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Da´Il E´Ireann Vol. 674 Tuesday, No. 1 10 February 2009 DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Tuesday, 10 February 2009. Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 1 Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources Priority Questions …………………………… 14 Other Questions …………………………… 24 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 29 Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 30 Request to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 32 ……………… 35 Order of Business ……………………………… 35 Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2009: Referral to Select Committee ………………………… 40 Stabilisation and Association Agreements: Referral to Select Committee …………… 40 Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008: Second Stage (resumed) …………… 40 Private Members’ Business Hospital Services: Motion…………………………… 62 Adjournment Debate FA´ S Training Programmes ………………………… 88 Community Employment Schemes ……………………… 90 FA´ S Training Centres …………………………… 92 Home Help Service …………………………… 94 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 97 DA´ IL E´ IREANN DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL OFFICIAL REPORT Imleabhar 674 Volume 674 De´ Ma´irt, 10 Feabhra 2009. Tuesday, 10 February 2009. ———— Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m. ———— Paidir. Prayer. ———— Ceisteanna — Questions. ———— Ministerial Travel. 1. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach the procedures in place in his office to regulate the use of the Government jet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40577/08] 2. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach the procedures used by his office to regulate and monitor the use of the Government jet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46100/08] 3. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach the procedures in place in his Department in respect of the use of the Government jets; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46595/08] 4. Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Taoiseach if changes are proposed in the pro- cedures for the use of the Government jet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1778/09] The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together. 1 Ceisteanna — 10 February 2009. Questions [The Taoiseach.] The procedures my predecessor outlined to the House on use of the ministerial air transport service, MATS, most recently on 22 April 2008, have not changed. The position is that my approval is required prior to the service being used. Procedurally, requests for use of the service are made by Ministers’ private secretaries to my office and are dealt with, in the first instance, by the staff of my office. Requests are examined by my staff with regard to the need for and purpose of travel, the destination and other logistical details. Any necessary clarification or further information is sought at that point. All screened requests are then submitted to me for my consideration and approval, if deemed appropriate. Once approved, all operational matters are settled directly between the office of the Minister in question and the Department of Defence or Air Corps. No changes are proposed in the procedures for the use of the ministerial air transport service. All applications for use of MATS are considered in the context of its efficiencies. Deputy Enda Kenny: Is the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, speaking for the Government when he says that members of the Government could make substantial savings by travelling on commercial flights? Does the Taoiseach have any figures on the use of commercial flights by Ministers? Is the Gulfstream jet back in operation? I understand it costs \7,100 an hour. It was out of commission for several months in 2008 and, after a major overhaul costing almost \2 million, something went in it three weeks later and it was stranded for a while. What is the situation? I know it is an aging aircraft, but if these machines are well serviced, they have a very long lifespan. Is the Minister, Deputy Gormley, speaking for the Government when he says there will now be a big shift onto commercial air flights? What is the status of the Gulfstream? Is it operational and fully ready to fly? The Taoiseach: Where appropriate, scheduled flights are used by Ministers. In addition, use is made of the ministerial air transport service when it is the only way for a Minister to get to meetings and carry out his or her ministerial functions. It offers the type of flexibility that scheduled flights cannot provide. It is not tied to set routes or timetables. The jet can also use military as well as civil airports and it can lead to significant savings in travel time. When considering applications for the use of Government jets, regard is had to the avail- ability of scheduled flights as well the differences in financial costs and levels of emissions. A balance has to be struck. Even though sometimes there may be significant cost differentials, other factors such as the level of flexibility available, the purpose of the travel, destination, route, timings and passenger details warrant use of a Government jet as opposed to alternative scheduled flights. They are used, as the Deputy knows, interchangeably. Regarding the Gulfstream, as the Deputy knows, it has been in service for 17 or 18 years and has an annual overhaul as required by the service guidelines applying to it. It is operational and is kept in proper repair by the Air Corps. Deputy Enda Kenny: I recognise the value of having a jet for the prime minister of a country and the busier Departments. We had this argument before. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, has been very upfront about carbon footprints. There is no extra carbon footprint when one takes a commercial flight because it is going anyway. I do not believe Prime Minister Blair ever had the use of a government jet. Deputy Noel Dempsey: Always. 2 Ceisteanna — 10 February 2009. Questions Deputy Enda Kenny: Had he? Deputy Martin Cullen: He used the RAF. Deputy Noel Dempsey: He always flew with the RAF. Deputy Enda Kenny: He used the RAF, but that is a different carbon footprint, as the Ministers know. Does the Taoiseach have a figure for the carbon footprint per kilometre of the Gulfstream and the Lear jets? I am not sure how that is calculated, but if it can be calculated for cars, it can be done for jets. Given that the Minister, Deputy Gormley, is very agitated about this matter, I note that the Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, and the Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O’Dea, went on a failed mission to Austin, Texas, to talk to Mr. Michael Dell prior to the Dell announcement, which, we are told, cost \164,000. I just checked before coming to the Chamber and an economy American Airlines flight leaving Dublin tomorrow and returning in two days would cost \1,000 for the two Ministers. However, since they are Ministers, it would cost \9,000 if they travelled business class to Dallas. An internal flight to Austin would be very reasonable. When the request was made for both Ministers to fly to Texas, the Taoiseach’s Department vetted it. Would it not have been considered that substantial savings could be made if both Ministers flew comfortably in business class to Texas? Has the Taoiseach since issued reminders that, where possible and within reason, people should fly commercially when such flights are available? The Taoiseach: On the specific issue, there was a requirement to meet with the managing director of Dell very quickly in regard to impending decisions and it was the right thing to do in the circumstances. I am informed by the Department of Defence that, in keeping with normal practice in the aviation business, it is not possible to assign an exact cost to any particular mission. However, on the basis of an approximation to actual costs, the average direct cost of \4,000 per hour would be a more reasonable measure. These are costs which arise while the aircraft is being flown and include maintenance, fuel and support services. One is at times required to meet a number of people from one stage to another and the jet is used for that purpose. Scheduled flights could not be used in situations where, for example, one is going to Luxembourg and Berlin before continuing on to London. Deputy Enda Kenny: I recall the former Taoiseach, Mr. Reynolds, stopping off in various locations. An Ceann Comhairle: Never mind that. The Taoiseach: The idea in these modern times that Government business can be conducted without requiring the use of these facilities is not correct. In the interest of getting work done and then returning, it is important they are used. It is also important, where it is appropriate and in line with timings, etc., to use scheduled flights. I have done so myself. Deputy Enda Kenny: In regard to carbon footprints, how are these calculated for a jet such as that used by the Government? The Taoiseach: Specific questions about levels of emissions, etc., should be addressed to the Minister for Defence. 3 Ceisteanna — 10 February 2009. Questions Deputy Eamon Gilmore: The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- ment, Deputy Gormley, was explicit on this matter. He stated that we could get rid of the Government jet in the morning and it would not cause us any problem whatsoever. Does the Taoiseach agree with that statement? Would he agree, for example, that since the first purchase of a Government jet in 1980, there has been a huge increase in the availability of commercial flights and access from this country to various parts of Europe and elsewhere and that perhaps the Minister is correct that getting rid of the Government jet would not cause any problems? What is the status of the Minister’s statement? The notion of what is termed “collective cabinet responsibility” used to exist.
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