on the Ministry of Agriculture is Agriculture Foundation to undertake. $19 million over three years. It is $5 million in '10-11, $7 million in '11-12 and $7 million in '12-13. L. Popham: I think one of the items that was listed in the long version of the report was supporting agri- B. Simpson: With the $5 million for this year that cultural fairs. I'm just wondering if there is any money we'll start with, what is the Agriculture Ministry's way in the budget this year to fund the agricultural fairs as of taking that $5 million back? Will it be in the form they have been over the many years that they've been of FTE reductions, program reductions? Where is that in existence. They did lose their funding last year, and money coming from? I'm wondering if the ministry is going to be giving them funding for this year. [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.]

Hon. S. Thomson: In Budget '10-11 there is not any Hon. S. Thomson: In terms of the $5 million in '10- specific funding in our budget for fairs and exhibitions. 11, it is in targeted program reductions. It is $2½ million We continue, on the discretionary grants side of things, in business risk management and $2½ million in the to be constrained, dealing with the current fiscal chal- Crown contaminated sites remediation program. There lenges. There is not a specific expenditure or grant for are no FTE impacts. fairs and exhibitions in the '10-11 budget. We do, how- ever, continue to provide staff support to the association. B. Simpson: Are there plans already in place for the We continue to work closely with them. successive years? [1600] [1605] It's also important to note that fairs are an eligible organization or an eligible entity to apply under the Hon. S. Thomson: The current plans are that the two gaming grant program, and I know a number of fairs are reductions that I just referenced in the target programs doing that to seek support for their initiatives around would continue through into the next two budget years the province, the individual fairs. to make up the five out of the seven in what will be '11- Again, this is one that I personally think is…. Fairs 12 and '12-13. The additional amount primarily will and exhibitions do great work around the province. It's a result from the transfer of aquaculture management to very important connection between the community and the federal government as part of the process that we're Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4159

currently in the transition of — that regulatory author- You know that there are a number of items that are ity that will primarily deal with the additional amounts zero-rated. Bulk feeds and major expenditures that were in the out-years. zero-rated as part of the GST system remain zero-rated under the harmonized system and will not have HST. B. Simpson: With that in mind, the $5 million rela- For the ones that have HST on them, the farmer will be tive to what Ministry of Forests and others are having to eligible to claim the full input tax credit on the harmon- deal with seems to be a small amount. But the minister ized sales tax cost just as he does currently under the had, coming into the budget cycle, a fairly substantive GST input tax credit system, where they can claim the task force report in front of him — the Ranching Task input tax credits. Now they get to claim it on the full Force — that had large dollars associated with it. range of their farm inputs, and that's a very significant I represent one of the largest areas for ranching, and benefit to the industry. Kamloops is also in my bailiwick. I'd like to understand [1610] what the implications are for the budget constraint on the recommendations of the task force, so I want to walk B. Simpson: That's the stated promise, but what we're the minister through the task force recommendations getting in terms of feedback from the community is: and commitments. where do they go to find that information out? As this First off, the announced government commitments — government points out, HST is a federal initiative, and this is straight from the task force document on page when you talk to some of the federal folks, they're still 14 — indicate that the harmonized sales tax implication trying to figure it out. Where can we direct farmers and for ranchers, as it's understood at the time, would be the ranchers who have questions? same as GST. I just came from a meeting this weekend There are questions about ceiling. There are questions where my ranching community still doesn't understand about how much sales they have to generate in order to what the implications of HST are. They're hoping to at- be eligible. There are all sorts of questions out there. The tend a federal discussion on that, but those who attended minister seems to understand what's going on. How can one in Prince George came away scratching their heads, we help ranchers and farmers understand it? What can wondering what the implications are for them. we point them to that has either a Q and A or a clear ex- Could the minister explain? Will the HST be applied planation of what is going to happen come July 1? to farmers and ranchers like the GST rebate? Would it As the minister must know, most of these operations be that simple, that straightforward? That's what the fly by the seat of their pants. If they can afford an ac- indication was from the task force. countant, then they get an accountant going. For a lot of them it's the wife or a daughter or somebody that does Hon. S. Thomson: The harmonized sales tax is a the books, and this is a major shift for them. Where can very significant benefit to the agriculture sector —to they go to get clean, clear explanations of what happens the primary agriculture sector and to both the small- July 1 for them? and larger-scale food-processing sectors. The estimates are overall a $16 million to $18 million benefit on the Hon. S. Thomson: The information. We are working primary agriculture side and something equivalent, al- with associations and farm organizations to get those though the estimates are not firm on that, in terms of questions out. We would welcome the contact from the benefit to the food-processing and small-scale pro- those organizations or individuals directly through the cessing sector — but to the primary agriculture sector, ministry offices. We will make sure that they get the an- the ranchers that you've indicated you represent, a very swers they require. I expect that over the next time, as significant benefit. the full implementation comes in on harmonized sales It's quite simple in terms of the way it works. Ranchers tax, that information will be provided to them. are quite familiar with it. Perhaps there needs to be For most producers…. It was quite interesting. I was more direct explanation to those. We've talked to the at the annual meeting of the B.C. Agriculture Council, association and things, and they're putting together in- where they talked about the fact that this was one of the formation to go out to their members, but it works very single biggest financial benefits that we could provide similarly. through the harmonized sales tax process. The com- Previously the industry had a patchwork of PST exemp- ment was: when before have we had a $16 million to $18 tions on the farm input side — some farm input items million lift for the agriculture industry? exempt, some not — and came with annual requests for That's what the harmonized sales tax does for the agri- additions to the PST exemption list. Sometimes those culture industry. It is a direct benefit to them. We do were dealt with; sometimes they weren't. Under our har- need to make sure that producers understand that and monized approach, all farm input items that the primary know how to work with the system. producer uses will have HST on them, other than cur- In one sense it's quite simple in terms of their existing rently zero-rated items that are zero-rated for GST. system, if they're familiar with that now in terms of 4160 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

