Interview No. 507

University of Texas at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP

Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History

8-8-1978

Interview no. 507

Bishop Emeritus Sidney M. Metzger

Follow this and additional works at: https://scholarworks.utep.edu/interviews

Part of the Oral History Commons, and the Social and Behavioral Sciences Commons

Recommended Citation Interview with Bishop Emeritus Sidney M. Metzger by Oscar J. Martinez, Anne Reidmiller, and Sarah E. John, 1978, "Interview no. 507," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.

This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at ScholarWorks@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of ScholarWorks@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected]. IJNIVERSITYOF TEXAS AT EL P,qSO

Ii\STITIJTEOF OML I{ISTORY

IiITEiiVIEIIEE: Bishop Emeritus Sidne.yM. MetZ-ter (.|902- )

Ii.iTERVIEIIER: OscarJ. Mart AnneRei PRCJECT:

}ATEOF II{TERVIEi{: AuqustB. 1978 TERYISOF USE: Unrestricted

TAPEiIIO. : 507 TRANSCRIPTI'IO. : 507 TMNSCRIBER: Irene D. Ramirez .l982 DATETRANSCRISED: Januar.yll,

BIOGMPHICALSYNCPSIS OF I}ITERVIEI{EE: (Bishopof El Paso,1942-1978) .|902 Born'in in Fredericksburg,Texas; studied at St. John'sSeminary'in San Antonio,Texas, and the NorthAmerjcan College in Rome,uhere he wasordajned in 1926. /pee biographicalsketch following transcript../

SUl4tIARY0F IIITERVIEI,J: jnterested'in priesthood; studies and ex- Biographicaldata; howhe .|920s; became the periencesjn priest SanAntonio, Texas, .l920sRome .l930s;in the experiencesas a in in the and experiencesas Asst. Bishopin Santa Fe, NewMex"ico in jssues from l94l;.l950s experiences .|970sas Bishop of E1 Paso, including Wl,rllIera, labor the to the (especially the FarahStrike), the lack of financial resources; the Churchand MexicanAmericans (including acquiring vocations for the priesthood); Oiscrimjnation; the ChicanoMovement; illegal aliens; the or- ganizationof the Catholic laity in E1 Paso; the CharismaticMovement in the Catholic Church;the Equal Riqhts Amendment;abortion; ordinatjon of womento the priesthood; contraception;Black Catholjcs in El Paso; integration. **Also includedare a biographical sketch, newspaperartjcles, and notes concern- '.+' Metzqer. Llfftt?.i t ^U?iiE?;? I /? horrrq Lengthof Transcript: ot Fages B'ishopEmer jtus Sidney.ll. lt'letzger by OscarJ- Martinez, AnneReidmiller. and SarahE. John August8, 1978

AR: First of all, Reverend,I wantedto begin with backgroundinformation about

your life--where you were born, on the day, your parents.

Sl4: t,rle11,a1'l the bjographiesgive that. Fredericksburg,Texas, and on July the

llth, 1902. You knowwhere Fredericksburg is?

AR: Yes, but why don't you tell us about wherejt's located?

SM: l,'Jell,fine. It's an old Gernancolony that stated in 1846. Andmy grand-

father camethere from my father's side during that year whenthe colony

was founded. They camefrom the Rhine country in Gerrnany,not far from

Koblenz,and they were stone masons. Thjs is quite an interesting colony.

And so they a1l settled there. It was a colony that had peopleof al1 faiths,

andthey,had the trades and professions and everyth'ingvery thoroughly organ-

ized. A,ndthe person whowas the headof it was a Germannobleman named

Freiherr VonMeusebach. Freiherr, of course, means...'it's a title of nobility.

Andone of the very first things he djd wasmake peace with the Indians. The ComancheIndians were in all thoseplaces. So that is the background.It has remainedrather Germanto this day. If you go from here down/fo7 Austin, you can drive throughthere. It stjll hasthe atmosphereof the old days quite a bit. It's a very pretty town. I've beenthrough there.

Andalso from mymother's side, the sarne. t{y grandfathercame from Germany, so they wereold.tirners there. Andmy father hada farm and retired then. 'little Rea11y,I spentvery t'imein Fredericksburg.I wentthrough the grade schoolsand St. l4ary's,the parochialschool there. It's quite a parish, a

Catholicparish, St. l'1ary'sParish. Andthen I wentto whatwe call the high

school seminarywhere /you wentl if you were boys that were thinking of becoming liletzger

a priest and so on. That was in St. John's seminaryin SanAnton'io.

AR: Andyou went there at an early age" didn't you?

SM: I was about 13 whenI went. Yes, I had'fjnished, I guess, fiV grade school

a little bit aheadof time or something. And so I thought that I'd like iust

to fjnd out if I wantedto be a priest. I went downthere and I really did

want to be a priest becauseI very muchloved the Mass, and I thought this

js what I wanted to do. So then I stayed that way and I went to San Antonio

to semjnarythere for sevenyears. And then I went on to Rome.

AR: I wantedto ask you, whenwas the first time that you seriously considered

becominga priest? Wasit whenyou went to St. John's?

SM: Yeah,we]1, it waswhen I wasservinq Nlass. In other words,'it was,as I wouldsay, the sacrednessof the Massthat really attractedme. AR: Yourfam'i1y was Cathol ic. sr.t:Yeah,that's right.

01,1: Wasthere anyoneelse jn your family whohad becomea priest?

SM: No, nobody.

0tvl: Wasyour family very Cathol'ic,very actjve?

SM: All very Catholic. 0h, yeah, very active. 0hnyes' they were. But nobody ever told meto becomea priest.

Soyou r parentsd'idn' t i nfI uence-vou . No. Absolutelynot. Nordid anyone...oh,when I told themthat I wouldbe, they sa'idthat it wasvery good. But no onehas said, "Youshould not," or

"Youshou1d," one way or the other. I did all this myself. Andso the pastor wasa goodman, he wasa wonderfulexample. He was an elderly priest, also fromGermany. That was rather inspiring to me. Andso that's the way. I wantedto ask you aboutthe foundingof that townin 1846. l,rlasthat during Metzger

the time of the Mexicanl,,lar, or was it before?

SM: Thatwas before the Mexicanl,rlar. I think the l{exicantllar, rea'lly, it didn't

last very 1ong. It wasover in 1848.

0M: 1847, really. Theysigned the treaty in 1848. SI,i: It really had nothingto do wjth the l4exicanl^lar. Thepeople left Germany especiallyat that time becausethere wasa lot of unrestover there. And someof themdidn't wantto servein the Pruss'ianarmy,.You know--that type of thing. 0f courseat that time Germanywas not united. Youhad all kinds of provincesand so on. That'swhy a lot of themleft. AR: Werethere manyMexican people who settled in Fredericksburg? SM: No, not at that tjme. There'renot very manypeople in Frederjoksburgnow, as far as I know. I rememberthere wasa little parish that wasstarted when

I wasa child. But as I say, I left, you see. I wasoff to schoolall my life. So I can't give youall thosedetails. But I do remember,yes, there

wasa... By the way,we did havea priest fromMexico. Let mesee, his name wasFather Galarza, a very lovely man. Hecame over from the persecutions and he cameup to Fredericksburg.And I knowthey had the chapeland all

thesethings, andhe usedto say the massfor themand so on. Nowthat goes backquite a long way. But jt wasrather a smal'lgroup. 0M: Howfar backare we talking about,with thjs priest doing that? .l9.|5, SM: About...oh,must go backto around as far as I remember. 014: So there wasa small colonyof l'{exicanpeople. Slr'l:0h, yes, it wasat that time apparently. I think they werepeople that worked probablyon the ranchesand things. But they hadmass in town, AndI know that FatherGalarza, his nameI remembervery well. And he wasa very, very fine person. I think later on he passedaway then. So I don't knowmuch Metzger

aboutthat history. After that I 1eft, of course. AndI don't knoweven

right nowwhether they still havea Mexicanparish there or a missionor not.

I'm not sure. But I can look that up, seewhat's'in the Catholjcdirectory, if there's a missionthere that wouldbe it. 0M: There'sonly onechurch.

SM: [".il, St. Mary'S,which is the old parish. If you go there todayyou will see there are actually two churches. There'sthe old church,which was built by the oldtimers. I'm suremy grandfather and those people who were builders, they helpedto do that. Whichby the wayhas beenconsidered quite a monument of archjtecture,and they're trying to preserve'it now. Andthen the other, .|900s. the newchurch, was bu'ilt somewherein the early I guessI wasbap- tjzed still 'in the old church. Thenwhen I wasvery small I rememberthat

they built the newSt. Mary'sChurch, as wecall it, andthat's nowthe parish

church. Theold oneis just stand'ingthere. AR: Doyou go backvery often? Haveyou beenback to Fredericksburg?

Si,l: 0h, yes, I go backfor a l'ittle while. Myfamily are practically all...of course, remember,in rnyown irnrnedjate family, my parentsare gonea long time

ago. I still have,however, some /relativet. I hada nephewl iving there whopassed away, and lots of other relatives. Youhave to know,in these .|846. colonies,they started from thesefewold-timers who came in Thename Metzgeris very well known.I don't knowhow many there are now. Youcan see howthat spreadout over this time. Eventoday, this youngfellow who

./p1aye!/shortstop for the HoustonAstros (he's nowwith the SanFrancisco Giants), RogerMetzger, if you remember,he comesfrom that town, the whole fami1 y.

0h, 'is that right? He's from your family? Metzger

SM: Yeah- But I don't know,I havenever traced all the distant relationships.

But he's from Fredericksburg.And if he's fromthat clan, that meansthat's

whatit is. AR: Did you all sharea love of baseball? SM: Yes, I like baseballvery much. But I, of course,I don't knowthis boyreal'ly. I only heardabout him when he wasgoing down to St. Edward'sCollege some years ago. That's wherehe went, to St. Edward'sUniversity. Andsomebody

told me, they said, "Gee,he's a crackerjackshortstop. Probablygo into pro- fessjonalball." Andhe did. Andhe's a very fine shortstop. Hits lightly' though. His battjng averageis not very heavy. But for playingshort they

say he's absolutelytops. I've listened to the Gameof the Week/'progradT here, and I've heardthe announcerstell that, you know. Theysize up the

balI p'layers.

l{ell, now,that's howthe whole clan originally /b.gu.f, Starting in 1846,now that's a hundredand some years. Soyou see, we havespread out. Andso I go back; and however,the many,many people whom I do not knowanymore, some of'em are qu'iteclosely related to me. But I havebeen away. I don't spend

mucht'ime ./_ther{ . I go there maybefor a weekor so and I go out to where mynephew lived. Hehas this l'ittle ranchnot far fromHarper, and I go out there andstay awhileto get somefresh air. AndI'll go arounda bit and then I'll leaveagain. I'm not involved'inany local affairs or anythingof that kind. AR: Therewere five ch'ildrenin your family, is that correct? SM: That's right, yeah. 'living AR: Are they a1.1 still ? Sl4: No, they're all goneexcept one. F1ybrother ljves in SanAntonio, he still Metzger

lives in SanAntonio. I havea nephewstays there with him. He has two boys.

Oneof the childneddied andthey hadtwo boys. Oneof themis oneof the

librarians at SAC. Youknow what SAC is? SanAntonio College. That's quite a big place. I guessthere's about20,000 students there. So I also go there andvisit him. That's aboutjt. But as far as backgroundis concerned, the wholearea, I'm quite familjar with it, and I love it very much. I think it's very 1ove1y. I rather like the h'ills; they havevery nice, gracefullines. It's rather quite nice. Andit kind of remindsme of a lot of things that go throughmy mind. AR: Whydon't you te'I1 us aboutsome of your childhoodexperiences? SM: l,.lel1,rea'l'ly, I don't know. Therewere not any outstandingchildhood experi-

ences,except I guessthat I did whatchildren d'id in thosedays. Remember, the world wasrather a quiet placeat that time. I^led'idn't haveanything

that we havenow. Wecouldn't think of anything. Welived accordingto the,

we1'l, the customsand the facjlitjes of the time. AndI rea'l'lywouldn't point to anyth'ingthat wasa terrible, outstandingexperience that hadstruck me.

I simplywent throught the seminaryand thought that this is what I wantedto do. I was, however,guite happywhen I wasselected to pursuemy studiesover in Rome.I d'idn't expectthat. AR: Andhow were you selected? SM: Well, on scholarship,rea11y. Plus other things. But they go on that, they go alongthat. It's a generalthing. Theysize up all the, I guess,facets of one's characterand see whether you're goodmaterial or not for that. So then I spentsix years in Rome.

Howold wereyou whenyou went to Rome?

Let's see, I wentthere in '22. I was just about 20 whenI went to Rome,and Metzger

then stayedthere for s'ix years. It wasin 1922. Incidental'ly,the year that

I got to Romewas the time that trrlussolini started. Mussolinihad just made

his marchon Rome,if you'veread backhistory on that. Andwe were in the NorthAmerican Co'l1ege, whjch is a seminaryfor the UnitedStates, students from the UnitedStates whowant to preparefor the priesthoodjn Rome.So they're Americanboys, you see. Andwhen we got there that time, the American ambassadortold the rector not to let the boysgo out on the street. Wewere insjde for a wholemonth because they wereriot'ing out in the streets and so on. Thatwas Mussolini's march on Rome.And the first real walk that we took in Rome1aas on a Sunday,and Mussol'inihad captured Rome. And he had all of h'is Fasc'isti,the fascjsts wereall there andthey lookedlike a pretty toughoutfit. Theyfelt l'ike they hadsort of conqueredit. Thatwas the beginn'ing of f ascj smi n 1922.

014: Wereyou afraid? SM: No. t,'Jedidn't think they couldharm us very much. Theyreally didn't. No. 'em, If you left themalone... Now,I wouldn'tdo anythingto provoke of

course. Theycould be pretty roughon you. But I lived in Romethem for s'ix years, andMussol'in'i had by that tjme kind of settled down. Mussoljn'i was really in manyrespects a very, very remarkableperson. I personallythink that if he'd nevergot mixedup with Hitler he would'vedone pretty well. jni But then also in his ownlife he got to be very inmoraland so on. llussol neverwas a...he wasa Catholic,of course,but he hadbeen a Communist,you

know,and was kicked out of Ita1y. Andthen whenall thosepost-war difficul- ties aroseafter the First WorldWar, he cameback. Hefought the Communists' andthat's howhe foundedthe Fasc'istParty. Hewent to the other extreme. But as far as his faith wasconcerned, the Church,it didn't meananyth'ing Metzger

to him. Not a thing. He did want to go downin history, he was very ambitious

as a statesman. And one of the great th'ings that he was always working for was

to makepeace betweenthe governmentof Italy and the Vatican. /_lf yolu go back into the history, there were the PapalStates'in Italy at one time. And

of coursewhen the king of Italy and all that came,and Garibaldi, they took

all those away. And so then the Popewas simply in St. Peter's and just that

little Vatjcan area there, what we call the Vatican. And he was rea'|1y, tech-

nically, a prisoner from that civil viewpoint. And so later they wantedto

adjust that, and in 1929 I believe it was they finally drew up what they call

the Lateran Treaty. And so that set up the Vat'icanstate that you have today. AndMussolini did all that. But getting on to myself, I don't think there wasanyth'ing tremendously

eventfulor earthshaking'in myyouth. Wewere boys, seminarians and so on. 'long And we had a pretty goodba1 I team. I playedshortstop myself for a t'ime. So that's the waythi ngswent. Andthen of coursewhen I wentback,

whenI cameand went to Rome'in 1926,Iwasordained a priest. AR: I wantedto ask you, did you date whileyou weregoing to school? SM: Very1 ittl e.

AR: So you djdn't havethe type of social ljfe that the averageteenager had?

SM: No. Rea11y,I did what I wantedto. It wasn't that I wasdeprived of anything.

I could do anything I wantedas far as that wasconcerned.I hadall the social

I ife I wanted,in that respect. Yes.

Howdid you spendyour time in Rome? Well, mostlyin school. However,wehad vacations and we hada villa up near CarstelGandolfo that you readabout these days,where the Pope'ssummer place js. It wasnot occupiedin thosedays, but there wasa villa that they had Metzger

boughtfor the students. Romegets very warmin the summertime,and that's

why the peoplego out for two monthsand so on. They go whereit's a little

cooler. So, otherwiseduring the year, that's about it. Wewent to school

and had quite a heavyschedule. 0h, we had our, of course, holidays here

and there, but that wasa bit. And then during the summerwe usual'lycould

travel for about three weeks. Thenwe had to comeback, and we even had a

program,a life study program,during the summer. So you seer we had our

nose to the grindstone.

OM: Youcould travel independently? sl'l: 0h, yes. Yeah,we studentsusually together...several of us got together as

a rule. And in those days travel wasn't very expensiveunless you wantedto

travel in luxury, but we d'idn't care about that. Weused to travel in third

class trains and in all of that. I got to knowItaly very well that way.

I knowItaly almost from top to...from the top downto the boot.

Did you learn to speakItalian?

0h, yes. 0h,.y€S, I learned to speakItalian, so muchso that... You didn't

read it in the paper, but they askedne /li| Sunday's. hJhat'shjs name?

Craig Phelon? He cameup here to ask about PopePaul and so on, whomI

rea11ydjdn't knowvery we11. But I had a private audjencew'ith PopeJohn

'in 1959. And in those days we a1'l had to go in for a private audience. And

so the personwho arranged the audiencesaid to me, "'rde11,you speakItalian

well enough,why don't you speakjn Italjan to PopeJohn?" He said, "You'll

catch his personality only if you can do that." And he said, "You speakit

well enough." I was rather frightenedrof course; I'd forgotten so much.

And I said, "All right, I'll do it." So I went back to my hotel and I got

myself a little Italian d'ictionary and k'indof pagedthe words, You know. Metzger l0

And so the audiencecame two days soonerthan I expected. But I went'in

and talked to him. And he said, 'rl,tlell,if you speakIta1ian'like this, you

must've spent a lot of time here." And I said, "Well, I did. S'ix years."

Thenwe talked about a lot of things in Rome.

And then the humorouspart of that audience rea'l1yvrasthat, you know,

PopeJohn, it was always knownthat he was trying to study English, learn

English. }Jell, he never got a speakingknow'ledge of English. He wasone

of those peoplethat could read a language,but he spoke'it atrociously,

rea11y. And we had a ceremonialat the North AmericanCollege in 1959,

the centennial of that seminary,and PopeJohn cameup, presjdedand so on.

And then he gave first a 1ong, formal talk. He couldn't stand any formal

things at all, but th.is was the protocol that you had to submjt to. And

finally he picked up a few papersand he started saying a few words in

English, and they were very bad. So, what does he do whenI was in the

audiencethere? He suddenlythrew a question at me. He said, "Andwhat

did you thjnk of my English, son?" We11,I had to think very fast on that

one. Nowof course, PopeJohn knewthat his English was lousy, he must've

knownthat. He just didn't care about that. But I had had too muchrespect

for the Ho'lyFather to tell him, "Well, your English is atrociousr" you know.

So all I sajd to him, and this was jn Ital'ian, I said, "Well, Holy Father,

rea11y, the wholeworld admiresyour courage

(Chuckles) That was in the paper. I read t e articl e.

WhenI told him the story he was so amused,raig was, and he said, "Maybe

I'II put that in." I said, "AlI right."

