Thomas Sowell Review

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L Californi·a Review Inte] Shattering Myths: The Eco

Dr. Thomas Sowell s studies ofthe economic perfor­ CR : Do you think tuition tax credits or a voucher SOWELL: I saw some data just recently about women mance of ethnic groups have won him high acclaim. system would help the poor? in the same occupations working full-time. You see, He so eloquently smashes the false premises behind women don't work as many hours a year and do not much popular thinking that his answers during a 1981 SOWELL: I think that any form of greater parental work as many continuous years as do men. When you edition of" Meet the Pres~ "prompted a producer in the choice would be a great improvement in education. control for all these things you tind that this great gap control room to comment, "You know, this is the first Where the parents have some input as, for example in is no longer there. You don't even have to control for time the guest has moderated the show." the Headstart program, they tend to produce better all of them. If you just count women who have never educational results than the public school system. In married and compare them to men who have never Born in North Carolina, Dr. Sowell later moved to fact, I would argue that you would be hard pressed to rna rried, for the whole range of ages from 25 to 54, you Harlem, where he grew up in the 1930s and 1940s. find any alternative means of education that does not find that women in that category earn 91 % of what After dropping out of high school, he served with the produce better results. Even the U.S. Army has taken men earn. You haven't even looked at differences in Marines during the Korean War. Using the G. I. Bill, people who are functionally illiterate and in a relatively education or occupation and you haven't even Dr. Sowell went on to earn degrees at Harvard (where short period of the time improved their performance. completely taken into account the fact that some he graduated magna cum laude in 1958), Columbia women are mothers because even though we're talking University, and obtained his Ph. D. in &onomics at CR: Do you think racism is the cause of income about women who have never married, the rise in differences between blacks, Hi ~ panics, and whites? the University of Chicago in 1968. Starting in 1970 he unwed motherhood means that there are still some taught economics at U. C. L.A., where he stayed until women in that group who have children. Bearing becoming a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution at SOWELL: No. For one thing, racism has existed in too many places at too many periods of history for it to children and raising children is also a handicap to Stanford University in September of 1980. Thomas earnings. Sowell is the author of many books including explain much of anything. Unless you're prepared to Knowledge and Decisions, Markets ·and Minorities, take the racism out to such lengths as slavery or CR: Why are free market economies less compatible Ethnic America, and most recently, The Economics of genocide, my studies in race and economics around the with ra cism and sexism than state controlled or non­ Politics and Race: An International Perspective. Dr. world does not suggest to me that that is a factor. For competitive economies? example, blacks have a higher unemployment rate Sowell graciously took time to talk with CR 's Optimo SOWELL: They're equally compatible with racism. Princeps, C. Brandon Crocker, for this interview. than whites today. If you go back prior to 1940 or 1930 you'll find that blacks had lower unemployment rates They're not equally compatible with giving that racism than whites and higher rates , of labor force full reign in the form of discrimination. South Africa, participation. You can't argue that there was less before the government became massively involved in the economy, let's say in the early 20th century, was, CR: Have the affirmative action programs of the past racism then. ~~~~~ 20 years helped minorities? CR: Then what factors do you think account for the H differences in incomes? What I have.. tried to do is SOWELL: Well, affirmattve action isn't 20 years old. I guess I would date affirmative action to about SOWELL: I look at it very differently. Everywhere show the lack of validity in December 1971 because that's when you get numerical that I've looked in the world I find disparities among goals and timetables. Over that period of time, disad­ groups, regardless of who has the political power. the underlying p remise of vantaged blacks for example. have fallen further Sometimes those with the political power have lower behind compa rable whites while the more well off in comes. sometimes th ey have higher incomes. It much social thinking which blacks. with more educati on and job experi ence have doesn't seem to make much difference. It's a question moved up relative to whites. So it's a very mixed of ~ kill ~. For example·. you finrl G e rm a n ~ .lc " '' proceeds fron1 thP ns~11rnn- ricture 'frnm'thlt r'iinint n f llit" ..l lf """ ' "~ ' ' .