claiming the GST input tax credits. They'll be able to ernment. If those commitments are not going to carry claim the input tax credits on the full range of farm in- forward, then it doesn't give a lot of hope that the rest of puts that previously weren't exempt from PST. This now the recommendations of the task force are going to carry means that as new technology comes into the industry, forward as well. as new investment is made in the industry, they'll be I would like a more specific answer, and the ministry able to get that full input tax credit on those farm inputs staff should be able to give the minister the answer as yes without having to come and ask for things to be added or no. Does the $10 million carry forward for the next to the list as new technology comes in. five years or not? It was announced. It was ironclad. It Traditionally, there would be many items that the in- was announced by the Premier during the election, in dustry has felt should be on the list as exempt for farm fact, before the task force even came into existence. inputs, which weren't added to the list. Now those are Let me read the minister, just by way of reminding all there and are all included in the input tax credit him why there's a lot of interest around this…. This is process. straight from the minister's own report, tabled with him. I see that the member that was responsible for B. Simpson: Again, it seems clear that the minis- this, the parliamentary secretary, is engaging. "The fu- ter understands it. Let's hope that we can provide that ture of the cattle sector in B.C. is uncertain following a understanding to some of these folks. six-year period of unprecedented events that have ad- What doesn't help, though, is something the Finance versely impacted the industry and left it weakened and Minister indicated, which is that all of the benefits that stretched in its capacity to adapt to changing economic they're going to accrue from this should be passed on circumstances." as reduction in pricing. When you've got entities and This is not new. It's been on the go for six years. It's sectors that are marginal, what they'll be looking at is something that the government has failed to address. If maybe a little bit of ability to actually stay afloat. I think you compound that by mountain pine beetle implica- the Finance Minister needs to be cautioned that HST tions, the market implications, etc…. will be a way for them to reduce their prices to the mar- So let's deal with the things that were already an- ket when they're already losing money. Let's hope they nounced. It was preannounced by the Premier, before get that clarification. the task force — $10 million for five years explicitly to Moving on to the task force recommendations, an al- address rail fencing and highway fencing. Yes or no — is ready announced commitment, according to the task that continuing? force, was highway and rail corridor fencing — $10 mil- [1620] lion over the next five years. Will that continue? Does that program continue to exist for the next five years at Hon. S. Thomson: It is a cross-ministry response to $10 million? the report, as I've referenced earlier. The funding for [1615] this specific recommendation comes under the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure's estimates, not Hon. S. Thomson: I think what's important to recog- within the ministry, but my understanding is that the nize here is that we've had a comprehensive report. A cattlemen are continuing to work with the Ministry of wide range of recommendations in that report focused Transportation on that announcement, that the expecta- on regulatory changes that will benefit the industry. tion is that the funding will be provided. We're currently working across ministries and across You should know, and there is a reference to it in the government on a comprehensive response to the report. report, that the cattlemen have asked that that commit- We will be providing that to the cattlemen in the near ment be deferred and moved forward into 2012, because future. they're currently administering another fencing project. All of the recommendations that are in there will be In terms of the capacity to manage that program they've addressed as part of that comprehensive response. In asked that that be moved into 2012 and are continu- terms of dealing with each individual specific recom- ing to work with the Ministry of Transportation and mendation here, I think what I can say is that there will Infrastructure on their request. The overall response be a comprehensive response to the full report, and that to this will be part of the comprehensive response that will be provided to the cattlemen in the near future. we provide to the Ranching Task Force, as I indicated earlier. B. Simpson: Well, this is estimates debate. Estimates debate is a public accountability mechanism for us to B. Simpson: What date can we expect a comprehen- ask those questions. sive response? I understand that the minister might be looking at this, but what I'm reading are already announced Hon. S. Thomson: I don't have a specific date. We're pre–Ranching Task Force announcements by the gov- currently working with the Cattlemen's Association. The Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4161