So, yes, I learned Italian. In fact, wewere just youngpriests

we used to go out in the outskirts of Rome e there are what they ca1'l Metzger t1

the Roman.qzugg_[g-.That's the area there. That's wherea lot of the farms are and little missionsand so on. AndI usedto go with anotherstudent

whowas a studentin CanonLaw, and he wasa Vietnamese.He was from Indo- china, as they called it in thosedays. So I wasfrom Texas, all the way formTexas, and he wasfrom Indochjna,and we were going to theselittle missionsout there sayingmass for the Italians. (Laughter) Yeah. Thenof courseI cameback. I got my doctoratein Theologyand CanonLaw in Rome,in thosesix years. AndI wastold to teachin St. John's Seminaryin SanAntonio, which I did. Thatdoesn't exist anymorenow. The

bishopshave changed some of it. 0M: Whatyear wasthis?

SM: Thatwas...I cameback in 1928. 0M: Wereyou g'ladto be sent so close to home?Did you havea choiceof where

you would go? SM: No, I cameback to a djocese. See,when you're ordainedfor a diocese,that means...forinstance,when the bishopordains priests herefor the diocese, that meansthey belongto this diocese. 0h, so they return whenthey're throughwith the'ir studies. Yeah,that's right. So i wasonly return'ingto the dioceseto whichI belonged. Andtherefore there I could be sent to anypiace'inthe diocese,wherever the archbishopwanted to sendme. But he thoughtI oughtto stay in the seminary. Andhow long wereat the seminaryteaching? I wasthere till 1940,and then I wasmade a bishop. Also I wasconnected with St. Mary'sUniversity Law School. Yes, I havehere that you weregovernor of St. ltlary'sLaw School . Regent. Metzger 12

AR: Regent? SM: Yeah,they ca'lI i t that. .l935 .|940. AR: For five years, to SM: Yeah,I guessthat's aboutit. That wasa very interestjngexperience. It real1ydidn't requiremuch work. i've alwaystold themI wasonly wirrdow dressing,rea11y. (Chuckles)But as regentof the law school,I think they did it becauseI hada doctoratein CanonLaw and probably thought it would give it a little prest'igesince it wasalso underthe Societyof Mary,the Brothersof Maryand all that. And,well, I'm not a civil lawyer. If I hadgone into civ'il 1ife, that's whatI would'vedone. I probablywould've

studiedcivil tl-au7. I'm very attractedto'it. I don't knowwhat would've happenedto me if that werethe case, but I enjoyedthat very much. I could give a lecture'in the natural ]aw, you know,whjch is real]y ethics. They

still believein the natural law;theydid. So I servedthere, andone of the brothers,the registrar, wasthe onewho djd all the detail workof orga- nizing. Wehad a very fine law schoo'|,made up of SanAntonio lawyers, and

the best. Andthe schoolhas a splendidreputation today. There'ssome lawyers here, I guess,that wentto it. It's a small school,it hasthis advantage. I understandthey havea rigorouscurriculum there. Verymuch so, yes. Theyalways d'id. Thelawyers whom I knew,Ithought they weresplendid people. Reallyfine, devotedmen, professionally. AndGod knows,they didn't get paid very much,you know. It wasreally their own project. Theydid it for the love of the students,they thought. Yousee, it wasa caseof, well, TexasUniversity is close by, but theselarge schools haveso many,many, many, many. Theybecome factories almost. Andthat's why Metzger l3

the lawyerstaught. A'lsothey thoughtit waseasier for the boyswho couldn't

afford to go downto Austin to stay homeand take a law coursethere. It was proper'lyaccredi ted and everything . AR: Werethere manywomen there? SM: Yes. I also lecturedin Psychologyand Ethics in St. Mary's,and that was coedat that tjme. Theywere just beginningaround that time. Theyhad teachersand so on that weretak'ing extra courses. I don't rememberany womenentering the law schoolin thosedays. I think they wereal1 boys. AR: Whatabout Mexican Americans? Were there any MexicanAmericans that were enrolledas law students? SM: 0h, yeah,there'splenty of 'emgot in later as it developed.Yes, oh yes. A numberof 'em.

0M: Doyou rememberany particularly interest'ing'incidentsor anecdotesfrom your days teachingthere? No, I don't knowthat they werereally so interesting. I enjoyedit a great deal. I guessI wasa sort of a curjosity to someof the womenstudents that werethere whenI waslecturinq andall. Whyis that? We11,they werenon-Catholic people who never had a priest as a teacher' I guess. (Chuckles)It wasvery interestingrsomeof the questionsthey asked me. AndI rememberone girl asked...'causewe were tal king aboutthe 'inst'i- tution of marrjageand so on. I d'idmention I guessat the time that not everybodyhas to get married,has a duty to get maried. It's not an obliga- tion. Theremay be other reasonswhy one wouldn't --for instance,if one has a very definite calling, like the priesthoodand do on. So oneof thesegirls

sajd to rne,"Is that the reasonyou djdn't get married?" I told her I djdn't Metzger 14

want to makeany womanunhappy. (Laughter) 0h, yes, that rockedthe house.

ThenI wasvery sorry I said it, becauseshe was terribly embarrassed,Vou know. But sheasked the questionso quickly andshe got a quick response. But they werefine studentsand very fine...someof thoseteachers,

they /werd7teachers in the SanAntonio public schools. Youknow at that tjme the educatjonwas beginning to changea lot, the methodsand so on. Andsome of themwere not very happywith whatwas happening in the schools--methods and textbooksand so on. I guessthey werea little, maybeI wouldsay they weretradi tional i sts i n their way, 'in the ol d-t'imeteachi ng . Theythought they weren't doing too well anymore. I rememberthey usedto tell meall

thosethings. TheBrothers of lr4aryare really very fine teachers. They're

very muchlike the ChristlanBr"others here. Theyare in everysense of the

wordwhat I wouldcall old-fashjonedpedagogues. And they meanbusiness: (Chuckles)The Brothers are very fine andthey havesome very fine scientists andmathematicjans and so on. It wasvery, very well done. It's a small

university, but it's a goodone. Well, anyway,I wentthrough that in SanAntonjo. Also I workedon the mamiagecourt 'in the archdiocese,the matrimonialcourts, if you knowwhat that is. Wehave thoser.vou know, to find out aboutmarriages, whether they shouldbe declarednull whenpeople want them declared null andvoid, invalid.

So I hadquite a lot to do. Then./_1.1 taughtmy classesand I wasbusy, busy, busy,busy. I taughtCanon Law, too. Thenall of a suddenI wastold that I shouldbe auxiliary bishopup in SantaFe. Andthat amazedme, I couldn't believejt. I of coursedidn't knowanything about it until I got a letter from the apostolicdelegate. AndI really wasnot too happyabout it, to be

honest. I hadal'l my friends and all my backgroundand everything/iround l,letzger 15

SanAntonio/; and to go up to SantaFe, NewMexico, which I hadnever seen. I only knewabout it, that there wassuch a p1ace. In other words,tearing

up al1 your roots, this is not easy. I was37 years old at the time. So I hadto go downand seethe archbishopof SanAntonio. I waspermitted to con-

sult him, andwe talked aboutthat. Andhe said, "I'm really...I hate to see you leave." 0f course,he wasplaying right downmy al1ey then. AndI sa'id

to him, "l^lell,that's very good,"I sa'id. "I didn't ask the Popeto be bishop." (Laughs)And then he said to me, "No,youdidn't ask him, but he's askingyou. Thatmakes the difference." (Laughs)So anyway, I told himyes,

I'd go underobedience. And I wentto SantaFe for twoyears. Thatwas a kind of a, I wouldsay, novitiate as it were,to get my feet wet" Andthen of courseI camedown here. Now,during the time that I wasin SanAnton'io I went to schoolwith some boysin the seminary,Mexican boys, andwe studiedsome Spanish and all that

k'indof waythey do it in thoseplaces. So whenI cameto El Pasoth'is was not anythingnew to me.

0lt1: AndSan Antonio has a large Mex'icanAmerican communi ty.

SM: Yes,and I knewa lot of them. I knewa lot of all the priests downin the Cathedral. Nowthey wereSpanish, but they had the Spanishmasses there and all that. Andwe usedto go downto the Cathedralfor all the ceremonies. Sowhen I cameto El Paso,it's nothingnew. 0M: Did you mix in muchwith the MexicanAmerican community of SanAntonio? 'em. SM: Quitea bit, yes. I knewquite a numberof 0M: Howwere conditjons in the MexicanAmerican community thene at that time? SIt'l:0h, they werenot so good. Theywere...they had a lot of problemsthen. And I thjnk, however,that that has improveda lot. I thjnk that wastrue Metzger t6

practically everywherein those days whereyou had a lot of Mexicanpeople.

NowI can tell you this, somethingthat rather shockedme when I was in

the seminaryand later on whenI becamehead of the seminary. There were

paractica'l1yno vocations for the priesthood. And nowthose boys that I

knew, I thought they were surely good; but there was a sort of an idea that,

well, they just didn't havethe backgroundto be priests, if you want to

put it that way. I could never quite understandthat. I th'ink that was

probablya Europeantradition that cameover here. And so that's one of

the reasonswhy vocations for the priesthood amongour Mex'icanpeople are

comparativelyrecent, rea11y. At that time, oh, they didn't think that

they were fitted for that type of vocation. At that tjme.

OM: Whyis that?

Sll: Well, that was the thinking that they had. Theywere wrong, of course.

OM: Whatwas beh'indthat thi nking?

Slr'l: Behindjt was, they said, well, they camefrom families that had no back-

groundand all that type of thing, and they didn't th'ink they were able to

do jt. So whenI camehere...and whenyou're madebishop of a diocese,

that meansthat you have that responsibility. And I thought to myself,

"l,,lell,look, this thing'is entirely wrong. I'm gonnado this the way I

see it." Andwhen I was here in El Paso, Cardjnal M'irandaused to comeup

through here. He was a very good friend of mine, /jhg/- Archbishopof Mex-

ico City. And he said, "ldell, do you haveany Mexicanvocations?" t_t_l said, "Wehave no vocations period." Anybody,rea11y. But he said, "How

are you gonnado that?" "We11r"I said, "I haveno great skills or any-

thing, but I feel that this should be donejust this way. For a diocese to

havevocations to the priesthood, they should comefrom the nat'ive people, Metzger l7

whoeverthey are. Nowif the peoplehere are ltlexicanpeople or whatever

other, they're all the sameand everybody counts the same,and that's jt.

If they be"longto thisd'iocese,there's no d'istinctionmade about anybody

wantingto ever be a priest or anyth'inglike that. /ihere'll/ be none/ot that7 whatsoever."And Cardinal Miranda, he wasthen Archbishop, he said

to me, he said, "Youknow, you're gonnasucceed with that." And I havealways followed that. I have neverbeen in any wayd'is- criminatingagainst anyone. I can honestlysay that. I neverheard any nationality d'iscussedin myown family at home,you know,about dry,,,cast- ing any aspersions. Just neverspoke that way. AndI bel'ievethat a lot

of our discriminationand that feeljng of thoseprejudices, they comesome- timesfrom homeswhere ch'ildren hear those things at home. That's where

jt all starts. Fortunately,I neverhad that. I mjght'vebeen as narrow-

mindedas someother people. Andthen of coursethe educat'ionin Romedoes

somethjngfor you that no other placecan do. Youcan learn from booksany- where,you can go to classesanywhere. But Rome'is probably,from the point

of viewof the Church,the mostcosmopolitan c'ity in the world. Andthis is somethingthat we learn whenwe spendour youth there, as I did mine,

you know. Youlearn that the Church'isuniversal. Andthis questionof

this national'ityor that nationality, the /domparisont,you don't do that. AR: But yet the MexjcanAmericans weren't involvedin the jnstitutjonal Church, eventhough you're sayingthat they wereinternational. SM: 0h, they're all involved. But whatI meanis...you don't get mypoint, I'm afraid. WhatI meanto say is that everybodyjs the samein the Church, whenyou study in Rome.There is no distinction whetheryou're Mexicanor whetheryou're Germanor Irish andthat. TheHoly Fatherrecejves everybody. Metzger IB

OM: Andyou see peoplefrom everywherestudying with you.

SM: Everywhere,everywhere- When I went to the university in Romethere were

48 languagesspoken among the students.

0l,l: But howmany people have that kind of experienceto broadentheir perspective?

SM: I admitthat's true. But that certain'lywas a great thing for me. So I cannotunderstand these things whenI hearthem. I just think jt's absurd.

Andthat's the way/f thought/. So whenI camehere, I had neverhad any prejudiceagainst anybody. I just wasn't broughtup that way, fortunately. So blackor white or yellow or whateverthey were. In fact, whenyou meet

all thosepeople, those different nationalities of the earth, /_fouthin,k/, "Yeah,sure, w€'reall the same. Thereisn't a great deal of differencer" no matterwhat colored skin you might haveor anything. Nowthat's being

cosmopolitanin the goodsense of the word. AndI havetried to follow

that here, that sense. Nobodycan ever say that I haveever discrim'inated against, for i nstance,a lt{exj can Amerjcan person, I dare ' emto . Howwas your experience'inSanta Fe? Did you enjoy it up there? We11,yes. Now,I'm glad you askedthat. I wentto SantaFe, andthis wasquite different fromSan Antonio, of course. Andthere's one thing

aboutthe peoplejn NewMexico, yoU know, especially Santa Fe. Nowthey werenot like our TexasMexican people were. Andwhen I wentup there, the archbishopwho was there, he had beenbishop of Amarillo and so on, and of coursehe knewTexas and he knewSan Antonio. Andhe said to me, "Now, 1ook,"he said, "/y-ou've/been in SanAntonio all this time andwe talk aboutMexican Americans and so on. Don't use that wordup here. Theyare Spanish." So he said, "Get it out of your vocabulary." (Laughs)And I really don't think that there's so manyof'em wereSpanish except those l4etzger l9

few families probablythat cameway back. Godknows there werefew of those.

Therest of the peoplecame from Mex'icoand so on. But somewayor other

they got up to the area there and they wereSpanish, not ltlexicanAmericans. Andso oneday I got a little bit vexedabout somethjng and I told the arch-

b'ishopabout someone. "l,lle11r" I said, "Archbjshop,I'm go'ingto be very glad whenI go backto myMexicans. I don't wantto be aroundyou." (Laughter)

AR: Howwere they different from the MexicanAmericans in SanAnton'io? SM: Well, they werequite provincialfor onething. Theylive up there in those

mountainsand they do have, I guess,some of the backgroundthat /ha.s_.,Ipre- vailed up there. Theywere djfferent'in that respect,andvery, I wouldsay,

u'ltra, ultra clannish. Yeah. I got alongwell with themmyself, but I sure- ly could tell the difference. Andthe approachthat you haveto use up

there is quite different. Nowfor instance,well, I m'ightte11 you the

story. There'sa parish in NewMexico--I won't te11you the name,now-- but thosepeople have all their Spanishnames and so on, but they are New Mexican. A changeof pastors hadto be made there,andthere vvassome

Franciscansthere. Andthe Franciscanssajd, "Well, wecan sendsomebody from the l4exicanprovince." Theyresented that becausehe waslr{exican,

from Mexico. l,,le'l1, you tear yourhair out whenyou see nonsenseI i ke that, you know. But it is a fact, they said so. "Wewant somebody else." Now they wouldtake somebodywith a Spanishname, yes--but not from Mex'ico. Thoseprejudices are there.

I wonderwhy.

We11,I don't knowwhat jt is, but that's the way it is. Somebodysaid.

one gaveone reason; howcorrect thjs reasonis, I don't knowwhat about Metzger 20

But he said, "You know,one of the reasonsis that they have hearda lot

about howthe Churchhas beenpersecuted, for instance, in Mexico,and so

they associate Mexjcowith that." Nowhow objective that is, I don't know.

But the fact is, ii's there. I experienceda1l th'is. And they didn't

really like Texanseither. But I managedto get by. 0h, they don't like

Texansat al I .

0M: No, there's been a rivalry there betweenTexas and Newlolexico.

SM: Wel1,yes. And whenI cameto Santa Fe, someof the older priests were still

French. You knowthey had Frencharchbishops there for a 1ong,long time.

Lem'iwas French. He was the famousArchbishop of Santa Fe, lTheT first one.

And then there followed Frenchand French,and so jt all... And in fact,

the first one whowas not Frenchwas ArchbishopDager, who was a Franc'iscan,

and he died only a few years before I got up there. ArchbishopGurkin was

the archbishopthen, and he was from Texas. But these French,o1d French

priests, knewthe situation very well and they said that one of the reasons

why they didn't like the Texansis becausethey camein and boughtup the

land. Andon the other hand,you know,they said these old-time Spaniards

that cameup here and had all the land, they weren't very provident about

howthey were handling it, and they had to sell. Andyou know,one of them

said, as an exampler"blhy, for instance, doesnrt Santa Fe havea railroad?"

It doesn't. SantaFe Reajlroadis called Santa Fe, but it's about 30 miles

out wherethere's a little station called La'ime. The old-timers didn't wantit. Whynot? It wouldspoil their town, it wouldspoil their wayof life. [.le11,that you find in a lot of places. Youfind that to someextent in El Paso--butI'm Metzqer 21

not gonnatalk aboutthat. WhenI first camehere somebody told me...who is nowlong gone. This manwas rather humorous,I guesshe talked about

certain peoplewho were controlling, I guess,the financesand everything.

Andthis mansaid, "Youknow what they needin this town? About20 good funerals." Now,you find that type of thinking'in practically everycom- munity. It's human.And this manhappened to be an undertaker,and I said,

"Well, that's the wayyou look at jt." (Laughter) 0M: Hewants the business. SM: But that's the way. I love SantaFe very much,I really like it. AndI got alongvery well with the people. WhenI camedown here I was...thefirst

parish I ever hadwas that Cristo Reyparish up there. Wereyou ever in

t]t:: the Kjns Church,the symphonyof mudthey call it? AR: [o-J .|940 SM: Yeah. Thatwas built in to commemoratethe fourth centennialof Coronado'scoming. I camethere jn 1940,and then the archb'ishopmade me the first pastorof that famouschurch, Cristo Rey. AR: This is in SantaFe?

It's called the symphonyof mud,the symphonyin mud. Andins'ide is the famousRaredas that wastaken from the chapelof the Span'ishgovernors. Andit's a magnificientthing, beautiful. I don't knowhow many tons that

weighs,all stone. Probablyit musthave been done by Indians,I think. Andthe date of that wouldbe somethinglike 1769or so. Andthat's the backgroundfor the alter in that church. So that wasthe first time I was a pastor there and I hadvery, very humblepeople. I loved themvery much. Andthat wasmy first job as a parish priest. I hadalways been doing somethinge1se. So muchso that somepeople, when they want to be smart, Metzger 22

they tell me that I've only beena career manin the Church. (Chuckles)

However,well, of course, whenyourre a bishopof a diocese, theretne many

things that's not like being a pastor. Now,of course, I'il free of all

those burdensand all those constant prob'lemsand I don't mjnd doing...I'm

very happyto go downand say masslike a newly ordained priest in some

p1ace.

AR: Whenyou were in Santa Fe, did you ever deal with the Penitenteswhile you

were there?

