·age 8-CaliforJ1ja Review-February ............................................. .................... ............. ....................... ......... ..... , ••••••••••••• • •• • •••• t L Californi·a Review Inte] Shattering Myths: The Eco Dr. Thomas Sowell s studies ofthe economic perfor­ CR : Do you think tuition tax credits or a voucher SOWELL: I saw some data just recently about women mance of ethnic groups have won him high acclaim. system would help the poor? in the same occupations working full-time. You see, He so eloquently smashes the false premises behind women don't work as many hours a year and do not much popular thinking that his answers during a 1981 SOWELL: I think that any form of greater parental work as many continuous years as do men. When you edition of" Meet the Pres~ "prompted a producer in the choice would be a great improvement in education. control for all these things you tind that this great gap control room to comment, "You know, this is the first Where the parents have some input as, for example in is no longer there. You don't even have to control for time the guest has moderated the show." the Headstart program, they tend to produce better all of them. If you just count women who have never educational results than the public school system. In married and compare them to men who have never Born in North Carolina, Dr. Sowell later moved to fact, I would argue that you would be hard pressed to rna rried, for the whole range of ages from 25 to 54, you Harlem, where he grew up in the 1930s and 1940s. find any alternative means of education that does not find that women in that category earn 91 % of what After dropping out of high school, he served with the produce better results. Even the U.S. Army has taken men earn. You haven't even looked at differences in Marines during the Korean War. Using the G. I. Bill, people who are functionally illiterate and in a relatively education or occupation and you haven't even Dr. Sowell went on to earn degrees at Harvard (where short period of the time improved their performance. completely taken into account the fact that some he graduated magna cum laude in 1958), Columbia women are mothers because even though we're talking University, and obtained his Ph. D. in &onomics at CR: Do you think racism is the cause of income about women who have never married, the rise in differences between blacks, Hi ~ panics, and whites? the University of Chicago in 1968. Starting in 1970 he unwed motherhood means that there are still some taught economics at U. C. L.A., where he stayed until women in that group who have children. Bearing becoming a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution at SOWELL: No. For one thing, racism has existed in too many places at too many periods of history for it to children and raising children is also a handicap to Stanford University in September of 1980. Thomas earnings. Sowell is the author of many books including explain much of anything. Unless you're prepared to Knowledge and Decisions, Markets ·and Minorities, take the racism out to such lengths as slavery or CR: Why are free market economies less compatible Ethnic America, and most recently, The Economics of genocide, my studies in race and economics around the with ra cism and sexism than state controlled or non­ Politics and Race: An International Perspective. Dr. world does not suggest to me that that is a factor. For competitive economies? example, blacks have a higher unemployment rate Sowell graciously took time to talk with CR 's Optimo SOWELL: They're equally compatible with racism. Princeps, C. Brandon Crocker, for this interview. than whites today. If you go back prior to 1940 or 1930 you'll find that blacks had lower unemployment rates They're not equally compatible with giving that racism than whites and higher rates , of labor force full reign in the form of discrimination. South Africa, participation. You can't argue that there was less before the government became massively involved in the economy, let's say in the early 20th century, was, CR: Have the affirmative action programs of the past racism then. ~~~~~ 20 years helped minorities? CR: Then what factors do you think account for the H differences in incomes? What I have.. tried to do is SOWELL: Well, affirmattve action isn't 20 years old. I guess I would date affirmative action to about SOWELL: I look at it very differently. Everywhere show the lack of validity in December 1971 because that's when you get numerical that I've looked in the world I find disparities among goals and timetables. Over that period of time, disad­ groups, regardless of who has the political power. the underlying p remise of vantaged blacks for example. have fallen further Sometimes those with the political power have lower behind compa rable whites while the more well off in comes. sometimes th ey have higher incomes. It much social thinking which blacks. with more educati on and job experi ence have doesn't seem to make much difference. It's a question moved up relative to whites. So it's a very mixed of ~ kill ~. For example·. you finrl G e rm a n ~ .lc " '' proceeds fron1 thP ns~11rnn- ricture 'frnm'thlt r'iinint n f llit" ..l lf """ ' "~ ' ' .• • :, ... ~ behind ,compara ble whites while the more well ott incomes, sometimes they have higher incomes. It ''"""""""" '" ...., '-' ............ - ........... ........... · o blacks. with mo re educati o n a nd job experience have doesn't seem to make much difference. It's a questi o n 1<noved up relative to whites. So it's a very mixed ,,_of ~~i ll .s. ~o r ex~ ":l.PJ.e , you,. find Germa ns, .J ews, proceedsfrom the assump­ picturerromrhdt~poln i'"Of View'":" Iflyou 'foo'tnf'it lhe~ Japanese, and Chinese in the United States making ~~ way I think it should be looked at- loo king at the mo re than, say, blacks or Hispa nics. Well you'll find ·tion that groups would be -· trends tha t existed beforeha nd a nd comparing that the very same thing in Latin America. That is you'll with the t rends that exist a fterwa rds- what's happened fi nd Chinese ma king m ore than Hispa nics in Hispa nic evenly distributed in the a fterwards is no m ore than the continuation of trends countries. You'll find Jews ma king more than Hispanics tha t go back lo ng before affirma tive acti o n o·r the civil in Hispanic countries. You 'll find the Chinese making absence ofinstitutional dis­ rights movement. T he number of blacks in high level mo re tha n blacks in a black run country li ke Ja maica. posit ions had been increasing a nd the ra te has not .So. I'm not sure that answers your question. crimination. " accelerated in the slightest since the existence of ~~~~~~~~~ affi rma tive action. The same is true of Mexican­ C R: Have you found differences in age to account for I'm sure, just as racist as it is today. But, nevertheless, Americans. Puerto Ricans, a nd Asians. Asia ns had much? blacks were rising up the occupational ladder- so over-taken whites in income five years before the civi l much so that there were violent out bursts by uni o ns. rights act of 1964. Mexican-Americans' incomes, SOWELL: In some cases yes, in some cases no. If you By violence I don't mean verbal violence- ! mean relative to t he general society. had also been rising leave out age when com paring groups sometimes it sabbotage, bloodshed and d ynamite. And it was only prior to the civil rights revolution and at a rate no makes a big diffe rence-:- sometimes it doesn't. Age is a fter the crushing of o ne of these strikes that the lower than that after the civil rights revolution. o nly one of many factors which enter into it. What I politica l backlash brought the Nationalist Party into have tried to do is show the lack of validity in the power which then used the government apperatus to underlying premise of much social thinking which stop the rise of blacks and disposcssed blacks from C R : What do you think is the cause of disadvantaged occupations they had already achieved. So racism may blacks falling behind comparable whites? proceeds from the assumption t hat groups would be randomly distributed or evenly distributed in the be absolutely virulent, as in South Africa. without S O WELL: One big reason, I think. is businesses have absence of institutional d iscrimination. Age is one of being able to stop the rise of minorities through the learned that if they hire an uncredentialed black who many factors which makes that virtually impossible. market place. In fact I think South Africa is the acid ends up not performing well. there is a good chance test to the proposition that racism will stop minority that they will get into trouble with the Equal CR : Well, can the government do anything to help advancement. It never stopped minority advancement Employment Opportunity Commission. if they fire minorities? until it took the political form of government that person. Whereas they would have no such problems intervention which then did stop minority SOWELL: Oh. certainly. There are a lot of areas if they hire a comparable white worker. advancement. where the government is so heavily involved that just CR: Well.