co-chairs of the Ranching Task Force are looking for an the administration of that program to British Columbia, opportunity to bring the task force back together to look which we've successfully achieved in having direct prov- through the response and the recommendations. We'll incial administration of that program where it was be providing an update at that time. My expectation is previously administered out of Winnipeg. that following that, we will be providing a full response In addition to our confidence that we can fully deliver to the cattlemen, for sure, and as you know, the cattle- the obligations under that program within the line item men have their annual meeting in Williams Lake at the in the budget, we are also confident that moving it here end of May. is going to improve the timeliness, the response and the For sure, within that time frame we need to provide producers' experience with that program. them that comprehensive response. As I said, we're work- ing across a number of ministries and a number of parts B. Simpson: I get the transfer over and the stream- of government in order to fully respond. I have asked lining, and that is something that the industry asked the task force to meet again to look at the response as it's for. But the industry has also asked, and it's right in starting to be developed, and we will be making a full, the report, for a change to the time period with which comprehensive response to it as quickly as we can. they show that they're having difficulty. There's an- ex pectation within the industry that it would actually be B. Simpson: I have to get permission from the boss changed in a way that would be more uptake because here to keep going. So again, you know, I take the min- more people would be able to apply. ister's words at fair value. There are other ministries The minister is saying that based on normative pro- involved in this. There's no point in me asking about the jections, you can absorb the $2.5 million. I think the range fencing because that's going to get punted to an- ranching community throughout the province will tell other ministry, etc. But the agriculture umbrella parks you that there are a lot more people in a lot more trouble the leadership at the minister's desk to make sure that who were hoping that some of the changes that would these other ministries actually deliver. Just because the occur would allow more people to become eligible for line item exists with Transportation…. The reason for funds, and ergo, more money would be required. that is crystal-clear, because if Transportation can walk How does the minister respond to that? It's actually in away from it, they will. the task force report that there was an expectation that We've raised the issue in the House before the minister some of the criteria would be changed and that it would was elected about dead cows on the B.C. Rail right-of- potentially make more people eligible for support under way. And the Ministry of Transportation — we couldn't the risk management program. How does that reconcile get them to move on that issue. So leadership from the with the minister saying that based on uptake, you think Agriculture Minister and the Agriculture Minister's of- you can cut the program $2.5 million? fice is critical. [1630] So maybe the minister can then tell me about one that should be in his ministry, and that is the AgriStability Hon. S. Thomson: Just so that the member opposite program — again, a business risk management program fully understands, the Agri-Stability program, the busi- that is being brought over from the federal government. ness risk management programs, are federal-provincial Going back to the budget cuts, is that the program that programs that are across the country with all provinces we'll see the $2.5 million taken from as a result of this as signatories across all sectors. In order to change the year's $5 million? So that's going to take a hit this year parameters of the program it requires a formula with a because of the $5 million budget cut? Am I to under- significant level of other provinces all agreeing to those stand that correctly, or was the minister talking about changes, so we can't make changes to the parameters of another risk-management program that will take a hit? the program unilaterally here within British Columbia. [1625] We continue to work. We have a business risk manage- ment advisory committee with industry representation Hon. S. Thomson: The reference to the AgriStability from all sectors, including the Cattlemen's Association program is the reference where I indicated that the as part of that advisory committee, who continue to look terms of the targeted program reduction did occur, but for adjustments and changes within the program. we have done estimates and forecasts in terms of the up- We continue to work at the national level in trying to take of that program and the demands in that program, get some of those parameters changed as the program and we're confident that we can fully meet our obliga- goes forward. We're into a process now of an overall tions in that program within the budget that we have strategic review of the business risk management pro- currently in the '10-11 estimates for that program. grams nationally, and there's going to be a consultation One of the other key things that we've achieved — process with industry to do that across the country. So also, one that the industry was very strongly advocating under the terms of the existing program and the param- and working for over a number of years — was to bring eters of the existing program, we're confident that we 4162 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

have the budget capacity to fully meet our obligations to whether the minister and his department were con- under the program. sidering new regulations for greenhouse lights and the If program parameters change significantly, then we shading of greenhouses. He then, at that time, suggested would need to seek the authority for those changes and that he would review the issue with his department, and for the additional capacity that may be required if the I would like again to raise the matter with the minister. program parameters change significantly. The lights have a huge social, health and environ- mental impact on the community. The environmental B. Simpson: Again, because of constraints and impacts are far greater than just light pollution, because other people wanting to get up, I'll move on. But we live in a migratory bird flyway, so there are impacts our Agriculture critic and myself will be at the B.C. on the waterfowl and on the raptors. I wonder if the Cattlemen's Association. I guess we'll look forward to minister has approached his department and received a what transpires between now and then, and we'll have a thorough briefing on the issue as yet. bit more to say about that. Let me just close off with some questions around the Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question. task force report, because unfortunately…. It's not just Following when the issue was raised in estimates last fall, this government, but all governments have a tendency I did review it with staff. I did have staff contact Delta to go out and study something, get a report and let it municipality around this issue. collect dust. It drives everybody in these sectors nuts, As you know, the industry has a standard dealing with because they participate in good faith only to have all of a code of practice and a standard dealing with lights in the good-faith inputs disappear. greenhouses. The local government and municipality With respect to this, there is a parliamentary secretary advised us that they felt that that standard was accept- for this. My understanding is that the task force hasn't able and was being worked with. We did consider the met since November. What's the role and the function potential of a ministry standard, but given the fact that of the parliamentary secretary position to ensure that the local government felt that the industry standard that this report actually has legs, actually gets delivered on the industry had developed and works with met their by government? concerns, we did not move forward with the idea of a ministry standard. Hon. S. Thomson: I look forward to seeing both of We continue to work with the industry, with their you at the cattlemen's annual meeting. I'll be there as standard, and work between local governments and the well. Greenhouse Growers Association on making sure that We are working, as I said, cross-ministry and across those industry standards are complied with. Ultimately, government to develop a comprehensive response to the if there are concerns around those, there is a process of report. The accountability and the leadership for pro- complaints or a process that it can go through, through viding that response rest with me as the minister. The the Farm Industry Review Board. parliamentary secretary has provided the report to me. He continues to take an active role in terms of working V. Huntington: I can assure the minister that that re- with our staff and working with the association. sponse, in terms of the corporation of Delta's attitude or [1635] answer, is complete news to the people of Delta. As I indicated, the co-chairs are going to be meeting [1640] again shortly to review where we have developed as far The reason why the complaints have levelled off and as some of the specific recommendations. The parlia- disappeared is that they feel there's absolutely no reason mentary secretary continues to work with me, to hold my to complain because nobody will listen at all. The only feet to the fire in terms of delivering the comprehensive standard that I am aware of in terms of the greenhouse response, works actively with our staff. But the respon- lights in Delta is that they are turned off between six and sibility for providing that comprehensive response on ten or midnight. I can't remember the exact hours, but behalf of government rests with the minister, and as I that's the only standard I know of. They were at one time indicated, we're working on that comprehensive response. required to shield the side of the buildings, but even that I hope to provide it to the industry as soon as possible. seems to have gone the way of the blue-footed booby. So I really feel that the ministry…. It's an issue of V. Huntington: I have a few specific and fairly short cost for the greenhouse growers. That I understand. But questions with regard to Delta South in particular. I when the social implications are so significant, I think thought I would just go through those and then come the ministry has to look beyond just the Greenhouse back when other issues, such as ALC and aquaculture, Growers Association's attitude towards the cost. There are raised. are mechanisms and materials that are being used else- Firstly, I'd like to go through a short review of the where, and they ought to be considered for Delta. I really question I asked last fall in estimates, and that related would like to continue to pursue that with the minister. Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4163