SM: Yes, I did deal wjth the Penitentesat that t'ime. And rea]1y, I had no

difficulties with them. I was to1d, I was told beforehand;I was briefed,

you know. They said, "Nowthey haveall these exercisesnHoly Weekexercises

and so on. But if you understandthat..." I knowI confirmed, I gave con- firmationsin a lot of thoseplaces l'ike ltloraand all thosewhere they...

that's filled wjth Penitentes. But I neverhad any problemswith'em. And I wasreceived we11, and they werefriendly. Andthen I donrt knowwhat happened,later on somethinghappened. But in the time that Archbishop

Gurkinwas there, i neverheard anything. Andthe Churchdidn't seekto changetheir views? No, the Churchdidn't really seekto changethem. We'|1,there isn't any- thing wrongabout the Penitentes,rea11y, except that they simply...it's a real'istic renewal,as it were,of the passion. Nowsome people don't like that, but there's nothjngmorally wrong about'em. Andas long as they havethe properfaith,and surely they havethe fa'ith in Christ and theyrre all, you know, Hermanosde NuestroSefror, thatrs the wholebas'is of it. I neversaw anything part'icular'ly defective about that. Andthen you

haveto understand,again, the culture. That's extremelyimportant. You Metzger 23

haveto understandthat. Whenyou put yourself in the position of people's culture you're not gonnamake too manymistakes.

NowI wouldn'tmyself be a Penitente. I wouldhardly...itrs not my dispositionor anything. But I can generallyweil see that the waythese peoplehave grown up andeverything, and the tradjtions they've had, whV sure. I wouldn'tcondemnrem for it. But nowif they askedme myself to go throughthe exerciseof the Penitentes,well nowthat I don't think I would do.

AR: Youwere up in SantaFe for a year? SM: Twoyears.

AR: Andthen you camedown El Paso.

SM: AndI camehere and I wasthe co-junior bishop. AR: Andwhen did you comehere? SM: In 1942.

0M: Nowthat wasquite a time here in El Paso,duringWorld War II. SM: Yeah. I washere during World l^lar Ii.

0M: I've donea studyof CiudadJudrez and the ear'ly'40s wasquite an exc'iting tjme downthere. It wasa periodof great growth,and much of that was stimulatedby the presenceof a lot of military here. Andconditions were wide openin C'iudadJudrez for these troops whoused to go downthere to the tourist strip night'ly. Howdid you find the moralatmosphere here when you first amived?

SM: Well, now,that Judrezsituation, of course,it was...it's in anothercoun- try. Andthis hada lot to do with the miljtary and it wastherefore rea11y

morea problemfor...the bishop/o-t the military forcesZcouldtell you a very goodstory aboutthat. But the bishopof the military forces, of Metzger 24

course, hasalways been for manyyears the CardinalArchbishop of l'lewYork.

Andat that time this wasCardinal Spel'lman- And tho ulatn---lotrEeaa, I

camehere in February. Rooseveltdeclared war I think in Decemberof that previousyear. In fact it wasthe feast of the ImmaculateConception. I believeit wasDecember 8th. AndCardinal Spel'lman came here;and he would travel incognitothen. Hewas the military ordinariate,as they call it. Anda lot of thesequestions were discussed. Hestayed up at the Fort Bljss.

But he called meone Sundaymorning and he said, "hlouldyou take meover to Judrez?" I said, "Sure." He's deadnow; i can tell the story. Heloved

to tell everybodythat he wasin everybloomin'country in the world, Vou know;he wasljke that. Veryadventurous in a way. Hesaid, "Youknow, I can't go backto NewYork and say I wasin El Pasoand didn't go over into

Mexico. They'clsayr'l^le11 , what's wrong with you?"' I said, "Fine, Arch- bishop. " Sowe started out andwe walked across the bridgeand all of that. And he wentin andbought,oh, a stockof souveniersfor his nephewsand nieces andall. Andthen he sawthe prophyiaxisstation. Andhe said to me, 'is 'is, "Whatrsthat for, now?" "We11r"I said, "this whatit Archbishop. It's a prophylaxisstat'ion that is, I guess,an institutjon--verymuch needed,

they th'ink." 0h, he wasvery, very disgustedabout it. Thenhe said, "Can

anybodydo anythingabout that?" AndI sa'id,"Gee, I don't know." I said, "You'rethe archbishopof the military forces. Maybeyou can te11 the government.But nobodye'lse has ever beenable to do anythingabout'it. And'itrs there." So I knewthese thjngs wereof coursein existenceand all

of that. But it is true at that time that El Pasobegan to changeand grow. It grewreally moreright after the war ended. Thenall of a suddenit METZGER 25

mushroomedI i ke thi s.

But as far as our olvnpeople were concernedhere, I didn't find any

particular moral deterioration amongthem. I certainly didn't. And a lot

of the things that were going on in Judrez, they were the military, and they

had all the military problemthat's the world over whereverthere're armies.

That's what it was. And I knowthat somechaplains camehere from back

east, you know.Some of'em, they were very disgustedabout someof the

things that were happening. You know,the menwere going over to these

housesof prostitution and all this type of thing; and I said, "We1'l, they're

gonnado it."

Nowone of the first thinqs that I did here whenI cameto El Paso... /Fqus,il I got a call one say, I had just arrived here. trJhenI came,Bishop Schuler

was still alive, the old bjshop, but very feeble; and so I had to take over,

really. So GeneralSwift sent word that he wantedthe Conferenceof Chris-

tians and Jewsto go throughall the m'ilitary installations, and they asked

me if I wouldcome. So I did. Andwe traveled all over that desert for

about a weekor maybeeven more, from one place to another, and gave ta1ks.

The headof the Conferenceof Christians and Jews, he was I thjnk a former

Presbyterianminister from NewYork, and then there was a rabbi from Denver.

And so the three of us madethe rounds and tal ked to the boys whereverthey

were, and it wasquite interesting. 0n1yone bad thjng about it, I got a

homible sunburnout of it. This vvasin Apri1, and you knowI drove around

jn a jeep all over the desert. And, oh, I just got...it was terrible. I

had to go to bedI

Whatplaces d1d you go to? METZGER 26

SM: All aroundthe camphere, then out to Orograndeand all thoseplaces. They

hadartillery pnacticeback there. [^lewere going to all these...youknow,

the local area here. l^lewent to aboutfjve, six d'ifferentplaces that was

all concentrated/T{i Fort Bliss and...what'sthe other p'laceright across from it? 0M: BiggsAir Base? SM: Yeah,that's right. Wewent to all of them. It wasa very, very interest'ing little tour. I got to knowsomething about E1 Paso,met someof the peop'le there that werevery prominenthere. Andthen, we11,then of courseI hadto build upadiocese. Nowthat's somethingthat perta'insstrictly to the Church. Andthat wasnot an easy th'ingto do, either. Wehad a heavydebt here. ,lFAUSt So then, of course,I djd find out herethat the labor sjtuation wasn't very good. Thatof courseras you know,is whenI got'into a lot of trouble a thousandtimes. (Laughs)

Backjn thosedays you weresensitive about that, you realized the s'ituation?

I'll te11you, VeS. I wassensitive about that for onereason. Thepeople don't knowthat. Whenall this Farahstrike cameand'it becamea national

issue, I was,Vou know, in all kindsof limelight. Not that I wantedto be, but I hadto. So oneday I wasasked on a panel, they said, "Howdid you ever becomeinterested in thjs type of thing? Wereyou related in any way to a un'ionor wereyour peopleunion?" Godknows in thosedays there were

no unionsl (Chuckles)I said, "No. I becameinterested jn that whenI wasa studentin Rome."I wasa youngpriest in Rome,and'in the coursein CanonLaw Pope Pius XI prescribedthat there shouldbe a coursegiven'in METZGER 27

social justice. Andthe ,rfourseon7 social justice that we have,if you haveany farniliarity with it, is basedlargely on the encyclicalletters of

PopeLeo XIII on Social Justice, on the conditionof the workingman and so .|89.|. on. Andone of those, the famousone, vvaswritten in

AndPope Pius XI broughtdown a Capetian,of all kindsof people. You wouldn'tthjnk a Capetianwould study that becausethat's really a strict kind

of order andyou wouldn'tthink they weregoing'into social iustice. He wasa Belgian. But he wasqu'ite a famousname in that field and he brought him to Rome,and we attended his classes. That's howI learned. AndI recall himvery well. Hewas a very love'lyman, e'lderly man. He hada long beard

and he spokewith a Frenchaccent, however. And all thosecourses were in Latin, you know,then. So everythingwas fine. Onepart of the courseI

didn't like at all becauseit wasthe history of all that, and/^-I.J wasn't so muchinterested in that. But whenit got to the explanationof these encyclicalletters, he wasabsolutely superb. Thatwas my background.I had that whenI cameback from Rome. Andso whenthis thjng camehere, a lot of it cameto myattention and I got to knowsome of the labor leadershere. Youknow, they think that the

only time that I ever hadanything to do w'ithlabor waswith the Farahstrike. It's not true; that just happenedto be a culmination,that happenedto be a bjg, b'ig, big thing. But I hadbeen connected with that for a long time. One of the menwho was the head,the representativeof the AmericanFederation of Laborhere, wasa memberof St. Patrick's Parish,and he wasa very good friend of mine. Andone of the first encountersI hadabout labor, I really foughtthe Mineand Mill, the Mineand Mill andSmelter l,Jorkers, if you know anythingabout them. Nowthey usedto be here in El Pasoand they wereup in METZGER 28

Bayard,_lNew Flex'ico/ and thoseplaces. Andsome of the menthat belonged to that unionbe'longed to St. Patrick's Church. I'll not mentionany names,

you mayknow some of them. I think someof themare gone. But they came

to tell meabout this thing, andthey said, "Weshould join anotherlabor union. This is Communistic." Olil: The one at ASARCO? Slol:Yeah. TheMine, Mill andSmelter Workers were Communist; their leaderswere Communist. AR: Whatyear wasthis jn? SM: This wasabout '52.

AR: Andthis wasyour first encounterwith labor on a grandscale?

SM: W'iththat type of thing, Ves, whereit really got... Duringthe war there wasn'tmuch of that, you see. Duringthe war peoplekept their noseto the

/grindstoqqT*inning the war. But that's whensome of that cameup. I had hearda lot aboutlocal situations, too. But that wasthe fjrst majorone.

Andso I told themthat they shouldjojn anotherunjon, and I actually fought the I'lineand Mill and Smelterhlorkers, fought themopenly. Andwhat they

wantedwas somebody e1se, of course;and then finally as it turnedout, the Mineand Mjll andSmelter Workers simply deteriorated. Theyhad, I think, so many1ega1 expenses and everything, they couldn't exist. Andthen the steelworkerscame in. Nowwith thesehuge steelworkers unions and so on, they take care of themselves.But I'm interestedin the poor little guy that needs help.

But the manthat wascausing a lot of the trouble at that time is a man namedClinton Jenks. Theyhad a strike up at Hanover,I don't knowfor how manymonths. AndClinton Jenks was a card-carryingCommunist. There's no METZGER 29

questionabout it. Andthen later on he wastried in the federal court here.

JudgeThomason was the presidingjudge here, andhe wasconvicted. Andthen,

however,finally it went to the SupremeCourt becausethey said there was someform of evidencenot introducedwh'ich would violate his constitutional rights. But he wasabsolutely and out-and-out Communjst, a professional. There'sno questionabout it. Andthe story goesthat he wentup, cameback up to Silver City andthose places after the acquittal, and the peopletold him neverto comeback because they'd shoothim if he did. 0M: Whotold him that? Theworkers? SM: Yes. 0h, yeah. AR: So in this particular caseyou wereon the side of the workersagainstthe unions?

SM: t,rle'llnow, though, some of the workers,the workerswho were against the union, yes. But I wasnot against...I told'em to changethis unionand jo'in a good

union. I didn't say which,I couldn't very well. But GeorgeWebber was the headof the AFLhere in that time. Hesaid to meone day, he said, "You don't realjze, you havepositively split that thing in the middle' that

wholeunion." Hesaid, "somedaythey're gonnafeel that." Andthey were also at the works'inCarlsbad, the potashmines. Andthey werevoted out there, too. Thenfinally of coursethey just hadto give up becausethey owedtoo muchmoney. Now,that unjonat one time washishly respected,many years ago. But then after that it got'into the handsof all thoseCommunists, strictly Com- munists. NowPhil Murraywas the national headof the AmerjcanFederatjon of Laborand CIO. He kicked'emout becauseof that, becausethey were Commun'ist. |ViETZGER 30

0M: Howlong wasthe issuealive here in El Paso?

SM: 0h, a coupleof years. l,.le11,then there wasanother time I wasinvolved.

0h, whenthey hadthe Peytonstrike downhere, I was k'indof in that. But you know,nobody ever publjshedanyth'ing in thosedays--not very much,anyway. But I fought for the workers. AR: Whenwas this, the Peytonstrike? Slt'l:What year? I don't recall the year anymore.It wasafter this other thjng. AR: After the Mineand Smelter. SM: Andthen of coursethere wasanother one here, the strjke downat the Hilton Hotel. Youknow, the beliboysand the maidsand so on, they werestrikjng

and they werepicketing the p1ace. AndI also got into that becauseit so happenedthat at that time they werethinking of buildingJesuit HighSchool, they weregonna have a drive. Andthey had bookeda dinner there long before

the strike, you see. Andthen FatherDonne'ly said, "Whatwill I do?" I said'

"Well, don't haveit. Don't havea dinnerthere." I said, "lf you havea dinnerthere, keepme out. I nevercross a picket line." Heunderstood that. Andthat got into the newspapers.0h, boyl I wasgiving confjrmationsout

at St. Joseph'sChurch that night,andI got there andthe eveningpapers said,

"BishopRefuses to CrossPicket L'ine,"or someth'ing.There I hadmy foot in it again. And,oh, there werea numberof thosethings. Thenof course,the Farahstrike. Well, that wasvery unfortunate,but.. 0M: Beforewe talk aboutthe Farahstrjke, 1et meask you aboutthe other two. SM: Whatwas the outcome? 0M: t,rlell,yes, I wantto ask you aboutthat. But I'm curiousabout the pressures that you got in the Peytonstrjke, jn the Hilton Hotel strike. Whatpres- suresdid you get fromthe businesscommunity, the conservat'iveelements in Metzger 3l

El Paso?

SM: 0h, they wantedto boycott everything I was doing. Manypeople boycotted me

completelyas far /jFl trying to keepthis or that going, programsgoing.

/_lheyliust wouldn'tcontribute. AR: This hasbeen true in all theseparticular caseswhen you've been involved? SM: Yeah,that happens.And that's the pattern,'it usuallygoes that way. AR: I t' s the moreaf f I uent peop'le. SM: Yeah. Thepeople that don't understandthat properly,that's the first th'ing

you see: "We11,I'm not giving anything." 0h, that's happenedto me. I've lost a lot of personalfrjends on accountof this.

0M: Financially,was it a big loss? SM: 0h, I supposelt wasin a way,but wegot by. I wasn'tafrajd of that. 0M: Couldyou mentionsome specifics?

SM: Yes. For instance,we hadproblems wjth our newspaperand so on that we neededhelp with. Andalso different contributionsfor drjves whenpeople sa'idno they wouldn'tbecause of this. Yeah. I won't mentjonany names. 0M: Did anybodytry to twist your armto stay out of jt comp'letely?

SM: Look,you want to knowthe truth? 0M: Yes.

SM: Iheywere practica'lly a1l scaredof me. Nobodywould come and talk to me personally,and I dared'emto. Oneman did a long time ago, and he didn't

get very far. Heiust didn't knowwhat he wastalking about. Andal1 they weredoing was, they weretelling somebodye1se, "Why don't you talk to the 'em bishop?" I said, "We"l1, I'l I tal k to anybody.I'l I take on." There. wasone very prominentman in this city. Somebodysaid, "lllell, he'd ljke to comeand see you." I said, "I shall be delightedto see him, discuss Metzger 32

everything very ca1m1ywith him." You know,I had to be sure of my ground.

And furthermore, I didn't ever butt into anybody'sbusiness. It's only when

I was asked.

0M: Whatabout within the churchh'ierarchy?

SM: Well, somebishops were probably a l'ittle moreconservative, but I think they rather admiredwhat I wasdoing. As a matterof fact,'in the Farahstrike,

that endedup in the bishops'meeting in Washington,and 11oon{ ever knew that. That's a long story. But anyway,l,lillie Farahflew themup there and they started lobbyingduring the bishops'meeting. 014: Whodid he fly up there?

SM: Heflew a fellow named0neidas. Hewas his public relationsman. Hewas a

Cathollcguy from Dailas, and he hired him in order to ruin me. I think 1jt was/Oneidas; one of thosenames it was. Andthen he flew...well, he flew

somem'inisters up, andwe vvon't mentjon their names,but they suddenlyappear- ed. Andthey werelobbying in a kind of way. I don't knowwhether some of

the Conroyswere with themor not. Andhe hadflown to different placedand

visited peopleand said that I didn't knowwhat I wasdoing. Andthen of

courseyou knowa numberof local ministershad put out a bookletabout'it, sayingthat I didn't knowwhat I wastalking aboutand so on. That's some- whereal I i n black andwh'ite.

But anywa.y,to talk aboutthe hierarchy. I'Jhenall thjs thjng got start-

ed up in Washington,finally oneof the bishopssaid to me, "Look,would you do us the favor andask for permission?"This vvasnot on the agendaor

anythinglike that. "But let's ask CardinalKroll," whowas the headof the conferenceat the time, "for permissionto let you talk andexplain the Farah sjtuation." I got permissjonfrom the Cardjnal. I don't think the Cardinal Metzger 33

wasso happyabout labor unionseither, but he wasvery fair. AndI gavea

20-minutetalk to all the hierarchyof the UnitedStates that werethere.

AndGod, I got an ovat'ion--such.[thag I'd nevergotten anywherein a'11my 1ife, NowI'm sayingthat to give you an idea of whatthe h'ierarchywere thinfting. Andthere wereprobably some of thosethat didn't like the idea,

but { guessthey thoughtI hadguts anyway,if nothinge1se. (Chuckles) AR: In tdlking aboutthe Farahstrike, whatwas it that you felt wasunfair at Farah? SM: Well, let meput jt just briefly. In the first place, there wasnot a suffi-

cient living wage. Whenthis first cameup andthey first appealedto me, I wrotea very jnnocentkind of letter whichwas meant purely for the local situation. Andthen a bishopfrom the east wrote to meand wanted me to make

an in-depthstudy of this, whichI djd. AndI closedeveryth'ing here practi- ca11yfor two full weeks,and that's all I dld frommorning til1 night--got

jnformationand all of that. All documented,too. And then /_'.-t.lwrote him a letter saying, "This 'is the result of mystudy. I think this is not conduct-

ed in accord1wttfr whatwe would call the princ'ip1esof goodsocial iustice." Andthat letter thenwas made public. The.tF!g19! CatholicReportgr got

aholdof it andpublished jt verbatim--thewhole works! 0M: Howlong wasit? SM: God,it wasabout three pages. 0l,l: That wasa summaryof your study? SM: 0f mystudy, yes. 0M: Now,what about the orjginal study, whatdid you do with that? SM: Thatwas the original study. 0M: 0h, that wasthe wholething. Metzger 34

SIi'l: Yeah- And then of course, that's whenit got into pub'lic handsand every- 'em thing e'lse, and then I was really in it. But what I wasdoing, telling

basically, was that the wageswere not fair and 6h^!f they should have been better. Oneof the worst th'ingswas that in order to get an increase in pay,

they demandedtremendous quotas wh'ich those womencouldn't fulfill. Andyou

see, if they didn't fulfill that, we11,they wereapt to be told, "You get

out." That's not the way to do th'ings. Thosewere the two basic things.