• • :, ... ~ behind ,compara ble whites while the more well ott incomes, sometimes they have higher incomes. It ''"""""""" '" ...., '-' ...... - ...... · o blacks. with mo re educati o n a nd job experience have doesn't seem to make much difference. It's a questi o n 1United States making ~~ way I think it should be looked at- loo king at the mo re than, say, blacks or Hispa nics. Well you'll find ·tion that groups would be -· trends tha t existed beforeha nd a nd comparing that the very same thing in Latin America. That is you'll with the t rends that exist a fterwa rds- what's happened fi nd Chinese ma king m ore than Hispa nics in Hispa nic evenly distributed in the a fterwards is no m ore than the continuation of trends countries. You'll find Jews ma king more than Hispanics tha t go back lo ng before affirma tive acti o n o·r the civil in Hispanic countries. You 'll find the Chinese making absence ofinstitutional dis­ rights movement. T he number of blacks in high level mo re tha n blacks in a black run country li ke Ja maica. posit ions had been increasing a nd the ra te has not .So. I'm not sure that answers your question. crimination. " accelerated in the slightest since the existence of ~~~~~~~~~ affi rma tive action. The same is true of Mexican­ C R: Have you found differences in age to account for I'm sure, just as racist as it is today. But, nevertheless, Americans. Puerto Ricans, a nd Asians. Asia ns had much? blacks were rising up the occupational ladder- so over-taken whites in income five years before the civi l much so that there were violent out bursts by uni o ns. rights act of 1964. Mexican-Americans' incomes, SOWELL: In some cases yes, in some cases no. If you By violence I don't mean verbal violence- ! mean relative to t he general society. had also been rising leave out age when com paring groups sometimes it sabbotage, bloodshed and d ynamite. And it was only prior to the civil rights revolution and at a rate no makes a big diffe rence-:- sometimes it doesn't. Age is a fter the crushing of o ne of these strikes that the lower than that after the civil rights revolution. o nly one of many factors which enter into it. What I politica l backlash brought the Nationalist Party into have tried to do is show the lack of validity in the power which then used the government apperatus to underlying premise of much social thinking which stop the rise of blacks and disposcssed blacks from C R : What do you think is the cause of disadvantaged occupations they had already achieved. So racism may blacks falling behind comparable whites? proceeds from the assumption t hat groups would be randomly distributed or evenly distributed in the be absolutely virulent, as in South Africa. without S O WELL: One big reason, I think. is businesses have absence of institutional d iscrimination. Age is one of being able to stop the rise of minorities through the learned that if they hire an uncredentialed black who many factors which makes that virtually impossible. market place. In fact I think South Africa is the acid ends up not performing well. there is a good chance test to the proposition that racism will stop minority that they will get into trouble with the Equal CR : Well, can the government do anything to help advancement. It never stopped minority advancement Employment Opportunity Commission. if they fire minorities? until it took the political form of government that person. Whereas they would have no such problems intervention which then did stop minority SOWELL: Oh. certainly. There are a lot of areas if they hire a comparable white worker. advancement. where the government is so heavily involved that just CR: Well. how is it that minorities can advance in a ending their involvement would help. If they can't end market economy even when racism exists? C R : Well how do you account for the tremendous their involvement. as in the case of education. if they difference in black and whi te unemployment rates? would only reduce the degree of bureaucratic control S OWELL: I think the example of South Africa. not so that exists. That is, to a ll ow parents. even in the public much answers that question, as shows the school system. to choose where their children are S O WELL: I would account for it with two things. One inappropriateness of the question. South Africa shows going to go to school. That would have an enormous thing. certainly. would be the minimum wage law. As that even in the most racist society minorities advance­ impact. Not simply because the parents would make you increase the price of labor. just like anything else. unless the government intervenes. And the government better choices. but because the whole school system you tend to lower the quantity sold. For that labor was forced to intervene for that very reason. Even in would know that it no longer had a monopoly of a which is most over-priced the effect is most devastating. the United States. in the South during the Jim Crow t:aptivc audience. The whole attitude with which That's been true in other countries where there isn 't a era. you must remember that the Jim Crow era was the parents arc treated would have to be totally different. racial division evident in the statistics. but where era of Jim Crow !all's. So. even in the South it was /\nd that's especially true of low income minority teenagers typically suffer more unemployment when understood that you couldn't keep blacks "in their areas where the parents are often treated like dirt. there is no teenage differential than when there is. place" in a competitive ma rket economy. which is why What they think and what they want really means Look at countries in Western Europe. for example. these laws became pervasive throughout the South. nothing. The other thing that occurs to me is that the educational CR: Has organized labor helped black Americans? system. I think. has been getting much worse in the CR: Why do women tend to earn less than their male ghettos than what it was even when I was growing up. counterparts? SOWELL: I'm sure there arc a few isolated examples So the government is doing two things: it is delivering where you would find that. By in large. of course. they a poorer quality of education and at the same time SOWELL: They work less. tend to have the opposite effect. On the one hand. they. saying that employers can only hire people insofar as themselves ha\·c engaged in enormous amounts of their labor is worth a given amount of money. C R : What if they're in the same occupation'? discrimination. And again. I don't want to confine this - ..