The standard is not an appropriate one for an urban management practices, waterfowl damage mitigation environment. I don't think it's appropriate for a rural and compensation…. Those programs continue and are one either. When you see the sky glowing, completely funded under the existing budget. glowing, every night in the winter and there is no dark- If those are the ones they're referring to, the answer ness in a community, then something's wrong. I think is yes. If there are other specific programs that they may the ministry has to review the issue with the association. be concerned about or interested in, they can, at any I would really like to see a commitment with the minis- time, contact our office or through you, and we'll get the ter to start considering the broader social implications specific answer for them. of these lights. A very brief question would be: can the minister tell V. Huntington: One of the other issues that, as you me whether the farm practices act applies on land out- know, is so important to Delta is the order-in-council — side the ALR? 568, I believe it is — that cabinet placed on Delta in 2001. I think it was the very first thing that the newly elected Hon. S. Thomson: In response to that specific ques- cabinet ever did. tion, the act applies to land within the ALR and land I know that Delta council, or at least the administra- outside the ALR that is zoned for agriculture. So it's tive officer, has been speaking with the ministry about not confined strictly to the agricultural land reserve. If when you would consider lifting that order-in-council. it's zoned for agriculture and outside the ALR, the act It's incredibly time-consuming. It's onerous on the mu- applies. nicipality. It wastes time with the discussions that have I just wanted to follow up again, as well, with the to go back and forth with the ministry. member opposite on the issue she canvassed previously. I was wondering if the minister would at least look at I think that what we should do is have our staff meet with sections 903 and 917, wherein you can define the areas you and give you a briefing on their discussions and the and circumstances in which approval is not required — industry standard and to review it, to provide that level whether you could look at those areas and move to lift of comfort, because I recognize the concern that you ex- some measure of this order-in-council. pressed in your answer about the position of the local [1650] government. I think you need to have the opportunity to have that full discussion with our staff on that issue, Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question. I and I'll commit to having the staff do that for you. think the member opposite is probably aware that the local government has approached us on this issue. We V. Huntington: One of the other issues, in speaking have indicated that we're prepared to have staff discus- with the Delta Farmers Institute and asking whether sions with them. The decision to regulate them at the there were specific questions they would like to have time was done for a reason. We'll need to be very, very raised during estimates…. careful, in consideration, in terms of removing that cur- [1645] rent delegated situation. They said no, not in particular, except that they would As you point out, there are areas where we need to like confirmation, which they feel they've already re- work with them. We are talking about how we stream- ceived from the department, that the program money, line that process. There are areas where we may be able the grant money, in place to administer programs on the to define areas that don't apply under the delegated au- land is still in place. They were told that the money was thority. Just to be clear, we have asked staff to work with not going to be reduced and that the programs that are the local municipality, with the local government, and vital to the farming community, certainly within Delta, we're in the process of doing that. I've had discussions are still in place. with the mayor and the council on this, and it is under review. Hon. S. Thomson: Without knowing the exact specific program that they may be referencing, I can't V. Huntington: I just want to comment on one other answer 100 percent for sure. I think that if you want to aspect of the service plan that I found quite fascinat- provide us with the specific program or have the Delta ing. That's the number of what I would have thought Farmers Institute contact my office around which exact of as non-agricultural activities that the department is specific program they were referencing, I'd be happy to involved in: the strategic Crown land dispositions, re- respond to them. source management coordination, the brownfield In general, as I indicated earlier, with the success redevelopment. we've had in continuing to work and preserve the I know that in years past, brownfield, or the con- budget for the Growing Forward programs, the kind of taminated-sites legislation and authority, was with programs that the Delta Farmers Institute have been in- Environment. I'm wondering if one of the issues sur- volved in with environmental farm planning, beneficial rounding those areas…. It was mentioned that you're 4164 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