There's muchmore to it than that. I don't recall all the details.

AR: Nowyou broughtup the idea that you thought that they whouldhave the right to colI ective bargaini ng. SM: Well, surelyi

AR: Thatwas another thing. SM: That's right, that's the basjc thing. Hedidn't wantthat. Nowway back, I

call te11you this, that fromway back when Mr. Webberwas stjll here, living in the cathedraland was with the A F of L, he talked to memany times about

the Farahs,how hard they were. I didn't knowthe peopieat all. At that

time I wasnot actively'involved. Andhe said that he hadtried manytimes

to tell themto do differently. No. Theydidn't. Soyou see, I hadgrounds. Andwhen the peoplecame to meI hadto makea very difficult dec'ision. I knewit wasgonna causesomedifficulties. But Lord, I hadno idea jt was gonnajust plummetinto nationalprominence all of a suddenand create almost a nationalcontroversy. OM: bJell,jt wasl SM: It surewas,all right. AR: At the sametime I read that there werelike 600workers who had beenformer- 1y employedby Farahthat picketedyour home. l'letzger JC

SM: Yeah.

AR: Theywereunhappy that they no longer hadjobs and it seemedthat they were

blamingyou.

SItl: No, it wasn'tquite l'ike that. Farahhad in his workingforce a certain

groupcalled the Happies. Nowsomebody kept the Happiesin goodhumor and they were kind of brainwashed.Now some of those, they got pretty goodwages. Andthey werethe oneswhom he usedagainst me. And they weresore at me,

of course,because I wasfighting Farah. That, Vousee, madethe strjke all the moredifficult.

AR: Thesepeople hadn't beenlaid off?

SM: No, I don't think so. At the time. Theywere up here, sure.

AR: We11,I remembersome of the things I readsaid that they'd beenlaid off. 5M: That probablywas on later on. Theymay have done that, I don't know. But

whenthey wereup here Farahtold 'emto do that, andthey werew'i11ing to

do it becausethey weremad at me. Now,I knowwho some of those people were. Theyweren't getting any small wages,some of those. Therewas a lot

of differences--discriminat'ionif you wantto call it that--whateverthe sourceof it was, In the companysome were getting paid poorly andothers muchbetter. Therewas favoritism and all 'in it. Andthese people that they wouldcall the Happies,Farahkept themhappy, as they say. AR: Thjs was600 'is whatthe newspapersaid. SI{: I t must've been,coul d' ve beenabout that many. AR: That's a lot of people. 0M: Andthey cameup here? SM: 0h, yeah. I don't knowhow many came up here,buta lot of thosecame up here, yeah. Metzger 36

AR: l,'1e11,as i wasgonna say a while ago, I recall readingthat they said that they felt like they did havethe right to collective bargain'ingand that had

wagesbeen so low and the'ir benefitsso poor that Farahwould've been union- ized long before,and that there wouldn'thave been the controversythat there wasat the time. Andthis wastheir stand--thatthey hadvoted and they hadvoted the uniondown, and that they wereunhappy about your jo'ining in the controversybecause they felt ljke the Churchfunds were being used. SM: Theonly reasonI camein is becauseI wasasked to comein by the workers. Yeah. NowI knewthere wasthat divjsion of opinjonamong the workers,and I wasconcerned about that. Andsome of thosepeople that wereaga'inst it, they wererea'l 1y not sufferi ng. Yeah.

AR: lr/ell, they said that there wereother plants in townthat wereclothing manu- facturing plants, whohad lower wages than Farah.

Sl4: Well now,that couldwell be, but there wasno strike. I'm not goingto every businessin town,you know. If they hadcome to me... That probablyis

quite true, there were. But here the peoplestruck. 0h, V€s. Andthen they weretaken up by the AmalgamatedClothing Workers. The Amalgamated Clothing Workersdid not come'in;they wereasked to comein by thoseworkers. AR: But I understandit wasjust a small groupof workersthat askedthem to 'in come i n'itia11Y.

SM: Well now, howmany there were initially, there were quite a few. 'l'ike AR: I think it was somethingl ike 276 or something that.

SM: Probably,could've been. But they had rights, too. The matter of the fact

was, objectively, there wasa lack of soc'ial justice in that whole business.

And there were somemen who came down, a committeefrom the bishops'meeting,

from the conference, who were experts on that. And I told them to go in and Metzger 37

visit it and see what's going on. Nowyou see, what Farahwas saying to

everybody,"Go throughmy plant, and it's beautiful ." t^Jellyou know,we're

not that stupid. You can havea very n'ice-goingplant and everything is

under control. But what's underneath?Sure you could go through that and

never see anything wrongjust whenyou went through it. And I'm surprised

that they were so amateurishthat they did it that way, someof them. They

fell for that. I would never fall for that.

AR: Nowyou didn't go through the plant?

SM: No, I did not. I didn't th'ink it was necessaryto go throughthe p1ant. I

was willing to discuss with Mr. Farahanything he wanted,but they were iust

foolish. Theycould set that thing up and say, "Look, here it is." And

that's not wherethe social just'ice showsup. Social justice showsup out-

side what actually happens. /Plus_Ef

Z|{'f'..!-7questioned about these things accordingto the requirementsof social justice, it wasquite clear he wasnot observingthem. Andthe committee that camedownhere camefrom Washington,and they went throughthe plant and they talked to him and they sawthrough it right away. Andthey reported backto the bishops. I mightadd to thjs that I knewfrom very reljable peoplehere in the

city, attorneysand so on, aboutthe very...wel1,we say uniust things that hadhappened to peoplewho for instancewere let out of Farah,who lost

their jobs andso on, all becausethere vvasno collective barga'iningavail- able. That js wherethe soc'ialjustjce or injustice will showup. Andthis wasknown, and they ta'lkedabout it. AndI heardit, for instance, METZGER 3B

fromattorneys here in the city, whosenames I don't wantto reveal. But

they said that there wasno doubtabout it, that someof the peoplecame

to themfor advice, about howthey had been1et go and so on without proper compensationand all that. Nowthat's social jniustice right there. Andfor all thesereasons i surely d'idn't think that it wasnecessary to go through the p1ant. I didn't haveto go throughthe p1ant. 0M: Did you rememberthe nameof the personwho came here? l,,lasit Arthur Goldberg? SM: Yes,yes . That's right. 0lr'l:Could you give us details of that meet'ingwith him, whatwas said? SM: Yes. Arthur Goldbergcame through here a few years ago whenthey had the Mayor'sBreakfast down at the Civic Center. Thatwas during Mayor Henderson's time. Andthey askedme to give the involcatjon,I believeit was,or the blessingor whatever. AndArthur Goldbergwas the featuredspeaker for that.

Hecame here from Washjngton. And when Arthur Goldbergcame into the ha11, he cameright over to me. Andhe practical]y to'ld everybody,he said, "I wantto sit downand talk w'iththe bishop." Hewanted to talk to meand he

sat at mytable duringthe wholetime. Andhe discussedthis wholesituation, the labor situation andthe Farahstrike, with whichhe wasvery familiar. And he wasvery happyto meetme--he said so. lflnusV 0tr1: Youwere tell ing us about your conversationat the dinner table.

Sl4: Yes. And he talked about the Farahstrike and so on, and he was so happy

about the whole thing. And he said...this was real'ly a marvelousthing he

said. I said, "Well, you know,Mr. Goldberg,I don't get very muchcredit

here jn the state of Texasfor th'is." "bJell," he said, "pay no attention to

that." He sa'id, "You haveto expect that." But he said, "You did the right Metzger 39

thing." Andhe said, "I amvery happyto meetyou," andso on. So thenwe sat together,and finally he got up and he hadhis prepared

speech. I don't rememberwhat it was. Beforehe got to that, he told the people that he wasvery happyto comehere and that he wasvery happyto meetme. I supposew'ith all the gentry there, they werequ'ite surprised at that, but probablydidn't like ft too well. Andthen this is whathe said. Hesaid, "Youknow, there're all kindsof issuesthat are beforethe public thesedays. Thereis the questionof living wage,for instance;how the workersshould be paid. There'sracjal discriminatjonand all suchthings as that. There'shousing, andall the things that we're supposedto do. ['lovl,"he said, "somepeople cons'ider those pof itical . Theymay be political

issuesin a sense,but there is an elementof justice jnvolvedjn all of them. 'is tlJheneveriust'ice involved,r.el igion has jts functjon. Andtherefore rlf your rabbi or your minister or your priest speaksout on theseissues, even thoughyou maynot personallyagree with him, do not persecutehim or any- thing of that kind. That's hjs duty." Theycouldn't get jt moreclear than that.

0M: That's pretty straight. Howdid you feel aboutthat? SM: I certainly thought I couldn't havesa'id it as well myselfl Andthis is whathe told the public. I neverheard any reaction. Probablymost of them

haveforgotten it, but I surely d'idn't. Andthjs of coursejs quite true:

becausethere is iust'ice jnvolved'inthese things, we shouldhave something to do with them. We'renot try'ingto run somebody'sbus jness. I've always told peoplethat wheneverI got into labor things... By the way, the.very

first trike that I wasin herewhen I camein /wasat thehld MeadBakery. That's a 1ong,long time ago. Metzger 40

0M: Whenwas that? '44. SM: This was back in probably1943 or And one of the mencame to me from

the AFL-CI0,and theywere having practically a...it could've becomeviolent.

This mancame and he said, "Thesepeople are looking for better pay." And

Godknows they weren't paid very much. And he said, "Theyare practically

all Mexicanpeople, Catho'licpeopl e. I think that probablyyou cou'trdhelp

themout." "We11r"I sajd, "I'll be glad to help themout. I don't know

just howI can. But I don't knowwho runs this bakeryor anything." And he

gaveme the person's name,and he sa'id, "l,louldyou talk to him?" I said'

"Yes, I surely wi11." Gaveme his telephonenumber. And I called the man

up and I told him who I am and so on. And I said, "NowI understandthat

you're having quite a bit of tnouble." This labor representativethought

that the peoplewould get workedup and probablydo violence, you know. And

I said, "MaybeI can help you some. Nowlet memake'it very clear to you,

I'm not gonnate11 you howto run your business. But if you want someadv'ice,

I would be very willing to give it to you."

l^lell, he cameto see meone eveningabout nine o'c1ock, and I was living

jn the old Hotel Dieu in those days in two rooms. And he went homearound

one in the morning, I guess. Wewent over that whole thjng, discussedit

and all that. And I think later on they did havea union there. I don't know

what's happenedliinct. Anyway,that one blew over. ThankGod nothing happen-

ed. But I told him what the reasonwas and so on. I said, "If you don't do

that, don't be surprised jf peop'leget upset emotionally. Andwhen they

becomeupset emotionally they do a lot of things that are unreasonable,that

are bad,even. That's what peopledo whenanger sets in and despa'irsets in

and all of that. This js what you're up agajnst." And I told him at the Itletzger 41

time, I said, "Nowprobably what this manis askingyou is morethan you can payat this momentbecause your wagesare so low,andthen all of a suddento

jumpup to that other scale." I said, "Youcouldn't do that econom'ica1'ly for your ownbusiness. But whatyou shoulddo is to beginto p'lanfrom now

on andlittle by little go on up so that you canmeet it." Helistened to that; he seemedto accept'it. NowI knownothing more about the MeadBakery after that. But that wasmy very first experienceright here. It must've beenin 1943,'44. I wasn'there very 1ong. I camejn'42. 0M: Whydid they cometo you? SFl: This man? 0M: Yes. SM: Well, I think he cameto mebecause I wasthe bishop. I believethis man

himselfwas a Catholic, if I remembernowi His namewas Hardesty, he was fromOklahoma City. Yes, he wasan Irishman;Hardesty I thjnk is an Irish

name. Andhe told mewhat parish he belongedto. But he said, "I cometo you for advice." It wasn'tthat I hadestablished a reputationin particular or anythinglikethat; not that. But he hadheard about me for somereason'

I don't knowwhy. But he said, "Maybeyou can help me." "i,.lell,"I said,

"l wouldljke to help the cause,the situation, if wecan do somethingfor it." AndI don't knowwhat happened later on, but at least that wasavoided. But I believethat the men,the employers,many of them,if this thing is put beforethem reasonably and they aren't all of a suddenburdened with some- thing they can't meet,that's whenthey throwup their hands. AndI told them,I said, "Nowthe'idea is not to put you out of businessr"I said. "For onereason, then you're kjlljng the sourceof supportthat thesepeople haveand'it'd ki11 you andkill them. Andyou shouldstay jn business. But Metzger 42

let's do it this way." So I believethey cameto somekind of an agreement

abouthaving a scale. AndMr. Hardestyaccepted that and he said, "If I can

convincethe men. Andif I tell the menthat I savlyou," he said, "I think that will do it." Apparentlythey acceptedit. Thatwas the MeadBakery. I don't knowwhere the lt1ead...isthere still a l,{eadBakery here?

AR: /fes,l I think it's underanother name though. I can't rememberwhjch one. SM: Probablyis. It probablyhas gone under another Ddrlr€r but it wasand old-time insititution herethen. Yeah,that wasvery interesting. But I did appre-

ciate Arthur Go1dberg' s con'ments. 0M: Whatabout Sargent Shriver? Youtold us that you hada conversationwith h'imal so.

SM: YesI did. Did I te11you aboutthat?

0M: I don't think you gaveus details aboutthat. SM: Yes. Now, SargentShriver, he knewabout the Farahstrjke becausethe year

that it becameso public andall waswhen he wason the vice presidential ticket, I believe, w'ithMcGovern, wasn't he? Andhe camethrough here and I think he talked with the workersand found out aboutthe strike. Andthen of courseI hadwritten somethings. I hadwritten that letter that was published,all of that. So he knewabout it. Andthen finally whenhe came backthrough here it waswhen he thoughthe m'ighthave his eyeon the Presi- dential nomination.He asked to seeme. Andhe said, "Not poiitically. I

knowhe's really not interestedin that type of th'ing, but I iust wantto see the b'ishop." Andso I tal ked to him and he told methat he wasvery, very happyabout it, that he hadread everythingI wrote. He thought it wasvery sound, th'is wastfire proper thing to do. Andagain I told him that it was not at all well reCeivedhere. i said they werevery upsetabout it. [4etzger 43

Ratherbitter,many people were. Hesaid, "Youpay no attention to that

either." But he said, "I wantto tell you that backeast you're a hero." Andhe said, "You'reone of mine." Thenhe said also, he sajd...this is very, really very personal. Hesaid, "WhenI sawyour name,Metzger, I knew that you wouldn'tgive up." Andit's a Germanname, of course. AR: Whatdoes it mean?The nameMetzger,what does it mean? SM: Metzgerreally meansa butcherin German.If you go to Germany,in some parts of Germanyyou see a place that sayspq!Zgtg-l_, whjch meansa butcher

shop. Andhe sa'id,"My name is really German.Our family nameoriginally is Chreiber,which means author in German,writer, somebodythat writes.

But I guesshere they madea "v" out of Shriver,I guess."He said, "We've beenin this country250 years." But he hasalways spoken about that. He

thoughtthat'it wasa very great thing. So that's the waypeople feel 'in

other places. AndI wasvery proudof that, with a manlike Shriver. After all, he's quite an outstand'ingperson and a very goodperson. AR: Wewere talking aboutFarah's decline right nowin business. Doyou think that the boycott in any wayhad anything to do with his current problems?

Sl4: Indirectly it could have. I believethat if Farahhad settled the strike andaccepted the unionjn duetime insteadof creatinga'll the fuss all over the UnitedStates and naturally also makingit difficult for the peoplewith whomhe wasdealing, I don't think it wouldhave hurt himmuch at all. I frankly th'inkthat he himselfwas the one that wasresponsible for a lot of the damagethat wasdone to them. Nowthey wi11 probablysay that the boy- cottitself did it. Theyboycott, that could'vebeen certain'ly avoided if they hadcome across and settled it. But I also, after the strike wasover, I wrotea letter to all the bishopsof the UnitedStates and told themthat Metzger 44

nowthis had been sett'led and that if in anywaythey felt that they could

encouragetrade with this company,that I thought this was the Cristian

thing to do. And as a matter of fact, I met one of the Farahexecutjves

one tjme who happensto be a Catholic. I better not mentionhjs name. Yes.

I rnet him downin the bankafterit was all settled. And I told him that

anything I could do for h'irn,let me know. Never, never called back.

I believe that lflhe boycott/ aia hurt him, of course. Now, however,I

believe that subsquentlythese other dealings must've hurt him. He could've

quite easily recoveredfrom that boycott, the effects of it. But I don't

think t,.lill'ieplayed the gamethat way. He kept a1l the time...the peop'leall

knewthat he was very unhappyabout this situation, I'm sure. He djdn't

want the settlement. He djdn't keepthat any a secret. And then you see,

the menwith whomyou dea1, they beg'into wonder. Theywould say, "lle11, 'if now, he feels that way about it, perhapsone of these days there'11 be

another breakoutof somekind." And that could very easjly hurt his business.

Nowhe probablydoesn't realize that and doesn't think that way. But I would

by no meanssay that the boycott ruined Farah, becausethey were on the way

backwhen they beganto decline. Theywere actually makingmoney, I beljeve.

And this decline has comeabout becauseof the businessdeals that he made

himself. Hadnothing to do whatsoeverwith the boycott or anything e1se.

Furthermore,I don't knowwhether you read all that in the paper when

all these changeswere taking place in the admjnistration. ldhent'lill ie came

back to assumethe reins, I understandthere was one mansuggested that they

sue the Catholic bishop. D'idyou read that in the paper?

0h, rea11y? I wasn't here whenthat happened.

That's right. It was in the paper, I saw it myself. And the paper simply Metzger 45

said it was not accepted. NowI knowthat somebodywas in the stockholder's

meetingand heard this whole thing. And this manev'ident'ly is very bitter

against me.

AR: F'lr. Farah is bitter?

Sl4: No, ro, this manthat...this was a stockholder. 0h, [t'lr.Farah is bitter against

me, of course; alwayswas. However,he maybe a little afraid now, I'm not so

sure. But whenthis wasall settled and [.lillie Farahwas back in the saddle, as

we say, that's whenthis stockholdersaid, "Nowwhat about suing the Catholic

bishop, the Church?" And they sajd Farahlooked at him, he said, "No. Let by-

gonesbe bygones." Nowthat comesfrom a personwho actually heard'it. But it

was in the paper that that was suggested. So there are probably sti11 manypeo-

p1e here who are very unhappy. As a matter of fact, I got here and there anony-

mousletters. 0f course, we pay no attention. Peop'lewho write anonymous1et-

ters are first of al1 cowardly. It's the most cowardlything you can do. You're

just ruled out of court with that. But we havereceived those things. Andwhen

B'ishopFlores camersomebody wrote me a letter and said, "l{ell, he was iust Iike

you are. He'sjust like youwerehere." Andthis camefrom a Catholicwoman. Evidentlya lady wroteit. Theway she betrayedthat--d'idn't sign her name--Ahe/

said, "Why,nobody is proudof what you did. l,.le'real1 thoroughlyashamed." 0f

course, that isn't quite true. That's the sort of, a manifestationof paranoia

whenpeople do that type of thing. Wecan't pay too muchattention to it.

