74 Practice Issues – Interview of Niki Harré by Nicholas Carr

Niki Harré was invited by the Rafto these systems for our wellbeing. If we Institute for human rights and Bergen expanded the field of CP to include Municipality, and came all the way to ecological issues, then we will bring it closer Norway from New Zealand, via San Diego. to environmental psychology. CP could also She was also invited to Naples, but could not contribute to environmental psychology, come this time as she had already arranged to because of our understanding of how people go to The Netherlands and Germany. Niki is work in groups and communities. Professor of Community Psychology in Do you think working with sustainability Auckland, New Zealand, and author of the will attract more psychologists to the recently published book, Psychology for a profession of community psychology? Better World: Strategies to Inspire We can expect this to grow in the Sustainability, which has resulted in wide future, because the climate problems will not debate and positive reactions. She held an go away by themselves. In New Zealand I engaging talk at the United Nations Climate find there is more professional concern from Conference recently, where this interview people in disciplines other than psychology. took place (October 2013). Many people in the natural sciences want Welcome to Bergen, the west coast capital psychologists to be involved, because they of Norway! After reading your book, understand these problems are about how Psychology for a Better World, I became people think, feel, and behave, but curious to investigate the connections psychologists are lagging behind. This is a between community psychology (CP) and pity as CP could contribute a great deal environmental psychology. What effect do through our understanding of how to work you think the climate crisis has had on the with groups towards positive social change. development of community psychology as Our focus on social justice also means we are a practical and academic profession? able to approach solutions in a way that is Very little as yet. CP tends to build good for people as well as the environment. itself around concepts like social justice, As a society, we need to decide what kind of poverty, and homelessness and in this way world we want to live in. Do we want a usually limits itself to overcoming human sustainable community or a materially-rich suffering. There is a small movement towards one? Do we want a participatory democracy environmental social justice within CP. This that respects diversity? We need to build is mostly about local pollution issues and positive visions of the future – as suggested how less privileged communities are often by the CP Julian Rappaport – ‘Tales of Joy’ the location for toxic industries and waste that attract both our colleagues and disposal. CP has not yet integrated the communities to be part of the movement for implications of climate change in its sustainability. professional education and practical work. In It is easy to teach children to care about any academic discipline, it takes a long time wildlife. For example, my daughter is to change the core focus. People have not yet concerned about the effects of rubbish going come to terms with the close relationship into the sea because she has been taught it between climate change and social justice. As harms sea creatures. Wisdom is holistic a value-based discipline, CP could include knowledge, knowing how things are ecological wellbeing in its sphere of concern. connected. If we are truly ‘whole’ we will try This would include considering ecological to avoid harmful or destructive practices. systems as precious and worthy of our care in Wise people care for others, both human and their own right. Of course we also depend on non-human.

The Australian Community Psychologist Volume 25 No 2 December 2013 © The Australian Psychological Society Ltd Harré interview 75

Should we join forces to make an impact, people and communities acting towards a across the disciplines of environmental, wide variety of positive solutions and taking architecture, and community psychology? ownership of these issues. We should be At my university in Auckland, New drawing on communities’ creative solutions, Zealand, most staff in the School of not trying to make people do what we want. Psychology do not engage in environmental The social marketing approach does not issues. As with most psychologists, their threaten the basis of a consumerist capitalist priority is to understand people and they do society; it tries to make small changes within so within their particular specialty. that paradigm. I think CP is more Mainstream modern psychology is more adventurous than that! We can aim for a interested in brain imaging than in how society of inclusion and participation, and people are affecting the environment that working out how we want to live well sustains them. This is a pity. If we stand together on our planet is a great place to start. alone as a discipline, we are weaker; we need We need to teach a new psychology to fly in a flock – then we are stronger and and resist the idea of profit – that is, some reach further. At my university I work with people being allowed to extract more value the environment coordinator and colleagues from communities than they put in. Our core in geography, anthropology, town planning, competencies should include methods for law, biology, and engineering on these issues. advocating sustainable lives and building If you were to build a European Master of sustainable communities. The pedagogical Community Psychology course, should tools to manage this and teach sustainable environmental psychology be included? practices are many; in my School, only one in Definitely! Or rather we should call it eight courses in psychology at the graduate ‘ecopsychology’ – a broader concept that level is concerned with sustainability. The includes other parts of psychology as well. main thing is connecting practices to our There is an international journal called hearts and minds. One way to do this is to Ecopsychology that is worth looking into. It take on a personal challenge for a couple of deals with many issues such as how people weeks – being a vegan, not eating at benefit from time in nature, and how we are restaurants, cycling to work, taking the bus, connected to nature at a deep psychological and then experiencing the hazards and level. Many of our archetypes relate to difficulties of this change. Action is a natural objects and I think it is difficult to powerful tool for engaging and politicising argue that people can thrive in a society that students and ourselves. is damaging the environment. Our models What is your future dream for all must be future-based and take into account psychologists? the changes and long-term effects of climate I would love to see sustainability as a change. I also feel we need to take a much core value in all our programmes. We all broader approach than the one advocated by need to be part of creating a positive future. social marketing. This approach suggests we should try and ‘change behaviour’ by using Address for correspondence similar techniques to commercial advertising [email protected] or health promotion. That is, we should focus on the behaviour itself and not worry about what people think. It assumes that we, the experts, know the solution and the goal is to make people behave in accordance with it. I think a CP approach should instead be to get

The Australian Community Psychologist Volume 25 No 2 December 2013 © The Australian Psychological Society Ltd