"ensuring the environmental standards and sustainability gram, the capacity to address the emerging growth in is achieved" and that you wish to "engage in world-lead- the specialty egg market. ing environmental stewardship." Who is responsible for that element of environmental L. Popham: It seems that there was intent to develop stewardship? What regulations are you using, and what new entrants since 2006. It appears that the egg board are the resources you're devoting to these areas that was to allow two new entrants per year to keep pace with are generally, in my mind, anyway, non-agricultural in the demand of the market, but it took until 2010 to grant nature? The FTEs and the budget allocations to these any new-entrant permits. Can you tell me why? areas. [1700] [1655] Hon. S. Thomson: As you may be aware, the egg Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question.I t's an board cancelled a previous new-entrant program be- important question, because it does reference the fact cause there were fairness problems around access to that that this is the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands. We program and a number of other issues in that new-en- have a very significant portion of our responsibility and trant program. activity related to the land side of the ministry as well. They have developed a new program.I think, to be fair, That involves Crown lands and a number of programs it was slower in terms of implementation than originally within that part of the ministry. anticipated and a little slower than we might have liked. If you will look at the estimate numbers, it's $13.6 mil- But as you know, they have recently started four new lion in that area of expenditure under the ministry out growers under the new-entrant program. There are an- of a total budget of $82 million. It is a significant portion other four to come very quickly, so that'll be eight within of our work. One of the main programs is the Crown a short period of time. We anticipate that the program contaminated-sites remediation program. I think that's will continue to move forward as per those numbers that the one you were probably referencing in terms of deal- you originally talked about, the two per year. ing with the environmental issues and things like that. We're playing a bit of catch-up in the program, but the We'd like to draw your attention to the fact that we egg board is under the direction to make sure that their have just released a very comprehensive report on the new-entrant program focuses on that specialty market. activities under that program. It's available on our web- site. You may want to access that report, and that gives L. Popham: The Egg Marketing Board had a wait- you the full scope of the work that's done under that list to award quota for specialty egg producers. Willy program. Driesen was on this wait-list, and she was in a situation to receive special consideration. She had to pay $250 to L. Popham: Currently the supply of specialty eggs in get on the list and $100 annually to stay on the list. B.C. equals 12 percent of the total B.C. egg market. Yet Then the wait-list was switched to a lottery system for polls indicate that the demand is closer to 30 percent, the quota, and the draw took place behind closed doors. and consumers, grocers and food retailers have com- To ensure openness and transparency, lottery draws mented that they cannot obtain sufficient and consistent are typically televised or held in public venues open to supply of specialty eggs. anyone who wishes to be present. Can you tell me what Given the domestic and international trends towards processes were put in place to ensure that the lottery re- specialty cage-free eggs, what has the ministry been do- mained open, transparent and fair? ing to support and grow this sector in B.C., making sure our farmers would be ready to go and take advantage of Hon. S. Thomson: In this process, under the lottery this new demand when the time came? process, it was conducted by a CGA firm. There was an independent observer in the process as well. That pro- [D. Horne in the chair.] cess has now provided a report on the initial process for that first round of the lottery to our Farm Industry Hon. S. Thomson: As you may know, the government Review Board. TheF arm Industry Review Board will be undertook a specialty market review in 2005. The gov- reviewing that report. ernment has made a priority around innovative products [1705] coming out of that review. Boards were directed by the If there are further improvements or adjustments ministry, through the Farm Industry Review Board, to to the lottery process that would be appropriate and have programs that focused on the development of that required to ensure that level of transparency, then I ex- market. pect that FIRB, the Farm Industry Review Board, will The new-entrant program that the egg board -cur be making those recommendations. But it was carried rently has in place is targeted to the specialty market. out by a CGA firm with an independent observer, and The board is continuing to provide, through that pro- we are receiving a report on that process. The Farm Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4165

Industry Review Board will be reviewing that and mak- purchase agricultural land to set up shop, whereas there ing appropriate recommendations if required. were other people in the draw who were ready to go at the drop of a hat, as soon as they got their quota. L. Popham: At this point, are you able to tell me the I guess the eligibility requirements for the lottery are name of the accounting firm that conducted the draw, in question for me. That being said, we're going to be how the accounting firm was selected and who was running out of time, so the minister can get back to me present at the draw? on that at a certain point. There's a backlog of layer quota in the system because Hon. S. Thomson: I'm advised that the accounting it took so long for this to be implemented. I think there's firm was a firm calledL arson and Associates. They were a backlog of about 18,000 hens, and I'm wondering if contracted by the egg board to run the lottery function there's going to be some way of addressing that issue, and provide that service. In terms of the specifics of Minister. how they were selected, I would have to…. I don't have that information with me. I would need to get that in- Hon. S. Thomson: Just as a follow-up to the last re- formation and provide it back to you. The independent sponse. The four successful candidates under the first observer that was selected to be part of that process was draw in the lottery — that information is available on an individual named Jack Wessel. the website. The farm names and individuals are posted on the websites, both the Farm Industry Review Board L. Popham: I'd like to know the names of the success- website and the B.C. Egg Marketing Board website, so ful applicants who won the lottery, and I'd also like to you can reference those directly. know why the process was changed to be behind closed In terms of the number of eggs that you just referred doors. There were two farmers who had wanted to be to, in terms of the 18,000, that's an industry reserve that part of that process. Their names were submitted to be is held by the board. That reserve is used for a number part of the lottery. They wanted to witness the lottery of things. It's always in a bit of a state of flux, but they take place, the draw take place, and they were denied ac- use it for certain innovative products that may come cess. If you could tell me why, that would be great. along that they need to have some reserve of to focus on a specific innovative market.I t's used for some small-lot Hon. S. Thomson: I don't have the specific names agriculture permits — that kind of thing. It fluctuates, with me. I was just checking with staff, and they could and potentially, some of that reserve can also be made probably provide a couple of them. But I think the better available for the new entrant program. way to do it is to commit to provide you with the names As I said, we're moving into the next stage of four of the successful applicants for the first draw. more permits in the near future. The egg board will con- In terms of the process, as indicated, it was run by an tinue to manage that reserve quantity they have for the independent accounting firm. You need to be advised purposes of those innovative products, those small-lot that there were 130 applicants to the program, so I think permits and other things that they may need it for and, the decision was around logistics in the managing pro- ultimately, could put some of that into the new entrant cess, with that many applicants to the program, in terms program on the specialty market side of things. But that of conducting a lottery process where they were all in is the management decision of the board and how they attendance and participating. manage that reserve. [1710] As I said earlier, we are receiving a report on the pro- D. Donaldson: I have a question for the minister cess for the first round under the lottery. The Farm regarding a specific issue, but it has broad application, Industry Review Board will be reviewing that report. considering the size of the catchment area the issue per- We'll be making appropriate recommendations around tains to and the role of the Ministry of Agriculture. ensuring transparency and accountability in the pro- [1715] cess, but I'm confident that the process was managed I have a letter here that the minister received last independently, with an independent observer. month. It's from the Northwest Premium Meat Co-op in As I said, we'll be getting a report, and the Farm Smithers in my constituency. It's from the board to the Industry Review Board, which is responsible for the minister, describing a situation where the co-op board oversight of the regulated boards, will be reviewing that is recommending to their members that they're going to report and providing appropriate recommendations. be forced to close on May 1, 2010, and that will come up at their AGM on April 28. L. Popham: So the lottery drew names of farmers To quote the letter: "It is very disappointing that we'll who entered the lottery but perhaps weren't completely be forced to close due to inadequate stable funding op- ready to set up to become farms that were producing portunities, when the federal government so recently eggs. In fact, one of the winners of the draw still has to committed millions of stimulus dollars to our province." 4166 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