AR: Do you feel like the employeesout at Farahhave it better nowthan they did be-

fore? Do you think the changeshave beenmade?

Sl4: I understandthat they have. I haven't really followed it up. I think the un-

ion haddone the best'it could. It maynot haveachieved all that it rea11y

wantedto. 0f course, remember,he js cont'inuallyfighting it too. He's Metzger 46

given it no cooperation. He's madeit very difficult. Nowthat mayblow up

again sometime, Vou never know. But yes, if the p'lansthat the union had

set, if they could carry those through, that wouldcertainly benefit the

union. And for one thingt one thing about the benefit that the union has

that you can't just fjre somebodyand throw themout as you could before.

You can haveany kind of an excuse. The laboring manhas to havecollective

bargaining. Otherwjse,who is he? Just a little individual who's at the

mercy of somebodythat says, "I don't needyou anymore. Get out."

AR: In talking about collective bargaining, I read an article wrjtten by Friar

RobertGetz'in the DioceseanNewsletter in 1973. He talks about the fact that the Churchdoesn't have unions, that their employeesaren't unionjzed. Andhe felt I jke that they didn't havecollective bargain'ingand that he

felt that they shouldhave it. Howdo you feel aboutit?

SM: In the Church? AR: Yes. SM: ['Je].l,now, that questionof course,nowrwhat people for instanceare saying very often, whydoesn't the Churchhave unions? We11,novl you mustremember onething: the Churchis not in husjness. TheChurch has just aboutenough to get alongwjth whatjt needs. This'ideathat the Churchis wealthyand hasa lot of money,this is altogetherwrong.And this is quite true, that in manycases we should pay more, and will, if wecan. But we're dependent on whatthe peoplegive us. t^Iehaven't got any secretamounts of wealth

h'iddenaway somewhere and say, "Here,we can handall thjs out." That is a very commonerroneous idea that's abroadabout the Church. Nowthe quest'ioncomes up for instancethese days, you mayhave read aboutit, teachersin parochialschools and so on. Andthat questjonhas Metzger 47

beenargued. Nowthe Churchdoes believe in social justice and so on, but there's also anotherthing. TheChurch is a spiritual institution, andwhen

you go into the Churchyou go jn there for an apostolate. That's whatyou're supposedto do, andat sacrifice. Nowwe're getting into a different realm there, you see. AR: Well, do you also includethe secretariesand janitors andthose people as apostolatesal so? SM: Yeah. Yes,all of'em, as a matterof fact. We'renot like an industry.

If wewere'in business,Ves; but we're not. Yousee the difference. But we shouldpay thembetter andwe havetrjed to raise things as best we can.

Andwe couldn't meetthe wages,for instance,that peoplewould get where

they are propenlypa'id in a large business,because we iust don't havethat kjnd of money--certainlynot aroundhere. But the Churchshould also follow

social justice as far as /'itl- possib1y can be done. AR: In talking aboutjust the different political issues,I wantedto talk a little bjt aboutsocial 'issues,as far as the churchsupporting social wel- fare programs.I havehere the nameof a groupof Spanish-speakingpriests

called the Padres. Are you famillar with that? Yes;oh, yes. Andthey said that they felt like the Churchshould function more jn urban as well as rural barrios. Theyshould particpate as far as helpingthe people. . .

Sl4: With housingprograms and so on.

AR: Right. And getting morehealth care and that type of thing.

SM: That's correct. I believe in that. I think that's all right, that we rea11y

should. Nowwe haven't beenqujte able to do'it the waywe wantedto in our Metzger 4B

diocese-This is not as easyas it sounds. Thetheory is perfectly okay. But in housing,for instance,you then becomeinvolved in with the government

and everything,and all thesedifferent lega'lthings, Someplaces have done

very we11. Wejust werenot ab'lequite to swingit. Andwe hadmany, many discussionsabout that here. AR: With the mayor? SM: No, not with any persons. I'm not talking aboutany persons. Theobligations that you hadand everything e'lse. Andyou know,also, there's anotherside to that. It looks somehowor other that the governmentwas using the Church to do its workthat it's supposedto do. That's anotherway of lookingat it. OM: Sure. All the social programsthat the Churchis invoJvedin.

SM: Andthen all theseprograms, there is so muchpolitics involved,you know.

Youhave the changeof administrations,and all of a suddenyou sit there left holdingthe bag. Youhave to also considerthat. I rememberwhen a lot of thesethings cameout, jt must'vebeen during the Johnsonadminsitration. 0h, someof themmaybe during Kennedy's,around that time in there. Andwe consjderedif fromevery ang1e. I knowall diocesesdid, and someof them coulddo'it probab'ly,and that wasfine. I rnustadmit that we felt that we werenot quite, weweren't ready for it. Maybesomeday we w'ill be. I have no objectionand understand the principle. I'm all for it. Whatdo you meanby not quite readyfor it? I meanthe financial obligationsand everything that are involved,we were not quite readyfor that. In talking aboutthe Church'sleadership, I wantedto ask howyou feel about the CatholjcChurch'srole jn the MexicanAmerican culture? Whatpart do you think it's played? Hasit helpedmaintain the Mex'icanculture? Metzger 49

SM: t,rle11,I th'ink so, yeS. I think it has. Yes. AR: Youreceived an honoraryaward by the Spanishgovernment in 1957.

SM: That's right. AR: For workingpreserving the Spanishculture in the Southwest.

SM: Yeah,that's correct. NowI didn't ask for that, Vouknow. Somebodygot that for me. Theythought'it wasa nice thing to do. 0f course,there're a

lot of Spanishpriests hereinthe diocese--fromSpain, I mean. Quitea num- ber of'em. Andbecause of the fact that there was... TheSpanish govern- ment,you know,still takesa great deal of pride in the fact that Spanish is spoken'inso manyareas whjch they started,yousee, their owncolonizatjon programsoriginally. So that's the waythey feel aboutthat. Nowthe'inter-

esting thing aboutthat is, that was'in the timesof Franco,Vou know. And somepeople wrote me some very badletters about that, that I wasaccepting

an honorthat wasgiven by a governmentthat wasled by a dictator. Well' I sure neverthought of that. AndI'm sure that Francohad notfi'ing to do with the honor. (Chuckl es) Whatwere the programsthatyou were involved jn that led to their giving you

the award? Well, I guessit waslargely becauseoftherefigious programsstarting to promotevocat'ions from amongour Mex'icanpeople here, vocatjonsfor the priesthoodand all. Thewhole thing in general. Andthjs, very true, I've donethat. Haveyou seena growthof youngpeople who have become interested in the

pri esthood?

By a1l means.0h, V€s. Therehasn't beena decli ne? Metzger trn

SM: lrle11,let meput it this way--therehas beena declinelike everywhereelse. We'vehad the problems.Some of our priests haveleft the priesthood,for

instance. Nowthat's happenedhere, it's happenedall over the world. As a matterof fact, PopePaul referred to that onetime in oneof his talks, I remember.I havea copyof it here. Andfrequently, wheneverhe tal ked aboutthat, he called that his Cnownof Thornsthat th'is washappening. Now that hadnothing to do with whetheryou wereMexican or Americanor Germanor Chineseor whatyou were, it wasjust somethingintrjnsic there that was happening.Yes, we've had that problem. But our diocesenow, I think' has morenat'ive Mexican vocations to the priesthoodthan any other dioceseinTexas. AR: lllell, haveyou actively goneout andencouraged this?

Slvl: I haveactively goneout. I don't knowwhether I told you this story or not. I thoughtwe hadmentioned something before about that, aboutgetting voca- tions to the priesthoodfrom our ownMexican people. Usuallyadioceseshould havethe vocationsthat comefrom within the diocese. That's the first duty of the bishopto do. Andwhen I camehere, that wasmy first task. Wehad

very few priests herewhen I came. AndBishop Miranda, who later becamethe

Cardinalof Mex'ico--he'snow retired, he's quite up in years--he usedto

comethrough here, and he said to meone time, "Howare you gonnaget voca- tions herefrom the Mexjcanpeople?" I said, "lllell, I haveno secret at all

exceptthat I thjnk that we /ihoulO/ look at a vocationas a very spirjtual thing andeverybody is equaland the same. Youhave no questions asked, whatnatjonality do you belongto or whatlanguage do you speakor whatcolor do you haveor anyth'ing. Ille'resupposed to get vocationsfrom the fam'ilies

and the peop'lewho I i ve i n our djocese. " l,'ietzger 5t Tape #2

SM: So I told the Bishopthere would be no distinctions madeof any kind. This

I followed throughall the way. And he said to men"And you'11 be success-

ful. " And most of our students noware students of Mexicanparentage.

AR: Fromhere in El Paso?

SM: 0h, yes. 1,1e11,in the djocese. Not necessarily from the city, but wjthin

the diocese. And that has grown. There's no questfonabout it" But then

of coursewith this kind of a cnitical situation in the Church,we also

suffered from that. But I foresee it's gonnawork out very well. I think

there's an upswingnow.

AR: Do you have any numbersas far as howmany Mexican American priests that you

have now? qM- Students? Right now, oh, I must haveover 20 anyway,I think'it js, that

are actually working now, those that are actually workingat it. Probably

more. Somehave left. But I haveno exact figures on that available right

at the moment. But somehave left, like they did everywherein places.

About what percentageof all the priests in the area are MexicanAmerjcan?

At this time, oh, I would say probably 10 percent, at least. Therewas a

t'imewhen there were zero. That doesn't look ljke very much, but whenyou

look at it that way, that's quite an improvement.It's a slow processto do

this, you know. I rememberone of the menhere told me one time, he said,

"lnlhenyou talk about getting priests for a d'ioceseand get themtrained and

all, my heavens,it's ljke planting a tree. You haveto watch it grow up.

It takes so long to go througha1'l the vaniousstages." And that's true.

And I started fnomzero whenI came. Therewasn't anything'like it"

Whenyou first cameto El Paso, did you perceive a general attitude among

Anglo Americanstoward MexjcanAmericans as not being capab'leof doing Metzger J'

academicwork, holdingprofessional jobs, advancingeconomically?

SM: I guessI met somepeople thatthought that. Theydidn't comeright out and

tell me; they wouldn'tdare, you know. But there weresome who did. I will give you an incjdentwithout, again, mention'ingnames, that g'ivesyou an idea of whatsome people were thinking about. Therewas a lot of preiudice here. There'sno quest'ionabout it. Veryshocking at times, and'it came fromour ownCatholic people, I'm talking about. I don't knowmuch about the other peoplebecause they did not enter into this questionhere. But one

t'imea mancame to meand he said, "Whatabout these Mexican chjldren who are goingto our parochialschools?" Andthis k'indof wasrather strangeto

me. I said, "We1l,what about it?" "Well," he said, "you know,we have lived herea long time." Nowthfs wasthe attitude of a lot of old-timers.

"Wehave l'ived herea long time andwe knowthese people." That's the ex- pressionthat wasused. In the meantime,I mustsay my fever wasrising a

l'ittle bit, you know,when I heardall that. AndI said to him, "Nowwait. Youjust, you can't havethat kind of thinking. Thechildren of Mexican parentsare as goodin the parochialschool as yoursor anybodyelse's.

That's the wayit's gonnabe. Nowjf you don't ljke that, Voujust go and lumpit." I told himexactly that. Andthen later I called up his parish

priest and I askedhim, I said, "Soand so wasdown here, tells methis.

I'm amazed.Do you knowabout that?" Hesaid, "Youknow,I sent himdown purposelyso he'd get a goodscolding." (Laughter) Nowthat wasthe type of thinking. Theseare true stories. AndI believe,yes, in so manyAnglos that feeling wasthere. However,that has beenovercome quite a lot. I'm sure it has. 0therwiseyou wouldn'thavepeople in political jobs andprofessions as we havenow. Andone of the persons Metzger 5J

whokind of turnedthings aroundpolitically herefor Mexicanpeopie was RaymondTell es.

0lril: Didyou knowRaynond Telles very well?

SIil: Verywe11. I knowhim very well. As a matterof fact, whenRaymond Telles cameback from the war, he cameto seeme. I think he wasa majoror lieu- tenantcolonel. He hadquite a njce careerin the war. Andhe talked about the l4exicanpeople and he talked aboutpofitics andso on. AndI sajd,

"Sure,I think you ougthto go into politics." I said, "Andnow js the time to do it. You'vecome back wjth a fine recordand everything. Youcan show

yourself to the pub1ic,"and so on. Hesaid, "Youthjnk I oughtto run?" I said, "Yesyou should. I don't knowwhat the outcomewill be, but you better try it." l,rlell,he ran for countyclerk, I believe. In the first election, he won. Hedidn't win it by very much,but he wonit. Andfrom

there on his stockwent upr |ou sec. Nowthat vvasone of the first of the kind at that time of the young Mexicanpeople who came into prominence.And so it wasin manyother fields. Soa lot of that I th'inkhas beenchanged. You may still havea few around that are mosbacksyou know. Andyou can neverchange a mosback,it'll alwaysbe that, that stjll think alongthose lines. Yes, but there wasthis kind of an anti-Mexicanattiutde. Fromwhat I'm just telling you, that is an example.And naturally I foughtall of that. This is not...iust won't happen.Now there weresometjmes people said, someAng'lo Catholics said, "Well, the b'ishopcares on'ly about the Mexjcans."(Chuckles) 0M: Real1y? SM: 0h, yes; they'vetold me. 0M: Recently? Metzger tr,A

SM: No, no. Yearsago.

0l"l: Long time ago.

SM: Yes. They never told me personally. Nobodyever would cometo me and face

mew'ith these things, but I heard themall. 0h, yes. And all I was trying

to do was to balancethings and do what's right. Godknows I have nothing

against any Anglos. I'm one myself, 'if we classify peoplethat way. But

th'is kjnd of thing, I just don't understandthis, becauseit's all so terrj-

b'ly small and so unnecessary.Well , just to put it bluntly, it's very stupid.

But that's the way the world is. So I think on the housingthing, I wish

we could've done better. But I hopenow Bishop Flores will be able to carry

on someof that. The diocese is in better shapenow, too, financially.

AR: I wantedto ask you, weren't you one of the foundersor the founder of a seminary? SM: Here?

AR: I thoughtit wassomewhere here in Texas. I can't recall the name. SM: 0h, I started St. CharlesSeminary here. That's on'lya high school seminary. Yes. I started that preciselyto get vocationsfrom the diocese. Andthe

studentswho are there, they're nearly a'I1, near'lya1l Mexjcanboys. Whatyear wasthis that you started it?

Must'vebeen about the early '60s. l,llebuilt that. St. CharlesSeminary. Doyou knowwhere i t i s? AR: No, I don't SM: Youknow where St. l4argaret'sis, St. Margaret'shome? AR: Yes.

SM: All right. That building is right in with that groupof bu'i'ldingsthere. That's St. CharlesSeminary. Metzger hr,

0M: Whatpart of townis that? SM: It's down---whatpart of towndo you call that? Yougo downthe va11ey. 'l AR: The I ower va1 ey. 0M: Thelower va11ey. SM: It's the lowerva11ey, yes. Yeah. St. Margaret'sHome, you see, that was oneof the first things I built. In thosedays they still hadso-called orphanages.These of courseare outdatednow. But we're using the home, St. l4argaret'sHome. And if you want to knowabout that, go downand see Sister Alice. Shecan tell you all aboutit. AR: But you helpedstart St. Margaret'salso?

SM: Yes, I started that, and I started the seminary.

0M: I'd like to ask you aboutSacred Heart School. I graduatedfrom there, and a fewyears ago it wasclosed. Whathappened in that case?

It just couJdn'tswing it anymore,that wasit. Just simp1y...forone thing, SacredHeart parish becamea lot smaller. A lot of peop'lemoved out. I think the time that the Chamizaldeal wasgoing on andall of that. Andit wasjust impossibleto keepit up. Thatwas exactly what jt is. I{e kept it up as 1ong as we poss i b'ly could . Whendid it close?

I don't know. Call Father Gafford, he can te11 you. If you want to know

moreabout SacredHeart school, call Father Gafford. Coyou knowhim?

No, I don't.

t^lel'l, he's the pastor. Father Bob Gafford. He's an El Pasoboy. He's a

Jesujt. And Father Gafford, Gafford js of course an Anglo name,but his

mother is llexican, I'm sure. He's beena pastor there long t'ime. He can

te11 you moreabout the sjtuation, the whole quest'ionof our Mexicanpeop'le Metzger 56

here, probably than any priest around. And in fact, he has beenmy represen-

tative for many,many things. And he is a solid citizen. No question about

it. Beenhere a long time. But he can give you those dates. I'm not good

at dates. I forget the dates soonas they're over. (Chuckles)

AR: I wantedto ask, whenwas the first time you heard the word Chicano?

SM: Whenwas the first time I heard it?

AR: /_[et./ SM: I never heard'it anywherebefore I cameto El Paso,and I was here a long

time before I heard it. It was whenthat movementcame here, the Chicano

l4ovement. I remembersome years, whenit was in the papers. I never heard

it before. AndI've askedsome Deople about this. AndI rememberthere was

an article in the Herald-Postone time that gaveI don't knowhow many mean-

'ingsof the wordChicano, so manysenses in whichit wasused. NowI know one personhere told methat they rememberedthat Chicanomeant somebody

fromChjhuahua. Some Mexjcan people who came from Chjhuahua,that wasa word whichreferred to them. Theywere Chicanos. Not in any derogatorysense at

all. So I havealways felt that a lot of that cameout of the state of Cali- forn'ia, that type of thing--the po1jtical part of jt--and then 'it k'indof spread. t,rledld not haveChicanos here. I neverheard the wordChicano until the '60s, and I camehere in '42. AR: Doyou think that this movementhas helpedthe MexicanAmerican people poli- tical ly andsoc'ia11y? SM: Yeah,I think'it has in somerespects. Yes, I think so. Nowsometimes they maynot alwaysdo the wisest things, but I think they havehelped. I wouldn't condemnanybody because he's a Chicano. But jt's like all the other movements. Youfind somepeople in jt that are not exactlysuitable. That's natural. Metzger: 57

But the purposeof the Chicanolvlovement is, I think, very good" NowI happen

to knowalso that there're manyMexican people here in El Pasowho do not

wantto be classedas Chjcanos.You probably know that. There'replenty of 'em. So I keepquiet aboutthat. (Laughter) 0M: It's the wisestthing to do sometimes. SM: I havenothing against Chicanos at all. But I knowI havebeenin these

circles whensome of thjs wasdiscussed, and they sa'id' "0h, no, yg.19.qoy- Chicanopor.!tdl, n4dg,.nadq_."Nothing doing. (Chuckles)Then you better keepyour mouthshut. So theseare the d'ifferencesthat you fjnd. 0n the other hand,I think

it's moreamong the youngerpeople that the movement'is,and even some of the youngerones don't wantit. They'redivjded on that subiect. AR: Doyou thjnk maybethe Ch'icanosmay feel an alienation here in Americaran

isolation from the Americanculture? Doyou think maybethat's whythey started this movement?