~- F~~E~ry-::-Cal i f()r_nia_~<:_~iew- Page 9 ~ . · ~ . ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• • •••• ••• ••••••••••••••••••••••• •• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• views• Thomas Sowell Jmics and Politics of Race

·just to blacks. I don't write just about blacks. I write Is a general malaise or suspicion of the society based on CR: What do you think of Jesse Jackson running for about ethnic groups in general. But if you look · history, and especially a suspicion of conservatives, president? · throughout the world, jn most countries labor unions ~~~~ SOWELL: I think it will be beneficial to Jesse have used discrimination. In Canada, for example, the Jackson. It might be beneifical to Ronald Reagan. But Canadian labor unior!s kept· out the Japanese. In I'm not sure that anybody else is 'going to benefit. South Africa they, of course, kept out both the blacks uEven in the South it was and coloreds. Throughout most of the world that's the CR: Would you consider running for high political role they have to play if they're going to be labor understood that you office? unions. They also, by artificially raising the price of labor, make discrimination cheaper for employers as couldn't keep blacks 'in their SOWELL: No. N<;>r for low political offfice. well. If you have wages set above the market level, you CR: Do you have any new books coming out? will tend to have a surplus of applicants which makes it place' in a competitive easier for people who want to discriminate to discrim­ SOWELL: Yes. The Economics and Politics of Race: inate. market economy. An International Perspective. It's an attempt to look at racial and ethnic problems in the economy in a ~~~~~ CR: Do you believe that welfare programs such as Aid variety of countries around the world and at different to Families with Dependent Children have contributed there I think they do. But I think this is a function to periods of history. It enables you to test ma ny theories to the break-up of black families and the rise in black some extent of circumstances such as conservatives against a much wider range of evidence. I think that illegitimacy that has taken place over the last 20 years? discrediting themselves during the era of the civil the wider the range of evidence you look at, the less SOWELL: I would say that they have tended in that rights movement and being grossly insensitive even you are likely to believe the prevailing cliches that pass direction. But the way the question is phrased concerns when they were following direct policies. for social thinking in the United States today. me a little bit. It is not merely the fact that it is a welfare program. A welfare program, for example to subsidize dairy farmers, does not require the dairy farmers to engage in counter-productive activities in order to get the subsidy. They get the subsidy on top of whatever else they get. The way the programs are organized, poor people are only paid to do things that are counter-productive- such as breaking up their families, such as not earning above a certain level of income. A dairy farmer can make a fortune and still get the subsidy. Someone on welfare who makes any money losses out. So it's the way the thing is structured. It 's not really the illegitimacy aspect- the legal status of the children- that's crucial. What's crucial is that you have a lot of teenaged, uneducated girls, who are not yet mature themselves, trying to raise children. When you have children trying to raise children, the results "'··~~ I ! f1 ,. •., 11 j,,, , (• t ,.,.., , t (" l have a Lot of teenaged, uneducated girls, who a rc not l, yet mature themselves, trying to raise children. When yo u have children trying to raise children, the results a re often disastro us. • · · · ~~- CR: If past affirma tive action a nd welfa re policies have hurt minorities, why does the black leadership argue for their expansion? SOWELL: They help the black leadership. They a re, first of a ll , earma rked benefits. Secondly, the black leadership co mes from the mo re fortunate members of t he black community, who either administer these progra ms. o r get political credit for ha ving created these progra ms o r who themselves benefit, as these progra ms do, in fact. tend to benefit the more fortunate at the expense of the less fortunate. ~~~~~~~~ ·u/f you have wages set above the market level, y ou will tend to have a surplus of applicants which makes it easier for people who want to discriminate to discrim­ inate. " ~~~~~~«>-«>-~~~~ · CR: What do you think of the accusations tha t the policies of the Reagan Administration are anti-poor and a nti-black? SO WELL: Like a ny kind of sweeping statement it has very li ttle behind it in terms of thought. Do n't forget that these accustations were made before there was a ;~ · Reagan Ad ministration- ri ght after the 1980 electio n. So I think the politica,l motivati o n is fa irly o bvio us. CR: Docs the so-called bl ack leadership represent the views of blacks'? S OWELL: On some questions. yes. On some q uesti o ns, no. On those q uesti o ns where blacks have direct persona l experience such as crime- being victims of crime- the leadership. whi ch is typicall y fo r a ve ry soft policy towards crimina ls a nd a restrictive policy on po lice. d ocs not represent the thinking of the black communi ty. On such things as even busing a nd affirmative acti o n. where b la cks have directly experienced some of the consc4uc nccs. the leadership d ocs no t speak for blacks. On other issues where there