They point out that "the establishment of the co-op [H. Bloy in the chair.] consumed over seven years of volunteer time, hundreds of thousands of local dollars to build," and it's going to be Hon. S. Thomson: No, the ministry does not have closed down according to their recommendation. Finally, any plans to replace the BCVMA. I don't have the au- they're saying: "Our region needs your help to save this thority to do that. provincially inspected facility for our communities." I was looking at the budget estimates and the R. Chouhan: Is the minister aware if there will be any vote, Vote 14, that we're considering here, and there's changes in the near future to the BCVMA in any shape "Strategic industry development" under your author- or form, structurally or otherwise? ity. It covers industry initiatives, issues affecting the establishment, production, marketing and business Hon. S. Thomson: I'm going to provide a qualified management of agriculture and food sectors. This sub- answer at this point and then seek some direction from vote under "Strategic industry development" also covers the Chair as well. policy, legislative and regulatory development around [1725] agrifood sectors. The member opposite knows that we've had a con- So I believe that this co-op falls within those types of sultation process seeking views from the public, from topics. They're asking for help, and my question to the stakeholders and things, about various matters around minister is: can you describe the kind of help that you the administration of the practice of veterinary medi- can offer as Agriculture Minister to these dedicated pro- cine in British Columbia. ducers from as far afield as Haida Gwaii to Vanderhoof I'm reminded, though, of the standing orders which to Dease Lake — an incredible size in the province? say: "Only the administrative action of a department is open to debate. The necessity for legislation and mat- Hon. S. Thomson: As the member opposite is aware, ters involving legislation cannot be discussed in the the government has had a significant program in place Committee of Supply." So that's why I've provided the to assist with the establishment of abattoirs and slaugh- qualified answer that there has been a process to seek ter facilities throughout the program. That is under input around the matters around the practice of veterin- the Ministry of Healthy Living and Sport program, so ary medicine, and the minister is well aware of that with in terms of that specific program and assistance, that the consultation process that we had. should be canvassed under that ministry. [1720] The Chair: Member, and noting the comments of the Since inception we've added 75 slaughter plants that minister. have been approved. The number of licensed abattoirs has increased from 28 in 2004 to 84 in 2009. So we've R. Chouhan: Let's stick with the budgetary questions made a significant investment in building the capacity then. Is there any funding provided by this ministry to within the industry. BCVMA and how much? With respect to this specific one,I 'm aware of the chal- lenges that are facing that specific co-op.A t this point in Hon. S. Thomson: There is no funding provided by time under the programs that are available, we have pro- this ministry. vided the maximum assistance possible consistent with what has been provided to other operations. It is a chal- R. Chouhan: Is there any ongoing process that the lenge to look to provide something there that is more ministry has available to itself which provides the ability than or not consistent with what has been provided to to get accountability or seek any information as to the other operations within the program. functions of BCVMA under this ministry? I can say that we are aware of the situation, and staff continue to work with the co-op. In the past we have had Hon. S. Thomson: The association, as a professional some considerations around assisting them in some spe- association, is required to report to their member- cial considerations of finding financing and recognize the ship, to provide the annual reports, to hold the annual importance of this co-op to the area. Staff are continuing meeting processes. That's where the accountability is to work with them, but we also have to do that within the provided. The disciplinary procedures are posted on constraints of our existing programs and consistent ap- their website. That's the accountability to their- mem proaches that we have with other established facilities. bership. There's not a provision for specific reporting to the minister. R. Chouhan: I have some questions about BCVMA. The question that I have is: is there any plan that the J. Brar: I would like to ask probably a couple of ques- ministry has made to replace the BCVMA as it func- tions around the B.C. Veterinarians Act. I understand, tions now? before I say my questions, that we're not here to discuss Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4167