We11,they started'it basicallybecause they felt that the Mexicanpeople in generalwere djscriminated against. Andthat's correct; I think they were. I thjnk I mentionedthat before. Theywere. Andso they started then on

thesevarious things andthey trjed to get the political side of it andso on. But I think basjcally that wasthe wholething that jnspiredit. Andthen alongwith that they wantedto preservetheir ownculture--which is, natural'ly, the step that wouldfollow logically onceyou take that first step. Youdon't think they oughtto assimilateinto the Americanculture moreand give up their heritage? Theytry to keeptheir culture, I think. Yes. Nowthere are someChicanos... th'is maybe the badfeatfre of it, that they do not appreciateother cultures. Metzger 5B

Thatof courseisn't qood. Andthe dangerof the movement,of all movements like that, is there is so muchpolarization. Youpolarize groups so much'the

first thing you knowyou set groupsagainst groups. Andthat's whatyou have

to watch. Theremay be somethat are doingthat in the movement.Yes, and I knowthere's evensome of the clergy talk aboutthat. Therewas a personI knowgave a ta'lk, not here in this city. hle11,in fact, Newl{exico State University. Andhe representedNew Mexico. Andhe referred to the corrupt AngloChurch. (Chuckles)Now that, you see, is goingoverboard. Hewas very severelycrit'icized for it. I got letters aboutit, and I told themto

sendthem to ArchbishopSdnchez, /becausdT he wasnot frommy diocese. (Chuckles) AR: Doyou haveany politically radical priests that considerthemselves Chicano in the El Pasodiocese? S[{: Here? I think someare. Yes, they're Chicanos,but I wouldsay moderate. I

don't knowof anybodythat's real'ly radical, can't think of anyone. Someof 'emhave a reputationfor being so andsome perhaps are quite misjudged. I think they are. NonI havenothing at all againstthe movementas suchif it's conductedproperly. Nowthere are things that for instanceare said on these d'ifferent programs,who have 'em on television andso on. A lot of peopleare

furious aboutthose, I knowthat. Andsome of the lt4exjcanpeopl e. 0M: Havethey cometo you aboutthat? SM: 0h, yeah, they'vetold meabout 'em. (Chuckles)Surely they have.

0M: "AztlSn Sin Fronteras." SM: Yeah,that's oneof them;yeah, I think so. AndI said, "We11,I don't parti- cularly approveof thoseeither, but I'm not goingto go out andtell 'em, 'Here, Voucant say thesethings.' Becausethen you're interfering with freedom of speechand all that kind of thing." I said, "I believethat someof jt is Metzger 59

not the right wayto go aboutit." Youknow, if you build a grudgefor things

that havehappened, God knows, a hundredyears ago, and keepthe grudgeand

building it up, you're not build'ingup any positjve relations that are good. Andthat's whatsome unfortunately are doing. It's so negative. Theyshould try to build goodreiations with the Anglosor whoeverelse they are. That's the positive part of it. Andthat maybe jn somecases where the movementis at fault. I knowI havemet individualslike that, that talked alongthose lines, and i thoughtthey werejust qu'itewrong. But I wouldn'tsay that about the movement. 0h, I've hadeverybody here. I've hadthe BrownBerets sitting right aroundhere.

0M: 0h, really? SM: 0h, surely.

0M: Canyou te'l1 us aboutthat? SM: 0h, no. Wel1,they discussedall their problems.Surely. 0lu1:Why did they cometo you? SM: Theywanted adv'ice. Andsometimes, of course,they maderequests that I couldn't give'em, and I so told them. I sajd, "Now1ook, I'm gonnabe very

honestwith you. There'scertain thjngs wejust can't do." 0M: Theywere seeking advice on what? SM: 0n aboutthe useof buildingsand all this type of thjng, Churchbui'ldings pos- sib1y. Andthen of coursethey hadsome of the instancesof d'iscriminationand things of that type. Someof it was...theyhad a very goodreason to be upset. But nowalso you haveto remember,these are youngstersthat belongto that. And I a'lwayshave a great sympathyfor youngpeop'le. They're gonnamake a lot of mistakes,but that's they waythey learn. Anddon't condemn'em l'!etzger 60

ever for that. If you condemnrem, you ki'I1 their initiative. Andso when

theseyoung fellas comehere and they...the waythey ta1k, sometimes,if you

wantedto get upset,you'd te11 'emto get out, you know. Andyou can't do that. 'leave, That's the waythey are. Andwhen they "This is al1 right. _E_$g"bjen." I neverhad any fights with them. But I just very nicely told'em, Yeah'they woulds'it downhere. Therewere sometimes so manyof 'emcame they didn't have enoughroom jn that p1ace. But I neverrefused anybody that wantedto come here--includin'the History Department.(Laughter) 01t'l: We'revery happyabout thatl AR: I wantedto ask you abouthow you feel aboutthe i11ega'lalien situatjon right now.

SFI: 0h, dear, yes. That's sucha compljcatedthing, and I iust havenot any clear ideaswhat really shouldbe done. This is a very complicatedthing. I've heardso manyangles. 0f course,the NationalConference of CatholicBishops hasmade some recommendations about amnesties and all that type of thing. Now this is ideally andspiritual'ly the pnoperthing to do. There'sno doubtabout

it. But I don't knowthat the governmentswill do that. Andprobably not. But that is probablythe only wayfrom a charitableand sp'iritual viewpoint

that that can be done. It shouldbe donein sucha waythat thesefamilies that are torn apantand all of that--that's very serious--thatthat can be handledso that they get together. That's aboutall that I can tell you. Just how,I don't know. 0M: 0ver the years haveyou encounteredany par.ticularcases with families whowere herei11ega11y that wantedyour help? SM: l,Jell,we haveof courseMr. Velarde'soffice downthere that handlesthat, so I'm not familiar with the details. Thatoffice is put there by the bishopsof Metzger 6l

the United States. And CleofasCalleros had that before. Did you knowhim?

0M: Yes, I did. In fact, I interviewedhim.

SM: 0h, wel1, good. 0h, yes, nowthere's a character, Vou know. Yesnthis thing

has beengoing on, there's no doubt about it. And they at that time didn't

think of any solutjon, as far as I could makeout; they just kind of let it

go. It's only in the last few years or so that they're try'ing to solve the prob'lems. But it's so complicated.We11, they do /6reak the lar^j7,I knowthey do. But rea'|1y,in a lot of that case, if you boi downabout these aliens coming jn, it's almosta law of natural necessityth t they're bowingto, something they rea11yneed. Andthey're jn needand thfi s is... lnlhenyou put peoplein

shouldn' t be, of course. But I haveheard about this question,I havelistened to all kjndsof talks andeverything. I canonly te11you the ideal that there is; howthey're gonnado it, I don't know. But that questionof the families that are being

brokenup, you knowwhat I mean. Thatdoes happen. And the familyt onceyou start fooling aroundwjth the family andbreaking it up, you're in trouble. But you neverhad any dealings with a specific fami'lyof i11ega1al iens?

No, not personally. I alwaysdid that throughthe Utl.S.Cathol'ic Conference7. Sometimesthey wouldask mehow to handlea thing or so. Thefamiljes them- selves,that all wentthrough official channels. lrlhatabout in the schools? Did you havekids fromfamilies that werehere

i11ega11yenro'lled jn Catholic schools?

Sl'1: Weprobably did, we probab'lydid.

0M: Did you ever comeacross any sjtuation or any case that you had to look into? l'letzger 62

SM: No, not personally. But I thjnk there were probably some.

AR: Do they allow the children to stay in the school?

SM: I don't knowwhat they do now. No, I think probably not. Becausethey have

to checkon jt then. That's governedby the Departmentof Education. If you

want to, dny information about that, you call Sister Clarissa. Shecan tell

you. She's headof the Departmentof Education. l"lsgr.llacDonald used to be,

but she nowis.

AR: I wantedto ask you somequestions about you. Wehadn't had a chanceto touch

on someof these topics. Haveyou ever doneor held any other position with a

private busjnessfirm, or did you haveany other kind of job other than with the Church? SM: No. AR: You'vealways been in the Church.

SM: Exceptwhen I wasregentof St. Mary'sUniver!ity LawSchool. That's a law

school, but that's a Catholiclaw school. No,jI neverhad any other pos'it'ion. I also noticedas I wentthrough looking for informationabout you that you werethe youngestbishopin the U.S. hierarchy. SM: At that t'ime.

AR: Did you feel any special needto proveyourself becauseyou wereso young? SM: We11,rea11y, it wasa bjt of...I wasa bit frightenedwhen I first wentup into ldashingtonto the bishops'meetingsamong all that groupfrom all over the UnitedStates. Rathera formidablegroup of people,you know. But yes, I had to, you haveto kind of establishyourself. Theyexpect you rea11yto deliver the goods,as they say. But they werevery fine and very sympathet'icto meat all times. Theyreally were. Nowthe bishopsmay disagree on a lot of things

and so on, but there is a very fine esplit .€.qg.Lp.:"among them. Thererea1ly f"letzger 63

is. Andthat's a kind of, I guess,a loyalty by the fact that they'ne,we11, brotherbishops- Andwe try to help eachother as muchas we possiblycan.

l,.Jetry to be charitable, jn other words. But I hadno problemswith that questionof youth. I can te'I1you a very funny story aboutthat. lnlhenI wasgetting readyfor my consecration,ord'ina- tion as a bishop,we all havea retreat before'it. Andbeing in SanAntonio, I wentout to OurLady of the LakeCollege; they hada lot of roomout there. Andone day I waswalking down the corridor, andalong came a very pontifical- looking gentleman(if you knowwhat I meanby that), a monsignor.I was nevera monsignorin myfife, I skjppedthat. But at any rate, he sawme, and

I wasdressed just in black. Youknow, I worea black cassock. Andhe was

very curiousand he wantedto know,he said, "Areyou on the faculty here?"

"No, tto, I'm not on the facu'lty." "I haven'tseen you before." "No, I guess not." Andso, well, he got so bloomin'curiousand finally I told him, I said,

"l^Jell,1ook,I'm getting readyto receiveconsecration as a bishopnext Wednes- day." rr0hrI' he said. Helooked at me, he said, "Yes, I readabout that." He

sa'id,"lrlel I , it lookesI i ke the Poperobbed the cradle. " (Laughter) Nowthere I waspaying...I waspay'ing the price of beingyoung. AndI said, "We11,never mind,monsignor. You know, there's an old ax'iomin the old Romanlaw, in the

CanonLaw, that malicemakes up for age." (Laughter) But I didn't haveto do that with the bishopsof the UnitedStates. Theyaccepted mevery we11. The fact that I wasappo'inted, that wasenough.

So, yes, I felt it, though. I felt it wassuch a different waY,and things

I had never done before. You get a 1arge, muchbroaderviewpoint about things,

and think about the Churchat large.

hlere you ready forit? l''letzger 64

SM: l,.JasI ready? I don't think I was. But I had to get ready, as they say, PDQ.

AR: lrlhywas it that you weren't a monsignorbefore you becamea bishop?

SM: Well, the monsignoris...that's an honorthat you get for priests, the bishop gets it fon priests whohave done excellent work and so on. But the archb'ishop thoughtI wastoo young. But whathappened was...he told methat himself. Let mesee, this wasin Octoberand I wasappointed the following Christmasto be-

comea bishop. Andhe sa'id,"You know, I put in your nameto be a monsignor and I got that, andthen I wroteback to the apostolicdelegate and told him." He really didn't think it wasnecessary to do it becausethis wasin the books. So that's the reason.

AR: In lookingback in your servjceto the Church,what's the biggestboo-boo you thi nk you ever made? SM: ttjhat?

AR: Boo-boo.Are you familiar wjth whatthat means?The biggest mistake?

SM: 0h, the boo-boosl(Laughter) Wet1,now, let mesee. There'requjte a number of those, it's hardto telII (Laughter)On, dearme. Yes, I've defin'ite1y

mademistakes, we a1l do. Somet'imesI don't knowwhether I wouldchange poli-

cies again, generally. I think I waspretty muchin the right direction. But I havemade mistakes sometjmes in mjsjudgingpeople. Youhave to be very care- ful of that, especiallyin the beginning. You'vegot to get a lot of experience to do that. Andas a result, as I wenta'long I becamevery cautious,wh'ich I am. But someof those th'ingshave happened to me, and I usedto say to myse'lf

later on, "Well, if I hadto do that over again, whywas I so stup'idto do it

that way?" That's human,Vou know. But I don't knowthat I...I haven'tmade any majormistakes that wouldwreck the Church,you know. (Chuckles)Hasn't gonethat far. Howeverin Rome,the authorities, all the reports I got, they Metzger 65

seemedto be very highly pleased. As a matterof fact, the letter that I got

whenI celebratedmy go'ldenjubilee herea few years ago, I got that from Pope

Paul. It's really...I lookedat that and I wasn'tsure whether he really knew me. Andhe spokeabout the work towardshelping the workersand the poor and al I of that, you know. AR: I noticedthat oneof the tjtles that you hadwas Assistant at the Pontifical Throneunder Pope Paul. SM: Yeah.

AR: Wasthat just a title or wasit... SM: That is a title...let meput it this way. I supposethey makea priest a mon-

signor, not necessarilya bishop. But the Assistantfo the Pont'ificalThrone they generallygive you whenyou're 25 yearsa bishop,provided you havedone

reasonablywe11. (Chuckles)So that wasit.

I askedyouwhat yourbiggest boo-boo was. Howabout .your greatest accomp"lishment? jder Vlell, now,that's somethinge1se. /_!aus.{ Aboutwhat would I cons the greatestthing that I hadto do, natura'l1yI considerthat from the v'iewpoint of a bishop,of a Catholicb'ishop. And I thjnk the greatestthjng that I have attempted,and haveto someextent succeeded,is trying to bujld up a nat'ive

clergy, andalso the organizationof the 1aity. I havespent a great dea'lof time to organizethe Catholic1aity. l,r|ehave a Councilof CatholicLaity and al I of that. I don't knowwhether you read about jt or not. lle hadthe Congress,vve call it. Andat that time we sent out 30,000questionnajres to all the Catholic peoplein the diocese,asking them what they thoughtwas needed in the d'iocese. Whatwere we not doingthat shouldbe done? 0r did they think this wasn'tdone right? Theycould say anythingthey wantedto. 0f course,not denythe Trinity, Metzger 66

.l5,000 you understand.But we got about replies on that. Andit took about

two, three years to get all that thing boiled down. But out of that camewhat

we havenow, we call it the Councilof the Laity. Andwe havea PastoralCoun- cil of Lay Peoplealso w'ithpriests in it. Andthe Councilof the Laity is one of my...I will put it this way,one of mypet organizations.And that means that the 1ay peopleare tak'ingactive interest in the Churchin everyway--'in consultationand in recommendat'ionand helpingmake decisions and all that. Andthat's whatwe're buildingup. Thosetwo things I wouldsd!,then.-building up a nat'iveclergy andbuilding up our Catholiclaity as membersof the Church. 0M: This laity organization,when was that put together? SM: f,lell, that wasabout 1974, the latest. However,we hadthe nucleusor the foundationfor a lot of thosethings. Wealways had what we called the Council

of CatholicWomen and a Counc'ilof Cathol'icMen and all of that. Andof course we hadthe CatholicYouth 0rganization, too--the CYO. I will alwayswork hard on thosethings over the years becauseI sawalways the needof the 1ay people.

After all, they're the Chunch.If there's no people,you got no Church. And I think that we laid the foundationpretty well. Sowhen we hadour Congress to be onganized,as wecall it, that workedout very we11.

NowI call this a congress,andI was only followingout the CanonLaw. Every10 yearsor so jn a diocese,a bishopis supposedto call whathe calls a synod. We11,I put that in all the modernways in accordancewith the think- ing of the VaticanCouncjl. Andwe didn't call it synod. Nobodyunderstands

the word,VoU know, except ecclesjastics. Andso wecalled it a congress,Dio- cesanCongress, so that everybodywould understand. That's whatthat was, real'ly. Andthe outcomeof it wasthis Councilof the Laity. Wehave a dioce- san meet'ingevery year, we havequite a boardand they representit from all l.letzger 67

over the diocese. Theboard meets, oh, maybethnee months or so. Andsometimes

if somethingcritical cameup, they wouldmeet. AndI think it's workedout

very well. Theyrvebeen a tremendoushelp to me. Andthis is not an easyiob to do, I can tell you. Youhave to nursethat kjnd of a thing alonglike a baby. Yougotta havepatience. Andwhen you deal with organizations,sometimes they look like they're just aboutfalling apart. Thenall of a suddenthey pu11 togetheragain. Andthat they havedone very we11. I'm very proudof that organization. AndI knowthat we're the only one in Texasthat hasone like it. AR: 0h, is that right?

SM: That's right. Theothers havecouncils of men,they havecouncjls of women,and

they haveall this type of thing, but not like we haveit--the wholelaity put together,men and women and youth and all. That's whatI wasshooting for.

AndI think we havesucceeded in doingthat. BjshopFlores I think, himself,

hassaid that to somebody.He said, "I didn't knowyou hadthis." Hesaid, "Nobodyhas that around." 014: Wheredid you get the idea?

SM: I got it fnom...wetalked aboutit, someof the priests. Wetalked aboutwhat we shoulddo, and they mentionedthat.

014: Hadyou seenanything like that 'in operationanywhere else? SM: No, I haven't. [nJed'id it ourselvesout here. Out here in the desert, the mountains,where we can sit andthink andlook at God'sblue sky insteadof the badcl ouds.

AR: Theydidn't presentthis jdea at the VaticanII Counc'i1? Sl4: No, the VatjcanII wantsthis type of organization. It cameout of that,

rea11y,trying to fol'lowthe thinkingof the VaticanII. 0h, V€S. Andthere weresome people who wnote me letters, someof our Catholicpeople. In factn Metzger 6B

they wrote'em to Rome.They gave me the letters later. Theysaid that I was

really renouncingmy authority, abdicatingmy authonity, by letting the 1ay

peopledo all thesethings. Yes. They'revery conservativepeople, you know, someof themare. Andthey couldn't understandthat, that this wasgoing on.

AndI knowone person wrote and he sajd Ird abdicatedmy authority. Andwhen I went to Romeone tjme they gaveme those letters. Theypaid no attent'ion to

jt, of counse. But they said, "Don't ever use the letters." I neverwould, of course. Thesepeople that wrote'emdon't evenknow that I have'em. They also wroteto Romeabout Farah, too, manyof'em did. 0tr1: Andyou havea stack of letters aboutFarah? SM: 0h, I destroyed'em. There'son'ly one I etter that I've kept. I think I stj 1l haveit.

OM: Canyou te11 us aboutit? Sti: Yeah. I think it's very funny. It waswritten by a lady whois a social worker.

Shehad a degreein social service and so on, and she worked,you know,for l,rlelfare,Human Welfare and all that. This wasaddressed to PopePaul. Shesent

mea copyof it, you see. Andthen she wenton to tell the Popehow my stand wasdisgracing the Church. Andso I readthrouqh that. To makea long story short, I kept it for this reason: at the endof the letter wasa punchline.

Shesaid, "Ho1yFather, what are you gonnado with a bishoplike that?" And I thoughtthat wasit1 I th'inkthat's really funny. (Chuckles) Youwere a hopelesscase. Hopelessl (Laughter) Surely, shethought I wasl l.ilanyother peopledid, I guess. Somestill do. But it didn't botherPope Pau1. As a matterof fact' I got lots of recommendationsfor whatI did from PopePaul. 0h, that's the one letter that I kept, the others I destroyed. Theywere bad. Theywere Metzger 69

b'itter, andyou don't keepthose th'ings .

0M: Did you ever get letters with profanity in them?

SM: No, I don't think that I did. Realprofanity, no.

0l"l: Werepeopl e generally respectful, proper? Sl'l: Generally,oh, yes. Theletters that werewritten, as wewould put it in Americanslang, they werecussjn' the hell out of me, but they did it jn a rather nice way. (Laughter)They didn't call mean S0Bor anythinglike that, or useany of thosethings andso on. No, not that. I don't think I ever got one ljke that. If I did, I probab'lytore it up andforgot jt. AR: Nowthat you've retired, doesthis meanthat you can no longer hold a higher office in the Church?

SM: That's right. Whenyou retire, that's whereyou stay.

AR: Hadyou ever aspiredto be morethan a bishop?

SM: No, purelydidn't. Hadno idea I wantedto.

0M: Doyou give up your title of bishopwhen you retire? SM: 0h, no.

0M: l^lecan still addressyou as Bishop? SM: 0h, I'm a bishop. You'rea bishopforever. 014: So it's properto addressyou as B'ishop. SM: 0h, yeah, the only way. Nowhere is whatthey put in the paper. I thr'nk

sometimesthey put in the "formerbishopr" or somebodyput in "the ex-bishop." MyGod, I didn't get a divorce,youknow. So andso's ex-husband.l{e11, people don't knowthat. But the properway that that is done,the way'is to write

Bishopand Emeritus. Couldput a "d" in the front of it if they wantto-- the Demeritus.(Laughter) But I knowthat somepeople saw that in the paper.

Itreally didn't botherme, but somebodysaid, "Now,that isn't right." hle11, Metzger 70

I said, "Goahead and tel1 'em, I don't care."

Yeah,but somepeople have asked me, someof our very good, simple people'

a'lady askedme in Crucesthe other day, oneof thesegoodfvlexican ladies up

there. She sai d, "&, _Ergslsncjg , .!oqaYl-q-es -o_[j_lP9-, iverdad?" I said, "Yeah." Thenshe said, "I wi1I ca11you bishop,obispo-, cqJno,U!qs." "Sf. That's right." Thatway you can understandthat. I don't expectpeop'le to understand thosethings, it's kind of a technicalthing. l,rlell,you know,as far as aspiring to anythingh'igher is concerned'after all, the Pope'sreally a bishopyou know. He's the B'ishopof Rome.And there isn't anythingin the sacramentalorders that you can get that's higherthan that.

Theother things are just titles. As far as beinga bishopis concerned,we're all the same. Oncewe havereceived the orders, that is the ord'ination. No,I

really didn't...I wasnever interested jn that. AR: Youhad your handsfull here.

SM: I sure did, that's exactlyrighti I hadn't time to th'inkof it. Andwhen I came

hereand I sawhow difficult it was, I said, "We1l,fine. If this is whatGod wantsme to do, I'm not ask'ingfor any change." 0r ask to be promotedor demoted or anything. I just stayedput. I think that's whatGod wanted me to do, and that's what I did. 0M: Did you ever hopeto get transferredelsewhere? SM: No. 0M: Youwere happy here?

SM: I was. Onetime, oh, I wasgonna be an archb'ishopin SanAntonio and I iust was

...this wasjust a lot of gossip,Vou know. But that waswhen the Seeof Los Angeleswas vacant, and they said that ArchbishopLucey was go'ing to LosAngeles and I wassupposed to go to SanAntonio. I really wasn'ttoo happyabout'it. I Metzger 71

didn't say anything to anybody,but thank Godit didn't happen. (Chuckles) 0h,

I would've goneback homerea11y, in a way. But I wasjust at that time getting

things started. So that happenedthis way, then--that ArchbishopMclntyre came

from NewYork and becamethe archbishopof Los Angeles,and ArchbishopLucey

stayed in SanAntonio, and I stayed here. And that is okay with me.

AR: I read that you like to go incognito sometimesand go to someof the local bars

and listen to someof the local talent.

SM: l,.lel'l, ho, that's real1y...no. That's quite an exaggeration.

AR: Is it?

SM: Yeah. I don't go to any local bars ever. But I havegone when I've travelled.

And I th'ink the reason for that was that one night we were driving back from

Santa Fe to El Paso,and it was late. 0h, jt was after midnight, and had driven

all that distance. I th'ink that was with Father loladden.And I said, "Gosh,can

we get a cold drink or somethingsomewhere?" Everything was closed except one

place looked like a kind of a joint, you know. And he sa'id, "lr'lell,lookat all

the roughnecksin there." "lde11r"I said, "1et's go in, they don't knowwho I

am." Andwe did. But if anybodyhas the idea that I'm visiting bars jncognito,

aroundhere I can't go incognito.

I was wonderjngwhen I read jt what you did.

No, no. That's altogether wrong. I wouldn't be that stupid. Pretendthat I

want to go somewherehere in El Pasoand not be known? No. So, no. But that

has happened. I've gonethat way if I travel, sure. There're a lot of times.

But we stoppedthat night. This wasa stopover for the truck drivers, Vou

know. They were not bad peop'le,but it's kind of a roughoutfjt. And if you

listen to the l ingo there, it wasn't exactly what you read in the Biblel

(Laughter) Metzger 72

0M: Not exact'ly-

SM: But, well, jt was, I wouldsay, very picturesque. But I don't /3o to local bar.t/. Yeah,Father l'ladden enioyed that. He said, "If these guysonly knew whoyou were." I talked to themjust nicely. Theydidn't ask meany ques- tjons. Theydidn't tel I meI didn't fit' either. (Laughter) No, somebody wrotethat. Youknow, when you're in public life a long, long time there're a lot of legendsarise abouta person. 0lt1: Whatother legends are there aboutyou? SM: I don't know,but that's oneof theml 01.1:I jotted downsome things as you weretalking, and I want to comeback to

someof thesethings. I'm curiousabout how the Depressionaffected you perscnal1y. SM: Youmean back in the '30s?

0M: Backin the '30s.

Slvl:l^Jell, it didn't affect mepersonally a great deal. 0f courseat that t'imeI wasteaching in the seminary. But we realizedthere wasa Depression.And it washard to keepthings goingand we tried to limit things as muchas we

possiblycou1d. But i djdn't suffer on accountof it. I djdn't really need very much. All I neededwas shelter and enoughto eat. I neverhad to starve, I wantyou to knowthat. But I rememberthe Depressionvery well fromSan Antonjo, and all the prob'lemsthat peoplefaced and peopleout of work. Thatway, yes, wewere concerned, of course. But I hadno personal hardshipon accountof it. 0M: Whatabout the seminaryitself? SM: l^lell,the seminary,yes. Wehad to cut down. hjehad a certain budgetthat wasassigned by the arch'iocese.But we got by. Yeah. TheDepression was a Metzger IJ

very, very seriousthing. Oneof the badthings aboutit at that time, there

weresome persons I knewcommitted suicide on accountof it. Nowthey had

made'investments,probably in the stockmarket'in one thing or another. And you knowof coursethat thing that we readabout today even, the Black Friday, whenthe stock marketcrasbed, there wereso manypeople that lost moneyat that time. Andthat of coursehurt everybody. I knewseveral men very well whocomm'itted suicide on accountof that. It wasa sad, sad time. Andthen of coursethe onewho sort of gavenew hope, that's whenFDR came on the scene. Andthere's no quest'ionabout jt, he did magn'ifjcentlyin many,many ways. 0M: In SanAnton'io there v'lasa strike backin the '30s, pecanshellers. Doyou rememberthat?

SM: Yes,yes, I surely do, yes. Yes, I knewsome of them. 0M: Whatdo you rememberabout that strike, anddid you haveany personalinvolve- mentin it?

SM: No, I hadno real personalinvolvement in it at that time. It wasa question

of wages,rea11y, that's whatit was. Andal so collective bargaining,really, that's whatit was. It's the bas'icth'ing that happensin the problemsof labor. Yes, the pecanshellers, that wasquite a strike for a while. I don't recall anymorehow it all turnedout. I think finally they got some relief. Yes, I rememberthat very we11. I knewsome of the pecanshellers

andthe people. A lot of Mex'icanfamilies /wer-f involvedthat lived out on whatwe call the westside in SanAntonio. Manyof themused to go to San FernandoCathedral and all of that. That's howI knewa lot of people. 0M: Doyou rememberjdentifying with the aspirationsof thosepeop'le, ernpathizing with them? Metzger 74

SM: Theyknew that, yes. I'm sure they did. I wasnot a publ'icfigure or any-

thing, or official, but a numberof'em I knewI waskind of...wel1, you

know,I wasiust kind of starting out at that time, I hadto get myfeet wet. Andthen later on I got into things more.

0l'l: Couldyou tell us aboutconditions in the l.lexicanAmerican community of San Antonioduring the'30s?

SM: Yes. I can't tel'l you manygreat details that I remember,but I th'inkjt wasvery bad, real]y bad. It wasbad on accountof the]ow wagesand every- thing, andthe horrible housingand all that type of thing. It wasreal poverty-striken. There'sno doubtabout it. AndI think graduallythey

havebettered that now,I'm pretty sure. But jt wasnot good. 0tt'f: Nowwhen you cameto El Pasoin 1942,these condjtions 'in SouthEl Paso,how did they stri ke you? sM: Theywere pretty badhere, too. we1'l, real1y, it didn't strjke meas any- thing newbecause I hadseen so muchof it in SanAntonio. Andfrom that viewpo'intit didn't shockme anymore because I hadalready seen'it. But I

knewthat it wasvery bad. ThankGod at least somethjnghas beentried. I think it has improvedsome.

0Fl: Whatabout conditions jn Judrez? Whenwas the first time that you crossed into Judrez?

That I don't remember.[rle11, I went over one time with Cardinal Spe11man,

you know,and I wasn't here very 1ong. I didn't go to Judrezvery often.

Youmust rememberthis: in the beginningof my career here as the bishop I

went out to beg most of the time jn order to pay debts and everything that

the diocese had. And so I spent a goodpart of my time in chicago, for in-

stance, and other places; NewYork and all of that. So I d'idn't havetime Metzgar 75

to go to Judrez. I don't remember,I must've been here quite a long time

beforeI wentover. 0h, oncein a whi1e,maybe. I don't remembertoo much

aboutit. Frankly,I wasnltinterested.

014: We1'l, one of the things that shocksa lot of peop"leis the povertythat is over there--seeingpeople begging on the streets and kjds runningaround hustli ng, alI kinds of thi ngs.

Sl4: 0h, yes. 0M: I waswondering what your first impressionsof that might'vebeen. SM: Well, I wasnot too surprised. Shockingit a1'l js, 'indeed.But it wasn't any great surprise. Wedidn't haveit quite that badon thjs side. But heavensabove, d lot of things hadto be donehere. Yeah,I don't know. Is Judrezbetter now,you think? All theseother things that havecome'in,

peoplehave come in, so manyof'em. Thatmakes it worse,Ithink. 0M: Yes,'large-scalemigration. It really hascreated a lot of social problems

all aroundthe city, I^lhatabout relations betweenthe Churchon this side of the borderand the Churchon the other side? SM: llle11,we've had good relat'ions, I wouldsay. Nowof course,there is a dif- ferenceof approach,you know,in methods'inone th'ing or another. And

there're a lot of things for instancein Judrezthat they woulddo there that wouldn'twork out too well in here. But basically it's the same. I'm sure nowBishop Flores is interestedin a lot of the l'lexicanproblenis, too, and he probablywi'11 have closer relations with BishopTalamds. He expressed that desire that he wouldlike to knowhim better. But we'vehad no serious probiems. 0M: What'sthe differencein total membership?

Sltl: 0h, heavensabove, they musthave a half a million peoplenearly in that Metzger 76

area that are in the diocese. And I don't think they have rnorethan about

50 priests- Nowhere we haveabout a quarter of a million Catho'lics,and 'em. God knowswe have about al I together 150 priests, all of Yousee the

di fference?

01,'l:It's quite a djfference.

SM: 0h,yes. And I've heardthat all alonq. And, ,lecall one time that Bishop

Talam6s;whenhe first camehe talked .rOf taftf d to h'imhe askedme what

you are asking now. He said howmany priests did I have,andI told him. He

said, "Ustedes rico."

/PAUS!_/ 0M: I'd like to ask you aboutyour ownfeelings regardingrecent changes that

havecome about in the Church--thechanges in the Mass,for example,and groupsthat havecome about jn the Church. What'sth'is groupthat I was thi nkjng about?

SM: ArchbishopLefebre? Lefebre,the traditjonalis-ts?They want the Latin l.'lass andthe old.

OM: Right, right. That is part of it. But i wasthinking of a grouphere local- ly, that's not on'lya local group. But what'sthe nameof this group? TheCharjsmatics. And groups of that type. 0h,yes,the Charismatics.Yes, that 'is a movement.lljell, this of course goesway, way back to the old-timecharismatic movement in the classical

sense. Nowwhat were they? That wasa sect, a Protestantfaith. Now,then, charismaticsin the Catholicsense, in the senseof the Church,then,kind of started after the counc'ildid. This is in jtself a goodmovement. Many peo- p1edon't ljke it. However,we do not condemnit; I wouldnot condemnit by anymeans. NowI amnot a Charismatic. I wantto tell you that right off. l''letzger 77

SJ: hlhatdoes it involveexactly?

SM: It meansthey havetheir ownway of praying, it's a very emotiona'ltype of

thing. Andof coursewhat they concentrateon is that everythingdepends on the HolySpirit, you see. Whichof coursethe Holy Spirit guidesthe Church,

OurLord said that. This part's all right. llow,what they haveto do is take all the other things in the Church,too, andnot concentrateon one thing andleave the othersout. Therejs a lot of the emotjonalismin it.

If one isn't accustomedto it, it cou'ldbe almost...somepriests I've heard describeit, they say it could be a Holy Roller meeting,you know,this type of this emotionalthing. NowI wouldn'tsay that, but I knowthere is that charismatjc,that emotionalthing in it. Andthere's somevery emminent

peop'lewho belong to it. Oneof the leadersjn the Churchin that is the cardinalof Belgium,Cardinal Suenens. But they havethat wayof pra'ising

and, "Praisethe Lordl" andalI this type of thing. Now,I'm not that emotional,you see.

There'sone thing aboutemotionalism: if your religion dependson emo-

tionalismand the emotjonsdie down,Vou hit rock bottom. It has, howver, its goodpoints. Not everybodyshould join the Charismaticl.'lovement. Some peop'lewouldn't fit. But someit helpsa great deal. 0M: It's a matterof personality.

SM: Correct. A great deal. Anda matterof balance. Andsome people are harmed

by it, I think. Theyjust shouldnever have jo'ined. Not everyoneshould. But PopePau'l acknowledged the Charjsmaticsas a movement.The fact that they prayedso much,this he praisedvery much. Andthey do. 0f coursethey Metzger 7B

makethings very 1ong,and they havesessions for three, four hoursand th'ings

like that- [rle11,I'm not that pious, I can't pray that long. (Chuck'les)

But that's the waythey do thesethings. It appealsto certa'inpeople. And

I've beenthrough it. AndI say, "Fine, you havea perfect right. Youcan pray any wayyou want to as long as you pray right." OM: I th'inkHecton Bencomo was involved in it. SN1: Yeah,Hector is, I think, surely. Andhe's a goodman. Theyknow that, they knowthat I'm not a Charjsmatic.I honest'lytold 'emso. I wasn't

pulling any punchesabout it. I said, "We11,I will neverjoin this," after my long yearsas a priest andeveryth'ing and so on. Th'isis a movementand

./_T!f,has its merits, but I just couldn't...it's too noisyforme and every- thing else. Andit doesa lot of goodto thosepeople. Andit brings them

closer to God,to our Lord; that's the importantthing. 01,1:Whatabout the changesi n the l'lass,the I anguagei ssue?

SM: We1'l,now,I might te11 you that beforethe VaticanCouncil started, there wasa kjnd of a movementin the Churchto havethe vernacular,as they said,

for the Mass. I nevercared much about it 'in those daysat a1'l. But whenI got to the VatjcanCouncil and there were21000 bishops voting and they made talks aboutthese things, thenyou get a viewof the wholegeneral church in the world. Andthe basic jdea wasthat this vvasparticipation in the [1ass suchas we really neverhad. Th'isis quite true. AndI votedfor the verna-

cular. NowI knewthat to mepersonally this wasa great inconvenience. Becauseafter I had beensay'ing Mass and in Latin a certain waywhen ever s'inceI wasordained for 35 years or so at that t'ime,and then to changeto the newthing, this wasvery inconvenient.But theseare things we haveto do for the generalgood. Now,of course,I don't mindanymore at all. Metzger IY

This houseright acrossthe street here,there'san elderiy lady lived there, Mrs. Freimouth-And she's passedaway since. Shewas quite cohsarVd-

tive, shewas a convert,a memberof the Cathedralparish. But she usedto comeover hereand visit Gussi€,fiV housekeeper,very often. But she came

hereonedayafter that andshe was so upsetby this. Shesaid, "Whatam I gonnado? I don't knowwhat to do." A lot of peoplewere like that. It took a lot of instructionfirst in order to make'emget usedto it. Perhaps in somecases the priest didn't instruct them suffic'ient'lyand it wasthrown at'em so quickly. Thatmay've been a mistakein somecases. But anyway,I

hadquite a long talk with her, and I told her as I saw'it. AndI said, "Now

don't just put jt asideand say, 'No, I don't wantitl Giveit a try. And I think that you will find that you'11get alongall right." Andshe went

to ltlassat the Cathedralevery Sunday,and she cameback about a year later andshe was quite pleasedwjth it. Nowthere is no questjonabout jt, thjs hasmade peop'le partic'ipate more

in the Mass. There'sno doubtabout it. Andthat's whatit shouldbe. So I think that wasa very goodthing. Nowthere are alwayspeople who do not take change. Somepeople never do. Andso you have, therefore, a group

within the Churchthat wantthe ttlassthe wayit wasalways said in the last 300years since the Councilof Trent and all that. l'lehave some of those here in the city. Theycome here and they say the Mass,as they call it, the Trident'ineMass. Thatmeans the Massas jt wasput in order by the Counc'ilof Trent. Beforlethat Masshad been said all over the world for centurjesand centuries. But at that time the Popewas Pius V; Saint Pius V, he waslater canonized.He got all thesethings togetherand coordinated it that way. Andthis is v,ihatthose people want. Andthen someof themsaid Irletzger BO

ltnafl nowthe presentPope had no authority to changewhat the other Pope did. Andthe reasonthey say that is becausein the documentthat they read,

they havea certain form, and they say, "for the perpetualmemory of thirgs,"

and so on, "wedecree thjs and that and that." Andthey thereforethjnk that one Popeputs an obligationon another. NoPope puts an obligationon anotherPope. Theya1l haveto follow the samedoctrine, of course, This is not a matterof doctrinerea'|1y, it's a matterof discipline and so on. Andthe l4assreally is not changed;the natureof the l'1ass,the essenceof it is not changedone bit. But you know,some people donrt get that through their noodles. That's wherethe problem j s.

Andno, I amnot at all unhappywith that. Nowmaybe in somecases some

people/Jre unhappy/.Some people get very upsetwith the gu'itarmasses. 0M: Yes, I wasgonna ask you aboutthem.