the act, but I would like to ask a question related to the a group of veterinarians called B.C. Vets for Justice and comment the minister made just a few seconds ago. the B.C. Veterinary Medical Association. My understanding is that the B.C. Veterinarians Act That has been there for years.I t's ongoing, and I don't is under review at this point in time and that the minis- think that served the purpose for the people of British ter has initiated the public consultation process, which Columbia. It's painful; it's ugly. My expectation will be I appreciate. I just want to know: what steps were taken that when we go through this process and look into to ensure that all stakeholders have the information and those things, there must be a conflict resolution process, the ability to provide their meaningful input into the which at this point in time I think is the gap there, so process? that these kinds of conflicts do not go on for years. [1730] [1735] That's one commentI would like to make. The second Hon. S. Thomson: Before I provide the answer, I'd one is that there is fear from one group of people that like to again seek the direction of the Chair, because the this ministry funded, not this year but a couple of years points they made earlier around the necessity for legisla- before, the B.C. Veterinary Medical Association in their tion or matters involving legislation cannot be addressed legal fight. Basically, the taxpayers' money — there's an in Committee of Supply. This appears to be a question allegation — was spent against one group over the other that is addressing either the necessity for legislation or one. If that's true, that's not a good example as well. We administrative matters around the legislation. should address those things in this process so that we are aware, and we can make good changes when the The Chair: Maybe I could ask the minister…. time comes. Legislation and the policies around it that come up with With that, I would like to ask the minister…. One of the operating procedures of the ministry would be a fair the groups, which is B.C. Vets for Justice, approached question — but not related to the legislation at all. me and many other members. They felt a bit left out of this public consultation process. Will the minister or the Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you. With that guidance, staff be prepared to meet with them so that they can pro- and I'll seek the guidance of the Chair if he thinks I'm vide their meaningful input into the process? starting to stray beyond the bounds here…. But just to advise, you asked about the consultation Hon. S. Thomson: I'm advised that staff did meet with process. It was a web-based consultation process. All a key representative of that organization or that group members of the association were advised. Stakeholder on two occasions. They've also provided input through groups and other interested organizations and par- the web-based approach. So we had the consultation ties were advised of the opportunity to provide input through that process. It was announced at the annual process, all interested parties have had that opportunity meeting of the association. Additionally, related organ- to provide their views and input, and all of that is being izations were also advised of the opportunity for input. taken into consideration. So staff did meet twice with Organizations like the B.C. Cattlemen's Association what I understand is a key representative for that group. and others were advised of that opportunity. So there was good notification around the consultation process H. Bains: I have a few questions just along the same and the opportunity to provide input. line. You would know that if so many people are coming to this House asking those questions, it just shows how The Chair: Member for Surrey-Fleetwood, if I could serious the issue is out there in the community. If we had remind you to stay away from the legislation and the time, you would have at least another six or seven mem- recommendations of necessity for amendments to it. bers coming here asking the same questions or similar questions on the same issue. J. Brar: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I understand that. I think the question was asked…. Perhaps I could That's why I made the comment at the very begin- ask it again because the answer wasn't coming. On the ning that I understand that we're not going to discuss funding side, perhaps the minister could answer this the amendments or changes to the B.C. Veterinarians question. Did the ministry pay the BCVMA any money Act here. But I'm talking about basically the budgetary in 2008, 2009 or 2010 to assist them in their legal fight things, which is the process taking place at this point in with their own members? time — the policy. [1740] Keeping in mind the time — I know that my fellow members plan to ask questions as well — I'd like to make Hon. S. Thomson: I'm advised that during the time comments and then leave with the last question. Why period that you canvassed, the ministry did not pro- I'm asking these questions…. The minister probably is vide any financial assistance for legal costs of the B.C. aware about that. There's an ongoing conflict between Veterinary Medical Association. 4168 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

H. Bains: Did the ministry pay any money, for any M. Sather: I'd like to ask the minister some ques- reason, to the BCVMA for the same period? tions about aquaculture, specifically about sea lice. The minister will know that it's a considerable concern both Hon. S. Thomson: To the best of my knowledge…. within the industry and outside the industry about what I'm advised that the Ministry of Agriculture did not pro- effect sea lice are having on not only our farmed fish but vide any financial assistance to the Veterinary Medical also our wild salmon. Association during the time period canvassed — or ear- A concern that has come up was with regard to resist- lier, I'm advised. ance that sea lice are gaining to the drugs that are used to control them, specifically one called LICES , and that H. Bains: From that answer, I would take it, then, that this resistance is already occurring in eastern Canada no money was provided by the ministry, through any and in Norway. The industry is concerned about it. means, to the BCVMA during that period. That would Alexandra Morton has obtained information on sea be the answer that I would take from the minister's lice around the northern Vancouver Island area where response. she does her work. Information that Marine Harvest has I will move on then. As you can see, these are very provided shows a clear pattern between application of sensitive issues. Over a hundred, maybe 150, days have SLICE in April 2007 and a subsequent drop in sea lice already gone through, as they are before the human for six months, followed by an increase in sea lice num- rights panel, and then more days are scheduled. Maybe bers. This is the typical pattern that one would expect this hearing will make the Guinness Book of World with the application of the drug. It knocks the sea lice Records for the number of days that members are taking back for a period of time, and then they recover. their association through a human rights case. Perhaps However, the information that's been provided by it'd be close. Grieg Seafood shows a different pattern. TheirE speranza I think this is something that the minister should be fish farm, for example, shows that although sea lice num- concerned about. This is something that we all should bers dropped from 40 sea lice per fish inO ctober 2009 to be concerned about. There are some serious allegations, about eight sea lice per fish after treatment withLICE S and they are always trying to find a way to go around that month, that level, at eight, is still almost three times and keep on going after certain members of that asso- the provincially allowable level for sea lice. ciation. It's a very serious issue when you see that many Ms. Morton says, and I think she makes a good point, days before a human rights panel. that this high survival rate of sea lice shows that the sea My next question is in anticipation of the act and the lice are developing resistance to the drug. She goes on to legislation change. The minister may or may not be able, say that the surviving lice began reproducing right away or be in a position, to answer this question. There's a — that is, right away after the application of the drug — serious concern by those members that are involved in and the numbers had already increased to 13 sea lice per the human rights case, and by others, that the BCVMA fish by January, again indicating drug resistance. may use the minister's office or that the minister may, Dr. Mark Sheppard, who is the veterinarian, aqua- through legislation, try to bring in changes retroactively tic animal health, for the Ministry of Agriculture and so that it will affect that particular case that is before the Lands, said that there is no indication of resistance to Human Rights Commission. SLICE in these data. Can the minister explain how it is Can the minister assure those members that any chan- that his staff feel that this data does not indicate a resist- ges you bring in will not affect the case that is before the ance to SLICE? panel right now? [1750]