SM: l,rlel'l,I'm not rea11yupset with guitar masses. I really love very fine mus'icand have a choir andall thesethings. Andall that's very good. But guitar masseshave their ownmerit, andusually thoseare the youngpeople 'if and they love this very much. Theywant to do it. And they want to do it for the Lord, whynot? I maynot like someof the musicthey play, but

that's okay. That doesn'tconcern me too bad. /_f'il iust glad whenthey're throughwith that particular thing (chuckles),and you forget it. But I believereally that this hasdone a tremendouslot of goodand so on. 0h, I got all kindsof letters aboutthe guitar masses.

Pro and con?

The letters I got werecon, Irm afra'id, most of'em,when they first started

that.

I th'ink that was a big shockfor a lot of people. Metzger 8l

Sl,1:Yeah, jt wasa big shock,and they said they dfdn't havethe reverenceanymore

andall that type of thing andso on. And,wel1, thesethings a1'l haveto take

thejr route andseek their level, andyou just haveto be patient andwear it out. Andthis is whatPope Paul did. That's oneof his greatnesses,the tre- mendouspatience he had. Nowhe got thosereactions from the Churchthrough- out on manythings he did andso on. But look at all the things that he faced. AndPope Paul rea11yhad a very fine mind, beautjfulmind. Andhe hada world viewof things andhow all this hadto graduallyseek its ownlevel. In the neantime,he wasriding the crest and he got a1l kindsof brjck bats. (Chuckles) AR: In talking aboutchang'ing sentiments, I haveread in the past that manyyoung Catholicshave left the Churchbecause of the Church'sstand on the Equal

RightsAmendment and on the abortionissue. Howdo you feel aboutthe Equal R'ightsAmendment?

SM: l.lell, I donrt know. Right nowI'm very muchdoubtful about'it, frankly. I

think there oughtto be equalrights. hlhetherit shouldbe this particular

amendmentor not... It is a very controversialth'ing.

Are you familiar wjth what the amendmentsays? Yeah,I've readsome of it, andGod, I've got all thesepeop'le come up here,

womencome upr our ownwomen who are against it and thosewho are for it and all of that. t,.lehear all sidesof it. I donrt knowwhether all thesethings that are sajd wouldreally happen.They predict all kindsof disasterous situatjons. But I don't know,this is so po1itical, very political. That's whatit has become.But there oughtto be moreequality, there's no question aboutthat. ldhetherthjs is the best wayto do it, the waythat's worded,I don't know. Someof the lawyers,constitutional lawyers, SdV it wouldn'tbe good. Andagain others say, well, flo, they see no problemwith it. So I It'letzger 82

rea1ly havenot goneout on a limb to makeany pubfic statementon that. There

is a division of opinionamong our Catholicwomen about that, qu'ite. Someare

very muchforit andsome are againstit. Theyway it looks right now,I doubt that they'11get it through. AndI don't knowwhat happened, but something happened.Look, they got so manystates to ratify that, andgogh, al'l of a suddenit stopped.

AR: I hadread that the CatholjcChurch was contributing quite a bif of moneyto the anti-Equa1Rights Amendment groups; and that thesewomen, tlle pro-EM women,are blamingthe CatholicChunch for jnterfering andpropagandizing it.

St{: I don't know. I don't think that's correct. I don't think the Catholic Churchwould give anything,any money for this. I doubtthat very much. I knowI've neverbeen asked for any. I'lhatI meanby that is, that if there

is a movementof, thjs kind, they usuallyask a diocese,don't you see? No, I think that's exaggerated.

AR: Doesthe Cathol'icChurch g'ive any moneytowards the anti-abortion movement? SM: For the anti-abort'ionmovement, yes. Nowthat is a strictly moral'issue. That's an entire1yd'ifferent category. Yeah,that's right, it is. That's not

anymorepolitical, that wasa very serioussituation whenthat thing happened.

It wasunfortunate, I think. Nowit's a questionof basicallywhether abortion is murderor not, will they be tak'inga humanljfe. That's whatit all rests on. AR: Andyou donrt think the Churchwill changejt's stand? SM: TheChurch will neverchange that, no. 0h, never,never, never. That wasone of the th'ingsthat shockedme in our modernday. I neverthought we wouldhave th'is k'indof situat'ionjn our country,and that of all peoplethe SupremeCourt

woulddo this type of thing.

So you donrt think it's the woman'sright to determinewhether or not she wants Metzger UJ

to carry the baby?

SM: No, she has an obligation. Youmean to destroy the baby? AR: f"t,J SM: No. Now,there's a question. You're taking a humanlife? Yes?Definitely not.

AR: Evenin the case of raPe?

SM: Nowin the case of rape... Qncethere has beenconception, then it is a fiving

thing, the organismis. You're never allowed to take that directly, a human

life. But I bel'ievewhat they havedone frequently in case of rape, they have

performedI think what they usedto call a . Namely,they would scrapethe wombbecause the conceptiontakes place only after a certain time' andthey do that immediately.lale11, that's okay. But again,Vou do not destroy a humanbeing.

AR: Well, this leadsme to ask thenabout contraception. l'tlill the Churchchange its standon contraception?

SM: No. No, I don't th'inkso. NowPope Paul got an awful lot of static on that.

That is, now,art'ificial b'irth control, as they call it, useof contraceptives. Andhe, however,took the stand that the Churchhad always taken. Andyou know,

one thing you haveto rememberis that famousletter that they call Humanae Vjtae'in whichthere's this onelittle item. That's the thing that people a'lwayspick out. This is a letter on the valueof humanlife. Youhave to study the wholething, for that matter. Andthat's gonnabe a great document

someday.And it is true. Hesaid there, V€s, he took the traditional stand that we had. And I knowthat he has beenvery bitterly attacked, he has been attackedby Cathoficpeople, by priests, someof them(l don't knowof any bishopattacked hjm), andthey hada so-calledcommjttee and all that type of thing. But you know,there is an elementin the Churchthat peopledon't ever Metzger B4

realize that we believejn with faith; there is somethinglike divine guidance.

Youcan call a committeetogether, a wholebunch of guys, and they tel1 you

this andte11 you that. Thereis also the guidanceof the HolySpirit, what 'is right. Andwhen the Popeteaches that with that authority, he has guidance.

Nowall I knowabout Pope Paul /i-V* what he personallysaid aboutit one t'ime. A friend of minewho is a bishopin the Churchhas beenin Rome'and whenhe issuedthat letter, whythe theologiansrose up andeverythfng else aboutit, some300 theologians and so on. Andwhen th'is bjshopcame to see

PopePau1, he said, "Youknow, I'm so sorry aboutall this' but I prayedand everythinge1se. I did whatI thoughtwas the right thing to do." Hesaid,

"l realize this 'is a hardsh'ip."As a matterof fact, if you read the whole letter, there's a lot of sympathyand compassjon in that letter. Peoplehave 'it, --even neverread probably,lan.{7 they're criticizing it aboutthis. But he said, "Myconscience is at peace." Nowthose are the wordsof the Pope himself. Andalso, someof the contracept'ivesare not exactly the best thing to take evidently, fromwhat we read, med'ica'|1y.Time js provingthat. So

maybein the long run, long after PopePaul is gone,they maysay, "Well, Vou know,that Popewasn't so stup'idafter all." But the letter, the Humanae Vitae, it's 10 yearsago that it was'issued. Andjust aboutthe tenth anni- versaryof it, that's whenhe djed. Andhe took all that, everythinge1se, and he bore jt patiently.

Youwere talking aboutchanging attitudes in the Church,and one of the things

that's comingup nowis womenwho want to be part of the priesthodd.

SM: 0h, yes.

SJ: What ideas do you have about that?

SM: Well, I don't thjnk they should. That's a questjon that's being arguedand Metzger 85

discussedand so on. 1n-nus{ Not going'intoany theologyor anything,maybe the Churchwill change. I don't see howthey couldvery well. Nowpeople base a lot of things on socj- ology. In the time of Christ the womenweren't rated very high andall that. Theseare not the reasonsthat are given for it. But recently there wasa documentissued to that effect, and they said no, they werenot ordaining women,they shouldnot be ordained. Nowdo you know...letme put oneangle aboutthat. A lot of peop'lesay,"That means therefore that womenare only second-ratemembers of the Church,"arrdaTl this type of thing. That doesn't enter into it at all. Youknow who Mother Theresa is? FamousMother in India that doesall the work for the poor? Youknow. 0M: Yes.

SM: Well, shewas here in El Pasosome time ago, abouta year or so ago, and she

wastalking to someSisters, someof our local Sisters. Andthis question cameup. Andi wasvery muchamused at the wayshe djd it. She'sa very simplewoman, a very ho'lywoman. Very great woman,too-- no doubtone of the

real1y great spiritual peoplejn the Churchtoday. Andwhat she said to those nunswas veny interesting. Shesaid, "I knowyou're bringingup that question." Shesaid, "No, I don't think that womenshould be ordajnedpriests." Shesa'id,

"Youknow, the BlessedLord d'id not ordain i':'isown mother." Hedidn't, of course. Wemust remember, Christ just wasn'ta man,he wasalso God,and

thereforehad knowledge of whathe wantedto do. Hewasn't iust a blind duffer

that wasdoing this and/sayingl, "This is the wayit's gonnabe, now.rrAnd he musthave had in mindwhat he wantedto be the rule for the priesthoodand for the churchand what he wasdoing,and he waslaying the foundations. "We11, Metzger B6

now,"she said, "he did not ordain her." Andof course,the Churcha'lways followedthat apostolictradjtion. It comesdown from the apostles. And

to us, whenthere is an apostofictradition, this is practically a revelation, andwe can't do muchabout that. Andthjs basically, to sumit up in a few words,'iswhat rea1ly the Popesaid in the...they said in the document,which he did not issue himselfbut he approvedof it. It comesfrom the Sacred Congregationof the Doctrineof the Fajth.

Andshe said, "Somewomen think that this is a kind of insult, that they

are not worthyof this." Shesaid, "Andthat's the waythe Lordwanted it." Andshe saidn"You know, after all, our Lordcame into the world througha woman,and there's nobodyelse coulddo that." Whichof courseis very true.

Andshe says, "Sheis the highestcreature." Andit's true. Nextto the Lordhimself, jt's his ownmother. Andshe said, "Now,women are not inferior, but weare different." Nowthat's the wayshe talked aboutthat andcerta'inly

froma matter, rea1ly, of fajth.

But nowthey bring in sociologicalthings andall of that, andthey sti11 wantyoutoleavethe thing open.The Holy Fatherhasn't said anymore about jt.

Hehasn't told anybodyto shut up aboutjt or anything,they're still talking aboutit. I don't think'it'll happen. It doesn't seem,though, that the Churchopen'ly encourages women to become

Ieaders in the Church.

SM: 0h, yes, it sure doesl It open'lydoes. They ve their leadersh'ipvery much

in the Church. But whatyou meanis, to be in ositions of authority. Is that whatyou mean?

AR: .lYes SM: WelI , moreand more,there are people involved n these Romancongregatjons and Metzger 87 L I al I of that, re1igious womenarnd so on. Mucrrm[re. Ohr]eS. ThePope made that very c1ear, that womenhad d a very special in that, especiallyin ftace moderntimes, and that they shoould be giventhelonnontunity to use it. So it's

not any reflection on womanhoodd. Not at all. not the point. That's what [t's Motherwas trying to te11 them.. Sheis quite a great 1ady. 0h, yes, I know priests. somenuns here that wantto beccome I 0M: Havethey cometo you at any tii me?

SM: 0h, they'veso told me,yes. AAnd I said, "WhV you want to becomepriests?" fo Andthey said, "Well, I'd l ike to say f'lass,I'dllike to give absolution and con-

fession." "Wellr"I said, "sure isn't a darn thirrhgI can do aboutit." (Chuckles) But there is onething aboutit, now. TheEspiscopalians have done that,

and I noticed howthe bishopsand the LambethConference or whateverthey call it in Englandhave adopted the ordjnationof women.But golly, it's causing 'em so manyproblems in the Episcopa'lianChurch, too. There'remany of /1,lng7 simplydo not believein that. t^lell,you havea caseright here in town. Are

either of you Episcopalians? No? lolel1, FatherGrubb, do you knowFather Grubb?He's at St. Alban's. Hesays, "No, it's al1 wrong." As a matterof fact, whenthey ordajnedthe lady herein St. Clement's,he hadan ad in the paper. Theyhad a public serviceof reparation,practical'ly, in St. Alban's Church. I knowFather Grubb quite well. Hewas a very close friend of I'lsgr. Burke. But that's the waythose things are. Youknow, you canalways talk about the Church;you haveto be open,open, open, open, open, open a"l1 the time. But there's also a limit to things. There'ssomething that comesto mind,some films that I've seentalking about womenin the Church. AndI haveread and haveheard that in countrieslike Metzger 8B

Ireland and Mex'ico,that these peopleindeed venerate ltlary rnore than they

do Jesus.

SM: Now,1ook, there maybe someCatholics who forget aboutJesus. Andnow, if you understandthis right, they go together. Itrs the wayit shouldbe. Marywith- out Jesusin nothing. Doesn'tamount to anything. It's on accountof himthat she's beinghonored. So if they havethe right understandingof the faith, they wouldn'tbe do'ingthat. Andthey mayhave some wrong ideas, this is quite true. Andas a matterof fact, the Churchhas often issueddirectives andsaid that the devotionto Maryas the motherof Godshould be properly directed and

understood.Now if somebody,for instance,as you say, worsh'ips...worshipis

the wordthat you use only for God,for the Diety. But they pray to Mary, the motherof God,and forget aboutour BlessedLord, it's perfectly ridiculous.

Just doesn'twork. Nowit maybe that in their simpleemotion, ways, after

all, it's easier to understandthat than to understandall aboutChrist. So maybethat's wheresome of the errors might comefrom. They're not properly instructed. That's their problem. That's not the waythe Churchworks.

But the Churchhas always had a great... Youcan go right downto the catacombs'in Romewhere the Christian churchwas underground for 300yearst andyou can seesome of the old fescoesstill, just bareremains of'em. And there's alwaysthat the motherof Godis the onewho gave birth to Christ. Andthat is of coursea mystery. All theseare the mysteriesof faith.

SJ: Is there a large populationof BlackCatholics in El Paso? 'large, SM: Not very no.

SJ: Wereyou awareof any conflict betweenthe Angloand the l4exicanAmerican popu- lation andthe BlackCathol'ic popu'lation here? l,rlasthere ever any trouble? Youwere talking aboutprejudice toward ltlexican Americans by the Anglo, but I Metzger B9

wonderedif there wasany prejudiceon the part of both MexicanAmerjcans and

Anglosagainst the BlackCatholics.

SM: Yes, I th'inkthere vlassome. i think there was. However,this is very inter- esting. Wehave always had Black children in the parochialschools. Nowof

courseone could say, "l,le1'l, it's only a tokenj'because there arqn't very many. Supposingthat you hadhalf; nowthat could be different, I don't know. But nowwe are in the field of just supposingsomething. But the fact of the

matter is that we'vealways haO lB'lacfi kiAs in our parochialschools. Onetime backjn the days, however,one went to Loretto, and this l'ittle girl wasa child of an officer. Andso the headof Loretto Academycame down to seeme, andshe thought that thesewomen wouldn't l'ike that, mothersof

thosestudents. Shesa jd, "l^lhat'llI do? ShalI I take the child?" I said,

"By a1l means.And if any of'em say anything,you te1'l 'emto comedown and seeme, and I'11 throw a tea party for 'emand expla'in it." I neverhad any

problem. (Chuckles)But there is that...yes, there is that fee'ling. Now someof the l{exicanpeople were rather prejud'icedin someways because the Blackpeople here went to everyCatholic chur"ch. l,rle really didn't haveenough

Elackpeople to forma Blackchurch, a parish, andso they wentto l.'lasswher-

ever they were. And I understandthat downin someof the churcheshere, our Mexicanpeop'le didn't like that. Oneof the priests told methat. "I^Jell,now,"

I said, "1ook. Isn't humannature quite something?Now they are victims of prejudice,and now they shouldbe a ljttle kinderto others,too." Isn't that ri ght? 0M: Humannature beingwhat it is, you alwayswant to harasssomebody else. SIt'l: I guessthat's it. But there wasnever any troub'le. Neverhad any trouble at all. Metzger 90

SJ: No blockingof the peoplefrom the churchesor anything'tikethat.

SM: No; oh no, never, never, Andalso they wereamazed here whenthe SupremeCourt

gavethe, YOUknow, the schooldecision and all of that. Andthe newspapersat

that time, I think, called meabout it. AndI said, "t^Jell,I'm not /going tt makea great dea'lof that. t,r|e'vealways had it." Theydidn't beljeve it. I

told them,"Yes. Irle'vehad lB-lacp children in our parochialschools." There wasneven any troub'le. That little caseabout Loretto, I think the headof Lorettowas just a ljttle bit frightened. Shecame from St. Louisand she didn't knowhow to figure out whatthe El Pasopeople would think.

0M: Whatyear wasthat? That wasbefore the SupremeCourt case? SM: 0h, yes; long before,long before,yes.

0M: Soal1 a'longthere wasintegrat'ion withjn the Catholjcschools 1oca1'ly. SM: Yes,definitely, definitely. Andalso for the Blackpeople here, you know that they could go to theatersand all of that sort of thing. That happened

during the time of MayorSeits'inger when that wasbeing promoted. And Father Burkehelped meagreat deal with that. AndI wrotea letter to the city coun- ci1, to the mayor,that they shouldpass this. 0M: Theordinance.

Sl4: Yes. Oneof the reasonswhy Ted Bender is sucha very close friend of mineis,

whenhe sawthat letter, he said, "I madeup mymind I wasgonna vote for it, no matter whereI was." Andhe wasout in SanDiego or somewhereon a vacation whenthis thing cameup for a vote. Hetold mehjmself. Theneeded him, andhe flew all the wayfrom San Diego to vote for that ordinance. Andhe sa'id, "I give you a letter of credit for doingit." Hetells methat. 0M: Whatdid you say in the letter? SM: I don't rememberwhat I said exactly, but I said that this shouldbe done,this Metzger 9t

was the democratic thinq to do. The letter is on file somewhere.It's a lonq t'imeago.

OM: This wasin '62, somewherearound there? SM: Probably. But I recommendedit and sajd I thoughtthis wasthe properthing to do in thesedays. NowRalph Se'itsinger djdn't vote. 0M: He was they mayor?

Sft'l:He was the mayor. NowI knowRalph Seitsinger very we1], he's a goodman. I don't think Ralphmaybe understood it too weJl, and he got badadvice somewhere.

Somebodyto]d him, "Nowyou better keephands off." Nowthe Blackpeople have neverforgiven him for that. They'vealways mentjoned that abouthim. 0M: Hadyou been'involvedin this'issue beforehand,of promotingintegration 1ocal1y?

SM: We11,only to that extent, yes. Integrationin a sense. 0h, yes, Vouhave to havethat sort of thi ng. 014: Is there anythingelse that you wouldlike to add, Bishop?

SM: No. I will tell you, I think myconscience has been picked and examinedas it neverhas beenbefore. (Chuckles)

0M: l^lewant to thankyou very muchfor this very enjoyablejnterview. l,le've learneda great deal. Thankyou.