The Chair: Minister, in your response if you'd con- Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question. As sider the legislation that's before…. So your response you know, there's a lot of work being done through our may be very limited. fish health monitoring program and through scientific [1745] research into this. There are a number of factors that im- pact numbers of sea lice, including salinity and a whole Hon. S. Thomson: I'm mindful that there is a process number of other factors in terms of the management. underway with the Human Rights Tribunal, and there Thank you for referencing the good work of Dr. Mark are review processes, and it would not be appropriate for Sheppard on this. Both provincial scientists through our me to comment on those or to be involved in those. health program and federal scientists that are under- I do recognize the overall seriousness of the issue, and taking research in this area do not find direct evidence it's something that I think we are all aware of. I think the of resistance to SLICE. The situation continues to be question — and I'm going to seek the direction of the monitored. Chair — with respect to legislation is out of scope for There's research continuing on it through the fish these estimates. health programs, but the information that you've put Monday, April 12, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4169

forward around direct resistance is purely specula- plant is operating in compliance with its waste manage- tive at this point. There are a whole number of factors. ment permit. Resistance may be a part of it, but that work continues to be done by those leading scientists and is part of the M. Sather: When Alexandra Morton has asked for fish health monitoring program. sea lice data from fish farms, the ministry has instructed her to ask those fish farms for that information, in sev- M. Sather: Dr. Sheppard also said that there was a eral locations. So why is the public not privy to sea lice very large and very late run of chum salmon bearing sea data from private fish farms when the farms are operat- lice and that these fish reinfected after theLICE S had ing in public waters and there are definite risks to wild worn off. They had reinfected from this run. But ac- salmon? cording to the manufacturer, SLICE provides "ten weeks' [1805] prolonged efficacy against all species and stages of lice." The sea lice treated in October should have continued Hon. S. Thomson: The ministry publishes annually to decline to at least the middle of December, but the data the fish health reports on an area basis. We have been show that the numbers of sea lice went up right after the operating up to this point on the assumption that the drop in November post-treatment. So the sea lice num- individual data was proprietary information of the bers started going up sharply before the apparent run of companies, and so we've been meeting the obligations chum salmon. That would have been in December. in terms of public reporting through the fish health [1755] reports. Can the minister comment on that? What evidence We know that a number of companies — Marine can he provide that there was a very large and very Harvest, for example — do publish individual data on late run of chum salmon? Where and when did that an individual site–basis. That's their decision. But the happen? specific individual data is viewed as proprietary infor- mation of the individual companies, and so we have Hon. S. Thomson: This is a very technical argument managed the reporting through the annual reports of in terms of how SLICE works. The reinfestation is not an the fish health reports. indication of resistance. As I stated earlier, there's no evi- The issue has been raised as part of the ongoing dence of resistance in all the scientific data and research discussion now in terms of transfer of regulatory re- by the scientists. There are many questions around how sponsibility to the federal government, and that issue is the whole SLICE works. being reviewed and addressed during those transition I think what would be best…. I'd be quite prepared discussions with the federal government. to have our scientists sit down directly with the member opposite and go through all the science that's available M. Sather: I have one last question. Why did the prov- with the current information around this. The comments ince not attempt to keep shellfish aquaculture within that resistance is developing are purely speculative, and provincial jurisdiction, and therefore, the monitoring all the evidence that we've been provided through our could be done by the province? fish health program and the federal scientists is that re- sistance is not developing to SLICE. Hon. S. Thomson: In response to the question, the decision to transfer the regulatory authority for shell- M. Sather: I'll certainly take the minister up on that. fish as well as finfish as part of the transition as a result Alexandra Morton has documented instances of large of the Hinkson decision was a pragmatic decision. The quantities of blood flowing from fish farm underwater federal government asserted their authority in terms of discharge pipes — and the minister may have seen the management of aquaculture overall. In discussions with graphic video that she has on that — containing larval the industry and supported by the industry, the decision lice and eggs coming out of the pipes. What is the gov- was made to transfer full regulatory authority to provide ernment doing to address this issue? an efficient, streamlined, regulatory one-stop process for [1800] the aquaculture industry, including finfish and shellfish.

Hon. S. Thomson: Just to confirm that the reference L. Popham: On to the apple growers. I'm just won- the member opposite is making is not to a fish farm; it dering if the minister has submitted an application for is a processing plant. That plant is regulated under the AgriRecovery to the federal government on behalf of the waste discharge permit or under waste discharge regula- apple growers at this point. tions under the Ministry of Environment. Following that information being provided to us, the site was investi- Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for that question. The gated and inspected by the ministry and the Ministry of tree fruit industry is one that, as the member opposite Environment, and all the reports back indicate that the knows, is very challenged. I have had discussions with 4170 British Columbia Debates Monday, April 12, 2010

the federal minister in terms of responding to the cur- As we commented earlier, the fiscal challenges that we rent issues in the tree fruit industry. have within the ministry…. We've needed to focus on [1810] the critical services and the core programs, but we do There are some questions around the eligibility of have two full-time staff that are dedicated to supporting the current situation for AgriRecovery, since freeze is the growth of the organic industry and working closely covered by production insurance, and this was the gen- with and supporting the Certified Organic Association esis of some of the fruit growers' concerns in this area. of B.C., one on the policy side and one on the production Technically, it may not qualify for AgriRecovery. But we side. We'll continue to work closely with the COABC or- are in discussions with the federal minister, and I con- ganic association to assist that industry in continuing to tinue to have ongoing discussions with the leadership of grow. the Fruit Growers Association in terms of responding to the current situation. Those discussions are ongoing. Vote 14: ministry operations, $68,494,000 — ap- proved. L. Popham: This will be my final question. Can the minister tell me if there are funds allocated in the budget Vote 15: Agricultural Land Commission, $2,088,000 this year for agriculture to cover the costs of the organic — approved. extension program that will end on August 15 and if there will be other money put aside to support the or- Hon. S. Thomson: I move that the committee rise, ganic industry? report resolutions and completion of the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands and ask leave to sit again. Hon. S. Thomson: In response to the specific ques- tion, there is not capacity within our budget this year to Motion approved. provide specific support for the organic extension offi- cer. It's not in our current budget. The committee rose at 6:14 p.m. Hansard Services

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